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HARVARD COLLEGE
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GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
PART 1
HEARINGS
BEFOBB THB
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICM ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OJF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
WASHINGTON, D. C, NOVEMBER 12, 13, AND 14, 1956
YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 3 AND 4, 1956
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., DECEMBER 5, 6, 7, AND 8, 1956
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF., DECEMBER 11, 1956
SEATTLE, WASH., DECEMBER 13 AND 14, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
Harvard college liukary
deposited by the
united states govcrnment
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
PART 1
Since these hearings are consecutively paged
they are arranged hy page nimiber instead of
alphabetically by title.
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICM ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
WASHINGTON, D. C. NOVEMBER 12, 13, AND 14, 1956
YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 3 AND 4, 1956
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., DECEMBER 5, 6, 7, AND 8, 1956
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF., DECEMBER 11, 1956
SEATTLE, WASH., DECEMBER 13 AND 14, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
85333 WASHINGTON : 195T
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
PART 1
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICM ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
WASHINGTON, D. C. NOVEMBER 12, 13, AND 14, 1956
YOUNG STOWN, OHIO, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 3 AND 4, 1956
LOS ANGELES, CALIF., DECEMBER 5, 6, 7, AND 8, 1956
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF., DECEMBER 11, 1956
SEATTLE, WASH., DECEMBER 13 AND 14, 1956
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INCLUDING INDEX)
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
85333 WASHINGTON : 1957
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representai;ives
FRANCIS B. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
JAMES B. FRAZIER, JK., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
BDWIN B. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Oliio
Richard Arens, Director
II
'V
CONTENTS
[Where possible, documents referred to during the proceedings are reproduced
in the Appendix, Part 2, of this series]
Washington, D. C, November 12, 1956: Testimony of— Pae*
Archibald B. Roosevelt and Zygmund Dobbs 6142
Abner Green 61 54^
Afternoon session:
Abner Green (resumed) 6173
John Lautner 6178
Abner Green (resumed) 6179
Harriet Barron 6185
John Lautner (resumed) 6188
Harriet Barron (resumed) 6188
John Lautner (resumed) 6188
Harriet Barron (resumed) 6189
Albert L. Colloms 6195
George B. Murphy, Jr 6203
Dorothy Funn Swan 6218
Dorothy S. Strange 6221
November 13, 1956: Testimony of —
John Lautner (resumed) 6225
Charles Musil 623^
Irving Xovick 6238
John Lautner (resumed) 6240
Irving Novick (resumed) 6241
Carl Marzani 6247
Afternoon session:
Frank Ilchuk 6256
Frances MacKinnon Damon (Frances Damon Williams) 6263
Russ (Russell) Nixon 6274
Emma Louise Mallv 6280
Hugh Mulzac 6286
Alec Jones 6292
Belle Bailynson 6298
Mona Schneider Jones 6303
November 14, 1956: Testimony of —
Sol Rotenberg 6307
Hugo Gellert 632&
Constantine Ossip 6332
John Lautner (resumed) 6338
Afternoon session:
Jeanette Stern Turner 6340
A. Harry Levitan 6349^
Herman Thomas 6350
A. Harry Levitan (resumed) 6350
Herman Thomas (resumed) 6352
A. Harry Levitan (resumed) 6352
Nina Parris 6363
Ruth E. Hillsgrove 636&
Frances Gabow 6371
Herman Thomas (resumed) 6372
Frances Gabow (resumed) 637;i
Youngstown, Ohio, November 28, 1956: Testimony of —
Elsie Zazrivy 6377
Donald T. Appell 6386
Elsie Zazrivy (resumed) 638&
M. Y. Steinberg 6391
Evelyn Abelson 6397
Afternoon session:
Bessie Steinberg 64 14-
Hymen Schlesinger 6424
Joseph Rudiak .... 6434
Allan D. McNeil 6441
ni
IV CONTENTS
Chicago, 111., Decembers, 1956: Testimony of: Page
Saul Grossman '6460
Stephen J. Schemanske 6488
Saul Grossman (resumed) 6489
Stephen J. Schemanske (resumed) 6490
Saul Grossman (resumed) 6491
Afternoon session
Stephen J. Schemanske (resumed) 6492
Mignon Peggy Wellman 6502
Margaret Fisliman 65 17
Charles A. Hill 6522
Stanley Nowak 6529
Dolores Storich 6543
Tillie (Carle) Rogers 6547
December 4, 1956, Testimony of:
Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr 6553
Anzelm A. Czarnowski 6562
Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr. (resumed) 6564
Anzelm A. Czarnowski (resumed) 6565
Afternoon session:
Ruth Heit 6585
Ernest DeMaio 6596
Helen Lewis 6602
Alma Foley 6607
Lucille Bartlett 6612
Alma Erikson 6615
Clarence A. Hathaway 6617
John R. Starks 6621
Los Angeles, Calif., December 5, 1956 6629
December 6, 1956: Testimony of —
Delphine Murphy Smith 6633
Stephen A. Wereb 6641
Delphine Murphy Smith (resumed) 6642
Stephen A. Wereb (resumed) 6646
Carl Brant 6651
John Uhrin 6660
Afternoon session:
Charles Gladstone 6667
Frank J. Whitley 6674
Sanford Goldner 6678
Janet Stevenson 6691
Josephine Yanez Van Leuven 6697
Anita Schneider 6699
Josephine Yanez Van Leuven (resumed) 6699
Harry Carlisle 6703
David Hyun 6711
December 7, 1956: Testimony of —
Anita Schneider (resumed) 6723
Leonard Ludel 6742
Frank Wilkinson 6747
Howard Goddard 6754
Morris Goodman . 6756
Afternoon session:
Rose Chernin Kusnitz 6763
Jerome Land 6773
Esther Shandler 6784
Marva Bovingdon 6790
Cone C. Young 6795
Anne Perpich McTernan 6799
Stephen H. Fritchman 6808
December 8, 1956: Testimony of —
Rose Chernin Kusnitz, (resumed) 6821
Marguerite Robinson 6831
Irene Terrazas 6837
Peter Hyun 6838
Lillian Doran 6847
Ethel Linn 6851
Martin Hall 6854
CONTENTS V
San Francisco, December 11, 1956: Testimony of — ' Page
Grace Partridge 6866
Louis Goldblatt 6878
Clair Jensen 6889
Afternoon session:
Aubrey Grossman 6896
William Heikkila 6914
Cleophas Brown 6920
Victor Arnautoff 6924
Seattle, Wash., December 13, 1956: Testimony of —
Burt Nelson 6939
Barbara Hartle 6943
Burt Nelson (resumed) 6943
Barbara Hartle (resumed) 6946
William A. Wheeler 6951
Barbara Hartle (resumed) 6952
Marion Kinney 69 58
Afternoon session:
liawrence Sef ton 6969
Rachmiel Forschmiedt 6971
Walter Belka 6973
Dirk De Jonge 6976
Mary Jane Tancioco 6977
James S. Fantz 6979
Myrna Anderson 6982
Sarah Hortense Lesser 6984
Ray Glover 6992
Robert Cummings 6995
Victor Todd 6999
Valerie Lee Taylor 7001
Clayton VanLydegraf 7004
Seattle, Wash., December 14, 1956: Testimony of —
Louise Hatten 7019
Julia Ruuttila 7024
Vincent Howard 7035
Norman Haaland 7037
John Daschbach 7041
Afternoon session:
Pearl Castle 7051
Barbara Hartle 7052
Pearl Castle (resumed) 7053
T-illian Rubicz 7053
John Caughlan 7056
Barbara Hartle (resumed) 7060
John Caughlan (resumed) 7060
Milford A. Sutherland 7071
Index i
1 Testimony of Wilhelnilna Loushrey (correct spelling, Wilhelmlne Lougbry) and Law-
rence Lowe on December 11, 1!>36, appears in Investigation of Communist Propaganda In
the United States, Part 3, pp. 6135-6139.
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The leg-islation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
763, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, " * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121, STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make, from time to time, investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attaclis
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any sucli chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
vn
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
• * * * * * »
RuleX
standing committees
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress ;
****** 0
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
* * * * ^ * *
RxjleXI
powers and duties of committees
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make, from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of
such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to
take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpeuas may be issued under the
signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
vm
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. 0.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
vened, pui-suant to call, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus room, Old House
Office Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter, of Pennsylvania (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Francis E. Walter,
of Pennsylvania and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director, and Donald T. Ap-
pell, investigator.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will be in order.
Today the Committee on Un-American Activities begins a series of
hearings on what may well constitute the most dangerous area of
Communist activity in the United States; a broad and devious cam-
paign of political subversion.
Subversive activities of all kinds, of course, are the essence of the
Communist program in the United States. Political subversion is one
phase of this program. It consists of the efforts of the Communist ap-
paratus to paralyze legislative and executive action designed to expose
and obstruct the Communist Party members and its adherents.
During the past years a number of laws have been enacted to
strengthen the hands of our Government to deal with communism in
the United States.
The first of these was the Smith Act. More recently we have seen
the enactment of the Internal Security Act, the Communist Control
Act, and the vital security provisions of the Immigration and Nation-
ality Act. Besides this, various committees of the Congress have been
engaged in a continuous attempt to bring to light the activities of the
Communist conspiracy and to effect practical instruments for combat-
ing them.
Against all of this, the Communists have reacted with a concerted
campaign of propaganda, infiltration, and duplicity intended to con-
vince the naive and the uninformed tJiat these weapons represent far
more of a menace to our security than the Communists themselves.
With flagrant cynicism they have invoked a broad range of humani-
tarian appeals. Their real purpose, however, is not to strengthen our
traditions but to weaken them.
6141
6142 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The legislation wliich they attack is an expression of the will of the
American people. These various laws have been open to debate, to
public scrutiny and to public appraisal. The campaign of the Com-
munists on the other hand is not open to such inspection. It seeks to
conceal its real objectives; and parades with the mask of honesty and
reasonableness so that its treachery may go undetected.
During the past months, we have heard much, from people who
should have known better, about the Soviet "new look" and the oppor-
tunities for peaceful coexistence. We have been subjected to many
learned discussions on the supposed changed nature of Soviet com-
munism. It has required a brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of
Hungarian patriots to demonstrate that^the Soviet Union and Soviet
communism are incapable of any change or melioration.
The hearings which we are opening today are the result of intensive
staff investigation extending over nearly a year. It is evident from
the information thus far available to the committee that the Com-
munist campaign has these three purposes :
First. To obstruct the work of the congressional committees and
governmental agencies responsible for dealing with the Communist
organization.
Second. To persuade the American people that the threat of com-
munism has diminished.
Third. To create, by means of hundreds of Communist fronts, a
clamor for the amendment or repeal of anti- Communist legislation.
Besides creating front organizations, the Communists have also been
able to infiltrate a number of non-Communist organizations dedicated
to genuine humanitarian purposes. They ai-e attempting to lead these,
too, toward the achievement of Communist objectives. It is, of course,
true that the fact that tlie Communist Party favors or op]:)oses par-
ticular legislation does not in itself affect the intrinsic merit of that
legislation. But it is equally true that the Communist activity in
itself does represent a grave danger regardless of the specific objective
of its concern. These hearings, I would like to point out, do not deal
with any legislative or executive programs themselves but only with
the campaign instituted b}^ the Communist Party to destroy these
programs. During the following weeks the committee will hold fur-
ther hearings in key areas throughout the Nation for the purpose of
developing additional information on this subject.
The subcommittee appointed to conduct the hearing in Washington
in this series will consist of Mr. Morgan M. Moulder, of Missouri ; Mr.
Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio ; and myself as chairman.
We will now call the first witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Archibald Eoosevelt and Mr. Zygmund Dobbs.
The Chairman. Do you and each of you swear that the testimony
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RoosE\'ELT. I do.
Mr. DoBBS. I do.
TESTIMONY OF AECHIBALD B. ROOSEVELT AND ZYGMUND DOBBS
Mr. Arens. Gentlemen, will you kindly identify yourselves by
name, residence, and occupation ?
Mr. RoosE^TXT. Archibald B. Eoosevelt, Cold Spring Harbor, N. Y.,
tax-exempt bond investment banker.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6143
Mr. DoBBs. I am the research director of The Alliance, Inc., New
;3rork City.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Roosevelt, may I respectfully suggest that you tell
us a vord about the organization or organizations which you repre-
sent in the hearings today ?
Mr. RoosE^^LT. I represent not only The Alliance but the American
Coalition of Patriotic Societies, which is a coalition of various patri-
otic societies, and they have requested me to represent them in this one
phase of the Communist threat and conspiracy in regard to the Immi-
gration Act.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us, if you please, sir, a word
of explanation as to The Alliance organization ?
Mr. RoosE\'ELT. There is one other organization I represent in this
matter. Congressman Walter has received a letter from the Sons of
the American Revolution headquarters, signed by Harold L. Putnam,
asking me to represent them.
Mr. Arens. You speak for The Alliance, Inc., for the American
Coalition of Patriotic Societies, and for the Sons of the American
Revolution ?
Mr. Roosevelt. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us a word, if you please, sir,
respecting The Alliance? What is the organization, when was it
founded, and what are its purposes ?
Mr. Roosevelt. The Alliance organization was founded in the sum-
mer of 1953. It? purpose is research entirely on Communist activities.
The results of our studies are given without charge insofar as we have
the money and time to do it for anybody who requests it, or to the
people we think may use it. This ranges all the way from congres-
sional and senatorial committees right down to individuals in small
towns and villages.
Necessarily it is restricted because we haven't sufficient money or
the personnel.
Do you want to know about the type of staff ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Roosevelt. We have on the staff, Mr. Dobbs, on my left, who
is the director of the staff for research. Lest you should think, or
anybody would think, that we pick and choose and discriminate, we
are discriminating only in one fact: that is, we want Americans. So
we have on our staff people of Italian descent, Polish descent — first
generation Polish and Italian — we have Jewish people, we have one
excellent American Negro, and we have a few interlopers like myself
whose family has been here quite a while.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Roosevelt, as the chairman announced in his open-
ing statement, the committee is beginning today a series of hearings
respecting the counterattack by the Communist conspiracy in the
United States against that part of the Government's program, the
work of congressional committees, to expose the Communist opera-
tions. You have announced to us privatelj^ that the particular phase
of the counterattack which has been the basis of your f^tudy and of the
work of your organizations is that phase respecting the immigration
system.
I should therefore like to inzite your attention to that subject and
let you proceed at your own pace to make your presentation to the
committee.
6144 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RoosE^'^:LT. I have here a prepared statement which I passed
in just aniinute ago.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Roose-
velt's prepared statement on behalf of these organizations be incor-
porated at this point in the record, and that Mr. Roosevelt then pro-
ceed with an oral extemporaneous summary.
The Chairman. That will be incorporated.
(The statement follows :)
Statement of Me. Archibald B. Roosevelt
stjmmabt of the research department of the alliance, inc., on their investi-
gation of forces opposing the walter-mc carran immigration act
Most people don't realize that the Kremlin has already invaded America. The
reason that most Americans are not conscious of this invasion is due to the
fact that it has been going on gradually for 39 years. The Soviet leaders have
moved entire divisions of their political army into our country unnoticed by
all except a few security-minded citizens. These Red forces are a political
army which is civilian in appearance and walk the streets of America indis-
tinguishable from the rest of the population. Their weapons of war consisting
of infiltration into government, education, finance, and communication by sub-
version, disruption, poisonous propaganda, and espionage. They are largely
an invisible enemy acting behind fronts and, therefore, difiicult to pinpoint.
Operating as a disciplined and dedicated force they insinuate themselves into
various sensitive and key areas of our society.
Armed invasions, such as those in the past decade and a half into eastern
Europe are easy to detect, especially with the example in Hungary of armed
Soviet troops in uniform attacking and massacring patriotic civilians fighting
for freedom.
Although the results of this invasion are tragic and bloody they are at least
visible and the enemy can be seen and estimated wherever he is. This visible
invasion, however, is only a sequel to a previous invasion of Hungary which
was composed of Soviet partisans posing as civilians and refugees over a period
of many years as, for example, Bela Kun in the 1920's and Rakosi, just recently
deposed. Right after World War II this hidden army of invasion, with the
aid of Soviet troops, seized political power and began killing thousands of
innocent Hungarian citizens on trumped charges or with no charges at all.
The massacre of men, women, and children according to refugees was just as
great, if not greater than the current one, even though it did not have the
dramatic accompaniment of shellfire from Russian tanks and planes. The real
invasion of Hungary began in 1917 through immigration after the Bolshevik
revolution. The invasion of America by Soviet immigrant forces began at the
same time.
If we permit the Kremlin to undermine our society by filtering in a growing
army of Red agents, posing as immigrants, how can anyone but believe that the
end result will come as a horrible massacre of patriotic Americans which will
make the Hungarian experience seem tame in comparison? After seizing control
of our Government, the Reds' first order of business would be to exterminate
large portions of our population in order permanently to subdue the American
people.
The Kremlin leaders have constantly exhorted their followers in the United
States to redouble their efforts to seize control of the United States. The cap-
ture of power by the Reds in this country would be a shortcut to world domina-
tion. The Red leaders certainly must know that today Great Britain, France,
and other European nations are second- and third-rate nations, continually de-
clining from their former position as world powers. The Kremlin gang must
know that America is the very citadel of the free nations of the world. The
difficulties they are having with their satellites must convince the Soviet leaders
that they must redouble their efforts to weaken, undermine, and finally seize
power in America. They cannot but know that as long as our Nation stands
as a symbol of freedom their strength and position in their satellites are most
dangerous, and it cannot but be obvious to the Soviet leaders that the example
of America as a free system will inevitably doom the Red tyranny wherever
it has entrenched itself.
I
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6145
The Kremlin certainly has planned to send in their toughest and most hard-
ened forces from all over the world into the United States in order to facilitate
the conquest of this country by subversion. There is evidence that more than
ever they will continue to do so.
Ever since the formation of the Communist Party in 1919 the Soviet leaders
have considered the native-born Communist as insufficient and inadequate for
the purpose of seizing power. As a result, the control of the Communist appa-
ratus has been primarily in the hands of highly-trained hard-core alien Com-
munists. To build up a successful force the Kremlin must have a two-pronged
course of action in the United States. Firstly, they need an assurance that
their foreign-born operators (the "regulars" of their invading political army)
in this country will not be deported or denaturalized. This will insure the main-
tenance of those forces which the Red strategists have filtered in through our
weak immigration barriers throughout the years.
The second requirement for the conquest of America is to make certain that
the security checks against immigrants are weak and ineffective and that there
must exist loopholes through which swarms of Red agents can enter this country
to swell the size of the subversive forces. Such a growing army of Kremlin
forces in this country accompanied by swarms of well-meaning, but ignorant,
native-born dupes would inevitably result in the seizure of power from the hands
of a careless and unconcerned American people. If the Red Moscow strategists
are blocked in their attempt to sneak more agents into the United States and if
foreign-born Reds living here are sub.iect to deportation or severe restrictions'
then the Kremlin plot is seriously crippled. The Walter-McCarran Immigration
Act provides America with the legal weapons to stop the Red immigi-ation plot
dead in its tracks.
We know of no other country on earth where the alien or naturalized citizen
has more rights or opportunity for redress than in the United States under the
Walter-McCarran immigration law. Nowhere else are such pains taken to in-
vestigate, analyze, and doublecheck the circumstances of an alien before deporta-
tion. The range of appeals are so extensive that the must extensive pains are
taken to eliminate injustice or hardship in the immigration process.
In a recent conference in Detroit, Mich., the Reds issued a "legal prospectus"
where the following estimate of immigration prerogatives enjoyed by all nations
was given :
"The foundation upon which the structure of judicial apologia rests for the
validation of oppressive anti-foreign-born legislation is the thesis that a sov-
ereign nation may exercise a plenary power over the lives of foreigners within
its borders. Historically, it is true that sovereign nations have assumed, in the
name of that sovereignty, a limitless power over foreign-born persons who seek
to enter or remain in their territory. They have excluded at will, deported with-
out ceremony, and exacted capricious conditions for the right to remain. The
liberties, privileges, and protections of their laws have been extended as a matter
of grace, not of right, to be withheld or abridged in their limitless discretion."
In the very next sentence however, the same Reds considered the United States
not entitled to this long-established concept of rights of a government with re-
spect to an alien and impudently declare : "This country, however, has neither
the moral nor the legal nor the historical right to the plenary exercise of such
power."
Incidently we never hear Communists in the United States pointing to the
Soviet Union as a model to be emulated on alien or inmiigration policies. Soviet
deportation procedures are based on the thesis that a 8-cent bullet is quick in
solving a deportation problem and is much less expensive than a trip on an
ocean liner. In fact, alien Reds who are slated for deportation to the promised
land behind the Iron Curtain fight to remain here with an amazing display of
concern.
To keep foreign-born Red agents in this country and to help bring in addi-
tional Reds from abroad became a prime task for Comnnniist leaders here.
Without alien Reds the Conmiunist movement in the United States would be
ineffective and pitifully weak. In 1923 the Communists International sitting
in Moscow, praised the Reds in America for their work defending alien Soviet
agents as follows : *
"The Workers' Party was the only political party which concerned itself with
the struggle and the Councils for the Defence of the Foreign-born Workers,
^ From the Fourth to the Fifth World Congress. Koport of the Kxocutive Cuiuniittee
of the Communist Intornational. Printed 1924, p. 77.
6146 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
which were organized by the Party, have developed into organizations that em-
brace several hundred thousand workers."
Charles E. Ruthenberg, national secretary of the Workers (Communists)
Party urged the Red delegates at the third national convention (1923) to busy
themselves in the building of Councils for Protection of Foreign Born. During
that period the official publication of American Communists declared :
"The campaign for protection of the foreign-born workers established itself
as one of major political importance for the party [Communist Party — ed.] and
the working class * * * into the campaign to organize Councils for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born must be drawn the mass of workers in America * * *." ^
The Councils for the Protection of Foreign Born were not ordinary Communist
fronts. They were organized as a Communist organization designed to facilitate
the Red invasion of America by Soviet elements disguLsed as harmless immi-
grants. They were also organized to hinder all attempts by the United States
Government to denaturalize and deport foreign-born Commimists already here.
This Communist organization later changed its name to the National Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born. It was led, controlled, and directed by
members of the Central Executive Committee of the Communist Party of the
United States. In 1932 the name of this Communist apparatus was permanently
changed to the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. The
latter name is the one that has been carried to this very day and has been the
Kremlin vehicle in attacking and undermining the Walter-McCarran immigra-
tion law as well as all other anti-Red legislation. Communist leaders in the years
past have openly boasted in their publications that the American Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born is a Communist vehicle designed to wreck our
immigration, deportation, and naturalization machinery.
The American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born is not a member-
ship organization. Its current officers and sponsors have records of helping
Communist causes which would take up hundreds of pages to enumerate. In
checking the 74 names listed on a recent letterhead of this organization our
research stafif discovered that each and every person mentioned had a record
of pro-Communist activity. Included in this list are several known Soviet agents.
The American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born throughout the
years has developed slick and tricky forms of propaganda and organization in
order to arouse foreign-born and native-born Americans to fight against the
establishment of effective security measures against the Red enemy ; one of their
techniques has been for the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born to spawn numerous Red fronts designed to appear as independent liberal
groups fighting against injustice.
A Red front set up specifically to fight the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act
and the Internal Security Act of 1950 was promoted under the name of the
National Committee To Repeal the McCarran Acts.
This organization was designed to whip up sentiment against the immigration
law although it claims to be separate and apart from the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. A quick check, however, reveals the same
familiar leftist names among the sponsors. Since the ACPFB has been so thor-
oughly exposed as a Red organization the National Committee To Repeal the
McCarran Acts was created to arouse Americans against the internal-security
laws of our country under the guise that they were dangerous to law-abiding
residents.
The main propaganda barrage by the Reds repeats the claim that deportation
proceedings against Communists (there are about 360 cases so far) i-epresents
an attack against 14 million foreign-born residents. Communist propagandists
even stretch anti-Red legislation as to endangering all native-born Americans.
This propaganda line makes it appear that restrictions against a few Commu-
nists will snowball into a threat against millions of Americans.
It is amazing how numerous citizens fall for the Communist claim that an
attack against the Reds is an attack again.st all Americans. When a number of
pro-Nazi were deported from our shores a few years ago there was no outcry
Hint deportation of these totalitarians represented a blow against the liberty.
When Italian Fascists were expelled from this country there was no shout that
all Americans would suffer because of this. Actually, many dangerous criminals
have been deported from our shores and no one ventured to say that this would
represent a threat against 14 million foreign born.
It seems that only Communists are given preferred rating.
"Workers Montlily, a Communist magazine, October 1925, pp. 531-538.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6147
It seems that only Commuuist tutalitariaus arouse the bleeding hearts of the
"liberals" who manage to build up the deportation of Reds into a threat against
all Americans.
Such twisted and one-sided reasoning is a phenomenon of our age.
An ordinary criminal who has either robbed a bank or killed a person can
be deported without a single protest from the single voice "do-gooders" on his
behalf. But if a Red, who is plotting to overthrow the Government and intends
to help murder thousands of people in the process, is even threatened with
deportation, then there is an organized chant by a host of clergymen, profes-
sionals, educators, and politicians springing to his defense and screaming to the
high heavens about liberty, freedom, and the Bill of Rights.
The Communist propaganda line in dealing with Red deportees classify them
either as mothers, fathers, very old, sickly, or helpless. They sidetrack the fact
that Communists are deported for subversive activity. Surely, those who have
been murdering the patriotic Hungarians with a shot in the back could also be
classed mothers, fathers, and some are even very old. In fact, there is no more
dangerous Communists in the world than the one who is old and thoroughly
indoctrinated for many years. No one raised his voice in protest against the
deportation of Nazis because they wei'e either old or were the parents of Amer-
ican-born children. Why should not all totalitarians be given equal treatment
in the eyes of right-thinking people?
The intent and design of the Walter-McCarran immigration law is to give fair
treatment, in the American tradition, to the non-Communist foreign born and
the same time restrict or evict the Red enemy that lurks within our shores. The
murderous deeds of Red agents both in civilian clothes and in uniform across
the sea are perpetrated by exactly the same kinds of Communists as exist within
the boundaries in our country. They are all cut from the same cloth.
The Red forces in this country when given the same opportunity as those in
Poland or Hungary will butcher patriotic Americans in the same cruel manner
that we have witnessed on the European mainland.
Mr. Roosevelt. I would like to start out by saying that the greatest
inspiration that the staff and myself and tho.se supporters of the
alliance has had has been two very great individuals. Senator Mc-
Carran and Congressman Walter. We feared that everything had
finished when Senator Mc( 'arran liad died, but we now find that Con-
gressman Walter is equal in stature. We also appreciate a great deal
the people on this committee.
Some years ago we started a study on the Immigration Act only
from the Communist point of view. We did not take up the quota
situation. It is too big and too complicated for us to handle. We just
have a pinpointing proposition. We do realize just in passing that
one of our Presidents once said long before the Communist menace
that the United States should not be, as he said, a "polyglot boarding
house."
Mr. Arexs. Was that President one who carried the same name as
yours ?
Mr. Roosevelt. Yes, one of them. A very different one from the
last one. After going into the McCarran-Walter Act, we began to
realize that although it seems as though it is a foreign situation, it is
all part and ]:)arcel, as you outlined ])reviously in your o]>ening state-
ment, of the entire internal security situation of the United States.
Without careful screening of immigrants, the TTnited States can be
easily taken over just the way that Hungary was.
The present revolution in Hungary is largely due to gradual ii 'mi-
gration of foreign Communists before World War II. Anyone ^ ho
reads the papers today can see the result. We want to avoid that in
the Ignited States.
Mr. Arexs. (^ould you give us a word of the technique used by The
Alliance and its research staff in d?^ elo])ing the information respect-
ing the Comnnuiist drive to destroy the immigration system?
6148 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Roosevelt. After we became interested through the efforts of
tlie committee here, and through Senator McCarran, we picked out two
of our staff who had either been employed as witnesses or directly em-
ployed in the Immigration Service of the United States. They knew
what to look for. Obviously we have not the poAver of subpena or
getting witnesses, so we have to go to the various libraries in the
country. We had quite a staff looking over the newspapers, pamphlets,
magazine, speeches, statements, and so forth. I imagine that if we
counted it up, we looked over between 30,000 and 40,000 documents in
the last 2 years. I don't mean personally. It is impossible for any
one person to do so. But our group has done this.
Out of that we extracted such material as we thought bore on this
particular matter of seeing how this conspiracy started and how it had
developed. Not only were we interested in the great people who gave
us the inspiration, but we were interested in the opposition. The
opposition line, of course, started in the Daily Worker. Then it was
picked up by the various leftwing organizations, the ADA, and par-
ticularly that Communist organization, the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. You notice that I say Communist organi-
zation. If you wish, I can prove by their oAvn statements that they are
an agenc}^ of the Communists in Russia. They make no bones about
that. Of couise, you know as well as I that the hard core — what you
might call the professional army of professional Communists, mostly
consists of foreigners, with a few Americans. It operates largely
through Communist fronts or through well-meaning individuals with
bleeding hearts, whose hearts are soft, and unfortunately so are their
heads.
When you are fighting them, the way we do — I am not talking about
a committee in Congress now — we find out that they set up a front line
of these well-meaning people just tlie way Red soldiers in real warfare
send out a screen of women and children and peasants to be shot down.
That is exactly how the Communists work in their political organiza-
tions in this country.
At first we couldn't understand why all of these other organiza-
tions, like the ADA, American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, and all the leftwing groups, were so violently opposed to the
McCarran-Walter Act, while we heard nothing from the law-enforcing
agencies or the administration explaining the purpose of the law.
There was a peculiar silence there. In fact, it was worse than
silence. The presidential candidates of both parties in the last two
elections were constantly stating that the McCarran-Walter Act should
be, as they said, liberalized, which, in effect, meant it should be an-
nulled and all the teeth taken out of it. That is undoubtedly due to
the ])ropaganda put out largely by well-meaning brain-washed men
who are very busy and do not understand what goes on under the sur-
face of the Comnumist plot.
We have various documents which prove to us a couple of things.
One, that the Communist menace at home is — notice, I said at home—
the greatest menace to our Rejniblic today. That is one of our main
theses. Two, that uni-estricted innnigration is one, if not the most
important, weapon that the international Comnuniists can be given
for the conquest of the TT^nited States. I cannot overemphasize too
nmch that this is part and parcel of their attack on the overall secu-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6149
rity problem for our Republic against both internal and external
Communists or any other totalitarian subversion.
On page 8 of a pamphlet we published on the subject of The Com-
munist Immigration Peril we stated as follows :
Soou after setting up the Communist International, Lenin, Stalin, Molotov,
et al., realized that a vital requirement for world political warfare operations
was to facilitate the immigration processes which would allow the movement
and deployment of Communist political armies from one nation to another with
a minimum of legal immigration delays.
Coupled with the plan to establish freedom of emigration was a campaign
to give unhampered rights for those foreigners already established to carry on
subversive activities. In other words, complete freedom of emigration, which
in Bolshevik language was for the "unhampered shifting of political armies"
plus a campaign against deportation, which would permit the Red agents to
operate without danger of being removed from their sector of operation.
This double-edged program became sloganized as the "Fight for political
asylum" and the "Fight against deportation for political activity." In other
words, the problem was to move Red political soldiers freely into all sectors
and to prevent those subversive aliens already entrenched from being thrown
out of the country.
In our opinion, this is what the McCarran- Walter Act has success-
fully put into legislation, the means to block such movement of foreign
Reds within the United States.
The Chaikmax. May I interrupt at this point, Mr. Roosevelt, to
point out the fact that it is the aliens who Avere subject to the deporta-
tion laws, not citizens. A lot of these lef twing organizations and pub-
lications attempt to deceive the people into believing that an American
citizen can be deported. He cannot be deported. It is the alien who
commits a felony within 5 years or two felonies thereafter, or becomes
a member of the Communist Party. I don't know what is so unrea-
sonable about that.
Mr. Roosevelt. I think even more astonishing is that this outfit —
the worst outfit, the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born — claims it exists to protect 14 million foreign born in the United
States — they always stick to that number, 14 million. They even
started out in 1928 talking about the 14 million.
I did not notice any movement on the part of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born to try to save those Russian
aliens who were in here and were kidnaped by Soviet agents. Was
there, Mr. Walter ?
The Chairman. It is very significant to note that in all of these
attacks made by certain newspaper people no mention is ever made
of the fact that over 500 drug peddlers, white slavers, felons of all
sorts, have been deported under the provisions of the Walter-McCar-
ranAct. No word is ever mentioned of that.
Mr. Roosevelt. They talk about the fact that these 14 million ])eople
are in danger. I believe Mr. Abner Green in his report for the Amer-
ican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born on December 1 1 and
12, 1954, page 9, stated that the Attoi-ney General said that under the
McCarran-Walter Act, tlio Justice Department would deport 12,000
noncitizens and denaturalize 10,000 naturalized American citizens.
So far 1 believe a little ovei' '>00 subversive aliens are up, not for depor-
tation, but onlv for lioariiias. Perhaps you could check me on that.
That is a far crv from the 10,000 and 12,000.
Incidentally', if you add 12,000 and 10,000 it makes 22,000, which
would indicate that in the opinion of Mr. Abner Green, there are 22,000
85:{;i3--rj7 -pt. i u
6150 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
aliens in here that he can depend on for Communist professional
armies. Say that there are 5,000 deluded Americans who have become
Communists, if we could get rid of those 22,000, which according to
Abner Green are on his side, not 14 million, but 22,000, a great deal of
our problems of Communist infiltration, and Communist activity here
would be solved.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Roosevelt, did the stud)' of your staff of these many
thousands of documents lead you to any conclusion with respect to the
number of fronts which the Communist conspiracy has created in front
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born for the
purpose of brain washing the American people on this one law designed
to protect us against the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Roosevelt. We know of about 100 organizations, in 15 of the
most populous States. That does not include nice organizations that
are trying to protect some group of people and are coming out for the
repeal of the act, thus aiding the Communists.
Mr. ARE^^s. Has your study revealed the existence of 100 organiza-
tions in these 15 States which have been created by the Communist
conspiracy for the purpose of destroying the safeguards of the Immi-
gration and Nationality Act?
Mr. Roosevelt. Yes. I would be glad to submit the names.
Mr. Arens. We have those, and we will go into that during the
course of this series of hearings which will take us across the continent.
Mr. Roosevelt. I would be glad to submit the names and give our
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt. Coming right on to that subject, the prime mover
of this outfit is the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, headed by Mr. Abner Green. This has a long history. It has
changed its name slightly throughout the years. It started in 1923.
In the Workers' Monthly, on page 269, we have one reference.
Mr, Arens. In the Workers' Monthly, a Communist publication.
Mr. Roosevelt. Which is a Communist magazine; April 19, 1926.
Shall I read it?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt (reading) :
Councils for Protection of Foreign Born
In fact, there is no organized resistance to their passage outside that heing
rallied under the direction of the Councils for the Protection of the Foreign Born.
These councils are springing up all over the Nation in all the large industrial
centers. They provide the necessary centers for the mobilization of all elements
anxious to blast this plot in America's employing class to divide and conquer
American labor. This mobilization must include all who toil, both foreign and
native born, under the lash of capitalist industry within the confines of the
United States. The whole working class must unite as a unit. The reply to the
attack on the foreign born must be to develop this solidarity.
I can hand this in if you wish.
Mr. Arens. If you please.
Mr. Roosevelt. The earliest record we have on the Councils for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born is in 1923. They changed their name slightly
as they went along. I have here a pamphlet called From the Fourth
to the Fifth World Congress, which is a 1923 Report of the Executive
Committee of the Communist International sitting in the Kremlin.
It is on page 77, paragraph 4. It shows that in Moscow 33 years ago
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6151
they plotted infiltration of the United States by immigration. Shall
\ read that, sir ?
Mr. Arexs. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt (reading) :
A second very important activity of the party was the tight against the ex-
ceptional hiws which the American Government is planning against the foreign-
boni vrorkers of America, who comisrise the lowest strata of the proletariat. The
Workers' Party was the only political party which concerned itself with the
stru.irgle. and the councils for the defense of the foreign-born workers, which
were organized by the party, have developed into organizations that embrace
several hundred thousand workers.
Do 3'on wish me to submit that, sir ?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt. Then I have to show further developments, a pam-
phlet which is called The Communist, a Magazine of the Theory and
Practice of Marxism-Leninism. This is the issue of January 1931.
Here is an article on page 18, from the Report of the Political Com-
mittee to the 12th Central Committee Plenum, CPUS A" (Commimist
Party, United States) "November 22, 1930." Shall I read that, sir?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt (reading) :
For Protectiox of Foreign Born
Another special field of the development of our mass contacts, of oiu* mass
work, mass organization, is the lield of the foreign-born workers who are sub-
jected to special persecutions as a part of the general capitalist offensive against
the working class. We have made some beginnings in this direction. These
begimiings in the setting up of councils for the protection of the foreign born
have been very promising. They serve as another example to the party of how
necessary it is, if we want to organize support behind the party, to organize the
struggle of the masses, to tind their immediate burning concrete needs. Hundreds
o:^ thousands of the foreign-boni workers in the United States today feel the
menace of the projected legislation for fingerprinting of the foreign born, the
menace of deportation laws, the menace in the cities of special dismissais of
foreign-born workers in order to make jobs for natives; they feel the menace of
the setting of the Negroes against the foreign born. In this field of struggle
against the discriminations against the foreign born, we have one of the im-
portant channels of mass activity in the country today. Our efforts along this
line have received resiX)nse from the masses, * * *.
Mr. Arens. In what year was that published, please, sir ?
Mr. Roosevelt. 1931. I am just tracing the history of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. I appreciate that.
Mr. Roosevelt. I have here another document entitled "The Com-
munist Party in Action," by Mr. Alex Bittelman, published by the
Workers Library Publishers, May 1934. I am quoting now from
page 9 :
Under the leadership of the Communist Party, ever larger numbers of Ameri-
can workers, native and foreign born, white and black, are participating in the
fight against the political reaction of the capitalist class, and for the defense
of workers' rights. For these struggles some special organizations have been
created, such as the International Labor Defense and the Council for the Pro-
tection of the Foreign Korn, organizations that embrace all workers, regardless
of tlieir political affiliation, a united front of the masses for the tight against
the political reaction of the ruling class and for the defense of workers' rights
under the leadership of the party.
6152 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
I want to read from another document called "Proceedings, 10th
Convention, Communist Party, New York State, May 20-23, 1938,"
page 310, paragraph 10 :
Foreign Born
Resolved, That we, 850 delegates of the 10th convention of the Communist
Party, State of New York, go on record supporting full defense of the eco-
nomic and politifiil rights of the foreign born to jobs and relief, for an end to
the deportation of foreign born, and for the reestablishment of the American
tradition of the right of asylum for political and religious refugees in the
United States. Resolved further, That we support the program of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born which fights to win full and equal
rights for the foreign born in the United States.
There is certainly no question that in 1938 the American Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born was an organic part of the Com-
munist machine.
Mr. Roosevelt. I have here Political Affairs, V. J. Jerome, editor,
a Magazine Devoted to the Theory and Practice of Marxism-Leninism,
February 1951 issue, which is devoted to a report of the 15th national
convention of the Communist Party of the United States of America.
Page 127 reads :
The Civil Rights Congress, under the able leadership of William Patterson
and Aubrey Grossman, is the logical inheritor of the ILD's record and experi-
ences, and the Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born, led by the
devoted and indefatigable Abner Green, performs invaluable service in the
fight against the Government's deportation drive. It is the duty of all progres-
sives to appreciate the need of these organization.s, help raise funds, and support
their work.
Mr. Roosevelt. Another interesting study that we made is of the
letterheads of recent letters written by the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. We made a study of those people listed
on the letterheads.
The difficulty is that it would take a couple of hundred pages to list
all of the leftwing affiliations, and in many cases open Communist
affiliations of the peo])le on the letterheads. If the committee wants
such a study, we shall be delighted to do it. There are 74 names on the
letterhead. All have a record of leftist affiliations.
Mr. Arens. We Avould be happy to have it, sir.
Mr. Roosevelt. We are accu.sed that all that we are doing is tearing
down, so if the committee would not mind it, I would like to give my
suggestions as to what should be done to help on this particular subject
of the immigration situation.
I wrote a little brochure as to what should be done, but I found out
afterwards it didn't go nearly far enough after we delved further inta
the immigration problem.
First of all, I quote from it now :
Enemies of America are leading a campaign to scuttle the new immigration
statutes so as to open the door once again to the Red hordes.
Here are some of the things that aroused Americans can do to stop thia
betrayal :
1. Individuals and organizations should solicit from Congressmen and Senators
open public support of the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act and to get prom-
ises of further plugging of loopholes against Red infiltration. Those of the law-
makers who do not support this law should be forced to stand up and be counted^
publicly.
I would like to add onto that that 1 have learned since, and I en-
tirely agree with the people who say that the Walter-McCarran Act
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6153
should be revised. It should be revised so that it is much stronger,
much more powerful, not that it should be watered down ; that it should
be tightened because Communists, like some other people, are schemers.
They started studying this long before it was even talked of in the
newspapers. They are studying now, and they have every loophole
worked out. So you have to go Ijack to the study of the law and find
out the loopholes and tighten the McCarran Act still further and revise
it so it is stronger.
2. Letters and telegrams should be sent not only to legislators, but also to
newspapers, magazines, and commentators on radio and TV. Those who oppose
our security laws should be exposed for their stand, while those who fight for
such laws should receive commendation and support.
3. This is not a partisan issue. All nonpolitical avenues such as the pulpit,
social clubs, and fraternal organizations should be aroused to back a program for
greater internal security.
Adding on to that, I think that a thorough investigation should be
made of orders given to the United States Immigration and Naturali-
zation Service. If you read Mr. Abner Green's report — incidentally,
a thorougli investigation of Mr. Abner Green should be made, among
other things why did he change his name and other relevant
matters — and see his report on page 9 of the New York City confer-
ence of 1954, of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, where he states that the Attorney General estimated they should
deport the 12,000 noncitizens and denaturalize the 10,000 citizens.
You can see the difference in what the Attorney General suggested
and what little has happened. Why the failure to enforce this law ?
I think the American public are entitled to know why there has not
been rnore enforcement of the Walter-McCarran Act, more telling of
the people throughout the United States what it means, and we should
have a very thorough investigation as to why immigration officials
were so lax, if not something worse, in allowing these frightful kid-
napings and browbeatings by Soviet agents, so that it is dangerous
for a non-Communist Russian, and it will be dangerous for a non-
Communist Hungarian of any importance to live in the United States.
They talk so much of asylum, tliese Americans for Protection of the
Foreign Born. Here are people who wanted asylum, and I never heard
Mr. Abner Green make a peep about the kidnapings.
Are there any questions ?
The Chairman. Asylum means infiltration to those people.
Mr. Roosevelt. It cloes in their case.
Mr. Arens. Thank you very much. Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Dobbs.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Roosevelt. I am sure I am ex-
pressing the sentiments of our committee when I say that we deeply
appreciate the work that your organization is doing. It is unfortunate
that more people are not doing the same tiling, and that more i^eople
are not aware of the danger or aware of how they can be imposed upon.
Just recently a resolution was adopted by a church organization in
my district — I went to the trouble of finding out where it came from —
I found it had been written in the C/ommtmist Party headquarters
in Los Angeles. I can prove it. So it just goes to show that unless
people are aware, they can be imposed upon.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Abner Green, kindly come forward.
6154 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help 3'ou God ?
Mr. Green. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ABNER GREEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH FORER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Green. My name is Abner Green. I live at 310 East 39th
Street, New York City, N. Y. As to my occupation, I decline to
answer on the ground that this committee has no authority to conduct
this inquiry and is violating my rights under the first amendment and
my privileges under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Just a minute. What trouble do you think that
you would get into if you stated your occupation ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer that for the reasons I just stated.
The Chairman. Are you ashamed of your occupation ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not at all.
The Chairman. Then state it.
Mr. Green. I decline for the reasons I have just sta,ted, sir.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing toda}', Mr. Green, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities.
Mr. Green. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. That subpena requires j-ou to produce certain letters,
leaflets, documents, and minutes, does it not ?
Mr. Green. Yes ; it does.
Mr. Arens. Are you the custodian of the minutes, documents, leaf-
lets described in the subpena which was served upon you ?
(Witness consulted his counsel. )
Mr. Green. The main difficulty in respect to what documents, min-
utes, and copies of correspondence I may have in my possession re-
volves around the description of the documents which have been
subpenaed here by this committee.
Mr. Arens. Let us read them, then. Are you, Mr. Green, the cus-
todian of letters, copies of letters, leaflets, and documents, passing
between the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
its officers and agents, and the New England Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Forer. Excuse me. The subpena describes those letters.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Are you the custodian of the documents to which
I haA^e j ust al 1 uded ?
Mr. Green. That is
Mr. Arens. Do you have letters in your possession or control?
Mr. Green. I ha^e many letters in my possession.
Mr. Arens. Passing between the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born and the Ncav England Connnittee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. That is not Avhiit the subpena directed me to produce,
Mr. Arens. The subpena directed you to produce documents de-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6155
scribed in the attachment to the subpena, and I am alluding to that
now. Do you have documents, letters, passing between the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and the New England
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. But the subpena
The Chairman. Read the subpena.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
All letters and copies of letters, and all leaflets and documents of any nature
whatsoever Incoming and outgoing passing between the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and its officers and agents, and the New England
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, the New York Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, the Eastern Pennsylvania Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born ( also known as the Philadelphia ) Committee, the Western Penn-
sylvania Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born, the Ohio Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Midwest Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born, the Michigan Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born,
the ^Minnesota Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Los Angeles
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Northern California Commit-
tee for the Protection of Foreign Born, the Northwest Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born (also known as the Washington) Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, the Oregon Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born,
their officers and agents, during the period January 1, 1953, to October 20, 1956,
designed to revise, repeal, influence the revision or repeal of the (o) Smith Act;
(ft) Internal Security Act; and (c) Immigi-ation and Nationality Act.
Do you have in your possession copies of such documents that I have
described ?
JNIr. Green. My problem is to arrive at — an attempt to arrive at — a
conclusion of correspondence designed to influence or repeal the Smith
Act, Internal Security Act, and the Immigration and Nationality Act,
and the difficulty to seek to define that term, I find difficulty in answer-
ing the question as to whether I have such documents in my possession
or control.
Mr. Arens. Do you have documents pertaining to any correspond-
ence between the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born and the other connnittees or organizations to which I have just
alluded in reading tlie attachment to your subpena ?
Mr. Green. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have them with you ?
3Ir. Green. No.
Mr. Arens. Will you produce those before the Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Green. Produce what ?
Mr. Arens. The documents to wliich we have just alluded.
Mr. Green. Perhaps I should have the record read so I know what
the allusion is to.
Tlie Chairman. You were subpenaed to bring certain documents.
Did you bring any documents at all ?
Mr. Green. No, sir.
]\Ir. Arens. Mr. Chairman, in order that the record be abundantly
clear. I respectfully request that our record at this point reveal an
excerpt, "Proceedings before the Subversive Activities Control
Board of February 10, 1956," in which this witness, Mr. Abner Green,
was interrogated witli respect to books and records of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born; in response to a particular
question pertaining to those records, the witness stated, and I quote :
They are in my sole custody as executive secretary of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
6156 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, did you appear on the date of February 10,
1956, before the Subversive Activities Control Board ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. It is a matter of public record, Mr. Arens.
Mr, Green. On the grounds which I stated previously.
The Chairman. Now I direct you to answer this question.
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer on the grounds stated previously in
opening my testimony.
The Chairman. You understand you are being asked about some-
thing that is a matter of public record, and you refuse to answer that
question ?
Mr. Green. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, so this record may be abundantly clear,
I res])ectfully suggest that here and now Mr. Green be ordered and
directed to produce forthwith the documents called for in the subpena
duces tecum which was served upon him by this committee.
The Chairman. That is not necessary. The subpena duces tecum
was properly served on him. He stated that he did not bring any
records at all. That is enough. I direct you to answer the question
that I previously asked concerning your statement before the Subver-
sive Activities Control Board.
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer on the ground that this committee
has no authority to go into this matter, and that the question violates
my rights under the first amendment, and my pri^nlege under the
fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. As to the documents called for by the subpena, in addi-
tion to the fact that tlie subpena itself is vague, I also want to state
that the demand for these documents is not only beyond the scope and
authority of the commmittee, but also a violation of my rights under
the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest at this point that
the subpena duces tecum together with attachments be incorporated
in the record.
The Chairman. That will be done.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. la-c," see appendix, pp. 7083-
Y085.)
Mr. Arens. Mr, Green, have you ever refused before a court to pro-
duce the records of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Or the Civil Eights Congress, before a court or a grand
jury ?^
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground that the question
violates my privilege under the fifth amendment to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of an article
appearing in the Washington Star, July 28, 1951, quoting Abner
Green to the effect, "I will not obey court orders to produce Civil Rights
Congress' records before a Federal grand jury." I ask you if that is
a true and correct quotation of your statement ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 2," see appendix, p. 7086.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6157
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for tlie reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Gr}':en. I decline, sir, for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I have already stated my reasons for refusing to answer
that question, and it is the same ground.
The Chairman. I did not hear you. What was the reason?
Mr. Green. That this committee does not have the authority under
its charter to investigate this matter, to go into the question of
efforts to influence Federal legislation, and that the question violates
my rights under the first amendment and my privilege under the
fifth amenchnent not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. I am not asking anything about the activities of
the organization. I am merely asking you if you are a member of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer, sir, for the reasons stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, we will have a great number of exhibits
to be used in connection with this witness' testimony. I should like to
request that the Chair order that the exhibits as offered be appro-
priately marked and incorporated in the record. It will save time.
The Chairman. Let it be understood unless there is objection to the
exhibits offered that they will be made a part of the record.
Mr. ScHERER. The witness has refused to answer the question as to
whether or not he is a member
Mr. FoRER. You mean I can object to these documents?
The Chairman. Yes. Then we will pass on it.
Mr. Scherer. The witness has just said that he refuses to answer
the question as to whether he is a member of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born because it is beyond the scope and
power of this committee to ask that question. I have a question that
there is no question about. Are you a member of the Communist
Party today ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer, sir, on the grounds stated previously
that the question is an invasion of my rights under the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, have you refused to produce the records of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born before the
Supreme Court of the State of New York ?
Mr. Green. I am sorry, I didn't get the question.
Mr. Arens. Did you in 1955 refuse to produce the records of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born before the
Supreme Court of the State of New York pursuant to an action
initiated in that State?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for tlie reasons previously stated.
Mr. AiiENS. I lay before you, Mr. Green, a copy of an article ap-
pearing in the New' York Beacon, issued by the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. It states, in effect, that an action
was initiated by the State of New York for the production of the
records of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
and the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I
ask you if that article, so far as you know, is a true and correct pres-
entation of the facts ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 3," see appendix, p. 7087.)
6158 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Who is Irving Novick ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Was Irving Novick executive secretary of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born immediately prior to your
ascendancy to that office ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, at this point
that the record include excerpts from the transcript of the hearing
before the Subversive Activities Control Board on Februai'v 10, 1956,
in which Mr. Green testified that Irving Novick was his ))redecessor
in the committee and one Marjorie Spector was an aide in that
organization.
The Chairman. Did you so testify before the Subversive Activities
Control Board ?
Mr. Green, I direct you to answer this question, the question as to
whether or not you testified that Novick preceded you as secretary for
the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born,
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, did you lead a National Conference to
Defend the Bill of Rights, December 2, 1950, in New York City ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answ^er for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, if you please, sir, to a copy of
a leaflet entitled "Fight Deportation," March 1951, issued by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, pertaining to a
National Conference to Defend the Bill of Rights, in New York City,
December 2, 3, 1950, in which the following appears :
A press conference should be held with invitations sent to the local metro-
politan press, foreign language, labor, church, community, and civic newspapers
and publications. The families of deportees — especially those going to Wash-
ington— should be present to be interviewed by the press as well as a few promi-
nent members of the community, national group, or defense committee. * * *
The families of the deportees will meet in Washington on March 27 and 28 to
protest to the President, Attorney General, Commissioner of Immigration and
Naturalization, Congressmen, and other Government officials. A program of
activity in Washington is now being organized and details will be sent to you soon.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 4a, b," see appendix, pp. 7088,-
7089.)
I ask you whether or not you participated in that conference and
outlined that program alluded to in the document before you.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Scpierer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer. I can't
see how an answer to that would incriminate him.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a
publication entitled, "The Lamp," published by the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign JBorn. It contains references to
a National Conference To Defend the Rights of Foreign Born held
in New York City on December 11 and 12, 1954, attended by partici-
pants from 16 States and the District of Columbia. It also sets forth
a schedule of tlie conferences and the program outlined by American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born for 1955. Will you
kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not that is a true
and correct representation of the conferences and program scheduled
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6159
for the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born for 1955
in which you participated ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 5," see appendix, pp. 7089-7091.)
Mr. Arens. Have you been active in the course of the last few years
in immigration matters uf any kind or character?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. What possible trouble do you think you could
get into if you admitted that you were active in trying to prevent the
deportation of anyone for anything?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I invite your attention to a bulletin issued
by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in
which is set forth, among other things, a memorial to Congress. I
should like to read certain excerpts and ask you some questions about
it.
State legislatures : The Walter-MeCarran law is Federal legislation, adopted
by the United States Congress. Tliere is, therefore, nothing that any State
or local legislature can do about the provisions of the law since only Congress
can repeal or amend it.
State and local legislatures, however, can make important contributions to
the fight to repeal or amend the Walter-McCaiTan law. This can be done by
the legislature adopting a memorial to Congress, or perhaps a special resolution
to memorialize Congress.
To summarize this : it suggests communicating with all contacts, or-
ganizations, and individuals in all communities which received this
bulletin, to contact members of State legislatures and to try within
many States legislatures to get resolutions adopted. The bulletin
says, and I shall now quote :
We enclose, as guides, copies of legislation introduced in State and local
legislatures in the past. This is intended as a guide to you, and also to help
convince State or local legislators to take action. Attached are copies of legis-
lation from —
"1. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts State Legislature.
"2. City Council of Philadelphia, Pa.
"3. New York State Assembly.
"4. New Jersey State Senate.
"5. Pennsylvania State House of Representatives."
I lay that bulletin before you and ask you what part, to your cer-
tain knowledge, the Communist conspiracy had in causing to be enacted
or introduced in these several State or city legislatures enumerated
in that bulletin, resolutions condemning the Walter-McCarran Immi-
gration and Nationality Act ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 6a-e," see appendix, pp. 7091-
7094.)
Mr. FoRER. May we have the question again ?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. FoRER. Do you want him to answer that question ?
Mr. Arens. Certainly we do. We wouldn't have posed it. To your
certain knowledge.
Mr. FoRKR. I think it is a bad question.
Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge, did the Communist con-
spiracy take a part in undertaking to persuade these various govern-
mental bodies to pass the resolutions alluded to in that bulletin ?
6160 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. FoRER. Mr. Arens, your formulation is now different from the
one that was read. Let him answer the question that was read.
Mr. Arens. The counsel's sole and exclusive prerogative is to advise
the witness on his constitutional rights.
Mr. Forer. He can only answer one question at a time.
Mr. Arens. If counsel wants to be sworn, we will have him sworn
and testify.
Mr. Green. In response to the question read, to my knowledge, none
at all.
Mr. Arens. Did you take a hand in undertaking to persuade State
legislatures, city councils, to pass such resolution ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist conspiracy at
the time you took a hand in undertaking to cause such resolutions to
be passed ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, under your direction and the direction of the Communist con-
spiracy, was active in attempting to procure such resolutions ?
Mr. Green. Is that a question ?
Mr. FoRER. Too many questions.
Mr. Green. It is not a question.
Mr. ScHERER. What was this ?
Mr. Green. It was not a question. It was a statement.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact.
Mr. Forer. Then you have about 18 different facts.
Mr. Arens. Counsel should compose
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that he be directed to answer the question. I
understood the question.
Mr. Green. I don't understand the question. I would like to have
it read.
(The reporter read the question.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. The problem arises still from the question, the fact
that it has 2 or 3 different statements of fact.
Mr. Arens. Let us be a little more specific. I lay before you now
a report by Abner Green, executive secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born to the National Conference To
Defend the Rights of Foreign Born, New York, December 1954. In
this report on page 19, we find the following :
There are today about 100 organizations in 15 States organized to work
exclusively for the defense of the rights of the foreign born. These States where
such committees function include Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New
Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Missouri,
Washington, Oregon, and California, etc.
(Document marked "Exliibit VI," appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
I lay that document before you, please, Mr. Witness
Mr. Green. Counsel will hand it to me.
Mr. Arens. I lay it before the witness, if you please, and ask you
if you made that report to the national conference.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Would you hand it to Mr. Arens, please ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6161
Mr. Akens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee the truth, as to whether or not you made the report to the na-
tional conference stating that there are today about 100 organizations
in 15 States organized in the manner outlined in this report, that you
would be supplying information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. It is possible.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, did you have a hand in the organizing of
these 100 organizations in 15 States ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a list of the 100 organizations alluded to
in your report to the National Conference To Defend the Rights of
Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
did organize 100 organizations under your auspices in 15 States, all
designed to destroy the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. Would that information be available had he pro-
duced the documents under subpena ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I notice in looking at tlie subpena that the second
paragraph was not referred to. Mr. Green, a subpena duces tecum
was served on you and you have stated that you have not brought any
of the records and giving a reason. Under section 2 or paragraph 2 of
that subpena, it is provided :
Excerpts from the minutes of all meetings of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born during the period January 1, 1953, to October 20,
1956, showing all action taken and all consideration given to proposals to revise,
repeal, and influence the revision or repeal of the (a) Smith Act, (6) Internal
Security Act, and (c) the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Did you bring the excerpts of tlie minutes mentioned in paragraph 2
of the subpena duces tecum ?
Mr. Green. In response to that, I would like to read you, Mr.
Chairman, a very brief statement.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Forer. This is his position on tlie subpena.
Tlie Chairman. Did you bring those excerpts of the minutes?
Mr. Green. As I stated in the opening of my testimony, the main
problem I faced with respect to bringing any documents with me was
the general wording of the second page of the subpena.
The Chairman. Then tlie answer is that you did not bring the
documents mentioned in paragraph 2 of the subpena duces tecum.
Mr. Green. No; because in addition to that, it is my firm conviction
that the demand for the production of these documents goes beyond
the authority of the committee, and that this committee has no autlior-
ity under is charter and is forbidden by the first amendment to inquire
into private communications not addressed to Congress dealing Avith
the influencing of public opinion for the repeal or revision of legisla-
tion. I understand so much is clear from the decisions of th& TTnited
States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, and the Su-
preme Court of tlie United States in the Rumly case.
6162 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. Now I direct you to produce the articles men-
tioned in the subpena duces tecum on the second page.
Mr. Greex. For the reasons stated, I cannot and refuse to produce
them.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, are you registered or have you ever been
registered witli the United States under the Lobbying Act?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born presently registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated,
Mr. Arens. I lay before you reproductions of certain articles ap-
pearing in issues Nos. 77, 80. 85, and 92 of the Lamp, published ac-
cording to its masthead by the American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. These articles outline a program of political ac-
tivity by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
calling upon the recipients to write their Congressmen and to par-
ticipate in various conferences and organizations, all designed to cause
the repeal or drastic amendment of the Immigration and Nationality
Act. I invite your attention to these documents and ask you whether
or not you set up the various conferences and directed the program
alluded to in these publications ?
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 7a-d,-' see appendix, pp. 7094-
7101.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I invite your attention to an article appear-
ing in the Daily Worker of July 21, 1954, under the byline of Abner
Green, executive secretary, American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, in which appears the following :
* * * All candidates for Congress should be visited in person by delegations
from their own district for the purpose of getting a commitment, if possible^
that, if elected, he will sponsor the Lehman-Celler bill or appropriate legisla-
tion to repeal or revise basically the Walter-McCarran law. * * *
I ask you if you were the author of that article.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 8," see appendix, pp. 7101, 7102.)
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Tillie Carle?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Tillie Carle was a member and in charge of the Midwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons pre\'iously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever under oath identified Tillie Carle as
a person knoAvn bj^ you to be in charge of the Midwest office of the
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green. T decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a reproduction of an article
appearing in the Lamp, more specifically, to certain committees
alluded to as having been formed by the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, including the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, the Freedom of the Press Committee
Against Deportation, the Finnish American Freedom Committee, the
Andrulis Defense Committee, the Podolski Defense Committee, the
New York Chapter of the American Yugoslav Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, and others. I ask you if that is a true and
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6163
correct reproduction of the facts with reference to the creation of
these committees?
Mr. FoRER. I think you made a mistake. You said that this said
the American Committee had established these other organizations.
Mr. Arens. Let me ask him. Did tlie American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born establish these organizations?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly look at the exhibit and tell us what
knowledge you have of the creation of those organizations alluded to
in the Lamp, the official publication of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 9," see appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you, Mr. Green, a reproduction of an article
appearing in issue No. 94 of the Lamp. It sets forth offices of sub-
ordinate units of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, and I shall read this to you :
Know Your Rights
Agents of the Justice Department are continuing their campaign of harass-
ment of foreign-born Americans. Noncitizens and naturalized citizens in large
numbers are being visited, stopped on the streets, or sent letters urging them to
come to offices of I&NS on an "official" matter. * * *
The ACPFB recommends that any person having problems arising out of for-
eign birth should contact a capable immigration or civil-rights attorney, the
ACPFB, or any of the offices listed below :
Pittsburgh : 806 Renshaw Building
Detroit : 920 Charlevoix Building
Chicago : 431 South Dearborn, room 325
Minneapolis : 302 Lumber Exchange Building
Seattle : 538 Second and Cherry Building
San Francisco : 948 Market Street, room 418
Los Angeles : 326 West Third Street, room 318
I ask you if you have knowledge of the existence of those offices
alluded to in that exhibit?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 10," see appendix, p. 7104, 7105.)
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a leaflet respect-
ing a mass protest rally held under the auspices of the Claudia Jones
Defense Committee on February 29, 1948. I ask you whether or not
this organization was created by the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Who was Ferdinand Smith?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Ferdinand Smith was a member of tlie Communist con-
spiracy, was he not ?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Who was Claudia Jones?
Mr. Greex. T decline to ansAver for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Claudia Jones was a member of tlie Comnninist con-
spiracy, was she not ?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. T observe in this leaflet which I lay before you that
among the principals to take cliarge of the meeting were Kicliai-d B.
Moore, Abner Green, executive secretary, American Connnittee for
6164 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Protection of Foreign Born; Bert Alves, Civil Rights Congress;
Muriel Draper, executive vice president, the Congress of American
Women. Were you in attendance, Mr. Green, at the rally held under
the auspices of the Claudia Jones Defense Committee alluded to in
this leaflet?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 11," see appendix, p. 7106.)
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Green, have you ever been identified with
the Freedom of the Press Committee Against Deportations ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a reproduction of an article entitled
"An Attack on Freedom of the Press," under the auspices of the Free-
dom of the Press Committee Against Deportations, regarding depor-
tation hysteria in connection with a number of persons against whom
deportation proceedings have been instituted. I ask you whether or
not you are identified with that organization ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 12a, b," see appendix, pp. 7107-
7109.)
The Chairman. What were the grounds for deportation of those
people ?
Mr. Arens. In each instance we check very carefully. They are
under the security provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
People were charged with being members of the Communist conspiracy.
Tlie Chairman. And after a hearing it was determined that they
were Communists ?
Mr. Arens. Pursuant to the provisions of the Immigration and
Nationality Act they were all given due process.
The Chairman. Do you know how long they were in the United
States?
Mr. Arens. I would be unable at this moment to say, Mr. Chairman.
I lay before you, Mr. Green, a photostatic copy of an article pub-
lished by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
reading as follows :
Defense Committees
On May 2 the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
held a highly successful banquet honoring attorneys defending the rights of non-
citizens and naturalized citizens in San Francisco and vicinity. Rev. Stephen
Fritchman was the principal speaker. * * * The Michigan Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born sponsored a conference to protect the citizenship of
foreign born Americans in Detroit on June 13. * * * A Greater Miami, Fla.,
conference to repeal the Walter-McCarran law and defend its victims was held
on June 16. " * * A Minnesota State conference to repeal the Walter-McCarran
law and defend its victims was held in Minneai>olis on June 20.
Kindly look at that article and t«ll us whether or not those con-
ferences and those organizations alluded to in the article were or-
ganized, created, inspired or controlled by the Communist conspiracy?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Were they organized or controlled by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in turn controlled by the Communist conspiracy ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6165
Mr. Green. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. Arens. Are yon a member of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of a leaflet
respecting a demand for the immediate release on bail of the four
labor leaders held on Ellis Island. They are Ferdinand Smith,
Charles Doyle, Gerhart Eisler, and John Williamson. They are de-
scribed here, one as a labor secretary of the Communist Party; an-
other as a German Communist refugee from Hitler, the other as a
leader and secretary of the National Maritime Union, another as vice
president of the United Chemical Workers CIO.
This demonstration was under the auspices, of the Ferdinand Smith
Defense Committee, Claudia Jones Defense Committee, Alex Bittel-
man Defense Committee, American Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, John Santo Defense Committee, Charles Doyle Defense
Committee and the Civil Eights Congress. I ask you if you can tell
this Committee on Un-American Activities if each of the organizations
alluded to in that leaflet is under the discipline of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born? • -
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously statisd.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 13," see appendix, p. 7110.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a reproduction of an article appearing
in Issue No, 58 of The Lamp, official publication of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, setting forth a number of or-
ganizations engaged in the defense of the foreign born, as it is de-
scribed here. It lists among others, the Finnish-American Freedom
Committee, Freedom of the Press Committee against Deportation, an
American- Yugoslav Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a
Vincent Andrulis Defense Committee, a Northwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. I invite your attention to the article,
and ask you if you have knowledge of the existence of those organi-
zations, and if so, whether or not they were created, inspired and con-
trolled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 14," see appendix, pp. 7111, 7112.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a reproduction of an article
entitled, "Organizational Developments in Fight Against Deporta-
tion," appearing in Issue No. 59 of The Lamp, the official publication
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. It refers
to the scheduling of a conference of Lithuanian-American organiza-
tions in Chicago in March 1950, Will you look at that item and tell
us whether or not you have knowledge of the existence of those organi-
zations and if so, whether or not those (jrgauizations were created and
controlled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
Mr. Arens, I lay before you another reproduction of an article
appearing in Issue No. 61, June-July 1950, of The Lamp, an official
publication of the American Committee for Protection of Fore'gu
Born, setting forth the organizational activities of the Conunittee lor
the Defense of Eulalia Figueiredo, the (\)nnnittee for tlie Defense of
Henry Podolski, the Pete Nelson Defense Committee of Everett,
AVash., the American Yugoslav Conunittee for Protection of Foreign
Born, the Sam Sweet Defense Committee, and others.
85333— 57— pt. 1—3
6166 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
I ask you to look at that article and tell us whether or not you have
knowledge of those organizations, and if so, whether or not those
organizations were created and controlled by the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 15," see appendix, pp. 7112-7114.)
Mr. Aeens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a
letter written on the letterhead of the New York Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born, signed by one Alec Jones, executive secre-
tary. I ask you whether or not you have knowledge of the existence
of that organization, and if so, whether or not it is controlled by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 16," see appendix, p. 7115.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of an article,
entitled, "Organizational Activities," appearing in Issue No. 72 of
The Lamp, in which are set forth three other organizations alluded
to as active in the fight to destroy the immigration system. One is a
New England Conference for Protection of Foreign Born. Another
is Local 8, of the International Ix)ngshoremen's and Warehousemen's
Union, Portland, Oreg., which has created a special trade-union com-
mittee and a third is the New York Trade Union Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
I ask you, please, sir, to look at this document, and tell us whether
or not you are conversant with the existence of the organizations
alluded to, and if so, whether or not they were created and are con-
trolled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
Mr. Green. I want to take exception to the statement that anyone
seeks to destroy the immigration system in this country. In my
opinion no such thing is true. In response to the question, I refuse
to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 17," see appendix, p. 7116.)
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Green, I lay before you another reproduction
of an article appearing in The Lamp, Issue No. 73, which sets forth
the existence and report of organizational activities of several organ-
izations. These include the New England Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, the Hungarian American Defense Committee, and the
Provisional Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Will you please, sir, look at this article and tell us if you have
knowledge of the existence of those organizations, and if so, were they
created and controlled by the American Conmiittee for Protection
of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 18," see appendix, p. 7117.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document en-
titled "Eeport From Washington" dated July 5, 1955. issued by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This report sets forth a statement by one James Glatis, as a person
who had testified or given information to the Department of Justice.
According to this report, James Glatis testified that he had attended
the founding conference of the New England Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born in Boston in 1950 and this report says :
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6167
,nS^^ ^^"l^ ^^ that the New England Committee was not established until May
against t^elcPFl?''''^^ testimony to fit the Justice Department's charge*
Are you aware of the existence of that report from Washington and
of that allusion to the testimony or statements of James Glatis?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 19," see appendix, p. 7118 )
Mr. Arens. This next exhibit, let the record show, is an exhibit
dated July 5, 1955. It alludes to testimony which the exhibit claims i&
raise, given m April 1950.
I again invite your attention, Mr. Green, to Issue No. 61 of The-
L/amp for June- July 1950 which appeared before the testimony of Mr
Giatis. In this issue of The Lamp, on page 2 we see reference to an.
organizational conference of the New England Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. In other words, the exhibit shows on its
face, does it not, that the New England Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born was in existence prior to the testimony of Mr. Glatis
and therefore your attempt to discredit him had no basis.
Kindly look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not you are-
aware of the existence of that organization, and if it is, and has beeni
controlled by the American Committee for Protection of Foreigit
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See "Exhibit No. 15," appendix, pp. 7112-7114.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a reproduction of page 3 of The Lamp,
Pv ^i'-f i^^''^i''^''P^'*^- ''^"'^ ^•'^^^ -^^"^ attention to an article, entitled'
• Yuditch Defense Committee." It states "a committee of represent-
atives of rank and file members of trade unions has been organized:
for the defense of Paul Yuditch * * *." The speakers at the Wani-
zational meeting included Paul Novick, editor of the Morning Frei-
heit, Carol King, general counsel of the American Committee for
foreign Born, and others.
On this page of The Lamp appears another article Avhich refers to^
230 representatives of organizations who participated in a California
conference under the auspices of the California CPFB, desi^nied to-
amend or repeal the Immigration and Nationality Act. '^
A tliird item alludes to a Michigan conference of the CPFB held'
at the Dearborn Ford Local 600 auditorium. I ask you to look at that
document and tell us whether or not you have knowledge of the exist-
ence of those organizations or conferences and if so, whether or not
those organizations or conferences were created, inspired, or^^anized
and controlled by tlie American Committee for Protection of Forei<rn
Born ? *=
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 20," see appendix p 7119 )
Mr. Green. I am sorry, I liave to again take exception to tlie state-
nient made by counsel for the committee seeking to impute some kind
of questionable activity on efforts by Americans to revise or repeal
legislation and laws of the United States Congress.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in activities designed to cause
the revision or repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act ? Are you a mem-
ber of the Communist conspiracy?
6168 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. Will you let me answer the first question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Green. The first question you asked I decline to answer for
reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do j^ou feel that you would be giving information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceding if you should tell
this committee of any efforts in which you may have been engaged
to cause tlie repeal or revision of the Immigration and Nationality
Act?
Mr. Green. It might.
Mr. iVnENs. Then I direct your attention to the exhibit in Avhich
are set forth a lunnber of organizations and I repeat the question, are
those organizations under the control of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
■; .Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the previous reasons.
Mr. Arens. Were they created b}' the American Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green. "VYill you let me answer the first question before you
ask another?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Green. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of page 3,
issue No. 72, April-May 1952, of The Lamp, official publication of the
American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. This page
contains articles referring to the Juditz Defense Committee; the
United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers ; the Ohio Provisional
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born; a New England Confer-
ence for Protection of Foreign Born; the establishment of a special
trade union committee for the defense of John Fougerouse by Local 8
of the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union in
Portland; the New York Trade Union Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born summer program ; also a Midwest Conference to Defend
the Bill of Rights and for the Defense of Foreign Born.
I invite your attention to those various organizations, appearing
on this exhibit, and ask you if you have knowledge of their existence
and if so, were they created and controlled by the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See exhibit No. 17, appendix, p. 7116.)
Mr. Arens. Now, in 1948, did the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born have a national conference dealing with what
it has termed "the rights of foreign born"?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens, I put it to you as a fact, that in that conference there
were participants representating officially the American Slav Con-
gress, the Civil Rights Congress, the Morning Freiheit, the Congress
of American Women, the Chicago Council of Soviet- American Friend-
ship, the Slovak Workers Society, the Nature Friends of America,
the National Lawyers Guild, the International Workers Order, the
Progressive Party, the Armenian Progressive League, the Jewish
Peoples Fraternal Order, the Hungarian Brotherhood, the Finnish
American Mutual Aid Society, the National Council of American-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6169
Soviet Friendship, the American-Russian Fraternal Society, tlie
Chicago Negro Labor Council, the Glos Ludowy, Narodni Glasnik,
American Peace Crusade, the National Guardian, and others.
I ask you to affirm or deny the fact that in December of 1948 all of
those organizations had a conference in Chicago for the purpose of
discussing questions pertaining to the immigration laws?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. The record will show that each of those organizations
has been cited as a Communist-controlled organization.
Mr. Green, I lay before you a reproduction of an article (The Lamp,
issue 59, February-March 1950), the official publication of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born with reference to
citywide councils for Protection of foreign born which have been
established in New York, Cleveland, and Philadelphia. Citywide
councils. I invite your attention to this publication and ask you
whether or not you have knowledge of the existence of such citywide
councils and if so, if they were created and controlled by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Green". I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to an article from (The
Lamp, issue No. 78, June- August 1953, page 2) the official publication
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. It
sets forth defense activities, "Representatives of defense committees
in seven States met in New York over the weekend of June 12th and
developed a program of action for repeal of the Walter-McCarran law
and defense of its victims.''
Allusion is also made in this document to an organization called
the Women's Committee to Free Katharine Hyndman. Still another
reference to an organization, a new one called the American Polish
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in Detroit, and another
committee, Local 37, IL"V\nj Defense Committee.
I invite your attention to that document and ask you if you have
knowledge of the existence of those organizations and if so, whether
or not to your certain knowledge they were created and controlled
by the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 21," see appendix, p. 7120.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to still another document wliich
is a reproduction of an article of The Lamp, the official publication of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign lioi-n, in which is
set forth reference to some more organizations includiii<r an East Bay
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a Chicago Labor Defense
Committee. I invite your attention to these organizations alluded to
in this document aiid ask you whether or not you know of the existence
of those organizations and if so, whether or not they were created and
controlled by the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated. _
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to another document which is
a reproduction (p. 3, The Lamp, issue No. GO, April-May 19.51) of
an official publication of the American Committee for ]i*rotection of
6170 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Foreign Born in which reference is made to the Committee for
Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born. I ask you whether or
not you have knowledge of the existence of that organization and if
so, if it is controlled and created by the American Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 22," see appendix, p. 7121.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document, which is a
reproduction of an article appearing in The Lamp, which sets forth
references to the Committee for the Freedom of Martin Young. Also,
a Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom
under the direction of Mrs. Irving Partridge, an LACPFB Defense
Committee, and Antonia Sentner Defense Committee, St. Louis, Mo.
I ask you to look at that article and tell us whether or not you have
knowledge of the existence of those organizations and if so, whether
or not they were created and controlled by the American Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Aeens. I invite your attention to a reproduction of page 2 of
the New York Beacon, issued by the New York Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, in which reference is made to a number of
organizations and literature available with regard to the Immigra-
tion and Nationality Act. There are six of these organizations. One,
the Yugoslav Committee, another the Greek Committee, another the
Ukrainian Committee, another the Finnish Committee, another the
Eose Nelson Committee, and another the Sons and Daughters Com-
mittee, which has a squib in here urging the sons and daughters to
write their Congressmen for repeal of the Immigration and Na-
tionality Act.
I ask you whether or not you have knowledge of the existence of
those organizations alluded to in the Beacon and if so, whether or
not they are controlled and were created by the American Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 23a-d," see appendix, pp. 7122-
7125.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you, Mr. Green, a photostatic copy of a
pamphlet entitled, "The Deportation Drive Versus the Bill of Rights —
The McCarran Act and the Foreign Born," which is issued by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and ask you
whether or not you were the author of that particular article?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated,
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a booklet entitled "The Walter-Mc-
Carran Law, Police State Terror Against Foreign-Born Americans,"
by Abner Green, and ask you whether or not you are the author of
that booklet?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question whether or not
you are the author of that pamphlet.
Mr. Green. I refuse to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another pamphlet entitled "In the
Shadow of Liberty," and ask you if you are the author of that?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6171
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you feel that if you answered the question it might
tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. It might, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You honestly believe that if you answered the ques-
tion whether or not you are the author of this particular publication
the chairm.an has, it might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. It might waive my rights under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Let me point out something to you in tliis booklet,
whether you wrote it or not. This is a tear jerker, about an immi-
grant, who came here 51 years ago. He thought so little of America
that in 51 years he didn't bother to become a citizen. That is true in
every one of these cases in this booklet. Mr. Arens, have you found
in your research a single case of where this organization has interceded
on behalf of anybody other than aliens who face deportation because
they are Communists?
Mr. Arens. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. Green, what is the National Women's Appeal, or what was the
National Women's Appeal ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. The National Women's Appeal was another nationwide
organization created by the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born in which they undertook to dupe women in support of
the program of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born to emasculate the immigration system ; is that correct ?
Mr. Green. Is what correct ?
Mr. Arens. Was this National Women's Appeal created by the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mf. Green. I decline to answer for previously stated reasons.
Mr. Arens. I show you a check payable to the National Women's
Appeal for $25, signed by one Uta Hagen. On the back we see it is
endorsed by the National Women's Appeal and below that, still
another endorsement, the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. I lay that check before you and ask you if that re-
freshes your recollection with reference to any interlocking financial
arrangements between the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born and the National Women's Appeal ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 24," see appendix, p. 7126.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document, The Deporta-
tion Terror, a Weapon to Gag America, by Abner Green, 5 cents,
published by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, national offices, 23 West 26th Street, New York 10, N. Y. I ask
you whether you are the author of that document.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Do you honestly believe that the answer to that ques-
tion might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. It might tend to ?
Mr. Green. It might.
Mr. Scherer. Then we can draw no other conclusions than that
there were some criminal activities involved in this effort.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another document, entitled "Victims
of the Walter-McCarran Law and How They Are Defended," issued
6172 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in
which is set forth the program of the fourth annual conference to
repeal the Walter-McCarran law and defend its victims (February
27-28, 1954) and number of people who are going to speak on how
they are going to defend the victims of the Walter-McCarran law.
It lists a legal panel, a trade-union panel, a Mexican panel, women
and the family panel, a cultural panel, and other panels. The dele-
gates are to be greeted and heard according to this by a person
identified here by the name of Abner Green, executive secretary of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
I la}^ that before you and ask you whether or not you attended that
conference and whether or not you were the one that did the speaking
to the conference.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Lillian Doran ?
Mr. Green". I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter dated
June 26, 1952, which has been identified in an executive session. It
is from Abner Green, just signed "Abner," and addressed to Lillian
Doran in Los Angeles, with reference to certain activities in defense
of the foreign born and certain condemnations of stool pigeons. I
ask you if you would kindly identify that signature as your signature ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 25," see appendix, p. 7127.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another letter from Abner Green, ex-
ecutive secretary, ACPFB, to one Rose Rosenberg in Los Angeles.
This letter has been identified in executive session before the com-
mittee. It refers to bail for certain persons who were up for deporta-
tion and reference to certain legal proceedings, and I ask you whether
or not you would kindly identify that letter.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 26," see appendix, p. 7127.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another exhibit which I should like to
read. Before doing so I would like to ask you if you know a man by
the name of Bishop Walter A. Mitchell ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. This is a letter dated December 1, 1955, "Dear Rose" —
signed "Abner — Abner Green, executive secretary," on the letterhead
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Deae Kose : Could you please send us a biography of Bishop Mitchell, which
I imagine you must have.
I discussed with Joe Forer preparations for our defense this week (the
Justice Department rested its "case" on Tuesday) and it is important, from
the way Joe puts it, to have Mitchell down for live testimony rather than by
deposition.
Mitchell can testify about the work and activities of the LA committee since
he is an oflScer. He could discuss your program, conference, meeting, banquet.
It Mitchell is to testify in person, we would want to have copies of all com-
munications sent out over his signature, proceedings of conferences he attended,
a resume of meetings at which he spoke. (We would want five copies of each
piece. )
One other special thing Mitchell could do— he can be asked how come he is
honorary chairman of an organization of which the director is Rose Chernin.
(They put in a copy of your conviction from the court record as evidence on
Tuesday.) I am certain that Mitchell would make the kind of speech at that
point that would be necessary in the record.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6173
I lay that before you and ask you to identify it for the committee.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer the question.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 27," see appendix, p. 7128.)
Mr. Arens. Was Bishop Mitchell alluded to in this letter of De-
cember 1, 1955, a person who was a member of the Communist Party
or who was a person who was not a member of the Communist Party,
who was being used by the Communist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. Do you know Bishop Mitchell ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question whether or not
you know the bishop.
(Witness consults with his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I refuse for the reasons previously stated.
The Chauiman. All right.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 12: 20 p. m., Monday, November 12, 1956, the com-
mittee recessed until 2 p. m., the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1956
( Present at commencement of afternoon session : Representatives
Moulder and Scherer.)
TESTIMONY OF ABNER GREEN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, will you kindly resume the stand.
• Mr. Green, I lay before you a document published by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, entitled, "Review of the
Year 1950." I invite your attention specifically to the last page of the
document, respecting income and disbursements of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, the income indicated for the
year 1950 as $54,873.79, and the disbursements $51,621.64. Would you
kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not the itemiza-
tion of expenditures of the American Conmiittee for Protection of
Foreign Born for that year is correct?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 28a-d," see appendix, pp. 7129-
7132.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which is a reproduction of
The Lamp (No. 76, January-February 1953) published by the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. 1 invite your at-
tention to the last inige of that document which sets forth a state-
ment of income and disbursements for the year 1952, indicating a total
income of better than $48,000 and a total expenditure for that year of
approximately $45,000, and I ask you to kindly look at the last page of
this document which I have just laid before you, and tell us whether
or not that is a correct and accurate re])ro(luctiou of the exi)enditures
and income of the Amei-ican Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born for that year.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 29a-d," see appendix, pp. 7133-
7136.)
Mr. Scherer. May I ask counsel a question? Does that report in-
dicate tlie 90ui"ce of that income?
Mr. Arens. No, sir ; it does not.
6174 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER, Witness, how much of that money did you get from
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. ,
Mr. ScHEKER. Do you get any compensation directly or indirectly
from the Communist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you get any compensation either directly or in-
directly from any source across the ocean — that is, European sources?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not that I know of.
Mr. Scherer. Not that you know of? Do you mean by that that
you may get it indirectly from across the waters through the Com-
munist Party ? Is that what you mean by that answer?
Mr. Green. I don't mean that.
Mr. Scherer. What do you mean by that answer?
Mr. Green. Not to my knowledge do I get any funds for myself in
the way of supporting myself, no.
Mr. Moulder. In view of your response to his question, don't you
think you should answer the question which was propounded as to
the source of the funds?
Mr. Green. In response to counsel, sir, I would decline to answer on
the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Green, could you . tell us who is Carl
Reinstein ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In answer to the query posed by Representative Scherer,
may I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of a bank account
agreement and signature arrangement of the Communist Party, United
States of America, on which appears the signature of Carl Reinstein,
on behalf of the Communist Party. I ask you whether or not that
to your knowledge is the signature of Carl Reinstein, and whether or
not he is to your knowledge a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 30," see appendix, p. 7137.)
Mr. FoRER. I would like to object to that, as the chairman said I
could, because that doesn't indicate anything about the American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. That will come in the next exhibit. Counsel, if you will
wait a minute.
I lay before Mr. Green a photosatic copy of a check payable to the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, signed by Carl
Reinstein, with the designation "Communist Party, United States of
America." I ask you whether or not that photostatic copy is a true
and correct reproduction of a check made payable to the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born from Reinstein on behalf
of the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. FoRER. You asked a question?
Mr. Arens. Yes, there is a question outstanding.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 31," see appendix, p. 7138.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, if you please, Mr. Green, to a
letter dated May 7, 1943, of the Civil Rights Congress, with reference
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6175
to the Mimdt bill, H. R. 5352. Attached to this letter is an open letter
to Congress with a number of names of persons who joined according
to the body of the letter, in urging the recipient of the letter to write
to his Congressman to defeat the Mundt bill.
I ask you if you would kindly examine that exhibit and tell us
whether or not you participated by either your signature or your
name in the drive of the Civil Rights Congress against the Mundt
bill.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 32a-c," see appendix, pp. 7139-
7141.)
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Has the Civil Rights Congress to your knowledge
actually registered under the Lobbying Act, do you know ?
Mr. Green. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer. How
could it possibly incriminate him whether he has registered or not.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Green. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. My curiosity is aroused but I cannot understand how
you respond to the question of receipts of overseas money by saying
"not that I know of" and you still decline to answer the question con-
cerning all moneys here in America.
Mr. Forer. I don't think we understand the question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder, The question was asked by Congressman Scherer
Mr. Forer. Did he get any money abroad, and he said not that he
knows of,
Mr. Moulder. He refuses to answer the other question concerning
the moneys in this country.
Mr, Forer. They are different questions.
Mr. Moulder. They definitely are different questions. I cannot
understand how lie tries to defend his organization by saying, "We
received no moneys overseas."
Mr. Forer. He didn't try to defend it. He just tried to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. It appears as though it was a completely un-American
project indirectly. That is what it amounts to,
Mr, Forer, I think you are drawing implications from answers and
refusals to answer that don't belong.
Mr. Scherer. He means he doesn't know whether or not this money
he got from the Communist Party came from Russia.
Mr. Forer. Tliat is not fair for you to say what he means.
Mr. Scherer. I think I can comment. I think that is a reasonable
inference that you can draw from his testimony.
Mr. Forer. I don't think it is, Mr. Scherer. If it is a reasonable
inference, let Mr, Moulder draw his own inference. Don't you say
what he means.
Mr. Moulder. I am not drawing inferences. I was trying to bring
it out on the board and make a clean statement of it. That is the
American way of doing it.
Mr. Arens. This is a letter from tlie American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Bom: "Dear Rose," with the typewritten
6176 COR'IMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
sighature of Abner Green, executive secretaty^ and ask you whether
or not you wrote that letter.
Mr. SciiERER. ■V^^lat is the date of that letter, counsel?
Mr.FoRER. July 30, 1953.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. FoRER. I would like to object to this going into evidence, because
this looks to me like it must be the interception of some private
correspondence.
Mr. Arens. Is this your signature on here, "A-b-n-e-r" ?
Mr. FoRER. Could I have some rulings on these objections?
Mr. Moulder. I don't know about the private correspondence. It
is not confidential because it is private. If it is between husband and
wife or a sort of confession
Mr. FoRER. When he gets private correspondence, it may have been
obtained in an unlegal manner.
Mr. Arens. May I suggest that the sole and exclusive responsibility
of the counsel is to advise the witness
Mr. FoRER. Except Chairman Walter said I could object to the
introduction of exhibits.
Mr. Moulder. Of course, you can object. May I see the document?
(Mr. Arens hands document to chairman.)
Mr. Scherer. If he denies that is his signature
Mr. Forer, He didn't deny it.
Mr. Scherer. If he denies it, I will agree it should not go in the
record. He has taken the fifth amendment. He doesn't deny that
is his signature.
Mr. FoRER. There are laws against intercepting mail and this prima
facie appears to have been acquired in violation of that law.
Mr. Scherer. That is an inference on your part.
Mr. FoRER. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. I don't know how Ave got it, but it was a good thing
we got it.
Mr. FoRER. Good thing. There is nothing to it.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, you expect to be paid for your testimony
here today or receive your witness fee ?
Mr. Green. I was told I would be.
Mr. Arens. As a prerequisite to receiving your witness fee, it is
necessary to sign a voucher of the House of Representatives. I ask
you here and now in the presence of this committee to sign your name
to this document which is the voucher which will be filled out for your
witness fee.
Mr. Green. And I will get the money on the basis of this signature ?
Mr. Arens. You will receive your witness fee.
Mr. Green. Where do I sign it?
Mr. Forer. I will show you, "Payee."
(Witness signs document.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this part of
the voucher which he has just signed for his pay be incorporated in
this record so that signature may be compared with the signatures of
other documents being displayed to the witness.
Mr. Forer. After lie gets his pay on it.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6177
Mr. Moulder. The document referred to by counsel as requested will
be made a part of the record.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 33," see appendix, p. 7142.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you an original document which is dated
January 4, 1955, addressed to "Dear Evelyn,*' signed "Abner," with
the typewritten notation "Abner Green, executive secretary," and ask
you if you will kindly identify that document and identify your
signature.
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 34," see appendix, p. 7143.)
Mr. FoRER. Same objection.
Mr. Arexs. Who was the "Evelyn" whose name appears in this
letter?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I move that the exhibit that counsel for the witness
has objected to be admitted in evidence.
Mr. Moulder. I understand it was a blank voucher.
Mr. Scherer. But he has objected to it, and there is nothing in the
record showing we ar^ overruling his objection.
Mr. Moulder. Therefore, his objection will be overruled.
Mr. Arexs. Is the "Evelyn" Evelyn Abelson, of the American'
Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
Mr. Greex. I decline to answer for i-easons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. A document entitled, "A Union Leader Framed, the
Story of Charles A. Doyle," pul^lished by tlie American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. I show it to you and ask if you
would kindly identify that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 35a-d," see appendix, pp. 7144r-
7147.)
Mr. Greex. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. When you say "the reasons previously stated," in
order to keep the record clear, were they one concise reason or were
they several reasons ?
Mr. Green. They were primai'ily that the committee has no au-
thority to go into this matter, and that tlie question or this attempt
to seciu-e my identification of the document is an invasion of my rights
under the first amendment, and my privilege under the fifth amend-
ment, not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arexs. Thus far on this record we have been directing your
attention to a number of organizations and conferences which, accord-
ing to the exhibits, were written up in the publications of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I invite your atten-
tion, Mr. Green, to a photostatic copy of an article in the Daily
Worker of New York, Monday, February 11, 1952, entitled, "Farm
Union Asks Peace and Parity," in wliicli there was, accoi-ding to the
article, a 2-day meeting of the Farmers Union eastern division, and
one of the speakers is listed here as Abner Green, who is reporting on
his committee's work.
I ask you if you will kindly tell tliis connnittee whetlier or not the-
recitations in there concerning the meeting are true and correct?
Mr. Grekx. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. MoiLDEU. May I liave the record show that the witness merely
glanced at tlie document or the exhibit that you referred to, and im-
mediate! v answered without examining it.
6178 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. I think for the record, too, there was a certain part of
that exhibit which is read and selected out for special attention which
I did see and my response went on the basis of that identification
within the record of special material which was drawn to my atten-
tion. I did not have to read the entire thing in order to make up my
mind how I would respond to the question.
Mr. ScHERER. I don't think that this witness is going to answer any
•questions. He has invoked the fifth amendment to practically every
question asked.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Green, are vou now a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Green. I decline for all of the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that in the pres-
ence of this witness another witness be sworn.
Mr. John Lautner, would you kindly come forward? Would you
raise your hand while the chairman administers the oath to you?
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ? «
Mr. Lautner. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by name, residence,
and occupation?
Mr. Lautner. My name is John Lautner, self-employed. I reside
in Cleveland, Ohio, at the present time.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Lautner. From 1929 up to January 1950.
Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, sir, just a brief thumbnail sketch
of your career in the Communist Party with particular reference to
the posts or activities which you held or in which you engaged.
Mr. Lautner. A few months after joining the Communist Party I
was sent to a national training school of the Communist Party. Upon
graduation from this training school in June 1930, I was sent as dis-
trict secretary of the Hungarian National Bureau of the Communist
Party to Michigan. After functioning there for about 7 or 8 months,
in addition to that, I was appointed to the District Control Commis-
sion of the Communist Party in Michigan.
In May 1931, I was assigned to Canada. I functioned in Canada
for about 11 months. Upon return from Canada, I was assigned to
Cleveland, Ohio, as district secretary of the Hungarian National
Bureau of the Communist Party, and as one of the editors of the Hun-
garian daily Communist paper there. I functioned there till the end
of 1932. I was reassigned to New York.
For a while I functioned there on the district language department
of the Communist Party in New York City. In 1933, in the fall, I
became a section organizer of the Communist Party in New York
City. I functioned m that capacity to April 1936. I was appointed
State secretary or district organizer of the Communist Party in the
State of West Virginia.
COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6179
I functioned in that capacity from April 1936 to the end of 1940.
Beginning with 1941, I was sent to the national training school of
the Communist Party. After graduation I was assigned to the
Nationality Groups Commission of the Communist Party and national
secretary of the Hungarian Bureau of the Communist Party. I
functioned in these capacities until November 1942^
I was drafted into the Army in 1942, in November. I was dis-
charged from the Army in June 1945. I resumed my functions on the
nationality groups commission of the Communist Party and national
secretary of the Hungarian bureau.
In 1946, I was reassigned to organize the Communist Party mem-
bership in the building trades in New York City. I functioned in
that capacity until about March 1947. For about 2 months I was
sent down to the New York waterfront as a party organizer.
Mr. ScHERER. When you say you were sent, who sent you ?
Mr. Lautner. The Communist Party, I functioned on the water-
front for a number of months and then was appointed chairman of
the New York State Keview Commission of the Communist Party.
I fmictioned in that capacity until the I7th of January 1950. In
addition to being head of the New York State Keview Commission,
also I was appointed in September 1948 a member of the National
Review Commission of the Coimnunist Party. These were the func-
tions that I held.
In addition to that, I attended national committee meetings or
central committee meetings of the Communist Party in the years
1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942, and attended the national
conventions of the Communist Party in 1936, 1938, two conventions in
1940, in 1942, 1945, and 1948.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, we expect to examine you further with
reference to certain factual material, but for the present I should like
to ask you if, during the course of your career in the Communist Party,
you knew a person by the name of Abner Green.
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in this hearing room today ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point out to the committee that per-
son whom you knew in the Communist Party as Abner Green.
Mr. Lautner. He is sitting at the table right here.
Mr. Arens. Is he the man who has just been testifying?
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point him out to the committee ?
Mr. Lautner. He is sitting at the table.
TESTIMONY OF ABNER GREEN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, you have just heard Mr. Lautner testify
under oath that while he was a member of the Communist Party he
knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Lautner lying or was he telling
the truth?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Mr. Lautner ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. May I interrupt just a minute. Counsel, and Mr.
Chairman? You heard Archibald Roosevelt testify this riiorning.
6180' COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Did Mr. Roosevelt tell the truth insofar as his testimony pertained to
you?
Mr. Green. I am sorry. I am waiting to get the record of the hear-
ings. I could not very well hear the things Mr. Koosevelt was speak-
ing of. The things that I did hear, I don't think he knew what he was
talking about.
Mr. ScHERER. Was he telling the truth or was he telling an untruth
as far as the things that you heard are concerned ?
Mr. Green. He was telling a very fanciful fantastic story which
this committee decided to listen to. I had nothing to do with that,
sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you hear any of his testimony insofar as it con-
cerned you ?
Mr. Green. I heard my name mentioned.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear his testimony with reference to you?
Mr. Greien. No.
Mr. Scherer. What pai-t of his testimony that referred to you did
you hear ?
Mr. Green- Principally the attempt to impress the committee with
some idea that there are people in the country who are seeking to
destroy the immigration laws of the United States.
Mr. Scherer. AVlien he referred to you as a Communist, was he
telling the truth or not ?
Mr. Green. I am sorry, I didn't hear him refer to me as a Com-
munist.
Mr. Scherer. If I tell you that he referred to you as a Communist,
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Green. I would decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. In what respect did Colonel Roosevelt not tell the
truth ?
Mr. Green. I didn't say he didn't tell the truth.
Mr. Scherer. You said it was fanciful. I understand fanciful to
mean not true. It is in the realm of fancy.
Mr. Green. Not necessarily a false statement in the sense as far as
he was concerned. I didn't say he deliberately lied to this committee.
I didn't accuse him of that.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't hear your answer.
Mr. Green. I didn't say Mr. Roosevelt sat here and deliberately lied
to this committee. I just believed he was incorrect.
Mr. Scherer. What part of his testimony that you heard was in-
cori'ect ?
Mr. Green. The attempt to impress the committee with some idea
that there are people seeking to destroy the immigi-ation laws of the
United States.
Mr. Scherer. You mean that there are no such people ?
Mr. Green. To the best of my knowledge there are not any such
people.
Mr. Scherer. You mean the Communist Party is not interested in
destroying at least part of our immigration law ?
Mr. Green. To the best of my knowledge, I would say "No."
Mr. Scherer. How do you know ?
Mr. Green. I would refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6181
• Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, so there Avould be no question in this
record, I would like to pose a question to Mr- Lautner, and suggest
that he be temporarily excused, and be recalled later on.
Mr. Lautner, do you here and now under oath identify the person
seated across from you there, Mr. Abner Green, as a person wlio, to
your certain knowledge was a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Lx\UTNER. Yes; he was a member of the Communist Party up
until the time I left the Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. When was that '(
Mr. Lautner. On the 17th of January 1950.
Mr. Scherer. After the Korean conflict, did you get out of the
Communist Party ? Witness, I am talking to you.
(Witness Green consults with his counsel'.)
Mr. Green. That happens to be in the nature of a rather loaded
question.
Mr. Scherer. Answer the loaded question, if you call it a loaded
question.
(Witness Green consults his counsel.)
Mr, Green. I refuse to answer the question for the reason that it
is loaded, and also for the reasons stated before.
Mr. Scherer. Did you remain in the Communist Party after the
desanctification of Stalin?
Mr, Green, I refuse to answer that question
Mr. Scherer. Did you remain in the Communist Party-
Mr. Green, Mr. Congressman, would you mind if I answer the
question. Whatever it is, I will state the answer for the record.
Mr. Scherer, You will state the fifth amendment?
Mr, Green, I am sorry if that happens to be the answer I will give,
I would refuse to answer the last question on the ground it is loaded
and also for the reasons stated previously.
Mr. Scherer. Did you stay in the Communist Party after the re-
cent atrocities performed by the Russians ?
Mr. Green. I refuse on the ground stated previously,
Mr, Scherer. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Mr. Green, I refuse to answer on the gi^ounds stated previously.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you a document entitled "Proposed Pro-
gram of Action of the 20t]i Anniversary National Conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, December 8
and 9, 1951." This proposed program of action calls for the estab-
lishment of a national committee for the protection of West Indian
Americans. It calls for the establisliment of a national committee for
protection of Mexican Americans, It calls for a campaign to repeal
the Smith and McCarran laws, and it calls for a cam])aign to visit
Congressmen at home during the holiday season and it calls for the
establishment of national trade union advisory committee.
Kindly look at that document and tell us wliether or not that docu-
ment is a true and correct reproduction of the program adopted by
the conference lield in Chicago of tlie American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Boiti.
Mr. Green, I decline to answer for all the reasons previously stated.
(Document marked "Exliibit III,"' see appendix, pp, 8803-8316.)
Mr, Mour.DER. May we ask you this question. Were you there at
the time referred to by counsel ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 4
6182 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Did the American Committee for Protection of For-
eign Bom at that conference on December 8 and 9, 1951, decide to
establish these various committees and organizations, and to promote
the solicitation of Congressmen alluded to in that document?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer for all the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a document, "Midwest
Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend the
Rights of Foreign Born. It is a letter addressed to "Dear Friend,"
signed Dr. Anton J. Carlson, with reference to certain activities of
this Midwest Conference, and ask you if you would kindly look at that
document and tell us whether or not you can identify that document ?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a magazine entitled,
"The March of Labor, Special Issue, Repeal the McCarran-Walter
Act, 40 Million Americans Threatened."
Mr. ScHERER. Before you go any further, March of Labor has been
identified by this committee as Communist ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. I ask you to kindly look at that special issue of
March of Labor, and tell the committee what part, if any, you had
in the preparation of that magazine.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 36a-c," see appendix, pp. 7148-
7150.)
Mr. ScHERER. Did we issue a report on the March of Labor?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
I lay before you still another document, signed by Abner Green,
dated June 25, 1954, to area defense committees from the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, calling upon the area
defense committees of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born to take certain action. I would ask you if you would
kindly identify that document ?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, I lay before you a photostatic copy of a
letter of the Citizens Emergency Defense Conference in New York
City, addressed to "Dear Friend," in which there appears a call for
funds to defend the 13 New York Smith Act defendants, and for other
action with reference to the Smith Act. On the letterhead appears
the name of a person under the executive committee, identified here as
Abner Green, and I ask you if you would kindly identify that letter
for us ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 37," see appendix, p. 7151.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you another document, a photostatic copy
of a letter directed to the President of the United States, signed by a
substantial number of people, with reference to the activities of the
Department of Justice in ordering deported certain people under the
provisions of the immigration laws, and ask you if you would kindly
identify that document?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 38a, b," see appendix, pp. 7152,
7153.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6183
Mr. Arens. Are you a member, or have you been identified with
the organization recently created called the Conference for Legisla-
tion in the National Interest?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask you to direct the witness to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Mouxj)ER. The witness is so directed.
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, do you in good faith believe that the answer
to the last question of counsel with reference to membership in this
last organization would incriminate you?
Mr. Green. Yes, sir ; it might.
Mr. Scherer. Wliat is the name of that organization ?
Mr. Arens. Conference for Legislation in the National Interest.
Mr. Forer. You issued a subpena on it returnable today to the
secretary of that organization.
Mr. Scherer. We may have done that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green, kindly tell us if you participated in the
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest. I lay before
you now an original document of some of the literature of that organi-
zation in which they call for the repeal of the Smitli Act, repeal
of the Subversive Activities Control Act, repeal of the Communist
Control Act, and repeal of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Kindly look at this material which has been identified in our execu-
tive sassion record, and tell this committee whether or not you are
aware of the activities, and participated in the activities of this con-
ference.
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is the Conference for Legislation in the National In-
terest to your certain knowledge an organization created by the Com-
munist Party?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I have no knowledge as to whether it was so created.
Mr. Scherer. Have any Communists participated in the creation
of that organization?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you participated in the organization of that con-
ference ?
Mr. Green. I decline on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is it controlled by the Communist Party?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Arens. Have you particpated in the work of that organization ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Did you prepare the document entitled "The Walter-
McCarran Law Must Be Repealed," which was circulated by the Con-
ference for Legislation in the National Interest ?
Mr. Green. I have already seen it. I decline to answer on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
5184 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. Is that committee engaged in any illegal activity that
you know of?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not that I know of.
Mr. ScHERER. How could your answering then with reference to
membership or activities in connection with that committee possibly
incriminate you ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness.
Mr. Scherer. I don't believe counsel at the beginning of your testi-
mony this morning asked when and where you were born.
Mr. Green. I was born in New York City on April 15, 1913.
Mr. Scherer. Have you lived in New York City all your life ?
Mr. Green. Yes; just about. I think I was absent possibly some
months in early 1940 when I was here in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Scherer. What name were you born under ?
Mr. Green. Under the name of Abraham Greenberg.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you live in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Green. I don't recall now, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever traveled abroad ?
Mr. Green. No, sir. I was in Canada on one occasion.
Mr. Scherer. Did you live with John Morasaka ?
Mr. Green. I rented a room from a John Morasaka when I was
here in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Scherer. Was he a member of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know whether he was a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer, on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't ask you whether he was or was not. Do you
have knowledge of the fact ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask you this question? Do you have any
knowledge or information concerning any organized effort or per-
sonal effort on the part of any person which you would consider to
be subversive or un-American or disloyal, or any concentrated effort
personally or by organizations to overthrow our present form of gov-
ernment by force and violence ?
Mr. Green. No, sir ; I don't know of any.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member now of an organization which is
dedicated to the overthrow of the Government of the United States
by force and violence ?
Mr. Green. Not to my opinion, sir.
Ml-. Arens. Is tlie Communist Party dedicated to the overthrow of
the Government by force and violence?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Green. Not that I know of; no.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions.
Mr. Scherer. What was that last question to which he answered
"Not that he knows of"?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6185
Mr. FoRER. That was not the hist question. That was tlie last
tinswer.
Mr. ScHERER. That is what I meant, not that he knows of. What
was the question ? Would you repeat that ?
Mr. Arens. The question was, "Is the Communist Party dedicated
to the overthrow of the Government by force and violence?"
Mr. Scherer. And his answer was "Not that he knows of.'"
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I have nothing further.
Mr. Moulder. I will ask this : May we change the question to say, in
your opinion, is the Communist Party dedicated to the proposition of
changing our form of government to the present form of government
•existing in the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Green. In my opinion, I would say "No," that is not so.
Mr. Arens. One parting question. Are you a Marxist ?
Mr. FoRER. What kind of question is that ?
Mr. Green. I decline to answer on the ground previously stated.
Mr. FoRER. How do you know what that means ?
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You have made your claim
for witness fees.
( Witness excused . )
Mr. Arens. The next witness is Harriet Barron. Please remain
standing while the chairman administers an oath.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Barron. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HARRIET BARRON, ACCOMPANIED BY
JOSEPH FORER, COUNSEL
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Barron. My name is Harriet Barron. I live at 18 West 30th
Street, New York City. As to my occupation, I decline to answer on
the grounds that this inquiry violates the first amendment and also on
the basis of my privilege under the fifth amendment not to be a witness
against myself.
Mr. Moulder. As to your occupation ?
Mrs. Barron. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present
occupation?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis just stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
appearing in the New York Times of May 15, 1919, in which appears
an article respecting a drive against the North Atlantic Pact and the
Wall Street program of war, which, according to the article, was
addressed by a person by the name of Harriet Barron, identified here
as of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I ask
you kindly to look at that article and ask you whether or not you are
the person so identified?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis just stated.
6186 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Moulder. That is the person referred to in the document just
mentioned is the way the question was directed ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. She declines to answer.
Mrs. Barron. For the reason I previously stated. Would you like
it repeated ?
Mr. Moulder. I wish you would, because it is not clear.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the ground that this inquiry
violates the first amendment and also on the basis of my privilege under
the fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs. ?
Mrs. Barron. Mrs.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Barron, have you been active in the course of your
life in public affairs ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis just stated.
Mr. Arens. Have all of your activities in public affairs been of such
a nature that if you would tell this committee about them, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a crim-
inal proceeding?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Arens. Are there any activities in which you have been engaged
in your life of a public nature that you can tell this committee about
without supplying information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that on the basis stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which is a reproduction of
an organizational report which has been identified in executive session
before our committee. Harriet Barron is shown as administrative
secretary of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
making a report to the Chicago Conference of Deportee Defense Com-
mittees, June 9 and 10, 1951. I ask if you are the Harriet Barron
alluded to in this report, and if this report is a true and correct presen-
tation of the report submitted by Harriet Barron at that conference?
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer on the same basis I
have stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 39 a-c," see appendix, pp. 7154-
7156.)
Mr. Arens. I put it to you now, ma'auT, as a fact and ask you to
affirm or deny the fact that you were the administrative secretary at
the time of the Chicago conference under the auspices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Boni.
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
same basis.
Mr. Moulder. May I say the witness should be directed to answer
the question for the reason that you come on the witness stand and
immediately decline to answer, claiming the privilege of the fifth
amendment without first taking into consideration that the committee
is trying to investigate the subject. You refuse to answer any ques-
tions. I can't understand your attitude. Is it because of your com-
plete contempt of the committee and its purposes that you start out
by refusing to answer any question, or is it because you feel it truly
would incriminate you to answer questions ?
Mrs. Barron. I feel it would incriminate me to answer questions.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6187
Mr. Arens. Where were you born, Mrs. Barron?
Mrs. Barron. New York City.
Mr. Arens. And kindly give us a vrord of your personal education.
Where did you go to school ?
Mrs. Barron. It is a long time ago.
Mr. Arens. Just the highlights of your education. Did you go to
high school in New York City?
Mrs. Barron. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you go to college some place?
Mrs. Barron. No; I did not, except for evening courses at City
(yollege of the City of New York.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education ?
Mrs. Barron. When?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Barron. I am old. I forget dates.
Mr. Arens. I don't want this record to reflect in any case we have
an aged person here. I would have to take issue with you on the basis
of your appearance.
Mrs. Barron. Thank you, sir. I guess I must have graduated from
high school in 1918.
Mr. Arens. How did you receive your subpena which orders your
appearance before this committee ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer for the reason I stated above.
Mr. Arens. Your subpena was transmitted to you by Alec Jones,
secretary of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ; is that not correct ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated before.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Alec Jones ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated before.
Mr. Arens. What was your first employment after you completed
your formal education?
Mrs. Barron. I am sorry; 1918 is a long time ago, and I haven't
reviewed the history of my life for a long time.
Mr. Arens. Let us try it another way. How long have you had
your present post? How long have you been engaged in your present
office or position?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, she be ordered
to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer, not in the spirit
of threatening you, but to advise you of the danger you might be
taking in not responding to the question in that you might be cited
for contempt. It is our duty to advise you of that possibility.
Mrs. Barron. I understand that, sir, but I am afraid I shall have
to decline on the basis I previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Wliat post did you occupy immediately prior to the
post or position which you now have ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I don't remember these things. I haven't made a
survey. I haven't written my autobiography yet.
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever employed by the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. No.
G188 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScuERER. I asked you whether or not you were ever employed
by the Communist Party and was your answer "No" ?
Mrs. Barron. That is right.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated previously.
Mr. ScHERER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis stated previously.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green, the gentleman who pre-
ceded you on the witness stand ?
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
same basis.
Mr. Arens. Do you know John Lautner?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that on the basis previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly resume the witness
stand for just a moment?
TESTIMONY OP JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, during the course of your experience in
the Communist Party concerning which you have given the com-
mittee earlier today a brief outline, did you know a person as a
Communist by the name of Harriet Barron ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in the hearing room today ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point her out to the committee ?
Mr. Lautner. She is sitting right alongside of me.
Mr. Moulder. She is not presently on the witness stand ?
Mr. Lautner. She is not presently on the witness stand.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify the lady seated on your
right as a person wlio to your certain knowledge was a member of the
Conununist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HARRIET BARRON— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Barron, would you kindly look at the gentleman
to your left and tell this committee was he lying or telling the truth
when he just now identified you as a Communist?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that question on the basis I have
indicated previously.
Mr. Moulder. May I interrogate the witness who has identified her
as a Comnumist? What is the basis and your reasons for saying she
was a member of the (communist Party ?
TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Lautner. Transaction of party business with her.
Mr. Moulder. You should be more specific. Tell us where, when,
and so on.
Mr. Lautner. For example, the last time I recall I think it was
in 1949, Harriet I^arron came to my oifice at Communist Party head-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6189
quarters at 35 East 12th Street, on the fifth fioor. She brought a
message.
Mr, Moulder. That is tlie [xn-soii you i-eferred to here on the
witness stand ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. She brought a message from one Sam Carr, who
was at that time detained at Ellis Island. Sam Carr was involved in
the esjoionage in Canada. He Avas executive secretary of the Canadian
Communist Party. The message was to get in touch v.ith Norman
Shrank, who was the executive secretary of the Conununist Party in
Brooklyn, that Norman Shrank's either nephew or brother — I don't
know at the moment — should get rid of some kind of a package. I did
convey that message to Norman Shrank and also to Betty Gannett,
who at that time was the executive secretary of the — assistant execu-
tive secretary of the Communist Party of the United States.
Mr. Moulder. This Avitness brought this message to you 'i
Mr. Lautner. Yes, to convey it to the executive secretary out in
Brooklyn ; that is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Did you ever luive any otlier contact with her in
connection with the Communist Party activities ?
Mr. Lautner. I met her at Conununist Party meetings from time
to time, conventions, conferences, and also I was called on to the offices
of the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, on a number of
occasions, dealing with problems pertaining to party members who
were under deportation proceedings or having difficulties with the
I. and N. S., with the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. Moulder. Where were these meetings ?
Mr. Lautner. Once or twice I went down on 2()th Street at the
headquarters of the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Moulder. Where was that ?
Mr. Lautner. On 26th Street, near Broadway. It is right oti'
Broadway on the north side of 2()th Street. At that time knowri as
the Fredcly Field Building.
Mr. Moulder. And you saAv her thei-e at those meetings?
Mr. Lautner. Tliese meetings were of the nature in.volving party
members who had difficulties with the Immigration and Natuializa-
tion Service.
Mr. Moulder. And she Avas j^articijiating?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Moltlder. As a Communist Party niembei- ?
Mr. Lautner. She Avas participating in her capacity as a function-
ary of the Protection of Foreign I^orn, in the oi-ganixation. As a
party member, she Avas also r)artici])atina in national conventions.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HARRIET BARRON— Resumed
Mr. Mouu)ER. May I ask her this question i You have heard his
testimony specifically concerning you. Do you Avish to deny or alfirm
any part of his testimony? We have often heard here the Avitnesses
don't liaA'e an opportunity to be confronted by a Avitness. I have never
observed any more clear illustration of a Avitness being confronted by a
witness than in this case. You are given the o])|)()rtunity to deny or
affirm any ])art of his testimony if you Avish to do so. "What do you
say about it?
(Witness consulted lier counsel. )
6190 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Barron. I appreciate the opportunity given to me, but I wish
to decline on the basis previously stated to make any further statement
in regard to this witness' testimony.
Mr. ScHERER. Was there anything the witness said about you in
the last part of his testimony that was untrue ?
Mr. FoRER. She answered that already.
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking her again, Mr. Counsel.
(Witness consulted her counsel. )
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Barron, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the
Daily Worker, New York, of June 17, 1951, in which appears a photo-
graph and an article under the photograph, pictured here at the all-
nations' salute honoring Ferdinand Smith and Midwest victims of
McCarran-Walter law deportation hysteria. A person identified here
is Mrs. Harriet Barron. I ask you to look at that photograph and
article, and ask if you are the Harriet Barron alluded to in the article?
Mrs. Barron. I am sorry. I decline to answer.
Mr. Moulder. Mr, Counsel, so many times this committee has been
criticized in that witnesses are not given an opportunity to be con-
fronted by a witness or they are not given an opportunity to inter-
rogate their accuser. A witness has just appeared. Do you wish to
ask him any questions or to interrogate him, through the advice of
your counsel or by yourself, to ask him any questions? I mean the
witness, Mr. John Lautner.
Mrs. Barron. I would prefer not to talk to that man.
Mr. Arens. Now, were you a participant in the all-nations' salute
to Ferdinand Smith and Midwest victims of the McCarran law ?
Mrs. Barron. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
same basis as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you an exhibit which is a photostatic copy
of an article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker of New York,
October 23, 1951, page 5, referring to Harriet Barron, national admin-
istrative secretary of American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, as one of the principal speakers at a foreign-born conference
held in Cleveland, Ohio.
Kindly look at that article and tell us if you are the individual
alluded to there and if you did participate in that conference.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 40," see appendix, p. 7157.)
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another exhibit with reference
to a conference held at Ford Local 600 Auditorium in Detroit, Mich.,
under the auspices of the Michigan Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, in which the delegates and participants are listed, includ-
ing one Harriet Barron, and ask you to look at that and see if that
refreshes your recollection and tell this committee whether or not you
participated in that conference.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 41," see appendix, pp. 7157, 7158.)
Mr. Arens. I observe here that the cosponsor of this organization
is a group called the National Women's Appeal for the Rights of
Foreign Born Americans. Are you conversant with the existence of
that organization ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer for the same reason I stated
previously.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6191
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the National Women's Appeal?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer for the same reason I stated
previously.
Mr. Arens. Is the National Women's Appeal a Communist-con-
trolled organization?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a summary proceeding of the National
Conference of Deportee Defense Committees which was participated
in by representatives of a number of committees. At the bottom of
this proceeding appears the following :
Harriet Barron reported on the activity of the National Women's Appeal for
the Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
I ask you if you participated in that conference and represented
the National Women's Appeal?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 42," see appendix, pp. 7158-7160.)
Mr. Arens. Is this document which I have just laid before you an
official publication of the conference ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter signed
by Harriet Barron, administrative secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, addressed to Mr. J, N. Smith,
Odd Fellows Hall Association, 1849 Ninth Street NW., Washington,
D. C, in which request is made for use of the hall for January 8, 1955,
and ask you if you are the Harriet Barron who offered that signature?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 43," see appendix, p. 7161.)
Mr. Arens. Did you in 1955 solicit the use of a hall in Washington,
D. C, the Odd Fellows Hall, for the use of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born for a rally ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you three letters, each signed "Harriet,"
and all addressed, "Dear Evelyn," the first one dated June 22, 1954,
the second March 31, 1954, the third dated April 13, 1954, with refer-
ence to certain activities of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Bom and ask if you will kindly identify those letters for us.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 44, 45, 46," see appendix, p.
7162.)
Mr. Arens. In this one letter I observe the statement, "Dear Evelyn.
Steve was here yesterday." Wlio was Steve ? Was that Steve Nelson ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in lobbying activities ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. What do you mean by that? Did I personally lobby ?
Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in activities designed to influence
legislative action ?
Mr. Moulder. Organized activities he is referring to. Every in-
dividual might try to influence legislation.
Mr. FoRER. You mean by direct visits ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
6192 coM]vnj]sriST political subversion
Mr. INIoxiLDER. The question is direct, Were you a member of any
orffanization?
Mrs. Barrox. Was I a member of any organization that engaged
in lobbying activities ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered or have you ever been registered
under the Lobbying Act ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. No.
Mr. Arens. When were you last in Washington, D. C. ?
Mrs. Barron. I can't remember now. I don't remember the exact
date I was here last.
Mr. Arens. When were you served with your subpena, do you re-
call, about when ?
Mrs. Barron. You mean what day ?
Mr. Arens. Approximately when. We have had it here in the
record, but it is not handy at the moment. It has been some few
weeks ago ; has it not ?
Mrs. Barron. It was on Thursday, the previous Thursday, not last
Thursday. The previous Thursday.
Mr. Arens. And where were you when you received your subpena ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on
Mr. Arens. In what State were you ?
Mrs. Barron. In what state was I ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Barron. You mean was I upset about it ?
Mr. Arens. No. I mean what State of the Union were you in ?
Mrs. Barron. I was in New York State.
Mr. Arens. Since you received your subpena where have you been ;
in what States ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I was in St, Louis, Denver, Salt Lake City, and Los
Angeles.
Mr. Arens. That has been just a week ago Thursday.
Mrs. Barron. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Did you engage in meetings in these various cities
which you just cited to the committee ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Moul-der. It occurs to me that you have waived your j)rivilege,
if any, by saying that you were in St. Louis, Salt Lake City, and
wherever you may have been, Denver and Los Angeles.
Mr. Forer. It just isn't so.
Mr. Moulder. By opening it up. You say you Avere there. What
pur])ose were you in those cities for? Were you visiting?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Was it a pleasure trip ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. AVho paid your expenses '.
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. The fact is you Avere setting up Communist conferences
throughout the country in pursuit of the work of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; is that not true?
(Witness consulted lier counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6193
Mrs. Barron. It is not true.
Mr. Arens. Were you engaged in work on behalf of the American
(Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Barron. That I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer inasmuch as you
denied the other question. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
You must respond and leave this thing cleanly on the board or else
deny it or claim the privilege, one or the other.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in your career toward causing the
immigration system to be weakened ?
Mrs. Barron. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Arens. Have you taken any action designed to affect the course
of legislation pertaining to inmiigration ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. I am curious to ask you this : Were your visits to the
cities that you mentioned a moment ago the result of a subpena which
was served upon you ^
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. It had nothing to do with the subpena.
Mr. Moulder. That question was submitted to you by counsel fol-
lowing the question about subpena.
Mrs. Barron. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Moulder. He asked you a question about your subpena, and
then asked you the question where you had been since you were served
with the subpena. I wondered whether or not your ti'ips to the cities
you have mentioned was the result of the subpena that was served upon
you.
Mr. FoRER. She answered that. She said, "No."
Mr. Arens. Since you were served with your subpena before this
committee, you took this trip to the west coast.
(Witness consulted counsel.)
Mrs. Barron. I had my plans before it.
Mr. Arens. And you communicated with this committee tliat you
planned on making this trip and therefore had to have some kind of
adjustment in your schedule of appearance before this committee; is
that correct?
Mrs. Barron. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Was this trip that you took to the west coast in the
course of the work in which you are engaged for your livelihood ?
Mrs. Barron. I decline to answer that on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfidly suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to make anj^ explanation or make any
statement concerning your occupation or livelihood referred to by
counsel ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Mrs. Bari{on. I would like to ask a question. Is it wrong for peo-
ple to tight against unjust legislation?
Mr. ScHERER. No; but the Congi-ess has a right to know whether
that fight is led by a foreign power through the Communist Party.
That is what we are trying to find out. You could tell us about that.
Mr. Ari<:ns. Tell this comndttee what legislation you have fought
against.
6194 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that on the basis stated previously,
Mr. ScHERER. Congress has a right to know whether a foreign power
is instigating legislation which you are supporting and whether you
are getting other people in this country to support it without them
knowing the fact that the Communist Party is behind the effort. That
is what we want to know. You have a perfect right, every American
has a perfect right, to lobby the Congress. We also have the right
to know whether that legislation is being proposed by a foreign
government with whom we are engaged in a cold war. That is what
you could tell us. That is what we want to know. We want to know
the source of this agitation.
Mrs. Barron. I don't know anything about that.
Mr. ScHERER. You said you don't know anything about it?
Mr. FoRER. She couldn't tell you. That is what she said. That is
what she said.
Mrs. Barron. I don't know anything about any foreign power en-
gaged in
Mr. ScHERER. The Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom gets
money from the Communist Party, does it not ?
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. ScHERER. I submit she must answer that in view of her answer
and I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mrs. Barron. I am sorry I must refuse.
Mr. Scherer. You get your salary from the Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that.
Mr, Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that yon direct the witness to
answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mrs. Barron. I refuse to answer that as previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. This member of the committee feels you are in con-
tempt of this committee because you said in response to my question
that what I said was not true.
Mr. Forer. That does not put her in contempt of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. That does not put her in contempt, but a refusal to
answer these questions puts her in contempt of the committee in my
opinion.
Mr. Forer. No, you are wrong; I am sorry.
Mr, Moulder. The statements made by Congressman Scherer are
not made in the spirit of a threat. I wish you to know that my
statement made a moment ago is not. So many times this committee
has been criticized in that witnesses are not given the opportunity to
defend themselves or to be confronted by an accuser, which you have
been, by a witness who sat on the witness stand right beside you, under
oath, and made certain accusations concerning you and your activities
in the Communist Party, and other activities, and we tried to offer you
the opportunity to interrogate or to cross-examine this witness, and
you said you chose not to do so. Then, at the close of your testimony,
I asked you if you have any statement to make yourself as an explan-
ation of your claiming the fifth amendment which you clearly have
under our form of government. As I understand you have nothing
more to say.
Mrs. Barron. That is right.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6195
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. Call your next witness.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, may we have a recess for a few min-
utes?
Mr. Moulder. Yes. The committee will stand in recess for a few.
minutes.
(Short recess.)
(Present at reconvening after recess, Kepresentatives Moulder and
Scherer.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Albert Colloms, please come forward and remain
standing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Colloms. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALBEKT L. COLLOMS, ACCOMPANIED BY JOSEPH
PORER, COUNSEL
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Colloms. Albert L. Colloms, 46 West 95th Street, New York
City, an attorney.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Colloms. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. FoRER. Yes ; Joseph Forer, 711 14th Street NW., Washington,
D. C.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Colloms, I lay before you a letter dated February
25, 1956, and a press release entitled "Legislative Conference To
Spur Congressional Action," which sets forth the position of the
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest, and on which
is set forth the name of Angus Cameron as chairman, and secretary
Albert L. Colloms. I ask you if you are the secretary for the Con-
ference for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. Colloms. Yes, I am.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 47a, b, and 48," see appendix,
pp. 7163-7165.)
Mr. Arens. As secretary, do you have custody and control of the
minutes and records of the organization ?
Mr. Colloms. If there were any I would have control of them.
Mr. Arens. Are there such records ?
Mr. Colloms. There are no minutes of the organization which was
subpenaed. Tliere have never been any minutes.
Mr. Arens. The subpena which was served upon you is a subpena
duces tecum demanding you to produce excerpts of all minutes of the
meetings of this organization. Are there any such records ?
Mr, Colloms. There was one meeting of the conference. There
were no minutes taken of that meeting to the best of my knowledge,
and I never saw^ them.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Angus Cameron ?
(Witness consulted with his counsel.)
6196 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, I know him.
Mr. Arens. Is he chairman of the Conference for Legislation in the
National Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, he is.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Prof . Ephraim Cross?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I know his name.
Mr. Arens. What is his identification, if any, with the Conference
for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. Coi>LOMS. May I see that document, please ?
Mr. Arens. Yes [handing].
Mr. CoLLOMS. I take it he was a sponsor.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been secretary of the conference!
Mr. CoLLOMS. Since about January 20, 1 would say.
Mr. Arens. Are you the only secretary the conference has ever had ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I am not sure if there was one prior to me.
Mr. Arens. Who is Rose Russell ?
Mr. CoLLOMS, Apparently from that document she was a sponsor,
too.
Mr. Arens. If you are secretary, wouldn't you know if she is or not?
Mr, CoLLOMS. That document was issued before I was secretary, I
believe. I received one of those and that is how I became interested
' in the conference.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Dr. W. E. B. DuBois?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Very well ; that is a very famous name in American
history.
Mr. Arens. Do you know his connection with the conference?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I believe he was also a sponsor.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Angus Cameron is a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I do not know.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Rose Russell is a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS, I do not know.
Mr. Arens. Do you receive compensation as secretary of the Con-
ference for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I do not.
Mr. Arens. How many members are there of the Conference for
Legislation in the National Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Not enough. As a matter of fact, there are no mem-
bers. There are just some people who are called continuation com-
mittee people, and I think sponsors. That is all.
Mr. Arens. What is the budget of the Conference for Legislation
in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. In the red.
Mr. Arens. AVliat is its income?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Whatever we can collect if we have another confer-
ence.
Mr. Arens. lYhat was its income in the last conference?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Somewhere between $400 and $700.
Mr. Arens. Was it all expended ?
Mr. CoLi.oMS. Except for about $20 which is now in the bank, and
$100 which was spent on an ad in the National Guardian trying to
get some more members, which we didn't get.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6197
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a press release,
dated April 1, 1956, issued by the Conference for Legislation in the
National Interest, which sets forth information as to certain sessions
of the conference. Otto Nathan was to lead a discussion, and Victor
Kabinowitz was to lead a discussion, Angus Cameron and others were
to participate. I ask if you were also a participant in that particular
conference of the Conference for Legislation in the National Interest.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. If that was the conference of April 7, which I take it
it is, it is not outlined in that document, I was present at that con-
ference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 49," see appendix, p. 7166.)
Mr. Arens. Who solicited your membership in the conference ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I got one of those documents which you showed me,
having the four sponsors' names on it, or whatever they are called in
that letter, and 1 appeared at a meeting in New York where those
sponsors and some other people were present. I don't remember who
they were, and there was general discussion about Congress not having
done anything about legislation for a while, and that it might be
important to get some legislation passed which would be in the public
interest, such as housing, increased appropriations for social security,
social-security extension, coverage extension in social security, agri-
cultural measures, repeal of the Smith Act, extension of aid for foreign
countries culturally, all kinds of legislation which I believe was in the
public interest.
Mr. Scheri:r. Just of interest to me, was there any discussion as to
how the money should be raised for these new activities ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, sure.
Mr. ScHERER, How?
Mr. CoLLOMs. The committee was to borrow money from the Amer-
ican Labor Party in New York for the purpose of running the first
meeting because they were the only people who had any money on hand
that we knew at that time, and then we would repay tliem from the
proceeds of the first meeting which we did.
Mr. SciiERER. I didn't mean that. I mean in your discussions about
this new legislation or expanded legislation of the Federal Govern-
ment, did this committee discuss the means by which the Federal
Government could finance it ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, surely ; taxes.
Mr. ScHERER. Increased taxes ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. No. We didn't say that. We meant a fairer tiix
base.
Mr. Arexs. How much literature did the conference disseminate
over the country ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Over the country ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. C()ij.():\rs. So f;n- as I know, none.
Mr. AkeiVS. Ilowniuch literature did it disseminate ?
Mr. CoLLoMS. There were, as I understand, about .']()0 people ^^-es-
ent at that conference — about -jOO — and 1 guess we gave out oOO pieces
of literature.
Mr. Forer. You nnist have had a. call.
Mr. CoLLOMS. There was a call also.
85333— 37— pt. 1 5
6198 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Are j'ou now, or have you ever been, a member of tlie
Communist Party?
Mr. CoLLOMS. 1 refuse to answer that on tlie grounds of the fifth
and first amendments, and I don't think this conmiittee has any author-
ity to enter an inquiry concerning my beliefs or political affiliations.
Mr. SciiERER. You mean this committee does not have tlie right to
determine Avhether at this date vou are a member of the Cojinminist
Party ^
Mr. CoLLOMS. I said that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been employed by the Federal (rovern-
ment ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I have.
Mr. Arens. Where were you employed by the Federal Government?
Mr. CoLLOMS. In Washington and New York.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. From 1938 to 1940, 1941 to 1946.
Mr. Arens. In what agencies 'i
Mr. CoLLOMS. I was with the United States Housing Administration
from 1938 to 1940 in Washington, and maybe a month in New Y^ork, I
am not sure, and for the Office of Price Administration in New^ Y^'ork
City.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you were employed by the Government of the United States ?
Mr. CoLLoMS. I refuse to answer that question on the same gi-ounds
as stated before.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time during the course of your employ-
ment or as a prerequisite of obtaining employment in the Federal
Government sign a non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Do you laiow where Rose Russell is now ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. At this moment ?
Mr. Arens. Y"es, sir.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I haven't the slightest notion.
Mr. Arens. Have you talked to her or been in contact with her in
the course of the last 10 days ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. As a matter of fact, I think I met her in the lobby
of a theater in New York last Sunday ; that is a week ago yesterday.
I think so. I am not sure.
Mr. Arens. Do you know where Angus Cameron is ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Person.ally, no. 1 heard that he was in Canada hunt-
ing, shooting moose and deer.
Mr. S('iiERER. He wasn't in Himgary. anyliow.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't even know that.
Mr. SciiERER. Where does he live^ What is liis residence when he
is not shooting deer ?
Mr. CoLLOMs. I don't know. He is in New York a good part of the
time.
Mr. Arens. The reason we asked about Rose Russell is because the
committee has been looking for some time to serve a subpena on her,
and cannot find her.
Mr. ( 'oLLOMs. Maybe she is not in New York.
Mr. Akens. The next document is apparently a letter of welcome
used at the Conference for I^egislation in the National Interest,
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6199
April T, 1956, indicating that there were five attachments, as fol-
lows : A program of a conference ; technique for effective writing to
Congressmen: list of key congressional connnittees; key assigmnents
of Xew York City Congressmen and Ignited States Senators; and
bills for proposed legislation classified by panels. I ask if these are
true and correct reproductions of the documents of the Conference
for Legislation in the National Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. This looks like a copy of one of tlie documents that
was used there.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Xo. 50a-n," see appendix, pp. il6(-
T1T9.)
Mr. Arens. Did you undertake to contact any C ongressmen or
members of any of ^ the congressional connnittees in belialf of the
legislative program of the Conference for Legislation in the National
Interest ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I, personally? I think I did. I think I sent some
letters to people in Washington and Congressmen asking to send us
bills. I think Ave had them and I think they were reported on at that
conference.
Mr. Arexs. Did you disseminate information respecting those bills,
around Xew York City ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Xo, at the conference only.
Mr. Arexs. Is the Conference for Legislation in the Xational
Interest or any of its key officers registered or listed under the Lobby-
ing Act ?
Air. CoLLOM.-?. I don't tliink so.
Mr. Arexs. Does tlie Conference for Legislation in the Xational
Interest undertake to influence legislation ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know what you mean by tliat.
Mr. Arexs. Does it advocate certain legislation ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Is there anything wrong with advocating legislation,
sir ?
Mr. Arexs. Xo. I am just asking you if they are doing so.
Mr. CoLLOMS. If 300 people Avho met once can influence legislation^
they have tried to influence legislation.
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you one of the attachments to the letter
of welcome, a four-page bulletin entitled "Dear Congressman," in
which is set forth a technique for contacting Congressmen and a list
of cei'tain Congressmen who are to be contacted on behalf of the
program, of the Conference for Legislation in the Xational Interest,
and so forth, and ask you if that is a true and correct reproduction
or true and correct presentation of the program of the conference.
Mr. CoLLOMs. Yes. This is one. Is this the one you mean that
has:
Avoid post cards. Letters show more thought and interest. A\'rite, do not
wire unless time reciuires it.
Mr. Arexs. Yes.
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Write legibly or use a typewriter.
Mr. Arexs. Yes.
Ml'. CoLLoMs (reading) :
Limit youT letter to one subject.
Mr. Arexs. Yes, sir.
6200 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Give reasons for opinion and don't scold, issue orders, threaten with your
votes.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Be objective and write on the basis of information and not rumor.
Mr. Ahens. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoLLOMS (reading) :
Use letters, praise actions, and bills as well as to condemn. Be original.
Write your own letter.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. CoLLOMS. That is right. We sent that out.
(See exliibit No. 50k, appendix, p. 7175.)
Mr. Arens. What is the position which the conference has taken
with reference to the Battle Act, which prohibits certain trade in cer-
tain strategic materials with the Iron Curtain countries?
Mr. CoLLOMS. As a matter of fact
Mr. Arens. Do you recall the position of the conference with refer-
ence to the Battle Act ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. May I finish my answer, please, Mr. Arens. As a
matter of fact, I don't think any action was taken at any time by the
conference. I think that these instruction sheets or legislative infor-
mation sheets were given to the delegates and that action was pro-
posed, but no formal action w^as taken by the conference because of
the lack of time.
Mr. Arens. Who did the proposing? Who took the position on
these various points?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I would think that it was the reporter who prepared
those sheets for each one of the panels. I am not sure, but I think
that is the way it was done.
Mr. Arens. Who was the reporter ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know. I would have to look back at the
program.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a copy of another bulletin entitled
^'Panel : Survival or Extinction" of the Conference for Ijegislation
in the National Interest. I ask you if that refreshes your recollection ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. As to who prepared it ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoLLOMS. No, it does not refresh my recollection.
Mr. Arens. Does it refresli your recollection with reference to the
position taken by the conference ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. If I read it, it will.
Mr. Arens. Or by the proponents of the conference?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes. It says "For Repeal.''
(See exhibit No. 50c, appendix, p. 7168.)
Mr. Arens. Look at anotlier Inilletin, and tell us the legislative
))osition of the conference with reference to the Smith Act, the im-
munity laws, the Subversive Activities Control Act, and the Com-
munist Control Act.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I imagine it was a repeal for all of those.
Mr. Arens. What connection, if any, to your knowledge has Abner
Green had with the Conference for legislation in the National
Interest?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6201
Mr. CoLLOMS. So far as I know, none.
Mr. Arens. Do yon know Abner Green ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I saw him here.
Mr. Arens. Have yon ever seen him before?
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes, I think I saw him at a dinner in NeAv York.
Mr. Arens. Was that dinner nnder the auspices of the Conference
for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. No.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell the committee who it is, if yon know, who
prepared this memo, Conference for Legislation in the National In-
terest, on the Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Do you know who it is who served on these panels of
the Conference for Legislation in the National Interest?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I think the program is accurate. I don't remember
who they were now. I was not present at each panel. They all ran
simultaneously.
Mr. Arens. Do you know who prepared this program, including the
recommendations ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I am not sure. It was probably the reporter or some
one Avith the reporter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 51," see appendix, p. 7179.)
Mr. Arens. Are you now as secretary of the Conference for Legis-
lation in the National Interest under the discipline of the Communist
conspiracy in this country.
Mr. CoLLOMS. Will you please explain that? I don't know what
you mean by "Communist conspiracy in this country."
Mr. Arens. Communist Party in this country.
Mr. CoLOM. What do you mean by "discipline" ?
Mr. Arens. Are you receiving now orders in connection with your
work in the Conference for Legislation in the National Interest from
the Communist Party or from persons known by you to be members
of the Communist Party?
(Witness consults his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. The answer quite definitely is "No."
Mr. Arens. Are you, while you are a member of the Conference
for legislation in the National Interest, at the same time a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. 'Wliat is that again ? Repeat that.
IVIr. Arens. During the course of your tenure as secretary of the
Conference for I^egislation in the National Interest, are you likewise
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
INfr. Arens. Does the Conference for Legislation in the National
Interest disseminate literature of the American Committee for Protec-
tio^T of Foreign Born ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I think that at that first conference, that 1 conference,
they did have 1 piece of legislation that was issued by the Conunittee
for the Protection of Foreign Born.
JSIr. Arens. You mean one piece of literature ?
Mr. C01J.OMS. That is right.
6202 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Does that conference or has the conference dissemi-
nated literature of the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee such as
this pamphlet entitled "The Smith Act"?
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 52a, b," see appendix, pp. 7180-
7181.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. They may have also had one of those. I am not
sure, but they may have.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, this pamphlet was included in the ma-
terial g'iven to each delegate to the national legislative conference.
Mr. (^olloms, does the conference and has the conference likewise
distributed or disseminated literature of other organizations which
have been found by Government agencies to be Communist fronts?
Mr. Collo:ms. That is one of those, so-called loaded questions — ''has
it also." I don't know what agencies they are.
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; I would suggest that the counsel separate the
questions.
Mr. CoLLOMS. That is right.
Mr. Arens. The National Lawyers Guild
Mr. FoRER. Who found the National Lawyers Guild to be a Com-
munist front ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I was going to ask that.
Mr. Arens. The Commitee on Un-American Activities.
Mr. CoLLOMS. Without a hearing. That is not very binding on
anybody.
Mr. Arens. Let us get to the point. Has the Conference for Legis-
lation in the National Interest distributed literature for the National
Lawyers Guild?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the National Lawyers
Guild?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I have and am.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the National Lawyers Guild
when you were employed by the Federal Government?
Mr. CoLLOMs. I was.
Mr. Arens. Were you in a Communist fraction of tlie National
Lawyers Guild while you were employed by the Federal Government ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. I refuse to answer that one on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known a person by the name
of Mortimer Riemer ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. CoLLOMS. Yes; he was the executive secretary, the first execu-
tive secretary of the National Lawyers Guild when Thurman Arnold
was one of the vice presidents and Judge Frankfuiter was one of the
members and a number of other people in Washington were active.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Riemer is, or ever has been,
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoLLOMS. I think he said so. It was mentioned in the New
York Times in a press release.
Mr. Moulder. He is asking you of your own personal knowledge.
Mr. CoLLOMS. No ; I don't know.
Mr. MoirLDER. That is all you can testify to.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. However, I would like
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6203
two additional documents contained in the committee's files : An
article appearing in the Daily Worlrer, March 19, 1956; and an edi-
torial in the Daily Worker of April G, 1956,
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 53, 54," see appendix, pp. 7182-
7183.)
Mr. Moulder. Mslj I ask you, then, in connection with your Gov-
ernment service, Did you voluntarily resign or was it terminated for
other reasons?
Mr. Colloms. In both cases I voluntarily resigned.
Mr. Moulder. May I make my point here. The right of American
people to assemble and to favor or oppose legislation is an American
privilege or right. The question in response to counsel is whether
or not there is a subversive influence in connection with it which I
miderstand you refused to answer.
Mr. Colloms. I answered every question about the committee. I
refuse to answer my personal beliefs, I believe the committee is
going to continue to function if we can raise enough members and
enough money.
Mr. ScHERER, Let me say this. What I want to know as a Member
of Congress, when I receive information from a committee such as
this, I want to know whether it is information or suggested legislation
coming from tlie Communist Party using a fictitious or seemingly
respectable name.
Mr, Moulder. As I understand this witness' testimony, he denies
having any knowledge or connection with that sort of activity.
Mr. Arens. Yes, but he does not deny Communist Party member-
ship. He has invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Yes, I undei-stand that. But he says he has no
knowledge of any other influence.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. George Murphy, come forward.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Mt.rpiiy. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE B. MURPHY, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY
WILLIAM H. MURPHY AND JOSEPH FORER, COUNSEL
Mr. Arens, Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Murphy. My name is George B. Murphy, Jr. I live at 5210
First Street, NW. I am employed as an assistant to the grand
secretary of the Improved Benevolent and Protective Order of the
Elks of the World.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel identify themselves,
Mr, Murphy. My name is William H. Murphy. I am an attorney.
I am from Baltimore, Md.
Mr. F()ri;h, I am Joseph Forer, again.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?
Mr. Murphy, I just answered that.
Mr. Arens. You didn't say where.
Mr. Murphy. In Washington, D. C.
6204 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. How long have you been so employed ?
Mr. MuRPiiY. Nearly 3 years.
Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you ever known a person by the
name of Dorothy Funn ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis that I
have a privilege under the fifth amendment which denies me the right
to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arens. Dorothy Funn has identified you before this committee
as a person who to her Iniowledge was known as a Communist. Was
she lying or telling the truth ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis as
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Dorothy Funn, would you kindly stand in the back of
the room? Would you kindly look around your left shoulder, Mr.
Murphy, and see the lady standing there and tell the committee
whether you ever saw her before ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer the question as previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask the question, Has this witness you have
asked him to identify testified ?
Mr. Arens. She will testify very shortly, Mr. Chairman.
How long have you been employed in your present job ?
Mr. Murphy. Nearly 3 years, I stated.
Mr. Arens. Where was your employment just prior to the present
employment ?
Mr. JMuRPHY. Prior to that I was general manager of Freedom, a
newspaper, a monthly newspaper.
Mr. Arens. Where is that located ?
Mr. Murphy. That was located in New York City.
Mr. Arens. "WHio controlled Freedom ? Who owned it ?
Mr. Murphy. It was a corporation.
Mr. Arens. Who was the president ?
Mr. Murphy. I believe Mr. Louis E. Burnham was president and I
was secretary general.
Mr. Arens. Is the paper still in existence ?
Mr. Murphy. No.
Mr. Arens. Just give us a word about the editorial board.
Mr. Murphy. As nearly as I can recall, Mrs. Shirley Graham was a
member of the editorial board, Mr. Paul Robeson, Dr. Alphaeus
Hunton, Mrs. INIodjeska Simpkins.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation immediately prior to your
employment with the publication, Freedom ?
Mr. Murphy. I was assistant to the campaign manager of the Pro-
gressive Party.
Mr. Arens. Where was that ?
Mr. Murphy. That was located in New York City.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you occupy that position ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't remember the exact number of years. It was
about 2 years.
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to your
job witli the Progressive Party?
Mr. Murphy. Prior to that, I was national commander of the United
Negro and Allied Veterans of America.
Mr. AiiENs. How long did you 1 lold that post ?
Mr. Murphy. Approximately 2 years.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6205
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to that ?
Mr. Murphy. I was in the Army.
Mr. Arexs. AVhat was your term of service in the Army ?
Mr. Murphy. Three years.
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to the time
that you went into the xVrniy ?
Mr. Murphy. I was administrative secretary to the National Negro
Congress.
Mr. Arens. What was your position prior to that ?
Mr, Murphy. Prior to tliat I think I was general manager of the
Washington Afro- American.
Mr. Arexs. Identify that pviblication, please.
Mr. Murphy. A Negro weekly publication,
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your
employment with the Afro-American ?
Mr. Murphy. Prior to that I was a teacher at Allen University.
Mr. xVrens. Where is that ^
Mr. Murphy. A Negro school under the auspices of the xVfrican
Metliodist Episcopal Church in Columbia, S. C.
Mr. Arens. Would you give us, then, a word about your employment
prior to that time ^
Mr. Murphy. That was my first employment. I would say this,
other than summer work in hotels.
Mr, Arens. Are you now a member of the Comnumist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I decline to answer that question on the basis as pre-
viously stated. I think at this point, Mr. Chairman, I ought to state
respectfully to the committee that I have a definite reason for utilizing
the fifth amendment on the basis of the fact. No. 1, that in the entire
record of this committee, as a Negro in this comitry, who has not yet
fully received his rights, I have seen no record in tlie entire formation
of the committee from the time it began, as much as I knew it under
the Dies committee, where it has ever brought forward any organi-
zation, any group of people, who have continued to deny our people
their rights such as the great conspiracy of the white citizens' coun-
cils, the Ku Klux Klan, and other organizations which I really regard
as the genuine conspiracy in America.
Mr. Arens. Do you regard the Communist Party as a conspira-
torial organization ?
Mr. Murphy. No, I don't.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question as previously stated.
Mr, Arens, I lay before you, Mr, ISIurphy, a document entitled,
"Mobilize for Peace, Chicago, August 31, and September 1-2, 1940,"
in which are listed a number of sponsors who were participants in this
conference, including a person identified as George Murphy, Jr,, Na-
tional Association for the Advancement of Colored People. I ask if
you are the George Murphy referred to,
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 55a, b." See appendix, pp. 7184-
7185.)
Mr. Murphy. Before I identify that, Mr. Chairman, I want to recall
my memory. I was employed as public relations director of the Na-
tional Association for the Advancement of Colored People for 3 years.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall. It was probably 1937 and 1939, or 1937
and 1940.
6206 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. SciiERER. While you were employed as a public relations di-
rector for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People, were you a member of the Communist Party at that time?
Mr. MuRPiiY. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as previously stated.
Mr. Moulder. May I say your statement about this committee not
investigating the Ku Klux Klan and other organizations, which you
say are contrary to the civil rights and rights of the colored people,
that even so has never encouraged, shall I say, the colored people to
be connected with the Communist conspiracy or the Communist Party.
I, as a member of this committee, will say that I have observed that
the colored people as a people have had, I would say, the most intense
loyalty to our present form of government and the American system of
government, and have never fallen for the propaganda or for the Com-
munist conspiracy or the Communist Party, either.
I would say even subjected to the abuses you have mentioned, I would
say that they have never been susceptible to being prejudiced against
their own Government for the Communist Party or any such con-
spiracy.
Mr. Murphy. I appreciate your observation, but my point in an-
swer to that is this. Actually, underneath the record that I have
pointed out as to why I felt the way I did, is a whole system and
principle of white supremacy in this country. If I may be permitted
to say so, you exemplify that when you undertake to tell me what our
people are loyal to and not loyal to. You are not in our minds. You
don't know what Negro people have sulfered all of these years. To
say in the face of that that somehow or other they remain loyal to this
Government to me
;Mr. ISIoulder. I am saying from my observation on this committee.
Mr. Murphy. That is your observation, and I am giving mine, if
you please.
Mr. Arens. Was your disassociation from the National Association
for the Advancement of Colored People voluntary ?
Mr. Murphy. Voluntarily. I resigned.
Mr.^ Arens. Did you make known to the officials of the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People any connection
you may have had with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I decline to answer that question on the basis as I
have previously stated.
I would like to state, however, why I resigned from the NAACP.
If you are interested in knowing that.
Mr. Arens, All right, go ahead.
Mr. Murphy. The question came up there in the NAACP at the time
as to how far a person might rtisponsibly occupy a position in the
NAACP and exercise his right as a citizen to vote or to help people in
the right to be elected to office, and I took the position that while carry-
ing out my duties and occupying my office in conformity with the regu-
lations of the NAACP that beyond that point no organization had any
control over my actions, in either helping to elect people to office or
otherwise, and in that case I was exercising my right as a citizen.
There was a difference of opinion about that.
Mr. MouLHER. The point I was trying to malce clear a moment ago
that the colored people have never felt as a group that they could
rectify the grievances and injustices that they complain of through
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6207
the Communist Party. There is some evidence of Commmiist Party
attempt to infilter and gain the affiliation of the colored people with
the Communist Party because of their grievances. I say they have
resisted it. Have you ever as such a person attempted to represent the
Communist Party
Mr. Murphy. Before I answer that question I want to take excep-
tion to what you just said. You nor no Member of Congress or any
white person in this country can sit up before me, you might before
some Negro people, and make a statement as to what you know the
Negro people think or feel. You can only judge by your experience
in observing them. Therefore, I am not going to permit you, sir, to
speak for our feelings and relationships.
Mr. Moulder. I am not trying to speak for them. I am trying to
be very fair about it.
Mr. MuRPUY. I believe you are. I am trying to tell j^ou. Repre-
sentative Moulder, that the whole notion of white superiority in this
country creates a patronizing attitude toward Negroes where white
people can undertake to state for them what their feelings are and
how they react. This I regard as an insult to our intelligence and an
insult to our people.
Mr. Moulder. I am not taking a patronizing attitude. I am simply
saying that the Communist Party is not a solution to what you are
talking about. Don't you agree with me on that ?
Mr. Murphy. I have no observation to make on that.
Mr. Mout^der. That is my thought.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been chairman or honorary chairman of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. MtTiPHY. I have been an honorary cochairman of the Ameri-
can Committeee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you occupy that position ?
Mr. Murphy. As a matter of fact, up until maybe more than 2
years ago.
Mr. Arexs. Did you serve as cochairman of the National Confer-
ence of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Murphy. "V^Hiich national conference ?
Mr. Arens. Held in New York City in December of 1954 ?
]Mr. Murphy. I don't think I was present at that conference.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes ; I know Abner Green.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as executive secretary of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
]Mr. MupjPHY. Yes. I would like to make the observation here that
in knowing Abner Green for as long as I have been connected with the
committee, which lias been as far back as I can remember, since 1938,
at which time I had a friend to take over to Ellis Island for naturaliza-
tion proceedings, and I asked the American Committee wliich was then
located on Fifth Avenue, could they help me to solve that problem
since our association, the NAACP, knew nothing about it, and when
I got over there one of the first things I found out which made me
feel that the American Committee was on the right track in helping
our people was that this friend whom I took there was told to state
that he was black.
Never mind what the rest of his nationality is, and that he could
only come into this country as a black person. I discussed this case
6208 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
"vvith the American Committee and they said that whenever a person,
even if he objects to it, that was the ruling, and nothing could be done
about it, but they would try to help insofar as they were able. Later
on, I came to know the committee because of the large number of West
Indian Negro people who have been denied their rights in connection
with coming into the country under the quota systems and that has
been my interest in the American Committee.
Because I believe that a Negro in this country cannot profitably
or loyally serve our Government while fighting for his own rights
even against those things which our Government and its agencies may
do against him without broadening his scope to see that the foreign-
born in this country have also been denied rights. That is the comity
of interest I have with the American Committee and which I still
retain.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Abner Green is a member
of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I have no such knowledge.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document entitled, "National Con-
ference to Eepeal the Walter-McCarran Law, December 1953," the
summary of proceedings in which it is stated that one George B.
Murphy, Jr.. introduced the chairman of the meeting and participated
in the meeting. I lay that before you and ask you if you have a recol-
lection of that session ?
(Document marked ''Exhibit V," see appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
Mr. Murphy. That appears to be correct.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Daily AVorker
of October 9, 1940, in which is set forth an article about a rally
to protest the efforts of Nicholas Murray Butler respecting the policy
of our Government and the title of the activity is "Walk Out on War,"
and ask you if you recall being in that conference ?
Mr. FoRER. This article about the American Student Union you
mean ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Murphy. I couldn't recall automatically whether I was present.
But I am quite certain that if it was a committee in which they were
protesting the ideas of war, it is perfectly possible I was present.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 56," see appendix, p. 7186.)
Mr. Arens. That was during the Hitler-Stalin Pact.
Mr. Murphy. I don't remember whether it was before that or after.
Mr. Arens. Did you change your position on war after Hitler in-
vaded Soviet Russia ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question om the basis that I
previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. How would that incriminate you?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the same basis.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you conscientiously believe that the answer to that
question subjects you to possible criminal prosecution?
Mr. Murphy. JRepresentative Scherer, before I answer thal^ ques-
tion I want to make this statement. I have indicated in the beginning
that the entire record of this committee in relationship to Negi'o people
does not make me a person who could speak other than earnestly what
T believe before it. That is the basis. Wlien you ask me do I ear-
nestly believe, there is no other position T can take. I refuse to answer
it on that basis.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6209
Mr. ScHERER. I ask you to direct the witness to answer my question.
Mr. FoRER. He just did. Your last question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask the cliairman to direct him to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Moulder. As requested by Congressman Scherer the witness is
directed to give a direct or responsive answer to the question. That
is not given in the spirit of a threat but to apprise you of your pos-
sible dangers involved in connection therewith.
Mr. Forer. May we have the question, because I thought he an-
swered it. Your question was whether he sincerely believed so and
he answered.
Mr. Scherer. He invoked the fifth amendment. I think you will
advise him to answer "yes" because you have advised every other wit-
ness to answer "yes"' to that question.
Mr. Forer. I thought he answered the question. May we have the
question again ?
Mr. Scherer. I asked him whether he honestly believes, to answer
the question asked him by counsel, would tend to incriminate him?
Mr. IMuRPHY. I am sure there is a tremendous possibility that it
might.
Mr, Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of September 16, 1940, "Negro Leaders Protest
Attacks Against Communist Candidates," in which a statement ap-
pears protesting certain activities taken by the Government of the'
United States against the Communist conspiracy. In it appears the
names of a number of people joining in the statement, including one
George B. Murphy. Jr., director of publicity of the National Associa-
tion for the Advancement of Colored People, New York. I ask you
if you recall joining in that statement of the defense of the Communist
conspirators ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know what you mean by tlie "Communist con-
spirators," Mr. Prosecutor. It says "Negro Leaders Protest Attacks
Against Communist Candidates," and my name is on that. I am sure
I did.
Mr. Arens. You did or did not?
Mr. Murphy. I did.
( Document marked "Exhibit No. 57," see appendix, pp. 7186-7187.)
Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that
time?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis as pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker of Wednesday, March 5, 1941, has
a statement entitled, "List of Signers of Statement Defending the
Communist Party," and a statement which is addressed to the Presi-
dent and to Ihe Congress, to uphold the constitutional rights of the
Communist Party. Appeai'ing in tliis list of names is that of George
B. Murphy, Jr.. Washington, D. C, and T ask you if you were the
George B. Murphy identiiied (here?
Mr. Murphy. This says:
Fullowinj.' is the cnmiilctc list of 4.10 iiroiiiiiKMit AnuM-icans who siii'iied a state-
ment urging the President and Congress to defend the rights of the Communist
Tarty.
Mr. Arexs. Did you sign that statement?
6210 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Murphy. I suspect that was during the time when they had the
question of w^hether or not they should be ruled off the ballot. Yes,
I signed that statement on the basis that I would support the rights
of any group whether they are regarded as political dissenters or not.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 58a-h," see appendix, pp. 7188-
7195.)
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of the Trotskyites?
Mr. Murphy. I could not be true to my own feeling about the rights
of Negroes unless I supported the right of political dissenters.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the right of Trotskyites to be in
existence and function ?
Mr. Murphy. If they are people who are being denied their rights
because of the political beliefs; yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of Fascists or Nazis?
Mr. Murphy. Now you are asking a question which you know per-
fectly well that I as a Negro would never support any Fascist or any
Nazi. How could I, in good conscience ?
Mr. Arens. I didn't ask you whether you would support the Nazis
or Fascists.
Mr. Murphy. No; I wouldn't support any Fascists or Nazis in
this country.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of any Nazis or Fascists ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't think the two terms are interchangeable.
Mr. Arens. You said you would support the rights of the Com-
munists ?
Mr. Murphy. That is right, as political dissenters.
Mr. Arens. Would you support the rights of a Nazi or Fascist?
Mr. Murphy. A Nazi racist ; no.
Mr. Forer. Mr. Chairman, what is this hearing about?
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly restrain himself for a moment?
Mr. Moulder. Let us proceed.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the APM Memo,
a publication of the American Peace Mobilization. On page 2 there
appears an article including this quotation, "Only then can you effec-
tively organize the Negro people to give expression to their deep and
undying hatred of war, their hatred of this imperialistic war, this war
for profits and power." It was upon this note that Chairman George
B. Murphy, Jr., administrative secretary of the National Negro Con-
gress adjourned the meeting. Do you recall being in attendance at
that meeting in New York City and making those statements ?
Mr. Murphy. I am (juite sure I could have made those statements.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 59," see appendix, pp. 719(5, 7197.)
Mr. Arens. During the course of the time that you were in the Na-
tional Association for the Advancement of Colored People were you
likewise connected with the National Negro Congress?
JVIr. Murphy. No.
Mr. Sgherer. Mr. Counsel, will you repeat that statement from the
previous document, the statement about war ?
Mr. Arens. "Only then can you effectively organize the Negro
people to give expression to their deep and undying hatred of war,
their hatred of this imperialistic war, this war for profits and power."
It was upon this note that Mr. George B. Murphy, administrative sec-
retary of the National Negro Congress, adjourned the meeting.
Mr. Scherer. When did you change your opinion about war?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6211
Mr. Murphy. What do you mean about changing my opinion ?
Mr. ScHERER. You took an opposite stand when Russia became an
ally.
Mr. Murphy. I refused to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Do you recall writing to the New Masses protesting
what you described as persecution of Earl Browder ?
Mr! Murphy. I am sure I might liave.
Mr. Arens. Did you write to the New Masses saying among other
things :
As a Negro, member of an oppressed people in America, I am more convinced
than ever that Mr. Browder and the common people of our land will win out in
the end, no matter what the cost.
Mr. IVIuRPHY. I am quite sure I could have made that statement.
Mr. Arens. Did you know at that time that Mr. Browder was a
member of the Connnunist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the article I just
mentioned appearing in the New Masses in April 1941, and ask you if
you wrote that article ?
Mr. Murphy. This could be the reprint of a letter that I wrote.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 60," see appendix, p. 7198.)
Mr. Arens. That is what I mean.
Mr. Murphy. You said did I Avrite that article. There is a dif-
ference.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scherer. What difference?
Mr. Murphy. Surely you should know as a person who writes an
article as a newsman I know the difference. The person who writes
a letter and has it printed is not necessarily an article unless it is clear.
Mr. Scherer. Let us not quibble.
Mr. Murphy. I am not quibbling. I am here. Representative
Scherer, being smeared and being placed in a position as a Negro who
still is not free and you tell me about quibbling.
Mr. Arens. Would you tell us whether or not you were on the com-
mittee to elect Ben Davis in New York City?
Mr. Murphy. I am quite sure I could have been.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Ben Davis is and was at
the time you were on the committee to elect him a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I think Ben Davis ran on the Communist Party
ticket and was elected.
Mr. Arens. Were you on the committee to support him ?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I must have been on the committee.
Mr. Arens. Did you know at the time he ran he was a Communist?
Mr. Murphy. I just got through saying that he ran on the Commu-
nist Party ticket.
Mr. Arens. Did you contribute to a book entitled "Inside Story of
the T^egion," which attacks the American legion ?
Mr. Murphy. T^t me see the book. I am sure I could have. I
don't know. T would have to look at it to see because I have always
regarded the American Ijegion as an organization which by no means
6212 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOlSr
gave Negro veterans their rights and does not even today. If dis-
criminates against them. I could have.
Mv. Arens. Did j^ou participate in the formulation of that book
■svhich attacks the American Legion ?
INIr. Murphy. Yon asked the question did I participate in the for-
mulation of this book?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Murphy. This seems to be an acknowledgment of people who
talked to the author of the book. So what do you mean?
Mr. Arens. Did you contribute to that book, give material to the
author?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I talked to the author of this book about
my views about the American Legion.
*Mr. Moulder, Are the quotations in the book an expression of your
views.?
Mr. Murphy. He would have to identify those quotations.
Mr. Moulder. I mean the point he refers to in the book.
Mr. Scherer. He has already answered it.
Mr. FoRER. It is just an introductory page of acknowledgments.
Mr. Murphy. This author, I am sure, discussed the whole question
of the Negro veterans' attitude toward the American Legion ?
Mr. Arens. Have you been a sponsor for the American Youth for
Democracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I am quite sure I could have been.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a sponsor of the American Youth for
Democracy ?
Mr. Murphy. Have you got anything to show me ?
Mr. Arens. I will lay before you a document, Tribute to Jewish
Youth, on the occasion of the fourth anniversary of American Youth
for Democracy, in which appears a list of sponsors, including George
B. Murphy, Jr., and ask you if you are he?
(Witness consults with his counsel.)
Mr. Murphy. Yes, my nanie appears there.
Mr. Arens. Did 3'ou participate in a joint statement to the President
of the United States and the Attorney General on behalf of the na-
tional leaders of the Communist Party who were arrested under the
Smith Act and subsequently tried and convicted ?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I did that.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now of ]:)hotostatic copy of The Worker,
Sunday, August 29, 1948. One of the endorsers of a statement of
Negro-Americans to the President and the Attorney General is George
B. Murphy, Jr. Are you the "Murphy" listed as an endorser?
Mr. ]MuRPiiY. Yes, that is my name.
Mr. Arens. T\^io solicited you to sign that ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't remember. I am quite sure if I received a
communication it might have come from the members who were get-
ting up the list, but I don't recall any individual who solicited me.
That would l)e in conformity with my views of defending these people.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 61a, b," see appendix, pp. 7199,
7200.)
Mr. Arens. Who solicited you to participate in the Progressive
Party program? I understood you to say that you were an officer or
an employee of the Progressive Party for some time.
Mr. Murphy. Yes, that is right. I don't recall exactly how I came
to be employed.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6213
Mr. Arens. Who was your immediate superior?
Mr. Murphy. Mr. Beany Baldwin, C. B. Baldwin.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Mr. Baldwin is or has been
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. MuRrHY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been identified with the Southern Con-
ference for Human Welfare ?
Mr. Murphy. I certainly have. I want to state here that not only
was I identified with it but I supported its ideas because there again,
this Southern Conference, even though it has been pilloried and slan-
dei'ed through the years, the great work that conference did helped to
give our people a sense of confidence of their rights in the South where
even today people are being killed and denied the right to vote, and
that again I want to refei lo the fact that in terms of feeling about
their Americanism, Mr. Chairman, I think it is of the highest sort.
Mr. ScHERER. Let me say to you, sir, listening to you today, that
it makes it very difficult — persons like you make it very difficult for
persons like me who all our legislative lives have supported the civil
rights legislation and have supported the things you say you are
fighting for — you just make it so much more difficult and our task
so much more difficult.
Mr. MuRPPiY. Representative Scherer, my reply to that would be
this : I have listened to you. My reply to that would be I am really not
concerned how difficult it makes it for you. Representative Scherer. I
am concerned about my rights and the rights of my people. I am not
concerned about niceties of feelings when you are dealing with 17
million people, many of whom have been lynched and denied the right
to vote and even in the last elections denied the right to vote. I don't
think your remarks in that respect, though I have respect for your
feelings, are on a level with my feelings.
Mr. Scherer. No, it just hurts 3^our people. You hurt 3^our people.
Mr. Murphy. I don't think I do hurt my people at all. I have never
had any feeling that I would lift my hand and have it cut off before
I ever felt I would do anything to hurt my people. That is your opin-
ion. Representative Scherer.
jNIr. Arens. Are you concerned about the activities in the T%ited
States of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know what you are talking about when you
say "Communist conspiracy."
Mr. Arens. Are you concerned with the Communist Party activi-
ties in the United States?
Mr. Murphy. I am concerned with fighting for the rights of my
people and joining whatever groups which in my view help push for-
ward and develop the ideas of a Declaration of Independence and the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights which my people also helped with
their blood to put into the Constitution. That is where I stand on
that question.
Mr. Moulder. In connection with that statement, do you think the
Counnunist Party represents the principles that you have just stated?
Mr. Murphy. I have never felt in my life, Mr. Moulder, under any
circumstances, privately or publicly, that in my view the Commu-
nists could be construed as people who are doing an3^thing against the
I'ights of my people.
85333— 57— pt. 1 6
6214 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Moulder. I mean do you think they are the champions and do
you think that they are the party that would be the solution to what
you complain about?
Mr. Murphy. On the question of whether or not they would be the
solution that is a matter for history to decide. We are not yet
free. So I cannot come to a final conclusion on that.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a participant in a civil rights session
attacking the FBI?
Mr. Murphy. What is the name of that ?
Mr. Arkns. Call to a Bill of Rights Conference, in New York City
in July 1949. I lay before you documents which might refresh your
recollection.
(Documents marked "Exhibits No. f)2a-d," see appendix, pp. 7201-
7204.)
Mr. Murphy. I want to be sure which question you are asking.
Mr. Arens. That is the meeting.
Mr. Forer. He is talking about my speech at some conference.
Mr. Murphy. I want to say this about that: I am quite sure that
as a Negro who has also had visited on liim on the streets even in
Washington, as well as FBI agents coming to his office questioning
his Americanism, I would be a part of such a committee because I
don't think under any circumstances that that kind of a situation,
attacking me, a citizen in the community here, and attempting to make
me feel among my own people, among the community, that I am some
kind of a spy or some kind of un-American person.
That is what I meant, Representative Moulder, when I said this
record of this committee attempts to delimit how and under what cir-
cumstances within the framework of the Constitution the Negro people
in this country may protest for their rights. It denies them the right
to support other political organizations which may be in disrepute but
who they feel honestly are moving in tlie direction of giving us our
rights.
Mr. Scherer. The FBI called on you not because you are a Negro.
Don't try to leave that impression.
Mr. Murphy. You are not defining for me why I believe the FBI
called on me. Why they called on me partly because I am a Negro.
Certainly they did that. They hope to scare this Negro and scare
others.
Mr. Scherer. Let me get it in the record. They called on him be-
cause he was a member of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Murphy. That is your opinion about it. That is what I mean
about the wliite supremacy attitude. You are expressing it right
now. You liave no respect for what Negroes feel or think. Just-,
what Representative Scherer thinks must go. I don't agree with that.
Mr. Scherer. A typical Communist speech.
Mr. Murphy. That is also covering up the genuine conspiracy that-
I am talking about. So you think when a Negro stands up before a
committee of Congress and defends the rights of his people and their
right of fi-ee association it becomes a Connnunist speech. You don't
answer the question why you haven't called tlie White Citizens' Coun-
cil, the Kn Khix Klnn in liere, and tlieso groups tliat have oi'ganized
here to despoil tlie Wasliington school system. You don't answer
that question. You merely give me your opinion about me. That is
your freedom of action to do. And my freedom to reject it.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6215
Mr. ScHERER. Your speech now indicates why I said men like you
of the Negro race make it difficult for men like me, who have fought
for tlie very things you say you are fighting for, to do something.
Mr. Murphy. I don't believe you. Representative Scherer. I don't
believe you.
Mr. Scherer. Let me tell you this
Mr- Murphy. You may shout from the housetops and 1 would refuse
to believe you.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article in the
New York Times of July 17 and 18, 1949, in which another Bill of
Rights Conference was held in New York City and a resolution calling
for restored civil liberties for members of the Socialist Workers
Party, a Trotskyite organization, was decisively rejected by 800 dele-
gates to the conference. Were you in attendance at that conference
in which they decisively rejected the civil rights of the Trotskyite
branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I am quite sure I could have been present.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 62a, b," see appendix, pp. 7205,
7206.)
Mr. Arens. Was it your position that they should not restore the
rights of the Trotskyite branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I didn't express any position one way or the other,
as I recall.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat is your position now ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as I have indicated before.
Mr. Scherer. This man becomes strangely silent when we ask him
the pertinent questions but he makes long speeches with great vigor
otherwise.
Mr. Murphy. I am not going to sit here and accept those snide re-
marks from you. Yes, I am not making speeches, I am testifying.
Because I testify a little loudly that becomes a speech. That is what
many white people in this country wlio want to deny Negroes their
rights attempt to do. "You must speak softly. You must do it the
way we within our white supremacy attitude feel is the proper way."'
That is what you are saying. That is my reply to you about your
remarks about me.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the National Nonpartisan Com-
mittee To Defend the Rights of the 12 ( 'ommunist Leaders ?
Mr. Murphy. I am not now, as I recall, a part of any such committee.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time ?
Mr. Murphy. I might have been.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which includes a list of
persons in the process of formation of that committee, wherein your
name appears. I ask you whether or not you were a member of that
organization ?
Mr. Murphy. If my name is on there I was a member.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 64a, b," see appendix, pp. 7207,
7208.)
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in a National Legislative Confer-
ence on Naturalization and Deportation held January 25-26, 1948,
under the auspices of the American Connnittee for Protection of
Foreign Boi-n liere in Washington? I lay befoie you a photostatic
copy of its program.
6216 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Murphy. This is back in 1948, but I am quite sure I was a mem-
ber of the committee then.
Mr. Arexs. Did you participate in the establishment of a National
Committee for the Protection of West Indian Americans under the
auspices of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
in 1951?
Mr. Murphy. I am sure I was.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Green was on the stand earlier today and was a
little bashful about some of these organizations created by the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Can you tell us some
of the organizations which that committee recruited in order to effec-
tuate its legislative or political program ?
JSIr. Murphy. I don't know of any such organizations.
Mr. Arens. Did the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born have an auxiliary or branch in New York City ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know. They might have.
Mr. Arens. You were honorary chairman?
Mr. Murphy. An honorary chairman does not know all the detail
workings of an organization.
Mr. Arens. Did you know whether the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born had a branch in Los Angeles ?
jNIr. Murphy. They might have. I am quite sure they might have.
Mr. Arens. Did they have a branch in the Midwest?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know for a fact about all of these places.
Mr. Arens. Tell us about those that you do know about.
Mr. Murphy. I don't know of any as a fact.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Pearl Hart ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Wliere was she from ?
Mr. Murphy. As far as I know she was from Chicago and she is an
estimable lawyer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she is a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that on the basis I iiidieated in the
past.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the formulation of any of these
subsidiary organizations, which the testimony thus far shows to be
over 100 which were created by the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Murphy. No.
Mr. Arens. What is your present relationshij) to tlie .Vmerican
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Murphy. I am a sponsor.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been disassociated with jxjsition of
honoi-ary chairman ?
Ml-. AlrRPiiY. As I answered before, I think it is a little or so ago.
I said 1 could not give the time when I was no longer cocliairnian.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a document beariiig date
of December 11, 1954, which pertains to a National Conference to
Defend the Rights of the Foreign Born Americans tinder the auspices
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. "The
conference banquet was held on Saturday evening. George B. Mur-
phy, Jr., of Washington, D. C, presided." Do you recall that con-
ference?
(Document marked "Exhibit VI," see appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
COMMU>;iST POLITICAL fcUB^■ERSION 6217
Mr. Murphy, ^^^lat was the date ?
Mr. Arexs. 1954 in December.
Mr. Murphy. If it said I presided I ain sure I did. In my capacity
as honorary cocliairman I presided at a number of conferences.
Mr. Arexs. Tlie speakers inchided Alec Jones, executive secretary
of tlie XeAv York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Did you
kno"sv him ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arex's. Did you know him as executive secretary of that
organization ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't know whether he was executive secretary at
that time or not. He might have been.
Mr. Arens. Did 3'ou know whether or not he was a Communist?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as I indicated in the past.
Mr. Arens. How about Yanez, secretary of the Eastside Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born? Did you know her?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall the name. There are a number of people
I didn't know personally.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harriet Barron ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes ; I know her very well.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she was a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Apjens. Did you know Pettibone Smith ?
Mr. Murphy. The name is not "Pettibone Smith." The name is
Prof. Louise Pettibone Smith. She at one time was cochairman with
me for the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
Mr. Arens. Did you know Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as indicated.
Mr. Arens. You held a number of panels. You had a panel on
organized labor which was reported on by Louis Weinstock. Did you
know him ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in this session?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether he was a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy ?
Mr. Murphy. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment as indicated.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Frank H. Ilchuk?
Mr. Murphy. Not offhand.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Murphy. I already answered that question in the affirmative.
Mr. Arex's. Did you know Constantine Ossip ?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall the name.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Leroy Fisher ?
6218 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall the name.
Mr. Arens. Wasn't Ossip treasurer of the committee ?
Mr. INIuRPHY. I don't recall the name I said.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Evelyn Abelson ?
Mr. Murphy. Not offhand, I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Helen Lewis?
Mr. Murphy. I don't recall that name offhand.
Mr. Arens. I res^Dectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that would con-
clude the interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. Thank you all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Xeedleman. I am Isidore G. Needleman, attorney, I represent
a Negro witness who if she does not reurn to New York and misses
another day would lose her job. I respectfully urge you call her at
this time.
Mr. Arens. We would like to have Mrs. Funn take the stand.
Mr. Moulder. We will take Mrs. Funn and then call your client.
Mrs. Funn, I believe, your name is now, Mrs. Swan.
Mrs. Swan, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you arc about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the tinitli,
so help you God ?
Mrs. Swan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY FUNN SWAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Swan. My name is Dorothy Swan. From Jamaica, N. Y. I
am a teacher in the schools of the city of New York.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Commmiist Party ?
Mrs. Swan. Yes, I have.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell the committee in resume form the period
of 3^our membership in tlie Communist Party and a thumbnail sketch
of your career in the party.
Mrs. Swan. I joined the Communist Party in May 1939 and I left
the Communist Party in the latter part of December 1946. During
the time of my membership in the Communist Party up until Feb-
ruary 1 of 1943 I was simultaneously a teacher in the New York City
school system. I resigned in 1943 and did not become a part of the
New York City school system again until February 1947. My Com-
mmiist activity consisted of acting as the executive secretary of the
Brooklyn Council of the National Negro Congress, approximately
in 1940 and 1941.
I then acted as the administrative secretary of the National Negi'o
Labor Council, also a Communist-front organization, from aj^proxi-
mately September 1942 to about July of 1943. In 1943, November,
I became the legislative representative of the National Negro Con-
gress and came to Washington and was in and out of Washington,
establishing residence here, however, for the period of November 1943
until December 1946.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership in the Com-
munist Party did you have occasion to make the acquaintanceship of
a person by the name of George B. Murphy ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6219
Mrs. 8\VAN. Yes, I did. When I became the executive secretary
of the Brooklyn Council of the National Negro Congress Mr. Murphy
was the achninistrative secretary, nationally, of the organization with
offices here at that time in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Arens. Did you know whether or not Mr. Murphy was a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Swan. I did not know it immediately upon my going into the
National Negi'o Congress but subsequently I did find out that he was
a member of the Communist Party, due to the fact that we met in
closed Communist Party meetings with Communist Party members
only. Some of those meetings had to do with the policy to be laid
down and carried out by the National Negro Congress Communist
Party members working in the National Negro Congress.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify George B. Murphy, the
man who preceded you to the witness stand, as a person known by you
to have been a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Swan. I do, sir.
Mr. Arens. For the purpose of identification, are you of the Negro
race ?
Mrs. Swan. I am. May I also say that Mr. Murphy's expressions
today were the feelings of perhaps many of us in the years past and the
reason for many of us having joined the Communist Party, but I can-
not associate with his expressions today and I do not feel that he
speaks for anyone but himself.
Mr. Moulder. But he seeks to defend his position by claiming he is
a Negro.
Mrs. Swan. That is his say-so. I just am speaking for myself.
1 cannot go along with the statements made here today, made by him,
as far as I am affected.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership in the Commu-
nist Party, did you know a person by the name of Dorothy Strange?
Mrs. Swan. I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you knoAv her as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Swan. I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify Dorothy Strange who, to
your certain knowledge, was a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Swan. I do.
Mr. Arens. How did you first know her ?
Mrs. Swan. I met her first in November of 1943 in Washington,
D. C. I was told by Edward Strong, the executive secretary of the
National Negro Congress, who employed me to become the legislative
representative here, that I would go to Washington and make contact
with one of our people, meaning one of our Communist Party mem-
bers. This person, Dorothy Strange, would be the one who would
arrange my contacts with the members of the Communist Party in
leadership here in Washington, D. C. I came to Washington.
I met Dorothy Strange and it was through her tliat I did meet the
organizer for the Washington Communist Party, who sat down with
Dorothy Strange and me and planned how we should organize the
Washington Council of the National Negro Congress and some of
my responsibilities as legislative representative on the national scale
for the same organization.
6220 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Is Dorothy Strange in the hearing room ?
Mrs. Swan. She was.
Mr. Arexs. Would 3^011 kindly stand, Mrs. Strange?
(Woman stands.)
Mrs. Swan. That is the young lady I knew as Dorothy Strange,
who became administrative secretary of the Washington Council of
the National Negro Congress at that time.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify the lady who stood up
in the second row of the hearing room as a person who was known
by you to be a member of the Conununist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Swan. I do.
Mr. Arens. During your membership in the Cbmmunist Party and
in your activity in the National Negro Congress, did you reach a
conclusion in your own mind respecting the sincerity of the Commu-
nist Party to serve the legitimate interests of the Negro race?
Mrs. Swan. I came to a very definite conclusion that the Com-
munist Party was not the organization to serve the best interests of
the Negro race. The Communist Party had one thing in mind and
that was the violent overthrow of the Government of the United States
and they would use whatever means they found at hand or that were
made available to carry through their particular conspiracy against
the Government of the United States. I feel that I as many other
Negroes, were a pawn in the hands of the leaders of the Communist
Party during the time that I was a member of it.
For those reasons, and others of the same kind, I disassociated
myself from the Communist Party and went back to the work that
I felt I belonged in and should never have left.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. Thank you, Mrs. Swan.
Mr. Moulder. We want to express our appreciation for your sin-
cere and frank testimony and may I add that I wish to compliment
you for your statement in defense of the Negro people. Our obser-
vation is that there are far less members of the Communist Party
who are Negroes in proportion to the population than any other people.
Mrs. Swan. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. I think that Mr. Murphy's testimony was not because
of being colored but because of his philosophy, and he defends it by
saying it is because he is a Negro and gaining sympathy.
Mrs. Swan. I don't know what you want to say but I am in com-
plete agreement with you. I should say, yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I want to concur that the testimony before this com-
mittee has shown conclusively that the Negro race has resisted more
than any other group, the attempts of the Communist Party to make
them pawns, as you have just testified.
Mr. Moulder. Because of their grievances, and I would say, just
grievances.
( Witness excused. )
Mr. Arens. The next witness will be Dorothy Strange.
Mr. Moulder. Mrs. Strange, do you swear that the testimony you
are about to give shall be the ti'uth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth so help you God ?
Mrs. Strange. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6221
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY S. STRANGE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDIEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Strange. My name is Dorothy Strange. I live in New York,
at 601 West 149th Street, New York City. 1 work at the Long Island
College Hospital.
Mr. Arens. How long have you worked there?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. You didn't understand me, I am sure.
Mr. Moui.nER. He asked j'ou how long yovi had worked there ?
Mrs. Strange, Not quite 2 years.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena served
upon you by the House Un-American Activities Committee?
Mrs. Strange. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Strange. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, Counsel.
]\Ir. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Strange, did you hear the testimony a few moments
ago of Mrs. Swan before this committee?
Mrs. Strange. You mean Funn ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. F-u-n-n. She was under oath and identified you
as a Communist. Was she lying or telling the truth when she iden-
tified you as a Communist ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your
present employment in the hospital ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You worked for the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born in New York City ; did you not ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
aforesaid statement.
Mr, jMoulder. On any other questions you wish to claim the privi-
lege under the Constitution, you may say j^ou decline to answer for
the same reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Abner Green testified before the Subversive Activi-
ties Control Board that you wei-e at one time dii-ector of the naturali-
zation aid service of the National Conuiiittee for Protection of Foreign
Born, Was he lying or telling the truth ?
Mrs, Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. IMouLDER. For the same reasons?
Mrs, Strange. For the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you, Mrs. Strange, a photostatic
copy of an article in the Daily Worker, New York, of November 13,
1944. In this article the following appears :
Dorothy Strange, press director of the Coinmunist Political Assof'iation, in
Washington, U. C, is one of several instructors in a class for members being
6222 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
conducted by the Uuited Cafeteria and Restaurant Workers Local 471 in the
Capital.
Look at that article if you please and tell us if you are the person
who was conducting those classes?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question for the stated reasons.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been associated with the National Negro
Congress ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of ar. article
appearing in the Washington Times Herald of August 3;), 1944,
in which the following appears :
Mrs. Dorothy S. Strange, Negro feminist and student of racial pjolitics, has
been named press director of the Communist Political Association of Wash-
ington, it was announced yesterday. A graduate of Miner Teachers College,
Mrs. Strange is a member of the Washington Council of the National Nejfro
Congress. ♦ * *
This is dated August 15, 1944. I lay that document before you
and ask if you are the person identified in that document?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer this question on the aforestated
reasons.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. G5," see appendix, p. 7209.)
Mr. Arens. AVliat is your education ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that she be or-
dered to answer the question as to her education.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
(Witness consults with her counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Counsel is referring to your formal education and
schooling, if any.
Mrs. Strange. You mean that I graduated from the schools in
Washington ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes ; your formal education in schools.
]Mrs. Strange. Grade school, high school, and college.
Mr. Arens. What degree do you hold in college? Do you hold
an A. B. degree ?
(Witness consults with her counsel.)
Mrs. Strange. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. How many years did you spend in college?
Mrs. Strange. Four.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Mary Stalcup
Markward ?
Mrs. Str.\nge. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
aforesaid statement.
Mr. Arens. Mary Stalcup Markward identified you as a Commu-
nist before this committee while she was under oath. Was she lying
or telling the truth ?
Mrs. Strange. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason
I stated before.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what you have done in the course of the last
several years in the line of public speaking. You seem to be a little
shy before the committee. Tell us, have you been engaged in address-
ing rallies and groups over the country ?
COMAiUNioT POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6223
Mrs. S'lHANGE. Your honor, I refuse to answer that question on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Have you as a member of the Washington Peace Mobi-
lization addressed a Youth Congress meeting in Maryhmd?
Mrs. Straxge. I refuse to answer that question for the aforesaid
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Do you speak Spanish ?
(Witness consults with her counsel.)
Mrs. Straxge. No ; I don't speak Spanish.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been in charge of an office of the American
Committee for Protection of FoieJgn Born — its Spanish- American
section, for the Spanish-speaking communities in New York City?
Mrs. Str,vxge, I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you now a photostatic copy — an article
from The Lamp (issue 70, December 1951-January 1952), the official
publication for the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, stating :
Mrs. Dorothy Strange, naturalization aid director for tlie American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born will head the office to handle the special
problems of the West Indian and Spanish-speaking communites.
Look at that article and tell us whether or not you are that individual ?
Mrs. Straxge. I still refuse to answer the question on the basis
of the fifth amendment.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 66a, b." see appendix, pp. 7210,
7211.)
Mr. Arexs. Do you know Rose Nelson ?
Mrs. Straxge. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. I lay before you a photostatic copy of sm article ap-
pearing in the Daily Worker, April 25, 1952, which says in effect,
"a speaker at a hmclieon honoring Rose Nelson will be Mrs. Dorothy
S. Strange, naturalization aid director of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born." I ask you if you are that person?
Mrs. Straxge. Your honor, I still refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this con-
cludes the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. MorLDER. Mrs. Strange, you are excused as a witness. You
may claim your witness fees with the clerk of the committee.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will stand in recess until 10 a. m.,
in the morning.
(Thereupon, at 5:10 p. m., November 12, tlie committee recessed,
to reconvene at 10 a. m., Tuesday, November 13, 1956.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
public hearing
The subcommittee met, pureuant to recess, at 10 : 15 a. m., in the
caucus room; Old House Office Building, Hon. Gordon H. Scherer,
])residing.
Committee members present : Representative Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; Donald T. Appell,
investigator.
Mr. Scherer. The committee will come to order. Counsel may
proceed.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN LATJTNER— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, you were sworn yesterday ?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your service in the Communist
Party, Mr. Lautner, did you have an opportunity to gain information
respecting the emphasis by the Communist Party in nationality groups
and the organizational structure of the Communist Party in mider-
taking to take over nationality groups ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly explain to the committee what this
structure is, and the techniques and objectives of the Communist Party
in that regard?
Mr. Lautner. It so happens that for a number of years I was as-
signed by the party on this specific phase of activity, being a member
of the nationality groups commission of the Communist Party. It
was always emphasized how important it was for the party to do
work, Communist activity, in the nationality groups. The main rea-
son projected at all times was the fact that in the basic industries of
the country, such as mining, steel and metal, auto, rubber, textile, the
largest segments of the nationality groups were occupied in these
industries. In order to successfully build the party influence in the
basic industries, it was necessary to expand the work of tlie Commu-
nist Party in these nationality groups. The Nationality Groups Com-
mission of the Connnunist Party was that subcomniittee which gave
direction, guidance, and supervision for party policies and party
activities for the central committee in the nationality groups.
The nationality groups commission was composed of leading Com-
munist Partv members who were drawn in from the various national-
I
0225
6226 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ity groups of the Communist Party, such as bureau secretaries, editors
of Communist papers in the various nationality groups. These were
the members of the Nationality (xroups Commission.
In the main it was their function to interpret the party decisions as
to the day-to-day tactical activities of the party to the^se nationality
group bureaus.
The Communist Party had a nationality group bureau in the main
nationality groups of the country. These bureaus were supervised
by the nationality groups commission. The nationality groups com-
mission also supervised and checked the newspapers, the Communist
papers in the various national groups, as to how they reflected on the
day to day tactical policies of the Communist Party.
The nationality groups com.mission sponsored conferences in various
national groups. These conferences were aimed to extend the influence
of the Communist Party in that particular national group among the
various mass organizations that were built up in these respective
nationality groups throughout the country.
For example, in the Hungarian national group, the Hungarian
bureau from time to time tried to involve many so-called outside organ-
izations who were not influenced by the Communist Party in various
types of united front activities.
Mr. Arens. What would be an example of a united front activity
in which the Communist Party would undertake to involve the na-
tionality groups?
Mr. Lautner. United front activities that were projected by the
Communist Party itself, such as a united front against fascism, miited
front against so-called repressive legislation, united fronts to build the
trade union movement in the various nationality groups. It depends
on what the party policy or party technique was at that particular
moment when these conferences were projected or these conferences
were called.
One of the biggest united fronts that I recall was during the war
that was built through the Nationality Groups Commission, or in-
itiated by the Nationality Groups Commission — the All-Slav Congress
that was built up just before the war, and during the war when it had
its biggest successes calling big mass conferences. I recall at one
of the conferences a Russian general was invited as one of the princi])al
speakers from the Soviet Union. The Nationality Groups Commis-
sion was the leader and guide for all the activities in the various na-
tionality groups in this particular phase of activity of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. On the basis of your background and experience, could
you tell the committee the number of people in nationality groups who
were under direct or indirect discipline of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Lautner. Some mass organizations were completely under the
domination of the Communist Party. Such a mass organization was
the International Workers Order, which at one time had well over
160,000 members. There were other n\ass organizations that were also
built and were dominated by the Communist Party, but in the main
it Avas a very fluid and flux situation aiming to build the widest pos-
sible contact through united-front activities where the party could
exert its influence over large segments of the so-called nationality
groups of this country.
i
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6227
Mr. Arens. Could you give us just a word description of what is
a united front in Communist Party parlance.
Mr. Lautner. A united front is a coalition around specific issues
of various trends and groups that do not think basically alike, but on
specific issues they will agree to coalesce and work together in order
to achieve certain objectives laid down on the basis of specific situa-
tions. This is what is known as a united-front approach, or a unite_d-
front activity. It does not necessarily mean that if the Communist
Party succeeds in drawing into united-front activities certain groups
that these groups will agree with the fundamental aims or objectives
or principles of the Communist Party. It only means that on a certain
line of action these groups get together, whether they know the spon-
sorship of this line of action or not. That is not the important thing.
They get together and unite in action.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, this series of hearings, as the chairman
announced yesterday, is to consider the Communist counterattack
against the various legislative and executive programs of the Gov-
ernment designed to deal with the Communist menace in this country.
Yesterday one phase of that counterattack was with respect to the
activities of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
and certain of its subsidiary organizations, and organizations which
it was able to create and penetrate.
I should like to ask you on the basis of your background and expe-
rience what part the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born played in this united-front tactic which you have just been
describing.
Mr. Lautner. As far as the Protection of Foreign Born as an or-
ganization is concerned, it was completely dominated and controlled
by the Communist Party as one of its so-called transmission belts or
bridge organizations. When the Protection of Foreign Born projects
any line of action, united- front activities involving other groups
around specific issues, that means the party initiates — the party ini-
tiates— the particular action, and the Protection of Foreign Born
was designated as an organization to carry out that activity for the
Communist Party. It may be that some of these groups that coalesce
with the Protection of Foreign Born on specific issues do not know
the source and the driving initiative that brought this coalition about
or is attempting to bring this coalition about. It may be a valid
action. Nevertheless, it is being led and directed by the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. Did tlie American Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born during the course of your experience in the (\)niniunist
Party create other organizations and penetrate other organizations
which they could use for the objectives of destroying the immigration
system ?
Mr. TjAUTner. To my knowledge from time to time temporary com-
mittees and organizations were organized at all times.
Mr. Arens. \Vliy would the Communist Party seek first of all to
j)enetrate the nationality groups in this country, and secondly, to
undertake to weaken or destroy our protective immigi'ation system?
Mr. Lautner. In the first place, the nationality groups in the eyes
of the Communist Party are a very important group in this country.
6228 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Most of the nationality groups live in big industrial and urban areas.
Nationality groups in the main work in the basic industries. In order
to achieve the basic objectives of the Communist Party, that is, to win
decisive sections of the working class who are in the basic industries,
they have to and must work with the nationality groups and extend
their influence among them.
Why are they trying to influence the changes in the basic immigra-
tion laws in the United States is quite self-evident. The Communist
Party at all times — at all times — tries to tear down any and all pro-
tective laws that give protection, that give security to the existing
order or system in the United States.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, during the course of your experience ip the
Communist Party, did you make the acquaintanceship of a person by
the name of Charles Musil ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship
with him?
Mr. Lautner. The first time I got acquainted with Charlie Musil
is when I joined the Communist Party in 1929. At that time Charlie
Musil was the treasurer of that particular Communist Party organiza-
tion which 1 joined. It was known as the Yorkville unit of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. He was the treasurer of the Communist Party
unit which I joined in 1929.
Mr. Arens. Do you see Mr. Charles Musil in the hearing room
today?
Mr. Lautner. Yes, He is sitting in the third row, second from
the outside.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party, did you know a person by the name of Irving Novick?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Please tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship with
him.
Mr. Lautner. I think it was late in 1941 when the organizational
commission of the party assigned Avro Landy and myself to re-
solve a problem that developed in the Protection of the Foreign Born
at that particular time. There was a dispute between Abner Green
and Mr. Novick, who was the party member responsible to the party,
and in charge of that particular organization at that time. We sat
down with Novick and Abner Green and listened to the differences
that they had. On the basis of tliat hearing, we found that these
differences could not be resolved, and as a result Mr. Novick was re-
moved as head of the Protection of the Foreign Born at that time.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Irving Novick as a Communist?
Mr. Lautner. At that time, yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you look around the hearing room and tell us
if you see the person whom you have just identified as a Communist?
Mr. LAurNER. Yes. He is in the third row, second from the aisle.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party, did you know a person by the name of Rose Russell ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship with her.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6229
Mr. Lautner. To my recollection the last time I saw Rose Russell
was in May 1948. The New York State leadership of the Commu-
nist Party called a meeting at 100 Fifth Avenue in the law offices of
Unger, Fleischer & Freedman.
Mr. ScHERER. What was that law office ?
Mr. Lautner. Abe Unger, Dave Freedman, and Louis Fleischer.
They were known as the party lawyers.
We had a meeting in the library room. The topic of the meeting
was the expulsion of Dr. Bella Dodd from the Communist Party, and
what measures to take U) destroy the influence of Bella Dodd, particu-
larly among attorney- ;uid in the teaching profession where she en-
joyed a lot of influence.
Mr. ScHERER. In what year was this meeting held in which you dis-
cussed the expulsion of Bella Dodd ?
Mr. Lautner. I think it was 1949. All I know is that it was just
about 2 months before the end of the school year. We had to race
against time to meet with all the schoolteacher groups in the party
to explain why the party had to expel Bella Dodd. Rose Russell,
among others, was a participant in this meeting as one of the leaders of
the party in the educational field.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, during the course of your experience in
the Communist Party, did you know a person by the name of Hugo
Gellert^
Mr. Ij.\utner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. G-e-1-l-e-r-t.
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Please tell us the nature of your acquaintanceship
with Hugo Gellert.
Mr. Lautner. I attended meetings of — extended bureau meetings —
enlarged Hungarian bureau meetings where Hugo Gellert took part.
The last time I saw Hugo Gellert is when we had a discussion and
he was telling me that he was going to Australia at that time. I
think it was somewhere in the late 1940's.
Mr. Arens. Do you identify him as a person known to you to have
been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you see him sitting in the hearing room today ^
Mr. Lautner. Yes. He is in the fourth row. I think the second
chair from the aisle.
Mr. Arens. Do you know the man sitting behind Mr. Gellert ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. That is Mr. Patterson.
Mv. Arens. Who is he?
Mr. Lautner. He was a former nieniber of the national coinniittee
of the Communist Party.
Mr Arens. What is his first name, please.
Mr, Lautner. William Patterson. Bill Patterson.
Mr. Arens. He was what?
Mr. Lautner. He was head of the CRC, the Civil Rights Con-
gress, for the Communist Party.
I\fr. Arens. How effective was the Communist Party during your
experience in the party in influencing the nationality groups oi the
country ?
Mr. Lautner. We can gage by the influence of the TWO. Numer-
ically it had about 160,000 members. It was a multinational organ-
85333— 57— pt. 1 7
6230 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ization. They had all sorts of sections in the IWO, like the Hun-
garian section, the Italian section, Croatian section, Jewish section,
and whatnot. Also, in every language, in every nationality group,
they had periodicals and new^spapers. Some of the national groups
had daily newspapers with tens of thousands of circulation.
Mr. Arens. To what extent did the Communist Party during your
experience control the foreign- language press?
Mr. Lautner, I recall I read in some party reports that the foreign-
language press controlled by the Communist Party had a readership
of well over a hundred thousand. That was contrasted with the
negligible readership of the Daily Worker. The question was posed,
how come the Daily Worker circulation and readership is so small
compared to the extremely large, way-out-of-proportion circulation
and readership of the language press controlled by the party. Just
exactly to what extent the party influence was in the nationality
groups, I cannot gage, but possibly the 1948 Progressive Party vote
would be one indication, which was close to a million. But it was
pretty close to a million in the United States.
Mr. Arens. Do you identify Rose Russell as a person known by
you to be a Communist ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes; definitely. She attended a State leadership
meeting of the Communist Party where strictly party business and
nothing else was discussed, and how to deal with the expulsion of
Bella Dodd, and what measures to take to make that expulsion stick
and be most effective. I can't imagine any reason for a nonparty
person to be in on a very confidential meeting of the State leadership.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever connected with a foreign-language pub-
lication of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What publication was that?
Mr. Lautner. That was the Uj Elore, also known as the New
Forward. Later on in 1945 and 1946 I was connected with the Hun-
garian Daily Journal.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, as the chairman announced yesterday,
the committee is conducting this series of hearings considering the
general subject of Communist political subversion whereby the party
has a counterattack against congressional committees, against anti-
Communist legislation, and anti-Communist governmental policies.
To what extent during your experience in the Communist Party did
the Communists have a concerted, organized drive, to discredit con-
gressional committees, to weaken the security provisions of the various
laws and programs designed to deal W'ith the Communist menace?
Mr. Lautner. In the first place, the Communist Party always
attacked congressional committees for various reasons. At this par-
ticular time, this is one phase of activity in which a lot of party en-
ergy and forces are diverted. The party finds itself quite isolated and
evidently tliey are making a desperate effort to gain public influence
and public support on an issue which nuiy be a very potent issue as
far as a hirge section of the American people are concerned, but
particularly the nationality groups.
From the party point of view it is a very good issue on wliich to
work and through which to work and influence elements in the na-
tionality groups, and gain new support for the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6231
Mr. ScHERER. To what particular piece of legislation are you
referring ?
Mr. Lautner. The Walter-McCarran Act. There is a lot of criti-
cism and opposition to various sections of that law.
Mr. Arens. To what extent has the Communist Party been success-
ful in engendering a false fear in the minds of the nationality groups
with respect to the security provisions of the Immigration and Na-
tionalit}'^ Act ?
Mr. Lautner. I would not know that. I would not know that
because I don't pay much attention to the nationality groups at this
particular time.
Mr. Scherer. You got out of the party in 1950. Was that your
testimony v
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. You say you do not pay much attention to national-
ity gi-oup problems.
Mr. Lautner. In the last few years.
Mr. Scherer. In the last few years.
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Have you continned to follow Communist Party
activities in the United States ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Am I correct in my recollection that recently the
Communist Party in Norway and Sweden has denounced the Rus-'
sians for their conduct in Hungary?
Mv. Lautner. The New York Times has an item in this morning's
edition where the Communist parties raised certain questions in rela-
tion to the Soviet intervention in the internal affairs of Hungary.
Mr. Scherer. What has the Communist Party of the United States
done, if anything, with reference to the recent action of Russia in
Hungary ?
Mr. Lautner. The Communist Party in the United States was
talking out of both sides of its mouth in this situation. There are
certain trends and developments within the Communist Party in the
United States. These trends and developments are in the main on
tactical issues, on techniques and not basic principles. As long as
all these trends will adhere to the basic aims and objectives and prin-
ciples of Marxism-Leninism, they are talking out of both sides of
their mouth. They are the same group, the same elements that were
exposed so many times in the last number of years through various
court procedures. There is no fundamental change in their policy.
Mr. Scherer. In the last week has there been any condemnation of
the Russian action in Hungary by the Communist Party of the United
States?
Mr. Lautner. There was one statement in the Daily Worker by the
National Committee on Hungary. That statement was evidentlj^ a
statement of the majority. Dennis took issue with that statement.
There were statements by individuals like John Gates and others per-
taining to Hungary. There were other statements in the paptu- pro
and con taking issue with statements that did ap])ear in the Daily
Woi'ker. I'ho situation is in a flux as far as unified thinking, or
coherent thinking in the Communist Party is concerned. There is a
discussion in the Communist Pai-^y at the present time dealing with
the past mistakes and shortcomings and violations of democracy and
6232 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
party procedure in the Communist Party, and in the Soviet Union.
As I stated before, as long as this group adheres to the basic principles
of Marxism-Leninism, there is no qualitative change in this group.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, how articulate is the Communist Party
in making its demands registered with the Congress and with govern-
mental agencies via these devious front organizations which we have
been discussing ?
Mr. Lautner. They are past masters in all these tricks.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us some of the tricks of the Communist
Party in having its legislative program and its policies emphasized
and brought to the attention of the Congress ?
Mr. Lautner. The Communist Party normally has a convention
every 2 years. At these conventions they discuss the situation as it
exists at the time of the convention. They draw the lessons of the
past 2 years on their activities. They project a so-called resolution
which vrill serve as a guide in the next coming period. Part of that
resolution deals with legislative activities of the party. The party
has legislative commissions, legislative directors, that in the main are
responsible for carrying out the party activities in this specific field.
Legislative conferences are called on the State level and on the na-
tional level. Various other individuals and groups are induced to
push forward the party policies as they are to be applied in the legisla-
tive field, and as they are contained in the resolution adopted by the
conventions.
Mr. Arens. How did they multiply their numerical strength via
other groups and organizations?
Mr. Lautner. By diligent work and trying to influence and get
close to as many individuals and people as possible who partially
agree on specific issues with the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Do they create other organizations in front of them-
selves for that purpose?
Mr. Lautner. Yes, always. The party needs these transmission
belts and organizations because if the party would have to do all of
these things they would be nothing but a sectarian and an ineffective
group. They need all types of organizations and groups and people
to carry out the party activities.
Mr. Arens. How would you appraise the strength or effectiveness
of the Communist conspiracy in this counterattack, which the chair-
man commented on yesterday, against the anti-Communist legislation
and the anti-Communist committees?
Mr. Lautner. How would I
Mr. Arens. How would you appraise the effectiveness and strength
of their counterattack? Is it serious?
Mr. Lautner. It is serious.
Mr. Arens. How serious is it ?
Mr. Lautner. It is serious because it has an appeal particularly to
that element among the nationality groups that would be personally
affected by the Walter-McCarran Act as it stands right now. That
segment may listen to the party activity and party program and the
voice of the party in this relation. But that effectiveness would be
negated and can be negated by exposing the source, and where it comes
from and for what reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. Doesn't the seriousness arise from the fact that the
agitation for the repeal of anti-Communist legislation is covered up
COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6233
by the Communist Party through the use of other organizations, rather
than the agitation emanating from the Communist Party itself?
Mr. Lautner. That is the subversive nature of the whole campaign.
They cannot come forward because then they would be isolated and
ineffective. They have to employ others to do their work.
Ml*. ScHEKER. That is, if I, as a Member of Congress, would receive
a bulletin or a memorandum dealing with the repeal of some anti-
Communist legislation, and that memorandum was signed by the
Communist Party, it would go in the wastebasket without my even
looking at it.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. But a memorandum coming from an organization
that has been set up, dominated and controlled by the Communist
Party, but bears a seemingly respectable name, like the name of the
organization we referred to yesterday — I can't remember the name —
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest — a memorandum
coming to me from such an organization would receive considerable
attention and carry some weight merely because the name appeared
to be a sound and attractive name.
Mr. Lautner. But that would be only a temporary situation.
Mr. ScHERER. Until I learned that that organization had been set
up, controlled, and dominated by the Communists.
Mr. Lautner. In a hearing like this.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the purpose of these hearings, to show that
such organizations are set up for that purpose.
Mr. Lautner. A hearing like this is the best forum to show the
source and who are the ones that are involved in this type of activity.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, we have no further questions of Mr.
Lautner at this time. I respectfully suggest we may want to take
a short recess.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions except to say to Mr.
Lautner, that the committee is deeply grateful for the valuable in-
formation that he has given the Congress. The committee wishes to
thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Scherer. The committee will recess for 10 minutes.
{ Short recess. )
Present following the recess. Representatives Morgan M. Moulder
(presiding) and Gordon H. Scherer.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will come to order, please.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Charles Musil, will you please come forward. Re-
main standing while the chairman administers the oath.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Musil. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CHAELES MUSIL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Musil. My name is Charles Musil, 3417 East 64th Street, New
York. I am a newspaperman.
6234 COMJMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing, today, Mr. Musil, in response to a
subpena wliich was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Musil. Yes.
Mr. Arens, Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr, Musil, Yes,
Mr, Arens, Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr, Needleman. Isidore Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York,
N, Y.
Mr. Arens, What is the establishment with which you are presently
identified ?
Mr, Musil. I am a newspaperman.
Mr. Arens. For what newspaper do you work ?
Mr. Musil. I decline on the ground of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer for what reason?
Mr, Musil, On the ground of the fifth amendment,
Mr. Arens. How long have you been employed at the newspaper
where you are presently engaged ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil, I decline for the same reason previously stated.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to the
employment that you have at the present time ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil, I decline for the same reason previously stated,
Mr, Arens, Do you know a man by the name of John Lautner ?
Mr. Musil. The gentleman who was up here today ?
Mr. Arens, Yes.
Mr, Musil, Yes ; I saw him up here today.
Mr, Arens, Where did you last see him?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated,
Mr. Arens. Just a little while ago Mr. Lautner took an oath before
this committee and said that while he was a member of the Communist
Party he knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Lautner lying or was
he telling the truth ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason previously stated.
Mr. Arens, Do you work for Eussky Golos ?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born?
Mr. Musil. Czechoslovakia.
Mr. Arens. When.
Mr. Musil. December 19, 1900.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Musil, 1921.
Mr. Arens. And are you naturalized ?
Mr. Musil. Yes.
Mr. Arens, When were you naturalized ?
Mr. Musil. 1927.
Mr. Arens. At the time you were naturalized were you a member
of the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6235
Mr. Arens. Did you ever know a man by the name of Vladimir
Houdek?
Mr. MusiL.. What is the name, please ?
Mr. Arens. V-1-a-d-i-m-i-r H-o-u-d-e-k.
Mr. MusiL. To my knowledge I don't know. I couldn't answer yes
or no.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Vrba, who used to
be a commercial attache and head of the Czeclioslovakian nationals at-
tached to the consulate in New York City ?
Mr. MusiL. No.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Matthew Cvetic ?
Mr. MusiL. I saw the name in the papers.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him in any other way ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. MusiL. I didn't hear the question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been with the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason stated before.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, Mr. Musil, a letterhead of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, New York City,
containing certain typewritten or mimeographed language, in which
appears, under the list of officers, "Treasurer, Charles Musil," and I
ask if you are he ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 67," see appendix, p. 7212.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not you are or have been treasurer of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born you would be sup-
plying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?
Mr. Musil. It may.
Mr. Scherer. AVhat is the answer ?
Mr. Musil. It may.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a leaflet of the
American Slav Congress, September, 1946, containing a list of a num-
ber of persons who sent greetings to the Third American Slav Con-
gress, including Charles Musil, vice president, American Slav Con-
gress of Greater New York. Please look at that, sir, and tell us
whether or not you are the Charles Musil alluded to in that document ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 68," see appendix, p. 7213.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the sam.e reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of a club which had
something to do with the United Nations?
(The witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I don't think so.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the U. N. Club of
the Communist Political Association ? If you haven't just deny it.
Mr. Musil. I didn't get the question.
6236 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the executive com-
mittee of the U. N. Club of the Communist Political Association?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Jennie Lenhart ?
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know or have you known Zoltan Sxucky?
Mr. MusiL. Could I see the name please ?
Mr. Arens. S-x-u-c-k-y, Zoltan.
Mr. MusiL. No.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was the year in which you finished your formal
education and began work here in the United States ?
Mr. MusiL. I began work in 1921.
Mr. Arens. Where did you work?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I couldn't tell you the name of the places where I was
working.
Mr. Arens. Give us just
Mr. MusiL. It is 35 years ago.
Mr. Arens. What was the first place in which you were employed,
do you recall the nature of the worK ?
Mr. MusiL. It was a cafeteria, and I was working as a dishwasher.
Mr. Arens. What was your next assignment?
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Counsel, I cannot hear half of what the witness
says.
^Ir. MusiL. I was working in a cafeteria as a dishwasher.
Mr. Arens. Where was your next job?
lyir. MusiL. In a machine shop, I think it was. I am not correct on
this.
Mr. Needleman. So that the record won't be confusing to the wit-
ness, may it be understood that he is not necessarily giving them in
consecutive order, so that there will be no question of perjury, and he
is going to try to recollect, but he may skip a job here and there.
Mr. Arens. We understand, and we want his principal employment.
Mr. Moulder. He is testifying to his employment according to his
best recollection.
Mr. Arens. Give us your next job, please ?
Mr. MusiL. I was working as a baker for about 15 years, or 16, or
something like that.
Mr. Arens. That would get us up to around 1940, wouldn't it?
Mr. MusiL. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And what was your next job in 1940 ?
Mr. Mtjsil. I decline for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told us the employment
which you had in 1940, you would be supplying information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. MusiL. It may.
Mr. Scherer. Did you say it might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ? When did you come to this country ?
Mr. MusiL. 1921
Mr. Scherer. And you were naturalized when?
Mr. MusiL. In 1927.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Mr. MusiL. I decline to answer for the grounds previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6237
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Musil, according to documents which have
already been introduced into this record, there was a National Confer-
ence to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law held in Chicago in 1953.
According to these documents, the treasurer of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, Mr. Musil, was one of those
present and one of those who gave a report and made an appeal for
funds. Do vou recall being at that conference in Chicago in 1953?
(See exhibit V, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reasons as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in your life towards advocating
changes of any kind in legislation ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr, Arens. Have you engaged in activities designed to influence
legislation ?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Musil. What is that? I don't know, what is that?
Mr. Arens. Are you registered with the United States Congress as
a lobbyist ?
Mr. Musil. No.
Mr. Arens. Wliere were you in December of 1955, do you recall ?
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend a conference in December of 1955 in
Detroit?
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been chairman of a Slovak group of any
kind?
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Don't you remember whether or not you were in Detroit
in 1955 ? That was just last year.
Mr. Musil. I don't know.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. Maybe I was up there, but I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall any trips you made in 1955 last year?
Mr. Musil. In 1955?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. It is 11 months ago.
Mr. Musil. Maybe I did.
Mr. Scherer. Were you ever in Detroit ?
Mr. Musil. Yes, I was in Detroit.
Mr. Scherer. Were you in Detroit last year ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. When were you last in Detroit ?
Mr. Musil. I don't remember. On the date, I don't recall these
dates.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was the nature of your business when you were
in Detroit the last time ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you in Detroit on behalf of the work of the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
6238 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, Mr. Musil, a document which is
a letterhead of the 23d Annual National Conference of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, held in Detroit, Mich.,
December of 1955, setting forth in this letter and accompanying docu-
ments a program of activity of this 23d annual national conference.
Would you kindly look at that material which I have just laid before
you, and tell this committee whether or not you were in attendance in
that conference?
(Document marked "Exhibit VII," see appendix, pp. 8406-84:39.)
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. You say you were naturalized in 1927 ?
Mr. Musil. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time that you became a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Musil. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you asked at the time you were naturalized
whether you were a member of the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. LIusiL. I don't know. It was in 1927 and I don't have any
recollection of any questions asked at that time.
Mr. ScHERER. If you had been asked that question, what would
your answer have been ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. MusiL. I decline for the same reason as previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.
]Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You may claim your at-
tendance fees by signing a voucher with the clerk.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Irving Novick, would you please come forward?
Please remain standing wliile the chairman administers an oath to
you.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. NoviCK. I do.
TESTIMONY OF lEVING HOVICK; xlCCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
DAVID COEB
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. NovicK. My name is Irving Novick, and I live at 2526 Yates
Avenue, Bronx, N. Y. I have an office as an immigration consultant
at 11 West 42d Street.
Mr. Scherer. I cannot hear the witness.
Mr. No\t:ck. I am sorry.
Mr. Scherer. What did you say, sir ?
Mr. NovicK. Tlie last part, you mean?
Mr. Scherer. I got as far as you lived on Yates Avenue, in the
Bronx, N. Y.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6239
Mr. NovicK. I have an office as an immigration consultant at 11
West 42d Street, New York.
Mr. Arens. What is the organization ?
Mr. ScHERER. I still didn't understand.
Mr. Arens. He said he has an office as an immigration consultant.
Are you an attorney ?
Mr. NoviCK. No, I am not an attorney, but I was admitted to prac-
tice before the Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. Are you now admitted to practice before the Immi-
gration Service?
Mr. NovicK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Mr. NovicK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. No^^;cK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself ?
Mr. Cobb. My name is David Cobb. I am an attorney in Washing-
ton, and my office address is at 1822 Jefferson Place.
Mr. Arens. What is the name of the organization with which you
are affiliated?
Mr. NoviCK. Well, I am not affiliated with any organization as far
as my work is concerned. However, I have a trade name, Immigrants
Technical Aid Bureau.
Mr. Scherer. I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. He says he has a trade name.
Mr. Scherer. Immigrants Technical Aid Bureau.
Mr. Arens. How long have you had that trade name ?
Mr. NovicK. Since I opened the office. I believe the exact date is
January 23, 1942.
Mr. Arens. Do you advise people with reference to immigration
matters ?
Mr. NoviCK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Do you represent people before the Immigration and
Naturalization Service?
Mr. NovicK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you please stand up?
Mr. Novick, a little while ago, Mr, Lautner took an oath before this
committee and testified that he had been a member of the Communist
Party and while he was a member of the Communist Party he knew
you as a Communist. Look at Mr. Lautner and tell us whether or
not he was lying or telling the truth.
Mr. Novick. Well, sir I listened to Mr. Lautner's testimony, and
he did not state that he knew me as a Communist. I believe what he
said was that he saw me in places in which he presumed I was a Com-
munist.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you return to the stand, then, so
that we can get this record clear, please ?
Mr. Scherer. Before we get Mr. Lautner, let us put the question :
Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. No\^CK. I am afraid I will have to decline to answer this ques-
tion on the grounds of the first amendment as it is the privilege of any-
6240 CORIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
one to have his own opinions, and if this is not sufficient I will invoke
the fifth amendment for fear of self-incrimination.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Novick, look at Mr. Lautner; did you ever know
him before?
Mr. No^^[CK. I have to explain this, f^entlemen, that my memory for
faces is not good. Maybe for the reason that I see a lot of people, and
maybe just a defect naturally, but I do remember seeing Mr. Lautner
and meeting him at Ellis Island, a couple of years, or 2 or 3 years ago.
He stopped me, and called me by name, and he called to my attention
that he knows me. When I stated that I don't recollect seeing him or
knowing him he pointed out that I met him at a Communist meeting
concerning the work of the American Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born. I told him then that I have attended many meet-
ings in connection with the work of the American Committee, and it
is possible even that he could have placed me before in a Communist
meeting, but I did not recall, nor do I recall now, meeting him at any
Communist meeting.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with the [American]
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK, That is correct.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you identified with the [Ameri-
can] Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NovicK. In different positions, sir. I was acting secretary at
one time, and I was naturalization aid director most of the time.
Mr. Arens. What was the period of your service with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NovicK. It ended at the end of 1941. To make it exactly, maybe
it was January of 1942. It began somewhere in the early 1930's, either
1930 or 1933 or 1934.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any recollection of serving in any closed
party meetings with Mr. John Lautner?
Mr. NoviCK. As I mentioned before, I don't recall.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever attend any closed party meetings ?
Mr. NovicK. It could be that I attended meetings in connection with
the work of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. I did not ask you that question. My question was,
Did you ever attend any closed party meetings, meetings at which no
one was admitted except Commmiists?
Mr. Novick. I would decline to answer this question.
Mr. Scherer. I don't think we even need to ask Mr. Lautner again;
his testimony is clear.
Mr. Arens. There might be — in view of the observations of the wit-
ness, there might be some ambiguity.
Mr. Scherer. We just gave this man an opportunity to say whether
Mr. Lautner's testimony was correct, when I asked him whether he
was a member of the Communist Party, and he refuses to say whether
he was or was not.
TESTIMONY OP JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Do you have any doubt that this man, Mr. Novick, was
to your certain knowledge a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. There is no doubt in my mind.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6241
Mr. Moulder. May I piii*siie that ? That is calling for a conclusion
on 3'oiir part. Have you stated previously in your testimony the rea-
sons why ?
Mr. Lautxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. He told of the circumstances of the relationship.
Mr. Cobb. May I ask Mr. Lautner a question ?
Mr. Arexs. Cross examination isn't permitted.
Mr. Moulder. What is your question ?
Mr. Cobb. As of what time are you talking that you have a belief ?
Mr. Molder. I will ask the question.
Mr. Lautner. The last incident with Mr. Novick happened, as he
pointed out, either in December of 1941 or Januarj' of 1942, and there
were four of us at the meeting — you, Mr. Novick, and Mr. Greene and
Mr. Landy and mj'self , and we tried to resolve the conflict that existed
between you and Abner Green in the protection of the foreign born at
that time, and it was resolved not in your favor because you were
removed as acting secretary at that time. It should stand out in your
mind because it is one of the highlights in your life.
Mr. Moulder. Very well.
TESTIMONY OF IRVING NOVICK— Eesumed
]Mr. Moulder. Now, Mr. Novick, you have heard Mr. Lautner's testi-
mony and the statement he just made, with which you are now con-
fronted. Do you wish to deny or affirm it ?
^fr. No^^CK. I could only say this, that I don't have any liighlights
that I remember in that respect. I don't recall any major conflicts
with Mr. Green. I do not recall tliis particular meeting, although it
is possible that I met mider circumstances described by the gentleman,
impressing him the way it did. I met or I would meet with anyone
in connection with the work of the American Committee, and I did not
ask any questions who they were.
Mr. Scherer. The pertinent question is, Did Mr. Lautner tell this
committee an untruth just a minute ago, when he said that you were a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I would decline to answer that question.
IVIr. Arexs. Now, Mr. Novick, when you were with the [American]
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, were you at any time act-
ing secretary ?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you noAv a photostatic copy of a letter dated
January 5, 1940, signed by Irving Novick and written on the letter-
head of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. It
is addressed to the American Civil Liberties Union and acknowledges
the receipt of $25. Kindly look at that signature and tell us whether
it is ^our signature and if it is a true and authentic reproduction of the
original ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 69," see appendix, p. 7214.)
Mr. NovicK. Yes ; this is my signature and yes ; it appears correct.
Mr. Cobb. May I read that'letter?
Mr. Arexs. We are running the committee, sir. Are you con-
versant with the original
Mr. Cobb. Mr. Congressman, he iust handed the witness a letter, and
now lie is refusing to let me see the letter.
6242 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
^Ir. Arexs, I am undertaking to interrogate witness about the
letter. I just had it identified, and I expect to ask liim some questions
about it.
Mr. Moulder. Did the witness identify it ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Cobb. He hasn't permitted the counsel to see the letter.
Mr. Moulder. I think it is proper to let him see it.
Mr. Cobb. Normal procedure is, you let the counsel see the letter.
Mr. Moulder. That is right.
(The letter was shown to counsel.)
Mr. Arens. This letter which you have identified is dated January
3940, is it not?
Mr. NovicK. That is right.
Mr. Arens. When did you actually become associated with the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NovicK. I believe in the early 1930's, either 1933 or 1934.
Mr. Arens. Was the organization then known as the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK. When I came to the organization, I was one of the
few that with my coming transformed some interested individuals into
the organization which became known as the American Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your affiliation with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, tell us the branch organ-
izations which the parent organized?
Mr. NoviCK. Well, the American Committee for Protection of the
Foreign Bom was formed out of interested individuals, and I am
sorry, but I don't understand the question.
Mr. Arens. Did it have a subsidiary or companion organization in
New York City, as the New York City Committee for the Protection
of the Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK. No ; it was organized as an American Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Bom, for the entire Nation.
Mr. Arens, What was its relationship with the International Labor
Defense ?
Mr. NoviCK. Prior to our organizing the American Committee for
the Protection of the Foreign Born, people who were eligible for
deportation were handled by the International Labor Defense and
by the American Civil Liberties Union. It was to the interest, I
believe, of the American Civil Liberties Union and similar organi-
zations, to have an organization like this created because it was a
strain on their finances and there was a lot of work involved and
they couldn't handle it by themselves,
Mr. Arens. During the period of your service with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, did the organization
create other organizations such as the California Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born, or Midwest Committee and the like?
Mr. NoviCK. No, sir, not to my recollection.
Mr. Arens, Who replaced you as naturalization aid director of
the American Committee ?
Mr. NoviCK. The American Committee for the Protection of the
Foreign Born had an executive board, and they ai'e the ones Avho
replaced me.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6243
Mr. Abens. Who replaced you, who was your successor ?
Mr. NovicK. I really don't know. I am m no position. When I
left the organization I believe Mr. Abner Green took my position.
]\Ir. Arens. Do you know whether or not Abner Green Avas a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I would decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in closed party meetings with Abner
Green ?
Mr. NovicK. As I mentioned before, for the program of the Ameri-
can Committee, people might place me almost any place but in order
not to draw a wrong i ,;iiclusion, I must refrain from answering this
question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. That isn't the test — in order that we might not draw
any wrong conclusions. The test is whether he honestly believes in
good faith that the answer to the question might lead to criminal
prosecution.
Mr. NovicK. It is a complicated question, and I would rather not
answer it.
Mr. SciiERER. Then I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question which he is refusing to answer on the ground it is compli-
cated.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer. You have a right,
of course, to claim the privilege of the fifth amendment if you wish
to do so.
Mr. NovicK. I refuse to answer on the ground that it might serve
to incriminate me,
Mr. Arens. Was Marjorie Spector the person who took your place
at the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. NovicK. It could be. I want to make clear that I am in no
position to tell this committee Avho took my place after I left. After
all, I wasn't there. Marjorie Spector worked with me, and slie was
my assistant.
Mr. Arens. At the American Committee ?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes, and it is possible that she did take my place. I
have no way of knowing that.
Mr. Arens. Did you know whether or not Marjorie Spector was a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I do not know whether she was a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document entitled, "Program of the
Greater New York Emergency Conference on Inalienable Rights,
Monday, February 12, 1040." According to that document you were
a speaker on the Foreign Born Panel. Do you have a recollection of
that panel ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 70a-c," see appendix, pp. 7215-
7217.)
Mr. NovicK. I remember attending this conference and I v/as en-
gaged in calling this conference. There were several panels and I
tried to attend as many panels as I could. I bolicse at that time I
miiiiit have been acting secretary at that time.
Mr. Arens. Woukl you kindly look at the ])rogram, the section
marked "Panel 1 — Foreign Born" in which you are listed as a partici-
pant, and tell this committee how many of the people who were on the
Foreign liorii Panel of this conference were to your knowledge mem-
bers (-f the Communist Party '^
6244 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. NovicK. This is the panel, is it?
Mr, Arens. Yes.
Mr. NovicK. I have no knowledge of any of these people, as to their
political affiliations.
Mr. Arens. Do you have knowledge as to whether or not any of
them were Communists?
Mr. NovicK. I have no knowledge.
Mr. ScHERER. Just pardon me. What committee was that ?
Mr. Arens. It is a conference which was set up in 1940, according
to the letterhead.
Mr. Scherer. Were the participants on that committee supposed to
have been individuals who were foreign born or was it merely a com-
mittee entitled "Foreign Born" ?
Mr. Arens. Just a panel entitled "Foreign Born."
Mr. Moulder. How many were on the panel ?
Mr. Arens. Nine or ten.
Mr. Moulder. How many did you know ?
Mr. NovicK. I knew them by reputation.
Mr. Moulder. Did you know all of them ?
Mr. NoviCK. Most of them, but I don't know as to their political
affiliations.
Mr. Moulder. How did you know them ?
Mr. NovicK. Well, let us take Frank Kingdon. He is a radio com-
mentator, and each one is a prominent public figure, and I would know
many by reputation. But I don't know, as a matter of fact, I don't
know him personally well enough to know anything about him.
Mr. Scherer. Were you asked where you weie born ? I don't recall.
Mr. NovicK. Not yet.
Mr. Scherer. Where were you born ?
Mr. NoviCK. I was born in Poland.
Mr. Scherer. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. NovrcK. In the middle of 1923.
Mr. Scherer. And when were you naturalized ?
Mr. NovicK. Approximately in 1930.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you were naturalized ?
Mr. NovicK. As I declined before to answer any question prior to
my connection with the American Committee, I will decline now for
the reason of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. When you were naturalized, were you asked whether
or not you were a member of the Communist Party at that time ?
Mr. NovicK. T am familiar with the naturalization procedure and
I know that in 1930 no one was asked as to membership in the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Scherer. Now, let us go a little further. "When were you
admitted to practice before the Bureau of Immigration and
Naturalization?
Mr. NovicK. Approximately in 1945.
Mr. Scherer. Were you asked at that time whether you were a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes; I was.
Mr. Scherer. What Avas your answer?
Mr. NovicK. No.
Mr. Scherer. Did you tell the truth at that time?
Mr. NovicK. I did.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6245
Mr. ScHERER. Were you a member of the Commmiist Party before
you made your application for appointment ?
Mr. NovicK. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since you were granted permission to practice before the Bureau of
Immigration and Naturalization?
Mr. XovicK. In my memory now or since, you mean ?
Mr. ScHERER. Since that date?
Mr. NovicK. The answer is "No."
Mr. ScTiERER. You have not been a member since you were
admitted ?
Mr. NovTCK. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?
JNIr. NovTCK. No; I am not under any discipline of the Communist
Party or otherwise.
Mr. SciiERER. How soon before you were admitted to practice
before the Bureau of Immigi-ation and Naturalization did you drop
your membership in the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I at no time stated here that I was a member of the
Communist Party, but I will decline to answer any question on the
basis of the fifth amendment, prior to January of 1942.
Mr. ScHERER. Isn't it a fact then, that you resigned from the Com-
munist Party so that in your application for permission to practice
before the Bureau of Immigration and Naturalization, you could
answer the question as to whether or not vou were a member of the
Communist Party, "No." Isn't that the fact?
Mr. NovicK. If I understand your question, you state that
Mr. ScHERER. Isn't it a fact that you resigned from the Communist
Party so that in filling out your application for admission to practice
before the Bureau of Immigration and Naturalization, you could
answer that question as to membership in the Communist Party,
"No"?
Mr. NovTCK. The answer is "No."
Mr. Arens. You stated a few minutes ago, Mr. Novick
Mr. SciiERER. Just a moment. I didn't finish with the witness.
You say that you were not a member of the Communist Party in
1945. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1944 ?
Mr. NoviCK. No.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member in 1943?
Mr. NoviCK. No.
Mr. SciiERER. In 1942?
Mr. NoviCK. No.
Mr. Scherer. In 1940?
JVIr. Novick. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. You stated a few minutes ago that while you were witli
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born there were
no other subsidiary companion organizations, such as a Midwest com-
mittee or an Ohio'Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Boris.
Mr. No\T[CK. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of tlie Cleveland
Plain Dealer of Monday, February 3. 1941, and invite your nttention
to an article which reads in part as follows :
An extensive program for the prevention of the mistreatment of foreij^ii born
was drafted by 150 delegates and observers who attended an organization meet-
85383— 57— pt. 1 8
6246 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ing of the Ohio Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Boru yesterday
afternoon at the City Club Auditorium.
I lay that before you and ask you if that would refresh your recol-
lection with reference to a collateral or subsidiary organization of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. NoviCK. I am sorry sir, but I have no recollection or any knowl-
edge that such organization existed,
Mr. Arens. Would it help your recollection if I would lay before
you a photostatic copy of the Cleveland Plain Dealer for Saturday,
January 18, 1941, in which charges appear that the Ohio Provisional
Committee of the American Committee for the Protection of the For-
eign Born is Communist controlled. Would you kindly look at that
article and see whether that refreshes your recollection ?
Mr. NovrcK. Since I have no knowledge of the first one, or the ex-
istence of the organization, I don't see how I would have any knowl-
edge as to its affiliation.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified or associated with the
American Slav Congress ?
Mr. NovicK. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Have you advertised in the bulletins of the American
Slav Congress ?
Mr. NovicK. To the best of my recollection, I once gave a man $5,
and this man stated that he was collecting money for advertisements
or he was very anxious to put my name in some magazine, and it
might have been the Yugoslav Congress.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a leaflet of the American Slav Con-
gress—Rally To Win the Peace, September 20, 21, 22, 1946— in which
appears Greetings from the Immigrants Technical Aid Bureau, and I
ask you if that is the advertisement which you caused to be printed in
that publication?
Mr. NoviCK. My name and trade name appears here correctly.
However, I liave no knowledge or I still don't know what sort of a
greeting the publication is.
Mr. Arens. While you were with the [^Vmerican] Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, did you report to persons who were known
by you to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. NovicK. I reported to no one.
Mr. Arens. Who was your immediate superior?
Mr. NoviCK. The executive board of the American Committee for
the Protection of the Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Who was on that board ?
Mr. NoviCK. I could not recall their names now, because it was sub-
ject to change. There were about 10 or 12 members. The names were
always published.
Mr. Arens. Was Abner Green on the board ?
Mr. NoviCK, I could not recall. He might have been. I do not
remember.
Mr. Arens. Were you present in the formation and did you partici-
pate in the formation of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. NoviCK. Yes; I contributed quite a bit to its formation.
Mr. Arens. And who joined with you in the formulation of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6247
Mr. NovicK. Well, it is hard to remember all of the people, but I
could remember Roger Baldwin, or people of his category.
Mr. Arens. How many people, to your knowledge, who joined in
the formation of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born were Communists?
Mr. NoviCK. Well sir, in those days, no one asked for an identifica-
tion, and I would be in no position to know, the people I mingled with,
who was a Communist or who was not.
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. ScHERER. I have one more question to ask the witness, Mr.
Chairman, and I am not ready to ask it at this moment however.
Mr. ]\IouLDER. You wish to have the witness recalled ?
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. You will remain in the hearing room, because we
will recall you as a witness.
Mr. Arens. I will call Mr. Carl Marzani.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Marzani. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CARL MARZANI
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Marzani. My name is Carl Marzani, and I live at 310 West
87th Street, Manhattan, New York City. With regard to my occu-
pation I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amendment, the
fifth amendment, my privilege of protection, and the ninth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliere is your occupation headquartered ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the same basis as before.
Mr. Arens. In what State is it located ?
Mr. Makzani. I decline to answer on the same basis as before.
Mr. Arens. I suggest that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer the last question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing in response to a subpena served
upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Mr."^ Marzani. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
the ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Mr. MLvrzani. Eome, Italy.
Mr. Arens. When?
Mr. Marzani. 1912.
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. :^L\RZANI. In 1924.
Mr. Arens. And were vou admitted for permanent residence in
1924?
6248 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Marzani. I was a child, of course, 12 years old.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever become naturalized ?
Mr. Marzani. Yes.
Mr. Arens. When were you naturalized ?
Mr. Marzani. I became a citizen through derivative citizenship
in 1929.
Mr. Arens. Then you were not naturalized by a court proceeding
but by derivation from your father.
Mr. Marzani. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Tell us just a word please, about your early education.
Mr. Marzani. Well, I went to grammar school and high school in
the United States and to Williams College in the United States and
Oxford University.
Mr. Arens. When did you attend Oxford ?
Mr. Marzani. In 1937 and 1938, 1 guess it was.
Mr. Arens. Were you a Rhodes scholar ?
Mr. Marzani. I was a Moody fellow. That is spelled with a capi-
tal M.
Mr. Arens. Was that a religious foundation ?
Mr. Marzani. No.
Mr. Arens. What was the foundation ?
Mr. Marzani. It was a fellowship from Williams College.
Mr. Arens. When did you actually graduate from Oxford'^ Was
that in 1938 ?
Mr. Marzani. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. What degree did you obtain ?
Mr. Marzani. A. B., in economics.
Mr. Arens. Now, please tell us what your occupation was as soon
as 3^ou received your degree in economics from Oxford.
Mr. Marzani, Let me see, I guess I was on relief.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were at Oxford studying mider this fellowship ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. How long were were you on relief after you concluded
your studies at Oxford ?
Mr. Marzani. I forget, some period of time, several months.
Mr. Arens. Were you with the WPA Writer's Project while you
were on relief ?
Mr. Marzani. No, I was not.
Mr. Arens. On what project were you ?
Mr. Marzani. I really do not recall what the name of it was.
Mr. Arens. What was tlie next occupation in wliich you were
engaged after you disestablished yourself from relief?
Mr. Marzani. I taught at New York University.
Mr. Arens. How long did you teach there ?
Mr. Marzani. A couple of years.
Mr. Arens. When was the period of your teaching ?
Mr. Marzani. It must have been 1941, 1940-41, I guess it was.
Mr. Scherer. What is this witness' occupation now?
Mr. Arens. He refused to tell us.
Mr. Scherer. What is our information?
Mr. Arens. He is presently, according to our information, one of
tlie officers of an organization Imown as Presentations, Inc. or with a
cojvimunist political subversion 6249
publishing firm which had some connection with this corporation
loiown as Presentations, Inc.
Mr. ScHERER. Is that information correct, Witness?
Mr. Arens. Are you with a publishing firm at the present time?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. It will not be necessary for you to raise your voice.
Mr. Marzani. You have asked four times and I tell you four times.
Mr. Scherer. Do you feel that to answer
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Sciierer. You did not hear my question. Do you feel that
to answer the question as to your present occupation might lead to
a criminal prosecution ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my
question.
Mr. Marzani. My answer speaks for itself. I would not use the
fifth if I did not think so.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Marzani. Of course I do.
Mr. Scherer. You feel that it would ?
Mr. Marzani. Of course I do.
Mr. Scherer. The courts require that we ask you.
Mr. Moulder. That is all. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document
entitled "Union Films, Carl Marzani, Director," dated March 11,
1948, and ask you if you were the director of Union Films in 1948.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 71," see appendix, p. 7218.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in prison ?
Mr. Marzani. Yes ; as a matter of public record.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did you serve in prison ?
Mr. Marzani. From 1949 to 1950 and a part of 1951 and may I say,
by the way, sir, Mr. Chairman, that one of the reasons why I behave
with such little cooperation to the committee is that I have had a very,
very interesting and salutary experience, and I was framed once and
I spent 3 years in jail on precisely associated questions and I refuse to
do it again. I have had it, and I am not going to let anybody do it
again, including Mr. Arens.
Mr. Scherer. What was the charge for which you say you were
framed ?
Mr. Marzani. It was false statement and I say "framed" ad-
visedly. It was false statement with no witnesses. The Supreme
Court split 4 to 4 upon this question twice and there was a re-
hearing and I spent 3 years in jail, with a wife with multiple
sclerosis. There was a parole signed by General Donovan, my for-
mer boss in the OSS, and signed by Einstein, and signed by leading
people in the United States. I spent the whole time, and inciden-
tally, one of my cellmates was a Mr. J. Parnell Thomas, former
chairman of this committee.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
6250 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. You were convicted of perjury?
Mr. Marzani. I was not convicted of perjury. It was a false state-
ment. This was the "Hot Oil' case. You remember the oil case;
you remember that.
Mr. ScHERER. It was a false statement? What statement was
that? I did not know that you could go to prison for a false
statement.
Mr. Marzani. I did not either, but I did. It was not perjury.
They could not get a perjury charge because it was not true.
Mr. Arens. \Vnen were you released from jail?
Mr. Marzani. July of 1951.
Mr. Arens. You were released in July of 1951 !
Mr. Marzani. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Since your release from jail were you in attendance
and were you a speaker at a mass meeting To Protest the Walter-
McCarran Law and Free the Ellis Island Seven in New York City
on December 8, 1952?
Mr. Marzani. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. I will lay before you a photostatic copy of an ad-
vertisement in the Daily Worker (December 8, 1952) in which it
is set forth that such a rally was held and you were such a speaker.
Were you there ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 72," see appendix, p. 7219.)
Mr. Marzani. I refuse to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of another docu-
ment, signed "Carl Marzani," addressed "Dear Friend" with refer-
ence to Steve Nelson. Who was Steve Nelson?
Mr. Marzani. He is not dead.
Mr. Arens. Who is he ?
Mr. Marzax", He is a man.
Mr. Arens. Who else is he f
Mr. Marzani. What do you mean, what else?
Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with
Steve Nelson ?
Mr. Marzani. First, fifth, and ninth, naturally.
Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of those.
Mr. Arens, After your release from jail did you send this letter,
dated December 30, 1952, signed "Carl Marzani", and addressed "Dear
Friend", with reference to assistance for Steve Nelson ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 73," see appendix, p. 7220.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Is that your signature at the bottom of that letter?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. You will, of course, Mr. Marzani, be paid a witness fee
for your appearance here today.
Mr. Marzani. Two days.
Mr. Arens. For these 2 days.
Mr. Marzani. Incidentally, may I say at this point that I really
do resent, and I am just as a person, bemg kept here 2 days having
to listen to Mr. Roosevelt, whose knowledge of immigration laws I
felt was kind of sketchy, to a man named Lautner, paid by my taxes
COMJMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6251
as a paid informer, while I am wasting my time. I am sure you
gentlemen are not wasting your time but I feel I am wasting mine.
Mr. ScHERER. Was there anything that Lautner said
Mr. Marzani. I did not listen to him. I walked out.
Mr. ScHERER. Was there anything he said
Mr. Marzani. I wasted my time waiting until he got through.
Mr. ScHERER. Will you wait until I ask the question ?
Mr. Marzani. I beg your pardon.
Mr. SoHERER. Was there anj^thing Mr. Lautner said that was
untrue ?
Mr. IMarzani. I told you I did not hear him and I walked out.
Mr. Arens. You said that Mr. Roosevelt did not know what he was
talking about on immigration. What has been your experience in the
field of immigration ?
Mr. Marzani. Not very much.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what has been your experience in the field of
immigration.
My. Marzani. Very little.
Mr. Arens. Have you made speeches on immigration matters?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified Avith the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Marzani, will you kindly sign your name at the
appropriate place there, as the payee?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Moulder. Have the record show what he is signing.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the photo-
static copy of this payee voucher be incorporatecl in the record so that
the signature on it may be compared with exhibit No. 73. Then
it will be processed so the witness may receive his pay.
Mr. Moulder. It is so ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. Y4," see appendix, p. 7221.)
Mr. Akens. Now, Mr. Marzani, I lay before you a document dated
January 1953 (Daily Worker, January 21, 1953), which was consider-
ably after j^ou were released from jail, in which a number of artists
are alleged to have urged clemency for the Rosenbergs and I ask you
if this is a true and correct recitation of the facts with reference to
your participation in that movement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 75,'' see appendix, p. 7222.)
Mr. ]VL\RZANi. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth.
Mr. Arens. Now, in view of your criticism of Mr. Roosevelt's knowl-
edge of the immigration laws, I would like to ask if you ever had an
opportunity to make a speech on that subject?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, Mr. Marzani, a duplicate of the
summary proceedings of the Michigan Conference to Repeal the Wal-
ter-McCarran Law and Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Ameri-
cans. The main speaker was Mr. Carl Marzani, according to this
exhibit, and the meeting was held in Detroit on November 22, 1953.
Kindly look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not that refreshes
6252 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
your recollection and whether you were the main speaker in that
session on immigration matters, that is, after your release from jail.
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. I observe that in this document you are quoted as saying,
"Your fight to repeal the Walter-McCarran law is an important part
of this broad movement," said Marzani. "The wheel has turned, the
American people are on the march. McCarthy ism will be defeated."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 76a-g," see appendix, pp. 7222-
7226.)
Mr. Marzani. What is that?
Mr. Areks. "Defeated." Did you make this statement!
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth.
Mr. Arbns. I now lay before you a photostatic copy of the Daily
Worker, New York, Wednesday, February 4, 1953, in which there is
an article entitled, "Marzani To Speak in Boston, Friday." The body
of the article indicates you were to speak under the sponsorship of the
New England Citizens Concerned for Peace. Kindly look at that
document and tell this committee whether or not you did speak and if
you are the Carl Marzani alluded to in that article.
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a page from the
Daily Worker of Monday, March 8, 1954, in which there is an article
entitled "Congressmen Visited Today on McCarran Act :"
Over 100 delegates from 15 cities attended the first session here yesterday of
the People's Conference to Repeal the McCarran Act. Sponsored by the Civil
Rights Congress, the meeting took place at Odd Fellows Hall at 9th and T
Streets.
The article continues, "Other speakers included * * * Carl Marzani."
Look at that article and tell this committee whether or not you are
the Carl Marzani who was a speaker and who was active in this visi-
tation to the Congressmen.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 77," see appendix, p. 7226.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. In December of 1954 were you in Washington ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Marzani. I just do not recall.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in Washington during the course
of 1954 for a rally?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Have you participated in a visitation with other dele-
gates to Congressmen on behalf of the People's Conference to Kepeal
the McCarran Act ?
Mr. Marzani. I just do not recall.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the front
page of a publication identified as "Progress in Massachusetts," a pub-
lication of the Progressive Party of Massachusetts, dated March 1954.
According to this document, one Carl Marzani was announced as the
feature speaker at an affair to be held by the Progressive Party. Part
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6253
of the program announced was to plan a fight back against State and
Federal inquisitions.
Would you look at that document and tell us whether you partici-
pated in that conference as indicated by the publication?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. In May of 1953, were you treasurer of the National
Committee to Win Amnesty for the Smith Act Victims ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth, and ninth,
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a letterhead
of that organization (dated May 22, 1953) containing the identifi-
cation of a person by the name of Carl Marzani as treasurer.
Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt. Mr. Novick is excused. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Would you look at this exhibit and tell us whether or
not you are the person identified on that letterhead as Carl Marzani,
the treasurer of the organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 78," see appendix, p. 7227.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document entitled "Am-
nesty Trumpet," — September-October, 1954 — in which there appear
a number of articles, and one article is entitled, "Monstrous Law
Threatens New Smith-McCarran Act Persecutions." At the end of
this article Carl Marzani is indicated as treasurer of the National
Committee To Win Amnesty for Smith Act Victims.
Please look at that document and tell us whether you are or were
treasurer of that organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 79a-d." see appendix, pp. 7228-
7231.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered with the United States Con-
gress mider the Ijobbying Act ?
Mr. Marzani. No.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which we have termed
Mr. Marzani. May I say, by the way, I do not know if it is proper,
but I have listened here for 2 days on this question of asking people
whether they have registered for the Lobbying Act and it strikes me
as kind of fantastic that a lobbying act which was enacted in order
to control corporations is being used against individuals who are
presumably, according to what you are saying, trying to influence
legislation.
I also thought that was one of the prerogatives of an American
citizen and I just do not like the whole aura of intimidation. Thank
you.
Mr. Arens. If you were treasurer of this organization designed
to influence legislation, why did you not register with the United
States Congress under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth.
Mr. ScHERER. Then what happens to that little speech you just
made ?
Mr. Marzani. I'll tell you what happens. As I explained to you
before, sir, liaving been framed once if I thought for a moment this
committee — and I have great fears of this committee and justifiably
so, because I don't believe this committee is Avorrying about the health
of the United States. I think they are trying to put me in jail and
I won't let them. I will do everything I can under the Constitution
of the United States. The privilege is my privilege, sir.
6254 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
There is nothing illegal about it and I know exactly what I am
doing and I am standing on my rights as an American citizen.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of an organization designed to de-
stroy the Constitution of the United States ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth,
and ninth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since the Korean war ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since the desanctification of Stalin ?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since the recent Communist atrocities in Hungary?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments. By the way, I wish to say one more thing. I just
resent the imputations and inferences and innuendoes about my patri-
otism. As a matter of actual fact, I have proven my patriotism and
I was in the Army and I didn't dodge anything and took my risk and
by the way, I went to jail because of my patriotism.
Mr. Arens. Stand up then like a patriotic American and deny while
you are under oath that you are a member of thfe Communist con-
spiracy.
Mr. Marzani. I stand on the first, fifth, and ninth amendments,
made for these purposes to stop people like you and that is what the
Bill of Rights was made for, so don't tell me what a patriotic man
should stand on. The Constitution is good enough for me and I wish
it was good enough for you.
Mr, Arens. Are you a member of an organization designed to de-
stroy the Constitution ?
Mr. Marzani. First, fifth, and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I will lay before you a reproduction of the New York
Beacon issued by the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, with reference to a mass rally for the Walter-McCarran Act
repeal. This mass rally was held in Yugoslav Hall in New York City
on January 17, 1955, and according to this article one of the orators for
the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act was Carl Marzani.
Please look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not you were a par-
ticipant in that mass rally for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran law
held in New York City ?
(See exhibit No. 23a-d," appendix, pp. 7122-7125.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the basis of the first, fifth, and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Worker,
of April 1, 1956, containing a letter from one Carl Marzani on the
Stalin revaluation.
According to this article, and I will summarize it, the author, Carl
Marzani, condemns and commends the Communist Party and says
among other things, "I have never accepted, nor indeed have I ever
seen evidence, that the American Communist Party was, as the saying
goes, 'run by Moscow'."
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6255
Would you kindly look at that article and tell us whether or not you
Avrote that letter to the editor ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 80a, b," see appendix, pp. 7232,
7233.)
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer on the first, fifth and ninth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen any evidence that the American
Communist Party was, or is, run by Moscow?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I also observe in this article, your statement or these
statements by Carl Marzani, that you have no antagonism toward
anyone and Communist leaders need no defense from you. Did you
make those statements?
Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth, and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you an original document which is an
announcement by the Socialist Unity Forum, of a discussion group on
Prospects for American Socialism to be held November 9, 1956.
One of the speakers in this forum is a man identified here as Carl
Marzani. Please look at that document and tell us whether or not you
are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 81a, b," see appendix, pp. 7234,
7235.)
Mr, Marzani. I decline to answer, first, fifth and ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party conspiracy
while you were employed in the Federal Government ?
Mr. Marzani. Wliat is the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
either ordered to answer that question or invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness.
Mr. Marzani. He said, "Am I a member of the Communist con-
spiracy^?" What is meant by the words "a Communist conspiracy"?
Obviously I cannot answer something I don't know.
Mr. Moulder, Of course the words explain themselves if you know
the meaning of the words.
Mr. ScHERER. He is a graduate of Williams College,
Mr. Marzani. And Oxford University and that is why I don't
understand the words.
Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist while you were in the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Marzani. You mean a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Marzani, I refuse to answer on the basis of the first, fifth and
ninth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staflF
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You may claim your wit-
ness fees.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 p, m,
(Whereupon the committee recessed at 12 : 15 p, m.)
6256 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
AFTERNOON SESSION— TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1956
(The hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., Hon. Francis E. Walter, chair-
man of the committee, presiding.)
The Chairman". The committee will come to order.
Mr. Arens. Frank Ilchuk, please come forward and remain stand-
ing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK ILCHUK; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mr. Ilchuk. My name is Frank Ilchuk, and I live at 100 Second
Avenue, New York City.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Will you keep your voice up, Mr. Ilchuk ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I will try. Do you want me to answer the question
again ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, Please, sir.
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to give my occupation on the rights and
privileges accorded me by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present
occupation ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline for the reasons just stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer that question.
The Chairman. You can answer that question.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. What is the question, sir ?
Mr. Arens. How long have you been so engaged?
Mr. Ilchuk. Five years.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
issued by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Ilchuk. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself please,
sir?
Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New
York, N. Y.
Mr. Arens. In what city is your occupation located, Mr. Ilchuk?
Mr. Ilchuk. In New York City.
Mr. Arens. And tell us please, sir, where and when were you
born ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I was born in the Ukraine, in 1907.
Mr. Arens. And you immigrated to the United States in 1912,
is that correct ?
Mr. Ilchuk. That is correct.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6257
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Ilchuk. I am.
Mr. Arens. Is that by derivative citizenship ?
Mr. Ilchuk. Right.
Mr, Arens. Give us just a word please, sir, about your formal ed-
ucation.
Mr. Ilchuk. My formal education was of course all in this coun-
try, grammar school, high school, and university.
Mr. Arens. What university did you attend?
Mr. Ilchuk. Syracuse University, and Eastman School of Mu-
sic of the University of Rochester.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did you complete your education at these two
institutions ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In 1933.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, if you please, sir, what was your first occupa-
tion after you completed your formal education?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I went to Detroit where I did some free-lance work
as a musician, whatever I could get, and then for a short period of
time I played with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra.
Mr. Arens. When did you play with the Detroit Symphony Or-
chestra ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In 1934.
Mr. Arens. Now, continue, please, from that date and tell us what
your next occupation was.
Mr. Ilchuk. My next occupation, I came to New York and I en-
gaged in musical activities, teaching music, and conducting.
Mr. Arens. Where did you teach and where did you conduct?
Mr. Ilchuk. I was self-employed.
Mr. Arens. Where did you teach ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In my home in the studio.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you engage in this
occupation ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I engaged in that occupation for the next 9 j^ears.
Mr. Arens. And that brings us up then to about
Mr. Ilchuk. 1943.
Mr. Arens. Then, tell us what your occupation was beginning in
1943.
Mr. Ilchuk. I served in the Armed Forces of our country.
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I served in tlie European theater of operations.
Mr. Arens. And in what capacity ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I was at the 88th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron
of the 8th Army Division.
Mr. Arens. Did you have a commission ?
Mr. Ilchuk. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long did you serve in the Armed Forces?
Mr. Ilchuk. I served from May 1943 to the end of November 1945.
Mr. Arens. Pick us up there and tell us what your occupation Avas
after you were disassociated from the Armed Forces?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I refuse to answer the question for the reasons
previously stated.
6258 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. During the music career to which you were alluding,
were you ever connected with the Metropolitan Music School in New
York City?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. Yes, sir.
Mr, Arens. And in what capacity ?
Mr, Ilchuk. First as an instructor, instructor of violin theory and
harmony and laier as its director.
Mr. Arens. What was your next occupation after the occupation
which we have just been talking about in 1945 ?
Mr. Ilchuk. The occupation right after the one in 1945 ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to ansv/er that question for the reasons
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. How long did that oc-cupation endure?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that on the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. And what was your next occupation ?
(Witness consulted counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. There is no next occupation.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in any occupation other than
the one which began in 1945 ?
Mr. Ilchuk. Yes, sir, engaged in musical activities, teaching pri-
vately, and self-employed.
Mr. Arens. When you invoked the fifth amendment a little while
ago with reference to you present occupation, you said subsequently
that your present occupation dates back for 5 years. What was the
occupation which you were engaged in immediately prior to your
present occupation?
(Witness consulted counsel.)
Mr. Arens. What was the occupation that you had just before
in 1945 ; what occupation were you engaged in ?
Mr. Ilchuk. In 1945 up to November I was in the Armed Forces.
Mr. Arens. In 1947, did you take a trip abroad?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered
and directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Ilchuk. I respectfully decline on the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a leaflet of the
World Youth Festival in Prague, 1947, containing a list of Americans
attending the World Youth Festival in Prague in 1947 including one
Frank Ilchuk, identified here as a choral leader of the Slavic American
Youth Council. Kindly look at that and see if it refreshes your recol-
lection with respect to the trip you may have made abroad at that
time?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 82a, b," see appendix, pp. 7236,
7237.)
(Document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time identified with the Slavic Ameri-
can Youth Council?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a passport appli-
cation under date of June 12, 1947, by one Frank H. Ilchuk, and an
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6259
accoinpanying- statement submitted with the application by one Doris
Senk, executive secretary of the World Youth Festival, with refer-
erence to one Frank llchuk. Please look at the application and tell us
whether or not that is your signature appearing after tlie ( )atli of Al-
legiance.
(Documents marked '"Exhibit Xo. 8oa-c,"" see ai)pendi.\. pp. 72o8-
7240.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Ilchuk, as a witness you are entitled to certain wit-
ness fees after you have signed a pay vouchei'. I therefore ask you
if you will now affix your signature to this pay voucher where it
says "Payee."
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Needlemax. Since this is a blank voucher. I decline to have my
client fill it out. If you will fill it out, I will be ghid to have liim
sign it. I cannot ask him to sign and permit him to sign a blank
voucher.
]\Ir. Arens. We are not asking you to ask him.
The Chairman. Before you ask another question, what is the Shivic
American Youth Council, JNIr. Ilchuk ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to ansver that for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that in June of 1947 you made application for a passport
in which you stated you were going to attend a World Youth Festival
in Prague, and that this is a true and correct reproduction of that
passport application.
Mr. Ilchuk. ^Ylmt is the question ?
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that is your signature and that
is a duplicate of your passport application.
jNIr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1947 did you take a trip abroad ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the basis pi'e-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article appear-
ing in the Daily Worker of March 19, 1947, entitled. "'Joint Con-
ference Formed Against Intervention,'' with reference to a con-
ference against intervention in Greece and Turkey, and one of tlie
persons who formulated this conference is identified as Frank Ilchuk,
IWO. Please look at that, sir, and tell us whether or not that re-
freshes your recollection?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 84," see appendix, p. 7241.)
(Document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to ansMcr for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of a
publication entitled, "The Slavic American," dated fall 1947, in which
appears a photograph of one Frank Ilchuk, and an article stating
that Frank Ilchuk was elected to represent the Slavic American
Youth Council at tlie World Youth Festival in Pi-ague, and that that
Frank Ilchuk Avas the newly elected President of the Tf^krainian
American Fraternal Union. Please look at that, sir, and tell us if
6260 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
that refreshes your recollection with reference to your activities in
1947.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 85a, b," see appendix, pp. 7242,
7243.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the World Youth Festival in Prague
in 1947?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Is this your photograph in this document which I now
display to you?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Are you now connected with the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the basis previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1949 did you participate in a National Conference
Against Deportation Hysteria, which was convened in Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been president of the Ukrainian Defense
Committee ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that on the same reasons stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of the pro-
gram and minutes of the National Conference Against Deportation
Hysteria held in December of 1949 in Detroit, Mich., in which one
of the participants in the panel is identified as Frank Ilchuk, of New
York, president of the Ukrainian Defense Committee. Please look at
that, sir, and tell this committee while you are under oath if you are
the Frank Ilchuk alluded to in that document?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In this same document I invite your attention to a list
of the board of directors of this organization in which is set forth
among other persons the name of Frank Ilchuk, Ukrainian Defense
Committee of New York. Please look at that document, sir, and tell
us whether or not you are that Frank Ilchuk referred to as a member
of the board of directors of that organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit II," see appendix, pp. 8275-8o02.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1954, did you participate in a conference in New
York City of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
entitled, "A National Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign
Born Americans"?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that for the reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you now a photostatic reproduction of the
summary proceedings of that conference, in which Frank Ilchuk of
New York City is identified as one of the participants in the confer-
once. Please look at that, sir, and tell me whether or not that refreshes
your recollection.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
Mr. Ii-CHUK. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre-
\ iously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6261
Mr. Arens. What have you done in the course of tlie hist few years
+oward proniotino; your interests or the interests of your associates
in national legishition by the Congress?
Mr. Ilciiuk. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilciiuk. I respectfully decline to answer that question for the
reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Are you registered as a lobbyist?
Mr. Ilciiuk. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you taken an active part. in promoting legislation
or in opposing legislation by your organization, or as an individual?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question for reasons previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of the
minutes of the ])roceedings of the Conference of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, Saturday, December 10, 1955,
in which the following appears:
Before introducing Abner Green, the Chair is asking authorization of the con-
ference to appoint from the Chair, the chairmen of the three committees of the
conference, resolutions, credentials, and nominating, with the understanding
that the cliairmaii of the conference committee will select their own committees
from among the liody of the conference. When authorization is granted the
Chair is to appoint as chairmen the following: Including credentials committee,
Frank Ilchuk, of New York.
Please look at that document and tell us whether or not you are the
Frank Ilchuk alluded to and whether you participated in that con-
ference.
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Ilchuk, we have filled out pursuant to the
demands of your counsel, your expense voucher and while you are
under oath I would like to have you affix your signature as payee to
this document.,
(The document was handed to the witness.)
(The witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. Right here?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, where it says, "Payee.''
(The witness signed the document.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest that this part
of the voucher containing the signature of Mr. Ilchuk be incorporated
in this record so that the signature nuiy be compared w^th the signature
on the passpoi-t ap])lication.
(Document marked "'Fixhibit No. 8(5," see appendix, p. 7244.)
The CiiAunrAN. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. ^\v. Ilchuk, I lay before you a ])hotostatic copy of a
page from a ])amphlet pul)lished by the Ukrainian National Folk
Festival, which Festival was held in Detioit, Midi., in 1J)4S. Accord-
ing (o this advertisement one Frank Ilchuk is national president of the
Ukrainian American Fraternal Union. Please look at that document
and tell use whether or not you are that Frank Ilchuk.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 87," see appendix, p. 7245.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
So'^X', — 57 — lit. 1 9
6262 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer for reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a call to a
national founding convention of a youth organization to support the
policies of the Wallace and Taylor Party. Among the persons listed
as sponsors in this call is Mr. Frank H. Ilchuk, president of the
Ukrainian-American Fraternal Union. l*lease look at that and tell
us whether or not you are he ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 88a-h,-' see appendix, pp. 7246-
7253.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis of the reasons previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Please tell this committee, Mr. Ilchuk, what is the
Ukrainian American Fraternal Union?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis of the reasons previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. Is there such an organization as Ukrainian American
Fraternal Union ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't.
Mr. Arens. Was there such an organization ?
Mr. Ilchuk. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And during what course of time did it exist ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. Would you repeat the question ?
Mr. Arens. During what course of time did the organization exist?
Mr. Ilchuk. To the best of my knowledge, from 1944 vmtil about
1953.
Mr. Arens. What is the basis of your knowledge ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was Sam ^lilgrom ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before 3'ou now a letterhead of a Committee for the
Freedom of Sam Milgrom, in Avhich a Frank Ilchuk is identified as
treasurer of the organization. Please look at that and tell us whether
or not you were treasurer of that organization.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 89," see appendix, p. 7254.)
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Olive Sutton?
Mr. Ilchuk. No, sir, I don't think so.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a Daily Worker of
October 21, 1948, an article by Olive Sutton, entitled "American Cul-
ture Enriched by Ukranian Folk Festival,'' in which allusion is made to
yourself, Frank II. Ilchuk, president of the Ukranian American Fra-
ternal Union. I will ask you if that refreshes your recollection with
reference to her ?
Mr. Ilchuk. No, sir, it does not.
Mr, Arens. Have you been active in the International Workers
Order ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
IMr. Arens. I lav befoi-e you now a phot()st;!iic copv of an article
from the Daily Worker of August 10, 1949, entitled "IWO Vets to
Join Pickets at Foley Square Friday." Keference is made to a call
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6263
to all Internntioiial Workers Order veterans issued by a number of
persons including a Frank Ilcliuk, and I will ask you if that refreshes
your recollection.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Arexs. According to that article, the call is for the purpose of
picketing Foley Square during the time of the trial of the Communist
traitors.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 90," see appendix, p. 7255.)
Mr. Ilciiuk. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question on the basis previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you now identified with the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Ilchuk. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre-
viously stated,
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. There are no questions.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Arens. The next witness is Frances Damon Williams.
Will you kindly remain standing while the chairman administers
an oath to you ?
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the trutli, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Miss Damon. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANCES MacKINNON DAMON (FRANCES DAMON
WILLIAMS) ; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, MILTON H. FRIEDMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Miss Damon. My name is Frances MacKinnon Damon, and I live
at 611 West lo7th Street, New York City, and I have no occupation.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Miss Damon. [ was born in Honolulu.
Mr. Arens. And when did vou come to the continental United
States?
Miss Damon. I first visited the continent in 1928, I believe, and it
was a short visit.
Mr. Arens. When did you come for permanent residence?
Miss Damon. Probably it was 1989 for permanent residence in the
t'nited States. I had traveled before that through the United States.
Mr. Arens. And when were you married?
Miss Damon. I was married in 1947.
Mr. Arens. What is your husband's name?
Miss Damon. My husband's name was Herbert Williams.
Mr. AiiENS. Now ]\Irs. Williams, have you ever traveled abroad
since arriving in the United States for permanent residence?
Miss Damon. Yes, I have.
Mr. Arens. And wlien was that ?
6264 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Damon. I traveled to Mexico in 1943, and I may have visited
Canada during those years. I went to Europe in 1945.
Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of your trip to Europe in 1945 ?
Miss Damon. My purpose in going to Europe at that time, to
London, was as a delegate to the World Youth Conference which
was held in London.
Mr. Arens. And did you attend the World Youth Conference in
London ?
Miss Damon. Yes, sir; J did.
Mr. Arens. Who designated you as a delegate to the conference ?
Miss Damon. I was elected by an arrangements committee which
was established in New York City, with the participation of a num-
ber of youth organizations interested at that time in promoting in-
ternational good friendship.
Mr. Arens. And who were some of these people that set up this
world youth organization?
Miss Damon. I am afraid that I don't wish, or I would have to
decline, to answer questions about other people.
Mr. Arens. Was Doris Senk a member of this group that set up this
World Youth Conference ?
Miss Damon. I think that I have made it clear that I decline to
answer questions about other people.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
The Chairman. The witness is directed to answer the question.
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
tlie privileges afforded me by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a passport
application made by one Frances M. Damon, June 1945, and I will ask
you if that is your signature ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. Yes, that is my signature.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. One of the witnesses on this application
is Doris Senk ; is it not ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 91a, 8," see appendix, pp. 7256,
7257.)
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
The Chairman. The writing speaks for itself. Is the name there,
Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Aren. Yes. Do you know the lady whose name ajipeai's here
as a witness ?
Miss Damon. T think I have made it clear that I don't wish to be
an informer, and I don't wish to answer questions about other people.
I tliei-efore respectfully ask or I respectfully invoke the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel now if you told this conunittee
whether or not you have known Doris Senk whose name ap])ears on
your passi)ort ap})lication, that you woukl be supplying information
M-liich might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
^Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. Yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6265
Mr. Arens. We do not have the identity of counsel.
Mr. Friedman. ^Milton H. Friedman, New York.
Mr. Arens. How long were you in London in connection with this
World Youth Conference?
Miss Damon. Probably about a month. I am not sure of the exact
lenoth of time.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go afterward ?
Miss Damon. I returned to the United States.
Mr. Arens. Did you subsequently take a trip abroad in the course
of the next year or so ?
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go that time ?
Miss Damon. I went to Paris.
Mr. Arens. And for what purpose ?
Miss Damon. I went because at the World Youth Conference I had
been elected as one of the officers of the World Federation of Demo-
cratic Youth.
Mr. Arens. That was in London ?
Miss Damon. The election took place in London; yes. And the
headquarters of the federation was in Paris and I went there to fulfill
my responsibilities as an officer of the federation.
Mr. Arens. Who paid your expenses?
Miss Damon. I paid my own expenses.
Mr. Arens. And when was it that you went to Paris?
Miss Damon. In the spring of 194(5.
Mr. Arens. How long were you in Paris?
Miss Damon. It is difficult for me to give you an exact time.
Mr. Arens. Your best recollection?
Miss Damon. Because I traveled a very great deal during that time.
It is hard to recall right now.
Mv. Arens. Well, did you leave Paris and go any place else on the
Continent while 3^ou were there?
JNliss Damon. I visited many of the countries.
Mr. Arens. What countries did you visit?
Miss Damon. I think that I visited practically all of the countries.
Mr. Arens. Did you travel to Czechoslovakia?
Miss Damon. Yes; I did.
j\Ir. Arens. "What was the occasion for your traveling to Czechoslo-
vakia ?
Miss Damon. Tliere may have been meetings of the World Federa-
tion of Democratic Youth in Czechoslovakia, and conferences and fes-
tivals, and I am not sure.
Mv. Arens. Where were those held, if you remember?
Miss Damon. You have asked me about Czechoslovakia?
Mr. Arens. Yes; where Avere the conferences held, if you please?
Miss Damon. They would have been held in Prague.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend conferences in Prague?
Miss Damon. 'J'o the best of my recollection; yes.
Mr. Arens. And then did you attend conferences in tlie IT. S. S. R.?
Miss Damon. At one time tlie World Federation of Democratic
Youth held its executive meeting in Moscow.
Mr. Arens. When was that?
Miss Damon. To tlie best of my recollection, it was in 1947.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the session ?
(5266 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Damon. Yes ; I attended as an officer, and as a member of the
executive committee of the World Federation.
Mr. Akens. In 1947, did you likewise travel to Mexico?
Miss Damon. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. Arens. What was the occasion for your traveling to Mexico?
Miss Damon. I went as a member of a delegation of the World
Federation of Democratic Youth to visit Mexico.
Mr. Arens. And was there a session in Mexico of this World Feder-
ation of Democratic Youth?
Miss Damon. Yes; we had a conference.
Mr. Arens. What year w^as that?
Miss Damon. That was in 1948.
Mr. Arens. And in 1949 did you again travel abroad?
Miss Damon. Yes ; I was abroad in 1949.
Mr. Arens. 'Wliere did you go abroad in 1949 ?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect exactly which countries I visited.
Mr. Arens. Did you go to Budapest, Hungary ?
Miss Damon. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. What was the occasion for your going to Budapest,
Hungary ?
Miss Damon. On that occasion, there was a world festival of youth
and students in Budapest, and a congress of the World Federation of
Democratic Youth.
Mr. Arens. And in 1950, did you travel abroad again ?
Miss Damon. I was traveling abroad in 1950.
Mr. Arens. In 1950 did you attend a session of the democratic
world youth organization in Oslo, Norway?
Miss Damon. I am not sure of the organization there. Wliatdidyou
say ?
Mr. Arens. Did you attend a conference of some kind in Oslo,
Norway, in 1950 ?
Miss Damon. There could have been a meeting of the World Fed-
eration of Democratic Youth, of its council or executive committee.
Mr. Arens. Did you make a speech while you were in Oslo, Norway,
about certain situations and conditions existing in the United States
in 1950?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect.
Mr. Arens. Let me read you what has been identified as your state-
ments before this committee, and see if you will confirm them ?
Miss Damon. Which committee?
Mr. Arens. The Committee on Un-American Activities, before
which you are appearing today.
Miss Damon. My statements before it?
Mr. Arens. Your statements in Oslo, Norway, in March of 1950.
In the capitalist world, the youth peace moverueut has made special progress
in Italy. In that country half a million young boys and girls have signed a "peti-
tion for peace". The brave Italian youth stands solidly with their older comrades
who refuse to unload weapons and ammunition from the United States. * * *
The young people in the United States live under very difficult conditions today.
There are 3 million unemployed young people. The crisis hits the young people
especially hard. They cannot afford to get an education and the shortage of
housing makes it impossible for many of them to get married and to live normally.
The warmongers tempt the youth to join the Army by promising them this and
that. The war propaganda employs all means — press, radio, etc. to corrupt the
Youth. Still there remains a strong passive as well as active resistance among
the young people * ♦ *.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6267
Many of them support the campaijiii agaiust compulsory military training, for
prohibition of atomic weapons, for friendship with the democratic forces in all
countries, for peace and understanding between all peoples. The young people are
worried about the increasing efforts of the reactionaries, about the threatening
developments toward fascism and the liciuidation of democratic rights.
(Document marked '"Exhibit No. 92a, b," see appendix, pp. 7258,
7259.)
Did you make that statement in Oslo, Norway, in 1950?
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I don't recollect that. It doesn't exactly
sound the way I v;oidd put thing's.
The Chairman. What was the date of that ?
Mr. Arens. March 28, 1950.
The Chairman. Were you in Oslo on the 28th of March 1950?
Miss Damon. I cannot recall precisely, and I know at one time there
was a meeting of the executive committee of the World Federation of
Democratic Youth, and whether it was that month or that year it is
hard for me to say.
The Chairman. Don't you even remember the year when you were
in Norway ?
Miss Damon. I traveled so many times to so many of these countries
that it is very difficult to pin them down in terms of exact months and
years.
Mr. Arens. When you were in Oslo in 1950, were you interviewed by
the Communist Friheten ?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect.
Mr. Arens. Were you interviewed by any papers which issued state-
ments similar to those which I have just read to you?
Miss Damon. I really don't recollect.
Mr. Arens. In 1950, did you attend a conference in Berlin of this
world youth organization, or World Federation of Democratic Youth?
Miss Damon. In 1950?
Mr. Arens. Or, 1951?
Miss Damont. In 1951, there was the world festival of youth and
students for peace, which was held in Berlin.
Mr. Atens. And where was that? In the eastern sector of Berlin,
in the Soviet sector of Berlin ?
Miss Damon. It was in Berlin.
Mr. Arens. In what sector of Berlin was it?
Miss Damon. Yes, I imagine it was.
Mr. Arens. Well now, you knew you were in the Soviet sector of
Berlin in 1951 to attend this youth rally, did you not?
Miss Damon. I was at the festival.
Mr. Arens. In the course of your presence in Berlin, for this j'outh
festival, did you make a s]:)eech?
Miss Damon. I probably made many speeches during the festival.
Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of that speech in Berlin, in
1951
Miss Damon. Which speech ?
Mr. Arens. Say among other things :
It is our responsibility to prevent the war which is desired by the Wall Street
monopoly which rules the United States and by its marionettes. The American
imperialists, whose hands are already covered with the blood of their crimes
against the peace-loving women, mothers, and children of Korea, are preparing
new aggression and their unappeasable hunger for dollars * * *
Did you make that sj^eech in the Russian sector of Berlin?
6268 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Damon. It doesn't sound like my language at all.
Mr. Ahkns. Did you also say in that same speech in the Soviet sec-
tor of Berlin, during this session, the following :
Behind the policy of the Americans in Gennnny, of the Americans in French
cities lil<e Bordeaux, of the Americans in the various bases of aggression tlirough-
out the world, and, above all, the Americans in Korea, is hidden the policy of
war preparation, of militarizing the American with the spending of billions for
armament and nothing for the economic and cultural needs of youth, the policy
of the"facistization" of America which manifests itself in the persecution of
the friends of freedom and democracy, in horrible brutalities against the Negro.
Therefore, we in America are raising a great protest. AVe the simple people,
who are flooded by the local newspapers, who write to Truman and his repre-
sentatives and demand that they immediately withdraw the American troops
from Korea.
Did you make that speech or is that part of a speech that you made
in the Soviet sector of Berlin in 1951 ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 03a, b, see appendix, pp 72(50,
7261.)
Miss Damon. It really doesn't sound like a speech that I made.
Mr. S('iiERER. You say it doesn't sound like your language. Did you
have somebody write the speech for you and then you gave it?
Miss Damon. I always wrote my own speeches.
Mr. Arens. Did you condemn the United States militar}- action in
Korea, in your speech in the Russian sector of Berlin ?
Miss Damon. I really don't know what speech you are referring to.
Mr. Arens. You said that you made a number of speeches in Berlin ;
didn't you?
Miss Damon. You quoted there— that doesn't sound like me at all.
The Chairman. Did you make that speech ?
Miss Damon. I have stated that this doesn't sound like me, so it
doesn't sound like a speech that I made.
The Chairman. I will agree with that, but did you make that
statement?
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I don't quite understand. I have stated
that it isn't at all familiar to me.
The Chairman. All right. What are you reading from ?
Mr. Arens. I have a document right here that I Avill read from,
which is an interview with Frances Damon, United States delegate
representing the World Federation of Democratic Youth at the Inter-
national Union of Students' Congress in Prague. That was in 1950,
August 17. I should like to read this to you, Miss Damon, and ask
if you will conlirm or deny it.
Miss Damon. An interview with a newspaperman, or what?
Mr. Arens. On the radio.
The Chatrtvian. Before you do that, ask her about her being there.
Mr. Arens. We have established that. You were in Prague in 1950;
were you not ? You said so a little while ago.
Miss Damon. I didn't say I was there in 1950, in Prague. I could
have been in Prague in 1950.
Mr. Arens. Did you, in 1950, in Prague participate in a radio ]^ro-
gram of the International Union of Students?
INfiss Damon. I cannot recall any radio program at that time.
The Chairman. Do you know an organization known as the Inter-
national Union of Students?
Miss Daimon. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you a member of it ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6269
Miss Da:\iox. Xo ; I was never a inenihei- of the Iiiteniational Union
of Students.
i\fr. Arexs. Did you represent the Worhl Federation of Democratic
Youth at tlie conference in Prague?
Miss Damox. It is quite possible tliat I did.
Mr. Arens. Did 3'ou make these statements :
We have many examples which show that the broadcast sections of young
I)e<>ple in the United States have increasingly spoken out to condemn the
United States war of aggression against tlie Korean people.
Did you say that, or substantially that, in Prague, Czechoslovakia?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 94," see appendix, p. 7262.)
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I don^t remember,
Mr. Arens. I have before me now a message to the State Depart-
ment from the consul in Berlin under date of March 1951, that, "the
December 1, 1950, issue of Neues Deutschland (Berlin) carried an
article under a Vienna dateline alleging that one Frances Damon, an
American citizen, made a speech in Vienna at the Soviet-sponsored
Third World Youth Festival." Now^, were you at the Third World
Youth Festival in December of 1950 ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 95," see appendix, p. 7263.)
Miss Damon. There was no festival in December of 1950.
Mr. Arens. Were you in Vienna, in 1950 ?
Miss Damon. It is possible that I was there, but I don't remember
any festival.
Mr. Arens. AVhat do you remember when you were there in 1950 ?
Miss Damon. I don't recollect specifically being in Vienna in 1950.
Mr. Arens. When do you recollect being in Vienna ?
Miss Damon. I visited Vienna on several occasions.
The Chairman. When ?
Miss Damon. During the course of the 7i/^ years.
The Chairman. You cannot make it more definite than 7l^ years?
If you have her passport, maybe you could show her the dates.
Mr. Arens. We have the passport applications, but she was over
there so long we are unable to pinp )int it beyond the report from
the American consul abroad.
The Chairman. Did you surrender your passport when you came
back to the United States?
Miss Damon. They didn't ask for it.
The Chairman. Did you ?
Miss Damon. No ; I don't have my passpoi't.
Mr. Scherer. Where is it ?
Miss Daimon. I don't know where it is.
Mr. ScTiERER. Has it expired?
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How many speeches did you make in Europe on behalf
of this World Youth Festival organization?
Miss Da:mon. There was no World Youth Festival organization.
Mr. Arens. On behalf of the oi-ganization you represented; and
■what was that?
Miss Damon. The World Federation of Democratic Youth.
Mr. Arens. How many speeches did you make in Europe?
Miss Daimon. I probably made many speeches.
Mr. Scherer. Probably?
6270 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. You probably made many. What does that mean ?
Miss Damon. It is hard to count over a period of so many years, and
there were many occasions when meetings, conferences, and festivals
were held,
Mr. ScHERER. You made many speeches as is obvious from the
record and from your testimony. There is no "probably" about it.
Mr. Arens. In 1951, in one of your speeches in Berlin, did you say ? —
We seud greetings to heroic Korea and to our brothers and sisters of the Soviet
Union, Communist China, and the People's Democracy.
Did you allege there was a "shadow of fascism" falling across the
United States ?
Mr. ScHERER. Were we in war at the time that these statements were
made?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know the definition of treason ?
Miss Damon. May I consult with my lawyer, please ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I think there are two questions here ; one was a speech
there in Berlin, and it is difficult for me to place some of these speeches,
and some of the language which is from newspaper accounts.
I am sure for example, if I sent greetings of friendsiiip to the J'^oung
people in other parts of the world, that I did so. Tliis precise language
I remember at the time from this newspaper story ; tliere vv'ere certain
words there used which I wouldn't have used, and which were, I believe,
a misquote on the part of the newspaper concerned.
The Chairman. Just a moment, please.
Miss Damon. If I spoke about a "shadow of fascism" over the
United States, I believed at that time that there was, and I gave an
example, I believe, then of a number of prominent people who were
unable to attend the festival, and this to me is something which is not
a very democratic sort of a thing. With regard to the question which
Mr. Sclierer asked me, "Do I knov,' the definition of trenson ?" I don't
know the legal definition of treason, but I am no traitor, and I love my
country and my people, and I will stand up and in their interests to the
best of my ability.
Mr. Scherer. Let me tell you the definition. It is giving aid and
comfort to the enemy in time of war. Do you think the speeches
that you made all over Europe, that have just been read to you by
counsel, were giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war?
Miss Damon. I don't think that that is giving aid and comfort to
the enemy in time of war to ask for friendship and to send gi-eetings
of friendship to another people. There is nothing traitorous or trea-
sonable about this.
Mr. Scherer. Not about that.
Miss Damon. All of us who want peace, and we would want friend-
ship among the peoples of the world. It is something which is very
dear to the traditions of this country.
The Chairman. I^et me ask you a question. You say that you made
many speeches OA'er this period of time. Where did you speak?
Miss Damon. Are you referring to the period when I was with the
World Federation of Democratic Youth?
The Chair^man. Yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6271
Miss Damon. I spoke at many of the congresses and festivals.
The Chairman. Where were they ?
Miss Damon. They were held in many of the capitals of Europe,
in London, in Paris, and in Prague, and in Rome, and all over.
Mr. ScHERER. Who financed your trip ?
Miss Damon. ]\Iy trip ? I always paid my own expenses.
Mr. ScHERER. During all of these 7i/2 years that you were there ?
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You said that some of these people
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment, please.
What was your source of income ?
Miss Damon. I have a private income.
Mr. Arens. You said that some prominent people were unable to
attend this conference in 1951 in Berlin. "VS^io were some of these
people ?
Miss Damon. I think that I mentioned Paul Robeson and Howard
Fast, and I believe they are very prominent and very wonderful
citizens of the country.
Mr. Arens. Both of them have been identified as Communist agents.
Did you know that ?
Miss Damon. I think that I would refuse to answer such a question,
and decline to answer it on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Did you send greetings in this speech to any of the
non-Comniiniist countries of the world?
Miss Damon. Yes, I did.
Mr. Scherer. To what non-Communist countries did you send
greetings ?
Miss Damon. I think that I specifically in that speech referred to
"The Youth of Britain, of France, the youth of Asia, and Africa, and
Latin America."
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you made these speeches in Europe ?
Miss Damon. I would respectfully decline to answer such a question
on the grounds of both the first and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Damon. I would decline to answer such a question on the
same grounds. I regard it as an intrusion into my personal beliefs.
Mr. Arens. In the course of the. last few years, have you been
identified with the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I don't think so.
Mr. Arens. ' I will lay before you a summary of the proceedings of
the National Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Amer-
icans, in New York City, December 11, 1954, which summary was
prepared by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
There are set forth a list of the officials or participants in the confer-
ence including one Frances Damon of New York. I will ask you if
that refreshes your recollection ?
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. Arens. It does refresh your recollection ?
Miss Damon. Yes, sir.
6272 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now tell us, did you participate in that conference.
Miss Damon. Yes, sir.
Mr, Arens. And what was your participation?
Miss Damon. I was invited to speak there and I spoke there on the
Government's use of paid informers, and I stated at that time that the
use of such paid informers had led to very grave injustices against
many hundreds of innocent citizens and noncitizens of our country,
and probably I said some other things.
Mr. Arens. On what basis did you arrive at that conclusion, that
the use of paid informers had caused all of these injustices?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. You have asked for the basis on which I came to such
conclusions. I had done a certain amount of study of the use of
paid political informers and it would take quite a long time.
Mr. Arens. By "paid political informer," do you mean an under-
cover agent for the FBI in the Communist conspiracy ?
Miss Damon. I mean a stool pigeon like we had here this morning.
He named names.
Mr. Scherer. You mean John Lautner ?
The Chairman. Who were the innocent people? Just name the
innocent people whom he harmed.
Miss Damon. There are many examples of innocent people who
have been harmed by the lies of paid informers.
The Chairman. Just name one for me.
Miss Damon. Well, I can give you one example where the question
of a paid informer
The Chairman. We are talking about the man who testified this
morning. What was his name ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. John Lautner, and he identified a number of people
as Communists.
The Chairman. Just name one of those innocent persons.
Miss Damon. I would have to do a little research to bring you the
exact names of people but I would be very glad to give you such
information.
Mr. Arens. If someone identified you now as a member of the
Communist conspiracy, would he be lying or would he be telling the
truth ?
Miss Damon. I resent this implication that somehow my answer
wouldn't be necessarily true.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, are j'ou a Communist?
Miss Damon. I stand on the fifth amendment and the first amend-
ment with regard to such questions, prying into my personal beliefs.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party at the
present time?
Miss Damon. Mr. Arens, I have already stated that my answer to
such a question would be to stand on the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. And then if someone were to identify j^ou, accord-
ing to your standards you would call that person a stool pigeon, is that
correct ?
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I did not quite understand the question.
The Chairman. I say, if someone would testify that they knew you
to be a Communist, then according to your standards that person would
be a stool pigeon, is that correct?
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6273
Miss Damon. I am sorry, I don't understand that question.
The Chairman. All right, we will proceed.
Mr. ScHERER. You said. Madam, that Mr. Lautner who testified
under oatli before this committee yesterda}^ and today was a stool
pigeon. Now, you were present and heard his testimony, were you
not ?
Miss Damon. Do I recall precisely what he said?
Mr. SciiERBK. I did not say that, but were you present, that is the
first question?
Miss Damon. Was I present here in this hearing room this morning ?
Mr. SciiERER. Yes.
Miss Damon. Yes.
Mr. SciiERER. Can you tell us any one thing that he said that was
not true?
Miss Damon. This would involve me in discussing personalities, and
their beliefs, and individuals, and this is something that I cannot
myself do. If Mr. Lautner wislies to do it, I am soriy. It almost
makes me feel very sick, but I don't want to do that.
Mr. SciiERER. You initiated the attack against this witness who
came here and testified under oath, and now if you will tell me if Mr.
Lautner lied to this connnittee in any one respect, then I will ask that
his testimony and your testimony be referred to the Department of
Justice to determine whether or ]iot he lied or you lied. Will you
tell us in one respect, any one thing, any one identification that he made
that was false.
Miss Dajeon. Mr. Scherer, I feel that you are just trying to put me
into a trap.
Mr. ScHERER. Xo I think that I as a member of this committee have
a duty to defend a man who has come here and testified under oath
when you make those charges against him. You certainly are not
sustaining the charge that you made. I think that your failure to
answer the questions that I asked indicates that there is no basis for
your charge against Mr. Lautner.
(Witness consulted her counsel.)
Miss Damon. I think I could say this to you, Mr. Scherer, that Mr.
Lautner, he didn't testify about me. He testified about some of the
people wliom he claims to have known or met in the past. Any one
who is going to talk in that manner before, I don't care what commit-
tee or where it is, who is going to talk about the political beliefs or
Avhat they assume to be the political beliefs of other people — this to
me is a stool pigeon and this is part of the whole
Mr. ScjiKRER. Irrespective of the fact that you call him a stool
pigeon, iri'especlive of what he talked about, what I want to know is
in what respect he told this conunittee an untruth.
Miss Damon. I think I called him a stool pigeon and he is well known
as a stool pigeon. He is part of that traveling circus of these paid
political informers who go from trial to trial ad nauseam.
The Chairman. To some people.
Miss Damon. I don't know that the American people like an in-
former very much. You take a schoolchild, they hate somebody who
squeals against them.
6274 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. You talk about smearing people. You talk about this
smearing and ^uilt by association. You are sitting here smearing a
man who is willing to come before this committee under oath and
testify, and you don't have the courage to say in what respect that
man told this committee an untruth.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Mr. Akens. I would like to clear up one point. Is your maiden
name Frances Damon ?
Miss Damon. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Then your full married name is Frances Damon Wil-
liams ; is that correct ?
Miss Damon. I am divorced.
Mr. Arens. You now use the name Frances Damon Williams, is
that correct ?
Miss Damon, Frances Damon is really
Mr. Arens. You have been known under the name of Frances Damon
Williams?
Miss Damon. Oh, yes.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, ma'am.
The Chairman. Is that all?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Russell Nixon, please come forward.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Nixon. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed, Counsel.
TESTIMONY OF ETJSS (RUSSELL) NIXON
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Nixon. My name is Russ Nixon. I live in New York City. It
is a matter of public record that I am the Washington representative
of the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. How long have you occupied that position ?
Mr. NixoN. Since 1941.
Mr. Arens. What was your position immediately prior to your
present job?
Mr. Nixon. Immediately prior ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. I was national representative of Labor's Nonpartisan
I^eague.
Mr. Arens. How long did you occupy that job?
Mr. Nixon. For a period of about a year. I don't know precisely,
but about a year.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Arens, T am going to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Unless he gives a better reason than that, Mr. Chainnan,
I respectfully suggest that he be ordered and directed to answer the
question.
The Chairman. For what reason are you declining to answer ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6275
Mr. Nixon. I would like to tell you the reason that I decline to
answer the question. There are two or three reasons which I would
like to bring to the attention of the committee.
First, I decline to answer any question of this committee regarding
my political views, activities, associations, or affiliations because I
believe that such questions violate my rights under the first amend-
ment of the Bill of Eights to the Constitution by which all citizens
are guaranteed freedom of speech and peaceful association.
Secondly, I decline to answer such questions because I refuse to be a
party to the Un-American Committee's repressive actions against the
spirit and practice of political freedom in my country. Particularly
with regard to these hearings which the committee says are directed
at political subversion I object on the ground that these hearings
could only be based on a legislative purpose that is profoundly un-
constitutional, namely, the restriction and harassment of the right of
citizens to seek tlirough legal means to influence the legislative actions
of Congress and directly attacking the right of citizens to petition for
the redress of grievances.
Thirdly, I decline to answer such questions on the grounds of the
protection that is afl'orded me by the fifth amendment of the Bill
of Rights which extends to all citizens the privilege not to be a witness
against liimself. I assert this privilege in view of the jeopardy which
I believe confronts me and every other unfriendly witness before this
committee when confronted by such questions.
I assert this fifth amendment privilege because I fear for myself
as well as others the invasion upon my liberty threatened by the
combination of the repressive thought control legislation now in
efl'ect and tlie allegations of perjurious witnesses.
I utilize tliis valued and I believe very necessary constitutional pro-
tection emphasizing that it was written into our Bill of Rights to
protect innocent persons and that its invocation is not evidence of
guilt of crime or wrongdoing.
For these reasons I decline to answer the question that you have
just asked me, and I will for tlie same reasons refuse to answer other
questions that I deem to be of the same character.
I sliould like to say now that when and if further such questions
are asked me and I say that I decline to answer for reasons already
stated, I hftve reference to this statement which I have just completed.
Mr. Akens. Now please tell us, sir, were you a participant in a
conference of the Soutliern California Conference to Defend the
Rights of Foreign Born Americans, February 195?), which mapped
a five-point figlit for the defense of the foreign born ?
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer that question for the reasons whicli
I have just stated, and if it will help you, Mr. Arens, I am going to
decline to answer any question you may ask me about any associations
or relations witli tlie American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born or any of tlie other grou})s in connection with it mentioned in
the proceedings which I heard today and yesterday-
Mr. Arf.ns. I lay before you, if you please, sir, a ^photostatic roy.y
of an article from the Daily People's "World, February 10, 195;), out-
lining a five-point fight for the defense of the foreign born, to end
Government harassment once and for all of foreign born, to defend
the rights of tlie foreign born Americans, and calling for the outright
repeal of the AVulter-McCarran Law, for repeal of the ''stoolpigeoiv'
6276 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Internal Security Act, and for similar legislation. Listed as one
of the trade union leaders participatino^ in the conference is one
Russell Nixon, Washington representative of the United Electrical
Workers, who according to this article "underscored the role of trade
unions in the fight against Walter-McCarran and similar legislation."
Please look at that, sir, and tell us whether or not in the exercise of
your political freedom which you were speaking of a little while ago
you participated in that conference.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 96," see appendix, pp. 7264, 7265.)
Mr. Ntxon. On the assumption that you have read correctly, it
must be obvious to you that I decline to answer that question for the
reasons already stated.
Mr. Arens. Yesterday before this committee a lady by the name of
Dorothy Funn Swan took an oath and swore that while she was a
member of the Communist Party she knew you as a Communist. Was
she lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. Nixon. Do you want to check your record on that? I think
he wants to say something to you about it.
Mr. Arens. Was Miss Funn lying when she took an oath before this
committee the other day and identified you as a Communist ?
Mr. Nixon. I refuse to answer your revised question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Nixon. For the reasons that I have already stated.
Mr. Arens. Did you keynote a Walter-McCarran conference mider'
the auspices of the Michigan Connnittee for Protection of Foreign
Born in October 195?,?
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer for tlie reasons T have given..
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the outline
of the conference of the Michigan Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born headlined "Russ Nixon to keynote Walter-]\IcCarran
Conference," to be held Smiday, Novembei' 22, in Detroit, Mich.
Please look at that, sir, and tell this committee while you are under
oath whether or not you did keynote the conference of this committee
to repeal or to emasculate the Walter-McCarran Act?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 97," see appendix, p. 7265.)
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer for the reasons already given.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article from
the Daily Worker of Tuesday, February 17, 1953, Avhicli states that a
delegation of prominent Americans will see the Commissioner of Im-
migi'ation in order to procure bail bond for Sam Milgrom, who is'
t eing held for deportation under the infamous McCarran-Walter Act.
Hlease look at that article and tell us whether or not that i-efreshes
lour recollection of whetlier or not you did go and see the Com-
t::ussioner of Immigration to try to get Sam Milgrom released under
bail.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 98," see ai)])endix, p. 7265.)
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer for reasons already given.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic
Mr. SdTERER. What is the name ?
Mr. Arens. Sam Milgrom. '
Mr. ScHERER. What was he held for?
Mr. Arens. For de])ortation as a Communist.
Now I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of a document
ifsued by the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born en-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6277
titled, "Help Kepeal the Walter-McCarran Law, Attend Public Hear-
ing." (Held March 21, 1954.) Among those who are to speak at this
conference are : Mr. Abner Green, executive secretary of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and Mr. Russ Nixon,
legislative director of the United Electrical Workers Union.
Please tell this committee now whether or not you did participate
in that conference to help repeal the Walter-McCarran law.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 5)1)," see appendix, p. 7^266.)
Mr. Nixon. In this, as in the other documents, you are asking me
about speeches which I am alleged to have made, and I decline to
answer on the gi-ounds I have already stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered as a lobbyist under the Lobbying
Act?
Mr. NixoK. It is a matter of public record that I am registered in
conformity with the law under the Lobbying Act.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend and participate in a session under
the auspices of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born on March 21, 1954, and did you in that conference advise those
in attendance to defy the FBI and any and all national and local
government investigative bodies ?
Mr. Nixon. I decline to discuss that on the basis of the grounds I
have already stated.
Mr. Arens. 1 put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that in that conference you did make a speech calling upon
the conferees to defy the FBI and any and all national and local Gov-
ernment bodies and urged the participants to write to their Congress-
men, or contact Congressmen for certain legislative purposes, in-
cluding the rei^eal or amendment of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Arens, you are putting something to me as a fact
which has very little bearing
Mr. Arens. Tell me whether or not it is true.
Mr. Nixon. I decline to answer your question on the grounds that
I have stated.
Mr. Arens. Is it a fact that you did so ?
Mr. Nixon. Was my answer not clear ?
. Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the February
1954 issue of the March of Labor, which has been cited by this commit-
tee as a Communist-controlled publication, in which there is an article
by one Russ Nixon with reference to congressional action and legisla-
tion which must be fought, including the Walter-McCarran Act and
other sucli legislation. Kindly look at that, sir, and tell us whether
or not you wrote that article.
(Document n)!'.rked "Exhibit No. lOOa-c,'' see appendix, pp. 72(57-
7269.)
Mr. NixoN. I decline to respond on the grounds that I have already
stated.
Mr. Arens. xVs a UE public-i-elations man hei-e — or what is A'our
title?
Mr. Nixon. As I snid ;it the outset, I am the Washington represent-
ative of the union.
Mr. Arkns. As the Washington representative of the United Elec-
trical AVorkers organization
]Mr. Nixon. Union. It is a union.
Mr. Arens. I lay before yon, as Washington representative of the
LTnited Electrical organization, a photostatic copy of a UE press re-
85333— 57— pt. 1 10
6278 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
lease (June 2-'), 1954) with reference to certain of the activities of the
UE legislative-wise. Please look at that and tell us whether or not
you were the author of that press release.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. lOla-c," see appendix, pp. 7270-
7272.)
Mr. Nixon. I decline to respond and anaswer your question regard-
ing- this asserted release of the United Electrical and Radio and Ma-
chme Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. Have you been making reports from the Nation's capi-
tal to certain groups in Los Angeles from time to time ?
Mr. Nixon. Wouldn't you like to make that question a little more
precise, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Well, did yow make a report from the Nation's capital
to a little conference out in Los x^ngeles in April of 1956 ?
Mr. Nixon. It is still quite vague. Is that the best you can do?
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of making a report to a con-
ference in Los Angeles in April 1956, a Sixth Annual Conference to
Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend its Victims held in
Danish Auditorium in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Nixon. I should not have had to work so hard to make you be
specific. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I have already
stated.
Air. Akens. I lay before you now a document which is the program
and summary of [)roceedings of the Sixth Annual Conference to Repeal
tlie Walter-McCarran Law and Defend its Victims held in Los Angeles
in Danish Auditorium in which appears a keynote speech. Report
from the Nation's Capital, by Russ Nixon. Please tell this committee
whether or not you are that person and whether or not you made that
speech.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 102a-f," see appendix, pp. 7273-
7281.)
Mr. NixoN. I decline to answer that question about an asserted
speech I may have made on the gTOunds I have already stated to the
committee.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Victor Decavitch,
D-e-c-a-v-i-t-c-h?
Mr. NixoN. I decline to answer on the grounds already stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Decavitch identified you as a person who was known
by him to be a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he lying or
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. NixoN. I am not sure that I understand your use of the term
"Communist conspiracy.'' The man you used to work for. Senator
Eastland, says the Supreme Court decision on desegregation is a part
of the Communist conspiracy, and the man who opened these hearings
Iieie vesteida}^, Archibald Roosevelt, says that the ADA is a part of
the Communist conspiracy. So I don't know what you mean when
you use that term, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. What do you mean by the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Nixon. I am not going to discuss with you what I think about
that subject.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of tlie Connnunist Party?
?vlr. Nixon. You are repeating tlie (jnestion you asked me at the
beginning of the session.
Afr. Akens. I just wanted to make a distinction between the Com-
munist conspiracy and the Connnunist Party.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6279
Mr. Nixon. What are you doing? Are you asking me the question
you asked me or are you wondering something? I just want to be
precise, sir.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter-
rogation of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I think you would be interested in knowing that all
of the circulars you got out against me in my district were a great help
to me and swelled my majority to the greatest it has ever been.
Mr. Nixon. I am very sincerely sorry that is the result.
Mr. ScHERER. I have just one question.
The Chairman. I am sure of that, I don't want any Communist
support from you or anybody else.
Mr. ScHERER. The question counsel asked you, what was the witness'
name — Decavitch ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. When Mr. Decavitch identified you under oath as a
member of the Communist Party, was he telling the truth to this
committee?
Mr. NixoN. I think if you heard my answer to that same question
put by the counsel you will understand that my answer is, that I de-
cline to respond on the grounds that I have stated.
Mr. ScHERER. In your opening statement, witness, you talked about
allegations of witnesses before this committee whom you characterized
as "perjurious." Will you tell us in what respect any witness before
this committee lied about your activities in the Communist Party?
Mr. Nixon. I appreciate your asking me that question. It gives me
an opportunity to repeat what I did say and correct your impression.
I said I assert this fifth amendment privilege because I fear for myself
as well as others the invasion upon my liberty threatened by the com-
bination of the repressive thought-control legislation now in effect and
the allegations of perjurious witnesses.
Mr. ScHERER. All right, you said that there were allegations of per-
jurious witnesses before this committee. I am asking you
Mr. Nixon. Of course I didn't say that, Mr Scherer. I said what
I said I said. You can't make it something different. If you want to
ask me another question, that is all right ; but what I said is what I
Said. You can ask the reporter to repeat it to you if you wish, if you
don't trust my repetition.
Mr. ScHERER. I think I understand what you said.
Mr, Nixon. Very well.
Mr. Scherer, Do you claim, then, that you made no allegation in
your statement that there were perjurious witnesses before this com-
mittee ?
Mr, Nixon, I didn't happen to say anything about that subject, Mr,
Scherer, I said exactly what I said here. Do you want me to read it
a third time ? I would be very happy to do it,
Mr, Scherer, I want you to answer my question. You made no
charge, then, that there were allegations
Mr, Nixon, I said I did not discuss that question, sir. If you wish,
I will read the whole statement. I have time to do it.
Mr. Scherer. I^t me ask you, then : Is there any witness who testi-
fied before this committee who lied about voiir ('omnuniist activities?
6280 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Nixox. I will not discuss that subject before this committee, for
the reasons that I have already made very clear.
The Chairman. Anything more, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arexs. No more questions of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Emma Louise Mally.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but tlie truth, so help you God ?
Miss Mally. I swear.
TESTIMONY OF MISS EMMA LOUISE MALLY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, MILTON H. FRIEDMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occupa-
tion.
Miss Mally. Emma Louise Mally, 54 West 16th Street; occupation,,
writer.
Mr. Arens. Are j'ou appearing toda}^ in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities?
Miss Mally. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Miss Mally. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Friedman. Milton H. Friedman, F-r-i-e-d-m-a-n, New York.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs ?
Miss ALN.LLY. Miss Mally.
Mr. Arens. Miss Mally, I lay before you a photostatic reproduction
of a letterhead of the Committee to Defend Choon Clia and Chungsoon
Kwak (October 11, 1055), with the signature Louise Mally, secretary,
addressed to "Dear Friend,"' with reference to a deportation case, and
I ask you if you will kindly tell us if that is a correct reproduction of
your signature.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 103," see appendix, pp. 7281, 7282.)
Miss Mally. I know what you gentlemen think of these activities
designed to save the lives of fine and innocent people and no matter
what I think of them I decline to answer on the grounds th^t my answer
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, Miss Mally, that if you told this
committee the truth whether or not you are the secretary of the Com-
mittee to Defend Choon Cha and Chungsoon Kwak, you would he
supj)lying information wliicli might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
(Tlie witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Miss Mally. Are vou implving, sir. tliat mv answers are not
truthful?
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told me now whether
or not you have been secretary of this committee you Avould be giving
information which could be used against vou in a criminal proceeding?
•\ f ■\ m- Til* *
Miss Mally. 1 decline to answer on the gi-ounds that I gave, sir.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that last })rincipal question.
COMMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6281
The Chairman. Yes. You are directed to answer that question.
Miss Mally. Yes. I do honestly feel that.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Miss Malta'. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment, which i)rotects freedom of association; on the grounds of the
fifth amendment in that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Miss Mally, have you ever been an instructor at the
Jefferson School of Social Science ?
Miss Mally. I have.
Mr. Arens. Over what course of time were you an instructor there ?
Miss jVLa.lly. I think I began to teach in about 1943 or 1944, at the
time that the school was first formed, and I taught until approximately
1948. I taught poetry writing and Greek literature and translation.
I would like to ask you gentlemen if you feel that there is any reason
why poetry writing should not be taught, if you fear that students of
poetry might Avrite a Battle Hymn of the Republic or a new Marseil-
laise, if you fear that any one reading Greek literature and translation
might read the Trojan Women, the greatest antiwar play that has
ever been written in my opinion, and learn to protest against war and
the danger from the atomic bombs today ?
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while 3' ou
were teaching at the Jefferson School of Social Science?
Miss Mally. I have already declined to answer any questions per-
taining to membership in the Communist Party on the grounds that
the freedom of association is protected by the first amendment of our
Constitution and on the grounds of the fifth amendment, that that
answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. ScHERER. Witness, did you know at the time you were teaching
at the Jefferson School of Social Science that it was a Communist
school ?
Miss Mally. A Communist school, sir? I don't quite understand
the question. What is a Communist school?
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking you. You understand my question
perfectly.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mally. I don't believe that it was a Communist school.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you learn subsequently that it was controlled
and dominated by the Communist Party?
Miss Mally. I have had no such information.
Mr. Arens. Have you been an instructor likewise in the School for
Contemporary Writers?
Miss Mally. Yes, I think I taught one course there in poetry
writing.
Mr. Arens. Where was that?
Miss Mally. It was in New York. I forget where it was held.
Mr. Arens. Was that 87 East 19th Street?
Miss Mally. It might have been. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about when it was that you were an in-
structor there?
Miss Mally. It was probably 1947 or 1948. I don't remember.
Mr, Arens. At what other schools have you been an instructor be-
sides the Jefferson School and the School for Contem]30i-ary Writers?
Miss Mally. I have been an instructor in no other school to the best
of my recollection. I think I gave a lecture once at Columbia Uni-
6282 CORIMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
versity at the request of a professor who had to go to a funeral, on
mythology.
Mr. Arexs. Now I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of an
article appearing in PM, under date of April 30, 1947, which is a paid
advertisement in behalf of the 1947 Communist May Day celebrations,
in which there appear a number of people sponsoring the May Day
celebration including the name of one Louise Mally, and I ask you if
you have a recollection of lending your name to that cause.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 104," see appendix, p. 7283.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mally. Absolutely no recollection.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
The Chairman. Miss Mally, you were on this Committee To Defend
Choon Cha and Chungsoon Kwak?
Miss Mally. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairjian. You were secretary. Did you raise money in this
endeavor ?
Miss Mally. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Hoav long had these men been in the United States ?
Miss Mally. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. What were the grounds for the deportation ?
IMiss Mally. I beg your pardon ?
The Chairman. What were the grounds for deportation ?
Miss Mally. If I ever knew, and I probably did at one time
The Chairman. If you were secretary of the organization you
knew ; did you not ?
Miss Mally. Time passes very quickly and at times I have a rather
bad memory.
The CiTAiRM.' X. This was only a year ago, Miss Mally.
Miss IMally. I have had other things on my mind, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Miss Mally, I lay before you a photostatic copy of an
article from the Daily AVorker of May 14, 1947, which lists you as a
member of the Committee To Defend JDon West. Please look at that
article and tell us whether or not that identification is true or false.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 105," see appendix, p. 7284.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mally. I seem to have been honored in many cases that I don't
remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of being on that Committee
To Defend Don West?
Miss Mally. I have no recollection.
Mr. Arens. Wlio was Don West ; do you know ?
Miss Mally. I am not absolutely sure.
Mr. Arens. What is your best recollection ?
Miss Mally. I believe he is a minister in the South, but I don't
think I have ever even met him.
Mr. Arens. What was your connection with him; do you know"?
Miss Mally. I had no connection witli him. I don't think I have
ever even met him.
< OMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6283
Mr. Arens. "Nc'W I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article
from the Daily "Vv^orker of May 25, 1948, listing you as one of the
sponsors in protest against the anti-Communist Mundt bill when it
was in tlie House of Representatives. Please look at tliat and see if
that designation is true or false.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 106,'' see appendix, p. 7285.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
iNIiss Mally. I have no recollection of this, but I would certainly
have been glad to lend my name under the circumstances. I certainly
am opposed to such bills.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you the discussion outline for the fight
against the Mundt-Nixon bill issued by the national education depart-
ment of the Communist Party. Miss Mally, please examine that
document and tell us whether or not you have received that document
and utilized that in any activities hj yourself against the legislation
which 5'ou liave just alluded to.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 107,'" see appendix, pp. 7286-7289.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Mallt. I can't remember but in all probability I never saw
it and certainly never read it.
The Chairman. Let me interrupt at this point.
Miss Mally, I have been advised that these two Koreans for whom
you were interceding had been in the United States a few years and
Avere Communists, preaching communism and teaching communism,
and that is Avhy they were under deportation order. Did you know
tliat at the time you were on this committee ?
Miss Mally. I have no knowledge of their political affiliations, and
certainly they never preached anything to me.
The Chairman. I don't suppose that was necessary, but did you
know that they were Communists?
Miss Mally. I say I have no knowledge and had no knowledge of
their political affiliations. I never asked. I do not inquire about the
politics of people I know.
The Chairman. When you interceded in their behalf and organized
a committee in order to try to prevent their deportation, did you know
that they were under deportation order for advocating the overthrow
of the United States Government, these aliens?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss INIally. I have never heard that they were charged with plot-
ting the overthrow of the Government. I had heard that they were
opposed to the government of Syngman Rhee. That is why it was
dangerous for them to have been deported. As a matter of fact, it
would have meant their death by torture, I understood. It is gen-
erally acknowledged by many people of various political persuasions,
I should suppose, that the government of Syngman Rhee, that Syng-
man Rhee himself was a murderer. I knew these to be fine people.
That is all I knew about them. I kneAv that their lives were in danger.
The Chairman. Didn't you know that they were under deportation
to Europe, not to Korea? They came to the United States from
Europe.
Miss Mally. They were supposed to be depoi-ted to Sj'ngman Rhee's
government. They were not, fortunately. But this was the thing that
was being fought against, that their lives might not be in danger.
6284 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The CiiAiRMAx. You know all about that, but still you don't know
the grounds for deportation. Is that what you want us to understand ?
Miss Mally. The grounds, the actual ground for deportation I
remember now — I didn't a minute ago — was that they had overstayed
their leave in this country that, whatever the technical name is, had
been over-stayed. This was the technical grounds as presented, if I
am not mistaken, at the hearing of the deportation, whatever it is in
New York.
Mr. Arens. I lay before yon now a photostatic copy of an article
from the Daily Worker of October 18, 1948, in which you are identified
as one of 34 individuals described as protesting the conviction of the
officers of the Joint Anti-Fascist Eerugee Committee, for failure to
produce certain records before the House Committee on Un-American
Activities. Kindly look at that document and see whether or not that
description and characterization of you is true or false.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 108,'' see appendix, p. 7290.)
Miss Mali.y. I would certainly have protested that had I been in this
country at the time. On October 18, 1948, to the best of my recollec-
tion and belief, I was in Scotland.
Mr. Arens. Did you authorize the use of j'our signature ?
Miss Mally. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time protest the use of your signature by
the Communist group here in defending the Anti-Fascist Refugee
Committee ?
]\Iiss Mally. This is the first I knew that my signature wtis used.
I would not have protested.
Mr. Arens. It wouldn't make any difference to you whether you
were in Scotland or here anyway ; is that it ?
Miss Mally. I am merely stating the facts.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter to
the editor, appearing in the Compass in December 1949, a letter
ostensibly written by yourself, E. Louise Mally, for the Bookfair
Committee.
Kindly tell this committee what is the Bookfair Committee?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 109," see appendix, p. 7291.)
(The witness conferred wdth her counsel.)
Miss Mally. This was a committee to the best of my recollection —
and I did wa-ite that letter — which put on the sale of books, among
others a book by me.
Mr. Arens. Who were the officers of the group ?
Miss JNIally. I have forgotten.
Mr. Arens. Where was its headquarters ?
Miss Mally. Somewhere in New York.
Mr. Arens. What was your position with the committee ?
Miss Mally. I think somebody asked me to write a letter. I
don't think I had a position.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall who it was who asked you to write the
letter?
Miss Mally. No ; I do not.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the American Women for Peace
that traveled to Washington to demand the dismantling of atomic
bombs ?
Miss Mally. My concern, sir, has always been for peace.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6285
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question first, ma'am. Were you a
member of this American Women for Peace delegation that came to
Washington in 1950 ?
Miss IVLvLLY. I certainly demand the end of the atomic bomb and
the end of getting strontium 90 into the milk of our children with
cancer. But as far as American Women for Pe-ace or any other organ-
ization of this sort is concerned, I know what you think of these
activities which are designed to save the lives of all mankind, mid I
invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question.
Miss Mally. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you come to Washington in 1950 to protest the use
or to protest the development of the atom bomb by the United States
of America?
Miss Mally. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the American Women for
Peace?
Miss Mally'. I decline to answer on the ground that the answer
might tend to incriminate me. All women should protest.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker of June 8, 1949, contains an article
to the effect that the Civil Rights Congress of New York annomiced
that the imprisonment of the three Communist leaders has resulted in
scores of prominent individuals adding their names and support to
a Conference on Civil and Human Eights on Saturday, June 25.
Listed as one of the sponsors of this group is an E. Louise Mally.
Please look at that article and tell us whether or not j'ou were one of
the sponsors of this Civil Rights Congress to protest all these things.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 110," see appendix, p. 7292.)
It is my name. I have no recollection of it.
Mr. Arens. Did you in 1949 join in a delegation described in the
Daily Worker as trade-union leaders and cultural leaders, in pro-
testing the jailing of the Communist traitors who were tried by Judge
Medina ?
Miss Mally'. What do you mean by traitors, sir ?
Mr. Arens. The Communists who were convicted under the Smith
Act by Judge Medina for conspiring to overthrow the Government
of the United States by force and violence.
Miss Mally. Were they convicted as traitors ? I do not believe so.
Mr. Arens. Irrespective of what they were convicted of, did you
join in a protest against their jailing?
Miss Mally. I may have done so. I have no recollection.
Mr. Arens. Were you part of a delegation that called on Judge
Medina to try to protest this proceeding?
Miss Mally. I don't believe I ever saw Judge IMedina in my life.
Mr. Arens. Did you try to see him ?
Miss Mally'. I may liave. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. An article in the Daily Worker of October 1952 makes
reference to a delegation of the American Peace Crusade which called
on the U. N. delegates to bring an end to the slaughter in Korea and
for an immediate crease-fire. Were you a member of the American
Peace Crusade ?
(Document marked "Exhibit Xo. Ill," see appendix, pp. 7292,
7293.)
Miss MaUjY. I certainly supported all efforts to bring peace in the
world. I would support it today.
6286 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the American Peace Crusade?
Miss Mali.y. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that will conclude the staff interrogation
of this witness.
The Chairman. No questions.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Will Mr. Hugh Mulzac please come forward. Please
raise your right hand and be sworn.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Mulzac. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HUGH MULZAC, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Mulzac. Hugh Mulzac, M-u-1-z-a-c, 106-61 Kuscoe Street,
Jamaica, Long Island. Unemployed.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Mulzac. By counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Mulzac, are you a Communist ?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that question. I invoke the fifth
amendment, because I may incriminate myself.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Mulzac, I lay before you now a photostatic repro-
duction from the Lamp, page 2, which is the official publication of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. This edi-
tion is the March-April edition of 1954. Reference is made in the
upper right-hand corner of this page to a Conference To Repeal the
Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims and the establishment
of a New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Among
the officers elected was Capt. Hugh Mulzac, chairman. Please look
at that and tell us whether or not that is an accurate description of
yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 112," see appendix, p. 7294.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I see my name here.
Mr. Arens. Were you ? We don't want any perhaps about it. Were
you the chairman of this New York Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Mi'LZAc. I refuse to answer. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. MuTvZAC. Because I may incriminate myself.
Mr. Arens. Did you do anything wrong when you accepted the
chairmanship of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer whether I did anything wrong or
not. I refuse to answer on the same fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6287
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a reproduction of a letter con-
cerning a New York Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign
Born Americans, to be held March 19, 1955, under the auspices of the
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. The cochair-
man of this conference is one Capt. Hugh Mulzac. Is that an accu-
rate identification and description of yourself ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 113," see appendix, p. 7295.)
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. You are called Captain Mulzac ; aren't you ?
Mr. Mlklzac. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were a ship captain at one time ; were you not ?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of a
booklet issued by the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born entitled "The Walter-McCarran Law — Strait Jacket for
American Liberties."
Do you recognize that document as one of those which was pub-
lished under your auspices while you were chairman of the New York
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 114a, b," see appendix, pp. 7296,
7297.)
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that, and I invoke the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Is the Walter-McCarran law in your judgment, as chair-
man of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a
strait] acket for American liberties?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that also. I refuse to answer it
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered as a lobbyist ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. No, I am not registered.
Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in any activities desigTied to in-
fluence the passage of legislation ?
Mr. Mulzac. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you undertaken to cause the repeal of the Walter-
McCarran Immigration Act?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I invoke the fifth amendment. The answer I am mak-
ing now is the same as the previous answers I have made.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you the program for a conference on March
19, 1955, which was held under the auspices of the New York Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which are set forth the names of
a great number of people, probably three or four dozen people, all of
whom according to this pamphlet are facing deportation and are to be
honored by the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Please look at that list and tell us the name of a single one who wasn't
up for deportation because he was a Communist.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 115a-f," see appendix, pp. 7298-
7303.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that under the protection of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. The truth is, is it not, that every one of these ]>ersons
who was being honored by your committee was up for deportation be-
cause he was a Communist ?
Mr. Mulzac. I refuse to answer that. I don't know.
6288 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. This is a very interesting thing because it shows
that all of these aliens facing deportation had been residents of the
United States for a maximum of 51 years and a minimum of 17 years,
and none of them was a citizen of the United States. These are aliens
who were Communists and under deportation.
Mr. MuLZAC. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. I think it is about time the committee organized
a committee to protect the foreign born from alien agents instead of
the connnittee that you have.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document, which is a blank orig-
inal petition to the Congress of the United States, issued under the
auspices of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
in which this organization is attacking the Walter-McCarran law as
being one of police-state conditions, persecuting thousands of non-
citizens and threatening the Bill of Rights, and similar denunciations
of the law.
Did your organization send that petition to any of the Members of
the Congress of the United States ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 116," see appendix, p. 730-1.)
Mr. MuLZAC. I decline on the same grounds, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Captain, did you attend certain conferences to defend
the rights of the foreign born in 1954 ?
Mr. MuLZAc. I decline to answer that. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a summary of' the proceedings
of a National Conference to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans under date of December 1954, in which Capt. Hugh Mulzac
is chairman of the proceedings. Please tell us whether or not that
is an accurate description of yourself and of your participation in that
proceeding.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
Mr. Mtjlzac. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What is UNAVA, United Negro and Allied Veterans
of America, Inc. ? What is that organization ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
I do not know.
Mr. Arens. Aren't you a member of the board of the United Negro
and Allied Veterans of America, Inc. ?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of letter-
head of the United Negi'o and Allied Veterans of America, Inc.,
national headquarters, Washington, D. C, in which you are listed,
among others, as a member' of the national advisory board of that
organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 117," see appendix, p. 7305.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Did you join with a number of others in assailing the
arrest of the Comnnmisf Party leaders \\lio were tried in Foley
Square by Judge Medina ?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline under the fifth amendment to answer that.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Communist
Daily Worker of August 23, 1948, in which the article (entitled "Ne-
gro Leaders Assail Arrests of CP Leaders," pp. 3 and 11) lists a
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6289
number of people who joined in a statement protesting arrest of these
Communists, including Capt. Hugh Mulzac. Did you let your name
be used in that statement ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 118," see appendix, p. 7306.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that. I invoke tlie fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Why? Were you ashamed to do that?
Mr. Mulzac. Ashamed?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Needleman. Let him answer the question.
Mr. Arens. I will take care of myself here.
Mr. Needleman. I am taking care of the witness. You asked him
why.
Mr. Chairman, he asked him why and before he could answer he
posed another question. This man is over 70 years old. Mr. Chair-
man; this man is over 70 years old.
The Chairman. Just a moment. If you will both keep quiet we
will get this straightened out. Answer that first question.
Mr. Arens. Are you ashamed of the fact that you lent your name
to the petition on behalf of these Communists?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that question, under the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Where did you get the title "captain"?
Mr. Mulzac. Any man that is licensed by the United States Gov-
ernment as an oceangoing, seagoing captain has that title and the
title goes with him until he dies.
The Chairman. Did you have your certificate revoked ?
Mr. Mulzac. No.
The Chairman. You still have your certificate?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
The Chairman. Did the Coast Guard revoke your clearance ?
Mr. Mulzac. Yes.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Mulzac. Well, I think you had better find out from the Coast
Guard. I don't know.
The Chairman. I will tell you, it was because you were a Comnui-
nist; isn't that it i'.
Mr. Mi LZAC. 1 decline to answer that.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Arens. Who is Ferdinand Smith?
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Did you issue a statement in 1948 protesting the arrest
of Ferdinand Smith, the Communist secretary of the National Mari-
time Union, and saying, "P^very lionest American seaman has an
especially warm feeling for Smith"?
Mr. Mulzac. 1 decline to answer that nnder the fifth aineudnuMit.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily '\^'ork(n• of February 23, 11)48 (page 4) in'which you are
quoted as making that statement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 119," see appendix, p. 7307.)
Mr. Needleman. Mr. Chairman, so the record may be clear on sev-
eral questions, the witness simply said "I decline," and then something
else went on. I suppose it is understood it is on the fifth amendment.
6290 ' COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. It is understood that when he says "I declme" it is
because he is invoking the fifth amendment.
Mr. MuLzAc. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I la}^ before you now a photostatic copy of the original
letterhead, article, and signatures of the Conference on Peaceful Alter-
natives to the Atlantic Pact, under the date of August 21, 1949, includ-
ing the signature of Capt. Hugh Mulzac, and I ask you whether or not
you lent your si j;nature and name to that enterprise.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 120a-d," see appendix, pp. 7308-
7311.)
Mr. MuLZAC. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you been identified with the American Peace
Crusade ?
Mr. MuLZAC. I also decline to answer that invoking the fifth amend-
ment on that.
Mr. Arens. Did you call on the Secretary of the Army back in 1951
here in Washington leading a delegation of the American Peace
Crusade?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. MuLZAC. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. You have no recollection of that ?
Mr. MuLZAC. No. I have no recollection of that.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the Com-
mmiist Daily Worker of July 3, 1950 (p. 2) containing a ])icture of
yourself, Captain Mulzac, and Paul Kobeson, and the names of others
who w-ere in a rally sponsored by the Council on African Affairs,
protesting United States military action in Korea. Do you recall
doing that?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 121," see appendix, p. 7312.)
Mr. Mui.zAC. I decline to answer that, I refuse to answer that under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Citizens Emergency Defense
Conference?
Mr. MuLZAC. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. You are vice chairman of that organization; are you
not?
Mr. MuLZAc. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Just look at this letterhead of the Citizens Emergency
Defense Conference in which you are listed as vice chairman of the
Citizens Emergency Defense Conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 122," see appendix, p. 7313.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I decline to answer and I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the leaders in the fight against
screening of Communists by the Coast Guard ?
Mr. ^luLZAC. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of March 19, 1956 (p. 1) in wdiich you are identi-
fied as one of the rank leaders, chairman of a Seamen's Defense Com-
mittee which, in cooperation with the Emergency Civil Liberties
Committee, has been protesting and opj^osing the screening pro-
cedures of the Coast Guard. Please look at that and tell us whether
or not that is an accurate portrayal of your role in that organization.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 123," see appendix", p. 7314.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6291
Mr. MuLZAC. I refuse to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now in answer to the chairman's question a little while
ago I invite your attention to the New York Journal American, Sep-
tember 8, 1951 (p. 3), and see if this does not give an accurate descrip-
tion of yourself.
Hugh IMulzae, a merchant marine captain whose wartime career was widely
publicized by the Communist Party in its publications, has been refused further
maritime duties by the Coast Guard, it was learned today.
Declared a "bad security risk" by the Coast Guard, Mulzac, a Negro, may have
his master's license revoked after a hearing scheduled next month in Wash-
ington. * * *
Please look at that article and tell this committee whether or not
your license was revoked because you were a Communist and you
were a threat to the security of this country.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 124," see appendix, p. 7315.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mulzac. I am going to tell the committee this : My license is
not revoked. The Coast Guard hasn't proved anything against me,
and the Coast Guard cannot take my license away. I have been
suffering as a discriminated Negro ever since I came to this country,
and I would be less than a human being, less than a citizen, if I didn't
fight back for my rights. Some of these organizations that you are
talking about, if you think that I should not be in them, you should,
for instance, give me the right of a citizen in this country. Let me
have work to do.
The Chairman". Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Mulzac. I have to be a citizen to have a license as master of
an oceangoing vessel.
The Chairman. If you still have a license, why aren't you working?
Mr. MuLZAK. Because I am denied the privilege of working through
no fault of my own, through discrimination.
The Chairman. Are you a Communist ?
Mr. MuLzAK. I refuse to answer that question because
The Chairman. Because why ?
Mr. MuLZAK. I refuse to answer that question. I invoke the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Maybe that is the reason you are not working.
Mr. MuLzAK. Because I invoke the fifth amendment?
The Chairman. No, because you are a Communist. Is that the
reason?
Mr. MuLzAK. You are telling me I am a Communist? Have you
]^roved that I am one ?
The Chairman. We are not here to prove anything at all.
Mr. MuLzAK. Tliere you are.
Tlie Chairman. I was telling you why you may not be working.
ISIr. MuLzAK. I don't have to incriminate myself. I am not that
stupid to do that.
The Chairman. I understand that all right.
Mr. Arens. No further questions of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Have you another witness?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Alec Jones, please come forward.
Please remain standing while the Chairman administers the oath
to you.
6292 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr, Jones. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALEC JONES. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Akens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Jones. My name is Alec Jones. I live at ii'2'2 ^Yest 114th
Street, New York City. So far as my occupation is concerned, I
would like to avail myself of the privilege given to me under the
fiith amendment and the Bill of Rights of the United States
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present job ?
Mr. Jones. Three years.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel today ?
Mr. Jones. That is wrong. A year and a half.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel today ?
Mr. Jones. I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself.
Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Xeedleman, 105 Broadwav, New York
N. Y.
Mr. Arens. This subpena which requires your presence here today
requires you also to bring certain documents, does it not, Mr. Jones ?
Mr. Jones. I believe it does.
Mr. Arens. Are you the custodian of the documents called for in
the subpena duces tecum ?
Mr. Jones. I am not.
Mr. Arens. Do you have access to those documents ?
Mr. Jones. I am not.
Mr. Arens. Who does have access to those documents ?
Mr. Jones. At this point I can't say. I don't Imow.
Mr. Arens. Who is secretary of the New York Coimiiittee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Jonp:s. No one.
Mr. Arens. Wlio is the chairman of the New York Connnittee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Jones. No one. It is out of business.
Mr. Arens. When did it go out of business ?
Mr. Jones. To the best of my recollection, about 13 or 11 months
ago.
Mr. Arens. Were you connected with the New York Connnittee for
Protection of Foreign Born before it went out of business ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Conmiunist?
Mr. Jones. Again I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What caused the New York (>)nnnittee for Protection
of Foreign Born to go out of business, do you know *
Mr. Jones. I decline to answer tlvat question, again availing myself
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did it ffo underground?
CO^IMIJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6293
Mr. Jones. I decline again on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. "V^Hiere and when were you born ?
Mr. Jones. Boston, Mass. Did you ask me when or where?
Mr. Ahens. Both.
Mr. Jones. You didn't. You asked me one. 1923.
Mr. Arens. And give us a word about your education.
Mr. Jones. I went to school in Boston, the University of Minnesota-.
That is it.
Mr. Arens. 'V^Hien did you graduate from the University of
Minnesota ?
Mr. Jones. I left the University of Minnesota, I believe it was in
1947.
Mr. Arens. And tell us your occupation after your graduated from
the University of Minnesota.
Mt. Jones. I avail myself of the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is there any period in your life since the time you
graduated from the University of Minnesota concerning which you
can tell this committee about your employment without giving in-
formation that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness conferred with Ms coimsel.)
Mr. Jones. I worked for the CIO in Minnesota.
Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you worked for the CIO
in IMinnesota ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you been the author of certain treatises, works,
certain magazine articles during your career ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
entitled "Kacist Law Begins To Grind — The infamous McCarran-
Walter immigration law threatens the right of noncitizens and nat-
uralized citizens and ultimately of all of us," by Alec Jones. This
appears in Jewish Life under date of December 1952. Did you author
that article attacking this legislation by the Congress as an infamous
piece of legislation ?
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 125a, b," see appendix, pp. 7316,
7317.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What have you done from the standpoint of undertak-
ing to affect legislation by the Congress ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I think the record should show at this point, if you
please Mr. Chairman, that the publication in which this article ap-
pears has been cited as a Communist publication.
Mr. Jones, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Communist
Daily Worker of February 23, 1953 (p. 8). Look down here, if
you please, at the lower right-hand corner which identifies you,
Alec Jones, as assistant national secretary of the Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. Were you assistant national secretary of
the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born on February 23, 1953?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 126," see appendix, p. 7318.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I direct your attention, if you please, Mr. Jones,
to The Lamp, of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, of April 1954 (March-April 1954, p. 2), in which reference
85333— 57— pt. 1 11
6294 COJVIMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
is made to a delegation being sent to Washington for the purpose of
doing certain things to affect the immigration system of this country.
Among others who were :n this delegation is Alec Jones, executive
secretary of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom.
(See exhibit No. 112, appendix, p. 7294.)
Mr. Arens. Please look at that document and tell us whether or not
that is a true and accurate description of your activities.
Did you come to "Washington in 1954?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Did you come to Washington at any time in connection
with a conference on legislation ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
IMr. Aeens. Now I lay before you, if you please, a photostatic copy
of the letterhead of the New York Conference To Repeal the Walter-
McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims (dated January 21, 1954)
You appear as one of the officials of this organization. Please look
at this document and tell us whether or not you are properly listed
here as the secretary of this organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 127," see appendix, p. 7319.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you the head of the Fight Back Rally in defense
of the American Committee for Protection of Foi-eign Born held in
May 1955?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter of May
19, 1955, of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
with your name signed here as executive secretary. Please look at that
and tell this committee whether or not that is an accurate description
of yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 128a, b," see appendix, pp. 7320,
7321.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now look at this document: Walter-McCarran Law
Police-State Conditions, The Story Behind the Story, issued by the
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Did you
prepare this docuinent or have anything to do with its distribution?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 129," see appendix, p. 7322.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Here is still another document : New York Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, for Release, Executive Secretary
Alec Jones.
Look at that document and tell us Avliether or not tliat is or.e of
the publications of your coramittee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 130," see appendix, p. 7323.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to a docu-
ment which is the March of' Labor for May 1952, in which there is
an article by Alec Jones, entitled "Deportation for Dissent. Union
Building Is Their Crime," which is a vigorous attack against the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6295
immigration laws by one Alec Jones. Let's tell this committee
whether or not that is the article which you wrote.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. laia-c," see appendix, pp. 7324-
7326.)
Mr. Jones, I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Who is the deportee ?
Mr. Arens. In this particular article there are a great number that
he alludes to here, all of whom we have checked and found to be
members of the Communist conspiracy.
The Chairman. It is certainly significant that they never lift a
finger for those poor white slavery and poor dope peddlers and other
poor fellows, only for Communists.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you still another document entitled
"The Walter-McCarran Law — Strait Jacket for American Liberties,"
issued by the New York Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born,
of which you have been identified as the executive secretary. Please
tell us whether or not you had a hand in preparing that pamphlet.
(See exhibit No. 114a, b, appendix, pp. 7296, 7297.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself oi the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. According to the Daily People's World, the Commu-
nist publication of the west coast, in 1953 you sent a letter in to the
People's World (February 20, 1953, p. 5) praising them in their
campaign for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran law. Please look at
this exhibit and see if you recall sending that letter which is attrib-
uted to you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 132," see appendix, p. 7327.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to a repro-
duction of an article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker
(Feb. 25, 1954, p. 5) by one Alec Jones, entitled "Conference Saturday
Will Map Fight on Walter-McCarran Law." Why don't you tell
this committee now what you did to map this fight on the Walter-
McCarran law in the interest of humanity, as you indicate in your
article ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 133," see appendix, p. 7328.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you still another article under your
authorship: "Action-plan on McCarran-Walter." A plan of action
must be taken to repeal the McCarran-Walter Act and to defend its
victims, all being done under the auspices of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and its affiliate groups. This
article appears in Jewish Life, by Alec Jones (January 1954 issue,
p. 14). Please look at that and tell us whether or not you recall being
the author of that article.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 134," see appendix, p. 7329.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to an article in the Bea-
con with respect to the activities of the New York Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, of which you were the executive secre-
tary. At the left-hand column of this page we see a number of peo-
Sle indicated here as participants in various committees created by the
few York Committee. We see a Yugoslav Committee, a Greek Com-
mittee, a Ukrainian Committee, a Finnish Committee, a Rose Nelson
Committee and a Sons and Daughters Committee, all to be stimu-
86333—57 11
6296 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
lated to write and visit their Congressmen for the repeal of the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act.
Please look at that now and tell the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities if you know of the existence of such organizations al-
luded to in that publication.
(See exhibit No. 23b, appendix, p. 7122, Y123.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Aeens. The fact is that your committee and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born have created hundreds of such
organizations, fronts in front of this front, all for the purpose of de-
stroying this law. Is that not true ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to the
Daily Worker of February 14, 1956 (p. 8) in which it talks about
a new committee being formed, the Keller Defense Committee, which
was formed to defend a man by the name of James Keller, formed
out in Chicago, all under the auspices of Alec Jones, education direc-
tor of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, who
was going to be one of the speakers. Look at that article and tell this
committee whether or not that is a true and accurate representation
of your participation in that conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 135," see appendix, p. 7330.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What is the Sons and Daughters Defense Committee?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You participated in the creation of a Sons and Daugh-
ters Defense Committee, did you not ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that you did, on behalf of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, participate in
the formulation of an organization known as a Sons and Daughters
Defense Committee for the purpose of emasculating the Walter-Mc-
Carran Immigration and Nationality Act.
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You have done a great deal of traveling in the last year
or two, have you not ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness at this point be
ordered and directed to answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I have done a lot of traveling.
Mr. Arens. You have been in most of the States of the Union in
the course of the last few years in the pursuit of this work that you
can't tell us about?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. How many States?
Mr. Arens. Yes, about how many States, pretty well over the
Union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Jones. I have traveled about. I don't know how many States.
Mr. Arens. Has this traveling been in pursuance of the work that
you are engaged in or has it been travel for pleasure ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6297
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document with reference to
your participation in the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in 1953. Look at the document and tell us whether or not
that is a true representation of your activities in that regard.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 136," see appendix, p. 7331.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document with respect to the
Midwest Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend
the Rights of Foreign Born Americans, in which, according to this
conference program Mr. Alec Jones, educational director of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, is to give a
report. Look at that and tell us whether or not you participated in
that program.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 137," see appendix, p. 7332.)
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Joseph Forer? Do you know him?
Mr. Jones. I know him. He is a lawyer.
Mr. Arens. And David Rein ? Do you know him ?
Mr. Jones. I know him also.
Mr. Arens. Did your organization, the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, hold a testimonial banquet for Mr.
Joseph Forer and David Rein under date of March 1956 ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. October 1956 as indicated by this exhibit?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 138," see appendix, pp. 7333-
7349.)
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter
from yourself to Mr. Seymour Kaplan, banquet manager, Hotel Bel-
mont Plaza, enclosing a check for $100 for a testimonial dinner for
Thursday, October 11, 1956. Please tell this committee for whom
that testimonial dinner was to be held.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 139," see appendix, p. 7350.)
Mr. Jones. I refuse to answer. I avail myself of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in a National Conference of De-
portee Defense Committees in Chicago in 1951 ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you create or participate in the creation of the
Minneapolis Joint Committee Against Deportation ?
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the creation of the Tony Sentner
Defense Committee ?
Mr. Jones. I avail m3^self of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Bom?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr, Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Resnikoff Defense Committee?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
6298 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. The American-Polish Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Jones. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Committee for Protection of Greek- Americans ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Finnish-American Freedom Committee?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Lithuanian-American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Czechoslovak Committee for Protection of Foreign
Bom?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Hungarian-American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Harisiades-Taffler Neighborhood Defense Com-
mittee ?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. The American- Yugoslav Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Jones. The same answer,
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that, in each and every one of these instances of organizations
and committees, you were one of the founding fathers of the
organizations.
Mr. Jones. I avail myself of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Anything further, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. Will Miss Belle Bailynson come forward, please, and
remain standing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are
about to give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Bailynson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS BELLE BAILYNSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, DAVID SCRIBNER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by residence and occupation.
Miss Bailynson. My name is Belle Bailynson. I live at 1425 Third
Avenue, New York. I work in a factory. I am a wirer and solderer.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Miss Bailynson. I am.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6299
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel. Will counsel identify
himself ?
Mr. ScRiBNER. David Scribner, of 9 East 40th Street, New York
City.
Mr.. Arens. Miss Bailynson, I show you a photostatic copy of the
official publication of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born entitled, "The Lamp," February-March 1951 (p. 2),
in which we see an article entitled "Prominent Women Organize Na-
tional Women's Appeal." A National Women's Appeal for the Rights
of Foreign Born Americans was organized and Belle Bailynson is iden-
tified in this article as national secretary. Kindly look at that photo-
static copy of that article and tell this committee whether or not that
is a true and accurate identification of yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 140," see appendix, p. 7351.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee whether
or not you were the national secretary of the National Women's Appeal
for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans you would be supplying
information which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Miss Bailynson. It might.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Miss Bailynson. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of William Wallace ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. William Wallace told this committee that he knew
you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Miss Bailynson. Fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Miss Bailynson, I direct your attention to the original
copy of an article from the Communist Daily Worker of January
1951 (January 19, 1951, p. 8). I lay it before j^ou now. You will note
that the article states that certain individuals were officers of a newly
formed National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans. Can you tell us about that organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 141," see appendix, p. 7352.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you an original of a receipt of the
National Women's Appeal, a receipt for $25 to one Uta Hagen, and
ask you if you have knowledge of the process by which Miss Hagen
made a contribution to the National Women's Appeal.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 142," see appendix, p. 7353.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to an original check signed
by Uta Hagen, which is endorsed by the National Women's Appeal and
then has a subsequent endorsement by the American Committee for
Protection- of Foreign Born, and ask you if the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born has an interlocking relationship with
the National Women's Appeal.
(See exiiibit 24, appendix, p. 7126.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you an original article from the Comnmnist
Daily Worker (May 18, 1951, p. 3) entitled "Women Visit Capital,
6300 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Assail McCarran Drive," with reference to a number of women in a
delegation who came to Washington, according to this article, to pro-
test certain of the provisions of the Internal Security Act against
Communists and who protested against the Commissioner of Immi-
gration with reference to the imminent deportation of about 170 per-
sons and ask you if you were a participant in that movement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 143," see appendix, p. 7354.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to a document (photostatic
copy of p. 2 of The Lamp, October-November, 1951) with reference
to the National Women's Appeal conducting a campaign for certain
aliens and ask you if you will kindly identify that document for us.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 144," see appendix, p. 7355.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Did the National Women's Appeal of which you were
the national secretary hold a reception in the Jewish Cultural Center
in 1951 in Detroit?
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the program
of that reception in 1951 in Detroit and ask you if you will kindly
identify it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 145a, b," see appendix, pp. 7356,
7357.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee how many people are in National
Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Wliat have you done in the course of the last few years
to assert your views on legislative matters ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a document of the National Wo-
men's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans entitled
"Save Them From Banishment and Death" in which the recipient is
urged to write to Congressmen urging them to "support the repeal of
the Walter- McCarran Law" and "help repeal the modern 'Alien and
Sedition' Law — the Walter- McCarran Act. Halt the persecution of
foreign born. Safeguard and maintain the American home and fam-
ily" against the attacks of those who are undertaking to enforce this
act.
Kindly tell this committee whether or not you had a hand in pre-
paring that publication of the National Women's Appeal.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 146a-d," see appendix, pp. 7358-
7361.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline under the fifth amendment privilege.
The Chairman. Let me see that.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a woman by the name of Miriam Doyle?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Miriam Doyle replaced you as the national secretary of
the National Women's Appeal, did she not?
Miss Bailynson. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now the original article taken from
the Communist Daily Worker of May 1953 (May 12, p. 6) in which
there appeared a letter from Miriam Doyle, executive secretary of the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6301
National Women's Appeal and see if that refreshes your recollection
with reference to your successor.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 147," see appendix, pp. 7362,
7363.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline on the same grounds previously stated.
Mr. Aeens. Have you been identified with the Civil Rights Con-
gi-ess ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to the Communist Daily Worker
of October 1948 (October 27, p. 7) in which one Belle Bailynson is
scheduled to address the election canvassers on a program called
"Help Put Out Our Reichstag Fire" in which William L. Patterson
("National Executive Secretary, Civil Rights Congress") is to par-
ticipate, and in which John Gates, one of the 12 indicted Communist
Party leaders, is to participate, and in which one Belle Bailynson
("United Electrical Workers Union Org.") is listed as a speaker and
I ask you if that was a correct designation of yourself as an affiliate
of that group.
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the United Electrical Workers?
Miss Bailynson. Not any longer.
Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with them ?
Miss Bailynson. Yes, I have.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?
Miss Bailynson. I was a member of the union.
Mr. Arens. Did you hold any office or post ?
Miss Bailynson. I was the organizer of activities of the local I
belonged to.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat local was that?
Miss Bailyson, It was local 430 in the UE. It isn't any longer.
Mr. Arens. Wliere was that located ?
Miss Bailynson. In Manhattan.
Mr. Arens. What type of work were the workers engaged in in
that particular local ?
Miss Bailynson. Radio, television, and transformer parts and vari-
ous other things.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently affiliated with UE ?
Miss Bailynson. No, I am not.
Mr. Arens. Did you have to sign a non-Communist affidavit when
you were with UE ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that for the reasons given
previously.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, she be directed
to answer that question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Scribner. Wliat was the question ?
Mr. Arens. I asked if she signed the non-Communist affidavit.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Bailyson. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. In that affidavit what did you say ?
Miss Bailynson, I signed the affidavit which stated I was not a
member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Was it truthful ?
Miss Bailynson. I signed the affidavit.
6302 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Was it truthful?
Miss Bailynson. It was.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
signed that affidavit?
Miss Bailynson. I just answered that it was truthful affidavit.
Mr. Arens. When did you sign it ?
Miss Bailynson. I signed it on September 10, 1951.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party any time
during 1951 ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Sep-
tember 9, 1951 ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Sep-
tember 11 ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Arens. Did you resign from the Communist Party for 1 day
in order to be able to sign the non-Communist affidavit?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline when you
signed the non- Communist affidavit?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Did the witness testify as to her membership in
the National Women's Appeal for the Eights of Foreign Born Ameri-
cans?
Mr. Arens. She invoked the fifth amendment.
Miss Bailynson, Have you been identified with a trade union coun-
cil or conference for Negro rights under date of 1950?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that under the privilege of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a call to a
National Trade Union Conference (June 10 and 11, 1950) held for
Negro rights under the auspices, among others, of the Harlem Trade
Union Council, in which you are listed as one of the initiating spon-
sors, and ask you whether or not that is a correct and accurate and
truthful designation,
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 148a-d," see appendix, pp. 7364-
7367.)
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in the cause of peace in the course
of the last few years ?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. You have been identified as a leader of the American
Women for Peace.
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a page of
the Communist Daily Worker of October 23, 1960 (p. 1), in which
you are identified with the Women for Peace and ask if that is a
truthful and accurate designation.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 149," see appendix, p. 7368.)
COMMl^-IST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6303
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer on the same grounds as pre-
viously stated,
Mr. Arens. In the course of the last few years have you been doing
a good deal of speaking around on behalf of various groups and or-
ganizations in New York City?
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer that on the same ground pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you activities director of local 430 of UE?
Miss Bailynson. I was.
Mr. Arens. And, as activities director of local 430 of UE, did you
address certain groups in defense of the Communists who were being
tried at Foley Square in New York ?
Miss Bailynson. Anything I did as activities director of local 430
of UE I did with the knowledge of the executive board and the ap-
2)roval of the membership, which was generally done as a result of dis-
cussion with the membership.
Mr. Arens. That doesn't answer the question. Please tell the com-
mittee whether or not, as activities director of UE Local 430 in New
York, you did make speeches before rallies in New York City on be-
half of the 12 Communists who were being tried or were tried in New
York City.
Miss Bailynson. I decline to answer- that on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have j'ou ever been registered under the Lobbying Act?
Miss Bailynson. No; I have not.
Mr. Arens. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. We still have one more.
Mona Schneider, please.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? Do you swear
the testimony you are about to give this committee will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Jones. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MONA SCHNEIDER JONES, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Jones. My name is Mona Schneider Jones. I live at 622 West
114th Street, New York City. I am a recreation therapist.
Mr. Arens. "Wliere are you employed ?
Mrs. Jones. In New York City.
Mr. Arens. "VVliere is the recreational organization which employs
you, the name of the place, please ?
Mrs. Jones. It is a hospital at 68th Street and New York Avenue.
Mr. i^RENS. Are you secretaiy of the Sons and Daughters of the
Foreign Born?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^Irs. Jones. No; I am not.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been secretary of the Sons and Daughters
of the Foreign Born ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^304 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Jones. I will have to decline to answer that question because
I believe it violates the spirit and letter of the first amendment to
the Constitution, and I also have to decline to answer that question
under the protection, historical and moral protection, afforded me
under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Was this organization a Communist organization ?
Mrs, Jones. I shall have to decline to answer that question on the
basis stated previously.
Mr. Arens. Is that organization still in existence ?
Mrs. Jones. No, it is not.
Mr. Arens. When did it cease to be in existence ?
Mrs. Jones. It has been out of existence for more than 2 years,
approximately 2 years or more, even.
Mr. Arens. And how long was it in existence when it did exist?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. About 2 years, approximately.
Mr. Arens. Where was it headquartered ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. Would you repeat that, please ?
Mr. Arens. Where was it headquartered.
Mrs. Jones. It was an informal group, but if you can speak of
headquarters, it met at the offices of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Was it an affiliate of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I will have to decline to answer that question on the
basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. How do you know it met at the headquarters of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Jones. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest she said it met at the headquar-
ters of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
She volunteered that information. I think she should be required
to answer the question as to how she knew it met at the headquarters
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Who were the officers of the Sons and Daughters of
the Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis before mentioned.
Mr. Arens. How many members were there in the Sons and
Daughters of the Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. Was any member of your family ever up for
deportation ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis mentioned previously.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jones
The Chairman. Just a moment.
I direct you to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer the question on the same basis
mentioned previously.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6305
Mr. Arens. Are you related to any witness who has testified here
today ?
(The witness conferred with her counseh)
Mrs. Jones. Yes, I am.
Mr. Abens. And to whom are you related ?
Mrs. Jones. Mr. Jones.
Mr. Arens. That is Alec Jones?
Mrs. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Arens. You are his daughter ?
Mrs. Jones. No, I am liis wife.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mrs. Jones. I should think you would, if a lady may have that
prerogative.
Mr. Arens. How come you used the name Schneider and he uses
Mrs. Jones. That is my maiden name. You asked me to identify
myself and I did as Mona Schneider Jones.
Mr. Arens. I see.
I lay before you, Mrs. Jones, a photostatic copy of the Lamp, which
is the official publication of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born (October-November-December 1952 issue) in which
there is an article describing a new youth organization, the Sons and
Daughters of the Foreign Born in the Fight Against Deportation,
and among others is listed Mona Schneider as secretary of the group
and Evelyn Barnett as treasurer.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 150," see appendix, p. 7360.)
I ask you if that is a correct and accurate designation of youi*self^
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of still another
document — "We are the Sons and Daughters of the Foreign Born.
Help us fight for our future. Write the Attorney General and others,"
the Statue of Liberty, a quotation of Emma Lazarus, and other appeal-
ing phrases — all issued soliciting response by the recipient.
1 ask you if you participated in the formulation of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 151a-c," see appendix, pp. 7370-
7372.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a reproduction of a letter of
the Sons and Daughters of the Foreign Born in the Fight Against
Deportation, with the name of Mona Schneider, as secretary, calling
upon the friends who are the recipients to do all they can to obtain
information against the Smith and Walter-McCarran Acts and to
mobilize large sections of young people for their repeal and to work
with certain groups to stop the hysteria deportation attacks under the
Walter-McCarran Act. I ask you if that is a document which you
prepared.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 152," see appendix, p. 7373.)
Mrs. Jones. I will have to decline on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to still another document,
a photostatic copy of the Communist Daily Worker for December 11,
1952 (pp. 3 and 6), with reference to a meeting at which you Sjjoke
at Webster Hall. It was a meeting called to cliallenge the Walter-
McCarran Act. I ask you if you have a recollection of making that,
address.
6306 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 153," see appendix, pp. 7373,
7374.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1951 did you accompany a group from New York
City that visited the capital to fight the Walter-McCarran Act and
to fight deportations under the International Security Act ?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In 1953 did you take another little trip down to Wash-
ington as a member of the children of McCarran law victims ?
Mrs. Jones. Would you read that over again ?
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now the original article from the Com-
munist Daily Worker of March 26, 1953, page 3, in which are listed
the leaders of a group who came to Washington to protest the threat-
ening nature of the Walter-McCarran Act, how it is breaking up
families and all of the infamous things which it, according to this
article, was doing, and I ask you if that prompts your recollection.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 154," see appendix, pp. 7374,
7375.)
Mrs. Jones. No. I shall have to decline to answer that question
for the same reasons and on the same basis previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told the truth with respect
to your activities legislative-wise you would be supplying information
which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Jones. Possibly could.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mrs. Jones. No, I have not.
Mr. Arens. Has your organization registered under the Lobbying
Act?
Mrs. Jones. No, it has not.
Mr. Arens. In 1952 did you attend a conference in Detroit?
Mrs. Jones. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Were you in Detroit at all in 1952?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jones. I may have been. I do not remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of a conference in Detroit
to defend the rights of foreign born Americans in which you partici-
pated on a youth panel ?
Mrs. Jones. I am afraid I shall have to decline to answer that ques-
tion for the same reason and on the same basis stated before.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
Mrs. Jones. I shall have to decline to answer that question for the
same reasons and on the same basis as stated before.
The Chairman. Do you decline ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes, I do decline on the same basis and for the same
I'easons.
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. The committee is now adjourned to meet tomor-
row at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5 p. m. the committee was recessed, to reconvene
at 10 a. m. Wednesday, November 14, 1956.)
C0M31UNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBEK, 14, 1956
United States House of Eepresentatives,
subcommiitee of the
Committee on Un-American AcTi\TriES,
Washington^ D. G.
PUBLIC HExiRING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the Caucus Room, Old House Office
Building, Hon. Francis E. Walter, chairman, presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of
Pennsylvania, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Stati' members present: Richard Arsns, director and Donald T.
Appell, investigator.
The Chairman. The coumiittee will be in order.
Call your first witness, please, ]\Ir. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Will Mr. Rotenberg please come forward.
Mr. A. Harry Levitan. Whom did you call? Mr. Sol Rotenberg?
I saw him in the corridor. JMay I call him, please ?
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mr. Levitan. I am Mr. Levitan, his attorney. I saw him a moment
ago and spoke to him. I ask that you pass him for a moment, sir. I
am sure he is here.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Levitan. Where would you prefer to have the witness?
The Chairman. Raise your right hand, sir.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rotenberg. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SOL ROTENBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
A. HARRY LEVITAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- .
pation.
Mr. Rotenberg. My name is Sol Rotenberg. I live at 29 East Tul-
pehocken Street, Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation, please ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I am an insurance agent.
Mr. Arens. For what company?
Mr. Rotenberg. Oh, I write for a number of companies.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rotenberg, you are appearing today in respond.- to
a subpena w^hich w^as served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
G307
6308 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. KoTENBERG. I received a subpena, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. KoTENBERG. I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself.
Mr. Levitan. I am A. Harry Levitan, L-e-v-i-t-a-n, with offices at
1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Kotenberg, please tell us where and when you were
born.
Mr. Kotenberg. I was born in Philadelphia, October 9, 1911.^
Mr. Arens. And give us, if you would, please, sir, a brief resume
of your education.
Mr. Kotenberg. I went to the Philadelphia public schools, grammar
school, and high school.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete your education at high school ?
Mr. Kotenberg. 1929.
Mr. Arens. Now give us, if you please, just a thumbnail sketch
of the principal employments which you have had since you termi-
nated your formal education.
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Kotenberg. Since I graduated high school in 1929, I have
worked at many jobs in the last 27 years.
Mr. Arens. Just give us the principal employments you have had.
Mr. Kotenberg. I believe this is a matter which does not neces-
sarily require an answer from me because of the fact that I don't
believe it has anything to do with my appearance here, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. What is your reason for not answering the
question ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Kotenberg. I would say, sir, that I would respectfully decline
to answer that question on the grounds of the constitutional
amendments.
The Chairman. On which one are you relying ?
Mr. Kotenberg. On the first and fifth, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, you take the position that if you
would answer the question as to any of your employments you might be
prosecuted criminally ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel).
Mr. Kotenberg. I have already given my reason, sir.
The Chairman. All right. I direct that you answer the question.
Mr. Le\t[tan. Will you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Arens. The question was simply a request that the witness
kindly tell the committee the principal employments he has had since
completing his formal education.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Kotenberg. I would say, sir, that I would rest on my previous
answer.
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment. Xow I ask, Mr. Chairman, that the
witness be directed to answer your question ; namely, whether or not
he feels that to answer as to his employment might tend to lead to a
criminal prosecution.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6309
The Chairman. Yes. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that an answer to the question
as to my previous employment I believe involves an intrusion upon
the freedom of association which is guaranteed in the first amendment
to the Constitution.
The Chairman. We are not asking you about your associations.
Mr. Levitan. May he continue his answer, please ? And ?
Mr. Eotenberg. And, secondly, I would also invoke the guaranty
of the fifth amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits the
elicitation of testimony from someone where it might possibly lead
to some criminal prosecution.
The Chairman. In other words, you are fearful that if you
answered the question as to your employment since you left school
up to the present time, you might be prosecuted criminally?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenrerg. I have already answered that question.
The Chairman. What is your answer, "Yes" or "No" ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I have answered it previously.
The Chairman. Answer it again.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, to summarize my previous answer,
that I rely on the first amendment, with respect to the freedom of
association, and the fifth amendment, with respect to the possibility
of any testimony being given that might possibly lead to some criminal
prosecution.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present
occupation ?
Mr. Rotenberg. About 2 years, sir.
Mr. Arens. And what was your employment immediately prior to
your present occupation ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would decline to answer that question for the
reasons previously given.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of a
nominating petition for the Communist Party, in which appear a
number of signatures, including the signatures of one Sol Rotenberg.
Kindly look at the document and tell us whether or not that is your
signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 155," see appendix, p. 7376.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I would decline to answer that question, sir, on
the grounds of the first and fifth amendments, which f^uarantee the
rights of freedom of association and the refusal to give testimony
which might lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rotenberg, eacli witness before this committee is
allowed certain expense money and allowed a per diem. In order
to receive that, it is necessary that he sign a voucher. We have a
voucher prepared here for you, and I request that you now at this
time opposite the word "payee" affix your signature.
(The witness conferred wi(h liis counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I decline for the reasons already given.
Mr. Arens. Do you decline to sign the pay voucher pursuant to
which you would oe receiving the per diem and your expenses for
your appearance before the committee today ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 12
6310 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX
Mr. RoTENBERG. At tliis time, I would decline to sign the voucher
for the same reasons already given. I understand from the rules of
the committee and the booklet which was handed to me by the Federal
marshal that the payment of the per diem and the expense voucher
is to be done, after testimony has been completed, in the office of the
clerk of the committee.
The Chairman. The marshal told you that?
]Mr. RoTENBERG. No; it is printed in the rules, sir, of the procedure
of the committee. I happened to glance through those rules and
noticed that this was the procedure.
The Chairman. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, if you please, sir, a photostatic
copy of a portion of the catalog of the Philadelphia School of Social
Science and Art for the fall of 1944, and ask you kindly to look at
that catalog, particularly that portion which sets forth a lecture to be
given on the Problems and Perspectives of the Jewish People by
one Sol Rotenberg, and tell us whether or not you are the Sol Roten-
berg alluded to in that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 156," see appendix, p. 7377.)
(The witness conferred with his comisel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I will decline to answer that question, sir, for the
reasons previously given on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. May I see the document ?
Mr. Arens. Shall I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Yes. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Rotenberg, I lay before you a photostatic
copy of an annuoncement of a celebration on the occasion of the
fourth anniversary of the American Youth for Democracy, a ban-
quet held at the Benjamin Franklin Hotel on November 18, 1947, and
ask you if you will kindly look at that and tell this committee whether
or not you are the Sol Rotenberg listed here as one of the sponsors of
that occasion.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 157a-c," see appendix, pp. 7378-
7380.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. Do you mean, sir, on the second page where there
is a list of names, Marc Chagall and Reverend Cunningham and
Reverend Logan et cetera, in this list '^
There are several pages liere.
Mr. Arens. Excuse me. Counsel.
I am alluding to the second page of the document where there
appears under the title "Sponsors," the name of Sol Rotenberg, and
I ask you if you are he.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, on the basis of the first amend-
ment, which protects the right of freedom of association and the fifth
amendment, which prevents the necessity of giving testimony which
may lead to a criminal prosecution, I would decline to answer the
question.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, if you please, sir, to a document
which is a call to a Bill of Rights conference to be held in New York
City in July 1949 — July 16-17 — in which a number of persons are
listed as sponsors, including a person identified here as Sol Rotenberg,
co:mmunist political subversion 6311
of Philadelphia, Pa. Kindly look at that and tell us whether or not you
were a sponsor of that conference.
^See exhibit 62d, appendix, p. 7204.)
(The witness conferred with his coimsel.)
Mr. RoiTEMBERG. I presumc, sir, yon refer to page 5 of this document.
Mr. Arens. I refer to that page on which your name appears.
Mr. Ro'i'ENBEKG. This is a page which is headed by Dr. Rabe.
Mr, Aeens. Is that the one w^hich has Sol Rotenberg's name on it?
Mr. RoTENBERG. O. Johu Rogge and other names on it.
Mr. Arens. Is that the one which has Sol Rotenberg's name on it?
Mr. Rot]!:nberg. Yes ; that is page 5.
;Mr. Arens. Kindly answer tlie question, if you please, sir.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that this call to a Bill of Rights
conference would certainly seem to indicate that people were con-
cerned about the Bill of Rights, but I would decline on the basis of
the first amendment and the freedom of association and the fifth
amendment with respect to answering your question.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend that conference?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would answer the same answer for the same
reason.
Mr. Arens. At that particular conference there was an attack
against the Federal Bureau of Investigation ; was there not ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would decline to answer, sir, for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. At that conference there was also a resolution voted
down unanimously, which resolution would have restored civil lib-
erties for members of the Socialist Workers Party, the so-called
Trotskj'ite organization ; was there not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I could only give you the same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the conference?
iVIi\ Rotenberg. I w^ould give you the same answer for the same
reason, that the first amendment protects the freedom of association
and the fifth amendment protects the right of individuals to be free
in testimony from contributing to any possibility of a criminal
prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in December of 1951 in a conference
called in behalf of victims of Smith Act repression? Do you have
a recollection of such a conference held in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must decline to answer that question, sir, since
this question also deals with the right of association and also for the
fifth amendment with respect to the freedom to protect one's self
against the possibility of a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
on page 8 of the Communist Daily Worker of December 21, 1951,
entitled "Babtist [sic] Cleric Urges Prayer for Victims of the Smith
Act," with reference to a rally and a conference which was held in
Philadelpliia in December of 1951 in which a number of people partici-
pated, including one Sol Rotenberg, identified as executive director
of the Jewish People's Fraternal Order. Kindly look at that and
tell us whether or not you are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 158," see ap])ondix, p. 7381.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I believe this question, sir, also goes to the heart
'Of the matter with respect to freedom of association, and I will de-
6312 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
cline to answer the question on that ground and also on the ground
that a witness should not be compelled to give any testimony which
might lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Akens. Were you executive director of the Jewish People's Fra-
ternal Order in December of 1951 ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I will give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Herman Thomas ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I will give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Herman Thomas identified you under oath as a
person known by him to have been a member of the Communist con-
spiracy. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I think I am compelled, sir, to give you the same
answer for the same reasons.
The Chairman. You are not under any compulsion at all. You are
not compelled.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I feel, sir, that I am compelled to give that answer
because, sir
The Chairman. Do you give that answer ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I do ^ive that answer.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I am compelled to give tliat answer b}^ my own
conscience, as well as by my desire to see that the rights guaranteed
by the Constitution are not trampled upon by anybody.
(The witness conferred w^ith his counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Do vou honestlv fear that if vou told this committee
whether or not Herman Thomas was telling the truth when he took
an oath and told the committee that he knew you as a member of the
Communist conspiracy, you would be supplying information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reasons I have already indicated.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness to
answer Mr. Arens' question either yes or no.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Rotenberg. I have refused to answer this question, sir, because
of the first amendment, which guarantees the right of freedom of
association, and the fifth amendment, Avhich prevents the elicitation
of testimony
The Chairman. We are not talking about associations with any-
body. We are not talking about associations. We are talking about
the testimony that was adduced before this committee some time ago.
Mr. Levitan. Would you be good enough to continue with your
answer, Mr. Rotenberg ?
The Chairman. You go ahead and ask a question, Mr. Arens. He
has answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rotenberg, I lay before you now a photostatic-
copy of a document (a release dated Wednesday, December 14, 1949)^
which is a statement
COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6313
Mr. Levitan. Excuse me. One moment, please.
The Chairmax. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Of the Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the
Atlantic Pact, and in this particular document
Mr. Levitan, Mr. Rotenberg; did not answer tlie question.
Mr. Arens. In this particular document, we find the name of Roten-
berg, who signed a petition under the auspices of the Committee for
Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact. Kindly look at that docu-
ment, sir, and tell us whether or not that is your name.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 159a-d," see appendix, pp. 7382-
7385.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Eotenberg. First I want to make it very clear that in respect
to the previous question I did not complete my answer to it.
The Chairman. You refused to answer the question on the grounds
that the answer might incriminate you, because of the first amendment.
Mr. RoTENBERG. First and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. "VVliat more did you wish to add ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I was interrupted, sir. You had started to speak,
and I stopped and listened to what you were saying. I hadn't com-
pleted the answer. I wanted to say that the reason I had refused to
answer the question, after being directed to do so, was because, firstly,
the freedom of association was endangered, which is guaranteed in the
first amendment to the Constitution, and that the fifth amendment
guarantees protection to those who wish to prevent any testimony
being given by themselves which might possibly be used.
The Chairman. That is the answer you gave before. Proceed.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I just Wanted to be sure it was on the record.-
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell this committee whether or not you are the
Sol Rotenberg who signed this statement under the ouspices of the
Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact. I direct
vour attention to page 16 of this document in which appears "Sol
iRotenberg, executive director, Philadelphia council, Jewish Peoples
Fraternal Order." Kmdly look at that and tell this committee
wliether or not you are he.
Mr. Rotenberg. Sir, you mean this document which proposed
sending a statement to President Truman urging that agreement
whereby the atomic bomb should not be used as an instrument of
international warfare as the first step in the program of general
disarmament ?
Mr. Arens. Under the auspices of the Committee for Peaceful Al-
ternatives to the Atlantic Pact, yes, sir.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, there are a lot of names
Mr. Arens. Just please answer the question. Are you the Sol
Rotenberg who was alluded to in that document?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, that the first amendment, which
guarantees the freedom of association, and the fifth amendment, which
guarantees the privilege of not giving testimony which might lead
to a criminal prosecution, would induce me, sir, to refuse to answer the
question.
Mr. Arens. Now tell this committee, if you please, sir, what is, or
what was, the Philadelphia Council on Equal Job Opportunities. Do
Tou have a recollection of that organization ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
6314 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that this goes to the heart of the
question of freedom of association, and I would refuse to answer the
question on that ground and also on the ground of the fifth amendment.
Mt. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question, and I state for the
record at this time that there is no scintilla of evidence that this par-
ticular organization, the Philadelphia Council on Equal Job Oppor-
tunities, is, or has been, dominated or penetrated in any way by the
Communist conspiracy.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I would say, sir, that this c|uestion, like some of the
other questions, goes to the heart of the freedom of association, and I
would decline to answer this question on the ground of the first
amendment, which protects this right, as well as the fifth amendment,
which gives a witness the privilege of refusing to answer a question
which may lead in some way to a criminal prosecution.
The Chairman. Do you know Mrs. Jule T. Bouchard?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I dou't remember having heard that name before,
sir.
The Chairman. Her name appears as the person to contact with
respect to this Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic
Pact. You say you have never heard of her ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I dou't remember, sir, ever having heard that name.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever associate with the Philadelphia Council
on Equal Job Opportunities ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would have to give the same answer as before
with respect to that organization.
Mr. Arens. Do you know the Philadelphia Jewish Community
Relations Council ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I think, sir, this question continues to go to the
matter of freedom of association which is guaranteed and protected
under the first amendment and the fifth amendment, which guarantees
the right to refuse to answer a question which may lead to a criminal
prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever associate with the Philadelphia Jewish
Community Relations Council ?
Mr. Rotenberg. The same answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. And I say for the record, Mr. Chairman, we have no
scintilla of evidence that the Philadelphia Jewish Community Rela-
tions Council has been penetrated, or controlled in anyway, by the
Communist conspiracy. These questions were the background for
asking this next principal question.
In January of 1950, did you write a letter to the editor of the Jewish
Times, in which you attacked the Philadelphia Council on Equal Job
Opportunities and the Philadelphia Jewish Community Relations
Council?
Mr. LE^^TAN. Do you have that letter ?
Mr. Arens. I am addressing the question to the witness, Counsel.
Did you write such a letter ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6315
Mr. RoTENBEKG. I caniiot remember such a letter.
Mr. Arexs. All right, sir, I lay before you now a photostatic copy
of a document which is a reproduction from Jewish Life — April, 1950,
issue — in which their appears a letter (dated January 31, 1950) w^hich
had been addressed to Jewish Life, signed by Sol Rotenberg, in
■which these two organizations are attacked by yourself. Kindly
look at this document and tell this committee whether or not you sent
that letter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. IGOa, b," see appendix, pp. 738G,
7387.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I refusc to answer, sir, for the same reasons al-
ready given previously.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to a document which is a
photostatic reproduction of an article on page 4 of the Communist
Daily Worker of June 10, 1949, relating to a street demonstration in
support of the 12 Communist leaders then on trial in New York City.
According to this article, at this street demonstration one of the leaders
and participants w\as Sol Eotenberg, identified as executive secretary
of the Jewish People's Fraternal Order. Kindly look at that docu-
ment and tell us w^hether or not you are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 161," see appendix, p. 7388.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I would give you the same answer, sir, for the same
reason.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photograph taken in Philadel-
phia of a number of pickets attacking the Committee on Un-American
Activities, Un-Americans, Go Home. Don't Defile the Liberty Bell.
I should like to ask you to look at that photogi-aph and tell us if that
is your picture right there about the middle or to the right of the
photograph ; is that your photograph ?
f Document marked "Exhibit No. 162," see appendix, p. 7389.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ro'fenberg. I would say, sir, that I would refuse to answer that
question based on the right under the first amendment of freedom of
association and on the fifth amendment with respect to the possibility
of a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. You were picket line captain of that picket of this com-
mittee when it was holding sessions in Philadelphia in 1952 ; is that
not true?
Mr. Rotenberg. I would decline to answer that question, sir, for the
same reason.
The Chairman. I want to see what is so funny about that photo-
graph.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now still another photograph and ask
you if that is a true and correct photograph of yourself directing the
operations of the picket line in Philadelphia.
(Document marked "P^xhibit No. 163," see appendix, p. 7390.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.
Mr. Rotenberg. I will decline to answer that question, sir, for the
reasons alreadj^ given. I feel that these questions lead directly to the
freedom of association and the attempt, sir, to evolve some scheme or
method which might lead to some criminal prosecution.
6316 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you still another photograph which
shows you in the midst of the pickets, a little bit different pose.
Kindl}' identify that photograph for the committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 164," see appendix, p. 7391.)
Mr. EoTENBERG. I would say, sir, I would give you the same answer
for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another photograph taken in the
hearing room in Philadelphia during the hearings of this committee
and I ask you kindly to identify that photograph of yourself and to
tell this committee wnth whom you are conversing.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 165,'' see appendix, p. 7392.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. EoTENBERG. I will say, sir, this goes again to the heart of the
question of the freedom of association, and I would exercise my priv-
ilege under the first and the fifth amendments in refusing to answer
the question.
Mr. Arens. In February of 1953, did you set up a conference in
Philadelphia for the purpose of creating sentiment for the repeal of
the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, first of all that — you say February
1953?
Mr. Arens. February 1953 ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rotenberg. I would say, sir, that I am flatly opposed to the
Walter-McCarran law, as should be obvious to the chairman and to
the membei's of this committee, and have always been opposed to the
Walter-McCarran law for the type of law it is and the damage which
it does to American rights and for the hardships which it brings to
many innocent people.
The Chairman. What damage does it do to innocent people ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Well, sir, I have read of many cases of people who
have been adversely affected by the operation of the Walter-McCar-
ran law with respect to their abilities to get and hold jobs, with respect
to unlawful deportation orders being obtained against them, with
respect to their being arrested and molested on the basis of the Walter-
McCarran law by agents of the Immigration Service and other de-
j)artments of the Government, which certainly does not flow from
the protection of individual rights as guaranteed in our Constitution.
The Chairman. Just name me one individual who has been unjustly
prosecuted under the Walter-McCarran Act. They can be deported.
^Vliat you are saying is that you are opposed to the deportation of
Communists. Isn't that what you are saying ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. What was your question, sir ?
The Chairman. Aren't you paying any attention ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I was waiting, sir, for you to finish.
Th.e Chairman. I am asking you to name one single case where an
innocent person has been prosecuted unjustly, as you put it.
Mr. Rotenberg. Well, sir, there is such a case w^hich I would like to
call to your attention.
The Chairman. Give it to us.
Mr. Rotenberg. Since it was a case which took place in Philadel-
phia this past year.
The Chairman. First, what is the name?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 63 IT
Mr. RoTENBERG. The name of the woman was Stella Petrosky.
The Chairman. How do you spell that name?
Mr. RoTENBERG. P-e-t-r-o-s-k-j.^
Mr. ScHERER. Was she a Communist?
Mr. RoTENBERG. She was the mother of 8 children and 19 grand-
children, all citizens here. She was arrested on deportation charges,
had a hearing, was ordered deported, The hearing was upheld by
the Board of Immigration Appeals. One of our Federal judges in
Philadelphia, Judge Van Dusen, after hearing arguments on this
particular case, handed down his ruling just a few short weeks ago,
sir, that the deportation order was unlawful. Those are his words.
And the action of the deportation hearing officer, as well as the action
of the Board of Immigration Appeals in refusing to overturn the de-
portation order, were "unlawful."
The Chairman. That is right. Now let me show you where you
are wrong. Under the law, they have the administrative procedure
that 3'^ou have talked about, and failing in that, they have the writ
of habeas corpus and appeal to the circuit court of appeals and appeal
to the Supreme Court of the United States. So actually this woman
was not deported because of the provisions of the very law that you
are now criticizing-
Mr. Arens. In view of your interest in the McCarran-Walter Act
and the position which you have announced on the act, please tell
this committee whether or not you set up a conference in Philadelphia
in February 1953 for the purpose of engendering sentiment for the
repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I think, sir, the right of freedom of association,
the right to petition the government to make changes in laws, is guar-
anteed by our Constitution, and I decline to answer that question,
and also invoke the protection of the first and fifth amendments with
respect to my answer.
The Chairman. In view of the fact that it is entirely within the
Constitution to organize a group to protest to the Congress, to peti-
tion the Congress, to quote the Constitution, what criminal action do
you feel could be instituted against you for acting within your con-
stitutional rights ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer, sir, for the same reasons
previously given.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, at this point I should like to cause to be
inserted in this record a letter Avhicli I have received from the resident
manager of the Hotel Sylvania, Fred Leliman, dated November 6,
1956, the body of which reads as follows :
Relative to your letter requesting identity of organization who rented our
ballroom for conference on February 8, 1953, we are pleased to advice (sic)
that it was booked by: Mr. Sol Rotenberg, Jewish People's Fraternal Order,
Room 803, Bankers Security Building, Juniper and Walnut Streets, Philadel-
phia 7, Pa.
Signed by the manager of the hotel.
Mr. Rotenberg, at that particular conference in February of 1953
were certain resolutions passed ?
Mr. Rotenberg- I must decline to answer, sir, because I believe
that you are intruding on tlie freedom of association, and I would
also invoke the protection of the fifth amendment with respect to
^ Correct spelling of this name is Petrofsky.
6318 CORIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
the elicitation of any testimony which might lead possibly to a
criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention now to a document which is
titled "Proposed Program of Action, Conference to Repeal Walter-
McCarran Immigration Law — Sunday February 8, 1953," in which
the conferees are urged to take various types of action, inclndiiifr
the organization of delegations to visit Congressmen to obtain com-
mitments from them to support the conference resolutions; also to
obtain signatures on petitions ; to get thousands of post cards sent to
Congressmen ; to organize delegations to go to Washington : to develop
neighborhood campaigns; to set up various types of meetings. I lay
that document before you now and ask you if that is a true and correct
representation of the proceedings of the conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 166," see appendix, p. 7393.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I See that this program of action makes reference
to a repeal bill introduced by Congressman William A. Barrett, of
Philadelphia, H.R. 220.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Just tell us whether or not that is a true and
correct representation of the proceedings which took place at this
conference set up by yourself.
Mr. Rotenberg. I must decline to answer the question, sir, on the
basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Now, who is Harry Levitan ?
Mr. Levitan. I am Harry Levitan.
Mr. Arens. I am asking the witness.
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. RoTENBERG. Harry Levitan is my attorney, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you set up a testimonial affair in honor of Attorney
Harry Levitan in October 1955 at the Broadwood Hotel ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I must respectfully decline, sir, to answer that
question on the grounds of the right of freed,om of association
Mr. ScHERER. It might incriminate you ?
Mr. Rotenberg. And, secondly, sir, because someone might try to
elicit testimony or use such testimony in some criminal prosecution.
The Chairman. Just a moment. What crime do you think you
might be charged with for setting up a testimonial dinner for your
lawyer or anyone else ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I am not a legal student, sir. I must give you
the same answer for the same reason.
The Chairman. In other words, you decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Yes; I do.
The Chairman. All right. Who is Dwight F. Purman?
Mr. Rotenberg. Who?
The Chairman. Dwight F. Purman.
Mr. Rotenberg. How do you spell that last name?
The Chairman. P-u-r-m-a-n.
Mr, Rotenberg. I never heard the name, sir.
The Chairman. He is the president of the central Pennsylvania
Synod of the LTnited Lutheran Church. Do you know him?
Mr. Rotenberg. I never heard of him, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Dr. Stanley R. Parnall, of the
Germantown Friends School ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6319
Mr. RoTENBERG. I may have heard of the name, sir, but I must
decline to answer questions with respect to names of people, because
I believe that they are in infringement on the ri^ht of association.
The Chairihan. You think you might be subjected to a criminal
prosecution if you admit you know the principal of the Quaker School
m Philadelphia?
Mr. RoTENBERG. In the context of this hearing, sir ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Henry Scattergood, of Villanova?
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't remember, sir, whether I know him or not.
The Chairivian. Do you know Mitchell Schaffer ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. The name is not familiar to me.
The Chairman. Do you know Rev. B. L. Scott, of the Lower Merlon
Baptist Church, at Bryn Mawr ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I may have read the name in some newspaper. The
name is not too familiar to me, sir.
The Chairman. Referring ba^k to this petition you signed under
the auspices of the Committee for Peaceful Alternatives to the At-
lantic Pact, I am just picking out other people from Pennsylvania
who also signed this petition. I thought perhaps you would know
some of the other signers.
Mr. RoTENBERG. lu a lifetime one meets a lot of people, sir.
The Chairman. Yes, that is true — of all sorts.
Mr. RoTENBERG. That is true, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Dr. Thomas Woody, of the University
of Pennsylvania.
Mr. RoTENBERG. It is just a name, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Mrs. Anna Yarnall ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Just a name ; a Philadelphia citizen.
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. In this conference which you set up for your attorney,
did you procure the room or the reservation at the Broadwood Hotel
on behalf of the Philadelphia Life Insurance Co.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Le\t:tan. Wliich affair was that, sir ?
Mr. Arens. The affair that he set up for you, the testimonal affair
on October of 1955 at the Broadwood Hotel.
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer the question, sir, for the
same reason as already given.
Mr. Arens. You did make arrangements at the hotel for this testi-
monial to Mr. Levitan, but you made them in the name of the Phila-
delphia Life Insurance Co., did you not?
Mr. Levitan. Philadelphia Life Insurance had nothing to do with
it.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer your question, sir, for the
same reasons.
The Chairman. Have you ever been employed by the Philadelphia
Life Insurance Co. ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I am an agent, sir, of many companies, and that is
one of the companies.
Mr. Arens. Did your company, the Philadelphia Life Insurance
Co., know that you made a reservation for this meeting at the hotel
using the name of the Philadelphia Life Insurance Co. so you could
get the hotel reservations ?
6320 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. For a Communist meeting.
Mr. Levitan. That was not a Communist meeting, sir.
The Chairman. You will have an opportunity to testify yourself.
Mr. Levitan. Yes, I hope so.
Mr. Scherer. How many Communists attended that meeting?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must refuse, sir, to answer your question for the
same reason.
The Chairman. How many non-Communists ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must refuse for the same reason, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Witness, I read you, the first paragraph of
a letter which I received, dated November 8, 1956, from William Ad-
ler, of the Broadwood Hotel in Philadelphia addressed to myself.
On October 28, 1955. a testimonial affair in honor of Attorney A. Harry Levi-
tan was held at the Broadwood Hotel. The affair was contracted by Mr. Sol
Rotenberg representing the Philadelphia Life Insurance Co. at 115 North Broad
Street, Philadelphia.
Is that a true recitation of the facts ?
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 167a, b," see appendix, pp. 7394,
7395.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. The Philadelphia Life Insurance Co., sir, had
nothing whatever to do with the Broadwood Hotel so far as I know.
Mr. Arens. Then why did you use the name of the Philadelphia
Life Insurance Co. in making the reservations for this affair?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. I must decline to answer your question, sir, for
the reasons previously given.
Mr. Arens. Was it because you didn't want the Philadelphia Life
Insurance Co. to know that you, a Communist, were setting up a
testimonial dinner for somebody?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rotenberg. You are assuming, sir, from your question that I
am a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must, sir, remind you that the right of associa-
tion is protected by the first amendment to the Constitution and that
the fifth amendment also prevents the elicitation of testimony which
might possibly lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. In December of 1955, last year, just a little bit before
Christmas, about a year ago, there was a national conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom held in
Detroit, Michigan. Did you attend this conference?
Mr. Rotenberg. I guess it isn't safe for anyone to be against the
Walter-McCarran law these days. I must decline, sir, to answer these
quastions which have to do with the association which is guaranteed
in the first amendment and on the grounds of the fifth amendment
that these questions may lend to some testimony which could be a link
in some criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. You were chairman of the nominating committee up
there in Detroit last year of this conference called for the purpose of
creating sentiment to destroy the immigration laws ; isn't that correx^t ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Well, I think any conference that was called to
make some changes in immigration laws would be a worthwhile thing,
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6321
sir, but I must decline to answer your question with respect to my par-
ticipation in any such conference for the reasons already given.
Mr. Abens. Now I lay before you, if you please, sir, a document
which indicates the nature of the conference, the 2od Amiual Con-
ference of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
held in Detroit, Mich., which sets forth the purpose of the conference,
and we have an investigator's report on the meeting indicating that
3'ou were chairman of the nominating committee for the officers of the
conference. Will you tell this committee whether or not you were
in attendance at the conference in Detroit and whether or not you
were chairman of the nominating committee ?
(See exhibit VII, appendix, pp. 8406-8489.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. That was the committee to nominate the officers of the
American Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. Is that what it says in the investigator's report,
sir?
Mr. Arens. Would you deny while you are mider oath that you
were in attendance at that conference in Detroit and that you were
chairman of the nominating committee ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Would you care to show me the investigator's
report?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not
he was chairman of the nominating committee of the Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, held in December last year.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. RoTENBERG. Mr. Walter, I must respectfully decline to answer
that question because it goes to the heart of the question of freedom
of association and I would invoke the privilege of the fifth amend-
ment as well as the first, because of the possibility that my answers
might be used in some way and might result in a criminal prosecution.
This, sir, does not mean that I am in favor of the Walter-McCarran
law.
The Chairman. Just a minute. In that connection, you came to my
office one time
Mr. RoTENBERG. Ycs, I did, sir.
The Chairman. And I asked you to write me a letter in which you
would state specific points that were wrong with the law. I have
been waiting for 2 years to get the letter. Is it because you can't
tell what is wrong with it without admitting that the only thing you
are opposed to is the section that makes it easier to deport Com-
munists and more difficult for Communists to come into the United
States? That is your opposition to the law, isn't it?
Mr. RoTENBERG. No, it isn't, sir. I would be happy to go into
great detail with you with respect to the law.
The Chairman. No, I asked you a long while ago to write me a
letter, and you never have written the letter.
Mr. RoTENBERG. There have been hundreds of documents written
The Chairman. No, no.
Mr. RoTENBERG. With respect
The Chairman. No. At this conference in my office you brought
some well-meaning people who, I am sure, didn't know anything about
6322 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
you or your background or what you were or are. You brought these
people to my office. I told you to sit down and write me a letter
telling me what was wrong and I would submit it to the committee
whicli unanimously reported this bill. I haven't gotten this bill of
complaint as yet.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Now, your interest in legislation goes far beyond the
Walter- McCanan Act, does it not, Mr. Rotenberg ?
Mr. RoTENBEitG. Just a moment.
The Chairman. This is a question, and go ahead.
Mr. Levitan. Your question or Mr. Arens' question ?
♦Mr. Arens. Your interest in legislation is in regard to legislation
in addition to the Walter-McCarran Act, is it not?
Mr. Rotenberg. I am not sure as to what you mean, sir. I am inter-
ested in all kinds of legislation that is pending or is passed before our
Houses of Congress.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered under the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I have a citizen's interest in legislation, sir.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question, please ; are you registered under
the Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Rotenberg. No.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the organization of a conference
at the Adelphia Hotel in 1954, a Peoples Conference Against Mc-
Carthyite Legislation, and for Civil Rights?
Mr. Rotenberg. I think, sir, tliis goes again to the question of f lee-
dom association, and I must decline to answer this question on the
basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. When you visited the distinguished chairman of this
committee, in his office, did you make known to him whether or not
you were a member of tlie Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Rotenberg. Mr. Walter did not ask me anything at all about my
politics, sir.
The Chairman. I knew all about it before you came, of course.
Mr. Rotenberg. I also was familiar, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I have one question, at this point. Did you make
known to the people whom you brought to Congressman Walter's office,
the fact that you were a Communist and engaged in Communist Party
work?
Mr. Rotenberg. I, sir, have not told you whether I am a Communist
or I am not a Communist, and I engaged in the visit to Mr. Walter's
office with people for the specific purpose of discussing with Mr. Walter
some of the provisions of the Walter-McCarran law.
Mr. Scherer. You haven't answered my question. Did you or did
you not disclose to the people whom you brought to Congressman
Walter's office whether or not you were a Communist ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I must, sir, use the privilege of the first amendment
which guarantees the freedom of association, and the fifth amendment
with respect to freedom from criminal prosecution in declining to
answer your question.
Mr. Scherer. Of course you didn't because I suppose 90 percent of
them wouldn't have come if they had known that you were a member
of the Communist Party and engaged in Communist Party work when
you brought them to Congressman Walter's office.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6323
Mr. RoTENBERG. That is your opinion, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Is my opinion wrong ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Your opinion, sir, is merely your opinion.
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking you
Mr. RoTENBERG. I have my own opinions with regard to the Walter-
McCarran Law, and I have so stated in my conference with Mr. Walter.
Mr. SciiERER. Now you answ^er my question. What I said just then,
is that wrong ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. That is merely your opinion, sir,
Mr. SciiERER. Is my opinion wrong ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Every man is entitled to his own opinion.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Was Alex Wright in attendance with you in that delega-
tion that came to see Mr. Walter in his office ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the
basis of the first amendment, which guarantees the freedom of asso-
ciation, and the fifth amendment, which protects a witness from giv-
ing any testimony which may lead to a criminal prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Alex Wright was with you, and I put it to you as a fact
that he was, and he is and has been, a member of the Communist Party .„
If that is not true, you deny it while you are under oath.
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTENBERG. I regretfully must decline to answer your question,
sir, because it deals with this freedom of association which I think the
committee has no right to dig into. I use the fifth amendment, also,,
sir.
Mr. Arens. I think the record sliould be clear that Mr. Alex Wright,
although he was in attendance as a Communist in the session of this
legislative delegation, was an midercover agent for the Federal Bureau
of Investigation and has since been revealed as an undercover agent.
He was posing as a conspirator in the delegation that he attended
with you.
The Chairman. You did not know who came to call on me, did you ?
Mr. RoTENBERG. Mr. Walter, I came to call on you to discuss the
Walter-lSIcCarran law\
The Chairman. You did not know that with this group was an agent
of the FBI?
Mr. RoTENBFXtG. Auyouc who is opposed to the Walter-McCarran
law, sir, has tlie privilege, the same as any other citizen, to come to
your office to discuss the matter.
The Chairman. If I see fit to see them, of course, but what I am
saying to you is that you did not know that in this delegation there was
a man w^ho was a member of the FBI.
Mr. Arens. How many Congressmen did you call on in the course
of this visitation to Washington ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I called on all of the Philadelphia Congressmen,
and the Senators from the State of Pennsylvania, sir.
Mr. Arens. How many people were in the delegation t
Mr. Rotenberg- I don't recall the exact number.
6324 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. What is your best estimate as to the number of people?
Were there as many as six ?
(Witness conferred witli his counsel. )
Mr. KoTENBERG. I believe, I am not sure of the number, I believe it
was 8 or 10, and I know that we all left our names with Mr. Walter's
secretary so I am sure that he has a list of the people who were there.
Mr. Arens. And you called on about half a dozen Congressmen ; is
that correct ?
Mr. KoTENBERG. I Said I did, sir. It was the six from Philadelphia
and Mr. Walter and the Pennsylvania Senators. I might say, sir, that
I found that many of the Congressmen I called upon were also opposed
to many features of the Walter-McCarran law.
The Chairman. \Vhat did any of them ever do about it ?
Mr. KoTENBERG. Well, Congressman Barrett introduced a bill for
repeal, and Congressman Hugh Scott, who is my Congressman, told
me that he had been trying to get some discussion in the Subcommittee
on Immigration of the House Judiciary Committee of which you are
the chairman, sir, and he said he had been unsuccessful in getting any
bills for repeal or revision out of your subcommittee.
Mr. Arens. Who paid the expenses of the delegation who came to
Washington ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I paid my own expenses, sir.
Mr. Arens. "Who designated you as spokesman for the group ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't recall anyone designating me as spokesman,
sir. I took the privilege upon myself to speak to tlie Congressman
because these things were on my mind.
Mr. Arens. Of the delegation, how many people in the delegation
were not members of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I have no information, sir, which could lead me
in any direction to give you an answer. I just don't know anytliing
about their politics, their associations, or their beliefs, and I believe
this t^'pe of questioning, sir, which is directed by the committee here,
would perhaps have a more beneficial effect if hearings were held in
the Judiciary Committee on the Walter-McCarran law itself.
Mr. Arens. Did you make representation to any of the Congress-
men whom you visited respecting the organization that you repre-
sented ?
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't recall, sir, but I would say this goes to the
freedom of association and I would decline to answer that question
on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you an original document with ref-
erence to a Peoples Conference against McCarthyite legislation and
for civil rights, in which a number of pieces of legislation are at-
tacked— the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, and the Immigra-
tion and Nationality Act. It is a conference set up for Saturday,
June 19, 1954, and I ask you whether or not you were one of the spon-
sors and arrangers for that conference ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 168 a-d," see appendix, pp. 7396-
7399.)
Mr. Rotenberg. There was a lot of confusion.
Mr. Arens. There was no confusion in the mind of Mr. Thomas
when he identified you as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Rotenberg. I don't know what was in his mind.
Mr. Arens. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6325
Mr. RoTEXBERG. I must exercise the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments since I believe your question
The Chairmax. Do you know Mr. Thomas ?
Mr. EoTEXiiERG. I would love to answer your question, but I must
give you the same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
^Ir. Arexs. Now, just tell us whether or not you are one of the
organizers of this conference against the Internal Security Act, the
Smith Act, and the Walter-McCarran Act, and other anti-Communist
legislation on the books ^
Mr. RoTEXBERO. Well, this all says repeal of the McCarran-Walter
Immigration Act, and I am certainly in agreement with that.
I\Ir. Arexs. Tell us whether or not you organized that? We under-
stand you are in agreement on that.
]\Ir. RoTExiiERG. I must decline to answer your question, sir, because
it goes to the heart of the question of freedom of association which I
think is beyond the purview of your committee, and I would also
invoke the fifth amendment since such questions may lead in some way
to a criminal prosecution.
The Chairmax. What was that question? -Read the question back.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
The Chairmax. Now, there is no prohibition against citizens or-
ganizing in order to take action against legislation. What criminal
prosecution do you think could be instituted against you for organizing
a group whose purpose it was to endeavor to prevail upon the Con-
gress to alter, amend, or repeal certain legislation ?
Mr. RoTEX'BERG. Well, sir, I am not sure what criminal possibilities
might flow from this, and I would certainly hope to hold myself free
to come talk to you again about the Walter-McCarran law, should the
opportunity avail itself, and preferably at some committee hearing
which would be set u]) to hear testimony on bills to repeal and revise
the Walter-McCarran law.
The Chairmax. We are talking about this meeting that you organ-
ized in Detroit.
Mr. RoTEXBERG. I iiiust clecliue, sir, to answer your question because
it goes to the heart of the question of freedom of association, and I
must invoke the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairmax. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. RoTEXBERG. I liave already answered, sir, that on the basis of
the first and fifth amendments I cannot answer your question.
The Chairmax. Will you proceed ?
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the statf
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. SciiERER. Are you related to Don Rothenberg, of Cleveland ?
Mr. RoTEXBERG. Not to my knowledge, sir.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairmax. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Hugo Gellert, will you pknise come forwartl ^
The Chairmax. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so lielp
you God ?
Mr. Gellert. I do.
85333— 57— pt. 1 13
0326 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF HUGO GEILERT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arexs. Please identify youi-self, sir, by name, residence and
occupation.
Mr. Gellert. Hu^o Gellert, 223 23d Street, New York City.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly keep your voice up, Mr. Gellert, so
the committee can hear you clearly ?
i\Ir. Geu-iErt. I am an artist. I am sorry my throat isn't in such
good condition.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing; in response to a subpena served
upon 3'ou by the House Committee on Un-American Activities 'I
Mr. Gellert. Yes, sir.
Mv. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Gellert. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself '(
Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York
6, N. Y.
Mr. Arens. Have j'ou alwavs been known b}- the name of Hugo
Gellert?
Mr. Gellert. I was born under a diflPerent name.
Mr. Arens. Under what name were you born ?
Mr. Gellert. Hugo Greenbaum.
Mr. Arens. And where were you born ?
Mr. Gellert. Hungary.
Mr. Arens. In what city in Hungary ?
Mr. Gellert. Budapest.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Gellert, in 1927 did you take a trip abroad?
Mr. Gellebt. I did.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go ?
Mr. Gellert. I went to France and I went to Germany and I went to
the Soviet Union.
Mr. Arens. What Avas your purpose in going to the Soviet Union
in 1927?
Mr. Gellert. My purpose was to see what it was like.
Mr. Arens. Who paid your expenses ?
Mr. "Gellert. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. How much time did you spend in the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Gellert. I am not certain of time. It might have been a couple
of months, or maybe 6 weeks, I am not certain, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did vou attend any classes while you were in the Soviet
Union in 1927?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you do any studying there ?
Mr. Gellert. I did not study.
Mr. Arens. Then, did you take another trip in 1932 ?
INIr. Gellert. I beg your pardon, may I tell you what I did do while
I was there ?
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mr. Gellert. They were getting out a series of books on Theodore
Di-eiser and I made the jackets for them.
Mr. Arens. You were an artist at that time, as you are now?
Mr. Gellert. I have been so all of my life.
Mr. Arens. Did you make another trip in 1932 ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6327
INIr. Gellert. Yes, I made another trip in 1932.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go in 1932 ?
Mr. Gellert. In 1932 1 firet went to I^ningi'ad and then I went to
Moscow.
Mr. Arens. ^V\.\i\t was your purpose in 1932 in going to Leningrad
and to Moscow ?
Mr. Gellert. The same tiling, to see what it is like, and tx) see what
they were doing in the Soviet Union.
Mr. Arens. Were you the guest of any group or organization in
Moscow ?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Or in Leningrad ?
Mr. Gellert. I was not the guest of any group. I paid my way.
Mr. Arens. And did you attend any schools or classes there?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir; I only stayed for a very short time.
Mr. Arens. Did you make still another trip in 1946 ?
Mr. Gellert. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. Arens. Did you make an application for a passport in 1946?
Mr. Gellert. Yes, I did, but not to the Soviet Union.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go in 1946, pursuant to the passport?
Mr. Gellert. I went to Australia.
Mr. Arens. And what was your -purpose in going to Australia ?
Mr. Gellert. I went to my wife's folks; my wife was born there,
and we visited her folks whom she hadn't seen for a good many years.
Mr. Arens. Did you do any studying there ?
Mr. Gfjllert. I did some work there.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Gellert, have you ever been identified witli,
or been a member or an official of, the New York Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Gellert. I respectfully invoke the protection of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. You were at one time cochairman of the New York
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, were you not?
Mr. Gellert. I still invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Did you say cochairman ? "WHio was the chairman ?
Mr. Arens. Thei-e was a chairman whose name was Alex Wright.
Now, I lay before you, Mr. Gellert. a photostatic copy of a letter
of the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born — !May
19, 1955 — which sets forth the officers of the New York Committee
for Protection of P^oreign Born, and j'our name is listed as cochair-
man. Please look at that and tell us whether that is an accurate and
correct description of your status with that organization.
(See exhibit 128a, b, appendix, pp. 7320, 7321.)
Mr. Gellert. The answer is the same as I have just given.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Gellert, I lay before you an open letter to
the Judiciary Committee of the Uniled States Senate and tlie House
of Representatives signed by a mimber of people all asking for an
end to the Walter-McCai-ren Immigration and Nationality Act, signed
by a number of people including Dr. Hugo Gellert, New York, N. Y.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 169a, b," see appendix, pp. 7400,
7401.)
Mr. Gellert. Is it Doctor ?
6328 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. No ; it is Mister. Would you kindly look at that docu-
ment and tell us whether or not you signed that petition or that open
letter i
Mr. Gellert. The answer is: I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who solicited your signature to this document?
]\Ir. Gellert. The answer is the same, sir.
;Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the editorial board of
the publication, the New Pioneer ?
( Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And how long were you on the editorial board of the
New Pioneer?
Mr. Gellert. That I cannot remember, sir.
Mr. Arens. Was it a matter of a few months or a matter of a few
3^ears ?
Mr. Gellert. That I do not know, my memory is not very clear
on that. It might have been a couple of years.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Y. J. Jerome, who was on the editorial
board of the Pioneer with you ?
(Witness consulted his counsel. )
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Y. J. Jerome was a Communist agent, was he not ?
Mr. Geixert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
^Ir. Arens. Were you the staff artist of the Communist Daily
Worker ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I contributed, sir, but I have never been a staff
artist.
Mr. Arens. When did vou contribute to the Communist Daily
Worker?
Mr. Gellert. During the war.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you now a pliotostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of December 21, 1935, (page 3) in which ap-
l)ears, "Introducing the Staff" of the Communist Daily Worker, and
among the artists who are introduced by this publication is Hugo
Gellert. Kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not
vou were one of the artists at that time for the Communist Daily
^Vorker?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 170a, b," see appendix, pp. 7J:02,
7403.)
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I am sorry, sir, there seems to be about 20 or 27 very
well known artists listed and my name was among them. I am sorry
that I hadn't remembered it but now I am reminded that I gave
consent to it.
Mr. Arens. Now, did you join in a statement with others who sup-
ported the Soviet trial verdict during the course of the famous
Moscow trial of the Trotsky ites?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I am sorry, but I submit the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a })hotostatic copy of an article
appearing in the Communist Daily Worker (of xVpril 28, 1938,.
p. 4). in which a number of persons are listed as signatories to a
st^itement commending the Moscow trials of the Trotskyites. In
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6329
this list appears the name of Hugo Gellert. Please look at this and tell
us whether or not you joined in this statement ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 171," see appendix, pp. 7404, 7405.)
Mr. Gellert. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Have you changed your mind with reference to the
MoscoAv trials of the Trotskyites since the desanctification of Stalin
who perpetrated the trials?
Mr. GELL7':Rr. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of tlie Com-
munist Daily Worker of November 2, 1951 (p. 8), in wliicli appears
a paid advertisement, in celebration of the Hungarian Daily Journal,
listing as master of ceremonies of the celebration, Mr. Hugo Gellert.
Were you the master of ceremonies on tliat occasion?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 172," see appendix, p. 740G.)
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of John Lautner ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment,
Mr. Arens. ]Mr. Lautner, would you please stand? Mr. Gellert,
look over your left shoulder if you please, sir. Yesterday Mr.
Lautner took an oath before this committee and stated while he was
under oath that he knew you as a member of the Communist Party
while he, Mr. Lautner, was in the Communist Party. Was Mr.
Lautner lying or was he telling the truth ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel,)
Mr, Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, have you ever been a sponsor of a National Com-
mittee to Win Amnesty 'for Smith Act Victims?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Carl Marzani ?
Mr, Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr, Arens. He was treasurer of that organization, was he not?
Mr. Gellert, The answer is the same, sir.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, please, sir, a photostatic copy of
a document (p. 3 of the May 16, 1952, Daily Worker), in which you
are listed as one of 49 notables who have sponsored and formed a com-
mittee, a National Committee to Win Amnesty for Smitli Act Vic-
tims. Please look at that and tell us whether or not you are accurately
identified in that article?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 173," see appendix, p. 7407.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of an article
appearing in the Daily People's World, a west coast Communist
paper, of July 21, 1952, which is headed, "Notables protest Mrs. Yates
jailing," under the provisions of the Smith Act. Included in the
delegation was one Hugo Gellert identified as a noted New York
artist. Kindly tell this committee whetlier or not you are accurately
identified in that article?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 174," see appendix, p. 7407.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily People's World (p. 7 of the April 29, 1953 issue) . The
article to which I invite your attention is entitled, "U. S. cultural
6330 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
leaders greet Chile conference,'' in which a number of people, including
one Hugo Gellert, joined in sending greetings to the Communist
leaders of a conference held in Chile. Kindly look at that article and
tell us Avliether or not you are accurately identified in that article?
( Document marked '^Exhibit No. 175,'' see appendix, pp. 7407, 7408.)
Mr. Gellert. The answer is the same, please. I invoke the fiftTi
amendment.
Mr. .Vkexs. Do you know Michael Gold?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arexs.'Now, the Masses and Mainstream, just last year, de-
voted a feature article to saluting you as one of the outstanding in-
dividuals of this Nation. Isn't that correct? Do you have a recol-
lection of that?
]Mr. Geelert. I guess so.
Mr. Arens. ^Yho wrote the article, do you recall?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. ]May I see that ?
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, sir, a document which is a salute
to Hugo Gellert, appearing in the Communist publication, Masses and
Mainstream (January 1055 issue, pp. 27-31), and the article is written
b}'' Michael Gold. Is that the article to which you were alluding a
moment ago when you said you were aware that Masses and Main-
stream had this feature article about you?
(Document mtirked "Exhibit No. i76a~e," see appendix, pp. 7409-
7413.)
( Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellei;-]-. Yes ; this is the article.
Mr. Arens. Did Michael Gold interview you in preparation of this
article ?
Mr. Gellert. I use the fifth amendment, please.
Mr. Arens. Now, I want to invite your attention to an article on
page 3 of the Communist Daily Worker of March 13, 1953. I would
like to read it to you :
Stalin Lives in the Hearts of All Men of Good Will
Hugo Gellert, widely known artist, yesterday paid tribute to Stalin in these
words : "Stalin, teacher and leader of his people, the laboring: masses * * *.
"In the land of the workers, where no man may exploit his fellow men, the
unfettered creative energies of the people, their colossal achievements for which
there is no precedent in history, made hira the greatest among the great of our
time.
"His name is a legend. Stalin lives in the hearts of all men of good will."
Look at that article now and tell us whetlier or not that accurately
quotes you in your sentiments respecting Mr. Stalin?
Mr. Gellert. I respectfully invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you ii^ 1953 maintain the position that Stalin was
such a blessing to all mankind and he lives in the hearts of all men?
Mr. Geli-ert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you, by the way, changed your opinion of Stalin
or your position with reference to the magnitude of his greatness in
the last several months ?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fiftli amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a cover drawing repro-
duced in the Worker of A])ril 12, 1953 (p. 3). According to the
Worker you are the author of this drawing. And I wish to invite your
COMJVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6331
attention to the caption, "Bring onr boys home from Korea." Did you
author that cartoon or that drawing?
(Document marked "PLxhibit No. 177," see appendix, p. 7414.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the hf th amendment, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been preparing any drawings recently or any
placards addressed to the Soviet Union asking them to bring their boys
home from Hungary ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gelkert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, tell us about your teaching career, Mr. Gellert.
Have you been an instructor in the Jefferson School of Social Science?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of an article
appearing on page 7 of the Daily Worker of September 29, 1953,
entitled ''Gellert Teaches Political Cartooning," in which the body
of the article states that you have been teaching political cartooning
in the Jefferson School of Social Science in New York. Please look
at that article and tell us whether or not it is a true and accurate repre-
sentation of your activities in the Jefferson School of Social Science?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 178," see appendix^ p. 7415.)
Mr. Geli^rt. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. What have you done with reference to clemency for the
Rosenbergs in the last year or two ?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a document (a photostatic copy
of p. 6 of the Worker, Sunday, June 14, 1953) showing a drawing of
the Rosenbergs in jail, entitled "A New Drawing by Hugo Gellert."
Please look at that and tell us wliether or not you authored or drew
that sketch of the Rosenbergs in jail ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 179," see appendix, p. 7416.)
Mr. Gellert. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever done any murals, any drawings, under
contract w4th the United States Government?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever received any compensation from any
Government agency, State, Federal, or otherwise ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. If you permit me, sir, during the existence of the
WPA, I was to get a commission from a very important corporation
in America to paint the mui-al for $5,000 and the WPA requested that
I let them have it and I did so, in order to raise the prestige of their
projects. I was employed, I believe for 3 months, at the rate of $22
to teach young men and women at tlie Roosevelt High School, as a
compensation for it.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before yon a photostatic copy of an article
from the Communist Daily Worker (p. 11, tlie Worker, April 26, 1953)
to the elFect that j^ou worked with Robert Minor when he was editor
of the Liberator, a publication known as the Liberator, and you were
one of his collaborators. Kindly look at that article and tell us
of a publication known as tlie Liberator, and you were one of his
collaborators. Kindly look at that article and tell us whether or not
you and Robert Minor were collaborators in this enterprise?
6332 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 180," see appendix, p. 7-ilT.)
Mr. Gellert. I respectfully invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. No^^', you have been active in undertaking to end anti-
Communist legislation and what you have termed — you and your asso-
ciates term — ^^'sedition laws and inhuman legislation"; isn't that
correct ?
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. xVrexs. I invite your attention now to a photostatic copy of an
article in the Communist Daily People's World (p. 7, December 5, 1055,
issue) with reference to a fund-raising project by the Committee To
End Sedition Laws, which mentions a Hugo Gellert. Please look at
that article and tell us while you are under oath whether or not you
are he ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 181," see appendix, p. 7418.)
Mr. Gellert. The fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gellert. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, we have no further questions of this
witness.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Constantme Ossip, please.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Ossip. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CONSTANTINE OSSIP, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Ossip. Constantine Ossip, 81 Orchard Street, New York City.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena served
upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Mr. Ossip. I cannot understand.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena served
upon you ?
Mr. Ossip. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Needleman. Isidore Gr. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York
6, N. Y.
ISIr. Arens. Where were you when the subpena was actually served
upon you?
Mr. Ossip. At my work.
Mr. Arens. Where ?
Mr. Ossip. 180 East 16th Street.
Mr. Arens. And what is the establishment? Wliat is there ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6333
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr.AREXs. Why?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. Because it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Is that a newspaper ?
Mr. Ossip. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. That is the Kussky Golos, a Communist newspaper, is
it not?
Mr. Ossip. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. What is the name of the paper ?
Mr. Arexs. He says not that he knows. Is the Russky Golos news-
paper headquartered at 130 East 16th Street in New York?
Mr. Ossip. I use the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question for this reason : He has just stated
that he didn't think that the Russky Golos was a Communist news-
paper, and he has just told us that the subpena was served upon him
at the place which is the headquarters of the Russky Golos newspaper,
and, therefore, I respectfully request that he be ordered and directed
to answer.
Mr. Moulder (presiding) . The witness is so directed.
Mr. Ossip. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly keep your voice up, Mr. Ossip ?
Mr. Ossip. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Where and when were vou born ?
Mr. Ossip. In January 1, 1909, in the TTkraine, U. S. S. R.
Mr. Arens. And when did you arrive in the United States ?
Mr. Ossip. January 2, 1929.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Ossip. By my f atlier, by my father's citizen paper.
Mr. Arens. Your father was naturalized wlien ?
Mr. Ossip. In November 14, 1927.
Mr. Arens. And you didn't arrive in the country until 1929; is
that correct ?
Mr. Ossip. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Give us just a Avord, if you please, now, Mr. Ossip, about
your employment since you arrived in the United States. What was
your first princi])al employment?
Mr. Ossip. Fii-st I was working as a pipe cutter, cutting pipes, in
an iron company, and I don't remember the number, on the north side
of New York City, an iron shop.
Mr. Arens. What was your next principal employment ?
Mr. Ossip. National Biscuit Co., in New York City.
Mr. Arens. And your next principal employment?
Mr. Ossip. Next I went to automobile school on Second Avenue,
New York City, and I took tlie course of a mechanic and driver, and
then after that I was working in a garage, 23 Broome Street, for Sam
Green})erg, New York City.
Mr. Arens. And your next employment ?
Mr. Ossip. My next employment, I tliink, I worked for my father
as a truckdriver.
^Ir. Arens. And your next employment ?
^[r. Ossip. T don't remember what was next.
6334 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Well, somewhere along that line, in that time, did you
AYork for the International Workers Order?
Mr. Ossip. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you work about that time for the American Russian
Fraternal Society?
]Mr. OssiP. I decline to ansAver on the protection of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. You at one time, as a matter of fact, were national
secretary of the American Russian Fraternal Society, were you not ?
Mr. Ossip. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Ossip, I want to invite your attention to
certain documents. The first document is an article from the Com-
munist Daily Worker of March 1954 — page 5 of March 3, 1954, issue —
entitled "248 Delegates Organize Fight To Repeal Walter-McCarran
Act," and it is a conference in which a person by the name of Con-
stantin Ossip is identified here as treasurer of a newly formed organi-
zation, the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at this exhibit, please, sir, and tell this committee whether
or not you are accurately described in this exhibit as treasurer of this
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 182," see appendix, p. 7419.)
]\Ir. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Were you treasurer of such an organization referred
to in the document mentioned by comisel ?
Mr. Ossip. I like to invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, you were treasurer of the New York Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born ; w^ere you not ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Kindly keep your voice up.
Mr. Ossip. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a reproduction of the Lamp, the
official publication of the New York Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, under date of 1954, the March-April edition. In the
article appearing in the upper right-hand corner are the lists of the
officers of this organization, including Constantin Ossip, treasurer.
Please tell this committee whether or not you are accurately identified
there?
(See exhibit No. 112, appendix, p. 7294.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How long have j^ou known your counsel ?
Mr. Ossip. Not that I remember.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Ossip. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long have you known him ? Did yon know him
2 weeks ago ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. About 2 w^eeks ago, sir.
Mr. Arens. Who introduced you to him ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Scherer. What was the answer ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Sctierer. Can you speak a little loudei-, witness? Would you
push that microphone closer to you, please ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6335
Mr. Arens. Do you know Mr. Gellert, the witness wlio just preceded
you to the witness stand ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Was your counsel arranged for you by a person known
by you to be a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Ossir. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a contractual arrangement with your
counsel for paying him for his services ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a reproduction of a letter con-
cerning a New York Conference To Defend the Rights of Foreign
Born Americans, to be held March 19, 1955, under the auspices of
the New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which
the treasurer of that organization is Constantin Ossip. Please tell
this committee whether or not you arc accurately identified there as
treasurer of that organization ?
(See exhibit No. 113, appendix, p. 7295.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of local S065 of the Inter-
national Workers Order ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention now, Mr. Ossip, to a
stool-pigeon publication. People have been telling us the last few
days that anyone who identifies a person as a Communist is a stool
pigeon. Therefore, I would suggest this might be called a stool-
pigeon publication. It is a publication of the Communist Party.
The publication of the Communist Party is entitled "Two Decades
of the Communist Party, New York State, USA."
There are congratulations, on the Communist Party's 20th anni-
versary. Please look at this publication, and tell us whether or not
you are accurately identified by the Communist Party's publication
as one of the Comrades ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 183a, b,'' see appendix, pp. 7420,
7421.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a docmnent, which is a publica-
tion entitled, "The New Order," — April, 1938, Convention Issue —
and it is an organ of the International Workers Order according to
its masthead here, listing a number of delegates to a convention of
the International Workers Order, including one Constantin Ossip.
Please look at this document, sir, and tell us whether or not you are
accurately identified there as one of the delegates?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 184a-c," see appendix, pi). 7422-
7424.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what you have done in the course of the last
few years to assert your position on matters of national legislation,
civil rights legislation, immigration legislation, or legislation of any
kind ?
(Witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. It is a perfectly legitimate activity for any person to
assert his views on legislation, but just tell this committee what you
have done in the course of the last few years to assert your views on
immigration matters.
6336 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Ossir. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Akens. Did you attend or were you a leader in a National Con-
ference to Defend the Rights of the Foreign Born held in New York
City in December of 1954?
Mr. Ossn'. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, the summary of the proceedings
of the National Conference To Defend the Rights of the Foreign
Born, in New York City, December 1954, in which a number of peo-
ple are listed as leaders of nationality groups who made reports in-
cluding one "K. Ossip," from the Russian group. Kindly look at this
document, and I invite your attention particularly where my finger is
pointing, and tell this committee whether or not you are accurately
described in that document as a participant and leader in the con-
ference ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Russian section of the Communist Party?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
, Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a document, a publication of the
American Slav Congress, a rally to win the peace, 1946, in which your
name appears as a leader of the Russian section of the American
Slav Congress. Kindly look at this document and tell this commit-
tee whether or not you are accurately described in that document ?
(See exhibit No.'68, appendix, p. 7213.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been at Foley Square, New York City ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I suggest the witness be ordered and directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
( AYitness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Ossip. I tliink I was there once.
Mr. Arens. What was the occasion for you being there ?
My. Ossip. I like to invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were there as a picket, were you not, at Foley
Square, on behalf of the Communist traitors who were convicted; isn't
that correct ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
INIr. Arens. Are you a veteran of the war ?
Mr. Ossip. Yes. sir.
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ?
Mr. Ossip. I served in the United States Army.
]\rr. Arens. Where and what physical location ?
^Ir. Ossip. The ])hysical location, I had my training in Camp
TMieeler, basic training, and then I was assigned to the 79th Chemical
Company, smokescreen generator, and I went with the 79th to Eng-
land, and in England I was assigned to the 23d Battalion Head-
quarters, and I was in Normandy.
iSIr. Arens. Do you still have your United States Army uniform?
My. Ossip. I think so.
]\rr. Arens. Did you use your TTnited States Army uniform in a
picket in August 1949, before Judge Medina's court in Foley Square?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6337
Mr. Ossip. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember being in a picket line before Judge
Medina's court in New York City, in 1949 ?
Mr. Ossip. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir, I lay before you now a photostatic copy
of an article appeari'ng in the Communist Daily Worker, of August
1949, August 10 (p. 3):
Members of the International Workers Order who are veterans will join a
veterans picket line. * * *
Veterans were urged to wear their decorations and overseas caps.
Kindly look at that article and see if that refreshes your recollection ?
(See exhibit No. 90, appendix, p. 7255.)
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ossip. I still don't remember if I was there, sir.
Mr. Arens. You don't remember whether or not this is an accurate
account of the situation ?
Mr. Ossip. I don't recall.
]Mr. Needleman. You asked him wliether he was there.
Mr. Arens. You don't remember whether you participated ^
Mr. Ossip. I don't recall.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, were you a member of the Communist Party
at the time that you were in the armed services of the United States ?
Mr. Ossip. I would like to invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a document which is a call to
a United Labor and Peoples conference for May Day 1949, in which
you are listed as a sponsor — New York secretary, American-Russian
Fraternal Society, IWO. Please tell this committee whether or not
you are accurately described there and whether or not you did so
participate.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 185a-c," see appendix, pp. 7425-
7427.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the May Day celebration in 1949 ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, I invite your attention to a document, which is a
call to the United Labor and Peoples Conference for May Day 1951,
in which a number of people are listed as sponsors, including a C.
Ossip, Russian-American Society. Kindly look at that and tell us
whether or not that person is you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 186a-c," see appendix, pp. 7428-
7430.)
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Israel Amter?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Carl Brodsky ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were one of their buddies when they were running
for public office, were you not, one of their supporters ?
Mr. Ossip. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the statf
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Moulder. The witness will be excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly come forward ?
6338 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY 0? JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, you have been sworn on this record in the
course of tlie hist day or so ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lautxer. That is correct-
Mr. Arens. You indicated to me informally this morning- that you
wanted to give additional information for this record in response to
the series of questions posed to you yesterday by Representative
Scherer ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct-
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that you just proceed.
Mr. Lautner. To my understanding yesterday, the question was
posed whether there is any qualitative change in the Communist Party
in this country, and I gave answers to that. I would like to document
further, my answer to strengthen that answer.
I have before me a magazine, an official Soviet publication called
International Affairs. This publication came into being after the
dissolution of the Coimnunist Information Bureau with headquarters
in Bucharest, and the dissolution of its official organ called For a Last-
ing Peace, for a People's Democracy.
This official publication. International Affairs, is a Soviet journal
published monthly in Russian and English. It states that its aim is
to promote knowdedge and understanding of international problems.
It discusses the foreign policies of the Soviet Union and other coun-
tries, current events, international economic problems, and the situa-
tion in particular countries and areas.
Its contributors are experts both from the Soviet Union and other
countries. This publication is distributed by the same Soviet agency
that distributes New Times and other official publications of the Soviet
Union, widely distributed in the Communist Party.
In the United States this publication is distributed by, among others,
Imported Publications and Products, 4 West 16th Street, New York,
N. Y. This particular setup was organized under the leadership of
one Margaret Krmnbein. Margaret Krumbein was on the National
Review Commission, the discipline commission of the Communist
Party, USA, at the time I was a member of that commission.
Now, in this publication there is an article headed, "For Peace,
Democracy, and National Independence," and a subheading says,
"Communist Parties of the Capitalist Countries in tlie Struggle for
Unity in Action of All Patriotic Forces Against Imperialist Reaction
and the Danger of a New War." That article was written by one
V. Kortunov.
I would like to read just a few excerpts of how this article reflects
Soviet policy and gives guidance and leadership to the other Com-
munist Parties.
A leading role in the struggle for peace, democracy, and social progress is
played by the great, almost 30-milllon army of Communists who in each country
unite and direct into a common channel all the streams of the modern democratic
movement.
The Communist Parties of the different countries are working in the most
varied conditions : The Communist Party of the Soviet Union heads the struggle
of the Soviet people in advancing from socialism to communism ; the Com-
munist I'arties of the people's democracies are leading the popular masses in
the struggle to build socialism ; in the capitalist countries the Communist Parties
act as the vanguard of all the patriotic forces in the fight for peace, democracy.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6339
and socialism. But despite the variety of conditions, the international Com-
munist movement as a whole is a single and monolithic force, united on a
common basis — the immortal and constantly developing Marxist-Leninist teach-
ing which is the guide for the Communist Parties of the world. Creative
application of the great ideas of Marxism in keeping with the constantly
changing conditions of social life makes the Communist movement an invincible
force.
Discussing, among parties, the party of the United States, it says
the following :
The Communist Party of the United States is working under exceptionally
difficult conditions at the moment, being subjected to persecution and repressions.
Communists are banned from government service, denied jobs in some branches
of industry, barred from teaching in schools and from holding leading positions
in the trade unions. Despite these hardships the American Communistic are
waging a courageous struggle for peace and the vital interests of the people.
This is another quotation :
After the Second World War, the international Communist movement entered
into a new, higher phase ; it has acquired unprecedented strength and has every
possibility of achieving further success. Undoubtedly this success will be
facilitated by the important decision reached by eight Communist and Workers'
Parties to dissolve their Information Bureau, which has outlived itself as a
form of contact between the parties. The Communist Parties will find new
forms for mutual links and contact.
A final quote is this :
A feature of this new phase is the monolithic solidarity of the Communist
Parties, the undivided triumph of the Marxist-Leninist ideology, and the further
strengthening of the parties' ranks. The elaboration by the 20th Congress of
the Communist Party of the Soviet Union of a number of vital questions of the
day greatly assists the Communist Parties. Communists all over the world
unanimously approved the results of the 20th Congress of the CPSU.
I wanted to read this in order to strengthen my verbal answers
that there is no (|ualitative rhange in the positions of the Communist
Party as long as they adhere to Marxism-Leninism as an ideology,
as a basic principle. As long as they adhere loj^ally to these prin-
ciples, they are still part of the worldwide conspiracy headed by the
Soviet Union against democracy and against freedom and against the
dignity and rights of the human individual as an individual.
Mr. Moulder. I think the committee will stand in recess until
2 p.m.
(Whereupon the committee recessed at 12 : 30 p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 1956
The hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., Hon. Francis E. Walter (chair-
man of the committee) presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jeanette Stern Turner, will you please come
forward ?
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Turner. I do.
(5340 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEANETTE STEEN TURNER; ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. TuRXKR. Jeanette S. Turner, and I live at 4144 48th Street,
Long Island City, and I am a housewife.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Turner, in response
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself ?
Mr. Needleman. My name is Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway,
New York, N.Y. '
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Turner, how long have you known your counsel ?
Mrs. Turner. For a number of years,
Mr. Arens. Where were you born? I will just ask you where you
were born, and I will not ask a lady when she was born.
Mrs. Turner. That is very kind of you. I was born in Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. And give us, if you please, just a brief thumbnail sketch
of your education.
Mrs. Turner. Much of my education was private, but I did go to
attend the Chicago and Northwestern Universities.
Mr. Arens. Did you graduate from Northwestern University?
Mrs. Turner. From neither.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education ?
Mrs. Turner. I don't know that it was ever completed.
Mr. Arens. When did you finish your training at Northwestern?
Mrs. Turner. I can't remember the year.
Mr. Arens. Now, in 1934 did you make application for a passport
to go abroad ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And was a passport issued pursuant to that application ?
Mrs. Turner. I believe it was, but I didn't use it.
Mr. Arens. Where did you intend to go when you applied for your
passport ?
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember. I had to take a previous trip in
which I covered many countries in Europe, and I was going over
the same territory.
Mr. Arens. What countries in Europe had you visited?
Mrs. Turner. France, Switzerland, and England.
Mr. Arens. Did you get into any of the countries we now call Iron
Curtain countries ?
Mrs. Turner. No.
Mr. Arens. May I ask you now, did you take a trip abroad in 1945 ?
Mrs. Turner. I believe that I will invoke the protection of the fifth
amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. AVhy?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6341
Mrs. Turner. Because it mav incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Do 3'ou honestly feel that if you told this committee
whether or not you took a trip abroad in 1945 that you would be
supplying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, did you have a passport in 1935 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had a passport, but I did not use it.
Mr. Arens. I am now interrogating her about the second trip.
The Chairman. Did you have a passport in 1945 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had one in 1935, but I did not use it.
The Chairman. Then you did not take a trip abroad in 1935?
Mr. Arens. Not on the first passport. I am now interrogating her
about a trip in 1945, 10 years subsequent.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Arens. Now, where were you emploj^ed in 1945?
Mrs. Turner. I have not been employed.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation in 1945 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had no occupation except that of housewife.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever executive secretary of the New York
City Consumers' Council?
Mrs. Turner. I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Well, did you have an occupation at the time that you
made application for your passport in 1945 ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I had no occupation then.
Mr. Arens. Did you have the title of executive secretary of the
New York City Consumers Council ?
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you were executive secre-
tary of the New York City Consumers Council in 1945, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes; there may be some attempt to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of a passport
application of November 1945, bearing the signature of a Jeannette
Turner, and I will ask you if you would kindly look at the signature
and tell us whether or not that is your signature.
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the protection of the fifth amendment,
please.
Mr. Arens. You understand that as a witness before this commit-
tee you are entitled to receive certain expense money and a per diem.
You understand that ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. In order to do so it is necessary for you to sign a
voucher. I respectfully ask if you will now sign where marked
"payee" on a voucher for your expenses ?
Mr. Needleman. If that will be filled in I will advise the client
to sign it, and I can't advise her to sign a blank document.
Mr. Arens. We will have it filled in, Mr. Needleman.
Now, in 1949 did you make application for a passport?
85333— 57— pt. 1 14
6342 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
(The witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner, Well, it might incriminate me, or it m;vy incriminate
me.
Mr. Arens. Did you travel abroad in 1949 ?
The Chairman : What was that question ?
Mr. Arens. I asked her if she made an application for a passport
in 1949.
The Chairman. And you feel that if you would answer the question
as to whether or not you made an application for a passport, you might
be prosecuted criminally ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
The Chairman. What crime could anyone possibly be charged
with for making an application for a United States passport?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this on the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Wha,tisthat?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you take a trip abroad in 1949?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you leave the United States of America in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You decline to answer the last two questions. For
what reason do you decline or refuse to answer the questions ?
Mrs. Turner. It m.ay incriminate me under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You honestly believe that if you admitted that you
took a trip out of the United States, without stating where or for what
purpose, you might be prosecuted criminally ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
The Chairman. What crime could you be charged with for taking
a trip ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. Well, I claim the protection of the fifth amendment.
' Mr. Arens. Did you, in 1949, have friends in France that you
wanted to visit ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
. Mrs. Turner. I again invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and
directed to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. Did you
have friends in France in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, in 1949 you did take a trip to Europe; did you
not?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, did you, in 1949, take a trip to Mexico ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I had no occupation.
Mr. Arens. What was your source of income in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I have a private income.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6343
Mr. Arexs. "What organization were you affiliated with in 1949 ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. What organization was she connected with?
Mr. Arens. Among others, it was the Communist Party, Mr.
Chairman.
The CHAiRaiAN. Just a moment. Is that a fact ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer this under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the Communist Party paid
your expenses on these trips, didn't they ?
Mrs. Turner. I beg your pardon. I explained that I have a private
income.
Mr. Arens. Now, did the Department of State in the course of
the early 1950's, in ll)5-2, request you to surrender your passport ?
Mrs. TuRXFJt. I refuse to answer, or I decline to answer under the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfuly suggest that that is a
purely legitimate question and should require an answer.
The CiiAiRsrAN. You ai"e directed to answer that question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fiftli amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you send a letter to the Department of State
under date of November 30, 1952, saying, in effect, that you had
lost your passport ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Kindly keep your voice up, ma'am. I lay before you
now a photostatic copy of a letter signed "Jeanette S. Turner," ad-
dressed to Mr. Thomas McQuillan, Post Office Building, New York,
in which you state that you had lost your passport. I will ask you
if you will kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not
that is a true and accurate reproduction of the original.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 187," see appendix, p. 7431.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you, in 1937, executive secretary of the Women's
Committee, Civic Division, New York, of the American League
Against War and Fascism ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment on
that.
Mr. Arens. Are you against fascism ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't wish to discuss my opinions witli this com-
mittee.
Mr. Arens. Were you against fascism in 1937 ?
Mrs. Ti'RNER. Again I do not wish to discuss my opinions with this
committee.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, if you please, a photostatic copy
of a document which is a reproduction of the Comnumist Daily Worker
of April 19, 1937 (p. 2), protesting the bill against women represent-
ing the women's division of the American Tieague Against War and
Fascism. A number of people, including "Jeanette Stern Turner,
executive secretary of the women's committee, city division, left
yesterday for Washington, D. C." to confer with certain Congressmen
respecting some legislation.
6344 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Please look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not you have a
recollection of leaving New York City to go to Washington to confer
with some Congressman on some legislation.
(Document •marked "Exhibit No. 188," see appendix, p. 7-i32.)
Mrs. Turner, I invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. ScHERER. What was the date of that ?
Mr.AREXs. 1937.
The Chairman. You invoke the fifth amendment ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What crime is there in discussing legislation with
Congressmen ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.)
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention to a photostatic copy of the
Daily Worker (January 21, 1941, p. 1) with reference to still another
one of your activities as indicated bj' a photograph and an article in
this Daily Worker.
Are you the Jeanette Turner who is pictured here in this issue
which is captioned, "Seamen's Wives volunteer to aid work of Ameri-
can Peace Mobilization"? Look at that photograph and tell us
whether or not that is your photograph.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 189," see appendix, p. 7433.)
Mr. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You were at that time working with the Fascist forces
in condemning American aid, were you not ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer on a similar basis.
Mr. Arens. Now, what have you done, if you will please tell this
committee, in the course of the last few years in activities with refer-
ence to the Internal Security Act, the so-called Mundt bill, when it
was in the House of Representatives? Do j-ou have a recollection of
any activity in that respect ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, as a matter of fact, in 1948 you joined, as the
representative of the New York City Consumers Council, in protesting
the enactment of the Mundt bill by the Congress, did you not ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of, or affiliated with, the
Congress of American Women ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment also on that.
The Chairman. Just a moment. Was that the New York City
Consumers Council ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the New York Consumers
Council ?
Mrs. Turner. I will invoke the fifth amendment, please.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer that question because that is
not listed as a proscribed organization.
Mrs. Turner, I prefer to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a document (Daily
Worker article, January 6, 1938, p. 3) entitled "Women C. P. Lead-
ers Honor Mother Bloor."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 190," see appendix, p. 7434.)
First of all, tell us who was Mother Bloor?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6345
Mrs. Turner. I refuse to answer it under the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Now, tliis article indicates that a number of women
Communist Party leaders honored Mother Bloor and among the prom-
inent people who were at this celebration alluded to in this Daily
Worker exhibit, is a person identified here as Jeanette Turner.
Please look at that article and tell us whether or not that prompts
your recollection with reference to your participation in the
celebration.
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, in order that you may be paid by this
committee for your per diem and for your travel expenses, we filled
out the expense voucher. Kindly sign that right there where it says
"Payee."
(The witness signed the document.)
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that after this voucher has been
processed that that part of it bearing the signature of this witness be
incorporated in this record so that there may be a comparison of sig-
natures to other documents.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 191," see appendix, p. 7435.)
The Chairman. All right.
]\Ir. Arens. Now, I lay before you a document, "A Call to an Action
Conference for Freedom", warning against proposed legislation of
the House Committee on Un-American Activities titled "Subversive
Activity Control Act of 1948.""
A number of people, according to this pamphlet, are going to get
together and fight and they are going to solicit their Congressmen
and people all over the country to oppose this legislation.
Kindly look at this document on w^hich your name appears as one
of the driving forces and tell us whether or not you have a recollection
of that participation.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 192a-c," see appendix, pp. 7436-
7438.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, I have here before me a photostatic copy of a
letterhead (dated February 2.5, 1949) of the Congress of American
Women, affiliated with the Women's International Democratic Feder-
ation, also a consultant to the United Nations.
One of the vice presidents of this organization, according to this
letterhead is a Jeanette Stern Turner. Please look at this letterhead
which I shall now lay before you calling for direct negotiations with
Premier Stalin and tell us whether or not you are the Jeanette Stern
Turner identified on this letterhead as a vice president of this organ-
ization that is a consultant to the United Nations and is affiliated with
the Women's International Democratic Federation.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 193," see appendix, p. 7439.)
(Witness conferred witli counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are certainly not ashamed of anything you may
have done for the legitimate interests of peace, are you, ma'am '^
Mrs. Turner. I certainly am not ashamed of anything I have done,
but it is a matter of legal ])rotection.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly fear, and I ask you this question in all
sincerity for the purpose of clarification of this record, that if you
told this committee now while you are under oath whether or not you
6346 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
have been vice president of the Congress of American Women you
would be supplyiuff information which might be used against you in
a criminal proceedmg?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. According to the Communist Daily Worker of February
28, 1949 (pp. 1 and 9), there was formed a Committee for Free Po-
litical Advocacy, apparently which would be a very laudable objective.
AYere you affiliated with this organization?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember it at all.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the Daily
Worker of February 28, 1949, in which you, as a representative of the
New York Consumers Committee, are identified in connection with
that organization and see if that refreshes your recollection.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 194," see appendix, pp. 7440,
7441.)
(AVitness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. No, it does not refresh my recollection at all.
Mr. Arens. Now, I ask you whether or not you have been active in
an organization protesting the jailing of three Communist defendants
in 1949 in New York City.
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Now, according to the June 1949 issue of the Far East
Spotlight, a copy of which publication I have in my hand, a publication
of the Commiitee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy, you are listed
as a member of the executive committee of this organization.
Kindly look at this document which I now lay before you, and tell
this committee whether or not you are a member of the executive com-
mittee, or were a member of the executive committee, of the Committee
for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 195a, b," see appendix, pp. 7442,
7443.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You have maintained a considerable interest in the
course of the last several years in the immigration laws of this coun-
try, have you not ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. AVhat has been the basis of that interest of yours in the
immigration laws of this country ?
(AVitness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. As before, I repeat, I refuse to discuss my opinions
with this committee.
Mr. Arens. You just told us that you have maintained a consider-
able interest in the immigration laws over the course of the last few
years, is that correct ?
Mrs. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. AVTiat have j^ou done in the pursuit of that interest of
yours with reference to the immigration laws ?
(AVitness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't know what you mean when you say, what I
have done.
Mr. Arens. Have you joined with others in any organizations de-
signed to affect the legislative currents on immigration ?
Now, Mrs. Turner, the truth is that you have been an active sponsor
of the National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Bom
Americans. Isn't that true?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6347
Mrs. TuKNER. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a reproduction of a letterhead
of the National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans, dated February 16. 1953, which letterhead shows among
the sponsors, Jeanette S. Turner.
Please look at this and tell us whether or not you are she.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 19G," see appendix, p. 7444.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Now, in December of 1952 you were one of the leading
participants in the National Conference to Defend the Rights of
Foreign Born Americans, were you not? This was held in Detroit,
Mich.
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that in December of 1952, in Detroit, Mich., you were one of
the speakers, one of the leading officials of the National Conference
to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans held in Detroit,
]Mich., and you represented at that conference the National Women's
Appeal to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you make a speech in Detroit in 1952, in December ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You were not quite as shy in your presentation in
Detroit in 1952 as you are before this committee, were you ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, in the pursuit of your interest on immigration
matters, I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of a letter which
is addressed to the chairman of the House Committee on Veterans
Affairs, Washington, D. C, March (4) , 1956, signed by Jeanette S.
Turner, with reference to a certain person Avho was having his pension
discontinued because he had been found to be a Communist.
Kindly look at that letter and tell this committee whether or not
that is one of your public activities and services.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 197a, b," see appendix, pp. 7445,
7446.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Wlio was this man concerning whom you wrote the
chairman of the PTouse Committee on Veterans Affairs?
Mrs. Turner. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Robert Thompson was his name ; was it not ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer, fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who asked you to write this letter to the chairman of
the Veterans Affairs Committee?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You understand you have a perfect right to write let-
ters to anybody, don't you ?
Mrs. Turner, You are asking an opinion, and I am not expressing
opinions or discussing opinions here.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you, if you please, ma'am, a docu-
ment, which is a call to a Bill of Rights Conference to be held in the
Henry Hudson Hotel in New York City (July 16-17, 1949) listing
a number of people who are sponsors of this conference on the Bill
of Rights and a very laudable phraseology, to "defend" the Bill of
6348 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Rights, includhie:, iimonp: other persons, one who is identified here as
Jeanette Stern Turner, New York City Consumers Council.
Kindly look at this and tell us whether or not you are she.
(See exhibit No. 62c, appendix, p. 7208.)
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, do you remember in attendance at that confer-
ence, the attack that was made upon the Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember an attack that was made upon the
so-called Trotskyites ?
Mrs. Turner. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention now to still another document,
which is on the letterhead of the Conference for Peaceful Alterna-
tives to the Atlantic Pact, dated August 21, 1949, and attachment.
It is a form letter which was sent to each, we understand, of tlie
Members of the Congress. Kindly look at this document in which
the name Mrs. Jeanette S. Turner, executive secretary. New York
City Consumers Council, Long Island, appears and tell this committee
while you are under oath whether or not you participated in that
organization.
(See exhibit No. 120d, appendix, p. 7311.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Needleman. On what page is her name?
Mr. Arens. There it is.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember being connected with it.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember being connected with the National
Women's Appeal ?
Mr. Moulder. I did not understand the response of the witness.
Mrs. Turner. I don't remember it.
j\Ir. Needleman. In connection with that organization.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember being connected with the National
Women's Appeal as one of the officers ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer, invoking the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I do not know what the Communist conspiracy is.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the stall inter-
rogation of this witness.
The Chairman. Mrs. Turner, this committee hoped that because
of the truly horrible attack made by Russia on Hungary that even
the hard-boiled American Communists might be Avilling to make a
contribution to the security of America by telling what they could
about the conspiracy and about the connection that the American
Communists have with Russia.
We are indeed disappointed that you and these other witnesses did
not see fit to assist this committee at this time.
Mr. Scherer. I have just one question, Mr. Chairman.
Counsel for the committee, Mrs. Turner, asked you about the letter
you wrote to Congressman Teague as chairman of the House Veterans
Committee on behalf of Robert Thompson.
COMIMXJXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6349
You wrote that letter in March of this year, just a few months
ago. At the time that you wrote that letter on behalf of Robert
Thompson j-ou kneAv, did 3'ou not, that he had been convicted under
the Smith Act and had jumped bail ?
("Witness conferred AAith counsel.)
Mrs. Turner. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. That is all.
Mr. Arens. Mr. A. Harrj- Levitan, please.
Tlie Chairman. Do you swear the testimonj'^ you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Leaitax. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF A. HAKRY LEVITAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH rOREE
Mr. Arens. Kindl}^ identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Levitan. My name is A. Harry Levitan, and my offices are at
1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia, and I am a member of the bar of
Philadelphia County.
Mr. Arens. And how long have you been admitted to practice
law?
Mr. Levitan. I Avas admitted to the practice of law in October
1935.
Mr. Arens. For the purpose of further identification, you repre-
sented this morning Mr. Sol Rotenberg ?
Mr. LE^^TAN. I did, and I have represented man}'^ people before
this committee, and I will represent some others this afternoon if they
are called.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
]Mr. Levitan. I am not.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lea^tan. I decline to answer that question under that provision
of the fifth amendment -which says that I need not be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Arens. "Were you a member of the Communist Party a year
ago?
Mr. Levitan. I decline to answer that question for the reason given.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months
ago?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. Will you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months
ago?
Mr. Lea^tan. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 9 months
ago?
Mr. Levitan. I was not.
Mv. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 12 montlis
ago?
Mr. Levitan. I will refuse to ansAver that for the reason already
given.
6350 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party 11 months
ago
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer that for the reason given.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party lOi/^
months ago?
Mr. FoRER. Can we shorten this numbers game by
The Chairman. This is not a numbers game, Mr. Forer, and I think
we can sliorten it very considerably by asking the witness one ques-
tion. When did you cease to be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Levitan. 1 have not admitted being a member of the Com-
munist Party, Mr. WaUer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfuly suggest in the presence of this witness,
another witness be brought forward so that we can have a clearer
identification. Mr. Herman Thomas, will you kindly come forward?
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Thomas. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN THOMAS
Mr. Arens. Mr, Thomas, you have previously testified before this
committee ; is that correct ?
Mr. Thomas. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I was an undercover agent for the FBI.
Mr. Arens. Please tell us the period of time in which you were an
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Thomas. From April 1944 until May 6, 1954.
Mr. Arens. During the period of time that you were a member of
the Communist Party, did you have occasion to make the acquaint-
anceship of a person by the name of A. Harry Levitan?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know that person as a Communist ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify A. Harry Levitan, who
to your certain knowledge was a Comunist?
Mr. Thomas. Was a Communist, yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in the hearing room today?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point him out to the Committee?
Mr, Thomas. He is seated right here.
TESTIMONY OF A. HARRY LEVITAN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. You have just heard the testimony of Mr, Hennan
Thomas, in which he said that he knew you as a Communist. Was he
lying or telling the truth?
Mr. FoRER. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman. LTnder the circum-
stances of this case, I ask that I be given leave to briefly cross ex-
amine Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Arens. Was he lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. Levitan. We would like to cross examine Mr. Thomas.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6351
The Chairman. You can answer the question.
Mr. FoRER. Mr. Moulder was williucr to give nie that opportunity
yesterday.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Moulder is not the chairman of this committee,
as you know.
Mr. FoRER. The committee ought to have a policy.
The Chairman. We have a policy, and it is in the rules. Go ahead
please.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Levitan, you have just heard the statements by Mr.
Thomas. He said that you were a Communist. Was he lying or was
he telling the truth ^
Mr. Le\t:tan. Mr. Thomas testified in a deportation case, in the
Gates case, where I was counsel for Mr. Michael Gates, and in that
testimony he swore that he did not know whether or not I was a
Communist.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not Mr. Thomas has
just perjured himself when he said that he knew you as a Communist
while he was an undercover agent in the FBI.
Mr. Levitan. Does this connnittee expect me to risk my professional
reputation, and my standing at the bar, on the basis of testimony of
a man who repeatedly for $35 a day is a Government witness?
Mr. Arens. I suggest the witness be ordered and directed to answer
the principal outstanding question.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Levitan. I decline to answer under the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Now, you are talking about youi* reputation as a
lawyer. I know of no better way to remove the cloud that has been
over you for a long while than by here and now, under oath, saying
that you were not a Communist.
Mr. Levitan. I will remove that cloud, sir, at the proper time and
place, before a committee of my peers.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
Avere sworn in as an attorney and took an oath to support and defend
the Constitution of the United States?
(Witness conferred his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. Further, sir, in view of my statement as to Mr.
Thomas' testimony in the Michael Gates deportation case, I ask leave
to have my attorney cross examine him.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Levitan. I didn't hear the question.
3Ir. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
were admitted as a lawyer, and took an oath to support and defend
the Constitution of the United States?
Mr. LE\^TAN. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Wlien was that ?
Mr. Le^tan. I told you ; October of 1935.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time a member of the Communist
Party while you were a licensed lawyer to practice before the courts
in Pennsylvania?
Mr. Levitan. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
given before, and 1 respectfully ask leave to cross-examine Mr.
Thomas.
6352 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Areks. You have asked that three times now, and it has been
declined each time.
Mr. Levitan. I say that common decency and fairness requires that
my counsel be ^iven the opportunity.
The Chairman. The only "common decency and fairness" question
is whether or not you are goinsf to assist your Government in its at-
tempts to prevent from happening- here what has happened in many
other countries of the world.
Mr. Levitan. I have and I will. I support this Government, and
I will in every way.
The Chairman. Why don't you answer these questions then?
Mr. Levitan. You wish me to risk my reputation and my profes-
sional career on the basis of testimony of a $35-a-da3^ witness, who
has again and again acted as a witness.
Mr. Arens. "VATiy don't you stand up like a red-blooded American
and deny you have ever been a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Le^tetan. I have answered that question.
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN THOMAS— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, tell us the circumstances under which
you knew this witness as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Thomas. I attended several closed meetings of the Communist
Party in Philadelphia, at which time Harry Levitan was present.
Mr. Levitan. When I asked you those questions at the Gates case,
you didn't so state.
The Chairman. Never mind.
Mr. Arens. During what period of time were these closed meetings
at which you were in attendance with Mr. Levitan ?
Mr. Thomas. From 1946 up to 1951.
TESTIMONY OF A. HARRY LEVITAN— Resumed
Mr. Levitan. I have the greatest respect for this committee, and I
do not mean to be impudent, but when charges of this nature are made
by an individual whose business it is for pay to inform
The Chairman. No ; Mr. Thomas is a good American, and if you
were half the American that he is you would answer these questions.
Mr. Levitan. I have no doubt that I am, sir, 'and I hope to convince
3^ou, sir.
The Chairman. You talk about respecting this committee, and a
moment ago when you said that you were going to have this issue of
your standing tried before a committee of your peers, it didn't go
unnoticed.
Mr. Levitan. The great privilege which I have been given is sub-
ject to that.
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment. In view of his attack on this witness,
I have a question, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask. When the wit-
ness here said that he had attended closed Communist Party meetings
with you, was he telling the truth or was he lying?
Mr. Levitan. I say to you that he did not so state when he attacked
me while I was conducting a deportation hearing.
The Chairman. That is not responsive.
Mr. Scherer. My question is. When this man said that he attended
closed Communist Party meetings with you, as he stated just a few
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6353
minutes ago under oath, was he telling the truth or was he lying? If
you say that he is not telling the truth, I will ask that your testimony
and his testimony be referred to the Department of Justice.
Mr. Levitax. Precisely.
The Chairman. Then answer the question.
Mr. Levitax, I decline to answer that question for the reason which
has been given.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Levitan, in February of 1953, did you attend
and participate in a conference to repeal the Walter-McCarran Immi-
gration Act held in the Hotel Sylvania?
Mr. Levitax. I think that I did. I am not sure now.
Mr. Arex'S. That is in Philadelphia, by the way, and I lay before
you a document which is "A Call for Action — Conference to Repeal
Walter-McCarran Immigration Act." This conference was to be
held, according to this document, in Philadelphia, Pa. (February 8,
1953) , for the purpose of soliciting people to write their Congressmen ;
and get organizations going in the various communities, and elect dele-
gates to conference, write to Conference Sponsoring Committee, and
other activities, all designed to oppose the Walter-McCarran Immi-
gration Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit Xo. 198a-c,*' see appendix, pp. 7447-
7449.)
Kindly look at that exhibit, and tell us whether or not that refreshes
your recollection with regard to any of your participations in that
movement ^
Mr. Levitax. No; I am not sure, but I think that I spoke agaiust
the Walter-McCarran Act at this conference ; yes, and I think that I
did. I want to make it understood that I speak against many of the
provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act, and I do not take the position
that everything about the Walter-McCarran Act is a bad thing.
Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
made tliis speech ?
Mr. Le\ttax. Oh, please.
Mr. Arexs. Will you please tell us ?
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer that question for the reason given.
Mr. Arexs. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you were a member of the Communist Party when you
partici|)ated in this conference on February 8, 1953.
Mr. LE^^TAX. I put it to you as a fact that you have no evidence in
your files so indicating.
The CiiAiRMAX. What was the date ?
Mr. Arens. 1953.
The Chairman. The files are replete with evidence that in 1953
you were a Communist.
Mr. Levitan. May I see that, sir?
Mr. Chairman. No, that is our file. Is the information we
have correct ?
Mr. Lemtan. May I respectfully call your attention to the fact of
one case when a member of this committee made the same statement
and subsequently a letter was sent out by this committee saying it was
not the case.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not this information
is correct?
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer for the reasons stated.
The Chairman. Proceed.
6354 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Xow, I invite your attention, if you please, sir, to a
document which is a photostatic copy of an article in the Com-
munist Daily Worker of February 25, 1953, page 4, which con-
tains a letter to the editor from Harriet Barron, administrative sec-
I'etary of the American (^onmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
If you will read this letter you will observe that Harr}- Levitan
is identihed in this letter as one of tlie speakers at a confei-ence held
in Philadelphia.
Kindly look at that and see if that confirms your recollection?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 199," see appendix, p. 7450.)
Mr. LE^^:TAN. You mean about tiiis conference ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. LE\aTAN. I told 3'ou I probably spoke against the Walter-
McCarran Act at that meeting.
Mr. Arens. See if this helps you remove the probabilities, and
develop in your mind any degi^ee of certainty ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't see how this can help me. If someone else
writes a letter about a conference, and says that I spoke there, that
may or may not be the case. I have told you that I probably spoke
there.
Mr. Arens. Did you at that conference, make a speech in which
you said that if anyone has any problems, deportation problems,
they should take it up either with you or with Rotenberg?
Mr. Levitan. I did not, to my best recollection, sir. I have never
publicl}^ suggested to people that they come to me as an attorney.
1 have been an immigration and nationality lawyer for about 10 years,
but I don't go around telling everybody publicly to have me as their
lawyer. And I am sure I didn't do it there.
Mr. Arens. Now, please tell this coinmittee whether or not you are
one of the sponsors or were one of the sponsors of the American League
for Peace and Democracy in Philadelphia?
Mr. Levitan. I am not sure of that.
Mr. Arens. Well, let me lay before you a letterhead which might
help refresh your recollection.
Mr. LE\TrAN. I know that I am listed as a sponsor of that organi-
zation. But I do not honestly remember and if I did remember I
would tell you. But I don't honestly remember whether I was a
sponsor by my own permission of that organization.
Mr. Arens. Are you finished now ?
Mr. Levitan. I am finished.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document on the letterhead of the
American League for Peace and Democracy, which is a photostatic
copy of a letter — dated February 3, 1939 — from a person by the name
of Edna, addressed to a Miss Elenor [Eleanor] Fowler of the Amer-
ican League for Peace and Democracy, on which letterhead among
other persons listed as sponsors, is A. Harry Levitan, Esquire. Please
look at that and see whether or not that refreshes your recollection
with reference to any participation or official capacity you had with
that organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 200," see appendix, p. 7451.)
Mr. Levitan. This letter is dated February 3, 1939. I have al-
ready told you that I have no recollection. In other words, I wish
to make it clear that I have heard from other sources that my name
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6355
was listed as a sponsor of this organization, but I have no recollec-
tion as to ^vhether or not I authorized the use of mj'^ name as a
sponsor. If I had, I would tell you. Why don't you ask nie why
I am opposed to the Walter-McCarran Act, and what ought to be
done about it? I am an expert in that field.
The Chairman. You are very modest about it.
Mr. FoRER. He is an expert.
Mr. Arens. May I ask you if you ever took any steps when you
h.eard of being connected with the American League for Peace and
Democracy to cause your name to be removed from the letterhead
of this organization when it was cited as a Communist front?
Mr. Levitan. You know very well, Mr. Arens, that the Supreme
Court of the United States has held that the Attorney General has
no power without a hearing, notice, and an opportunity to defend,
to cite any organization as a Communist-front organization. You
know that, Mr. Arens, as a lawyer. So don't so state to me.
Mr. Arens. You know it has been cited by the Committee on Un-
American Activities on the basis of hearings, and we have had a
number of Communists before us.
Mr. Levitan. I greatly respect the committee — please let me an-
swer this in my oAvn way. There is nothing in the law which says
that this committee has the right to list an organization as an un-
American organization, and I know it does. But with all due respect
to this committee, the Constitution of the United States, as interpreted
by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of /. W. 0. v.
McGrath, decided in 341 United States, that the listing of an
organ ization
The Chairman. Never mind ; we know what the law is.
Mr. Arens. Would you answer the question? The question doesn't
have anything to do with all of this recitation of the Commie line.
Mr. Levitan. Sir, I am not speaking the Commie line. I am speak-
ing what my understanding of the law of this country is.
Mr. Arens. Now, please answer the question. The question is, and
has been for the last 5 minutes, did you take any steps to cause your
name to be removed from this letterhead of the American League for
Peace and Democracy ?
Mr. Levitan. This organization as far as I can know, and this is
1939, as far as I know went out of existence somewhere around 1944
or 1945. I could certainly not do anything after 1945 or 1946 to cause
my name to be removed from a letterhead in 1939. The organization
was out of existence.
The Chairman. Did you know Edna Richter?
Mr. Levitan. Who was Edna Richter, sir?
The Chairman. The executive secretary of the American League
for Peace and Democracy.
Mr. LEvrTAN. In 1939? Is that the date of that letter?
The Chair]vian. Yes.
Mr. Levitan. I have no recollection of that name, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Harry Block ?
^Ir. Levitan. Harry Block ?
The Chairman. Louise L. Beachboard?
6356 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Levi TAX. Louise L. Beachboarcl, I tliink that I recall tliat name.
The Chairman. Rose L. Bloom?
Mr. Levitan. Sir, you are referring to names in 1939, sir.
The Chairman. I am merely asking you if you know them ?
Mr. Levitan. I have no recollection of such names, sir, and if I did
I would tell you.
The Chairman. Then the answer is "Xo"?
Mr. Levitan. The answer is, "I have no recollection."
The Chairman. Do you know Mildred Fairchild?
Mr. Levitan. I think she was a very prominent person in Phila-
delphia.
The Chairman. Do you know Mildred Fairchild ?
Mr. Levitan. Not personally, just by hearsay and reputation.
The Chairman. Do you know Reverend Haslam ?
Mr. Levitan. I have heard of Reverend Ilaslam, but I cannot say
I know him.
Mr. Arens. Were you counsel to the Progressive Party of Pennsyl-
vania in 1949?
Mr. Levitan. I was counsel for the Progressive Party of the State
of Pennsylvania in 1948, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you also counsel in 1949 ?
Mr. Levitan. In 1949 ? After the election, didn't the Progressive
Party disband pretty soon after the election ^ I may have been for
a periocl in 1949 advising them as to certain legal problems ; yes. Yes ;
I think so.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Alexander Wright ?
Mr. Levitan. Alex Wright?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Levitan. I think Alex Wright was connected with the Pro-
gressive Party at one time, and I didn't know him too well, but I know
he was connected with the Progressive Party ; yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you represent the Communist Party in a threatened
action against the Broadwood Hotel in Philadelphia in 1949 ?
Mr. FoRER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. Now he is asking a law^yer
what clients he represented. What is wrong with that ? Suppose he
did?
The Chairman. I don't know what Mr. Arens is leading up to, and
I am sure it is proper and this is a preliminary question, and no harm
can be done by asking a question.
Mr. FoRER. I don't think it is right to ask such a question.
Mr. Arens. As counsel knows, the Communist Party is careful in
the selection of their attorneys.
Mr. FoRER. You know I have represented the Communist Party.
Mr. Levitan. I am going to tell you who I represented because it
is a matter of public record.
Mr. Arens. I will ask vou to look at a copy of the Communist Daily
Worker of March 29, 1949 (p. 11 ) .
Mr. Levitan. Why don't you let me answer the question ?
The Chairman. Wait until a question is asked. Ask the question,
Mr. Arens.
Mr. Levitan. He asked if I represented the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. In the Daily Worker of that date there is an article
with reference to an action instituted by certain attorneys witli refer-
ence to the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6357
Mr, Levitan, I have been counsel for the Connnunist Party on
various occasions.
Mr. Arens. Xow, I want to ask you the succeeding question : Were
you a Communist when 3^ou represented the Connnunist Party in
March of 1949 ?
Mr. IjEvitan. I have refused to answer that question for the reason
that I have stated.
The Chairman. You haven't been asked that question.
Mr. LE\^TAN. I was asked it before.
The Chairman. You were not.
Mr. Levitan. May I tell you about that case ?
Mr. Arens. I would like to read this article in the record to see if
your recollection is refreshed :
Philadelphia, IMarch 28. — The Eastern Peimsyhaiiia Communist Party an-
nounced yesterday that it is fighting the attempt by the Broadwood Hotel to
void a contract for hall where a peace rally is scheduled.
Plans for the meeting are being published nevertheless, Phil Bart, Eastern
Pennsylvania Communist chairman declared. Legal action is being considered
against the Broadwood Hotel. Attorneys Saul Waldman and Harry Levitan
have been retained to represent the party.
Do you recall that action by you on behalf of the Communist Party
and its peace moves and its attempts to get a hall to hold a rally?
Mr. Levitan. It is a constitutional right for the Communist Party
to try to hold a public meeting. I support that right unqualifiedly.
Mr. Arens, Now, please answer the question.
Mr. Levitan. As a lawyer and as a citizen, when the Communist
Party came to me and said, would I be their lawyer so that they could
have a public lawful meeting for which they had a contract, I said,
"yes."
Mr. Arens. Tell the committee who in the Communist Party came
to you and said that ?
Mr. Levitan. Said what ?
Mr. Arens. What you just said they said.
Mr. Levitan. I said I said it.
Mr. Arens. Who of the Communist Party contacted you that you
are talking about ?
Mr. Levitan. I said I said it.
Mr. Arens. The record shows it.
The Chairman. Wait a minute, and we will find out. Who was it
that came to you to retain you ?
Mr. Levitan. When was this, now ?
Mr. Arens. In 1949.
Mr. Levitan. I don't know. I assume it was one of the officials of
the Communist Party.
Mr. xYrens. Who were they at that time ?
Mr. Levitan. Believe me, I don't remember, in 1949. Do you have
anv information ?
Mr. Arens. Was it Phil Bart? He was p]astern Pennsylvania
Communist chairman.
Mr. Levitan. It may have been him.
Mr. Arens. How long did you know Phil Bart ?
Mr. Levitan. I knew Phil Bart as a client for, I think, a few years.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him in any other capacity ?
Mr. Levitan. I knew him as a client.
85.^33— 57— pt. 1 15
6358 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Did you know hiin in any other capacity?
Mv. Levitan. The answer to that I have already answered.
Mr. Arens. Tell the committee again.
Mr. Moulder. Counsel has referred to the Communist Party and it
is not clear in my mind. Is that the Communist Party of Philadelphia ?
Mr. Levitan. The Communist Party, the section of it or the part of
it that is in Philadelphia. They wanted to have a public meeting and
they had a contract.
The Chairman. We understand that.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee if you have known Phil Bart in any
capacity other than as a client?
Mr. Levitan. Phil Bart? I do not believe that I have.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in any closed party meetings with
him?
Mr. Levitan. Let me see now.
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. I refuse to answer that for the reason given before.
Mr. Arens. What reason is that ?
Mr. Levitan. Because of the privilege not to be a witness against
myself. That is under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are invoking the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Levitan. Yes.
The Chairman. I would like to ask you a question about these people
who retained you. Were any of them the people Avho were convicted
in Philadelphia under the Smith trial cases ?
Mr. Levitan. You know I didn't represent any of them in the Smith
Act prosecution.
The Chairman. I am asking you whether any of them were the
same?
Mr. Levitan. Let me see. Believe me, Mr. Walter, I don't know.
I wish that I did.
The Chairman. Actually, those people were convicted on the testi-
mony of Mr. Thomas, were they not?
Mr. FoRER, That is not fair.
Mr. Chairman. Just keep quiet. One of these days you are going
to have an opportunity to testify.
Mr. FoRER. I don't think you should threaten me while I am here
as counsel.
Mr. Levitan. ^Irj I discuss why I am opposed to the Walter-
McCarran Act ?
The Chairman. I think I know your reason.
Mr. Levitan. Why don't you let me tell you ?
Mr. Arens. First, tell us if you have been a Communist, and then
we will get into what you and others of your type happen to think
about tlie act.
Mr. Levitan. I happen to feel that a citizen of the United States
has a right to oppose the Walter-McCarran Act even if he happens
to be a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Of course he does, and the Congress has a right to
expose Avhat the Communists are doing to undertake to destroy anti-
Communist legislation, and you know it. Now, I invite your atten-
tion to a photostatic copy of the Communist Daily Worker of August 3.
1950 (p. 3). I lay this before you now. It indicates that you rep-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6359
r^ented the Civil Rights Congi-ess in a certain proceedings. That
is described by the Comnnmist press as "A police frameup."
(Docnment'marked ''Exhibit No. 201," see appendix, p. 7452.)
Mr. Levitak. 650 people came before President Eisenhower's Com-
mission on Immigration and Naturalization and most of them were
opposed to this act.
The Chairman. You mean Truman's Commission. You don't
mean Eisenhower's Commission.
Mr. LE\aTAX. The President's Connnission on Innnigration and
Naturalization.
The Chairman. Let me tell you who they were. Ninety percent
of tliem were under orders of dejjortation.
Mr. Levitak. It can't be. I liave their names here.
The Chairman. Never mind. Vfe don't want to hear from you.
"We will hear from you at the proper time.
Mr. Arens. Might I invite your attention now to this exhibit that I
liave been describing in the course of j'^our last diatribe. It is the
Communist Daily "Worker of August 1050, with reference to Mr. Harry
Levitan representing the Civil Rights Congress in a proceeding of
what is described in the Communist press here as "A police frameup.''
Do you have a recollection of representing them?
Ml'. Levitan. A police frameup ?
Mr. Arens. It refers to the Civil Rights Congress proceeding in
1950.
Mr. Levitan. Mr. Arens, if j^^our right to speak and say what you
wanted to was abridged, I would represent you, too, even though I
disaoree with 3'ou.
]Nlr. Arens. Kindly answer the question of whether or not you
represented the Civil Rights Congress in that proceeding.
Mr. Levitan. In 1950 i You mean this is a case Avhere two people
were arrested and held under $20,000 bail and they went to a court
and I got a Avrit of liabeas corpus and they were free? It was held
that their arrest was illegal.
Mr. iVbens. Please tell us who in the Civil Rights Congress en-
gaged you for that activity ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir. thank you.
Mr. Leattan. First of all, I don't recall wliether the Civil Rights
Congress engaged me, and if so, I don't recall who it was. My rec-
ollection, sir, is that these two people engaged me personally, and
that is my recollection.
Mr. Arens. "Well, the Communist press said you were engaged by
a re])resentative of the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Le\t[tan. I represent people who are charged with the com-
mission of crime, and I do not ask them Avhethei- they are Commu-
nists or Fascists or Republicans or Democrats.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. "Witness, I invite your attention to a con-
ference under the auspices of the Emergency Civil Libei'ties Com-
mittee which was held in Philadelphia, on June 11, 1955.
Mr. Leattan. Emergency Civil Libeities Committee?
Mr. Arens. Yes, and the title to this, according to the brochure here
is, 'Tlebirth of Freedom Conference." That is a verv laudable oh-
6360 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
jective, the "Rebirth of Freedom." Amonji: those who are to par-
ticipate and address the conference is our old friend Prof. Leonard
Boudin, Dr. Otto Natlian, and I see your name here, Harry Levitan.
Do you have a recollection of participating in a conference of the
Emergency Civil Liberties Committee in Philadelphia in 1955 ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 202," see appendix, p. 7453.)
Mr. Levitan. I don't, but please let me refresh my recollection and
I will tell you if I did.
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mr. Le\^tan. Oh, yes, I spoke on denaturalization and deportation.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall who invited you to speak ?
Mr. Levitan. I think this committee.
Mr. Arens. Who on the committee ?
Mr. Levitan. I believe I don't know. I got a letter.
Mr. Arens. From whom, do you recall ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't know, from the committee and they said that
they are discussing the denaturalization and deportation features of
the act, and would T as an attorney come and discuss them, and I
came there and I discussed them as I saw them and as the President's
Commission on Immigration and Naturalization saw it, and as every
important Law Review article in the United States which I have read
sees it.
Mr. Arens. And were you a member of the Communist Party when
you made this address ?
Mr. Le\^tan. I was not.
Mr. Arens. That was in June of 1955, now remember.
Mr. Levitan. I was not.
Mr. Arens. '\'^nio was it who spoke on informers as a means of
suppression. Do you recall ?
Mr. Levitan. I do not recall and will you permit me to refresh my
recollection? This was a public meeting, and very well attended.
Mr. Arens. Was I. F. Stone a participant ? Who gave the address
on informers as a means of suppression ?
Mr. Leattan. Well, it says here that Mr. Frank Donner, who I un-
derstand is a member of the New York bar, but please believe me I
don't recall.
Mr. Arens. He has been identified as a Communist has he not, by
live witnesses before a congressional committee under oath ?
Mr. Levitan. What did Mr. Donner say about it ?
Mr. Arens. I'm just asking you. He took the fifth amendment, of
course.
Mr. Levitan. Well, the fact that someone identifies a lawyer as a
member of the Communist Party, in my opinion in view of my per-
sonal experience, does not prove that lawyer to be a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. SciiERER. l>ut when the lawyer like you had an opportunity
today to deny it and doesn't deny it, it is conclusive in my mind that
the person is telling the truth.
Mr. Arkns. Who was moderator of this particular session for the
Rebirth of Freedom?
Mr. Levttan. It says here Mr. I. F. Stone.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Mr. I. F. Stone ?
Mr. Levitan. I cannot say that he is a friend of mine, but I do
know that he writes a paper which I read.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6361
Mr. Arens. And he was at one time writer for the Communist Daily
Worker, was he not ?
Mr. Levitan. I have no knowledge of that. I know he was a writer
for Compass, and for P.M., which I understand is an anti-, or was
an anti-Conmiunist newspaper.
Mr. Arens. Now, j'ou recall this morning we talked with Mr. Roten-
berg about this celebration held for you ?
Mr. Leattan. It was excellent, and there were a thousand people
there.
Mr. Arens. And under whose auspices was that celebration held?
Mr, Levitan. I think it was under the auspices of the Philadelphia
Committee to Defend the Foreign Born, and it was for me. They
invited anybody in Philadelphia who wanted to come, in order to,
I suppose you call it, "honor me" because of my long history of legal
work in the field of civil liberties, naturalization and deportation, and
civil rights. I have done this work for almost 20 years.
Mr. Arens. We understand. Were you identified
Mr. LEvrTAN. I think I have upheld the American democratic sys-
tem and the laws of this country to the best of my ability in so doing.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of an organization dedicated
to the overthrow of the Government of the United States by force and
violence?
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Levitan. Not to my knowledge. I could not be a member of
such an organization because I am opposed to any organization which
has as its purpose the overthrow of the Government by force and
violence.
Mr. Arens. Then are you opposed to the tenets and principles of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Levitan. What are the tenets and principles of the Communist
Party, sir?
Mr. Arens. According to the Supreme Court of the United States
and congressional committees, among other things, it is the advocacy
of the overthrow of the Government of the United States by force
and violence. Are you opposed to that ?
Mr. Levitan. I am flatly opposed to that.
Mr. Arens. Then are you opposed to the tenets of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Levitan. If that is the tenets of the Communist Party, I am
flatly and unalterably opposed to them.
Mr. Arens. Then have you been a member of an organization
Mr. Levitan. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a Communist ?
Mr. Le\ttan. I have refused to answer tiiat question because of my
privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born in Philadelphia ?
Mr.^ Levitan. As far as I know, that is not a membership
organization.
Mr. Arens. I beg j'our pardon ?
Mr. Levitan. As far as I know that is not a membership
organization.
Mr. Arens. Have you been active in the organization
Mr. Levitan. No.
6362 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. The Philadelphia Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Levitan. No. I have spoken for them. I spoke — for example,
they had a meeting just last week against certain aspects of the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. And you spoke then ?
Mr. LEvrrAN. I was a speaker, just last week.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline when
you made that speech ?
Mr. Levitan. I was not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any idea why Rotenberg, who was your
client here today, used the name of the Philadelphia Life Insurance
Co. in connection with the reservations for the facilities for this big
session honoring you ?
Mr. Levitan. I was amazed to hear that and I would be surprised if
that were actually the fact.
The Chairman. There is the letter.
Mr. Le\ttan. I don't understand that at all because the Philadelphia
Life Insurance Co. had nothing to do with that celebration.
The Chairman. Absolutely nothing, but the hotel wouldn't rent it to
that kind of croAvd, so he had to get the hall under subterfuge.
Mr. Levitan. May I talk to you about the Walter-McCarran Act,
sir?
The Chairman. No. I know what you will say about it.
Mr. Levitan. Why don't you let me say it ?
The Chairman, liecause I am not interested in what you will say,
because I know what it is.
Mr. Levitan. I have been in the field for 10 years. Why don't you
let me tell you my experience.
Mr. Arens. When you have been appearing for these clients of yours
in the last several years, have you at any time been under Communist
discipline?
Mr. Levitan. What is that again?
Mr. Arens. During all this service you have been commending your-
self for
Mr. Levitan. I have not been commending myself. I have been
telling you what I have been doing. I have refused to answer that
for the reasons I liave given.
Mr. Arens. What happened to the funds that were raised in this
testimonial to honor you in Philadelphia awhile back ?
Mr. Levitan. I don't know. I know that I was given a gift.
Mr. Arens. By the organization ?
Mr. Levitan. I think so, but I don't know what happened to the
funds.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Levitan. Thank you.
The CiiATK^iAN. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Pairis, please ; Nina Parris.
(Off the record.)
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Parris. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6363
TESTIMONY OF MRS. NINA PARRIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
RAYMOND J. BRADLEY
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Parris. Mrs. Nina Parris. 4130 Parkside Avenue, Philadel-
phia.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing: here today, Mrs. Parris, pursuant
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities?
Mrs. Parris. I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Parris. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Bradley. Raymond J. Bradley, 2105 Land Title Building,
Philadelphia, Pa.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Parris, where were you born?
Mrs. Parris. Berlin, Germany.
Mr. Arens. 'WHien did you come to the United States ?
Mrs. Parris. In April of 1937.
Mr. Arens. Were you admitted then for lawful residence?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I was admitted under a quota number.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I have derivative citizenship.
Mr. Arens. Your father or mother was a citizen ?
^Irs. Parris. That is correct.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We understand about derivative citizenship. You are
a derivative citizen?
Mrs. Parris. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. What is your address, Mrs. Parris?
Mrs. Parris. 4130 Parkside Avenue,'Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. Mrs Parris, are you a Communist?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Bradley. I advise you, Mrs. Parris, that you may, if you choose,
claim your privilege under the fifth amendment
The Chairman. When you advise your client, just advise her pri-
vately.
Mrs. Parrts. On the advice of counsel. I decline to answer that
question on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Tmder date of October 1952 a witness by the name of
Thomas Delaney, D-e-l-a-n-e-y, appeared before this committee and
took an oath and stated that he, while a member of the, Communist
Party, knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Thomas Delaney lying
or was he telling the truth?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the fifth amendment and the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Thomas
Delaney?
Mrs. Parris. The same answer and the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever in the Communist Party underground?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
6364 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Parris, according to the Communist Party Daily
Worker of February 1953 (February 25, 1953, p. 4) there is a letter
here indicating that a number of people assembled for a session for the
repeal of the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act in the Hotel Syl-
vania. Please look at that letter. It is a letter addressed to the Daily
Worker from one Harriet Barron. And tell us whether or not you
were in attendance at that meeting.
Mr. Bradley. Do you know what year this was ?
Mr. Arens. 1953.
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You were the official conference reporter for that con-
ference, were you not, the conference which was held at the Hotel
Sylvania in February 1953 for the purpose of developing sentiment
and creating organizations for the destruction of the Walter-McCarran
Act, isn't that correct ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask, Mr. Chairman — Are you a reporter?
Mrs. Parris. A reporter ?
Mr. Bradley. You mean a stenograph reporter, sir ?
Mr. Moulder. I understand counsel referred to you as a reporter.
Is that your professional occupation ?
Mr. Bradley. If the question is, is she a stenographic reporter, she
can answer that.
Mrs. Parris. No, sir ; I am not.
Mr. Arens. Were you the official conference reporter of this con-
ference held in the Hotel Sylvania on February 8, 1953 ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I use the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. AitENS. Have you been identified with the Philadelphia Com-
mittee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act and To Defend Its
Victims ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. What has been your activity legislationwise from the
standpoint of undertaking to affect the course of any legislation
through various organizations?
Mrs. Parris. I don't choose to discuss my political opinions.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harry Levitan, the gentleman who just
left the witness stand ?
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, young lady, that if you told this
committee whether or not you know Harry Levitan, who just left this
witness stand, you would be supplying the information which might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Parris. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in the Communist Party with Harry
Levitan ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6365
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Harry Levitan was at this conference, was he not, in
February 1953, at which you were the official conference reporter?
(The witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Civil Rights
Congress ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Are j^ou acquainted with Jack Zucker?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. And the Labor Youth League ? Are you a member of
the Labor Youth League or have you been a, member of the Labor
Youth League?
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Herman Thomas?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Where were you educated?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I was educated at the Dalton Schools in New York. I
went to the Art Students League in New York City, the Yale Uni-
versity Drama School.
Mr." Arens. When did you complete your education?
Mrs. Parris. I believe it was
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I am now taking some courses at the University of
Pennsylvania.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete this work at Yale?
Mrs. Parris. That was in 1946, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been gainfully employed?
Mrs. Parris. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Arens. Where did you work, just some of the principal em-
ployments, if you please.
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in any gainful employment
concerning which you could tell the committee without disclosing in-
formation that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness conferred witii her counsel.)
Mrs. Parris. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. Call your next witness,
(Off the record.)
Mr. Arens. Ruth Hillsgrove, please.
The Chairman. Raise your right hand, please. Do you swear the
testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROvT.. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Arens.
()366 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF MRS. RUTH E. HILLSGROVE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, A. HARRY LEVITAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and
occupation.
jNIrs. HiLLSGR(j^-E. I am Ruth E. Hillsgrove. I live at 408 School
Street, Watertown, Mass., and 1 vrork in an office.
The Chairman. Watertov;n 't
Mrs. HiLi.SGRovE. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ^
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. HiLLSGRovE. Yes.
Mr. Arens, Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself for the
record?
Mr. LE^^TAN. I am A. Harry Levitan, a member of the Philadelphia
bar, with offices at 1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia, Pa.
Mr. Arens. A^^iat is your occupation, ma'am?
JNIrs. Hillsgroa'e. I work in an office.
Mr. Arens. AYhat office do you work in ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I decline to answer. I invoke the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee the
office in which you work you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Arens. ^Vliere is the office located ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I invoke the privilege.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mrs. Hillsgroat:. I invoke the fifth amendment, the privilege to
decline.
Mr. Arens. Where were you Avhen you were served with your
subpena ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I Avas at home.
Mr. Arens. What time of day was it you were served?
Mi-s. Hiijlsgroat:. 7 : 30 in the morning, or thereabouts.
jNIr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present em-
ployment concerning which you can't tell this committee without giv-
ing information that could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
INIrs. Hillsgroat:. Some time.
Mr. Arens. As much as a j'ear ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Yes.
Mr. Arens. As much as 2 years?
IMrs. HiLLSGROVE. I decline.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferi-ed with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. At the present time, I probably have been em-
plo3'ed about — I am not sui-e, less than (5 months.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SI■^^'ERSIOX 6367
Mr, Arens. What "u-as your employment immediately prior to this
present employment ?
Mrs. IIiixsGROVE. Northeastern Distributors, Cambridge, Mass.
Mr. Arens. How long were you emplo5"ed there ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. About a year I think.
Mr. Moulder. What type of work do you do ?
Mrs. HILLSGR0^'E. Office work, general office work.
JNIr. Arens. Are you now, or have you been, connected with the New
England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. HILLSGRO^^',. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of James W. Glatis ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel).
JMrs. Hillsgroat:. I do not think so.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of James Glatis?
Mrs. HiLLSGROMi:. No ; I do not think I know him at all.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Herbert Philbrick ?
Mrs. HiLLsGR0\TE. Privilege. I don't know him.
Mr. Arens. Then why did you say "privilege"?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I really — p-ardon me.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hn.LSGROvE. As far as Philbrick is concerned, to the best of
my knowledge, I do not know him.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Nathaniel Mills?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Dave Rosenberg ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. The fact is, ma'am, that Dave Rosenberg, secretary of
the Communist Party, and Nathaniel Mills and you organized the
New England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; isn't that
true ? If it isn't, deny it while you are under oath.
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document which is a re-
production of the Tvamp, the official publication of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born for June-July 1950. I
invite your attention to an article here with reference to the New
England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look
at tliis article and tell us whether or not j^ou are, or liave been, iden-
tified with the New England Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
(See exhibit No. 15, appendix, p. 7112.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROATi. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. I understand the witness, in response to your ques-
tion, took the fifth amendment and declined to answer, claiming the
privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of
an application for a post office box dated March 2»3, 1953. The
post office box for the New England Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. This application for this post office box is signed by
Ruth E. Hillsgrove. Please look at it and tell us whether or not that
is your signature.
"(Document marked "Exhibit No. 20.3," see appendix, p. 7454.)
6368 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. HnxsGROvE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens, Do you honestly feel that if, while you are under oath
here, you told this committee whether or not that is your signature,
in applying for the post oflice box for the New England Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, you would be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. It might have such a tendency.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly sign your name to this pay voucher,
"which is the document pursuant to which you will receive your witness
fee and travel allowance?
JNIrs. HiLLSGROVE. May I quote?
Mr. Levitan. Yes, you may quote.
Mrs. HiLLSGR0\T5. ITncler article 15
The Chairman. We will withdraw the request and let the record
show that after the voucher has been signed it will be incorporated as
a part of the record.
Mr. Arens. The chairman has stated that after you do sign it after
these immediate proceedings, your signature will be incorporated in
the record and we will be able to compare the signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 204," see appendix, p. 7455.)
]\Ia'am, you were succeeded as an official of the New England Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born b}^ Olive Sutton ; were you not?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Olive Sutton ?
Mrs, HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic copy of the records
of the Post Office Department of September 23, 1954, in which there
is a notation that the Post Office has been advised that Olive Sutton
was to take over the custody of the post office box for the New England
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Look at that and see if
it refreshes your recollection as to any arrangements you may have
had with Olive Sutton.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 205," see appendix, p. 7456.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document, which is a reproduction of
a page of the Lamp — page 3, October-November issue, 1951 — of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, the article
here entitled "Boston To Expand Its Committee Work."
Shortly after Thanksgiving a special meeting will be held in Boston to plan
activity around local cases. Delegates will be elected to attend the 20th anni-
versary convention.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you were
a participant in that work of the committee and the convention.
(See exhibit No. 20, appendix, p. 7119.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. May I ask who types these dates in here at tlie top
of the page ?
Mr. Arens. A member of the staff.
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Why isn't the date on this copy ?
Mr. Arens. It is only on the cover, ma'am.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6369
The Chairman. Date or no date, fifth amendment. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to a document: Stanleys
Nowak speaks on the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act^ — former
State senator, leader of the Polish-American people — all held in Bos-
ton under the auspices of the New England Committee for Protection
of Foreigii Born.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you were
a participant in arranging this affair where Stanley Nowak made
his address.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 206," see appendix, p. 7457.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth.
Mr. Arens. What is the address of your home ?
Mrs. Hillsgrove. I just gave it, 408 School Street.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hillsgrg^t:. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, 1 respectfully suggest the witness be
oiclered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. LE\TrAN. May I see that form, please ?
Mr. Arens. I respectf ull}^ suggested that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer whether or not she ever lived at 130 Myrtle Street.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. Did you
ever live at 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hillsgrove. May I see that first myself ?
Mr. Arens. Can't you just tell this committee whether or not you
ever lived at 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hillsgroat:. I didn't see it.
The Chairman. Did you ever live at 130 Myrtle Street ?
(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)
Mrs. Hillsgrove. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you live in apartment No. 7 at 130 Myrtle Street?
Mrs. HiLLSGROMi. I Can't recall. It may have been 7.
Mr. Arens. Do you think it might be a coincidence only that this
meeting addressed by Stanley Nowak under the auspices of the New
England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, according to this
document, was held at 130 Myrtle Street?
Mrs. HiLLSGR0\'E. May I see that, sir ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hillsgrove. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you any comments or observations as to the
coincidence that the New England Committee for Pi-otection of For-
eign Born would have a session for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran
Act, with Stanlev Nowak addressing it, at the same address where
you lived, 130 Myrtle Street ?
Mrs. Hii.lsgroat.. May I just look at that again, please ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. Just please tell us if there seems to be
only a coincidence or if there is something tliat might be of some
significance.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]\rr. LEvriAx. Can you please repeat tlie (juestion ?
(Question read.)
Mi-s. Hillsgro\te. The facts are in the statement right here. May
I read this?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
6370 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. nn.LscuiovE. "Entertainment, Friday evening, March 13, 8
p. m.*" It doesn't give tiie year. "'Dome Room, Hotel Touraine,
corner Boylston and Tremont Streets, Boston. Admission free.
Auspices NeAv England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,"
and tlie mailing address 130 Mja-tle Street.
Mr. Arens. Let us just get to the specifics. Is there just a coinci-
dence that this leaflet has the Xew England Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born identified as being at 130 Myrtle Street?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Akeks. And that was your home ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Where were you employed in 1953 ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. We have been talking about the New England Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. I would like to invite your
attention to the Massachusetts Committee for the Revision of the
McCarran-Walter Immigration and Naturalization Act. Have you
ever been identified with that organization ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is there any interlocking relationship between the New
England committee-
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why don't you wait until I finish the question?
Any interlocking relationsliip between the New England Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born with which these exhibits identify
you and the Massachusetts Committee for the Revision of the Mc-
Carran-Walter Immigration and Naturalization Act ?
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Tjook at the letterhead of this organization and tell us
liow many of the people on the Massachusetts Committee for the
Revision of the McCarran-Walter Immigration and Naturalization
Act are personally known to yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 207,'' see appendix, p. 7458.)
Mrs. PIillsgrove. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In December of 1953 there was a conference, according
to this record which we have already made in the last 2 or 3 days, held
in Chicago, 111., a National Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran
Law and Defend Its Victims. Among the people participating in that
conference representing Massachusetts was a woman by the name of
Frances Hood. Do vou know Frances Hood i
(See exhibit V, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
Mrs. HiLLSGROVE. I am confused. What did you say ?
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady from Massachusetts by tlie name
of Frances Hood ?
Mrs. Hillsgro\t;. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I re.spectfully suggest tliat will conclude
tlie staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess for .5 nfinutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairman. Tlie committee will be in order.
Call vour next witness.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6371
Mr. Arens. Mike Gates, please come forward.
( No response. )
Mr. Arens. Counsel, is Mr. Gates here ?
Mr. Levitax. He is, sir. May I speak with Mr. Walter on the side
about this matter?
(Off the record.)
Mr. Arens. Frances Gabow, please come forward.
Please remain standino; while the chairman administers an oath.
The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
^Irs. Gabow. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANCES GABOW, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
A. HARRY LEVITAN
Mr. AnENs. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Gabow. My name is Frances Gabow, and I live at 2119 North
Natrona Street in Philadelphia.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mrs. Gab()w\ Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Gabow\ Yes.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, Counsel.
Mr. Levitan. A, Harry Levitan, 1412 Fox Building, Philadelphia 3.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever had your name changed from some other
name to Gabow?
Mrs. Gap.ow. Yes. We Lad it changed by court order.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat was your name prior to the time it was changed?
Mrs. Gabow. Jaffe, J-a-f-f-e.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. I would like to invoke the first and the fifth amend-
ments, and I would like to quote my reasons why from the Story of
the Constitution, published by the United States Constitution Sesqui-
centennial. House Office Building, Washington, D. C, copyriglUed
July 28, 1937.
The first amendment relating to religion, free speech, right of assembly, and
petition, debars Congress from establishing a religion or prohibiting free exer-
cise of religion or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right
of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government for redress
of grievances.
And on the fifth amendment I quote :
The fifth amendment protects the citizens against double jeopardy, self-
incrimination, deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process of
law
The Chairman. What did you say, self what ?
Mrs. Gabow. This says; I am (juotiiig:
Self-incrimination, deprivation
The Chairman. What aftei- "self-incrimination"?
Mrs. Gabow. Pardon?
6372 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The Chairman. After "self-incrimination," what does it say ?
Mre. Gabow (reading) :
Deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, aud loss
of property taken for public use.
Mr. Arens. Yon are not reading the Constitution. You are read-
ing someone's interpretation; is that correct?
Mrs. Gabow. I am reading from the Story of the Constitution,
issued by the United States Constitutional Sesquicentennial Conmiis-
sion, published by Sol Bloom at the House Office Building, AVashing-
ton, D. C, and copyrighted in 1937, July 28.
Mv. Arkns. Do you know a person by the name of Herman Thomas?
Mrs. Gabow. Privilege.
Mr. Arens. "\\niat do you mean, privilege?
Mrs. Gabow. Under the first and fifth amendments.
The Chairman. Do you mean by that that you refuse to answer the
question ?
Mrs. Gabow. Yes.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, would you kindly resume the witness
stand for just a minute ?
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN THOMAS— Resumed
Mr. Arens. You were sworn earlier today, Avere you not, Mr.
Thomas ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, durhig the course of your membership in
the Communist Part}^, as an undercover agent for j'our Government,
serving the Federal Bureau of Investigation, did j'ou have occasion
to know a person by the name of Frances Gabow, G-a-b-o-w?
JNIr. Thomas. I knew a person by the name of Frances while I was
a member of the Communist Party working for the United States
Government.
Mr. Arens. Did you know that person as a Communist?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir; I did.
^Ir. Arens. Do you see that person, whom you knew as Frances, in
the hearing room today ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir. She is seated to my right.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Just remain seated for just a moment, please, Mr. Thomas, until we
give JNIrs. Gabow an opportunity to look you in the face and be con-
fronted Avith you and deny if she cares to do so.
Mrs. Gabow, you just heard the testimony of Mr. Thomas, as given
uudei" oath, when he identified you as a person known by him to have
been a (^/ommunist. Was he lying or telling the truth?
Mrs. Gabow. My privilege under the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Thomas, how did you know, under what circum-
stances did you know, this lady seated to your right as a Communist?
Mr. TiroMAS. I had attended seA^ernl closed meetings of the Com-
munist Party with Frances, but one of the latest occasions I had was
after the party went underground in September of 1950 when I met
her and another member of the Conununist Party at an affair at Nature
Friends Camp near ^'alley, Pa., where I made arrangements with
I
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6373
the otlier person to pick up Communist Party literature in Phila-
delphia, inasmuch as they weren't using the mails.
I made arrangements to meet Frances on Market Street, near
Fourth and Market, at the Horn & Hardart Restaurant. I was there
on time and met her. and she didn't have the literature. She said she
was afraid that she was being followed. I then took her in my car
back to, 1 think it is Spruce and Broad, where she went up to the
Communist Party headquarters, 250 South Broad, and brought down
the Communist JParty literature for me to take back to the Lehigh
Valley section of the Communist Party.
Mr! Arens. Was this lady, seated next to you, a member of the
Communist Party underground in 1950 ^
Mr. Thomas. I don't know if she was a member of the Communist
Party underground, but she was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Gabow, do you care to deny this testimony
while you are under oath ?
Mrs. Gabow. I wish to invoke tlie fifth.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANCES GABOW— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Gabow, I lay before you a couple of photo-
graphs. We have used these photographs in this proceeding before,
and they have been identified previously — one is exhibit No. 162 and
the other is exhibit No. 164. (See appendix, pp. 7389, 7391.) I be-
lieve you will find your picture in them. These are photographs of a
picketing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities when
it was in Philadelphia in 1952. Kindly look at these photographs
and see if you can point out your picture to the committee in this
picketing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Mrs. Gabow. I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Gabow, in 1953 did you ever have occasion
during that year to be in the State of Illinois, the city of Chicago?
Mrs. Gabow\ Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectifully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer tliat question.
The CnAiR:\rAN. You are directed to answer the question whether
or not you liave been in the State of Illinois.
Mr. Levitan. In what year ?
Mr. Arens. In 1953, in Chicago.
Mr. Levitan. Did you mention the month?
Mr. Arens. No ; I didn't.
(The witness conferred with liei- counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is the record clear that she has been ordered and di-
rected to answer that?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Gabow, I have a document in my hand, which
has been identified in this record, of the National Conference to Re-
peal of tlie Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims, in Chicago,,
ill., December 12 and 13, 1953. This is a summary of the proceedings.
The nominating committee chairman, according to this document,
is Mrs. Frances Gabow, of Philadelphia. Look at this document and
tell us whether or not that is a true and accurate description of you
85333— 57— pt. 1 16
6374 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
find your station in that conference. It is about tlie second paragraph
there, ma'tiin.
See exhibit Y, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, ISla'am, I lay before you a mimeographed press
release of a Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and to
Protect the Foreign Born, in Philadelphia. Kindly tell this com-
mittee what you had to do with the preparation of that press release or
with that organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 208," see appendix, p. 7459.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Here is an exhibit I would like to have your special
attention to, if you please. It is a resolution memorializing the
United States Congress with respect to the modification of the
provisions of the National Immigration Act. According to the face
of this document, it was passed by the city council of Philadelphia,
but at the bottom of the document we see it is reprinted as a public
service by the Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and
Protect the Foreign Born, 1001 Chestnut Street, Philadelphia 7, Pa.
Tell us whether or not you have ever seen that document before.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did the Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran
Law and Protect the Foreign Born make representations to the city
council of Philadelphia and undertake to persuade the city council
of Philadelphia to pass this resolution condemning the Walter-Mc-
Carran Immigration Act ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you, or have you ever been, connected with the
Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Act ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In 1948, you were membership director of the student
section of the Communist Party, were you not ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, in January of 1949 you were organ-
izer of section 7, district 3, Communist Party, were you not?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to April Farms in Pennsylvania,
in Bucks County?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is there a place called April Farms ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, you chartered two buses from the
Mertz- White Lines to carry Communist Party members to a big rally
held in 1949 at the AprilFarms, isn't that true?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In September of 1949 you were in attendance at a dis-
trict meeting of the Communist Party, district 3 at Reynolds Hall. in
Philadelphia; were you not?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Dave Davis ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
COMMrNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6375
]Mr. Arexs. Dave Davis in this meeting introduced you, did he
not, and he said, and I quote :
Most of you, I believe and I hope, heard the appeal of Comrade Foster to the
American people for the need for support of the fight for freedom of the 12. Our
party has prepared an answer to this letter and at this time I would like to call
on Frances Gabow, secretary of the Fourth Congressional District of our party,
to read the answer to Comrade Foster.
Ts that a truthful presentation of what happened?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Mrs. Gabow. In Phihidelphia.
Mr. Arens. When^
Mrs. Gabow. In 1920.
Mr. Arens. Where were you educated ?
Mrs. Gabow. I w^ent to primary schools in Pliiladelphia, New York,
and New Jersey, and through high school in New York.
Mr. Arens. And when did you complete your high-school educa
tion i
Mrs. Gabow. I did not complete. I left school to go to work.
Mr. Arens, When did you leave school to go to work, to your best
recollection, the approximate time?
Mrs. Gabow. Probably about 193t) or 1937.
Mr. Arens. What was your first job after you left school to go to
work?
Mrs. Gabow. Clerical woi'k in an office.
Mr. Arens. AYhat office ?
Mrs. Gabow'. I honestly don't remember.
Mr. Arens. What was your next i^rincipal employment?
(The witness conferred wdth her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabov/. I worked on a number of jobs for short periods of
lime. Jobs were a little difficult to get at that time. I took waitress
work, as well as part-time office work, in a number of places. So I
didn't keep any one job for any lengthy period of time.
Mr. Arens. I^t's try it another way. What has been your last prin-
cipal employment ?
Mrs. Gabow. Here again I have been working part-time and have
not
Mr. Arens. Where ?
(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow\ Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. When were you last em])loyed ?
(The witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Mr. Levitan. Do you mean when did slie last get a job ?
Mr. Arens. When was slie lastem])loyed, yes, sir.
Mr. Levitan. Where did she last get a job ?
Mr. Arens. When was she last employed ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. When. Slie understands, if you don't. When were you
last employed?
Mrs. Gabow. The time, you mean ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, when.
Mrs. Gabow. A month ago.
Mr. Arexs. And where?
6376 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How long were you employed in this place concerning
which you can't tell us without giving information which could be
used in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to this
last employment concerning which you can't tell us ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Gabow. I didn't work for a period of time, a long period of
time. I was ill before that.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked in Communist Party head-
quarters in Philadelphia ?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
Mrs. Gabow. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
The committee will adjourn subject to call of the chairman.
(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., Wednesday, XoA^ember 14, 1056, the com-
mittee Avas recessed subject to call.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
United States House of Representattv^es,
Subcommittee of the
Committee ox Ux-A:merican Activities.
Youngstown, Ohio.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the United States District Court
Building, Youngstown, Ohio, Hon. Edwin E. WiUis (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Eepresentatives Edwin E. Willis, of
Louisiana, and Harold H. Velde, of Illinois.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; George C. AVil-
liams and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and Richard S, Weil, staff
member.
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will call the first witness of the day.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Elsie Zazrivy. Please come forward, Mrs. Zazrivy,
and remain standing while the chairman administers the oath to you.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Zazrrtt. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ELSIE ZAZRIVY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Zazrivy. My name is Mrs. Elsie Zazrivy.
Mr. Velde. What was the name, again?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Elsie Zazrivy. I live at 4132 Brookside Boulevard,
Cleveland, Ohio. I am an office worker.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Arens. And in what office do you work ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I work at Manning, Maxwell & Moore.
Mr. Arens. And where is that located i
Mrs. Zazrivy. In Cleveland, Ohio.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
6377
G378 COMMtTNlST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Zazrivy. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. My name is Hymen Schlesinger, of Pittsburgh,
Pa. I am a member of the Allegheny County Bar Association and
a member of the various courts, both State and Federal.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Zazrivy
Mr. Schlesinger. May I ask, Mr. Chairman and counsel, I do not
know the procedure. Am I to sit beside the witness?
Mr. Arens. You may sit beside the witness, and, as you probably
know, the sole and exclusive prerogative of yourself as counsel is to
advise the witness as to her constitutional rights.
Mi*s. Zazrivy, the subpena which was served upon you calls for you
to produce certain books and other records, documents, of the Ohio
Conunittee for Protection of Foreign Born ; does it not ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Yes, it does.
Mr. Arens. Are you the custodian of those records, books, and
documents, alluded to in the subpena?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrr'y. It may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. What do you mean?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy, Under the Constitution, I am not required to tes-
tify against myself.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee,
while you were under oath, truthfully whether or not you are the
custodian of the records of the Ohio Conmiittee for Protection of
Foreign Born, you would be supplying information that could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the last question.
Mr. Willis. You are ordered to answer that question.
The question is a test of whether or not you are honestly invoking
the provision of the Constitution to which you refer.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Willis. You are ordered to answer it.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I am invoking the fifth amendment honestly be-
cause I believe that it might incriminate me, and the Constitution
says that I may invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Zazriy\', my associate here this morning, Mr.
Appell,, is laying before you a document which is a reproduction
01 the April-May 1952 issue (p. 3) of The Lamp, the official publication
of the American Coimnittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Willis. What is the name of the issue?
Mr. Arens. The Lamp.
Mr. Willis. L-a-m-p?
COMiMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6379
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
In that page which is reproduced, and which is now before you,
there is an article which we have marked there with respect to the
establishment of an Ohio Provisional Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, and this document shows yourself, Elsie Zazrivy, as
acting secretary.
Kindly look at that document and tell this committee, while you are
under oath, Avhether that is a true and correct representation of your
status in connection with the Ohio Provisional Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. (See exhibit No. 17, appendix, p. 7116.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
]\Irs. Zazrivy. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Appell is going to lay before you a photostatic
copy of the Cleveland Plain Dealer of Monday, February 3, 1941,
page 10, concerning the organization meeting of the Ohio Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Please look at that article and tell us whether or not you possess any
knowledge of this meeting.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 209," see appendix, pp. 7460, 7461.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Now, Mr. Appell is going to lay before you still another
document, Avhich is a reproduction of the Cleveland Plain Dealer of
January 17, 1941 (pp. 1 and 4) and I invite your attention to a story
M-hich is headed "Busch Cites Communist Tinge as Civic Leaders
Ditch 'Foreign-Born Aid'."
In that article, the first paragraph, you read that one Dr. Henry
Miller Busch, professor of Cleveland College, withdrew his support
from the then existing Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born as it Avas formed in 1941 and branded one of the statements of
the committee as being typical of the Daily Worker and organizations
and individuals afliliated with the Communist cause.
Was this description by Dr. Busch true and accurate of the Ohio
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 210," see appendix, pp. 7461,
7462.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. In 1949 you were financial secretary or financial direc-
tor of the Cuyahoga County section of the Communist Party; were
you not ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Appell is now going to lay before you a document
which is a reproduction of the February-March 1950 issue of The
Lamp (p. 2), the official publication of the [American] Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. 1 would like to ask you if you were
active in the creation of a city wide council for protection of foreign
born in Cleveland as announced in the issue of The Lamp which is
now before 3'ou ?
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, p. 7102.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
6380 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. WiLi IS. While on tliat subject, Counsel, it is a fact, is not not,
that the [American] Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born
WHS one of rhe oldest communistic outfits in the United States?
Mr. Arens. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Willis. And they usually operate under fancy names that
might appeal to the gullible and the innocent, and that is why they
use that fancy name, the Protection of Foreign Born; is that correct?
Mr. Arens. That is correct ; yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I think it might be a good idea to put
the citation of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born into the record. (See p. 6628 of testhnony.)
Mr. Willis. Do you mean the citation of that committee by the
Department of Justice?
Mr. Arens. And by other Government agencies ; yes, sir.
I miglit also at this point say that the i)rocedure which I am pres-
ently following is to establish, by these documents, the relationship
of this Av itness to the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Siie is under a subpena duces tecum demanding her to produce the
records of that organization. She has invoked the fifth amendment
with reference to any affiliation or connection with that organization,
and if, by the incorporation in our record, we sliow her identity as the
officer in charge of the records of the Ohio Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, she is then under a mandate of the law to produce
the records.
There are an abundance of judicial decisions on that.
The very next document, I believe, will help clarify the status of
the record in that respect.
Mi's. Zazrivy, Mr. Appell will show you a document, a photostatic
reproduction of a mimeographed letter of the Ohio Coimiiittee for
Protection of Foreign Bom, and on this letter there is a signature of
Elsie Zazrivy as secretary of the Ohio Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
1 want you to look at this document and, while you are under oath,
to verify the authenticity of that signature.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 211," see appendix, p. 7463.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will lay before you a pay voucher, which is
necessary for you to sign in order to procure your witness fee here. He
will point to the place where you are to sign. I ask you to affix your
signature to that pay voucher now.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I decline to sign any document that may be used
against me.
ISIr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness shall affix her signature to a pay voucher claiming
witness fees, that part of the voucher bearing her signature be incor-
porated in this record.
Mr. Willis. That is so ordered.
(Witness waived reimbursement of expenses by refusing to sign
voucher. )
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6381
Mr. Arexs. Now, Mr. Chairman, tliis record reflects at the present
time that a person by the name of Elsie Zazriyy is secretary, or was
secretary at the latest date on which we can find documents, of the
Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
We have asked this witness whether or not she is secretary and
custodian of certain records, and she has invoked the protection of
the fiftli amendment. As secretary of the Ohio Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreion l^orn, and as custodian of the records, she is under
a mandate of this committee to produce certain records.
I respectfully suggest, therefore, that this record now reflect an
order, in view"^ of the record that we have thus far established,
against Mrs. Zazrivy that she forthwith produce the records called for
in the subpena duces tecum — records, documents, and books of the
Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. AYiLLis. You are ordered to comply with the demand made by
counsel of this committee pursuant to the subpena duces tecum that
Avas served upon you, as you have acknowledged it was served upon
you.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrtv^y. Without admitting or denying that I have ever been
connected Avith the Ohio Coimnittee for Protection of Foreign Born,
I am now producing these papers in response to the order.
Mr. Arexs. Do you have your subpena with you ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. No, I don't.
Mr. Arexs. The subpena duces tecum which was served upon you,
Mrs. Zazrivy, requires the production of all correspondence between
the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, does it not?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Arens. That is a matter of the record of the committee. Have
you produced now all of the correspondence in your custody and con-
trol between the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Willis. I think the witness should be warned that she is under
oath. We want to be perfectly fair, but at the same time verj'^ firm.
Counsel must realize the significance of this question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I am not now the secretary of the Ohio Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. There is no such committee to my
knowledge, and this is all the material that I could find, and this is
what I understood the subpena to mean.
Mr. Arens. "^^^lere did you find this material?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully sugo^est the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question. She has opened the
door of this inquiry by saying this is all she could find. The natural
sequence of events and questions would be where did she find it.
I respectfully request and suggest that she be ordered and directed
to answer this question.
6382 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Willis. She is so ordered.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I found this in my home.
Mr. Arens. Where in yonr home did you find it?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. This was in the basement of my home.
Mr. Arens. Were there any other documents in the basement of
your home pertaining to the Ohio Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born other than these documents which you have just given to
the Committee on Un-American Activities?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazri\^. Well, I tried to bring whatever the subpena called
for.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question, please. Are there any other
documents pertaining to the Ohio Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born which are in your custody and control at your home, other
than those documents which you have today transferred to the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. There are other leaflets concerning it, of the same
type that I brought here, but I did not believe that thej'^ were what
the committee called for.
Mr. Arens. Is there other correspondence of the Ohio Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born between it a]id the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. Not pertaining to anything in reference to what the
committee called for.
Mr. Arens. Are there any membership lists ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. No ; there are no such lists.
Mr. Arens. How long have these documents been in your liome?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where did you get these documents? By "these docu-
ments," I am alluding to those which you have transferred to the
custody of the committee.
Mrs. Zazrivy. How do you mean ?
Mr. Arens. Where did you get them ? How did they happen to be
in your home?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any financial records?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are there financial records of the Ohio Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born in your home?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6383
Mr. Arexs. Does the snbpena duces tecum call for the production
of financial records of the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. Not to my knowledge.
Mr, Arexs. You said a little while ago that the Ohio Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born is no longer in existence; is that
correct ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. That is correct ; to my knowledge.
Mr. Arexs. When did it go out of existence ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. Yes, because you have opened the door. By your
answer a while ago, you said it was no longer in existence. You used
it as a sword, and now you cannot use it as a shield.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment on any past connections
or activities.
Mr. Arexs. "Sir. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this record reflect
the order to this witness to answer the question as to when the Ohio
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born went out of existence.
Mr. Willis. Yes. That is the only pending question, and you are
ordered to answer it.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I don't know the exact date, but it is approximately
a year and a half or 2 years ago.
Mr. Arexs. And who were the officers of that organization when
it went out of existence ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I haven't admitted any connection with the commit-
tee and I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Is there a successor organization ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know whether or not there is a successor organi-
zation to the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Now, I want you to be specific in identification of each
of these documents which you have thus far turned over to the
Committee on Un-American Activities. I have marked the first one
"Exhibit No. 212 a, b".
Exhibit 212 a, b is a call to a Conference to Eepeal the Walter-Mc-
Carran Law and Defend Its Victims, Sunday, March 14, 1954, the
Ukrainian Labor Temple. It is a leaflet issued by the Ohio Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, 5713 Euclid Avenue.
In this leaflet which you have turned over to the committee is listed
Elsie Zazrivy, Z-a-z-r-i-v-y, as secretary. Look at this document and
tell this committee if that is a document which you have produced
from your home and transmitted to this committee pursuant to the
terms of the subpena duces tecum.
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
6384 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question. It is perfectly apparent
that is one of the documents in this envelope she has just handed us.
She has, by her own testimony heretofore, said she is transmitting
documents which she procured from her home pursuant to the terms
of the subpena duces tecum, and any declination on her part now to
identify the particular document as one of the documents in the gross
parcel which she transmitted to us would be purely capricious and
contemptuous.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I have not produced this material voluntarily. I have
produced it at the behest oi the committee.
Mr. Arens. Is that document presently before you which I have
marked — counseFs sole and exclusive right is to advise his client — is
that document which is presently before you, which I have marked
"Exhibit No. 212 a, b," one of the documents which you procured from
your hame and produced before this committee, pursuant to the terms
of the subpena duces tecum ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. ZAZRI^T. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. She has been ordered to answer it already.
(Witness conferred wath counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I have not produced this document volmitarily. I
produced it because of an order of the committee.
Mr. Arens. Produced what?
Mrs. Zazrivy. This document.
Mr. Arens. By "this document," do you mean exhibit 212 a, b?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. If that is the document that 3'ou produced from the
envelope.
Mr. Arens. Wellj is that document presently before you, which I
have marked "Exhibit 212 a, b," one of the documents which you
procured from your home and transmitted to this committee?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazri^t. Something similar to this I brought.
Mr. Arens. Do you recognize that particular document?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. If that is the document that you took from the en-
velope, that is exhibit A. (Exhibit No. 212 a, b.)
Ml-. Arens. I lay before you a document which we are now marking
"Exhibit No. 213." It is a postcard. [Heading :]
"We must have freedom of siieoch, jiress, and religion for all or we may even-
tually have it for none.' * * * Defend the rights of the foreign-born and you
defend your own ! Hear Abner Green, Executive Secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, Monday, May 19, 1205 Superior Avenue.
Look at that card and tell us Avhether or not that is one of the docu-
ments which you found in your home pursuant to the terms of the
subpena duces tecum, and produced before this committee.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. This was produced by order of the committee. I
claim the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6385
Mr. Arens. Is that one that you did produce pursuant to the order
of the committee? That is all t am asking.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mi-s. Zazrivy. It appears to be.
Mr. Arens. Now Mr. Appell is laying before you still a third docu-
ment, which he has marked "Exhibit No. 214 a-d." It is an advance
credential to a Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law, Sun-
day, March 15, 19r);>, the Ukrainian Labor Temple, in Cleveland, under
the auspices of the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
I ask you if this is one of the documents which was produced by you ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the hfth amendment, because I have not pro-
duced this voluntarily, but on order of the comniittee.
Mr. Arens. But did you produce it, irrespective of the nature of
the compulsion ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Zazrivy. It appears to be.
Mr. Arens. And Mr. Appell is now laying before you a document
taken from this bundle that you just handed us, which we are marking
"Exhibit No. 215," which is the letterhead of the Ohio Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, under date of March 6, 1954, with refer-
ence to another conference on repealing the Walter-McCarran Act.
Please identify that.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Airs. Zazpjvy. I claim the fifth amendment. I did not bring this
document voluntarily, but at the insistence of the committee.
Mr. Arens. We have a number of documents, counsel, and I think
we could simplify it if she would say what she wants to say there.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. Will you accept the same answer to each docu-
ment, namely, the fifth amendment?
Mr. Arens. It would not hurt to say whether she produced the
locuments or not.
Mr. ScHi^siNGER. We will save time, say the same answer to each
exhibit, and that she is answering only upon order of the committee.
Mr. Arens. Is she likewise saying in each instance that this is a
documerit which she produced under the compulsion of the subpena
duces tecum ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. The same answer. I think she said it appears
to be.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will lay before you each of the several docu-
ments which we are marking as exhibits in numerical order.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 216-222.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. Tlie same answer.
Mr. Arens. Does that apply to each and every document which he
is now exhibiting to you?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I want it understood that I am testifying only on
order of the committee.
Mr, Arens. We understand that.
6386 C0MMUNI8T POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. WiLi.is. In order to clarify the record, in view of the statement
that these documents "appear to be," let it be noted bj' the counsel and
by the membei-s of this committee that those ai-e the documents that
came out of that envelope.
Mr. Arexs. I think it would even clarify the record if you would
care to take 2 minutes to swear Mr. Appell who was the recipient of
tliese documents a moment ago.
Mr. Appell, would you kindly raise your hand ?
Mr. Willis. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Appell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DONALD T. APPELL, INVESTIGATOE, COMMITTEE
ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Mr. Arens. State j'our full name, residence, and occupation.
Mr. Appell. Donald T. Appell, investigator, Committee on Un-
American Activities, House of Representatives.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell, did you, in the course of the last half hour
or so, in the proceeding now pending, receive from the witness, Elsie
Zazri\^, certain documents ?
Mr. Appell. I did. They were turned over to me by Mrs. Zazrivy
in a brown envelope. I removed the documents, which are now being
exhibited to her from that envelope, and turned them over to you.
These are the same documents which are now^ being exhibited to her.
Mr. Apjsxs. And are these the documents which you marked for
display to Mrs. Zazrivy ?
Mr. Appell. That is true.
Mr. Arens. And are numbered from 212 down to
Mr. Appell. I still have two more to mark. It will be exhibit 222.
Mr. A_rens. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfull}^ suggest that each and every one of
these documents be incorporated in the record.
Mr. Willis. They will be so incorporated and marked.
(See exhibits Nos. 212-222, appendix, pp. 7464-7480.)
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ELSIE ZAZRIVY— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Zazrivy, Mr. Appell is going to display to you
still another document. It is written on the letterhead of the Ohio
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Willis. Now you are getting away from documents in the
envelope ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Tliose have all been incorporated now.
This is on the letterliead of the Ohio Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, dated January 14, 1953, with a signature '"Elsie Zaz-
rivy ,^" and the body of the letter contains, among other language, the
following :
The decision we luade in Detroit to hold an Ohio Conference to defeat the
Vralter-J.Ir-rarran T.a\v is iiettinj; off tlio paper stane and into the actual planning
.'?ta{re.
Tlien it tolls certain tactics to be followed in the repeal of the
AValter-McC'arran law.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6387
Please look at that letter and tell us if you can verify the authen-
ticity of your signature. (See exhibit No. 136, appendix, p. 7331.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. ZAZRI^^^. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you write that letter?
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What have you done in the course of the last few years
in the realm of immigration matters or aid to aliens?
(Witness conferred Avith counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is all that you have done and all that the Ohio Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born has done of such a nature that
if you told this committee about it, you would be supplying informa-
tion which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend that conference in Detroit where plans
were laid for assault on the immigration laws of this country?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document. It is the
Ohio Defender, issued by the Ohio Provisional Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, under date of February 1953 — "March 15 set
for 'repeal the Walter-jNIcCarran Law" Conference'." There is a big
conference, according to this, to be held in Cleveland, at which a num-
ber of people are to speak.
Please look at this and tell us if you can verify the authenticity of
the existence of this conference and whether or not you participated
in it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 223a, b," see appendix, pp. 7481,
7482.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Was that conference of such nature that if you told us
about it you would be supplying information that could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who was Sentner? Do you know him?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. He was a Communist lip for deportation, was he not?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment .
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you still another document, a
press release from the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
A call has been sent out to organizations and individuals throughout the
state of Ohio for a Conference to Repeal the Walter McCarran Law and Defend
its Victims * * ♦ to be held ut the Ukrainian Labor Temple —
at which one of the activities, according to this memorandum, is to
watch a film, "The Sentner Story."
Look at that document and tell us whether or not you were a par-
ticipant in setting up that conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 224," see appendix, p. 7483.)
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
6388 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens, In connection with that, Mr. Appell will also display to
vou the call and leaflet of the conference itself.
(See exhibit No. 212a, b, pp. 7464, 7465.)
Mrs. Zazrint. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. If you told us the truth about that conference which
was set up here to assauh the immigration laws, would you be supply-
ing information that coidd be used against you in a criminal procedure?
Airs. Zazrivy. I chiim the fifth amendment.
Mr. xVrens. Xow, we have still another conference we want to invite
your attention to. It is a Midwest conference, a little bit bigger than
just the Ohio conference. It is a Midwest conference.
An urgent Ciill to attend the Midwest Conference to uphold the Constitution of
the United States and the BiU of Rights and repeal the McCarran Act.
What Avas the McCarran Act, or what is the AlcCarran Act? Do
3'ou know ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. What is the McCarran Act? That is the outstanding
question. Do you knoAV?
Mrs. Zazri\t^. To my understanding, it is the Internal Security
Act.
Mr, Arens. The Internal Security Act.
Xow, did you help set up this conference to repeal the McCarran
Act, the Internal Security Act?
Mrs. Zazria'y. I claim the fifth amendment.
]Mr. Arens. I have here this leaflet on this urgent call to attend the
Midwest Conference to be held in Chicago, and Elsie Zazrivy is listed
here as the executive secretary of the Ohio Bill of Rights Conference.
That is going to be one of the constituent organizations in this urgent
call to uphold the Constitution and defend the Bill of Rights by
repealing the anti-Communist McCarran Act. Just look at that
leaflet and tell us if that rings a bell, if you are the Elsie Zazrivy that
was executive secretary of this Ohio Bill of Rights Conference that
was going to defend the Constitution and defend the Bill of Rights
trying to get the Internal Security Act repealed.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 225,-' see appendix, p. 7484.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You might help defend and protect the Constitution if
you would tell us whether or not that conference took place, ma'am.
Now I have here a document, the national conference— we go from
Ohio, from Cleveland, Ohio, to the Midwest, and now we are spread-
ing to the National Conference — to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law
and Defend its Victims. This is a proceeding in Chicago, again, in
December 11)53. A number of people listed here as participants in
these proceedings include Elsie Zazrivy of Cleveland, who is chairman
of the women's panel. Ix)ok at this document here, if you please, and
tell us whether or not you can perhaps help defend the ConstitutioT>
of the United States and the Bill of Rights and this Republic by
giving us a little light on what might have been going on there in this
conference to repeal the immigi-ation laws of this country.
(See exhibit V, appendix, ])p. 8337-8371.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments as my
right to associate.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6389
Mr. Arexs. Do you honestly feel, nurain, that if you told this com-
mittee while you are under oath the truth as to the nature, the import
and objectives, the membership, of that organization and that con-
ference, the meeting in Ohio to destroy the immigration laws, you
would be supplying information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?
( The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^Ii's. Zazkix Y. I invoke the fii'st and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You have also been active, have you not, in some other
conferences, in some other arenas, to protect the Constitution and to
save the Bill of Rights. I have here before me now a photostatic copy
of the Communist Daily Worker of Tuesday, April 22, 1952 (p. 3).
Two thousand delegates, according to this article, have met and are
meeting in conferences in Cleveland, in Chicago, in Detroit, in Pitts-
burgh, in Philadelphia, and Newark. They are meeting in order
to save the IWO, to save the IWO. Curiously enough, one of the
participants in these conferences all over the country to save the
IWO is the person, according to the Daily Worker, of Mrs. Elsie
Zazrivy, who is identified here as a leader in the fight for the rights of
the foreign born. What is or was the IWO ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrint. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. The IWO was a Connnunist-controlled organization
with nationality sections all over the country, with tens of thousands
of members, all controlled by the Communist conspiracy; isn't that
correct ?
Mrs. Zazrt\t. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Look at this article and tell us how you were going to
serve the interests of the Constitution of the United States and the
Bill of Rights by joining with others trying to protect this Commu-
nist-controlled conspiratorial apparatus. Tell that to us now while
you are under oath, and maybe you can help protect the Constitution,
help protect this Republic.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 226," see appendix, p. 7485.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]\Irs. Zazrivy. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Yelde. ]Mr. Counsel, can you tell me what citations there have
been against the IWO ?
]Mr. Arexs. The IWO has been repeatedly cited by the Attorney
General and other official agencies of the Government as Communist
controlled. The State of New York revoked the charter of the IWO
some few" years ago on the legal theory that the IWO was not a legiti-
mate, bona fide insurance or fraternal order, but that it was an arm
of the conspiratorial apparatus. This is the organization concerning
which the witness this morning, and others, according to the docu-
ments, were trying to save in these various conferences over the
country.
Have you expanded your activities in the public interest by engag-
ing in a campaig7i in behalf of a certain person for President of the
Ignited States ? Were you one of the principal backers and promoters
of the Progressive Party in Ohio?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I invoke the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arex's. T have before me a photostatic cop}- of thr- Evening
Star of Washington, D. C. (June 11, 1918, p. A-C). The article says
85333 — 57— pt. 1 17
6390 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
"Ohio Supreme Court Told Three Main Backers of Wallace Are
Reds." That "Eeds'' means Communists. I think you will concur in
that statement. Among those three main backers of Wallace, accord-
ing to the Ohio Supreme Court, or representation of the Ohio
Supreme Court, are Elsie Zazrivy and David I. Sindell, an attorney,
both of Cleveland. Were you one of the principal backers of the Wal-
lace movement here in Cleveland, in Ohio ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 227," see appendix, p. 7486.)
^Irs. Zazrivy. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Who is Abner Green ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. He is a hard-core member of the Communist conspir-
ac3% and executive secretary of the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Bom ; isn't he ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You haxe had a little correspondence with Abner
Green ; haven't you ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I have not admitted knovv'ing him, and I claim the
firet and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. This is exhibit 217 (see appendix, p. 7473) one of the
documents you produced before us :
How does the Walter-McCarran Law Affect You? * * * It reduces the foreign
born to second-class status." * * * Hundreds of organizations and thousands of
individuals have gone on record to repeal the Walter-McCarran law * * *.
All this is to be done under the auspices of this organization of
which you were executive secretary. Will you tell us a little bit about
that?
Mrs. Zazrivy. T claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. What is your address, again, in Cleveland?
Mrs. Zazrivy. 4132 Brookside.
Mr. Arens. "V^^iat is 5103 Euclid Avenue, in Cleveland?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazri\^'. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 5103 Euclid Avenue?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ever have an office there ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How much has the Ohio Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born collected in the course of the last few years, all for the
purpose of defending the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and these
other objectives of great humanitarian import that you have been
talking about?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Has the Ohio Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in the course of the last few years collected as much as $100,000
for this campaign to promote justice?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliat is the Ohio Defender?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6391
Mr. Arens. Have you ever registered under the lobbying provisions
of the Lobbying Act ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivt. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Wiiiis. Yes. You are ordered to.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. No ; I have not.
Mr. Arens. You have not registered under the Lobbying Act.
Have you, on behalf of any organization, received or expended funds
for the purpose of influencing legislation in the United States Con-
gress ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment,
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you gave us a truthful answer
to that question you would be supplying information that could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now, at this moment, a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chaiiman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Willis. Have you ever been a member of the Connnunist
conspiracy ?
Mrs. Zazrivy. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. The witness will be excused, and we will take a
5-minute informal recess.
(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis and
Velde.)
(Brief recess.)
(Present after the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis
and Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will please proceed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. M. Y. Steinberg. Please come forward and re-
main standing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be tlie truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Steinberg. Yes; I do.
TESTIMONY OF M. Y. STEINBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Steinberg. My name is M. Y. Steinberg. I live in Pittsburgh,
Pa. I am, by occupation, a lawyer.
Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ?
6392 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Steinberg. I was born on Januaiy 1, 1902, in Warsaw, Poland.
Mr, Arens. What is your home address ?
Mr. Steinberg. 5415 Fifth Avenue,
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. Steinberg. In 1907, as I recall.
Mr. Arens. I didn't understand you.
Mr. Steinberg. 1907.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Steinberg. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. Is that by naturalization or derivation ?
Mr. Steinberg. By derivation.
Mr. Arens. Give us just a thumbnail sketch of your education,
please, Mr. Steinberg.
Mr. Steinberg. Grammar school, high school, and a year of college,
and law school.
Mr. Arens. Where did you graduate from law school?
Mr. Steinberg. Duquesne University.
Mr. Arens. And when ?
Mr. Steinberg. 1925.
Mr. Arens. When did you procure your license to practice law?
Mr. Steinberg. The same year.
Mr. Arens. And as a prerequisite to obtaining your license to prac-
tice law, did you take an oath to support and defend the Constitution
of the United States?
Mr. Steinberg. I did.
Mr. Aeens. And subsequent to the oath which you took as a pre-
requisite to obtaining your license to practice in the courts of the
State in which you reside, Pennsylvania, did you become a member
of an organization dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of
the United States?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. May I say that, to the best of my ability and beliefs,
I have always upheld the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Now just answer the question. Did you, subse-
quent to the time you took an oath to support and defend the Con-
stitution of the United States, in order to practice law in the courts
of Pennsylvania, did you thereafter join an organization which is
dedicated^ to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States
and the overthrow of this Government by force and violence ?
Mr. Steinberg. As to that, I invoke the protection of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Steinberg. I am not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Steinberg. The same answer. I invoke the protection of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party — this is
195(5 — were you a member of the Communist Party in 1950 ?
Mr. Steinberg. I have said I am not a member. As to any prior
references thereto, I invoke the protection of the fifth and first
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a year
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. The same answer, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6393
Mr. Akens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?
Mr. Steinberg. I have never been under discipline, to my knowl-
edge, of any kind.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline at any
time in the past ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have never been under disci-
pline by the Communist Party or anybody else, except to my conscience.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever resign from the technical membership in
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Steinberg. To that, I invoke the protection of the first and
fifth amendments, sir.
Mr. Arens. I am not sure I asked this question, but I must clear
the record. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday ?
Mr. Steinberg. You asked that. 1 was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a year
ago?
yiv. Steinberg. I did answer that. I told you I said that I am not
presently a member. As to any membership prior to now, I invoke
the protection of the first
Mr. Arens. Yesterday is prior to that and you gave us an answer
to that. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months ago?
Mr, Steinberg. At some point I am going to stop.
Mr. Arens. We will stay right with you, Mr. Steinberg, until
doomsday. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a week
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party o days
ago?
Mr. Steinberg. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 2 davs
ago ?
Mr. Steinberg. Same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. Xow we will come back to the question. Were you a
member of the Communist Party yestei'day ?
Mr. Sit:inberg. I answered that.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Stein-berg. I was not, sir.
Mr, Arens, You were not a member of the Communist Party yes-
terday, but you invoke the fifth amendment with reference to the
Communist Party 2 days ago, is that correct?
(The witness conferred with his counsel,)
Mr. Arens. Is there a question outstanding that you are waiting to
answer?
Mr. Steinberg. I am sorry. Is there a question ?
Mr. Arens. I didn't think so, but you were in colloquy there, and
I thought perhaps you were ready to make another statemoit.
Now, Mr. Steinberg, did you, in a proceeding with reference to
your professional status in Pennsylvania, testify that you had been
a member of the Communist Party for a certain period in your life?
Mr. Steinberg. I refuse to answer that, sir, and invoke the protec-
tion of the first and fifth amendments.
6394 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. What lias been your connection with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born '^
(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Steinberg. I am not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you served as counsel for the American Com-
mittee for Protection of ForeigTi Born ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have not.
Mr. Arens. Well, perhaps this will refresh your recollection. I
have a copy of a page from the Lamp (November-December 1947,
p. 3), the official publication of the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born — "Committee Designates Local Counsel," listing
a number of people who are in the engagement of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, in connection with the Commu-
nist c.'.ses. I haven't said that quite fairly. I want to correct the
record. In connection with cases — the Lamp doesn't say "Commu-
nist" cases — in connection with certain cases. The counsel designated
for the Pittsburgh area is M. Y. Steinberg. Kindly look at that and
tell us whether or not you can verify the authenticity of that statement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 228," see appendix, p. 7487.)
(The witness conferred with his comisel.)
Mr. SiTEiNBERG. I have no recollection of ever having been counsel
for the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I have
represe]ited clients in deportation matters.
Mr. Arens. Are those matters referred to you by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Arens. How about the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Steinberg. I have not been engaged by the Western Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. Frankly, I know of no such organi-
zation, to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to the official siunmary
proceedings of the 15th Anniversary National Conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which was held
in Chicago, December 11 and 12, 1948. Mr. Appell will show it to you.
On page 2 there under the heading "Nominating Committee" — and
you will note that the people in the nominating coimnittee are desig-
nated as members of the committee — there is an M. Y. Steinberg,
identified as a member of the nominating committee. Did you attend
that conference, and were you a member of this nominating committee
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in
Chicago ?
(Document marked "Exhibit I," see appendix, pp. 8269-8274.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
Mr. Arens. The fact is you were there and you were on the nomi-
nating committee, and you were a participant ni the activities of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ; isn't that true ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have no recollection of having
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6395
been on any nominating committee. I claim the protection of the
first and fiftli amendments as to the rest of my answer.
Mr. Arexs. Did you attend the Chicago conference?
]Mr. Steixberg. I claim the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
Mr. Arens. "We want to show you still another document. It
is a summary proceedings for the National Conference Against
Deportation Hysteria. It is sponsored by the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, held in Detroit, Mich., December 3
and 4. According to this document, the official proceedings, M. Y.
Steinberg was elected to the board of directors. Look at that docu-
ment, now, when Mr. Appell displays it to you, and tell this committee
whether or not you are he.
Mr. Steinbero. What is the date of that?
Mr. Arens. 1949.
I beg your pardon. I thought I said it.
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
Mr. Arens. This is the National Conference Against Deportation
Hysteria, held in Detroit, Mich., under the auspices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Steinberg. In Detroit, Mich ?
Mr. Arens. In Detroit, Mich. Were you in Detroit, Mich, in 1949,
and were you elected to the board of directors of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(See exhibit II, appendix, pp. 8275-8302.)
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth
ameiidments.
~Sh\ Arens. This conference in Detroit passed a resolution com-
mending and endorsing the efforts of the Civil Rights Congress to
defend the people's liberties, and defeat the attempt to imprison the
leaders of the Communist Party. Did you help sponsor that resolu-
tion, commending this Communist-controlled Civil Rights Congress
and to do what could be done to defend the leaders of the Communist
Party?
ilr. Steinberg. I have no recollection of sponsoring any resolution,
sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the passage of that resolution ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I did not.
Mr. Arens. Did you oppose the resolution ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I know nothing of it.
Mr. Arens. Elected to the board of directors of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born at this national conference held
in Deti'oit were a number of people. Would you kindl,y look over that
list and tell us how many of those people you know as participants in
that ccmference and as members of the board of directors?
Mr. Steinberg. I claim the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments, sir.
]Mr. Arens. How many of those people on that board of directors
are known b}^ you as a certainty to be members of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. Steinberg. I have no knowledge, sir, and I claim the protection
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Just look down tlie list, and we will test your knowledge.
Do you have knowledge or do you not have knowledge?
6396 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Steinberg. I claim the protection of the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. "\"\liat was the interest of the National Conference
Against Deportation Hysteria on another little piece of legislation, the
Hobbs bill ? What was the Hobbs bill, do you recall ?
Mr. Steinberg. I do not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember what the Internal Security Act was?
Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. I advise you that the Internal Security' Act incorporated
the provisions of the JHobbs bill in it. I observe here a resolution
which was passed by this conference.
Resolved, That all orgauizatious represented at this Conference prepare a
mass campaign within their organizations and within their communities to fight
against the passage of the Hobbs Concentration Camp Bill; and that this Con-
ference call for the initiation of the broadest possible national campaign against
the passage of the Hobbs Bill.
As a member of the board of directors of this conference and of this
organization, you perhaps would have some knowledge respecting the
legislative endeavors of the organization. Do you recall the drive
that was staged by this conference, and by these organizations, con-
stituent organizations, to defeat the Hobbs bill?
Mr. Steinberg. I do not recall it, sir.
Mr. Arens. In 1949 there was created in Pittsburgh an organization
or a committee known as the American- Yugoslav Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, a specialized agency. Tell this Committee
on Un-American Activities what knowledge you have of this Ameri-
can-Yugoslav Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Steinberg. I can recall no connection. I have no recollection
of it, at the present time.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Civil Rights Congress ?
Mr. Steinberg. To my knowledge, I have not been, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified with a branch of the
Civil Rights Congress in Pittsburgh?
Mr. Steinberg. I have no recollection of it, sir.
Mr, Arens. Have you ever been identified with the Progressive
Party of AYestern Pennsylvania?
Mr. Steinberg. I represented them at one time in some legal
matter.
Mr. Arens. Is that the only nature of your association in con-
nection with the Progressive Party?
Mr. Steinberg. As to that, I don't know that it makes much
difference, but I will ask for the protection of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Alexander Wright?
Mr. Steinberg. I invoke the protection of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Alexander Wright was one of the moving forces of the
Progressive Party of Western Pennsylvania, was he not ?
Mr. Steinberg. I must claim the protection of the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Did Alexander Wright collaborate with you in work
with the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in connection with efforts to undermine the Internal Security
Act, the Smith Act, and the security provisions of the Immigration
and Nationalitv Act, and the non-Communist affidavit provisions of
the Taft-Hartley Act?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6397
Mr. Steinberg. To mv recollection and knoAvledge, I liave never
collaborated with anybody in connection Avitli any of that stuff that
you mentioned.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been in conference with Alexander Wright
on this subject matter?
Mr. Steinberg. To that I invoke the protection of the fifth.
]Nfr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. TViLLis. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Miss Evelyn Abelson, please come forward.
^Ir. Willis. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Miss Abelson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS EVELYN ABELSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, HYMEN SCHLESINaER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
]Miss Abelson. Mv name is Evelyn Abelson. My residence is 101
Clark Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation?
Miss Abelson. If I state my occupation, I will be fired. I prefer
to withhold that.
Mr. Arens. You are requested to state your occupation.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. The question is simply your occupation. It does not
seem too difficult to answer.
Miss Abelson. I am a social worker.
Mr. Arens. And you work where?
( The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I expect if I make public where I work, that I will be
fired. I hope that I do not have to make public that information.
Mr. Arens. Maybe it would be in the public interest if we would
divulge where you work. Tell this committee
]Mr. Willis. Why would you be fired ?
Miss Abelson. Well, it is known that many people who appear be-
fore these committees are fired from their jobs. I feel quite certain
that the same thing would happen to me, from past experience with
other people. And, therefore, if it is at all possible, I should not like
to be fired from my job.
Mr. Velde. I just imagine if you will answer the questions that are
put to you by our counsel, your employer would be very happy to
continue you on the payroll, whoever your employer is. It is very,
very seldom that this committee has ever interfered with the employ-
ment of any witness who has come before the committee. I am sure
that you have no fear.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Willis. As a matter of fact, that sounds all right, to say that
if you tell where you work, you are going to be fired. But that is
6398 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
just a little speech. The fact that you have appeared here will be
just as well known to your employer by the news releases as if you
tell where you are employed. As Mr. Velde has said, if you will
answer all of the questions which are propounded to you, I think your
employer Avill be ])leased that you attended.
Mr. Arens. What do you do at the place where you are employed?
Miss Abelson. I am a social worker.
Mr. Arens. And what do you do where you are employed ?
Miss Abelson. I do the usual duties of a social worker.
Mr. Arens. And among whom do you work ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. As I have said, I would like to not identfy my w'ork
and my employer because I would not like to lose my job. I would
appreciate it if I would not have to give this kind of information.
Mr. Arens. Let's start this W' ay, and then we will come back to that
question. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Keuben Hardin ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Reuben Hardin took an oath and swore before the Sub-
versive Activities Control Board of this Government that you were
a Communist. Was Reuben Hardin lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Your Honor, I have learned recently about many
Government witnesses who have lied. I am not able to judge the
veracity of this witness, and I would like to protect myself by claiming
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Willis. Match your veracity against that witness.
Mr. Arens. You ought to be able to tell this committee whether
Hardin was lying when he said you were a Communist. That is a
pretty bad thing to say these days.
(The witness conferred w-ith her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Could you please apprise me of the question that is
now before me?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Was Hardin lying when he said that he knew you
as a Communist?
Miss Abelson. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. No; you haven't. You said — I forgot what you did
say.
Miss Abelson. I think I claimed the first and fifth amendments by
explaining also that I couldn't judge as to the veracity of this par-
ticular witness.
Mr. Arens. Then just forget about his veracity. Are you a
Communist ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now^ tell the committee where you work.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I appeal to the chairman of the committee. As I
said before, I wish that I wouldn't have to divulge this so I w^ouldn't
lose my employment. However, if I am ordered to
Mr. Arens. If we don't make you answer that question as to where
you work, will you tell us about the AVestern Pennsylvania Committee
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6399
for Protection of Foreign Born, tell us about the Civil Rights Con-
gress, and tell us about your activities in connection with those Com-
munist-controlled organizations to destroy the security provisions of
the law and to cripple the national security program of this Govern-
ment ? Will you do that ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I wish to state to this committee that I have always,
to the best of my ability, supported the Constitution of the United
States.
Mr. Arens. 1 ell us, have you ever been a member of an organiza-
tion dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United
States?
Miss Abelson. I have never done anything, in all m.j knowledge,
to do anything that would subvert the best interests of the people of
the United States, nor the Constitution, which I admire and which I
am very proud to live under,
Mr. Arens. And just tell us, if you please, have you ever been a
member of an organization which is dedicated to the destruction of
the Constitution of the United States?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]Miss Abelson. As I said before, I have done the best I could to
fight for the Constitution
Mr, Akens. Just answer this question. Tell us whether or not you
have been a member of an organization, and wliether or not you are
at this moment, a member of an organization, which has, as one of its
principal objectives, tlie destruction of the Constitution of the United
States, and then we will proceed from there.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
!Miss Abelson. What organization are you referring to, sir?
]Mr. Arens. Don't you have any idea ?
^liss Abelson. Frankly, no.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
(The w^itness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Willis. "Well, to be entirely fair, just ask her the $64 question
again.
Mr. Arens, Are you a njember of the Communist Party?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not the Communist Partv is
dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States
and the overthrow of this Government by force and violence?
Miss Abelson, I claim the first and fifth amendments,
Mr, Arens. Now we are back where we started from. Tell us where
you work.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson, Your Honor, I am a social worker for a private
social agency,
Mr. Arens. And what is the name of that private social agency?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. As I said, if I give the name, I will certainly be fired.
Mr. Arens. Did you have a discussion with your employers respect-
ing your membership in the Communist Party Vhen you accepted this
position with this private social agency ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
6400 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX
Miss Abelson. I have never discussed any of my personal or politi-
cal beliefs with my employers.
Mr. Arens. Do Vou think your losing your job might be because the
parents of the children that you influence in communism, try to in-
fluence in communism, might protest a little bit if they knew they
had a Communist on the grounds ? Do you think that is what might
be in the back of your mind ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Your Honor, I have only one thing in mind, and
that is not to lose my job. I have once lost my job because of a
statement that was made against me, and that is the only thing that
I have in mind, not to lose my employment.
Mr. Willis. I understand that. The only way you can clear it is
by answering questions.
Mr. Arens. Where did you lose your job because someone said
something about you '? Where was that ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I mean
Mr. Arens. No. Where was it that you lost your job because
someone said something about you? Just tell this committee.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Your Honor, I don't know how that would be rele-
vant to this material
Mr. Arens. You opened the door. You made the statement. You
have started us on this route, and we want to finish it so the record
will be complete.
Miss Abelson. I am trying to be as honest with the committee and
explain my reasoning as I expect you want me to. As I say, I don't
know how that will be relevant. If I am ordered to answer it
Mr. Arens. Are you presently employed at the Jenny E. Clarkson
Home for Girls at Valhalla, N. Y. ?
Miss Abelson. Yes, I am, I think it is unfair, and I think it is
unfortunate that you know that I will lose my job. I am.
Mr. Arens. How old are the girls
Mr. Willis. That seems to be your tlieme here. I think there is
more to it than what you are saying. On the question of appearance
before this committee, I cannot conceive that appearance has any-
thing to do with losing a job. Tlie question may involve jobs, but
we have no control over your association with the Communist Party.
That is hoAV you could keep your job, by saying it is not true, the
sworn testimony that we have.
Mr. Arens. You didn't lose your job with the Western Pennsylvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born because somebody said
something bad about you, did you?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You didn't lose your job as executive secretary of the
Civil Rights Congress in Pennsylvania because someone said some-
thing bad about you, did you ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party ever deprive you of a job?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6401
Mr. Arens. How old are these girls at this Jenny E. Clarkson Home
for Girls at Valhalla, N.Y.?
(The witness conferred with her comisel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. Yes.
You are directed to ansAver the question.
(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I am not certain about the exact ages of the children
in that home. I think that the charter provides for children between
tlie ages of 5 and 18.
Mr. Arens. And how many are there in the home?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directecl to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. Yes.
You are directed to ansAA-er the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I frankly really don't know. I Avould estimate that
there are about 40.
Mr. Arens. Are you a subscriber to the Daily Worker ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. We haA^e here a Avrapper Avith the Communist Daily
Worker in it addressed to EA'^elyn Abelson, 5725 Phillips Avenue,
Pittsburgh, 17, Pennsylvania. Look at that and tell us if you are she.
We are going to give you an opportunity noAV to make your employer
proud of you, and these little girls proud, that you are here serving
your country, telling us all about the conspiratorial apparatus that
Avoulcl destroy this country. Just tell us if you are she. Perhaps you
received the Daily Worker to use it in uncovering other Communists
or something. We receive it in our Avork all the time.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 229," see appendix, p. 7488.)
Miss Abelson. I think it is illegal to interfere with the mails.
Mr. Arens. Just tell us Avhether or not that Avas your address there,
Avhether or not you received the Daily Worker.
Miss Abelson. I would like to consult with my laAvyer about your
authority to interfere with the mails.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead and consult with him.
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I have been apprised by my laAvyer that you haA'^e
no authority to interfere with the mails, and that by presenting it, if
this is a violation of my mail, that you liaA^e invaded all of my
constitution
Mr. Arens. How do you know it until you tell us whether or not
that is yours ? Tell us whether or not it is yours.
Miss Abelson. I say, if you have, you have violated all of my
constitutional rights.
Mr. Arens. Let's cross that bridge when Ave get to it. Let's cross
the first bridge now. Tell us now Avhether or not tliat is you there to
Avhom that Communist Daily Worker is addressed, and then we will
cross the second bridge.
6402 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments. But the
point I made, I want still to be valid, that this is an outrageous in-
vasion of my constitutional rights.
Mr. Arens. Do you observe any postal stamj) or any postage on that
document? That is the second bridge we are going to cross now.
Do you see any postage on there ?
Miss Abelsox. I only know Avhat j'ou said, and the document speaks
for itself.
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee now, in view of your tirade
against the committee, whether or not you see any postage mark on
there.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Ask the counsel whether he sees any on there. Maybe
he can help you.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Basing mj^self upon the statements of the counsel
of the committee, I maintain that my constitutional rights have been
invaded, and I assume that I have to take what the counsel says as fact.
Mr. Arens. We want to lay before you another exhibit. It is a
receipt book of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. It is signed there for the receipts for contributions
to that organization by one Evelyn Abelson. Would you please look
at that receipt book and make your employer and these little girls up
there in New York proud of you by telling us whether or not that is
the receipt book of this Communist conspiratorial apparatus?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 230a-d," see appendix, pp. 7489-
7492.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we have an original letter by Abner Green, dated
June 24, 1954, addressed to "Dear Evelyn" — I think our record reflects
that Abner Green has been repeatedly identified as a member of the
hard, hard core of the Communist conspiracy, and is executive secre-
tary of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This article on the Western Pennsylvania Committee you prepared for the
Lamp cannot be nsecl, and unfortunately, it is now too late to ask you to prepare
another one for this issue. We will carry one in the next issue.
In preparing the article, please keep in mind that the Lamp is a biased pub-
lication. We work like the dickens, therefore, to at the least mate it as factual
as possible, without too much politicalizing. If the material were highly polit-
ical as well as biased, it would be a lot more diflBcult to read than it is. By
political, I mean agitational since I do not feel that the Lamp, by being factual
and somewhat restrained, is at the same time being political in the correct sense
of the word. If you don't understand all of this, please drop me a note.
Best regards.
Yours,
Abner.
Look at that original letter there and see if you recall receiving
that from Abner.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. If this is, as you say, an original letter addressed
to me, I woidd want to question how you obtained such letter.
Mr. Arens. You tell us whether or not it is such original letter,
and then we will get to the second bridge again.
Miss Abelson. I am not able to say, but I want to make clear the
point, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6403
Mr. Arexs. Why can't you say ? Why can't you say wliether or
not that is an original letter ?
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr, Arens. You could make your employer and those little girls
miglity proud of you up there if you would help expose this Com-
munist operation.
(Tlie witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. If this is, as 3'ou say
^Ir. Arens. You tell us. That is the first question we are going
to decide right now. Is that a letter that you received from Abner
Green ? Just tell us that. Let's cross that bridge first.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Accepting your statement, then, somebody is stealing
letters.
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee now whether or not that is
the letter that you received from Abner Green. Then we will cross
the next bridge.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. But if what you say is so, then my constitutional
rights have really been violated.
Mr. Arens. We will cross that bridge in just a moment. You just
tell us whether or not that is an original letter which you received
from Abner Green, this hard-core Communist agent from the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, about an article you
were going to write for The Lamp.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I am advised by my counsel that I have, first, a right
to know whether this came into your possession legally.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question as to whether or not
she can identify that letter, while she is under oath.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer that question.
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you still another exhibit. It is
a mimeographed newsletter issued by the Western Penns3dvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, under date of January-
February 1954, and it contains a section entitled "Western Pennsyl-
vania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born demands Congress-
man Fulton take a stand on the Walter-McCarran Act !" It demands
all kinds of things with reference to the repeal and destruction of
the McCarranite forces, in the fight to uncover this undemocratic
Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at this and see if you were instrumental in preparing
this release.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 231," see appendix, p. 7493.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. And did you and your colleagues up there in the
Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
write to the Pennsylvania delegation, demanding that certain things
be done on the immigration laws?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
6404 COMlylUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Abelson. I understand that any citizen has a right to com-
municate with his Congressman
Mr. Arens. Surely, and any citizen ought to be able to say "Yes,
I did it, because I believed in it."' Won't you tell us that, whether
or not you did it ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Willis. The right to petition is right in the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. It is a sacred right.
Mr. Willis. We just want to know whether you did it, and under
what circumstances and for what reason.
Mr. Arens. And for what organization.
Miss Abelson. May I consult my counsel?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. AVould you please repeat your question again?
Mr. Arens. Read the question to her, Mr. Reporter.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendmeiits.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a letter here. Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, signed Evehm Abelson, execu-
tive secretary, dated August 19, 1954, addressed to "Dear Sir."
Our organization is interested in the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act.
This act is one of the most vicious, racist laws on the statute books, depriving
noncitizens of all rights and threatening naturalized citizens with the loss of
citizenship at the whim of the Attorney General.
It is our understanding that you nre a candidate for pulilic office. Tour can-
didacy comes at a time of crucial importance to the people of our country, when
our basic freedoms are being challenged by McCarthyism.
Our organization is interested in what you will do to help repeal the Walter-
McCarran Act. Many people in your district who are in contact with our or-
ganization have asked us to let them know how all candidates in this election
stand on this vital issue, so that they can vote accordingly. This, we feel, is the
concern not only of the congressonal candidates, but of all candidates for public
office.
We intend to make known as widely as possible how the various candidates
stand on the repeal of this act. We hope that we may hear from you soon, and
that we may arrange a meeting between you and a representative of our com-
mittee to further discuss this matter.
Look at that document, if you would, please. And serve your Gov-
ernment and serve the interests of this country by telling us whether
or not you sent that letter to all these candidates. Then we will have
a few more questions, if you wdll just get us that far along.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 232," retained in committee files.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Akens. Did you send that letter ? Just tell us that.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have a copy of the Communist Worker of Sunday,
September 19, 1954 (p. 15).
"Demos Get Plea to Junk Walter-McCarran Act" and I want to
read this to you.
The Platform Committee of the Democratic Party in session here last month,
received a plea from the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born to work
for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act.
A statement submitted by Evelyn Abelson, secretary of the Committee, pointed
out that 25 people in Western Pennsylvania are facing deportation as a result
of the Walter-McCarran Act.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6405
There are all kinds of other statement? of that character appearing
here in this. Xo\\', tell this committee, serve your Government, make
your emplo3^er prond of you, and these little girls up tliere in Xew
York proucl of you. and tell us, did you submit this statement on
behalf of the Western Pennsylva]na Committee for Protection of
Foi-eign Born to the Platform Committee of the Democratic Party in
Pennsylvania?
(The witness conferred witli her counsel.)
Mr, Arens. You know, Miss Abelson, this series of hearings we
are holding is a series on what the Communists are doing to undertake
to subvert the anti-Communist program of our Government, including
the security provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act. Just tell us,
did you actually submit this statement to the Democratic platform
committee ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 233," see appendix, p. 7494.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]Mr. Arexs. We will have another question after you tell us chut.
jNIiss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. And did you tell them that you were a member of the
Communist conspiracy, and that the Western Pennsylvania Commit-
tee for Protection of Foi-eign 13orn was part of the Communist ap-
paratus? Did you tell them that?
^liss Abelson. I am not sure that I am clear as to what the question
is, Your Honor.
Mr. Arens. Did you tell the platform committee of your identifica-
tion with the Communist conspiracy and of the control the Con^imunist
conspiracy has of the West<»rn Pennsylvania Committee for I^'rotec-
tion of Foreign Born? Did you tell them all that?
Mi-:s Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Who are these 25 people, the sad cases of 25 people
in western Pennsylvania, who are facing deportation as a result of
the Walter-McCarran Act ? Do you recall 25 people
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. They were all CommAinist agents, were they not, who
were being deported under the Walter-McCarran Act?
Miss Abelson. 1 claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Would it help if you looked at this article? Would
that refresh your recollection, do you suppose?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want you to direct your attention, if you please, to
another exhibit. It is a newsletter, April 1954, issued by the West-
ern Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born — "Har-
riet Barron to speak."
They were going to have a communitywide rally. The recitation
here is that the Western Pennsylvania Conunittee for Protection of
Foreign Born is not a political organization. However, the out-
spoken enemies of the foreign born are running for office and every-
thing must be done to assure that this vicious law is repealed. There
is a list of local cases, people who are being hurt by this Walter-
McCarran Immigration Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 234," see appendix, p. 7495.)
Look at that and tell this committee whether or not you prepared
that leaflet which was sent out over Pennsylvania.
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
8r>3;i;5— 57— pt. i 18
6406 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. iVRENS. I have another letter here, dated March 31, 1954, I
want to ask you about, that you can help us with. It is on the letter-
head of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in
Xew York City. It is addressed "Dear Evelyn," and signed "Har-
riet." According to the letterhead of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, Harriet Barron is the administrative
secretary. It says:
I am rearranging my schedule so that I can be in Pittsburgh on the ISth. I
assume that you would want me to come in on the 17th so that we can have a day
to discuss things before the meeting. Let me know. Regards.
Sincerely,
Haeriet.
Here is another one, dated April 13, 1954. I will take 2 or 3 at a
time. Another one from Harriet :
Deak Evelyn : Steve was here yesterday and he seemed to be of the impression
that a date had been set for a meeting. Please let me know what the date
is. * * * ^Ve also discussed somewhat some of the problems of the Commit-
tee. * * *
This Steve that is talked about here in this letter from Harriet
Barron, is that Steve Nelson, do you suppose ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Ma'am, could you give me your attention ? Was this
Steve alluded to in the letter from Harriet Barron to you, Steve Nelson
who was there conferring with her about the problems of the com-
mittee ?
Miss Abelson. May I please see that letter ?
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Here is another one from Harriet, dated June 22, 1954 :
Dear Evelyn : Do you know whether a witness named Frank Lowell has been
used in your area ; or whether anyone knows about him. He is being used in a
West Virginia case (Charleston) and they would like any information j'ou
have. Let me know as soon as possible.
It is nice to have seen you. Hope you found everything under control when
you got back.
That was in June of 1954, written from New York.
(See exhibits Nos. 44, 45, and 46, appendix, p. 7162.)
If you will just identify these letters for us, you can serve your
country, make your employer glad, and maybe save your job.
Mr. Willis. In the meantime, tell us who Steve is.
Mr. Arens. Tell us who Steve is.
Miss Abelson. The first thing I would like to bring to the com-
mittee's attention is that these appear to be original letters, and it
seems to me that it is a clear violation of the law to tamper with the
m.ails. I really wonder about the committee
Mr. Arens. That question we will get to, if you decide whether or
not they are original lettei's that were sent to you. Let's decide that
first.
Miss Abelson. About the committee taking these letters. I want
to make that statement, because I am sensitive
Mr. Arens. We will say to clear the record now, because you have
made this public pronouncement, that all of the documents I am using
have been obtained by a lawful process by the House Un-American
Activities Committee, pursuant to a subpena duces tecum. But tell
the committee while you are under oath, so your employer will read
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6407
it in the paper back there and be proud of you, whether or not you can
identify those letters.
]\Iiss"ABELSoN. When and where were these letters obtained?
^Ir. "Willis. Never mind tliat.
Mr. Arens. We will cross that bridge in a second. You tell us
-whether or not they are original letters. If they are not, there is no
use going further, is there i'
Mr. AViLLis. If they are fakes, tell us so.
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, who is the Steve that Harriet talks about, who
was up there visiting her?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^liss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
yh\ Arexs. I liave still anotlier letter I am going to invite your
attention to.
Mr, Willis. Is that Steve Nelson ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, a topflight Comintern agent. He is leader of
the Soviet espionage in the United States.
Miss Abelson. I just want to say, I w^onder how the counsel for the
committee knoAvs who that is.
Mr. Arens. You tell us. You are the one who is under oath. You
tell us whether or not
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments. But the
counsel made a statement, and I wonder what the basis for his state-
ment is.
Mr. Arens, You won't talk, and here you are trying to get me to
testify.
Miss Abelson, No; I just want to make one point to the committee,
if I may.
Mr. Arens. I don't think I am going to lose my job because I identi-
fied him as a top-flight Comintern agent.
Miss Abelson. I would like to make one point, if I may. I cer-
tainly wasn't able — I claimed the first and fifth amendments on those
ciuestions, but I wonder how the counsel was able to make a statement.
Mr. Arens. If you w^ll just identify him, we will probably get to
that point. You see, if you don't get over the first hurdle, then we
can't get to the second hurdle.
I have another letter, an original letter, addressed to Evelyn Abel-
son, Pittsburgh Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, Pitts-
burgh, from Dolsen, James Dolsen :
Dear Evelyn : At last I have received some news of what your organization
is doing. Someone sent a copy of your Sept. Bulletin. A dollar is enclosed,
for which I ask to be put on your mailing list for the bulletin and all other
issued material. Any other worthy news items you can send me will be
appreciated.
Remember, I must get material by a Friday in order to get it in the Pa.
Worker for the following week's issue.
Could you secure a copy of the Post-Gazette and clip out the editorial referred
to in your Sept. UuUetin commouting on the Allegheny County Bar Assn. state-
ment re right to counsel ?
Material on deportation and denaturalization cases would be welcomed.
With best wishes and greetings to all.
(Signed) Dolsen.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 235," see appendix, p. 7-106.)
6408 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Look at that and tell us if you can verify the authenticity of it.
Then we will ^et to the question of Avhether or not the Committee on
Un-American Activities has been violating the law.
Miss Abfxson. I Avould like to raise a question. By what ])ossible
way could I answer whether these letters are origiiial or not^
Mr. Arens. Look at them and see if you do. If you don't, say you
don't, and that will settle it.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^Miss Abelsox. One thing would be if it were
Mr. Arexs. Here is a letter that I think you should be willing to
help us on. This is with your signature on it (dated June 1. 1954) :
Dfar Friend : At the last open meeting of the Western Penna. Committee For
Protection Of Foreign Born several persons at the meeting agreed to make a
regular monthly contribution in order to assure sufficient funds to carry on the
work of the committee.
This note is to remind you of your pledge and also to interest otht?rs who
see the vital role of our committee to make such a contribution.
I am enclosing an addressed stamped envelope for your convenience. If you
have not already pledged a monthly amount I would appreciate your advising
me how much I can expect from you each month. I am certain you know the
importance of funds in makeing [sic] adequate plans to carry on the very
important defense work and activities for the repeal of the Walter-McCarrau Act.
Fraternally yours,
Evelyn Abelson, Executive Secretary.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 236," see appendix, p. 7497.)
I am sure you can tell us about your signature, and if you can't,
sign another paper there and let's compare the signatures, so we can
get along.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. B}' the w^ay, Mr. Chairman, I would respectfully sug-
gest, if it meets with your approval, that if, as, and w'hen this witness
signs her voucher for pay, that her signature be incorporated into
this record so we can help identify these documents she seems to be
having a little difficulty with.
Mr. Willis. So ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 237," see appendix, p. 7498.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us whether or not that is your sigiiature,
or whether or not it is a forgery or what has happened ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments?
Mr. Arens. Now I want to laj- before you still another document.
It is a collection list.
We, the undersigned citizens of the United States, view with alarm and
anxiety the increasing use of the WALTER-McCARRAN ACT against the foreign
and native born of our nation. * ♦ *
We call uiion every trade unionist, progressive and liberal to rally to the de-
fense of Mr. Santos ' and the 24 additional victims of the WALTER-:\IcCARRAN
ACT. We ask you to donate whatever you can to their defense, and the support
of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for the Protection of the Foreign
Born. ♦ * *
I.ssued by The Western Pennsylvania Committee For The Protection of
Foreign Born.
T>ook at that and tell us if you got up that document, and how much
you collected on that little drive.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 238," see appendix, p. 7499.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
1 Also spelled Tsantes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6409
Mr. Akens. Is that a forgery, is that a fraud or an original ^
Miss Abelson, I chiim the hrst and lifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document from Evelyn Abelson
with reference to a reception of the Western Pennsylvania Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, and still another one, "Stop the
denaturalization of the foreign born." It doesn't say ''Stop the de-
naturalization of the Communist foreign born," it just says stop the
denaturalization of the foreign born. "Defend Joseph Mankin."
"Your citizenship rights are at stake." If Mankin's citizenship is
taken away from him, it is an attack against you. Protect your rights
as an American. Send your protest to the Attorney General, United
States Attorney. Also,"^ "Repeal the Mc-Carran- Walters [sic] Act."
Issued by the Committee To Protect Joseph Mankin's Citizenship.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 239 and 240," see appendix, pp.
7500-7501.)
It says here if you have any further information you want relative
to this matter, communicate with Evelyn Abelson, 6328 Forbes Street,
Pittsburgh 17, Pa.
You look at that and lielp your Government by telling us whether
or not that is a true and correct document.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. Do you correspond or have you been in correspondence
with Allan ? Who is Allan ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. That couldn't be Allan McNeil, could it, the Commu-
nist Allan McNeil ?
Let me read you a letter here in handwriting, signed "Allan,"
addressed just "Evelyn."
This is a good order. You did a good job. As a victory, temporary but still a
victory, it deserves publicity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 241," see appendix, p. 7502.)
I will not read the entire letter, but you just look at this letter now
and tell this committee Avhether or not that is bogus or whether or not
you actually did receive the original of that letter from Allan, and
then tell us what this good job is you did, and maybe if you lose the
job you liave you can get anotlier job because you do such good jobs.
(Tlie witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. Based on your statements, I would assume that
somebody is stealing correspondence.
Mr. Arexs. Let's forget about my statement for a moment and see
if you can verify the authenticity of that letter.
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Here are two other letters, one signed by Allan D.
McNeil : the other closing with : "Fraternally and sincerely" and with
the notation, "send all contributions to the Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born."
I am enclosing a copy of a press release issued by the local Coniinittee for the
Protection of the Foreign Born around the more recent attack upon uie. Here
again we have a situation where for two years the Government agents have
been on rny back because I refuse to "cooperate" with them.
Cooperate is in quotation marks.
6410 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
When first arrested I was warned that they "would make a Christian out of me,"
to quote the arresting officer.
Well, I don't like Fascists of any variety. My record in Spain and in the
trade-union movement for over the past twenty years has confirmed my hatred
of informers and dislike of the people who consciously use them. * * *
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 242:1, b." see fippendix. p. 7508.)
Tlien tliere is an analysis in this letter of how bad the McCarran
Act is, and how it is undermining all of America, and how everybody
ouo;ht to rally to destroy it, and how we ought to be careful about ih&
people losing jobs on just bogus subversive charges and the like.
Look at that letter and see if you can verify the authenticity of that
letter.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
j\Iiss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have two documents I want you to consider together.
One is a newsletter (September 1954). issued by the Western Penn-
sylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which it says
that ]\Iorris Seder, Walter-McCarran Act victim, dies. According
to this newsletter, he was one of the individuals that was up for de-
portation. Before they were able to deport him, death overtook him.
And then in connection with that, I want you to look at the copy of
the document (dated November 22, 1954) from the First Federal Sav-
ings & Loan Association of Pittsburgh, Evelyn Abelson, executrix of
the estate of Morris Seder, Evelyn Abelson, 5725 Phillips Avenue,
Pittsburgh, Pa.
Look at these and tell us, first of all, who was this Morris Seder;
secondly, if you were the one that prepared this news release with
reference to him ; and, third, whether or not you served as adminis-
tratrix of his estate.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 243 and 244," see appendix, pp.
7504, 7505.)
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. How much money is indicated there in the estate of
Morris Seder ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did you make an accounting to the court for the disposi-
tion of the funds in the estate of Morris Seder ?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Xow I have still another.
It is an original document, typewritten but very heavily edited in
ink. This is part of the documentary material which has come into
the possession of the committee in a lawful, legal manner, pursuant to
legal process.
"This man is sentenced to death by the Walter- McCarran Act!"
It tells all about the "pathetic" case. It tells all about what every-
one is supposed to do.
"WE MUST ACT TODAY TO KEEP THE SANTES FAMILY TOGETHER !
We urge that you discuss this case in your trade union, fraternal or religious
groups * * * Write to Attorney General * * * Write to your Congressman * * *
Repeal this Act.
Tell this committee while you are under oath whether you are the
one that was preparing this leaflet, to save this country from fascism,
from destroying the Constitution, all of these horrible things that
were being clone by the Walter-JMcCarran Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 245a, b," see appendix, pp. 7506,
7507.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 64 1 )
Miss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. I have still another document I want to invite j'our
attention to. It is called The Investigators. It has a picture of a man
and someone else pointing a finger at him. I assume in Communist
lingo it is a stool pigeon doing all of this. It is published by the
National Education T'ommittee, Jewisli People's Fraternal Order,
TWO, by Lewis Allan. This is a skit, all about how horrible it is in
these days for people who are innocent of any Communist affiliations
and connections to be falsely accused, and, I could say parenthetically,
to lose their jobs.
See if you can recognize that skit, and tell us whether or not your
colleagues in western Pennsylvania produced that job.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 2-i6,"' see appendix, pp. 7508-
7517.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
]\Iiss Abelsox. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. I have still another letter or two here that I want you
to identify for us, so you can serve your Government. Here is an-
other letter addressed to "Dear Evelyn," from Abner, January 4,
1955, Abner Green, executive secretary of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Dear Evelyx : It looks to me like a good New Year's resolution. Keep it up.
Sorry to hear about Wolfe.
On Tolsti, will wait to see the decision. Off-hand, my feeling is that he should
do nothing-, mainly because they can do nothing to him and there is nothing
really, I imagine, a lawyer couid do for him.
Will send the tiles this week.
Coxild you please fill out the enclosed questionnaire on Tom Bliller and return
it to us ?
As soon as you set a date for your conference, please let us know. I imagine
that Harriet may be through Pittsburgh at that time. (I leave for the west
coast on February 2.5th.)
And so forth.
Look at that letter and see if you can verify the authenticity of it.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arexs (continuing) :
If the tour, about which I wrote to you yesterday, works out and you raise
$.50 for that, we can throw in this second visit for the same money.
See if you recognize that letter from your friend Abner Green.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
(See "Exhibit No. 34," appendix, p. 7143.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arexs. You have, in the course of the last several years, par-
ticipated in a number of national conferences; have you not?
]\Iiss Abelsox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. "Were you present at the national conference of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, when Abner
Green told the executive committee of that Communist-controlled
organization that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born had created 100 organizations in 15 key States, all designed for
the purpose of undermining and destroying the Walter-McCarran
immigration law?
]\Iiss Abei.sox. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. I will just show you a few of these national conference
proceedings. We won't encumber the record with all of them.
6412 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Here is a summary of proceedino;s of a Chicago conference, tlie Xa-
tional Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend
Its Victims (December 12-13, 1953). According to these proceedings,
Evelyn Abelson brought greetings from Pittsburgh. Look at that
and tell us whether or not you were the one that brought the greetings
from Pittsburgh.
(See exhibit V, appendix, pp. 8337-8371.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Here is a national conference — and I think it is very
important, and I think that if you would just answer one question on
this you could serve your Government — here is a National Conference
To Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans (December 11-12,
1954), and here is a report to that conference in New York City, of
December 1954, by Abner Green, executive secretary, the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
In this conference, as I say, he reports that there are today about
100 organizations in 15 key States which have been taken over, created,
or controlled by the Communist Party for the purpose of destroying
the McCarran- Walter Act. Now, just tell us whether or not you were
at that conference and you heard that report.
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Aeens. All right.
Here is the official document of this conference in which your name
appears, in which you bring greetings from Pittsburgh, Evelyn Abel-
son, of Pittsburgh, That is the conference in December of 1954, in
New York. Look at that document and tell us whether or not that
refreshes your recollection.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, and I have
avoided doing so because of the time element, that these documents to
which we have been alluding be appropriately marked and incorpo-
rated in this record.
Mr. Willis. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now just another question or two, and then we will be
finished. This is with reference to your present employment. Was
your present job obtained for you by a person known by you to be
a member of the Communist Party ?
I want to say, so this record is absolutely clear, I have no knowledge
on this subject at all.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. My present job wasn't obtained for me by anybody.
I obtained it myself, and I have not
Mr. Arens. I am very glad to hear that. I am glad this record
reflects this. I don't want anything that I have said here to indicate
that I have any knowledge that this school up there is bad in any
sense, because I don't know.
Did you have any discussion with your employers at this school,
where these girls are, respecting your past affiliations with any
organizations?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6413
Miss Abelsox. Although I don't liave to answer tliat question, I
would want to, because I want to say that I have not discussed my
past affiliations with my employer, and I want to say that certainly I
would think that it is a constitutional right that people are allowed
to hold private their own political beliefs, and I have held that right
private; that what my political beliefs are, are my own, and my own
beliefs.
Mr. Arens. Aside from political beliefs, did you discuss with them
any conspiratorial activities of yourself in the Communist Party?
Miss Abelson. Certainly not. I have not discussed any beliefs,
any personal beliefs, of mine, whatsoever.
Mr. Arens. And did you make known to them the fact that you
were executive secretary of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Abelson. I don't w^ant to make any admissions, and I don't
want to make any statements here about any affiliations
Mr. Arens. Did you give them your previous employment?
Miss Abelson. But I want to state clearly — no, I did not.
Mr. Arens. You did not give tliem your previous employment?
Miss Abelson. No, I did not.
Mr. Velde. Do you mean to say that you are under the illusion
that the Communist Party is a political party '?
Miss Abelson. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Willis. Let me say that I am glad counsel asked that last ques-
tion about your employer, and he very frankly said we had no knowl-
edge about their activities.
Mr. Velde. I feel. Mr. Chairman, that the record should reflect
that the committee feels that the testimony which has been given by
this witness should not reflect upon the integrity of the institution
by whicli this witness is employed.
Mr. Willis. You are absolutely right. On the other hand, as far
as this committee is concerned, our job is to continually study the
operations and machinations of the Communist conspiracy wherever
it leads us, and w^hoever might be affected thereby, including the
present witness and the others we have called and will continue to
call. It is not an inquiry into any particular facet of our society. We
go wherever the testimony leads us. Let the chips fall where they
may.
The subcommittee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock,
(Whereupon, the subcommittee recessed at 12 : 25 p. m., to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day.)
(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis and
Velde.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1956
(2 p. m. Present at the convening of the afternoon session : Repre-
sentatives Willis and Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will call his next witness.
Mr. Arens. Bessie Steinberg, kindly come forward.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
6414 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
Mill be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Miss Steinberg. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS BESSIE STEINBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL. HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Miss Steinberg. My name is Bessie Steinberg. My residence is
No. 6 Wellsford Street, Pittsburgh, Pa. As to my employment, I wish
to claim the fifth amendment for the reason that the counsel has
indicated that he considers the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born a subversive organization, and I do not
wish to admit or deny any association with that organization.
Mr. Arens. How did you happen to mention the Western Pennsyl-
vania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in response to the
question as to your employment? What prompted that to come to
your mind ?
Miss Steinberg. That is on my subpena, sir.
Mr. Arens. I see. Well, now, this subpena is a subpena duces
tecum, is it not, Miss Steinberg ?
Miss Steinberg. Yes, it is.
Mr. Arens. Incidentally, you are represented by counsel ?
Miss Steinberg. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Schlesinger. I am Hymen Schlesinger. I would like to ask if
this microphone is turned on during consultation between counsel and
client. There are many conversations
Mr. Arens. Just put your hands over it.
Mr. ScHivESiNGER. I am wondering whether or not it would be taken
down by this microphone or ixnj of them and taken down on ta]:)e. I
think the consultations between counsel and client are privileged.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the committee if there is any
possibility that the conversations or consultations between counsel
and client are being recorded over any microphone here.
Mr. AViLLis. That is a question of physics. If you do not like it,
turn it off, as far as I am concerned. How can I rule such a possi-
bility? There is no such intent.
Mr. Arens. Please tell the committee, have you produced the
records which are called for in the subpena which was served upon
you ?
]\f iss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you the executive secretary of the Western Pennsyl-
vania Committe for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. Mr. Counsel, you may put your hand on the micro-
phone. I am sure if there is anything audible, I have not heard it.
Mr. Schlesinger. It isn't a question of whether there is anything
audible. But it is a question of there are four microphones at the
table. Some microphones are so sensitive they can pick up a whisper
at the end of the room. This particular microphone which Your
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6415
Honor has directed me to turn off may physically be turned off. But
that does not answer as to what the character of the microphones at
the counsel table is here with reference to these other three.
Mr. Arexs. Miss Steinberg, I would like to invite your attention
to certain documents. The first is a contract of rental (dated
April 30, 1956) between the Western Pennsylvania Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and the Union Real Estate Co., of Pitts-
burgh. This contract of rental bears the signature of the executive
secretary' of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, and the signature affixed there is that of Bessie Stein-
berg. Please look at this document w^hich Mr. Appell will exhibit
to you, and see if you can't help the committee by verifying the
authenticity of that document?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 247," see appendix, p. 7518.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Wlio was the lady you were just speaking to in the
hearing room about a minute or so before you actually were sworn
as a witness ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. She was your predecessor in the Western Pennsyl-
vania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born; wasn't she?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us the name of the witness who preceded
3'ou at the witness stand ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. You kuow who that was. That was Evelyn Abelson;
was it not?
Miss Steinberg. I claim tlie first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you tell this committee truth-
fully whether or not you know Evelyn Abelson you would be supply-
ing information that could be used against you — —
Miss Steinberg. I will claim the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wait until I complete the question.
I will start over again. Do you honestly feel that if you told this
committee while you are under oath whether or not you know Evelyn
Abelson you would be supplying information which might be used
against you in a criminal ])roceeding ?
Miss Steinberg. I am saying that I am claiming the right of free
speech and association, and I am claiming the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis, You are directed to answer the question.
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr, Arens. I would like to invite your attention to aiiother docu-
ment. It is a photostatic copy of The Lamp (February- April 1956,
p, 3) of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
setting forth the various committees of that organization, and the
activities of the various organizations affiliated with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. I see here in this docu-
ment the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born on March 25, 1956, held a testimonial dinner for the attorneys
6416 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
for the committee, and I would like to ask you to look at that and tell
us whether or not a^ou were in attendance at that session.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 248," see appendix, p. 7519.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. ]\lr. Chairman, in view of the state of this record
in which we have caused the record to reflect the signature of this
witness on a rental agreement identified as executive secretary of the
Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, I
ask that she now be ordered to produce the documents called for in
the subpena duces tecum which was served on her.
Mr. Willis. You are ordered to produce the documents listed on
the subpena.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. Since I am ordered to do so, I will produce them,
but I do it under protest, and I do it under protest on the grounds
that I stated in my petition or motion to quash this very subpena in
the Federal district court.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly turn those over, now, to Mr. Donald
Appell of this committee?
And, ]Mr. Appell, as you receive them, will you mark them as
exhibits?
Where did you get these documents?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are these the documents of the Western Pennsylvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Miss Steinberg. I claim
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. That is precisely
what the subpena calls for. She is now trying to purge herself of
contempt of the committee by producing certain documents.
Mr. Willis. AMiat is the pending question?
Mr. Arens. The question is, Are these documents which she has
just turned over to the committee the documents of the Western
Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. WiiXiis. You are ordered to answer that question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. Since this organization, as I said before, has been
designated by the counsel as subversive, I feel I must claim the fifth
amendment. And in connection with — that is, in connection with any
relationship to that organization.
Mr. Arens. The outstanding question is are these documents docu-
ments of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
That is precisely what the subpena calls for and that is precisely
what you have to produce in order to purge yourself of contempt
of this committee.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I have produced these on the order of the com-
mittee and the documents speak for themselves.
Mr. Arens. IMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the record now
show an order and direction to the witness to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. You are ordered, for the final time, to answer that
question. It is very vital. It is very material.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6417
Miss Steinberg. Does the chairman recognize the point that I
made in relation to my chiim for the lifth amendment and the ground
on which I claim it?
Mr. Willis. That is not the question. The question is a simple
one. . . ,
Miss Steixberg. I would ask you, sir, whether ii isn t true that
the organization, the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, has not been designated as a subversive organization
at this hearing, and, therefore, whether I do not have the right to
protect myself against self-incrimination by claiming the tifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arexs. So this record is complete, let me say that Mr. Abram
Flaxer. of the United Public Workers, has been convicted, and his
conviction is on appeal on this very issue. We don't want to take
advantage of you. But if you do not respond that these documents
which you have transmitted to this committee are the documents
called for in the subpena, you i-un the risk of facing the same situation
as Mr. Abram Flaxer. He has been convicted on this very issue.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, while she is conferring with the coun-
sel. I respectfully suggest that these documents which have been
transmitted by this witness to the conmiittee, and which Mr. Appell
is currently marking, be ordered incorporated in this record either by
reference or in the appendix.
Mr. Willis. It is so ordered.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 249-259," see appendix, pp.
7520-7539.)
Miss Steinberg. The question that was asked me is a catchall ques-
tion. It covers all of the material that was submitted. I will ansv»^er
as to each piece of material that was submitted.
Mr. Arens. Did you produce before the committee the letters and
copies of letters, and correspondence, between the Western Penn-
sylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Miss Steinberg. I ]3roduced all of the material that I could in
answer to the subpena duces tecum.
Mr. Arens. Have you produced the excerpts of all the minutes and
meetings of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I produced all of the material I was able to produce
in answer to the subpena.
Mr. Arens. What was the limitation upon your ability to produce
some of it ?
Miss Steinberg. Tliere was no limitation on my ability to produce
whatever material I could produce.
Mr. Arens. Do you have some more material in your possession
and custody in the courtroom noAA'
Miss Steinberg. I do not.
Mr. Arens. Of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I do not.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
6418 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Miss Steinberg, Reuben J. Hardin testified in Jiuie of
last year under oath that he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying
or was he telling the truth ?
(The Avitness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss S'rEiNBERG. Xot only he but also Matthew Cvetic and Joseph
Mazzei testified
Mr. Arbxs. Just tell us now if they told the truth when they
identified you a- a Communist.
Miss Steixbkrg. One of them is a mental case and one of them is
a liar, so-called by the Attorney General of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not Eeuben J. Hardin
lied when he identified you as a Communist.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I think just as in the case of Mazzei, it is for the
courts to decide whether Mr. Hardin is telling the truth or not. As
to mj answer here to the committee, I will have to claim the privilege
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are not under compulsion to claim anything now.
Just tell this committee whether or not Mr. Hardin told the truth
when he said under oath that he knew you as a Communist.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I have answered the question. I have claimed the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cvetic, I see you are in the hearing room. Will
you stand up back there ?
Now, Miss Steinberg, is this the man that you just condemned a
few moments ago ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is this the man that swore that he knew you as a
Communist ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel you would be supplying infor-
mation which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding if
you answered that question ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment. The fifth amend-
ment protects me against self-incrimination.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Steve Murin ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. And do you know Evelyn Abelson ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment, and the first amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Where did you get the exhibits which you have just
transferred to the custody of the committee?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you get them at your hon.ie ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who are the officers of the Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
^Ir. Arens. Where do you have j^our office during the course of the
day ?
Miss S'raiNBEHG. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where was this subpena served upon you ; do you recall ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6419
Miss Steixberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, at this point, I respectfully suggest
that the record rejflect that this part of the subpena duces tecruu be
incorporated in the record, which reflects that the subpena was served
upon this witness at 806 Renshaw Building, Pittsburgh, Pa., and I
have in my hand now a document which I ask to be incorporated in
the record', the business-reply envelope of the "Western Pennsylvania
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, 806 Kenshaw Building,
Pittsburgh, Pa.
Would you look at this business-reply envelope and tell the com-
mittee whether or not that accurately identifies the business address
of the "Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 260a, b and 261," see appendix,
pp. 7540-7542.)
( The witness conferred with her counsel. )
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Xow, I see liere among these exhibits which you have
transferred to the committee, "Gus Santes Deportation Frameu.p Ex-
posed.'" Was the case against Gus Santes all a frameup ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arexs. This is the leaflet of the Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Miss Steinberg. Speaking from my own knowledge of what I have
read in the local newspapers, my opinion is that it is.
Mr. Arens. Xow, do you have any other knowledge of the Santes
case?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. Yes. You opened the door. You are directed to answer
the question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I only testified as to my knowledge of what I read
in the newspapers. That is the only thing I can testify to.
Mr. Arens. And do yon have any other knowledge of the Santes
case ?
Miss Steinberg. I am claiming the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell is going to display to you an exliibit wliich
you gave to the committee. In this exhibit we see a call for people to
Avrite their Congressmen, a list of certain Congressmen who were to be
contacted, to "end the menace" of the Walter-McCarran law, all under
the auspices of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. Tell us, did you prepare that leaflet ?
(Tlie witness conferred with her coimsel.)
Miss Steinberg. The leaflet, as I see it, is a reprint of newspaper
articles.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Did you prepare it ?
Miss S'raiNBERG. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a document which you have pre-
sented to the committee, addressed "Dear Senator," by Jack Sartislcy,
of the Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, urging that the Senator, and I assume other recipients of this
document, participate in memorializing Congress to repeal the pro-
6420 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
visions of tlie McCarran-Walter Act, certain provisions of the Mc-
Carran- Walter Act. Look at that document and see if you can help us,
and tell us who is the man that wrote that document.
(See exhibit No. 255, appendix, p. 7532.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Still another docmnent I have here which you turned
over to us is a call for a national conference on immigration matters,
under the auspices of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. This national conference is to be held, according to
this document, in Detroit, Mich., December 10 and 11. Did you attend
that session ? That is 1055. Did you attend that session ?
(See exhibits Nos. 258a, b, appendix, pp. 7537, 7538.)
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have here a pamphlet which you have just pro-
duced to the committee — remember, the subpena calls for all docu-
ments of the Western Pennsylvania Committee but this happened to
be in this group that you sent to us — The Inhumanity of the Walter-
McCarran Daw, a pamphlet for 25 cents, all under the authorship
of Abner Green.
Another, The Walter-McCarran Law, Police State Terror Against
the Foreign Born Americans, by Abner Green.
Another one by Abner Green, In Defense of the. Eight To Defend
Foreign Born Americans.
Here is another one : The Man Is Sentenced to Death by the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act.
Doesn't this show you that the Western Pennsylvania Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born must have some connection with
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the national legislative conference of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in Wash-
ington, D. C, on March 27, 1955 ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. According to these documents wliich you have turned
over to the committee, there was such a conference. And then was
there a conference, the National Conference of Defense Committees,
in New York City (June 18-20, 1954; June 10, 11, 12, 1955), under
the auspices of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, all for the purpose of defending the rights of the foreign born ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Was there another one, another conference in New
York in 1954, "The racist aspects of the Waltei--McCarran law''? It
is a conference in New York (June 18, 19, 20, 1954). Did you attend
that one ?
Miss Steinberg. On all questions in connection with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Miss Steinberg. I said in connection with all questions concerning
the American Committee for the Proitection of Foreign Born, I must
claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6421
Mr. Akens. Can you tell us whether or not you were in attendance
at these conferences^
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You feel that if you told us whether or not you were
in attendance at these conferences, you might be supplying information
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding; is that
correct ?
Miss Steinberg. I am claiming the fifth amendment.
Mr. Akens. You didn't attend these conferences as an undercover
agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ; did you ?
Miss Steinberg. Why did you ask a question like that?
Mr. Arens. Now I see here something I hadn't known about before
on this activity, a joint forum of Baltic- Americans on the Walter-
McCarran immigration and naturalization law held January 8, 1956,
in Xew York City, all under the auspices of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
There is a campaign bulletin here calling for repeal of the Walter-
McCarran Act.
Can you tell us, what these groups are, these Baltic-American
groups that were called together under the auspices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Miss Steinberg. I told you, sir, that in connection with the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of ForeigTi Born, I feel I must claim
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Then let's get on to another subject for the moment.
I have here a letterhead that you have turned over to us of the Na-
tional Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend
Its Victims, held in Chicago (December 12 and 13, 1953). Did you
attend that conference?
(See exhibit No. 259, appendix, p. 7539.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have here a petition on "Repeal the Walter-McCarran
law. We, the undersigned, call upon the United States Senate and
House of Representatives to" do certain things with reference to the
Walter-]\IcCarran law. Did you get up this leaflet ?
(See exhibit No. 250, appendix, p. 7522.)
Miss Steinberg. I don't know what you are talking about.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the preparation of this leaflet?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. This is from the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have here a bulletin which you have turned over
to us.
STATE LEGISLATURES.
The Walter-McCarran Law is Federal legislation adopted by tlie United
States Congress * * * State and local legislators, however, can make important
contributions to the fiftht to repeal or amend the Walter-McCarran Law. This
can be done by the legislature adopting a MEMORIAL TO CONGRESS, or
perhaps a special resolution to memorialize Congress.
It calls upon the recipients of this to take action now, and (here
are enclosed, curiously, resolutions which were introduced in the
Commonw^ealth of Massachusetts, the City Council of Philadelphia,
the New York State Assembly, the New Jersey State Senate, and the
Pennsylvania State House of Rej)resentatives.
(See exhibit No. Ga, appendix, p. 7091.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 19
6422 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Now, -why don't you serve your Government by telling your Govern-
ment -what knowledge, if any, you have of the participation of the
Communist conspiracy in undertaking to procure the enactment of
these resolutions?
Miss Steinberg. I am afraid I don't understand that question.
Mr. Arens. An right. We will take it one by one.
IMiss Steinberg. All right.
Mr. Arens. Are j^ou aware of the fact that the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born has participated in trying to get
resolutions through State legislatures and city councils, memorializ-
ing Congress to repeal the McCarran-Walter Act?
JNIiss Steinberg. Is there anything wrong in that ?
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question. If there isn't anytliing
wrong, why don't you tell us that you are aware of it.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
^liss Steinberg. Well, the reason I asked is because you are asking
questions about revision and repeal activities. I want to know
whether that is considered subversive.
Mr. Arens. What we want to know is what part the Communist
conspiracy has had in this drive. That is what we are trying to
develop here.
Miss Steinberg. To revise and repeal legislation ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, by th? Commim'Stf
Miss Steinberg. Do you mean that is considered subversive activ-
ity?
Mr. Arens. Yes, by the Communists.
Miss Steinberg. It is?
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. The activity of the Communist operation
in this country is subversive. We want to know what part that sub-
versive network has had in undertaking to subvert the security pro-
gram of this Government. That is why you are here.
IMiss Steinberg. I have to take issue with you on that, sir. I think
anybody, regardless of his political beliefs, opinions, affiliations, has a
right to petition their government for a redress of grievances, and that
includes
Mr. Arens. And the American people have a right to laiow what
the Communists are doing in this regard.
Miss Steinberg. And that includes the right of petition or repeal
for revision of any law, including the Walter-McCarran law.
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. You are perfectly right about that. Now
you just tell us what you have done to cause the repeal or amendment
of tlie Walter-McCarran law. You tell us that. You have a perfect
right to do that. Tell us what you have done.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Steinberg. As to my activities, I am going to claim the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Ari'.ns. Of course you are.
Mr. Velde. Whj'^ do you claim the fifth amendment when you say
it is not illegal to petition for redress of gi-ievances?
IMiss Steinberg. Because certain organizations have been termed
as subversive.
Mr. Velde. You have just admitted that it could not possibly lead
you to any criminal prosecution. Why can't you answer now ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6423
Miss Steinberg. Counsel said that. I don't agree witli counsel, but
counsel said that.
Mr. Velde. You said yourself there is nothing wrong m petitioning
for redress of grievances.
]\liss Steinberg. There isn't anything wrong, but I respectfully
submit that if counsel says that certain organizations that have con-
ducted repeal or revision activities are subversive, then I must claim
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is the "Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protectioiv
of Foreign Born Commimist controlled ?
]\Iiss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have another leaflet here, The Walter-McCarraii
Law — Strait Jacket for American Liberties, by the New York Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. Tell us how you hap])ened to
have that leaflet in western Pennsylvania, of the New York Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born. Is there some relationship be-
tween your organization and the New York committee?
(See exhibit No. 114a, b, appendix, pp. 7296, 7297.)
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment.
JNIr. Arens. Now without telling any organizations in response to
this question, with wixich you may be identified, just tell the number
of conferences you have been in in the course of the last year or two,
for the purpose of causing changes in the ^Valter-McCarran law.
Miss SiTiiNBERG. 1 iiave to claim the fifth amendment on that for
the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Have you been in such conferences ?
Miss Steinberg. And the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have }■ on been in sucli conferences ?
Miss Steinberg. I must claim the first and fifth amendments.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you have any employment from which you receive
an income?
Miss Steinberg. I have to claim the fifth amendment on that
question.
JMr. Arens. How long have you known your lawyer?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever served the Communist Party M'ith him ?
Miss Steinberg. I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Sciilesinger. I must object. I think that is an attack on the
right of counsel, Mr. Chairman, and I want to record the objection for
the record.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Counsel will have an opportunity to be sworn in
a little while.
AVe will see about that in a few moments. Counsel.
Mr. Sciilesinger. 1 will certainly be glad to be sworn, but I still
want to object.
Mr. Arens. We want you to be just as vociferous, to be just as fluid,
and talk just as forthrightly in a few moments when you are under
oath as you do now when you are not under oatli.
Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velpe. I have just a question or two.
Miss Steinberg, you filed a motion to quash the service of subpena,
as I understand it, in Pennsylvania?
Miss Steinberg. Yes.
6424 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. Where was that filed ?
Miss Steinberg. In the Federal district court, the third circuit.
Mr. Velde. "Wliat was the outcome of that ?
Miss Steinberg. The motion was denied.
Mr. Velde. Thank you. That is all.
Mr. Willis. Tlie net effect of the ruling of the court was that the
Federal court sustained the right of this committee to compel you to
bring these documents.
That was the net result?
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. I assume that is a fair interpretation and the
court's language.
Mr. Velde. And, therefore, do you believe in our Federal court
system ?
Miss Steinberg. I certainly do, sir.
Mr. Velde. And the Federal court denied your motion?
Miss Steinberg. They did.
Mr. Velde. Then why did you not bring in all the records which
were subpenaed ?
IMiss Steinberg. I did. I did, sir. I submitted them.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if j^ou please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Mr. Hymen Schlesinger.
Mr. Schlesinger, would you kindly raise your right hand and be
sworn ? _ .
Mr. Willis. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I do.
TESTIMONY OP HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Schlesinger. My name is Hymen Schlesinger. I live at Kural
Delivery 6, Butler. I have an ofHce for the practice of law in the city
of Pittsburgh, Pa.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena that
v.'as served upon you, Mr. Schlesinger?
Mr. Schlesinger, That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that there are
pending proceedings against me in which I have claimed the rifth
amendment as to that very question, in view of the fact that certain
paid professional informers, such as Joseph Mazzei and Matthew
Cvetic have stated that I am a Communist, I am claiming ihe fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is one of these persons that has accused you a person
by the name of George E. Dietze?
Mr. Schlesinger. There was such a person that appeared as a
witness against me.
Mr. Arens. And did he testify that he knew 3-ou as a member of
the Communist conspiracy?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6425
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. Mr. Cliairiiian, I think it would be unfair to
disclose the details
Mr. Arens. You started it. You opened the door. Answer the
question whether or not Dietze identified you as a Communist.
]Mr. SciiLEsiNGER. AVell, Mr. Chairman, I stated the reason
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not
Dietze identified him, Schlesinger, as a Communist.
Mr. Willis. You are an expert lawyer in this field, and you made
a certain remark for your protection, and you have opened the door.
You cannot shield yourself from this. You talked about paid in-
formers for the record, and for the effect, and you opened the door.
Of all lawyers, you know the result.
Mr. Schlesinger. I did not identify the proceeding. I simply
stated what is a matter of public record in the newspapers.
Mr. Arens. Is Dietze one of the men who identified you as a Com-
munist ?
That question is outstanding and I respectfully suggest he be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Schlesinger. If the committee directs me, I will have to
answer, but I want to say that I did not identifj^ the particular pro-
ceeding. As a matter of fact, I did not have any particular proceeding
in mind.
Mr. Arens. Now answer the question.
Mr. Schlesinger. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Willis. Is there an outstanding suggestion for an order?
Mr. Arens. The question was whether or not Mr. Dietze was one
of the witnesses who identified this man as a Communist, and he has
invoked the fifth amendment.
Now, when Dietze identified you as a Communist, was he lying or
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I must invoke the fifth amendment on that
question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment a Communist ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I wish to invoke the fifth amendment and the
first amendment and the sixth amendment, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Veij3e. Mr. Schlesinger, a minute ago you mentioned a paid
informer by the name of Matt Cvetic that accused you, or something
or other. Did he accuse you of being a Communist ?
Mr. Schlesinger. Well, does the committee direct me to answer
that question ?
Mr. Arens. You aie supposed to answer all the questions.
Mr. Willis. Did you just so testify ?
Mr. Velde. You stated it yourself. You opened the door to it.
Mr. Sciflesinger. No, I stated the grounds upon which I was
claiming the fifth amendment; in view of what is public information,
in view of what is a matter of public record, where the newspapers
have carried the stories. I am not stating anything that is not a mat-
ter of record, and stating that in view of all this publicity and public
record, I am claiming the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. You are confusing public records with newspaper
reports.
Mr. Schlesinger. Well, both.
6426 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. Did Matt Cvetic under oath ever accuse you of being
a Communist Party member?
Mr. SciiLESiXGER. Does Your Honor — does the committee direct
me to answer that question?
Mr. Arexs. You are supposed to answer all the questions.
Mr. ScHLESiXGER. I am claiming the fifth amendment. I stated the
basis upon which the claim was made.
Mr. Vei.de. I request that he be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Willis. I direct you to answer the question, because in your
opening statement — and we can look back at this record — you said
nothing about newspapers. You said in view of certain pending
proceedings, and you did not identify them, and the fact that certain
paid informers, including So-and-So, you had to take the fifth amend-
ment. You are the one that said it, so I now order you to answer
the question.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Chairman, the newspapers have carried the
stories that Matt Cvetic has testified against me in several proceedings,
in each of which he has accused me of being a member of the Com-
nuniist Party. Those proceedings include, as matters of public record
which the whole w'orld knows, congressional hearings and other pro-
ceedings, which it is not necessary for me to name.
Mr. Arexs. Now, w^as he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. ScHLESixGER. I claim the fifth amendment and the sixth
amendment.
Mr. Arexs. You had a young lady sitting beside you a moment ago,
Miss Bessie Steinberg. Did you ever serve in the Communist Party
with her ?
Mr. ScTiLESiXGER. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. And a few moments ago you had seated beside you a
lady by the name of Evelyn Abelson. Did you ever serve in the
Communist Party with her ?
Mr. Schlesixger. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know the young lady who was sitting beside
you a moment ago ?
Mr. Schlesixger. That sounds like a trap question. I will have
to claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Velde. As a lawyer, how can you possibly claim that that is a
trap question, to ask wdiether you know a certain individual?
Mr. Schlesixger. Counsel is trying to open the door. As a matter
of fact, if I were to admit that I know any of these people, then that
would be the takeoff point on which this committee would begin to
crucify me. I have been under a severe attack in the city of Pittsburgh
for representing these people. All of these cases I have handled, I
have done at great expense, great loss, and a great sacrifice to me. The
whole bar has shied away from accepting cases involving Communists.
I think 1 am fulfilling the highest traditions of the profession of law
in sujDplying counsel to these people when they can't get it anywhere
else.
Mr. "\^''illis. That is a fine speech, but it does not answer the question.
Mr. Schlesixger. What is the question. Your Honor?
Mr. Velde. You say Miss Abelson is a Communist and that is the
reason you are not going to admit you are acquainted with her ?
Mr. Schlesixger. I don't recall having made that statement.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6427
Mr. Arexs. You have lauded j^ourself here for representing these
people as a lawyer. Was your representation of these people at the
direction or suggestion of the Communist conspiracy
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. "Well, in the first place, Mr, Counsel
Mr. Akexs. Or by any person known by you to be a member of
the conspiracy ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. In the first place, Mr, Counsel, I have not lauded
myself for representing them. It is a duty which I have accepted
willingly.
Mr. Arens. You are discharging this duty by coincidence in the
fulfillment of a suggestion by people who are in the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. It is a duty which I
Mr. Arens. Just answer that question. Are you representing these
people at the direction of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Schlesinger. If you will let me answer it in my own way, I
will be glad to answer it. If the counsel wants me to answer it in his
way
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee whether or not you are repre-
senting these people at the behest and at the direction of the Com-
munist Party. You can answer that question.
Mr. Schlesinger. Are you referring to the people for whom I have
been appearing today ?
Mr. Arens. Let's start with them. That is a good starting place.
Mr. Schlesinger. All right. What is your question ?
Mr. Arens. Are you representing them at the direction of a person
known by you to be a Communist ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I am representing each of them at his or her own
individual request and as my duty as a lawyer, and member of the bar.
Mr. Arens. Have you been requested to represent anyone here
today by a person who, to your certain knowledge, is a Communist?
Mr. Schlesinger. I make no inquiry of anybody's political beliefs,
Mr, Chairman, The only
Mr, Arens, I am not asking about anybody's political beliefs. I am
asking whether or not your representation of these people here today
is or has been at the solicitation of a person whom you know to be
a Communist,
Mr, Schlesinger. IMr. Counsel, it seems to mc that this badgering
has one effect
Mr. Arens. There is no badgering. It is just evasive action on your
part. Tell this committee whether or not you
Mr. Schlesinger. I have stated to the committee that I am repre-
senting each one of these people at his request.
Mr. Arens, Yes ; and how many
Mr, ScHiJssiNGER. Wait a moment. And if I am going to be criti-
cized or attacked for my representing them, no lawyer in Ohio or
Pennsylvania or elsewhere will undertake the representation of these
people, and it will be a denial of the right of counsel.
Mr. Arens. You know as Avell as I do there has been no criticism
against you for representing these people. The query is: Is your
representation at the behest of a person known by you to be a
Communist?
Mr. Schlesinger. I think that is an unwarranted inference. It
carries
6428 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Answer it anyway.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. I don't Know. I make no inquiry of their political
beliefs.
Mr. Arens. Let's take them one by one. Do you know whether
your client, Evelyn Abelson, is a Communist, and did you know it
when she asked you to represent her ?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER, The simplest answer I can ^ve you is that that
question is in violation of a right
Mr. Arens. That question is not in violation of any right. You
tell this committee whether or not you know Evelyn Abelson is a
Communist.
Mr. Schlesinger. I was going to finish. It is a violation of the
right of counsel. But I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. In other words, if you told this committee whether or
not you know that your client, Evelyn Abelson, is a member of the
Communist conspiracy, you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Schlesinger. In view of what you, yourself, have stated, Mr.
Counsel, the answer is obvious. Of course.
Mr. Arens. Of course, you could be prosecuted criminally ?
Mr. Schlesinger. On the basis of what you said. I do not admit
it is true.
Mr. Arens. Do you deny Evelyn Abelson is a member of the com-
munist conspiracy ?
Mr. Schlesinger. I make no admission or denial. I have claimed
on the basis of the first, fifth, and sixth amendments, the right to
represent them without any attack or criticism on the part of you or
anybody else.
Mr. Arens. Now, I want to direct your attention to a document,
referring to the National Civil Rights Legislative Conference held in
Washington in 1949. Look at that document and tell us whether or
not you were a participant in that conference.
(Documents marked "Exhibits No. 262a-d," see appendix, pp. 7543-
7546.)
Mr. Schlesinger. This doesn't ring a bell with me, Mr. Chairman,
but I want to say that I would like to claim the first and fifth amend-
ments with reference to any activity of the Civil Rights Conference,
or Civil Rights Congress, in view of what has been stated today about
the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Arens. Irrespective of how bad the Civil Rights Conference
is, if you haven't been connected with it, you certainly don't suggest
to this committee that you have a right to invoke the fifth amendment
with reference to any questions concerning the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Schlesinger. You asked me if I simply attended that confer-
ence.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schlesinger. That appears to be a pamphlet relating to a
public gathering sponsored by the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Arens. That is right. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schlesinger. I do not have any recollection of it.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Schlesinger. But, at the same time, I want to say that I neither
admit nor deny, but in view of what has been stated about the Civil
Rights Congress, I do claim the protection of the first and fifth
amendments.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6429
Mr. Willis. What has been stated?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. That the Civil Rights Congress is a subversive
organization, Your Honor.
Mr. Willis. Is it true?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I claim the first and fifth amendments on that.
Mr. Velde. By whom has it been stated to be subversive?
Mr. ScHu:siNGER. By counsel this morning.
Mr. Velde. By whom else do you know it has been stated to be a
subversive organization ?
Mr, ScHLEsiNGER. I think counsel is the only one that has made
the statement today, but the newspaper has carried stories that the
Attorney General has cited this organization.
Mr. Velde. You know that the Attorney General has cited this
organization ?
Mr. SoHLEsiNGER. I have read newspaper stories on that, Your
Honor, and so have you.
Mr. Velde. You know the Un-American Activities Committee has
cited it?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I think I saw a newspaper report about that,
Your Honor, and I think you made a statement about the Civil Rights
Congress which has been published in the press.
Mr. Arfjsts. Are you presently a member of the National Lawyers
Guild?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. In view of the fact that the National Lawyers
Guild, according to the newspapers, and according to the United
States Supreme Court, has been cited by the Attorney General under
the Internal Security Act, I claim the protection of the first and fifth
amendments, as to that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to a publication
by this committee, a report on the National Lawyers Guild, Legal
Bulwark of the Communist Party. On page 18 there, one of the
officers of the National Lawyers Guild, indeed one of the executive
board members, is listed as a Hyman Schlesinger of Pittsburgh, and
over on the next page, the very next page, the executive board, Hyman
Schlesinger, Pittsburgh. One is for the year 1949 and the other is
for the year 1950. Look at that document and see if that correctly
describes you.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Counsel, you are directing my attention to
pages 18 and 19 of this exhibit, according to what Mr. Appell handed
me?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Schlesinger. And upon which pages appears to be, under the
name of Pittsburgh, the name of Hyman Schlesinger, and on page 19
the name of Hyman Schlesinger, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Is that you?
Mr. Schlesinger. In view of the answer that I gave to the last
question, Mr. Chairman, that the National Lawyers Guild has been
cited by the Attorney General, and proceedings are now pending in
the courts, in the District of Columbia, in wliich it is alleged that the
National Lawyers Guild is a Communist-front organization, and in
view of the fact that tlie exhibit you have just handed me character-
izes the National Lawyers Guild as a legal bulwark of the Com'munist
Party, I must claim the protection of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. You don't know any other Hyman or Hymen Schles-
6430 COMINIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
inger who is a lawyer in Pittsburgh who is a member of the National
Lawyers Guild besides yourself, do you ? Is there any other Hymen
Schlesinger
jNIr. ScHLESixGER. I cau only answer tliat question this way : I am
the only Hymen Schlesinger that I know of in Pittsburgh who is a
lawyer. But as to whether or not that answer carries an inference
that I am a member of the Lawyers Guild, I will have to claim the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Aeexs. Now I would like to invite your attention, ]^Ir. Schles-
inger, to the Communist Daily Worker of August 16. 1951, Philadel-
phia Unionists Back Civil-Rights Rally, inviting labor to attend a
civil-rights rally being held Thursday evening in Reynolds Hall.
Speakers include Hymen Schlesinger, noted Pittsburgh attorney, who faces
prosecution under the Pennsylvania sedition law, and David Davis, business
representative of Local 155 UE —
And so forth. Please look at this article and tell us whether or not
you were one of the orators at this civil rights rally held in Philadel-
phia on August 16, 1951.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 263," see appendix, p. 7547.)
Mr. Schlesinger. Looking at the exhibit. Mr. Chairman, which
appears to be, according to the masthead, the Daily Worker of August
16, 1951, and in view of what has been said about the Civil Rights
Congress, and the fact that the newspapers have also carried the story
that Mr. David Davis has been convicted under the Smith Act as one
of the Philadelphia officials of the Communist Partj^, I must claim the
first and fifth amendments in response to your question.
Mr. Aeens. Have you ever been connected with the Citizens Com-
mittee To End the Stool Pigeon Racket, in Pittsburgh, Pa. ?
Mr. ScHLESiisrGER. May I see what you are referring to ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Schlesixger. I take it. Your Plonor, that there is some ques-
tion as to whether or not the "stool-pigeon racket" is accurate?
Mr. Ai;ens. Just answer the question, please.
Mr. Schlesinger. The leaflet you handed me has the signature of
the Citizens Committee To End the Stool Pigeon Racket, 212 Forbes
Building, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Now, Mr. Chairman, reading over this material, it appears to con-
tain a great deal of material about professional informers, namely
Joseph Mazzei and Matt Cvetic, both of whom have been thoroughly
discredited, the former of whom has been castigated by the Depart-
ment of Justice and the United States Supreme Court.
Mr. Arens. "V\niy don't you, then, help in discrediting Mr. Mazzei
by standing up here now while you are under oath and saying "Maz-
zei was a liar when he identified me as a Communist," and why don't
you stand up here while you are under oath and say "Matt Cvetic was
a liar when he identified me as a Communist." Wiy don't you do
that?
Mr. Schlesinger. Are you defending the stool pigeons, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. I am only asking you while you are under oath to stand
up and deny that you are a Communist, in view of the fact that three
people have identified you as a Communist?
Mr. Schlesinger. Because these people have had me arrested, these
people have made charges against me, and they will do it again. I
COaOIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6431
just don't want to go through the continual, perpetual, torment of
having to defend legal proceedings.
Mr. Arens. Is that the only reason ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. Isn't that reason enough?
Mr. Aeens. Let's see now. Is that the only reason why you don't
want to deny that
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. There is another reason I will be glad to give you.
Mr. Arens. Let me have all the reasons, now that you have started
on these reasons.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. This is the main reason.
Mr. Arens. Give us all the reasons.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I Will give you the main reason.
Mr. Chairman, I have been attacked, in my opinion, by these people
because I have accepted the representation of these unpopular minor-
ity people and groups, and lawyers in Pittsburgh have shied away
from such cases. If any lawyer who accepts these cases is ^oing to
be subject to the attacks and criticisms that I have been subjected to
today by these methods of insinuation and smear, I am certain that
no lawyer will ever offer his services to represent an unpopular
individual,
Mr. Arens. "^^Hien you were identified as a member of the legal
commission of the Communist conspiracy by people who testified un-
der oath, tell us if your failure to deny that was prompted by the
feeling that you just expressed.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. The oath of Mazzei and Cvetic, Mr. Chairman,
are very, very worthless.
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question. Is that the pnly reason you
won't take issue with Mazzei, Cvetic, and these other witnesses who
laid their liberty on the line and identified you as a member of the
legal commission of the Communist conspiracy? You just tell us.
Mr. Dietze and there are others. You just tell us while you are under
oath now, if the only reason why you won't take issue with them is
because you don't like their character or because they are what you
described as stool pigeons. Is there any other reason, any other pos-
sible reason why you won't take issue with them while you are under
oath?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. Mr. Counsel, I have given you three reasons.
Mr. Arens. Give me all the reasons. Is there any other reason
lingering in the back of your mind why you won't deny while under
oath
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. If there were no other reason but that the right
of counsel is guaranteed by the Constitution, that would be sufficient
in my judgment to justify-
Mr. Arens. Isn't the true reason that you Imow if you deny while
you are undei> oath that you are now a member of the legal commission
of the Communist Party, that you would be committing perjury and
would be sent to the penitentiary for it?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I dou't waut to get into an arg^iment with you.
I do want to sny this : These same informers will again desecrate their
oath and the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Did they desecrate their oath when they identified you
as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. If you will let me finish my answer
Mr. Arens. No ; we want to get to that point.
6432 COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. It is beneath my dignity to attempt to deny any-
thing that Mr. Cvetic and Mazzei do. I think the Supreme Court has
shown
Mr. Arens. Is it beneath your dignity to deny what Dietze said
under oath when he identified you as a Communist? Let's protect
your dignity as far as possible. Plow about Dietze? Is it beneath
your dignity to deny ? Is he a stool pigeon, too ?
Mr. ScirLESiNGER, If you use that word in reference to Mazzei and
Cvetic, I see no difference between Mr. Dietze, Mr. Mazzei, and Mr.
Cvetic. To me they are all birds of a feather.
Mr. Arens. Tell me while you are mider oath what you mean by a
stool pigeon. Is a stool pigeon one who identifies you as a Commu-
nist?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. You liave used the term. I am willing to accept
your terminology.
Mr. Arens. My terminology would be this. We have thj-ee men
who have identified vou under oath, and you tell this committee you
don't want to deny the accusation because they are stool pigeons and
it is beneath your dignity. I am asking you now to stand up like
a red-blooded American, under oath, and tell us what is the reason
you will not deny this.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I am standing up like a red-blooded Ameri-
can
Mr. Arens. All right, you have stood up, and identified youi-self
as red-blooded. Now tell us whether or not you are a member of the
Communist conspiracy.
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. I Want to say this. As far as Mazzei and Cvetic
is concerned, they are absolutely unworthy of credibility.
Mr. Arens. Did they lie when they said they knew you as a Com-
munist? Did they lie?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I liave answered that a dozen times.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Schlesinger. I wouldn't believe any of those people at all,
because they have testified a number of times, and the Department of
Justice has characterized Mazzei as unw^orthy of belief, and Mr.
Cvetic has been a mental patient in a hospital three times last year.
Mr. Arens. Did they lie when they said you were a member of the
Communist Party? Did they lie ? That is the point.
Mr. Schlesinger. The Department of Justice said that Mr. Mazzei
lies, and I think Mr. Cvetic's record speaks for itself.
Mr. Arens. Don't evade any more. You have 0])ened the door as
wide as a barn door. We can walk through it and back again, and
run a plow through it. Did Mazzei, Cvetic, and Dietze lie when they
said you were a Communist? You tell this committee that, or we
will stay here until you do.
Mr. Schlesinger. Well, I will invoke the fifth amendment since
the committee's time is very valuable,
Mr. Arens. Well, in other words, it is true, Mr. Schlesinger, that
if you told the truth now while you are under oath, as to whether or
not these three men lied, you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Schlesinger. To me that is a trap question. The only answer
I can make is that I will claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. I just finished reading cases of the Supreme Court and
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6433
I want you to answer that question now. Do you honestly apprehend,
sir, that if you told this committee truthfully while you are under
oath whether or not Mazzei, Cvetic, and Dietze lied when they identi-
fied you as a Communist, you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
I respectfully request or suggest the chairman to order you to
answer that question.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. Mr. Chairman, let me say this, I have already
said that I claim the fifth amendment on any of the statements that
those gentlemen have made.
Mr. Arens. Yes, but you have opened a whole new area of inquiry
now, of your own volition.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I haven't opened anything.
Mr. Arens. Let me suggest, Mv. Chairman, that the witness be or-
dered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not he truly
fears criminal prosecution if he denies while under oath the identifica-
tion of himself by these witnesses.
Mr. "Willis. That is a perfectly ^ood question. Counsel knows it.
He is not immune from any other fashion of testifying on other wit-
nesses. He is now ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. SciiLEsiNGER. I will, if Your Honor will permit me to answer
it and to finish an answer. Let me say first of tliese persons, Cvetic
has alread}^ demonstrated his ability to begin a criminal prosecution
against me.
Mr. ^^""11.1.18. That is not the question asked you.
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. I will finish the question. Therefore, in view
of the fact that Mr. Cvetic has brought a criminal prosecution, which
is a matter of public record, the onl}^ answer I can give will be in the
affirmative. He has already done it. I have no doubt but that this
mental psychopath will do the same thing again. And why should
1 give him anything, any kind of grounds upon which to function?
As to Mazzei, I have already characterized Mr. Mazzei. But what
disturbs me more, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Willis. Your answer is that you fear that if you truthfully
answered the question, the result would be to subject you to criminal
prosecution ?
Mr. ScHLEsiNGER. Not Only do I fear it, but I have experienced it.
Mr. Willis. All right.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir. Now let's get on to the next exhibit.
I want to invite your attention to a little proceeding back in 1951,
as i-ecorded in the Associated Press :
I'lTTSHUUGH, May 25. — Jiid?;e Michael Mnsmanno yestfrday held Attorney
Hyinan Schlesinger in contempt of court when the lawyer refused to say if he is
or ever has been a member of the Conununist Party.
.Tudse Musnianno put his question to Mr. Sihlesluger after the Pittsburgh
attorney appeared in court to plead a routine d:image suit. Judge Musmanno
asked him :
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"
Mr. Schlesinger told the .judge the proceedings was without precedent and
unconstitutional. Judge Musnianno replied :
•'The oath [taken l)y attorneys J requires you to behave yourself in office witii
all g(M)d fidelity and requires your allegiance to the United States."
Judge ]Musmanno cited testimony of a former V]M agent during another
trial and said it implicated Mr. Schlesinger. He said Mr. Schlesinger's con-
duct renders him unfit to try cases in court.
Judge Musmaimo said he will sentence Mr. Schlesinger at a hiter date.
6434 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Did you refuse to tell a judge of the State court of Avhich you are
an officer, as a member of the bar, whether or not j^ou are a Commu-
nist ?
Mr. ScHLESixGER, Mr. Counsel, first I will claim the first and fifth
amendments and sixth amendment on that.
Mr. Arens. Don't make another speech. We don't need that.
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. I was going to characterize Judge Musmanno's
proceeding as the Supreme Court has characterized it.
Mr. Arkns. Tlie next question is this : "Were you a member of the
Communist conspiracy when you had this little experience with Judge
Musmanno in the court ?
Mr. SciiLESiNGER. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments on
that question.
I think it will shortcut the proceedings, Mr. Chairman, if we
make it as simple as possible.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. I have nothing further to say except to make a re-
mark for the record, that a professional man, especially a lawyer,
is a very dangerous person if he is a member of the Communist con-
spiracy. Certainly it appears to me that the witness we have just
heard is a member of the Communist conspiracy. Again I want to say,
as I did yesterday, that all of our security agencies, for tlie protection
of tliis country, sliould continue their alertness in this particular
case.
Mr. Schlesinger. Mr. Conunittee member, Mr. Velde, I should like
to answer that.
Mr. Velde. I did not ask you a question.
Mr. Schlesinger. I have been accused. I think in fairness to my-
self, I should be permitted to reply to that statement.
Will the chairman permit me to reply to that ?
Mr. Willis. He made a statement for the record. You have been
on the record for a long time.
The witness is excused.
The subcommittee will take an informal recess of 5 minutes.
(Present at the taking of the recess: Eepresentatives Willis and
Velde.)
(Brief recess.)
(Present after the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis
and Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
Counsel will call his next witness, please.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Joseph Eudiak.
I\Ir. Willis. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rui)L\K. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH EUDIAK, ACCOMPAmED BY HYMEN
SCHLESINGER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. RUDLA.K. Joseph Rudiak, 1908 Jane Street, Pittsburgh; sales-
man, self-employed.
COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6435
Mr. Akens. You are appearing today, Mr. Rucliak, in response to
subpena which was served upon you by the House Conmiittee on
Un-American Activities ?
Mr. KuDiiVK. What is the question?
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
by the committee?
iVIr. EuDiAK. That is right.
Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel?
Mr. KuDiAK. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself?
Mr. Schlesinger. "With a great deal of pleasure. I am Hymen
Schlesinger, of Pittsburgh.
Mr. Arens. lsh\ Rudiak, where were you served your subpena?
Do you recall?
Mr. EuDiAK. At my home.
Mr. Arens. Is that 1908 Jane Street ?
Mr. RuDLVK, That is right.
Mr. Arens. Are you chairman of the Nationality Committee of
W^estern Pennsylvania ?
(The witness conferred v/ith his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the first and fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
whether or not you were chairman of the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. IMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the last question.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. In view of the fact that the oi .anization that you
are speaking about may be characterized in the newspapers as a sub-
versive organization, I claim the fifth amendment, the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Rudiak, I want to display to you a document
which was obtained by this committee pursuant to a subpena duces
tecum, "Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania, Post Office
Box 10781, Statement on the May 18 State Primary Elections," and
the recipient of this is called upon to do all kinds of things with ref-
erence to the repeal of tlie Walter-McCarran Act, all the efforts of
various groups in the country to destroy the Bill of Rights and pave
the way for fascism, and the lilte.
This document bears tlie identification Joe Rudiak, chairman ; Joe
Mankin, secretaiy. Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania.
Please look at that and see if you can't help this committee of the
Congress by verifying tlie authenticity of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 2G4," see appendix, pp. 7547,
7548.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. Where did you get it at ?
Mr. Arens. elust please tell this committee whether or not that is a
valid, true, and correct document. Did you ever see the document
before ?
6436 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, to continue to lay the fomidation
for reference to the snbpena duces tecum, 1 would like to request that
the record at this point reflect a letter which is addressed to me as
director of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, by the
assistant postmaster at Pittsburgh, Pa., with reference to the box
numbers and signature cards on file in that post office, for the National-
ity Committee of AVestern Pennsylvania, which letter will speak for
itself, but it says in essence that the person who can sign for it is
Mr. Joseph Rudiak, whose residential address is 1908 Jane Street,
Pittsburgh, Pa.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 265a, b," see appendix, pp. 7549,
7550.)
With that in the record, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully invite the
witness' attention to the subpena duces tecum itself.
Mr. Rudiak, the subpena which was served upon you calls for you to
appear personally and to produce before this committee excerpts from
all meetings of the Nationality Committee of V/estem Pennsylvania
during the period January 1, 1952, to October 20, 1956, showing all
action taken and all considerations given to proposals to revise or
repeal the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Do you have those documents under your custody and control ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment, and also the first amend-
ment. I don't deny or admit that I am chairman of the Nationality
Committee of Western Pennsylvania. I don't know of any records.
I don't know of any minutes of any kind. Again I want to say I
claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rudiak, are you now a Communist?
Mr. Rudiak. 1 claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Reuben J.
Hardin?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Under date of June 22, 1955, Reuben J. Hardin swore
before the Subversive Activities Control Board in his testimony that
he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the
truth?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Joe Mankin?
Mr. Rudiak. I claim the fifth amendment and tlio first amendment.
Mr. Arens. He is now deceased, isn't he, and he was formerly one
of the officers of the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to a document
which has come into the custody of the committee pursuant to a sub-
pena duces tecum. It is a statement of tlie Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania with reference to a number of legislative
items then pending in the Congress. It is signed "Fraternally yours,
Joseph Rudiak, chairmnn, Joe Mankin, secretary."'
It also announces a picnic to be held by this group. Look at that
document and see if you cannot help this committee identify that
organization.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 266," see appendix, pp. 7551,
7552.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. "VMiile you are looking at that, I invite your attention
also to another document, calling for a victory by the repeal of the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6437
Walter-McCarran Act, the Tuft-Hartley Act, and otlier aiitilabor
legislation as part of the program of this Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania, and this, likewise, bears the signature with
reference to the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania.
(Document marked "Exhibit Xo. 267," see appendix, pp. 7553,
7554.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the lirst and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now could you help your Government by telling, while
you are under oath, if the Nationality Committee of the Communist
Party of Western Pennsylvania, and the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsjdvania are one and the same entities ?
Mr. KuDiAK. What is the question agairi ^
Mr. Arexs. Yes.
JSIr. EuDiAK. Repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Is the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania
and the Nationality Committee of the Communist Party of Western
Pennsylvania one and the same? Are they one and the same?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Did you appear before the platform committee of the
Democratic Party in Peimsylvania on August 16, 1954 ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Will you repeat that again?
Mr. Arens. Did you appear before tlie platform committee of the
Democratic Party on August 16, 1954?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
^Ir. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest tlie witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. Of coui-se.
You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. EuDiAK. Mr. Chairman, if you can refresh
Mr. iVRENS. Refresh your recollection ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Yes.
Mr. Arens. I am sorry, I thought perhaps you would have an imme-
diate recollection of that. Here is a statement presented to the Demo-
cratic Party platform committee on behalf of the Nationality Com-
mittee of Western Pennsylvania, August 16, 1954, respectfully
submitted, so it says, by Joseph Rudiak, chairman, Nationalit}'^ Com-
mittee of Western Pennsylvania. It calls for a number of things. It
calls for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act, because it denies
everybody's rights, and it has second-class citizenslfip. It calls for
repeal of the Taft-Hartley iVct, and it calls for other legislative
programs.
Wluit I want to ask you is : When you submitted this to the Demo-
cratic platform committee on behalf of the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania, did you make it known to the Democratic
platform committee that you were a Communist agent?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 268," see appendix, p. 7555.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We recognize, of course, your right to ap])e;u- before the
Democratic platform committee, as any citizen's right. We just want
to make sure that when you went in there, you went in under the right
label.
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
85333— 57— pt. 1 20
6438 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. RuDLVK. I claim the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Allan McNeil ?
Mr. KuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Allan McNeil was up for deportation here awhile back,
wasn't he ?
Mr. EuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did the Nationality Committee of Western Pennsyl-
vania intercede on behalf of Allan McNeil while he was up for de-
portation as a Communist ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Please look at this next exhibit, that Mr. Appell is
going to show you, in which the Nationality Committee of Western
Pennsylvania is soliciting contributions to help carry on the fight of
Allan McNeil and other local victims of this "Un-American" law, the
Walter-McCarran Act. Look at that and see if it miglit refresh your
recollection. And I want to call to your attention, and particularly
the record's attention, that the Nationality Committee and the Na-
tionality Committee of Western Pennsylvania — in other words, the
Nationality Committee of the Connuunist Party and the Nationality
Committee of Western Pennsylvania both seem to be, by this docu-
ment, located at the same place, 6328 Forbes Street, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Look at the document and see if you can't help your Government by
giving us a little verification of it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 269," see appendix, p. 7556).
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. EuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arfns. Is there som.e relationship between tlie Pemisjh'ania
Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born, and tlie Nationality Com-
mittee of Western Pennsylvania, two organizations ? I just wondered
if you could help us here by telling us whether or not there is an
interlocking relationship there.
I\Ir. EuDL\K. I claim the first amendment and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Maybe this might help us on this, and perhaps you
can give us a little explanation. I see here a statemeiiit issued to the
platform committee of the Democratic Party of Pennsylvania by the
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, Western Pennsyl-
vania Chapter. This is signed by Evelyn Abelson, secretary, and
the address is 6328 Forbes Street. That, you recall, is the address
that was on the previous document of the Nationality Committee of
Western Pennsylvania. See if you couldn't clear that up and help
us here — how both organizations woidd happen to have the same
address.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 270," see appendix, p. 7557.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first amendment and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Evelyn Abelson?
i\Ir. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Miss Steinberg ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. And your counsel, did you know him in any way other
than in the relationship of attorney-client?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly suggest to this committee that if you
told us truthfully whether or not you have known your lawyer in
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6439
some capacity other than in the capacity of attorney-client, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
Mr. RuDLVK. I claim the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you been president of the ^Vmerican Slav Con-
gress of Western Pennsylvania ?
Mr. EuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have here a document that suggests that, and I want
to invite your attention to it. It is the Slavic American, a quarterly,
the summer of 1948 issue. We will mark this as an exhibit. We
are going to display it to you.
We have celebrated a special event in western Pennsylvania M-liich we feel
merits some attention. Joseph Eudiak, our ASC president, recently honey-
mooned at the Progressive Party convention with his wife, the former Regina
Bakowski, of Pittsburgh. They were married the day before the convention
opened and left for Philadelphia to begin not only their new life together, but
to join with thousands of progressive Americans in forming a new political
party.
Is that you they are talking about here? Is that you they are
talking about?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 27la, b," see appendix, pp. 7558,
7559.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I would like to look at that.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Look at it and see if you can't tell us whether or
not that is you who was president of this Slavic- American organi-
zation.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Does that ring a bell? Does that kind of refresh your
recollection ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments, and I wish
you would have privilege for married people.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I wish you had privilege for married people.
Mr. Arens. "Wliat is your wife's name, just from the standpoint of
identification ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Regina.
Mr. Arens. What was her maiden name ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Bakowski.
Mr. Arens. And were you married in the summer of 1948 ?
Mr. RuDiAK, Yes,
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Are you one of the sponsors of the Civil Rights Congress in Pitts-
burgh, the Pittsburgh Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall when they had the trial down in New
York City of the Communist traitors that were convicted under the
Smith Act, conspiring to overthrow the Government by force and
violence? Do you recall that?
Mr. RuDiAK. What was your question ?
Mr. Arens. Do you recall the incident or the series of incidents,
when the Government prosecuted, and they were convicted, that num-
ber of Communist traitors in New York City, in Judge Medina's court ?
Do you recall that?
Mr. RiTDiAK. What trials?
Mr. Arens. The Smith Act.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
6440 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Do you recall it ? Do you remember it ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. How many cases were there ?
Mr. Arens. A number. Do you recall the principal cases down
there?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. The first one, where they had about 11 or 12 of them up !
Mr. EuDiAK. I read about them.
Mr. Arens. Is that the only thing that you knew about them ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You sent a vigorous protest down there to Judge
Medina against the conviction and jailing of these traitors; did you
not?
Mr. RuDiAK. Well, do you have anything there?
Mr. Arens. Do you deny it?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I don't admit it and I don't deny it.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall also on behalf of the American Slav
Congress of Western Pennsylvania wiring Judge Medina with re-
spect to three Communist leaders, stating "We need no lessons that
you have learned from Hitler Germany," in reference to the jailing
of these Communist traitors ? Do you recall that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. To refresh my recollection, I would like to see the
articles.
Mr. Arens. I just asked you if you recall. I just have one of them
here, but notations on the others.
Show him this, would you please, Mr. Appell. Maybe it will re-
fresh his recollection, and maybe he will be truthful with us and tell
us whether he did it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. It didn't help you at all, then, by looking at that article^
did it?
Now I want to lay before you some other exhibits.
The Committee To Pbotect Joseph Mankin's Citizenship
For further information relative to this case, communicate with Evelyn Abel-
son, 8328 Forbes Street.
(See exhibit No. 2-10, appendix, p. 7501.)
Do you know a Joe Mankin ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What did you do, now, to help stop the denaturalization
of this Communist ? Did you do anything to help stop the denaturali-
zation or try to stop it, I should say ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did I ask you if you know George Dietze?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Dietze swore that he knew you as a Communist.
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. RuDiAK. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I don't think the record is quite clear what it is you do
for a livelihood, besides the extracurricular activities. From what
source is your income?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6441
IVIr. Willis. He said he was a salesmaji.
Mr. Arens. What do you sell ?
Mr. RuDL\K. Specialties.
Mr. Arens. What kind of specialties.
Mr. RuDiAK. Signs.
Mr. Arens. For what company ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Neon signs, and
Mr. Arens. For what company ? What is the name of the company ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RuDiAK. I don't work for a company. I am self-employed.
Mr. Willis. Do you have a contract in some way ?
Mr. RuDiAK. Well, I would say that — self-employed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
•the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Willis. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Allan D. McNeil, kindly come forward.
Mr. Willis. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
"will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. McNeil. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALLAN D. McNEIL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HYMEN SCHLESINGER
Mr. Aren. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. McNeil. My name is Allan McNeil. I reside at 344 Ward
Street, Pittsburgh, Pa., and I am unemployed, I might add, thanks
to the series of events of this type.
Mr. Arens. Are you alluding to the investigation which we had
when I was with another committee, the Internal Security Committee,
in Pittsburgh a year or two ago, in which you were called before the
committee and identified repeatedly as a member of the Communist
conspirac}^ and invoked the fifth amendment? Is that what you are
alluding to?
Mr. McNeil. Well, Mr. Arens, you helped.
Mr. Arens. I am very sorry that you feel that way about it, be-
cause we felt we were doing our duty.
Now, Mr. McNeil, you are appearing today in response to a subpena
W'hich was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. ScHLESiNGER. With pleasure. I am Hymen Schlesinger, of
Pittsburgh.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. McNeil, you say you are unemployed. I
think that the record here will show that you have been at least oc-
cupied in certain things.
Are you currently secretary to the Committee To End Sedition
Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, I must use the fifth amendment.
6442 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not you are employed at the present time as
secretary to the Committee To End Sedition Laws, you would be
supplying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
Mr. jMcNeil. Mr. Arens, you know very well that is exactly what
you do intend.
Mr. Arens. Mr. McNeil, this subpena which was served upon you
requests you, or orders you, to produce before this committee certain
documents, does it not ?
;Mr. McNeil. Yes, it does.
Mr. Arens. All the minutes, minutes from all the meetings, of the
Committee To End Sedition Laws, during the period of July 1, 1954,
to October 20, 1956
]\Ir. Willis. To end sedition laws ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
And showing all action taken and all consideration given to pro-
posals to repeal the sedition statutes of tlie various States within the
United States.
Do you have those documents here today ?
Mr. McNeil. I am very sorry. I went to a lot of trouble to collect
them, and then unfortunately, we had a disastrous fire. I would like
to introduce this for you to take a look at. The entire building burned
down. "We weren't allo^A'ed to get into look at the thing.
Mr. Arens. When did you start all this trouble to collect these?
Mr. McNeil. Eight after I got the subpena.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go to collect all these docmnents?
Mr. McNeil. The documents were in the office of the committee.
Mr. Arens. And where did you go to get these documents?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. Without admitting or denying any connection
Mr. Arens. Just a minute. You admitted it already. You volun-
teered that you went to collect these documents at the office, and the
office was burned down, or at least somewhere in the process the
records got burned. You just answer the question: Where did
you go to get these documents ? ^
(Document marked "Exhibit 2T2," see appendix, p. Y560.)
Mr. McNeil. Let me please first correct you, if I may. This is
where I learned of the burning.
Mr. Arens. You just answer the principal question in view of the
status of this record. Where did you go to get these documents ?
Mr. McNeil. Personally, I tried to get into this building to do
Mr. Arens. What building ?
Mr. McNeil. The building that burned.
Mr. Arens. Why did you go there?
Mr. McNeil. There was an office there in which the things w^ere
contained. By the way, I might add, some of which were personal.
Mr. Arens. Where was the office? What floor of the building?
Mr. McNeil. It was on the second floor.
1 After the hearings the committee received a letter dated November 29, 1056, from the
United States attorney. Western District, Pa., ■uliich refuted McNeil's testimony concerning
the destruction of the documents.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6443
Mr. Arens. Y/hat is tlie name of the building and the location?
Mr. McNeil. The building is at Wood and Forbes Street and Oak-
land in Pittsburgh.
Mr. Arexs. And did you expect, when you got to that building, to
get the documents called for in this subpena ?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir ; I did not, in view of this story.
Mr. Arens. Were the documents called for in this subpena in the
building Avhich was burned down ?
Mr. McNeil. I would have to try to find that out at that time.
I was going to take the trouble to do that.
Mr. Arens. Did you know in advance that the building did contain
the documents called for in the subpena ?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Arens. What made you go to the building, then, or what made
you think you could go to the building and find them?
Mr. McNeil. Because, obviously, that is the one place where they
might be.
Mr. ^Vrens. Why?
Mr. McNeil. Because the office of the committee was there.
Mr. Arens. What committee?
Mr. McNeil. The Committee To End Sedition Laws.
Mr. Arens. How did you know the office was there ?
Mr. McNeil. Because I had been the secretary in the past.
Mr. Arens. And when did you disassociate yourself from the Com-
mittee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I don't absolutely recollect the date, in truth.
Mr. Arens. You said you had been the secretary of the Committee
To End Sedition Laws. Over what period of time were you a member
of the Committee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. Several months, I presume.
Mr. Arens. Beginning when ?
Mr. McNeil. It is quite clifiicult to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. What year ?
Mr. McNeil. Last year.
Mr. Arens. Was it the spring, summer, winter, fall ?
Mr. McNeil. I suspect it was most of the year.
Mr. Arens. And was that a paid job that you had as secretary of
the Committee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. IMcNeil. No ; it was not. I wish it was.
Mr. Arens. And who was chairman of the Committee To End
Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. No ; I asked who was chairman ?
Who was chairman of the Committee To End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I claim the first and fifth on that, sir.
Mr. Arens. "Wlio got you your job with the Committee To End
Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I give you the same answer, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Who else headquartered the same office with you?
Mr. McNeil. You have the same answer, again, sir.
Mr. Arens. You have admitted that you were secretary of the
Committee to End Sedition Laws. I now ask you to name the other
6444 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
officers during the period of time that you were a member of the
Committee to End Sedition Laws.
Mr. McNeil. I must use the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arents. Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. The cases are
replete with decisions of the courts that once a witness once identifies
himself with reference to an organization he may not invoke the
fifth amendment with reference to tlie other officers of the organiza-
tion.
Mr. Willis. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. The committee, sir, was composed of the people who
came under attack under the Sedition Laws of the State of Penn-
sylvania.
Mr. Arens. And wlio are they ?
Mr. McNeil. And, incidentally, not all of them. Mr. Nelson was
one.
Mr. Arens. Steve Nelson?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Abens. Yes?
Mr. McNeil. And Mr. Careathers ?
Mr. Arens. Is that Ben Careathers?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir.
Mr. McNeil. And in absentia the others who were under the same
attack. As I recall it, it was Mr. Dolsen, who later on went to Phila-
delphia, or some place.
Mr. Arens. Anybody else?
Mr. McNeil. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Then the w^hole Committee to End Sedition Laws con-
sists of less than a half-dozen people, is that correct ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And did anyone else besides yourself actually head-
quarter at the headquarters of the Committee to End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. First and fifth on this, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, may I interject a question there?
At what time was this committee form.ed to end sedition laws?
Mr. McNeil. As I recollect, Mr. Velde, it goes back to the begin-
ning of last year.
Mr. Velde. It was after Steve Nelson was convicted of sedition, is
that correct?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct. It was in the process of his appeal
to the courts.
Mr. Velde. Where is Steve Nelson now ?
Mr. McNeil. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr. Arens. Well, now, who financed this Committee To End Sedi-
tion Laws?
Mr. McNeil. You have forced me to use the first and fifth on this.
Mr. Arens. It wasn't financed by the American Legion and the
Council of Churches, was it ?
Mr. McNeil. Perhaps you can answer that.
Mr. Arens. \^ou tell us. Was it financed by the Communist Party?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, Mr, Arens.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6445
Mr. Arens. And what was the purpose of the Committee To End
Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I will take the first and fifth, again, on that one.
Mr. Arens. Now what did this Committee To End Sedition Laws
do?
Mr. McNeil. On this question, too, Mr. Arens
Mr. Arens. Did the Committee To End Sedition Laws have affili-
ates in other cities or was it the only committee that you knew about
to end sedition laws?
Mr. McNeil, I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did you have a successor as secretarv of the Committee
To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I cannot answer that question. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Who was your superior in the organization ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any employees ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
]^Ir. Arens. Was the Committee To End Sedition Laws incorpo-
rated or was it just a committee without any status by legal procedure?
Mr. McNeil. No traps, Mr. Arens. I use the first and fifth on
that, too.
Mr. Arens. I don't understand what you said there. Was there
a pro forma degree of incorporation ?
Mr. McNeil. No.
Mr. Arens. Was it a corporation ?
Mr. McNeil. No.
Mr. Arens. It was not. Now, tell us who met at the founding
meeting of this Committee To End Sedition Laws, or was there a
founding meeting?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did the gentleman to your left, Mr. Schlesinger, have
anything to do with the Committee To End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Was he one of the organizers of the committee?
Mr. McNeil. I will give j^ou the same answer.
Mr. Arens. What did the Committee To End Sedition Laws do
toward ending the sedition laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I vv'ill use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens- Is the Committee To End Sedition Laws still in effect?
Mr. McNeil. I will give you the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. When did you last physically appear in the office of the
Committee To End Sedition Laws?
Mr. McNeil. I will give you the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. What precipitated your disassociation from the Com-
mittee To End Sedition Laws ?
Mr. McNeil. I give you the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered to answer that question. He has said he was secretary and
he says he is no longer secretary.
Mr. Willis. I will direct you to answer.
Mr. McNeil. Under direction, I will answer. I was unemployed,
and I was tempted to find employment. It is that simple.
Mr. Arens. You were unemployed while you were secretary of the
Committee To End Sedition Laws ?
6446 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ]\IcNeil. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And then what did you do, just, voluntarily resign?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, Mr. Arens. I
have answered the question asked.
Mr. Arens. We are back where we started. Was your disassocia-
tion from the Committee To End Sedition Laws voluntary or
involuntary ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Willis. I will direct you to answer.
Mr. McNeil. It was voluntary.
Mr. Arens. '\^niere and when were you bom ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, too.
Mr. Arens. Wliere were you born ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, sir.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Have vou used any name other than the name of
Allan McNeil ?
Mr. McNeil. Excuse me.
Mr. Arens. Let's start over again in this last series of questions,
then. ^'\^iere were you born?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. When were you born?
]\Ir. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, too.
Mr. Arens. Have you used any name in your life other than the
name Allan McNeil ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth on that.
]Mr. Arens. Have you ever used the name of Allen Johnson ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Suppose you could help us here? We have a picture,
a photograph, of Major Johnson, "bids farewell to the men in Spain
in Barcelona, in 1938" and it is signed Allen Johnson. This Major
Johnson in this farewell address tells what all he has done over there
helping the Communists fight in Spain. Curiously enough, it is a
photograph that looks quite like you. I wonder if you could look at
that and help us and tell us if that photograph might be you.
(Photograph marked "Exhibit No. 273," in bound volume. Volun-
teers for liberty, retained in committee files.)
Mr. McNeil. I will be very glad to look at it, sir.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon?
Mr. McNeil. I will be very glad to look at it.
Mr. Arens. Will you tell us whether or not that is you ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, Mr. McNeil, that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not that photograph which is being
displayed to you is a pliotograph of yourself, you would be supplying
information which might be used against you in a criminal proceed-
ing?
Mr. ]\IcNeil. Mr. Arens, my experience with you and with other
people who have investigations leads me to believe that that would
be true.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. You have had rather sorry experiences
with investigating committees, haven't you?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6447
Mr. McNeil. And with you, yes, indeed, I have.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
T have a war bulletin here, a war bulletin issued over in Spain, by
Maj. Allen Johnson, and this war bulletin has all kinds of material
in it showing what all the Nazis are doing, and also jumping on the
Hearst papers, all signed by Maj. Allen Johnson.
Look at this war bulletin from over there that we got by legal
means, from Spain, and tell this committee whether or not you are
the person who prepared that war bidletin over there.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 274," see appendix, p. 7561.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the iirst and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the big officers of the conference
to aid Spain?
Mr. jNIcNeil. I don't even know what you are talking about.
Mr. Abens. The Committee To Aid Spanish Democracy, would
you know about that?
]Mr. McNeil. I heard about it in the papers, but that is all.
iSIr. Arens. Is that the only way you heard about it ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Phil Bard?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. It is a curious thing if you don't know anything about
the Committee To Aid Spanish Democracy. We have here a letter,
Mr. McNeil, signed by Allen Johnson, addressed to Phil Bard, and
this letter, according to its letterhead, originated and was initiated in
Spain, at JNIadrid. Look at that letter and tell us whether or not this
is your signature on this letter addressed to Phil Bard.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 275,'' see appendix, p. 7562.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. I want you to be sure you don't get into trouble with
the committee in that respect, or any other difficulty.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Then maybe you do know something about the Commit-
tee To Aid Spanish Democracy. Do you have any recollection now
that you have seen this letter?
Mr. McNeil. Candidly I don't. I am not trying to equivocate,
either.
Mr. x\rens. Do you know Stephen J. Eudich?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Stephen Rudich identified you just last year before
this committee as a person known by him to be a member of the Com-
munist Party. Was liudich lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. You have never broken away from the Communist con-
spiracy; have you?
Mr. McNeil. I will again use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us something about this District Six
Committee to Defend Allan D. McNeil ? Did you have anything to do
with the formation of that committee?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth amendments, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know anj'thing about the committee?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth amendments, sir.
6448 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I have here a document that I want to display to you —
"Defend Labor, Defend UE, Defend ^McNeil, issued by the District
Six Committee to Defend Allan D. McNeil."
It is a protest instructing the Attorney General to instruct the
Immigration Department to cease harassing McNeil. Was the Immi-
gration and Naturalization Service harassing you?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 276a-d," see appendix, pp. 7563-
7566.)
Mr. McNeil,. You may call it what you will, Mr. Arens. I was on
the receiving end.
Mr. Arens. Were they trying to deport you ?
Mr. McNeil. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Arens. Why were they trying to deport you ?
Mr. McNeil. Your guess is as good as mine.
Mr. Arens. Well, were you a Communist?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. You received charges from the Immigration and
Naturalization Service under this terrible, terrible, terrible Immigra-
tion and Naturalization Act, the Walter-McCarran Act, didn't you?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on all questions relating
to deportation proceedings, sir.
]Mr. Arens. I have another document here that seems to revolve a
little bit around you : 40 million people, all in jeopardy because of the
Walter-McCarran Act. A typical illustration of why they are all in
jeopardy is because Allan McNeil has been identified by six different
stool pigeons as a Communist.
It says :
Beware of all stool pigeons. We must not turn the clock back.
This is all issued by the District Council Six Defense Committee of
the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 277a-d," see appendix, pp. 7567-
7570.)
Were you ever with the UE ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use first and fifth on that, too, sir.
Mr. Arens. And were you with the District Council Six Defense
Committee ?
Mr. McNeh.. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Do a^ou know a man by the name of John Butler?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. He identified you as a Communist. Was he lying or
was he telling the truth ?
Mr. McNeil. The same answer, sir.
Mr. Arens. I have another letter here I want to ask you about. It
is on the letterhead of the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade,
June 2, 1954, and it is signed by Moe Fishman, addressed to "Dear
Allan."
Well, the encampment and the commemoration are over. What stood out for
both was a larirer number of our guys who turned out for both.
It t^lls all about the work of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and
then starts jumping into the stool pigeons again.
So far every stoolie down there has tied your name into the picture. Harvey,
Mickenberg, and Gladnick have you on a commission on the 5th floor * * *.
They have you as second in command * * *.
But you will get more on this in the next vol. also — I hope.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6449
Look at that letter, now, and see if you can't help us decipher who
this fellow Moe Fisliman is, and why he would be writing to you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 278," see appendix, pp. 7571,
7572.)
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I would like to protest the fact that this letter appar-
ently has been intercepted or stolen from someplace.
Mr. Arexs. How did you know that? What makes you suggest
that t
Mr. McNeil. Because it is addressed
Mr. Arexs. Does it look like it is an original letter, or is it a bogus
letter?
Mr. McNeil. No, it looks like an original.
Mr. Arexs. Is it a bona fide letter?
Mr. ]McNeil. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Did you receive that letter ?
Mr. McNeil. I do not even remember that.
Mr. Arexs. Look at it and see if vou can recall. Do you know the
autlior of that letter?
Mr. McNeil. If you will excuse me, I will use the first and fifth
amendment on all matters dealing with this organization.
Mr. Velde. Mr. McNeil, I do not know whether counsel has asked
3'Ou or not, but were you a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?
Mr. McNeil. On that question, too, Mr. Velde, I must use the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Vei,de. Were you a comrade of Steve Nelson during that time ?
Mr. McNeil. xVgain, sir, you have the same reply from me.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever meet Palmiro Togliatti?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I have the same reply.
Mr. Velde. I think it sliould be stated for the record that the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade has also been classified by the Attorney
General and the Un-American Activities Committee as a subversive
organization.
Mr. Arexs. Yes. It was inspired and controlled by the Communist
world conspiracy.
Mr. McNeil. Are you asking for opinion ?
Mr. Arexs. You can tell us.
Was the Abraham Lincoln Brigade controlled by the Communists?
Mr. McNeil. No, I thought you were asking for an opinion.
Mr. Arexs. Do you care to express your opinion as to whether or
not it was controlled by the Communist conspiracy?
?>Ir. JMcNeil. Well, the papers tell me it has been cited. The papers
don't tell me that it has been convicted. In the meanwhile, it seems
that you gentlemen proceed with all of these organizations, all of
them, on the general sweeping basis that once Mr. Brownell categorizes
them, they are, therefore, ipso facto
Mr. Arexs. If we are wrong, you tell us. Was the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade not controlled by the Communists? You seem to have a little
information about it there. I want to see if you can't help your
Government.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I think it is a question. My protest is a general
one.
Mr. Arexs. Let's get specific first, and then we will get to the gen-
eralities. Let's get specific about the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.
6450 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
You want to protest that being described as a subversive organization.
You luive that right and we welcome your protest. Tell us on what
you base your knowledge about the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Do
you have personal experience in that regard ?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, you are not going to trap me. You tried
it before. I will tell you simply I will use the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
No^^• I want to allude to this letter, addressed to "Dear Allan."
That is the letter you protest us having. It is by Moe Fishman. Do
you want the letter back ?
Mr, McNeil, I don't even know that it is my letter, candidly, be-
cause I did not
Mr. Arexs. Do you know the author of the letter, Moe Fishman?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I use the first and fifth again.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
Gladuick already appeared on the scene last week and was tbe last witness-
before the recess till June 7. We used some of the material he had testified too
[sic] at your hearing and have only now — a little late — become aware that there
may be some trouble on that since it seems you are not supposed to use material
from immigration hearings someone told us. We are checking further— but
am afraid the milk has been spilt, since Milt (who won the right to cross-
examine) indicated the material was from those hearings. We will let you
know if anything develops on this here — but fear it may be used against your
attorney in Pitts. Let me know if anything develops.
Who was your attorney in Pittsburgh ?
Mr. McNeil. I don't even know in what case or what situation you
are referring to. I will be very frank, I don't even know
Mr. Arens. We want 3^011 to be frank, we want you to be very
frank.
Now, this exhibit we lay before you is entitled "Fact Sheet on
Lincoln Brigade Veterans Under Attack." It is a fact sheet on
all of these veterans of the Lincoln Brigade, who are under attack, and
a call for everyone to write the President and the Attorney General,
demanding amnesty for a niunber of people including Steve Nelson,.
and Lincoln Battalion Commissar, Irving Weissman; Saul Wellman;
Allan McNeil ; John Gates ; Robert Thompson.
Allan (Alan) McNeil is described here as —
Served in the American Army before going to Spain. Served as major in Spain.
Outstanding trade union leader and organizer for the United Electrical Workers.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 279," see appendix, p. 7573.)
Is that you ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and the fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. You know, Mr. McNeil, as a witness here you are
entitled to certain witness fees, but to do so you have to sign a little
voucher.
I respectfully request, Mr. Chairman, in view of what I am going to
say, that if IMr. ^IcNeil signs his pay voucher for his witness fees, that
his signature from that voucher be incorporated in this record, because
I am going to ask him about some documents that do have his signature
on tliem.
Mr. Willis. That will be the procedure.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a letter signed just Allan, addressed to
"Dear Evelyn," June 18, 1954.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6451
That is Evelyn Abelson, the preceding witness.
I received the attached letter by registered mail today from the Immigration
Service. This will make the fourth time hearings have been held on my ease.
They no longer allow any substantial time element either * * *
Please note that Yee has received a copy of this letter from the Service.
May I suggest that before the hearing a letter along the lines of the attached
draft go out to at least the list of the people who previously supported me.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 280 a-d," see appendix, pp.
7674-7578.)
Next is a letter addressed to "My dear friends." (See exhibit No.
280c, appendix, p. 7576.)
I want you to tell us whether that is your signature, on the letter
which you sent to Evelyn Abelson, of this Communist-controlled
organization. (See exliibit No. 280b, appendix, p. 7575.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. Before I officially use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens,
I want to again
;Mr. Arens. Do you propose to use the first and fifth ?
Mr. McNeil. Once again I want to call attention to the fact that
somebody has been in somebody's files. Tliis is stealing. It is plain,
ordinary theft, and two wrongs do not make a right, Mr. Arens, in
anybod3''s world.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to set everybody right now by telling us
that that is your signature?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, I told you I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Do 3'Ou want to surmise that maybe the comniittee might
have come into custody of this material in a perfectly legitimate and
lawful manner by a subpena dii.ces tecum within the right of tiiis
committee ?
Mr. McNeil. You might very well have, but somebody else stole
it, then, and you are dealing with a thief.
Mr. AjiENS. What makes you think tliat somebody stole that mail?
Mr. McNeil. Because you are taking the mail.
Mr. Arens. Look at that signature and tell us if it is a bona fide
signature. ]\laybe we made it up in the back room.
Mr. McNeil. Here we go again, Mr. Arens. I use the first and
fifth.
Mr. Arens. Of course you will.
Mr. McNeil. That is right.
Mr. Arens. I forgot. There is one other little thing. In connection
with that letter, I have a statement in the JMcNeil case which appar-
ently accompanied that letter. It tells what a great hero this man
was, this man McNeil, all about what a great hero he was in Spain,
hoAv he is being maligned and attacked by the Government, the Gov-
ernment's case is weak, and that all we iieed is money. If we have
money, and determination, we can defeat these Fascists who are out
to persecute this innocent man McNeil with the splendid record.
Look at this and tell us if you ]>repared that document vourself to
send to Evelyn Abelson, the Comnninist, to get her to reproduce it
and send it to a number of people over the country to enlist funds to
help you.
(See exhibit No. 280d, appendix, p. 7576.)
(The \A itness conferred with his counsel.)
6452 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. McNeil, No. 1, I don't recognize it for mine. No. -2, even if
it were, sir, I would be compelled to use the first and the fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Let me read you still another letter. This is an orig-
inal letter in handwriting. It is just addressed to "PLvelyn" and
signed "Allan."
This is a good order. You did a good job. As a victory, lemporary but still
a victory.
(See exhibit No. 21-1, api)endix, p. 7502.)
You know, Mr. McNeil, 1 am having difficulty reading this writing.
Persons do have difficulty reading hand vrri ting of other people.
Would you kindly read the letter to the committee ? You can help
us. We have difficulty translating it,
Mr. McNeil. I am sorry, I can't read it myself. I nuist use the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you recognize the signature?
Mr. McNeil. No, I don't, sir.
Mr. Arens. You don't recognize the signature ? Do you deny the
signature ?
Mr. McNeil. No, I didn't do that. I just said I didn't recognize or
not recognize. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. You have been a great fighter for peace, haven't you ?
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed to fight for peace, are you? It is
a laudable objective.
Mr. McNeil. Are you asking a personal opinion, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Yes,
Mr. McNeil. Why, Mr. Arens, I would be delighted, and always
have been — I think my record stands on that question
Mr. Arens. We want to talk about your record as a fighter for peace.
I am glad you mentioned that.
Mr. McNeil, Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. In the Communist Daily Peoples World of September
23, 1952, there is an article demanding a cease fire. It is a highlight
of a UE meeting in Cleveland, Ohio. It is a convention of the United
Electrical Workers. Among the fi.ghters for peace, part of your
record that you just alluded to, was delegate Allan McNeil of Pitts-
burgh, Local 623, who is quoted here as saying :
There is nothing we can do to put into action the splendid program of this
union if we fail to fight for peace.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 281," see appendix, p. 7579,)
Were you a participant in that program for peace of the Com-
munist controlled United Electrical Workers Union session in Cleve-
land in 1952?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. That is only part of this record you are talking about,
that you would be very glad to have revealed to the world.
Now I have still another document — we will be through here pretty
soon, Mr. INIcNeil — a copy of a letter from the Committee To End
Sedition Laws, addressed to "Dear Brothers,'' November 19, 1954.
What brothers did you have in the Committee To End Sedition
LaAvs? Is it a fraternal organization with many brothers in it?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 282a, b," see appendix, pp. 7580,
7581.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6453
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arexs. Look at this letter now and see if you can't help us a
little bit. It is signed by "Allan D. McNeil, Secretary, Fraternally
yours, the Committee to End Sedition Laws."
Mr. McNeil. "While I am delighted to take a look at it, Mr. Arens,
I told you already that on any material in connection with this mat-
ter I would use the first and fifth on, and I am giving that reply now.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Louis Goldblatt ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. After you were proceeded against by the Lnmigration
Service, you solicited a number of letters, did you not, from Com-
munist-controlled organizations, commending you for being such a
wonderful person ; isn't that correct ?
Mr. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let's look at a few of them. Here is a letter dated
June 30, 1953, from Louis Goldblatt, of the International Long-
shoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, addressed to "Dear Sir and
Brother."
That commends Brother Allan McNeil.
How unfortunate it is that the Immigration Service is harassing
him. Look at that letter and see if you have ever seen it before, and
tell us whether or not you solicited that letter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 283," see appendix, p. 7682.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNeil. I must, use the first and the fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you the district representative of the United Elec-
trical Workers ?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, in connection with the union, I shall use the first
and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Was this union not a union, but was it, on the other
hand, an instrumentality of the Communist conspiracy masquerading
as a labor organization ?
Mr. McNeil. ^Vhile I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens, I think it is
most unfortunate
Mr. Arens. Then just answer the question. Was the UE controlled
by the Communist Party?
' Mr. McNeil. Sir, while I have to use the first and fifth
Mr. Arens. You don't have to use it. We prefer you not use it,
unless you fear criminal consequences. Tell us, was the UE of
which you were the district representative- — —
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, bad manners are inexcusable anyplace.
Mr. Arens. Certainly.
Mr. McNeil. You asked me a question and you asked me to answer
it.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Did I intrude ? I beg your pardon. I apologize.
Now, please answer the principal question. We have the apology
set. Was the UE controlled by the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, sir, and file a protest at
you maligning the labor movement in this general manner.
Mr. Arens. Let's clear that point up. Was the UE and is the
UE a legitimate bona fide labor organization representing the interests
of the working people or is it, on the other hand, to your certain
85333— 57— pt. 1 21
6454 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
knowledge controlled by persons who are in the Communist con-
spiracy ?
Mr, McNeil. The only reason I do what I am going to do
Mr. Arens. Just answer that question. I have to intrude. I don't
mean to use bad manners. Just answer the question.
Mr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, you be as polite as I am about this.
Mr. Arens. I apologize again. Just answer the question.
Mr. McNeil. I will most certainly do that.
Mr. Arexs. All right, do it.
j\Ir. McNeil. However, I want to tell you that tlie unions in this
country ai'e genuine. But I am compelled, because you are trying to
trap me, to use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Wasn't the UE thrown out of the CIO, because the
CIO found it was Communist controlled?
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I am using the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Why don't you, in great politeness, tell us whether or
not you were a member of the Communist conspiracy when you were
district representative of the United Electrical Workers ?
Mr. McNeil. Again, I will use the first and fifth for you, IVIr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. When you were with the UE, did you prepare a docu-
ment "They want to turn the clock back" attacking Senators Jenner
and McCarran, Senator Taft, and, among others, the distinguished
member of this committee, who is present here today, Mr. Velde ? Did
you do that while you were with the UE ? Did you prepare this leaflet
that I now lay before you, with this organization that you have de-
scribed as a legitimate, bona fide labor organization ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 284a-d," see appendix, pp. 7583-
7586.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Did you prepare this one : "For a living Bill of Rights,"
issued by District 6, United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of
America, Pittsburgh, Pa. Did you prepare that while j^ou were
with UE ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 285a-d," see appendix, pp. 7587-
7590.)
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth on that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to a document we
have only photographed 2 or 3 pages of. It is a magazine, the March
of Labor, and which has been identified and characterized by this
committee after extensive, careful investigation as a Communist-con-
trolled publication, the March of Labor. "40 million Americans
threatened. Repeal the McCarran-Walter Act. It is a law against
the people."
One of the reasons why it is a law against tlie ])eople is because of
the case of Allan McNeil, UE representative in Pittsburgh.
"Though born in Minnesota, McNeil was being threatened with de-
portation to Scotland."
Look at that and see if you are the Allan McNeil alluded to in that
publication.
(See exhibit No. 36a-c, appendix, pp. 7148-7150.)
Mr. McNeil. Sir, I must use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arexs. There is just a question or two we Avant to clear up and
then we will conclude, Mr. McNeil.
Were you born in the United States of America or outside the United
States of America ?
Mr. McNeil. Again I use the first and fifth.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6455
Mr. Arens. Were you born in the Western Hemisphere or the
Eastern Hemisphere ?
Mr. McNeil. Again I use the first and fifth. You are back again
to the old game, Mr. Arens. You did this once before.
Mr. Arens. You don't have something to hide ; do you ?
Mr. McNeil. I have as much patience as you have, sir.
jMr. Arens. I beg your pardon?
Mr. McNeil. I have as much patience as you have.
Mr. Arens. What did you tell the Inmiigration Service was your
place of birth ?
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth, sir.
Mr. Arens. You told the Immigration Service you were born in
the United States of America, and that you were a native-born
citizen of this country ; didn't you ?
Mr. McNeil. Are you expressing an opinion ?
jNIr. Arens. I am asking a question and you know I am asking a
question.
Mr. McNeil. I will use the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever had a passport issued by this Govern-
ment to travel abroad ?
j\Ir. McNeil. I use the first and fifth, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Why Avould you use the first and fifth in connection with
a passport, unless you have been doing a little monkey business with
a passport ?
INlr. McNeil. Mr. Arens, you know certainly well why I use the
first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. I certainly do, because you have been engaged in fraudu-
lent activities with a passport.
Mr. McNeil. You are making allegations, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Deny under oath that you have not falsified your pass-
port application.
Mr. McNeil, I am not going to have you send me to jail just like
that, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. I am not sending vou to jail, I am asking a question.
Mr. McNeil. The first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. I have no questions, as I believe our veiy able counsel
has done everything possible to get whatever information possible, and
tlie witness being an oldtimer ( -onnnunist obviously knows his way
around. I see no need of going further in this matter.
Mr. Willis. We Avill take a 5-minute informal recess.
(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis and
Velde.)
(Brief recess.)
(Present after tlie taking of the recess: Rei^resentatives Willis and
Velde.)
Mr. Willis. The subcommittee will come to order.
The Chair wishes to make this statement.
Before we adjourn this series of hearings of the Conunitlee on Un-
American Activities, I would like to recapitulate briefly some of the
things of particular significance and importance which we believe
that we have develo))ed here, I speak for both my colleague. Repre-
sentative Velde, and myself, when I say that tlie hearings, in our
judgment, have b;}eu very constructive.
6456 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
We have learned, for example, of one more part of the wide&pread
Communist underground apparatus directed by dedicated hard core
men and women. We have received evidence of the Commmiist tech-
niques of infiltration, conspiracy, and potential sabotage and espion-
age. We have been able to determine that despite the Ohio Smith Act
trials of several years ago, which, it was hoped, would decapitate the
leadership of the Communist Party in this area, the Communist or-
ganization has been able to maintain and even extend itself, and stands
today as a grave and continuing threat.
This is proof, again, that no single blow is sufficient to dissolve and
immobilize the Communist conspiracy, and that continuing and re-
lentless efforts by agencies of this Government, such as this committee,
are essential.
Communist propaganda continues to flood tliis area, through con-
cealed Communists and through front organizations. The purpose
of these Communist activities is to confuse and weaken the will to
resist the Communist advances, and to destroy the executive and legis-
lative program which has been designed to obstruct the operation of
a Communist apparatus in this area and throughout the entire United
States.
One of the most interesting results of these hearings, I believe, has
been the identification of the Ohio and Western Pennsylvania Com-
mittees for Protection of Foreign Born, as integral components of the
parent American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The American Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom was iden-
tifiied several years ago by the Attorney General of the United States
as a Communist subversive organization in proceedings before the
Subversive Activities Control Board. The American committee
maintained that the various regional affiliates, like the Ohio and west-
ern Pennsylvania committees, were independent organizations. The
testimony that we have heard today, together with the material un-
earthed by our investigation, proves conclusively for the first time that
the regional organizations, like the Ohio and western Pennsylvania
committees, and hundreds of others like them, are all a part of the
vast apparatus of political subversion controlled, directed and staffed
by the Communist Party of the United States.
^ The underlying purpose of the hearings of the Committee on Un-
American Activities is to develop information necessary for the rec-
ommendation of new legislation, or the amendment of existing
legislation designed to combat communism. In this regard, its first
duty is to report its findings to the Congress. But beyond this obli-
gation, it performs a highly valuable function in making the people
of a particular community aware of the Communist conspirators and
the Connnunist apparatus which exists among them.
I am quite sure that the information which the people of Youngs-
town and its neighboring areas received during the course of these
hearings will give them a heightened appi-eciation of the continuing
efforts of the Conmiunist conspiracy to subvert and ultimately to de-
stroy their governnieut and institutions.
The Connnittee on Un-American Activities, as you know, has no
prosecutor role. It does not try people, regardless of how deeply
they may be enmeshed in Communist activities. Nevertheless, I think
it is significant to point out in this connection that all of the laws
which make the prosecution of Communist conspirators possible have
resulted from hearings like these, on the basis of which the Congress
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6457
was able to formulate and enact necessary legislation. "Without the
laws adopted by the Congress, the punishment of quislings, like those
who we have been seeing parade before the committee during the past
few days, would be impossible.
Before we conclude, I would like to express our thanks to the various
people who have helped in the arrangement of these hearings. Those
include Chief Judge Paul Jones, and his staff, who permitted the use
of his courtroom ; Marshal Zavier North, of Cleveland, and his able
deput,v, Matthew Wansack, of Youngstown; the Youngstown Chief
of Police Paul Kress, and his entire department; Postmaster John E.
Dojde, and his secretary, Miss Schorndorf er ; and many others who
have given us very freely of their time and cooperation.
Of course, I particularly want to include the members of the press,
and the members of the radio and television fraternity in this area.
I am wondering if my colleague, Mr. Velde, a former chairman of
the full Committee on Un-American Activities, would care to say a
few words.
Mr. Velde. Yes, Mr, Chairman.
First of all I would like to have the privilege of associating myself
with 3'ou in that very fine statement, and to thank the people of this
area for the very courteous treatment they have given us. I also
want to say to you, Mr. Chairman, that I commend you on the fair
mamier in wliich you handled these hearings here in Youngstown, and
I agree with you that we did elicit very much information which will
be valuable to the Committee on Un-American Activities and the
Congress in promulgating legislation to handle the Communist
menace.
As you know, I chose not to run again for reelection, and I suppose
this will be the last time that I will have the opportunity to serve with
you and our staff. I want to say it has been a pleasure and privilege
over the last few years of being with you on the Un-American Activ-
ities Committee.
Mr. Willis. Let me say that your decision not to return to Con-
gress was a disappointment to all your colleagues in the Congress, but
particularly to your associates on this very vital committee, which has
charge of trying to combat, control, and, we hope, ultimately to exter-
minate all subversive activities in our great land.
Mr. Velde. Thank you very kindly.
Mr. Willis. I wish, on behalf of our colleagues on the committee,
to wish you the best of luck and success in your new chosen field of
endeavor.
Mr, Velde. Thank j^ou.
I think it miglit not be out of the way, also, to say a few words of
commendation about our very able staff. I think Mr. Arens has
demonstrated a legal ability of a very high type in handling the
examination of all the witnesses that we have had here in Young-s-
town. Of course, if it had not been for the assistance given by the
very able investigators, Donald Appell and George Williams,' that
would not have been possible. I wish to include in my connnendation
Mr. Richard Weil, who has also been of great assistance. These men
have all done excellent jobs.
Mr. Willis. This will conclude the hearings.
(Thereupon, at 5 p. m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene
pursuant to the call of the chairman.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
MONDAY, DECEMBER 3, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Chicago^ III.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in room 209,
Federal courthouse, Chicago, 111., Hon. James B. Frazier, Jr. (chair-
man of the subcommittee) , presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives James B. Frazier, Jr.,
of Tennessee; Harold H. Velde, of Illinois; Donald L. Jackson, of
California ; and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; Donald T. Appell,
investigator ; and Richard S. Weil, staff member.
(Present at the time of convening: Representatives James B. Fra-
zier, Jr., Harold H. Velde, Donald L. Jackson, and Gordon H.
Scherer. )
Mr. Frazier. The subcommittee will come to order.
This morning the Committee on Un-American Activities, through a
subcommittee composed of Representatives Velde, Jackson, Scherer,
and myself, as chairman, continues its series of hearings on Commu-
nist political subversion — that is, the attempts of the Communist Party
and its confederate organizations to destroy the security programs of
the legislative and executive branches of the Government.
The Committee on Un-American Activities has already conducted
hearings on this topic in Washington and other cities. The evidence
received by the committee thus far presents an appalling picture of a
concerted effort by the Communist Party of the United States and the
Soviet Union to strip this Nation of its vital weapons of defense
against ultimate overthrow by an alien conspiracy.
In the hearings now opening in Chicago the committee expects to
hear about 20 witnesses.
Among the principal focuses of our investigation here are the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and its accessory
organizations in this area. These include the Midwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and the INIichigan Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
These instruments of the Communist Party and numerous front
groups created and controlled by them are determined to emxasculate
our immigration and nationality laws of the provisions which make
possible the deportation of Communist agents who have obtained resi-
dence in the United States.
6459
6460 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The hearings of the committee thus far have demonstrated beyond
a doubt that the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born is under the exclusive domination of the Communist Party of
the United States, and that the American committee, in turn, directs
the activities of its various components despite the claim of the
American committee that tlie regional organizations are independent.
Our committee is also seeking further information on the efforts of
the Communist Party to destroy the Smith Act, the Internal Security
Act, the Communist Control Act, and similar legislation.
It has come to the attention of the Committee on Un-American
Activities that the Communist Party in this area is preparing a sur-
prise reception for us : specifically, that the Communists are solicit-
ing petitions of protest from various non-Communist organizations in
an attempt to make the security laws themselves, rather than the activi-
ties of the Communist Party, the subject of these hearings.
I would like to stress that these hearings do not concern the merits
or lack of merits of any particular law.
Our purpose here is not to participate in legislative controversy,
but solely to examine the vast program of Communist propaganda,
infiltration, and subversion against these laws.
Let no one underestimate the extent of the problem. The testimony
before this committee has already established the fact that the Com-
munist Party throughout the United States has created literally
hundreds of separate front organizations to accomplish its illicit pur-
poses of political subversion.
In the neighboring State of Michigan alone some 80 separate organi-
zations have been created by the Communist Party for its campaign
just against the Immigration and Nationality Act.
We are confident that the information which the committee obtains
during this series of hearings will reveal to the American people the
extent of this political subversion by the agents of the Kremlin, and
will enable us to sponsor legislative recommendations to aid the Gov-
ernment of tlie United States further in combating the operation of
the Communist apparatus.
You people are here as the guests of the committee. The committee
will not tolerate any outburst or expression from the spectators and
guests here either favorably or unfavorably. Are you ready, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Frazier. Call your first witness.
Mr, Arens, Mr, Saul Grossman. Kindly come forward. Please
remain standing, Mr. Grossman, while the chairman administers an
oath to you.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony to be given will be the truth, the whole truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Grossman, I do,
Mr. Frazier. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF SAUL GROSSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
GEORGE W. CROCKETT, JR.
Mr. Arens, Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6461
Mr, G'ROSSMAN. My name is Saul Grossman. I reside at 2945
Tusedo, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. Mr Grossman, you are appearing in response to a sub-
pena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities?
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Grossman. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Grossman. I am.
Mr. x\rens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Crockett. George W. Crockett, Jr., attorney-at-law, 3220
Cadillac Tower, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Grossman, I don't believe that the record reflects
accurately your occupation. Would you kindly tell us your oc-
cupation.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us why ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question as well.
Mr. Arens. Mr Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gross:man, I decline to answer that question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this
committee truthfully what your present occupation is you would be
supplying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I think we should advise the witness
that if he does not answer that question "Yes'' or "No," in accordance
with a decision of the Supreme Court of this country, he would be
subjecting liimself to contempt.
The question is whether he is, in good faith. That is the question
asked by counsel — whether he is, in good faith, reljdng on the fifth
amendment. That is the question put to him. So he must answer that
question "Yes" or "No." He cannot decline to answer that question
on the basis of the fifth amendment. I am merely making the state-
ment to warn the witness that, in view of that decision, he is placing
himself in contempt.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Is there a question?
Mr. Arens. So there may be no question about the status of this
record, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness now be
ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not he
6462 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
honestly apprehends that if he told this committee truthfully what
his present occupation is he would be supplying information which
might be used against him in a criminal proceeding.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. You are so directed.
Mr. Grossman. I understand that all that question asked for is a
statement from me that the answer to such a question may incriminate
me. And I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, the subpena pursuant to wliich
you are appearing today requires you to bring certain documents and
to produce those before this committee ; does it not ?
Mr. Grossman. Yes.
Mr. Aeexs. Do you have in your custody and control the documents
called for in the subpena ?
Mr. Grossman. The subpena served upon me, on November 21
Mr. Arens. Just answer that question, please.
Mr. Grossman. I am answering that question.
Mr. Arens. Yv'e don't want a read statement. Just tell us now:
Do you have the custody and control of the documents called for in
this subpena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I have the answer to that question
written out, and it is very brief.
Mr. Arens. Tell us "Yes" or "No" whether or not you have custody
and control of the documents called for in the subpena.
Mr. Frazier. Just answer the question "Yes" or "No," whether or
not you have them.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I have the custody and control of the documents
which T brought vrith me.
Mr. Arens. Would you now transmit to the custody of the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities the documents called for in the
subpena duces tecum which was served upon you.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I will do so under the condition set forth in this
statement.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect that the witness is ordered now to transmit the custody and
control of these documents to the custody of the Committee on Un-
American Activities.
Mr. Frazier. You are so directed.
Mr. Grossman. I am answering that question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Frazier. Are you delivering the documents to the committee
or are you refusing to deliver them ?
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, may this statement be marked for
identification ?
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly tell us, first of all, who prepared the
statement that you have in your right hand and which you started to
read?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. It was prepared in collaboration with my attorney,
Mr.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6463
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the name of every Communist who, to
your certain knowledge, participated in the preparation of that state-
ment ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this wit-r
ness be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question based on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be, here and now, ordered to transmit to the custody of the com-
mittee the documents in his possession and in his control and in his
custody which are called for in the subpena which was served upon
him.
Mr. Frazier. You are so ordered.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I again ask that this statement be
marked for identification. It indicates the materials I am offering
to the committee.
Mr. Arens. Does that list them? Enumerate them?
Mr. Grossman. It does refer to them; yes. I would like to have
it marked for identification.
Mr. Jackson. May the committee see the statement in question?
Mr. Arens. May I take a look at it?
(Document handed to committee counsel, and by committee coun-
sel, to the chairman.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that at this point
the subpena duces tecum which was served upon this witness be
incorporated in the body of the record.
Mr. Frazier. It may be done.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 286a, b," see appendix, pp. 7591,
7592.)
Mr. Arens. I also request, Mr. Chairman, in the interest of an ex-
peditious operation here, that the many exhibits which we will have in
the course of the next several days, as they are exhibited to the wit-
nesses and identified, have the order of the chairman carried with them
that they be appropriately marked and incorporated in the appendix
of the record. It will save us considerable time rather than to under-
take to procure such an order on each exhibit.
Mr. Frazier. That will be so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Now do you care to respond to the outstanding question
which is the request for you to transmit to the custody of the committee
the records called for in the subpena duces tecum ?
Mr. Grossman. May I have a ruling on this matter?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, you may read it.
Mr. Grossman. Thanks.
Mr. Chairman, the sub])ena served upon me, on November 21, 1956,
in Detroit, is directed to the executive secretary of the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. It calls for the production
before your committee of certain documents, including letters, minutes,
publications of that organization relative to its efforts to bring about
6464 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
the repeal or revision of legislation sponsored or supported by mem-
bers of your committee.
In appearing here and producing the documents called for in the
subpena, I neither admit nor deny association, affiliation, membership
or officership in the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. As to this I claim my privilege under the fifth amendment.
I am submitting to this committee, under protest, all of the docu-
ments of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
called for in this subpena and which were in my possession, custody, or
control at the time I received the subpena.
My protest is based upon my claim that the subpena violates the
rights of free speech, press, and petition guaranteed by the first amend-
ment, and is beyond the authority given this committee in the House
resolution creating this committee.
Further, the subpena violates the right to be secure from unreason-
able search and seizure, protected by the fourth amendment.
Mr. Chairman, here are the documents to which I refer.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly transmit those to Mr. Appell of the
committee staff.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, as Mr. Appell receives cus-
tody of the documents which the witness is transferring to the posses-
sion of the committee, that this record reflect an order from the chair-
man that each of the several documents be appropriately marked for
the purpose of identification and incorporated by reference in this
record or in the appendix.
Mr. Frazier. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Where did you get these documents which you have
just transmitted to the Committee on Un-American Activities?
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 287-300b,'' are reproduced in
the appendix, pp. 7593-7623; the remainder retained in files of the
committee.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, that is answered in my statement.
They are the documents which were in my control or custody at the
time I was subpenaed.
Mr. Arens. Where were they physically located?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, Grossman. I decline to answer that question based on my
previous answer.
Mr, Arens. Were those documents in your custody and control in
an office in the State of Michigan ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Did these documents come into your possession in
the course of the routine performance of an official duty?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Did these documents — and, of course, it is obvious that
1 have not yet had a chance to peruse tliem — but do these documents
contain all letters and copies of letters and all leaflets and documents,
incoming and outgoing, passing between the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, its officers and agents, and the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, its officers and agents,
during the period of January 1, 1953, to October 20, 1956, relating to
certain legislative enactments, including the Smith Act, the Internal
Security Act, the Immigration and Nationality Act, and the like?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6465
Mr. Grossman. The documents submitted are all the documents
called for in the subpena wliich were in my possession, custody, or
control at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. Akens. Are there any docnments in this series of documents
which you have transmitted to the ccuunittee in the nature of corre-
spondence between the Michigan Committee and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
I^fr. Grossman. They are all the documents called for in the sub-
pena and which we
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossivean. I do not believe there is any correspondence included
in those documents.
Mr. Arens. Does the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born have documents in the nature of letters, correspondence, passing
between itself, as an entity, and tlie American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question other than the
answer I have given in my statement.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question,
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. There has been no
invocation in this series of responses of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mv. Grossman. Will you please repeat the question.
^Ir. Arens. Mr. Reporter, would you kindly read the question to
the witness.
( The record was read by the reporter. )
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now do the documents which you have transmitted to
the Committee on Un-American Activities include excerpts from all
minutes of all meetings of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born as further described in the subpena duces tecum?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman, I have previously answered that question, and I will
repeat my answer, that T am submitting all documents of the com-
mittee called for in the subpena which were in my possession, custody,
and control at the time of the service of the subpena.
Mr. Arens. Your answer is not responsive.
T respectfully suggest that you answer the question.
Do these documents contain, and have you transmitted to the com-
mittee pursuant to the subpena duces tecum, the minutes of the meet-
ings of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born as
more specifically described in the subpena duces tecum?
Mr. Grossman. I believe my answer was responsive.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect an order and direction to this witness to answer the question.
6466 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION '
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. So far as I know, the material submitted does not
contain any minutes.
Mr. Arens. Are there any documents of the Michigan Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born which are embraced in the subpena
duces tecum which you have not transmitted to the Committee on Un-
American Activities?
(The witness confers with his counseh)
Mr. Grossman. I repeat the answer I gave previously to this ques-
tion, that I have submitted all of the documents of the committee called
for in the subpena and which were in my possession, custody, or con-
trol at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. ScHERER. That is not the question asked by counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. The question is whether there are any other docu-
ments that he has knowledge of as an officer of the [Michigan] Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. It is obvious we didn't get
them all.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Will you repeat the question, please?
(The record was read by the reporter.)
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Velde,
Jackson, and Scherer.)
Mr. Grossman. I have answered that question in the statement.
But, to the extent that I have not, I rely on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you have knowledge of the existence of correspond-
ence between the Michigan Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born
and the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in the
custody and control of some person other than yourself ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the status of the record at the present
time reflects that this witness has not produced the records and docu-
ments called for in the subpena duces tecum. The record, however,
reflects a statement by himself to the effect that these are the only
documents that he had custody and control of.
In order to make this record crystal clear at this time, I respectfully
suggest that the record now reflect an order and direction by the chair-
man to the witness to produce the documents called for in the subpena
duces tecum which he lias not produced before the committee.
Mr. Frazier. You are so ordered.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I repeat again that I have submitted
all documents of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born called for in the subpena and which were in my possession, cus-
tody, or control at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. SniKRER. Now I have a question.
Where are the other documents we are asking for? Who has
possession ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6467
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I haven't heard you answer it. Where are the other
documents we asked for ?
Mr. Grossman. This is the only answer I am going to give to the
questions of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my ques-
tion.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. If he doesn't know where they are, let him so state. I
think he knows. I don't think he will state he doesn't know.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I previously declined to answer that
question, basing myself on the fifth amendment, and the Chair upheld
my right to do so. I still do so.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I have a question.
Mr. Frazier. Yes, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Following the receipt by you of the subpena did you
transfer physical possession of any documents, correspondence, mem-
bership cards, or any other papers relating to the operation of either
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born or the Amer-
ican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born to any other person?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I will refuse to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. With whom did you confer following receipt of your
subpena other than your attorney?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. Did you meet with any other person for the purpose
of transferring to them or discussing the transfer to them of any of
the documents relating to this matter?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I think that's where they are.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
How can he say that in view of his declination to answer your ques-
tions ? How can he then tell this committee he did transfer to us all of
the documents in his possession at the time he was served with the sub-
pena ?
Mr. Jackson. Did you transfer to the committee, or have you today
transferred to the committee, all of the documents relating to this mat-
ter that were in your posession at the time you were served the sub-
pena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. That is a direct answer to my previous question.
You did not subsequently transfer any documents or any papers
relating to this matter to any other person?
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment now.
You said that you have today transferred to the committee n-1 of
the documents and papers, membership lists and so forth whicli you
had in your physical possession and control at the time the subpena
was served upon you; is that coi-rect?
6468 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. I am sorry. Will you repeat tlie question.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
iVIr. Grossman. Yes.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Those relating to the subpena.
Mr. Jackson. All of those called for in the subpena.
Did you transfer to any person subsequent to the receipt of your
subpena any papers called for in the subpena? Did you make such
transfer subsequent to the receipt of your subpena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. No.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you.
Mr. ScHEREK. Now did you make any transfer of such papers
shortly before the receipt of your subpena when you learned the com-
mittee was subpenaing people in connection with this matter?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Whatever you are referring to, of couree, is not
related to what was referred to in the subpena that was served upon
me.
Mr. ScHEKER. I am referring to what is related in the subpena.
Mr. Gross3ian. I have produced all of the documents the committee
called for in the subpena and which were in my possession, custody,
or control at the time I received the subpena.
Mr. Scherer. My question was, Did you transfer any papers called
for in the subpena shortly before the receipt of the subpena?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question. I don't
know how I am supposed to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Did you give anybody else any papers before the re-
ceipt of this subpena ? Did you transfer any of the documents under
your control ?
Mr. Grossman. I don't Imow how to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I don't know how to phrase it then.
Mr. Velde. Yes or no.
Mr. Grossman. I mean I was asked to bring with me certain docu-
ments called for in a subpena, and I did.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, did the subpena call for production of
membership lists ?
Mr. Arens. No, sir. The subpena called for three general categories
of instruments. One was correspondence between the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. The second general category of doc-
uments called for in the subpena duces tecum are excerpts from min-
utes of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Scherer. Now he said he didn't produce any excerpts from
minutes. Let's make the question specific : Witness, did you transfer
in the last 30 days any excerpts from minutes as called for in the sub-
pena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. You admit you have not produced any excerpts from
the minutes?
Mr. Grossman. These are all of the documents called for in the
subpena Avliich were in my possession, custody, or control at the time
I received the subpena.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6469
Mr. ScHEKER. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask you direct the witness to
answer my question. He has not answered the question.
Mr. Fraziei?. Witness, you are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossmax. I refuse to answer any further questions along those
lines, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. Wait until questions are asked before you refuse to
answer. I think it would be better.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, my associate
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute, Mr. Counsel.
Where are the minutes of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Scherer. Do you know where those minutes are ?
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question.
j\Ir. Scherer. I think you should invoke the fifth amendment if
that is the basis for your reason in refusing to answer my question.
Mr. Grossman. I have counsel. Thank you.
Mr. Scherer. Then I ask that you direct the witness to answer my
question because he has not invoked the fifth amendment. He has
merely refused to answer my question.
Mr. Frazier. Under the situation that has arisen, I direct you to
answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, relying upon the
fifth amendment.
]Mr. Arens. Mr. Grossman, in the documents which you have
transferred to the custody of the committee, I have in my hand at the
present time a letterhead of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, and on the letterhead appears "Executive Secretary,
Saul Grossman." And in the body, or beneath the body of the letter
on the letterhead, appears the signature "Saul Grossman, Executive
Secretary."
My associate, Mr. Appell, will lay that before you now. You look
at that document and please tell this committee whether or not you
are the Saul Grossman who is designated as executive secretary of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. Before I answer that question may I have a refill
of this glass of water ?
Mr. Arens. Surely. Could you answer it while he is doing it? It
would save a little time, if you please.
Mr. Grossman, (after referring to document). I decline to answer
that question, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have in my hand about a dozen documents of a
dozen different organizations in Michigan, all of which documents
were in the documents which 3'ou transmitted to the committer.
(Representative Donald L. Jacfeon returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Arens. (continuing). And I want to have Mr. Appell lay
before you, one by one, each of these documents alluding to a separate
committee, and have you tell this Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties whether or not you know anything about each of these several
85333— 57— pt. 1 22
6470 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
committees or organizations that have documents in the pile of docu-
ments you transmitted to the committee.
The first document is the Gus Polites Defense Committee, 5258
Calhoun Street, Dearborn, Mich., and that says : "Protect your citizen-
ship. Gus Polites. Defend his."
(SeeexhibitNo. 287a, b, appendix, pp. 7593,7594.) _
According to the body of this document, Gus Polites is an active
participant in the fight to repeal the Walter-McCarran Act, he is
a fighter for peace, and fighter for lots of things.
Please look at this little pamphlet on the Gus Polites Defense Com-
mittee which was in the stack of documents Yv'hich you transmitted to
the committee, and tell the Committee on Un-American Activities
whether or not this Gus Polites Defense Committee is controlled, to
your certain knowledge, by the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Is that Gus Polites Defense Committee an entity created
by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born'^
Mr. Grossman. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you another document which was in
this stack of documents which you transmitted to the committee, the
Peggy Wellman Defense Committee, room 920, 2033 Park Avenue,
Detroit 26, Mich., in which it is set forth that this lady Peggy Well-
man is being deported like 10,000 other people under the McCarran-
Walter Act. The recipient of the pamphlet is urged to send a con-
tribution, urged to contact various officials of the Government, in-
sisting upon a repeal of the security provisions of the Walter-Mc-
Carran Act.
(See exhibit No. 288a-d, appendix, pp. 7595-7598.)
Now this document was one of the documents which you just trans-
mitted to our committee here. Please look at this document of the
Peggy Wellman Defense Committee and tell the Un-American Activ-
ities Committee whether or not the Peggy Wellman Defense Com-
mittee was created by the Communist conspiracy to your certain
knowledge.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Who is Peggy Wellman ?
Mr. Frazier. Wait a minute.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, relying on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is Peggy Wellman?
Mr. Grossman. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. She was a Communist, was she not, up for deportation
under the Walter-McCarran Act? Isn't that correct?
Mr. Grossman. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document which you just trans-
mitted to the committee — Fred Williams Defense Committee, Local
208, UAW-CIO, 2123 Gratiot Avenue, Detroit, Mich. We see here
a picture of the Statue of Liberty and see the Walter-McCarran
Act desecrating the Statue of Liberty. We see a call upon the re-
cipients to speak against the infamous Walter-McCarran Act. Its
design, according to this pamphlet, is to intimidate one-fourth of the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6471
population of the United States, and is directed against a number of
people, including Fred Williams.
(See exhibit No. 289a, b, appendix, pp. 7599, 7600.)
Please tell the committee whether or not you have certain knowl-
edge that the Fred Williams Defense Committee was created by the
Communist conspiracy in Michigan as an entity under the Michigan
Committee for Protection of the Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another document which you have
transmitted to this Committee on Un-American Activities of the
Congress. It is a pamphlet of the Greek- American Defense Commit-
tee, 920 Charlevoix Building, 2033 Park Avenue, Detroit, Mich.
Raise your voice ! An atrocity is being committed before our eyes.
This one man is used as an illustration, who has a name very diflScult
to pronomice— Parashiades — Greek American, who is up for deporta-
tion because he belonged to a political oroauization.
(See exhibit No. 290, appendix, p. 760L)
Now tell the Committee on Un-American Activities whether this
Greek- American Defense Committee is an entity, to your certain
knowledge, which was created by the Communist conspiracy in
Michigan.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question, but support every-
thing that is said in that leaflet.
Mi\ Arens. Let me have it back and see if you will support it under
oath.
Was, to your certain knoAvledge, Mr. Parashiades a member only of
a political party or was he, on the other hand, a member of the Com-
munist conspiratorial apparatus ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Then you are not going to, while you are under oath,
support everything that is in this pamphlet. Is that correct?
Mr. Grossman. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question again. You have just told us and
opened the door, that you are going to support everything in that
pamphlet.
Tell the committee whether or not, to your certain knowledge, the
Greek-American Defense Committee is located at 920 Charlevoix
Building in Detroit.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I ;im here under compulsion, and I
refuse to disclose any information to this committee, relying on the
fifth amendment when I may do so.
What I offer voluntarily is my business.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the witness has opened the door by
saying he supports everything in this pamphlet. That is a volun-
teered statement. Therefore, he has waived any immunity respect-
ing the contents of this pamphlet, or his knowledge of the contents
of this pamphlet.
I, therefore, request that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer the last principal question.
Mr. Frazier. In view of that fact, you are directed to answer the
question.
6472 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, based on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Xow do you know a man by the name of Gus Polites
who is alhided to in this pamphlet of the Greek- American Defense
Committee ?
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. Do yon know whether or not he is a Communist?
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. This pamphlet talks about phony charges against
Parashiades.
Was he, to your certain knowledge, a member of the Conimmiist
Party, and were these charges against him phony?
Mr. Grossman^. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs, Now I want to invite your attention to still another
pamphlet which was in the stack of pamphlets and material which
you transmitted to the committee. It is published by the Stanley
Nowak Defense Committee. And again we see the Statue of Liberty
and the Emma Lazarus poem with the statue of fi^edom. We see a
sad case of Stanley Nowak who is under deportation because of politi-
cal affiliations and political beliefs, and the vicious government is try-
ing to revoke his citizenship. And many, many others, according to
this pamphlet, are under unwarranted attack all because of the Walter-
McCarran Act.
(SeeexhibitNo. 291, appendix, pp. 7602-7613.) •
Now would you kindly tell us whether or not the Stanley Nowak
Defense Committee was, to your certain knowledge, created by the
Communist conspiracy in Michigan as a subsidiary' organization of
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. Now I have still another pamphlet I want to invite
your attention to — and we have not had a chance to do more than just
glance at this array of pamphlets which you have presented to the
committee — and this again is a pamphlet or leaflet which you pre-
sented to the committee. It is the Italian-American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, 1442 Griswold Street, room 303, Detroit
26, Mich.
According to this pamphlet, the vicious McCarran-Walter Act is
being used to deport a man who is portrayed here in his army miiform.
And the recipient of the leaflet is requested to get organizations nnd
cluirch groups to demand that deportation proceedings against this
person be dropped.
Kindly look at this pamphlet, if j^ou please, sir, and tell the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities whether or not. to your certain
knowledge, the Italian-American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Ijorn was created and controlled by the Communist conspiracy to your
certain knowledge.
(See exhibit No. 292, appendix, p. 7614.)
]\Ir. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question.
]\[r. ^Vrexs. Now I have still another pamphlet which was in this
stack of pamphlets which you transmitted to the committee. It is a
bulletin of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
dated July 5, 1955, with reference to a number of organizations anii
detense committees. And this bulletin was in the stack of bulletins
and leaflets which you have transmitted to the custody of the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6473
Look at this bulletin, sir, and tell this Conunittee on Un-American
Activities, while you are under oath, whether or not, to your certain
knowledg:e, the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
and the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born are
integral parts of the same operation.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Grossman. What same operation are you referring to?
Mr. Arens. The operation of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, pursuant to tlie arrangements of
this committee, a witness is entitled to receive his pay for his trans-
portation and for his per diem, witness fee. But to do so it is neces-
sary that he sign a pay voucher.
Without in any sense undertaking to be surreptitious about it, I say
now I want to have this voucher presented to you for the purpose of
procuring your signature so that your signature can, on this record,
he compared with other signatures of Saul Grossman affixed to vari-
ous letterheads of the Michigan Connnittee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Mr. Appell, will you presently lay this voucher before Mr. Gross-
man and show him where the payee is to sign, witli the request from
me now that he affix his signature to the pay voucher.
Mr. Grossman. Have you figured out how much I am entitled to?
Mr. Arens. You will receive the necessary
Mr. Grossman. Have you figured it out ? Is it on there ?
Mr. Arens. Will you sign it as soon as it is filled out? It is just
a matter of figuring it out to fill it out.
Mr. Grossman. Will you fill it out ?
Mr. Arens. Will you sign it?
Mr. Grossman. Will you fill it out?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that you order
and direct the witness to answer whether or not he will sign this
Toucher while he is under oath.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to sign the voucher when it is prop-
erly filled out. I can't direct him to sign it before it is filled out.
Mr. Arens. I ask that you direct him to answer the question
whether or not he will sign it when it is filled out.
Mr. Grossman. I have to see it first.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, in order to save
time on this record, if, as. and when this witness signs the pay voucher
made out to himself, as Mr. Appell will display to him either while
he is under oath or after he is released from testifying, that that part
of his pay voucher bearing his signature be incorporated in the body
of the record so that it may be used for comparison with other signa-
tures which we have of Saul Grossman.
Mr. Frazier. It is so directed.
Mr. Jackson. Might we save some time by asking the witness if
he will sign his name ?
Do you have any objection to that, Mr. Grossman?
Mr. Grossman. Yes ; I have objection.
Mr. Velde. You mean objection to signing his name on a blank
jDiece of paper?
Mr. Jackson. You do object to signing your name?
6474 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. Yes. By the way, I would sign
Mr. Velde. "Wliy do j'ou object to that ?
Mr. Grossman. I don't object to signing the pay voucher, by the
way. I just want it filled out. You want me to sign a blank piece of
paper.
Mr. Velde. You will sign a pay voucher?
Mr. Grossman. Of course, I will. I am entitled to my mileage and
allowances. There is no attempt to conceal anything.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 301," see appendix, p. 7624.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Grossman, I now lay before you a photostatic copy
of each of two documents. One is an application for a special beer
and wine license, filed with the Michigan Liquor Control Commission
by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, 2033
Park Avenue, Detroit, bearing the signature of Mignon Wellman and
Saul Grossman. And then the second document is the surety bond
application submitted with the first document.
Please look at these two documents and tell the Committee on Un-
American Activities whether or not these documents present a true and
correct reproduction of your signature as affixed to the originals.
(Document marked "Exhibit ISFo. 302a, b." see appendix, pp. 7625,
7626.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect an order and direction to the witness to answer the question.
And I say, without meaning to take advantage of you at all, that
you have not invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite yonv attention to an article
appearing in the Detroit News, July 22, 1949, and bearing in mind, if
you please, the date, sir, according to the first paragraph of this
article —
Three Detroit Italian born men were named by Federal authorities as members
of organizations advocating overthrow of the United States Government by
force.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 303," see appendix, p. 7627.)
Mr. Arens. Please look at this article, Mr. Grossman, and tell the
Committee on Un-American Activities if it is not a fact that the inci-
dent alluded to in this article was the incident which precipitated the
formation of the Micliigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document handed to the witness.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(Committee members present : Representatives Frazier, Velde, Jack-
son, and Schercr.)
Mr. Grossman. I i-efuse to answer.
My. Arens. Why?
My. Gross3ian. The same reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Give them again then, please. Let's have the record
clear. Why do you refuse to answer ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6475
Mr. (iKossMAN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question. There has been no invocation of the
fifth amendment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Fraziek. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I am sorry. Was there
Did the Chair speak?
Mr. Frazier. I said I directed you to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Witness, I lay before you a photostatic copy of
The Lamp, which is, according to its masthead, the official publica-
tion of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This is the issue of January 1950. And in this issue we see reference
to the Detroit Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, organized
in November, holding a very successful picket line at the Immigration
and Naturalization Service during the Anna Ganley deportation
hearings.
(See exhibit No. 14, appendix, pp. 7111, 7112.)
I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny the fact that
the Detroit Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was the pre-
decessor organization of the Michigan Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born and that it, likewise, was created and controlled by the
Communist conspiracy in the State of Michigan.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I would like to have you look at a photograph from
the Detroit News, October 11, 1948, of an individual using a fire
hydrant for the purpose of affixing a placard to a stick. Right adja-
cent to the stick is a sign "Protest Indictment of 12 Communist
Leaders."
Look at this photograph and tell this Committee on Un-American
Activities if you can identify that individual and be helpful to your
Government with respect to its activities to root out subversives.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 304," see appendix, p. 7628.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
]\Ir. Jackson. I ask that the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Arens. That photograph is a photograph of you, is it not ?
Mr. Grossiman. Plow anybody can identify anything in this picture
is beyond me.
Mr. Arens. Just tell this committee whether or not you have a
recollection that that is your photograph.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this
committee while you are under oath whether or not that is your photo-
graph you would be supplying information which might be used
a.gainst you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
f)476 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Aeens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
leflect that this witness be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Arkns. And I say that question was asked, among other reasons,
to test the good faith of this witness because of his facetious attitude
with reference to the photograph.
(The witness confers witli his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I object to that remark by counsel.
Mr. Arens. Then just stand up while you are under oath and tell
this committee whether or not you honestly anticipate that if you
told the committee while you are under oath if that is your photograph
you would be supplying information which can be used against you
in a criminal proceeding.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I refuse to answer that question, relying on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to still another edi-
tion of The Lamp of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. It is the issue of February-March, 1950, and alludes
here to the establishment and creation of a Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, which established offices at room 424,
140 Cadillac Square, Detroit, Mich.
(See exhibit No. 9, appendix, pp. 7102, 7103.)
And, curiously, there is a name here that has been a name raised in
our lecord in the last hour or so. Mr. Saul Grossman is serving as
secretary.
And the committee scheduled a Michigan State Action Conference.
It also tells about the establishment of an Andrulis Defense
Committee.
Please look at this document and tell the committee whether or not
you are the Saul Grossman alluded to in connection with the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. This Andrulis Defense Committee has held 2 or 3 mass
meetings here in Chicago in addition to the mass meetings held in
Detroit, all in the course of the last several weeks. Is that not correct ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness be directed. It is quite obvious,
Mr. Chairman, the witness is simply entering a declination.
Unless there is a direction, he is not invoking his constitutional
privilege.
Mr. Frazier. You are quite right.
You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. "Who is Vincent Andrulis?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know him ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6477
Mr. Arens. You had your picture taken with him not too long ago,
didn't you ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer.
Mr. iVRENS. I want to exhibit to you now an article bearing a photo-
graph. They are an article and photograph from the Detroit News
of February 27, 1950.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 305 and 306," see appendix, pp.
7629,7630.)
According to this article, loyal Americans of Lithuanian descent
issued a statement which read, in part, as follows :
A Communist fifth column has long been busy in this free country. * * *
With deep regret we admit that among the Moscow agents are some individ-
uals of Lithuanian origin. We repudiate these traitors and will work to expose
them.
Then we have here a photograph, right here in connection with this
article, of one Vincent Andrulis. And then he is accompanied here by
one of his defenders, according to the article, one Saul Grossman, iden-
tified under the photogi-aph as executive secretary of the Michigan
Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born.
Look at that article and that photograph and see if you can't help
your Government by giving us a verification of the authenticity of that
identification.
Mr. Grossman, I decline to answer.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer, Mr. Witness.
i^Ir. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, based on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Your interest has expanded in the course of the last
few years from immigration matters into other anti-Communist leg-
islation, has it not ?
]Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Well, I want to exhibit to you now a document pub-
lished by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
Saul Grossman, executive secretary. And it calls for the defeat of
the Hobbs bill, to stop deportation hysteria, prevent annulment of
citizenship, and attacking various legislative actions by the Congress,
all issued by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
Saul Grossman, executive secretary.
Look at this and tell this committee while you are under oath if you
cannot help the Government of the country under whose flag you have
protection by tellino^ us whether or not, to your certain knowledge,
that leaflet was published by people known by you to be in the interna-
tional Communist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 307 a-d," see appendix, pp. 7631-
7634.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite your attention to still another
exhibit.
This in an organ of tlie American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, the Lamp. It tells about a Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born holding a conference at Ford Local 600
auditorium in Michigan. It tells a good deal about the activities of
this Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, about
the establishment of a number of subordinate committees.
6478 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not, to your
certain knowledt^e, the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born held this conference as indicated in the Lamp of August 1951.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you a photostatic reproduction of the official
summary of proceedings of this conference alluded to in the preceding
exhibit, held at Ford Local 600 auditorium, and I ask you if you will
kindly tell us who, to your certain knowledge, of the number of persons
alluded to as leaders of the conference, including yourself — Saul
Grossman, executive secretary of the Micliigan Committee lor Pro-
tection of Foreign Born^ — are members of the Communist conspira-
torial apparatus.
(See exhibit No. 41, appendix, pp. 7157, 7158.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
This is the last time I will warn him.
He has not invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Grossman, if you do not answer that you fear your answers
to these questions would incriminate you, you have no right to refuse to
answer those questions.
Mr. Fr.\zier. Mr. Witness, you are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question,- basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Frazier. You will save a lot of time when you decline if you
will state that.
Mr. Grossman. Well, I respectfull}^ submit to the chair that I am
not required to answer the questions when the counsel asked me.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document, a reproduction of
still another issue of the Lamp, with reference to this session at Ford
Auditorium, in which is set forth the number of speakers who spoke
there, including a number of people identified with the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born: Harriet Barron, Attorneys
Carol King and George Crockett, Charles Hill and others.
Kindly look at this exhibit and see if that might refresh your recol-
lection with reference to that meeting. And tell us whether or not,
to your certain knowledge, these people from the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born did occupy positions of leadership in
this Michigan Conference for Protection of Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 20, appendix, p. 7119.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now did you participate in a national conference on
stopping deportation and attacking the immigration laws right here
in Chicago on June 9, 1951 ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
]\fr. Arens. I have here in my hand a summary of the proceedings,
and in these proceedings Abner Green tells tlie executive committee
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born that the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has created 100
organizations in 15 key States all designed to destroy the Walter-
McCarran Act and create sentiment across the Nation, at the cross-
roads, to bring pressure on Congress to destroy the law.
Were you in attendance at that session ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6479
Mr. GroSvSMAn. I decline to answer that question.
IVIr. Arens. Now I show you still another exhibit. It is an exhibit
of the National Conference of Deportee Defense Committees, which
myriad number of defense committees all assembled here in Chicago
for the purpose of undertaking: to block the deportation of Commu-
nist agents.
Now look at this document and tell this committee whether or not
you are the Saul Grossman alluded to in here as representing the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 42, appendix, pp. 7158-7160.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know John Gallo, G-a-1-l-o ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
i\Ir. Fr.\zier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, basing myself
on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the 20th anniversary national confer-
ence of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born held
December 1951 ?
Mr. GROSS?.rAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have in my hand a photostatic copy of a letterhead
of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, signed
Saul Grossman, executive secretary, in which there is an appeal for
funds and a request tliat all organizations that receive this document
organize and send delegations to Washington and contact the various
Senators and Congressmen, that they vigorously protest the victims
of the Smith Act and of the McCarran Act — that is the Internal
Security Act — and the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Please look at this document and then tell this committee whether
or not you are registered under the Lobbying Act of the United States
Congress.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that he answer
the question as to whether or not lie is registered under the Lobbying
Act of the United States Congress, and that he either answer it or not
answer it at liis peril because that is a matter of public record.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to ansA\'er that question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another exhibit. It is a leaflet issued
by the Polish-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
And in this pamphlet they indicate a number of offices of the American
Committee for Protection of Foi'eign Born, about a dozen different
offices around the country in various States.
This pamphlet is entitled "Know Your Rights." It tells about liow
the vicious McCarran-Walter Act is being used to denaturalize citizens
because of political beliefs and political affiliations, liow^ noncitizens
are being denaturalized just because they refuse to answer questions.
You look at this pamphlet and tell tliis committee whether or not,
to your certain knowJedge, the Polisli-American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born was created and is controlled by the Commu-
nist consi^iracy in the United States.
g480 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 308a, b," see appendix, pp. 7635,.
7636.)
Mr. Gkossmax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another document. It is a letterhead
of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And,
curiously enough, this is sio:ned by Margaret Fishman for Provisional
Committee for Youth Participation.
It seems the committee is going to get some youth now to participate-
Kindly look at this document and tell the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities whether or not, to your certain Imowledge, Margaret
Fishman did head a Provisional Committee for Youth Participation
in the activities of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 309," see appendix, p. 7637.)
(The witness confers with his counsel, and examines the document.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Wliy?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this i-ecord
reflect an order to this witness to answer the question.
He Imows and his counsel knows he has no riglit to refuse to answer
these questions unless he honestly apprehends that the answer would
supply information which could be used against him in a criminal
proceeding.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Witness, you are again directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to respectfully state
again
Mr. Frazier. Now you only have to state your reasons for declining.
If you decline because of the fifth amendment the committee goes
no further into it.
Mr. Grossman. I think the chair should also enlighten the counsel
that I don't have to answer his questions in the way that he wants me
to answer it.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the last outstanding question at his peril.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Grossman, are you aware of the fact that the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has been cited by the
Attorney General and by the Un-American Activities Committee as a
subversive organization ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Velde. I move that you direct him to answer the question.
Mr. Fr^vzier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer that
question, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have in my hand pliotostatic reproductions of some
financial records of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born: Fight Back Fund Drive to Defend the Rights of Foreign-
Born Americans.
And there are about two dozen organizations, almost all nationality
groups — Italian- Americans, Mexican-Americans, Finnish- Americans
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6481
and the like, about two dozen organizations. And opposite the name
of each of these various organizations are items showing a quota to be
established and funds raised to date, all on the letterhead of the Michi-
gan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, showmg very sub-
stantial funds elicited from these some 2- or 3-dozen nationality-group
organizations in Detroit.
Kindly look at the documents and tell this committee while j^ou are
under oath whether or not those funds were solicited by the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born from those numerous
nationality groups in residency in Detroit or in jSIichigan.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 310 and 311," see appendix,
pp. 7638, 7639.)
(The witness and his counsel examine the document.)
Mr. Arens. You will observe that the quotas established there are
several thousand dollars, all to be collected by the Michigan Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that quastion.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Fr^^zier. You are ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I respectfully decline to answer that question, basing
myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I show you a mimeographed announcement on the
letterhead of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
of a meeting to he held in the Hotel Tuller, Detroit, Mich., all for the
purpose of creating sentiment and action to repeal the Walter-McCar-
ran Act and to defend certain of its victims.
Kindly look at that announcement and tell this committee whether
or not you set that meeting up.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another document. It is the proceed-
ings of the Michigan Conference To Repeal the "VValter-McCarran
Law and Defend the Rights of Foreign-Born Americans.
According to these proceedings, representatives from all over the
United States were in attendance. Curiously enough, one of the men
in leadership position here is a Mr. Saul Grossman, executive secretary
of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Look at that document and see if you can't help your Government
by identifying it and attesting to its authenticity.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answ^er that question.
Mr. Arens. You will observe in this first proceeding that Mr. Carl
Marzani was the main si)eaker of the afternoon.
Tell the committee, while you are under oath, who was Carl Marzani
and what was he doing at that meeting.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer tliat question.
Mr. Arens. I have in my hand a release by the ^Michigan Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign 15orn : "Congress Urged to Declare
Moratorium on Deportations and Denaturalizations," calling upon the
recipient organization to join this campaign to send delegations to
Wasliington to contact the local Congressmen and Senators and ask
them to take a public position on this vital matter of defending the
6482 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
victims of the Walter-McCarran law, all a key issue of this confer-
ence.
Now look at this document I have in my hand. And, before you
answer it, tell this committee if you have information on the depor-
tation proceedings against a single individual who was defended by
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in a depor-
tation proceeding who was not, to your certain knowledge, a member
of the Communist conspiracy.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 312a, b," see appendix, pp. 7640,
7641.)
Mr. GROSs^rAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Akens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to attirm or
deny the fact that every individual defended by the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born was a member of the Commu-
nist conspiracy.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer tliat
question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question, basing myself on
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Plere is still another conference held at the pentliouse
of the Metropolitan Building, Woodward and Broadway : "Call to
a Conference to Protect the Citizenship of Foreign-Born Americans"
and to repeal the Walter-McCarran law, urging everyone to write
letters and to contact their Congressmen to repeal the Walter-McCJar-
ran law, and protesting the arrest of certain innocent people, listing
liere a number of the innocent victims of the Walter-McCarran Act.
all under the auspices of the Michigan Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born.
Please look at that document, sir, and see if you can't verify its
authenticity, to serve your government.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 313," see appendix, pp. 7642,
7643.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question.
I respectfully' suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be ordered
and directed to answer that last outstanding question.
Mr. Frazieh. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman, 1 decline to answer the question, based on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. You have been the chairman of the resolutions com-
mittee of most of these national conferences in which resolutions have
l)een passed right and left condemning the Walter-McCarran Act, the
Internal Security Act, the Smith Act, tlie Communist Conti-ol Act,
and other items of legislation all designed to ferret out those who
would destroy this great Republic.
Is that not true?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens, I have here still another document. It is addressed to
all trade-union officers, editors, educational directors.
The onolosed analysis of the Walter-McCarran Act was prepared primarily
for use by union officials and editors of labor publications as source and back-
ground material.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6483
It highlights sections of the law. It is to be useful in preparing
articles, editorials, speeches, and additional information will be sent
upon request. And :
We firmly believe that the widespread dissemination of facts on the Walter-
McCarran Act will help translate into reality trade-union resolutions calling for
repeal of the law.
That is signed by Saul Grossman, executive secretary.
See if you can't help your government by identifying the authen-
ticity or verifying the authenticity of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 314," see appendix, p. 7644.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. I have still another document I thought might be
of interest to you: Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, Saul Grossman, executive secretary, addressed to "Dear can-
didate for public office."
And connected hereto is a little poll of the candidate for public
office after he has received this analysis of the Walter-JSIcCarran Act
and after his attention has been directed to resolutions of a great
number of civic, fraternal, veteran, religious, labor groups attacking
the Walter-McCarran Act, and after it has been said that all these
groups are going to be dedicated to retiring from Congress those
who won't vote to repeal the Walter-McCarran Act.
Kindly look at that document and tell us while you are under oath,
sir, if that document was, to your certain knowledge, prepared by
people known by you to be members of the Communist conspiratorial
apparatus.
(See exhibit No. 204, appendix, p. 7616.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document which I should like to
direct your attention to. It is a photostatic copy of a letter dated
December 28, 1954, signed by Kev. Paul Johnson Allured, of Lansing,
Mich., and 2 or 3 preachers or pastors, all on the letterhead of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, saying, in
effect, that the act offends tolerance and ofi'ends liberty and the tradi-
tional concept of what constitutes due process and the like.
Please tell the committee while you are under oath whether or not
that letter was prepared by a member of the Communist conspiratorial
api)aratus and those signatures were procured by a person known by
you to be in the Connnunist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 315," see appendix, p. 7645.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document to which I should like to
invite your attention. It is a mimeographed letter dated October
19, 1955, on the letterhead of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. It is addressed to all candidates for public office in
the 15th Congressional District, calling for basic changes in the
Walter-McCarran Act, and containing a form letter which is being
sent to the Judiciary Connnittee of the United States Senate, listing
a number of religious, labor, fraternal, veterans', and civic grouj^s
representing millions of Americans, all condemning the Waltei--
McCarran law as "racist, discriminatory, and undemocratic."
It has an analysis and comparison here of what the law is and what
it ouaht to be.
6484 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Curiously enough, the provisions which are analyzed are exclusively
the security provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at this document and its accompanying document, and
tell this committee whether or not, to your certain knowledge, this
publication, this release, emanated from a source known by you to
be under the discipline of the Communist conspirational apparatus.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 316a-c," see appendix, pp. 7646-
7648.)
Mr. Grossman. From your reading of it, it sounds like a very good
letter to have gone out to people.
Mr. Arens. You just keep on talking.
Tell us what you loiow about the letter.
Mr. Gross]vl\n. I don't want to answer any questions about it.
Mr. Arens. Do you endorse tlie contents of the letter?
Mr. Grossman. I don't wish to answer any questions about it.
Mr. Arens. I show you a document which is a mimeogi'aphed sheet
headed "Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and To
Defend the Rights of Foreign-Born Americans," Sunday, February
27, 1955, under tlie auspices of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, listing a number of cases, 75 people in Michigan
being deported, against whom deportations have been instituted, 25
people being denaturalized, and 500 noncitizens who are being pro-
ceeded against under the Walter-McCarran Act, and telling of the
widespread opposition to this act, and calling upon the recipients to
get resolutions from all kinds of agencies. Federal, State, local, county,
and to write to Governor Williams, Senator McNamara, Congressman
Diggs, and Councilman Lincoln, and other officials.
Tell the committee while you are under oath whether or not, to
your certain knowledge, that document emanated from a source known
by you to be a part of the Communist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Docmnent marked "Exhibit No. 317," see appendix, p. 7649.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. New I show you still another document. It is a mimeo-
graphed paper known as the Defender. According to its masthead,
it is published by the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Please look at this document and tell us if you can identify the
people who appear in positions of leadership in the document as
individuals known by you to be in the Communist conspiratorial
apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 318," see appendix, pp. 7650-
7653.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another document, and that is a mimeo-
graphed copy of a letter dated April 10, 1956, signed Saul Grossman,
executive secretary, which deals with a birthday party which is being
given for Stanley Nowak, all under the auspices of the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. They are goino; to raise
some funds at this birthda}^ party to struggle to defend the citizenship
rights of certain people and to repeal the Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at that and see if you can't help the committee of the
Congress probing subversion, and tell us wliether or not, to your
certain knowledge, that meeting was under the auspices of individuals
known by you to be in the Communist conspiratorial apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 319," see appendix, p. 7654.)
(The witness examines document, and confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6485
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. I have still another exhibit. This exhibit is entitled
"Conference To Eepeal the Walter-McCarran Law and to Defend
the Rights of the Foreign-Born Americans," held May 13, 1956. And
there are a number of sponsors here, all under the auspices of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
We lun-e here, too, the list of the notables sponsoring the conference;
75 in Michigan alone, according to this document, are victims of this
unholy Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at that document and see if you cannot verify the
authenticity of that document for this committee of the Congress.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 320a-c," see appendix, pp. 7655-
7657.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I have an exhibit of the Michigan Conunittee for
Protection of Foreign Born, November 25, 1955, a letter addressed
to "Dear Rose," signed by Saul Grossman. And this "Dear Rose" is
with the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This letter tells about 100 copies of a little booklet to be distributed
at a national conference. And in it, it poses the query as to why
only 1,100 people showed up at the banquet out there in Los Angeles
of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And
it also congratulates Rose on the tremendous victory they won in
getting the Supreme Court to review the Smith Act convictions and
the like.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens (continuing). Please look at this letter signed Saul with
the typewritten name Saul Grossman, and tell this committee whether
or not this Rose is Rose Chernin of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 321," see appendix, p. 7658.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now do you know a person by the name of Louise
Pettibone Smith?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Louise Pettibone Smith identified you while she was un-
der oath before the Subversive Activities Control Board on December
21, 1955, as the executive director of the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
Was she lying or telling the truth?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Back in May of 1954 before the House Committee on
Un-American Activities, a Mr. Mikkelsen, M-i-k-k-e-1-s-e-n, was
sworn and testified before the committee that while he was a member
of the Communist Party he knew you as a Communist.
Was Mikkelsen lying'^or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. In May of 1954, again another person, a Mrs. Baldwin,
testified before the Committee on Un-American Activities that while
she was a member of the Communist Party she knew you as a Com-
mimist and as a member of the 12th Street Club of the Comniunist
Party.
Was she lying or telling the truth?
Mr. Grossman, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiratorial
apparatus ?
85333—57 — pt. 1 23
6486 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Stephen ■
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute.
Witness, do you mean to tell us that you won't tell this committee
whether you have been a member of the Communist
Don't laugh.
Mr. Grossman. I am not laughing. I am speaking to my counsel.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you talking to him ?
Mr. Grossman. Yes, I was.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you finished then?
Mr. Grossman. Yes. You may continue, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, let me ask you this question :
Have you been a member of the Communist Party since the Russians
went into Hungary ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. You mean you won't tell this committee whether or
not you have kept j^our membership in the Communist Party since we
know what happened in Hungary ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer any questions about my personal
beliefs or opinions.
If you wish to make a speech
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking about your
Mr. Grossman. If you wish to make a speech, Mr. Scherer, I am
sure you have the facilities to do so.
Mr. Velde. Will the gentleman yield to me for a question?
Mr. Scherer. Just one second.
I am not asking about your opinions and beliefs. I am asking you
whether you have retained your membership in the Communist Party
since the Russians moved into Hungary.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. Have you protested the Russians' actions in any way ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Mr. Velde. If you were called upon to enter the armed services of
the United States of America would you be willing to fight against
Soviet Russia ?
Mr. Grossman. I was a member of the Armed Forces for 4 years,
Mr. Velde, and I would fight against any enemy of the United States.
Mr, Velde. Just answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Velde. I am sure your records reflect that.
Mr. Grossman. I am still prepared to light against any enemy of
the United States.
jMr. Velde. Would j^ou be on the side of the rebels in Hungary or
on the side of the others?
Mr. Grossman. I am not in Hungary, Mr. Velde. That's for sure.
Mr. Velde. I am sorry. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Grossman. I am not in Hungary.
Mr. Velde. I realize tliat.
Mr. Grossman. My opinion about what I will do in any given cir-
cumstance is based on my knowledge of the facts in each situation.
Mr. Velde. You won't answer the question as to whether you are
on the side of the Soviets or on the side of the rebels?
C03iIMUXlST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6487
Mr. Grossman. Are you asking for my opinion? Do you want a
speech ?
Mr. Velde. How do you feel about it in your own heart ?
Mr. Grossman. I don't think it germane to the purposes of this
committee's inquiry. I don't care to discuss it with you here. If you
are interested in my opinions, Mr. Velde
Mr. Velde. I think it is very germane.
Mr. Grossman. If you are interested in my opinions, Mr. Velde
Mr. Velde. I think you are very dangerous to our security, and I
would like to have you answer that question.
Mr. Grossman. If you are interested in my opinions on the sub-
ject, I will be glad to discuss them with you outside the committee
chambers.
Mr. Velde. "Wliy not here ? This is the forum where you can talk.
Search your soul and tell the people how you feel about the whole
situation.
Mr. Grossman. Were you reelected to Congress this time, Mr,
Velde, in this last election ?
Mr. Velde. That doesn't answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. We are discussing opinions. I was wondering
whether the people in your district thought that you
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Velde retired. He did not run for reelection.
Mr. Grossman. Did you feel that the people of your constituency
didn't have any confidence in your ability to represent them in the
f utui-e ?
Mr. Velde. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Grossman. I would like to ask some questions, too, then, if you
want my opinions. I would like yours.
Mr. Velde. You are in the witness chair. You are not asking the
questions of this committee.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. You have asked me for a personal opinion, Mr.
Velde. You are bound by whatever answers I wish to give to you.
If you don't like my answers I am very sorry.
Mr. Velde. If you are a true American and true patriot you will
answer that question.
Mr. Grossman. That is what you think.
Mr. vScHERER. Mr. Witness, you said you were a member of the
Armed Forces.
While you were a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States were you a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. Were you a member of the Armed Forces, Mr.
Scherer ?
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Witness, your answer is not responsive to the
question. Either answer
Mr. Grossman. I answered the question.
Mr. Frazier. Either answer it or decline to answer.
Mr. Grossman. I think that the
Mr. Frazier. The Chair has treated you very courteously.
Mr. Grossman. I expect to be courteous.
Mr. Frazier. Either answer or decline. Don't come back with
another question to Mr. Scherer.
6488 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. He is asking for opinions.
Mr. Frazier. He asked you if when you were a member of the
Armed Forces were you a member of tlie Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. Whether he was a member of the Coimnunist Party
at the time he was a member of the armed services of the United
States.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. You said you were in the armed services of the
United States.
You were in the armed services of the United States when Russia
was a cobelligerent with the United States ; were you not ?
Mr. Grossman. I was a member of the Armed Forces from 1942
to 1945.
Mr. ScHERER. That is all.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that, in the
presence of this witness, another witness be sworn.
Please come forward, Mr. Stephen J. Schemanske.
Mr. Schemanske, kindly raise your right hand while the chairman
administers an oath to you.
Mr. Frazier. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony about to
be given in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Schemanske. I do.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN J. SCHEMANSKE
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, kindly identify yourself, please, sir.
Kindly identify yourself by name and residence.
Mr. Schemanske. My name is Stephen J. Schemanske. I reside
at 7001 Oakman Street in the city of Dearborn, Mich.
Mr. Arens. I expect, Mr. Schemanske, later on to interrogate you at
length on a number of matters. But, for the present purposes, I
should like to ask you whether or not you have ever been a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Schemanske. I have been a mxember of the Young Communist
League and the Communist Party for approximately 15 years.
Air. Arens. And what were the dates of your membership in the
Communist Party ?
Mr, Schemanske. From the latter part of 1943 to December 1953,
at which time I testified for our Government in the Smith Act trial of
six leading Michigan Communist Party members.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time have an ideological affinity for the
Communist Party during your membership in that organization ? Or
were you, on the other hand, serving your Government as a member
of, or as a representative of, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Schemanske. During my period of membership in the Young
Communist League and the Communist Party I assisted our Govern-
ment and did not believe in the policies and principles of the pro-
grams of the Communist Party during m;^ period of membership.
Mr. Arens. Your sole, exclusive function was to be an undercover
agent in the Communist apparatus at the behest of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation. Is that correct ?
Mr. Schemanske. That is correct.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6489
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, during the course of your member-
ship in the Communist conspiracy as an undercover agent for the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, did you know a person oy the name
of Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know this person as a Communist ?
Mr. Schemanske. I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you see in the courtroom today the person who was
known by you to be the Communist Saul Grossman ?
Mr. Schemanske. I do.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly point him out to the Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Schemanske. It is the person sitting right there that you
interrogated.
TESTIMONY OF SAUL GEOSSMAN— Eesumed
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, you have just heard the testimony
of Mr. Schemanske.
Would you kindly look him in the face so there will not be any
suggestion of a faceless informer. Look him in the face while you are
under oath and tell this Committee on Un-American Activities, when
he identified you as a person known by him to be a Communist, was
he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Just look over there to your left now. Look him in the face and tell
this committee was he lying or was he telling the truth.
Mr. Grossman. I have heard of that as a paid labor spy for the Ford
Motor Car Co., who committed perjury on the witness stand in the
Federal court in Detroit.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. Just answer the question. Just answer the question,
Mr. Witness.
Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Schemanske lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I wouldn't answer any questions put by a profes-
sional, paid informer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, so that there will
be no question at all about this record, that this witness now be ordered
and directed to answer the question as to whether or not Mr. Sche-
manske was lying or telling the truth.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Witness, you are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to state that
Mr. Frazier. You can give your reasons for not answering after
you have declined, if you wish to decline. But you needn't make a
tirade.
Mr. Grossman. I am faced with a perjurer here.
Mr. Arens. Did he perjure himself just now when he identified you
as a Communist?
Mr. Grossman. Would you kindly not interrupt the chairman. Let
me finish answering the question of the chairman.
I must respectfully decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
basing myself on the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Frazier. Proceed, Mr. Arens.
6490 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. You do admit that you know Mr. Schemanske, however ?
(The witness confers with his counseL)
Mr. Grossman. I have heard of him.
Mr. Velde. But do you know him personally?
Mr. Grossmax. I saw him in the courtroom in Detroit at the time
he conmiitted his perjury.
Mr. Velde. Had you seen him before that time?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. SciiFJtER. May I follow through?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Frazier. Go ahead, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. You said you saw him in the courtroom and 3'ou
knew him by reputation.
Is that the only way 3'ou knew this witness here?
Mr. Gross^eax. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. Were you telling the truth when you told us a few
minutes ago that that was the only way you knew him was by reputa-
tion and by seeing him in the courtroom?
Mr. Grossman. I didn't tell you that, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. '\"\niat did you say?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I see.
Mr. Frazier. Proceed.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is that you knew him as a member of the
Communist Party. Isn't it?
Mr. Grossman. Is that a question, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I believe there was a previous direction, Mr. Chair-
man, was there not, on the same issue ?
I am trying to save the time of the attorney.
Mr. Frazier. Just proceed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Is there a direction to answer the question ? He again
is following the policy of not invoking the fifth amendment unless he
is directed to answer the question. I ask that he be directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Frazier. All right. I have directed him to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Grossman. I believe I have answered. Is that correct ?
I decline to answe^r, basing myself on the fifth amendment.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN J. SCHEMANSKE— Eesiimed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, just in a few moments, kindly sum-
marize while you are under oath the dates and circumstances of your
association with Mr. Grossman while 3''ou were an undercover agent
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Communist conspir-
atorial apparatus.
Mr. Schemanske. I have been subpenaed here to appear by this
committee, and I have known Saul Grossman in the Communist Party
cojvijmuis^ist political subversion 6491
for a niiniber of years. And I also liave known liim as executive secre-
tary of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arexs. "Was that while yon were nndercoAer agent for the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. ScHEMAXSKE. That is correct.
Mr. Akexs. Somewliere in the early fifties. Is that correct ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE, That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us, have you ever served in a closed Com-
munist Party meeting with Grossman ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes, I have, on many occasions. I served in
conferences, conventions, and also was present at a language commis-
sion meeting of the Communist Party in which Saul Grossman was
appointed to or elected, I should say, to this language commission of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Where was that held, please, sir ?
Mr. Schemaxske. That was held in November of 1953.
Mr. Arens. '\Miere, please, sir ?
Mr. Schemaxske. At the Cooperative Restaurant located above
Yemans Hall in the city of Hamtramck, Mich.
Mr. Arexs. Did Grossman have a party name ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. No, I clo uot recall Grossman having a party
name.
TESTIMONY OF SAUL GEOSSMAN— Eesumed
j\Ir. Arens. No"vv, Mr. Grossman, was Mr. Schemanske — look him in
the face and tell this committee so there will be no faceless informers
here — look him in the face and tell this committee
]Mr. Grossmax". You M'ouldn't care for me to puke over the table by
looking him in the face.
Mr. Arexs. Tell this committee was he lying or telling the truth?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. AVell, would lie i-espond to a question
Mr. Arex^s. I respectfully ask that the witness
Mr. Grossmax. As a spy for the Ford Motor Car Co. ?
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question.
Mr. Grossman. Don't you think it lowers the prestige of the com-
mittee?
Mr. Fr-\zier. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Arex^s. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question, or decline.
Mr. Grossman. I am sorry. I decline to answer the question, basing
myself on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that we conclude
the staff interrogation of Mr. Grossman. And I would respectfully
request the prospect of a recess now so that we could relax a little bit
and have lunch, and reconvene with Mr. Schemanske for a more
thorough examination.
Mr. Frazier. Are there any questions, Mr. Velde?
Mr. Velde. I have one, briefly.
Is this Michigan Committee -for Protection of Foreign Born a part
and parcel of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
6492 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. To my knowledge, it is.
Mr. Frazier. Any furtlier questions?
Mr. SCHERER. No.
Mr. Frazier. The committee will now be in recess until 2 p. m.
You are excused, Mr. Witness.
Mr. Grossman. I am excused ?
Mr. Frazier. You are excused.
(AVhereupon, at 12 noon, the subcommittee was recessed, to be recon-
vened at 2 p. m., this same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, DECEMBER 3, 1956
(The subcommittee was reconvened at 2:10 p. m., pursuant to
recess. Committee members present: Representatives James B. Fra-
zier, Jr., and Gordon H. Scherer.)
Mr. Frazier. The committee will come to order.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, would you kindly resume the witness
chair.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN J. SCHEMANSKE— Eesumed
Mr. Arens. You were sworn on this record this morning, Mr. Sche-
manske ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes, I was.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give the committee a brief thumb-
nail sketch of your carrer in the Community Party, with particular
reference to the various posts which you held in the Communist
Party as an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. Schemanske. I was automatically transferred into the Com-
munist Party from the Young Communist League in the latter part
of 1943. Prior to this I held membership in the Michigan Young
Communist League approximately 5 years, having joined the Young
Communist League in the latter part of 1938.
For the record, I would like again to add that I did not join the
Young Communist League or the Communist Party because I believed
in its principles or program, but for the specific purpose of obtaining
information on Communist Party activities in connection with my line
of work.
My period of activity in the Michigan Young Communist League
and the Communist Party totaled approximately 15 years, and was
concluded in December of 1953, at which time I was requested by our
Government to testify in the Smith Act trial which resulted in the
conviction of six Michigan Communist Party leaders.
Mr. Arens. Now tell us, if you please, the various clubs of the
Communist Party, various fractions of the Communist Party.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson entered the hearing room at this
point. Committee members present : Representatives Frazier, Jack-
son, and Scherer.)
Mr. Schemanske. During my activity in the Young Communist
League and the Comramiist Party I held various positions. My ini-
tial assignment was treasurer of my respective Young Communist
League branch. Subsequently, in 1942, I was a member of the Dis-
trict Committee and District Council of the Young Communist League
of Michigan.
COMMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6493
In 1942-43 I was appointed as secretai-y-treasurer of the Young
Communist League.
In October 1943, 1 attended a YCL convention in New York City, at
which time the Young Communist league was dissolved and became
known as the American Youth for Democracy.
Following a brief period of membership in the Communist Party,
I was assigned as press director and executive board member of my
respective Communist club, the Michigan Avenue Communist Club.
I was also represented on the West Side Section Committee of the
Communist Party, which committee was representative of Commu-
nist clubs located in Detroit's west side and metropolitan area.
I was also represented on the State Press Committee of the Michi-
gan Communist Party. And at the time of my withdrawal from the
Michigan Communist Party I was a member of the District Circula-
tion Committee of the Michigan edition of the Worker, a CP organ.
In this respect my main assignment was the circulation and promo-
tion of the Communist Party press in Detroit's west side, Dearborn,
and down-river areas.
Also confidential shipment of party press and literature to out-
State areas.
In connection with this assignment I was requested on numerous
occasions to deliver Communist Party, Michigan Civil Rights Con-
gress, and Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born mate-
rial to my various stops or stations.
The Michigan Worker Circulation Committee was not solely used
for the circulation of the Michigan Worker, but was also utilized on
many occasions for circulation of Communist Party and front
material.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, during the period of your member-
ship in the Conmiunist Party did you have occasion to become ac-
quainted with the activities of the Communist Party designed to sub-
vert legislative efforts of our Government ?
Mr. Schemanske. legislation directly affecting the Communist
Party is an integral part of the overall party program relating to its
defense.
Activities in this respect consist completely of party defense fund
campaigns and directing the resources of the entire party organization
toward imited front concentration, that of influencing all persons and
organizations sympathetic to their cause.
Furthermore, as the situation demands, organizational activities for
the formation or reactivation of front organizations are taken.
In many cases active Communist Partj' members hold office in con-
trol of these organizations, and are directly responsible to the Com-
munist Party for their activities.
They also conceal the identity of their ])arty membei*ship from Com-
munist Party members in these organizations.
Mr. Arens. Now, the Communist Party, as our record in this series
shows, has been vigorously opposed to the Smith Act, that being the
act which makes it a crime to conspire to overthrow the Government
of the United States by force and violence.
On the basis of your background and experience in the Communist
Party, can you tell us did the Communist Party always opjwse this
act, and, if not, when did it begin its opposition to the Smith Act?
6494 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Not to my knowledge. As a matter of fact, I
did not witness any form of opposition on the part of the Communist
Party against the Smith Act until it directly affected the party organ-
ization in July 1948, when 12 national leaders of the Communist Party
were indicted for violation of the Smith Act and charged with advo-
cating the overthrow of our Government with force and violence.
I do not recall any activity or interest on the part of the Young
Communist T/?ague or the Communist Party and its fronts against the
Smith Act in 1041 when the national leaders of the Socialist Workers
Part}' were indicted and convicted under the same act.
Mr. Arkns. As a member of the Connnunist Party at the behest
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Schemanske, did you
actually receive instructions from the Communist Party on the role
that you were to play with respect to legislation which the Communist
Party opposed?
Mr. Schemanske. Activities of the Communist Party wdth regard
to legislation aifecting its members and organization has been, is now,
and will continue to be one of the main points on the agenda of all
their meetings.
In this respect the Communist Party, directly and indirectly,
through its front organizations, has issued hundreds of thousands of
pieces of literature along with other means of propaganda such as
speeches, passage of resolutions, petitions, et cetera, toward their
defense.
The united-front work remains a key directive to all Communist
Party members who are not only encouraged but directed to penetrate
and gain control of legitimate organizations, especially in the labor
movement, with the objective of influencing these organizations to-
ward support and defense of the Communist Party.
I have before me a document which is entitled "Discussion Outline
for the Fight Against the Mundt-Nixon Bill" and which is issued by
the national educational department of the Communist Party and w^as
made available to all Communist Partv clubs and sections.
(See exhibit No. 107, appendix, pp. 7286-7289.)
]\Ir. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, the Mundt-Nixon bill was enacted into
law and is n.ow laiown as the Internal Security Act of 1950. One
section of this law deals with our immigration laws and contains
provisions which the Congress felt necessary to protect the security
of the United States.
This document, which you have just handed me, from the educa-
tional department of the Communist Party, explains the opposition,
according to the outline here, of the Communist Party to the Internal
Security Act, the Mundt-Nixon bill.
What action, to your certain knowledge as an undercover agent in
the Communist Party, was taken within the Communist conspiracy
itself to protect the Communist Party members who would be subject
to legal action as a result of tlie provisions of the Mundt-Nixon bill
subsequently enacted into the Internal Security Act?
Do I make myself clear?
Mr. Schemanske. You want to know just what action was taken?
Mr. Arens. Yes. What action was taken by the Communist con-
spiracy ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6495
IMr. ScHEMANSKE. FoUowiiig the indictment of the Communist
Party leaders under the Smith Act and enactment of the Mundt-Xixon
bill into law, security measures were more strictly enforced within the
entire Michigan Communist Party organizations.
Communist Party clubs were reorganized into small groups of not
more than G to 8 members for a more effective and secret method of
operation.
Party membership records and lists were destroyed.
Communist group leaders were instructed to memorize names and
addresses of members, and keep records by code numbers.
Mailing of meeting notices, meetings in known halls, and issuance
of party membership books were eliminated.
Persons whose citizenship status was jeopardized through their
party membership were requested to drop their direct party or open
activity and activize themselves in a party front organization such as
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and Michi-
gan Civil Rights Congress.
Furthermore, they were requested to join and become members of
progressive as well as right and labor organizations, the purpose of
which was to seek support from these organizations in the event, as
previously mentioned, their citizenship status would be jeopardized
as the result of legislation affecting them.
Mr. AiiExs. Did the Communist Party adopt, as a program of
action, the necessity of supporting outside organizations?
Mr. Sc'HEMANSKE. Mainly organizations sympathetic to and con-
trolled by the Communist Party, as can be substantiated in many of
the party's publications and periodicals, and also special or confiden-
tial releases to Communist Party clubs and sections.
I have here documents which I received through my respective
Communist Party section. One document, issued by the Michigan
State Organization Department, Commmiist Party, clearly states,
and I quote :
Every Communist has a transcendent responsibility to support, loyally and
tirelessly, the activities of the Civil Rights Congress. This means active mem-
bership in the CRC ; this means enlisting your friends and neiglibors into the
defense organization. This means raising funds for it.
I would like to submit this document.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Pursuant to the general order of the chairman, that will be incor-
porated in the appendix of the record and appropriately marked.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 322," see appendix, pp. 7659-
7661.)
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. The other document which I have is a plan of
work adopted at a conference of Communist clubs in the IMichigan
16th Congressional District. This document, in part, directs the
party membership to activize themselves in party front organiza-
tions such as the Michigan CRC and the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign liorn.
In this respect I would ask i)ermission to read an excer23t of this
document entitled "Under Civil Rights."
Mr. Arens. Please do.
Mr. ScHEMANSKE (reading) :
The 16th Congressional District is made up of many large nationalities. A
great percentage of these people are foreign born.
There have been several arrests and many threats of deportation against
militant, progressive elements among these nationality groups and foreign born.
6496 cojVimunist political subversion
This is part of a national pattern of terrorization and intimidation conducted
by the Government and reactionary groups. This policy of the Government
flows from the general policy of American imperialism, i. e., of preparing for a
war of world conquest and domination. The outlook is for even sharper and more
frequent attacliS against the foreign born.
Therefore, a more effective relationship must be established between the
National Group Organizations, the Michigan Committee for the Protection of
Foreign Born and the Civil Rights Congress.
The growing influx of so-called "displaced persons" and their organized
participation in Fascist-like demonstrations against progressive organizations of
foreign born ; and signs of Tito influences penetrating liberal and progressive
nationality groups, make it necessary for the incoming section committee to
work out with our national group comrades such activities as will strengthen
our fight against these Fascist sources.
Counsel, I would like to submit this document.
Mr. Arens. Yes, that will be received and incorporated in the
apjDendix pursuant to the general order of the chairman.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 323," see appendix, pp. 7662-7664.)
I observe in the recitation of the language of this document from
the Communist Party reference to certain individuals as "militant"
and "progressive."
What does that mean in Communist Party jargon?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. In Communist Party terminology the reference
in this case is to an individual who is a member of the Communist
Party or closely sympathetic to the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. In other words, when a Communist — when you were
in the Communist conspiracy did you ascertain as a certainty that the
terms "militant" and "progressive" used in connection with the activi-
ties of the party were applicable to a Communist himself ?
Mr. ScuEMANSKE. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Schemanske, did you attend any Commmiist
Party meetings which took positive action in support of the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born or the Michigan Civil
Rights Congress ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes.
I participated at a conference called for the purpose of establishing
a West Side section of the Michigan Communist Party, which took
place in April of 1950 in the Fort Dearborn section headquarters of
the Communist Party, located at 5642 Michigan Avenue in the city
of Detroit.
Saul Grossman, Executive Secretary of the Michigan Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, announced and distributed tickets
relative to a cultural festival sponsored jointly by the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and Michigan Civil
Rights Congress. Grossman stated that 50 percent of the proceeds
realized from this affair will be turned over to the Communist Party
for the defense of 11 national convicted Communist leaders. The
other 50 percent will be used to finance activities of the Civil Rights
Congress and the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
in their campaign against deportations.
Mr. Arens. After the Congress enacted tlie Immigration and
Nationality Act in 1952, the so-called Walter-McCarran Act, did the
Communist Party, to your certain knowledge, issue instructions to
its members with respect to actions which they were to take in regard
to this legislation ?
coMivTtnsriST political subversion 6497
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Yes. The defense of the Communist Party
against legislation directly affecting it was always on the agenda on
practically all Communist meetings. Communist Party members
were instructed to vigorously campaign against anti- Communist
legislation such as the Smith Act and Walter-McCarran Act and as to
passage of resolutions in their respective trade-union locals, securing
petitions, leaflet circulations and influencing of all organizations with
whom personal contact was maintained.
In conjunction with this activity, the Communist Party issued var-
ious bulletins to its membership which served as a guide to action.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske, in the course of the record which we
have been making here in this series of hearings over the last several
weeks there have been identified, I would surmise, about a thousand
organizations already in this country that have been created by the
Communist conspiracy for the avowed purpose of destroying the
Immigration and Nationality Act, the Smith Act, the Internal Secu-
rity Act, the Commmiist Control Act of 1955 and other similar
legislation.
Were any such organizations, to your certain knowledge, created in;
the State of Michigan ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us about them?
Mr. Schemanske. I have here a document which is self-explana-
tory. This document is titled "Emphasis!" and is a bulletin of the
educational department, Michigan State Committee, Communist
Party, U.S.A. It states here in this document that by the April 1950
conference of the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born some 80
organizations have been formed.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 324," see appendix, pp. 7665-
7669.)
Mr. Arens. Those are 80 organizations within the State of Michigan
formed for the purpose of destroying what law ?
Mr. Schemanske. The Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. That is just on the one act?
Mr. Schemanske. That is right.
Mr. Arens. That does not encompass organizations formed for the
purpose of destroying other acts. Is that correct ?
Mr. Schemanske. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. How many organizations does that document indicate
were formed in the State of Michigan for the purpose of undermining
the one law, the McCarran-Walter Act — formed by the Communist
Party — I should say ?
Mr. Schemanske. It says 80 organizations.
Mr. Arens. Can you, on the basis of your personal experience in the
Communist Party as an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, identify some of these organizations which were created
by the conspiracy ?
Mr. Schemanske. Various committees and organizations were be-
ing formed in defense of Communist Party members. Some of these
organizations were brought out this morning at this morning's liear-
ings for the defense of certain people. The majority of these people,,
to my knowledge, were members of the Communist Party.
I also have here a document on a letterhead of the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, which is signed by Emmett
6498 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
McCormick, M-c-C-o-r-m-i-c-k, chairman, for the Trade Union Com-
mittee of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 325,'- see appendix, p. 7670.)
Mr. Abens. That would be a subsidiary organization to the Michi-
gan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. SciiEMANSKE. Of the Michigan Conunittee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
As the situation demanded, organizations were formed to meet that
specific situation.
Mr. Arens. Was the Communist Party of Michigan, during your
experience in that apparatus, organized into nationality groups?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. Were the nationality groups important to the financial
structure of the Communist Party of Michigan ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Yes, they were regarded as one of the most im-
portant and best fmid-raising groups within the Communist Party.
I submit documents dealing with the raising of funds by the Com-
munist Party, including nationality groups, which I have here.
Mr. Arens. I have in my hand now, Mr. Schemanske, a number
of documents which have been already identified on this record per-
taining to fund drives of the Michigan Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, in which very substantial amounts are set up as quotas
for each of about, 1 would estimate, 3 or 4 dozen of the nationality
groups in Michigan. And the aggregate amounts, according to these
docimients, which were being solicited were in the twenty thousands
of dollars.
Could you kindly look at those documents as Mr. Appell hands them
to you and observe there the quotas assigned for nationality gi'oups
by the breakdown of Armenian-Americans, Greek-Americans, Italian-
Americans, and the like, and tell this committee what was the rela-
tionship between these some three-dozen nationality group organiza-
tions and the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 326 and 327a-h, see appendix,
pp. 7671-7680.)
(The witness examines documents.)
Mr. Schemanske. To my knowledge, the Communist Party had
members within these nationality groups assigned to work with the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foi"eign Born. I believe that
these documents provide interesting proof of this point. [Hands
documents to counsel.]
Mr. Arens. In other words, these were Communists who had pene-
trated the nationality groups as a liaison between such groups and
tlie Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Sche:manske. And the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Were these groups, these nationality groups, created by
the conspiratorial apparatus to support the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born as set forth in the Communist Party
document which you have previously exhibited to the committee?
Mr. Schemanske. To my knowledge, the 80 organizations listed
by the Communist Part}' were never openly identified. On the basis
of my membership in the Communist Party, it is evident that this
list would represent a part of these oiganizations.
Mr. Arens. You testified as to a Nationality Coimnission of the
Communist Party of ^Michigan.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6499
Wliile you were an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation did you personally attend meetings of this commission?
Mr. SciiEMANSKE, I attended a meeting of this commission in
November of 1923 — 1953, 1 should say — approximately 1 month prior
to testifying for the Government in the Michigan Smith Act trial.
Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of the meeting of the Nationality
Commission of the Conmiunist Party, and who participated in its
discussions?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. There were strict security measures taken at this
meeting, in which no one was allowed to leave the meeting hall during
approximately a 4- to 5-hour period of this meeting.
The purpose was to elect a Language Conmiission of the Michigan
Communist Party, and also to discuss and hear a report by Harry
Fanaru relative to the main report delivered at the national conference
of the Communist Party, USA, contained in a booklet entitled "New
Opportunities in the Fight for Peace and Democracy."
Mr. Arens. Is that a Communist Party publication?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. That is correct.
Mr. AKEJN s. JJo you care to transmit that to the Committee on Un-
American Activities for incorporation in the record ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. I would like to draw the counsel's attention to
pages 52, 53, and 54 in this booklet.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 328," see appendix, pp. 7681-
7684.)
Mr. Arens. Could you summarize the subject matter?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. It deals with the attacks against the foreign
born and for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. Stanley Nowak, according to documents which have
already been identified in this record, was a former chairman and vice
chairman of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Did you, while you were an undercover agent for the Federal Bu-
reau of Investigation, know Stanley Nowak as a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And have you attended Communist Party meetings with
him?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Stanley Nowak was present at this language
commission meeting about which I testified. And his presence there
would signify him as being a member of the Communist Party be-
cause the meeting was solely limited to members of the Communist
Party.
In addition to that, I recall Stanley Nowak speaking at several
meetings of my Young Communist League branch on the west side.
Mr. Arens. Now, according to documents which have been identi-
fied in this record, the Eev. Charles Hill has been chairman of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Appell is now going to display to you a document entitled "Plan
of Work" covering a period August 1 to November 8, 1949. Would
you kindly look at that document and explain to the committee. Mr.
Schemanske, what this document is and whether the Rev. Charles
Hill, mentioned in that document — I believe on page 2 — is the same
Charles Hill who at one time was a leader and officer of the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 329," see appendix, pp. 7685-
7688.)
Mr. Schemanske. Yes.
6500 COiVUViUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
This is a plan of work outlined by the Communist Party in Michi-
gan, and it states here, with reference to page 2, that all efforts must
be made to mobilize to elect Reverend Hill to the city council. And
this is the same Rev. Charles Hill that you have reference to.
Mr. Arens. In connection with this series of hearings, the docu-
ments thus far identified show that one of the official leaders of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born is one Dolores
Storich, D-o-l-o-r-e-s S-t-o-r-i-c-h.
During the course of your experience in the Communist Party as an
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation did you
know Dolores Storich as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Ycs ; I have. I knew Dolores Storich in 1939
as membership director of the Wonders Branch, Young Communist
League.
In 1944 she was a recording secretary of the Northwest Communist
Club, and in 1949 she was an organizer for the Dave White section
of the Michigan Communist Party.
In 1950 she was present at a Michigan State Communist Party con-
ference at which I participated. At that time she was also known
as Dolores Leutchman, L-e-u-t-c-h-m-a-n.
Mr. Arens. In August of 1956, according to the documents which
have been identified and incorporated into this record, one Peggy
Wellman executed certain official documents which have been incor-
porated in this record as president of the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Did you know her to be a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. Yes.
I participated at numerous meetings, closed meetings of the Com-
munist Party, at which Peggy Wellman was present.
Peggy Wellman is also the wife of Saul Wellman, formerly acting
State chairman of the Michigan Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. According to the record this morning, there was a
youth committee as a subordinate entity of the Micliigan Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born that was established, according to
these records, with the director being Margaret Fislmian. Did you
know her to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. ScHEMANSKE. I attended educational classes with Margaret
Fishman, sponsored by the Communist Michigan School of Social
Science. And I also attended meetings of the Labor Youth League
in which she actively participated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell is going to hand you a photostatic copy of
one of the documents which has been identified here just for the
purpose of refreshing your recollection of the document. It is the
document of the Micliigan Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born of October 17, 1951, and it is a Trade Union Committee of the
IMichigan (^'ommittee for Protection of Foreign Born, and it has the ■
signature of Emmett McCormick, E-m-m-e-t-t M-c-C-o-r-m-i-c-k, as
chairman. Did vou laiow him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Schema nske. Yes. Ho was known to me as a member of the
(Jommunist Party.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfullj^ suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Any questions?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6501
Mr, Jackson. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
One question, Mr. Schemanske.
Have you, to j^our own personal knowledge, ever known of an.
instance in which the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
either the Michigan Conunittee or the American Connnittee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, has ever attempted to forestall the deporta-
tion of an alien who was opposed to the goals and objectives of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Schemanske. No, I do not.
During my entire period of membership in the partj' no such inci-
dent ever came to my attention.
Mr. Jackson. No foreign-born Fascist was ever given the protection
of the Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Schemanske. No, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. It would be necessary to be something more than
foreign-born. You had also to support the objectives of the Com-
munist Party in order to receive the assistance of that organization?
Mr. Schemanske. That is correct.
(Representative Harold H. Velde entered the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Scherer. Following through with what my colleague has in-
dicated, do you know of any case where the committee came to the
defense of an individual who had been charged with a crime or con-
victed of a crime that was about to be deported, such as for violation
of the Narcotics Act ?
Mr. Schemanske. No, Honorable Scherer. I do not recall any
such incident on the part of the party organization in Michigan.
Mr. Scheker. In fact, the only time that the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born came to the defense of an individual
in order to prevent his deportation was when that individual was a
member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Schemanske. Yes.
If he was a member of the Conununist conspiracy or sympathetic or
closely associated with the Communist Party.
Mr. Jackson. The yardstick was his political beliefs, not the fact
that he was foreign born and under order of deportation ?
Mr. Schemanske. That is correct.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you.
Mr. FitAziER. Are you through ?
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Velde?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. You are dismissed. And thank you very much for
your very helpful testimony.
Mr. Arens. Peggy Wellman, please.
Kindly come forward.
Please remain standing wliile the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony about to be given in this hear-
ing is to be the truth and the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Wellman. I do.
85^33— 5T--pt. 1 24
6502 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MIGNON PEGGY WELLMAN, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, GEORGE W. CROCKETT, JR.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, ma'am, by name, residence,
and occupation.
Mrs. Wellman. My name is Mrs. Mignon Peggy Wellman. I live
at 3000 Clairmount, Detroit 6. M-i-g-n-o-n. And the other is
p_e-g-g-y. And the other is W-e-1-l-m-a-n. And Clairmount is
spelled C-1-a-i-r-m-o-u-n-t. That is Detroit 6, Mich. I am a house-
wife at present. Before I continue I would like to submit
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Coimnittee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mrs. Wellman. I have the subpena here, and before I testify •
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing pursuant to that subpena ?
]Mrs. Wellman. Obviously. Here is the subpena.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Wellman. Yes; I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Crocivett. George W. Crockett, Jr., attorney, 3220 Cadillac
Tower, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. For purpose of identification, your husband's name
is what, please ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
I think the rules of the committee state that I don't have to testify
against my husband.
Mr. Arens. Now, I understood you to say a few moments ago that
your occupation is housewife.
jVIrs. Wellman. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And have you in the course of the last year or so had
any other occupation ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. T decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. When did you last have some other occupation beside
the occupation of housewife?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Do you presently have some other occupation t
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that, too.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Wliy?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline again.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
^Ir. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully the occupation or occupations which you have had
COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6503
in the last year or so you would be supplying information which
could be used against you in criminal proceedings ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I have answered that question already by stating
that I will rely on the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion because counsel has the right to inquire whether she is relying
on the fifth amendment in good faith.
Under the decisions of the courts, Mr. Chairman, she must answer
that question either affirmatively or negatively.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman, Mr. Chairman, you may assume that any time
I say that I am relying on the fifth amendment I am doing it in good
faith.
Mr. Jackson. We may assume it, but the Supreme Court is apt
not to. I suggest that you make it perfectly clear in all of your
declinations that you are relying on it.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I understand the Supreme Court has said that
I must assume that.
Mr. Jackson. You may assume it. It isn't necessary for the com-
mittee or the courts or anyone else to assume it. The assumption
is up to another body other than this or other bodies than yourself
to make the assumption. All we can do is ask the questions, questions
which we properly can ask you. You may then decline to answer on
whatever grounds you choose. The decision as to whether or not
that was in good faith is a legal determination to be made elsewhere.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. I am a little uncertaiu as to the status of this record.
Is there an order out?
Mr. Frazikr. I directed her to answer, and I believe she has not
answered.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I have already stated that I am relying on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Frazier. All right.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Wellman, Mr. Appell is going to lay before
you two documents which have been already identified in this recoi'd.
One is the application for a special beer and wine license signed by
Mignon, M-i-g-n-o-n, Wellman as president of the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, and signed also by Saul Gross-
man as secretary of the Michigan Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born. The other is the bond application.
(See exhibit 302a, b, appendix, pp. 7625, 7G26.)
Kindly look at those documents which Mr. Ap])ell is now display-
ing to you, and see if you cannot help this committee of the Govern-
ment of the United States and tell whether or not that is a true
and correct reproduction of your signature as president of the Mich-
igan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. Before I continue I would like to
Mr. Arens. Would you just answer that question, please, and con-
tinue on any ])repaied statement that you have?
6504 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Wellman. I would like to know if my prepared statement
could be marked.
Mr. Arkns. Answer tliat question, please, and then we will con-
tinue with any prepared statement.
We will have a question first and answer on the prepared state-
ment.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Weli.man. May I have a ruling from the committee chairman
as to whether or not my statement may be introduced and identified ?
Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question outstanding first, madam,
so we know who you are here that is going to make this prepared
statement.
Is that your signature on the document there as president of the
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. Well, it seems there is a little confusion here. I
asked the committee chairman for a ruling on my statement that I
want to submit.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question outstanding?
Is that your signature on that document as president of the Mich-
igan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask that counsel be sustained and
an answer to the question be forthcoming.
Mr. Frazier. I have already directed you to answer the question^
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. She has had time. Let's go to the next one.
Mr. Arens. We will go to the next question.
Wliere were you born ?
This record will show her declination to answer the outstandings
question.
Mr. Crockett. She has not declined.
Mr. Arens. Then let her answer.
Mrs. Wellman. Just a minute. Stop trying to browbeat me.
Mr. Arens. I am not trying to browbeat you. Please answer the
question.
Is that your signature on that document ?
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth,
amendment.
Now, may I have a ruling on my request ?
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully under oath whether or not that is your signature on
that document as president of the Michigan Committee for Protection
of Forei^ Born you would be supplying information that might be-
used agamst you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Wellman. Mr. Chairman, are you running the hearing?
May I have a ruling?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witnass be-
ordered and directed to answer the outstanding question.
Mr. Frazier. I direct you to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6505
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Akens. With reference to that prepared statement
Mr. Frazier. Do you now oflfer the statement ?
Mr. Arens. I was just going to ask, with reference to that prepared
statement, please tell the committee what Communists participated
in the preparation of that statement which you have before you.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer it.
May I read the statement now ?
Mr. Aeens. Did some person
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Velde.
Mr. Velde. I move that we accept the statement for consideration
at this time, and get over this business of the statement. We know
what it is. There is no question about that. It is a lot of Communist
rabble. But I move we accept the statement for consideration.
Mr. Frazier. We will examine it.
Mr. Jackson. I object, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Did some person
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment, Mr. Counsel.
The rules of procedure of the committee, as set forth in the rules of
procedure, prescribe that any prepared statement of this sort be sub-
mitted to the committee 24 hours in advance of the appearance of the
witness. For that reason I shall object to any consideration of any
prepared statement of this sort from an uncooperative witness.
If the witness is prepared to cooperate, if she is prepared to give
the committee the benefit of any knowledge she may have of the opera-
tions or the machinations of this organization, then I think perhaps
Mr.
Mr. Velde. Let me ask a question of the witness before I withdraw
my motion.
Have you submitted your statement to the committee or to the
committee counsel 24 hours prior to this hearing?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I am not aware of any 24-hour notice ruling or
ruling on notice, and I have not submitted it as yet. I am trying to
submit it now.
Mr. Frazier. You did not have a copy, did you?
Mr. Arens. No, Mr. Chairman.
Is there a question outstanding on this record now ?
Mr. Jackson. We are considering this.
Mr. Velde. I made a motion to consider the statement. Mr. Jack-
son objected.
Mr. Jackson. It would appear the only copy of the rules in the
room is in possession of committee counsel.
Could we borrow your copy of the rules.
Mr. Crockett. I am not committee counsel.
Mr. Jackson. I beg your pardon.
Counsel for the witness.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
(The committee and committee counsel confer.)
Mr. Velde. When were you served with tlie copy of the subpena?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs, Wellman. It was Tuesday or Wednesday of last week.
6506 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. It was November 28, 1956. Is that correct?
Mrs. Wellman. It might be.
Mr. Velde. At the same time you were served you were furnished
a copy of the rules of the committee, were you not?
Mrs. Wellman. Yes.
Mr. Velde. And you w^ere then familiar with the rules that re-
quire 3'ou to file a copy of any statement a reasonable time prior to
the date 3'ou were subpenaed for the committee hearing?
JMrs. Wellman. Yes.
IVIr. Velde. And you have filed no copy of your statement here
with the committee?
Mrs. Wellman. No.
Mr. Velde. I will withdraw my motion, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Wellman. Mr, Chairman, I am just
Mr. Fraziek. Wait just a moment.
Mr. Scherer. I see no reason why we can't accept the statement for
consideration and then determine later on if we want to put it in the
record.
We don't have to put it in the record because there has been no
compliance with the rules.
I think if you accept the statement and consider
Mrs. Wellman. Mr. Chairman.
INIr. Frazier. Just a minute.
Mr. Jackson. I still object.
We have 15 or 20 witnesses waiting, each one of them with a pre-
pared speech in their pockets. If we set a precedent at this time for
accepting statements we are going to have them from now on.
I shall continue in my objection.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson, I made my motion just to get rid of the
statement. We all know what the statements are. They constantly
refer to the statement and ask us if they could read it.
Mr. Frazier. All right.
You are in favor of accepting Mr. Scherer's motion ?
Mr. Velde. Aye.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Aye.
Mr. Frazier. The Chair votes "Aye."
It will be accepted.
Mr. Jackson. For consideration by the committee.
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, will you kindly look over your right
shoulder there.
Mr. Schemanske, will you please stand in the back of the hearing
room.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
(The witness Schemanske arose.)
Mr. Arens. Ma'am, would you kindly look over your right shoulder
at the gentleman standing tliere in the front row of the hearing room?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I have no desire to look at him. I just ate my
lunch.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6507
Mr. Arens. Now, nia'ain, that gentleman who is standing there
took an oath this morning. In the conrse of his testimony, he said
that while he was an nndei-cover agent in the Communist Party for
the Federal Bureau of Investigation he knew you as a Communist,
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Stephen J,
Schemanske ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. I direct you to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you knoAv a person bj' the name of Louise Pettibone
Smith?
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now, Louise Pettibone Smith took an oath and testified
before the Subversive Activities Control Board on December 22, 1955,
with respect to a meeting which she had while she was with the Ameri-
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and making a tour.
In the course of that testimony she said that she met with you in
connection with the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Was Louise Pettibone Smith lying or was she telling the truth?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
(Committee members present : Representatives Frazier, Velde, Jack-
son, and Scherer.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliere were you born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
?.Ir. xYrens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. I direct you to answer the question.
IMrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully where you were born you would be supplying information
that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
•6508 coMMuisriST political subversion
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Whj' ?
Mrs. Wellmax. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellmax. I decline to answer on the gToimds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, are yon a citizen of the United States ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellmax. I decline to answer that.
Mr. xVrens. Have you ever been naturalized as a citizen
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment.
I am unwillino; to accept that as an answer in good faith, whether
or not she is a citizen of the United States, and I ask a direction be
issued, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Frazier. I direct you to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline, based on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to say that it might tond to lead to
a criminal prosecution of you if you admitted that you were a citizen
of the United States?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellaian". I decline to comment on that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that she be or-
dered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. I direct you to answer the question.
]\Irs. Wellman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. "Were you born in the United States?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I answered that by declining to answer.
Mr. Scherer. I ask a direction.
Mrs. Wellman. I was directed to answer.
Mr. Scherer. Let's have a repetition.
I ask that you direct
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellman. I answer it again, based on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are we ready to proceed ?
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as and
when the witness signs the voucher pursuant to which she will be given
her per diem allowance and transportation expense to this hearing,
that that part of the voucher containing her signature be incorporated
in the body of this record, and I say the purpose of that is so we can
make a comparison of that signature with other signatures.
Mr. Frazier. It is so ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 330a," see appendix, p. 7689.)
Mr. iVrens. Have you ever voted as a citizen of the United States?
(Tlie witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Scherer. There is no invokation of any amendment to that
answer.
I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6509
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Frazier. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Louise Pettibone Smith testified that while she was with
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, on a tour,
she went to Detroit and took you, Mrs. Wellman "to meet various min-
isters and people of that sort with whom she had made appointments
for me."
That is a quotation of the sworn testimony of Louise Pettibone
Smith before the Subversive Activities Control Board.
Was Louise Pettibone Smith lying when she made that statement,
or was she telling the truth?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Wliy?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are ordered to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic copy of a letter on the
letterhead of the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
signed by Peggy Wellman, addressed to "Dear Friend". It is all about
a fellow fighter for peace, asking for a contribution.
Please look at that letter and see if you won't be good enough to
identify the signature there and authenticate the signature appear-
ing there as one of your own.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 3o0b," see appendix, p. 7690.)
(The witness examines document, and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chainnan, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you still another document of the Michi-
gan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born announcing a gala
banquet Saturday, "Eepeal tlie Walter-McCarran Act I" It adver-
tises, I see, some, "Noted Speakers."
All this is in reference to 45 men and women threatened with de-
portation or loss of citizenship under the provisions of the Walter-
McCarran law.
Mr. Saul Grossman will also be honored.
This signed sincerely yours, Mrs. Peggy Wellman, for the committee.
Kindly look at that document and see if you won't be good enough
to verify the authenticity of the signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 331a, b," see appendix, pp. 7691,.
7692.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
6510 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Do you know Saul G'rossman, the witness who pre-
ceded you by one other witness on the witness stand this morning?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. He is one of your coofficials on the Michigan Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born, is he not?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you still another document, "Save
This American Family."
It is all about Mrs. Peggy Wellman, who faces deportation.
"Her husband, Saul," according to this document "is one of the five
men in jail after their recent conviction under the Smith Act."
"Mrs. Wellman," according to this document "faces deportation
because of her labor and progressive activities over many years."
And it is all because, this document says, of the infamous Walter-
McCarran Act.
Curiously enough, the document itself is signed by Peggy Wellman
of the Michigan Committer for Protection of Foreign Born.
Did you prepare this document calling on everyone who receives it
to protest the Walter-McCarran Act and to defend yourself against
deportation just because you happened to be for labor and progressive
activities over many years?
Please look at that document and tell this committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities if you can't identify that for us.
It has already been identified in this record. See if you can't help
authenticate the veracity of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 332," see appendix, p. 7693.)
(The witness examines the document and confers with her counsel.)
]VIrs. Wellman. My name is Peggy Wellman. I fac€ deportation
under the Walter-lMcCarran law, but I decline to identify that docu-
ment for you.
Mr. Arens. "Why ?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellman. I decline upon the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you face deportation under the Walter-McCarran
Act solely and exclusively as set forth in this exhibit because of your
labor and progressive activities over many years? Is that the sole
and exclusive ground upon which you face (leportation ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.
Mrs. Wellman. I have already declined to identify that document.
Mr. Arens. Just tell us whether or not the sole grounds upon
which deportation proceedings are pending against you is because you
are progressive and because of your prolabor record over many years.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We think tliere might be some other little element there
that is missing in the description of your case.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to comment on that document.
Mr. Arens. Let's don't talk about the document then. Let's just
talk about this situation alluded to in the document.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6511
I think there should now be a direction that she answer the question
whether or not the sole reasons that she is under deportation order are
the reasons set forth in the document. I think she should be directed
to answer that question.
Mr. Fkazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
INIrs. Well^fax. I decline to answer, based on the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness a few questions ?
Mr. Frazier. Proceed.
Mr. ScHERER, Now, "Witness, you just submitted a statement for the
consideration of the conmiittee, and asked that it be made a part of the
record in this case. Did you not ?
Mrs. Wellmax. Yes, I did.
Mr. ScHERER. And you signed that statement ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellmax. Yes.
Mr. ScPiERER. Are the statements and allegations set forth in that
statement true ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]^Irs. TVellmax. So far as I know and to my knowledge, everything
in there is true.
]Mr. ScHERER. I move that the statement submitted by the witness
be made a part of the record as she has requested.
Mr. Frazier. Under the rules, Ave will take a vote. All in favor
Mr. Velde. Before I voted — I have not thoroughly examined the
statement.
(The committee confers.)
Mr. Jacksox. May I ask a question of counsel.
If this is admitted into the record, is this also under the compulsion
of the oath which the witness took at the outset ?
Mr. Arexs. I would suggest not, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute.
She has already said that what she said in here is true. She is under
oath when she says it is true.
Mr. Arexs. That would be the only basis u]^on which it would be.
Mr. ScHERER. That is right. That is sufficient.
I think I know what I am doing.
Mr. Arexs. I don't mean to engage in a colloquy here except to say,
that the document which she submitted is not a document which was
attested to. Mr. Scherer has asked her whether or not the statements
are true. She therefore is under oath with reference to the facts set
forth in the document.
Mr. Scherer. That is right. That is all I wanted to know.
(The committee and committee counsel confer.)
Mr. Velde. Before you take a vote, may I ask a question or two ?
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Velde. In response to a question of Mr. Scherer, you have ad-
mitted or, rather, stated that everything contained in this statement
is true. Is that correct ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Certainly the witness wouldn't submit a false state-
ment to this committee.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Wellman. To my knowledge, all that is in here is true.
6512 coAoruNiST political subversion
Mr. Velde. And may I read just part of this :
I have been ordered deported to Canada under the provisions of the Walter-
McCarran law despite having lived here all of my life.
So you were born in the United States of America ?
(The witness confers with her counsel, )
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to answer that question.
IMr. Velde. Yet you admit that the statement that you have sub-
mitted to us is true ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. So far as I know.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I vote aye in admitting this into the
record.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. Aye.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Aye.
Mr. Frazier. The Chair votes aye.
It will be admitted and made a part of the record.
(The statement referred to follows :)
Statement to the House Committee on Un-American Activities
Chicago, Decemier 3, 1956.
I am doing what any normal wife and mother would do — fighting for the right
to stay with my family.
I have been ordered deported to Canada under the provisions of the Walter-
McCarran law despite having lived here all of my life. The Immigration Depart-
ment alleges that I was brought to this country as an infant in my mother's
arms. My husband is appealing a 4-year and 8 months' sentence under the Smith
Act.
My two children, David, 16, and Vickie, 14, are American born and are making
outstanding records for themselves in school, despite the constant harassment of
their family.
I am leaving no s^tones unturned in my efforts to remain in this country with
my family. Everything I am doing is legal and aboveboard. I have as much
right to remain in this country as any other American. I am a product of Ameri-
can schools and life.
The horror and degradation of the Walter-McCarran law can only be appreci-
ated by a person who is caught up in its web. In addition to facing the imminent
threat of being whisked from my family, home and friends, I am subjected to
daily indignities and surveillance. Even though on .$2,000 cash bond, I am still
forced to report monthly to the Immigration Service like a common criminal
and submit to degrading questioning about my personal behavior and associations.
I am doing everything I can to bring about the repeal or revision of the Walter-
McCarron (sic) law. In doing this, I am joined by millions of other Americans
who, while disagreeing with my views on many questions, share my conviction
that the law is inhuman, unjust and undemocratic.
I do not intend to permit Representative Walter to put me into a straight-
jacket (sic) so that the destruction of my family can be carried out without
protest from me. I appeal to the generous instincts of every father and mother
in America to support my fight to stay imited with my family.
Mrs. Pegqt Mignon Wellman.
Mr. Scherer. In the statement you tell us you are under an order
for deportation.
For what?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Wliy?
Mrs. Wellman. I have been ordered deported under the provisions
of the Walter-McCarran Act.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6513
]SIr. ScHERER. "Wliy ? What provisions ?
Isn't it a fact that you are a Communist?
(The witness confers with her counseh)
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to ansvv-er that.
Mr, ScHERER. Now, madam, you can't possibly refuse to answer
that question on any constitutional grounds.
At your insistence, this statement of yours has been admitted in the
record. And you tell us in here that you are under an order of deporta-
tion and a lot of other things.
Now I have a right then to certainly ask you with reference to
statements you have voluntarily submitted to this committee. And if
you refuse to answer those questions of mine on any grounds, I assure
you that you are in contempt of this committee. And 1, for one, will
recommend and move that the committee cite you for contempt of the
Congress because it is obvious you are in contempt.
It should be apparent now to your lawyer that you are.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I refuse to comment on your statement.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness then, Mr. Chairman,
to answer my question.
So there will be no question about it, my question
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellman. Repeat the question, please.
Mr. ScHERER. I will repeat the question. The question is :
Isn't it a fact that you are under an order of deportation because
of your Communist Party activities?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Jackson. I ask the witness again be directed to answer. The
answer is not satisfactory in light of the voluntary statement entered
into the record by the witness.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that question, relying on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. All right.
Now in here you say you are a product of American schools and
life.
Where did you go to school ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I went to school in Tacoma, Wash.
Mr. Scherer. Well, what schools did you go to?
Mrs. Wellman. I don't like to admit it, but it is so long ago I don't
remember.
Mr. Jackson. I am sorry. I didn't hear you. You don't remember
what schools you attended in Tacoma ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I said it is so long ago. I don't like to admit it, but
it is so long ago I don't remember the names of the schools I went to.
Mr. Jackson. Elementary schools and high school ?
Mrs. Welliman. That is right. I went to elementary school.
Mr. Scherer. Now where were you born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
6514 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. I again call to 3'our attention that you made a
statement with reference to your birth in this voluntary statement that
you have asked we admit in the record and which has been admitted
into the record.
Mrs. Wellman. Mr. Chairman, I have already answered that ques-
tion before, a couple of times.
JMr. ScHEitER. You weren't asked that question before the statement
was admitted iii the record. Now we have to ask you again that same
question in view of the fact that it has been admitted in the record.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer that.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask, Mr. Chairman, that you direct the witness to
answer the question as to where she was born. 8he can't tell us one
thing in the statement here and then decline to answer when I cross-
examine her on the statement.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. WelLiMax. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, in light of the specific statement of
the witness in her voluntary statement since achnitted into the record,
and the finding of the Supreme Court on the matter of direction to a
witness and an indication that she stands in danger of contempt cita-
tion, I ask an additional direction to the witness that she answer the
question as to where she was born.
Mr. Frazier. I again direct you to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. "Wellman. I again refuse, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Now your husband was convicted for violating the
Smith Act.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
jNIr. ScHERER. That is in the statement, counsel.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. My statement says "My husband is appealing a
4-year, 8-month sentence under the Smith Act."
Mr. ScHERER. Then he was convicted before he can be sentenced.
Right?
Witness, I am asking you a question.
Your husband was convicted for violating the Smith Act ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I have answered the question.
Mr. SciiEKER. I submit she has not answered the question, and I
ask that you direct the witness to answer the question,
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. SciiERER. It is not what you said in your statement. It is what
I am asking you now.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHEKER. You can't answer my question b}' saying you said
something in your statement.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\Irs. Weelman. I assume that no American court sentences people
until they are convicted.
Mr. SciiERER. All right. Will you answer my question ? It can be
as simple as that — yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6515
You have to aiisv er it. Otherwise, I submit, young hidy, tliat you
are in contempt.
(The witness confers with her counseL)
Mrs. "Wellman. My husband was found guilty, and is now on
appeal before the United States Supreme Court.
Mr. ScHEREK. And were you jiving with him at the time of his
conviction ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I think I would like to call attention to the com-
mittee rules.
]Mr. Scherer. I am thoroughly familiar with those rules, but you
opened the door.
Mrs. Wellman. And I would like the chairnuin to make a ruling on
the question.
Mr. Scherer. The rule saj^s that the conmiittee shall not ask a
husband or Avife about the activities of the other.
But when you opened the door and you tried to lead this committee
to believe certain things from the voluntary statement that you sub-
mitted in the record, then we have a right to ask you about your
husband.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. We didn't ask you initially. It wasn't until you
opened the door by submitting this statement that we are asking you
about your husband and your relations with him.
Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Fkazier. Mr. Scherer, the Chair will have to rule against you.
She doesn't have to answer that question.
You can appeal it and let the committee vote on it.
Mr. Scherer. Well, I would like a vote because it is clear in my
mind, and I know what the rule provides.
"\Ylien a witness makes a statement, a voluntary statement about her
husl)and, then certainly we have a right to cross-examine her and ask
her about that statement.
That certainly is not a violation of the rule of tlie committee.
I would admit that if I had asked her that question before she made
this voluntary statement I couldn't have asked her under the rules
of the committee.
(The committee confers.)
Mr. Jackson. Question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Frazier. The committee will take a 5-minute recess in order to
consider this question.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken, there being present Kepre-
sentatives Frazier, Velde, Jackson, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess,
there being present Representatives Frazier, Velde, Jackson, and
Scherer.)
Mr. P'razier. The committee will come to ordei'.
On the question raised, as to whelher the witness should be required
to answer the question put by Mr. Scherer, 1 will ask the members of
the committee to vote.
Mr. Velde?
Mr. Veij)e. Mr. Cliairman, again may we have a repetition of the
question ?
6516 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
^Ir. ScHERER. Let's get it here now.
In her statement the witness said "My husband is appealing a 4-year,
8-month sentence under the Smith Act."
My question is was she living v.ith her husband at the time he was
convicted.
Mr. Velde. I vote aye on the motion you direct her to answer.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. Aye.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Aye.
Mr. Frazier. On the motion before the committee I, as chairman,
direct you to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arexs. Is the matter unresolved, Mr. Chairman? We have a
number of witnesses.
Mr. Frazier. Yes. I have directed the witness to answer.
Mi's. "Wellman. The answer is "Yes." I was living with my hus-
band then, and I am living with him now, and I am continuing — I am
fighting for the chance to continue to live with my husband and my
family.
Mr. Frazier. You have answered the question.
You may proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Arexs. Xow, I lay before you a document which consists of
the proceedings of the Ajnerican Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born at a National Conference to Defend the Riglits of Foreign
Born Americans, December 11-12, 1956. In this summary of pro-
ceedings you are identified here as the representative of the Michigan
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and also as one of the
persons who brought greetings to the conference from Detroit.
Kindly look at this document and see if you can't help this com-
mittee of the Congress by verifying the authenticity of the designation
of yourself there.
( See exhibit VI, appendix, pp. 8372-8405.)
Mrs. Wellmax'^. I decline to answer.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Arex'S. Make that 1954. I made a mistake on the date.
Mrs. TYellmax. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. ^YhJ^.
jVIrs. Wellmax. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. "Wellmax'. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Did you lead a panel discussion in that particular con-
ference of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
Mrs. Wellmax. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arex'S. Mr. Appell, lay before the witness the summary of the
proceedings in which this witness is identified, ]Mrs. Peggy Wellman,
as the leader of a discussion on how to repeal the Walter-McCarran
Act.
(See exhibit No. 76a, appendix, p. 7222.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6517
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs, Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend a national conference of the Aiaerican
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, New York City, at which
Abner Green was one of the principal speakers ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Do 3'ou know Abner Green ?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline.
Mr. Arens. xVre you now at this moment a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy?
Mrs. Wellman. I decline.
Mrs. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you are now a Communist.
Mrs. Wellman. I decline.
yir. Arens. At this moment.
^Irs. Wellman. I decline.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Wellman. I decline to answer, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectful!}^ sugest that that would
conclude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Jackson, any questions ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. Margaret Fishman.
Kindly come forward.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony about to be given at tliis
hearing will be the truth and the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Fishman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGARET FISHMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, GEORGE W. CROCKETT, JR., DETROIT, MICH.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Fishman. My name is Margaret Fishman. My residence is
3660 Parker, in Detroit. And I am a housewife and mother of two
children.
Mr. Arens. You are api)earing today in response to a subpena issued
by the House Committee on Un-American Activities i
Mrs. Fishman. Yes; I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Fishman. Yes; I nm.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel identify yourself?
Mr. CRocKE-rr. George W. Crockett, Jr., attorney, 3220 Cadillac
Tower, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. Do you know the lady who just preceded you to the
witness stand, Mrs. Peggy Wellman?
85;!:{:{— 57 — pt. 1 25
6518 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I will refuse to answer that question under the
privileges guaranteed me under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Kindly look over your right shoulder.
Mr. Schema nske, would you please stand there in the front row
of the hearing room?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
(The witness Schemanske arose.)
Mr. Arens. Ma'am, kindly look at the gentleman standing in the
front row.
Mrs. FisiiMAN. I don't feel so inclined, thank you.
Mr. Akens. This gentleman here testified this morning under oath
that while he was an undercover representative of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation in the Communist Party he knew 3'ou as a Communist.
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ''i
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I Avill decline to answer that question, too, under
the guaranties of the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Where Avere you born?
(The w^itness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FisiiMAN. I was born in Ohio.
Mr. Arens. When?
Mrs. FiSHMAN. March 20, 1925.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us your maiden name.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAN. May I ask the Chair for a ruling on the relevancy
of such a question.
Mr. Frazier. The Chair rules it is relevant.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Jackson. It is a matter of proper identification, Mr. Chair-
man.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAN. My maiden name was Radulovich, E-a-d-u-1-o-v, as
in victory, -i-c-h.
Mr. Arens. Give us, if you would, please, just a brief thumbnail
sketch of your educational background.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I attended tlie public-school system of the city of
Detroit, period.
Mr. Arens. And when did you conclude your formal education ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I graduated from high school in 1943.
Mr. Arens. Xow tell us, if you please, the name of your husband.
(The w^itness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I would request that the Chair rule on such a
question.
He asked the name of my husband.
Mr. Arens. Tlie question is for tlie purpose of identification.
Kindlj' tell us the name of your husband.
I am not asking her to testify with respect to any activities of her
husband, any trouble lier husband may have been in or anything about
her husband, but just identify her husband for the purpose of identi-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6519
fication of herself. She appears here as a married woman, Mrs. Mar-
garet Fishman. I want the name of her husband.
Mr. FkxVzier. You are directed to answ^er the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Jackson,
and Scherer.)
All's. Fishman, The question violates rule 12 of your own rules,
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. I have already directed you to answer the question.
I am familiar with the rules. You are merely asked to name your
husband.
Mrs. FisiiMAN. His name is A. Fishman.
Mr. Arens. "^^Hiat does the A stand for ?
Mrs. FisiiMAN. Alvin.
]VIi-. Arens. We exhibit to you a document which has been already
identified in this record, Michigan Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, bearing a signature, Margaret Fishman, for Pro-
visional Committee for Youth Participation.
Kindly look at this document and see if you can't help this Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities by attesting to the veracity and
authenticity of that signature.
(See exhibit No. 309, appendix, p. 7637.)
Mrs. Fishman. I Avill decline to answer that question under the
privileges guaranteed under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as and
when this witness signs the voucher pursuant to which she will re-
ceive pa}' for appearance here and transportation expenses, that that
part of the voucher bearing her signature be incorporated in the body
of the record so there may be a comparison of signatures.
Mr, Frazier, It is so ordered.
(Docunjent marked "Exhibit No. 333," see appendix, p. 7694.)
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Bereniece Bald-
win ?
(The Vt'itness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Fishman. I will decline to answer that question under the
fifth amendment privileges.
Mr. Arens. Bereniece Baldwin testified before this committee, un-
der oath, that while she was an undercover agent for the Federal
Bureau of Investigation in the Communist Party she knew you as a
Communist, and that she turned over to you certain committee records
of the Communist Party of Michigan.
"Was she lying or was she telling the truth?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Fishman. Upon the advice of counsel, I refuse to answer that'
question, under the fifth amendment privileges of the United States-
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. What other school did you attend besides this high
school that you told us about while you were acquiring this education ?
(The w^itness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Fishman. What do you mean? AVhile I was going to hieh
school?
Mr. Arens. Any other school that you have attended now be^ides-
this school that you talked about.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
6520 coivuviuNisT political subversion
Mrs. FiSHMAN. You mean as a part of my formal education in the
public school system ?
Mr. Akens. Yes, ma'am.
Not necessarily in the public school system. Eack your brain now
and see if you can't tell this committee some other little school you
may have attended up in Michigan.
Mrs. FisiiMAN. I don't appreciate your sarcasm, if you don't mind,
I am not accustomed to such.
(The ^yitness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FisHMAN. I wish you would make your question more specific.
Mr. Arexs. Do you have a recollection of attending any other
school in Michigan other than the schools that you have alluded to
thus far in your testimony 'i
(The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I don't understand your question anyhow.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the Michigan School of Social Science?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAX. I will refuse to answer that question under the
fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, ma'am, and ask you to affirm
or deny tlie fact that you did attend the Communist-controlled
Michigan School of Social Science.
Mrs. FiSHMAX. I think I just refused to answer under the privileges
of the fifth amendment to such a question.
Mr. Arens. Now whom do you know in the Yugoslav Embassy
in Washington, D. C. ?
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know anybody or have you, in the course of the
last few years, Imown anybody in the Yugoslav Embassy in Wash-
ington, D. C. ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
!Mi'S. FiSHBfAN. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment privileges.
Mr. Akens. Have you been in contact with a person in the inter-
national Commimist apparatus headquartered in the Yugoslav
Embassy in Washington, D. C. ?
Mi-s. FiSHMAx. I decline to answer that question, too.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever caused to be transmitted to a person in
the Yugoslav Embassy in Washington, D. C. any confidential or
restrictetl information respecting industries or production in Detroit,
Mich. ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FisiiMAN. Upon the insistence of my attorney, I refuse to
answer that question under the fifth amendment privileges of the
United States Constitution.
Mr. Scheuek. You don't have to accept his advice if you don't
want to.
Mrs. FiSHMAN. 1 will accept my attorney's advice, thauk you, sir.
Mr. Srm:RER. You say upon insistence of his advice.
Mr. Arens. Are you the sister of Lt. Milo Radulovich?
Mrs. Fisii^fAX. T decline to answer that question.
Mr. Aiu^.xs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Fraztek. You are directed to answer the question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6521
Mrs. FiSHMAN. I will decline to answer under the fifth amendment
privileoes of the United States Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Hfive you at any time received fi'om your brother Milo
Radulovich any property, manuals, documents of the United States
Air Force ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSH3iAX. You know better.
Mr. Arens. Mv. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Fkaziek. Your answer is not responsive. You are directed to
answer the question.
Mrs. FisH?.rAx. I will decline to answer under the fifth amendment
privileges of the United States Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, I cause to be laid before you a photograph.
'•No More Legal Lynchings" according to this sign.
In this group, I ask you if you would kindly look at the photograph
and see if you can identify your physical features as one of the
participants in that assembly.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 334," see appendix, opposite p.
7694.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FiSHMAX. I refuse to answer the question under the privileges
of the Ignited States Constitution incorporated in the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the State Central Committee
of the Progressive Party of Michigan ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. FisHMAN. I decline to answer that under the privileges of
the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution.
Mr. Arexs. Were you affiliated with the Civil Kights Congress of
Michigan?
Mrs. Fish:man. I will decline to answer that question under the
privileges of the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the clemency rally for the Rosenbergs
in January 1953, held in Detroit, Mich. ?
Mrs. FisHMAN. I decline to answer that question under the privi-
leges of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you or have you been one of the leadei's of the
Labor Youth League of Michigan ?
Mrs. FisHMAN. I refuse to answer that question under the privi-
leges of the Ll^nited States Constitution incorporated in the fifth
amendment.
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Jackson,
and Scherer.)
Mr. Arens. Now I have a photostatic copy of the Detroit News,
editorial page, which I should like to have exhibited to you: Wed-
nesday, April 14, 1954, containing a letter to the editor on Motlier-
hood and the H-Bomb, signed by Margaret Fishman.
Kindly look at that letter and tell this committee Avhether or not
you are the author of the letter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 335," see appendix, p. 7G95.)
(The witness examines document and confers with counsel.)
Mrs. FisiiMAN. I will decline to answer that question under the
privileges of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
6522 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. FiSHMAX. I decline to answer that question, on tlie same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
iclude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Any questions, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No.
I would like to have a conference with counsel for a moment.
(The committeee and committee counsel confer.)
Mr. Jacksox. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman,
Mr. FiiAZiER. Mr. Scherer, any questions?
Mr. ScHERER. I have no questions.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. Charles A. Hill.
Kindly come forward.
Please remain standing until the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up you.r right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony about to be given at this hear-
ing will be the truth, the whole truth, so help you God ?
Reverend Hill. I do.
TESTIMONY 07 CHARLES A. HILL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
GEOEGE W. CROCKETT, JR., DETROIT, MICH.
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Reverend Hill. Rev. Charles A. Hill, 1660 West Grand Boulevard,
Detroit, Mich., pastor of the Hartford Avenue Baptist Church.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities ?
Reverend Hill. That is the only reason I am here.
Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel ?
Reverend Htll. I am.
Mr. Arexs. Will counsel kindly identify himself?
Mr. Crockett. George W. Crockett, Jr., attorney, 3220 Cadillac
Tower, Detroit, ?.Iich.
Mr. Counsel, the witness has asked that I request that no further
pictures be taken.
Mr. Frazier. All right, as soon as this is over with we will have no
pictures taken.
Mr, Crockett. IMay we have a rule on the question of pictures.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel should be advised, if he knows the rules of
the committee, your sole and exclusive prerogative is to advise your
client with respect to his constitutional rights. _
Mr. Crockett. INIy client is asking for a ruling from the Chair.
Mr. Frazier. It is the rule of the committee that pictures can be
taken when he comes in but not, if he objects, after he begins to testify.
Reverend Hill. I will give them all the pictures they want after
the hearing.
Mr. Frazier. All right.
Mr. Jackson. The Chair has ruled on that matter.
Mr. Crockett. The photographer is violating the rule,
Mr. Frazier. I have ruled on it,
Mr. Arens. Mr, Hill, are you now a Communist at this moment?
COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6523
Reverend Hill. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment of
the Constitution.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Appell, my associate here, is going to exhibit to you
a summary of the proceedings of the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born. Tliese proceedings took place, according to the
document which has been identified in this record, in Detroit, Mich.,
on December 8, 1949.
The National Conference Against Deportation Hysteria.
Kindly look at this document and tell the committee if you are the
Rev. Charles A. Hill of Detroit, Mich., who is listed here as one of
the speakers of the conference.
See exhibit II, appendix, pp. 8275-8302.)
(The witness confers w^ith his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell is going to display to vou a document en-
titled "Call to a Bill of Rights Conference."
This call to a bill of rights conference, according to the document
which has been identified in this record, was in July 1949, under the
auspices of the Civil Rights Congress, and you are identified in this
document as one of the sponsors of this conference, Rev. Charles A.
Hill of Detroit, Mich.
Please look at the document and tell this committee whether or
not you can verify the authenticity of the appearance of your name
in the document.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We have a photostatic copy of the Communist Daily
Worker of April 24, 1949. Mr. Appell will display that to you and
invite your attention to a photograph which appears there. It is
captioned "Tracy Doll, Michigan Democratic State Representative,
signs the giant Civil Rights Congress post card to President Tru-
man demanding that the indictments against the 12 Communist
leaders be scrapped."
Then left to right in that photograph are Nadine Drake, yourself
and Stanley Nowak.
Did you know Nadine Drake and Stanley Nowak to be members
of the Communist conspiracy when you had your picture taken with
them ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 336," see appendix, p. 7696.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you one of the founders of the Civil Rights Con-
gress of Michigan ?
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now w^e have here a photostatic copy of the official
records maintained by the Detroit Telephone Co. relating to the
Civil Rights Federation, which shows that the President was Pro-
fessor Sheppard, U. of M. — University of Michigan ; vice president,
Rev. Charles Hill, minister of Hartford Baptist Church, chairman
of interracial committee; and, executive secretary, Mr. Raskin.
Kindly look at that document and tell the committee while you
are under oath whether that is a true and correct designation of
yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 337," see appendix, p. 7697.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We have still another document we want to display
to you, Mr. Hill.
6524 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
It is a letterhead of the Civil Rights Congress, which has been cited
repeatedly as a Communist-controlled organization. On this letter,
■which is addressed to Dear Congressman, calling upon the Congi'ess-
man to do certain things with reference to some legislation, to defeat
certain anti-Comnninist legislation, we see the name of Rev. Charles
A, Hill.
Please look at that document and see if you can't help this com-
mittee of the Congress b}'^ verifying its authenticity,
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(See exhibit No. 32a, appendix, p, 7139.)
Reverend Hill. 1 decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We exhibit to you now still another document "Clergj^-
men Condemn Deportations !", issued under the auspices of the Amer-
ican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
We see here one of the persons who signs tliis is Charles A. Hill
of Detroit, Mich., Rev. Charles A. Hill of Detroit, Mich.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 338," see appendix, p. 7G98.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr, Arexs. Do you bear the title of reverend ?
Reverend Hill, I do.
Mr. xVrens. Are you a member of a conspiratorial operation which
is dedicated to the destruction of Christian ideology^, Christian beliefs,
and to the promotion of an atheistic, materialistic world ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I am against everything that is contrary to the
teachings of the Bible,
I am opposed to any sort of injustice,
Mr. Arens. Are you opposed to the injustices inflicted by the con-
spiratorial apparatus of the Communist world conspiracy?
Reverend Hill. I am opposed to all injustices.
Mr. Arens. Be specific.
Are you opposed to the Communist Party.
Reverend Hill. I don't care who has an injustice ; I am against it.
Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not you are opposed to the Com-
munist Party.
Reverend Hill. I am opposed to anything that is wrong.
Mr. Arens. Be specific.
Are you opposed to the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I am opj^osed to anything that is wrong. I don't
care where.
Mr. Arens. Can you be specific on that?
ReA^erend Hill. That is specific.
Mr. Arens. Are you opposed to the Communist Party?
Reverend Hill. Maybe you can't understand English.
I am opposed to anything; I don't care what it is.
Mr. Arens. Can you just use the words Communist Party in some
answer ?
Are you opposed to the Communist Party ?
Reverend Hill. The Comnnmist Party isn't the only organization
that is damning the Negroes in America today.
IVIr. Arens. Are 3^ou opposed to the Communist Party?
Reverend Hn.L. I am opposed to anything that is contrary to this
Bible that I carry all the time, and is my guide. I don't care who
does it.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6525
Mr. Arens. Are you opposed to the Communist Party?
Eeverend Hill. I am opposed to everything that is wrong.
Mr. Arens. Would you include the Communist Party as a part of
that which is wrong ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I have answered, and I refuse to answer any more.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that, in view of
the recitation of this witness of all the things he is opposed to, that
he be ordered and directed to tell this committee whether or not he
is opposed to the Communist Party.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I refuse and rely on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestl}^ feel, in view of all the statements you
have made, that if you told this committee truthfully whether or not
you are opposed to the Communist Party you would be supplying
information that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I refuse to answer, relying on the fifth amendment.
I don't have to lie.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Filvzier. Did the witness take the fifth amendment on that.
Reverend Hill. Yes, the fifth. I did, but he can't hear.
Mr Fraziek, Well, now, we will just disregard such remarks.
I imclerstood the witness to take the fifth amendment, but I will
direct him to answer, to do it again in case you didn't hear it.
Mr. Arens. There is a misunderstanding on the record, Mr. Chair-
man.
The question, the principal question outstanding is :
Do you honestly apprehend or fear that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not you are opposed to the Communist Party
jou would be supplying information that might be used against you
in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I decline, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. jMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. FiLvziER. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend PIill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I have a question.
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. During the course of the witness' voluntary state-
ment he said — and I took it down verbatim ; we could check the record
on it:
The Communist Party isn't the only organization damning the Negro iu
America today.
Is the Communist Party, in your opinion, damning the Negro?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer that undci* the fifth amenchnent.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. I would like to read, in view of your assertion a mo-
ment ago that you always stand for truth, or something to that effect,
a quotation from Nicolai Lenin.
6526 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Do you know wlio he was ?
Reverend Hill. I have heard of him. I don't know him.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
We must be able to withstand all this, to agree to all and every sacrifice, and
even if need be to resort to various stratagems, artifices, illegal methods, to
evasions and subterfuges.
That was from N. Lenin.
Do you belong to an organization, or a conspiratorial operation, I
sliould say, which follows the pattern of T^enin i
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Eeverend Hill. I decline to answer, relying on the fifth amendment
because I know the Bible says "Righteousness exalts the nation.*'
Mr. Arens. Do you have a Bible there?
Reverend Hill. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Turn to the first Psalm and see in the first Psalm about
"Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly."
Reverend Hill. I know that. That is where I have been walking
all the time.
Mr. Arens. Have you been walking in the counsel of the ungodly ?
Reverend PIill. No; I haven't.
Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the ungodly group of Com-
munists ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment
Mr. Arens. If you haven't been a member of an ungodly group of
Communists, why in the world would you decline to answer that on
the grounds that you might be giving a little information that could
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you still another exhibit, an invi-
tation to American labor to participate in a peace congress and expo-
sition at the Chicago Coliseum, 1951.
Mr. Appell, will you kindly display that to the witness.
You are one of the persons there who is calling this conference for
peace, are you not?
Look at that exhibit and see if you can't help this Committee on
Un-American xVctivities.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 339a-d," see appendix, pp. 7699-
7702.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Hill. I decline, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We show you a photostatic copy of two pages from
the American Peace Crusader. They have a Michigan Peace Council
according to this Peace Crusader, all formed with Rev. Charles A.
Hill as chairman.
"Won't you, as a minister of the gospel, tell this committee while you
are imder oath whether or not you will admit being chairman of this
peace crusade ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 340a, b," see appendix, pp. 7703,
7704.)
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why? You are not ashamed of being a promoter of
peace, are you? Unless, of course, it is under the auspices of the
Communist conspiracy.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend HnjL,. I have never been ashamed to be for peace.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6527
Mr. Arens. Then stand up and tell this committee whether or not
you "were chairman of the Communist-controlled peace crusade.
Eeverend Hill. I stand on my constitutional rights and decline to
answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to invite joilT attention to " 'Peace' Poll Is
Under Fire," from the Detroit News of May 27, 1951, about the
American Peace Crusade being designated, according to certain patri-
otic people, as Communist inspired and Communist controlled. And
the cliairman of tiiis group is Rev. Charles A. Hill.
Please tell this committee while you are under oath whether or not
you are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 341,"' see appendix, p. 7705.)
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What have you done to protest the trial of the 11
Commimist traitors down in New York City ?
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of what you might have done to
protect
Reverend Hill. Nothing I have done am I ashamed of.
Mr. Arens. Then tell this committee while you are under oath, what,
if anything
Reverend Hill. I am telling you I am declining under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if 3^ou told this committee truth-
fully what you may have done to protest the trial of the 11 Communist
traitors down in New York City you would be supplying information
which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Reverend Hill. I try to tell you I decline under the fifth amendment.
Take whatever interpretation j-ou want.
Mr. Arens. We lay before you a document from the Communist
Daily Worker, Thursday, January 15, 1953, in which a number of
people are protesting the trial of these Communist traitors down in
New York City, including one Charles A. Hill, of Detroit.
Look at that and see if the Daily Worker might have made a mis-
take. Maybe you can help this Committee on Un-American Activities.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 342," see appendix, pp. 7705,
7706.)
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We show you a mimeographed copy of a letter dated
March 21, 1953, si^ied by Rev. C. M. Metcalf, which invites a number
of people to participate in a conference described as the Michigan
Conference to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend the
Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
Tell the committee whether or not you were a participant in this
conference called by Reverend Metcalf.
According to the leaflet, wliich he encloses with his letter, a number
of people sponsored this conference, including a Rev. Charles A. Hill.
Look at that and see if you can't help this Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 343a-c," see appendix, pp. 7707-
7709.)
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
I think that is helping the committee.
Mr. ScHERER. What?
Reverend Hill. I think I am helping the committee when I decline
under the fifth amendment.
6528 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I lav before you still another document, the Communist
Dail}^ Worker of April 3, 1953 ; "McCarran Law Repeal Ur^ed by 93
Notables."
Among the 93 notables whose names are announced by the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born is Rev. Charles A. Hill, of
Detroit.
Look at that document and see if you can't help us.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 344a, b," see appendix, pp. 7710,
7711.)
Reverend Hujl. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. The Committee for the Freedom of Sam Milgrom.
This is the next document I should like to lay before you. It is a
photostatic copy of a letterhead of the group that wants to free Sam
^lilgi'om. One of the cochairmen is Rev. Charles A. Hill.
(See exhibit No. 89, appendix, p. 7254.)
Look at this exhibit now and help the Comniittee on Un-American
Activities by telling us, first of all, who is or who was Sam Milgrom,
and, secondly, whfit did you do to try to get him free ?
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
(Committee members preseiit: Representatives Frazier, Jackson,
and Scherer.)
Mr. Ar^Ns. "We have a reproduction of the New York Times of Au-
gust 8, 1955 : "73 Ask New View in Trials of Reds."
A number of people here are protesting the conviction of the Com-
munist traitors, and want a new trial for them, including a Rev.
Charles A. Hill.
Look at the docimient and see if you can't help the Committee on
Un-American Activities by identifying that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 345," see appendix, p. 7712.)
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Aeexs. Did you attend a National Conference of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in Detroit, Mich. ?
Reverend Hill. I decline.
Mr. Arens. In 1955.
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens You were one of the leaders of that conference, were
you not ?
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of anything you may have done in
pursuit of your objectives of modifying the McCarran -Walter Act,
are you ?
Reverend Hill. I decline imder the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We have here the minutes of the meeting. Rev. Charles
A. Hill makes the opening remarks, and he introduces a number
of people, all of whom liave been identified as Communist agents,
at this conference to repeal the McCarran- Walter Act.
Look at that and tell us whether or not you are properly identified
there as Rev. Charles A. Hill, the chairman of this session.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 346," see appendix, p. 7713.)
Reverend Hnx. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know your lawyer here in any capacity other
than that of attorney and client? Do you know the man who repre-
sents you here ?
He has represented a number of people here today.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6529
Reverend Hill. Yes, I know him. He is the attorney for my
church.
Mr. Arexs. And do you know him in any other capacity?
Reverend Hill. Onl}^ as a gentleman.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a member of the
Communist Party ?
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever served in a closed party meeting with
him ?
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know these other people who have appeared
here with him sitting at the side of them representing them?
Do you know Margaret Fishman ?
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know Peggy Wellman?
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know Saul Grossman ?
Reverend Hill. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. An}' questions, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jacksox. Yes.
I gather you favor the repeal of the McCarran-Walter Act?
Reverend Hill. Yes, I do.
Mr. Jacksox. Do you favor the repeal of the Smith Act?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Jacksox. Tliat is the act
Reverend Hill. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jacksox. Do you favor the repeal of all of the laws that are on
the statute books of the United States Government designed to pro-
tect tlie security of this country against Communist infiltration and
subversion ?
Reverend Hill. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson. No further questions.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
]Mr. Fr\ziek. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arexs. Stanley Nowak is the next witness, if you please, sir.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do A'ou solemnly swear that the testimony about to be given in
this hearing will be truth, and the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. XoAVAK. I do.
TESTIMONY OF STANLEY NOWAK. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL.
GEORGE W. CROCKETT, JR., DETROIT, MICH.
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself b}- name, residence, and (X'cn--
pation.
Mr. XowAK. My name is Stanley Xowak. I live in Detnnt, Tri25
Wikes Street, Detroit, Mich. I served as a union organizer for many
years. I served also for 10 years in the Michigan State Senate, and
at the present time 1 do some public speaking and some free-lance
writing.
Mr. Akens. For what organization do you do the ])ublic speaking-
or free-lance writin<ii;?
6530 CO]M]VIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION '
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. I see no reason why I have to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chaii'man, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
both the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in resj^onse to a subpena
served upon you by the House Connnittee on Un-American Activities?
Ml-. XowAK. I do.
Mr. Arexs. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. XowAK. I am.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Crockett. George W. Crockett, Jr., attorney, 32
Mr. Arens. ISIr. Nowak
Excuse me. I beg your pardon. I apologize.
Mr. Crockett. All right, it is accepted.
3220 Cadillac Tower,^ Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Nowak, do you know your counsel in any capacity
other than the capacity of attorney and client I
Mr. NowAK. Yes.
I knew Mr. Crockett Miien he was a counsel for the UAW.
Mr. Arens. That is United Auto Workers ?
Mr. NowAK. That is right. In fact, it was in that capacity that I
met him first.
Mr. x\rens. Tell us of all the capacities you have known him since
the first capacity in which you knew him.
Mr. NowAK. The only capacity I know him in is as an attorney.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon \
Mr. NowAK. The only capacity that I know Mr. Crockett is the
capacity as an attorney.
Mr. Arens. And did you know him as a fellow member of the
United Auto Workers' staff there ?
Mr. NowAK. Well, I knew him as the attorney for the United Auto
Workers.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in the Communist Party with him?
(The witness Cvonfers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. First of all, this is an improper question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Nowak. Mr. (^hairman, m.ay I again say this is an improper
question and that is why I refuse to answer improper questions on
the cfrounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Abens. Now you said a moment ago you were a State senator.
Mr. NowAK. Yes.
Mr. Arens. In Michigan.
And did you, befoi-e you took your office as a State senator, take an
oath to snpi)()i't and defend the (\)nstitution of the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic?
Mr. NowAK. Kveryoni' who serves in any capacity had to accept an
oath, and I did.
Mr. Arj:ns. Did you at that time yon todk that oath then belong to
an oi'tranization dedicated to the overthrow of the Government of the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6531
United States by force and violence and destruction of the Constitu-
tion of the United States ?
\Lr. NowAK. It is an improper (question. It is a question that is an
unfair question, and therefore I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
ill". Fraziek. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. XowAK. For the record, Mr. Chairman, I again w^ant to repeat
it is an improper question. It is a question that is not put in good
faith, and therefore I exercise my constitutional right to decline to
answer that question on both the lirst and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you Icnow the man that just preceded you to the wit-
ness stand. Rev. Charles Hill 'i
Mr. XowAK. ilr. Chairman, I refuse to serve this committee as an
informer.
You have plenty of informers on your staff, and you can get this
information.
yiv. P^RAziER. It is not necessary for you to make a speech.
Just answer the question or decline to answer.
Mr. Now^\K. I decline to answer, and I want to state the reasons why
I decline to answer.
Mr. Frazier. What were your i-easons ?
Mr. XowAK. The reason is that I am not an informer.
I am not going to come here and testify about other people.
Mr. Frazier. That is not an ansv>er. That is not a legitimate reason
to decline to answer.
Ml-. Xow^^K. That is my reason.
Mr. Frazier. And you knoAV it.
ilr. Arens. Is that the only reason you want to give?
ilr. XowAK. That is my main reason.
yir. Arexs. All right; we will get on to another question.
I want to invite your attention to the gentleman who is going to
stand tliere in the first row, ilr. Stephen J. Schemanske.
yir. Schemanske, would you kindly stand.
(Mr, Schemanske arose.)
Mr. Arens. Would you look over your right shoulder
Mr. NowAK. Sure.
yiv. Arens. Look him in the eye and tell this committee whether or
not he was telling the truth when he this morning took an oath and
identified you as a person known by him to be a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. Mr. Chairman, just before I answer this question, on
the advice of my attorney, he called my attention that I did not men-
tion in the last time I declined to answer the question that I declined
on rhe grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You want to modify your preceding answer? The
other answer you gave was that you didn't want to be an informer.
Now you want to add to that that you do not want to supply in-
formation that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding.
Is that right?
Mr. NowAK. I didn't say that.
Mr. Arens. Then we will get to that point right now.
6532 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Do you honestly apprehend, sir-
Mr. NowAK. Mr. Chairman, I will answer the question in my own
way.
Mr. Arens. You are going to answer whether or not you honestly
apprehend that if you told this committee whether or not you Imew
Reverend Hill you would be supplying information that could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding.
Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest he be ordered and directed
to answer that question.
Mr. Fraziek. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer the question, relying on the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Let's get back to Mr. Schemanske. He testified this
morning under oath that while he was an undercover agent for the
Fedei-al Bureau of Investigation he knew j'ou as a member of the
Communist conspiracy and that you were a Communist.
Was Mr. Schemanske lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. NowAK. Well, I never knew a stool pigeon that told the truth.
I decline to ansM-er the question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. NowAK. I decline again. That's right.
Mr, Arens. "\^niy? Wliy do you decline?
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, NowAK. I decline to answer the question, relying on the fifth
amendment, exercising my constitutional privileges.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske testified that he knew you as a member
of the nationality commission of the Communist conspiracy in this
country. Was he then lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. NowAK. T decline to answer the question.
Mr. xVrens. Where were you born ?
Mr. XowAK. In Poland.
Mr. Arens. When ?
Mr. NowAK, 1903,
Mr, Arens, And when did you come to the United States?
Mr. NowAK. In 1913.
Mr. Arens. And were vou admitted for permanent residence in
1913?
Mr. NowAK. I did (sic).
Mr. Arens. Were you subsequently naturalized?
Mr. NowAK. I was.
Mr. Arens. Where were you naturalized and when?
Mr. NowAK. In Michigan, in 1937.
Mr. Arens. And at the time of your naturalization did you make
any statements with respect to whether or not you were a member of
any organization dedicated to the overthrow of the Government of
the United States by force and violence ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, NowAK. I decline to answer that question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6533
Mr. Arens. Were you, at the time you became a citizen of the
United States by naturalization, a member of the Communist con-
spiracy ?
(The witness confers with his counseL)
Mr. NowAK. I decHne to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. ^Yhyt
Mr. XowAK. I decline.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Fr.\zier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. NowAK. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer the question, re-
lying on my constitutional privileges as stated in the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Fkazier. Proceed, ]\Ir. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Back in 1942 you were a strong advocate of the war
effort, were you not ?
Mr. NowAK. We were all in the war.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon?
Mr. NowAK. We were all in war. It was a policy of our Govern-
ment. And certainly I was in favor of the war to get Hitler, who was
the threat to the world at that time.
Mr. Arens. Xow I can't quite understand something here, and
maybe you can help us out.
In December 1042, according to the Daily Worker, you were a
strong advocate of war, all-out war right away.
In March 1941, wliile the Hitler-Stalin Pact was in force, and
before Hitler invaded Soviet Russia, according to the Communist
Dailj' Worker you were a strong advocate of no war and of peace.
Can you help us on that ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 347a, b," see appendix, pp. 7714,
7715.)
Mr. NowAK. Yes, I can refresh your memory.
^fr. Arens. I wish you would do so.
Mr. NowAK. I testified on that very question 3 or 4 years ago when
this very committee came to Detroit and asked me the very same
question, and I answered that question then.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again. Would you, please ?
Mr. NowAK. I see no reason why 3 or 4 years later I have to be
subpenaed here to answer questions that I have answered if you look
and read your own record.
Therefore
Mr. Arens. I don't recall from the record that you did answer the
question. I recall that you were invoking the fifth amendment right
along.
Mr. NoAVAK. I did answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee why it was you changed from such
a strong proponent of peace during the Hitler-Stalin Pact and such
a condemnei" of the war policies of the United States, and the day after
Hitler attacked Soviet Russia you became a great patriot, all out for
Mar.
See if you can help us on that.
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer your question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We want to invite your attention to another exhibit,
Daily AVorker, March 31, 1941.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 348," see appendix, pp. 7716, 7717.)
85.^33— 57— pt. 1 20
6534 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
"Were you the cliairmaii of the American Committee for Pi'otection
of Foreign Born?
(The witness confers Avith his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. The Communist Daily Worker of March 31, 1941, which
we just referred to, identifies you as a member of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Was the Communist Daily Worker just an informer or just a stool
pigeon or was it right?
Mr. NowAK. I am not responsible for it.
Mr. Arens. Do a'ou call the C\)mmunist Daily Worker a stool
pigeon ?
]\Ir. NowAK. I decline to answer that question. I am not responsible
for what the presses write.
Mr. Arexs. Was the press wrong in this case ?
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. We have here an exhibit concerning Washington
Peace IVIobilization under the auspices of the American Peace Mobili-
zation, held in Washington in 1941. A special panel is going to discuss
a number of things all under this peace mobilization, Washington
Peace Mobilization, and State Senator Nowak is listed here as one of
the speakers.
Please look at this document and see if you can't help the Committee
on Un-American Activities and your government by verifying the
authenticity of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 349," see appendix, p. 7718.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. On the letterhead of the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born the Plonorable Hugh DeLacy is listed as one
of the vice chairmen on this committee. You — the Honorable Stanley
Nowak — were the national chairman at that time.
Look at this letterhead and see if you can't help the Committee on
Un-American Activities by telling us whether or not you are correctly
identified on this letterhead of the American Committee for the Pro-
tection of the Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 350," see appendix, p. 7719.)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer that question.
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Jackson
and Scherer.)
Mr. Arens. We have the letterhead of the National Legislative
Conference on Naturalization and Deportation, in 1948, showing the
Honorable Stanley Nowak as chairman.
Look at this letterhead and see if you can't help the Committee on
Un-American Activities and tell about your activities here in this Na-
tional Legislative Conference on Naturalization and Deportation.
(Docun^ent marked "Exhibit No. 351," see appendix, p. 7720.)
(The witness confers with, his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to ansAver the question.
Mr. Arens. Now we invite your attention to still another exhibit,
a photostatic copy of the Daily Worker of March 3, 1948.
This story deals with the picketing of the office of the Immigration
Service in Detroit. It tells about a number of people who were de-
manding the release of the Communist Gerhart Eisler, Communist
Ferdinand Smith, Communist Irving Potash and other Communists
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6535
who were then in custody of the Immigration and Naturalization Serv-
ice. A number of people are identified as picketing, including one
Stanley Xowak.
Kindly tell us whether or not you are properly identified in that
article.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 352," see appendix, p. 7721.)
Mr. NoAVAK. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. You kncAV, of course, that each and every one of these
persons who was then in custody of the Immigration and Naturaliza-
tion Service was an agent of a foreign-controlled conspiracy dedicated
to the overthrow of the Government of the United States, did you not ?
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. NowAK. I decline. I don't have to
Mr. Aken's. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest he be ordered and
directed to ansAver the question if he just declines to answer and that
is ail.
Mr. Fraziee. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. NoTVAK. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of my
constitutional privileges as stipidated in the fifth amendment. In
fact, in the first amendment, too.
Mr. Arens. What is the Hobbs bill ? What was the Hobbs bill ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you recall what the Hobbs bill v.-as?
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. Can you refresh my recollection ?
Mr. Arens. Well, perhaps this exhibit would. And I hope, after
your recollection is refreshed, voii will tell us a little bit about it.
This exhibit is entitled "Defeat the Hobbs Bill."'
One of the speakers at this mass meeting that is to be held in Detroit
is Stanley Nowak who was then a candidate for Congress, and former
State Senator.
Looji at this and tell us whether or not that refreshes your recollec-
tion vvitli reference to the Hobbs bill.
(Docuuient marked "Exhibit No. 353," see appendix, p. 7722.)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to ansAver the question.
Mr. Akens. We have here a photostatic copy of a letterhead of
the American Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born announc-
ing a national conference here in Chicago. And the chairman of this
National Conference of the iVinerican Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born Avho signs this letter is the Honorable Stanley Nowak,
national chairman.
Look at this and see if this refreshes your recollection with refer-
ence to your chairmanship of that conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 354," see appendix, p. 7723.)
(The witness confers Avith his counsel.)
Mr. NoAVAK. I decline to ansAver the question. It is an improper
<luestion.
Mr. AuENs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the Avitness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to ansAver the question.
Mr. NoAVAK. INIr. Chairman, because it is an improper question, I
refuse to answer, and exercise my privileges, as I mentioned before,
in the fifth amendment.
6536 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. If it is an improper question, why are you obliged to
use the fifth amendment. "VMiy don't you just say vou won't answer
it?
Mr. NowAK. I said I won't answer it.
Mr. Arens. Now did you participate as one of the leaders in a
conference of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in 1949 for the purpose of ending hysteria or a conference
against deportation hysteria?
Do you recall that ?
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. You were one of the ringleaders of that conference,
were you not ?
Mr. NowAK. I decline.
Mr. Arens. Now we invite your attention to a reproduction of an
article from the Daily Worker. A nmnber of leading people endorse
the Progressive Party movement, including Michigan State Senator
Stanley Nowak.
Look at that and see if you can't help this committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 355." see appendix, p. 7724.)
Mr. Nowak. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. "\^niy?
Mr. Nowak. I decline.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazif-r. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nowak. Mv. Chairman, once again I decline on my constitu-
tional grounds as stipulated in the fifth amendment.
I have said that before, and that is my explanation.
Mr. Arens. You have been a great leader for civil rights, haven't
you?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nowak. Of course. Yes.
Mr, Arens. And you are not ashamed of anything you did to pro-
mote civil rights in this country, are you?
Mr. Nowak. I am not ashamed : no.
Mr. Arens. Then tell this conmiittee while you are under oath
whether or not you are and have been one of the officers of the Civil
Rights Congress.
Look at this exhibit while you answer.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 856," see appendix, p. 7725.)
Mr. Nowak. I decline to answer the question because I consider
this whole procedure and the question as improper.
Mr. Jackson. And what else?
Mr. Arens. Do you have no other reasons ?
Mr. Jackson. No other reason ?
Mr. Nowak. No.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfullj^ suggest that the Avitness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his coiuisel.)
Mr. Nowak. I refuse to answer the question, relying on the priv-
ileges that I have in the fifth amendment.
COMIHUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6537
Mr. .Vrens. You haven't lost confidence in the courts of the United
States, have you '?
Mr. NowAK. I don't have to answer that question.
I have confidence in them.
Mr. Arens. You have confidence in the courts.
It is a curious thing here. The Communist Daily Worker of Novem-
ber 8, 1949, immediately after the 11 Communist traitors were
convicted, quotes you as saying the people had lost confidence in courts.
Look at that article there and see if you can't refresh your recollection.
Perhaps you were misquoted. We don't know.
See if you can't tell us whether or not you did have confidence in
the courts when the 11 Communist traitors were convicted.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 357," see appendix, p. 7726.)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer that question for obvious reasons.
Mr, Arens. You have been a great humanitarian to get amnesty
for certain people, haven't you '?
Mt. Nowak. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Who were the persons for whom you tried to get
anxnesty ?
Mr. Nowak. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. We have a letterhead of the National Committee
To Win Amnesty for the Smith Act Victims. Those are the Com-
munist traitors that have been put in the penitentiary under the
Smith Act for conspiring to overthrow this Government by force and
violence. And this letterhead contains the names of a number of
people who were leading lights and officers, promoters of this organ-
ization, including Stanley Nowak.
Look at this letterhead and see if you can't help the committee by
telling us if those are the people for whom you have been, purely by
hirnianitarian impulses, trjnng to win amnesty.
(See exhibit No. 78, appendix, p. 7227.)
Mr. Now^AK. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. We have asked you, have we not, if you were vice chair-
man of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Now^AK. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Nowak. I decline.
Mr. Arens. You have been active in still another group, haven't
you — that is the Conference of Deportee Defense Committees?
A number of defense committees in 1951 held a conference here in
Chicago, and one of the leading lights of that conference, as identi-
fied here in the Communist Daily Worker of INIarch 21, 1952, is a
Stanley Nowak.
Look at this document and see if the Commmiist Daily Worker was
right or if it was wrong or whether or not it was a stool pigeon.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 358," see appendix, p. 7727.)
Mr. Nowak. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arp:ns. Now you have been pretty active in legislative matters
on the national scene, have you not, Mr. Nowak?
Mr. Nowak. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. You are not ashamed of anything you did for (lie up-
lift and good of humanity?
Mr. Nowak. No.
QoS6 COMJMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. By calling for the repeal of any legislation you deemed
unwholesome ?
Mr. NowAK. Anything I do or say is public knowledge and a public
record.
Mr. Arexs And you, of course, would not hesitate to tell us about
it, would 5'ou ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. Voluntarily under proper circumstances; ye*.
Mr. Arens. Would those circumstances be when you are released
from the obligation of your oath to tell the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. You see whenever I served, Mv. Chairman, on legisla-
tive committees like 3'ours I liave never seen proceedings like this one.
This is the only committee, legislative committee, that follow> such
proceeding.
And because of the
Mr. Arens. Let me ask you the question^ — —
Mr. NowAK. Let me finish.
Mr. Arens. If you and j^our fellow Communists ever took over this
Government would j^ou run a proceeding like this ?
Stand up and tell this Committee on Un-American Activities
whether or not j^ou are the Stanley Nowak listed here as the outstand-
ing trade unionist leader of the Polish-American people, former State
senator of Michigan, minority floor leader calling' for the repeal of
the Walter-McCarran Act, all under the auspices of the New England
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 206, appendix, p. 7457.)
Stand up and tell this committee of the American Government
whether or not you are that Stanley Nowak.
Mr. NowAK. First of all. this kind of a speech will make no effect
upon me. It makes no effect on anybody.
You are not frightening me. I am not afraid. I am an experienced
man. I Avill answer quietly
Mr. Arens. You have had experience in the Communist conspiracy.
]\Ir. NowAK. Never mind. I resent that.
Mr. Arens. You don't want to talk about that.
Talk about this exhibit and tell this Committee on L^n- American
Activities whether or not you are the Stanley Nowak that appeared
before the New England Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
urging the repeal of the Walter-McCari-an Act.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. I refuse to answer your question.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mr. NowAK. I don't have to explain why.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witn.e.?- be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. NowAK. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer the question because
these are impro]5er questions.
Mr. Arens. And have you got some other reason ?
Mr. NowAK. I rely upon the ccmstitutional rights as stipulated in
the fifth amendment.
I resent this interruption. I leBent this behavior. If you think
jow are intimidating me you are badly mistaken.
COMJNIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6539
Mr. Aeexs. We are not trying to intimidate 3^011 at all.
"We lay before you a copy of the Communist Daily Worker of May
12, 1953, reporting a Cleveland banquet. It says "Stanlej^ Nowak
will be honored here at a banquet.' He is touring the country lighting
for repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act. The banquet is sponsored
by another organization, the Ohio Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
Look at this article and see if that is one of the organizations that
you have been speaking before, as you said in one of your earlier
observations here toda3% that you were a speaker for various organiza-
tions. Maj'be you could help this committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 359," see appendix, p. 7427.)
(The witness confers Avith his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. My answer should be obvious. I refuse to answer a
question concerning whether I have a right to speak,
I have a right to speak.
Mr. Arexs. There has been no suggestion that j'ou don't have a
right to speak. In fact, we want 3'ou to speak. We want you to do a
little more talking than you are now.
Tell this committee. Go on and speak and tell this committee
whether or not ^'ou are the Stanley- Xowak that addressed that Ohio
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Speak.
Tell us while you are under oath.
Mr. NowAK. I will refuse to answer that question. You know the
reason why. You put that question.
Mr. Arexs. Of course.
But I want the record to reflect it, Mr. Nowak.
Tell us why you refuse to answer that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. I refuse to answer the question,
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the question,
Mr. Frazter. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Nowak. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer that question on my
constitutional grounds as stipulated, both, as I said often, on the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. We still have another article, this one about your speak-
ing to the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Hon. Stanley Xownk, former State senator and target of the Jus-
tice Department in denaturalization proceedings, is going to speak
out there, according to the Communist Daily Worker or the Commu-
nist Daily People's World, I beg vour pardon, of Wednesday, May 27,
1953.
Look at this article and tell the Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties Avhether or not jou are the Stanley Nowak that spoke out there
at the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 360," see appendix, p. 7728.)
Mr. Nowak. I refuse to answer the question.
I have a i-ight to speak, and this connnittec has no right to question
n)y right to speak.
Mr. x\rexs. Of course, you have a riglit to speak. That is what
we want }'ou I0 do. We want 50U to speak now and tell us the truth.
6540 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Are you the Stanley Xowak that made that speech out there?
Mr. NowAK. You release me from subpena and I will freely tell
you what 1 think about it.
Mr. Arens. I^et's just get that point clear, too.
You realize, Mr. Nowak, that you are presently under oath, do you
not, before this committee?
Mr. NowAK, I am. I realize that.
Mr. Arens. You realize also if you lie to the committee you can be
prosecuted for perjury, do you not?
Mr. NowAK. I am fully aware of it.
Mr. Arens. Then tell this committee while you are under oath
whether or not you are a Communist.
Mr. Nowak. I refuse to answer the question.
IVir. Arens. After you are released from your oath and released
from the pains and penalties of perjury, do you intend to step out
in the hall or go back to Detroit or make a public statement: "Of
course, I am not a Communist, but I wasn't going to tell that witch-
hunting, Fascist, redbaiting House Un-American Activities Com-
mittee that I wasn't a Communist?"
Do you propose to do that?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. NowAK. My answer is just to laugh at you because you are a
comical
Mr. Jackson. I would say that before some of the Poles who are
suffering under the atrocities of the Russians in Poland get a hold
of it, both in Detroit and elsewhere, it might be a good idea to make it
clear to the world that you are not a Communist.
Mr. NowAK. ■^Vhat do you know about Poland, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. I know a great deal about what the
Mr. Nowak. You know nothing about Poland.
Mr. Jackson. Would you like to comment and give your opinion on
Russian activities in Poland?
Mr. Nowak. Have you brought me here to testify on the Russian
activities in Poland?
Mr. Jackson. I am inviting you to do it.
You speak all over the country. Make a speech now about Poland.
Mr. Nowak. I will challenge you to a public debate.
Mr. Jackson. The only time I would talk to you at all is when you
are under oath. I wouldn't believe you under any other circum-
stances.
Mr. Nowak. Because you are afraid to meet me in a public debate,
Mr. Arens. Since we have gotten into this subject of your knowl-
edge of Poland, tell this committee whether or not you have been in
contact with the Polish consulate in Detroit.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nowak. I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another exhibit here with reference
to Stanley Nowak.
He is going to make a speech on the McCarran Act victims, accord-
ing to this article in the Communist Daily People's World, under date
of June 5, 1953.
"Why don't you tell this committee while you are under oath, Mr.
Nowak, and while you can be prosecuted if you lie to the committee,
whether or not you are this Nowak ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6541
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 361," see appendix, p. 7729.)
Mr. NowAK. I told this committee many times, today and on pre-
vious occasions, why I refuse to answer such questions. And I refuse
to answer this question.
And it ought to be public knowledge to you people you are wasting
time, you are wasting public funds for these kinds of investigations.
You are getting nowhere.
Mr. Jacksox. jNIr. Chairman, I for once agree with the witness. I
think it is an absolute waste of lime to carry on.
The facts of his association have been so well established that there
is no further use of proceeding.
I suggest he be released and get on to another witness unless counsel
has some overriding matter.
Mr. Arexs. We have several other exhibits, Mr. Chairman, identi-
fying this witness with some activities of various committees of the
Communist Party.
These exhibits have already been identified in the record, bttt we
felt that we ought to at least invite them to the attention of the wit-
ness in case he wants to denj' them.
Mr. Jackson. In case what?
Mr. Arp:ns. He might want to deny them.
One of these is an article in the Communist Daily Worker of No-
vember 16, 1953, with reference to a big rally of the American Peace
Crusade, Stanley Nowak, speaker.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 362," see appendix, p. 7730.)
Please look at that exhibit, Mr. Nowak, while you are under oath
and tell this committee whether or not you are he.
Mr. Nowak. I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. ]Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr, ScHERER. Mr. Now^ak, you are interested in striking from the
McCarran-Walter Immigration Act those provisions which make it
possible to deport those who have been active in the Communist Party
of the United States, are you not ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nowak. Mr. Chairman, during this whole hearing you did not
allow me to express my opinion on the Yv^alter-McCarran Act at all.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nowak. I want to point out this, that, in answering to the
quostiop., I agree with thousands of other people that the entire act
should be rewritten.
Mr. SciiERER. In rewriting the act, do you want to leave out those
provisions of the IMcCarran- Walter Act which give to this Govern-
ment the right to deport individuals like you who have been engaged in
Communist Party activities?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Now^vk. It is obvious that 1 can do nothing else but to decline
a question that is worded as the one that you asked.
Mr. ScHERER. I will leave out any reference to you.
Are you interested then. Witness, in eliminating, in striking out
of the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act those provisions which en-
able us to deport aliens who have been —
6542 COJMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Wait a m i nute. Let me finish.
(Continuing :) Aliens who have been active in the Commnnist Party
in the United States ?
(The witness confers with his counseL)
Mr. NowAK. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. SciiERER. I thought you would decline to answer.
Now, the fact is that 3'ou were naturalized. You are a naturalized
citizen. Is it not?
Mr. NowAK. I am.
Mr. ScHERER. And the Department of Justice has commenced pro-
ceedings to have you denaturalized. In fact, you have been ordered
denaturalized, haven't you, and you have appealed that decision?
Isn't that right?
Mr. NowAK. Correct.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Now, if you can succeed in having the provisions of the McCarran-
Walter Act stricken, tliose provisions which provide for the deporta-
tion of aliens who have been engaged in Communist activities in this
country, then you will be able to stay here, won't you ?
Mr. XowAK. Again, the way you worded the question, I have no
choice but to decline to answer.
Mr. SciiERER. It seems obvious that
Mr. NowAK. Yes ; it is obvious, but I can't answer a loaded question.
Mr. ScHERER. It is not a loaded question. It is simple as day fol-
lowing night that your interest is in staying in this country, because
if they had not commenced proceedings to denaturalize you, I certainly
would have asked that this committee recommend to the Department
of Justice that you be denaturalized and deported because you were
an alien that came here and had the benefits of citizenship, and we can
see from the testimony today how you used the citizenship that was
given to you.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. Are there any other questions ?
Mr. Arens. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Wait a minute, Mr. Counsel. How many more witnesses do you
have?
Mr. Arens. Two more today. We could finish in another half hour.
Mr. Frazier. Under those conditions I want, under authority
granted me, to establish a subcommittee composed of Mr. Scherer,
Mr. Jackson and myself as another subcommittee to hear these other
two witnesses.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Dolores Storich.
Kindly come forward.
Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers the oath
to you.
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Jackson,
and Scherer.)
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony about to be given will
be the truth and the whole truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Storich. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOlSr 6543
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOLOEES STORICH, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, GEORGE W. CROCKETT, JR., DETROIT, MICH.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Storich. Dolores Storich. I am an officeworker.
Mr. Arens Wliere do you work ?
Mrs. Storich. I work for Clean Coverall Supply in Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties?
Mrs. Storich. That is right.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Storich. I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself.
Mr. Crockett. George "VV. Crockett, jr., attorney, 3220 Cadillac
Tower, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. When were 3' ou born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. January 1, 1921.
Mr. Arens. Where?
Mrs. Storich. In Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Arens. Under what name?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. Dolores Leutchman.
Mr, Arens. Are you now a Communist?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer that question.
]Mr. Arens. AAliy ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
-Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. ]\Ir. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
^Ir. Frazier. You are directed to answer that question.
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer that, relying on the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Stephen J. Sche-
manske ?
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer that question.
]Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mrs. Storich. 1 refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
oideied and directed to answer that question.
!Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question,
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich, I refuse to answer, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Schemanske testified this morning that while an
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation he knew
you as a Communist.
Was he lying or telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs, Storich. I refuse to answer.
6544 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answ^er, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you one of the leading lights of the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to ansAver that question.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you are one of the leaders of the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer that, relying on the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Did you go to Washington in March of 1955 for any
purpose ?
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. You went to Washington in March of 1955 as a part
of a lobby delegation, did you not, to contact the various Congress-
men and Senators to pressure them to emasculate the Walter-Mc-
Carran Act ; isn't that true ?
Mi's. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know or did you know Congressman Ruth
Thompson, a very fine Congressman from Michigan? Or Congress-
woman, I should say, from Michigan.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. Hoay long has she been in Congress ?
Mr. Arens. Some years.
In March of 1955 did you go to various offices including the office
of Representative Ruth Thompson from Michigan, and represent to
her that she should participate in the movement to repeal the security
provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I went to Washington. I visited some Congressmen,
but I do not remember visiting Miss Thompson. I don't know if I
heard of her.
Mr. Arens. Tell us under whose auspices you went to Washington
and when.
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. When did vou go to Washington? AAliat vear^ Was
that in 1955 ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. It is possible it could have been.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6545
Mr. Arexs. AAHiat was your purpose in going to Washington?
(The Avitness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I went to petition my Congressman to seek repeal
of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. Did you see a number of Congressmen ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I remember seeing 2 or 3,
Mr. Arens. And did you tell them the committee that you were
identified with ? Of did you just tell them that you were private citi-
zen Dolores Storich coming down out of public interest to enlist their
support to re})eal the McCarran-Walter Act?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I don't recall,
Mr. Arens. Wlio paid your expenses ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. ScHEitER. Do you deny that you did not disclose to any of the
Members of Congress whom you visited that you were a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. How many people accompanied }ou on this visit to
Wasliinirton?
Mrs. ^^torich. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Were there as many as a dozen ?
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. You understand we recognize your right and commend
anyone for coming to Washington to expreas their views to their
Congi-essmen. We want you to tell us whether or not when you ex-
pressed your views to the Congressmen you told them you were a
member of the Communist conspiracj" and under the discipline of
the Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
May I have a glass of water ?
Mr. Arens. How many people were with you on this sojourn ?
Mrs. Storich. May I have a glass of water, please ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Just tell us how manj'- were with you.
C'onld you tell us how many were with you ?
Mrs. Storich. I want a glass of water.
{The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I repectfully suggest the witness be
■ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. Several. I do not remember the exact number.
Mr. Arens. Were there as many as ten ?
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Were there as many as five?
6546 COMMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs, Storich. I don't remember.
Mr. Akens. Were there as mail}' as two other persons ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Storich. Tliere were more than two.
Mr. Arens. By what mode of transi)ortation did you go ?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Storich. As far as I am concerned, I motored down. I drove
down.
Mr. Arens. Was it as part of a group or were you part of a group
that went from Detroit and other groups coming from another part
of the country, to your knowledge?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Stomch. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. We lay before you the proceedings of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born of December 1954:. in
which Dolores Storich of Detroit is one of the leaders of a panel group.
Kindly look at that document and see if you can help this Committee
on Un-American Activities.
Mrs. Storich. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. Are you now a member of the Michigan Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
ISIrs. Storich. I decline to answer,
Mr. Arexs. Are you now a member of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
]Mrs. Storich. I decline to answer.
Mr, Arexs. Are you now a Communist ?
Mrs. Storich. I decline to answer.
]\Ir. Arexs. Do you know a woman by the name of Bereniece
Baldw in ?
Mrs. Storich. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. Bereniece Baldwin likeAvise, in addition to the witness
who testified today — Mr. Schemanske — took an oath before this com-
mittee and identified you as a member of the Communist conspiracy.
Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
Mrs. Storich. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
iMr. Frazier, You are directed to answer.
Mrs. Storich. I decline, relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr, Frazier. Is there anything else? Are you through?
Mr. Arexs. We are through with her ; yes, sir,
Mr, Jacksox. No questions, thank you.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. I have no questions.
The witness is dismissed,
Mr. Arexs. Tillie Carle Rogers.
Kindly come forward.
Remain standing wdiile the chairman administers the oath to you,
please.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this
hearing will be the truth and the whole truth, so help you God?
JNIrs. Rogers. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6547
TESTIMONY OF MRS. TILLIE ROGERS, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, IRVING G. STEINBERG, CHICAGO, ILL.
jNIr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. KoGERS. My name is Tillie Rogers. I reside at 3948 Jackson
Boulevard. I am employed as an office worker.
Mr. Arexs. Where ?
]\Irs. Rogers. I am apprehensive of that question in its present
settino:, and therefore invoke the fifth amendment not to testify to
that.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee where
you worked you would be giving information that might be used
against you in a criminal proceeding?
3Irs. Rogers. Again I decline to answer that question, on the same
grounds.
]Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel?
Mrs. Rogers. I am, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Steixberg. Irving G. Steinberg, 180 West Washington, Chi-
cago,
Mr. Arexs. Are you a married lady? Is it Miss or Mrs. Rogers?
Mrs. Rogers. Mrs.
Mr. Arexs. And your husband's name?
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer that question and invoke the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer that question.
(The Avitness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. I am apprehensive of that question in the present
setting, and therefore decline to answer on the gi'ounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Are you now a Communist ?
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know a person by the name of Lee Lundgren ?
L-u-n-d-g-r-e-n.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Lee Lundgren testified before this committee that he
knew you as a Communist. Was lie lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mrs. Rogers. I invoke the fifth amendment as my right not to
testify to that question.
Mr. x\rexs. Do you know a man or a person by the name of Anzelm
Czarnowski? A-n-z-e-1-m C-z-a-r-n-o-w-s-k-i.
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Czarnowski testified before the Subversives Activi-
ties Control Board just last year that he knew you as a Communist.
Was lie lying or telling the truth ?
6548 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Rogers. Again I invoke the fifth amendment as the basis of
my right to refuse to testify to that question.
Mr. Arens. ^AHiat was your maiden name, please ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. Will you repeat the question ?
Mrs. Rogers. Will you please repeat that question ?
Mr. Arens. Your maiden name?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogp:rs. I am apprehensive of answering that question in the
present atmosphere, and therefore invoke the fifth amendment again.
Mr. Arens. Well, have you gone under the name of Tillie Carle ?
Mrs. Rogers. I have already answered.
Mr. Arens. C-a-r-1-e?
Mrs. Rogers. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that the witness be directed to answer as to
what her maiden name was.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question, what your
maiden name was.
( The witness con f ers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment, which specifies that I shall not be compelled to
testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. We lay before you a photostatic copy of "Review of
the Year 1947" of the American Committee for Protection of Foi-eign
Born.
It says here that the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born has certain offices and certain officers, including Tillie Carle,
executive secretary. That is the Midwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. That is a new one on this record today, at least.
Please look at that document and tell this committee whether or not
you are accurately designated as executive secretary of the Midwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 363," see appendix, pp. 7731-
7738.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green ?
Mrs. RoGFJts. Again I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Well, Abner Green, one of the Communist comrades,
one of the agents of the conspiracy, before the Subversive Activities
Control Board testified, when they had the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born up for citation, that the first secretary
of the Midwest Committee was Tillie Carle.
Was Abner Green lying about you?
Mr. Steinberg. How many questions in that ?
Mr. Arens. Just that one question. Counsel.
Was Green lying about you when he said that you were the first
executive secretary of the Midwast Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mrs. Rogers. I invoke the fifth amendment as the basis of my right
to refuse to testify to that question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6549
Mr. Arens. We have a re])ort of the mass meeting of the Midwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born held in 1948 in Chicago.
It lists Tillie Carle as one of the speakers of this group.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell this committee whether or not you were
a speaker of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
held in Chicago in 1948.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. Would you repeat the date of that?
Mr. Arens. Yes. It was 1948.
I am sure, having gotten that more specific designation, you will be
able to help us ; 1948, ISIay 23, in Chicago.
Mrs. Rogers. Would you tell me the time of that?
Mr. Arens. It was an evening meeting. Admission was $1. It was
a mass meeting. The first anniversary of the Midwest Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born.
Does that ring a bell ? Does that help you ? If so, we expect you
to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. I must decline to answer that question on the grounds
of botli the fifth amendment and the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now you have been active in not only trying to get the
McCarran- Walter Act repealed but you have also been active in get-
ting a number of other pieces of legislation repealed, have you not,
by the Civil Rights Congress?
(The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer that question, and I refer to the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you one of the leading lights of the Civil Rights
Congress up there?
Mrs. Rogers. I must decline to answer that question on the basis of
the fifth amendment.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We lay before you a photostatic copy of The Lamp
(December 1948- January 1949) of the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born in Avhicli they set forth the new officers of
the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Tillie Carle Rogers has just resigned, and they have got a new execu-
tive secretary — Mildred Treft'man.
Did you know Mildred Treffman?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 364," retained in committee files.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. Would you repeat your question?
Mr. Arens. Do you know Millie Trelfman, your successor as execu-
tive secretary of the jNIidwest (\)mmittee for Protection of Foreign
Boi-n ? Did you know lier?
(The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We thought, if you did, you might be able to tell
us wliether slie w%as a (V)mmmiist and help this committee and you.r
Government in its effort to rout out the Communist conspiracy.
Mrs. Rogers. I must again decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. You are under no compulsion to do it unle.ss you
actually fear that by giving a truthful answer to flint que.stion you
853.3."i— 57— pt. 1 27
6550 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
■u-oulcl be supplying information wliich would be used against you
and could be used aoainst you in a criminal proceeding.
Mrs. EoGEKS. Well, I can only assimie that, from the proceedings
that have been going on, the conduct of the committee is such as
not to hold impartial hearings. And, therefore, I decline to answer
both on the grounds of the first amendment and the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, ma'am.
Now we have a photostatic copy of the letterhead of the Civil
Rights Congress of Illinois, listing one of the leading lights of the
executive board as Tillie Carle.
Look at this document and see if you can't help the Committee on
Un-American Activities by verifying the authenticity of that docu-
ment.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 365," see appendix, p. 7739.)
(The witness and her counsel examine document.)
Mr. Steinberg, The first is Jane Rogers.
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question.
Mr. Steinberg. Will you repeat the question?
Mr. Arens. Are you the Tillie Carle in that document?
Mrs. Rogers. I invoke the fifth amendment, and I decline to
answer.
Mr. Arens. We have a reproduction of a bulletin of the Com-
munist newspaper, the Chicago Star, listing the officers and board of
directors of this publication.
According to this document, you are, or you were, the circulation
manager of the Chicago Star.
Would you kindly look at this document and tell us whether or
not you are accurately described there as circulation manager of the
Chicago Star?
^The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Jackson,
and Scherer.)
Mrs. Rogers. It would seem
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. Will you show us her name, please ?
(Mr. Appell indicates.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rogers. It would seem to me that this question is highly
irrelevant in line with the stated principles when you opened the
session this morning. And on the basis particularly^ of the first amend-
ment, I decline to answer that question. And I further decline to
answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a bulletin issued Avith respect
to the anniversary celebration of Haym Salomon Center under the
auspices of the 24th Ward Club of the Communist Party.
And here one of the participants of this group — in fact, the master
of ceremonies — is Tillie Carle.
Look at this document and see if that refreshes your recollection
with reference to your participation in this festive occasion.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 3G6a, b," see appendix, pp. 7740,
774L)
(The witness and her counsel examine document.)
Mrs. Rogers. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of
fhe fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6551
We thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Frazier. The witness will be dismissed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, may I let the record reflect that we hav(^
one other witness who was under subpena — Mildred Kornacker. But
her counsel presented a doctor's certificate. So we are not calling
her. It is a doctor's certificate from a man whom we understand is
a reputable doctor, to the effect that she is presently indisposed be-
cause of a throat condition, a very bad cold, or tonsilitis, and not
able to be with us today.
Mr. Frazier. "VVe will recess until 10 in the morning.
The committee will be in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 15 p. m., the subcommittee was recessed, to bpi
reconvened at 10 a, m., Tuesday, December 4, 195G. Connnittee mem-
bers present : Representatives Fi'azier, Jackson, and Scherer.
C03IMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 4, 1956
United States House of REPRESENTATmES,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Chicago^ III.
public hearing
The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10 : 05 a. m., in room
209, Federal Courthouse, Chicago, 111., Hon. James B. Frazier, Jr.
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present: Eepresentatives Jamas B. Frazier,
Jr., of Tennessee; Harold H. Velde, of Illinois; and Donald L. Jack-
son, of California.
Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; Donald T. Appell,
investigator ; and Richard S. Weil, staff member.
( Present at the time of convening : Representatives Frazier, Velde,
and Jackson.)
]Mr. Frazier. The committee will come to order.
Let the record show that a quorum of the subcommittee is present^ —
Mr. Velde, Mr. Jackson, and myself.
Call your first witness.
Mr. Arens. Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr., please come forward.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hancl.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be given at this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Caldwell. I do.
TESTIMONY OE NATHAN E. CALDWELL, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, IRVING G. STEINBERG.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Caldwell. Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr., 4752 Champlain Avenue.
I am not employed.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Caldwell, in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities?
Mr. Caldwell. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Caldwell. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Steinberg. My name is Irving G. Steinberg, 180 West Wasli-
ington.
G553
6554 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Caldwell, I iindei-stood you to say you are not
employed,
Mr. Caldwell. That is what I said, yes.
Mr. Arens. What was your last employment, please ?
(The witness confers with his comisel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I am apprehensive about answering
that question in this setting. Therefore, I decline to answer under the
privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born?
Mr. Caijdweli.. In Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. When?
Mr. Caldwell. March 9, 1929.
Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, just a thumbnail sketch of your
education.
Mr. Caldwell. I attended schools, in the public schools of Chicago,
and attended Lincoln University of Pennsylvania, and Roosevelt Uni-
versity here in Chicago.
Mr. Arens. Did you receive a degree?
Mr. Caldwell. No, I haven't.
Mr. Arens. When did you complete your education ?
Mr. Caldwell. I haven't completed it.
Mr. Arens. Are you still attending school ?
Mr. Caldwell. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. Now tell us, if you please, the principal employment
which you have had since you reached adulthood.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldweli>. I give the same answer that I gave before to the
previous question relating to employment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. What answer is that?
Mr. Caldwell. I am apprehensive of answering that question in
this particular setting. Therefore, I decline to answer, invoking my
rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is there any employment which you have had since you
have reached adulthood concerning which you can tell this Committee
on Un-American Activities without revealing information which
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I am apprehensive of answering that
question, and invoke my rights under the fifth amendment.
I am not compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the last principal question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The W'itness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer the question, Mr. Chairman,
invoking my rights under the fifth amendment, specifically that sec-
tion which gives me the privilege of not being compelled to testify
against myself.
Mr. Arens. When did you last have employment?
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I hate to
It seems the point is being belabored.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6555
I can only repeat that I am apprehensive of answering that ques-
tion or similar questions in this particular setting. And I invoke my
rights under the fifth amendment. And I cannot be compelled to
testify against myself.
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this record
now reflect an order and direction by the chairman to this witness
to answer the last principal question.
Mr. FriYzier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question,
invoking my rights under the fifth amendment.
I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a photostatic copy of the letter-
head of the IMidwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. This
letterhead shows administrative secretary, Natlian Caldwell, Jr.
Please look at that letterhead and tell this committee whether or
not you are accurately described as the administrative secretary of
the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 367," see appendix, p. 7742.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, the question is irrelevant and im-
material to this hearing, and I decline to answer for those reasons and
the further reason it violates my rights under the first amendment and
the fifth amendment, and I will not be compelled to testify against
myself.
Mr. Arens. "Would you accommodate the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities, which is undertaking to disclose subversion in this
country, by signing your name so that we could make a comparison
of signatures? Would you kindly do that while you are under oath
here ? And help the committee ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, my signature on the document that
was placed before me did not appear there in any place, and I w^ill
not sign a blank piece of paper.
Mr. Arens. Well, then, would you accommodate the Committee on
Un-American Activities by verifying the authenticity of your signa-
ture appearing on a letter on the letterhead of the Midwest Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, Nathan Caldwell, administrative
secretary? And this letter calls upon the recipients to urge them to
telegraph the President with reference to the McCarran-Walter bill.
Please look at this letter now and see if you can accommodate
the Committee on Un-American Activities by verifying the authen-
ticity of the second signature appearing on this letter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 3()8," see appendix, p. 7743.)
(The w^itness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answ^er that question.
The question is immaterial and irrelevant. And I further refuse to
answer the question, basing mj^self on the rights given me under the
first amendment of the Constitution and the fifth amendment of the
Constitution, specifically in that I am not compelled to testify against
ray self.
6556 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr, Arens. Now you will observe on that letter, which has just been
laid before you, you are described as the administrative secretary of
the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
I show you now a letterhead with your signature, in which you are
described as the executive secretary, a little bit different title. And
this letter invites the recipients to participate in a conference, a festival
of nationalities and rally for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Please look at this letter now and see if you can't help the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities by verifying the authenticity of
your signature and title as executive secretary under date of October
3, 1953.
(Docmnent marked "Exhibit No. 369," see appendix, p. 7743.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question
for the grounds previously stated.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Abner Green?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to name any individuals in
this setting.
Mr. Arens. Is he a stool pigeon ?
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Arens. Is he an informer ?
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Arens. You know, do you not, that Abner Green, as executive
secretary of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, came before the Subversive Activities Control Board early this
year when the Subversive Activities Control Board was considering the
citation of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
and you know, do you not, that Abner Green testified before the Sub-
versive Activities Control Board that he knew you and knevr you as one
of the officers of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Was Comrade Abner Green being a stool pigeon or was he just
telling the truth when he said he knew you as an officer of the Midwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I object to the form of that question.
Counsel is asking for several pieces of information in the guise of one
question. If he wants to put one piece of information before me at
a time — I object to the form of the question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect an order and direction by the cliairman to the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his cotinsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question
because it is improper, it is immaterial, and, further, it violates my
rights under the first amendment of freedom of speech and association.
And I decline to answer, further, invoking the privilege of the
fifth amendment, in that I cannot be compelled to testify against
myself.
Mr. Arens. I want to see if you can't help the Committee on Un-
American Activities.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6557
You know Ave are trying to develop factual information with
reference to what the Connnunist conspiracy is doing to subvert the
legislative program of the (xovernment.
I have here a pamphlet, Inform or Else. It is a i)amphlet which
is written for the .lames Keller Defense Connnittee. According to the
body of the pamphlet, .lames Keller is on trial and on supervisory
parole because of his democratic sentiments. And he is being perse-
cuted under the McCarran-AValter Act.
Please look at this pam})hlet and tell the Committee on Un-
American Activities if it is not a fact that the .lames Keller Defense
Committee was created by the Midwest Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 370," see appendix, pp. 7744-
7755.)
(The Avitness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. Will you specify a date, please?
Mr. Arens. I think the witness can tell by looking at it.
Mr. Steinberg. I think you should specify a date.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, the witness will be responsive to the question,
I am sure.
Mr. Steinberg. I am sorry.
Mr. Caldwell. JMr. Chairman, this pamphlet that I have been asked
to look at does not contain any date when it was published.
I would like to ask the committee coimsel if he would be able to
supply a date.
Mr. xVrens. Well, perhaps w-e can get at it a little differentl3^
Do you know James Keller, the man wdio is the subject of the
pamphlet ^
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, as I stated before, I will decline to
identify individuals in this setting. Therefore, I decline to answer
that question, invoking my privileges under the first and fifth amend-
ments, and specifically refer to the privilege of not being able to be
compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the establishment of tlie James
Keller Defense Committee?
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, are you registered, or have you ever been regis-
tered, under the Federal Lobbying Act ?
Mr. Caldw^ell. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
invoking my privileges under the first and fifth amendments. I can-
not be compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I res})ectfully suggest the AvitneSvS be
ordered and directed to ansAver that quastion. It is a matter of public
record, and the witness knows it is.
Mr. Fii-vziER. You ai-e directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers Avith his counsel.)
Mr. Caldave:ll. I'm sorry.
Did the chairman address me Avhile I Avas consulting counsel?
Mr. Frazier. Yes. I directed you to ansAver the question.
Mr. Caldavell. I respectfully decline to ansAver the question, Mr.
Chairman, invoking my privileges under the first amendment, and
those same privileges under the fifth amendment, that I cannot be com-
pelled to testify against myself.
Mr. .Jackson. Mr. ChaiVman?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, Mr. Jackson.
6558 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Jackson. May I ask for an additional direction on the question ?
The Federal Lobbying Act is a perfectly legal act passed by the
Congress of the United States.
By the widest stretch of the imagination, compliance with the Fed-
eral law would not place in jeopardy any person who complied with
the provision of that law.
I am not satisfied with the answer of the witness to this question.
Therefore, I ask that he again be directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Steixbeeg. I wish to point out, by the same reasoning, that
noncompliance with the law may subject him to criminal prosecution.
Mr. Frazter. You underetand the rules.
You may advise your witness, but you are not permitted to make a
legal argument or any other kind of argument to the committee.
Mr. Jackson was merely endeavoring to clarify the situation for
your client.
Mr. Caldwell. Am I directed to answer ?
Mr. Frazier. And the position he places himself in.
Mr. Caldwell. Am I directed to answer that question ?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, you are directed to answer.
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, in-
voking my privileges under the first amendment, and invoking my
privileges under the fifth amendment of the Constitution, in that I
am not compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. I now invite your attention to an original bulletin of
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which it
states that the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
is campaigning to secure several thousand signatures and to get sev-
eral thousand post cards sent to the Senate and House Committees on
the Judiciary on immigration matters.
Please look at this bulletin and tell this committee whether or not
this gives a true and accurate and correct recitation of the facts to
your certain knowledge.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 371," see appendix, p. 7756.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. Could you repeat the last part of t lie question ?
(The record was read by the reporter.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question,
invoking my privileges under the first amendment, guaranteeing me
freedom of association and speech, and further invokmg my privilege
under the fifth amendment, in that I am not compelled to testify
against myself.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldweix. And on the further ground that it is irrelevant ; in
my opinion, is irrelevant to this inquiry.
IMr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to another
exhibit. It is a letterhead of the Midwest Conference To Kepeal the
Walter-McCarran Law and Defend the Kiglit of Foreign Born
Americans, This letterhead contains the officers, including an ad-
ministrative secretary, Nathan Caldwell, Jr.
Please look at this letterhead and tell this committee whether or not
you are accurately described.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6559
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 372," retained in committee files.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question on
the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. On May 18 did you attend a Bill of Eights Conference
called by the ^lidwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
held here in Chicago ?
(The witness confers wath his counsel.)
Mr. CALD^vELL. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answ^er that question,
invoking my privileges under the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. At this conference you made a little speech, didn't you,
in which you said, among other things :
It is the American people, native as well as foreign-bom, who are the victims
of the deportation hysteria and the developing police-state practice to which
people are subjected under the Smith and McCarran Acts.
Those two acts are not immigration acts. Those are the internal
security acts.
Did you make that speech ?
Mr. Caldweij:.. Well, I would like to
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead.
Mr. Caldwell. I would like to consult counsel if you don't mind.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead.
Mr. Cald'v/ell. What is the date that I am alleged to have made
this speech?
Mr. Arens. Well, do you have a recollection of making this little
speech on May 18, 1952, in which you were attacking the Smith Act
and McCarran Act, that is, the Internal Security Act, as developing
police-state practices ?
Mr. Caldwell. On advice of counsel
Mr. Arens. If you feel that way about it wh}^ don't you tell the
Committee on Un-American Activities about it, because this legisla-
tion came out of this committee.
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer the question, Mr. Chairman,
invoking my
Mr. Arens. We don't want you to feel restrained at all in telling
the committee your views on this legislation . You have told the world.
Now I thought perhai^s you might tell us.
Mr. Caldwell. Under this setting I am apprehensive of answering
that question, and invoke ray privilege under the first amendment,
freedom of speech and freedom of association. And I further invoke
my privileges under the fifth amendment, that I am not compelled to
testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. In December of 1952 were you chairman of the reso-
lutions committee, of a National Conference To Defend the Eights
of Foreign Born Americans held in Detroit at the Jewish Cultural
Center? Do you recall going to Detroit and being chairman of the
resolutions committee to defend the rights of foreign-born Americans?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. May I have a glass of water, please?
I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, invoking my
privileges under the first and fifth amendments, and 1 am not com-
pelled to testify against myself.
(5560 cojvimltstist political subversion
Mr. Arexs. Did 3-011 help set u]) the Midwest Conference To Repeal
the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans in April of 1953?
Mv. Caldwell. I decline to answer that qnestion, IVIr. Chairman.
]Mr. Arens. And you at that conference made a speech in which you
called upon all present to visit their Congressman during the then
Easter holiday and to penetrate all organizations, and to solicit all
groups to represent to the Congress that the people wanted the Walter-
McCarran Act repealed.
Did you do that ?
Mr. Caldw^ell. Would you repeat that ?
Mr. Arexs. Yes.
Just tell us what jon did at the conference, and we will see whether
or not my recitation of the facts, as reported here, are accurate.
Wliat did you do at this conference in 1953 besides this oration you
gave to defend the rights of foreign-born Americans? Just tell the
committee.
Mr. Caldw^ell. I decline to tell the committee under this setting
what I might have said at any particular time, invoking my priv-
ileges
JNIr. Arens. Do you recall distributing-
Mr. Caldwell. Just a minute. I haven't finished.
Mr. Arexs. I am sorry.
Mr. Caldwell. I am invoking my privileges under the first amend-
ment, freedom of speech, and further invoking my privilege under
the fifth amendment — I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arexs. Did you distribute to all the delegates a list of the
Members of Congress, the Representatives and Senators from the
various States ? Do you recall doing that ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question under the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. Now we display to you a reproduction of page 3 of the
Lam]) of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
with reference to certain activities of the INIidwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. It alludes here particularly to a con-
ference in which 375 people participated in Chicago. It lists the
number of delegates who were here, all in behalf of the constitutional
human rights of foreign-born.
It a]>pears fr-om this document that you were then executive secre-
tary of the organization and of the conference.
Please look at this document and see if you can't verify the
authenticity of it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 373," see appendix, p. 7757.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question
on the grounds that it is immaterial, invoking my privileges under the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now back in December of 1953 were you one of the
leading lights of the National Conference to Repeal the Walter-
McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims, held here in Chicago? We
have a reproduction of the proceedings there, in which you are listed
as executive secretary of the Midwest Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, and one of the conference leaders and speakers.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6561
Please look at that dociiinent and see if that might refresh your
recollection to such an extent that you might be able to help the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caluweix. I am sorry. What is the question that you specif-
ically want me to answer?
Mr. Arens. I just want you to tell this committee whether or not you
are accurately identified there as executive secretar}' of the Midwest
Committee and one of the sjoeakers at this JMidwest conference. It is
on page 2 there.
(See exhibit V, appendix, p. 8343.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. C^VLDWELi,. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question,
invoking my privileges mider the first amendment, in that the ques-
tion abridges my rights of freedom of association and freedom of
speech, and, since this is a printed docmnent, it violates those rights
of freedom of the press. And I further decline to answer the question,
invoking my privileges under the fifth amendment of the same
Constitution.
Mr. Akens. "We have a reproduction of an open letter to the
Judiciary Conunittees of the United States Senate and House of
Representatives, bearing the signatures of a number of people, assur-
ing the committees of the aroused public sentiment which exists in tliis
country in opposition to the WaIter-]McCarran Act, signed by a great
number of people, all emanating from this national conference.
Please look at tliis letter and see if you recall being one of the
participants in procuring the signatures to enlighten the Members of
the Congress with reference to the aroused public opinion at the
crossroads of this Nation.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Steinberg. Is his name on here?
Mr. Caldwell. Is my name on here? Do you want to laiow if my
name is on here ?
Mr. Arens. I want to see if you remember participating in the
preparation of that letter which was sent to the various conmiittees.
If you don't recall, just say you don't recall.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a reason ?
Mr. Caldwell. Yes, I have several reasons, some very good ones,
in that it abridges my rights under tlie fifth amendment "a ml the first
amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Now we invite your attention to just two more pro-
ceedings.
First is tlie summary of proceedings of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born in New York City in 1954, a National
Confei-ence to Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans.
According to the summary of these pioceediugs. Nathan Caldwell
Jr., of Chicago, was chairman of the resolutions connnittee of this
conference.
Please look at this summai-y of the proceedings and see if (hat might
refresh your recollection with reference to your participation in that
conference and your chairmanship of the resolutions committee of
that organization.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, p. 8372.)
6562 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Caldwell. In other words, the specific question is whether or
not I did
Mr. Arens. Yes ; that is right.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. In this setting, Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer
that question.
I am apprehensive of the question. And I further decline, invoking
my privileges under the first amendment which guarantees me freedom
of association and freedom of speech. And, since that is a printed
document, it abridges my rights of freedom of the press. And I
further invoke my privileges under the fifth amendment, in that I
cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. You weren't unemployed in April of 1955; were you?
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question in this setting,
Mr. Chairman. I am apprehensive of it, and Invoke my privileges
under both the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. We have the summary of proceedings of April 30, 1955,
of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which
a big conference was held, according to the summary of proceedings,
here in Chicago. And we have here a letter signed by the executive
secretary of this conference, a man by the name of Nathan Caldwell, Jr.
Just look at these proceedings and this letter and this signature and
see if you can't help this committee of the Congress by verifying the
authenticity of that document,
(Documents marked "Exhibits STla-c," see appendix, pp. 7T58-
7765.) . _
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question,
invoking my privileges under the first amendment guaranteeing me
freedom of association and speech, and further invoking my privileges
under the fifth amendment, in that I cannot be compelled to testify
against myself.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room
at this point. )
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that, in the pres-
ence of this witness, another Avitness be sworn.
Mr. Czarnowski, would you kindly come forward.
(Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Velde, and
Jackson. )
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be given at this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Czarnowski. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ANZELM A. CZARNOWSKI
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Czarnowski. Anzlem, A-n-z-e-1-m, A. Czarnowski, C-z-a-r-
n-o-w-s-k-i.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Czarnowski, I expect a little later on to interrogate
you at length with reference to a number of matters.
For the present^ I should like to ask you just a very few questions.
Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6563
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. From 1944 up to January 1955.
Mr. Arens. And in what area did you serve in the Communist
Party?
Mr. Cz^utNOwsKi, From 1944 to 1955.
Mr. Arens. I say in what area. In what State or what community ?
Mr. CzAuNOwsKi. In the Argo-Summit community, an industrial
branch of the Electromotive Division of the General Motors. Corp.
Mr. Arens. In what State, please, sir ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. In La Grange, 111.
^Ir. Arens. During all the time that you were a member of the
Communist Party were you serving at the behest of the Federal Bu-
reau of Investigation?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever idealogically identified with the Commu-
nist Party ? Were you ever in sympathy with the Communist Party ?
Mr. CzARNowsia. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were at all times just serving your Government. Is
that correct ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir ; and protecting my home.
Mr. Arens. I understand.
In view of the tittering in the back of the room^, I should just like
to ask you one question now before we proceed v. itli the original ques-
tion. Have you, in the course of the last 24 to 48 hours, received a
threat with respect to your appearance here today ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And do you have some evidence of that threat with you
today ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly allude to it and display it now to
the committee.
Mr. Czarnowski. I received it yesterday [handing document to
conmiittee counsel] .
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 375," see appendix, p. 7766.)
Mr. Arens. You have just handed me, Mr. Czarnowski, an envelope
on the inside of which the letters "r-a-t" appear, is that correct ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And in the envelope there is a picture of a person who
has been shot down in Plungaiy. Is that correct ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And tlie person wlio sent this letter circled the word
"informers."
Most members of the AVH and their informers were shot immediately when
found.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Correct.
Mr. Arens. This was sent where? To your home?
Mr. Czarnowski, The address of my home ; yes, sir.
6564 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You regard this service to your Government as an
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation a rather
serious business ; do you not, Mr. Czarnowski ''i
Mr. CzARNOwSKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you regard the service of this committee to the
American people as rather serious business; do you not?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your service in the Communist
Party did you know a person by the name of Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr. ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr., as a Com-
munist ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did Nathan E. Caldwell, Jr., identify himself to you
as a Communist?
Mr. Czarnowski. In so many words.
Mr. Arens. In a conversation with you?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you see in the hearing room today the person whom
vou knew as a Communist while you were an undercover agent in the
Comnumist conspiracy at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation ?
Mr, Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. "Would you point out to the committee the person whom
you knew as a Communist?
Mr. Czarnowski. It is this young man here [indicating].
Mr. Arens. Just have a seat.
TESTIMONY OF NATHAN E. CALDWELL, JR.— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Caldwell, do you know a person, or have you ever
known a ])erson by the name of Anzelm A. Czarnowski ?
(Mr. Caldwell confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Czarnowski. Can I interrupt?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Czarnowski. He wouldn't know me as Anzelm Czarnowski.
I went under the party name of Steve Czerwin.
Mr. Arens. Steve what ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Czerwin, C-z-e-r-w-i-n.
Mr. Arens. C-z-e-r
Mr. Czarnowski. w-i-n.
Mr. Arens. Then let us change this last question, and we will re-
phrase it.
(The witness Caldwell confers with his counsel.)
JNIr. Arens. Mr. Caldwell
Mr. Caldwell. Just a minute.
Mr. Arens. The first name was Steve, you say ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Steve; yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. (Caldwell, do you know the man wlio just testified
here seated to your left?
Mr. Caldwell. Under ordinary circumstances I would answer
that question. I would like to auswer it if you will guarantee my
counsel the right to cross-examine this witness.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6565
Mr. Akexs. Your counsel knows and lie has informed you, I am
sure, of the rules of this connnittee. Counsers sole and exclusive
l)rero<rative is to advise his client with reference to his constitutional
rights.
AnsAver that question.
Mr. Caldwell. May I ask a rulino;?
Mr. Arexs. Answer that question whether or not you know the
man who just testified.
Mr. Caldw^ell. I decline to answer that question, invoking my
privilege under the first amendment, freedom of speech, associa-
tion
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Caldw^ell. And invoking my privileges under the fifth amend-
ment; I cannot be compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. This man under oath" just now said he knew you as a
Communist, a member of a conspiratorial apparatus designed to over-
throw this Government by force and violence.
That is a pretty serious thing to say about a man.
You just tell this committee while you are under oath did Mr.
Czarnowski lie or did he tell the truth ?
(The w'itness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caldwell. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
invoking my privileges under the fifth and first amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
And I should then like to request Mr. Czarnowski to move over
to the principal witness chair so we can proceed with further interro-
gation of him.
Mr. Frazier. Wait a minute.
Are there any questions ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Czarnowski, will you kindly move over to the prin-
cipal witness seat.
TESTIMONY OF ANZELM A. CZARNOWSKI— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Czarnowski, will you please keep your voice up as
you testify so that tlie committee can hear your testimony?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now tell tlie committee, first of all, the date and place
of your birth.
Mr. Czarnowski. I was born in Poland, in Lebno, L-e-b-n-o, on
August 12, 1896.
Mr. Arens. AVhen did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Czarnowski. In 1913.
Mr. Arens. And were you admitted for permanent residence?
Mr. Czarnowski, Yes, sir,
Mr. Arens. And are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. CzARNow^SKi. Yes, sir.
I became a citizen tln-ougli an act of Congress while serving in the
United States Army,
85333— 57— pt. 1 28
6566 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Czarnowski, would you kindly detail the
circumstances of your membership in the Communist Party, and, so
that the record at this point reflects the dates, repeat the date which
you gave a few moments ago.
Mr. Czarnowski. How I got into the service ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Just very briefly how you became a Communist,
and the period of your service, and then we will get into further details
in a moment.
Mr. Czarnowski. I have reported to the FBI certain Nazi activi-
ties in the Electromotive Division, which was a defense plant.
Recognizing my interest in the security of this country, they have
asked me whether I would join the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. That was in what year, please, sir ?
Mr. Czarnowski. In 1943.
Mr. Arens. And you served in the Communist Party. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you served until 1955. Is that correct?
Mr. Czarnowski. Correct.
Mr. Arens. And during all that time you were in constant com-
munication or periodic communication, I should say, with representa-
tives of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Is that correct?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Czarnowski, tell us next the various units of
the Communist Party to which you were assigned during your service
in the party.
Mr. Czarnowski. I was assigned to the Midwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, and the Chopin Cultural Club.
C-h-o-p-i-n.
Mr. Arens. Were you also at one time assigned to an industrial sec-
tion of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes.
That is the industrial section of the Electromotive Division of the
General Motors Corp. in La Grange, 111.
Mr. Arens. Let us, if you please, sir, take each of these sections one
by one. Let us direct our attention exclusively, for the next few
minutes, to the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Could you now tell the Committee on Un-American Activities the
names of persons in the Midwest Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign
Born w^io, to 3'our certain knowledge, were members of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Well, I have prepared a list. Mav I read it off?
Mr. Arens. Is it prepared in your own handwriting ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir ; please do.
Allude, first of all now, to the Midwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born.
And may I say, for the purpose of clarity here, if there is a name that
is a little difficult to catch, kindly spell the name.
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. INIr. Chairman and Mr. Counsel— — •
Mr. Frazier. Yes, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. I assume that there are certain criteria for the de-
termination which he is going to make on this list of names. And,
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6567
rather than state how he knows on every name, it would be understood,
as we have at some times past, that the identifications are based upon
attendance at closed meetings of the Communist Party, evidence in the
form of membership cards, collection of dues, and such things as that,
so that we will be absolutely certain that all of the people who are
named were members of the party, based upon those criteria?
Mr. Arens. You understand what the Congressman just said, Mr.
Czarnowski ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Will the name of each person whom you now will allude
to or call off in the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born bo a person who, to your certain knowledge, on the basis of
experience, membership in closed meetings and the like, be a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now kindly proceed to tell the Committee on Un-
American Activities the names of people in the Midwest Conunittee
for Protection of Foreign Born who, to your certain knowledge, were
Communists.
Mr. Czarnowski. Herbert March.
Mr. Arens. How do you spell that last name ?
Mr. Czarnowski. M-a-r-c-h.
Mr. Arens. Just a moment.
May I ask you, as you give each name, if you could give us just
a word of identification.
Herbert March. Is he a plumber or electrician or what is he?
Where does he work and so forth ?
Mr. Czarnowski. In the packing union, official of the packing union.
Mr. Arens. Where ?
Mr. Czarnowski. At a packinghouse.
He was a delegate to the 1947 and, I believe, 1948 Communist Party
district convention. He attended several functionary meetings. Com-
munist Party functionary meetings.
Selena Palka.
Mr. Arens. How do you spell Selena?
Mr. Czarnowski. S-e-1-e-n-a.
Mr. Arens. What is that last name ?
Mr. Czarnowski. P-a-1-k-a.
Mr. Arens. And give us a word about her.
Mr. Czarnowski. She is from the Polish group, and attended sev-
eral Communist Party functionary meetings that I have
Incidentally, I have attended. I have these only from those
meetings that I have attended.
Mr. Arens. You have informally told the staff the names of other
people who Avere identified to you as Communists. But we have
asked you not to use their names in this proceeding, have we not?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. We have asked you in this proceeding to name only
people who, to your certain knowledge, on the basis of your personal
experience, were known by you to be members of the conspiracy.
Isn't that correct ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Correct.
6568 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You also have told us informally the names of a num-
ber of people -who, by other comrades, were identified to you. Isn't
that correct?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now proceed.
Mr. CzARXowsKi. Walter Palka attended se^-eral functionary meet-
ings, and was a delegate to the 1947 Communist Party convention^
State convention.
Gazimir Siuba.
Mr. Arens. Now I think
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. C-a-z-i-m-i-r S-i-u-b-a. Delegate to the Commu-
nist Party State convention or district convention in 1947.
Mr. Arens. Do you know where he is now or what he does ?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. He is a barber.
Mr. Arens. He is a bartender ?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. A barber.
Mr. Arens. A barber ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes.
Vicki Starr.
Mr. Arens. You had better give us that name.
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. S-t-a-r-r.
Mr. Arens. Is the first name Vicki ?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Vicki. V-i-c-k-i.
Mr. Arens. A man or or a woman ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. I suppose for Victoria. A woman. She is the
wife of Edward Starr. And she was a delegate to the 1947 and 1948
convention. Communist Party district convention. And also attended
several functionary meetings.
James Keller. That is the man that the Midwest Committee is
protecting from deportation. He was a Communist Party function-
ary, delegate to the 1947 and 1948 Communist Party district con-
vention.
Mr. Arens. He is the subject of this one little committee we talked
about earlier today, the Committee to Defend James Keller, or the
James Keller Defense Committee ?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Correct.
Mr. Arens. And you identify liim as a Communist. Is that cor-
rect?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please, sir.
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Harry Sobel.
Mr. Arens. You had better give us the spelling on that, please, sir.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. S-o-b-e-1, or b-o-1, or b-a-1. I doirt know which.
Attended Communist Partv functionary meetings.
Tillie Carle. T-i-1-l-i-e C-a-r-1-e.
Mr. Arens. Was she also known as Tillie Carle Sogers? She was
a witness liere yesterday.
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Joe Poskonka, P-o-s-k-o-n-k-a, employed at a
packinghouse, and also belongs to the packing union. He was a dele-
gate to the 1947 and 1948 district convention. Communist Party dis-
trict convention. Also attended several of the Communist Party
functionary meetings.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6569
Mr, Arens. Would you hesitate just a moment, please ?
This Harvy Sobel. Was he also president of a subsidiary organ-
ization of the ]Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
known as the Jewish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi, Yes. He had something to do with the Jewish
committee. I don't know what office he held.
Mr. Arens. Of course, it was not in any sense a religious organiza-
tion, was it ?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. It was an organization of Communists, was it not ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. It was an organization of the Jewish group of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Xow proceed, if you please, sir.
Mr. CzARNOWsKi. That is all as far as the Midwest Committee is
concerned.
Mr. Arens. On the basis of your experience as a functionary of the
Communist Party underground at the behest of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation, of course
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Are you in a position to tell the Committee on Un-
American Activities whether or not the Midwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreig-n Born was an interlocking entity with the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. Are you in a position to tell the Committe on Un-
American Activities whether or not the Midwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born was controlled, lock, stock, and barrel, by the
Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Czarnowski. From all the activities that I took part in, I find
that it was all one organization controlled by the Amer'can Committee.
Mr. Arens. Bv the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born ?
Mr. Czarnowski. For the Protection of Foreign Born.
]\Ir. Arens. ^^Hiich, in turn, has been cited repeatedly as a Commu-
nist-controlled organization ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Czai-nowski, you stated in your opening observa-
tions a few moments ago that you were not only identified in Com-
munist Party activities with the INTidwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, but also with other entities of the Communist
Partv. You said the Chopin Club and an industrial organization of
the Communist Party.
Let us now take I of the 2 and have you, if you please, sir, tell this
committee who in each of these organizations was known by you, to
a certainty, to be a member of the Communist conspiracy.
Perhaps we should take the Argo Club fii'st.
Mr. Czarnowski. Before Ave go further
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Czarnowski. May I remind the chairman or the counsel that I
haven't mentioned Nathan Calrlwell.
Mr. Arens. T didn't understand you.
Mr. Czarnowski. I have not mentioned Nathan Caldwell when I
read off these names.
6570 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Now I would like to tell the congressional committee the circum-
stances, how I know that he is a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. You proceed and do so.
Mr. CzAKNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
I invited him for a cup of coffee downstairs at the office. I think it
is 432 South Dearborn. Or 31. I don't remember.
And over there at that time Hilliard Ellis quit or resigned from
the Communist Party.
I always wanted to find out wliether or not he is a member of the
Communist Party. So I said Hilliard Ellis, being a very active
member, I don't think it was right for him to quit because we needed
leadership.
So he said that the Communists, that Hilliard Ellis has quit the
party because, according to the party, the party permits labor lead-
ers to quit the party on account oi the Taft-Hartley law so they would
be
Mr. Arens. They just resign technical membership in the Com-
munist Party, but maintain their affiliation and allegiance to the
party ; is that correct ?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. Yes. That was the essence of the conversation.
Now the question is here, if he is not a member of the Communist
Party, how does he know that, because only Communists know what
the party is trying to do ?
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend any other meetings or any other
sessions with Caldwell ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Only Midwest Committee meetings.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend a meeting with Caldwell in the
home of Blanche Born ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Was that a Communist Party meeting ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. I would like to start from the beginning. That
is, I told Caldwell that we cannot get all the money from our party
members because, after all, we haven't got enough, and they have
such other expenses as the workers' drive, the defense for the Com-
munist Party leaders, and others.
So we tried to establish a defense committee, Southwest Defense
Committee. But I don't know how to go about it.
So he suggested, he said he would talk to Blanche.
Mr. Arens. And who is Blanche ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Well, later I found, after he had talked to
Blanche — that was Blanche Born, member of the Communist Party.
Mr, Arens. How do you spell that last name ?
Mr. Czarnowski. B-o-r-n.
And so he arranged a meeting at her home.
Now, present at this meeting were Nate Caldwell, Blanche Born,
a Communist, myself a Communist, Gobel Hubbard, a Communist
Mr. Arens. How do you spell that last name ?
Mr. Czarnowski. G-o-b-e-1, first name; H-u-b-b-a-r-d. I am not
sure whether John Wright was there, too, or not.
Mr. Arens. Was John Wright a Communist ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How did you know Hubbard was a Communist ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Hubbard was the secretary of the Argo branch
I <) which I belonged.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6571
Mr. Arens. All right, sir.
Now could you direct your attention to one of the other units of
the Communist Party in which you were active, to which you were
assigned by the party? You have told us about the Midwest Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. Now let us consider another
unit.
Were you assigned by the Communist Party to an industrial unit
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Being employed at the Electromotive, I was,
that way, assigned to that unit there. But at that time it was just
party members getting together until the concentration of indus-
tries was established.
Now in the meanwliile, from 1944 to, I believe, 1950 — I am not sure.
Or 1949, there. I attended both meetings.
Mr. Arens. You attended both
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. The Argo branch meeting and the industrial
branch meeting.
Mr. Arens. And then did the industrial branch organisational imit
succeed the Argo branch unit ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Well, then they had a concentration of indus-
tries, and they told me that I should concentrate all my efforts,
my work, in the industrial branch and quit the Argo branch.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, first of all, people who, to your certain knowl-
edge, were Communists in the Argo branch.
Mr. CzAKNOv/SKi. There is Gobel Hubbard, H-u-b-b-a-r-d
Mr. Arens. And a word about him, please. Where does he work?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. He is secretary of the branch ; employed at Con-
tinental Can Co.
Mr. Arens. Is he there now ? Do you know? At Continental Can
Co.?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. I don't know.
Andy Plesko.
Mr. Arens. Give that name again, please.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. P-1-e-s-k-o. Employed at the Corn Products
Refining Co.
These are all members of the Argo branch of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. What post did you occupy in the Argo branch ? Do you
recall ?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. Well, I haven't occupied any particular post with
the exception — pardon me.
With the exception of being a representative to the Midwest Com-
mittee.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir. Now proceed.
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. And Myron Blish.
Mr. Arens. How do you spell that last name ?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. B-1-i-s-h.
Mr. Arens. Wliere does he work?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. At the Corn Products Refining Co. He attended
the Lincoln School in 1946, which is the Communist school.
Florence Gowgiel attended the Workers School in 1949.
G-o-w-g-i-e-1.
Mr. Arens. She was head of a Save Our Sons Committee; wasn't
she?
6572 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. She was the organizer of the Save Our Sons, and
a member of the American Peace Crusade.
Mr. Arens. Do you have another name ?
Mr. CzAExoAVSKi. Ed Easter, employed at Corn Products Refining
Co. E-a-s-t-e-r.
Anthony Janchenko.
Mr. Arp:ns. Spell the last name.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. J-a-n-c-h-e-n-k-o.
Mr. Arens. And a word of identification about Mr. Janchenko?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. He is retired.
Mr. Jackson. From business or the Connnunist Party?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Well, I don't know. Maybe both by now.
Mr. Jackson. Did you mean that he had left the party ^
Mr. CzARNowsKi. Sir?
Mr. Jackson. Did you mean that he had left the party ?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. 1 am not sure whether he did or not. The mem-
bers of the party said he did, but you know
Mr. Arens. You mean he is retired from gainful employment?
Mr. Czarnowski. From gainful employment ; yes, sir.
John Koshel, K-o-s-h-e-1.
Arlin Pribatek, A-r-1-i-n P-r-i-b-a-t-e-k, employed at Corn Products
Kefining Co.
Mary Phillips Buckner.
Mr. Arens. Spell that Buckner.
Mr. Czarnowski. Buckner, B-u-c-k-n-e-r. She was also a member
of the SOS, Save Our Sons.
Roy Petty. R-o-y Petty, P-e-t-t-y. He is doing odd jobs in Argo.
Beatrice Johns, J-o-h-n-s.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Czarnowski, what type of jobs did these people
that you are identifying hold at Corn Products Refining Co.?
Mr. Czarnow^ski. Corn Products Refining Co. is manufacturing
that Argo starch, linit, and Karo syrup. And, of course, ^Ir. Con-
gressman, they are on different jobs
Mr. Velde. Were any of these that you are identifying now at Corn
Products white collar workers or were they
Mr. Czarnowski. No except one — Myron Biish. He is a chemist
at the Corn Products Refining Co.
Jam.es McDonald, employed at the Corn Products Refining Co.
Frank Kaeser, K-a-e-s-e-r, employed at Page Engineering, McCook.
John Mudrak, M-u-d-r-a-k, employed at the Felt Factory in Mc-
Cook.
Leon Petty, P-e-t-t-y.
Arthur Petty, P-e-t-t-y.
Ernest Petty, P-e-t-t-y, employed at the Corn Products Refijiing Co.
And Luther Vaughn.
Mr. Arens. Spell the last name, please, sir.
Mr. Czarnowski. V-a-u-g-h-n.
Mr. Arens. Where is he employed or where was lie employed?
Mr. Czarnowski. I don't know wliere he is employed.
These names, the names I have given — I mean these people have
attended meetings vdth me.
]Mr. Arens. And you identify those now as persons who, to your
certain knowledge, were members of the Communist Party. Is that
correct ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6573
Mr. OzAKXowsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens, Now do you have-
Mr. CzAKNOwsKi. Pardon me.
Mr. Arens. Excuse me.
Mr. CzARNowsKi. I have additional names here of functionaries
■who have attended the Argo branch.
Mr. Arens. They are known by you to be Communists. Is that
correct ?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. They are Communist functionaries.
Mr. Arens. Communist functionaries who attended the Argo
branch ?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. No. Who directed the Argo branch. I mean
they are paid functionaries of the Communist
Mr. Arens. Full-time functionaries?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let's have their names, please, sir.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. James Keller, the man that is on the deportation
list.
Katherine Drew.
Mr, Arens. Spell the last name.
Mr. CzARNowsKi. D-r-e-w.
Mr. Arens. Is the Katherine spelled with a K or a C ? Or do you
know?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. I don't know.
Dick Criley, C-r-i-1-e-y.
Mr. Arens. Could you identify him a little bit further ? He was a
paid functionary of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. He was a party functionary. I understand he
was imported from California.
Mr. Arens. He is one of the authors for the Communist conspiracy ;
is he not ? He wi-ites books for them — or pamphlets ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes ; I believe he does.
Mr. Arens. Now, do you have another name?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Bernard Persilej^
Mr. Arens. Spell that, please, sir.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. P-e-r-s-i-1-e-y.
Mr. Arens. And could you give us a word of identification about
Mr. Persiley ?
Mr. CzARNOwSKi. Mr. Persiley is also a Communist functionary.
He was a delegate to both conventions that I have attended. And
many of the Communist Party functionary meetings.
Mr. Arens. May I invite your attention to another entity of the
Communist opei-ation to wliich you were assigned, the Industrial Chib.
You have told us about the Argo club. Now tell us about the In-
dustrial Club, and tell us the names of people who, to your certain
knowledge, were members of the Communist Industrial Club as Com-
munists.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Mr. Arens, while I am on the Argo branch can
I mention about the activities tliat they have been engaged in out in
my community there?
Mr. Arens. Please do. Yes, sir.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this
point.)
6574 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. The Communist Party have conspired or have
planned a conspiracy against our school system. They have suc-
ceeded in Argo in stopping the State funds of our schools for 1 year.
It was originated in the Argo branch by Florence Gowgiel.
Mr. Arens. Let's get the last name, please, again.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. G-o-w-g-i-e-1. And Beatrice Johns, and the other
fellow travelers.
At the one meeting I was told to attend because, as I mentioned, I
was then a member of the industrial branch — But this was in 1949, I
believe, when I attended this meeting. It was started with the play-
ing of the Communist Third Internationale. There were four people
present at that meeting.
]Mr. Velde. "VNTien was this meeting ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Sir ?
Mr. Velde. When was "this meeting you are talking about ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. This was in Argo.
JSIr. Arens. The Congressman asked you when, please, sir.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Around 1949.
Mr. Arens. And who were the four members of the Communist In-
ternational who were there ? Do you recall ?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. No. Of the Communist Party, the Communist
branch.
It was Florence Gowgiel, myself, Beatrice Johns, and Roy Petty,
I believe. Yes, Roy Petty.
It started with the playing of the Communist Third Internationale
on the gramophone record.
And then Florence made a report on the schools. And she said
that she has discussed the situation, the school situation, with a school
board member by the name of Frank Foran, F-o-r-a-n, and with the
Communist Party leadership.
And then the strategy of the activities were discussed. They have
charged the school board system that segregation in our community
exists, which wfi.s not a fact. The have gotten some petitions. And
I have photostatic copies of the petitions if you want to see them.
And then they have attended meetings, school board meetings, and
heckled and disturbed them. It made it quite impossible for that
school board to function.
After the State stopped the funds pending a hearing, they have
called on the Civil Rights Congress and other Communist-front or-
ganizations, and since Negro segregation was charged, they also so-
licited the aid of the National Association for the Advancement of
Colored People, which was represented by Attorney Clark.
Attorney Clark, when he attended this hearing, he gave just one look
at the whole situation, and he said that this was nothing but a Com-
munist conspiracy, and he wishes to withdraw his organization from
this hearing.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. CzARNOAvsKi. And he didn't want to have anything to do with it.
So the school board was then refunded funds.
That was the activity of the Argo branch.
Mr. Arens. Now may I invite your attention to the Industrial Club
of the Communist Party.
Tell us, first of all, where this Industrial Club was. "Wliere was it?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6575
Mr. CzARNowsKi. It was — the Industrial Club usually met at 4400
Lawndale, Lyons, 111. But it also met, like any other club, in different
homes.
Mr. Arens. Name at the present time, if you please, sir, those who,
to your certain knowledge, were members of the Industrial Club of
the Communist Party.
I\Ir. CzARNOwsKi. Charles Wilson.
Mr. Arens. So this record is absolutely clear, each of the persons
whom you are about to name are persons who, to your certain knowl-
edge, were Communists. Is that correct ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir ; these are all members of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. Xow kindly proceed and give us, if you would, please,
just a word of identification about each one, if you happen to recall it.
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Charles Wilson, employed at the electromotive division, secretary
of the
Mr. Arens. He is employed at the electromotive division?
Mr. Czarnowski. Of the General Motors Corp.
Mr. Arens. And that is a plant here in this area, I take it?
Mr. Czarnowski. In La Grange, 111.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, please, sir.
Mr. Czarnowski. Secretary of the Karl Lieber section, delegate
to the 1947-^8 Communist Party district convention. Delegate to
several functionary meetings and front organizations.
Ed Klinger.
Mr. Arens. You had better spell that for us, please, sir.
Mr. Czarnowski. K-1-i-n-g-e-r.
Mr. Arens. And his first name was Ed ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Ed.
Delegate to section conventions, and attended functionary meetings.
Held offices in the branch and section. Employed at the electromotive
division.
Mr. Arens. Of General Motors ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Of General Motors.
Now this man, if there weren't any ladies present I would like to
tell, because the Communists claim that they are loyal Americans.
I would like to, but I see I can't — there are ladies present — say
what he mentioned, referring to the American flag.
Mr. Arens. Well, was it in terms of vile epithets? Did he use vila
language?
Mr. Czarnowski. Vile language, yes.
Mr. Arens. Obscene language?
Mr. Czarnowski. Obscene language.
Mr. Arens. Witli reference to the American flag ?
Mr. Czarnowski. It was just disgusting language.
Mr. Arens. We wouldn't want you to repeat it on this record.
Mr. Czarnowski. Saul Blackman, educational director
Mr. Arens. Wait just a minute.
Wliat was the gentleman's name? The man's name?
Mr. Czarnowski. Saul, S-a-u-1.
Mr. Arens. And his last name?
6576 COMMUNItST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Blackmail, B-1-a-c-k-m-a-n.
]\Ir. Velde. Mr. Czarnowski, were any of these technicians that you
are now identifyin<^ in ofhco work of any kind, or were tliey all
laborers? AVould you so indicate if they were technicians?
Mr. Czarnowski. Mostly production men, yes; technicians, pro-
duction men workingr on machines.
Mr. Arens. Why would the Communist Party try to concentrate
in industrial plants?
Mr. Czarnowski. Well, I would like to tell that after I get through
with the names.
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead, and then we will interrogate you on
that, if you please, sir.
Mr. Czarnowski. He is not working at the electromotive plant
anv more, this Blackmail.
Gill Podolner.
Mr. Arens. Spell that.
Mr. Czarnowski. P-o-d-o-l-n-e-r.
Mr. AiUENS. His first name is Gill ?
JNIr. Czarnowski. Gill. G-i-1-1.
Delegate to section convention, 1950; educational director. 1951;
employed at the electromotive division of General Motors in La
Grange.
Charles Heintz Schroetter.
H-e-i-n-t-z. Scliroetter, S-c-h-r-o-e-t-t-e-r.
Employed at the electromotive division, La Grange.
Kobert Turner, delegate to section convention —
Turner, T-ii-r-n-e-r.
The section convention, 1950. Employed at the electromotive di-
vision of General Motors Corp.
One item on this particular person. I have something else to say
now since that wonderful giggling was going on back there. I would
like to have them laugh this on, too.
When the United States was involved in the war with Korea, and
William Z. Foster put out a letter, this letter was discussed in the
branches, that the Communist Party will not aid the United States
in case of war with the Soviet LTnion.
During the discussion this man Turner said the following:
"The Soviet Union is a workers' state. And if any worker — " and
I was a worker, and I am still a worker " — if any worker in this
country takes up arms against the Soviet Union lie should be de-
clared a traitor and be liquidated."
]\Ir. Akens. Let's just be sure.
Who said that now ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Robert Turner, T-u-r-n-e-r.
Mr. Arens. And he is or was, in your experience, employed where?
Mr. Czarnowski. He is employed at the electromotive division.
]\Ir. Arens. He is there now ?
Mv. Czarnowski. I believe; yes.
Mr. Arens. And in what capacity is lie employed there? Do you
knoAv ?
Mr. Czarnowski. I couldn't tell von.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6577
Mr. Arens. Do you have another name, please, sir?
Mr. CzARNOWSKi. I have not been employed at the Electromotive
since 1951.
Al George, G-e-o-r-g-e.
Mr. Arens. What is the first name ? Al ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Al, for Alfred or Albert. It is Alfred, I believe.
Delegate to the Commmiist Party State convention, 1947. Formerly
employed at the electromotive division of the General Motors Corp.
in La Grange ; formerly employed.
Ed llirning, Il-i-r-n-i-n-g, formerly employed at the Electromotive,
and now in California. He attended several section meetings.
Karl Ijeirich, L-e-i-r-i-c-h, formerly employed at the Electromotive.
He was delegate to the Commnnist Party district convention in 1948.
Lonis Amacker, employed at the Electromotive division in La
Grange. A-m-a-c-k-e-r.
The next man is Terry Kandall, T-e-r-r-y
Mr. Arens. His last name. Spell it, please, sir.
Mr. CzARxoAvsKi. Kandall, K-a-n-d-a-1-1.
Delegate to the Communist Party State convention m 1948. Em-
ployed in I^\ Grange, in the Electromotive division.
I^uis Llorca, L-1-o-r-c-a : employed Electromotive division.
Edmmid Marczewski, M-a-r-c-z-e-w-s-k-i: employed at the Electro-
motive division.
By the way, Marczewski belongs to tlie southwest section, not the
Argo branch. The southwest section.
Mr. Arens. Of the Communist Party?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Of the Communist Party.
Sam Okal, delegate to the
Mr. Arens. Excuse me. You had better spell that name.
Mr. Czarnowski. 0-k-a-l. Pardon me.
Delegate to the Labor Conference of Peace. Employed at the Elec-
tromotive division.
Marion Polich, P-o-l-i-c-h; employed at the Electromotive division.
Mary Polich, the wife, houscAvife.
John Polich, P-o-l-i-c-h; employed at Page engineering plant in
Lyons or ]McCook, I meant to say.
Morris Pratt, formerly employed
Mr. Arens. You had better spell that.
Mr. Czarnowski. P-r-a-t-t.
Mr. Arens. How does he spell Morris ? Do you know ?
^^r. Czarnowski. ]S[-o-r-r-i-s.
Formerly em})loyed at the Electromotive division, General Motors.
Al TJubio, member of the district
Mr. Arens. Excuse me. You had better spell that.
Mi-. Czarnowski. Pardon me. R-u-b-i-o.
Member of the district executive board, I believe. State veterans
and youth director, organizational director of the Cacchione Pranch.
State literature director and delegate to the section auil district con-
ventions of 1947 and 1948. He was employed at the Electromotive
division of (leneral Motors (^orp.
Fred
Pardon me. Before I go further. I have got another thing con-
cerning this man to make, if I am permitted.
Mr. Arens. Surelv. Go ri<rht ahead.
6578 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CzARXowsKi. I was told that they will have a meeting in my
home. When the coast was clear, to, when they had the meeting in
my home, I cleaned up, and, among the material that I have found and
didn't want them to see, I found a case of rifles which were the prop-
erty of the Argo Summit Post, 735 of the American Legion, of which
I am a member. So I lust left them out.
When these members of the quisling organization, the Communist
Party, came in and we were ready to start the meeting, I said to them,
"Comrades, I don't know how you feel about the present situation, but,
as far as I am concerned, I am ready for the revolution now."
And I showed them these rifles.
So, for a little while they all had kind of fun with these rifles, how
they would line up the people and how they would shoot them and all
this.
Mr. Arens. How many rifles Avere there ?
Mr. CzARNOW^sKi. There were a dozen rifles, but only one was
cleaned. So that they handled that one rifle.
Ed Klinger, by the way, said
No. He said that at some other meeting. He was not at this
meeting, I don't believe. But at another meeting he said, "I don't
want to use no rifle. I would like to be the commissar sitting there
and telling them, 'Show me your hands. If I find silky hands, nice,
I would like to put a stamp on — Dead. Firing squad.' "
Now back to this meeting.
Mr. Arens. Incidentally, while you have diverted our attention
from the particular names, were you a member of the American
Legion at the time you Avere serving the Government underground in
the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir, but I hardly attended any meetings.
Only when the party told us to attend veterans' meetings, to infiltrate
the veterans' organizations.
Mr. Arens. That was part of the Communist Party strategy, to
infiltrate its membership in patriotic organizations ?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. Correct.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please.
Mi\ CzARNowsKi. Tiiere were all kinds of
During the discussion of this the chairman said, who was Al Rubio,
"It looks like Czerwin wants to start a revolution on his own, which
W'ouldn't be good."
To make the long story short, at the summary of this, Al Rubio
said, "That is correct, comrades. This country is not ready for revolu-
tion yet. First we must educate the people, and the members of the
Communist Party must go to school to learn the leadership so that
when things happen tlie people are ready to move, and the Communist
Party will be ready to give them the leadership and lead them to re-
place this capitalistic form of government with the farmer-workers^
government."
Mr. Arens. All right, sir. Proceed, sir, if you please, sir.
(Committee members present: Eepresentatives Frazier, Velde and
Jackson.)
Mr. CzARNowsKT. Fred Tonini, T-o-n-i-n-i ; employed at the Elec-
tromotive division, and witli the Communist Party.
Harry Poll, formerly employed
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6579
Mr. Arexs. How does he spell Poll ?
Mr. CZARNOWSKI. P-o-1-1.
Formerly employed at the Electromotive division, and believed to
be a swage man or something.
Tom Adams, A-d-a-m-s, at the Electromotive division, LaGvange.
Julian Blackman, formerly employed at the Electromotive division^
and now in California.
Charles Blazina, employed at the Electromotive division in La-
Grange.
Mr. Arens. Spell it, please.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. B-1-a-z-i-n-a.
Ed Puskaric, P-u-s-k-a-r-i-c or c-h. Senior. Employed at the
Electromotive division.
Bogdan Milos. B-o-g-d-a-n, Milos, M-i-1-o-s. Formerly employed
at the Electromotive, now in Yugoslavia.
Paul Dellekamp, D-e-l-l-e-k-a-m-p.
Nick Ruzich, R-u-z-i-c-h. Formerly employed at the Electromotive,
now in Yugoslavia.
Allen Samuels, S-a-m-u-e-1-s ; employed at the Electromotive
division.
Leonard Vonderlack, V-o-n-d-e-r-l-a-c-k ; employed at the Electro-
motive division.
Ray Sergo, S-e-r-g-o; formerly employed at the Electromotive
Division, later with the Burlington Railroad.
Ed Lewis, L-e-w-i-s ; employed at the Electromotive division.
The Communist Party functionaries who have visited the Argo
branch were William Sennett, S-e-n-n-e-t-t, John Schmiess,
S-c-h-m-i-e-s-s, Frank Mucchio, M-u-c-c-h-i-o, Al Glenn, A-1 — Alfred
or Albert — G-1-e-n-n, and Ray Koch, K-o-c-h.
Mr. Arens, Does that complete the names of persons known by you
to have been Communists in this Industrial Club ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, at one time or another. When they left the
plant they naturally left the branch.
As I said, some of them were formerly employed. Wliether or not
they are still Communists I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Czarnowski, were you also identified with a
cultural club of the Communist Party, the Chopin Cultural Club?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, first of all, what was the Chopin Club ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Didn't you want to ask me first about the activities
of the Communist Party in Electromotive after finish ins readiuir the
names «
Mr. Arens. All right, sir.
Tell us, then, the activities of the Communists in the Industrial
Section.
Mr, Czarnowski. The Argo branch
I mean not the Argo branch but the Electromotive branch, officially
called Auto No. 1 branch, has instigated a strike at the Electroniotive
division.
Mr. Arens. When ?
Mr. Czarnowski. In 1945.
This is another situation of a Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Arens. What do they make at the Electromotive division?
5580 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. They manufacture diesel motors, diesel locomo-
tives.
Now when they instigated this strike the people began to grumble.
So the workers began to grumble in that plant. And Gil Green, who
was at this branch meeting, he said that, referring to Walter Reuther,
"This fair-haired boy is getting too popular among the workers
here," because Beuther called up the regional office and blamed the
Communists for starting this strike, which was really not organized.
"And now is our chance to cut him down a few notches."
So the Communist Party members of the Electromotive branch
or Auto 1 branch were instructed to spread a rumor that Reuther
was to blame for this strike.
Mr. Akens. That is Walter Reuther, president of the CIO?
Mr. CzARNowsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Aeens. The auto workers?
Mr. CzARNOwSKi. Was to blame for this strike.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Gil Green was formerly chairman of the Illinois
Communist Party?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Indicted and convicted under the Smith Act ?
Mr. CzABNowsKi, Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Do you know where he is now?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Well, he is where he predicted he will be. He
said just before he disappeared — speaking of Gil Green now since
Congressman Velde asked me
He said, "When I will be in jail and the doors slam behind me, I
will watch American imperialism crumble through the window of
my jail."
Now I honestly hoped that the Government will be good enough
to give him a great big window.
Mr. Velde. Thank you.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Coming back to this conspiracy at the Electro-
motive and Local 719, UAW-CIO, they have conspired, they have
started the strike, and then they couldn't finish it. So they sent a
Communist who was a member of the regional office of the UAW-CIO
here, and they wanted to put him on the negotiating committee of
the CIO, which Reuther would not appoint him.
This man, by the name Al Green, he said :
Reuther will not appoint me on the negotiating committee because I am a
Communist.
So Schmiess, Irving Herman, and Al Glenn tlien said — they dis-
cussed that with the party members, and they have decided that
Sam Okal, who was on the negotiating board and a member of 719,
UAW-CIO, met Harry Poll and Al Glenn in a Thompson Restaurant,
nearby the regional office of the UAW-CIO where they will discuss
the plans how to go over Reuther's head and convince Joe Maclsen,
the regional officer of the UAW-CIO, to appoint Al Glenn on that
strike committee over the head of Walter Reuther. This they did
not succeed in.
So they said that, since the management is delaying action about
negotiating, the Communist Party members should agitate among
the workers that the local vote to join the UAW general strike all
ovpv the countrv. This did not succeed.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6581
So tliey came up and printed a letter. Now that was supposedly
printed by a so-called American Foundation or something on that
order.
This letter was to be spread among the workers to blackmail or
blackball the present leadership of Local 719, UAW-CIO.
Irving Herman said that the letter — parts of the letter first came
out in the Star. And they have distributed that. And the Communist
Party members were not prepared for it. And they demanded from
Irving Herman that he get the original letter and make copies of it,
the original letter of the Foundation of America or what ever it was,
and distribute it among the workers to convince them on their side.
Then Irving Herman was put on the spot because he could not pro-
duce a letter because such a letter never existed. Apparently this
letter was manufactured.
Now here comes the essence of the whole thing.
At the section meeting later on, Sven S-v-e-n A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n, he
told the section committee that if we do not succeed in a general strike
in the UAW — that is the strike that the party members recommended.
I am ahead of myself.
He said that —
We can talk all we want to about the foreign policy and the American imperial-
ists and intervention in China, Indochina and the Philippines and other coun-
tries, but all that will not help us anything if we will not succeed in getting this
General Motors strike rolling, because this general strike will have a definite
influence on our foreign policy.
So the essence of it is that they used the workingmen for their own
benefit in the service of the Soviet Union.
Mr. Arens. Now kindly tell us, if you please, sir, what was the
Chopin Club C-h-o-p-i-n?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. The Chopin Club also has its beginning from the
Communist Party convention of 1947. At that time Gil Green had
the speech, the final speech, that we have a large Polish population
in the Chicago area.
Polish people —
he said —
are generally democratic-minded, but they are good union men. It is the duty
of the Communists that work in the different factories to tell the worker that
General Marshall has promised the West —
something on that order —
the western i^art of Poland to Germany.
Which he said split the Polish- American Congress. He says —
This is our opportunity to take advantage of it to draw the Polish people to our
side. Should the religious question arise —
he said —
tell them that the Soviet Union is not against religion, and tell them there is a
proof of that that Italy has al)out 1 million Communists who are Catholics.
Soon after that the Chopin Club was born or established. It was
established by such Communists as Adam Bednarz, B-p-d-n-a-r-z,
Joseph Helmuth, H-e-l-m-u-t-h, and I believe that Walter Palka was
the third member of the Communists.
Mr. Arens. Spell that last name, please.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. P-a-1-k-a.
85333— 57— pt. 1 29
6582 COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now where did the Chopin Chib meet?
Mr, CzARNOwsKi. Tliey have their own home, the Chopin Club, at —
I have forgotten.
Mr. Akens. Was it here in Chicago?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. In Chicago, on Leavitt Street, the 1500 block
Leavitt.
Mr. Arens. On Leavitt Street?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How many members were there of the Chopin Club?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. I couldn't tell you just how many members there.
Mr. Arens. What is your best appraisal or estimate?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Well, all the members of the Polish IWO were
members of the Chopin Club. Then the Communist Party members,
and some people who went in and out after they recognized that this
is communistic-controlled. They left.
Mr. Arens. Was the Chopin Club a Communist organization or
was it just controlled by the Communist Party and a front?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. It was a Communist-front organization.
The purpose of this organization was — since the Polish people in
this country have not recognized the representative of Poland in this
country, the purpose of this organization was to draw and educate
the people who recognize the Communist Polish representative. That
was the main purpose of this club.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any other comment or observation you
would like to make with respect to the Chopin Club ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. I have a list here of Communist Party members
belonging to the Chopin Club, if I may go into that.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify each of the persons
w^hose names you are about to call off as a person who, to your certain
knowledge, was known by you to be a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please.
Just a moment. The reporter wants to change paper.
Mr, Frazier. The committee will take a recess for 5 minutes.
("Wliereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members present :
Representatives Frazier, Velde, and Jackson.)
(At the expiration of the recess, the committee was reconvened.
Committee members present: Representatives Frazier and Jackson.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Czarnowski, would you kindly resume the witness
seat there, please.
Mr. Czarnowski, just as we recessed a few moments ago you were
in the process of identifying people who, to your certain knowledge,
were Communists in the Chopin Club. Would you kindly proceed?
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Czarnowski. Adam, A-d-a-m, Bednarz, B-e-d-n-a-r-z, member
of the Southwest Section of the Communist Party; delegate to the
1947 State convention ; employed by the CTA.
Walter Palka, 1^-a-l-k-a, delegate to the 1947 Connnunist Party
State convention and other Communist Party functionary meetings.
Employed as a baker.
Selena Palka, wife of Walter.
Mr. Arens. Spell that, please, sir.
COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6583
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. P-a-1-k-a.
Mr. Arens. Spell the first name.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. S-e-1-e-n-a.
Mr. Arexs. And the last name?
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. P-a-1-k-a.
Mr. Arens. And identify her, please.
Mr. Czarnowski. Attended several Communist Party functionary
meetings, and member of the Freedom of the Press Committee.
Mr. Jackson. The what committee?
Mr. Czarnowski. The Freedom of the Press.
Mr. Jackson. In the Communist Party?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes.
Joseph Helmuth, organizer.
Mr. Arens. That Freedom of the Press Committee was created by
the Communist Party to combat the deportations by our Government
of Communist agents who were in the writing field; isn't that correct?
Mr. Czarnowski. Freedom of the Press Committee, as I understood,
was to work for, to get subscriptions for, the Worker.
The other — I haven't been able to get that.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please, sir.
Mr. Czarnowski. Joseph Helmuth, H-e-1-m-u-t-h, organizer of the
Chopin Club. He was a member of the Communist Party, I know
since I read it in the Worker, stating that he has been kicked out of
the party. I have the clipping at home.
Walter Iwinski, I-w-i-n-s-k-i-. He has attended one of the Argo
Branch meetings.
Eugene Jasinski, J-a-s-i-n-s-k-i, delegate to the 1947 Communist
Party convention.
Cazimir Siuba, C-a-z-i-m-i-r S-i-u-b-a, Communist Party. At-
tended Communist Party functionary meetings and one of the con-
ventions.
That is all I have.
Mr. Arens. Now during the course of your experience in the Com-
munist Party did you know a person by the name of Ernest DeMaio ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. D-e M-a-i-o?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?
Mr. Czarnowski. He attended the 1947 convention.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And was he connected with the Midwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. CzARNOAVsKi. He spoke at the Midwest Committee on several
occasions.
Mr. Velde. Wasn't he also head of the UE ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes.
Mr. Velde. The Electrical Workers?
Mr. Czarnowski. He is at the head of the UE.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Velde, do you have any questions?
6584 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. I don't have any questions, Mr. Chairman, but I would
like to say this :
The witness certainly has performed a great service for the Ameri-
can people, for the Congress of the United States, and for the FBI
during the period from 1943, 1 believe it was, until 1955.
I think he deserves every commendation that this committee can
give him, Mr. Chairman.
And rest assured that the American people — that is, the patriotic
American people — will thank you for the very fine, intelligent, logical
testimony that you have given before this committee.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Fkazier. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman, but I want to
subscribe to everything Mr. Velde has said.
The reason the American people hate communism is because they
have learned a great deal about it through the efforts of men like
yourself who have been willing to go into the conspiracy and then
come out and tell the Government what is going on.
You have received one indication of the high esteem in which you
are held by the Communists, and I would say, so far as I am concerned,
that that is a badge of honor.
Mr. CzARNOwsKi. Thank you.
Mr. Jackson. Not only, as Mr. Velde has said, have you rendered
a service to your Government, your adopted Government, but I think
that you have rendered an additional service to free men everywhere,
including those in your homeland who, a month or so ago, were fight-
ing Soviet tanks with their bare hands.
Certainly, in extending our own expression of gratitude to you, it
is the expression of the Congress of the United States, which body au-
thorizes the operations of this committee.
Thank you, Mr. Czarnowski.
Mr. Velde. May I just ask one thing more.
On this threatening letter that you got and turned over to the com-
mittee, have you talked to the FBI about that matter ?
Mr. Czarnowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. If you hadn't, I would suggest that it be turned over to
the FBI to find out, or see if you can find out, who sent it. The per-
son that sent it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Mr. Czarnowski. May I have a word ?
Gentlemen, this work that I have done I have done only for one
sole purpose^ — not only to defend ray country but to defend my family.
My America starts on 7513 West 63d Street in Argo, 111. And
from there on it spreads. My wife and I, we have had a bitter ex-
perience with Communists in Europe. Our entire kinship has been
wiped out.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Czarnowski, on the part of the entire committee,
I want to thank you for the valuable information and for the fine work
that you have done for this committee in testifying here and giving us
such valuable information.
You are under subpena, and, in view of the threat that has been
made against you, you will be continued under that subpena in order
that you may have the protection of the committee and of the Congress
of the United States.
Mr. Czarnowski. Thank you, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6585
Mr. Frazier. The committee will now be in recess until 2 o'clock.
("V^^iereupon, at 12: 15 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., this
same day. Committee members present: Representatives Frazier,
Velde, and Jackson.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— TUESDAY, DECEMBER 4, 1956
(The committee was reconvened at 2 : 08 p. m., upon the expiration
of the recess. Committee members present : Representatives Frazier
and Jackson.)
Mr. Frazier. The committee will come to order.
Let the record show that Mr. Jackson and Mr. Velde and myself,
constituting a quorum of the committee, are present.
Mr. Arens. Ruth Heit. Kindly come forward.
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be ^iven at this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, so help you, God ?
Mrs. Heit. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MES. EUTH HEIT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
PEAEL M. HAET
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Heit. My name is Ruth Heit, H-e-i-t. And I live at 1004 West
Irving Park Road, Chicago, 111.
Mr. AnENS. Complete your answer, if you please.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. My occupation is not pertinent to this inquiry.
Mr. Arens. Please complete your answer.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
JNIrs. Heit. That is my answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. Witness, 3^011 are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer the question, based on my rights
under the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully what your occupation is you would be supplying informa-
tion that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. '\'\^iatever I say is the truth. Nevertheless, I continue
to decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
now reflect an order and direction by the chairman to the witness to
answer the last principal question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. PIeit. I have already answered this question, Mr. Chairman.
But I again repeat that I decline to answer this question upon my
rights as guaranteed under the fifth amendment not to be compelled
to be a witness against myself.
6586 COMMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. In what type of proceeding?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. HErr. That is a legal question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that counsel to
the witness now be admonished that her sole and exclusive preroga-
tives, rights, and privileges here are to advise her client with respect
to her constitutional rights, and not to suggest answers to the client.
Miss Hart. May I make a reply ?
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
JNIrs. Heit. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel?
Mrs. Heit. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Miss Hart. Yes, of course.
Pearl M. Hart, 30 North LaSalle Street, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us if you have produced before the com-
mittee, or if you have custody and control now of, the documents called
for in the subpena which was served upon you.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. Mr. Chairman, the subpena served on me commanded
me
Mr. Arens. Just a moment.
Are you reading from a prepared statement ?
Mrs. Heit. Mr. Chairman, I beg leave
Mr. Arens. You are reading from a prepared statement, are you
not? Please answer the question.
Mr. Heit. Yes ; I am.
Mr, Arens. Tell us the name of every Communist, to your certain
knowledge, who participated in the preparation of that statement.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I object to your assumption that any Communist par-
ticipated in helping me to prepare this statement.
Mr. Arens. Do you deny that a Communist participated in the
preparation of that statement ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\Irs. PIeit. I decline to answer this question.
INIr. Arens. Proceed, if you please.
Why do you decline to answer the question? Let's get the record
straight on that.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question under my rights as
guaranteed by the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mrs. Heit. Not to be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arens. Now proceed, if you please.
Mr. Jackson. Again may I ask, is this a prepared statement?
Mrs. Heit. I answered that question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6587
Mr. Arens. I am uncertain as to whether it is or isn't.
Mrs. Heit. I have prepared the statement, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. Very well. The rules are very clear on the matter of
prepared statements, which must be submitted within a reasonable
time.
Mrs. Heit. Mr. Chairman, I beg leave
I am not an attorney and I do not have the experience of counsel
here for the committee in expressing myself in the kind of language
which is required in a situation like this. And I feel that I am
entitled to
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully
Mrs. Heit. Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. I am directing my ques-
tion to you.
Mr. Frazier. Wait just a minute. Let's see what counsel said.
What did you say, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. There is a question outstanding on the record, as I
understand the status of the record.
Mrs. Heit. What is the question, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. A question directed by the gentleman from California.
Mr. Jackson. I believe the question was answered, Mr. Counsel.
She said it was a prepared statement.
Therefore, unless the statement is considered by the committee and
is voted to be admitted by the committee, it is inadmissible under the
rules of the committee.
Mrs. Heit. P]xcuse me, Mr. Chairman. May I finish my question
to you ?
I simply wanted to explain and ask leave of the Chair to be per-
mitted to explain my answer to a question which your counsel has
asked me before.
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question.
Do 3'OU have the records before you today called for in the subpena
which was served upon you ? Yes or no.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. If you will answer that question we can get on.
]Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr, Frazier. I direct you to answer it.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
ilrs. Heit. The subpena served on me commanded me to pro-
duce
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment.
Mrs. Heit. This is my answer, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Frazier. Yes, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. The witness is reading from a prepared statement
in violation of the rules of procedure of the committee.
Unless the statement is presented to the committee for its perusal,
I shall continue to object. It is a violation of the rules under which
this committee operates.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Frazier. Witness, you have just heard Mr. Jackson's statement,
on the rules of the committee. I am sure your counsel under-
stands that, whether you do or not. And you are not permitted to
read from a statement unless it has been submitted to the committee
6588 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
and they have passed on it and determined whether or not it is ad-
missible.
You can ^o ahead and answer the question if you want to. But you
are not permitted to read from a statement.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you have the documents called for in the subpena
which was served upon you ? Do you have them with you today ?
Mrs. Heit. Before I answer that question
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question.
Mrs. Heit. May I simply ask leave to file this statement ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I su^^jest that the witness be now, on
this record, ordered to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I have answered the question, that I haven't got the
records, and I would like to give the reasons.
Mr. Arens. Are you now executive secretary of the Midwest Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Very well, we will go at it another way then.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness' attention be
directed to a document which has been identified in this record. It is
the Lamp of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
under date of April 1956. .
In this document, which we shall now exhibit to the witness, is set
forth the description of the Midwest Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, Miss Ruth Heit, executive secretary.
(See exhibit No. 248, appendix, p. 7519.)
I also, Mr. Chairman, exhibit to the witness a telegram which is in
custody of the Committee on Un-American Activities, directed to the
chairman of this committee, signed "Ruth Heit, executive secretary,
Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born," requesting a
postponement in her appearance before this committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 376," see appendix, p. 7767.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly look at those two documents and tell
this committee while you are under oath whether or not they ade-
quately and correctly describe you and your status as executive secre-
tary of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question under my rights as
guaranteed by the first amendment, which guarantees me the right of
free speech and association, and also under my rights under the fifth
amendment which guarantees that a witness may not be compelled to
testify against one's self.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, in view of the status of this record
and the identity of this witness on the record as executive secretary
of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, I respect-
fully suggest that the subpena duces tecum be at this point incor-
porated in the appendix to the record, and that the record reflect an
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6589
order and direction to this witness now to produce before the commit-
tee the documents called for in the subpena duces tecum.
(Document marked "Exhibit Nos. o77 and 378," see appendix, pp.
7768,7769.)
Mr. Frazier. It may be done.
And I direct you to produce the records as named in the subpena
duces tecum.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, please tell ■
Mr. Jackson. Wait a minute.
There is a direction for the immediate production of the records.
Mrs. Heit. I refuse to produce the records.
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, where were you on the night of Novem-
ber 16? Do you recall?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
(Committee members present: Kepresentatives Frazier, A^elde, and
Jackson.)
Mrs. Heit. I don't remember.
Air. Arens. Do you recall being in a little meeting at the YMCA,
19 South La Salle Street?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. No. I don't recall that.
Mr. Arens. Were you at a meeting, on or about November 16, of
the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born officials at
the YMCA Building at 19 South La Salle Street?
(Tlie witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. The fact is you were at that meeting on November 16
and you made a statemer.t to the comrades there assembled, including
others
Mrs. Heit. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Arens (continuing). That there will be a surprise for the
committee when it arrives in Chicago, and that there should be a
solicitation of petitions against this committee.
I put that to you as a fact and ask you while you are under oath
to affirm or deny that.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Noav we exhibit to you a document prepared by the
Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, an original docu-
ment Vvhich has been circulated, so our investigation discloses, among
certain groups and organizations in Chicago, setting forth the subpena
duces tecum which was served upon you, and calling upon the
recipients to do a number of things, including contacting their repre-
sentatives in Congress, the signing of protests against the committee
and against the procedures of the committee.
Kindly look at this document with its attachment and tell this
committee now while you are under oath whether, to your certain
knowledge, that document was prepared and circulated by the Mid-
west Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 379," see appendix, pp. 7770,
7771.)
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Heit. Well, IVIr. Counsel, I refuse to answer this question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
6590 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Heit. It is completely irrelevant to the purpose of this in-
vestigation.
In addition, I feel it violates my rights under the first amendment
which guarantees me
Mr. Arens. In order to set your mind clear on the relevance of
it, may I tell you now that this committee is here in Chicago in the
course of a series of hearings to undertake to develop information
respecting the activities of the Communist conspiracy on what we
call political subversion.
You just look at that document and tell us whether or not, to your
certain knowledge, that was prepared by people known by you to be
in the Communist conspiracy.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I answered that question, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question on the gi'ounds of
the first amendment, which guarantees the freedom of speech and
association and press, and on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, how long have you lived in the area of Chicago?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question under my rights as
guaranteed by the first amendment and by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliere did you live prior to the time you came to Chi-
cago?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. The fact is you lived in New York City and were
sent to Chicago by the Communist conspiracy to take over the work
of the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Isn't that true ? If it isn't, deny it while you are under oath,
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. What was your maiden name?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Your maiden name was Ruth Geiser, was it not,
G-e-i-s-e-r, Geiser?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you were a leading light of the Stiiyvesant Club of the
Communist Party in New York City prior to the time that you came
to Chicago.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now in New York City you did a little tutoring, did
you not ? In fact, you taught at the Jefferson School of Social Science
in New York, did you not ?
COJVanJXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6591
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. And you were also active in the Civil Rights Congress
in New York City prior to the time that you came to Chicago, were
you not?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. And you were also administrative secretary of the
Communist-controlled xVmerican Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, were you not ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment, which guarantees the right and the freedom of association,
press, and speech, and also on the grounds of the fifth amendment,
not to be compelled to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arexs. Who is A]:)ner Green ? Do you know him ?
JMrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Abner Green is a hard-core agent of the Conununist
conspiracy, is he not ?
]Mi"s. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. He was your boss when you were working for the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, was he not?
yivs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. Did you know that Abner Green testified before the
Subversive Activities Control Board in February of 1956?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. You accompanied Abner Green to Washington when
he testified, did you not ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment which guarantees me the right of association.
And also under the fifth amendment which guarantees that I may
not be compelled to testify against myself.
Mr. Arexs. Now I would like to lay before vou the letterhead of the
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, July 7, 1954,
and on this letterhead of the New York CommUtee for Protection of
Foreign Born we see Administrative Secretary Ruth Heit.
Look at that and see if you can't help this committee of the Congress,
your Government, by verifying the authenticity of that designation.
(The witness examines document and confers'with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. What is the question, Mr. Counsel ?
6592 COMIHUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. See if you can't help this committee of the Congress by
telling us whether or not you will verify the authenticity of that
designation of yourself in connection with the New York Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question, and also feel that this
is impertinent and irrelevant to the investigation.
Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Hept. I have answered the question, that I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. The record is clear you have been ordered and directed
to answer that question, is it not?
You have not at this point invoked the fifth amendment.
Mrs. Keit. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment, which guarantees me the right of association and press and
speech. And also on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a reproduction of the letterhead
of the New York Conference To Defend the Rights of Foreign Born
Americans, Administrative Secretary Ruth Heit.
Apparently you had two jobs there.
Please look at that letterhead and see if you won't confirm the
authenticity of that letterhead.
(See exhibit No. 113, appendix, p. 7295.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Appell. Left-hand column.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Now I display to you a summary of the proceedings
of the National Conference To Repeal the. Walter-McCarran Law and
Defend Its Victims, held in Chicago December 12 and 13, 1953 ; par-
ticularly the reference to "reports on Meetings of Natioiial Groups
* * * Jewish— Ruth Heit."
Please look at this document and see if you won't help this congres-
sional committee by verifying the authenticity of your participation
in that conference representing the nationality groups.
(See exhibit V, appendix, p. 8343.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment, which guarantees me the freedom of association. And also on
the fifth amendment, which guarantees that I may not be compelled
to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arens. Now we are going to display to you a copy of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of September 1954. There is an article there:
Demo Platform Body Hears People's Needs.
If you look there at the continuation of the story, which appears
on page 4, you Avill find that the story quotes Miss Ruth Heit of the
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, as calling upon
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6593
the Democratic Party to strike back on the mass deportation drive
being threatened by the McCarran-Walter Act.
Tell this committee now while you are under oath, did you appear
before the Democratic platform committee, I assume in the State of
New York, and call upon that organ of a great political party to
strike back against mass deportations ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 380," see appendix, p. 7772.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Arens. Did you do all that ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Did you identify yourself when you appeared before
the Democratic platform committee as a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
( Committee members present : Representatives Frazier, Velde, and
Jackson.)
Mrs. Heit. Mr. Chairman, I would like to object to the assumption
on the part of counsel in the question that he has placed to me.
Mr. Arens. If that question, if that assertion isn't true, while you
are under oath, ma'am, you deny it.
Mrs. Heit. At the same time I wish to decline to answer it on the
grounds of the first amendment and on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Now we exhibit to you a document relating to the
Chicago Jewish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Please look at that document, this leaflet, telling all about horrible
things that are happening to innocent citizens under the McCarran-
Walter Act, and tell this committee whether or not, to your certain
knowledge, this Chicago Jewish Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born is controlled lock, stock, and barrel by the Communist conspiracy.
If it isn't, to your certain knowledge, deny it while you are under oath.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 381a, b," see appendix, pp. 7773,
7774.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
]Mr. Jackson. Does the witness find this proceeding extremely
humorous ?
Mrs. Heit. No ; I don't. On the contrary, I find it extremely
Mr. Jackson. One would gather the impression that you think this
is a very humorous affair.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
!Mr. Arens. Do you know Dorothy Weber.
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. We display to you now several documents, all fiom the
James Keller Defense ('ommittee in Chicago, an action program to
defend James Keller and other McCarran-Walter law victims.
Accompanying them is a letterhead of the James Keller Defense
Committee, Dorothy Weber, secretary.
6594 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly look at those documents and tell this committee now while
you are under oath whether or not, to your certain knowledge, the
James Keller Defense Committee was created by the Communist Party
in Chicago.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 382 and 383a, b," see appendix,
pp. 7775-7780.)
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines documents.)
Mrs. Heit. Mr. Counsel, I decline to answer.
But I really fail to see why you bring in this implication in your
question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of the James Keller Defense Committee ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you a document published
by the Midwest Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and
Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Americans, under the auspices of
the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And par-
ticularly we want to invite your attention to the list of people here
facing deportation. Apparently there are some 80 people listed here.
I am not certain of the number. There is quite a number of people
listed who are facing deportation.
I want you to look at that list there and tell this committee if you
know of a single person on this list who was facing deportation who
was not a member of the Communist Party.
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Did you make the arrangements for the conference
alluded to in that last exhibit?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I want to display to you now a letter addressed to
myself, Mr. Richard Arens, director, Committee on Un-American
Activities, dated November 21, 1956, from the Midwest Hotel Catering
Corp., in which the author of the letter for this corporation states
that the arrangements for this conference were made by Ruth Heit.
Please look at this letter and see if the author of this letter is giving
us a truthful statement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 384," see appendix, p. 7781.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I am not responsible for what anybody else writes.
Mr. Arens. Just tell the committee whether or not he told me the
truth or whether he was lying when he said you made the arrange-
ments for that conference.
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens Why?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to back up a little bit in the chronology
just so that this record is clear.
We have here a copy of the New Pioneer. This New Pioneer is a
magazine which lists a number of j^eople on the advisory board, the
readers' advisory board, including one Ruth Geiser, G-e-i-s-e-r.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 385a, b," see appendix, pp. 7782,
7783.)
Is that Geiser ?
Mrs. Heit. It is Geiser.
Mr. Arens. How did you know it was Geiser ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6595
]Mr. Arens. How did you know it was Geiser ?
Mrs. Heit. Because I saw it.
Mr. Arens. You saw it where ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect a crystal-clear order to this witness to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Heit. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that it
is not pertinent or relevant to this inquiry, and also on the grounds
of the first amendment and on the grounds of the fifth amendiiient.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell, would you kindly display this to the wit-
ness and see if she can't help this committee of the Congress verify
the authenticity of that designation.
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer,
Mr. Arens. Now we have a copj- of the 1937 Young Communist
League of America yearbook. The yearbook of the Young Com-
munist League of America, listing the people who sent greetings.
We see the name of Ruth Geiser appearing here.
Look in this reproduction of the Young Communist League year-
book and tell this committee while you are under oath whether or not
that that name identifies you.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 386," see appendix, pp. 778^
7786.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. PIeit. I decline to answer because this is not pertinent to any
of the questions raised in the subpena, which covers a period from
1953 to 1956.
And I also decline to answ^er on the grounds of the first amendment
and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We want to display to you a document that perhaps
you can help us with. It is a bulletin of the Jefferson School of
Social Science announcing the courses to be taught. And the course in
Yiddish is being taught, according to this document, by Ruth Heit.
And the same publication : another course in Yiddish is being taught
by Ruth Pleit, Jefferson School of Social Science, fall, 1951.
Look at that document and tell us w^hether or not you are the Ruth
Heit that was teaching these courses at the Jeft'erson School of Social
Science.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 387," see appendix, pp. 7787--
7789.) _ •
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. We will display at this time still another bulletin of
the Jefferson School of Social Science, the winter term of 1952, in
which 3'our name appears.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 388," see appendix, pp. 7790,
779L)
(The witness examines document.)
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Heit. I decline to answer on the grounds that the questions
are not relevant to the subject of the inquiry. And also on the grounds
of the first amendment and the fifth amendment.
6596 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, on the grounds of this matter of
relevancy, I can imagine nothing more relevant than to determine
whether *^or not one who has spent a very long period of time in the
Communist Party has become active in an organization which is at-
tacking federal legislation.
It certainly is a matter that is relevant and within the scope of this
committee to inquire into.
I simply want it on the record, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff' interrogation of this witness.
Mrs. Heit. Mr. Chairman, before you conclude the interrogation,
may I ask leave to file my statement with your committee that was
prepared here?
Mr. Frazler. You may file it.
(The statement referred to was filed for the information of the
committee.)
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Frazier. AVait a minute.
Miss Hart. I thought she was dismi ^sed.
Mr. Velde. I have no questicmj;.
Mr. Jackson. I have no questions .
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Mr.
Ernest DeMaio.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be given at this hearing will
be the truth, the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mr. DeMaio. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EENEST DeMAIO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING MEYERS
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
,Mr. DeMaio. Ernest DeMaio, Chicago, 111. I am the district presi-
dent of the United Electrical, Radio & Machine Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. DeMaio, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities?
Mr. DeINIaio. That is right, sir.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, Avill you kindl,y identify yourself.
Mr. Meyers. Irving Meyers, 188 AFest Randolph Street, Chicago,
Mr. Arens. Mr. DeMaio, do you know a man by the name of Czar-
no w ski ?
Mr. DeMaio. Will you identify him ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Czarnowski, are you in tlie hearing room?
Were you in the hearing room this morning when Mr.
Czarnowski
Mr. DeMaio. Yes.
Mr. Arens. When he testified?
Mr. DeMaio. I was in the hearing room this morning.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Czarnowski testified, while he was an undercover
agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, serving his Govern-
ment in the Communist Party, he knew you as a Communist.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6597
Was Mr. Czarnowski lyin^ or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. DeMaio. I am going to refuse to answer that question, Mr.
Counsel.
Mr. Arens. INIr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. DeMaio. I have refused to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
and all similar questions on my views, affiliations, or lack of them,
associations or lack of them, because they invade my rights under the
first amendment of the Constitution.
I will also refuse to answer any questions concerning any activities
or lack of them regarding legislation because I believe that they
invade my right under another section of the first amendment where
the people are guaranteed the right to petition their Government for
redress of grievances.
I further will refuse that and all future questions of a similar nature,
that this committe may direct to me, based on my rights under the
fifth amendment, and, in so doing, Mr. Chairman, I want to make
clear that those words were placed in the Constitution to protect the
innocent, and the use or invocation of the fifth amendment is no evi-
dence of crime or wrongdoing.
And in invoking the first and fifth amendment, I have that in
mind.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Are you innocent of any participation in the Com-
munist conspiracy ?
Mr. DeMaio. I have already answered the question.
Mr. Arens. Then answer it again.
Mr. DeMaio. Was the answer not clear, sir ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I had hoped to save this committee some time, as
well as myself.
If you wish to have the answer repeated, I would like to ask the
secretary
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this witness be
again ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer the question for the reasons already
stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of AValter W. Ramsey ?
Mr. DeMaio. Will you identify him ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Ramsey appeared before the Connnittee on Un-
American Activities and identified you as a person he knew to be a
member of the (Communist Party.
Was Mr. Ramsey lying or M'as he telling the truth ?
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
already stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we would like to display to you certain exhibits.
Perhaps you can help this Committee on Un-American Activities
defend the Constitution.
85333— 57— pt. 1 30
6598 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. DeMaio. I will be happy to help this committee, Mr. Counsel,
now or any other time,
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Tell this committee'then, as you look at the first one — it is a repro-
duction of an article which appeared in the Communist Daily Worker
of June 7, 1951. It identifies you as chairman of a conference which
honored Ferdinand Smith and others at the Packing House Working
Center on June 9, 1951.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 389," see appendix, p. 7792.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Please help this committee by telling us whether or not
you are accurately identified there and whether or not you were a
chairman of this conference.
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons I
have already stated.
Mr. Arens. Now did yon attend a conference in 1953, a Midwest
Conference to Defend the Bill of Rights, held at the United Elec-
trical Workers Hall, 37 South Ashland Boulevard in Chicago?
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer the question; the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. "Warning. The Walter-McCarran Law vs. U. S.
Liberty." "Police-State^Conditions."
I am reading from this exhibit.
The speakers at this big rally to be held, according to this announce-
ment, under the auspices of the Midwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, includes an Ernest DeMaio.
Please look at that document as it is displayed to you and tell this
committee while you are under oath whether or not you were one
of the leaders and speakers at that gathering.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 390," see appendix, pp. 7793,
7794.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question; the same reasons..
Mr. Arens. You have in the past taken quite a stand with refer-
ence to the Constitution, have you not, in some of your writings?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. Will you repeat that question, sir?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Have you been an author of certain articles in the March of Labor
with reference to defending the Constitution against witch hunts?
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. You wouldn't be ashamed of that, would you ? Telling
the world about how you stand on witch hunts and defending the
Constitution ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Let's look here.
We have an article from the March of Labor:
"Will the Hight Court Brake the Witch Hunt?" By Earnest
DeMaio.
"Congressional witch-hunters down to size."
The congressional witch hunters — Velde, Jenner and company-
are destroying the Constitution, tied up with the money grabbers,
blacklisting people, destroying civil liberties, and the like.
And in the upper left-hand corner we see a quotation from the
Constitution.
Now look at that article and tell us, as one of the defenders of the
Constitution, if you are the author of that article.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6599
(Docmnent marked "Exhibit No. 391," see appendix, pp. 7795,
7796.)
(The witness examines document.)
]\Ir. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arexs. Wlien you wrote that article were you at that time a
member of a cons])iracy designed to destroy the Constitution that
you were writing about ?
Mr. DeMaio. I am not sure that I understand the question.
Mr. Arens. The Communist Party, which has been found by the
Supreme Court of the United States and every congressional commit-
tee that has studied it, tlie Attorney General, all agencies of the Gov-
ernment, as a conspiratorial operation.
Were you a member of the Communist Party when you wrote that
article ?
Mr. DeMaio. I am still not clear on that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. Witness, you are directed to answer the question.
It is a very clear question : whether you were a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. DeMaio. I will answer it, Mr. Chairman.
The reason I say I am not clear on it: Counsel here, his last em-
ployer, stated that the Supreme Court, in its decision on desegrega-
tion, was part on the Communist conspiracy.
I am not clear on that.
Mr. Arens. Who is this you are talking about, please ?
Mr. DeMaio. You.
Mr. Arens. You are not suggesting — a great patriot such as you —
you are not suggesting this guilt-by-association process here before
this committee, are you?
Mr. DeMaio. I am only suggesting that I wasn't clear on the ques-
tion, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Let's get clear on the question.
When you wrote that article in March of Labor, were you a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question; same reason.
Mr. Arexs. Now we lay before you still another document, the
Communist Daily Worker, Thursday, June 23, 1949. This docu-
ment here quotes one Ernest DeMaio as attacking Judge Medina.
Judge Medina's court is obviously no courtroom of justice.
This is all with reference to the jailing of the Communist agent,
Gil Green.
Look at that article and tell this committee now while you are un-
der oath whether or not j^ou were accurately quoted there in attacking
Judge Medina, contending that his courtroom was not a place of
justice.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 392," see appendix, p. 7797.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question ; same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. DeMaio. Same reasons I have already given.
Mr. Arens. Now we would like to invite your attention to still
some other activities of yourself as evidenced by some of these docu-
ments.
We have here a document headed "The National Nonpartisan
Committee To Defend the Rights of the 12 Communist Leaders."
You are listed here as one of the founders of this committee from
the State of Illinois.
6600 COMMITNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Please look at this document, this letterhead, and tell this com-
mittee whether or not you are one of the initiators of this organiza-
tion to defend the 12 Communist traitors.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 393," see appendix, pp. 7797-
7799.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now in your allegiance to the Bill of Rights and to
the Constitution did you join with a number of others in sponsoring
a Bill of Rights Conference in New York City in 1949, all to save the
Bill of Rights?
A very laudable objective.
Did you do all that ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. You wouldn't be ashamed of anything you did to save
the Bills of Rights, would you ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Please look at this document : 1,300 plan a fight to save
the Bill of Rights, including Ernest DeMaio, Midwest CIO, United
Electrical leader.
Please look at that and tell this committee if you can't help us
out, telling us, as anyone ought to, with pride, what you have done to
save the Bill of Rights.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 394," see appendix, p. 7799.)
Mr. DeIMaio. I decline to answer the question ; same reasons,
Mr. Akens. You have also been a great fighter for peace, haven't
you?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. Is that a question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Yes, we would like to know.
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. You couldn't be ashamed of fighting for peace, could
you? It is a very laudable objective.
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Now while our boys were dying with their hands tied
behind their backs in Korea, did you join with others in a state-
ment condemning what you called aggression by the United States
in Korea ?
Look at this article here appearing in the Daily Worker of July
7, 1950, and tell this committee whether or not, while our boys were
dying with their hands tied behind their backs in Korea, you joined
in the statement condemning this Nation under whose flag you obtain
protection from aggression.
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 395," see appendix, p, 7800.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer the question ; same reasons,
Mr, Arens. Did you feel you were serving the interests of the
Constitution and the protection of this Nation in joining in that
statement ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer the question ; same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Now have you ever applied for a passport?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question ; same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6601
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons I
have ah-eady stated phis the valid legislative purpose — the invalid
legislative purpose.
Mr. Aeens. We display to you now a photostatic copj^ of the New
York Times of November 12, 1950 (p. 1), quoting the Secretary of
State, or quoting the State Department, in a denial of a passport to
you, in which you applied for a passport to go to the World Peace
Congress held behind the Iron Curtain in Warsaw, Poland.
Look at this document and tell this committee while you are under
oath whether or not you were one of the leaders of this movement at
the World Peace Congress.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 396," see appendix, pp. 7800,
7801.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question ; the same reasons.
Mr. Akens. Well, you have been active in peace right here at home ;
haven't you ?
We have, now, a document, the minutes of the sponsors' meeting of
the American Peace Crusade, held in Washington, the Nation's
Capital.
We see here that one of the members of the planning committee for
this group is Ernest DeMaio.
Was that you ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 397," see appendix, pp. 7801,
7802.)
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. You wouldn't be ashamed of fighting for peace, would
you ? And fighting for it in the Nation's Capital ? Unless, of course,
you were doing so surreptitiously to serve the interests of a foreip-n-
controlled conspiracy ^
Mr. DeMaio. Is that a question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Were you a member of the Commmiist Party conspiratorial appa-
ratus when you were in Washington, D. C, with the American Peace
Crusade?
Either answer that now or take the fifth amendment.
Mr. DeMaio. I don't think it is necessary for the counsel to shout.
I can hear him. I am only a few feet from him.
I refuse to answer that question for the reasons already stated.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you the March 26, 1951 issue of the Peace
Crusader of the American Peace Crusade, declaring : "2,500 pilgrim-
age delegates plan new peace drive."
You are listed there as one of the sponsors.
Please tell this committee while you are under oath whether you
are accurately designated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 398," see appendix, pp. 7803-
7809.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer the question for the reasons already
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we have a leaflet: "Come to Washington and tell
your Congresman you want peace."
This is in April of 1952 — "Delegates' National Assembly for
Peace" — a laudable objective.
One of the sponsors listed here is Ernest DeMaio.
Look at that and tell this committee while you are under oath if
you are he.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 399," see appendix, p. 7810.)
6602 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
already stated.
Mr. Akexs. We have an article from the Daily Worker (April 10,
1953, p. 6) : "Urge President to meet Malenkov."
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Malenkov was a top official of Soviet Kussia, was he not?
And on April 10, 1953, we see a number of people urging the Pi-esi-
dent to meet Malenkov, as reported by the Communist Daily Worker,
including one Ernest DeMaio.
Look at that document and tell us whether or not you recall joining
in that operation.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 400," see appendix, p. 7811.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question ; same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently connected with the Midwest Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently connected with the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question also, for the same
reasons.
Mr. Arens. Are you this moment a member of the Communist con-
spiratorial apparatus?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the statf interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Any questions ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Meyers. Is this witness released?
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. Helen Lewis, kindly come forward.
Mr. Fil\zier. Will you hold up your right hand ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony to be given at this hear-
ing will be the truth, the wliole truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Lewis. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LEWIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING G. STEINBERG
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Lewis. My name is Helen Lewis. I live at 1508 Juneway
Terrace, Chicago, 111. And I am a housewife.
Mr. Arends. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mrs. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented b}^ counsel ?
Mrs. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourself.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6603
Mr. Steinbekg. Irving G. Steinberg, 180 West Washington.
Mr, Arens. How long have you resided in Chicago ?
Mrs. Lewis. I decline to answer that, sir, under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Le-vvis. I shall decline to answer, sir, under the fifth amend-
ment.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Arens. What State did you live in prior to the time that you
came to Chicago ?
Mrs. Lewis. I shall decline to answer that, sir, under the fifth
amendment and under the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mt. Frazeer. You are ordered and directed to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Lewis. Would you Idndly repeat the question?
Mr. Arens. ^^Tiere did you live prior to the time j^ou came to
Chicago ?
Mrs. Lewis. Yes, I remember. I had forgotten for a moment.
I will decline to answer that, sir, under that part of the Constitution
and that part of the fifth amendment which guarantees me the right
not to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. We now exhibit to you a document, the letterhead of
the Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, showing,
among the sponsors of that organization, the name Helen Lewis.
Please look at that document and tell the committee whether or not
you are accurately identified in that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 401," see appendix, p. 7812.)
Mrs. Lewis. While the gentleman is coming over, may I ask him for
a ^lass of water ?
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mrs. Lewis. And would it be impolite for me to smoke?
Mr. Arens. They don't permit smoking in the courtroom.
I am advised by the chairman that I was in error in the interpreta-
tion of what I thought was the rule. I understand you may smoke.
Mrs. Lewis. I just didn't want to appear unladylike, but I would
feel calmer if I did.
Mr. Frazier. I have permitted counsel to smoke at the table this
morning.
Mrs. Lewis. Thank you, sir, very much.
Mr. Frazier. I don't think I should deny you that privilege if you
want to exercise it.
Mr. Arens. Please tell the committee whether or not you are prop-
erly identified there as one of the officers or sponsors of the Midwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Lewis. I sliall decline, sir, to answer that question under the
first amendment and, likewise, under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Xow, according to the program of the '20th Anniversary
Conference of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, which was held here in Chicago in 1951, you were chairman of
the women's panel of that group.
6604 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Look at this program and see if it refreshes your recollection. See
if you can help this committee of the Congress develop information.
(See exhibit III, appendix, pp. 8303-8316.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Can't you help us ?
Mr. Steinberg. I want to
(Counsel for the witness confers with Mr. Appell.)
Mrs. Lewis. I use my privilege, sir, under the first amendment.
which guarantees me the right of freedom of speech and freedom of
association, and, likewise, under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was Emma Lazarus ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. You know that, and there is no reason why you
shouldn't tell us.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Lewis. It is public knowledge that Emma Lazarus is the
poetess whose inscription is on the Statue of Liberty.
Mr. Arens. And you are president of the Emma Lazarus Federa-
tion at the present time ; are you not ?
Mr. Steinberg. She didn't finish her answer.
Mr. Arens. We will take care of things, Counsel.
You are president of the Emma Lazarus Federation at the present
time ; are you not ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Lewis. Would you kindly repeat the question ?
Mr. Arens. Are you president of the Emma Lazarus Federation at
the present time ?
Mrs. Lewis. Sir, Emma Lazarus was a very famous poet. She was
internationally known. And I think that what she wrote on the Statue
of Liberty we all subscribe to wholeheartedly.
You asked me about the poem ?
Mr. Arens. No. I am asking you now about the federation. Are
you president of the Emma Lazarus Federation ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. You can help the committee. We have had experience
that the Communists use beautiful names, American names, and per-
vert them for subversive purposes. For example, they established an
Abraham Lincoln Brigade to go help fight for the Communist causes.
They do that right along.
They have a Jefferson School of Social Science.
Now tell us. Are you president of the Emma Lazarus Federation ?
Mrs. Lewis. Sir, I suppose that when I asked if I might smoke a
cigarette you might realize that in the present setting I truly feel
extremely apprehensive of answering that question, and shall claim my
right under the first amendment and under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Emma Lazarus was a lovely woman, was she not, and
a great poet ?
Mrs. Lewis. Yes ; she was.
Mr. Arens. And one who wrote inspiring verse ; did she not ?
Mrs. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And her verse is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty.
Give me your tired, your i)oor
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6605
She wrote all that ; didn't she ?
Mrs. Lewis. I am sure you feel very proud of that, sir.
Mr. Arens. You tell us what you have done to commemorate her
name.
Are you president of an organization that bears her name ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Ajrens. I think you ought to be proud if you are, unless that
organization happens to be part of a conspiratorial apparatus.
Now tell this committee while you are under oath : Are you president
of the Emma Lazarus Federation ?
Mrs. Lewis. Sir, I am exceedingly apprehensive in the present set-
ting, and I shall refuse to answer that question, on the first amend-
ment and on the fifth amendment, particularly under that part of the
j&fth amendment which guarantees me the right not to testify against
myself.
Mr. Akens. Against youi-self in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Lewis. Well, I feel so harassed and very apprehensive.
Mr. Arens. We don't mean to harass you. We only want the facts
and only want the truth.
Do you honestly feel that if you told tliis committee truthfully
whether or not you are president of the Emma Lazarus Federation
Mrs. Lewis. I only speak the
Mr. Arens. — you would divulge information that might be used
against j'ou in a criminal proceeding? Just tell us that.
Mrs. Lewis. I always speak the truth.
Mr. Arens. So we know whether or not you are using the fifth
amendment in good faith.
Mrs. Lewis. I speak the truth, and I have answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Lewis. I said before, sir, and I say again, that I refuse to
answer or decline to answer — whichever is the proper word to use — •
under the first amendment and, likewise, under that part of the fifth
amendment which guarantees me the right not to testify against
myself.
Mr. Arens. In what kind of proceeding? You seem to have pretty
good language there. What kind of proceeding ?
Mrs. Lewis. In any kind of proceeding.
Mr. Arens. It is a proceeding in which you would be giving in-
formation which could be used against you in a criminal action. Isn't
that true ? Didn't your lawyer tell you that ?
Mrs. Lewis. I am apprehensive, sir.
Mr. Arens. Xow tell us: In 1954 the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born had a big national conference in New York
City, and we see you here as one of the leaders of that conference, and
one who reported for the women's panel.
Look at this proceeding here and tell the committee while you are
under oath whether or not you are accurately identified as one who
reported for the women's panel of the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born in this big rally and conference in New York
City.
(See exhibit VI, appendix, p. 8374.)
6606 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Lewis. In the present context, sir, and the present circum-
stances, I use the first amendment and the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of an organization dedicated to
the destruction of the Constitution of the United States?
Mrs. Lewis. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, I want to invite your attention to an article
appearing in the National Guardian (August 22, 1955) . Before doing
so I want to ask you; who was Cedric Belfrage?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Lewis. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Arens. He was a Communist that was deported; was he not?
Mrs. Lewis. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Here is something I would like to read to you.
Au Revoirs for Belfrage.
Chicago, Illinois.
As reported in the National Guardian :
Parting is such bitter sorrow but sweet from many struggles we've been through
together. We'll miss your wit, your great fund of information, and you —
We envy Great Britain for getting you back temporarily. But we expect you
over here again soon with that sharp and wonderful pen of yours and the serious
smile.
Best of luck in the meantime, and love from all of us.
Sent by a number of people, all of whom have been identified some-
how or other as Communists. And we see Helen E. Lewis appearing
here.
Please look and see if you affixed your signature to that sentimental
note to Belfrage to take on his journey at the request of the Govern-
ment of the United States.
Mr. Jackson. That was one mess we were well rid of appefiring
before this committee. That justified every act we ever have taken
against him.
Mr. Arens. Please look at that letter and tell us whether or not you
sigTied it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 402," see appendix, p. 7813.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Lewis. I shall decline to answer, sir, under the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell the committee wdiat you have done to de-
vote your life to the very laudable objective of peace?
l^^at have you done now to help promote peace in the world?
Via what organizations have you devoted your talents for peace?
Mrs. Lewis. I shall decline to answer that, sir.
Mr. Arens. We would like to lay before you a call to a Chicago Area
Conference for World Peace Through Negotiations, October 1053, all
under the leadership of a number of people, including one wdio is
identified here as Helen Lewis.
Look at this document and tell us whether or not you were properly
identified there as one of the moving forces for peace.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 403a, b," see appendix, pp. 7814,
7815.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Lewis. I shall decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
COMRIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6607
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Lewis. I shall decline to answer, sir, on the grounds of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Are there any questions?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Jacksok. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. Alma Foley, kindly come forward.
Mr. Frazier. I think we will take a recess for about 5 minutes.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Foley, the committee will take a recess. So it
won't be necessary for you to come forward at the moment.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent: Representatives Frazier, Velde, and Jackson.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Representatives Frazier, Velde, and
Jackson.)
Mr. Frazier. The committee will come to order.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arexs. Alma Foley, kindly come forward.
Remain standing while the chairman administers an oath to you,
please.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony to be given at this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Foley. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ALMA FOLEY; ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, PEARL M. HART
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Foley. My name is Alma Foley. I live at 2290 County
Road J, Minneapolis, Minn. I am a housewife.
Mr. Arexs. And do you have any other occupation?
Mrs. Foley. I am a housewife.
Mr. Arexs. Do you have any other occupation ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. "What do you
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. What do you mean by occupation ?
Mr. Arexs. Well, ma'am, you know what an occupation is.
Tell this committee do you have any occupation besides your occu-
pation of housewife?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. My main occupation is as a housewife.
Mr. iVitExs. What is your subsidiary occupation?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. My occupation is a housewife.
Mr. Arexs. Now, please tell the committee do you have any other
occupation other than the occupation of housewife?
Mrs. Foley. Will you define the word "occupation," please?
6608 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You know what the word "occupation" means. Don't
parry with me.
Tell the committee whether or not you are the executive secretary
of the Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you then have some other occupation that you just
didn't want to tell us about?
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazter. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment and of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, you are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Mrs. Foley. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Foley. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Miss Hart. Pearl M. Hart, 30 North La Salle Street, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. This subpena which was served upon you — Is it Miss
or Mrs. Foley ?
Mrs. Foley. Mrs. Foley.
Mr. Arens. Calls upon you to produce before this committee certain
documents of the Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. Do you have custody and control of those documents?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer on the basis of the first amendment
and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Then we will have to establish your record here.
Mrs. Foley, we invite your attention, if you please, to certain docu-
ments, certain exhibits. The exhibit that we lay before you now is a
photostatic copy of the Lamp of the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. In that document, dated July 1952, appears
the following :
On May 21, representatives of defense committees meeting in Minneapolis
voted to establish a Provisional Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born with Mrs. Alma Foley as secretary.
Is that you ?
(Docimient marked "Exhibit No. 404a, b," see appendix, pp. 7816,
7817.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Would you accommodate this committee that is seeking
to expose subversion in this country, would you acconmiodate it by
giving us your signature.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6609
(The witness confei-s with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline.
Mr. Arens. I didn't hear you.
Miss Hart. She answered. She declined.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her coimsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a copy of the lease between the
Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and a rental
agency, and the lease identifies the officer signing for the Minnesota
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born as Executive Secretary
Alma Foley.
Please look at that document and see if you can verify its authen-
ticity, and serve this committee of the Congress.
(Docmnent marked "Exhibit No. 405a^c," see appendix, pp. 7818-
7820.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. Will you repeat that question ?
Mr. Arens. Did you sign the docimient that is presently before
you ? This lease ? Is that your signature there as executive secretary
of the Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. ]VIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness affixes her signature to a voucher for her per diem
and transportation, that part of the voucher bearing her signature
be incorporated in the appendix to this record so that there may be a
comparison of signatures.
Mr. Frazier. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. In view of the status of this record, I respectfully
suggest that this witness, on this record here and now, be ordered to
produce all of the documents called for in the subpena duces tecum
which was served upon her, which I now respectfully request be in-
corporated in the appendix to the record.
(Documents marketd "Exhibit No. 40Ga, b," see appendix, pp. 7821,
7822.)
Mr. Fr.\ziek. It is so ordered.
And you are ordered to produce the records.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. There is no answer.
Miss Hart. You don't have to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to submit the records ?
Miss Hart. That was
All right.
She didn't understand that she was required to make an answer to
that.
Will 3'ou repeat what was said, please ?
Mr. Arens. The record shows an order and direction by the chair-
man of this subcommittee to the witness to produce the records called
for in the subpena duces tecum.
Miss Hart. She understands that now.
6610 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Do you produce them ? Will you produce them ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. The records asked for have no pertinence to the purpose
of this inquiry, and I decline to answer also on the first amendment
and on the fourth amendment and on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jackson". Have you made the determination that the papers
required in the subpena duces tecum have no relevancy to this hearing ?
Have you personally made that determination?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\Irs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. Were you advised by any person that they had no
relevancy to this hearing?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that.
IMr. Jackson. Did you confer with any pei-sons known to you to be
members of the Communist Party, arriving at that decision that the
papers required had no relevancy ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. Before we get oft' of this particular matter, unless
you intend to revert back to it, Mr. Counsel, I am going to ask that
the committee proceed in whatever lawful manner may be required
to bring this matter to the House of Representatives and ask appropri-
ate legal action be taken.
This is the second flaunting of the subpena powers of this com-
mittee, and it is quite obvious from the testimony already adduced
that there is a conspiracy existing between organizations and the
Communist Party to defeat the purposes of Federal legislation.
]Mr. Arens. We lay before you a photostatic copy of the Communist
Daily Worker of June 17, 1951, in which a photograph appears of a
number of people there honoring Ferdinand Smith and the midwest
victims of the McCarran law deportation hysteria.
People identified in this photograph include one Alma Foley.
Please look at that photograph and tell this Committee on Un-
American Activities if you will verify, please, the authenticity of
that designation.
(Document marked "P'xhibit No. 407," see appendix, p. 7823.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now we invite your attention to the summary of the
proceedings of the National Conference To Re])eal the Walter-McCar-
ran Law and Defend Its Victims, in Chicago, December 1953, and the
chairman of the credentials committee is Alma Foley of Minneapolis.
Please look at these proceedings and see if you can't help this com-
mittee of the Congress by verifying the authenticity of that desig-
nation.
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Miss Hart. What day is this?
Mr. Appell. The date of the conference.
(Counsel for the witness confers with Mr. Appell.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\Irs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
(See exhibit V, appendix, p. 8342.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6611
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you still another exhibit, an ex-
hibit of the Joint Defense Committee, Alma Foley, secretary. It is
a Joint Defense Committee, according to this publication or this leaf-
let, that is out to stop the deportations under the McCarran Act,
2290 County Road J. Minneapolis, Minn.
Please look at this document and tell us whether or not you are
appropriately and accurately identified as secretarj^ of the Joint De-
fense Committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 408." see appendix, pp. 7824,
7825.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a stool-pigeon publication. It is the
Communist Daily Worker which identifies you as a Communist. And
I want you to look at this now, and either condemn the Communist
Daily Worker for being a stool pigeon and falsely representing it, or
else invoking the fifth amendment.
Under date of April 7, 1934, the Communist Daily Worker talks
about a number of people who are candidates. In Duluth, Minn.,
Alma Foley, a Communist candidate for the school board, polled
619 votes.
Please look at that publication and see whether or not — tell
us wliether or not the Daily Worker was truthfully reporting the facts
when it identified you as the Communist candidate for the school
board in Minnesota.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 409," see appendix, p. 7826.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Was that Communist publication smearing you ? Was
that saying something that wasn't true about you ?
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now we have a pliotostatic copy of the Daily Worker
of January 1936, in which Alma Foley is identified as secretary of the
International Labor Defense.
Please look at this publication and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether or not you are accurately and truthfully identi-
fied as secretary of the Communist International Labor Defense.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 410," see appendix, p. 7826.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a telegram sent to Representative
Louis Graham, House Judiciary Committee :
We the undersigned strongly protest the railroading of unconstitutional legis-
lation outlawing the Comniunist Party —
and other representations, signed by a number of people, including an
Alma Foley from Minneapolis, Minn.
(Docvnnent marked "Exhibit No. 411," see appendix, p. 7827.)
Please tell the committee whether or not you are she.
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. You can help sustain the Constitution of the LTnited
States, ma'am, if you will toll us whether or not Andrew Roine,
R-o-i-n-e, is a cochairman of the Minnesota Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that.
6612 COJVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You can help us if you will tell us whether or not Lucille
Bartlett is another cochairman of the Minnesota Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. You could help us if you will tell us whether or not
Alma Erikson is treasurer of the Minnesota Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born.
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that j'ou are now a member of the Communist conspiratorial
apparatus. If it isn't true, deny it while under oath.
Mrs. Foley. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Any questions?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, the committee is in receipt of a
telegram addressed to the chairman of the subcommittee, which reads
as follows :
We protest your attack on Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. "We
feel your investigation is interference in the American democratic right of
people to seek redress against a law they feel is unfair. Many people seek
revision of unjust provisions of McCarran- Walter law.
It is signed "Women's Peace and Unity Club."
Investigation today has disclosed that the telegram in question was
purchased by a person giving the address 166 West Washington Street,
room 312.
It is significant that this is the office of the American Peace Crusade,
which has been cited by the Attorney General of the United States
and which has had a hearing before the Subversive Activities Control
Board.
I think this points up quite clearly the close linking and tieup be-
tween organizations which are working for the best interests of the
Soviet Union and not the United States of America.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. FRi\ziER. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. Lucille Bartlett, kindly come forward.
Please remain standing while the chairman administers the oath
to you.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be given at this hearing will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God ?
Mrs. Bartlett. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LUCILLE BARTLETT, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, CYRIL ROBINSON
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation?
Mrs. Bartlett. I am Lucille Bartlett, of St. Paul, Minn., housewife.
IVIr. Arens. Do you have any other occupation ?
Mrs. Bartlett. No, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6613
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
■was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activ-
ities ?
I\Irs. Babtlett. Yes, I have a subpena.
iMr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Bartlett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
]\Ir. Robinson. Cyril D. Robinson, 79 West Monroe, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs. Bartlett ?
Mrs. Bartlett. Mrs.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Bartlett, who was the lady who just left the wit-
ness stand ? Could you tell us ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I claim the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. AVliat do you mean you claim the fifth amendment ?
Mrs. Bartlett. That is my privilege.
Mr. Arens. "What do you mean by that ?
Mrs. Bartlett. I don't have to testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you told this committee truthfully
whether or not you know the woman who just left the witness stand —
Alma Foley — ^j'ou would be supplying information that might be
used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I have already answered the question.
]Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that last principal question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Airs. Bartle'1-t. I have already answered it, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest she again be
ordered and directed to answer that question. The question is de-
signed to test her good faith in the use and in>ocation of the fifth
amendment.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I say again I rely on the fifth amendment which
does not say that I have to testify against myself.
(The vv'itness confers with her counsel.)
■ Mrs. Bartlett. I say that in all good faith.
Mr. Arens. You said your occupation
Mr. Frazier. You decline to answer ?
IVIrs. Bartlett. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. You say your occupation is housewife ?
Mrs. Bartlett. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any other occupation?
Mrs. Bartleit. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs. BARTLETr. My fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are cochairman of the Minnesota Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, are you not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartletp. I rely on the fifth amendment, the same as bi'fore.
• Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I rely on the fifth amendment.
S.lSS.'J— 57— pt. 1 31
6614 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Velde. Are you a naturalized citizen ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I rely on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Were you born in the United States of America ?
Mrs. Bartlett. I already answered that question. I rely on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. I ask for a direction to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Velde. If you are a citizen of the United States, are you
ashamed of your citizenship ?
Mrs. Bartlett. I rely on the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Frazier. When you say you rely on the fifth amendment, what
do you mean by that?
Mrs. Bartlett. I don't have to testify against myself, and that is
stated in the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you read that constitutional provision ?
Mrs. Bartlett. Pardon?
Mr. Arens. Have you read that constitutional provision that you
are invoking?
Mrs. Bartlett. Yes.
Mr. Arens. The constitutional provision says you cannot be com-
pelled to give evidence or testimony against yourself in a criminal
proceeding, does it not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. That is what I would say.
Mr. AitENS. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
whether or not you are chairman of the Minnesota Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born you would be giving information that
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
(The witnes confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I am apprehensive in this present setting, and I
rely upon the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wlio told you that? Your lawyer just now gave you
those words ?
Mrs. Bartlett. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. You were the candidate for the city council there in
St. Paul on the Communist Part}^ ticket twice; were you not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I claim my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that concludes the staff interro-
gation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. As a candidate for city council, would you have to be a
citizen of the United States to run for that office ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I claim my privilege under the fifth amendment.
It is not pertinent to this inquiry, sir.
Mr, Jackson. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Bartlett. I claim my privilege of the fifth amendment, the
same as before.
Mr. Jackson. That is all.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
COIMIMIINIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6615
Mr. Arens. Alma Erikson, please come forward.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be given at this hearing will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Erikson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALMA ERIKSON; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
CYEIL EOBINSON
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Erikson. I am Alma Erikson, 612 East Franklin, Minneapolis,
Minn., a sausage maker.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mrs. Erikson. Sausage maker.
Mr, KoBiNSON. She makes sausage.
Mr. Arens. Do you do anything else ?
Mr. KoBiNSON. Could you specify that?
Mr. Arens. She knows what we are talking about. Counsel, and
you know what we are talking about. And your sole and exclusive
prerogatives are to advise your client with reference to her constitu-
tional rights.
Tell us what else you do besides make sausage.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. I would like that you specify what you mean.
Mr. Arens. Your lawyer just told you that.
Are you treasurer of the Minnesota Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. I claim my privilege under fifth amendment to not
testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Tell her. Counsel, slie can say "Yes" to that.
Why don't joii so we can get going ?
It gets a little exasperating.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have objection to the witness having the
benefit of counsel ?
Mr. Arens. We have objection to you telling her what to say.
Are you appearing today in response to a subpena served upon you
by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, Counsel.
Mr. EoBiNSON. Cyril D. Robinson, 79 West Monroe, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. How did you contact your counsel ?
Who told you to get in touch witli this man to represent you here?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
0616 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Erikson. I rely on the fifth amendment to not answer that
question.
Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you told this committee how you
happened to get in touch with this man, who represents you and repre-
sents Lucille Bartlett, you would be supplying information that could
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
IMrs. Erikson. Again I will invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. ^V}\o was tlie lady who just preceded you to the witness
stand ? Do you Imow her ? Lucille Bartlett ?
Mrs. Erikson. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to lay before you a telegram, a photostatic
<-opy of a telegram, addressed to the House Judiciary Conimittee, a
number of people protesting anti-Communist legislation, including
an Alma Erikron.
Look at this telegram and tell us whether or not you are she ?
(See exhibit No. 411, appendix, p. 7827.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mrs. Erikson. I claim the privilege under the fifth amendment to
not testify against myself.
Mr. Arens. How do you spell your name? Could you tell us the
spelling of the last name?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. E-r-i-k-s-o-n.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a document which is a photo-
static copy of a post card directed to the Director of Immigration in
Chicago, signed "Alma Erikson," protesting the unconstitutional
detention of Steve Tsermegas, T-s-e-r-m-e-g-a-s.
Look at that card and tell this committee whether or not you signed
it.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 412," see api^endix, p. 7828.)
(The witness examines document and confers witli her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. Again I will invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. As I said before, I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. I already said I invoke the fifth amendment.
. Mr. Arens. Were you born in the United States or born outside
of the United States?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. That is answered.
Mr. Arens. Then answer it again.
Mrs. Erikson. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairinan, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are ordered to answer the question.
(Tlie witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Eeikson. I claim the right of the fifth amendment to not
testify against myself.
CO^kOIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6617
Mr. Arens. Now we have a photostatic reproduction of the Com-
munist Daily Worker of July 1, 1953, specifying that a number of
people signed a protest to the Attorney General with reference to the
deportation proceedings against a certain Communist. Among those
who signed this protest is Alma Erickson.
Please look at that and see if you are accurately described in that
enterprise.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 413," see appendix, p. 7829.)
(The VA'itness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. I invoke the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Arexs. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Eriksox. I again invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. IMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staj3^ interrogation of the witness.
Mr. RoBixsoN. Counsel, does the record show
Excuse me.
I wasn't sure the record shows, on that last question, she invoked the
fifth amendment. Is that clear?
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogation of the witness.
Mr. Velde. In response to a question by counsel, you refused under
the protection of the fifth amendment to state whether you were a
United States citizen. Let me ask you this :
If you are a United States citizen, are you loyal to the United States,
or do you consider yourself to be loyal to the United States, or do you
consider yourself to be loyal to some foreign nation ?
(The witness confers Avith her counsel.)
Mrs. Erikson. In the present setting I want to invoke the fifth
am.endment for my own protection.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Jackson?
IVIr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arexs. Clarence Hathaway, kindly come forward.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be given at this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Hathaway. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CLAEENCE A. HATHAWAY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, PEARL M. HART
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Hatiiaw^vy. Clarence A. Hathaway, 1455 Fulhan Street, St.
Paul, Minn. Tool and die maker.
Mr. Arens. Where were j^ou born?
Mr. Hathaway. Oakdale Township, Washington County, Minn.
Mr. Arens. And tell us where you went to school.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I take the position that this is not material to the
investigation, and I invoke the first and fifth amendments.
6618 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be or-
dered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question,
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. With regard to the direction, I plead the fifth.
Mr. Frazier. I can't hear you. You will have to speak out.
Mr. Hathaway. I said I plead the fifth, not being required to
give testimony against myself.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been abroad ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I plead the fifth.
ISIr. Arens. You were trained in the Lenin School in Moscow, were
you not ?
Mr. Hathaway. The fifth.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or
deny the fact, that you were trained in the Lenin School in Moscow,
Russia.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer on the basis of the protection
guaranteed to me by the fifth amendment ; namely, not to give testi-
mony against myself.
Mr. Arens. How old are you ?
Mr. Hathaway. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Hathaway. I again invoke the fifth.
Mr. Arens. During the period of your adult life is there any oc-
cupation in which you have been gainfully employed concerning
which you can testify without giving evidence which could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth.
Mr. Arens. You were editor of the Communist Daily Worker for
a while, were you not ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Do you know John Lautner ?
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer on the basis of the protection
guaranteed me under the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Maybe I can help you.
Back in 1941, it is our information, you were dismissed from the
editorship of the Daily Worker, and actually were technically ex-
pelled from the Communist Party.
Is that true ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer
Mr. Arens. Do you regard it as humorous that you were expelled
from the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer that also.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Earl Browder ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6619
Mr, Hathaway. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. What is your brother's name ?
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer on the grounds tliat it is not
pertinent, that it is irrelevant, and also on the basis of the protection
guaranteed to me by the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Your brother is Milton Hathaway, is he not ?
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. I want to display to you a copy of the Communist
Daily Worker of May 25, 1947 :
Five Hundred and Fifty Union Officials Assail "Red Hunt"
Five hundred and fifty CIO and AFL union oflScials warned last vpeek that the
House un-Amerieans are spearheading the drive of big business against labor
"in the name of hunting Communists."
There is set forth the text of this statement attacking the Committee
on Un-American Activities, including a number of people who are
assailing the Committee on Un-American Activities, and including
Clarence A. Hathaway, business agent, St. Paul.
Look at that exhibit and tell this committee whether or not you are
the Clarence Hathaway alluded to in the article.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 414," retained in committee files.)
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point. )
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now, I display to you an article from the Daily Worker,
January 22, 1941, to the effect that Hathaway says his expulsion
by Communists was justifiable — all because of certain political dis-
agreements. In other words, Hathaway says that when the Com-
munist Party kicked me out, when they kicked out Earl Browder and
had to have some scapegoats to change the party line, the party was
justified.
Look at this article now and tell this Committee on Un-American
Activities whether or not that correctly quotes you when you said that
the Communist Party technically expelled you from membership and
it was justified.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 415," see appendix, p. 7830.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. This, in my opinion, is impertinent, irrelevant,
and I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Your brother Milton Hathaway procured a United
States passport sometime ago and then sent the passport to you for
use ; did he not ?
Mr. IL\TiiAWAY. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now I disphiy to you a photostatic copy of an article
which appeared in the Daily Worker of February 16, 1951.
"Minn. Meeting Pledges 100,000 Peace Ballots^'— "Minnesotans For
Peace."
6620 COIMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
And Clarence A. Hathaway is making the keynote address.
Look at this article and tell us whether or not it accurately and
truthfully portrays your part in that Minnesota rally for peace.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 416," see appendix, p. 7831.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. This document is not relevant.
Mr. Arens. And tell us whether it is true or not.
Mr. Hathaway. And I invoke the fifth.
Mr. Arexs. Now we have a bulletin of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, an original document of February
1, 1954. Clarence Hathaway is making a speech concerning his
wife's deportation case, and urging the Congressmen to seek public
Clearings on legislation pertaining to immigration matters.
Look at that document and tell us whether or not you are accurately
quoted here.
^Document marked "Exhibit No. 417," see appendix, p. 7832.)
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
]\Ir. Hathaway. Not relevant. Moreover, I refuse to answer on
the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is your wife presently the subject of deportation pro-
ceedings ?
Mr. Hathaway. Not relevant, and I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Look at this document, an original article from the
New York Times of January 13, 1941 :
Communists Expel Hathaway, Editor
One of the party's three leaders headed the Daily Worker staff for 10 years.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 418," see appendix, pp. 7833,
7834.)
That was back in 1941. "Was your connection with the Communist
Party actually, legitimately, bona fidely, forever severed back in 1941 ?
If it was, you ought to be proud of it and stand up and tell this
committee while you are under oath, "Sure, I had my connections sev-
ered with the Communist Party in 1941 and now I am a great patriot."
Do you want to tell us about that ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. I think it is not relevant, and I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. I want to read you a little testimony now from a stool
pigeon, according to the lingo we have been hearing here the last
several days. It is testimony in public hearings of Earl Browder.
You know who he was, of course.
Browder is asked here :
Did Mr. Clarence Hathaway, the editor of the Daily Worker, attend the Lenin
School?
Mr. Browder said :
Hathaway did, I believe.
Was Browder lying or was Browder telling the truth when he testi-
fied that you attended the Lenin School in Moscow ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hathaway. The question is irrelevant, and I refuse to answer
on the basis of the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Did you join the Communist Party initially for the pur-
pose of spying on the party ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6621
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment, notwithstanding the record
and your expulsion from the Communist Party, now a Communist?
Mr. Hathaway. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mr. Hathaway. Because I invoke my rights under the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Velde, any questions ?
Mr, Velde. No questions except I think, as Mr. Jackson said, that
the record should note that the witness has answered several tunes, or
refused to answer, on the grounds that the question was irrelevant to
the work of this committee.
Certainly any question concerning the Communist conspiracy is
relevant to the work of this committee.
This committee is organized to investigate un-American activities
and report to the Congi"ess for remedial legislation. Certainly any
q^uestion dealing with the Communist apparatus is a relevant ques-
tion and should be answered by the witness if he has any degree what-
soever of patriotism to his country.
Mr. Hathaway. After listening to the proceedings here today
Mr. Velde. There is no question pending.
Mr. H^iTHAWAY. I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot of
irrelevancy that has been admitted.
Mr. Velde. There is no question.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, will be John Starks.
Mr. Starks, will you kindly come forward.
Mr. Frazier. Hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony to be given at this hearing will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Starks. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. STAEKS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
PEAEL M. HAET
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Starks. My name is John R. Starks. My residence is St. Louis,
Mo. I reside at 5003 Maple. And by occupation, I am a railroad
worker.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Starks, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Starks. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Starks. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Miss IL\RT. Pearl M. Hart, 30 North La Salle Street, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Arens. This subpena, which was served upon you, commands
you to produce before this committee, Mr. Starks, a number of docu-
6622 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
merits relating to the Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran
Law and the Defense of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Do you have those documents today ?
Mr.'STARKS. I have not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you liave custody and control over those documents?
Mr. Starks. I have not.
Mr. Arens. "Where are the documents called for in the subpena
duces tecum?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I do not know where they are, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have access to those documents?
JNIr. Starks. I believe you asked that question before, sir.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Starks. Well, my answer is the same. I do not have access to
the documents you mentioned.
IVIr. Arens. Do you know where they are ?
]\Ir. Starks. I do not know where they are.
Mr. Arens. Are there such documents to your knowledge?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
]\Ir. Arens. Are you secretary of the Committee for Repeal of the
Walter-McCarran Law and the Defense of Sam and Fanny Manewitz?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I am not, sir. x
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a photostatic copy of an applica-
tion for a post-office box. It is signed by John R. Starks, secretary
of the Sam and Fanny Manewitz Defense Committee.
Look p*t that signature and see if you can help this committee by
telling us whether or not that is a true and correct reproduction of
your signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 419," see appendix, p. 7835.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. Will you repeat your question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Is that your signature to the document just displayed
to you?
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
first amendment, giving me the right of freedom of speech and asso-
ciation.
I also refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a document issued by the Com-
mittee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law and Defense of Sam
and Fanny Manewitz, Post Office Box 506, Wellston Station, St. Louis,
Mo., which is the same post-office box that appears on this application
which we have just displayed to you, and I ask you if the publication
which I have just displayed to you accurately describes the publication
or organization of which you are the secretary or were the secretary.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 4:20a-c," see appendix, pp. 7836-
7838.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6623
Mr. Staeks. Sir, will you explain that question. You have not
yet established that I am secretary. And it is not quite clear to
me, your question.
Mr. Arens. Are you secretary of the organization which pub-
lished that document that your counsel now has her left hand on ?
Mr. Starks. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been secretary of it ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever resigned from being secretary ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously men-
tioned.
Mr. Arens. Were you secretary when this publication was issued ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. The same grounds as previously mentioned, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now we invite your attention to copies of a form of
the Post Office Department, verification of residence of applicant
for box.
You will note that one of the photostats there is signed by Sol
Derman. You will note that he responded to the Post Office Depart-
ment with respect to you: "Yes, applicant is respectable and trust-
worthy."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 421a, b," see appendix, pp. 7839,
7840.)
Did you know Sol Derman ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer, sir, on the basis of the first amend-
ment giving me freedom of speech and association and identifying
anyone. And I also refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. In view of the status of the record, I respectfully
suggest that a copy of the subpena duces tecum be incorporated in
the record and the witness now be ordered to produce the records and
documents called for in the subpena duces tecum.
Mr. Frazier. It is so ordered, and the witness is directed to produce
the documents called for in the subpena duces tecum.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 422a, b," see appendix, pp. 7841,
7842.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I am not secretary, sir, of the committee mentioned
on that subpena. Therefore, I can produce no records of any kind
as noted on that subpena.
Mr. Arens. Do you have the records of the organization
Mr. Starks. Sir, I am not finished yet.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead. We want you to talk. We want
you to talk freely.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Miss Hart. May I have that exhibit again, please ?
Mr. Appell. This one ?
Miss Hart. No. The one for the post office.
(Document handed to counsel for the witness.)
Mr. Starks. I would like to call attention, sir, to this document or
exhibit here. The date is the year 1954, October 6, 1954.
6624 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Jackson. "What does that indicate? What is the significance
of your pointing that out?
(The witness confers witli his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Jackson. It must not be very important then.
May I ask one question, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Frazier. Yes. Proceed, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. After you received your subpena to appear here, did
you turn over to any other person any material called for in the
subpena ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer, sir.
Mr. Velde. Are you through?
Mr. Jackson. Yes.
Mr. Velde. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Frazier. Proceed.
Mr. Velde. You said you were no longer secretary of this organi-
zation. Is that true ?
Mr. Starks. That is true ; yes.
Mr. Velde. When were you last secretary of the organization?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Velde. Were you secretary 3^esterday of the oi'ganization ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Velde. Somewhere between yesterday and today you decided
not to become secretary of the organization so you would not have to
answer the subpena duces tecum. Is that not correct ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Arens. Now we display to you, if you please, sir, a document
which is an original document : "Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law,"
issued by the Committee To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and
Stop Deportation of Sam and Fanny Manewitz, post-office box 506,
Wellston Station, St. Louis, Mo., May 1956.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 423a, b," see appendix, pp. 7843,
7844.)
Did you prepare this document ?
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Miss Hart. May I see it, please ?
Mr. Arens. Now we show 5'ou a photostatic copy of a document:
Urgent Call To Attend the Midwest Conference To Uphold the Con-
stitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights and Repeal the
McCarran Act. Those three things go together : uphold the Bill of
Rights, repeal the McCarran Act, and the Constitution, all to be held
November 25 and 26 (1950) . And among those who are the sponsors
of this urgent call is John R. Starks, executive secretary of the Civil
Rights Congress of St. Louis.
Look at that document and see if you can't help this Committee on
Un-American Activities trying to preserve the Constitution against
the Communist termites by telling us whether or not that is yon.
(See exhibit No. 225, appendix, p. 7484.)
(The witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6625
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arexs. You have been an author in the course of the last few
years, have you not, writing for the Contemporary Reader?
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Well, now, we have a copy of the Daily "Worker of
May 3, 1953, and, if you will pardon the Communist jargon, perhaps
it is being a stool pigeon again here, because the Coimnunist Daily
Worker of tliis date tells about a new publication — the Contemporary
Reader, a new quarterly magazine. And among the contributors to
this new publication is John R. Starks.
Look at this document and see if you are accurately identified
there.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. "Why ?
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest tlie witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Starks. I decline to ansvrer that question on the basis of the
first amendment which guarantees me the riglit for freedom of press,
speech, and association.
I also refuse to answer o]i the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now^ I want to invite yom- attention to still another
article. I want to ask you a few questions about what the Communist
Daily W^orker says about you. Maybe the Daily Worker isn't right,
and I wan't to check with you on it.
The Communist Daily Worker of May 3, 1953, in the article about
the Contemporary Reader, says :
Its first issue has the promise of its credo. * * * it is heartening to see such
writers as John R. StarlvS, as an example, 33, a railroader and a member of the
Brotherhood of Railway Carmen, a native of Illinois who spent 5 years in the
Army and has the Purple Heart for wounds received as an infantry soldier in
France. This is his first published short story.
He appears in these pages with such writers as Abraham Polonsky, Lester
Cole, Alan Max, Martha Millet, and Millard Lanipell.
Tell us a little about yourself. Were you, in 1953, 33 years of age?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 424," see appendix, pp. 7845,
7846.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. In 1953 were you a railroader ?
Mr. Starks. I decline to answ^er.
Mr. Arens. The fact is you are right now in a Communist cell of
the Railroad Carmen; are you not?
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Wliy?
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mv. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Starks. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
first and fifth amendments to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of William Cortor,
C-o-r-t-o-r?
6626 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. "VVliy?
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Could that be because Cortor testified under oath before
this committee respecting certain people he knew to be Communists?
That 3'ou just don't want to talk about Cortor?
Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Frazier. Any questions, Mr. Velde?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
]\Ir. Fr^vzier. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Arens. We have no more witnesses under subpena for the ses-
sions here in Chicago.
There were two other witnesses who were under subpena but they
have been canceled because of illness.
Mr. Frazier. Before we conclude these hearings in Chicago, I would
like to comment briefly on several of the things which have emerged
from the testimony today and yesterday which we consider of par-
ticular importance.
The evidence that the committee has received during these hearings
provides further confirmation of the fact that the Communist Party
of the United States, through a variety of various agencies, is engaged
in a broad program of infiltration and propaganda aimed at divesting
this Nation of the security laws designed to safeguard it against alien
attck from inside and outside its borders.
We have noted the evasiveness of many witnesses who have appeared
and their refusal to speak freely when under oath about the nature
of activities they are engaged in. And, on the other hand, we have
placed into the record of the committee a vast array of exhibits which
speak eloquently about those activities which they seek to veil in
silence when called before us.
Certainly no one can contest the right of legitimate organizations
and sincere individuals to participate in free discussion of the laws
which govern them.
But free discussion and genuine protests are entirely different from
the operation of the conspiracy which seeks to convert honest concern
for democratic procedures to an instrument of subversion. And it is
subversion that we have to deal with here.
The witnesses before us from such groups as the Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, the Midwest Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, and the INIinnesota and St. Louis
Committees for Protection of Foreign Born have no true interest in
the welfare of minority and nationality groups. Their sole interest
is to exploit these groups for the benefit of world communism; to
divide and confuse the ]3eople of this area and the people of the country
as a w^hole so that their stealthy advance may proceed without
opposition.
I think it is clear to all who have attended these hearings and fol-
lowed the proceedings that organizations like the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born and its accessories in this area have
forfeited any claim to a legitimate status.
commujstist political subversion 6627
The result of these hearings provides conclusive proof that these
organizations and the individuals who continue to participate in them
in full knowledge of their purpose must stand identified as the
enemies, and not the friends, of the very people whom they profess to
be helping. Their sole objective is to enable the Communist conspir-
acy in the United States to function without disturbance and to make
the United States a haven for conspirators engaged in plotting its
ultimate destruction.
I would like now to express the appreciation of the subcommittee
for the untiring cooperation of various people who have helped make
arrangements for these proceedings :
The Honorable William J. Campbell, United States district judge;
United States Marshal William W. Kipp; Building Superintendent
Frank C. Allen; and the Chicago Police Department, particularly
those detectives charged with protecting this city from subversive
elements.
Do you have a statement you would like to make, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. Just a few remarks, Mr. Chairman, if I may.
First of all, let me have the privilege of joining with you in that
very fine statement, and to commend you on the fair and impartial
manner in which you have chaired this meeting.
I wish, also, to express my joy at being with my colleagues, Don
Jackson of California and Gordon Scherer, of Ohio, for these very
important and enlightening hearings.
As you know, I have chosen not to run for reelection this time,
and I will not be with you again.
I want to say I hope you continue carrying the torch in a never-
ending battle against communism and subversion against this Govern-
ment.
I would like to say, too, that I believe our vf^^-y able and efficient
staff, Mr. Arens, Mr. Appell, and Mr. Weil, des. rve a word of com-
mendation for the very intelligent, logical manner in which they
have handled the investigation and the witnesses on the witness stand
during this hearing.
Thank you.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Velde, we appreciate your remarks. And I wish
to take this occasion, since I am not going to California with you, to
say that we members who have had the honor of serving with you on
this committee appreciate the great work you have done in furthering
the various investigations that this committee has undertaken. We
will miss you in the next Congress.
Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I join with both of you in the general statements that have been
made.
I also should like to pay a special word of tribute to Mr. Velde who
is not returning to Congress. And I wish him well for the valuable
public service he has rendered the country while chairman of this
committee. We shall miss him on the committee.
Also an additional word to the staff.
6628 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Actually the reason some of these people take tlie fifth amendment
when they get in the chair is because they know that, through careful
staff work, the facts are there. The facts cannot be refuted.
Congratulations, Mr. Arens and Mr. Appell and others on the staff.
And also the hard-working reporter whose fingers must be cramped
by this time.
Mr. Frazier. That concludes the hearings.
The committee is recessed.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 35 p. m., December 4, the committee was recessed,
to be reconvened at 10 a. m., in room 514, Federal Building, Los
Angeles, Calif., on Wednesday, December 5, 1956.)
( Committee members present : Representatives Frazier, Velde, and
Jackson.)
AMERICAN COMMITTEE FOR PROTECTION OF FOREIGN BORN
1. Cited as subversive and Communist.
{Attorney General Tom Glarh^ letters to Loyalty Review
Board^ released June 7, 191^8^ and September 21^ 19I}.8.)
2. "One of the oldest auxiliaries of the Communist Party in the United
States."
{Special Committee on Un- American Activities^ Report^
March 29^ 19It4^ p. 155; also cited in Report^ June 25, 194-2,
P-^^') . . . • . . .
3. "Among the Communist- front organizations for racial agitation"
which also serve as "money-collecting media" and "as special
political organizing centers for the racial minority they pretend
to champion." "Works closely with the International Labor
Defense, legal arm of the Communist Party, in defense of for-
eign-born Communists and sympathizers."
{California Committee on Un-American Activities, Reports,
194.7, p. 4S; 1948, p. 113.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 : 20 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 514, Post Office Building, Los
Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
fornia ; Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff member present : William A. Wheeler, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will come to order.
By virtue of the designation by Chairman Francis E. Walter, of
the Committee on Un-American .Vctivities, the subcommittee consist-
ing of Mr. Velde, of Illinois, Mr. Scherer, of Ohio, and Mr. Doyle, of
California, as subcommittee chairman, is called to order. A quorum
is present. Subcommittee Chairman Doyle and Representative
Scherer. The subcommittee hearings for this morning are of neces-
sity continued until tomorroAv morning at 10 a. m., Thursday, Decem-
ber 6, 1956. All persons in the room who have been subpenaed for
today are directed to return tomorrow. We regret any inconvenience
caused to any witness because of the continuance of the subpenas but
the committee has also caused inconvenience to itself by reason of
postponement. Without further direction or proceeding the subcom-
mittee stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 a. m. All
persons present subpenaed for today are directed and ordered to
appear tomorrow.
Mr. Scherer. May I suggest that all persons who have been sub-
penaed for today wlio are not present in the hearing room also be
directed to appear in the hearing room at 10 a. m. tomorrow.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, that is correct. All persons subpenaed for today
who do not happen to be present at this meeting are also ordered anci
directed to appear tomorrow at 10 a. m.
85333— 57— pt. 1 32 6629
C03IMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 6, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
PUBLIC hearing
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, in room 514, Federal Build-
ing, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcom-
mittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, Harold
H, Velde, and Gordon H. Scherer.
Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
Whieeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators ; and Richard S. Weil,
staff member.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will please come to order.
This morning this subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American
Activities, composed of Representatives Velde, of Illinois, Scherer,
of Ohio, and myself, Clyde Doyle, as chairman, begins hearings on the
problem of Communist political subversion in this area.
These hearings are part of a series which the Committee on Un-
American Activities has conducted in Washington, D. C, Youngs-
town, Ohio, and Chicago, 111., and will continue in other cities.
By "political subversion" we mean the attempts of the Communist
Party and its confederate organizations to destroy the security pro-
gram of the United States Government.
In the hearings of this committee thus far held we have received an
appalling picture of a campaign, under the direction of the Soviet
Union, by the Communist Party in the United States, to rob our
Nation of its defenses against ultimate annihilation by an alien con-
spiracy acting in defiance and contempt of the United States Con-
stitution.
We have received a vast quantity of evidence of the techniques of
infiltration and propaganda activities by which the Communist Party
enlists sincere and well-meaning citizens to accomplish this illicit pur-
pose of the Communist Party and its subversive groups.
I would like to emphasize that these hearings are not intended to
deal with the merit or lack of merit of any particular Federal law.
We are not here to participate in legislative controversy.
Our sole purpose is to examine Communist activities directed against
these Federal laws.
No one contests the right of legitimate organizations and sincere in-
dividuals to participate in free discussion of the laws which govern
them, and to petition their United States Congress.
6631
6632 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
But free discussion and genuine protest are entirely different from
the operation of a conspiratorial apparatus which seeks to pervert
honest interest and democratic procedures into an instrument of secret,,
illegal subvert i(m.
And, bluntly speaking, it is subversion we are called upon to deal
with toda}' .
The testimony before the committee in this series of hearins^s has
already established the fact that the Communist Party in the United
States has created literally hundreds of separate front organizations
to serve it in its current campaign of illegal subversion.
One of the primary objectives of this campaign by the Communist
Party and its confederates is to strip our immigration and nationality
laws of the provisions which make possible the deportation of alien
Communist agents who, by fraudulent means, have obtained residence
in the United States.
One of the most powerful of these agencies of the Communist Party
in the United States is the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, which has accessory organizations in this immediate
geographic area and throughout the United States.
The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which
we will examine in detail during these hearings startino- this morninsr,.
1 1 -1-1 ^ *-"
has long ranked as one of the major adjuncts of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and, in turn, of the Communist
Party itself.
In addition to the activities directed against the security provisions
of the immigration laws we also plan to inquire into the coordinated
efforts of the Communist Party against otlier basic anti-Communist
legislation such as is contained in the Smith Act, Internal Security
Act, and the Communist Control Act.
At this time I would like to point out that the Committee on Un-
American Activities was first created as a regular standing committee
by the 79th session of Congress in 1946, and has been reestablished by
every session of Congress since then. Its powers and duties are set
forth in Public Law 601 of the 79th Congress.
The full committee consists of nine members. And Public Law 601
of the 79th Congress expressly authorizes the creation of subcom-
mittees such as is here this morning.
The committee established its own rules of procedure, which are
printed, and each witness or legal counsel appearing before the com-
mittee receives a copy thereof.
We hope that, as a result of these hearings, the Committee on Un-
American Activities will be able to consider legislative recommenda-
tions of further aid to the Government in combating the Communist
conspiratorial subversive apparatus. And we hope, beyond this, that
the information obtained here will serve further to alert the people
of this geographical area and of the United States to the menace of
the conspiratorial operation which still contrives to flourish among^
them.
I wish to state that this subcommittee was duly appointed by the
chairman of the full committee. — Francis E. Walter — ^by authority
given him under Public Law 601.
The full subcommittee being present, the committee will proceed
with its hearings. But, before we do this, may I say that we are in a
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6633
United States Federal building. This is a subcommittee of the United
States Congress. We shall expect the utmost cooperation of every
person in this room during the committee proceedings. If my ex-
pectations are not met by any person in this room that person will be
promptly removed from the room by the United States marshal.
Are you ready, Mr. Arens ^
Mr. Arens. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, before calling the first witness, may this record re-
flect a general order from the chairman tliat each of the many exhibits
which we expect to use during the course of these hearings be appropri-
ately marked and incorporated, either by reference or in the body of
the record or in the appendix, as the case may be.
If the chairman gives us that general order it will save consider-
able time.
Mr. Doym:. "Without objection, it is so ordered.
May I state, for the benefit of the record and those present, that
Mr. Arens is the director of our committee and also our legal counsel.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. The first witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Del-
phine Murphy Smith.
Kindly come forward.
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. DoTLE. Will you please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Smith. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DELPHINE MUEPHY SMITH; ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. MUREISH
Mr. Doyle. Will you please be seated.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Smith. My name is Delphine Murphy Smith, ^ly residence is
1650 McCollom Place, Los Angeles. I am a machinist.
Mr. Arens. And where are you employed, please ?
Mrs. Smith. Where am I employed ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Smith. I was subpenaed on the job, and that is 6500 South
Avalon.
Mr. Arens. And you are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities ?
Mrs. Smith. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Smith. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself for the
record.
Mr. MuRRisii. William B. Murrish, M-u-r-r-i-s-h, Los Angeles bar.
Mr. Arens. Are you Mrs. Smith or Miss Smith ?
Mrs. Smith. Mrs.
6634 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. How long have you lived in the Los Angeles area ?
Mrs. Smith. Right in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Arexs. In the environs of Los Angeles.
Mrs. Smith. The environs of Los Angeles. About 35 years. Not
in Los Angeles city.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been executive secretary for the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Smith. I believe I am going to have to refuse to answer that
question, and I will state my reason for it, that, by asking me that,
you are inquiring into my thoughts and associations.
Therefore, I am going to have to refuse to answer it on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully whether or not you have ever been executive secre-
tary for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
you would be supplying information which might be used against you
in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Smith. I didn't intend to debate the matter. I merely stated
that I refuse to answer it on the grounds of the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the last outstanding and principal
question.
Mr. DoTLE. We believe it is an appropriate question, and I direct
you to answer the same.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Smith. You say you require that I answer that ?
Mr. Doyle. I have instructed you. We believe it is an appropriate
question, and you are instructed to answer the question.
Mrs. Smith. I have refused to answer it on constitutional grounds.
I stated the grounds :
The first amendment, which safeguards freedom of speech, which
I am defending in this, and the fifth amendment, which protects people
from testifying against themselves. I feel that this is an abrogation
of my constitutional rights by demanding that I answer such a ques-
tion. Beyond that, as I said before, I don't intend to debate it any
further.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the witness doesn't under-
stand the import of Mr. Arens' question and the decisions of the court
with reference thereto.
You have a perfect right, as you did, to invoke the fifth amendment
to the first question you answered with reference to your secretaryship
or former secretaryship of the Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. But then Mr. Arens asked you the question whether or not
you honestly believed that to answer that question might tend or lead
to a possible criminal prosecution.
Now the courts have said that he has a right to ask you that, to test
your good faith in invoking the fifth amendment.
And then you must answer that question "yes" or "no," namely,
that you do honestly believe, in invoking the fifth amendment, you
may be subject to a possible criminal prosecution.
Mr. MuRRisii. Mr. Chairman, counsel will state for the witness that
the Supreme Court has several times said the fifth amendment is
COMAIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6635
for the protection of all the people, the innocent as well as the guilty.
And it is intimately related to the first amendment and to prosecutions
under tyrannical or unjust as well as valid prosecutions. It is ob-
vious
Mr. Velde. Our policy is not to allow the attorney to tell the law
to the committee.
Mr. MuRKisH. I am attempting to tell counsel.
Mr. Velde. You are allowed to advise your client of her rights.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. It is obvious that counsel for the witness doesn't
understand what I am trying to say.
I merely made the explanation because if she does not answer that
question the witness is advised that she subjects herself to possible
contempt.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Smith. Wlien I stated my position on this I stated it clearly.
I think I did, and I meant to state it clearly. I stand on my consti-
tutional grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
I understood the question placed to me. I don't intend to debate it
further with anyone present.
I don't think there is anything more I can say about it-
Mr. ScHERER. We have complied with the court's decisions.
Mrs. Smith. I also adopt what my counsel said as a part of my
position.
Mr. DoYLE. It is your testimony we w^ant; not your counsel's. He
is not a witness before this committee. He has a perfect right to
advise you at all times as to your legal rights, and we don't object.
We are glad to have counsel present. But, for the benefit of this
counsel and all counsel present in the room, may I make it clear that
from this time on I will not permit counsel to take the time of the
committee to argue with us.
We are very sorry, but we do not have the time.
Mr. McRRisii. May counsel ask a question on your instructions?
Mr. DoYL,E. No.
Mr. JiluRRiSH. If a question of law arises may counsel undertake
to state the law ?
Mr. DoTLE. No, counsel, please. Under the printed rules of this
committee with which you are familiar, and the policy of the com-
mittee we have no time to permit counsel to argue with us. We would
like to have that time, but we do not have it.
May I make it clear to all counsel in this room and to you, sir, that
we will not hereafter take any time to allow counsel to argue with
us on points of law or anything else because we just do not have the
time to do it.
Please let's proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Now, there will be shortly exhibited to you by Mr.
Wheeler of this staff a photostatic copy of a signature card which this
committee has subpenaed from the California Bank, Los Angeles,
Calif. It is a signature card for the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. It is signed Delphine Murphy Smith,
executive secretary. It is dated November 6, 1950.
6636 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly look at that card and tell this committee whether or not
that is a true and correct reproduction of your signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 425a," see appendix, p. 7847.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. AuExs. Would you kindly answer the question ?
Mrs. Smith. What was your question?
Mr. Ahens. The question is: Does the document which was just
displayed to you by Mr. Wheeler, a photostatic copy of the signature
card for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
on file at the California Bank, Los Angeles, Calif., bear a true and
correct signature of yourself as executive secretary of this Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Smith. I am going to take the position on that that I took
previously. I feel that to answer any question for this committee
would be not only a violation of my constitutional rights hut it would
be an abrogation of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, which safe-
guards all people to answer any question that this committee puts
before me as a violation of any constitutional grounds that I might
mention here. It is a violation of all constitutional rights.
As a matter of fact, I challenge the right of this committee to ask
me this or any other question. Tlierefore, I am refusing to answer
this on the grounds that I previously stated, the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. You probably will observe, if you haven't already ob-
served, Mrs. Smith, that the account card for the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which we have just dis-
played to you, shows, among other things, the following :
Account formerly with Civil Rights Congress.
Did you notice that on the card as it was displayed to you a
moment ago ?
Mrs. Smith. As I said previously, I don't intend to debate the
merits of that card, whether it is true or false, or debate any of these
issues before the committee. I am stating my position again. I have
stated .it clearly.
Mr. Arexs. The record will, of course, reflect, as the card is em-
bodied in the record, that the account was formerly with the Civil
Rights Congress, according to this card.
Now, Mr. ("Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and when
this witness signs a voucher for the purpose of procuring an alloca-
tion of per diem and travel expenses for appearance today, that part
of the voucher which bears her signature be incorporated in this
record. And I say so for the reason that it would then be available for
comparison of signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 425b," see appendix p. 7848.)
Mr. Doyle. Without objection, it will be so ordered.
Mr. MuRRisH. Counsel objects to that. May Counsel object?
Counsel objects to that.
Mr. Doyle. No, no.
Mr. MuRRiSH. You said without objection.
Mrs. Smith. I object. The witness objects.
COMJMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6637
Mr. ]SIuKRiSH. And may I respectfully ask the chairman to instruct
me? Because he said \vithout objection. And I don't want the record
to reflect that I did not object.
Mr. Doyle. Noay, Counsel, I made it crystal clear to you that you
were not to address the committee except through your client.
Mrs. Smith. May I state, Mr. Chairman
]\Ir. Doyle. This is not a court proceeding.
Mr. IMuRRiSTi. iMay I not object?
Mr. Doyle. That should be enough. We are all lawyers.
Mr. IMuRKTSii. And I may not.
Mr. Doyle. Every member of this subcommittee is a lawyer of
many years of practice. We understand your situation. But the
rules of the committee do not permit you as a lawyer to make objections
on legal grounds.
Mr. MuRRisH. Then when you say no objection you mean by the
committee.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. MuRRiSH. And not by counsel.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. MuRRiSH. May that be clear? Because I don't want to ac-
quiesce in what I would not agree to.
Mr. Doyle. We are asking you to acquiesce in the rules of the com-
mittee.
Mr. MuRRiSH. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. And you are witliin your right if you do that.
Mr. MuRRisH. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. ^Vlieeler is going to display to you a photo-
static reproduction of The Lamp, published by the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, dated January 1950. And in
this publication of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born we observe, among other things, the following :
A Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was established on
November 29 at a citywicle conference of organizations. More than 20 nonciti-
zens, residents of Los Angeles, face deportation. The committee's first task
centers around the fight to prevent arbitrary increases iu bail.
Kindly look at this exhibit, if you please, and tell the Committee on
Un-American Activities while you are presently under oath whether
or not that recitation of the facts is, to your certain knowledge, true
and correct.
(See exhibit No. 14, appendix, p. 7111.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mrs. SsnTH. I am going to decline to answer that question on the
same grounds as I previously stated, the first and fifth amendments to
the Constitution.
Mr. Arens, ]\Ir. Wlieeler is going to display to you still another
document. It is a brief history of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born which has, in the normal course of the
activities of this Committee on Un-American Activities, come into its
custody and control.
Will j^ou kindly display that to the witness, please, Mr. Wheeler?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 426," see appendix, pp. 7849-
7851.)
6638 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Akens. You will observe that in this brief history of the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born there appears,
among other things, the following :
Its—
that is the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born —
prior history was as a subcommittee of political deportees within the Civil
Rights Congress.
Kindly tell the Committee on Un-American Activities whether that
statement, to your certain knowledge, is a true and correct presentation
of the facts.
Mrs. Smith. I would like to state that I don't intend to answer that
question. The reason I don't intend to answer it is that I deny that
this committee has the right to ask m.e any such question pertaining to
my thoughts, my ideas, or my associations.
Therefore, I "take the same stand that I have taken before.
If you ask me a thousand questions you will get a thousand an-
swers the same as I have given you.
Mr. ScHERER. No matter what the questions are ?
Mrs. Smith. Pertaining to any abrogation of the Bill of Rights
and my rights under the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wlieeler is going to display to you another docu-
ment which is a photostatic copy of a carbon copy of a letter purport-
edly from the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom,
dated October 27, 1950, addressed to Mr. Abner Green in New York
City.
"Dear Abner" and so forth, and signed "Delphine Smith, executive
secretary."
Kindly look at that document and tell this committee whether or
not it presents a true and correct designation of yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 427," see api)endix, p. 7852.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ?
Mrs. Smith. As I stated before, I refuse to answer that question
on the same grounds.
And, in addition, to the committee, I deny that this committee has
the right to ask me any such questions, the questions what I do, whom
I associate with, what I think, or what ideas I have.
Therefore, I stand on the same constitutional grounds, the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. "VVheeler will display to you a photostatic copy
of the Daily People's World of November 24, 1950, containing a
letter to the editor, signed "Delphine Murphy Smith, executive sec-
retary, Committee for Protection of Foreign Born."
Tlie letter is with reference to certain activities of the Los Angeles
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at that exhibit, if you please, ma'am, and tell the com-
mittee whether or not that is a true and correct reproduction of a
letter which you sent to the Daily People's World.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 428," see appendix, p. 7853.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arkns. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mrs. Smith. I feel compelled to refuse to answer that question.
It is a tradition in the United States that people write letters to
editors. They have a right to write them.
COMROJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6639
And anything that you might produce there as a photostatic copy
of this or that, whatever it might be — anyone who writes a letter has
a riglit to write it.
Mr. Arens. Did you write the letter, is all we are asking.
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that for the reasons, same reasons,
I have stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. '\^'lieeler will exhibit another document to you, a
reproduction of a letter of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, an appeal for money, signed "Delphine M. Smith,
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 429," see appendix, p. 7854.)
While he is in the process of physically transporting this document
for your perusal tell the committee whether or not you have registered
under the Lobbying Act of the United States Congress.
Mrs. Smith. Lobbying Act of the United States Congress?
Mr. Arexs. Yes. Have j^ou ever registered under the Lobbying
Act?
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest that this witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question. It is a matter of public record.
Mr. Dotle. It is surely an appropriate question, and I instruct
the witness to answer.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Smith. If this is a matter of public record, then you know it.
If it is not a matter of public record, then you have no right to
request it.
Therefore, I decline to answer on the same grounds.
As I said before, no matter how many questions you place to me
that are in abrogation of my rights under the Constitution, I will
refuse to answer as man 3^ questions.
Mr. Scherer. You mean this committee doesn't have the right to
ask you whether you are a registered lobbyist ?
Do you really mean that ? Do you feel that would incriminate you
to answer that question ?
Mrs. Smith. As I stated, I decline to answer under the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Smith. And, as I said, I deny to you that you have the right
to ask me such a question.
^Ir. Scherer. All right. This member of the committee feels that
your refusal to answer that question places you in contempt. Just so
you may understand.
Mrs. Smith. If you place me in contempt, this is not my difficulty ; it
is not my thought. I have refused to answer on constitutional grounds
those things which I felt were an abrogation of my rights under the
Constitution.
Mr. Scherer. It is our duty to advise you how we feel when you
fail to answer the question.
Mrs. Smith. I haven't failed to answer any question. I have
answered all of your questions to the best of my ability under the
Constituti on. I have refused
Mr. Scherer. You have refused to answer.
Mrs. Smith. May I finish my answer, please?
6640 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
I have only refused to answer those questions which I consider to
be an abrogation of my rights under the Constitution, the first and
fifth amendments. That guarantees me the right to refuse to answer
any questions that I feel may incriminate me and eventually, in some
way or other, perhaps incrinunate other people.
I am only speaking for myself when I say I refuse to answer on
these grounds. They are strictly constitutional grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you feel that you could refuse to answer a ques-
tion of this committee which might incriminate someone else?
Mrs. Smith. I certainly do not. I feel that my rights are being
protected.
Mr. ScHERER. Th;it is what you said.
Mrs. Smith. I said perhaps eventually in some wa^'
I am not speaking for somebody else. I am merely speaking for
myself. I can't plead self-incrimination for somebody else; only
for myself.
Mr. Arens. Is the record clear that this witness is ordered and di-
rected to answer whether or not she is registered under the Federal
Lobbying Act?
Mr. DoTLE. If it isn't clear I will again instruct the witness.
You are instructed to answer the question whether or not you are
registered under the Federal Lobbying Act.
Mrs. Smith. I repeat what I said before. I refuse to answer on
these grounds previously stated.
Mr. Doyle. Very well.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been employed at the Cannon Electric
Co.?
Mrs. Smith. You are inquiring into my places of employment, my
thoughts, and associations again.
Again I must refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. IMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question. It manifestly
is an appropriate question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that question also, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a copy of the
Communist Daily People's World with reference to the disassocia-
tion from the Camion Electric Co. of certain employees. And the
article has this heading: "Cannon Electric has carried out its first
two loyalty firings under agreement — " and so forth, listing 1 or 2
persons who have been disassociated under a loyalty program of
Cannon Electric, including one Mrs. Delphine M. Smith.
Kindly look at that exhibit and tell this committee whether or not
you were fired from Cannon Electric under a loyalty program.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 430," see appendix, p. 7855.)
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that question along with the other
questions for the same reasons as stated, the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to still an-
other document from the Communist Daily People's World. It is an
comjmunist political subversion 6641
article appearing under date of Monday, August 15, 1949: "Civil
Rights Congress unit hits customs for leaflet seizures."
I summarize the essence of the article with reference to seizures by
customs officials of certain propaganda coming into the United States.
It quotes in this article a Mrs. Delphine Smith, identified in the article
as from the Los Angeles Civil Rights Congress, and a member of the
delegation filing the protest.
Kindly look at this exhibit, if you please, ma'am, and tell the com-
mittee whether or not it is an accurate representation of the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 431," see appendix, p. 7856.)
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer this, as other questions, and repeat
you have no right to ask me this, 3'ou or any other body so constituted.
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document.
We the people of the United States, of the city of Los Angeles in the State of
California, do on this ISTth anniversary rededicate ourselves to the principles of
the Bill of Rights.
And this document attacks the House Committee on Un-American
Activities. It protests the indictment of the Communist Party traitors
in New York City. It protests a number of things. And it is signed
by a number of persons, including one Delphine Smith, and issued by
tlie Los Angeles Civil Rights Congress.
Kindly look at this document Mr. "Wlieeler is displaying to you,
and tell us whether or not you were one of the participants and
leaders in that movement.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 432," see appendix, p. 7857.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Smith. In placing these documents, as you call them, before me
and asking me these questions you are in violation of the first amend-
ment to the Constitution.
The first amendment protects all citizens. Therefore, I have re-
fused to answer this in the same manner, the first and fifth amend-
ments. I want to protect the rights of people to speak.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of an organization dedicated to
the destruction of the Constitution of the United States?
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds that I
have stated previously, and will continue to state. The grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that, in the
presence of this witness, another witness be sworn.
Mr. Stephen "Wereb.
Would you kindly coine forward.
Mr. Doyle. Very well.
Mr. Arens. Please remain standing, Mr. Wereb, while the chair-
man administers an oath to you.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Werer. I do.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN A. WEEEB
Mr. Arens. Won't you have a seat, please, Mr. Wereb.
Kindly identify yourself, if you please, sir, by name, residence,
and occupation.
6642 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Wereb. My name is Stephen A. Wereb. I own and operate the
Weber Typewriter Service. I am a resident citizen of the United
States.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, I expect to interrogate you at length in a
little while on other matters. But, for the present, may I ask, have
J ou ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Wereb. At the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
I was, sir.
Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Wereb. 1944, early part of, until the middle part of 1948.
Mr. Arens. During all of the time of your membership in the Com-
munist Party were you so engaged solely and exclusively at the
behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation to serve your country ?
Mr. Wereb. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time ideologically identified with the
conspiracy ?
Mr. Wereb. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, in the course of your membership in the
Communist Party did you have occasion to know a person by the
name of Delphine Murphy Smith ?
Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you know that person as a Communist?
Mr. Wereb. I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in the hearing room today ?
Mr. Wereb. I do.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point her out to the committee.
Mr. Wereb. That is Delphine Smith sitting there in the blue dress.
Mr. Doyle. In the witness chair ?
Mr. Wereb. Yes. Wearing the blue dress.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. DELPHINE MUEPHY SMITH— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Smith, would you kindly look around to your
right at the gentleman who has just testified under oath.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Smith, while you are under oath, would you kindly
look at the gentleman who has just testified. Look him in the
face and tell this committee while you are under oath and while he
is under oath, did he lie or did he tell the truth when he said he knew
you as a Communist.
Mrs. Smith. I don't intend to dignify these proceedings by answer-
ing that question "Yes" or "No" or looking around at the witness.
He is your witness. I don't intend to look at him. I have no interest
in looking at him. I, therefore, refuse to answer on the same grounds
I previously stated. I think this is a terrible violation of my rights or
anybody else's rights under the Constitution, that I should be re-
quired to question somebody, look at them or anything else. It has
nothing to do with it.
Mr. Sciierer. I ask that you direct the witness to look at the wit-
ness Wereb.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Just as soon as she is through conferring watli counsel.
Mrs. Smith. I stand on the same grounds that I previously stood
on. I restate what I said before.
COMIVIXINIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6643
Mr. ScHERER. The record should show that the witness refused to
look at the witness as requested.
Mr. Doyle. So that the record will show, I instruct you to face the
witness Mr. Wereb who has, under oath, sworn that he knew you as
a member of the Communist Party. And ask you if you recognize
him.
Mrs. Smith. I don't intend to dignity these proceedings by doing
any thing of the sort. And I refuse on the same grounds that I pre-
viously stated.
Mr.ARENS. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this will conclude
the staff interrogation of ]\Ii-s. Smith, with our thanks, if you please,
Mrs. Smith.
We would like, if you please, Mr. Chairman, to continue with the
interrogation of Mr. Wereb if the committee has no further questions
of Mrs. Smith.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, may I ask Mr. Wereb one question while Mrs.
Smith is in the chair.
Mr. V/ereb, you have been in the hearing room since the commence-
ment of the hearing this morning ?
Mr. Wereb. I have, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You were here when Mrs. Smith, the witness presently
in the witness chair, was called and took the oath?
Mr. Wereb. I was, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You have observed her for the last 10 or 15 minutes
while she has been on the stand ?
Mr. Wereb. I did.
Mr. Doyle. And you observed lier, within 10 or 15 feet of her, at all
times ?
Mrs. Wereb. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. Is there any question in your mind but that this Mrs.
Smith whom you have identified as a Communist is the one you
knew as a Communist while you were an FBI agent ?
Mr. Wereb. Not one whatsoever.
Mr. Arens. I have one other question of Mrs. Smith.
Mrs. Smith, I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you were one of the leading colonizers in heavy industry
in the Los Angeles area for the Communist conspiracy, and that you
were first executive secretary at the behest of the Communist con-
spiracy for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Please answer that question while you are under oath.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Smith. You know you asked me some questions here — this
question is one of them — in which you are violating the very principles
which you purport to support. You purport to support and protect
the Constitution of the United States. By the mere existence of this
committee, each of you in your own way has abrogated the rij^hts
under the Constitution. You are denying that we have these riglits.
And I would like to state that you are o, 5 lawyers. You said so earlier.
I am no lawyer. 1 am expected to come here and pit my wits against
you, against lawyers. So I am compelled to say what I have said.
Not only compelled to protect myself, but I am compelled to protect
the Constitution of which I am being accused of violating.
Mr. SciiERER. Which you Communists would destroy.
6644 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Smith. Would you please not interrupt me ?
Mr. SciiERER, iVnd you Communists would destroy it if you had the
opportunity.
Mrs. Smith. Are you asking me or telling me ?
Mr. ScHERER. It is a comment. That is all.
Mrs. Smith. You may comment. This is your committee; it is
not mine.
Mr. ScHERER. Obviously, madam.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, I think that at this point it might be well to
have the record show that, in line with my opening statement, the
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has long
ranked as one of the major adjuncts of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Let the record show, and it is under-
stood, that one reason we are questioning I^Irs. Smith is not only be-
cause she has been identified under oath by Mr. Wereb here in her
immediate presence just now, but that in the Guide to Subversive
Organizations and Publications published by this committee May 14,
1951, page 13 thereof, it shows, first, that the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, in which the Los Angeles committee is
one of the main adjuncts, was cited as subversive and Communist by
Attorney General Tom Clark on June 1, 1948, and September 21, 1948
and that on March 29, 1944, and June 25, 1942, the Special Committee
on Un-American Activities published a statement saying :
One of the oldest auxiliaries of the Communist Party in the United States.
And then the California Committee on Un-American Activities, in its
report of 1947, declared as follows :
"Among the Communist-front organizations for racial agitation" which also
serve as "money-collecting media" and "as special political organizing centers
for the racial minority they pretend to champion." Works closely with the
International Labor Defense, legal arm of the Communist Party, in defense of
foreign-born Communists and sympathizers.
I wanted the record to show that for the benefit of Mrs. Smith, so
she will further understand why we have called her and asked these
questions.
Mrs. Smith. You have taken a good deal of time, Mr. Chairman, to
attack the Constitution. I wonder if you will permit me as much
time to attack this committee and give valid reasons for attacking it?
Mr. Doyle. We have been very courteous, and glad to be cooperative
with you.
Mrs. Smith. Will you deny me the right to do that? Will you
deny me the same amount of time that you had to attack the Con-
stitution ?
Mr. Doyle. You take all the time you please to make this a forum
for your speech, and that is all right.
^ Mrs. Smith. Do you deny me the right to take the same length of
time you have had to attack tlie Constitution, to defend the Con-
stitution and attack this committee? Will you give me that right?
Mr. ScHERER. Madam, if you will answer any of the questions that
Mr. Arens asks you, any of the pertinent
Mrs. Smith. I answered every question that was asked me except
those in abrogation of my constitutional rights. I stood on those
grounds only.
Mr, ScHERER. You answered the question about your name and your
location of your employment, and that is all you have answered. The
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6645
rest of the questions you have refused to answer, invoking the fifth
amendment. Now I am sayinp; that
Mrs. Smith. You are in vioLation of the Constitution. For that
reason I refused to answer them, and only that reason.
Mr. ScHERER. If you will answer those questions we will let you
speak for a half hour.
Mrs. Smith. You say that I can only answer those questions which
you want me to answer. I can only say those things which you, in
your narrow little thinking, deem right for me to answer, I can only
answer the tilings that you think I should answer. In other words,
you are denying me the right to say what I want to say.
This is exactly what I said when I came before this committee, that
you are denying the right of freedom of speech, the first amendment.
You are probing into tlioughts and associations.
Mr. Velde. Mrs. Smith, do you actually have contempt for this
committee ?
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer questions
Mr. Velde. Will you answer that question ? Do you have contempt
for this committee ?
Mrs. Smith. You are denying me tliat right.
Mr. Velde. Do you have contempt for this committee ? ,
Mrs. Smith. 1 refuse to answer that in this committee while the
cards are stacked against me. You are lawyers. I am not a lawyer.
I don't have the command of knowledge that you have pertaining to
law.
Mr. Veij)e. May I say, Mr. Chairman, I associate myself with Mr.
Scherer.
Mrs. Smith. I would debate these things publicly with anybody, but
not before this committee.
Mr, Dotle. Mrs. Smith, you have very able counsel by your side.
Are there any other questions ?
Mr. Scherer. I have just one question.
Have you continued to be a member of the Communist Party since
the Russians marched into Hungary?
Mrs. Smith. Sir, I consider that a baiting question. You are at-
tempting to anger me. to throw me off guard, so I Avill say some ter-
rible thing that yon will say "Ah, now we have her."'
I refuse to debate these questions with you. In an open and free
and public forum ; yes, I would de!)ate any number of questions, in-
<i]uding any number of people.
You asked me a question. I would like to be permitted to answer.
You refuse to allow me time to answer.
Mr. Sciiereh. I ask that she be directed to answer.
Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer this question on the same gi'ounds.
As I stated, in any public fonnn that was a free forum where the
cards were not stacked against me, where it was not a loaded forum,
where it w^as not your forum, an unconstitutional forum, I would be
glad to do it. I would be more than glad to do it.
Mr. Scherer. "Wlien you were not under oath you would be glad lo.
Mrs. Smith. I would be glad to state my position at any time exc'.'pt
before this committee. I don't intend to state it before this committer.
Mr, Scherer. Because you are under oath.
85333— 57— pt. 1 -33
6646 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Smith, I have stated my reasons. I will reiterate those rea-
sons, the first and fifth amendments. As I said, no matter how many
times you ask me, it will still be these gi'ounds.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Smith, it is not always that we are able to produce
face to face a person wlio identifies another person as a member of the
Communist Party. This morning we have been able to do that
for your benefit in producing Mr. Wereb. He is right here within
4 or 5 feet of you.
I wish to ask you again whether or not 3 ou care to affirm or deny or
state that Mr. Wereb's testimony is false and untrue. He is under
oath also.
What is your answer to that question?
Mrs. Smith. As I said before, I don't intend to, now or at any time,
dignify your witness by even looking at him. He is of no consequence
tome.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions?
Mr. Arens. No thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mrs. Smith. You are excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, kindly assume the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN A. WEREB— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, you have previously testified before the
Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Wereb. I have, sir.
Mr. Arens. We have, for present purposes, only a few questions
to ask you to complete the record on tlie subject matter under con-
sideration by the committee.
During the course of your membership in the Communist Party
at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation did you know
a person by the name of Carl Brant, B-r-a-n-t ?
Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell the committee the circumstances of your
acquaintanceship with him and any information you may have respect-
ing activities which were, to your judgment, detrimental to the
security interests of this Nation.
Mr. Wereb. This is going to be a long answer. Do you mind?
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead.
Mr. Wereb. I met Mr. Brant, Carl Brant, at one of the functionary
meetings at the Los Angeles County Communist Party. He was in-
troduced to me at that time as the labor chairman.
Carl Brant has appeared at every functionary meeting of the Los
Angeles County Communist Party that I can recall from 1944: to
1948.
He also was known to me as a representative of a union.
Carl Brant has been one of the policy formers of the Los Angeles
County Communist Party. He was the chairman of the resolutions
committee at the flip-flop of the Browder firing. He is the man who
wrote and presented to the functionaries and to the convention at that
time a resolution condenming the action of the United States Gov-
ernment.
He is the same gentleman — the same man. I beg your pardon. He
is the same man who advocated violence for the first time, in my
years' living in the United States, openly and publicly.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6647
Mr. Arens. Do you have a specific illustration of that advocacy of
violence?
Mr. Wereb. I was on the functionary committee of the bay area,
wliich took in Torrance, Hawthorne, Inolewood, and the southwest
section. Also members of what they call the Southwest. Industrial
Section.
Mr. DoYx,E. May I interrupt.
The functionary committee of what?
Mr. Wereb. I am speaking of the Communist Party, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You were ?
Mr. Wereb. Yes, sir.
One afternoon we had a call from the Los Angeles County Commit-
tee at 124 West 6th Street from a person by the name of Xemmy
Sparks, who was then the chairman of the Los Angeles County Com-
munist Party. He said, "Steve, I want to you to go to a meeting at
an auditorium." He gave me the address, which I don't have the cor-
rect number at the present time, but it is located at Jefferson near
Vermont Avenue. There were about 15 to 20 functionaries at that
meeting.
Bud Blair was the chairman of the Southwest Industrial Section.
Bud Blair i]itroduced this man to the functionaries as the labor chair-
man of the Los Angeles County Communist Party, and that he would
address the crowd.
Carl Brant stood on the podium and told the group that the Fascist
courts of the United States, or the State of California, have ordered
the limiting of pickets at a plant, the United States Motors, at that
time on strike, and that he was not going to stand for any screwy
Fascist decisions.
He demanded that each one of the fmictionaries there, whose duty
it was to mobilize manpower, bring at least 250 people for the follow-
ing morning to this plant which was located between Avalon and
Main Street on Slauson Avenue. At least 250 husky manpower.
I was personally instructed to bring the longshoremen, stevedores,
and those people of the Maritime Workers because it was my — par-
tially my district. And at 7 o'clock the following morning they would
give the Los Angeles Police Department all the hell that they were
lookmg for. There would be violence. And the huskier the man-
power the better it would be.
I most naturally did not call anyone but the proper authorities for
that.
And Carl Brant the following morning led a group of people with
Philip Connelly. They were at the head of this parade that were
gomg to whip the police. He headed this group. I imagine there
were 3,000 people in this group. They were armed with civilian de-
fense helmets to keep from getting hurt by the police. Some of them
carried their batons that were used, sticks and things that were gath-
ered at this hall v.liere the gathering took place. And they were go-
ing to be used against the police after the police warning, calling the
court order to the men over and over.
Mind you all these people were not Communists. These were union
people who were being led and duped by a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify Carl Brant as a person
who, to your certain knowledge, w as a Communist and a member of
the Communist conspiratorial apparatus?
6648 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Wereb. I have not seen him, sir.
Mr. Arexs. Did you know him as a Communist. ?
Mr. AVereb. I did know him at that time as a Communist.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?
Mr. Wereb. That was from 1944 until the middle of 1948.
Mr. Arens. Did you in the course of your experience in the Com-
munist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
know a person by the name of Charles Gladstone ?
Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?
Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. Could you give us further identification of Charles
Gladstone?
Mr. Wereb. Charles Gladstone, sir, was a member of, I believe, the
garment industry.
Mr. Arens. Where ?
Mr. Wereb. In the city of Los Angeles. Also a longtime member
of the Communist Party,
The very first time I was introduced to him, I was introduced to
him by a woman who was a secretary and m.embership secretary of
our group, Edith Smith. And she introduced me to him as Charley
Young once; the next time as Charles Gladstone, and I believe there
was another alias which I don't recall at this time.
And he was active, very active in the county conunittee and in func-
tionary meetings. I have seen him many and many a time at those
doings.
Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of your experience in the Commu-
nist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, know
a person by the name of Sanf ord Goldner, G-o-l-d-n-e-r ?
Mr. Wereb. I have seen him not too many times. Four or five times
I have seen him, sir.
Mr. Arens. Where?
Mr. Wereb. I have seen him at functionary meetings at 2222 West
7th Street.
Mr. Arens. Were those meetings to which only Communists were
admissible ?
Mr. Wereb. That is correct. Not only Communists but they were
Comjnunist functionaries only.
Mr. Arens. Those would be full-time members of the party?
Mr. Wereb. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Do you identify him as a person who, to your certain
knowledge, was a Communist?
Mr. Wereb. At that time ; yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you, during the course of your experience in the
Conununist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investiga-
tion, know a pei-son by the name of John Uhrin, U-h-r-i-n?
Mr. Wereb. I have seen Mr. John Uhrin — I believe I have seen him
in the room this morning. He is one of the few that I have seen in
the room. He has been very active in the foreign end, or the Hun-
garian group.
Mr. Arens. Of what?
Mr. Wereb. Of the Communist Party. He has controlled the very
first workers' corps, workers' club, and the workers' movement in the
Hungarian movement as early as 1921 when he first came.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6649
Mr. Arens. Is he a person who, to your certain knowledge, was a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. AVereb. He has attended Communist Party meetings in my pres-
ence, sir.
Mr. Arens. "Were those meetings to which only comrades were ad-
missible?
Mr. Wereb. I would not be too sure, and I wouldn't recall that at
this time, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a Communist?
Mr. Wereb. I do know that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you know, during the course of your experience
in the Communist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation, a man by the name of Frank Whitley, W-h-i-t-1-e-y ?
Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?
Mr. Wereb. Pie was a Communist. He was a member of the West
Adams group.
With all apologies to everybody here — I don't mean to point out
anybody's race — he was a colored gentleman, and he — I will change
that again. He was a colored man. And he tried very, very hard a
number of times to become an elected or appointed member of the
county committee, and he never made it. But he always acted as a
functionary from the West Adams group.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Connnunist?
Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Wereb, during the course of your experience
in the Communist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation, did you have occasion to acquire information respecting
the emphasis wliich the Communist Party placed on a counterattack
against the legislative efforts to expose and deal with the Communist
Party, such as the Smitli Act, the Internal Security Act, the security
provisions of the ImmigTation and Nationality Act, Communist Con-
trol Act, and comparable legislation?
Mr. Wereb. I do, sir.
Mr. Arens. To what extent was there an emphasis plaoed by the
Communist Part}', and to what extent is there presently an emphasis
placed by the Communist Partj^ and its front groups in creating
sentiment and in undertaking to engage in what we might call politi-
cal subversion against this legislative effort of the Congress ?
Mr. Wereb. At the time of my membership, sir, I do not recall just
at this present time how many fronts or how many groups the Com-
munist Party had started. It was the order of one meeting where
the chairman and speaker was William Schneiderman, who was con-
victed under the Smith Act.
Not at that time, of course. He has been convicted since.
Mr. Schneiderman stood before the crowd and told everyone to be
doubly aware of anyone who might have police, Federal Bureau of
Investigation, or any spy activities whatsoever because from then on
they would have to split the party into small splinters, and the small
splinters would have to control friendly groups. They called them
at that time supportive groups.
And these groups I never had a chance to work in directly because
I worked from 4 to 5 nights every week, including almost every Sun-
6650 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUB^'ERSION
day. And it was one of those things that I just couldn't take part in
everythin<r. And I was not too well acquainted. But I do know that
they attacked anything, any legislation, any Senator, any Congress-
man who might in one way, shape, or form add anything contrary to
their ideas.
Mr. Arkns. Now may I just ask you this question :
On the basis of your background and experience in the Communist
Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, are you
in a position to tell this committee and, via this committee, the Ameri-
can people whether the Communist Party, the Communist operation,
is merely a political operation or is it a conspiratorial apparatus de-
signed to overthrow the Government of the United States by force
and violence and to subvert our American institutions ?
Mr. Wereb. The Communist Party has dedicated itself in my
presence, at the time of the overthrow of the Browder regime, to be a
militant, a revolutionary, anti-United States Government group.
And, as I testified once before, I sat there and listened to at least five
of their leaders who gave their word and their pledge to establish
the dictatorship of the proletariat, to establish a Bolshevik system of
government in this country.
And those men, in wdiose presence this was said, were all higher
functionaries of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Is this serious business we are engaged in here, under-
taking to expose the Communist conspiracy? Or are we just dealing
with a few intellectual crackpots?
Mr. Wereb. This, sir, is an international movement of grave danger.
And if anyone in the world has any doubt, all they have to do is pick
up the paper and look at the dead in Budapest and see how they applied
the democratic forces they wish to apply here.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staff interrogation of
this witness. He has been interrogated on other subject matters- as
the chairman knows, by this committee. We wanted his testi-
monj^ with reference to this particular area of the committee's concern.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
But I do want to make a comment. I want to commend Mr.
Wereb on the very intelligent, fine statement he has made before^ the
committee this morning. And I am sure that all patriotic American
people would commend Mr. Wereb for the fine patriotic services he
has rendered.
IVIr. Doyt.e. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No. I just join in the sentiments of my colleague
from Illinois.
Mr, DoTi.E. And I will join in Mr. Velde's statement.
The witness is excused pending further questions by counsel.
Mr. Arens. Would you accommodate the committee by remaining
in the hearing room because we may have some other folks who might
want to have an opportunity to look you in the face and tell this com-
mittee whether or not you were telling the truth while you were under
oath.
Mr. Wereb. T will be very happy to, sir.
Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6651
(Wliereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent : Representatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee m.embers present: Representatives Doyle, Velde and
Scherer. )
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please be in session.
May I make two statements.
First, there will be absolutely no smoking in this room, by order
of the United States marshal.
Secondly, I want to thank the audience for its cooperation this
morning in making it fairly easy for the committee to function and
for everyone to be heard.
The committee will adjourn at 12 o'clock, and reconvene at 2.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Carl Brant, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnlj'^ swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Brant. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CARL BEANT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Brant. Mr. Chairman, is this hearing being televised?
Mr. Doyle. "Well, your pictures are being taken, as you see.
Mr. Brant. Is it being televised ?
Mr. Doyle. No, it is not, I am informed.
Mr. Brant. Would you mind identifying this gentleman up here?
Is he one of the committee ?
Mr. Doyle. Never mind. Let's proceed.
I have told you I am informed it is not being televised.
Let's proceed.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mr. Brant. Carl Brant, 2843 Avenel Street, construction worker.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Brant, you are appearing today in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Brant. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Brant. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter, Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Brant, where are you employed?
]\Ir. Brant. Well, I want to answer that question in this way :
I would like to make clear that my attitude toward this committee
and my response to any questions asked of me are determined by sev-
eral factors.
Mr. Arens. Just tell us, are you reading from a prepared statement?
Mr. Brant. I have some notes.
Mr. Arens. Wlio prepared those notes ?
Mr. Brant. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
6652 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Brant. I am tryinf]^ to answer the original question. Am I
going to be permitted to answer it ?
Mr. Doyle. Answer the original question, but don't read a long
statement to us.
Mr. Brant. I haven't got a long statement. I want to answer the
question. You brought me up here and expect me to answer questions.
Mr. Arens. Tell the committee — and we will supersede all questions
with this for the moment — to your certain knowledge was it
a Communist who participated in the preparation of the statement
Avhicli you are about to read to the committee.
Mr. Brant. The history and the record of this committee being
what it is, and my rights being placed in jeopardy, and this com-
mittee being established, in my opinion, in violation of the first amend-
ment to the Constitution of the United States — because this commit-
tee was set up under a resolution which states that its sole purpose is to
investigate propaganda
Since propaganda is the propagation of ideas, it is a violation of
the first amendment to the Constitution. I don't intend to be a party
to any violation of the first amendment to the Constitution.
I believe that this
Mr. Arens. Would you hesitate there a moment ?
Mr. Brant. Why don't you let me finish ?
Mr. Arens. Will you tell us about any conspiratorial overt acts
of which you may have knowledge ?
Mr. Brant. Are you afraid to let me finish the answer to the ques-
tion you asked me ? You are trying to interrupt me ever}'^ time I get
started.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead.
Mr. Brant. Thank you.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
Before he goes ahead I want to ask counsel a question.
Is this the man that Wereb just identified ?
Mr. Brant. He is interrupting again. I thought I was going to
have a chance to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Is this the man just identified as advocating force
and violence and overthrow of this Government ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, that is the man. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Now I understand.
Mr. Brant. Mr. Chairman, could I finish the answer to the question ?
Mr. Doyle. Let's you and I have an understanding because I have
an obligation, too.
I will not have time to let you make this hearing a forum for a long
dissertation — you understand that— for a long speech.
Mr. Brant. I want to inform you, Mr. Doyle, that I don't desire
that opportunity for a long time to talk.
Mr. Doyle. I will expect you to be brief.
Mr. Brant. I will try to be as brief as I can and within the — de-
pending, of course, upon the kind of questions you ask of me and
the kind of interruptions that take place and so forth.
But I. of course, did not come here willingly. I wouldn't come to
a meeting before a connnittee of this type of my own free will and
volition.
Mr. Doyle. We know that. Please answer the question and don't
make this a forum for your prepared speech, please. I know you
would like to.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6653
Mr, Brant. Well, I am going to refuse to answer any questions
which invade my legal rights. And the record of the committee is
such that I find it incumbent to do so. The Detroit Free Press, for
example
Mr, ScHERER. I object to any reading of what the Detroit Free
Press said.
Mr, Brant. Are you afraid to hear what the Detroit Free Press
said about this committee?
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion. And if he doesn't answer it and he continues to make a speech
we proceed to the next question. Then I will move to cite this Com-
munist for contempt.
Mr, Brant. What is this here, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. I will second the motion.
Mr. Brant. I am here at the instance of the committee, and there
is a gadget here. I would like to know what is going on.
Mr, Porter. This witness has a right to counsel, Mr. Chairman,
free from snooping and wiretapping and listening in.
I ask the chairman to direct the man with the device here at the
witness' left to remove himself.
Mr, Doyle, Yes. What is that ?
Broadcasting Technician. Mutual Broadcasting System, sir.
Mr. Doyle. The Avitness objects to it. Please desist.
Mr, Arens, Mr. Brant, let's get back to the principal question.
Where are you employed ?
Mr, Brant, I decline to answer that question because of the rea-
sons that I was trying to state, and I want to finish stating them to
tJie
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Brant. I am trying to answer the question.
Mr. ScHERER. He is making a speech. I ask that you direct the
w^itness to answer the question. If he does not invoke the fifth amend-
ment, let's proceed to the next cjuestion.
Mr, Brant. I am trying to
Mr, Scherer. I am not interested in listening to a man
Mr. Br.\nt. I am trying to invoke the first and fifth amendments
to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Doyle. That is all you have to state. We are not going to
let you read an editorial from any paper or anything of that sort.
Please proceed and cooperate with the committee rules.
Mr. Scherer. I suggest we proceed to the next question.
Mr. Brant, I would like to have cooperation from tlie conmiittee
also. This is not a free and equal forum that is taking place here
today because you are
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Stephen Wereb?
Mr. Brant. I decline to ansAver that question because of the rea-
sons I have already stated under the first and fifth amendments to
the Constitution. It is an invasion of my legal rights, and I am not
going to ansAver the question.
Mr. Arens. ]Mr. Wereb took an oath a feAV minutes ago,
Mr. Wereb, would you please stand?
(The witness, Wereb, arose.)
6654 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Look over your shoulder, please, Mr. Brant, at Mr.
Wereb.
Mr. Brant. I don't care to look over my shoulder at this creature.
Mr. SciiERER. Just a minute. I ask that you direct the witness ■
Mr. DoTLE. May we ask your cooperation for the purpose of identi-
fication ? Because you are both under oath.
Mr. Brant. I don't believe I am under any obligation to do that,
Mr. Chairman. I refuse to do it.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct him to look at the witness.
Mr. Doyle. I am directing you to look at the witness Mr. Wereb.
Mr. Brant. When you show courtesy to me and permit me to pro-
ceed without interruptions, I certainly will give you every courtesy
in the world.
Mr. Arens. Will you tell us about the Communist conspiracy if
you have any information on that ?
Mr. Brant. That is a question that is asked for publicity purposes.
It is a loaded question. I will not answer the question under the
first and fifth amendments of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb testified under oath a little while ago, laid
his liberty on the line, and said that he knew you as a member of the
Communist conspiratorial apparatus. While you are imder oath tell
the committee was he lying or was he telling the truth.
Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons I have
already given.
]\rr. Arens. Give the reasons again.
Mr. Brant. The first and fifth amendments of the Constitution.
Of course, I haven't been giving them fully, but I do stand on the
first and fifth amendments.
JNIr. Doyle. Those are sufficient and we respect them, of course,
the same as you do.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not you know Mr. Wereb you would be supply-
ing information which could be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding ?
Mr. Brant. I don't care to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Porter. I suggest that counsel be directed to show the courtesy
to the witness of not interrupting before the witness has been given a
reasonable opportmiity to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel to the witness be
admoniphed that his sole and exclusive prerogative is to advise his
client as to his constitutional rights.
Mr. Porter. If counsel will not observe the amenities on the part of
the committee, counsel for the witness has to fight to protect the wit-
ness.
Mr. Doyle. You are well acquainted with the proceedings of the
committee, and I ask your cooperation, Attorney Porter, in not vio-
lating the rules of the committee. I am sure you will do that.
Now_ the question is one that I believe is entirely appropriate for
me to instruct you to answer, and I instruct you to answer the last
question.
Mr. Brant. Wliat is the question, Mr. Doyle ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6655
Mr. DoTLE. May we have the question, please, Mr. Reporter ?
( Wliereupon, the record was read by the reporter as follows :)
Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee truthfully whether or
not you know Mr. Wereb you would be supplying information which could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Brant. Mr. Chairman, I don't have to state the reasons in
explanation of any legal position. I simply stand on the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. The Court says you do. You have to answer that
question yes or no. If you don't, you are in contempt of the committee.
Mr. DoTLE. What is your answer to that last question ?
Mr. Brant. I answer it by stating that I stand on the fifth amend-
ment. And the first amendment, of course.
Mr. Arens. We have just one other little preliminaiy.
Do you know your counsel, Mr. Porter, in any capacity other than
the capacity of attorney and client ?
Mr. Brant. I think that is a very unfair question. And I think
it is a statement which has no place in these proceedings. My counsel
is here to represent me legally.
Mr. Arens. Yes, and I am just asking you if you know him in any
other capacity.
Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer any question of that type you have
asked, under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Brant. And I have my right to legal counsel.
Mr. Arens. We want you to have legal counsel.
Tell this committee do you know your counsel, Mr. Porter, in any
capacity other than as legal counsel. '
Mr. Brant. I have already answered the question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer it under the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Brant, Mr. Wliecler is going to lay before you 5
letterheads of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, and on each of these letterheads your name appears as a sponsor
of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Two
are in 1954, another in 1955, and two back in 1953.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 433-437, see appendix, pp. 7858-
7860.)
Would you kindly look at those letterheads and see if you can
help this committee of the Congress undertaking to develop facts
on subversion as to whether or not you are accurately described there
as a sponsor of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born as of the dates indicated?
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Brant. There's several documents here. What is your question ?
Mr. Arens. Out of the several dates there I just thought you per-
haps could tell us whether or not any of those exhibits accurately
describe you as a sponsor.
6656 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly look at those letterheads and tell the committee whether or
not you are accurately described as a sponsor of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel and examines documents.)
Mr. Brant. I notice one of them states that you have
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Would you please answer the question.
Mr. Brant. Just a moment. I will.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer the question under the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told the com-
mittee truthfully whether or not you are and have been a sponsor of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a crimi-
nal proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Brant. 1 refuse to answer that question under the fifth amend-
ment.
]Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the witness be ordered
and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer that last question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Brant, The same answer.
Mr. Dotle. As you gave before to the same question ?
Mr. Brant. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. The first and fifth amendments?
Mr. Brant. My answer is that I am standing on the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we have, Mr. Brant, a publication of the Com-
munist Party itself of 19.30.
Twenty Years of Growth and Progress of the Communist Party,
USA. _ _ _ ■ . . .
And it sets forth the executive committee. And tliis publication
identifies as one member of the executive connnittee of the Communits
conspiratorial apparatus a person by the name of Carl Brant.
Please look at that publication and tell us whether or not certain
jDages accurately describe you and your status as a member of the
Executive Committee of the Communist Party.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 438a, b," see appendix, pp. 7861,
T862.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Brant. I decline to answer the question on the first and fifth
amendments of the Constitution.
]Mr. Arens. Did that publication of the Connnunist Party lie or did
it tell the truth when it said that you were a member of the executive
committee of this congressional district of the Communist conspiracy ^
Mr. Brant. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now do you know a man by the name of William Ward
Kimple, K-i-m-p-1-e?
Mr, Brant. Same answer. I decline to answer under the first and
fifth amendments.
COMMtTNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6657
Mr. Arens. Kimple laid his liberty on the line before this com-
mittee and testified under oath that he knew you as a member of the
Communist conspiracy. Was he lying or was he telling- the trutli ?
Mr, Brant. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Max Silver ?
Mr. Brant. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Max Silver laid his liberty on the line and testified
under oath before this committee that he knew you as a member of the
Communist conspiracy and that you were a Communist. Was he
lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Brant. The same answer; first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. 1 have still another publication I want to invite to your
attention. It is the Communist Daily People's World. This Com-
munist Daily People's World of February 2, 1954, has an article :
Foreign Born Committee Sets Parley February 28
The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born today announcetl
a conference on the campaign to repeal the Walter-McCarran law and defend
victims of the legislation.
Joining in the committee in sponsorship of the conferences were a
number of people, including one Carl '"Brandt."
Look at that publication and see whether or not it was erroneously
putting the finger on you as one of the sponsors of this conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 439," see appendix, p. 7863.)
(The witness examines document. )
Mr. Brant. I decline to answer the question because it is an
invasion of my rights under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arjbns. Now I have still another document I want to invite
to your attention and see if you can help this Committee on Un-
American Activities to develop facts on subversion. It is the Com-
munist Daily People's World of Thursday, April 6, 1950. The article
to which I would invite your attention is entitled "Los Angeles Con-
ference Called on Civil Rights."
A number of people have joined in a call to a conference and con-
vention initiated by the Civil Ilights Congress, including one Carl
"Brandt."
Look at that article and see if that publication accurately describes
your participation in that conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 440," see appendix, p. 7804.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Brant. I decline to answer the question for the same reasons.
Mr, Arens. Now w^e have still another publication. This exhibit
tells about a big rally to be held (April 4, 1953) under the joint aus-
pices of the Civil Rights (congress and the Negro Labor Council of
Tvos Angeles on behalf of the Northwest Smith Act defendants.
Those were the Coninnniist traitors who were convicted.
And it tells about the sponorship of this group, including one Carl
Brant, United Electrical Workers, 1421.
Please look at that publication and see whether or not that Civil
Rights Congress was invading your rights in telling about you being
a participant in that conference.
6658 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION ,
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 441," see appendix, p. 7865.)
(The witness examines document. )
Mr. Brant. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now while you are under oath would you care to tell
the Committee on Un-American Activities what was behind the Eisler
case? Was it all a frameup or was it something legitimate? Tell
US about that, would you, please ?
Mr. Brant. I don't care to discuss the Eisler case with this com-
mittee.
Mr. Arens. Why?
I\Ir. Brant. It is a matter of my own personal thinking as to whether
I have any thoughts about Eisler or anybody else.
And under the first amendment I don't believe that it is required
of me to reveal any thoughts that I may or may not have to this
committee.
And I stand on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
what you know about the Eisler case you would be revealing facts that
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. Brant. Well, I would like to tell you how and the reasons I
stand on that.
Mr. Arens. I wish you would, please, sir.
Mr. Brant. All right. You are going to allow me, I am sure, to
answer.
Mr. Arens. Sure I will.
Mr. Brant. I want to read you the United States Supreme Court
decision in the Slochower case, which stated, quote :
At the outset we must condemn the practice of imputing a sinister meaning to
the exercise of a person's constitutional right under the fifth amendment. The
right of an accused person to refuse to testify, which had been in England merely
a rule of evidence, was so important to our forefathers that they raised it to the
dignity of a constitutional enactment, and it has been recognized as "one of the
most valuable prerogatives of the citizen." * * * We have reaffirmed our faith
in this principle recently in Quinn v. United States. In XJllman v. United States,
decided last month, we scored the assumption that those who claim this privilege
are either criminal or perjurers. The privilege against self-incrimination would
be reduced to a hollow mockery if its exercise could be taken as equivalent either
to a confession of guilt or a conclusive presumption of perjury. As we pointed
out in Ullman, a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be
innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.
End of quote from the Slochower case by the Supreme Court.
Mr. Arens. I am glad you read that.
Do you have a reasonable fear of criminal prosecution if you tell
this committee what you know about the Eisler case ?
Mr. Brant. I stand on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, particularly in view of the status
of this record, that the witness be ordered and directed to answer that
outstanding question.
Mr. ScHERER. He has waived any right.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question asked by counsel.
Mr. Brant. In view of the Supreme Court's decision and in view of
the nature of this committee, I refuse to answer the question under
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Arexs. I want to invite your attention to another leaflet : Civil
Rights Congress Division, Mobilization for Democracy.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6659
Why is Gerhart Eisler in jail?
Hear Mrs. Gerhart Eisler on "What's Behind the Eisler Case."
Of course, this attacks the Committee on Un-.\jnerican Activities
for the Red scare. Then it has a number of people who are j>^oin^
to orate on the subject, inckiding one Carl Brant, president. Local
1421, UE-CIO.
Please look at that publication and see whether or not that accurately
describes your participation in that session on behalf of Eisler who
was in jail.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 442," see appendix, p. 7866.)
Mr. Brant. I refus to answer the question for the reasons I have
already ^iven. And 1 stand on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Just so the record is clear, I put it to you as a fact, sir,
and ask you to deny or affirm the fact that you are at this minute
a member of the international Communist conspiratorial apparatus
desio^ed to overthrow the Government of the United States by force
and violence.
Mr. Brant. That is a statement you are makino; ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. I have asked him to
affirm or deny that fact.
Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer that question under the first and fifth
amendments of the Constitution for the reasons I have already given.
Mr. Doyle. As chairman of the subcommittee, I am directing you to
answer that question.
Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
I have already given, on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. I have no questions, but I would like to make an obser-
vation.
And I refer to the statement of Mr. Wereb concerning the witness
here and his violent intentions to destroy the Constitution of the
United States of America. I do believe that he should be watched
by all of our intelligence agencies protecting the internal security
of this country.
Mr. Brant. Mr, Chairman, would vou let me
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Brant. Would you let me say something about this committee?
Mr. Doyle. I have one just before you leave the witness chair.
You referred to the Supreme Court case in Qvinn v. United States
of Ainerica. You didn't read this paragraph, however, in that de-
cision. I have the full decision here, if you will listen to me.
Mr. Brant. I will be glad to.
Mr. Doyle. I think it is important that you hear what I am read-
ing because you only read one ]^aragraph from that decision. I have
the full decision here, and I read on page 5 of that decision, in Quinn v.
U. S.^ quote :
There can be no doubt as to the power of T'ongress, by itself or throu{;h its
committees, to investigate matters and conditions relating to contemplated legis-
lation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is in-
deed coextensive with the power to legislate.
6660 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Sir. Doyle. Are you listening?
Mr. Brant. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle (continuing) :
Without the power to investigate — iucluding, of course, the authority to com-
pel testimony either through its own processes or through judicial trial — Con-
gress could be seriously handicapped in its efforts to exercise its constitutional
function wisely and effectively.
End of quote.
Mr. Brant. Would you mind letting me have that document and
read from it what you left out, sir ?
Mr. ScHEKER. 1 move the wntness be excused.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. Porter. Did you speak to me ?
Mr. Doyle. No.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to take another witness, Mr. Chairman, at
this time ?
Mr. Doyle. Can you handle one more in a short time?
Mr. Arens. I think ^Ye, can liandle 1 in 15 minutes.
Mr. Doyle. Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. John Uhrin, U-h-r-i-n. Please come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Will you raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Uhrin. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Take the witness chair, please,
TESTIMONY OF JOHN UHRIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Uhrin. John Uhrin, U-h-r-i-n, 737 Crenshaw Boulevard; re-
tired.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Uhrin, in response to
a subj^ena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. Uhrin. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Uhrin. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. PoRTEr.. John W. Porter, Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Uhrin, where were you born ?
Mr. Porter. Wait until all the floodlights are turned off.
Mr. Arens. The sole and exclusive prerogative of counsel is to
advise his witness with respect to his constitutional rights.
Woukl you kindly tell us where you were born ?
Mr. Porter. I am advising the witness not to answer any questions
wliile the photographing is going on.
Mr. Doyle. Will the cameramen please hasten. We don't want to
interfere with the freedom of the press.
Mr. Arens. Noav would you kindly tell the committee where you
were born ?
COMIMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6661
Mr. Uhrin. I was born in Hungary.
Mr. Arens. When?
Mr. Uhrin. 1881.
Mr. Arens. And are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Uhrin. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Arens. By derivation or by naturalization?
Mr. Uhrin. B}- naturalization.
Mr. Arens. "NVlien were you naturalized ?
Mr. Uhrin. 1928.
Mr. Arens. At the time you were naturalized as a citizen of the
United States, did you take an oath to support and defend the Con-
stitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic ?
Mr. Uhrin. I did.
Mr. Arens. At that time were you a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Uhrin. I refuse to answer on the grounds of first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully whether or not you were a member of the Com-
munist Parly at the time you took an oath to support and defend the
Constitution of the United States you would be supplying informa-
tion which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer it. We are not satisfied with
your answer as sufficient grounds.
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Uhrin. The Constitution provides for the first and fifth amend-
ments, and I stand on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now do you know a man by the name of Stepheil
Wereb, W-e-r-e-b ? Stephen A. Wereb.
Mr. Uhrin. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, would you please stand ?
(The witness, Wereb, arose.)
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly look around, Mr. Uhrin, at Mr.
Wereb. Look him in the face so there will be no faceless-informer
proceedings ?
Mr. Uhrin. I don't care to honor Mr. Wereb to look at him.
Mr. Arens. Why ? Do you think he is unreliable? Is he unreliable?
Mr. Uhrin. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Is he untruthful ?
Mr. Uhrin. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Did he lie when he laid his liberty on the line before
the committee and said he knew you as a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Uhrin. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, Mr. Wereb.
Do you know your counsel in any capacity other than in the capacity
of attorney and client ?
85333— 57— pt. 1 34
6662 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Uhrin. I know him as an attorney.
Mr. Arens. Is that the only manner in wliich you know him ?
Did you ever serve witli him in the Communist Party ?
Mr. t Jhrin. I refuse to answer on the same g'rounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to lay before you a letter to the
editor of the Daily People's World, signed by John Uhrin,
XJ-h-r-i-n, with respect to certain actions taken by the administrative
board of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
under date of July 14, 1955.
Kindl}^ look at that document and tell this committee whether or not
that is a true and correct reproduction of a letter which you sent to
the Communist Daily People's World.
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 443," see appendix, p. 7867.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Uhrin. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. You wouldn't be ashamed of any activity you took for
the uplift of humanity and for the rights of foreign born, would you,
unless there would be some conspiratorial nature to the operation?
Mr. Uhrin. The Constitution provides for the protection of every
citizen not to answer questions under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to lay before you a photostatic
copy of the Communist Daily People's World of March 22, 1955 :
Protest Against United States Border Terror May Go to U. N.
Outright repeal of the Walter-McCarran immigration and naturalization law
was demanded by 350 delegates to last week-end's fifth annual conference of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
It lists a number of people who are active in this organization and in
this movement, including a nationality leader by the name of John
Uhrin, U-h-r-i-n. John Uhrin.
Please look at that document and tell this committee whether or not
you are accurately described in that document,
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 444," see appendix, pp, 7867, 7868.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Uhrin, I decline to answer on the same grounds,
Mr. Arens. Now I have a photostatic copy of a delegate's registra-
tion card which has come into the custody of the Committee on Un-
American Activities, of the Fifth Annual Southern California Con-
ference
Mr. Chairman, may we have order.
Mr. Porter. Yes; it is very disturbing to hear Mr. Doyle and Mr.
Scherer talking.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest counsel be ad-
vised his sole and exclusive prerogatives are to advise his witness.
Mr. Porter. It is impossible to concentrate with this buzzing going
on over here.
Mr. DoYi>E. Try a little harder. Thank you very much.
Mr. Arens. We lay befoi-e you a photostatic copy of a registration
card: Fifth Annual Southern California Conference to Protect the
Ixights of Foreign Born [Americans], Saturday, March 19, 1955,
Alexandria Hotel, Los Angeles, bearing the name John Uhrin,
I"^-h-r-i-n, 737 Crenshaw Boulevard. And the organization that John
Uhrin re])i-esents here is the Hungarian Woi'kmons Home Society.
COMJVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6663
Please look at that card and tell this committee whether or not that
is a true and accurate description of your participation and if that is
your name on the card.
(Document iftarked "Exhibit No. 445," see appendix p. 7869.)
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States from
Hungar}^ ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. UiiRiK. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer that question.
Mr. DoYiJE. I am not satisfied with that answer as sufficient.
I direct you to answer that question. The United States Govern-
ment is entitled to know when you came to the United States.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERKR. If he doesn't answer that question, Mr. Chairman, I
am convinced that he is in contempt of this committee.
How could it possibly incriminate you to tell us when you came to
the United States ^
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Are you a naturalized citizen ?
Mr. Uhrin. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. When and where were you naturalized ?
Mr. Uhrin. In Los Angeles in 1928.
Mr. Scherer. How long had you been in this country before you
were naturalized ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Soherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. You were born in Hungary, and have been active
in Hungarian activities ?
Mr. Porter. I think there was a direction to answer, and Mr.
Scherer
Mr. Arens. I suggest counsel be advised that your sole and exclusive
prerogative in this proceeding is to advise your client.
Mr. Porter. I advise my client that he was not given an opportunity
to respond to the direction to answer made by the chairman, JNlr,
Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. You speak to him and not to us.
Mr. Porter. I am addressing him.
Mr. Doyle. Concentrate on him instead of on the committee.
Mr. Scherer. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we advise counsel
that any further outburst places him in contempt of this committee.
He is violating the rules of this committee, and if he persists I am
going to ask that counsel be cited for contempt.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. You understand the last question ?
Mr. Uhrin. Answering this question, T refuse to ansAvor on the
grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
6664 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Uhrix. I want to answer the question that was directed to me.
Mr. Doyle. All right.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Now I have another question.
Mr. Porter. Just a minute. He hasn't had an opportunity to
answer.
Mr. Uhrin. And I answer the negative, standing on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. Yery well.
Mr. ScHERER. You say you were born in Hungary. You have
been active in the affairs of Hungarian immigrants who have come
to this country, have you not ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Uhrix. I decline to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer that ques-
tion whether he has been active in the affairs of the
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. How could that
possibly incriminate you ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you are familiar with what happened in
Hungary in the last couple of months; are you not? To your fellow
countrymen ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my ques-
tion whether he is familiar with what happened in Hungary.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Uhrin. I stand on my constitutional grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Since the Russians have massacred your fellow Hun-
garians in the last few months, as has been reported in the press, have
you continued to remain a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Scherer. Do you denounce the Russians and the Communists
for their activities in Hungary ?
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Have you taken a public stand on that question?
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Are you through, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. It is unbelievable.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Wheeler, may I ask you to present to the witness
this book : Hungary's Fight For Freedom, a special report and pic-
tures in Life magazine.
And I call your attention to page 70 thereof, headed "The Murder
of a Country."
Massed Soviet forces returned to destroy the patriots and deport
them to slavery and drive them into exile. And here's a number of
pictures of slain Hungarians, slain by Communist bullets.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6665
I will ask you to look at that book and those pictures and see if you
recognize an}' of the locations where those people are lying murdered.
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Uhrin. Is this a congressional order ? You want me to
Mr. Doyle. I am asking you if you recognize any of the locations in
those pictures where you see Hungarian bodies lying in piles, killed by
Soviet bullets, Communist bullets.
Do you happen to recognize any of the buildings or streets where
those people are lying dead '^
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answ^er on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Doyle. I thought maybe you could further verify those
pictures from your personal knowledge of the geographical location.
Mr. ScHERER. This man isn't a Hungarian. He is a Communist.
Mr. DoYLE. Are there any other questions ?
Mr. Arens. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Witness, Mr. Wheeler will lay before you now proceedings of
the Fifth Annual Conference and of the Sixth Annual Conference to
Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims.
You will observe in each of these conferences you occupy a post of
great responsibility. One is as chairman of a panel of the nationalities
group, and tlie other a comparable position. You will observe also
that in the fifth annual conference all the recipients and participants
in the conference are urged to get a thousand prominent individuals
within their communities to write to their Congressmen urging re-
vision of the law, or to go into other organizations and urge other
organizations and delegates to even visit State assemblymen and State
senators, to write, to make speeches, and to raise $25,000, all for the
purpose of repealing certain provisions of the Walter-McCarran Im-
migration and Nationality Act.
Please look at those proceedings and see if you can verify for this
committee of the Congress whether or not you are accurately described
and whether or not those proceedings are accurately set forth.
(The witness examines documents.)
Mr. Uhrin. I decline to answer on the same grounds I previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Under what name were you naturalized in Los Angeles
in 1928? _
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Uhrin. John, the same as I am known by now. Never had a
different name,
Mr. Doyle. You had no different name in Hungary either ?
Mr. Uhrin. Never.
]VIr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask permission to
make a ])art of the record a news story from the front page of today's
Los Angeles Evening Herald-Express. It is an extra edition. And
it headlines "Red Tanks Mow Down Massed Hungarians. Many Die
in New TeiTor at Budapest."
I would like to offer this in evidence, as I have said, and ask that it
be made a part of the appendix.
6666 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. It will be so received.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 446," see appendix, p. 7870.)
Mr. ScHEKER. Mr. Chairman, I have no questions. But I make this
observation in view of this man's testimony, that the committee should
refer this matter to the Department of Justice to determine whether
or not denaturalization proceedings should be commenced, and, if
denaturalized, he be sent back to Hungary.
Mr. DoTLE. The committee stands in recess until 2 o'clock this
afternoon.
Mr. Porter. Is the witness excused ?
Mr. DoYT^E. Yes, the witness is excused.
(TV-liereupon, at 12 :15 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., this
same day. Committee members present: Representatives Doyle,
Velde, and Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— THURSDAY, DECEMBER 6, 1956
(The subcommittee was reconvened at 2 :10 p. m., at the expiration
of the recess. Committee members present: Representatives Doyle
and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order.
Remember the admonition of the United States marshal : no smok-
ing in the room.
And again I want to express appreciation to all those who were here
this morning who cooperated in keeping quiet' and making it
easy for the witnesses to testify and be heard. Aiid we will expect
the same cooperation this afternoon, of course.
The committee will be working rapidly this afternoon again, and
we may work late tonight. We will appreciate no disturbance of any
kind.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, before we proceed this afternoon, I
want to make a statement that I intended to make at the opening of
the hearings.
Congressman Donald L. Jackson, who represents a part of the Los
Angeles area and who is a member of this committee, was originally
scheduled, as you know, to be a member of this subcommittee. How-
ever, an assignment in Washington by the chairman of this commit-
tee prevents his attendance.
I wanted to make that statement for the record.
Mr. Doyle. May the record also show a quorum of the subcommittee
is present, Mr. Scherer and Chairman Doyle. Mr. Velde is tem-
porarily absent.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Charles Gladstone, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gladstone. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6667
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES GLADSTONE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Gladstone. May I ask the committee to please identify every-
one around this table ?
Mr. Doyle. No. They have been identified already in these hear-
ings. It is not necessary for you to know again. The conunittee is
here.
You know our counsel is Mr. Arens, who will question you.
And the reporter, clearly, is in front of you. You recognize his
function. Isn't that sufficient?
Mr. Gladstone. I specifically refer to the gentleman on the right.
Mr. DoTLE. He is a member of the staff.
Let's proceed and not take any more time unnecessarily.
Mr. Gladstone. May I ask for a copy of the rules so that I may be
acquainted with what the rules are ?
Mr. Doyle. You certainly may. I am sure your counsel has had
them for many months. Didn't you receive one ?
Mr. Gladstone. No, I did not.
Mr. Arens. Will you please identify yourself by name, residence,
and occupation?
Mr. Gladstone. Charles Gladstone, 5256 Marymont Drive.
Mr. Arens. In Los Angeles ?
Mr. Gladstone. Eight.
Mr. Arens. Your occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Gladstone. At this time I would like to say that, in view of
the setting that this committee hearing is held, I refuse to state my
occupation on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. What do you mean on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments?
Mr. Gladstone. On the grounds I refuse to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Arens. In what kind of proceeding?
Mr. Gladstone. In this proceeding.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee your
occupation you would be giving information that might be used
against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Gladstone. As I said, in view of the fact that the hearings,
the way they are held, and the circus method they are held, in view
of the fact I am here not on my own free will, and in view of the fact
that the way these hearings have been held so far, it seems to me that
I have to refuse this question because of whatever tyrannical or un-
constitutional, or whichever proceedings may be instituted against
me that I don't know, and for this reason I wish to invoke the first
and fifth amendments.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. In view of the witness' statement, Mr. Chairman, I
ask that you direct the witness to answer the question because ob-
viously that statement doesn't indicate a riglit to refuse to answer the
question.
Mr. DoTLE. We cannot accept your answer as sufficient, and I in-
struct you to answer the question.
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer on the same grounds that I stated
before — first and fifth amendments.
6668 COMIVITJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You are appearing here today, Mr. Gladstone, in re-
sponse to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities ?
(The witness confei-s with his counsel.)
Mr. (tladsi'One. And, of course, as I developed the grounds that I
stated before when I answered the question.
Mr. Arens. Tell the committee, are you appearing today in response
to a subpena which was served upon you ?
Mr. Gladstone. Evidently.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Gladstone. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter, Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Gladstone, do you know a man by the name of
Stephen Wereb ?
Mr. Gladstone. As I stated before, I refuse to answer that question
on the same grounds that I previously stated, as I developed the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb took an oath this morning and laid his
liberty on the line. If he lied to this committee he could be subject to
prosecution for perjury. He swore that while he was in the Com-
munist conspiracy as an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation he knew you as a Communist.
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Gladstone. I must refuse to answer the sanie question as I did
before on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. May I make it clear to the witness, when you say you
must decline, as far as this committee is concerned we don't think you
must decline. It is your constitutional privilege to do it if you give
constitutional reasons.
When you say you must decline I want to make it clear to you
that the committee doesn't recognize that as a valid ground.
You may decline if you give your constitutional reasons, which we
recognize, of course.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Gladstone. My conscience requires me to decline this answer.
Mr. Doyle. We are glad you have a conscience.
Mr. Gladstone. I do on the grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Witness, do you, in a status or relationship
other than in the status of attorney and client, know as a Communist
a man by the name of John Porter?
Mr. Porter. Mr. Chairman, I want the record to show that counsel
for the witnesses subpenaed before this committee today have sub-
mitted to the Chair a statement in writing objecting to the placing of
any such question to the witnesses before this committee.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, if Mr. Porter wants to testify before
this committee I respectfully suggest he be administered an oath at the
present time so we can ask him a few questions.
Mr. Porter. As a matter of personal privilege, as a member of the
bar appearing here as counsel for a witness who has a right to counsel,
and the right to the choice of counsel without interference or attempt
to intimidate on the part of this committee or its counsel, I demand
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6669
of the chairman a direction to the committee's counsel to withdraw
that question and all similar questions in the future.
Mr. Aren8. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that counsel, if
he wants to continue making his speech, subject himself to an oath
before this committee so he can be interrogated.
The question was not any question with reference to a relationship
between attorney and client. The question was solely and exclusively
whether or not this witness knows a John Porter who is a member
of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Porter. Any such question is obviously unconstitutional and
an illegitimate attempt to interfere with the right of the witness to
have counsel of his own choice without comment, characterization or
attempt on the part of anybody, including this committee, to intimi-
date him or to influence him in the choice of counsel.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly submit himself to an oath before
the committee? He is not under subpena. I respectfully suggest
counsel do so.
Mr. Porter. Counsel is here as counsel. He has a right to be here
as counsel. He has a duty to perform as counsel, and I intend to dis-
charge that duty.
Mr. Arens. Under the rules of this committee, the only duty and
privilege of counsel is to advise his client of his constitutional rights.
Mr. Porter. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, if this question is not
withdrawn I am going to advise the committee that, because my client
cannot be given the full freedom of his right to counsel under these
circumstances, that I shall ask to withdraw as counsel for this witness
at this time.
Mr. Arens. There has been no suggestion at all. He can hire every
Communist lawyer he wants to.
Mr. Porter. I shall ask the chairman to excuse the witness from
the witness stand until he has an opportunity to secure other counsel
who will not be so interfered with.
Mr. Scherer. I move the witness be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. May I say to the marshal : Anyone from here on
that is observed making a demonstration either of approval or dis-
approval, without further direction from me, will be immediately
removed from, the room.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. A. L. WiRiN. May I address the Chair ?
Mr. Doyle. No ; you may not. You are not a part of this proceeding.
Mr. WiRiN. On the memorandum submitted to you, may I be heard
on that ?
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Doyle, I ask for the regular order. If these
gentlemen persist I am going to ask that the marshal remove them
bodily from the room. Eitlier we are going to run these hearings or
these gentlemen are.
Mr. WiRiN. May I offer my services to this witness, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. Please sit down and not try to inject yourself into this
situation, Mr. Wirin.
Mr. Scherer. I am tired of these Communist lawyers violating
the
Mr. Gladstone. I wish to be excused at this present time. And I
wish to secure counsel that will not be interfered with.
6670 coMMUisrisT political subversion
Mr. DoT7.E. Your counsel is not being interfered witli in my judg-
niont. And you are instructed to answer the last question.
Mr. Gladstone. I am sorry, Mr, Chairman. Obviously the question
that was placed before me is the kind of a question that prevents me
from
Mr. Doyle. How do you answer that question? How do you
answer it?
Mr. Gladstone. I cannot answer this question at the present mo-
ment. I would like to have counsel to be able to consult with and
obviously this committee is not giving me that kind of a cliance.
Mr. DoTLE. What is the last question, please ?
Mr. Arens. The outstanding question, Mr. Chairman, is whether
or not this witness knows a Communist by the name of John Porter.
And I preface tlie question by excluding from any knowledge upon
which he could base an answer any relationship of attorney and client.
Mr. Doyle. What is your answer to the question ?
Mr. Gladstone. I wish to read from the rules of this committee, on
page 3. I think it is article VII :
Advice of counsel :
At every hearing, public or executive, every witness shall be accorded the
privilege of having counsel of his own choosing.
The participation of counsel during the course of any hearing and while the
witness is testifying shall be limited to advising said witness as to his legal
rights. Counsel shall not be permitted to engage in oral argument with the
committee, but shall confine his activity to the area of legal advice to his client.
I am not given a chance to consult with my comisel.
Mr. D0YI.E. Yes, you consulted with your attorney before you came
here, and you have consulted throughout these hearings. As a matter
of fact, you are consulting right now with him, which is right.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DoYLE. You have had the privilege of selecting counsel. We
will proceed with the hearing. You are instructed to answer the
question.
Mr. Gladstone. But I am not given a chance to consult with my
counsel.
Mr. Doyle. Go right ahead and consult with him. You are sitting
within 1 foot of him.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Chairman, this question is interference with
my free choice of counsel, and obviously I don't see how I can answer
that kind of a question.
Mr. Doyt.e. It hasn't interfered with your free choice of counsel
because j^ou chose him and brought him to the hearing room with
you. Now proceed and answer the question. Don't stall any longer,
please.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Sciierer. Let's get to the next question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Witness, there is being displayed to you by Mr.
Wheeler a photostatic reproduction of a letterhead of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born for the year 1954.
Please look at that exhibit on which your name appears as a
sponsor of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
COMMTJXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6671
and tell this committee whether or not you are accurately identified
in thai status vritli that organization.
(See exhibit No. 433, appendix, p. 7858.)
(The witness examines documents.)
Mr. Arens. Would you please answer the question.
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds I
have previously stated, as I developed the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to lay before you excerpts from
the proceedings of the Southern California Conference To Defend
the Rights of Foreign Born Americans, February 7, 1953, held by
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. The
document contains a list of sponsors, and I observe your name —
Charles Gladstone — listed as one of the sponsors and also as a member
of two committees.
Kindly look at that document and tell this committee whether or
not you are accurately described there.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 447," see appendix, pp. 7870,
7871.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer this question on the same
grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Arens. You have been active in other affairs, have you not?
I see in the Communist Daily Worker of September 1948: 1100
Unionists Hit Indictment of Communists.
This article tells about a number of people who are protesting the
indictment of the 12 Communist traitors, including a person identified
as Mr. Charles Gladstone, business agent, ILGWTJ, Local 65.
Look at that, please, as Mr. Wheeler displays it to you, and tell the
committee whether or not that is an accurate presentation of the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 448," see appendix, p. 7872.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer this question on the same
grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now" I have here a publication. This is a publication
of the Peoples Educational Center back in 1947, in which a number
of people are listed on the board of directors of this Peoples Educa-
tional Center in Hollywood. And a number of people are listed as
the professors.
Among those professors who are going to appear at this educational
school is a Charles Gladstone who is to speak on certain phases of
labor activity in the United States.
Kindly look at this document and see if it was really accurate.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 449a, b," see appendix, pp. 7873,
7874.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Arens. And while he is looking at that, Mr. Wlieeler, will you
please hand him the announcement of the fall term of this Communist
People's Educational Center, in which you are again listed as one of
the professors to speak on principles of trade unionism, a practical
approach to certain strategies of trade unionism.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Please look at that document, too.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 450a, b," see appendix, pp. 7875,
7876.)
(The witness examines document.)
6672 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Gl^vdstone. You seem to be obviously very familiar with stool-
pi freon tactics and doeunients. I am not.
Mr. Arens. Is that a stool-pigeon document?
Mr. Gladstoxe. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Is it truthful ?
Mr. Gladstone. Let me finish,
Mr. Arens. Surely. Go riglit ahead.
Mr. Gladstone. I am not in accord with the same position that the
counsel is taking. But, however, I wish to decline to answer that ques- .
tion on the grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Arens. "VMiere were you born ?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Porter. I suggest that counsel wait until the witness can finish
his answer before he asks another question.
Mr. Arens. Your sole and exclusive prerogative, at least in this
hearing, is to advise your client with respect to his constitutional
rights.
Mr. DoYi.E. Mr. Gladstone, we can't accept that answer as sufficient,
and I instruct you to answer the question, where were you born ?
Nothing can incriminate you because you were born, can it?
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gladstone. I answer that on the same grounds I previously
stated.
Mr. Doyle. You understood I am directing you to answer notwith-
standing ?
Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Chairman, I stand on my position as I stated
before, and I do not wish to discuss it.
Mr. Doyle. Were you born in the United States ?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. D0YI.E. Are you naturalized ?
Mr. Gladstone. On the same ground.
Mr. DoYLE. Are you a naturalized citizen ?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question whether or not
you are a naturalized citizen.
Mr. Gladstone. I believe under the Constitution I have a right
to be silent just as much as I have a right to free speech.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you think if you answer that
Mr. Gladstone. And I am including in it my right to the fifth
amendment and to all the amendments of the Constitution.
I believe that this committee is taking unto itself rights that have
not been granted to it according to the 9th and 10th amendments of
the Constitution.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, let me clearly understand you.
Do I understand you to take the position that if you answered the
question as to whether you were bom in the United States or are a
naturalized American citizen it might incriminate you?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I
stated before.
Mr. Doyle. I again am instructing you to answer that question.
COMMILSriST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6673
Mr. Gladstone. And again I am refusing to answer on the same
grounds because
Mr. ScHERER. It is obvious to me, Mr. Chairman, the witness is
clearly in contempt if he doesn't answer that question.
Mr. DoTLE, Certainly he is.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff in-
terrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoTLE. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever use any name other than Gladstone?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
I previously stated.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Gladstone. I stand on the same grounds as I did before.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Charles Young?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Why, you used the name of Charles Young in the Com-
munist conspiracy, didn't you ?
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you are right now a Communist and a member of the
Communist conspiratorial apparatus.
Mr. Gladstone. I refuse to answer it on the same grounds I pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Counsel, does the record show where this witness
was born?
Mr. Arens. Xo, sir. We do not have that information.
Mr. Scherer. We certainly have the right then to ask it.
Mr. Arens. I think there is no question but what the Congressman
is eminently correct on that,
Mr. Doyle. I suggest that we take steps to find out where he was
born.
INIr. Scherer. I am going to move that he be cited for contempt.
Mr. Doyle. I will back you in it.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr,
Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. That is all. Witness.
Mr. Arens. 1 beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman. We do have a no-
tation he was born in Russia.
Mr. Scherer. Then obviously his name is not Gladstone.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairaian, the next witness, if you please, is Mr,
Frank J. Whitley.
Mr. D0Y1.E. May I recall the witness, please.
Mr, Porter, may I recall your witness, please, and you, for one ques-
tion. He is right there in front of you.
Mr. Porter. I understood he was excused, Mr, Doyle,
Mr, Doyle. Yes ; you are quite correct.
You stayed in the hearing room, and so did he. And it is not a mat-
ter of great inconvenience for you to step up here a few feet while I
ask the witness one more question.
Is it too inconvenient ?
Mr. Porter. It is not a question of inconvenience. It is a question
of this committee arrogating to itself authority which it does not
possess.
6(374 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Gladstone. The questions are improper.
Mr. Doyle. I hope it is not improper for me to ask you to come back
a few feet and answer one more question.
If you were in a hurry to go out, you didn't leave the room.
Now, Mr. Young or Mr. Gladstone, whichever your name is, our in-
formation is that you were born in Eussia. Is that true or false?
Mr. Gi^DSTOXF,. I answered that question before, and I stand on the
same question, the same way I answered it before.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to ansAver the question.
Mr. Gladstone. On the same grounds. I refuse to answer it on the
same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Assuming our information is correct and that you were
born in Russia, are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr. Gladstone. I said before that I refuse to answer that question
on the grounds that I previously stated.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Gladstone. I still refuse on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. Thank you.
Mr. ScuERER. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. ScHEKER. Mr. Chairman, I move that this subcommittee rec-
ommend to the full committee that the testimony of this witness be
referred to the Department of Justice to determine whether or not
denaturalization proceedings should not be commenced against this
individual.
Mr. Doyle. Have the record show that motion. And when the full
committee is in session a recommendation will be made.
Thank you, Mr. Porter and Mr.
Mr. Porter. Is the witness now excused, Mr, Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Porter.
Mr. Arens. Frank J. Whitley, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Whitley. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK J. WHITLEY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
EDWARD C. MADDOX
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Whitley. Frank J. Whitley, Los Angeles. My business is real-
estate broker.
Mr. Arens. Where?
Mr. Whitley. Here in Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. The name of the firm, please, sir ?
Mr. Whitley. Rising Sun.
Mr. Arens. You are appearin^today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. Whitley. I didn't understand that.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6675
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Maddox. My name is Edward C. Maddox.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, may I make a statement now to save
time, in the interest of saving time ?
Mr. Doyle. Let's wait until you are asked a question, Mr. Maddox.
Mr. Arens. Do vou know a man by the name of Stephen Wereb,
W-e-r-e-b?
Mr. Whitley. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment, hrst and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb this morning took an oath before tliis
committee and said that while he was underground in the Communist
Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation he knew
you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Whitley. I refuse to answer that question.
I would like to make a statement here, too — why I refuse to answer.
Mr. Doyle. If it is brief and based upon your constitutional priv-
ilege, go ahead.
Mr. Whitley. In the interest of saving time here.
My people have been persecuted and oppressed and mistreated for
a long time by such organizations as the White Citizens Council
and
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Whitley
Mr. Whitley. And KKK.
Mr. Doyle. We can't permit this to be a forum for any racial
problems to be brought up.
So proceed, Mr. Arens, with the next question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Whitley, Mr. Wlieeler is going to display to
you a signature card on the Fifth Annual Southern California Con-
ference to Protect the Rights of Foreign-Born Americans, held Satur-
day, March 19, 1955, at the Alexandria Hotel, Los Angeles, signed
Frank J. Whitley.
Please look at this signature card. And, according to the card,
Frank J. Wliitley represented the Negro Labor Council.
Please look at that signature card as Mr. Wlieeler displays it to you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 451," see appendix, p. 7877.)
Mr. Whitley. Did you say protect the rights of foreign-born
citizens?
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. WnrTLEY. Did you say to protect the rights of foreign-born
citizens ?
Mr. Arens. That is riglit; yes, sir. Look at that card and tell us
if you were interested in or attended that congress.
Mr. Whitley. I am only interested in protecting the rights of the
American Negro in the South and Mississippi and Georgia and hei-e.
I have lived many a year, and this has been one of the greatest failures
of the Congress. And this committee is an un-American committee,
supposed to be. And the un-American things going on right now is
the lynching of my people and driving them from schools.
6676 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Are you concerned with discrimination by the Com-
munist conspiracy a'irainst the ricrhts of individuals?
Mr. WiiiTiJCY. 1 am talking about the Negro being mistreated and
of this Congress, if this thing is for the purpose of un-American ac-
tivities. That is what I am interested in.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Whitley, please look at the exhibit and answer the
question asked you by counsel.
Mr. Whitley. You mean this?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Tell us whether or not that is your signature.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Air. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mr. Whitley. You expect me to answer questions of this kind, do
you?
Mr. Arens. We only want you to tell us whether or not that is
your signature.
Mr. Whitley. I refuse on the grounds that you are invading my
rights.
JNIr. Arens. No, we are not invading anyone's rights.
Mr. Whitley. On the basis of the fifth amendment to the Consti-
tution.
Mr. Arens. If you feel the answer to these questions, if truthfully
given, would give information which could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding, you have a right to invoke the fifth amendment.
Do you honestly feel that an answer to this question, the last prin-
cipal question, if truthfully given, would give information which might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Whitley. I think if this group was interested in un-American
activities they would be in Mississippi right now.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question .
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer.
Mr. Whitley. I just answered it. I said on the basis of the fifth
amendment, I refuse to answer. What else can I say ?
Mr. Arens. We want to show you the proceedings of this con-
ference.
Mr. Whitley. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Tlie proceedings said one A\niitley got up and made a
speech — I will not read all the language here — made a speech urging
the people to go into the churches for the cause of the Southern Cali-
fornia Conference and its advocates.
Glance at that resume tliere and see if that is a true and accurate
presentation of your participation in that conference.
Would you just tell the committee? You certainly wouldn't be
ashamed of anything you did for the uplift of humanity and for civil
rights and for the foreign born, would you ?
Mr. Whitley. Did you say ashamed ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. You wouldn't be ashamed of that, would you ?
Mr. Whitley. You are the one that should be ashamed being here
today. Speaking of being ashamed, I'm not ashamed. I was born
here.
Mr. Arens. If you are not ashamed, why don't you tell us?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6677
Mr. Whitley. Both of my parents were slaves here in America, and
I liave been persecuted ever since the day of my birth.
And this committee or no other committee has taken up my cause.
Mr. Arens. Are you concerned about the slave labor behind the
Iron Curtain? Have you been worried about that ? Twenty million
slave laborers behind the Iron Curtain? Were you worried about
that?
Mr. Whitley. Are you worried about the keeping the kids out of
school in Mississippi and Tennessee ?
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question.
Mr. Whitley. What is your question ?
Mr. Arens. The outstanding question is : Did you address the con-
ference in the terms set forth ?
Mr. Whitley. On the basis of the first and fifth amendments, I re-
fuse to answer that.
Mr. Arens. Are you now, right now, a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. Whitley. On the basis of the first and fifth amendments, I
refuse to answer. And, otherwise, I think it is none of your business
or anyone else's business what party or club or anything else I belong
to. The Constitution of the United States is what I am talking about.
Mr. Arens. Do you think it is a legitimate concern of the Congress
of the United States to investigate and explore subversion forces that
are working to destroy the Government of the United States under
an alien control, a conspiracy ? Do you think that is any concern of
the Government ?
Mr. Whitley. When I see the Congress of the United States pro-
tecting its citizens, then I am all for it. But when I see them further
oppressing me, then I am against it.
And I am not answering any questions according to my affiliation ,
or what I belong to or anything like that, on the basis of the first and
fifth amendments to the United States Constitution.
Mr. Arens. And are you a member of an organization that is
dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States ?
Mr. Whitley. You ought to be ashamed to ask that kind of question
tome.
Mr. Arens. If it isn't so why don't you stand up like a patriotic
American w^hile you are under oath and deny it ?
Mr. Whitley. I can stand up.
Mr. Arens. All right. Stand up then while you are under oath
and deny you are now a member of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Whitley. That is none of your business what organization,
political party or church that I belong to.
Mr. SciiEiiER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Doyle. You are directed to answ^er.
Mr. Whitley. On the basis of the first and fifth amendments of
the United States Constitution, I refuse to answer.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. So the United States Government is
protecting you and your constitutional rights. f*
Mr. Whitley. They are killing me and my people all over this
country, and you know it. And you know it.
85333 — 57 — pt. 1 35
6678 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. What? They are killing you and all your people?
Mr. Whitley. What about Enimett Till ? What about Mr. Moor©
in Florida a few years ago ? And I don't have to go that far. I caii
start right in Los Angeles. The same thing is happening.
Mr. Doyle. You don't charge the United States Government with
killing?
Mr. Whitley. For doing nothing about it. That is why I charge
thenu
]Mr. Doyle. But I deny your statement, sir. The United States
Government has done everything it could in the Till case to dis-
cover— it ascertained there was no transporting across State lines.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. It's been 90 years since Abraham Lincoln
signed the I-i^mancipation Proclamation. They are begging to go to
scliool in Texas even, right here by us. What are you doing? You
are .searching for some subversion you talk about.
Mr. Arens. Is there some subversion you know about ? Is there
a conspirational a})paratus that you know about?
Mr. Whitley. In Mississippi. That is subversion.
Mr. Arexs. Tell us whether or not there is subversion you know
about. Is there a Communist conspiracy that you are part and parcel
of ?
Mr. Whitley. The Communist conspiracy that you know about is
what I am talking about.
Mr. Arens. That is what I am talking about. Are you a member
of that conspiracy ?
Mr. Whitley. Are you a member of that conspiracy ?
Mr. Arens. No, and I wouldn't hesitate to stand up under oatli
and deny it.
Mr. Whitley. As a Negro, you ought to be ashamed to ask me
to talk about anything.
Mr. Arens. Just tell us, are you a Communist ?
Mr. Whitley. I refuse to answer any of your questions on my
affiliations, on the basis of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Sanford Goldner, please come forward.
Mr. DoYLK. Mr. Marslial, if you know who made that applause,
please eject them from the room.
You are here as guests of the committee. If you can't respect the
courtesy we are extending to you, I ask you to leave the room.
Marshal please eject the next person you see make any applause or
disap])i-oval. We want neither.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mv. GoEDNER. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SANFORD GOLDNER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
NATHAN L. SCHOICHET
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6679
Mr. (loLDXEK. My name is Sanford Goldner. My residence is 3209
Silverado Drive, Los Angeles. My training is as a teacher.
Mr. Arens. Your occupation at the present time, please.
(The witness confei-s with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. Counselor, I feel that within the framework of this
hearing that the answering of that question affirmatively or negatively
would place me in jeopardy, and I therefore fall back on my privileges
under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. What do you mean place you in jeopardy? Do you
mean you would be giving information that could be used against you
in a criminal proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. I am advised by counsel, and I have reason to believe
because of the setting up of this committee that the entire purpose of
the committee is to involve me in jeopardy. And, therefore, I fall
back within my rights under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. "What kind of jeopardy are you talking about ? Do you
honestly feel that if you answered this question as to your employment
you would be giving information that might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Goldner. Mr. Counselor, I am advised by my counsel that the
entire line of questioning is to place me in jeopardy, and therefore that
I am not required to testify against myself.
Mv. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest
Mr. Goldner. I should like to state, however, that, having given this
legal reason and having been a spectator here this morning, I should
like to offer one more reason for declining to place myself in jeopardy.
I sat here listening to the remarks of the chairman as to the purpose
of the meeting. He declared at one point it was not the purpose of
this committee to discuss the merits of legislation, and then went on
to say that he would expose — the purpose was to expose those who
w^anted to strip certain laws of their provisions relating to certain
administrative procedures and, he put it, the deportation of aliens who
are Communist agents.
Now when I was first appraised that one of the subpenas to one of
the witnesses contained language urging her to bring leaflets and other
documents designed to revise and repeal the Walter-McCarran and
othei- acts, I could not believe it because here, for the first time, the
committee has gone beyond association and ideas, to attempt to prevent
people from influencing legislation.
The chairman disavowed this aim, and then went to repeat it today.
I think it is quite clear that great masses of Americans oppose the
procedural aspects of the Walter-McCarran Act, their reference to
due process of law, the reduction of foreign-born to second-class citi-
zens. Even President Eisenhower has called for revisions of these
provisions.
And I am forced to conclude, with the New York Times, that one
of the fundamental purposes of this inquiry is to prevent the revision
and repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act. And because
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
6680 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. GoLDNER. Finally, if I may
Mr. ScHOiCHET. Let him finish.
Mr. GoLDNER. I am one sentence from my conclusion.
Mr. Doyle. I have permitted you now to go far beyond your con-
stitutional objections and to use this as your forum for your remarks.
I think you will agree that you have had these few minutes to do that.
I want to ask this question, if I may :
You volunteered the information that you have been a teacher. That
certainly is your occupation. You volunteered that very clearly.
The record will show. Then in the next question, when you were
asked your present occupation, you claim the constitutional provisions.
Do I understand that when you were a teacher you were not afraid
of incriminating yourself, but now in your present occupation, even
though you volunteered your training, that you are declining to
answer the question because you are in fear of incriminating your-
self in your present occupation?
Is that what I understand your position to be ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. Well, I am advised by my counsel that, within my
rights under the Constitution, I am privileged to state the grounds
on which I answer certain questions and the way in which I answer
them.
And I am advised by him to request you, if you will permit me, to
finish the original statement that I had begun to make which explains
my reasons for not answering.
Mr. Arens. Pardon the interruption.
So we will know the source of the statement, tell us whether or not
you are a Communist.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DoiXE. Let's proceed if you have had your counsel.
Mr. Arens. Would you please answer the question ?
Mr. Doyle. Please proceed.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist? Let us get that issue
settled first.
Are you now a Communist?
Mr. Goldner. Yes, my counsel advises me
Mr. Arens. You said "Yes"? Did I understand you to say "Yes"?
Mr. ScHOicHET. No, you didn't understand him.
Mr. DoYLE. He meant
Mr. Goldner. Perhaps I should have said "however." That was a
conjunction.
My counsel advises me that the whole setting of the hearing, which
I have had a chance to bear out for myself, is the fact that Mr. Scherer
sits by as lord high executioner
Mr. Doyle, Go ahead and answer the question. I have given you
plenty of time to make it a forum for your speech, but I am not going
to give you any more time.
Mr. Goldner. I want to explain the jeopardy I find myself in.
Mr. Doyle. I understand. Go ahead and answer the question.
Mr. Goldner. The fact that those who are vulnerable because they
are born across the seas are asked that question, and persons who are
not vulnerable are not asked that question, all this thing conspires to
make me feel I am in jeopardy.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6681
On the basis of the first and fifth amendments, I decline to answer
that question.
Mr. Arens. Now for the record, if you please, sir, your counsel's
name.
Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. ScHOiciiET. Nathan L. Schoichet, S-c-h-o-i-c-h-e-t, attorney,
Beverly Hills.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Goldner, have you always used the name of Goldner,
or do you use some other name ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. Well, sir, basically, within my legal rights — I shall
fall back upon my legal rights, but I cannot refrain from commenting
upon the fact that unless the question refers to my academic title,
which I frequently use or is used by others, that there is an insinuation
in the question
Mr. Arens. What is the academic title ?
Mr. Goldner. The academic title is a matter of record.
Mr. Arens. Tell us. What is the academic title ?
Mr. Goldner. There aren't very many academic titles.
Mr. Arens. Give us one of them.
Mr. Goldner. I trust in the imagination of the counsel.
Mr. Arens. Let's don't trust to my imagination.
You told us about your academic title. Tell us what that is.
Mr. Goldner. I am a doctor of philosophy.
Mr. Arens. And where did you acquire that degree of doctor of
philosophy ?
Mr. Goldner. Well, that is a matter of public record.
Mr. Arens. Well, tell us. You couldn't be hurt too badly by telling
us. Where did you acquire this degree of doctor of philosophy?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. At the University of California, in Berkeley.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. In 1941.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Stephen Wereb ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. I am advised by counsel that the answer to this ques-
tion will put me in jeopardy, and I therefore fall back upon my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.
I do also declare that it was a deterioration of American democracy
to a low point when people are put in public and asked to identify
their associations or their ideas, A low point that was reached.
Mr. Arens. How about if they are asked to identify Communist
traitors ?
Mr. Goldner. A low point was reached 2 years ago, but fortunately
it is receding with the courts catching up with the practices inherent
in Mr. Wereb. Anything I can do to hasten tliat process I will be
glad to do it.
Mr. ScHERER. Let's get the answer.
Mr. Goldner. I prefaced my answer, namely, to the effect I relied
on the protections of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. ScnERER. Did Wereb, when he testified al)Out you lie ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
6682 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUB\'ERSION
Mr. GoLDNER. I decline to answer that on the basis of tlie fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Doctor, after you got your doctor of philosophy degree
did you put your education to use on behalf of the foreign born of
the community ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. I am informed by my counsel that the purpose of
the inquiry is to furnish testimony against myself, and that my rights
within the Constitution, particularly under the fifth amendment, do
not require me to do this.
Mr. Arens. Now, Doctor, Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you
a pliotostatic copy of a letterhead of the Los Angeles (^omniittee for
Protection of Foreign Born, and on this letterhead for the year 1954
you are listed as one of the sponsors.
Please look at that letterhead and tell this conimittee whether you
are properly and accurately described. Doctor, as a sponsor of the
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 433, appendix, p. 7858.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. I decline to answer this question on the grounds pre-
viously stated, my rights w'ithin the first and fifth amendments of the
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Now, Doctor, we have an excerpt or summary of one
of your speeches on philosophy.
You said you were a Ph. D., doctor of philosophy.
It is an exhibit in which, at one of the panel sessions of the Con-
ference for the Repeal of the Smith Act — that is the anti-Communist
act against the traitors — and the McCarran — that is the Internal
Security Act — you made a speech.
Mr. Wheeler, would you please show the Doctor the excerpts from
his speech in which he is attacking the anti-Communist provisions
of the Smith Act and the Internal Security Act, and see if that re-
freshes the Doctor's recollection with reference to his oration.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Where was that speech made. Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. It was held in Los Angeles, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. GoLDNER. Would you repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Kindly look at that document and see if that refreshes your recol-
lection with reference to your oration, Doctor, in which you roundly
condemned the anti-Communist Smith Act and the Internal Security
Act, and called for their repeal.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goi>DNER. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds,
though T disagree with the phrasing of the question as submitted to me.
Mr. Arens. You don't think the Internal Security Act and the
Smith Act are anti-Communist legislation; is that correct. Doctor?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. On the grounds previously stated and because I feel
that the circumstances don't permit discussion of questions on their
merits — as a matter of fact, the chairman has said they are not to be
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6683
•discussed on their merits, but simply for purposes of labeling — I
decline to
Mr, Doyle. Just a minute. I didn't so state. The record will show
what I stated. And you are not permitted to state thinos I didn't
state. The record will show what I stated. I will stand on the record.
Mr. GoLDNER. ]3ecause this is not the occasion to discuss the merits
of legislation, and, as a matter of fact, is set up solely to identify and
label
Mr. Arens. To identify and label whom ?
Mr. GoLDNER. Persons in positions rather than the merits-
Mr. Arens. As what, Doctor? We are not labeling people as
doctors. We are labeling those people who are identified by live wit-
nesses undei- oath as members of the Communist conspiratorial ap-
paratus, and you know it ; isn't that true. Doctor ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. Yes; I am advised by counsel to note that the very
method in which the questions are put — and, I may add, having par-
ticipated in many discussions — with the very obvious difference be-
tween inquiry into the determination of truth and inquiry for the
purpose of punitive action, that I have been placed in jeopardy by my
mere presence and by the questions, and I therefore fall back upon
my rights under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Doctor, when you made this speech attacking the
internal-security laws of the United States, did the people whom
you Avere addressing at that time know that you were a member of the
Communist Party ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. GoLDNER. My counsel informs me that Mr. Scherer's question
as.sumes facts not in evidence and he ought to know better than that.
Mr, ScHERER. Let me ask you then. Were you at the time you made
this speech a member of the Communist Party ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Of course, it is in evidence that he was a Communist.
Wereb i den ti fied him.
Mr. SciiERER. His lawyer doesn't know that, though. He isn't
familiar with the record. He should be if he is advising him.
Mr. SoiioTciiET. Is this remark addressed to me, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. SciiERER. I ask, Mr. Chairman, that you instruct the witness
to answer the question.
Mr. ScHOiciTET. Find out what the question is.
Mr. GoLDNER. I think I remember the question. It is a repetition
of the question.
I at that time did and do now state that I fall back on my constitu-
tional privileges, and I can only assume that the repetition of a ques-
tion already asked and answered within Mr. Scherer's presence is
another effort to entra]) me in some kind of legal proceeding, which
I am relying on my attorney not to entrap me in.
Mr. SciiERER. You know, do you not, that Mr. Wereb identified you
as a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
6684 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. GoLDNER. I have already answered this question.
Mr. ScHERER. You have not answered that question. It is a ques-
tion of whetlier you had knowledge of the fact that Mr. Wereb iden-
tified you as a member of the Communist Party. To answer that
question you can't possibly incriminate yourself.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. GoLDNER. I am advised to ask you whether you are acting as
my counsel in this.
Mr. ScHERER. Now, Mr. Chairman, counsel — I am not trying to
hear what he said, but he talks loudly, and counsel has been continu-
ously violating the rules of this committee by not advising his client
solely as to his constitutional rights, but he has been telling him every-
thing to say.
That is a clear violation of the rules of this committee, and counsel,
by so doing, has been in contempt of this committee.
Mr. SciioiCHET. May I respond to that, Mr. Chairman ?
This is an outrageous procedure.
Mr. Doyle. May I suggest. Counsel, that in your advice to your
client do not talk so loudly because we all can hear you. And we
haven't mentioned it before, but I too, have heard you tell him
to state that he objects to the committee member harassing and so
forth. I have heard you state that. And you can't deny that is
what you have said, Counsel.
Mr. ScHOiCHET. I am agreeable that you hear what I say.
Mr. Doyle. I know. But I suggest that you be a little more quiet
in your advice to your client.
We are glad any witness has counsel. But you haven't realized the
close proximity in which we sit and that you have a voice that carries.
Mr. Schoichet. I realize it.
Mr. ScHERER. Let's not get away from my question.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Were you present when Wereb testified ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Goldner. My attorney advises me to answer the question in
this wise, that if your question refers to a person who was introduced
this morning as Mr. Wereb and made certain statements, to respond
that I was present in the room at the time those statements were
made.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear him testify ?
Mr. Goldner. I don't understand that.
(The witness confers with his counsel) .
Mr. Goldner. I thought my answer was implicit in the previous
question.
Mr. Scherer. I am not a doctor of philosophy ; so you can answer
it. I am just dumb.
Mr. Goldner. Well, I will reserve comment on that. The answer
is that I heard him.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear him identify you as a member of the
Communist I\irty ?
(The Avitness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. My answer is that I heard him and that if there are
any further questions as to the substance of this testimony that I de-
cline to answer on the basis of my rights under the first and fifth
amendments.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6685
Mr. Sgherer. When you heard him under oath identify you as a
member of the Communist Party was this man, whom you now so
violently condemn, telling the truth?
You liave an opportunitv to tell us now whether he was telling the
truth.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Air. SciiEREK. If you say he Avas lying, then I am going to ask that
his testimony be referred to the Department of Justice for investiga-
tion to determine whether he was committing perjury. And, of
course, yours along with it.
Mr. GoLDNER. Counsel requests me to ask you whether you have
completed your question before I answer.
Mr. SciiEREK. I will repeat my question.
When Wereb identified you under oath as a member of a Communist
conspiracy was he telling the committee the truth?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER, I am advised to respond to the question that this in-
quiry seeks to have me furnish testimony against myself.
And I, therefore, decline to do this on the basis of my rights within
the Constitution, particularly the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Coming back then to my original question, when you
made this speech attacking the internal security laws of the United
States did the people who listened to you at that time know that you
were a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNEK. My counsel urges me to say that your question again
assumes facts not in evidence, and that 3'ou ought to know better than
that.
Mr. ScHERER. ]Mr. Chairman, 1 ask you direct the witness to an-
swer my question.
Mr. Doyle. I so direct you, Witness.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
]\[r. Scherer. I might advise you that your counselor is grossly in
error because the sworn testimony of Wereb, which is part of the evi-
dence in this case, is that you were a member of the Communist Party.
So it is in evidence. So my question is perfectly proper.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. I am advised that I am being questioned concerning
a document which has just now been introduced, and that to testify
to it
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Goldner. And that I haven't testified to it. And, further,
that to testify to it would put me in jeopardy, and I therefore rely
upon my rights.
Mr, Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. Which question is that ?
Mr. Doyle. Would you please read the last question.
Mr. Scherer. I will repeat it. The question is at the time you
made this speech attacking the internal security laws of the United
6686 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
States whether or not tlie people to Avhom you made the speech knew
you were a member of the Communist conspiracy.
(The witness confers with his counseL)
Mr. GoLDNER. If that is a valid question, I decline to answer it
on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Very well.
Mr. Arexs. "We have a number of exhibits here. To save time I
am ^oing to ask Mr. Wheeler to display all of them to you. They
are with reference to a number of conferences or rallies held in the
Los Angeles area for the repeal of the Internal Security Act, the Im-
migration and Nationality Act, Communist Control Act, and com-
parable legislation. Each of these is a reproduction of the original
proceedings of the various organizations with which you are affiliated.
We also submit to you a number of resolutions which were adopted
by these conferences. And you will observe in these various docu-
ments i-eference to yourself as serving on the various committees.
Kindly look at those documents and tell us if you will be good
enough to verify their authenticity, Doctor.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 452a, b, 453a, b, and 454," see
appendix, pp. 7878-7884.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. Have you finished with the question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, Doctor.
Observe your listing there as chairman of nationality panels and
resolutions committees and the like at these various sessions here,
Doctor. We would like to have you be good enough to verify the
authenticity of them.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. I am advised by my counsel that this is obviously an
inquiry directed to entrap me, and I therefore fall back on my rights
in the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you gave a
truthful answer to that question while you w^ere under oath you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a crimi-
nal proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. Well, counsel points out, and I rely on his judgment,
and therefore answer to the committee that the question, as to whether
I honestly believe, impugns the honesty of my first answer. It is an
insulting question. And if it is meant to raise more than legal points,,
namely, points of morality, that I therefore must respond as the pre-
vious witness responded, that the question of fear or shame is some-
thing that goes beyond this committee.
Mr. Sciierer. Have you finished ?
Mr. Goldner. May I answer in my own way ? I haven't talked too
much.
I think in American history we have been ashamed of many things r
Persecution of the folloAver of Thomas Jefferson who was put into
prison for the exercise of democratic rights; Elijah Lovejoy and other
abolitionists who were forcibly prevented from expressing their
opinions concerning slavery. And I think in recent days we have
been increasingly
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6687
Mr. Arens. Do you think any of that is quite as shameful as the
operation of the Communist conspiracy in this country ?
Mr. GoLDNER. I think recently we have become increasingly ashamed
of such inquisitions, that the tide is going that way, that this hearing
adds to the shame. And I therefore refuse to contribute to it. I fall
back within my rights under the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. ScHERER. It adds to the shame, Doctor, that men with educa-
tions such as yours would remain in the Communist Party after the
Russians did what they did in Hungary.
Mr. GoLDNER. Is that a question ?
Mr. ScHERER. That is what is almost unbelievable to me.
Mr. DoTLE. Any further questions ?
Mr. Arens. No further questions of this witness.
Mr. Sciierer. That is the kind of sliame I w^ould worry about if I
were you instead of saying this committee should be ashamed.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to ask the doctor a couple of questions.
Apropos of the statement you started to make that I had made cer-
tain statements, here is the statement I made on the subject matter
from my statement which I read this morning :
I would like to emphasize that these hearings are not intended to deal with
the merit or lack of merit of any particular Federal law. We are not here
to participate in legislative controversy.
Our sole purpose is to examine Communist activities directed against these
Federal laws.
Bluntly speaking, it is subversion we are called upon to deal with today.
I am reading again, verbatim, from my statenient.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. Doctor, may I ask you a question, please ? I won't inter-
rupt you. Go ahead and confer with your counsel.
Mr. Schoichet. Go ahead.
Mr. Doyle. I take it from the speech you made to tliat Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born as related in this exhibit — and from
your observations, that you are perfectly familiar with the Internal
Security Act. Is that a fair assumption on my part ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I take it that you would not have said what you did say
unless you were perfectly familiar with it. Is that a fair assumption?
Mr. GoLDNER. Have you finished your question ?
Mr. Doyle. I have finished my question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. My counsel advises that I am not required in this
hearing to comment on legislation. And I am not a lawyer. And
that the chairman of the committee can assume whatever he is pleased
to assume.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I am going to assume certain things, then, with
your express permission just given.
In the Internal Security Act, in view of your public attack on it,
the very first declaration by the United States Congress in this act,
reads :
There exists a world Communist movement which, in its origins, its develop-
ment, and its present practice, is a worldwide revolutionary movement whose
purpose it is, by treachery, deceit, infiltration into other groups (governmental
and otherwise), espionage, sabotage, terrorism, and any other means deemed
6688 COMMTTNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
necessary, to establish a Communist totalitarian dictatorship In the countries
throughout the world through the medium of a worldwide Communist organ-
ization.
That is one of the sections of this particular act in which we are
interested to ascertain the ways and means by which the Communist
organization — and I am not assuming anything in that point as far
as you are concerned, out of courtesy to you. But, for the purpose of
this question because you are a doctor of philosophy, by your own
testimony, do you object to that declaration by the United States Con-
gress in the Internal Security Act?
Is that one of the sections of the anti-Communist portion of the
bill to which you object ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. I am asked to inquire whether you have finished
your question. ...
Mr. Doyle. Manifestly. I remained silent for 2 or 3 seconds after
that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. I am advised that the question asked is a patent at-
tempt to trap me and to put myself in jeopardy, and therefore I shall
fall back within my rights.
Mr. Doyle. No, Doctor. You may not be willing to believe it but
I am not trying to trap anybody. I am just trying to find out your
position as a highly educated American citizen about whom it has
been testified under oath were a member of the Communist Party.
That was the purpose of my question because part of our assignment
under Public Law 601 is to investigate ways and means to amend or
enact legislation dealing with subject of subversive activities.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. And I think it cannot be controverted that the Com-
munist Party is inherently subversive. You have been testified about
as having been a member of that Communist conspiracy. Does that
make the basis of my question clear ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldner. I am advised by counsel that the purpose of the ques-
tion is manifestly to place me in jeopardy, that if the chairman or
anybody else were interested in my ideas, which have been frequently
expressed in public on this and related subjects, I should be very
happy to engage and participate in such discussion.
But in the hearing in which the chairman is the examiner and I am
the witness, I am manifestly in jeopardy. And I, therefore, fall back
on my rights under the Constitution, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. You are manifestly not in jeopardy unless your answer
to the question would incriminate you in a criminal proceeding.
If that is the case, of course you have a perfect right to plead your
constitutional privilege, if it is in good faith.
Now may I ask you one more question.
In July 19M, your Congress, the United States Congress — and I
voted for it and worked for it — passed an amendment to the Internal
Security Act, Public Law 557. And it became public law when ap-
proved by the President July 29, 1954.
This requires a listing of all printing presses, all machines, all
mechanical devices which are capable of being used to produce Com-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6689
munist material and subversive printed material, and requires the
registration and listing of all such printing equipment and so forth.
Do you object to that anti-Communist provision in the internal se-
curity law ? Do I understand that is one of the sections of the internal
secui-ity law that you object to? Did you object to that in public?
If you did why don't you object to it here ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. GoLDNER. Counsel urges me to ask whether you have finished
stating your question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I have.
(The witness confei-s Avith his counsel.)
Mr. GoLDNER. I am advised that the circumstances of this hear-
ing do not require me to testify concerning legislation, and that I am
not a lawyer.
I might also say tliat obviously tlie section quoted by the chairman
raises, I should imagine, even in his own mind, constitutional ques-
tions, and that, if there is any validity to the question, therefore, it
would place me in jeopardy to answer either afTirmatively or nega-
tively.
And I, therefore, stand within my rights.
Mr. DoYLE. One last question.
Public Law 601, under which we operate, directs us to go into any
question relating to subversive activities which would enable Congress
to enact necessary remedial legislation to existing statutes or possibly
new legislation.
Now I think I have a right to assume that you, being a doctor of
philosophy and having appeared in public, as you stated yourself,
and spoken upon the subject of anti- Communist legislation, the Smith
Act and the Immigration and Nationality Act and such, that you have
an opinion of ways and means in which Congress should change its
anti-Communist legislation as it now exists.
I am giving you a fair and square opportunity to give Congress,
as a matter of written record, your recommendations with reference
to the security provisions of any of these bills which are, in one
way or another, under discussion.
How should they be changed, and why? Will you help us in the
field of remedial legislation?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DovLE. And I assure you it is not in an effort to trap you.
But you are a doctor of philosoj)hy, and you luive appeared in public
as an expert on your own basis in this held, leading people who lis-
tened to you to believe that you knew what you were talking about
and that you are an expert.
1 don't mean that statement discourteously, but that is what you did,
as I take it from vour own testimony.
Why don't you give your Congress the benefit of your professional
opinion, your expert opinion, so we can take it back to Washington
with us — 1 am asking you in good faith and 1 am not trying to trap
you — on the security provisions of any or all of these four bills?
Now hel]) us right in the presence of these two or three hundred.
American citizens.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
6690 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. GoLDXKR. I iun aclvisod by counsel to remark that I have not
been invited here to exj^ress my opinion on this leo-islation. I have
been sul)j)enae(l to come here. That T am not bein<r asked to discuss
this lejrislation on its merits; that T am beino; asked simply to identify
a position, the sole purpose of which identification would be to submit
me to jeopardy, and, therefore, to fall back on my rights under the
Constitution.
And, further, to reciprocate the solicitousness of the chairman by
offering to send in my comments on particularly the Walter-McCarran
Act, and perhaps — if the chairman is really interested — on some of
the other legislation which is up.
Mr. Doyle. We are interested in the anti-Communist, the national
security provisions of these bills; not the merits or lack of merits of
any of the other sections of the bills.
And we will be glad to receive your discussion in writing as to the
subversive or anti-Communist vsections on any or all of them.
I have no other questions, counsel.
Ml-. Arexs. The next witness, if you ]:)lease, Mr. Chairman, will be
Mr. Howard Goddard.
Mr. Goddard, will vou please come forward.
Mr. JoHX W. PoKTER. I doubt that Mr. Goddard is here.
JMr. Arens told me this morning
Pardon me.
May I address you, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle, Yes, Mr. Porter.
Mr. Porter. Mr. Arens has called Mr. Howard Goddard whom I
represent as counsel. Mr. Arens told me this morning, however, that
Mr. Goddard would not be called until tomorrow. At least I so un-
derstood. On that basis, I advised Mr. Goddard that he might leave
to return tomorrow,
Mr. Arens. You are right about that.
I was advised by Mr. Wheeler a moment ago that he thought he was
ready to appear. That is the reason I called him.
Mr, Doyle. Then may the committee stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Wliereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent : Representatives Doyle and Scherer. )
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle, The committee will please reconvene.
Let the record show that Committee Member Scherer, of Ohio, and
Subcommittee Chairman Doyle are present, therefore, a quorum of the
subcommittee is present,
I desire to announce that the commitee hearing will commence
tomorrow morning at 9: 15, and all persons who have been subpenaed
for.today and are not called today will please report by 9 : 15 tomorrow
morning instead of 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. Are you ready,
Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. Janet Stevenson, please come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6691
Mrs. Stevenson. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JANET STEVENSON
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Stev-enson. My name is Janet Stevenson. I reside at 2101
Stanley Hills Drive in Los Angeles. I am a wife
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly keep your voice up a little bit and
get a little closer to the microphone. It would be helpful.
Mrs. Stevenson. Is that close enough ?
Mr. Arens. I haven't been able to hear you yet.
Mrs. Stevenson. Is it oH' i
Mr. Arens. It may be ofi' there. Just keep your voice up. We'll
get along all right.
Mrs. Stevenson. All right.
Mr. Arens. Now your name, residence, and occupation, please.
Mrs. Stevenson. ]My name is Janet Stevenson. My residence is
here in Los Angeles at 2101 Stanley Hills Drive. And I am a wife
and a mother of children.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any occupation other than housewife and
mother ?
Mrs. Stevenson. That is many occupations, Mr. Arens. If you
ask me specifically
Mr. Arens. Do you have any occupation in connection with any of
the organizations here in Los Angeles such as the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Ste\^nson. Are you all clear now on the mechanics ?
Mr. Sciierer. I think so.
Mrs. Stevenson. Now I prefer to have you ask me again.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Stem'^nson. Well, that doesn't seem to me to be a proper
question for me to answer. I would like the chairman to rule on this
doubt that I have.
It seems to me to be a question which might invade my right of as-
sociation, which, I think, is guaranteed to me; and also which might, in
this setting, link me with some association which would be injurious
to me.
Is that right, Mr. Doyle ? Would you rule for that ?
Mr. Doyle. I notice, Madam Witness, that you are here without
legal counsel. And I thought probably that our distinguished counsel
would ask you if you wanted to proceed without the benelit of legal
counsel.
Mr. Arens. That is the next question. We are only into the ])oint
of her identification and employment.
Mrs. S'lT-^vENsoN. Meanwhile, would you help me on this point?
Mr. Arens. I will be glad to advise you. The situation is th
Under the Constitution of the United States you may not be com-
pelled against your will to give information which could be Used
against you in a criminal proceeding.
We have a right to ask you (|uostions.
6692 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
But you are not obliged to answer a question if you honestly believe
that a truthful answer to that question would give information which
could be used against you in a criminal proceeding.
If you have an honest apprehension or honest fear with respect to
any question I ask you, and honestly feel that a truthful answer to the
question would give information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding, you may, if you so decide, invoke the provisions
of the fifth amendment, and that invocation will be respected by this
committee.
Do I make myself clear ?
Mrs. Stevenson. I think I understand you. And, if I do, then I
would say that I honestly apprehend that, in this setting, after as
much of it as I have listened to, I would feel that answering that ques-
tion might put me in some kind of jeopardy.
Mr. Arens. I don't mean some kind of jeopardy.
Do you feel that if you truthfully answered the question as to
whether or not you were connected with the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born you would be giving information
that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. Stevenson. Mr. Chairman, is it all right for Mr. Arens to in-
terrupt me while I am trying my best to answer him ?
Mr. Doyle. I think Mr. Arens is trying to cooperate with you in a
difficult situation. I am sure he doesn't intend to interrupt you.
Mr. Scherer. I think this witness should invoke the fifth amend-
ment if she has any doubt. And go on to the next question.
Mr. Doyle. We would rather have you appear here with a lawyer
who would advise you as to your rights because we do not want to be
placed in the position of being your legal counsel.
Mrs. Stevenson. Well, Mr. Doyle, you said this morning, I think,
that all the members of the committee were lawyers.
And so you should be able to — and I understand that you really
have that responsibility, too.
Mr. Doyle. No. I assure you that we do not assume the respon-
sibility of being legal counsel for the witnesses.
IMi'S. Stevenson. No. I meant in safeguarding my rights under the
Constitution.
Mr. Doyle. I see by your question and statement that you are quite
well informed, and maybe you don't need legal counsel as much as
some other people because manifestly you are very well informed
from the ])osition you have taken and the statement you just made.
I w^ould say to you, because you have directed the question to me,
that if you feel that you ought to have legal counsel, then the commit-
tee would rather postpone your hearing until tomorrow morning so
that you can get your legal counsel.
Mrs. Stevenson. No; I didn't ask you about legal counsel, Mr.
Doyle. I askedyou to help me on the question.
Mr. Doyle. Because we do not want to proceed if you have any
question about what your rights are.
Mrs. Stevenson. Well, Mr. Doyle, I didn't come here accidentally
without counsel.
And what I meant when I addressed my request to you was not to
ask you to act as my counsel, but, rather, to know whether it wasn't
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6693
also the responsibility of the committee to guarantee any citizen called
here their ordinary constitutional rights. You wouldn't want to vio-
late them ? So you should want to help them.
Mr. Doyle. No. I see you are prepared to make a nice statement on
that subject, and that is all right.
You are maintaining your position very properly. But, on the
other hand, we cannot enter the area of being legal adviser of any
witness, and we are refusing to be so.
I wish to say again that if you want legal counsel by your side,
then we will postpone your testimony until tomorrow so that you
can get legal counsel.
Mrs. Stevenson. No.
Mr. Doyle. On the other hand, I think, as Mr. Arens has stated in
trying to lielp you, that if you have any anticipation that your answer-
ing a question truthfully according to the facts as you know them
would incriminate you or submit you to prosecution in a criminal
proceeding^ why, then you should in good faith, plead your constitu-
tional privilege.
Mrs. Stevenson. I see.
]Sf r. Doyle. Is that clear ?
Mrs. Stevenson. Yes, I think so.
Mr. Arens. Now you said that your appearance here — a moment
ago — without counsel was not accidental or something to that eti'ect.
Have you consulted with counsel since you were subpenaed by this
committee ?
Mrs. STE^^:NsoN. Mr. Arens, I am sure that isn't a proper question.
Mr. Arens. It is a proper question. I respectively suggest Mr.
Chairman, the witness be ordered and directed to answer that question,
Mr. DoYi.E. Yes.
Mrs. Stevenson. You avouIcI have to explain to me what you mean
by consulting counsel. I suppose any discussion is, in a way, consul-
tation. I have discussed appearing before this committee with many
people, some of whom are members of the bar. But I don't think I
Avould call — I just don't know. You see this is the kind of technicality
I didn't expect to have to make decisions on.
Mr, Arens. This is not technical at all. It is just pointed and it is
very clear. Mr. Roy Huggins testified before this committee under
oath on September 29, 1952, and he stated, among other thing's, that
he knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Huggins lying or was he tell-
ing the truth ?
Mrs. Stevenson. Now that sort of a question, I should think, would
certainly put one in jeopardy, and I would think I would have to fall
back on my
Mr. Arens. It would only put you in jeopardy if you feel an honest
answer to that question would give information which might be used
against you in a criminal proceeding.
Mrs. Stevenson. You are answering the question. I thought you
wanted me to.
Mr. Scherer. He has been trying to help you.
Mrs. Stevenson. I find it unheli)ful when he interrupts me. I am
trying to form a thought, and state it clearly and concisely. There is
some pressure here, to be clear. And it is very distracting to me to
be interrupted.
85333— 57— pt. 1 36
(3694 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. SciiEREU. Witness, you are smarter than you pretend to be.
Mr. Arens. I think you are putting on a little act before the com-
mittee ; aren't you ?
Mrs. Stevenson. Now, Mr. Arens, that's not a nice thing to say.
Mr. Arens. Then tell this committee while you are under oath
whether or not Roy Huggins was telling the truth when he said you
were a Communist. And if you fear that a truthful answer to that
question would be giving information that could be used against you
in a criminal i)roceeding you are entitled to invoke the privilege of the
fifth amendment.
Mrs. Stevenson. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask yon
to give me a ruling on this because there are two things about it that
make me feel dubious about answering. One of them is that it
doesn't seem to me to have any pertinency to any legislative purpose
of the committee. I understand that the committee is supposed to
have a legislative purpose. I don't see how my associations can pos-
sibly fall into an area where Congress can legislate and, therefore,
should investigate. And there is another — do you want me to go on ?
Mr. Doyle. You go ahead with your other question. I do not wish
to interrupt you.
Mrs. Stevenson. I would like a ruling on that. And I would also
like a ruling on whether this question doesn't invade those rights of
association which are guaranteed to us, doesn't jeopardize one's se-
curity?
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct her to answer the question. She
is better than most people with a lawyer.
Mr. Doyle. I remember hearing you say, a minute or two ago, that
you talked with many people, including lawyers, about this matter.
Mrs. Stevenson. It is possible.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; it is possible. You stated that ^ou had talked
with many people, including lawyers. Which is all right, and I am
glad you did. I am sorry you haven't one by your side now. But
may I state in frankness to you, because you are here without counsel
and you have directed to me a civil question, we have sworn testimony
that you were a member of the Communist Party, you see. Is that
true, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You know that already, but I am just reminding you
of it. The other thing is that you have been active, according to our
records, on the Los Angeles Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born. And one purpose of this hearing, as I have announced two or
three times, is to find the extent to which Communists in Los Angeles,
in the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born or in any Com-
munist front, have subversively been attacking the anti-Communist
provisions of the Internal Security Act. Therefore, you understand,
I am telling you again, and you knew it already, that you have been
identified as a Connnunist. Therefore, it is entirely proper, under
Public Law 601, that we ask you the other question. And that is my
ruling.
Mrs. Stevenson. All right. Well, it isn't clear to me how this has
a legislative purpose. But also I am still sure it invades the rights of
association and the freedom to associate, to carry on any kind of
protest tliat a citizen wants to. So I think I should refuse to answer
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6695
that and invoke — well, all the safeguards that the Bill of Rights pro-
vides.
Mr. Arens, You are an old hand at proceedings of this kind; are
jou not ?
Mrs. Stevenson. No, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. You have been in a proceeding of this kind before the
board of regents of the l^niversity of Southern California; have you
not?
Mrs. Stevenson. That is the kind of question that puzzles me. Mr.
Chairman, again it seems to me that this is the sort of question which,
whatever way I should answer it, would certainly tend to put me
in some kind of jeopardy in this kind of a setting.
Mr. Sciierer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer that
question.
Mr. Doyle, You luiderstand the question, and I direct you to
answer the question.
Mi-s. Stevenson. He asked me if I had been in a similar proceeding
to this.
Mr. Arens. Yes. You were before the board of regents of the
TTniversity of Southern California ; were you not?
Mrs. Stevenson. Well, I am going to refuse to answer this question
bC' ause it seems to me to be the kind of a question that invades my
rights of association, and they have no pertinency to any proper legis-
lative proceedings of the committee. And I invoke all the safeguards
I have undei the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Sciierer. Does that include the fifth amendment ?
Mrs. Stevenson. It certainly doesn't exclude the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. We are directed by the courts to ask you, when you
are not specific, whether it includes the fifth amendment.
Mrs. Stevenson. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. All right. That is all.
Mr. Arens. Now I have here a community and religious panel of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which
had set up a conference to protect the rights of foreign-born Ameri-
cans, held March 19, 1955, and I see here that the chairman of this
organization, the community and religious panel, is one Janet Steven-
son.
According to this panel, the recipients or participants are asked to
prepare ads to reach all community organizations, to go into various
church bodies, and to get protests against certain provisions of the law.
Please look at that summary of the panel of this conference to
Protect the Rights of Foreign Born and see if you can help this
Committee on Un-American Activities by telling us whether or not
you are accurately described there as the leader of that panel that
recommends the comrades go into the churches and into connnunity
groups as a medium of reaching more people ?
(See exhibit No. 454, appendix, p. 7881.)
( The witness examines document. )
Mrs. Ste\'ens()N. I don't see that wording here.
Mr. Arexs. First of all, let's start from the top of the page. Look
at the top of the page and see if you aren't listed there as chairman
ofthepatiei. Let's start there.
Mrs. Ste\exson. Wait a minute. I'm sorry. Did I interrupt your
basic problem?
6696 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Yes, I know you didn't intend to because I know you
want to respond. Tell us, are you accurately described as chairman
of that panel ?
Mrs. Si^vENSON. Mr. Arens, this looks like a perfectly public con-
ference on the merits of a hiAv which Mr. Doyle says we are not sup-
posed to comment on. That is not the purpose of this hearing.
Mr. Arens. You know he didn't say that.
Mrs. Stevenson. We were not to consider the merits or lack of
merits.
Mr. Arens. He said the inquiry of this committee is not at the
present time with reference to the merits or demerits of various legis-
lative enactments. He said the purpose is to see what the Comunists-
are doing in this field. You tell us now, first of all, if you are accu-
rately described there as chairman of this conference. Let's get
that point settled, and then we will go on to the next point.
Mrs. Stevenson. Now ?
I think I had better say that I refuse to answer a question which
seems to me might invade my rights of free association and free
political action and in some way put me in jeopardy.
Mr. Arens. There is no invasion of any free action. We want you
to tell us all about the action you had there. We are not trying to
impede you or^
Mrs. Stevenson. You don't need me to tell you. It is all here.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what you did.
Mrs. Stevenson. You can read this, Mr. Arens. You don't iieed nie
to tell you.
Mr. Arens. Tell us if that is true or incorrect. Maybe that is a fake.
Mrs. Stevenson. I don't think I should answer that question. That
again gives me the feeling
Mr. Arens. Tell us while you are under oath.
Mrs. Stevenson. That I am going into an area where the pertinency
to any real, honest, legitimate legislative purpose gets very dim in my
mind. And certainly
Mr. Arens. You don't think the Congress has any legitimate i)m-'-*
pose in inquiring into the activities of the Communists ?
Mrs. Stevenson. Not inquiring into the open, civic activities of the
citizens for or against a piece of legislation.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Arens, may I make this statement.
Don't you think it is pertinent for the United States Congress to
find the ways and means by which persons identified as Communists^
such as you have been, are infiltrating church organizations, college
institutions and other organizations? Don't you think that is perti-
nent under Public Law 601 ? To find out the extent to which Com-
munists— and you have been identified as one and haven't denied that
yet. Don't you think that is pertinent under Public Law 601 ?
Mrs. Stevenson. No, it doesn't seem to me to be because Public Law
601, as I understood what you said about it
Mr. Doyle. Because we may have to amend or revise our law to try
to block the activities of Communists in educational institutions -and!
in churches and other places.
Mrs. Stevenson. Mr. Doyle, churches, and, I am sure, educational
institutions, too, are specifically protected under our Constitution from*
legislation which invades them at all. So how could it ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6697
Mr. DoTLE. They are not protected from Communists, manifestly,
in some of their student body leaderships and even on their faculties in
some cases.
Here you are, according to this bulletin, advocating — and being a
Communist according to sworn testimony — advocating these people
to go into church organizations.
Mrs. Stevenson. I don't see any such word.
Mr. Arens. Were you a teacher of drama at the University of
Southern Calif ornia ? That is a drama teacher.
jNIrs. Stevenson. ISIr. Chairman, how do my activities, if I had been
a drama teacher, fall in a legitimate area of congressional investiga-
tion ? You are not investigating drama ?
Mr. ScHERER. We are having a little bit of drama.
Mr. Arens. Tell us truthfully now. Are you a Communist?
Mrs. Stevenson. I refuse to answer that question because I am sure
that invades my rights of association, political and otherwise, and I
invoke all the safeguards I have under the Bill of Rights in refusing
to answer.
Mr. Arens. ^Ir. Chairman, that concludes the staff interrogation of
this witness.
Mr. ScHERER. Does that include the fifth amendment?
Mrs. Stevenson. Yes, INIr. Scherer.
Mr. Doyle. That question I wanted to ask because she is here with-
out counsel. JMay I understand now your last answer meant to include
every constitutional protection you have. Is that correct?
Mrs. Stevenson. Yes, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. DoYLE. And that same answer by you to this question would
apply to all answers you have given where you refused to answer on
your constitutional rights ?
Mrs. Stevenson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. Are you
ready for another witness ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Josephine Yanez, Y-a-n-e-z.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Van Leuven. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOSEPHINE YANEZ VAN LEUVEN, ACCOM-
PANIED BY COUNSEL, JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Van Leuven. My name is Josephine Yanez Van Leuven,
V-a-n
Mr. Scherer. The press can't hear this witness.
Mrs. Van Leuven. V-a-n L-e-u-v-e-n. My address is 3641 Wool-
wine Drive.
6698 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Akens. LosAiifreles?
Mrs. Van Leuven. Right.
Mr. xVrens. Continue, please; your occupation?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Van Leu\'en. Mr. Chairman, under the
Mr. AitENs. We are liaving difficulty hearing you.
Mr. SciiEKER. The microphone isn't close enough.
Mr. Arens. Would you put the microphone closer, please.
Now we are at the point where we started with your name, residence,
and occupation. We have your name and residence, and we are about
to get your occupation, I hope.
Mrs. Van Leuven. Mr. Chairman, under the rights guaranteed
me under the Constitution of the United States, I am claiming the
privilege of the first and fifth amendments in refusing to answer as
to my occupation.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on I.^n-American
Activities ?
Mrs. Van Leuven. That is is apparent. I was compelled to come
here.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Van Leuven. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter.
Mr. Arens. Before we forget about it, Witness, do you, aside from
any relationship of attorney and client, know a Connnunist by the
name of John W. Porter ?
Mr. Porter. I want the record to show my continued objection to
this question, Mr. Chairman, and my charge that, in asking it, Mr.
Arens is violating well-established principles of legal ethics on the
part of members of the bar.
I don't know whether he claims to be such or not, but, if he does, I
submit that this is a totally improper question as evidenced by the
statement previously submitted to the chairman of this committee by
all counsel representing witnesses here today.
Mr. Arens. Any time counsel wants to take an oath we will ask
him the $64 question and we will be very glad to have him then testify.
Counsel knows his sole and exclusive prerogative as counsel is to
advise his witness of her constitutional rights.
Mr. Porter. And I submit that, in asking this question, Mr. Arens
is invading my duty here as counsel for this witness. I object to it,
and I ask tlie chairman to rule that question out of order.
Mr. Arens. Just a moment, please, Mr. Chairman. While the
chairman is considering the motion of counsel I respectfully suggest
that we suspend the proceedings just for a moment and call Mrs. Anita
Schneider to get an item of information out of the way.
Mrs. Schneider, would you please come forward. Then we will
proceed, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Do you want Mrs. Schneider sworn ?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Schneider. I do.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6699
TESTIMONY OF ANITA SCHNEIDER
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Schneider, we expect to interrogate you at length
tonioiTow on a number of matters. 1 want to ask you for 1 or 2 items
of information today. Have you ever been a member of the Commu-
nist Party ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I have.
Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party solely
and exclusively at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party did you know a person as a Communist by the name of John
W. Porter?
Mr. Porter. Just a minute. I want to interpose an objection to
this kind of interrogation, upon the grounds which I have heretofore
stated.
If the question refers to me, who am here as counsel for the witness
now on the stand — Mrs. Yanez — I submit to you that it is an improper
question, as Mr. Arens well knows, that it is an attempt to interfere
with Mrs. Yanez' right to free choice of counsel.
Mr. Arens. There is no attempt to interfere here. He is represent-
ing his client.
Mr. Porter. I insist upon an objection to this question, and I ask
the objection be sustained.
Mr. Arens. While you were in the Communist Party at the behest
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation serving your Government,
did you know a Conununist by the name of John W. Porter.
Mr. Porter. I insist on my objection.
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you see him now ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. ^Vrens. Would you point him out to the committee.
Mrs. Schneider. This man right here.
Mr. Arens. That is all for the moment.
Mr. Doyle. Your objection is in the record, Mr. Porter.
Mr. Porter. There is no ruling by the Chair.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPHINE YANEZ VAN LEUVEN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Are you identified or have you ever been employed by
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ^
Mrs. Van Leuven. Mr. Arens, where I have been employed is my
affair. I have no intention of telling you where I have been employed
or where I have not been enq)loyed. I do so under the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a number of
checks of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. Those checks, many of which at least are signed by yourself,
are payable to yourself. Please look at those checks of the Los Angeles
C^onunittee for Protection of Foreign Born and tell us whether or
not, to your certain knowledge, they are true and correct representa-
tions of your signature.
Mrs. Van Leuven. My answer still stands on the first and fifth
amendments.
6700 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you were employed by the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, and that you also, in the course of your
employment, signed certain checks for the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign IJorn.
Mrs, Van Leuvex. How many questions are you asking me, Mr.
Arens ?
^Ir. Arens. If I told you. would you answer them ?
Mrs. Van Leuven. That is question No. 5.
Mrs. Arens. Then let's just start over again.
Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you now still another document.
It is the bank signature card for the Los Angeles Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born showing your signature, that of Josephine Yanez
as secretary.
l^lease look at the signature card and tell this committee whether
or not it presents a true and correct representation of your signature.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 455," see appendix, pp. 7885-
7889.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel).
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us.
Mrs. Van Leuven. Would you wait just a minute ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
■ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. DoyXiE. I think you have had plenty of time to answer the
question.
Mrs. Van Leuven. Very well, Mr. Chairman. Would you repeat
■ the question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Do those checks there truly and accurately repre-
sent your signature and you as a payee of certain of the checks?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Van Leuven. I think I have made an answer very clear on that
question.
Mr. Doyle. What is your answer, please ?
Mrs. Van Leuven. I stated it already, sir: I refuse to answer on
the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to still another
document. It appears, by the Communist Daily People's World, that
there must have been some connection between the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and the National Conference
To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law that was held in Chicago back
in 1953.
Please look at this article which says that Josephine Yanez is
representing the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born at that national conference in Chicago, and see if that truly and
accurately represents the facts, and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether or not that is true and correct.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 456," see appendix, p. 7890.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Van Leu^'en. I don't believe it is necessary to give you any
information at all of any activities I may have had, or may not have
had, and therefore I want to rely on the first and fifth amendments of
the Constitution.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6701
Mr. Arens. The fact that your counsel has just been identified now
as a Communist hasn't hurt your consultation with him at all, has it?
Mrs. Van LEu^^^^ Mr. Chairman, would you — I can't hear what he
is saying. Mr. Arens, would you wait just a moment, please?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead and confer with your counsel.
Mrs. Van Leuven. I can't hear him and talk to my counsel at the
same time.
Mr. Arens. We don't want to interfere with your opportunity to
confer with your counsel.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Van Leuven. I want to state here that it is very apparent that
any questions that Mr. Arens is directing regarding my counsel is in-
vading my free right of choice of counsel.
And I am very disturbed that Mr. Arens is allowed to behave in this
manner.
I think it is extremely shameful.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to answer the question now ?
Mrs. Van Leuven. Mr. Chairman, did you want to say something ?
Mr. Doyle. No.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to invite your attention to still another
document, the Communist Daily People's World of June 1955, a letter
to the editor, all signed by Jose Fina Yanez, Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Look at this document and see if that is a true and correct repre-
sentation of a letter by you to the editor.
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Van Leuven. I don't think I have to answer that, sir. The
question you asked me
Mr. Arens. You have to answer it unless you honestly apprehend
that a truthful answer to that question would give information
Mrs. Van Leuven. A date is not on here.
Mr. Arens. Would you answer it if I give you the correct date?
Mrs. Van Leuven. He said June 1955.
Mr. Arens. Apparently your problem is the date. Let's get the
date straight.
According to the Communist Daily People's World of Tuesday,
July 12, 1955, you sent this letter to the editors.
Look at that letter and that date and tell us whether or not that is
a letter you sent to the editor of the Communist Daily People's World.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 457," see appendix, p. 7890.)
Mrs. Van Leuven. If I did, sir, or if I did not, is my own affair,
and I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
ISlr. Arens. We have some more conferences we want to ask you
about. See if you couldn't be helpful to your Government in under-
taking to develop facts to expose subversive activities. It is a report
by Josephine Yanez to the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Bom, to the fifth annual conference, March 19, 1955, in which
many things are set forth attacking various legislative enactments of
the Congress.
6702 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly look at this report and see if you can give us a verification
of its authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 458," see appendix, pp. 7890-
7892.)
Mrs. Van Leuvex. I still stand on the first and fifth amendments in
refusinp: to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now we have another document to call to your atten-
tion. It is from the Communist Daily People's World of Wednesday,
March 3, 1954, an article about the "Los Angeles Foreign Born Parley
Outlines Walter Act, Mexican Aid Plans."
It tells about a conference which reelects the officers and staff of the
Los Angeles Committee with a Miss Yanez, director of work in
the ISIexican community.
Please look at that and tell us whether or not you were elected by
the conference, to be director of the work in the Mexican connnunity
in Los Angeles.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 459," see appendix, pp. 7892,
7893.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. xVrens. And while we are on that subject matter
Mr. Porter. One question at a time.
Mr. Doyle. The witness started to answer.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon. Go right ahead.
Mrs. Van Leuven. The same grounds as the previous one.
Mr. Arens. I have another document. It is a conference progi-am
for the fourth annual conference of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born in which a Josephine Yanez is identified
as the activities director in the Mexican community.
Kindly look at that and see if that is true and correct.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 460," see appendix, p. 7894.)
Mrs. Van Leuven. I can't possibly see why you insist on wasting
all of this time, Mr. Arens.
I still stand on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want to apologize for any waste of time. It certainly
isn't intentional.
I have here a copy of a letter of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born in which a Josephine Yanez is identified
by her signature as secretary of that organization.
Accorffnig to this, they are going to have a big fiesta. Tickets
for a dollar.
(See exhibit No. 433, appendix, p. 7858.)
Please look at that and see if you can help this committee by
telling us whether or not that is your signature.
And here are a few more which we want to incorporate by reference
in this record, wiiich you might look at at the same time.
Mrs. Van Leuven. I still refuse to answer on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the signa-
ture of this witness, if and when she affixes it to a voucher for her
per diem and witness fee, be incorporated in the body of this record
so that there may be a comparison of signatures.
Mr. DoYLB. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 461," see appendix, p. 7895.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6703
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
And 1 respectfully suggest, now that John W. Porter has been
identified by a live witness under oath as a member of the Communist
Paity, Mr. Porter not be sul)i)enaed but be given an opportunity, if
he so desires, to deny it and submit himself to an oath.
Mr. Porter. Is the witness excused, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Henry or Harry Carlisle. Kindly come forward.
Mr. Pkock. Just a moment. Tlie witness isn't going to approach
until the cameramen sit down. He is not going to have a picture taken.
I think the Chair will recognize that.
Mr. Arens. You wouldn't want to violate the freedom of the press.
Mr. Brock. I wouldn't violate anything you haven't already done,
Mr. Arens.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. AVe will make this ruling : The Chair
rules that the freedom of the press permits the press at public hearings
of this committee to take the picture of any witness before he has taken
his oath. That is my ruling.
TESTIMONY OF HARRY CARLISLE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROBERT L. BROCK
Mr. Brock, May I file this with you, Mr. Chairman ?
I have sent a copy of a letter and a copy for Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Doyle. Of course you know this is not a court, and we are not
going to make any ruling on legal questions.
Mr. Brock. I refrain from the obvious comment, that it is a kan-
garoo court. We have a serious motion to quash the subpena. There
is a pending action involving Mr. Carlisle and which this kind of
Mr. Arens. Mr. Carlisle, would you kindly remain standing while
the chairman administers an oath?
Counsel is to be advised that his sole and exclusive prerogatives
are to advise his client with respect to his constitutional rights.
Mr. Brock. I will take my instructions from the chairman.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Carlisle remain standing while the chairman ad-
ministers an oath to you.
Mr. Brock. I have a serious problem raised here, and I want a
ruling on it.
Mr. DoYi.E. Just a minute.
Mr. Brock. Surely; I didn't mean to interrupt. I don't mean to
delay the committee. This presents a very serious problem,
Mr. DoYLE. I wish to say this, Counsel :
You may have a meritorious motion in a jiroper legal forum, but
this is not a court. I have no authority to (|uash a subpena. And you
have your i-ecoiu-se in a court of law. Manifestly, this is not a court
of law, and T would suggest that you take your motion to the pro})or
<?onrt of jurisdiction because we have no autliority to act as a court.
Mr. Brock. I donY want to take nmcli time, and 1 would like to be
heard just for a second, if you please.
6704 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mr. Brock. This is a serious problem. Mr. Carlisle's status is now
involved in a case before the court. The only place the subpena can
be attacked is ricrht here. Your committee issued it. I cannot go be-
fore the court for many reasons, including time. If you truly want
to get something out of Mr. Carlisle the least you can do is to wait
until the judicial proceeding is terminated. This wouldn't hurt this
committee in the least bit. You can come back here next year or some-
time when the courts have ruled on this.
Mr. ScHERER. I move we proceed, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. We wish to state this. Counsel : Mr. Scherer and I are
both lawyers of a good many years of practice. That is, I have been
in California and Mr. Scherer in the Ohio courts. I am quite sure
that you have your recourse in a court of law. You have a speedy
remedy if you wish to take it. This is not a court, and I will not as-
sume to act as a court.
Mr. Brock. A ruling, Mr. Doyle, please.
Mr. Doyle. The ruling is that we have no jurisdiction in the matter
and I can't do it.
Mr. Brock. Do I take it the motion is denied, sir 'i
Mr. Doyle. No. I will not in any way because we are not a court.
Mr. Brock. Could we have the motion made a part of the record?
May I have it made a matter of record ?
Mr. Doyle. We will be glad to make your motion a part of our
records.
Mr. Brock, Thank you.
Mr. Doyle. I am sorry.
Mr. Brock. Thank you.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand ?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Carlisle. I do.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Carlisle. Harry Carlisle, 1606 North Sierra Bonita, Los
Angeles ; writer.
Mr. Arens. And for what agency or organization do you write ?
Mr. Brock. Mr. Carlisle is here with counsel. Do you want me to
identify myself ?
Mr. Arens. We will take care of that after the witness is duly
identified. For what organization or entity do you write ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Carlisle. I am instructed by counsel, advised by counsel, that
this committee has no right to ask such questions of me, that this is,
in effect, the destruction of the Bill of Rights. And I, therefore, refuse
to answer such questions.
Mr. Arens. If your counsel advises you that way he advised you
erroneously.
Mr. Brock. I object to that.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that this witness be ordered to
answer and that counsel be admonished that his sole and exclusive pre-
rogative is to advise the witness.
Mr. Brock. This is the exact conduct this man has been doing right
along. He is not permitted to question my advice to a client. He is
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6705
purporting to act as this man's counsel. You know that, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle, You know the rules of the committee.
Mr. Brock. I have some protection here against this type of conduct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel knows if he acted that way in a court of law
he could be fined and put in jail.
Mr. Doyle. Let's go ahead.
Mr. Brock. May I have a ruling he is not to instruct my client on
the law ? He hired me for it. He will hire you next time.
Mr. Arens. I wouldn't represent him.
Mr. Brock. You wouldn't because you are not a lawyer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer that. We will get to you in a moment, Counsel.
Mr. Doyle. May I have the question, please.
Mr. Arens. The question is where were you employed ?
Mr. D0Y1.K. I instruct the witness to answer that question.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Carlisle. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
my protection under the first and fifth amendments,
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Carlisle. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Brock. Robert L. Brock, B-r-o-c-k, of the firm of Brock, Easton,
Fleishman & Eykoff, Hollywood, Calif. And I represent anyone
who comes to me.
Mr. Arens. Wliere were you born, Mr. Carlisle ?
( The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Carlisle. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments, and because all such questions are in-
volved in the proceedings, as this committee probably well knows, be-
fore the Federal courts of the United States.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question.
Mr, DoYT,E. I direct the witness to answer,
Mr. Carlisle. I stand on the answer that I gave, that I will invoke
the protection of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Aside from any relationship of attorney and client,
do you know or have you ever laiown as a Communist a person by
the name of Robert L. Brock ?
Mr. Brock. No ; he hasn't, and you're a liar, and you know it. If
you want to make that charge out in public where you can't hide
behind immunity, make it.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that, in view of the contemptu-
ous conduct of counsel, that counsel be given an opportunity to submit
himself to an oath.
^ Mr. Brock. I have been here under an oath. And, by a subpena, I
will come again.
Mr. Arens. And you took the fifth amendment.
Mr. Brock. Read the record.
Mr. Arens. You invoked the fifth amendment when you were asked
whether or not you were a Communist.
Mr. Brock. I did not. You lie.
Mr. Doyi.e. Just a minute.
Mr. Arens. Did you take the fifth amendment when j^ou were inter-
rogated by the committee ?
6706 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Brock. On what question ?
Mr. Arens. As to whether or not you were a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Brock. I did not.
Mr. Arens. Did you take the fifth amendment wlien asked whether
or not you had ever been a Communist ?
Mr. Brock. I am not going to get in a controversy.
Mr. Arens. Vou started this, as to wliether or not you have ever
been a member of the Communist Party, did you take the fifth amend-
ment ?
Mr. Brock. I refuse to discuss this Communist problem with you.
Your committee well knows if I have done anything wrong you can
prosecute. Try it.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Brock. I am not under oath and I am not discussing tlic topic
with you. Counsel's conduct is the most contemptible I have seen
in a court, much less a hearing. You know it, Mr. Doyle. You
know this is a theatrical thing designed to catch the press.
Mr. Doyle. I would suggest this, as long as you have designated
committee counsel as a liar
Mr. Brock. It is clear he is.
Mr. Arens. Then stand up like a man and submit to an oath and
tell the committee whether or not you have ever been a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. I would submit to you, sir, that it might be well for
you to voluntarily appear before the committee and not make the com-
mittee subpena you. And I think, in view of your public charge
Mr. Brock. The committee can do as it chooses.
Mr. Doyle. That is a suggestion.
Mr. Brock. I have been before this committee. And it is no pleas-
ure.
Mr. Doyle. I know that.
Mr. Brock. And I don't particularly care to appear before it. If
you subpena me I am here and I will appear.
Mr. Doyle. Would you appear witliout a subpena ?
Mr. Brock. No; I will not.
Mr. Doyle. Maybe, to clear up the situation tlien, we should subpena
you.
Mr. Brock. You can do what you choose.
Mr. Doyle. And give you the chance to make the record what-
ever it should be.
Mr. Brock. You can do what you choose.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Carlisle, we would like to display to you
pliotostatic copies of some checks of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, on which the payee is Harry Carlisle.
Please tell this committee whether or not those are true and correct,
authentic checks, and whether or not that is part of the labors for
which you were paid as a writer. I believe you said you were a
writer.
(Document marked "Exhibit Nos. 462 and 463," appendix, pp.
7896, 7897.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Carlisle. How many questions is tliat, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. I think you follow me.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6707
Mr. Carlisle, I am not sure that I do. I wouldn't ask you if I
had followed you. In fact, I think you phrase your questions in
such a way
JNIr. Ari:ns. Tell us whether or not those checks are true and correct
representations of checks made paj-able to you by the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Carlisle. Mr. Chairman, 1 asked a simple question. How many
questions did he ask ?
Mr. Arens. Just take them one by one.
Mr. Carlisle. AVill you please wait until I finish my answer?
He asks compound questions and phrases them in such histrionics
as to make all sorts of implications. I would like, if the chairman
please, since he has attacked my counsel, and he is attacking me in the
same way
Mr. Arens. And we will coiitiiiue to attack and expose all Com-
munists.
Mr. Carlisle. No courtesy whatsoever. And I am trying to be
courteous to this committee, but at the same time protect my essential
rights.
Mr. Doyle. Is there one question pending ?
Mr. Arens. Yes sir, I will give it again.
Mr. Arens. Do those checks there truly and correctly represent
original checks of which you were the payee of the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. (IvRLisLE. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of the
first amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you a letter on the Los
Angeles Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Bom letterhead, signed
Harry Carlisle, chairman, conference organizing committee.
Please look at this letterhead with your signature and see if you
can help this Committee on Un-American Activities by attesting to
the authenticity of your signature on this letter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 464," see appendix, p. 7898.)
Mr. Carlisle. I refuse to answer on the same grounds, Mr. Chair-
man, invoking the same privileges.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as,
and when this witness affixes liis signature to a voucher for per diem
and expenses as a witness, that that part of the voucher bearing his
signature be incorporated in the body of the record so that there may
be a c()in]):irison with tlie signatures appearing on the exhibits thus
far exliibited to him.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 465," see appendix, p. 7899.)
Mr. Brock. No objection at all. That will be all right.
Mr. Doyle. It will be so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you an original document
entitled "Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born" re a festive
occasion in which the recipient is receiving an outline of a report to the
National Conference of Heads of Committees, signed Harry Carlisle,
festival coordinator.
Please look at that document and see if you can attest to its
autlienticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 466," see appendix, p. 7900.)
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
6708 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Carlisle. I refuse to answer on the same grounds, Mr. Chair-
man, invoking the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we have anotlier document that is the reproduction
of the original letter of the Sixtli Annual Conference to Repeal the
Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims, May 17, 1056, signed
by Harry Carlisle, chairman of the festival committee.
Please look at that document and see if you cannot attest to its
authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 467," see appendix, p. 7901.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Carlisle. I refuse to answer on the same grounds, Mr. Chair-
man, invoking the constitutional privileges.
Mr. Arens. Who are the Terminal Island Four? Do you know?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Carlisle. I would like to know what relevance this has to the
hearing.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. You have heard the question. Do you have any knowl-
edge of the
Mr. Carlisle. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Carlisle. Could you explain what relevancy this has to this
hearing ?
Mr. Arens. Determination of relevance is not for you to make, Mr.
Witness.
Mr. Doyle. I do not happen to know the details of it, Mr. Carlisle.
Mr. Carlisle. That is, of course, my puzzlement, too, Mr. Chairman.
I have been involved in proceedings. They are now before a Federal
court. And there are many proceedings in Federal courts that affect
my status. And I think that this is a proper place
Mr. Arens. Wliat kind of status ?
Mr. Brock. Just a moment. I don't think he should be interrupted.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, you know your sole and exclusive prerogative
is to advise your client.
Mr. Brock. Try to exercise a little courtesy.
Mr. Arens. We exercise twice the courtesy we receive.
Mr. Brock. The question, please, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. The question is about the Terminal Island Four.
Mr. Brock. He was trying to complete an answer.
Mr. Arens. The question is simply if he could tell us who the Termi-
nal Island Four are.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Carlisle. I see in this question a certain danger and invasion
of certain rights, certain possible deductions, conclusions — perhaps
already arrived at — by this committee.
I will stand — I will refuse to answer this question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily People's World of Friday, July 6, 1951 :
Oleta O'Connor Yates, Communist leader, and Harry Carlisle, one of the Ter-
minal Island Four, will share speaking honors at a rally to be held here next
Friday, July 13, under si)onsorship of the Civil Rights Congress.
and so forth.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6709
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not it is a true
and correct representation of the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 468," see appendix, p. 7902.)
Mr. Carlisle. I would like to save you the time, Mr. Arens.
I will refuse to identify this document on the same grounds as previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we invite your attenion to still another document,
the Communist Daily People's AVorld of March 2-i, 1948.
With reference to a California Labor School, it says the instructors
and guest lecturers will include, among others, Harry Carlisle, author.
Please look at this document and tell us whether or not that is a
true and correct representation of the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 469," see appendix, p. 7902.)
Mr. Carlisle. I really don't need to look at that, Mr. Chairman.
I am going to answer all such questions, which are involved in
matters which concern me in the courts, with the same answer, invok-
ing the constitutional privileges of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. Very well.
Mr. Arens. What is the Western Writers' Congress? Can you tell
us?
Mr. Carlisle. Is this a question addressed to me ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Carlisle. The way you announced it I thought it was a rhetori-
cal question.
If the question is addressed to me, I will answer by invoking the
privileges of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I lay before you a Communist Daily Worker article
with reference to a writers congress. And it says here that Harry
Carlisle is executive secretary of this Western Writers' Congi-ess.
Please look at that and see if that is a true, correct, and authentic
representation of facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 470," see appendix, p. 7902.)
Mr. Carlisle. The same answer, Mr. Chairman.
I am not going to identify any of these documents for the reasons
stated both by counsel and by myself. To protect myself against any
possible coercive action that this committee might tend to inflict upon
me, I will then invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to lay before you another document. It is
an original Bulletin of the I^eague of American Writers.
According to this document, the League of American Writers
increased in size during the year 1937-38. Due to the efforts of
Harry Carlisle a number of active chapters were established in various
parts of the United States.
Please look at that document and tell us whether oi- not that truly
and accurately represents the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 471," see appendix, pp. 7903,
7904.)
Mr. Carlisle. The same answer, Mr. Chairman.
But I would like to supplement this by saying that at no time hive
I ever been ashamed of anything I have written or spoken or acted as
a writer in any shape or form whatsoever.
Mr. Arens. And have you been ashamed of any membership in
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Brock. Let him finish the answer.
85333 — 57— pt. 1 37
6710 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Counsel, you are advised your sole and exclusive pre-
rogatives are to advise your client.
Mr. Carlisle. The same discourtesy. I didn't interrupt Mr. Arens,
but he consistently is interrupting me. It is a simple enough matter
to let me finish my answer, don't you think?
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead. Tell us all about what you have done
that you are proud of, including anything you have done in the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Carlisle. Yes, because the implication in your questions, Mr.
Arens, is that one should be ashamed, and all these things, that some-
how or other they impute guilt. I say if this is so the courts will
decide this matter and not you.
And, therefore, I invoke, with regard to all these questions, the first
and fifth amendments as a protection of my rights.
Mr. Arens. Do you knoAv a person by the name of Anita Schneider?
Mr. Carlisle. The same answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Anita Schneider has identified you as a member
of the Communist conspiracy. Was she lying or telling the truth?
Mr. Carlisle. Well, the same answer for the same reason.
This is a form of entrapment, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Just a form of trying to learn the truth.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude the
staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, for the moment I "have no questions
of this witness. But I would like to ask him to be continued under
subpena because I may want to ask that he be recalled for a few
questions later.
Mr. Brock. I don't object, sir. But I have already told Mr. Wheeler
that I have planned to leave town Friday evening. If you can get to
him, I would appreciate it. I have to be away Friday and Saturday.
Mr. Scherer. We may get to him today.
Mr. Brock. All right. He will be here.
Mr. Arens. Lillian Doran, kindly come forward.
Mr. John W. Porter. Mr. Arens apparently pays no attention to
his script whatsoever, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. You go ahead and condemn me some more. I get so
I enjoy it from you fellows. It sort of makes me feel good to be
attacked time and time again by members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Porter. Mr. Arens told me this morning that Mrs. Doran
would not be called until Friday afternoon. I was foolish enough
to rely upon his statement.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I would say that he gave me the names
of a number of people whom he represented. T think he represented,
he said, about 8 or 10 of them. And we called off a list back and forth,
and those that were scheduled for tomorrow we said we would not
call today.
I do not have listed here that Mr. Porter represented this witness.
If this is one of the witnesses he represents and she is scheduled
tomorrow, he is eminently correct. I am very glad to felicitate him
on his accuracy.
Mr. Porter. I wnsh I could reciprocate.
Mr. Arens. Do you represent David-Hyun ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6711
Mr. Porter. I do, and the situation is the same with respect to him.
Would you like me to give you the list ?
Mr. Arens. You did. You got me out of bed this morning and
gave it to me.
Mr. Porter. That is such a shame.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. David Hyun is represented also by Mr. Anthony
Randies, who tells me he cannot be here tomorrow.
If the committee desires to call Mr. Hyun now, that is agreeable
with counsel.
Mr. Arens. We are very happy to accommodate you, counsel.
Mr. Doyle. When do you want him ? Now ?
Mr. Arens. If you please, Mr. Chairman. Right now.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Porter, we will call Mr. Hyun now to accommodate
counsel.
Mr. Hyun, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Hyun. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Take the witness chair, please.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID HYUN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ANTHONY V. RANDIES AND JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Hyun. My name is David Hyun. The address is 3540 Dahlia
Avenue. My occupation is architect.
Mr. Arens. And where are you employed as an architect, please, sir ?
Mr. Hyun. I am self-employed.
Mr. Arens. Where?
Mv. Hytjn. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Hylin. I was compelled to attend this hearing by the force of
the subpena.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
JMr. Hyun. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourselves?
Mr, Randles. Anthony V. Randies, Los xingeles.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter, Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Would you help me to pronounce your name, Hyun?
Mr, Hyun. Hyun. It is Hyun.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Hyun, where were you born ?
Mr. Hyun. The pronunciation of my name kind of startled me.
Mr. Arens. I am sorry. I meant to pronounce it accurately.
Where were you born, Mr. Hyun?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. I was born in Korea. Mr. Chairman, may I make a
statement at this point?
Mr. Doyle. If it is very brief and pertinent.
Mr. Hyun. I think that I originally intended to say very, very
little. But the conduct of your counsel
Mr. Doyle. Xo.
6712 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Hyun. Then I won't because I did select my counsel on the
basis of their experience and so on.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. IIyux. And I feel that what has transpired has prejudiced
my position here.
Mr. Doyle. No.
i\Ir. Hyun. I do wish to say that I have a position with regard to
hearings of this nature, especially because of my Korean origin.
I left Korea as an infant, and have been raised in this country since
childhood, and I have come to believe that the struggles of the Korean
people for independence was very, very akin to the struggles of the
American people for their independence, and for which reason I prize
the constitutional democracy of this country. And, therefore, I believe
that, in my opinion, when acts are undertaken to trespass against the
rights of freedom of speech and press and assembly it is very similar
to wliat happened in Korea where they passed laws prohibiting
Mr. Doyle. Now, Mr. Hyun, I am sure you recognize that I have
been glad to let you take a few minutes to make part of your statement
or all of your statement. I did so, because I had the experience of
being in Korea myself during the war. Also I am quite sure that I
had the experience of meeting some other Korean citizens over there
by the name of Hyun, a very extensive family in Korea. But let's get
on now to the purpose of this hearing.
Mr. Hyun. I just have a few more words.
Mr. D( > yle. You have made T^ourself clear on that, I think.
Mr. Arens. On the Korea situation, which side were you on when
we had our boys fighting in Korea ?
Mr. Hyun. May I complete my previous statement ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. Because it only takes a few minutes. The thought I want
to make was that during the struggle for independence the Korean
people were compelled by law not to use their own language and cer-
tain things which they did not like. And then, later, they had laws
prohibiting them from acting against those laws which they did not
like. . And, after that, they had thought police preventing them from
even thinking about acting against those laws.
Mr. Arens. After that they had the North Korean Communists in-
vade South Korea. Which side were you on when that happened?
Mr. Hyun. For that reason, I believe that any laws which deal with
freedom of association and so on are very dangerous to continued
democracy of our country.
Mr. Arens. About Korea, let's get back to Korea just a moment.
When our boys were fighting and dying with their hands tied be-
hind their backs, being mowed down by the Communist traitors over
there, being shot by the North Koreans, which side were you on?
Which side were you on in this Korean battle ?
Mr. Hyun. In view of my previously stated feelings, I think it
would be improper for me and hypocritical of me to accommodate and
answer to such questions because then I would be saying that the com-
mittee has a right to inquire as to my opinions.
Mr. ScHERF.R. Just n minute. I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question. He has opened the door by that long speech on
Korea and his position, and he cannot any longer invoke the fifth
amendment because he has waived his privilege.
COMJMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6713
So I think he must answer the question of counsel in this case. And
if he doesn't answer it, and if he does invoke the fifth amendment, he
IS obviously guilty of contempt.
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. ScHERER. That is as plain as the nose on your face.
Mr. Hyun. I believe that
Mr. ScHERER. We didn't ask him to make the speech.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer. I think when you made that
voluntary statement, as you did, with a good deal of pride in your
Korean birth and the fact that you came to this country and you have
been raised in this country and then volunteered your attitude as a
former Korean child that you submit yourself, I believe, to this as an
appropriate question.
Mr. IIyun. Mr. Chairman, you will recall also that I was not per-
mitted to complete that statement inasmuch as that, I believe that,
because of this upbringing, I feel I cannot testify in regard to opinions
and associations and that sort of thing before this committee.
Mr. Doyle. We are not asking you your opinion. We are asking
you which side of the fight you were on.
Were you on the Communist side from North Korea or did you
defend the United Nations side and South Korea?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. I think that is an important thing for the American
people to know in view of your rather evident desire to let us know
of your Korean birth and your American citizenship.
Mr. Hyun. No. I believe I said that in order to express the basis
for my pride as an American.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Well, we would be proud to know which side of
the fight you were on. Were you with the United Nations against the
North Korean Commies or were you with the North Korean Commies ?
That might explain your relationship to the United States a good
deal.
Mr. Hyun. I believe that I do not want to dignify — accommodate
such a question, but I will express a general opinion that at no time
have I acted against the interests of the United States which is the
country I have adopted, and I have at all times sincerely acted for the
interests of this country.
Mr. Arexs. Let's just test that a moment.
Mr. Hyun. That is my opinion.
Mr. Arens. Were you at any time a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Just tell us that. That will help us a little bit on this point of
whether or not you have been working in the interest of this country.
Have you ever been a member of the Communist conspiracy?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. I will refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Anita Schneider ?
Mr. Hyun. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. She has identified you as as a person who, to her certain
knowledge, was a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was she
lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. Hyun. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now we would like to have you help your govermuent
in view of your professed loyalty and patriotism.
6714 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
We see from a letter on the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born letterhead, that one of tlie individuals who signs this
letter asking everj^one to defend the Bill of Rights and attacking legis-
lation designed to protect the security of this country is one David
H-y-u-n, chairman of the organizing committee. I^ook at that letter
while you are under oath and tell this committee whether or not
that is your signature ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 472," see appendix, p. 7905.)
Mr. Hyun. Mr. Chairman, I believe there were two questions asked.
Mr. Arens. No, there is only one question. Are you he I
Mr. Hyun. Oh. He asked me if I wanted to be a patriotic Ameri-
can.
Mr. Arens. If you are a patriotic American, while you are under
oath deny you are a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Hyun. I understand that is another question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I understand the question. So save your time and ours
by answering it.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. The outstanding question is : Please identify your sig-
nature on that letter.
Mr. Hyun. Mr. Chairman, I thought it was obvious I was consult-
ing with counsel. May I have permission to consult with counsel?
Mr. Arens. Certainly. Consult with the two of. them.
Mr. Doyle. Proceed, Mr. Hyun.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer the question on the same previous
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness affixes his signature to a voucher for his per diem
and transportation expense as a witness, that part of the voucher on
which his signature appears be incorporated in the body of the record
for comparison of signatures.^
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 473" for identification purposes.) ^
Mr, Arens. We display to you now, Mr. Witness, if you please,
still another document of the Sixth Annual Conference To Repeal
the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims : "Dear Brother
and Sister:".
It is a call to a conference telling all about the cold war, all about'
what Abner Green is doing and Russ Nixon is doing, calling upon
the recipient to join in a big conference on this subject matter. And
signed by Conference Chairman David Hyun, H-y-u-n.
Please look at that one and tell us if you can verify the authenticity
of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 474a, b," see appendix, pp. 7906,
7907.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer that question on the same previous
grounds.
Mr. Arens. We have several documents of the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born calling upon the brothers and
sisters who receive the documents to do all kinds of things: write to
the Attorney General, solicit other peo])le to take action on various
legislative enactments, and mail contributions to the Los Angeles
Committee.
1 Signed voucher not returned at date of printing of testimony.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6715
Please look at these documents and see if you can help your Govern-
ment now by verifyinfj the authenticity of those documents.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Xo. 475ii, b," see appendix, pp. 7908,
7909.)
(The witness examines documents.)
Mr. Hyun. Do I answer you directly or Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Areists. Just answer, if you please.
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer that question on the same previous
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to lay before you a summary of a keynote
speech by yourself at the Terminal Island conference organizing
committee.
Look at this document and help the Committee on Un-American
Activities rout subversives by verifying the authenticity of that docu-
ment, if you please, sir.
Mr. Hyun. Same answer.
Mr. Aeens. Mr. Appell of our staff is going to lay before you
another series of documents with reference to various panels, various
conferences, of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of 'Foreign
Born and related organizations on legislative matters in which your
name appears.
Please look at these documents and see if you can verify their
authenticity.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. ■i76a-d," see appendix, pp. 7910-
7913.)
( The witness examines documents. )
Mr. Hyun. I submit the same answer to these documents.
Mr. Arens. Here is a document I want to describe and maybe it
might throw a little light on the chairman's preceding questions.
It is a picture of a man. According to this document, it is David
H-y-u-n. A quotation on this document reads :
I will say unqualifiedly that David Hyun would be executed by the South
Korean Government if he is deported.
And we see here a call to action for people to rally to the support
of this man who is up for deportation. They are urged to write
friends and neighbors and others, all on behalf of this man who, be-
fore us today, masks himself in an aura of patriotism.
Look at that document and tell this committee whether or not you
are the man who would be shot if you were sent to South Korea.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 477a, b," see appendix pp. 7914,
7915.)
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer that question on the previous grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that concludes the staff interroga-
tion of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. May I see that, please, Mr. Reporter.
(Document handed to the chairman.)
Mr. Doyle. That certaiidy appears to be your picture, David Hyun.
There is no question about it in my judgment. It is a picture of you.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the lawyer,
Robert L. Brock, in the company of a preceding witness, made a very
damaging connnent with respect to myself, that I was a liar for sug-
gesting, by a question to his client, that he might be a member of the
Communist Party, I respectfully
Mr. Doyle. Wait a minute.
Is Mr. Brock in the room ?
6716 CORIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Brock. I certainly am. I might point out you served a subpena
on nie with the sio^nature of Mr. Walter, Avho I understand is not here.
1 am not raising the point because I will appear under the subpena.
I think it is typical of the committee's conduct.
Mr. Arens. 1 just want the record clear that he is expected here.
Mr. Brock. I would like to add this : I am sorry. I don't mean to
be rude. I have one other client. I would like to get him on before I
am harassed by Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. No harassment. I will just ask you a question or
two.
Mr. Brock. All right.
Mr. Doyle. I stated a few minutes ago I was in Korea several days
during the war, and I acquired a certain affection for the Koreans over
there m South Korea who were fighting against the butchering from
the Communists in North Korea and China.
And this says, in part :
Who is David Hyun?
A respected long-time resident of Los Angeles, David Hyun has a community-
wide reputation as an architect. Raised and schooled in America, he earned
a bachelor of science degree at college —
and so forth.
"Well, it probably wouldn't be fair for me to read more of this be-
cause IVIr. Hyun wouldn't have the time or desire to explain it.
But I remember now I have seen this sort of literature before in-
volving you. I have received quite a volume of such literature about
you. And I would think, sir, and I would suggest that you might find a
lot of happiness and satisfaction, in view of the fact that you have
been identified as a Communist before this committee, as j^ou well
know, I would think that you as a Korean-born American citizen
would find a lot of pride and a lot of satisfaction in helping j^our own
United States Congress on the Communist problem.
Mr. Htun. Is this a question ?
Mr. Doyle. No. It is just my statement. I feel I should make it as
I know a good deal about you, I think. More than you know I know.
Mr. Hyun. I believe that I am acting to all the best interests of this
country.
Mr. Doyle. And I would think that you ought to clear up the sit-
uation of whether you were a member of the Communist Party or
are now, in view of the fact that there is sworn testimony before your
United States Corigress, represented by this committee, that you are
or were a member of the Communist Party.
This bulletin states that you would have been executed and killed,
if you were deported back to South Korea.
Now it just seems to me that the American public would be glad
to have you explain why you would have been executed by the South
Koreans if you would have been deported from the United States and
forcibly sent back there.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. If you weren't a Communist at that time and weren't
known to South Korea and Syngman Rhee as a Communist, why
would he have executed you ?
Mr. Hyun. Sir, may I speak? Give my opinions on that?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6717
Mr. Hyun. I believe that the affidavits and the ruling made on
testimony by very many prominent Americans in very high position
on this matter is sufficient for itself. Aiid it has been considered and
action has been taken, and I think it speaks for itself.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; but why don't you speak for yourself? That is
what I am asking you. Why don't you speak up for yourself ? Why
do you rely on hearsay? Why don't you speak up for yourself, sir?
Mr. Hyun. The reason I am defending the Constitution, in my
way.
Perhaps we have a difference of opinion, but that is my — I believe
that I am defending the Constitution and the right to freedom of as-
sociation and belief.
Mr. Akp:ns. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if this Avitness would like to
know that the vei-y McCarran-Walter Act which he has dedicated him-
self to destroy, )jursuant to these various exhibits, contains, for the
first time in the history of this Nation, a provision which is the very
provision which saves his life; namely, that a person, by law, cannot
be deported to a country in which he would be subjected to physical
persecution.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. Arens. In other words, this McCarran-Walter Act, which he
so vigorously attacks because it is tough on Communists, had it not
been enacted this man would have been deported to Korea and would
probably have been shot.
Mr. Doyle. I suggest, David Hyun, that, in my judgment as a fel-
low American, it sort of obligates you to speak up for yourself and not
rely on the affidavits of other people as to your good conduct.
You know what you were better than they do. You are the only
one who knows as well as you do what you have been.
You claim to support the Constitution of the United States. This
committee is here under the Constitution of the United States as de-
clared by the United States Congress. Why don't you come clean on
your own right and speak up for yourself?
Mr. Hyun. I am attempting to be as clean as I can by the position
I have taken. I have not qualified my position. And I believe that is
the most principal position I can take toward support of the Con-
stitution.
Mr. Doyle. Let me ask you now, in view of the fact that I have
maybe imposed a little on you — I don't mean this as a lecture, but, as
I say, I have a good deal of affection for the southern Korean, wdth
whom I lived and sort of fought for a few days.
Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hyun. Are you directing that question ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I am.
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer that question on the same previous
grounds.
Mr. Doyle, Were you a member of the Communist Party in the
United States at the time you had the supporting atKdavits furnished
in your behalf ?
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer the question on the same previous
grounds.
Mr. Doyle. I am not very proud of you.
Any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
6718 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Randles. Is the witness excused ?
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. ScHEREU. Mr. Chairman, there was a controversy a few mo-
ments afjo in which Mr. Brock, attorney appearing on belialf of a
witness
Mr. Brock. I have been subpenaed for tomorrow. Can I suggest
this be put over ? It is a little theatrical now.
Can Mr. Carlisle be excused ?
Mr. Doyle, No.
The subpena was continued until later today. This is a matter
which I think should at least begin to be settled tonight.
Mr. Brock. You have subpenaed me for 10 o'clock tomorrow.
Mr. ScHERER. All right, we will call you tomorrow.
Mr. Brock. I have told you, even though Mr. Walter was not here
to sign the subpena, I am going to honor it.
Mr. Doyle. Do you want Mr. Carlisle here tomorrow morning ?
Mr. ScHERER. I don't care.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Brock.
Mr. Brock. Is Mr. Carlisle excused ?
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. We will call you promptly at 10.
Mr. Brock. I had arranged with Mr. Wheeler to have my other
client on first.
Mr. ScHERER. We may not even need to call you after I read your
previous testimony, because it is here.
Mr. Brock. You can do as you choose.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. I hadn't finished.
As I was saying, Attorney Brock, Robert L. Brock, accused counsel
for this committee of being a liar.
Robert L. Brock was called before this committee on July 2, 1955, a
little over a year ago. I think the pertinent part of his testimony, Mr.
Chairman — and I so move — should be incorporated in the record.
Mr. Brock. I have no objection.
Mr. Doyle. So ordered.
Mr. Scherer. I want to read the questions and answers that settle
the matter.
Mr. Brock. May I ask if counsel is going to read it all ? It is a
little unfair to single out one question.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to be submitted to an oath now ? And we
will get it settled.
Mr. Brock. I am subpenaed for tomorrow.
Mr. Scherer. I have the floor. If Mr. Brock does not desist I am
going to ask that the marshal escort him from the room.
Mr. Brock. I appreciate your concern, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Doyle, you have tried to be fair in this hearing. Fairness re-
quires that if he reads part he read all. This is a basic rule of law
in any civilized community.
Mr. Scherer. I have just asked
Mr. Doyle. Wait a minute, Mr. Scherer. Of course, Mr. Brock,
cases are continued from time to time to complete the testimony and
the evidence. And I would think — I don't know what the text is that
he is going to read, but I would think that it might not be to your dis-
advantage to hear what he will read.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6719
Mr. Brock. I would be happy to read it all.
Mr. Doyle. You are to be here to testify tomorrow morning.
Mr. Brock. I am sorry to interrupt. All I ask is if he reads part
he read it all : not just one thing they can make a little story out of.
Just read it all.
Mr. ScHERER. I will let the press judge for itself. I have asked, Mr.
Chairman, and I think you have agreed.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. ScHERER. It would take about 25 minutes to read it all when
we only need to read several questions and answers.
Mr. Taveuner asked the question [reading] :
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Brock. I am not.
* * * * . jf * *
Mr. ScHEREB. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday?
That was the day before he testified.
Mr. Brock. My answer will be the same to that as I have just indicated to
Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. You mean you are refusing to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment?
Mr. Brock. I am refusing to answer that question on the grounds as follows:
First, that this committee is violating my natural rights ; second, the committee
is not pursuing its proper legislative purpose ; thirdly, on the grounds that I
have rights not to answer as to my associations under the first amendment;
and, fourthly, the first amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment, in
that I do not choose to be a witness against myself.
So it was plain that this witness did deny being a member of the
Communist Party on the day he was before this committee; namely,
July 2, 1955. But when I asked him whether he was a member of
the Communist Party the day before he invoked the fifth amendment.
That settles it. All of the testimony is there.
Mr. Brock. Mr. Chairman, what does it weigh? You know you
can draw no inference from that testimony. I defy you to do it.
Mr. Scherer. Just let me answer it and settle the fact. It settles
the fact that when you were asked whether you were a member of
the Communist Party you invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Brock. All right.
Mr. Scherer, That is what it settles. That is what our counsel said,
that you invoked the fifth amendment. Obviously you conveniently
resigned the day before you were called as a witness.
Mr. Brock. That is untrue. And you know it is untrue.
Mr. Doyle. As I understand it — and then we will drop the subject
until tomorrow — as I remember it, substantially, Mr. Arens' question
this afternoon, or statement, was that you, Mr, Brock, had pleaded
the first and fifth amendments when you were asked whether or not
you were a Communi.st, and you called him a liar.
Mr. Brock. No, Mr. Doyle. If you are asking me, I will be glad to
tell you what it was.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that if counsel is going to engage
in colloquy he submit himself to an oath and we will get the matter
settled in 30 seconds.
Mr. Brock. I am being addressed by the chairman.
Mr. Scherer. I move we adjourn.
6720 coMivruNiST political subversion
Mr. Doyle. You will be here at 10 o'clock tomorrow ?
Mr. Brock. I certainly will.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 15 p. m., Thursday, December 6, the committee
was recessed, to be reconvened at 9:15 a. m., Friday, December 7,
1956. Committee members present: Representatives Doyle and
Scherer. )
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 7, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee OF THE
Committee on Un-American Actia^ties,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
public hearing
The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 9:25 a. m., in room
514, the Federal Building, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle
( chairman of the subcommittee ) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
fornia ; Harold H. Velde, of Illinois ; and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio,
Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
Wheeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and Richard S. Weil,
staff member.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will please come to order.
Of course, v.e will receive the same fine coopeiation we hiul yester-
daj' from the guests in the hearing room in the way of not making
any outbursts either of approval or disapproval. My order still stands
tochiv- to the marshal that, without further order from me, if he ob-
serves any demonstrations of approval or disapproval, to please re-
move that person from the room instantly and not let them return.
There is no smoking, of course, in the room, by order of the marshal.
The room is filled with people, and we Ioiom' that everyone will
cooperate.
Are you ready, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I think, if the committee jilease, as we begin our hear-
ing this morning, I should report that on December 4, I sent this tele-
gram to the Department of Justice in Washington :
Department of Justice: For my purpose as chairman, Subcommittee House
Un-American Activities Subcommittee Los Angeles hearings December 6 and
7, please inform me immediately the number during the 3 preceding years just
ending of jury and nonjury trials under the Smith Act with result as to nuinher
of defendants found guilty and number not guilty. Also number of cases now
pending and with number of defendants invoh^ed. Thanks for prompt
cooperation.
I haven't read this reply yet. But here is the reply to this telegram,
which came to my desk here a few minutes ago.
Washington, D. C, December 6, 1956.
Hon. Clyde Doyle,
Stihcommittce House Vn-American Activities Committee, Federal Build-
ing, Los Angeles:
The following statistics on internal security prosecutions covering period 19.53
to date furnished pursuant to telegraphic request : advocating overthrov>- of
6721
6722 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
United States Goverument in violation of Smith Act, 72 convictions, 10 acquittals,
10 cases pending involving 30 defendants. Seditious conspiracy, 27 convictions,
1 acquittal. Espionage, 1 guilty plea. Conspiracy to commit espionage, 2 guilty
pleas. Theft of Government property, 1 guilty plea, case involving 1 defendant
pending. Conspiracy to remove Government document, 3 guilty pleas. Sedition
and conspiracy to violate sedition statute, case against 3 defendants pending.
Atomic Energy Act, 1 guilty plea, 1 nolo contendere plea, 1 case pending. Trad-
ing With Enemy Act, 2 convictions, 4 guilty pleas, 1 acquittal, 1 dismissal of in-
dictment, case involving 1 individual pending. Conspiracy to violate Neutrality
Act, 3 nolo contendere pleas, 2 convictions, 2 guilty pleas, 2 dismissals of indict-
ments, 5 acquittals, 3 pending trial. False statements and perjury, including
false statements under Taft-Hartley Act, 41 convictions, 6 acquittals, 11 dis-
missals, cases against 8 individuals pending. Conspiracy, perjury and obstruc-
tions of justice, 1 indictment involving 3 defendants pending trial. Obstruction
of justice, 1 individual awaiting trial. Conspiracy to file false non-Communst
affidavits, 1 indictment naming 2 defendants awaiting trial, 1 dismissal.
Foreign Agents Registration Act, trial of 10 defendants pending. Conspiracy
to defraud the Government by filing false non-Communist affidavits, 14 defend-
ants awaiting trial. These statistics relate only to criminal prosecutions and
not to proceedings before administrative boards such as Subversive Activities
Control Board. Information being sent in this form becasue of urgency of your
request which did not specify type of violation but assume you refer to internal-
security prosecutions. Stop. If more detailed information desired please
advise.
(Signed) William P. Rogers,
Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice.
I thought, if the committee please, that, in view of the fact that
Tve are in the Los Angeles Federal Building where the Federal courts
are located in this portion of our great State, it might be appropriate
for me to read one paragraph from the decision by a very distin-
guished United States district court judge. Judge Leon R. Yankwich,
in the case of United States of Am.erica, plaintijf^ v. Sam, Title.
This decision was given as late as June 8, 1955,
I just want to read one paragraph, which I think is very apropos
in light of the use yesterday of some of the witnesses, or attempted use,
of this as a forum to have it appear as something light that we are do-
ing and not important, and interfering with their rights.
This decision by Judge Yankwich, page 193 thereof, reads as fol-
lows:
We have already referred to the fact that the Communist Party of the United
States and the local branch to which the defendant belonged adopted the gloss
which Lenin, Stalin, and the Communist International placed on Marxist teach-
ings. The literature in the record shows that American Communist conventions
and American Communist writers pointed not only to these teachings as correct,
but to the i)ractice embodied in the Russian Revolution and the Communist
dictatorship enthroned by it as the "way out." The following brief quotations
will suffice:
"The experience of the victorious workers of the Soviet Union before, during
and after the seizure of power, throw a brilliant light showing the path which
must be followed in every land, the path of Bolshevism, of Marx, Engels, Lenin,
and Stalin."
Now tliat is what we are dealing with in these hearings. Let me
make it crystal clear that is what we are dealing with in these hearings.
Nothing less. That is the purpose of this committee liere. And the
defining })y this distinguished Federal judge, right in this building, in
tliis case, involving a Comnniiiist, a proven Communist, I thought was
very apropos.
Let's proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Anita Schneider, kindly assume the witness chair.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6723
Mr. Doyle. I think you were sworn yesterday.
Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I was.
TESTIMONY OF ANITA SCHNEIDEE— Eesumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Schneider, for the sake of clarity and continuity
of the record today, may I ask you, first of all, have you been sworn on
this record ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Arens. And you have identified yourself on this record as one
who served your Government during the course of several years at the
behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation as an undercover agent
in the Communist Party ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Schneider. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. For clarity in this record today, please tell the commit-
tee where you served in the Communist Party at the behest of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation and over what period of time you
performed this service.
Mrs. Schneider. This was in San Diego, Calif., from the spring of
1951 until January 1955.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Schneider, you have in the past testified before
this committee on certain other subject matters within the purview
of the committee's interest ; have you not ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Arens. As you know, this series of hearings which the com-
mittee is conducting is with reference to the Communist Party's politi-
cal subversion. In other words, the efforts of the Commimist con-
spiracy via numerous front groups to influence public opinion against
anti-Communist legislative and executive programs.
You are aware of that interest of the committee, are you not ?
Mrs. Schneider. Certainly.
Mr. DoYi^. Mr. Counsel, may I correct an omission on my part.
I neglected to have the record show before this witness took the
chair that the full personnel of the subcommittee is here : Mr. Velde,
of Illinois; Mr. Scherer, of Ohio, and myself, from California.
May the record also show since the committee started this morning
the full committee was present.
Mr. Arens. I should like to ask you if at any time during your ex-
perience in the Communist Party as an undercover agent at the behest
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, did you have any contact with
Abner Green, executive secretary of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Tell us about that in your own Avords.
Mrs. Schneider. I remember that he spoke for a meeting of the
International Workers Organization in San Diego in October 1952.
He came to San Diego in order to start a Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born in that area.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall what he said and what his proposals were?
Mrs. Schneider. He described the work for the protection of for-
eign born in San Diego. We have a large Mexican population. He
emi)hasized (he need particularly of the committee for i)r()tection of
5724 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
foreign born there. And it appealed to people who were attending
the meeting to start such a committee.
Mr. Arens. It is almost like asking if the sun ever shines in Cali-
fornia for me to ask you if Abner Green is a hard-core member of
the Communist Party.
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, he is.
Mr. Arens. And you knew him as such ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, sir.
INIr. Arens. What happened with reference to the proposal of
Comrade Green, for a branch of the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign i3orn in San Diego?
IVIrs. Schneider. The local Communist Party members really
wanted to start such a committee. It was discussed at our Communist
club meetings, at my own Communist club meeting which was com-
posed of Cell a Shermis, the head of the Communist Party in San
Diego, Verna Langer, tlie treasurer at that time, and myself. We
discussed this.
Mr. Arens. Would you pause so we are sure we have the names
clear in the record. And give us the names again, please.
Mrs. Schneider. Certainly. Celia Shermis, S-h-e-r-m-i-s, who was
the head of tlie Communist Party in San Diego at that time. And
Verna Langer, L-a-n-g-e-r, who was treasurer, I believe, at that time.
They were also memxbers of my Communist club group. We discussed
starting such a committee at great length, but it was decided that,
because of the small number of Communist Party members in San
Diego, that we already had as many front organizations as we should,
as we could support.
It was decided to carry on the work as a committee of the Civil
Rights Congress instead.
Mr. Arens. Was it to be a subcommittee within the Civil Rights
Congress ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr, Arens. And was the Civil Rights Congress of San Diego con-
trolled by the Communist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of the formation of this sub-
committee as it was evolved by the Communist conspiracy in San
Diego ?
Mr. Schneider. The Communist Party at that time was admitting
its shortcomings in this particular field. It had neglected to warn
members and require members to take out citizenship papers before
this act was passed, before the McCarran-Walter Act was passed.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of any occasion in which
the man whom you identified yesterday as Comrade John Porter
participated in any of the work of the Civil Rights subcommittee in
opposition to the immigration laws ?
Airs. Schneider. Yes. John Porter and I had several telephone
conveisations in the fall of 1951 about the possible deportation of one
Communist Party member in San Diego named Carmen Edwards,
E-d-Av-a-r-d-s.
He asked me to interview lier. She had been talven to ihe local
naturalization and immigration office, and questioned.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6725
He asked me to find out as much as I could from her about what they
had asked her, submit a repoit to him through local party channels.
This was done.
Mr. Doyle. You mean that you as a Communist were asked by this
John Porter to make a report to him through Communist Party
channels ?
Mrs. Schneider. That is correct. It was to be submitted to Miriam
Starcevic, S-t-a-r-c-e-v-i-c, who was the Communist Party organizer in
charge of the Civil Eights Congress in San Diego.
Mr. Doyle. Then, by his express direction, as I understand it, you
were to report to him through the Communist Party machine in San
Diego and not directly to him. Is that correct ?
Mrs. Schneider. That is correct. The first suggestion was that I
should bring it to Los Angeles, bring that report to Los Angeles di-
rectly to Mr. Porter. But, since Miriam Starcevic, the Communist
Part}' organizer, was coming up to get her directions in Los Angeles,
it was submitted througli her.
Mr. Arens. Do you have an}^ recollection of any public sessions of
the Civil Eights Congress in which Comrade Porter spoke?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. In the late fall of 1954 John Porter came
to San Diego to speak at the Civil Eights Congress, primaj^"ily against
the Brownell-Butler bill. Also against the McCarran -Walter Act.
Mr. Arens. The Brownvvcll-Butler bill is the bill which was enacted
into laAv and became the Comnumist Control Act of 1954. Is that
correct ?
Mrs. ScHNEmER. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. That was an anti-Communist piece of legislation, was it
not?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And did you have occasion in the course of your
acti\4ty in the Communist Party to become acquainted with a person
by the name of Jerome Land ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. And can you tell us about him and his activities?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. There was a Labor Day dinner at the home
of David and Miriam Starcevic, S-t-a-r-c-e-v-i-c, at which Jerome
Land and his wife appeared.
This was the first time I had met Mr. Land. He introduced himself
to me. He said he had just come to the San Diego area from Phoenix.
In Phoenix he had discussed coming to San Diego with Emil Freed,
F-r-e-e-d. E-m-i-1 — and Tassia Freed, his wife, both of whom are
Communist Party members, of course. He was given instructions —
I don't know how to spell Tassia. I am soriT. He was given instruc-
tions to rej^ort in San Diego either to the Starcevics or to me. He said
accidentally he reported to the Starcevics first, knowing that Ave would
meet.
Mr. Arens. Did 3'ou know Jerome Land as a Communist ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do 3'ou here and now identify him as a person who, to
your certain knowledge, was a member of the Connnunist conspiracy?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Was the Walter-McCarran Innnigration and Na-
tionality Act the subject of discussion in tlie legislative program of
the Communist cells with which you were connected?
8r)3;{3— 5T — pt. 1 .38
6726 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mis. Schneider. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. xViid what was the tenor of the discussion with refer-
ence to tlie "Walter-McCarran Immio;ration and Nationality Act?
Mrs. SciiNEiDEK. We were instructed in our Communist cells to do
ever3'thino: possible that could be done to oppose this act, to repeal —
urffe its repeal.
Mr. Arens. Why would the Communist Party be against the Wal-
ter-lNIcCarran Act?
Mrs. Schneider. Well, it opposes everything that communism
stands for.
]Mr. Arens. Is it because the Communist Party can't get its agents
into the country quite as easily?
Mrs. Schneider. That is very true.
Mr. Arens. Is it because under the Walter-McCarran Act there
have been instituted several thousand investigations looking toward
deportation of alien Communists?
]\rrs. Schneider. That is very true.
Mr. Arens. And is it also because under the Walter-McCarran Act
tliey have instituted around nine or ten thousand investigations looking
toward denaturalization of Communists who have obtained citizen-
ship in the United States?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What type of program was initiated by the Com-
munist Party to swav public opinion against anti-Communist legisla-
tion ?
Mrs. Schneider. Petitions were circulated, leaflets were distributed,
s]>eakers were presented to people. We were all urged to write or tele-
graph the Government to urge its repeal. Routine Communist Party
organization.
Mr. Arens, before we go on, I forgot a couple of more points about
John Porter that might be of interest, if you don't plan on coming
back to it.
On one occasion also Celia Shermis, who was the head of the Com-
munist Party in vSnn Diego
Mr. Arens. Spell her name, please.
Mrs. Schneider. S-h-e-r-m-i-s — brought me to Los Angeles with
her. She was coming on an errand for the Conmiunist Party to con-
sult with John Porter at his offices here in Los Angeles. I came with
her at that time and was introduced to Mr. Porter, although I wasn't
present during the discussion.
Also my husband is in the Navy. The Communist Party thought
that he might be given a dishonorable or security discharge at any
time. I was given instructions
Mr. Arens. Was all that during the time you were in the party?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And the authorities didn't know you were serving your
Government as an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation?
Mrs. Schneider. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Proceed.
Mrs. Schneider. I was given instructions that Mr. Porter was to be
the attorney that I consult immediately. In fact, I should bring my
husband to Los Angeles and prepare for that so that we wouldn't be
caught by surprise.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6727
Mr. Arens. While yoii are getting ready there to glance at those
various exhibits, may I just ask you a few questions with reference to
the general pattern of the Communist Party activity in the area in
which you served your Government ?
Is the Communist Party here in the area in which you have intimate
knowledge just a few intellectual dupes or is it a serious operation?
Mrs. Schneider. In my opinion it is the most serious thing that
our country has ever faced.
Mr. Arens. Does it constitute a serious threat to the security of
this Nation ?
Mrs. Schneider. A very real, active danger at the present time.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mrs. Schneider. Because, in my opinion, the Communist Party is
doing everything it can to actively overthrow our Government right
at this time.
Mr. Arexs. And how far into various units of our society has this
conspiracy penetrated within the framework of your experience?
Mrs. Schneider. Into every group. We were ordered to infiltrate
every right-led mass organization.
Mr. Arens. By "right led" you mean a conservative, patriotic
group ; do you not ?
]Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I do. I myself was ordered into- two churches
to take a Girl Scout troop to promote Communist Party aims. I was
ordered into one of the leading political parties. We were ordered to
infiltrate PTA groups, we were told, for one reason. We were to
influence people. People were not coming to our meetings. So, there-
fore, we had to go to the meetings where the people were.
Mr. Arens. To what extent is there a sincerity in the Communist
I*arty protestations of righteousness and of democracy and of de-
fense of the Constitution and all that we have heard before this com-
mittee in the last several hours?
Mrs. Schneider. No, they are not.
To a Communist Party member there is no right and no wrong.
'I'here are only the orders that he is given by the Communist Party
at any one time. That n:iay change from one day to the next. And
their entire activity will center on the instructions that they are given.
Mr. Arens. In their appearances before various congressional
committees, are the comrades given a little briefing before they appear
as to what they are to say ?
Mrs. Schneider. They certainly are.
Mr. Arens. Can you give us any firsthand observations on that?
]\frs. Schneider. Yes, I can.
On one occasion while I was still in the Comnnmist Party — in April
l')r)4, I believe — the House Un-American Activities Connnittee had
hearings in San Diego. Many of our local Communist Party people
had been subpenaed to appear. One of the attorneys was Mr. Ben
Margolis, M-a-r-g-o-l-i-s.
I was given — I was shown a long sheet of nasty remarks tliat David
and Miriam Starcevic were given with orders to memorize tliem be-
fore they went on the Avitness stand so that, no matter what they were
asked, they had a nasty answer to give. And if you Avill considt the
tianscript you will see tliat the nasty answers didn't at all fit the
<luestions. But. no matter wliat they were asked, they had an answer
to give, a nasty one.
6728 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. By whom were you shown that list of nasty answers?
Mrs. Schneider. By David Starcevic.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist?
IVIrs. Schneider." Who is a member of the Communist Party in San
Dieo;o.
Mr. Arens. Spell his name for us, please, Mrs. Schneider.
Mrs. Schneider. S-t-a-r-c-e-v-i-c.
Mr. Arens. Is he a lawyer ?
Mrs. Schneider. No, he is not.
Mr. Doyle. Was that during the hearings of this committee in San
Diego where I presided ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was, Congressman Doyle.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any experience with our distinguished
chairman when you were there in San Diego ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Could you just take a minute to recount those?
Mrs. Schneider. Congressman Doyle and the other membci-s of the
committee appeared in San Diego. I was 1 of the 2 Communist Party
organizers ordered to distribute leaflets in front of the hearing room.
Congressman Doyle received one of the leaflets. When he saw the
type of leaflet that it was, he stormed to the television camera, showed
the leaflet, and demanded to know who had put out that leaflet.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to state that I did not know at the time I was
served with that leaflet that this young lady was an undercoyer agent
of the FBI. I thought she was a bona-fide Commie.
Mr. Scherer. Pardon me — before we get out of this. They showed
you this list. Who was it you said showed you this list of nasty
remarks to make?
Mrs. Schneider. David Starcevic.
^Ir. Scherer. Did he tell you where that list had been })repared?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. Yes; he said that Ben Margolis had given
him the list to memorize before the hearings went on the next day;
that Margolis had come to San Diego the night })efore, and they had
been up most of the night preparing the answers they were going to
give the next day.
Mr. Arens. To w^hat extent does the Communist Party use its
friends and sympathizei-s and dupes to actually pull the chastnuts
out of the fire for it and to do party work ?
Mre. Schneider. On every occasion possible wliere an outsider can
be persuaded to do their work, the Communist Party lias them do it.
Mr. Arens. And why would they do that ?
Mrs. Schneider. Both in order to protect the Communist Party
and also to be of more influence. They realize that their own influence
in the community is limited.
Mr. Arens. Now since you have revealed to the world your former
service to your Government as an undercover agent for the Federal
Bnreau of Investigation, have j'ou been subjected to any harassment
by the comrades ?
Mrs. Schneider. In the halls here in Los Angeles the last time I
came up somebody kicked me in the shins. But, aside from that, the
only Hastiness they have carried on is I receive repeated telephone
calls. I could have my telephone removed, but it is not nocessary.
Mr. Arkns. What is the nature of the telephone calls ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6729
Mi's. Schneider. They merely dial the number, and when tlie tele-
phone is answered they hang up. It varies 20 or 30 telephone calls
during: a weekend perhaps.
Mr. Arens. All these various organizations that w^e are going to
discuss seem to have great humanitarian facades: peace, democracy,
defense of foreign born, good will and brotherhood and all that. Are
the Communists sincere in their objective in that respect, or are these
merely labels behind v>hich a conspiratorial apparatus operates?
Mrs. Schneider. They are merely labels. The Communist Party
takes advantage of people's humanitarian instincts to use them to
promote the Communist Party causes.
We were taught, for example, in connection with the outside leader-
ship— we were taught in our organizations, such as the American
Peace Crusade, that whenever it is possible we should elect an out-
sider, someone influential in the community, preferably a minister —
but it must be someone who can be controlled — to head the organiza-
tion.
Mr. Arens. Who himself would not be a party member ?
Mrs. Schneider. That is quite true. As long as he could be con-
trolled by the organizer, by the Communist Party organizer in charge
of that group.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Com-
munist Party did you know Harry Carlisle as a Communist?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know David Hyun, H-y-u-n, as a Communist?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Marguerite Robinson as a Communist?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Marva Bovingdon, M-a-r-v-a B-o-v-i-n-g-
d-o-n, as a Communist?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know Peter Hyun asa Communist? H-y-u-n.
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. He was my direct superior in the American
Peace Crusade.
Mr, Arens. Now would you just kindly proceed at your own pace
to make reference to the various exhibits which Mr. Wlieeler will
display to you. Tell us any pertinent information you have with
respect to the organization mentioned in the exhibit, any Imowledge
3'ou have respecting the activity of the organization, and whether or
not, to your certain knowledge, it is controlled by the Communist
conspiracy.
Mrs. Schneider. The Citizens Committee to Preserve American
Freedoms.
Mr. Arens. For the purpose of keeping our record clear here, would
you first allude to the exhibit so that the reporter here will know
what exhibit you have in your hand.
In other words, say, "I have in my hand now a document w^hich,"
and describe it and tell us about it, if that is agreeable with you.
Mrs. Schneider. Certainly.
I have in my hand now a document with the heading "Citizens
Committee To JPreserve American Freedoms, Rev. A. A. Pleist, Chair-
man," with a Los Angeles address.
It is an invitation to a public protest mass meeting at the First
Unitarian Church here in Los Angeles.
6730 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The two outlines, or, rather, the letter and the outline that I have
in my hand — Facts and Opinions on the Brownell-Butler Law — were
put out by the Citizens Committee To Preserve American Freedoms,
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 478 and 479,'' see appendix, pp.
7916-7928.)
Mrs. Schneider. I had some contact with that committee.
Mr. Arens. Was it Communist-controlled ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Who was the ringleader in that organization ?
Mrs. Schneider. I didn't work in that organization, and I don't
know who tlie ringleader was. My contact on that occasion was with
Frank Wilkinson, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist t
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Have you any further information with reference to
those two documents to which you are now alluding 'I
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Wilkinson asked me to start a similar
organization or branch of that organization in the San Diego area.
He said that he would give me a list of professional people — teachers,
doctors, and lawyers — in the San Diego area, and that I should contact
them in an attempt to set up such a committee in San Diego.
I brought up the subject at my next Communist Club meeting with
Verna Danger, L-a-n-g-e-r, who was the head of the Communist Party
at that time in San Diego. I questioned her on whether it was correct
to start it, and the best method of starting it in San Diego. She said
it was perfectly all right to try to start it, that she thought that the
professional people in San Diego wouldn't respond, that it wouldn't
be possible to get one going. I could try it if I wanted.
When I discussed this with Frank Wilkinson in Los Angeles I said
that, since I wasn't a professional person at that time, I wasn't active
publicly, that perhaps it might be better to have someone else head it.
I suggested Dr. Harry Steinmetz, S-t-e-i-n-m-e-t-z, of San Diego.
Mr. Arens. Why did you suggest him ?
Mrs. Schneider. He had helped me, or he had started the San Diego
Peace Forum in the San Diego area originally.
Mr. Arens. Was he a Communist or was he just one being used by
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Schneider. He was a Communist.
Frank Wilkinson told me that, although Dr. Steinmetz had come to
Los Angeles, he had been a great disappointment to them, that any
committee that he organized turned out to be a Harry Steinmetz com-
mittee and was not useful to the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of this committee that has such
an appealing name. Citizens Committee To Preserve American Free-
doms? That is a very appealing name. What w^as the purpose of
that organization?
Mrs. Schneider. The purpose of it would be to oppose the Brownell-
Butler law primarily. To oppose the anti-Communist legislation.
Mr. Arens. By the Brownell-Butler bill you mean the Communist
Control Act of 1954, do you not ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have more exhibits to which you would like to
allude?
Mr. Doyle. May I have those two ?
(Documents handed to the chairman.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6731
Mrs. Schneider. The exhibit that I have now is the issue of the
California Le^ishitive Ahnanac for 1954.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 480a, b," see appendix, pp. T929,
7930.)
Mr. Arens. Published by whom ?
Mrs. Schneider. Published by the California Legislative Confer-
ence in Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Proceed at your own pace to tell us about that exhibit
and that organization.
Mrs. Schneider. I had very little contact with this organization as
such. When I was ordered into one of the leading political parties by
the Communist Party, however, I had been sent to the Fresno State
conference. This was in 1954.
Mr. Arens. You were ordered into one of the major political parties.
Is that correct ?
Mrs. Schneider. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Were you ordered to become active in the organizational
work of that major political party ?
Mi*s. Schneider. Yes, I was. As a result of those orders I became
a delegate to the Fresno State convention of that political partv in
1954.
I went to my Communist club for my instructions. Verna Langer.
L-a-n-g-e-r again, was head of the Communist Party at that time.
I said that since I hadn't been active in the right-wing political organ-
izations for some time, I didn't even know hoAv I should vote on issues
that might come up or how to conduct my activities.
Verna Langer gave me this copy of the California Legislative Al-
manac, and told me to consult the voting records of the people that
were listed in there, and to support those people that had supported
Communist Party legislation, and to oppose those who had opposed
Communist Party legislation, and that this was to decide what my
vote would be in each case.
Mr. Arens. Were other persons besides yourself, to your certain
knowledge, ordered into the inner councils, if they could get there,
of the major political parties ?
Mrs. Schneider. All of us were at this time. Up until this time we
had been active in the Independent Progressive Party. We were
ordered, since the Independent Progressive Party was no Icmger a
useful organization, we should become active again in one of the lead-
ing political parties.
Mr. SciiERER. Were any of the Communists successful in pene-
trating the two major parties '.
Mrs. Schneider. With the exception of myself I don't know of any
that were, no.
Mr. Arexs. Have vou anotlier exliil)it to wliicli vou would like to
alhide^
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
I have an outline of the memorandum on innnigration and natural-
ization provisions of tlie McC^iiTan-Wood law ])ut out by the Los
Angeles Committee for Pi'otection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 481," see appendix, pp. 7931,.
7932.)
Mr. Arens. What is the date appearing on that?
Mrs. Schneider. I am trying to see one.
6732 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arexs. The McCarran-Wood law was one designation given to
the Internal Security Act of 1950.
Mrs. Schneider. 1950.
Mr. Arens. I thought perhaps the date would help us identify that.
Was this document published, to your certain knowledge, by mem-
bers of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Schneider. It was distributed to us by Communist Party
members.
Mr. Arens. What is the essence of the document, if you would
care to characterize it ?
Mrs. Schneider. Merely an outline of grounds of deportation, the
country of deportation, the right to bail, reporting and supervision,
failure to depart, cost of travel, immigration and naturalization, de-
naturalization, annual notification of address and additional pro-
visions.
Mr. Arens. Do you have another document ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. I have leaflets on Marie Richardson Harris,
victim of the modern witch hunt.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 482a-c," see appendix, pp. 7933-
7942.)
Mr. Arens. Was she up for deportation ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, she was.
Mr. Arens. Was that a committee or special organization created
by the Communist Party for the purpose of impeding the deporta-
tion of the person whose name heads the committee ?
Mrs. ScHNEroER. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Was that developed by the Communist Party to your
certain knowledge ?
Mrs. Schneider. I am sorry. I don't know that.
Mr. Arens. You do not know ? I wouldn't want you to speculate
if you do not know definitely and certainly.
Do you have another document ?
Mrs. Schneider. No.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, this pamphlet entitled "The Case of Marie
Richardson Harris, the Victim of a Modern Witch Hunt." You say
that pamphlet was distributed here in Los Angeles?
Mrs. Schneider. I have difficulty remembering this particular
pamphlet.
Mr. Scherer. You have no recollection of that pamphlet ?
Mrs. Schneider. I remember seeing the pamphlet.
Mr. Scherer. You remember seeing the pamphlet ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. We were given pamphlets through our Civil
Rights Congress about these cases.
Mr. Scherer. And this solicitation of funds which accompanied
this pamphlet, the solicitation of funds on behalf of the Committee
To Defend Marie Richardson Harris : have you seen that correspond-
ence before this morning?
;Mrs. Schneider. Yes. I know I have seen this. I don't remem-
ber exactly.
Mr. Scherer. I just wanted to make the point that this correspond-
ence emanates from Washington, D. C, and found its way here to Los
Angeles. Marie Richardson Harris was at that time obviously a resi-
dent of the District of Columbia, and the solicitation of funds for this
committee originated in Washington, D. C.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6733
Mrs. Schneider. I still receive them, by the way.
Mr. ScHERER. You what?
Mrs. Schneider. We were put on Communist Party front group
mailing lists. And evidently my name wasn't crossed off of all their
mulling lists, and I still receive requests to subscribe to m:ig:'.zines^
and requests for funds from some of the organizations.
Mr. Velde. Do you still receive the Daily People's AVorld?
Mrs. Schneider. No.
Mr. Velde. Did you while you were an undercover agent ?
Mrs. Schneider. I did until I left the Communist Party. When
I left the Communist Party my subscription stopped. I no longer
received it, although actually they owe me about 3 months, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly allude to another exhibit if there
is one that prompts a recollection with reference to certain organiza-
tions.
Mrs. Schneider. This is a reference to the 20th Anniversary Na-
tional Conference for the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, in Chicago. I remember our local Civil Rights Con-
gress referring to the conference, giving reports on what had taken
place.
This is a copy of one of the reports to the conference.
(See exhibit III, appendix, pp. 8303-8316.)
Mr. Arens. Was that conference Communist controlled?
Mrs. Schneider. Certainly.
Mr. Arens. And do you have another exhibit ?
Mrs. Schneider. This is a copy of a speech made by Harry Car-
lisle : "Speaker's Guide To End the Deportation Drive ; To Eepeal the
McCarran Act and To Protect the Constitutional Rights of All Amer-
icans."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 483," see appendix pp. 7943-7955.)
Mr. Arens. Is the Communist Party interested in protecting the
constitutional rights of anyone?
Mrs. Schneider. It certainly is not.
Mr. Arens. Is the Communist Party dedicated to the destruction
of the Constitution ?
Mrs. Schneider. Completely.
Mr. Arens. Are the Communist Party lawyers who take an oath
as a prerequisite to practicing in the courts of this land to preserve
and protect and defend the Constitution : are they taking that with
any mental reservations?
Mrs. Schneider. They certainly are.
We were all given instructions. For example, from time to time,
as head of the American Peace Crusade in San Diego, it was neces-
sary to sign loyalty oaths to get the use of school buildings. I hesi-
tated to sign such an oath, and consulted Verna Danger, who was the
head of the Communist Party at that time, about whether or not I
should sign the loyalty oath as a member of the Communist Party.
We were all given instructions that whenever it was necessary to sign
anything to avoid it if possible because it carried with it a possible
penalty for perjury ; to keep from doing it. But, whenever it really
mattered, to go ahead and si^ anything or swear to anything.
Mr. Arens. The Communist Party has no morality, does it, other
than the interest of the conspiracy ?
6734 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Schneider. Absolutely none.
Mr. SciiKKKR. Do you know of any cases, other than the one you
related about tlie list given to the Starcevics, where attorneys have
told witnesses who w^ere to be called before this committee what to
say ? Any specific examples ?
Mrs. Schneider. In each case when the Un-American Activities
Committee was going to have hearings the Communist Party attor-
neys would coach the witnesses very carefully beforehand — exactly
Avhat to say and what not to say.
Mr. Scherer. To the extent of baiting the committee ?
Mrs. SciiNEinER. Certainly. That was the main emphasis on their
testimony. Tliey were carefully coached on exactly how to make the
committee the angriest.
Mr. Scherer. We have had testimony in other cities from individ-
uals like yourself that that has been the universal practice by Com-
munist lawyers, to coach witnesses how to bait the committee, although,
under the rules of the committee and as attorneys, they are not sup-
posed to tell witnesses what to say. They are merely supposed to
advise them as to their legal and constitutional rights with reference
to answering questions that might be asked. It has been almost a uni-
versal practice to tell witnesses what to say and how to bait the com-
mittee.
Mr. Arens. Do you have another exhibit?
Mrs. Schneider. These are two more of the leaflets that were sold
or distributed by the Civil Rights Congress in the San Diego area.
Mr. Arens. Could you give the title so the record will reflect the
identity of the exhibits?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. This is a test case for noncitizens and all
Americans, put out by the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. The other was also put out by the American Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No, 484a, b," see appendix, pp. 7956,
7957.)
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Schneider, is communism a disease of the head or
of the heart ? "VVliat makes a Communist ?
We have seen here in the course of these hearings, and in the
course of many years' experience in this work, a number of people
appear before this committee identified as Communists who w^ere
intelligent people.
We had here, just yesterday, a man identified as a member of the
Communist Party who was a doctor of philosophy, a Ph. D. It took
him at least 7 years of intensive training to get that degree. Yet he
is a member of the Communist conspiracy.
How do you account for it ? What makes a Communist ?
We have asked that question innumerable times, and have had vari-
ous shades of answei^ from witnesses.
Mrs. Schneider. In the cases of an intelligent person such as one
of those who testified yesterday I think that very occasionally you will
find in the Communist Party a sincerely idealistic person who is mis-
led by the promises of communism and of the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union and the Communist Party will promise an answer
to anyone's problems no matter wliat they are. Realizing fully that
they will never be answered by communism, they will promise them
anything in order to get them interested in the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6735
Mr. Arens. It has its heart and core in a materialistic philosophy
of life; does it not?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. It denies the primacy of the spirit that you and I liave
a soul; does it not?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. It denies the existence of God ; does it not ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And could you give us your appraisal of how it is that
a force such as communism, which denies the existence of the soul,
denies the existence of God, can engender such a spirit among its ad-
herents when it is only a materialistic philosophy ?
Mrs. Schneider. Part of it would be because of the discipline ex-
erted by the Communist Party over its members. It is sort of a con-
tagious thing. It is more than a religion to most of the Communist
Party members.
When you first become a member of the Communist Party, for ex-
ample, you are encouraged to bring up your personal problems at your
chib meetings, and you are counseled very kindly on them. In the
meantime you are taken out on public picket lines and mass gather-
ings until you are alienated completely from the community, until
you know perfectly well that all of your neighbors realize, and your
community realizes, tliat you are a Connnunist Party member.
Then your personal problems are brought up on a diflPerent basis in
your Communist club meetings. The answers are determined by the
members of your club on the basis of what is best for the Communist
Party itself. If you don't follow these decisions you are not thinking
as a progressive Communist Party member would think. It isn't
tliat you are thrown out of the party ; it is just that you don't ''belong"
any longer, and that is in quotation marks. They exert that discipline
over the silliest things.
For example, I would like to read paperback mystery stories. Oc-
casionally when some of the Communist Party members came to my
house unexpectedly they would find these paperback mysteries. I
have been criticized very severely on the Communist Party basis for
Avasting my time and money on such stuff.
Mr. Arens. I see you have a number of exhibits before you. T should
like to move along if you could just give us a brief allusion to each of
Ihe several exhibits there concerning which you have certain knowl-
edge and the organization wliich inspired the exhibit.
Mi's. Schnetd?:r. This is about two men exiled to death, jailed for
life, the story of Korean Americans.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 485a, b," see appendix, pp. 7958,
7059.)
This was put out by the Korean- American Deportees Defense
Committee.
Mr. Arens. Was that Korean- American Deportees Defense Com-
mittee controlled by the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. That was another creature of the conspiracy to sub-
vert the anti-Communist ])rogram of this Government; is that correct?
Mrs. Schneider. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Proceed to another exhibit, if you please.
6736 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Schneider. That one, by the way, was distributed through
the Communist Party itself. We did not have to — we did not have
a branch of this committee in San Diego. It was distributed througii
the Communist Party itself.
This is "Gestapo At Our Doors."
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 486a, b," see appendix, pp. 7960,
7961.)
Mr, Arens. And who distributes that ?
Mrs. Schneider. The Civil Rights Congress through the Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Was that with reference to the McCarran-Walter
Immigration and Nationalitj' Act?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
These are two post cards, one addressed to Attorney General
McGranery of the Department of Justice, asking for freedom on bail
to Martin Young, and administrative bail to Miriam Stevenson, David
Ilyun, Frank (Carlson, and Harry Carlisle, the Terminal Island Four.
Those were distributed through the Civil Rights Congress.
And the second is addressed to Herman R. Landon, district director.
Immigration Service, in Los Angeles. This was a similar one asking
for release of Harry Carlisle.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 487a, b," see appendix, pp. 7962,
7963.)
Mr. Arens. Communist?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection as to the volume of these
cards that were being sent to the then Attorney General and to the
director of the Immigration Service ?
To your knowledge, were letters of this nature also written on these
cases ?
Mrs. Schneider. I don't know. But we were given a large number
of them and en^^ouraged to distribute them. We were given cards of
this sort with the instructions to take them with us. Whenever we
could find anyone that was — preferably that was not connected with
the progressive movement or the Communist Party, to sign them, that
we should get them to sign them and to mail them ourselves. If we
gave them to them they might not mail them. But we would get
them to sign them, and for us to put them in the post boxes.
We were ordered to do the same thing with letters, to prepare lett^i-s
on these subjects beforehand and get outsiders to sign them, and then
we would mail them.
Mr. Arens. How articulate is the Communist conspiracy and the
people whom they influence in making known in Washington and in
the councils of government the demands and positions of the
conspiracy ?
Mrs. Schneider. Completely. We were told that whenever we had
a meeting, if we didn't produce ])ost cards and telegrams at the meet-
ing, to the Government preferabl}^, the meeting had been a failure.
Some sort of action had to be carried on as a result of the meeting.
Mr. Doyle. Did I understand you, just before this last statement
by you, to say that you were instructed to deposit Communist Party
literature in theXTnited States mail boxes?
Mrs. Schneider. No, Congressman Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Without it being United States mail ?
Mrs. Schneider. No.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6737
I said that we were told to have outsiders sign these cards which
liad been put out by the Communist Party, and for us to mail them
ourselves to make sure that they were mailed and not just stuck in a
wastebasket. Mailed to, for example, Attorney General McGranery,
to the Government.
Mr. Doyle. I see.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the reason our mail is so heavy.
Mr. Arens. We have been told by the conspiracy they can have
50,000 letters in the capital on any subject under the sun in 72 hours.
Is that an overstatement, Mrs. Schneider ?
Mrs. Schneider. Not at all.
We were told when we read our PW's — our People's World — at home,
we should have a stack of post cards right by our side. I was given
these instructions by Lolita Gibson, G-i-b-s-o-n, who was a member of
the Communist Party at that time, who w^as sponsoring my going into
the Communist Party. She said wlienever we hit an issue in the PW
that the Communist Party and the Soviet Union wanted emphasized,
we should make out a post card right then and mail it. And that, also,
we sliould telephone and persuade other people to do it.
Mr. Arens. That brings me to a point I think this record might
well reflect.
The Communist Daily Worker and the Communist Daily People's
World here on the west coast are more than newspapers ; are they not?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes, they are.
Mr. Arens. They are telegraph agencies for the conspiracy ; are they
not?
Mrs. Schneider. They are. They were one method of receiving in-
structions about carrying on Communist Party activity.
Mr. Arens. Now proceed if you have more exhibits, please.
Mrs. Schneider. This is a leaflet, the story of Charles A. Doyle,
distributed by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. That was distributed through the Communist Party itself.
(See exhibit No. 35a-d, appendix, pp. 7144-7147.)
Mr. ScHERER. Let me see that, please.
(Document handed to Mr. Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. While Mr. Scherer is looking at that, may I ask this:
Then here was another case where hundreds of thousands of inno-
cent people, people not aware that they were lobbying Congress at the
instance of the Communist Party membership by virtue of sending
these post cards and such ; is that correct?
Mrs. Schneider. That is correct.
Not only that. Congressman Doyle, but tlirough the American Peace
Crusade we were given leaflets for balloting, for innocent people to
ballot. They wanted an immediate end to the Korean war, yes or no.
Well, everyone naturally would check yes. Then these were for-
warded to the Government with the explanation tluit all of tliese
liundreds of thousands of people were asking for tlie Government not
to carry on this terrible war that they opposed, you see. Tlie poor
people that signed them didn't realize at all what they were signing.
Wa were also instructed to have them deposit thevSe in a shoebox.
And theoretically we were to insti-uct the people tluit did the Iialloting
that they would be counted by a notaiy public, that everything would
be perfectly legitimate. Actually we were instructed to take them
home and count them and turn in the result.
6738 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. In other words, a false representation to the unsuspect-
ing public?
Mrs, Schneider. Completely.
Mr. D0Y1.E. At the hands of the Communist Party in California?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Witness, this last pamphlet you discussed and which
you said was distributed by the Communist Party itself on behalf of
Chai'les A. Doyle
Mr. Doyle. No relative of mine, may I stipulate.
Mr. ScHERER. Will you tell us in what connection this pamphlet
was issued. With Avhat was Doyle charged ?
Mrs. Schneider. He was charged under the Walter-McCarran Act.
Mr. ScHERER. Were they seeking to deport him ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; they were.
It is a story of a, quote, "Frameup Against a Foreign-Born Union
Leader."
Mr. Arens. You are quoting now so the record doesn't reflect that
you make that as an assertion of fact ?
Mrs. Schneider. I certainly am.
Mr. Scherer. Was this Doyle a Communist ?
Mrs. Schneider. I did not know that.
Mr. Arens. He was deported as a Communist, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. That is what I understood. He was deported.
Let me ask you : Did the Communist Party or any of the organiza-
tions whose help they sought to prevent the deportation of aliens
ever go forward on behalf of an alien who was charged with some-
thing other than being a Communist ?
Mrs. Schneider. I have never known of a case of that sort.
Mr. Scherer. An alien who perhaps was charged with larceny or
theft? Do you know of any case where they went forward to prevent
his deportation?
Mrs. Schneider. Never. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. Or an alien that was charged perhaps with burglary
or violation of the Narcotics Act ? Do you know of any case where
they went forward in order to assist that alien, charging that perhaps
he was unlawfully and improperly charged with violation of any of
the laws which I have mentioned ?
Mrs. Schneider. No. I know of one case in which the person was
not a Communist Party member, where that was done through the
Civil Rights Congress.
A man in San Diego that was our local civil-rights case was charged
on four charges of rape. It was discussed within the Communist Par-
ty whether this was a proper case for the Civil Rights Congress to
carry on. It was recognized
Mr. Scherer. They questioned whether the Civil Rights Con-
gi-ess sliould try to assist this man who was charged with rape?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Because he wasn't a Communist. Is that what you
are trying to say?
Mrs. Schneider. He was not a Communist. We discussed it at our
Communist club meetings and with the attorney who worked on the
case at that time.
Mr. Velde. When was that, Mrs. Schneider?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6739
Mrs. Schneider. That was in approximately — the case began, I
believe, in January 1952. It was decided to carry on this case in spite
of the fact that the man was a non-Communist because of the publicity
value. It was recognized within the party, it was realized that the
man was guilty, that his wife admitted that the man was guilty, and,
in spite of that fact, they thought that enough publicity and enough
money could be obtained from the case to make it worth their while
to carry it on.
Mr. SciiERER. Is that the only case that you know of where the
Communist Party acquiesced in the defense of a man cliarged with
deportation proceedings on grounds other than that he had been a
Communist?
Mrs. Schneider. To my knowledge, this man was not charged with
deportation.
Mr. ScHERER. What was he charged with ?
Mrs. Schneider. He was being charged
Mr. Scherer. Just on the plain rape charge ?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. He was subsequently sent to San Quentin.
Mr. Scherer. My question was whether or not you know of any
case in wliich the Communist Party, or any of the organizations set up
by the Communist Party, ever went forward in an effort to prevent the
deportation of an alien who was charged with any other offense than
that of being a Communist ?
Mrs. Schneider. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. DoTT.E. You said a minute ago that the Communist Party
within the Civil Rights Congress membership discussed whether or
not the Civil Rights Congress should defend this man charged with
four cases of rape.
Were the Communist Party members in the Civil Rights Congress at
that time so numerous or powerful that they could control and did
control the policies of the Civil Rights Congress in San Diego at that
time ?
Mrs. Schneider. Completely.
Mr. Doyle. How many Communists did it take in the Civil Rights
Congress in San Diego at tliat time to control its policy completely ?
Do you remember? How many in the Commie cell in the Civil Rights
Congress ?
Mrs. Schneider. I don't know. Congressman Doyle, because I was
not assigned to that. However, the organizer, the Communist Party
organizer that controlled the Civil Rights Congress in San Diego was
Miriam Starcevic, S-t-a-r-c-e-v-i-c.
]Mr. Doyle. It is too bad some well-meaning people got drawn into
organizations without knowing that tliey are controlled by the Com-
munists. Plere is another good illustration.
Mr. Arexs. Do you have another exhibit ?
Mrs. Schneider. Surely.
This is anotlier post card to the Attorney General of the United
States, put out by the American (^ommittee for Protection of Foreign
Boi'ii. This was distributed through our San Diego Civil Rights
ConcTess.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 488," see appendix, pp. 79(i4,
7965.)
Tliis is one of the leaflets put out by the Los Angeles Connnittee for
Protection of Foreign Born. It is Your Rights When Called by the
6740 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Immigration Department and/or FBI. This was distributed through
the Civil Rights Congress.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 489," see appendix, pp. 7966,
7967.)
Mr. Arens. Wliat are they supposed to do if the FBI gets in touch
with them ?
Mrs. Schneider. We were instructed not to give any answers what-
soever, but to call — let me see.
Mr. Arens. To call one of the comrade lawyers ?
Mrs. Schneider. Theoretically we were to call the Civil Rights
Congress, to call the Communist member in the Civil Rights Congress,
and they would contact the Commmiist Party attorney for us.
Mr. Arens. The comrades do not have too high a regard for the FBI
either ; do they ?
IVIrs. Schneider. No ; they don't. Let me correct that. I'm afraid
they do. They really
Mr. Arens You mean they appreciate the efficiency of the FBI?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes. We were ordered not to give them any an-
swers of any sort under any circumstances.
Mr. Arens. Do you have another exhibit ?
Mrs. Schneider. This is another leaflet put out, a similar leaflet
put out by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
on July 22, 1953. It does not have a heading. It refers to the kidnap
deportation — and that is in quotation marks — of Reuben Ship and
Anna Nagin, Burbank housewife.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 490," see appendix, p. 7968.)
This is another leaflet put out by the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, called Proposed Call. It is an appeal
to trade unions and a long list of groups and all those who oppose the
McCarran and McCarran- Walter laws. That was distributed by the
Civil Rights Congress in San Diego.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 491," see appendix, p. 7969.)
This is. Facts Mr. Landon Didn't Tell on the Reuben Ship "Kidnap
Deportation" Case. Another put out by the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. You didn't see anything put out concerning the deporta-
tion of the Hungarians to Siberia ?
Mrs. ScHNEroER. No.
Mr. Arens. There is no question in your mind but what the Com-
munist conspiracy of the United States is part and parcel of the inter-
national conspiracy with 25 million agents ?
Mrs. Schneider. Completely. At one time I was offered an oppor-
tunity, given an opportunity to go to Stockholm, Sweden, to the Inter-
national Peace Conference there. I was told it would be a very simple
thing from there to go into the Soviet Union itself, and that a few
of us would be chosen and permitted to do so.
Mr. Arens. Did they tell you how you would get your passport?
Mrs. Schneider. It would not require a passport. It would be a
very simple thing just to slip across the sea at that point.
This is another leaflet put out by Los Angeles Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, July 31, 1953. This was also distributed
by our Civil Rights Congress.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 492," see appendix, p. 7070.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6741
This is, For Release, Los Anjreles Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, Fact Sheet. Facts You Have Not Been Told by Mr.
Landon.
{ Document marked "Exhibit No. 493," see appendix, p. 7971.)
This is the case of the Terminal Island Four ag^ain.
Tins is the Fact Sheet on Deportation Cases on the Terminal Island
Four.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 494," see appendix, pp. 7972-
7974.)
This is a press release from the Los Angeles Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born on an essay contest in December 1952. The
title of the essay is to be "The Bill of Rights and the Freedoms of the
Foreign-Born Americans."
( Document marked "Exhibit No. 495," see appendix, p. 7975.)
Each time a committee was set up while I was in the Communist
Party it took some time to decide on the title of the committee. Even
for temporary committees we would deliberately choose just as patri-
otic a title as possible, preferably one that had a title similar to a non-
Communist patriotic organization such as the Civil Rights Congress.
Not a nonpatriotic. I should separate that. The Civil Rights Con-
gress is not one of the patriotic non-Communist organizations I was
referring to.
Tliis is another leaflet with the date July 27, 1953, put out by the
I^os .Vngeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born on the Ter-
minal Island Four again.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 496," see appendix, p. 7976.)
This is a news release put out by Los Angeles Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. It describes the deportation orders under the
McCarran-Walter law for David Hyun and Miriam Stevenson.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 497," see appendix, p. 7977.)
Mr. Arexs. That completes the exhibits you presently have for pur-
poses of identification.
Mr. Doyle. May I return these ?
]Mr. Arens. jMrs. Schneider, we deeply appreciate your testimony
before the committee. We would interrogate you further, but you
have already appeared before the committee and given testimony with
respect to other areas of the committee's interest.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoiT.E. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. I have no further questions. I would like, for the rec-
ord, to commend Mrs. Schneider for her very excellent testimony. And
I personally appreciate the service you have rendered to the LTnited
States of America.
Mr. Doyle. I am sure Mr. Scherer and I join in that appropriate
remark.
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
( "\Miereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee membei*s pres-
ent : Representatives Doyle, Velde. and Scherer.)
(The committee reconvened at the expiration of the recess. Com-
mittee members present: Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order.
Let the record show that Mr. Scherer and Mr. Doyle are present,
and Mr. Velde temporarily absent. But a quorum of the subcom-
mittee being present, we will proceed.
85333— 57— pt. 1 39
6742 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Leonard Liiclel, kindly come forward.
Mr. Egbert L. Brock. Mr. Doyle, I am attorney for Mr. Liulel, and
I feel compelled to witlidraw as attorney in view of the attack made
on me by Mr. Arens and the siib|)ena issued.
Mr. Doyle. Raise your right hand.
Do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LuDEL. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Will you be seated.
TESTIMONY OF LEONARD LUDEL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROBERT L. BROCK
Mr. ScHERER. In order that counsel may represent this man, I move
that the subpena issued on counsel yesterday be quashed.
Mr. Doyle. If there is no objection, the motion will be granted.
Mr. Brock. May I ask one further thing. I would appreciate, Mr.
Doyle, not being made a target of any of Mr. Arens' attacks. He has
been very courteous to Mrs. Schneider. I would like the same courtesy.
That is all I ask. He has made an attack on all the lawyers here.
Mr. Arens. You know that isn't true. The only attack is a recitation
of the record with respect to people who have been identified as mem-
bers of the conspiracy. In your particular case it was a reference
to a record of this committee in which you, under oath, invoked the
fifth amendment when you were asked whether or not you had ever
been a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. Let's proceed. We have been very glad to quash this
subpena so that you could appear in comfort and so that your client
could feel that he has had a free choice in selecting counsel of his
preference.
Mr. Brock. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Now kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Ludel. My name is Leonard Ludel. My residence^ is 3571
Beethoven Street. I am a self-employed diamond cutter.
Mr. Arens. Where?
Mr. Ludel. At 315 West Fifth Street, Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing here today in response to a subpena
whicli was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Ludel. I didn't get the question.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
v;as served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities ?
Mr. Ludel. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Ludel. Yes, I nm.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, w^ould you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Brock. Ilo})ert L. Brock,"B-r-o-c-k, of the firm of Brock, Easton,
Fleishman & Rykoti', of Hollywood, Calif.
(Representative Harold H. Velde entered the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Doyle. Mav I interrupt at this point to have the record show
that Committee Member Velde has now taken his place with the sub-
committee. Thank you.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6743
Mr. Arens. Mr. Liidel, I want to be sure I pronounce your name
right. IsitL-u-d-e-1? Is it one"!*'?
Mr. LuDEL. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Leonard Ludel.
Mr. Ludel. That is right.
Mr. Arens. How long have you lived in this community ?
Mr. Ludel. Eleven years.
Mr. Arens. Where did you live immediately prior to the time you
came to this community '?
Mr. Ludel. New York City.
Air. Arens. And how long did you live there ?
Mr. Ludel. From approximately 1927 to 1944.
Mr. Arens. And where did you live prior to the time you lived in
New York City ?
Mr. Ludel. Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. And how long did you live there at that time ?
JSIr. Ludel. From 1924 to 1927.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you, Mr. Ludel, an exhibit
bearing your signature. It consists of two Communist Party inde-
pendent nominating petitions in New York City, addressed to the sec-
retary of state of New York State.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. These two petitions both bearing your signature, are
for the purpose of causing the Communist Party to be registered on
the ballot.
Please look at the photostatic copies of these documents and tell
this committee whether or not you can verify the authenticity of your
signature.
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Ludel. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 498a, b," see appendix, pp. 7978,
7979.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as and
when this witness signs a voucher for his witness fee and travel ex-
pense, that that part of the vouclier bearing his signature be incor-
porated in the body of the record so that there may be a comparison
of signatures.^
Mr. Brock. No objection.
Mr. DovLE. The order is made.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Ludel, have you been connected with the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Ludel. I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we direct your attention, if you please, to a check,
a photostatic copy of a check, Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, payable to Leonard Ludel, endorsed by Leonard
Ludel.
Kindly look at that check and see if you will verify the authenticity
of your signature, your endorsement there.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 499," see appendix, p. 7980.)
Mr. Ludel. I refuse on the same grounds.
Mr. Arexs. What is that button I see on your lapel ? Would you
help us on that ?
^ Signed voucher not returned at date of printing of testimony.
6744 CORIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. LuDEL. Yes. It says "To Repeal the Racist Walter-McCarran
Act."
Mr. Arens. What organization gave you that button ? Would you
tell us?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LuDEL. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer that
question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer.
Mr. IvUDEL. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Velde. Did you have to buy that button ?
(The witness confei*s with his counsel.)
Mr. LuDEL. Same answer.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer Mr. Velde 's
question. In my opinion, he has waived any privilege he has.
Mr. LuDEL. 1 refuse to answer this on the grounds of the fii*st and
fifth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. May I say, for the record, it is the opinion of this
member of the committee that, by answering the question with refer-
ence to the button, he has waived any privilege that he might have of
invoking the fifth amendment with respect to other questions con-
cerning the button.
Mr. DoTLE. The witness has been directed to answer counsel's ques-
tion. I will make it clear to the witness again that you have been di-
rected to answer that question.
Mr. Brock. He knows that, Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Arens. That little button doesn't contain on its face or on tlie
back of it the name of the organization that is actually sponsoring this
drive ?
Mr. Brock. Would you like it in evidence? You may have it.
Mr. ScHERER. I think it should be put in evidence.
( Exhibit retained in committee files. )
Mr. Arens. We thank you very much, counsel.
Mr. Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. What else have you done besides displaying that button
to try to cause the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Immigration and
Nationality Act?
Mr. Ltjdel. I think that this committee does not have the power to
inquire into my beliefs, my opinions, or my associations.
Mr. Arens. We are not asking you about your beliefs or your opin-
ions. We are asking about your actions.
Mr. Brock. I don't want to be contumacious
Mr. Arens. Counsel shall be advised here and now that his sole
and exclusive prerogative before this committee is to advise his wit-
ness of his constitutional rights.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. SciiERER. The witness hasn't finished his answer, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. LuDEL. It was on this basis that I invoke the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. SciiERER. Would you talk a little louder? I don't think our
counsel can hear you. You dropped your voice. But I could hear
that von hadn't finished.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6745
Mr. LuDEL. And I said it is on this basis that I invoke the first and
fifth amendments to the Constitution.
Mr. Arexs. Now we want to displav to you something; that might
be a little helijful to us in seeing what you have done to accomplish
this objective indicated on this button you have been wearing.
It is an open letter to the Democratic Party clubs, signed Leonard
Ludel, chairman, legislative committee, Los xVngeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
Please lool; at this document as Mr. Wheeler displays it to you and
see if you can verify the authenticity of that document and your par-
ti cii)at ion in that enterprise.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 500," see appendix, p. 7981.)
]\Ir. Ludel. The first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You have been chairman of a legislative committee of a
certain organization for the purpose of developing sentiment for the
repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act ; have you not ?
Mr, Ludel. Same grounds.
Mr. Arens. We show you now a document which is a reproduction of
a telegram sent to the platform committee of the Democratic National
Convention, Morrison Hotel, Chicago, 111. :
Urge inclusion of repeal of McCarran-Walter Act. This un- American law must
be changed in the coming session of Congress.
We urge that you do likewise and that you contact all possible organizations
to send telegrams as well.
Signed by Leonard Ludel, chairman, legislative committee, Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Look at that and see if you can, while you are under oath, tell
this committee whether or not you are accurately described and if
that is a true and correct representation of the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 501," see appendix, p. 7982.)
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Ludel. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds already
given.
Mr. Arens. Now we have a copy of a letter which you sent to the
chairman of the United States Senate Judiciary Committee, then
urging repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act, signed Leonard Ludel,
legislative director of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
Look at that document and see if it doesn't refresh your recollec-
tion.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 502a," see appendix, p. 7983.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Ludel. I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. And we have still another letter on the letterhead of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Boru, signed
Leonard Ludel, chairman, legislative committee, addressed to "Dear
Friends," telling the dear friends who are the recipients to contact the
various Senators and Congressmen insisting upon a certain legislative
program, alluding to some 70 organizations which are dedicated to
the repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Now, while you are under oath, please tell this committee whether
or not that is your signature, and tell us what you did in that regard.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 502b," see appendix, p. 7984.)'
(The witness examines document.)
6746 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. LiT>EL. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds already
jjiven.
Mr. Arens. T put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that befjinnin^ in 1936 and up until the present time you are
and have been a member of the Communist Party. If that is not true,
deny it while j'ou are under oath,
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LuDEL. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds already
given.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to affirm or
deny the fact that you are now one of the topflight organizers in this
Los Angeles area of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. LuDEL. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoYLE. Questions, Mr. Velde?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. DoTLE. Questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. D0YI.E. What objection do you have to the present provisions of
any of the Federal statutes dealing with our national security ?
Mr. LuDEL. Might I confer first?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. You will notice, Witness, for your- guidance, I am
limiting my question to the area of any of the Federal statutes deal-
ing with our security or our antisubversive legislation.
Mr. LuDEL. Mr. Doyle, ordinarily I feel free to discuss my beliefs,
my opinions, and my associations. Under the circumstances of being
here under the coercion of a subpena, I do not feel so. And for this
reason I cannot answer your question, on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. I wish there were some way we could get the true
opinions of people as to those areas and know the source from
which they come instead of having them come from Communist fronts
or false fronts without revealing the source. It makes it difficult for
us in Congress to legislate as intelligently as we ought in all cases
where a lobby comes through false representation.
I would say to you, and it may surprise you, but why don't you
communicate to us your objections to the antisubversive features of
any present existing legislation? I invite you to do that over your
own signature so we will know who we are dealing with.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Don't do it through a bone fide Communist front.
Is the witness excused?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Brock. Thank you. We appreciate the courtesy.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Frank Wilkinson, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Did you hear me, Mr. Wilkinson ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I did.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6747
TESTIMONY OF FKANK WILKINSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
A. L. WIRIN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identitfy yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Wilkinson. My name is Frank Wilkinson.
Mr. Arens. And your residence, please ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I feel that it is no proper concern of this com-
mittee.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Mr. Wilkinson.
We are certainly entitled to know where you live.
Mr. Wilkinson. As a matter of conscience and personal respon-
sibility, I am refusing to answer any questions of this committee.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any other reason you want to give us now
besides your conscience ?
Mr. Wilkinson. Because I challenge, in the most fundamental
sense, tlie constitutionality of this committee.
Mr. Arens. We will get to that in a minute. Do you have still
another reason ?
Mr. Wilkinson. It is my belief
Mr. Arens. We don't want to probe your beliefs.
What is the reason j^ou do not want to tell us your address ? Just
let's get to the point.
Mr. Wilkinson. Because Congress had no authority to establish,
this committee in the first instance, nor to instruct it with a mandate
which it has.
Mr. Arens. Have you still another reason, some place in the back
of your mind ?
Let's get to that now.
Mr. Wilkinson. I feel that the House Committee on Un-American
Activities stands in direct violation of the first amendment of the
Constitution.
Mr. Arens. You have still another one ; haven't you ?
Let's get to that one.
Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this committee truth-
fully what your address is you would be giving information that
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Wilkinson. I have the utmost respect of Congress to have the
broadest possible powers to investigate; but Congress cannot inves-
tigate into areas in which it cannot legislate. And this Un-American
Activities Committee attempts, by its mandate and by its practice,
to investigate
Mr. Arens. Do you have still another reason? Let's get to your
real reason and then get on with the next question.
Mr. Scherer. Just let me interrupt. He has been directed to an-
swer the question as to his residence. He has not done so. Proceed
to the next question .
Mr. Arens. He is still giving a reason why he won't tell his res-
idence.
Mr. ScKTERER. Mr. Arens, as a member of the committee, I ask we
proceed to the next question. Let's go to the next question.
6748 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle, lie has taken a good 4 or 5 minutes to answer the
question.
Have you any other answer to give to my direction that you an-
swer that question ?
Mr. Wilkinson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. What is it?
Mr. ScHERER. I don't think we have to force from him the use of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. Oh, no.
Mr. Scherer. If he doesn't want to take the fifth amendment, let's
proceed. Let's go to the next question.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation, if you please? Would you tell
us your occupation ?
Mr. Wirin. May he conclude his reasons? And may I enter my
appearance ?
Mr. Arens. You will be entered on the record at the appropriate
time.
And your occupation, if you please ?
Mr. Wirin. We are addressing the Chair.
Mr. Arens. We had a little trouble here yesterday and you know
■we did.
We will have your name entered in due course. Counsel, appro-
priately, pursuant to the committee practice, as we do with every
other counsel. Please identify yourself by telling us your occupation.
Mr. Doyle. AVe identify the counsel as soon as the witness is
identified.
Mr. Arens. Part of the identification of the witness is his occupation.
Mr. Wirin. May he finish the reasons briefly ?
Mr. Arens. You just advise your witness.
Please tell us your occupation, Witness.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of this committee,
and I am stating my reasons for not answering. And I have not com-
pleted my answer.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute. I aslc that you direct the witness
to answer the question as to his occupation. I want to get this record
straight. Let's keep it straight.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Wilkinson, you heard the question clearly, did you,
by counsel ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Now Avould you please answer the question with respect
to your occupation ?
Mr. Doyle. Did you hear the question, Mr. Wilkinson ? I 'am mak-
ing the record clear whether or not you heard it because you have
told me in recess that you arc liard of hearing, and. manifestly, you
are because you are wearing an earphone. I want to make sure that
you hear every question that is asked you.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of this committee
because the House Committee on Un-American Activities stands in
direct violation, both by its mandate, by its existence and by its prac-
tices, of the first amendment to the Ignited States Constitution. This
committee should be abolished, and the question is none of your
business.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6749
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Wilkinson, did you hear the committee counsel
ask as to your occupation ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I did.
Mr. Doyle. All right.
'\^niat is your answer to that question ?
Mr. AViLKiNSON. I refuse to answer any questions of this committee.
Mr. Doyle. All right. I direct you to
Mr. ScHERER. You have directed him. T^t's proceed to the next
question. There has been a direction.
Mr. Arens. Does the record show a direction for him to answer?
Mr. Scherer. It has shown a direction. It is my recollection there
has been a direction to answer.
]\fr. Velde. Mr. Wilkinson, there is no question but what you are
in legal contempt of this committee, but do you in your heart have
contempt for this committee of Congress ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of this committee. I
challenge the fundamental constitutionality of the House Committee
on Un-American Activities.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Anita Schneider, are you in the hearing room?
Mrs. Schneider. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. ]\Ir. Wilkinson, would you kindly look around over your
left shoulder at the lady who is standing in the rear of the hearing
room.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities.
Mr. Doyle. You have repeated that at least five times. So let's save
time. You don't need to repeat it.
Mr. WiRiN. Is this an appropriate time to
Mr. Arens. Counsel, you know your only prerogative is to advise
your witness.
Mr. AViRiN. I just want to enter my appearance. That is all.
Mr. Arens. We will get to that in a moment.
Now, Mr. Wilkinson, that lady standing testified here a little
while ago under oath that she knew you as a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy.
Was she lying or telling the truth ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions.
]Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask you direct the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. Doyle. I am directing you to answer committee counsel's last
question, Mr. Wilkinson.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions, on the grounds of my
initial answer.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. WiRiN. If this is an appropriate time for me to do it, my name
is A. L. Wirin.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any other identification, please, sir?
Mr. AViRiN. I tliink that is all that is necessary at this time. I was
one of counsel who argued to the Supreme Court the Quinn, Emspak,
and Bart cases.
Mr. Doyle. Where is your ofllce. Mr. Wirin 1
6750 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. WiRiN. My office in Los Angeles is 257 South Spring Street. I
am concerned about civil liberties for all.
Mr. Arexs. Now, Mr. Wilkinson, we want to display to you an ad-
vertisement that was in the newspaper just last night by the Citizens
Committee to Preserve American Freedoms — attacking this commit-
tee, urging the reader of the advertisement to send a contribution to
defray the cost of the educational campaign, and to write his Congi'ess-
man to vote against appropriations for the House Un-American Activ-
ities Committee, and other things.
Kindly look at this advei-tisement and tell this committee whether
or not you caused that advertisement to be inserted in the newspapers.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 503," see appendix, pp. 7985,
7986.)
(There was no response.)
Mr. DoTLE. Did you hear the question, Mr. Wilkinson?
Mr. Wilkinson. I did.
Mr. Doyle. What is your answer?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no question of this committee.
I challenge their constitutionality.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Wilkinson, I am directing you to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions, an the grounds of
my initial answer.
Mr. Scherer. Does your initial answer include an invocation of the
fifth amendment?
Mr. Wilkinson. My initial answer stands as I made it.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Wilkinson, where were you born?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions.
Mr, Arens. I respectfully suggest, Sir. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. DoYi.E. I direct you, Mr. Wilkinson, to answer that question.
Mr. Wilkinson. I refuse to answer any question, on the grounds
of my initial answer.
Mr. Scherer. I think we should ask him — I see the position he is
taking.
Does your original answer include the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Wilkinson. My original answer stands as I made my original
answer.
Mr. Scherer. Are you refusing to answ^er this question on the basis
of the fifth amendment?
Mr. Wilkinson. My original answer stands as I made my original
answer.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer my question, whether his refusal to answer your direction to
answer the question is based in any way on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answ^er that question, Mr. Wilkinson.
Mr. Wilkinson. My original answer stands as I made my original
answer. I challenge, in the most fundamental sense, the constitution-
ality of this committee.
Mr. Scherer. All right.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6751
Mr. Akens. You spoke about your conscience a little while ago not
permitting you to testify before this committee.
Has your conscience bothered you any with respect to the decimation
of thousands of people in Hungary recently by the Communist con-
spiracy ?
Mr. WnJiiNSON. I am answering no questions.
Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I make the direction, INIr. Wilkinson, that you answer the
question.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of this committee,
on tJie grounds of my initial answer.
Mr. Arens. Has your conscience bothered you any about any par-
ticipation you may have had in the Communist conspiratorial appa-
ratus in the United States ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am refusing to answer any questions.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer this last question.
Mr. DoTLE. I direct you, Mr. Wilkinson, to answer that last question.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am refusing to answer any questions of tliis com-
mittee on precisely the grounds of my initi al answer.
Mr. ScHERER. This is important. Are you refusing to answer this
question that the chairman has just directed you to answer with ref-
erence to your connection Avith the Communist conspiracy, invoking
the fifth amendment as a basis for your refusal to do so ?
Mr. Wilkinson. My initial answer is my answer.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Wilkinson, we lay before you a document, a
voluminous document which has been identified in this record, of the
Citizens Committee to Preserve American Freedoms. According to
this document, the Citizens Committee to Preserve American Freedoms
amiounces a new public information service to organizations, speak-
ers, literature and action recommendations on the Brownell-Butler law,
the so-called Communist Control Act of 1954.
Kindly look at that document and see if you can tell us whether
or not you are in a position to verify its authenticity.
(See exhibit No. 479, appendix, pp. 7917-7928.)
( Document placed on witness table. )
Mr. DoYLE. Did you hear counsel's question, Mr. Wilkinson ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I did. '
Mr. Doyle. I want to make sure that you did hear it all.
Have you an answer to that question ?
Mr. Wilkinson. That is no proper concern of this committee.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Mr. Wilkinson, to anwser that question.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am refusing to answer any questions of this
committee. I challenge the constitutionality of the House Committee
on Un-American Activities in the most fundamental sense.
Mr. ScHERER. All right. Let the record show, because it does not
disclose, that the witness has refused even to look at the document
presented to him.
Mr. Arens. What was the Burns-Chapel bill? Do you recall?
6752 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Wilkinson. That is no proper concern of this committee.
Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be orderocl and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you, Mr. AVilkinson, to answer the question.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions, on the grounds of
my initial answer.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before 3'ou a photostatic copy of the Com-
munist Daily People's World, an article entitled "L. A. Professionals
Spur Fight on Chapel Bill," telling about a number of people who
are heading a legislative drive on the Burns-Chapel bills, a drive to
"halt legislative repeal of the fifth amendment through the Burns-
Chapel bills," identifying a Frank Wilkinson, here referred to as
executive secretary of the citizens committee.
Kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not it accurately
describes you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 504," see appendix, p. 7987.)
( Document placed on the witness table.)
]VIr. Doyle. Did you hear the question, Mr. Wilkinson ?
Mr. Wilkinson. I did.
Mr. Doyle. Do you see the document referred to before you on the
ta 1 )le ? Will you look at it and answer the question ?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. Have you an answer to the question,. Mr. Wilkinson?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of this committee,
on the grounds of my initial answer.
Mr. Doyle. I direct that you answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Let the record show that the witness did not look at
the document presented to him.
Mr. Arens. Does the record show a direction ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; it did.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Witness, we lay before you two original
letterheads of the Los Angeles Committee for the Protection of
Foreign Born, each of which bears the name, as a sponsor, Frank
Wilkinson.
Kindly look at those documents and tell the committee whether or
not vou are accurately described.
(See exhibit No. 502a, b, appendix, pp. 7983, 7984.)
(Documents placed on witness table.)
Mr. Wilkinson. That is none of your business.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question, Mr. Wilkinson.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions here, on the grounds
that I have stated.
Mr. Scherer. Let the record show the witness did not, again, look
at the documents submitted to him.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to lay before you still another exhibit
from the Communist Daily People's World of October 30, 195-2, the
un-Americans fingered Frank Wilkinson, CHA Information Director.
That refers to the Un-American Activities Committee of California
State.
Look at this article, if you please, sir, and tell this committee whether
or not you are accurately described here as CHA information director,
city housing authority information director.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 505," see appendix, p. 7988.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6753
Mr. WiLKiNsox. That is no proper concern of yours.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Mr. Wilkinson, to answer that question.
Mr. WiLKiNsox. I am refusing to answer all questions of this com-
mittee, on the grounds AThich I have stated.
]Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, we have a number of other questions to
pose to this witness, Avhich, in the judgment of the staff, are pertinent,
relevant, within the proper jurisdiction of this committee and its
various purposes, legislative purposes and otherwise. But, in view
of the attitude of this witness and his abject refusal to give any
information at all, to answer any questions, I feel it would be an
imposition upon the time of the members of this committee. I think
it Avould be absolutely futile for us to continue.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, in vieAv of the
position taken by this witness in refusing to answer any questions,
that that will conclude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. Just one question. Do you actually want to be cited for
contempt of Congress ?
Mr. WiLKiNsox. I am answering no questions of this committee.
Mr. Scherer. I think we missed two of the questions that we should
ask. May I ask them ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Are you at present a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of the committee.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Mr. Wilkinson.
Mr. Wilkinson. I am answering no questions of this committee, on
the grounds of my initial answer.
;^Ir. Scherer. In refusing to answer the question I have just asked
you, and which the chairman directed you to answer, are you refusing
to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment?
Mr. W^iLKixsoN. I am refusing to answer any questions of this com-
mittee on the grounds which I have stated.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Mr. Chairman, to me there is no question that
this witness is in contempt, and I move that this subcommittee recom-
mend to the full Committee on Un-American Activities that this
witness be cited for contempt of Congress.
Evidently he has taken this position because he knows that this
Congress adjourns or expires within the next 30 days.
And I am going to ask that steps be taken, as provided by law, to
obtain such a citation for contempt.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Velde?
Mr. Velde. Aye.
Mr. Scherer. Aye.
Mr. Doyi.e. Chairman Doyle : Aye.
Steps will be taken by the committee.
Are there any other questions of the witness?
If not, the witness is excused.
Thank you, Mr. Wirin.
6754 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Akens. The next witness, if you please, would be Mr. Howard
Goddard.
Would you kindly come forward.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. "Goddard, do you solemnly swear to tell the tnith,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
jVIr. Goddard, I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you have a chair.
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD GODDARD, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goddard. These lights are bothering me, and the flashbulbs.
May we have that stopped, please ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. The cameramen will please hasten. And did the
cameraman hear the witness' objection to the lights, please. Is there a
question ?
Mr. Arens. A question is outstanding, Mr. Chairman. I asked the
witness to kindly identify himself by name, residence, and occupation.
Mr. Goddard. Howard Goddard, farmer, 2002 South Vern, Ontario,
Calif.
Mr. Arens. Did you say farmer ?
Mr. Goddard. Farmer.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing here today, Mr. Goddard, in re-
sponse to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Com-
mittee on Un- Ainerican Activities ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goddard. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by comisel ?
Mr. Goddard. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been a farmer ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goddard. I will refuse to answer that question and any similar
01 related questions on the grounds of the first amendment, which
guarantees freedom of speech and of thought and association, and on
the further ground of the fifth amendment, which provides that no
person shall be compelled to be a witness against himself.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Goddard, I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation immediately prior to be-
coming a farmer?
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Mr. Goddard, the
last question.
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been abroad ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6755
Mr. GoDDARD. I will decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in Spain ?
Mr. GoDDAKD. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. You were a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade
in Spain, were you not, Mr. Goddard ?
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer on the same gi'ounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a couple of
documents bearing your signature which indicates you served in the
Spanish Army in 1937.
Look at these documents and tell this committee of the Congress
whether or not those are true and correct signatures of yourself.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 506a-c," see appendix, pp. 7989-
7991.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goddard. I will decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mrs. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness signs a voucher for his witness fees and per diem
expenses, that that part of the voucher bearing his signature be in-
corporated in the body of the record so there may be a comparison of
signatures.
Mr. Doyle. So ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 506d," see appendix, p. 7992.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Goddard, you have been cultivating something else
besides the soil around these parts in the last several years ; have you
not?
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. We want to see if you have been cultivating public
sentiment here on immigration matters.
Mr. "Wlieeler is going to lay before you a series of letterheads
of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in which
you are listed as one of the leaders of that group here.
Look at the letterheads and see if you are accurately described.
(See exhibit No. 502a, b, appendix, pp. 7983, 7984.)
(The witness examines documents.)
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document we want to invite
to your attention. This is a Southern California Conference To
Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and To Defend Its Victims, and
next is the Sixth Annual Conference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran
Law and Defend Its Victims. And on each of these documents, dupli-
cates of the original documents, we see your name listed as one of the
sponsors.
Kindly look at those documents and be good enough to verify their
authenticity for this committee.
(The witness examines documents.)
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. .^■07a. b," see appendix, pp. 7993,
791>4, and exhibit No. 467, appendix, p. 7901.)
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer on the same gr()un<ls previously
stated.
(The witness confers witli his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Goddard, did vou ovei- livo at 405 West Ely
Street. E-l-y Street, in Ontario, Calif. '( '
6756 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. GoDDAKD. 1 refuse to answer that question on the fjrounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. x\rens. Would you accommodate the committee by looking at
this photograph of a person, and tell us whether or not that is your
photograph ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 508," see appendix, p. 7995.
(The witness examines photograph.)
Mr. GoDDARD. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. We have here the list of the sponsors of the Southern
California Conference To Defend the Rights of Foreign Born Amer-
icans, which includes a Howard Goddard identified here as an inter-
national representative of the Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union.
Please look at this document and tell us whether or not you are
accurately identified as the international representative of the Mine,
Mill and Smelter Workers Union.
(See exhibit No. 447, appendix, pp. 7870, 7871.)
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer left the hearing room at this
j)oint.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Goddard. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now the Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union was
ejected from the CIO because the CIO found that it Avas Communist
controlled ; isn't that true ?
Mr. GoDDAUD. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoTLE. Any questions ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Morris Goodman, kindly come forward.
Mrs. Rosenberg. He is out in the corridor.
Mr. Arens. Would the marshal kindly page him ( 1 understood
someone to say he is out in the corridor.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Goodman. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Just be seated.
TESTIMONY OF MORRIS GOODMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROSE S. ROSENBERG
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Goodman. My name is Morris Goodman — 211% Berendo
Street — and I am a solicitor of general insurance.
Mr, Arens. How long have you held that post ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. (lOODMAN. I will refuse to answer that question, but, in refusing,
I am giving my refusal based upon the fact that I don't see how it
would be within the purview of any legislative function of this com-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6757
niittee as to how long I was occupied in any particular type of work
such as I just mentioned and also to protect myself I invoke the first
amendment, which gives me the right to be occupied and which gives
me those rights : specifically I would invoke my constitutional privilege
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing here today in response to a sub-
pena which was served upon you by the House Committee on I^n-
American Activities?
Mr. GooDMAX. I am.
Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Goodman. I am.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
^Irs. KosEXBERG. Rose S. Rosenberg, b-e-r-g, of Los Angeles.
Mr. Arexs. I don't believe I got your address accurately there, ISIr.
Goodman.
Mr. GooDMAX'. 211% North Berendo Street in Los Angeles.
Mr. Arexs. How' long have you been engaged in your current occu-
pation ?
Mr. Goodman. This question, I believe, Mr. Arens, was previously
asked me, and I invoked two constitution privileges, the first and
the fifth. And I will again protect myself with those particular pro-
visions ; namely, the first and fifth.
Mr. Arexs. Let's pinpoint it a bit.
Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this committee truth-
fully how long you have been engaged in your present occupation you
would be supplying information that might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GooDMAX'. "Well, I will refuse to answer this question, but in
my refusal I am not unmindful of the fact of what took place during
the time of Torquemada.
]\rr. Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Goodman. This is not a forum.
Mr. GooDMAx.. I am not — I am refusing to answer. It is going to
be very brief, Mr. Doyle. If you will just be patient Avith me, I am
a man of very few words.
Mr. Doyle. Make them very few.
Mr. GooDMAX. I am, but please bear with me. I will not interrupt
any member of your committee, and I ask the same courtesy to me.
Whenever I am interrupted my brain or my thoughts go astray and
then I have to start all over again.
Now will you please bear with me and do not — or any other mem-
ber— interrupt me, and I guarantee you I will listen very patientl.v.
Mr. Doyle. To make it clear, I will interrupt you if you plan to
make a speech.
Mr. GooDMAX. I will not make any speeches.
Mr. Doyle. All right. Then proceed.
Mr. GooDMAX. I started to say that I would refuse to answer this
question and that I was not unmindful of the fact, in reading his-
tory, of what took ])lace during the period of Torquemada. I am not
unmindful of the fact of what took place during the Cotton Mather
period and Avitch hunts in Salem. And I —
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
Mr. GooDMAx. I am surrounded by you people here. Now I find
myself
85333— 57— pt. 1 40
6758 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. I am interrupting you deliberately because you are mak-
ing a speech that is not pertinent to this question.
Mr. Goodman. I refuse to answer at this point.
Mr. Doyle. I am instructing you to answer the question and stop
your speech.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Now go ahead.
Mr. Goodman. The question that I believe was propounded to me
was : Are you honestly afraid ?
(Eepresentative Gordon H. Scherer returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Goodman (continuing). And I can tell you that I am sincerely
and honestly afraid of this committee and the atmosphere in which
I find myself, and I am fearful of the entire proceedings. And, in
order to make sure that I am not giving up any of my rights, I will
now invoke both the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to express yourself on Budapest while you
have taken us around the world to various geographical areas ?
Mr. Goodman. I said in the
Mr. Arens. Was there any recent event in Budapest that may have
stimulated your thinking?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. Are you asking me my opinion ?
Mr. Arens. You were giving us geographical areas as indications
of certain events that occurred, created great
Mr. Goodman. I am concerned
Mr. Arens. Emotional experiences w^ithin your mind. I thought
perhaps you might want to allude to Budapest because it is so fresh
in all our minds.
Mr. Goodman. I am concerned with things that happen all over the
world.
Mr. Arens. Were you concerned with what the Communist con-
spiracy did in Budapest ?
Mr. Goodman. I am concerned with many things.
Mr. Arens. Let us be specific.
Are you concerned with what the Communist conspiracy
Mr. Goodman. I will refuse to answer this question.
Mr. Arens. You don't want to talk about the Communist con-
spiracy ?
Mr. Goodman. What ?
Mr. Arens. The Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Goodman. I wasn't speaking about anything.
Mr. Arens. You are a man of few words. You have been doing
quite a good deal of talking for a few minutes. Orate for a few
minutes, if you would, please, on the Commmiist conspiracy and
what you know about it.
Mr. Goodman. I previously told you that I was fearful of this com-
mittee. And, therefore, I must invoke both the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. How old are you, Mr. Goodman? Could you tell us
that?
Mr. Goodman. Mr. Arens, does it have anything to do with
legislation?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6759
Mr. Arens. It will in just a moment if you will kindly answer
the question for us.
Mr. Goodman. Are you going to make a new old-age bill ? I want
to know because I believe
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the witness be ordered
and directed to answer that question.
Mr. DoTLE. You are instructed to answer the question.
Mr. Goodman. I will invoke both the first and fifth amendments,
and refuse to answer.
Mr. Ajrens. Now we want to show you an eidiibit : "Happy Birth-
day Morris Goodman. A Good Man." On his birthday. There is
gomg to be interesting entertaimnent. He is "a jolly good fellow"
and "a right kind of a guy." All under the auspices of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Look at that little leaflet
and tell us whether or not you remember that festive occasion on
which you had your birthday celebrated by the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 509," see appendix, p. 7996.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. You, being a man of lew words, could answer that
question, I am sure, either "Yes" or "No."
Do you remember it ?
Mr. Goodman. You have asked me now 2 or 3 questions. I wish
you would ask me one question.
Mr. Arens. I will certainly accommodate you. Just strike all the
questions.
Do you remember that festive occasion on which you were felicitated
by the Los Angeles Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Goodman. I know of no law that prohibits the celebrating of
anybody's birthday.
Mr. Arens. Not at all. And we want you to tell us about it. We
are not trying to inhibit you at all. We want you to talk, even
though you are a man of few words, on communism.
Tell us whether or not you recall that little occasion on which
you were felicitated by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born.
Mr. Goodman. I then will have to refuse, and I will invoke both
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Why ?
Mr. Goodman. This, too, I will invoke my previous privileges,
namely, the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. We have here a couple of checks.
Somebody, by the way, has misspelled Angeles. I am surprised
an organization of this extent and niterest would misspell Angeles:
L-o-s A-n-e-g-1-e-s.
Two checks of tlie Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign liorn, payable to Morris Goodman, and tliey are both en-
dorsed Morris Goodman, Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Bom, which would lead me to believe, as a lawyer, that the
Los Angeles Conmiittee for Protection of Foreign Born and Morris
Goodman must have some connection for that endorsement to take
place.
Now would you help this committee in its legislative purposes by
telling us whothor or not that is your signature endorsing the checks
6760 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
of the Los Aiif^eles Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom?
And 3'ou can do so in a few words.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 510," see appendix, pp. 7997,
7998.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. I will invoke both the first and fifth amendments,
and refuse to answer this particular question.
Mr. Arens. Now we have a copy of the Communist Daily People's
World with reference to a bail bond committee created for the purpose
of causing the temporary freedom for a David Hyun, H-y-u-n, who,
by the way, was before this committee yesterday.
According to this Communist Daily People's World, Morris Good-
man is the bail fund treasurer. And it quotes Morris Goodman here
in this article. This is the Communist Daily People's World,
Tell this committee if this publication accurately and truthfully
identified you and quoted you in your capacity as treasurer of the
Hyun bail fund.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 511," see appendix, pp. 7999,
8000.)
(The witness examines docmnent and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. Mr. Arens, would you please repeat the question,
I have lost track of it.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Does this publication accurately describe you
when it saj^s you were treasurer of this bail fund for Hyun, the Com-
munist who was up for deportation ?
Mr. Goodman. First of all, is it illegal to post bail for anybody ?
Mr. Arens. No. We want you to tell us about it. There is nothing
illegal about posting bail if it is done legitimately and by a legitimate
organization. So just tell us about it now. If what you did was
legitimate and was not part of a conspiratorial apparatus, just tell us
about it.
Mr. Goodman. I misunderstood you.
Mr. Arens. Just say was it you or was it not j^ou.
]\Ir. Goodman. I will refuse to answer this question, and I will in-
voke both the firet and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to lay before you letters on the letterheads
of the Ix)S Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in
which your name appears as one of the leaders of that organization,
at various dates indicated on the letters.
Please look at those and tell us whether or not 30U are accurately
described in those letterheads.
(See exhibit No. 502a, b, appendix, pp. 7983, 7984.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mr. Goodman. My counsel is protecting my interest by copying
down some of this information for my protection. So please be
patient, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Well, if you would kindly answer the question we will
let the counsel copy all day. We want to move along.
Mr. Goodman. I will refuse to answer that question, and I will
invoke both the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now do you know a person by the name of Marion
Miller?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6761
Mr. Goodman. I will refuse to answer this question both on the
first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Marion Miller took an oath before the
Subversive Activities Control Board back in Washington and swore
to tell the truth, and she laid her liberty on the line knowing that if
she lied she Avould be prosecuted for perjury?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. INIake sure that the witness is listening
to3'ou.
Mr. Arens. Marion Miller told the Subversive Activities Control
Board while she was under oath that she knew you as a member of the
Connnunist Party.
Was Marion Miller perjuring herself? AVas she lying or was she
telling the truth?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. The name that you mention apparently is your wit-
ness and not mine. And, therefore, I would refuse to answer this
question, and I will invoke both the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Max Silver?
Mr. Goodman. The same answer to this question that I gave in the
preceding question.
Mr. Arens. Now Max Silver testified under oath, laid his liberty
on the line, and said he knew you as a member of the Communist con-
spiracy when he testified before the House Committee on Un-American
Activities.
Was ]\Iax Silver lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Goodman. Apparently he is your witness, Mr. Arens. I will
refuse to answer this question.
Mr. Arens. Well, was he lying ?
Mr. Goodman. Let me — just a minute, Mr. Arens. I told you be-
fore if you
Mr. Arens. I am sorry to interrupt you.
Mr. Goodman. Don't apologize. Don't be sorry. Just be courteous
and let me listen to you, and I will answer you. And let there not be
any interruptions here. Now I have to start all over again.
Mr. Arens. I am awfully sorry about that. Just tell us now.
]Mr. Goodman. Ask your question.
Mr. Arens. Tell us now, in as few words as possible, was Max Silver
lying when he identified you as a member of the Communist con-
spiracy ?
Mr. Goodman. I started to tell you before, apparently this person
is yoiu' witness. And, therefore, I will refuse to answer the question.
I will invoke both the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You were fired from the job you had immediately prior
to your present job ; were 3'ou not ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. I will refuse to answer this question, and I will base
my refusal on the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever work for B'nai B'rith ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. Did I hear Congressman Scheror ask me a (luestion?
Mr. Arens. Did you ever work for B'nai B'rith ?
Mr. Goodman. No. I heard an intervening question.
Mr. Doyle. He was speaking with me.
6762 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr, Arens. Did you ever work for B'nai B'rith?
Mr. GooDMAX. We are now inquiring into the area of my associa-
tions.
Where I belong, where I work, I believe I have that right to do
under the provisions of the Constitution of the United States in
which we live.
I will refuse to answer this question, and I will invoke both the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Pardon me just a minute.
If you say you have a perfect right — which we think you do, cer-
tainly working for B'nai B'rith is a legal occupation — how could you
possibly incriminate yourself if you told us whether you worked for
B'nai B'rith?
Mr, Goodman-. Mr. Congressman Scherer, I prefaced my remarks at
the initial part of this proceeding by answering Counsel Arens, when
he asked me was I fearful of this committee or fearful of the answer,
and I think I made it quite specific that the entire area in which I
find myself, the entire atmosphere, makes me fearful of any question
that you may ask no matter how innocently phrased.
But, in order to make sure that I am not giving up any of my rights,
I will refuse to answer that question, and I will invoke both the first
and the fifth amendments in my refusal.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and I ask you to affirm or
deny the fact, that B'nai B'rith fired you when B'nai B'rith learned
that you were a member of the Communist conspiracy.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. In order to save time, I will invoke the same answer,
and I will invoke the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact also that you were a delegate
to the fifth annual conference to protect the rights of foreign-born
Americans representing the Jewish- American Cultural Club in the
Los Angeles area.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goodman. I believe the question embodied the fact that — in
order to make sure, would you please repeat your question?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Reporter, would you kindly read the question back
to the witness.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Goodman. Foreign-born people should have protection just the
same as animals, birds
Mr. Arens. Of course, they should. And they ought to have legiti-
mate protection. Just go ahead and tell us about that.
Mr. Goodman. Fishes. Well, I will refuse to answer this question,
and I will invoke both the first and the fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. ISIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes the
stajBF interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Arens, may I ask this question before the testimony
on that witness is closed.
You referred to Marion Miller and Max Silver. Are they both
Los Angeles residents?
Mr. Arens. I«et me confer with Mr. Wlieeler just a moment. Yes,
sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUB VERSION 6763
Mr. DoTLE. Thank you.
May I ask that "we have a recess ?
Mr. Arens. Wlienever it meets the pleasure of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. Then the committee will stand in recess until a quarter
of two.
(Wliereupon, at 12 noon, the committee was recessed, to be recon-
vened at 1 :45 p. m. Committee members present : Representatives
Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— FRIDAY, DECEMBER 7, 1956
(The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess,
at 2 p. m. Committee members present: Eepresentatives Doyle,
Velde, and Scherer.)
Mr. DoYLE. The meeting will please come to order.
Mr. Wheeler notihes me that it is apparent one Joseph Kline is ill,
and he is under subpena. This is to notify the attorney for Joseph
Kline that the subpena is quashed, and he will not be called.
Do you know who made that remark? If you do, eject the man.
If you can't be respectful and observe the amenities of a conces-
sional hearing you ought to leave the room. I don't care who it is.
Let me make this clear, please.
If the person ejected from the room is a witness, he is not excused
from his subpena. He is ejected from the room because he is disturb-
ing the peace of the committee. And his subpena is not quashed. He
will be called later as a witness.
It is too bad that a few smart alecks haven't courtesy enough to re-
spect the purpose for which this hearing is called but try to destroy
the pleasure of other people. But as long as I am chairman of this
subcommittee, I am not able to excuse anyone from deliberate dis-
courtesy in trying to disrupt the meeting. And they might just as
well understand that. That applies to everybody, whoever they are.
They will have to be an American citizen first in a public meeting.
Are you ready, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Rose Chernin, C-h-e-r-n-i-n. Kindly come
forward.
Mr. DoYLE. Mrs. Chernin, will you please raise your right hand
and be sworn.
That is your left hand. Your right one. Thank you.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help yoi;. God ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROSE CHERNIN KUSNITZ, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, A. L. WIRIN AND JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. KusNiTZ. My name is Rose Chernin. I live at 3048 Victoria
Avenue. And, in respect to my occupation, I Avould like to consult
with counsel.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
0764 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. WiRix. May our appearance be entered at this time, Mr. Chair-
man ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. While Mr. Arens is busy, will the attorneys
identify themselves for the record.
Mr. WiRiN. I will state who I am. My name is A. L, Wirin, and I
am associated with
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. Because of the character of these hearings, the
witch-hunt character of these hearings, I refuse to answer the ques-
tion as to my occupation, and claim the privilege under the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mrs. KusNiTz. I refuse, and claim the privilege under the first and
fifth amendments as I stated before.
Mr. Arens. Are you Miss or Mrs. Chernin ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. My name is Mrs. Chernin.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. Yes.
Mr. Arens. That subpena is a subpena duces tecum, Mrs. Chernin,
requiring you to produce before this Committee on Un-American
Activities certain documents, principally documents which are in the
nature of letters and correspondence between the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born relating to the Smith Act,
the Internal Security Act, the Immigration and Nationality Act and
excerpts from certain minutes of designated meetings.
Are you the custodian of the documents called for in the subpena
duces tecum ?
Mr. Wirin. Before that is answered may the entire subpena be in
this record ?
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mr, Wirin. Mr. Chairman, is it proper to ask that the subpena
be
Mr. Arens. I suggest that counsel be advised his sole and exclusive
prerogative is to advise his client.
Now would you answer the question.
Mrs. KusNiTz. Would you please repeat the question.
Mr. Wirin. May we have a ruling on that ?
Mr. Doyle. You instruct your witness, Mr. Wirin, and we will make
the record as required.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly answer the question.
Mr. Wirin. May I confer with Mrs. Chernin for a moment.
(The Avitness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ki^SNiTZ. Before I answer this question may I request the
chairman that my subpena be placed in the record ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that will be done in due course. We
have an orderly procedure we have followed in this committee for
years. If counsel has been reading tlie records of this committee he
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6765
Avould know it. Counsel also should know that his sole and exclusive
preroo;ative is to advise his witness.
iSIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and
directed to ansAver that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\Irs. KusNiTz. Will you please repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Are you the custodian of the records which are called
for in the subpena duces tecum which Avas served upon you?
Mrs. KusNi'i'z. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct the witness to ansAver that question.
Mrs. KusxiTz. I refuse to answer this question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, solely for the purpose of establish-
ing in this record the status of this particular Avitness with reference
to the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, we
have a number of exhibits Avhich Ave Avant to be introduced into this
record.
Now, Mr. Wheeler will display to you the report of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, by Rose Cliernin, desig-
nated as executive director, Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at this document and tell this committee whether or
not you Avill verify the authenticity of the document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 512," see appendix, pp. 8001-
8005.)
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
ilr. ScHERER. May I ask counsel a question while they are deliberat-
ing-
Counsel, you say this Avitness is required to bring certain records
under that subpena ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. And after we have established in this record
her identity as executiA'e director of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, I anticipate a direction by the chairman
to tliis Avitness to fortliwitli produce such records.
Mr. Scherer. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question?
(The Avitness confeis with lier counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. Will you please repeat the question?
Mr. Arens. Kindly look at the exhibit which Mr. Wheeler has just
displayed to you, in which you are identified as executive director of the
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and tell the
committee Avhether or not that is a true and correct identification of
yourself.
]Mrs. KusNiTz. I refuse to ansAver this ({uestion on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Madam Witness, Ave lay before you photostatic copies
of the signature cards of the California Bank, bearing the signature
of Ivose Chernin as executive director of the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at those and see if you will be good enough to attest to
their authenticity.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 513 and 514," see appendix, pp.
8006, 8007.)
(The Avitness confers with lier counsel.)
6766 COJVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. KusNiTz. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you a number of checks signed by
Rose Chernin for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, and we ask you to kindly look at those and verify their au-
thenticity.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 515," see appendix, pp. 8008-
8017.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as and
when this witness signs a voucher for her per diem and witness fees,
that part of the voucher bearing her signature be incorporated in the
body of the record for the purpose of comparing signatures.
Mr. Doyle. It will be so directed.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 516," see appendix, p. 8018.)
Mr. Arens. Now, Witness, we lay before you a number of exhibits
of the letterheads and other documents of the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, bearing the signature Rose Chernin,
executive secretary, as the various dates indicate.
"We ask you to kindly look at those and if you would be so good
to verify their authenticity.
Mrs. KusNiTz. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, in view of the status of the record
at the present time, I respectfully suggest that the record now reflect
the full text of the subpena duces tecum served upon this witness, with
a direction to the witness by the chairman now to forthwith produce
before this committee the documents called for in the subpena duces
tecum.
Mr. Doyle. You have heard the statement by counsel, Mrs. Chernin.
I adopt his language for my direction to you to now produce each and
all of the documents specified in the subpena duces tecum which was
served upon you.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly, Mr. Chairman, order now that the
body of the subpena duces tecum be incorporated in the record.
Mr. Doyle. I direct that the copy of the subpena duces tecum which
was served upon you be incorporated in the record of this hearing.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 5l7a, b," see appendix, pp. 8019,
8020.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. I have brought no records or documents.
Mr. Arens. Where were
Mr.WiRiN. Excuse me. May she answer ?
Mr. Arens. Counsel, you advise your client. Continue with your
answer, please. Witness.
Mr. Wirin. Thank you.
Mrs. KusNiTz. May I answer your first question, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead.
Mrs. KusNiTz. I have brought no records or documents because it
is my sincere conviction, first, that this committee has no power or
right to compel any person to produce before it records relating to
efforts to repeal, revise
Mr. Arens. You are reading from that statement before you ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. I am referring to the statement.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6767
Mr. Arens. And tell us, while you ure referring to it, who prepared
the statement.
Mr. WiEiN. May she finish her answer ?
Mr. Arens. You know your sole and exclusive prerogative is to
advise your client.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Chernin, let me explain.
I think you probably already know, if you are reading from a state-
ment, that is one thing. If it is a prepared statement, as you know,
the rules of the committee are that any ])repared statement shall be
submitted to the committee.
So, if you are reading from a prepared statement now without
having submitted it to the committee, you are in violation of the
committee rules.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. On the other hand, if you are merely referring to a
statement or memorandum, that is different.
I think, as a matter of good faith with the committee, you should
state what you are doing.
Are you reading a statement ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. I am referring to notes that I made.
Mr. Arens. Did you make those notes 'i
Mrs. KusNiTZ. Under the circumstances — I will answer one question
at a time.
Under the circumstances that I find myself, with five trained at-
torneys and a hostile committee, I think I should be given the courtesy
to answer the questions from notes that I have prepared. It is not a
prepared statement in that reference. Notes. I am not a trained legal
attorney.
Mr. Arens. Now kindly answer the question. Did you jDrepare
those notes ?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. I am surprised at you asking such a question. Are
you inferring that I am incapable of preparing my answer?
Mr. Arens. I suggest that this lady be ordered to answer the ques-
tion. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Manifestly, you are very capable. But certainly it is
fair to the committee to state whether or not the}'^ are your memoranda
01' whether or not someone else prepared them for you.
If you are referring to your notes, that is perfectly proper. But if
someone else has given you a statement, then we are entitled to know
it.
Mr. WiRiN. She has said they are her notes, Mr. Chairman. The
record will show that.
Mr. Arens. Counsel knows
Mr. WiRiN. Please don't lecture to me.
Mr. Arens. You and I may tangle before we get through here be-
cause you are not going to run this procedure.
Mr. WiRiN. I won't be the first one you have tangled with.
Mr, Arens. You won't be the last one.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Chernin, that is a fair question. Cooperate with
us. Did you make those notes yourself or did someone else?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. I refuse to answer this question because I consider
this an invasion of my rights to counsel.
6768 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. jNIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mrs. KusNiTz. I refuse on the grounds stated.
Mr. Doyle. Then I am asking you, as chairman, to produce the
paper from which you are reading instead of liolding it under the
table.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTZ. Mr. Chairman, I will be happy to produce these notes
to you after I am finished.
Mr. Doyle. I am asking you to do it now because I think we are
entitled to know from Avhat you are reading. If they are your notes —
O. K. But if they are somebody else's notes we are entitled to see from
what you are reading.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. You are in the presence of a rule which says that any
prepared statement sliall be furnished to the conmiittee. You are
referring, according to your own statement, to notes that at least were
prepared before the meeting. But they haven't been submitted to the
committee. And they don't have to be if they are memoranda. But
if it is a prepared statement it has to be.
Now why do you hesitate in letting us know or see whether or not
it is a speech or prepared notes ?
Mr. Porter. Because she is trying to answer your questions, Mr.
Chairman, and you don't give her a chance to. That is why.
Mr. Arens. Comrade Porter, let's not have any further outbursts
from you.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that counsel be admonished
now that his outbursts will not be tolerated by this committee, and if
he does not restrain himself and exercise proper decorum he, likewise,
will be ejected from this hearing room,
Mr. WiRiN. I am one of counsel here, and I resent any colleague of
mine being insulted or referred to by Mr. Arens — is that fair ? "Would
you do it? As a lawyer?
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
Mr. WiRiN. Or you, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Look, Mr. Wirin, I tangled with you the last time.
I have tried to keep quiet. I have tried to keep quiet
Mr. Wirin. Please do so now.
Mr. Scherer. During your outbursts. If you don't desist, if vou
don^t
You talked to me now. You addressed yourself to me. I have
kept quiet. And if you don't, I am going to ask the Los Angeles Bar
to look into your conduct.
Mr. Wirin. I wnsh you would.
Mr. Scherer. Because I am sick and tired of 3'our conduct since I
have been coming to Los Angeles.
Mr. Wirin. Why don't you doit? I ask you to do it.
Mr. Scherer. I am. It is about time tliey do something in this
county.
Mr. Wirin. Let me talk to an older and wiser man.
Mr. Doyle. Keep quiet, please.
Mrs. Chernin, I am going to take the initiative as chairman of the
committee. I can't tell wdiether you are violating the rules of this
committee or not because you are holding the document from which
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6769
you are reading under the table. You are not putting it on top of the
table so it can be seen. And I am going to refuse to allow you to refer
to that paper unless you ))roduce it.
Mr. WiRiN. May we speak to the woman ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Manifestly you are able to testify without notes.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Chairman, these — this is not a speech and not
a prepared statement in the sense that I understand a prepared state-
ment. These are notes which I prepared. And if you insist on seeing
them noAv you can do so.
(Document handed to the chairman.)
Mr. Doyle. Thank you for your cooperation.
Mrs. KusxiTz. And may I ask that you make this part of the record,
please.
Mr. WiRiN. These are her reasons, you understand, Mr. Doyle.
They are brief.
Mr. Doyle. I can read.
Now this that you handed me, Mrs. Chernin, is a typewritten sheet.
Everything on it is typewritten.
Did you type them ?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Doyle. You can answer that question.
Did you type them ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. Y'es; I did.
Mr. WiRiN. It is a legal reason
Mr. SrHERER. She has a right
Mr. DoYLE. Mrs. (^hernin, I think it is entirely proper for you to
refer to that if you wish.
Mrs. KrsNiTZ. I was going to say to you, Mr. Chairman, that if you
wish to read it into the record, I certainly yield.
Mr. DoYLE. No. But you are entitled, in my judgment, to refer to
that in your reply to questions.
Mrs. KrsxiTZ. Mr. Chairman, may I ask you to ask counsel of the
committee to refrain from attacking my attorney ?
I consider this attack provocation enough for my attorney not to
wish to defend me.
Mr. Velde. And you, in exchange, tell your attorneys not to attack
the committee and violate its rules which they well know.
Mr. Doyle. Let's proceed, Mrs. Chernin. We called you first this
afternoon as a cordial courtes}^ to j^our counsel because he wanted to
get away promptly. And we are glad to do it. So let's not have any
of tliese unimportant arguments, please. Go ahead. We wanted to
accx>mmodate Mr. Wirin and you, too.
Mr. SciiERER. You may, but I don't.
Mr. Wirin. Y'ou will change your mind.
Mr. Doyle. What was the last question?
Mr. Arens. The witness was in the process of reading a prepared
statement.
Mr. Wirin. She had said it was not a j^repared statement.
Mr. Arens. Now, Counsel, you must understand your sole and exclu-
sive prerogative here is to advise your client.
Mr. Do-iXE. Let me make tliis entirely clear, please.
The statement appears to me as entirely more than a memorandum.
It is a consecutive, well-made statement in typewriting. Each point
is well argued. It is far more than a memorandum in my judgment.
6770 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
But go ahead, for the sake of time, and refer to it. It is far more
than a memorandum.
Mr. ScHERER. It is a legal document.
Mr. DoYi.E. Please go ahead.
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Chairman, this is — I consider this a memoran-
dum, and I shall refer to it. I have brought no records or documents
because it is my sincere conviction, first, that this committee has no
power or right to compel any person to produce before it records
relating to efforts to repeal, revise or influence the revision or repeal
of the Walter-McCarran law or any other legislation.
For the committee to demand such records violates the first amend-
ment to the Constitution.
If I were to comply I would contribute to that violation. This; I
am unwilling to do as an American.
The second reason : I am advised by counsel that the subpena is so
broad, so vague and sweeping as to constitute an illegal search and
seizure under the fourth amendment.
Then, third, in my opinion, this committee has no lawful authority
to exist or to issue subpenas of anj^ kind. But, even if it had this
authority, the documents demanded in that subpena are not pertinent
to any authority which it claims.
The fourth : I assert my right under the fifth amendment not to be
a witness against myself.
And, finally, I invoke every right given to me under the Constitu-
tion and Bill of Eights to express my belief that it is a monstrous
outrage for this committee to use its powers to prevent Americans
from seeking to influence public opinion for the revision or repeal of
this vicious, racist Walter-McCarran law, and I regret sincerely that
Mr. Walter is not present so that I could address him personally.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Chernin, I think I am entitled to have the record
show that you clearly read every word you spoke. You didn't refer
to that as a memorandum at all, and I think it was clear to everyone
that you read the document. You were reading from the document.
Mr. SciiERER. May I make this further observation, Mr. Chair-
man. She testified under oath that she had prepared that document.
It should be obvious to everybody that she is not telling the truth
wlien she said slie prepared that document. That is a legal document,,
well done.
Mr. WiRiN. That is a very unfair remark, and, as a lawyer, I
resent it.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that counsel be
now admonished if he does not restrain himself and comply with the
rules of the committee that the committee will order him removed from
the hearing room.
Mr. "\ViRix. Do I have to sit and hear someone call my client a liar
in this hearing ? This is a disgrace.
Mr. Velde. I move he be ejected from the courtroom immediately.
Mr. SciiERER. I call for a vote.
Mr. WiRiN. I appeal to your sense of conscience and fair play.
Mr. SciiEREK. I am not going to put up with this any more.
Mr. Velde. I am not either.
Mr. SciiERER. And I am just siir[)rised that the Los Angeles bar
has put up year after year with tlie conduct of you gentlemen before
this committee. I have been here three times.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6771
Mr. WiRiN. May I answer or do I have to sit quiet ?
Mr. ScHERER. I move that the lawyer be removed from the court-
room.
Mr. Velde. I move the previous question.
Mr. Doyle. The question you have heard.
Mr. Scherer?
Mr. ScHERER. Aye.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. Aye.
Mr. Scherer. We do not have to come here and take this kind of
conduct.
Mr. Doyle. That is the ruling of the committee.
Mr. WiRiN. Now what do you want me to do ?
Mr. Scherer. You can leave voluntarily or the marshal will take
you.
Mr. WiRiN. I will not leave voluntarily. I will leave short of being
ousted. I will not resist physically any marshal.
But isthat your order, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Doyle. You heard the motion, and it Avas carried by the major-
ity of the committee. And I regret that — because we are all members
of the bar. and so are you
Mr. WiRiN. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. But in my judgment. Al Wirin. you clearly continued
to violate the rules of the connnittee after fair warning. There is no
question in my mind that you did it. And we are all sorry that yoti
did insist on doing it, but we can make no exceptions. You know that.
Mr. Wirin. All I did was object to my client being called a liar^
Mr. Doyle. Don't you think you would have done it if you were her
lawyer ?
Mr. Doyle. I wouldn't have violated the rules of a committee be-
fore which I was appearing as an ethical lawyer.
Mr. Wirin. You wouldn't sit and have your client insulted.
Mr. Doyle. I would either comply with the rules of the committee
or I would refuse to be hired to come before a body.
Mr. Wirin. I didn't expect that I would be insulted or my client
would be insulted by being called a liar.
Mr. Velde. Regular order. I move that he be escorted out.
(Whereui)on, Mr. Wirin was escorted from the room by the mar-
shal.)
Mr. Porter. In view of the interference with counsel of this witness
and removal of associate counsel, Mr. A. L. Wirin, I feel that it is im-
possible for this witness to be accorded her constitutional right of
counsel before this committee, as the conduct of this committee has
demonstrated. And, as one of counsel, I feel compelled now to with-
draw upon the grounds that I cannot, under the circumstances, dis-
charge my duty to my client whom 1 am sworn to represent here to-
day.
(W^hereupon, Counsel Porter stepped down from the witness stand.)
Mr. SniERER. I move the witness' subpena be continued until to-
morrow morning, and she report at 9 : 30, at which time she will obtain,
new counsel.
Mr. Doyle. Tlie subpena of Mrs. Chernin will be contiiuied until
tomorrow mornintr in this room at 9 :30.
6772 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
We will expect you, Mrs. Cheriiin, to come tomorrow morning pre-
pared with counsel to proceed under the subpena.
Mrs. KusNiTZ. Mr. Chairman, May I say this
Mr. Doyle. Because I will assure you, Mrs. Chernin, that, regard-
less of what your counsel has done, either deliberately or otherwise —
and I say that advisedly — either deliberately or otherwise, what-
ever they have done will not place this committee in a position where
we are not going to hear your testimony. We are going to insist upon
getting your testimony and having you compl}" with the subpena the
same as any other witness. So if it is just
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Doyle, Yes, Mrs. Chernin.
Mrs. KusNiTz. May I protest the conduct of this committee. As
far as I am
Mr. Doyle. You have done it. In your other statement you did it.
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Doyle, I didn't interrupt you. And I think
since I am here
Mr. Doyle. No. You have heard me continue your subpena until
tomorrow morning.
Mrs. KusNiTz. I cannot be here tomorrow morning because my
subpena, the subpena that you have issued, was for the 2 days that
passed. I have made plans which I cannot cancel, and therefore I
think — and I have been subjected here to insults on the part of your
members of your committee, and I cannot return tomorrow.
Mr. Dotlb. You are ordered to be here tomorrow morning at 10
with your papers which we specified in the subpena, prepared to answer
(questions.
Mrs. KusNiTZ. I cannot be here tomorrow because of plans I have
made. I am here, complying with the subpena to be here today and
tomorrow. And I have been subjected to gross insults — and I resent
it — on the part of the congressional, so-called congressional, com-
mittee.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have the statement that you read, Mrs. Chernin ?
We would like to include it in the record.
Mrs. KusNiTz. I have to consult counsel at this point whether I
should.
Mr. Doyle. You are ordered to appear tomorrow morning at 10
with the books and records that you were subpenaed to bring.
Mr. ScHERER. Let's go a little step further on this.
Do you have that or does your counsel have that statement ?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. No. I have it. It is mine.
Mr. DoYLE. Do you have the statement you read ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. . It is not a statement. They are notes that I
compiled.
Mr. ScHERER. You compiled them yourself? You wrote those
notes ?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. That is right. And I resent your
Mr. ScHERER. You wrote them ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. Your insulting remarks, for a Congressman. You
certainly aren't acting correctly.
Mr. DoYi^. Call the next witness.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will
be Mr. Jerome Land. Kindlv come forward.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6773
Mr. Doyle, Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Land. I do.
Mr. DoYLB. Please have a chair.
TESTIMONY OF JEROME LAND
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation,
Mr, Chairman, may we have order ? There is considerable talking
in the hearing room. It is difficult to hear the witness.
Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occupation.
Mr. Land, My name is Jerome Land, L-a-n-d. I am in the auto-
mobile business in California, And I don't believe I should state
my home address, I believe the committee already has it, and it
would serve no purpose before this committee,
Mr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question,
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Land. Congressman — Chairman Doyle, I am not doing this
facetiously or in order just to cause a delay of time.
I think I have a valid reason for not wanting to state my home
address because, first of all — and it is valid — I think the committee
has my address, and it has so stated to me. 1 think the only purpose,
if 1 may mention my other reason
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Land. I am going to interrupt you.
You are entirely privileged, and we thank God you are — under the
United States Constitution which gives that right to a person who
believes he will be incriminated. He can make that plea in good faith,
and he is entitled to plead it.
Mr. Land. That is what I am trying to do.
Mr. Doyle, Go ahead and plead your constitutional privilege if
you believe you should. But I have instructed you to answer the
question.
Mr. Land. I believe I should invoke my constitutional rights. I
believe the purpose of the question is just to harass myself
Mr. DoYi.E. No, no.
Mr. Land. liy publishing my address in the newspapers just as
they were yesterday when many innocently gave their address. This
committee knows my address. That could be the only reason, and
I will invoke my constitutional privileges; namely
Mr. Doyle. It is for the purpose of identifying who you are.
Mr. Land. I stated a\1io I am. I am Jerome Land. I have stated
that.
Mr. Doyle, (to ahead and complete your constitutional grounds.
Mr. Land. I invoke the first and fiftli amendments in not answering
that question. I think it is an invasion of my rights.
Mr. Arens. Is tlie record clear he has been ordered and directed
to answer that question ?
Mr. ScHEKER. He has invoked the first and fifth amendments,
Mr. Arens. You are appearing in response to a subpena which was
served ui)on you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Land. That is correct.
85333— 57— pt. 1 41
6774 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SITE VERSION
Mr. Arens. You yourself are a lawyer ; are you not ?
Mr. Land. I am not practicing at the present time.
Mr. Akens. You are an attorney, however ?
Mr. Land. That is right.
Mr. Arens. You have been trained in the law ?
Mr. Land. That is correct. And I may state I appear without
counsel at this hearing, having been deprived of the right of counsel
in contradiction to the rules of this committee.
Mr. iVRENS. You were deprived of counsel ?
Mr. Land. Yes, sir. In my opinion, sir, I have been deprived of the
right of counsel because, as one lawyer who sought the services of
another lawyer, after attacks upon lawyers here, both by virtue of the
word attacks and physical attack here, if you please, 1 feel I cannot
jeopardize another lawyer's welfare by asking him to appear.
Mr. Arens. Do you know any lawyer who has been attacked by this
connnittee or identified before this committee who is not a member
of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Land. I don't understand that question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know any pei-son who has been identified as a
Communist before this committee Avho is not a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Land. Well, I will simplify it by just declining to answer it
under the first and iif th amendments, sir.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask this question, please.
Mr. Land, are you the man who was ejected from the room for
disturbance — are you the one?
Mr. Land. I am the man, sir, who was ejected from the room for
asking you a question. Sir, as a lawyer I asked you a simple ques-
tion and
Mr. Doyle. No, no. Are you the man that the marshal ejected just
before we adjourned this noon ?
Mr. Land. No, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I beg your pardon.
Mr. Land. I was just ejected, sir — unless you have me confused — I
was just ejected for addressing a question to this Chair. I was the
man that held that dying man in my arms
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Land. You have interrupted me.
Mr. Arens. I am sorry.
Mr. Doyle. You have answered my question. That is sufficient.
I apologize for asking you.
Mr. Land. There is no apology necessary.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Land. I was talking to the chairman of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. I am through talking with you. You have answered
my question.
^fr. Arens. Keep on talking and tell us whether or not you are a
member of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Land. May I exj^lain why I interrupted you before ?
Mr. Doyle. No ; it is not necessary.
Mr. Land. I think that might be construed as a discourtesy.
Mr. Doyle. You needn't try to make a record here of that sort.
Pleise pay attention to the counsel.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us, please, sir, are you a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
COIVIMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6775
Mr. Land. I will decline to answer that, sir, under the first amend-
ment which gives me the right of freedom of thought, still, in this
country. And under the fifth amendment of the United States Con-
stitution.
Mr. Arens. Now tell us, if you please, where did you live prior to
the time that you came to California ?
Mr. Land. I will decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds I have
already previously stated.
Mr. Arens. We have this document :
Ohio Marches Toward Peace and Progress. The 1937 yearbook of
the Ohio Communist Party.
Mr. Land. What year was tliat, sir ?
Mr. Arens. 1937. Does that refresh your recollection ?
Mr. Land. We are getting along in years, aren't we.
Mr. Arens. Does that refresh your recollection ^
Mr. Land. I do remember there was such a year, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember the document, Ohio Marches Toward
Peace and Progress, in 1937 ?
Mr. Land. Ohio might have done that, sir. But I don't think I
will answer that question.
Mr. Arens. We lay before you a document of the Communist Party
naming you as one of tlie comrades in the Ohio peace and progress
movement of the Communist Party.
Mr. Land. May I look at it, sir?
Mr. Arens. Certainly. Do so.
(Document marked "P^xhibit No. 518," see appendix, pp. 8021-
8024.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Land. That is, I believe, 19 years ago. Isn't it, sir? I am
sorry I don't see to what you are referring, sir.
Mr. Arens. See your name ? See if your name doesn't appear in
that document there.
Mr. Appell, would you point it out to him.
Mr. Land. May I have the previous question ? That is the one you
asked me to answer.
Mr. Arens. Just a moment. We don't want to be discourteous to
you.
Mr. Appell, would you kindly point to his name in that document
and see if that refreshes his recollection with reference to peace and
progress movement of the Communist Party, in Ohio in 1937.
Look and tell us if that is your name and if you are truly and cor-
rectly represented there as Jerome Land.
Mr. Land. I would like to understand the question.
If I am truly represented here as Jerome Land ?
Mr. Arens. Look in there and see if that is you.
Mr. Land. Well, I would be unable to answer the question under
any circumstances, that type of question. I couldn't answer it if I
wanted to.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest the witness be ordered and
directed now, at his peril, to answer that question.
Mr. DoYEE. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Land, T don't understand the question. I am trying to exi)lain
my answer. If you don't want my answer — I thought you wanted
6776 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
my answer. If you don't I will simply say I decline tx) answer under
the first and fifth amendments.
I didn't understand the question, but I will say I don't
Mr. Arens. We don't want you to invoke the fifth amendment un-
less you feel a truthful answer to the question would give informa-
tion which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding.
As an attorney, will you kindly tell us whether or not you are the
Jerome Land whose name appears on the page of this document which
we have just alluded to, which Mr. Appell of this staff has shown to
Mr. Land. This document, which you say, I believe, sir, is 19 yeare
old — and you ask me if I am on this document. I am unable to answer,
sir, and I decline to answer under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. No. Our staff member has pointed out your name on
that document which you now hold in your hand.
Mr. Land. Sir, this is a printed name. How could I know that ?
Mr. Doyle. What is it ?
Mr. Land. My name or another similar name might be printed any-
where, sir.
Mr. Arens. Then deny it while you are under oath.
Mr. Land. I wouldn't in some places here, but here I believe I will
say I will reserve my rights under the first and fifth amendments to
the United States Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Let's get the record clear on that point. You recognize,
first of all. No. 1, that you are under oath ; do you not ?
Mr. Land. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You recognize. No. 2, if you lie to this committee while
under oath you can be prosecuted for perjury ; do you not ?
Mr. Land. I don't lie here or under oath or not under oath.
Mr. Arens. You don't? Are you a member of a conspiracy that
is based on deceit and lies, perversion of the truth ?
Tell us about that while you are under oath.
Mr. Land. I will decline to answer, sir, under the amendments al-
ready asserted.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell is going to display to you a document from
the Communist Daily Worker. It tells about the mounting protests
against a Cleveland paper printing Communist Party petition signers.
One Jerome Land appears in here as one of the voices that is pro-
testing the so-called blacklisting of the Communist nominating peti-
tions.
Look at this article in the Communist Daily Worker, August 30,
1940, and see if that refreshes your recollection.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 519," see appendix, pp. 8025,
8026.)
Mr. Land. Do you have a date on that, sir ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. He will lay the whole document before you.
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Land. August 30, 1940.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, while he is looking at the document may
I say, for the purpose of clarity in this record, the reason why this
particular witness is called here is that, as you know, this committee
has held hearings in a number of States and expects to continue this
series of hearings. One of the States in which we heard witnesses was
the State of Ohio. And most of the testimony of this witness will be
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6777
Tpith reference to activities in Ohio. But lie is now living in Los
Angeles.
Mr. Doyle. For Mr. Land's information, that hearing in Ohio was
within the last 10 days.
Mr. Arens. That is correct ; yes, sir.
His name was one of the subjects of that hearing. He was
identified.
Mr. Land. Thank you for that information, sir. I didn't know
about that. I M'ould not be able to answer an article this old, sir,
truthfully under any circumstances.
Mr. Arens. We certainly wouldn't want you to tax your memory
or speculate in any sense
Mr. Land. That is 1940, sir.
Mr. Arens. We have one here a little more recent. See if you can
help us on this. It is the Communist Daily Worker of February 18,
1941 . That is just a little more recent.
This article says you were spokesman for the Ohio Committee
for the Defense of Civil Eights. You were active in a lot of things out
in Ohio.
Committee spokesman, attorney Jerome Land and others did certain
things, etc.
Kindly look at this clipping from the Communist Daily Worker
in 1941 and see if tliat refreshes your recollection with reference
to any activities of yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 520," see appendix, p. 8027.)
Mr. Land. Sir, may I save this committee's time? I think the com-
mittee appreciates having its time saved.
Ill order not to ])ut on a performance, I would like to say, sir, that
I don't believe I could answer articles this old. But if I could, sir, in
all frankness and candor, I would not answer these articles under the
first and fifth amendments,
]Mr. SciiEREK. I think, Mr. Counsel, you should ask him whether or
not, independently of the article, he has any recollection of his activi-
ties of that time, activities to which the article refers.
Mr. Arens. In view of your difficulty in remembering Communist
activities, do you have any recollection independently of these docu-
ments, of the incidents alluded to in the documents ?
I certainly don't want to tax your memory.
Mr. Land. I appreciate that, sir. I am sure you want to be as
courteous to us.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Land, where did you go to law school and to
college ?
Mr. Land. Cleveland Law School.
Mr. Velde. Cleveland Law School. That is in the State of my
good colleague from Ohio, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Land. I didn't know Mr. Scherer in Ohio, as I recall.
Mr. Velde. When and where did you pass the bar in California?
Mr. Land. I don't practice in California, sir.
Mr. Velde. You practiced in Ohio ?
Mr. Land. That is right.
Mr. Velde. "Wlien did you pass the bar in Ohio ?
Mr. Land. In, I think, it was 1935, sir.
6778 coMMTnsnsT political subversion
Mr. Velde. 1935. "Was that just after you graduated from law
school ?
Mr. Land. Immediately thereafter ; yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Is that Western Keserve University ? I don't know
of any Cleveland Law School.
Mr. Land. I think it was considered a branch of John Marshall,
but I am not sure. Not Western Reserve.
Mr. Velde. Were you a Communist at the time you were in law
school ?
Mr. Land. It was a law school in which
Mr. ScHERER. I just didn't remember a Cleveland Law School.
Mr. Land. Most of the sessions were at night.
Mr. Velde. Were you a Communist at the time you were in law
school ?
Mr. Land. I think I should decline to answer that, sir, under the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Velde. I think you should, too.
Mr. Arens. We have a document with a more recent date. We
are getting closer to the present. Perhaps your recollection will be
a little sharper.
November 2, 1949. The Communist Daily Worker tells us in this
article about a number of people who protest the contempt convictions
of these Communist lawyers who defended the 11 traitors in New York
City, including you, among the protestors of this action.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 521," see appendix, p. 8027.)
Mr. Land. I will decline to answer that, sir, under the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Oh, your recollection is getting a little better?
Mr. Land. I didn't say so. You said so, sir. If you would like
to testify for me, please feel free to do so.
Mr. Arens. Independently of this article in the Communist Daily
Worker, were you one of several who protested the contempt con-
victions of the lawyers in New York City who defended the 11 Com-
munist traitors and whose conduct approximated the conduct of the
lawyers who have appeared before this committee in the last 2 days?
Mr. Land. Would you — What is the question?
You see, sir, it is a little difficult, me being used more to a court of
law, to have hypotheses assumed in my question which are involved
in the answering, things not before the body.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to answer that question now ?
Mr. Land. I don't think I know how, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you sign the petition protesting the trial, protest-
ing the contempt conviction of the Communist lawyers in New York
City who defended the 11 Communist traitors ?
Mr. Land. Did I sign a petition ? I will decline to answer that, sir,
under the fii'st and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document. It is the Com-
munist Daily Worker — 1952 — in which 45 United States lawyers ask
civil trial for Greek, quote "unionists." These are petitions to the
Premier of Greece with reference to a military courtmartial of a
number of Communist conspirators in Greece.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6779
It is signed liere by a number of lawyers, 45 United States lawyers,
asking the Greek Government, here, to give these Communists a civilian
trial instead of a military trial. Included in the signers of these pe-
titions is one Jerome Land.
Look at that document and see if that helps refresh your recollection.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 522," see appendix, p. 8027.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Land. You again mention my recollection, sir.
I think counsel's recollection is a little dim if he doesn't recall that
I stated my ])osition, that I refused to answer under the first and fifth
amendments on these questions, sir.
Mr, Arens. Did you sign the petition to the Premier of Greece
for this civil trial for these Communists in Greece?
Mr. Land. If I were before any other gathering, sir, I would say it
was impossible for me to
Mr. Arens. You mean if you were released from your oath where
you could not be prosecuted for perjury?
Mr. Land. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not you did sign that
petition directed to the Premier of Greece.
Mr. Land. Sir, some of us don't need an oath to tell the truth.
Some of us tell the truth by nature. And perhaps you will have a
difference of opinion, but that is how I am, sir. And I say before
another body that didn't intend merely to persecute but to really
want evidence — as I think, Mr. Chairman, 3'ou were sincere before in
asking some questions that you would like some witnesses to help you.
By golly, I would be one that wouid like to help if it was a sincere
inquiry.
Since I don't think that is the intention, I am simply going to say
I will decline under the first and fifth amendments to you, sir.
Mr. Velde. If you were offered immunity from any prosecution
"would you answer the questions being put to you by counsel ?
Mr. Land. That is a fair question.
May I answer to that question without having Mr. Scherer or
someone say that if I answer this question I will immediately have
to answer another one or, therefore, be cited ?
Mr. Velde. I didn't get your answer.
Mr. Land. May I answer your question in good faith without being
threatened immediately thereafter that, unless I answer ensuing ques-
tions, I will be cited ?
Mr, Velde. Certainly you may.
Mr. Land. Then I would say, sir, that if the questions were asked
in good faith — as I may say I think Congressman Doyle did ask
of some witnesses in these hearings — just to get information on our
views, sincerely for that purpose, there would be any number of us
that would be willing to cooperate. But I will say frankly that I
don't think that is the intent of the committee here.
Mr. Velde. That is exactly what this committee wants and has
wanted ever since it was established — information concerninfij Com-
mimists and subversive activities so it can legislate, Mr. Land.
6780 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
You might be sincere about this, and I am trying to find out
whether you are or not, if you were offered immunity, whether you
would testify.
Mr, Land. If it was possible to offer me such immunity I would,
sir. But could you guarantee to me, CongTessman, that I would not
appear in newspapers, that my family might not be harassed ?
Mr. Velde. I think you know I can't guarantee you, this subcom-
mittee can't guarantee it.
]Mr. Land. Of course you can't.
The whole nature of the proceeding is that people have an incidental
death by slander in appearing here.
If it was possible to give me that kind of immunity I would be
happy to give you information, if it didn't mean crucifying people
like these lawyers have to have the next day, to have their practices
crucified because they appeared in such circumstances in the news-
papers.
Mr. ScHERER. They have been doing the same thing for 4 or 5 years,
and it hasn't affected their practice. It has helped their practice with
the Commies.
Mr. Land. I am trying to answer j'our question, sir.
Mr, Velde. This witness might be impressed with the purposes of
this committee.
Mr. Land. You weren't here yesterday, sir, when some of the wit-
nesses offered to send information to Chairman Doyle if such informa-
tion was elicited in good faith for the benefit of effecting legislation.
Mr. Arens. You know what the committee is here for. The com-
mittee is trying to rout out communism, find out what the Communists
are doing, identify Communists.
Mr. Land. I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. Communists are subversive. You know that.
Mr. Land. I misunderstood.
Mr. Arens. Now, with your adherence and your dedication to the
truth that you have so vigorously protested here today, I want to ask
you if you can be helpful on this question.
On April 10, 1942 did you take an examination before the United
States Civil Service Commission in Cleveland for a job? Do you
recall that?
Mr. Land. It seems to me like a harmless activity, I am just think-
ing, sir. But, in view of what has preceded me here today, 1 will have
to answer under the first and fifth amendments, and decline.
Mr. Arens. Didn't you, when you made application, come to this
question :
Are you now or have you been a member of any organization that contemplates
the overthrow of the Constitutional form of government in the United States
by force?
Do you have a recollection of that now ? Tax your memory the best
you can now and give us a truthful answer.
Mr, Land, I wish I could answer you, sir. You have made it im-
possible, I must decline.
Mr. Arens. I wish you would.
Mr. Land. Had you proceeded differently I would have been happy
to give you an answer. I fear now, under the fifth amendment, I
might be in jeopardy.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6781
Mr. Arens. "Wliat do you mean you might be? You are a lawyer.
Let's get the record clear.
Do you mean if you answered that question truthfully you would
be giving information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?
Mr. Land. I will answer that question by saying that to any of your
questions
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Land. I started to.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you answer the question
as to whether or not you signed a civil-service form in Cleveland,
Ohio, in April 1942, you would be giving information that could be
used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Land. I think your vindictiveness is such that if it was possible
for you to do it by any device of the imagination, of yours or a stool
pigeon, you would do so, sir. Therefore, I fear to answer under the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. DoTLE. I instruct you to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. He couldn't be prosecuted for perjury. The statute
of limitations for Ohio is 3 years. 1942, is that? He couldn't possibly
be prosecuted.
Mr. Arens. I want to commend you for your truthfulness back in
April of 1942 because you stated, did you not, on your form :
I am connected with the Communist Party but do not believe it such an organ-
ization as above described.
I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny the fact that
you signed that statement in April 1942, at Cleveland in Ohio, in
applying for a civil-service examination.
Mr. Land. I will decline to answer under the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you a transcript of a speech you
made out in Ohio before the Ohio Conference for the Protection of
Foreign Born, in which you were introducing a Mrs. Taylor.
Kindly lOok at this publication, which has come to the custody and
control of this committee in a legitimate and lawful manner, and tell
us whether or not you will verify the authenticity of that document.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 523," see appendix, pp. 8028-
8031.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Land. Under any circumstances it wouldn't be possible, sir.
I don't see my name anywhere in here. However, I will decline
to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Look at it and tell the committee whether or not you
made those remarks. If you don't remember say, "I don't remember."
If you do remember, tell us truthfully in your adherence to the truth.
Mr. Land. It just wouldn't be safe to answer it either way. I will
decline to answer under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
6782 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. Any questions ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no questions.
Mr. DoYLE. I just want to say this to you, Mr. Land:
As a member of the California bar it always makes me shiver when
thejfe is ever any evidence presented as to a member of the bar being,
or having been a member of the Communist Party and the member
of the bar refuses to come clean and make it clear that he has never
been a member of the Communist Party, or isn't.
Ml. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I don't believe our records reflect that
question on this particular witness. Therefore, I should like to sug-
gest it be posed to him.
IMr. DoYLE. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Land. Before answering I will just preface it by saying I
recall Congressman Velde's interrogation of me before, which I think
was a sincere one, about the possibility of giving information if the
committee was sincerely interested.
Your present question, sir, makes me again feel that that is im-
possible, and I will just resort to the first and fifth amendments and
decline to answer, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. You realize that our assignment under
Public Law COl is, among other things, to ascertain the extent to
which Communists are undertaking to defeat the antisubversive sec-
tions of the present existing Federal statutes.
Is there anything else from this witness ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I do want to say this, that the respon-
sibility for obtaining immunity should be on you [addressing witness],
and if you are really sincere in wanting to testify with a grant of
immunity by a Federal court, I am sure the committee would be very
happy to consider the proposition in executive session.
So, if you are favorable to giving testimony, I do hope that you
will
Mr. Land. Sir, I will sav in
Mr. Velde, Contact the counsel or the chairman of the full com-
mittee.
Mr. Land. Sir, I will say respectfully to you — you who address
your questions to me respectfully, and I recognize it — that I honestly
feel and sincerely hope the day will come in American civil liberties
vhere that would be possible, sir; where it might be that people that
have a difference of opinion, such as I fancy you and I have, might get
together and decently, constitutionally discuss their differences of
opinion with an effort toward better legislation for all good Americans.
I frankly feel, as candidly as I say that and mean it, sir, I think
under the preseiit atmosphere you are not making that possible for us.
Mr. Vei>de. You are familiar with the immunity law that was
passed?
Mr. Land. I have been out of the practice for 3 years. I am not too
sure just how mucli immunity can be granted.
Mr. Velde. Under the law of the United States you can apply to the
committee, and the committee can, by vote, ask a Federal judge of the
district to grant immunity from any prosecution.
Mr. Land. You can't grant us innnunity from cameras, moving pic-
tures, telephone calls to our home, sir. And as long as that is the
atmosphere
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6783
Mr. Velde. I don't tliink you are sincere in that request. I am
going to give it up.
Mr. Doyle. You have alluded twice to the fact that this morning I,
you thought, had sincerely asked witnesses who had been identified as
Communists before this committee or before the Subversive Activities
Control Board in Washington if they would state their objections
to any of the antisubversive provisions of any of the major antisub-
versive laws now on our statutes. And I think I invited two of them
who had been identified as Communists to send those on to us because
we wanted them, but to do it over their own signature, of course, and
not through some false Communist front or subversive front.
Now I will ask you. And I assure it is not to trap you. But you
are an experienced lawyer. And, as you said, you haven't practiced
for 3 years. That is not very long to have been out of the practice.
So your mind is good and sharp, w^ell-trained to be explicit.
What recommendations have you to make to this committee in
the field of consideration of antisubversive sections of any of the
existing Federal statutes?
Now I think that is a fair question. We are really seeking help
from that on people who have been identified as Communists. Not to
trap them but to try to get them to help us in that field. Not because
we differ on other provisions of the law, but, even though we differ on
antisuln-ersive statutes, have you any suggestion for us that we can
take back to Washington ?
Mr. Land. That is a fair question, sir. But I am sure that my opin-
ion extemporaneously at this moment could not possibly be regarded
seriously. So I don't think this is the place for me to give my opinion
on a law that perhaps I haven't looked at for some years.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, apparently you have been speaking about it
within recent years.
Mr. Land. I am not sure. I thought the last document was about
1941. I may be wrong.
Mr. Doyle. It was brought down to date, to 1952 or 1953, and that
is fairly recent.
So I take it you wouldn't speak in public against legislation unless
you had considered it.
That isn't very long ago, 2 or 3 years. You considered it then.
Your memory should be sharp enough now. And I am asking in good
faith to see if I can get your help.
Mr. Land. Good faith, sir?
If there are such statements that I have made in the past, if in fact
they exist I would think that they would be available to the House if
they have any respect for my opinion, if they have my opinion.
Mr. Doyle. Again I find it absolutely impossible to get the coopera-
tion of anyone who has been identified before this committee or some
governmental agency as a Communist. I have always failed to get
their help or any suggestion
Mr. Land. May I suggest another method, sir ?
Mr. Doyle. Of improvement or change in any of the anti-Com-
munist provisions.
Mr. Land. May I suggest a method of getting that help, sir?
Mr. Doyle. This is one method we have.
6784 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Land. Do it without trying to vilify us, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I haven't tried to vilify you. And again you have also
refused.
Mr. Arens. Vilify whom, please ?
Mr. Land. Vilify me, sir.
Mr. Arens. How about the Communists? Do you think that they
deserve commendation and laudation by a congressional committee
for their actions ?
Mr. Land. The question was, sir, how do we get help on legislation ?
And you are back at the same old stand.
Mr. DoYiiE. You are excused.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, will be Esther
Shandler, S-h-a-n-d-1-e-r.
Mr. Doyle. Miss Shandler, may we ask that we not call you for
5 minutes ?
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent: Representatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle, Velde, and
Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order. And let the
record show that all three members of the subcommittee are present.
I think, Madam Counsel, I have forgotten whether or not I ever
had your witness take the oath.
Mrs. Rosenberg. No.
Mr. Arens. We haven't started yet, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Then will the witness please rise.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Shandler. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS ESTHER SHANDLER, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ROSE S. ROSENBERG
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Miss Shandler. My name is Esther Shandler. I am an attorney
at law with offices at 208 West Eighth Street, Los Angeles 14.
Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to make a motion to quash
my subpena on the grounds that there is a congressional subcommittee
on immigration which has authority to elicit testimony in the field of
immigration and naturalization, and they are the proper subcommittee
to make legislation in this field.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, madam, please.
You know this is not a court of law, and this committee has the
jurisdiction to cover the subject we are covering.
Perhaps there is another congressional committee that also has
authority to go into the field of immigration and naturalization.
That is something we are not going into.
We are only in the field of the antisubversive features of these four
major Federal statutes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6785
So please don't take the time of yourself and others to make a motion
because it is without any result in the premises because we are not a
court of law, and I will not even consider it.
Miss SiiANDLEK. I kuow, Mr. Chairman, that you do have the
authority — that is, the committee does — to quash subpenas. And, as
Mr. Arens mentioned this morning-, the avowed purpose of this hear-
ing was to investigate persons who attempt to influence public
opinion on legislation.
Mr. Arens. A little correction there.
Miss Shandler. Just a moment.
Mr. Arexs. Let's get the record straight.
I would substitute the word Communists for persons, and then go
ahead.
Miss SnANDLER. I would like to sa}' in that connection, Mr. Chair-
man, that such investigation is contrarj' to the guarantees of the
first amendment, both not only
Mr. Doyle. Wait.
Miss Shaxdler. May I finish^ Just a few" more words.
Mr. Ddyle. No. You are anticipating what questions may be
asked you. Let's wait until you are asked questions so that you
don't make a forum out of this, please. Let's go ahead in an orderly-
manner.
Miss Shandler. I am really not ])lanning
Mr. Doyle. I realize 3"ou have a written statement there that you
are reading, but let's wait until counsel asks you a question, and then
give your answer, please.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Miss SiiANDiiER. I stipulate that I am the person named in the
subpena that was served upon me.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Miss Shandler. I am represented by most eminent counsel. Her
name is Rose S. Rosenberg.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, do you care to add any identification of your-
self?
Mrs. Rosenberg. I think I have appeared before. The record is
cleai" as to my name.
Mr. Arens. Miss Shandler, are you now a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Miss Shandler. Mr. Arens, in the United States a person has
the right, under the first amendment, to belong to whatever organiza-
tion they wish, to meet with whatever people they wish. And they
do not have to account to this committee or, as a matter of fact, to
anybody involuntarily. And for that reason, under the gi'ounds of
the first amendment and also on the fifth amendment, I refuse to
ansA\'er your question.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you for being brief and definite.
Mr. Arens. Mr. "VS^ieeler is going to display to you. Miss Shandler,
a copy of the Communist Daily People's World, December 9, 1953,
with reference to a delegation from Los Angeles to a Chicago meeting*
a delegation of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born going to Chicago for a national conference to repeal the Walter-
McCarran law.
6786 coMMxnsriST political subversion
This dele<]jation includes attorney Esther Shandler of the commit-
tee's lefjal panel. That is the Los Angeles committee's legal panel.
Kindly look at that article in the document and tell this committee
whether or not you are accurately designated as the legal chairman
of the legal panel of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 456, appendix, p. 7890.)
(The witness examines document.)
Miss Spiandler. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have you request
counsel to withdraw that question.
It most obviously invades the field of the attorney-client relation-
ship. And I think counsel knows that the policy of the law is to
encourage clients to confer with their attorneys and for the attorneys
to keep their confidences inviolate.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Miss Shandler. Well, my answer, Mr. Chairman, is that I refuse
to answer that question on the basis of the attorney-client privilege,
and also on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss Shandler or Mrs. ?
Miss Shandler. It is Miss.
Mr. Arens. Miss Shandler, Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you
a photostatic copy of a check of the Los Angeles Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, payable to yourself, Esther Shandler, for
$250, which bears your endorsement.
Look at that photostatic copy of this check and tell the committee
whether or not you would be good enough to verify the authenticity of
your signature there.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 524," see appendix, p. 8032.)
Miss Shandler. Counsel, may I ask where you obtained this photo-
static copy of the check ?
Mr. Arens. It came into the custody of the committee in proper
course, ma'am. Kindly answer the question.
Miss Shandler. Could you explain to me what the proper coui'se
was?
Mr. Arens. Just answer the question, please, ma'am. Mr. Chair-
man, I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and directed to
answer the question.
Miss Shandler. Well, Mr. Chairman, I feel that this check is
illegally obtained evidence. I believe it was stolen.
Mr. Arens. How do you know it is illegally obtained evidence?
Miss Shandler. I can't imagine how you would get a photostatic
copy of a check that was made out to me. Theoretically.
Mr. Arens. Then deny that it is made out to you while you are
under oath.
Miss Shandler. I am not answering that it was made out to me or
that it was not made out to me.
Mr. Arens. Let's get that settled.
Is it made out to you? Then we will get into the question of
whether we stole it, found it, or made it up.
Tell this committee whether or not that is your signature on that
check.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6787
Mr. ScHERER, She already said it was. She couldn't understand
how we stole a check from her.
Miss Shandler. I would like the chairman to determine how the
committee came into possession of this check.
Mr. Doyle. We don't have to reveal — you know that — how we get
evidence. That is a document with which you are apparently familiar.
Mr. Scherer. Apparently. She said she doesn't know how we got
her check.
Mrs. Rosenberg. To correct the statement, she said that is for de-
termination of
Mr. Doyle. It speaks for itself. What is your answer ? We don't
have to tell you how we prove what people are doing.
Miss Shandler. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that the document placed before me, I can only assume, is illegally
obtained evidence, and, further, on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments. And I would like to add the further ground that
question of counsel because it invades the client-attorney relationship?
Mr. Scherer. What was that? Invades the attorney-client rela-
tionship ? Wait a minute. What do you mean by invading the attor-
ney-client relationship with respect to that last question?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Shandler. I think that I have given my answer, and the
record shows it.
Mr. Scherer. Answer it again. I didn't hear it.
What do you mean when you say you refuse to answer that last
question of counsel because it invades the client-attorney relationship?
Miss Shandler. That was an additional ground, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I understand. But you advanced it as a ground.
Why do you use that? I can't see that there is any question of
attorney-client relationship involved in this question that Mr. Arens
asked you about the check.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Your attorney didn't have anything to do with that
check.
Miss Shandler. I am an attorney, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. You are an attorney ?
Miss Shandler. And any matter that involves me as an attorney,
I am compelled by law and by ethics not to reveal to you, to any
member of this committee or to anybody else.
Mr. Scherer. It may not necessarily be true.
Jjet me get this straight. To whom is this check made payable?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Were you the attorney for the Los Angeles Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Miss Shandler. I might say, Mr. Scherer, that under the California
law a lawyer is enjoined by statute ever to reject a cause of the de-
fenseless and the oppressed. And I might say, in my opinion, the for-
eign born in this country represent one of the most oppressed groups
under tlie Walter-McCarran law. I have, as a lawyer, the duty (o
re])resent all people who come to me.
Mr. Scherer, I understand that.
Miss Shandler. And I have the duty, further, to keep the con-
fidences of my clients inviolate.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
6788 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. We are not asking you about the confidences of your
client. We just want to know whether the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born came to you, and whether you repre-
sented them as an attorney. That is as simple as that.
Miss Shandler. It may appear simple to you. To me that ques-
tion falls within the realm of privileged communication.
Mr. ScHERER. Whether you were attorney for this falls within the
question of privilege ?
Miss Shandler. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. That may be the California law, but it is the first
State I have heard of that that is the law.
Mr. Arens. It obviously isn't the law, Mr. Chairman. It is only
a pretense here. Because we haven't asked her any confidential com-
munication.
Mr. Scherer. I know. I say we haven't asked her that.
Mr. Arens. Miss Shandler, Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you,
in the interest of expediting the proceedings today, several exhibits
of a conference under the auspices of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born, some of which identify you as chairman
of various panels, and others identify you as part of the legal panel of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 102a and 102d, appendix, pp. 7273 and 7276.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Kindly look at those documents and see if you would
be good enough to help this committee of the Congress by verifying
their authenticity.
Mr. Scherer. Then she w^as not only the lawyer but she was chair-
man of some of the committees.
Mr. Arens. Yes. That appears in the exhibits.
Mr. Scherer. Then how can she claim any privilege?
Mr. Arens. I am just pressing here for time or I would elaborate
on each particular exhibit. We have at least a half dozen we are
laying before her now.
(The witness examines documents.)
Mr. Scherer. Lawyers advancing these silly answers.
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Miss Shandler. In answer to your question, Mr. Arens, I might
point out that — pardon me a moment.
(The witness further examines documents and confers wnth her
counsel.)
Miss Shandler. Mr. Arens, it is apparent that these documents refer
to confidential relationships that may exist between an attorney and
client, and I would therefore refuse to answer the question on that
ground
Mr. Arens. On that gi'ound solely, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully
suggest this witness be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Kosenberg. May the witness be permitted to finish the answer?
Mr. Arens. We want to be sure that this record is clear.
Mr. Scherer. IIow does she claim privilege when she doesn't admit
she is attorney for them ?
Mr. Doyle. Let's finish the discussion. Have you finished answer-
ing the question ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6789
Miss Shandler. No I haven't. Rule 8 of your rules provide that
counsel for a witness shall conduct himself in a professional, ethical,
and proper maimer. It seems to me that the counsel for the committee
should adhere to this rule also. Ajid 1 would like you to direct your
counsel to adhere to this I'ule.
The balance of my answer
Mr. Velde. I want the record to reflect that I feel, as a member of
this committee, our counsel for the committee has acted entirely proper
all throuohout these proceedinjjs in good faith with the committee
rules, and that, on the other hand, the witness, who is a lawyer herself,
has not acted as a reputable attorney.
Mrs. Rosenberg. May the witness be permitted to finish her answer,
please ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. May I just state this: Manifestly, some of these
witnesses have apparently planned in advance to criticize counsel of the
committee and criticize the connnittee. And that is understood. We
are used to that sort of thing, that we are all criticized.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. It is a very difficult thing we have experienced, to deal
with people that are trying to evade giving Congress any information.
It is very difficult.
JNIrs. Rosenberg. May the witness finish her answer, please ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Go ahead, IMiss Shandler.
Miss Shandler. The balance of my answer is that I refuse to answer
the question on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments, as I
did the pi-evious question.
And I might say, Mr. Doyle, that I am unfamiliar with Mr. Arens.
I have never seen him, nor even heard of him prior to this hearing. So
that I think your last statements are not appropriate.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I think they are appropriate because we cannot
allow time to make it a point to try to criticize and condemn com-
mittee counsel or the members of the committee. Go ahead. We are
trying to expedite the mattere. I am trying to give you every oppor-
tunity to give all answers you care to.
What is your next question, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. She hasn't answered the principal outstanding question.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Yes; she has. You were probably reading.
Miss Shandler. I would be happy to repeat the answer.
Mr. Arens. No; it won't be necessary. I just want to be sure the
record reflects the principal question.
Miss Shandler. Yes.
• Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Miss Shandler. Sir, is that a (Question ?
Mrs. Rosenberg. Is that a question you directed to the witness?
Mr. Arens. It certainly isn't an answer. You know it is a question.
Are you are member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Miss Shandler. I thought you were referring to the answer to the
previous question.
Mr. ScHERER. Why, no. Please let's make the effort.
Mrs. Rosenberg. I think the record will show that that question was
asked and answered, I believe.
Mr. Doyle. Not this question. Madam Coimsel.
ssss.-j— 57— pt. 1 42
6790 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
May we have the record show that — if I am mistaken I want to
know it — this witness did not answer that question previously as to
whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party. Did she?
Miss Shandler. I believe that was the first question you asked me.
Mr, Arens. So the record is absolutely clear, I now ask you, Are
you a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Miss Shandler. I previously
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Mr. Chairman, may the witness be given an op-
portunity to answer before his interruption?
Mr. Doyle. I am giving it now. Go ahead, please, Witness, and
cooperate.
Miss Shandler. I was on the verge of answering, Mr. Doyle. I
answered previously that I refused to answer that question on the
grounds of the first and fifth amendments, and I do so now again
answer it that way.
Mr. Doyle. Now we are all clear that you did previously answer
it. Thank you.
Miss Shandler. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. If you please, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Doyle. Questions, Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you, counsel.
Mr. Arens. Marva Bovingdon, B-o-v-i-n-g-d-o-n. Kindly come
forward.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Bovingdon. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MISS MARVA BOVINGDON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. MURRISH
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Miss Bovingdon. Marva Bovingdon, 2700 Budlong Avenue, Los
Angeles, Calif. Secretary. «
Mr. Arens, Where are you employed, please?
Miss Bovingdon. I answer that under protest. This is a matter of
discrimination. It is putting me in jeopardy of losing my job. It is
a very unfair question to ask me, I am making my living fairly and
squarely.
Mr. Arens, You haven't a thing to worry about. Just tell this
committee where you work now, please.
Miss Bovingdon. This committee is entering the field of blacklist-
ing. To ask a hiyman, a person who is working for a living, trying to
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6791
get along as a citizen of the United States, where he works, under
these conditions, is unconstitutional. I protest the answering of that
question although I will answer it.
Mr. Arens. Then go ahead and answer, please.
Miss BoviNGDON. The Brown Pharmaceutical Co.
Mr. Arens. And where is that located, please ?
Miss BoviNGDON. Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Miss BoviNGDON. That is obvious.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. And you are represented by counsel ?
Miss BoviNGDON. That is obvious.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself, please, sir.
Mr. MuRRisii. William B. Murrish, attorney.
Mr. Arens. Do you care to give any further identification as to the
place where you practice ?
Mr. Murrish. Attorney, Los Angeles bar. I have appeared before.
I identified myself before.
Mr. Arens. Is it Mrs. or Miss Bovingdon ?
Miss BoviNGDON. Miss.
Mr. Arens. Miss Bovingdon, do you know a person by the name of
Anita Schneider?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss BoviNGDON. Congressman Doyle of Los Angeles, this woman
has appeared before this committee. She has given you informa-
tion
Mr. Arens. Just a moment. You are reading from something?
Miss BoviNGDON. I am not reading from anything except my own
personal notes. You seem to have a great pile in front of you. There
are six men here who are all attorneys. I come with a few scattered
notes and I want the permission to use them, if I may.
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead. We want the record clear what you
are doing.
Mr. Doyle. Go right ahead.
Miss BoviNGDON. To answer this question Avould certainly require
me to enter an area which might connect me with a number of things,
I don't know what. But I am certainly going to decline to answer
this latter, this question, and I have some definite constitutional
grounds which I want to state for this committee.
Mr. Arens. By the way, Mrs. Schneider said in her testimony
this morning tliat the Communists rehearsed their testimony. Did
you rehearse this and compile your notes? Or is this extempo-
raneous ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss BoviNGDON. This is a point 1 want to make: as long as you
ask me a question let me finish answering this question before you
give me another question. That seems fair.
Mr. Arens. Surely it is fair. I didn't mean to intrude more
than
Miss BoviNGDON. I saw the resolution of tliis committee.
Mr. Arens. I didn't mean to intrude upon your recitation.
6792 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
IVIiss BoviNGDON. The autliorizing resolution upon wliicli tliis
committee is established. I looked at it very carefully and tried
to make sense out of it. It says something about unconstitutional
propaganda which is un-American. This to me is so vague that it
puts a censorship on the Constitution. It stands as a block between
me and my Constitution and my activities. Aiid this brings me to
this next point :
Why I feel and want to put in the record the legal grounds for
my standing on my answer to this question.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember noAv which question you are answer-
ing? The question is: Did Mrs. Sclineider tell the truth when she
identified you as a Communist.
Miss BoviNGDON. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead. I want to be sure now we know what
your recitation is about.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss BoviNGDON. Yes.
Now, if the Chair will help the counsel be quiet long enough for
me to finish stating my legal ^'ounds, I will continue.
This committee has no jurisdiction in this hearing
Mr. Arens. Has no what ?
Miss BoviNGDON. Jurisdiction in this hearing.
Its activities, its authorizing resolution, as I told you just now, I
have read recently — this specific question that you are addressing ta
me, all violates the Constitution, and I want to say that under article I
and article III, as you fellows know, you attorneys know, we have
a division of power in this country. We have a legislative power and
we have the judiciary power. And I want to tell you that this is an
unconstitutional thing, as a layman, that this committee is entering
the field of the judiciary field, and putting me on trial before the
public.
That is my third point. I have one other point.
Mr. Arens. Fourth. Is this your last point ?
Miss Bo^^NGDON. I hope I make this —
The last point was made clear to you, that this committee is a block
to me as a citizen carrying out my constitutional duties. You are a
legislative block only. You have legislative responsibilities. You
are not a judiciary group.
Therefore, to put me on trial jeopardizes me as a citizen of the
United States to carry out my duties as a citizen. That is another
point.
Don't interrupt me, please, counsel. Just be quiet for a few minutes.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you have still another point?
Mr. ScHEREij. Mr. Chairman, while she is looking at her notes I
want to make this observation.
There is this difference between this witness' statement, in which
she is referring to notes, and the witness who testified a little while
ago from that prepared statement. This statement obviously was pre-
pared by this witness herself. But it was obvious to me that that other
witness could not have
COMMLWIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6793
Miss BovixGDOx. "Wliat is obvious to you might not be obvious to
tinother.
I^et's go on witli our fourth point.
Mr. ScHERER. I wasn't attacking you, madam, I said
Mr. Arexs. He was commending you, Witness.
Mr. Scherer. I was commending you.
Mr. Arexs. You have an original transcript here.
Mr. DoTLE. Let's go ahead, please.
Miss BoviNGDON. The committee is relaxed now so that they can
go on and listen to me, I hope.
The fourth point : I decline to answer, and I invoke and I stand
upon my first amendment, the first amendment of the Constitution.
It protects and secures me under a number of things, the things we
are fighting for : freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of
a lot of things, thought and association. That is, I stand upon the
first amendment to this Constitution.
The fourth amenchnent, or the fifth amendment I also stand upon.
It is very, very important under such conditions.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Miss Bovingdon, is that the last of your dissertation?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Is that all in response ? Is that your answer ?
Miss BoviNGTON. You heard mj- answer.
Mr. Arens. Xow, ma'am, you were very much perturbed a little
while ago. You said that someone might fire j^ou, might get your
job if you told us where you worked. And, curiously enough, we have
an exhibit here in which you tried to get everybody's job on the House
Committee on Un-American Activities back in December 1947 ?
I see here in the Communist Daily People's World :
Un-American group is chief drive target.
Abolition of the House Un-American Committee by public demand has been
set as one of the major objectives of the San Francisco cliapter of the Civil
Rights Congress, it was announced today by Marva Bovingdon, executive
secretary —
and so forth.
Look at that article and see if you have a little twinge of conscience
trying to get everybody's job on this committee and putting all these
investigators out of work.
Look at that and see what your reaction is to this question of
imemployment.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 525," see appendix, p. 80-)3.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Could you help us on that, please ?
Miss Bovingdon. I refuse to answer this question on the protective
grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. We have a number of exhibits here, and we don't want
to tax you and don't want to tax the time of the committee any more
than necessary because we have a number of other witnesses.
Mr. Appell, one of the investigators of the committee, is going to
display to you now some checks made payable to yourself by the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. He is going to
show you the registration of yourself in the Southern California
Conference to Protect the Rights of the Foreign Born. He is going
to show you one or two exhibits from the Communist Daily People's
6794 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
World witli reference to certain activities of various committees,
campaign committees.
Would you kindly look at these and just tell this committee if you
would be good enough to verify their authenticity.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 526a-c and 527a-c," see appen-
dix, pp. 8033-8038.)
Miss BoviNGDON. I wouldn't be good enough to. I stand on my
constitutional grounds and I protect my interests under the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Aeens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that when this
witness, if, as, and when she signs her voucher, that part of the
voucher bearing her signature be incorporated in the record so there
may be a comparison of signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 528," see appendix, p. 8039.)
Mr. Arens. I now respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Velde, any questions ?
Mr. Velde. No.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ask her with reference to her present mem-
bership in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arens. I asked her with reference to the identification of Mrs.
Schneider. There is a presumption of law that a present state of facts
continues.
I will do that. Miss Bovingdon, are you now a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Miss BoviNGDON. Am I a Catholic? Am I a Jew? Am I a trade
unionist ?
This is Reichstag fire stuff in the council room today. And it
certainly shows and it is proving to the people of the United States
what we have to be aware of.
I refuse to answer this question under the first amendment and the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Mr. Doyle. I think I heard you refer to article III, and I wondered
if you intended to refer to article III as one of the articles you stood
upon in the Bill of Rights because, while you did refer to articles I and
V, with article III, I thought maybe you intended to refer to some
other article because article III of the amendments refers to the
quartering of soldiers in time of peace in any house.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I merely call it to your attention so, if you intended
at that point to refer to amendment 1 or 5, you wouldn't misquote
yourself.
Miss Bovingdon. I happen to know my Constitution very well.
But my counsel, I would like to have explain that to you, as an at-
torney to an attorney.
Mr. Doyle. I hand a copy of the Constitution and Bill of Rights
to counsel, and call your attention to the fact that article III of the
amendments refers to the quartering of soldiers.
And I am not criticizing you, madam. I merely wanted to
Mr. MuRRisH. Chairman Doyle, do I have your permission to make
response to that question ?
Mr. Doyle. No, no.
Mr. MuKRisH. Because she did use article III. She did not mean
amendment 3, sir. She meant article III.
COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6795
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. That straightens it out satis factoril3^
But I didn't want the witness to refer inaccurately to something
she intended to use.
Mr. MuRKiSH. It is not article I which she separately invoked, but
amendment 1.
Mr. Doyle. I didn't bring this up to criticize anyone. Thank you.
The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cone Young, please come forward.
Mr. DoYT.E. Mr. Young, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Young. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Will you have the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF CONE C. YOUNG
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Young. Cone C. Young, 24513 Lakme Avenue, Los Angeles;
truckdriver-salesman.
Mr. Chairman, not to interrupt the learned gentleman, would it be
appropriate for me to ask one question before we start ?
Mr. Doyle. You are asking me as chairman ?
Mr. Young. Yes. as the chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead and ask one question.
Mr. Young. First, in the previous interrogations here I have heard
my name used, at least the name similar to mine.
I would like for the chairman to be completely positive that all
questions asked me are of a nature which I have played some part in
perhaps, or have some doings with, because I don't want to be involved
in questions that would refer to somebodv else at some time.
Mr. Doyle. I am sure that our counsel will ask you who you are,
ascertain who you are, to make sure of your identity so that you can't
get mixed up with any other young man.
Mr. Young. Very good.
One further question ; very simple.
You have referred to, here, two or three times in the past — I am not
a man of letters as some have been here. I am a common worker.
But as a constituent of yours, I think it would be appropriate if you
would allow me to ask a couple of questions of you in respect to such
legislation when it is over. You have allowed that privilege to us.
Mr. DoYT.E. You go ahead and answer the questions of our counsel.
Mr. AitENS. Mr. Young, you are appearing today in response to a
subpena which was served upon 3^ou by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Young. That is quite right, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you are not represented by counsel ?
Mr. Young. I am not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Young, do you know a man by the name of Louis
Rosser, R-o-s-s-e-r?
Mr. Young. I have no recollection of such individual ; no, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, may I interject here. I don't think you
have identified him as to residence and occupation.
6796 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Young. I certainly quoted it, your Honor.
Mr. Veldr. You did?
Mr. Young. Yes, I did.
Mr. Velde. I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Young, we want to display to you a few documents
here. The first document is a call to trade unions, to fraternal and
religious gi'oups and so forth, to join a California conference on immi-
gration matters. It has, among other people, a Cone C. Young listed
here as a sponsor, identified as president of the Harbor Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at that and see if that refreshes your recollection and
if you are the Cone C. Young alluded to here.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 529," see appendix, p. 8040.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Young. It is my name, if that is what you refer to, your Honor.
Mr. Arens. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Were you at
that time president of this Harbor
Mr. Young. No. That is the one I am not. I was not president
of anything.
Mr, Arens. "VNTiat was your affiliation with that group, that Harbor
group ?
Mr. Young. I was merely a chairman through request, but not a
president.
Mr. Arens, Have you ever seen that particular document befoie?
Mr. Young. No, sir; not to my knowledge. No, sir; I don't recall
ever seeing it.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any idea how your name got on there?
Mr. Young. No, I don't, sir. No, I don't.
Mr. Arens. There is not much difference between a chairman and
president, is there ?
Mr. Young. I think there is, and I would define it for you later, with
the permission of the chairman. I will define it for you.
Mr. Doyle. Maybe the counsel wants that difference now. Do
you ?
Mr. Arens. It is all right with me.
Mr. Scherer. His idea is different.
Mr. Arens. I have no objection.
Mr. Young. Mr. Doyle and chairman, it would entail a little bit
of lengthy explanation. I hope you will bear with me while I make
it.
Mr. Scherer. If you are telling us the difference between chairman
and president.
Mr. Young. No, no — yes, there is a motivation. Shall we use that
word? There is a motivation. In other words — no, no. Let's be
frank about something. Mr. Doyle, you said we could do that, didn't
you? There is a motivation why you climb a pole or why you do
anything, isn't there? Am I correct in that?
Mr. DoYi.E. We don't want you to get up on the pole here.
Mr. Young. No, but I am trying to make myself clear as to why
I would be designated as a certain thing. If I accepted this or did
not accept it, it would be motivation thereof, would it not ?
Mr. Arens. To get the record straight, were you at any time chair-
man of the Harbor Committee for Protection of Foreiini Born ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6797
Mr. Young. For a brief period, yes.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?
Mr. Young. I don't recall the dates. It's been quite a long while
ago, and I don't recall the dates.
Mr. Arens. This particular document, I am advised by Mr. Wheeler
of our staff, refei-s to November of 1951.
Mr. Young. If I were to have made a guess at it, which it certainly
would have been, it would have been 5 or 6 years, yes. But I couldn't
recall that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let us see if we can proceed, Mr. Young, by asking
you if this document here would refresh your recollection. It is the
Communist Daily People's World of March 27, 1951, with reference
to a harbor rally to expose witch hunts. According to this article,
it was held in the Yugoslav Hall under the auspices of the newly
formed Los Angeles Harbor Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. The article further states, is it Cone or Conn ?
Mr. Young. Cone. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Cone C. Young is president.
Kindly look at that and see if this article truly represents the fact.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 530," see appendix, p. 8041.)
Mr. Young. Well, I can answer you without looking at it.
If we are going to use the word "president," no.
Mr. Doyle. Well, you said a few minutes ago that you were presi-
dent for a short time.
Mr. Young. No, chairman. Your Honor. I made a distinction.
Mr. DoTLE. I understood you to say you were the president for a
short time.
Mr. Young. No. That is why I said the word does not fit the
occasion.
Mr. Arens. You think you are chairman instead of president, that
is the difference ; is that correct ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a letterhead of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born with a
number of sponsors, including a Cone, C-o-n-e, C. Young. Is that
3^ou ?
(See exhibit No. 502b, appendix, p. 7984.)
(There was no response.)
Mr. Young. I answer it with respect to that is my name. Yes,
that is my name.
Mr. Arens. Let me ask you this question :
Are vou now or have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party f
Mr. YouNo. That is a different story, of course, isn't it, to the
question of whether I was a chairman or not of anything? That is an
entirely different question, isn't it?
Mr. ScHERER. I move the witness be excused, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. He didn't answer it.
Mr. Velde. Of course, it is a different question. Would he answer
it?
Mr. Young. It is a different question, yes.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party ?
6798 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Young. That I cannot answer.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Young. That I cannot answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Young, a man by the name of Louis Rosser,
K-o-s-s-e-r, who was a former Communist Party functionary, has testi-
fied under oath before the Committee on Un-American Activities,
identifying you as a person who, to his certain knowledge, was a mem-
ber of the Communist Party.
Was Mr. Rosser lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. Young. Well, I can't speak for Mr. Rosser, your Honor. I
ran only speak for myself.
Mr, Arens. We don't want to quibble with you. Are you now or
liave you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Young. I have no moral obligation or any other kind to speak
for anyone but myself. I want to keep it clear. I want to keep it
clear.
Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Young. No, I shall not answer that question, your Honor.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you want to invoke the fifth amendment?
Mr. Young. Yes, I do.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff in-
terrogation of this witness.
Mr. Young. I invoke my privileges due me on the- fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. I think the record should show that he invoked the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. Let the record surely show that he intended to and did
finally invoke the fifth amendment on the suggestion of Mr. Scherer
that he do so. Is that correct ?
Mr. Young. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. All right, that is all, Mr. Young.
Mr. Young. I asked you previously, Mr. Doyle, to ask a question
of you.
Mr. Scherer. You ask him in his office.
Mr. Young. I didn't get any question. I merely asked for the
privilege.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead and ask me one question. If I can take 30 sec-
onds to answer it I will do it.
Mr. Young. I will do my best.
In other testimony here by other individuals you said that you
would welcome what you thought would be constructive ideas. Is
that correct ?
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr, Young. So I wondered if you would allow me that privilege.
Mr. Doyle. Why, certainly.
Mr. Young. I would certainly put my signature over anything
that
Mr, D0YI.E, You do that, Mr. Young, and I am glad you feel that
way about it. You write me a letter in Washington, as a member of
this committee, over your own signature, as you have offered to do, and
give me the benefit of what your opinion is about any or all of the
antisubversive or the security provisions of any Federal statutes.
Is that clear ?
COMMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6799
Mr. YoLTXG. Yes, that is clear.
Mr. Doyle. Send it to me. Congressman Clyde Doyle of California,
Washington, D. C, and I will get it. And I will acknowledge receipt
of it to let you know I got it.
Mr. YouxG. I would rather incur, Mr. Doyle — I wouldn't want to
go too lengthy, but I would like to say, with all due respect — I mean
this, 3'ou understand— with every constructive idea in the world, that
I actually believe that when I make this very brief statement, to use
a phrase which is commonly used, that you cannot see the forest for
the trees, or j^ou cannot see the city for the houses. I actually believe
that this committee and these gentlemen do not understand the im-
portance of public feeling.
Mr. Doyle. You write the letter you have in mind on the subject of
the anti subversive sections of any Federal statutes.
I don't want you to write me a long letter about something else. I
am inviting you to write me, as you offered to do, on this one subject
of the antisubversive, anti-Communist legislation by Congress.
And I will welcome it and promptly acknowledge receipt of it.
Thank you very much.
You are excused.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Anne Perpich McTernan.
Anne Perpich, P-e-r-p-i-c-h, the last name, I believe, is McTernan.
But we will have to check that.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. McTerxan. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Will you please take the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE PERPICH McTERNAN, ACCOM-
PANIED BY COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. MURRISH
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. McTerx^ax. Anne Perpich McTernan. Residence : 3901 Sutro
Avenue. Occupation : housewife.
Mr. Arexs. May I be sure I have your name spelled correctly.
Anne. A-n-n-e?
Mrs. McTerxax. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Middle name : P-e-r-p-i-c-h ?
Mrs. McTerxax". That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And your last name : M-c T-e-r-n-a-n ?
Mrs. McTernan. Yes.
Mr. Arens. It is Mrs. McTernan ?
Mrs. McTernan. That is right.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today, Mrs. McTernan, in response
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities?
Mrs. McTernan. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. McTernan. Yes.
6800 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arexs. Mrs. McTernan, are you now or have you ever been
a member of tlie Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. Mr. Chairman, may I give my answer to that
question ?
Mr. Arens. You may, Ma'am, as soon as we find out what you are
going to do there. You have a prepared statement?
Mrs. McTernan. Mr. Chairman, would you instruct your staff
member to give me the same courtesy that he has given Mrs. Schneider
this morning ? He told her to proceed at her own pace.
May I proceed at my own pace, please ?
Mr. Doyle. That depends upon what your pace is.
Mrs. McTernan. I would like to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Mrs. Schneider didn't take the fifth amendment this
morning. She answered all the questions.
Mr. DoTLE. Probably the counsel asked that question because he
saw what I saw. You lay some papers and typewriting in front of
3^ou. Now if that is a prepared speech we want to know that. If it
is merely memoranda prepared by you, then you are entitled to refer
to them.
Mrs. McTernan. These are notes that I intend to refer to.
Mr. Doyle. Did you make the notes ?
Mrs. McTernan. I did so indeed. And I am insulted that you
permit your staff member to ask such a question.
Mr. Doyle. He didn't ask you that. I asked you. And I assure
you I didn't intend to insult you.
Mrs. McTernan. May I proceed ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, go ahead.
Mrs. McTernan. You ask^d me here because you disagree with
what you think I stand for. And because you disagree with what you
think I stand for, you are going to try to hold me up to the pillory like
in the old-fasliioned colonial days. And I Avould now like to give you
the legal reasons why I will not answer.
Mr. Doyle. Very good. Give us the legal reasons.
Mrs. McTernan. The first reason for refusing to answer that ques-
tion is under our system the people have a riglit to an independent
opinion. Government and law in this country rest upon the consent
of the governed. Neitlier you nor any agency of government has any
power to interfere with or coerce the consent by such proceedings as
this.
My second reason : under the first amendment I have an inalienable
right to my own opinions and my own associations. This kind of a
proceeding is an attempt to deny me my first amendment freedom.
The tliird reason : your questions are an effort to call me to account
for what I believe, what I liave said and what I think. No legislative
body has the right to accuse or call to account the people of this
country on this or any other matter.
Mr. Scherer. On this or any other matter ?
Mrs. McTernan. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Don't you think
Mrs. McTernan. May I finish ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, but I have got to interrupt you right here.
Do you think a committee of Congressmen can investigate the illegal
sale of narcotics in this country ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6801
Mrs. McTeknan. Mr. Chairman, may I finish my answer, please,
to the first question that was posed to me ?
Mr. Doyle. Here is a proper question in view of your declaration
that Congress has no right to ask an American citizen any question.
You made that statement just now.
Mrs. McTeknan. On matters of legislation.
Mr. Doyle. Well, may I be frank with you ?
Do you mean that Congress can't legislate or can't investigate in the
field of, for instance, legislation against narcotics? Is that your
statement ?
Mrs. McTeknan. Mr. Chairman, I am directing my answer to the
question originally put before me regarding my political associations
and my belief s.
Mr. Doyle. Xo. We are not asking you about your political asso-
ciations. We are asking you whether or not you were a member of
the Communist conspiracy. The Communist Party is not a legal po-
litical party ; it is a conspiracy as a matter of declaration by the United
States Congress.
We are not inquiring into your affiliations or anything of the sort.
We are asking you for the purpose of getting at whether or not, and
the manner in which, you have been active, if you have been, in the
field of trying to repeal or destroy the elfectiveness of anti-Communist
legislation. And that is the purpose of the question. But we will not
question you as to your views or your opinions on legislation. You
have a right to those opinions.
But we take it that if you are going to lobby Congress we are entitled
to know where the lobbying comes from, whether it comes from a
bona fide citizen or a dummj^ Communist front.
Mrs. IMcTernan. JNIr. Chairman, you have asked me a question. I
would like to give you my legal reasons.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mrs. McTeknan. For refusing to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead and read the other reason.
Mrs. McTeknan. If you will extend to me the courtesy and the
amenities that you have extended to the witnesses that come here to
tell you what you would like to hear
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mrs. McTeknan. I would appreciate that.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead and read your prepared statement very
quickly.
Mrs. McTeknan. These are notes that I have written down because
I am not a lawyer, and I want to make sure that I know my legal rights
and that I am protected by those legal rights before such a body as
this.
Mr. DoYT.K. I am sure you are being protected. Your counsel is
very able.
Mrs. McTeknan. May I continue now ?
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead. Don't ask that question unnecessarily. Go
ahead.
Mrs. McI'ernan. You are not a court or a grand jury, and your
ptTorts to be eitlier one are subversive of the Constitution. Number
four
6802 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. May I ask you another question ?
Mrs. McTernan. You aie asking me these questions to ensnare me
- in a possible prosecution. I refuse to be a witness against myself.
Mr. ScHERER. Madam, would you desist a minute ? I have a ques-
tion to ask you. I certainly have a right to inquire, and you can
continue.
Mrs. McTernan. I am still answering the first question, sir.
Mr. Scheri:k. I want to ask a question about all these reasons you
are giving. You are saying this is not a court or grand jury.
Would you tell a grand jury, if they asked you, whether you were
a member of the Communist Party ? Or would you use these same
arguments before a grand jury ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. The district attorney is sitting right over here. He
might be interested in calling you and asking you that question ; if you
would say that you would be willing to tell a grand jury without in-
voking the fifth amendment.
Mrs. McTernan. I have given you the first amendment as one of
my legal grounds, and I am protected by that. And I would like to
continue to give you my reasons for refusing to answer the first question
that was directed to me.
Mr. Scherer. We will reserve that, and then we will ask that same
question.
Mrs. McTernan. You are asking me these questions to try to en-
snare me in a possible prosecution. I refuse to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Doyle. No, We are not.
Mrs. McTernan. The fifth amendment is designed to protect
those
Mr. Doyle. Let the record show, as chairman of the committee, I
protest that statement as absolutely false and groundless.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. I think that is a very reasonable statement, and I
stand on it. The fifth amendment is designed to protect those who
disagree with those temporarily in power. In short, your body is an
instrument of tyranny, and I refuse to cooperate with your efforts to
destroy the American Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Is that all of your answer, ma'am?
Mrs. McTernan. That is the end of my answer.
Mr. Scherer. Will you, if called by the District Attorney before the
grand jury, tell the gi-and jury then whether you are a member of the
Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. You raised the question about this not being a court
or jury.
Mre. McTernan. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated, Mr. Scherer.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Arens. I want to display to you a document. It is a photo-
static copy of your picture taken in Budapest, Hungary,
American delegates to the Second World Youth Congress in Budapest ar-
rived in New York aboard the Queen Mary yesterday.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6803
Mr. Arens. This photograph in 1949 shows a number of young
people including an Anne Perpich, P-e-r-p-i-c-h, who just returned
from Budapest, Second World Youth Congress.
Look at that photograph and that article.
Would you kindly look at it ?
(Docvmient marked "Exhibit No. 531," see appendix, p. 8041.)
IMrs. McTerxax. I think the photographers and you want to get
a sensational story. So I will wait until the photographers snap
the picture.
Mr. Arens. Don't you want him to take your picture looking at
your picture taken in Budapest, Hungary?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. I decline to answer your question on the grounds
previously stated, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now look at the picture and tell this committee, if you
please, ma'am, if that is your picture taken as you returned from
the World Council of Connnunist Youth at Budapest, Hungary.
While you are under oath tell this Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties if that is a true and correct representation of you and description
of your activities.
Airs. McTernan. Would you ask me that? I got a little lost. I
thought I followed the beginning of the question, but not the last.
Mr. Arens. Take a look at the picture and I can ask you the ques-
tion. Look at the picture and tell this committee whether or not you
were in Budapest, Hungary, in 1949 with this Communist world
youth festival.
Mrs. McTernan. Same grounds.
Mr. Arens. AVhat do you mean, same grounds ?
Mrs. McTernan. I refuse to answer the question on the same^
gi-ounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you changed your mind about all this? Do
you know what has happened in Budapest in the course of the last
several weeks ? The Communist Soviet tanks have been mowing down
the people like wheat in a wheat field.
Mrs. McTernan. Are you asking my opinion ?
Mr. Arens. I am asking it of you in all earnestness.
Mrs. McTernan. I am asking you in all earnestness, will you try
to listen to the people and desist from going about destroying the
Constitution of the United States ?
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of a conspiratorial apparatus
based on deceit and deception and perversion, designed to destrov the
Constitution of the United States ?
Mrs. McTernan. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you a photograph of your-
self taken individually.
Pick Your Youth Fighter for Peace.
The Western Pennsylvania Youth Committee for Peace.
Vote for the young person you want to represent you in Budapest, Hungary,
at the World Fe<leration of Democratic Youth Peace Conference — August 11)41).
There are thi-ee young ladies there, and your picture is No. 2 — Ann
Perpich. Look at tliat photograph in that exhibit and tell this com-
6804 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
mittee whether or not that is a true and correct representation of
yourself.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 532," see appendix, p. 8042.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. The great Roman historian, Tacitus, once said:
Rare and happy are the times when we may think and express what we feeL
Unfortunately, gentlemen, this is one of those dark times when we
can't speak what we sincerely feel.
Mr. Aeens. Did you rehearse that, too, prior to the time you came
here?
Mrs. McTernan. That is one of my favorite quotes, and I love it.
I thought I would like to share it with you.
Mr. Arens. We appreciate that. Now would you just share with
us your knowledge with reference to this Communist youth festival
held in Budapest, which you attended ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. I am defending the Constitution for myself as
well as for all others, and I stand on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now would you tell us about this Committee for World
Youth Friendship and Cultural Exchange which met in Berlin. And
that is an initiating committee, according to this document, including
one Anne Perpich, Pittsburgh Sloboda, S-1-o-b-o-d-a, Singing Society.
Were you a member of the Pittsburgh Sloboda Singing Society and
did you mitiate, or were you one of the initiators, of that international
conference held in Berlin ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 533a, b," see appendix, pp. 8043,
8044.)
Mrs. McTernan. Are you trying to deny me the right to sing also ?
Mr. Doyle. May we have the answer, please?
Mrs. McTernan. Same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell of this staff is going to display to you a
number of checks payable to yourself by the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. Some of these checks are original
checks and some of these checks are photostats. Kindly look at these
checks and see if you can verify their authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 534a," see appendix, pp. 8045,
8046.)
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Scherer. That committee had a lot of people on the payroll.
Mr. Arens. They collected a lot of money and they still do. They
will keep on collecting long after we leave town.
Mr. Scherer. To support all these Commies.
Mr. Arens. As the chairman knows and as the distinguished com-
mittee member of Ohio knows, there are 180 organizations that we
know of which the Communists have created for the purpose of des-
troving this one law, in addition to the organizations they have created
to destroy the other laws.
We were having a little colloquy on tlie side. Now we are ready
for your answer.
Mr. Scherer. T wonder if the people who contribute to these organ-
izations are aware of the fact that their contributions eventually find
their way into the hands of these Communists. Do they laiow that?
Mr. Arens. That is one of the tragedies, Mr. Scherer.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6805
Mrs. McTernax. I think it is a tragedy that your committee is
trying to stop people from gathering and discussing and ^Yorking to
repeal or amend any legislation, no matter what their policies.
Mr. Arens. Have we done anything to stop you in an}'- of your
efforts in that regard ? If we have, tell us about it and we will apolo-
gize to you if we stopped you in any efforts of that kind. Tell us
anything we have done now to stop you in your efforts to cause a
repeal of the immigration laws, the Smith Act, the Internal Security
Act, the Communist Control Act, or any of the other anti-Communist
legislation on the books. Have we done anything to stop you?
Mrs. McTernan. Is that the outstanding question now ?
Mr. Arens. Have we done anything to stop you ?
Mrs. McTernan. It is obvious that you are pillorying me here for
anything that you think I have done.
Mr. Arens. You tell us what you have done, that we have tried to
stop.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernax. The same grounds.
]Mr. Arens. Now did you invoke the fifth amendment yet on the
checks ?
Mrs. McTernan. I asked you if there was an outstanding question.
Mr. Arens. Then I apologize to you. I have stopped you in one
of your answers.
Tell this committee are those checks there, which bear your endorse-
ment, payable to you from the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, true, correct, authentic checks? Or are they
forgeries and fakes ?
Mrs. McTernan. I w411 not answer that. The same grounds.
Mr. Arens. What do you mean "the same grounds" ? Let's get the
record clear, please.
Mrs. McTernan. All the grounds that I have stated in the record.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you, madam, to answer the question.
Mrs. McTernan. I refuse, Mr. Chairman, on the same grounds,
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Just a second. We have to have a little conference
here.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Scherer. What services did you render to the Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born that entitled you to this money?
Mrs. McTernan. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Were you interested in helping the Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born on an ideological basis or because you
received pay for helpmg them ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. It is obvious, Mr. Congressman, that you are try-
ing to bait me. Aren't you? I refuse to get into any kind of a dis-
cussion with you on your grounds for (he same reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Scherer. You are refusing to answei- that ((uestion tlien on the
grounds of the fifth amendment. Is that correct ?
85333— 57— pt. 1 43
6806 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. McTernan. On all the grounds I have. If you wish, I will
read them all over again.
Iklr. ScHEKER. Including the fifth amendment ?
Mrs. McTernan. I will gladly repeat all of the grounds that I have
stated if you wish me to.
Mr. ScHERER. Did the people who were members of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born realize that you were a
Communist ? Did you tell them that ?
IMrs. McTernan. The same grounds, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Was this money for services you rendered oi- for
expenses you incurred in connection with your activities on behalf
of the Coinmittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. Same grounds, Mr. Congressman.
Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Scherer, I could help answer that question
as long as the witness didn't.
Here are some 10 or 12 checks for salary to this witness, with other
items like expenses and so forth. There is salary — $50; salary — $50;
salary — $50; and so forth. That answers your question.
Mr. Scherer. There is another motive then besides
Mr. Doyle. Some 18 or 20 checks.
Mr. Scherer. Besides the extreme interest in the foreign born.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. I think we need a committee to defend some of these
aliens from agents such as this woman here.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the next witness would help
the committee on that very issue that you are talking about.
Now we have here a letter on the letterhead of the Los Angelas
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which Amie M. Perpich,
signs as administrative secretary. I respectfully suggest that this be
displayed to her and that if, as, and when she signs a voucher for her
per diem and expenses, that part of the voucher bearing her signature
be incorporated in the body of the record so there may be a comparison
of signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit Nos. 534b, c," see appendix, pp. 8047,
8048.)
Mr. Doyle. I wish to state this, that I was under the impression,
from most of the witnesses here in the last 2 days in connection with
the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, that they were volun-
teer citizens who were doing an unselfish job for the protection
of foreign born.
It is revealing that there are
Mr. Scherer. So many on the payroll.
Mr. Doyle. So many on the payroll.
Where does the money come from ?
Mr. Arens. Maybe the witness could help us on that.
Mr. Scherer. And so many Communists on the payroll. We haven't
found a one who wasn't a Communist on the payroll.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Scherer. I wonder if the contributors know that.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the outstanding question?
Mr. Chairman, does the record reflect that the signature on the
voucher is to be incorporated?
Mr. Doyle. So ordered.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6807
]Mr. Arexs. Would you answer the outstanding question ?
Mrs. McTernan. I think you will agree with me this is truly an
unfair forum, all of you standing here hurling all those question, side
discussing going on. What is it you would like? ^^^lat is the ques-
tion outstandinir?
Mr. Arens. The question is, Is that your signature on the letter-
head?
Mrs. McTernax. Same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute. Is any insinuation or any statement I
have made about you or the Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, false?
Mrs. McTernan. I refuse to dignify that answer, on the same
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. You just said that I was making some false charges
and insinuations, and I give you the opportunity now to say in what
respect anything I said, or any insinuation I made, was untrue or
false.
And I am convinced, young lady, what I said is true.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. That is your conviction.
Mr. Scherer. The only evidence we have before this committee
is the fact that those on the paj^roU were known Communists.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. That is those on the payroll of the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Scherer. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell of our staff is going to display to you a
number of exhibits in the interest of economy of time.
We have here the signature cards by yourself signing for the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in your capacity
of administrative secretary. We have letterheads ancl other docu-
ments of that character. We have documents with respect to various
conferences in which you were identified.
Kindly look at those documents and tell this committee while you
are under oath if you would l^e good enough to verify their authen-
ticity in describing you and your activities.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. McTernan. Same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
]\Ir. DoYT.E. Any question ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Could we recess about 5 minutes, Mr. Chairman.
^fv. DoYiJE. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members present :
Re])ivsentatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle, Velde, and
Scherer.)
]\fi". Doyle. The committee will please recojivene.
6808 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Let the record show that all three members of the subcommittee are
present.
Mr. Arens. Stephen Fritchman, kindly come forward.
:Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Reverend Fritchman. I do.
TESTIMONY OP STEPHEN H. FRITCHMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Reverend Fritchman. Stephen H. Fritchman. As for the occupa-
tion, I have already answered that question in published testimony by
this committee of September 1951.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. It will only take you a fraction of a second.
Reverend Fritchman. I am objecting to answering anything but
my name on the grounds that I would now like to state, and I have
prepared the statement of a page and a half as to the grounds for re-
fusing to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. I object to the reading of a statement.
Mr. Doyle. That is a prepared statement by you ? .
Reverend Fritchman. This is the statement of why I am objecting
to answering these questions, and it would be saving all of our time,
I believe, if I could read it to you at this time.
Mr. Velde. Have you supplied the committee with a copy of it?
Reverend Fritchman. I have brought a copy to supply the com-
mittee with.
Mr. Velde. Within a reasonable length of time prior to your ap-
pearance here ?
Reverend Fritchman. I prepared it yesterday.
Mr. Velde. I think you know what the committee rules are, don't
you ? I am sure your attorney does.
Mr. D0Y1.E. We haven't received a copy of that, Reverend Fritch-
man.
Reverend Fritchman. I have come here the first time and I have
brought a copy with me.
Mr. Doyle. I know. But under the rules we were supposed to re-
ceive a copy of that, and then we could determine whether or not we
would be able to allow you to read the whole statement.
Reverend Fritchman. Well, it is about 250 words of the reason I
am declining to answer the question. It is relative to the question.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I don't think we should violate our own
rules and allow him to read this statement to us.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Velde. I think it might be all right to have him submit it to us
for consideration. Outside of that, I object to him reading the state-
ment.
Mr. Doyle. Our rules provide that you should have provided us
with a copy of that statement. Therefore, go ahead and give your
reasons orally, but I can't permit you to read the statement.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6809
Reverend Fritchman. Well, in the statement I have a sentence that
is a specific answer as to why I am refusing on the basis that I have
already answered the questions and on the basis of the first and fifth
amendments. I decline to answer information already given to the
committee in two previous hearings. I have answered the questions.
Mr. Arens. Now, sir, are you now, or have you ever been, a member
of a godless conspiracy controlled by a foreign power?
Reverend Fritchman. That is a rather loaded question with valued
judgments that I am not accepting. I decline to answer, having
answered that question in 1946. For the same reasons I gave before.
Mr. Arens. Just a moment, sir.
Reverend Fritchman. I am finishing a sentence. You asked me
a question.
Mr. Arens. Before you declined to answer the question you made
a comment, and I want you to tell this committee in what respect you
take issue with the committee.
Mr. Kenny. Mr. Chairman, I am a lawyer. I don't think the
reporter could possibly have that transcript correct. I think if we
can have the counsel and witness talk one — —
Mr. Arens. Counsel, you have received a copy of the rules of this
committee.
Mr. Kenny. I am an old practitioner before this committee.
Mr. Arens. As an old practitioner you know that your sole and
exclusive prerogatives are to advise your client.
Now please answer the question, sir.
Mr. Kenny. I think
Mr. Arens. In what respect do you take issue with the question?
Mr. Kenny. I think the record should be read if the reporter can
be so directed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that counsel be admonished
that his sole and exclusive prerogatives are to advise his client as to
his rights.
Reverend Fritchman. I object to anything but a direct question.
I felt it was a rather loaded question.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what is loaded about it. That is what we want
you to tell us about it. What is loaded about that question ?
Reverend Fritchman. I will be glad to. I object to your use of
adjectives. Why don't you just ask the question you have in mind?
Mr. Arens. Tell us what adjectives you object to.
Reverend Fritchman. The word "godless."
Mr. Arens. Why do you object?
Reverend Fritchiman. I am not
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to answer any further on this.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest tliis witness has volunteered a
statement. He opened the door. He said he protests the use of the
word "godless" in connection with a question in which I was describ-
ing the Communist conspiracy. I insist the witness be ordered and
directed to answer tlie question.
( Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. Will you kindly read the record so I will
have the question straight.
6810 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter as follows :)
Now, sir, are you now, or have you ever been, a member of a godless conspiracy
controlled by a foreign power ?
Eeverend Fritcitman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. I think, ]Mr. Kenny, that I just want to observe that
ought to prove tliat we have tlie best stenotype reporter in the country.
Mr. Arens. Let's be sure this record is clear Reverend Fritchman,
is your declination here to the principal question
Reverend Fritchman. To the question as read.
Mr. Arens. Or is your declination with reference to the subsidiary
question as to why you protest the use of the word "godless" as an
adjective describing the Communist conspiracy ?
Reverend Fritchman. To the question as read by the reporter, I
have gi ven the an swer .
Mr. Arens. Do you protest the use of the word "godless" as an
adjective describing the Communist conspiracy ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Reverend Fritchman. I am refusing to answer this on the grounds
it is a matter of opinion and we are not here to discuss opinions be-
fore this committee.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chainnan, tlie witness opened the door on this
query by protesting the use of the word "godless" in my description of
the Communist conspiracy. It was a voluntary statement, and I insist
that he be ordered and directed to answer that question at his peril.
Mr. Doyle. Reverend Fritchman, I don't think you have answered
that question.
Reverend Fritchman. I am refusing to answer questions of opinion,
theological or otherwise, since this is not — — •
Mr. Doyle. On the grounds of what ?
Reverend Fritchman. On the grounds that that is not the purpose
of tliis committee. It was not instructed to inquire into matters of
religious opinion.
Mr. Doyle. Is that your sole objection ?
Reverend Fritcliman. My objection is That is my objection.
And on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments. This is not a
relevant place.
Mr. Scherer. He has refused to answer on the grounds of the first
and fifth amendments. Let's go to the next question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Fritchman, my associate here — Mr. Wheeler —
is going to display to you a number of letterheads of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in which your name ap-
pears as one of the honorary cochairmen.
Kindly look at those letterheads, and, while you are under oath,
tell this Committee on Un-American Activities whether or not you are
accurately described on those letterheads.
(See exhibits No. 433^37, appendix, pp. 7858-7860.)
Mr. Kenny. Is there any suggestion the witness is not under oath,
Mr. Chairman ? This, I think, is unnecessarily offensive to this wit-
ness. I think that
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel again be advised that
your sole and exclusive prerogatives are to advise this witness, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6811
]\Ir. Kenny. I am addressing myself to the chairman.
Mr, Arens. And you are under the rules of this committee as we
all operate.
Mr. Kenny. Can I speak to you, ]Mr. Chairman ? I think that the
traditions of courtesy of the California bar should be imparted to
counsel here. There is no point in asking this man, this witness, if he
is under oath while he is under oath. This is umiecessarily offensive
to this witness.
Mr. Arens. I suggest the witness be ordered and directed to answer
the question.
Mr. Velde. I am going to object to this tirade. I think Mr. Kenny
in his prior appearances has maintained a good attitude.
Mr. Kenny. We never had anything like this before.
Mr. Velde. You don't talk back to the connnittee.
Mr. Kenny. We have always gotten along. I have never had a
witness insulted like this before.
Mr. Velde. I object to anything further.
Mr. IvENNY. Just cool your counsel down.
Mr. Arens. Now kindly answer the question.
Keverend Fritchman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth
amendments regarding associations.
Mr. Arens. The reporter says counsel has not been identified on
the record.
You are appearing today with counsel, Mr. Fritchman?
Reverend Fritchman. Robert Kenny is my counsel.
Mr. Arens. Is counsel properly identified on the record?
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. Arens. My associate Mr. Wheeler is going to lay before j^ou
still another document. It is a letterhead of the Sixth Annual Con-
ference To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims,
in which the name of Stephen II. Fritchman appears as one of the
sponsors.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not it accurately
describes you.
(See exhibit No. 467, appendix, p. 7901.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Now we have a document, the 24th National Conference
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born to be held
here in Los Angeles tomorrow, December 8 and 9, 1956. And among
the sponsors, according to this document, is Rev. Stephen H. Fritch-
man.
(Document marked "Exhibit VIII," see appendix, pp. 8440-8465.)
Kindly look at this document and tell this committee, if you please,
while you are under oath, whether or not that is you.
Mr. Kenny. If the chairman please, I think that is unnecessarily
offensive, and I ask that counsel be instructed not to insert this "while
you are under oath."
Mr. ScHERER. Do you raise that question because perhaps you
Mr. Kenny. Just as a matter of common courtesy.
Reverend Fritchman. I have taken the oath and I
6812 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You are not taking issue with me that you are not
under oath, are you ?
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. Let's get this straight.
Do you have in mind, in asking that question, the witness refusing
to answer the question as to Communist Party membership ?
Mr. Arens. That among other things, yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I can see his point.
Eeverend Fritchman. Mr. Chairman, in the statement that I would
like to offer and which you have rejected, I have some comments
regarding the Walter-McCarran Act and so on. So they are there if
the committee is interested in having them. Otherwise I shall say I
am declining to answer the question as asked for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Do you express your opinion
Reverend Fritchman. I am expressing no opinions. This is not
where I express my opinions. I have other opportunities.
Mr. Arens. And upon what basis do you have your other oj)por-
tunities? Where do you express your sentiments and your position
on the Walter-McCarran Act?
Eeverend Fritchman. I have it right here in my statement I am very
eager to get into the record.
Mr. Arens. Where else have j^^ou expressed it ?
Reverend Fritchman. That is why I am trying to present them
now.
Mr. Arens. Please tell us and not quibble, sir.
Reverend Fritchman. I am not quibbling.
Mr. Arens. Where else do you express yourself?
Reverend Fritchman. I am declining to answer the matter of my
associations, and where I speak and work is a matter of public record,
rather expensive record.
Mr. Arens. Then I respectfully suggest that this record now reflect
an order and direction to this witness to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. Wliat was the question so we can clarify it ?
Mr. Arens. The question is, "WHiere does he express these positions
on the Walter-McCarran Act?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Reverend Fritchman. I indicated 1 think the record will show
I have answered that question.
Mr. Scherer. Do you want to file the statement with the committee ?
Reverend Fritchman. I would like to file the statement so as to give
the answer.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever applied for a United States passport?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to answer under the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you. Reverend Fritchman, to answer the ques-
tion.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. Does this have a legislative purpose, Mr.
Chairman ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this witness now
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6813
Mr. Doyle. It is tied in ^A'ith a legislative purpose.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. May I, since I don't see the relevance, sir,
ask the pertinence of the question to the purposes of this committee ?
Mr. DoTLE. Well, very briefly, of course, the uncontradicted evi-
dence shows — and it is shown in this hearing, I believe, without con-
tradiction— that most of the leadei'ship in the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born who are getting salaries have been
identified as Communists. We, of course, are only interested in the
field of anti-Communist and antisubversive legislation.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. DoTLE. The question of passports is very pertinent to the activ-
ities of known Communists, both in the Committee for Protec-
tion of
Reverend Fritchman. I do not see the relevance of the question,
of my asking for a passport, sir, to the purpose of this committee as
established.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the
first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. "Wlieeler is going to present to you a photostatic
copy of your passport application bearing j'^our signature. Kindly
look at this document, if you please, sir, and tell this committee, while
you are under oath, whether or not that is your signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 535a, b," see appendix, pp. 8049-
8051.)
Mr. Kenny. Is there some suggestion that the oath has been
Mr. Arens. We have been over this ground 2 or 3 times before.
We have directed your attention three times to the fact that your sole
and exclusive prerogative is to advise your witness on his constitu-
tional rights.
Mr. Kenny. I am talking to the chairman.
Mr. Arens. In doing so now in this setting and this technique, you
are violating the rules of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. It is a form of question, as Mr. Scherer has brought
out, Mr. Kenny, that we feel under certain circumstances is per-
tinent. It is a form that Mr. Arens uses. It is not intended as any
insult to this witness, I assure you. It may be objectionable to you
and to othei-s.
Mr. Kenny. I am sure it is objectionable to you as a California
lawyer. You know it wouldn't pass in California.
Mr. Arens. You know. Counsel, your conduct in any court in viola-
tion of the rules of the court, as you are violating the rules of th'is
committee now, would land you in jail for contempt in 30 seconds.
Mr. Kenny. I think Mr. Doyle and I get along all right. The com-
mittee and I get along all right.
Mr. Doyle. I have instructed you, didn't I, Reverend Fritchman,
to answer the question ?
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the
first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Fritchman, we want to lay before you a copy of the
Los Angeles Examiner of September 18, 1952, showing your picture
taken with the Red Dean of Canterbury. Under the picture is this
heading :
The Trip's Off — The Reverend Stephen H. Fritchman, who was refused a pass-
port yesterday for an alleged "startling record" of Red-front affiliations, is
6814 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
shown at right, greeting the Very Rev. Hewlett Johnson, the Red Dean of
Canterbury, on the latter's visit to Los Angeles, December 9, 1948.
Kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not that is a
true and correct representation of the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 536," see appendix, p. 8052.)
Reverend Fihtciiman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments, and freedom of association.
Mr. Arens. I invite your attention, if you please, to a photostatic
copy of a page from the Communist Daily People's World ( February
10, 1953). "Five-Point Fight Mapped for Foreign-Born Defense."
It tells about a program of a conference to defend the rights of
foreign-born Americans, at which one of the speakers, whose photo-
graph appears here, is Rev. Stephen Fritchman.
Kindly look at this document and tell us if you can verify its au-
thenticity with reference to your participation in that conference.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 537," see appendix, pp. 8053,
8054.)
Reverend Fritchman. I have already presented material regarding
my sentiments on the foreign born and the Walter-McCarran Act.
So I decline to answer regarding this question on identification of an
exhibit.
Mr. Arens. Do your sentiments expressed here coincide with the
sentiments which you have already presented?
]\Ir. ScHERER. I think maybe you handed us the wrong document.
This has nothing to do with the Walter-McCarran Act. It has
nothing to do with legislation.
Reverend Fritchman. That is the wrong statement.
Mr. Arens, You spoke just a moment ago about the sentiments
which you have submitted to this committee.
Reverend Fritchman. That I have submitted to the committee
Mr. Arens. How do these sentiments compare? Do they coincide
with the sentiments you discussed in this conference?
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to discuss the opinions in this
committee,
Mr. Arens. You just had a little opinion.
Reverend Fritchman. I am trying to answer,
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be directed to answer the question.
Mr. Kenm y. May I have the question read ?
Reverend Fritchman. Will you read the question ?
(The record was read by the reporter as follows :)
How do these sentiments compare? Do they coincide with the sentiments you
discussed in this conference ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fkitctiman. I do not see, Mr. Chairman, that this ques-
tion is relevant to any legislative purpose of the work of this commit-
tee. So I would decline to answer. Am I correct ?
Mr. Arens. 1 respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer that question.
Mr. DoYT.E. I don't know what your answer may be. I am going to
have to assume that, for the purpose of the question, counsel has in
mind a legislative intent and connection .in asking me to direct you to
answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6815
Reverend Fritchman. Am I incorrect, Mr. Chairman, that I have
a right to be told what the relevance is and what the purpose is ?
Mr. Schj:rer. That statement was made by the chairman at the be-
ginning of the hearing.
Mr. Doyle. I think I made it clear.
Mr. ScHERER. It has been in the newspapers.
Mr. Doyle. The purpose of this hearing, as you know, is to learn of
the activities of identified Communists or Communist fronts
Reverend Fritcitiman. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Doyle. In the field of legislation either directly or through
undisclosed Communist fronts. And apparently you have been called
because of your sponsorship of the Los Angeles Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born.
"We have ample evidence here, yesterday and today, that that com-
mittee is certainly infiltrated by many identified Communists with
whom you apparently are associated.
(The witness confers with liis counsel.)
ilr. ^"ELDE. Infiltrated and dominated.
Mr. Doyle. My own conclusion is that the Committee To Protect
the Foreign Born allegedly is fairly well dominated by the Communist
conspiracy in this area.
Reverend Fritchman. Mr. Chairman, in the statement which I
have turned in and I have indicated that the concern of many of us
in the clergy — Bishop Mitchell and my fellow Unitarians and many
others concerned for the Walter-McCarran Act and the foreign born—
is above suspicion of having political implications. We are inter-
ested in it because of our own conscience and concern. I have stated
this in my statement. And I feel I am now being asked a matter of
opinion, and I do not think matters of opinion are matters of legis-
lative investigation. So I decline to answer,
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the last outstanding question.
Mr. Doyle. You are allowed to rely on your constitutional privilege
if you feel you want to do that.
Reverend Fritchman, I feel I must. It is a matter of opinion.
Mr. Doyle, And I instruct you, for the record, to answer the
question.
Reverend Fritchman. And I so reply,
iSIr. Arens, Now we display to you, please, a photostatic copy of
The Torch of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, in which a five-point program of action is set forth in a meeting
chaired by Rev, Stephen H, Fritchman, This five-point progi-am of
action embraces "stop deportations" with reference to the citizenship
of Rose Chernin and others, whose citizenship must be saved. Also a.
report in the developments in the cases of deportation of a number
of people and a reference to a number of publications by Connnunist
agent Abner Green and others.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you chaired
that session alluded to in The Torch.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 538," see appendix, ]m. 8055-
8057.)
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to identify the exhibit because it
apparently has to do Avith associations in which I have every right as
a citizen to involve myself.
6816 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You certainly do. And would you tell us now whether
or not you did have those associations ?
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I so direct you, Reverend Fritchman.
Reverend Fritchman. 1 decline on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you, a number
of documents — if you would kindly just glance at them quicklv because
I know that time is fleeting — referring to a number of activities bv the
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, including
the Sixtli Annual Southern California Conference to Repeal the
McCarran-Walter Act. In each of these you are identified either as
a chairman or as a leader in these various activities, including the
American Peace Crusade and the like.
Kindly look at those documents and see if any of those, in your judg-
ment, truly and accurately reflect the facts.
Reverend Fritchman. I decline to identify the exhibits for the
reasons already stated.
Mr. Arens. Just one last question now, Reverend Fritchman.
Are you familiar with the very First Psalm ?
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Have you any questions, Mr. Velde?
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that concludes the staff interro-
gation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr, SciiERER. Are you aware of the fact that on the payroll of the
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born there aro a
number of individuals who are Communists ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. I think I must refuse to answer tli. t, I^Ir.
Scherer, on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Scherer. Where does the committee get its funds to operate?
Reverend Fritchman. I am refusing to discuss associations I have
with any organizations that I feel in good conscience deserve my sup-
port and whose purposes I have a deep commitment to for the v/elfare
of the American people. And I do not think the committee has au-
thority to inquire into such free associations.
Mr. Scherer. You do not tliink this committee lias the right then
to determine whether or not this local committee for the protec-
tion of foreign born is controlled and dominated by members of the
Communist conspiracy? Do you think that is beyond the preroga-
tive of this committee?
Reverend Fritchman. I have
Mr. Scherer. Do you say that sincerely ?
Reverend Fritchman. I can sincerely go along with the resolution
of the American Unitarian Association calling for the abolition of
the committee and its work.
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking for the resolution.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6817
Reverend Fritchman. I am giving the broader answer, an inclu-
sive answer.
Mr. ScHERER. It is broad, but do you sincerely believe it is beyond
the scope of this committee's activities to determine whether or not
a local committee for the protection of foreign born is infiltrated,
dominated, and controlled by members of the Communist conspiracy ?
Reverend Fritchman. I do not feel it is the authority of this com-
mittee to inquire into the associations of men and women for their
political opinions or activities so long as they are within the law.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you consider then membership in the Communist
conspiracy as a political activity ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. I think it is a matter of opinion, sir. And
I do not wish at this
Mr, ScHERER. You advanced it. I didn't ask you.
Mr. Kenny. I suggest the witness be permitted to complete the
answer to his question.
Reverend Fritchman. I feel that there are many opportunities,
Mr. Scherer, to discuss the kind of question you have asked. And I
would most sincerely invite you to come to my church and speak and
discuss this question and others with us. I am interested in discussing
it. But I feel this is a highly prejudicial place to discuss opinions.
Mr. ScHERER. But you won't be under oath in such a discussion.
Reverend Fritchman. I do not give different answers under oath,
sir, than when I am not under oath.
Mr. Arens. You said that you w^ould invite him to your church.
What do you mean by your church? Is that a church in which you
are employed or of which you are a member or what is that church?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Reverend Fritchman. I have with me, Mr. Arens, my answers to
that question 5 years ago when I appeared before this committee, and
I would respectfully call your attention to the answers about the
church.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the question.
Reverend Fritchman. You may read them there. At your own
expense they were published.
Mr. Arens, He has declined in his opening statement to identify
his occupation. Then he turns around and invites one of tlie mem-
bers of this committee to his churcli. It is a perfectly legitimate
question. He has opened the door.
Mr. Schkrer. I will make a deal with you. If you will tell us
whether you are or ever have been a member of the Communist Party
without invoking the fifth amendment I will come to your church.
Reverend Fritchman. I don't have to — I don't have to violate my
conscience in the matter of answering questions, I hope, sir, to get an
audience at a church. It would be a bad day. You are most welcome
to come,
Mr. Doyle. Reverend Fritchman, may I make this brief statement
to you because your statement, prepared for release to this com-
mittee, which I read carefully, sounds almost entirely in the field
of representation by you that your objection to the committee is
made because you feel that the committee is looking into the rights
6818 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
of people to influence public opinion on congressional matters. That
is your own statement as I read it.
And you further limit vour statement to the subject matter of the
Walter-McCarran bill. You don't treat in your statement of the
anti-Communist sections of the Walter-McCarran bill, nor of any
other bill that we have been dealin^r with the last 2 days.
Of course, this hearing has not been limited to the Walter-McCarran
bill. Not by a long shot. This hearing has been limited, I believe,
to the field of the security measures of any Federal statutes. And we
in Congress believe — and I am sure you will agree with me — that if w^e
are lobbied by anyone, any alleged group or organization, in the field
of legislation for or against it, that we are entitled to know by whom
we are being lobbied.
And we have discovered here again today and yesterday tliat when
we are hereafter lobbied by the Committee for the Protection of For-
eign Born we can take notice — and I believe I am stating the fact —
that the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born when
it lobbies us, if it does, on any legislation in the future, until they
change pretty much those in control, we will be lobbied under the
control and direction of identified Communists.
. I make that statement very frankly to you because you have been
a longtime sponsor of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
Heverend Fritchman. ]Mr. Chairman
Mr. Doyle. And so that is the area in which we have been investi-
gating.
And it is not to differ with you because you have a different opinion
than us, nor is it to make it more difficult for people to express their
opinions to Congress. But it is that we have a rigiit as American Con-
gressmen to know whom we are dealing with. And I would feel very,
very uncomfortable always, and I shall certainly feel more uncom-
fortable now, to know that in my own home county this local com-
mittee for the protection of foreign born, and other groups that I
am learning about are evidently controlled by the Communist con-
spiracy.
Reverend Fritchman. Mr. Chairman, I wish very much, since you
hold those sentiments — and those of us who are interested in this ques-
tion of the "Walter-McCarran Act — that you would have invited Bishop
Mitchell to come and discuss this. I v>^ish you and he and I could have
a good open forum of it up at the church and discuss this because it is a
matter of concern. I respectfully listened to what you said and I think
there is a matter of real discussion here.
Mr. Doyle. Reverend Fritchman, may I make this one brief state-
ment, and then let's call it quits.
I have been on this committee several years, and I have practiced law
in California 30 years before I first went to Congress. And my views,
so far as the Commimist conspiracy is concerned, are pretty well
affirmed. And to me there is no equivocation in that field.
Reverend Fritchman. I am not foreign born.
Mr. DoYLK. That is all right.
There is room for amendment, there is room for consideration of
all legislation, you see.
But in the field of the Communist conspiracy, as evidenced in
Hungary in the last 2 weeks with those innocent people being butchered
COM]MUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6819
by the Communists from Soviet Russia, I have no equivocation. I
can't change my ground. And I am absohitely opposed to being sub-
mitted to secret, undisclosed a^jitation or eft'orts by Communists un-
disclosed through Communist Fronts, to influence legislation.
I want to know with whom I am dealing. And I believe I am
entitled to know.
Reverend Fritchmax. I appreciate your views.
Mr. Doyle. I belieA^e you know I am entitled to know.
• Reverend Fritchman. Of course. And I hope what you said- about
concern for revising the "Walter-McCarran Act will be on record, too.
Mr. Doyle. Of course.
Reverend Fritchman. Because that is the issue that brought me
here.
Mr, Doyle. Our minds are always open. I think your distinguished
counsel knows my mind is always open on those things.
Is there any other question ?
Mr. Arens. No, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Just one statement.
The committee finds it necessary to meet tomorrow. We will meet
at 10 a. m. in this room. We hope to finish tomorrow.
The committee stands in recess. Those persons under subpena who
have not been called, return here tomorrow morning at 10.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 40 p. in., Friday, December 7, the committee was
recessed, to be reconvened at 10 a. m., Saturday, December 8, 1956.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
SATURDAY, DECEMBER 8, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10 : 05 a. m,, in room
514, the Federal Building, Los Angeles, Calif., Honorable Clyde
Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle (chair-
man of the subcommittee), Harold H. Velde, and Gordon H. Scherer.
Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
Wheeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and Richard S. Weil,
staff member.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will come to order.
All members of the subcommittee are present.
Remember the building regulations. No smoking in this room.
I am just going to say that I expect that every person in the room
will practice the practice of American citizens and extend every
courtesy to the committee and the witnesses.
I think I said enough yesterday about any violation of the rules.
We do not want nor expect nor will we tolerate any demonstration of
either approval or disapproval. I think that is fair. And I will
instruct the marshal again, without further direction, if there is any
person in the room who thinks it is smart to violate that reasonable
request, to immediately eject him. This is no place for smart alecks.
Are you ready, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Rose Chernin Kusnitz, kindly come forward.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROSE CHERNIN KUSNITZ, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, A. L. WIRIN AND JOHN W. PORTER— Resumed
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Chernin, I think you were sworn yesterday.
Mrs. Kusnitz. Yes, I was.
Mr. WiRiN. I appreciate the committee's letting me sit here this
morning.
Mr. Doyle. We are glad to have you back.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Chernin, so that this record may be clear, you
were sworn yesterday ?
;Mrs. Kusnitz. Yes, I was.
6821
SoSSS — 57— pt. 1 44
6822 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. And you are today again represented by counsel ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. That I don't know. Counsel is here.
Mr. Arens. You today have counsel seated with you ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. Yes.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
]\Ir. WiRiN. My name is A. L. Wirin. I understand from the chair-
man that I may continue to represent Mrs. Kusnitz.
Mr. Doyle. That is correct.
Mr. Arens, Do you have associate counsel ?
Mr. Wirin. Yes.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter.
Mr. Arens. ^Irs. Chernin, there is some confusion in my mind at
the moment with reference to your name. We have on the subpena
which was served upon 3^ou Rose Chernin Kusnitz, K-u-s-n-i-t-z. And
we have l^en calling you in the previous interrogation Mrs. Chernin.
Can you help us on that ?
(The witness confers Avith her counsel.)
Mrs. Kusnitz. My name — ^my name is Rose Chernin Kusnitz. My
maiden name is Chernin. My married name is Kusnitz. I hyphen-
ate it and use either one.
]Mr. Arens. There may be some duplications in questions, Mrs. Kus-
nitz, because I am not too clear in my mind just how much ground
we covered yesterday. And, rather than to osnit certain important ele-
ments, we would rather go back over some of the ground so that we
can be certain that we are not omitting something of importance.
Mr. "Wheeler is now going to display to you a number of checks
which are signed "Rose Chernin" on the check form of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and which are endorsed
"Rose Chernin, Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born."
Kindly look at these checks as he displays them to you and tell us,
if vou will, please, if vou can verifv the authenticity of the signatures.
'(See exhibit No. 515, appendix, pp. 8008-801T.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kusnitz. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I believe the status of the record, coupling up
with what transpired yosterday to what transpired today, Mr. Chair-
man, has laid a sufficient groundwork that I should like now to request
that the subpena duces tecum which was served upon this lady be
incorporated in the body of the record and that she now be ordered
and directed to produce the records which are specified in the subpena
duces tecum.
Mr. Doyle. It will be so ordered. The subpenp will be included in
the record, and you are directed. Witness, to produce each and all of
the documents specified in that subpena duces tecum which was served
upon vou.
(See exhibit No. 517a, b, appendix, pp. 8019, 8020.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kusnitz. I stand on my record
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kusnitz. I stand on my statement that I made yesterday in
relation to the last question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6823
Mr. Akens. Would you be good enough, so this record is clear, to
give us the essence at least of the answer which you gave yesterday ?
You understand what we are trying to do is to try to rebuild the foun-
dation here as we did yesterday for the question which was just
submitted to you.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Chairman, may I refer to this memorandum?
Mr. Doyle. That is the same memorandum you referred to yes-
terday ?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. Yes, it is. Yesterday, from my memorandum, I
stated as follows :
That I have brought n-o records and documents because it is my
sincere belief that this committee has no right to compel any person
to produce before it records relating to efforts to repeal or influence
the" revision of any legislation, including the McCarran-Walter law.
It is further my opinion that for the committee to demand such
records violates the first amendment to the Constitution. And it is
my feeling that if I were to comply I would be contributing to that
violation, something I am unwilling to do as an American.
1 am also advised by counsel that the subpena is so broad and so
vague as to constitute a violation of the fourth amendment.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusxiTZ. In the third place, it is my opinion further that
(.his committee has no lawful authority to exist or to issue subpenas
of any kind. But, even if it had tliat authority, I think it overstepped
this authority in my subpena. And I assert my right under the fifth
amendment not to be a witness against myself.
Finally, I invoke every right granted me under the Constitution
to express my belief, that I consider it an outrage for this committee
to use its povvers to prevent Americans from seeking to influence
public opinion for tlie revision and the repeal of any legislation,
especially the racist Walter-McCarran law. I regret very sincerely
that Mr. Walter is not here so I could address him personally.
Mr. SciiEitER. Are you a citizen ?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. Yes, I am.
Mr. Sgherer. You were convicted for advocating the overthrow
of this Government by force and violence, were 3^ou not ?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. My case, as v/ell as others, is presently pending be-
fore the Supreme Court which is going to consider the constitution-
ality of the statute under which I was convicted.^
^Ir. SciiERER. You were convicted, however, by a jury in this com-
nnniity, were you not ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. KusNiTz. I have already answered this question to the best
of my ability.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Doyle. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. The answer to tJiis question is a matter of public
record. Yes, I have been convicted by a jury. But you know that
American
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
^Mrs. Kusnitz' conviction was reversed and her acquittal ordt-n-d bv the Supremo Court
Yates It ul. v. United States, 353 U. S. — , 25 U. S. Law Week 4475 (June 17, 1957).
6824 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. KusNiTz. Justice allows for appeal. And presently, as I stated
before, my case is before the Supreme Court. And, if you want my
o])inion, I believe that the last word has not been heard as to the
statute as well as my case. I am confident that — I have confidence
in that I will be exonerated.
Mr. ScHERER. And you are also under an order of deportation from
this country, are you not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. For your Communist activities. Order of depor-
tation ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. No; that is not true.
Mr. ScHERER. Well, you should be if you are not. I am going to
ask the Department of Justice why.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. WiRiN. That ought to be stricken from the record, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. ScHERER. Oh, no.
Mrs. KusNrrz. Mr. Chairman, I also think that, in fairness, this
should be stricken from the record.
Mr. DoYLE. We will consider it.
Mr. ScHERER. Where were you born?
(The witness confere with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Where were you born?
Mrs. KusNiTz. I decline to answer this question, because I don't see
the pertinence to it, and on the further grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. You were born in Russia, were you not?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. The same answer.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you. Witness, to answer the question as to where
you were born.
Mrs. KusNiTZ. I refuse for the reasons stated before.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Kusnitz, Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you
three documents. First is a brief history of the Los iVngeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. The second is a document
bearing the identification of the Los Angeles Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born at a conference in 1953 outlining a proposed
program of action for repeal of the Walter-McCarran law. The
third is a photostatic copy of a document addressed to yourself—
"Dear Rose"' — from Abner Green, executive secretary of the Amer-
ican Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. Would you
kindly look at each of tliese three documents and tell this committee
if you would be good enough to verify their authenticity.
(See exhibit Nos. 27, 426, and 512, appendix, pp. 7128, 7840-7851,
and 8001-8005.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusxiTz. I refuse to ansAver this question on the same grounds
as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a program of
action of the Los Angeles committee in which the recipient of the docu-
ment is urged to go to various newspapers, organizations, and all
public meetings to circulate petitions for which mass meetings are
called, in which post cards and wires, public-opinion polls, local
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6825
coalitions with nonliberal organizations are urged, and in which a
form of a letter is prepared in which the names of various Senators
and Congressmen are listed — an action program, all for the repeal
of the Walter-McCarran Act.
Kindly look at those documents and tell this committee, if you
please, while you are under oath, if those documents fairly and cor-
rectly represent documents prepared and circulated by the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 539a-d, see appendix, pp. 8058-
8062.)
( The witness examines documents. )
Mrs. KusNiTz. The same answer ; the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. Witness, would you also tell the committee what
part you and other Communists had in the preparation of those docu-
ments just shown to you by counsel for the committee?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kus^fiTz. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments, especially the fifth, where I am not
called upon to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you another letter-
head: "Trade Union Com-mittee for Repeal of the Walter-Mc-
Carran Law in California, 3:26 West Third Street." The letter there-
on is signed by Roy Lundt, L-u-n-d-t, chairman of that committee.
I ask you while you are under oath if you will kindly tell the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities if it is not a fact that this trade-
union committee was created by the Communist Party, and does it not
have the same address as the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
( Document marked "Exhibit No. 540,'' see appendix, p. 8063.)
( The witness examines document.)
ISIrs. KusNiTZ. The same answer,
Mr. Arens. Mr. A^^ieeler is going to display to you a document call-
ing for a fund drive and, according to this document, $25,000 is
needed very promptly in a drive which is all to culminate in a festival
of nationalities. And, according to the document, it is all under the
auspices of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Kindly look at that document and see if you will be good enough to
verify its authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 541a, b," see appendix, pp. 8064,
8065.)
(The witness examines documents.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you some checks
showing payments made by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born to a number of organizations, including the Penin-
sula Press and similar establislnnents, the Communist Daily People's
World, and to various ])ers()ns who have been identified as Comnni-
nists. Kindly look at tliese cliecks and see if you would be good
enough to verifv their autlienticity.
(See exhibit No. 515, appendix, pp. 8008-8017.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. Same answer,
Mr. Arens. I have just 1 other series of exhibits; just 3 exhibits.
One is a reproduction of Rose Chernin's report to the fifth annual con-
6826 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ference in 1955 of the Los Angeles Commitee for Protection of Foreign
Born. The second is a speech given by Abner Green at its 1956 con-
ference. iVnd tlie third is a report of Rose Chernin, executive director
of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, with
respect to the activities of that organization. Kindly look at these
three documents, if you please, while you are under oath, and tell this
committee if you would be good enough to verify their authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 542," see appendix, pp. 8066-8070 ;
see also exhibits Nos. 102c and 512, appendix, pp. 7274 and 8001.)
(The witness examines documents.)
Mrs. KusNiTZ. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoYLF.. Mr. Velde, any questions ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Alay I ask for my information before I question briefly ;
may I be informed: Wasn't the name of Anne Perpich mentioned?
Wasn't she a witness yesterday?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. What was her last name ? •
Mr. Wheeler. McTernan.
Mr. Doyle. Even though it is a public record, I do not ask you this
question to embarrass you in any way, but when was that jury trial
which you have stated is public record. Can you tell me approxi-
mately? Was it in 1955 or 1954 or 1956 ?
Mr.' WiRiN. May I tell you ? May I answer that ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes; tell me.
Mr. WiRiN. It was in 1953. Certiorari was granted by the Supreme
Court last year. And I represented Mrs. Kusnitz before the Supreme
Court on October 8, arguing the case.
Mr. Doyle. Then the trial was in 1953 ?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. In this building?
Mr. WiRiN. In this very building.
Mr. Doyle. Now may I ask this : At any time, Mrs. Chernin, after
you were convicted in that case were you suspended or did you resign
as executive secretary of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Do you understand my question ?
IVIrs. Kusnitz. I understand your question, but, Mr. Doyle, I will
have to decline to answer that question on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments to the Constitution.
Mr, DoYiiE. You understand my question ?
Mrs. Kusnitz. I certainly do.
]\Ir. Doyle. After you were convicted under the Smith Act did you
continue, did the committee allow you to continue to be executive
secretary of the Las Angeles Committee of the Foreign Born? That
is my question. You were not suspended ? Or you didn't resign ?
Mrs. Kusnitz. I understand your question.
Mr. Doyle. Pending this appeal ?
Mrs. Kusnitz. I understand your question, and the answer is as
previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6827
Mr. DoYT.?:. That is quite sliocking to me, I am frank to say, be-
cause these checks show that this year, right now, 2 months ago, you
are signing checks of substantial amounts for the Los iVngeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born. And the other person who
signs those checks is the young lady, Anne Perpich McTernan, who
testified ^-esterda}^ here.
You two are the people that sign the checks on the funds of the
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born according
to these exhibits. It is quite shocking to me that a committee — well,
perhaps I have said enough. But I am quiti> shocked to say the least.
Mr. ScHERER. Quite shocked that committee would have — I will
say it for you — quite shocked that the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born would have convicted Communists sign checks. I have
no hesitancy.
Mr. WiRiN. Her case is on appeal undecided, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle, I understand that, Mr. Wirin. But it seems to me that
at least the respect for the faith of the public that a committee of that
kind, going out into the unsuspecting public and raising funds for
the protection of the foreign born, ought at least to have the ethical
attitude toward the people who donate those funds for the protec-
tion of the foreign born not to continue on their payroll in control of
their bank account a convicted Communist although her case is on
appeal.
Mr. ScHERER. Whether she has been convicted or not, Mr. Chair-
man, she is still a Communist. There is no question about that.
Mr. Doyle. LTnless it is reversed.
Mr. Scherer. You can't reverse the fact that she is a Communist.
They might reverse the fact she had advocated the overthrow of the
Government under the Smith Act.
Mr. WiRiN. Are we through, g-entlemen ?
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Wirin.
Mr. Scherer. Checks signed by Communists to Communists. That
is all you see in these checks in connection with this committee of
the foreign born here.
Mr. Doyle. Most of them are salary checks to themselves.
Mr. Scherer. That is right.
^Ir. Wirin. Is this a debate between the committee or are you ask-
ing questions ?
Mr. Doyle. I am reading from the record of these checks.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I want the record to show the amounts of these checks
and whei'e they go to.
Mr. Scherer. I would lilce to know who is" supplying the funds
to provide for this little merry-go-round.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Here is one to Rose —
Mr. Scherer. She has been identified. Go ahead and read it.
There are a number of them to Rose Chernin.
Mr. Doyle, No, it isn't here.
These checks are $398, $725, $273, and $235.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. But all signed
Mr. Scherer. Some Rose Chernin to Rose Chernin,
6828 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. Of course, I have to presume that anyone who is a
sponsor of the Los An<^eles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, like the distinguished preacher that was here yesterday
Mr. ScHERER. He knows what is going on.
Mr. DoTLE. Has no knowledge of the fact that a convicted Com-
munist is signing the bank account of the committee for which he and
the others are sponsors.
Mr. ScHERER. He himself took the fifth amendment.
Mr. DoYLE. I don't think it is ethical conduct to the American
public from whom money is being solicited. That is, of course, the
habit of Communists to not disclose their identity.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I forgot to pose one question to this
witness.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens. Are you registered with the United States Congress
under the Lobbying Act ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. KusNiTz. I don't think this question is pertinent, but I will
refuse to answer it on the grounds of the — under the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Who is Rose Rosenberg to whom you gave a check for
$398.44?
Mrs. KusNiTZ. I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. What was the amount given to her for? What is
it for?
Mrs. KusNiTz. I refuse to answer ; the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Now while Mr. Scherer is looking at those checks for a
minute, may I have the record show apropos of what I stated to
Reverend Fritchman yesterday, one of the sponsors of this Los An-
geles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in my extemporane-
ous statement to him was that here is a concrete case where Congress is
lobbied by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born — a case where the lobbying that comes to us on anti-Commu-
nist legislation in the name of the Los Angeles Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, the funds and policy of which are absolutely
controlled and dominated by some convicted Communists and others
not yet convicted.
That I believe the record shows, as a result of these hearings.
Mr. ScHERER. There is no question about it.
Mr. Doyle. That is what we are getting at in these hearings.
We believe your American Congress is entitled to know who is
lobbying Congress.
Mr. Scherer. And the people who contribute funds to these front
organization, not only to the Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born but to these front organizations set up by the Committee for
Production of Foreign Born. The people who contribute to them,
w^ho join them unwittingly, have a right to know where their funds
are going, who actually controls that committee and who actually
sets it up.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. WiRiN. Could we be excused now while you engage in this dis-
cussion ? You are not asking any questions.
Mr. Arens. Now, counsel, you were forcibly ejected yesterday. We
hope we haven't set a precedent whereby you will have to be forcibly
ejected today.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6829
Mr.WiRiN. I won't reply.
Mr. Doyle. I would suggest this : I realize we are not asking ques-
tions at this second, but the purpose of this sort of a discussion by
members of the committee, Mr. Wirin, is manifestly so our colleagues
in Congress, when they read this report, wnll get the benefit of our
present thinking and opinions based upon the evidence here.
In other words, we are deliberately giving our colleagues, Mr.
Wirin, back in Washington, no matter what State they come from —
our present thinking right here in the hearing room so that all Mem-
bers of Congress will have the benefit of our present thinking. That
is our habit. That is our practice. And you are entitled to know
that is what we are doing.
Now one thing more.
I want to go this far, and I have not discussed this with my col-
leagues here.
The Communist Party, under legal procedures, is entitled to lobby
Congress just the same as any other group.
Let's make it clear. We don't object to anyone lobbying Congress
providing they disclose their true identity. That is the right of Amer-
ican citizens, no matter who they are, and we uphold that right.
Mr. ScHERER. Communists should lobby as Communists.
Mr. Doyle. Certainly.
Mr. ScHERER. And not pretend to be something else.
Mr. DoYLE. And I have frequently said I will fight for the right of
even a Communist to speak what he wishes and preach what he wishes
to preach and pray the way he wants and write the way he wants pro-
vided he does it within the four corners of the Constitution.
Mr. Wirin. May I
Mr. DoYLE. No, Mr. Wirin, please.
But here is a concrete case where in the next Congress, beginning
January, we would have been flooded with petitions and what not
from 'the Los Angeles Committee of the Foreign Born against these
four security statutes had it not been disclosed here that it is controlled
and financed and its bank accounts are controlled by convicted and
known Communists. That is what we are learning here in these
hearings.
Mr. ScHERER. Not only will we be lobbied and flooded with- litera-
ture from the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born but we will
be flooded by how many? One hundred eighty front organizations
which have already been set up ?
Mr. Arens. This record reflects, Mr. Chairman, to the certain
knowledge of this committee, from this series of hearings, 180 or-
ganizations created by the Communist conspiracy in America solely
and exclusively to destroy the security provisions of the Walter-Mc-
Carran Act. In addition to that, countless organizations have been
created for the purpose of destroying other security laws.
Mr. Porter. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DoYLE. Let's go ahead, please.
Mr. Porter. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ?
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that concludes the staflP interro-
gation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. I will recognize you. What is your question ?
6830 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Porter. I wanted to ask whether it is the view of the commit-
tee that it is unwilling or fearful of considering legislation on its
merits.
Mr. Doyle. No, now you know that is not a fair question. You
know we consider legislation on its merits. But we want to Imow who
is petitioning us on the merits.
Mr. Portp:r. Why ? Aren't the merits enough ?
Mr. Arens. You make your speech tonight to the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. If you want to testify
before this committee, submit yourself to an oath.
Mr. Doyle. The Communist Party is known as a subversivi> group,
dominated by subversives, dominated by those who are in opposition
to our constitutional form of government, and dominated by the
Soviet Communist Party. We recognize legislation on its merits, but
we also expect patriotic Americans who present arguments on the
merits to disclose their true identities — whether or not they are agents
of the Soviet Union. That is what your American Communists are
not doing.
And yesterday and the day before I didn't hear a single word from
a Communist iii that chair who objected to the butchering by the
Soviet Communists of those Hungarians. Not one of them. And
we gave every Communist in that chair a chance.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. A chance to protest the butchering of those Hungarians
by the Soviet Union. And not one of them took the chance. They
took the fifth amendment.
Mrs. KusNiTZ. Mr. Chairman^ — —
Mr. Doyle. That made a lasting impression on me I won't forget.
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Doyle. We didn't hesitate to speak out against the butchering
of those Hungarians, but the Communists didn't take the chance I
gave them and counsel gave them to speak out against it.
Proceed, please.
Mr. WiRiN. She wants to make a statement about Hungarian Com-
munists. Do you want to hear it ?
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Scherer. She has refused to answer. She has refused to answer
every other question of this committee, and taken the fifth amendment.
She has refused to produce the records.
I am not going to listen to a speech. I ask that the witness be
excused.
Mr. Velde. I am going to protest as we did yesterday any further
statements by counsel.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. This witness has refused to recognize
the subpena of the United States Congress to produce the documents.
Mr. Scherer. I am not going to listen to any speech. She hasn't
answered one question.
Mr. Doyle. She is clearly in contempt.
Mr. Scherer. Oh, yes. We'll take care of tliat.
Mr. Doyle. We want the record to show right here that we recognize
she is in contempt. We will take steps accordingly.
Mr. Scherer. The next witness.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6831
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, will be Marguerite
Robinson.
Mrs. KusNiTz. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Doyle. You have been excused.
Mr. Arens. Marguerite Robinson, kindly come forward.
Mr. WiRiN. Don't you want to hear it ?
Mr. Arexs. You make your speech tonight, too, to the Los Angeles
Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. WiRiN. What did you say ? I didn't hear you.
Mr. Arens. Marguerite Robinson, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Robinson. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE ROBINSON, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, DANIEL G. MARSHALL
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Robinson. My name is Marguerite Robinson, Los Angeles,
oflBce worker.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly repeat your answer ?
Mrs. Robinson. Marguerite Robinson, Los Angeles, office worker.
]Mi\ Arens. Your residence, please.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Robinson. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer. That is a reasonable question.
Mrs. Robinson. Mr. Chairman
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Robinson. Mr. Chairman, you know and I know that, un-
fortunately, in Los Angeles, notwithstanding the Constitution, I am
not as a Negro absolutely free to live where I choose without difficulty
or without sometimes violence. For that reason I should like to de-
cline to answer this question under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. Unfortunately, this committee, from Washington,
finds it necessary to return to Los Angeles to investigate and expose
the actions of the Communist Party controlling lobby groups in
Congress against the antisubversive bills. We do not want to em-
barrass anyone, but we want the facts and we want the truth. We
want to know with whom we are dealing when they petition the
Congress.
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Robinson. I refuse to answer this question by using my rights
under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Does the record reflect a direction by the chairman?
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; it does.
Mr. Arens. Now your occupation ?
(Tlie witness confers with her counsel.)
6832 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Robinson. I am an office worker.
Mr. Arens. "WTiere?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Robinson. I decline to answer under my rights under the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer.
Mrs. Robinson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I want to be sure of your name here as part of your
identity. You have responded to the name Marguerite Robinson. Is
that your married name and/or maiden name ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Robinson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. We are entitled
to know your identity, know who you are.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Robinson. I decline for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Our records reflect Marguerite Robinson Gibson. Can
you help us on that ?
Mrs. Robinson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, Mrs. Robinson.
Mrs. Robinson. I decline to answer.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr, Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs. Robinson ?
Mrs. Robinson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
Mrs. Robinson. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Then, Miss or Mrs. Robinson, you are appearing today
in response to a subpena which was served upon you by the House
Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mrs. Robinson. I am not here voluntarily. The answer is "Yes."
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Robinson, Yes ; I am.
Mr, Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr, Marshall. Daniel. G. Marshall, Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Witness, do you know a person by the name of Anita
Schneider ?
Mrs. Robinson. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Anita Schneider, in the course of these hearings, testi-
fied under oath that while she was an undercover agent for the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation she knew you as a Communist. Was
she lyinof or was she telling the truth ?
Mrs. Robinson. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. AYlieeler, of our staff, is going to display to you a
number of exhibits. We would take the time to interrogate you at
length with reference to each one, but we have considerable subject
matter to cover and our time is limited.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6833
These exhibits are from the Daily People's "World, in which you are
identified as executive director of the Civil Eights Congi'ess.
Kindly look at these exhibits, if you please, and see if you will not
serve your Government by verifying the authenticity of the designa-
tion.
(Document marked "Exhibit Nos. 543a-e," see appendix, pp. 8071-
8075.)
( Documents handed to counsel for the witness.)
Mr. Arens. I want the record to reflect that 1 should have said the
Los Angeles chapter of the Civil Rights Congress.
Mr. Marshall. May I address the chairman?
Mr. Doyle. Through your witness, Mr. Marshall.
Mr. Marshall. I can't address the chair through my witness in the
matter I want to take up.
Mr. Doyle. You know what the rule of the committee is, Mr. Mar-
shall.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RoBiNSox. My counsel advises me that he won't be able to ad-
vise me as to how to answer this question until he has had an oppor-
tunity to read the documents.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
now be ordered and directed to answer the question. The documents
have been displayed to her. The documents consist, as is quite evi-
dent, of a series of articles in Communist jjublications, with her photo-
graph, with reference to a number of meetings, conferences, under the
auspices of the Los Angeles branch of thg Civil Rights Congress, in
which she is identified as the executive director.
She can look at those in the course of 30 seconds and either affirm
or deny the authenticitv of those documents.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Mrs. Robinson, to answer the question.
Mrs. RoBixsox. My lawyer says in order to advise me properly he
has to read the documents. It would take him about an hour to do
this.
Mr. Doyle. Would you please take the documents and look at them
yourself for a minute.
Mr. Arens. I believe the record reflects that direction, Mr. Chair-
man : does it not ? She has been ordered and directed to answer the
question. In view of the fact she will not answer the question, I re-
spectfully suggest we proceed to another question.
Mr. Scherer. Let the record show before you proceed : she has not
even looked at the documents, and has refused to look at the documents.
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you now a signature
card for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This signature card shows that the account of the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, on the date given, was formerly
the account of the Civil Rights Congress of Los Angeles.
Kindly look at this signature card and tell this committee whether
or not the (^ivil Rights Congress was the predecessor organization to
the account of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born at the California Bank in Los Angeles, Calif.
(Document mai-kod "'Exhibit No. 544a,'' retained in committee files.)
( Document handed to counsel for the witness.)
6834 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, I wish to address the committee
■with respect to the batch of documents which has just been removed
from the witness table by Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Marshall, you know the rules of the committee.
Mr, Marshall. May I address the committee in writing;?
INIr. Doyle. I am directing the witness to answer the question. Take
all the time you want to advise your client, Mr. Marshall, but
Mr. Marshall. That is what I wanted to do with those exhibits.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question, Witness,
please ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\frs. RoBiMSON. I decline to answer the question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Are j^ou now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Robinson. I again decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Wheeler. That is the staff interrogation, Mr. Marshall.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I resj^ectfully suggest that if, as, and
when the witness, who has just left the witness stand. Marguerite
Kobinson, who is also identified in our record as Marguerite Robin-
son Gibson, signs a voucher, that that part of the voucher bearing her
signature be incorporated in the body of the record.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 54:4b," see appendix, p. 8076.)
Mr. Doyle. So ordered.
Refen-ing to this bank account. Counsel, the committee are look-
ing at it. Apropos of your statement that the face of the card
shows that this account in the name of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born shows on the face of the card "Formerly
with Civil Rights Congress, November 6, 1950" but also is typed
across tlie face of the card "Superseded by card dated 2-15-51," it
would appear that the moneys from the Civil Rights Congress, if
there were any at that date, Avere transferred in 1051 to this account
in the name of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. So apparently there is another group that is
IVIr. Arens. The record on a ])receding witness, Mr. Chairman,
reflects the subsequent developments. We used those with a previous
witness.
Mr. Doyle. I see.
]\Ir. Arens. This Avitness was here for the purpose of establishing
the backoround of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born and its intimate relationship as a successor organization
to the Civil Rights Congress.
You recall that Mrs. Schneider testified, or one of the witnesses
testified — I believe it was Mrs. Schneider — to the effect that the I^s
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born grew out of the
Civil Rights Congress here, and indeed at one time was a subcom-
mittee of the Civil Rights Congress. So this card helps establish
that fact.
Mr. Doyle. You are going to show those records. Those records
have already been introduced as a part of the record of this committee.
In view of my statement to Mrs. Chernin when she was here on the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6835
stand, here is the bank signature card apparently authorizing the
signature to the checks which we have referred to and identified by
her in 1956 and previous, and she is president. She signed this as
president of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
(See exhibit No. 514, appendix, p. 8007.)
Mr. ScHERER. She was promoted after she was convicted.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. This is on September 15, 1955, she was
president of this committee. That is a convenient way to handle
money. We might consider whether or not Congress ought to con-
sider legislation as to how far convicted Communists can go before
the public and solicit money under disguise. It seems terrible to have
the public milked by Communists, convicted and proven Communists
in a court of law.
It would seem it ought to be a subject for consideration for legis-
lation. The public apparently needs protection against itself or
against the subversive Communists.
Mr. ScHERER. This last one is just a little over a year ago — Sep-
tember 1955.
Mr. Arens. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, the possibility also
of the committee considering recommendations to have more stringent
provisions of the tax laws whereby organizations of this character
could not have tax exemption.
I am under the impression, although I am not an expert in the field
of tax law, that the general policy is to prohibit tax exemption as
an eleemosynary organization to organizations that are purely and
clearly Communist controlled.
I would speculate, although I do not know, that this organization
here has at least tried to get tax exemption as a charitable organ-
ization.
Mr. Doyle. Let's look into that thoroughly. And certainly any
organization that is proved to be Communist controlled or Commu-
nist financed should not get any tax exemption in order to spend
more money to defeat the constitutional form of government. Why
should we give them a tax credit and let them put that money into
their treasury to spend it unconstitutionally and illegally ?
Mr. Arens. I would also suggest, Mr. Chairman, the possibility of
considering legislation which would preclude tax exemption for
successor organizations or organizations dominated by an organiza-
tion that is ]3rincipal]y controlled by the Communist Party, because
this record shows that this organization, the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, has, in turn, created other organiza-
tions which have solicited funds and have expended funds.
And we would speculate here, on the basis of extensive experience,
that it is highly probable the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign liorn, to protect itself, would probably now dissolve in
view of this exposure, and create some new organization, parent or-
ganization to take over the funds and activities of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the numerous collateral
subsidiary organizations.
Mr. Sciieuer. Just before we go on, could I ask our west-coavSt in-
vestigator, Mr. Wheeler — I see some other names tliat appear on the
6836 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
signature cards in addition to Rose Chernin, et cetera, Josephine
Yanez,
Mr. Whekler. She testified yesterday.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the one who testified. She has been identi-
fied as a Communist.
What about Sylvia Young ? Has she testified ?
Mr. Wheeler. She was not subpenaed.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliat about Mary Hyun ?
Mr. Arens. On that point may I say, Mr. Scherer, that our problem
in coming to Los Angeles was principally to pick and choose whom
we wanted to subpena because there were so many identified with this
and the collateral organizations that, had we done more than scratched
the surface, we would have been here for a month in hearings.
IMr. Scherer. Has Sylvia Young been the subject of any testimony
before this committee previously ?
Mr. Wheeler. She is a subject of investigation.
Mr. Scherer. What about Mary Hyun, H-y-u-n? Has she been
before this committee ?
Mr. Wheeler. No, she has not.
Mr. Scherer. Delphine Murphy Smith has. She is a Communist.
Mr. Wheeler. She was the first witness.
Mr. Scherer. Yes. She is a Communist.
Lillian Doran.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, may I supplement what I said so that
Mr. Scherer
Mr. Scherer. I am not critical.
Mr. Arens. I am certain that the Congressman isn't critical, but I
want to make this statement for this record and for the enlightenment
of the distinguished Congressman from Ohio.
We have rundowns and information on approximately 150 persons
who can be identified as Communists connected with the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. That one organization.
In addition to that, we know and have seen on this record numerous
organizations that are affiliates controlled by the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
So I say we had the problem of just picking a sampling here.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't want any of my questions to indicate that I
might have in mind a criticism of the staff because Mr. Wheeler is
one of the best in the country, if not the best.
Mr. Doyle. May I suggest that it would seem to me that if I were
a sponsor of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, now that this record is revealed showing the bank account in
control of convicted or proven Communists, I would get off the
sponsorship.
Mr. Scherer. Unless you were a Communist.
Mr. Doyle. Well, unless I wanted to help the Communist cause
against the internal security of my country.
And I think now, in view of this public record which can't be con-
troverted— here it is — that if I were a member of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, I think I would get off.
I am dead sure I w^ould get out of that committee.
Mr. Scherer. Unless you were a Communist.
j\Ir. Doyle. Yes, or want<^d to help their cause.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6837
And I say that because I have no hesitation in stating that I can
make no allowance for any person claiming to be a patriotic Ameri-
can citizen who is doing anything to help the Communist cause di-
rectly or indirectly.
Mr. xVrexs. Are you ready for the next witness, Mr. Chairman?
jSIr. Doylf:. Yes, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Irene Terrazas, T-e-r-r-a-z-a-s.
Mr. DoTLE. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly SAvear to tell the truth, the wliole truth, and noth-
ing but the trull, so help you God ?
Mrs. Terrazas. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. IRENE TERRAZAS, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ROSE S. ROSENBERG
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Terrazas. Irene Terrazas. 5303 Telford Street, Los Angeles.
Housewife.
Mr. Areks. Is it Miss or Mrs.?
Mrs. Terrazas. Mrs.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Terrazas, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
Mrs. Terrazas. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Terrazas. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg, b-e-r-g.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Terrazas, we are going to display to you a signa-
ture card on the California Bank of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. This signature card bears your signa-
ture, Irene Terrazas, as one of the officials of the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 5I5a," see appendix, p. 8077.)
Kindly look at this card, if you please, and see if you can be good
enough to verify its authenticity.
And while she is looking at it, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest
that if, as, and when this witness signs a pay voucher, her signature
from that voucher be incorporated in the record, in the body of the
record.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 545b," see appendix, p. 8078.)
Mr. DoYi,E. It is so ordered.
(The witness examines documents.)
Mrs. Terrazas. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. IMrs. Terrazas, are you now a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mrs. Terrazas. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a repro-
duction, a photographic reproduction, of a letterhead of the Los Ange-
85333— 57— pt. 1 45
6838 COMMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
les Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, bearing your signature
as immigration aid director of that organization.
Please look at this exhibit and see if you will be good enough to
verify its authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 5-16," see appendix, p. 8079.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Terrazas. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we display to you a document which is a paid
advertisement appearing in the Community News Service — "A Pro-
gram for Defending the Foreign Born. How To Nullify and Repeal
the Walter-McCarran Act."
This paid advertisement requests pledges and donations. It also
has certain language here in Mexican, the Mexican language — Mexi-
can or Spanish language. It tells about circulating petitions and
about a $20,000 fund drive.
Kindly look at this document and tell this committee if you are
the Irene Terrazas who is identified in the document as immigration
director of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 547," see appendix, p. 8080.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Terrazas. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the stalT interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions ?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Doyli:. The witness is excused.
Mr. DoYLE. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Wliereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent : Representatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer. )
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle, Velde, and
Scherer. )
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order.
Let the record show that the full membership of the subcommittee
is present.
^^Hio is your first witness, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Peter Hyun, H-y-u-n.
Mr. Doyle. Mr, Peter Hyun.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Hyun. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF PETER HYUN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Hyun. Now?
Mr. Arens. Yes, please.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6839
Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occupation.
Mr. H-iTJN. My name is Peter Hyun, H-y-u-n. I reside at 1640
North Dillon Street, Los Angeles.
Mr. Akens. Your occupation ?
Mr. Hyux. Mr. Chairman, I would like to answer that question in
the followin^T^ manner :
There is no question in my mind that that question directed at me,
though on the surface may appear ordinary and innocent, I believe
will deal with and in the area of my association and my pursuits.
And I further believe that my experiences in the last 2 days in witness-
ing the proceedings in this committee put to test some of the funda-
mental principles and values by which and with which I have tried
to live all my adult life.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead, and, if you are going to plead your con-
stitutional privilege, plead it if that is your conclusion, and we will be
glad to listen to those two reasons that are not constitutional. But
hurry along, Petei'.
iSIr. Hytjn. I just wanted to add this, Mr. Chairman, that the test,
I believe, is to determine whether the values, as secured in the Consti-
tution and our Bill of Rights, are to apply for some of the people for
some of the time or to apply to all of the people all the time.
Mr. Doyle. You understand my instruction. You have had your
few minutes to make your preliminary remarks. Now go ahead
please
2.[r. Hyun. Thank you very much, Mr, Chairman.
For these reasons and for other reasons which I have no time to
express at this time, I refuse to answer that question under all the
rights guaranteed to me under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,
particularly under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Hyun. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Hyun, Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter, Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Anita Schneider?
Mr. Hyun. I do not wish to testify in any areas of association of
any kind, and I refuse to answer that question under the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Are you in direct personal contact with Mao, the Com-
numist leader in Red China ? Or have you been ?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. There is notliing ridiculous about that
question. It is very serious and it was asked because it is serious,
Mr, Arens. It was asked also, Mr. Chairman, because there is sworn
testimony before this committee that this witness is or has been — I
should put it that way — has been in personal contact with Mao Tse-
tung, and that tliis witness is using Mao's techniques in the United
States.
Now would you kindly answer the question ?
Mr. Hyun. Before answering that question, I would like to take
just 1 minute in expressing my opinion, if I may.
0840 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. No, no. Not your opinion. Give your answer. We
are not interested in your opinion. We are not having you here be-
cause you may differ with us in your opinion, or vice-versa.
Mr. Hyun. I am very proud to chiim my privilege granted me under
the Constitution, particuhirly under the first and fifth amendments,
in refusing this particuhir question.
Mr. Arens. Now were you a former
Mr. ScHERER. You are proud, did you say ?
Mr. Hyun. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. SciiERER. Of your connections that he referred to ?
Mr. Hyun. I refer to the record as I stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you formerly United States military adviser to
the United States military government in South Korea ?
Mr. Hyun. This also deals with my associations, my pursuits, and
I refuse to answer that question under the same grounds.
ISIr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. I direct you to answer that question, Mr. Hyun.
Mr. Hyun. I offer you the same answer under the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked for the United States Govern-
ment ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Is this a brother to that other fellow we had on the
stand the other day ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
JMr. Scherer. Two of a kind.
Mr. Arens. A bit more than two.
Mr. Scherer. I've got one here I want to ask him about — Mary.
Mr. Arens. There is one in North Korea now of this clique. Please
answer the question.
Mr. Hyun. Please repeat that question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked for the United States Govern-
ment ?
Mr. Hyun. Am I working ?
Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked for the United States Govern-
ment? Ever been employed by the United States Government?
Mr. Hyun. I offer you the same question, the same reasons stated.
The same answer, please.
Mr. Arens. I would like to read you a little excerpt from the Com-
munist Daily People's World, and see if this pride which you have
been alluding to still looms so large in your breast. It is an article
datelined Ix)S Angeles from the Communist Daily People's World,
Wednesday, July 5, 1950, with reference to a crowd assembling de-
manding immediate withdrawal of the United States forces from
Korea.
I am paraphrasing just a little bit so I won't have to read the entire
article :
Earlier the crowd heard —
now I pick up the direct quotation —
heard Peter Hyun, former editor of the Korean Independence, fix the blame for
the Korea situation.
Hyun, former adviser to the United States military government in South
Korea, told the audience that "In the eyes of the Korean people there is no
question as to who is the aggressor.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6841
"From its inception, the Soutli Korean Government committed aggression
against the Korean people's democratic desires. Today when the combined
armed forces of the United States are being rushed and put into action against
the entire Korean people, there can be no question of who the real aggressor is."
He declared United States action was "an attempt to accelerate the cold war,
without even hiding behind a pretext for the real motives of United States policy,
which President Truman himself enunciated — the use of force to suppress the
people in Korea, the people of Vietnam, the Philippines and Formosa."
Mr. ScHERER. The people of the Philippines? I thought we just
gave them their independence.
Mr. Arens. Apparently that is the Huk war.
Now, Mr. Hyun, in view of your self-endowment of pride in the
Constitution and pride in this Nation, tell this committee while you
are under oath whether or not you were the person who made the
statements which I have just read to you.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 548," see appendix, pp. 8081, 8082.)
Mr. Hyun. The statement just read refers to opinions.
I don't believe that the counsel representing this congressional com-
mittee has a right to invade any area of personal opinion.
Mr. Arens. You just now expressed an opinion to us. You said
you didn't believe certain things.
Mr. Porter. Just a minute. I ask that the witness be allowed to
jfinish his answer.
Mr. Arexs. We are only asking you a statement of fact. Did you
make these statements which I have just read to you ?
Ml-. Hyux. I am stating, in my opinion, it is a fact thnt the state-
ment you read deals with opinions.
Mr. Aff.ns. Tell us wliether or not, as a fact, you made this state-
ment.
Mr. Porter. I ask the protection of the committee.
Mr. Arexs. Coun?el, I hope we are not going to have any further
trouble with you.
]\rr. Wit}iess. did voii make these statements?
]\fr. Porter. I ask that tlie witne-s be allowed to make his answer.
Mr. Arexs. You know your sole and exclusive prerogative is to ad-
vise Comrade Hyun what to do here, and not to advise this committee
or to have any more outbursts.
Mr. PoRTT'iR. Mr. Chairman. I ask that counsel be admonislied (o
be courteous to the witness and to counsel.
Mr. Arexs. I suggest that Comrade Porter be admonished that if
we have further outbursts of this kind he will be removed from the
room.
Ml-. Porter. May I make a statement as to tlie canons of profes-
sional ethics as a matter of personal privilege ?
Mr. Doyle. I nm familiar with those. I have ])racticcd law more
tluin you have.
Mr. Porter. Counsel should be advised to observe them as counsel
for tlie witnesses under your rules.
Mr. Arexs. I am surprised that Mr. Porter shoidd talk of tlie canons
oi^ ethics, a member of the Communist conspiracy that has no ethics
at all.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Hyun, you understand the question.
Mr. Hyux. I was answering the question, Mv. Chairman.
6842 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. Then answer it and let's proceed.
Mr. Hytjn. I would like to ask this one question of the cluiirinan.
That is, that I have watched very earnestly and very carefully all
of the proceedings. And the rules of this committee was cited by
the chairman and the counsel many times. I would like to know at
this time if there is any i^rovision in the rules as to the conduct of the
counsel.
Mr. Aiu'.xs. Don't try to turn these proceed iiii>s on counsel.
I will take an oath any day in the year I am not a Communist.
Mr. ScHERER. He does not have any connection with the Red gov-
ernment of China either.
Mr. DoTLE. Just a minute, Mi-. Hyun.
It is so customary for that sort of a question to be thrown at me
under certain conditions that I am not surprised to have it from
you, sir.
But, to me, the counsel is askin<; you a question of fact. He is not
asking your opinion. He asked you whether or not you made those
statements. That is what he is asking you. That is a question of
fact. It is not a question of your opinion. It is a question of whether
or not you made those statements as printed in that paper.
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. That is a question of fact, in my judgment. And I
direct you to answer.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Hyun. And, as I stated, because of the character of the ques-
tion, I refuse to answer that question under the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest he be ordered and directed to
answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. To make it clear, I am directing you to answer the
question.
Mr. Hyun. The same answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Hyun, we are going to display to you a num-
ber of exhibits of the Communist Daily People's World and other
exhibits in which you are identified as executive secretary of the
Southern California Peace Crusade, during the time that our boys
were being shot by the Communists in Korea with their hands tied be-
hind their backs.
Peter Hyun, executive secretary of the Southern California Peace
Crusade, who was making various speeches, causing to be passed
various resolutions, all to create sentiment for the withdrawal of the
United States from Korea, and to neutralize the activities of this
Nation.
Kindly look at these exhibits as they are being displayed to you,
and see if you will not while you are under oath
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 549a-e," see appendix, pp. 8082,
8083.)
Mr. Scherer. Southern California Peace Crusade?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. SciiERER. That is the organization that met at Fritchman's
church ; didn't it ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6843
Kindly tell us while you are under oath now and in the aura of
patriotism which you have just surrounded yourself in the opening
statement, whether or not you betrayed your country by being execu-
tive secretary of this organization designed to subvert the security
of tliis great Nation.
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Hyun. Mr. Chairman, the counsel is putting words in my
mouth which I didn't
Mr. Arens. Then you deny them, sir, while you are under oath?
Mr. Porter. Mr. Chairman, I ask that counsel be admonished to
exhibit courtesy to the witness.
Mr. Arens. I suggest counsel be admonished that if we have one
more outburst he will be forcibly ejected from this room.
Mr. Porter. Every outburst has come from Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel be admonished if
he violates the rules of this committee he will be forcibly ejected from
this room.
Mr. Doyle. Let's do that. Let's observe strictly the rules so we can
save the time of everyone concerned.
Mr. Porter. May the rules apply equally to both counsel ?
Mr. Doyle. They apply to all of us.
Mr. Porter. Thank you.
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. PIyux. I don't feel I am being put in a fair position for a fair
hearing here, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. You are being asked a question of fact as I see it-
Mr. PIyun. But being asked in such a way there is a conclusion at-
tached to the question. There is condemnation attached to the question.
Mr. Arexs. Let's change the question.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute. Was there anything w^rong with the
conclusion that counsel reached in his question ?
Mr. Hyun. I didn't say they are right or wrong, but it is an unfair
manner of presenting questions.
Mr. Scherer. All right. Was there anything wrong in the conclu-
sions? Did he make a misstatement in his conclusions about you?
Mr. Hyun. Do you want me to answer that question first, Congress-
man Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes ; that question first.
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer that question under the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Scherer. Then don't object to his conclusions.
Mr. Arens. For the moment may we change the question to say
were you executive secretary of this innocent little organization, this
patriotic organization, this organization for the uplift of humanity,
the Southern C-alifornia Peace Crusade?
Mr. Hyun. I will refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds I stated before.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Hyun, Mr. Wheeler is going to display to
you a number of documents showing your identity with the Los
Aneeles Committer for Protection of Foreign P>orn.
6844 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
JKindly look at these documents on some of which your signature
appears, or at least on all of which your name appears as a sponsor
of the Los Angeles Connnittee for l*rotection of Foreign Born, and
verify j'our participation in this organization as a patriot of this
Nation.
(See exhibit 433, appendix, p. 7858.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. You see, as we sit here now, it becomes more and more
apparent why these Communists are so vitally interested in an-
nihilating or striking from the McCarran-W alter Act the security
provisions of that act. It is for the purpose of saving their own necks.
They want to make it more difficult to deport them, and easier for
these Communists to get into the country. That is their sole ob-
jective.
Mr. Arens. Curiously enougli, too, wliile he is looking at those,
his brothers life was saved by the Walter-McCarran Act because
under the Walter-McCarran Act, for the first time in history, the
Congress enacted provisions that one couldn't be deported to a coun-
try in which he would be physically persecuted.
The testimony is clear tliat his brother, who is likewise a Com-
munist, was up for deportation. If he had been deported to South
Korea he would have been sliot.
Mr. Porter. Counsel's statement of the law is wrong as usual.
Mr. Arens. Counsel's statement of the law is not wrong.
"Would you kindly answer the question ?
Mr. Hyun. In regard to which papers that you showed me, counsel ?
Mr. Arens. The various papers we showed you connecting you with
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Hyun. This deals with association. I refuse to answer on
the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. How about the documents which were displayed to
you with reference to your participation as executive director of that
peace crusade ?
Mr. Hyun. Same answer ; same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you still another document
from the Communist Dail}^ People's World.
Peter Hyun of the Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Pol-
icy— according to this is going to discuss the Korean people and their
stoi-y at the Progressive Forvim.
Kindly look at that document and tell us whether you are tlie Peter
Hyun who was going to discuss the Korean people and their story.
(See exhibit No. 5-i9e, appendix, p. 8083.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. Again this deals with my association and opinions. I
refuse on the same grounds, refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, we have two documents bearing the
signature of Peter Hyun; one as executive director; and the other
as president of the California Peace Crusade.
Again we have a situation where an employee and an official are
interchanged here.
Kindly look at these two documents: One the signature card on the
California Bank for the [Southern] California Peace Crusade, with
Peter Hyun's signature appearing as president; and, the other, a
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6845
letterhead of the [Southern] California Peace Crusade, with Peter
Hyun, executive director.
Kindly look at those two documents and see if you will kindly be
good enough to tell this committee if you are the Peter Hyun.
fThe witness examines documents.)
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 550a, b," see appendix, pp. 8084,
8085.)
Mr. Hyun. The same answer ; same grounds.
Mr. Arens. If, as and when this witness signs a voucher, his signa-
ture be incorporated from that voucher in the body of the record for
comparison of signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit 'No. 550c," see appendix, p. 8086.)
Mr. Doyle. It will be so ordered.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the stall' interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. ScHERER. Your sister is Alice Hyuii ; isn't slie ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. I don't see what pertinence this particular (question
would have on the subject of investigation here. I refuse to answer
this question under the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. She is in North Korea now ; is she not?
Mr. Hyun. I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. When was the last time you had contact with her?
]Mr. Hyun. I refuse on the same grounds.
Mr. SciiERER. And you are the brotlier of David Hyun ?
Mr. Hyun. Same answer.
Mr. ScHERER. The man to whom counsel just referred a few minutes
ago?
Mr. Hyun. Same answer. Same grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. Tell us who Mary H. Hyun is.
Mr. Hyun. I still maintain that my pride, despite the admonition
of counsel for upholding and maintaining such pride — I do not care
to testify on any persons, or any activities, any opinions dealing with
anyone to this committee. I must refuse on the same grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. You know that Mary Hyun is your sister-in-law ; is
she not ? And she is one of the officers of the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. You know that; don't you?
Mr. Hyun. I refuse on the same grounds, that I do not care to deal
with any question of association or opinion, and I claim my privilege
under the first and fifth amendments in refusing to answer that
question.
Mr. SciiERER. Do you know that she had authority to dispense funds
of that organization ?
Mr. Hyun. The same answer on the same grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. Is she a member of the Communist Party, too?
Mr. Hyun. Same answer on the same grounds.
Mr. SciiERER. Where were you born, Witness ?
Mr. Hyun. I don't see what pertinence tliat question would have
at the present hearing. I refuse to answer that question on all of the
privileges I have under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, par-
ticularly under the first and fiftli amendments.
Mr, SciiERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
6846 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr, Doyle. I feel that is an appropriate question. I direct you to
answer that question, Mr. Hyun.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I don't see how it can possibly incriminate you if you
were born in Korea.
Mr. Hyun. I heard Congressman Scherer, as well as the counsel,
yesterday and the day before, about waiving the right and opening
the door when answering any innocent or innocuous questions. And
I don't want to place myself in such jeopardy. I don't wash to waive
any of my rights under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And
I do not see any pertinence to this question to the matter at hand, and
I refuse therefore to answer this question, on the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is that you couldn't possibly incriminate
yourself by answering that question because you were born in Hawaii.
And by reason of the fact you are born in Hawaii, you are a citizen
of the United States, unfortunately. But you are.
Mr. Hyun. The very fact that
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyun. The fact that the Congressman had the information
and insists on asking such a question leads me to fear this is a method
of entrapment. Therefore, I refuse to answer that question under
the privileges granted to me
Mr. Scherer. It merely demonstrates the fact that you improperly
invoked the fifth amendment and didn't invoke it in good faith. How
could it possibly incriminate you to say that you were born in Hawaii
and are, therefore, a native citizen of the United States ? It just shows
the ridiculousness of it.
Mr. Doyle. I w^ish to say this, Mr. Hyun, that I think I remember
when you appeared before another committee of which I was a mem-
ber. And also your brother, as I recall it.
I was in Korea a week, as you know, during the hostilities. I
know a good deal about you and your brother and your family that
you don't know I know. When I was over there during the hostilities
I was up fairly close to the lines and was handed some of the shrapnel
that was shot at me while I was there. It was handed me later on by
General Wainwright, whose guest I was. I want to say to you
that I have read some of the quotations alluding to you in the Com-
munist People's World and so forth, and, if you made those state-
ments as they are quoted there, they certainly weakened the position
of the United Nations and the American troops in Korea and in the
esteem of the American people.
Mr. Scherer. It goes further than that, Mr. Chairman. That is
giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war, which is treason.
Mr. Porter. Congressman Scherer is w^rong on the law also.
Mr. Hyun. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask for an opportunity
of an open forum where you and I or anyone else would debate the
question of our foreign policy.
Mr. Arens. You will have it this evening before the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in their meeting.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6847
Mr. Doyle. We are concerned here this morning with the policy
of the Communist Party through fake committees undertaking to
subvert anti-Communist legislation in Congress. And I just want
to reaffirm that if you made those statements you certainly helped the
enemy, in my judgment.
Mr. Hyun. I said I would like an opportunity where we could
debate our foreign policy.
Mr. Arens. You will do that this evening when the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born has: its convention here in Los
Ajigeles, beginning this evening. I w^ould suggest you might see if
you can address that group.
Are you now or have you e^^^er been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Hyun. I offer you the same answer for the reasons I stated
throughout this hearing.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you ever been an agent of the Communist
conspiracy and the Russian Government?
Mr. Hyun. Same answer ; same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Let me just admonish you this way, Peter Hyun: It
would seem to me that if you made those statements which you are
quoted as saying in your debates on foreign policy, see if you can't
shape your language so that a schoolchild would be able to read it
and understand that you were not condemning the United States of
America in the world! Try that. Try to reshaj^e your language so
that you help the United States of America in foreign countries in-
stead of hurting them.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHKRER. Mr. Chairman, I have no idea that he would ever
do that.
Mr. Porter. Is Mr. Hyun excused ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Thank you.
Who is your next witness, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arens. Lillian Doran. Kindly come forward.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and* noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. DoRAN. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN DORAN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, JOHN W. PORTER
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. DoRAN. My name is Lillian Doran, 647 West 102d Street.
At present — housewife.
Mr. Arens. Are you Miss or Mrs. ?
Mrs. DoRAN. Mrs.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Doran, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
Mr. DoRAN. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Doran. I am.
6848 ■ COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Porter. John W. Porter, Los Angeles.
Mrs. DoRAN. Mr. Chairman, I was not presented with the rules
and regulations of this committee.
Mr. Doyle. You may have two copies now.
Mr. ScHERER. There is one right there on counsel's desk.
Mr. Doyle. But your counsel has had one for 3 or 4 or 5 years. I
assume he has. Here is another copy.
Sirs. DoRAN. Well, it was most interesting to me because I wanted
to ask you a question.
Mr. Arens. Just a moment. Did you rehearse this before you
came in ? Mrs. Schneider, a previous witness, said that all Communists
rehearsed before they testify on how to attack the committee by various
techniques and devices. Was this all rehearsed that you are going to
do now ? Or is this something original ?
Mrs. DoRAN. Mr. Cliairman, I was talking to you. May I ask
you
Mr. Doyle. Ask it briefly.
Mrs. DoRAN. Thank you. I w^ill ask it very briefly or as briefly as
I can. I don't speak briefly because it is hard for me to express myself.
I want to be sure that I am represented by counsel of my choice
and that I am represented adequately with no references to counsel
except by his name, and myself by my name. Now, v.'ould you guaran-
tee that to me '? The reason I asked you for the rules is that I wonder
if this is in the rules of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. You are the second person this morning that has asked.
So I presume there has been a little conference about it out in the hall.
Mrs. DoRAN. That is your presumption.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. That is my presumption.
Mrs. DoRAN. It isn't what I said.
Mr. Doyle. No, but that is my deduction.
Mr. ScHERER. Is he wrong in his deduction ?
Mr. Doyle. Which I think is fair.
Just proceed, and everyone try to be courteous and be cooperative.
Mrs. DoRAN. Thank you.
Mr. Doyle. You be the same, Mrs. Doran.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. DoRAN. Yes, I will.
Mr. Arens. If I understood you a moment ago, you were rather
verbose in your responses to questions. Is that correct ?
Mrs. DoRAisr. Do you want a character analysis, Mr. Arens? Is
that the purpose of your question ?
Mr. Doyle. You are throwing something into the microphone your-
self. That is not responsive. That is unnecessary.
Mrs. DoRAisr. I know, but you said everyone would be courteous.
Mr. Doyle. No. It is sarcastic. Eliminate that and get to tlie
point.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Doran, did you appear before the Federal grand
jury in these parts in the course of the last several years w^th reference
to Communist Party affairs?
Mrs. Doran. You know, in response to this question and from what
I have observed in the last couple of days of a congressional investiga-
tion— which I understand this is — and refreshing mv mind a little bit
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6849
on what the Constitution is and what it protects people from — because
it is for the people, and it was written by people who did not mean
it only for 175 years — ^I think it is that old
Mr. Doyle. Isn't your speech over ? Go ahead and plead the amend-
ments if you are going to. You have had 3 minutes to make your
speech. Please go ahead.
Mrs. DoRAN. It takes me a little longer.
Mr. DoTLE. Go ahead and answer the question. You have made
a good record of making tliis a forum.
Mrs. DoRAN. No — it is your forum, Mr. Chairman; not mine.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mrs. DoRAX. All right, I will. Dean Griswold, the dean of Har-
vard Law School, says
Mr. Doyle. No, no. I didn't authorize you to make a speech.
Mrs. DoRi\N. I can't quote him ?
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mrs. DoRAN. Can I paraphrase him on why I can plead and cite
the first and fifth amendments ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Can't you just tell us whether or not you appeared before the Federal
grand jury ? That is the outstanding question.
]\[r. Porter. Which she was attempting to answer wlien you in-
teriupted.
Mr. Arens. Comrade Porter, you just read the rules on the ethics
before this committee, and content yourself with that. We will
take care of the proceedings here.
Mrs. DoRAN. You said everyone would be courteous. My counsel's
name is Mr, Porter, P-o-r-t-e-r.
Mr. Arens. He has been identified as a comrade. One man was
identified as a doctor of pliilosophy. So we called him doctor. This
man has been identified as a comrade.
Mrs. DoRAN. For the record and in order to protect myself, I refuse
to answer the question, if I can still remember it, by citing the first
and fifth amendments. And I want everyone here to remember that
my counsel's name is Mr. Porter. And I believe that is the way we
address each other in this country.
Mr, Arens. Do you address him in any other capacity any place
else besides in public session ?
Mr. Porter. Just a minute.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
Mr. Porter. I rise to a point of personal privilege, and charge that
counsel is violating
Mr. Arens. I suggest that counsel submit liimself to an oath if he
wants to engage in these proceedings with reference to whether or not
he is a comrade or, else, that he restrain himself and read the canon
of ethics of the American Bar Association here, which, among other
things, set high moral standards for practitioners of the law who are
sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Porter. Counsel has repeatedly violated canon 17
6850 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I show you a photostatic copy of the Communist Daily
Worker of April 14, 1949, in which your photograph appears with this
caption :
Lillian Doran, shown here in Los Angeles jail after being convicted of civil
contempt for refusing to be stool pigeoned at a Federal grand jury witch hunt,
was released last Monday on $500 bail along with eight others.
Kindly look at this photo^^raph and see if the Communist Daily
Worker "was correct in identifying you as one who refused to be a
stool pigeon.
(Document retained in committee files.)
Mr. Porter. Mr. Chairman, counsel's last two questions and his
manner of address are directly violative of canons 17, 18, 26, and 32
of the canons of ethics for the profession which he disgraces
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Porter.
Mr, ScHERER. Wait a minute.
Mr. Porter. Of the American Bar Association canons of ethics.
Mr. Scherer. I move that counsel be removed from the room.
Mr. Velde. I second the motion.
Mr. Porter. Having been attacked by counsel, I claim the right,
as a matter of due process of law, to respond to that attack and to
claim the protection of this committee for a member of the bar
Mr. Velde. I move the question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Porter, there has been a motion made to me as
chairman by Mr. Scherer, and seconded by Mr. Velde, which consti-
tutes a majority of the connnittee, that you be ejected from the room
because you are in violation of the committee's rules.
Mrs. Doran. Excuse me
Mr. DoYLE. Just a minute, madam.
Mr. Porter. The committee's rules do not apply when counsel is
attacked, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. Please restrain yourself.
Mr. Doyle. I am placing the motion before the committee. All
in favor
Mr. Porter. I ask to be heard on the motion, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DoYi.E. This is not a court. You well know that.
Mr. Porter. That is right. And if it v\-ere, the sort of things you
permit couldn't conceivably happen.
Mr. Scherer. Wait a minute.
Mr. Porter. This is why we have courts, so the kind of things this
committee perpetrates on American people cannot happen.
Mr. DoYLE. The kind of thing you perpetrate in some ways should
not happen, Mr. Porter. The motion is carried, and I want to extend
you this courtesy :
Do you want to leave the hearing room or do you want the marshal
to assist you?
Mr. Porter. I need no assistance.
Mrs. Doran. I just want to ask a question before he leaves, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. S(;nERER. We can ask that afterward.
Mrs. Doran. ITow can it be asked afterward? I won't have an
attorney.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 085 1
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Porter, you have lieard the motion.
It is my order that you take advantage of the chairman's courtesy
and leave the room, or you will be ejected. Which do you want?
Mr. Porter. I said 1 was going to leave and I intend to do so.
Mr. Doyle. Let's wait.
Mrs. DoRAN. Leave him alone.
(Whereupon, counsel for the witness Avas escorted from the hearing
room.)
[Applause.]
^Ir. ScHERER. Let^s €lear the room. Clear the room.
Mr. DoYLE. The committee will proceed.
Mr. Arens. Witness, Mr. Appell of this staif is going to lay before
you a bank signature card for the Los Angeles Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, on which your signature appears. He is
also going to display to you certain exhibits, including letterheads of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which
your signature appears as executive secretary of the Los Angeles Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, and similar documents identi-
fying you as an official of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at these documents and tell this committee while you
are under oath whether or not those documents correctly reflect your
signature.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 551a-c,'' see appendix, pp. 8087-
8089.)
Mrs. DoRAN. I will not look at one thing or say one more word until
I have an attorney.
( The committee confers. )
Mr. Sciierer. Mr. Chairman, I move that the witness be excused at
this time subject to further call of the committee, and the subpena be
continued to give her an opportunity to get counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, before that is passed on, may I ask that
the signature of this witness, if, as and when it is affixed to a voucher,
be incorporated in the body of this record for purposes of comparison
of signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 551d," see appendix, p. 8090.)
Mr. Doyle. It will be so ordered.
Your next witness ?
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Ethel
Linn.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand — your right hand.
Mrs. Linn. Pardon me. I'm sorry.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Linn. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MES. ETHEL LINN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROSE S. ROSENBERG
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Linn. My name is — can you hear, sir?
Mr. xVrens. Yes.
Mrs. Linn. My name is Ethel Linn, L-i-n-n. I reside at 8400 West
Fourth Street, Los Angeles 48.
6852 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Are you Miss or Mrs. ?
Mrs. Linn. I am Mrs., sir. And I am not finished. Yoii wanted to
know what my occupation is. I am a housewife, and a mother of two
children, sir.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
Avhich was served upon you by the House Conmiittee on Un-American
Activities?
Mrs. Linn. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel?
Mrs. Linn. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourself.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg, b-e-r-g, of Los Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Linn, do you know a person by the name of Adele
Kronick Silva, S-i-1-v-a ?
Mrs. Linn. Gentlemen and Mr. Chairman, if I am allowed, I know
that you are as anxious as I am to dismiss and go hom.e. This is
Saturday, the day of the Sabbath.
Mr. Doyle. No. We are quite ready to work all day today.
Mrs. Linn. Fine. All right, then, I will work with you. But I
think that we can understand each other very much better if you will
allow me to make a very short, quick — and if you want to take your
watches out and time me, it will take me about 1 minute — to make a
quick little statement so that we understand each other, gentlemen.
Mr. Doyle. One minute. Go ahead. That is 'what you asked for.
Mrs. Linn. Thank you, Mr. Doyle.
I am a patriotic American Jewish woman, and every Friday night,
over the Sabbath candles, my two little children and myself make a
prayer over the bread and the food on our table. We bless this and
we also bless the country that we live in, sir. We are very proud of it,
and very, very much proud of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
In view of the fact of what I have witnessed today especially, and 2
other days ensuing, I did not come on my own accord. I was sub-
penaed to come here. But it has been quite an experience, sir. And
I have learned a great deal about the behavior and the objective of
this body and what its intentions are.
Therefore, and in regard to my Constitution and Bill of Rights,
I shall take a stanch and steady stand, even more than ever sir. Fire
away.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Linn. Would you please repeat the question, sir.
Mr. Arens. The question is. Do you know a person by the name
of Adele Kronick Silva, S-i-1-v-a ?
Mrs. Linn. Mr. Arens, I am proud to tell you that I am going to
take the position on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. "V^^^at is your position on that?
Mrs. Linn. I take a position because I am proud of the first
Mr. Doyle. Do you claim that privilege ?
Mrs. Linn. I am claiming the privilege,
Mr. Doyle. All right.
Mrs. Linn. Fine.
Mr. Arens. Lady
Mrs. Linn. My name is Mrs. Linn.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6853
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not you know Adele Kronick Silva you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in crimi-
nal proceeding i'
Mrs. Linn. Mr, Arens, I am afraid that would be absolutely im-
possible to be completely honest in regard to the character of this
committee, and I must claim the privilege.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mrs. Ltnn. I am very much afraid to say anything. I won''t dis-
cuss anything with you people.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead and testify.
Mrs. Linn. I am terribly afraid of this connnittee.
Mr. Doyle. You have said that many times in the last few minutes.
Mrs. Linn. All right. Then I will claim the privilege of the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. Very good. Pi'oceed.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Linn. I shall do so, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Scherer. The record is already
Mrs. Linn. It is on the record, I believe, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; it is.
Mr. Arens. Adele Kronick Silva, who was a former undercover
agent in the Communist conspiracy at the behest of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation, gave sworn testimony that she knew you as a member
of the Communist Party. Was Adele Kronick Silva lying or was she
telling the truth I
Mrs. Linn. I will answer the same as I have before. I will proudly
claim the privilege of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler, my associate, is going to display to you
a document of the Ethel Linn Defense Committee for the Repeal of
the McCarran-Walter Act.
Kindly look at this document and see if you can tell us something
about this Ethel Linn Defense Committee for the Repeal of the
McCarran-Walter Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 552a, b," see appendix, pp. 8091,
8092.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Linn. In answer to the question I will quote this :
Such proposals are not consistent with the constitutional doctrine of the
separation of powers —
President Harry S. Truman.
Mr. Arens. Wlio prepared that document that you are reading
from?
Mrs. Linn. Vetoing the Walter-McCarran Act or the Walter-Mc-
Carran bill, as it is placed here.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, please, who prepared the document on this
Ethel Linn Defense Committee.
Mrs. Linn. "The Walter-McCarran law rests uj)on an attitude
of "
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Linn, you are being asked a question. So please
cooperate.
8533.3— 57— pt. 1 46
6854 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Linn. I will claim the privilege and refuse to answer on the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
what you know about the Ethel Linn Defense Committee you would
be supplying information that could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Linn. I am truly, sincerely, honestly afraid to answer this
committee — I really am — in regards to
Mr. Doyle. Wliat is your answer ?
Mrs. Linn. I will claim the first and fifth amendments, sir.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer that last question.
Mrs. Linn. I claim, Mr. Arens — Are you listening ?
I am claiming the privilege of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. ScHERER. Let me explain it to her.
The courts and the law require us to ask the chairman to direct you
to answer the question.
We heard you, but then you may repeat the same answer if you so
desire.
Mrs. Linn. I am sorry. I misunderstood you, sir.
Mr. DoTLE. So I direct you to answer that question.
Mrs. Linn. All right. I claim the privilege in the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I res]Dectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions?
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Arens. We haven't asked this : Are you now or have you ever
been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Linn. I claim the privilege of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Martin Hall, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Hall, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Hall. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN HALL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
DANIEL G. MARSHALL
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Hall. My name is Martin Hall. I reside at 966% Palm Avenue,
Los Angeles 46. I am a writer and lecturer.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Hall, in response to a
subpena which Avas served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities?
Mr. Hall. I do.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Hall. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6855
Mr. Marshall. My name is Daniel G. Marshall, Los Angeles.
Mr. Chairman, I wish to address the chairman with respect to the
conduct of these proceedings.
Mr. Doyle. We are not going to take time
Mr. Marshall. I don't want to get involved in any altercation.
You have a responsibility of protecting counsel against invasions
of their rights as counsel. You are a member of the bar, and you
have a responsibility.
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest
Mr. Marshall. I want to be treated with respect.
Mr. ScHERER. One more outburst, Mr. Marshall, and I am going to
move that you be ejected from this room. You know the rules.
Mr. DoYLE. Let's proceed.
Mr. Marshall. I ask you ■
Mr. Arens. I ask you. Are you now or have you ever been a member
of Communist Party '?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hall. Would the reporter please read the question. I couldn't
hear.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or liave you ever been a member of the
Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hall. I must decline to answer this question on the grounds
of the first amendment supplemented by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hall. I decline to answer this question, too, on the grounds of
the first amendment supplemented by the fifth. It can't possibly have
anything to do with the proposed legislative contemplations of this
committee where I was born.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. AVitness, I instruct you to answer that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hall. The same answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hall. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. By derivation or by naturalization or by birth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hall. Counsel, as I .understand the Constitution, it makes no
difference as to the rights of an American citizen whether he was- — -
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Hall. And for this reason I have to decline. There is no per-
tinence, and I decline to answer this question on the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Hall. Same answer ; same reason on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you now a card from
the Fifth Annual Southern California (Conference To Protect the
Kights of P^oreigii P)orn [Americans], bearing your signature.
Kindly look at that document and be good enough to cerify its
authenticity.
6856 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 553," see appendix, p. 8093.)
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, I don't want this microphone on
Avhile I confer witli my client. Is there a ciitoff button?
Mr. DoYT.E. Just a minute, Dan Marshall.
You did not need to interject that. If you don't want to speak so
}'Our advice to your witness is heard, that is O. K. But leave the
hearin*^ room equipment alone.
Mr. Marshall. I am inquiring. Is there a cutoff button ?
Mr. Doyle. I don't know.
Mr. ISIarshall. Yesterday Mr. Scherer mentioned that he could
hear and didn't want to overhear consultations between client and
attorney. Let's be reasonable and cut it off.
Mr. Doyle. Now you have made your little speech.
Mr. ]\Iarshall. There isn't any speech. Let's be civilized. Let's
be courteous. Is this off now ?
Mr. Arens. Incidentally, Mr. Hall, while you are looking at that
card, may I invite your attention to the fact that you are designated
there as a delegate from the arts, sciences, and professions to this
conference.
(The v.'itness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hall. This question pertains to my personal obligations which
are protected under the first amendment, and I decline to answer this
question on the grounds of the first amendment supplemented by the
fifth.
Mr. Arens. Now Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a docu-
ment, which is The Torchlight, official publication of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which your name ap-
pears. You are going to be a speaker. Martin Hall is going to lecture
on the cold war at the Hungarian Workers Hall. And it is sponsored
by the Needle Trades Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
I believe that is a new organization from the standpoint of this record.
The Needle Trades Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Kindly look at that document and see if you will be good enough
to verify its authenticity with reference to yourself and your lecture.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 554," see appendix, pp. 8094-
8097.)
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that this document be
marked for identification for the record ?
Mr. Arens. Counsel, I will explain to you that the chairman had a
general order at the start of this hearing that all documents which
are displayed will be appropriately marked and included in the record.
Will you kindly answer the question, please, Mr. Hall ?
Mr. Marshall. At this time I ask for a reasonable opportunity to
read the document submitted so that I may adequately and competently
advise my client with respect thereto.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead and take a reasonable time and do it.
Mr. Marshall. Was that remark directed to me, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I didn't say anything at all to you. I asked if this
was the last witness. I have a luncheon engagement at 12 : 30.
Mr. Marshall. Just before that.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6857
Mr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest
Mr. Marshall. You just said you didn't say a God-d thing.
Mr. Arens. I respecti'ully suggest that this man be removed from
the room. He has insulted a member of tliis committee.
Mr. Marshall. Did you say that, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Velde. I move that he be removed from the committee room.
Mr. Marshall. Didn't you say it, Mr. Scherer !■
Did you say it?
As man to man, lawyer to lawyer, did I hear correctly ?
Mr. Scherer. I do not intend to answer this man. He is violating
the rules of this committee.
Mr. Marshall. You are claiming the first and fifth aniiendments.
Mr. Velde. There is a motion on the floor that he be ejected by the
marshal.
Mr. Scherer. What I say to the committee is no concern olc this man.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Velde has made a motion that Mr. Marshall be asked
to leave the room ; if he doesn't, that he be ejected.
Mr. Scherer. I second it.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer seconded it.
Mr. Marshall. What is the order of flie Chair ?
Mr. D0YI.E. The motion is carried.
Mr. Marshall. What is the order of the Chair ?
Mr. Doyle. The ruling of the Chair is that you leave (he hearing
room voluntarily or you will be ejected.
In my opinion, you deliberately violated the rules of the committee.
Mr. Marshall. I do not leave voluntarily, but I will not be removed
by force because if it is an order of the committee that I leave
Mr. Doyle. I regret it very much, but that is the way it is
Mr. Marshall. You sliould regret it. Am I ordered to leave?
Mr. Doyle. You heard my statement, Mr. Marshall,
Mr. Marshall. Am I ordered to leave? Am I ordered^ T wish ^.o
go if I am ordered.
(Whereupon, counsel for the witness was escorted from the hearing
room.)
Mr. Hall. Mr. Chairman, may 1 — —
Mr. D0YI.E. The committee Avill please come to order, as well as the
guests of the committee.
I just wish to say it makes it very difficult on the part of the chair-
man of the connnittee because I am well aware of the fact that there
is a deliberate plan, an attempt on the part of some people to
npi'.e.t these proceedings and make it as difficult as possible and em-
barrass the proceedings. And we can't permit even a member of the
bar to deliberately and rej^eatedly violate the rules of the c(mimittee.
When I stated to Mr. Mai'shall tliat I regi-etted tliat was my order;
I meant it. But I ha])pen to be cliairman of a congressional ^;ubcom-
mittee, and I am not even going to allow a member of the California
bar, of which I also am a member, to repeatedly, and deliberately vio-
late the rules of this committee.
I know most of these lawyers more or less ])ersonally. And it makes
it vei'v difficult on me as clmirmau to make this rnlinjr. But I can't
6858 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
do less because I know that some of them are deliberately making
it difficult. And it is difficult.
"What is your statement ?
Mr. Hall. Mr. Chairman, not throu<ih my fault, I am now without
a lawyer.
Mr. Doyle. I recognize that.
Mr. Hall. And I would very nmch like to have permission
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest this witness be continued under
subpena and be excused from further appearance at this time.
Mr. Doyle. We certainly wouldn't ask you to go ahead without
counsel. So you are excused with the subpena continued.
Mr. ScHERER. It should be obvious now that this is a deliberate plan
so that some of these people are not compelled to testify. Their
lawyers deliberately violate the rules of the committee so they can
be ejected. That deprives them of counsel. They know we won't
ask them to go ahead without counsel. So they get out of testifying
before the committee.
Mr. Hall. I resent the insinuation. I have asked a civil question —
what I can do without a lawyer. And you don't have to insinuate
that I conspire.
Mr. ScHERER. I didn't say you did.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of a Communist-controlled con-
spiracy ?
Mr. Hall. I am not answering any questions as long as I don't have
any lawyer here.
Mr. Doyle. You are excused. Your subpena is continued in effect.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, that would conclude, if you please, sir,
the witnesses on the series of the principal area of inquiry of the
committee.
The committee now has 2 or 3 witnesses, 2 witnesses, whom we
should like to hear very briefly, principally' as an accommodation to
another subject.
Mr. Doyle. All right. Proceed.
("Wliereupon, the committee proceeded to other business, after which
the following proceedings ensued :)
Mr. Doyle. Will the listeners be quiet just a minute, please. I will
take only 1 minute because it is a late hour.
There have been very, very few people in these 3 days who have in
anyway been discourteous or not cooperative, and I want to thank
those who have been cooperative. We appreciate that very much.
I want to publicly thank, on behalf of Congress, the management of
this Federal building, especially the superintendent and his able staff.
I want to thank the United States marshal and his able staff.
I want to thank, too, the press and cameramen and those in the field
of television and radio, for their efforts to get the facts to the people.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I just want to make an observation or
two.
It has been very pleasant to be here with you and the gentleman
from Ohio, Mr. Scherer, to participate in these hearings.
It just occurred to me that, from listening to the various witnesses,
some of them cooperative, who, of course, have been commended by
this committee, that there is a very dangerous element to the security
of our country here in the Los Angeles area.
I do believe that the lawyers who have been ejected should be closely
watched.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6859
I would recommend to the American Bar Association and Cali-
fornia Bar Association, as the gentleman from Ohio has recommended,
that they consider disbarment proceedings against these vituperative
counsel.
May I say also that I would like to commend our very able and effi-
cient comisel, and also Mr. Wheeler who has had charge of the in-
vestigations out here, and Mr. Appell and Mr. Weil.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have anything, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. No ; nothing.
Mr. Doyle. The committee stands adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m.. Saturday, December S. the subcommit-
tee was recessed, to be reconvened at 10 a. m., Monday, December 10,
1956, in the Federal Building, San Francisco, Calif. Committee
members present : Representatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
subcomimittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
/San Francisco^ Calif.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess, at 10 a. m., in room 338, Federal Building, San
Francisco, Calif., Hon. Clj^de Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
Committee members present: Eepresentatives Cl3'de Dojde, of Cal-
ifornia; Harold H. Velde, of Illinois; and Gordon H. Scherer, of
Ohio.
Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
"\Miceler, Donald T. Ap])ell, and W. Jackson Jones, investigators; and
Richard S. Weil, staff member.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will please come to order.
Before we proceed, I wish the record to show that the membership
of the subcommittee officially appointed by Chairman Walter of the
full committee is present, Mr. Velde, of Illinois, on my right; Mr.
Scherer, of Ohio, on my left; and I, Congressman Dojde, of Los
Angeles County, Calif., presiding as subcommittee chairman.
'\^^lile we are waiting for a few people to be seated so that the
proceedings of the conmiittee will not be interrupted, I should state
that the article in the San Francisco Chronicle of December 10, 1956,
apparently released b}" the American Civil Liberties Union of North-
ern California with reference to the public hearings by this committee,
was called to my attention.
I will read the last paragi-aph about which I wish to briefly com-
ment. This is apparently a q^uote from the executive secretary of the
American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California.
AVhat the ACLU most deplores about this heacUine-huiithig coniniittee is its
violation of the freedom of speecli. There is nothing unlawful about advocating
legislative changes in our laws, whether such changes are advocated by Cojn-
munists or anyone else.
I wish to say in this connection that this committee of the United
States Congi'ess, as well as the United States Congress itself, recog-
nizes the worthiness and the propriety of advocating legislative
changes in our laws, does not object to the Communists advocating
changes in our laws. They, too, have the right of petition of
Congress.
6861
6862 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
But iiiuler article V of the Tluited States Constitution there is an
orderly way in which our laws may be chanfjed. And the Communist
Party in America does not operate in accordance with article V of the
United States Constitution as is well proven time after time in this
country by findini^s of our Inghest courts and by State and congres-
sional legislative committees.
AA^iat we are concerned abont in these hearings, and what we were
concerned about in the Los Angeles hearings last week, was the fact
that the Communist Party in America does not petition Congress in
its own name. It petitions Congress through false dummies, through
false Communist fronts, such as the American Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born wdiich was proven to be a Communist front in the
Los Angeles hearings. And in the Los Angeles hearings it was shown
without contravention, without contradiction that the present execu-
tive secretary of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, still being paid a salary, was convicted under the Smith Act
21/2 years ago. She still is the executive secretary, and is a convicted
Communist today. ^
It is quite true her case is on appeal to the United States Supreme
Court. But nevertheless, to us, as Congressmen, it is abhorrent that
a convicted Communist for 2% years after conviction by a jury in
the United States district court in this State should be continued to
be hired by one of these Commie-front committees.
Mr. SciiERER. May I interrupt, Mr. Doyle ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. This executive secretary was a convicted Communist,
and all of the paid functionaries of the Los Angeles Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born were identified as active Communists.
Mr. Doyle. That is correct. Thank you, Mr. Scherer.
And, as I said yesterday, we believe that your Congress is entitled
to know the actual identity of the people who are petitioning it for
redress. And one reason w'e are here this morning is not to deal with
the merits of legislation at all, but to find out, if we may, how many
Communist fronts or identified Communists in the San Francisco Bay
are operating to destroy the internal security provisions of any
Federal statute.
We are not here to defend the merits of any Federal statute. We
are here to try to ascertain the devious, the subversive, the secret, the
undisclosed operations of the Communist conspiracy in this part of our
State — by the way, my native State, and I am very proud of it be-
cause I was born in Oakland — as relates particularly to four Federal
statutes: the Smith Act, 76th Congi-ess; the Subversive Activities
Control Act of 1950 ; the Communist Control Act of 1954 ; and the
Walter-McCarran Act of the 82d Congress.
It is the security ])rovisions of each of these bills with which we
are concerned. We naturally do not oppose repeal or amendment
or revision of any legislation, but we do feel, and we believe the
American public agrees with us, that the Congress is entitled to know
with whom it is dealing. And that is one of the purposes of this
hearing this morning, and yesterday.
Mr, Scherer. And may I add this, Mr. Doyle, to your excellent
statement? That the people of the country have a right to know,
when they are called upon to contribute to organizations that seek to
I See footnote, p. 6823.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6863
amend leoislatioii, whether or not those organizations are Comiimnist
controlled or Communist dominated.
Mr. Doyle. Now one further statement that was published by the
American Civil Liberties I^nion of Northern California in the same
paper. December 10, and I quote :
We don't need public hearings, Besig said, to discover that a liandful of Com-
munists have seized upon our harsli and discriminatory immigration laws as
a means for making political hay.
A very frank admission by that committee which publislied this
declaration that the Communists have seized upon the immigration
laws to make political hay.
And may I make it clear, in view of the attack on this committee
condemning these hearings, we wish they would admit and publish
also, over their own official designation, the facts about the extent
of the Communist cons]uracy in our country instead of issuing state-
ments that can not result in other than misleading the American
public about the seriousness of the Communist conspiracy,
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Was the ACLU statement submitted to you prior to the
release to the newspapers^
Mr. DoYi>E. No, it was not.
Mr. Velde. And also Avas it by a branch of the ACLU or did it
come from national headquarters?
Mr. Doyle. AVell, it is printed American Civil Liberties Union of
Northern California. It appears to be released by Mr. Ernest Besig,
executive director of the ACLI"^, who called the hearings grossly un-
fair, unnecessary, a waste of the taxpayers' money, in violation of the
right of free speech. A lot of false window dressing and bunkum.
In saying that may I make it clear we don't criticize. We welcome
the able counsel who appeared yesterday and does appear from time
to time with that grouj) befoi-e this committee. We don't criticize
that in any way. Nor do we criticize the right of any group to make
a statement.
Bue we do feel that it should be as clear as crystal, accurate, and
truthful and not misrepresentation.
Xow just before we begin, because this hearing is in one of tlie court-
rooms of the United States Government, and a courtroom of a very
distinguished judge whose conrtesy we appreciate in allowing us to
meet here, I have here a case which is pertinent, I thiidc, at tiiis time,
the case of the I'nited States of America, plaintitf, versus Sam Title,
defendant, in the United States District Court, Southern District
of California, Central Division, June 8, 1955. This is a decision by
the distingnished Ignited States chief judge of the southern district
of California. Hon. Leon Yankwich, and I read from page 193 of
that decision. And I deliberately read it because I want the record
to show, and I want those who are in this courtroom to hear, that this
kind of statement is not the information the ACLU takes occasion to
release.
I quote from the judge's decision :
We have already referred to the fact that the Communist Party of the United
States and the local branch to which the defendant belonged adopted the gloss
which Lenin, Stalin and the Communist International placed on Marxist teach-
6864 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
ings. • The literature in the record shows that American Communist conventions
and American Communist writers pointed not only to these teachings as correct,
hut to the practice embodied in the liussian Revolution and the Communist
dictatorship enthroned by it as the "way out." The following brief quotations
will suffice :
"The experience of the victorious workers of the Soviet Union before, during
and after the seizure of power, throw a brilliant light showing the path which
must be followed in every land, the path of Bolshevism, of I\Iarx, Engels, Lenin,
and Stalin."
It is a pretty serious matter when a year ago our Federal court,
after extended trial, made this sort of a finding in a case involving
the very type of people, some of whom we are interrogating here in
these hearings.
I invite the ACLU to give the American public, from whom it re-
ceives its funds, some of this basic information such as that.
Also, in view of the fact that the ACLU of northern California has
criticized this hearing as unnecessary and a waste of public funds,
I would like, if there is no objection, to read in the record at this point
a letter so the American people can take their choice whether or not
these hearings are unnecessary. The author of the letter is Mr. J.
Edgar Hoover.
(The letter referred to follows :)
Office of the Dikector,
United States Department of Justice,
Federal Bureau of Investigation,
Washington, D. C. April 2, 1956.
Hon. Clyde Doyle,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D. C.
My Dear Congressman : Tour letter of March 29, 1956, has been received
and I do appreciate your interest in my recent testimony before the House Ap-
propriations Subcommittee. Unfortunately, I do not have copies available for
distribution, but you may like to make inquiry with the office of the Committee
for the text.
The American people owe a great debt of gratitude to the work over the years
of Congressional investigating committees. These committees, day after day
secure information vitally needed in the consideration of new legislation. They
are indeed indispensable parts of the American legislative process.
Congressional investigating committees, moreover, time after time ha\'e bi-ought
to the attention of the Nation conditions of fraud, dishonesty and subversion.
This function of awakening public opinion is of the greatest importance in our
democratic life— a service not within the province of regularly constituted in-
vestigative agencies. Congressional investigating committees, by the very
nature of the broad powers vested in them, are enabled to search out the facts
and make them available to the citizenry.
We in the FBI have the highest appreciation for the contributions rendered
by Congressional investigating committees dealing with un-American activities.
Each in its own way is serving the American people. The FBI is strictly a fact-
gathering agency. It does not express opinions or make recommendations on
the information it secures. That is the function of other officials <if the Gov-
ernment. As the investigative arm of the Department of Justice, the FBI is
charged with the duty of investigating violations of the laws of the United
States, collecting evidence in cases in which the United States is or may be a
party in interest, and performing other duties imiwsed by law. Its function
is not exposure or securing information for legislative purposes. That is the
function of the Congressional investigating committees.
I feel that both the FBI and the Congressional investigating committees, in
the field of internal security, have important roles to play. We are working
for the same goal — protecting our great Nation from enemies who seek to de-
stroy us. Our work is not contradictory, but mutually helpful. That is as it
should be.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6865
It was a pleasure to set forth my opinious on this topic, and you may feel
free to insert this letter in the Congressional Record.
Sincerely yours,
J. EuGAK Hoover.
Mr. Doyle. Now to show the volume of work that a congressional
committee has, as well as the FBI, and onr Department of Justice, in
this field of subversive activities by the Communist conspiracy, the
deliberate program of the American Communist Party and other sub-
versives to subvert all security legislation on the Federal level dealing
with our own national security, I sent a telegram the other day to
the Department of Justice, Washington, D. C, December 4, 1956.
(For telegram and reply, see testimony, pp. 6721, 6722.)
And so may I just briefly say that, generally speaking and almost
without exception, the type of people that this committee deals with
in theses hearings or any public hearings is the type of people being
prosecuted by our Department of Justice as reported in these tele-
grams, and the type of people convicted under our internal security
statutes.
Mr. Velde. I think, Mr. Chairman, you would want to except from
that the cooperative witnesses we have had who give us such vital
information.
Mr. Doyle. I am glad you mentioned that, Mr. Velde. And I do
expressly wish to except and explain that over the country there is
an increasing number of former Communists who got their fill of
that sort of bunk and who have come forward voluntarily and coop-
erated with this committee. We designate them as friendly witnesses.
We appreciate that sort of voluntary cooperation and helpfulness.
Mr. Doyle. Let us proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arexs. Thank you sir.
Wilhelmina Loughry,^ kindly come forward.
Mrs. Lougiirey. My counsel will be in here this afternoon at 2
o'clock. I wonder if my appearance can be postponed ^
Mr. Arexs. Would you kindh^ come forward a moment ?
Mr. Doyle. Will you come forward so we can liear you, please?
Mrs. LouGHREY. I understand. Congressman Doyle, that Mr. Treu-
haft spoke to you yesterday.
Mr. Doyle. You are quite right. Yesterday, at the time of adjourn-
ment, he spoke to me and saicl he represented two clients.
JNIrs. LouGHRKY. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. For these hearings. And he asked that you not be
requii'ed to testify until he could get here at 2 o'clock.
Mrs. LouGHREY. Thank j^ou very much.
Mr. Doyle. We are very glad to cooperate.
Mrs. Lougiirey. Thank you.
Mr. Doyle. That was Attorney Treuhaft, of San Francisco.
Mrs. LouGHREY. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. May I ask. Is the other witness, Mr. Lawrence Lowe
represented by the same attorney ?
Mr. IxiwE.^ Yes.
Mr. DovLE. Tlien you will be excused, if you desire, until 2 p. m.
this afternoon.
Mr. Lowe. Tliaiik vou.
1 Testimony of Wllholmina Lougiirey (correct spelling, Wilhelmliie LoiiKhry) and
Lawrence Lowe on December 11, 1956, appears in Investife'ation of Communist Propaganda
in the United States, Part 3, pp. 613.5-61.30.
6866 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arexs. The next witness, if you please, then, Mr. Chairman,
Avill be Grace Partridge.
Mr. Chairman, so the record may be clear, may I make a little ex-
planation here to the committee?
The two witnesses who were jnst now excused until 2 p. m. were
witnesses who were subpenaed in connection with tlie project on Com-
munist propaoanda.
Beofinnino; now, the inquii*y will be focused on the second phase of
the committee's study; namely, Communist Political Subversion.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. GRACE PARTRIDGE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUN-
SEL, NORMAN LEONARD
Mr. Leonard. Mr. Chairman, I was before tlie committee yesterday.
So the committee knows me. My name is Norman Leonard. I repre-
sent Mrs. Partridfje.
I have a problem which 1 wonder if I could raise with the committee
at this point.
Mr. Doyle. If it is ])oints of law or anythino' of that sort, this is not
a court.
Mr. Leonard. I appreciate that.
Mr. Doyle. If it is a motion
Mr. Leonard. It is a matter of procedure.
May I state my question, and then, of course, I will abide by what-
ever the connnittee says.
Mrs. Partridge is here in response to a sub])ena that was served upon
her. I am her counsel, and I liave got to represent her. I also want
to comply with the committee's rules.
My problem is that I believe that a ])ortion of that subpena is in-
valid. I have prepared a motion to quash that portion.
I ask the committee by what mechanism I can both comply with its
rules and protect my client. That is my problem.
1 believe a portion of the subpena is invalid.
Mr. Doyle. This is not a court of law. We cannot entertain a mo-
tion to quash either all or any part of the subpena, not being a court
of law. And you have recourse to legal ])rocedure in courts of law,
as you well know, but not before this committee. We are not a judicial
body.
Mr. Leonard. For the record may I simply say I have liere, and I
am ])repared to tender to the connnittee, a written motion to quash the
subpena on the grounds that a portion of it at least is invalid.
Mr. Doyle. You can file it, but we will not rule on it. We will
not entertain it ; this is a fact investigation under Public Law 601.
Mr. Leonard. All right.
Then at least I may file it.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Arens. Grace Partridge. Would you kindly come forward and
remain standing while the chairman
Mrs. Partridge, I am Mrs. Grace Partridge.
Mr. Arens, Would you kindly remain standing while the chairman
administers the oath to you.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6867
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Partridge. I do.
Mr. Arens. Will you identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Partridge. I am Grace Partridge, and my address is 942
Hayes Street. And on the occupation I refuse to answer because of
grounds set forth in the memorandum by counsel.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Gommittee on Un-American
Activities'^
Mrs. Partridge. I am.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Partridge. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself on this record.
Mr. Leonard. Norman Leonard, 240 Montgomery Street.
Mr. ScHERER. May we move the microphones closer to the witness
and counsel ?
Closer to counsel and further away from you people.
Mr. Leonard. They asked for this thing. Yesterday the witness was
sitting here, but apparently the reporter wants the witness over there.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, did you identify yourself in this record ?
Mr. Leonard. Yes, I think I did, I think the reporter has it.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Partridge, my associate, Mr. Wheeler, will display
to you some exhibits or perhaps I can do so by reaching over this desk.
The first exhibit is a reproduction of The Lamp of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (December 1950-Januarv
1951).
In this document we see an article with respect to the Northern
California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and its creation.
We have also another photostatic copy of the Lamp of July 1952,
in which is set forth the following, to whicli I invite your attention :
On June 29, the Northern California Committee for Protection of PV»reii,'n Born
held its first conference in San Francisco. Mrs. Grace Partridge, of San Fran-
cisco, is now serving as executive secretary of the committee, which is defendiug
William Heikkila, Nat Yanish, and others against the threat of deportation.
I have also here a photostatic copy of The Lamp of August-Septem-
ber 1952, in which is set fortli a designation and identity of yourself,
a description or characterization of yourself as executive secretary of
the Northern California Committee for l^rotection of Foreign Born.
Would you kindly look at these documents and tell this committee
if you are accurately described as executive secretary of the Northern
California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Documents marked "Pvxhibit No. H.'i.'ia, b, see a})pendix, pp. 8098,
8099.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds set fortli in the
inemoi-andum and on the fifth amendment.
Mr. DoYi.E. Mr. Counsel, may I make it clear to the witness and tlie
counsel, if you, madam, referivd to the memorandum of youi- coiuisel,
that memorandum is not being considered by this committee.
Mr. Leonard. I understand, sii'.
Mr. Doyle. In your answers. Witness, I want you to realize that
when you refer to a memorandum, (hat memorandum is not ofiicially
before this committee.
6868 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Leonard, I understood it was filed, Congressman Doyle, it was
filed as a ])art of the record. And she is referring to it, saying for the
reasons set forth there.
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute.
Mr. Leonakd. I am sorry.
Mr. Doyle. I didn't even say it was filed as a part of the record.
Mr. Leoxard. I misunderstood you.
Mr. Doyle. I said it was filed with the committee.
Mr. .Vrens. Mrs. Partridge, I display to you signature cards on
the Bank of America, photostatic copies of signature cards for the
Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And
there is a signature appearing here — Grace Partridge, secretary.
And another one: Grace Partridge, of the Northern California
Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Kindh^ look at these signature cards and tell this committee while
you are under oath, does this signature truly and correctly represent
your signature in connection with the bank account of the Northern
California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 556 a, b.," see appendix, pp. 8100,
8101.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mis. Partridge. The same answer as to previous questions.
Mr. Scherer. I don't think the record is clear, Mr. Arens, because
1 don't know whether this witness is still relying on any reasons that
she set forth in the memorandum which counsel filed.
If she is relying on those reasons, I think we should be advised
because we could not, would not take cognizance of any reasons she
sets forth in this memorandum. It might be to lier disadvantage to
rely on any reasons that slie sets forth in that memorandum.
Mrs. Partridge. Well, I am relying on both the reasons set forth
in the memorandum and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you honestly feel that if you would answer Mi\
Arens' last question that your answer, if truthfully given, might tend
to lead to a criminal prosecution ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. You sincerely believe that ?
]\Irs. Partridge. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now ma'am, I display to you certain checks drawn on
the Bank of America on which your signature appears as the maker
of the check. And they are checks, as you will observe, of the North-
ern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Will you kindly look at the photostatic reproductions of those
checks and tell this committee while you are under oath if those checks
bear your signature.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 557a, b," see appendix, pp. 8102,
8103.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. Same answer.
Mr. Scherer. I don't tliink we should make it that short.
Mrs. Partridge. Well, the fifth amendment, if you want me to say
that.
Mr. Scherer. I think you should say, "I decline to answer, invoking
my privilege under the fifth amendment," in refusing to do so.
Mrs. Partridge. I didn't get everything that you said. What did
you say ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6869
Mr. ScHERER. Your counsel will tell you.
Mr. Arens. Noay, I display to you a signature card of the Fifth
Annual Southern California Conference To Protect the Rights of
Foreign-Born Americans, on which the signature of Grace Partridge
appears, and the organization represented is the Northern California
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Would you kindly look at that document and verify the authenticity
of vour signature?
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 558," see appendix, p. 8104.)
( The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. AVould you kindly answer the question ?
Mrs. Partridge. I am talking to counsel, which is my privilege, I
think.
I decline to answer on the basis of the grounds set forth in the
memorandum by counsel, and on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr, Arens. You are reading now a statement which was just pre-
])ared for you by counsel. It that correct ?
]Mrs. Partridge. That is right.
Mr. Leonard. That is right.
I followed the suggestion of Congressman Scherer that she spell it
out rather than say, "Same answer."
Mr. Doyle. May I make this clear for the last time, witness ?
We do not consider and cannot consider nor receive as part of any
legal answer your reference to the memorandum because the memoran-
dum is not before this committee as part of the record, and will not be.
( The witness coiif ers with her counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness signs a voucher for her per diem, that part of the
voucher bearing her sig-nature be incorporated in the body of the record
so there may be a comparison of signatures.
( Document marked "Exliibit No. 559," see appendix, p. 8105.)
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Partridge, the subpena which was served
upon you is known in law as a subpena duces tecum ; namely, one which
requires you to produce certain records. The subpena commands you
to i)roduce certain letters passing between the Northern California
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born relating to etforts to revise
various legislative enactments of the Congress, including the Smith
Act, the lutei-nal Security Act and the Immigration and Nationality
Act.
(Tlie witness confers Avith her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. The subpena also requires you to ]jroduce excerpts from
minutes of certain meetings.
I now ask you. Are you, or were you, at the time the subpena duces
tt'cum was served upon you, the custodian of the records called for in
the >ubj)ena (hices tecum?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I decline to answer on the grounds of the lifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you have those records with you today ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. Same answer.
S5333 — 57 — pt. 1 47
6870 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the Avitness be
directed to answer that last question.
Mr. Doyle. AVitness, I direct you to answer the last question.
(The witness confei-s with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. The same answer. I am sorry — the same answer.
Mr. Arexs. "Where were you when this subpena was served upon
you ?
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. Let's make the record clear, in view of
Mr. Scherer's request, that the witness, instead of using the language
"same answer," refer to her constitutional privilege.
Mrs. Partridge. On the grounds of the fifth amendment.
]Mr. Scherer. The question was wdiether or not she has those rec-
ords with her. Hoat could it possibly incriminate her to tell us
wdiether she does or does not have those records with her ?
It seems to me the witness is certainly invoking the fifth amend-
ment to that question in bad faith because that merely requires a yes
or no answer. Either she has them or doesn't have them. Certainly
it couldn't incriminate the witness to say whether she does or doesn't.
I think, if the witness refuses to answer that question, invoking the
fifth amendment, it is obvious on its face she is invoking it improperly,
and she might subject herself to possible contempt proceedings before
the Congress.
jNIr. Leoxard. If the rules of the committee permit it, I would state
the theory on which I have advised her that I think that is an in-
criminating question.
Mr. ScHERER. You can tell her. Your advice may be different. But
the courts enjoin upon us the duty of explaining to a witness why
we do not accept her answer befoi'e we can, if we see fit. eventually
start proceedings for contempt. It is a duty enjoined upon us to say
what I said by certain decisions of our courts.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHEKER. You may disagree, and I respect your difference of
opinion as to wliat the law is. And you may be right. But I have
a duty to make that statement to the witness when she answers the
question or refuses to answer a question such as Mr. Arens asked her.
Mr. Doyle. I think the record shows, does it not, that I have in-
structed her, as chairman, to answer that question ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Sciierer, Yes ; it does.
Mr. Velde. Yes ; I am sure it does.
Mr. Arexs. Now. Mr. Chairman, in view^ of the status of this rec-
ord at the present time, I respectfully suggest that there be incor-
porated now in the record a copy of the subpena duces tecum and that
this witness now be ordered and directed to forthwith produce the
documents called for in the subpena duces tecum.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 560a, b," see appendix, pp. 8106,
8107.)
Mr, Doyle. It will be ordered that the subpena be incorporated
in tlie record and made a part of it. And, I now order and direct you
to i:)roduce each and every document specified in that subpena.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I will not comply with the directions for the rea-
S071S previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SVBVERSION 6871
Mr. Arexs. Now, ma'am, I want to exhibit to you a photostatic
copy of a document that has come into tlie possession of the commit-
tee in appropriate course, the Communist Party appointment of niem-
bers of tlie State cen.tral committee, meeting in Sacramento in the
year 1940.
Tliis is an affidavit signed by Walter Lambert Avith reference to the
appointment of tlie State Central Committee of the Communist Party.
The three members of the State Central Committee so appointed, ac-
cordino; to tliis document which is a Communist publication, include
Grace Partri<]ge, 22 "Walter Street, San Francisco.
Kindly look at that document and tell this committee now, while
you are imder oath, whether or not you were at the time specified in
that document of a member of the State Central Committee of the
Communist Party of California.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 561," see appendix, p. 8108.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
]SIrs. Pautridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. SciiERF.R. What was the date of that publication you just handed
the Avitness, Counsel '.
Mr. Arens. 1940.
I lay before you thi'ee different documents all bearing your sig-
nature, in which you identify yourself as- a Communist for the pur-
pose of primary elections to be held at the time specified in these docu-
ments in the State of California.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Arens. Kindly look at these documents which are displayed to
3'ou, and while you are under oath would you be good enough to verify
the authenticity^ of those signatures appearing on the photostatic copy
of those documents?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 562a-c." see appendix, pp. 8109-
8111.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Air. Wheeler, could I see that other exhibit which
deals with thhe membership of this witness in the Commuriist Party '.
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I display to you a copy of the Daih' People's AVorld
in which an article appears conmiending you for your \^xy fine work
in raising money for the Twin Peaks Club of the Communist Party.
This article appears under date of Thursday, Sei)tember 19, 1946.
T should like to read just a part of it so that the context is clear:
The Twin Peaks Club, whose $1,500 quota is the h\rgest of any neighborhood
bramh, has had only !."> members active in the drive. And .vet, (Uie t(j the tine
work of individual mend)ers like Decca Treuhaft. county financial director of
tlie Communist Party; Grace Partridge and Edith Jenkins, this club has suc-
ceeded in raisins Ji total of $855.2.5, of which .$03 is in subs.
Would 3'ou kindly look at this article in the Daily People's World
which I am now displaying to you, and tell us whether or not your
activities on behalf of the cltib of the Comnnmist conspiracy' are
accurately described.
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
6872 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I have an article from the Daily People's World of
April 30, 1952 .
NoNciTizEN All) Group Expandf:d
San Francisco, April 29. — Faced with deportation threats aimed at two San
Francisco progressive leaders — Ida Rothstein and William Heikkila, the North-
ern California Committee for Protection of the Foreign Born today announced
steps to prepare for all-out defense of these and other deportation victims.
Grace Partridge, active in San Francisco progressive activities for the last
]~) years, takes over as executive secretary of the committee on a full-time l)asis.
And so forth.
When this Daily People's World alludes to you as active in progres-
sive activities for the last 15 years do they really mean active in the
work of the Communist conspiracy in this area i'
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 563," see appendix, p. 8112.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. That article indicates she took over, Mr. Counsel, as
■executive secretary of what organization?
Mr. Arens. Northern California Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born.
Mr. Doyle. I think it said on a full-time basis.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Previously the identification has been in a sort of
interim status.
Mr. Doytj:. That would mean a full-time salary.
Mr. Scherer. What was the date that she took over ?
]\Irs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. What was the date that she took over ?
Mr. Arens. April, 1952.
Mr. Scherer. Let me ask you, witness, when you took over as execu-
tive secretary of the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born did
you disclose to the other leaders of that committee the fact that you
were a member of the Communist Party ?
]V[rs. Partridge. The fifth amendment. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Scherer. Did they know that you were a member of the Com-
munist Part}^ ?
]Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have an article here which indicates that you were
promoted from executive secretary to the president or chairman of
this committee. I am a little bit uncertain about that. Perhaps you
can help this Committee on Un-American Activities and tell us about
it.
According to the Daily People's World of April 16, 1953 — I will
display the article to you in just a moment :
A delegation sponsored by the Committee for the Protection of the Foreign
Born today demanded freedom on bail for Nat Yanish, jailed under what it
called "unconstitutional" provisions of the Walter-McCarran Immigration Act.
In tlie course of this article the following appears :
(rrnce Partridge, Foreign l^orn Committee chairman, accompanied
this delegation.
I am interjiosing a comment or two.
Grace Partridge, P\)reign Born Committee chairman, is one of those
who accompanied the delegation.
Kindly look at that and tell us if you received a promotion about
that time from executive secretary to chairman.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6873
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 564," see appendix, pp. 8112, 8113.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mrs' Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the hfth
amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. Before we go further I would like to inquire, who
was the person on whose behalf they were seeking to stop deporta-
tion ?
Mr. Arexs. Nat Yanish who, according to the article, was jailed
under tlie "unconstitutional" provisions of the Walter-McCarran Act,
the unconstitutional provisions, of course, being provisions with refer-
ence to Communists.
Mr. ScHERER. As I recall, Yanish was a Communist and was being
deported for Communist Party activities.
Mr. Arens. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. He was an alien.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to some of the
activities and positions of the Northern California Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and certain quotes by its executive secre-
tary as reported in the Daily People's World of Tuesday, July 27,
1954:
The Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born today
praised the Daily People's World as "of invaluable help" to its work and urged
its friends to help the paper's sustaining fund drive.
Here is the text of the committee statement, signed by Mrs. Grace Partridge,
executive secretary :
"The Daily People's World has given constant political leadership to the
struggle against the Walter-McCarran Law. It has stood firm against the
persecution and harassment of the foreign born of America. It has been of
invaluable help to our Northern California Committee."
And so forth.
Kindly look at this document and while you are looking at it tell
the Committee on Un-American Activities if it is not a fact that the
foreign born who, according to the Northern California Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born, were being persecuted and harassed
under the McCarran-Walter Act, were, to your certain knowledge,
members of the Communist conspiracy who were being routed under
the provisions of the McCarran-AValter Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 565," see appendix, p. 8114.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of tlie lifth
amendment.
Mr. SciiERER. Mrs. Partridge, could you tell us of just one case
where your Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has defended
an alien who was deported, or in the process of being deported, for
any oli'ense other than that of being aji active Communist?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\Irs. Partridge. Yes ; I would be glad to tell you.
I had the occasion not so long ago, in the past month, to be called
to the Vacaville Prison because some inmate up there had gotten the
address of the committee. And I had never seen the man or had
never heard of the man before. He was up in this institution be-
cause he had left the county hospital on account of having TB. He
6874 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
was arrested and given a 6-month sentence for that offense. And
lie was up there for deportation becaUvSe he had presented an alien
registration card, and they arrested him because he was an alien, and
not any other reason. He was up there in Vacaville.
Our committee defended him, and we succeeded in getting his
record expunged, part of his record expunged. The case is not
finished. But we will finish the case. And the man was not a Com-
munist, and he had never seen us in his life, if that will satisfy you.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know of any other case ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. And I refuse to answer any other questions on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What committee is this ? You said, "our committee."
Mr. SciiERER. Wait a minute.
I asked if she knew any other cases.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Sciierer. Out of all of the cases, you have cited just one where
you had a request from an individual.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I just refuse to answer any other questions on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliat is this committee you are talking about? You
said "our committee.'" You wouldn't tell us about that a little earlier.
"Wliat is our committee ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question.
You volunteered that "our committee" had done so and so. To
what committee did you refer ?
Mrs. Partridge. The same answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Doyle. Is it clear that I have instructed you to answer that
question ?
Mrs. Partridge. Very clear.
Mr. Doyle. All right.
Mr. Arens. You have also been active in promoting peace, have
you not, ma'am ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now would you just tell us whether or not your pro-
motion of peace was a phony promotion of peace through Communist
organizations, or was it a legitimate, bona fide promotion of peace?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. On tlie fifth amendment I won't answer that now.
Mr. Arens. Let's just see if this is part of the way you have been
promoting peace.
I liave here a document, "We Pledge Peace, a Friendship Book."
all issued by the American Russian Institute of San Francisco, in
which a number of people make their little contribution to this booklet
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6875
with respect to their promotions of peace. We see here one of the
promoters of peace is Grace Partridge, executive secretary of the
Northern Cahfornia Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom in
San Francisco.
There is an article here telling all about the fact that they know
what is going on in the Soviet Union — that they have facts available
for people, understanding, friendship, trade and peace.
Please locJk at this document and tell this Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities while you arc under oath whether or not your promo-
tion of peace that you spoke about is the promotional activities evi-
denced in that booklet.
(Document retained in Committee files.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the' grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Partridge, we want to invite your attention to a
call to a conference, signed by Grace Partridge, executive secretary of
the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The call to the conference seriously condemns J. Edgar Hoover
because of use of what is called here "lying stool pigeons." It seriously
attacks the movement of this Government to deport a number of
Communists. It calls for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran law.
It condemns the frameup by our Government of progressive Ameri-
cans and trade unionists.
Will you look at this document and tell us whether or not it is a
stool pigeon document when it bears your signature as the executive
secretary of the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born who is doing all these things.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 566,'' see appendix, p. 8115.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I don't really understand what you want — what
you ask.
Mr. Arexs. I just want you to tell us. Did you sign that document?
Are you the promoter of that conference?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. Then I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Velde. What is the date of that document?
Mr. Arens. It is an
Mr. Velde. I asked you what the date of the document is.
Mrs. Partridge. He will tell you.
Mr. Arens. It is an undated document.
Mr. Velde. When was the meeting called for then ?
Mr. Arens. It makes reference to a conference which, according to
the document, is to bo held in San Francisco March 5. The year does
not appear.
Mr. Velde. You could tell us that ; couldn't you ?
Mr. SciiERER. She could, but she won't.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Velde. Can you tell us the date of the proposed meeting?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
6876 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now we have a final document which we would like to
invite to your attention. It is the Sixth iVnnual Conference To Repeal
the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims.
We have displayed this document to a number of people in the
course of the several cities in which we have been, a number of people
who were participants, and we want to give you an opportunity to
look at it.
This sixth annual conference, according to this document, has as
one of the leaders, Grace Partridge, executive secretary of the North-
ern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a fraternal
delegate.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you were
tlie participant or leader in that sixth annual conference.
(See exhibit No. 102ti, appendix, p. 7273.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. The same answer on the gromids of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I don't believe, Counsel, you asked the witness
whether at this moment she is a member of the Communist Party.
Are you a member of the Communist Party today, madam ?
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I notice this exhibit, referring to a conference Saturday,
March 5, without any year indicated, also includes this statement,
apparently over the signature of Grace Partridge, executive secre-
tary, the witness before us. This is a mimeographed copy apparently
of the original signature, if she signed the original. This is what it
says, among other things :
Abnei- Green from New York will be present to report on national develop-
ments in the struggles to defend the rights of foreign-born Americans.
Who, according to our record, was Abner Green, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. One of the most notorious Communists in the world.
And also in this same document signed by the witness she attacks
the United States for its attempt to deport Harry Bridges.
Mr. Doyle. I see on these two checks which have been presented,
drawn on the Bank of America, apparently by the Northern Califor-
nia Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, 948 Market St., Room
417, San Francisco, one being dated October 5, 1956, one of the signa-
tures appears to be Grace Partridge, and the other one, dated later,
also appears to be signed by Grace Partridge.
I call attention of the committee to this fact, that apparently, there-
fore, the same procedure is followed here by this Northern Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born that was followed in Los Angeles —
that the sponsors of that committee, at that date were employing and
paying out of funds, which they received from the public by way of
contribution for the protection of foreign born — salaries to an execu-
tive secretary or chairman who, as far as the record goes, was a Com-
munist, a member of the Communist Party. I think that is clearly
what the record shows.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6877
So I just wish to state to the sponsors of the committee in San
Francisco, the same as I did in Los Angeles, that the contributing San
Francisco and Bay area public to the Xorthern California Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born should know that when they con-
tribute money to this committee that the person who controls the bank
itccount of the organization is identified before this committee, and
even in a public record at the State capitol, as a member of the State
Committee of the Communist Party. If that is the way they want
their money to be spent they can do it with their eyes open.
But the Communist Party here, the same as it was in Los Angeles,
is apparently controlling the finances and policy of the American Com-
mittee for Foreign Born in northern California.
Mr. ScHERER. It is not only true of I^os Angeles ; it is generally true
of these committees throughout tlie United States.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Let's see who the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born is, which has been referred to by counsel.
I have here the Guide to Subversive Organizations and Publica-
tions, published by the 82d Congress, House Document 137, Page 13
thereof. And this is the parent committee, as I understand it, of the
Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and
also the Southern California Committee for Protection of Foreign
J^orn or alleged protection of the foreign born.
Plere is what 1 read :
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
1. Cited as subversive and Communist. (Attorney General Tom Clark, letters
to Loyalty Review Board, released June 1, 1948, and September 21, 1948.)
2. "One of the oldest auxiliaries of the Communist Party in the United States."
(Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Report, March 29, 1944, p. 155;
also cited in Report, June 25, 1942, p. 1.3.)
3. "Among the Communist-front organizations for racial agitation" which also
serve as "money-collecting media" and "as special political organizing centers for
the racial minority they pretend to champion." "Works closely witli the Inter-
national Labor Defense, legal arm of the Communist Party, in defense of foreign-
born Communists and sympathizers." (California Committee on Un-American
Activities, Reports, 1947, p. 45; 1948, p. 113.)
So again we discover that when Congress is petitioned, if it is, by
either the Nortliern or Southern California Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born in those names it is, in fact, being petitioned secretly
and in undisclosed manner and method by the Communist Party in
the State of California, and not by anyone else, but by the Commies
in California.
Again I wish to say that Congress must know certainly, for the
protection of the American public, whose petitions they are listening
to and whose petitions are being acted upon.
We do not object to the Communist Party in California or any
place else petitioning Congress, but we do feel that in the interest of
fair, intelligent legislation we are entitled to know in Congress who
it is we are dealing with at all times. And that is one purpose of
this hearing.
Mr. Leonard. Mrs. Partridge is excused ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Leonard. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Louis Goldblatt.
6878 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. GoLDULATT. 1 do.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS GOLDBLATT. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
GEOEGE R. ANDEKSEN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occupa-
tion.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. My name is Louis Goldblatt. I live in Mill Valley.
1 am secretary treasurer of the International Longshoremen's and
"Warehousemen's Union.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Goldblatt, in response to
a subpena which was sei^'ed upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities?
Mr. Goldblatt. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And j'ou are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Goldblatt. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Andersen. My name is George R. Andersen.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Goldblatt, have you ever been known by any name
other than the name Louis Goldblatt ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldblatt. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
accorded me by the fifth amedment.
Mr. Akens. Mr, Goldblatt, I want to read you a little testimony that
vras given under oath before the House Committee on Un-American
Activities by a man by the name of Louis Rosser, who laid his liberty
on the line December 1, 1953. Here is the testimony, or an excerpt
of the testimony :
A. Well, in my work in tlie Youn.2: Communist League during this period we
followed the lines laid down by the Communist Party because the Communist
Party directed the Young Communist League, and, besides distributing the Why
Communism? we put out a pamphlet, the State committee of the Young Com-
munist League, called Young Communists in Action, and this pamphlet
Q. When was this?
A. This was in 1934. This pamphlet was written by a very intelligent, educated
young Communist named Lew Miller.
Q. Was that Lewis, L-e-w-i-s?
A. Yes, Lewis Miller. That was his party and Young Communist League name.
His real name is Louis Goldblatt. He is now the secretary-treasurer of the
International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Louis Ros.ser lying or was he telling the truth
with respect to yourself in this sworn testimony before the House
Committee on Un-American Activities in 1953?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Andersen. I>/et me see the wliole statement, will you.
(Docmnent handed to counsel for the witness.)
Mr. Arens. Counsel, page 3094, the bottom of the page.
Mr. Andersen. "Where does the testimony begin?
Mr. Arens. The bottom of the page where 3'our finger is.
Mr. Andersen. Is that where it begins ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6S79
Mr. Arens. That is where tlie allusion begins with reference to Mr.
Goldblatt.
(The witness examines document and confers with his couiiseh)
Mr. Goldblatt. What was the question?
Mr. Arexs. Read the question back, please, to the witness.
(The pending question was read b}- the reporter.)
Mr. Goldblatt. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
provided by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Louis Rosser or have you ever known
him?
Mr. Goldblatt. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been known by the name of Lew Miller ?
Mr. Goldblatt. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Xow I want to display to you a little book written b\^
yourself under the name of Lewis Miller
Mr. Goldblatt. I don't like the presumptions here. Don't you make
any statement along that line. I have given 3^ou an answer to your
question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, this record reflects that this ruan has
been identified under oath
Mr. Goldblait^. But you are making certain statements now that I
don't like one damn bit.
Mr. Arens. This man has been identified under oath
Mr. Scherer. I think the witness should be admonished
Mr. Goldblatt. Why don't you admonish your counsel first ?
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Goldblatt. I admonish you to ob-
serve the rules of the committee and decorum of the committee and an-
swer the questions when you are asked them.
Mr. Scherer. I think the record should disclose that the witness
yelled in a loud contemptuous voice.
Mr. Goldblatt. I would like to ask that the record also show that
this counsel is behaving himself in a contemptible manner.
Mr. Doyle. The record will not show anything of the kind because
he hasn't been. He is just
Mr. Goldblatt. That is merely your conclusion, Mr. Congressman.
My rights are as good as yours around here.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, for the attention
of the committee, that a man has identified this witness under oath
as Lewis Miller.
I am now displaying to this witness a booklet written by
Mr. Goldblatt. Don't throw anything at me. If you want to
throw something at me, baud it.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to again display to this
witness a booklet written by him : Young Communists in Action. And
I want to invite his attention to certain language. "Young Commu-
nists in Action, compiled by : Lewis Miller."
( Document marked "Exhibit Xo. 567," see appendix, pp. 8116-8132.)
I want you to read certain excerpts from this booklet, aud see if this
witness will be good enougli to confirm for the conmiittee his author-
ship.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
6880 COMMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens (reading) :
Today the Soviet Union stands out lilie a beacon light in a world of chaos
and crisis. It is the only country in the world where the future holds promise
for the youth. * * * Unemployment and starvation do not exist, and cannot
exist in the Soviet Union.
* * * we in the United States, under the leadership of the Communist Party
and the Young Communist League [shall] overthrow capitalism and build a
workers' and farmers' government — A SOVIET AMERICA !"
Mr. Witness, did you write these words I just read ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. I decline to answer under the grounds accorded me
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to read still another little excerpt
from page 6 of this booklet.
Mr. Doyle. What 3^ear was that written, please ?
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us what year you wrote that booklet,
please, Mr. Witness ? You have the original booklet there.
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Arens. Now I want to again invite your attention to a little
excerpt on page 6 of this booklet written by you :
* * * it is necessary to explain the nature of capitalist governments. Many
workers are under the illusion that the present government is their government.
Exactly the opposite is true.
I want to direct your attention to a little excerpt on page 7 :
The working class must, therefore, form its own political party for the purpose
of destroying the capitalist state and setting up in its place a workers' and farm-
ers' government.
Then I want to invite your attention to a little excerpt beginning on
page 8 :
The Young Communist League is a political organization. It is an organization
that trains the working class and student youth for struggle. * * *
The Young Communist League is part of the Communist movement as a whole.
Did you write those words, please, Mr. Goldblatt?
INIr, Goldblatt. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now on page 9 we see, among other language, the fol-
lowing :
Also, that its main job —
that is, the Young Communist League's main job —
is to win the masses of youth to the leadership of the Communist Party in the
struggle to overthrow capitalism and set up a workers' and farmers' govern-
ment.
Did you write those words, Mr. Goldblatt?
Mr. Goldblatt. Same answer,
Mr. Arens. Now we see here the reference to still further language :
In consequence, they are making every effort to overcome their individual
differences In order to launch a combined attack against the workers' father-
land.
This is with reference to the capitalistic countries.
We must explain to the workers the peace policy of the Soviet Union * * *. The
U. S. S. R. is not interested in securing colonies or conquering foreign markets.
Now I would like to invite your attention to a little excerpt on page
12 of this booklet written by you :
In this light we —
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6881
Mr. GoLDBLATT. I liave told you before, Mr. Counsel, I don't lilco
those assumptions.
Mr. Arens. Then deny it while you are under oath. Did you write
this booklet ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. You have had an answer to your questions. Your
assumptions here are just cheap publicity plays on your part. You
are a little two-bit publicity hound. That's all you are.
Mr. Akexs. "\Ye are used to this sort of thing. We liave been up
a<jainst fellows so touo;h they make you look like a creampuff.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Aud we have been up against characters like you
before, and we have taken good care of them.
Mr. DoTLE. I am glad there aren't many characters like you in the
country writing that sort of stuff, attacking the constitutional form of
government.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Mr. Doyle, you are doing the same thing as your
counsel is doing. You are making certain assumptions. You have
got no riglit to do so. There happens to be a
iVIr. Yelde. I think our security with the position he holds in the
union •
Mr. Akexs. I would like to invite your attention to some more
lauguage in this.
Mr. Andersen. When three of you talk at one time I can only listen
to one. I suggest we stop and start over.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, you should be admonished; your sole and ex-
clusive prerogative is to advise your witness.
Mr. Andersen. I have to listen to it.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
In this light we can understand how the Soviet peace policy is a revolutionary
international policy — and can see the significance of the slogan, "Defend the
Soviet Union."
Here is a little excerpt I would like to invite your attention to,
particularly in view of the military action of the Soviet Union in
the course of the last few weeks :
Only through militant struggle can we prevent the introduction of fascism.
The Young Communist League drill and defense squads have been formed to
help tight this menace. The defense squads are to protect meetings and
demonstrations.
Mr. Andersen. What page are you reading from ?
Mr. Arens. I am reading from page 12 of the work of this witness..
The defense squads are to protect meetings and demonstrations, prevent the
raiding of workers' clubs and headcjuarters by Fascist gangs, and to organize
the \v<)]kers for self-defense. We must be aleit to sense, report, and conduct
active campaigns against every Fascist step, and give our full sii[)p(irt to buildinsr
the American League Against War and Fascism.
Did you write those words, jjlease, Mr. Goldblatt ?
Mr. GoLDBLA'JT. Same answer. And I would like to ask that bothi
counsel and Congressman Doyle accord me the presum])tion of in-
nocence of any individual who desires to take the iifth amendment,,
and not to reach ai'bitrary conclusions in your own minds.
Mr. Arkns. Tlien why don't you, while you are under oath, deny-
that you are the author of this booklet? We have testimonv here
by a man under oath Avho i)uts his liberty on the line that you did write:
it and that you were known as Lew Miller.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
6882 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. G(tLi)i'.LAiT. Tl)at is a — paid professional perjurers of govern-
ment never put their liberty on tlie line when they testify.
Mr. SciiERER. Just a minute. Do you say that Rosser perjured him-
self? Did you say that?
Mr. GoLDBLAiT. I made a certain statement because I have seen
dozens of perjurors used against the president of this union, used
against us time and time again. I have seen them trapped in perjury,
caught in perjury, perjury proven against them, and never a single
action taken against them.
Mr. Schj-:rer. I ask that you direct tlie witness to answer the ques-
tion wliether he said Rosser perjured himself.
Mr. (toldblatt. I did not say that.
Mr. ScHERER. All rig] it.
Mr. Arens. You won't say it while you are under oath.
Mr. GoLDBLATi'. I will Say once again I have never seen a single
paid perjurer appearing in trials against President Bridges and
against our union ever prosecuted by the FBI and the United States.
Mr. Arexs. Tell us was Rosser lyhig or was he telling the truth?
Was he one of these paid perjurers ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. When he said he knew you as a member of the inter-
national Communist conspiracy as author of this work ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. Now I would like to invite your attention to page 26
of this publication by yourself :
One further step is necessary to know the structure of the Young Communist
League. This is to understand the international connection of the Young Commu-
nist Leagues throughout the world — the unification that is completed through
the Young Communist International. Inasmuch as capitalism is not confined
to one country, but spreads its tentacles over five-sixths of the earth's surface,
it is necessary that communism be organized on a worldwide scale in order to
combat it. The international solidarity of all workers is absolutely necessary if
we are to conduct our struggle against war and fascism, and for the defense of
the Soviet Union.
Now, while you are under oath, did you write that language ?
Mr. GoLUBLATT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. I put it to you as a fact, sir, on the basis of the sworn
testimony before this committee, and ask you to aflirm or deny the
fact that you did write those words.
Mr. GoLDBLAiT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. Now we want to continue with a little of your treatise
here on page 27.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. The same statement that I made before to you, too.
Mr. Arexs. Thank you, sir.
As we have said, the Young Communist International is composed of the Young
Communist Leagues throughout the world. The highest body of the YCL is
the World Congress. The World Congress is made up of delegates from the
various leagues, and lias as its job the planning of our tactics and work on a
worldwide scale. Its decisions are binding on all the Young Communist Leagues,
and the executive committee of the YCL, elected at the World Congress, is the
body chosen to carry out the plan of work.
I want to invite your attention still to another little excerpt from
the treaties on page, I believe it is, 29.
L?t me just be sure so we don't have any inaccuracies here.
Yes, page 29.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX 6883
Changes will take place very rapidly within the near future — and, \inless we
have a solid, disciplined organization
Mr. Andersen, '\^^lat page did you say?
Mr. Akens. Pa^e 29, counsel, of his work here; about the middle
of the page I am reading' now.
Mr. GoLDBLAiT. Same statement.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
Changes will take place very rapidly within the near future — and, unless we
have a solid, disciplined organization we will not be able to react to these
changes and fullill our revolutionary duties.
May I ask you what were these revolutionary duties ?
Mr. Andersen. Aren't you reading from something else? I don't
see it on page 29 of this book.
Mr. Arens. Page 29, counsel, beginning right in the middle of the
page right here.
Mr. Andersen. You are looking at a different page. This is page
29 [handing]. Will you point it out to me?
Mr, Arens. See if you can find this page. There was a little dif-
ficulty in identifying the page number at the bottom of the page.
Mr, Andersen. There is a lot of difficulty attendant on all of these
things.
Mr. A_rens. I respectf ulh' suggest that counsel again be admonished
ihat his sole and exclusive function is to advise his witness of his
constitutional rights.
Mr. Andersen. I am trying to help.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest he be so admon-
ished.
Mr. Andersen. 28.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. You are scared to death of anybody talking up
here now-.
Mr. Arens. Why don't you talk up then and tell us whether or not
you
Mr. GoLDBLATT. I have.
Mr. Arens. Whether or not you did write this article. We would
like to have you tell us. We don't want to impede your conversation at
all. Tell this committee while you are under oath
Mr. GoLDBLATT. You have had clear answers to your questions.
Mr. Arens. Give us a clear answer. Are you the author of this
article? Did you write the language in it?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. The same answer. And that is perfectly clear.
Mr. Arens. Now, counsel, have you found it ?
Mr. Andersen. I have found it, but I don't know where you are
reading.
Mr. Arens. I will start over again, counsel, to accommodate you :
Changes will take place A'ery rapidly within the near future — and, miless we
have a solid, disciplined organization we will not be able to react to these changes
and fulflU our revolutionary duties.
Do you see that language, counsel?
Mr. Andersen. I have my reading glasses on. I wish you would
point it out to me. I don't belitve it is on the page. It wasn't on i)age
29, and it wasn't on 28. I don't see it.
6884 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. We will underline the first word for you, counsel, right
there. There it is. Do you see the word underlined? I will read
it once more :
Changes will take place very rapidly \Yithin the near future — and, unless we
have a solid, disciplined organization we will not be able to react to these changes
and fulfill our revolutionary duties.
Did you see that, counsel, there ? Do you follow me now ?
Mr. Andersen. Yes, I read you.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Now, Mr. Goldblatt, kindly tell the committee while jou are under
oath about these revolutionary duties.
Mr. Goldblatt. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. We are not afraid of 3'our conversation. You come
ahead. You said Ave Avere afraid of it. We would like to have you
talk and tell us about these revolutionary duties.
Mr. Goldblatt. There are so many things I would love to talk to
you about.
jNIr. Arens. Tell us about these revolutionary duties. We Avould
like to have you do so.
In the very next sentence Ave find this :
After all, there are 120 million i^eople in the country, and the party has only
25,000 members, and the league around 7,000.
Did you write all that, Mr. Goldblatt ?
Mr. Goldblatt. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to ask you about these major industries,
telling here about Iioav these 25,000 can be the most etlective.
And, if I misquote you, you be sure and check me and tell me you
didn't write that.
Mr. Goldblatt. Same statement, too.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
First of all—
This is all on the same page. Counsel, so you can follow me.
First of all, Ave must take into consideration the fact that our membership
is not large. Secondly, that there are key industries and certain key factories
in these industries. The major industries are mine, steel, auto, textile, agri-
culture, oil, railroads, and marine. These industries are the nerve centers of
capitalism. Consequently, our main activities must be around these key points.
That is pretty clear, isn't it, Mr. Goldblatt? And did you care to
elaborate on that and come forAvard Avith a further statement on that?
Or are you still a little bashful about connneiiting on this book.
(The Avitness confers Avith his counsel.)
Mr. Goldblatt. Mr. Doyle, I may have sounded a little bit irritated
here because I am accustomed to being treated as an xVmerican citi-
zen, not badgered and not baited, and no little phony counsel using
sarcasm in his A^oice in order to try to make an impression on the press.
I insist upon dignity being accorded me here.
]Mr. Sc'herer. I move the Avitness be ejected from the courtroom.
He has been Avarned.
Mr. Marshal
Mr. Goldblatt. I Avouldn't put it past you.
That's all riglit. I'll Avalk. You're all right.
(Whereupon, the Avitness Avas escorted from the hearing room.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6885
Mr. ScHERER. I move we continue reading into the record and not
be prohibited from conducting this hearing in a
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Goldbhitt.
]Mr. Scherer. Xow, Mr. Chairman, the witness has prevented an
orderly, decent hearing, and has consistently attacked counsel of this
committee. He has been in contempt of this committee.
In view of his conduct, I ask that the counsel proceed to read into
the record the rest of the material he has.
Mr. DoTLE. Very well, it will be so ordered.
Mr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, if you please, sir, I will submit for the
record then exhibits which are self-authenticating.
If you please, sir, the first exhibit which I should submit for the
record, which is self-authenticating, is a copy
Mr. Chairman, may we have order. There is conversation all over
the room here.
Mr. Doyle. Let us have order and proceed with the hearings.
Mr, Arexs. The next exhibit which is self-authenticating with ref-
erence to this witness is a copy of the Communist Daily People's
"World, September 22, 1949, bearing the name of T^ouis Goldblatt as
one of the persons who is protesting the trial of the tAvelve Commu-
nists in Foley Square.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 568,'' see appendix, p. 8133.)
Mr. SciiEKER. ^Mr. Chairman, I move we have a 5-minute recess.
Mr, Doyle, Verj^ well.
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes,
C^^liereupon a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent: Representatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present : Representatives Doyle, Velde, and
Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. Are you read}-, counsel ?
JNIr. Arexs. Yes, sir.
Mr, Scherer. Before we proceed, I think I should say this :
There are those in this country who feel that the Communist men-
ace is not a present danger, that there are so few Communists that
there is no danger to the internal security of this Nation, I think the
testimony and the conduct of the witness who just was ejected from the
hearing room clearly demonstrates that these people are wrong. Here
you have a Communist who acted and testified the way he did, who
practically controls the shipping of this country on the entire west
coast.
I have no further comment.
Mr. Doyle, Xot only that, Mr. Scherer, but unless Ave assume that
^Ir. Rosser was a jjerjurer when he testified as he did, from the testi-
mony jNIr. Arens read, when he identified this Avitness (loldblatt at
the time the book was written as the one who has been using the name
Miller, unless we assume that this num Avas a perjurer under oath —
I mean Mr. Rosser — then I think it is a fair assmnption for us to make
that the Miller that wrote the book attacking the United States and
our SA^stem of government as read by our counsel Avas one and the same
as the present Goldblatt Avho Avas ejected from the room.
^Ir. Scherer. There can be no question about that.
Mr. DoALE. ^Ve certainly gave him a chance to answer that.
85333— 57— pt. 1 48
6886 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Now I -want to take, while we are getting quiet, just a few seconds to
read one paragraph — and I wash I had time to read more — from a
decision in the case of Quinn v. United States^ in the Supreme Couit
of the United States, October term, 1954. And this again, I think,
is apropos especially in view of the attack on this committee by the
ACLU in the Chronicle the other day.
I quote :
There can be no doubt as to the power of Congress, by itself or through its
committees, to investigate matters and conditions relating to contemplated legis-
lation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is
indeed coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investi-
gate— including, of course, the authority to compel testimony either through its
own processes or through judicial trial — Congress could be seriously handi-
capped in its efforts to exercise its constitutional function wisely and effectively.
But the power to investigate —
I am deliberately reading this next statement by our highest court
so that no critic of the committee can say that I have only read
the most favorable portion of the decision. So, as a lawyer, I am
deliberately reading this paragraph. I am deliberately anticipating
what the critics of this committee would say if I dichi't read this next
paragraph. This committee heartily agrees with this next paragraph
the same as we did the one we just read.
I read again from the same decision :
But the power to investigate, broad as it may be, is also subject to recognized
limitations. It cannot be used to inquii*e into private affairs unrelated to a
valid legislative purpose. Nor does it extend to an area in which Congress
is forbiddeo to legislate.
Mr. ScHERER. I am just wondering whether the American Civil
Liberties Union will now take a position or comment on the conduct
of the last witness, and whether it will attempt to defend the civil
rights of the duly elected representatives of the peo]^le and of the
counsel to this committee since they have been attacked by this Com-
munist who just left the stand. As usual, I think they will be strangely
silent.
Mr. Lawrence Speiser. Could I comment ?
Mr. Doyle. I invite that committee to print some portion at least of
the article by Mr. Goldblatt under the name of Miller, I assume, from
the testimony.
I ask that committee to print just the kernel of that to inform the
American public and the people who support that committee, of the
attack he made on our constitutional government.
Mr. Scherer. I would like to see the American Civil Liberties
Union, after due consideration, comment particularly for the benefit
of the press which has witnessed this exhibition this morning, on
the testimony and conduct of this witness before a congressional com-
mittee and his attack upon counsel of this committee.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, may I make just one observation?
I think it should be in the record that it is the unanimous opinion
of the three of us here on the subcommittee that our counsel, Mr.
Arens, conducted himself in good fashion all during the hearing of
the witness Louis Goldblatt, alias Lew Miller.
Mr. Sciierer. I think the record will demonstrate that. And those
in the room who have heard Mr. Arens during the last witness' appear-
ance on the stand can come to their own conclusion.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6887
Mr. Doyle. I will say, Mr. Velde, I am sure we all agree with you.
I wish to thank the marshal for beiii<? so prompt in ejecting the one
person who disturbed the meetino-, and acting promptly as directed
by the committee.
We will not tolerate any approval or disapproval manifestations.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the only introduction which I shall
now make will be from self-authenticating documents because, as is
obvious, the witness concerning whom the documents have information
is not physically present in the room.
The first document is a letterhead of the Northern California Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born with reference to a conference
of that organization which is to be held at the headquarters of the
1L"\VTJ in San Francisco.
Mr. Arens. The second document is a self-authenticating repro-
duction of an article in the Daily Worker of 1949 with respect to
Louis Goldblatt being ejected and deported from England when he
was there for a conference and because of his participation in a dock
strike that was going on at that time in England in 1949.
Mr. Arens. The next document, likewise, pertains to that same inci-
dent, and it is from the New York Times, which is a recitation by
Clifton Daniel of what transpired there.
Mr. SciiERER. Even the English, with their fine system of juris-
prudence, evidently do not tolerate the conduct of a man like this.
Mr. Arens. But I will just read one excerpt. And in the normal
course I would have interrogated the witness with respect to the facts
alleged in the article.
Quoting now from the New York Times of 1949 :
In the uieaiitime, 3 foreign anion officials — 2 United States citizens and 1
Netherlander — who were said by J. Cliuter Ede, British Home Secretary, to have
Communist affiliations and to have come here in connection with London strike,
were deported from Britain today.
This is a matter I would have normally interrogated the witness
about.
The next self-authenticating document is from the Communist
Daily AVorker with reference to a number of people who had petitioned
the United States Congress with reference to the anti-Connmniist
Mundt bill, and this document includes as one of those persons Louis
Goldblatt.
The next is a reference to a speech which appears in the Connminist
Daily People's World of December 1952, and a picture of Louis Gold-
blatt, in which Goldblatt is attacking the Smith Act, the McCarran
Act, that is the Internal Security Act, and the immigration laws,
various anti-Communist legislation in a session which was held in
Ix)s Angeles.
The next document Avhich I again say is self-authenticating is a
reproduction from the Daily People's World with reference to a lobby
in Washington, that a labor lobby has gone to Washington to lobby
for repeal of the Smith Act and other legislation.
Included in the lobby group that went to Washington, according
to this article, is Louis Goldblatt.
Mr. Arens. As I say, I would normally interrogate the witness and
ask him whether or not that reference presented tlie facts.
6888 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. And he Avoukl promptly take the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
The next self-authenticating document is with reference to a session
wliich was held in Los Angeles in wliich Lonis Goldblatt was one of the
speakers, and this session was nnder the auspices of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, liolding a dinner to honor
its legal panel. And the speaker of the occasion was, according to this
document, Louis Goldblatt.
Still the next document is a reproduction of the Communist Daily
Worker of New York of 1952 in which Louis Goldblatt is to be the
speaker at a session honoring lawyers who were working with the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The next document is a letterhead of the Harry Bridges Defense
Committee, on which Louis Goldblatt is listed as one of the sponsoring
members of the committee.
The next document is a reproduction of the Daily People's "World
of December 1951, with reference to the activities of Louis Goldblatt
in connection with the Progressive Party of California.
The next document is a reproduction of a statement by C. J.
Haggerty, secretary of the California State Federation of Labor, on
the California school. It makes reference to activities of Louis Gold-
blatt in connection with the California Labor School.
]Mr. Doyle. Was that the report in which the State A. F. of L. con-
demned the California Labor School ?
Mr. Arens. It is a California State Federation of Labor report.
Mr. Doyle. By Mr. Haggerty. And that report condemned the
California Labor School as being Communist controlled, I believe.
Mr. Arens. We have still another document, self-authenticating^
from the Daily Worker in which a number of people back in 1942,
before the expulsion of Earl Browder from the Communist Party,
intervened on his behalf. Leaders of this group include, according
to the Communist Daily Worker, Louis Goldblatt.
As I say, Mr. Chairman, these are self -authenticating documents in
that they are documents which are available to the public. But the
facts which appear in them are subject to interrogation of the witness.
Then we have a final document which is self-authenticating, an orig-
inal document — Let Freedom Ring — of the Civil Rights Congress,
referring to a conference held in Chicago. This document reveals
that one of the sponsors is Louis Goldblatt, secretary-treasurer, Inter-
national Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 569-579a, b," see appendix,
pp. 8134-8146.)
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest also that the document con-
cerning which I was interrogating the witness when he was expelled
from the hearing room, this booklet — I don't have it at my fingertips at
(Jio moment^ — be incorporated at least by reference in the record, and
iilso the application card for the Young Communist League which was
inserted in the booklet calling for the establishment of a workers" and
farmers' government — a Soviet America.
Mr. Schereh. Mr. Chairman, I understand a tape recording has
been made, or is being made, of the witnesses before this committee. I
move that the staif l)e instructed to obtain that portion of the tape
recording on which the last witness' testimony appears, and that it
be made a part of this witness' file.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6889
Mr. Doyle. Without objection.
Mr. ScHERER. I want it to be played to a committee that is going
(o consider legislation in the next Congress enabling congressional
committees to more effectively deal with such obvious contemptuous
conduct as displayed by the last witness.
Mr. Doyle. Without objection, it is so ordered.
And I think it would be appropriate, members of the committee
and counsel, if that part of the booklet under the name of Miller,
according to the sworn testimony by Rosser, of Goldblatt's, be incor-
porated in here.
Without objection, that will be done.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Clair Jensen, J-e-n-s-e-n. Kindly come forward.
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Jensen, please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnl}^ swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Jexsex. I do.
Mr. Doyle. May the record show that Subcommittee Chairman
Doyle is retiring from the committee at this time until reconvening
of the committee at 2 o'clock.
I have a speaking engagement with a group of security officers, and
I am leaving the committee with Mr. Velde of Illinois to act in my
stead, and leaving a quorum of the subcommittee of three.
Therefore, a legal quorum is present.
TESTIMONY OF MES. CLAIR JENSEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
AUBREY GROSSMAN
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Jexsen. Clair Jensen, C-1-a-i-r, 1422 Seventh Street, Berkeley ;
housewife.
{ Representative Clyde Doyle left the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today, Mrs. Jensen, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Vn -American Activities ?
Mrs. Jexsex. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Jensen. Yes.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Grossman. Aubrey Grossman, 1440 Broadway, Oakland.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jensen, are you, or have you been, secretary of the
East Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\rrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, Mrs. Jensen, if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you are secretary to the East Bay
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born you would be supply-
ing information that could be used against you in a criminal ])ro-
ceoding?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
6890 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer this question because I honest-
ly feel that answering it might lead to prosecuting action against mv-
self.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, ma'am.
Now, we would like to display to you, if you please, 2 or 3
exhibits. The first is Tlie Light, which is a publication identified in
our record ali-eady, issued by the Northern California Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. In this publication, The Light, we see
here, on page 2, the following among other things.
East Bay supporters of the Northern California Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born are really in line for a merit award for outstanding work.
Led by Clair Jensen, they have given all-out support to the "third annual
festival of nationalities" in preparing the program, in selling tickets, and in
collecting funds —
and so forth.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 580," see appendix, pp. 8147, 8148.)
Then also I shall display to you at the same time. The Lamp of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, of March-May
1953, the following appears :
An East Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has been established
in Oakland, Calif. —
and so forth.
Kindly look at those two articles and tell us whether or not you have
firsthand information respecting the establishment of the East Bay
Committee foi- Protection of Foreign Born and whether or not you
are one of the leaders in that group.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 581," see appendix, p. 8149.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer this question on the basis of the
first amendment and also the fifth. On the basis of the first because
I have a complete right to always speak mj^ mind and be a member
of any organization I wish to be
Mr. Arens. Of course you do.
Mrs. Jensen. Under tlie Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Except a criminal conspiracy.
Now tell this committee whether or not you know a person by the
name of Stanley B. Hancock.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. Do you consider Mr. Hancock to be a person who has
Communist affiliations?
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mrs. Jensen. Do you consider
Mr. Arens. Please tell this committee, ma'am, while you are under
oath whether you know Stanley B. Hancock.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I take exception to the question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jensen, wliat was your maiden name?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. Clair Aderer.
Mr. Arjcns. How do you spell the last name?
Mrs. Jensen. A-d-e-r-e-r.
Mr. Arens. Now I should like to read you a little testimony and
see if you can't help this Committee on Un-American Activities. It
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOK 6891
is the testimony of Stanley B. Hancock, who was a former Communist
Party functionary in San Diego County.
Q. I haud you a list of individuals who at one time lived in the San Diego area.
Will you please examine the list and identify any appearing on it vrho are known
to you to be members of the Communist Party with such identifying information
regarding them as you can giveV
A. I knew a party named Clair, C-1-a-i-r, .Aderer, A-d-e-r-e-r, a young lady, I
think, from Los Angeles, who became affiliated with our San Diego Communist
Party, and it seems to me she was engaged in youth activities.
Was Mr. Hancock lying or was he telling the truth when he so
testified under oath ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to ansAver on the basis of the fifth amendment
to tlie Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Now do you know, or have you known, a person by the
name of Daniel Taylor?
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment
to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Daniel Taylor, a former functionary of the Com-
mmiist Party at San Diego, testified before the House Committee on
Un-American xVctivities, on April 19, 1954. In this testimony the
following appears:
Q. Are you acquainted with Clair Aderer?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that person a member of the Communist Party to your knowledge?
A. Yes. She was a rank-and-tile member.
Did Mr. Taylor lie when he identified you as a member of the Com-
munist Party ? Or did he tell the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment
to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Now we display to you a reproduction of the Daily
People's World of September 1940, respecting a fund drive for the
Connnunist Daily People's World. And this fund drive quotes you
as folloAvs :
Clair Aderer, who recently came from San Diego, has personally issued a chal-
lenge to Vern Lym,"^ dri\e director in the south, to get her quota in first. This
challenge has also been accepted.
Please look at this publication, if you will, ma'am, and tell this
connnittee while you are under oath whether or not you are accurately
identified in that })ublication.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 582," see appendix, p. 8150.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
ISIrs. Jensen. 1 refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a document issued by the East Bay Connnit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born: '-Walter'-McCarran Act Protest
Rallv."'
Fourteen million foreign-burn Americans are threatened by the
Walter McCarran Act. Organized labor is threatened by it, accord-
ing to this. And the Constitution is threatened by it.
Hear Abner Green, executive secretary of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. All to be held at Herman Sons Hall.
1 This is a reference to La Verne Lym.
6892 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Please tell this committee while you are under oath, if you pre-
]iared this document and if it is a true and authentic reproduction of a
document issued by the East Bay Committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 583,'' se appendix, p. 8151.)
( The witness confers Avith her counsel.)
Mr. Grossmax. May I su<r<rest that you preserve the secrecy of com-
munication between counsel and witness by stepping back, please?
Back farther, please.
I would ask the chairman of the committee to preserve the right
of secrecy of counsel to confer with his client.
Mr. Velde. (presiding). You know the rules of this committee. If
you care to go into the back room for a minute or two and confer
with your client, it will be considered.
Mr. Grossmax. I refer only to Mr. Wheeler standing over my
shoulder.
Mr. Velde. He isn't there now. So go ahead and confer.
Mr. Grossmax. Thank you very much.
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensex. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jensen, could you tell this committee what a stool
pigeon is ?
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Velde. Did she use that term in that document, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Akexs. No.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Jexsex. That is a c[nestion that is diflicult to answer you in
just a few words.
]\lr. Velde. Would you speak up ?
Mrs. Jex'Sex. This is a question — I said this is a question that is
not too easy to answer in just a few words. So, if the committee
and the attornev will give me a little time to think of my answer, I
Avill appreciate it.
Mr. Velde. How long do you think it will take you to answer the
question ?
Mrs. Jexsex. If you will just give me a little time to think without
interrupting, it will be much easier and much quicker.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I suggest counsel withdraw his ques-
tion.
Mr. Velde. It is taking up too much time.
]Mr. Scherer. Proceed.
Mr. Arexs. Were you a stool pigeon against yourself when you
signed this proxy for attendance at the State Central Committee
meeting of the Communist Party under date of September 18, 1940,
in an original Communist Party document?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 584," see appendix, p. 8152.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jexsex. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Esco L. Richardson ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Jensex. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6893
Mr. Arens. Was he a stool pigeon when he si^rned this original
affidavit for the Communist Party appointing- you as a delegate to
the Communist State Central Committee at Sacramento?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 585,'' see appendix, p. 8153.)
Mrs. Jensex. I refuse to answer on the basis on the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Noay I Avould like, if you please, ma'am, to allude to a
report of a meeting of the East Bay Committee, which was held
November 28 of this year, just last month, the latter part of last
month, at the Finnish Hall, 1819 10th Street in Berkeley.
Did you have charge of that meeting over there ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Just about 2 weeks ago.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. According to the report that has come into the posses-
sion of the committee in legitimate channels :
Clair Jensen then introduced a Reverend Herriott —
H-e-r-r-i-o-t-t —
for some brief comments. Reverend Herriott stated tliat lie was honored to be
present tonight. When he was asked about appearing he stated he would be
happy to for he had always believed in fighting for the rights of the oppressed
and downtrodden, and this was also the position followed by his church. He
stated that he believed that it was good for a person or group to have a symbol
or belief to guide them, just as a ship has an emblem on its bow to guide it
through dark, deep and troublesome waters. He wanted to read two short poems
to the audience.
Are you the one who got Reverend Herriott over there to that
meeting ?
JNIrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment
of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Did you tell Reverend Herriott that you and your com-
mittee are controlled lock, stock and barrel by the Communist
conspiracy when you got him over there ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fiftli amendment
to the Constitution.
]Mr. Arens. Now Communist Agent Abner Green from the Amer-
ican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born gave a little speech
over there just a couple of weeks ago. Isn't that true?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Abner Green stated in this speech, did he not, that the
Internal Security Act of 1950 and the old Smith Act were being used
to hamper and set back the progressive forces of this country ?
Did Abner Green say that a couple of weeks ago before the East
Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. He said that about the Smith Act and what other
act?
Mr. Arens. The Internal Security Act.
6894 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr, Arens, And did Abner Green ^o on and talk about the present
company ?
When Congress reconvenes there will be once again many attempts made
to change our immigration laws. This time Congressman Walter is relying on
new tactics to prevent any changes in his bill. He is using the Un-American
Activities Committee to argue his case. This committee is presently engaged
in a road tour [laughter].
Did everybodj^ laugh when Abner Green said that ?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. ^'ELDE. Do you knoAv Abner Green, Witness?
Mrs. Jensen. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Velde. Are you acquainted with Abner Green ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Then after the laughter we see the following:
a road tour that is carrying it all over the country in an attempt to harass the
Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born. The Un-American Activities
Committee and Congressman Walter are trying to present to the American
people the picture that foreign born, or at least the foreign born who object to
the McCarran-Walter bill, are Communists. The committee will come to the
west coast after holding hearings in Chicago. While in Chicago the committee
will hear witnesses from Illinois, Indiana, and Michigan. The committee will
be in Los Angeles on the 5th, 6th and 7th of December. After leaving Los Angeles
the committee will come to San Francisco, then on to Seattle.
Did Abner Green and you and the other comrades over at the East
Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born hare this information
under date of November 28, 1956, just about 2 weeks ago?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. And then did Abner Green — and I will not undertake
to burden the record with a complete quotation here of this voluminous
document reporting on the meeting
Did Abner Green then go on and tell the comrades about Avhat all
he did to stand up to the House Un-American Activities Committee
when we had him in Washington here about a month or so ago, or a
couple of months ago? How he bested the committee, and how he
discredited the committee ?
Did he tell you all about that ?
(The witness confeis with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment,
Mr. Ajjens, Did he tell you how he shook his finger at the com-
mittee, told the committee members they Avere violating the Consti-
tution of the United States, and refused to give them the information
they required ?
Mr, SciiERER. He's right about that latter part. He didn't answer
a question. He took the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did Abner Green tell you all that ?
Mrs, Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. I put it to yo-.i as a fact, ma'am, and ask you to affirm
or deny the fact that the East Bay Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born is one tentacle of the American Committee for Protec-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6895
tion of Foreign Born and that, to your certain knowledge, it is con-
trolled, lock, stock, and barrel, by the Communist Party.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspirato-
rial apparatus ?
Mrs. Jenskn. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to ask you, if I may, in conclusion,
the names of some people who were in attendance at this little session
over here concerning v.hich you have the dark cloud of secrecy.
Gilbert Bendix ; do you know him ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Jensen. Do you consider that this Gilbert Bendix has Com-
munist affiliations ?
Mr. Arens. Ma'am, I am asking the questions here. Just tell us,
Was Gilbert Bendix there ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the ])asis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Grace Patridge ?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Was Ann Yanish there ? Y-a-n-i-s-h.
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. "Well, let's just, without being too tedious about this
matter, ask you if you will tell us who was there.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
ISIr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
]Mr. Vr.T.DE. An}^ questions, ]\[r. Scherer?
Mr. SciiERER. The fact is that, by far, the greater percentage of
those that were at this meeting were members of the Connnunist
Party. Isn't that a fact, Witness ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of tlie fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. SciiERKR. That is all.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused. And the committee will be in
recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:20 p. m., the committee was recessed, to be re-
convened at 2 ]). m. this same day. Conunittee members present : Rep-
resentatives Velde and Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— TUESDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1956
The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess at
2 : 35 p. m. and resumed its hearings on Investigation of Communist
Propaganda in tlie United States. For these proceedings, see testi-
mony of Wilhelmina Loughrey (correct spelling Wilhelmine
6896 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Ijoughry) and Lawrence Lowe, which is printed under the title, "In-
vestigation of Communist Propaganda in the United States," Part
3, pages 6135-6189, At the conclusion of their testimony, hear-
ings on Communist Political Subversion were resumed.
Committee members present when the subcommittee reconvened:
Representatives Doyle and Scherer.
Mr. Spejser. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it would be proper to make
some commonts with respect to the comments about ACLU, on which
they were invited, at this time ?
Mr. DoYi.E. No, INIr. Speiser.
Mr. Speiser. Very well.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Mr. Aubrey Grossman.
Kindly come forward.
Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers an oath to
you.
Mr. DoTi,E. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Grossman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF AUBREY GROSSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BENJAMIN DREYFUS
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Grossman. Just one minute, please.
Aubrey Grossman, 1440 Broadway, Oakland ; attorney-at-law.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Grossman, in response
to a subpena Avhich was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
Mr. Grossman. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Grossman. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
]\Ir. Dreyfijs. I am Benjamin Dreyfus, San Francisco.
Mr. Arens. Give us just a thiunbnail sketch, please, Mr. Grossman,
of your education.
Mr. Grossman. Graduated from the University of California at
Los Angeles in 1932: graduated from the University of California
Law School at Berkele}^ 1935.
Mr. Arens. And when were you admitted to practice laAv?
Mr. Grossman. Somewhere in the latter part of 1936 ; I believe it
was August.
Mr. Arens. You are admitted in the State of California and in any
other State?
Mr. Grossman. Only the State of California.
Mr. Arens. Are you admitted in the Federal courts?
Mr. Grossman. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And when were you admitted in the Federal courts ?
Mr. Grossman. I believe soon after my admission to the bar of Cali-
fornia so far as the Federal district court is concerned in this district.
I was admitted to the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States
at some later time ; I believe around 1940.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6897
]\Ir. Arexs. And as a prerequisite to your admission to practice
law in this State did you take an oath to support and defend the Con-
stitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic?
Mr. Grossman. I don't remember the exact wording of the oath. I
don't think it read the way you describe it. But I took an oath.
Mr. Arexs. Is that substantially the oath you took ?
Mr. Grossman. I would rather not rely on memory.
Mr. Arexs. Did you take an oath to support the Constitution ?
Mr. Grossman. Yes. That I am sure of.
Mr. Arens. At the time you took that oath were you a member of
the Communist party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
• Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on several grounds :
One, the provisions of the first amendment Avhich protect my right
of free speech and free press ;
Two, the protection of the fifth amendment insofar as the answer
to the question might conceivably lead to prosecution ; and
Three, the fact that this committee is engaged in a project which is
a nonlegislative j^urpose, a project to investigate and intimidate the
activities of the people of the United States looking toward amend-
ment of Federal legislation.
So, for those three grounds, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, do you honestly apprehend that
if you told this committee truthfully whether or not you were a mem-
ber of the Communist Party at the time you took an oath and were
admitted to practice law in these courts, you would be supplying in-
foi-mation that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
]Mr. Grossman. Well, I don't read the United States Supreme Court
decisions the way you do, counsel ?
I say that I, in good faith, believe that if I answer this question it
may tend to lead to prosecution of me.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, do you know a man by the name
of Mr. Lou Eosser, R-o-s-s-e-r ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
tlie first and fifth amendments, those particulars of them that I spec-
ified.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rosser took an oath and testified while he was
under oath that you were a Communist, a member of the Young Com-
munist League in 1934.
"Was Mr. Rosser lying or was he telling the truth ?
{ Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on tlie grounds of
the first and fiftli amendments, those parts of those amendments tliat
I have specifically referred to.
Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, Mr. Rosser testified that you were
not only a member of the Young Communist League but you were a
leader of the Young Communist T^eague at Berkeley. Was he lying or
was lie telling the truth ?
]\fr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the same i^ro-
visions of tlie first and fiftli amendments.
]\rr. Arexs. Mr. Rosser continued in his testimony by saying Hint
after lie had known you as a ineni])er of the Young Coninninist League
he knew you as a member of the Communist Part}'.
6898 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
"Was Mr. liosser lying at that point or was ho telling the truth?
Mr. Di{i:yfi's. Excuse lue. Could you tell us -where the testimony
conies from ?
Mr. Akens. I would be very glad to. I am sure Mr. Orossman
knoAvs. It was testimony of December 1, 1953.
Mr. Dreyfus. Before this committee ?
Mr. Arejss. Yes.
Mr. Dreyfus. Thank you.
Mr. Arexs. Now was he telling the truth or was he Ij'ing ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, using as my
grounds the same provisions 1 have referred to, of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now do vou know a man by the name of Dickson,
D-i-c-k-s-o-n, P. Hill?
Mr. Grossman. I would like to ask the committee whether the com-
mittee considers that this man who has been named is a member of, or
affiliated with, any Communist organization.
Mr, Arens. jMr. Chaiiinan, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Do you know a man b}" the name of Dickson P. Hill ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. In the light of the fact that I presume the commit-
tee is not playing games and must be naming this name having some
evidence in mind, or some statement by this person in mind, and in
light of the fact that the committee will not tell me whether or not
they consider this man has such affiliations, I am obliged to decline to
answer this question, basing myself upon the first and fifth amend-
ments as specifically referred to in previous answers.
Mr. Arens. All right. I would like to read you some questions and
answers of Dickson P. Hill while he was under oath before this com-
mittee on Decenlber 2, 1953.
Q. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting where the Duclos letter
was discussed?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was this meeting held, and who was the principal speaker?
A. That was held in San Francisco, when an attorney, I believe, by the name of
Aubrey Grossman, I believe — Grossman, yes
Q. A-u-b-r-e-y?
A. That is right.
Q. G-r-o-s-s-m-a-ii. Is that correct?
A. Yes — and William Schneiderman spoke at that meeting.
Q. Did you know later, at that time or later, Aubrey Grossman to be a member
of the Communist Party?
A. Yes, I did ; I mean through intraparty communications ; yes.
Does that help to refresh your recollection, Mr. Grossman ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answ^er that question on the same
grounds I set out before, relying upon the first and the fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in a little meeting in which you and
William Schneiderman spoke with reference to the Duclos letter?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
AHolation of the first and fifth amendments as specifically referred to
in my previous answers.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Mrs. Bessie Honig, H-o-n-i-g ?
I
COMMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOlSr 6S99
•
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Bessie Honig testified under oath and laid her
liberty on the line and stated while she was under oath that, while
she was a former operative for the FBI in security work, she knew
you as a Communist. Did she lie or did she tell the truth ?
Mr, Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
violation of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness either
invoke the fifth amendment properly or be directed to answer the
question.
Did Mrs. Honig lie or did she tell the truth when she named you
under oath as a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on several grounds :
First, it violates my rights under the first amendment of the Con-
stitution
Mr. Arens. You know it doesn't violate any rights.
Mr. Grossman. Just one minute, please. Just a minute, please.
In particular, because it violates my right of free speech.
I am also entitled to a privilege under the fifth amendment, which
I assert, the privilege of refusing to answer any question which, if
I answer it, might tend to result in a prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite your attention, please, sir.
to several of your activities as evidenced by certain Communist j)ub-
lications. First of all, have you been connected with the Northern
California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on three grounds :
One, that the answer to that question might tend to result in prosecu-
tion. Therefore, I rely on the fifth amendment. No. 2, that my
rights under the first amendment, my right of free speech and the
right to petition Congress for redress of grievances, would be violated
by that question. And, No, 3, that this looks toward a nonlegislative
purpose of this committee ; to wit, the purpose I have previously re-
ferred to, the purpose of attempting to investigate and impede the
activity of the people of the United States looking toward amendment
of legislation in general and, in particular, amendment of the Walter-
McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. In particular what kind of people ?
Mr. Grossman. All kinds of people.
Mr. Arens. You wouldn't say just Communists then ; is that correct ?
Mr. Grossman. I would not.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that in October of 1955 you
were the master of ceremonies at the Festival of Nationalities, held
by the Nortliern California Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born at Berkeley, Calif., at the Finnish Hall, 1819 10th Street.
If that isn't true, deny it while you are under oath.
Mr, Grossman, I decline to answer the question on the same grounds
as my previous answer. Does the chairman of the committee wish me
to itemize again my objections? Because counsel apparently wasn't
satisfied with my brief statement,
Mr, Doyle, Just make it clear you plead the fifth amendment,
Mr, Grossman. All right. Exactly the same grounds as I declined
to answer the previous question.
6900 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
•
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite your attention to the Com-
munist Daily People's World, Thursday, March 22, 1945, and read
you a little article here :
An Institute on World Security, sponsored by the San Francisco Communist
Political Association, will be held here —
that is in San Francisco —
at the St. Francis Hotel.
Among those who are listed as leaders of this world security pro-
gram sponsored by the Communist Political Association is Aubrey
Grossman, identified here as an attorney.
Kindly look at this document and see if that refreshes your recollec-
tion with reference to your participation in this world program under
the auspices, so the article says, of the Coimnunist Political Associa-
tion.
( Document marked "Exhibit No. 586," see appendix, p. 8154.)
( The witness examines document. )
Mr. Grossman. Which part of the page there ?
Mr. Arens. It is marked there. We put the red around the Com-
munist activities.
Mr. Grossman. Thank you.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
tlie first and fiftli amendments.
Mr, Arens. Who was Earl Browder, and what was his line ? Can
you help us on that'^ Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Well, so we don't impede your free speech, we want
vou to speak up freely now and tell us if this account in the Daily
People's World of Thursday, Julv 19, 1945, is truthful.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 587," see appendix, p. 8154.)
Here is what the article says:
California Communists Repudiate Browder Line
State headquarters of the Communist Political Association of California an-
nounced today that a special State convention of the association last Sunday
endorsed the main line of the draft resolution submitted by its national com-
mittee and elected 10 delegates to the special national convention of the asso-
ciation—
and so forth.
And I skip a paragraph or two, and here is what I see. And. for
your enlightenment, I have marked it in red, too.
The Northern California convention elected the following delegates to the
national convention : John Hughes, Steve Nelson, Ray Thompson, William
Schneiderman, .Tolin Morgan, and Mickey Lima —
witli Aubrey Grossman as one of the alternates.
Kindly look at this document and see if it is truthfully setting forth
what liappened, and, if so, kindly tell tliis committee while you are
under oath whether or not you were the alternate delegate to that Com-
munist convention.
(Tlie witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6901
Mr. Grossjean. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. And, comino- up chronolo<Tically with your activities,
we see still another exhibit here from the Daily People's World, Sep-
tember 21, 1945, and this article is entitled :
Communists To Hold Job Rally
All East Bay workers are invited to attend a mass meeting tonight (Friday), 8
p. m., at the Oakland Auditorium Ballroom on "Jobs for All," sponsored by the
Communist Party of Alameda County, CP oflBcials said today.
Then the article goes on and tells us who are going to be speakers
and leaders of that group, including one Aubrey Grossman, identified
here as a labor attorney.
Look at that document and tell us if you can't help the Committee
on Un-American Activities in its legislative purpose of trying to
develop facts so that we can oust the Communist growth.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 588," see appendix, p. 8155.)
Mr, Grossman. Would you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Areks. Yes. Look at that document and see if you can give
us a little information so we can go back to Wasliington and maybe
legislate more on communism.
Mr. Grossman. Is that a question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. I am soliciting your free speech to help this
committee.
Mr. Grossman. Does the committee rule that is a question ?
Mr. Arens. INIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. It is a request for you to cooperate with the committee
if you will.
Mr. Arens. He was protesting that the committee had no legislative
purpose.
Mr. Grossman. Is that a question or a request to cooperate ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I think it is in the form and intent of a question. I
think we understand that.
Mr. Edises. May w^e have the question read ?
Mr. Arens. I will be glad to repeat it.
Mr. Grossman. Let's have it read.
Mr. Arens. Kindly look at this article and see if you can give this
committee information about the activities of the Communists as re-
ported in that article so the committee can have that information when
it goes back to devise more legislation on communism.
Mr. Grossman. Though I don't conceive that to be a question, if it
is a question, I will decline to answer it on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I w ant to invite your attention to still another docu-
ment, the Daily People's World of November 9, 1945, and the head-
line says :
SF Communists Elect Officers
The San Francisco County committee of the Communist Party today announced
its election of officers for the coming year.
85.333— 57— pt. 1 4!t
6902 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
And they list the officers, including Aubrey Grossman wlio was elected
educational director.
Kindly look at this document and tell the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities if you recall that occasion in which you achieved the dis-
tinction of being elected educational director of the Communist Party^
(The witness examines document.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 589," see appendix, p. 8155.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to other occasions
in which you did more freely express yourself and your free speech
wasn't quite so impeded.
In the Communist Daily World of November 17, 1945, we see ar»
advertisement:
What is the role of MacArthur in the Philippines ?
Will the Philippines get their independence in 1946?
What form does U. S. imperialism take in the Philippines?
For answers to these questions, come to Jefferson Park, Turk and Laguna
Streets, Sunday, November 18.
Listed among the people who are going to speak, curiously enough,
is Aubrey Grossman, educational director of the Communist Party.
And this occasion is all under the auspices, according to the adver-
tisement, of the Communist Party of San Francisco.
Kindly look at that document and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether or not you expressd yourself to your listeners and
were introduced in that capacity.
(Document marked 'Exhibit No. 590,", see appendix, p. 8156.)
Mr. Dreyfus. I beg your pardon. What is the question, counsel?
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Dreyfus. I didn't follow the question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you the man that made a speech who was intro-
duced as Aubrey Grossman, educational director of the Communist
Party, as set forth in that publication that you are looking at right
now ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I Avant to invite your attention to still another docu-
ment of this publication, the Dailv People's World of Wednesday,
July 3. 1946.
Here is a little article that probably you can help us on.
Forum Friday on Trolleys, Maritime
The streetcar strike and the maritime situation \Al\ be discussed Friday night
at the first of a series of weekly forums conducted by the Communist Party of
San Francisco.
Aubrey Grossman, educational director of the Communist Party, will lead
the discussion on the streetcar strike.
Look at that and see if you recall a streetcar strike and your leading
the discussion on that unhappy occasion.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 591," see appendix, p. 8156.)
(Tlie witness examines document.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amedments.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6903
Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to still another document,
an advertisement appearing in the Daily People's World of September
1946:
Communist Party Friday Forum, Friday, September 13, 8 p. m.
And tlie subject that is going to be discussed there, according to
this, is :
Is Palestine the Answer?
And the orator who is going to enlighten the listeners is identified
here as Aubre}' Grossman, educational director, San Francisco Com-
munist Party. And the admission is free.
Kindly look at that document, if you please, sir, and tell this com-
mittee while you are under oath whether you are appropriately identi-
fied.
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. And have you, in addition to your educational activities
in the oratorical field, also been a writer? Do you recall any of your
published w^orks?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arexs. I observe here in the Communist Daily Worker of June
1948, that is published, as we all know by the Communist Party, an
article :
Some of Our Fundamental Tasks, by Aubrey Grossman, organizer, Mission Sec-
tion, San Franscisco.
I will read just a little of it here, and see if it refreshes your recollec-
tion.
As the preconvention resolution points out, our party has tremendous tasks
before it. Task I is to stop world war III before it develops. Though the
American peoi)le do not want war, they have been misled into support of the
Marshall plan which constitutes the highway to world war III.
Then I observe here frequent references in the article to "our party"
and:
Our experiences today in the United States demonstrate that "only a party
which has mastei-ed the Marxist-Leninist theory can confidently advance and
lead the working class forward." What is true for the party is true for each
individual member. Marxist-Leninist theory will enable us to "understand
the inner connection of events, to foresee their course, and to perceive not only
how and in what direction they are developing in the present, but how and in
what direction they are bound to develop in the future." That is why we must
study the history of the CPSU.
Tlie ('(Mnmunist Party of the Soviet Union.
AA'hile you are under oath here, Mr. Grossman, won't you unburden
yourself with some of these experiences wliicli you indicated liere
will lead the world toward peace and serve your (xovernment in that
capacity ?
(Document marked "E.xliibit No. 592," see appendix, p. 8157.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossm.\x, Does the chairman rule that is a question ?
Mr. Arens. It is a request if you would kindly do so.
Mr. Grossman. Is it a question ?
6904 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. You have heard what counsel stated. It is a request.
Mr. Arens. Tell us if that is what you said. If it is, tell us all about
this Communist Part}' that you are commending there as the vanguard
of the working class.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. ( trossman. I do not heed the request.
Mr. Arens. Did you write the article appearing in the document
to which I was just alluding and which is now displayed to you?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document here, a list of
signers of a statement defending the Communist Party.
It appears by this article that the Communist Party is being
persecuted in the United States, and its constitutional rights are being
impeded, and apparently the rights of its free speech likewise. A
number of people sign a statement protesting the treatment of this
innocent little party. And in the list of people here who are defend-
ing the Communist conspiracy we see Aubrey Grossman of San Fran-
cisco, Calif.
Kindly look at that and tell the committee whether or not you
recall that enterprise of yourself.
(See exhibit No. 58e, appendix, p. 7192.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. What was the question?
Mr. Arens. Did you sign the statement whicli appears there?
Mr. Grossman. I did.
Mr. Arens. Thank you sir. At whose solitation did you sign it?
Do you recall ?
Mr. Grossman. I have no recollection whatsoever.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to innate your attention to still an-
other document.
Mr. Grossman. Just a minute. I wonder if this may be introduced
in the record.
Mr. Arens. We have a general order, Mr. Grossman, for all of these
documents to be introduced in the record.
Mr. Grossman. Thank you. Would you like to read it ?
Mr. Arens. The next one I will read and we will introduce it in the
record, too.
Mr. Grossman. Would you like this read ?
Mr. Arens. Did I give a fair summary of it ?
Mr. Grossman. Would you like me to read it ?
Mr. Arens. No. It takes too much time. I am not taking time
to read all of this.
Mr. Grossman. You don't want to read it ?
Mr. Arens. I would suggest not.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, may I read it in the record ?
Mr. Arens. It will all be in the record.
Mr. Grossman. All of it is going in the record, but still a good deal
of it has been read by counsel.
Mr. Arens. My mistake. You take issue with me ?
Mr. Grossman. Does the committee not want me to read this in
the record ?
Mr. Doyle. It will all go in the record. I will assure you of that.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6905
Mr. Grossman. May I read it in the record ?
Mr. Doyle. There is no sense in taking 20 or 30 minutes.
Mr. Grossman. It won't take that long.
Mr. Doyle. We will get it all.
Mr. Grossman. Perhaps the press is interested in the statement.
Mr. Doyle. The press can have it and read it. They can use it right
now if they want. Put it over on their table. They can get it.
Mr. Arens. Go ahead and put these others over there, too, please.
Now I want to invite your attention to this one, and see if you want
to take time on this one.
I will read a good deal of this one. It is short. We can cover this
one pretty quickly.
Grossman to Head Coast Civil Rights Congress.
This is in the Daily Worker of January 1949.
Aubrey Grossman, 37-year-old attorney who left an important law practice
to educate and organize in the struggle for human rights, has been appointed
Pacific Coast Director for the Civil Rights Congress.
Grossman, who has been associatetl intimately with the battle for civil
rights in California for more than a decade, said today, upon announcement
of his appointment, his first job will be coordination of the campaign to defend
the twelve indicted Communist leaders whose trial opens in New York January 17.
His biggest civil rights case was the deportation case of Harry Bridges, which
he feels is "a landmark in establishing the rights of non-citizens and the con-
stitutional rights of aliens in general." He also helped establish the invalidity
of autipicketing ordinances and represented hundreds of union members in cases
arisin;;- out of the labor struggles of the 1930's.
Versatile (he played halfback and fullback for UCLA in 1929, 1930, and 1931),
Grossman was one of the founders of the Bay Area Council Against Discrimina-
tion and of its successor, the Council for Civic Unity. He was chairman of the
Lawyers Committee that drew Governor Olson's legislative program in 1939.
He was an active member of the Simon J. Lubin Society, an organization in-
terested in the State's agricultural problems.
He left his law practice in 1915 —
and I want to emphasize the last couple of lines now, if you please,
sir.
He left his law practice in 1945 to become a full-time officer of the Communist
Party of San Francisco.
Now would you kindly look at that article and see if that is a
true
I don't mean to be throwing it at you, Counsel. I am trying to get
it over this wire liere.
Mr. Dreyfus. I appreciate your difficulty here.
Mr. Arens. Kindly look at that article and see if that is a true and
correct biography of your principal activities in the course of the last
several years.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now here is another article that is rather interesting.
It is about the FBI. You know what the FBI is, do you not, Mr.
Grossman ? That is the intelligence
Mr. GuossMAN. The answer is yes.
IMr. Arens. The intelligence agency.
Mr. Grossman. Yes.
6906 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. The greatest intelligence agency that ever existed.
Mr. Grossmax. Is that a question ?
Mr. Arens (reading) :
If the FBI should bother you —
The civil rights expert tells people what to do if this great FBI should
bother them.
This is in the Daily People's World of May 6, 1949.
If the FBI
Mr. DoYi.E. "V\^at was that, please ?
Mr. Arens. The title of this article is :
If the FBI Should Bother You — Civil Rights Expert Tells What To Do
The Civil Rights Congress warned progressives today to beware Federal
Bureau of Investigation agents and their "investigations."
Aubrey Grossman, West Coast director of the congress, said that after thor-
ough discussion with attorneys, the congress was advising those approached by
the G-men to refuse to answer any questions.
"Any person these agents seeli to question or have a discussion with has the
right to refuse to talk to them — "
and so forth. I will not take time to read the entire article.
But do you have a recollection, as the west coast director of the
Civil Rights Congress, of issuing that little instruction to all of the
comrades with respect to how they should react to the FBI ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 593," see appendix, p. 8158.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossbian. I decline to answer the question on the gi-ounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Velde. Just a minute, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Grossman, did you know that you were being investigated by
the FBI?
Mr. Grossman. Did I know when ?
Mr. Velde. You said the FBI, what kind of an organization it was
in answer to a question by counsel.
Did vou know you were beine investigated by the FBI ?
Mr. Grossman. Are you telling me that I was ?
Mr. Velde. No. I am just asking you if you knew whether you
were or not.
I think you know that I know that you are a Communist and that
you were a Communist for a long time because I was a member of
the FBI stationed here in San Francisco back in the days when you
were doing all these things that were designed to destroy our Constitu-
tion.
Mr. Grossman. And what is the question ?
Mr. Velde. Did vou know that vou were being investigated by the
FBI?
fThe witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. When he issued that statement?
Mr. Velde. Yes. That is ricfht.
Mr. Grossman. The answer is "no."
Mr. Doyle. I think tho committee is fortunate to have Mr. Velde's
experience as a former FBI agent on the committee in attendance at
this hearing.
Mr. Arens. Here is a little thing. May I have that exhibit?
Mr. Dreyfus. This one?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVEKSiON- 6907
Mr. Arens. Yes. Has he answered the question with reference to
this ?
Mr. Grossman. The answer is "no.'*
Mr. Arexs. Have you answered the question with reference to the
attack on the FBI?
Mr. Dreyfus. That was answered.
Mr. Grossman. I declined to answer tliat one.
Mr. Arens. Here is somethino: I have a Httle difficulty with. Maybe
.you can help us.
In this exhibit which I have just displayed to you, I see an attack
on the FBI with reference to informers and the like. Then I see here
this question posed under the authorship and byline of Aubrey Gross-
man. Pacific coast refjional director, Civil Rio;hts Congress.
Here is the question :
Do Stool Pigeons Rate Civil Rights Defense?
Could I ask that question ?
In your opinion, do stool ])igeons rate any kind of civil rights?
Or are civil rights onlv for Conmiunists ?
( The witness confers with his counsel.)
]\[r. GRoss3rAN. The question is, Do stool pigeons rate civil rights
defense ?
Mr. Arens. That is right.
Mr. Grossman. The answer is that stool pigeons are generally per-
jurers, are generally paid perjurers, are people, no matter what line
they may tell on the stancl, who need not fear prosecution. And I
can give you the names and the dates and the cases if the committee
wishes to hear it.
Mr. Arens. Do you
Mr. Grossman. Just one minute. Let me finish my answer.
And I say that those people who will perjure themselves under oath
in order to put other Americans in jail or have them deported, who will
lie under oath for those purposes, cannot, under any stretch of the
imagination, deserve civil rights or have their civil rights defended.
As a matter of fact, their civil rights never can come mider attack.
Mr. Velde. "V^Hiat stool pigeon put you in the Communist Party?
Wliolied?
. Mr. Grossman. What are you assuming, Mr. Velde, in your ques-
tion ?
Mr. Velde. You just referred to stool pigeons that lie under oath.
Mr. Grossman. What is the question ?
Mr. Velde. During 1943 and 1944 and 1945, will you tell this com-
mittee whether or not you were a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Grossman. Is that the question now ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a stool pigeon against yourself here when you
wrote this little aiticlc about the comrades and "our party" and what
you are doin g as a comrade ? Were you a stool pigeon then ?
Just answer that question and help us on what is a stool pigeon,
and tell this committee now while you are under oath Avere you a stool
pigeon on yourself?
6908 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. The answer is, I was not a stool pigeon.
Mr. Arens. Were you telling the truth ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want to make a reference to a stool pigeon publication ;
namely, a publication which talks about stool pigeons, and which pub-
lication is written by Aubrey Grossman.
See if you can't help us now and tell us whether or not this publi-
cation and the author of this article was a stool pigeon when he told
stuff about a man by the name of Aubrey Grossman.
This article is in the Communist Daily People's World of July 20^
1949: "Do Stool Pigeons Kate Civil Rights Defense?" And it at-
tacks very vigorously certain Trotskyites.
The article is written by a man by the name of Aubrey Grossman,
Pacific coast regional director. Civil Rights Congress. We have his
photograph here. And, so that you won't have any difficulty finding
it, we have underlined it.
Would you kindly tell the committee whether or not you wrote that
article?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 594," see appendix, pp. 8159, 8160.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. DoTLE. Might I ask, Mr. Arens, does that article contend that
a stool pigeon does have civil rights?
Mr. Arens. It unmercifully attacks Trotskyites.
Mr. Doyle. I always thought that any American citizen, no matter
what he did, no matter who he v/as, had civil rights and had the right
to a defense in court or any place else. I always felt as a lawyer,
and I still feel, that, no matter who the person is, that it was a lawyer's
duty and privilege to represent tliat person to the extent of his civil
rights, whatever they are. I don't know that
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question then?
Mr. Grossman. I was deferring to the chairman. I decline to-
just 1 minute.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, I want to invite your attention to
still another dociunent. It is from the Daily People's World, July
3, 1950.
Grossman to Fill CRC Post in East
Aubrey Grossman, well-known West Coast labor attorney, will leave for New
York this week to take up his new duties as director of organization of the
Civil Rights Council.
Grossman expressed great sorrow at having to leave at the present
time his many friends here on the west coast and the like, and his pic-
ture appears there. He is going to new tasks.
Kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not that Com-
munist publication was a stool pigeon or whether or not what it tells
is true.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 595," see appendix, p. 8161.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Grossman. Would you rephrase the question, please?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6909
Kindly tell us whether or not that publication was a stool pigeon
or was it telling the truth when it said you were going there to the
east to assume your new responsibilities ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to still another document.
This is just before the attack at Pearl Harbor, September 4, 1940.
It is the Communist Daily Worker in New York.
We see here the headline reading as follows : "GB Prominent Lawyers
Hit Draft Bill as un-American, un-Constitutional." And these 63
lawyers are all part of an emergency peace mobilization, and they
go and protest to the House Military Affairs Committee. The sub-
head tells about prominent signers and participants in this emergency
peace mobilization, including one Aubrey Grossman.
Kindly tell us if you recall your participation in that enterprise.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 596," see appendix, p. 8162.)
(The Avitness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gross]max. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. You will observe
Mr. Grossman. Wait a minute. Excuse me. And the additional
grounds that it violates my right to engage in legislative activities
under the protection of the first amendment and the ninth amendment
of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. You were strong for peace and strong for disarma-
ment here on September 4, 1940. Do you recall any change in your
position after Hitler attacked the Soviet Union?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now we see here still another document from the Daily
Worker in 1953.
We are moving along and won't take too much longer, Mr. Gross-
man.
It seems, according to this article, 302 delegates lay plans for a big
May Day parade in New York Cit}'. Among those who are leadei^
in the arranginents, is one Aubrey Grossman of the Civil Riglits
Congress down there. They are going to have a big May Day
parade to coincide Avith the May Day in Moscow.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 597," see appendix, p. 8163.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Now — did you answer the question ?
Mr. Grossman. Was there a question? I thought it was a speech.
Let's have it read back.
Mr. Arens. Why don't you make a speech and tell us whether or not
you were one of the leaders in this May Day parade in New York City?
We don't want to interfere with your freedom or right to petition
Congress or anything else. You just tell us now. Did you do that?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I have still another exhibit from the Communist Daily
People's World: Meet the People Around the Bay, with -reference to
the Council for American-Soviet Friendship and one of its big affairs.
Among those who w^ere participants in the activities of the Council for
American-Soviet Friendship is Aubrey Grossman.
6910 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Kindly look at that document and see if it refreshes your recollec-
tion with reference to your participation in that affair.
(Document marked ""Exhibit No. 598," see appendix, pp. 8163, 8164.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Now I have a document here from the Daily People's
"World about a symposium of the California Labor School and one of
the big forums is going to be on the development of American democ-
racy along certain lines. Participating is going to be Aubrey Gross-
man, attorney for the CIO, member of the legal staff of the National
Association for Advancement of Colored People, and member of the
Council for Civic Unity of San Francisco.
Kindly look at this document and see whether or not you were hon-
estly and accurately identified there in thise symposium at the Cali-
fornia Labor School.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 599," see appendix, p. 8164.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Here is something that is a little curious. We have
here another exhibit from the Communist Daily People's World. It
has a quotation from the father of this country, George Washington :
Promote then as an oJiject of primary importance, institutions for tlie general
diffusion of l^nowleclge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives
force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.
Apparently that is from his Farewell Address. That is here at the
top of the picture. Below that picture we see the following :
Leaders in the arts, professions, as well as the vital-to-labor trade-union field,
make the faculties of the State labor schools outstanding among American edu-
cational institutions. Shown above are (left) Aubrey Grossman, labor attorney
and expert in civic affairs, who'll teach at the San Francisco school —
then they tell about others wlio are going to teach at the California
Labor School in Snn Francisco.
Kindly look at this document and see if you recollect your profes-
sorial activities as recounted there in that Daily People's World.
(Tlie witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
IMr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Gregori Kheifets?
Mr. Grossman. I would ask the committee whether that man is, in
the committee's opinion, affiliated or was affiliated with Communist
groups.
Mr. Arens. Not only that, he has been identified as an espionage
agent. Do you know him ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
]Vfr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy?
('The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first amendment.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6911
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes the
staff interrogation of this witness.
]\Ir. DoTLE. ]Mr. Velde. any questions?
Mr. Velde. Yes, I have several questions.
Mr. Grossman, did you know Gregori Kheifets?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Did .you know that he was the Eussian consul ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fif til amendment.
Mr. Velde. Did you knoAv Steve Nelson ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. T don't think I will be violating the lawyer-client priv-
ilege in asking this question :
What other clients have you represented who have been charged
with violation of any of our internal-security laws besides Mr. Harry
Bridges?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
that it violates the attorney-client privilege.
jVfr. Velde. Noav m.ay I ask you another question.
"What do you expect to gain in the future by being a member of
the Communist Party or member of the Comnninist conspiracy?
Mv. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the ground
that it violates my rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Do you know Louise Bransten, now Louise Berman?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
]Mr. A'elde. Did you, on May 12, 1944, attend a meeting between
Gregori Kheifets, yourself, and John Tripp McTernan, M-c-T-e-r-
n-a-n, at the home of Louise Bransten here in San Francisco?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that c[uestion on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I don't have any more questions to ask
of this witness except to say this much, that I am satisfied that Mr.
Grossman has been identified, and I can identify him, as a former
member of the Communist Party. I am satisfied that he is a member
of the Communist Party at the present time by his demeanor in an-
swering the questions here. As a professional man, I am satisfied that
Mr. Grossman is very dangerous to the internal security of our coun-
try. I hope that the FBI and all the other security agencies that we
have investigating acts that are designed to overthrow our form of
government continue to be on the alert on Mr. Grossman.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions or statement?
]\rr. Scherer. No statement.
You are now a practicing lawyer here ?
Mr. (trossman. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. May I be privileged to just take a minute.
Are you a member of the American Bar Association?
Mr. Grossman. Xo, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to say that your declaration here, that, because
a man was a stool pigeon, in your "judgment he loses civil rights
6912 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Grossman. I didn't say that. I said his civil rights should not
be defended. I said they could never come under attack.
Mr. ScHEREU. He couldn't invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Grossman. He wouldn't.
Mr. ScHERER. He shouldn't have the right.
Mr. Grossman. He wouldn't.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, for instance, under your declaration of
principle as a leader of the Civil Rights Congress in the San Francisco
area, if, in your judgment, a man was a stool pigeon and appeared
before this committee, he wouldn't have the right to advice by an
ethical lawyer to plead either the first or fifth amendments because
you said he wouldn't have a right to defend his civil rights.
I sharply disagree with you. That is a surprise to me. It is a sur-
prise to me that that is the position of the Civil Rights Congress.
I am more afraid of it than I was before.
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer left the hearing room.)
j\Ir. Doyle. I wish to say as an ximerican Congressman, we take the
position, every American citizen, whether he be a stool pigeon or not,
has certain inalienable rights under our constitutional law.
Now, for instance, article I that you plead says :
Congress shall make no law respecting or abridging the freedom of speech
or of the press.
And that applies to a stool pigeon as well as anyone else in our book.
And then under article V of the Constitution, which you plead:
No person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against
himself.
Under your premise, a stool pigeon would not be permitted to be
defended by counsel.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Doyle, I said you have a right to defend a stool
pigeon. I won't.
Mr. Doyle. No, you didn't say that. At least the record will show
what you said.
Mr. Grossman. Let me make my position clear, if it isn't.
Mr. Velde. You will defend members of the Communist conspiracy,
however, won't you, Mr, Grossman?
Mr. Grossman. I will defend anyone whose civil rights are attacked.
I say a stool pigeon's civil rights are incapable of being attacked.
He is alwajrs a friend of those and a friendly witness for those who are
attacking civil rights.
Mr. Doyle. Well, at any rate, I wouldn't feel comfortable presid-
ing over this subcommittee and have a report go back to my colleagues
in Congress showing that we sat in the presence of a lawyer who had
made that declaration of fundamental premise without countering it.
Mr. Velde. I certainly concur with you.
Mr. Doyle. I wouldn't think of it. It is abhorrent to me as a mem-
ber of the bar and as a Congressman.
Now the reason I asked whether or not you were a member of the
American Bar Association is that you pleaded the constitutional privi-
lege. And, assuming that it is in good faith, you should do it. That
is my position no matter who you are. If your plea is in good faith,
you ought to plead it whether you are a stool pigeon or not, if it is in
good faith and in accordance with the first and fifth.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 69 13^
Don't misunderstand this committee. We take the position that the
Communist Party has a right to petition Congress. True. We believe
they should do it in their own name instead of under some phony desig-
nation so that Congress doesn't know that it is the Communist Party.
Even the Communist Party has rights which we are obligated to
uphold and will uphold.
I refer to the brief of the American Bar Association before the
Supreme Court of the United States in the October term, 1955, in the
case of the Communist Party of the United States, petitioner, versus
Subversive Activities Control Board. And I think, in view of the wit-
ness' declaration, I sliould read just a couple of paragraphs of this.
I think that tliis brief represents probably the thinking of the rank
and file of the American bar.
I quote :
Congress Has the Duty and the Power To Enact Laws To Safeguard thb
Security and Welfare of the Nation
There is no purpose or power in government more fundamental than the pro-
tection of the Nation from invasion, domination, or subversion.
The power of Congress to protect our people embraces every phase of national
security. The duty of self-preservation must be exercised within the framework
of the Constitution. The duty and the power of the Congress have well been
restated by this court in Dennis v. United States (341 U. S. 494, by Chief Justice
Vinson at p. 501 ; * * *).
Tliere can be no individual rights or freedoms without national security.
In the light of existing conditions, the Congress would have been derelict in
its duty had it not enacted legislation within its power deemed by it adequate
to protect the national welfare. The country was entitled to protection — not
alibis or epitaphs.
*******
The act is constitutional.
In order to consider the first amendment —
I call this to the witness' attention for the record —
In order to consider the first amendment and due process questions as applied
to petitioner —
parenthetically, the Communist Party of the United States —
it must be done in the proper setting.
Then I read on page 7 :
In this setting, we turn to the first amendment question.
The Communist Party-petitioner's contention that the act violates its freedom
of speech under the first amendment is without merit. Section 1 of the act
eliminates any basis for such argument.
I5y no sane or sound construction of the act can it be deemed to control free-
dom of thought or of speech or to apply to radical espousal or radical organiza-
tions unless they n\< .it fr:»iH the foi'citai douiination of the Comimuiist move-
ment. No organization and no individual — however radical but not so domi-
nated— is encompassed by this act. Nor is any person or organization prevented
from advocating any change, however far reaching, however unsound, however
obnoxious, through change in our Constitution.
Article V of the Constitution provides one of the greatest of all rights — possibly
even the greatest — that of the people to effect any change in our Government
by the adoption of appropriate amendment to the Constitution. Orderly change
in the (iovernnient by choice of the people is not one of the basic concei)ts of
conununism, which espouses rather subversion and violent revolution. In no
country that communism dominates has it achieved power by the free choice of
its people — not even in Russia.
6914 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
I thought it very appropriate, in view of this witness' statement and
the pleas of other people that this committee is violating the freedom
of speech, that we read this because this is right from the horse's
mouth so far as lawyers in America are concerned, the American Bar
Association, in the subject matter of the appearance of the Commmiist
Party of the United States before the Subversive Activities Control
Board in October, last year.
Mr. Doyle. May the witness be excused, I will ask, as far as counsel
is concerned.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Thank you, counsel, for your cooperation.
Mr. Arens. William Heikkila, please come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Helkkila. That's right.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HEIKKILA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LLOYD E. McMUEKAY
Mr. xIrens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Heikkila. ISIy name is William Heikkila. I. live in San Fran-
cisco. My occupation is draftsman.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Heikkila. in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. Yes.
Mr. Arens. May I spell your name so the record is correct, and you
can correct me if it is wrong. -^
H-e-i-k-k-i-1-a, Heikkila? .:v...^>r ••-^-^^^
Mr. Heikkila. That is right. •■••
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel , Mr. Heikkila ?
Mr. Heikkila. lam.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. McMtjrray. Lloyd E. McMurray, 785 Market Street in San
Francisco.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Heikkila, are you connected with the Northern Cal-
ifornia Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
that it violates my rights of the first amendment and also, I feel, on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Heikkila, we have a signature card on the Bank
of America for the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, on which your sij2:nature appears, William Heikkila, as
chairman of the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
COMMtTNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6915
Would you kindly look at that signature card and be good enough
to identify that signature as an authentic reproduction of your own
signatured
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 600a," see appendix, p. 8165.)
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on the same grounds as the last
question.
]SIr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness affixes his signature to a voucher for his per diem,
that part of the document bearing his signature be incorporated in the
record.
!Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 600b," see appendix, p. 8166.)
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Heikkila, I invite your attention to a document re-
produced from an article appearing in a press publication :
Aid to Aliens, Group Picks 24 Directors.
With reference to a 24-member board of directors of the Northern
California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, including
yourself as one of the members of this board of directors.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not that is true
and correct.
(J^ocument marked "Exhibit No. 601," see appendix, p. 8167.)
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. jNIcMurray. Do you know the date of this document ?
Mr. Arens. 1940. In the San Francisco Chronicle.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. My answer is the same as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
I have a copy of the Communist Daily People's World of 1940
on August •''>0 — "Committee Set Up for Foreign Born,"- — listing a
number of people who have participated in the setting up of a com-
mittee called the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, including William Heikkila, identified as of the Finnish
Club, Western District Committee.
Kindly look at this document, if you please, sir, and see if you can
tell us whether or not the facts there are true and correct.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 602," see appendix, p. 8167.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Heikkila, I want to exhibit to you a card of the
Fifth Annual Southern California Conference To Protect the Rights
of Foreign Born [Americans] held at the Alexandria Hotel in March
1955, in Los Angeles, bearing handwritten "William Heikkila," repre-
senting the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Kindly look at that document and see if you can't k.elp this com-
mittee by telling us whether or not you were he and in attendance
representing the Northern California (Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 603," see appendix, p. 8168.)
(Tlie witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
6916 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on tlie same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I have a certified copy here of a document signed
by you and in the custody and control of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service on a form for petition for naturalization.
In tliis form we see the following :
Question No. 26 :
During the last 10 years I have been a member of the following organizations :
International Workers Order, United Office and Professional Workers, Federa-
tion of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians, CIO — Communist
Party.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not that is a
true and correct representation or reproduction of a document which
you signed in your application for naturalization.
(Document marked "Plxhibit No. 604,"' see appendix, pp. 8169-8173.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline on the same grounds as previously.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I was born in Finland.
Mr. Arexs. When did you come to the United States ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. 1906.
Mr. Arens. Were you naturalized as a citizen ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Heikkila. I have not yet been naturalized.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. How old were you when you came to this comitry ?
Mr. Heikkila. 21^ months.
JVIr. Velde. You came here with your parents ?
Mr. Heikkila. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. You have been here then — AMien was it you came? In
1906?
Mr. Heikkila. 1906.
Mv. Velde. You have been here .50 years continuously. Or have
you made any trips back to Finland or other places outside of the
United States?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Velde. You have been here that long and never made any at-
tempt to gain citizenship?
INTr. Mc^IiRRAY. Is that a question?
Mr. Velde. Yes. Is that right?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. That is not correct.
Mr. Velde. Will you state what is correct then, please?
^Ir. Heikkila. I have made several attempts to become naturalized.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX 6917
Mr. Vfxde. What lias been the reason for 3'our not being able to
become a citizen?
(The witness confers with his connseL)
Mr. ITeikkila. I have made two attempts to become a citizen. The
first time I was unable to fnlfill my papers because of the fact that
I was wandering around the country during the depression. And my
papei's at the present time are not yet finislied.
Mr. Velde. You mean one application was made during the de-
pression. When was that made ?
Mr. Heikkila. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. Velde. Did you actually file an application ?
Mr. Hetkkiea. Certainly.
Mr. Velde. I still can't understand why the application wasn't rec-
ognized, why it wasn't honored by the courts.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. IIeikktla. The application, as far as I know, was recognized
and honored.
Mr. Velde. Then why is it necessary for you to file a new applica-
tion '?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. Because the time expired on my first application.
Mr. Velde. I see. Now you are filing a new application at the
present time?
Mr. Heikkila. It is pending.
ISIr. Velde. On that application have you answered the question as
to whether Go ahead.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. iSlcMuKRAY. I think thei-e is no question pending now. I be-
lieve that we interrupted you.
Mr. Velde. No. I wanted him to confer with you.
On your present application have you answ^ered the question as to
whether you are a Communist Party member or not?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions?
Mr. Scherer. Pursuing the line of questioning started by Mr. Velde,
I am wondering whether the application I have before me is your last
applicatioiL This is dated March 7, 1945. Is that your last appli-
cation ?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Now you said you made a number of applications.
I think the witness must answer.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. I think we are entitled to have a frank answer.
You made a statement that you made a number of applications.
Mr. Scherer has ijjiven you the date of the one before him. We are
certaiidy entitled in good faith to have a statement of the date of your
last application ; aren't we ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my
question.
85.^33 — 57— pt. 1 50
6918 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I have made no claim to have made a number of
applications.
Mr. Velde. I think the record will show that you didn't answer
my question that way.
He tried a number of times to become a citizen. He didn't say he
made application, but he said he tried a number of times to become a
citizen.
Mr. ScuERER. How many applications have you made ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I feel like I wish to decline to answer the question,
on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. I think he should be directed to answer that question,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr, Doyle. Yes. I thought he heard me direct him to answer that
question before.
If you didn't, I now direct you to answer that question as to how
many applications you have made for American citizenship.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. We have one for 1945. Are there any after that?
JNIr. Heikkila. I am standing on my privilege under the fi.fth
amendment.
Mr. Schekek. Didn't I uriderstand you to say before, Witness, that
you had attempted a number of times to become a citizen, and then
later you said you made 2 applications for citizenship, and 1 is pending
now?
Is my recollection of the testimony correct ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. You mean it would incriminate you to say now
whether that was your testimony before this committee ? How could
that possibly incriminate you ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Nevertheless, that is my recollection of the testimony.
Mr. Doyle. I think it is correct, Mr. Scherer.
We might have to come back here tomorrow morning after we get
the public record and order you back again tomorrow morning be-
cause if you made application in San Francisco it is a public record.
Mr. Velde. In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest
this, that if he doesn't come back and if he hasn't filed the application
for citizenship, as he has testified he has so filed, there is a possibility
that he has committed perjury, and this record should be referred to
the Department of Justice.
Mr. Scherer. Let me ask you :
It is my recollection, you said you made 2 applications and that
1 is now pending and hasn't been acted upon.
Were both of those applications made here in the San Francisco
area?
^The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6919
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. ScriERER. In this application you stated that you had not been
absent from the United States ? Is tliat the reason you feel that your
answer might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Heikkila. I believe in good faith that I may claim the fifth
amendment on this question.
Mr. Scheher. When you made this application on March 7, 1945,
liad you been absent from the United States prior to that date since
your first admission to this country ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I must decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
^Ir. Scherer. Have you left the United States since the date of
making this application ; namely, March 7, 1945 ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I must decline to answer this question on the same
grounds as previously.
Mr. Scherer. When you made this application on March 7, 1945,
did you tell the truth?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila, Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you mean to tell us today, sir, that you are refusing
to tell tliis committee whether or not you were telling the truth when
30U signed the affidavit on ]March 7, 1945, to this application?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. I may not have it clear.
What did you say was the present status of your application for
citizenship ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
]V[r. Scherer. I should have been listening perhaps more attentively.
I didn't get what he said was the reason his application had not been
acted upon.
Mr. Velde. He refused to answer that on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Did he ?
(The committee confers.)
Mr. Scherer. It is difficult to understand how an application could
be pending for 11 years. I was wondering whether there was a subse-
quent application.
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Scherer, Are you under deportation order now ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Then that is the reason your application for citizen-
ship has been held up ; isn't it ?
(Tlie witness confei-s with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Rather than the reason you gave us before.
(The witness confers with liis counsel.)
6920 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Heikkila. I think that question calls for some knowledge of
law, and I am not a lawyer.
Mr. Doyle. You have an able one by your side.
Mr. SciiEEER. Well, I can't go any further than that in my exami-
nation, not knowing whether this was the last ap])lication or the first
one he made. ^Nlaybe we can find out from Mr. Wheeler.
ISIr. Doyle. May I make this brief observation to the committee
while we are on that point :
It seems to me that legislatively under Public Law 601 we ought to
consider whether or not we are going to recommend to the Immigra-
tion Committee some consideration of how many years a person, in
the judgment of the official United States, a committee of Congress or
of the Justice Department, after having his rights exhausted, can
stay in the United States under protracted applications for citizen-
ship. If this is the last one, Mr. Scherer, then this gentleman has
been here 11 years since his last application.
Assuming that the evidence before us is true and correct, it is too
long in my book for a member of the Communist Party to be able to
stay in the United States if he is an alien, after he has been identified
as a Communist. That is the Avay I look at it, sir. We ought to look
into that in the field of legislation.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cleophas Brown, kindly come forward.
Mr. McMuRRAY. Is the witness excused?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, the witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Remain standing, please, while the chairman admin-
isters an oath to you, Mr. Brown.
Mr. DoYLE. Please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnl}^ swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Brown. Yes.
Mr. DoTLE. Thank you. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF CLEOPHAS BEOWN, ACCOMPAmED BY COUNSEL,
LAWRENCE SPEISER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Brown. My name is Cleophas Brown. I live in Richmond,
Calif. I work in construction.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties?
Mr. Brown. Yes.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Brown. I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself.
Mr. Speiser. Lawrence Speiser, staff counsel, American Civil Liber-
ties Union of Northern California.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6921
Mr. Akexs. Are you connected with the Los Angeles Committee
ior Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr, Broavn. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Brown. I refuse to answer that under the right and privileges
granted to me under the fifth amendment, as well as my right to free
spe(?ch and to rhe right to aspemblo, to petition the Government, the
privilege granted to me under the first amendment of the Constitu-
tion of the L'nited States.
Mr. Arens. Xow we display to you a letterhead of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, of February 1954, and an-
otlier one of August 1954, in which your name appears as one of
the officials of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Kindly look at that and tell this committee, if you would, please,
sir, if you are appropriately and properly identified there.
(See exhibits Nos. 464 and 4P>3, appendix, pp. 7898 and 7858.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Brown. What are you referring to here ?
Mr. Arens. The letterhead where your left thumb is, about where
your name appears.
Mr. Brown. LTnder the list of sponsors ?
Mr. Arens. That is right ; yes. Do you see your name there ?
Mr. Brown. I decline to respond to the question, based on the rights
I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Charles David
Blodgett?
Mr. Brown. At the expense of appearing repetitious
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Brown. I wish to decline on the rights and privileges I have
heretofore stated.
_Mr. Arens. Charles David Blodgett took an oath before this com-
mittee December 3, 1953, and he identified you as a member of the
Communist conspiracy. Was Blodgett lying or was he telling the
truth?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Brown. I refuse to associate myself w^ith tliat testimony on
the grounds that it would tend to incriminate myself to respond to it.
Mr. Arens. Now I have here in my hand the proceedings of the
Southern California Conference To Defend the Eights of Foreign
Born [Americans] held in Los Angeles in 1953 under the auspices of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. A num-
ber of people are listed here to give reports of various committees, in-
cluding Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown.
Please look at this document and tell this committee while you are
under oath w^hetheryou aretlie Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown w^ho made
that report before the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born in that conference.
Mr. ScHERER, What was the date of that memorandum ?
6922 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. What is the date on there, Counsel ?
Mr. Speiskr. February 7, 1953.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 605," see appendix, pp. 8174-8177.)
( The witness examines document and confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Could you help us by seeing if that document refi'eshes
your recollection ?
Mr. Brown. I decline ; same grounds as previously.
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the letterhead
of the Los Angeles chapter of the National Negro Labor Council, presi-
dent Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown.
Look at this document and see if you are properly designated, and
tell this committee while you are under oath whether or not that
document truly and correctly and accurately represents the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 606," see appendix, p. 8178.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Brow^n. I decline under my privileges granted under the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a document, the Communist Dailv People's
World.
The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born today announced
a conference on the campaign to repeal the AValter-McCarran law and defend
victims of the legislation.
Joining in the sponsorship of tliis conference, according to this pub-
lication is Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown.
Please look at the publication and tell this committee while vou
are under oath if you are accuratelv described there in that enterprise.
( See exhibit No. 439, appendix, p. 7863. )
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
]\fr. Brown. I decline on the same grounds I previously mentioned.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, this letterhead of the Los Angeles Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born, dated February 15, just last
year, 1955 : you are listed on that letterhead as one of the sponsors of
the organization.
Was the organization last year listing you improperly as a sponsor?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Scherer. Because you have testified you are not now a member
of the comm.ittee.
Mr. Brown. I decline to respond to that question or any other prior
associations on the grounds I have heretofore stated.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreigii Born last year?
(The witne^ss confers with his counsel.)
IMr. Scherer. You state you are not as of this moment.
Mr. Brown. Under the pain of continuing to be repetitious, I am
forced to decline on the grounds I have already stated.
^Ir. Scherer. Last week were you a member ?
Mr. Broavn. The same answer.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member at the time, or were you a sponsor
of tlie Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born on the
date that you received your subpena to testify before this committee?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6923
Mr. Brown. I decline on the same grounds that I have heretofore
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I have three documents I want to exhibit to you
Firet, is an invitation to a reception for the Northwest Smith Act De-
fendants, April 4, 1953. Among the sponsoi-s of this group is listed :
Cleophas Browni, president, National Negro Labor Council.
(See exhibit No. 441, appendix, pp. 7865.)
Mr. Areks. The second document is a reproduction of an article in
the Daily People's World of April lOoO, with reference to an East
Bay Civil Rights Congress supporting the Communist Party May
Day rally there. It shows the pledge of support by Cleophas Brown,
identified as executive secretary to the CRC chapter.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 607," see appendix, p. 8179.)
Mr, Arens. The third document is a Nonpartisan Committee for
Clemency for the Rosenbergs, and among the sponsors of this com-
mittee— Cleophas Brown.
(Document marked 'Exhibit No. 608," see appendix, p. 8180.)
INIr. Arexs. Look at those three documents and tell this committee
if you are accurately and properly identified in those documents.
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Broa\'n. ]Maybe I can save some time by declining to respond to
any of the documents on the grounds heretofore stated.
Mr. Arexs. Also in the Dail}^ World of December 21, 1945, we see
Cleophas Brown identified as the circulation manager for the Daily
People's World in Richmond.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 609," see appendix, p. 8181.)
(Representative Harold 11. Velde returned to the hearing room ar
this point.)
Mr. Arexs. Kindly look, first, at this one document about the fight
against anti -Communist legislation, and, secondly, this document
with respect to your identification as circulation manager of the
Communist Daily People's World in Richmond, and tell this com-
mittee if you are accurately and appropriately described.
(The Avitness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
]Mr. Browx. I decline to ansvrer; the same grounds I have hereto-
f o]-e claimed.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogation of this v.'itness.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Veij)e. No questions.
Mr. DoYi.E. ISIr. Scherer ?
Mr, Sgiierer. No questions.
Mr. DoTLE. No questions.
The witness is excused.
(Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle, Harold
H. Velde and Gordon H. Scherer.)
Mr, Arexs, Mr, Arnautoff, A-r-n-a-u-t-o-f-f .
Mr. Arnautoff, would you come forward, please, and remain stand-
ing while the chairman administers an oath to j'ou?
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mr. Arxautoff. I do.
6924 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR ARNAUTOIT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
NORMAN LEONARD
Mr. Akens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Arnautoff. Victor Arnautoff, Colma, Calif. ; artist-teacher.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities ?
Mr. Arnautoff. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Arnautoff. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Leonard. Norman Leonard, 240 Montgomery Street, San
Francisco.
Mr. Arens. Where is the establishment in which you teach ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Stanford University.
Mr. Arens. Do you teach at Stanford University now ?
Mr. Arnautoff. No. At present I am on leave of absence.
Mr. Arens. That is sabbatical leave ?
Mr. Arnautoff. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And where is it that you engage in your artist work ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I work at home.
Mr. Arens. What do you teach at Stanford when you do teach
there?
Mr. Arnautoff. Live drawing, painting. That is figure drawing,
elementary and advanced; painting and printing processes.
Mr. Arens. Are you on the staff at Stanford now but just in a leave
status ?
Mr. Arnautoff. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. "Wliere were you born ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I was born in Russia.
Mr. Arens. Where in Russia ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Ukraine.
Mr. Arens. And when?
Mr. Arnautoff. 1896.
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Arnautoff. First I came in 1925 as a student, and was a student
in California School of Fine Arts.
Mr. Arens. When did you last come to the United States?
Mr. Arnautoff. I believe it was in 1931.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. When did you obtain citizenship ?
Mr. Arnautoff. 1937.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person b}' the name of Dorothy M.
Jeffers, J-e-f-f -e-r-s ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6925
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. Do you have any evidence that she is a member
of the Communist
Mr. Arens. You just tell us whether or not you know a Dorothy M.
Jeffers.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. In view of the fact that the committee didn't an-
swer my question. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the
witness be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that last question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I request the committee once more, the committee
tell me if this pei-son mentioned has afliliation, Communist affiliation.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I want the record to be absolutely sure •
that this witness is now ordered again to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I make that direction and order. Witness, again.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. In view of refusal of committee to make the state-
ment, I decline to answer the question on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Witness, do you know the person named by
counsel as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Arnautoif , Dorothy M. JefFers took an oath before
the Subversive Activities Control Board in January of this year, and
testified. She took an oath. She said, in effect, that while she was a
member of the Communist Party she knew you as a member of the
Communist Party, and that she attended Communist Party cell meet-
ings with you in which only Communists were admitted.
Was Dorothy M. Jeffers lying or was she telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counse].)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. She said also that you attended the Marxist-Leninist
Institute. Was she lying about that or was she telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
^ ]Mr. Arens. Do you know anything about the California Labor
Scliool ? Have you ever been there ? The California Labor School ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. Same answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now this young lady, Dorothy M. Jeffers, said that
you were one of the persons affiliated there with the California Labor
School via the Marxist-Leninist Institute. Is that correct?
( The witness confers witli his counsel . )
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to certain docu-
ments. The first is the 24th [Annual] National Conference held under
6926 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
the auspices of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born in Los Angeles, December 8 and 9, 1956. That is just a day or so
ago.
I have a list here of a number of people who are going to sponsor
this conference in Los Angeles — we just came from there — includ-
ing Dr. Victor Arnautoff .
Now I want you, while you are under oath, to tell this committee
if you were one of the sponsors of this conference lield in Los Angeles
just yesterday or day before yesterday.
(See exhibit VIII, appendix, pp. 8440-8405.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
^Vlr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mr. Arnautoff. Just a minute.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
• Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Arens, could I interrupt right at that point, pleaSe.
Did you know that the executive secretary of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, the present executive
secretary, was convicted over 2 years ago before an American jury
in Los Angeles in the Federal court for violation of the Smith Act,
which deals with the advocacy and teaching of force and violence to
overthrow this Government ? ^ Did you know that ? That is this com-
mittee that you apparently are a sponsor of, so far as the printed
literature is concerned.
( The Avitness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Arnautoff. I must decline to answer that question, on the same
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you think it would make any difference if he did?
Mr. DoTLE. I would think it would make a difference with a man of
this broad education, who was a sponsor of a committee for two
years and a half. He should be charged with knowledge, certainly as
a sponsor of this committee, that he is helping to raise money to pay
the salary of a convicted Communist in the United States courts.
Mr. SciiERER. It might make a difference with some individuals, but
this witness himself has been identified as a Communist.
Mr. DoYLE. Granted. But he is also on leave from a great univer-
sity. It should make a difference.
Mr. Arens. Is it Dr. Arnautoff?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. No. It is Mr. Arnautoff.
Mr. Arens. Are you sometimes alluded to as Dr. Arnautoff ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. Not as far !\s T know.
Mr. Arens. See if this helps you.
This is an open proclamation by the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. A number of people are protesting the
McCarran-Walter Immigration and Nationality Act, or the immigra-
tion laws, I should say, including Dr. Victor Arnautoff of San
Francisco.
Look at that and see if you recall joining in that enterprise.
^ See footnote, p. 6823.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6927
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 610," see appendix, p. 8182.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel).
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you a document, the Daily "Worker of April
1053. It has a picture of Senator McCarran there, whom I knew per-
sonally as one of the greatest patriots that this country ever produced.
The caption of this says: "McCarran Law Repeal Urged by 93
Notables. "* They have a list of things that these 93 notables want done
as announced by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Among those 93 notables who are urging the repeal of the Walter-
McCarran Act, is Dr. Arnautoff.
Look at that and see if vou recall joining in that enterprise on
April 3, 1953.
(See exhibit No. 344a, b, appendix, pp. 7710, 7711.)
Mr. Arxautoff. Would you mind to restate the question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Did you signi tliat letter ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have a letter that is addressed to Congressmen, It
is addressed to the then chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee
of the United States, and also to the then chairman of the House Judi-
ciary Committee, in "Washington, D. C, stating that there is an aroused
public sentiment against the "Walter-McCarran law that exists all over
the country, and, in widespread opinion, the law is racist, discrimina-
tory, and inhuman, and must be corrected and repealed.
Among those that signed this letter to the two committees of the
Congress is Dr. "Victor Arnautoff, San Francisco. Did you sign that
letter ?
(See exhibit No. 169a, appendix, p. 7400.)
( The witness examines document and confers Avith his counsel.)
]\Ir. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another exhibit, the 20th Anniversary
National Conference of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, to be held in Chicago, bearing the name of "Victor
Arnautoff as one of the sponsors.
Look at this document and see if you could kindly verify the au-
thenticitv of vour identification there.
(See exhibit III, appendix, pp. 8303-8316.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
' Mr. Arens. Now the Daily People's World of October 1952, tells
about a committee that was formed to get bail for Martin Young, a
Citizens' Committee to Secure Bail for Martin Young. And it issues
a statement urging bail for this man. He was held on Ellis Island as
a C^ommunist. California signers, according to this, include Victor
M. Arnautoff.
6928 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Look at that and see if you recall signing that petition.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 611," see appendix, p. 6182.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another one: "280 National Lead-
ers Ask Truman Amnesty for Jailed Communists.'-
The Communist Daily Worker of December 1952.
An appeal requesting the President to grant amnesty to the leaders of the
Communist Party convicted under the Smith Act has been made by 280 promi-
nent Americans.
Among those 28<> prominent Americans who made this appeal, ac-
cording to this publication, Daily Worker, is Dr. Victor Arnautoff,
who is identified as the president of the Russian-American Society
in San Francisco.
Were you president of the Kussian- American Society in San
Francisco ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 612," see appendix, pp. 8183, 8184.)
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another one: "S. F. Notables Score
Violation of Eights" in which a number of people are scoring the vio-
lation of rights because of witch hunts, the general tenor being that
the congressional committees, such as this committee, are engaged in
witch hunts when they are going out after Communists. Among those
that are doing all this scoring of the violation of rights are certain
professors, including Victor Arnautoff.
Look at this and see if you are one of those that were out to score
this committee and other committees because of their witch hunts.
(Se exhibit No. 526b, appendix, p. 8033.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. Would you mind to restate the question ?
Mr. Arens. Is that you who signed that statement there?
Mr. Abnautoff. I decline to answer, on the same groimds.
Mr. Arens. For whom do you do this artistic work of yours? A
firm or establishment, corporation, or somebody that engages you to
produce these artistic creations ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I am free-lancer working for myself.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked for the government agencies here
in California, any government agencies ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I do not recall that I have.
Mr. Arens. Have your works been exhibited in the San Francisco
area by the San Francisco Art Commission ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. I have here a photograph of one of your creative enter-
prises. It is with reference to the Vice President of the United States.
COMMUlSriST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6929
According to this article here, you had a little creative work of yours
in the artistic field of the Vice President, in which you show him
depicted here with a pumpkin in one hand and a mask over his face
and a smear brush in the other.
Can you tell us, now that you have been identified as a member of
the Communist Party, whether or not you authored or are the artist
who created that little work?
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 613," see appendix, p. 8185.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sgiierer. They still resent the pumpkin papers, don't they ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Would you mind to restate the question?
Mr. Arexs. Xo. I would like to have it just like it is now.
In view of the fact that the record now shows that you have been
identified by a live witness under oath as a member of the Communist
conspiracy, would you now tell us: Are you the author, are you the
artist who created that little creative effort there? That picture is
the Vice President with a smear brush in his hand ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arxautoff. I made that picture appear.
Mr. Arexs. And at the time you w^ere painting that picture were
you a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the gi'ounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. And did you paint this picture smearing the Vice Presi-
dent of the United States under direction of the Communist Party of
the United States ?
(The witness confers w^ith his counsel. )
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question, also on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Are j'^ou at this instant a member of the Communist con-
spiracy ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. Same answer ; same reasons.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Velde, any questions?
Mr. Velde. I have no questions, but make the same observation I
did with reference to Mr. Grossman's testimony here.
This witness — Mr. Arnautoff — has been a well-known Communist
here on the west coast for a long time. And I have had previous ex-
perience with him when I was an agent of the FBI here in the Bay
area back in 1943, 1944, and 1945.
Any professional man, as I said before, is in a position to do much
harm to our country, as I am sure this witness is, and he would do
harm to this country if he had the opportunity.
Mr. SciiERER. Did you receive any pay for drawing this cartoon
of the Vice President ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I did not receive any pay for drawing the picture.
6930 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. Did you get any compensation, either directly or
indirectly, from the Communist Party for drawing this picture?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I don't know what "directly or indirectly" means.
Would you mind to restate your question specifically ?
Mr. ScHERER. Did you collaborate with anybody in the Communist
Party with reference to the drawing of this picture ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I made that picture myself, period.
Mr. Scherer. Did you have any discussion with any member of
the Comnmnist Party about the making of the picture ?
I didn't say that you didn't actually draw it.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. It is obvious that the Communist Party had a hand^
in addition to your Communist hand, in the preparation of that car-
toon.
The Communist Party has been after Dick Nixon ever since he un-
covered the pumpkin papers. It has been continuing until this very
moment by Communists such as you. They resented it when Nixon
as a member of this committee, uncovered their fair-haired boy
Alger Hiss, and the long list that followed him; those who attempted
to subvert the Government of the United States for a foreign power.
And you are continuing. We have always said it, and here is proof
of it.
Mr. Velde. I would like to ask did you get a personal satisfaction
out of drawing that smear picture ?
Mr. Scherer. Sure. Obviously. He got a personal satisfaction
out of it noAT. He thinks it is funny.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Well, beneath the cartoon it says this :
Drawn by Victor ArnautofC, Stanford University art instructor. It was
ordered removed from art exhibit.
I should think it would be.
Mr. Velde. How long have you been a professor at Stanford ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I have been in since 19 — professor. I got a pro-
fessorship, I believe, during the war. I do not remember
Mr. V'elde. All your teaching experience ?
Mr. Arnautoff. All my teaching? The firet was summer session,
1937.
Mr. Scherer. Were you on the board that selected the artists for
this work of art in the post office that has been an undertaking?
( The w itness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. The WPA artists. Was that it?
Mr. Scherer. AVhat did they call it?
Mr. Arnautoff. Yes, I was a member of the jury.
Mr. Scherer. A member of the jury that made the selection of the
artist who was to do the job? Or the artist who would do the job?
Ml'. Arnaitoff. Correct.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6931
Mr. Arens. In this picture what is the significance of this pumpkin
that shows up in the work that you portrayed ?
(The witness confers with his counseh)
Mr. Arnautoff. I don't think that my work as an artist is the
proper concern of this committee.
Mr. Arens. Did you learn about this pumpkin through Communist
Part^- channels i
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHEREK. When did you say you were naturalized?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arnautoff. I believe it was 1937.
Mr. ScHERER. And you were born in Russia.
I am going to suggest, if it has not already been done, that
the testimony of this witness be referred to the Department of Jus-
tice to consider the possibility of commencing denaturalization pro-
ceedings.
Mr. Velde. I certainly agree with you, and concur Avith you in that,
Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. No ; thank you, sir.
j\Ir. Doyle, The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of all witnesses at the San Francisco
hearings.
Mr. Doyle. Before the committee proceeds further. I want to take
about 2 minutes, and I feel it is appropriate. And I do hope that
you people will remain in your chairs just for a moment as a matter
of courtesy. It will be helpful to us. The committee is not yet ad-
journed, and we w^on't be more than 2 or 3 minutes.
I want to publicly thank, first, on behalf of the congressional com-
mittee, the distinguished Federal jurist. Judge Roche, in whose court-
room we have met, and his staff; the United States marshal in San
Francisco and his able staff ; the San Francisco Bay area press which
has been, as always, very courteous and cooperative with us in trying
to get the facts ; tlie gentlemen in the room who have been in control
of the communications system; the local police and also the local
sheriff's office as well as the other police officials in this area who have
cooperated with us.
I want, also, to commend the members of the bar who appeared be-
fore us yesterday and today. And it is a might happy situation we
find ourselves in, able to commend every member of the bar who has
a])])eared l)efore us for his cooperation with the rules of the committee,
I think with the exception of one.
Mr. Scherer. I was going to say I don't concur.
Mr. Doyle. And I wish to say that the committee has specifically
noted times when members of the San Francisco bar, in the chair by
their witnesses, have deliberately cooperated, that their witnesses
might be brief and yet protect his rights, and also that the witness
might observe the rules of the committee. We appreciate that, mem-
6932 COMRIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
bers of the bar, because all three of us are members of the bar in our
respective States.
These hearings of a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American
Activities have impressed the subcommittee as among the most con-
structive we have had during this current series of investigations.
The testimony of customs officials who appeared here, together with
that of Mr. Caldwell, demonstrates further the concerted global
Connnunist propaganda campaign being directed against the people
of the United States within the United States as to their constitutional
form of government.
It is apparent that legislative action must be undertaken to require
labeling of the flood of Communist propaganda that is coming into
this country, the distribution of which is being financed to a consider-
able extent by the subsidies of the American taxpayers.
The information which we have received here shows the problem is
an extremely extensive one and that the west coast of the United States
ranks with the east coast as the target for subversive Communist
material.^
We have also received testimony that confirms further the nation-
wide pattern of Communist political subversion directed against
the security laws of the United States. Sworn testimony of the wit-
nesses before this committee during the past 2 days shows conclusively
again that the Communist Party in the United States has no concern
with the genuine merits of Federal legislative statutes or action but
is seeking solely to enlist the American people in a fraudulent cam-
paign through Communist Party fronts which would, if successful,
denude our Nation of every legal and constitutional defense it has
against the subversive consoirators who serve the Kremlin.
And at this point may I interpolate and say I certainly want to em-
phasize how very much we appreciate the cooperation of the listening
public who have been in the courtroom with us yesterday and today.
I want you to know that we appreciate yoiu* cooperation with the
committee in order that the witnesses and counsel could be heard.
It is tragically apparent that there exists a number of American
citizens who would deliberately pervert our democratic procedures in
the enterprise of international Communist conspiracy. It is absolutely
necessary that the Congress of the United States can recognize and be
able to know who all the people are and all the interests are who peti-
tion the United States Congress so we can identify their respective
interests and, by being able to do so, legislate more intelligently and
with more justice and so we can separate those who have patriotic mo-
tiv^es under our laws and institutions and who defend and perpetuate
the American constitutional form of government as distinguished
from those who knowingly are subservient to the subversive, diabolical,
Communist international conspiracy to disregard and destroy con-
stitutional privileges and for changing our United States Constitution
which guarantees our American civil rights, and substitute therefor,
as our high courts have uniformly held, a foreign Communist dictator-
ship under the control of a foreign Soviet ideology which is now and
for several weeks last past has been actually murdering thousands of
Hungarian men and women and children seeking freedom from the
international Communist control.
' See Investigation of Communist Propaganda in the United States — Part 3 (Foreign
Propaganda — Entry and Dissemination in San Francisco, Calif., Area) December 10-11,
1956.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6933
The committee stands in adjournment.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. May I make a few very brief remarks, please?
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mr. Velde. First of all, I want to compliment you, Mr. Doyle,
for your extreme fairness and courtes}'^ shown to all witnesses here,
and the tolerance that you have had, and which you have maintained
throughout these committee hearings.
I want to say that it lias been nice to be back in San Francisco again.
I haven't been here siiu e 1953 when we held our hearings here before,
as you remember.
Mr. Doyle. I do.
Mr. Velde. And I appreciate the courtesy of the people of San
Francisco shown the committee.
I want to say to Mr. Scherer that I have certainly enjoyed serving
on this committee with him liere and in Los Angeles and in Chicago.
As you know, I have chosen not to run for reelection, and will not
be with you again when you convene in the 85th Congress. But I do
ask, for the good of America, that you continue the great work — ■
and this goes for all the rest of the members of the Committee on Un-
American Activities — that has thus far so nobly been advanced.
Especially, Mr. Scherer, as you were mentioning this morning, I
think it is vital that legislation be passed so that witnesses like Lou
Goldblatt can be successfully prosecuted for contempt of Congress.
To me it is ridiculous and absurd that any witness before this com-
mittee can attack either the counsel or members of a committee, using
profanity, as this Lou Goldblatt has done.
Certainly, if he had been in a court of law, as we all know, he would
have been thrown in jail right now without benefit of further ar-
gument.
Then I would like to say this with respect to our committee counsel,
Kichard Arens and other members of the committee staff :
He has, as we all are aware, great astuteness and legal ability, and
I want to compliment him on his patience in handling the witnesses
here today. I think he demonstrated that in handling the witness
Goldblatt very successfully; also Bill Wheeler and Don Appell, who
are the oldest in point of service as investigators of this committee.
As you know, Bill Wheeler has been out on the west coast for a number
of years. Through his friendliness and contacts with various intelli-
gence agencies, police officers, and United States marshals on the west
coast, he has done a great service to this community to bring informa-
tion that would enable this committee to operate more successfully.
And then to Jackson Jones, an investigator on this connnittoe, who
has been very instrumental in handling these San Francisco hearings,
and Richard Weil. They are also to be commended. And, fmalTy,
last but not least, to our very able reporter, Don Johnston, who I
imagine was frustrated a number of times.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?
85333— 57— pt. 1 51
6934 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. I had not intended to say anything, but I came to the
Congress and this Committee on Un-American Activities when Harold
Velde was chairman of this committee during the 83d Congress.
Harold, I might say that this is the last committee session that you
are participating in as a Member of Congress. Needless to say, you
have rendered a tremendous service to the community and the Nation
during your membership on this Committee on Un-American
Activities.
I regret exceedingly, and I know both Republicans and Democrats
on this committee regret, that you have seen fit to leave the Congress:
The country owes you a great debt of gratitude for your splendid
service.
Mr. Doyle. May I cordially join Mr. Scherer in his remarks about
the gentleman from Illinois.
May I just say to you folks who are in the room with us, this is an
illustration of one of your committees functioning. I am a Democrat,
as you all know, and these two gentlemen to my left and right happen
to be members of the Republican Party. But there is no partisan line
in this committee. And this ought to be an illustration or demonstra-
tion of the fact that on this committee we have an American job to do
and not a partisan job to do, either as Democrats of Republicans.
The committee stands adjourned, and we go to Seattle tomorrow
morning.
Mr. Speiser. Are the witnesses excused ?
Mr. Doyle. The witnesses are all excused.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 10 p. m., the subcommittee was recessed, to be re-
convened at 10 a.m., Thursday, December 13, 1956, in the City-County
Building, Seattle, Wash. Committee members present: Representa-
tives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 1956
United States Housp: of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee on
Un-American Activities,
Seattle^ Wash.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess at 10 a. m., in the Council Room, County-City
Building, Seattle, Washington, Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
fornia and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staif members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
Wheeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and Richard S. Weil,
staff member.
Mr. Doyle. The committee v^ill please come to order.
Let the record show that by reason of the provisions of Public Law
601, 79th Congress, the chairman of the committee, Francis E. Walter,
of Pennsylvania appointed for the purpose of this hearing, a sub-
committee of three, consisting of Mr. Velde of Illinois, who is not
present this morning — he necessarily left the committee after the San
Francisco hearings — Mr. Gordon Scherer of Ohio, who sits to my
right, and myself. Representative Clyde Doyle of Los Angeles County,
as subcommittee chairman.
Let the record show that Mr. Scherer and Chairman Doyle are both
present, therefore, a legal quorum of the subcommittee is present.
May I say that, under our rules and under the rules of the House of
Representatives, now it is required, and properly so we believe, that
at least two members of Congress sit in every investigating committee
where a witness is testifying under oath.
Let the record show that pursuant to authorization, therefore, of
Chairman Walter, authorized by Public Law 601, the public hearings
are being held at this time.
Our hearings in this great city will go further into the current
campaign of political subversion which the Communist Party, and
possibly Communist-controlled fronts, and its confederate organiza-
tions, are conducting throughout our great Nation. This committee
has already held hearings in Chicago, Washington. D. C. ; Youngs-
town, Ohio: and during the last week in Los Angeles and San
Francisco.
Sworn testimony which we have received in these hearings shows
as clear as crystal that the Communist Party campaign of jwlitical
0935
6936 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
subversion now in vogue, ranks today as one of the greatest threats
of the Communist Party and its confederate subversives to our con-
stitutional form of Government. The American Communist Party,
though a corps of militant revolutionaries, is attempting to rob the
United States of America of its legal defenses as they now exist in
Federal statutes against ultimate conquest by an alien conspiracy
and a foreign power which directs the Communist Party and its con-
federates in the United States of America.
More appalling, however, is the fact the Communists and their
confederates, either knowingly or unknowingly, by propaganda and
infiltration subversively and always in contempt of our United States
Constitution, are seeking at all times to enlist the services of well-
meaning American citizens in this illicit, diabolical undertaking.
The activities of the Communist Party in the United States and a
multitude of subversive Communist front organizations, some members
of which are unsuspecting of the real subversive control of those organ-
izations, but which the Communist Party has created for their sub-
versive purposes, are directed against such existing Federal statutes
as the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, the Communist Control
Act, and with a special vehemence against the provisions of our exist-
ing Immigration and Nationality Act, which provides, among other
things, for the deportation of alien Communists who have obtained
residence in the United States by misrepresentation and who maintain
allegiance still to the Kremlin instead of to the United States of
America.
I want to make it clear that we are not engaged in these hearings
in considering the merits or the lack of merits of any particular
Federal statute. Furthermore, we are not and never have, and never
will, contest the right of any American citizen to either individually
or to organize in behalf of, support of, or opposition to, any particular
law.
Such political activity is a constitutional inherent, fundamental
right under the United States Constitution. This committee and all
American Congressmen are sworn to uphold that right and always
will uphold that right.
As a rule in these hearings, we are not confronted with sincere
citizens who seek to participate in good faith and patriotically in the
process of our Constitutional form of Government. We are con-
fronted, rather, with a group of people, unfortunately, who hold these
very democratic constitutional processes in deliberate contempt, and
who contrive to use them to advance the operation of an illegal sub-
versive Communist conspiracy which is clearly dedicated to the de-
struction, even to the extent of force and violence in some cases, of
all democratic processes as is proven time and time again in the jury
trials and other court trials throughout our Nation.
The Congress is entitled to know at all times — and I am sure any
thinking patriotic American citizen will agree with us — that the
United States Congress is at all times entitled to know the identity
and the true interests of all persons who petition Congress for a change
of any sort in existing Federal legislation. Only if Congress knows
who it is dealing with, and what the real interests of a petitioner be-
fore Congress are, can we in Congress discharge with dispatch with
justice, with soundness, and with fairness, our duties as legislators
for nil the American people.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6937
A number of witnesses before this committee during this series of
hearings have charged that we have no legislative purpose. I don't
want to dignify that by making any extended answer because the
charge is false and known to be false. Public Law 601 expressly
states that as one of the purposes for the existence of this committee.
"Without such hearings there would be no Smith Act, nor any Com-
munist Control Act. There would be no weapon by which the United
States Government could adequately defend itself as it now can.
I would also like to point out that the Committee on Un-American
Activities was first created as a regular standing committee by the 79th
Congress in 1946. It has been reestablished ever since then. In other
words, by the 79th Congress, by the 80th Congress, 81st Congress, 82d
Congress, 83d Congress, 84th Congress and by the 85th Congress. The
full committee consists of nine members. Public Law 601 expressly
authorizes the creation of subcommittees like this one here this morn-
ing. The committee has established its rules of procedure, as is well
known. We expect that, as a result of these hearings, this subcommit-
tee of the Connnittee on Un-American Activities and the full com-
mittee will be better able and equipped to consider legislative recom-
mendations to the next Congress in January, which will be of further
aid to our Government in combating the Communist apparatus in this
area, and that the information obtained here will serve to further alert
the well-meaning, patriotic people of the Seattle-Portland area, and
the United States as a whole, of the forces which subversively seek the
destruction of our constitutional form of government.
Before we proceed I would like to cordially state that it has come
to our attention, and we are pleased to have it so, that some of the
witnesses appearing here this morning will be represented by very
eminent, very respected, and able members of the Seattle Bar Asso-
ciation.
And I make clear the fact that these members of the Seattle Bar As-
sociation who have been assigned to do this representation as attorneys
today and tomorrow are doing so in accordance with their oath which
requires them to appear, if one has to, for any person who is clearly
indigent or who is believed to be indigent and, therefore, not able to
employ counsel on such an occasion.
Their appearance before this committee — I refer to the attorneys
of the local bar association who are acting without compensation — is
in no way to be construed as a reflection on either their motives or
their integrity.
On behalf of the committee I wish to compliment the members of
the Seattle Bar Association on performing this part of their oath
as lawyers.
(See statement of Jolm N. Kupp, president, Seattle Bar Associa-
tion, pp. 7015, 7016 of testimony.)
Mr. ScHERER. May I interject a word or two ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. There should be no reflection attached to any other
lawyer who appears on behalf of a client and who is paid by that wit-
ness to represent him in this hearing. I think 3'Ou snould state that.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you for adding that.
Mr. Scherer. Unless it is otherwise shown to the contrary.
Mr. Doyle. I think that it might interest the members of the bar to
know that Mr. Scherer and I both are lawyers of many years of prac-
6938 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
tice before we went to Congress 7 and 10 years a^o in respective cases.
Of course there is no smoking in the room during the sessions of
the committee.
If you will pardon just a personal word at this point by me, I wish
to state it is always a pleasure to return to Seattle. I have a great fond-
ness for Seattle and tliis area because, when I was a boy in the gram-
mar grades, I had the pleasure of attending and graduating from
T"'^niyersity Heights Grammar School in Seattle, Wash. Ever since
I have had a great fondness for Seattle and the great Northwest.
As a matter of local history, I might state that I recall very definitely
I was a babysitter in those days in the home of the distinguished
president of the TTniversity of Washington, President Landes, and
that means in the home of one of your distinguished mayors of Seattle,
now deceased. Bertha K. Landes. Then, of course, some of you know
that the home in which I lived when I was here was the home of a
very distinguished minister of the gospel, Rev. Thomas C. Wiswell,
pastor of University Heights Congregational Church.
So if you will pardon that personal reference, Mr. Scherer, this is
one reason why I am a little glad to get you back here, so you can see
the beauties and advantages of this great Northwest. And I am
glad to bring you the greetings of my native State of California,
and of my gi-eat county of Los Angeles.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Arens ?
Before we do that, and so we will save time, I want to call to the
attention of the bar, especially, and the witnesses, a couple of rules of
the committee that have been in effect for many years. I read rule
VII:
At every hearing, public or executive, every witness shall be accorded the
privilege of having counsel of his own choosing.
The participation of counsel during the course of any hearing and while the
witness is testifying shall be limited to advising said witness as to his legal
rights. Counsel shall not be permitted to engage in oral argument with the
committee, but shall confine his activity to the area of legal advice to his client.
Rule VIII:
Counsel for a witness shall conduct himself in a professional, ethical, and
proper manner. His failure to do so shall, upon a finding to that effect by a
majority of the committee or subcommittee before which the witness is appear-
ing, subject such counsel to disciplinary action which may include warning, cen-
sure, removing from the hearing room of counsel, or a recommendation of con-
tempt proceedings.
In case of such removal of counsel, the witness shall have a reasonable time
to obtain other counsel, said time to be determined by the committee. Should
the witness deliberately or capriciously fail or refuse to obtain the services of
other counsel within such reasonable time, the hearing shall continue and the
testimony of such witness shall be heard without benefit of counsel.
Therefore, may I suggest that if any counsel has anything to say
at any time to the committee, say it during the recess period of the
committee or before the committee begins work. Because we do not
have time to grant time to counsel to speak directly to the conunittee.
One further point : Under Public Law 601, 1 read :
The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, is
authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, character,
and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (ii) the
diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda
that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin, and attacks
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6939
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
*******
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States —
I wish you to note this, please —
whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed or has adjourned, to hold such
hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses and the production of
such books, papers, and documents, and to take such testimony as it deems
necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the chairman of
the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated by any such
chairman, and may be served by any person designated by any such chainiian or
member.
Mr. SciiEKER. That L^st, you are reading: from is not from the rules
of the committee, but from the public law of the Congress creating
the committee.
INIr. Doyle. Public Law 601, which has been standing as a matter
of public law just as it is ever since 1946.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arexs. Yes, sir.
Burt Nelson, kindly come forward. Would you please remain stand-
ing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Nelson, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Nelson. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take the chair there.
TESTIMONY OF BURT NELSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN M. RUPP
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Nelson. My name is Buit Nelson. I live at 1218 Westlake,
North, Box 25.
]Mr. Arens. And your occupation, please, sir ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Nelson. On the followino- grounds: That it has no legislative
pur])ose, and in claiming the privilege and the right of the first amend-
ment to the Constitution, I assert, as does the first amendment to the
Constitution, that Congress shall pass no law respecting and estab-
lislunent of religion, or the practice tliereof, nor any abridgment of
the right of freedom of speech, of ]3ress, the right of the citizens
to peacefully assemble and to petition for redress of grievances. And
further, on the grounds of the ninth amendment, and of the fifth
amendment, which provides, among other things, that no one shall
be required to testify against themselves in any manner, way, shape,
or form. And on the grounds that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of ascertaining whether
or not this witness is invoking the fifth amendment in good faith, I
now ask you, Mr. Witness, do you honestly apprehend that if you
told this committee truthfully what your occupation is, you would
6940 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
be supplying information which might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. AuENS. Thank you sir.
And you are today appearing in response to a subpena w^hich was
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?
( The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mv. Nelson. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Rupp. I am sorry, Mr. Arens, I should have done that before.
Mr. Arens. No, this is proper procedure. At this point, if you
please, sir.
Mr. Rupp. M;^ name is John M. Rupp, R-u-p-p. I am appearing
in a representative capacity for Mr. Nelson, also as president of the
Seattle Bar Association, the organization to which the chairman
alluded in his opening statement.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Nelson, how long have you occupied your present
position ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question for the following
reasons : That it has no legislative purpose, and in claiming the right
and privilege of the first amendment, I assert that the Congress of
the United States shall make no abridgment of the right of the people
to peacefully assemble and petition for redress of grievances. On
the grounds of the ninth amendment, which provides the enumeration
in the (constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny
or disparage others retained by the people. And on the grounds of
the 10th amendment which, among other things, provides the powers
not delegated to the United States, or prohibited to the States, are
reserved to the people.
Mr. Scherer. JNIr. Chairman, may I suggest
JNlr. Nelson. And further
JMr. Scherer. I am sorry. Go ahead.
jNIr. Nelson. On the grounds of the fifth amendment, which, among
other things, provides that no one shall be denied life, liberty, and
tile pursuit of happiness without due process, which includes a trial
hj jury, the right to examine witnesses, to cross-examine, to test the
validity of the allegations and the integrity of he who makes the
allegations.
]\Ir. Doyle. Mr. Nelson
Mr, Nelson. And on the grounds that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Doyle. Now that you have made it clear what you intend to
plead, with your plea of the first and fifth and ninth and your con-
stitutional jirivileges, may I request or suggest that, in your answers
where you do intend to plead your constitutional privileges, you just
state that you plead all your constitutional privileges, just as you
have before, and we will accept that as sufficient plea of your con-
stitutional privileges.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. I think, Mr. Chairman, if he indicates clearly that
he is invoking the fifth amendment, I think he should say "for the
reasons I have previously stated, including the fifth amendment."
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6941
Mr. Doyle. Of course.
^Tr. xVrens. Mr. Nelson, as the chairman made clear in his opening
statement, the Committee on Un-American Activities is in the process
of developing factual information respecting Communist political
subversion, the efforts of the Communist conspiracy to destroy the
security laws of this country. With that end in view, there is now
being displayed to you a document entitled "'Coalition for Freedom
and Democracy, a Report of the Washington State Committee of the
Communist Party, November 1955." Kindly look at that document
and tell us first of all whether or not you have ever seen it before.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 614," see appendix, pp. 8186-
8203.)
(The witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, while the witness is perusing the docu-
ment, may I respectfully suggest that each of the several exhibits
shown to the witness will by general order be appropriately marked
and will be either incorporated in the appendix or by reference, as
the case may be.
Mr. Doyle. I will now make that order.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question for the following
reasons
Mr. Doyle. May I ask your cooperation at this point. To follow my
suggestion for the purpose of saving your time and everyone else's,
that you not undertake to take time to again repeat the way you have
twice
Mr. Nelson. I decline for the reasons that I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. This document, which sets forth the program of the
Communist Party on legislation, includes a drive to destroy the Inter-
nal Security Act, the Immigration and Nationality Act, the Smith
Act, and hearings by congressional committees, alluded to here as
Yelde hearings, Velde being a former chairman of this committee.
^^Hiile you are under oath, Mr. Nelson, please tell this committee,
if it is not a fact that you were one of the instigators and f ormulators
of this program of the Communist Party of the State of Washington.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question specifically on the fol-
lowing grounds: That Congress shall make no law
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Nelson, may I admonish you, we will appreciate
getting your cooperation. I have stated that this committee will con-
sider it sufficient if you will plead your constitutional privileges. You
have made your valued statements, I am sure, in the last three an-
swers elaborating on it.
Mr. Nelson. Specifically, I woidd like to state in response to this
question the following reasons: That Congress sliall make no law
abridging the right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition
for a right of redress in any manner, particular, or respect, and for
the additional reasons that I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. You understand, Mr. Nelson, I wasn't asking you or
suggesting that any gi'oup did not have a right to petition Congress.
I was only asking you in the question whether or not to your certain
knowledge the Communist conspiratorial apparatus had these partic-
ular objectives set forth in that document which was displayed to you.
Now we want to display to you a document from the Communist
Daily People's World, an article appearing in the issue of Friday,
6942 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
February 17, 1956. This article says: "Nelson to head Communist
Party in State." The body of the article contains the following
language :
Election of Burt Xelson, veteran Seattle maritime union leader, as chairman
of the Washington State Communist Party, was announced this week by the
party's State committee.
and so forth.
Kindly look at that article and tell this committee while you are
under oath, whether or not that article makes a correct recitation of
the facts.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 615," see appendix, p. 8204.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Now are you connected with the Washington State Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question — —
Mr. Arens. Wliat is the relationship between the Washington State
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the Communist con-
spiracy in this State?
Mr. Nelson. You interrupted me.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon. I apologize.
Mr. Nelson. On the grounds that I had previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Now tell us what is the connection between the
Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, to your
certain loiowledge, and the Communist conspiratorial apparatus in
this State.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question for the following rea-
sons : It has no legislative purpose, it is a leading, exploratory question
and I assert the provisions of the first amendment, that Congress shall
pass no law respecting peaceful assembly of people to petition for
right of grievance, and under those
]Mr. Doyle. Excuse me. Mr. Nelson, I have the full text of the
United States Constitution right here. So if you will just identify
the section of the Constitution that you rely on, we have the full text
right here, and even if we didn't have, we should know the Consti-
tution.
Mr. Nelson. And on the further grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Nelson, we lay before you a photostatic copy
of the Daily Peoples World of April 27, 1950, in which an article
appears, part of which reads as follows :
May Day Dinner Slated
A panel discussion by "Washington State Communist Party leaders and a
question period will feature a May Day festival and dinner, at the Casa Italiana,
1520 17th Street.
Sul)ject of the panel talks will be the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of
the Soviet Union, and the 1956 elections. Those participating will be Burt
Nelson, State chairman —
and so forth.
Kindly look at that article of the Communist Daily People's World
and tell this committee while you are under oath whether or not the
facts there are, to your certain knowledge, accurately set forth.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 616," see appendix, p. 8204.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6943
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds that I
have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that in the
presence of this witness, anotlier witness be called, Mrs. Barbara
Hartle. Will you kindly come forward.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, will you please come forward.
Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers an oath to
you.
Mr. Doyle. JNIrs. Hartle. do you solenmly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Hartle. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take a seat.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BAHBAEA HARTLE
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Hartle. Barbara Hartle, Koute 1, Bos 2, Evans, Wash. I
have no employment. I worli on the farm and in the house of my
father.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, I expect a little later on to interrogate you
at length on a number of matters, but for the present I should like to
ask you now, Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
And during what period of time were you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Hartle. From the winter of 1933-34, until March 12, 1954, at
which time I renounced the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your mem.bership in the Com-
munist Party, did you have occasion to know a person by the name of
Burt Nelson ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you swear while now under oath, to your certain
knowledge, that Burt Nelson was a Communist during the experience
of yourself in the Communist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you see the Burt Nelson in the hearing room today,
now, whom you have identified as a Communist?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes. Pie is here at the witness table.
Mr. Arens. Would you point him out to the committee ?
Mrs. Hartle. He is sitting right to my right.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF BURT NELSON— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mr. Nelson, you have just heard the testimony of Mrs.
Barbara Hartle. Have you not ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the following
grounds
6944 coMMijisriST political subversion
Mr. Arens. You may return to your seat, Mrs. Hartle.
Mr. Nelson. To dignify this person by an admission of knowledge
of her would be incriminating and degrading.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. Whether you wanted to dignify her
or not, and whether it be degrading to you or not, the question is,
Was she telling the truth or was she lying when she said that you were
a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with, his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. That is the question.
Mr. Nelson. Was that a question ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, it was.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer, on the grounds that I have pre-
viously stated, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully Avhether or not Mrs. Hartle was lying when she swore a few
moments ago that you were a Communist, you would be supplying in-
formation which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens, Do you know a man
Mr, Scherer, Just a minute, Mr, Chairman, I ask that you direct
the witness to answer the question,
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Witness, I order and direct that you answer that
last question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Jess Fletcher?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment and of the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Jess Fletcher took an oath and testified while he was
under oath that while he was a member of the Communist Party he
knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. Nelson, I decline to answer this question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Arens. H. C. Armstrong took an oath, laid his liberty on the
line, and said he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was
he telling the truth ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Arens, Elizabeth Boggs Cohen took an oath and identified
5^ou as a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was she lying or
was she telling the truth ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Leonard Wildman took an oath and identified you as
a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he lying or was he
telling the truth?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question for the reasons I have
previously given.
Mr. Arens. A1 Bristol, former Communist Party functionary in
Seattle, took an oath and identified you as a member of the Communist
conspiracy. Was Al Bristol lying or was he telling the truth ?
il
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6945
Mr, Nelson. I decline to answer this question
Mr. Arens. Are you now a
Mr. Nelson. For the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Comnuuiist conspiracy ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question, and I assert, as does
the first amendment, that Congress shall pass no abridgment of the
right of the people to peacefully assemble, petition for the right of —
redress of grievances. And on the grounds of the fifth amendment
which provides in part the right to a fair trial, to confront your accus-
ers and cross-examine them, to test the truths or untruth of their allega-
tions and of their motives, and on the grounds that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to affirm or
deny the fact that you are now an integral part of the Communist
conspiracy in the State of Washington.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds I have
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer, any questions?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, sir.
Witness, have you continued to be a member of the Communist con-
spiracy since the Communists conunitted the atrocities in Hungary in
the last few months?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the
1st amendment, of the 9th amendment, the 10th amendment, the 5th
amendment, and on the additional grounds that it has no legislative
purpose.
Mr. Scherer. Do you approve the actions of the Communists in
Hungary ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the following
grounds: The first amendment, the ninth amendment, the tenth
amendment, the fifth amendment, which all or in part prohibit the
Congress from legislating on approval or disapproval of the internal
affairs of a sovereign nation beyond the bounds of the United States.
Mr. Scherer. That answer is quite revealing. It indicates that you
have answered "yes" to my question.
Mr. Doyle. At this point, Mr. Scherer, I wish to call attention for
the record and for our colleagues in Washington next Congress, to
the fact that the Seattle Post Intelligencer of this morning carries
the headline, "U. N. Assembly vote condemns Russia for actions in
Hungary by a vote of 55 to 8." I think that is magnificent.
I don't think we have ever had a witness before us in any of these
hearings who lias been identified as a Communist or a member of the
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born who publicly in our pres-
ence condemned the action of Russia in slaughtering and murdering
innocent men, women, and children in Hungary.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Arens. May the witness be excused, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mrs, Barbara Hartle, would you kindly take the prin-
cipal witness chair.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, while Mrs. llartle is coming to take the stand,
I have before me — I just want to read one paragraph, I wish I had
6946 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
time to read it all — in the case of Quinn v. United States of Amer-
ica^ decided by the Supreme Comt of the United States, October
term, 1954, in view of Mr. Nelson's statements that we had no power
to investigate because there was no legislative purpose, as claimed by
him. I read from page 5 of his decision and 1 quote this decision of
the United States Supreme Court :
There can be no doubt as to tlie power «>f Congress, by itself or through its
committees, to investigate matters and conditions relating to contemplated legis-
lation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is indeed
coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investigate—
including of course the authority to compel testimony, either through its own
process or through judicial trial — Congress could be seriously handicapped in its
efforts to exercise its constitutional function wisely and effectively.
And of course it has been stated by me before, the chief reason that
this conmiittee is here is for the purpose of investigating, for the pur-
pose of benefiting the United State? Congress in the field of legislation.
TESTIMONY OF BAEBAEA HAETLS— Eesumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, you have previously been sworn on this
record this morning, and you have told us that you were a member of
the Communist Party. Would you give us just a brief summary of
your break with the Communist Party, what precipitated the break,
and then we will go on from tiiere.
Mrs. Hartle. After I had been sent underground by the Communist
Party in the summer of 1950, I began to be in less close cont:;ct with
the party organization and activities, and became in closer contact
with the ordinary lives of ordinary Americn citizens. During that
time I decided to quit being an active functionary of the party. I
had attempted to break contact with the Communist Party in the
underground on the wrong assumption that if I broke contact that
they would then leave me alone.
I was then pursued by the Communist Party in the persons of its
leaders, attempting to discipline me, attempting to bring me back
into activity and responsibility. And after my arrest on a Smith Act
charge and release on bond here in Seattle, I was further pursued by
persons I had known as members of the Comnmnist Party to resume
my political activity as a Communist, to accept my responsibilities and
discipline. I was expelled at one point and reinstated at another
point.
Later as I was released on appeal bond in the city of Seattle, and
tried to earn a living while waiting for the time that the case came
to a close and 1 would either be freed or serve a sentence, I was again
pursued by various factions of the Communist Party in an attempt
to pressure me back into activity. And through these experiences
and others, I finally came to the realization that the Communist Party
was a gigantic fraud and a hoax, that it had raised havoc with my
life, that it was a danger to the country and at that time I voluntarily
went to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and made a public state-
ment in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer renouncing the Communist
Party.
]Mr. Arexs. Thank you.
Now, during the course of your experience in the Communist Party,
did you have occasion to become thoroughly acquainted with the ac-
tivities of the Connnunist Party designed to destroy, undermine, and
COAOIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6947
weaken the anti-Communist program of this Government, including
the legishitive program ?
]\Irs. Hartle. Yes, I did,
Mr. Akexs. Did you have occasion to become acquainted with the
membership and activities of the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Harile. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Was it controlled by the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arexs, I would like to display to you, if I may, please, Mrs.
Hartle, two documents from the Northwest Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born. The first is an application for membership bear-
ing the names of a number of the officers of this organization. And the
second is a call to a NortliAvest Conference to Fight Deportation under
the auspices of the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, listing certain of the officers and leaders of that organization.
Would you kindly look at those documents, and tell this committee
while you are under oath, the names of any persons, to 3'our certain
knowledge, who were Communists and officers or leaders of the North-
west Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibits No. 617 and 618," see appendix,
pp. 8205-8209.)
INIrs. Hartle. P[ugh DeLacy.
jMr. Arens. And by the way, if it is agreeable with you, give us
just a comment about the individual, what you might know about him.
We don't want an extensive biographical sketch out just a word about
him.
Mrs. Hartle. Hugh DeLacy was one time president of the Wash-
ington Commonwealth Federation of the State of Washington, was
one time a Congressman from the First District of the State of Wash-
ington.
Air. Arens. And Mr. Chairman, I think it would not be inappro-
priate if I would interpose this comment on this record, namely, that
in our hearings in Ohio, in anticipation of the hearings in Ohio, we
made vigorous search to find Hugh DeLacy in order to subpena him.
Our best information is he has been dodging the subpena.
]\Ir. Scherer. Wasn't Hugh DeLacy called before our committee
and took the fifth amendment ?
JMr. Arens. On a preceding occasion, yes, sir.
]\f r. Scherer. Yes, some years ago.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Now, do you have another name there ?
Mrs. Hartle. Joseph Jurich, J-u-r-i-c-h, whom I knew as an offi-
cial of one of the waterfront unions in Seattle.
Karloy Larsen, wliom I knew as an official of a lumber workers union
in the Northwest area and as a leader of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. By the way, I wanted the record to be clear, because of
the tenor of your conversation there. Name only persons who to your
certain knowledge were members of the Communist Party in each in-
stance, and we will not liave to ask you each time do you know him as
a Communist.
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I will do that.
INIarion Kinney, wlio was manager of the Frontier Book Store in the
city of Seattle, from about 1943 to 1954, to my knowledge.
6948 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. How is she listed on the documents before you? In
what capacity is she connected with the
Mrs. Hari-le. She is listed as Executive Secretary of the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. ScHEKER. The name is familiar. Where did I hear that name,
Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. She is one of the petitioners in a certain legal proceed-
ing which was recently instituted in this city.
Mrs. Hartle. Mabel Conrad, whom I knew as one of the State
officers of the Washington Pension Union, as well as a member of
the Coimnunist Party.
Myrna Anderson, whom I knew as a member of the Waterfront Sec-
tion of the Communist Party, and as a woman working in one of the
offices of a waterfront union.
Walter Belka, B-e-1-k-a, whom I knew as an official of one of the
lumber unions in the Northwest area.
Professor Joseph Butterworth, whom I knew as a teacher at Univer-
sity of Washington, and later as a person who had been charged with
contempt by the State Un-American Activities Committee and I
believe convicted.
Kobert Cummings, whom I knew as an officer of one of the Seattle
waterfront unions.
John Daschbach
Mr. Arens. D-a-s-c-h-b-a-c-h. Is that correct?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes. Whom I knew as the director of the Seattle
Labor School, and Pacific Northwest Labor School, and as executive
secretary of the Washington State Civil Eights Congress.
O. L. Dearinger, D-e-a-r-i-n-g-e-r, whom I knew as a member of a
longshore union in Seattle.
A. A. Fisher, whom I knew as an official of a CIO council in Seattle
at one time, and as a member and officer in a lumber union in the
Pacific Northwest area.
Eachmiel Forschmiedt
Mr. Arens. Is that Fo-r-s-c-h-m-i-e-d-t? And the first name
R-a-c-h-m-i-e-1?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I believe that is correct, and whom I knew as an
employee of the sanitation department of the city of Seattle. And
later as one of the persons cited for contempt by the State Un-Ameri-
can Activities Committee, the Canwell committee.
Ray Glover, whom I knew as an officer of one of the lumber unions
in the Enumclaw area.
Oiva Halonen
Mr. Arens. Spell that name, please.
Mrs. Hartle. 0-i-v-a H-a-1-o-n-e-n. Whom I knew as a member
of tlie party active in national-group work for the party among Finn-
ish workers, and that type of activity.
Florence and Burton James, whom I knew as directors of the Seattle
Repertory Play House. Perhaps I should say that it has come to my
knowledge that Burton James is deceased.
Harold Johnston, wliom I knew as an officer of a machinists' union
in the Seattle area.
Mr. Sciierer. May I interrupt just a minute, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. DoTLE. Yes, Mr, Scherer.
COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6949
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Counsel, will you tell me the date of this list of
officers and sponsors of the Committee for the Protection of For-
eign Born ?
Mr. Akens. The Northwest Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, as the evidence will show in a little while, subsequently be-
came the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This list and this document is a 1949 list.
Mr. ScHERER. This is 1949 ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. This sounds like a roster of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Go ahead.
Mrs. Hartle. Charles Nichols, whom I knew as an officer of a water-
front union in Seattle.
Jerry O'Connell, whom I knew as an officer of the Progressive Party
of the State of Washington.
William J. Pennock, deceased, whom I knew as president of the
Washington Pension Union, and who was a codefendant with myself
in the Seattle Smith Act trials.
Prof. Herbert J. Phillips, whom I knew as a teacher at the Univer-
sity of Washington.
Thomas C. Rabbitt, whom I knew as an officer of the Washington
Pension Union of the Washington State Progressive Party, among
other things that he did.
Harry Sunoo, whom I knew as a member of the Communist Party
in the University District area. S-u-n-o-o.
Jerry Tyler, whom I knew as an officer of one of the Seattle water-
front unions.
Winnie Tliomson, wliom I knew as a worker in one of the offices of
a Seattle waterfront union.
William Wallace, whom I knew as an officer of one of the lumber
unions of the Northwest area.
And that completes the list of the Northwest Committee.
Mr. Arexs. If you will just hesitate a moment, Mrs. Hartle. Be-
fore we have a little recess, the Northwest Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, subsequently in 1954 changed its name and be-
came the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
isn't that correct ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Scherer. Have we determined what percentage of the officers
and membership were Communists as identified by the Avitness?
Mr. Arens. What percentage of those names that you have identi-
fied there as Communists, are they to the aggregate number?
Mr. Scherer. Of couree I understand there may be others on that
list wlio might have been Communists, whom Mrs. Hartle did not
know as such. But I am interested in knowing what percentage of
that organization were Communists.
IVIrs. Hartle. For tlie information of the committee, I should say
that there are names on this list of persons that I have been told
were Communists.
Mr. Sciiereh. You haven't mentioned them?
Mrs. Hartle. The ones I mentioned were ones that I knew to be
Communists fiom meetings, from discussions with them, et cetera.
85333— 57— pt. 1 -52
6950 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. SciiERER. That is all we M^anted. That is what I just said.
It is possible that there are others in that list who were members of
the Communist Party, whom you did not know personally of your
own knowledge to be members. I wanted to know what percentage
of the total list are Communists.
Mrs. Hartle. Do you want that quite accurately? Or an esti-
mate?
Mr, Arens. a fair estimate.
Mrs. Hartle. It appears to mo that it is about 75 percent.
Mr. x\rens. Was the organization controlled, to your certain knowl-
edge, lock, stock, and barrel by the Communist conspiracy?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes ; it was.
]Mr. Arens. Now, may we have a little recess, Mr. Chairman
Mr. DoTLE. May I make this comment, Mr. Scherer, in tlie field
of legislative action, or the petitioning of Congress, and the right to
petition Congress, which we certainly respect and want to occur: In
1949 the evidence will show — that is down to the present date — but in
1949, when you and I were there, if the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born petitioned Congress from Seattle and
the Northwest, it would really have been the Communist Party, and a
Communist front. I think the evidence clearly shows that.
Mr. SciiERER. In 1949 most of the Congressmen would not have
known that — that the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was
a Communist-front organization.
Mr. DoTLE. How would we know? We certainly have to get
into the area of legislation to consider legal ways and means to make
sure that it isn't the Communist conspiracy that is petitioning us
under dummy names such as the American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born manifestly was in 1949, at least.
Mr. SciiERER. It isn't only the American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born that is controlled and dominated by the Communists,
but I believe to date in these hearings it has been established, has it
not, Counsel, that there are 180 organizations with high-sounding
names that have been set up by the Communist Party and controlled
and dominated by the Communist Party for the purpose of repealing
the internal security laws of this Nation ?
Mr. Arens. 180, Mr. Scherer. exclusively designed to destroy the
Immigration and Nationality Act, the so-called McCarran-Walter
Act. In addition to that, there are countless organizations that have
been set up for the purpose of destroying other comparable legislative
enactments.
Mr. Doyle. Just before we do take a 5-minute recess, may I say
this: I note the presence of distinguished members of the marshals,
police, and police staffs. We appreciate your coming.
We do not allow either any evidence of approval or disapproval
from those in the room. That is cricket, certainly.
So if the enforcement officers will do as they had to do in Los
Angeles j'.nd San Francisco, without further word from me, when there
is any deliberate AMolation of courtesy to the committee, the city, and
countv, just apply whatever force is necessary to eject the person
and don't let them come back, please.
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent : Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6951
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Represetatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please reconvene.
The committee will hold session this morning until 12 : 30. We will
hold a night session tonight at 7 : 30.
I wish to give order noA\' that anyone under subpena who is not
called before we adjourn this afternoon, please report here tonight at
7 : 30. We are sorry to cause you that inconvenien>*e but it is also an
inconvenience to us to have to hold night sessions.
May I say that I was approached during recess by a person who said
to me, "Congi-essman, v,hy attack the Communist Party so much?
Isn't there anj' other group that also should be equally exposed ?" And
I just wish to read apropos of that remark one paragraph from the
decision in the case of United States of America, plaintiff, versus Sam
Title, being an opinion by the distinguished Federal Judge Leon R.
Yankwich, Chief United States Judge, Southern District of Cali-
fornia, June 8, 1955. In other words, a little over a year ago. And
more is what he said, in brief :
We have already referred to the fact that the Communist Party of the United
States and the local branch to which the defendant belonged —
I may interpolate here that that was the Los Angeles Branch of the
Communist Party
adopted the gloss which Lenin, Stalin, and the Communist International placed
on Marxist teachings. The literature in the record shows that American Com-
munist conventions and American writers pointed not only to these teachings
as correct, but to the prat tice embodied in the Russian Revolution and the Com-
munist dictatorship enthroned by it as the "v.'ay out."' The following brief
quotations will suffice.
This is a quotation which Judge Yankwich, one of the most dis-
tinguished Federal Judges on the west coast, adopted as part of his
decision.
"The experience of the victorious workers of the Soviet Union before, during
and after the seizure of power, throw a brilliant light showing the path which
must be followed in every land, the path of Bolshevism, of Marx, Engels, Lenin,
and Stalin."
I think that will answer for the present why we are presently en-
gaged in this hearing, with reference to contemplated legislative action
which will strengthen our internal security laws.
Are you ready, Mr. Arens ?
Mr, Arens, Yes.
]\Ir, Chairman, in the presence of this witness I should like to have
another witness sworn for the ])ur])ose of identification,
Mr, William Wheeler, would you kindly be sworn,
Mr. Doyle, Mr. Wheeler, I wish the record to show, is the distin-
guished chief of staff of our committee on the Pacific coast.
Mr, Wheeler, do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Wheeler. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM A. WHEELER
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler, you are an investigator for the Committee
on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir.
(3952 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a document which is a summons
and complaint in a civil action instituted in the District Court of the
United States for the Western District of Washington, Northern Di-
vision, and ask you if vou have ever seen that document before.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 619," retained in committee files.)
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Where was that?
Mr. Wheeler. That was served upon me by the United States mar-
shal yesterday evening.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Wheeler, you will be excused from testifymg. I respectfully
suggest that you lay that document before the witness in the principal
witness chair.
( Document handed to Mrs. Hartle. )
TESTIMONY OF BAEBARA HARTLE— Eesumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly look on page 2 of this
document on which the following appears under 11.
Mr. ScHERER. Did we state for the record what that document is ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
It is a complaint for declaratory judgment and injunctive relief,
brought by John W. Caughlan, Marion Kinney, Louise Hatten, Cecelia
Corr, and Clara Paulson individually and as the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, against Clyde Doyle, Har-
old H. Velde, and Gordon Scherer individually and as persons pur-
porting to constitute a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Acivities of the House of Representatives and Jolm Doe I, John
Doe II, and J olm Doe III, defendants.
Now, Mrs. Hartle, on page 20 of this document which has been iden-
tified in this record, we see a number of persons listed as officers of the
Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born by their alle-
gation here.
I should like to ask you, do you know Marion Kinney who is identi-
fied in this document as executive secretary of the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. D0YI.E. Mr. Arens, may I interrupt here. Is that complaint
verified ? I mean is it sworn to before a notary public ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle, On what day ?
Mr. Arens. The affidavit of Marion Kinney is subscribed and sworn
to on the 11th day of December 1956.
Mr. Scherer. So the record is clear, Marion Kinney swore to the
allegations contained in that complaint, one of the allegations being
naming of the local members of the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born,
Mr. Arens. The local officers ?
Mr. Scherer. The local officers,
Mr, Doyle, By the local officers, you mean the Seattle officers in
the Northwest ?
Mr, Arens, Yes, The Washington Committee.
Mr, DoYiE. That was filed in court when? In the District Court
in Seattle when was it filed ?
Mr. Appell. Yesterday.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6953
Mr. D0Y1.E. "WHien was the summons issued ?
Mr. Arens. December 12.
Mr. DoTLE. This week?
Mr. ScHErvER. Yesterday.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know Marion Kinney who is identified here as
executive secretary of the Washington Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a Communist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Cecelia Corr who was identified in this
sworn document as treasurer of the Washington Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a Coimnunist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. And did you know Clara A. Paulson, P-a-u-1-s-o-n who
is identified as recording secretary of the Washington Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born? And did you know her as a Com-
munist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes. I knew her as a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Hartle, on the basis of your background and
experience in the Communist Party, and the operations of the Com-
munist conspiracy in this area, can you tell us whether or not the
Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born took over
and succeeded the Northwest Committee for Protection of the Foreign
Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, it did.
Mr. Arens. And was, to your certain knowledge, the Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born controlled lock, stock, and
barrel by the Conmiunist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was the relationship, if any, between the Wash-
ington Committee, Northwest Committee and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. Hartle. They were all a part of the same organization.
Mr. Arens. Now, Abner Green has been identified on this record
back in Washington as the executive secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and has been repeatedly identi-
fied under oath by witnesses, as a member of the top echelon of
the Communist conspiracy.
Has Abner Green to your certain knowledge participated in the di-
rection of the affairs of the Northwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, and of the Washington Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. To my certain knowledge he has participated in di-
rection of the affairs of the Northwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. My knowledge does not run to the Washington
Committee.
Mr. Arens. In that respect, you muean with reference to his partici-
pation.
Now, you had two documents there. The first document you men-
tioned was an application for membership in the Northwest Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born and the second document, which
6954 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
was before you which you now have, I see, is a document in the nature
of a call to a conference, issued under the auspices of the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look at the
second document^, if you please, Mrs. Hartle, and tell this committee
while you are under oath if there are any persons there whom you have
not named who to your certain knowledge are officers or were officers of
the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and who
were Communists.
Mrs. Hartle. On the first page of the call to the conference is listed
the name of Lenus Westman, executive secretary. I knew him and
knew him as a member of the Communist Party.
The others I have named.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Now, Mrs. Hartle, what is, in Communist Party jargon, a '"united
front tactic" ?
Mrs. Hartle. A united front tactic is the program of the Commu-
nist Party to draw non-Communists in to work with Communists on
some specific issue with the aim of influencing them in the direction
of Communist policies, with the aim of gaining sympathizers for the
Communist Party, and with the aim of gaining from among them re-
cruits, members to the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party in its efforts to destroy and
undermine the various anti-Communist legislative enactments, pene-
trate non-Communist and anti-Communist organizations in order to
solicit those organizations to take stands which would ultimately inure
to the benefit of the conspiracy ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, it did.
Mr. Arens. Why would the Communist Party be so vigorously op-
posed to the Immigration and Nationality Act, the so-called Walter-
McCarran Act ?
Mrs. Hartle. It was opposed to it because this act made it possible
to deport persons from the country who were Communists, made it
possible to restrict the activities of the Communists who were aliens,
and made it possible to guard some of the work of Communists in such
places as Alaska that might in some way endanger the security of the
country.
Mr. Arens. Now, did the Communist Party, to your knowledge,
while you were a member, impose discipline upon the members of the
party, the comrades, with reference to their action, the position they
were to take, before congressional investigating bodias such as the
House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes ; they most certainly did.
Mr. Arens. What did they do; what discipline did they impose on
the comrades with regard to this committee and other committees of
comparable jurisdiction ?
Mrs. Hartle. The discipline they imposed was that a member of
the Communist Party, in what they call a burgeois or ca])italist court
or before a congressional committee such as this, should clefy the com-
mittee, that they slioidd aMempt as nuich as possible to bring forward
the program of the Communist Party, and that they should refuse to
cooperate with any of the committees or to conduct themselves as
ordinary defendants in a court.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party, did you have occasion to gain knowledge, and did you gain
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6955
knowledge, respecting a creation of a special underground apparatus
of the Communist conspiracy in these parts?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Arens. And could you tell us, first of all, what precipitated
the creation of that underground operation and, secondly, who were
the participants?
Mrs. PIartle. The underground operation was precipitated by the
situation created in the mind of the C'ommunist Party by the Korean
war. The Communist Party said the Korean war would certainly
evolve into world war III and that this could become a very dangerous
thing for the Conmiunist Party. That it was possible that many mem-
bers and leaders of the Communist Party could be arrested and that
it was necessary for the Communist Party districts such as the North-
west district, to have leaders, capable organizers, and agitators of
the party in reserve, in hiding; that is, so that in the event the
operating leadership of the party were arrested, that there would be
in reserve capable forces to direct the party from underground to
continue its activities.
Mr. Arens. And who, to your certain knowledge, were assigned to
the Communist Pa rty underground ?
Mrs. Hartle. Assigned to the Communist Party underground to
my certain and personal knowledge were Milford Sutherland, Kalph
Hall, John Lawrie, L-a-w-r-i-e, Paula Alexander.
Those are some that I can recall.
Mr. Arens. Was Pearl Castle assigned to the underground?
Mrs. Hartle. Not to my personal knowledge. I had only indirect
knowledge of that.
Mr. Arens. Was Clayton VanLydegraf assigned to the under-
ground ?
Mrs. Hartle. I knew that he had been assigned to the underground
from reports in meetings of the underground State committee.
Mr. Arens. Now, did you during the course of your expei'ience in
the Communist Party have any conversations Avith a person by the
name of Sarah Hortense, H-o-r-t-e-n-s-e — Sarnh Hortense Lesser,
L-e-s-s-e-r — respecting her personal activities?
Mrs. Hartle, Yes.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us just in your own words the essence of
that conversation ?
Mrs. Hartle. The essence of my conversation with her regarding
this m.atter was that at some time in the past she had undergone
discipline by the Communist Party, that she had experienced some
discipline due to breaking the discipline of the party on her own part.
The conversation indicated to me that she had been a member of the
Communist Party in undergoing this discipline.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes ; just one or two.
Mr. DoYT.E. Go ahead.
]\Tr. SciiEitKR. Afrs. Hartle, I am again referring to the complaint
filed in the district Federal court yesterday against the members of
this subcommittee. It is my recollection that you identified all but
one o-P the complainants as members of the Cominunist Party, includ-
ing Marion Kinney, who was one of the complainants who made affi-
6956 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
davit as to tlie truth of tlie allegations set forth in the complaint.
Isn't Marion Kinney the executive secretary of the Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, Mr. Arens?
]\Ir. Arens. That is right.
]Mr. ScHERER. Yes; she so states under oath that she is, I see here
in the complaint.
Now, acting as notary public, the man who took the affidavit of
this Marion Kinney, is one John Caughlan. I am advised that he is a
member of the bar, and one of the lawyers who is representing the
petitioners, tlie plaintiffs in this action. Do you know John Caughlan,
the lawyer.
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you know him during the time that you were
in the Communist Party as a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Doyle. Was it in Seattle that you knew him as a Communist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Well, it looks like all of them are members of the
Communist Party except one. There is a John W. Caughlan who is
also a petitioner. I believe he is the one that you have not identified,
the only one that you have not identified in this litigation. He was
not a member of the Communist Party, is that right ?
Mr. Doyle. Maybe it is the same John.
]Mr. Scherer. No, I understand that he is the father of the attorney.
Did you know him or not ?
Mrs. Hartle. I knew him.
Mr. Scherer. You have not identified him, however. He is the
only one you have not identified as a member of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Hartle. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. Then he should get the benefit of it being made very
clear that John W. Caughlan is not identified in this hearing as a
member of the Communist Party so far. Is that correct, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Wheeler. He is a minister, not a lawyer.
Mr. Doyle. He is a minister.
Mr. Scherer. He is put on notice now that his son and all his
associates are members, if he didn't know it before, which I doubt.
Mr. Doyle. Any further questions?
Mr. Scherer. No, I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I just have one. I think at this point, Mr. Scherer,
it would be appropriate for me to refer to the Guide to Subversive
Organizations and Publications, published on May 14, 1951, by this
committee as House Document 137.
It appears crystal clear to us from a great deal of evidence under
oath and documentary wise, that the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, and the Los Angeles committee are all off-
shoots or auxiliaries of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, Let me read the record of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born on page 13 of this House Document 137.
( See p. 6628 of testimony. )
I see by this sworn complaint we have referred to that they frankly
state they collect substantial sums of money. I mean the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. So evidently the ap-
praisement by the California Committee on Un-American Activities
was correct in that feature, too.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6957
I wish to make this observation, Mr. Scherer, with reference to our
report when we go back to Washington. It seems to me that in the
field of legislation Congress should take notice that we ought to con-
sider whether or not it would be constitutional and necessary to enact
legislation concerning the activities of these Communist fronts such as
this one in this complaint on page 2 — four of the five executive officers
of this Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born under
their own oath, filed yesterday in district court in this city, they declare
that they are all of the officers of the Washingion Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. So again we have here the same pattern
as in this Los Angeles and San Franciso. This alleged Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born, the Communists are in control of the
money and the policy.
Mr. Scherer. May I interrupt. I don't know whether we have
them here or not — but in Los Angeles it was shown by numerous checks
introduced in evidence, where the Communist officers of the Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born, were making out checks to other
Communists for services rendered to the Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Doyle.- To complete this statement, for the purpose of the rec-
ord, so all our colleagues in Washington can see as we see in this hearing
that here is another case where the bank account and all the funds are
in control of admittedly, over their own oath in court yesterday in this
complaint, of four of the five executive officers of the Washington
Committee who are identified as Communists.
So it is the Communist Party in Washington and Seattle that is
controlling the policy and the funds of the Northwest or Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born instead of anyone else.
And in Los Angeles the record shows admittedly, that while the
woman on the stand admitted under oath, that she had been convicted
of violation of the Smith Act more than 2 years previous, it w^as proven
that she and another identified Commie were the two people who
signed the checks and controlled the bank account of the Los Angeles
committee.
Mr. Scherer. She was promoted after she was convicted.
Mr. Doyle. She was promoted as chairman after she was convicted
by a jury in Federal Court for violating the Smith Act.
That is the kind of people that the people in the Northwest, the great
Northwest, are contributing money to when they contribute money to
pay the salaries of the officers of apparently the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
That is as we see the evidence now.
Mr. Scherer. Can we say, Mr. Doyle, further, that this type of
evidence of Communist control of committees for the protection of
foreign born is not confined only to the Los Angeles Committee and
San Francisco Committee, but we found that same thing to be true in
our hearings in Washington, Youngstown, and Chicago. At those
hearings we had witnesses subpenaed not only from those cities, but
from other areas.
So the pattern is the same not only in California but all over the
United States.
Mr. Doyle. That is right.
6958 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Well, if the people in the great Northwest wanted to support that
kind of thing, they have notice now of what they are paying to.
Go ahead, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, Mr. Chairman, if you please, will be
Marion Kinney.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Kinney, will you please raise your right hand.
Mrs. Kinney. Mr. Chairman, may I request no pictures.
Mr. Doyle. Be sworn first. You are not before the committee until
you are sworn.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Kinney. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MAEION KINNEY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, CHESTER ADAIR
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Kinney. May I make a request for no pictures '^
Mr. Doyle. I beg your pardon ?
Mrs. Kinney. May I make a request for no pictures ? I prefer not
to have any pictures.
Mr. Doyle. No pictures will be taken while you are testifying.
That is the rule of the committee.
Mrs. Kinney. All right.
Mr. Doyle. We never interfere with the freedom of the press, how-
ever. May I make that clear.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Kinney. My name is Marion Kinney. I live in Seattle.
Mr. Arens. I can't hear you. Would you get closer to the micro-
phone and raise your voice a little bit, please.
Mrs. Kinney. My name is Marion Kinney. I live in Seattle and
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Kinney. I am not working.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mrs. Kinney. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Kinney. Yes ; I am represented by counsel.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Adair. I am Chester Adair, a trustee of the Seattle Bar Asso-
ciation. I am representing Mrs. Kinney at her request, she being in-
digent, xind at the request, as I understand, of both your committee
and the officers of the bar association to help those who are without
counsel.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Kinney
Mr. Sciierer. May I interrupt. Did I understand you to say, Mrs.
Kinney, that you are presently unemployed ? Did you say you ha.d no
occupation ?
Mrs. Kinney. I am not working now.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6959
Mr. ScuEKER. Not Avorking now. Do you receive any compensation
as secretary for the Washington Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that I shall decline to answer
that question because I believe that — that an answer to that question
may tend to abrogate my rights under tlie fifth amendment of the
Constitution in whicli it may be a link in a chain of evidence at some
future Hme. It may be used to incriminate me and against me.
Mr. ScHERER. Now, you are the IMarion Kinney, are you not, who
is one of the plaintiffs in the complaint filed against the members of
this committee in the Federal court yesterday ?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
jVIrs. Kinney. May I have a glass of water, Mr. Chairman? Thank
you.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Kinney. I make <he same answer to that question, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. Scherer. You mean you refuse to tell us whether you are the
Marion Kinney who just yesterday filed a complaint in the Federal
courts ? Do I understand that to be your answer, that you are refusing
to answer on the gi'ounds of the fifth amendment ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I can't possibly see how answering that question would
incriminate her.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Would you please state that question a^rain ?
Mr. Scheiier. I merely asked whether or not you were one of the
petitioners, one of the plaintiffs, in an action filed yesterday in the
Federal court against the members of this subcommittee.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Scherer, for the purpose of the record we
should identify that action as "Civil Action File No. 4287." Merely
for the purpose of the record identification.
Mr. Scherer. Yes. I understand that the chairman has directed
you, Mrs. Kinney, to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. May I see that, Mr. Chairman ?
ivlr. Scherer. Would you hand her a copy of it?
Mr. Doyle. Here is a copy.
( Document handed to witness. )
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you signed it, and swore to it day before
yesterday ?
( The witness examines the document. )
Mrs. Kinney. Didn't you say they weren't going to take any pic-
tures during the session ?
Mr. Doyle. I didn't take the picture. I don't know who did. I was
reading a document here.
6960 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. I think that is an order, a rule of the committee.
Photographer. I wasn't here when they issued that. I just came
in, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I stated the rule, a standing rule of the committee, that
after a person is under oath and while they are testifying, only under
oath, that we permit no pictures if the witness requests no pictures.
But we will not undertake to take jurisdiction of the press and inter-
fere with their freedom before the witness is sworn or afterward.
Photographer. I will cooperate with you.
Mr. Doyle. We believe in the freedom of the press very, very much^
Photographer. Thank you.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Well, I am the Marion Kinney who signed a docu-
ment similar to this.
Mr. Scherer. And you swore to the allegations set forth in that
complaint, did you not, before a notary public ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kjnney. I swore to a document similar to this before a notary
public.
Mr. Scherer. This is the copy that was filed with your original
copy and was given to the members of the committee by the marshal
on their arrival in town. Do you know the notary before whom you
made affidavit?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. ICjnney. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
sons. I don't have to state my constitutional privilege every time,
dol?
Mr. Scherer. No. If you say "for the same reason," we understand
then that you are invoking the fifth amendment. Is that correct?
Mrs. Kinney. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. In refusing to answer the question.
Mrs. Kinney. And therefore we can save time.
Mr. Scherer. You knew Jolin Caughlan to be a member of the
Communist Party, did you not ? Do you not ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, for
the same reasons.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Now, when you swore to the allegations set forth in
this complaint, was everything you said in this complaint true?
(The witness confers with her comisel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean
Mrs. I^NNEY. On the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to tell us that you will not tell this com-
mittee whether the allegations you made in a petition in the Federal
court just yesterday were true, when you swore to those allegations?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kjnney. That is the same question, Mr. Chairman, and I
decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. For the reasons given ?
Mrs. Kinney. On the same grounds.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6961
Mr. ScHEKER. Well, did you make any false statements in this com-
plaint in the Federal court ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Kinney. I believe that is the same question, and I decline to
answer for the same reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. I believe you did say^ however, that you did swear to
the allegations, did you not, contained in that complaint ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I believe tlie' record will have to show what I
answered.
Mr. ScHERER. I am not clear. Wliat does the record show ?
Mrs. Kinney. Get the man to read it.
Mr. Scherer. Would you look, Keporter, and see what she said with
reference to whether or not she swore to the original of this complaint ?
(The record was read by the reporter as follows :)
Mrs. Kinney. Well, I am the Marion Kinney who signed a document similar
to this.
Mr. Scherer. My recollection is that I asked her a subsequent ques-
tion. I will repeat it again. Did you swear to the allegations set
forth in this complaint ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ivinney. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Reporter, will you again search the record to
see whether or not, following the question which you just read,
there was a subsequent question by me with reference to her swear-
ing to the allegations in the complaint? I am not certain, but my
best recollection is that I did ask the question and she said "Yes."
Read the question and answer after the one you read before.
(The record was read by the reporter as follows :)
Mr. ScHEEEiR. And you swore to the allegations set forth in that complaint, did
you not, before a notary public ?
Mrs. Kinney. I swore to a document similar to this before a notary public.
Mr. Scherer. I thought she said that.
That is all the questions I have at this time, Mr. Counsel. Proceed.
I do have one more question.
When you swore, as you said you did, to the allegations set forth
in this complaint, were you telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Upon the advice of my counsel, Mr. Chairman, I
decline to answ^er that question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. That can only lead this committee to draw one conclu-
sion then — perhaps you did not tell the truth insofar as all of the alle-
gations are contained in this complaint.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Is that a question ?
Mr. Scherer. No; it is an observation, a conclusion that I reach.
T think anybody else in the room could only reach that conclusion.
Go ahead, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Doyle. All right, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Kinney, are you now a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
6962 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up.
(Witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Kinney, look at this lady who is standing? there.
Mrs. Kinney. Yes ; I am looking at her.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mrs. Kinxi:y. I am looking at her.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen her before ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. May the record show that Chairman Doyle is leaving
the committee for just time enough to answer an emergency long-
distance phone call at this time, in the next room. I will be right
back.
( Representative Doyle left the hearing room. )
Mr, Arens. Have you ever seen that lady before who is standing:
there? ^
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question upon the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens, That lady standing there is Mrs. Hartle. Just a little
while ago she testified under oath that she knew you as a Communist.
Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question u])on the grounds
as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, we want to display to you a check, photographic
copy of a check on the Pacific National Bank of Seattle, drawn by
Marion Kinney, payable to the order of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look at that check and tell this
committee while you are under oath whether you drew that check.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 619," see appendix, p. 8210.)
(The witness conferred wdth her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. For what grounds ?
Mrs. Kinney. On the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you a photostatic copy of an article
appearing in the Daily People's World of July 1949, an article telling
about formation of a new chapter of the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, with Marion Kinney as vice chairman. Look at that
article, please, and tell this committee whether or not the facts re-
cited therein are true and correct to your knowledge.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 620," see appendix, p. 8211.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. For the same reasons ?
Mrs. Kinney. Precisely.
Mr. Arens. Now, earlier this year, the Subversive Activities Con-
trol Board subpenaed before it Abner Green, or at least he appeared
before the Subversive Activities Control Board with reference to the
functions of that Board, to ascertain the nature of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, Abner Green testified
under oath. During the course of his testimony under oath before the
Subversive Activities Control Board, he was asked about the North-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6963
west Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Representative Doyle returned to the hearing room.)
Here is one particular question I would like to read to you.
Q. Is Mrs. Kinney presently associated or connected in any way witli the
Northwest Committee V
A. I believe she is secretary of the Northwest Comn^ittee at the present time.
Was Mr. Green lying or was he telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens.' Mr. Green likewise identified in connection with your
organization Lenus, L-e-n-u-s, Westman, and Mabel Conrad as officers
of that organization. Was he lying or was he telling the truth?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Now, the subpena which was served upon you calls
upon you to produce before this committee certain documents, does it
not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have those documents in your custody and
control ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, on
the basis that I stated originally of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
whether or not you have custody and control of the documents called
for in the subpena which was served upon you, you would be supply-
ing information which might be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Any answer that I might give to that question might
tend to be used against me and to incriminate me in any proceeding
that might be subsequently instituted.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
now at this time reflect an order and direction to this witness, in view
of the status of the record, to produce forthwith the documents called
for in the subpena duces tecum which was served upon her, and I
further request that the body of the subpena duces tecum be in-
corporated in the record.
Mr. Doyle. I make the order as to the subpena, that it be embodied
in the record. The subpena duces tecum. And I order and direct you,
Mrs. Kinney, to answer that question and produce each and every
record identified in tlie subpena.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 621 and 622," see appendix, pp.
8212, 8213.)
Mr. Scherer. She swore to the original.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; and 'apparently a copy of an original which was
on file in court, because it was a copy served upon Mr. Wheeler, our
chief investigator — I mean a copy from whicli you testified was the
one served ou him by tlie United States marshal last niglit. So I
think Ave are fair to you, in assuming tliat it is a true and correct copy
of the original in court. And in that document you identified and
swore under oatli that you had all of these documents which were
6964 COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
asked for in the subpena duces tecum You swore to that day before
yesterday.
Those are the documents we are asking you to produce now. It did
not incriminate you to swear to that in Federal Court day before
yesterday.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. DoTXE. So I direct you to answer the question and produce
each and every document identified in the subpena, including each
and every document that you identified under oath in the action which
you filed against the members of this committee day before yesterday
in Federal Court in Seattle, of which you said you had custody in that
case.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr, ScHERER. You can go ahead and answer the question.
Mrs. Kinney. Any answer that I might give to that question, Mr.
Chairman, might tend in the direction of incriminating me, and there-
fore I claim the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. It was the subpena requesting those records that you
asked the Federal Court to quash in your action yesterday, and are
you still refusing to produce those records in view of the adverse
ruling of the Federal Court at 9 o'clock this morning, tlie adverse
ruling that you received?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Now, we are going to display to yoU a signature card
from the Pacific National Bank of Seattle signed by yourself as an
officer of the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Also a resolution signed by yourself as an officer for the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look at this card
and the accompanying resolution and see if you will be good enough
to authenticate your signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 623a, b," see appendix, pp. 8214,
8215.)
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Arens. And verify the authenticity of your signature, I should
say.
While she is doing that, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and when
this witness signs a voucher for her per diem that that part of the
voucher bearing her signature be incorporated in the body of the
record for comparison of signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 624," for identification purposes.)^
Mr. Doyle. That order will be made.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, on
the same grounds.
Mr. Arens, Now, we are going to display to you a number of docu-
ments. First is a card from the Fifth Annual Southern California
Conference to Protect the Rights of Foreign Born Americans, in which
you are identified as representative of the Washington Committee ; sec-
ond are documents of the Northwest Committee and the Washington
(^ommittee for Protection of Foreign Born setting forth the program
of activities of those two organizations, witli yourself identified as
cluiirman of various committees and as executive secretary of these
two particular committees.
1 Signed voucher not returned at date of printing of testimony.
COMJVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6965
Mr. Arens. I am grouping these documents now, because we are
very much pressed for time.
Kindly look at those documents and see if you would be good
enough to verify their authenticity for this committee.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 625-630," see appendix, pp. 8216-
8225.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer the question on
the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness, except for this question which
I don't believe we have asked :
Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
on tlie same grounds.
jNIr. Doyle. Any further questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scheker. Witness, since you have represented to the Seattle
Bar Association that you have no funds to employ counsel, I assume
then that you did not pay the fees and the costs involved in filing this
suit in the Federal court yesterday. Will you tell us', then, who did
pay it ?
( The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact that the Communist Party paid the costs
involved and advanced the costs involved in the filing of this litiga-
tion, and is also assuming the counsel fees involved in the presenta-
tion of this matter in the Federal Court?
jNIrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question on the same groiuids.
Mr. Scherer. You signed this complaint. Who are your attorneys
in that action that you filed yesterday ?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, on
the grounds that I cited previously.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you and order you to answer that question, Mrs.
Kinney. It is usual for the attorneys in the State of California, at
least, to sign
Mr. Scherer. One of them did.
Mr. Doyle. Sign pleadings in both the State courts and the Federal
courts.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Scheri^j:. The copy discloses only the notary public.
Mr. Doyle. In this complaint, the copy that we have that was served
on Mr. Wheeler only discloses the notary public.
Mrs. Kinney. Pardon me, I didn't hear your question.
Mr. Scherer. There is a direction by the Chair that you answer my
question as to who is your counsel in the litigation filed in the Federal
court yesterday. Because the copy that was served on the staff of this
committee does not indicate, with the exception of the notary, who
that counsel is.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. May I see that complaint, Mr. Chairman ?
85333— 57— pt. 1 53
6966 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. SciiERER. "Would that make any difference as to answering the
question as to who your counsel is ? We could go over of course and
look at it in. the Federal court in the records of the Federal court but
I think since it is a matter of public record you have no right to invoke
the fifth amendment in refusing to answer the committee's question.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. How could it possibly incriminate you to say who
represented you in the suit filed yesterday? If I ask you whether
one of them is a Communist then you can properly invoke the
fifth amendment. But you can't invoke the fifth amendment in good
faith in refusing to answer my question who your counsel was in the
suit filed yesterday.
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. I^NNEY. Mr. Chairman, I think that it is a matter on the
record as to who the attorneys were that signed the complaint.
Mr. ScHERER. The mere fact that it is on the record then doesn't
relieve you from telling. That fact alone prevents you in my opinion
from invoking the fifth amendment when I asked you who your
counsel were. It is kind of ridiculous, isn't it, to invoke the fifth
amendment ?
IMrs. Kinney. I don't even recall all the counsel.
Mr. ScHERER. You don't know who all the counsel were ? Was John
Caughlan, the man wlio acted as notary public, one of counsel, then ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I don't loiow, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. You don't know whether he was one of counsel?
Who selected these counsel?
Mrs. Kinney. You will have to go to the record and find out.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know John Caughlan, then ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
based upon my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Who selected these counsel, then, for you if you don't
know who they are ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question based upon my
privilege.
Mr. Scherer. Did you read the allegations in that complaint before
you signed the complaint ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
sons.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know what is in that complaint ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
sons, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. "V\Tien you signed that complaint — you told us be-
fore you swore to it — were you in the presence of the notary, John
Caughlan, when you signed that complaint? Did you swear to it in
his presence?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6967
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, for
the same reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. I think it is abundantly clear, now, what the situa-
tion IS. You know John Caughlan to be a member of the Communist
Farty, do you not ?
Mrs. KiNNET. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, for
the same reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. I think it is abundantly clear to the committee and
everyone else just what happened in this case.
Mr. DoYLE. May I ask— I have before me a check, No. 570, drawn
on the Pacific National Bank of Seattle, dated September 1956 It
is signed by you, apparently. This was alreadv presented to you bv
our worthy counsel and there appears to be your signature upon it
for the Washington State Committee for Protection of Forei<rn Born
made payable to the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born I just wish to recall, Mr. Scherer, as in other cases in Los
Angeles and San Francisco, where the funds contributed by, pre-
sumably the unsuspecting American public, are dispensed by persons
Identified under oath as Communists. So again I want to say to the
people that read this record, or hear us, that they want to do that with
their eyes open. They should have their eves opened by this time
One thing more, Mrs. Kinney : I have before me a letter, an open
letter on the Walter-McCarran law, and I will read just two short
paragraphs :
^yl ^ ^r^"!^^ t^is letter because I am very deeply interested in the work of
the Waslnngton Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. The committee
IS an unaffiliated, nonpartisan body— J-ne committee
notice "unaffiliated," Mr. Scherer—
thJunftid spates ^'^'*^''^''''' ""^ democratic rights of aU foreign-born residents of
And then skipping over to the last page— this is 23/ pages lone-
type written— it says : /-ire ig,
nf^°n.?''^'°^ i^""^^ *^^^ *^^ P^"P^^ ^^ Seattle and our State will find a way
of increasing the opposition to the Walter-McCarran law. I think the wS
sXZtrhSf e^sy^^ir*^^"^"^ '' ^^^^^- ^^™ ^^ --^^^ ^' ^^' --'
Do you know who apparently signed that, Mr. Scherer ? Here is a
copy of a signature, John W. Caughlan. He has been identified here
Mrs. Kinney. Will you read the whole thing, Mr. Chairman «
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Doyle. He has been identified here as the father of John Cau^^h-
an, who has been identified here under oath as a Communist who,
Jumselt, IS tlie cliairman, according to the sworn complaint under oatli
in the district court, which we have been discussing, and of which vou
^l\ Y'l'^'^y-^'''^^^ ofth, yesterday, in the Federal court, the com-
plaint showed— were the executive secretary.
I just wish to say this: This 2-page document with which you ap-
parently are familiar, and I only read it because it is addressed as an
open letter. I presume therefore it is a liand-out to the public and
I. . ^Pff?- The address of the gentleman is 4408 92d Avenue, North-
east Bellview, Wash. He attacks unmercifully Francis E Walter
6968 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
the chairman of the full Committee on Un-American Activities. I
just wish to say that Chairman Walter didn't hesitate at a matter of
great personal sacrifice and inconvenience when the Russian Com-
munists began butchering the people of Hungary — men, women, and
children, because of their beliefs and desire for freedom — Chairman
Walter didn't hesitate to go' at once to Hungary and Austria and cut
all the red tape he could to get thousands of refugees from Hungary
into the United States in accordance with the Walter-McCarran bill
and all the other Federal statutes.
Mr. ScHERER. It was the Walter-McCarran Act that made possible
the receipt of these refugees.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. I just wish the record to show that he
didn't hesitate to do that, and they were foreign born, every one of
them.
Mr. ScHERER. They are not interested in those people, because they
are not Communists.
Mr. Doyle. I am mighty proud of my country, that already we are
spending millions of dollars in transportation and otherwise, to give
those people a haven of freedom from the murderous attack of the
very Soviet propaganda which some people before this committee in
the last few years, many of them, support. In fact, the Communists
have a habit of supporting that sort of butchering. At least they
don't speak out against it. They don't resolve against that.
Mr. ScHERER. I resent also the attack on Chairman Walter of this
committee. Chairman Walter happens to be a Democrat and I dis-
agree with him on some things but he is a great American. And cer-
tainly this attack is unjustified.
Mr. Doyle. I knew you felt that way about it and that is the reason
I brought it out, for your information.
The reason he went over there and wore himself out physically to
help protect those people to bring them to this country is the reason
he is not here presiding as chairman of this committee this morning
instead of me being here.
The committee is excused until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:40 p. m., the committee was recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p. m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 1956
(Committee members present : Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please reconvene.
May the record please show, Mr. Reporter, that of the subcommit-
tee of three. Members Scherer of Ohio, on my right, and Doyle of
California, acting as subcommittee chairman, are both personally pres-
ent ; therefore, a legal quorum constituting two is here present.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I should like to announce that the next
witness who was scheduled was Dr. Barney Malbin. His attorney has
appeared and presented to the committee a doctor's certificate to the
effect that Dr. Malbin is confined to the hospital, and would therefore
be unable to appear. I therefore respectfully suggest he be excused
from appearance today, but that he be continued under his subpena for
an indefinite time until he can be called by the committee.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6969
Mr. Doyle. It will be so ordered.
Mr. Aeens. The next witness, if you please, is Mr. Lawrence Sef ton.
Mr. Sef ton, will you please come forward ?
I beg your pardon, I thought she (Mrs. Kinney) was excused.
Mr. Doyle. Excuse me just a minute.
Are there any other questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. No. I didn't see her there.
Mr. Doyle. This witness is excused. Thank you. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lawrence Sef ton, please come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Sefton, will you first be sworn. Do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Seftox. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE SEFTON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
FSANK H. POZZI AND BERKELEY LENT
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Sefton. Did you say name, residence, and occupation ?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Sefton. My name is Lawrence Sefton. I reside in Portland,
Oreg. And I am a waterfront worker.
Mr. Chairman, I would rather not be photographed.
Mr. Doyle. Well, may I make it clear, please, if there are any news-
paper photographers here who were not here when I announced it be-
fore that if the witness objects after he is sworn, the press will please
not take any pictures out of respect for his request. But before a wit-
ness is svrorn, it certainly is freedom of the press to take the picture
and we have no objection. Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr, Arens. IMr. Sefton, you are appearing today in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Sefton. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And j'-ou are represented by counsel?
Mrs. Sefton. I am.
jMr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building and Mr. Lent, Loyalty
Building, Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. I don't believe we got the name of your associate.
Mr. Pozzi. I\Ir. Lent.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to give his first name, please ?
Mr. Pozzi. Berkeley Lent.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Sefton, are you a member of the Communist Part}'' ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sefton. I respectfully decline to answer that question, based
upon the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by the first,
fourth, fifth, and ninth amendments to the Constitution of the United
States.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Sefton, we display to you now a reproduction of
The Lamp, which is the official publication of the American Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born. The issue we display to you is
6970 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
the January 1950 issue, page 2. And in this issue, on this page, among
other things, the following appears:
The Committee for Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born, has issxied an
attractive folder on the Portland deportation cases. A copy of the folder can be
obtained by writing to the committee secretary, Lawrence Sefton, 4616 South-
west Corbett, Portland.Oreg.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you are
accurately described in that document as secretary of that Committee
for Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 14, appendix, p. 7111.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sefton. I respectfully decline to answer that question based
upon the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by the
first, fourth, fifth, ninth, and tenth amendments to the Constitution
of he United States.
Mr. Arens. What is your address in Portland, Oreg. ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sefton. My address is 4616 Southwest Corbett Avenue, Port-
land, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. The record will show of course, Mr. Chairman, that is
the same address of the committee as designated in The Lamp of the
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Bom.
Mr. Doyle. May I suggest this to the witness and counsel : We will
understand, and receive it: as acceptable and sufficient, if, instead of
reading the ground upon which you rely in your refusal to answer, as
long as they are the constitutional grounds, you will just state "On
the same grounds that I gave before." It will save your time and
ours. We will receive it as sufficient pleading of the constitutional
privilege.
Mr. Sefton. Would the Chair prefer that I use the exact language
that the Chair has just recited?
Mr. Doyle. Oh, no. Don't try to do that. But if you will just say
that you rely upon your constitutional grounds the same as you did
before, it will be sufficient.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Dr. Barney Malbin ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sefton. The same grounds, I decline to answer on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Dirk De Jonge ?
Mr. Sefton. Again I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes the
staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. Thank you. Witness and Counsel.
The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Rachmiel Forschmiedt. R-a-c-h-m-i-e-1, Last name
is F-o-r-s-c-h-m-i-e-d-t.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6971
Mr. FORSCHMIEDT. I do.
I respectfully request, Mr. Chairman, that neither the still cameras,
motion picture, or TV cameras be used durin<? my testimony.
Mr. DoTLE. There is no camera being pointed at you now that I can
see. So no photography is going on in the room.
TESTIMONY OF RACHMIEL FORSCHMIEDT, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, CHARLES HOROWITZ
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. FoRSCHMiEDT. Kachmicl Forschmiedt, 6757 37th Avenue, SW.,
Seattle.
Mr. Arens. Keep your voice up, Mr. Forschmiedt, so we can hear
you.
Mr. Forschmiedt. That is my customary speaking voice.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly get a little closer to the microphone.
Mr. Forschmiedt. My occupation, I am self-employed.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Forschmiedt. Self-employed.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, in what line of work ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. I sell.
Mr. Arens. Sell?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What do you sell?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Whatever I do get to sell.
Mr. Arens. What commodity do you sell ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Sunglasses and gifts and things of that sort.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Barbara Hartle ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds of the first amendment, which
guarantees the right to freedom of speech and assembly and to petition
Congress for redress of grievances
Mr. Scherer. I cannot hear.
Mr. xVrens. Could you raise your voice a little, please.
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds of the first amendment to the
United States Constitution which guarantees the right of freedom of
assembly and the right to petition Congress for redress of greivances,
and also freedom of speech, and on the basis of the fifth amendment
to the United States Constitution which protects a" person against self-
incrimination, I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now you are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Horowitz. jMy name, Mr. Chairman, is Charles Horowitz. I
am first vice president of the Seattle Bar Association. I am appear-
ing here by appointment of the president of the association pursuant
to the policy of the association to provide counsel for indigent wit-
nesses.
6972 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up.
(The witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arexs. Now, ]Mr. Forschmiedt, look over to your right there to
the lady who is standinj^. Do you see her ?
Mr, Forschmiedt. Yes.
Mr. Arens. This morning she took an oath before this committee and
testified that she knew you as a member of the Communist Party.
Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Forschmiedt. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, we want to display to you certain signatures for
the Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
in which your name appears. One as past president and the other as
president. Kindly look at these signature cards on the Pacific
National Bank of Seattle, of the Washington Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, and tell this committee while you are under
oath whether or not you are able to identify your signature.
While he is doing that, Mr. Chairman, I respectively suggest that
if, as, and when this witness signs a pay voucher that part of the
voucher bearing his signature be incorporated in the body of the
record.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 631" for identification.)^
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds previously stated I refuse to an-
swer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you a document of the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which has been identified
in this record as the predecessor organization of the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which your name appears
as one of the committee. Kindly look at this docmnent and see if you
won't be good enough to verify the designation there of yourself.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Forscpimiedt. On the grounds previously stated I refuse to
answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds previously stated I refuse to
answer that question.
Mr. Arens. That concludes the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Walter Belka, please come forward.
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you, Mr. Belka.
Mr, Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Belka. I do.
Mr. Doyle, Thank you. Please occupy the witness chair.
1 Signature cards retained in committee files and signed voucher not returned at date
of printing of testimony.
coMJvruisriST political subversion 6973
TESTIMONY OF WALTER EELKA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sykes. Might I direct an inquiry to the Chair?
Mr. Arens. Sui-ely. Is this witness hard of hearing ?
Mr. Sykes. No; he is not hard of hearing.
Mr. Arexs. There was some witness whose counsel said he or she
was hard of hearing and I made a notation. I see it now. It is another
witness.
Mr. Sykes. Mr. Chairman, I am not certain whether the Chair or
the committee counsel has stated officially the scope of these hearings.
Mr. Doyle. We have stated them, and if that is your inquiry I am
sorry we can't take time now to repeat them again.
JVIr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation, Mr. Belka.
Mr. Belka. My name is Walter Belka. I live in Seattle.
Mr. Aeens. Please complete the answer.
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer this question or any further ques-
tions of the conmiittee on the grounds that the scope and purpose of
this committee, as stated by the committee, is beyond the scope of
its mandate, and is in violation of the first amendment to the Constitu-
tion and article I, section 8, of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be now ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct, Witness, that you answer that last question,
please.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
]\Ir. Belka. I must decline to answer the question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In view of the rather poor acoustics here, I don't know
whether you invoked the fifth amendment or not.
Mr. Belka, did you invoke the provisions of the fifth amendment
in response to tliat question ? The noise outside and the acoustics here
are rather poor.
Mr. Belka. I did not.
Mr. Arens. What is your home address ?
Mr. Belka. 2921 12th Avenue South.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
^Ir. BELKiV. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Let's get the record clear. Do the grounds previously
stated with reference to this last principal question include an invoca-
tion of the fifth amendment ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. It did not include it, Counsel.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Belka. It did not include it, Counsel.
6974 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. Belka. Will you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Belka. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Sykes. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up.
(The witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Belka, would you kindly look at the lady there
standing by the window.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you see her ?
Mr. Belka. Could slie come a little closer, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Would you step over a little. It is a little dark
there by the
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I see her.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen her before ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. Yes ; I have seen her before.
Mr. Arens. "Wliere?
Mr. Belka. I think I saw her on TV in some of the previous
hearings.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen her in a Communist Party meeting ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Ar.ENS. This lady took an oath this morning and laid herself
open to perjury prosecution if she lied, and she said that she knew you
as a Communist.
While you are under oath, will you tell this committee was she lying
or was she telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, I would like to invite your attention to a few ex-
hibits. First of all, we have here a document from the Daily Worker,
New York, March 10, 1950 :
Northwest Group Protests Mundt Bill
The Washington Pension Union has sent emergency notices to locals represent-
ing 18,000 members calling for certain protests against the Mundt bill.
That was the anti-Communist bill when it was in the Congress.
Karly Larsen, president, and Walter Belka, secretary of the Northwestern
Washington District Council, International Woodworkers of America.
Kindly look at that document and see if you were appropriately
designated there, and if you were one who was active in that enter-
prise described in the Communist Daily Worker.
COMMTJlSriST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6975
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Belka, I show you two photostats which
have been introduced into this record. One is an application form
for membership in the Northwest Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born and the other is a call to a conference to fight deportation
of certain people under the auspices of the Northwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Your name appears as a member of the
official group in each instance.
(See exhibits Nos. 617 and 618, appendix, pp. 8205-8209.)
(The witness examines document and confers with counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been rather active in defense of the Bill of
Rights in tlie course of the last few years?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Belka. Well, I think I have been.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what you have done in defense of the Bill of
Rights in the course of the last few years?
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arens. As an upstanding citizen, you certainly wouldn't feel
ashamed of anj^thing you did to defend the great Bill of Rights,
would 3'ou ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Belka. No ; I think everybody should defend the Bill of Rights,
Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. I want to see if you can help us.
Here is an article from the Daily Worker of June 6, 1949 : "Men of
labor and civic leaders throughout Nation voice indignation." It
talks about Judge Medina, who tried the 11 Communist traitors in
New York City, and we see here the following :
Speaking for tbe Northern Washuigton District Council of the International
Woodworliers of America, Karly Larsen, president and Walter Belka, secretary,
wired Medina : "Your high-handed action makes a mockery of the Bill of Rights."
Look at that document and see if that is what you mean when you
were telling us about your defense of the Bill of Rights, your attack
upon the Federal judge who sentenced 11 Communists traitors to the
penitentiary.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 632," see appendix, p. 8226.)
(The witness examines document and confers with counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I have an opinion on that, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
My. Belka. I have an opinion on that.
Mr. Arens. We would be delighted to have you express it.
Mr. Belka. I would be delighted to discuss it with you probably
someplace else.
Ml'. Arens. You mean after you are released from the pains and
penalties of j'^our oath?
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer for the groimds previously given.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, witness and counsel. You are both excused.
6976 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr. Dirk De Jonge, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
to tell the .truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. De Jonge. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DIRK DE JONGE
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. De Jonge. My name is Dirk De Jonge. I am a retired lumber
worker, and I live at 1415 Southwest Alder Street, Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. De Jonge. Yes, I was served a subpena.
Mr. Arens. Mr. De Jonge, you are not represented by counsel?
Mr. De Jonge. No, I am not.
Mr. Arens. Mr. De Jonge, are you a Communist ?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. De Jonge, I want to lav before you first of all a
document from the International Labor Defense, which this record
shows is a predecessor organization to the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Dirk De Jonge is listed here as a
member of the national committee.
Kindly look at this document issued by the International Labor
Defense, and tell this committee whether or not you are accurately
designated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 633," see ai)pendix, p. 8227.)
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer this question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Homer L. Owen,
0-w-e-n ?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Owen took an oath before this committee and laid
his liberty on the line and said, while he was under oath, that he knew
you as a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he lying or was
he telling the truth ?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that question, also.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. De Jonge, are you connected with the Oregon
Com.mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you, if you please, sir, another
document. It is from the Daily Worker of December 1934, with
reference to a trial of Edward Denny, Daily Worker salesman,
charged with criminal syndicalism. According to this article in Port-
land, Don Cluster, 21-year-old organizer of the Young Communist
League has been sentenced to jail and Dirk De Jonge, Communist
candidate for mayor in the last municipal election, to 7 years.
Kindly look at this document and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether you were accurately described there.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 634," see appendix, p. 8228.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6977
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer this question on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that jo\i are now one of the
chairmen, or you recently were one of the chairmen, of the Oregon
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
INIr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that question also.
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. De Jonge. You are excused from fur-
ther attendance.
Mr. Arens. Mary Jane Tancioco, T-a-n-c-i-o-c-o.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Tancioco. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MES. MAHY JANE TANCIOCO, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, FSANK H. POZZI AND BEEKELEY LENT
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Tancioco. My name is jMrs. Mury Jane Tancioco. My address
is 7805 Southwest Taylors Ferry Road, Portland, Oreg. I am a stenog-
rapher-receptionist.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Tancioco. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourselves.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg. ; Berke-
ley Lent, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg.
Mrs. Tancioco. Sir, I would prefer not to be televised. I don't
know whether the television cameras are operating but I would like
to ask
Mr. Arens. It is off noAv, I believe.
Mrs. Tancioco. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. What was your maiden name, ma'am ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. My maiden name was Brewster, B-r-e-w-s-t-e-r.
Mr. Arens. Then you have been known both as Mary Jane Brewster
and as Mary Jane Tancioco ?
Mrs. Tancioco. Tan-chi-yoko.
Mr. Arens. Tan-chi-yoko.
Mrs. Tancioco. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you an original letter of the Com-
mittee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born, dated February 9^
1953, bearing the name Mary Jane Tancioco as 'corresponding sec-
6978 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
retary. Kindly look at this document and tell this committee whether
or not that is your signature and whether or not you are accurately
described therein as corresponding secretary of that organization.
^Docment marked "Exhibit No. 635," see appendix, p. 8229.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question
based on the rights, privileges and immunities afforded to me by the
first, fourth, fifth, ninth and tenth amendments to the Constitution
of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully whether or not that is your signature you would
be supplying information which could be used against you in a crimi-
nal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated,
sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest the witness be ordered to an-
swer that question.
Mr. DoYLn. I direct you to answer that question.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Tancioco. Sir, may I request that you repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly fear that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not that is your signature on this document,
and whetlier-or not you are or have been the executive secretary of
this organization, you w^ould be supplying information which might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with her comisel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Do you know a person by the name of Owen, Homer Owen?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)"
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds
previously stated, sir.
Mr. Arens. In 1954 Mr. Owen took an oath before the Committee
on Un-American Activities, laid his liberty on the line, and said while
he was under oath, subject to the pains and penalties of perjury, that
he knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Owen lying or was he telling
the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline again, sir, to answer on the
grounds stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I display to you, if you please, a reproduction
of a document of the Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign
Born, calling for the repeal of the McCarran-Walter Act, attack-
ing the act, m which your name appears. Kindly look at this docu-
ment and tell this committee whether or not you are connected with
the Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 636," see appendix, p. 8230.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6979
Mr. DoYLK. Any questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions, but I want to reiterate here, and 1
know that some witnesses and counsel are in the hearing room now
who were not here this morning, that this committee recognizes as a
committee of Congress the right of any American citizen to petition
us or to object to any legislation, both that which is on the books and
that which is contemplated. We, for instance, recognize the constitu-
tional riglit of the Communist Party or the Committee for the Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, or any group or any individual to petition
Congress. But we feel full well that we are entitled to know the
identity of the people or groups that are petitioning Congress in order
that we might be able to judge the full weiglit and credit which shall
be given to any petitioning individual or group.
I think, Madam, I should state while you are on the stand, as I
did this morning to some others, that we don't object to the Communist
Party petitioning us. AVe do think that they ought to do it in their
own name, instead of doing it through a dummy organization which
they don't reveal is controlled by the Communist Party. And that is
the main purpose of this hearing, to examine the extent to which the
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in the NortliAvest is con-
trolled by the Communist conspiracy.
We have no objection to the Communist Party petitioning us, nor
do we have objection to the Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born petitioning us, except that we do now know by these hearings and
otherwise that the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in
the Northwest is dominated and controlled by identified Communists.
And, therefore, it is the Communist conspiracy in the Northwest which
is in fact petitioning us, undisclosed, under the g! ise of the American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, instead of bona fide
patriotic citizens.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Arens. Just one more question, if you please.
Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline to answer on the same con-
stitutional grounds.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Witness and Counsel, thank you. You are excused.
Mr. Arens. James S. Fantz.
Mr. Pozzi. Is the witness excused from further attendance ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. F-a-n-t-z.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Fantz. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES S. FANTZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
FRANK II. POZZI AND BEHKEIEY LENT
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Fantz. I would like to request that no pictures, television, or
movies be taken, please.
6980 COMAIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. That will be observed. The press will gladly cooperate
with us. They will observe your request.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Fantz. My name is James S. Fantz. I reside in Portland,
Oreg., and I am employed as a maritime worker.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mr. Fantz, as a maritime
worker ?
Mr. Fantz. On the waterfront.
Mr. Arens. What capacity ?
Mr. Fantz. As a longshoreman.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Fantz. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Fantz. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourselves.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg. ; Berke-
ley Lent, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Fantz, we display to you now two letters of
different dates, on stationery of the Committee for Protection of
Oregon's Foreign Born, both calling for funds and activities to re-
peal the Immigration and Nationality Act. On these letterheads
your name appears as a sponsor. Kindly look at those documents,
please, sir, Avhile you are under oath, and tell this committee v/hether
or not you are accurately and appropriately identified there.
(See exhibit Nos. 635 and 636, appendix, pp. 8229, 8230.)
(The witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
Mr. Fantz. I respectfully decline, Mr. Cliairman, to answer that
question based u])on the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded
to me by the 1st, 4th, oth, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Constitu-
tion of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Fantz. I decline to answer that on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr, Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Fantz. I decline on tlie same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we display to you, Mr. Fantz, a pliotostatic copy
of an article apjjearing in the Daily JPeople's World, April 1955, in
which a number of people are attackmg and denouncing the Brownell-
Butler law. That was the law that was pending in the Congress to
enable the Defense De[)artment to oust from defense facilities Com-
munist saboteurs. Among those who are participating in this enter-
prise and protesting the Brownell-Butler law, is listed here James
Fantz, Portland, longshoreman's Local 8, in which Mr. Fantz is
quoted as saying :
The Browuell law is a hoax ou the American people and the delegates should
bring back the discussion to the rank and tile. "Today," he said, "there is no free
discussion and we must speak out."
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6981
Will you kindly, while yon are under oath, speak out and tell this
committee whether or not you are the Fantz who was protesting this
anti-Communist legislation ?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 637," see appendix, p. 8231.)
(The witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
Mr. Fantz. Would you please read back the exact wording of the
question?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Keporter, would you kindly read it to the witness?
(The reporter read from his notes as requested. )
Mr. Fantz, I decline to answer this on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witnes.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask, Mr. Fantz, may we have the benefit of any
other criticism or suggestion you may have, with regard to the in-
ternal security provisions, the antisubversive and anti-Communist
provisions of any of our Federal statutes ? I ask you that so if you
do have any criticism or suggestion, only relating to the antisubver-
sive sections of Federal statutes — that is what we are concerned with
in these hearings — I will be glad to get them from you.
(The Avitness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Fantz. Not at this time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. I thank you. The witness is excused. Counsel, also.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, will be Myrna Ander-
son. M-j'-r-n-a Anderson, A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. Please come forward.
Mr. Barnett. Mr. Chairman, I am one of the Seattle attorneys
appointed by the bar representing the civil rights committee. The
witness has asked me to precede her for reasons of health to ask that
the Chair instruct or request photographers not to take flash pictures
of her and she does not wish to be televised. She was under a tuber-
culosis operation as late as 1953 and she has been nervous and feels
tliat this will be injurious to her.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I will not instruct the press to waive their rights
of freedom. However, they have heard your statement and they are
as anxious to protect the rights, the health, of any citizen as we are.
As you know, the rule is we will not instruct the press in any way
prior to the time a witness is sworn.
Mr. Barnett. The witness feels, Mr, Chairman, that she was com-
pelled by subpena to be here before being sworn. I feel that she is
under protection of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. I know. But we think that maybe waiting an hour or
2 or 3 isn't too long for a witness to wait on a busy hearing of this
kind. I don't think so, Counsel. So let us call your witness and we
will make this as convenient as we can and as easy as we can. "We
regret her illness.
Do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and notli-
ing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Anderson. I do.
Mr. Doyle. May I have the record show tliat I thank the press for
iiot photographing her prior to the time tliat she was sworn. I think
the press deserves a compliment for cooperation.
Mr. Barneit. We certainly thank them, Mr. Chairman.
85333— 57— pt. 1 54
6982 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
TESTIMONY OF MISS MYRNA ANDERSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ARTHUR G. BARNETT
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Miss Anderson. My name is Myrna Anderson. I live in Seattle and
I work as a secretary.
Mr, Arens. Are you a Communist ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer that question under the self-
incrimination clause of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Barbara Hartle ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up ?
(Witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arens. Miss Anderson, would you please look to your right
there at Mrs. Hartle. Did you ever see her before ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds, fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. She came forward in public testimony under oath and
said she knew you as a Communist, a member of the Communist con-
spiracy. Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer that question on the basis
of the self-incrimination provisions of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, vre lay before you two documents, one is an appli-
cation form for membership in the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of the Foreign Born; the other is a call to a Northwest con-
ference under the auspices of the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, which is identified here on this document as
an affiliate of tlie American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. Your name appears in both documents as an officer or spon-
sor, as the case may be, of the organization.
Kindly look at tliose documents and see if you will be good enough
to verify the authenticity of the designation of yourself.
rSee exhibit Nos. 617 and 618, appendix, pp. 8205-8209.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer the question on the basis
of the self-incrimination provisions of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected, or have you been connected, with the
United Office and Professional Workers Union?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer that question on the basis
of the self-incrimination provision of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. ]Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness to an-
swer that question, whether she is connected with that union.
Mr. Doylt:. You heard the question. Witness?
(The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. Yes ; I heard the question.
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question.
( The Avitness confers witli her counsel. )
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer the question on the grounds
previously stated.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6983
Mr. Arens. Now, this document which we first displayed to you,
identifies you as an official of the United Office and Professional
Workers Union, indeed, as president of one of the locals of that
organization. Is that a correct designation?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr, Arens. Where do you work now ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I am employed by a local automobile firm.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been so employed ?
(The w^itness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. Approximately 3 years.
Mr. Arens. And what was your employment immediately prior to
that time?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I was in Furland Sanitorium.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment prior to that time?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. In view of the record and the exhibits, Mr. Chairman,
identifying this lady with the United Office and Professional Workers
Union, I respectfully suggest that this record at this point reflect
tlie fact that the United t)ffice and Professional Workers Union was
ejected from the CIO because the CIO found that organization
was not in truth and in fact a labor organization but was controlled
by the Communist conspiracy.
]\rr. DoTLE. The record will so show.
JSIr. Arens. Are you connected with the American Peace Crusade ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. I must decline to ansY\'er on the basis of the fifth
iimendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you Miss or Mrs. ?
Miss Anderson. I am Miss Anderson.
Mr. Arens. I want to exhibit to you now, if you please, a copy of
the Daily Peoples World of February 1951 :
Pkace Poll Booms
A peace comrnittee of Local 35, Distributive Processing and Office Worlcers, is
gathering signatures to thie mass "peace poll" sponsored by tlie American Peace
Crusade, President Slyrna Anderson announced this weelv.
And so forth.
Kindly look at tlie document and tell this committee while you
are under oath whether or not you were accurately described there.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 638," see appendix, p. 8232.)
(The witness confers with her coimsel and examines document.)
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoYEE. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No, Mr. Doyle; I have no questions.
6984 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. I think before the witness is excused, in view of tlie
questions and answers that were given and made at this point, it is
proper for me to call attention to the fact that when I was here in
Seattle on June 14 and 15, 1954, on this committee, I read into the
record a portion of news relase issued by Walter P. Reuther. It was
pertinent at that time, and I think it is pertinent right here because it
refers to UAW-CIO. I will just take the time to read four sentences
by Mr. Reuther, national president of UAW-CIO at that time, and
I quote :
We have no quarrel with the professed purposes of the House Committee on
Un-American Activities. Each witness appearing before these committees must
of course make his own individual decision as to the course of action which
he will follow in his testimony. This is a matter of individual conscience and
judgment. However, we in UAW-CIO sincerely urge every witness called before
the House Un-American Activities Committee, if it is at all possible to do so, to
avoid using the fifth amendment.
Just that part of the record as I made it in 1954 in this city.
Mr. Arens. That will conclude the staif interrogation of this
witness,
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused, and counsel.
Mr. Arens. Sarah Hortense Lesser. H-o-r-t-e-n-s-e L-e-s-s-e-r.
Please come forward.
Miss Lesser. I don't see my attorney. Might I go and look for my
attorney ?
Mr. Arens. Surely. There she comes.
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Lesser. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take a chair.
TESTIMONY OF MISS SARAH HORTENSE LESSER, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Miss Lesser. My name is Sarah Lesser. My address is 317 Second
and Cherry Building. I am by occupation an attorney.
Mr. Arens. Is your name Miss or Mrs. ?
Miss Lesser. Miss.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Miss Lesser, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
Miss Lesser. You can put your hand down. We can see your
grin. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Miss Lesser. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Sykes. Jay G. Sykes.
Mr. Arens. Miss Lesser, give us if you please, just a thumbnail
sketch of yo^ir education.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6985
Miss Lesser. I am a graduate of the University of Michigan, with
a bachelor of arts degree, and I am a gi-aduate of the University of
Washington with a law degree.
Mr, Arens. And when did you receive your law degree ?
Miss Lesser. In 1951.
Mr. Arens. And you are admitted to practice law in the courts of
the State of Washington ?
Miss Lesser. In the courts of the State of Washington, and in the
Federal courts and in the Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. You are admitted to practice law in the Immigration
Service, too?
Miss Lesser. That is right, and the circuit court of appeals.
Mr. Arens. You are admitted in the Federal court also?
Miss Lesser. That is right.
I\Ir. Arens. Miss Lesser, when you received your license to practice
law in the courts of this State, did you take an oath to support and
defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, for-
eign and domestic ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. Yes ; of course.
Mr. Arens. At the time you took that oath, were you a member of
the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers wdth her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. I have a statement to make at this point, and I want
to get it in.
Mr. Sciierer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion, ]Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DoTLE. You are instructed to answer.
ISIiss Lesser. I am going to decline to answer that question and I
would like to read a short statement to explain my answer.
Mr, Arens. Just a minute. How long is that statement ?
Miss Lesser. It will take about 1 minute.
Mr. Arens. So we know the source of that statement, was it written
by a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. It was written by me. And I don't need anybody
telling me how to w^rite a statement. As I told you, I have two degrees
and I would think that that Avould be sufficient to convince you that I
can write as I please.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, in addition to your degi-ees, wlien you wrote that
statement wore you a member of a conspiratorial apparatus designed to
destroy the Constitution of the United States ?
Miss Lesser. There is a question pending and I said I wished to
answer, read the statement, before I continued and there is a question
pending and I cannot answer two questions at the same time.
Mr. Arens. Accept my apologies, lady. You go right ahead.
Miss Lesser. I have been subpenaed to appear before this committee
to aid it in an investigation w'hich, as to stated purpose, is illegal in
my opinion. The powers given to CongTess are eniunerated in article I,
section 8 of the Constitution. The powers given to the executive and
judicial branchas of the (iovernment are also enumerated in the Con-
stitution. Any other powers remain in the people. And these powers
granted to Congress do not include — excuse me — the inquiry into
legitimate political activity.
g986 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The first ten amendments of our Constitution were adopted to in-
sure that all citizens of our country could not have certain of their
rights usurped by any branch of the Government. And so the first
amendment states in part that Congress shall make no law abridging
the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the rights of the people
peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government for a redress
of their grievances. Under that provision it appears to me that not
only President Eisenhower and Mrs. Eleanor Koosevelt and other
dignitaries may state that they consider the Walter-McCarran Act
and other legislation unwise and work for its amendment, revision
or appeal, but I can do it, too. And so can any person.
Mr. Arens. Of course you can.
Miss Lesser. So can any person in this room.
Mr. Arens. Of course you can. We want you to tell us what you
have done along that line.
Miss Lesser. And Congress has no power to prevent it and there-
fore cannot legislate to prevent peaceable opposition. And since Con-
gress has no power to so legislate in this field, it has no such power
to investigate it.
And I wish to point out to the committee that in Rwnely v. United
States the Court held that Congress could not give — the Court held
in that case that Congress could not give a committee power to
investigate activities intended to influence, encourage, promote or re-
tard legislation or to investigate activities designed to influence legis-
lation indirectly by influencing public opinion, as this committee has
done, because this is beyond any power conferred on Congress by the
Constitution and violates the first amendment.
Therefore, I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment and article I, section 8 of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to invoke the fifth amendment ?
Miss Lesser. No, I do not.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
Miss Lesser. I answer as before. If you want me to repeat the
statement, I will.
Mr. Arens. I just want to be sure that the record is clear on whether
or not you have invoked the fifth amendment on that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. I will reconsider that. I am not now a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a Communist ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Miss Lesser. Will you define that ? Do you mean that as a matter
of philosophical belief or as a member of an actual Communist
Party?
Mr. Arens. You tell what is in your mind, if you want to tell us.
Miss Lesser. You tell us what is in your mind. You are the ques-
tioner.
Mr. Arens Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Lesser. No, I have never.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been under Communist discipline?
Miss Lesser. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Arens. Under the control and responsible to the will of the
Communist Party.
Miss Lesser. No.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6987
Mr. Akens. Do you know a lady by the name of Barbara Hartle?
Miss Lesser. Certainly I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember a conversation you had with her some
time ago, in which you talked about the Conmiunist Party ?
Miss Lesser. Xow let me explain something to you. I was an attor-
ney in a case involving Barbara Ilartle. I never met her before I met
her up in jail, and I was an attorney at the time called in to represent
her. xVnd any conversations I had with her were conversations con-
cerning representation of her and other codefendants in a case. And
I have had no personal conversations with that woman whatsoever.
And I would request at this time that you have repeated in the record
the question you asked her, the answer she made, and you will see how
equivocal it is.
Mr. Arens. Tell us have you had any conversations with Barbara
Hartle
Miss Lesser. I have had many conversations.
Mr. Arexs. Just a moment, please, ma'am. Have you had any con-
versations with Barbara Plartle other than those conversations which
were in the capacity of attorney and client ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. They were not, except that I may say this: That
the
Mr. Arens. Let's get the record clear. You are a lawyer and you
know what it means to clear the record. Tell us have you had any
conversation with Barbara Hartle other than the conversations as
attorney and client ?
Miss Lesser. Now I am going to explain that answer, now, and you
cannot stop me. I was attorney for several people besides Barbara
Hartle at the same time. And I want to make that clear, and that I
have a duty as an attorney and an attorney-client privileged com-
munications, as you know them — you are all attorneys here — and that
I can only go so far in answering this. And I will say that I have
had no conversations with Barbara Hartle except as a result of repre-
senting her or other codefendants of hers.
Mr. Arens. Let's be sure of something here.
]Mr. Scherer. Witness, what would your representation of Barbara
Hartle, if there was such representation, have to do with the statement
by you that you had been subjected to Communist discipline?
Miss Lesser. I never made such a statement. I will deny it equivo-
cally [sic].
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live in Chicago ?
Miss Lesser. Yes, I lived in Chicago.
Mr. Arens. When did you live in Chicago ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Maybe this will help you : Were you educational direc-
tor of Branch 16 of the Communist Party in Chicago in 1942 and 1943?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever attended meetings of the Communist
Party in Chicago ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. The Loj^alty Board made the determination that I did
not. You know that.
6988 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Were you ever expelled from the Communist Party?
Miss Lesser. I never belonged to the Communist Party so I could
never have been expelled from it.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live in Toledo, Ohio.
Miss Lesser. Yes, I have lived in Toledo, Ohio.
Mr. Arens. While you were in Toledo, Ohio, in the early 40's, were
you an active member of the Communist Party in that city ?
Miss Lesser. No, I was not.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend Communist Party meetings in
Toledo, Ohio?
Miss Lesser. What is a Communist Party meeting in vour defini-
tion?
Mr, Arens. You know what a Communist Party meeting is.
Miss Lesser. No, I don't.
Mr. Arens. You told about these degrees you have.
Miss Lesser. I have told all about the degrees. I have also told
you I am an attorney and I have been in plenty of things and hearings
and court actions where people like Barbara Hartle have defined Com-
munist Party meetings.
Mr. Arens. The Supreme Court of the United States has said what
the Communist Party is. It is a conspiratorial apparatus designed to
overthrow 'this Government by force and violence.
ISIiss Lesser. I ask that you define to me what a Communist Party
meeting is.
Mr. Arens. I just did. I alluded to a decision of the Supreme
Court of the United States.
Miss Lesser. Go ahead, I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you a photostatic copy of an
article in the Communist Daily Worker, January 1953 : "150 Women
Sign a Plea for Amnesty for 11."
These are the 11 Communist traitors in New York City who were
convicted under the Smith Act for conspiring to overthrow the Gov-
ernment of the United States by force and violence. Among these
150 women who are interceding on behalf of these traitors is, accord-
ing to this article, Sarah H. Lesser. Kindly look at this document
and see if you are accurately described in that enterprise.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 639," see appendix, p. 8232.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. Yes, I signed that. I am proud of it. I feel that I
am also in the category with Mrs. Eleanor Eoosevelt in feeling that
the Smith Act should be repealed.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Washington State Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. Only in an attorney-client relationship.
Mr. Arens. Do you represent them professionally ?
Miss Lesser. When and where — ^^Yill you please be more specific?
Mr. Arens. You would know if j^ou represent them.
Miss Lesser. I have. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And do you represent the committee or do you represent
aliens who are up for deportation for whom the committee has inter-
ceded?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6989
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. I don't understand that question. Will you please
simplify it ?
Mr. Arens. I am really surprised.
Miss Lesser. You are i
Mr. Arens. Do you represent the committee in its litigation, or do
you represent aliens in their litigation with the Government ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. And are you paid by the Washington State Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born? That is very clear.
Miss Lesser. That is not a clear question. That is 3 questions in 1.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Sykes. It is three questions.
Mr. Doyle. Try, Witness. It would seem to me it is not at all con-
fusing. Try. It is rather a simple question for a trained lawyer
like you.
Miss Lesser. No, it isn't. There are too many questions involved,
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. I have represented many aliens, and I have repre-
sented the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. What is the nature of the representation of the Wash-
ington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born? That is all I am
trying to ask.
Miss Lesser. Mere legal representation.
Mr. Arens. In what kind of proceedings?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. Judicial proceedings.
Mr. Arens. Before what agencies ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. The Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. Yes, I have met him.
Mr. Arens. Do you and Abner collaborate on certain matters?
Miss Lesser. No, he is not an attorney.
Mr. Arens. I know he is not an attorney. Did you and Abner
both participate in a dinner meeting in Washington Hall in 1954?
Do you recall?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Arens. According to the account we have of the meeting, Abner
Green talked there and Sarali Lesser talked there.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. Well, it would help me recollect if you would identify
what you are reading from.
Mr. Arens. It is an account of the meeting. We have sources of
information that give us that account.
Miss Lesser. I know that.
Mr. Arens. Of certain meetings. An account of a meeting held in
Washington Hall in 1954 ; it is an account of the meeting and it depicts
you as one of the principal orators there.
Do you recall that it was sponsored by the Washington State Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born ? And Abner Green, a hard-
core international Communist agent, was a guest of honor?
6990 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Miss Lessee. What is the question, please ?
Mr. Arens. Do you recall addressing the gjathering and orating at
that time ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. What is the date on that?
Mr. Arens. March 6, 1954.
Miss Lesser. I don't particularly recall that date. I do know that
■when I have — that that was approximately the date when I went to
San Francisco and won in the circuit court of appeals in a case clari-
fying the ruling in the Walter-McCarran Act as to what entry meant,
and won the Alcantra case. And when I returned I did make — it was
not oratory, it was a report of what occurred down there.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Roderich Holmgren, H-o-l-iu-g-r-e-n ?
Miss Lesser. Yes, I do.
Mr. Arens. And his wife?
Miss Lesser. Yes, I do.
Mr. Arens. Did you live with them in Chicago for a little while?
Miss Lesser. I did. They were very good friends of mine and when
I got out of the Arni}^ and had no place to stay and could find no
place to stay, I stayed with them for a short while until I found a place
to live, yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know they were members of the Communist
conspiracy ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. On legal advice, I am not answering that question be-
cause it is a leading question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. Are you stating that these two people were members
of the Communist Party, and that I knew that fact ?
Mr. Arens. I am asking you, yes.
Miss Lesser. That isn't what you said before. No.
Mr. Arens. You did not know they were Communists?
Miss Lesser. I did not know they were members of the Communist
Party. No.
Mr. ScuERER. Wait a minute.
Miss Lesser. I am not stating that they are members, either. Be-
cause I do not know that fact.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know whether they are Communists? Did
you know whether they were Communists?
Miss Lesser. Do you mean members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. ScHEUER. I didn't say that.
Miss Lesser. No, I have no knowledge in the short time I stayed
with them. No, I didn't have no such knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. Didn't you attend Communist Party meetings with
them ?
Miss Lesser. No. I did not.
Mr. Scherer. You are sure?
Miss Lesser. Yes.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6991
Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
<;lude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DorLE. Mr. Scherer, any other questions?
Mr. Scherer. Yes. You were one of counsel, were you not, who filed
this suit in Federal court yesterday on behalf of Caughlan, Kinney,
Hatten, Corr, and Paulson against this subcommittee?
Miss Lesser. I was not one of original counsel, no.
Mr, Scherer. What do you mean, not of original counsel ?
Miss Lesser. I was added later.
JMr. Scherer. Then you were one of comisel ?
Miss Lesser. In court this morning, yes.
Mr. Scherer. Now do you know that all of those people, with
perhaps the exception of John W. Caughlan, are members of the Com-
munist Party ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Miss Lesser. I would have no way of Imowing that, sir.
Mr. Scherer. You have never been in a Communist Party meeting
with any one of the four ?
Miss Lesser. No, sir.
Mr. Scherer. All right. That is all.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. And, Counsel, thank you very
much.
Mr. Doyle. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon a short recess was taken. Committee membei-s pres-
ent : Representatives Doyle and Scherer. )
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee M'ill please reconvene. And may the
record please show that a legal quorum is present of the subcommittee.
Congressman Scherer, of Ohio, and Congressman Doyle, of Los
Angeles, Calif, are both present, therefore, a legal quorum of the sub-
committee of three is here and we will proceed.
For the benefit of counsel and witnesses, I am pleased to say that
we are making good progress, and unless I make an announcement to
the contrary, then, the committee will, when we adjourn this afternoon,
stand in recess until 9 a. m. tomorrow morning.
And may I thank the people who are guests in the hearing room,
because you are wonderfully quiet and cooperative, and the committee
appreciates it very much. May I say just while we are waiting for the
witness that you are the most cooperative group that we have met on
the Pacific coast. That goes for the witnesses and lawyers, also. We
appreciate it very much.
Your first witness, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Scherer. Mr, Chairman, before we proceed I move that the
testimony of the last witness, Sarah Lesser, be referred to the Depart-
ment of Justice to determine whether or not perjury has been com-
mitted before this committee.
Mr. Doyle. All those in favor say "aye."
Mr. Scherer. "Aye."
Mr. Doyle. "Aye."
It is so ordered that the testimony of Miss Lesser, the last witness
before the subcommittee, will be referred to the Department of Justice
by the committee.
6992 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr, Arens. Raymond Glover, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Glover. I do.
Mr. Do^-LE. Thank you. Will you take the chair. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF RAY (EAYMOND) GLOVEE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Akens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Glover. My name is Ray Glover. I live in Enumclaw, Wash.
Mr, Arens. And kindly complete the answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. I am an independent logoer,
Mr. Arens. I am having difficulty hearing you. Would you say
that again, please ?
Mr. Glover. I am an independent logger,
Mr. Arens, An independent logger ?
Mr, Glover, That is right.
Mr. Arens, You are appearing today, Mr. Glover, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. GLO^^•^R. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Stkes. J ay Sykes,
Mr. Arens. Mr, Glover, this morning Barbara Hartle took an oath
and testified that while she was a member of the Communist Party
she knew you as a Communist,
We want to give you an opportunity to deny that now while you
are under oath if you would care to do so.
Was Mrs, Hartle lying or was she telling the truth when she said
she knew you as a Communist ?
(The witness confers with his counsel,)
Mr, Glovek. I decline to answer that question and all further ques-
tions directed to me on the grounds that the scope and purpose of
these hearings as stated by the committee is beyond the scope of the
mandate of this committee, and violates, nu.mber one, the first amend-
ment of the Constitution ; and two, article I, section 8 of the Consti-
tution,
Mr, Scherek. Mr. Chairman, I ask you direct the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. DoYT.E. Witness, I direct that you answer the question, please.
Mr. Glover. I decline to answer
(The witness confers with his counsel,)
INfr, Glo\t-:r, I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated,
Mr, Sctierer, Mr. Chairman, may I inquire?
Witness, do I imderstand that you are not Invoking the fifth amend-
ment in refusing to answering the question of Counsel ?
(The witness confers with his counsel,)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6993
Mr, Glover. Yes, that is right. I am not invoking it.
Mr. ScHERER. You understand that when the chairman directs you
to answer the question, it is because we do not accept your answer and
feel that if you do not answer the question, then you are subjecting
yourself to possible contempt proceedings? Do you understand thatl
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Go ahead, Counsel.
Mr. Glover. Yes ; I believe so.
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you, Mr. Glover, two documents.
The first is a document of the Northwest Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born, in which your name appears. The second is a call to
the Northwest Conference to Fight Deportation, under the auspices
of the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which
your name appears as sponsor, Ray Glover, secretary, International
Woodworkers of America.
(See exhibits Nos. 617 and 618, appendix, pp. 8205-8209.)
Kindly look at these two documents and tell this committee whether
or not you are accurately described.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gloa^r. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arens. What was your connection with an IWA local?
Mr. Glover. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer that question.
Mr. Glo\^r. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds pre-
viously given.
Mr. Scherer. Now, so that the record is clear, do I understand, Wit-
ness, you are not invoking the fifth amendment as a basis for your
declination to answer ? Am I right ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. You are right.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to lay before you a copy of the Daily
AVorker of June 1949. "Men of labor and civic leaders throughout
the Nation voice indignation." It is all about the indignation voiced
on the trial and conviction of 11 Communist traitors down in New
York City. Among those who are voicing their indignation, accord-
ing to this Communist publication, is Ray Glover, identified here as a
business agent of the Enumclaw IWA Local. Enumclaw, E-n-u-m-
c-l-a-w.
Kindly look at that document and see if you are one of those who
expressed your indignation. And if so, if you are accurately identified.
(See exhibit No. Gn2, appendix, p. 8226.)
(The witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
Mr. Glover. My name appears there. But I refuse to answer the
question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Doyle. Witness, I direct you to answer that last question.
Mr. Glo\t^.r. I respectfully repeat that I refuse to answer on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. No more questions of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. D0Y1.E. Mr. Scherer, any questions?
6994 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER. Was your first question, Counsel, with reference to
his present membership in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arens. I do not remember.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, I will ask it: Are you presently a member
of tlie Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. No.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party last
year?
Mr. Gloatir. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Scherer. And you are not invoking the fifth amendment in de-
clining to answer that question as to whether you were a member of
the Communist Party last year ? Is my assumption correct. Witness ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Glover. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party yester-
day?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. I refuse to answer, decline to answer, on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Glover. I must still repeat that I decline to answer on the basis
and grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you under Communist Party discipline this min-
ute ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. Of course not.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline after you
were subpenaed to appear before the Committee on Un-American
Activities in this hearing ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. Of course not.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline a month
ago?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. GL0^^:R. What do you mean ?
Mr. Arens. If you can deny the question twice you ought to know
what I mean. Were you under Communist Party discipline 6 months
ago?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. I am under nobody's discipline but my own.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been under Communist Party discipline f
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party i
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Glover. I must decline on the basis of the gi-ounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. What distinction do you make between being a member
of the Communist Party and being under Communist Party discipline ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6995
Mr. Glover. I am not a lawyer, I don't make any distinction.
Mr. Akens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter-
rogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. ScHEKEK. I have no further questions.
Mr. DoTLE. I wish to call the witness' and counsel's attention to this
fact: Mr. Scherer did that which he often does, and we do often —
make sure that the witness, if he does not plead the fifth amendment
as part of his answers, understands he is not doing so and that it was
the reason for jSIr. Scherer asking you repeatedly, whether or not you
included the fifth amendment as part of j'our answer. Now, as I
understand the record, in answer to no question have you included the
fifth amendment. You understand that, do you. Witness?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glo\ter. Yes.
Mr. DoTLE. That was your intention, to never raise that as a reason
for not answering ? Is that correct ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Glover. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. I beg pardon ?
Mr. Glover. That is correct.
JMr. Doyle. All right.
The witness is excused. And so is counsel. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Robert Cummings, please come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Cummings, please raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Cummings. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you occupy the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF ROBEET CUMMINGS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, could I ask that no pictures be
taken.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. Of course it will be so ordered.
Mr. Cummings. Pardon me, would you state the question again?
Mr. Arens. Yes, would you please identify yourself by name, resi-
dence and occupation ?
^Ir. Cummings. My name is Robert Cummings.
Mr. Arens. Would you keep your voice up. We are having some
noise outside, which is distracting me.
Mr. Cummings. ]My name is Robert Cummings. I live in Seattle
and as to the third part of your question, I will refuse to answer that
on the grounds that the question and this particular session of the
committee are exceeding their scope and jurisdiction and therefore are
in violation of tlie fii-st amendment of the Constitution.
And under protection of the first amendment, I refuse to answer.
And under the fnrther protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you feel that to tell us the nature of your occupa-
tion might lead to a criminal prosecution of you ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
6996 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am informed that legally there is a possibility
of any answer to that question being used against me.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Either the answer or in waiving the right as to
future questions.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Where?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Seattle.
Mr. Arens. What type of work?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I refuse to answer on the same grounds as pre-
viously.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is instructed and ordered to answer that,
question.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Same answer, same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Again we understand, witness, that you are not in-
voking the fifth amendment as a basis for your refusal to answer t.h»
question. Is that correct?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am afraid you misunderstand.
Mr. Scherer. Are you invoking it on this question?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I did invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Witness, Mrs. Barbara Hartle this morning
took an oath to tell the truth. If she didn't tell the truth, she could
be prosecuted for perjury. And she said while she was a member
of the Communist Party she knew you as a Communist. Was she
lying or was she telling the truth ?
While you are under oath you tell us about it.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CuMMiNGS. It is my understanding that from the tenor of your
question there seems to be some sort of a challenge. I would like to
include in my answer the observation that
Mr. Arens. Just stand up and say "No, she lied about me, I am
not a Communist. I am not a member of a conspiratorial apparatus.
I am a patriotic American." Do that while you are under oath and
then we will get on. Was she lying or was she telling the truth?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CuMMiNGS. What are you asking?
Mr. Arens. Asking you whetlier or not Barbara Hartle lied or if
she told the truth when she took an oath before the committee this
morning and said she knew you as a Communist. You, Robert Cum-
minfijs.
Air. CuMMiNGS. In view of the fact that even though the witness you
are speaking of may have been under oath, her testimony was not
subject to cross-examination and, as such, has no legal status further
than hearsay testimony.
Mr. Scherer. What ?
Mr. CuMMTNGS. Other than that^
Mr. Scherer. That is an entirely
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Other than that — were I to answer, and were there
reason for this witness or other witnesses to my observation to perjure
COMxMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6997
themselves, there seems to never be anvthino- done ahnnf if ^i
never prosecuted ^^"^^^t, cione aoout it. They are
^^n^sSTl^^^';^i:::i^tlS^^^I point m a.
to answer the question on the Jl-oundspre^iSy stated"*"'^' ' '''''''
ground^anS^s' ""'"""^ *" '^"'"■"- ^'^'^ "^^''^ -"^ ^''■^t^d the
Mr. Arens. These exhibits we are soino- to di^^nlnv f^
oTn^^^r t-' ^£:^^:^jik pi ra: f -
i^IisfeTa^trofth^spror^"™- '" "''"^'^ ^°''--' ^ummings agai'^
acMy dtriW. '°'"""™'^ "'" '«" "^ "'^^"-^ -■ ™' yo" were
(See exhibit Nos 617 and 618, appendix, pp. 8205-8209 )
(The witness confers with his counsel ) '
Mr. Arens. Just tell us are those bona fide documents.
fi.il 'i' '-'"'^'"/«Sl I Jinre no means of Imowing whether thev are bom,
fide document^ I am not too sure exactly what thev are lier^^
name there. What was the question now « « ™y aie. 1 see my
thaf or^ni^atio^n ? ™''" •'"'"™'*'^ '^'''''^' ^''^ ^"^ ^'^^'^^^^^ with
Mr. CujoiiNGS. On this one it doesn't say anythino- about the nr
bl^ked'^rt"r'didn'?t' ee • t^- ^^^ ^'"^ ^''^ ^P™-'' ™^ ^^1^"^
?F' ^'^^^^^^ ^ '^1^ sure now that you
co|^i?t™cspStoT:fX:y,fLr-'-^ »* "^^ ^-^•^-^^
wh'^r-eyl.ranretper-^'^''""' ^■°" '""'^ ■=" ">« ""'^ <— ^'
„, =fi'ii ,t . y°" ''•'■'>' "»"='»• I wonder if you would hein us
"Men J"? .""■ ""^"T'^'': It is an article from tL Daily WorLr
indi"na«on'' ""'' """ '''"^^'■^ throughout the Natin ™i^e
ce^linK.1^ S\Sm, '^Is^ ImX^^'ilf 'pt^W "■-
F^t^nt'clS wi:;S^'„SiT"'^ °* "^^ ^^° International
85333— 57— pt. 1-
6998 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(See exhibit No. 632, appendix, p. 8226.)
He was quoted here as sayinj^ :
This is turning American jurisprudence into American judasprudence.
Kindly look at that document that is beins displayed to you now,
and see if you recall joininoj that enterprise and if you are accurately
quoted.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am not sure that that is an exact quote. But I
think it is quite likely that it is somethino; like that, yes.
Mr. Arens. Thanlc you, sir.
Who solicited you to be a sponsor of the Northwest Committee for
Protection of the Foreign Born ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Oh, that was so lon^ ago I don't remember who
solicited me.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the name of the officers ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Well, I might possibly read the list that you just
gave me. Other than that
Mr. Arens. Do you have an independent recollection ? It is useless
to sit and read a list that would be supplied to you.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. What date was this you are talking about?
Mr. Arens. Do you know Marion Kinney?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. She is listed here as Chairman of the Northwest Com-
mittee for Protection of the Foreign Born.
Do you know her ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I know Marion Kinney, yes.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How long have you known her ?
Mr. CuMMiNGs. A number of years. I couldn't say just exactly.
Mr. Arens. "WTiat has been the nature of your acquaintanceship with
her ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Through the American Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. As a worker or an officer in the American Commit-
tee for the Protection of Foreign Born, or the Washington Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Did you kriow her as an officer of tlie Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, too?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her in any other capacity ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. No, I never did; not to my recollection.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in the Communist Party with her?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am going to decline to answer that question on
the grounds that I previously stated in my previous declination.
Mr. iVRENS. Now I have liere a document T want to display to you.
It is the Communist Daily Worker of 1951 : "438 at Washington State
peace parley." It is about a confeience held under the auspices of
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6999
the Wasliingtoii Peace Crusade. In the course of this article the fol-
lowing appears :
More tlian SO Avorkers t^ok part in a labor anrl peace panel chaired hv
Secretary Robert Cummings of Seattle Fishermen's Local 3-3 ^
Do you recall tliat confei-ence and do you recall your chairing that
panel under the auspices of the Washington Peace Crusade?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 640,'^ see appendix, pp. 8232-8233 )
(Ihe witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
^^Mr. Arens. That was m 1951. That is while the Korean war was
(The witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
Mr. Arens. Do you recall that, please, Mr. Cummings?
Mr. CuxMMiNGS. In order to avoid waiver of any rights on future
g'uncir' '"' ^'"'"^ '" '"^"'^ '" "^^'™^ '^''' ^^^^^^^«- on tL same
Mr. Arfns. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness. conciuaes
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer, any questions «
Mr. Coherer. N"© questions.
Mr \vv'^^^'m!'T "'' "^'^^'^T^- Jo^^ ^^i-e excused, Witness.
Ml. Are>,s. Mr. Xorman Haaland, H-a-a-1-a-n-d
(iSo response.)
Mr. Arens. Norman Haaland. Is he here, please ?
Mr Haaland. I am here, but I am without counsel and I would
Mr. Ma aland. That is right.
Mr. DoTLE. You will be here with counsel.
'^^^^^ZZ^^^^ '- *™">' ^'^ -=* truth,
Mr. I ODD. Yes, I do.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOE TODD, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL
FEANK H. POZZI and BEKKELEY LENT
Mr. Arens. Ishethathard of liPirino-? t-pt •
clo.. to t,.i. microphone w^ifdl'teTll to he" ™? '"^ ™"^ "^^ "'^'
Ml. Are>,s. Then I will be as brief as possible.
7000 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr Doyle. Counsel, may the record show that if the witness' coun-
sel, either of them or both of them, have any indication from the wit-
ness that he does not understand the question, will you pleuse make
sure that the question is repeated until he does understand '.
Mr. Pozzi. Thank you. . .
Mr Arens. Now, Counsel, may I have your attention a minute, i
will lead the witness on the preliminaries to avoid unnecessary con-
versation.
You are Victor Todd?
Mr. Todd. Yes, sir. . ,
Mr Arens. And you are appearing today m response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Todd. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel i
Mr. Todd. Yes, I am. .... ^
Mr Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourselves.
Mr. PozzL F.H. Pozzi and B.Lent, Portland, Oreg.
Mr Arens. Now our investigations, Mr. Todd, disclose that you
are identified with the Committee for Protection of Oregon s For-
eign Born. Is that correct?
'(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Pozzi. Can you hear him? ^- v j v.«r>
Mr Todd I respectfully decline to answer that question based upon
the rights, privileges, and immunities accorded to me by the 1st, 4tli,
5th, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Constitution of the United
States
" Mr ' -^RENs Our investigation further discloses that you were a
leader of the Communist Party of Oregon, and that m the course ot
your leadership of
Mr. ScHERER. He can't see your lips. i -, 4.
Mr Arens. Our investigation discloses that you were a leader ot
the Communist Party of Oregon. Is that correct ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr Todd. Again I respectfully decline to answer that question
based upon the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Constitution of ih^
^^Uv ^n^^f' Just for the purpose of further identification, lias your
impediment in hearing existed over a number of years, or is it a recent
affliction ? .
Mr. Pozzi. Did you hear him i
( The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Todd. Perhaps I could say 10 or more years. At least 10 years.
Mr. Arens. Are you uoay a Communist ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr Todd Ao-ain I respectively decline to answer that question
based upon the^'rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Constitution ot the
Mr. Arens.* Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7001
Mr. Do^-LE. Any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. ScHEKEK. Xo questions.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Witness. No questions. You are excused.
Thank you, CoimseL
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Valerie Lee Taylor.
]\[r. Doyle. Mrs. Taylor, do you solemnly swear that you will tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God '.
Mrs. Taylor. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you take the witness chair ?
TESTIMONY OF MRS. VALEEIE (LEE) TAYLOR, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, FRANK H. FOZZI AND BERKELEY LENT
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself, by name, residence, and
occupation.
]Mrs. Taylor. JMay I request no pictures, please.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. I am sure the press will cooperate as they
have alwaj's up here.
Mrs. Taylor. ]My name is Valerie Taylor and I live at North Bend,
Oreg. And I am a housewife.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Taylor, are you a Communist?
Mrs. TAYLor.. ]\[r. Chairman, I respectively decline to answer that
question based upon the rights, privileges and immunities afforded to
me by the 1st, 4th, 51h, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Constitution
of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Taylor, Mrs. Hartle, Barbara Hartle, this morn-
ing— in her previous testimony. I beg your pardon. It was not in
this morning's testimony— in her previous testimony before the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities, identified you as a Comnmnist.
Was she Ijang or was she telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Taylor. I would like to decline that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you two exhibits of the
Connnittee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born, in which you
are identified as a sponsor of that organization.
These exhibits are copies of letterheads and other documents issued
by that committee calling for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran hiw.
calling for people to act before it is too late on certain cases of depor-
tation of Communists. Kindly look at those documents and tell this
committee while you are under oath whether or not you are identified
in the capacity specified in those documents, with that organization.
(See exhibit Nos. 635 and 636, appendix, pp. 8229, 8230.)
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer the question on the previous
gromids stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we display to you a copy of the Communist Daily
People's World, of Friday, April 17, 19.53, with reference to the sup-
poit of a movement to get executive clemency for the Rosenbergs.
According to this article, this drive is coupled Avith the drive to repeal
the McCarran-Walter Act, and other activities in which Mrs. Valerie
Taylor is president.
7002 cOjvimunist political subversion
Kindly look at this article and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether you are accurately described in that enterprise.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 641," see appendix, pp. 8233, 8234.)
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines docmnent.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the grounds as previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document we would like to
display to you, an original document from the Washington Evening
Star, in which a number of people are protesting to the then Attorney
General, J. Howard McGrath, in 1951, about the jailing of certain
people, including Abner Green, executive secretary of the Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. This document bears the signature
of a number of people, including that Mrs. Valerie Taylor, president,
ILWIJ, Federated Auxiliaries of Oregon.
Kindly look at that document and tell the committee whether or
not you participated in that enterprise and whether or not you are
accurately described.
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you still another document, the
Daily Worker of November 1953, in which an article appears entitled
"134 notables hit move to ban Marxist school." It is with reference
to the activities of the Government through the Subversive Activities
Control Board under the Internal Security Act to investigate the
Jefferson School of Social Science, a Communist controlled enterprise
in New York City.
This article asserts that a number of people protested this, including
Valerie Taylor. Mrs. Valerie Taylor. Kindly look at that document
and tell this committee whether or not you are appropriately and ac-
curately described there.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 642," see appendix, pp. 8234, 823.5.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you still another document from
the Communist Daily Worker of January 1953: "150 women sign
a plea for amnesty for the 11." Those are the 11 Communist traitors
in New York City. It includes, according to this article in the Daily
Worker, Valerie Lee Taylor. Kindly look at that docum.ent as it is
displayed to you and tell this committee while you are under oath
whether you are one of those persons who interceded on behalf of the
11 Communist traitors in New York Citv.
(See exhibit No. 639, appendix, p. 8232.)
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Tayt.or. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Homer L. Owen ?
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Homer L. Owen back in 1954 took an oath before this
committee and testified that while he was a mem.ber of the Communist
cons])iracv he knew yo^^ ^s a Communist. Was he Iving or was he
telling the truth?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7003
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the grounds as previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Are vou this moment a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoYT.E. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please
Mr. Doyle. May I just take a minute, Mrs. Taylor. I would like to
call attention in the record to the fact that on December 4th I wired
the Department of Justice in Washington and asked them to tell me
how many cases had been prosecuted, finally, under the Smith Act,
since 1953. And I just want to read a portion of this answer which
I received by wire.
Hon. Clyde Doyle,
Subcommittee, House JJn-American Activities Committee:
Following statistics on Internal Security prosecutions covering period 1953
to date, furnished pursuant to your telegraphic request :
I want the record to show clearly, Mr. Reporter, the answer.
Advocating overthrow of United States Government in violation of Smith Act,
72 convictions, 10 acquittals, 10 cases pending involving 30 defendants. Seditious
conspiracy 27 convictions, one acquittal.
That is the element of concern that we have as a committee to inform
Congress about, the extent to which the Communists in this area, or
the Communist Party, are undertaking to defeat the very internal
security legislation that makes it possible to succeed in convicting these
persons who do advocate overthrow of the United States Government
in violation of the Internal Security Regulations.
Mrs. Taylor, I don't know whether you are a mother of any children
or not. I am not going to ask you. It is not pertinent to this examina-
tion, but may I just observe as a parent I do hope that there are no
children in your home, or any children under your control or influence
that are being raised to be future Communist conspirators and sub-
versive persons in our country.
I just hope that that is not occurring. I am not inferring anything.
I am just talking plainly to you as an American Congressman. As a
leader in your community.
The witness is excused and thank you, Counsel.
Mr. Pozzi. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Vincent Howard, kindly come forward.
Mr. Scherer. Before we call the next witness, Mr. Chairman, has
Victor Todd left the room ?
Mr. Lent. He is still here.
Mr. Scherer. I would like to ask him some questions.
Mr. Pozzi. Pardon me.
Mr. Scherer. That is all right. Go ahead with this next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Vincent Howard.
Mr. Howard. I am here without counsel. I will have counsel in the
morning; at 9 o'clock for sure.
7004 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Then you will return without fail, Mr.
Howard, at 9 o'clock with counsel ?
Mr. Howard. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. You are excused until 9 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
Mr. Arens. Clayton VanLydegraf.
Mr. VanLydegraf. Mr. Chairman, I do not see my counsel at
present.
Mr. Arens. Do you know his name ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. Here he is. He is here.
Mr. Arens. Please remain standing while the chairman administers
an oath to you.
Mr, Doyle. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole trutth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CLAYTON VanLYDEGEAF, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, JOHN M. RUPP
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. VanLydegraf. My name is Clayton VanLydegraf. I live in
Bellingham, Wash.
Mr. Arens. It is difficult to hear you. Would you say that again,
please, sir?
Mr. VanLydegraf. My name is Clayton VanLydegraf. I live in
Bellingham, Wash.
Mr. Arens. And we didn't get your occupation.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I did not give my occupation.
Mr. Arens. Give it, please.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to give my occupation on the grounds
of my constitutional rights under the 1st amendment, 4th and 5th
amendments, the 9th and 10th amendments, and also my rights under
the enabling act in the constitution of the State of Washington.
Mr. Arens. Are you engaged in some criminal activity in your occu-
pation ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present occu-
pation ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Wliere are you engaged in your present occupation ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. In what State are you engaged in your present occupa-
tion?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question as to which State he is
engaged in his occupation.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Of course. I direct you, Witness, to answer that
question. It is a reasonable question. We believe it a pertinent and
appropriate question to ask you.
Mr. VanLydegraf. On advice of counsel, I will answer this ques-
tion : in the State of Washington.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7005
Mr. Arens. Now, in what city are you engaged in your occupation?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer the question.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. How long have 3'ou been engaged in your present occu-
pation ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer how long he was engaged in his present
occupation.
Mr. Doyle. I order and direct you to answer that last question.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation immediately preceding your
present occupation?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. And what was your occupation immediately preceding
that occupation?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in unj occupation during your
adult life, vocation, livelihood, that you can tell us about without giv-
ing information that could be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Witness, I order and direct you to answer that
question.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Barbara Hartle ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. This lady, Barbara Hartle, this morning took an oath
and said she knew you as a Communist. In fact, she said she knew
you as a person who was in the Communist underground conspiratorial
apparatus. Was she lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you a document entitled:
"Coalition for Freedom and Democracy. A Report of the Washing-
ton State Committee of the Communist Party, November 1955."
(See exhibit No. 614, appendix, pp. 8186-8203.)
AVere you part of this coalition for freedom and democracy ?
Mr. VanLyt)egr.\f. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. You certainly wouldn't be ashamed of being in a coali-
tion for freedom and democracy, would you ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to
Mr. Arens. Unless it was a false freedom and false democracy under
the auspices of a conspiratorial apparatus?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Look at this document. Coalition for Freedom and
Democracy, a Report of the Washington State Committee of the
7006 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Communist Party for November 1955, in "svhich I see set forth here
the program of tlie Communist Party of this State, to subvert and un-
dermine the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, the Immigration
and Nationality Act, the Communist Control Act, and other anti-
Communist legislation. Look at that document and first of all tell us
whether or not you have ever seen that document before.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same gix)unds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that you were head of the
Communist Party here when that document was prepared and circu-
lated in secret among the comrades.
Deny it while you are under oath, would you, please, if it isn't true ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Kindlv tell this committee, while you are under oath,
sir, the relationship between the Oregon State Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born and the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr, Arens. Kindly tell this committee the relationship between
the Communist conspiratorial apparatus, and the Washington State
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. We want to display to you certain documents.
In this, the Communist Daily Worker of May 26, 1938, there is an
article : "Oregon Delegates Hail Victory Over Martin." This was be-
fore the passage of the Smith Act.
There are photographs here of three people.' "Three from the
Coast." Delegates to the national Communist convention. Curiously
enough, there is a photograph that looks remarkably like your own.
Indeed, underneath this photograph appears the name Clayton
VanLydegraf.
The article proceeds as follows :
Back on the Oregon Trail from the woods and the ships and tlie ranches of
the Pacific Northwest seven Communist Party delegates rolled in for the 10th
national convention yesterday.
They tell about a number of people who have come in from the trails
out here to this Communist Party convention, including one Clayton
VanLydegraf.
Look at that article and photograph and tell this committee if
you are accurately an-d truthfulh' described there as one of the com-
rades in this conspiratorial apparatus.
(The witness examines document.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 643," see appendix, pp. 8236,
8237.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Was that in 1938, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. That is a long time to be in a conspiracj^
Mr. Arens. We have still another publication in which a certain
man informs on himself. An application filed with the secretary of
state of Wasliington to get the Communist Party candidates on the
ballot here, in July 9, 1946.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 644," see appendix, pp. 8238-8242.)
It bears the signature of a number of people. Curiously enough we
see the name Clayton Van Lydegraf, 1316 West Kenyon Street,
Seattle, Wash. And his occupation in 1946 was Communist Party
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 70Q7
official, which I am sure as you know, in Communist Partv lin^^o
means a Communist Party functionary. " ® '
Kindly look at that document and see if that refreshes your recol-
lection Avith reference to your vocation in 1946.
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds, and
wifn particular reference to article 4 of the Enabling Act Jstab-
lisiiing--creating--the provisions for the State of Washington into
the Union, adopted bv Congress in 1889.
coimseUoclay?^'''^ ^ apologize to counsel. You are represented by
Mr. VanLydeoraf. I am.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, I am sorry I didn't recognize you sooner.
Uould you kindly identify yourself & ^
dpn?;?^''^^^?^''"^^^^' ¥'^- ^•'■'^'-'s- Again, I am John Eupp, presi-
dent of he Seattle Bar Association, appearing bv appointment as I
think 1 stated at the outset of the hearing.
• ¥^\Scherer. Again I think we should say the committee appre-
ciates Mr. Rupp and the other members of the Seattle bar for servino-
m this capacity and doing it so well and so ably ^
Mr. Doyle. We certainlv do.
^ir Arexs. Where were you born, Mr. YanLydegraf «
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. YanLydegraf. I was born in Salem, Oreg.
Air Arens. And a word about your education.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. YaxLydegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds. ^cmix.
Mr. Arens I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to ansAver that question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I direct you, Witness, to answer that question.
How could you possibly be prosecuted for telling us what your school-
ing has been « "^
wl^'' ^Vf^'^^'i^^f ""l^ """^ '^^^"'^ '^^^'^* yo"r professorial activities
VV e want to ask about your own training.
(The witness confers with his counsel.T
. Mr. YanLydegraf Upon advice of counsel, I attended grade school
m^^ isconsm and m Oregon, m Albany and in Eugene
Mr. Arens. And did you attend high school ?
Mr. YanLydegraf. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And where M-as that ?
Mr. YanLydegraf. In Eugene, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. And did you graduate from high school?
Mr. YanLydegraf. I did.
Mr. Arens. And when was that?
Mr. YanLydegraf. I think the year was 1932.
Mr. Arens. And did you pursue your education further ?
groimdla^bS^rr'"^- ^ ^'"^"'"^ ^"^ '''^''''' '^^' ^""'^^"^ ^^ *^ '^''''
Mr. Arens. Did you attend college ?
Mr. YanLydegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever traveled outside the United States ?
7008 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Arexs. "^^Tiat was your first job after you completed your
formal education ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
ground as before.
Mr. Arens. I want you to help us on this. We only have high school
education thus far recorded. It is our information that you have been
engaged in a professorial work yourself as a teacher and instructor.
Generally that type of work is reserved for those who have had higher
education. Can you tell us about some of your professorial activities?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as be-
fore.
Mr. Arens. You were a teacher at a Communist leaders' school,
were you not, here in Seattle ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as be-
fore.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Eugene Dennett ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as be-
fore.
Mr. Arens. Eugene Dennett said he knew you as a functionary in
Seattle. That means a full-time member of the conspiracy in Seattle,
of the Communist Party. Was Dennett lying or was he telling the
truth ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as be-
fore.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Elizabeth Boggs Cohen, who, herself was a former
functionary of the Communist Party in Seattle, identified you as a
member of the conspiratorial apparatus. Was she lying or was she
telling the truth ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harold W. Sunoo ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Sunoo told this committee while he was under
oath about your teaching Communist strategy and Communist tactics
of the underground apparatus here in Washington. Was Sunoo
telling the truth ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever transmitted to a person, not authorized
to receive the same, security or restricted information ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. In other words, have you ever engaged in espionage ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught sabotage ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been trained in the Lenin School in
Moscow ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Aricns. Now, Mr. Karley Larsen, former member of the Com-
munist conspiratorial apparatus who broke away, identified you with
reference to some of your conspiratorial activities before the commit-
tee while he, Mr. Larsen, was under oath.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7009
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Are you this minute a member of the Communist con-
spiracy ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. What has been your connection with the Huks in the
Philippines 'i
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. It has been the information of this committee you were
one of the conspirators over there that led the Huks in the bloody up-
rising in which innocent blood was flowing like water. Can you deny
it while you are under oath ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. I deny it on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. You say you deny it ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you deny that you have been connected with the Huk
uprising in the Philippines?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you been taught the art of garroting?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you while you are
under oath to affirm or deny the fact that you are an expert in the
Communist underground conspiratorial apparatus and in garroting?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Abens. Have you ever taken an oath of allegiance to support
and defend the flag of the United States of America ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever
Mr. DoYT.E. Counsel, I am going to instruct this witness to answer
that question. I don't see how answering whether or not he took an
oath to support the Stars and Stripes can tend to incriminate him.
Mr. ScHERER. I don't see how it could.
Mr. D0Y1.E. I instruct you to answer that question. What are you
ashamed of? How in God's name could you possibly be incriminated
if you did take the oath ?
Mr. ScHERER. Because he obviously violated it.
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. VanLydegraf. Upon advice of counsel, having suggested that
I answer this question, and I will answer it "Yes."
Mr. Arens. And under what occasion did you take an oath to sup-
port and defend the flag of the United States ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. VanLyndegraf. Counsel suggests that I ask you to clarify that
question as to the content of the oath that you have in mind.
Mr. Arens. When did you ever talve a pledge to support the flag
of the United States or Constitution of the United States 5
Mr. VanLydegraf. That is one question or two.
Mr. Arens. Yes. If you have taken 2 oaths, tell us about 2 of
them. If you have taken 3, tell us about 3 of them.
Mr. VanLydegraf, I answered the question
Mr. Arens. You said Yes, you had.
7010 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Ml'. VanLydegraf. I answered the question, having in mind af-
firming the fact that I, upon at least one occasion took an oath to up-
hold tlie Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Where and wlien?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. I took such oath as a part of my service in the
United States Army.
Mr. Arens. Where and when ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I took the oath in Seattle, Wash.
Mr, Arens. When ?
Mr, VanLydegraf. In 1942.
Mr. Arens. And were you inducted in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I was.
Mr. Arens. And in what branch did you serve ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. In the Air Force.
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served in various locations.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Witness, were you a member of the Communist con-
spiracy when you were inducted into the Army and took that oath ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. In what areas of the world did you serve, when you
were inducted in the Air Force ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same ground.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully' suggest that the
witness be ordered and directed to answer that question. He knows
he has to answer that question. If not he ought to be told.
Mr. Doyle. How in the world your service under the flag of the
United States could possibly incriminate you, I don't see. I instruct
you and order you to answer that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. L^pon advice of counsel I will answer the ques-
tion. I served in Seattle, Wash. I served in San Antonio, Tex. I
served in Waco, Tex. I served in Arkansas. I served in Michigan.
^Miile stationed in Michigan I served in all but — I served in the
State of New York, I served in the State of Ohio. I served in the
State of Minnesota. I served in the State of Wisconsin. I served in
the State of Florida. I served in the State of North Carolina. I
served in the State of South Carolina. I served in Washington,
D. C. I served in Delaware. I served in California. I served in
Arizona. I served in New Mexico. I served in Montana. I served
in Kansas. I served in Missouri. I served in Kentucky. I served in
Tennessee. I served in Alabama. I served in Mississippi. I served
in Louisiana. I served in other States as well.
There may have been 3 or 4 in which I did not serve during this
period.
Mr. Arens. And in what capacity ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served as a private. I served as an aviation
cadet and I served as a law attendant.
Mr. Arens. And in what branch of the Air Force did you serve?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served in the Air Transport Command.
Mr. Arens. And did you serve any place overseas ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7011
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I did.
Mr. Arens. And where did you serve overseas ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served in Morocco. I served in Egypt. I
served in India. I served in China. And I served over Burma.
Mr. Arexs. Are those the only places you served?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I also served in Labrador, in Greenland, in Ice-
land, and in Scotland.
Mr. Arexs. Is there any other place else 3'ou served ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. That is all that I remember.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in the Philippines ?
Mr. VANLYDEorvAF. As I said, that is all that I remember.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in the Philippines ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Arexs. During- the course of your service in the United States
Army, were you under discipline of a conspiratorial apparatus con-
trolled by a foreign government ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. During your service in the United States Army, did
you pass security or confidential information to any person not
authorized by law to receive tlie same ?
]\[r. VanL^-degraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Arens. I instruct this witness to answer. In view
of the fact that he took the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the
United States, according to his own testimony on at least two occasions,
I tliink it is a very pertinent question.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Did you receive an honorable discharge ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. Of course. I direct the witness to answer that question.
]Mr. VxVnLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same gi'ounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your discharge ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. Was your separation from the service voluntary or
involuntary ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on tlie same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. When did you return to the United States from your
last sojourn abroad with the Armed Forces of this Nation, whose flag
you are sworn to protect ?
Mr. \^anLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest Mr. Chairman, that witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
( Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. Upon advice of counsel, I will answer that I
returned in the spring of 1945.
7012 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. And from whence did you return to the United States ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. From India.
Mr. Arens. And have you left continental United States since then ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline on the same grounds as before.
Mr. Arens. What is garroting? See if you can just help this
committee trying to protect this same flag you swore to uphold. What
is garroting?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. You know what garroting is, don't you ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever parroted anybody ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. Have you received any military training in the use of
firearms or in the use of deadly weapons other than the military
training which you received by the Government of the United States ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that you have so received
such training by the underground conspiratorial apparatus of the
Communist Party. Deny it while you are under oath if it isn't true.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. How many people have you killed in the course of
your career in the Philippines ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr, Arens. I put to you as a fact, sir, that you were trained in the
miderground school to garrot for the International Communist con-
spiracy. Now" deny that while you are under oath.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. Now, tell us in view of your background which we have
been covering, about some of your activities for the uplift of this
community. Let us start with the Oregon Committee for Protection
of Foreign Bom. Tell us some of your activities in that regard
to protect the foreign born.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
'My. Arens. You certainly are not ashamed as one who has sworn
to defend this great Kepublic to state what you have done to protect
the helpless foreign born, would you ? Unless they happened to like-
wise be Communist conspirators?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. Now tell us what you have done in this community and
elsewhere to protect this Nation, this flag you are sworn to uphold, by
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7013
advocating proposed amendments to the Smith Act. Can vou tell
us about that? ^
before. ^''''^™'^'^'^* ^ '^^''^"'" ^° '"''"'"'^'^ ""'^ ^^'^ '^"'^ grounds as
yours atfoTminri'" ''' "^'' ^'^ ^^"^' ^""' '^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^
Mr. ScHERER. Not of his.
Mv' V^?T ■ ^^''^^' '■''?'^'^ ^^ *^'^ Internal Security Act of this Nation,
before. '''''^''" ^^'^ ''"''''"'^ "^'^ *^'^ '^^^ ^^'^^^^^^ ^^
vo^I^'q^?"'"® ■• Have you changed your position with reference to Com-
rade Stahii since Khrushchev told the world he wasn't quite the man
everyone thought he was? Have you changed your pos tion S
reference to Comrade Stalin ? » j i^
befor^.^'^'"'^™'''^''- ^ '^'''^"'^ ^"^ '''''''^^^ ^^ *^^^ '^'^^ g^'o^nds as
Mr. Arens. Who was riglit, Khrushchev or Stalin '^
o/iT ^'^^^'^™GRAF I see no legislative purpose in such a question
and I continue to decline on the same grouncls as before. ^^e^^^on,
for'som'etnX'f"^^^^^ ''''' ' ^^'"' '' "''^^' ™^ ^^ ^^"^^ ^^^^
Mr. Arens. Certainly.
Mr. VanLtdegraf. And I am getting a little dry.
Mr. Doyle Under Public Law 601, Witness, a legislative purpose
assigned to this committee is to investigate the extent to which^the
Communist conspiracy comes from a foreign country and Tnmtrates
our constitutional Government, or tries to. ^ mmtiates
All'. Arens. What was the last question, Mr. Reporter «
(1 iiea-ecord was read by the reporter as requested)
Mr. Arens What is your position with reference to the atrocities
being committed against the innocent people of Hungary bv the
leaders of this conspiratorial apparatus « "^^b'li-y oy tne
prevLiIlTgw'"" ' '"^'" ^^ '^""^"^ ^^ ^^- --- g--d^ -
of't^Hungiia^sT """" '""'"' '""^ ^'""^^''^^ ^^^ ^^^ P-^^^^-
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
thi^count'J^v'hv "J ''" f T?^"'-^"" ^^^^^ ^«^^« t« pS>tect the flag of
tms coimtiy by your activities m connection with cono-ressional in
Ip cf fo si'^rn'"'- r^""^- ^'^^^ '''''^ ^^"- enterprfses on in t
^Mi. v/x'f'^ """? Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Ml. VA^LYDEGR.lF. I Will refrain from commenting on the present
occasion on the same grounds as before. "^ present
have unrwlt.Pfl ^'^f^^V''^'^'^^' T ^^^*^ '^^^ *^ ^^^^^is^ the rights you
oath Tell « if f ^"^ ^'T' 'P'r^^- ^^^'^ ^« ^'^ ^^^^ ^^^^i^e yo^^ are under
Seo^ntn^^S^riSIJifir ^^^^^^ ^^'^^^^^^ '^ ^^^ '^^^ ^^-^-
Mv' Yt^'-^^'^u '^'^- ^ ^f ^^^^e «n the same grounds,
hold^' ''''' ^""'^ ^'^'^^'^^ ^^'' ^^S that you were sworn to up-
Mr Itp^rfT''' \ff''^ ^^ ^"^^^'^^* o" the same grounds.
clude"tW^ff^nf ^'^'' ^""^/:;^^''^ ^"- Chairman, that will con-
cmae the stall interrogation of this witness.
85333— 57— pt. 1 56
7014 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, anj' questions ?
Mr. Scherer. It is unbelievable.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. The witness is excused, Mr.
Arens.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. And thank you, Counsel. I want the record to show
Mr. VanLydegraf. Can I sign a voucher and so on ?
Mr. Doyle. Beg your pardon ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. Do I sign a voucher ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Yes, and Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if,
as and when this witness signs a voucher that that part of the voucher
bearing his signature be incorporated in the body of this record for
obvious reasons.
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 645a," see appendix, p. 8243.)
Mr. Doyle. May I have the record show this, please :
Under date of April 2, 1956, I received a letter from Mr. J. Edgar
Hoover, United States Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation, Washington, D. C.
Hon. Clyde Doyle,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D. C.
My Dear Congressman —
I read only part of it because it is quite a long one.
Tlie American people owe a great debt of gratitude to the work over the years
of congressional investigating committees. These committees, day after day,
secure information vitally needed in the consideration of new legislation. They
are indeed indispensable parts of the American legislative process.
Congressional investigating committees, moreover, time after time have brought
to the attention of the Nation conditions of fraud, dishonesty and subversion.
This function of awakening public opinion is of the greatest importance in our
democratic life — a service not within the province of regularly constituted in-
vestigative agencies. Congressional investigating committees, by the very nature
of the broad powers vested in them, are enabled to search out the facts and
make them available to the citizeni-y.
End of quote.
(Pursuant to subsequent order of the chairman of the subcommittee,
a news clipping from the Seattle Times dealing with VanLyde-
graf's endorsement of his veteran's bonus check to the Communist
Party and a news clipping from the Los Angeles Times (see pp. 7019
and 7050 of testimony) are included in the appendix.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 645b and 646," see appendix,
pp. 8244-8247.)
Mr. Doyle. I am pleased to state for the benefit of the witnesses
and counsel that the committee will not meet tomorrow morning until
10 a. m. instead of 9.
So the witnesses and counsel need not be here until 10 a. m. tomor-
row instead of 9. And there will be no session tonight.
The people under subpena here are directed to report back at 10
a. m. tomorrow instead of 9.
Mr. Lent. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, Mr. Scherer asked
after Witness Todd had been excused if he would wait a few minutes
for a question or two.
Mr. Scherer. I have changed my mind.
to
CO^^lMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7015
Mr. D0TI.E. Thanks very much, Counsel.
Mr. Lent, Thank you very much,
(Whereupon, at o : 20 p, m. Thursday, the committee Avas recessed,
reconvene at 10 a. m, Friday, December 14, 1956.)
Statement of the President oe the Seattle Bab Association to the Com-
mittee ON Un-Amekican Activities of the House of Representatives of the
United States, December 13, 1956
My name is John N. Rupp, and I appear here at this time in my capacity as
president of the Seattle Bar Association.
There will be a number of Seattle attorneys appearing at this hearing in the
capacity of counsel for certain of the witnesses, and I want the record to be
clear as to the circumstances under which they will appear. Briefly put, they will
be here because, as president of the Seattle Bar Association, I appointed them to
represent the persons for whom they will act as counsel. I appointed them be-
cause I was informed that these several witnesses were without counsel and had
no funds with which to employ counsel, and I was asked to appoint counsel for
them. These attorneys will, of course, serve without pay and as a public duty,
in conformity with the oath which each of them took when he became a member
of the bar.
Since I would not ask any of my colleagues to undertake a task without
undertaking a similar one myself, I shall appear later at this hearing repre-
senting at least one of the persons subpenaed. The others whom I have appointed
are : Charles Horowitz, the first vice president of the Seattle Bar Association ;
Chester C. Adair and David O. Hamlin, two of the trustees of the Association ;
David J. Williams, chairman of the association's civil rights committee ; and
Arthur Barnett, a member of that committee. If additional counsel are ap-
pointed, that fact will be made known to the committee.
In connection with this representation, and with the api>earances of any
lawyers before the committee, I should like to have the record contain a state-
ment made over 2 years ago by the trustees of the association. It is published in
30 Washington Law Review 327-328, and it reads as follows :
'•representation of unpopular persons or causes
"Be it resolved by the Board of Trustees of the Seattle Bar Association, on
this 11th daii of June. 1954, That certain of the fundamental principles underly-
ing the representation by lawyers of unpopular persons and causes should be
set forth at this time for the information and assistance of the public and the
bar and that, therefore, the follov.ing statement should be issued and made
public :
"Throughout the course of history lawyers have been freqpently called upon
to repre.'^ent and defend persons and causes known to be unpopular. This has
been particularly true in criminal matters, but it has been and is also true
in other fields, including investigations and hearings conducted by the legislative
department of government.
"The right of an accused person, or of a person called as a witness in a legisla-
tive investigation, to have legal counsel carries with it the right of the lawyer to
represent and defend him in accordance with the ethical standards of the bar.
"Having undertaken any such representation, the lawyer has a duty to assert
for his client every remedy or defense authorized by the law of the land. The
duty of the lawyer is to be performed, however, only within the bounds of the
law, and his office does not permit, nor demand of him, for any client, any viola-
tion of the law nor any manner of fraud nor improper conduct.
"The public and the bar should recognize the duties and responsibilities of the
lawyer in such ca.ses and should keep in mind that such representation, when
performed in accordance with the applicable ethical standards, is lawful and
proper and that it does not impute to the lawyer his client's vievvs. cha raster,
deeds, or reputation."
There is an analogy to what we have done here. It is in the field of the
criminal law. There, when a person is charged with crime and arraigned before
the court, if he is without counsel and has no funds to enable him to employ
an attorney, the court will appoint an attorney for him to sei-ve without pay
(or, in our State courts, for a small fee paid by the State). The duty to accept
such appointments is a part of the obligation of every lawyer.
7016 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The proceedings before this committee are not, however, criminal proceedings,
and the committee has no power to appoint counsel for witnesses summoned to
appear before it. In the absence of that power, therefore, the Seattle Bar
Association has undertaken the task of supplying counsel for indigent witnesses
just as the courts, for centuries, have appointed counsel for indigent defendants.
The committee is, I think, also aware that there is a precedent for our action
here. When the committee was here 2^4 years ago, in June 1954, a similar
situation was presented. To refresh our recollection I refer to the following
pages of the piinted record of the committee's hearing at that time on its
Investigation of Communist Activities in the Pacific Northwest Area, pages
6336, 6337, 6379, 6380, 6516, 6517, and 6561-6564.
There the situation developed this way : A witness named Henrickson com-
plained that he needed an attorney, that he did not have one and had no money
to employ one. The chairman said that he would excuse the witness for the day
and would ask the president of the Seattle Bar Association to obtain counsel
for the witness. He did so, and the next morning Mr. Michael K. Copass, who
was then president of the association and now is one of our superior court
judges, appeared with the witness and stated that he had undertaken the
representation himself.
Later on in the hearing Mr. Copass appointed Mr. Wayne C. Booth, who was
then the association's first vice president and later became its president, to
represent another indigent witness, and Mr. Booth did so.
Also, pursuant to an appointment made by Mr. Copass, Mr. Alfred .T. Schweppe,^
who was later that year elected president of the Washington State Bar Associa-
tion, appeared at the hearing representing the witness, John Caughlan.
All of these gentlemen served without compensation and in fulfillment of their
obligations as members of the bar. A similar situation exists in the case of
those who will appear before the committee at the present hearing.
I am proud to say that no one of those whom I have appointed hesitated for
a moment in accepting the appointment, even though it was made on short
notice and necessitated the cancellation of many appointments and a serious
disruption of the busy practice of each of these gentlemen. • I think that their
conduct is in keeping with the very highest traditions of the bar, and I am happy
to inform the committee of these facts, so that the committee and the public will
understand them.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1956
U xiTED States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Seattle^ Wash.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess, at 10 : 05 a. m., in the county commissioners as-
sembly room, County-City Building, Seattle, Wash., Hon. Clyde
Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle of Cali-
fornia, and Gordon H. Scherer of Ohio.
Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
Wheeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators ; and Richard S. Weil,
staff member.
(Committee members present at the time of convening : Representa-
tives Doyle and Scherer. )
Mr. Doyle, Please may the committee come to order.
I want to cordially say again how very much the committee appreci-
ates the very definite cooperation of everyone in tin- hearing room
yesterday — we know we will have the same today — the cooperation
with the large group here in the matter of keeping absolutely quiet
and making no demonstration of either approbation or disapproval.
And we appreciate very much also, the definite cooperation of the
legal counsel who have appeared with witnesses and have been so
observant of the committee's rules. We also appreciate the coopera-
tion of the witnesses.
May the record show that, again this morning. Congressman
Scherer, of Ohio, and Congressman Doyle, of California, subcommit-
tee chairman, are both present, of the subcommittee of three appointed
by the full committee chairman, Francis E. Walter, and, therefore, a
legal c[uorum of the subcommittee is present and qualified to proceed.
In this connection may I make this statement for the information
of those that do not know :
The House of Representatives in the last session unanimously adopt-
ed a resolution which became the governing rule of all House of
Representatives investigative committees requiring at least two mem-
bers of an investigative committee be present witli a witness testifying
under oath. That is a standing rule now of all investigative com-
mittees of the House of Representatives. We think it is a great ad-
vancement in the congressional procedure.
7017
7018 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Now, if counsel and my distinguished colleague please, I thought it
appropriate, in view of much mention yesterday of Civil Action File
No. 4287, which was the case by John W. Caughlan, Marion Kinney,
Louise Hatten, Cecelia Corr and Clara Paulson, as members of the
Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, against my-
self, Clyde Doyle, and Harold Velde and Gordon Scherer and Mr.
Wheeler as a John Doe who was served — I thought it appropriate that
we might, Mr. Scherer, include at this point the press release or press
comment as to what the judge said because it appears to be a quote in
the Seattle Post-Intelligencer for Friday, December 14, 1956. It is
very brief. It is on page 8 thereof, and here is what the paper re-
leased as a quote :
Judge Bowen ruled —
this is the Federal judge, a very distinguished Federal judge.
"No court can limit the lawful actions of the legislative braufh of the United
States Government.
"There has been nothing shown to this court which leads the court to find
there is anything invalid in the indicated desire of the legislative committee in
question.
"The material sought (letters, documents and leaflets of the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of the Foreign Born which Judge Bowen said were de-
signed to obtain revision or repeal of the Smith. Internal Security, and Immigra-
tion and Nationality Acts) is well and clearly and unmistakably confined to mat-
ters within the jurisdiction, objectives and normal work of the Congress of the
United States and of its congressional committees, here," he continued.
John Caughlan, attorney for the plaintiffs, asserted — here is an-
other quote :
"Production of the material (before the House subcommittee) will immedi-
ately result in termination of the activities of the Washington Committee for
Protection of the Foreign Born.
"If Mrs. Kinney (Marion Kinuej', a plaintiff and executive secretary of the
WCPFB) declines to produce this material on the gr-ound the committee is ex-
ceeding the scope of the committee or Congress, then she immediately is subject
to the threat of criminal prosecution."
I thought, Mr. Scherer, it would be a])propriate to read this and get
this into the record at this point for the benefit of our colleagues in
Congress.
Mr. ScTiERER. That last part that you read, as I understand it. you
were quoting Caughlan.
Mr. Doyle. I was quoting the quote as repoi'ted by tliis distin-
guished newspaper, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. And they quote
the attorney, John Caughlan, for the plaintiff as making these two
declarations in Federal court yesterday morning about 9 o'clock.
And I think, therefore, it might be interesting to us — it certainly is
to me— to observe the difference of opinion between some of these
witnesses and the distinguished Federal judge where the question is
raised by witnesses that this committee is exceeding its jurisdiction.
There is one other point I want to make for the record. In this
copy of this complaint, which was served on Mr. Wheeler yester-
day, as to which Mrs. Kinney testified she signed a similar docu-
ment, there is an allegation there that you and I. Mr. Scherer, as I
recall it, are residents of Seattle, Wash. Now, of course, that is a
most untrue allegation.
Mr. ScTiERER. T don't think it says that.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I think so. I remember reading it yesterday.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7019
If I am not incorrect, there is an allegation here that you and I are
residents, which, of course, was known to be untrue, manifestly, be-
cause it is well known by paper publication and so forth that we are
only here 2 days in these hearings.
I think it is on page ?> or 4.
How much bad faith can you plead in a complaint in order to try
to get jurisdiction ?
Are you ready, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Before we proceed you will recall that the last wit-
ness yesterday was Clayton VanLydegraf. This morning there was
handed me an article from the Seattle Times of Friday, July 28, 1950.
The heading of the article is : "Red Party Gets Communist's Bonus."
And then it shows a bonus check from the Washington State Veterans'
organization in the amount of $475, payable to Clayton VanLydegraf.
It is his bonus check from the treasurer of the State of Washington.
And it also shows the endorsement of that check by VanLydegraf to
the Communist Party of the State of Washington.
I think I should read at least part of that article. It says, and it
was written by Ed Guthman of the Seattle Times:
VanLydegraf is the No. 2 Communist leader in the State, second only to Henry
Huff, the party's State organizer.
VanLydegraf told a University of Washington faculty investigating committee
in 1948 that he probably v^'ould resign his Air Force commission in event of war
with Russia. His commission expired in 1948 and has not been renewed.
VanLydegraf told the committee he has been a Communist since 1933 and
State Communist secretary the past 3 years.
Mr. Chairman, I ask that the entire article from the Seattle Times
be made a part of the record at the conclusion of VanLydegraf 's testi-
mon3' yesterday.
Mr. Doyle. The order will be made.
(See exhibit 645b, appendix, p. 8244.)
Mr. ScHERER. Yes, the check was endorsed to the State Communist
Party Defense Committee, and the committee was organized to collect
funds for the defense of the 11 Communist leaders convicted in New
York for conspiring to teach the forceful overthrow of the United
States Government. And the article saj^s that in another paragraph.
That is what his bonus check went for,
Mr. DoTi.E. Anyrliing further, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. ScHERER. No.
Mr. Arens. Louise Hatten, kindly come forward. H-a-t-t-e-n.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Hatten. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LOUISE HATTEN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, AETHUE G. BAENETT
Mrs. Hatten. Could I request that I not be televised and no pic-
tures taken ?
Mr. Barnett. Mv. Chairman, the witness asked that she not be
televised.
7020 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Doyle. The press will observe, please.
Mrs, Hatten. I am Louise Hatten, 1815 18th. I am a housewife.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Hatten, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
Mrs. Hatten. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Hatten. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Barnett. I identify myself as Arthur G. Barnett, attorney,
1304 Northern Life Tower, assigned by the Seattle Bar Committee on
Civil Rights to represent this witness.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hatten, what was your maiden name, please?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. Seifried.
Mr. Arens. Would you spell that ?
Mrs. Hatten. S-e-i-f-r-i-e-d.
Mr, Arens, Where were you born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. Cheyenne, Wyo.
Mr. Arens. And give us a word, please, about your education.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Hatten. I have a bachelor's degree from the University of
Washington, and master's degree from the University of Pennsyl-
vania.
Mr. Arens. What is your Pennsylvania master's degree in, please?
Mrs. Hatten. Social work.
Mr. Arens. Could you get a little closer to the microphone. Pull
your chair up a little bit. I have difficulty hearing you.
When did you receive your master's degree ?
Mrs. Hatten. 1948.
Mr. Arens. Now tell us, if you please, what was your first occupa-
tion after you received your master's degree ?
Mrs. Hatten. Social worker.
Mr. Arens. Where ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. My first job after I graduated was in Arlington, Va.,
with the Children's Home Society of Virginia.
Mr. Arens. How long were you employed there?
Mrs. PIatten. For 2 years.
Mr. Arens. x\nd then tell us what was your next employment and
where you were employed.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. From there I went to a job in Seattle with the Wash-
ington Children's Home Society.
Mr. Arens. What year was that?
Mrs. Hatten, 1950.
Mr. Arens. And how long did you occupy that job ?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Barnett. The witness, Your Honor, is objecting to photog-
raphers still taking pictures after she has been sworn.
COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7021
We ^Yould like the record to ^how this is in contempt of this com-
mittee and her rights.
A Photographer. Her request was TV only.
Mr. Barnett. No. Both.
Mr. Doyle. Where is any photographer engaged in taking pictures?
A Photographer. There is no picture being made here.
Mr. Barnett. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I made the same request
yesterday, and we both thanked the press. And this morning pictures
appeared in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, and the record should show
that the Post-Intelligencer ignored it.
I don't Ivnow what can be done about it, but I would like that mild
reproof for the sake of accuracy.
Mr. Scherer. Do you claim the pictures that appeared in the papers
were taken while the w^itness was on the stand ?
Mr. Barnett. That is what we claim.
And, despite our request yesterday on Myrna Anderson, it is in the
front page of the Post-Intelligencer this morning.
Mr. Scherer. Were they taken before she was sworn ?
Mr. Barnett. I preceded the witness and made the request before
she came forward.
Mr. Doyle. Well, that may be. Counsel. But if that picture was
taken before she was sworn it was perfectly proper.
A Photographer. It was made before she was sworn.
]Mr. Doyle. It is a fact that you made the request before she was
sworn, and now here is the representative of that paper who says
to us audibly right here in your presence, and mine, that that picture
was taken before she was sworn.
Mr. Barnett. I am referring at this point to Myrna Anderson.
Mr. Doyle. That is what he is referring to.
So let's proceed, please.
Mr. Arens. The last question outstanding on this record is how long
were you employed in this children's home in Seattle.
Mrs. Hatten. Five years.
Mr. Arens. Beginning when and ending when, please?
Mrs. Hatten. Beginning 1950 ; ending 1955.
Mr. Arens. And then your next employment, please ?
Mrs. Hatten. That was the end of my emplojmient.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of my
rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We display to you now, if you please, the signature
card and resolutions of authority, etc., on the Pacific National Bank
of Seattle for the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, on which appears the signature of Louise Hatten as one of the
officers of that organization. The date is 1954, December.
Kindly look at these documents as they are being displayed to you
and see if you would be good enough to verify their authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 647a, b," see appendix, pp. 8248,
8249.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question also on the basis of
my rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Nov,' we display to you two checks drawn and stamped
by the Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
7022 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
signed by Marian Kinney and Louise Hatten. One is dated September
1956, and the other is in August of 1956.
Kindly look at those checks and see if you won't be good enough to
verify the authenticity of your signature.
Mr. Akens. And while she is doing that, Mr. Chairman, I respect-
fully suggest that if, as and when this witness signs a voucher for her
per diem, that part of the voucher bearing her signature be incorpo-
rated in the body of the record.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 648a-c," see appendix, pp. 8250-
8252.)
Mr. Doyle, The order is made.
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer again on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of an organization that
bore the name of Queen Anne ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr, Arens. You were the recording secretary of the Queen Anne
Branch of the Communist Political Association here in Seattle ; were
you not ?
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that you were active in the
Communist Party in Philadelphia, and ask you to affirm or deny that
fact.
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer that also on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Are you or have you been an officer of the Washington
State Comm.ittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Lillian Clott, C-1-o-t-t ?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question also on the groimds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was the address at which you lived when you were
working in Seattle?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that also on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the wit-
ness be ordered and directed to answer that question,
Mr, DoYi-E. I direct you to answer that question, Witness.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that in 1949 you were living with Lillian Clott, a Communist.
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Are you this minute a Communist ?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes ; I have 1 or 2, Mr. Chairman.
Is it Mrs. Hatten ?
Mrs. Hatten. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Mrs. Hatten, since you requested the Seattle Bar As-
sociation to represent you at this hearing because you have no funds, I
assume then that you did not pay the costs or the fees involved
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7023
in this suit which you filed against this committee 2 days ago.
Who paid those costs and fees ?
(The witness confers with her comisel.)
Mrs. Hatten. I don't know the answer to that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Well, do you loiow that money was advanced to the
clerk of the Federal district court here so that the subpenas could be
served ? Do you know that ?
(The witness confers with her comisel.)
Mrs. Hattex. I have heard that that is true.
Mr. ScHERER. Who advanced that money ?
Mrs. Haitex. Well, I don't know.
Mr. ScHERER, Who were your attorneys in this action ?
(The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten. There were several attorneys involved in that, and I
am not sure who they all were. Mr. Phil Burton
Mr. Scherer. Give us the names of those you know.
Mrs. Hatten. Mr. Phil Burton, Philip Burton, was the chief coun-
sel in that action.
Mr. Scherer. What other attorneys that you know of participated
in the filing of this action on your behalf ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatte^t. I know that I don't know all of them, but I know
Mr. Sykes, Jay Sykes, Mr. John Caughlan, and Mr. Francis Hoague.
Mr. Scherer. Your husband is a member of the Seattle bar. Was
he one of counsel ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hattek. No ; he wasn't one of them.
Mr. Scherer. Did you see this complaint before it was filed ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hattex. No ; I didn't, sir.
Mr. Scherer, Did you know w^hat the complaint contained ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Hatten". Yes ; in general I know what is in it.
Mr. Scherer. What part did the Communist Party have in the prep-
aration of this complaint and the filing of this complaint ?
( The witness confers v:ith her counsel. )
Mrs. Hattex. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know how many of the parties involved with
vou as plaintiffs in this action were actual members of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Did you Iniow that at least one of the attorneys was
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Hattejst. Again I must decline to answer that question on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Now before we pass on to another matter, Mr, Chair-
man, I want to apologize to you because when you said that this com-
plaint alleged that the three Members of the Congress who were parties
defendants were residents of King County, Seattle, Wash., I questioned
that. I didn't tliink they would have the gall to make that allegation
in order to obtain jurisdiction.
7024 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
But, in reading the petition, I find that you were right and I am
wrong.
We were not even present in the State of Washington at the time
this affidavit was made. Nor were we present, actually present, in the
State of Washington at the time the suit was filed. And, of course, we
are not residing in the State of Washington. That is obvious. We are
here as visitors on assignment of the Congress of the United States.
So I apologize for questioning j'^our statement this morning.
Mr. Doyle. Well, you and I both have practiced law jears before
we first went to Congress, and we know that is bad faith with the
court, to deliberately make a knowingly false and untrue allega-
tion in order to get jurisdiction.
Mr. ScHERER. Well, if you will recall, the party plaintiif who actu-
ally signed this complaint was on the stand yesterday and took the fifth
amendment when I asked her whether all the allegations in this peti-
tion or complaint were true. And there are others that I do not want
to discuss at this time.
Mr. Doyle. You and I in our years on this committee have learned
we can expect most anything false and misrepresentative and untrue
from any committee that is controlled by the Communist Party the way
this American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born is through-
out the United States so far as the evidence is concerned. We know
that. But we can't overlook it just because they are in the habit of
lying.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions.
You are excused, Witness, and counsel.
Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Julia Ruuttila, R.-u-u-t-t-i-1-a.
Mr. D0Y1.E. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing bii t the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, I do, so help me, God.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JULIA HUUTTILA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUN-
SEL, FKANK H. POZZI AND BERKELEY LENT
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence-
Mrs. Ruuttila. May I request no pictures, no television, and no
movies.
And please accept my apologies as a reporter for making this request.
Mr. Doyle. The press always cooperates with such a request, and
I am sure they will in this instance.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ruuttila. My name is Julia Ruuttila.
Mr. Arens. We can't hear you.
Mrs. Ruuttila. My name is Julia Ruuttila,
Mr. Arens. Please get a little closer to the microphone.
Mr. Doyle. May the witness spell that name, Mr. Arens, please.
Mr. Arens. Is it R-u-u-t-t-i-1-a ?
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, it is.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7025
I have a bad case of pleurisy, and it is difficult for me to talk. I
will do my best.
My name is Julia Ruuttila. I live in Astoria, Oreg. I am a house-
wife, and I do a little writing.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourselves.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg. ; B. Lent,
Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. What was your maiden name, Mrs. Ruuttila?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ruuttila. I respectfully decline to answer that question, based
upon my rights, privileges, and immunities accorded to me by the first,
fourth, fifth, ninth, and tenth amendments of the Constitution of the
United States.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question as to what is her maiden
name.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ruuttila. I must decline to answer on the same grounds that
I have stated.
Mr. Arens. For whom do you do this writing? You said in
your apologies to the press that you do a little writing and you are a
reporter.
For whom do you report and for what publication do you write ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ruuttila. I am a free-lance reporter, and the only thing that
I am doing regularly at the present time is I send Oregon local ILWU
news items to the official union newspaper, the Dispatcher.
Mr. Scherer. I can't hear the witness.
Mrs. Ruuttila. I am a free-lance reporter and writer, and the only
thing that I am doing regularly at the present time is I send local
ILWU news items from Oregon to the official union newspaper, the
Dispatcher.
Mr. Arens. Under what name do you write?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ruuitila. I write for the Dispatcher under the name Kathleen
Ruuttila.
Mr. Arens. Spell that, please.
Mrs. Ruuttila. K-a-t-h-]-e-e-n R-u-u-t-t-i-1-a.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever used the non de plume Julia Eaton?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr, Arens. You don't need to read that again. If you just want to
invoke the fifth amendment, invoke it.
Mrs. Ruuttila. I decline
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ruuttila. I decline to answer on the basis of all the reasons I
stated before.
7026 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, young lady, that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you write under the name of
Julia Eaton you would be supplying information that could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. KuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer that for the reasons pre-
viously given.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer that question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. Will you repeat the question, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Do you honestly appreliend if you told tliis committee truthfully
whether or not you write under the name or have written under the
name of Julia Eaton you would be supplying information that might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now for wliat other publications do you write besides
the labor group that you have told about, this ILWU ?
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. I have written a good deal of poetry for the
Oregonian.
Mr. Arens. I didn't get that. Say that again, please.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. RuuTTiLA. I have written a good deal of poetry for the poetry
page of the Oregonian.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel for the witness be
admonished not to touch the witness, and to signal her in that respect,
and to wait until the witness requests advice from counsel.
Now, ma'am, what other publications have you written for?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I have written a good deal of poetry for the poetry
page of the Oregonian published in Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. What other publications ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RutJTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to lay before you a few exhibits. First of
all, we have an exhibit from the Communist Daily People's World,
Julia Eaton, whose articles have appeared in the Daily People's World
under the byline Kathleen Cronin, was fired under a loyalty program
over in Portland.
Look at this article and tell this committee now while you are under
oath if it is not a fact that you are the same person, Kathleen Cronin
and Julia Eaton and Julia Ruuttila.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 649," see appendix, p. 8253.)
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Ruuttila. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, ma'am, that you are one and
the same person as indicated in the Communist publication.
Now, we want to lay before you a copj'' of the Communist Daily
People's World in which your photograph appears, in a striking like-
ness to your present appearance, in 1948. A photograph of Julia
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7027
Eaton, who, according to the articles, was discharged from tlie Oregon
Public Welfare Commission.
Kindly look at that article and tell us if you won't be good enough
to verify the authenticity of j^our photograph and of that designation
of youi*self .
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 650," see appendix, p. 8254.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuTJTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Witness.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you fired because you criticized the Oregon Public
Welfare Commission ?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I received a letter from the commission, signed by
Loa Howard, the administrator, firing me without notice and with no
reasons being given.
Mr. Arens. And under what name did this all transpire?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Rutjttila. I must decline to answer on the reasons I have
previously stated.
]\lr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer this question.
Mr. Doyle. I again direct you to answer that question. Witness.
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you one of your creative
efforts in the field of writing. It is in the Connnunist Daily People's
World, an article about America's stepchildren, telling about 14
million persons of foreign birth who are jeopardized under the in-
famous law, the McCarran-Walter Act, by Julia Ruuttila.
Look at this article in which all kinds of allegations and assertions
are made respecting a reign of terror in the United States, and see
if you don't want to apologize again to the press representatives who
are here because of your authorship of that article.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 651," see appendix, pp. 8255-8257.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuL-TTiLA. Will you have the question repeated for me, please.
'Sir. Arens. Yes.
Kindly repeat tlie question back to the witness, Mr. Reporter.
( Tlie question was read by the i-eporter.)
Mrs. laiuTTiLA. I shall have to decline to answer on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I should like to display to you still another article.
It is from the Communist Daily Worker, Sunday, January 29, 1956.
It is a curious thing I want to invite your attention to.
The by-line says by "Julia Ruutila". And there is a descriptioii
of who this "Julia Ruutila" is. It says this is :
First of a series of articles written exclusively for Federated Press by Mrs.
liuuttila, secretary of tlie Clatsop County Coniniittee for I'rotection of Foreign
Boin.
7028 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The article is headed: "McCarran Act Exiled Over 11,000 Last
Year."
A vicious attack against a security law of this country.
Look at this article and see if you don't want to repeat the apology
you made to your fellow pressmen who are present today.
^Document marked "Exhibit No. 652," see appendix, pp. 8257, 8258.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ruui'TiLA. I must decline to answer on the grounds that I
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you honestly described there, truthfully described
there as secretary of the Clatsop County Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. KuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. And have you been connected with the Astoria Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds I
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I want to submit to you still another article from
the Communist Daily Worker of February 5, 1956, entitled : "Shadow
of Fear Hangs Over Many Foreign Born, by Josephine Euutila (sic) ."
And the lead paragraph I want to read to you :
Hundreds of victims of the vicious McCarran-Walter Nationality Act just
disappear from the American scene. People remembered by neighbors and
workers as "that nice Canadian woman I used to meet at the supermarket" or
that Norwegian — or Italian, or Finn — "who worked on the green chain."
People who had no money for lawyers' fees, no idea which lawyer to approach.
Men who told their wives before they were hauled off to .jail : "Call up the plant
(or the hiring hall). Tell 'em I can't come to work for a while, but say I'm
sick." Men who never saw their fellowworkers again.
Don't you want to apologize now again to the press, your fellow
pressmen, for this monstrous misrepresentation appearing in a Com-
munist publication with reference to a security law passed by the
Congress of the United States?
Look at that article and tell this committee while you are under oath
and your fellow pressmen, to whom you apologized a few moments
ago for not permitting your picture to be taken, whether or not you
are the author of that diatribe.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 653," see appendix, pp. 8258, 8259.)
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. It was rather lengthy.
Would you please have it repeated to me, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
First of all, do you want to apologize writing that article to your
fellow pressmen ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. I must respectfully refuse to answer the last ques-
tions upon the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th and 10th amendments to the Constitution of the
United States.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of a single case in which a person has
been the subject of investigation — exclusion, deportation — in which
you or your organization have taken an active interest, in which that
person is not a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7029
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I'm sorrry, but I don't have too much breath. I
have pleurisy. And you didn't permit me to finish answering.
Mr. Pozzi. The previous question.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. The previous question.
Mr. Arens. I thought she just invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pozzi. She has some other grounds.
Mr. Arens. You go ahead and give us all the grounds you want to
give us.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I further decline to answer that question on the
grounds that it is not pertinent to the matter and question under in-
quiry.
And I further decline to answer that question on the grounds that
it is beyond the scope of matters concerning which this commission
is authorized to inquire.
Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you still another docu-
ment from the Communist Daily Worker of February 12, 1956 — "Im-
migration Laws Create Second-Class Citizenship" — again alluding to
the reign of terror because of the McCarran-Walter Act which pro-
vides for the deportation of Communist traitor aliens.
Kindly look at this document and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether or not that is one of your handiworks.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 654," see appendix, p, 8260.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Ktjdttil^. I must decline to answer this question upon all of
the grounds, all of them that I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I would like to discuss with you for a few moments
some of your other activities.
We see here in 1948, in a copy of the Communist Daily AVorker — •
"Oregon Communist Party Presents Flood Aid Plan, by Kathleen
Cronin" :
The Oregon Communist Party today presented a blueprint for relief of —
certain flood victims.
Kindly look at this document and see if you were the author and if
you can't be good eough to verify the authenticity of your authorship
of that article.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 655," see appendix, p. 8261.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer this question on the
grounds already given.
Mr. Arens. Now we would like to display to you, in series here,
in order to economize on time, articles of your authorship — Kathleen
Cronin — appearing in Communist publications.
Kindly look at those documents and tell this committee while you
are under oath whether or not you are the author of those articles.
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 656 a, b," see appendix, pp. 8262,
8263.)
Mr. Lent. Where exhibits are attached in 2 parts are you referring
to it all as 1 exhibit ?
Mr. Arens. That is right, yes.
Mrs. RuuTFiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I see here a document that puzzles me a little, and
perhaps you can help us.
Kathleen Cronin, well-known labor journalist in the Northwest, has agreed
to serve as MOL's correspondent in the Northwest States.
85333— 57— pt. 1 57
7030 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
And then these is an article appearing: "Marshall Plan in Reverse,
by Kathleen Cronin, MOL's Northwestern correspondent." This
article appears in March of Labor.
Tell us, if you please, ma'am, while you are under oath, are you
or were you one of the correspondents for the March of Labor ?
^Document marked "Exhibit No. 657," see appendix, p. 8264.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon all of the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I have here, by an article by yourself : "It Was Murder
on Clatsop Spit." All about a man who, as a result of the immigra-
tion laws wiiere he was deported, finds himself facing death and
murder, under the authorship of Kathleen Cronin.
Would you tell us about that case while you are under oath on this
record ? And would you also verify the authenticity of your author-
ship of that article.
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mr. EurrmLA. I decline to answer upon all of the reasons I have
previously given.
Mr. Arens. What is your husband's name, for the purpose of
identification ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. My husband's name is Oscar Ruuttila.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. Now I want to show you another exhibit
from the Communist Daily People's World of August 2, 1951, when
the 11 Communist traitors were on trial in New York City,
According to this article, Oscar Ruuttila of Astoria, Oreg. wired
Mr. Truman that the arrest of these people constitutes a horrible
nightmare in America from which there may be no awakening unless
you act now. And Kathleen Cronin, who is listed in the same article
as a veteran labor journalist in the Northwest, wired the Attorney
General her vigorous protest.
Unless you act now to reduce the prohibitive bail in this case many working
newsmen will regard you as a second Goebbels.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 658," see appendix, p. 8265.)
That was directed to the Attorney General in protest of the arrest
of the 11 Communist traitors who were tried in New York City.
Now tell your fellow pressmen, to whom you apologized a little
while ago, whether you really were sincere when you felt the arrest
of these 11 Communist traitors, the trial of them by a jury of their
peers, and their conviction, was really just a matter of Goebbels' opera-
tion and a reign of terror.
Mr. ScHERER. Even with the high bail, didn't some of them jump
bail?
Mr. Arens. I think 1 or 2 of them did, yes.
Mr. ScHERER. They couldn't find them.
The bail should have been higher.
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Rtjdttila. I must decline to answer upon the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Maybe you can give us a little bit of enlightenment
as to what you mean in this article : "Layoffs Mount as State Depart-
ment Bans China Trade." It is in the Communist Daily Worker^
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7031
hj Kathleen Cronin, in which our Government is taken to task for
bannino; trade with Eecl China, Communist China, and in which
article that is described and characterized as one of the principal
causes for the layofl's of the working people.
Look at that article and see if you don't have perhaps a twinge of
conscience that maybe you may have stretched the facts a bit.
( See exhibit No. 656b, appendix, p. 8263. )
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon all of the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I have just 1 or 2 more articles I want to ask
you about. And you understand we are very happy to have you speak
up freely. We are not undertaking to impede your free speech here.
Here is an article appearing in the Communist Daily People's
World. "Framed" is the name of the article, the title. Framed."
Just one word. The author of this article about people being framed,
with a photograph, is Julia Eaton.
She is described this way :
Julia Eaton, who writes under the name of Kathleen Cronin —
She is identified further as a person who is a special correspondent
for the Daily People's World.
Look at that article and that photograph and see if you have any
apology to oiler for that photograph.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 659," see appendix, p. 8266.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon all of the grounds
I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, ma'am, that you are a member
identified, or have been, with the North End Club of the Communist
Party in Portland, Oreg., and that you are now and have been for
several years one of the principal propagandists in the Northwest for
the Communist conspiracy. If that isn't true, deny it, while you are
under oath.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. Would you repeat the question, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
I put it to you as a fact that in the course of the last few years you
were actively identified with a Communist cell in Portland, Oreg.
That is question No, 1. North End Club. Answer that question and
then we will get on to the next one.
Mr. Pozzr. Mr. Arens, I am sorry to interrupt but are these gentle-
men taking pictures?
A Photographer. No. We are just looking.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon the grounds I pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now will we get to the second question.
I put it to you as a fact, ma'am, and ask you to affirm or deny the
fact that you are and have been for some several years been one of the
principal propagandists in the Northwest for the Communist con-
spiracy.
7032 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mrs. Rtjuttila. Would you repeat the question to me, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am, I would be glad to, for the third time.
I put it to you as a fact, that you are now and have been for some
time one of the principal propagandists for the Communist conspiracy
in the Northwest.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon all of the grounds I
have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interogation of this witness.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. Madam, you have written about the alleged reign
of terror resulting from the application of the provisions of the se-
curity acts of this country.
Have you written anything at all about the reign of terror resulting
from the massacres by the Communists of the Hungarians in the last
few months?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Of course, that would have been published if she had,
at least a week or 10 days ago.
Mr. Scherer. A month.
Mr. Doyle. Or a month ago.
So she should have a copy of it, shouldn't she ?
Mr. Scherer. If she wrote it,
Mr. Doyle. If she wrote it. Sure.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. No.
Mr. Scherer. The answer is no ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. Did you approve the actions of the Communists in
Hungary ?
Is that the reason you haven't said anything about it ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. Which Communists ?
Mr. Scherer. The Communists are an international group.
The Russians.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. The question is so unclear to me that I must decline
answer on the grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. The question is unclear ?
T merely asked : Do you approve of the actions of the Russian Com-
munists against the people of Hungary who are asking for self-determi-
nation of their Government — that is clear — and the obvious reign of
terror which the whole world knows has been created by the kill-
ing of these people who have merely asked that they have the right
to select their own Government and not be dominated by the Kremlin?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I have never been in a position to cover that story,
and I haven't read too much about it. But, from the little that I
have read in the press, I disapprove.
Mr. Scherer. From tlie little she has read about it, slie disapproves.
Mr. Arens. It liasn't caused you to break with the Communist con-
spiracy, though, has it ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer that question on the
grounds T have previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. But you have not said anything about it in your
writings in the articles you have submitted to tliese papers for whom
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7033
you write ? You have not gone on record publicly in any of your writ-
ings as criticizing the action of the Kussian Communists, have you ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer that question on all of the
reasons I have previously given.
Mr. ScHERER. I put it to you as a fact that you liave not written one
single word criticizing the action of the Russian Communists in Hun-
gary in relation to the oppression of the Hungarians who are attempt-
ing to have self-determination in their own Government.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I am very sorry, I turned to my attorney. I
thought you had finished the question. I am afraid I missed part of it.
Mr. ScHERER. I put it to you as a fact, and if it is not a fact will you
deny it, that you have not written one single word criticizing or con-
demning the actions of the Russian Communists in Hungary.
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. Well, she said she had read very little about it. I didn't
suppose there was a newspaper person or a writer in America that, in
the presence of all the newsp'aper headlines and voluminous Associated
and UP reports about the slaughter in Hungary by the Soviet Com-
munists— I didn't suppose there was any intelligent person that had
read very little about it.
But this witness— I understood her to say she read very little
about it.
Mr. ScHERER. That is right. But I just say I put it to her as a fact
that she has not written one word condemning or criticizing the action
of the Russian Communists in Hungary.
Mr. Doyle. How could she write anything intelligent about it, Mr.
Scherer? She said she had read very little about it.
ISIr. Scherer. Is what I have said true ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. In answer to Representative Scherer, the answer
would be "no" in answer to the question that he has.
Mr. Scherer. The answer is what ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. No.
]\Ir. Scherer. No, you have not written.
All right.
jMr. Doyle. I think while the witness is on the stand I want to read
one brief paragraph, and I think I want to ask her a question.
I hold in my hand a copy of Public Law 831 by the 81st Congress.
This is known as the Internal Security Act of 1950. Are you familiar
with that law, Mrs. Cronin?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. To answer your question, to say that I was extremely
familiar with that law would imply that I had a detailed, technical
knowledge of the law through having studied and read it to consider-
able extent.
]\[r. Doyle. You do have ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I would not say that I did have as much detailed
knowledge of that law as some lawyers might have, no.
Mr. Doyle. No. But you have a good knowledge, do you not — you
feel you do — about the objectives of that law, without knowing the
detail of it?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I am not that familiar, Representative Doyle.
7034 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. I heg your pardon ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I am not that familiar with the law, Representative
Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I took it you were at least familiar enough with
it so that ycu wrote against it. I would assume that you would know
what you were talking about when you wrote an article against it.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. DoYLE. You assumed to know enough about it to inform your
readers against it, I think this testimony shows. So you were writing
something you didn't know anything about. Was that it ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I will decline to answer that question on the grounds
I have previously stated.
Mr. DoYLE. Now I am going to read you one paragraph, and this
is the very first section of the act about which you have written some
articles condemning it. And certainly you took time to read this
much before you wrote your article for pay to the Communist paper.
Now this is a declaration by your Congress, of which Mr. Scherer
and I are a part for several years. And here is what it says in section 1 :
This title may be cited as the Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950.
Nothing in this act shall be construed to authorize, require, or establish military
or civilian censorship or in any way to limit or infringe upon freedom of the
press or of speech as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and
no regulation shall be promulgated hereunder having that effect.
(Representative Gordon H. Sclierer w^ithdrew from the hearing
room at this point. )
Mr. DoYLE. Section 2.
As a result of evidence adduced before the various committees of the Senate
and House of Representatives, the Congress hereby finds that — there exists a
world Communist movement which in its origins, its development and its present
practice, is a worldwide revolutionary movement whose purpose it is, by treachery,
deceit, infiltration into other groups (governmental and otherwise), espionage,
sabotage, terrorism, and any other means deemed necessary, to establish a Com-
munist totalitarian dictatorship in the countries throughout the world through
the medium of a worldwide Communist organization.
End of quote.
As long as you have written in the Communist People's World con-
demning and criticizing this act, one paragraph of which I have read,
I will give you the opportunity to criticize that paragraph, if vou
will.
Is there anything wrong in that ?
Your United States Congress made that finding.
Did we make a mistake or no ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds previ-
ously stated. Representative Doyle.
Mr. DoYLE. I would suggest that before you write any more articles
condemning the internal security provisions of our existing statutes
that you study them a little bit more so you will know what you are
talking about instead of having to testify under oath that you don't
know nuK'h about them.
I think that is all from this winess.
Thank you, and counsel.
Mr, Arens. Maybe you want to take a recess.
Mr. Doyle. May we have not over a 5-minute recess.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7035
(Whereupon a brief recess was taken. Committee membei-s present :
Representative Doyle.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. While we are waitinp; for just a minute, I will state
that there will be an afternoon session of this committee starting at
2 o'clock.
We will run as long as necessary to hear all the witnesses we want
to.
]Mr. Arens. Are you ready for the first witness, Mr, Chairman ?
Mr. DoYLB. Yes.
Mr. Arexs. Vincent Howard, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Howard, will you please raise your right hand.
Do 3'ou solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
jNIr. Howard. I do.
Mr. DoYi.E. Please take the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OP VINCENT HOWARD, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mr. Howard. My name is Vincent M. Howard. I live at 2706 North
Williams Avenue.
Mr. Arexs. Will it be convenient for you if you get a little closer to
the microphone ?
Mr. Howard. My name is Vincent M. Howard. I live at 2706 Xorth
Williams Avenue, Portland, Oreg. xVnd I am a warehouseman.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Howard, I have to apologize to you. We couldn't
hear you.
Would you kindly accommodate us by repeating that?
]yir. Howard. My name is Vincent M. Howard. I live at 2706 North
Williams Avenue, IPortland, Oreg. I am a warehouseman.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
iVIr. Howard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arex'S. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arenas. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Sykes. My name is Jay G. Sykes. And I am representing this
witness at the request of and on behalf of the Washington State Chap-
ter of the American Civil Liberties Union,
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Howard, please tell us the post you hold with the
Committee for the Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born.
Mr. Howard. I hold no post with that organization.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever held a position of educational director
for the Committee for the Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born ?
Mr. Howard. I have not.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been identified with the organization in
any capacity?
Mr. Howard. I have not.
7036 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Civil Rights Con-
gress of Portland ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Howard. Yes.
Mr. Sykes. Just a minute.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Howard. Well, I decline to answer that under the
Mr. Arens. You have already answered it. You said "Yes." It
is on this record.
Mr. ScHERER. Maybe he wants to change his answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Howard. Will you repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. The question was : are you a member and officer of the
Civil Rights Congress in Portland ? And you said yes.
Mr. Howard. Well, I am not. I misunderstood the question.
Mr. Arens. I see. Have you ever been identified with the Civil
Rights Congress of Oregon ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Howard. I refuse to answer on the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a Communist ?
Mr. Howard. I refuse to answer that question on the fifth also.
Mr. Arens. That will conclude the staff interrogation of this
witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever been identified with any committee
for the protection of the foreign born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Howard. I don't understand what that "identified" means.
Mr. Scherer. Member of.
Mr. Howard. I refuse to answer that under the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green ?
Mr. Howard. No.
Mr. Scherer. As I understand it — maybe I am confused — you
denied having ever been a member of the Oregon Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, but you have taken the fifth amendment to
my question as to whether or not you have been a member of any com-
mittee for the protection of the foreign born. Is that right ?
Mr. Howard. I ask you to repeat the question. I wasn't sure what
it was.
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever been a member of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born or any of its branch or local
organizations ?
Mr. Howard. I will take the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is
Mr. Arens. I would like to ask this one question: Did you attend
a session in Oregon in which Pettis Perry spoke on behalf of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Howard. I will take the first and the fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Did you confer with Abner Green, executive secretary
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born with refer-
ence to the operations of that organization in Oregon ?
Mr. Howard. I will take the first and fifth.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX 7037
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you, counsel.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Norman Haaland, H-a-a-1-a-n-d.
Norman Haaland.
Mr. Sykes, Congressman Doyle, because of certain legal issues that
may have been raised by responses of clients that I have represented,
I feel that I must ask the committee whether it considers that it has
stated officially and formally for the record the purpose and scope
of this inquiry.
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; it has been stated several times.
Mr. ScHERER. We made a long opening statement which is a part
of the record, and a part of which has been reported in the press.
Mr. Sykes. Congressman Scherer, do I understand that that formal
statement, that that statement you made, you consider the formal
official statement as to the purposes?
Mr. Doyle. No, no.
When I make a statement as a preliminary statement, we are not
limited in our questions by that statement, if that is what you are
getting at. That is merely a preliminary statement. We don't intend
to be limited by that or by anything else we legally inquire into. Does
that help you?
Mr. Sykes. Yes, Congressman. I am raising this question on a
legal point.
Mr. Doyle. This is not a court, sir. And we will not entertain any
legal points.
Mr. Sykes. If the matter comes to court, the issue of the scope of
this inquiry might be relevant.
Mr. Arens. You prove your case on the basis of the information
you have.
Mr. Doyle. The law gives the scope, and not any preliminary state-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Norman Haaland, kindly come forward.
Mr. Haaland. I am standing before 3'^ou.
Mr. Arens. Please raise your right hand.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Haaland. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN HAALAND ; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Haaland. I am Norman Haaland, of Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. How do you spell that, please?
Mr. Haaland. H-a-a-1-a-n-d. And I am unemployed.
Mr. Arens. And your address ?
7038 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Haaland. 1727 Southeast Ladd.
Mr. Arens. When were you last employed ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I was last employed in Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mr. Haaland. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Haaland. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Sykes. My name is Jay Sykes, and I am representing this
witness on behalf of and at the request of the Washington State
chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was your last employment, please, Mr. Haaland ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Haaland. You mean the nature of that or what date it was
Mr. Arens. What was it ?
Mr. Haaland. It was carpenter work.
Mr. Arens. And how long were you employed there ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Haaland. Seven or eight days.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was your last principal employment prior to this
carpentry work ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Haaland. Carpenter work.
Mr. Arens. And for how long were you engaged in this carpentry
work?
Mr. Haaland. Sir, does that mean how long I have been at the
trade?
Mr. Aeens. Yes, sir. That would help us.
Mr. Haaland. Approximately 10 years.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us of some of your outside activities?
You have told us of your principal occupation as a carpenter.
What have been some of your outside interests and activities in
addition to your carpentry work?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haai^and. I would like to have that question more specific.
Mr. Arens. Well, you have engaged in the aged and honorable
profession or trade of a carpenter. Tell us some of your outside in-
terests and activities that you engage in or have engaged in in your
spare time in the course of the last 10 years.
Are you still a little bit uncertain about what we are talking about?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
1st, 4th, 5th, and I think I will invoke the 9th and 10th amendments
as well.
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to any lodges ?
Mr, Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to any organizations of the nonsub-
versive variety ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. What do you mean by nonsubversive ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7039
Mr. Arens. We are right back where we started from. Let's
enumerate now, if you please, the organizations that you have belonged
to in the course of the last 5 years.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arexs. If you want me to help you, I can perhaps suggest to
you, do you belong to the American Legion ?
Mr. Haaland. I have already answered your previous question,
but that I
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to the American Legion? You wanted
me to be a little more specific. Let's try that.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Ajrens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully
Mr. Sykes. Excuse me.
(The witness confers with his covmsel.)
Mr. Sykes. May the witness finish the answer ?
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead, Witness.
Mr. Haaland. Under the amendments of the Bill of Eights, as
previously stated. I think that is covered by amendment No. 5.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question whether or not he
belongs to the American Legion.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I so instruct you, Witness.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Doyle. We have never known a case where membership in
the American Legion might possibly incriminate a patriotic American
citizen.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I think this might incriminate me, and I might waive
my right under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee whether
or not you are or have been a member of the American Legion you
would he giving information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. Yes. I don't know anything about the character of
it, and it might be subversive as far as I know.
Mr. Arens. Do you hold a card in the carpenter's union ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
INIr. Haaland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And what organization is that ? TNHiat labor organiza-
tion is that?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, ^Mr. Chairman, the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. He has already said
he holds a card in a labor organization. I just asked him Avhich
organization it was.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Witness.
( The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
7040 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Can you tell the committee what you have done for
the preservation of the Constitution in the course of the last 5 or 10
years ?
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer
Mr. Stkes. Just a minute,
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. Would you make that more specific ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. What organizations have you been active in
which, on the surface at least, purport to be interested in preserving
the Constitution ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated, and also that it is not a clear question.
Mr. Arens. Let's be as specific as possible. Have you been an
official of the Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born?
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Back in 1955 you were chairman of the ways and
means committee of the Committee for the Protection of Oregon's
Foreign Born, were you not?
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. And presently you are an official of the Portland Com-
munist Party and an official of the State apparatus of the Communist
conspiracy ; are you not ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have one question. Witness.
I understood you to say that one of the reasons you refused to
answer the question whether or not you were a member of the Ameri-
can Legion was that it might be subversive.
You so stated, did you not ?
I think the record will show that. I clearly heard you.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. And in connection with that answer you relied upon
your constitutional privilege, and then added that the American
Legion might be subversive.
Now is the reason you claimed your constitutional privilege in an-
swer to the last question by our distinguished counsel regarding the
Communist Party in Portland — is the reason you claim your constitu-
tional privilege there also because it might be subversive?
(The witness confers v/ith his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I do refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Doyle. I couldn't help but notice that you put the American
Legion in the possible category of being subversive, but you don't
put the Communist Party in that answer in that same category.
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7041
Mr. Doyle. I wanted you to know that we had noticed that answer
ubout the Leojion.
Mr. ScHERER. A typical Communist answer.
Mr. Doyle. It is typical. No, no. This is the first time I have
ever heard a man state from the witness chair that the Legion might
be subversive.
Mr. Arens. Tliat term subversive me<ans perhaps in some people's
terminology subversive to their interests.
Mr. Sciierer. The Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. That is, the Legion might be undertaking to destroy the
Communist Party, and therefore be subversive. I see. Well, that ex-
plains it. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens, The next witness, please, Mr. Chairman, is John Dasch-
bach. John Daschbach, please come forward.
Mr. Caughlan. My client requests that there be no pictures taken
during his interrogation, if you please.
Mr. Doyle. We will observe the freedom of the press at all times
before the witness is sworn, actually sworn, and after he is dismissed
from the witness chair.
But, of course, when the witness is sworn, counsel, then we recognize
that he is under the control of the committee for a lawful purpose,
and we expect the press to fully regard the expressed wish of the
witness.
Mr. Caughlan. Thank you. Of course, I call your attention to the
fact that he is here under subpena, and he was to be here. So that,
as far as freedom is concerned
Mr. Doyle. That is right. And, of course, the press does not have
to be here, but it also has some freedoms in our country. We won't
undertake to control the free exercise of democracy by the press.
Mr. Caughlan". I assume the hearing is under the control of the
chairman, and the chairman can make any directions he sees fit.
Mr. Doyle. I will never direct the press to not take a picture of a
person in a hearing room when he is not under oath. Please raise
your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Daschbacpi. I do.
Mr. DoTLE. Please take the chair.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN DASCHBACH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN CAUGHLAN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mr. Dasctibach. I am appearing here under subpena. My name is
Jolm Daschbach.
Mr. Arens. Your occupation ?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Daschbach. I would like to have that question again.
Mr. Arens. And your occupation, please, sir ?
Mr. Caughlan. May I advise the connnittee Mr. Daschbach is
somewhat hard of hearing, and we may have some difficulty.
Mr. Arens. Please give us your occupation.
7042 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr, Doyle. Mr. Arens, excuse me.
Counsel, will you please explain to the witness, in view of the fact
that he has an open book on his table there from which he apparently
intends to read in whole or in part, that we do not permit any reading
of prepared statements or any books or histories or anything like that.
If there is any statement, it should have been furnished to the com-
mittee before now.
Mr. Caughlan. Maybe we could identify the book.
Mr. Doyle. No, we Son't permit reading from any book.
Mr. Arens. Please tell the committee your occupation.
Mr. Daschbach. I decline to answer that question on the following
grounds, that I am appearing here under a subpena which states that
there are certain pains and penalties attached to it. I am provided
with a right of counsel.
I have certain inalienable constitutional rights which are given to
me, and I am going to claim and assert each and every one of them.
I decline to answer that question on the grounds, first, that I am
going to uphold the right of conscience and decline to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds of the most basic proposition of our Government,
of popular sovereignty, and that, as a citizen of the United States and
a citizen of the State of Washington, I possess part of the popular
sovereignty which the whole people possess.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if j^ou told this committee
Mr. Daschbach. I haven't finished my answer.
Mr. Arens. Just a moment. Do you honestly apprehend that if
you told this committee truthfully what your occupation is you would
136 supplying information that could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ? That is the issue.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I am going to complete my answer.
And then I shall proceed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
]\Ir. Doyle. I want to inform 3n3u that you are not going to com-
plete making a speech for public consumption. You are going to
Mr. Daschbach. On the grounds, sir, of the fourth amendment of
the Constitution of the United States, which provides the American
people with certain rights of privacy.
On the grounds, secondly, of the first amendment, that Congress
has no right to investigate such matters as where I work.
On the grounds of the sixth amendment, that this represents an in-
vasion of my right of appeal, an invasion of my right under the fifth
amendment to due process of law.
I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Wait just a minute. Which part of the fifth amend-
ment are you invoking? You had better confer with your counsel
on that.
Are you invoking that portion of the fifth amendment which enables
you to decline to give information which, in your judgment, might
honestly be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7043
Mr. Daschbach. In answer to that question, I propose that the sub-
committee withdraw the subpena issued to me as a violation of my
rights under the fifth amendment guaranteeing me due process of
law.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness
Mr. Daschbach. And I hold to every part of the fifth amendment
except that part dealing with the presumption of a charge to a grand
jury.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I want to make an announcement for
the record with reference to this witness.
This witness was convicted under the Smith Act, The conviction
was, or the sentence was October 16, 1953. The matter is now on
appeal. I therefore announce for the record that I do not propose to
ask this witness any questions relating to facts or circumstances prior
to October 16, 1953.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. We will take notice of that.
Mr. Arens. Since October 16, 1953, have you been active in the af-
fairs of the Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Daschbach. On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer that
question, first, on the grounds of the first amendment, that my right
to peaceably assemble with anybody is my right; it is not subject
to review by the Congress of the United States of America.
Xo. 2, on the grounds of all sections of the fifth amendment, that
the very giving of the date by the examiner, the statements made here
in regard to the Smith Act, repeatedly, yesterday and this morning,
make it clear that the Smith Act is an issue in this hearing, and, as such,
it infringes my rights under the Constitution, and my right of due
process, and my full right of appeal.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. That question has already been answered.
Mr. Arexs. Thank you, sir.
And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Daschbach. Yes. Surely.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Caughlan. My name is Jolm Caughlan, member of the Seattle
bar. I represented Mr. Daschbach in the proceeding which has already
been referred to, as his counsel. And I am his attorney on the case
whicli is now ))ending on appeal. And 1 repi-esent him in that capac-
ity, deeming that this situation is related to the othei- matters.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Daschbach, do you know your counsel, Mr. Caugh-
lan, there, in any capacity other than in the capacity of attorney and
client?
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Daschbach. In answer to that question, my relations with my
attorney are privileged.
Mr. Arens. Wait just a minute.
Mr. Daschbach. I do not wisli to discuss thorn.
Mr. Arens. I explicitly said do you know him in any capacity other
than tlie capacity of attorney and client.
7044 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. And, to continue, on the basis of the first amend-
ment of the Constitution, I have the full right to associate with any-
body I wish, and it is no business of the Congress of the United States
whom I associate with.
Further on the ground of the fifth amendment, that I am entitled
to full, due process of law in my appeal, I regard this question as an
invasion, an infringement of that right, and I again ask the commit-
tee to withdraw this subpena which is in conflict with the fact that the
judiciary already has matters pertaining to this in its custody.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness now
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. DoTLE. I direct you. Witness, to answer that last question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, that question I have already
answered. My answer is fortified by the Constitution and by the Bill
of Rights.
I do not forswear any of the rights given to me on appeal.
And I again ask the committee to withdraw the subpena which is in
conflict with the fact that this matter is already before the courts, it is
in the courts, and this action, by itself, is an infringement of my rights
of full appeal.
Mr. Arens. I have a report here I want to invite your attention to.
You were convicted in 1953. This report is with reference to a meet-
ing in 1956 — this year — of the Washington Committee for the Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. According to this report that we have, John
Daschbach — that's you — was the first speaker of the evening at this
rally under the auspices of the Washington Committee for the Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. And, according to this report, what he was
speaking about was the repeal of the Smith Act and repeal of the
Walter-McCarran Act.
Would you tell us whether or not you made that little speech before
the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born in
1956 calling for the repeal of the very act under which you were con-
victed ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. Counsel has declined to give me the statement. I
presume, therefore, it is a report by some stool pigeon.
Mr. Chairman, I rely upon my rights not only under the first amend-
ment of the Federal Constitution but my right as a citizen of the State
of Washington which entered into a compact with the United States
Government in 1889 by which the State of Washington guaranteed
it would never enact a piece of legislation repugnant to the Constitu-
tion of the United States or the principles of the Declaration of In-
dependence.
Following that, in the constitution of the State of Washington,
they declared that the right of petition and of people peaceably to as-
semble for the common good shall never be abridged, shall never be
abridged. I am fully under my rights under the first amendment of
the Constitution of the United States and under the constitution of
the State of Washington to petition the Government for any redress
of grievance I wish.
Mr. Arens. Of course you are. We just want you to tell us about
it. Now you just tell this committee while you are under oath,
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7045
■whether or not you are now a meniljer of a conspiratorial apparatus
designed to destroy the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, to make it crystal clear, I base my
position upon the sovereignty of the people, that Congress has no right
under the first amendment to try and tell people what they should
think
Mr. Arens. We are not trying to do that.
Mr. Daschbach. What they should talk about or whom they should
assemble with.
It is my obligation and duty to defend that, and I am doing it.
Mr. Arens. Have you
Mr. Daschbach. Excuse me. I am not finished. I am not finished,
counsel.
Mr. Arens. I know you are not. Tell this committee while you
are under oath are you a member of the conspiratorial apparatus de-
signed to destroy the Constitution of the United States ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. The answer I was trying to make, Mr. Chairman,
was not completed.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be admonished to answer the question.
Mr. Daschbach. And I would like to ask the Chair also, in view
of the fact that section 1 of the Constitution of the State of Washing-
ton, sir
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. Please proceed in an orderly manner.
You have had your time to make your oration, and I am not going to
grant any more time for those
Mrs. JDaschbach. Mr. Chairman, I am stating constitutional
grounds. I am not making any oration.
Mr. DoTLE. All right. Plead your constitutional grounds. But
we know the Constitution a little bit, too. You don't need to take
2 or 3 or 4 minutes to explain what each section contains. We have
it right here in front of us.
Mr. Daschbach. I rely then upon all the grounds previously stated
plus an additional ground, sir, that article I, section 1 of the Constitu-
tion of the State of Washington says that the Government is set up
with the consent of the governed and is established to protect and
maintain individual rights.
And I should like to ask the chairman to ask the counsel to respect
my individual rights as a citizen of the United States and the State
of Washington.
Mr. Doyle. You make it very difficult for me also as chairman,
Witness, because you are insisting on using this as a forum unneces-
sarily to make speeches. Now please desist in that. It is rather diffi-
cult for us to let you take time for that when we haven't allowed any-
one else. I am not going to do it any more.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, Arens. Now, Mr. Daschbach, I was interested
Mr. Daschbach. Excuse me. I hadn't finished my answer.
Mr. Arens. You have given us enough answer. You invoked
everything, you said, in the Constitution.
853.33 — 57— pt. 1 58
7046 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Daschbach, I was interested in your characterization of some-
one as a stool pigeon. I have here the Communist Daily Worker in
which your name appears in an article by Abner W. Berry. This
article is "On the Way" and it tells all about John Daschbach.
Please look at this article under date of April 1954, and tell this
committee whether or not you are the John Daschbach alluded to, and
whether or not the facts recited in that article are true.
(Docmnent marked "Exhibit No. 660," see appendix, pp. 8267, 8268.)
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I rely upon all the answers I have
already given stating my constitutional grounds, and, in addition to
which, sir, there can be no legislative purpose served by the incoming
Congress by any answer to that question.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to still another meeting.
Recalling that you were convicted in 1953, this meeting was held in
March 1954, in Washington Hall, under the auspices of the Washing-
ton State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, in which it
appears that you gave another oration on the Smith Act and the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act calling for the repeal of those laws and calling for
all the folks to defend the Constitution of the United States and the
Bill of Rights by insisting that the Congress repeal these anti-Com-
munist laws.
Can you tell us whether or not you remember tliat oration you gave
before the Washington State Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born in March of 1954 in Washington Hall here in Seattle?
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I have stated that, as an Ameri-
can citizen and a citizen of the State of Washington, I am protected
in my right to have any opinion I want about any piece of legislation.
If I want to agree with President Eisenhower I can do that ; if I want
to disagree with him, I can do that. The Congress has no power,
because it is forbidden by the first amendment of the Constitution, to
ask me questions about that.
Mr. Arens. Are you going to answer the question now ?
Mr. Doyle. I don't think you have stated your answer fully. If
you intend, in answer to that question, to rely on a constitutional
privilege I don't think the record is clear that you did so.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the meeting on March 6, 1954 at Wash-
ington Hall under the auspices of the Washington State Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born after you were convicted in Oc-
tober of '53?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer, I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Daschbach. As part of the subpena, Mr. Chairman, it states
about certain pains and penalties and
Mr. Dotle. Now
Mr. Daschbach. Excuse me. I would like to answer the question.
I don't know which question you are talking about.
Mr. Arens. We want to know whether or not you attended this
meeting on March 6, 1954, Washington Plall, under the auspices of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. On the advice of counsel, that I am now confronted
by a number of questions, I ask the committee to withdraw all questions
and state one question to me.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7047
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this record now
reflect an order and direction to the witness to answer this question.
Mr. Doyle. There is one question before you, the last question. You
heard it. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Daschbach. Will you state the question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, he is just parrying with us now.
I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered to answer the question.
Mr. ScHERER. He has been ordered. Let's pass to the next one,
Mr. Daschbach. Could I have the record read back.
Mr. Arens. We will go to the next question if you don't want to
answer that one.
The next question is did you attend a meeting on April 15, 1956, in
Seattle under the auspices of the Washington State Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Daschbach. May I answer the question ?
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. I want a little time here. May I
suggest that counsel be advised of the rule that he is supposed to advise
his client with respect to his legal rights and not tell him what to say
in response to a question. I can hear him all the way up here.
Mr. Caughlan. I must object to that. I was trying to do just
that. It seems to me — and I could have been mistaken — that the
witness did not have an opportunity to answer the last question, and
I was confused. He is hard of hearing. I was confused as to what
question was pending, and I advised him to clear the matter up before
going on.
Mr. Daschbach. Is it the position of the Chair that I have one
question before me now, and all the questions are withdrawn ?
Mr. Doyle. No. No question is withdrawn. And you have one
question before you.
Now please answer that.
Mr. Daschbach. It is only this question.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
The question is did you attend this meeting on April 15, 1956, in
Seattle of the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, on the basis, one, of the first
amendment of the Constitution, that Congress has no right to inquire
with whom I may peaceably assemble and petition the Government
for redress of grievances, I decline to answer that question, and also
all other grounds heretofore stated.
Mr. Arens. Maybe you could help us here about a defense com-
mittee. It is tlie Nortliwest Citizens' Defense Committee. A]:>parcnt-
ly, from what you say, it must have been a committee to defend the
Constitution. I say that with tongue in cheek also, obviousl3^
In Juh' 2, 1954, the Connnunist Daily People's AVorld has an article
in which one John Daschbach, announces the formation of a North-
west Citizens Defense Committee, and that it is now a committee of
the Civil Rights Congress for the purpose of soliciting funds to de-
fend those people Avho have been convicted under the Smith Act.
7048 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Look at that article and tell us if, after you were convicted under the
Smith Act, you formed a committee to defend people who were con-
victed under the Smith Act.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 661," see appendix, p. 8268.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Dasciibach. Mr. Chairman, I had the assurance that the mat-
ters relating to the Smith Act were not a part of this proceeding.
Mr. Arens. You had the assurance that we would not ask you any
questions respecting any activities prior to the conviction in October
1953. And this is 1954. Now look at that article and tell this com-
mittee whether or not the facts recited in that article are true.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, this relates to the conduct of my
appeal. It is a matter which is within the jurisdiction of the judiciary
department of the Government. The legislative department of the
Government has no right, absolutely, to interfere and ask me ques-
tions about my appeal.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully ask the order to answer the question.
Mr. Daschbach. Further on the grounds of the first amendment,
that Congress clearly has no right to ask me whom I assemble with to
perfect an appeal, and all other grounds stated hereon.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, so there can
be no ambiguity in the record, that this record now reflect an order
and direction of the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. It is not interfering
with your appeal. Your appeal is perfected, of course. I direct you
to answer the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I clearly stated the constitutional
grounds of my declining to answer that question, and I will add one
more.
Section 3, article I of the State constitution of Washington, that
no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due
process of law.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. You read that before. So if you just refer to
it
Mr. Daschbach. I think it is very important because this is a legis-
lative trial interfering with my judicial appeal.
Mr. Doyle. No ; it is not.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter-
rogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you, counsel.
I think, for tlie benefit of the printed record and our colleagues in
Washington and those that may be here, in view of the witness testi-
mony and other testimony by witnesses identified under oath as Com-
munist or convicted under the Smith Act, I refer to Public Law 637.
83d Congress, known as the Communist Control Act of 1954. This
is what the United States Congress said, very briefly :
The Congrress hereby finds or declares that the Conimunist Party of the
United States, although purportedly a political party, is in fact an instrumental-
ity of a conspiracy to overthrow the Government of the United States. It
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7049
<on.stitutes an authoritarian dictatorship within a republic demanding for
itself the rights and privileges accorded to political parties, but denying to all
others the liberties guaranteed by the Constitution. * * *
Unlike political parties, the Communist Party acknowledges no constitutional
or statutory limitations upon its conduct or upon that of its members.
End of quote.
Then I refer here to the Smith Act, which is well known, and has
been through tliese hearings part of the subject matter of discussion
as to the anti-Communist provisions thereof. Public Law 670, 76th
Congi-ess, and I read three short paragraphs so we can see what we
are getting at :
It shall be unlawful for any person —
(1) to knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise, or teach the duty, neces-
sity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any Government of
the United States by force or violence, or by the assassination of any oflficer of
any such government ;
(2) with the intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any Government
of the United States, to print, publish, edit, issue, circulate, sell, distribute, or
publicly display any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching
the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any
Government in the United States by force or violence ;
(3) to organize or help to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons
who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any Govern-
ment in the United States by force or violence ; or become a member of, or
affiliate with, any such group, society, or assembly of persons, knowing the pur-
poses thereof.
I just wish to state, in closing, that we have plenty of evidence here
and elsewhere that convicted Communists are in control of polic}'' and
finances of the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And that
is wliat Ave are trying to bring out at this hearing.
We have no disagreement with the Communist Party or any other
group. They have the right to petition Congress. Congress recog-
nizes tliat right. It is a constitutional right. But the thing we Ameri-
can Congressmen want to laiOAV — and we believe we are entitled to
know — is when we get a petition in Congress over the names of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born from Seattle,
we are entitled to know the extent to which that Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born in Seattle is controlled by convicted or other
identified Communists because that makes it a Commimist Party com-
mittee instead of a bona fide connnittee for the protection of foreign
born.
If the Communist Party wants to petition Congress it has the con-
stitutional right to do so. But we don't believe that any committee
or any party lias the right to petition Congress secretly and subver-
sively without disclosing their true identity and their true interests.
If Congress has to deal with people in secret without them revealing
their identity and their interest in legislation there is no way in God's
Avorld that we American Congressmen can legislate intelligently or
fairly or soundly. And I am sure any thinking American citizen will
recognize that.
One of the purposes of this hearing is to o^et on the record the ways
and means in which the Communists in the Seattle area control or seek
to control not only the Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born
in Seattle and Portland but the way the Commimist Party seeks to
control the finances of the Seattle Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
7050 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The committee will stand adjourned until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12: 35 p. m., the committee was recessed to be re-
convened at 2 p. m., this same day. Committee members present:
Representatives Doyle, and Scherer. )
AFTERNOON SESSION— FRIDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1956
(The conmiittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess, at
2:25 p. m. Committee members present: Representatives Doyle,
and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order.
Let the record show that of this subcommittee of three, appointed
by Chairman Francis E. Walter of the full committee under Public
Law 601, Representatives Scherer of Ohio, and Doyle of California,
subcommittee chairman, are both personally present, and, therefore,
a legal quorum of the subcommittee.
The committee will please proceed.
Mr. Scherer. Before you proceed, Mr. Chairman, yesterday there
was some criticism of our counsel when he asked a question of one of
the witnesses as to whether he had participated in murder in connec-
tion with Communist Party activities.
I think it is appropriate, Mr. Chairman, that we introduce in the
record the front page of yesterday's Los Angeles Times. I am just
going to read a few lines from that article appearing in the Times.
There are big headlines, as you can see, across the top : "Student
Death Follows Red Design for Murder." Remember this comes from
yesterday's Times in Los Angeles.
The death last April of Sheldon .Joseph Abrams, 25, Socialist agitator at
UCLA, falls into a pattern of at least 6 well-documented Communist assassina-
tions in this country in the last 20 years, the Times was told exclusively yes-
terday.
Techniques varied but the motive v\'as always the same — to silence someone
either in or out of the party who had too much information and no longer was
considered a good risk.
And each assassination — whether undisguised murder or ingenious liquida-
tion passed off as suicide or accident — served the additional purpose of warning
others who knew too much of the fate that awaited them if they talked.
This picture of continuing Communist intrigue was painted for the Times yes-
terday by Richard E. Combs, chief counsel of the State senate committee on
un-American activtities, following a 2-day hearing here into the circumstances
and significance of Abrams' death.
It was Combs' work on the Abrams case — which he tackled a few days after
the student's body was found — that brought public disclosures this week indicat-
ing that the youtii's carbon-monoxide death could not have been accidental.
Spurred by the expert testimony at the hearing, Santa Monica Police Chief
Otto Falkner announced yesterday that investigation of the 8-month-old ease
will be reopened.
And then it goes on at great length to detail the information that
this individual had concerning Communist Party activities over the
past few years, and pointed out that the individual who was killed
had a file that in some instances was greater than that of the FBI deal-
ing with the subject of subversive activities.
(See exhibit No. 646, appendix, pp. 8245-8247.)
Mr. Scherer. I ask that the Avliole article be incorporated in the
record at the end of the testimony of Clayton VanLydegraf.
Mr. DoYi.E. It is so ordered. The first witness, Mr. Arens. Pearl
Castle. Kindly come forward.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7051
Mr, DoTLE. Mrs. Castle, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Castle. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF MES. PEARL CASTLE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES
Mrs. Castle. Mr. Cliaiman, I would like to ask that there be no
pictures, please.
Mr. Doyle. Your request, I am sure, will be acceded to by me and
by the photographers.
You are now under oath.
Mr. iVRENS. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Castle. My name is Pearl Castle. I live in Seattle, and I am
a housewife.
Mr. Aeens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Castle, in response to
a subpena which was served upon 3'^ou by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities?
INIrs. Castle. That is true.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Castle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Sykes. Jay Sykes.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Castle, do you know a lady by the name of Bar-
bara Hartle ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. Casti,e. I refuse to answer that question on the gi'ounds of
the fifth amendment, precisely because it may tend to incriminate
me.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up.
(Mrs. Barbara Hartle arose.)
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Castle, would you kindly look at the lady who is
standing there — Barbara Hartle ?
Yesterday morning Mrs. Hartle swore before this committee that
she knew you as a member of the Communist Party underground
conspiratorial apparatus. Was Mrs. Hartle lying or was she telling
the truth ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Castle. Is that what Mrs. Ilartle said about me ?
]Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. Was she lying or was she telling the
truth?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Castle. I don't think that is what the record shows.
Mr. Arens. What is your recollection of the record then?
Mrs. Castle. I think, if you will have the reporter look it up
Mr. Arens. Just answer this question : Are you a member of the
underground apparatus of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Castle. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Washington State Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. Castle. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
7052 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask the witness : you were in the hearing room
yesterday morning, were you not?
Mrs. Castle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. And you heard Mrs. Hartle name you and testify
about you, did you not?
Mrs. Castle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Doyle. Was her testimony true or false?
Mrs. Castle. What she said about me was that she could not recall
anything about me from her own personal knowledge.
Mr. Doyle. No. I don't recall what she said, but that all she said
that you heard ?
Mrs. Castle. That is all I recall, sir.
Mr. Scherer. My recollection of her testimony was, with reference
to this witness — and I may be in error — that she knew from party
circles rather than from her own knowledge that this witness was a
member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. Oh, I see.
Mr. Scherer. Was the information that Mrs. Hartle got from these
witnesses or these persons correct?
Mrs. Castle. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. No further questions.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, just a moment, please.
Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly come forward. In view of the fact
that you have been excused from your appearance here the first time,
I respectfully suggest, so there will be no question, that you submit
yourself now to an oath.
Would you kindly swear the witness?
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so "help you God, Mrs. Hartle ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I do.
Mr. Doyle. Take the witness chair, please.
TESTIMONY OF BAEBAEA HAETLE
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, during the course of your experience in
the Communist Party did you know the lady who is seated at the
principal witness chair?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a Communist?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a member of the Communist under-
ground ?
Mrs. Hartle. I knew her as a member of the Communist under-
ground from reports of Henry Ruff to the underground State commit-
tee of which I was a member.
Mr. Arens. And did you, before you had the information respect-
ing her assignment to the underground, know her as a person who was
in the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7053
TESTIMONY OF PEARL CASTLE— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, you have just heard the testimony of Mrs.
Hartle, haven't you ?
Mi-s. Castle. Yes, I have heard it.
Mr. Arens. Was she lying or was she telling the truth?
Mrs. Castle. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, Mrs. Hartle, and thank you, ma'am.
The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be Lillian
Eubicz.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mrs. RtJBicz. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN RUBICZ, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, DAVID J. WILLIAMS
Mrs. RuBicz. I would request no television, please.
Mr. Doyle. Your request will be observed, now that you are under
oath.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mrs. RuBicz. I am Lillian Eubicz, 110 Eighth Avenue. I am unem-
ployed.
Mr. Arens. Is that R-u-b-i-t-z ?
Mrs. RuBicz. No. It is c-z.
Mr. Arens. R-u-b-i-c-z ?
Mrs. RuBicz. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs. ?
Mrs. Rdbicz. Mrs.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today, Mrs. Rubicz, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mrs. Rubicz. I am.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Rubicz. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Williams. My name is David J. Williams ; offices in 725 Cen-
tral Building. I am chairman of the civil liberties committee of the
Seattle Bar Association, and I have been assigned by the bar associa-
tion to represent this witness.
Mr. Doyle. We are glad you are here, Mr. Williams.
]\Ir. Arens. Where were you last employed, Mrs. Rubicz ?
Mrs. Rubicz. I was employed for an insurance company.
]\Ir. Arens. How long were you employed in the insurance
company ?
Mrs. Rubicz. Ten months.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was your employment prior to your employ-
ment in the insurance company ?
Mrs. Rubicz. Just doing housework ?
7054 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about your connection with the Wash-
ington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. On March 6, 1954, there was a meeting of the Wash-
ington State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born with
Abner Green as guest of honor, held in Washington Hall ; was there
not?
Mrs. RuBicz. I have no knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend a meeting in March of 1954 as State
secretary of the Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. I never was.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever State secretary of the Washington Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. RuBicz. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever an officer of that organization?
Mrs. RuBicz. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever a member of that organization ?
Mrs. KuBicz. It is not a membership organization.
Mr. Arens. How did you know that ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. R.UBICZ. I will invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question. She has opened the door
and walked right in.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. Witness.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee how you knew that the Washing-
ton State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born is not a
membership organization.
Mrs. RuBicz. Because it has never solicited my membership.
Mr. Arens. How do you know it has never solicited your member-
ship?
Mrs. RuBicz. Well
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. I should know, shouldn't I ?
Mr. Arens. That is what I want you to tell us, how you know
about this.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. Well, I should know, shouldn't I ?
Mr. Arens. Why should you know ?
Mrs. RuBicz. Well, I am not a dumb animal.
Mr. Arens. Well, tell us why you should know about the nature of
the affiliations of people with the Washington State Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I will make that an instruction. Witness. But may I
ask this question because I didn't hear part of your answer :
Do you mean that you were never solicited to join that committee
as a member, and that is how you know that it is not a membership
organization ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7055
Mrs. RuBicz. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. Well, you heard my instruction to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. Repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. The question is :
How did you know that the AVashmgton State Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born is not a membership organization?
You have made that assertion. I want you to tell us why, how you
know.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. Well, I was never solicited for any membership.
There are no membership cards. I was never solicited for member-
ship.
Mr. Arens. Well, how do you know that the organization does not
have members just because you weren't solicited for membership?
(The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on that.
]\rr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
]Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, AVitness.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]SIrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Clark Harper,
H-a-r-p-e-r?
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Why?
{ The witness confers with her counsel.)
]Mrs. RuBicz. I can invoke —
I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Why?
]\Irs. RuBicz. I invoke — • For the same reasons.
]Mrs. Arens. Do you honestly feel now, if you told this committee
whetlier or not you know Clark Harper you would be supplying in-
formation that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that last question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. Witness.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]Mrs. RuBicz. No.
Mr. Arens. Then, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness
be admonished to answer the question.
Mrs. RuBicz. I didn't understand the question.
Mr. Arens. We will start over again then. Do you know Clark
Harper?
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why do you invoke the fifth amendment with reference
to Clark Harper?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you told this committee whether or
not you know Clark Harper you would be supplying information
that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
7056 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. Clark Harper has advised this committee
that he knew you as a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he
lying to us or was he telling the truth ?
( The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the staff of the Wash-
ington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Are you at the moment a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with her counsel. )
Mrs. EuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, any questions?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Witness, I have one question, please.
When you answered counsel that you knew that you had never
been solicited for membership in the Washington Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born, may I ask you whether or not you were
ever solicited for funds, money to pay part of the costs of the Com-
rnittee for the Protection of Foreign Born even though they didn't
give you a card or invite j'ou to be a member? Did you give financial
support ?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. RuBicz, No.
Mr. Doyle. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. John Caughlan, kindly come forward.
C-a-u-g-h-1-a-n .
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Caughlan, please, do you solemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you,
God?
Mr. Caughlan. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Have the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN CAUGHLAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
PHILIP L. BURTON
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mr. Caughlan. My name is John Caughlan. I live in Seattle.
I don't care to give my occupation. I will give you the reasons if
I ma3% please.
I believe that the inquiry which this committee is making has no
legislative function whatsoever. In that connection, in giving you
my reasons for not caring to answer the question, I call your attention
to the following from the New York Times of 11-14-56, November
14
Mr. Scherer. I object to anything that appeared in the New York
Times.
Mr. Caughlin. May I complete my answer ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX 7057
Mr. ScHERER. As a reason for refusal to answer.
Mr. DoTLE. Clearly, counsel, you know the rules of the committee.
And, of course, an article in the newspaper is not any sufficient reason
for vou. We want you to cooperate and not, please, take the time
to-^-
Mr. Caughlan. May I make this suo^gestion then, that this article
of the New York Times — I notice that the committee has several times
asked that such things be incorporated as a part of the record — that
this article from the New York Times of November 14, 1956, which
gives as a general statement of the committee that its purpose is to col-
lect data for a counterattack
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness now be admonished
to answer the question.
What is your occupation ?
Mr. Caughlan, That this
Mr. DoTLE. Please, Attorney Caughlin. Give us your cooperation.
And you are welcome to plead your constitutional privilege always,
of course, in good faith.
Mr. Caughlan. I want to. I only want to identify the article so
tliat it may be incorporated by reference into the record as indicated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered to forthwith answer the question as to what his occupation is.
Mr. Caughlan. Does the chairman so direct ?
Mr. DoTLE. Yes, please.
Mr. Caughlan. I am an attorney.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities ?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Caughlan. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Burton. My name is Philip L. Burton. I am a Seattle attor-
ney.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born, Mr. Caughlan ?
Mr. Caughlan. I was born in Missouri.
Mr. Arens. Where in Missouri ?
Mr. Caughlan. In Nevada.
Mr. Arens. And when ?
Mr. Caughlan. In 1909.
]\Ir. Arens. Give us a word, please, about your education, where
were you educated.
Mr. Caughlan. Without waiving the same objection I previously
made, but, instead of asserting it, and under protest, I will tell you
tliat I was educated in grade school, high school and college and in
law scliool.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Caughlan. University of Washington, and Yale.
Mr. Arens. And where did you go to law school ?
Mr. Caughlan. Harvard Law School.
Mr. Arens. When did you graduate from Harvard?
Mr. Caughlan. 1935.
7058 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. And then pick up the thread of your life, if you please,
sir, right there, and tell us what was your first occupation and where
after your graduation from law school.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. With the same general objection I previously made,
I will state that ever since that time I have been engaged in the prac-
tice of law.
Mr. Arens. And in what courts are you admitted to practice law ?
Mr. Caughl^n. In the Supreme Court of the State of Washington,
United States Supreme Court, and the Federal courts of this area.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in private practice ever since
you had your admission to the bar? Or have you been employed by
a corporation or firm or organization ?
Mr. Caughlan. With the same general objection, I will state that
I have been, for the most part, engaged in private practice.
Mr. Arens. What is the part that isn't the most part?
Mr. Caughlan. I was deputy prosecuting attorney for King
County for a period of time.
Mr. Arens. Is that the county in which we are presently sitting?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes, it is.
Mr. Arens. And when were you deputy prosecuting attorney here
in King County?
Mr. Caughlan. I honestly don't recall the exact dates, but it was in
the late thirties or early forties.
Mr. Arens. Is that an elective position here or is that an appoin-
tive position by the prosecuting attorney himself ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is an appointive position.
Mr. Arens. When did you actually first take your oath as an attor-
ney to be admitted to practice law, and in what court ?
Mr. Caughlan. In 1935 or 1936. I can't recall exactly.
Mr. Arens. That was in the State court here ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is right.
Mr. Arens. At the time that you took that oath did you, in effect,
swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic ?
Mr. Caughlan. I did.
Mr. Arens. And at the time you took that oath were you a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Caughlan. I am going to decline to give any answers whatso-
ever concerning any past connection with the Communist Party for
reasons which were fully set out and which I will refer to in just a
moment, calling your attention to the fact that I was tried in this city
in 1948 on the charge that I had made a false statement in stating that
I was not and never had been a member of the Communist Party, and
that, after a full and fair trial before a Federal judge and jury, I was
acquitted of that charge.
I also, in connection with any statements about that
I mean the purpose of this committee is to embarrass
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle hadn't testified in 1948.
Mr. Caughlan. Just a moment. I hadn't finished my answer, sir.
Tliat in connection with that answer I was called before this same
committee in 1954 and asked substantially the same question. My
testimony at that time appears in a document published by this com-
mittee, part VIII, Seattle Investigation of Communist Activities,.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7059
Pacific Northwest Area, June 19, 1954, commencing on page 6565 and
continuing to page 6578.
And I incorporate as my answer to the question at this time each
and every statement that was made in connection with the answer to
that question at that time, as though the same were fully set forth here.
And I will read it to you if you want, but I don't think anybody
wants it.
]Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this witness
be admonished to forthwith answer the question as to whether or not
he was a member of the Communist Party when he was admitted to
practice law in 1935.
IMr. Caughlan. I have given my answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. Is that the only
answer you want to give?
]Mr. Caughlin. I have given my answer. ISIy reasons set forth for
declining to ansAver are precisely the same as those I gave in answer to
the same question in 1954. That is mv answer.
Mr. Doyle. Do you now plead your constitutional privilege ?
Mr. Caitghlax. This is all fully set forth in my testimony on the
pages that I referred to of the record. I incorporate that, in full,
here. It is there. You gentlemen know what it is.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
took your oath and became a lawyer in this State in 1935 ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Cai ghlan. I invoke in that testimony the privileges which I
felt that I had then and I feel I have now. It is the same question.
I invoke each and every one of those privileges again. And that is my
answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest he be ordered to
answer that question without telling us to read another book.
Mr. DoYi.E. This is 2 years later. It may be that this question is
asked you at this time with something else m mind. We may know
or we may not know or may believe we know.
I think we are entitled to ask you the question directly, Attorney.
IVIr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you took the oath as a
lawyer?
Mr. Caughlan. I have answered that question by stating the rea-
sons that I am declining to answer and giving you the specific and
basic grounds.
Now, if you want me to, I will now read, so there can be no misunder-
standing, my full statement at that time. I would like to incorporate
it in the record.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this witness
be admonished to ansAver this question.
]\fr. ScHERER. Direct him to get the record clear.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apjjrehend that if you gaA'e us a truth-
ful and full answer as to wliether or not you were a member of the
Communist Pai'ty when you took the oath as a lawyer you would be
supplying information that might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
7060 COMMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Caughlajst. I apprehend that this committee would do every-
thing in its power to get me in trouble.
And, so, the answer is I certainly do apprehend that you would en-
deavor in every way, if I answer that question, to bring forth the same
type of witnesses that were brought before this jury, and maybe others
that you have got in your control at the present time, and attempt the
same thing all over again. So I certainly apprehend.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you please stand up?
(Mrs. Barbara Hartle arose.)
TESTIMONY OF BARBARA HARTLE— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, you have been sworn just a few moments
Do you see this man sitting in the witness chair ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. When you were in the Communist Party did you know
him as a Communist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you swear now, to a certainty, that John Caughlan,
sitting in the witness chair, was a member of the Communist conspira-
torial apparatus?
Mrs. Hartle. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN CAUGHLAN— Resumed
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Caughlan, you have heard the testimony of
Mrs. Hartle ; have you not ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is not testimony. That is a hearsay state-
ment. She is not under oath and she is not subject — she is under
oath but not subject to cross-examination.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness now
be admonished to answer this question : Was she lying or was she tell-
ing the truth when she was under oath ?
Mr. Caughlan. So far as I am concerned, in my opinion, the truth
is not in that witness. I have cross-examined her at length. I have
cross-examined her at length, and I would be glad to do so again if this
committee wishes to give me the privilege.
Mr. Arens. While you are under oath tell this committee was she
lying or telling the truth when she said she knew you as a Communist ?
Just answer that simple question while you are under oath.
( The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Caughlan. I invoke each and every one of the grounds I have
already invoked.
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. The record is not clear.
I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question because he
has not invoked the privilege of the fifth amendment. He has re-
ferred to his previous testimony. He has been very clever about it.
Let's get the record straight.
Mr. Doyle. May I make it clear, Witness, we are not accepting your
reference to the answers you gave in any other hearing or any other
occasion as sufficient answer to that question. And, therefore, I in-
struct you to answer that last question.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7061
Mr. Caughlan. This committee is fully aware of the decision of
the United States Supreme Court in Quinn against the United States.
j\Ir. ScHERER. Let's go to the next question.
Mr. Caughlan. In which a witness before this committee did pre-
cisely what I am doing and incorporated each and every part of testi-
mony taken before the committee.
I do the same here, and I stand on that, and I decline for the reasons
previously given to answer the question of this committee other than to
stand on the grounds that I have already stated.
Mr. Arens. The record is clear on your position and the admonition
on the record.
Mr. Scherer. Just one minute. I have a question here.
Witness, _you say you were acquitted on the charge of being a
Communist. Did you want to leave that impression here with mis
committee? (The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I was charged, sir, with having made a false state-
ment under oath when I testifiecl in the United States district court
that I was not — and this was long after 1935 — that I was not and never
had been a member of the Connnunist Party. That charge was fully
aired at that time, and the verdict of the jury and the judgment of
the court stands on that. And I do not intend to open it up. For
this committee
Mr. Arens. You just have opened it up.
Mr. Caughlan. To bring out Mrs. Hartle or some other blunted
tool and try the thing all over again
Mr. Scherer. Just one more question.
The fact is, Witness, that that case was decided on the fact that
the question asked you was not material, and there was no finding
as to whether or not you lied. It was merely decided by the court
in that case that the question asked you, namely, whether you were a
member of the Communist Party, was not material. Isn't that a fact?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I would say it wasn't a fact.
Mr. Arens. Now that you have opened this question up with this
little proceeding, at the time of the proceeding were you a Communist ?
Mr. Caughlan. I have answered the question by declining to
answer.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Caughlan. By declining to answer it. I stand on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. The question in your trial was not decided as to
whether you had lied or not. Wasn't it decided on the basis that the
question asked you was not material ? Isn't that a fact ?
Mr. Caughlan. Well, I can't see, sir, how you are serving any legis-
lative purpose whatsoever by exploring the details of legal issues in
this trial. And I don't believe you are. I think you are trying to
bait me into some kind of an answer.
Mr. Scherer. You raised it.
Mr. Caughlan. No. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
You raised the question about your trial. We didn't raise it. You
raisecl it. You said you had been acquitted of being a Communist,
acquitted of the charge of perjury. You raised that question. I didn't.
85333— 57— pt. 1 59
7062 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
I just wanted to clarify this record on what actually happened
in that case. They never cleared you of being a Communist, or never
decided the issue as to whether you lied or not.
Mr. Caughlan. I think you are mistaken, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. Caughlan. But that is your opinion, and I have my opinion.
Mr. ScHERER. We will let the record stand.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man, other than in the capacity of
attorney and client, by the name of John Daschbach?
Mr. Caughlan. John Daschbach is a client of mine.
Mr. Arens. I say do you know him in any capacity other than the
capacity of attorney and client?
Mr. Caughlan. I understood your question, and I am going to
answer it. I know Mr. Daschbach, and he is and has been for a long
time a client of mine.
My communications with him, so far as I recall, have been in
that relationship of attorney and client. But if there have been any
occasions, as implied by your questions that there have been, in which
I have had any contact with him other than in that relationship — if,
and I don't believe there are, but there may be — if there are, then I
invoke, in regard to any relationship that may exist or may have
existed between him and me, all the privileges that I am afforded under
the first amendment, the fifth amendment, the ninth and tenth amend-
ments, and I don't believe your inquiry has any conceivable legislative
basis.
Mr. Arens. Now let's see if we can refresh your recollection a
little bit. You said a few moments ago you didn't believe you had
been associated with him except as attorney and client.
On March 6, 1954, there was a meeting at the Washington Hall
sponsored by the Washington State Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born, all in honor of Abner Green, executive secretary
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Do you remember that occasion ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I don't specifically, but I wouldn't doubt there
has been such an occasion.
Mr. Arens. Were you in attendance at that session ?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't recall, but I may well have been.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in attendance at some sessions or
dinner meetings of the Washington Committee for the Protection of
Foreign Born here in Seattle ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I will have to ask you to repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in attendance at a session of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born in March
1954, in which Abner Green was the guest of honor ?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't recall being at that particular session, but I
may well have been at a meeting called by the Washington Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born for the purpose of speaking and
discussing certain matters that I thought might be of interest to
the public or to the committee.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollecion of more than one such
occasion ?
Mr. Caughlan. Oh, I think so.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7063
Mr. Arens. And how many do you recall having attended and
spoken in ?
Mr. Caughlan. I have no idea.
Mr. Arens. Well, would you have attended as many as six?
Mr. Caughlan. Possibly.
Mr. Arens. Would you have attended as many as 12 ?
Mr. Caughlan. I very seriously doubt it.
Mr. Arens. Well, would you have attended as many as eight?
Mr. Caughlan. I have no recollection. And if you would say
three-dozen I can't help you out any more than I am.
Mr. Arens. Could you have attended more than one, do you believe?
Mr. Caughlan. If I am invited to express my views or opinions
on any matter that is of interest to me, and I want to do it, I do it.
Mr. Arens. Of course, you do. And we want you to do that.
Mr. Caughlan. I doubt that.
Mr. Arens. And you just tell us if you recall attending more
than one session of the Washington State Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Caughlan. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Caughlan. I said my recollection is I have attended several
meetings. And they may well have been
Mr. Arens. Of what organization ?
Mr. Caughlan. Well have been under the sponsorship of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, in which
I have spoken on various cases involving the foreign born which I
have handled
Mr. Arens. And have you recalled
Mr. Caughlan. Just a moment.
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead.
Mr. Caughlan. ^\^iich I have handled.
And I have no doubt that I have expressed my vieAvs at those meet-
ings on various asjiects of legislation relating to the foreign born.
If I speak publicl}' on that subject I very frequently do that.
Mv. Arexs. And did you speak publicly on this subject in the
course of the last year ?
Mr. Caughlan. Oh, I feel quite confident I liave.
Mr. Arens. And did j^ou, in the course of the last year, speak be-
fore the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
INIr. Caughlan. I think so.
Mr. Arens. How many times did you speak before the Washington
Committee for Pi-otection of Foreign Born in the course of the last
year.
Mr. Caughlan. Very ie\x.
Mr. Arens. AYo\ikl you say you si)oke moie t lian once ?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't think that is any of your business.
Mr. Arkns. Mr. Chairman, J resi->ectfully suggest tlie witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. DovLK. I so direct you. Witness. I tliink it is a reasonable
(juestion.
Mr. CaihmilAxN. Well, my public expression of my views on legal
cases or on tlie wisdom oi- unwisdom of |)en(ling legislation can't pos-
sibly be of any assistance to anybody in Congress or anywhere else.
7064 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Akens. Do you think it might be of interest to the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities to know what the Communists are
doing to subvert the anti-Communist legislation ? Do you think that
might be of some conceivable interest to this committee ?
(The witness confere with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I really wouldn't know.
Mr. Akens. I have a report here about one of your speeches in which
the subject matter was a little different from that which you have
been telling us about.
It is a meeting, March 12, 1955, under the auspices of the Wash-
ington State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, in which
you made a little speech on paid informers. Do you recall that speech ?
(The witness confei-s with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you remember the speech you made on paid inform-
ers before the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Caughlan. Not offhand. But I may well have made such a
speech.
Mr. Arens. And do you remember any of these sessions in which
the principal speaker was Abner Green ?
Mr. Caughlan. I think I have spoken at places where Abner Green
has spoken.
Mr. Arens. And where was that? Where is your recollection ?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Arens. Would that be in Seattle ?
Mr. Caughlan. Most likely.
Mr. Arens. And under the auspices of what organization do you
recall speaking on the platform with Abner Green ?
Mr. Caughlan. No, I have no recollection. But if you have some
information that it was under the auspices of the Washington com-
mittee, it probably was.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green ?
Mr. Caughlan. I certainly do.
Mr. Arens. How long have you know him ?
Mr. Caughlan. Oh, a number of years. I can't say exactly how
long. I have the highest respect for the gentleman.
Mr. Arens. Do you know he has been identified repeatedly as a
hard-core agent of the international Communist conspiracy by wit-
nesses under oath who Avere not paid informers?
Mr. Caughlan. I have heard a^ou make that assertion a few times,
but I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Arens. You do not know that Abner Green is a Communist?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. No.
Mr. Arens. Do you know with what organization he is comiected?
Mr. Caughlan. My understanding he is connected with the Amer-
ican Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. And in what capacity is he connected with the American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Caughlan. I think he is executive director or something like
that. I think he is one of the best-informed people in the United
States on the operation of the Walter-McCarran Act and, in particu-
lar, on the various court tests and court proceedings which have in-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7065
volved that act and which have involved issues arising under that and
the Internal Security Act, and other matters involving and relating
to the foreign born.
Mr. Arens. The Smith Act?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't know anything about his knowledge of the
Smith Act. I suppose he has it. He probably does.
Mr. Arens. Are there any particular provisions of the Immigration
and Nationality Act on which he has specialized?
Mr, Caughlan. Well, I have no knowledge as to what he specialized
in. His position is one that I would think would bring him into a
good deal of contact with all phases of that act. and I daresay he is
pretty familiar with all of them.
Mr. Arens. How many times, to your knowledge, in the course of
the last 2 or 3 years has Abner Green been in this community ?
Mr. Cafghlan. I really couldn't say. I think I probably talked
to My. Green 3 or 4 times.
Mr. Arens. In the course of what period of time ?
Mr. Caughlan. If you are talking about the last 2 years, say twice.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Caughlan. Say once each year. Maybe it was more than that;
I don't know.
Mr. Arens. You mean you talked with him on a platform or engaged
in personal conversation ?
]Mr. Caughlan. Xo, no. I mean engaged in conversation with Mr.
Green in regard to matters in which he might give me valuable
information.
Mr. Arens. That would be on matters relating to people who were
up for deportation ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And with what type of people does he specialize?
Mr. Caughlan. I believe Mr. Green
I beg your pardon. Excuse me just a moment.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I believe Mr. Green's interest in the foreign born
and in aliens and naturalized citizens of foreign birth is general. I
don't think there is — I don't think he has any specialty. He may
have, but I don't know it. My interest in discussion with him has
certainly been of a general character.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of his relationship to the officers of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. No, I really don't.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harriet Baron ^
Mr. Caughlan. No, I don't believe I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Pettis Perry !'
Mr. Caughlan. No, I don't believe I do.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Can you help us? Who are the officers of the AVashing-
ton State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Caughlan. I am afraid I can't
Mr. Arens. You have been around to some of their meetings.
Mr. (^Ai'GHLAN. I am afraid I can't discuss that with you. My
knowledge of any dealings of the organization involve an attorney-
client relationship.
7066 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
And I will say this, that, if you are really interested in knowing it,
I think it is a matter of public record.
I think it has been referred to here before the committee in con-
nection with the pleadings that were filed in the United States dis-
trict court.
Mr. ScHERER. Then that isn't confidential on your part.
Mr. Caughlan. What has been told to me is confidential. What
is in the public record isn't.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. He asked you whether you know who
the officers are.
Mr. Arens. Who is the president?
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute now, counsel.
And iust 2 days ago you were the attorney
By the way, did you draw that petition that was filed in the Fed-
eral court 2 days ago ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I can tell you what appears in that file. I can't
tell you anything more. Anything more would involve
Mr. Scherer. That is what I was driving at. It is no longer a
confidential relationship.
Mr. Caughlan. Incidentally, there are a half dozen questions that
have been fired at me here.
Mr. Scherer. No, there are not. There are no questions that have
been fired at you now. I am asking you some questions.
Mr. Caughlan. Is the counsel's question withdrawn then?
Mr. Arens. No.
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Caughlan. Then which one am I supposed to answer?
Mr. Scherer. The first one.
Mr. Caughlan. Could I ask the reporter, please, to read back the
question which I am supposed to answer.
Mr. Scherer. Let's just go right from here on.
My question is : Did you draft the complaint that was filed by the
officers of the Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born that
was filed 2 days ago against this committee ?
Mr. Caughlan. I assisted in drafting it along with cocounsel.
Mr. Scherer. Who were the other cocounsel ?
Mr. Caughlan. Chief counsel was Mr. Burton.
Mr. Scherer. That is your counsel seated there ?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes. That is Mr. Burton right here.
Mr. Jay Sykes. And then, appearing pro hac vice, h-a-c v-i-c-e, for
the American Civil Liberties Union, were Paul D. Jackson and Francis
Hoague. And then there were others who assisted with advice who
I don't think appeared of record.
Mr. Scherer. In that petition, which was partially prepared by
you, you specifically state that the plaintiffs in that action were mem-
bers of the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born.
How can you claim that that is a confidential relationship between
attorne}'^ and client?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't. I said anything that is in that complaint
I can tell you ; anything further than that I can't.
Mr. Scherer. You refused to answer the question when Mr. Arens
asked you that question. Who are the officers?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7067
Mr. Caughlan. I am unaware of refusing^ to answer any question.
If you will please call my attention to it I will endeavor to answer
it right now.
Mr. ScHERER. Who are the officers of the Committee for the Pi'o-
tection of Foreion Born ?
Mr. Caughlax. According to the complaint
Mr. ScHERER. Not according to the complaint; according to your
knowledge.
Mr. Caughlan. According to information which I am able to give
you and which is alleged in the complaint, the chairman is Reverend
John W. Caughlan.
Mr. SciiERER. That is your father ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is correct. The executive secretary is Marion
Kinney.
The other — just a moment. I will refresh my recollection.
(The witness refers to document.)
Mr. Caughlan. Louise Hatten, Cecelia Corr, and Clara Paulson.
Mr. ScHERER. How many of those persons, to your certain knowl-
edge, are members of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Caughlan. Any information that I might have other than ap-
pears in this complaint — and I am not suggesting in my answer that,
to my knowledge, any of these people are — but any information I
might have concerning their affiliations or political views or anything
of that sort are based entirely upon confidential communications which
I cannot discuss with the committee.
Mr. ScHERER. Did these plaintiffs whom you represent confidentally
advise you that Mr. Doyle and I were residents of King County, Wash.,
the State of Washington ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. No.
I tliink we ought to read the entire paragraph of that complaint so
we will have clearly before us what the allegation is.
Mr. ScHERER. I am not asking you to read it. I am asking you
to advise us and to answer the question.
Mr. Caughlan. Obviously I wouldn't be in a position to state to
you what my clients advise in confidence. And you, as an attorney,
are fully aware of that. But I think, if you will read the full
allegation of the complaint
Mr. ScHERER. I read it.
Mr. Caughlin. And I might go ahead and add that is the opinion
of counsel.
Mr. ScHERER. Just answer the question whether they told you that
we were residents of the State of Washington. That is the question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. AVell, anything that my clients (old me, as I say,
is something that is in the nature of confidential coiiunmiicat ion.
But I was going to add that it is the legal opinion of counsel pre-
paring this case that, for the purposes of tliis action and of this hear-
ing— because it is our view that this committee is completel}' exceeding
any pretense of a legislative function in being here — that, for that
reason, the committee can't really represent the Congress of the United
States, and that, for the purposes of this hearing, they are residents
7068 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
of the State of Washington, here for the purpose of conducting this
hearing.
Mr. ScHERER. What hiw school did you say you graduated from ?
Mr. Caughlan. I have ah-eady answered that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Did they teach you that at Harvard? Any lawyer
in this room would know differently than that.
Mr. Caughlan. That isn't just my opinion.
Mr. ScHERER. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens Now in this complaint, which was filed partially at your
instigation or at least by you as one of the counsel, assertion is made
that the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born
solicits and receives funds. That is in the complaint, is it not ?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes, it is.
Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting the amounts of
the funds that the Washington Committee for the Protection of For-
eign Born has solicited and has received from the people of this area?
Mr. Caughlan. I am not at liberty to disclose any information
that I may have about that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have such information?
Mr. Caughlan. I am not at liberty to disclose that. Anything
that I may have in regard to those matters are matters that are con-
fidential between my client and me. And I am simply not in a posi-
tion to discuss that with tliis committee at all.
Mr. Arens. Were you a candidate for the State legislature in 1948?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I have been a candidate three times. It might
be — unsuccessfully, I might add.
It may be that that was one of the dates. I have forgotten.
Mr. Arens. And for what offices have you been a candidate?
Mr. Caughlan. It has always been, my candidacy for public office
has always been for the State legislature.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time in your candidacy make known to
the citizenry here in this community your affiliation with any organiza-
tion which is controlled by a foreign power ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. My counsel advises me that that is a loaded and
leading question.
Mr. Arens. We will back up and start over. You didn't run for
public office on the Communist Party slate, did you ?
Mr. Caughlan. I certainly did not.
Mr. Arens. And when you ran for public office on the slate of one of
the major political parties were you at that time, in truth and in fact,
a member of another organization which frequently bears the label
of a political party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I was a candidate on the Democratic Party ticket.
Mr. Arens. Were you at the time you were candidate on the Demo-
cratic Party ticket, at that very time, a member of another organiza-
tion which bears the label of a political party ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. Well, my counsel advises me that wliat you are
trying to do here is to work out something so you can repeat this Com-
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7069
muiiist question that I have already said I would decline to answer,
having given you the reasons. So I have no further comment to make
on that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if that is
the reason, and unless he invokes the fifth amendment, he be ordered
and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. Witness.
Mr. Caughlan. What is the question ?
Mr. Arens. The question is :
While you were holding yourself forth as a candidate on the Demo-
cratic ticket were you i member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caugiilan. That is what I thought you were getting at, al-
though you didn't say that before.
Mr. Arens. Of course.
Mr. Caughlix. I said I thought that is what you are getting at.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, please.
Mr. Caughlan. The answer to that is the same as when you asked
the question directly. By going around the bush you are asking
it directly. I am not going to — it won't assist us any. 1 am not going
to answer that question for the reasons that I have already fully stated
when the question was asked me directly before.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness again to answer that question.
Mr. Caughlan. I stand on my previous answc^r, including the de-
tailed statement of this matter which I have referred to and which
I am prepared to quote in full, namely, the invocation of the various
privileges that I made in connection with my 1948 testimony — 1954
testimony, which included the first, fifth, tenth and ninth amend-
ments and various other things, and particularly
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. Caughlan. Well, I am not, never have been a member of any
conspiracy. But
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment a member of the Comuumist
Party?
Mr. Caughlan. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is the same (question all over again. I told
you I wasn't going to
Mr. Arens. Well, we will go at it the hard way.
Mr. Caughlan. If you ask me was L a member yesterday, the day
before or anything else
Mr. Arens. We are going down the line.
Mr. Caughlin. My answer is the same. I have already indicated
1 will not, for the reasons, fully stated
Mr. Arens. AVe understand. Let's do it so we get the record
straiglit, as the hiwyers say. Are you a member of the Communist
Party today ?
Mr. Caughlan. I have already answered the question.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday ?
Mr. Caughlan. The same answer I have already given. I won't dis-
cuss that in any manner whatsoever,
s.-):;:!:;— 57— pt. 1 60
7070 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. ScHERER, I ask that you direct the witness to answer counsel's
question whether he was a member of the party yesterday.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer.
Mr. Caughlan. On the grounds previously stated I decline to
answer.
Mr. Arens. Have you resigned technical membership in the Com-
munist Party so that you could take an oath today and swear that you
are not today a technical member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Caughlan. I suppose that appears to be a very clever ques-
tion, but it is the same one. Any way you put it, it is going to be the
the same one. My answer is going to be the same.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. DoYLE. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Caughlan. My answer is I decline to answer on each and all
the grounds previously stated. My answer will be that no matter
how many different ways you ask me.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?
Mr. Caughlan. Of course not.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communict Party discipline yester-
day?
Mr. Caughlan. I have never been under anybody's discipline. I
act on my own basis, of my own judgment, and always have.
But if this is a roundabout way of going back into this question of
whether I ever was a member of the Communist
Mr. Arens. You want to talk about everything under the sun except
communism. Have you been under Communist Party discipline at
any time since you were served with a supena to appear before this
committee ?
Mr. Caughlin. I haven't answered your question. I said that I
have never been under anybody's discipline except my own.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. And my father's when I was a youngster.
But if this is a means of asking me whether I was in some past time
a member of the Communist Party, on all the grounds previously
stated I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
]\Ir. Caughlan. For the reasons stated already.
Mr. D0YI.E. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. No questions, Mr. Caughlan.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Mil-
ford A. Sutherland, S-u-t-h-e-r-1-a-n-d. M-i-1-f-o-r-d.
Mr. Doyle. 1 think before that witness is sworn, if you will pardon
me a minute, the case of Quinn versus United States of America was
referred to, and I now have the full decision here.
I want to read one paragraph as long as the last witness referred to
this case, page 5 thereof :
There can be no doubt as to the power of Congress, by itself or through its
committees, to investigate matters and conditions relating to contemplated legis-
lation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is in-
deed coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investigate —
including, of course, the authority to compel testimony, either through its own
processes or through judicial trial — Congress could be seriously handicapped in
its efforts to exercise its constitutional functions wisely and effectively.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7071
End of quote.
Now, Witness and Counsel, please.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothmg
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Sutherland. I do.
Mr. DoTLE. Please take a seat.
TESTIMONY OF MILFOED A. SUTHERLAND, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, DAVID 0. HAMLIN
Mr. Sutherland. I would like to request that there be no cameras
and pictures during the interrogation, without any disrespect to the
press.
Mr. DoTLE. The press is always very cooperative, and they heard
your request.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Sutherland. My name is Milford Sutherland. M-i-1-f-o-r-d
S-u-t-h-e-r-1-a-n-d. My address is 702 North Fourtn in Tacoma,
Wash. And, as to the last part of that question, I decline to answer
for the following reasons :
Now, in the first place, I think that this is not a genuine hearing
directed at legislation, toward a proper legislative purpose because
the committee has already come to its conclusions as indicated and
enumerated in the opening remarks of the committee chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Now, Witness, it so happens that a Federal judge,
yesterday, made a finding in court in this very case, according to the
newspapers, that this committee was here on a legal purpose.
So don't take the time, please, of the committee now in arguing
that it is not here on a legal purpose. If you are going to plead your
constitutional privilege in good faith, then do it. But don't try to
make this hearing a forum, please. We don't have time for that. Just
go ahead and plead your constitutional privilege, whatever it is.
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, my constitutional privilege is, in the first
l^lace, that this committee is transgressing the first amendment. And
it is transgressing the rights of the people to influence legislation and
Congress. And, as such, I claim the privilege of the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Would you hesitate there. Have we transgressed any
of vour activities undertaking to influence legislation? Could you
telfusthat?
Mr. Sutherland. There is certainly the very
(The witness confei*s with his counsel. )
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead. You can consult your counsel, and
counsel is not to lead you there.
Tell us, have we transgressed on any of your activities, legislative-
wise ?
Mr. Sutherland. On advice of counsel, this appears to be a leading
question, and I therefore claim the privilege of the
Mr. Arens. There is no rehitionship between a leading question ami
the privilege. You know that.
Mr. Sutherland. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment in
this regard. But, further, I would like to
7072 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Then we have transgressed on activities of yours which,
if you told us about them, would lead to criminal prosecution ; is that
right? ^. .
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, I would like to — I was stating my objections
to a previous question.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead. Your objections now are to what
your occupation is.
Mr. Sutherland. And I would like to continue.
Mr. Arens. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Sutherland. Now I believe that my rights under the fifth
amendment are involved here both with respect to due process of law
and also with respect to the rights not to testify against myself.
I believe, further, that the eighth amendment is involved in this case
because I think that today in America the activities and nature of this
committee constitute a form of cruel and unusual punishment to a
large number of citizens.
Mr. Scherer. I would love to hear this.
Mr. Doyle. I will not permit you to attack the committee that way.
It is untrue. It is not a defense to the question. It is not an answer
to the question. And I am not going to permit you to give that tirade
in this hearing on that sort of bunkum. Go ahead and plead your
constitutional privileges.
Mr. Sutherland. I am in the process of it. I am not attacking
the committee.
Mr. Doyle. You are, and I won't permit you.
Mr. Sutherland. I am speaking of the results of these hearings.
Mr. Doyle. You might just as well know that, Witness. You are
through making a platform of this committee. Plead your defenses
if you want to.
Mr. Sutherland. I am further calling upon my rights and the
rights of the American people under the ninth amendment of the
Constitution which says, in effect, that all powers which are not dele-
gated to Congress remain with the people. Or — I wish to correct
myself.
The ninth amendment says that, in effect, the Bill of Rights, in list-
ing a number of rights for the American people, does not, by that
means, limit further rights or deny further rights of the people.
And it is the 10th amendment which states, as I had earlier said,
that these powers so enumerated and not specifically given to Congress
remain with the people.
And I think it is appropriate in this connection to note that tomor-
row is Bill of Rights Day, the anniversary of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; we are quite aware of that.
Mr. Sutherland. Finally, let me state in furtherance of my consti-
tutional reasons, sir, that, in addition to all of the specific articles
which I have cited here, I wish to stand on the Bill of Rights as a
whole, its aims and intent and purpose; namely, a spirit of jealous
defense of the rights of the people.
Mr. Doyle. No, Witness. I am not going to permit you to make
a speech on the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, this is not a speech. That is
Mr. Doyle. Never mind. I heard what you said.
Mr. Sutherland. This is a question. I am standing on the Bill
of Rights as a whole.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7073
Mr. AKE^^s. He has already invoked the fifth amendment, Mr.
Chairman. I think it is sufficient invocation to the question.
You are represented by counsel today ; are you ?
Mr. Sutherland. Allow me to finish.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. DoTLE. Do not malve a speech.
Mr. Sutherland. Allow me to make one more sentence to finish
the sentence I was on.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead. Make it a short sentence.
Mr. Sutherland. You see, in the language of the street, the Bill
of Rights is to keep people from being pushed around by officeholders
who are exceeding their authority. I think this committee
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel today?
Mr. Sutherland. I am represented.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Hamlin. My name is David Hamlin. I am a member of the
board of trustees of the Seattle Bar Association, and was assigned to
assist this witness today.
Mr. Arens. I want to read to you now, Mr. Witness, a little lan-
guage. You have been reading us the Constitution. I want to read
you a little language.
This is from the Communist Manifesto :
The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare
that their ends can be attained only by the forceful overthrow of all existing
social conditions.
Do you subscribe to that doctrine ?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Xow, with reference to your legislative activities, you
said a while ago we were impeding your legislative activities. I want
to be sure that you make your point clear as to what we are impeding.
I have here a coalition document entitled "Coalition for Freedom
and Democracy," a report of the Washington State Committee of the
Communist Party, November 1955, in which Lenin is quoted and
Marx and Engels, on how the Communists are going to proceed legally
or illegally to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat.
(See exhibit Xo. 614, appendix, pp. 8186-8203.)
Mr. Arens. In the course of this voluminous document we see the
comrades called upon to work vigorously, legally or illegally, sur-
reptitiously or otherwise, to repeal the Immigi-ation and Nationality
Act, to repeal the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, and other
anti-Communist legislation.
Take a look at that document and see if this is a legislative program
that this Committee on Un-American Activities of the United States
Congress is impeding. Tell us that now while you are under oath.
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, I think the asking of this question establishes
proof of the necessity of my taking my rights under the first amend-
ment, that this committee is ^oing beyond its legislative purpose and is
transgressing on the right to influence the bills before Congress. And,
therefore
Mr. Arens. No, no. We want to know whether that is your pro-
gram. This is a congressional committee. Tell us. Is that your
7074 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
program ? We are not trying to impede you. We want you to speak
up and tell us. Is that your program ?
Mr. Sutherland. And, therefore, I invoke the rights under the
first amendment and all my other constitutional rights.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of a conspiracy designed to
destroy the Constitution ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sutherland. That is really a loaded question, and I invoke my
constitutional rights, including the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to a publication, the
Communist Daily Peoples World, an article appearing under date of
February 1956, in which you are identified in this publication as the
organizational secretary of the Communist Party.
This was public property. Anybody could read this, pick it up on
a street corner.
Look at this article and tell us now whether or not that publication
defamed you or if it told the truth.
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Arens. That is the Washington State Communist Party.
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Now you were emphasizing Bill of Rights Day, which
is tomorrow.
I have here an article from the Daily Peoples World of April 27,
1956, Avith reference to your participation in a May Day affair in which
there was a panel discussion bv the Washington State Communist
Party.
Look at that while I ask you a couple of questions.
First of all, in that panel discussion were you then talking about
preserving the Bill of Rights?
(The witness examines document.)
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. The fact is that you were engaged there in a conspira-
torial operation to undermine and destroy this Government, were you
not?
Mr. Sutherland. You are asking a question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. And answer the question while you are under
oath.
Mr. Sutherland. It is not clear what the question is. There seems
to be doubt.
Mr. Arens. You were engaged there in a conspiratorial operation as
recounted in that exhibit which was just displayed to you. Is that
not true?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Hartle, Bar-
bara Hartle ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)*
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer on the basis
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up.
Mr. Sutherland. I have a question here. Is it sufficient for me to
say I decline to answer ? Or do I need to state
Mr. Arens. We want to know whether or not your declination is
based upon an honest fear under the fifth amendment that if you did
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7075
give US a truthful answer while you are under oath you would be
supplying information that could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding.
Mr. Sutherland, Now, as I understand it, the question before me
is whether or not I know somebody or other.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Do you know Barbara Hartle?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, may I trouble you to stand up for this last
witiiess ?
(Mrs. Barbara Hartle arose.)
Mr. Arens. Witness, look to the right at that lady standing there,
please.
She testified yesterday under oath that while she was in the Com-
munist Party she knew you as a Communist. Was she lying or was
she telling the truth ?
Mr. Sutherland. I wonder if the witness would come around where
I can see her.
Mr. Arens. I don't think we ought to permit this sort of theatrics
here by this man who has been identified repeatedly as a Communist.
Was this woman lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. Sutherland. If you do not wish to accede to that, then
Just a moment.
( The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer this question on the basis of
the fifth amendment, and, in saying that, where there were two other
instances I did not mention the fifth previously here a couple of ques-
tions ago, I want to make it clear that
IVIr. Arens. You want to back up now and invoke the fifth amend-
ment so that the record is clear that if you did give us a truthful an-
swer you would be giving information that could be used against
you in a criminal proceeding. Is that correct ?
( There was no response.)
i>h\ Arens. Is that correct ?
( There was no response. )
Mr, Arens. Witness, answer the question. Is that correct?
( There was no response. )
Mr. Arens. It will be your last opportunity to clear the record.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Sutherland, Just a moment,
( The witness confers with his counsel, )
Mr, Sutherland, Sir, all I wish to do at this point is to put in the
record that on those two questions where I declined and failed to
state a reason — I believe perhaps you were rushing on to the next ques-
tion—that I wanted to state for the record that there were reasons for
that declination in those two instances, and that reason was the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently connected with the Washington State
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr, Sutherl.\nd, I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
7076 COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. It certainly is
an appropriate question. It couldn't possibly incriminate you be-
cause you were born someplace.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. He is trying to figure out where he was born.
Mr. Doyle. Did you hear my question, Witness, instructing you
to tell us where you were born ? I don't know that you heard me. I
observe that it couldn't possibly incriminate you because you were
born. That is why I am instructing you to answer.
Mr. Sutherland. It is possible, before this committee, sometimes
for a question to lead to other questions.
Mr. Doyle. How could that incriminate you ?
Mr. Sutherland. And the most innocent-appearing questions are
often very loaded and lead to other questions which are incriminating.
Mr. Arens. Tell us where you were born.
Mr. ScHERER. The witness has had sufficient time. Let's pass to
another question.
Mr. DoYLE. I think the witness surely will answer that question.
We are entitled to know, as long as you were born, where you were
born.
Mr. Arens. Were you born in the Western Hemisphere or the East-
ern Hemisphere ?
(There was no response.)
Mr. ScHERER. Where does the record show, counsel ?
Mr. Arens. That is precisely why I am asking the question. I am
not certain.
Mr. Sutherland, I think the
Mr. Arens. Were you born in the Western Hemisphere or Eastern
Hemisphere ?
Mr. Sutherland. I am sure that the committee has a record of that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness now
be ordered and directed to answer that question. We have wasted
about 15 minutes waiting here for this answer.
Mr. Doyle. Answer the question. I direct you to answer it,
(There was no response.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
]\Ir. Doyle. No. He is going to answer finally. What was your
answer ?
Mr. Sutherland. I wish to refuse to answer this question under my
rights under the fifth amendment and other constitutional rights.
Mr. Doyle. I have always been ashamed and afraid of any citizen,
anyone who lives in the United States, that is ashamed to tell the
United States Congi-ess or the Government where they were born.
I am always kind of leery of them. I don't know why, but that is just
my experience, being 10 years in Congress.
It makes me feel uncomfortable wlien a person claiming the glory
of residence and prosperity in the United States is afraid to tell the
people of the United States where he was born. What are you afraid
of?
Mr. Sutherland. This is a common query of this committee.
Mr. Doyle. There is nothing wrong on our part in asking you where
you were born. I will instruct you to answer the question, and see
what we can do about it.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7077
( There was no response. )
Mr. DoTLE. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
( There was no response. )
Mr. Doyle. If you are, produce your certificate of citizenship.
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Sutherland. I am a citizen of the United States.
Mr. ScHERER. You are a citizen. Are you a naturalized citizen, sir?
Mr. Sutherland. I am not a naturalized citizen.
Mr. Scherer. Are you a citizen of the United States by derivation ?
Mr. Sutherland. Xo, I am not.
Mr. Scherer. Then you are a naturally born citizen of the United
States?
Mr. Sltherland. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Why would you hesitate then to tell us you were born
in the United States ?
Mr. Sutherland. I did not hesitate to tell you that.
Mr. Scherer. You didn't ?
Mr. Doyle. You didn't?
You took 7 or 8 minutes to refuse to tell us where you were boiTi.
I watched the clock.
Mr. Sutherland. Before this committee every question opens up
such an area- — — •
Mr. Scherer, That couldn't possibly-
Mr. Sutherland. That one must be careful even of telling the time
of day to this committee, as to where it may lead legally.
Mr. Scherer. I realize your apprehension, Witness, but you are
stretching the point.
When we ask you where you were born and you are born in the
United States, you are just fencing.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions of this witness ?
Mr. Scherer. No, I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. That is all from this witness.
May I say to the police and sheriffs, Mr. Scherer and I are going to
take 2 or 3 minutes to make a statement.
We very much appreciate and expect the courtesy of those that are
in the room to not leave while we are speaking.
You have all been very courteous, and we appreciate it.
We do hope and expect that it will not result in a disturbance be-
cause we are going to take 2 or 3 minutes to say something. So please
cooperate with us.
Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I want to say something with reference to the testi-
mony of Attorney Caughlan, John Caughlan.
While he was on the stand he voluntarily mentioned the criminal
case in which he was involved in this area some time ago, and, by his
testimony, I believe, attempted to lead the committee to believe that a
Federal court had decided that he was not a member of the Communist
Party on the basis of evidence available at that time.
I have had the record checked of that case. And that case didn't
basically involve the question as to whether or not he was a member of
the Communist Party. It did not involve solely the question of whether
the Defendant Caughlan made a false statement about his member-
ship in the Communist Party. That was the basic issue.
7078 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
But, as I said, the question as to whether he made a false statement
as to his membership in the Communist Party wasn't the sole question
involved, because the judge said in his charge to the jury in that case —
The indictment states that Caughlan was testifying to a material matter.
If you find the statements made by the defendant here not material to the
Knaisky case, then you must return an acquittal.
So said the judge. So one of the issues involved was whether or
not the statement that was alleged to have been made by John Caugh-
lan was material to the case.
Mr. Doyle. Gentlemen, in the next couple of minutes this commit-
tee wants to make the closing record of this hearing, and we would ap-
preciate the courtesy of you people in not disturbing us by not leaving
for a couple of minutes. We will hurry along.
But, lest our listeners or the people who read this record get an idea
that this committee of Congress is just concerned about chickenfeed
when it comes to the seriousness of the Communist threat to our own
internal-security laws through the committee for the alleged protection
of the foreign born, or through the Communist Party, or any other
way, let me read one paragraph referred to and incorporated as a part
of a decision June 8, 1955, by the distinguished Federal Judge Leon
Yankwich of the Federal court of Los Angeles County. And this was
as recent as June 8, 1955. I will just read one paragraph which he
referred to in his decision. This is what the Federal judge incor-
porated by reference:
A Communist must be prepared to make every sacrifice and, if necessary,
resort to all sorts of schemes and stratagems, employ illegitimate methods, con-
ceal the truth, in order to get into the trade unions, stay there, and conduct
the revolutionary work within.
Now my own closing statement is this : With this last session today
in this great city of Seattle this subcommittee of the Committee oh
Un-American Activities concludes the current phase of its series of
hearings on the broad subject of Communist political subversion and
propaganda activities directed against the internal-security provisions
of our national laws.
This series in several major cities of the United States has been one
of the most extensive ever conducted. It has afforded us the oppor-
tunity of examining the operation of the subversive Soviet apparatus
in the United States as it functions at this moment in the East, in
the Midwest, in California and here in the great Pacific Northwest.
Because of the consecutive nature of these hearings we have been
able to scrutinize the Communist Party activities and propaganda
in these various geographical, heavily populated areas, and we have
also been able to see how each relates to tile other, and all, viewed to-
gether, form a cohesive nationwide pattern of subversive, conspira-
torial, and illicit activity.
We have received a vast quantity of sworn testimony that illuminates
the operation of the Communist underground from one end of the
Nation to the other. We have been infonned in detail about the
flood of Communist propaganda flowing into the United States from
behind the Iron Curtain and being distributed, in part, as a result of
present subsidies by American taxpayers.
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7079
That is one area in which we are going to consider the matter of
legislation.
We have been able to establish the identity of innumerable Com-
munist-front organizations actively engaged in intensive subversive
assault upon our security laws. We have seen how each of the regional
organizations of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born functions as an integral component of the parent organization,
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
We have been able to determine that the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and the regional organizations are con-
trolled and directed l)y the Conmiunist Party of the United States.
Here in Seattle we have been provided with an excellent present
illustration of how the Communist Party operates.
The Federal court action filed just 2 days ago here in Seattle by
the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, masquer-
ading as a group of sincere and patriotic citizens, was, in fact, planned
and instituted by the Communist Party in this area.
The sworn testimony and documentary record of bank checks intro-
duced in this hearing show that the bank account of the Washing-
ton Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was actually under the
control of persons identified under oath as Communist Party func-
tionaries.
The parade of witnesses before this committee during this past week
has been particularly instructive. We have been confronted with
men and women who have migrated to this Nation and who have re-
paid our generosity with loyalty to a foreign conspiracy instead of
the Stars and Stripes.
We have observed native-born Americans who would cast aside all
patriotism in order to serve the Soviet Union and open the way for
the conc[uest of their fellow countrymen.
Outside of this very hearing room, certain witnesses before this com-
mittee have prated of their concern for our basic freedom of speech
and political action. They have expressed great pride in the propa-
ganda they have issued on behalf of supposedly noble objectives.
But before us, a congressional committee of American Congressmen
here under authority of law, and while they were under oath, they
have refused to speak about their activities and affiliations although
they were given every reasonable opportunity.
They have, instead, taken refuge in deceit and evasion, and, while
they have provided us with little information, they have enabled us
to gage the extent of their lack of sincerity.
We do not criticize any witness who pleads his constitutional privi-
lege in good faith. But too often we know that their use of this
privilege is hypocritical and subversive.
It is a sobering picture we have received during these past days
as we have contemplated these men and women who are seeking to
defraud the people of this area of financial contributions to Commu-
nist-front organizations and enlist them in a campaign aimed at the
subversive destruction of our constitutional form of government.
While they clamor about civil rights, about justice and fair play,
and freedom of speech and of the press they actually hold these con-
stitutional values in contempt. Their single purpose is to bring an
7080 COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
end to all our legal defenses against the conspiracy of international
communism.
They have clearly revealed themselves not as progressives but as
the vanguard of the blackest reaction that mankind has ever known
and which today is murdering innocent freedom-loving women, men,
and children by the thousands in a foreign country, in Hungary.
While they agitate on behalf of supposedly victimized foreign bom
in the United States it is obvious that they have no real humanitarian
motive. The butchery of the people of Hungary leaves them unmoved.
They give neither words nor monej^ to aid the refugees from Hun-
gary. Instead, they attack the inmiigration and nationality law and
other Federal statutes which make it possible for us to give asylum
to thousands of these innocent victims of Soviet oppression and
butchering.
At this point I want to thank everyone who has been so helpful to
this committee here. Manifestly, you observe and we know and feel
that the work of this committee is no picnic. It is very difficult. But
it is our job to do.
I want to thank the Seattle Police Department, the sheriff's depart-
ment and the custodians of this building, including the elevator men
and women and the janitors who have to clean up after us, and the
commissioners of this great county and city. We appreciate it very,
very much.
And I want to especially thank the members of the Seattle Bar
Association who volunteered their services. They were so cooperative
in protecting their clients' rights and yet consistently making it as
brief as the^^ could. I couldn't help but observe, though — and I don't
say this critically — that I wonder if the Seattle bar hasn't been a little
bit imposed upon by some of these people.
In other words, if all of these witnesses claimed to the bar that they
were indigent and didn't have money to pay $25 or $50 or $75 to hire
a lawyer before this committee, it just looks to me like some of the
witnesses have been imposing upon some of the members of the Seattle
bar. I say that with utmost respect to the Seattle bar. You axe most
generous ; you are most capable ; you are most patriotic.
But it just looked to me, from the jewelry and the fine appearance
of some of these witnesses, that they have imposed upon some members
of the Seattle bar in saying that they didn't have the money to pay
for representation.
Now, in closing, I would like to emphasize again that the Committee
on Un-American Activities is not attempting to restrict the right of
any legitimate organization or individual to engage in efforts to change
our laws. Our purpose is to develop accurate, extensive information
on the activities of the Communist Party in the United States and the
Communist fronts, their methods of illegal propaganda and infiltra-
tion, and their activities against the internal security laws passed by
the United States Congress. We in Congress feel we are entitled to
know with whom we are dealing.
I wish to repeat that I am certain that every thinking, patriotic
citizen knows that we in Congress and the members of your State
legislature must know who is petitioning us in order that we might
do a fair, honest, equitable job in legislation.
The secret lobbyists, the deceptive lobbyists, the undisclosed lob-
byists are the ones that are dangerous. We welcome and invite the
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7081
lobbying and the petitioning of Congress at every level by people
who disclose their true identi1:y and their true interest.
It is apparent to us that, far from there being the need for repeal
of any existing anti-Communist legislation, there is an imperative
need for the strengthening of all existing laws so the democratic proc-
esses of this Nation may be further safeguarded against those who seek
to use them for ultimate annihilation of our constitutional democracy.
In the field of contemplated legislation this subcommittee, promptly
upon our return to our Nation's Capital, shall have a conference with
our full committee membership, and we shall, together, carefully de-
termine what legislation we will recommend to the next session of the
United States Congress.
My last word is that I v\ish to also express appreciation to all you
listeners who have been in the commissioners' room. You have been
most gracious.
And I think. Mr. Scherer, that, as a California Congressman, I want
the record to show that I think the Seattle listeners, the Seattle wit-
nesses, and the Seattle counsel, substantially, have been the nicest
group that we have had to work with on the Pacific coast. And that
means that we have had hearings in my city of Los Angeles and San
Francisco. But you are the nicest group to work with, and we ap-
preciate it very much.
The committee will stand adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 10 p. m., Friday, December 14, 1956, the commit-
tee was recessed subject to the call of the Chair. Committee members
present: Representatives Doyle and Sclierer.)
INDEX
Page
Abelson, Evelyn 6177, 6191, 6218,
6397-641.) (testimony), 6415, 6418, 6426, 6428, 6438, 6440, 6451
Abrams, Sheldon Joseph 7050
Adair, Chester 6958, 7015
Aderer, Clair. {See Jensen, Clair. )
Adler, William 6320
Alexander, Paula 6955
Allan, Lewis 6411
Allured, Paul Johnson 6483
Alves, Bert 6164
Amacker, Louis 6577
Amter, Israel 6337
Andersen, George R 6878
Anderson, Myrna 6948, 6982-6983 (testimony) ; 7021
Anderson, Sven 6581
Andrulis, Vincent 6162, 6165, 6476, 6477
Appell, Donald T 6386 (testimony)
Armstrong, H. C 6944
Aruautoff, Victor 6924-6931 (testimony)
Arnold, Thurman 6202
B
Baharas, Ruth. ( See Heit, Ruth. )
Bailynson, Belle 6298-6303 (testimony)
Bakowski, Regina. {See Rudiak, Regina.)
Baldwin, Bereniece 6485, 6519, 6540
Baldwin, C. R. ("Beany") 0213
Baldwin, Roger N «247
Bard, Phil 6447
Barnett, Arthur G 6982, 7019
Barnett, Evelyn 6305
Barron, Harriet___ 6185-6195 ( testimony ), 6217, 6354, 6364, 6405-6407, 6478, 7065
Bart, Phil 6357, 6358
Bartlett, Lucille 6612-6614 (testimony), 6616
Beachboard, Louise L 6355, 6356
Bednarz, Adam 6581, 6582
Belka, Walter 6948, 6972, 697.3-6975 (testimony)
Bendix, Gilbert 6895
Berman, Louise. (See Bransten, Louise.)
Berry, Abner W 7046
Bittelman, Alexander (Jird, 6165
Blackman, Julian 6579
Blackman, Saul 6575, 6576
Blair, Bud 6647
Blazina, Charles 6579
Blish, Myron 6571, 6572
Block, Harry 6355
Blodgett, Charles David 6921
Bloom, Rose L 6356
Booth, Wayne C 7016
Born, Blanche (5570
Bouchard, Mrs. Jule T 6314
Boudiii, Li'oiiard B (1360
Boviiigdou, Marva 6729.6790-6795 (testimony)
i
ii INDEX
Page
Bowen, Judge 7018
Bradley, Raymond J 6363
Bransten, Louise (Mrs. Lionel Berman) 6911
Brant, Carl 6646, 6647, 6651-6660 (testimony)
Brewster, Mary Jane. (See Tancioco, Mary Jane.)
Bridges, Harry 6876, 6888, 6905, 6911
Bristol, Al 6944
Brock, Robert L 6703, 6715, 6716, 6718-6720, 6742
Brodsky, Carl 6337
Browder, Earl 6211, 6618-6620, 6646, 6888, 6900
Brown, Cleophas 6920-6923 (testimony)
Buckner, Mary Phillips 6572
Burnham, Louis E 6204
Burton, Philip L 7023, 7056
Busch, Henry Miller 6379
Butler, John 6448
Butler, Nicholas Murray 6208
Butterworth, Joseph 6948
C
Caldwell, John C 6932
Caldwell, Nathan E., Jr 6553-6562 (testimony),
6564-6565 (testimony) ,6569, 6570
Cameron, Angus 6195-6198
Careathers, Ben 6444
Carle, Tillie. (See Rogers, Tillie.)
Carlisle, Harry 6703-6711 (testimony), 6729, 6733, 6736
Carlson, Anton J 6182
Carlson, Frank 6736
Carr, Sam 6189
Castle, Pearl 6955,7051-7053 (testimony)
Caughlan, John 6952, 6956, 6960, 6966, 6967, 6991, 7016, 7018, 7023,
7041, 7056-7070 (testimony), 7077, 7078
Caughlan, .John W 69.56, 7067
Chernin, Rose. (See Kusnitz, Rose.)
Clark 6574
Clott, Lillian 7022
Cluster, Don 6976
Cobb, David 6238, 6239
Cohen, Elizabeth Boggs 6944, 7008
Cole, Lester 6625
Colloms, Albert L 6195-6203 (testimony)
Combs, Richard E 7050
Connelly, Philip 6647
Conrad, Mabel 6948, 6963
Copass, Michael K 7016
Corr, Cecelia 6952, 6953, 6991, 7018, 7067
Cortor, William 6625, 6626
Criley, Dick 6573
Crocket. George W., Jr 6460, 6478, 6502, 6517, 6522, 6.529. B543
Cronin, Kathleen. (See Ruuttila, Julia.)
Cross, Ephraim 6198
Cummings, Robert 6948, 6995-^999 (testimony)
Cunningham (E. Luther) 6310
Cvetic, Matthew 6235, 6418, 6424, 6426, 6430-6433
Czaniowski, Anzelm (alias Steve Czerwin) 6.547.
6562-6585 (testimony), 6596, 6597
Czenviu, Steve. (See Czarnovvski, Anzelm.)
D
Damon, Frances MacKinnon (formerly INIrs. Herbert Williams) 6263-
6274 (testimony)
Dasehbach, John 6948, 7041-7048 (testimony), 7062
Davis, Benjamin J 6211
INDEX iil
Page
Davis, David 6374, 6375, 6430
Deariufier, O. L 6948
Decavitch, Victor 6278, 6279
DeJonge, Dirk 6970, 6976-6977 (testimony)
DeLacy, Hugh 6534, 6947
Delaney, Tliomas 6363
Dellekauip, Paul 6579
DeMaio, Eruest 6583, 6596-6602 (testimony)
Dennett, Eugene 7008
Dennis, Eugene 6231
Derman, Sol 6623
Dietze, George E 6424, 6425, 6432, 6433, 6440
Dobbs, Zygmuud 6142, 6143, 6153
Dodd, Bella 6229
Doll, Tracy 6523
Dolsen, James 6407, 6444
Donner, Frank 6360
Doran. Lillian 6172, 6710, 6847-6851 (testimony)
Doyle, Charles , : 6165, 6738
Doyle, Miriam 6300
Drake, Nadine 6523
Draper, Muriel 6164
Drew, Katherine 6573
Dreyfus, Benjamin 6896
Du Bois, W. E. B 6196
E
Easter, Ed 6572
Eaton, Julia. ( See Ruuttila, Julia.)
Edwards, Carmen 6724
Eisler, Gerhart 6165, 6534, 6658, 6659
Eisler, Mrs. Gerhart 6659
Ellis, Milliard 6570
Erikson, Alma 6612, 6615-6617 (testimony)
F
Fairchild, Mildred 6356
Falkner, Otto 7050
Fanaru, Harry 6499
Fantz, James S 6979-6981 (testimony)
Fast, Howard 6271
Figueiredo, Eulalia 6165
Fisher, A. A 6948
Fisher, Leroy 6217
Fishman, Alvin 6519
Fishman, Margaret (Mrs. Alvin Fishman; nee Radulovich) 6480,
6500, 6517-6522 ( testimony ) , 6.i29
Fishman, Moe 6448, 6449, 6450
Flaxer, Abram (Abi'aham) 6417
Fleischer, Louis 6229
Fletcher, Jess 6944
Foley, Alma 6607-6612 (testimony), 6613
Foran, Frank 6574
Forer, Joseph 6154, 6172, 6185, 6195, 6203, 6297, 6349
Forschmiedt, Kachmiel 6948, 6970, 6971-6972 (testimony)
Fougerouse, John 6168
Fowler, Kleancn- 6354
Freed, Emil 6725
Freed, Tassia 6725
Freedman, Dave 622^)
Fi'iedman, Milloii H 62(53, 6280
Fritchman, Sterihen H 6164, 6808-6819 (testimony). 6S2.S,' 6842
Funn, 1 >or(ithy. (»S'rc Swan, Dorotliy.)
85333 — 57— i)t. 1 61
It index
a
Page
Gabow, Frances (formerly Jaffe) 6371-6376 (testimony)
Gallo, John 6479
Ganley, Anna 6475
Gannett, Betty 6189
Gates. John 6231, 6450
Gates, Michael (J351, 6371
Geiser, Ruth. ( See Heit, Ruth. )
Gellert, Hugo (born Hugo Greenbaum) 6229, 6326-6332 (testimony) ; 6335
George, Al 6577
Gibson, Lolita 6737
Gladnick (Robert) 6448, 6450
Gladstone, Charles (also known as Charley Young) _ 6648, 6667-6674 (testimony)
Glatis, James 6166, 6167
Glenn, Al 6579, 6580
Glover, Ray 6948, 6992-6995 (testimony)
Goddard, Howard 6690, 6754-6756 (testimony)
Gold, Michael 6330
Goldblatt, Louis (also known as Lewis Miller) 6453,
6878-6889 ( testimony ), 6933
Goldner, Sanford 6648, 6678-6691 (testimony)
Goodman, Morris 6756-6762 (testimony)
Gowgiel, Florence 6571, 6574
Graham, Shirley 6204
Green, Abner (born Abraham Greenberg) 6149,
6150, 6152-6185 (testimony) ; 6188, 6200, 6201, 6207, 6208, 6221,
6228, 6241, 6243, 6261, 6277, a384, 6390, 6402, 6403, 6411, 6420, 6423,
6478, 6517, 6548, 6556, 6591, 6638, 6714, 6724, 6824, 6826, 6876, 6891,
6893, 6894, 6953, 6962, 7036, 7062, 7064, 7065.
Green, Al 6580
Green, Gil — 6580, 6581, 6599
G reenbaum, Hugo. ( See Gellert, Hugo. )
Greenberg, Abraham. {See Green, Abner.)
Grossman, Aubrey 6152, 6889, 6896-6915 (testimony) ; 6929
Grossman, Saul 6217,
6460-6492 (testimony) : 6496, 6503, 6509, 6510, 6529
Guthman, Ed 7019
Haaland, Norman 6999, 7037-7040 (testimony)
Hagen, Uta 6171. 6299
Hall, Martin 6854-6858
Hall, Ralph 6955
Halonen, Oiva 6948
Hamlin, David O 7015, 7071
Hancock, Stanley B 6890, 6891
Hardin, Reuben J 6398 6418, 6436
Harper, Clark 7055, 7056
Harris, Marie Richardson 6732
Hart, Pearl M 6216, 6.585, 6607, 6617, 6621
Hartle, Barbara 6943-6950 (testimony) ;
6952-6956 (testimony) ; 6962, 6971, 6972, 6974, 6982, 6987, 6988, 6992,
6996, 7001, 7005, 7051-7053 (testimony) ; 7058, 7060, 7061, 7074, 7075
Harvey 6448
Haslam, (A. Herbert) 6356
Hathaway, Clarence A 6617-6621 (testimony)
Hathaway, Milton 6619
Hatten, Louise Seifried 6952, 6991, 7018, 7019-7023 (testimony) ; 7067
Heikkila, William 6867, 6872, 6914-6920 (testimony)
Heist, A. A 6729
Heit, Ruth (nee Geiser; also known as Ruth Baharas) 6585-6-596 (testimony)
Helmuth, Joseph 6581, 6583
Henrickson (Stanley William) 7016
Herman, Irving 6580
Herriott, (Clarence Dillaway) 6893
INDEX V
Page
Hill, Charles A 6478, 6499, 6500, 6522-6529 (testimony) ; 6531, 6532
Hill, Dickson P 6898
Hillsgrove, Ruth E — __ ^ 6366
Hirning, Ed 6577
Hiss, Alger 6930
Hoague, Francis — 7023, 7066
Holmgren, Roderich 6990
Holmgren, Mrs. Roderich 6990
Honig, Bessie 6898, 6899
Hood, Frances 6370
Horowitz, Charles 6971, 7015
Howard, Loa 7027
Howard, Vincent 7003, 7004, 7035-7036 (testimony)
Hubbard, Gobel 6570, 6571
Huff, Henry P 7019
Huggins, Roy — 6693, 6694
Hughes, John 6900
Hunton, (William) Alphaeus 6204
Hyndman, Katharine 6169
Hyun, Alice — 6845
Hyun, David 6710, 6711-6718 (testimony) ; 6729, 6736, 6741, 6760, 6845
Hyun, Mary H. (Mrs. David Hyun) 6836, 6840, 6845
Hyun, Peter 6729,6838-6847 (testimony)
Ilchuk, Frank Humphrey 6217, 6256-6263 (testimony)
Iwinski, Walter 6583
Jackson, Paul D . 7066
Jafle. (iSee Gabow, Frances.)
James, Burton 6948
James, Florence Bean 6948
Janchenko, Anthony 6572
Jasinski, Eugene 6583
Jeffers, Dorothy M 6924, 6925
Jenkins, Edith 6871
Jensen, Clair (nee Aderer) 6889-6895 (testimony)
Jerome, V. J 6125, 6328
Johns, Beatrice 6572, 6574
Johnson, Allen. (See McNeil, Allan D.)
Johnson, Hewlett 6814
Johnston, Harold 6948
Jones, Alec 6166, 6187, 6217, 6292-6298 (testimony) ; 6305
Jones, Claudia 6163-6165
Jones, Mona (Mrs. Alec Jones ; nee Schneider) 6303-6306 (testimony)
Juditz, Paul. {See Yuditch. Paul.)
Jurich, Joseph 6947
K
Kaeser, Frank 6572
Kandall, Terry 6577
Kaplan, Seymour 6297
Keller, James 6296, 6557, 6568, 6593, 6594
Kenny, Robert W 680S
Kheifets, Gregori 6910, 6911
Kimple, William 6656, 6657
King, Carol ^ 6167, 6478
Kingdon, Frank 6244
Kinney, Marion 6947, 6952, 6953, 6955, 6956, 6958-6967 (testimony) ;
6991, 6998, 7018, 7022, 7067
Kline, Joseph 6763
Klinger, Ed 6575, 6578
vi INDEX
Pas«
Koch, Ray 6579
Koriiacker, Mildred 6551
Koshel, John 6572
Krumbein, Margaret 6338
Kusiiitz, Rose (nee Chernin) 6172, 6485, 6763-6772 (testimonv) ;
6815, 6821-6831 (testimony) ; 6834, 6836
L
Lambert, Walter 6871
Lampell, Millard 6625
Land, Jerome 6725, 6773-6784 (testimony)
Landon, Herman R 6736, 6740
Landy, Avro 6228, 6241
Langer, Verna 6730, 6731, 6733
Larsen, Karley 6947, 6974\ 6975', 7008
Lautner, John 6178-6170
(testimony) : 6181, 6188-6189 (testimony) ; 6190, 6225-6233 (testi-
mony) ; 6234, 6239-6241, 6250, 6251, 6272, 6273, 6329, 6337-6339
(testimony) ; 6618.
Lawrie, John ^ 6955
Lazarus, Emma 6472, 6604, 6605
Lehman, Fred 6317
Leirioh, Karl 6577
Lenhart, Jennie 6236
Lent, Berkeley 6969, 6977, 6979, 6999, 7001, 7024
Leonard, Norman 6866, 6924
Lesser, Sarah Hortense 6955, 6984^6991 (testimony)
Leutchman, Dolores. (See Storich, Dolores.)
Levitan, A. Harry 6307,
6318-a320, 6349-6362 (testimony) ; 6357, 6364-6366, 6371
Lewis, Ed 6579
Lewis, Helen 6218, 6602-6607 (testimony)
Lightcap, Rose. {See Nelson, Rose.)
Lima, Mickey 6900
Linn, Ethel 6851-6854 (testimony)
Llorca, Louis 6.577
Logan, Thomas 6310
Loughry, Wilhelmine 6895
Lowe, Lawrence 6896
Lowell, Frank 6406
Ludel, Leonard 6742-6746 (testimony)
Lundgren, Lee 6547
Limdt. Roy 6825
Lym, La Verne ' 6891
M
Maddox, Edward C 6674
Madsen, Joe 6580
Malbin, Barney 6970
Mally, Emma Louise 62.50-6286 (testimony)
Manewitz, Fanny (Mrs. Sam Manewitz) 6622, 6624
Manewitz, Sam -__ 6622, 6624
Mankin, Joseph L 6409, 6435, 6436, 6440
Mao Tse-tung 6839
March, Herbert 6.567
Marczewski, Edmund 6577
Margolis, Ben 6727, 6728
Markward. Mary Stalcup 6222
Marshall, Daniel G 6831, 6854
Marzani, Carl 6247-6255 (testimony) ; 6329, 6481
Max, Alan i 6625
Mazzei, Joseph 6418, 6424, 64.30-6433
McCormick, Emmett 649S, 6500
1 Misspelled Karly Larsen in these references.
- Incorrectly spelled Veru Lym in this reference.
INDEX vu
Page
McDonald, James t>572
McMurray, Lloyd E (>914
McNeil. Allan D. (also known as Allen Johnson) 6409,
6438,6441-6455 (testimony)
McTernan, Anne Perpich 6799-6807 (testimony) ; 6826, 6S27
McTernan, John Trip <jyll
Medina, Harold 6975, 6997
Metcalf, C. M 6527
Meyers, Irving 6596
Mickenberg 6448
Mikkelsen, Harold M 6485
Milgrom, Sam 6262, 6276, 6528
Miller, Lewis, (-b'ee Goldblatt, Louis.)
Miller, Marion 6760-6762
Miller, Tom 6411
Millet, Martha 6625
Mills, Nathaniel ■ 6367
Milos, Bogdan 6579
Minor, Robert 6331, 6332
Mitchell, Walter A 6172, 6173, 6815, 6S18
Moore, Richard B 6163
Morasaka, John 6184
Morgan, John 6900
AIncchio, Frank 6579
Mudrak, John 6572
Mulzac, Hugh 6286-6291 (testimony)
Murphv, George B., Jr 620.3-6218 (testimony), (i219, 6220
Murrish, William B 6633, 6790, 6799
Musil, Charles 6228, 6233-6238 (testimony)
^Nlusmanno, Michael 6433, 6434
N
Nathan, Otto 6197, 6360
Needleman, Isidore G 6218,
6221, 6233, 6256, 6286, 6292, 6303, 6326, 6340
Negin, Anna 6740
Nelson, Burt 6939-6945 (testimony)
Nelson, Pete 6165
Nelson, Rose (Mrs. Harry Raymond ; also known as Rose Nelson Liglitcap) _ 6170,
6223, 6295
Nelson, Steve 6191, 6250, 6406, 6407, 6444, 6449, 6450, 6900, 6911
Nichols, Charles 6949
Nixon, Richard M 6930
Nixon, Russell 6274-6280 (testimony) ; 6714
Novick, Irving 6158, 6228, 6238-6247 (testimony)
Novick, Paul 6167, 6253
Nowak, Stanley 6369, 6472, 6484, 6499, 6523, 6529-6542 (testimony)
O
O'Connell, Jeremiah Joseph (Jerry) 6949
Okal, Sam 6577. 6580
O.ssip, Constantine 6217, 6218, 6332-6337 (testimony)
Owen. Homer 6976, 6978, 7002
Palka, Selena (Mrs. Walter Palka) 6567, 6582, 6583
Palka, Vvalter 6568, 6581, 6582
Parnshiades, Themistokles 6471, 6472
Parnall, Stanley R 6318
Parris, Nina 6363-6365 (testimony)
Partridge, Grace (Mrs. Irving Partridge! 6170, 6866-6876 (testimony) ; 6895
Patterson, William L 6152, 6229, 6301
Paulson. Clara 6952, 6953, 6991, 7018, 7067
Pennock, William J 6949
Perpich, Anne. (See McTernan, Anne.)
viil INDEX
Pag«
Perry, Pettis _- 7036, 7065
Persiley, Bernard 6573
Petrofsky, Stella 6317 '
Petty, Arthur 6572
Petty, Ernest 6572
Petty, Leon 6572
Petty, Roy 6572, 6574
Philbrick, Herbert 6367
Phillips, Herbert J 6949
Plesko, Andy 6571
Podolner, Gill 6576
Podolski, Henry 6162, 6165
Polich, John 6577
Polich, Marion 6577
Polich, Mary (Mrs. Marion Polich) 6577
Pontes, Gus . 6470, 6472
Poll, Harry 6578-6580
Polonsky, Abraham 6625
Porter, John W 6651, 6660, 6667-6670,
6697-6699, 6703, 6711, 6724, 6725, 6754, 6763, 6821, 6838, 6847
Poskonka, Joseph 6568
Potash, Irving 6534
Pozzi, Frank H 6969, 6977, 6979, 6999, 7001, 7024
Pratt, Morris 6577
Pribatek, Arlin 6572
Purnam, Dwight F 6318
Puskarie (Piiskarich), Ed 6579
Putnam, Harold L 6143
R
Rabbitt, Thomas C 6949
Rabinowitz, Victor 6197
Radulovieh, Milo 6520, 6521
Ramsey, Walter W 6597
Randies, Anthony V 6711
Raskin (Jack) 6523
Rein, David 6297
Reinstein, Carl 6174
Reuther, Walter 6580, 6984
Rhee, Syngman 6283, 6716
Richardson, Esco L 6892
Richter, Edna 6355
Riemer, Mortimer 6202
Robeson, Paul 6204, 6271, 6290
Robinson, Cyril 6612, 6615
Robinson, Marguerite 6729, 6831-6834 (testimony)
Rogers, Jane 6550
Rogers, Tillie (nee Carle) 6162,6547-6551 (testimony), 656.8
Rogers, William P 6722
Rogge, O. John 6311
Roine, Andrew 6611
Roosevelt, Archibald B 6142-6153 (testimony), 6179, 6180, 6250, 6251, 6278
Rosenberg, Dave 6367
Rosenberg, Rose S 6172, 6756, 6784, 6828, 6837, 6851
Rosser, Louis 6798, 6878, 6879, 6882, 6885. 6898
Rotenberg, Sol 6307, 6309-6325 (testimony) ; 6349, 6354, 6361, 6362
Rothenberg, Don 6325
Rothstein, Ida 6872
Rubicz, Lillian 7053-7057 (testimony)
Rubino, Al 6578
Rudiak, Joseph 6434-6441 (testimony)
Rudiak, Regina (Mrs. Joseph Rudiak; nee Bakowski) 6439
Rudich, Stephen J 6447
1 Incorrectly spelled Petrosky in this reference.
INDEX Ix
Page
Ruff, Heuiy 7052
Kupp, John M 6989,7004,7015
Russell, Rose V 6196, 6198, 6228-6230
Ruthenberg, Charles E 6146
Ruuttila, Josephine. (Sec Ruuttila, Julia.)
Ruuttila, Julia (Mrs. Oscar Ruuttila; also known as Kathleen Ruuttila,
Josephine Ruuttila, Julia Eaton, Kathleen Cronin) 7024-7034
Ruuttila, Kathleen (See Ruuttila, Julia.)
Ruuttila, Oscar 7030
Ruzich, Nick 6579
Samuels, Allen 6579
Santes, Gus. (See Tsantes, Gus.)
Santo, John 6165
Sartisky, Jack 6419
Scattergood, J. Henry 6319
Schaffer, Mitchell W 6319
Schemanske, Stephen J 6488-6501 (testimony);
6506, 6507, 6518, a531, 6532, 0543, 6546
Schlesinger, Hymen 6377, 6391, 6397, 6414, 6424-6434 (testimony), 6441, 6445
Schniiess, John 6579, a580
Schneider, Anita 6699 (testimony) ;
6710, 6713, 6722-6742 (testimony) ; 6749, 6791, 6792, 6794, 6800, 6832, 6839
Schneider, Mona. {See Jones, Mona.)
Schneiderman, William 6649, 6898, 6900
Schoichet, Nathan L 667S
Schroetter, Charles Heintz 6576
Schweppe, Alfred J 7016
Scott, B. L 6319
Scribner, David 6298, 6299
Seder, Morris 6410
Sefton, Lawrence 6969-6970 (testimony)
Senk, Doris 6259, 6264
Sennett, William 6579
Seiitner, Antonia (Mrs. William Sentner) 6170
Sentner, William 6387
Sergo, Ray 6579
Shandler, Esther 6784-6790 (testimony)
Sheppard (Professor) 0523
Shermls, Celia 6724, 6726
Ship, Reuben ^ 6740
Shrank, Norman 6189
Silva, Adele Kronick 6852, 6853
Silver, Max 6657, 6761, 6762
Simpkins, Modjeska 6204
Sindell, David I 6390
Siuba, Cazimir 6568, 6583
Smith, Delphine Murphy 6633-6646 (testimony) ; 68:^6
Smith, Edna 6648
Smith, Ferdinand C 6163, 6165, 6190, 6289, 6534, 6598, 6610
Smith, J. N 6191
Smith, Louise Pettibone 6217,6485,6507,6509
Sobel, Harry 6568, 6569
Sparks, Nemmy 6647
Si)ector, Marjorie 6158, 6243
SiK'iser, Lawrence 6920
Starcevic, David 6725, 6727, 672S
Starcevic, Miriam (Mrs. David Starcevic) 6725, 6727, 6728, ()739
Starks, John R 6621-6626 (te.stimony)
Starr, Edward 6568
Starr, Vicki (Mrs. Edward Starr) 6568
Steinberg, Bessie 6414-6424 (testimony) ; 6426, 6438
Steinberg, Irving G 6547, 6553. 6602
Steinberg, M. Y 6391-6397 (testimony)
X INDEX
Page
Steinmetz, Harry 6730
Stevenson, Janet 6691-6697 (testimony)
Stevenson, Miriam 6736, 6741
Stone, I. F 6360
Storich, Dolores (nee Leutchman) 6500, 6543-6546 (testimony)
Strange, Dorothy S 6219, 6220, 6221-6223 (testimony)
Strong, Edward 6219
Sunoo, Harry 6949, 7008
Sutherland, Milford 6955, 7071-7077 (testimony)
Sutton, Olive 6262, 6368
Swan, Dorothy Funn_ 6204, 6218-6220 (testimony)
Sweet, Sam 6165
Sxucky, Zoltan 6236
Sykes, Jay G 6973, 6984, 6992, 6995, 7023, 7035, 7037, 7051
T
Tancioco, Marv Jane (Mrs. Ramon Taneioco ; nee Brewster) 6977-
6979 (testimony)
Taylor, Daniel 6891
Taylor, Valerie Lee 7001-7003 (testimony)
Terrazas, Irene 6837-6838 (testimony)
Thomas, Herman 6312,
6324, 6325, 6350 (testimony) ; 6351, 6352 (testimony) ; 6358, 6365,
6372-6373 (testimony).
Thompson, Ray 6900
Thompson, Robert 6347, 6450
Thomson, Winnie 6949
Todd, Victor 6999
Togliatti, Palmiro 6449
Tonini, Fred ' _'__ 6578
Treffman, Mildred 6549
Treuhaft, Decca 6871
Tsantes, Gus 6408, 6410, 6419
Turner, Jeanette Stern 6339-6349 (testimony)
Turner, Robert 6576
Tyler, Jerry 6949
U
Uhrin, John 6648,6660-6665 (testimony)
Unger, Abraham 6229
Van Leuven, Josephine (nee Yanez) 6217, 6697-6703 (testimony) ; 6836
VanLydegraf, Clayton 6955,7004-7014 (testimony) ; 7050
Vauirhn, Luther 6572
Vonderlack, Leonard 6579
Vrba 6235
W
Wallace, William 6949
Weber, Dorothy 6593
Weinstock, Louis 6217
Wellman, Mignon Peggy (Mrs. Saul Wellman) 6470,
6474, 6500, 6502-6517 (testimony) ; 6529
Wellman, Saul 6450, 6500, 6510
Wereb, Stephen A 6641-6642 (testimonv) ; 6643,6644,6646-6650 (testimony) ;
6653, 6654, 6661, 6668, 6675, 6681, 6683-6685
West, Don 6282
Westman, Lenus 6954, 6963
Wheeler, William A 6951-6952 (testimonv)
Whitley, Frank J 6649,6674-6678 (testimony)
Wildman, Leonard 6944
Wilkinson, Frank 6730,6747-6753 (testimony)
Williams, David J 7015, 7053
INDEX xi
Williams, Frances Damon. (See Damon, Frances MacKinnon.) Page
Williams, Fred 6470, 6471
Williams, Herbert 6263
Williams, Mrs. Herbert. {See Damon, Frances MacKinnon.)
Williamson, John 6165
Wilson, Charles 6575
Wirin. A. L 6669, 6747, 6763, 6821
Woody, Tliomas 6319
Wright, Alex 6327, 6356, 6396, 6397
Wright, John 6570
Yanez, Josephine. {See Van Leuven, Josephine.)
Yanish, Nat 6867, 6872, 6873, 6895
Yankwieh (Leon K.) 6722, 6951, 7078
Yarnall, Anna 6319
Yates, Oleta O'Connor 6329, 6708
Young, Charley. {See Gladstone, Charles.)
Young, Cone C 6795-6799 (testimony)
Young, Martin 6170, 6736, 6927
Young, S.vlvia 6836
Yuditch, Paul (also spelled Juditz) 6167, 6168
Z
Zazrivy, Elsie 6377-6391 (testimony)
Zucker, Jack 6365
Organizations
Abraham Lincoln School 6571
Alex Bittelman Defense Committee 6165
All-Slav Congress, United States 6226
Alliance, Inc., The 6143, 6144, 6147
American Civil Liberties Union 6241,6242,7066
Northern California 6861, 6863
American Coalition of Patriotic, Civic and Fraternal Societies 6143
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6146,
6148-6152, 6154, 6155, 6185, 6190, 6207, 6216, 6227, 6235, 6293. 6394,
6456, 6534, 6569, 6591, 6605, 6626, 6628, (5632, 6862, 6877, 6950, 6956,
6982, 6998, 7024, 7062, 7079.
American Foundation. {See Foundation of America.)
American Labor Party 6197
American League Again.st War and Fascism 6343
American Peace Crusade 6169, 6601, 6(U2, G983
American-Polish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (Detroit) {see
also Polish-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6169, 6298
American-Russian Fraternal Society 61(58, (5:'.34
American Russian Institute of San Francisco 6874
American Women for Peace 6284, 6285, 6302
American Youth for Democracy 6493
American- Yugoslav Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6396
New York Chapter 6162, 6165, 6168, 6298
Americans for Democratic Action 6148, 6278
Andrulis Defense Committee. {See Vincent Andrulis Defense Com-
mittee. )
Antonia Sentner Defense Committee (St. Louis, Mo.). {Sec entry under
Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, United, District 8.)
April Farms (Penn.sylvania) i (3374
Armenian Progressive League, The 6168
Astoria Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born 7028
Automobile, Aircraft, and Agricultural Implement Workers of America,
United 6085
Local .51 (Detroit), Sam Sweet Defense Committee 6165
Local 208, Fred Williams Defen.se Committee 0470
Local 719 6580, 6581
xii INDEX
Page
Bay Area Council Against Discrimination 6905
B'nai B'rith 6761, 6762
Book Fair Committee 6284
California Legislative Conference (Los Angeles) 6731
California State Federation of Labor 6888
Cannon Electric Co 6640
Charles Doyle Defense Committee 6165
Chicago Council of Soviet- American Friendship. (See National Council
of American- Soviet Friendship, Chicago Council.)
Chicago Jewish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6569, 6593
Chicago Labor Defense Committee 6163
Chopin Cultural Club (Chicago) 6566, 6569, 6579, 6581-6583
Citizens Committee to End the Stool Pigeon Racket (Pittsburgh, Pa.) 6430
Citizens Committee to Preserve American Freedoms 6729, 6730, 6750, 6751
Citizens Committee to Secure Bail for Martin Young (see also Committee
for the Freedom of Martin Young) 6927
Citizens Emergency Defense Conference (New York City) 6182, 6290
Civil Rights Congress 6125, 6156, 6168, 6229, 6285, 6536,
6574, 6636, 6638, 6905, 7047
Conference on Civil and Human Rights (June 25, 1949) 6285
East Bay 6923
Illinois 6550
Los Angeles 6641, 6833, 6834
Michigan 6495, 6496, 6523
New York City 6591
Pennsylvania 6400
People's Conference to Repeal the McCarran Act 6252
Portland, Oreg 7036
St. Louis, Mo 6624
San Diego 6724, 6725, 6733, 6734, 6738-6740
San Francisco : 6793
Washington 6948
Civil Rights Federation (Michigan) 6523
Clatsop County Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (Oregon) 7027, 7028
Claudia Jones Defense Committee 6163-6165
Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy 6844
Committee for Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born (see also Com-
mittee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born) 6170, 6970
Committee for Defense of John Fougerouse 6168
Committee for Free Political Advocacy 6346
Committee for Protection of Greek-Americans 6298
Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born (see also, Committee
For Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born) 6155,
6977, 6978, 6980, 7001, 7012, 7035, 7038, 7040
Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law and the Defense of
Sam and Fanny Manewitz 6622, 6624
See also:
Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Stop Depor-
tation of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Sam and Fanny Manewitz Defense Committee.
Committee for the Freedom of Martin Young (see also Citizens Commit-
tee to Secure Bail for Martin Young 6170
Committee for the Freedom of Sam Milgrom 6262, 6528
Committee for World Youth Friendship and Cultural Exchange 6804
Committee in Defense of Henry Podolski 6162, 6165
Committee To Aid Spanish Democracy 6447
Committee to Defend Chungsoon and Choon Cha Kwak 6280, 6282
Committee to Defend Marie Richardson Harris 6732
Committee To End Sedition Laws 6441, 6443-6445
Committee To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and To Protect the For-
eign Born (Philadelphia) 6374
Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Stop Deportation of
Sam and Fanny Manewitz 6624
See also:
Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law and the De-
fense of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Sam and Fanny Manewitz Defense Committee.
INDEX xiii
Page
Comrmmist Information Bureau 6338, 6339
Communist Party. USA 6231
Executive Committee 6G56
Hungarian National Bureau 6178, 6179
National Review Commission 6179, 6338
Nationality Groups Commission 6179, 6225, 6226
Communist Party :
District 3 (Eastern Pennsylvania) 6374
District 8 (Illinois) 6577
California :
Central Committee 6871, 6893
Los Angeles County 6646-6649. 6951
San Francisco 6901, 6902, 6905
Twin Peaks Club 6871
District of Columbia 6219, 6225
Illinois:
Chicago :
Argo Club 6569-6571, 6573, 6574
Auto No. 1 Branch (also known as The Industrial Club and
Electromotive Branch) 6574-6580
Cacchione Branch 6577
PJlectromotive Branch (see Auto No. 1 Branch).
Industrial Club (see Auto No. 1 Branch).
Southwest Section 6577, 6582
LaGrange 6566
Michigan 6492, 6495, 6498, 6500
Detroit :
Michigan Avenue Club 6493
12th Street Club 6485
West Side Section Committee.- 6493, 6496
District Control Commission 617S
Language Commission 6499
Nationality Commission 6498, (>499
State Committee 6497
New York :
New York City :
Brooklyn 6189
Stuyvesant Club 6590
Review Commission 617!)
Ohio 6456
Cuyahoga County 6379
Oregon :
Portland 7040
North End Club 7031
Pennsylvania :
Eastern Pennsylvania 6357
Nationality Committee 6437, 6438
Western Pennsylvania 6456
Washington 7074
Seattle 7008
State Committee 6941, 6942, 7005
West Virginia 6178
Communist Political Association :
California 6900
District of Columbia 6221, 6222
Seattle, Wash., Queen Anne Branch 7022
U. N. Club 6235, 6236
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest 6183, 6195, 6202, 6233
Congress of American Women 6168, 6345, 6346
Council for Civic Unity 6905
Council on African Affairs 6290
Councils for Protection of Foreign Born 6146, 6150, 6151
Czechoslovak Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6298
Detroit Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6475
Distributive, Processing, and Office Workers of America, Local 35 6083
xiv INDEX
District 6 Committee to Defend Allan D. McNeil. (See Electrical, Radio,
and Machine Workers of America, United, District Six Committee To
Defend Allan D. McNeil.) Page
East Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6169, 6889, 6890
Eastern Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6155
East Side (Los Angeles) Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6217
Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, United 6168,
6274, 6277, 6278, 6453, 6583, 6596
District Six Committee To Defend Allan D. McNeil 6447, 6448
District 8, Antonia Sentner Defense Committee 6170
Local 430 (New York City) 6301
Local 1421 : 6659
Emergency Civil Liberties Committee 6202, 6290, 6359, 6360
Emma Lazarus AVomen's Federation 6604
Ethel Linn Defense Committee for the Repeal of the McCarran-Walter
Act 6853,6854
Eulalia Figueiredo Defense Committee 6165
Ferdinand Smith Defense Committee 61(^5
Finnish American Freedom Committee 6162,6165,6298
Finnish American Mutual Aid Society, IWO 6168
Finnish (Defense) Committee i 6170,6295
Fishermen and Allied Workers of America, International, Local 3 6997
Foundation of America 6581
Fred Williams Defense Committee. (See Automobile, Aircraft, and Agri-
cultural Implement Workers of America, United, Local 208, Fred Wil-
liams Defense Committee.)
Freedom of the Press Committee Against Deportation 6162, 6164, 6165
Frontier Book Store (Seattle) 6947
Garment Workers Union, International Ladies, Local 65 6671
General Motors Corp., Electromotive Division (LaGrange, 111.) 6575-6580
Greek-American Defense Committee : 6471
Greek (Defense) Committee 6170, 6295
Gus Polites Defense Committee 6470
Harbor Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (Los Angeles) 6796, 6797
Harisiades-Taffler Neighborhood Defense Committee 6298
Harlem Trade-Union Council 6302
Harry Bridges Defense Committee 6888
Hungarian-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6298
Hungarian American Defense Committee 6166
Hungarian Brotherhood, IWO 6168
Hungarian-Workmens Home Society 6662
Immigrants Technical Aid Bureau 6239
Imported Publications and Products 6338
Improved Benevolent and Protective Order of the Elks of the World 6203
Independent Progressive Party 6731
International Labor Defense 6152, 6242, 6611, 6(M4, 6976
International Union of Students 6268,6269
Second World Student Congress, August 1950, Prague 62(>8
International Workers Order 6168,6229,6230,6389
Polish section 6582
Italian-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6472
James Keller Defense Committee (Chicago) 6296, 6557, 6568, 6593, 6594
Jefferson School of Social Science 6281, 6595, 7002
Jewish-American Cultural Club (Los Angeles) 6762
Jewish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. (See Chicago Jewish
Committee for Protection of Foi'eign Born.)
Jewish People's Fraternal Order 6168
Philadelphia Council 6311-6313
John Santo Defense Counnittee 6165
Juditz Defense Committee. (See Paul Yuditch Defense Committee.)
Korean-American Deportees Defense Committee 6735
T^abor's Nonpartisan League 6274
Lenin School (Moscow) 6618,6620
Lithuanian American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6298
INDEX XV
Page
Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, International 6878
Federated Auxiliaries of Oregon 7002
Local 8 (Portland, Greg.) 6166, 6168
Local 37 (Los Angeles, Calif.) 6169
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (.see also East Side
(Los Angeles) Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6155,
6170, 6632, 6634, 6636-6638, 6644, 6655, 6662, 6670, 6671, 6682,
6691, 6695, 6699, 6700, 6702, 6706, 6707, 6714, 6743, 6745, 6752,
6755, 6759, 6764, 6785, 6786, 6793, 6797, 6806, 6810, 6818, 6827,
6833, 6834-6837, 6844, 6845, 6851, 6892, 6921.
Massachusetts Committee for the Revision of the McCarran- Walter Immi-
gration and Naturalization Act 6370
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born {see also Provisional
Committee for Youth Participation) 6155,
6162, 6164, 6190, 6463, 6464, 6469, 6474, 6475, 6484, 6491, 6493,
6495, 6496, 6498-6500, 6503, 6544, 6626.
Trade Union Committee 6498, 6500
Michigan Peace Council 6526
Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ()l.j5, 6162,
6548, 6549, 6555, 6566, 6567, 6569, 6588, 6589, 6598, 6602, 6603, 6626
Midwest Hotel Catering Corp 6594
Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers, International Union of 6756
Minneapolis Joint Committee Against Deportation 6297
Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born {see also Pro-
visional Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6155,
6608, 6609, 6612, 6613, 6615, 6626
Moses ResnikofE Defense Committee 6297
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 6205, 6206, 6574
National Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born 6146
National Committee for the Protection of West Indian Americans 6216
National Committee To Repeal the McCarran Acts 6146
National Committee to Win Amnesty for the Smith Act Victims 6253, 6537
National Council of American-Soviet Friendship 6168
Chicago Council of American-Soviet Friendship 6168
National Lawyers Guild 6168, 6202
National Negro Congress 6205, 6210, 6218, 6220, 6222
Brooklyn, N. Y., Council (1940 and 1941) 6218,6219
Washington, D. C, Council 6219, 6220, 6222
National Negro Labor Council 6218, 6675
Chicago 6169
Los Angeles 6922
National Nonpartisan Committee To Defend the Rights of the 12 Com-
munist Leaders 6599, 6600
National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans 6171,
6190, 6191, 6299-6301, 6346, G347
Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania 6435-6438
Nature Friends Camp (near Valley, Pa.) 6372
Nature Friends of America 6168
Needle Trades Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born 6856
New England Citizens Concerned for Peace 6252
New England ('ommittee for Protection of Foreign Born 6154,
6155, 6166, 6367-()370
New York City Consumers Council 6341, 6344, 6346, 6348
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6155
6157, 6166, 6286, 6292, 6327, 6:334, 6591, 6592
New York Trade Union Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6166, 6168
Nonpartisan Committee for Clemency for the Rosenbergs 6923
Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign P.orn 6155
<J164, 6166, 6167, 6170, 6867, 6872, 6876, 6877, 6899, 6914, 6915
Northwest Citizens' Defense Committee 7047
Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born {see also Washing-
ton State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6155, 616.5, (>947-(J949,
6953, 69.54, 6956, 6957, 6964, 6972, 6975, 6982, 6989, 6993, 6997, 6998
Office and Professional Workers of America, United 6983
Ohio Committee for Protectiim of Foreign Born 6155,
6168, 6246, 6378, 6381, 6383, 6456
Ohio ('oiiin!itt(M' for tli<> Defense of Civil Rights 6777
Ohio Provisional Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6246,6379,6387
XVl INDEX
Oregon Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. (See Committee for
Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born. ) P»w
Pacific Northwest Labor Sctiool 6498
Packinghouse Workers of America, United 6567
Page Engineering Plant, McCook, 111 6572, 6577
Paul Yuditch * Defense Committee 6167, 6168
Peggy Wellman Defense Committee 6470
People's Educational Center (Hollywood) 6671
Pete Nelson Defense Committee (Everett, Wash.) 6165
Philadelphia Committee for Defense of the Foreign Born '6361
Philadelphia Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6362
Philadelphia Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act and To
Defend Its Victims ^— 6364
Philadelphia Committee to Defend the Foreign Born. {See Philadelphia
Committee for Defense of the Foreign Born. )
Pittsburgh Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see also Western
Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6407
Podolski Defense Committee. (See Committee in Defense of Henry Po-
dolski. )
Polish- American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see also
American-Polish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6479
Polish-American Congress 6-581
Portland Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 7049
Presentations, Inc 6248, 0249
I'rogressive Party :
Michigan State Central Committee 6521
New York City 6168,6204,6212,6230
Pennsylvania 6356
Washington State 6949
Provisional Committee for Youth Participation (see also Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born) ' 6480, 6519
Provisional Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see also
Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6166
ResnikofE Defense Committee. (See Moses Resnikoff Defense Com-
mittee.)
Rose Nelson (Defense) Committee 6170,6295
Russian-American Society, San Francisco 6928
St. Louis Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6626
Sam and Fanny Manewitz Defense Committee 6622
See also:
Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law and the De-
fense of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Committee To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Stop De-
portation of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Sam Sweet Defense Committee. (See Automobile. Aircraft, and Agricul-
tural Implement Workers of America, United, Local 51 (Detroit), Sam
Sweet Defense Committee. )
San Diego Peace Forum 6730
Save Our Sons Committee 6571,6572
School for Contemporary Writers 6281
Seamen's Defense Committee 6290
Seattle Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 7049
Seattle Labor School 6948
Slavic American Youth Council 6258, 6259
Slovak Workers Society 6168
Socialist Unity Forum 62-55
Socialist Workers Party 6215
Sons and Daughters (Defense) Committee, The 6170,6295,6296
Sons and Daughters of the Foreign Born in the Fight Against Deporta-
tion 6303-6305
Sons of the American Revolution 6143
Southern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6877
Southern California Peace Crusade 6842
Southern Conference for Human Welfare 6213
Stanford University - 6924
1 Also spelled Juditz.
2 Referred to as Philadelphia Committee To Defend the Foreign Born.
INDEX xvii
Page
Stanley Nowak Defense Committee 6472
Tony Sentner Defense Committee 6297
Trade Union Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law 6825
Ukrainian American Fraternal Union, IWO 6259, 6261, 6262
Ukrainian (Defense) Committee 6170,6260,6295
Union Films 6249
United Ne^'ro and Allied Veterans of America 6204, 6288
U. S. Government :
Coast Guard 6290, 6291
Immigration and Naturalization Service 6135
Office of Price Administration, New York City 6198
United States Housing Administration, Washington 6198
United States Motors 6647
University of Washington 6948, 6949
Vincent Aiidrulis Defense Committee 6162, 6165, 6476
Washington (State) Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born 6942,
6949. (i!>r,i>. <;<».-,3, 6956, 6957, 6959. 6964. 6972, 6988, 7006, 7018, 7021,
7022. 7043. 7044, 7046. 7047, 7051, 7054, 7062, 7075.
Washington Commonwealth Federation 6947
Washington Pension Union 6948, 6974
Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see
also Pittsburgh Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6155,
6394, 6396, 6399, 6404, 6408, 6414, 6417, 6420, 6456
Western Pennsylvania Youth Committee for Peace 6803
Women's Committee to Free Katherine Hyndman 6169
Women's Peace and Unity Club 6612
Woodworkers of America, International 6993
World Federation of Democratic Youth 6265-6270
Northern Washington District Council 6974, 6975
World Peace Congress: Second Congress, Warsaw, Poland; 1950 (No-
vember) 6601
World Youth Conference (October 29-November 10, 1945; London)— 6264,6265
World Youth Congress : Second Congress, Budapest, September 2, 1949 6802,
6803
World Youth Festival :
First (Prague, 1947) 6258-6260
Second (Budapest, August 14-18, 1949) 6266
Third (East Berlin, Aug. 5-19, 1951) 6267
Youns Communist League 6878
Michigan 6488, 6492, 6493
Yuditch Defense Committee. (See Paul Yuditch Defense Committee.)
Yugoslav (Defense) Committee 6170,6295
PUBLICATIOXS
Amnesty Trumpet 6253
Chicago Star 6550
Coalition for Freedom and Democracy 7005
Communist Immigration Peril, The 6149
Contemporary Reader (quarterly) 6625
Daily People's World (Richmond) 6923
Daily Worker 6618, 6625
Michigan edition 6493
Defender. The 6484
Deportation Drive Versus the Bill of Rights, The (pamphlet) 6170
Deportation Terror, a Weapon to Gag America, The 6171
For a Lasting Peace, for a People's Democracy 6338
Freedom (New York City) 1 6204
Glos Ludowy (People's Voice) 6169
Hungarian Daily Journal 6230
In Defense of the Right To Defend Foreign Born Americans 6420
In the Shadow of Lilierty 6170
Inhumanity of the Walter-McOarran Law, The 6420
Inside Story of the Legion 6211
International Affairs 6338
Korean Independence 6840
Liberator 6331
xviii INDEX
Page
Mau Is Sentenced to Death by the Walter-McCarran Act, The 6420
March of Labor 7029, 7030
Morning Freiheit 6168
Narodni (ilasnik (Croatian-American newspaper) 6169
National Guardian 6169, 6196
New Forward (Uj Elore) 6230
New Opportunities in the Fight for Peace and Democracy 6499
New York Beacon 6157
Ohio Defender 6387
Russky Golos 6234, 6333
Victims of the Walter-McCarran Law and How They Are Defended 6171
Walter-McCarran Law — Police-State Terror for Foreign-Born Ameri-
cans, The (pamphlet) 6170
Walter-McCarran Law — Straight Jacket for American Liberties, The
(pamphlet) 6287
Washington Afro-American 6205
Young Conmiunists in Action (pamphlet) 6878, 6879
o
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