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HARVARD COLLEGE
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GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
PART 1
HEARINGS
BEFOBB THB
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICM ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OJF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
WASHINGTON, D. C, NOVEMBER 12, 13, AND 14, 1956
YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 3 AND 4, 1956
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., DECEMBER 5, 6, 7, AND 8, 1956
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF., DECEMBER 11, 1956
SEATTLE, WASH., DECEMBER 13 AND 14, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
Harvard college liukary
deposited by the
united states govcrnment
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
PART 1
Since these hearings are consecutively paged
they are arranged hy page nimiber instead of
alphabetically by title.
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICM ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
WASHINGTON, D. C. NOVEMBER 12, 13, AND 14, 1956
YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 3 AND 4, 1956
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., DECEMBER 5, 6, 7, AND 8, 1956
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF., DECEMBER 11, 1956
SEATTLE, WASH., DECEMBER 13 AND 14, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
85333 WASHINGTON : 195T
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
PART 1
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICM ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
WASHINGTON, D. C. NOVEMBER 12, 13, AND 14, 1956
YOUNG STOWN, OHIO, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 3 AND 4, 1956
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., DECEMBER 5, 6, 7, AND 8, 1956
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF., DECEMBER 11, 1956
SEATTLE, WASH., DECEMBER 13 AND 14, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
85333 WASHINGTON : 1957
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representai;ives
FRANCIS B. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
JAMES B. FRAZIER, JK., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
BDWIN B. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Oliio
Richard Arens, Director
II
'V
CONTENTS
[Where possible, documents referred to during the proceedings are reproduced
in the Appendix, Part 2, of this series]
Washington, D. C, November 12, 1956: Testimony of— Pae*
Archibald B. Roosevelt and Zygmund Dobbs 6142
Abner Green 61 54^
Afternoon session:
Abner Green (resumed) 6173
John Lautner 6178
Abner Green (resumed) 6179
Harriet Barron 6185
John Lautner (resumed) 6188
Harriet Barron (resumed) 6188
John Lautner (resumed) 6188
Harriet Barron (resumed) 6189
Albert L. Colloms 6195
George B. Murphy, Jr 6203
Dorothy Funn Swan 6218
Dorothy S. Strange 6221
November 13, 1956: Testimony of —
John Lautner (resumed) 6225
Charles Musil 623^
Irving Xovick 6238
John Lautner (resumed) 6240
Irving Novick (resumed) 6241
Carl Marzani 6247
Afternoon session:
Frank Ilchuk 6256
Frances MacKinnon Damon (Frances Damon Williams) 6263
Russ (Russell) Nixon 6274
Emma Louise Mallv 6280
Hugh Mulzac 6286
Alec Jones 6292
Belle Bailynson 6298
Mona Schneider Jones 6303
November 14, 1956: Testimony of —
Sol Rotenberg 6307
Hugo Gellert 632&
Constantine Ossip 6332
John Lautner (resumed) 6338
Afternoon session:
Jeanette Stern Turner 6340
A. Harry Levitan 6349^
Herman Thomas 6350
A. Harry Levitan (resumed) 6350
Herman Thomas (resumed) 6352
A. Harry Levitan (resumed) 6352
Nina Parris 6363
Ruth E. Hillsgrove 636&
Frances Gabow 6371
Herman Thomas (resumed) 6372
Frances Gabow (resumed) 637;i
Youngstown, Ohio, November 28, 1956: Testimony of —
Elsie Zazrivy 6377
Donald T. Appell 6386
Elsie Zazrivy (resumed) 638&
M. Y. Steinberg 6391
Evelyn Abelson 6397
Afternoon session:
Bessie Steinberg 64 14-
Hymen Schlesinger 6424
Joseph Rudiak .... 6434
Allan D. McNeil 6441
ni
IV CONTENTS
Chicago, 111., Decembers, 1956: Testimony of: Page
Saul Grossman '6460
Stephen J. Schemanske 6488
Saul Grossman (resumed) 6489
Stephen J. Schemanske (resumed) 6490
Saul Grossman (resumed) 6491
Afternoon session
Stephen J. Schemanske (resumed) 6492
Mignon Peggy Wellman 6502
Margaret Fisliman 65 17
Charles A. Hill 6522
Stanley Nowak 6529
Dolores Storich 6543
Tillie (Carle) Rogers 6547
December 4, 1956, Testimony of:
Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr 6553
Anzelm A. Czarnowski 6562
Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr. (resumed) 6564
Anzelm A. Czarnowski (resumed) 6565
Afternoon session:
Ruth Heit 6585
Ernest DeMaio 6596
Helen Lewis 6602
Alma Foley 6607
Lucille Bartlett 6612
Alma Erikson 6615
Clarence A. Hathaway 6617
John R. Starks 6621
Los Angeles, Calif., December 5, 1956 6629
December 6, 1956: Testimony of —
Delphine Murphy Smith 6633
Stephen A. Wereb 6641
Delphine Murphy Smith (resumed) 6642
Stephen A. Wereb (resumed) 6646
Carl Brant 6651
John Uhrin 6660
Afternoon session:
Charles Gladstone 6667
Frank J. Whitley 6674
Sanford Goldner 6678
Janet Stevenson 6691
Josephine Yanez Van Leuven 6697
Anita Schneider 6699
Josephine Yanez Van Leuven (resumed) 6699
Harry Carlisle 6703
David Hyun 6711
December 7, 1956: Testimony of —
Anita Schneider (resumed) 6723
Leonard Ludel 6742
Frank Wilkinson 6747
Howard Goddard 6754
Morris Goodman . 6756
Afternoon session:
Rose Chernin Kusnitz 6763
Jerome Land 6773
Esther Shandler 6784
Marva Bovingdon 6790
Cone C. Young 6795
Anne Perpich McTernan 6799
Stephen H. Fritchman 6808
December 8, 1956: Testimony of —
Rose Chernin Kusnitz, (resumed) 6821
Marguerite Robinson 6831
Irene Terrazas 6837
Peter Hyun 6838
Lillian Doran 6847
Ethel Linn 6851
Martin Hall 6854
CONTENTS V
San Francisco, December 11, 1956: Testimony of — ' Page
Grace Partridge 6866
Louis Goldblatt 6878
Clair Jensen 6889
Afternoon session:
Aubrey Grossman 6896
William Heikkila 6914
Cleophas Brown 6920
Victor Arnautoff 6924
Seattle, Wash., December 13, 1956: Testimony of —
Burt Nelson 6939
Barbara Hartle 6943
Burt Nelson (resumed) 6943
Barbara Hartle (resumed) 6946
William A. Wheeler 6951
Barbara Hartle (resumed) 6952
Marion Kinney 69 58
Afternoon session:
liawrence Sef ton 6969
Rachmiel Forschmiedt 6971
Walter Belka 6973
Dirk De Jonge 6976
Mary Jane Tancioco 6977
James S. Fantz 6979
Myrna Anderson 6982
Sarah Hortense Lesser 6984
Ray Glover 6992
Robert Cummings 6995
Victor Todd 6999
Valerie Lee Taylor 7001
Clayton VanLydegraf 7004
Seattle, Wash., December 14, 1956: Testimony of —
Louise Hatten 7019
Julia Ruuttila 7024
Vincent Howard 7035
Norman Haaland 7037
John Daschbach 7041
Afternoon session:
Pearl Castle 7051
Barbara Hartle 7052
Pearl Castle (resumed) 7053
T-illian Rubicz 7053
John Caughlan 7056
Barbara Hartle (resumed) 7060
John Caughlan (resumed) 7060
Milford A. Sutherland 7071
Index i
1 Testimony of Wilhelnilna Loushrey (correct spelling, Wilhelmlne Lougbry) and Law-
rence Lowe on December 11, 1!>36, appears in Investigation of Communist Propaganda In
the United States, Part 3, pp. 6135-6139.
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The leg-islation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
763, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, " * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121, STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make, from time to time, investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attaclis
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any sucli chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
vn
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
• * * * * * »
RuleX
standing committees
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress ;
******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
* * * * ^ * *
RxjleXI
powers and duties of committees
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make, from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of
such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to
take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpeuas may be issued under the
signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
vm
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. 0.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
vened, pui-suant to call, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus room, Old House
Office Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter, of Pennsylvania (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Francis E. Walter,
of Pennsylvania and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director, and Donald T. Ap-
pell, investigator.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will be in order.
Today the Committee on Un-American Activities begins a series of
hearings on what may well constitute the most dangerous area of
Communist activity in the United States; a broad and devious cam-
paign of political subversion.
Subversive activities of all kinds, of course, are the essence of the
Communist program in the United States. Political subversion is one
phase of this program. It consists of the efforts of the Communist ap-
paratus to paralyze legislative and executive action designed to expose
and obstruct the Communist Party members and its adherents.
During the past years a number of laws have been enacted to
strengthen the hands of our Government to deal with communism in
the United States.
The first of these was the Smith Act. More recently we have seen
the enactment of the Internal Security Act, the Communist Control
Act, and the vital security provisions of the Immigration and Nation-
ality Act. Besides this, various committees of the Congress have been
engaged in a continuous attempt to bring to light the activities of the
Communist conspiracy and to effect practical instruments for combat-
ing them.
Against all of this, the Communists have reacted with a concerted
campaign of propaganda, infiltration, and duplicity intended to con-
vince the naive and the uninformed tJiat these weapons represent far
more of a menace to our security than the Communists themselves.
With flagrant cynicism they have invoked a broad range of humani-
tarian appeals. Their real purpose, however, is not to strengthen our
traditions but to weaken them.
6141
6142 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The legislation wliich they attack is an expression of the will of the
American people. These various laws have been open to debate, to
public scrutiny and to public appraisal. The campaign of the Com-
munists on the other hand is not open to such inspection. It seeks to
conceal its real objectives; and parades with the mask of honesty and
reasonableness so that its treachery may go undetected.
During the past months, we have heard much, from people who
should have known better, about the Soviet "new look" and the oppor-
tunities for peaceful coexistence. We have been subjected to many
learned discussions on the supposed changed nature of Soviet com-
munism. It has required a brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of
Hungarian patriots to demonstrate that^the Soviet Union and Soviet
communism are incapable of any change or melioration.
The hearings which we are opening today are the result of intensive
staff investigation extending over nearly a year. It is evident from
the information thus far available to the committee that the Com-
munist campaign has these three purposes :
First. To obstruct the work of the congressional committees and
governmental agencies responsible for dealing with the Communist
organization.
Second. To persuade the American people that the threat of com-
munism has diminished.
Third. To create, by means of hundreds of Communist fronts, a
clamor for the amendment or repeal of anti- Communist legislation.
Besides creating front organizations, the Communists have also been
able to infiltrate a number of non-Communist organizations dedicated
to genuine humanitarian purposes. They ai-e attempting to lead these,
too, toward the achievement of Communist objectives. It is, of course,
true that the fact that tlie Communist Party favors or op]:)oses par-
ticular legislation does not in itself affect the intrinsic merit of that
legislation. But it is equally true that the Communist activity in
itself does represent a grave danger regardless of the specific objective
of its concern. These hearings, I would like to point out, do not deal
with any legislative or executive programs themselves but only with
the campaign instituted b}^ the Communist Party to destroy these
programs. During the following weeks the committee will hold fur-
ther hearings in key areas throughout the Nation for the purpose of
developing additional information on this subject.
The subcommittee appointed to conduct the hearing in Washington
in this series will consist of Mr. Morgan M. Moulder, of Missouri ; Mr.
Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio ; and myself as chairman.
We will now call the first witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Archibald Eoosevelt and Mr. Zygmund Dobbs.
The Chairman. Do you and each of you swear that the testimony
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RoosE\'ELT. I do.
Mr. DoBBS. I do.
TESTIMONY OF AECHIBALD B. ROOSEVELT AND ZYGMUND DOBBS
Mr. Arens. Gentlemen, will you kindly identify yourselves by
name, residence, and occupation ?
Mr. RoosE^TXT. Archibald B. Eoosevelt, Cold Spring Harbor, N. Y.,
tax-exempt bond investment banker.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6143
Mr. DoBBs. I am the research director of The Alliance, Inc., New
;3rork City.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Roosevelt, may I respectfully suggest that you tell
us a vord about the organization or organizations which you repre-
sent in the hearings today ?
Mr. RoosE^^LT. I represent not only The Alliance but the American
Coalition of Patriotic Societies, which is a coalition of various patri-
otic societies, and they have requested me to represent them in this one
phase of the Communist threat and conspiracy in regard to the Immi-
gration Act.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us, if you please, sir, a word
of explanation as to The Alliance organization ?
Mr. RoosE\'ELT. There is one other organization I represent in this
matter. Congressman Walter has received a letter from the Sons of
the American Revolution headquarters, signed by Harold L. Putnam,
asking me to represent them.
Mr. Arens. You speak for The Alliance, Inc., for the American
Coalition of Patriotic Societies, and for the Sons of the American
Revolution ?
Mr. Roosevelt. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us a word, if you please, sir,
respecting The Alliance? What is the organization, when was it
founded, and what are its purposes ?
Mr. Roosevelt. The Alliance organization was founded in the sum-
mer of 1953. It? purpose is research entirely on Communist activities.
The results of our studies are given without charge insofar as we have
the money and time to do it for anybody who requests it, or to the
people we think may use it. This ranges all the way from congres-
sional and senatorial committees right down to individuals in small
towns and villages.
Necessarily it is restricted because we haven't sufficient money or
the personnel.
Do you want to know about the type of staff ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Roosevelt. We have on the staff, Mr. Dobbs, on my left, who
is the director of the staff for research. Lest you should think, or
anybody would think, that we pick and choose and discriminate, we
are discriminating only in one fact: that is, we want Americans. So
we have on our staff people of Italian descent, Polish descent — first
generation Polish and Italian — we have Jewish people, we have one
excellent American Negro, and we have a few interlopers like myself
whose family has been here quite a while.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Roosevelt, as the chairman announced in his open-
ing statement, the committee is beginning today a series of hearings
respecting the counterattack by the Communist conspiracy in the
United States against that part of the Government's program, the
work of congressional committees, to expose the Communist opera-
tions. You have announced to us privatelj^ that the particular phase
of the counterattack which has been the basis of your f^tudy and of the
work of your organizations is that phase respecting the immigration
system.
I should therefore like to inzite your attention to that subject and
let you proceed at your own pace to make your presentation to the
committee.
6144 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RoosE^'^:LT. I have here a prepared statement which I passed
in just aniinute ago.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Roose-
velt's prepared statement on behalf of these organizations be incor-
porated at this point in the record, and that Mr. Roosevelt then pro-
ceed with an oral extemporaneous summary.
The Chairman. That will be incorporated.
(The statement follows :)
Statement of Me. Archibald B. Roosevelt
stjmmabt of the research department of the alliance, inc., on their investi-
gation of forces opposing the walter-mc carran immigration act
Most people don't realize that the Kremlin has already invaded America. The
reason that most Americans are not conscious of this invasion is due to the
fact that it has been going on gradually for 39 years. The Soviet leaders have
moved entire divisions of their political army into our country unnoticed by
all except a few security-minded citizens. These Red forces are a political
army which is civilian in appearance and walk the streets of America indis-
tinguishable from the rest of the population. Their weapons of war consisting
of infiltration into government, education, finance, and communication by sub-
version, disruption, poisonous propaganda, and espionage. They are largely
an invisible enemy acting behind fronts and, therefore, difiicult to pinpoint.
Operating as a disciplined and dedicated force they insinuate themselves into
various sensitive and key areas of our society.
Armed invasions, such as those in the past decade and a half into eastern
Europe are easy to detect, especially with the example in Hungary of armed
Soviet troops in uniform attacking and massacring patriotic civilians fighting
for freedom.
Although the results of this invasion are tragic and bloody they are at least
visible and the enemy can be seen and estimated wherever he is. This visible
invasion, however, is only a sequel to a previous invasion of Hungary which
was composed of Soviet partisans posing as civilians and refugees over a period
of many years as, for example, Bela Kun in the 1920's and Rakosi, just recently
deposed. Right after World War II this hidden army of invasion, with the
aid of Soviet troops, seized political power and began killing thousands of
innocent Hungarian citizens on trumped charges or with no charges at all.
The massacre of men, women, and children according to refugees was just as
great, if not greater than the current one, even though it did not have the
dramatic accompaniment of shellfire from Russian tanks and planes. The real
invasion of Hungary began in 1917 through immigration after the Bolshevik
revolution. The invasion of America by Soviet immigrant forces began at the
same time.
If we permit the Kremlin to undermine our society by filtering in a growing
army of Red agents, posing as immigrants, how can anyone but believe that the
end result will come as a horrible massacre of patriotic Americans which will
make the Hungarian experience seem tame in comparison? After seizing control
of our Government, the Reds' first order of business would be to exterminate
large portions of our population in order permanently to subdue the American
people.
The Kremlin leaders have constantly exhorted their followers in the United
States to redouble their efforts to seize control of the United States. The cap-
ture of power by the Reds in this country would be a shortcut to world domina-
tion. The Red leaders certainly must know that today Great Britain, France,
and other European nations are second- and third-rate nations, continually de-
clining from their former position as world powers. The Kremlin gang must
know that America is the very citadel of the free nations of the world. The
difficulties they are having with their satellites must convince the Soviet leaders
that they must redouble their efforts to weaken, undermine, and finally seize
power in America. They cannot but know that as long as our Nation stands
as a symbol of freedom their strength and position in their satellites are most
dangerous, and it cannot but be obvious to the Soviet leaders that the example
of America as a free system will inevitably doom the Red tyranny wherever
it has entrenched itself.
I
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6145
The Kremlin certainly has planned to send in their toughest and most hard-
ened forces from all over the world into the United States in order to facilitate
the conquest of this country by subversion. There is evidence that more than
ever they will continue to do so.
Ever since the formation of the Communist Party in 1919 the Soviet leaders
have considered the native-born Communist as insufficient and inadequate for
the purpose of seizing power. As a result, the control of the Communist appa-
ratus has been primarily in the hands of highly-trained hard-core alien Com-
munists. To build up a successful force the Kremlin must have a two-pronged
course of action in the United States. Firstly, they need an assurance that
their foreign-born operators (the "regulars" of their invading political army)
in this country will not be deported or denaturalized. This will insure the main-
tenance of those forces which the Red strategists have filtered in through our
weak immigration barriers throughout the years.
The second requirement for the conquest of America is to make certain that
the security checks against immigrants are weak and ineffective and that there
must exist loopholes through which swarms of Red agents can enter this country
to swell the size of the subversive forces. Such a growing army of Kremlin
forces in this country accompanied by swarms of well-meaning, but ignorant,
native-born dupes would inevitably result in the seizure of power from the hands
of a careless and unconcerned American people. If the Red Moscow strategists
are blocked in their attempt to sneak more agents into the United States and if
foreign-born Reds living here are sub.iect to deportation or severe restrictions'
then the Kremlin plot is seriously crippled. The Walter-McCarran Immigration
Act provides America with the legal weapons to stop the Red immigi-ation plot
dead in its tracks.
We know of no other country on earth where the alien or naturalized citizen
has more rights or opportunity for redress than in the United States under the
Walter-McCarran immigration law. Nowhere else are such pains taken to in-
vestigate, analyze, and doublecheck the circumstances of an alien before deporta-
tion. The range of appeals are so extensive that the must extensive pains are
taken to eliminate injustice or hardship in the immigration process.
In a recent conference in Detroit, Mich., the Reds issued a "legal prospectus"
where the following estimate of immigration prerogatives enjoyed by all nations
was given :
"The foundation upon which the structure of judicial apologia rests for the
validation of oppressive anti-foreign-born legislation is the thesis that a sov-
ereign nation may exercise a plenary power over the lives of foreigners within
its borders. Historically, it is true that sovereign nations have assumed, in the
name of that sovereignty, a limitless power over foreign-born persons who seek
to enter or remain in their territory. They have excluded at will, deported with-
out ceremony, and exacted capricious conditions for the right to remain. The
liberties, privileges, and protections of their laws have been extended as a matter
of grace, not of right, to be withheld or abridged in their limitless discretion."
In the very next sentence however, the same Reds considered the United States
not entitled to this long-established concept of rights of a government with re-
spect to an alien and impudently declare : "This country, however, has neither
the moral nor the legal nor the historical right to the plenary exercise of such
power."
Incidently we never hear Communists in the United States pointing to the
Soviet Union as a model to be emulated on alien or inmiigration policies. Soviet
deportation procedures are based on the thesis that a 8-cent bullet is quick in
solving a deportation problem and is much less expensive than a trip on an
ocean liner. In fact, alien Reds who are slated for deportation to the promised
land behind the Iron Curtain fight to remain here with an amazing display of
concern.
To keep foreign-born Red agents in this country and to help bring in addi-
tional Reds from abroad became a prime task for Comnnniist leaders here.
Without alien Reds the Conmiunist movement in the United States would be
ineffective and pitifully weak. In 1923 the Communists International sitting
in Moscow, praised the Reds in America for their work defending alien Soviet
agents as follows : *
"The Workers' Party was the only political party which concerned itself with
the struggle and the Councils for the Defence of the Foreign-born Workers,
^ From the Fourth to the Fifth World Congress. Koport of the Kxocutive Cuiuniittee
of the Communist Intornational. Printed 1924, p. 77.
6146 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
which were organized by the Party, have developed into organizations that em-
brace several hundred thousand workers."
Charles E. Ruthenberg, national secretary of the Workers (Communists)
Party urged the Red delegates at the third national convention (1923) to busy
themselves in the building of Councils for Protection of Foreign Born. During
that period the official publication of American Communists declared :
"The campaign for protection of the foreign-born workers established itself
as one of major political importance for the party [Communist Party — ed.] and
the working class * * * into the campaign to organize Councils for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born must be drawn the mass of workers in America * * *." ^
The Councils for the Protection of Foreign Born were not ordinary Communist
fronts. They were organized as a Communist organization designed to facilitate
the Red invasion of America by Soviet elements disguLsed as harmless immi-
grants. They were also organized to hinder all attempts by the United States
Government to denaturalize and deport foreign-born Commimists already here.
This Communist organization later changed its name to the National Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born. It was led, controlled, and directed by
members of the Central Executive Committee of the Communist Party of the
United States. In 1932 the name of this Communist apparatus was permanently
changed to the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. The
latter name is the one that has been carried to this very day and has been the
Kremlin vehicle in attacking and undermining the Walter-McCarran immigra-
tion law as well as all other anti-Red legislation. Communist leaders in the years
past have openly boasted in their publications that the American Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born is a Communist vehicle designed to wreck our
immigration, deportation, and naturalization machinery.
The American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born is not a member-
ship organization. Its current officers and sponsors have records of helping
Communist causes which would take up hundreds of pages to enumerate. In
checking the 74 names listed on a recent letterhead of this organization our
research stafif discovered that each and every person mentioned had a record
of pro-Communist activity. Included in this list are several known Soviet agents.
The American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born throughout the
years has developed slick and tricky forms of propaganda and organization in
order to arouse foreign-born and native-born Americans to fight against the
establishment of effective security measures against the Red enemy ; one of their
techniques has been for the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born to spawn numerous Red fronts designed to appear as independent liberal
groups fighting against injustice.
A Red front set up specifically to fight the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act
and the Internal Security Act of 1950 was promoted under the name of the
National Committee To Repeal the McCarran Acts.
This organization was designed to whip up sentiment against the immigration
law although it claims to be separate and apart from the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. A quick check, however, reveals the same
familiar leftist names among the sponsors. Since the ACPFB has been so thor-
oughly exposed as a Red organization the National Committee To Repeal the
McCarran Acts was created to arouse Americans against the internal-security
laws of our country under the guise that they were dangerous to law-abiding
residents.
The main propaganda barrage by the Reds repeats the claim that deportation
proceedings against Communists (there are about 360 cases so far) i-epresents
an attack against 14 million foreign-born residents. Communist propagandists
even stretch anti-Red legislation as to endangering all native-born Americans.
This propaganda line makes it appear that restrictions against a few Commu-
nists will snowball into a threat against millions of Americans.
It is amazing how numerous citizens fall for the Communist claim that an
attack against the Reds is an attack again.st all Americans. When a number of
pro-Nazi were deported from our shores a few years ago there was no outcry
Hint deportation of these totalitarians represented a blow against the liberty.
When Italian Fascists were expelled from this country there was no shout that
all Americans would suffer because of this. Actually, many dangerous criminals
have been deported from our shores and no one ventured to say that this would
represent a threat against 14 million foreign born.
It seems that only Communists are given preferred rating.
"Workers Montlily, a Communist magazine, October 1925, pp. 531-538.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6147
It seems that only Commuuist tutalitariaus arouse the bleeding hearts of the
"liberals" who manage to build up the deportation of Reds into a threat against
all Americans.
Such twisted and one-sided reasoning is a phenomenon of our age.
An ordinary criminal who has either robbed a bank or killed a person can
be deported without a single protest from the single voice "do-gooders" on his
behalf. But if a Red, who is plotting to overthrow the Government and intends
to help murder thousands of people in the process, is even threatened with
deportation, then there is an organized chant by a host of clergymen, profes-
sionals, educators, and politicians springing to his defense and screaming to the
high heavens about liberty, freedom, and the Bill of Rights.
The Communist propaganda line in dealing with Red deportees classify them
either as mothers, fathers, very old, sickly, or helpless. They sidetrack the fact
that Communists are deported for subversive activity. Surely, those who have
been murdering the patriotic Hungarians with a shot in the back could also be
classed mothers, fathers, and some are even very old. In fact, there is no more
dangerous Communists in the world than the one who is old and thoroughly
indoctrinated for many years. No one raised his voice in protest against the
deportation of Nazis because they wei'e either old or were the parents of Amer-
ican-born children. Why should not all totalitarians be given equal treatment
in the eyes of right-thinking people?
The intent and design of the Walter-McCarran immigration law is to give fair
treatment, in the American tradition, to the non-Communist foreign born and
the same time restrict or evict the Red enemy that lurks within our shores. The
murderous deeds of Red agents both in civilian clothes and in uniform across
the sea are perpetrated by exactly the same kinds of Communists as exist within
the boundaries in our country. They are all cut from the same cloth.
The Red forces in this country when given the same opportunity as those in
Poland or Hungary will butcher patriotic Americans in the same cruel manner
that we have witnessed on the European mainland.
Mr. Roosevelt. I would like to start out by saying that the greatest
inspiration that the staff and myself and tho.se supporters of the
alliance has had has been two very great individuals. Senator Mc-
Carran and Congressman Walter. We feared that everything had
finished when Senator Mc( 'arran liad died, but we now find that Con-
gressman Walter is equal in stature. We also appreciate a great deal
the people on this committee.
Some years ago we started a study on the Immigration Act only
from the Communist point of view. We did not take up the quota
situation. It is too big and too complicated for us to handle. We just
have a pinpointing proposition. We do realize just in passing that
one of our Presidents once said long before the Communist menace
that the United States should not be, as he said, a "polyglot boarding
house."
Mr. Arexs. Was that President one who carried the same name as
yours ?
Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, one of them. A very different one from the
last one. After going into the McCarran-Walter Act, we began to
realize that although it seems as though it is a foreign situation, it is
all part and ]:)arcel, as you outlined ])reviously in your o]>ening state-
ment, of the entire internal security situation of the United States.
Without careful screening of immigrants, the TTnited States can be
easily taken over just the way that Hungary was.
The present revolution in Hungary is largely due to gradual ii 'mi-
gration of foreign Communists before World War II. Anyone ^ ho
reads the papers today can see the result. We want to avoid that in
the Ignited States.
Mr. Arexs. (^ould you give us a word of the technique used by The
Alliance and its research staff in d?^ elo])ing the information respect-
ing the Comnnuiist drive to destroy the immigration system?
6148 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Roosevelt. After we became interested through the efforts of
tlie committee here, and through Senator McCarran, we picked out two
of our staff who had either been employed as witnesses or directly em-
ployed in the Immigration Service of the United States. They knew
what to look for. Obviously we have not the poAver of subpena or
getting witnesses, so we have to go to the various libraries in the
country. We had quite a staff looking over the newspapers, pamphlets,
magazine, speeches, statements, and so forth. I imagine that if we
counted it up, we looked over between 30,000 and 40,000 documents in
the last 2 years. I don't mean personally. It is impossible for any
one person to do so. But our group has done this.
Out of that we extracted such material as we thought bore on this
particular matter of seeing how this conspiracy started and how it had
developed. Not only were we interested in the great people who gave
us the inspiration, but we were interested in the opposition. The
opposition line, of course, started in the Daily Worker. Then it was
picked up by the various leftwing organizations, the ADA, and par-
ticularly that Communist organization, the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. You notice that I say Communist organi-
zation. If you wish, I can prove by their oAvn statements that they are
an agenc}^ of the Communists in Russia. They make no bones about
that. Of couise, you know as well as I that the hard core — what you
might call the professional army of professional Communists, mostly
consists of foreigners, with a few Americans. It operates largely
through Communist fronts or through well-meaning individuals with
bleeding hearts, whose hearts are soft, and unfortunately so are their
heads.
When you are fighting them, the way we do — I am not talking about
a committee in Congress now — we find out that they set up a front line
of these well-meaning people just tlie way Red soldiers in real warfare
send out a screen of women and children and peasants to be shot down.
That is exactly how the Communists work in their political organiza-
tions in this country.
At first we couldn't understand why all of these other organiza-
tions, like the ADA, American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, and all the leftwing groups, were so violently opposed to the
McCarran-Walter Act, while we heard nothing from the law-enforcing
agencies or the administration explaining the purpose of the law.
There was a peculiar silence there. In fact, it was worse than
silence. The presidential candidates of both parties in the last two
elections were constantly stating that the McCarran-Walter Act should
be, as they said, liberalized, which, in effect, meant it should be an-
nulled and all the teeth taken out of it. That is undoubtedly due to
the ])ropaganda put out largely by well-meaning brain-washed men
who are very busy and do not understand what goes on under the sur-
face of the Comnumist plot.
We have various documents which prove to us a couple of things.
One, that the Communist menace at home is — notice, I said at home—
the greatest menace to our Rejniblic today. That is one of our main
theses. Two, that uni-estricted innnigration is one, if not the most
important, weapon that the international Comnuniists can be given
for the conquest of the TT^nited States. I cannot overemphasize too
nmch that this is part and parcel of their attack on the overall secu-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6149
rity problem for our Republic against both internal and external
Communists or any other totalitarian subversion.
On page 8 of a pamphlet we published on the subject of The Com-
munist Immigration Peril we stated as follows :
Soou after setting up the Communist International, Lenin, Stalin, Molotov,
et al., realized that a vital requirement for world political warfare operations
was to facilitate the immigration processes which would allow the movement
and deployment of Communist political armies from one nation to another with
a minimum of legal immigration delays.
Coupled with the plan to establish freedom of emigration was a campaign
to give unhampered rights for those foreigners already established to carry on
subversive activities. In other words, complete freedom of emigration, which
in Bolshevik language was for the "unhampered shifting of political armies"
plus a campaign against deportation, which would permit the Red agents to
operate without danger of being removed from their sector of operation.
This double-edged program became sloganized as the "Fight for political
asylum" and the "Fight against deportation for political activity." In other
words, the problem was to move Red political soldiers freely into all sectors
and to prevent those subversive aliens already entrenched from being thrown
out of the country.
In our opinion, this is what the McCarran- Walter Act has success-
fully put into legislation, the means to block such movement of foreign
Reds within the United States.
The Chaikmax. May I interrupt at this point, Mr. Roosevelt, to
point out the fact that it is the aliens who Avere subject to the deporta-
tion laws, not citizens. A lot of these lef twing organizations and pub-
lications attempt to deceive the people into believing that an American
citizen can be deported. He cannot be deported. It is the alien who
commits a felony within 5 years or two felonies thereafter, or becomes
a member of the Communist Party. I don't know what is so unrea-
sonable about that.
Mr. Roosevelt. I think even more astonishing is that this outfit —
the worst outfit, the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born — claims it exists to protect 14 million foreign born in the United
States — they always stick to that number, 14 million. They even
started out in 1928 talking about the 14 million.
I did not notice any movement on the part of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born to try to save those Russian
aliens who were in here and were kidnaped by Soviet agents. Was
there, Mr. Walter ?
The Chairman. It is very significant to note that in all of these
attacks made by certain newspaper people no mention is ever made
of the fact that over 500 drug peddlers, white slavers, felons of all
sorts, have been deported under the provisions of the Walter-McCar-
ranAct. No word is ever mentioned of that.
Mr. Roosevelt. They talk about the fact that these 14 million ])eople
are in danger. I believe Mr. Abner Green in his report for the Amer-
ican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born on December 1 1 and
12, 1954, page 9, stated that the Attoi-ney General said that under the
McCarran-Walter Act, tlio Justice Department would deport 12,000
noncitizens and denaturalize 10,000 naturalized American citizens.
So far 1 believe a little ovei' '>00 subversive aliens are up, not for depor-
tation, but onlv for lioariiias. Perhaps you could check me on that.
That is a far crv from the 10,000 and 12,000.
Incidentally', if you add 12,000 and 10,000 it makes 22,000, which
would indicate that in the opinion of Mr. Abner Green, there are 22,000
85:{;i3--rj7 -pt. i u
6150 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
aliens in here that he can depend on for Communist professional
armies. Say that there are 5,000 deluded Americans who have become
Communists, if we could get rid of those 22,000, which according to
Abner Green are on his side, not 14 million, but 22,000, a great deal of
our problems of Communist infiltration, and Communist activity here
would be solved.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Roosevelt, did the stud)' of your staff of these many
thousands of documents lead you to any conclusion with respect to the
number of fronts which the Communist conspiracy has created in front
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born for the
purpose of brain washing the American people on this one law designed
to protect us against the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Roosevelt. We know of about 100 organizations, in 15 of the
most populous States. That does not include nice organizations that
are trying to protect some group of people and are coming out for the
repeal of the act, thus aiding the Communists.
Mr. ARE^^s. Has your study revealed the existence of 100 organiza-
tions in these 15 States which have been created by the Communist
conspiracy for the purpose of destroying the safeguards of the Immi-
gration and Nationality Act?
Mr. Roosevelt. Yes. I would be glad to submit the names.
Mr. Arens. We have those, and we will go into that during the
course of this series of hearings which will take us across the continent.
Mr. Roosevelt. I would be glad to submit the names and give our
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt. Coming right on to that subject, the prime mover
of this outfit is the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, headed by Mr. Abner Green. This has a long history. It has
changed its name slightly throughout the years. It started in 1923.
In the Workers' Monthly, on page 269, we have one reference.
Mr, Arens. In the Workers' Monthly, a Communist publication.
Mr. Roosevelt. Which is a Communist magazine; April 19, 1926.
Shall I read it?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt (reading) :
Councils for Protection of Foreign Born
In fact, there is no organized resistance to their passage outside that heing
rallied under the direction of the Councils for the Protection of the Foreign Born.
These councils are springing up all over the Nation in all the large industrial
centers. They provide the necessary centers for the mobilization of all elements
anxious to blast this plot in America's employing class to divide and conquer
American labor. This mobilization must include all who toil, both foreign and
native born, under the lash of capitalist industry within the confines of the
United States. The whole working class must unite as a unit. The reply to the
attack on the foreign born must be to develop this solidarity.
I can hand this in if you wish.
Mr. Arens. If you please.
Mr. Roosevelt. The earliest record we have on the Councils for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born is in 1923. They changed their name slightly
as they went along. I have here a pamphlet called From the Fourth
to the Fifth World Congress, which is a 1923 Report of the Executive
Committee of the Communist International sitting in the Kremlin.
It is on page 77, paragraph 4. It shows that in Moscow 33 years ago
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6151
they plotted infiltration of the United States by immigration. Shall
\ read that, sir ?
Mr. Arexs. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt (reading) :
A second very important activity of the party was the tight against the ex-
ceptional hiws which the American Government is planning against the foreign-
boni vrorkers of America, who comisrise the lowest strata of the proletariat. The
Workers' Party was the only political party which concerned itself with the
stru.irgle. and the councils for the defense of the foreign-born workers, which
were organized by the party, have developed into organizations that embrace
several hundred thousand workers.
Do 3'on wish me to submit that, sir ?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt. Then I have to show further developments, a pam-
phlet which is called The Communist, a Magazine of the Theory and
Practice of Marxism-Leninism. This is the issue of January 1931.
Here is an article on page 18, from the Report of the Political Com-
mittee to the 12th Central Committee Plenum, CPUS A" (Commimist
Party, United States) "November 22, 1930." Shall I read that, sir?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt (reading) :
For Protectiox of Foreign Born
Another special field of the development of our mass contacts, of oiu* mass
work, mass organization, is the lield of the foreign-born workers who are sub-
jected to special persecutions as a part of the general capitalist offensive against
the working class. We have made some beginnings in this direction. These
begimiings in the setting up of councils for the protection of the foreign born
have been very promising. They serve as another example to the party of how
necessary it is, if we want to organize support behind the party, to organize the
struggle of the masses, to tind their immediate burning concrete needs. Hundreds
o:^ thousands of the foreign-boni workers in the United States today feel the
menace of the projected legislation for fingerprinting of the foreign born, the
menace of deportation laws, the menace in the cities of special dismissais of
foreign-born workers in order to make jobs for natives; they feel the menace of
the setting of the Negroes against the foreign born. In this field of struggle
against the discriminations against the foreign born, we have one of the im-
portant channels of mass activity in the country today. Our efforts along this
line have received resiX)nse from the masses, * * *.
Mr. Arens. In what year was that published, please, sir ?
Mr. Roosevelt. 1931. I am just tracing the history of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. I appreciate that.
Mr. Roosevelt. I have here another document entitled "The Com-
munist Party in Action," by Mr. Alex Bittelman, published by the
Workers Library Publishers, May 1934. I am quoting now from
page 9 :
Under the leadership of the Communist Party, ever larger numbers of Ameri-
can workers, native and foreign born, white and black, are participating in the
fight against the political reaction of the capitalist class, and for the defense
of workers' rights. For these struggles some special organizations have been
created, such as the International Labor Defense and the Council for the Pro-
tection of the Foreign Korn, organizations that embrace all workers, regardless
of tlieir political affiliation, a united front of the masses for the tight against
the political reaction of the ruling class and for the defense of workers' rights
under the leadership of the party.
6152 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
I want to read from another document called "Proceedings, 10th
Convention, Communist Party, New York State, May 20-23, 1938,"
page 310, paragraph 10 :
Foreign Born
Resolved, That we, 850 delegates of the 10th convention of the Communist
Party, State of New York, go on record supporting full defense of the eco-
nomic and politifiil rights of the foreign born to jobs and relief, for an end to
the deportation of foreign born, and for the reestablishment of the American
tradition of the right of asylum for political and religious refugees in the
United States. Resolved further, That we support the program of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born which fights to win full and equal
rights for the foreign born in the United States.
There is certainly no question that in 1938 the American Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born was an organic part of the Com-
munist machine.
Mr. Roosevelt. I have here Political Affairs, V. J. Jerome, editor,
a Magazine Devoted to the Theory and Practice of Marxism-Leninism,
February 1951 issue, which is devoted to a report of the 15th national
convention of the Communist Party of the United States of America.
Page 127 reads :
The Civil Rights Congress, under the able leadership of William Patterson
and Aubrey Grossman, is the logical inheritor of the ILD's record and experi-
ences, and the Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born, led by the
devoted and indefatigable Abner Green, performs invaluable service in the
fight against the Government's deportation drive. It is the duty of all progres-
sives to appreciate the need of these organization.s, help raise funds, and support
their work.
Mr. Roosevelt. Another interesting study that we made is of the
letterheads of recent letters written by the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. We made a study of those people listed
on the letterheads.
The difficulty is that it would take a couple of hundred pages to list
all of the leftwing affiliations, and in many cases open Communist
affiliations of the peo])le on the letterheads. If the committee wants
such a study, we shall be delighted to do it. There are 74 names on the
letterhead. All have a record of leftist affiliations.
Mr. Arens. We Avould be happy to have it, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt. We are accu.sed that all that we are doing is tearing
down, so if the committee would not mind it, I would like to give my
suggestions as to what should be done to help on this particular subject
of the immigration situation.
I wrote a little brochure as to what should be done, but I found out
afterwards it didn't go nearly far enough after we delved further inta
the immigration problem.
First of all, I quote from it now :
Enemies of America are leading a campaign to scuttle the new immigration
statutes so as to open the door once again to the Red hordes.
Here are some of the things that aroused Americans can do to stop thia
betrayal :
1. Individuals and organizations should solicit from Congressmen and Senators
open public support of the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act and to get prom-
ises of further plugging of loopholes against Red infiltration. Those of the law-
makers who do not support this law should be forced to stand up and be counted^
publicly.
I would like to add onto that that 1 have learned since, and I en-
tirely agree with the people who say that the Walter-McCarran Act
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6153
should be revised. It should be revised so that it is much stronger,
much more powerful, not that it should be watered down ; that it should
be tightened because Communists, like some other people, are schemers.
They started studying this long before it was even talked of in the
newspapers. They are studying now, and they have every loophole
worked out. So you have to go Ijack to the study of the law and find
out the loopholes and tighten the McCarran Act still further and revise
it so it is stronger.
2. Letters and telegrams should be sent not only to legislators, but also to
newspapers, magazines, and commentators on radio and TV. Those who oppose
our security laws should be exposed for their stand, while those who fight for
such laws should receive commendation and support.
3. This is not a partisan issue. All nonpolitical avenues such as the pulpit,
social clubs, and fraternal organizations should be aroused to back a program for
greater internal security.
Adding on to that, I think that a thorough investigation should be
made of orders given to the United States Immigration and Naturali-
zation Service. If you read Mr. Abner Green's report — incidentally,
a thorougli investigation of Mr. Abner Green should be made, among
other things why did he change his name and other relevant
matters — and see his report on page 9 of the New York City confer-
ence of 1954, of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, where he states that the Attorney General estimated they should
deport the 12,000 noncitizens and denaturalize the 10,000 citizens.
You can see the difference in what the Attorney General suggested
and what little has happened. Why the failure to enforce this law ?
I think the American public are entitled to know why there has not
been rnore enforcement of the Walter-McCarran Act, more telling of
the people throughout the United States what it means, and we should
have a very thorough investigation as to why immigration officials
were so lax, if not something worse, in allowing these frightful kid-
napings and browbeatings by Soviet agents, so that it is dangerous
for a non-Communist Russian, and it will be dangerous for a non-
Communist Hungarian of any importance to live in the United States.
They talk so much of asylum, tliese Americans for Protection of the
Foreign Born. Here are people who wanted asylum, and I never heard
Mr. Abner Green make a peep about the kidnapings.
Are there any questions ?
The Chairman. Asylum means infiltration to those people.
Mr. Roosevelt. It cloes in their case.
Mr. Arens. Thank you very much. Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Dobbs.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Roosevelt. I am sure I am ex-
pressing the sentiments of our committee when I say that we deeply
appreciate the work that your organization is doing. It is unfortunate
that more people are not doing the same tiling, and that more i^eople
are not aware of the danger or aware of how they can be imposed upon.
Just recently a resolution was adopted by a church organization in
my district — I went to the trouble of finding out where it came from —
I found it had been written in the C/ommtmist Party headquarters
in Los Angeles. I can prove it. So it just goes to show that unless
people are aware, they can be imposed upon.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Abner Green, kindly come forward.
6154 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help 3'ou God ?
Mr. Green. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ABNER GREEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH FORER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Green. My name is Abner Green. I live at 310 East 39th
Street, New York City, N. Y. As to my occupation, I decline to
answer on the ground that this committee has no authority to conduct
this inquiry and is violating my rights under the first amendment and
my privileges under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Just a minute. What trouble do you think that
you would get into if you stated your occupation ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer that for the reasons I just stated.
The Chairman. Are you ashamed of your occupation ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not at all.
The Chairman. Then state it.
Mr. Green. I decline for the reasons I have just sta,ted, sir.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing toda}', Mr. Green, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities.
Mr. Green. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. That subpena requires j-ou to produce certain letters,
leaflets, documents, and minutes, does it not ?
Mr. Green. Yes ; it does.
Mr. Arens. Are you the custodian of the minutes, documents, leaf-
lets described in the subpena which was served upon you ?
(Witness consulted his counsel. )
Mr. Green. The main difficulty in respect to what documents, min-
utes, and copies of correspondence I may have in my possession re-
volves around the description of the documents which have been
subpenaed here by this committee.
Mr. Arens. Let us read them, then. Are you, Mr. Green, the cus-
todian of letters, copies of letters, leaflets, and documents, passing
between the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
its officers and agents, and the New England Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Forer. Excuse me. The subpena describes those letters.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Are you the custodian of the documents to which
I haA^e j ust al 1 uded ?
Mr. Green. That is
Mr. Arens. Do you have letters in your possession or control?
Mr. Green. I ha^e many letters in my possession.
Mr. Arens. Passing between the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born and the Ncav England Connnittee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. That is not Avhiit the subpena directed me to produce,
Mr. Arens. The subpena directed you to produce documents de-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6155
scribed in the attachment to the subpena, and I am alluding to that
now. Do you have documents, letters, passing between the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and the New England
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. But the subpena
The Chairman. Read the subpena.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
All letters and copies of letters, and all leaflets and documents of any nature
whatsoever Incoming and outgoing passing between the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and its officers and agents, and the New England
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, the New York Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, the Eastern Pennsylvania Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born ( also known as the Philadelphia ) Committee, the Western Penn-
sylvania Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born, the Ohio Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Midwest Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born, the Michigan Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born,
the ^Minnesota Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Los Angeles
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Northern California Commit-
tee for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Northwest Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born (also known as the Washington) Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, the Oregon Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born,
their officers and agents, during the period January 1, 1953, to October 20, 1956,
designed to revise, repeal, influence the revision or repeal of the (o) Smith Act;
(ft) Internal Security Act; and (c) Immigi-ation and Nationality Act.
Do you have in your possession copies of such documents that I have
described ?
JNIr. Green. My problem is to arrive at — an attempt to arrive at — a
conclusion of correspondence designed to influence or repeal the Smith
Act, Internal Security Act, and the Immigration and Nationality Act,
and the difficulty to seek to define that term, I find difficulty in answer-
ing the question as to whether I have such documents in my possession
or control.
Mr. Arens. Do you have documents pertaining to any correspond-
ence between the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born and the other connnittees or organizations to which I have just
alluded in reading tlie attachment to your subpena ?
Mr. Green. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have them with you ?
3Ir. Green. No.
Mr. Arens. Will you produce those before the Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Green. Produce what ?
Mr. Arens. The documents to wliich we have just alluded.
Mr. Green. Perhaps I should have the record read so I know what
the allusion is to.
Tlie Chairman. You were subpenaed to bring certain documents.
Did you bring any documents at all ?
Mr. Green. No, sir.
]\Ir. Arens. Mr. Chairman, in order that the record be abundantly
clear. I respectfully request that our record at this point reveal an
excerpt, "Proceedings before the Subversive Activities Control
Board of February 10, 1956," in which this witness, Mr. Abner Green,
was interrogated witli respect to books and records of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born; in response to a particular
question pertaining to those records, the witness stated, and I quote :
They are in my sole custody as executive secretary of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
6156 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, did you appear on the date of February 10,
1956, before the Subversive Activities Control Board ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. It is a matter of public record, Mr. Arens.
Mr, Green. On the grounds which I stated previously.
The Chairman. Now I direct you to answer this question.
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer on the grounds stated previously in
opening my testimony.
The Chairman. You understand you are being asked about some-
thing that is a matter of public record, and you refuse to answer that
question ?
Mr. Green. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, so this record may be abundantly clear,
I res])ectfully suggest that here and now Mr. Green be ordered and
directed to produce forthwith the documents called for in the subpena
duces tecum which was served upon him by this committee.
The Chairman. That is not necessary. The subpena duces tecum
was properly served on him. He stated that he did not bring any
records at all. That is enough. I direct you to answer the question
that I previously asked concerning your statement before the Subver-
sive Activities Control Board.
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer on the ground that this committee
has no authority to go into this matter, and that the question violates
my rights under the first amendment, and my pri^nlege under the
fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. As to the documents called for by the subpena, in addi-
tion to the fact that tlie subpena itself is vague, I also want to state
that the demand for these documents is not only beyond the scope and
authority of the commmittee, but also a violation of my rights under
the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest at this point that
the subpena duces tecum together with attachments be incorporated
in the record.
The Chairman. That will be done.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. la-c," see appendix, pp. 7083-
Y085.)
Mr. Arens. Mr, Green, have you ever refused before a court to pro-
duce the records of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Or the Civil Eights Congress, before a court or a grand
jury ?^
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground that the question
violates my privilege under the fifth amendment to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of an article
appearing in the Washington Star, July 28, 1951, quoting Abner
Green to the effect, "I will not obey court orders to produce Civil Rights
Congress' records before a Federal grand jury." I ask you if that is
a true and correct quotation of your statement ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 2," see appendix, p. 7086.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6157
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for tlie reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Gr}':en. I decline, sir, for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I have already stated my reasons for refusing to answer
that question, and it is the same ground.
The Chairman. I did not hear you. What was the reason?
Mr. Green. That this committee does not have the authority under
its charter to investigate this matter, to go into the question of
efforts to influence Federal legislation, and that the question violates
my rights under the first amendment and my privilege under the
fifth amenchnent not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. I am not asking anything about the activities of
the organization. I am merely asking you if you are a member of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer, sir, for the reasons stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, we will have a great number of exhibits
to be used in connection with this witness' testimony. I should like to
request that the Chair order that the exhibits as offered be appro-
priately marked and incorporated in the record. It will save time.
The Chairman. Let it be understood unless there is objection to the
exhibits offered that they will be made a part of the record.
Mr. ScHERER. The witness has refused to answer the question as to
whether or not he is a member
Mr. FoRER. You mean I can object to these documents?
The Chairman. Yes. Then we will pass on it.
Mr. Scherer. The witness has just said that he refuses to answer
the question as to whether he is a member of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born because it is beyond the scope and
power of this committee to ask that question. I have a question that
there is no question about. Are you a member of the Communist
Party today ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer, sir, on the grounds stated previously
that the question is an invasion of my rights under the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, have you refused to produce the records of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born before the
Supreme Court of the State of New York ?
Mr. Green. I am sorry, I didn't get the question.
Mr. Arens. Did you in 1955 refuse to produce the records of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born before the
Supreme Court of the State of New York pursuant to an action
initiated in that State?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for tlie reasons previously stated.
Mr. AiiENS. I lay before you, Mr. Green, a copy of an article ap-
pearing in the New' York Beacon, issued by the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. It states, in effect, that an action
was initiated by the State of New York for the production of the
records of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
and the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I
ask you if that article, so far as you know, is a true and correct pres-
entation of the facts ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 3," see appendix, p. 7087.)
6158 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Who is Irving Novick ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Was Irving Novick executive secretary of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born immediately prior to your
ascendancy to that office ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, at this point
that the record include excerpts from the transcript of the hearing
before the Subversive Activities Control Board on Februai'v 10, 1956,
in which Mr. Green testified that Irving Novick was his ))redecessor
in the committee and one Marjorie Spector was an aide in that
organization.
The Chairman. Did you so testify before the Subversive Activities
Control Board ?
Mr. Green, I direct you to answer this question, the question as to
whether or not you testified that Novick preceded you as secretary for
the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born,
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, did you lead a National Conference to
Defend the Bill of Rights, December 2, 1950, in New York City ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answ^er for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, if you please, sir, to a copy of
a leaflet entitled "Fight Deportation," March 1951, issued by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, pertaining to a
National Conference to Defend the Bill of Rights, in New York City,
December 2, 3, 1950, in which the following appears :
A press conference should be held with invitations sent to the local metro-
politan press, foreign language, labor, church, community, and civic newspapers
and publications. The families of deportees — especially those going to Wash-
ington — should be present to be interviewed by the press as well as a few promi-
nent members of the community, national group, or defense committee. * * *
The families of the deportees will meet in Washington on March 27 and 28 to
protest to the President, Attorney General, Commissioner of Immigration and
Naturalization, Congressmen, and other Government officials. A program of
activity in Washington is now being organized and details will be sent to you soon.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 4a, b," see appendix, pp. 7088,-
7089.)
I ask you whether or not you participated in that conference and
outlined that program alluded to in the document before you.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Scpierer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer. I can't
see how an answer to that would incriminate him.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a
publication entitled, "The Lamp," published by the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign JBorn. It contains references to
a National Conference To Defend the Rights of Foreign Born held
in New York City on December 11 and 12, 1954, attended by partici-
pants from 16 States and the District of Columbia. It also sets forth
a schedule of tlie conferences and the program outlined by American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born for 1955. Will you
kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not that is a true
and correct representation of the conferences and program scheduled
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6159
for the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born for 1955
in which you participated ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 5," see appendix, pp. 7089-7091.)
Mr. Arens. Have you been active in the course of the last few years
in immigration matters uf any kind or character?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. What possible trouble do you think you could
get into if you admitted that you were active in trying to prevent the
deportation of anyone for anything?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I invite your attention to a bulletin issued
by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in
which is set forth, among other things, a memorial to Congress. I
should like to read certain excerpts and ask you some questions about
it.
State legislatures : The Walter-MeCarran law is Federal legislation, adopted
by the United States Congress. Tliere is, therefore, nothing that any State
or local legislature can do about the provisions of the law since only Congress
can repeal or amend it.
State and local legislatures, however, can make important contributions to
the fight to repeal or amend the Walter-McCaiTan law. This can be done by
the legislature adopting a memorial to Congress, or perhaps a special resolution
to memorialize Congress.
To summarize this : it suggests communicating with all contacts, or-
ganizations, and individuals in all communities which received this
bulletin, to contact members of State legislatures and to try within
many States legislatures to get resolutions adopted. The bulletin
says, and I shall now quote :
We enclose, as guides, copies of legislation introduced in State and local
legislatures in the past. This is intended as a guide to you, and also to help
convince State or local legislators to take action. Attached are copies of legis-
lation from —
"1. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts State Legislature.
"2. City Council of Philadelphia, Pa.
"3. New York State Assembly.
"4. New Jersey State Senate.
"5. Pennsylvania State House of Representatives."
I lay that bulletin before you and ask you what part, to your cer-
tain knowledge, the Communist conspiracy had in causing to be enacted
or introduced in these several State or city legislatures enumerated
in that bulletin, resolutions condemning the Walter-McCarran Immi-
gration and Nationality Act ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 6a-e," see appendix, pp. 7091-
7094.)
Mr. FoRER. May we have the question again ?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. FoRER. Do you want him to answer that question ?
Mr. Arens. Certainly we do. We wouldn't have posed it. To your
certain knowledge.
Mr. FoRKR. I think it is a bad question.
Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge, did the Communist con-
spiracy take a part in undertaking to persuade these various govern-
mental bodies to pass the resolutions alluded to in that bulletin ?
6160 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. FoRER. Mr. Arens, your formulation is now different from the
one that was read. Let him answer the question that was read.
Mr. Arens. The counsel's sole and exclusive prerogative is to advise
the witness on his constitutional rights.
Mr. Forer. He can only answer one question at a time.
Mr. Arens. If counsel wants to be sworn, we will have him sworn
and testify.
Mr. Green. In response to the question read, to my knowledge, none
at all.
Mr. Arens. Did you take a hand in undertaking to persuade State
legislatures, city councils, to pass such resolution ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist conspiracy at
the time you took a hand in undertaking to cause such resolutions to
be passed ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, under your direction and the direction of the Communist con-
spiracy, was active in attempting to procure such resolutions ?
Mr. Green. Is that a question ?
Mr. FoRER. Too many questions.
Mr. Green. It is not a question.
Mr. ScHERER. What was this ?
Mr. Green. It was not a question. It was a statement.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact.
Mr. Forer. Then you have about 18 different facts.
Mr. Arens. Counsel should compose
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that he be directed to answer the question. I
understood the question.
Mr. Green. I don't understand the question. I would like to have
it read.
(The reporter read the question.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. The problem arises still from the question, the fact
that it has 2 or 3 different statements of fact.
Mr. Arens. Let us be a little more specific. I lay before you now
a report by Abner Green, executive secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born to the National Conference To
Defend the Rights of Foreign Born, New York, December 1954. In
this report on page 19, we find the following :
There are today about 100 organizations in 15 States organized to work
exclusively for the defense of the rights of the foreign born. These States where
such committees function include Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New
Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Missouri,
Washington, Oregon, and California, etc.
(Document marked "Exliibit VI," appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
I lay that document before you, please, Mr. Witness
Mr. Green. Counsel will hand it to me.
Mr. Arens. I lay it before the witness, if you please, and ask you
if you made that report to the national conference.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Would you hand it to Mr. Arens, please ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6161
Mr. Akens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee the truth, as to whether or not you made the report to the na-
tional conference stating that there are today about 100 organizations
in 15 States organized in the manner outlined in this report, that you
would be supplying information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. It is possible.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, did you have a hand in the organizing of
these 100 organizations in 15 States ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a list of the 100 organizations alluded to
in your report to the National Conference To Defend the Rights of
Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
did organize 100 organizations under your auspices in 15 States, all
designed to destroy the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. Would that information be available had he pro-
duced the documents under subpena ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I notice in looking at tlie subpena that the second
paragraph was not referred to. Mr. Green, a subpena duces tecum
was served on you and you have stated that you have not brought any
of the records and giving a reason. Under section 2 or paragraph 2 of
that subpena, it is provided :
Excerpts from the minutes of all meetings of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born during the period January 1, 1953, to October 20,
1956, showing all action taken and all consideration given to proposals to revise,
repeal, and influence the revision or repeal of the (a) Smith Act, (6) Internal
Security Act, and (c) the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Did you bring the excerpts of tlie minutes mentioned in paragraph 2
of the subpena duces tecum ?
Mr. Green. In response to that, I would like to read you, Mr.
Chairman, a very brief statement.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Forer. This is his position on tlie subpena.
Tlie Chairman. Did you bring those excerpts of the minutes?
Mr. Green. As I stated in the opening of my testimony, the main
problem I faced with respect to bringing any documents with me was
the general wording of the second page of the subpena.
The Chairman. Then tlie answer is that you did not bring the
documents mentioned in paragraph 2 of the subpena duces tecum.
Mr. Green. No; because in addition to that, it is my firm conviction
that the demand for the production of these documents goes beyond
the authority of the committee, and that this committee has no autlior-
ity under is charter and is forbidden by the first amendment to inquire
into private communications not addressed to Congress dealing Avith
the influencing of public opinion for the repeal or revision of legisla-
tion. I understand so much is clear from the decisions of th& TTnited
States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, and the Su-
preme Court of tlie United States in the Rumly case.
6162 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. Now I direct you to produce the articles men-
tioned in the subpena duces tecum on the second page.
Mr. Greex. For the reasons stated, I cannot and refuse to produce
them.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, are you registered or have you ever been
registered witli the United States under the Lobbying Act?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born presently registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated,
Mr. Arens. I lay before you reproductions of certain articles ap-
pearing in issues Nos. 77, 80. 85, and 92 of the Lamp, published ac-
cording to its masthead by the American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. These articles outline a program of political ac-
tivity by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
calling upon the recipients to write their Congressmen and to par-
ticipate in various conferences and organizations, all designed to cause
the repeal or drastic amendment of the Immigration and Nationality
Act. I invite your attention to these documents and ask you whether
or not you set up the various conferences and directed the program
alluded to in these publications ?
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 7a-d,-' see appendix, pp. 7094-
7101.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I invite your attention to an article appear-
ing in the Daily Worker of July 21, 1954, under the byline of Abner
Green, executive secretary, American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, in which appears the following :
* * * All candidates for Congress should be visited in person by delegations
from their own district for the purpose of getting a commitment, if possible^
that, if elected, he will sponsor the Lehman-Celler bill or appropriate legisla-
tion to repeal or revise basically the Walter-McCarran law. * * *
I ask you if you were the author of that article.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 8," see appendix, pp. 7101, 7102.)
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Tillie Carle?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Tillie Carle was a member and in charge of the Midwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons pre\'iously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever under oath identified Tillie Carle as
a person knoAvn bj^ you to be in charge of the Midwest office of the
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green. T decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a reproduction of an article
appearing in the Lamp, more specifically, to certain committees
alluded to as having been formed by the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, including the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, the Freedom of the Press Committee
Against Deportation, the Finnish American Freedom Committee, the
Andrulis Defense Committee, the Podolski Defense Committee, the
New York Chapter of the American Yugoslav Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, and others. I ask you if that is a true and
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6163
correct reproduction of the facts with reference to the creation of
these committees?
Mr. FoRER. I think you made a mistake. You said that this said
the American Committee had established these other organizations.
Mr. Arens. Let me ask him. Did tlie American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born establish these organizations?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly look at the exhibit and tell us what
knowledge you have of the creation of those organizations alluded to
in the Lamp, the official publication of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 9," see appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you, Mr. Green, a reproduction of an article
appearing in issue No. 94 of the Lamp. It sets forth offices of sub-
ordinate units of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, and I shall read this to you :
Know Your Rights
Agents of the Justice Department are continuing their campaign of harass-
ment of foreign-born Americans. Noncitizens and naturalized citizens in large
numbers are being visited, stopped on the streets, or sent letters urging them to
come to offices of I&NS on an "official" matter. * * *
The ACPFB recommends that any person having problems arising out of for-
eign birth should contact a capable immigration or civil-rights attorney, the
ACPFB, or any of the offices listed below :
Pittsburgh : 806 Renshaw Building
Detroit : 920 Charlevoix Building
Chicago : 431 South Dearborn, room 325
Minneapolis : 302 Lumber Exchange Building
Seattle : 538 Second and Cherry Building
San Francisco : 948 Market Street, room 418
Los Angeles : 326 West Third Street, room 318
I ask you if you have knowledge of the existence of those offices
alluded to in that exhibit?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 10," see appendix, p. 7104, 7105.)
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a leaflet respect-
ing a mass protest rally held under the auspices of the Claudia Jones
Defense Committee on February 29, 1948. I ask you whether or not
this organization was created by the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Who was Ferdinand Smith?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Ferdinand Smith was a member of tlie Communist con-
spiracy, was he not ?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Who was Claudia Jones?
Mr. Greex. T decline to ansAver for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Claudia Jones was a member of tlie Comnninist con-
spiracy, was she not ?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. T observe in this leaflet which I lay before you that
among the principals to take cliarge of the meeting were Kicliai-d B.
Moore, Abner Green, executive secretary, American Connnittee for
6164 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Protection of Foreign Born; Bert Alves, Civil Rights Congress;
Muriel Draper, executive vice president, the Congress of American
Women. Were you in attendance, Mr. Green, at the rally held under
the auspices of the Claudia Jones Defense Committee alluded to in
this leaflet?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 11," see appendix, p. 7106.)
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Green, have you ever been identified with
the Freedom of the Press Committee Against Deportations ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a reproduction of an article entitled
"An Attack on Freedom of the Press," under the auspices of the Free-
dom of the Press Committee Against Deportations, regarding depor-
tation hysteria in connection with a number of persons against whom
deportation proceedings have been instituted. I ask you whether or
not you are identified with that organization ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 12a, b," see appendix, pp. 7107-
7109.)
The Chairman. What were the grounds for deportation of those
people ?
Mr. Arens. In each instance we check very carefully. They are
under the security provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
People were charged with being members of the Communist conspiracy.
Tlie Chairman. And after a hearing it was determined that they
were Communists ?
Mr. Arens. Pursuant to the provisions of the Immigration and
Nationality Act they were all given due process.
The Chairman. Do you know how long they were in the United
States?
Mr. Arens. I would be unable at this moment to say, Mr. Chairman.
I lay before you, Mr. Green, a photostatic copy of an article pub-
lished by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
reading as follows :
Defense Committees
On May 2 the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
held a highly successful banquet honoring attorneys defending the rights of non-
citizens and naturalized citizens in San Francisco and vicinity. Rev. Stephen
Fritchman was the principal speaker. * * * The Michigan Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born sponsored a conference to protect the citizenship of
foreign born Americans in Detroit on June 13. * * * A Greater Miami, Fla.,
conference to repeal the Walter-McCarran law and defend its victims was held
on June 16. " * * A Minnesota State conference to repeal the Walter-McCarran
law and defend its victims was held in Minneai>olis on June 20.
Kindly look at that article and t«ll us whether or not those con-
ferences and those organizations alluded to in the article were or-
ganized, created, inspired or controlled by the Communist conspiracy?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Were they organized or controlled by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in turn controlled by the Communist conspiracy ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6165
Mr. Green. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. Arens. Are yon a member of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of a leaflet
respecting a demand for the immediate release on bail of the four
labor leaders held on Ellis Island. They are Ferdinand Smith,
Charles Doyle, Gerhart Eisler, and John Williamson. They are de-
scribed here, one as a labor secretary of the Communist Party; an-
other as a German Communist refugee from Hitler, the other as a
leader and secretary of the National Maritime Union, another as vice
president of the United Chemical Workers CIO.
This demonstration was under the auspices, of the Ferdinand Smith
Defense Committee, Claudia Jones Defense Committee, Alex Bittel-
man Defense Committee, American Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, John Santo Defense Committee, Charles Doyle Defense
Committee and the Civil Eights Congress. I ask you if you can tell
this Committee on Un-American Activities if each of the organizations
alluded to in that leaflet is under the discipline of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born? • -
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously statisd.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 13," see appendix, p. 7110.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a reproduction of an article appearing
in Issue No, 58 of The Lamp, official publication of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, setting forth a number of or-
ganizations engaged in the defense of the foreign born, as it is de-
scribed here. It lists among others, the Finnish-American Freedom
Committee, Freedom of the Press Committee against Deportation, an
American- Yugoslav Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a
Vincent Andrulis Defense Committee, a Northwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. I invite your attention to the article,
and ask you if you have knowledge of the existence of those organi-
zations, and if so, whether or not they were created, inspired and con-
trolled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 14," see appendix, pp. 7111, 7112.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a reproduction of an article
entitled, "Organizational Developments in Fight Against Deporta-
tion," appearing in Issue No. 59 of The Lamp, the official publication
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. It refers
to the scheduling of a conference of Lithuanian-American organiza-
tions in Chicago in March 1950, Will you look at that item and tell
us whether or not you have knowledge of the existence of those organi-
zations and if so, whether or not those (jrgauizations were created and
controlled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
Mr. Arens, I lay before you another reproduction of an article
appearing in Issue No. 61, June-July 1950, of The Lamp, an official
publication of the American Committee for Protection of Fore'gu
Born, setting forth the organizational activities of the Conunittee lor
the Defense of Eulalia Figueiredo, the (\)nnnittee for tlie Defense of
Henry Podolski, the Pete Nelson Defense Committee of Everett,
AVash., the American Yugoslav Conunittee for Protection of Foreign
Born, the Sam Sweet Defense Committee, and others.
85333— 57— pt. 1—3
6166 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
I ask you to look at that article and tell us whether or not you have
knowledge of those organizations, and if so, whether or not those
organizations were created and controlled by the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 15," see appendix, pp. 7112-7114.)
Mr. Aeens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a
letter written on the letterhead of the New York Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born, signed by one Alec Jones, executive secre-
tary. I ask you whether or not you have knowledge of the existence
of that organization, and if so, whether or not it is controlled by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 16," see appendix, p. 7115.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of an article,
entitled, "Organizational Activities," appearing in Issue No. 72 of
The Lamp, in which are set forth three other organizations alluded
to as active in the fight to destroy the immigration system. One is a
New England Conference for Protection of Foreign Born. Another
is Local 8, of the International Ix)ngshoremen's and Warehousemen's
Union, Portland, Oreg., which has created a special trade-union com-
mittee and a third is the New York Trade Union Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
I ask you, please, sir, to look at this document, and tell us whether
or not you are conversant with the existence of the organizations
alluded to, and if so, whether or not they were created and are con-
trolled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
Mr. Green. I want to take exception to the statement that anyone
seeks to destroy the immigration system in this country. In my
opinion no such thing is true. In response to the question, I refuse
to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 17," see appendix, p. 7116.)
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Green, I lay before you another reproduction
of an article appearing in The Lamp, Issue No. 73, which sets forth
the existence and report of organizational activities of several organ-
izations. These include the New England Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, the Hungarian American Defense Committee, and the
Provisional Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Will you please, sir, look at this article and tell us if you have
knowledge of the existence of those organizations, and if so, were they
created and controlled by the American Conmiittee for Protection
of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 18," see appendix, p. 7117.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document en-
titled "Eeport From Washington" dated July 5, 1955. issued by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This report sets forth a statement by one James Glatis, as a person
who had testified or given information to the Department of Justice.
According to this report, James Glatis testified that he had attended
the founding conference of the New England Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born in Boston in 1950 and this report says :
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6167
,nS^^ ^^"l^ ^^ that the New England Committee was not established until May
against t^elcPFl?''''^^ testimony to fit the Justice Department's charge*
Are you aware of the existence of that report from Washington and
of that allusion to the testimony or statements of James Glatis?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 19," see appendix, p. 7118 )
Mr. Arens. This next exhibit, let the record show, is an exhibit
dated July 5, 1955. It alludes to testimony which the exhibit claims i&
raise, given m April 1950.
I again invite your attention, Mr. Green, to Issue No. 61 of The-
L/amp for June- July 1950 which appeared before the testimony of Mr
Giatis. In this issue of The Lamp, on page 2 we see reference to an.
organizational conference of the New England Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. In other words, the exhibit shows on its
face, does it not, that the New England Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born was in existence prior to the testimony of Mr. Glatis
and therefore your attempt to discredit him had no basis.
Kindly look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not you are-
aware of the existence of that organization, and if it is, and has beeni
controlled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreigit
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See "Exhibit No. 15," appendix, pp. 7112-7114.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a reproduction of page 3 of The Lamp,
Pv ^i'-f i^^''^i''^''P^'*^- ''^"'^ ^•'^^^ -^^"^ attention to an article, entitled'
• Yuditch Defense Committee." It states "a committee of represent-
atives of rank and file members of trade unions has been organized:
for the defense of Paul Yuditch * * *." The speakers at the Wani-
zational meeting included Paul Novick, editor of the Morning Frei-
heit, Carol King, general counsel of the American Committee for
foreign Born, and others.
On this page of The Lamp appears another article Avhich refers to^
230 representatives of organizations who participated in a California
conference under the auspices of the California CPFB, desi^nied to-
amend or repeal the Immigration and Nationality Act. '^
A tliird item alludes to a Michigan conference of the CPFB held'
at the Dearborn Ford Local 600 auditorium. I ask you to look at that
document and tell us whether or not you have knowledge of the exist-
ence of those organizations or conferences and if so, whether or not
those organizations or conferences were created, inspired, or^^anized
and controlled by tlie American Committee for Protection of Forei<rn
Born ? *=
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 20," see appendix p 7119 )
Mr. Green. I am sorry, I liave to again take exception to tlie state-
nient made by counsel for the committee seeking to impute some kind
of questionable activity on efforts by Americans to revise or repeal
legislation and laws of the United States Congress.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in activities designed to cause
the revision or repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act ? Are you a mem-
ber of the Communist conspiracy?
6168 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. Will you let me answer the first question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Green. The first question you asked I decline to answer for
reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do j^ou feel that you would be giving information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceding if you should tell
this committee of any efforts in which you may have been engaged
to cause tlie repeal or revision of the Immigration and Nationality
Act?
Mr. Green. It might.
Mr. iVnENs. Then I direct your attention to the exhibit in Avhich
are set forth a lunnber of organizations and I repeat the question, are
those organizations under the control of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
■; .Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the previous reasons.
Mr. Arens. Were they created b}' the American Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green. "VYill you let me answer the first question before you
ask another?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Green. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of page 3,
issue No. 72, April-May 1952, of The Lamp, official publication of the
American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. This page
contains articles referring to the Juditz Defense Committee; the
United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers ; the Ohio Provisional
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born; a New England Confer-
ence for Protection of Foreign Born; the establishment of a special
trade union committee for the defense of John Fougerouse by Local 8
of the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union in
Portland; the New York Trade Union Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born summer program ; also a Midwest Conference to Defend
the Bill of Rights and for the Defense of Foreign Born.
I invite your attention to those various organizations, appearing
on this exhibit, and ask you if you have knowledge of their existence
and if so, were they created and controlled by the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See exhibit No. 17, appendix, p. 7116.)
Mr. Arens. Now, in 1948, did the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born have a national conference dealing with what
it has termed "the rights of foreign born"?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens, I put it to you as a fact, that in that conference there
were participants representating officially the American Slav Con-
gress, the Civil Rights Congress, the Morning Freiheit, the Congress
of American Women, the Chicago Council of Soviet- American Friend-
ship, the Slovak Workers Society, the Nature Friends of America,
the National Lawyers Guild, the International Workers Order, the
Progressive Party, the Armenian Progressive League, the Jewish
Peoples Fraternal Order, the Hungarian Brotherhood, the Finnish
American Mutual Aid Society, the National Council of American-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6169
Soviet Friendship, the American-Russian Fraternal Society, tlie
Chicago Negro Labor Council, the Glos Ludowy, Narodni Glasnik,
American Peace Crusade, the National Guardian, and others.
I ask you to affirm or deny the fact that in December of 1948 all of
those organizations had a conference in Chicago for the purpose of
discussing questions pertaining to the immigration laws?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. The record will show that each of those organizations
has been cited as a Communist-controlled organization.
Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of an article (The Lamp,
issue 59, February-March 1950), the official publication of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born with reference to
citywide councils for Protection of foreign born which have been
established in New York, Cleveland, and Philadelphia. Citywide
councils. I invite your attention to this publication and ask you
whether or not you have knowledge of the existence of such citywide
councils and if so, if they were created and controlled by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green". I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to an article from (The
Lamp, issue No. 78, June- August 1953, page 2) the official publication
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. It
sets forth defense activities, "Representatives of defense committees
in seven States met in New York over the weekend of June 12th and
developed a program of action for repeal of the Walter-McCarran law
and defense of its victims.''
Allusion is also made in this document to an organization called
the Women's Committee to Free Katharine Hyndman. Still another
reference to an organization, a new one called the American Polish
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in Detroit, and another
committee, Local 37, IL"V\nj Defense Committee.
I invite your attention to that document and ask you if you have
knowledge of the existence of those organizations and if so, whether
or not to your certain knowledge they were created and controlled
by the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 21," see appendix, p. 7120.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to still another document wliich
is a reproduction of an article of The Lamp, the official publication of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign lioi-n, in which is
set forth reference to some more organizations includiii<r an East Bay
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a Chicago Labor Defense
Committee. I invite your attention to these organizations alluded to
in this document aiid ask you whether or not you know of the existence
of those organizations and if so, whether or not they were created and
controlled by the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated. _
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to another document which is
a reproduction (p. 3, The Lamp, issue No. GO, April-May 19.51) of
an official publication of the American Committee for ]i*rotection of
6170 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Foreign Born in which reference is made to the Committee for
Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born. I ask you whether or
not you have knowledge of the existence of that organization and if
so, if it is controlled and created by the American Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 22," see appendix, p. 7121.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document, which is a
reproduction of an article appearing in The Lamp, which sets forth
references to the Committee for the Freedom of Martin Young. Also,
a Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom
under the direction of Mrs. Irving Partridge, an LACPFB Defense
Committee, and Antonia Sentner Defense Committee, St. Louis, Mo.
I ask you to look at that article and tell us whether or not you have
knowledge of the existence of those organizations and if so, whether
or not they were created and controlled by the American Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Aeens. I invite your attention to a reproduction of page 2 of
the New York Beacon, issued by the New York Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, in which reference is made to a number of
organizations and literature available with regard to the Immigra-
tion and Nationality Act. There are six of these organizations. One,
the Yugoslav Committee, another the Greek Committee, another the
Ukrainian Committee, another the Finnish Committee, another the
Eose Nelson Committee, and another the Sons and Daughters Com-
mittee, which has a squib in here urging the sons and daughters to
write their Congressmen for repeal of the Immigration and Na-
tionality Act.
I ask you whether or not you have knowledge of the existence of
those organizations alluded to in the Beacon and if so, whether or
not they are controlled and were created by the American Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 23a-d," see appendix, pp. 7122-
7125.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you, Mr. Green, a photostatic copy of a
pamphlet entitled, "The Deportation Drive Versus the Bill of Rights —
The McCarran Act and the Foreign Born," which is issued by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and ask you
whether or not you were the author of that particular article?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated,
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a booklet entitled "The Walter-Mc-
Carran Law, Police State Terror Against Foreign-Born Americans,"
by Abner Green, and ask you whether or not you are the author of
that booklet?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question whether or not
you are the author of that pamphlet.
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another pamphlet entitled "In the
Shadow of Liberty," and ask you if you are the author of that?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6171
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you feel that if you answered the question it might
tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. It might, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You honestly believe that if you answered the ques-
tion whether or not you are the author of this particular publication
the chairm.an has, it might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. It might waive my rights under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Let me point out something to you in tliis booklet,
whether you wrote it or not. This is a tear jerker, about an immi-
grant, who came here 51 years ago. He thought so little of America
that in 51 years he didn't bother to become a citizen. That is true in
every one of these cases in this booklet. Mr. Arens, have you found
in your research a single case of where this organization has interceded
on behalf of anybody other than aliens who face deportation because
they are Communists?
Mr. Arens. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. Green, what is the National Women's Appeal, or what was the
National Women's Appeal ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. The National Women's Appeal was another nationwide
organization created by the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born in which they undertook to dupe women in support of
the program of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born to emasculate the immigration system ; is that correct ?
Mr. Green. Is what correct ?
Mr. Arens. Was this National Women's Appeal created by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mf. Green. I decline to answer for previously stated reasons.
Mr. Arens. I show you a check payable to the National Women's
Appeal for $25, signed by one Uta Hagen. On the back we see it is
endorsed by the National Women's Appeal and below that, still
another endorsement, the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. I lay that check before you and ask you if that re-
freshes your recollection with reference to any interlocking financial
arrangements between the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born and the National Women's Appeal ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 24," see appendix, p. 7126.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document, The Deporta-
tion Terror, a Weapon to Gag America, by Abner Green, 5 cents,
published by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, national offices, 23 West 26th Street, New York 10, N. Y. I ask
you whether you are the author of that document.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Do you honestly believe that the answer to that ques-
tion might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. It might tend to ?
Mr. Green. It might.
Mr. Scherer. Then we can draw no other conclusions than that
there were some criminal activities involved in this effort.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another document, entitled "Victims
of the Walter-McCarran Law and How They Are Defended," issued
6172 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in
which is set forth the program of the fourth annual conference to
repeal the Walter-McCarran law and defend its victims (February
27-28, 1954) and number of people who are going to speak on how
they are going to defend the victims of the Walter-McCarran law.
It lists a legal panel, a trade-union panel, a Mexican panel, women
and the family panel, a cultural panel, and other panels. The dele-
gates are to be greeted and heard according to this by a person
identified here by the name of Abner Green, executive secretary of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
I la}^ that before you and ask you whether or not you attended that
conference and whether or not you were the one that did the speaking
to the conference.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Lillian Doran ?
Mr. Green". I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter dated
June 26, 1952, which has been identified in an executive session. It
is from Abner Green, just signed "Abner," and addressed to Lillian
Doran in Los Angeles, with reference to certain activities in defense
of the foreign born and certain condemnations of stool pigeons. I
ask you if you would kindly identify that signature as your signature ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 25," see appendix, p. 7127.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another letter from Abner Green, ex-
ecutive secretary, ACPFB, to one Rose Rosenberg in Los Angeles.
This letter has been identified in executive session before the com-
mittee. It refers to bail for certain persons who were up for deporta-
tion and reference to certain legal proceedings, and I ask you whether
or not you would kindly identify that letter.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 26," see appendix, p. 7127.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another exhibit which I should like to
read. Before doing so I would like to ask you if you know a man by
the name of Bishop Walter A. Mitchell ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. This is a letter dated December 1, 1955, "Dear Rose" —
signed "Abner — Abner Green, executive secretary," on the letterhead
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Deae Kose : Could you please send us a biography of Bishop Mitchell, which
I imagine you must have.
I discussed with Joe Forer preparations for our defense this week (the
Justice Department rested its "case" on Tuesday) and it is important, from
the way Joe puts it, to have Mitchell down for live testimony rather than by
deposition.
Mitchell can testify about the work and activities of the LA committee since
he is an oflScer. He could discuss your program, conference, meeting, banquet.
It Mitchell is to testify in person, we would want to have copies of all com-
munications sent out over his signature, proceedings of conferences he attended,
a resume of meetings at which he spoke. (We would want five copies of each
piece. )
One other special thing Mitchell could do— he can be asked how come he is
honorary chairman of an organization of which the director is Rose Chernin.
(They put in a copy of your conviction from the court record as evidence on
Tuesday.) I am certain that Mitchell would make the kind of speech at that
point that would be necessary in the record.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6173
I lay that before you and ask you to identify it for the committee.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer the question.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 27," see appendix, p. 7128.)
Mr. Arens. Was Bishop Mitchell alluded to in this letter of De-
cember 1, 1955, a person who was a member of the Communist Party
or who was a person who was not a member of the Communist Party,
who was being used by the Communist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. Do you know Bishop Mitchell ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question whether or not
you know the bishop.
(Witness consults with his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I refuse for the reasons previously stated.
The Chauiman. All right.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 12: 20 p. m., Monday, November 12, 1956, the com-
mittee recessed until 2 p. m., the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1956
( Present at commencement of afternoon session : Representatives
Moulder and Scherer.)
TESTIMONY OF ABNER GREEN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, will you kindly resume the stand.
• Mr. Green, I lay before you a document published by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, entitled, "Review of the
Year 1950." I invite your attention specifically to the last page of the
document, respecting income and disbursements of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, the income indicated for the
year 1950 as $54,873.79, and the disbursements $51,621.64. Would you
kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not the itemiza-
tion of expenditures of the American Conmiittee for Protection of
Foreign Born for that year is correct?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 28a-d," see appendix, pp. 7129-
7132.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which is a reproduction of
The Lamp (No. 76, January-February 1953) published by the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. 1 invite your at-
tention to the last inige of that document which sets forth a state-
ment of income and disbursements for the year 1952, indicating a total
income of better than $48,000 and a total expenditure for that year of
approximately $45,000, and I ask you to kindly look at the last page of
this document which I have just laid before you, and tell us whether
or not that is a correct and accurate re])ro(luctiou of the exi)enditures
and income of the Amei-ican Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born for that year.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 29a-d," see appendix, pp. 7133-
7136.)
Mr. Scherer. May I ask counsel a question? Does that report in-
dicate tlie 90ui"ce of that income?
Mr. Arens. No, sir ; it does not.
6174 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER, Witness, how much of that money did you get from
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. ,
Mr. ScHEKER. Do you get any compensation directly or indirectly
from the Communist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you get any compensation either directly or in-
directly from any source across the ocean — that is, European sources?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not that I know of.
Mr. Scherer. Not that you know of? Do you mean by that that
you may get it indirectly from across the waters through the Com-
munist Party ? Is that what you mean by that answer?
Mr. Green. I don't mean that.
Mr. Scherer. What do you mean by that answer?
Mr. Green. Not to my knowledge do I get any funds for myself in
the way of supporting myself, no.
Mr. Moulder. In view of your response to his question, don't you
think you should answer the question which was propounded as to
the source of the funds?
Mr. Green. In response to counsel, sir, I would decline to answer on
the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Green, could you . tell us who is Carl
Reinstein ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In answer to the query posed by Representative Scherer,
may I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of a bank account
agreement and signature arrangement of the Communist Party, United
States of America, on which appears the signature of Carl Reinstein,
on behalf of the Communist Party. I ask you whether or not that
to your knowledge is the signature of Carl Reinstein, and whether or
not he is to your knowledge a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 30," see appendix, p. 7137.)
Mr. FoRER. I would like to object to that, as the chairman said I
could, because that doesn't indicate anything about the American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. That will come in the next exhibit. Counsel, if you will
wait a minute.
I lay before Mr. Green a photosatic copy of a check payable to the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, signed by Carl
Reinstein, with the designation "Communist Party, United States of
America." I ask you whether or not that photostatic copy is a true
and correct reproduction of a check made payable to the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born from Reinstein on behalf
of the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. FoRER. You asked a question?
Mr. Arens. Yes, there is a question outstanding.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 31," see appendix, p. 7138.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, if you please, Mr. Green, to a
letter dated May 7, 1943, of the Civil Rights Congress, with reference
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6175
to the Mimdt bill, H. R. 5352. Attached to this letter is an open letter
to Congress with a number of names of persons who joined according
to the body of the letter, in urging the recipient of the letter to write
to his Congressman to defeat the Mundt bill.
I ask you if you would kindly examine that exhibit and tell us
whether or not you participated by either your signature or your
name in the drive of the Civil Rights Congress against the Mundt
bill.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 32a-c," see appendix, pp. 7139-
7141.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Has the Civil Rights Congress to your knowledge
actually registered under the Lobbying Act, do you know ?
Mr. Green. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer. How
could it possibly incriminate him whether he has registered or not.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Green. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. My curiosity is aroused but I cannot understand how
you respond to the question of receipts of overseas money by saying
"not that I know of" and you still decline to answer the question con-
cerning all moneys here in America.
Mr. Forer. I don't think we understand the question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder, The question was asked by Congressman Scherer
Mr. Forer. Did he get any money abroad, and he said not that he
knows of,
Mr. Moulder. He refuses to answer the other question concerning
the moneys in this country.
Mr, Forer. They are different questions.
Mr. Moulder. They definitely are different questions. I cannot
understand how lie tries to defend his organization by saying, "We
received no moneys overseas."
Mr. Forer. He didn't try to defend it. He just tried to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. It appears as though it was a completely un-American
project indirectly. That is what it amounts to,
Mr, Forer, I think you are drawing implications from answers and
refusals to answer that don't belong.
Mr. Scherer. He means he doesn't know whether or not this money
he got from the Communist Party came from Russia.
Mr. Forer. Tliat is not fair for you to say what he means.
Mr. Scherer. I think I can comment. I think that is a reasonable
inference that you can draw from his testimony.
Mr. Forer. I don't think it is, Mr. Scherer. If it is a reasonable
inference, let Mr, Moulder draw his own inference. Don't you say
what he means.
Mr. Moulder. I am not drawing inferences. I was trying to bring
it out on the board and make a clean statement of it. That is the
American way of doing it.
Mr. Arens. This is a letter from tlie American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Bom: "Dear Rose," with the typewritten
6176 COR'IMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
sighature of Abner Green, executive secretaty^ and ask you whether
or not you wrote that letter.
Mr. SciiERER. ■V^^lat is the date of that letter, counsel?
Mr.FoRER. July 30, 1953.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. FoRER. I would like to object to this going into evidence, because
this looks to me like it must be the interception of some private
correspondence.
Mr. Arens. Is this your signature on here, "A-b-n-e-r" ?
Mr. FoRER. Could I have some rulings on these objections?
Mr. Moulder. I don't know about the private correspondence. It
is not confidential because it is private. If it is between husband and
wife or a sort of confession
Mr. FoRER. When he gets private correspondence, it may have been
obtained in an unlegal manner.
Mr. Arens. May I suggest that the sole and exclusive responsibility
of the counsel is to advise the witness
Mr. FoRER. Except Chairman Walter said I could object to the
introduction of exhibits.
Mr. Moulder. Of course, you can object. May I see the document?
(Mr. Arens hands document to chairman.)
Mr. Scherer. If he denies that is his signature
Mr. Forer, He didn't deny it.
Mr. Scherer. If he denies it, I will agree it should not go in the
record. He has taken the fifth amendment. He doesn't deny that
is his signature.
Mr. FoRER. There are laws against intercepting mail and this prima
facie appears to have been acquired in violation of that law.
Mr. Scherer. That is an inference on your part.
Mr. FoRER. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. I don't know how Ave got it, but it was a good thing
we got it.
Mr. FoRER. Good thing. There is nothing to it.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, you expect to be paid for your testimony
here today or receive your witness fee ?
Mr. Green. I was told I would be.
Mr. Arens. As a prerequisite to receiving your witness fee, it is
necessary to sign a voucher of the House of Representatives. I ask
you here and now in the presence of this committee to sign your name
to this document which is the voucher which will be filled out for your
witness fee.
Mr. Green. And I will get the money on the basis of this signature ?
Mr. Arens. You will receive your witness fee.
Mr. Green. Where do I sign it?
Mr. Forer. I will show you, "Payee."
(Witness signs document.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this part of
the voucher which he has just signed for his pay be incorporated in
this record so that signature may be compared with the signatures of
other documents being displayed to the witness.
Mr. Forer. After lie gets his pay on it.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6177
Mr. Moulder. The document referred to by counsel as requested will
be made a part of the record.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 33," see appendix, p. 7142.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you an original document which is dated
January 4, 1955, addressed to "Dear Evelyn,*' signed "Abner," with
the typewritten notation "Abner Green, executive secretary," and ask
you if you will kindly identify that document and identify your
signature.
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 34," see appendix, p. 7143.)
Mr. FoRER. Same objection.
Mr. Arexs. Who was the "Evelyn" whose name appears in this
letter?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I move that the exhibit that counsel for the witness
has objected to be admitted in evidence.
Mr. Moulder. I understand it was a blank voucher.
Mr. Scherer. But he has objected to it, and there is nothing in the
record showing we ar^ overruling his objection.
Mr. Moulder. Therefore, his objection will be overruled.
Mr. Arexs. Is the "Evelyn" Evelyn Abelson, of the American'
Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for i-easons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. A document entitled, "A Union Leader Framed, the
Story of Charles A. Doyle," pul^lished by tlie American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. I show it to you and ask if you
would kindly identify that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 35a-d," see appendix, pp. 7144r-
7147.)
Mr. Greex. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. When you say "the reasons previously stated," in
order to keep the record clear, were they one concise reason or were
they several reasons ?
Mr. Green. They were primai'ily that the committee has no au-
thority to go into this matter, and that tlie question or this attempt
to seciu-e my identification of the document is an invasion of my rights
under the first amendment, and my privilege under the fifth amend-
ment, not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arexs. Thus far on this record we have been directing your
attention to a number of organizations and conferences which, accord-
ing to the exhibits, were written up in the publications of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I invite your atten-
tion, Mr. Green, to a photostatic copy of an article in the Daily
Worker of New York, Monday, February 11, 1952, entitled, "Farm
Union Asks Peace and Parity," in wliicli there was, accoi-ding to the
article, a 2-day meeting of the Farmers Union eastern division, and
one of the speakers is listed here as Abner Green, who is reporting on
his committee's work.
I ask you if you will kindly tell tliis connnittee whetlier or not the-
recitations in there concerning the meeting are true and correct?
Mr. Grekx. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. MoiLDEU. May I liave the record show that the witness merely
glanced at tlie document or the exhibit that you referred to, and im-
mediate! v answered without examining it.
6178 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. I think for the record, too, there was a certain part of
that exhibit which is read and selected out for special attention which
I did see and my response went on the basis of that identification
within the record of special material which was drawn to my atten-
tion. I did not have to read the entire thing in order to make up my
mind how I would respond to the question.
Mr. ScHERER. I don't think that this witness is going to answer any
•questions. He has invoked the fifth amendment to practically every
question asked.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Green, are vou now a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Green. I decline for all of the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that in the pres-
ence of this witness another witness be sworn.
Mr. John Lautner, would you kindly come forward? Would you
raise your hand while the chairman administers the oath to you?
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ? «
Mr. Lautner. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by name, residence,
and occupation?
Mr. Lautner. My name is John Lautner, self-employed. I reside
in Cleveland, Ohio, at the present time.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Lautner. From 1929 up to January 1950.
Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, sir, just a brief thumbnail sketch
of your career in the Communist Party with particular reference to
the posts or activities which you held or in which you engaged.
Mr. Lautner. A few months after joining the Communist Party I
was sent to a national training school of the Communist Party. Upon
graduation from this training school in June 1930, I was sent as dis-
trict secretary of the Hungarian National Bureau of the Communist
Party to Michigan. After functioning there for about 7 or 8 months,
in addition to that, I was appointed to the District Control Commis-
sion of the Communist Party in Michigan.
In May 1931, I was assigned to Canada. I functioned in Canada
for about 11 months. Upon return from Canada, I was assigned to
Cleveland, Ohio, as district secretary of the Hungarian National
Bureau of the Communist Party, and as one of the editors of the Hun-
garian daily Communist paper there. I functioned there till the end
of 1932. I was reassigned to New York.
For a while I functioned there on the district language department
of the Communist Party in New York City. In 1933, in the fall, I
became a section organizer of the Communist Party in New York
City. I functioned m that capacity to April 1936. I was appointed
State secretary or district organizer of the Communist Party in the
State of West Virginia.
COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6179
I functioned in that capacity from April 1936 to the end of 1940.
Beginning with 1941, I was sent to the national training school of
the Communist Party. After graduation I was assigned to the
Nationality Groups Commission of the Communist Party and national
secretary of the Hungarian Bureau of the Communist Party. I
functioned in these capacities until November 1942^
I was drafted into the Army in 1942, in November. I was dis-
charged from the Army in June 1945. I resumed my functions on the
nationality groups commission of the Communist Party and national
secretary of the Hungarian bureau.
In 1946, I was reassigned to organize the Communist Party mem-
bership in the building trades in New York City. I functioned in
that capacity until about March 1947. For about 2 months I was
sent down to the New York waterfront as a party organizer.
Mr. ScHERER. When you say you were sent, who sent you ?
Mr. Lautner. The Communist Party, I functioned on the water-
front for a number of months and then was appointed chairman of
the New York State Keview Commission of the Communist Party.
I fmictioned in that capacity until the I7th of January 1950. In
addition to being head of the New York State Keview Commission,
also I was appointed in September 1948 a member of the National
Review Commission of the Coimnunist Party. These were the func-
tions that I held.
In addition to that, I attended national committee meetings or
central committee meetings of the Communist Party in the years
1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942, and attended the national
conventions of the Communist Party in 1936, 1938, two conventions in
1940, in 1942, 1945, and 1948.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, we expect to examine you further with
reference to certain factual material, but for the present I should like
to ask you if, during the course of your career in the Communist Party,
you knew a person by the name of Abner Green.
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in this hearing room today ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point out to the committee that per-
son whom you knew in the Communist Party as Abner Green.
Mr. Lautner. He is sitting at the table right here.
Mr. Arens. Is he the man who has just been testifying?
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point him out to the committee ?
Mr. Lautner. He is sitting at the table.
TESTIMONY OF ABNER GREEN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, you have just heard Mr. Lautner testify
under oath that while he was a member of the Communist Party he
knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Lautner lying or was he telling
the truth?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Mr. Lautner ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. May I interrupt just a minute. Counsel, and Mr.
Chairman? You heard Archibald Roosevelt testify this riiorning.
6180' COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Did Mr. Roosevelt tell the truth insofar as his testimony pertained to
you?
Mr. Green. I am sorry. I am waiting to get the record of the hear-
ings. I could not very well hear the things Mr. Koosevelt was speak-
ing of. The things that I did hear, I don't think he knew what he was
talking about.
Mr. ScHERER. Was he telling the truth or was he telling an untruth
as far as the things that you heard are concerned ?
Mr. Green. He was telling a very fanciful fantastic story which
this committee decided to listen to. I had nothing to do with that,
sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you hear any of his testimony insofar as it con-
cerned you ?
Mr. Green. I heard my name mentioned.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear his testimony with reference to you?
Mr. Greien. No.
Mr. Scherer. What pai-t of his testimony that referred to you did
you hear ?
Mr. Green- Principally the attempt to impress the committee with
some idea that there are people in the country who are seeking to
destroy the immigration laws of the United States.
Mr. Scherer. AVlien he referred to you as a Communist, was he
telling the truth or not ?
Mr. Green. I am sorry, I didn't hear him refer to me as a Com-
munist.
Mr. Scherer. If I tell you that he referred to you as a Communist,
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Green. I would decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. In what respect did Colonel Roosevelt not tell the
truth ?
Mr. Green. I didn't say he didn't tell the truth.
Mr. Scherer. You said it was fanciful. I understand fanciful to
mean not true. It is in the realm of fancy.
Mr. Green. Not necessarily a false statement in the sense as far as
he was concerned. I didn't say he deliberately lied to this committee.
I didn't accuse him of that.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't hear your answer.
Mr. Green. I didn't say Mr. Roosevelt sat here and deliberately lied
to this committee. I just believed he was incorrect.
Mr. Scherer. What part of his testimony that you heard was in-
cori'ect ?
Mr. Green. The attempt to impress the committee with some idea
that there are people seeking to destroy the immigi-ation laws of the
United States.
Mr. Scherer. You mean that there are no such people ?
Mr. Green. To the best of my knowledge there are not any such
people.
Mr. Scherer. You mean the Communist Party is not interested in
destroying at least part of our immigration law ?
Mr. Green. To the best of my knowledge, I would say "No."
Mr. Scherer. How do you know ?
Mr. Green. I would refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6181
• Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, so there Avould be no question in this
record, I would like to pose a question to Mr- Lautner, and suggest
that he be temporarily excused, and be recalled later on.
Mr. Lautner, do you here and now under oath identify the person
seated across from you there, Mr. Abner Green, as a person wlio, to
your certain knowledge was a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Lx\UTNER. Yes; he was a member of the Communist Party up
until the time I left the Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. When was that '(
Mr. Lautner. On the 17th of January 1950.
Mr. Scherer. After the Korean conflict, did you get out of the
Communist Party ? Witness, I am talking to you.
(Witness Green consults with his counsel'.)
Mr. Green. That happens to be in the nature of a rather loaded
question.
Mr. Scherer. Answer the loaded question, if you call it a loaded
question.
(Witness Green consults his counsel.)
Mr, Green. I refuse to answer the question for the reason that it
is loaded, and also for the reasons stated before.
Mr. Scherer. Did you remain in the Communist Party after the
desanctification of Stalin?
Mr, Green, I refuse to answer that question
Mr. Scherer. Did you remain in the Communist Party-
Mr. Green, Mr. Congressman, would you mind if I answer the
question. Whatever it is, I will state the answer for the record.
Mr. Scherer, You will state the fifth amendment?
Mr, Green, I am sorry if that happens to be the answer I will give,
I would refuse to answer the last question on the ground it is loaded
and also for the reasons stated previously.
Mr. Scherer. Did you stay in the Communist Party after the re-
cent atrocities performed by the Russians ?
Mr. Green. I refuse on the ground stated previously,
Mr, Scherer. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Mr. Green, I refuse to answer on the gi^ounds stated previously.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you a document entitled "Proposed Pro-
gram of Action of the 20t]i Anniversary National Conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, December 8
and 9, 1951." This proposed program of action calls for the estab-
lishment of a national committee for the protection of West Indian
Americans. It calls for the establisliment of a national committee for
protection of Mexican Americans, It calls for a campaign to repeal
the Smith and McCarran laws, and it calls for a cam])aign to visit
Congressmen at home during the holiday season and it calls for the
establishment of national trade union advisory committee.
Kindly look at that document and tell us wliether or not that docu-
ment is a true and correct reproduction of the program adopted by
the conference lield in Chicago of tlie American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Boiti.
Mr. Green, I decline to answer for all the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exliibit III,"' see appendix, pp, 8803-8316.)
Mr, Mour.DER. May we ask you this question. Were you there at
the time referred to by counsel ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 4
6182 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Did the American Committee for Protection of For-
eign Bom at that conference on December 8 and 9, 1951, decide to
establish these various committees and organizations, and to promote
the solicitation of Congressmen alluded to in that document?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for all the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a document, "Midwest
Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend the
Rights of Foreign Born. It is a letter addressed to "Dear Friend,"
signed Dr. Anton J. Carlson, with reference to certain activities of
this Midwest Conference, and ask you if you would kindly look at that
document and tell us whether or not you can identify that document ?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a magazine entitled,
"The March of Labor, Special Issue, Repeal the McCarran-Walter
Act, 40 Million Americans Threatened."
Mr. ScHERER. Before you go any further, March of Labor has been
identified by this committee as Communist ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. I ask you to kindly look at that special issue of
March of Labor, and tell the committee what part, if any, you had
in the preparation of that magazine.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 36a-c," see appendix, pp. 7148-
7150.)
Mr. ScHERER. Did we issue a report on the March of Labor?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
I lay before you still another document, signed by Abner Green,
dated June 25, 1954, to area defense committees from the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, calling upon the area
defense committees of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born to take certain action. I would ask you if you would
kindly identify that document ?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a
letter of the Citizens Emergency Defense Conference in New York
City, addressed to "Dear Friend," in which there appears a call for
funds to defend the 13 New York Smith Act defendants, and for other
action with reference to the Smith Act. On the letterhead appears
the name of a person under the executive committee, identified here as
Abner Green, and I ask you if you would kindly identify that letter
for us ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 37," see appendix, p. 7151.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another document, a photostatic copy
of a letter directed to the President of the United States, signed by a
substantial number of people, with reference to the activities of the
Department of Justice in ordering deported certain people under the
provisions of the immigration laws, and ask you if you would kindly
identify that document?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 38a, b," see appendix, pp. 7152,
7153.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6183
Mr. Arens. Are you a member, or have you been identified with
the organization recently created called the Conference for Legisla-
tion in the National Interest?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask you to direct the witness to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Mouxj)ER. The witness is so directed.
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, do you in good faith believe that the answer
to the last question of counsel with reference to membership in this
last organization would incriminate you?
Mr. Green. Yes, sir ; it might.
Mr. Scherer. Wliat is the name of that organization ?
Mr. Arens. Conference for Legislation in the National Interest.
Mr. Forer. You issued a subpena on it returnable today to the
secretary of that organization.
Mr. Scherer. We may have done that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, kindly tell us if you participated in the
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest. I lay before
you now an original document of some of the literature of that organi-
zation in which they call for the repeal of the Smitli Act, repeal
of the Subversive Activities Control Act, repeal of the Communist
Control Act, and repeal of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Kindly look at this material which has been identified in our execu-
tive sassion record, and tell this committee whether or not you are
aware of the activities, and participated in the activities of this con-
ference.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is the Conference for Legislation in the National In-
terest to your certain knowledge an organization created by the Com-
munist Party?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I have no knowledge as to whether it was so created.
Mr. Scherer. Have any Communists participated in the creation
of that organization?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you participated in the organization of that con-
ference ?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is it controlled by the Communist Party?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Arens. Have you particpated in the work of that organization ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Did you prepare the document entitled "The Walter-
McCarran Law Must Be Repealed," which was circulated by the Con-
ference for Legislation in the National Interest ?
Mr. Green. I have already seen it. I decline to answer on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
5184 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. Is that committee engaged in any illegal activity that
you know of?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not that I know of.
Mr. ScHERER. How could your answering then with reference to
membership or activities in connection with that committee possibly
incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness.
Mr. Scherer. I don't believe counsel at the beginning of your testi-
mony this morning asked when and where you were born.
Mr. Green. I was born in New York City on April 15, 1913.
Mr. Scherer. Have you lived in New York City all your life ?
Mr. Green. Yes; just about. I think I was absent possibly some
months in early 1940 when I was here in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Scherer. What name were you born under ?
Mr. Green. Under the name of Abraham Greenberg.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you live in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Green. I don't recall now, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever traveled abroad ?
Mr. Green. No, sir. I was in Canada on one occasion.
Mr. Scherer. Did you live with John Morasaka ?
Mr. Green. I rented a room from a John Morasaka when I was
here in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Scherer. Was he a member of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know whether he was a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer, on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't ask you whether he was or was not. Do you
have knowledge of the fact ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask you this question? Do you have any
knowledge or information concerning any organized effort or per-
sonal effort on the part of any person which you would consider to
be subversive or un-American or disloyal, or any concentrated effort
personally or by organizations to overthrow our present form of gov-
ernment by force and violence ?
Mr. Green. No, sir ; I don't know of any.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member now of an organization which is
dedicated to the overthrow of the Government of the United States
by force and violence ?
Mr. Green. Not to my opinion, sir.
Ml-. Arens. Is tlie Communist Party dedicated to the overthrow of
the Government by force and violence?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not that I know of; no.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions.
Mr. Scherer. What was that last question to which he answered
"Not that he knows of"?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6185
Mr. FoRER. That was not the hist question. That was tlie last
tinswer.
Mr. ScHERER. That is what I meant, not that he knows of. What
was the question ? Would you repeat that ?
Mr. Arens. The question was, "Is the Communist Party dedicated
to the overthrow of the Government by force and violence?"
Mr. Scherer. And his answer was "Not that he knows of.'"
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I have nothing further.
Mr. Moulder. I will ask this : May we change the question to say, in
your opinion, is the Communist Party dedicated to the proposition of
changing our form of government to the present form of government
•existing in the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Green. In my opinion, I would say "No," that is not so.
Mr. Arens. One parting question. Are you a Marxist ?
Mr. FoRER. What kind of question is that ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
Mr. FoRER. How do you know what that means ?
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You have made your claim
for witness fees.
( Witness excused . )
Mr. Arens. The next witness is Harriet Barron. Please remain
standing while the chairman administers an oath.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Barron. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HARRIET BARRON, ACCOMPANIED BY
JOSEPH FORER, COUNSEL
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Barron. My name is Harriet Barron. I live at 18 West 30th
Street, New York City. As to my occupation, I decline to answer on
the grounds that this inquiry violates the first amendment and also on
the basis of my privilege under the fifth amendment not to be a witness
against myself.
Mr. Moulder. As to your occupation ?
Mrs. Barron. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present
occupation?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis just stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
appearing in the New York Times of May 15, 1919, in which appears
an article respecting a drive against the North Atlantic Pact and the
Wall Street program of war, which, according to the article, was
addressed by a person by the name of Harriet Barron, identified here
as of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I ask
you kindly to look at that article and ask you whether or not you are
the person so identified?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis just stated.
6186 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Moulder. That is the person referred to in the document just
mentioned is the way the question was directed ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. She declines to answer.
Mrs. Barron. For the reason I previously stated. Would you like
it repeated ?
Mr. Moulder. I wish you would, because it is not clear.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the ground that this inquiry
violates the first amendment and also on the basis of my privilege under
the fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs. ?
Mrs. Barron. Mrs.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Barron, have you been active in the course of your
life in public affairs ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis just stated.
Mr. Arens. Have all of your activities in public affairs been of such
a nature that if you would tell this committee about them, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a crim-
inal proceeding?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Arens. Are there any activities in which you have been engaged
in your life of a public nature that you can tell this committee about
without supplying information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that on the basis stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which is a reproduction of
an organizational report which has been identified in executive session
before our committee. Harriet Barron is shown as administrative
secretary of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
making a report to the Chicago Conference of Deportee Defense Com-
mittees, June 9 and 10, 1951. I ask if you are the Harriet Barron
alluded to in this report, and if this report is a true and correct presen-
tation of the report submitted by Harriet Barron at that conference?
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer on the same basis I
have stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 39 a-c," see appendix, pp. 7154-
7156.)
Mr. Arens. I put it to you now, ma'auT, as a fact and ask you to
affirm or deny the fact that you were the administrative secretary at
the time of the Chicago conference under the auspices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Boni.
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
same basis.
Mr. Moulder. May I say the witness should be directed to answer
the question for the reason that you come on the witness stand and
immediately decline to answer, claiming the privilege of the fifth
amendment without first taking into consideration that the committee
is trying to investigate the subject. You refuse to answer any ques-
tions. I can't understand your attitude. Is it because of your com-
plete contempt of the committee and its purposes that you start out
by refusing to answer any question, or is it because you feel it truly
would incriminate you to answer questions ?
Mrs. Barron. I feel it would incriminate me to answer questions.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6187
Mr. Arens. Where were you born, Mrs. Barron?
Mrs. Barron. New York City.
Mr. Arens. And kindly give us a vrord of your personal education.
Where did you go to school ?
Mrs. Barron. It is a long time ago.
Mr. Arens. Just the highlights of your education. Did you go to
high school in New York City?
Mrs. Barron. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you go to college some place?
Mrs. Barron. No; I did not, except for evening courses at City
(yollege of the City of New York.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education ?
Mrs. Barron. When?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Barron. I am old. I forget dates.
Mr. Arens. I don't want this record to reflect in any case we have
an aged person here. I would have to take issue with you on the basis
of your appearance.
Mrs. Barron. Thank you, sir. I guess I must have graduated from
high school in 1918.
Mr. Arens. How did you receive your subpena which orders your
appearance before this committee ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer for the reason I stated above.
Mr. Arens. Your subpena was transmitted to you by Alec Jones,
secretary of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ; is that not correct ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated before.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Alec Jones ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated before.
Mr. Arens. What was your first employment after you completed
your formal education?
Mrs. Barron. I am sorry; 1918 is a long time ago, and I haven't
reviewed the history of my life for a long time.
Mr. Arens. Let us try it another way. How long have you had
your present post? How long have you been engaged in your present
office or position?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, she be ordered
to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer, not in the spirit
of threatening you, but to advise you of the danger you might be
taking in not responding to the question in that you might be cited
for contempt. It is our duty to advise you of that possibility.
Mrs. Barron. I understand that, sir, but I am afraid I shall have
to decline on the basis I previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Wliat post did you occupy immediately prior to the
post or position which you now have ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I don't remember these things. I haven't made a
survey. I haven't written my autobiography yet.
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever employed by the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. No.
G188 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScuERER. I asked you whether or not you were ever employed
by the Communist Party and was your answer "No" ?
Mrs. Barron. That is right.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated previously.
Mr. ScHERER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated previously.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green, the gentleman who pre-
ceded you on the witness stand ?
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
same basis.
Mr. Arens. Do you know John Lautner?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that on the basis previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly resume the witness
stand for just a moment?
TESTIMONY OP JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, during the course of your experience in
the Communist Party concerning which you have given the com-
mittee earlier today a brief outline, did you know a person as a
Communist by the name of Harriet Barron ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in the hearing room today ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point her out to the committee ?
Mr. Lautner. She is sitting right alongside of me.
Mr. Moulder. She is not presently on the witness stand ?
Mr. Lautner. She is not presently on the witness stand.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify the lady seated on your
right as a person wlio to your certain knowledge was a member of the
Conununist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HARRIET BARRON— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Barron, would you kindly look at the gentleman
to your left and tell this committee was he lying or telling the truth
when he just now identified you as a Communist?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that question on the basis I have
indicated previously.
Mr. Moulder. May I interrogate the witness who has identified her
as a Comnumist? What is the basis and your reasons for saying she
was a member of the (communist Party ?
TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Lautner. Transaction of party business with her.
Mr. Moulder. You should be more specific. Tell us where, when,
and so on.
Mr. Lautner. For example, the last time I recall I think it was
in 1949, Harriet I^arron came to my oifice at Communist Party head-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6189
quarters at 35 East 12th Street, on the fifth fioor. She brought a
message.
Mr, Moulder. That is tlie [xn-soii you i-eferred to here on the
witness stand ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. She brought a message from one Sam Carr, who
was at that time detained at Ellis Island. Sam Carr was involved in
the esjoionage in Canada. He Avas executive secretary of the Canadian
Communist Party. The message was to get in touch v.ith Norman
Shrank, who was the executive secretary of the Conununist Party in
Brooklyn, that Norman Shrank's either nephew or brother — I don't
know at the moment — should get rid of some kind of a package. I did
convey that message to Norman Shrank and also to Betty Gannett,
who at that time was the executive secretary of the — assistant execu-
tive secretary of the Communist Party of the United States.
Mr. Moulder. This Avitness brought this message to you 'i
Mr. Lautner. Yes, to convey it to the executive secretary out in
Brooklyn ; that is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Did you ever luive any otlier contact with her in
connection with the Communist Party activities ?
Mr. Lautner. I met her at Conununist Party meetings from time
to time, conventions, conferences, and also I was called on to the offices
of the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, on a number of
occasions, dealing with problems pertaining to party members who
were under deportation proceedings or having difficulties with the
I. and N. S., with the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. Moulder. Where were these meetings ?
Mr. Lautner. Once or twice I went down on 2()th Street at the
headquarters of the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Moulder. Where was that ?
Mr. Lautner. On 26th Street, near Broadway. It is right oti'
Broadway on the north side of 2()th Street. At that time knowri as
the Fredcly Field Building.
Mr. Moulder. And you saAv her thei-e at those meetings?
Mr. Lautner. Tliese meetings were of the nature in.volving party
members who had difficulties with the Immigration and Natuializa-
tion Service.
Mr. Moulder. And she Avas j^articijiating?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Moltlder. As a Communist Party niembei- ?
Mr. Lautner. She Avas participating in her capacity as a function-
ary of the Protection of Foreign I^orn, in the oi-ganixation. As a
party member, she Avas also r)artici])atina in national conventions.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HARRIET BARRON— Resumed
Mr. Mouu)ER. May I ask her this question i You have heard his
testimony specifically concerning you. Do you Avish to deny or alfirm
any part of his testimony? We have often heard here the Avitnesses
don't liaA'e an opportunity to be confronted by a Avitness. I have never
observed any more clear illustration of a Avitness being confronted by a
witness than in this case. You are given the o])|)()rtunity to deny or
affirm any ])art of his testimony if you Avish to do so. "What do you
say about it?
(Witness consulted lier counsel. )
6190 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Barron. I appreciate the opportunity given to me, but I wish
to decline on the basis previously stated to make any further statement
in regard to this witness' testimony.
Mr. ScHERER. Was there anything the witness said about you in
the last part of his testimony that was untrue ?
Mr. FoRER. She answered that already.
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking her again, Mr. Counsel.
(Witness consulted her counsel. )
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Barron, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the
Daily Worker, New York, of June 17, 1951, in which appears a photo-
graph and an article under the photograph, pictured here at the all-
nations' salute honoring Ferdinand Smith and Midwest victims of
McCarran-Walter law deportation hysteria. A person identified here
is Mrs. Harriet Barron. I ask you to look at that photograph and
article, and ask if you are the Harriet Barron alluded to in the article?
Mrs. Barron. I am sorry. I decline to answer.
Mr. Moulder. Mr, Counsel, so many times this committee has been
criticized in that witnesses are not given an opportunity to be con-
fronted by a witness or they are not given an opportunity to inter-
rogate their accuser. A witness has just appeared. Do you wish to
ask him any questions or to interrogate him, through the advice of
your counsel or by yourself, to ask him any questions? I mean the
witness, Mr. John Lautner.
Mrs. Barron. I would prefer not to talk to that man.
Mr. Arens. Now, were you a participant in the all-nations' salute
to Ferdinand Smith and Midwest victims of the McCarran law ?
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
same basis as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you an exhibit which is a photostatic copy
of an article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker of New York,
October 23, 1951, page 5, referring to Harriet Barron, national admin-
istrative secretary of American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, as one of the principal speakers at a foreign-born conference
held in Cleveland, Ohio.
Kindly look at that article and tell us if you are the individual
alluded to there and if you did participate in that conference.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 40," see appendix, p. 7157.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another exhibit with reference
to a conference held at Ford Local 600 Auditorium in Detroit, Mich.,
under the auspices of the Michigan Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, in which the delegates and participants are listed, includ-
ing one Harriet Barron, and ask you to look at that and see if that
refreshes your recollection and tell this committee whether or not you
participated in that conference.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 41," see appendix, pp. 7157, 7158.)
Mr. Arens. I observe here that the cosponsor of this organization
is a group called the National Women's Appeal for the Rights of
Foreign Born Americans. Are you conversant with the existence of
that organization ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer for the same reason I stated
previously.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6191
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the National Women's Appeal?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer for the same reason I stated
previously.
Mr. Arens. Is the National Women's Appeal a Communist-con-
trolled organization?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a summary proceeding of the National
Conference of Deportee Defense Committees which was participated
in by representatives of a number of committees. At the bottom of
this proceeding appears the following :
Harriet Barron reported on the activity of the National Women's Appeal for
the Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
I ask you if you participated in that conference and represented
the National Women's Appeal?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 42," see appendix, pp. 7158-7160.)
Mr. Arens. Is this document which I have just laid before you an
official publication of the conference ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter signed
by Harriet Barron, administrative secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, addressed to Mr. J, N. Smith,
Odd Fellows Hall Association, 1849 Ninth Street NW., Washington,
D. C, in which request is made for use of the hall for January 8, 1955,
and ask you if you are the Harriet Barron who offered that signature?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 43," see appendix, p. 7161.)
Mr. Arens. Did you in 1955 solicit the use of a hall in Washington,
D. C, the Odd Fellows Hall, for the use of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born for a rally ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you three letters, each signed "Harriet,"
and all addressed, "Dear Evelyn," the first one dated June 22, 1954,
the second March 31, 1954, the third dated April 13, 1954, with refer-
ence to certain activities of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Bom and ask if you will kindly identify those letters for us.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 44, 45, 46," see appendix, p.
7162.)
Mr. Arens. In this one letter I observe the statement, "Dear Evelyn.
Steve was here yesterday." Wlio was Steve ? Was that Steve Nelson ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in lobbying activities ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. What do you mean by that? Did I personally lobby ?
Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in activities designed to influence
legislative action ?
Mr. Moulder. Organized activities he is referring to. Every in-
dividual might try to influence legislation.
Mr. FoRER. You mean by direct visits ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
6192 coM]vnj]sriST political subversion
Mr. INIoxiLDER. The question is direct, Were you a member of any
orffanization?
Mrs. Barrox. Was I a member of any organization that engaged
in lobbying activities ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered or have you ever been registered
under the Lobbying Act ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. No.
Mr. Arens. When were you last in Washington, D. C. ?
Mrs. Barron. I can't remember now. I don't remember the exact
date I was here last.
Mr. Arens. When were you served with your subpena, do you re-
call, about when ?
Mrs. Barron. You mean what day ?
Mr. Arens. Approximately when. We have had it here in the
record, but it is not handy at the moment. It has been some few
weeks ago ; has it not ?
Mrs. Barron. It was on Thursday, the previous Thursday, not last
Thursday. The previous Thursday.
Mr. Arens. And where were you when you received your subpena ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on
Mr. Arens. In what State were you ?
Mrs. Barron. In what state was I ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Barron. You mean was I upset about it ?
Mr. Arens. No. I mean what State of the Union were you in ?
Mrs. Barron. I was in New York State.
Mr. Arens. Since you received your subpena where have you been ;
in what States ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I was in St, Louis, Denver, Salt Lake City, and Los
Angeles.
Mr. Arens. That has been just a week ago Thursday.
Mrs. Barron. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Did you engage in meetings in these various cities
which you just cited to the committee ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Moul-der. It occurs to me that you have waived your j)rivilege,
if any, by saying that you were in St. Louis, Salt Lake City, and
wherever you may have been, Denver and Los Angeles.
Mr. Forer. It just isn't so.
Mr. Moulder. By opening it up. You say you Avere there. What
pur])ose were you in those cities for? Were you visiting?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Was it a pleasure trip ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. AVho paid your expenses '.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. The fact is you Avere setting up Communist conferences
throughout the country in pursuit of the work of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; is that not true?
(Witness consulted lier counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6193
Mrs. Barron. It is not true.
Mr. Arens. Were you engaged in work on behalf of the American
(Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Barron. That I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer inasmuch as you
denied the other question. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
You must respond and leave this thing cleanly on the board or else
deny it or claim the privilege, one or the other.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in your career toward causing the
immigration system to be weakened ?
Mrs. Barron. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Arens. Have you taken any action designed to affect the course
of legislation pertaining to inmiigration ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. I am curious to ask you this : Were your visits to the
cities that you mentioned a moment ago the result of a subpena which
was served upon you ^
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. It had nothing to do with the subpena.
Mr. Moulder. That question was submitted to you by counsel fol-
lowing the question about subpena.
Mrs. Barron. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Moulder. He asked you a question about your subpena, and
then asked you the question where you had been since you were served
with the subpena. I wondered whether or not your ti'ips to the cities
you have mentioned was the result of the subpena that was served upon
you.
Mr. FoRER. She answered that. She said, "No."
Mr. Arens. Since you were served with your subpena before this
committee, you took this trip to the west coast.
(Witness consulted counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I had my plans before it.
Mr. Arens. And you communicated with this committee tliat you
planned on making this trip and therefore had to have some kind of
adjustment in your schedule of appearance before this committee; is
that correct?
Mrs. Barron. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Was this trip that you took to the west coast in the
course of the work in which you are engaged for your livelihood ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfidly suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to make anj^ explanation or make any
statement concerning your occupation or livelihood referred to by
counsel ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Bari{on. I would like to ask a question. Is it wrong for peo-
ple to tight against unjust legislation?
Mr. ScHERER. No; but the Congi-ess has a right to know whether
that fight is led by a foreign power through the Communist Party.
That is what we are trying to find out. You could tell us about that.
Mr. Ari<:ns. Tell this comndttee what legislation you have fought
against.
6194 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that on the basis stated previously,
Mr. ScHERER. Congress has a right to know whether a foreign power
is instigating legislation which you are supporting and whether you
are getting other people in this country to support it without them
knowing the fact that the Communist Party is behind the effort. That
is what we want to know. You have a perfect right, every American
has a perfect right, to lobby the Congress. We also have the right
to know whether that legislation is being proposed by a foreign
government with whom we are engaged in a cold war. That is what
you could tell us. That is what we want to know. We want to know
the source of this agitation.
Mrs. Barron. I don't know anything about that.
Mr. ScHERER. You said you don't know anything about it?
Mr. FoRER. She couldn't tell you. That is what she said. That is
what she said.
Mrs. Barron. I don't know anything about any foreign power en-
gaged in
Mr. ScHERER. The Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom gets
money from the Communist Party, does it not ?
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. ScHERER. I submit she must answer that in view of her answer
and I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mrs. Barron. I am sorry I must refuse.
Mr. Scherer. You get your salary from the Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that.
Mr, Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that yon direct the witness to
answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that as previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. This member of the committee feels you are in con-
tempt of this committee because you said in response to my question
that what I said was not true.
Mr. Forer. That does not put her in contempt of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. That does not put her in contempt, but a refusal to
answer these questions puts her in contempt of the committee in my
opinion.
Mr. Forer. No, you are wrong; I am sorry.
Mr, Moulder. The statements made by Congressman Scherer are
not made in the spirit of a threat. I wish you to know that my
statement made a moment ago is not. So many times this committee
has been criticized in that witnesses are not given the opportunity to
defend themselves or to be confronted by an accuser, which you have
been, by a witness who sat on the witness stand right beside you, under
oath, and made certain accusations concerning you and your activities
in the Communist Party, and other activities, and we tried to offer you
the opportunity to interrogate or to cross-examine this witness, and
you said you chose not to do so. Then, at the close of your testimony,
I asked you if you have any statement to make yourself as an explan-
ation of your claiming the fifth amendment which you clearly have
under our form of government. As I understand you have nothing
more to say.
Mrs. Barron. That is right.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6195
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. Call your next witness.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, may we have a recess for a few min-
utes?
Mr. Moulder. Yes. The committee will stand in recess for a few.
minutes.
(Short recess.)
(Present at reconvening after recess, Kepresentatives Moulder and
Scherer.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Albert Colloms, please come forward and remain
standing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Colloms. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALBEKT L. COLLOMS, ACCOMPANIED BY JOSEPH
PORER, COUNSEL
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Colloms. Albert L. Colloms, 46 West 95th Street, New York
City, an attorney.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Colloms. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. FoRER. Yes ; Joseph Forer, 711 14th Street NW., Washington,
D. C.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Colloms, I lay before you a letter dated February
25, 1956, and a press release entitled "Legislative Conference To
Spur Congressional Action," which sets forth the position of the
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest, and on which
is set forth the name of Angus Cameron as chairman, and secretary
Albert L. Colloms. I ask you if you are the secretary for the Con-
ference for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. Colloms. Yes, I am.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 47a, b, and 48," see appendix,
pp. 7163-7165.)
Mr. Arens. As secretary, do you have custody and control of the
minutes and records of the organization ?
Mr. Colloms. If there were any I would have control of them.
Mr. Arens. Are there such records ?
Mr. Colloms. There are no minutes of the organization which was
subpenaed. Tliere have never been any minutes.
Mr. Arens. The subpena which was served upon you is a subpena
duces tecum demanding you to produce excerpts of all minutes of the
meetings of this organization. Are there any such records ?
Mr, Colloms. There was one meeting of the conference. There
were no minutes taken of that meeting to the best of my knowledge,
and I never saw^ them.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Angus Cameron ?
(Witness consulted with his counsel.)
6196 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, I know him.
Mr. Arens. Is he chairman of the Conference for Legislation in the
National Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, he is.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Prof . Ephraim Cross?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I know his name.
Mr. Arens. What is his identification, if any, with the Conference
for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. Coi>LOMS. May I see that document, please ?
Mr. Arens. Yes [handing].
Mr. CoLLOMS. I take it he was a sponsor.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been secretary of the conference!
Mr. CoLLOMS. Since about January 20, 1 would say.
Mr. Arens. Are you the only secretary the conference has ever had ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I am not sure if there was one prior to me.
Mr. Arens. Who is Rose Russell ?
Mr. CoLLOMS, Apparently from that document she was a sponsor,
too.
Mr. Arens. If you are secretary, wouldn't you know if she is or not?
Mr, CoLLOMS. That document was issued before I was secretary, I
believe. I received one of those and that is how I became interested
' in the conference.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Dr. W. E. B. DuBois?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Very well ; that is a very famous name in American
history.
Mr. Arens. Do you know his connection with the conference?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I believe he was also a sponsor.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Angus Cameron is a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I do not know.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Rose Russell is a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS, I do not know.
Mr. Arens. Do you receive compensation as secretary of the Con-
ference for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I do not.
Mr. Arens. How many members are there of the Conference for
Legislation in the National Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Not enough. As a matter of fact, there are no mem-
bers. There are just some people who are called continuation com-
mittee people, and I think sponsors. That is all.
Mr. Arens. What is the budget of the Conference for Legislation
in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. In the red.
Mr. Arens. AVliat is its income?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Whatever we can collect if we have another confer-
ence.
Mr. Arens. lYhat was its income in the last conference?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Somewhere between $400 and $700.
Mr. Arens. Was it all expended ?
Mr. CoLi.oMS. Except for about $20 which is now in the bank, and
$100 which was spent on an ad in the National Guardian trying to
get some more members, which we didn't get.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6197
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a press release,
dated April 1, 1956, issued by the Conference for Legislation in the
National Interest, which sets forth information as to certain sessions
of the conference. Otto Nathan was to lead a discussion, and Victor
Kabinowitz was to lead a discussion, Angus Cameron and others were
to participate. I ask if you were also a participant in that particular
conference of the Conference for Legislation in the National Interest.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. If that was the conference of April 7, which I take it
it is, it is not outlined in that document, I was present at that con-
ference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 49," see appendix, p. 7166.)
Mr. Arens. Who solicited your membership in the conference ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I got one of those documents which you showed me,
having the four sponsors' names on it, or whatever they are called in
that letter, and 1 appeared at a meeting in New York where those
sponsors and some other people were present. I don't remember who
they were, and there was general discussion about Congress not having
done anything about legislation for a while, and that it might be
important to get some legislation passed which would be in the public
interest, such as housing, increased appropriations for social security,
social-security extension, coverage extension in social security, agri-
cultural measures, repeal of the Smith Act, extension of aid for foreign
countries culturally, all kinds of legislation which I believe was in the
public interest.
Mr. Scheri:r. Just of interest to me, was there any discussion as to
how the money should be raised for these new activities ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, sure.
Mr. ScHERER, How?
Mr. CoLLOMs. The committee was to borrow money from the Amer-
ican Labor Party in New York for the purpose of running the first
meeting because they were the only people who had any money on hand
that we knew at that time, and then we would repay tliem from the
proceeds of the first meeting which we did.
Mr. SciiERER. I didn't mean that. I mean in your discussions about
this new legislation or expanded legislation of the Federal Govern-
ment, did this committee discuss the means by which the Federal
Government could finance it ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, surely ; taxes.
Mr. ScHERER. Increased taxes ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. No. We didn't say that. We meant a fairer tiix
base.
Mr. Arexs. How much literature did the conference disseminate
over the country ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Over the country ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. C()ij.():\rs. So f;n- as I know, none.
Mr. AkeiVS. Ilowniuch literature did it disseminate ?
Mr. CoLLoMS. There were, as I understand, about .']()0 people ^^-es-
ent at that conference — about -jOO — and 1 guess we gave out oOO pieces
of literature.
Mr. Forer. You nnist have had a. call.
Mr. CoLLOMS. There was a call also.
85333— 37— pt. 1 5
6198 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Are j'ou now, or have you ever been, a member of tlie
Communist Party?
Mr. CoLLOMS. 1 refuse to answer that on tlie grounds of the fifth
and first amendments, and I don't think this conmiittee has any author-
ity to enter an inquiry concerning my beliefs or political affiliations.
Mr. SciiERER. You mean this committee does not have tlie right to
determine Avhether at this date vou are a member of the Cojinminist
Party ^
Mr. CoLLOMS. I said that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been employed by the Federal (rovern-
ment ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I have.
Mr. Arens. Where were you employed by the Federal Government?
Mr. CoLLOMS. In Washington and New York.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. From 1938 to 1940, 1941 to 1946.
Mr. Arens. In what agencies 'i
Mr. CoLLOMS. I was with the United States Housing Administration
from 1938 to 1940 in Washington, and maybe a month in New Y^ork, I
am not sure, and for the Office of Price Administration in New^ Y^'ork
City.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you were employed by the Government of the United States ?
Mr. CoLLoMS. I refuse to answer that question on the same gi-ounds
as stated before.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time during the course of your employ-
ment or as a prerequisite of obtaining employment in the Federal
Government sign a non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Do you laiow where Rose Russell is now ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. At this moment ?
Mr. Arens. Y"es, sir.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I haven't the slightest notion.
Mr. Arens. Have you talked to her or been in contact with her in
the course of the last 10 days ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. As a matter of fact, I think I met her in the lobby
of a theater in New York last Sunday ; that is a week ago yesterday.
I think so. I am not sure.
Mr. Arens. Do you know where Angus Cameron is ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Person.ally, no. 1 heard that he was in Canada hunt-
ing, shooting moose and deer.
Mr. S('iiERER. He wasn't in Himgary. anyliow.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't even know that.
Mr. SciiERER. Where does he live^ What is liis residence when he
is not shooting deer ?
Mr. CoLLOMs. I don't know. He is in New York a good part of the
time.
Mr. Arens. The reason we asked about Rose Russell is because the
committee has been looking for some time to serve a subpena on her,
and cannot find her.
Mr. ( 'oLLOMs. Maybe she is not in New York.
Mr. Akens. The next document is apparently a letter of welcome
used at the Conference for I^egislation in the National Interest,
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6199
April T, 1956, indicating that there were five attachments, as fol-
lows : A program of a conference ; technique for effective writing to
Congressmen: list of key congressional connnittees; key assigmnents
of Xew York City Congressmen and Ignited States Senators; and
bills for proposed legislation classified by panels. I ask if these are
true and correct reproductions of the documents of the Conference
for Legislation in the National Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. This looks like a copy of one of tlie documents that
was used there.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Xo. 50a-n," see appendix, pp. il6(-
T1T9.)
Mr. Arens. Did you undertake to contact any C ongressmen or
members of any of ^ the congressional connnittees in belialf of the
legislative program of the Conference for Legislation in the National
Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I, personally? I think I did. I think I sent some
letters to people in Washington and Congressmen asking to send us
bills. I think Ave had them and I think they were reported on at that
conference.
Mr. Arexs. Did you disseminate information respecting those bills,
around Xew York City ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Xo, at the conference only.
Mr. Arexs. Is the Conference for Legislation in the Xational
Interest or any of its key officers registered or listed under the Lobby-
ing Act ?
Air. CoLLOM.-?. I don't tliink so.
Mr. Arexs. Does tlie Conference for Legislation in the Xational
Interest undertake to influence legislation ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know what you mean by tliat.
Mr. Arexs. Does it advocate certain legislation ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Is there anything wrong with advocating legislation,
sir ?
Mr. Arexs. Xo. I am just asking you if they are doing so.
Mr. CoLLOMS. If 300 people Avho met once can influence legislation^
they have tried to influence legislation.
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you one of the attachments to the letter
of welcome, a four-page bulletin entitled "Dear Congressman," in
which is set forth a technique for contacting Congressmen and a list
of cei'tain Congressmen who are to be contacted on behalf of the
program, of the Conference for Legislation in the Xational Interest,
and so forth, and ask you if that is a true and correct reproduction
or true and correct presentation of the program of the conference.
Mr. CoLLOMs. Yes. This is one. Is this the one you mean that
has:
Avoid post cards. Letters show more thought and interest. A\'rite, do not
wire unless time reciuires it.
Mr. Arexs. Yes.
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Write legibly or use a typewriter.
Mr. Arexs. Yes.
Ml'. CoLLoMs (reading) :
Limit youT letter to one subject.
Mr. Arexs. Yes, sir.
6200 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Give reasons for opinion and don't scold, issue orders, threaten with your
votes.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Be objective and write on the basis of information and not rumor.
Mr. Ahens. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Use letters, praise actions, and bills as well as to condemn. Be original.
Write your own letter.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. CoLLOMS. That is right. We sent that out.
(See exliibit No. 50k, appendix, p. 7175.)
Mr. Arens. What is the position which the conference has taken
with reference to the Battle Act, which prohibits certain trade in cer-
tain strategic materials with the Iron Curtain countries?
Mr. CoLLOMS. As a matter of fact
Mr. Arens. Do you recall the position of the conference with refer-
ence to the Battle Act ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. May I finish my answer, please, Mr. Arens. As a
matter of fact, I don't think any action was taken at any time by the
conference. I think that these instruction sheets or legislative infor-
mation sheets were given to the delegates and that action was pro-
posed, but no formal action w^as taken by the conference because of
the lack of time.
Mr. Arens. Who did the proposing? Who took the position on
these various points?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I would think that it was the reporter who prepared
those sheets for each one of the panels. I am not sure, but I think
that is the way it was done.
Mr. Arens. Who was the reporter ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know. I would have to look back at the
program.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a copy of another bulletin entitled
^'Panel : Survival or Extinction" of the Conference for Ijegislation
in the National Interest. I ask you if that refreshes your recollection ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. As to who prepared it ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoLLOMS. No, it does not refresh my recollection.
Mr. Arens. Does it refresli your recollection with reference to the
position taken by the conference ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. If I read it, it will.
Mr. Arens. Or by the proponents of the conference?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes. It says "For Repeal.''
(See exhibit No. 50c, appendix, p. 7168.)
Mr. Arens. Look at anotlier Inilletin, and tell us the legislative
))osition of the conference with reference to the Smith Act, the im-
munity laws, the Subversive Activities Control Act, and the Com-
munist Control Act.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I imagine it was a repeal for all of those.
Mr. Arens. What connection, if any, to your knowledge has Abner
Green had with the Conference for legislation in the National
Interest?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6201
Mr. CoLLOMS. So far as I know, none.
Mr. Arens. Do yon know Abner Green ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I saw him here.
Mr. Arens. Have yon ever seen him before?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, I think I saw him at a dinner in NeAv York.
Mr. Arens. Was that dinner nnder the auspices of the Conference
for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. No.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell the committee who it is, if yon know, who
prepared this memo, Conference for Legislation in the National In-
terest, on the Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Do you know who it is who served on these panels of
the Conference for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I think the program is accurate. I don't remember
who they were now. I was not present at each panel. They all ran
simultaneously.
Mr. Arens. Do you know who prepared this program, including the
recommendations ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I am not sure. It was probably the reporter or some
one Avith the reporter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 51," see appendix, p. 7179.)
Mr. Arens. Are you now as secretary of the Conference for Legis-
lation in the National Interest under the discipline of the Communist
conspiracy in this country.
Mr. CoLLOMS. Will you please explain that? I don't know what
you mean by "Communist conspiracy in this country."
Mr. Arens. Communist Party in this country.
Mr. CoLOM. What do you mean by "discipline" ?
Mr. Arens. Are you receiving now orders in connection with your
work in the Conference for Legislation in the National Interest from
the Communist Party or from persons known by you to be members
of the Communist Party?
(Witness consults his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. The answer quite definitely is "No."
Mr. Arens. Are you, while you are a member of the Conference
for legislation in the National Interest, at the same time a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. 'Wliat is that again ? Repeat that.
IVIr. Arens. During the course of your tenure as secretary of the
Conference for I^egislation in the National Interest, are you likewise
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
INfr. Arens. Does the Conference for Legislation in the National
Interest disseminate literature of the American Committee for Protec-
tio^T of Foreign Born ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I think that at that first conference, that 1 conference,
they did have 1 piece of legislation that was issued by the Conunittee
for the Protection of Foreign Born.
JSIr. Arens. You mean one piece of literature ?
Mr. C01J.OMS. That is right.
6202 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Does that conference or has the conference dissemi-
nated literature of the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee such as
this pamphlet entitled "The Smith Act"?
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 52a, b," see appendix, pp. 7180-
7181.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. They may have also had one of those. I am not
sure, but they may have.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, this pamphlet was included in the ma-
terial g'iven to each delegate to the national legislative conference.
Mr. (^olloms, does the conference and has the conference likewise
distributed or disseminated literature of other organizations which
have been found by Government agencies to be Communist fronts?
Mr. Collo:ms. That is one of those, so-called loaded questions — ''has
it also." I don't know what agencies they are.
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; I would suggest that the counsel separate the
questions.
Mr. CoLLOMS. That is right.
Mr. Arens. The National Lawyers Guild
Mr. FoRER. Who found the National Lawyers Guild to be a Com-
munist front ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I was going to ask that.
Mr. Arens. The Commitee on Un-American Activities.
Mr. CoLLOMS. Without a hearing. That is not very binding on
anybody.
Mr. Arens. Let us get to the point. Has the Conference for Legis-
lation in the National Interest distributed literature for the National
Lawyers Guild?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the National Lawyers
Guild?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I have and am.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the National Lawyers Guild
when you were employed by the Federal Government?
Mr. CoLLOMs. I was.
Mr. Arens. Were you in a Communist fraction of tlie National
Lawyers Guild while you were employed by the Federal Government ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. I refuse to answer that one on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name
of Mortimer Riemer ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes; he was the executive secretary, the first execu-
tive secretary of the National Lawyers Guild when Thurman Arnold
was one of the vice presidents and Judge Frankfuiter was one of the
members and a number of other people in Washington were active.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Riemer is, or ever has been,
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I think he said so. It was mentioned in the New
York Times in a press release.
Mr. Moulder. He is asking you of your own personal knowledge.
Mr. CoLLOMS. No ; I don't know.
Mr. MoirLDER. That is all you can testify to.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. However, I would like
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6203
two additional documents contained in the committee's files : An
article appearing in the Daily Worlrer, March 19, 1956; and an edi-
torial in the Daily Worker of April G, 1956,
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 53, 54," see appendix, pp. 7182-
7183.)
Mr. Moulder. Mslj I ask you, then, in connection with your Gov-
ernment service, Did you voluntarily resign or was it terminated for
other reasons?
Mr. Colloms. In both cases I voluntarily resigned.
Mr. Moulder. May I make my point here. The right of American
people to assemble and to favor or oppose legislation is an American
privilege or right. The question in response to counsel is whether
or not there is a subversive influence in connection with it which I
miderstand you refused to answer.
Mr. Colloms. I answered every question about the committee. I
refuse to answer my personal beliefs, I believe the committee is
going to continue to function if we can raise enough members and
enough money.
Mr. ScHERER, Let me say this. What I want to know as a Member
of Congress, when I receive information from a committee such as
this, I want to know whether it is information or suggested legislation
coming from tlie Communist Party using a fictitious or seemingly
respectable name.
Mr, Moulder. As I understand this witness' testimony, he denies
having any knowledge or connection with that sort of activity.
Mr. Arens. Yes, but he does not deny Communist Party member-
ship. He has invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Yes, I undei-stand that. But he says he has no
knowledge of any other influence.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. George Murphy, come forward.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Mt.rpiiy. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE B. MURPHY, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY
WILLIAM H. MURPHY AND JOSEPH FORER, COUNSEL
Mr. Arens, Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Murphy. My name is George B. Murphy, Jr. I live at 5210
First Street, NW. I am employed as an assistant to the grand
secretary of the Improved Benevolent and Protective Order of the
Elks of the World.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel identify themselves,
Mr, Murphy. My name is William H. Murphy. I am an attorney.
I am from Baltimore, Md.
Mr. F()ri;h, I am Joseph Forer, again.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?
Mr. Murphy, I just answered that.
Mr. Arens. You didn't say where.
Mr. Murphy. In Washington, D. C.
6204 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. How long have you been so employed ?
Mr. MuRPiiY. Nearly 3 years.
Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you ever known a person by the
name of Dorothy Funn ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis that I
have a privilege under the fifth amendment which denies me the right
to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arens. Dorothy Funn has identified you before this committee
as a person who to her Iniowledge was known as a Communist. Was
she lying or telling the truth ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis as
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Dorothy Funn, would you kindly stand in the back of
the room? Would you kindly look around your left shoulder, Mr.
Murphy, and see the lady standing there and tell the committee
whether you ever saw her before ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer the question as previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask the question, Has this witness you have
asked him to identify testified ?
Mr. Arens. She will testify very shortly, Mr. Chairman.
How long have you been employed in your present job ?
Mr. Murphy. Nearly 3 years, I stated.
Mr. Arens. Where was your employment just prior to the present
employment ?
Mr. JMuRPHY. Prior to that I was general manager of Freedom, a
newspaper, a monthly newspaper.
Mr. Arens. Where is that located ?
Mr. Murphy. That was located in New York City.
Mr. Arens. "WHio controlled Freedom ? Who owned it ?
Mr. Murphy. It was a corporation.
Mr. Arens. Who was the president ?
Mr. Murphy. I believe Mr. Louis E. Burnham was president and I
was secretary general.
Mr. Arens. Is the paper still in existence ?
Mr. Murphy. No.
Mr. Arens. Just give us a word about the editorial board.
Mr. Murphy. As nearly as I can recall, Mrs. Shirley Graham was a
member of the editorial board, Mr. Paul Robeson, Dr. Alphaeus
Hunton, Mrs. INIodjeska Simpkins.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation immediately prior to your
employment with the publication, Freedom ?
Mr. Murphy. I was assistant to the campaign manager of the Pro-
gressive Party.
Mr. Arens. Where was that ?
Mr. Murphy. That was located in New York City.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you occupy that position ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't remember the exact number of years. It was
about 2 years.
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to your
job witli the Progressive Party?
Mr. Murphy. Prior to that, I was national commander of the United
Negro and Allied Veterans of America.
Mr. AiiENs. How long did you 1 lold that post ?
Mr. Murphy. Approximately 2 years.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6205
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to that ?
Mr. Murphy. I was in the Army.
Mr. Arexs. AVhat was your term of service in the Army ?
Mr. Murphy. Three years.
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to the time
that you went into the xVrniy ?
Mr. Murphy. I was administrative secretary to the National Negro
Congress.
Mr. Arens. What was your position prior to that ?
Mr, Murphy. Prior to tliat I think I was general manager of the
Washington Afro- American.
Mr. Arexs. Identify that pviblication, please.
Mr. Murphy. A Negro weekly publication,
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your
employment with the Afro-American ?
Mr. Murphy. Prior to that I was a teacher at Allen University.
Mr. xVrens. Where is that ^
Mr. Murphy. A Negro school under the auspices of the xVfrican
Metliodist Episcopal Church in Columbia, S. C.
Mr. Arens. Would you give us, then, a word about your employment
prior to that time ^
Mr. Murphy. That was my first employment. I would say this,
other than summer work in hotels.
Mr, Arens. Are you now a member of the Comnumist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I decline to answer that question on the basis as pre-
viously stated. I think at this point, Mr. Chairman, I ought to state
respectfully to the committee that I have a definite reason for utilizing
the fifth amendment on the basis of the fact. No. 1, that in the entire
record of this committee, as a Negro in this comitry, who has not yet
fully received his rights, I have seen no record in tlie entire formation
of the committee from the time it began, as much as I knew it under
the Dies committee, where it has ever brought forward any organi-
zation, any group of people, who have continued to deny our people
their rights such as the great conspiracy of the white citizens' coun-
cils, the Ku Klux Klan, and other organizations which I really regard
as the genuine conspiracy in America.
Mr. Arens. Do you regard the Communist Party as a conspira-
torial organization ?
Mr. Murphy. No, I don't.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question as previously stated.
Mr, Arens, I lay before you, Mr, ISIurphy, a document entitled,
"Mobilize for Peace, Chicago, August 31, and September 1-2, 1940,"
in which are listed a number of sponsors who were participants in this
conference, including a person identified as George Murphy, Jr,, Na-
tional Association for the Advancement of Colored People. I ask if
you are the George Murphy referred to,
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 55a, b." See appendix, pp. 7184-
7185.)
Mr. Murphy. Before I identify that, Mr. Chairman, I want to recall
my memory. I was employed as public relations director of the Na-
tional Association for the Advancement of Colored People for 3 years.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall. It was probably 1937 and 1939, or 1937
and 1940.
6206 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. SciiERER. While you were employed as a public relations di-
rector for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People, were you a member of the Communist Party at that time?
Mr. MuRPiiY. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. May I say your statement about this committee not
investigating the Ku Klux Klan and other organizations, which you
say are contrary to the civil rights and rights of the colored people,
that even so has never encouraged, shall I say, the colored people to
be connected with the Communist conspiracy or the Communist Party.
I, as a member of this committee, will say that I have observed that
the colored people as a people have had, I would say, the most intense
loyalty to our present form of government and the American system of
government, and have never fallen for the propaganda or for the Com-
munist conspiracy or the Communist Party, either.
I would say even subjected to the abuses you have mentioned, I would
say that they have never been susceptible to being prejudiced against
their own Government for the Communist Party or any such con-
spiracy.
Mr. Murphy. I appreciate your observation, but my point in an-
swer to that is this. Actually, underneath the record that I have
pointed out as to why I felt the way I did, is a whole system and
principle of white supremacy in this country. If I may be permitted
to say so, you exemplify that when you undertake to tell me what our
people are loyal to and not loyal to. You are not in our minds. You
don't know what Negro people have sulfered all of these years. To
say in the face of that that somehow or other they remain loyal to this
Government to me
;Mr. ISIoulder. I am saying from my observation on this committee.
Mr. Murphy. That is your observation, and I am giving mine, if
you please.
Mr. Arens. Was your disassociation from the National Association
for the Advancement of Colored People voluntary ?
Mr. Murphy. Voluntarily. I resigned.
Mr.^ Arens. Did you make known to the officials of the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People any connection
you may have had with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I decline to answer that question on the basis as I
have previously stated.
I would like to state, however, why I resigned from the NAACP.
If you are interested in knowing that.
Mr. Arens, All right, go ahead.
Mr. Murphy. The question came up there in the NAACP at the time
as to how far a person might rtisponsibly occupy a position in the
NAACP and exercise his right as a citizen to vote or to help people in
the right to be elected to office, and I took the position that while carry-
ing out my duties and occupying my office in conformity with the regu-
lations of the NAACP that beyond that point no organization had any
control over my actions, in either helping to elect people to office or
otherwise, and in that case I was exercising my right as a citizen.
There was a difference of opinion about that.
Mr. MouLHER. The point I was trying to malce clear a moment ago
that the colored people have never felt as a group that they could
rectify the grievances and injustices that they complain of through
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6207
the Communist Party. There is some evidence of Commmiist Party
attempt to infilter and gain the affiliation of the colored people with
the Communist Party because of their grievances. I say they have
resisted it. Have you ever as such a person attempted to represent the
Communist Party
Mr. Murphy. Before I answer that question I want to take excep-
tion to what you just said. You nor no Member of Congress or any
white person in this country can sit up before me, you might before
some Negro people, and make a statement as to what you know the
Negro people think or feel. You can only judge by your experience
in observing them. Therefore, I am not going to permit you, sir, to
speak for our feelings and relationships.
Mr. Moulder. I am not trying to speak for them. I am trying to
be very fair about it.
Mr. MuRPUY. I believe you are. I am trying to tell j^ou. Repre-
sentative Moulder, that the whole notion of white superiority in this
country creates a patronizing attitude toward Negroes where white
people can undertake to state for them what their feelings are and
how they react. This I regard as an insult to our intelligence and an
insult to our people.
Mr. Moulder. I am not taking a patronizing attitude. I am simply
saying that the Communist Party is not a solution to what you are
talking about. Don't you agree with me on that ?
Mr. Murphy. I have no observation to make on that.
Mr. Mout^der. That is my thought.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been chairman or honorary chairman of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. MtTiPHY. I have been an honorary cochairman of the Ameri-
can Committeee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you occupy that position ?
Mr. Murphy. As a matter of fact, up until maybe more than 2
years ago.
Mr. Arexs. Did you serve as cochairman of the National Confer-
ence of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Murphy. "V^Hiich national conference ?
Mr. Arens. Held in New York City in December of 1954 ?
]Mr. Murphy. I don't think I was present at that conference.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes ; I know Abner Green.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as executive secretary of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
]Mr. MupjPHY. Yes. I would like to make the observation here that
in knowing Abner Green for as long as I have been connected with the
committee, which lias been as far back as I can remember, since 1938,
at which time I had a friend to take over to Ellis Island for naturaliza-
tion proceedings, and I asked the American Committee wliich was then
located on Fifth Avenue, could they help me to solve that problem
since our association, the NAACP, knew nothing about it, and when
I got over there one of the first things I found out which made me
feel that the American Committee was on the right track in helping
our people was that this friend whom I took there was told to state
that he was black.
Never mind what the rest of his nationality is, and that he could
only come into this country as a black person. I discussed this case
6208 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
"vvith the American Committee and they said that whenever a person,
even if he objects to it, that was the ruling, and nothing could be done
about it, but they would try to help insofar as they were able. Later
on, I came to know the committee because of the large number of West
Indian Negro people who have been denied their rights in connection
with coming into the country under the quota systems and that has
been my interest in the American Committee.
Because I believe that a Negro in this country cannot profitably
or loyally serve our Government while fighting for his own rights
even against those things which our Government and its agencies may
do against him without broadening his scope to see that the foreign-
born in this country have also been denied rights. That is the comity
of interest I have with the American Committee and which I still
retain.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Abner Green is a member
of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I have no such knowledge.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document entitled, "National Con-
ference to Eepeal the Walter-McCarran Law, December 1953," the
summary of proceedings in which it is stated that one George B.
Murphy, Jr.. introduced the chairman of the meeting and participated
in the meeting. I lay that before you and ask you if you have a recol-
lection of that session ?
(Document marked ''Exhibit V," see appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
Mr. Murphy. That appears to be correct.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Daily AVorker
of October 9, 1940, in which is set forth an article about a rally
to protest the efforts of Nicholas Murray Butler respecting the policy
of our Government and the title of the activity is "Walk Out on War,"
and ask you if you recall being in that conference ?
Mr. FoRER. This article about the American Student Union you
mean ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Murphy. I couldn't recall automatically whether I was present.
But I am quite certain that if it was a committee in which they were
protesting the ideas of war, it is perfectly possible I was present.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 56," see appendix, p. 7186.)
Mr. Arens. That was during the Hitler-Stalin Pact.
Mr. Murphy. I don't remember whether it was before that or after.
Mr. Arens. Did you change your position on war after Hitler in-
vaded Soviet Russia ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question om the basis that I
previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. How would that incriminate you?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the same basis.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you conscientiously believe that the answer to that
question subjects you to possible criminal prosecution?
Mr. Murphy. JRepresentative Scherer, before I answer thal^ ques-
tion I want to make this statement. I have indicated in the beginning
that the entire record of this committee in relationship to Negi'o people
does not make me a person who could speak other than earnestly what
T believe before it. That is the basis. Wlien you ask me do I ear-
nestly believe, there is no other position T can take. I refuse to answer
it on that basis.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6209
Mr. ScHERER. I ask you to direct the witness to answer my question.
Mr. FoRER. He just did. Your last question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask the cliairman to direct him to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Moulder. As requested by Congressman Scherer the witness is
directed to give a direct or responsive answer to the question. That
is not given in the spirit of a threat but to apprise you of your pos-
sible dangers involved in connection therewith.
Mr. Forer. May we have the question, because I thought he an-
swered it. Your question was whether he sincerely believed so and
he answered.
Mr. Scherer. He invoked the fifth amendment. I think you will
advise him to answer "yes" because you have advised every other wit-
ness to answer "yes"' to that question.
Mr. Forer. I thought he answered the question. May we have the
question again ?
Mr. Scherer. I asked him whether he honestly believes, to answer
the question asked him by counsel, would tend to incriminate him?
Mr. IMuRPHY. I am sure there is a tremendous possibility that it
might.
Mr, Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of September 16, 1940, "Negro Leaders Protest
Attacks Against Communist Candidates," in which a statement ap-
pears protesting certain activities taken by the Government of the'
United States against the Communist conspiracy. In it appears the
names of a number of people joining in the statement, including one
George B. Murphy. Jr., director of publicity of the National Associa-
tion for the Advancement of Colored People, New York. I ask you
if you recall joining in that statement of the defense of the Communist
conspirators ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know what you mean by tlie "Communist con-
spirators," Mr. Prosecutor. It says "Negro Leaders Protest Attacks
Against Communist Candidates," and my name is on that. I am sure
I did.
Mr. Arens. You did or did not?
Mr. Murphy. I did.
( Document marked "Exhibit No. 57," see appendix, pp. 7186-7187.)
Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that
time?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis as pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker of Wednesday, March 5, 1941, has
a statement entitled, "List of Signers of Statement Defending the
Communist Party," and a statement which is addressed to the Presi-
dent and to Ihe Congress, to uphold the constitutional rights of the
Communist Party. Appeai'ing in tliis list of names is that of George
B. Murphy, Jr.. Washington, D. C, and T ask you if you were the
George B. Murphy identiiied (here?
Mr. Murphy. This says:
Fullowinj.' is the cnmiilctc list of 4.10 iiroiiiiiKMit AnuM-icans who siii'iied a state-
ment urging the President and Congress to defend the rights of the Communist
Tarty.
Mr. Arexs. Did you sign that statement?
6210 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Murphy. I suspect that was during the time when they had the
question of w^hether or not they should be ruled off the ballot. Yes,
I signed that statement on the basis that I would support the rights
of any group whether they are regarded as political dissenters or not.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 58a-h," see appendix, pp. 7188-
7195.)
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of the Trotskyites?
Mr. Murphy. I could not be true to my own feeling about the rights
of Negroes unless I supported the right of political dissenters.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the right of Trotskyites to be in
existence and function ?
Mr. Murphy. If they are people who are being denied their rights
because of the political beliefs; yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of Fascists or Nazis?
Mr. Murphy. Now you are asking a question which you know per-
fectly well that I as a Negro would never support any Fascist or any
Nazi. How could I, in good conscience ?
Mr. Arens. I didn't ask you whether you would support the Nazis
or Fascists.
Mr. Murphy. No; I wouldn't support any Fascists or Nazis in
this country.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of any Nazis or Fascists ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't think the two terms are interchangeable.
Mr. Arens. You said you would support the rights of the Com-
munists ?
Mr. Murphy. That is right, as political dissenters.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of a Nazi or Fascist?
Mr. Murphy. A Nazi racist ; no.
Mr. Forer. Mr. Chairman, what is this hearing about?
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly restrain himself for a moment?
Mr. Moulder. Let us proceed.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the APM Memo,
a publication of the American Peace Mobilization. On page 2 there
appears an article including this quotation, "Only then can you effec-
tively organize the Negro people to give expression to their deep and
undying hatred of war, their hatred of this imperialistic war, this war
for profits and power." It was upon this note that Chairman George
B. Murphy, Jr., administrative secretary of the National Negro Con-
gress adjourned the meeting. Do you recall being in attendance at
that meeting in New York City and making those statements ?
Mr. Murphy. I am (juite sure I could have made those statements.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 59," see appendix, pp. 719(5, 7197.)
Mr. Arens. During the course of the time that you were in the Na-
tional Association for the Advancement of Colored People were you
likewise connected with the National Negro Congress?
JVIr. Murphy. No.
Mr. Sgherer. Mr. Counsel, will you repeat that statement from the
previous document, the statement about war ?
Mr. Arens. "Only then can you effectively organize the Negro
people to give expression to their deep and undying hatred of war,
their hatred of this imperialistic war, this war for profits and power."
It was upon this note that Mr. George B. Murphy, administrative sec-
retary of the National Negro Congress, adjourned the meeting.
Mr. Scherer. When did you change your opinion about war?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6211
Mr. Murphy. What do you mean about changing my opinion ?
Mr. ScHERER. You took an opposite stand when Russia became an
ally.
Mr. Murphy. I refused to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Do you recall writing to the New Masses protesting
what you described as persecution of Earl Browder ?
Mr! Murphy. I am sure I might liave.
Mr. Arens. Did you write to the New Masses saying among other
things :
As a Negro, member of an oppressed people in America, I am more convinced
than ever that Mr. Browder and the common people of our land will win out in
the end, no matter what the cost.
Mr. IVIuRPHY. I am quite sure I could have made that statement.
Mr. Arens. Did you know at that time that Mr. Browder was a
member of the Connnunist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the article I just
mentioned appearing in the New Masses in April 1941, and ask you if
you wrote that article ?
Mr. Murphy. This could be the reprint of a letter that I wrote.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 60," see appendix, p. 7198.)
Mr. Arens. That is what I mean.
Mr. Murphy. You said did I Avrite that article. There is a dif-
ference.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scherer. What difference?
Mr. Murphy. Surely you should know as a person who writes an
article as a newsman I know the difference. The person who writes
a letter and has it printed is not necessarily an article unless it is clear.
Mr. Scherer. Let us not quibble.
Mr. Murphy. I am not quibbling. I am here. Representative
Scherer, being smeared and being placed in a position as a Negro who
still is not free and you tell me about quibbling.
Mr. Arens. Would you tell us whether or not you were on the com-
mittee to elect Ben Davis in New York City?
Mr. Murphy. I am quite sure I could have been.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Ben Davis is and was at
the time you were on the committee to elect him a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I think Ben Davis ran on the Communist Party
ticket and was elected.
Mr. Arens. Were you on the committee to support him ?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I must have been on the committee.
Mr. Arens. Did you know at the time he ran he was a Communist?
Mr. Murphy. I just got through saying that he ran on the Commu-
nist Party ticket.
Mr. Arens. Did you contribute to a book entitled "Inside Story of
the T^egion," which attacks the American legion ?
Mr. Murphy. T^t me see the book. I am sure I could have. I
don't know. T would have to look at it to see because I have always
regarded the American Ijegion as an organization which by no means
6212 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOlSr
gave Negro veterans their rights and does not even today. If dis-
criminates against them. I could have.
Mv. Arens. Did j^ou participate in the formulation of that book
■svhich attacks the American Legion ?
INIr. Murphy. Yon asked the question did I participate in the for-
mulation of this book?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Murphy. This seems to be an acknowledgment of people who
talked to the author of the book. So what do you mean?
Mr. Arens. Did you contribute to that book, give material to the
author?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I talked to the author of this book about
my views about the American Legion.
*Mr. Moulder, Are the quotations in the book an expression of your
views.?
Mr. Murphy. He would have to identify those quotations.
Mr. Moulder. I mean the point he refers to in the book.
Mr. Scherer. He has already answered it.
Mr. FoRER. It is just an introductory page of acknowledgments.
Mr. Murphy. This author, I am sure, discussed the whole question
of the Negro veterans' attitude toward the American Legion ?
Mr. Arens. Have you been a sponsor for the American Youth for
Democracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I am quite sure I could have been.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a sponsor of the American Youth for
Democracy ?
Mr. Murphy. Have you got anything to show me ?
Mr. Arens. I will lay before you a document, Tribute to Jewish
Youth, on the occasion of the fourth anniversary of American Youth
for Democracy, in which appears a list of sponsors, including George
B. Murphy, Jr., and ask you if you are he?
(Witness consults with his counsel.)
Mr. Murphy. Yes, my nanie appears there.
Mr. Arens. Did 3'ou participate in a joint statement to the President
of the United States and the Attorney General on behalf of the na-
tional leaders of the Communist Party who were arrested under the
Smith Act and subsequently tried and convicted ?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I did that.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now of ]:)hotostatic copy of The Worker,
Sunday, August 29, 1948. One of the endorsers of a statement of
Negro-Americans to the President and the Attorney General is George
B. Murphy, Jr. Are you the "Murphy" listed as an endorser?
Mr. ]MuRPiiY. Yes, that is my name.
Mr. Arens. T\^io solicited you to sign that ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't remember. I am quite sure if I received a
communication it might have come from the members who were get-
ting up the list, but I don't recall any individual who solicited me.
That would l)e in conformity with my views of defending these people.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 61a, b," see appendix, pp. 7199,
7200.)
Mr. Arens. Who solicited you to participate in the Progressive
Party program? I understood you to say that you were an officer or
an employee of the Progressive Party for some time.
Mr. Murphy. Yes, that is right. I don't recall exactly how I came
to be employed.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6213
Mr. Arens. Who was your immediate superior?
Mr. Murphy. Mr. Beany Baldwin, C. B. Baldwin.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Mr. Baldwin is or has been
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. MuRrHY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been identified with the Southern Con-
ference for Human Welfare ?
Mr. Murphy. I certainly have. I want to state here that not only
was I identified with it but I supported its ideas because there again,
this Southern Conference, even though it has been pilloried and slan-
dei'ed through the years, the great work that conference did helped to
give our people a sense of confidence of their rights in the South where
even today people are being killed and denied the right to vote, and
that again I want to refei lo the fact that in terms of feeling about
their Americanism, Mr. Chairman, I think it is of the highest sort.
Mr. ScHERER. Let me say to you, sir, listening to you today, that
it makes it very difficult — persons like you make it very difficult for
persons like me who all our legislative lives have supported the civil
rights legislation and have supported the things you say you are
fighting for — you just make it so much more difficult and our task
so much more difficult.
Mr. MuRPPiY. Representative Scherer, my reply to that would be
this : I have listened to you. My reply to that would be I am really not
concerned how difficult it makes it for you. Representative Scherer. I
am concerned about my rights and the rights of my people. I am not
concerned about niceties of feelings when you are dealing with 17
million people, many of whom have been lynched and denied the right
to vote and even in the last elections denied the right to vote. I don't
think your remarks in that respect, though I have respect for your
feelings, are on a level with my feelings.
Mr. Scherer. No, it just hurts 3^our people. You hurt 3^our people.
Mr. Murphy. I don't think I do hurt my people at all. I have never
had any feeling that I would lift my hand and have it cut off before
I ever felt I would do anything to hurt my people. That is your opin-
ion. Representative Scherer.
jNIr. Arens. Are you concerned about the activities in the T%ited
States of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know what you are talking about when you
say "Communist conspiracy."
Mr. Arens. Are you concerned with the Communist Party activi-
ties in the United States?
Mr. Murphy. I am concerned with fighting for the rights of my
people and joining whatever groups which in my view help push for-
ward and develop the ideas of a Declaration of Independence and the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights which my people also helped with
their blood to put into the Constitution. That is where I stand on
that question.
Mr. Moulder. In connection with that statement, do you think the
Counnunist Party represents the principles that you have just stated?
Mr. Murphy. I have never felt in my life, Mr. Moulder, under any
circumstances, privately or publicly, that in my view the Commu-
nists could be construed as people who are doing an3^thing against the
I'ights of my people.
85333— 57— pt. 1 6
6214 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Moulder. I mean do you think they are the champions and do
you think that they are the party that would be the solution to what
you complain about?
Mr. Murphy. On the question of whether or not they would be the
solution that is a matter for history to decide. We are not yet
free. So I cannot come to a final conclusion on that.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a participant in a civil rights session
attacking the FBI?
Mr. Murphy. What is the name of that ?
Mr. Arkns. Call to a Bill of Rights Conference, in New York City
in July 1949. I lay before you documents which might refresh your
recollection.
(Documents marked "Exhibits No. f)2a-d," see appendix, pp. 7201-
7204.)
Mr. Murphy. I want to be sure which question you are asking.
Mr. Arens. That is the meeting.
Mr. Forer. He is talking about my speech at some conference.
Mr. Murphy. I want to say this about that: I am quite sure that
as a Negro who has also had visited on liim on the streets even in
Washington, as well as FBI agents coming to his office questioning
his Americanism, I would be a part of such a committee because I
don't think under any circumstances that that kind of a situation,
attacking me, a citizen in the community here, and attempting to make
me feel among my own people, among the community, that I am some
kind of a spy or some kind of un-American person.
That is what I meant, Representative Moulder, when I said this
record of this committee attempts to delimit how and under what cir-
cumstances within the framework of the Constitution the Negro people
in this country may protest for their rights. It denies them the right
to support other political organizations which may be in disrepute but
who they feel honestly are moving in tlie direction of giving us our
rights.
Mr. Scherer. The FBI called on you not because you are a Negro.
Don't try to leave that impression.
Mr. Murphy. You are not defining for me why I believe the FBI
called on me. Why they called on me partly because I am a Negro.
Certainly they did that. They hope to scare this Negro and scare
others.
Mr. Scherer. Let me get it in the record. They called on him be-
cause he was a member of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Murphy. That is your opinion about it. That is what I mean
about the wliite supremacy attitude. You are expressing it right
now. You liave no respect for what Negroes feel or think. Just-,
what Representative Scherer thinks must go. I don't agree with that.
Mr. Scherer. A typical Communist speech.
Mr. Murphy. That is also covering up the genuine conspiracy that-
I am talking about. So you think when a Negro stands up before a
committee of Congress and defends the rights of his people and their
right of fi-ee association it becomes a Connnunist speech. You don't
answer the question why you haven't called tlie White Citizens' Coun-
cil, the Kn Khix Klnn in liere, and tlieso groups tliat have oi'ganized
here to despoil tlie Wasliington school system. You don't answer
that question. You merely give me your opinion about me. That is
your freedom of action to do. And my freedom to reject it.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6215
Mr. ScHERER. Your speech now indicates why I said men like you
of the Negro race make it difficult for men like me, who have fought
for tlie very things you say you are fighting for, to do something.
Mr. Murphy. I don't believe you. Representative Scherer. I don't
believe you.
Mr. Scherer. Let me tell you this
Mr- Murphy. You may shout from the housetops and 1 would refuse
to believe you.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article in the
New York Times of July 17 and 18, 1949, in which another Bill of
Rights Conference was held in New York City and a resolution calling
for restored civil liberties for members of the Socialist Workers
Party, a Trotskyite organization, was decisively rejected by 800 dele-
gates to the conference. Were you in attendance at that conference
in which they decisively rejected the civil rights of the Trotskyite
branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I am quite sure I could have been present.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 62a, b," see appendix, pp. 7205,
7206.)
Mr. Arens. Was it your position that they should not restore the
rights of the Trotskyite branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I didn't express any position one way or the other,
as I recall.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat is your position now ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as I have indicated before.
Mr. Scherer. This man becomes strangely silent when we ask him
the pertinent questions but he makes long speeches with great vigor
otherwise.
Mr. Murphy. I am not going to sit here and accept those snide re-
marks from you. Yes, I am not making speeches, I am testifying.
Because I testify a little loudly that becomes a speech. That is what
many white people in this country wlio want to deny Negroes their
rights attempt to do. "You must speak softly. You must do it the
way we within our white supremacy attitude feel is the proper way."'
That is what you are saying. That is my reply to you about your
remarks about me.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the National Nonpartisan Com-
mittee To Defend the Rights of the 12 ( 'ommunist Leaders ?
Mr. Murphy. I am not now, as I recall, a part of any such committee.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time ?
Mr. Murphy. I might have been.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which includes a list of
persons in the process of formation of that committee, wherein your
name appears. I ask you whether or not you were a member of that
organization ?
Mr. Murphy. If my name is on there I was a member.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 64a, b," see appendix, pp. 7207,
7208.)
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in a National Legislative Confer-
ence on Naturalization and Deportation held January 25-26, 1948,
under the auspices of the American Connnittee for Protection of
Foreign Boi-n liere in Washington? I lay befoie you a photostatic
copy of its program.
6216 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Murphy. This is back in 1948, but I am quite sure I was a mem-
ber of the committee then.
Mr. Arexs. Did you participate in the establishment of a National
Committee for the Protection of West Indian Americans under the
auspices of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
in 1951?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I was.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green was on the stand earlier today and was a
little bashful about some of these organizations created by the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Can you tell us some
of the organizations which that committee recruited in order to effec-
tuate its legislative or political program ?
JSIr. Murphy. I don't know of any such organizations.
Mr. Arens. Did the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born have an auxiliary or branch in New York City ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know. They might have.
Mr. Arens. You were honorary chairman?
Mr. Murphy. An honorary chairman does not know all the detail
workings of an organization.
Mr. Arens. Did you know whether the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born had a branch in Los Angeles ?
jNIr. Murphy. They might have. I am quite sure they might have.
Mr. Arens. Did they have a branch in the Midwest?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know for a fact about all of these places.
Mr. Arens. Tell us about those that you do know about.
Mr. Murphy. I don't know of any as a fact.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Pearl Hart ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Wliere was she from ?
Mr. Murphy. As far as I know she was from Chicago and she is an
estimable lawyer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she is a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that on the basis I iiidieated in the
past.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the formulation of any of these
subsidiary organizations, which the testimony thus far shows to be
over 100 which were created by the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Murphy. No.
Mr. Arens. What is your present relationshij) to tlie .Vmerican
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Murphy. I am a sponsor.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been disassociated with jxjsition of
honoi-ary chairman ?
Ml-. AlrRPiiY. As I answered before, I think it is a little or so ago.
I said 1 could not give the time when I was no longer cocliairnian.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a document beariiig date
of December 11, 1954, which pertains to a National Conference to
Defend the Rights of the Foreign Born Americans tinder the auspices
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. "The
conference banquet was held on Saturday evening. George B. Mur-
phy, Jr., of Washington, D. C, presided." Do you recall that con-
ference?
(Document marked "Exhibit VI," see appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
COMMU>;iST POLITICAL fcUB^■ERSION 6217
Mr. Murphy, ^^^lat was the date ?
Mr. Arexs. 1954 in December.
Mr. Murphy. If it said I presided I ain sure I did. In my capacity
as honorary cocliairman I presided at a number of conferences.
Mr. Arexs. Tlie speakers inchided Alec Jones, executive secretary
of tlie XeAv York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Did you
kno"sv him ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arex's. Did you know him as executive secretary of that
organization ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know whether he was executive secretary at
that time or not. He might have been.
Mr. Arens. Did 3'ou know whether or not he was a Communist?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as I indicated in the past.
Mr. Arens. How about Yanez, secretary of the Eastside Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born? Did you know her?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall the name. There are a number of people
I didn't know personally.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harriet Barron ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes ; I know her very well.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she was a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Apjens. Did you know Pettibone Smith ?
Mr. Murphy. The name is not "Pettibone Smith." The name is
Prof. Louise Pettibone Smith. She at one time was cochairman with
me for the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
Mr. Arens. Did you know Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as indicated.
Mr. Arens. You held a number of panels. You had a panel on
organized labor which was reported on by Louis Weinstock. Did you
know him ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in this session?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether he was a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as indicated.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Frank H. Ilchuk?
Mr. Murphy. Not offhand.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Murphy. I already answered that question in the affirmative.
Mr. Arex's. Did you know Constantine Ossip ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall the name.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Leroy Fisher ?
6218 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall the name.
Mr. Arens. Wasn't Ossip treasurer of the committee ?
Mr. INIuRPHY. I don't recall the name I said.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Evelyn Abelson ?
Mr. Murphy. Not offhand, I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Helen Lewis?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall that name offhand.
Mr. Arens. I res^Dectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that would con-
clude the interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. Thank you all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Xeedleman. I am Isidore G. Needleman, attorney, I represent
a Negro witness who if she does not reurn to New York and misses
another day would lose her job. I respectfully urge you call her at
this time.
Mr. Arens. We would like to have Mrs. Funn take the stand.
Mr. Moulder. We will take Mrs. Funn and then call your client.
Mrs. Funn, I believe, your name is now, Mrs. Swan.
Mrs. Swan, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you arc about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the tinitli,
so help you God ?
Mrs. Swan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY FUNN SWAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Swan. My name is Dorothy Swan. From Jamaica, N. Y. I
am a teacher in the schools of the city of New York.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Commmiist Party ?
Mrs. Swan. Yes, I have.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell the committee in resume form the period
of 3^our membership in tlie Communist Party and a thumbnail sketch
of your career in the party.
Mrs. Swan. I joined the Communist Party in May 1939 and I left
the Communist Party in the latter part of December 1946. During
the time of my membership in the Communist Party up until Feb-
ruary 1 of 1943 I was simultaneously a teacher in the New York City
school system. I resigned in 1943 and did not become a part of the
New York City school system again until February 1947. My Com-
mmiist activity consisted of acting as the executive secretary of the
Brooklyn Council of the National Negro Congress, approximately
in 1940 and 1941.
I then acted as the administrative secretary of the National Negi'o
Labor Council, also a Communist-front organization, from aj^proxi-
mately September 1942 to about July of 1943. In 1943, November,
I became the legislative representative of the National Negro Con-
gress and came to Washington and was in and out of Washington,
establishing residence here, however, for the period of November 1943
until December 1946.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership in the Com-
munist Party did you have occasion to make the acquaintanceship of
a person by the name of George B. Murphy ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6219
Mrs. 8\VAN. Yes, I did. When I became the executive secretary
of the Brooklyn Council of the National Negro Congress Mr. Murphy
was the achninistrative secretary, nationally, of the organization with
offices here at that time in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Arens. Did you know whether or not Mr. Murphy was a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Swan. I did not know it immediately upon my going into the
National Negi'o Congress but subsequently I did find out that he was
a member of the Communist Party, due to the fact that we met in
closed Communist Party meetings with Communist Party members
only. Some of those meetings had to do with the policy to be laid
down and carried out by the National Negro Congress Communist
Party members working in the National Negro Congress.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify George B. Murphy, the
man who preceded you to the witness stand, as a person known by you
to have been a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Swan. I do, sir.
Mr. Arens. For the purpose of identification, are you of the Negro
race ?
Mrs. Swan. I am. May I also say that Mr. Murphy's expressions
today were the feelings of perhaps many of us in the years past and the
reason for many of us having joined the Communist Party, but I can-
not associate with his expressions today and I do not feel that he
speaks for anyone but himself.
Mr. Moulder. But he seeks to defend his position by claiming he is
a Negro.
Mrs. Swan. That is his say-so. I just am speaking for myself.
1 cannot go along with the statements made here today, made by him,
as far as I am affected.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership in the Commu-
nist Party, did you know a person by the name of Dorothy Strange?
Mrs. Swan. I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you knoAv her as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Swan. I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify Dorothy Strange who, to
your certain knowledge, was a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Swan. I do.
Mr. Arens. How did you first know her ?
Mrs. Swan. I met her first in November of 1943 in Washington,
D. C. I was told by Edward Strong, the executive secretary of the
National Negro Congress, who employed me to become the legislative
representative here, that I would go to Washington and make contact
with one of our people, meaning one of our Communist Party mem-
bers. This person, Dorothy Strange, would be the one who would
arrange my contacts with the members of the Communist Party in
leadership here in Washington, D. C. I came to Washington.
I met Dorothy Strange and it was through her tliat I did meet the
organizer for the Washington Communist Party, who sat down with
Dorothy Strange and me and planned how we should organize the
Washington Council of the National Negro Congress and some of
my responsibilities as legislative representative on the national scale
for the same organization.
6220 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Is Dorothy Strange in the hearing room ?
Mrs. Swan. She was.
Mr. Arexs. Would 3^011 kindly stand, Mrs. Strange?
(Woman stands.)
Mrs. Swan. That is the young lady I knew as Dorothy Strange,
who became administrative secretary of the Washington Council of
the National Negro Congress at that time.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify the lady who stood up
in the second row of the hearing room as a person who was known
by you to be a member of the Conununist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Swan. I do.
Mr. Arens. During your membership in the Cbmmunist Party and
in your activity in the National Negro Congress, did you reach a
conclusion in your own mind respecting the sincerity of the Commu-
nist Party to serve the legitimate interests of the Negro race?
Mrs. Swan. I came to a very definite conclusion that the Com-
munist Party was not the organization to serve the best interests of
the Negro race. The Communist Party had one thing in mind and
that was the violent overthrow of the Government of the United States
and they would use whatever means they found at hand or that were
made available to carry through their particular conspiracy against
the Government of the United States. I feel that I as many other
Negroes, were a pawn in the hands of the leaders of the Communist
Party during the time that I was a member of it.
For those reasons, and others of the same kind, I disassociated
myself from the Communist Party and went back to the work that
I felt I belonged in and should never have left.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. Thank you, Mrs. Swan.
Mr. Moulder. We want to express our appreciation for your sin-
cere and frank testimony and may I add that I wish to compliment
you for your statement in defense of the Negro people. Our obser-
vation is that there are far less members of the Communist Party
who are Negroes in proportion to the population than any other people.
Mrs. Swan. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. I think that Mr. Murphy's testimony was not because
of being colored but because of his philosophy, and he defends it by
saying it is because he is a Negro and gaining sympathy.
Mrs. Swan. I don't know what you want to say but I am in com-
plete agreement with you. I should say, yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I want to concur that the testimony before this com-
mittee has shown conclusively that the Negro race has resisted more
than any other group, the attempts of the Communist Party to make
them pawns, as you have just testified.
Mr. Moulder. Because of their grievances, and I would say, just
grievances.
( Witness excused. )
Mr. Arens. The next witness will be Dorothy Strange.
Mr. Moulder. Mrs. Strange, do you swear that the testimony you
are about to give shall be the ti'uth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth so help you God ?
Mrs. Strange. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6221
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY S. STRANGE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDIEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Strange. My name is Dorothy Strange. I live in New York,
at 601 West 149th Street, New York City. 1 work at the Long Island
College Hospital.
Mr. Arens. How long have you worked there?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. You didn't understand me, I am sure.
Mr. Moui.nER. He asked j'ou how long yovi had worked there ?
Mrs. Strange, Not quite 2 years.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena served
upon you by the House Un-American Activities Committee?
Mrs. Strange. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Strange. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, Counsel.
]\Ir. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Strange, did you hear the testimony a few moments
ago of Mrs. Swan before this committee?
Mrs. Strange. You mean Funn ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. F-u-n-n. She was under oath and identified you
as a Communist. Was she lying or telling the truth when she iden-
tified you as a Communist ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your
present employment in the hospital ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You worked for the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born in New York City ; did you not ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
aforesaid statement.
Mr, jMoulder. On any other questions you wish to claim the privi-
lege under the Constitution, you may say j^ou decline to answer for
the same reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Abner Green testified before the Subversive Activi-
ties Control Board that you wei-e at one time dii-ector of the naturali-
zation aid service of the National Conuiiittee for Protection of Foreign
Born, Was he lying or telling the truth ?
Mrs, Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. IMouLDER. For the same reasons?
Mrs, Strange. For the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you, Mrs. Strange, a photostatic
copy of an article in the Daily Worker, New York, of November 13,
1944. In this article the following appears :
Dorothy Strange, press director of the Coinmunist Political Assof'iation, in
Washington, U. C, is one of several instructors in a class for members being
6222 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
conducted by the Uuited Cafeteria and Restaurant Workers Local 471 in the
Capital.
Look at that article if you please and tell us if you are the person
who was conducting those classes?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question for the stated reasons.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been associated with the National Negro
Congress ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of ar. article
appearing in the Washington Times Herald of August 3;), 1944,
in which the following appears :
Mrs. Dorothy S. Strange, Negro feminist and student of racial pjolitics, has
been named press director of the Communist Political Association of Wash-
ington, it was announced yesterday. A graduate of Miner Teachers College,
Mrs. Strange is a member of the Washington Council of the National Nejfro
Congress. ♦ * *
This is dated August 15, 1944. I lay that document before you
and ask if you are the person identified in that document?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer this question on the aforestated
reasons.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. G5," see appendix, p. 7209.)
Mr. Arens. AVliat is your education ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that she be or-
dered to answer the question as to her education.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
(Witness consults with her counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Counsel is referring to your formal education and
schooling, if any.
Mrs. Strange. You mean that I graduated from the schools in
Washington ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; your formal education in schools.
]Mrs. Strange. Grade school, high school, and college.
Mr. Arens. What degree do you hold in college? Do you hold
an A. B. degree ?
(Witness consults with her counsel.)
Mrs. Strange. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. How many years did you spend in college?
Mrs. Strange. Four.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Mary Stalcup
Markward ?
Mrs. Str.\nge. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
aforesaid statement.
Mr. Arens. Mary Stalcup Markward identified you as a Commu-
nist before this committee while she was under oath. Was she lying
or telling the truth ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason
I stated before.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what you have done in the course of the last
several years in the line of public speaking. You seem to be a little
shy before the committee. Tell us, have you been engaged in address-
ing rallies and groups over the country ?
COMAiUNioT POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6223
Mrs. S'lHANGE. Your honor, I refuse to answer that question on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Have you as a member of the Washington Peace Mobi-
lization addressed a Youth Congress meeting in Maryhmd?
Mrs. Straxge. I refuse to answer that question for the aforesaid
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Do you speak Spanish ?
(Witness consults with her counsel.)
Mrs. Straxge. No ; I don't speak Spanish.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been in charge of an office of the American
Committee for Protection of FoieJgn Born — its Spanish- American
section, for the Spanish-speaking communities in New York City?
Mrs. Str,vxge, I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you now a photostatic copy — an article
from The Lamp (issue 70, December 1951-January 1952), the official
publication for the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, stating :
Mrs. Dorothy Strange, naturalization aid director for tlie American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born will head the office to handle the special
problems of the West Indian and Spanish-speaking communites.
Look at that article and tell us whether or not you are that individual ?
Mrs. Straxge. I still refuse to answer the question on the basis
of the fifth amendment.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 66a, b." see appendix, pp. 7210,
7211.)
Mr. Arexs. Do you know Rose Nelson ?
Mrs. Straxge. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you a photostatic copy of sm article ap-
pearing in the Daily Worker, April 25, 1952, which says in effect,
"a speaker at a hmclieon honoring Rose Nelson will be Mrs. Dorothy
S. Strange, naturalization aid director of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born." I ask you if you are that person?
Mrs. Straxge. Your honor, I still refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this con-
cludes the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. MorLDER. Mrs. Strange, you are excused as a witness. You
may claim your witness fees with the clerk of the committee.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will stand in recess until 10 a. m.,
in the morning.
(Thereupon, at 5:10 p. m., November 12, tlie committee recessed,
to reconvene at 10 a. m., Tuesday, November 13, 1956.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
public hearing
The subcommittee met, pureuant to recess, at 10 : 15 a. m., in the
caucus room; Old House Office Building, Hon. Gordon H. Scherer,
])residing.
Committee members present : Representative Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; Donald T. Appell,
investigator.
Mr. Scherer. The committee will come to order. Counsel may
proceed.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN LATJTNER— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, you were sworn yesterday ?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your service in the Communist
Party, Mr. Lautner, did you have an opportunity to gain information
respecting the emphasis by the Communist Party in nationality groups
and the organizational structure of the Communist Party in mider-
taking to take over nationality groups ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly explain to the committee what this
structure is, and the techniques and objectives of the Communist Party
in that regard?
Mr. Lautner. It so happens that for a number of years I was as-
signed by the party on this specific phase of activity, being a member
of the nationality groups commission of the Communist Party. It
was always emphasized how important it was for the party to do
work, Communist activity, in the nationality groups. The main rea-
son projected at all times was the fact that in the basic industries of
the country, such as mining, steel and metal, auto, rubber, textile, the
largest segments of the nationality groups were occupied in these
industries. In order to successfully build the party influence in the
basic industries, it was necessary to expand the work of tlie Commu-
nist Party in these nationality groups. The Nationality Groups Com-
mission of the Connnunist Party was that subcomniittee which gave
direction, guidance, and supervision for party policies and party
activities for the central committee in the nationality groups.
The nationality groups commission was composed of leading Com-
munist Partv members who were drawn in from the various national-
I
0225
6226 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ity groups of the Communist Party, such as bureau secretaries, editors
of Communist papers in the various nationality groups. These were
the members of the Nationality (xroups Commission.
In the main it was their function to interpret the party decisions as
to the day-to-day tactical activities of the party to the^se nationality
group bureaus.
The Communist Party had a nationality group bureau in the main
nationality groups of the country. These bureaus were supervised
by the nationality groups commission. The nationality groups com-
mission also supervised and checked the newspapers, the Communist
papers in the various national groups, as to how they reflected on the
day to day tactical policies of the Communist Party.
The nationality groups com.mission sponsored conferences in various
national groups. These conferences were aimed to extend the influence
of the Communist Party in that particular national group among the
various mass organizations that were built up in these respective
nationality groups throughout the country.
For example, in the Hungarian national group, the Hungarian
bureau from time to time tried to involve many so-called outside organ-
izations who were not influenced by the Communist Party in various
types of united front activities.
Mr. Arens. What would be an example of a united front activity
in which the Communist Party would undertake to involve the na-
tionality groups?
Mr. Lautner. United front activities that were projected by the
Communist Party itself, such as a united front against fascism, miited
front against so-called repressive legislation, united fronts to build the
trade union movement in the various nationality groups. It depends
on what the party policy or party technique was at that particular
moment when these conferences were projected or these conferences
were called.
One of the biggest united fronts that I recall was during the war
that was built through the Nationality Groups Commission, or in-
itiated by the Nationality Groups Commission — the All-Slav Congress
that was built up just before the war, and during the war when it had
its biggest successes calling big mass conferences. I recall at one
of the conferences a Russian general was invited as one of the princi])al
speakers from the Soviet Union. The Nationality Groups Commis-
sion was the leader and guide for all the activities in the various na-
tionality groups in this particular phase of activity of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. On the basis of your background and experience, could
you tell the committee the number of people in nationality groups who
were under direct or indirect discipline of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Lautner. Some mass organizations were completely under the
domination of the Communist Party. Such a mass organization was
the International Workers Order, which at one time had well over
160,000 members. There were other n\ass organizations that were also
built and were dominated by the Communist Party, but in the main
it Avas a very fluid and flux situation aiming to build the widest pos-
sible contact through united-front activities where the party could
exert its influence over large segments of the so-called nationality
groups of this country.
i
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6227
Mr. Arens. Could you give us just a word description of what is
a united front in Communist Party parlance.
Mr. Lautner. A united front is a coalition around specific issues
of various trends and groups that do not think basically alike, but on
specific issues they will agree to coalesce and work together in order
to achieve certain objectives laid down on the basis of specific situa-
tions. This is what is known as a united-front approach, or a unite_d-
front activity. It does not necessarily mean that if the Communist
Party succeeds in drawing into united-front activities certain groups
that these groups will agree with the fundamental aims or objectives
or principles of the Communist Party. It only means that on a certain
line of action these groups get together, whether they know the spon-
sorship of this line of action or not. That is not the important thing.
They get together and unite in action.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, this series of hearings, as the chairman
announced yesterday, is to consider the Communist counterattack
against the various legislative and executive programs of the Gov-
ernment designed to deal with the Communist menace in this country.
Yesterday one phase of that counterattack was with respect to the
activities of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
and certain of its subsidiary organizations, and organizations which
it was able to create and penetrate.
I should like to ask you on the basis of your background and expe-
rience what part the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born played in this united-front tactic which you have just been
describing.
Mr. Lautner. As far as the Protection of Foreign Born as an or-
ganization is concerned, it was completely dominated and controlled
by the Communist Party as one of its so-called transmission belts or
bridge organizations. When the Protection of Foreign Born projects
any line of action, united- front activities involving other groups
around specific issues, that means the party initiates — the party ini-
tiates — the particular action, and the Protection of Foreign Born
was designated as an organization to carry out that activity for the
Communist Party. It may be that some of these groups that coalesce
with the Protection of Foreign Born on specific issues do not know
the source and the driving initiative that brought this coalition about
or is attempting to bring this coalition about. It may be a valid
action. Nevertheless, it is being led and directed by the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. Did tlie American Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born during the course of your experience in the (\)niniunist
Party create other organizations and penetrate other organizations
which they could use for the objectives of destroying the immigration
system ?
Mr. TjAUTner. To my knowledge from time to time temporary com-
mittees and organizations were organized at all times.
Mr. Arens. \Vliy would the Communist Party seek first of all to
j)enetrate the nationality groups in this country, and secondly, to
undertake to weaken or destroy our protective immigi'ation system?
Mr. Lautner. In the first place, the nationality groups in the eyes
of the Communist Party are a very important group in this country.
6228 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Most of the nationality groups live in big industrial and urban areas.
Nationality groups in the main work in the basic industries. In order
to achieve the basic objectives of the Communist Party, that is, to win
decisive sections of the working class who are in the basic industries,
they have to and must work with the nationality groups and extend
their influence among them.
Why are they trying to influence the changes in the basic immigra-
tion laws in the United States is quite self-evident. The Communist
Party at all times — at all times — tries to tear down any and all pro-
tective laws that give protection, that give security to the existing
order or system in the United States.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, during the course of your experience ip the
Communist Party, did you make the acquaintanceship of a person by
the name of Charles Musil ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship
with him?
Mr. Lautner. The first time I got acquainted with Charlie Musil
is when I joined the Communist Party in 1929. At that time Charlie
Musil was the treasurer of that particular Communist Party organiza-
tion which 1 joined. It was known as the Yorkville unit of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. He was the treasurer of the Communist Party
unit which I joined in 1929.
Mr. Arens. Do you see Mr. Charles Musil in the hearing room
today?
Mr. Lautner. Yes, He is sitting in the third row, second from
the outside.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party, did you know a person by the name of Irving Novick?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Please tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship with
him.
Mr. Lautner. I think it was late in 1941 when the organizational
commission of the party assigned Avro Landy and myself to re-
solve a problem that developed in the Protection of the Foreign Born
at that particular time. There was a dispute between Abner Green
and Mr. Novick, who was the party member responsible to the party,
and in charge of that particular organization at that time. We sat
down with Novick and Abner Green and listened to the differences
that they had. On the basis of tliat hearing, we found that these
differences could not be resolved, and as a result Mr. Novick was re-
moved as head of the Protection of the Foreign Born at that time.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Irving Novick as a Communist?
Mr. Lautner. At that time, yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you look around the hearing room and tell us
if you see the person whom you have just identified as a Communist?
Mr. LAurNER. Yes. He is in the third row, second from the aisle.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party, did you know a person by the name of Rose Russell ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship with her.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6229
Mr. Lautner. To my recollection the last time I saw Rose Russell
was in May 1948. The New York State leadership of the Commu-
nist Party called a meeting at 100 Fifth Avenue in the law offices of
Unger, Fleischer & Freedman.
Mr. ScHERER. What was that law office ?
Mr. Lautner. Abe Unger, Dave Freedman, and Louis Fleischer.
They were known as the party lawyers.
We had a meeting in the library room. The topic of the meeting
was the expulsion of Dr. Bella Dodd from the Communist Party, and
what measures to take U) destroy the influence of Bella Dodd, particu-
larly among attorney- ;uid in the teaching profession where she en-
joyed a lot of influence.
Mr. ScHERER. In what year was this meeting held in which you dis-
cussed the expulsion of Bella Dodd ?
Mr. Lautner. I think it was 1949. All I know is that it was just
about 2 months before the end of the school year. We had to race
against time to meet with all the schoolteacher groups in the party
to explain why the party had to expel Bella Dodd. Rose Russell,
among others, was a participant in this meeting as one of the leaders of
the party in the educational field.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, during the course of your experience in
the Communist Party, did you know a person by the name of Hugo
Gellert^
Mr. Ij.\utner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. G-e-1-l-e-r-t.
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Please tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship
with Hugo Gellert.
Mr. Lautner. I attended meetings of — extended bureau meetings —
enlarged Hungarian bureau meetings where Hugo Gellert took part.
The last time I saw Hugo Gellert is when we had a discussion and
he was telling me that he was going to Australia at that time. I
think it was somewhere in the late 1940's.
Mr. Arens. Do you identify him as a person known to you to have
been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you see him sitting in the hearing room today ^
Mr. Lautner. Yes. He is in the fourth row. I think the second
chair from the aisle.
Mr. Arens. Do you know the man sitting behind Mr. Gellert ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. That is Mr. Patterson.
Mv. Arens. Who is he?
Mr. Lautner. He was a former nieniber of the national coinniittee
of the Communist Party.
Mr Arens. What is his first name, please.
Mr, Lautner. William Patterson. Bill Patterson.
Mr. Arens. He was what?
Mr. Lautner. He was head of the CRC, the Civil Rights Con-
gress, for the Communist Party.
I\fr. Arens. How effective was the Communist Party during your
experience in the party in influencing the nationality groups oi the
country ?
Mr. Lautner. We can gage by the influence of the TWO. Numer-
ically it had about 160,000 members. It was a multinational organ-
85333— 57— pt. 1 7
6230 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ization. They had all sorts of sections in the IWO, like the Hun-
garian section, the Italian section, Croatian section, Jewish section,
and whatnot. Also, in every language, in every nationality group,
they had periodicals and new^spapers. Some of the national groups
had daily newspapers with tens of thousands of circulation.
Mr. Arens. To what extent did the Communist Party during your
experience control the foreign- language press?
Mr. Lautner, I recall I read in some party reports that the foreign-
language press controlled by the Communist Party had a readership
of well over a hundred thousand. That was contrasted with the
negligible readership of the Daily Worker. The question was posed,
how come the Daily Worker circulation and readership is so small
compared to the extremely large, way-out-of-proportion circulation
and readership of the language press controlled by the party. Just
exactly to what extent the party influence was in the nationality
groups, I cannot gage, but possibly the 1948 Progressive Party vote
would be one indication, which was close to a million. But it was
pretty close to a million in the United States.
Mr. Arens. Do you identify Rose Russell as a person known by
you to be a Communist ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes; definitely. She attended a State leadership
meeting of the Communist Party where strictly party business and
nothing else was discussed, and how to deal with the expulsion of
Bella Dodd, and what measures to take to make that expulsion stick
and be most effective. I can't imagine any reason for a nonparty
person to be in on a very confidential meeting of the State leadership.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever connected with a foreign-language pub-
lication of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What publication was that?
Mr. Lautner. That was the Uj Elore, also known as the New
Forward. Later on in 1945 and 1946 I was connected with the Hun-
garian Daily Journal.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, as the chairman announced yesterday,
the committee is conducting this series of hearings considering the
general subject of Communist political subversion whereby the party
has a counterattack against congressional committees, against anti-
Communist legislation, and anti-Communist governmental policies.
To what extent during your experience in the Communist Party did
the Communists have a concerted, organized drive, to discredit con-
gressional committees, to weaken the security provisions of the various
laws and programs designed to deal W'ith the Communist menace?
Mr. Lautner. In the first place, the Communist Party always
attacked congressional committees for various reasons. At this par-
ticular time, this is one phase of activity in which a lot of party en-
ergy and forces are diverted. The party finds itself quite isolated and
evidently tliey are making a desperate effort to gain public influence
and public support on an issue which nuiy be a very potent issue as
far as a hirge section of the American people are concerned, but
particularly the nationality groups.
From the party point of view it is a very good issue on wliich to
work and through which to work and influence elements in the na-
tionality groups, and gain new support for the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6231
Mr. ScHERER. To what particular piece of legislation are you
referring ?
Mr. Lautner. The Walter-McCarran Act. There is a lot of criti-
cism and opposition to various sections of that law.
Mr. Arens. To what extent has the Communist Party been success-
ful in engendering a false fear in the minds of the nationality groups
with respect to the security provisions of the Immigration and Na-
tionalit}'^ Act ?
Mr. Lautner. I would not know that. I would not know that
because I don't pay much attention to the nationality groups at this
particular time.
Mr. Scherer. You got out of the party in 1950. Was that your
testimony v
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. You say you do not pay much attention to national-
ity gi-oup problems.
Mr. Lautner. In the last few years.
Mr. Scherer. In the last few years.
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Have you continned to follow Communist Party
activities in the United States ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Am I correct in my recollection that recently the
Communist Party in Norway and Sweden has denounced the Rus-'
sians for their conduct in Hungary?
Mv. Lautner. The New York Times has an item in this morning's
edition where the Communist parties raised certain questions in rela-
tion to the Soviet intervention in the internal affairs of Hungary.
Mr. Scherer. What has the Communist Party of the United States
done, if anything, with reference to the recent action of Russia in
Hungary ?
Mr. Lautner. The Communist Party in the United States was
talking out of both sides of its mouth in this situation. There are
certain trends and developments within the Communist Party in the
United States. These trends and developments are in the main on
tactical issues, on techniques and not basic principles. As long as
all these trends will adhere to the basic aims and objectives and prin-
ciples of Marxism-Leninism, they are talking out of both sides of
their mouth. They are the same group, the same elements that were
exposed so many times in the last number of years through various
court procedures. There is no fundamental change in their policy.
Mr. Scherer. In the last week has there been any condemnation of
the Russian action in Hungary by the Communist Party of the United
States?
Mr. Lautner. There was one statement in the Daily Worker by the
National Committee on Hungary. That statement was evidentlj^ a
statement of the majority. Dennis took issue with that statement.
There were statements by individuals like John Gates and others per-
taining to Hungary. There were other statements in the paptu- pro
and con taking issue with statements that did ap])ear in the Daily
Woi'ker. I'ho situation is in a flux as far as unified thinking, or
coherent thinking in the Communist Party is concerned. There is a
discussion in the Communist Pai-^y at the present time dealing with
the past mistakes and shortcomings and violations of democracy and
6232 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
party procedure in the Communist Party, and in the Soviet Union.
As I stated before, as long as this group adheres to the basic principles
of Marxism-Leninism, there is no qualitative change in this group.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, how articulate is the Communist Party
in making its demands registered with the Congress and with govern-
mental agencies via these devious front organizations which we have
been discussing ?
Mr. Lautner. They are past masters in all these tricks.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us some of the tricks of the Communist
Party in having its legislative program and its policies emphasized
and brought to the attention of the Congress ?
Mr. Lautner. The Communist Party normally has a convention
every 2 years. At these conventions they discuss the situation as it
exists at the time of the convention. They draw the lessons of the
past 2 years on their activities. They project a so-called resolution
which vrill serve as a guide in the next coming period. Part of that
resolution deals with legislative activities of the party. The party
has legislative commissions, legislative directors, that in the main are
responsible for carrying out the party activities in this specific field.
Legislative conferences are called on the State level and on the na-
tional level. Various other individuals and groups are induced to
push forward the party policies as they are to be applied in the legisla-
tive field, and as they are contained in the resolution adopted by the
conventions.
Mr. Arens. How did they multiply their numerical strength via
other groups and organizations?
Mr. Lautner. By diligent work and trying to influence and get
close to as many individuals and people as possible who partially
agree on specific issues with the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Do they create other organizations in front of them-
selves for that purpose?
Mr. Lautner. Yes, always. The party needs these transmission
belts and organizations because if the party would have to do all of
these things they would be nothing but a sectarian and an ineffective
group. They need all types of organizations and groups and people
to carry out the party activities.
Mr. Arens. How would you appraise the strength or effectiveness
of the Communist conspiracy in this counterattack, which the chair-
man commented on yesterday, against the anti-Communist legislation
and the anti-Communist committees?
Mr. Lautner. How would I
Mr. Arens. How would you appraise the effectiveness and strength
of their counterattack? Is it serious?
Mr. Lautner. It is serious.
Mr. Arens. How serious is it ?
Mr. Lautner. It is serious because it has an appeal particularly to
that element among the nationality groups that would be personally
affected by the Walter-McCarran Act as it stands right now. That
segment may listen to the party activity and party program and the
voice of the party in this relation. But that effectiveness would be
negated and can be negated by exposing the source, and where it comes
from and for what reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. Doesn't the seriousness arise from the fact that the
agitation for the repeal of anti-Communist legislation is covered up
COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6233
by the Communist Party through the use of other organizations, rather
than the agitation emanating from the Communist Party itself?
Mr. Lautner. That is the subversive nature of the whole campaign.
They cannot come forward because then they would be isolated and
ineffective. They have to employ others to do their work.
Ml*. ScHEKER. That is, if I, as a Member of Congress, would receive
a bulletin or a memorandum dealing with the repeal of some anti-
Communist legislation, and that memorandum was signed by the
Communist Party, it would go in the wastebasket without my even
looking at it.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. But a memorandum coming from an organization
that has been set up, dominated and controlled by the Communist
Party, but bears a seemingly respectable name, like the name of the
organization we referred to yesterday — I can't remember the name —
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest — a memorandum
coming to me from such an organization would receive considerable
attention and carry some weight merely because the name appeared
to be a sound and attractive name.
Mr. Lautner. But that would be only a temporary situation.
Mr. ScHERER. Until I learned that that organization had been set
up, controlled, and dominated by the Communists.
Mr. Lautner. In a hearing like this.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the purpose of these hearings, to show that
such organizations are set up for that purpose.
Mr. Lautner. A hearing like this is the best forum to show the
source and who are the ones that are involved in this type of activity.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, we have no further questions of Mr.
Lautner at this time. I respectfully suggest we may want to take
a short recess.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions except to say to Mr.
Lautner, that the committee is deeply grateful for the valuable in-
formation that he has given the Congress. The committee wishes to
thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Scherer. The committee will recess for 10 minutes.
{ Short recess. )
Present following the recess. Representatives Morgan M. Moulder
(presiding) and Gordon H. Scherer.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will come to order, please.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Charles Musil, will you please come forward. Re-
main standing while the chairman administers the oath.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Musil. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CHAELES MUSIL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Musil. My name is Charles Musil, 3417 East 64th Street, New
York. I am a newspaperman.
6234 COMJMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing, today, Mr. Musil, in response to a
subpena wliich was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Musil. Yes.
Mr. Arens, Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr, Musil, Yes,
Mr, Arens, Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr, Needleman. Isidore Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York,
N, Y.
Mr. Arens, What is the establishment with which you are presently
identified ?
Mr, Musil. I am a newspaperman.
Mr. Arens. For what newspaper do you work ?
Mr. Musil. I decline on the ground of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer for what reason?
Mr, Musil, On the ground of the fifth amendment,
Mr. Arens. How long have you been employed at the newspaper
where you are presently engaged ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil, I decline for the same reason previously stated.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to the
employment that you have at the present time ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil, I decline for the same reason previously stated,
Mr, Arens, Do you know a man by the name of John Lautner ?
Mr. Musil. The gentleman who was up here today ?
Mr. Arens, Yes.
Mr, Musil, Yes ; I saw him up here today.
Mr, Arens, Where did you last see him?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated,
Mr. Arens. Just a little while ago Mr. Lautner took an oath before
this committee and said that while he was a member of the Communist
Party he knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Lautner lying or was
he telling the truth ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason previously stated.
Mr. Arens, Do you work for Eussky Golos ?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born?
Mr. Musil. Czechoslovakia.
Mr. Arens. When.
Mr. Musil. December 19, 1900.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Musil, 1921.
Mr. Arens. And are you naturalized ?
Mr. Musil. Yes.
Mr. Arens, When were you naturalized ?
Mr. Musil. 1927.
Mr. Arens. At the time you were naturalized were you a member
of the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6235
Mr. Arens. Did you ever know a man by the name of Vladimir
Houdek?
Mr. MusiL.. What is the name, please ?
Mr. Arens. V-1-a-d-i-m-i-r H-o-u-d-e-k.
Mr. MusiL. To my knowledge I don't know. I couldn't answer yes
or no.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Vrba, who used to
be a commercial attache and head of the Czeclioslovakian nationals at-
tached to the consulate in New York City ?
Mr. MusiL. No.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Matthew Cvetic ?
Mr. MusiL. I saw the name in the papers.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him in any other way ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. MusiL. I didn't hear the question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been with the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason stated before.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, Mr. Musil, a letterhead of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, New York City,
containing certain typewritten or mimeographed language, in which
appears, under the list of officers, "Treasurer, Charles Musil," and I
ask if you are he ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 67," see appendix, p. 7212.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not you are or have been treasurer of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born you would be sup-
plying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?
Mr. Musil. It may.
Mr. Scherer. AVhat is the answer ?
Mr. Musil. It may.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a leaflet of the
American Slav Congress, September, 1946, containing a list of a num-
ber of persons who sent greetings to the Third American Slav Con-
gress, including Charles Musil, vice president, American Slav Con-
gress of Greater New York. Please look at that, sir, and tell us
whether or not you are the Charles Musil alluded to in that document ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 68," see appendix, p. 7213.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the sam.e reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of a club which had
something to do with the United Nations?
(The witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I don't think so.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the U. N. Club of
the Communist Political Association ? If you haven't just deny it.
Mr. Musil. I didn't get the question.
6236 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the executive com-
mittee of the U. N. Club of the Communist Political Association?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Jennie Lenhart ?
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known Zoltan Sxucky?
Mr. MusiL. Could I see the name please ?
Mr. Arens. S-x-u-c-k-y, Zoltan.
Mr. MusiL. No.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was the year in which you finished your formal
education and began work here in the United States ?
Mr. MusiL. I began work in 1921.
Mr. Arens. Where did you work?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I couldn't tell you the name of the places where I was
working.
Mr. Arens. Give us just
Mr. MusiL. It is 35 years ago.
Mr. Arens. What was the first place in which you were employed,
do you recall the nature of the worK ?
Mr. MusiL. It was a cafeteria, and I was working as a dishwasher.
Mr. Arens. What was your next assignment?
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Counsel, I cannot hear half of what the witness
says.
^Ir. MusiL. I was working in a cafeteria as a dishwasher.
Mr. Arens. Where was your next job?
lyir. MusiL. In a machine shop, I think it was. I am not correct on
this.
Mr. Needleman. So that the record won't be confusing to the wit-
ness, may it be understood that he is not necessarily giving them in
consecutive order, so that there will be no question of perjury, and he
is going to try to recollect, but he may skip a job here and there.
Mr. Arens. We understand, and we want his principal employment.
Mr. Moulder. He is testifying to his employment according to his
best recollection.
Mr. Arens. Give us your next job, please ?
Mr. MusiL. I was working as a baker for about 15 years, or 16, or
something like that.
Mr. Arens. That would get us up to around 1940, wouldn't it?
Mr. MusiL. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And what was your next job in 1940 ?
Mr. Mtjsil. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told us the employment
which you had in 1940, you would be supplying information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. MusiL. It may.
Mr. Scherer. Did you say it might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ? When did you come to this country ?
Mr. MusiL. 1921
Mr. Scherer. And you were naturalized when?
Mr. MusiL. In 1927.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Mr. MusiL. I decline to answer for the grounds previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6237
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Musil, according to documents which have
already been introduced into this record, there was a National Confer-
ence to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law held in Chicago in 1953.
According to these documents, the treasurer of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, Mr. Musil, was one of those
present and one of those who gave a report and made an appeal for
funds. Do vou recall being at that conference in Chicago in 1953?
(See exhibit V, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reasons as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in your life towards advocating
changes of any kind in legislation ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr, Arens. Have you engaged in activities designed to influence
legislation ?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Musil. What is that? I don't know, what is that?
Mr. Arens. Are you registered with the United States Congress as
a lobbyist ?
Mr. Musil. No.
Mr. Arens. Wliere were you in December of 1955, do you recall ?
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend a conference in December of 1955 in
Detroit?
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been chairman of a Slovak group of any
kind?
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Don't you remember whether or not you were in Detroit
in 1955 ? That was just last year.
Mr. Musil. I don't know.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. Maybe I was up there, but I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall any trips you made in 1955 last year?
Mr. Musil. In 1955?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. It is 11 months ago.
Mr. Musil. Maybe I did.
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever in Detroit ?
Mr. Musil. Yes, I was in Detroit.
Mr. Scherer. Were you in Detroit last year ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. When were you last in Detroit ?
Mr. Musil. I don't remember. On the date, I don't recall these
dates.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was the nature of your business when you were
in Detroit the last time ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you in Detroit on behalf of the work of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
6238 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, Mr. Musil, a document which is
a letterhead of the 23d Annual National Conference of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, held in Detroit, Mich.,
December of 1955, setting forth in this letter and accompanying docu-
ments a program of activity of this 23d annual national conference.
Would you kindly look at that material which I have just laid before
you, and tell this committee whether or not you were in attendance in
that conference?
(Document marked "Exhibit VII," see appendix, pp. 8406-84:39.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. You say you were naturalized in 1927 ?
Mr. Musil. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time that you became a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you asked at the time you were naturalized
whether you were a member of the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. LIusiL. I don't know. It was in 1927 and I don't have any
recollection of any questions asked at that time.
Mr. ScHERER. If you had been asked that question, what would
your answer have been ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.
]Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You may claim your at-
tendance fees by signing a voucher with the clerk.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Irving Novick, would you please come forward?
Please remain standing wliile the chairman administers an oath to
you.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. NoviCK. I do.
TESTIMONY OF lEVING HOVICK; xlCCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
DAVID COEB
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. NovicK. My name is Irving Novick, and I live at 2526 Yates
Avenue, Bronx, N. Y. I have an office as an immigration consultant
at 11 West 42d Street.
Mr. Scherer. I cannot hear the witness.
Mr. No\t:ck. I am sorry.
Mr. Scherer. What did you say, sir ?
Mr. NovicK. Tlie last part, you mean?
Mr. Scherer. I got as far as you lived on Yates Avenue, in the
Bronx, N. Y.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6239
Mr. NovicK. I have an office as an immigration consultant at 11
West 42d Street, New York.
Mr. Arens. What is the organization ?
Mr. ScHERER. I still didn't understand.
Mr. Arens. He said he has an office as an immigration consultant.
Are you an attorney ?
Mr. NoviCK. No, I am not an attorney, but I was admitted to prac-
tice before the Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. Are you now admitted to practice before the Immi-
gration Service?
Mr. NovicK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Mr. NovicK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. No^^;cK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself ?
Mr. Cobb. My name is David Cobb. I am an attorney in Washing-
ton, and my office address is at 1822 Jefferson Place.
Mr. Arens. What is the name of the organization with which you
are affiliated?
Mr. NoviCK. Well, I am not affiliated with any organization as far
as my work is concerned. However, I have a trade name, Immigrants
Technical Aid Bureau.
Mr. Scherer. I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. He says he has a trade name.
Mr. Scherer. Immigrants Technical Aid Bureau.
Mr. Arens. How long have you had that trade name ?
Mr. NovicK. Since I opened the office. I believe the exact date is
January 23, 1942.
Mr. Arens. Do you advise people with reference to immigration
matters ?
Mr. NoviCK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Do you represent people before the Immigration and
Naturalization Service?
Mr. NovicK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you please stand up?
Mr. Novick, a little while ago, Mr, Lautner took an oath before this
committee and testified that he had been a member of the Communist
Party and while he was a member of the Communist Party he knew
you as a Communist. Look at Mr. Lautner and tell us whether or
not he was lying or telling the truth.
Mr. Novick. Well, sir I listened to Mr. Lautner's testimony, and
he did not state that he knew me as a Communist. I believe what he
said was that he saw me in places in which he presumed I was a Com-
munist.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you return to the stand, then, so
that we can get this record clear, please ?
Mr. Scherer. Before we get Mr. Lautner, let us put the question :
Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. No\^CK. I am afraid I will have to decline to answer this ques-
tion on the grounds of the first amendment as it is the privilege of any-
6240 CORIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
one to have his own opinions, and if this is not sufficient I will invoke
the fifth amendment for fear of self-incrimination.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Novick, look at Mr. Lautner; did you ever know
him before?
Mr. No^^[CK. I have to explain this, f^entlemen, that my memory for
faces is not good. Maybe for the reason that I see a lot of people, and
maybe just a defect naturally, but I do remember seeing Mr. Lautner
and meeting him at Ellis Island, a couple of years, or 2 or 3 years ago.
He stopped me, and called me by name, and he called to my attention
that he knows me. When I stated that I don't recollect seeing him or
knowing him he pointed out that I met him at a Communist meeting
concerning the work of the American Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born. I told him then that I have attended many meet-
ings in connection with the work of the American Committee, and it
is possible even that he could have placed me before in a Communist
meeting, but I did not recall, nor do I recall now, meeting him at any
Communist meeting.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the [American]
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK, That is correct.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you identified with the [Ameri-
can] Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NovicK. In different positions, sir. I was acting secretary at
one time, and I was naturalization aid director most of the time.
Mr. Arens. What was the period of your service with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NovicK. It ended at the end of 1941. To make it exactly, maybe
it was January of 1942. It began somewhere in the early 1930's, either
1930 or 1933 or 1934.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any recollection of serving in any closed
party meetings with Mr. John Lautner?
Mr. NoviCK. As I mentioned before, I don't recall.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever attend any closed party meetings ?
Mr. NovicK. It could be that I attended meetings in connection with
the work of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. I did not ask you that question. My question was,
Did you ever attend any closed party meetings, meetings at which no
one was admitted except Commmiists?
Mr. Novick. I would decline to answer this question.
Mr. Scherer. I don't think we even need to ask Mr. Lautner again;
his testimony is clear.
Mr. Arens. There might be — in view of the observations of the wit-
ness, there might be some ambiguity.
Mr. Scherer. We just gave this man an opportunity to say whether
Mr. Lautner's testimony was correct, when I asked him whether he
was a member of the Communist Party, and he refuses to say whether
he was or was not.
TESTIMONY OP JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Do you have any doubt that this man, Mr. Novick, was
to your certain knowledge a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. There is no doubt in my mind.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6241
Mr. Moulder. May I piii*siie that ? That is calling for a conclusion
on 3'oiir part. Have you stated previously in your testimony the rea-
sons why ?
Mr. Lautxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. He told of the circumstances of the relationship.
Mr. Cobb. May I ask Mr. Lautner a question ?
Mr. Arexs. Cross examination isn't permitted.
Mr. Moulder. What is your question ?
Mr. Cobb. As of what time are you talking that you have a belief ?
Mr. Molder. I will ask the question.
Mr. Lautner. The last incident with Mr. Novick happened, as he
pointed out, either in December of 1941 or Januarj' of 1942, and there
were four of us at the meeting — you, Mr. Novick, and Mr. Greene and
Mr. Landy and mj'self , and we tried to resolve the conflict that existed
between you and Abner Green in the protection of the foreign born at
that time, and it was resolved not in your favor because you were
removed as acting secretary at that time. It should stand out in your
mind because it is one of the highlights in your life.
Mr. Moulder. Very well.
TESTIMONY OF IRVING NOVICK— Eesumed
]Mr. Moulder. Now, Mr. Novick, you have heard Mr. Lautner's testi-
mony and the statement he just made, with which you are now con-
fronted. Do you wish to deny or affirm it ?
^fr. No^^CK. I could only say this, that I don't have any liighlights
that I remember in that respect. I don't recall any major conflicts
with Mr. Green. I do not recall tliis particular meeting, although it
is possible that I met mider circumstances described by the gentleman,
impressing him the way it did. I met or I would meet with anyone
in connection with the work of the American Committee, and I did not
ask any questions who they were.
Mr. Scherer. The pertinent question is, Did Mr. Lautner tell this
committee an untruth just a minute ago, when he said that you were a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I would decline to answer that question.
IVIr. Arexs. Now, Mr. Novick, when you were with the [American]
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, were you at any time act-
ing secretary ?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you noAv a photostatic copy of a letter dated
January 5, 1940, signed by Irving Novick and written on the letter-
head of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. It
is addressed to the American Civil Liberties Union and acknowledges
the receipt of $25. Kindly look at that signature and tell us whether
it is ^our signature and if it is a true and authentic reproduction of the
original ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 69," see appendix, p. 7214.)
Mr. NovicK. Yes ; this is my signature and yes ; it appears correct.
Mr. Cobb. May I read that'letter?
Mr. Arexs. We are running the committee, sir. Are you con-
versant with the original
Mr. Cobb. Mr. Congressman, he iust handed the witness a letter, and
now lie is refusing to let me see the letter.
6242 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
^Ir. Arexs, I am undertaking to interrogate witness about the
letter. I just had it identified, and I expect to ask liim some questions
about it.
Mr. Moulder. Did the witness identify it ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Cobb. He hasn't permitted the counsel to see the letter.
Mr. Moulder. I think it is proper to let him see it.
Mr. Cobb. Normal procedure is, you let the counsel see the letter.
Mr. Moulder. That is right.
(The letter was shown to counsel.)
Mr. Arens. This letter which you have identified is dated January
3940, is it not?
Mr. NovicK. That is right.
Mr. Arens. When did you actually become associated with the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NovicK. I believe in the early 1930's, either 1933 or 1934.
Mr. Arens. Was the organization then known as the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK. When I came to the organization, I was one of the
few that with my coming transformed some interested individuals into
the organization which became known as the American Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your affiliation with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, tell us the branch organ-
izations which the parent organized?
Mr. NoviCK. Well, the American Committee for Protection of the
Foreign Bom was formed out of interested individuals, and I am
sorry, but I don't understand the question.
Mr. Arens. Did it have a subsidiary or companion organization in
New York City, as the New York City Committee for the Protection
of the Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK. No ; it was organized as an American Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Bom, for the entire Nation.
Mr. Arens, What was its relationship with the International Labor
Defense ?
Mr. NoviCK. Prior to our organizing the American Committee for
the Protection of the Foreign Born, people who were eligible for
deportation were handled by the International Labor Defense and
by the American Civil Liberties Union. It was to the interest, I
believe, of the American Civil Liberties Union and similar organi-
zations, to have an organization like this created because it was a
strain on their finances and there was a lot of work involved and
they couldn't handle it by themselves,
Mr. Arens. During the period of your service with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, did the organization
create other organizations such as the California Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born, or Midwest Committee and the like?
Mr. NoviCK. No, sir, not to my recollection.
Mr. Arens, Who replaced you as naturalization aid director of
the American Committee ?
Mr. NoviCK. The American Committee for the Protection of the
Foreign Born had an executive board, and they ai'e the ones Avho
replaced me.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6243
Mr. Abens. Who replaced you, who was your successor ?
Mr. NovicK. I really don't know. I am m no position. When I
left the organization I believe Mr. Abner Green took my position.
]\Ir. Arens. Do you know whether or not Abner Green Avas a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I would decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in closed party meetings with Abner
Green ?
Mr. NovicK. As I mentioned before, for the program of the Ameri-
can Committee, people might place me almost any place but in order
not to draw a wrong i ,;iiclusion, I must refrain from answering this
question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. That isn't the test — in order that we might not draw
any wrong conclusions. The test is whether he honestly believes in
good faith that the answer to the question might lead to criminal
prosecution.
Mr. NovicK. It is a complicated question, and I would rather not
answer it.
Mr. SciiERER. Then I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question which he is refusing to answer on the ground it is compli-
cated.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer. You have a right,
of course, to claim the privilege of the fifth amendment if you wish
to do so.
Mr. NovicK. I refuse to answer on the ground that it might serve
to incriminate me,
Mr. Arens. Was Marjorie Spector the person who took your place
at the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. NovicK. It could be. I want to make clear that I am in no
position to tell this committee Avho took my place after I left. After
all, I wasn't there. Marjorie Spector worked with me, and slie was
my assistant.
Mr. Arens. At the American Committee ?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes, and it is possible that she did take my place. I
have no way of knowing that.
Mr. Arens. Did you know whether or not Marjorie Spector was a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I do not know whether she was a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document entitled, "Program of the
Greater New York Emergency Conference on Inalienable Rights,
Monday, February 12, 1040." According to that document you were
a speaker on the Foreign Born Panel. Do you have a recollection of
that panel ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 70a-c," see appendix, pp. 7215-
7217.)
Mr. NovicK. I remember attending this conference and I v/as en-
gaged in calling this conference. There were several panels and I
tried to attend as many panels as I could. I bolicse at that time I
miiiiit have been acting secretary at that time.
Mr. Arens. Woukl you kindly look at the ])rogram, the section
marked "Panel 1 — Foreign Born" in which you are listed as a partici-
pant, and tell this committee how many of the people who were on the
Foreign liorii Panel of this conference were to your knowledge mem-
bers (-f the Communist Party '^
6244 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. NovicK. This is the panel, is it?
Mr, Arens. Yes.
Mr. NovicK. I have no knowledge of any of these people, as to their
political affiliations.
Mr. Arens. Do you have knowledge as to whether or not any of
them were Communists?
Mr. NovicK. I have no knowledge.
Mr. ScHERER. Just pardon me. What committee was that ?
Mr. Arens. It is a conference which was set up in 1940, according
to the letterhead.
Mr. Scherer. Were the participants on that committee supposed to
have been individuals who were foreign born or was it merely a com-
mittee entitled "Foreign Born" ?
Mr. Arens. Just a panel entitled "Foreign Born."
Mr. Moulder. How many were on the panel ?
Mr. Arens. Nine or ten.
Mr. Moulder. How many did you know ?
Mr. NovicK. I knew them by reputation.
Mr. Moulder. Did you know all of them ?
Mr. NoviCK. Most of them, but I don't know as to their political
affiliations.
Mr. Moulder. How did you know them ?
Mr. NovicK. Well, let us take Frank Kingdon. He is a radio com-
mentator, and each one is a prominent public figure, and I would know
many by reputation. But I don't know, as a matter of fact, I don't
know him personally well enough to know anything about him.
Mr. Scherer. Were you asked where you weie born ? I don't recall.
Mr. NovicK. Not yet.
Mr. Scherer. Where were you born ?
Mr. NoviCK. I was born in Poland.
Mr. Scherer. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. NovrcK. In the middle of 1923.
Mr. Scherer. And when were you naturalized ?
Mr. NovicK. Approximately in 1930.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you were naturalized ?
Mr. NovicK. As I declined before to answer any question prior to
my connection with the American Committee, I will decline now for
the reason of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. When you were naturalized, were you asked whether
or not you were a member of the Communist Party at that time ?
Mr. NovicK. T am familiar with the naturalization procedure and
I know that in 1930 no one was asked as to membership in the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Scherer. Now, let us go a little further. "When were you
admitted to practice before the Bureau of Immigration and
Naturalization?
Mr. NovicK. Approximately in 1945.
Mr. Scherer. Were you asked at that time whether you were a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes; I was.
Mr. Scherer. What Avas your answer?
Mr. NovicK. No.
Mr. Scherer. Did you tell the truth at that time?
Mr. NovicK. I did.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6245
Mr. ScHERER. Were you a member of the Commmiist Party before
you made your application for appointment ?
Mr. NovicK. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since you were granted permission to practice before the Bureau of
Immigration and Naturalization?
Mr. XovicK. In my memory now or since, you mean ?
Mr. ScHERER. Since that date?
Mr. NovicK. The answer is "No."
Mr. ScTiERER. You have not been a member since you were
admitted ?
Mr. NovTCK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?
JNIr. NovTCK. No; I am not under any discipline of the Communist
Party or otherwise.
Mr. SciiERER. How soon before you were admitted to practice
before the Bureau of Immigi-ation and Naturalization did you drop
your membership in the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I at no time stated here that I was a member of the
Communist Party, but I will decline to answer any question on the
basis of the fifth amendment, prior to January of 1942.
Mr. ScHERER. Isn't it a fact then, that you resigned from the Com-
munist Party so that in your application for permission to practice
before the Bureau of Immigration and Naturalization, you could
answer the question as to whether or not vou were a member of the
Communist Party, "No." Isn't that the fact?
Mr. NovicK. If I understand your question, you state that
Mr. ScHERER. Isn't it a fact that you resigned from the Communist
Party so that in filling out your application for admission to practice
before the Bureau of Immigration and Naturalization, you could
answer that question as to membership in the Communist Party,
"No"?
Mr. NovTCK. The answer is "No."
Mr. Arens. You stated a few minutes ago, Mr. Novick
Mr. SciiERER. Just a moment. I didn't finish with the witness.
You say that you were not a member of the Communist Party in
1945. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1944 ?
Mr. NoviCK. No.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member in 1943?
Mr. NoviCK. No.
Mr. SciiERER. In 1942?
Mr. NoviCK. No.
Mr. Scherer. In 1940?
JVIr. Novick. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. You stated a few minutes ago that while you were witli
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born there were
no other subsidiary companion organizations, such as a Midwest com-
mittee or an Ohio'Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Boris.
Mr. No\T[CK. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of tlie Cleveland
Plain Dealer of Monday, February 3. 1941, and invite your nttention
to an article which reads in part as follows :
An extensive program for the prevention of the mistreatment of foreij^ii born
was drafted by 150 delegates and observers who attended an organization meet-
85383— 57— pt. 1 8
6246 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ing of the Ohio Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Boru yesterday
afternoon at the City Club Auditorium.
I lay that before you and ask you if that would refresh your recol-
lection with reference to a collateral or subsidiary organization of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK. I am sorry sir, but I have no recollection or any knowl-
edge that such organization existed,
Mr. Arens. Would it help your recollection if I would lay before
you a photostatic copy of the Cleveland Plain Dealer for Saturday,
January 18, 1941, in which charges appear that the Ohio Provisional
Committee of the American Committee for the Protection of the For-
eign Born is Communist controlled. Would you kindly look at that
article and see whether that refreshes your recollection ?
Mr. NovrcK. Since I have no knowledge of the first one, or the ex-
istence of the organization, I don't see how I would have any knowl-
edge as to its affiliation.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified or associated with the
American Slav Congress ?
Mr. NovicK. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Have you advertised in the bulletins of the American
Slav Congress ?
Mr. NovicK. To the best of my recollection, I once gave a man $5,
and this man stated that he was collecting money for advertisements
or he was very anxious to put my name in some magazine, and it
might have been the Yugoslav Congress.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a leaflet of the American Slav Con-
gress—Rally To Win the Peace, September 20, 21, 22, 1946— in which
appears Greetings from the Immigrants Technical Aid Bureau, and I
ask you if that is the advertisement which you caused to be printed in
that publication?
Mr. NoviCK. My name and trade name appears here correctly.
However, I liave no knowledge or I still don't know what sort of a
greeting the publication is.
Mr. Arens. While you were with the [^Vmerican] Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, did you report to persons who were known
by you to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I reported to no one.
Mr. Arens. Who was your immediate superior?
Mr. NoviCK. The executive board of the American Committee for
the Protection of the Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Who was on that board ?
Mr. NoviCK. I could not recall their names now, because it was sub-
ject to change. There were about 10 or 12 members. The names were
always published.
Mr. Arens. Was Abner Green on the board ?
Mr. NoviCK, I could not recall. He might have been. I do not
remember.
Mr. Arens. Were you present in the formation and did you partici-
pate in the formation of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes; I contributed quite a bit to its formation.
Mr. Arens. And who joined with you in the formulation of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6247
Mr. NovicK. Well, it is hard to remember all of the people, but I
could remember Roger Baldwin, or people of his category.
Mr. Arens. How many people, to your knowledge, who joined in
the formation of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born were Communists?
Mr. NoviCK. Well sir, in those days, no one asked for an identifica-
tion, and I would be in no position to know, the people I mingled with,
who was a Communist or who was not.
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. ScHERER. I have one more question to ask the witness, Mr.
Chairman, and I am not ready to ask it at this moment however.
Mr. ]\IouLDER. You wish to have the witness recalled ?
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. You will remain in the hearing room, because we
will recall you as a witness.
Mr. Arens. I will call Mr. Carl Marzani.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Marzani. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CARL MARZANI
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Marzani. My name is Carl Marzani, and I live at 310 West
87th Street, Manhattan, New York City. With regard to my occu-
pation I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amendment, the
fifth amendment, my privilege of protection, and the ninth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliere is your occupation headquartered ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the same basis as before.
Mr. Arens. In what State is it located ?
Mr. Makzani. I decline to answer on the same basis as before.
Mr. Arens. I suggest that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer the last question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing in response to a subpena served
upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Mr."^ Marzani. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
the ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Mr. MLvrzani. Eome, Italy.
Mr. Arens. When?
Mr. Marzani. 1912.
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. :^L\RZANI. In 1924.
Mr. Arens. And were vou admitted for permanent residence in
1924?
6248 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Marzani. I was a child, of course, 12 years old.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever become naturalized ?
Mr. Marzani. Yes.
Mr. Arens. When were you naturalized ?
Mr. Marzani. I became a citizen through derivative citizenship
in 1929.
Mr. Arens. Then you were not naturalized by a court proceeding
but by derivation from your father.
Mr. Marzani. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Tell us just a word please, about your early education.
Mr. Marzani. Well, I went to grammar school and high school in
the United States and to Williams College in the United States and
Oxford University.
Mr. Arens. When did you attend Oxford ?
Mr. Marzani. In 1937 and 1938, 1 guess it was.
Mr. Arens. Were you a Rhodes scholar ?
Mr. Marzani. I was a Moody fellow. That is spelled with a capi-
tal M.
Mr. Arens. Was that a religious foundation ?
Mr. Marzani. No.
Mr. Arens. What was the foundation ?
Mr. Marzani. It was a fellowship from Williams College.
Mr. Arens. When did you actually graduate from Oxford'^ Was
that in 1938 ?
Mr. Marzani. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. What degree did you obtain ?
Mr. Marzani. A. B., in economics.
Mr. Arens. Now, please tell us what your occupation was as soon
as 3^ou received your degree in economics from Oxford.
Mr. Marzani, Let me see, I guess I was on relief.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were at Oxford studying mider this fellowship ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. How long were were you on relief after you concluded
your studies at Oxford ?
Mr. Marzani. I forget, some period of time, several months.
Mr. Arens. Were you with the WPA Writer's Project while you
were on relief ?
Mr. Marzani. No, I was not.
Mr. Arens. On what project were you ?
Mr. Marzani. I really do not recall what the name of it was.
Mr. Arens. What was tlie next occupation in wliich you were
engaged after you disestablished yourself from relief?
Mr. Marzani. I taught at New York University.
Mr. Arens. How long did you teach there ?
Mr. Marzani. A couple of years.
Mr. Arens. When was the period of your teaching ?
Mr. Marzani. It must have been 1941, 1940-41, I guess it was.
Mr. Scherer. What is this witness' occupation now?
Mr. Arens. He refused to tell us.
Mr. Scherer. What is our information?
Mr. Arens. He is presently, according to our information, one of
tlie officers of an organization Imown as Presentations, Inc. or with a
cojvimunist political subversion 6249
publishing firm which had some connection with this corporation
loiown as Presentations, Inc.
Mr. ScHERER. Is that information correct, Witness?
Mr. Arens. Are you with a publishing firm at the present time?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. It will not be necessary for you to raise your voice.
Mr. Marzani. You have asked four times and I tell you four times.
Mr. Scherer. Do you feel that to answer
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Sciierer. You did not hear my question. Do you feel that
to answer the question as to your present occupation might lead to
a criminal prosecution ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my
question.
Mr. Marzani. My answer speaks for itself. I would not use the
fifth if I did not think so.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Marzani. Of course I do.
Mr. Scherer. You feel that it would ?
Mr. Marzani. Of course I do.
Mr. Scherer. The courts require that we ask you.
Mr. Moulder. That is all. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document
entitled "Union Films, Carl Marzani, Director," dated March 11,
1948, and ask you if you were the director of Union Films in 1948.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 71," see appendix, p. 7218.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in prison ?
Mr. Marzani. Yes ; as a matter of public record.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did you serve in prison ?
Mr. Marzani. From 1949 to 1950 and a part of 1951 and may I say,
by the way, sir, Mr. Chairman, that one of the reasons why I behave
with such little cooperation to the committee is that I have had a very,
very interesting and salutary experience, and I was framed once and
I spent 3 years in jail on precisely associated questions and I refuse to
do it again. I have had it, and I am not going to let anybody do it
again, including Mr. Arens.
Mr. Scherer. What was the charge for which you say you were
framed ?
Mr. Marzani. It was false statement and I say "framed" ad-
visedly. It was false statement with no witnesses. The Supreme
Court split 4 to 4 upon this question twice and there was a re-
hearing and I spent 3 years in jail, with a wife with multiple
sclerosis. There was a parole signed by General Donovan, my for-
mer boss in the OSS, and signed by Einstein, and signed by leading
people in the United States. I spent the whole time, and inciden-
tally, one of my cellmates was a Mr. J. Parnell Thomas, former
chairman of this committee.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
6250 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. You were convicted of perjury?
Mr. Marzani. I was not convicted of perjury. It was a false state-
ment. This was the "Hot Oil' case. You remember the oil case;
you remember that.
Mr. ScHERER. It was a false statement? What statement was
that? I did not know that you could go to prison for a false
statement.
Mr. Marzani. I did not either, but I did. It was not perjury.
They could not get a perjury charge because it was not true.
Mr. Arens. \Vnen were you released from jail?
Mr. Marzani. July of 1951.
Mr. Arens. You were released in July of 1951 !
Mr. Marzani. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Since your release from jail were you in attendance
and were you a speaker at a mass meeting To Protest the Walter-
McCarran Law and Free the Ellis Island Seven in New York City
on December 8, 1952?
Mr. Marzani. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. I will lay before you a photostatic copy of an ad-
vertisement in the Daily Worker (December 8, 1952) in which it
is set forth that such a rally was held and you were such a speaker.
Were you there ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 72," see appendix, p. 7219.)
Mr. Marzani. I refuse to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of another docu-
ment, signed "Carl Marzani," addressed "Dear Friend" with refer-
ence to Steve Nelson. Who was Steve Nelson?
Mr. Marzani. He is not dead.
Mr. Arens. Who is he ?
Mr. Marzax", He is a man.
Mr. Arens. Who else is he f
Mr. Marzani. What do you mean, what else?
Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with
Steve Nelson ?
Mr. Marzani. First, fifth, and ninth, naturally.
Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of those.
Mr. Arens, After your release from jail did you send this letter,
dated December 30, 1952, signed "Carl Marzani", and addressed "Dear
Friend", with reference to assistance for Steve Nelson ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 73," see appendix, p. 7220.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Is that your signature at the bottom of that letter?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. You will, of course, Mr. Marzani, be paid a witness fee
for your appearance here today.
Mr. Marzani. Two days.
Mr. Arens. For these 2 days.
Mr. Marzani. Incidentally, may I say at this point that I really
do resent, and I am just as a person, bemg kept here 2 days having
to listen to Mr. Roosevelt, whose knowledge of immigration laws I
felt was kind of sketchy, to a man named Lautner, paid by my taxes
COMJMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6251
as a paid informer, while I am wasting my time. I am sure you
gentlemen are not wasting your time but I feel I am wasting mine.
Mr. ScHERER. Was there anything that Lautner said
Mr. Marzani. I did not listen to him. I walked out.
Mr. ScHERER. Was there anything he said
Mr. Marzani. I wasted my time waiting until he got through.
Mr. ScHERER. Will you wait until I ask the question ?
Mr. Marzani. I beg your pardon.
Mr. SoHERER. Was there anj^thing Mr. Lautner said that was
untrue ?
Mr. IMarzani. I told you I did not hear him and I walked out.
Mr. Arens. You said that Mr. Roosevelt did not know what he was
talking about on immigration. What has been your experience in the
field of immigration ?
Mr. Marzani. Not very much.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what has been your experience in the field of
immigration.
My. Marzani. Very little.
Mr. Arens. Have you made speeches on immigration matters?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified Avith the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Marzani, will you kindly sign your name at the
appropriate place there, as the payee?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Moulder. Have the record show what he is signing.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the photo-
static copy of this payee voucher be incorporatecl in the record so that
the signature on it may be compared with exhibit No. 73. Then
it will be processed so the witness may receive his pay.
Mr. Moulder. It is so ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. Y4," see appendix, p. 7221.)
Mr. Akens. Now, Mr. Marzani, I lay before you a document dated
January 1953 (Daily Worker, January 21, 1953), which was consider-
ably after j^ou were released from jail, in which a number of artists
are alleged to have urged clemency for the Rosenbergs and I ask you
if this is a true and correct recitation of the facts with reference to
your participation in that movement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 75,'' see appendix, p. 7222.)
Mr. ]VL\RZANi. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth.
Mr. Arens. Now, in view of your criticism of Mr. Roosevelt's knowl-
edge of the immigration laws, I would like to ask if you ever had an
opportunity to make a speech on that subject?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, Mr. Marzani, a duplicate of the
summary proceedings of the Michigan Conference to Repeal the Wal-
ter-McCarran Law and Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Ameri-
cans. The main speaker was Mr. Carl Marzani, according to this
exhibit, and the meeting was held in Detroit on November 22, 1953.
Kindly look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not that refreshes
6252 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
your recollection and whether you were the main speaker in that
session on immigration matters, that is, after your release from jail.
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. I observe that in this document you are quoted as saying,
"Your fight to repeal the Walter-McCarran law is an important part
of this broad movement," said Marzani. "The wheel has turned, the
American people are on the march. McCarthy ism will be defeated."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 76a-g," see appendix, pp. 7222-
7226.)
Mr. Marzani. What is that?
Mr. Areks. "Defeated." Did you make this statement!
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth.
Mr. Arbns. I now lay before you a photostatic copy of the Daily
Worker, New York, Wednesday, February 4, 1953, in which there is
an article entitled, "Marzani To Speak in Boston, Friday." The body
of the article indicates you were to speak under the sponsorship of the
New England Citizens Concerned for Peace. Kindly look at that
document and tell this committee whether or not you did speak and if
you are the Carl Marzani alluded to in that article.
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a page from the
Daily Worker of Monday, March 8, 1954, in which there is an article
entitled "Congressmen Visited Today on McCarran Act :"
Over 100 delegates from 15 cities attended the first session here yesterday of
the People's Conference to Repeal the McCarran Act. Sponsored by the Civil
Rights Congress, the meeting took place at Odd Fellows Hall at 9th and T
Streets.
The article continues, "Other speakers included * * * Carl Marzani."
Look at that article and tell this committee whether or not you are
the Carl Marzani who was a speaker and who was active in this visi-
tation to the Congressmen.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 77," see appendix, p. 7226.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. In December of 1954 were you in Washington ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Marzani. I just do not recall.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in Washington during the course
of 1954 for a rally?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Have you participated in a visitation with other dele-
gates to Congressmen on behalf of the People's Conference to Kepeal
the McCarran Act ?
Mr. Marzani. I just do not recall.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the front
page of a publication identified as "Progress in Massachusetts," a pub-
lication of the Progressive Party of Massachusetts, dated March 1954.
According to this document, one Carl Marzani was announced as the
feature speaker at an affair to be held by the Progressive Party. Part
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6253
of the program announced was to plan a fight back against State and
Federal inquisitions.
Would you look at that document and tell us whether you partici-
pated in that conference as indicated by the publication?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. In May of 1953, were you treasurer of the National
Committee to Win Amnesty for the Smith Act Victims ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth,
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a letterhead
of that organization (dated May 22, 1953) containing the identifi-
cation of a person by the name of Carl Marzani as treasurer.
Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt. Mr. Novick is excused. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Would you look at this exhibit and tell us whether or
not you are the person identified on that letterhead as Carl Marzani,
the treasurer of the organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 78," see appendix, p. 7227.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document entitled "Am-
nesty Trumpet," — September-October, 1954 — in which there appear
a number of articles, and one article is entitled, "Monstrous Law
Threatens New Smith-McCarran Act Persecutions." At the end of
this article Carl Marzani is indicated as treasurer of the National
Committee To Win Amnesty for Smith Act Victims.
Please look at that document and tell us whether you are or were
treasurer of that organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 79a-d." see appendix, pp. 7228-
7231.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered with the United States Con-
gress mider the Ijobbying Act ?
Mr. Marzani. No.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which we have termed
Mr. Marzani. May I say, by the way, I do not know if it is proper,
but I have listened here for 2 days on this question of asking people
whether they have registered for the Lobbying Act and it strikes me
as kind of fantastic that a lobbying act which was enacted in order
to control corporations is being used against individuals who are
presumably, according to what you are saying, trying to influence
legislation.
I also thought that was one of the prerogatives of an American
citizen and I just do not like the whole aura of intimidation. Thank
you.
Mr. Arens. If you were treasurer of this organization designed
to influence legislation, why did you not register with the United
States Congress under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. ScHERER. Then what happens to that little speech you just
made ?
Mr. Marzani. I'll tell you what happens. As I explained to you
before, sir, liaving been framed once if I thought for a moment this
committee — and I have great fears of this committee and justifiably
so, because I don't believe this committee is Avorrying about the health
of the United States. I think they are trying to put me in jail and
I won't let them. I will do everything I can under the Constitution
of the United States. The privilege is my privilege, sir.
6254 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
There is nothing illegal about it and I know exactly what I am
doing and I am standing on my rights as an American citizen.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of an organization designed to de-
stroy the Constitution of the United States ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth,
and ninth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since the Korean war ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since the desanctification of Stalin ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since the recent Communist atrocities in Hungary?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments. By the way, I wish to say one more thing. I just
resent the imputations and inferences and innuendoes about my patri-
otism. As a matter of actual fact, I have proven my patriotism and
I was in the Army and I didn't dodge anything and took my risk and
by the way, I went to jail because of my patriotism.
Mr. Arens. Stand up then like a patriotic American and deny while
you are under oath that you are a member of thfe Communist con-
spiracy.
Mr. Marzani. I stand on the first, fifth, and ninth amendments,
made for these purposes to stop people like you and that is what the
Bill of Rights was made for, so don't tell me what a patriotic man
should stand on. The Constitution is good enough for me and I wish
it was good enough for you.
Mr, Arens. Are you a member of an organization designed to de-
stroy the Constitution ?
Mr. Marzani. First, fifth, and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I will lay before you a reproduction of the New York
Beacon issued by the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, with reference to a mass rally for the Walter-McCarran Act
repeal. This mass rally was held in Yugoslav Hall in New York City
on January 17, 1955, and according to this article one of the orators for
the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act was Carl Marzani.
Please look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not you were a par-
ticipant in that mass rally for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran law
held in New York City ?
(See exhibit No. 23a-d," appendix, pp. 7122-7125.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Worker,
of April 1, 1956, containing a letter from one Carl Marzani on the
Stalin revaluation.
According to this article, and I will summarize it, the author, Carl
Marzani, condemns and commends the Communist Party and says
among other things, "I have never accepted, nor indeed have I ever
seen evidence, that the American Communist Party was, as the saying
goes, 'run by Moscow'."
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6255
Would you kindly look at that article and tell us whether or not you
Avrote that letter to the editor ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 80a, b," see appendix, pp. 7232,
7233.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen any evidence that the American
Communist Party was, or is, run by Moscow?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I also observe in this article, your statement or these
statements by Carl Marzani, that you have no antagonism toward
anyone and Communist leaders need no defense from you. Did you
make those statements?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you an original document which is an
announcement by the Socialist Unity Forum, of a discussion group on
Prospects for American Socialism to be held November 9, 1956.
One of the speakers in this forum is a man identified here as Carl
Marzani. Please look at that document and tell us whether or not you
are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 81a, b," see appendix, pp. 7234,
7235.)
Mr, Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party conspiracy
while you were employed in the Federal Government ?
Mr. Marzani. Wliat is the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
either ordered to answer that question or invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness.
Mr. Marzani. He said, "Am I a member of the Communist con-
spiracy^?" What is meant by the words "a Communist conspiracy"?
Obviously I cannot answer something I don't know.
Mr. Moulder, Of course the words explain themselves if you know
the meaning of the words.
Mr. ScHERER. He is a graduate of Williams College,
Mr. Marzani. And Oxford University and that is why I don't
understand the words.
Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist while you were in the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Marzani. You mean a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Marzani, I refuse to answer on the basis of the first, fifth and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staflF
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You may claim your wit-
ness fees.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 p, m,
(Whereupon the committee recessed at 12 : 15 p, m.)
6256 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
AFTERNOON SESSION— TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1956
(The hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., Hon. Francis E. Walter, chair-
man of the committee, presiding.)
The Chairman". The committee will come to order.
Mr. Arens. Frank Ilchuk, please come forward and remain stand-
ing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK ILCHUK; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mr. Ilchuk. My name is Frank Ilchuk, and I live at 100 Second
Avenue, New York City.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Will you keep your voice up, Mr. Ilchuk ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I will try. Do you want me to answer the question
again ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, Please, sir.
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to give my occupation on the rights and
privileges accorded me by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present
occupation ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline for the reasons just stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer that question.
The Chairman. You can answer that question.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. What is the question, sir ?
Mr. Arens. How long have you been so engaged?
Mr. Ilchuk. Five years.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
issued by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Ilchuk. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself please,
sir?
Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New
York, N. Y.
Mr. Arens. In what city is your occupation located, Mr. Ilchuk?
Mr. Ilchuk. In New York City.
Mr. Arens. And tell us please, sir, where and when were you
born ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I was born in the Ukraine, in 1907.
Mr. Arens. And you immigrated to the United States in 1912,
is that correct ?
Mr. Ilchuk. That is correct.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6257
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Ilchuk. I am.
Mr. Arens. Is that by derivative citizenship ?
Mr. Ilchuk. Right.
Mr, Arens. Give us just a word please, sir, about your formal ed-
ucation.
Mr. Ilchuk. My formal education was of course all in this coun-
try, grammar school, high school, and university.
Mr. Arens. What university did you attend?
Mr. Ilchuk. Syracuse University, and Eastman School of Mu-
sic of the University of Rochester.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did you complete your education at these two
institutions ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In 1933.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, if you please, sir, what was your first occupa-
tion after you completed your formal education?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I went to Detroit where I did some free-lance work
as a musician, whatever I could get, and then for a short period of
time I played with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra.
Mr. Arens. When did you play with the Detroit Symphony Or-
chestra ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In 1934.
Mr. Arens. Now, continue, please, from that date and tell us what
your next occupation was.
Mr. Ilchuk. My next occupation, I came to New York and I en-
gaged in musical activities, teaching music, and conducting.
Mr. Arens. Where did you teach and where did you conduct?
Mr. Ilchuk. I was self-employed.
Mr. Arens. Where did you teach ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In my home in the studio.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you engage in this
occupation ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I engaged in that occupation for the next 9 j^ears.
Mr. Arens. And that brings us up then to about
Mr. Ilchuk. 1943.
Mr. Arens. Then, tell us what your occupation was beginning in
1943.
Mr. Ilchuk. I served in the Armed Forces of our country.
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I served in tlie European theater of operations.
Mr. Arens. And in what capacity ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I was at the 88th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron
of the 8th Army Division.
Mr. Arens. Did you have a commission ?
Mr. Ilchuk. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long did you serve in the Armed Forces?
Mr. Ilchuk. I served from May 1943 to the end of November 1945.
Mr. Arens. Pick us up there and tell us what your occupation Avas
after you were disassociated from the Armed Forces?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I refuse to answer the question for the reasons
previously stated.
6258 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. During the music career to which you were alluding,
were you ever connected with the Metropolitan Music School in New
York City?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. Yes, sir.
Mr, Arens. And in what capacity ?
Mr, Ilchuk. First as an instructor, instructor of violin theory and
harmony and laier as its director.
Mr. Arens. What was your next occupation after the occupation
which we have just been talking about in 1945 ?
Mr. Ilchuk. The occupation right after the one in 1945 ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to ansv/er that question for the reasons
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. How long did that oc-cupation endure?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that on the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. And what was your next occupation ?
(Witness consulted counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. There is no next occupation.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in any occupation other than
the one which began in 1945 ?
Mr. Ilchuk. Yes, sir, engaged in musical activities, teaching pri-
vately, and self-employed.
Mr. Arens. When you invoked the fifth amendment a little while
ago with reference to you present occupation, you said subsequently
that your present occupation dates back for 5 years. What was the
occupation which you were engaged in immediately prior to your
present occupation?
(Witness consulted counsel.)
Mr. Arens. What was the occupation that you had just before
in 1945 ; what occupation were you engaged in ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In 1945 up to November I was in the Armed Forces.
Mr. Arens. In 1947, did you take a trip abroad?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered
and directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Ilchuk. I respectfully decline on the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a leaflet of the
World Youth Festival in Prague, 1947, containing a list of Americans
attending the World Youth Festival in Prague in 1947 including one
Frank Ilchuk, identified here as a choral leader of the Slavic American
Youth Council. Kindly look at that and see if it refreshes your recol-
lection with respect to the trip you may have made abroad at that
time?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 82a, b," see appendix, pp. 7236,
7237.)
(Document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time identified with the Slavic Ameri-
can Youth Council?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a passport appli-
cation under date of June 12, 1947, by one Frank H. Ilchuk, and an
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6259
accoinpanying- statement submitted with the application by one Doris
Senk, executive secretary of the World Youth Festival, with refer-
erence to one Frank llchuk. Please look at the application and tell us
whether or not that is your signature appearing after tlie ( )atli of Al-
legiance.
(Documents marked '"Exhibit Xo. 8oa-c,"" see ai)pendi.\. pp. 72o8-
7240.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Ilchuk, as a witness you are entitled to certain wit-
ness fees after you have signed a pay vouchei'. I therefore ask you
if you will now affix your signature to this pay voucher where it
says "Payee."
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Needlemax. Since this is a blank voucher. I decline to have my
client fill it out. If you will fill it out, I will be ghid to have liim
sign it. I cannot ask him to sign and permit him to sign a blank
voucher.
]\Ir. Arens. We are not asking you to ask him.
The Chairman. Before you ask another question, what is the Shivic
American Youth Council, JNIr. Ilchuk ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to ansver that for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that in June of 1947 you made application for a passport
in which you stated you were going to attend a World Youth Festival
in Prague, and that this is a true and correct reproduction of that
passport application.
Mr. Ilchuk. ^Ylmt is the question ?
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that is your signature and that
is a duplicate of your passport application.
jNIr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1947 did you take a trip abroad ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the basis pi'e-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article appear-
ing in the Daily Worker of March 19, 1947, entitled. "'Joint Con-
ference Formed Against Intervention,'' with reference to a con-
ference against intervention in Greece and Turkey, and one of tlie
persons who formulated this conference is identified as Frank Ilchuk,
IWO. Please look at that, sir, and tell us whether or not that re-
freshes your recollection?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 84," see appendix, p. 7241.)
(Document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to ansMcr for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of a
publication entitled, "The Slavic American," dated fall 1947, in which
appears a photograph of one Frank Ilchuk, and an article stating
that Frank Ilchuk was elected to represent the Slavic American
Youth Council at tlie World Youth Festival in Pi-ague, and that that
Frank Ilchuk Avas the newly elected President of the Tf^krainian
American Fraternal Union. Please look at that, sir, and tell us if
6260 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
that refreshes your recollection with reference to your activities in
1947.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 85a, b," see appendix, pp. 7242,
7243.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the World Youth Festival in Prague
in 1947?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Is this your photograph in this document which I now
display to you?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Are you now connected with the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the basis previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1949 did you participate in a National Conference
Against Deportation Hysteria, which was convened in Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been president of the Ukrainian Defense
Committee ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that on the same reasons stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of the pro-
gram and minutes of the National Conference Against Deportation
Hysteria held in December of 1949 in Detroit, Mich., in which one
of the participants in the panel is identified as Frank Ilchuk, of New
York, president of the Ukrainian Defense Committee. Please look at
that, sir, and tell this committee while you are under oath if you are
the Frank Ilchuk alluded to in that document?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In this same document I invite your attention to a list
of the board of directors of this organization in which is set forth
among other persons the name of Frank Ilchuk, Ukrainian Defense
Committee of New York. Please look at that document, sir, and tell
us whether or not you are that Frank Ilchuk referred to as a member
of the board of directors of that organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit II," see appendix, pp. 8275-8o02.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1954, did you participate in a conference in New
York City of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
entitled, "A National Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign
Born Americans"?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that for the reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you now a photostatic reproduction of the
summary proceedings of that conference, in which Frank Ilchuk of
New York City is identified as one of the participants in the confer-
once. Please look at that, sir, and tell me whether or not that refreshes
your recollection.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
Mr. Ii-CHUK. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre-
\ iously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6261
Mr. Arens. What have you done in the course of tlie hist few years
+oward proniotino; your interests or the interests of your associates
in national legishition by the Congress?
Mr. Ilciiuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilciiuk. I respectfully decline to answer that question for the
reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Are you registered as a lobbyist?
Mr. Ilciiuk. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you taken an active part. in promoting legislation
or in opposing legislation by your organization, or as an individual?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question for reasons previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of the
minutes of the ])roceedings of the Conference of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, Saturday, December 10, 1955,
in which the following appears:
Before introducing Abner Green, the Chair is asking authorization of the con-
ference to appoint from the Chair, the chairmen of the three committees of the
conference, resolutions, credentials, and nominating, with the understanding
that the cliairmaii of the conference committee will select their own committees
from among the liody of the conference. When authorization is granted the
Chair is to appoint as chairmen the following: Including credentials committee,
Frank Ilchuk, of New York.
Please look at that document and tell us whether or not you are the
Frank Ilchuk alluded to and whether you participated in that con-
ference.
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Ilchuk, we have filled out pursuant to the
demands of your counsel, your expense voucher and while you are
under oath I would like to have you affix your signature as payee to
this document.,
(The document was handed to the witness.)
(The witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. Right here?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, where it says, "Payee.''
(The witness signed the document.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest that this part
of the voucher containing the signature of Mr. Ilchuk be incorporated
in this record so that the signature nuiy be compared w^th the signature
on the passpoi-t ap])lication.
(Document marked "'Fixhibit No. 8(5," see appendix, p. 7244.)
The CiiAunrAN. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. ^\v. Ilchuk, I lay before you a ])hotostatic copy of a
page from a ])amphlet pul)lished by the Ukrainian National Folk
Festival, which Festival was held in Detioit, Midi., in 1J)4S. Accord-
ing (o this advertisement one Frank Ilchuk is national president of the
Ukrainian American Fraternal Union. Please look at that document
and tell use whether or not you are that Frank Ilchuk.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 87," see appendix, p. 7245.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
So'^X', — 57 — lit. 1 9
6262 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a call to a
national founding convention of a youth organization to support the
policies of the Wallace and Taylor Party. Among the persons listed
as sponsors in this call is Mr. Frank H. Ilchuk, president of the
Ukrainian-American Fraternal Union. l*lease look at that and tell
us whether or not you are he ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 88a-h,-' see appendix, pp. 7246-
7253.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis of the reasons previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Please tell this committee, Mr. Ilchuk, what is the
Ukrainian American Fraternal Union?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis of the reasons previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is there such an organization as Ukrainian American
Fraternal Union ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't.
Mr. Arens. Was there such an organization ?
Mr. Ilchuk. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And during what course of time did it exist ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. Would you repeat the question ?
Mr. Arens. During what course of time did the organization exist?
Mr. Ilchuk. To the best of my knowledge, from 1944 vmtil about
1953.
Mr. Arens. What is the basis of your knowledge ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was Sam ^lilgrom ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before 3'ou now a letterhead of a Committee for the
Freedom of Sam Milgrom, in Avhich a Frank Ilchuk is identified as
treasurer of the organization. Please look at that and tell us whether
or not you were treasurer of that organization.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 89," see appendix, p. 7254.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Olive Sutton?
Mr. Ilchuk. No, sir, I don't think so.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a Daily Worker of
October 21, 1948, an article by Olive Sutton, entitled "American Cul-
ture Enriched by Ukranian Folk Festival,'' in which allusion is made to
yourself, Frank II. Ilchuk, president of the Ukranian American Fra-
ternal Union. I will ask you if that refreshes your recollection with
reference to her ?
Mr. Ilchuk. No, sir, it does not.
Mr, Arens. Have you been active in the International Workers
Order ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
IMr. Arens. I lav befoi-e you now a phot()st;!iic copv of an article
from the Daily Worker of August 10, 1949, entitled "IWO Vets to
Join Pickets at Foley Square Friday." Keference is made to a call
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6263
to all Internntioiial Workers Order veterans issued by a number of
persons including a Frank Ilcliuk, and I will ask you if that refreshes
your recollection.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Arexs. According to that article, the call is for the purpose of
picketing Foley Square during the time of the trial of the Communist
traitors.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 90," see appendix, p. 7255.)
Mr. Ilciiuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the basis previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you now identified with the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre-
viously stated,
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. There are no questions.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. The next witness is Frances Damon Williams.
Will you kindly remain standing while the chairman administers
an oath to you ?
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the trutli, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Miss Damon. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANCES MacKINNON DAMON (FRANCES DAMON
WILLIAMS) ; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, MILTON H. FRIEDMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Miss Damon. My name is Frances MacKinnon Damon, and I live
at 611 West lo7th Street, New York City, and I have no occupation.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Miss Damon. [ was born in Honolulu.
Mr. Arens. And when did vou come to the continental United
States?
Miss Damon. I first visited the continent in 1928, I believe, and it
was a short visit.
Mr. Arens. When did you come for permanent residence?
Miss Damon. Probably it was 1989 for permanent residence in the
t'nited States. I had traveled before that through the United States.
Mr. Arens. And when were you married?
Miss Damon. I was married in 1947.
Mr. Arens. What is your husband's name?
Miss Damon. My husband's name was Herbert Williams.
Mr. AiiENS. Now ]\Irs. Williams, have you ever traveled abroad
since arriving in the United States for permanent residence?
Miss Damon. Yes, I have.
Mr. Arens. And wlien was that ?
6264 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Damon. I traveled to Mexico in 1943, and I may have visited
Canada during those years. I went to Europe in 1945.
Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of your trip to Europe in 1945 ?
Miss Damon. My purpose in going to Europe at that time, to
London, was as a delegate to the World Youth Conference which
was held in London.
Mr. Arens. And did you attend the World Youth Conference in
London ?
Miss Damon. Yes, sir; J did.
Mr. Arens. Who designated you as a delegate to the conference ?
Miss Damon. I was elected by an arrangements committee which
was established in New York City, with the participation of a num-
ber of youth organizations interested at that time in promoting in-
ternational good friendship.
Mr. Arens. And who were some of these people that set up this
world youth organization?
Miss Damon. I am afraid that I don't wish, or I would have to
decline, to answer questions about other people.
Mr. Arens. Was Doris Senk a member of this group that set up this
World Youth Conference ?
Miss Damon. I think that I have made it clear that I decline to
answer questions about other people.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
The Chairman. The witness is directed to answer the question.
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
tlie privileges afforded me by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a passport
application made by one Frances M. Damon, June 1945, and I will ask
you if that is your signature ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. Yes, that is my signature.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. One of the witnesses on this application
is Doris Senk ; is it not ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 91a, 8," see appendix, pp. 7256,
7257.)
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
The Chairman. The writing speaks for itself. Is the name there,
Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Aren. Yes. Do you know the lady whose name ajipeai's here
as a witness ?
Miss Damon. T think I have made it clear that I don't wish to be
an informer, and I don't wish to answer questions about other people.
I tliei-efore respectfully ask or I respectfully invoke the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel now if you told this conunittee
whether or not you have known Doris Senk whose name ap])ears on
your passi)ort ap})lication, that you woukl be supplying information
M-liich might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
^Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. Yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6265
Mr. Arens. We do not have the identity of counsel.
Mr. Friedman. ^Milton H. Friedman, New York.
Mr. Arens. How long were you in London in connection with this
World Youth Conference?
Miss Damon. Probably about a month. I am not sure of the exact
lenoth of time.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go afterward ?
Miss Damon. I returned to the United States.
Mr. Arens. Did you subsequently take a trip abroad in the course
of the next year or so ?
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go that time ?
Miss Damon. I went to Paris.
Mr. Arens. And for what purpose ?
Miss Damon. I went because at the World Youth Conference I had
been elected as one of the officers of the World Federation of Demo-
cratic Youth.
Mr. Arens. That was in London ?
Miss Damon. The election took place in London; yes. And the
headquarters of the federation was in Paris and I went there to fulfill
my responsibilities as an officer of the federation.
Mr. Arens. Who paid your expenses?
Miss Damon. I paid my own expenses.
Mr. Arens. And when was it that you went to Paris?
Miss Damon. In the spring of 194(5.
Mr. Arens. How long were you in Paris?
Miss Damon. It is difficult for me to give you an exact time.
Mr. Arens. Your best recollection?
Miss Damon. Because I traveled a very great deal during that time.
It is hard to recall right now.
Mv. Arens. Well, did you leave Paris and go any place else on the
Continent while 3^ou were there?
JNliss Damon. I visited many of the countries.
Mr. Arens. What countries did you visit?
Miss Damon. I think that I visited practically all of the countries.
Mr. Arens. Did you travel to Czechoslovakia?
Miss Damon. Yes; I did.
j\Ir. Arens. "What was the occasion for your traveling to Czechoslo-
vakia ?
Miss Damon. Tliere may have been meetings of the World Federa-
tion of Democratic Youth in Czechoslovakia, and conferences and fes-
tivals, and I am not sure.
Mv. Arens. Where were those held, if you remember?
Miss Damon. You have asked me about Czechoslovakia?
Mr. Arens. Yes; where Avere the conferences held, if you please?
Miss Damon. They would have been held in Prague.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend conferences in Prague?
Miss Damon. 'J'o the best of my recollection; yes.
Mr. Arens. And then did you attend conferences in tlie IT. S. S. R.?
Miss Damon. At one time tlie World Federation of Democratic
Youth held its executive meeting in Moscow.
Mr. Arens. When was that?
Miss Damon. To tlie best of my recollection, it was in 1947.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the session ?
(5266 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Damon. Yes ; I attended as an officer, and as a member of the
executive committee of the World Federation.
Mr. Akens. In 1947, did you likewise travel to Mexico?
Miss Damon. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. Arens. What was the occasion for your traveling to Mexico?
Miss Damon. I went as a member of a delegation of the World
Federation of Democratic Youth to visit Mexico.
Mr. Arens. And was there a session in Mexico of this World Feder-
ation of Democratic Youth?
Miss Damon. Yes; we had a conference.
Mr. Arens. What year w^as that?
Miss Damon. That was in 1948.
Mr. Arens. And in 1949 did you again travel abroad?
Miss Damon. Yes ; I was abroad in 1949.
Mr. Arens. 'Wliere did you go abroad in 1949 ?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect exactly which countries I visited.
Mr. Arens. Did you go to Budapest, Hungary ?
Miss Damon. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. What was the occasion for your going to Budapest,
Hungary ?
Miss Damon. On that occasion, there was a world festival of youth
and students in Budapest, and a congress of the World Federation of
Democratic Youth.
Mr. Arens. And in 1950, did you travel abroad again ?
Miss Damon. I was traveling abroad in 1950.
Mr. Arens. In 1950 did you attend a session of the democratic
world youth organization in Oslo, Norway?
Miss Damon. I am not sure of the organization there. Wliatdidyou
say ?
Mr. Arens. Did you attend a conference of some kind in Oslo,
Norway, in 1950 ?
Miss Damon. There could have been a meeting of the World Fed-
eration of Democratic Youth, of its council or executive committee.
Mr. Arens. Did you make a speech while you were in Oslo, Norway,
about certain situations and conditions existing in the United States
in 1950?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect.
Mr. Arens. Let me read you what has been identified as your state-
ments before this committee, and see if you will confirm them ?
Miss Damon. Which committee?
Mr. Arens. The Committee on Un-American Activities, before
which you are appearing today.
Miss Damon. My statements before it?
Mr. Arens. Your statements in Oslo, Norway, in March of 1950.
In the capitalist world, the youth peace moverueut has made special progress
in Italy. In that country half a million young boys and girls have signed a "peti-
tion for peace". The brave Italian youth stands solidly with their older comrades
who refuse to unload weapons and ammunition from the United States. * * *
The young people in the United States live under very difficult conditions today.
There are 3 million unemployed young people. The crisis hits the young people
especially hard. They cannot afford to get an education and the shortage of
housing makes it impossible for many of them to get married and to live normally.
The warmongers tempt the youth to join the Army by promising them this and
that. The war propaganda employs all means — press, radio, etc. to corrupt the
Youth. Still there remains a strong passive as well as active resistance among
the young people * ♦ *.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6267
Many of them support the campaijiii agaiust compulsory military training, for
prohibition of atomic weapons, for friendship with the democratic forces in all
countries, for peace and understanding between all peoples. The young people are
worried about the increasing efforts of the reactionaries, about the threatening
developments toward fascism and the liciuidation of democratic rights.
(Document marked '"Exhibit No. 92a, b," see appendix, pp. 7258,
7259.)
Did you make that statement in Oslo, Norway, in 1950?
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I don't recollect that. It doesn't exactly
sound the way I v;oidd put thing's.
The Chairman. What was the date of that ?
Mr. Arens. March 28, 1950.
The Chairman. Were you in Oslo on the 28th of March 1950?
Miss Damon. I cannot recall precisely, and I know at one time there
was a meeting of the executive committee of the World Federation of
Democratic Youth, and whether it was that month or that year it is
hard for me to say.
The Chairman. Don't you even remember the year when you were
in Norway ?
Miss Damon. I traveled so many times to so many of these countries
that it is very difficult to pin them down in terms of exact months and
years.
Mr. Arens. When you were in Oslo in 1950, were you interviewed by
the Communist Friheten ?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect.
Mr. Arens. Were you interviewed by any papers which issued state-
ments similar to those which I have just read to you?
Miss Damon. I really don't recollect.
Mr. Arens. In 1950, did you attend a conference in Berlin of this
world youth organization, or World Federation of Democratic Youth?
Miss Damon. In 1950?
Mr. Arens. Or, 1951?
Miss Damont. In 1951, there was the world festival of youth and
students for peace, which was held in Berlin.
Mr. Atens. And where was that? In the eastern sector of Berlin,
in the Soviet sector of Berlin ?
Miss Damon. It was in Berlin.
Mr. Arens. In what sector of Berlin was it?
Miss Damon. Yes, I imagine it was.
Mr. Arens. Well now, you knew you were in the Soviet sector of
Berlin in 1951 to attend this youth rally, did you not?
Miss Damon. I was at the festival.
Mr. Arens. In the course of your presence in Berlin, for this j'outh
festival, did you make a s]:)eech?
Miss Damon. I probably made many speeches during the festival.
Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of that speech in Berlin, in
1951
Miss Damon. Which speech ?
Mr. Arens. Say among other things :
It is our responsibility to prevent the war which is desired by the Wall Street
monopoly which rules the United States and by its marionettes. The American
imperialists, whose hands are already covered with the blood of their crimes
against the peace-loving women, mothers, and children of Korea, are preparing
new aggression and their unappeasable hunger for dollars * * *
Did you make that sj^eech in the Russian sector of Berlin?
6268 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Damon. It doesn't sound like my language at all.
Mr. Ahkns. Did you also say in that same speech in the Soviet sec-
tor of Berlin, during this session, the following :
Behind the policy of the Americans in Gennnny, of the Americans in French
cities lil<e Bordeaux, of the Americans in the various bases of aggression tlirough-
out the world, and, above all, the Americans in Korea, is hidden the policy of
war preparation, of militarizing the American with the spending of billions for
armament and nothing for the economic and cultural needs of youth, the policy
of the"facistization" of America which manifests itself in the persecution of
the friends of freedom and democracy, in horrible brutalities against the Negro.
Therefore, we in America are raising a great protest. AVe the simple people,
who are flooded by the local newspapers, who write to Truman and his repre-
sentatives and demand that they immediately withdraw the American troops
from Korea.
Did you make that speech or is that part of a speech that you made
in the Soviet sector of Berlin in 1951 ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 03a, b, see appendix, pp 72(50,
7261.)
Miss Damon. It really doesn't sound like a speech that I made.
Mr. S('iiERER. You say it doesn't sound like your language. Did you
have somebody write the speech for you and then you gave it?
Miss Damon. I always wrote my own speeches.
Mr. Arens. Did you condemn the United States militar}- action in
Korea, in your speech in the Russian sector of Berlin ?
Miss Damon. I really don't know what speech you are referring to.
Mr. Arens. You said that you made a number of speeches in Berlin ;
didn't you?
Miss Damon. You quoted there— that doesn't sound like me at all.
The Chairman. Did you make that speech ?
Miss Damon. I have stated that this doesn't sound like me, so it
doesn't sound like a speech that I made.
The Chairman. I will agree with that, but did you make that
statement?
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I don't quite understand. I have stated
that it isn't at all familiar to me.
The Chairman. All right. What are you reading from ?
Mr. Arens. I have a document right here that I Avill read from,
which is an interview with Frances Damon, United States delegate
representing the World Federation of Democratic Youth at the Inter-
national Union of Students' Congress in Prague. That was in 1950,
August 17. I should like to read this to you, Miss Damon, and ask
if you will conlirm or deny it.
Miss Damon. An interview with a newspaperman, or what?
Mr. Arens. On the radio.
The Chatrtvian. Before you do that, ask her about her being there.
Mr. Arens. We have established that. You were in Prague in 1950;
were you not ? You said so a little while ago.
Miss Damon. I didn't say I was there in 1950, in Prague. I could
have been in Prague in 1950.
Mr. Arens. Did you, in 1950, in Prague participate in a radio ]^ro-
gram of the International Union of Students?
INfiss Damon. I cannot recall any radio program at that time.
The Chairman. Do you know an organization known as the Inter-
national Union of Students?
Miss Daimon. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you a member of it ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6269
Miss Da:\iox. Xo ; I was never a inenihei- of the Iiiteniational Union
of Students.
i\fr. Arexs. Did you represent the Worhl Federation of Democratic
Youth at tlie conference in Prague?
Miss Damox. It is quite possible tliat I did.
Mr. Arens. Did 3'ou make these statements :
We have many examples which show that the broadcast sections of young
I)e<>ple in the United States have increasingly spoken out to condemn the
United States war of aggression against tlie Korean people.
Did you say that, or substantially that, in Prague, Czechoslovakia?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 94," see appendix, p. 7262.)
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I don^t remember,
Mr. Arens. I have before me now a message to the State Depart-
ment from the consul in Berlin under date of March 1951, that, "the
December 1, 1950, issue of Neues Deutschland (Berlin) carried an
article under a Vienna dateline alleging that one Frances Damon, an
American citizen, made a speech in Vienna at the Soviet-sponsored
Third World Youth Festival." Now^, were you at the Third World
Youth Festival in December of 1950 ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 95," see appendix, p. 7263.)
Miss Damon. There was no festival in December of 1950.
Mr. Arens. Were you in Vienna, in 1950 ?
Miss Damon. It is possible that I was there, but I don't remember
any festival.
Mr. Arens. AVhat do you remember when you were there in 1950 ?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect specifically being in Vienna in 1950.
Mr. Arens. When do you recollect being in Vienna ?
Miss Damon. I visited Vienna on several occasions.
The Chairman. When ?
Miss Damon. During the course of the 7i/^ years.
The Chairman. You cannot make it more definite than 7l^ years?
If you have her passport, maybe you could show her the dates.
Mr. Arens. We have the passport applications, but she was over
there so long we are unable to pinp )int it beyond the report from
the American consul abroad.
The Chairman. Did you surrender your passport when you came
back to the United States?
Miss Damon. They didn't ask for it.
The Chairman. Did you ?
Miss Damon. No ; I don't have my passpoi't.
Mr. Scherer. Where is it ?
Miss Daimon. I don't know where it is.
Mr. ScTiERER. Has it expired?
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How many speeches did you make in Europe on behalf
of this World Youth Festival organization?
Miss Da:mon. There was no World Youth Festival organization.
Mr. Arens. On behalf of the oi-ganization you represented; and
■what was that?
Miss Damon. The World Federation of Democratic Youth.
Mr. Arens. How many speeches did you make in Europe?
Miss Daimon. I probably made many speeches.
Mr. Scherer. Probably?
6270 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. You probably made many. What does that mean ?
Miss Damon. It is hard to count over a period of so many years, and
there were many occasions when meetings, conferences, and festivals
were held,
Mr. ScHERER. You made many speeches as is obvious from the
record and from your testimony. There is no "probably" about it.
Mr. Arens. In 1951, in one of your speeches in Berlin, did you say ? —
We seud greetings to heroic Korea and to our brothers and sisters of the Soviet
Union, Communist China, and the People's Democracy.
Did you allege there was a "shadow of fascism" falling across the
United States ?
Mr. ScHERER. Were we in war at the time that these statements were
made?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know the definition of treason ?
Miss Damon. May I consult with my lawyer, please ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I think there are two questions here ; one was a speech
there in Berlin, and it is difficult for me to place some of these speeches,
and some of the language which is from newspaper accounts.
I am sure for example, if I sent greetings of friendsiiip to the J'^oung
people in other parts of the world, that I did so. Tliis precise language
I remember at the time from this newspaper story ; tliere vv'ere certain
words there used which I wouldn't have used, and which were, I believe,
a misquote on the part of the newspaper concerned.
The Chairman. Just a moment, please.
Miss Damon. If I spoke about a "shadow of fascism" over the
United States, I believed at that time that there was, and I gave an
example, I believe, then of a number of prominent people who were
unable to attend the festival, and this to me is something which is not
a very democratic sort of a thing. With regard to the question which
Mr. Sclierer asked me, "Do I knov,' the definition of trenson ?" I don't
know the legal definition of treason, but I am no traitor, and I love my
country and my people, and I will stand up and in their interests to the
best of my ability.
Mr. Scherer. Let me tell you the definition. It is giving aid and
comfort to the enemy in time of war. Do you think the speeches
that you made all over Europe, that have just been read to you by
counsel, were giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war?
Miss Damon. I don't think that that is giving aid and comfort to
the enemy in time of war to ask for friendship and to send gi-eetings
of friendship to another people. There is nothing traitorous or trea-
sonable about this.
Mr. Scherer. Not about that.
Miss Damon. All of us who want peace, and we would want friend-
ship among the peoples of the world. It is something which is very
dear to the traditions of this country.
The Chairman. I^et me ask you a question. You say that you made
many speeches OA'er this period of time. Where did you speak?
Miss Damon. Are you referring to the period when I was with the
World Federation of Democratic Youth?
The Chair^man. Yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6271
Miss Damon. I spoke at many of the congresses and festivals.
The Chairman. Where were they ?
Miss Damon. They were held in many of the capitals of Europe,
in London, in Paris, and in Prague, and in Rome, and all over.
Mr. ScHERER. Who financed your trip ?
Miss Damon. ]\Iy trip ? I always paid my own expenses.
Mr. ScHERER. During all of these 7i/2 years that you were there ?
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You said that some of these people
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment, please.
What was your source of income ?
Miss Damon. I have a private income.
Mr. Arens. You said that some prominent people were unable to
attend this conference in 1951 in Berlin. "VS^io were some of these
people ?
Miss Damon. I think that I mentioned Paul Robeson and Howard
Fast, and I believe they are very prominent and very wonderful
citizens of the country.
Mr. Arens. Both of them have been identified as Communist agents.
Did you know that ?
Miss Damon. I think that I would refuse to answer such a question,
and decline to answer it on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Did you send greetings in this speech to any of the
non-Comniiniist countries of the world?
Miss Damon. Yes, I did.
Mr. Scherer. To what non-Communist countries did you send
greetings ?
Miss Damon. I think that I specifically in that speech referred to
"The Youth of Britain, of France, the youth of Asia, and Africa, and
Latin America."
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you made these speeches in Europe ?
Miss Damon. I would respectfully decline to answer such a question
on the grounds of both the first and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Damon. I would decline to answer such a question on the
same grounds. I regard it as an intrusion into my personal beliefs.
Mr. Arens. In the course of the. last few years, have you been
identified with the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I don't think so.
Mr. Arens. ' I will lay before you a summary of the proceedings of
the National Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Amer-
icans, in New York City, December 11, 1954, which summary was
prepared by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
There are set forth a list of the officials or participants in the confer-
ence including one Frances Damon of New York. I will ask you if
that refreshes your recollection ?
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. It does refresh your recollection ?
Miss Damon. Yes, sir.
6272 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now tell us, did you participate in that conference.
Miss Damon. Yes, sir.
Mr, Arens. And what was your participation?
Miss Damon. I was invited to speak there and I spoke there on the
Government's use of paid informers, and I stated at that time that the
use of such paid informers had led to very grave injustices against
many hundreds of innocent citizens and noncitizens of our country,
and probably I said some other things.
Mr. Arens. On what basis did you arrive at that conclusion, that
the use of paid informers had caused all of these injustices?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. You have asked for the basis on which I came to such
conclusions. I had done a certain amount of study of the use of
paid political informers and it would take quite a long time.
Mr. Arens. By "paid political informer," do you mean an under-
cover agent for the FBI in the Communist conspiracy ?
Miss Damon. I mean a stool pigeon like we had here this morning.
He named names.
Mr. Scherer. You mean John Lautner ?
The Chairman. Who were the innocent people? Just name the
innocent people whom he harmed.
Miss Damon. There are many examples of innocent people who
have been harmed by the lies of paid informers.
The Chairman. Just name one for me.
Miss Damon. Well, I can give you one example where the question
of a paid informer
The Chairman. We are talking about the man who testified this
morning. What was his name ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. John Lautner, and he identified a number of people
as Communists.
The Chairman. Just name one of those innocent persons.
Miss Damon. I would have to do a little research to bring you the
exact names of people but I would be very glad to give you such
information.
Mr. Arens. If someone identified you now as a member of the
Communist conspiracy, would he be lying or would he be telling the
truth ?
Miss Damon. I resent this implication that somehow my answer
wouldn't be necessarily true.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, are j'ou a Communist?
Miss Damon. I stand on the fifth amendment and the first amend-
ment with regard to such questions, prying into my personal beliefs.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party at the
present time?
Miss Damon. Mr. Arens, I have already stated that my answer to
such a question would be to stand on the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. And then if someone were to identify j^ou, accord-
ing to your standards you would call that person a stool pigeon, is that
correct ?
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I did not quite understand the question.
The Chairman. I say, if someone would testify that they knew you
to be a Communist, then according to your standards that person would
be a stool pigeon, is that correct?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6273
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I don't understand that question.
The Chairman. All right, we will proceed.
Mr. ScHERER. You said. Madam, that Mr. Lautner who testified
under oatli before this committee yesterda}^ and today was a stool
pigeon. Now, you were present and heard his testimony, were you
not ?
Miss Damon. Do I recall precisely what he said?
Mr. SciiERBK. I did not say that, but were you present, that is the
first question?
Miss Damon. Was I present here in this hearing room this morning ?
Mr. SciiERER. Yes.
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. SciiERER. Can you tell us any one thing that he said that was
not true?
Miss Damon. This would involve me in discussing personalities, and
their beliefs, and individuals, and this is something that I cannot
myself do. If Mr. Lautner wislies to do it, I am soriy. It almost
makes me feel very sick, but I don't want to do that.
Mr. SciiERER. You initiated the attack against this witness who
came here and testified under oath, and now if you will tell me if Mr.
Lautner lied to this connnittee in any one respect, then I will ask that
his testimony and your testimony be referred to the Department of
Justice to determine whether or ]iot he lied or you lied. Will you
tell us in one respect, any one thing, any one identification that he made
that was false.
Miss Dajeon. Mr. Scherer, I feel that you are just trying to put me
into a trap.
Mr. ScHERER. Xo I think that I as a member of this committee have
a duty to defend a man who has come here and testified under oath
when you make those charges against him. You certainly are not
sustaining the charge that you made. I think that your failure to
answer the questions that I asked indicates that there is no basis for
your charge against Mr. Lautner.
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I think I could say this to you, Mr. Scherer, that Mr.
Lautner, he didn't testify about me. He testified about some of the
people wliom he claims to have known or met in the past. Any one
who is going to talk in that manner before, I don't care what commit-
tee or where it is, who is going to talk about the political beliefs or
Avhat they assume to be the political beliefs of other people — this to
me is a stool pigeon and this is part of the whole
Mr. ScjiKRER. Irrespective of the fact that you call him a stool
pigeon, iri'especlive of what he talked about, what I want to know is
in what respect he told this conunittee an untruth.
Miss Damon. I think I called him a stool pigeon and he is well known
as a stool pigeon. He is part of that traveling circus of these paid
political informers who go from trial to trial ad nauseam.
The Chairman. To some people.
Miss Damon. I don't know that the American people like an in-
former very much. You take a schoolchild, they hate somebody who
squeals against them.
6274 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. You talk about smearing people. You talk about this
smearing and ^uilt by association. You are sitting here smearing a
man who is willing to come before this committee under oath and
testify, and you don't have the courage to say in what respect that
man told this committee an untruth.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Mr. Akens. I would like to clear up one point. Is your maiden
name Frances Damon ?
Miss Damon. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Then your full married name is Frances Damon Wil-
liams ; is that correct ?
Miss Damon. I am divorced.
Mr. Arens. You now use the name Frances Damon Williams, is
that correct ?
Miss Damon, Frances Damon is really
Mr. Arens. You have been known under the name of Frances Damon
Williams?
Miss Damon. Oh, yes.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, ma'am.
The Chairman. Is that all?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Russell Nixon, please come forward.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Nixon. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed, Counsel.
TESTIMONY OF ETJSS (RUSSELL) NIXON
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Nixon. My name is Russ Nixon. I live in New York City. It
is a matter of public record that I am the Washington representative
of the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. How long have you occupied that position ?
Mr. NixoN. Since 1941.
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to your
present job?
Mr. Nixon. Immediately prior ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. I was national representative of Labor's Nonpartisan
I^eague.
Mr. Arens. How long did you occupy that job?
Mr. Nixon. For a period of about a year. I don't know precisely,
but about a year.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Arens, T am going to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Unless he gives a better reason than that, Mr. Chainnan,
I respectfully suggest that he be ordered and directed to answer the
question.
The Chairman. For what reason are you declining to answer ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6275
Mr. Nixon. I would like to tell you the reason that I decline to
answer the question. There are two or three reasons which I would
like to bring to the attention of the committee.
First, I decline to answer any question of this committee regarding
my political views, activities, associations, or affiliations because I
believe that such questions violate my rights under the first amend-
ment of the Bill of Eights to the Constitution by which all citizens
are guaranteed freedom of speech and peaceful association.
Secondly, I decline to answer such questions because I refuse to be a
party to the Un-American Committee's repressive actions against the
spirit and practice of political freedom in my country. Particularly
with regard to these hearings which the committee says are directed
at political subversion I object on the ground that these hearings
could only be based on a legislative purpose that is profoundly un-
constitutional, namely, the restriction and harassment of the right of
citizens to seek tlirough legal means to influence the legislative actions
of Congress and directly attacking the right of citizens to petition for
the redress of grievances.
Thirdly, I decline to answer such questions on the grounds of the
protection that is afl'orded me by the fifth amendment of the Bill
of Rights which extends to all citizens the privilege not to be a witness
against liimself. I assert this privilege in view of the jeopardy which
I believe confronts me and every other unfriendly witness before this
committee when confronted by such questions.
I assert this fifth amendment privilege because I fear for myself
as well as others the invasion upon my liberty threatened by the
combination of the repressive thought control legislation now in
efl'ect and tlie allegations of perjurious witnesses.
I utilize tliis valued and I believe very necessary constitutional pro-
tection emphasizing that it was written into our Bill of Rights to
protect innocent persons and that its invocation is not evidence of
guilt of crime or wrongdoing.
For these reasons I decline to answer the question that you have
just asked me, and I will for tlie same reasons refuse to answer other
questions that I deem to be of the same character.
I sliould like to say now that when and if further such questions
are asked me and I say that I decline to answer for reasons already
stated, I hftve reference to this statement which I have just completed.
Mr. Akens. Now please tell us, sir, were you a participant in a
conference of the Soutliern California Conference to Defend the
Rights of Foreign Born Americans, February 195?), which mapped
a five-point figlit for the defense of the foreign born ?
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer that question for the reasons whicli
I have just stated, and if it will help you, Mr. Arens, I am going to
decline to answer any question you may ask me about any associations
or relations witli tlie American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born or any of tlie other grou})s in connection with it mentioned in
the proceedings which I heard today and yesterday-
Mr. Arf.ns. I lay before you, if you please, sir, a ^photostatic roy.y
of an article from the Daily People's "World, February 10, 195;), out-
lining a five-point fight for the defense of the foreign born, to end
Government harassment once and for all of foreign born, to defend
the rights of tlie foreign born Americans, and calling for the outright
repeal of the AVulter-McCarran Law, for repeal of the ''stoolpigeoiv'
6276 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Internal Security Act, and for similar legislation. Listed as one
of the trade union leaders participatino^ in the conference is one
Russell Nixon, Washington representative of the United Electrical
Workers, who according to this article "underscored the role of trade
unions in the fight against Walter-McCarran and similar legislation."
Please look at that, sir, and tell us whether or not in the exercise of
your political freedom which you were speaking of a little while ago
you participated in that conference.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 96," see appendix, pp. 7264, 7265.)
Mr. Ntxon. On the assumption that you have read correctly, it
must be obvious to you that I decline to answer that question for the
reasons already stated.
Mr. Arens. Yesterday before this committee a lady by the name of
Dorothy Funn Swan took an oath and swore that while she was a
member of the Communist Party she knew you as a Communist. Was
she lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. Nixon. Do you want to check your record on that? I think
he wants to say something to you about it.
Mr. Arens. Was Miss Funn lying when she took an oath before this
committee the other day and identified you as a Communist ?
Mr. Nixon. I refuse to answer your revised question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Nixon. For the reasons that I have already stated.
Mr. Arens. Did you keynote a Walter-McCarran conference mider'
the auspices of the Michigan Connnittee for Protection of Foreign
Born in October 195?,?
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer for tlie reasons T have given..
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the outline
of the conference of the Michigan Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born headlined "Russ Nixon to keynote Walter-]\IcCarran
Conference," to be held Smiday, Novembei' 22, in Detroit, Mich.
Please look at that, sir, and tell this committee while you are under
oath whether or not you did keynote the conference of this committee
to repeal or to emasculate the Walter-McCarran Act?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 97," see appendix, p. 7265.)
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer for the reasons already given.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article from
the Daily Worker of Tuesday, February 17, 1953, Avhicli states that a
delegation of prominent Americans will see the Commissioner of Im-
migi'ation in order to procure bail bond for Sam Milgrom, who is'
t eing held for deportation under the infamous McCarran-Walter Act.
Hlease look at that article and tell us whether or not that i-efreshes
lour recollection of whetlier or not you did go and see the Com-
t::ussioner of Immigration to try to get Sam Milgrom released under
bail.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 98," see ai)])endix, p. 7265.)
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer for reasons already given.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic
Mr. SdTERER. What is the name ?
Mr. Arens. Sam Milgrom. '
Mr. ScHERER. What was he held for?
Mr. Arens. For de])ortation as a Communist.
Now I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of a document
ifsued by the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born en-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6277
titled, "Help Kepeal the Walter-McCarran Law, Attend Public Hear-
ing." (Held March 21, 1954.) Among those who are to speak at this
conference are : Mr. Abner Green, executive secretary of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and Mr. Russ Nixon,
legislative director of the United Electrical Workers Union.
Please tell this committee now whether or not you did participate
in that conference to help repeal the Walter-McCarran law.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 5)1)," see appendix, p. 7^266.)
Mr. Nixon. In this, as in the other documents, you are asking me
about speeches which I am alleged to have made, and I decline to
answer on the gi-ounds I have already stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered as a lobbyist under the Lobbying
Act?
Mr. NixoK. It is a matter of public record that I am registered in
conformity with the law under the Lobbying Act.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend and participate in a session under
the auspices of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born on March 21, 1954, and did you in that conference advise those
in attendance to defy the FBI and any and all national and local
government investigative bodies ?
Mr. Nixon. I decline to discuss that on the basis of the grounds I
have already stated.
Mr. Arens. 1 put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that in that conference you did make a speech calling upon
the conferees to defy the FBI and any and all national and local Gov-
ernment bodies and urged the participants to write to their Congress-
men, or contact Congressmen for certain legislative purposes, in-
cluding the rei^eal or amendment of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Arens, you are putting something to me as a fact
which has very little bearing
Mr. Arens. Tell me whether or not it is true.
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer your question on the grounds that
I have stated.
Mr. Arens. Is it a fact that you did so ?
Mr. Nixon. Was my answer not clear ?
. Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the February
1954 issue of the March of Labor, which has been cited by this commit-
tee as a Communist-controlled publication, in which there is an article
by one Russ Nixon with reference to congressional action and legisla-
tion which must be fought, including the Walter-McCarran Act and
other sucli legislation. Kindly look at that, sir, and tell us whether
or not you wrote that article.
(Document n)!'.rked "Exhibit No. lOOa-c,'' see appendix, pp. 72(57-
7269.)
Mr. NixoN. I decline to respond on the grounds that I have already
stated.
Mr. Arens. xVs a UE public-i-elations man hei-e — or what is A'our
title?
Mr. Nixon. As I snid ;it the outset, I am the Washington represent-
ative of the union.
Mr. Arkns. As the Washington representative of the United Elec-
trical AVorkers organization
]Mr. Nixon. Union. It is a union.
Mr. Arens. I lay before yon, as Washington representative of the
LTnited Electrical organization, a photostatic copy of a UE press re-
85333— 57— pt. 1 10
6278 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
lease (June 2-'), 1954) with reference to certain of the activities of the
UE legislative-wise. Please look at that and tell us whether or not
you were the author of that press release.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. lOla-c," see appendix, pp. 7270-
7272.)
Mr. Nixon. I decline to respond and anaswer your question regard-
ing- this asserted release of the United Electrical and Radio and Ma-
chme Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. Have you been making reports from the Nation's capi-
tal to certain groups in Los Angeles from time to time ?
Mr. Nixon. Wouldn't you like to make that question a little more
precise, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Well, did yow make a report from the Nation's capital
to a little conference out in Los x^ngeles in April of 1956 ?
Mr. Nixon. It is still quite vague. Is that the best you can do?
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of making a report to a con-
ference in Los Angeles in April 1956, a Sixth Annual Conference to
Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend its Victims held in
Danish Auditorium in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Nixon. I should not have had to work so hard to make you be
specific. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I have already
stated.
Air. Akens. I lay before you now a document which is the program
and summary of [)roceedings of the Sixth Annual Conference to Repeal
tlie Walter-McCarran Law and Defend its Victims held in Los Angeles
in Danish Auditorium in which appears a keynote speech. Report
from the Nation's Capital, by Russ Nixon. Please tell this committee
whether or not you are that person and whether or not you made that
speech.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 102a-f," see appendix, pp. 7273-
7281.)
Mr. NixoN. I decline to answer that question about an asserted
speech I may have made on the gTOunds I have already stated to the
committee.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Victor Decavitch,
D-e-c-a-v-i-t-c-h?
Mr. NixoN. I decline to answer on the grounds already stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Decavitch identified you as a person who was known
by him to be a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he lying or
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. NixoN. I am not sure that I understand your use of the term
"Communist conspiracy.'' The man you used to work for. Senator
Eastland, says the Supreme Court decision on desegregation is a part
of the Communist conspiracy, and the man who opened these hearings
Iieie vesteida}^, Archibald Roosevelt, says that the ADA is a part of
the Communist conspiracy. So I don't know what you mean when
you use that term, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. What do you mean by the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Nixon. I am not going to discuss with you what I think about
that subject.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of tlie Connnunist Party?
?vlr. Nixon. You are repeating tlie (jnestion you asked me at the
beginning of the session.
Afr. Akens. I just wanted to make a distinction between the Com-
munist conspiracy and the Connnunist Party.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6279
Mr. Nixon. What are you doing? Are you asking me the question
you asked me or are you wondering something? I just want to be
precise, sir.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter-
rogation of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I think you would be interested in knowing that all
of the circulars you got out against me in my district were a great help
to me and swelled my majority to the greatest it has ever been.
Mr. Nixon. I am very sincerely sorry that is the result.
Mr. ScHERER. I have just one question.
The Chairman. I am sure of that, I don't want any Communist
support from you or anybody else.
Mr. ScHERER. The question counsel asked you, what was the witness'
name — Decavitch ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. When Mr. Decavitch identified you under oath as a
member of the Communist Party, was he telling the truth to this
committee?
Mr. NixoN. I think if you heard my answer to that same question
put by the counsel you will understand that my answer is, that I de-
cline to respond on the grounds that I have stated.
Mr. ScHERER. In your opening statement, witness, you talked about
allegations of witnesses before this committee whom you characterized
as "perjurious." Will you tell us in what respect any witness before
this committee lied about your activities in the Communist Party?
Mr. Nixon. I appreciate your asking me that question. It gives me
an opportunity to repeat what I did say and correct your impression.
I said I assert this fifth amendment privilege because I fear for myself
as well as others the invasion upon my liberty threatened by the com-
bination of the repressive thought-control legislation now in effect and
the allegations of perjurious witnesses.
Mr. ScHERER. All right, you said that there were allegations of per-
jurious witnesses before this committee. I am asking you
Mr. Nixon. Of course I didn't say that, Mr Scherer. I said what
I said I said. You can't make it something different. If you want to
ask me another question, that is all right ; but what I said is what I
Said. You can ask the reporter to repeat it to you if you wish, if you
don't trust my repetition.
Mr. ScHERER. I think I understand what you said.
Mr, Nixon. Very well.
Mr. Scherer, Do you claim, then, that you made no allegation in
your statement that there were perjurious witnesses before this com-
mittee ?
Mr, Nixon, I didn't happen to say anything about that subject, Mr,
Scherer, I said exactly what I said here. Do you want me to read it
a third time ? I would be very happy to do it,
Mr, Scherer, I want you to answer my question. You made no
charge, then, that there were allegations
Mr, Nixon, I said I did not discuss that question, sir. If you wish,
I will read the whole statement. I have time to do it.
Mr. Scherer. I^t me ask you, then : Is there any witness who testi-
fied before this committee who lied about voiir ('omnuniist activities?
6280 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Nixox. I will not discuss that subject before this committee, for
the reasons that I have already made very clear.
The Chairman. Anything more, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arexs. No more questions of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Emma Louise Mally.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but tlie truth, so help you God ?
Miss Mally. I swear.
TESTIMONY OF MISS EMMA LOUISE MALLY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, MILTON H. FRIEDMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occupa-
tion.
Miss Mally. Emma Louise Mally, 54 West 16th Street; occupation,,
writer.
Mr. Arens. Are j'ou appearing toda}^ in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities?
Miss Mally. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Miss Mally. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Friedman. Milton H. Friedman, F-r-i-e-d-m-a-n, New York.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs ?
Miss ALN.LLY. Miss Mally.
Mr. Arens. Miss Mally, I lay before you a photostatic reproduction
of a letterhead of the Committee to Defend Choon Clia and Chungsoon
Kwak (October 11, 1055), with the signature Louise Mally, secretary,
addressed to "Dear Friend,"' with reference to a deportation case, and
I ask you if you will kindly tell us if that is a correct reproduction of
your signature.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 103," see appendix, pp. 7281, 7282.)
Miss Mally. I know what you gentlemen think of these activities
designed to save the lives of fine and innocent people and no matter
what I think of them I decline to answer on the grounds th^t my answer
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, Miss Mally, that if you told this
committee the truth whether or not you are the secretary of the Com-
mittee to Defend Choon Cha and Chungsoon Kwak, you would he
supj)lying information wliicli might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
(Tlie witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Miss Mally. Are vou implving, sir. tliat mv answers are not
truthful?
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told me now whether
or not you have been secretary of this committee you Avould be giving
information which could be used against vou in a criminal proceeding?
•\ f ■\ m- Til* *
Miss Mally. 1 decline to answer on the gi-ounds that I gave, sir.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that last })rincipal question.
COMMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6281
The Chairman. Yes. You are directed to answer that question.
Miss Mally. Yes. I do honestly feel that.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Miss Malta'. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment, which i)rotects freedom of association; on the grounds of the
fifth amendment in that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Miss Mally, have you ever been an instructor at the
Jefferson School of Social Science ?
Miss Mally. I have.
Mr. Arens. Over what course of time were you an instructor there ?
Miss jVLa.lly. I think I began to teach in about 1943 or 1944, at the
time that the school was first formed, and I taught until approximately
1948. I taught poetry writing and Greek literature and translation.
I would like to ask you gentlemen if you feel that there is any reason
why poetry writing should not be taught, if you fear that students of
poetry might Avrite a Battle Hymn of the Republic or a new Marseil-
laise, if you fear that any one reading Greek literature and translation
might read the Trojan Women, the greatest antiwar play that has
ever been written in my opinion, and learn to protest against war and
the danger from the atomic bombs today ?
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while 3' ou
were teaching at the Jefferson School of Social Science?
Miss Mally. I have already declined to answer any questions per-
taining to membership in the Communist Party on the grounds that
the freedom of association is protected by the first amendment of our
Constitution and on the grounds of the fifth amendment, that that
answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. ScHERER. Witness, did you know at the time you were teaching
at the Jefferson School of Social Science that it was a Communist
school ?
Miss Mally. A Communist school, sir? I don't quite understand
the question. What is a Communist school?
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking you. You understand my question
perfectly.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mally. I don't believe that it was a Communist school.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you learn subsequently that it was controlled
and dominated by the Communist Party?
Miss Mally. I have had no such information.
Mr. Arens. Have you been an instructor likewise in the School for
Contemporary Writers?
Miss Mally. Yes, I think I taught one course there in poetry
writing.
Mr. Arens. Where was that?
Miss Mally. It was in New York. I forget where it was held.
Mr. Arens. Was that 87 East 19th Street?
Miss Mally. It might have been. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about when it was that you were an in-
structor there?
Miss Mally. It was probably 1947 or 1948. I don't remember.
Mr, Arens. At what other schools have you been an instructor be-
sides the Jefferson School and the School for Contem]30i-ary Writers?
Miss Mally. I have been an instructor in no other school to the best
of my recollection. I think I gave a lecture once at Columbia Uni-
6282 CORIMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
versity at the request of a professor who had to go to a funeral, on
mythology.
Mr. Arexs. Now I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of an
article appearing in PM, under date of April 30, 1947, which is a paid
advertisement in behalf of the 1947 Communist May Day celebrations,
in which there appear a number of people sponsoring the May Day
celebration including the name of one Louise Mally, and I ask you if
you have a recollection of lending your name to that cause.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 104," see appendix, p. 7283.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mally. Absolutely no recollection.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
The Chairman. Miss Mally, you were on this Committee To Defend
Choon Cha and Chungsoon Kwak?
Miss Mally. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairjian. You were secretary. Did you raise money in this
endeavor ?
Miss Mally. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Hoav long had these men been in the United States ?
Miss Mally. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. What were the grounds for the deportation ?
IMiss Mally. I beg your pardon ?
The Chairman. What were the grounds for deportation ?
Miss Mally. If I ever knew, and I probably did at one time
The Chairman. If you were secretary of the organization you
knew ; did you not ?
Miss Mally. Time passes very quickly and at times I have a rather
bad memory.
The CiTAiRM.' X. This was only a year ago, Miss Mally.
Miss IMally. I have had other things on my mind, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Miss Mally, I lay before you a photostatic copy of an
article from the Daily AVorker of May 14, 1947, which lists you as a
member of the Committee To Defend JDon West. Please look at that
article and tell us whether or not that identification is true or false.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 105," see appendix, p. 7284.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mally. I seem to have been honored in many cases that I don't
remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of being on that Committee
To Defend Don West?
Miss Mally. I have no recollection.
Mr. Arens. Wlio was Don West ; do you know ?
Miss Mally. I am not absolutely sure.
Mr. Arens. What is your best recollection ?
Miss Mally. I believe he is a minister in the South, but I don't
think I have ever even met him.
Mr. Arens. What was your connection with him; do you know"?
Miss Mally. I had no connection witli him. I don't think I have
ever even met him.
< OMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6283
Mr. Arens. "Nc'W I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article
from the Daily "Vv^orker of May 25, 1948, listing you as one of the
sponsors in protest against the anti-Communist Mundt bill when it
was in tlie House of Representatives. Please look at tliat and see if
that designation is true or false.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 106,'' see appendix, p. 7285.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
iNIiss Mally. I have no recollection of this, but I would certainly
have been glad to lend my name under the circumstances. I certainly
am opposed to such bills.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you the discussion outline for the fight
against the Mundt-Nixon bill issued by the national education depart-
ment of the Communist Party. Miss Mally, please examine that
document and tell us whether or not you have received that document
and utilized that in any activities hj yourself against the legislation
which 5'ou liave just alluded to.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 107,'" see appendix, pp. 7286-7289.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mallt. I can't remember but in all probability I never saw
it and certainly never read it.
The Chairman. Let me interrupt at this point.
Miss Mally, I have been advised that these two Koreans for whom
you were interceding had been in the United States a few years and
Avere Communists, preaching communism and teaching communism,
and that is Avhy they were under deportation order. Did you know
tliat at the time you were on this committee ?
Miss Mally. I have no knowledge of their political affiliations, and
certainly they never preached anything to me.
The Chairman. I don't suppose that was necessary, but did you
know that they were Communists?
Miss Mally. I say I have no knowledge and had no knowledge of
their political affiliations. I never asked. I do not inquire about the
politics of people I know.
The Chairman. When you interceded in their behalf and organized
a committee in order to try to prevent their deportation, did you know
that they were under deportation order for advocating the overthrow
of the United States Government, these aliens?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss INIally. I have never heard that they were charged with plot-
ting the overthrow of the Government. I had heard that they were
opposed to the government of Syngman Rhee. That is why it was
dangerous for them to have been deported. As a matter of fact, it
would have meant their death by torture, I understood. It is gen-
erally acknowledged by many people of various political persuasions,
I should suppose, that the government of Syngman Rhee, that Syng-
man Rhee himself was a murderer. I knew these to be fine people.
That is all I knew about them. I kneAv that their lives were in danger.
The Chairman. Didn't you know that they were under deportation
to Europe, not to Korea? They came to the United States from
Europe.
Miss Mally. They were supposed to be depoi-ted to Sj'ngman Rhee's
government. They were not, fortunately. But this was the thing that
was being fought against, that their lives might not be in danger.
6284 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The CiiAiRMAx. You know all about that, but still you don't know
the grounds for deportation. Is that what you want us to understand ?
Miss Mally. The grounds, the actual ground for deportation I
remember now — I didn't a minute ago — was that they had overstayed
their leave in this country that, whatever the technical name is, had
been over-stayed. This was the technical grounds as presented, if I
am not mistaken, at the hearing of the deportation, whatever it is in
New York.
Mr. Arens. I lay before yon now a photostatic copy of an article
from the Daily Worker of October 18, 1948, in which you are identified
as one of 34 individuals described as protesting the conviction of the
officers of the Joint Anti-Fascist Eerugee Committee, for failure to
produce certain records before the House Committee on Un-American
Activities. Kindly look at that document and see whether or not that
description and characterization of you is true or false.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 108,'' see appendix, p. 7290.)
Miss Mali.y. I would certainly have protested that had I been in this
country at the time. On October 18, 1948, to the best of my recollec-
tion and belief, I was in Scotland.
Mr. Arens. Did you authorize the use of j'our signature ?
Miss Mally. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time protest the use of your signature by
the Communist group here in defending the Anti-Fascist Refugee
Committee ?
]\Iiss Mally. This is the first I knew that my signature wtis used.
I would not have protested.
Mr. Arens. It wouldn't make any difference to you whether you
were in Scotland or here anyway ; is that it ?
Miss Mally. I am merely stating the facts.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter to
the editor, appearing in the Compass in December 1949, a letter
ostensibly written by yourself, E. Louise Mally, for the Bookfair
Committee.
Kindly tell this committee what is the Bookfair Committee?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 109," see appendix, p. 7291.)
(The witness conferred wdth her counsel.)
Miss Mally. This was a committee to the best of my recollection —
and I did wa-ite that letter — which put on the sale of books, among
others a book by me.
Mr. Arens. Who were the officers of the group ?
Miss JNIally. I have forgotten.
Mr. Arens. Where was its headquarters ?
Miss Mally. Somewhere in New York.
Mr. Arens. What was your position with the committee ?
Miss Mally. I think somebody asked me to write a letter. I
don't think I had a position.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall who it was who asked you to write the
letter?
Miss Mally. No ; I do not.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the American Women for Peace
that traveled to Washington to demand the dismantling of atomic
bombs ?
Miss Mally. My concern, sir, has always been for peace.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6285
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question first, ma'am. Were you a
member of this American Women for Peace delegation that came to
Washington in 1950 ?
Miss IVLvLLY. I certainly demand the end of the atomic bomb and
the end of getting strontium 90 into the milk of our children with
cancer. But as far as American Women for Pe-ace or any other organ-
ization of this sort is concerned, I know what you think of these
activities which are designed to save the lives of all mankind, mid I
invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question.
Miss Mally. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you come to Washington in 1950 to protest the use
or to protest the development of the atom bomb by the United States
of America?
Miss Mally. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the American Women for
Peace?
Miss Mally'. I decline to answer on the ground that the answer
might tend to incriminate me. All women should protest.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker of June 8, 1949, contains an article
to the effect that the Civil Rights Congress of New York annomiced
that the imprisonment of the three Communist leaders has resulted in
scores of prominent individuals adding their names and support to
a Conference on Civil and Human Eights on Saturday, June 25.
Listed as one of the sponsors of this group is an E. Louise Mally.
Please look at that article and tell us whether or not j'ou were one of
the sponsors of this Civil Rights Congress to protest all these things.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 110," see appendix, p. 7292.)
It is my name. I have no recollection of it.
Mr. Arens. Did you in 1949 join in a delegation described in the
Daily Worker as trade-union leaders and cultural leaders, in pro-
testing the jailing of the Communist traitors who were tried by Judge
Medina ?
Miss Mally'. What do you mean by traitors, sir ?
Mr. Arens. The Communists who were convicted under the Smith
Act by Judge Medina for conspiring to overthrow the Government
of the United States by force and violence.
Miss Mally. Were they convicted as traitors ? I do not believe so.
Mr. Arens. Irrespective of what they were convicted of, did you
join in a protest against their jailing?
Miss Mally. I may have done so. I have no recollection.
Mr. Arens. Were you part of a delegation that called on Judge
Medina to try to protest this proceeding?
Miss Mally. I don't believe I ever saw Judge IMedina in my life.
Mr. Arens. Did you try to see him ?
Miss Mally'. I may liave. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. An article in the Daily Worker of October 1952 makes
reference to a delegation of the American Peace Crusade which called
on the U. N. delegates to bring an end to the slaughter in Korea and
for an immediate crease-fire. Were you a member of the American
Peace Crusade ?
(Document marked "Exhibit Xo. Ill," see appendix, pp. 7292,
7293.)
Miss MaUjY. I certainly supported all efforts to bring peace in the
world. I would support it today.
6286 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the American Peace Crusade?
Miss Mali.y. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that will conclude the staff interrogation
of this witness.
The Chairman. No questions.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Will Mr. Hugh Mulzac please come forward. Please
raise your right hand and be sworn.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Mulzac. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HUGH MULZAC, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Mulzac. Hugh Mulzac, M-u-1-z-a-c, 106-61 Kuscoe Street,
Jamaica, Long Island. Unemployed.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Mulzac. By counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Mulzac, are you a Communist ?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that question. I invoke the fifth
amendment, because I may incriminate myself.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Mulzac, I lay before you now a photostatic repro-
duction from the Lamp, page 2, which is the official publication of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. This edi-
tion is the March-April edition of 1954. Reference is made in the
upper right-hand corner of this page to a Conference To Repeal the
Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims and the establishment
of a New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Among
the officers elected was Capt. Hugh Mulzac, chairman. Please look
at that and tell us whether or not that is an accurate description of
yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 112," see appendix, p. 7294.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I see my name here.
Mr. Arens. Were you ? We don't want any perhaps about it. Were
you the chairman of this New York Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Mi'LZAc. I refuse to answer. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. MuTvZAC. Because I may incriminate myself.
Mr. Arens. Did you do anything wrong when you accepted the
chairmanship of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer whether I did anything wrong or
not. I refuse to answer on the same fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6287
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a reproduction of a letter con-
cerning a New York Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign
Born Americans, to be held March 19, 1955, under the auspices of the
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. The cochair-
man of this conference is one Capt. Hugh Mulzac. Is that an accu-
rate identification and description of yourself ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 113," see appendix, p. 7295.)
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. You are called Captain Mulzac ; aren't you ?
Mr. Mlklzac. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were a ship captain at one time ; were you not ?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of a
booklet issued by the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born entitled "The Walter-McCarran Law — Strait Jacket for
American Liberties."
Do you recognize that document as one of those which was pub-
lished under your auspices while you were chairman of the New York
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 114a, b," see appendix, pp. 7296,
7297.)
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that, and I invoke the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Is the Walter-McCarran law in your judgment, as chair-
man of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a
strait] acket for American liberties?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that also. I refuse to answer it
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered as a lobbyist ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. No, I am not registered.
Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in any activities desigTied to in-
fluence the passage of legislation ?
Mr. Mulzac. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you undertaken to cause the repeal of the Walter-
McCarran Immigration Act?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I invoke the fifth amendment. The answer I am mak-
ing now is the same as the previous answers I have made.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you the program for a conference on March
19, 1955, which was held under the auspices of the New York Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which are set forth the names of
a great number of people, probably three or four dozen people, all of
whom according to this pamphlet are facing deportation and are to be
honored by the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Please look at that list and tell us the name of a single one who wasn't
up for deportation because he was a Communist.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 115a-f," see appendix, pp. 7298-
7303.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that under the protection of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. The truth is, is it not, that every one of these ]>ersons
who was being honored by your committee was up for deportation be-
cause he was a Communist ?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that. I don't know.
6288 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. This is a very interesting thing because it shows
that all of these aliens facing deportation had been residents of the
United States for a maximum of 51 years and a minimum of 17 years,
and none of them was a citizen of the United States. These are aliens
who were Communists and under deportation.
Mr. MuLZAC. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. I think it is about time the committee organized
a committee to protect the foreign born from alien agents instead of
the connnittee that you have.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document, which is a blank orig-
inal petition to the Congress of the United States, issued under the
auspices of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
in which this organization is attacking the Walter-McCarran law as
being one of police-state conditions, persecuting thousands of non-
citizens and threatening the Bill of Rights, and similar denunciations
of the law.
Did your organization send that petition to any of the Members of
the Congress of the United States ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 116," see appendix, p. 730-1.)
Mr. MuLZAC. I decline on the same grounds, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Captain, did you attend certain conferences to defend
the rights of the foreign born in 1954 ?
Mr. MuLZAc. I decline to answer that. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a summary of' the proceedings
of a National Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans under date of December 1954, in which Capt. Hugh Mulzac
is chairman of the proceedings. Please tell us whether or not that
is an accurate description of yourself and of your participation in that
proceeding.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
Mr. Mtjlzac. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What is UNAVA, United Negro and Allied Veterans
of America, Inc. ? What is that organization ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
I do not know.
Mr. Arens. Aren't you a member of the board of the United Negro
and Allied Veterans of America, Inc. ?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of letter-
head of the United Negi'o and Allied Veterans of America, Inc.,
national headquarters, Washington, D. C, in which you are listed,
among others, as a member' of the national advisory board of that
organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 117," see appendix, p. 7305.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Did you join with a number of others in assailing the
arrest of the Comnnmisf Party leaders \\lio were tried in Foley
Square by Judge Medina ?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline under the fifth amendment to answer that.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Communist
Daily Worker of August 23, 1948, in which the article (entitled "Ne-
gro Leaders Assail Arrests of CP Leaders," pp. 3 and 11) lists a
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6289
number of people who joined in a statement protesting arrest of these
Communists, including Capt. Hugh Mulzac. Did you let your name
be used in that statement ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 118," see appendix, p. 7306.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that. I invoke tlie fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Why? Were you ashamed to do that?
Mr. Mulzac. Ashamed?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Needleman. Let him answer the question.
Mr. Arens. I will take care of myself here.
Mr. Needleman. I am taking care of the witness. You asked him
why.
Mr. Chairman, he asked him why and before he could answer he
posed another question. This man is over 70 years old. Mr. Chair-
man; this man is over 70 years old.
The Chairman. Just a moment. If you will both keep quiet we
will get this straightened out. Answer that first question.
Mr. Arens. Are you ashamed of the fact that you lent your name
to the petition on behalf of these Communists?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that question, under the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Where did you get the title "captain"?
Mr. Mulzac. Any man that is licensed by the United States Gov-
ernment as an oceangoing, seagoing captain has that title and the
title goes with him until he dies.
The Chairman. Did you have your certificate revoked ?
Mr. Mulzac. No.
The Chairman. You still have your certificate?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
The Chairman. Did the Coast Guard revoke your clearance ?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Mulzac. Well, I think you had better find out from the Coast
Guard. I don't know.
The Chairman. I will tell you, it was because you were a Comnui-
nist; isn't that it i'.
Mr. Mi LZAC. 1 decline to answer that.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Arens. Who is Ferdinand Smith?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Did you issue a statement in 1948 protesting the arrest
of Ferdinand Smith, the Communist secretary of the National Mari-
time Union, and saying, "P^very lionest American seaman has an
especially warm feeling for Smith"?
Mr. Mulzac. 1 decline to answer that nnder the fifth aineudnuMit.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily '\^'ork(n• of February 23, 11)48 (page 4) in'which you are
quoted as making that statement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 119," see appendix, p. 7307.)
Mr. Needleman. Mr. Chairman, so the record may be clear on sev-
eral questions, the witness simply said "I decline," and then something
else went on. I suppose it is understood it is on the fifth amendment.
6290 ' COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. It is understood that when he says "I declme" it is
because he is invoking the fifth amendment.
Mr. MuLzAc. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I la}^ before you now a photostatic copy of the original
letterhead, article, and signatures of the Conference on Peaceful Alter-
natives to the Atlantic Pact, under the date of August 21, 1949, includ-
ing the signature of Capt. Hugh Mulzac, and I ask you whether or not
you lent your si j;nature and name to that enterprise.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 120a-d," see appendix, pp. 7308-
7311.)
Mr. MuLZAC. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you been identified with the American Peace
Crusade ?
Mr. MuLZAC. I also decline to answer that invoking the fifth amend-
ment on that.
Mr. Arens. Did you call on the Secretary of the Army back in 1951
here in Washington leading a delegation of the American Peace
Crusade?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. MuLZAC. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. You have no recollection of that ?
Mr. MuLZAC. No. I have no recollection of that.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the Com-
mmiist Daily Worker of July 3, 1950 (p. 2) containing a ])icture of
yourself, Captain Mulzac, and Paul Kobeson, and the names of others
who w-ere in a rally sponsored by the Council on African Affairs,
protesting United States military action in Korea. Do you recall
doing that?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 121," see appendix, p. 7312.)
Mr. Mui.zAC. I decline to answer that, I refuse to answer that under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Citizens Emergency Defense
Conference?
Mr. MuLZAC. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. You are vice chairman of that organization; are you
not?
Mr. MuLZAc. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Just look at this letterhead of the Citizens Emergency
Defense Conference in which you are listed as vice chairman of the
Citizens Emergency Defense Conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 122," see appendix, p. 7313.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer and I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the leaders in the fight against
screening of Communists by the Coast Guard ?
Mr. ^luLZAC. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of March 19, 1956 (p. 1) in wdiich you are identi-
fied as one of the rank leaders, chairman of a Seamen's Defense Com-
mittee which, in cooperation with the Emergency Civil Liberties
Committee, has been protesting and opj^osing the screening pro-
cedures of the Coast Guard. Please look at that and tell us whether
or not that is an accurate portrayal of your role in that organization.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 123," see appendix", p. 7314.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6291
Mr. MuLZAC. I refuse to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now in answer to the chairman's question a little while
ago I invite your attention to the New York Journal American, Sep-
tember 8, 1951 (p. 3), and see if this does not give an accurate descrip-
tion of yourself.
Hugh IMulzae, a merchant marine captain whose wartime career was widely
publicized by the Communist Party in its publications, has been refused further
maritime duties by the Coast Guard, it was learned today.
Declared a "bad security risk" by the Coast Guard, Mulzac, a Negro, may have
his master's license revoked after a hearing scheduled next month in Wash-
ington. * * *
Please look at that article and tell this committee whether or not
your license was revoked because you were a Communist and you
were a threat to the security of this country.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 124," see appendix, p. 7315.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I am going to tell the committee this : My license is
not revoked. The Coast Guard hasn't proved anything against me,
and the Coast Guard cannot take my license away. I have been
suffering as a discriminated Negro ever since I came to this country,
and I would be less than a human being, less than a citizen, if I didn't
fight back for my rights. Some of these organizations that you are
talking about, if you think that I should not be in them, you should,
for instance, give me the right of a citizen in this country. Let me
have work to do.
The Chairman". Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Mulzac. I have to be a citizen to have a license as master of
an oceangoing vessel.
The Chairman. If you still have a license, why aren't you working?
Mr. MuLZAK. Because I am denied the privilege of working through
no fault of my own, through discrimination.
The Chairman. Are you a Communist ?
Mr. MuLzAK. I refuse to answer that question because
The Chairman. Because why ?
Mr. MuLZAK. I refuse to answer that question. I invoke the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Maybe that is the reason you are not working.
Mr. MuLzAK. Because I invoke the fifth amendment?
The Chairman. No, because you are a Communist. Is that the
reason?
Mr. MuLzAK. You are telling me I am a Communist? Have you
]^roved that I am one ?
The Chairman. We are not here to prove anything at all.
Mr. MuLzAK. Tliere you are.
Tlie Chairman. I was telling you why you may not be working.
ISIr. MuLzAK. I don't have to incriminate myself. I am not that
stupid to do that.
The Chairman. I understand that all right.
Mr. Arens. No further questions of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Have you another witness?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Alec Jones, please come forward.
Please remain standing while the Chairman administers the oath
to you.
6292 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr, Jones. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALEC JONES. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Akens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Jones. My name is Alec Jones. I live at ii'2'2 ^Yest 114th
Street, New York City. So far as my occupation is concerned, I
would like to avail myself of the privilege given to me under the
fiith amendment and the Bill of Rights of the United States
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present job ?
Mr. Jones. Three years.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel today ?
Mr. Jones. That is wrong. A year and a half.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel today ?
Mr. Jones. I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself.
Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Xeedleman, 105 Broadwav, New York
N. Y.
Mr. Arens. This subpena which requires your presence here today
requires you also to bring certain documents, does it not, Mr. Jones ?
Mr. Jones. I believe it does.
Mr. Arens. Are you the custodian of the documents called for in
the subpena duces tecum ?
Mr. Jones. I am not.
Mr. Arens. Do you have access to those documents ?
Mr. Jones. I am not.
Mr. Arens. Who does have access to those documents ?
Mr. Jones. At this point I can't say. I don't Imow.
Mr. Arens. Who is secretary of the New York Coimiiittee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Jonp:s. No one.
Mr. Arens. Wlio is the chairman of the New York Connnittee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Jones. No one. It is out of business.
Mr. Arens. When did it go out of business ?
Mr. Jones. To the best of my recollection, about 13 or 11 months
ago.
Mr. Arens. Were you connected with the New York Connnittee for
Protection of Foreign Born before it went out of business ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Conmiunist?
Mr. Jones. Again I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What caused the New York (>)nnnittee for Protection
of Foreign Born to go out of business, do you know *
Mr. Jones. I decline to answer tlvat question, again availing myself
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did it ffo underground?
CO^IMIJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6293
Mr. Jones. I decline again on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. "V^Hiere and when were you born ?
Mr. Jones. Boston, Mass. Did you ask me when or where?
Mr. Ahens. Both.
Mr. Jones. You didn't. You asked me one. 1923.
Mr. Arens. And give us a word about your education.
Mr. Jones. I went to school in Boston, the University of Minnesota-.
That is it.
Mr. Arens. 'V^Hien did you graduate from the University of
Minnesota ?
Mr. Jones. I left the University of Minnesota, I believe it was in
1947.
Mr. Arens. And tell us your occupation after your graduated from
the University of Minnesota.
Mt. Jones. I avail myself of the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is there any period in your life since the time you
graduated from the University of Minnesota concerning which you
can tell this committee about your employment without giving in-
formation that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness conferred with Ms coimsel.)
Mr. Jones. I worked for the CIO in Minnesota.
Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you worked for the CIO
in IMinnesota ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you been the author of certain treatises, works,
certain magazine articles during your career ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
entitled "Kacist Law Begins To Grind — The infamous McCarran-
Walter immigration law threatens the right of noncitizens and nat-
uralized citizens and ultimately of all of us," by Alec Jones. This
appears in Jewish Life under date of December 1952. Did you author
that article attacking this legislation by the Congress as an infamous
piece of legislation ?
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 125a, b," see appendix, pp. 7316,
7317.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What have you done from the standpoint of undertak-
ing to affect legislation by the Congress ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I think the record should show at this point, if you
please Mr. Chairman, that the publication in which this article ap-
pears has been cited as a Communist publication.
Mr. Jones, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Communist
Daily Worker of February 23, 1953 (p. 8). Look down here, if
you please, at the lower right-hand corner which identifies you,
Alec Jones, as assistant national secretary of the Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. Were you assistant national secretary of
the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born on February 23, 1953?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 126," see appendix, p. 7318.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I direct your attention, if you please, Mr. Jones,
to The Lamp, of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, of April 1954 (March-April 1954, p. 2), in which reference
85333— 57— pt. 1 11
6294 COJVIMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
is made to a delegation being sent to Washington for the purpose of
doing certain things to affect the immigration system of this country.
Among others who were :n this delegation is Alec Jones, executive
secretary of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom.
(See exhibit No. 112, appendix, p. 7294.)
Mr. Arens. Please look at that document and tell us whether or not
that is a true and accurate description of your activities.
Did you come to "Washington in 1954?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Did you come to Washington at any time in connection
with a conference on legislation ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
IMr. Aeens. Now I lay before you, if you please, a photostatic copy
of the letterhead of the New York Conference To Repeal the Walter-
McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims (dated January 21, 1954)
You appear as one of the officials of this organization. Please look
at this document and tell us whether or not you are properly listed
here as the secretary of this organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 127," see appendix, p. 7319.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you the head of the Fight Back Rally in defense
of the American Committee for Protection of Foi-eign Born held in
May 1955?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter of May
19, 1955, of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
with your name signed here as executive secretary. Please look at that
and tell this committee whether or not that is an accurate description
of yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 128a, b," see appendix, pp. 7320,
7321.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now look at this document: Walter-McCarran Law
Police-State Conditions, The Story Behind the Story, issued by the
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Did you
prepare this docuinent or have anything to do with its distribution?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 129," see appendix, p. 7322.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Here is still another document : New York Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, for Release, Executive Secretary
Alec Jones.
Look at that document and tell us Avliether or not tliat is or.e of
the publications of your coramittee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 130," see appendix, p. 7323.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to a docu-
ment which is the March of' Labor for May 1952, in which there is
an article by Alec Jones, entitled "Deportation for Dissent. Union
Building Is Their Crime," which is a vigorous attack against the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6295
immigration laws by one Alec Jones. Let's tell this committee
whether or not that is the article which you wrote.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. laia-c," see appendix, pp. 7324-
7326.)
Mr. Jones, I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Who is the deportee ?
Mr. Arens. In this particular article there are a great number that
he alludes to here, all of whom we have checked and found to be
members of the Communist conspiracy.
The Chairman. It is certainly significant that they never lift a
finger for those poor white slavery and poor dope peddlers and other
poor fellows, only for Communists.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you still another document entitled
"The Walter-McCarran Law — Strait Jacket for American Liberties,"
issued by the New York Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born,
of which you have been identified as the executive secretary. Please
tell us whether or not you had a hand in preparing that pamphlet.
(See exhibit No. 114a, b, appendix, pp. 7296, 7297.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself oi the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. According to the Daily People's World, the Commu-
nist publication of the west coast, in 1953 you sent a letter in to the
People's World (February 20, 1953, p. 5) praising them in their
campaign for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran law. Please look at
this exhibit and see if you recall sending that letter which is attrib-
uted to you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 132," see appendix, p. 7327.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to a repro-
duction of an article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker
(Feb. 25, 1954, p. 5) by one Alec Jones, entitled "Conference Saturday
Will Map Fight on Walter-McCarran Law." Why don't you tell
this committee now what you did to map this fight on the Walter-
McCarran law in the interest of humanity, as you indicate in your
article ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 133," see appendix, p. 7328.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you still another article under your
authorship: "Action-plan on McCarran-Walter." A plan of action
must be taken to repeal the McCarran-Walter Act and to defend its
victims, all being done under the auspices of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and its affiliate groups. This
article appears in Jewish Life, by Alec Jones (January 1954 issue,
p. 14). Please look at that and tell us whether or not you recall being
the author of that article.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 134," see appendix, p. 7329.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to an article in the Bea-
con with respect to the activities of the New York Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, of which you were the executive secre-
tary. At the left-hand column of this page we see a number of peo-
Sle indicated here as participants in various committees created by the
few York Committee. We see a Yugoslav Committee, a Greek Com-
mittee, a Ukrainian Committee, a Finnish Committee, a Rose Nelson
Committee and a Sons and Daughters Committee, all to be stimu-
86333—57 11
6296 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
lated to write and visit their Congressmen for the repeal of the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act.
Please look at that now and tell the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities if you know of the existence of such organizations al-
luded to in that publication.
(See exhibit No. 23b, appendix, p. 7122, Y123.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Aeens. The fact is that your committee and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born have created hundreds of such
organizations, fronts in front of this front, all for the purpose of de-
stroying this law. Is that not true ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to the
Daily Worker of February 14, 1956 (p. 8) in which it talks about
a new committee being formed, the Keller Defense Committee, which
was formed to defend a man by the name of James Keller, formed
out in Chicago, all under the auspices of Alec Jones, education direc-
tor of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, who
was going to be one of the speakers. Look at that article and tell this
committee whether or not that is a true and accurate representation
of your participation in that conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 135," see appendix, p. 7330.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What is the Sons and Daughters Defense Committee?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You participated in the creation of a Sons and Daugh-
ters Defense Committee, did you not ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that you did, on behalf of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, participate in
the formulation of an organization known as a Sons and Daughters
Defense Committee for the purpose of emasculating the Walter-Mc-
Carran Immigration and Nationality Act.
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You have done a great deal of traveling in the last year
or two, have you not ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness at this point be
ordered and directed to answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I have done a lot of traveling.
Mr. Arens. You have been in most of the States of the Union in
the course of the last few years in the pursuit of this work that you
can't tell us about?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. How many States?
Mr. Arens. Yes, about how many States, pretty well over the
Union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I have traveled about. I don't know how many States.
Mr. Arens. Has this traveling been in pursuance of the work that
you are engaged in or has it been travel for pleasure ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6297
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document with reference to
your participation in the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in 1953. Look at the document and tell us whether or not
that is a true representation of your activities in that regard.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 136," see appendix, p. 7331.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document with respect to the
Midwest Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend
the Rights of Foreign Born Americans, in which, according to this
conference program Mr. Alec Jones, educational director of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, is to give a
report. Look at that and tell us whether or not you participated in
that program.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 137," see appendix, p. 7332.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Joseph Forer? Do you know him?
Mr. Jones. I know him. He is a lawyer.
Mr. Arens. And David Rein ? Do you know him ?
Mr. Jones. I know him also.
Mr. Arens. Did your organization, the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, hold a testimonial banquet for Mr.
Joseph Forer and David Rein under date of March 1956 ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. October 1956 as indicated by this exhibit?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 138," see appendix, pp. 7333-
7349.)
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter
from yourself to Mr. Seymour Kaplan, banquet manager, Hotel Bel-
mont Plaza, enclosing a check for $100 for a testimonial dinner for
Thursday, October 11, 1956. Please tell this committee for whom
that testimonial dinner was to be held.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 139," see appendix, p. 7350.)
Mr. Jones. I refuse to answer. I avail myself of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in a National Conference of De-
portee Defense Committees in Chicago in 1951 ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you create or participate in the creation of the
Minneapolis Joint Committee Against Deportation ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the creation of the Tony Sentner
Defense Committee ?
Mr. Jones. I avail m3^self of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Bom?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr, Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Resnikoff Defense Committee?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
6298 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. The American-Polish Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Committee for Protection of Greek- Americans ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Finnish-American Freedom Committee?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Lithuanian-American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Czechoslovak Committee for Protection of Foreign
Bom?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Hungarian-American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Harisiades-Taffler Neighborhood Defense Com-
mittee ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The American- Yugoslav Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Jones. The same answer,
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that, in each and every one of these instances of organizations
and committees, you were one of the founding fathers of the
organizations.
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Anything further, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. Will Miss Belle Bailynson come forward, please, and
remain standing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are
about to give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Bailynson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS BELLE BAILYNSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, DAVID SCRIBNER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by residence and occupation.
Miss Bailynson. My name is Belle Bailynson. I live at 1425 Third
Avenue, New York. I work in a factory. I am a wirer and solderer.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Miss Bailynson. I am.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6299
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel. Will counsel identify
himself ?
Mr. ScRiBNER. David Scribner, of 9 East 40th Street, New York
City.
Mr.. Arens. Miss Bailynson, I show you a photostatic copy of the
official publication of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born entitled, "The Lamp," February-March 1951 (p. 2),
in which we see an article entitled "Prominent Women Organize Na-
tional Women's Appeal." A National Women's Appeal for the Rights
of Foreign Born Americans was organized and Belle Bailynson is iden-
tified in this article as national secretary. Kindly look at that photo-
static copy of that article and tell this committee whether or not that
is a true and accurate identification of yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 140," see appendix, p. 7351.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee whether
or not you were the national secretary of the National Women's Appeal
for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans you would be supplying
information which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Miss Bailynson. It might.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Miss Bailynson. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of William Wallace ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. William Wallace told this committee that he knew
you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Miss Bailynson. Fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Miss Bailynson, I direct your attention to the original
copy of an article from the Communist Daily Worker of January
1951 (January 19, 1951, p. 8). I lay it before j^ou now. You will note
that the article states that certain individuals were officers of a newly
formed National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans. Can you tell us about that organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 141," see appendix, p. 7352.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you an original of a receipt of the
National Women's Appeal, a receipt for $25 to one Uta Hagen, and
ask you if you have knowledge of the process by which Miss Hagen
made a contribution to the National Women's Appeal.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 142," see appendix, p. 7353.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to an original check signed
by Uta Hagen, which is endorsed by the National Women's Appeal and
then has a subsequent endorsement by the American Committee for
Protection- of Foreign Born, and ask you if the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born has an interlocking relationship with
the National Women's Appeal.
(See exiiibit 24, appendix, p. 7126.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you an original article from the Comnmnist
Daily Worker (May 18, 1951, p. 3) entitled "Women Visit Capital,
6300 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Assail McCarran Drive," with reference to a number of women in a
delegation who came to Washington, according to this article, to pro-
test certain of the provisions of the Internal Security Act against
Communists and who protested against the Commissioner of Immi-
gration with reference to the imminent deportation of about 170 per-
sons and ask you if you were a participant in that movement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 143," see appendix, p. 7354.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to a document (photostatic
copy of p. 2 of The Lamp, October-November, 1951) with reference
to the National Women's Appeal conducting a campaign for certain
aliens and ask you if you will kindly identify that document for us.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 144," see appendix, p. 7355.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Did the National Women's Appeal of which you were
the national secretary hold a reception in the Jewish Cultural Center
in 1951 in Detroit?
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the program
of that reception in 1951 in Detroit and ask you if you will kindly
identify it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 145a, b," see appendix, pp. 7356,
7357.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee how many people are in National
Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Wliat have you done in the course of the last few years
to assert your views on legislative matters ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a document of the National Wo-
men's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans entitled
"Save Them From Banishment and Death" in which the recipient is
urged to write to Congressmen urging them to "support the repeal of
the Walter- McCarran Law" and "help repeal the modern 'Alien and
Sedition' Law — the Walter- McCarran Act. Halt the persecution of
foreign born. Safeguard and maintain the American home and fam-
ily" against the attacks of those who are undertaking to enforce this
act.
Kindly tell this committee whether or not you had a hand in pre-
paring that publication of the National Women's Appeal.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 146a-d," see appendix, pp. 7358-
7361.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the fifth amendment privilege.
The Chairman. Let me see that.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a woman by the name of Miriam Doyle?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Miriam Doyle replaced you as the national secretary of
the National Women's Appeal, did she not?
Miss Bailynson. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now the original article taken from
the Communist Daily Worker of May 1953 (May 12, p. 6) in which
there appeared a letter from Miriam Doyle, executive secretary of the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6301
National Women's Appeal and see if that refreshes your recollection
with reference to your successor.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 147," see appendix, pp. 7362,
7363.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds previously stated.
Mr. Aeens. Have you been identified with the Civil Rights Con-
gi-ess ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to the Communist Daily Worker
of October 1948 (October 27, p. 7) in which one Belle Bailynson is
scheduled to address the election canvassers on a program called
"Help Put Out Our Reichstag Fire" in which William L. Patterson
("National Executive Secretary, Civil Rights Congress") is to par-
ticipate, and in which John Gates, one of the 12 indicted Communist
Party leaders, is to participate, and in which one Belle Bailynson
("United Electrical Workers Union Org.") is listed as a speaker and
I ask you if that was a correct designation of yourself as an affiliate
of that group.
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the United Electrical Workers?
Miss Bailynson. Not any longer.
Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with them ?
Miss Bailynson. Yes, I have.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?
Miss Bailynson. I was a member of the union.
Mr. Arens. Did you hold any office or post ?
Miss Bailynson. I was the organizer of activities of the local I
belonged to.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat local was that?
Miss Bailyson, It was local 430 in the UE. It isn't any longer.
Mr. Arens. Wliere was that located ?
Miss Bailynson. In Manhattan.
Mr. Arens. What type of work were the workers engaged in in
that particular local ?
Miss Bailynson. Radio, television, and transformer parts and vari-
ous other things.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently affiliated with UE ?
Miss Bailynson. No, I am not.
Mr. Arens. Did you have to sign a non-Communist affidavit when
you were with UE ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that for the reasons given
previously.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, she be directed
to answer that question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Scribner. Wliat was the question ?
Mr. Arens. I asked if she signed the non-Communist affidavit.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Bailyson. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. In that affidavit what did you say ?
Miss Bailynson, I signed the affidavit which stated I was not a
member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Was it truthful ?
Miss Bailynson. I signed the affidavit.
6302 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Was it truthful?
Miss Bailynson. It was.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
signed that affidavit?
Miss Bailynson. I just answered that it was truthful affidavit.
Mr. Arens. When did you sign it ?
Miss Bailynson. I signed it on September 10, 1951.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party any time
during 1951 ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Sep-
tember 9, 1951 ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Sep-
tember 11 ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Did you resign from the Communist Party for 1 day
in order to be able to sign the non-Communist affidavit?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline when you
signed the non- Communist affidavit?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Did the witness testify as to her membership in
the National Women's Appeal for the Eights of Foreign Born Ameri-
cans?
Mr. Arens. She invoked the fifth amendment.
Miss Bailynson, Have you been identified with a trade union coun-
cil or conference for Negro rights under date of 1950?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the privilege of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a call to a
National Trade Union Conference (June 10 and 11, 1950) held for
Negro rights under the auspices, among others, of the Harlem Trade
Union Council, in which you are listed as one of the initiating spon-
sors, and ask you whether or not that is a correct and accurate and
truthful designation,
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 148a-d," see appendix, pp. 7364-
7367.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in the cause of peace in the course
of the last few years ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. You have been identified as a leader of the American
Women for Peace.
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a page of
the Communist Daily Worker of October 23, 1960 (p. 1), in which
you are identified with the Women for Peace and ask if that is a
truthful and accurate designation.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 149," see appendix, p. 7368.)
COMMl^-IST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6303
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer on the same grounds as pre-
viously stated,
Mr. Arens. In the course of the last few years have you been doing
a good deal of speaking around on behalf of various groups and or-
ganizations in New York City?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same ground pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you activities director of local 430 of UE?
Miss Bailynson. I was.
Mr. Arens. And, as activities director of local 430 of UE, did you
address certain groups in defense of the Communists who were being
tried at Foley Square in New York ?
Miss Bailynson. Anything I did as activities director of local 430
of UE I did with the knowledge of the executive board and the ap-
2)roval of the membership, which was generally done as a result of dis-
cussion with the membership.
Mr. Arens. That doesn't answer the question. Please tell the com-
mittee whether or not, as activities director of UE Local 430 in New
York, you did make speeches before rallies in New York City on be-
half of the 12 Communists who were being tried or were tried in New
York City.
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer- that on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have j'ou ever been registered under the Lobbying Act?
Miss Bailynson. No; I have not.
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. We still have one more.
Mona Schneider, please.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? Do you swear
the testimony you are about to give this committee will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Jones. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MONA SCHNEIDER JONES, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Jones. My name is Mona Schneider Jones. I live at 622 West
114th Street, New York City. I am a recreation therapist.
Mr. Arens. "Wliere are you employed ?
Mrs. Jones. In New York City.
Mr. Arens. "VVliere is the recreational organization which employs
you, the name of the place, please ?
Mrs. Jones. It is a hospital at 68th Street and New York Avenue.
Mr. i^RENS. Are you secretaiy of the Sons and Daughters of the
Foreign Born?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^Irs. Jones. No; I am not.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been secretary of the Sons and Daughters
of the Foreign Born ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^304 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Jones. I will have to decline to answer that question because
I believe it violates the spirit and letter of the first amendment to
the Constitution, and I also have to decline to answer that question
under the protection, historical and moral protection, afforded me
under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Was this organization a Communist organization ?
Mrs, Jones. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
basis stated previously.
Mr. Arens. Is that organization still in existence ?
Mrs. Jones. No, it is not.
Mr. Arens. When did it cease to be in existence ?
Mrs. Jones. It has been out of existence for more than 2 years,
approximately 2 years or more, even.
Mr. Arens. And how long was it in existence when it did exist?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. About 2 years, approximately.
Mr. Arens. Where was it headquartered ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. Would you repeat that, please ?
Mr. Arens. Where was it headquartered.
Mrs. Jones. It was an informal group, but if you can speak of
headquarters, it met at the offices of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Was it an affiliate of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I will have to decline to answer that question on the
basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. How do you know it met at the headquarters of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest she said it met at the headquar-
ters of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
She volunteered that information. I think she should be required
to answer the question as to how she knew it met at the headquarters
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Who were the officers of the Sons and Daughters of
the Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis before mentioned.
Mr. Arens. How many members were there in the Sons and
Daughters of the Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Was any member of your family ever up for
deportation ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis mentioned previously.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jones
The Chairman. Just a moment.
I direct you to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer the question on the same basis
mentioned previously.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6305
Mr. Arens. Are you related to any witness who has testified here
today ?
(The witness conferred with her counseh)
Mrs. Jones. Yes, I am.
Mr. Abens. And to whom are you related ?
Mrs. Jones. Mr. Jones.
Mr. Arens. That is Alec Jones?
Mrs. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Arens. You are his daughter ?
Mrs. Jones. No, I am liis wife.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mrs. Jones. I should think you would, if a lady may have that
prerogative.
Mr. Arens. How come you used the name Schneider and he uses
Mrs. Jones. That is my maiden name. You asked me to identify
myself and I did as Mona Schneider Jones.
Mr. Arens. I see.
I lay before you, Mrs. Jones, a photostatic copy of the Lamp, which
is the official publication of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born (October-November-December 1952 issue) in which
there is an article describing a new youth organization, the Sons and
Daughters of the Foreign Born in the Fight Against Deportation,
and among others is listed Mona Schneider as secretary of the group
and Evelyn Barnett as treasurer.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 150," see appendix, p. 7360.)
I ask you if that is a correct and accurate designation of youi*self^
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of still another
document — "We are the Sons and Daughters of the Foreign Born.
Help us fight for our future. Write the Attorney General and others,"
the Statue of Liberty, a quotation of Emma Lazarus, and other appeal-
ing phrases — all issued soliciting response by the recipient.
1 ask you if you participated in the formulation of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 151a-c," see appendix, pp. 7370-
7372.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a reproduction of a letter of
the Sons and Daughters of the Foreign Born in the Fight Against
Deportation, with the name of Mona Schneider, as secretary, calling
upon the friends who are the recipients to do all they can to obtain
information against the Smith and Walter-McCarran Acts and to
mobilize large sections of young people for their repeal and to work
with certain groups to stop the hysteria deportation attacks under the
Walter-McCarran Act. I ask you if that is a document which you
prepared.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 152," see appendix, p. 7373.)
Mrs. Jones. I will have to decline on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to still another document,
a photostatic copy of the Communist Daily Worker for December 11,
1952 (pp. 3 and 6), with reference to a meeting at which you Sjjoke
at Webster Hall. It was a meeting called to cliallenge the Walter-
McCarran Act. I ask you if you have a recollection of making that,
address.
6306 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 153," see appendix, pp. 7373,
7374.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1951 did you accompany a group from New York
City that visited the capital to fight the Walter-McCarran Act and
to fight deportations under the International Security Act ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1953 did you take another little trip down to Wash-
ington as a member of the children of McCarran law victims ?
Mrs. Jones. Would you read that over again ?
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now the original article from the Com-
munist Daily Worker of March 26, 1953, page 3, in which are listed
the leaders of a group who came to Washington to protest the threat-
ening nature of the Walter-McCarran Act, how it is breaking up
families and all of the infamous things which it, according to this
article, was doing, and I ask you if that prompts your recollection.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 154," see appendix, pp. 7374,
7375.)
Mrs. Jones. No. I shall have to decline to answer that question
for the same reasons and on the same basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told the truth with respect
to your activities legislative-wise you would be supplying information
which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Jones. Possibly could.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mrs. Jones. No, I have not.
Mr. Arens. Has your organization registered under the Lobbying
Act?
Mrs. Jones. No, it has not.
Mr. Arens. In 1952 did you attend a conference in Detroit?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Were you in Detroit at all in 1952?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I may have been. I do not remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of a conference in Detroit
to defend the rights of foreign born Americans in which you partici-
pated on a youth panel ?
Mrs. Jones. I am afraid I shall have to decline to answer that ques-
tion for the same reason and on the same basis stated before.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
Mrs. Jones. I shall have to decline to answer that question for the
same reasons and on the same basis as stated before.
The Chairman. Do you decline ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes, I do decline on the same basis and for the same
I'easons.
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. The committee is now adjourned to meet tomor-
row at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5 p. m. the committee was recessed, to reconvene
at 10 a. m. Wednesday, November 14, 1956.)
C0M31UNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBEK, 14, 1956
United States House of Eepresentatives,
subcommiitee of the
Committee on Un-American AcTi\TriES,
Washington^ D. G.
PUBLIC HExiRING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the Caucus Room, Old House Office
Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter, chairman, presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of
Pennsylvania, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Stati' members present: Richard Arsns, director and Donald T.
Appell, investigator.
The Chairman. The coumiittee will be in order.
Call your first witness, please, ]\Ir. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Will Mr. Rotenberg please come forward.
Mr. A. Harry Levitan. Whom did you call? Mr. Sol Rotenberg?
I saw him in the corridor. JMay I call him, please ?
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mr. Levitan. I am Mr. Levitan, his attorney. I saw him a moment
ago and spoke to him. I ask that you pass him for a moment, sir. I
am sure he is here.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Levitan. Where would you prefer to have the witness?
The Chairman. Raise your right hand, sir.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rotenberg. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SOL ROTENBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
A. HARRY LEVITAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- .
pation.
Mr. Rotenberg. My name is Sol Rotenberg. I live at 29 East Tul-
pehocken Street, Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation, please ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I am an insurance agent.
Mr. Arens. For what company?
Mr. Rotenberg. Oh, I write for a number of companies.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rotenberg, you are appearing today in respond.- to
a subpena w^hich w^as served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
G307
6308 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. KoTENBERG. I received a subpena, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. KoTENBERG. I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself.
Mr. Levitan. I am A. Harry Levitan, L-e-v-i-t-a-n, with offices at
1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Kotenberg, please tell us where and when you were
born.
Mr. Kotenberg. I was born in Philadelphia, October 9, 1911.^
Mr. Arens. And give us, if you would, please, sir, a brief resume
of your education.
Mr. Kotenberg. I went to the Philadelphia public schools, grammar
school, and high school.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete your education at high school ?
Mr. Kotenberg. 1929.
Mr. Arens. Now give us, if you please, just a thumbnail sketch
of the principal employments which you have had since you termi-
nated your formal education.
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Kotenberg. Since I graduated high school in 1929, I have
worked at many jobs in the last 27 years.
Mr. Arens. Just give us the principal employments you have had.
Mr. Kotenberg. I believe this is a matter which does not neces-
sarily require an answer from me because of the fact that I don't
believe it has anything to do with my appearance here, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. What is your reason for not answering the
question ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Kotenberg. I would say, sir, that I would respectfully decline
to answer that question on the grounds of the constitutional
amendments.
The Chairman. On which one are you relying ?
Mr. Kotenberg. On the first and fifth, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, you take the position that if you
would answer the question as to any of your employments you might be
prosecuted criminally ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel).
Mr. Kotenberg. I have already given my reason, sir.
The Chairman. All right. I direct that you answer the question.
Mr. Le\t[tan. Will you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Arens. The question was simply a request that the witness
kindly tell the committee the principal employments he has had since
completing his formal education.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Kotenberg. I would say, sir, that I would rest on my previous
answer.
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment. Xow I ask, Mr. Chairman, that the
witness be directed to answer your question ; namely, whether or not
he feels that to answer as to his employment might tend to lead to a
criminal prosecution.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6309
The Chairman. Yes. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that an answer to the question
as to my previous employment I believe involves an intrusion upon
the freedom of association which is guaranteed in the first amendment
to the Constitution.
The Chairman. We are not asking you about your associations.
Mr. Levitan. May he continue his answer, please ? And ?
Mr. Eotenberg. And, secondly, I would also invoke the guaranty
of the fifth amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits the
elicitation of testimony from someone where it might possibly lead
to some criminal prosecution.
The Chairman. In other words, you are fearful that if you
answered the question as to your employment since you left school
up to the present time, you might be prosecuted criminally?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenrerg. I have already answered that question.
The Chairman. What is your answer, "Yes" or "No" ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I have answered it previously.
The Chairman. Answer it again.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, to summarize my previous answer,
that I rely on the first amendment, with respect to the freedom of
association, and the fifth amendment, with respect to the possibility
of any testimony being given that might possibly lead to some criminal
prosecution.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present
occupation ?
Mr. Rotenberg. About 2 years, sir.
Mr. Arens. And what was your employment immediately prior to
your present occupation ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would decline to answer that question for the
reasons previously given.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of a
nominating petition for the Communist Party, in which appear a
number of signatures, including the signatures of one Sol Rotenberg.
Kindly look at the document and tell us whether or not that is your
signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 155," see appendix, p. 7376.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I would decline to answer that question, sir, on
the grounds of the first and fifth amendments, which f^uarantee the
rights of freedom of association and the refusal to give testimony
which might lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rotenberg, eacli witness before this committee is
allowed certain expense money and allowed a per diem. In order
to receive that, it is necessary that he sign a voucher. We have a
voucher prepared here for you, and I request that you now at this
time opposite the word "payee" affix your signature.
(The witness conferred wi(h liis counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I decline for the reasons already given.
Mr. Arens. Do you decline to sign the pay voucher pursuant to
which you would oe receiving the per diem and your expenses for
your appearance before the committee today ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 12
6310 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX
Mr. RoTENBERG. At tliis time, I would decline to sign the voucher
for the same reasons already given. I understand from the rules of
the committee and the booklet which was handed to me by the Federal
marshal that the payment of the per diem and the expense voucher
is to be done, after testimony has been completed, in the office of the
clerk of the committee.
The Chairman. The marshal told you that?
]Mr. RoTENBERG. No; it is printed in the rules, sir, of the procedure
of the committee. I happened to glance through those rules and
noticed that this was the procedure.
The Chairman. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, if you please, sir, a photostatic
copy of a portion of the catalog of the Philadelphia School of Social
Science and Art for the fall of 1944, and ask you kindly to look at
that catalog, particularly that portion which sets forth a lecture to be
given on the Problems and Perspectives of the Jewish People by
one Sol Rotenberg, and tell us whether or not you are the Sol Roten-
berg alluded to in that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 156," see appendix, p. 7377.)
(The witness conferred with his comisel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I will decline to answer that question, sir, for the
reasons previously given on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. May I see the document ?
Mr. Arens. Shall I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Yes. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Rotenberg, I lay before you a photostatic
copy of an annuoncement of a celebration on the occasion of the
fourth anniversary of the American Youth for Democracy, a ban-
quet held at the Benjamin Franklin Hotel on November 18, 1947, and
ask you if you will kindly look at that and tell this committee whether
or not you are the Sol Rotenberg listed here as one of the sponsors of
that occasion.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 157a-c," see appendix, pp. 7378-
7380.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. Do you mean, sir, on the second page where there
is a list of names, Marc Chagall and Reverend Cunningham and
Reverend Logan et cetera, in this list '^
There are several pages liere.
Mr. Arens. Excuse me. Counsel.
I am alluding to the second page of the document where there
appears under the title "Sponsors," the name of Sol Rotenberg, and
I ask you if you are he.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, on the basis of the first amend-
ment, which protects the right of freedom of association and the fifth
amendment, which prevents the necessity of giving testimony which
may lead to a criminal prosecution, I would decline to answer the
question.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, if you please, sir, to a document
which is a call to a Bill of Rights conference to be held in New York
City in July 1949 — July 16-17 — in which a number of persons are
listed as sponsors, including a person identified here as Sol Rotenberg,
co:mmunist political subversion 6311
of Philadelphia, Pa. Kindly look at that and tell us whether or not you
were a sponsor of that conference.
^See exhibit 62d, appendix, p. 7204.)
(The witness conferred with his coimsel.)
Mr. RoiTEMBERG. I presumc, sir, yon refer to page 5 of this document.
Mr. Arens. I refer to that page on which your name appears.
Mr. Ro'i'ENBEKG. This is a page which is headed by Dr. Rabe.
Mr, Aeens. Is that the one w^hich has Sol Rotenberg's name on it?
Mr. RoTENBERG. O. Johu Rogge and other names on it.
Mr. Arens. Is that the one which has Sol Rotenberg's name on it?
Mr. Rot]!:nberg. Yes ; that is page 5.
;Mr. Arens. Kindly answer tlie question, if you please, sir.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that this call to a Bill of Rights
conference would certainly seem to indicate that people were con-
cerned about the Bill of Rights, but I would decline on the basis of
the first amendment and the freedom of association and the fifth
amendment with respect to answering your question.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend that conference?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would answer the same answer for the same
reason.
Mr. Arens. At that particular conference there was an attack
against the Federal Bureau of Investigation ; was there not ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would decline to answer, sir, for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. At that conference there was also a resolution voted
down unanimously, which resolution would have restored civil lib-
erties for members of the Socialist Workers Party, the so-called
Trotskj'ite organization ; was there not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I could only give you the same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the conference?
iVIi\ Rotenberg. I w^ould give you the same answer for the same
reason, that the first amendment protects the freedom of association
and the fifth amendment protects the right of individuals to be free
in testimony from contributing to any possibility of a criminal
prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in December of 1951 in a conference
called in behalf of victims of Smith Act repression? Do you have
a recollection of such a conference held in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must decline to answer that question, sir, since
this question also deals with the right of association and also for the
fifth amendment with respect to the freedom to protect one's self
against the possibility of a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
on page 8 of the Communist Daily Worker of December 21, 1951,
entitled "Babtist [sic] Cleric Urges Prayer for Victims of the Smith
Act," with reference to a rally and a conference which was held in
Philadelpliia in December of 1951 in which a number of people partici-
pated, including one Sol Rotenberg, identified as executive director
of the Jewish People's Fraternal Order. Kindly look at that and
tell us whether or not you are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 158," see ap])ondix, p. 7381.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I believe this question, sir, also goes to the heart
'Of the matter with respect to freedom of association, and I will de-
6312 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
cline to answer the question on that ground and also on the ground
that a witness should not be compelled to give any testimony which
might lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Akens. Were you executive director of the Jewish People's Fra-
ternal Order in December of 1951 ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I will give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Herman Thomas ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I will give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Herman Thomas identified you under oath as a
person known by him to have been a member of the Communist con-
spiracy. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I think I am compelled, sir, to give you the same
answer for the same reasons.
The Chairman. You are not under any compulsion at all. You are
not compelled.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I feel, sir, that I am compelled to give that answer
because, sir
The Chairman. Do you give that answer ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I do ^ive that answer.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I am compelled to give tliat answer b}^ my own
conscience, as well as by my desire to see that the rights guaranteed
by the Constitution are not trampled upon by anybody.
(The witness conferred w^ith his counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Do vou honestlv fear that if vou told this committee
whether or not Herman Thomas was telling the truth when he took
an oath and told the committee that he knew you as a member of the
Communist conspiracy, you would be supplying information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reasons I have already indicated.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness to
answer Mr. Arens' question either yes or no.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Rotenberg. I have refused to answer this question, sir, because
of the first amendment, which guarantees the right of freedom of
association, and the fifth amendment, Avhich prevents the elicitation
of testimony
The Chairman. We are not talking about associations with any-
body. We are not talking about associations. We are talking about
the testimony that was adduced before this committee some time ago.
Mr. Levitan. Would you be good enough to continue with your
answer, Mr. Rotenberg ?
The Chairman. You go ahead and ask a question, Mr. Arens. He
has answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rotenberg, I lay before you now a photostatic-
copy of a document (a release dated Wednesday, December 14, 1949)^
which is a statement
COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6313
Mr. Levitan. Excuse me. One moment, please.
The Chairmax. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Of the Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the
Atlantic Pact, and in this particular document
Mr. Levitan, Mr. Rotenberg; did not answer tlie question.
Mr. Arens. In this particular document, we find the name of Roten-
berg, who signed a petition under the auspices of the Committee for
Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact. Kindly look at that docu-
ment, sir, and tell us whether or not that is your name.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 159a-d," see appendix, pp. 7382-
7385.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Eotenberg. First I want to make it very clear that in respect
to the previous question I did not complete my answer to it.
The Chairman. You refused to answer the question on the grounds
that the answer might incriminate you, because of the first amendment.
Mr. RoTENBERG. First and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. "VVliat more did you wish to add ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I was interrupted, sir. You had started to speak,
and I stopped and listened to what you were saying. I hadn't com-
pleted the answer. I wanted to say that the reason I had refused to
answer the question, after being directed to do so, was because, firstly,
the freedom of association was endangered, which is guaranteed in the
first amendment to the Constitution, and that the fifth amendment
guarantees protection to those who wish to prevent any testimony
being given by themselves which might possibly be used.
The Chairman. That is the answer you gave before. Proceed.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I just Wanted to be sure it was on the record.-
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell this committee whether or not you are the
Sol Rotenberg who signed this statement under the ouspices of the
Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact. I direct
vour attention to page 16 of this document in which appears "Sol
iRotenberg, executive director, Philadelphia council, Jewish Peoples
Fraternal Order." Kmdly look at that and tell this committee
wliether or not you are he.
Mr. Rotenberg. Sir, you mean this document which proposed
sending a statement to President Truman urging that agreement
whereby the atomic bomb should not be used as an instrument of
international warfare as the first step in the program of general
disarmament ?
Mr. Arens. Under the auspices of the Committee for Peaceful Al-
ternatives to the Atlantic Pact, yes, sir.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, there are a lot of names
Mr. Arens. Just please answer the question. Are you the Sol
Rotenberg who was alluded to in that document?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, that the first amendment, which
guarantees the freedom of association, and the fifth amendment, which
guarantees the privilege of not giving testimony which might lead
to a criminal prosecution, would induce me, sir, to refuse to answer the
question.
Mr. Arens. Now tell this committee, if you please, sir, what is, or
what was, the Philadelphia Council on Equal Job Opportunities. Do
Tou have a recollection of that organization ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
6314 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that this goes to the heart of the
question of freedom of association, and I would refuse to answer the
question on that ground and also on the ground of the fifth amendment.
Mt. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question, and I state for the
record at this time that there is no scintilla of evidence that this par-
ticular organization, the Philadelphia Council on Equal Job Oppor-
tunities, is, or has been, dominated or penetrated in any way by the
Communist conspiracy.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that this c|uestion, like some of the
other questions, goes to the heart of the freedom of association, and I
would decline to answer this question on the ground of the first
amendment, which protects this right, as well as the fifth amendment,
which gives a witness the privilege of refusing to answer a question
which may lead in some way to a criminal prosecution.
The Chairman. Do you know Mrs. Jule T. Bouchard?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I dou't remember having heard that name before,
sir.
The Chairman. Her name appears as the person to contact with
respect to this Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic
Pact. You say you have never heard of her ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I dou't remember, sir, ever having heard that name.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever associate with the Philadelphia Council
on Equal Job Opportunities ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would have to give the same answer as before
with respect to that organization.
Mr. Arens. Do you know the Philadelphia Jewish Community
Relations Council ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I think, sir, this question continues to go to the
matter of freedom of association which is guaranteed and protected
under the first amendment and the fifth amendment, which guarantees
the right to refuse to answer a question which may lead to a criminal
prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever associate with the Philadelphia Jewish
Community Relations Council ?
Mr. Rotenberg. The same answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. And I say for the record, Mr. Chairman, we have no
scintilla of evidence that the Philadelphia Jewish Community Rela-
tions Council has been penetrated, or controlled in anyway, by the
Communist conspiracy. These questions were the background for
asking this next principal question.
In January of 1950, did you write a letter to the editor of the Jewish
Times, in which you attacked the Philadelphia Council on Equal Job
Opportunities and the Philadelphia Jewish Community Relations
Council?
Mr. LE^^TAN. Do you have that letter ?
Mr. Arens. I am addressing the question to the witness, Counsel.
Did you write such a letter ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6315
Mr. RoTENBEKG. I caniiot remember such a letter.
Mr. Arexs. All right, sir, I lay before you now a photostatic copy
of a document which is a reproduction from Jewish Life — April, 1950,
issue — in which their appears a letter (dated January 31, 1950) w^hich
had been addressed to Jewish Life, signed by Sol Rotenberg, in
■which these two organizations are attacked by yourself. Kindly
look at this document and tell this committee whether or not you sent
that letter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. IGOa, b," see appendix, pp. 738G,
7387.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I refusc to answer, sir, for the same reasons al-
ready given previously.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to a document which is a
photostatic reproduction of an article on page 4 of the Communist
Daily Worker of June 10, 1949, relating to a street demonstration in
support of the 12 Communist leaders then on trial in New York City.
According to this article, at this street demonstration one of the leaders
and participants w\as Sol Eotenberg, identified as executive secretary
of the Jewish People's Fraternal Order. Kindly look at that docu-
ment and tell us w^hether or not you are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 161," see appendix, p. 7388.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I would give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reason.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photograph taken in Philadel-
phia of a number of pickets attacking the Committee on Un-American
Activities, Un-Americans, Go Home. Don't Defile the Liberty Bell.
I should like to ask you to look at that photogi-aph and tell us if that
is your picture right there about the middle or to the right of the
photograph ; is that your photograph ?
f Document marked "Exhibit No. 162," see appendix, p. 7389.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ro'fenberg. I would say, sir, that I would refuse to answer that
question based on the right under the first amendment of freedom of
association and on the fifth amendment with respect to the possibility
of a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. You were picket line captain of that picket of this com-
mittee when it was holding sessions in Philadelphia in 1952 ; is that
not true?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would decline to answer that question, sir, for the
same reason.
The Chairman. I want to see what is so funny about that photo-
graph.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now still another photograph and ask
you if that is a true and correct photograph of yourself directing the
operations of the picket line in Philadelphia.
(Document marked "P^xhibit No. 163," see appendix, p. 7390.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.
Mr. Rotenberg. I will decline to answer that question, sir, for the
reasons alreadj^ given. I feel that these questions lead directly to the
freedom of association and the attempt, sir, to evolve some scheme or
method which might lead to some criminal prosecution.
6316 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you still another photograph which
shows you in the midst of the pickets, a little bit different pose.
Kindl}' identify that photograph for the committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 164," see appendix, p. 7391.)
Mr. EoTENBERG. I would say, sir, I would give you the same answer
for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another photograph taken in the
hearing room in Philadelphia during the hearings of this committee
and I ask you kindly to identify that photograph of yourself and to
tell this committee wnth whom you are conversing.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 165,'' see appendix, p. 7392.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. EoTENBERG. I will say, sir, this goes again to the heart of the
question of the freedom of association, and I would exercise my priv-
ilege under the first and the fifth amendments in refusing to answer
the question.
Mr. Arens. In February of 1953, did you set up a conference in
Philadelphia for the purpose of creating sentiment for the repeal of
the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, first of all that — you say February
1953?
Mr. Arens. February 1953 ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, that I am flatly opposed to the
Walter-McCarran law, as should be obvious to the chairman and to
the membei's of this committee, and have always been opposed to the
Walter-McCarran law for the type of law it is and the damage which
it does to American rights and for the hardships which it brings to
many innocent people.
The Chairman. What damage does it do to innocent people ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Well, sir, I have read of many cases of people who
have been adversely affected by the operation of the Walter-McCar-
ran law with respect to their abilities to get and hold jobs, with respect
to unlawful deportation orders being obtained against them, with
respect to their being arrested and molested on the basis of the Walter-
McCarran law by agents of the Immigration Service and other de-
j)artments of the Government, which certainly does not flow from
the protection of individual rights as guaranteed in our Constitution.
The Chairman. Just name me one individual who has been unjustly
prosecuted under the Walter-McCarran Act. They can be deported.
^Vliat you are saying is that you are opposed to the deportation of
Communists. Isn't that what you are saying ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. What was your question, sir ?
The Chairman. Aren't you paying any attention ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I was waiting, sir, for you to finish.
Th.e Chairman. I am asking you to name one single case where an
innocent person has been prosecuted unjustly, as you put it.
Mr. Rotenberg. Well, sir, there is such a case w^hich I would like to
call to your attention.
The Chairman. Give it to us.
Mr. Rotenberg. Since it was a case which took place in Philadel-
phia this past year.
The Chairman. First, what is the name?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 63 IT
Mr. RoTENBERG. The name of the woman was Stella Petrosky.
The Chairman. How do you spell that name?
Mr. RoTENBERG. P-e-t-r-o-s-k-j.^
Mr. ScHERER. Was she a Communist?
Mr. RoTENBERG. She was the mother of 8 children and 19 grand-
children, all citizens here. She was arrested on deportation charges,
had a hearing, was ordered deported, The hearing was upheld by
the Board of Immigration Appeals. One of our Federal judges in
Philadelphia, Judge Van Dusen, after hearing arguments on this
particular case, handed down his ruling just a few short weeks ago,
sir, that the deportation order was unlawful. Those are his words.
And the action of the deportation hearing officer, as well as the action
of the Board of Immigration Appeals in refusing to overturn the de-
portation order, were "unlawful."
The Chairman. That is right. Now let me show you where you
are wrong. Under the law, they have the administrative procedure
that 3'^ou have talked about, and failing in that, they have the writ
of habeas corpus and appeal to the circuit court of appeals and appeal
to the Supreme Court of the United States. So actually this woman
was not deported because of the provisions of the very law that you
are now criticizing-
Mr. Arens. In view of your interest in the McCarran-Walter Act
and the position which you have announced on the act, please tell
this committee whether or not you set up a conference in Philadelphia
in February 1953 for the purpose of engendering sentiment for the
repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I think, sir, the right of freedom of association,
the right to petition the government to make changes in laws, is guar-
anteed by our Constitution, and I decline to answer that question,
and also invoke the protection of the first and fifth amendments with
respect to my answer.
The Chairman. In view of the fact that it is entirely within the
Constitution to organize a group to protest to the Congress, to peti-
tion the Congress, to quote the Constitution, what criminal action do
you feel could be instituted against you for acting within your con-
stitutional rights ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer, sir, for the same reasons
previously given.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, at this point I should like to cause to be
inserted in this record a letter Avhicli I have received from the resident
manager of the Hotel Sylvania, Fred Leliman, dated November 6,
1956, the body of which reads as follows :
Relative to your letter requesting identity of organization who rented our
ballroom for conference on February 8, 1953, we are pleased to advice (sic)
that it was booked by: Mr. Sol Rotenberg, Jewish People's Fraternal Order,
Room 803, Bankers Security Building, Juniper and Walnut Streets, Philadel-
phia 7, Pa.
Signed by the manager of the hotel.
Mr. Rotenberg, at that particular conference in February of 1953
were certain resolutions passed ?
Mr. Rotenberg- I must decline to answer, sir, because I believe
that you are intruding on tlie freedom of association, and I would
also invoke the protection of the fifth amendment with respect to
^ Correct spelling of this name is Petrofsky.
6318 CORIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
the elicitation of any testimony which might lead possibly to a
criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention now to a document which is
titled "Proposed Program of Action, Conference to Repeal Walter-
McCarran Immigration Law — Sunday February 8, 1953," in which
the conferees are urged to take various types of action, inclndiiifr
the organization of delegations to visit Congressmen to obtain com-
mitments from them to support the conference resolutions; also to
obtain signatures on petitions ; to get thousands of post cards sent to
Congressmen ; to organize delegations to go to Washington : to develop
neighborhood campaigns; to set up various types of meetings. I lay
that document before you now and ask you if that is a true and correct
representation of the proceedings of the conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 166," see appendix, p. 7393.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I See that this program of action makes reference
to a repeal bill introduced by Congressman William A. Barrett, of
Philadelphia, H.R. 220.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Just tell us whether or not that is a true and
correct representation of the proceedings which took place at this
conference set up by yourself.
Mr. Rotenberg. I must decline to answer the question, sir, on the
basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Now, who is Harry Levitan ?
Mr. Levitan. I am Harry Levitan.
Mr. Arens. I am asking the witness.
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. RoTENBERG. Harry Levitan is my attorney, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you set up a testimonial affair in honor of Attorney
Harry Levitan in October 1955 at the Broadwood Hotel ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I must respectfully decline, sir, to answer that
question on the grounds of the right of freed,om of association
Mr. ScHERER. It might incriminate you ?
Mr. Rotenberg. And, secondly, sir, because someone might try to
elicit testimony or use such testimony in some criminal prosecution.
The Chairman. Just a moment. What crime do you think you
might be charged with for setting up a testimonial dinner for your
lawyer or anyone else ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I am not a legal student, sir. I must give you
the same answer for the same reason.
The Chairman. In other words, you decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Yes; I do.
The Chairman. All right. Who is Dwight F. Purman?
Mr. Rotenberg. Who?
The Chairman. Dwight F. Purman.
Mr. Rotenberg. How do you spell that last name?
The Chairman. P-u-r-m-a-n.
Mr, Rotenberg. I never heard the name, sir.
The Chairman. He is the president of the central Pennsylvania
Synod of the LTnited Lutheran Church. Do you know him?
Mr. Rotenberg. I never heard of him, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Dr. Stanley R. Parnall, of the
Germantown Friends School ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6319
Mr. RoTENBERG. I may have heard of the name, sir, but I must
decline to answer questions with respect to names of people, because
I believe that they are in infringement on the ri^ht of association.
The Chairihan. You think you might be subjected to a criminal
prosecution if you admit you know the principal of the Quaker School
m Philadelphia?
Mr. RoTENBERG. In the context of this hearing, sir ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Henry Scattergood, of Villanova?
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't remember, sir, whether I know him or not.
The Chairivian. Do you know Mitchell Schaffer ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. The name is not familiar to me.
The Chairman. Do you know Rev. B. L. Scott, of the Lower Merlon
Baptist Church, at Bryn Mawr ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I may have read the name in some newspaper. The
name is not too familiar to me, sir.
The Chairman. Referring ba^k to this petition you signed under
the auspices of the Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the At-
lantic Pact, I am just picking out other people from Pennsylvania
who also signed this petition. I thought perhaps you would know
some of the other signers.
Mr. RoTENBERG. lu a lifetime one meets a lot of people, sir.
The Chairman. Yes, that is true — of all sorts.
Mr. RoTENBERG. That is true, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Dr. Thomas Woody, of the University
of Pennsylvania.
Mr. RoTENBERG. It is just a name, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Mrs. Anna Yarnall ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Just a name ; a Philadelphia citizen.
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. In this conference which you set up for your attorney,
did you procure the room or the reservation at the Broadwood Hotel
on behalf of the Philadelphia Life Insurance Co.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Le\t:tan. Wliich affair was that, sir ?
Mr. Arens. The affair that he set up for you, the testimonal affair
on October of 1955 at the Broadwood Hotel.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer the question, sir, for the
same reason as already given.
Mr. Arens. You did make arrangements at the hotel for this testi-
monial to Mr. Levitan, but you made them in the name of the Phila-
delphia Life Insurance Co., did you not?
Mr. Levitan. Philadelphia Life Insurance had nothing to do with
it.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer your question, sir, for the
same reasons.
The Chairman. Have you ever been employed by the Philadelphia
Life Insurance Co. ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I am an agent, sir, of many companies, and that is
one of the companies.
Mr. Arens. Did your company, the Philadelphia Life Insurance
Co., know that you made a reservation for this meeting at the hotel
using the name of the Philadelphia Life Insurance Co. so you could
get the hotel reservations ?
6320 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. For a Communist meeting.
Mr. Levitan. That was not a Communist meeting, sir.
The Chairman. You will have an opportunity to testify yourself.
Mr. Levitan. Yes, I hope so.
Mr. Scherer. How many Communists attended that meeting?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must refuse, sir, to answer your question for the
same reason.
The Chairman. How many non-Communists ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must refuse for the same reason, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Witness, I read you, the first paragraph of
a letter which I received, dated November 8, 1956, from William Ad-
ler, of the Broadwood Hotel in Philadelphia addressed to myself.
On October 28, 1955. a testimonial affair in honor of Attorney A. Harry Levi-
tan was held at the Broadwood Hotel. The affair was contracted by Mr. Sol
Rotenberg representing the Philadelphia Life Insurance Co. at 115 North Broad
Street, Philadelphia.
Is that a true recitation of the facts ?
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 167a, b," see appendix, pp. 7394,
7395.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. The Philadelphia Life Insurance Co., sir, had
nothing whatever to do with the Broadwood Hotel so far as I know.
Mr. Arens. Then why did you use the name of the Philadelphia
Life Insurance Co. in making the reservations for this affair?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I must decline to answer your question, sir, for
the reasons previously given.
Mr. Arens. Was it because you didn't want the Philadelphia Life
Insurance Co. to know that you, a Communist, were setting up a
testimonial dinner for somebody?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. You are assuming, sir, from your question that I
am a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must, sir, remind you that the right of associa-
tion is protected by the first amendment to the Constitution and that
the fifth amendment also prevents the elicitation of testimony which
might possibly lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. In December of 1955, last year, just a little bit before
Christmas, about a year ago, there was a national conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom held in
Detroit, Michigan. Did you attend this conference?
Mr. Rotenberg. I guess it isn't safe for anyone to be against the
Walter-McCarran law these days. I must decline, sir, to answer these
quastions which have to do with the association which is guaranteed
in the first amendment and on the grounds of the fifth amendment
that these questions may lend to some testimony which could be a link
in some criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. You were chairman of the nominating committee up
there in Detroit last year of this conference called for the purpose of
creating sentiment to destroy the immigration laws ; isn't that correx^t ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Well, I think any conference that was called to
make some changes in immigration laws would be a worthwhile thing,
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6321
sir, but I must decline to answer your question with respect to my par-
ticipation in any such conference for the reasons already given.
Mr. Abens. Now I lay before you, if you please, sir, a document
which indicates the nature of the conference, the 2od Amiual Con-
ference of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
held in Detroit, Mich., which sets forth the purpose of the conference,
and we have an investigator's report on the meeting indicating that
3'ou were chairman of the nominating committee for the officers of the
conference. Will you tell this committee whether or not you were
in attendance at the conference in Detroit and whether or not you
were chairman of the nominating committee ?
(See exhibit VII, appendix, pp. 8406-8489.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. That was the committee to nominate the officers of the
American Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. Is that what it says in the investigator's report,
sir?
Mr. Arens. Would you deny while you are mider oath that you
were in attendance at that conference in Detroit and that you were
chairman of the nominating committee ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Would you care to show me the investigator's
report?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not
he was chairman of the nominating committee of the Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, held in December last year.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. RoTENBERG. Mr. Walter, I must respectfully decline to answer
that question because it goes to the heart of the question of freedom
of association and I would invoke the privilege of the fifth amend-
ment as well as the first, because of the possibility that my answers
might be used in some way and might result in a criminal prosecution.
This, sir, does not mean that I am in favor of the Walter-McCarran
law.
The Chairman. Just a minute. In that connection, you came to my
office one time
Mr. RoTENBERG. Ycs, I did, sir.
The Chairman. And I asked you to write me a letter in which you
would state specific points that were wrong with the law. I have
been waiting for 2 years to get the letter. Is it because you can't
tell what is wrong with it without admitting that the only thing you
are opposed to is the section that makes it easier to deport Com-
munists and more difficult for Communists to come into the United
States? That is your opposition to the law, isn't it?
Mr. RoTENBERG. No, it isn't, sir. I would be happy to go into
great detail with you with respect to the law.
The Chairman. No, I asked you a long while ago to write me a
letter, and you never have written the letter.
Mr. RoTENBERG. There have been hundreds of documents written
The Chairman. No, no.
Mr. RoTENBERG. With respect
The Chairman. No. At this conference in my office you brought
some well-meaning people who, I am sure, didn't know anything about
6322 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
you or your background or what you were or are. You brought these
people to my office. I told you to sit down and write me a letter
telling me what was wrong and I would submit it to the committee
whicli unanimously reported this bill. I haven't gotten this bill of
complaint as yet.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Now, your interest in legislation goes far beyond the
Walter- McCanan Act, does it not, Mr. Rotenberg ?
Mr. RoTENBEitG. Just a moment.
The Chairman. This is a question, and go ahead.
Mr. Levitan. Your question or Mr. Arens' question ?
♦Mr. Arens. Your interest in legislation is in regard to legislation
in addition to the Walter-McCarran Act, is it not?
Mr. Rotenberg. I am not sure as to what you mean, sir. I am inter-
ested in all kinds of legislation that is pending or is passed before our
Houses of Congress.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I have a citizen's interest in legislation, sir.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question, please ; are you registered under
the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Rotenberg. No.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the organization of a conference
at the Adelphia Hotel in 1954, a Peoples Conference Against Mc-
Carthyite Legislation, and for Civil Rights?
Mr. Rotenberg. I think, sir, tliis goes again to the question of f lee-
dom association, and I must decline to answer this question on the
basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. When you visited the distinguished chairman of this
committee, in his office, did you make known to him whether or not
you were a member of tlie Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Mr. Walter did not ask me anything at all about my
politics, sir.
The Chairman. I knew all about it before you came, of course.
Mr. Rotenberg. I also was familiar, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I have one question, at this point. Did you make
known to the people whom you brought to Congressman Walter's office,
the fact that you were a Communist and engaged in Communist Party
work?
Mr. Rotenberg. I, sir, have not told you whether I am a Communist
or I am not a Communist, and I engaged in the visit to Mr. Walter's
office with people for the specific purpose of discussing with Mr. Walter
some of the provisions of the Walter-McCarran law.
Mr. Scherer. You haven't answered my question. Did you or did
you not disclose to the people whom you brought to Congressman
Walter's office whether or not you were a Communist ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must, sir, use the privilege of the first amendment
which guarantees the freedom of association, and the fifth amendment
with respect to freedom from criminal prosecution in declining to
answer your question.
Mr. Scherer. Of course you didn't because I suppose 90 percent of
them wouldn't have come if they had known that you were a member
of the Communist Party and engaged in Communist Party work when
you brought them to Congressman Walter's office.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6323
Mr. RoTENBERG. That is your opinion, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Is my opinion wrong ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Your opinion, sir, is merely your opinion.
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking you
Mr. RoTENBERG. I have my own opinions with regard to the Walter-
McCarran Law, and I have so stated in my conference with Mr. Walter.
Mr. SciiERER. Now you answ^er my question. What I said just then,
is that wrong ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. That is merely your opinion, sir,
Mr. SciiERER. Is my opinion wrong ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Every man is entitled to his own opinion.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Was Alex Wright in attendance with you in that delega-
tion that came to see Mr. Walter in his office ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the
basis of the first amendment, which guarantees the freedom of asso-
ciation, and the fifth amendment, which protects a witness from giv-
ing any testimony which may lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Alex Wright was with you, and I put it to you as a fact
that he was, and he is and has been, a member of the Communist Party .„
If that is not true, you deny it while you are under oath.
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I regretfully must decline to answer your question,
sir, because it deals with this freedom of association which I think the
committee has no right to dig into. I use the fifth amendment, also,,
sir.
Mr. Arens. I think the record sliould be clear that Mr. Alex Wright,
although he was in attendance as a Communist in the session of this
legislative delegation, was an midercover agent for the Federal Bureau
of Investigation and has since been revealed as an undercover agent.
He was posing as a conspirator in the delegation that he attended
with you.
The Chairman. You did not know who came to call on me, did you ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Mr. Walter, I came to call on you to discuss the
Walter-lSIcCarran law\
The Chairman. You did not know that with this group was an agent
of the FBI?
Mr. RoTENBFXtG. Auyouc who is opposed to the Walter-McCarran
law, sir, has tlie privilege, the same as any other citizen, to come to
your office to discuss the matter.
The Chairman. If I see fit to see them, of course, but what I am
saying to you is that you did not know that in this delegation there was
a man w^ho was a member of the FBI.
Mr. Arens. How many Congressmen did you call on in the course
of this visitation to Washington ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I called on all of the Philadelphia Congressmen,
and the Senators from the State of Pennsylvania, sir.
Mr. Arens. How many people were in the delegation t
Mr. Rotenberg- I don't recall the exact number.
6324 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. What is your best estimate as to the number of people?
Were there as many as six ?
(Witness conferred witli his counsel. )
Mr. KoTENBERG. I believe, I am not sure of the number, I believe it
was 8 or 10, and I know that we all left our names with Mr. Walter's
secretary so I am sure that he has a list of the people who were there.
Mr. Arens. And you called on about half a dozen Congressmen ; is
that correct ?
Mr. KoTENBERG. I Said I did, sir. It was the six from Philadelphia
and Mr. Walter and the Pennsylvania Senators. I might say, sir, that
I found that many of the Congressmen I called upon were also opposed
to many features of the Walter-McCarran law.
The Chairman. \Vhat did any of them ever do about it ?
Mr. KoTENBERG. Well, Congressman Barrett introduced a bill for
repeal, and Congressman Hugh Scott, who is my Congressman, told
me that he had been trying to get some discussion in the Subcommittee
on Immigration of the House Judiciary Committee of which you are
the chairman, sir, and he said he had been unsuccessful in getting any
bills for repeal or revision out of your subcommittee.
Mr. Arens. Who paid the expenses of the delegation who came to
Washington ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I paid my own expenses, sir.
Mr. Arens. "Who designated you as spokesman for the group ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't recall anyone designating me as spokesman,
sir. I took the privilege upon myself to speak to tlie Congressman
because these things were on my mind.
Mr. Arens. Of the delegation, how many people in the delegation
were not members of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I have no information, sir, which could lead me
in any direction to give you an answer. I just don't know anytliing
about their politics, their associations, or their beliefs, and I believe
this t^'pe of questioning, sir, which is directed by the committee here,
would perhaps have a more beneficial effect if hearings were held in
the Judiciary Committee on the Walter-McCarran law itself.
Mr. Arens. Did you make representation to any of the Congress-
men whom you visited respecting the organization that you repre-
sented ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't recall, sir, but I would say this goes to the
freedom of association and I would decline to answer that question
on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you an original document with ref-
erence to a Peoples Conference against McCarthyite legislation and
for civil rights, in which a number of pieces of legislation are at-
tacked — the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, and the Immigra-
tion and Nationality Act. It is a conference set up for Saturday,
June 19, 1954, and I ask you whether or not you were one of the spon-
sors and arrangers for that conference ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 168 a-d," see appendix, pp. 7396-
7399.)
Mr. Rotenberg. There was a lot of confusion.
Mr. Arens. There was no confusion in the mind of Mr. Thomas
when he identified you as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't know what was in his mind.
Mr. Arens. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6325
Mr. RoTEXBERG. I must exercise the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments since I believe your question
The Chairmax. Do you know Mr. Thomas ?
Mr. EoTEXiiERG. I would love to answer your question, but I must
give you the same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
^Ir. Arexs. Now, just tell us whether or not you are one of the
organizers of this conference against the Internal Security Act, the
Smith Act, and the Walter-McCarran Act, and other anti-Communist
legislation on the books ^
Mr. RoTEXBERO. Well, this all says repeal of the McCarran-Walter
Immigration Act, and I am certainly in agreement with that.
I\Ir. Arexs. Tell us whether or not you organized that? We under-
stand you are in agreement on that.
]\Ir. RoTExiiERG. I must decline to answer your question, sir, because
it goes to the heart of the question of freedom of association which I
think is beyond the purview of your committee, and I would also
invoke the fifth amendment since such questions may lead in some way
to a criminal prosecution.
The Chairmax. What was that question? -Read the question back.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
The Chairmax. Now, there is no prohibition against citizens or-
ganizing in order to take action against legislation. What criminal
prosecution do you think could be instituted against you for organizing
a group whose purpose it was to endeavor to prevail upon the Con-
gress to alter, amend, or repeal certain legislation ?
Mr. RoTEX'BERG. Well, sir, I am not sure what criminal possibilities
might flow from this, and I would certainly hope to hold myself free
to come talk to you again about the Walter-McCarran law, should the
opportunity avail itself, and preferably at some committee hearing
which would be set u]) to hear testimony on bills to repeal and revise
the Walter-McCarran law.
The Chairmax. We are talking about this meeting that you organ-
ized in Detroit.
Mr. RoTEXBERG. I iiiust clecliue, sir, to answer your question because
it goes to the heart of the question of freedom of association, and I
must invoke the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairmax. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. RoTEXBERG. I liave already answered, sir, that on the basis of
the first and fifth amendments I cannot answer your question.
The Chairmax. Will you proceed ?
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the statf
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. SciiERER. Are you related to Don Rothenberg, of Cleveland ?
Mr. RoTEXBERG. Not to my knowledge, sir.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairmax. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Hugo Gellert, will you pknise come forwartl ^
The Chairmax. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so lielp
you God ?
Mr. Gellert. I do.
85333— 57— pt. 1 13
0326 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF HUGO GEILERT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arexs. Please identify youi-self, sir, by name, residence and
occupation.
Mr. Gellert. Hu^o Gellert, 223 23d Street, New York City.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly keep your voice up, Mr. Gellert, so
the committee can hear you clearly ?
i\Ir. Geu-iErt. I am an artist. I am sorry my throat isn't in such
good condition.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing; in response to a subpena served
upon 3'ou by the House Committee on Un-American Activities 'I
Mr. Gellert. Yes, sir.
Mv. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Gellert. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself '(
Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York
6, N. Y.
Mr. Arens. Have j'ou alwavs been known b}- the name of Hugo
Gellert?
Mr. Gellert. I was born under a diflPerent name.
Mr. Arens. Under what name were you born ?
Mr. Gellert. Hugo Greenbaum.
Mr. Arens. And where were you born ?
Mr. Gellert. Hungary.
Mr. Arens. In what city in Hungary ?
Mr. Gellert. Budapest.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Gellert, in 1927 did you take a trip abroad?
Mr. Gellebt. I did.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go ?
Mr. Gellert. I went to France and I went to Germany and I went to
the Soviet Union.
Mr. Arens. What Avas your purpose in going to the Soviet Union
in 1927?
Mr. Gellert. My purpose was to see what it was like.
Mr. Arens. Who paid your expenses ?
Mr. "Gellert. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. How much time did you spend in the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Gellert. I am not certain of time. It might have been a couple
of months, or maybe 6 weeks, I am not certain, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did vou attend any classes while you were in the Soviet
Union in 1927?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you do any studying there ?
Mr. Gellert. I did not study.
Mr. Arens. Then, did you take another trip in 1932 ?
INIr. Gellert. I beg your pardon, may I tell you what I did do while
I was there ?
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mr. Gellert. They were getting out a series of books on Theodore
Di-eiser and I made the jackets for them.
Mr. Arens. You were an artist at that time, as you are now?
Mr. Gellert. I have been so all of my life.
Mr. Arens. Did you make another trip in 1932 ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6327
INIr. Gellert. Yes, I made another trip in 1932.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go in 1932 ?
Mr. Gellert. In 1932 1 firet went to I^ningi'ad and then I went to
Moscow.
Mr. Arens. ^V\.\i\t was your purpose in 1932 in going to Leningrad
and to Moscow ?
Mr. Gellert. The same tiling, to see what it is like, and tx) see what
they were doing in the Soviet Union.
Mr. Arens. Were you the guest of any group or organization in
Moscow ?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Or in Leningrad ?
Mr. Gellert. I was not the guest of any group. I paid my way.
Mr. Arens. And did you attend any schools or classes there?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir; I only stayed for a very short time.
Mr. Arens. Did you make still another trip in 1946 ?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. Arens. Did you make an application for a passport in 1946?
Mr. Gellert. Yes, I did, but not to the Soviet Union.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go in 1946, pursuant to the passport?
Mr. Gellert. I went to Australia.
Mr. Arens. And what was your -purpose in going to Australia ?
Mr. Gellert. I went to my wife's folks; my wife was born there,
and we visited her folks whom she hadn't seen for a good many years.
Mr. Arens. Did you do any studying there ?
Mr. Gfjllert. I did some work there.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Gellert, have you ever been identified witli,
or been a member or an official of, the New York Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Gellert. I respectfully invoke the protection of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. You were at one time cochairman of the New York
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, were you not?
Mr. Gellert. I still invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Did you say cochairman ? "WHio was the chairman ?
Mr. Arens. Thei-e was a chairman whose name was Alex Wright.
Now, I lay before you, Mr. Gellert. a photostatic copy of a letter
of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born — !May
19, 1955 — which sets forth the officers of the New York Committee
for Protection of P^oreign Born, and j'our name is listed as cochair-
man. Please look at that and tell us whether that is an accurate and
correct description of your status with that organization.
(See exhibit 128a, b, appendix, pp. 7320, 7321.)
Mr. Gellert. The answer is the same as I have just given.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Gellert, I lay before you an open letter to
the Judiciary Committee of the Uniled States Senate and tlie House
of Representatives signed by a mimber of people all asking for an
end to the Walter-McCai-ren Immigration and Nationality Act, signed
by a number of people including Dr. Hugo Gellert, New York, N. Y.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 169a, b," see appendix, pp. 7400,
7401.)
Mr. Gellert. Is it Doctor ?
6328 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. No ; it is Mister. Would you kindly look at that docu-
ment and tell us whether or not you signed that petition or that open
letter i
Mr. Gellert. The answer is: I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who solicited your signature to this document?
]\Ir. Gellert. The answer is the same, sir.
;Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the editorial board of
the publication, the New Pioneer ?
( Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And how long were you on the editorial board of the
New Pioneer?
Mr. Gellert. That I cannot remember, sir.
Mr. Arens. Was it a matter of a few months or a matter of a few
3^ears ?
Mr. Gellert. That I do not know, my memory is not very clear
on that. It might have been a couple of years.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Y. J. Jerome, who was on the editorial
board of the Pioneer with you ?
(Witness consulted his counsel. )
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Y. J. Jerome was a Communist agent, was he not ?
Mr. Geixert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
^Ir. Arens. Were you the staff artist of the Communist Daily
Worker ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I contributed, sir, but I have never been a staff
artist.
Mr. Arens. When did vou contribute to the Communist Daily
Worker?
Mr. Gellert. During the war.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you now a pliotostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of December 21, 1935, (page 3) in which ap-
l)ears, "Introducing the Staff" of the Communist Daily Worker, and
among the artists who are introduced by this publication is Hugo
Gellert. Kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not
vou were one of the artists at that time for the Communist Daily
^Vorker?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 170a, b," see appendix, pp. 7J:02,
7403.)
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I am sorry, sir, there seems to be about 20 or 27 very
well known artists listed and my name was among them. I am sorry
that I hadn't remembered it but now I am reminded that I gave
consent to it.
Mr. Arens. Now, did you join in a statement with others who sup-
ported the Soviet trial verdict during the course of the famous
Moscow trial of the Trotsky ites?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I am sorry, but I submit the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a })hotostatic copy of an article
appearing in the Communist Daily Worker (of xVpril 28, 1938,.
p. 4). in which a number of persons are listed as signatories to a
st^itement commending the Moscow trials of the Trotskyites. In
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6329
this list appears the name of Hugo Gellert. Please look at this and tell
us whether or not you joined in this statement ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 171," see appendix, pp. 7404, 7405.)
Mr. Gellert. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Have you changed your mind with reference to the
MoscoAv trials of the Trotskyites since the desanctification of Stalin
who perpetrated the trials?
Mr. GELL7':Rr. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of tlie Com-
munist Daily Worker of November 2, 1951 (p. 8), in wliicli appears
a paid advertisement, in celebration of the Hungarian Daily Journal,
listing as master of ceremonies of the celebration, Mr. Hugo Gellert.
Were you the master of ceremonies on tliat occasion?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 172," see appendix, p. 740G.)
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of John Lautner ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment,
Mr. Arens. ]Mr. Lautner, would you please stand? Mr. Gellert,
look over your left shoulder if you please, sir. Yesterday Mr.
Lautner took an oath before this committee and stated while he was
under oath that he knew you as a member of the Communist Party
while he, Mr. Lautner, was in the Communist Party. Was Mr.
Lautner lying or was he telling the truth ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel,)
Mr, Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, have you ever been a sponsor of a National Com-
mittee to Win Amnesty 'for Smith Act Victims?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Carl Marzani ?
Mr, Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr, Arens. He was treasurer of that organization, was he not?
Mr. Gellert, The answer is the same, sir.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, please, sir, a photostatic copy of
a document (p. 3 of the May 16, 1952, Daily Worker), in which you
are listed as one of 49 notables who have sponsored and formed a com-
mittee, a National Committee to Win Amnesty for Smitli Act Vic-
tims. Please look at that and tell us whether or not you are accurately
identified in that article?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 173," see appendix, p. 7407.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article
appearing in the Daily People's World, a west coast Communist
paper, of July 21, 1952, which is headed, "Notables protest Mrs. Yates
jailing," under the provisions of the Smith Act. Included in the
delegation was one Hugo Gellert identified as a noted New York
artist. Kindly tell this committee whetlier or not you are accurately
identified in that article?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 174," see appendix, p. 7407.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily People's World (p. 7 of the April 29, 1953 issue) . The
article to which I invite your attention is entitled, "U. S. cultural
6330 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
leaders greet Chile conference,'' in which a number of people, including
one Hugo Gellert, joined in sending greetings to the Communist
leaders of a conference held in Chile. Kindly look at that article and
tell us Avliether or not you are accurately identified in that article?
( Document marked '^Exhibit No. 175,'' see appendix, pp. 7407, 7408.)
Mr. Gellert. The answer is the same, please. I invoke the fiftTi
amendment.
Mr. .Vkexs. Do you know Michael Gold?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arexs.'Now, the Masses and Mainstream, just last year, de-
voted a feature article to saluting you as one of the outstanding in-
dividuals of this Nation. Isn't that correct? Do you have a recol-
lection of that?
]Mr. Geelert. I guess so.
Mr. Arens. ^Yho wrote the article, do you recall?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. ]May I see that ?
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, sir, a document which is a salute
to Hugo Gellert, appearing in the Communist publication, Masses and
Mainstream (January 1055 issue, pp. 27-31), and the article is written
b}'' Michael Gold. Is that the article to which you were alluding a
moment ago when you said you were aware that Masses and Main-
stream had this feature article about you?
(Document mtirked "Exhibit No. i76a~e," see appendix, pp. 7409-
7413.)
( Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellei;-]-. Yes ; this is the article.
Mr. Arens. Did Michael Gold interview you in preparation of this
article ?
Mr. Gellert. I use the fifth amendment, please.
Mr. Arens. Now, I want to invite your attention to an article on
page 3 of the Communist Daily Worker of March 13, 1953. I would
like to read it to you :
Stalin Lives in the Hearts of All Men of Good Will
Hugo Gellert, widely known artist, yesterday paid tribute to Stalin in these
words : "Stalin, teacher and leader of his people, the laboring: masses * * *.
"In the land of the workers, where no man may exploit his fellow men, the
unfettered creative energies of the people, their colossal achievements for which
there is no precedent in history, made hira the greatest among the great of our
time.
"His name is a legend. Stalin lives in the hearts of all men of good will."
Look at that article now and tell us whetlier or not that accurately
quotes you in your sentiments respecting Mr. Stalin?
Mr. Gellert. I respectfully invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you ii^ 1953 maintain the position that Stalin was
such a blessing to all mankind and he lives in the hearts of all men?
Mr. Geli-ert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you, by the way, changed your opinion of Stalin
or your position with reference to the magnitude of his greatness in
the last several months ?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fiftli amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a cover drawing repro-
duced in the Worker of A])ril 12, 1953 (p. 3). According to the
Worker you are the author of this drawing. And I wish to invite your
COMJVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6331
attention to the caption, "Bring onr boys home from Korea." Did you
author that cartoon or that drawing?
(Document marked "PLxhibit No. 177," see appendix, p. 7414.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the hf th amendment, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been preparing any drawings recently or any
placards addressed to the Soviet Union asking them to bring their boys
home from Hungary ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gelkert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, tell us about your teaching career, Mr. Gellert.
Have you been an instructor in the Jefferson School of Social Science?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
appearing on page 7 of the Daily Worker of September 29, 1953,
entitled ''Gellert Teaches Political Cartooning," in which the body
of the article states that you have been teaching political cartooning
in the Jefferson School of Social Science in New York. Please look
at that article and tell us whether or not it is a true and accurate repre-
sentation of your activities in the Jefferson School of Social Science?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 178," see appendix^ p. 7415.)
Mr. Geli^rt. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. What have you done with reference to clemency for the
Rosenbergs in the last year or two ?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a document (a photostatic copy
of p. 6 of the Worker, Sunday, June 14, 1953) showing a drawing of
the Rosenbergs in jail, entitled "A New Drawing by Hugo Gellert."
Please look at that and tell us wliether or not you authored or drew
that sketch of the Rosenbergs in jail ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 179," see appendix, p. 7416.)
Mr. Gellert. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever done any murals, any drawings, under
contract w4th the United States Government?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever received any compensation from any
Government agency, State, Federal, or otherwise ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. If you permit me, sir, during the existence of the
WPA, I was to get a commission from a very important corporation
in America to paint the mui-al for $5,000 and the WPA requested that
I let them have it and I did so, in order to raise the prestige of their
projects. I was employed, I believe for 3 months, at the rate of $22
to teach young men and women at tlie Roosevelt High School, as a
compensation for it.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before yon a photostatic copy of an article
from the Communist Daily Worker (p. 11, tlie Worker, April 26, 1953)
to the elFect that j^ou worked with Robert Minor when he was editor
of the Liberator, a publication known as the Liberator, and you were
one of his collaborators. Kindly look at that article and tell us
of a publication known as tlie Liberator, and you were one of his
collaborators. Kindly look at that article and tell us whether or not
you and Robert Minor were collaborators in this enterprise?
6332 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 180," see appendix, p. 7-ilT.)
Mr. Gellert. I respectfully invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. No^^', you have been active in undertaking to end anti-
Communist legislation and what you have termed — you and your asso-
ciates term — ^^'sedition laws and inhuman legislation"; isn't that
correct ?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. xVrexs. I invite your attention now to a photostatic copy of an
article in the Communist Daily People's World (p. 7, December 5, 1055,
issue) with reference to a fund-raising project by the Committee To
End Sedition Laws, which mentions a Hugo Gellert. Please look at
that article and tell us while you are under oath whether or not you
are he ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 181," see appendix, p. 7418.)
Mr. Gellert. The fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, we have no further questions of this
witness.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Constantme Ossip, please.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Ossip. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CONSTANTINE OSSIP, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Ossip. Constantine Ossip, 81 Orchard Street, New York City.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena served
upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Mr. Ossip. I cannot understand.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena served
upon you ?
Mr. Ossip. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Needleman. Isidore Gr. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York
6, N. Y.
ISIr. Arens. Where were you when the subpena was actually served
upon you?
Mr. Ossip. At my work.
Mr. Arens. Where ?
Mr. Ossip. 180 East 16th Street.
Mr. Arens. And what is the establishment? Wliat is there ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6333
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr.AREXs. Why?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. Because it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Is that a newspaper ?
Mr. Ossip. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. That is the Kussky Golos, a Communist newspaper, is
it not?
Mr. Ossip. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. What is the name of the paper ?
Mr. Arexs. He says not that he knows. Is the Russky Golos news-
paper headquartered at 130 East 16th Street in New York?
Mr. Ossip. I use the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question for this reason : He has just stated
that he didn't think that the Russky Golos was a Communist news-
paper, and he has just told us that the subpena was served upon him
at the place which is the headquarters of the Russky Golos newspaper,
and, therefore, I respectfully request that he be ordered and directed
to answer.
Mr. Moulder (presiding) . The witness is so directed.
Mr. Ossip. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly keep your voice up, Mr. Ossip ?
Mr. Ossip. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Where and when were vou born ?
Mr. Ossip. In January 1, 1909, in the TTkraine, U. S. S. R.
Mr. Arens. And when did you arrive in the United States ?
Mr. Ossip. January 2, 1929.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Ossip. By my f atlier, by my father's citizen paper.
Mr. Arens. Your father was naturalized wlien ?
Mr. Ossip. In November 14, 1927.
Mr. Arens. And you didn't arrive in the country until 1929; is
that correct ?
Mr. Ossip. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Give us just a Avord, if you please, now, Mr. Ossip, about
your employment since you arrived in the United States. What was
your first princi])al employment?
Mr. Ossip. Fii-st I was working as a pipe cutter, cutting pipes, in
an iron company, and I don't remember the number, on the north side
of New York City, an iron shop.
Mr. Arens. What was your next principal employment ?
Mr. Ossip. National Biscuit Co., in New York City.
Mr. Arens. And your next principal employment?
Mr. Ossip. Next I went to automobile school on Second Avenue,
New York City, and I took tlie course of a mechanic and driver, and
then after that I was working in a garage, 23 Broome Street, for Sam
Green})erg, New York City.
Mr. Arens. And your next employment ?
Mr. Ossip. My next employment, I tliink, I worked for my father
as a truckdriver.
^Ir. Arens. And your next employment ?
^[r. Ossip. T don't remember what was next.
6334 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Well, somewhere along that line, in that time, did you
AYork for the International Workers Order?
Mr. Ossip. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you work about that time for the American Russian
Fraternal Society?
]Mr. OssiP. I decline to ansAver on the protection of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. You at one time, as a matter of fact, were national
secretary of the American Russian Fraternal Society, were you not ?
Mr. Ossip. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Ossip, I want to invite your attention to
certain documents. The first document is an article from the Com-
munist Daily Worker of March 1954 — page 5 of March 3, 1954, issue —
entitled "248 Delegates Organize Fight To Repeal Walter-McCarran
Act," and it is a conference in which a person by the name of Con-
stantin Ossip is identified here as treasurer of a newly formed organi-
zation, the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at this exhibit, please, sir, and tell this committee whether
or not you are accurately described in this exhibit as treasurer of this
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 182," see appendix, p. 7419.)
]\Ir. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Were you treasurer of such an organization referred
to in the document mentioned by comisel ?
Mr. Ossip. I like to invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, you were treasurer of the New York Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born ; w^ere you not ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Kindly keep your voice up.
Mr. Ossip. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a reproduction of the Lamp, the
official publication of the New York Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, under date of 1954, the March-April edition. In the
article appearing in the upper right-hand corner are the lists of the
officers of this organization, including Constantin Ossip, treasurer.
Please tell this committee whether or not you are accurately identified
there?
(See exhibit No. 112, appendix, p. 7294.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How long have j^ou known your counsel ?
Mr. Ossip. Not that I remember.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Ossip. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long have you known him ? Did yon know him
2 weeks ago ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. About 2 w^eeks ago, sir.
Mr. Arens. Who introduced you to him ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Scherer. What was the answer ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Sctierer. Can you speak a little loudei-, witness? Would you
push that microphone closer to you, please ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6335
Mr. Arens. Do you know Mr. Gellert, the witness wlio just preceded
you to the witness stand ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Was your counsel arranged for you by a person known
by you to be a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Ossir. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a contractual arrangement with your
counsel for paying him for his services ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a reproduction of a letter con-
cerning a New York Conference To Defend the Rights of Foreign
Born Americans, to be held March 19, 1955, under the auspices of
the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which
the treasurer of that organization is Constantin Ossip. Please tell
this committee whether or not you arc accurately identified there as
treasurer of that organization ?
(See exhibit No. 113, appendix, p. 7295.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of local S065 of the Inter-
national Workers Order ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention now, Mr. Ossip, to a
stool-pigeon publication. People have been telling us the last few
days that anyone who identifies a person as a Communist is a stool
pigeon. Therefore, I would suggest this might be called a stool-
pigeon publication. It is a publication of the Communist Party.
The publication of the Communist Party is entitled "Two Decades
of the Communist Party, New York State, USA."
There are congratulations, on the Communist Party's 20th anni-
versary. Please look at this publication, and tell us whether or not
you are accurately identified by the Communist Party's publication
as one of the Comrades ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 183a, b,'' see appendix, pp. 7420,
7421.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a docmnent, which is a publica-
tion entitled, "The New Order," — April, 1938, Convention Issue —
and it is an organ of the International Workers Order according to
its masthead here, listing a number of delegates to a convention of
the International Workers Order, including one Constantin Ossip.
Please look at this document, sir, and tell us whether or not you are
accurately identified there as one of the delegates?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 184a-c," see appendix, pi). 7422-
7424.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what you have done in the course of the last
few years to assert your position on matters of national legislation,
civil rights legislation, immigration legislation, or legislation of any
kind ?
(Witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. It is a perfectly legitimate activity for any person to
assert his views on legislation, but just tell this committee what you
have done in the course of the last few years to assert your views on
immigration matters.
6336 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Ossir. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Akens. Did you attend or were you a leader in a National Con-
ference to Defend the Rights of the Foreign Born held in New York
City in December of 1954?
Mr. Ossn'. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, the summary of the proceedings
of the National Conference To Defend the Rights of the Foreign
Born, in New York City, December 1954, in which a number of peo-
ple are listed as leaders of nationality groups who made reports in-
cluding one "K. Ossip," from the Russian group. Kindly look at this
document, and I invite your attention particularly where my finger is
pointing, and tell this committee whether or not you are accurately
described in that document as a participant and leader in the con-
ference ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Russian section of the Communist Party?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
, Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a document, a publication of the
American Slav Congress, a rally to win the peace, 1946, in which your
name appears as a leader of the Russian section of the American
Slav Congress. Kindly look at this document and tell this commit-
tee whether or not you are accurately described in that document ?
(See exhibit No.'68, appendix, p. 7213.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been at Foley Square, New York City ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I suggest the witness be ordered and directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
( AYitness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Ossip. I tliink I was there once.
Mr. Arens. What was the occasion for you being there ?
My. Ossip. I like to invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were there as a picket, were you not, at Foley
Square, on behalf of the Communist traitors who were convicted; isn't
that correct ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
INIr. Arens. Are you a veteran of the war ?
Mr. Ossip. Yes. sir.
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ?
Mr. Ossip. I served in the United States Army.
]\rr. Arens. Where and what physical location ?
^Ir. Ossip. The ])hysical location, I had my training in Camp
TMieeler, basic training, and then I was assigned to the 79th Chemical
Company, smokescreen generator, and I went with the 79th to Eng-
land, and in England I was assigned to the 23d Battalion Head-
quarters, and I was in Normandy.
iSIr. Arens. Do you still have your United States Army uniform?
My. Ossip. I think so.
]\rr. Arens. Did you use your TTnited States Army uniform in a
picket in August 1949, before Judge Medina's court in Foley Square?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6337
Mr. Ossip. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember being in a picket line before Judge
Medina's court in New York City, in 1949 ?
Mr. Ossip. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir, I lay before you now a photostatic copy
of an article appeari'ng in the Communist Daily Worker, of August
1949, August 10 (p. 3):
Members of the International Workers Order who are veterans will join a
veterans picket line. * * *
Veterans were urged to wear their decorations and overseas caps.
Kindly look at that article and see if that refreshes your recollection ?
(See exhibit No. 90, appendix, p. 7255.)
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. I still don't remember if I was there, sir.
Mr. Arens. You don't remember whether or not this is an accurate
account of the situation ?
Mr. Ossip. I don't recall.
]Mr. Needleman. You asked him wliether he was there.
Mr. Arens. You don't remember whether you participated ^
Mr. Ossip. I don't recall.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, were you a member of the Communist Party
at the time that you were in the armed services of the United States ?
Mr. Ossip. I would like to invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a document which is a call to
a United Labor and Peoples conference for May Day 1949, in which
you are listed as a sponsor — New York secretary, American-Russian
Fraternal Society, IWO. Please tell this committee whether or not
you are accurately described there and whether or not you did so
participate.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 185a-c," see appendix, pp. 7425-
7427.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the May Day celebration in 1949 ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a document, which is a
call to the United Labor and Peoples Conference for May Day 1951,
in which a number of people are listed as sponsors, including a C.
Ossip, Russian-American Society. Kindly look at that and tell us
whether or not that person is you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 186a-c," see appendix, pp. 7428-
7430.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Israel Amter?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Carl Brodsky ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were one of their buddies when they were running
for public office, were you not, one of their supporters ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the statf
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. The witness will be excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly come forward ?
6338 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY 0? JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, you have been sworn on this record in the
course of tlie hist day or so ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lautxer. That is correct-
Mr. Arens. You indicated to me informally this morning- that you
wanted to give additional information for this record in response to
the series of questions posed to you yesterday by Representative
Scherer ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct-
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that you just proceed.
Mr. Lautner. To my understanding yesterday, the question was
posed whether there is any qualitative change in the Communist Party
in this country, and I gave answers to that. I would like to document
further, my answer to strengthen that answer.
I have before me a magazine, an official Soviet publication called
International Affairs. This publication came into being after the
dissolution of the Coimnunist Information Bureau with headquarters
in Bucharest, and the dissolution of its official organ called For a Last-
ing Peace, for a People's Democracy.
This official publication. International Affairs, is a Soviet journal
published monthly in Russian and English. It states that its aim is
to promote knowdedge and understanding of international problems.
It discusses the foreign policies of the Soviet Union and other coun-
tries, current events, international economic problems, and the situa-
tion in particular countries and areas.
Its contributors are experts both from the Soviet Union and other
countries. This publication is distributed by the same Soviet agency
that distributes New Times and other official publications of the Soviet
Union, widely distributed in the Communist Party.
In the United States this publication is distributed by, among others,
Imported Publications and Products, 4 West 16th Street, New York,
N. Y. This particular setup was organized under the leadership of
one Margaret Krmnbein. Margaret Krumbein was on the National
Review Commission, the discipline commission of the Communist
Party, USA, at the time I was a member of that commission.
Now, in this publication there is an article headed, "For Peace,
Democracy, and National Independence," and a subheading says,
"Communist Parties of the Capitalist Countries in tlie Struggle for
Unity in Action of All Patriotic Forces Against Imperialist Reaction
and the Danger of a New War." That article was written by one
V. Kortunov.
I would like to read just a few excerpts of how this article reflects
Soviet policy and gives guidance and leadership to the other Com-
munist Parties.
A leading role in the struggle for peace, democracy, and social progress is
played by the great, almost 30-milllon army of Communists who in each country
unite and direct into a common channel all the streams of the modern democratic
movement.
The Communist Parties of the different countries are working in the most
varied conditions : The Communist Party of the Soviet Union heads the struggle
of the Soviet people in advancing from socialism to communism ; the Com-
munist I'arties of the people's democracies are leading the popular masses in
the struggle to build socialism ; in the capitalist countries the Communist Parties
act as the vanguard of all the patriotic forces in the fight for peace, democracy.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6339
and socialism. But despite the variety of conditions, the international Com-
munist movement as a whole is a single and monolithic force, united on a
common basis — the immortal and constantly developing Marxist-Leninist teach-
ing which is the guide for the Communist Parties of the world. Creative
application of the great ideas of Marxism in keeping with the constantly
changing conditions of social life makes the Communist movement an invincible
force.
Discussing, among parties, the party of the United States, it says
the following :
The Communist Party of the United States is working under exceptionally
difficult conditions at the moment, being subjected to persecution and repressions.
Communists are banned from government service, denied jobs in some branches
of industry, barred from teaching in schools and from holding leading positions
in the trade unions. Despite these hardships the American Communistic are
waging a courageous struggle for peace and the vital interests of the people.
This is another quotation :
After the Second World War, the international Communist movement entered
into a new, higher phase ; it has acquired unprecedented strength and has every
possibility of achieving further success. Undoubtedly this success will be
facilitated by the important decision reached by eight Communist and Workers'
Parties to dissolve their Information Bureau, which has outlived itself as a
form of contact between the parties. The Communist Parties will find new
forms for mutual links and contact.
A final quote is this :
A feature of this new phase is the monolithic solidarity of the Communist
Parties, the undivided triumph of the Marxist-Leninist ideology, and the further
strengthening of the parties' ranks. The elaboration by the 20th Congress of
the Communist Party of the Soviet Union of a number of vital questions of the
day greatly assists the Communist Parties. Communists all over the world
unanimously approved the results of the 20th Congress of the CPSU.
I wanted to read this in order to strengthen my verbal answers
that there is no (|ualitative rhange in the positions of the Communist
Party as long as they adhere to Marxism-Leninism as an ideology,
as a basic principle. As long as they adhere loj^ally to these prin-
ciples, they are still part of the worldwide conspiracy headed by the
Soviet Union against democracy and against freedom and against the
dignity and rights of the human individual as an individual.
Mr. Moulder. I think the committee will stand in recess until
2 p.m.
(Whereupon the committee recessed at 12 : 30 p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 1956
The hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., Hon. Francis E. Walter (chair-
man of the committee) presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jeanette Stern Turner, will you please come
forward ?
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Turner. I do.
(5340 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEANETTE STEEN TURNER; ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. TuRXKR. Jeanette S. Turner, and I live at 4144 48th Street,
Long Island City, and I am a housewife.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Turner, in response
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself ?
Mr. Needleman. My name is Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway,
New York, N.Y. '
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Turner, how long have you known your counsel ?
Mrs. Turner. For a number of years,
Mr. Arens. Where were you born? I will just ask you where you
were born, and I will not ask a lady when she was born.
Mrs. Turner. That is very kind of you. I was born in Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. And give us, if you please, just a brief thumbnail sketch
of your education.
Mrs. Turner. Much of my education was private, but I did go to
attend the Chicago and Northwestern Universities.
Mr. Arens. Did you graduate from Northwestern University?
Mrs. Turner. From neither.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education ?
Mrs. Turner. I don't know that it was ever completed.
Mr. Arens. When did you finish your training at Northwestern?
Mrs. Turner. I can't remember the year.
Mr. Arens. Now, in 1934 did you make application for a passport
to go abroad ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And was a passport issued pursuant to that application ?
Mrs. Turner. I believe it was, but I didn't use it.
Mr. Arens. Where did you intend to go when you applied for your
passport ?
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember. I had to take a previous trip in
which I covered many countries in Europe, and I was going over
the same territory.
Mr. Arens. What countries in Europe had you visited?
Mrs. Turner. France, Switzerland, and England.
Mr. Arens. Did you get into any of the countries we now call Iron
Curtain countries ?
Mrs. Turner. No.
Mr. Arens. May I ask you now, did you take a trip abroad in 1945 ?
Mrs. Turner. I believe that I will invoke the protection of the fifth
amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. AVhy?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6341
Mrs. Turner. Because it mav incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Do 3'ou honestly feel that if you told this committee
whether or not you took a trip abroad in 1945 that you would be
supplying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, did you have a passport in 1935 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had a passport, but I did not use it.
Mr. Arens. I am now interrogating her about the second trip.
The Chairman. Did you have a passport in 1945 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had one in 1935, but I did not use it.
The Chairman. Then you did not take a trip abroad in 1935?
Mr. Arens. Not on the first passport. I am now interrogating her
about a trip in 1945, 10 years subsequent.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Arens. Now, where were you emploj^ed in 1945?
Mrs. Turner. I have not been employed.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation in 1945 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had no occupation except that of housewife.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever executive secretary of the New York
City Consumers' Council?
Mrs. Turner. I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Well, did you have an occupation at the time that you
made application for your passport in 1945 ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I had no occupation then.
Mr. Arens. Did you have the title of executive secretary of the
New York City Consumers Council ?
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you were executive secre-
tary of the New York City Consumers Council in 1945, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes; there may be some attempt to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a passport
application of November 1945, bearing the signature of a Jeannette
Turner, and I will ask you if you would kindly look at the signature
and tell us whether or not that is your signature.
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the protection of the fifth amendment,
please.
Mr. Arens. You understand that as a witness before this commit-
tee you are entitled to receive certain expense money and a per diem.
You understand that ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. In order to do so it is necessary for you to sign a
voucher. I respectfully ask if you will now sign where marked
"payee" on a voucher for your expenses ?
Mr. Needleman. If that will be filled in I will advise the client
to sign it, and I can't advise her to sign a blank document.
Mr. Arens. We will have it filled in, Mr. Needleman.
Now, in 1949 did you make application for a passport?
85333— 57— pt. 1 14
6342 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
(The witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner, Well, it might incriminate me, or it m;vy incriminate
me.
Mr. Arens. Did you travel abroad in 1949 ?
The Chairman : What was that question ?
Mr. Arens. I asked her if she made an application for a passport
in 1949.
The Chairman. And you feel that if you would answer the question
as to whether or not you made an application for a passport, you might
be prosecuted criminally ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
The Chairman. What crime could anyone possibly be charged
with for making an application for a United States passport?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this on the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Wha,tisthat?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you take a trip abroad in 1949?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you leave the United States of America in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You decline to answer the last two questions. For
what reason do you decline or refuse to answer the questions ?
Mrs. Turner. It m.ay incriminate me under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You honestly believe that if you admitted that you
took a trip out of the United States, without stating where or for what
purpose, you might be prosecuted criminally ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
The Chairman. What crime could you be charged with for taking
a trip ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. Well, I claim the protection of the fifth amendment.
' Mr. Arens. Did you, in 1949, have friends in France that you
wanted to visit ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
. Mrs. Turner. I again invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and
directed to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. Did you
have friends in France in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, in 1949 you did take a trip to Europe; did you
not?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, did you, in 1949, take a trip to Mexico ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had no occupation.
Mr. Arens. What was your source of income in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I have a private income.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6343
Mr. Arexs. "What organization were you affiliated with in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. What organization was she connected with?
Mr. Arens. Among others, it was the Communist Party, Mr.
Chairman.
The CHAiRaiAN. Just a moment. Is that a fact ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the Communist Party paid
your expenses on these trips, didn't they ?
Mrs. Turner. I beg your pardon. I explained that I have a private
income.
Mr. Arens. Now, did the Department of State in the course of
the early 1950's, in ll)5-2, request you to surrender your passport ?
Mrs. TuRXFJt. I refuse to answer, or I decline to answer under the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfuly suggest that that is a
purely legitimate question and should require an answer.
The CiiAiRsrAN. You ai"e directed to answer that question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fiftli amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you send a letter to the Department of State
under date of November 30, 1952, saying, in effect, that you had
lost your passport ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Kindly keep your voice up, ma'am. I lay before you
now a photostatic copy of a letter signed "Jeanette S. Turner," ad-
dressed to Mr. Thomas McQuillan, Post Office Building, New York,
in which you state that you had lost your passport. I will ask you
if you will kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not
that is a true and accurate reproduction of the original.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 187," see appendix, p. 7431.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you, in 1937, executive secretary of the Women's
Committee, Civic Division, New York, of the American League
Against War and Fascism ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment on
that.
Mr. Arens. Are you against fascism ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't wish to discuss my opinions witli this com-
mittee.
Mr. Arens. Were you against fascism in 1937 ?
Mrs. Ti'RNER. Again I do not wish to discuss my opinions with this
committee.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, if you please, a photostatic copy
of a document which is a reproduction of the Comnumist Daily Worker
of April 19, 1937 (p. 2), protesting the bill against women represent-
ing the women's division of the American Tieague Against War and
Fascism. A number of people, including "Jeanette Stern Turner,
executive secretary of the women's committee, city division, left
yesterday for Washington, D. C." to confer with certain Congressmen
respecting some legislation.
6344 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Please look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not you have a
recollection of leaving New York City to go to Washington to confer
with some Congressman on some legislation.
(Document •marked "Exhibit No. 188," see appendix, p. 7-i32.)
Mrs. Turner, I invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. ScHERER. What was the date of that ?
Mr.AREXs. 1937.
The Chairman. You invoke the fifth amendment ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What crime is there in discussing legislation with
Congressmen ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of the
Daily Worker (January 21, 1941, p. 1) with reference to still another
one of your activities as indicated bj' a photograph and an article in
this Daily Worker.
Are you the Jeanette Turner who is pictured here in this issue
which is captioned, "Seamen's Wives volunteer to aid work of Ameri-
can Peace Mobilization"? Look at that photograph and tell us
whether or not that is your photograph.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 189," see appendix, p. 7433.)
Mr. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You were at that time working with the Fascist forces
in condemning American aid, were you not ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer on a similar basis.
Mr. Arens. Now, what have you done, if you will please tell this
committee, in the course of the last few years in activities with refer-
ence to the Internal Security Act, the so-called Mundt bill, when it
was in the House of Representatives? Do j-ou have a recollection of
any activity in that respect ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, as a matter of fact, in 1948 you joined, as the
representative of the New York City Consumers Council, in protesting
the enactment of the Mundt bill by the Congress, did you not ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of, or affiliated with, the
Congress of American Women ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment also on that.
The Chairman. Just a moment. Was that the New York City
Consumers Council ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the New York Consumers
Council ?
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the fifth amendment, please.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer that question because that is
not listed as a proscribed organization.
Mrs. Turner, I prefer to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document (Daily
Worker article, January 6, 1938, p. 3) entitled "Women C. P. Lead-
ers Honor Mother Bloor."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 190," see appendix, p. 7434.)
First of all, tell us who was Mother Bloor?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6345
Mrs. Turner. I refuse to answer it under the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Now, tliis article indicates that a number of women
Communist Party leaders honored Mother Bloor and among the prom-
inent people who were at this celebration alluded to in this Daily
Worker exhibit, is a person identified here as Jeanette Turner.
Please look at that article and tell us whether or not that prompts
your recollection with reference to your participation in the
celebration.
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, in order that you may be paid by this
committee for your per diem and for your travel expenses, we filled
out the expense voucher. Kindly sign that right there where it says
"Payee."
(The witness signed the document.)
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that after this voucher has been
processed that that part of it bearing the signature of this witness be
incorporated in this record so that there may be a comparison of sig-
natures to other documents.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 191," see appendix, p. 7435.)
The Chairman. All right.
]\Ir. Arens. Now, I lay before you a document, "A Call to an Action
Conference for Freedom", warning against proposed legislation of
the House Committee on Un-American Activities titled "Subversive
Activity Control Act of 1948.""
A number of people, according to this pamphlet, are going to get
together and fight and they are going to solicit their Congressmen
and people all over the country to oppose this legislation.
Kindly look at this document on w^hich your name appears as one
of the driving forces and tell us whether or not you have a recollection
of that participation.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 192a-c," see appendix, pp. 7436-
7438.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, I have here before me a photostatic copy of a
letterhead (dated February 2.5, 1949) of the Congress of American
Women, affiliated with the Women's International Democratic Feder-
ation, also a consultant to the United Nations.
One of the vice presidents of this organization, according to this
letterhead is a Jeanette Stern Turner. Please look at this letterhead
which I shall now lay before you calling for direct negotiations with
Premier Stalin and tell us whether or not you are the Jeanette Stern
Turner identified on this letterhead as a vice president of this organ-
ization that is a consultant to the United Nations and is affiliated with
the Women's International Democratic Federation.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 193," see appendix, p. 7439.)
(Witness conferred witli counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are certainly not ashamed of anything you may
have done for the legitimate interests of peace, are you, ma'am '^
Mrs. Turner. I certainly am not ashamed of anything I have done,
but it is a matter of legal ])rotection.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly fear, and I ask you this question in all
sincerity for the purpose of clarification of this record, that if you
told this committee now while you are under oath whether or not you
6346 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
have been vice president of the Congress of American Women you
would be supplyiuff information which might be used against you in
a criminal proceedmg?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. According to the Communist Daily Worker of February
28, 1949 (pp. 1 and 9), there was formed a Committee for Free Po-
litical Advocacy, apparently which would be a very laudable objective.
AYere you affiliated with this organization?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember it at all.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the Daily
Worker of February 28, 1949, in which you, as a representative of the
New York Consumers Committee, are identified in connection with
that organization and see if that refreshes your recollection.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 194," see appendix, pp. 7440,
7441.)
(AVitness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. No, it does not refresh my recollection at all.
Mr. Arens. Now, I ask you whether or not you have been active in
an organization protesting the jailing of three Communist defendants
in 1949 in New York City.
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Now, according to the June 1949 issue of the Far East
Spotlight, a copy of which publication I have in my hand, a publication
of the Commiitee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy, you are listed
as a member of the executive committee of this organization.
Kindly look at this document which I now lay before you, and tell
this committee whether or not you are a member of the executive com-
mittee, or were a member of the executive committee, of the Committee
for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 195a, b," see appendix, pp. 7442,
7443.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You have maintained a considerable interest in the
course of the last several years in the immigration laws of this coun-
try, have you not ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. AVhat has been the basis of that interest of yours in the
immigration laws of this country ?
(AVitness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. As before, I repeat, I refuse to discuss my opinions
with this committee.
Mr. Arens. You just told us that you have maintained a consider-
able interest in the immigration laws over the course of the last few
years, is that correct ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. AVTiat have j^ou done in the pursuit of that interest of
yours with reference to the immigration laws ?
(AVitness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't know what you mean when you say, what I
have done.
Mr. Arens. Have you joined with others in any organizations de-
signed to affect the legislative currents on immigration ?
Now, Mrs. Turner, the truth is that you have been an active sponsor
of the National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Bom
Americans. Isn't that true?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6347
Mrs. TuKNER. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a reproduction of a letterhead
of the National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans, dated February 16. 1953, which letterhead shows among
the sponsors, Jeanette S. Turner.
Please look at this and tell us whether or not you are she.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 19G," see appendix, p. 7444.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Now, in December of 1952 you were one of the leading
participants in the National Conference to Defend the Rights of
Foreign Born Americans, were you not? This was held in Detroit,
Mich.
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that in December of 1952, in Detroit, Mich., you were one of
the speakers, one of the leading officials of the National Conference
to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans held in Detroit,
]Mich., and you represented at that conference the National Women's
Appeal to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you make a speech in Detroit in 1952, in December ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You were not quite as shy in your presentation in
Detroit in 1952 as you are before this committee, were you ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, in the pursuit of your interest on immigration
matters, I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of a letter which
is addressed to the chairman of the House Committee on Veterans
Affairs, Washington, D. C, March (4) , 1956, signed by Jeanette S.
Turner, with reference to a certain person Avho was having his pension
discontinued because he had been found to be a Communist.
Kindly look at that letter and tell this committee whether or not
that is one of your public activities and services.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 197a, b," see appendix, pp. 7445,
7446.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Wlio was this man concerning whom you wrote the
chairman of the PTouse Committee on Veterans Affairs?
Mrs. Turner. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Robert Thompson was his name ; was it not ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer, fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who asked you to write this letter to the chairman of
the Veterans Affairs Committee?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You understand you have a perfect right to write let-
ters to anybody, don't you ?
Mrs. Turner, You are asking an opinion, and I am not expressing
opinions or discussing opinions here.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you, if you please, ma'am, a docu-
ment, which is a call to a Bill of Rights Conference to be held in the
Henry Hudson Hotel in New York City (July 16-17, 1949) listing
a number of people who are sponsors of this conference on the Bill
of Rights and a very laudable phraseology, to "defend" the Bill of
6348 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Rights, includhie:, iimonp: other persons, one who is identified here as
Jeanette Stern Turner, New York City Consumers Council.
Kindly look at this and tell us whether or not you are she.
(See exhibit No. 62c, appendix, p. 7208.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, do you remember in attendance at that confer-
ence, the attack that was made upon the Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember an attack that was made upon the
so-called Trotskyites ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention now to still another document,
which is on the letterhead of the Conference for Peaceful Alterna-
tives to the Atlantic Pact, dated August 21, 1949, and attachment.
It is a form letter which was sent to each, we understand, of tlie
Members of the Congress. Kindly look at this document in which
the name Mrs. Jeanette S. Turner, executive secretary. New York
City Consumers Council, Long Island, appears and tell this committee
while you are under oath whether or not you participated in that
organization.
(See exhibit No. 120d, appendix, p. 7311.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Needleman. On what page is her name?
Mr. Arens. There it is.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember being connected with it.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember being connected with the National
Women's Appeal ?
Mr. Moulder. I did not understand the response of the witness.
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember it.
j\Ir. Needleman. In connection with that organization.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember being connected with the National
Women's Appeal as one of the officers ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer, invoking the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I do not know what the Communist conspiracy is.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the stall inter-
rogation of this witness.
The Chairman. Mrs. Turner, this committee hoped that because
of the truly horrible attack made by Russia on Hungary that even
the hard-boiled American Communists might be Avilling to make a
contribution to the security of America by telling what they could
about the conspiracy and about the connection that the American
Communists have with Russia.
We are indeed disappointed that you and these other witnesses did
not see fit to assist this committee at this time.
Mr. Scherer. I have just one question, Mr. Chairman.
Counsel for the committee, Mrs. Turner, asked you about the letter
you wrote to Congressman Teague as chairman of the House Veterans
Committee on behalf of Robert Thompson.
COMIMXJXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6349
You wrote that letter in March of this year, just a few months
ago. At the time that you wrote that letter on behalf of Robert
Thompson j-ou kneAv, did 3'ou not, that he had been convicted under
the Smith Act and had jumped bail ?
("Witness conferred AAith counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. That is all.
Mr. Arens. Mr. A. Harrj- Levitan, please.
Tlie Chairman. Do you swear the testimonj'^ you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Leaitax. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF A. HAKRY LEVITAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH rOREE
Mr. Arens. Kindl}^ identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Levitan. My name is A. Harry Levitan, and my offices are at
1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia, and I am a member of the bar of
Philadelphia County.
Mr. Arens. And how long have you been admitted to practice
law?
Mr. Levitan. I Avas admitted to the practice of law in October
1935.
Mr. Arens. For the purpose of further identification, you repre-
sented this morning Mr. Sol Rotenberg ?
Mr. LE^^TAN. I did, and I have represented man}'^ people before
this committee, and I will represent some others this afternoon if they
are called.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
]Mr. Levitan. I am not.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lea^tan. I decline to answer that question under that provision
of the fifth amendment -which says that I need not be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Arens. "Were you a member of the Communist Party a year
ago?
Mr. Levitan. I decline to answer that question for the reason given.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months
ago?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. Will you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months
ago?
Mr. Lea^tan. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 9 months
ago?
Mr. Levitan. I was not.
Mv. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 12 montlis
ago?
Mr. Levitan. I will refuse to ansAver that for the reason already
given.
6350 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party 11 months
ago
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer that for the reason given.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party lOi/^
months ago?
Mr. FoRER. Can we shorten this numbers game by
The Chairman. This is not a numbers game, Mr. Forer, and I think
we can sliorten it very considerably by asking the witness one ques-
tion. When did you cease to be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Levitan. 1 have not admitted being a member of the Com-
munist Party, Mr. WaUer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfuly suggest in the presence of this witness,
another witness be brought forward so that we can have a clearer
identification. Mr. Herman Thomas, will you kindly come forward?
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Thomas. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN THOMAS
Mr. Arens. Mr, Thomas, you have previously testified before this
committee ; is that correct ?
Mr. Thomas. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I was an undercover agent for the FBI.
Mr. Arens. Please tell us the period of time in which you were an
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Thomas. From April 1944 until May 6, 1954.
Mr. Arens. During the period of time that you were a member of
the Communist Party, did you have occasion to make the acquaint-
anceship of a person by the name of A. Harry Levitan?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know that person as a Communist ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify A. Harry Levitan, who
to your certain knowledge was a Comunist?
Mr. Thomas. Was a Communist, yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in the hearing room today?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point him out to the Committee?
Mr, Thomas. He is seated right here.
TESTIMONY OF A. HARRY LEVITAN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. You have just heard the testimony of Mr, Hennan
Thomas, in which he said that he knew you as a Communist. Was he
lying or telling the truth?
Mr. FoRER. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman. LTnder the circum-
stances of this case, I ask that I be given leave to briefly cross ex-
amine Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Arens. Was he lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. Levitan. We would like to cross examine Mr. Thomas.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6351
The Chairman. You can answer the question.
Mr. FoRER. Mr. Moulder was williucr to give nie that opportunity
yesterday.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Moulder is not the chairman of this committee,
as you know.
Mr. FoRER. The committee ought to have a policy.
The Chairman. We have a policy, and it is in the rules. Go ahead
please.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Levitan, you have just heard the statements by Mr.
Thomas. He said that you were a Communist. Was he lying or was
he telling the truth ^
Mr. Le\t:tan. Mr. Thomas testified in a deportation case, in the
Gates case, where I was counsel for Mr. Michael Gates, and in that
testimony he swore that he did not know whether or not I was a
Communist.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not Mr. Thomas has
just perjured himself when he said that he knew you as a Communist
while he was an undercover agent in the FBI.
Mr. Levitan. Does this connnittee expect me to risk my professional
reputation, and my standing at the bar, on the basis of testimony of
a man who repeatedly for $35 a day is a Government witness?
Mr. Arens. I suggest the witness be ordered and directed to answer
the principal outstanding question.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Levitan. I decline to answer under the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Now, you are talking about youi* reputation as a
lawyer. I know of no better way to remove the cloud that has been
over you for a long while than by here and now, under oath, saying
that you were not a Communist.
Mr. Levitan. I will remove that cloud, sir, at the proper time and
place, before a committee of my peers.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
Avere sworn in as an attorney and took an oath to support and defend
the Constitution of the United States?
(Witness conferred his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. Further, sir, in view of my statement as to Mr.
Thomas' testimony in the Michael Gates deportation case, I ask leave
to have my attorney cross examine him.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Levitan. I didn't hear the question.
3Ir. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
were admitted as a lawyer, and took an oath to support and defend
the Constitution of the United States?
Mr. LE\^TAN. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Wlien was that ?
Mr. Le^tan. I told you ; October of 1935.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time a member of the Communist
Party while you were a licensed lawyer to practice before the courts
in Pennsylvania?
Mr. Levitan. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
given before, and 1 respectfully ask leave to cross-examine Mr.
Thomas.
6352 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Areks. You have asked that three times now, and it has been
declined each time.
Mr. Levitan. I say that common decency and fairness requires that
my counsel be ^iven the opportunity.
The Chairman. The only "common decency and fairness" question
is whether or not you are goinsf to assist your Government in its at-
tempts to prevent from happening- here what has happened in many
other countries of the world.
Mr. Levitan. I have and I will. I support this Government, and
I will in every way.
The Chairman. Why don't you answer these questions then?
Mr. Levitan. You wish me to risk my reputation and my profes-
sional career on the basis of testimony of a $35-a-da3^ witness, who
has again and again acted as a witness.
Mr. Arens. "VATiy don't you stand up like a red-blooded American
and deny you have ever been a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Le^tetan. I have answered that question.
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN THOMAS— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, tell us the circumstances under which
you knew this witness as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Thomas. I attended several closed meetings of the Communist
Party in Philadelphia, at which time Harry Levitan was present.
Mr. Levitan. When I asked you those questions at the Gates case,
you didn't so state.
The Chairman. Never mind.
Mr. Arens. During what period of time were these closed meetings
at which you were in attendance with Mr. Levitan ?
Mr. Thomas. From 1946 up to 1951.
TESTIMONY OF A. HARRY LEVITAN— Resumed
Mr. Levitan. I have the greatest respect for this committee, and I
do not mean to be impudent, but when charges of this nature are made
by an individual whose business it is for pay to inform
The Chairman. No ; Mr. Thomas is a good American, and if you
were half the American that he is you would answer these questions.
Mr. Levitan. I have no doubt that I am, sir, 'and I hope to convince
3^ou, sir.
The Chairman. You talk about respecting this committee, and a
moment ago when you said that you were going to have this issue of
your standing tried before a committee of your peers, it didn't go
unnoticed.
Mr. Levitan. The great privilege which I have been given is sub-
ject to that.
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment. In view of his attack on this witness,
I have a question, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask. When the wit-
ness here said that he had attended closed Communist Party meetings
with you, was he telling the truth or was he lying?
Mr. Levitan. I say to you that he did not so state when he attacked
me while I was conducting a deportation hearing.
The Chairman. That is not responsive.
Mr. Scherer. My question is. When this man said that he attended
closed Communist Party meetings with you, as he stated just a few
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6353
minutes ago under oath, was he telling the truth or was he lying? If
you say that he is not telling the truth, I will ask that your testimony
and his testimony be referred to the Department of Justice.
Mr. Levitax. Precisely.
The Chairman. Then answer the question.
Mr. Levitax, I decline to answer that question for the reason which
has been given.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Levitan, in February of 1953, did you attend
and participate in a conference to repeal the Walter-McCarran Immi-
gration Act held in the Hotel Sylvania?
Mr. Levitax. I think that I did. I am not sure now.
Mr. Arex'S. That is in Philadelphia, by the way, and I lay before
you a document which is "A Call for Action — Conference to Repeal
Walter-McCarran Immigration Act." This conference was to be
held, according to this document, in Philadelphia, Pa. (February 8,
1953) , for the purpose of soliciting people to write their Congressmen ;
and get organizations going in the various communities, and elect dele-
gates to conference, write to Conference Sponsoring Committee, and
other activities, all designed to oppose the Walter-McCarran Immi-
gration Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit Xo. 198a-c,*' see appendix, pp. 7447-
7449.)
Kindly look at that exhibit, and tell us whether or not that refreshes
your recollection with regard to any of your participations in that
movement ^
Mr. Levitax. No; I am not sure, but I think that I spoke agaiust
the Walter-McCarran Act at this conference ; yes, and I think that I
did. I want to make it understood that I speak against many of the
provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act, and I do not take the position
that everything about the Walter-McCarran Act is a bad thing.
Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
made tliis speech ?
Mr. Le\ttax. Oh, please.
Mr. Arexs. Will you please tell us ?
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer that question for the reason given.
Mr. Arexs. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you were a member of the Communist Party when you
partici|)ated in this conference on February 8, 1953.
Mr. LE^^TAX. I put it to you as a fact that you have no evidence in
your files so indicating.
The CiiAiRMAX. What was the date ?
Mr. Arens. 1953.
The Chairman. The files are replete with evidence that in 1953
you were a Communist.
Mr. Levitan. May I see that, sir?
Mr. Chairman. No, that is our file. Is the information we
have correct ?
Mr. Lemtan. May I respectfully call your attention to the fact of
one case when a member of this committee made the same statement
and subsequently a letter was sent out by this committee saying it was
not the case.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not this information
is correct?
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer for the reasons stated.
The Chairman. Proceed.
6354 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Xow, I invite your attention, if you please, sir, to a
document which is a photostatic copy of an article in the Com-
munist Daily Worker of February 25, 1953, page 4, which con-
tains a letter to the editor from Harriet Barron, administrative sec-
I'etary of the American (^onmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
If you will read this letter you will observe that Harr}- Levitan
is identihed in this letter as one of tlie speakers at a confei-ence held
in Philadelphia.
Kindly look at that and see if that confirms your recollection?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 199," see appendix, p. 7450.)
Mr. LE^^:TAN. You mean about tiiis conference ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. LE\aTAN. I told 3'ou I probably spoke against the Walter-
McCarran Act at that meeting.
Mr. Arens. See if this helps you remove the probabilities, and
develop in your mind any degi^ee of certainty ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't see how this can help me. If someone else
writes a letter about a conference, and says that I spoke there, that
may or may not be the case. I have told you that I probably spoke
there.
Mr. Arens. Did you at that conference, make a speech in which
you said that if anyone has any problems, deportation problems,
they should take it up either with you or with Rotenberg?
Mr. Levitan. I did not, to my best recollection, sir. I have never
publicl}^ suggested to people that they come to me as an attorney.
1 have been an immigration and nationality lawyer for about 10 years,
but I don't go around telling everybody publicly to have me as their
lawyer. And I am sure I didn't do it there.
Mr. Arens. Now, please tell this coinmittee whether or not you are
one of the sponsors or were one of the sponsors of the American League
for Peace and Democracy in Philadelphia?
Mr. Levitan. I am not sure of that.
Mr. Arens. Well, let me lay before you a letterhead which might
help refresh your recollection.
Mr. LE\TrAN. I know that I am listed as a sponsor of that organi-
zation. But I do not honestly remember and if I did remember I
would tell you. But I don't honestly remember whether I was a
sponsor by my own permission of that organization.
Mr. Arens. Are you finished now ?
Mr. Levitan. I am finished.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document on the letterhead of the
American League for Peace and Democracy, which is a photostatic
copy of a letter — dated February 3, 1939 — from a person by the name
of Edna, addressed to a Miss Elenor [Eleanor] Fowler of the Amer-
ican League for Peace and Democracy, on which letterhead among
other persons listed as sponsors, is A. Harry Levitan, Esquire. Please
look at that and see whether or not that refreshes your recollection
with reference to any participation or official capacity you had with
that organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 200," see appendix, p. 7451.)
Mr. Levitan. This letter is dated February 3, 1939. I have al-
ready told you that I have no recollection. In other words, I wish
to make it clear that I have heard from other sources that my name
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6355
was listed as a sponsor of this organization, but I have no recollec-
tion as to ^vhether or not I authorized the use of mj'^ name as a
sponsor. If I had, I would tell you. Why don't you ask nie why
I am opposed to the Walter-McCarran Act, and what ought to be
done about it? I am an expert in that field.
The Chairman. You are very modest about it.
Mr. FoRER. He is an expert.
Mr. Arens. May I ask you if you ever took any steps when you
h.eard of being connected with the American League for Peace and
Democracy to cause your name to be removed from the letterhead
of this organization when it was cited as a Communist front?
Mr. Levitan. You know very well, Mr. Arens, that the Supreme
Court of the United States has held that the Attorney General has
no power without a hearing, notice, and an opportunity to defend,
to cite any organization as a Communist-front organization. You
know that, Mr. Arens, as a lawyer. So don't so state to me.
Mr. Arens. You know it has been cited by the Committee on Un-
American Activities on the basis of hearings, and we have had a
number of Communists before us.
Mr. Levitan. I greatly respect the committee — please let me an-
swer this in my oAvn way. There is nothing in the law which says
that this committee has the right to list an organization as an un-
American organization, and I know it does. But with all due respect
to this committee, the Constitution of the United States, as interpreted
by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of /. W. 0. v.
McGrath, decided in 341 United States, that the listing of an
organ ization
The Chairman. Never mind ; we know what the law is.
Mr. Arens. Would you answer the question? The question doesn't
have anything to do with all of this recitation of the Commie line.
Mr. Levitan. Sir, I am not speaking the Commie line. I am speak-
ing what my understanding of the law of this country is.
Mr. Arens. Now, please answer the question. The question is, and
has been for the last 5 minutes, did you take any steps to cause your
name to be removed from this letterhead of the American League for
Peace and Democracy ?
Mr. Levitan. This organization as far as I can know, and this is
1939, as far as I know went out of existence somewhere around 1944
or 1945. I could certainly not do anything after 1945 or 1946 to cause
my name to be removed from a letterhead in 1939. The organization
was out of existence.
The Chairman. Did you know Edna Richter?
Mr. Levitan. Who was Edna Richter, sir?
The Chairman. The executive secretary of the American League
for Peace and Democracy.
Mr. LEvrTAN. In 1939? Is that the date of that letter?
The Chair]vian. Yes.
Mr. Levitan. I have no recollection of that name, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Harry Block ?
^Ir. Levitan. Harry Block ?
The Chairman. Louise L. Beachboard?
6356 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Levi TAX. Louise L. Beachboarcl, I tliink that I recall tliat name.
The Chairman. Rose L. Bloom?
Mr. Levitan. Sir, you are referring to names in 1939, sir.
The Chairman. I am merely asking you if you know them ?
Mr. Levitan. I have no recollection of such names, sir, and if I did
I would tell you.
The Chairman. Then the answer is "Xo"?
Mr. Levitan. The answer is, "I have no recollection."
The Chairman. Do you know Mildred Fairchild?
Mr. Levitan. I think she was a very prominent person in Phila-
delphia.
The Chairman. Do you know Mildred Fairchild ?
Mr. Levitan. Not personally, just by hearsay and reputation.
The Chairman. Do you know Reverend Haslam ?
Mr. Levitan. I have heard of Reverend Ilaslam, but I cannot say
I know him.
Mr. Arens. Were you counsel to the Progressive Party of Pennsyl-
vania in 1949?
Mr. Levitan. I was counsel for the Progressive Party of the State
of Pennsylvania in 1948, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you also counsel in 1949 ?
Mr. Levitan. In 1949 ? After the election, didn't the Progressive
Party disband pretty soon after the election ^ I may have been for
a periocl in 1949 advising them as to certain legal problems ; yes. Yes ;
I think so.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Alexander Wright ?
Mr. Levitan. Alex Wright?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Levitan. I think Alex Wright was connected with the Pro-
gressive Party at one time, and I didn't know him too well, but I know
he was connected with the Progressive Party ; yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you represent the Communist Party in a threatened
action against the Broadwood Hotel in Philadelphia in 1949 ?
Mr. FoRER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. Now he is asking a law^yer
what clients he represented. What is wrong with that ? Suppose he
did?
The Chairman. I don't know what Mr. Arens is leading up to, and
I am sure it is proper and this is a preliminary question, and no harm
can be done by asking a question.
Mr. FoRER. I don't think it is right to ask such a question.
Mr. Arens. As counsel knows, the Communist Party is careful in
the selection of their attorneys.
Mr. FoRER. You know I have represented the Communist Party.
Mr. Levitan. I am going to tell you who I represented because it
is a matter of public record.
Mr. Arens. I will ask vou to look at a copy of the Communist Daily
Worker of March 29, 1949 (p. 11 ) .
Mr. Levitan. Why don't you let me answer the question ?
The Chairman. Wait until a question is asked. Ask the question,
Mr. Arens.
Mr. Levitan. He asked if I represented the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. In the Daily Worker of that date there is an article
with reference to an action instituted by certain attorneys witli refer-
ence to the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6357
Mr, Levitan, I have been counsel for the Connnunist Party on
various occasions.
Mr. Arens. Xow, I want to ask you the succeeding question : Were
you a Communist when 3^ou represented the Connnunist Party in
March of 1949 ?
Mr. IjEvitan. I have refused to answer that question for the reason
that I have stated.
The Chairman. You haven't been asked that question.
Mr. LE\^TAN. I was asked it before.
The Chairman. You were not.
Mr. Levitan. May I tell you about that case ?
Mr. Arens. I would like to read this article in the record to see if
your recollection is refreshed :
Philadelphia, IMarch 28. — The Eastern Peimsyhaiiia Communist Party an-
nounced yesterday that it is fighting the attempt by the Broadwood Hotel to
void a contract for hall where a peace rally is scheduled.
Plans for the meeting are being published nevertheless, Phil Bart, Eastern
Pennsylvania Communist chairman declared. Legal action is being considered
against the Broadwood Hotel. Attorneys Saul Waldman and Harry Levitan
have been retained to represent the party.
Do you recall that action by you on behalf of the Communist Party
and its peace moves and its attempts to get a hall to hold a rally?
Mr. Levitan. It is a constitutional right for the Communist Party
to try to hold a public meeting. I support that right unqualifiedly.
Mr. Arens, Now, please answer the question.
Mr. Levitan. As a lawyer and as a citizen, when the Communist
Party came to me and said, would I be their lawyer so that they could
have a public lawful meeting for which they had a contract, I said,
"yes."
Mr. Arens. Tell the committee who in the Communist Party came
to you and said that ?
Mr. Levitan. Said what ?
Mr. Arens. What you just said they said.
Mr. Levitan. I said I said it.
Mr. Arens. Who of the Communist Party contacted you that you
are talking about ?
Mr. Levitan. I said I said it.
Mr. Arens. The record shows it.
The Chairman. Wait a minute, and we will find out. Who was it
that came to you to retain you ?
Mr. Levitan. When was this, now ?
Mr. Arens. In 1949.
Mr. Levitan. I don't know. I assume it was one of the officials of
the Communist Party.
Mr. xYrens. Who were they at that time ?
Mr. Levitan. Believe me, I don't remember, in 1949. Do you have
anv information ?
Mr. Arens. Was it Phil Bart? He was p]astern Pennsylvania
Communist chairman.
Mr. Levitan. It may have been him.
Mr. Arens. How long did you know Phil Bart ?
Mr. Levitan. I knew Phil Bart as a client for, I think, a few years.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him in any other capacity ?
Mr. Levitan. I knew him as a client.
85.^33— 57— pt. 1 15
6358 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Did you know hiin in any other capacity?
Mv. Levitan. The answer to that I have already answered.
Mr. Arens. Tell the committee again.
Mr. Moulder. Counsel has referred to the Communist Party and it
is not clear in my mind. Is that the Communist Party of Philadelphia ?
Mr. Levitan. The Communist Party, the section of it or the part of
it that is in Philadelphia. They wanted to have a public meeting and
they had a contract.
The Chairman. We understand that.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee if you have known Phil Bart in any
capacity other than as a client?
Mr. Levitan. Phil Bart? I do not believe that I have.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in any closed party meetings with
him?
Mr. Levitan. Let me see now.
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer that for the reason given before.
Mr. Arens. What reason is that ?
Mr. Levitan. Because of the privilege not to be a witness against
myself. That is under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are invoking the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Levitan. Yes.
The Chairman. I would like to ask you a question about these people
who retained you. Were any of them the people Avho were convicted
in Philadelphia under the Smith trial cases ?
Mr. Levitan. You know I didn't represent any of them in the Smith
Act prosecution.
The Chairman. I am asking you whether any of them were the
same?
Mr. Levitan. Let me see. Believe me, Mr. Walter, I don't know.
I wish that I did.
The Chairman. Actually, those people were convicted on the testi-
mony of Mr. Thomas, were they not?
Mr. FoRER, That is not fair.
Mr. Chairman. Just keep quiet. One of these days you are going
to have an opportunity to testify.
Mr. FoRER. I don't think you should threaten me while I am here
as counsel.
Mr. Levitan. ^Irj I discuss why I am opposed to the Walter-
McCarran Act ?
The Chairman. I think I know your reason.
Mr. Levitan. Why don't you let me tell you ?
Mr. Arens. First, tell us if you have been a Communist, and then
we will get into what you and others of your type happen to think
about tlie act.
Mr. Levitan. I happen to feel that a citizen of the United States
has a right to oppose the Walter-McCarran Act even if he happens
to be a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Of course he does, and the Congress has a right to
expose Avhat the Communists are doing to undertake to destroy anti-
Communist legislation, and you know it. Now, I invite your atten-
tion to a photostatic copy of the Communist Daily Worker of August 3.
1950 (p. 3). I lay this before you now. It indicates that you rep-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6359
r^ented the Civil Rights Congi-ess in a certain proceedings. That
is described by the Comnnmist press as "A police frameup."
(Docnment'marked ''Exhibit No. 201," see appendix, p. 7452.)
Mr. Levitak. 650 people came before President Eisenhower's Com-
mission on Immigration and Naturalization and most of them were
opposed to this act.
The Chairman. You mean Truman's Commission. You don't
mean Eisenhower's Commission.
Mr. LE\aTAX. The President's Connnission on Innnigration and
Naturalization.
The Chairman. Let me tell you who they were. Ninety percent
of tliem were under orders of dejjortation.
Mr. Levitak. It can't be. I liave their names here.
The Chairman. Never mind. Vfe don't want to hear from you.
"We will hear from you at the proper time.
Mr. Arens. Might I invite your attention now to this exhibit that I
liave been describing in the course of j'^our last diatribe. It is the
Communist Daily "Worker of August 1050, with reference to Mr. Harry
Levitan representing the Civil Rights Congress in a proceeding of
what is described in the Communist press here as "A police frameup.''
Do you have a recollection of representing them?
Ml'. Levitan. A police frameup ?
Mr. Arens. It refers to the Civil Rights Congress proceeding in
1950.
Mr. Levitan. Mr. Arens, if j^^our right to speak and say what you
wanted to was abridged, I would represent you, too, even though I
disaoree with 3'ou.
]Nlr. Arens. Kindly answer the question of whether or not you
represented the Civil Rights Congress in that proceeding.
Mr. Levitan. In 1950 i You mean this is a case Avhere two people
were arrested and held under $20,000 bail and they went to a court
and I got a Avrit of liabeas corpus and they were free? It was held
that their arrest was illegal.
Mr. iVbens. Please tell us who in the Civil Rights Congress en-
gaged you for that activity ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir. thank you.
Mr. Leattan. First of all, I don't recall wliether the Civil Rights
Congress engaged me, and if so, I don't recall who it was. My rec-
ollection, sir, is that these two people engaged me personally, and
that is my recollection.
Mr. Arens. "Well, the Communist press said you were engaged by
a re])resentative of the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Le\t[tan. I represent people who are charged with the com-
mission of crime, and I do not ask them Avhethei- they are Commu-
nists or Fascists or Republicans or Democrats.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. "Witness, I invite your attention to a con-
ference under the auspices of the Emergency Civil Libei'ties Com-
mittee which was held in Philadelphia, on June 11, 1955.
Mr. Leattan. Emergency Civil Libeities Committee?
Mr. Arens. Yes, and the title to this, according to the brochure here
is, 'Tlebirth of Freedom Conference." That is a verv laudable oh-
6360 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
jective, the "Rebirth of Freedom." Amonji: those who are to par-
ticipate and address the conference is our old friend Prof. Leonard
Boudin, Dr. Otto Natlian, and I see your name here, Harry Levitan.
Do you have a recollection of participating in a conference of the
Emergency Civil Liberties Committee in Philadelphia in 1955 ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 202," see appendix, p. 7453.)
Mr. Levitan. I don't, but please let me refresh my recollection and
I will tell you if I did.
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mr. Le\^tan. Oh, yes, I spoke on denaturalization and deportation.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall who invited you to speak ?
Mr. Levitan. I think this committee.
Mr. Arens. Who on the committee ?
Mr. Levitan. I believe I don't know. I got a letter.
Mr. Arens. From whom, do you recall ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't know, from the committee and they said that
they are discussing the denaturalization and deportation features of
the act, and would T as an attorney come and discuss them, and I
came there and I discussed them as I saw them and as the President's
Commission on Immigration and Naturalization saw it, and as every
important Law Review article in the United States which I have read
sees it.
Mr. Arens. And were you a member of the Communist Party when
you made this address ?
Mr. Le\^tan. I was not.
Mr. Arens. That was in June of 1955, now remember.
Mr. Levitan. I was not.
Mr. Arens. '\'^nio was it who spoke on informers as a means of
suppression. Do you recall ?
Mr. Levitan. I do not recall and will you permit me to refresh my
recollection? This was a public meeting, and very well attended.
Mr. Arens. Was I. F. Stone a participant ? Who gave the address
on informers as a means of suppression ?
Mr. Leattan. Well, it says here that Mr. Frank Donner, who I un-
derstand is a member of the New York bar, but please believe me I
don't recall.
Mr. Arens. He has been identified as a Communist has he not, by
live witnesses before a congressional committee under oath ?
Mr. Levitan. What did Mr. Donner say about it ?
Mr. Arens. I'm just asking you. He took the fifth amendment, of
course.
Mr. Levitan. Well, the fact that someone identifies a lawyer as a
member of the Communist Party, in my opinion in view of my per-
sonal experience, does not prove that lawyer to be a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. SciiERER. l>ut when the lawyer like you had an opportunity
today to deny it and doesn't deny it, it is conclusive in my mind that
the person is telling the truth.
Mr. Arkns. Who was moderator of this particular session for the
Rebirth of Freedom?
Mr. Levttan. It says here Mr. I. F. Stone.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Mr. I. F. Stone ?
Mr. Levitan. I cannot say that he is a friend of mine, but I do
know that he writes a paper which I read.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6361
Mr. Arens. And he was at one time writer for the Communist Daily
Worker, was he not ?
Mr. Levitan. I have no knowledge of that. I know he was a writer
for Compass, and for P.M., which I understand is an anti-, or was
an anti-Conmiunist newspaper.
Mr. Arens. Now, j'ou recall this morning we talked with Mr. Roten-
berg about this celebration held for you ?
Mr. Leattan. It was excellent, and there were a thousand people
there.
Mr. Arens. And under whose auspices was that celebration held?
Mr, Levitan. I think it was under the auspices of the Philadelphia
Committee to Defend the Foreign Born, and it was for me. They
invited anybody in Philadelphia who wanted to come, in order to,
I suppose you call it, "honor me" because of my long history of legal
work in the field of civil liberties, naturalization and deportation, and
civil rights. I have done this work for almost 20 years.
Mr. Arens. We understand. Were you identified
Mr. LEvrTAN. I think I have upheld the American democratic sys-
tem and the laws of this country to the best of my ability in so doing.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of an organization dedicated
to the overthrow of the Government of the United States by force and
violence?
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Levitan. Not to my knowledge. I could not be a member of
such an organization because I am opposed to any organization which
has as its purpose the overthrow of the Government by force and
violence.
Mr. Arens. Then are you opposed to the tenets and principles of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Levitan. What are the tenets and principles of the Communist
Party, sir?
Mr. Arens. According to the Supreme Court of the United States
and congressional committees, among other things, it is the advocacy
of the overthrow of the Government of the United States by force
and violence. Are you opposed to that ?
Mr. Levitan. I am flatly opposed to that.
Mr. Arens. Then are you opposed to the tenets of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Levitan. If that is the tenets of the Communist Party, I am
flatly and unalterably opposed to them.
Mr. Arens. Then have you been a member of an organization
Mr. Levitan. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a Communist ?
Mr. Le\ttan. I have refused to answer tiiat question because of my
privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born in Philadelphia ?
Mr.^ Levitan. As far as I know, that is not a membership
organization.
Mr. Arens. I beg j'our pardon ?
Mr. Levitan. As far as I know that is not a membership
organization.
Mr. Arens. Have you been active in the organization
Mr. Levitan. No.
6362 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. The Philadelphia Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Levitan. No. I have spoken for them. I spoke — for example,
they had a meeting just last week against certain aspects of the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. And you spoke then ?
Mr. LEvrrAN. I was a speaker, just last week.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline when
you made that speech ?
Mr. Levitan. I was not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any idea why Rotenberg, who was your
client here today, used the name of the Philadelphia Life Insurance
Co. in connection with the reservations for the facilities for this big
session honoring you ?
Mr. Levitan. I was amazed to hear that and I would be surprised if
that were actually the fact.
The Chairman. There is the letter.
Mr. Le\ttan. I don't understand that at all because the Philadelphia
Life Insurance Co. had nothing to do with that celebration.
The Chairman. Absolutely nothing, but the hotel wouldn't rent it to
that kind of croAvd, so he had to get the hall under subterfuge.
Mr. Levitan. May I talk to you about the Walter-McCarran Act,
sir?
The Chairman. No. I know what you will say about it.
Mr. Levitan. Why don't you let me say it ?
The Chairman, liecause I am not interested in what you will say,
because I know what it is.
Mr. Levitan. I have been in the field for 10 years. Why don't you
let me tell you my experience.
Mr. Arens. When you have been appearing for these clients of yours
in the last several years, have you at any time been under Communist
discipline?
Mr. Levitan. What is that again?
Mr. Arens. During all this service you have been commending your-
self for
Mr. Levitan. I have not been commending myself. I have been
telling you what I have been doing. I have refused to answer that
for the reasons I liave given.
Mr. Arens. What happened to the funds that were raised in this
testimonial to honor you in Philadelphia awhile back ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't know. I know that I was given a gift.
Mr. Arens. By the organization ?
Mr. Levitan. I think so, but I don't know what happened to the
funds.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Levitan. Thank you.
The CiiATK^iAN. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Pairis, please ; Nina Parris.
(Off the record.)
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Parris. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6363
TESTIMONY OF MRS. NINA PARRIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
RAYMOND J. BRADLEY
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Parris. Mrs. Nina Parris. 4130 Parkside Avenue, Philadel-
phia.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing: here today, Mrs. Parris, pursuant
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities?
Mrs. Parris. I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Parris. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Bradley. Raymond J. Bradley, 2105 Land Title Building,
Philadelphia, Pa.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Parris, where were you born?
Mrs. Parris. Berlin, Germany.
Mr. Arens. 'WHien did you come to the United States ?
Mrs. Parris. In April of 1937.
Mr. Arens. Were you admitted then for lawful residence?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I was admitted under a quota number.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I have derivative citizenship.
Mr. Arens. Your father or mother was a citizen ?
^Irs. Parris. That is correct.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We understand about derivative citizenship. You are
a derivative citizen?
Mrs. Parris. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. What is your address, Mrs. Parris?
Mrs. Parris. 4130 Parkside Avenue,'Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. Mrs Parris, are you a Communist?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Bradley. I advise you, Mrs. Parris, that you may, if you choose,
claim your privilege under the fifth amendment
The Chairman. When you advise your client, just advise her pri-
vately.
Mrs. Parrts. On the advice of counsel. I decline to answer that
question on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Tmder date of October 1952 a witness by the name of
Thomas Delaney, D-e-l-a-n-e-y, appeared before this committee and
took an oath and stated that he, while a member of the, Communist
Party, knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Thomas Delaney lying
or was he telling the truth?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the fifth amendment and the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Thomas
Delaney?
Mrs. Parris. The same answer and the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever in the Communist Party underground?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
6364 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Parris, according to the Communist Party Daily
Worker of February 1953 (February 25, 1953, p. 4) there is a letter
here indicating that a number of people assembled for a session for the
repeal of the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act in the Hotel Syl-
vania. Please look at that letter. It is a letter addressed to the Daily
Worker from one Harriet Barron. And tell us whether or not you
were in attendance at that meeting.
Mr. Bradley. Do you know what year this was ?
Mr. Arens. 1953.
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You were the official conference reporter for that con-
ference, were you not, the conference which was held at the Hotel
Sylvania in February 1953 for the purpose of developing sentiment
and creating organizations for the destruction of the Walter-McCarran
Act, isn't that correct ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask, Mr. Chairman — Are you a reporter?
Mrs. Parris. A reporter ?
Mr. Bradley. You mean a stenograph reporter, sir ?
Mr. Moulder. I understand counsel referred to you as a reporter.
Is that your professional occupation ?
Mr. Bradley. If the question is, is she a stenographic reporter, she
can answer that.
Mrs. Parris. No, sir ; I am not.
Mr. Arens. Were you the official conference reporter of this con-
ference held in the Hotel Sylvania on February 8, 1953 ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I use the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. AitENS. Have you been identified with the Philadelphia Com-
mittee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act and To Defend Its
Victims ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. What has been your activity legislationwise from the
standpoint of undertaking to affect the course of any legislation
through various organizations?
Mrs. Parris. I don't choose to discuss my political opinions.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harry Levitan, the gentleman who just
left the witness stand ?
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, young lady, that if you told this
committee whether or not you know Harry Levitan, who just left this
witness stand, you would be supplying the information which might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Parris. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in the Communist Party with Harry
Levitan ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6365
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Harry Levitan was at this conference, was he not, in
February 1953, at which you were the official conference reporter?
(The witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Civil Rights
Congress ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Are j^ou acquainted with Jack Zucker?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. And the Labor Youth League ? Are you a member of
the Labor Youth League or have you been a, member of the Labor
Youth League?
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Herman Thomas?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Where were you educated?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I was educated at the Dalton Schools in New York. I
went to the Art Students League in New York City, the Yale Uni-
versity Drama School.
Mr." Arens. When did you complete your education?
Mrs. Parris. I believe it was
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I am now taking some courses at the University of
Pennsylvania.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete this work at Yale?
Mrs. Parris. That was in 1946, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been gainfully employed?
Mrs. Parris. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Arens. Where did you work, just some of the principal em-
ployments, if you please.
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in any gainful employment
concerning which you could tell the committee without disclosing in-
formation that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness conferred witii her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. Call your next witness,
(Off the record.)
Mr. Arens. Ruth Hillsgrove, please.
The Chairman. Raise your right hand, please. Do you swear the
testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROvT.. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Arens.
()366 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF MRS. RUTH E. HILLSGROVE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, A. HARRY LEVITAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and
occupation.
jNIrs. HiLLSGR(j^-E. I am Ruth E. Hillsgrove. I live at 408 School
Street, Watertown, Mass., and 1 vrork in an office.
The Chairman. Watertov;n 't
Mrs. HiLi.SGRovE. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ^
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. HiLLSGRovE. Yes.
Mr. Arens, Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself for the
record?
Mr. LE^^TAN. I am A. Harry Levitan, a member of the Philadelphia
bar, with offices at 1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia, Pa.
Mr. Arens. A^^iat is your occupation, ma'am?
JNIrs. Hillsgroa'e. I work in an office.
Mr. Arens. AYhat office do you work in ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I decline to answer. I invoke the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee the
office in which you work you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Arens. ^Vliere is the office located ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I invoke the privilege.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mrs. Hillsgroat:. I invoke the fifth amendment, the privilege to
decline.
Mr. Arens. Where were you Avhen you were served with your
subpena ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I Avas at home.
Mr. Arens. What time of day was it you were served?
Mi-s. Hiijlsgroat:. 7 : 30 in the morning, or thereabouts.
jNIr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present em-
ployment concerning which you can't tell this committee without giv-
ing information that could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
INIrs. Hillsgroat:. Some time.
Mr. Arens. As much as a j'ear ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Yes.
Mr. Arens. As much as 2 years?
IMrs. HiLLSGROVE. I decline.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferi-ed with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. At the present time, I probably have been em-
plo3'ed about — I am not sui-e, less than (5 months.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SI■^^'ERSIOX 6367
Mr, Arens. What "u-as your employment immediately prior to this
present employment ?
Mrs. IIiixsGROVE. Northeastern Distributors, Cambridge, Mass.
Mr. Arens. How long were you emplo5"ed there ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. About a year I think.
Mr. Moulder. What type of work do you do ?
Mrs. HILLSGR0^'E. Office work, general office work.
JNIr. Arens. Are you now, or have you been, connected with the New
England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. HILLSGRO^^',. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of James W. Glatis ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel).
JMrs. Hillsgroat:. I do not think so.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of James Glatis?
Mrs. HiLLSGROMi:. No ; I do not think I know him at all.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Herbert Philbrick ?
Mrs. HiLLsGR0\TE. Privilege. I don't know him.
Mr. Arens. Then why did you say "privilege"?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I really — p-ardon me.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hn.LSGROvE. As far as Philbrick is concerned, to the best of
my knowledge, I do not know him.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Nathaniel Mills?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Dave Rosenberg ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. The fact is, ma'am, that Dave Rosenberg, secretary of
the Communist Party, and Nathaniel Mills and you organized the
New England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; isn't that
true ? If it isn't, deny it while you are under oath.
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document which is a re-
production of the Tvamp, the official publication of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born for June-July 1950. I
invite your attention to an article here with reference to the New
England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look
at tliis article and tell us whether or not j^ou are, or liave been, iden-
tified with the New England Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
(See exhibit No. 15, appendix, p. 7112.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROATi. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. I understand the witness, in response to your ques-
tion, took the fifth amendment and declined to answer, claiming the
privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of
an application for a post office box dated March 2»3, 1953. The
post office box for the New England Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. This application for this post office box is signed by
Ruth E. Hillsgrove. Please look at it and tell us whether or not that
is your signature.
"(Document marked "Exhibit No. 20.3," see appendix, p. 7454.)
6368 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. HnxsGROvE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens, Do you honestly feel that if, while you are under oath
here, you told this committee whether or not that is your signature,
in applying for the post oflice box for the New England Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, you would be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. It might have such a tendency.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly sign your name to this pay voucher,
"which is the document pursuant to which you will receive your witness
fee and travel allowance?
JNIrs. HiLLSGROVE. May I quote?
Mr. Levitan. Yes, you may quote.
Mrs. HiLLSGR0\T5. ITncler article 15
The Chairman. We will withdraw the request and let the record
show that after the voucher has been signed it will be incorporated as
a part of the record.
Mr. Arens. The chairman has stated that after you do sign it after
these immediate proceedings, your signature will be incorporated in
the record and we will be able to compare the signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 204," see appendix, p. 7455.)
]\Ia'am, you were succeeded as an official of the New England Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born b}^ Olive Sutton ; were you not?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Olive Sutton ?
Mrs, HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the records
of the Post Office Department of September 23, 1954, in which there
is a notation that the Post Office has been advised that Olive Sutton
was to take over the custody of the post office box for the New England
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Look at that and see if
it refreshes your recollection as to any arrangements you may have
had with Olive Sutton.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 205," see appendix, p. 7456.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document, which is a reproduction of
a page of the Lamp — page 3, October-November issue, 1951 — of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, the article
here entitled "Boston To Expand Its Committee Work."
Shortly after Thanksgiving a special meeting will be held in Boston to plan
activity around local cases. Delegates will be elected to attend the 20th anni-
versary convention.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you were
a participant in that work of the committee and the convention.
(See exhibit No. 20, appendix, p. 7119.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. May I ask who types these dates in here at tlie top
of the page ?
Mr. Arens. A member of the staff.
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Why isn't the date on this copy ?
Mr. Arens. It is only on the cover, ma'am.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6369
The Chairman. Date or no date, fifth amendment. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to a document: Stanleys
Nowak speaks on the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act^ — former
State senator, leader of the Polish-American people — all held in Bos-
ton under the auspices of the New England Committee for Protection
of Foreigii Born.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you were
a participant in arranging this affair where Stanley Nowak made
his address.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 206," see appendix, p. 7457.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth.
Mr. Arens. What is the address of your home ?
Mrs. Hillsgrove. I just gave it, 408 School Street.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hillsgrg^t:. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, 1 respectfully suggest the witness be
oiclered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. LE\TrAN. May I see that form, please ?
Mr. Arens. I respectf ull}^ suggested that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer whether or not she ever lived at 130 Myrtle Street.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. Did you
ever live at 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hillsgrove. May I see that first myself ?
Mr. Arens. Can't you just tell this committee whether or not you
ever lived at 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hillsgroat:. I didn't see it.
The Chairman. Did you ever live at 130 Myrtle Street ?
(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)
Mrs. Hillsgrove. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you live in apartment No. 7 at 130 Myrtle Street?
Mrs. HiLLSGROMi. I Can't recall. It may have been 7.
Mr. Arens. Do you think it might be a coincidence only that this
meeting addressed by Stanley Nowak under the auspices of the New
England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, according to this
document, was held at 130 Myrtle Street?
Mrs. HiLLSGR0\'E. May I see that, sir ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hillsgrove. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you any comments or observations as to the
coincidence that the New England Committee for Pi-otection of For-
eign Born would have a session for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran
Act, with Stanlev Nowak addressing it, at the same address where
you lived, 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hii.lsgroat.. May I just look at that again, please ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. Just please tell us if there seems to be
only a coincidence or if there is something tliat might be of some
significance.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]\rr. LEvriAx. Can you please repeat tlie (juestion ?
(Question read.)
Mi-s. Hillsgro\te. The facts are in the statement right here. May
I read this?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
6370 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. nn.LscuiovE. "Entertainment, Friday evening, March 13, 8
p. m.*" It doesn't give tiie year. "'Dome Room, Hotel Touraine,
corner Boylston and Tremont Streets, Boston. Admission free.
Auspices NeAv England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,"
and tlie mailing address 130 Mja-tle Street.
Mr. Arens. Let us just get to the specifics. Is there just a coinci-
dence that this leaflet has the Xew England Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born identified as being at 130 Myrtle Street?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Akeks. And that was your home ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Where were you employed in 1953 ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. We have been talking about the New England Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. I would like to invite your
attention to the Massachusetts Committee for the Revision of the
McCarran-Walter Immigration and Naturalization Act. Have you
ever been identified with that organization ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is there any interlocking relationship between the New
England committee-
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why don't you wait until I finish the question?
Any interlocking relationsliip between the New England Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born with which these exhibits identify
you and the Massachusetts Committee for the Revision of the Mc-
Carran-Walter Immigration and Naturalization Act ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Tjook at the letterhead of this organization and tell us
liow many of the people on the Massachusetts Committee for the
Revision of the McCarran-Walter Immigration and Naturalization
Act are personally known to yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 207,'' see appendix, p. 7458.)
Mrs. PIillsgrove. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In December of 1953 there was a conference, according
to this record which we have already made in the last 2 or 3 days, held
in Chicago, 111., a National Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran
Law and Defend Its Victims. Among the people participating in that
conference representing Massachusetts was a woman by the name of
Frances Hood. Do vou know Frances Hood i
(See exhibit V, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I am confused. What did you say ?
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady from Massachusetts by tlie name
of Frances Hood ?
Mrs. Hillsgro\t;. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I re.spectfully suggest tliat will conclude
tlie staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess for .5 nfinutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairman. Tlie committee will be in order.
Call vour next witness.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6371
Mr. Arens. Mike Gates, please come forward.
( No response. )
Mr. Arens. Counsel, is Mr. Gates here ?
Mr. Levitax. He is, sir. May I speak with Mr. Walter on the side
about this matter?
(Off the record.)
Mr. Arens. Frances Gabow, please come forward.
Please remain standino; while the chairman administers an oath.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
^Irs. Gabow. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANCES GABOW, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
A. HARRY LEVITAN
Mr. AnENs. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Gabow. My name is Frances Gabow, and I live at 2119 North
Natrona Street in Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mrs. Gab()w\ Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Gabow\ Yes.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, Counsel.
Mr. Levitan. A, Harry Levitan, 1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia 3.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever had your name changed from some other
name to Gabow?
Mrs. Gap.ow. Yes. We Lad it changed by court order.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat was your name prior to the time it was changed?
Mrs. Gabow. Jaffe, J-a-f-f-e.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. I would like to invoke the first and the fifth amend-
ments, and I would like to quote my reasons why from the Story of
the Constitution, published by the United States Constitution Sesqui-
centennial. House Office Building, Washington, D. C, copyriglUed
July 28, 1937.
The first amendment relating to religion, free speech, right of assembly, and
petition, debars Congress from establishing a religion or prohibiting free exer-
cise of religion or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right
of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government for redress
of grievances.
And on the fifth amendment I quote :
The fifth amendment protects the citizens against double jeopardy, self-
incrimination, deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process of
law
The Chairman. What did you say, self what ?
Mrs. Gabow. This says; I am (juotiiig:
Self-incrimination, deprivation
The Chairman. What aftei- "self-incrimination"?
Mrs. Gabow. Pardon?
6372 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. After "self-incrimination," what does it say ?
Mre. Gabow (reading) :
Deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, aud loss
of property taken for public use.
Mr. Arens. Yon are not reading the Constitution. You are read-
ing someone's interpretation; is that correct?
Mrs. Gabow. I am reading from the Story of the Constitution,
issued by the United States Constitutional Sesquicentennial Conmiis-
sion, published by Sol Bloom at the House Office Building, AVashing-
ton, D. C, and copyrighted in 1937, July 28.
Mv. Arkns. Do you know a person by the name of Herman Thomas?
Mrs. Gabow. Privilege.
Mr. Arens. "\\niat do you mean, privilege?
Mrs. Gabow. Under the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. Do you mean by that that you refuse to answer the
question ?
Mrs. Gabow. Yes.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, would you kindly resume the witness
stand for just a minute ?
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN THOMAS— Resumed
Mr. Arens. You were sworn earlier today, Avere you not, Mr.
Thomas ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, durhig the course of your membership in
the Communist Part}^, as an undercover agent for j'our Government,
serving the Federal Bureau of Investigation, did j'ou have occasion
to know a person by the name of Frances Gabow, G-a-b-o-w?
JNIr. Thomas. I knew a person by the name of Frances while I was
a member of the Communist Party working for the United States
Government.
Mr. Arens. Did you know that person as a Communist?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; I did.
^Ir. Arens. Do you see that person, whom you knew as Frances, in
the hearing room today ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir. She is seated to my right.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Just remain seated for just a moment, please, Mr. Thomas, until we
give JNIrs. Gabow an opportunity to look you in the face and be con-
fronted Avith you and deny if she cares to do so.
Mrs. Gabow, you just heard the testimony of Mr. Thomas, as given
uudei" oath, when he identified you as a person known by him to have
been a (^/ommunist. Was he lying or telling the truth?
Mrs. Gabow. My privilege under the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, how did you know, under what circum-
stances did you know, this lady seated to your right as a Communist?
Mr. TiroMAS. I had attended seA^ernl closed meetings of the Com-
munist Party with Frances, but one of the latest occasions I had was
after the party went underground in September of 1950 when I met
her and another member of the Conununist Party at an affair at Nature
Friends Camp near ^'alley, Pa., where I made arrangements with
I
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6373
the otlier person to pick up Communist Party literature in Phila-
delphia, inasmuch as they weren't using the mails.
I made arrangements to meet Frances on Market Street, near
Fourth and Market, at the Horn & Hardart Restaurant. I was there
on time and met her. and she didn't have the literature. She said she
was afraid that she was being followed. I then took her in my car
back to, 1 think it is Spruce and Broad, where she went up to the
Communist Party headquarters, 250 South Broad, and brought down
the Communist JParty literature for me to take back to the Lehigh
Valley section of the Communist Party.
Mr! Arens. Was this lady, seated next to you, a member of the
Communist Party underground in 1950 ^
Mr. Thomas. I don't know if she was a member of the Communist
Party underground, but she was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Gabow, do you care to deny this testimony
while you are under oath ?
Mrs. Gabow. I wish to invoke tlie fifth.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANCES GABOW— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Gabow, I lay before you a couple of photo-
graphs. We have used these photographs in this proceeding before,
and they have been identified previously — one is exhibit No. 162 and
the other is exhibit No. 164. (See appendix, pp. 7389, 7391.) I be-
lieve you will find your picture in them. These are photographs of a
picketing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities when
it was in Philadelphia in 1952. Kindly look at these photographs
and see if you can point out your picture to the committee in this
picketing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Mrs. Gabow. I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Gabow, in 1953 did you ever have occasion
during that year to be in the State of Illinois, the city of Chicago?
Mrs. Gabow\ Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectifully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer tliat question.
The CnAiR:\rAN. You are directed to answer the question whether
or not you liave been in the State of Illinois.
Mr. Levitan. In what year ?
Mr. Arens. In 1953, in Chicago.
Mr. Levitan. Did you mention the month?
Mr. Arens. No ; I didn't.
(The witness conferred with liei- counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is the record clear that she has been ordered and di-
rected to answer that?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Gabow, I have a document in my hand, which
has been identified in this record, of the National Conference to Re-
peal of tlie Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims, in Chicago,,
ill., December 12 and 13, 1953. This is a summary of the proceedings.
The nominating committee chairman, according to this document,
is Mrs. Frances Gabow, of Philadelphia. Look at this document and
tell us whether or not that is a true and accurate description of you
85333— 57— pt. 1 16
6374 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
find your station in that conference. It is about tlie second paragraph
there, ma'tiin.
See exhibit Y, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, ISla'am, I lay before you a mimeographed press
release of a Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and to
Protect the Foreign Born, in Philadelphia. Kindly tell this com-
mittee what you had to do with the preparation of that press release or
with that organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 208," see appendix, p. 7459.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Here is an exhibit I would like to have your special
attention to, if you please. It is a resolution memorializing the
United States Congress with respect to the modification of the
provisions of the National Immigration Act. According to the face
of this document, it was passed by the city council of Philadelphia,
but at the bottom of the document we see it is reprinted as a public
service by the Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and
Protect the Foreign Born, 1001 Chestnut Street, Philadelphia 7, Pa.
Tell us whether or not you have ever seen that document before.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did the Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran
Law and Protect the Foreign Born make representations to the city
council of Philadelphia and undertake to persuade the city council
of Philadelphia to pass this resolution condemning the Walter-Mc-
Carran Immigration Act ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you, or have you ever been, connected with the
Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Act ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In 1948, you were membership director of the student
section of the Communist Party, were you not ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, in January of 1949 you were organ-
izer of section 7, district 3, Communist Party, were you not?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to April Farms in Pennsylvania,
in Bucks County?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is there a place called April Farms ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, you chartered two buses from the
Mertz- White Lines to carry Communist Party members to a big rally
held in 1949 at the AprilFarms, isn't that true?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In September of 1949 you were in attendance at a dis-
trict meeting of the Communist Party, district 3 at Reynolds Hall. in
Philadelphia; were you not?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Dave Davis ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
COMMrNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6375
]Mr. Arexs. Dave Davis in this meeting introduced you, did he
not, and he said, and I quote :
Most of you, I believe and I hope, heard the appeal of Comrade Foster to the
American people for the need for support of the fight for freedom of the 12. Our
party has prepared an answer to this letter and at this time I would like to call
on Frances Gabow, secretary of the Fourth Congressional District of our party,
to read the answer to Comrade Foster.
Ts that a truthful presentation of what happened?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Mrs. Gabow. In Phihidelphia.
Mr. Arens. When^
Mrs. Gabow. In 1920.
Mr. Arens. Where were you educated ?
Mrs. Gabow. I w^ent to primary schools in Pliiladelphia, New York,
and New Jersey, and through high school in New York.
Mr. Arens. And when did you complete your high-school educa
tion i
Mrs. Gabow. I did not complete. I left school to go to work.
Mr. Arens, When did you leave school to go to work, to your best
recollection, the approximate time?
Mrs. Gabow. Probably about 193t) or 1937.
Mr. Arens. What was your first job after you left school to go to
work?
Mrs. Gabow. Clerical woi'k in an office.
Mr. Arens. AYhat office ?
Mrs. Gabow'. I honestly don't remember.
Mr. Arens. What was your next i^rincipal employment?
(The witness conferred wdth her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabov/. I worked on a number of jobs for short periods of
lime. Jobs were a little difficult to get at that time. I took waitress
work, as well as part-time office work, in a number of places. So I
didn't keep any one job for any lengthy period of time.
Mr. Arens. I^t's try it another way. What has been your last prin-
cipal employment ?
Mrs. Gabow. Here again I have been working part-time and have
not
Mr. Arens. Where ?
(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow\ Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. When were you last em])loyed ?
(The witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. Do you mean when did slie last get a job ?
Mr. Arens. When was slie lastem])loyed, yes, sir.
Mr. Levitan. Where did she last get a job ?
Mr. Arens. When was she last employed ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. When. Slie understands, if you don't. When were you
last employed?
Mrs. Gabow. The time, you mean ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, when.
Mrs. Gabow. A month ago.
Mr. Arexs. And where?
6376 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How long were you employed in this place concerning
which you can't tell us without giving information which could be
used in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to this
last employment concerning which you can't tell us ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. I didn't work for a period of time, a long period of
time. I was ill before that.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked in Communist Party head-
quarters in Philadelphia ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
The committee will adjourn subject to call of the chairman.
(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., Wednesday, XoA^ember 14, 1056, the com-
mittee Avas recessed subject to call.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
United States House of Representattv^es,
Subcommittee of the
Committee ox Ux-A:merican Activities.
Youngstown, Ohio.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the United States District Court
Building, Youngstown, Ohio, Hon. Edwin E. WiUis (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Eepresentatives Edwin E. Willis, of
Louisiana, and Harold H. Velde, of Illinois.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; George C. AVil-
liams and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and Richard S, Weil, staff
member.
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will call the first witness of the day.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Elsie Zazrivy. Please come forward, Mrs. Zazrivy,
and remain standing while the chairman administers the oath to you.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Zazrrtt. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ELSIE ZAZRIVY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Zazrivy. My name is Mrs. Elsie Zazrivy.
Mr. Velde. What was the name, again?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Elsie Zazrivy. I live at 4132 Brookside Boulevard,
Cleveland, Ohio. I am an office worker.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Arens. And in what office do you work ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I work at Manning, Maxwell & Moore.
Mr. Arens. And where is that located i
Mrs. Zazrivy. In Cleveland, Ohio.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
6377
G378 COMMtTNlST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Zazrivy. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. My name is Hymen Schlesinger, of Pittsburgh,
Pa. I am a member of the Allegheny County Bar Association and
a member of the various courts, both State and Federal.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Zazrivy
Mr. Schlesinger. May I ask, Mr. Chairman and counsel, I do not
know the procedure. Am I to sit beside the witness?
Mr. Arens. You may sit beside the witness, and, as you probably
know, the sole and exclusive prerogative of yourself as counsel is to
advise the witness as to her constitutional rights.
Mi*s. Zazrivy, the subpena which was served upon you calls for you
to produce certain books and other records, documents, of the Ohio
Conunittee for Protection of Foreign Born ; does it not ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Yes, it does.
Mr. Arens. Are you the custodian of those records, books, and
documents, alluded to in the subpena?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrr'y. It may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. What do you mean?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy, Under the Constitution, I am not required to tes-
tify against myself.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee,
while you were under oath, truthfully whether or not you are the
custodian of the records of the Ohio Conmiittee for Protection of
Foreign Born, you would be supplying information that could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the last question.
Mr. Willis. You are ordered to answer that question.
The question is a test of whether or not you are honestly invoking
the provision of the Constitution to which you refer.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Willis. You are ordered to answer it.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I am invoking the fifth amendment honestly be-
cause I believe that it might incriminate me, and the Constitution
says that I may invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Zazriy\', my associate here this morning, Mr.
Appell,, is laying before you a document which is a reproduction
01 the April-May 1952 issue (p. 3) of The Lamp, the official publication
of the American Coimnittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Willis. What is the name of the issue?
Mr. Arens. The Lamp.
Mr. Willis. L-a-m-p?
COMiMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6379
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
In that page which is reproduced, and which is now before you,
there is an article which we have marked there with respect to the
establishment of an Ohio Provisional Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, and this document shows yourself, Elsie Zazrivy, as
acting secretary.
Kindly look at that document and tell this committee, while you are
under oath, Avhether that is a true and correct representation of your
status in connection with the Ohio Provisional Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. (See exhibit No. 17, appendix, p. 7116.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
]\Irs. Zazrivy. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Appell is going to lay before you a photostatic
copy of the Cleveland Plain Dealer of Monday, February 3, 1941,
page 10, concerning the organization meeting of the Ohio Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Please look at that article and tell us whether or not you possess any
knowledge of this meeting.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 209," see appendix, pp. 7460, 7461.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Now, Mr. Appell is going to lay before you still another
document, Avhich is a reproduction of the Cleveland Plain Dealer of
January 17, 1941 (pp. 1 and 4) and I invite your attention to a story
M-hich is headed "Busch Cites Communist Tinge as Civic Leaders
Ditch 'Foreign-Born Aid'."
In that article, the first paragraph, you read that one Dr. Henry
Miller Busch, professor of Cleveland College, withdrew his support
from the then existing Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born as it Avas formed in 1941 and branded one of the statements of
the committee as being typical of the Daily Worker and organizations
and individuals afliliated with the Communist cause.
Was this description by Dr. Busch true and accurate of the Ohio
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 210," see appendix, pp. 7461,
7462.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In 1949 you were financial secretary or financial direc-
tor of the Cuyahoga County section of the Communist Party; were
you not ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Appell is now going to lay before you a document
which is a reproduction of the February-March 1950 issue of The
Lamp (p. 2), the official publication of the [American] Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. 1 would like to ask you if you were
active in the creation of a city wide council for protection of foreign
born in Cleveland as announced in the issue of The Lamp which is
now before 3'ou ?
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, p. 7102.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
6380 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. WiLi IS. While on tliat subject, Counsel, it is a fact, is not not,
that the [American] Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born
WHS one of rhe oldest communistic outfits in the United States?
Mr. Arens. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Willis. And they usually operate under fancy names that
might appeal to the gullible and the innocent, and that is why they
use that fancy name, the Protection of Foreign Born; is that correct?
Mr. Arens. That is correct ; yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I think it might be a good idea to put
the citation of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born into the record. (See p. 6628 of testhnony.)
Mr. Willis. Do you mean the citation of that committee by the
Department of Justice?
Mr. Arens. And by other Government agencies ; yes, sir.
I miglit also at this point say that the i)rocedure which I am pres-
ently following is to establish, by these documents, the relationship
of this Av itness to the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Siie is under a subpena duces tecum demanding her to produce the
records of that organization. She has invoked the fifth amendment
with reference to any affiliation or connection with that organization,
and if, by the incorporation in our record, we sliow her identity as the
officer in charge of the records of the Ohio Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, she is then under a mandate of the law to produce
the records.
There are an abundance of judicial decisions on that.
The very next document, I believe, will help clarify the status of
the record in that respect.
Mi's. Zazrivy, Mr. Appell will show you a document, a photostatic
reproduction of a mimeographed letter of the Ohio Coimiiittee for
Protection of Foreign Bom, and on this letter there is a signature of
Elsie Zazrivy as secretary of the Ohio Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
1 want you to look at this document and, while you are under oath,
to verify the authenticity of that signature.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 211," see appendix, p. 7463.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will lay before you a pay voucher, which is
necessary for you to sign in order to procure your witness fee here. He
will point to the place where you are to sign. I ask you to affix your
signature to that pay voucher now.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I decline to sign any document that may be used
against me.
ISIr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness shall affix her signature to a pay voucher claiming
witness fees, that part of the voucher bearing her signature be incor-
porated in this record.
Mr. Willis. That is so ordered.
(Witness waived reimbursement of expenses by refusing to sign
voucher. )
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6381
Mr. Arexs. Now, Mr. Chairman, tliis record reflects at the present
time that a person by the name of Elsie Zazriyy is secretary, or was
secretary at the latest date on which we can find documents, of the
Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
We have asked this witness whether or not she is secretary and
custodian of certain records, and she has invoked the protection of
the fiftli amendment. As secretary of the Ohio Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreion l^orn, and as custodian of the records, she is under
a mandate of this committee to produce certain records.
I respectfully suggest, therefore, that this record now reflect an
order, in view"^ of the record that we have thus far established,
against Mrs. Zazrivy that she forthwith produce the records called for
in the subpena duces tecum — records, documents, and books of the
Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. AYiLLis. You are ordered to comply with the demand made by
counsel of this committee pursuant to the subpena duces tecum that
Avas served upon you, as you have acknowledged it was served upon
you.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrtv^y. Without admitting or denying that I have ever been
connected Avith the Ohio Coimnittee for Protection of Foreign Born,
I am now producing these papers in response to the order.
Mr. Arexs. Do you have your subpena with you ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. No, I don't.
Mr. Arexs. The subpena duces tecum which was served upon you,
Mrs. Zazrivy, requires the production of all correspondence between
the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, does it not?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Arens. That is a matter of the record of the committee. Have
you produced now all of the correspondence in your custody and con-
trol between the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Willis. I think the witness should be warned that she is under
oath. We want to be perfectly fair, but at the same time verj'^ firm.
Counsel must realize the significance of this question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I am not now the secretary of the Ohio Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. There is no such committee to my
knowledge, and this is all the material that I could find, and this is
what I understood the subpena to mean.
Mr. Arens. "^^^lere did you find this material?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully sugo^est the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question. She has opened the
door of this inquiry by saying this is all she could find. The natural
sequence of events and questions would be where did she find it.
I respectfully request and suggest that she be ordered and directed
to answer this question.
6382 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Willis. She is so ordered.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I found this in my home.
Mr. Arens. Where in yonr home did you find it?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. This was in the basement of my home.
Mr. Arens. Were there any other documents in the basement of
your home pertaining to the Ohio Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born other than these documents which you have just given to
the Committee on Un-American Activities?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazri\^. Well, I tried to bring whatever the subpena called
for.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question, please. Are there any other
documents pertaining to the Ohio Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born which are in your custody and control at your home, other
than those documents which you have today transferred to the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. There are other leaflets concerning it, of the same
type that I brought here, but I did not believe that thej'^ were what
the committee called for.
Mr. Arens. Is there other correspondence of the Ohio Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born between it a]id the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. Not pertaining to anything in reference to what the
committee called for.
Mr. Arens. Are there any membership lists ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. No ; there are no such lists.
Mr. Arens. How long have these documents been in your liome?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where did you get these documents? By "these docu-
ments," I am alluding to those which you have transferred to the
custody of the committee.
Mrs. Zazrivy. How do you mean ?
Mr. Arens. Where did you get them ? How did they happen to be
in your home?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any financial records?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are there financial records of the Ohio Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born in your home?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6383
Mr. Arexs. Does the snbpena duces tecum call for the production
of financial records of the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Not to my knowledge.
Mr, Arexs. You said a little while ago that the Ohio Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born is no longer in existence; is that
correct ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. That is correct ; to my knowledge.
Mr. Arexs. When did it go out of existence ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. Yes, because you have opened the door. By your
answer a while ago, you said it was no longer in existence. You used
it as a sword, and now you cannot use it as a shield.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment on any past connections
or activities.
Mr. Arexs. "Sir. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this record reflect
the order to this witness to answer the question as to when the Ohio
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born went out of existence.
Mr. Willis. Yes. That is the only pending question, and you are
ordered to answer it.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I don't know the exact date, but it is approximately
a year and a half or 2 years ago.
Mr. Arexs. And who were the officers of that organization when
it went out of existence ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I haven't admitted any connection with the commit-
tee and I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Is there a successor organization ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know whether or not there is a successor organi-
zation to the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Now, I want you to be specific in identification of each
of these documents which you have thus far turned over to the
Committee on Un-American Activities. I have marked the first one
"Exhibit No. 212 a, b".
Exhibit 212 a, b is a call to a Conference to Eepeal the Walter-Mc-
Carran Law and Defend Its Victims, Sunday, March 14, 1954, the
Ukrainian Labor Temple. It is a leaflet issued by the Ohio Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, 5713 Euclid Avenue.
In this leaflet which you have turned over to the committee is listed
Elsie Zazrivy, Z-a-z-r-i-v-y, as secretary. Look at this document and
tell this committee if that is a document which you have produced
from your home and transmitted to this committee pursuant to the
terms of the subpena duces tecum.
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
6384 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question. It is perfectly apparent
that is one of the documents in this envelope she has just handed us.
She has, by her own testimony heretofore, said she is transmitting
documents which she procured from her home pursuant to the terms
of the subpena duces tecum, and any declination on her part now to
identify the particular document as one of the documents in the gross
parcel which she transmitted to us would be purely capricious and
contemptuous.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I have not produced this material voluntarily. I have
produced it at the behest oi the committee.
Mr. Arens. Is that document presently before you which I have
marked — counseFs sole and exclusive right is to advise his client — is
that document which is presently before you, which I have marked
"Exhibit No. 212 a, b," one of the documents which you procured from
your hame and produced before this committee, pursuant to the terms
of the subpena duces tecum ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. ZAZRI^T. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. She has been ordered to answer it already.
(Witness conferred wath counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I have not produced this document volmitarily. I
produced it because of an order of the committee.
Mr. Arens. Produced what?
Mrs. Zazrivy. This document.
Mr. Arens. By "this document," do you mean exhibit 212 a, b?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. If that is the document that 3'ou produced from the
envelope.
Mr. Arens. Wellj is that document presently before you, which I
have marked "Exhibit 212 a, b," one of the documents which you
procured from your home and transmitted to this committee?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazri^t. Something similar to this I brought.
Mr. Arens. Do you recognize that particular document?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. If that is the document that you took from the en-
velope, that is exhibit A. (Exhibit No. 212 a, b.)
Ml-. Arens. I lay before you a document which we are now marking
"Exhibit No. 213." It is a postcard. [Heading :]
"We must have freedom of siieoch, jiress, and religion for all or we may even-
tually have it for none.' * * * Defend the rights of the foreign-born and you
defend your own ! Hear Abner Green, Executive Secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, Monday, May 19, 1205 Superior Avenue.
Look at that card and tell us Avhether or not that is one of the docu-
ments which you found in your home pursuant to the terms of the
subpena duces tecum, and produced before this committee.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. This was produced by order of the committee. I
claim the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6385
Mr. Arens. Is that one that you did produce pursuant to the order
of the committee? That is all t am asking.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mi-s. Zazrivy. It appears to be.
Mr. Arens. Now Mr. Appell is laying before you still a third docu-
ment, which he has marked "Exhibit No. 214 a-d." It is an advance
credential to a Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law, Sun-
day, March 15, 19r);>, the Ukrainian Labor Temple, in Cleveland, under
the auspices of the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
I ask you if this is one of the documents which was produced by you ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the hfth amendment, because I have not pro-
duced this voluntarily, but on order of the comniittee.
Mr. Arens. But did you produce it, irrespective of the nature of
the compulsion ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Zazrivy. It appears to be.
Mr. Arens. And Mr. Appell is now laying before you a document
taken from this bundle that you just handed us, which we are marking
"Exhibit No. 215," which is the letterhead of the Ohio Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, under date of March 6, 1954, with refer-
ence to another conference on repealing the Walter-McCarran Act.
Please identify that.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Airs. Zazpjvy. I claim the fifth amendment. I did not bring this
document voluntarily, but at the insistence of the committee.
Mr. Arens. We have a number of documents, counsel, and I think
we could simplify it if she would say what she wants to say there.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. Will you accept the same answer to each docu-
ment, namely, the fifth amendment?
Mr. Arens. It would not hurt to say whether she produced the
locuments or not.
Mr. ScHi^siNGER. We will save time, say the same answer to each
exhibit, and that she is answering only upon order of the committee.
Mr. Arens. Is she likewise saying in each instance that this is a
documerit which she produced under the compulsion of the subpena
duces tecum ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. The same answer. I think she said it appears
to be.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will lay before you each of the several docu-
ments which we are marking as exhibits in numerical order.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 216-222.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. Tlie same answer.
Mr. Arens. Does that apply to each and every document which he
is now exhibiting to you?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I want it understood that I am testifying only on
order of the committee.
Mr, Arens. We understand that.
6386 C0MMUNI8T POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. WiLi.is. In order to clarify the record, in view of the statement
that these documents "appear to be," let it be noted bj' the counsel and
by the membei-s of this committee that those ai-e the documents that
came out of that envelope.
Mr. Arexs. I think it would even clarify the record if you would
care to take 2 minutes to swear Mr. Appell who was the recipient of
tliese documents a moment ago.
Mr. Appell, would you kindly raise your hand ?
Mr. Willis. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Appell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DONALD T. APPELL, INVESTIGATOE, COMMITTEE
ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Mr. Arens. State j'our full name, residence, and occupation.
Mr. Appell. Donald T. Appell, investigator, Committee on Un-
American Activities, House of Representatives.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell, did you, in the course of the last half hour
or so, in the proceeding now pending, receive from the witness, Elsie
Zazri\^, certain documents ?
Mr. Appell. I did. They were turned over to me by Mrs. Zazrivy
in a brown envelope. I removed the documents, which are now being
exhibited to her from that envelope, and turned them over to you.
These are the same documents which are now^ being exhibited to her.
Mr. Apjsxs. And are these the documents which you marked for
display to Mrs. Zazrivy ?
Mr. Appell. That is true.
Mr. Arens. And are numbered from 212 down to
Mr. Appell. I still have two more to mark. It will be exhibit 222.
Mr. A_rens. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfull}^ suggest that each and every one of
these documents be incorporated in the record.
Mr. Willis. They will be so incorporated and marked.
(See exhibits Nos. 212-222, appendix, pp. 7464-7480.)
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ELSIE ZAZRIVY— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Zazrivy, Mr. Appell is going to display to you
still another document. It is written on the letterhead of the Ohio
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Willis. Now you are getting away from documents in the
envelope ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Tliose have all been incorporated now.
This is on the letterliead of the Ohio Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, dated January 14, 1953, with a signature '"Elsie Zaz-
rivy ,^" and the body of the letter contains, among other language, the
following :
The decision we luade in Detroit to hold an Ohio Conference to defeat the
Vralter-J.Ir-rarran T.a\v is iiettinj; off tlio paper stane and into the actual planning
.'?ta{re.
Tlien it tolls certain tactics to be followed in the repeal of the
AValter-McC'arran law.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6387
Please look at that letter and tell us if you can verify the authen-
ticity of your signature. (See exhibit No. 136, appendix, p. 7331.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. ZAZRI^^^. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you write that letter?
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in the course of the last few years
in the realm of immigration matters or aid to aliens?
(Witness conferred Avith counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is all that you have done and all that the Ohio Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born has done of such a nature that
if you told this committee about it, you would be supplying informa-
tion which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend that conference in Detroit where plans
were laid for assault on the immigration laws of this country?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document. It is the
Ohio Defender, issued by the Ohio Provisional Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, under date of February 1953 — "March 15 set
for 'repeal the Walter-jNIcCarran Law" Conference'." There is a big
conference, according to this, to be held in Cleveland, at which a num-
ber of people are to speak.
Please look at this and tell us if you can verify the authenticity of
the existence of this conference and whether or not you participated
in it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 223a, b," see appendix, pp. 7481,
7482.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Was that conference of such nature that if you told us
about it you would be supplying information that could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who was Sentner? Do you know him?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. He was a Communist lip for deportation, was he not?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment .
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you still another document, a
press release from the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
A call has been sent out to organizations and individuals throughout the
state of Ohio for a Conference to Repeal the Walter McCarran Law and Defend
its Victims * * ♦ to be held ut the Ukrainian Labor Temple —
at which one of the activities, according to this memorandum, is to
watch a film, "The Sentner Story."
Look at that document and tell us whether or not you were a par-
ticipant in setting up that conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 224," see appendix, p. 7483.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
6388 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens, In connection with that, Mr. Appell will also display to
vou the call and leaflet of the conference itself.
(See exhibit No. 212a, b, pp. 7464, 7465.)
Mrs. Zazrint. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. If you told us the truth about that conference which
was set up here to assauh the immigration laws, would you be supply-
ing information that coidd be used against you in a criminal procedure?
Airs. Zazrivy. I chiim the fifth amendment.
Mr. xVrens. Xow, we have still another conference we want to invite
your attention to. It is a Midwest conference, a little bit bigger than
just the Ohio conference. It is a Midwest conference.
An urgent Ciill to attend the Midwest Conference to uphold the Constitution of
the United States and the BiU of Rights and repeal the McCarran Act.
What Avas the McCarran Act, or what is the AlcCarran Act? Do
3'ou know ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. What is the McCarran Act? That is the outstanding
question. Do you knoAV?
Mrs. Zazri\t^. To my understanding, it is the Internal Security
Act.
Mr, Arens. The Internal Security Act.
Xow, did you help set up this conference to repeal the McCarran
Act, the Internal Security Act?
Mrs. Zazria'y. I claim the fifth amendment.
]Mr. Arens. I have here this leaflet on this urgent call to attend the
Midwest Conference to be held in Chicago, and Elsie Zazrivy is listed
here as the executive secretary of the Ohio Bill of Rights Conference.
That is going to be one of the constituent organizations in this urgent
call to uphold the Constitution and defend the Bill of Rights by
repealing the anti-Communist McCarran Act. Just look at that
leaflet and tell us if that rings a bell, if you are the Elsie Zazrivy that
was executive secretary of this Ohio Bill of Rights Conference that
was going to defend the Constitution and defend the Bill of Rights
trying to get the Internal Security Act repealed.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 225,-' see appendix, p. 7484.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You might help defend and protect the Constitution if
you would tell us whether or not that conference took place, ma'am.
Now I have here a document, the national conference— we go from
Ohio, from Cleveland, Ohio, to the Midwest, and now we are spread-
ing to the National Conference — to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law
and Defend its Victims. This is a proceeding in Chicago, again, in
December 11)53. A number of people listed here as participants in
these proceedings include Elsie Zazrivy of Cleveland, who is chairman
of the women's panel. Ix)ok at this document here, if you please, and
tell us whether or not you can perhaps help defend the ConstitutioT>
of the United States and the Bill of Rights and this Republic by
giving us a little light on what might have been going on there in this
conference to repeal the immigi-ation laws of this country.
(See exhibit V, appendix, ])p. 8337-8371.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments as my
right to associate.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6389
Mr. Arexs. Do you honestly feel, nurain, that if you told this com-
mittee while you are under oath the truth as to the nature, the import
and objectives, the membership, of that organization and that con-
ference, the meeting in Ohio to destroy the immigration laws, you
would be supplying information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?
( The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^Ii's. Zazkix Y. I invoke the fii'st and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You have also been active, have you not, in some other
conferences, in some other arenas, to protect the Constitution and to
save the Bill of Rights. I have here before me now a photostatic copy
of the Communist Daily Worker of Tuesday, April 22, 1952 (p. 3).
Two thousand delegates, according to this article, have met and are
meeting in conferences in Cleveland, in Chicago, in Detroit, in Pitts-
burgh, in Philadelphia, and Newark. They are meeting in order
to save the IWO, to save the IWO. Curiously enough, one of the
participants in these conferences all over the country to save the
IWO is the person, according to the Daily Worker, of Mrs. Elsie
Zazrivy, who is identified here as a leader in the fight for the rights of
the foreign born. What is or was the IWO ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrint. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. The IWO was a Connnunist-controlled organization
with nationality sections all over the country, with tens of thousands
of members, all controlled by the Communist conspiracy; isn't that
correct ?
Mrs. Zazrt\t. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Look at this article and tell us how you were going to
serve the interests of the Constitution of the United States and the
Bill of Rights by joining with others trying to protect this Commu-
nist-controlled conspiratorial apparatus. Tell that to us now while
you are under oath, and maybe you can help protect the Constitution,
help protect this Republic.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 226," see appendix, p. 7485.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]\Irs. Zazrivy. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Yelde. ]Mr. Counsel, can you tell me what citations there have
been against the IWO ?
]Mr. Arexs. The IWO has been repeatedly cited by the Attorney
General and other official agencies of the Government as Communist
controlled. The State of New York revoked the charter of the IWO
some few" years ago on the legal theory that the IWO was not a legiti-
mate, bona fide insurance or fraternal order, but that it was an arm
of the conspiratorial apparatus. This is the organization concerning
which the witness this morning, and others, according to the docu-
ments, were trying to save in these various conferences over the
country.
Have you expanded your activities in the public interest by engag-
ing in a campaig7i in behalf of a certain person for President of the
Ignited States ? Were you one of the principal backers and promoters
of the Progressive Party in Ohio?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arex's. T have before me a photostatic cop}- of thr- Evening
Star of Washington, D. C. (June 11, 1918, p. A-C). The article says
85333 — 57— pt. 1 17
6390 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
"Ohio Supreme Court Told Three Main Backers of Wallace Are
Reds." That "Eeds'' means Communists. I think you will concur in
that statement. Among those three main backers of Wallace, accord-
ing to the Ohio Supreme Court, or representation of the Ohio
Supreme Court, are Elsie Zazrivy and David I. Sindell, an attorney,
both of Cleveland. Were you one of the principal backers of the Wal-
lace movement here in Cleveland, in Ohio ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 227," see appendix, p. 7486.)
^Irs. Zazrivy. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Who is Abner Green ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. He is a hard-core member of the Communist conspir-
ac3% and executive secretary of the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Bom ; isn't he ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You haxe had a little correspondence with Abner
Green ; haven't you ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I have not admitted knovv'ing him, and I claim the
firet and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. This is exhibit 217 (see appendix, p. 7473) one of the
documents you produced before us :
How does the Walter-McCarran Law Affect You? * * * It reduces the foreign
born to second-class status." * * * Hundreds of organizations and thousands of
individuals have gone on record to repeal the Walter-McCarran law * * *.
All this is to be done under the auspices of this organization of
which you were executive secretary. Will you tell us a little bit about
that?
Mrs. Zazrivy. T claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. What is your address, again, in Cleveland?
Mrs. Zazrivy. 4132 Brookside.
Mr. Arens. "V^^iat is 5103 Euclid Avenue, in Cleveland?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazri\^'. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 5103 Euclid Avenue?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ever have an office there ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How much has the Ohio Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born collected in the course of the last few years, all for the
purpose of defending the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and these
other objectives of great humanitarian import that you have been
talking about?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Has the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in the course of the last few years collected as much as $100,000
for this campaign to promote justice?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliat is the Ohio Defender?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6391
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered under the lobbying provisions
of the Lobbying Act ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Wiiiis. Yes. You are ordered to.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. No ; I have not.
Mr. Arens. You have not registered under the Lobbying Act.
Have you, on behalf of any organization, received or expended funds
for the purpose of influencing legislation in the United States Con-
gress ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment,
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you gave us a truthful answer
to that question you would be supplying information that could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now, at this moment, a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chaiiman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Willis. Have you ever been a member of the Connnunist
conspiracy ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. The witness will be excused, and we will take a
5-minute informal recess.
(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis and
Velde.)
(Brief recess.)
(Present after the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis
and Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will please proceed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. M. Y. Steinberg. Please come forward and re-
main standing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be tlie truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Steinberg. Yes; I do.
TESTIMONY OF M. Y. STEINBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Steinberg. My name is M. Y. Steinberg. I live in Pittsburgh,
Pa. I am, by occupation, a lawyer.
Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ?
6392 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Steinberg. I was born on Januaiy 1, 1902, in Warsaw, Poland.
Mr, Arens. What is your home address ?
Mr. Steinberg. 5415 Fifth Avenue,
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. Steinberg. In 1907, as I recall.
Mr. Arens. I didn't understand you.
Mr. Steinberg. 1907.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Steinberg. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. Is that by naturalization or derivation ?
Mr. Steinberg. By derivation.
Mr. Arens. Give us just a thumbnail sketch of your education,
please, Mr. Steinberg.
Mr. Steinberg. Grammar school, high school, and a year of college,
and law school.
Mr. Arens. Where did you graduate from law school?
Mr. Steinberg. Duquesne University.
Mr. Arens. And when ?
Mr. Steinberg. 1925.
Mr. Arens. When did you procure your license to practice law?
Mr. Steinberg. The same year.
Mr. Arens. And as a prerequisite to obtaining your license to prac-
tice law, did you take an oath to support and defend the Constitution
of the United States?
Mr. Steinberg. I did.
Mr. Aeens. And subsequent to the oath which you took as a pre-
requisite to obtaining your license to practice in the courts of the
State in which you reside, Pennsylvania, did you become a member
of an organization dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of
the United States?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. May I say that, to the best of my ability and beliefs,
I have always upheld the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Now just answer the question. Did you, subse-
quent to the time you took an oath to support and defend the Con-
stitution of the United States, in order to practice law in the courts
of Pennsylvania, did you thereafter join an organization which is
dedicated^ to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States
and the overthrow of this Government by force and violence ?
Mr. Steinberg. As to that, I invoke the protection of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Steinberg. I am not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Steinberg. The same answer. I invoke the protection of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party — this is
195(5 — were you a member of the Communist Party in 1950 ?
Mr. Steinberg. I have said I am not a member. As to any prior
references thereto, I invoke the protection of the fifth and first
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a year
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. The same answer, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6393
Mr. Akens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?
Mr. Steinberg. I have never been under discipline, to my knowl-
edge, of any kind.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline at any
time in the past ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have never been under disci-
pline by the Communist Party or anybody else, except to my conscience.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever resign from the technical membership in
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Steinberg. To that, I invoke the protection of the first and
fifth amendments, sir.
Mr. Arens. I am not sure I asked this question, but I must clear
the record. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday ?
Mr. Steinberg. You asked that. 1 was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a year
ago?
yiv. Steinberg. I did answer that. I told you I said that I am not
presently a member. As to any membership prior to now, I invoke
the protection of the first
Mr. Arens. Yesterday is prior to that and you gave us an answer
to that. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months ago?
Mr, Steinberg. At some point I am going to stop.
Mr. Arens. We will stay right with you, Mr. Steinberg, until
doomsday. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a week
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party o days
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 2 davs
ago ?
Mr. Steinberg. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Xow we will come back to the question. Were you a
member of the Communist Party yestei'day ?
Mr. Sit:inberg. I answered that.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Stein-berg. I was not, sir.
Mr, Arens, You were not a member of the Communist Party yes-
terday, but you invoke the fifth amendment with reference to the
Communist Party 2 days ago, is that correct?
(The witness conferred with his counsel,)
Mr. Arens. Is there a question outstanding that you are waiting to
answer?
Mr. Steinberg. I am sorry. Is there a question ?
Mr. Arens. I didn't think so, but you were in colloquy there, and
I thought perhaps you were ready to make another statemoit.
Now, Mr. Steinberg, did you, in a proceeding with reference to
your professional status in Pennsylvania, testify that you had been
a member of the Communist Party for a certain period in your life?
Mr. Steinberg. I refuse to answer that, sir, and invoke the protec-
tion of the first and fifth amendments.
6394 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. What lias been your connection with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born '^
(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Steinberg. I am not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you served as counsel for the American Com-
mittee for Protection of ForeigTi Born ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have not.
Mr. Arens. Well, perhaps this will refresh your recollection. I
have a copy of a page from the Lamp (November-December 1947,
p. 3), the official publication of the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born — "Committee Designates Local Counsel," listing
a number of people who are in the engagement of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, in connection with the Commu-
nist c.'.ses. I haven't said that quite fairly. I want to correct the
record. In connection with cases — the Lamp doesn't say "Commu-
nist" cases — in connection with certain cases. The counsel designated
for the Pittsburgh area is M. Y. Steinberg. Kindly look at that and
tell us whether or not you can verify the authenticity of that statement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 228," see appendix, p. 7487.)
(The witness conferred with his comisel.)
Mr. SiTEiNBERG. I have no recollection of ever having been counsel
for the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I have
represe]ited clients in deportation matters.
Mr. Arens. Are those matters referred to you by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Arens. How about the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Steinberg. I have not been engaged by the Western Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. Frankly, I know of no such organi-
zation, to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to the official siunmary
proceedings of the 15th Anniversary National Conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which was held
in Chicago, December 11 and 12, 1948. Mr. Appell will show it to you.
On page 2 there under the heading "Nominating Committee" — and
you will note that the people in the nominating coimnittee are desig-
nated as members of the committee — there is an M. Y. Steinberg,
identified as a member of the nominating committee. Did you attend
that conference, and were you a member of this nominating committee
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in
Chicago ?
(Document marked "Exhibit I," see appendix, pp. 8269-8274.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
Mr. Arens. The fact is you were there and you were on the nomi-
nating committee, and you were a participant ni the activities of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; isn't that true ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have no recollection of having
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6395
been on any nominating committee. I claim the protection of the
first and fiftli amendments as to the rest of my answer.
Mr. Arexs. Did you attend the Chicago conference?
]Mr. Steixberg. I claim the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
Mr. Arens. "We want to show you still another document. It
is a summary proceedings for the National Conference Against
Deportation Hysteria. It is sponsored by the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, held in Detroit, Mich., December 3
and 4. According to this document, the official proceedings, M. Y.
Steinberg was elected to the board of directors. Look at that docu-
ment, now, when Mr. Appell displays it to you, and tell this committee
whether or not you are he.
Mr. Steinbero. What is the date of that?
Mr. Arens. 1949.
I beg your pardon. I thought I said it.
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
Mr. Arens. This is the National Conference Against Deportation
Hysteria, held in Detroit, Mich., under the auspices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Steinberg. In Detroit, Mich ?
Mr. Arens. In Detroit, Mich. Were you in Detroit, Mich, in 1949,
and were you elected to the board of directors of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(See exhibit II, appendix, pp. 8275-8302.)
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth
ameiidments.
~Sh\ Arens. This conference in Detroit passed a resolution com-
mending and endorsing the efforts of the Civil Rights Congress to
defend the people's liberties, and defeat the attempt to imprison the
leaders of the Communist Party. Did you help sponsor that resolu-
tion, commending this Communist-controlled Civil Rights Congress
and to do what could be done to defend the leaders of the Communist
Party?
ilr. Steinberg. I have no recollection of sponsoring any resolution,
sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the passage of that resolution ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I did not.
Mr. Arens. Did you oppose the resolution ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I know nothing of it.
Mr. Arens. Elected to the board of directors of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born at this national conference held
in Deti'oit were a number of people. Would you kindl,y look over that
list and tell us how many of those people you know as participants in
that ccmference and as members of the board of directors?
Mr. Steinberg. I claim the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
]Mr. Arens. How many of those people on that board of directors
are known b}^ you as a certainty to be members of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. Steinberg. I have no knowledge, sir, and I claim the protection
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Just look down tlie list, and we will test your knowledge.
Do you have knowledge or do you not have knowledge?
6396 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Steinberg. I claim the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. "\"\liat was the interest of the National Conference
Against Deportation Hysteria on another little piece of legislation, the
Hobbs bill ? What was the Hobbs bill, do you recall ?
Mr. Steinberg. I do not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember what the Internal Security Act was?
Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. I advise you that the Internal Security' Act incorporated
the provisions of the JHobbs bill in it. I observe here a resolution
which was passed by this conference.
Resolved, That all orgauizatious represented at this Conference prepare a
mass campaign within their organizations and within their communities to fight
against the passage of the Hobbs Concentration Camp Bill; and that this Con-
ference call for the initiation of the broadest possible national campaign against
the passage of the Hobbs Bill.
As a member of the board of directors of this conference and of this
organization, you perhaps would have some knowledge respecting the
legislative endeavors of the organization. Do you recall the drive
that was staged by this conference, and by these organizations, con-
stituent organizations, to defeat the Hobbs bill?
Mr. Steinberg. I do not recall it, sir.
Mr. Arens. In 1949 there was created in Pittsburgh an organization
or a committee known as the American- Yugoslav Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, a specialized agency. Tell this Committee
on Un-American Activities what knowledge you have of this Ameri-
can-Yugoslav Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Steinberg. I can recall no connection. I have no recollection
of it, at the present time.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Civil Rights Congress ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have not been, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with a branch of the
Civil Rights Congress in Pittsburgh?
Mr. Steinberg. I have no recollection of it, sir.
Mr, Arens. Have you ever been identified with the Progressive
Party of AYestern Pennsylvania?
Mr. Steinberg. I represented them at one time in some legal
matter.
Mr. Arens. Is that the only nature of your association in con-
nection with the Progressive Party?
Mr. Steinberg. As to that, I don't know that it makes much
difference, but I will ask for the protection of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Alexander Wright?
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Alexander Wright was one of the moving forces of the
Progressive Party of Western Pennsylvania, was he not ?
Mr. Steinberg. I must claim the protection of the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Did Alexander Wright collaborate with you in work
with the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in connection with efforts to undermine the Internal Security
Act, the Smith Act, and the security provisions of the Immigration
and Nationalitv Act, and the non-Communist affidavit provisions of
the Taft-Hartley Act?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6397
Mr. Steinberg. To mv recollection and knoAvledge, I liave never
collaborated with anybody in connection Avitli any of that stuff that
you mentioned.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been in conference with Alexander Wright
on this subject matter?
Mr. Steinberg. To that I invoke the protection of the fifth.
]Nfr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. TViLLis. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Miss Evelyn Abelson, please come forward.
^Ir. Willis. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Miss Abelson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS EVELYN ABELSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, HYMEN SCHLESINaER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
]Miss Abelson. Mv name is Evelyn Abelson. My residence is 101
Clark Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation?
Miss Abelson. If I state my occupation, I will be fired. I prefer
to withhold that.
Mr. Arens. You are requested to state your occupation.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. The question is simply your occupation. It does not
seem too difficult to answer.
Miss Abelson. I am a social worker.
Mr. Arens. And you work where?
( The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I expect if I make public where I work, that I will be
fired. I hope that I do not have to make public that information.
Mr. Arens. Maybe it would be in the public interest if we would
divulge where you work. Tell this committee
]Mr. Willis. Why would you be fired ?
Miss Abelson. Well, it is known that many people who appear be-
fore these committees are fired from their jobs. I feel quite certain
that the same thing would happen to me, from past experience with
other people. And, therefore, if it is at all possible, I should not like
to be fired from my job.
Mr. Velde. I just imagine if you will answer the questions that are
put to you by our counsel, your employer would be very happy to
continue you on the payroll, whoever your employer is. It is very,
very seldom that this committee has ever interfered with the employ-
ment of any witness who has come before the committee. I am sure
that you have no fear.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Willis. As a matter of fact, that sounds all right, to say that
if you tell where you work, you are going to be fired. But that is
6398 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
just a little speech. The fact that you have appeared here will be
just as well known to your employer by the news releases as if you
tell where you are employed. As Mr. Velde has said, if you will
answer all of the questions which are propounded to you, I think your
employer Avill be ])leased that you attended.
Mr. Arens. What do you do at the place where you are employed?
Miss Abelson. I am a social worker.
Mr. Arens. And what do you do where you are employed ?
Miss Abelson. I do the usual duties of a social worker.
Mr. Arens. And among whom do you work ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. As I have said, I would like to not identfy my w'ork
and my employer because I would not like to lose my job. I would
appreciate it if I would not have to give this kind of information.
Mr. Arens. Let's start this W' ay, and then we will come back to that
question. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Keuben Hardin ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Reuben Hardin took an oath and swore before the Sub-
versive Activities Control Board of this Government that you were
a Communist. Was Reuben Hardin lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Your Honor, I have learned recently about many
Government witnesses who have lied. I am not able to judge the
veracity of this witness, and I would like to protect myself by claiming
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Willis. Match your veracity against that witness.
Mr. Arens. You ought to be able to tell this committee whether
Hardin was lying when he said you were a Communist. That is a
pretty bad thing to say these days.
(The witness conferred w-ith her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Could you please apprise me of the question that is
now before me?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Was Hardin lying when he said that he knew you
as a Communist?
Miss Abelson. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. No; you haven't. You said — I forgot what you did
say.
Miss Abelson. I think I claimed the first and fifth amendments by
explaining also that I couldn't judge as to the veracity of this par-
ticular witness.
Mr. Arens. Then just forget about his veracity. Are you a
Communist ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now^ tell the committee where you work.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I appeal to the chairman of the committee. As I
said before, I wish that I wouldn't have to divulge this so I w^ouldn't
lose my employment. However, if I am ordered to
Mr. Arens. If we don't make you answer that question as to where
you work, will you tell us about the AVestern Pennsylvania Committee
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6399
for Protection of Foreign Born, tell us about the Civil Rights Con-
gress, and tell us about your activities in connection with those Com-
munist-controlled organizations to destroy the security provisions of
the law and to cripple the national security program of this Govern-
ment ? Will you do that ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I wish to state to this committee that I have always,
to the best of my ability, supported the Constitution of the United
States.
Mr. Arens. 1 ell us, have you ever been a member of an organiza-
tion dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United
States?
Miss Abelson. I have never done anything, in all m.j knowledge,
to do anything that would subvert the best interests of the people of
the United States, nor the Constitution, which I admire and which I
am very proud to live under,
Mr. Arens. And just tell us, if you please, have you ever been a
member of an organization which is dedicated to the destruction of
the Constitution of the United States?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]Miss Abelson. As I said before, I have done the best I could to
fight for the Constitution
Mr, Akens. Just answer this question. Tell us whether or not you
have been a member of an organization, and wliether or not you are
at this moment, a member of an organization, which has, as one of its
principal objectives, tlie destruction of the Constitution of the United
States, and then we will proceed from there.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
!Miss Abelson. What organization are you referring to, sir?
]Mr. Arens. Don't you have any idea ?
^liss Abelson. Frankly, no.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
(The w^itness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Willis. "Well, to be entirely fair, just ask her the $64 question
again.
Mr. Arens, Are you a njember of the Communist Party?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not the Communist Partv is
dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States
and the overthrow of this Government by force and violence?
Miss Abelson, I claim the first and fifth amendments,
Mr, Arens. Now we are back where we started from. Tell us where
you work.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson, Your Honor, I am a social worker for a private
social agency,
Mr. Arens. And what is the name of that private social agency?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. As I said, if I give the name, I will certainly be fired.
Mr. Arens. Did you have a discussion with your employers respect-
ing your membership in the Communist Party Vhen you accepted this
position with this private social agency ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
6400 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX
Miss Abelson. I have never discussed any of my personal or politi-
cal beliefs with my employers.
Mr. Arens. Do Vou think your losing your job might be because the
parents of the children that you influence in communism, try to in-
fluence in communism, might protest a little bit if they knew they
had a Communist on the grounds ? Do you think that is what might
be in the back of your mind ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Your Honor, I have only one thing in mind, and
that is not to lose my job. I have once lost my job because of a
statement that was made against me, and that is the only thing that
I have in mind, not to lose my employment.
Mr. Willis. I understand that. The only way you can clear it is
by answering questions.
Mr. Arens. Where did you lose your job because someone said
something about you '? Where was that ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I mean
Mr. Arens. No. Where was it that you lost your job because
someone said something about you? Just tell this committee.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Your Honor, I don't know how that would be rele-
vant to this material
Mr. Arens. You opened the door. You made the statement. You
have started us on this route, and we want to finish it so the record
will be complete.
Miss Abelson. I am trying to be as honest with the committee and
explain my reasoning as I expect you want me to. As I say, I don't
know how that will be relevant. If I am ordered to answer it
Mr. Arens. Are you presently employed at the Jenny E. Clarkson
Home for Girls at Valhalla, N. Y. ?
Miss Abelson. Yes, I am, I think it is unfair, and I think it is
unfortunate that you know that I will lose my job. I am.
Mr. Arens. How old are the girls
Mr. Willis. That seems to be your tlieme here. I think there is
more to it than what you are saying. On the question of appearance
before this committee, I cannot conceive that appearance has any-
thing to do with losing a job. Tlie question may involve jobs, but
we have no control over your association with the Communist Party.
That is hoAV you could keep your job, by saying it is not true, the
sworn testimony that we have.
Mr. Arens. You didn't lose your job with the Western Pennsylvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born because somebody said
something bad about you, did you?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You didn't lose your job as executive secretary of the
Civil Rights Congress in Pennsylvania because someone said some-
thing bad about you, did you ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party ever deprive you of a job?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6401
Mr. Arens. How old are these girls at this Jenny E. Clarkson Home
for Girls at Valhalla, N.Y.?
(The witness conferred with her comisel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. Yes.
You are directed to ansAver the question.
(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I am not certain about the exact ages of the children
in that home. I think that the charter provides for children between
tlie ages of 5 and 18.
Mr. Arens. And how many are there in the home?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directecl to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. Yes.
You are directed to ansAA-er the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I frankly really don't know. I Avould estimate that
there are about 40.
Mr. Arens. Are you a subscriber to the Daily Worker ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. We haA^e here a Avrapper Avith the Communist Daily
Worker in it addressed to EA'^elyn Abelson, 5725 Phillips Avenue,
Pittsburgh, 17, Pennsylvania. Look at that and tell us if you are she.
We are going to give you an opportunity noAV to make your employer
proud of you, and these little girls proud, that you are here serving
your country, telling us all about the conspiratorial apparatus that
Avoulcl destroy this country. Just tell us if you are she. Perhaps you
received the Daily Worker to use it in uncovering other Communists
or something. We receive it in our Avork all the time.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 229," see appendix, p. 7488.)
Miss Abelson. I think it is illegal to interfere with the mails.
Mr. Arens. Just tell us Avhether or not that Avas your address there,
Avhether or not you received the Daily Worker.
Miss Abelson. I would like to consult with my laAvyer about your
authority to interfere with the mails.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead and consult with him.
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I have been apprised by my laAvyer that you haA'^e
no authority to interfere with the mails, and that by presenting it, if
this is a violation of my mail, that you liaA^e invaded all of my
constitution
Mr. Arens. How do you know it until you tell us whether or not
that is yours ? Tell us whether or not it is yours.
Miss Abelson. I say, if you have, you have violated all of my
constitutional rights.
Mr. Arens. Let's cross that bridge when Ave get to it. Let's cross
the first bridge now. Tell us now Avhether or not tliat is you there to
Avhom that Communist Daily Worker is addressed, and then we will
cross the second bridge.
6402 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments. But the
point I made, I want still to be valid, that this is an outrageous in-
vasion of my constitutional rights.
Mr. Arens. Do you observe any postal stamj) or any postage on that
document? That is the second bridge we are going to cross now.
Do you see any postage on there ?
Miss Abelsox. I only know Avhat j'ou said, and the document speaks
for itself.
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee now, in view of your tirade
against the committee, whether or not you see any postage mark on
there.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Ask the counsel whether he sees any on there. Maybe
he can help you.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Basing mj^self upon the statements of the counsel
of the committee, I maintain that my constitutional rights have been
invaded, and I assume that I have to take what the counsel says as fact.
Mr. Arens. We want to lay before you another exhibit. It is a
receipt book of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. It is signed there for the receipts for contributions
to that organization by one Evelyn Abelson. Would you please look
at that receipt book and make your employer and these little girls up
there in New York proud of you by telling us whether or not that is
the receipt book of this Communist conspiratorial apparatus?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 230a-d," see appendix, pp. 7489-
7492.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we have an original letter by Abner Green, dated
June 24, 1954, addressed to "Dear Evelyn" — I think our record reflects
that Abner Green has been repeatedly identified as a member of the
hard, hard core of the Communist conspiracy, and is executive secre-
tary of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This article on the Western Pennsylvania Committee you prepared for the
Lamp cannot be nsecl, and unfortunately, it is now too late to ask you to prepare
another one for this issue. We will carry one in the next issue.
In preparing the article, please keep in mind that the Lamp is a biased pub-
lication. We work like the dickens, therefore, to at the least mate it as factual
as possible, without too much politicalizing. If the material were highly polit-
ical as well as biased, it would be a lot more diflBcult to read than it is. By
political, I mean agitational since I do not feel that the Lamp, by being factual
and somewhat restrained, is at the same time being political in the correct sense
of the word. If you don't understand all of this, please drop me a note.
Best regards.
Yours,
Abner.
Look at that original letter there and see if you recall receiving
that from Abner.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. If this is, as you say, an original letter addressed
to me, I woidd want to question how you obtained such letter.
Mr. Arens. You tell us whether or not it is such original letter,
and then we will get to the second bridge again.
Miss Abelson. I am not able to say, but I want to make clear the
point, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6403
Mr. Arexs. Why can't you say ? Why can't you say wliether or
not that is an original letter ?
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr, Arens. You could make your employer and those little girls
miglity proud of you up there if you would help expose this Com-
munist operation.
(Tlie witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. If this is, as 3'ou say
^Ir. Arens. You tell us. That is the first question we are going
to decide right now. Is that a letter that you received from Abner
Green ? Just tell us that. Let's cross that bridge first.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Accepting your statement, then, somebody is stealing
letters.
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee now whether or not that is
the letter that you received from Abner Green. Then we will cross
the next bridge.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. But if what you say is so, then my constitutional
rights have really been violated.
Mr. Arens. We will cross that bridge in just a moment. You just
tell us whether or not that is an original letter which you received
from Abner Green, this hard-core Communist agent from the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, about an article you
were going to write for The Lamp.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I am advised by my counsel that I have, first, a right
to know whether this came into your possession legally.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question as to whether or not
she can identify that letter, while she is under oath.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer that question.
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you still another exhibit. It is
a mimeographed newsletter issued by the Western Penns3dvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, under date of January-
February 1954, and it contains a section entitled "Western Pennsyl-
vania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born demands Congress-
man Fulton take a stand on the Walter-McCarran Act !" It demands
all kinds of things with reference to the repeal and destruction of
the McCarranite forces, in the fight to uncover this undemocratic
Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at this and see if you were instrumental in preparing
this release.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 231," see appendix, p. 7493.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. And did you and your colleagues up there in the
Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
write to the Pennsylvania delegation, demanding that certain things
be done on the immigration laws?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
6404 COMlylUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Abelson. I understand that any citizen has a right to com-
municate with his Congressman
Mr. Arens. Surely, and any citizen ought to be able to say "Yes,
I did it, because I believed in it."' Won't you tell us that, whether
or not you did it ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Willis. The right to petition is right in the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. It is a sacred right.
Mr. Willis. We just want to know whether you did it, and under
what circumstances and for what reason.
Mr. Arens. And for what organization.
Miss Abelson. May I consult my counsel?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. AVould you please repeat your question again?
Mr. Arens. Read the question to her, Mr. Reporter.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendmeiits.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a letter here. Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, signed Evehm Abelson, execu-
tive secretary, dated August 19, 1954, addressed to "Dear Sir."
Our organization is interested in the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act.
This act is one of the most vicious, racist laws on the statute books, depriving
noncitizens of all rights and threatening naturalized citizens with the loss of
citizenship at the whim of the Attorney General.
It is our understanding that you nre a candidate for pulilic office. Tour can-
didacy comes at a time of crucial importance to the people of our country, when
our basic freedoms are being challenged by McCarthyism.
Our organization is interested in what you will do to help repeal the Walter-
McCarran Act. Many people in your district who are in contact with our or-
ganization have asked us to let them know how all candidates in this election
stand on this vital issue, so that they can vote accordingly. This, we feel, is the
concern not only of the congressonal candidates, but of all candidates for public
office.
We intend to make known as widely as possible how the various candidates
stand on the repeal of this act. We hope that we may hear from you soon, and
that we may arrange a meeting between you and a representative of our com-
mittee to further discuss this matter.
Look at that document, if you would, please. And serve your Gov-
ernment and serve the interests of this country by telling us whether
or not you sent that letter to all these candidates. Then we will have
a few more questions, if you wdll just get us that far along.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 232," retained in committee files.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Akens. Did you send that letter ? Just tell us that.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have a copy of the Communist Worker of Sunday,
September 19, 1954 (p. 15).
"Demos Get Plea to Junk Walter-McCarran Act" and I want to
read this to you.
The Platform Committee of the Democratic Party in session here last month,
received a plea from the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born to work
for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act.
A statement submitted by Evelyn Abelson, secretary of the Committee, pointed
out that 25 people in Western Pennsylvania are facing deportation as a result
of the Walter-McCarran Act.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6405
There are all kinds of other statement? of that character appearing
here in this. Xo\\', tell this committee, serve your Government, make
your emplo3^er prond of you, and these little girls up tliere in Xew
York proucl of you. and tell us, did you submit this statement on
behalf of the Western Pennsylva]na Committee for Protection of
Foi-eign Born to the Platform Committee of the Democratic Party in
Pennsylvania?
(The witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Mr, Arens. You know, Miss Abelson, this series of hearings we
are holding is a series on what the Communists are doing to undertake
to subvert the anti-Communist program of our Government, including
the security provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act. Just tell us,
did you actually submit this statement to the Democratic platform
committee ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 233," see appendix, p. 7494.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]Mr. Arexs. We will have another question after you tell us chut.
jNIiss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. And did you tell them that you were a member of the
Communist conspiracy, and that the Western Pennsylvania Commit-
tee for Protection of Foi-eign 13orn was part of the Communist ap-
paratus? Did you tell them that?
^liss Abelson. I am not sure that I am clear as to what the question
is, Your Honor.
Mr. Arens. Did you tell the platform committee of your identifica-
tion with the Communist conspiracy and of the control the Con^imunist
conspiracy has of the West<»rn Pennsylvania Committee for I^'rotec-
tion of Foreign Born? Did you tell them all that?
Mi-:s Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Who are these 25 people, the sad cases of 25 people
in western Pennsylvania, who are facing deportation as a result of
the Walter-McCarran Act ? Do you recall 25 people
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. They were all CommAinist agents, were they not, who
were being deported under the Walter-McCarran Act?
Miss Abelson. 1 claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Would it help if you looked at this article? Would
that refresh your recollection, do you suppose?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want you to direct your attention, if you please, to
another exhibit. It is a newsletter, April 1954, issued by the West-
ern Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born — "Har-
riet Barron to speak."
They were going to have a communitywide rally. The recitation
here is that the Western Pennsylvania Conunittee for Protection of
Foreign Born is not a political organization. However, the out-
spoken enemies of the foreign born are running for office and every-
thing must be done to assure that this vicious law is repealed. There
is a list of local cases, people who are being hurt by this Walter-
McCarran Immigration Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 234," see appendix, p. 7495.)
Look at that and tell this committee whether or not you prepared
that leaflet which was sent out over Pennsylvania.
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
8r>3;i;5— 57— pt. i 18
6406 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. iVRENS. I have another letter here, dated March 31, 1954, I
want to ask you about, that you can help us with. It is on the letter-
head of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in
Xew York City. It is addressed "Dear Evelyn," and signed "Har-
riet." According to the letterhead of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, Harriet Barron is the administrative
secretary. It says:
I am rearranging my schedule so that I can be in Pittsburgh on the ISth. I
assume that you would want me to come in on the 17th so that we can have a day
to discuss things before the meeting. Let me know. Regards.
Sincerely,
Haeriet.
Here is another one, dated April 13, 1954. I will take 2 or 3 at a
time. Another one from Harriet :
Deak Evelyn : Steve was here yesterday and he seemed to be of the impression
that a date had been set for a meeting. Please let me know what the date
is. * * * ^Ve also discussed somewhat some of the problems of the Commit-
tee. * * *
This Steve that is talked about here in this letter from Harriet
Barron, is that Steve Nelson, do you suppose ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Ma'am, could you give me your attention ? Was this
Steve alluded to in the letter from Harriet Barron to you, Steve Nelson
who was there conferring with her about the problems of the com-
mittee ?
Miss Abelson. May I please see that letter ?
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Here is another one from Harriet, dated June 22, 1954 :
Dear Evelyn : Do you know whether a witness named Frank Lowell has been
used in your area ; or whether anyone knows about him. He is being used in a
West Virginia case (Charleston) and they would like any information j'ou
have. Let me know as soon as possible.
It is nice to have seen you. Hope you found everything under control when
you got back.
That was in June of 1954, written from New York.
(See exhibits Nos. 44, 45, and 46, appendix, p. 7162.)
If you will just identify these letters for us, you can serve your
country, make your employer glad, and maybe save your job.
Mr. Willis. In the meantime, tell us who Steve is.
Mr. Arens. Tell us who Steve is.
Miss Abelson. The first thing I would like to bring to the com-
mittee's attention is that these appear to be original letters, and it
seems to me that it is a clear violation of the law to tamper with the
m.ails. I really wonder about the committee
Mr. Arens. That question we will get to, if you decide whether or
not they are original lettei's that were sent to you. Let's decide that
first.
Miss Abelson. About the committee taking these letters. I want
to make that statement, because I am sensitive
Mr. Arens. We will say to clear the record now, because you have
made this public pronouncement, that all of the documents I am using
have been obtained by a lawful process by the House Un-American
Activities Committee, pursuant to a subpena duces tecum. But tell
the committee while you are under oath, so your employer will read
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6407
it in the paper back there and be proud of you, whether or not you can
identify those letters.
]\Iiss"ABELSoN. When and where were these letters obtained?
^Ir. "Willis. Never mind tliat.
Mr. Arens. We will cross that bridge in a second. You tell us
-whether or not they are original letters. If they are not, there is no
use going further, is there i'
Mr. AViLLis. If they are fakes, tell us so.
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, who is the Steve that Harriet talks about, who
was up there visiting her?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^liss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
yh\ Arexs. I liave still anotlier letter I am going to invite your
attention to.
Mr, Willis. Is that Steve Nelson ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, a topflight Comintern agent. He is leader of
the Soviet espionage in the United States.
Miss Abelson. I just want to say, I w^onder how the counsel for the
committee knoAvs who that is.
Mr. Arens. You tell us. You are the one who is under oath. You
tell us whether or not
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments. But the
counsel made a statement, and I wonder what the basis for his state-
ment is.
Mr. Arens, You won't talk, and here you are trying to get me to
testify.
Miss Abelson, No; I just want to make one point to the committee,
if I may.
Mr. Arens. I don't think I am going to lose my job because I identi-
fied him as a top-flight Comintern agent.
Miss Abelson. I would like to make one point, if I may. I cer-
tainly wasn't able — I claimed the first and fifth amendments on those
ciuestions, but I wonder how the counsel was able to make a statement.
Mr. Arens. If you w^ll just identify him, we will probably get to
that point. You see, if you don't get over the first hurdle, then we
can't get to the second hurdle.
I have another letter, an original letter, addressed to Evelyn Abel-
son, Pittsburgh Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, Pitts-
burgh, from Dolsen, James Dolsen :
Dear Evelyn : At last I have received some news of what your organization
is doing. Someone sent a copy of your Sept. Bulletin. A dollar is enclosed,
for which I ask to be put on your mailing list for the bulletin and all other
issued material. Any other worthy news items you can send me will be
appreciated.
Remember, I must get material by a Friday in order to get it in the Pa.
Worker for the following week's issue.
Could you secure a copy of the Post-Gazette and clip out the editorial referred
to in your Sept. UuUetin commouting on the Allegheny County Bar Assn. state-
ment re right to counsel ?
Material on deportation and denaturalization cases would be welcomed.
With best wishes and greetings to all.
(Signed) Dolsen.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 235," see appendix, p. 7-106.)
6408 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Look at that and tell us if you can verify the authenticity of it.
Then we will ^et to the question of Avhether or not the Committee on
Un-American Activities has been violating the law.
Miss Abfxson. I Avould like to raise a question. By what ])ossible
way could I answer whether these letters are origiiial or not^
Mr. Arens. Look at them and see if you do. If you don't, say you
don't, and that will settle it.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^Miss Abelsox. One thing would be if it were
Mr. Arexs. Here is a letter that I think you should be willing to
help us on. This is with your signature on it (dated June 1. 1954) :
Dfar Friend : At the last open meeting of the Western Penna. Committee For
Protection Of Foreign Born several persons at the meeting agreed to make a
regular monthly contribution in order to assure sufficient funds to carry on the
work of the committee.
This note is to remind you of your pledge and also to interest otht?rs who
see the vital role of our committee to make such a contribution.
I am enclosing an addressed stamped envelope for your convenience. If you
have not already pledged a monthly amount I would appreciate your advising
me how much I can expect from you each month. I am certain you know the
importance of funds in makeing [sic] adequate plans to carry on the very
important defense work and activities for the repeal of the Walter-McCarrau Act.
Fraternally yours,
Evelyn Abelson, Executive Secretary.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 236," see appendix, p. 7497.)
I am sure you can tell us about your signature, and if you can't,
sign another paper there and let's compare the signatures, so we can
get along.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. B}' the w^ay, Mr. Chairman, I would respectfully sug-
gest, if it meets with your approval, that if, as, and w'hen this witness
signs her voucher for pay, that her signature be incorporated into
this record so we can help identify these documents she seems to be
having a little difficulty with.
Mr. Willis. So ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 237," see appendix, p. 7498.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us whether or not that is your sigiiature,
or whether or not it is a forgery or what has happened ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments?
Mr. Arens. Now I want to laj- before you still another document.
It is a collection list.
We, the undersigned citizens of the United States, view with alarm and
anxiety the increasing use of the WALTER-McCARRAN ACT against the foreign
and native born of our nation. * ♦ *
We call uiion every trade unionist, progressive and liberal to rally to the de-
fense of Mr. Santos ' and the 24 additional victims of the WALTER-:\IcCARRAN
ACT. We ask you to donate whatever you can to their defense, and the support
of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for the Protection of the Foreign
Born. ♦ * *
I.ssued by The Western Pennsylvania Committee For The Protection of
Foreign Born.
T>ook at that and tell us if you got up that document, and how much
you collected on that little drive.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 238," see appendix, p. 7499.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
1 Also spelled Tsantes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6409
Mr. Akens. Is that a forgery, is that a fraud or an original ^
Miss Abelson, I chiim the hrst and lifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document from Evelyn Abelson
with reference to a reception of the Western Pennsylvania Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, and still another one, "Stop the
denaturalization of the foreign born." It doesn't say ''Stop the de-
naturalization of the Communist foreign born," it just says stop the
denaturalization of the foreign born. "Defend Joseph Mankin."
"Your citizenship rights are at stake." If Mankin's citizenship is
taken away from him, it is an attack against you. Protect your rights
as an American. Send your protest to the Attorney General, United
States Attorney. Also,"^ "Repeal the Mc-Carran- Walters [sic] Act."
Issued by the Committee To Protect Joseph Mankin's Citizenship.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 239 and 240," see appendix, pp.
7500-7501.)
It says here if you have any further information you want relative
to this matter, communicate with Evelyn Abelson, 6328 Forbes Street,
Pittsburgh 17, Pa.
You look at that and lielp your Government by telling us whether
or not that is a true and correct document.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. Do you correspond or have you been in correspondence
with Allan ? Who is Allan ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. That couldn't be Allan McNeil, could it, the Commu-
nist Allan McNeil ?
Let me read you a letter here in handwriting, signed "Allan,"
addressed just "Evelyn."
This is a good order. You did a good job. As a victory, temporary but still a
victory, it deserves publicity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 241," see appendix, p. 7502.)
I will not read the entire letter, but you just look at this letter now
and tell this committee Avhether or not that is bogus or whether or not
you actually did receive the original of that letter from Allan, and
then tell us what this good job is you did, and maybe if you lose the
job you liave you can get anotlier job because you do such good jobs.
(Tlie witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Based on your statements, I would assume that
somebody is stealing correspondence.
Mr. Arexs. Let's forget about my statement for a moment and see
if you can verify the authenticity of that letter.
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Here are two other letters, one signed by Allan D.
McNeil : the other closing with : "Fraternally and sincerely" and with
the notation, "send all contributions to the Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born."
I am enclosing a copy of a press release issued by the local Coniinittee for the
Protection of the Foreign Born around the more recent attack upon uie. Here
again we have a situation where for two years the Government agents have
been on rny back because I refuse to "cooperate" with them.
Cooperate is in quotation marks.
6410 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
When first arrested I was warned that they "would make a Christian out of me,"
to quote the arresting officer.
Well, I don't like Fascists of any variety. My record in Spain and in the
trade-union movement for over the past twenty years has confirmed my hatred
of informers and dislike of the people who consciously use them. * * *
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 242:1, b." see fippendix. p. 7508.)
Tlien tliere is an analysis in this letter of how bad the McCarran
Act is, and how it is undermining all of America, and how everybody
ouo;ht to rally to destroy it, and how we ought to be careful about ih&
people losing jobs on just bogus subversive charges and the like.
Look at that letter and see if you can verify the authenticity of that
letter.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
j\Iiss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have two documents I want you to consider together.
One is a newsletter (September 1954). issued by the Western Penn-
sylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which it says
that ]\Iorris Seder, Walter-McCarran Act victim, dies. According
to this newsletter, he was one of the individuals that was up for de-
portation. Before they were able to deport him, death overtook him.
And then in connection with that, I want you to look at the copy of
the document (dated November 22, 1954) from the First Federal Sav-
ings & Loan Association of Pittsburgh, Evelyn Abelson, executrix of
the estate of Morris Seder, Evelyn Abelson, 5725 Phillips Avenue,
Pittsburgh, Pa.
Look at these and tell us, first of all, who was this Morris Seder;
secondly, if you were the one that prepared this news release with
reference to him ; and, third, whether or not you served as adminis-
tratrix of his estate.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 243 and 244," see appendix, pp.
7504, 7505.)
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. How much money is indicated there in the estate of
Morris Seder ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did you make an accounting to the court for the disposi-
tion of the funds in the estate of Morris Seder ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Xow I have still another.
It is an original document, typewritten but very heavily edited in
ink. This is part of the documentary material which has come into
the possession of the committee in a lawful, legal manner, pursuant to
legal process.
"This man is sentenced to death by the Walter- McCarran Act!"
It tells all about the "pathetic" case. It tells all about what every-
one is supposed to do.
"WE MUST ACT TODAY TO KEEP THE SANTES FAMILY TOGETHER !
We urge that you discuss this case in your trade union, fraternal or religious
groups * * * Write to Attorney General * * * Write to your Congressman * * *
Repeal this Act.
Tell this committee while you are under oath whether you are the
one that was preparing this leaflet, to save this country from fascism,
from destroying the Constitution, all of these horrible things that
were being clone by the Walter-JMcCarran Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 245a, b," see appendix, pp. 7506,
7507.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 64 1 )
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. I have still another document I want to invite j'our
attention to. It is called The Investigators. It has a picture of a man
and someone else pointing a finger at him. I assume in Communist
lingo it is a stool pigeon doing all of this. It is published by the
National Education T'ommittee, Jewisli People's Fraternal Order,
TWO, by Lewis Allan. This is a skit, all about how horrible it is in
these days for people who are innocent of any Communist affiliations
and connections to be falsely accused, and, I could say parenthetically,
to lose their jobs.
See if you can recognize that skit, and tell us whether or not your
colleagues in western Pennsylvania produced that job.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 2-i6,"' see appendix, pp. 7508-
7517.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]\Iiss Abelsox. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. I have still another letter or two here that I want you
to identify for us, so you can serve your Government. Here is an-
other letter addressed to "Dear Evelyn," from Abner, January 4,
1955, Abner Green, executive secretary of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Dear Evelyx : It looks to me like a good New Year's resolution. Keep it up.
Sorry to hear about Wolfe.
On Tolsti, will wait to see the decision. Off-hand, my feeling is that he should
do nothing-, mainly because they can do nothing to him and there is nothing
really, I imagine, a lawyer couid do for him.
Will send the tiles this week.
Coxild you please fill out the enclosed questionnaire on Tom Bliller and return
it to us ?
As soon as you set a date for your conference, please let us know. I imagine
that Harriet may be through Pittsburgh at that time. (I leave for the west
coast on February 2.5th.)
And so forth.
Look at that letter and see if you can verify the authenticity of it.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arexs (continuing) :
If the tour, about which I wrote to you yesterday, works out and you raise
$.50 for that, we can throw in this second visit for the same money.
See if you recognize that letter from your friend Abner Green.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
(See "Exhibit No. 34," appendix, p. 7143.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arexs. You have, in the course of the last several years, par-
ticipated in a number of national conferences; have you not?
]\Iiss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. "Were you present at the national conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, when Abner
Green told the executive committee of that Communist-controlled
organization that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born had created 100 organizations in 15 key States, all designed for
the purpose of undermining and destroying the Walter-McCarran
immigration law?
]\Iiss Abei.sox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. I will just show you a few of these national conference
proceedings. We won't encumber the record with all of them.
6412 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Here is a summary of proceedino;s of a Chicago conference, tlie Xa-
tional Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend
Its Victims (December 12-13, 1953). According to these proceedings,
Evelyn Abelson brought greetings from Pittsburgh. Look at that
and tell us whether or not you were the one that brought the greetings
from Pittsburgh.
(See exhibit V, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Here is a national conference — and I think it is very
important, and I think that if you would just answer one question on
this you could serve your Government — here is a National Conference
To Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans (December 11-12,
1954), and here is a report to that conference in New York City, of
December 1954, by Abner Green, executive secretary, the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
In this conference, as I say, he reports that there are today about
100 organizations in 15 key States which have been taken over, created,
or controlled by the Communist Party for the purpose of destroying
the McCarran- Walter Act. Now, just tell us whether or not you were
at that conference and you heard that report.
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Aeens. All right.
Here is the official document of this conference in which your name
appears, in which you bring greetings from Pittsburgh, Evelyn Abel-
son, of Pittsburgh, That is the conference in December of 1954, in
New York. Look at that document and tell us whether or not that
refreshes your recollection.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, and I have
avoided doing so because of the time element, that these documents to
which we have been alluding be appropriately marked and incorpo-
rated in this record.
Mr. Willis. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now just another question or two, and then we will be
finished. This is with reference to your present employment. Was
your present job obtained for you by a person known by you to be
a member of the Communist Party ?
I want to say, so this record is absolutely clear, I have no knowledge
on this subject at all.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. My present job wasn't obtained for me by anybody.
I obtained it myself, and I have not
Mr. Arens. I am very glad to hear that. I am glad this record
reflects this. I don't want anything that I have said here to indicate
that I have any knowledge that this school up there is bad in any
sense, because I don't know.
Did you have any discussion with your employers at this school,
where these girls are, respecting your past affiliations with any
organizations?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6413
Miss Abelsox. Although I don't liave to answer tliat question, I
would want to, because I want to say that I have not discussed my
past affiliations with my employer, and I want to say that certainly I
would think that it is a constitutional right that people are allowed
to hold private their own political beliefs, and I have held that right
private; that what my political beliefs are, are my own, and my own
beliefs.
Mr. Arens. Aside from political beliefs, did you discuss with them
any conspiratorial activities of yourself in the Communist Party?
Miss Abelson. Certainly not. I have not discussed any beliefs,
any personal beliefs, of mine, whatsoever.
Mr. Arens. And did you make known to them the fact that you
were executive secretary of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I don't w^ant to make any admissions, and I don't
want to make any statements here about any affiliations
Mr. Arens. Did you give them your previous employment?
Miss Abelson. But I want to state clearly — no, I did not.
Mr. Arens. You did not give tliem your previous employment?
Miss Abelson. No, I did not.
Mr. Velde. Do you mean to say that you are under the illusion
that the Communist Party is a political party '?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Willis. Let me say that I am glad counsel asked that last ques-
tion about your employer, and he very frankly said we had no knowl-
edge about their activities.
Mr. Velde. I feel. Mr. Chairman, that the record should reflect
that the committee feels that the testimony which has been given by
this witness should not reflect upon the integrity of the institution
by whicli this witness is employed.
Mr. Willis. You are absolutely right. On the other hand, as far
as this committee is concerned, our job is to continually study the
operations and machinations of the Communist conspiracy wherever
it leads us, and w^hoever might be affected thereby, including the
present witness and the others we have called and will continue to
call. It is not an inquiry into any particular facet of our society. We
go wherever the testimony leads us. Let the chips fall where they
may.
The subcommittee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock,
(Whereupon, the subcommittee recessed at 12 : 25 p. m., to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day.)
(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis and
Velde.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
(2 p. m. Present at the convening of the afternoon session : Repre-
sentatives Willis and Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will call his next witness.
Mr. Arens. Bessie Steinberg, kindly come forward.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
6414 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
Mill be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Miss Steinberg. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS BESSIE STEINBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL. HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Miss Steinberg. My name is Bessie Steinberg. My residence is
No. 6 Wellsford Street, Pittsburgh, Pa. As to my employment, I wish
to claim the fifth amendment for the reason that the counsel has
indicated that he considers the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born a subversive organization, and I do not
wish to admit or deny any association with that organization.
Mr. Arens. How did you happen to mention the Western Pennsyl-
vania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in response to the
question as to your employment? What prompted that to come to
your mind ?
Miss Steinberg. That is on my subpena, sir.
Mr. Arens. I see. Well, now, this subpena is a subpena duces
tecum, is it not, Miss Steinberg ?
Miss Steinberg. Yes, it is.
Mr. Arens. Incidentally, you are represented by counsel ?
Miss Steinberg. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Schlesinger. I am Hymen Schlesinger. I would like to ask if
this microphone is turned on during consultation between counsel and
client. There are many conversations
Mr. Arens. Just put your hands over it.
Mr. ScHivESiNGER. I am wondering whether or not it would be taken
down by this microphone or ixnj of them and taken down on ta]:)e. I
think the consultations between counsel and client are privileged.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the committee if there is any
possibility that the conversations or consultations between counsel
and client are being recorded over any microphone here.
Mr. AViLLis. That is a question of physics. If you do not like it,
turn it off, as far as I am concerned. How can I rule such a possi-
bility? There is no such intent.
Mr. Arens. Please tell the committee, have you produced the
records which are called for in the subpena which was served upon
you ?
]\f iss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you the executive secretary of the Western Pennsyl-
vania Committe for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. Mr. Counsel, you may put your hand on the micro-
phone. I am sure if there is anything audible, I have not heard it.
Mr. Schlesinger. It isn't a question of whether there is anything
audible. But it is a question of there are four microphones at the
table. Some microphones are so sensitive they can pick up a whisper
at the end of the room. This particular microphone which Your
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6415
Honor has directed me to turn off may physically be turned off. But
that does not answer as to what the character of the microphones at
the counsel table is here with reference to these other three.
Mr. Arexs. Miss Steinberg, I would like to invite your attention
to certain documents. The first is a contract of rental (dated
April 30, 1956) between the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and the Union Real Estate Co., of Pitts-
burgh. This contract of rental bears the signature of the executive
secretary' of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, and the signature affixed there is that of Bessie Stein-
berg. Please look at this document w^hich Mr. Appell will exhibit
to you, and see if you can't help the committee by verifying the
authenticity of that document?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 247," see appendix, p. 7518.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Wlio was the lady you were just speaking to in the
hearing room about a minute or so before you actually were sworn
as a witness ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. She was your predecessor in the Western Pennsyl-
vania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born; wasn't she?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us the name of the witness who preceded
3'ou at the witness stand ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. You kuow who that was. That was Evelyn Abelson;
was it not?
Miss Steinberg. I claim tlie first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you tell this committee truth-
fully whether or not you know Evelyn Abelson you would be supply-
ing information that could be used against you — —
Miss Steinberg. I will claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wait until I complete the question.
I will start over again. Do you honestly feel that if you told this
committee while you are under oath whether or not you know Evelyn
Abelson you would be supplying information which might be used
against you in a criminal ])roceeding ?
Miss Steinberg. I am saying that I am claiming the right of free
speech and association, and I am claiming the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis, You are directed to answer the question.
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr, Arens. I would like to invite your attention to aiiother docu-
ment. It is a photostatic copy of The Lamp (February- April 1956,
p, 3) of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
setting forth the various committees of that organization, and the
activities of the various organizations affiliated with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I see here in this docu-
ment the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born on March 25, 1956, held a testimonial dinner for the attorneys
6416 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
for the committee, and I would like to ask you to look at that and tell
us whether or not a^ou were in attendance at that session.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 248," see appendix, p. 7519.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. ]\lr. Chairman, in view of the state of this record
in which we have caused the record to reflect the signature of this
witness on a rental agreement identified as executive secretary of the
Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, I
ask that she now be ordered to produce the documents called for in
the subpena duces tecum which was served on her.
Mr. Willis. You are ordered to produce the documents listed on
the subpena.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. Since I am ordered to do so, I will produce them,
but I do it under protest, and I do it under protest on the grounds
that I stated in my petition or motion to quash this very subpena in
the Federal district court.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly turn those over, now, to Mr. Donald
Appell of this committee?
And, ]Mr. Appell, as you receive them, will you mark them as
exhibits?
Where did you get these documents?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are these the documents of the Western Pennsylvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Miss Steinberg. I claim
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. That is precisely
what the subpena calls for. She is now trying to purge herself of
contempt of the committee by producing certain documents.
Mr. Willis. AMiat is the pending question?
Mr. Arens. The question is, Are these documents which she has
just turned over to the committee the documents of the Western
Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. WiiXiis. You are ordered to answer that question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. Since this organization, as I said before, has been
designated by the counsel as subversive, I feel I must claim the fifth
amendment. And in connection with — that is, in connection with any
relationship to that organization.
Mr. Arens. The outstanding question is are these documents docu-
ments of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
That is precisely what the subpena calls for and that is precisely
what you have to produce in order to purge yourself of contempt
of this committee.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I have produced these on the order of the com-
mittee and the documents speak for themselves.
Mr. Arens. IMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the record now
show an order and direction to the witness to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. You are ordered, for the final time, to answer that
question. It is very vital. It is very material.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6417
Miss Steinberg. Does the chairman recognize the point that I
made in relation to my chiim for the lifth amendment and the ground
on which I claim it?
Mr. Willis. That is not the question. The question is a simple
one. . . ,
Miss Steixberg. I would ask you, sir, whether ii isn t true that
the organization, the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, has not been designated as a subversive organization
at this hearing, and, therefore, whether I do not have the right to
protect myself against self-incrimination by claiming the tifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arexs. So this record is complete, let me say that Mr. Abram
Flaxer. of the United Public Workers, has been convicted, and his
conviction is on appeal on this very issue. We don't want to take
advantage of you. But if you do not respond that these documents
which you have transmitted to this committee are the documents
called for in the subpena, you i-un the risk of facing the same situation
as Mr. Abram Flaxer. He has been convicted on this very issue.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, while she is conferring with the coun-
sel. I respectfully suggest that these documents which have been
transmitted by this witness to the conmiittee, and which Mr. Appell
is currently marking, be ordered incorporated in this record either by
reference or in the appendix.
Mr. Willis. It is so ordered.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 249-259," see appendix, pp.
7520-7539.)
Miss Steinberg. The question that was asked me is a catchall ques-
tion. It covers all of the material that was submitted. I will ansv»^er
as to each piece of material that was submitted.
Mr. Arens. Did you produce before the committee the letters and
copies of letters, and correspondence, between the Western Penn-
sylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Miss Steinberg. I ]3roduced all of the material that I could in
answer to the subpena duces tecum.
Mr. Arens. Have you produced the excerpts of all the minutes and
meetings of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I produced all of the material I was able to produce
in answer to the subpena.
Mr. Arens. What was the limitation upon your ability to produce
some of it ?
Miss Steinberg. Tliere was no limitation on my ability to produce
whatever material I could produce.
Mr. Arens. Do you have some more material in your possession
and custody in the courtroom noAA'
Miss Steinberg. I do not.
Mr. Arens. Of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I do not.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
6418 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Miss Steinberg, Reuben J. Hardin testified in Jiuie of
last year under oath that he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying
or was he telling the truth ?
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss S'rEiNBERG. Xot only he but also Matthew Cvetic and Joseph
Mazzei testified
Mr. Arbxs. Just tell us now if they told the truth when they
identified you a- a Communist.
Miss Steixbkrg. One of them is a mental case and one of them is
a liar, so-called by the Attorney General of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not Eeuben J. Hardin
lied when he identified you as a Communist.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I think just as in the case of Mazzei, it is for the
courts to decide whether Mr. Hardin is telling the truth or not. As
to mj answer here to the committee, I will have to claim the privilege
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are not under compulsion to claim anything now.
Just tell this committee whether or not Mr. Hardin told the truth
when he said under oath that he knew you as a Communist.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I have answered the question. I have claimed the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cvetic, I see you are in the hearing room. Will
you stand up back there ?
Now, Miss Steinberg, is this the man that you just condemned a
few moments ago ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is this the man that swore that he knew you as a
Communist ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel you would be supplying infor-
mation which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding if
you answered that question ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment. The fifth amend-
ment protects me against self-incrimination.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Steve Murin ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. And do you know Evelyn Abelson ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment, and the first amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Where did you get the exhibits which you have just
transferred to the custody of the committee?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you get them at your hon.ie ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who are the officers of the Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
^Ir. Arens. Where do you have j^our office during the course of the
day ?
Miss S'raiNBEHG. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where was this subpena served upon you ; do you recall ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6419
Miss Steixberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, at this point, I respectfully suggest
that the record rejflect that this part of the subpena duces tecruu be
incorporated in the record, which reflects that the subpena was served
upon this witness at 806 Renshaw Building, Pittsburgh, Pa., and I
have in my hand now a document which I ask to be incorporated in
the record', the business-reply envelope of the "Western Pennsylvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, 806 Kenshaw Building,
Pittsburgh, Pa.
Would you look at this business-reply envelope and tell the com-
mittee whether or not that accurately identifies the business address
of the "Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 260a, b and 261," see appendix,
pp. 7540-7542.)
( The witness conferred with her counsel. )
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Xow, I see liere among these exhibits which you have
transferred to the committee, "Gus Santes Deportation Frameu.p Ex-
posed.'" Was the case against Gus Santes all a frameup ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arexs. This is the leaflet of the Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Miss Steinberg. Speaking from my own knowledge of what I have
read in the local newspapers, my opinion is that it is.
Mr. Arens. Xow, do you have any other knowledge of the Santes
case?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. Yes. You opened the door. You are directed to answer
the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I only testified as to my knowledge of what I read
in the newspapers. That is the only thing I can testify to.
Mr. Arens. And do yon have any other knowledge of the Santes
case ?
Miss Steinberg. I am claiming the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell is going to display to you an exliibit wliich
you gave to the committee. In this exhibit we see a call for people to
Avrite their Congressmen, a list of certain Congressmen who were to be
contacted, to "end the menace" of the Walter-McCarran law, all under
the auspices of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. Tell us, did you prepare that leaflet ?
(Tlie witness conferred with her coimsel.)
Miss Steinberg. The leaflet, as I see it, is a reprint of newspaper
articles.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Did you prepare it ?
Miss S'raiNBERG. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which you have pre-
sented to the committee, addressed "Dear Senator," by Jack Sartislcy,
of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, urging that the Senator, and I assume other recipients of this
document, participate in memorializing Congress to repeal the pro-
6420 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
visions of tlie McCarran-Walter Act, certain provisions of the Mc-
Carran- Walter Act. Look at that document and see if you can help us,
and tell us who is the man that wrote that document.
(See exhibit No. 255, appendix, p. 7532.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Still another docmnent I have here which you turned
over to us is a call for a national conference on immigration matters,
under the auspices of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. This national conference is to be held, according to
this document, in Detroit, Mich., December 10 and 11. Did you attend
that session ? That is 1055. Did you attend that session ?
(See exhibits Nos. 258a, b, appendix, pp. 7537, 7538.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have here a pamphlet which you have just pro-
duced to the committee — remember, the subpena calls for all docu-
ments of the Western Pennsylvania Committee but this happened to
be in this group that you sent to us — The Inhumanity of the Walter-
McCarran Daw, a pamphlet for 25 cents, all under the authorship
of Abner Green.
Another, The Walter-McCarran Law, Police State Terror Against
the Foreign Born Americans, by Abner Green.
Another one by Abner Green, In Defense of the. Eight To Defend
Foreign Born Americans.
Here is another one : The Man Is Sentenced to Death by the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act.
Doesn't this show you that the Western Pennsylvania Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born must have some connection with
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the national legislative conference of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in Wash-
ington, D. C, on March 27, 1955 ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. According to these documents wliich you have turned
over to the committee, there was such a conference. And then was
there a conference, the National Conference of Defense Committees,
in New York City (June 18-20, 1954; June 10, 11, 12, 1955), under
the auspices of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, all for the purpose of defending the rights of the foreign born ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Was there another one, another conference in New
York in 1954, "The racist aspects of the Waltei--McCarran law''? It
is a conference in New York (June 18, 19, 20, 1954). Did you attend
that one ?
Miss Steinberg. On all questions in connection with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Miss Steinberg. I said in connection with all questions concerning
the American Committee for the Proitection of Foreign Born, I must
claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6421
Mr. Akens. Can you tell us whether or not you were in attendance
at these conferences^
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You feel that if you told us whether or not you were
in attendance at these conferences, you might be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding; is that
correct ?
Miss Steinberg. I am claiming the fifth amendment.
Mr. Akens. You didn't attend these conferences as an undercover
agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ; did you ?
Miss Steinberg. Why did you ask a question like that?
Mr. Arens. Now I see here something I hadn't known about before
on this activity, a joint forum of Baltic- Americans on the Walter-
McCarran immigration and naturalization law held January 8, 1956,
in Xew York City, all under the auspices of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
There is a campaign bulletin here calling for repeal of the Walter-
McCarran Act.
Can you tell us, what these groups are, these Baltic-American
groups that were called together under the auspices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I told you, sir, that in connection with the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of ForeigTi Born, I feel I must claim
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Then let's get on to another subject for the moment.
I have here a letterhead that you have turned over to us of the Na-
tional Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend
Its Victims, held in Chicago (December 12 and 13, 1953). Did you
attend that conference?
(See exhibit No. 259, appendix, p. 7539.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have here a petition on "Repeal the Walter-McCarran
law. We, the undersigned, call upon the United States Senate and
House of Representatives to" do certain things with reference to the
Walter-]\IcCarran law. Did you get up this leaflet ?
(See exhibit No. 250, appendix, p. 7522.)
Miss Steinberg. I don't know what you are talking about.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the preparation of this leaflet?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. This is from the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have here a bulletin which you have turned over
to us.
STATE LEGISLATURES.
The Walter-McCarran Law is Federal legislation adopted by tlie United
States Congress * * * State and local legislators, however, can make important
contributions to the fiftht to repeal or amend the Walter-McCarran Law. This
can be done by the legislature adopting a MEMORIAL TO CONGRESS, or
perhaps a special resolution to memorialize Congress.
It calls upon the recipients of this to take action now, and (here
are enclosed, curiously, resolutions which were introduced in the
Commonw^ealth of Massachusetts, the City Council of Philadelphia,
the New York State Assembly, the New Jersey State Senate, and the
Pennsylvania State House of Rej)resentatives.
(See exhibit No. Ga, appendix, p. 7091.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 19
6422 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Now, -why don't you serve your Government by telling your Govern-
ment -what knowledge, if any, you have of the participation of the
Communist conspiracy in undertaking to procure the enactment of
these resolutions?
Miss Steinberg. I am afraid I don't understand that question.
Mr. Arens. An right. We will take it one by one.
IMiss Steinberg. All right.
Mr. Arens. Are j^ou aware of the fact that the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born has participated in trying to get
resolutions through State legislatures and city councils, memorializ-
ing Congress to repeal the McCarran-Walter Act?
JNIiss Steinberg. Is there anything wrong in that ?
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question. If there isn't anytliing
wrong, why don't you tell us that you are aware of it.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^liss Steinberg. Well, the reason I asked is because you are asking
questions about revision and repeal activities. I want to know
whether that is considered subversive.
Mr. Arens. What we want to know is what part the Communist
conspiracy has had in this drive. That is what we are trying to
develop here.
Miss Steinberg. To revise and repeal legislation ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, by th? Commim'Stf
Miss Steinberg. Do you mean that is considered subversive activ-
ity?
Mr. Arens. Yes, by the Communists.
Miss Steinberg. It is?
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. The activity of the Communist operation
in this country is subversive. We want to know what part that sub-
versive network has had in undertaking to subvert the security pro-
gram of this Government. That is why you are here.
IMiss Steinberg. I have to take issue with you on that, sir. I think
anybody, regardless of his political beliefs, opinions, affiliations, has a
right to petition their government for a redress of grievances, and that
includes
Mr. Arens. And the American people have a right to laiow what
the Communists are doing in this regard.
Miss Steinberg. And that includes the right of petition or repeal
for revision of any law, including the Walter-McCarran law.
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. You are perfectly right about that. Now
you just tell us what you have done to cause the repeal or amendment
of tlie Walter-McCarran law. You tell us that. You have a perfect
right to do that. Tell us what you have done.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. As to my activities, I am going to claim the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Ari'.ns. Of course you are.
Mr. Velde. Whj'^ do you claim the fifth amendment when you say
it is not illegal to petition for redress of gi-ievances?
IMiss Steinberg. Because certain organizations have been termed
as subversive.
Mr. Velde. You have just admitted that it could not possibly lead
you to any criminal prosecution. Why can't you answer now ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6423
Miss Steinberg. Counsel said that. I don't agree witli counsel, but
counsel said that.
Mr. Velde. You said yourself there is nothing wrong m petitioning
for redress of grievances.
]\liss Steinberg. There isn't anything wrong, but I respectfully
submit that if counsel says that certain organizations that have con-
ducted repeal or revision activities are subversive, then I must claim
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is the "Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protectioiv
of Foreign Born Commimist controlled ?
]\Iiss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have another leaflet here, The Walter-McCarraii
Law — Strait Jacket for American Liberties, by the New York Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. Tell us how you hap])ened to
have that leaflet in western Pennsylvania, of the New York Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born. Is there some relationship be-
tween your organization and the New York committee?
(See exhibit No. 114a, b, appendix, pp. 7296, 7297.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
JNIr. Arens. Now without telling any organizations in response to
this question, with wixich you may be identified, just tell the number
of conferences you have been in in the course of the last year or two,
for the purpose of causing changes in the ^Valter-McCarran law.
Miss SiTiiNBERG. 1 iiave to claim the fifth amendment on that for
the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Have you been in such conferences ?
Miss Steinberg. And the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have }■ on been in sucli conferences ?
Miss Steinberg. I must claim the first and fifth amendments.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you have any employment from which you receive
an income?
Miss Steinberg. I have to claim the fifth amendment on that
question.
JMr. Arens. How long have you known your lawyer?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever served the Communist Party M'ith him ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Sciilesinger. I must object. I think that is an attack on the
right of counsel, Mr. Chairman, and I want to record the objection for
the record.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Counsel will have an opportunity to be sworn in
a little while.
AVe will see about that in a few moments. Counsel.
Mr. Sciilesinger. 1 will certainly be glad to be sworn, but I still
want to object.
Mr. Arens. We want you to be just as vociferous, to be just as fluid,
and talk just as forthrightly in a few moments when you are under
oath as you do now when you are not under oatli.
Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velpe. I have just a question or two.
Miss Steinberg, you filed a motion to quash the service of subpena,
as I understand it, in Pennsylvania?
Miss Steinberg. Yes.
6424 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. Where was that filed ?
Miss Steinberg. In the Federal district court, the third circuit.
Mr. Velde. "Wliat was the outcome of that ?
Miss Steinberg. The motion was denied.
Mr. Velde. Thank you. That is all.
Mr. Willis. Tlie net effect of the ruling of the court was that the
Federal court sustained the right of this committee to compel you to
bring these documents.
That was the net result?
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. I assume that is a fair interpretation and the
court's language.
Mr. Velde. And, therefore, do you believe in our Federal court
system ?
Miss Steinberg. I certainly do, sir.
Mr. Velde. And the Federal court denied your motion?
Miss Steinberg. They did.
Mr. Velde. Then why did you not bring in all the records which
were subpenaed ?
IMiss Steinberg. I did. I did, sir. I submitted them.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if j^ou please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Mr. Hymen Schlesinger.
Mr. Schlesinger, would you kindly raise your right hand and be
sworn ? _ .
Mr. Willis. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I do.
TESTIMONY OP HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Schlesinger. My name is Hymen Schlesinger. I live at Kural
Delivery 6, Butler. I have an ofHce for the practice of law in the city
of Pittsburgh, Pa.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena that
v.'as served upon you, Mr. Schlesinger?
Mr. Schlesinger, That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that there are
pending proceedings against me in which I have claimed the rifth
amendment as to that very question, in view of the fact that certain
paid professional informers, such as Joseph Mazzei and Matthew
Cvetic have stated that I am a Communist, I am claiming ihe fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is one of these persons that has accused you a person
by the name of George E. Dietze?
Mr. Schlesinger. There was such a person that appeared as a
witness against me.
Mr. Arens. And did he testify that he knew 3-ou as a member of
the Communist conspiracy?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6425
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. Mr. Cliairiiian, I think it would be unfair to
disclose the details
Mr. Arens. You started it. You opened the door. Answer the
question whether or not Dietze identified you as a Communist.
]Mr. SciiLEsiNGER. AVell, Mr. Chairman, I stated the reason
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not
Dietze identified him, Schlesinger, as a Communist.
Mr. Willis. You are an expert lawyer in this field, and you made
a certain remark for your protection, and you have opened the door.
You cannot shield yourself from this. You talked about paid in-
formers for the record, and for the effect, and you opened the door.
Of all lawyers, you know the result.
Mr. Schlesinger. I did not identify the proceeding. I simply
stated what is a matter of public record in the newspapers.
Mr. Arens. Is Dietze one of the men who identified you as a Com-
munist ?
That question is outstanding and I respectfully suggest he be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Schlesinger. If the committee directs me, I will have to
answer, but I want to say that I did not identifj^ the particular pro-
ceeding. As a matter of fact, I did not have any particular proceeding
in mind.
Mr. Arens. Now answer the question.
Mr. Schlesinger. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. Is there an outstanding suggestion for an order?
Mr. Arens. The question was whether or not Mr. Dietze was one
of the witnesses who identified this man as a Communist, and he has
invoked the fifth amendment.
Now, when Dietze identified you as a Communist, was he lying or
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I must invoke the fifth amendment on that
question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment a Communist ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I wish to invoke the fifth amendment and the
first amendment and the sixth amendment, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Veij3e. Mr. Schlesinger, a minute ago you mentioned a paid
informer by the name of Matt Cvetic that accused you, or something
or other. Did he accuse you of being a Communist ?
Mr. Schlesinger. Well, does the committee direct me to answer
that question ?
Mr. Arens. You aie supposed to answer all the questions.
Mr. Willis. Did you just so testify ?
Mr. Velde. You stated it yourself. You opened the door to it.
Mr. Sciflesinger. No, I stated the grounds upon which I was
claiming the fifth amendment; in view of what is public information,
in view of what is a matter of public record, where the newspapers
have carried the stories. I am not stating anything that is not a mat-
ter of record, and stating that in view of all this publicity and public
record, I am claiming the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. You are confusing public records with newspaper
reports.
Mr. Schlesinger. Well, both.
6426 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. Did Matt Cvetic under oath ever accuse you of being
a Communist Party member?
Mr. SciiLESiXGER. Does Your Honor — does the committee direct
me to answer that question?
Mr. Arexs. You are supposed to answer all the questions.
Mr. ScHLESiXGER. I am claiming the fifth amendment. I stated the
basis upon which the claim was made.
Mr. Vei.de. I request that he be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. I direct you to answer the question, because in your
opening statement — and we can look back at this record — you said
nothing about newspapers. You said in view of certain pending
proceedings, and you did not identify them, and the fact that certain
paid informers, including So-and-So, you had to take the fifth amend-
ment. You are the one that said it, so I now order you to answer
the question.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Chairman, the newspapers have carried the
stories that Matt Cvetic has testified against me in several proceedings,
in each of which he has accused me of being a member of the Com-
nuniist Party. Those proceedings include, as matters of public record
which the whole w'orld knows, congressional hearings and other pro-
ceedings, which it is not necessary for me to name.
Mr. Arexs. Now, w^as he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. ScHLESixGER. I claim the fifth amendment and the sixth
amendment.
Mr. Arexs. You had a young lady sitting beside you a moment ago,
Miss Bessie Steinberg. Did you ever serve in the Communist Party
with her ?
Mr. ScTiLESiXGER. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. And a few moments ago you had seated beside you a
lady by the name of Evelyn Abelson. Did you ever serve in the
Communist Party with her ?
Mr. Schlesixger. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know the young lady who was sitting beside
you a moment ago ?
Mr. Schlesixger. That sounds like a trap question. I will have
to claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Velde. As a lawyer, how can you possibly claim that that is a
trap question, to ask wdiether you know a certain individual?
Mr. Schlesixger. Counsel is trying to open the door. As a matter
of fact, if I were to admit that I know any of these people, then that
would be the takeoff point on which this committee would begin to
crucify me. I have been under a severe attack in the city of Pittsburgh
for representing these people. All of these cases I have handled, I
have done at great expense, great loss, and a great sacrifice to me. The
whole bar has shied away from accepting cases involving Communists.
I think 1 am fulfilling the highest traditions of the profession of law
in sujDplying counsel to these people when they can't get it anywhere
else.
Mr. "\^''illis. That is a fine speech, but it does not answer the question.
Mr. Schlesixger. What is the question. Your Honor?
Mr. Velde. You say Miss Abelson is a Communist and that is the
reason you are not going to admit you are acquainted with her ?
Mr. Schlesixger. I don't recall having made that statement.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6427
Mr. Arexs. You have lauded j^ourself here for representing these
people as a lawyer. Was your representation of these people at the
direction or suggestion of the Communist conspiracy
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. "Well, in the first place, Mr, Counsel
Mr. Akexs. Or by any person known by you to be a member of
the conspiracy ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. In the first place, Mr, Counsel, I have not lauded
myself for representing them. It is a duty which I have accepted
willingly.
Mr. Arens. You are discharging this duty by coincidence in the
fulfillment of a suggestion by people who are in the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. It is a duty which I
Mr. Arens. Just answer that question. Are you representing these
people at the direction of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Schlesinger. If you will let me answer it in my own way, I
will be glad to answer it. If the counsel wants me to answer it in his
way
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee whether or not you are repre-
senting these people at the behest and at the direction of the Com-
munist Party. You can answer that question.
Mr. Schlesinger. Are you referring to the people for whom I have
been appearing today ?
Mr. Arens. Let's start with them. That is a good starting place.
Mr. Schlesinger. All right. What is your question ?
Mr. Arens. Are you representing them at the direction of a person
known by you to be a Communist ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I am representing each of them at his or her own
individual request and as my duty as a lawyer, and member of the bar.
Mr. Arens. Have you been requested to represent anyone here
today by a person who, to your certain knowledge, is a Communist?
Mr. Schlesinger. I make no inquiry of anybody's political beliefs,
Mr, Chairman, The only
Mr, Arens, I am not asking about anybody's political beliefs. I am
asking whether or not your representation of these people here today
is or has been at the solicitation of a person whom you know to be
a Communist,
Mr, Schlesinger. IMr. Counsel, it seems to mc that this badgering
has one effect
Mr. Arens. There is no badgering. It is just evasive action on your
part. Tell this committee whether or not you
Mr. Schlesinger. I have stated to the committee that I am repre-
senting each one of these people at his request.
Mr. Arens, Yes ; and how many
Mr, ScHiJssiNGER. Wait a moment. And if I am going to be criti-
cized or attacked for my representing them, no lawyer in Ohio or
Pennsylvania or elsewhere will undertake the representation of these
people, and it will be a denial of the right of counsel.
Mr. Arens. You know as Avell as I do there has been no criticism
against you for representing these people. The query is: Is your
representation at the behest of a person known by you to be a
Communist?
Mr. Schlesinger. I think that is an unwarranted inference. It
carries
6428 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Answer it anyway.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. I don't Know. I make no inquiry of their political
beliefs.
Mr. Arens. Let's take them one by one. Do you know whether
your client, Evelyn Abelson, is a Communist, and did you know it
when she asked you to represent her ?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER, The simplest answer I can ^ve you is that that
question is in violation of a right
Mr. Arens. That question is not in violation of any right. You
tell this committee whether or not you know Evelyn Abelson is a
Communist.
Mr. Schlesinger. I was going to finish. It is a violation of the
right of counsel. But I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. In other words, if you told this committee whether or
not you know that your client, Evelyn Abelson, is a member of the
Communist conspiracy, you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Schlesinger. In view of what you, yourself, have stated, Mr.
Counsel, the answer is obvious. Of course.
Mr. Arens. Of course, you could be prosecuted criminally ?
Mr. Schlesinger. On the basis of what you said. I do not admit
it is true.
Mr. Arens. Do you deny Evelyn Abelson is a member of the com-
munist conspiracy ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I make no admission or denial. I have claimed
on the basis of the first, fifth, and sixth amendments, the right to
represent them without any attack or criticism on the part of you or
anybody else.
Mr. Arens. Now, I want to direct your attention to a document,
referring to the National Civil Rights Legislative Conference held in
Washington in 1949. Look at that document and tell us whether or
not you were a participant in that conference.
(Documents marked "Exhibits No. 262a-d," see appendix, pp. 7543-
7546.)
Mr. Schlesinger. This doesn't ring a bell with me, Mr. Chairman,
but I want to say that I would like to claim the first and fifth amend-
ments with reference to any activity of the Civil Rights Conference,
or Civil Rights Congress, in view of what has been stated today about
the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Arens. Irrespective of how bad the Civil Rights Conference
is, if you haven't been connected with it, you certainly don't suggest
to this committee that you have a right to invoke the fifth amendment
with reference to any questions concerning the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Schlesinger. You asked me if I simply attended that confer-
ence.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schlesinger. That appears to be a pamphlet relating to a
public gathering sponsored by the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Arens. That is right. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schlesinger. I do not have any recollection of it.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Schlesinger. But, at the same time, I want to say that I neither
admit nor deny, but in view of what has been stated about the Civil
Rights Congress, I do claim the protection of the first and fifth
amendments.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6429
Mr. Willis. What has been stated?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. That the Civil Rights Congress is a subversive
organization, Your Honor.
Mr. Willis. Is it true?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I claim the first and fifth amendments on that.
Mr. Velde. By whom has it been stated to be subversive?
Mr. ScHu:siNGER. By counsel this morning.
Mr. Velde. By whom else do you know it has been stated to be a
subversive organization ?
Mr, ScHLEsiNGER. I think counsel is the only one that has made
the statement today, but the newspaper has carried stories that the
Attorney General has cited this organization.
Mr. Velde. You know that the Attorney General has cited this
organization ?
Mr. SoHLEsiNGER. I have read newspaper stories on that, Your
Honor, and so have you.
Mr. Velde. You know the Un-American Activities Committee has
cited it?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I think I saw a newspaper report about that,
Your Honor, and I think you made a statement about the Civil Rights
Congress which has been published in the press.
Mr. Arfjsts. Are you presently a member of the National Lawyers
Guild?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. In view of the fact that the National Lawyers
Guild, according to the newspapers, and according to the United
States Supreme Court, has been cited by the Attorney General under
the Internal Security Act, I claim the protection of the first and fifth
amendments, as to that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to a publication
by this committee, a report on the National Lawyers Guild, Legal
Bulwark of the Communist Party. On page 18 there, one of the
officers of the National Lawyers Guild, indeed one of the executive
board members, is listed as a Hyman Schlesinger of Pittsburgh, and
over on the next page, the very next page, the executive board, Hyman
Schlesinger, Pittsburgh. One is for the year 1949 and the other is
for the year 1950. Look at that document and see if that correctly
describes you.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Counsel, you are directing my attention to
pages 18 and 19 of this exhibit, according to what Mr. Appell handed
me?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Schlesinger. And upon which pages appears to be, under the
name of Pittsburgh, the name of Hyman Schlesinger, and on page 19
the name of Hyman Schlesinger, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Is that you?
Mr. Schlesinger. In view of the answer that I gave to the last
question, Mr. Chairman, that the National Lawyers Guild has been
cited by the Attorney General, and proceedings are now pending in
the courts, in the District of Columbia, in wliich it is alleged that the
National Lawyers Guild is a Communist-front organization, and in
view of the fact that tlie exhibit you have just handed me character-
izes the National Lawyers Guild as a legal bulwark of the Com'munist
Party, I must claim the protection of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. You don't know any other Hyman or Hymen Schles-
6430 COMINIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
inger who is a lawyer in Pittsburgh who is a member of the National
Lawyers Guild besides yourself, do you ? Is there any other Hymen
Schlesinger
jNIr. ScHLESixGER. I cau only answer tliat question this way : I am
the only Hymen Schlesinger that I know of in Pittsburgh who is a
lawyer. But as to whether or not that answer carries an inference
that I am a member of the Lawyers Guild, I will have to claim the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Aeexs. Now I would like to invite your attention, ]^Ir. Schles-
inger, to the Communist Daily Worker of August 16. 1951, Philadel-
phia Unionists Back Civil-Rights Rally, inviting labor to attend a
civil-rights rally being held Thursday evening in Reynolds Hall.
Speakers include Hymen Schlesinger, noted Pittsburgh attorney, who faces
prosecution under the Pennsylvania sedition law, and David Davis, business
representative of Local 155 UE —
And so forth. Please look at this article and tell us whether or not
you were one of the orators at this civil rights rally held in Philadel-
phia on August 16, 1951.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 263," see appendix, p. 7547.)
Mr. Schlesinger. Looking at the exhibit. Mr. Chairman, which
appears to be, according to the masthead, the Daily Worker of August
16, 1951, and in view of what has been said about the Civil Rights
Congress, and the fact that the newspapers have also carried the story
that Mr. David Davis has been convicted under the Smith Act as one
of the Philadelphia officials of the Communist Partj^, I must claim the
first and fifth amendments in response to your question.
Mr. Aeens. Have you ever been connected with the Citizens Com-
mittee To End the Stool Pigeon Racket, in Pittsburgh, Pa. ?
Mr. ScHLESiisrGER. May I see what you are referring to ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Schlesixger. I take it. Your Plonor, that there is some ques-
tion as to whether or not the "stool-pigeon racket" is accurate?
Mr. Ai;ens. Just answer the question, please.
Mr. Schlesinger. The leaflet you handed me has the signature of
the Citizens Committee To End the Stool Pigeon Racket, 212 Forbes
Building, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Now, Mr. Chairman, reading over this material, it appears to con-
tain a great deal of material about professional informers, namely
Joseph Mazzei and Matt Cvetic, both of whom have been thoroughly
discredited, the former of whom has been castigated by the Depart-
ment of Justice and the United States Supreme Court.
Mr. Arens. "V\niy don't you, then, help in discrediting Mr. Mazzei
by standing up here now while you are under oath and saying "Maz-
zei was a liar when he identified me as a Communist," and why don't
you stand up here while you are under oath and say "Matt Cvetic was
a liar when he identified me as a Communist." Wiy don't you do
that?
Mr. Schlesinger. Are you defending the stool pigeons, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. I am only asking you while you are under oath to stand
up and deny that you are a Communist, in view of the fact that three
people have identified you as a Communist?
Mr. Schlesinger. Because these people have had me arrested, these
people have made charges against me, and they will do it again. I
COaOIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6431
just don't want to go through the continual, perpetual, torment of
having to defend legal proceedings.
Mr. Arens. Is that the only reason ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. Isn't that reason enough?
Mr. Aeens. Let's see now. Is that the only reason why you don't
want to deny that
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. There is another reason I will be glad to give you.
Mr. Arens. Let me have all the reasons, now that you have started
on these reasons.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. This is the main reason.
Mr. Arens. Give us all the reasons.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I Will give you the main reason.
Mr. Chairman, I have been attacked, in my opinion, by these people
because I have accepted the representation of these unpopular minor-
ity people and groups, and lawyers in Pittsburgh have shied away
from such cases. If any lawyer who accepts these cases is ^oing to
be subject to the attacks and criticisms that I have been subjected to
today by these methods of insinuation and smear, I am certain that
no lawyer will ever offer his services to represent an unpopular
individual,
Mr. Arens. "^^Hien you were identified as a member of the legal
commission of the Communist conspiracy by people who testified un-
der oath, tell us if your failure to deny that was prompted by the
feeling that you just expressed.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. The oath of Mazzei and Cvetic, Mr. Chairman,
are very, very worthless.
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question. Is that the pnly reason you
won't take issue with Mazzei, Cvetic, and these other witnesses who
laid their liberty on the line and identified you as a member of the
legal commission of the Communist conspiracy? You just tell us.
Mr. Dietze and there are others. You just tell us while you are under
oath now, if the only reason why you won't take issue with them is
because you don't like their character or because they are what you
described as stool pigeons. Is there any other reason, any other pos-
sible reason why you won't take issue with them while you are under
oath?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. Mr. Counsel, I have given you three reasons.
Mr. Arens. Give me all the reasons. Is there any other reason
lingering in the back of your mind why you won't deny while under
oath
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. If there were no other reason but that the right
of counsel is guaranteed by the Constitution, that would be sufficient
in my judgment to justify-
Mr. Arens. Isn't the true reason that you Imow if you deny while
you are undei> oath that you are now a member of the legal commission
of the Communist Party, that you would be committing perjury and
would be sent to the penitentiary for it?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I dou't waut to get into an arg^iment with you.
I do want to sny this : These same informers will again desecrate their
oath and the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Did they desecrate their oath when they identified you
as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. If you will let me finish my answer
Mr. Arens. No ; we want to get to that point.
6432 COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. It is beneath my dignity to attempt to deny any-
thing that Mr. Cvetic and Mazzei do. I think the Supreme Court has
shown
Mr. Arens. Is it beneath your dignity to deny what Dietze said
under oath when he identified you as a Communist? Let's protect
your dignity as far as possible. Plow about Dietze? Is it beneath
your dignity to deny ? Is he a stool pigeon, too ?
Mr. ScirLESiNGER, If you use that word in reference to Mazzei and
Cvetic, I see no difference between Mr. Dietze, Mr. Mazzei, and Mr.
Cvetic. To me they are all birds of a feather.
Mr. Arens. Tell me while you are mider oath what you mean by a
stool pigeon. Is a stool pigeon one who identifies you as a Commu-
nist?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. You liave used the term. I am willing to accept
your terminology.
Mr. Arens. My terminology would be this. We have thj-ee men
who have identified vou under oath, and you tell this committee you
don't want to deny the accusation because they are stool pigeons and
it is beneath your dignity. I am asking you now to stand up like
a red-blooded American, under oath, and tell us what is the reason
you will not deny this.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I am standing up like a red-blooded Ameri-
can
Mr. Arens. All right, you have stood up, and identified youi-self
as red-blooded. Now tell us whether or not you are a member of the
Communist conspiracy.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. I Want to say this. As far as Mazzei and Cvetic
is concerned, they are absolutely unworthy of credibility.
Mr. Arens. Did they lie when they said they knew you as a Com-
munist? Did they lie?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I liave answered that a dozen times.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Schlesinger. I wouldn't believe any of those people at all,
because they have testified a number of times, and the Department of
Justice has characterized Mazzei as unw^orthy of belief, and Mr.
Cvetic has been a mental patient in a hospital three times last year.
Mr. Arens. Did they lie when they said you were a member of the
Communist Party? Did they lie ? That is the point.
Mr. Schlesinger. The Department of Justice said that Mr. Mazzei
lies, and I think Mr. Cvetic's record speaks for itself.
Mr. Arens. Don't evade any more. You have 0])ened the door as
wide as a barn door. We can walk through it and back again, and
run a plow through it. Did Mazzei, Cvetic, and Dietze lie when they
said you were a Communist? You tell this committee that, or we
will stay here until you do.
Mr. Schlesinger. Well, I will invoke the fifth amendment since
the committee's time is very valuable,
Mr. Arens. Well, in other words, it is true, Mr. Schlesinger, that
if you told the truth now while you are under oath, as to whether or
not these three men lied, you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Schlesinger. To me that is a trap question. The only answer
I can make is that I will claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. I just finished reading cases of the Supreme Court and
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6433
I want you to answer that question now. Do you honestly apprehend,
sir, that if you told this committee truthfully while you are under
oath whether or not Mazzei, Cvetic, and Dietze lied when they identi-
fied you as a Communist, you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
I respectfully request or suggest the chairman to order you to
answer that question.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. Mr. Chairman, let me say this, I have already
said that I claim the fifth amendment on any of the statements that
those gentlemen have made.
Mr. Arens. Yes, but you have opened a whole new area of inquiry
now, of your own volition.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I haven't opened anything.
Mr. Arens. Let me suggest, Mv. Chairman, that the witness be or-
dered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not he truly
fears criminal prosecution if he denies while under oath the identifica-
tion of himself by these witnesses.
Mr. "Willis. That is a perfectly ^ood question. Counsel knows it.
He is not immune from any other fashion of testifying on other wit-
nesses. He is now ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. SciiLEsiNGER. I will, if Your Honor will permit me to answer
it and to finish an answer. Let me say first of tliese persons, Cvetic
has alread}^ demonstrated his ability to begin a criminal prosecution
against me.
Mr. ^^""11.1.18. That is not the question asked you.
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. I will finish the question. Therefore, in view
of the fact that Mr. Cvetic has brought a criminal prosecution, which
is a matter of public record, the onl}^ answer I can give will be in the
affirmative. He has already done it. I have no doubt but that this
mental psychopath will do the same thing again. And why should
1 give him anything, any kind of grounds upon which to function?
As to Mazzei, I have already characterized Mr. Mazzei. But what
disturbs me more, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Willis. Your answer is that you fear that if you truthfully
answered the question, the result would be to subject you to criminal
prosecution ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. Not Only do I fear it, but I have experienced it.
Mr. Willis. All right.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir. Now let's get on to the next exhibit.
I want to invite your attention to a little proceeding back in 1951,
as i-ecorded in the Associated Press :
I'lTTSHUUGH, May 25. — Jiid?;e Michael Mnsmanno yestfrday held Attorney
Hyinan Schlesinger in contempt of court when the lawyer refused to say if he is
or ever has been a member of the Conununist Party.
.Tudse Musnianno put his question to Mr. Sihlesluger after the Pittsburgh
attorney appeared in court to plead a routine d:image suit. Judge Musmanno
asked him :
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"
Mr. Schlesinger told the .judge the proceedings was without precedent and
unconstitutional. Judge Musnianno replied :
•'The oath [taken l)y attorneys J requires you to behave yourself in office witii
all g(M)d fidelity and requires your allegiance to the United States."
Judge ]Musmanno cited testimony of a former V]M agent during another
trial and said it implicated Mr. Schlesinger. He said Mr. Schlesinger's con-
duct renders him unfit to try cases in court.
Judge Musmaimo said he will sentence Mr. Schlesinger at a hiter date.
6434 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Did you refuse to tell a judge of the State court of Avhich you are
an officer, as a member of the bar, whether or not j^ou are a Commu-
nist ?
Mr. ScHLESixGER, Mr. Counsel, first I will claim the first and fifth
amendments and sixth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Don't make another speech. We don't need that.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I was going to characterize Judge Musmanno's
proceeding as the Supreme Court has characterized it.
Mr. Arkns. Tlie next question is this : "Were you a member of the
Communist conspiracy when you had this little experience with Judge
Musmanno in the court ?
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments on
that question.
I think it will shortcut the proceedings, Mr. Chairman, if we
make it as simple as possible.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. I have nothing further to say except to make a re-
mark for the record, that a professional man, especially a lawyer,
is a very dangerous person if he is a member of the Communist con-
spiracy. Certainly it appears to me that the witness we have just
heard is a member of the Communist conspiracy. Again I want to say,
as I did yesterday, that all of our security agencies, for tlie protection
of tliis country, sliould continue their alertness in this particular
case.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Conunittee member, Mr. Velde, I should like
to answer that.
Mr. Velde. I did not ask you a question.
Mr. Schlesinger. I have been accused. I think in fairness to my-
self, I should be permitted to reply to that statement.
Will the chairman permit me to reply to that ?
Mr. Willis. He made a statement for the record. You have been
on the record for a long time.
The witness is excused.
The subcommittee will take an informal recess of 5 minutes.
(Present at the taking of the recess: Eepresentatives Willis and
Velde.)
(Brief recess.)
(Present after the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis
and Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will call his next witness, please.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Joseph Eudiak.
I\Ir. Willis. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rui)L\K. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH EUDIAK, ACCOMPAmED BY HYMEN
SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. RUDLA.K. Joseph Rudiak, 1908 Jane Street, Pittsburgh; sales-
man, self-employed.
COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6435
Mr. Akens. You are appearing today, Mr. Rucliak, in response to
subpena which was served upon you by the House Conmiittee on
Un-American Activities ?
Mr. KuDiiVK. What is the question?
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
by the committee?
iVIr. EuDiAK. That is right.
Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel?
Mr. KuDiAK. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself?
Mr. Schlesinger. "With a great deal of pleasure. I am Hymen
Schlesinger, of Pittsburgh.
Mr. Arens. lsh\ Rudiak, where were you served your subpena?
Do you recall?
Mr. EuDiAK. At my home.
Mr. Arens. Is that 1908 Jane Street ?
Mr. RuDLVK, That is right.
Mr. Arens. Are you chairman of the Nationality Committee of
W^estern Pennsylvania ?
(The witness conferred v/ith his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the first and fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
whether or not you were chairman of the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. IMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the last question.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. In view of the fact that the oi .anization that you
are speaking about may be characterized in the newspapers as a sub-
versive organization, I claim the fifth amendment, the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Rudiak, I want to display to you a document
which was obtained by this committee pursuant to a subpena duces
tecum, "Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania, Post Office
Box 10781, Statement on the May 18 State Primary Elections," and
the recipient of this is called upon to do all kinds of things with ref-
erence to the repeal of tlie Walter-McCarran Act, all the efforts of
various groups in the country to destroy the Bill of Rights and pave
the way for fascism, and the lilte.
This document bears tlie identification Joe Rudiak, chairman ; Joe
Mankin, secretaiy. Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania.
Please look at that and see if you can't help this committee of the
Congress by verifying tlie authenticity of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 2G4," see appendix, pp. 7547,
7548.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. Where did you get it at ?
Mr. Arens. elust please tell this committee whether or not that is a
valid, true, and correct document. Did you ever see the document
before ?
6436 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, to continue to lay the fomidation
for reference to the snbpena duces tecum, 1 would like to request that
the record at this point reflect a letter which is addressed to me as
director of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, by the
assistant postmaster at Pittsburgh, Pa., with reference to the box
numbers and signature cards on file in that post office, for the National-
ity Committee of AVestern Pennsylvania, which letter will speak for
itself, but it says in essence that the person who can sign for it is
Mr. Joseph Rudiak, whose residential address is 1908 Jane Street,
Pittsburgh, Pa.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 265a, b," see appendix, pp. 7549,
7550.)
With that in the record, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully invite the
witness' attention to the subpena duces tecum itself.
Mr. Rudiak, the subpena which was served upon you calls for you to
appear personally and to produce before this committee excerpts from
all meetings of the Nationality Committee of V/estem Pennsylvania
during the period January 1, 1952, to October 20, 1956, showing all
action taken and all considerations given to proposals to revise or
repeal the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Do you have those documents under your custody and control ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment, and also the first amend-
ment. I don't deny or admit that I am chairman of the Nationality
Committee of Western Pennsylvania. I don't know of any records.
I don't know of any minutes of any kind. Again I want to say I
claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rudiak, are you now a Communist?
Mr. Rudiak. 1 claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Reuben J.
Hardin?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Under date of June 22, 1955, Reuben J. Hardin swore
before the Subversive Activities Control Board in his testimony that
he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the
truth?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Joe Mankin?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment and tlio first amendment.
Mr. Arens. He is now deceased, isn't he, and he was formerly one
of the officers of the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to a document
which has come into the custody of the committee pursuant to a sub-
pena duces tecum. It is a statement of tlie Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania with reference to a number of legislative
items then pending in the Congress. It is signed "Fraternally yours,
Joseph Rudiak, chairmnn, Joe Mankin, secretary."'
It also announces a picnic to be held by this group. Look at that
document and see if you cannot help this committee identify that
organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 266," see appendix, pp. 7551,
7552.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. "VMiile you are looking at that, I invite your attention
also to another document, calling for a victory by the repeal of the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6437
Walter-McCarran Act, the Tuft-Hartley Act, and otlier aiitilabor
legislation as part of the program of this Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania, and this, likewise, bears the signature with
reference to the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania.
(Document marked "Exhibit Xo. 267," see appendix, pp. 7553,
7554.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the lirst and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now could you help your Government by telling, while
you are under oath, if the Nationality Committee of the Communist
Party of Western Pennsylvania, and the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsjdvania are one and the same entities ?
Mr. KuDiAK. What is the question agairi ^
Mr. Arexs. Yes.
JSIr. EuDiAK. Repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Is the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania
and the Nationality Committee of the Communist Party of Western
Pennsylvania one and the same? Are they one and the same?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Did you appear before the platform committee of the
Democratic Party in Peimsylvania on August 16, 1954 ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Will you repeat that again?
Mr. Arens. Did you appear before tlie platform committee of the
Democratic Party on August 16, 1954?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
^Ir. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest tlie witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. Of coui-se.
You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. EuDiAK. Mr. Chairman, if you can refresh
Mr. iVRENS. Refresh your recollection ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Yes.
Mr. Arens. I am sorry, I thought perhaps you would have an imme-
diate recollection of that. Here is a statement presented to the Demo-
cratic Party platform committee on behalf of the Nationality Com-
mittee of Western Pennsylvania, August 16, 1954, respectfully
submitted, so it says, by Joseph Rudiak, chairman, Nationalit}'^ Com-
mittee of Western Pennsylvania. It calls for a number of things. It
calls for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act, because it denies
everybody's rights, and it has second-class citizenslfip. It calls for
repeal of the Taft-Hartley iVct, and it calls for other legislative
programs.
Wluit I want to ask you is : When you submitted this to the Demo-
cratic platform committee on behalf of the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania, did you make it known to the Democratic
platform committee that you were a Communist agent?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 268," see appendix, p. 7555.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We recognize, of course, your right to ap])e;u- before the
Democratic platform committee, as any citizen's right. We just want
to make sure that when you went in there, you went in under the right
label.
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 20
6438 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RuDLVK. I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Allan McNeil ?
Mr. KuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Allan McNeil was up for deportation here awhile back,
wasn't he ?
Mr. EuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsyl-
vania intercede on behalf of Allan McNeil while he was up for de-
portation as a Communist ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Please look at this next exhibit, that Mr. Appell is
going to show you, in which the Nationality Committee of Western
Pennsylvania is soliciting contributions to help carry on the fight of
Allan McNeil and other local victims of this "Un-American" law, the
Walter-McCarran Act. Look at that and see if it miglit refresh your
recollection. And I want to call to your attention, and particularly
the record's attention, that the Nationality Committee and the Na-
tionality Committee of Western Pennsylvania — in other words, the
Nationality Committee of the Connuunist Party and the Nationality
Committee of Western Pennsylvania both seem to be, by this docu-
ment, located at the same place, 6328 Forbes Street, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Look at the document and see if you can't help your Government by
giving us a little verification of it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 269," see appendix, p. 7556).
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. EuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arfns. Is there som.e relationship between tlie Pemisjh'ania
Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born, and tlie Nationality Com-
mittee of Western Pennsylvania, two organizations ? I just wondered
if you could help us here by telling us whether or not there is an
interlocking relationship there.
I\Ir. EuDL\K. I claim the first amendment and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Maybe this might help us on this, and perhaps you
can give us a little explanation. I see here a statemeiiit issued to the
platform committee of the Democratic Party of Pennsylvania by the
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, Western Pennsyl-
vania Chapter. This is signed by Evelyn Abelson, secretary, and
the address is 6328 Forbes Street. That, you recall, is the address
that was on the previous document of the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania. See if you couldn't clear that up and help
us here — how both organizations woidd happen to have the same
address.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 270," see appendix, p. 7557.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first amendment and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Evelyn Abelson?
i\Ir. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Miss Steinberg ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. And your counsel, did you know him in any way other
than in the relationship of attorney-client?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly suggest to this committee that if you
told us truthfully whether or not you have known your lawyer in
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6439
some capacity other than in the capacity of attorney-client, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
Mr. RuDLVK. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you been president of the ^Vmerican Slav Con-
gress of Western Pennsylvania ?
Mr. EuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have here a document that suggests that, and I want
to invite your attention to it. It is the Slavic American, a quarterly,
the summer of 1948 issue. We will mark this as an exhibit. We
are going to display it to you.
We have celebrated a special event in western Pennsylvania M-liich we feel
merits some attention. Joseph Eudiak, our ASC president, recently honey-
mooned at the Progressive Party convention with his wife, the former Regina
Bakowski, of Pittsburgh. They were married the day before the convention
opened and left for Philadelphia to begin not only their new life together, but
to join with thousands of progressive Americans in forming a new political
party.
Is that you they are talking about here? Is that you they are
talking about?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 27la, b," see appendix, pp. 7558,
7559.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I would like to look at that.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Look at it and see if you can't tell us whether or
not that is you who was president of this Slavic- American organi-
zation.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Does that ring a bell? Does that kind of refresh your
recollection ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments, and I wish
you would have privilege for married people.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I wish you had privilege for married people.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat is your wife's name, just from the standpoint of
identification ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Regina.
Mr. Arens. What was her maiden name ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Bakowski.
Mr. Arens. And were you married in the summer of 1948 ?
Mr. RuDiAK, Yes,
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Are you one of the sponsors of the Civil Rights Congress in Pitts-
burgh, the Pittsburgh Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall when they had the trial down in New
York City of the Communist traitors that were convicted under the
Smith Act, conspiring to overthrow the Government by force and
violence? Do you recall that?
Mr. RuDiAK. What was your question ?
Mr. Arens. Do you recall the incident or the series of incidents,
when the Government prosecuted, and they were convicted, that num-
ber of Communist traitors in New York City, in Judge Medina's court ?
Do you recall that?
Mr. RiTDiAK. What trials?
Mr. Arens. The Smith Act.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
6440 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Do you recall it ? Do you remember it ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. How many cases were there ?
Mr. Arens. A number. Do you recall the principal cases down
there?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. The first one, where they had about 11 or 12 of them up !
Mr. EuDiAK. I read about them.
Mr. Arens. Is that the only thing that you knew about them ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You sent a vigorous protest down there to Judge
Medina against the conviction and jailing of these traitors; did you
not?
Mr. RuDiAK. Well, do you have anything there?
Mr. Arens. Do you deny it?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I don't admit it and I don't deny it.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall also on behalf of the American Slav
Congress of Western Pennsylvania wiring Judge Medina with re-
spect to three Communist leaders, stating "We need no lessons that
you have learned from Hitler Germany," in reference to the jailing
of these Communist traitors ? Do you recall that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. To refresh my recollection, I would like to see the
articles.
Mr. Arens. I just asked you if you recall. I just have one of them
here, but notations on the others.
Show him this, would you please, Mr. Appell. Maybe it will re-
fresh his recollection, and maybe he will be truthful with us and tell
us whether he did it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. It didn't help you at all, then, by looking at that article^
did it?
Now I want to lay before you some other exhibits.
The Committee To Pbotect Joseph Mankin's Citizenship
For further information relative to this case, communicate with Evelyn Abel-
son, 8328 Forbes Street.
(See exhibit No. 2-10, appendix, p. 7501.)
Do you know a Joe Mankin ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What did you do, now, to help stop the denaturalization
of this Communist ? Did you do anything to help stop the denaturali-
zation or try to stop it, I should say ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did I ask you if you know George Dietze?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Dietze swore that he knew you as a Communist.
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I don't think the record is quite clear what it is you do
for a livelihood, besides the extracurricular activities. From what
source is your income?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6441
IVIr. Willis. He said he was a salesmaji.
Mr. Arens. What do you sell ?
Mr. RuDL\K. Specialties.
Mr. Arens. What kind of specialties.
Mr. RuDiAK. Signs.
Mr. Arens. For what company ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Neon signs, and
Mr. Arens. For what company ? What is the name of the company ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I don't work for a company. I am self-employed.
Mr. Willis. Do you have a contract in some way ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Well, I would say that — self-employed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
•the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Willis. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Allan D. McNeil, kindly come forward.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
"will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. McNeil. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALLAN D. McNEIL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Aren. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. McNeil. My name is Allan McNeil. I reside at 344 Ward
Street, Pittsburgh, Pa., and I am unemployed, I might add, thanks
to the series of events of this type.
Mr. Arens. Are you alluding to the investigation which we had
when I was with another committee, the Internal Security Committee,
in Pittsburgh a year or two ago, in which you were called before the
committee and identified repeatedly as a member of the Communist
conspirac}^ and invoked the fifth amendment? Is that what you are
alluding to?
Mr. McNeil. Well, Mr. Arens, you helped.
Mr. Arens. I am very sorry that you feel that way about it, be-
cause we felt we were doing our duty.
Now, Mr. McNeil, you are appearing today in response to a subpena
W'hich was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. With pleasure. I am Hymen Schlesinger, of
Pittsburgh.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. McNeil, you say you are unemployed. I
think that the record here will show that you have been at least oc-
cupied in certain things.
Are you currently secretary to the Committee To End Sedition
Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, I must use the fifth amendment.
6442 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not you are employed at the present time as
secretary to the Committee To End Sedition Laws, you would be
supplying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
Mr. jMcNeil. Mr. Arens, you know very well that is exactly what
you do intend.
Mr. Arens. Mr. McNeil, this subpena which was served upon you
requests you, or orders you, to produce before this committee certain
documents, does it not ?
;Mr. McNeil. Yes, it does.
Mr. Arens. All the minutes, minutes from all the meetings, of the
Committee To End Sedition Laws, during the period of July 1, 1954,
to October 20, 1956
]\Ir. Willis. To end sedition laws ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
And showing all action taken and all consideration given to pro-
posals to repeal the sedition statutes of tlie various States within the
United States.
Do you have those documents here today ?
Mr. McNeil. I am very sorry. I went to a lot of trouble to collect
them, and then unfortunately, we had a disastrous fire. I would like
to introduce this for you to take a look at. The entire building burned
down. "We weren't allo^A'ed to get into look at the thing.
Mr. Arens. When did you start all this trouble to collect these?
Mr. McNeil. Eight after I got the subpena.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go to collect all these docmnents?
Mr. McNeil. The documents were in the office of the committee.
Mr. Arens. And where did you go to get these documents?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. Without admitting or denying any connection
Mr. Arens. Just a minute. You admitted it already. You volun-
teered that you went to collect these documents at the office, and the
office was burned down, or at least somewhere in the process the
records got burned. You just answer the question: Where did
you go to get these documents ? ^
(Document marked "Exhibit 2T2," see appendix, p. Y560.)
Mr. McNeil. Let me please first correct you, if I may. This is
where I learned of the burning.
Mr. Arens. You just answer the principal question in view of the
status of this record. Where did you go to get these documents ?
Mr. McNeil. Personally, I tried to get into this building to do
Mr. Arens. What building ?
Mr. McNeil. The building that burned.
Mr. Arens. Why did you go there?
Mr. McNeil. There was an office there in which the things w^ere
contained. By the way, I might add, some of which were personal.
Mr. Arens. Where was the office? What floor of the building?
Mr. McNeil. It was on the second floor.
1 After the hearings the committee received a letter dated November 29, 1056, from the
United States attorney. Western District, Pa., ■uliich refuted McNeil's testimony concerning
the destruction of the documents.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6443
Mr. Arens. Y/hat is tlie name of the building and the location?
Mr. McNeil. The building is at Wood and Forbes Street and Oak-
land in Pittsburgh.
Mr. Arexs. And did you expect, when you got to that building, to
get the documents called for in this subpena ?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir ; I did not, in view of this story.
Mr. Arens. Were the documents called for in this subpena in the
building Avhich was burned down ?
Mr. McNeil. I would have to try to find that out at that time.
I was going to take the trouble to do that.
Mr. Arens. Did you know in advance that the building did contain
the documents called for in the subpena ?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Arens. What made you go to the building, then, or what made
you think you could go to the building and find them?
Mr. McNeil. Because, obviously, that is the one place where they
might be.
Mr. ^Vrens. Why?
Mr. McNeil. Because the office of the committee was there.
Mr. Arens. What committee?
Mr. McNeil. The Committee To End Sedition Laws.
Mr. Arens. How did you know the office was there ?
Mr. McNeil. Because I had been the secretary in the past.
Mr. Arens. And when did you disassociate yourself from the Com-
mittee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I don't absolutely recollect the date, in truth.
Mr. Arens. You said you had been the secretary of the Committee
To End Sedition Laws. Over what period of time were you a member
of the Committee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. Several months, I presume.
Mr. Arens. Beginning when ?
Mr. McNeil. It is quite clifiicult to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. What year ?
Mr. McNeil. Last year.
Mr. Arens. Was it the spring, summer, winter, fall ?
Mr. McNeil. I suspect it was most of the year.
Mr. Arens. And was that a paid job that you had as secretary of
the Committee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. IMcNeil. No ; it was not. I wish it was.
Mr. Arens. And who was chairman of the Committee To End
Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. No ; I asked who was chairman ?
Who was chairman of the Committee To End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I claim the first and fifth on that, sir.
Mr. Arens. "Wlio got you your job with the Committee To End
Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I give you the same answer, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Who else headquartered the same office with you?
Mr. McNeil. You have the same answer, again, sir.
Mr. Arens. You have admitted that you were secretary of the
Committee to End Sedition Laws. I now ask you to name the other
6444 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
officers during the period of time that you were a member of the
Committee to End Sedition Laws.
Mr. McNeil. I must use the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arents. Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. The cases are
replete with decisions of the courts that once a witness once identifies
himself with reference to an organization he may not invoke the
fifth amendment with reference to tlie other officers of the organiza-
tion.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. The committee, sir, was composed of the people who
came under attack under the Sedition Laws of the State of Penn-
sylvania.
Mr. Arens. And wlio are they ?
Mr. McNeil. And, incidentally, not all of them. Mr. Nelson was
one.
Mr. Arens. Steve Nelson?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Abens. Yes?
Mr. McNeil. And Mr. Careathers ?
Mr. Arens. Is that Ben Careathers?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir.
Mr. McNeil. And in absentia the others who were under the same
attack. As I recall it, it was Mr. Dolsen, who later on went to Phila-
delphia, or some place.
Mr. Arens. Anybody else?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Then the w^hole Committee to End Sedition Laws con-
sists of less than a half-dozen people, is that correct ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And did anyone else besides yourself actually head-
quarter at the headquarters of the Committee to End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. First and fifth on this, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, may I interject a question there?
At what time was this committee form.ed to end sedition laws?
Mr. McNeil. As I recollect, Mr. Velde, it goes back to the begin-
ning of last year.
Mr. Velde. It was after Steve Nelson was convicted of sedition, is
that correct?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct. It was in the process of his appeal
to the courts.
Mr. Velde. Where is Steve Nelson now ?
Mr. McNeil. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr. Arens. Well, now, who financed this Committee To End Sedi-
tion Laws?
Mr. McNeil. You have forced me to use the first and fifth on this.
Mr. Arens. It wasn't financed by the American Legion and the
Council of Churches, was it ?
Mr. McNeil. Perhaps you can answer that.
Mr. Arens. \^ou tell us. Was it financed by the Communist Party?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, Mr, Arens.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6445
Mr. Arens. And what was the purpose of the Committee To End
Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I will take the first and fifth, again, on that one.
Mr. Arens. Now what did this Committee To End Sedition Laws
do?
Mr. McNeil. On this question, too, Mr. Arens
Mr. Arens. Did the Committee To End Sedition Laws have affili-
ates in other cities or was it the only committee that you knew about
to end sedition laws?
Mr. McNeil, I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did you have a successor as secretarv of the Committee
To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I cannot answer that question. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Who was your superior in the organization ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any employees ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
]^Ir. Arens. Was the Committee To End Sedition Laws incorpo-
rated or was it just a committee without any status by legal procedure?
Mr. McNeil. No traps, Mr. Arens. I use the first and fifth on
that, too.
Mr. Arens. I don't understand what you said there. Was there
a pro forma degree of incorporation ?
Mr. McNeil. No.
Mr. Arens. Was it a corporation ?
Mr. McNeil. No.
Mr. Arens. It was not. Now, tell us who met at the founding
meeting of this Committee To End Sedition Laws, or was there a
founding meeting?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did the gentleman to your left, Mr. Schlesinger, have
anything to do with the Committee To End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Was he one of the organizers of the committee?
Mr. McNeil. I will give j^ou the same answer.
Mr. Arens. What did the Committee To End Sedition Laws do
toward ending the sedition laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I vv'ill use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens- Is the Committee To End Sedition Laws still in effect?
Mr. McNeil. I will give you the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. When did you last physically appear in the office of the
Committee To End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I will give you the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. What precipitated your disassociation from the Com-
mittee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I give you the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered to answer that question. He has said he was secretary and
he says he is no longer secretary.
Mr. Willis. I will direct you to answer.
Mr. McNeil. Under direction, I will answer. I was unemployed,
and I was tempted to find employment. It is that simple.
Mr. Arens. You were unemployed while you were secretary of the
Committee To End Sedition Laws ?
6446 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ]\IcNeil. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And then what did you do, just, voluntarily resign?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens. I
have answered the question asked.
Mr. Arens. We are back where we started. Was your disassocia-
tion from the Committee To End Sedition Laws voluntary or
involuntary ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. I will direct you to answer.
Mr. McNeil. It was voluntary.
Mr. Arens. '\^niere and when were you bom ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, too.
Mr. Arens. Wliere were you born ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, sir.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Have vou used any name other than the name of
Allan McNeil ?
Mr. McNeil. Excuse me.
Mr. Arens. Let's start over again in this last series of questions,
then. ^'\^iere were you born?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. When were you born?
]\Ir. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, too.
Mr. Arens. Have you used any name in your life other than the
name Allan McNeil ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth on that.
]Mr. Arens. Have you ever used the name of Allen Johnson ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Suppose you could help us here? We have a picture,
a photograph, of Major Johnson, "bids farewell to the men in Spain
in Barcelona, in 1938" and it is signed Allen Johnson. This Major
Johnson in this farewell address tells what all he has done over there
helping the Communists fight in Spain. Curiously enough, it is a
photograph that looks quite like you. I wonder if you could look at
that and help us and tell us if that photograph might be you.
(Photograph marked "Exhibit No. 273," in bound volume. Volun-
teers for liberty, retained in committee files.)
Mr. McNeil. I will be very glad to look at it, sir.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon?
Mr. McNeil. I will be very glad to look at it.
Mr. Arens. Will you tell us whether or not that is you ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, Mr. McNeil, that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not that photograph which is being
displayed to you is a pliotograph of yourself, you would be supplying
information which might be used against you in a criminal proceed-
ing?
Mr. ]\IcNeil. Mr. Arens, my experience with you and with other
people who have investigations leads me to believe that that would
be true.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. You have had rather sorry experiences
with investigating committees, haven't you?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6447
Mr. McNeil. And with you, yes, indeed, I have.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
T have a war bulletin here, a war bulletin issued over in Spain, by
Maj. Allen Johnson, and this war bulletin has all kinds of material
in it showing what all the Nazis are doing, and also jumping on the
Hearst papers, all signed by Maj. Allen Johnson.
Look at this war bulletin from over there that we got by legal
means, from Spain, and tell this committee whether or not you are
the person who prepared that war bidletin over there.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 274," see appendix, p. 7561.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the iirst and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the big officers of the conference
to aid Spain?
Mr. jNIcNeil. I don't even know what you are talking about.
Mr. Abens. The Committee To Aid Spanish Democracy, would
you know about that?
]Mr. McNeil. I heard about it in the papers, but that is all.
iSIr. Arens. Is that the only way you heard about it ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Phil Bard?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. It is a curious thing if you don't know anything about
the Committee To Aid Spanish Democracy. We have here a letter,
Mr. McNeil, signed by Allen Johnson, addressed to Phil Bard, and
this letter, according to its letterhead, originated and was initiated in
Spain, at JNIadrid. Look at that letter and tell us whether or not this
is your signature on this letter addressed to Phil Bard.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 275,'' see appendix, p. 7562.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. I want you to be sure you don't get into trouble with
the committee in that respect, or any other difficulty.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Then maybe you do know something about the Commit-
tee To Aid Spanish Democracy. Do you have any recollection now
that you have seen this letter?
Mr. McNeil. Candidly I don't. I am not trying to equivocate,
either.
Mr. x\rens. Do you know Stephen J. Eudich?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Stephen Rudich identified you just last year before
this committee as a person known by him to be a member of the Com-
munist Party. Was liudich lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. You have never broken away from the Communist con-
spiracy; have you?
Mr. McNeil. I will again use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us something about this District Six
Committee to Defend Allan D. McNeil ? Did you have anything to do
with the formation of that committee?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth amendments, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know anj'thing about the committee?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth amendments, sir.
6448 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I have here a document that I want to display to you —
"Defend Labor, Defend UE, Defend ^McNeil, issued by the District
Six Committee to Defend Allan D. McNeil."
It is a protest instructing the Attorney General to instruct the
Immigration Department to cease harassing McNeil. Was the Immi-
gration and Naturalization Service harassing you?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 276a-d," see appendix, pp. 7563-
7566.)
Mr. McNeil,. You may call it what you will, Mr. Arens. I was on
the receiving end.
Mr. Arens. Were they trying to deport you ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Arens. Why were they trying to deport you ?
Mr. McNeil. Your guess is as good as mine.
Mr. Arens. Well, were you a Communist?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. You received charges from the Immigration and
Naturalization Service under this terrible, terrible, terrible Immigra-
tion and Naturalization Act, the Walter-McCarran Act, didn't you?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on all questions relating
to deportation proceedings, sir.
]Mr. Arens. I have another document here that seems to revolve a
little bit around you : 40 million people, all in jeopardy because of the
Walter-McCarran Act. A typical illustration of why they are all in
jeopardy is because Allan McNeil has been identified by six different
stool pigeons as a Communist.
It says :
Beware of all stool pigeons. We must not turn the clock back.
This is all issued by the District Council Six Defense Committee of
the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 277a-d," see appendix, pp. 7567-
7570.)
Were you ever with the UE ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use first and fifth on that, too, sir.
Mr. Arens. And were you with the District Council Six Defense
Committee ?
Mr. McNeh.. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Do a^ou know a man by the name of John Butler?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. He identified you as a Communist. Was he lying or
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. McNeil. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. I have another letter here I want to ask you about. It
is on the letterhead of the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade,
June 2, 1954, and it is signed by Moe Fishman, addressed to "Dear
Allan."
Well, the encampment and the commemoration are over. What stood out for
both was a larirer number of our guys who turned out for both.
It t^lls all about the work of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and
then starts jumping into the stool pigeons again.
So far every stoolie down there has tied your name into the picture. Harvey,
Mickenberg, and Gladnick have you on a commission on the 5th floor * * *.
They have you as second in command * * *.
But you will get more on this in the next vol. also — I hope.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6449
Look at that letter, now, and see if you can't help us decipher who
this fellow Moe Fisliman is, and why he would be writing to you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 278," see appendix, pp. 7571,
7572.)
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I would like to protest the fact that this letter appar-
ently has been intercepted or stolen from someplace.
Mr. Arexs. How did you know that? What makes you suggest
that t
Mr. McNeil. Because it is addressed
Mr. Arexs. Does it look like it is an original letter, or is it a bogus
letter?
Mr. McNeil. No, it looks like an original.
Mr. Arexs. Is it a bona fide letter?
Mr. ]McNeil. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Did you receive that letter ?
Mr. McNeil. I do not even remember that.
Mr. Arexs. Look at it and see if vou can recall. Do you know the
autlior of that letter?
Mr. McNeil. If you will excuse me, I will use the first and fifth
amendment on all matters dealing with this organization.
Mr. Velde. Mr. McNeil, I do not know whether counsel has asked
3'Ou or not, but were you a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?
Mr. McNeil. On that question, too, Mr. Velde, I must use the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Vei,de. Were you a comrade of Steve Nelson during that time ?
Mr. McNeil. xVgain, sir, you have the same reply from me.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever meet Palmiro Togliatti?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I have the same reply.
Mr. Velde. I think it sliould be stated for the record that the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade has also been classified by the Attorney
General and the Un-American Activities Committee as a subversive
organization.
Mr. Arexs. Yes. It was inspired and controlled by the Communist
world conspiracy.
Mr. McNeil. Are you asking for opinion ?
Mr. Arexs. You can tell us.
Was the Abraham Lincoln Brigade controlled by the Communists?
Mr. McNeil. No, I thought you were asking for an opinion.
Mr. Arexs. Do you care to express your opinion as to whether or
not it was controlled by the Communist conspiracy?
?>Ir. JMcNeil. Well, the papers tell me it has been cited. The papers
don't tell me that it has been convicted. In the meanwhile, it seems
that you gentlemen proceed with all of these organizations, all of
them, on the general sweeping basis that once Mr. Brownell categorizes
them, they are, therefore, ipso facto
Mr. Arexs. If we are wrong, you tell us. Was the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade not controlled by the Communists? You seem to have a little
information about it there. I want to see if you can't help your
Government.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I think it is a question. My protest is a general
one.
Mr. Arexs. Let's get specific first, and then we will get to the gen-
eralities. Let's get specific about the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.
6450 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
You want to protest that being described as a subversive organization.
You luive that right and we welcome your protest. Tell us on what
you base your knowledge about the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Do
you have personal experience in that regard ?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, you are not going to trap me. You tried
it before. I will tell you simply I will use the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
No^^• I want to allude to this letter, addressed to "Dear Allan."
That is the letter you protest us having. It is by Moe Fishman. Do
you want the letter back ?
Mr, McNeil, I don't even know that it is my letter, candidly, be-
cause I did not
Mr. Arexs. Do you know the author of the letter, Moe Fishman?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I use the first and fifth again.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
Gladuick already appeared on the scene last week and was tbe last witness-
before the recess till June 7. We used some of the material he had testified too
[sic] at your hearing and have only now — a little late — become aware that there
may be some trouble on that since it seems you are not supposed to use material
from immigration hearings someone told us. We are checking further— but
am afraid the milk has been spilt, since Milt (who won the right to cross-
examine) indicated the material was from those hearings. We will let you
know if anything develops on this here — but fear it may be used against your
attorney in Pitts. Let me know if anything develops.
Who was your attorney in Pittsburgh ?
Mr. McNeil. I don't even know in what case or what situation you
are referring to. I will be very frank, I don't even know
Mr. Arens. We want 3^011 to be frank, we want you to be very
frank.
Now, this exhibit we lay before you is entitled "Fact Sheet on
Lincoln Brigade Veterans Under Attack." It is a fact sheet on
all of these veterans of the Lincoln Brigade, who are under attack, and
a call for everyone to write the President and the Attorney General,
demanding amnesty for a niunber of people including Steve Nelson,.
and Lincoln Battalion Commissar, Irving Weissman; Saul Wellman;
Allan McNeil ; John Gates ; Robert Thompson.
Allan (Alan) McNeil is described here as —
Served in the American Army before going to Spain. Served as major in Spain.
Outstanding trade union leader and organizer for the United Electrical Workers.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 279," see appendix, p. 7573.)
Is that you ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and the fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. You know, Mr. McNeil, as a witness here you are
entitled to certain witness fees, but to do so you have to sign a little
voucher.
I respectfully request, Mr. Chairman, in view of what I am going to
say, that if IMr. ^IcNeil signs his pay voucher for his witness fees, that
his signature from that voucher be incorporated in this record, because
I am going to ask him about some documents that do have his signature
on tliem.
Mr. Willis. That will be the procedure.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a letter signed just Allan, addressed to
"Dear Evelyn," June 18, 1954.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6451
That is Evelyn Abelson, the preceding witness.
I received the attached letter by registered mail today from the Immigration
Service. This will make the fourth time hearings have been held on my ease.
They no longer allow any substantial time element either * * *
Please note that Yee has received a copy of this letter from the Service.
May I suggest that before the hearing a letter along the lines of the attached
draft go out to at least the list of the people who previously supported me.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 280 a-d," see appendix, pp.
7674-7578.)
Next is a letter addressed to "My dear friends." (See exhibit No.
280c, appendix, p. 7576.)
I want you to tell us whether that is your signature, on the letter
which you sent to Evelyn Abelson, of this Communist-controlled
organization. (See exliibit No. 280b, appendix, p. 7575.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. Before I officially use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens,
I want to again
;Mr. Arens. Do you propose to use the first and fifth ?
Mr. McNeil. Once again I want to call attention to the fact that
somebody has been in somebody's files. Tliis is stealing. It is plain,
ordinary theft, and two wrongs do not make a right, Mr. Arens, in
anybod3''s world.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to set everybody right now by telling us
that that is your signature?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, I told you I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Do 3'Ou want to surmise that maybe the comniittee might
have come into custody of this material in a perfectly legitimate and
lawful manner by a subpena dii.ces tecum within the right of tiiis
committee ?
Mr. McNeil. You might very well have, but somebody else stole
it, then, and you are dealing with a thief.
Mr. AjiENS. What makes you think tliat somebody stole that mail?
Mr. McNeil. Because you are taking the mail.
Mr. Arens. Look at that signature and tell us if it is a bona fide
signature. ]\laybe we made it up in the back room.
Mr. McNeil. Here we go again, Mr. Arens. I use the first and
fifth.
Mr. Arens. Of course you will.
Mr. McNeil. That is right.
Mr. Arens. I forgot. There is one other little thing. In connection
with that letter, I have a statement in the JMcNeil case which appar-
ently accompanied that letter. It tells what a great hero this man
was, this man McNeil, all about what a great hero he was in Spain,
hoAv he is being maligned and attacked by the Government, the Gov-
ernment's case is weak, and that all we iieed is money. If we have
money, and determination, we can defeat these Fascists who are out
to persecute this innocent man McNeil with the splendid record.
Look at this and tell us if you ]>repared that document vourself to
send to Evelyn Abelson, the Comnninist, to get her to reproduce it
and send it to a number of people over the country to enlist funds to
help you.
(See exhibit No. 280d, appendix, p. 7576.)
(The \A itness conferred with his counsel.)
6452 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. McNeil, No. 1, I don't recognize it for mine. No. -2, even if
it were, sir, I would be compelled to use the first and the fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Let me read you still another letter. This is an orig-
inal letter in handwriting. It is just addressed to "PLvelyn" and
signed "Allan."
This is a good order. You did a good job. As a victory, lemporary but still
a victory.
(See exhibit No. 21-1, api)endix, p. 7502.)
You know, Mr. McNeil, 1 am having difficulty reading this writing.
Persons do have difficulty reading hand vrri ting of other people.
Would you kindly read the letter to the committee ? You can help
us. We have difficulty translating it,
Mr. McNeil. I am sorry, I can't read it myself. I nuist use the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you recognize the signature?
Mr. McNeil. No, I don't, sir.
Mr. Arens. You don't recognize the signature ? Do you deny the
signature ?
Mr. McNeil. No, I didn't do that. I just said I didn't recognize or
not recognize. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. You have been a great fighter for peace, haven't you ?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed to fight for peace, are you? It is
a laudable objective.
Mr. McNeil. Are you asking a personal opinion, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Yes,
Mr. McNeil. Why, Mr. Arens, I would be delighted, and always
have been — I think my record stands on that question
Mr. Arens. We want to talk about your record as a fighter for peace.
I am glad you mentioned that.
Mr. McNeil, Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. In the Communist Daily Peoples World of September
23, 1952, there is an article demanding a cease fire. It is a highlight
of a UE meeting in Cleveland, Ohio. It is a convention of the United
Electrical Workers. Among the fi.ghters for peace, part of your
record that you just alluded to, was delegate Allan McNeil of Pitts-
burgh, Local 623, who is quoted here as saying :
There is nothing we can do to put into action the splendid program of this
union if we fail to fight for peace.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 281," see appendix, p. 7579,)
Were you a participant in that program for peace of the Com-
munist controlled United Electrical Workers Union session in Cleve-
land in 1952?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. That is only part of this record you are talking about,
that you would be very glad to have revealed to the world.
Now I have still another document — we will be through here pretty
soon, Mr. INIcNeil — a copy of a letter from the Committee To End
Sedition Laws, addressed to "Dear Brothers,'' November 19, 1954.
What brothers did you have in the Committee To End Sedition
LaAvs? Is it a fraternal organization with many brothers in it?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 282a, b," see appendix, pp. 7580,
7581.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6453
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arexs. Look at this letter now and see if you can't help us a
little bit. It is signed by "Allan D. McNeil, Secretary, Fraternally
yours, the Committee to End Sedition Laws."
Mr. McNeil. "While I am delighted to take a look at it, Mr. Arens,
I told you already that on any material in connection with this mat-
ter I would use the first and fifth on, and I am giving that reply now.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Louis Goldblatt ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. After you were proceeded against by the Lnmigration
Service, you solicited a number of letters, did you not, from Com-
munist-controlled organizations, commending you for being such a
wonderful person ; isn't that correct ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let's look at a few of them. Here is a letter dated
June 30, 1953, from Louis Goldblatt, of the International Long-
shoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, addressed to "Dear Sir and
Brother."
That commends Brother Allan McNeil.
How unfortunate it is that the Immigration Service is harassing
him. Look at that letter and see if you have ever seen it before, and
tell us whether or not you solicited that letter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 283," see appendix, p. 7682.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I must, use the first and the fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you the district representative of the United Elec-
trical Workers ?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, in connection with the union, I shall use the first
and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Was this union not a union, but was it, on the other
hand, an instrumentality of the Communist conspiracy masquerading
as a labor organization ?
Mr. McNeil. ^Vhile I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens, I think it is
most unfortunate
Mr. Arens. Then just answer the question. Was the UE controlled
by the Communist Party?
' Mr. McNeil. Sir, while I have to use the first and fifth
Mr. Arens. You don't have to use it. We prefer you not use it,
unless you fear criminal consequences. Tell us, was the UE of
which you were the district representative- — —
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, bad manners are inexcusable anyplace.
Mr. Arens. Certainly.
Mr. McNeil. You asked me a question and you asked me to answer
it.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Did I intrude ? I beg your pardon. I apologize.
Now, please answer the principal question. We have the apology
set. Was the UE controlled by the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, sir, and file a protest at
you maligning the labor movement in this general manner.
Mr. Arens. Let's clear that point up. Was the UE and is the
UE a legitimate bona fide labor organization representing the interests
of the working people or is it, on the other hand, to your certain
85333— 57— pt. 1 21
6454 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
knowledge controlled by persons who are in the Communist con-
spiracy ?
Mr, McNeil. The only reason I do what I am going to do
Mr. Arens. Just answer that question. I have to intrude. I don't
mean to use bad manners. Just answer the question.
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, you be as polite as I am about this.
Mr. Arens. I apologize again. Just answer the question.
Mr. McNeil. I will most certainly do that.
Mr. Arexs. All right, do it.
j\Ir. McNeil. However, I want to tell you that tlie unions in this
country ai'e genuine. But I am compelled, because you are trying to
trap me, to use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Wasn't the UE thrown out of the CIO, because the
CIO found it was Communist controlled?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I am using the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Why don't you, in great politeness, tell us whether or
not you were a member of the Communist conspiracy when you were
district representative of the United Electrical Workers ?
Mr. McNeil. Again, I will use the first and fifth for you, IVIr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. When you were with the UE, did you prepare a docu-
ment "They want to turn the clock back" attacking Senators Jenner
and McCarran, Senator Taft, and, among others, the distinguished
member of this committee, who is present here today, Mr. Velde ? Did
you do that while you were with the UE ? Did you prepare this leaflet
that I now lay before you, with this organization that you have de-
scribed as a legitimate, bona fide labor organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 284a-d," see appendix, pp. 7583-
7586.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did you prepare this one : "For a living Bill of Rights,"
issued by District 6, United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of
America, Pittsburgh, Pa. Did you prepare that while j^ou were
with UE ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 285a-d," see appendix, pp. 7587-
7590.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to a document we
have only photographed 2 or 3 pages of. It is a magazine, the March
of Labor, and which has been identified and characterized by this
committee after extensive, careful investigation as a Communist-con-
trolled publication, the March of Labor. "40 million Americans
threatened. Repeal the McCarran-Walter Act. It is a law against
the people."
One of the reasons why it is a law against tlie ])eople is because of
the case of Allan McNeil, UE representative in Pittsburgh.
"Though born in Minnesota, McNeil was being threatened with de-
portation to Scotland."
Look at that and see if you are the Allan McNeil alluded to in that
publication.
(See exhibit No. 36a-c, appendix, pp. 7148-7150.)
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I must use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arexs. There is just a question or two we Avant to clear up and
then we will conclude, Mr. McNeil.
Were you born in the United States of America or outside the United
States of America ?
Mr. McNeil. Again I use the first and fifth.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6455
Mr. Arens. Were you born in the Western Hemisphere or the
Eastern Hemisphere ?
Mr. McNeil. Again I use the first and fifth. You are back again
to the old game, Mr. Arens. You did this once before.
Mr. Arens. You don't have something to hide ; do you ?
Mr. McNeil. I have as much patience as you have, sir.
jMr. Arens. I beg your pardon?
Mr. McNeil. I have as much patience as you have.
Mr. Arens. What did you tell the Inmiigration Service was your
place of birth ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. You told the Immigration Service you were born in
the United States of America, and that you were a native-born
citizen of this country ; didn't you ?
Mr. McNeil. Are you expressing an opinion ?
jNIr. Arens. I am asking a question and you know I am asking a
question.
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever had a passport issued by this Govern-
ment to travel abroad ?
j\Ir. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Why Avould you use the first and fifth in connection with
a passport, unless you have been doing a little monkey business with
a passport ?
INlr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, you know certainly well why I use the
first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. I certainly do, because you have been engaged in fraudu-
lent activities with a passport.
Mr. McNeil. You are making allegations, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Deny under oath that you have not falsified your pass-
port application.
Mr. McNeil, I am not going to have you send me to jail just like
that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. I am not sending vou to jail, I am asking a question.
Mr. McNeil. The first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. I have no questions, as I believe our veiy able counsel
has done everything possible to get whatever information possible, and
tlie witness being an oldtimer ( -onnnunist obviously knows his way
around. I see no need of going further in this matter.
Mr. Willis. We Avill take a 5-minute informal recess.
(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis and
Velde.)
(Brief recess.)
(Present after tlie taking of the recess: Rei^resentatives Willis and
Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
The Chair wishes to make this statement.
Before we adjourn this series of hearings of the Conunitlee on Un-
American Activities, I would like to recapitulate briefly some of the
things of particular significance and importance which we believe
that we have develo))ed here, I speak for both my colleague. Repre-
sentative Velde, and myself, when I say that tlie hearings, in our
judgment, have b;}eu very constructive.
6456 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
We have learned, for example, of one more part of the wide&pread
Communist underground apparatus directed by dedicated hard core
men and women. We have received evidence of the Commmiist tech-
niques of infiltration, conspiracy, and potential sabotage and espion-
age. We have been able to determine that despite the Ohio Smith Act
trials of several years ago, which, it was hoped, would decapitate the
leadership of the Communist Party in this area, the Communist or-
ganization has been able to maintain and even extend itself, and stands
today as a grave and continuing threat.
This is proof, again, that no single blow is sufficient to dissolve and
immobilize the Communist conspiracy, and that continuing and re-
lentless efforts by agencies of this Government, such as this committee,
are essential.
Communist propaganda continues to flood tliis area, through con-
cealed Communists and through front organizations. The purpose
of these Communist activities is to confuse and weaken the will to
resist the Communist advances, and to destroy the executive and legis-
lative program which has been designed to obstruct the operation of
a Communist apparatus in this area and throughout the entire United
States.
One of the most interesting results of these hearings, I believe, has
been the identification of the Ohio and Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittees for Protection of Foreign Born, as integral components of the
parent American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The American Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom was iden-
tifiied several years ago by the Attorney General of the United States
as a Communist subversive organization in proceedings before the
Subversive Activities Control Board. The American committee
maintained that the various regional affiliates, like the Ohio and west-
ern Pennsylvania committees, were independent organizations. The
testimony that we have heard today, together with the material un-
earthed by our investigation, proves conclusively for the first time that
the regional organizations, like the Ohio and western Pennsylvania
committees, and hundreds of others like them, are all a part of the
vast apparatus of political subversion controlled, directed and staffed
by the Communist Party of the United States.
^ The underlying purpose of the hearings of the Committee on Un-
American Activities is to develop information necessary for the rec-
ommendation of new legislation, or the amendment of existing
legislation designed to combat communism. In this regard, its first
duty is to report its findings to the Congress. But beyond this obli-
gation, it performs a highly valuable function in making the people
of a particular community aware of the Communist conspirators and
the Connnunist apparatus which exists among them.
I am quite sure that the information which the people of Youngs-
town and its neighboring areas received during the course of these
hearings will give them a heightened appi-eciation of the continuing
efforts of the Conmiunist conspiracy to subvert and ultimately to de-
stroy their governnieut and institutions.
The Connnittee on Un-American Activities, as you know, has no
prosecutor role. It does not try people, regardless of how deeply
they may be enmeshed in Communist activities. Nevertheless, I think
it is significant to point out in this connection that all of the laws
which make the prosecution of Communist conspirators possible have
resulted from hearings like these, on the basis of which the Congress
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6457
was able to formulate and enact necessary legislation. "Without the
laws adopted by the Congress, the punishment of quislings, like those
who we have been seeing parade before the committee during the past
few days, would be impossible.
Before we conclude, I would like to express our thanks to the various
people who have helped in the arrangement of these hearings. Those
include Chief Judge Paul Jones, and his staff, who permitted the use
of his courtroom ; Marshal Zavier North, of Cleveland, and his able
deput,v, Matthew Wansack, of Youngstown; the Youngstown Chief
of Police Paul Kress, and his entire department; Postmaster John E.
Dojde, and his secretary, Miss Schorndorf er ; and many others who
have given us very freely of their time and cooperation.
Of course, I particularly want to include the members of the press,
and the members of the radio and television fraternity in this area.
I am wondering if my colleague, Mr. Velde, a former chairman of
the full Committee on Un-American Activities, would care to say a
few words.
Mr. Velde. Yes, Mr, Chairman.
First of all I would like to have the privilege of associating myself
with 3'ou in that very fine statement, and to thank the people of this
area for the very courteous treatment they have given us. I also
want to say to you, Mr. Chairman, that I commend you on the fair
mamier in wliich you handled these hearings here in Youngstown, and
I agree with you that we did elicit very much information which will
be valuable to the Committee on Un-American Activities and the
Congress in promulgating legislation to handle the Communist
menace.
As you know, I chose not to run again for reelection, and I suppose
this will be the last time that I will have the opportunity to serve with
you and our staff. I want to say it has been a pleasure and privilege
over the last few years of being with you on the Un-American Activ-
ities Committee.
Mr. Willis. Let me say that your decision not to return to Con-
gress was a disappointment to all your colleagues in the Congress, but
particularly to your associates on this very vital committee, which has
charge of trying to combat, control, and, we hope, ultimately to exter-
minate all subversive activities in our great land.
Mr. Velde. Thank you very kindly.
Mr. Willis. I wish, on behalf of our colleagues on the committee,
to wish you the best of luck and success in your new chosen field of
endeavor.
Mr, Velde. Thank j^ou.
I think it miglit not be out of the way, also, to say a few words of
commendation about our very able staff. I think Mr. Arens has
demonstrated a legal ability of a very high type in handling the
examination of all the witnesses that we have had here in Young-s-
town. Of course, if it had not been for the assistance given by the
very able investigators, Donald Appell and George Williams,' that
would not have been possible. I wish to include in my connnendation
Mr. Richard Weil, who has also been of great assistance. These men
have all done excellent jobs.
Mr. Willis. This will conclude the hearings.
(Thereupon, at 5 p. m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene
pursuant to the call of the chairman.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
MONDAY, DECEMBER 3, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Chicago^ III.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in room 209,
Federal courthouse, Chicago, 111., Hon. James B. Frazier, Jr. (chair-
man of the subcommittee) , presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives James B. Frazier, Jr.,
of Tennessee; Harold H. Velde, of Illinois; Donald L. Jackson, of
California ; and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; Donald T. Appell,
investigator ; and Richard S. Weil, staff member.
(Present at the time of convening: Representatives James B. Fra-
zier, Jr., Harold H. Velde, Donald L. Jackson, and Gordon H.
Scherer. )
Mr. Frazier. The subcommittee will come to order.
This morning the Committee on Un-American Activities, through a
subcommittee composed of Representatives Velde, Jackson, Scherer,
and myself, as chairman, continues its series of hearings on Commu-
nist political subversion — that is, the attempts of the Communist Party
and its confederate organizations to destroy the security programs of
the legislative and executive branches of the Government.
The Committee on Un-American Activities has already conducted
hearings on this topic in Washington and other cities. The evidence
received by the committee thus far presents an appalling picture of a
concerted effort by the Communist Party of the United States and the
Soviet Union to strip this Nation of its vital weapons of defense
against ultimate overthrow by an alien conspiracy.
In the hearings now opening in Chicago the committee expects to
hear about 20 witnesses.
Among the principal focuses of our investigation here are the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and its accessory
organizations in this area. These include the Midwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and the INIichigan Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
These instruments of the Communist Party and numerous front
groups created and controlled by them are determined to emxasculate
our immigration and nationality laws of the provisions which make
possible the deportation of Communist agents who have obtained resi-
dence in the United States.
6459
6460 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The hearings of the committee thus far have demonstrated beyond
a doubt that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born is under the exclusive domination of the Communist Party of
the United States, and that the American committee, in turn, directs
the activities of its various components despite the claim of the
American committee that tlie regional organizations are independent.
Our committee is also seeking further information on the efforts of
the Communist Party to destroy the Smith Act, the Internal Security
Act, the Communist Control Act, and similar legislation.
It has come to the attention of the Committee on Un-American
Activities that the Communist Party in this area is preparing a sur-
prise reception for us : specifically, that the Communists are solicit-
ing petitions of protest from various non-Communist organizations in
an attempt to make the security laws themselves, rather than the activi-
ties of the Communist Party, the subject of these hearings.
I would like to stress that these hearings do not concern the merits
or lack of merits of any particular law.
Our purpose here is not to participate in legislative controversy,
but solely to examine the vast program of Communist propaganda,
infiltration, and subversion against these laws.
Let no one underestimate the extent of the problem. The testimony
before this committee has already established the fact that the Com-
munist Party throughout the United States has created literally
hundreds of separate front organizations to accomplish its illicit pur-
poses of political subversion.
In the neighboring State of Michigan alone some 80 separate organi-
zations have been created by the Communist Party for its campaign
just against the Immigration and Nationality Act.
We are confident that the information which the committee obtains
during this series of hearings will reveal to the American people the
extent of this political subversion by the agents of the Kremlin, and
will enable us to sponsor legislative recommendations to aid the Gov-
ernment of tlie United States further in combating the operation of
the Communist apparatus.
You people are here as the guests of the committee. The committee
will not tolerate any outburst or expression from the spectators and
guests here either favorably or unfavorably. Are you ready, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Frazier. Call your first witness.
Mr, Arens, Mr, Saul Grossman. Kindly come forward. Please
remain standing, Mr. Grossman, while the chairman administers an
oath to you.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony to be given will be the truth, the whole truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Grossman, I do,
Mr. Frazier. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF SAUL GROSSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
GEORGE W. CROCKETT, JR.
Mr. Arens, Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6461
Mr, G'ROSSMAN. My name is Saul Grossman. I reside at 2945
Tusedo, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. Mr Grossman, you are appearing in response to a sub-
pena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities?
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Grossman. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Grossman. I am.
Mr. x\rens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Crockett. George W. Crockett, Jr., attorney-at-law, 3220
Cadillac Tower, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Grossman, I don't believe that the record reflects
accurately your occupation. Would you kindly tell us your oc-
cupation.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us why ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question as well.
Mr. Arens. Mr Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gross:man, I decline to answer that question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this
committee truthfully what your present occupation is you would be
supplying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I think we should advise the witness
that if he does not answer that question "Yes'' or "No," in accordance
with a decision of the Supreme Court of this country, he would be
subjecting liimself to contempt.
The question is whether he is, in good faith. That is the question
asked by counsel — whether he is, in good faith, reljdng on the fifth
amendment. That is the question put to him. So he must answer that
question "Yes" or "No." He cannot decline to answer that question
on the basis of the fifth amendment. I am merely making the state-
ment to warn the witness that, in view of that decision, he is placing
himself in contempt.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Is there a question?
Mr. Arens. So there may be no question about the status of this
record, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness now be
ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not he
6462 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
honestly apprehends that if he told this committee truthfully what
his present occupation is he would be supplying information which
might be used against him in a criminal proceeding.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. You are so directed.
Mr. Grossman. I understand that all that question asked for is a
statement from me that the answer to such a question may incriminate
me. And I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, the subpena pursuant to wliich
you are appearing today requires you to bring certain documents and
to produce those before this committee ; does it not ?
Mr. Grossman. Yes.
Mr. Aeexs. Do you have in your custody and control the documents
called for in the subpena ?
Mr. Grossman. The subpena served upon me, on November 21
Mr. Arens. Just answer that question, please.
Mr. Grossman. I am answering that question.
Mr. Arens. Yv'e don't want a read statement. Just tell us now:
Do you have the custody and control of the documents called for in
this subpena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I have the answer to that question
written out, and it is very brief.
Mr. Arens. Tell us "Yes" or "No" whether or not you have custody
and control of the documents called for in the subpena.
Mr. Frazier. Just answer the question "Yes" or "No," whether or
not you have them.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I have the custody and control of the documents
which T brought vrith me.
Mr. Arens. Would you now transmit to the custody of the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities the documents called for in the
subpena duces tecum which was served upon you.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I will do so under the condition set forth in this
statement.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect that the witness is ordered now to transmit the custody and
control of these documents to the custody of the Committee on Un-
American Activities.
Mr. Frazier. You are so directed.
Mr. Grossman. I am answering that question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Frazier. Are you delivering the documents to the committee
or are you refusing to deliver them ?
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, may this statement be marked for
identification ?
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly tell us, first of all, who prepared the
statement that you have in your right hand and which you started to
read?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. It was prepared in collaboration with my attorney,
Mr.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6463
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the name of every Communist who, to
your certain knowledge, participated in the preparation of that state-
ment ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this wit-r
ness be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question based on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be, here and now, ordered to transmit to the custody of the com-
mittee the documents in his possession and in his control and in his
custody which are called for in the subpena which was served upon
him.
Mr. Frazier. You are so ordered.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I again ask that this statement be
marked for identification. It indicates the materials I am offering
to the committee.
Mr. Arens. Does that list them? Enumerate them?
Mr. Grossman. It does refer to them; yes. I would like to have
it marked for identification.
Mr. Jackson. May the committee see the statement in question?
Mr. Arens. May I take a look at it?
(Document handed to committee counsel, and by committee coun-
sel, to the chairman.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that at this point
the subpena duces tecum which was served upon this witness be
incorporated in the body of the record.
Mr. Frazier. It may be done.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 286a, b," see appendix, pp. 7591,
7592.)
Mr. Arens. I also request, Mr. Chairman, in the interest of an ex-
peditious operation here, that the many exhibits which we will have in
the course of the next several days, as they are exhibited to the wit-
nesses and identified, have the order of the chairman carried with them
that they be appropriately marked and incorporated in the appendix
of the record. It will save us considerable time rather than to under-
take to procure such an order on each exhibit.
Mr. Frazier. That will be so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Now do you care to respond to the outstanding question
which is the request for you to transmit to the custody of the committee
the records called for in the subpena duces tecum ?
Mr. Grossman. May I have a ruling on this matter?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, you may read it.
Mr. Grossman. Thanks.
Mr. Chairman, the sub])ena served upon me, on November 21, 1956,
in Detroit, is directed to the executive secretary of the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. It calls for the production
before your committee of certain documents, including letters, minutes,
publications of that organization relative to its efforts to bring about
6464 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
the repeal or revision of legislation sponsored or supported by mem-
bers of your committee.
In appearing here and producing the documents called for in the
subpena, I neither admit nor deny association, affiliation, membership
or officership in the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. As to this I claim my privilege under the fifth amendment.
I am submitting to this committee, under protest, all of the docu-
ments of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
called for in this subpena and which were in my possession, custody, or
control at the time I received the subpena.
My protest is based upon my claim that the subpena violates the
rights of free speech, press, and petition guaranteed by the first amend-
ment, and is beyond the authority given this committee in the House
resolution creating this committee.
Further, the subpena violates the right to be secure from unreason-
able search and seizure, protected by the fourth amendment.
Mr. Chairman, here are the documents to which I refer.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly transmit those to Mr. Appell of the
committee staff.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, as Mr. Appell receives cus-
tody of the documents which the witness is transferring to the posses-
sion of the committee, that this record reflect an order from the chair-
man that each of the several documents be appropriately marked for
the purpose of identification and incorporated by reference in this
record or in the appendix.
Mr. Frazier. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Where did you get these documents which you have
just transmitted to the Committee on Un-American Activities?
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 287-300b,'' are reproduced in
the appendix, pp. 7593-7623; the remainder retained in files of the
committee.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, that is answered in my statement.
They are the documents which were in my control or custody at the
time I was subpenaed.
Mr. Arens. Where were they physically located?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, Grossman. I decline to answer that question based on my
previous answer.
Mr, Arens. Were those documents in your custody and control in
an office in the State of Michigan ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Did these documents come into your possession in
the course of the routine performance of an official duty?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Did these documents — and, of course, it is obvious that
1 have not yet had a chance to peruse tliem — but do these documents
contain all letters and copies of letters and all leaflets and documents,
incoming and outgoing, passing between the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, its officers and agents, and the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, its officers and agents,
during the period of January 1, 1953, to October 20, 1956, relating to
certain legislative enactments, including the Smith Act, the Internal
Security Act, the Immigration and Nationality Act, and the like?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6465
Mr. Grossman. The documents submitted are all the documents
called for in the subpena wliich were in my possession, custody, or
control at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. Akens. Are there any docnments in this series of documents
which you have transmitted to the ccuunittee in the nature of corre-
spondence between the Michigan Committee and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
I^fr. Grossman. They are all the documents called for in the sub-
pena and which we
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossivean. I do not believe there is any correspondence included
in those documents.
Mr. Arens. Does the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born have documents in the nature of letters, correspondence, passing
between itself, as an entity, and tlie American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question other than the
answer I have given in my statement.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question,
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. There has been no
invocation in this series of responses of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mv. Grossman. Will you please repeat the question.
^Ir. Arens. Mr. Reporter, would you kindly read the question to
the witness.
( The record was read by the reporter. )
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now do the documents which you have transmitted to
the Committee on Un-American Activities include excerpts from all
minutes of all meetings of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born as further described in the subpena duces tecum?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman, I have previously answered that question, and I will
repeat my answer, that T am submitting all documents of the com-
mittee called for in the subpena which were in my possession, custody,
and control at the time of the service of the subpena.
Mr. Arens. Your answer is not responsive.
T respectfully suggest that you answer the question.
Do these documents contain, and have you transmitted to the com-
mittee pursuant to the subpena duces tecum, the minutes of the meet-
ings of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born as
more specifically described in the subpena duces tecum?
Mr. Grossman. I believe my answer was responsive.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect an order and direction to this witness to answer the question.
6466 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION '
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. So far as I know, the material submitted does not
contain any minutes.
Mr. Arens. Are there any documents of the Michigan Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born which are embraced in the subpena
duces tecum which you have not transmitted to the Committee on Un-
American Activities?
(The witness confers with his counseh)
Mr. Grossman. I repeat the answer I gave previously to this ques-
tion, that I have submitted all of the documents of the committee called
for in the subpena and which were in my possession, custody, or con-
trol at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. ScHERER. That is not the question asked by counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. The question is whether there are any other docu-
ments that he has knowledge of as an officer of the [Michigan] Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. It is obvious we didn't get
them all.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Will you repeat the question, please?
(The record was read by the reporter.)
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Velde,
Jackson, and Scherer.)
Mr. Grossman. I have answered that question in the statement.
But, to the extent that I have not, I rely on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you have knowledge of the existence of correspond-
ence between the Michigan Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born
and the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in the
custody and control of some person other than yourself ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the status of the record at the present
time reflects that this witness has not produced the records and docu-
ments called for in the subpena duces tecum. The record, however,
reflects a statement by himself to the effect that these are the only
documents that he had custody and control of.
In order to make this record crystal clear at this time, I respectfully
suggest that the record now reflect an order and direction by the chair-
man to the witness to produce the documents called for in the subpena
duces tecum which he lias not produced before the committee.
Mr. Frazier. You are so ordered.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I repeat again that I have submitted
all documents of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born called for in the subpena and which were in my possession, cus-
tody, or control at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. SniKRER. Now I have a question.
Where are the other documents we are asking for? Who has
possession ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6467
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I haven't heard you answer it. Where are the other
documents we asked for ?
Mr. Grossman. This is the only answer I am going to give to the
questions of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my ques-
tion.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. If he doesn't know where they are, let him so state. I
think he knows. I don't think he will state he doesn't know.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I previously declined to answer that
question, basing myself on the fifth amendment, and the Chair upheld
my right to do so. I still do so.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I have a question.
Mr. Frazier. Yes, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Following the receipt by you of the subpena did you
transfer physical possession of any documents, correspondence, mem-
bership cards, or any other papers relating to the operation of either
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born or the Amer-
ican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born to any other person?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I will refuse to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. With whom did you confer following receipt of your
subpena other than your attorney?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. Did you meet with any other person for the purpose
of transferring to them or discussing the transfer to them of any of
the documents relating to this matter?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I think that's where they are.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
How can he say that in view of his declination to answer your ques-
tions ? How can he then tell this committee he did transfer to us all of
the documents in his possession at the time he was served with the sub-
pena ?
Mr. Jackson. Did you transfer to the committee, or have you today
transferred to the committee, all of the documents relating to this mat-
ter that were in your posession at the time you were served the sub-
pena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. That is a direct answer to my previous question.
You did not subsequently transfer any documents or any papers
relating to this matter to any other person?
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment now.
You said that you have today transferred to the committee n-1 of
the documents and papers, membership lists and so forth whicli you
had in your physical possession and control at the time the subpena
was served upon you; is that coi-rect?
6468 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. I am sorry. Will you repeat tlie question.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
iVIr. Grossman. Yes.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Those relating to the subpena.
Mr. Jackson. All of those called for in the subpena.
Did you transfer to any person subsequent to the receipt of your
subpena any papers called for in the subpena? Did you make such
transfer subsequent to the receipt of your subpena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. No.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you.
Mr. ScHEREK. Now did you make any transfer of such papers
shortly before the receipt of your subpena when you learned the com-
mittee was subpenaing people in connection with this matter?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Whatever you are referring to, of couree, is not
related to what was referred to in the subpena that was served upon
me.
Mr. ScHEKER. I am referring to what is related in the subpena.
Mr. Gross3ian. I have produced all of the documents the committee
called for in the subpena and which were in my possession, custody,
or control at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. Scherer. My question was, Did you transfer any papers called
for in the subpena shortly before the receipt of the subpena?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question. I don't
know how I am supposed to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Did you give anybody else any papers before the re-
ceipt of this subpena ? Did you transfer any of the documents under
your control ?
Mr. Grossman. I don't Imow how to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I don't know how to phrase it then.
Mr. Velde. Yes or no.
Mr. Grossman. I mean I was asked to bring with me certain docu-
ments called for in a subpena, and I did.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, did the subpena call for production of
membership lists ?
Mr. Arens. No, sir. The subpena called for three general categories
of instruments. One was correspondence between the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. The second general category of doc-
uments called for in the subpena duces tecum are excerpts from min-
utes of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Scherer. Now he said he didn't produce any excerpts from
minutes. Let's make the question specific : Witness, did you transfer
in the last 30 days any excerpts from minutes as called for in the sub-
pena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. You admit you have not produced any excerpts from
the minutes?
Mr. Grossman. These are all of the documents called for in the
subpena Avliich were in my possession, custody, or control at the time
I received the subpena.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6469
Mr. ScHEKER. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask you direct the witness to
answer my question. He has not answered the question.
Mr. Fraziei?. Witness, you are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossmax. I refuse to answer any further questions along those
lines, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. Wait until questions are asked before you refuse to
answer. I think it would be better.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, my associate
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute, Mr. Counsel.
Where are the minutes of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Scherer. Do you know where those minutes are ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
j\Ir. Scherer. I think you should invoke the fifth amendment if
that is the basis for your reason in refusing to answer my question.
Mr. Grossman. I have counsel. Thank you.
Mr. Scherer. Then I ask that you direct the witness to answer my
question because he has not invoked the fifth amendment. He has
merely refused to answer my question.
Mr. Frazier. Under the situation that has arisen, I direct you to
answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, relying upon the
fifth amendment.
]Mr. Arens. Mr. Grossman, in the documents which you have
transferred to the custody of the committee, I have in my hand at the
present time a letterhead of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, and on the letterhead appears "Executive Secretary,
Saul Grossman." And in the body, or beneath the body of the letter
on the letterhead, appears the signature "Saul Grossman, Executive
Secretary."
My associate, Mr. Appell, will lay that before you now. You look
at that document and please tell this committee whether or not you
are the Saul Grossman who is designated as executive secretary of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. Before I answer that question may I have a refill
of this glass of water ?
Mr. Arens. Surely. Could you answer it while he is doing it? It
would save a little time, if you please.
Mr. Grossman, (after referring to document). I decline to answer
that question, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have in my hand about a dozen documents of a
dozen different organizations in Michigan, all of which documents
were in the documents which 3'ou transmitted to the committer.
(Representative Donald L. Jacfeon returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Arens. (continuing). And I want to have Mr. Appell lay
before you, one by one, each of these documents alluding to a separate
committee, and have you tell this Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties whether or not you know anything about each of these several
85333— 57— pt. 1 22
6470 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
committees or organizations that have documents in the pile of docu-
ments you transmitted to the committee.
The first document is the Gus Polites Defense Committee, 5258
Calhoun Street, Dearborn, Mich., and that says : "Protect your citizen-
ship. Gus Polites. Defend his."
(SeeexhibitNo. 287a, b, appendix, pp. 7593,7594.) _
According to the body of this document, Gus Polites is an active
participant in the fight to repeal the Walter-McCarran Act, he is
a fighter for peace, and fighter for lots of things.
Please look at this little pamphlet on the Gus Polites Defense Com-
mittee which was in the stack of documents Yv'hich you transmitted to
the committee, and tell the Committee on Un-American Activities
whether or not this Gus Polites Defense Committee is controlled, to
your certain knowledge, by the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Is that Gus Polites Defense Committee an entity created
by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born'^
Mr. Grossman. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you another document which was in
this stack of documents which you transmitted to the committee, the
Peggy Wellman Defense Committee, room 920, 2033 Park Avenue,
Detroit 26, Mich., in which it is set forth that this lady Peggy Well-
man is being deported like 10,000 other people under the McCarran-
Walter Act. The recipient of the pamphlet is urged to send a con-
tribution, urged to contact various officials of the Government, in-
sisting upon a repeal of the security provisions of the Walter-Mc-
Carran Act.
(See exhibit No. 288a-d, appendix, pp. 7595-7598.)
Now this document was one of the documents which you just trans-
mitted to our committee here. Please look at this document of the
Peggy Wellman Defense Committee and tell the Un-American Activ-
ities Committee whether or not the Peggy Wellman Defense Com-
mittee was created by the Communist conspiracy to your certain
knowledge.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Who is Peggy Wellman ?
Mr. Frazier. Wait a minute.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, relying on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Peggy Wellman?
Mr. Grossman. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. She was a Communist, was she not, up for deportation
under the Walter-McCarran Act? Isn't that correct?
Mr. Grossman. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document which you just trans-
mitted to the committee — Fred Williams Defense Committee, Local
208, UAW-CIO, 2123 Gratiot Avenue, Detroit, Mich. We see here
a picture of the Statue of Liberty and see the Walter-McCarran
Act desecrating the Statue of Liberty. We see a call upon the re-
cipients to speak against the infamous Walter-McCarran Act. Its
design, according to this pamphlet, is to intimidate one-fourth of the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6471
population of the United States, and is directed against a number of
people, including Fred Williams.
(See exhibit No. 289a, b, appendix, pp. 7599, 7600.)
Please tell the committee whether or not you have certain knowl-
edge that the Fred Williams Defense Committee was created by the
Communist conspiracy in Michigan as an entity under the Michigan
Committee for Protection of the Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another document which you have
transmitted to this Committee on Un-American Activities of the
Congress. It is a pamphlet of the Greek- American Defense Commit-
tee, 920 Charlevoix Building, 2033 Park Avenue, Detroit, Mich.
Raise your voice ! An atrocity is being committed before our eyes.
This one man is used as an illustration, who has a name very diflScult
to pronomice— Parashiades — Greek American, who is up for deporta-
tion because he belonged to a political oroauization.
(See exhibit No. 290, appendix, p. 760L)
Now tell the Committee on Un-American Activities whether this
Greek- American Defense Committee is an entity, to your certain
knowledge, which was created by the Communist conspiracy in
Michigan.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question, but support every-
thing that is said in that leaflet.
Mi\ Arens. Let me have it back and see if you will support it under
oath.
Was, to your certain knoAvledge, Mr. Parashiades a member only of
a political party or was he, on the other hand, a member of the Com-
munist conspiratorial apparatus ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Then you are not going to, while you are under oath,
support everything that is in this pamphlet. Is that correct?
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question again. You have just told us and
opened the door, that you are going to support everything in that
pamphlet.
Tell the committee whether or not, to your certain knowledge, the
Greek-American Defense Committee is located at 920 Charlevoix
Building in Detroit.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I ;im here under compulsion, and I
refuse to disclose any information to this committee, relying on the
fifth amendment when I may do so.
What I offer voluntarily is my business.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the witness has opened the door by
saying he supports everything in this pamphlet. That is a volun-
teered statement. Therefore, he has waived any immunity respect-
ing the contents of this pamphlet, or his knowledge of the contents
of this pamphlet.
I, therefore, request that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer the last principal question.
Mr. Frazier. In view of that fact, you are directed to answer the
question.
6472 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, based on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Xow do you know a man by the name of Gus Polites
who is alhided to in this pamphlet of the Greek- American Defense
Committee ?
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. Do yon know whether or not he is a Communist?
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. This pamphlet talks about phony charges against
Parashiades.
Was he, to your certain knowledge, a member of the Conimmiist
Party, and were these charges against him phony?
Mr. Grossman^. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs, Now I want to invite your attention to still another
pamphlet which was in the stack of pamphlets and material which
you transmitted to the committee. It is published by the Stanley
Nowak Defense Committee. And again we see the Statue of Liberty
and the Emma Lazarus poem with the statue of fi^edom. We see a
sad case of Stanley Nowak who is under deportation because of politi-
cal affiliations and political beliefs, and the vicious government is try-
ing to revoke his citizenship. And many, many others, according to
this pamphlet, are under unwarranted attack all because of the Walter-
McCarran Act.
(SeeexhibitNo. 291, appendix, pp. 7602-7613.) •
Now would you kindly tell us whether or not the Stanley Nowak
Defense Committee was, to your certain knowledge, created by the
Communist conspiracy in Michigan as a subsidiary' organization of
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. Now I have still another pamphlet I want to invite
your attention to — and we have not had a chance to do more than just
glance at this array of pamphlets which you have presented to the
committee — and this again is a pamphlet or leaflet which you pre-
sented to the committee. It is the Italian-American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, 1442 Griswold Street, room 303, Detroit
26, Mich.
According to this pamphlet, the vicious McCarran-Walter Act is
being used to deport a man who is portrayed here in his army miiform.
And the recipient of the leaflet is requested to get organizations nnd
cluirch groups to demand that deportation proceedings against this
person be dropped.
Kindly look at this pamphlet, if j^ou please, sir, and tell the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities whether or not. to your certain
knowledge, the Italian-American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Ijorn was created and controlled by the Communist conspiracy to your
certain knowledge.
(See exhibit No. 292, appendix, p. 7614.)
]\Ir. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
]\[r. ^Vrexs. Now I have still another pamphlet which was in this
stack of pamphlets which you transmitted to the committee. It is a
bulletin of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
dated July 5, 1955, with reference to a number of organizations anii
detense committees. And this bulletin was in the stack of bulletins
and leaflets which you have transmitted to the custody of the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6473
Look at this bulletin, sir, and tell this Conunittee on Un-American
Activities, while you are under oath, whether or not, to your certain
knowledg:e, the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
and the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born are
integral parts of the same operation.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Grossman. What same operation are you referring to?
Mr. Arens. The operation of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, pursuant to tlie arrangements of
this committee, a witness is entitled to receive his pay for his trans-
portation and for his per diem, witness fee. But to do so it is neces-
sary that he sign a pay voucher.
Without in any sense undertaking to be surreptitious about it, I say
now I want to have this voucher presented to you for the purpose of
procuring your signature so that your signature can, on this record,
he compared with other signatures of Saul Grossman affixed to vari-
ous letterheads of the Michigan Connnittee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Mr. Appell, will you presently lay this voucher before Mr. Gross-
man and show him where the payee is to sign, witli the request from
me now that he affix his signature to the pay voucher.
Mr. Grossman. Have you figured out how much I am entitled to?
Mr. Arens. You will receive the necessary
Mr. Grossman. Have you figured it out ? Is it on there ?
Mr. Arens. Will you sign it as soon as it is filled out? It is just
a matter of figuring it out to fill it out.
Mr. Grossman. Will you fill it out ?
Mr. Arens. Will you sign it?
Mr. Grossman. Will you fill it out?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that you order
and direct the witness to answer whether or not he will sign this
Toucher while he is under oath.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to sign the voucher when it is prop-
erly filled out. I can't direct him to sign it before it is filled out.
Mr. Arens. I ask that you direct him to answer the question
whether or not he will sign it when it is filled out.
Mr. Grossman. I have to see it first.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, in order to save
time on this record, if, as. and when this witness signs the pay voucher
made out to himself, as Mr. Appell will display to him either while
he is under oath or after he is released from testifying, that that part
of his pay voucher bearing his signature be incorporated in the body
of the record so that it may be used for comparison with other signa-
tures which we have of Saul Grossman.
Mr. Frazier. It is so directed.
Mr. Jackson. Might we save some time by asking the witness if
he will sign his name ?
Do you have any objection to that, Mr. Grossman?
Mr. Grossman. Yes ; I have objection.
Mr. Velde. You mean objection to signing his name on a blank
jDiece of paper?
Mr. Jackson. You do object to signing your name?
6474 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. Yes. By the way, I would sign
Mr. Velde. "Wliy do j'ou object to that ?
Mr. Grossman. I don't object to signing the pay voucher, by the
way. I just want it filled out. You want me to sign a blank piece of
paper.
Mr. Velde. You will sign a pay voucher?
Mr. Grossman. Of course, I will. I am entitled to my mileage and
allowances. There is no attempt to conceal anything.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 301," see appendix, p. 7624.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Grossman, I now lay before you a photostatic copy
of each of two documents. One is an application for a special beer
and wine license, filed with the Michigan Liquor Control Commission
by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, 2033
Park Avenue, Detroit, bearing the signature of Mignon Wellman and
Saul Grossman. And then the second document is the surety bond
application submitted with the first document.
Please look at these two documents and tell the Committee on Un-
American Activities whether or not these documents present a true and
correct reproduction of your signature as affixed to the originals.
(Document marked "Exhibit ISFo. 302a, b." see appendix, pp. 7625,
7626.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect an order and direction to the witness to answer the question.
And I say, without meaning to take advantage of you at all, that
you have not invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite yonv attention to an article
appearing in the Detroit News, July 22, 1949, and bearing in mind, if
you please, the date, sir, according to the first paragraph of this
article —
Three Detroit Italian born men were named by Federal authorities as members
of organizations advocating overthrow of the United States Government by
force.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 303," see appendix, p. 7627.)
Mr. Arens. Please look at this article, Mr. Grossman, and tell the
Committee on Un-American Activities if it is not a fact that the inci-
dent alluded to in this article was the incident which precipitated the
formation of the Micliigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document handed to the witness.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(Committee members present : Representatives Frazier, Velde, Jack-
son, and Schercr.)
Mr. Grossman. I i-efuse to answer.
My. Arens. Why?
My. Gross3ian. The same reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Give them again then, please. Let's have the record
clear. Why do you refuse to answer ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6475
Mr. (iKossMAN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question. There has been no invocation of the
fifth amendment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Fraziek. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I am sorry. Was there
Did the Chair speak?
Mr. Frazier. I said I directed you to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Witness, I lay before you a photostatic copy of
The Lamp, which is, according to its masthead, the official publica-
tion of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This is the issue of January 1950. And in this issue we see reference
to the Detroit Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, organized
in November, holding a very successful picket line at the Immigration
and Naturalization Service during the Anna Ganley deportation
hearings.
(See exhibit No. 14, appendix, pp. 7111, 7112.)
I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny the fact that
the Detroit Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was the pre-
decessor organization of the Michigan Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born and that it, likewise, was created and controlled by the
Communist conspiracy in the State of Michigan.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I would like to have you look at a photograph from
the Detroit News, October 11, 1948, of an individual using a fire
hydrant for the purpose of affixing a placard to a stick. Right adja-
cent to the stick is a sign "Protest Indictment of 12 Communist
Leaders."
Look at this photograph and tell this Committee on Un-American
Activities if you can identify that individual and be helpful to your
Government with respect to its activities to root out subversives.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 304," see appendix, p. 7628.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
]\Ir. Jackson. I ask that the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Arens. That photograph is a photograph of you, is it not ?
Mr. Grossiman. Plow anybody can identify anything in this picture
is beyond me.
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee whether or not you have a
recollection that that is your photograph.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this
committee while you are under oath whether or not that is your photo-
graph you would be supplying information which might be used
a.gainst you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
f)476 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Aeens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
leflect that this witness be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Arkns. And I say that question was asked, among other reasons,
to test the good faith of this witness because of his facetious attitude
with reference to the photograph.
(The witness confers witli his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I object to that remark by counsel.
Mr. Arens. Then just stand up while you are under oath and tell
this committee whether or not you honestly anticipate that if you
told the committee while you are under oath if that is your photograph
you would be supplying information which can be used against you
in a criminal proceeding.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question, relying on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to still another edi-
tion of The Lamp of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. It is the issue of February-March, 1950, and alludes
here to the establishment and creation of a Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, which established offices at room 424,
140 Cadillac Square, Detroit, Mich.
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
And, curiously, there is a name here that has been a name raised in
our lecord in the last hour or so. Mr. Saul Grossman is serving as
secretary.
And the committee scheduled a Michigan State Action Conference.
It also tells about the establishment of an Andrulis Defense
Committee.
Please look at this document and tell the committee whether or not
you are the Saul Grossman alluded to in connection with the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. This Andrulis Defense Committee has held 2 or 3 mass
meetings here in Chicago in addition to the mass meetings held in
Detroit, all in the course of the last several weeks. Is that not correct ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be directed. It is quite obvious,
Mr. Chairman, the witness is simply entering a declination.
Unless there is a direction, he is not invoking his constitutional
privilege.
Mr. Frazier. You are quite right.
You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. "Who is Vincent Andrulis?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know him ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6477
Mr. Arens. You had your picture taken with him not too long ago,
didn't you ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer.
Mr. iVRENS. I want to exhibit to you now an article bearing a photo-
graph. They are an article and photograph from the Detroit News
of February 27, 1950.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 305 and 306," see appendix, pp.
7629,7630.)
According to this article, loyal Americans of Lithuanian descent
issued a statement which read, in part, as follows :
A Communist fifth column has long been busy in this free country. * * *
With deep regret we admit that among the Moscow agents are some individ-
uals of Lithuanian origin. We repudiate these traitors and will work to expose
them.
Then we have here a photograph, right here in connection with this
article, of one Vincent Andrulis. And then he is accompanied here by
one of his defenders, according to the article, one Saul Grossman, iden-
tified under the photogi-aph as executive secretary of the Michigan
Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born.
Look at that article and that photograph and see if you can't help
your Government by giving us a verification of the authenticity of that
identification.
Mr. Grossman, I decline to answer.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer, Mr. Witness.
i^Ir. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, based on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Your interest has expanded in the course of the last
few years from immigration matters into other anti-Communist leg-
islation, has it not ?
]Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Well, I want to exhibit to you now a document pub-
lished by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
Saul Grossman, executive secretary. And it calls for the defeat of
the Hobbs bill, to stop deportation hysteria, prevent annulment of
citizenship, and attacking various legislative actions by the Congress,
all issued by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
Saul Grossman, executive secretary.
Look at this and tell this committee while you are under oath if you
cannot help the Government of the country under whose flag you have
protection by tellino^ us whether or not, to your certain knowledge,
that leaflet was published by people known by you to be in the interna-
tional Communist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 307 a-d," see appendix, pp. 7631-
7634.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite your attention to still another
exhibit.
This in an organ of tlie American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, the Lamp. It tells about a Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born holding a conference at Ford Local 600
auditorium in Michigan. It tells a good deal about the activities of
this Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, about
the establishment of a number of subordinate committees.
6478 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not, to your
certain knowledt^e, the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born held this conference as indicated in the Lamp of August 1951.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you a photostatic reproduction of the official
summary of proceedings of this conference alluded to in the preceding
exhibit, held at Ford Local 600 auditorium, and I ask you if you will
kindly tell us who, to your certain knowledge, of the number of persons
alluded to as leaders of the conference, including yourself — Saul
Grossman, executive secretary of the Micliigan Committee lor Pro-
tection of Foreign Born^ — are members of the Communist conspira-
torial apparatus.
(See exhibit No. 41, appendix, pp. 7157, 7158.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
This is the last time I will warn him.
He has not invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Grossman, if you do not answer that you fear your answers
to these questions would incriminate you, you have no right to refuse to
answer those questions.
Mr. Fr.\zier. Mr. Witness, you are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question,- basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Frazier. You will save a lot of time when you decline if you
will state that.
Mr. Grossman. Well, I respectfull}^ submit to the chair that I am
not required to answer the questions when the counsel asked me.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document, a reproduction of
still another issue of the Lamp, with reference to this session at Ford
Auditorium, in which is set forth the number of speakers who spoke
there, including a number of people identified with the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born: Harriet Barron, Attorneys
Carol King and George Crockett, Charles Hill and others.
Kindly look at this exhibit and see if that might refresh your recol-
lection with reference to that meeting. And tell us whether or not,
to your certain knowledge, these people from the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born did occupy positions of leadership in
this Michigan Conference for Protection of Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 20, appendix, p. 7119.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now did you participate in a national conference on
stopping deportation and attacking the immigration laws right here
in Chicago on June 9, 1951 ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
]\fr. Arens. I have here in my hand a summary of the proceedings,
and in these proceedings Abner Green tells tlie executive committee
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born that the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has created 100
organizations in 15 key States all designed to destroy the Walter-
McCarran Act and create sentiment across the Nation, at the cross-
roads, to bring pressure on Congress to destroy the law.
Were you in attendance at that session ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6479
Mr. GroSvSMAn. I decline to answer that question.
IVIr. Arens. Now I show you still another exhibit. It is an exhibit
of the National Conference of Deportee Defense Committees, which
myriad number of defense committees all assembled here in Chicago
for the purpose of undertaking: to block the deportation of Commu-
nist agents.
Now look at this document and tell this committee whether or not
you are the Saul Grossman alluded to in here as representing the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 42, appendix, pp. 7158-7160.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know John Gallo, G-a-1-l-o ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
i\Ir. Fr.\zier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the 20th anniversary national confer-
ence of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born held
December 1951 ?
Mr. GROSS?.rAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have in my hand a photostatic copy of a letterhead
of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, signed
Saul Grossman, executive secretary, in which there is an appeal for
funds and a request tliat all organizations that receive this document
organize and send delegations to Washington and contact the various
Senators and Congressmen, that they vigorously protest the victims
of the Smith Act and of the McCarran Act — that is the Internal
Security Act — and the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Please look at this document and then tell this committee whether
or not you are registered under the Lobbying Act of the United States
Congress.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that he answer
the question as to whether or not lie is registered under the Lobbying
Act of the United States Congress, and that he either answer it or not
answer it at liis peril because that is a matter of public record.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to ansA\'er that question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another exhibit. It is a leaflet issued
by the Polish-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
And in this pamphlet they indicate a number of offices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foi'eign Born, about a dozen different
offices around the country in various States.
This pamphlet is entitled "Know Your Rights." It tells about liow
the vicious McCarran-Walter Act is being used to denaturalize citizens
because of political beliefs and political affiliations, liow^ noncitizens
are being denaturalized just because they refuse to answer questions.
You look at this pamphlet and tell tliis committee whether or not,
to your certain knowJedge, the Polisli-American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born was created and is controlled by the Commu-
nist consi^iracy in the United States.
g480 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 308a, b," see appendix, pp. 7635,.
7636.)
Mr. Gkossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another document. It is a letterhead
of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And,
curiously enough, this is sio:ned by Margaret Fishman for Provisional
Committee for Youth Participation.
It seems the committee is going to get some youth now to participate-
Kindly look at this document and tell the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities whether or not, to your certain Imowledge, Margaret
Fishman did head a Provisional Committee for Youth Participation
in the activities of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 309," see appendix, p. 7637.)
(The witness confers with his counsel, and examines the document.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Wliy?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this i-ecord
reflect an order to this witness to answer the question.
He Imows and his counsel knows he has no riglit to refuse to answer
these questions unless he honestly apprehends that the answer would
supply information which could be used against him in a criminal
proceeding.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Witness, you are again directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to respectfully state
again
Mr. Frazier. Now you only have to state your reasons for declining.
If you decline because of the fifth amendment the committee goes
no further into it.
Mr. Grossman. I think the chair should also enlighten the counsel
that I don't have to answer his questions in the way that he wants me
to answer it.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the last outstanding question at his peril.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Grossman, are you aware of the fact that the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has been cited by the
Attorney General and by the Un-American Activities Committee as a
subversive organization ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Velde. I move that you direct him to answer the question.
Mr. Fr^vzier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer that
question, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have in my hand pliotostatic reproductions of some
financial records of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born: Fight Back Fund Drive to Defend the Rights of Foreign-
Born Americans.
And there are about two dozen organizations, almost all nationality
groups — Italian- Americans, Mexican-Americans, Finnish- Americans
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6481
and the like, about two dozen organizations. And opposite the name
of each of these various organizations are items showing a quota to be
established and funds raised to date, all on the letterhead of the Michi-
gan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, showmg very sub-
stantial funds elicited from these some 2- or 3-dozen nationality-group
organizations in Detroit.
Kindly look at the documents and tell this committee while j^ou are
under oath whether or not those funds were solicited by the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born from those numerous
nationality groups in residency in Detroit or in jSIichigan.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 310 and 311," see appendix,
pp. 7638, 7639.)
(The witness and his counsel examine the document.)
Mr. Arens. You will observe that the quotas established there are
several thousand dollars, all to be collected by the Michigan Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that quastion.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Fr^^zier. You are ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I respectfully decline to answer that question, basing
myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you a mimeographed announcement on the
letterhead of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
of a meeting to he held in the Hotel Tuller, Detroit, Mich., all for the
purpose of creating sentiment and action to repeal the Walter-McCar-
ran Act and to defend certain of its victims.
Kindly look at that announcement and tell this committee whether
or not you set that meeting up.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another document. It is the proceed-
ings of the Michigan Conference To Repeal the "VValter-McCarran
Law and Defend the Rights of Foreign-Born Americans.
According to these proceedings, representatives from all over the
United States were in attendance. Curiously enough, one of the men
in leadership position here is a Mr. Saul Grossman, executive secretary
of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Look at that document and see if you can't help your Government
by identifying it and attesting to its authenticity.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answ^er that question.
Mr. Arens. You will observe in this first proceeding that Mr. Carl
Marzani was the main si)eaker of the afternoon.
Tell the committee, while you are under oath, who was Carl Marzani
and what was he doing at that meeting.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer tliat question.
Mr. Arens. I have in my hand a release by the ^Michigan Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign 15orn : "Congress Urged to Declare
Moratorium on Deportations and Denaturalizations," calling upon the
recipient organization to join this campaign to send delegations to
Wasliington to contact the local Congressmen and Senators and ask
them to take a public position on this vital matter of defending the
6482 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
victims of the Walter-McCarran law, all a key issue of this confer-
ence.
Now look at this document I have in my hand. And, before you
answer it, tell this committee if you have information on the depor-
tation proceedings against a single individual who was defended by
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in a depor-
tation proceeding who was not, to your certain knowledge, a member
of the Communist conspiracy.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 312a, b," see appendix, pp. 7640,
7641.)
Mr. GROSs^rAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Akens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to attirm or
deny the fact that every individual defended by the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born was a member of the Commu-
nist conspiracy.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer tliat
question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Plere is still another conference held at the pentliouse
of the Metropolitan Building, Woodward and Broadway : "Call to
a Conference to Protect the Citizenship of Foreign-Born Americans"
and to repeal the Walter-McCarran law, urging everyone to write
letters and to contact their Congressmen to repeal the Walter-McCJar-
ran law, and protesting the arrest of certain innocent people, listing
liere a number of the innocent victims of the Walter-McCarran Act.
all under the auspices of the Michigan Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born.
Please look at that document, sir, and see if you can't verify its
authenticity, to serve your government.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 313," see appendix, pp. 7642,
7643.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question.
I respectfully' suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be ordered
and directed to answer that last outstanding question.
Mr. Frazieh. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman, 1 decline to answer the question, based on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. You have been the chairman of the resolutions com-
mittee of most of these national conferences in which resolutions have
l)een passed right and left condemning the Walter-McCarran Act, the
Internal Security Act, the Smith Act, tlie Communist Conti-ol Act,
and other items of legislation all designed to ferret out those who
would destroy this great Republic.
Is that not true?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens, I have here still another document. It is addressed to
all trade-union officers, editors, educational directors.
The onolosed analysis of the Walter-McCarran Act was prepared primarily
for use by union officials and editors of labor publications as source and back-
ground material.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6483
It highlights sections of the law. It is to be useful in preparing
articles, editorials, speeches, and additional information will be sent
upon request. And :
We firmly believe that the widespread dissemination of facts on the Walter-
McCarran Act will help translate into reality trade-union resolutions calling for
repeal of the law.
That is signed by Saul Grossman, executive secretary.
See if you can't help your government by identifying the authen-
ticity or verifying the authenticity of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 314," see appendix, p. 7644.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. I have still another document I thought might be
of interest to you: Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, Saul Grossman, executive secretary, addressed to "Dear can-
didate for public office."
And connected hereto is a little poll of the candidate for public
office after he has received this analysis of the Walter-JSIcCarran Act
and after his attention has been directed to resolutions of a great
number of civic, fraternal, veteran, religious, labor groups attacking
the Walter-McCarran Act, and after it has been said that all these
groups are going to be dedicated to retiring from Congress those
who won't vote to repeal the Walter-McCarran Act.
Kindly look at that document and tell us while you are under oath,
sir, if that document was, to your certain knowledge, prepared by
people known by you to be members of the Communist conspiratorial
apparatus.
(See exhibit No. 204, appendix, p. 7616.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document which I should like to
direct your attention to. It is a photostatic copy of a letter dated
December 28, 1954, signed by Kev. Paul Johnson Allured, of Lansing,
Mich., and 2 or 3 preachers or pastors, all on the letterhead of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, saying, in
effect, that the act offends tolerance and ofi'ends liberty and the tradi-
tional concept of what constitutes due process and the like.
Please tell the committee while you are under oath whether or not
that letter was prepared by a member of the Communist conspiratorial
api)aratus and those signatures were procured by a person known by
you to be in the Connnunist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 315," see appendix, p. 7645.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document to which I should like to
invite your attention. It is a mimeographed letter dated October
19, 1955, on the letterhead of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. It is addressed to all candidates for public office in
the 15th Congressional District, calling for basic changes in the
Walter-McCarran Act, and containing a form letter which is being
sent to the Judiciary Connnittee of the United States Senate, listing
a number of religious, labor, fraternal, veterans', and civic grouj^s
representing millions of Americans, all condemning the Waltei--
McCarran law as "racist, discriminatory, and undemocratic."
It has an analysis and comparison here of what the law is and what
it ouaht to be.
6484 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Curiously enough, the provisions which are analyzed are exclusively
the security provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at this document and its accompanying document, and
tell this committee whether or not, to your certain knowledge, this
publication, this release, emanated from a source known by you to
be under the discipline of the Communist conspirational apparatus.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 316a-c," see appendix, pp. 7646-
7648.)
Mr. Grossman. From your reading of it, it sounds like a very good
letter to have gone out to people.
Mr. Arens. You just keep on talking.
Tell us what you loiow about the letter.
Mr. Gross]vl\n. I don't want to answer any questions about it.
Mr. Arens. Do you endorse tlie contents of the letter?
Mr. Grossman. I don't wish to answer any questions about it.
Mr. Arens. I show you a document which is a mimeogi'aphed sheet
headed "Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and To
Defend the Rights of Foreign-Born Americans," Sunday, February
27, 1955, under tlie auspices of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, listing a number of cases, 75 people in Michigan
being deported, against whom deportations have been instituted, 25
people being denaturalized, and 500 noncitizens who are being pro-
ceeded against under the Walter-McCarran Act, and telling of the
widespread opposition to this act, and calling upon the recipients to
get resolutions from all kinds of agencies. Federal, State, local, county,
and to write to Governor Williams, Senator McNamara, Congressman
Diggs, and Councilman Lincoln, and other officials.
Tell the committee while you are under oath whether or not, to
your certain knowledge, that document emanated from a source known
by you to be a part of the Communist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Docmnent marked "Exhibit No. 317," see appendix, p. 7649.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. New I show you still another document. It is a mimeo-
graphed paper known as the Defender. According to its masthead,
it is published by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Please look at this document and tell us if you can identify the
people who appear in positions of leadership in the document as
individuals known by you to be in the Communist conspiratorial
apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 318," see appendix, pp. 7650-
7653.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document, and that is a mimeo-
graphed copy of a letter dated April 10, 1956, signed Saul Grossman,
executive secretary, which deals with a birthday party which is being
given for Stanley Nowak, all under the auspices of the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. They are goino; to raise
some funds at this birthda}^ party to struggle to defend the citizenship
rights of certain people and to repeal the Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at that and see if you can't help the committee of the
Congress probing subversion, and tell us wliether or not, to your
certain knowledge, that meeting was under the auspices of individuals
known by you to be in the Communist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 319," see appendix, p. 7654.)
(The witness examines document, and confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6485
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another exhibit. This exhibit is entitled
"Conference To Eepeal the Walter-McCarran Law and to Defend
the Rights of the Foreign-Born Americans," held May 13, 1956. And
there are a number of sponsors here, all under the auspices of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
We lun-e here, too, the list of the notables sponsoring the conference;
75 in Michigan alone, according to this document, are victims of this
unholy Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at that document and see if you cannot verify the
authenticity of that document for this committee of the Congress.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 320a-c," see appendix, pp. 7655-
7657.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have an exhibit of the Michigan Conunittee for
Protection of Foreign Born, November 25, 1955, a letter addressed
to "Dear Rose," signed by Saul Grossman. And this "Dear Rose" is
with the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This letter tells about 100 copies of a little booklet to be distributed
at a national conference. And in it, it poses the query as to why
only 1,100 people showed up at the banquet out there in Los Angeles
of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And
it also congratulates Rose on the tremendous victory they won in
getting the Supreme Court to review the Smith Act convictions and
the like.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens (continuing). Please look at this letter signed Saul with
the typewritten name Saul Grossman, and tell this committee whether
or not this Rose is Rose Chernin of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 321," see appendix, p. 7658.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now do you know a person by the name of Louise
Pettibone Smith?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Louise Pettibone Smith identified you while she was un-
der oath before the Subversive Activities Control Board on December
21, 1955, as the executive director of the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
Was she lying or telling the truth?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Back in May of 1954 before the House Committee on
Un-American Activities, a Mr. Mikkelsen, M-i-k-k-e-1-s-e-n, was
sworn and testified before the committee that while he was a member
of the Communist Party he knew you as a Communist.
Was Mikkelsen lying'^or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. In May of 1954, again another person, a Mrs. Baldwin,
testified before the Committee on Un-American Activities that while
she was a member of the Communist Party she knew you as a Com-
mimist and as a member of the 12th Street Club of the Comniunist
Party.
Was she lying or telling the truth?
Mr. Grossman, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiratorial
apparatus ?
85333—57 — pt. 1 23
6486 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Stephen ■
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute.
Witness, do you mean to tell us that you won't tell this committee
whether you have been a member of the Communist
Don't laugh.
Mr. Grossman. I am not laughing. I am speaking to my counsel.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you talking to him ?
Mr. Grossman. Yes, I was.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you finished then?
Mr. Grossman. Yes. You may continue, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, let me ask you this question :
Have you been a member of the Communist Party since the Russians
went into Hungary ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. You mean you won't tell this committee whether or
not you have kept j^our membership in the Communist Party since we
know what happened in Hungary ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer any questions about my personal
beliefs or opinions.
If you wish to make a speech
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking about your
Mr. Grossman. If you wish to make a speech, Mr. Scherer, I am
sure you have the facilities to do so.
Mr. Velde. Will the gentleman yield to me for a question?
Mr. Scherer. Just one second.
I am not asking about your opinions and beliefs. I am asking you
whether you have retained your membership in the Communist Party
since the Russians moved into Hungary.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. Have you protested the Russians' actions in any way ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Mr. Velde. If you were called upon to enter the armed services of
the United States of America would you be willing to fight against
Soviet Russia ?
Mr. Grossman. I was a member of the Armed Forces for 4 years,
Mr. Velde, and I would fight against any enemy of the United States.
Mr, Velde. Just answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Velde. I am sure your records reflect that.
Mr. Grossman. I am still prepared to light against any enemy of
the United States.
jMr. Velde. Would j^ou be on the side of the rebels in Hungary or
on the side of the others?
Mr. Grossman. I am not in Hungary, Mr. Velde. That's for sure.
Mr. Velde. I am sorry. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Grossman. I am not in Hungary.
Mr. Velde. I realize tliat.
Mr. Grossman. My opinion about what I will do in any given cir-
cumstance is based on my knowledge of the facts in each situation.
Mr. Velde. You won't answer the question as to whether you are
on the side of the Soviets or on the side of the rebels?
C03iIMUXlST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6487
Mr. Grossman. Are you asking for my opinion? Do you want a
speech ?
Mr. Velde. How do you feel about it in your own heart ?
Mr. Grossman. I don't think it germane to the purposes of this
committee's inquiry. I don't care to discuss it with you here. If you
are interested in my opinions, Mr. Velde
Mr. Velde. I think it is very germane.
Mr. Grossman. If you are interested in my opinions, Mr. Velde
Mr. Velde. I think you are very dangerous to our security, and I
would like to have you answer that question.
Mr. Grossman. If you are interested in my opinions on the sub-
ject, I will be glad to discuss them with you outside the committee
chambers.
Mr. Velde. "Wliy not here ? This is the forum where you can talk.
Search your soul and tell the people how you feel about the whole
situation.
Mr. Grossman. Were you reelected to Congress this time, Mr,
Velde, in this last election ?
Mr. Velde. That doesn't answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. We are discussing opinions. I was wondering
whether the people in your district thought that you
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Velde retired. He did not run for reelection.
Mr. Grossman. Did you feel that the people of your constituency
didn't have any confidence in your ability to represent them in the
f utui-e ?
Mr. Velde. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Grossman. I would like to ask some questions, too, then, if you
want my opinions. I would like yours.
Mr. Velde. You are in the witness chair. You are not asking the
questions of this committee.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. You have asked me for a personal opinion, Mr.
Velde. You are bound by whatever answers I wish to give to you.
If you don't like my answers I am very sorry.
Mr. Velde. If you are a true American and true patriot you will
answer that question.
Mr. Grossman. That is what you think.
Mr. vScHERER. Mr. Witness, you said you were a member of the
Armed Forces.
While you were a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States were you a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Were you a member of the Armed Forces, Mr.
Scherer ?
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Witness, your answer is not responsive to the
question. Either answer
Mr. Grossman. I answered the question.
Mr. Frazier. Either answer it or decline to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I think that the
Mr. Frazier. The Chair has treated you very courteously.
Mr. Grossman. I expect to be courteous.
Mr. Frazier. Either answer or decline. Don't come back with
another question to Mr. Scherer.
6488 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. He is asking for opinions.
Mr. Frazier. He asked you if when you were a member of the
Armed Forces were you a member of tlie Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. Whether he was a member of the Coimnunist Party
at the time he was a member of the armed services of the United
States.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. You said you were in the armed services of the
United States.
You were in the armed services of the United States when Russia
was a cobelligerent with the United States ; were you not ?
Mr. Grossman. I was a member of the Armed Forces from 1942
to 1945.
Mr. ScHERER. That is all.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that, in the
presence of this witness, another witness be sworn.
Please come forward, Mr. Stephen J. Schemanske.
Mr. Schemanske, kindly raise your right hand while the chairman
administers an oath to you.
Mr. Frazier. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony about to
be given in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Schemanske. I do.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN J. SCHEMANSKE
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, kindly identify yourself, please, sir.
Kindly identify yourself by name and residence.
Mr. Schemanske. My name is Stephen J. Schemanske. I reside
at 7001 Oakman Street in the city of Dearborn, Mich.
Mr. Arens. I expect, Mr. Schemanske, later on to interrogate you at
length on a number of matters. But, for the present purposes, I
should like to ask you whether or not you have ever been a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Schemanske. I have been a mxember of the Young Communist
League and the Communist Party for approximately 15 years.
Air. Arens. And what were the dates of your membership in the
Communist Party ?
Mr, Schemanske. From the latter part of 1943 to December 1953,
at which time I testified for our Government in the Smith Act trial of
six leading Michigan Communist Party members.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time have an ideological affinity for the
Communist Party during your membership in that organization ? Or
were you, on the other hand, serving your Government as a member
of, or as a representative of, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Schemanske. During my period of membership in the Young
Communist League and the Communist Party I assisted our Govern-
ment and did not believe in the policies and principles of the pro-
grams of the Communist Party during m;^ period of membership.
Mr. Arens. Your sole, exclusive function was to be an undercover
agent in the Communist apparatus at the behest of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation. Is that correct ?
Mr. Schemanske. That is correct.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6489
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, during the course of your member-
ship in the Communist conspiracy as an undercover agent for the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, did you know a person oy the name
of Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know this person as a Communist ?
Mr. Schemanske. I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you see in the courtroom today the person who was
known by you to be the Communist Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Schemanske. I do.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly point him out to the Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Schemanske. It is the person sitting right there that you
interrogated.
TESTIMONY OF SAUL GEOSSMAN— Eesumed
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, you have just heard the testimony
of Mr. Schemanske.
Would you kindly look him in the face so there will not be any
suggestion of a faceless informer. Look him in the face while you are
under oath and tell this Committee on Un-American Activities, when
he identified you as a person known by him to be a Communist, was
he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Just look over there to your left now. Look him in the face and tell
this committee was he lying or was he telling the truth.
Mr. Grossman. I have heard of that as a paid labor spy for the Ford
Motor Car Co., who committed perjury on the witness stand in the
Federal court in Detroit.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. Just answer the question. Just answer the question,
Mr. Witness.
Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Schemanske lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I wouldn't answer any questions put by a profes-
sional, paid informer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, so that there will
be no question at all about this record, that this witness now be ordered
and directed to answer the question as to whether or not Mr. Sche-
manske was lying or telling the truth.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Witness, you are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to state that
Mr. Frazier. You can give your reasons for not answering after
you have declined, if you wish to decline. But you needn't make a
tirade.
Mr. Grossman. I am faced with a perjurer here.
Mr. Arens. Did he perjure himself just now when he identified you
as a Communist?
Mr. Grossman. Would you kindly not interrupt the chairman. Let
me finish answering the question of the chairman.
I must respectfully decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
basing myself on the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Frazier. Proceed, Mr. Arens.
6490 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. You do admit that you know Mr. Schemanske, however ?
(The witness confers with his counseL)
Mr. Grossman. I have heard of him.
Mr. Velde. But do you know him personally?
Mr. Grossmax. I saw him in the courtroom in Detroit at the time
he conmiitted his perjury.
Mr. Velde. Had you seen him before that time?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. SciiFJtER. May I follow through?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Frazier. Go ahead, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. You said you saw him in the courtroom and 3'ou
knew him by reputation.
Is that the only way 3'ou knew this witness here?
Mr. Gross^eax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. Were you telling the truth when you told us a few
minutes ago that that was the only way you knew him was by reputa-
tion and by seeing him in the courtroom?
Mr. Grossman. I didn't tell you that, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. '\"\niat did you say?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I see.
Mr. Frazier. Proceed.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is that you knew him as a member of the
Communist Party. Isn't it?
Mr. Grossman. Is that a question, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I believe there was a previous direction, Mr. Chair-
man, was there not, on the same issue ?
I am trying to save the time of the attorney.
Mr. Frazier. Just proceed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Is there a direction to answer the question ? He again
is following the policy of not invoking the fifth amendment unless he
is directed to answer the question. I ask that he be directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Frazier. All right. I have directed him to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Grossman. I believe I have answered. Is that correct ?
I decline to answe^r, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN J. SCHEMANSKE— Eesiimed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, just in a few moments, kindly sum-
marize while you are under oath the dates and circumstances of your
association with Mr. Grossman while 3''ou were an undercover agent
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Communist conspir-
atorial apparatus.
Mr. Schemanske. I have been subpenaed here to appear by this
committee, and I have known Saul Grossman in the Communist Party
cojvijmuis^ist political subversion 6491
for a niiniber of years. And I also liave known liim as executive secre-
tary of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arexs. "Was that while yon were nndercoAer agent for the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. ScHEMAXSKE. That is correct.
Mr. Akexs. Somewliere in the early fifties. Is that correct ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE, That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us, have you ever served in a closed Com-
munist Party meeting with Grossman ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes, I have, on many occasions. I served in
conferences, conventions, and also was present at a language commis-
sion meeting of the Communist Party in which Saul Grossman was
appointed to or elected, I should say, to this language commission of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Where was that held, please, sir ?
Mr. Schemaxske. That was held in November of 1953.
Mr. Arens. '\Miere, please, sir ?
Mr. Schemaxske. At the Cooperative Restaurant located above
Yemans Hall in the city of Hamtramck, Mich.
Mr. Arexs. Did Grossman have a party name ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. No, I clo uot recall Grossman having a party
name.
TESTIMONY OF SAUL GEOSSMAN— Eesumed
j\Ir. Arens. No"vv, Mr. Grossman, was Mr. Schemanske — look him in
the face and tell this committee so there will be no faceless informers
here — look him in the face and tell this committee
]Mr. Grossmax". You M'ouldn't care for me to puke over the table by
looking him in the face.
Mr. Arexs. Tell this committee was he lying or telling the truth?
(The witness confers with his cou 
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