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Full text of "Communist tactics among veterans' groups (testimony of John T. Pace) Hearing before the Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Eighty-second Congress, first session. July l3, 1951"

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JULY 13, 1951 

Printed for the u.^e of tl e Committee on Un-American Activit: 




DEC 28 1951 



JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia, Chairman 
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania HAROLD H. VELDB, Illinois 


CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California 

JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jb., Tennessee CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel 

Louis J. Russell^ Senior Investigator 

John W. Carrington, Clerk of Committee 

Raphael I. Nixon^ Director of Research 


(Testimony of John T. Pace) 

FEIDAY, JULY 13, 1951 

United States House of Representatives, 

Committee on Un-American Acttvities, 

Washington^ D. C. 

public hearing 

The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call, at 
10 : 40 a. m. in room 226, Old House Office Building, Hon. John S. 
Wood (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present: Representatives John S. Wood 
(chairman), Francis E. Walter, Clyde Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr. 
(appearance as noted in transcript), Harold H. Velde, Bernard W. 
Kearney, Donald L. Jackson. 

Staff members present: Frank S. Ta vernier, Jr., counsel; Thomas 
W. B'eale, Sr., assistant counsel; Donald T. Appell, investigator; Ra- 
phael I. Nixon, director of research; John W. Carrington, clerk; and 
A. S. Poore, editor. 

Mr. Wood. Let the committee be in order. 

Let the record disclose that there are present the following members 
of the committee: Messrs. Walter, Doyle, Velde, Kearney, Jackson, 
and Wood. 

Who are you going to call, Mr. Tavenner? 

Mr. Tavenner. There is one witness here today whose appearance 
from force of circumstances has been continued several times during 
the Hollywood and the Baltimore hearings, and I would like to 
interrupt the Baltimore hearings to call him now. It is Mr. John T. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Pace, will you stand and be sworn, please. Do you 
solemnly swear the evidence you give this committee shall be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Pace. I do. 

Mr. Wood. Have a seat. 


(Note. — Mr. Pace was presented with a transcript of his testimony 
taken in executive session by the Committee on Un-American Activ- 
ities on August 23, 1949, and, after identifying it as his testimony, he 
was asked the following question by the chairman :) 

Mr. Wood. Is it the testimony that you gave, substantially as you 
gave it, or are there any corrections that you want to make in it now ? 




Mr. Pace. Well, I would appreciate the opportunity of rephrasing a 
couple of paragraphs in it, and adding a little bit to it, inasmuch as 
before I was just picked out of the clear sky. 

(Note. — The testimony of John T. Pace and Joseph Zack Kornfeder 
heretofore taken was directed to be incorporated in and made a part 
of this hearing and is as follows :) 

Testimony of John T. Pace and Joseph Zack Kornfeder, on Tues- 
day, August 23, 1949, Before the Special Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representa- 
tives, IN Executive Session 

The special subcommittee of one met, pursuant to call, in room 226 
Old House Office Building, Washington, D. C, on A.iigust 23, 1949, at 
10 : 30 a. m., Hon. John S. Wood (chairman) , presiding. 

Committee member present: Representative John S. Wood. 

Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Louis J. 
Russell, senior investigator; and Benjamin Mandel, [then] director 
of research. 

Mr. Wood. A special subcommittee of one is sitting this morning to 
hear testimony concerning Communist tactics among veterans' groups. 
The record will disclose that this is a subcommittee of one, consisting 
of the chairman. 

Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, the witness this morning is Mr. John 
T. Pace, of Tennessee. 

Mr. Wood. Do you solemnly swear that evidence and testimony 
which you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Pace. I do. 


Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that Mr. Tavenner, 
the counsel, and I have other commitments today, I request that Mr. 
Mandel, director of research, conduct the examination of the witness. 

Mr. Wood. It is so ordered. 

Mr. Mandel. Mr. Pace, will you give us your address? 

Mr. Pace. Centerville, Tenn., Route 1. 

Mr. Mandel. When and where were you born ? 

Mr. Pace. Hickman, Ky. 

Mr. Mandel. When? 

Mr. Pace. November 12, 1897. 

Mr. Mandel. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the 
Conmiunist Pai'ty? 

Mr. Pace. I have been. 

Mr. Mandel. When did you join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Pace. Approximately in the s]ning of 1931 — or sometime in 
the winter of 1930 or 1031. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you tell us what official positions you held in the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Pace. Well, at first I was unit organizer of the Lincoln Park 
unit of the Michigan district of the Ford section. Then I was assigned 
to unem[)loyed council work — chairman of the unemj)loyed council 
in Lincoln Park. A short time after, I attended the workers' school. 

Mr. Mandel. In what city? 


Mr. Pace. At the workers' camp in Farmington, Mich., and I was 
made a membei- of section 7 of the Communist Party known as the 
Ford section. Then I became a member of the district committee. 

Mr. Mandel. Of what organization? 

Mr. Pace. Of district 7 of the Communist Party in Michigan. 
Later on I was made a member of the district bureau, and in 1932 I 
was made the organizer of the Workers' Ex-Servicemen*s League of 

Mr. Mandel. What was the Workers' Ex-Ser\ncemen's League? 

Mr. Pace. It was the veterans' organization, organized and con- 
trolled by the Communist Party, 

Mr. Mandel. What was the unemployed council? 

Mr. Pace. The unemployed council was the organization of un- 
employed, organized and controlled by the Communist Party. I was 
State organizer of the unemployed council in the State of Michigan. 

Mr. Maxdel. Were you at one time active in the "bonus march" 
of 1932? 

Mr. Pace. I was. 

Mr. Mandel. When did you leave the Connnunist Party? 

Mr. Pace. In the early part of 1935, officially. I had ceased ac- 
tivities in late 1934 and made the public announcement in 1935 through 
the Detroit News. 

Mr. Mandel. The record will show that the Daily Worker of May 
7, 1936, page 3, carries a notice of expulsion of John Pace from the 
Connnunist Party. Mr. Pace, sometimes referred to as George Pace, 
is also mentioned as a leader of the left-wing contingent, as a leader 
of the bonus march, in the Dailv Worker of June 6, June 18, June 
22, and July 4, 1932. The Washington Post of July 31, 1932, page 
3, shows John T. Pace as one of tlie leaders of the bonus march. A 
book by John Henry Bartlett, entitled ''The Bonus ]March and the 
Xew Deal," shows John Pace addressing left-wingers on page 40. 

Mr. Pace, the committee is interested principally in your activities 
in connection with the bonus march of 1932. Is it your opinion that 
this question is of current importance? 

Mr. Pace. Well, yes. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you explain? 

Mr. Pace. Well, because of the magnitude of this bonus march and 
the attitude as created by the public toward the bonus march, it was 
brought about that many mistakes were made by both the leadership 
of the bonus march and the Govermnent — both on the national and 
local scale — and a resume of the whole procedure would be educational 
in the future handling of any similar situations. 

Mr. Mandel. Do you believe that your activities in the bonus march 
fitted in Avith the policies of the party in connection wdth the move- 
ment among the unemployed? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the policies which T had to carry out as a party 
member in the bonus march Avere identical with the policies pursued 
by the part}- in all other mass undertakings. 

Mr. ^Iandel. Prior to the bonus march, what activities did you 
carry out among the unemployed? 

Mr. Pace. AVell, I organized the "hunger march" to Lansing. 

Mr. Mandel. About when was that? 

Mr. Pace. That was in 1931, I was sent to Ann Arbor, Mich., 
and organized a strike of the WPA relief workers in Ann Arbor and 


was busy most of tlie time in organizing unemployed councils tlirough- 
out the Detroit area and organized demonstrations at the various 
relief stations throughout Detroit. 

Mr, Mandel. Then you consider the bonus march as being supple- 
mental to that movement ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right — the party activities in the bonus marches. 
The hunger marches to a certain degree laid the basis for the bonus 

Mr. Mandel. At this point, I would like to introduce another wit- 
ness, Mr. Joseph Zack Kornfeder. Mr. Kornfeder, you have been 
previously sworn ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Yes. 


Mr. Mandel. Were you a member of the central committee of the 
Communist Party at the time of the bonus march and previous thereto ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. I was a member of the central committee of the 
Communist Party at the time of the bonus march. I was a member 
of the New York district committee of the Communist Party and 
participated in meetings of the central committee of the party. 

Mr. Mandel. Mr. Kornfeder, could you give us a background from 
the standpoint of the central committee of the Communist Party that 
would indicate the aims and purposes of the party in the bonus march ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. The Communist Party at that time concentrated its 
entire effort to take advantage of the depression then existing in the 
United States and for that purpose had organized a special front 
known as the unemployed councils. Supplementary to that effort of 
taking advantage of the depression, they had also organized a special 
front to operate among the veterans. This front was then known as 
the Workers' Ex-Servicemen's League. 

The Workers' Ex-Servicemen's League, early in its existence, had 
raised the issue of the payment of the bonus clue the ex-servicemen and 
needled the regular veterans' organizations through propaganda and 
otherwise, to get them on their side of this issue of the bonus in order 
to extend their influence among the veterans. 

Mr. Mandel. It would seem that the first contingent of veterans 
started out from Oregon sometime in the middle of May 1932. Would 
you say that this group was Communist inspired ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Well, this group may have been affected by Com- 
munist agitation, but it was certainly not led by Communists. This 
group was a spontaneous manifestation of the desire of the veterans 
to obtain payment of the bonus right then and there. 

Mr. Mandel. As other contingents began to participate, what posi- 
tion did the party find itself in ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Tlie spontaneous outburst of the bonus march cre- 
ated a crisis in the central committee of the Communist Party, be- 
cause the party, although working for the creation of such a move- 
ment, had, as it were, missed the boat in getting it started ; so it started 
by itself and the problem then arose as to what could be done to get 
jiold of this runaway movement and catch up with it. 

Mr. Mandel. Were any members of the central committee of the 
party assigned specifically to supervise the policy of this movement 
at that time ? 


Mr. KoRNFEDER, Yes, there was one assigned to supervise and direct 
the Workers' Ex-Servicemen's League and its policies — William W. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you tell us who William W. Weinstone was ? 

Mr. KoRNFEDER. William W. Weinstone was then a leading mem- 
ber of the central connnittee of the Communist Party and a former 
representative of the Communist Party of the United States to the 
executive committee of the Communist International in Moscow. 

Mr. Mandel. The record will show that the Voice of Labor for 
June 2, 1922, page 4, shows William W. Weinstone as a member of 
the central executive committee of the Workers' Party of America, 
predecessor of the Communist Party, U.S.A.; the International 
Press Correspondence (Inprecorr) for August 1, 1928, page 750, 
shows William W. Weinstone as a member of the program commission 
of the Communist International. The same publication for Novem- 
ber 21, 1928, page 151:7, shows him as a member of the international 
control connnission of the Comnuinist International. The Commu- 
nist, official theoretical organ of the Communist Party, U.S.A., for 
November 1931, page 960, shows Mr. Weinstone as a member of the 
secretariat of the Communist Party, U. S. A. 

Was anyone else assigned to this work to assist Mr. Weinstone ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Yes. Weinstone operated in the Workers' Ex- 
Servicemen's League through Levin. 

Mr. Mandel. Emanuel Levin? 

Mr. Kornfeder. That is riglit ; and Stember. 

Mr. Mandel. Is that Samuel Stember? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Yes. 

Mr. Mandel. And who assisted Weinstone? Was any member of 
the central executive committee assigned to assist Weinstone ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Well, Weinstone was to work under the direction 
of the political bureau of the central committee and specifically under 
the direction of the then representative of the Communist Interna- 
tional known by various names — one whose name is Alpi. 

Mr. Mandel. The record will show that Mario Alpi, also known 
as Fred Brown and Mario Mariani, was a representative to this coun- 
try of the Communist International during the period of the early 
thirties. Have you ever heard of the name of Israel Amter, and 
what would be his connection with this movement? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Israel Amter was then a member of the central 
committee of the Communist Party charged with supervising activi- 
ties among the unemployed, which was to be carried out through 
the unemployed councils. Inasmuch as the unemployed councils 
were a part of the whole movement among the unemployed, they were 
made to back the bonus-march activities of the party and participate 
in it. 

Mr. Mandel. The record will show that Israel Amter has been 
identified by Earl Browcler, general secretary of the Communist 
Party, U. S. A., on September 5, 1939, before the Special Committee 
on Un-American Activities, as a member of the national committee of 
the Communist Party, U. S. A. Before a House Committee Investi- 
gating Un-American Activities in November and December 1930, Is- 
rael Amter identified himself as a member of the political com- 
mittee of the Communist Party and district organizer for New York. 
The proceedings of the Fifth Congress of the Communist Interna- 


tional held June 17 to July 8, 1924, show Israel Amter as a delegate. 
The book, I Confess, by Benjamin Gitlow, former member of the 
central executive committe of the Communist Party, shows Israel 
Amter as a fellow member of the central committee and as party rep- 
resentative in Moscow. See pages 133, 152, 155, and 231. The record 
will furtlier show that on March 6, 1930, a hunger march was held,, 
supported by the unemployed councils and the Communist party 
throughout the country. The Daily Worker of February 3, 1932, 
page 1, carries a headline, "Into the streets tomorrow against hunger 

Now Mr. Pace, you have heard Mr. Kornfeder's sketch of the 
background of this movement, would you say that it was influenced 
at all by the various marches on Washington, organized by the Com- 
munists ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, I think all of the Communist activities among the 
unemployed and these local marches to State governments and the 
larger marches to the National Capitol, had planted the idea of these 
marches in the minds of millions of people. 

Mr. Mandel. Did the Communists in some cases occupy State cap- 

Mr. Pace. Well, I remember in one instance where the hunger 
marchers to Lansing, Mich., slept on the capitol grounds. 

Mr. Mandel. Now, Mr. Pace, will you describe in detail the begin- 
ning and the organization of the Communist contingent of the bonus 
march as it operated from Michigan? 

Mr. Pace. Well, a few^ months prior to the bonus march, w^e or- 
ganized the Workers' Ex-Servicemen's League. 

Mr. Mandel. About what month did you say that was? 

Mr. Pace. I would say that it was around the first part of the year 
1932. And in the general slogans connecting up the slogans on un- 
employment insurance, and so forth, the slogan was also developed 
demanding an immediate cash payment of the bonus in the early 
months of the year the main slogans were to hold mass meetings 
and local demonstrations and send telegrams to your Congressmen 
and Senators demanding immediate cash payment of the bonus. I 
believe it was the latter part of April or the first of May that we 
began to raise the question of a march to Washington. 

Mr. Mandel. Who raised the question, as far as you remember? 

Mr. Pace. The Daily Worker, Avhich was a guide to party activi- 
ties throughout the various sections of the country. 

Mr. Mandel. Was the matter discussed at all in the district com- 
mittee of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Pace. At a district plenum held sometime in the early part 
of May they had on the agenda at that time the question of the vet- 
erans, at which meeting the question was then seriously discussed as 
to the possibility of a bonus march to Washington and from that 
time on the program centered on a march to Washington. 

Mr. Mandel. Now, will you describe in detail what took place there- 

Mr. Pace. Well, as the news began to come in that there was a 
movement on foot of veterans going to Washington, many schemes 
were tried to prevent the veterans from going to Washington, particu- 
larly in Detroit — the Wayne County council of the American Legion 
sponsored a i)ara(le of veterans. The plan of this parade was to parade 


ty city hall where they would be welcomed and addressed by the then 
mayor, Frank Murphy, then proceed to the Veterans Building, where 
a mass meeting would be held. The party immediately called a party 
fraction where they discussed plans of taking over this parade. I 
was assigned to the task with Leonard Woods, a Negro veteran, and 
Walter Eicker. We immediately got out a leaflet, and took our party- 
member veterans with members of the unemployed council, and dis- 
tributed ourselves among this parade with this leaflet. We gave each 
participant in the parade a leaflet and we adopted the party slogans 
such as ""We demand the cash payment of the bonus," "We demand 
unemployment insurance,'- "We demand transportation to Washing- 
ton," and so forth. 

Mr. Mandel. What was the main slogan? 

Mr. Pace. "We demand the immediate cash payment of the bonus." 

Mr. Mandel. Was there special emphasis on the march to 

Mr. Pace. Yes. That was one of the demands. So the anxiety of 
the men to go to Washington and the economic pressure that was 
placed upon them was such that our slogans had an immediate effect, 
and because of our influence in this march the parade was not stopped 
at city hall and the auditorium was closed at the Veterans Building, 
so when the commander of the ])arade spoke to the veterans and told 
them that they had done a good job, that this was the kind of action 
that would get the bonus and he himself adjourned the meeting, I then 
took the steps and made an appeal to the veterans to march to Wash- 
ington. But prior to this time I had established a headquarters across 
the street from the Veterans Building under the name of the Workers' 
Ex-Servicemen's League and had registration cards prepared to regis- 
ter all veterans who wanted to march to Washington. So we took 
over the meeting immediately and went across the street and set up a 
desk, and girls of the Young Communist League were assigned to 
i-egister all veterans who wished to march to Washington. We didn't 
iisk them for any discharge papers or identification. 

Mr. Mandel. How many persons took part in the Legion parade, 

Mr. Pace, t would say around 300 or 400. 

Mr. Mandel. How many Communists took part ? 

Mr. Pace. I would say possibly 8 or 10. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you proceed with what happened. 

Mr. Pace. So, in the meantime we were making arrangements for a 
mass meeting in the Cass Technical High School. 

Mr. Mandel. Do you have the date of that meeting? 

Mr. Pace. No; I don't have the exact date; but it was around the 
27th or 28th of May. 

Mr. Mandel. The record will show that the Daily Worker of May 
37, 1932, page 1, describes a meeting of veterans in the Cass Technical 
High School in Detroit held on May 23, 1932. Will you proceed. 

Mr. Pace. Thousands of leaflets were distributed announcing this 
meeting, and approximately 1,500 came to the meeting, where speeches 
were made on behalf of a march to Washington by me and Judge 
Edward Jeffries. A bonus-march committee was elected at that time 
and I was elected the contingent commander. 

Mr. Mandel. Would you say that the party group ran this meeting? 

Mr. Pace. It certainly did. 

92286—51 2 


Mr. Mandel. Did they select tlie committee and officers? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the i^arty has a method of appearing to elect com- 
mittees by offering proposals from the party and that is the manner 
in which we elected this committee. In other words, I picked the 
committee and made the proposal to the membership and they voted 
for it. 

Mr. Mandel. Did you get any instructions from the district com- 
mittee of the party on whom to select ? 

Mr. Pace. No ; that was in the party fraction's hands, but they were 
appointed by the district committee, which consisted of myself, 
Eicker, and Woods. 

Mr. Mandel. In other words, the party fraction ran the entire 
meeting ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right — where immediate plans were set for the 
march to Washington to start the following morning. 

Mr. Mandel. After the meeting, did you report what happened to 
the office of the Communist Party in Detroit ? 

Mr. Pace. I reported the action to Rudolph Baker, the district 
organizer of the Communist Party of Michigan. 

Mr. Mandel. What happened next? 

Mr. Pace. Well, on June 1, the morning of June 1, the call was sent 
out to meet at the Workers' Ex-Servicemen's League headquarters. 

Mr. Mandel. Do you remember the address of the headquarters ? 

Mr. Pace. 1 do not remember the number, but it was on Jefferson 
Avenue East, op]30site the Veterans Building in Detroit. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you proceed ? 

Mr. Pace. We expected over 1,000 veterans, and. there was a terrific 
downpour of rain all morning. About 450 veterans showed up for 
this parade. We immediately divided them into contingents and 
placed a member of the party fraction in charge of each contingent, 
together with two nonparty members who showed militancy and 
ability in leadership, and proceeded to march to city hall, where street- 
cars were commandeered and rode to the city limits, about a mile 
from the railroad yards. There we were told by the Pennsylvania 
Railroad police' force and the Detroit police force that no trans- 
portation was available. After a pep meeting, we proceeded to march 
to the railroad yards and upon our arrival found a freight train of 
gondolas ready to transport us out of Michigan. 

INIr. Mandel. Mr. Pace, who said that the group should commandeer 
the streetcars ? Was that in line with Communist Party policies and 
tactics ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, any other method would have been out of line with 
Communist Party tactics. The party tried to instill in the minds of the 
workers that all these things were the result of the labor of the workers 
and that they had a right to commandeer them and take them. 

Mr. Mandel. Did you make speeches along the line in conformity 
with the party's policy ? 

Mr. Pace. I did. 

Mr. Mandeiv. What was the tenor of such speeches ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, I was instructed to act as a veteran, not as a party 
member. I was just to act as a veteran and leave the high political 
slogans out for the time being. The party realized that these veterans 
were members of the American Legion and other veteran organizations 
and that they were very sensitive to unpatriotic remarks. Therefore, 


we were to use softer phrases — and my story to the veterans was that 
the Government had all kinds of money to spend on the repair, up- 
keep, and expenses of these railroad companies during the war, but 
we, the veterans who fought for the preservation of these things, 
were not allowed to ride on them by permission, so, therefore, our only 
alternative was to ride them without permission. 

Mr. Mandel. In other words, the party policy was to encourage 
violation of law ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. The party instruction was to support 
the demands of veterans in all of their struggles and specifically where 
their actions were self-initiated in defiance of the law. I might add 
here that in support of this movement, the party machine got into 
action to mobilize the organizations of its own. such as the Interna- 
tional Workers' Order, the International Labor Defense, the Workers' 
International Eelief. and the Young Communist League, to support 
the bonus marchers in such things as housing and legal assistance in 
all the cities throughout the march. 

Mr. Maxdel. Did some of these organizations provide funds ? 

Mr. Pace. These organizations participated in a sort, of tag day — 
providing canisters and marching along the street collecting funds. 

Mr. Mandel. Did they provide food ? 

Mr. Pace. When we arrived in Toledo, the Workers' International 
Kelief had sleeping quarters provided for the marchers — also supper 
was prepared for the bonus marchers. 

Mr. Mandei.. Will you proceed with the developments of the march ? 

Mr. Pace. Well the party, in line with its general plan, had or- 
ganized a mass meeting in Toledo, which the bonus marchers at- 
tended that evening and a delegate was sent to the mayor and the 
railroad officials demanding transportation out of Toledo. 

Mr. Mandel. Was the party interested primarily in the bonus 
issue when it arrived in a city like Toledo, or did it attempt to capital- 
ize the stituation in any way ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, it attempted to capitalize the situation by con- 
forming to its general policy of creating as much drama as could 
possibly be created in order to focus the eyes of as many people upon 
the magnitude of this march as could be done. 

Mr. Maxdp:l. What do you mean by dramatize? 

Mr. Pace. Well, by having parades, meetings, placards, slogans — 
making lots of noise. 

Mr. Mandel. What would they accomplish in towns on the way 
by such tactics? 

Mr. Pace. They accomplished their main purpose of attracting 
attention of the great masses of people. 

Mr. Mandel. Did they get additional contingents that way? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, I would say they did. For instance, Toledo re- 
ported about 100 marchers ready to join the delegation, but by the 
time we left, it had swelled to 200. 

Mr. ]\Iandel. Did they raise money this way ? 

Mr. Pace. The Workers' International Relief, unemployed coun- 
cils, and the Young Communist League were busy with the canisters 
at all meetings, parades, and so forth, collecting funds. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you proceed with your account ? 

Mr. Pace. Our delegations were again told that no transporta- 
tion could be provided, so on the following morning we began to 


march toward the railroad yards and upon arrival found a train 
waiting to take us farther. 

Upon arrival in Cleveland, we again found that sleeping quarters 
had been provided, and food, by the Workers' International Relief 
and they had also secured a truck and had gathered a truckload of 
-food, sandwiches, and so forth, to accompany the bonus marchers to 
Washington, with the sign "Workers' International Relief" on the 
truck and there w^e were joined by another party fraction of the Cleve- 
land district and were instructed to contact the district organizer of 
the Ohio district. So again, the same procedure was followed; the 
delegations went to the mayor of Cleveland and to the railroad offi- 
cials for transportation and were refused — so we proceeded to march 
to the railroad yards, after we had been joined by the Toledo and 
Cleveland delegations, which numbered at that time around 900. and 
there we found a ditferent situation. We found the determination on 
the part of the officials of the railroad company to refuse to furnish 
transportation any further, and the prayer we had had all along we 
felt then had begun to be answered. The going had been a little too 
easy to suit the leadership, which was the Communist leadership, so 
quite a stay developed there. 

We were determined to fight it out and the officers in charge were 
determined we wouldn't get any further. We held meetings and had 
speakers and had parades, and the party organized meetings through- 
out Cleveland and various districts, demanding that the mayor and 
the railroad company get us transportation, and in a last meeting on 
the grounds of the railroad yards, we elected a committee of 25 to con- 
tact the officials of the railroad company. Well, at 11 o'clock that 
night they said for me to come up and see them. So we demanded a 
committee of 25. After an hour's discussion we were still informed 
that all the trains had been rerouted, and that no train would be com- 
ing through the yards, and that they didn't intend to furnish transpor- 
ation. Then on the morning — I believe it was the morning — of the 
4th, June 4, I received a call to the party office and was told to get in 
touch with Emanuel Levin in Washington for instructions. Prior to 
this, we had organized groups to take over switches, engines, in the 
yards and a group of 75 took over the roundhouse. While I was at 
party headquarters in Cleveland, the police had succeeded in taking 
these committees off the trains and out of the roundhouse and had 
taken them over again. 

When I came back and found this situation, I immediately called a 
meeting and we went into the yards and took the engines back from 
the police and ran the police out of the roundhouse — we took full pos- 
session of the yards. 

Mr. Mandel. Would you say that this policy of taking over private 
property was conscious or just accidental?^ 

Mr. Pace, Well, on our part it was conscious. It was something w^e 
had sort of been praying for as a preliminary training to the masses on 
how to do these things and to build in their minds a hatred for private- 
owned property and Government control. So that created a situation 
where the officials had to provide transportation or else they would be 
confronted with a pretty bad situation in Cleveland. They decided 

^ Sop p. 1940, for enlMrgeinent upon answer to this question. 


to drive lis out of Cleveland and that evening they came down and 
took over the eno;ines and took over the railroad yiuxls, set up machine 
guns on the tracks under floodlight in the roundhouse, and began to 
give us pretty strict orders. This compelled them to use the entire 
police force of Cleveland, with the result, according to the papers the 
following morning, that many business places in Cleveland were 
robbed and much dissatisfaction arose among the citizenry or populace 
of Cleveland, which made us verv gleeful. 

Mr. Makdel. The record will show that on May 17, 1932, the Daily 
Worker carried a call for the national committee of the Workers' Ex- 
Servicemen's League for a march on Washington to report there on 
June 8, 1932. Will yon proceed ? 

Mr. Pace. It was ; at least we took it to be more or less evident, that 
they were trying to keep our contingent from reaching Washington 
by that date because we seemed to be the only really organized group 
that was going to get into Washington as one piece, and of course 
we were just as determined to try to get there by that date, although 
we were much more satisfied to' develop these struggles in the line 
of march than we were to make the demonstration in Washington on 
the 8th — they were more important to us. Because of the numerous 
mass meetings and parades and because of the publicity received by 
this action on the part of the officials of Cleveland and the railroad 
company that night in the yards, by depriving the citizens of Cleve- 
land of any protection whatsoever, bringing tens of thousands of 
citizens to the scene, was exactly wiiat the party wanted, to dramatize 
the whole situation. We then decided that we had obtained our pur- 
pose and proceeded to march out of Cleveland inasmuch as the trains 
liad all been rerouted and there was no possibility of getting a ride. 

We proceeded to march to a ball park some 6 or 8 miles out, where 
Ave were fed from the truck of the Workers' International Relief, 
and slept and rested until the following afternoon. Due to the ex- 
periences of the Cleveland situation, the whole attitude of the rail- 
road officials and local city officials had been changed and we were 
provided transportation from there on to Washington without any 
difficulty. In many cities, food and hot coffee were provided — but 
this was given us on the outskirts of the city. 

Mr. Mandel. Did you contact party headquarters in Washington 
when you arrived in Washington? 

Mr. Pace. I contacted Emanuel Levin — which were my instructions 
upon arrival — who was in charge of National Professional Bonus 
Maich Committee assigned by the party. 

Mr. Maxdel. Was there a headquarters for the Workers' Ex- 
Servicemen's League in Washington ? 

Mr. Pace. I don't know about a headquarters for the Workers' Ex- 
Servicemen's League. It was a joint headquarters of the Workers' 
Ex-Servicemen's League and the National Professional Bonus March 
Committee at 905 I Street NW. 

]Mr. ]\LvNDEL. Could you summarize what were your general party 
instructions in connection with the bonus march and the instructions 
given to the other contingents? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the party line was laid down in the Daily Worker. 
Of course the instructions, by virtue of the mechanism of the party, 
would be sent to all distiicts, as it would be sent to the Michigan dis- 
trict, and the tactics to be used would be the same in all parts of the 


country, I might add here that where the party had sufficient or- 
ganizational strength, these tactics were carried out. 

Mr, Mandel. Tlie record will show instructions for bonus march 
contingents in the Daily Worker of June 3, 1932, page 3, The Daily 
Worker of June 8, 1932, announced that "The Workers Ex-Service- 
men's League are resorting to mass action." Will you describe for 
us the developments that took place in Washington and the party's 
policy ? 

Mr. Page. The first thing, we contacted Levin at the National Pro- 
fessional Bonus March Committee's headquarters where a party frac- 
tion was called to develop a strategy for our work in Washington and 
to decide upon the right tactics to carry them out. 

Mr. Mandel. Who addressed this meeting? 

Mr. Pace. Emanuel Levin. This party fraction was composed of 
party members from Chicago, headed by a Negro by the name of 
Gardner, leading local party member from New York, and myself, 
Woods, and Eicker from Michigan, Quite a discussion developed as to 
w^iether we would distribute our contingent among the already estab- 
lished camps or whether we would settle in one camp of our own. 
After this discussion, we concluded that we should settle in a camp to 
ourselves in order to create a basis for operations. We had learned 
that a part of our contingent had already been sent to Camp Anacostia 
and about 100 had been Ijilleted in Camp Bartlett, I immediately con- 
tacted Camp Bartlett and registered there as a bonus marcher. 

Mr. Mandel, Would you say that the Communist-controlled con- 
tingent was strictly limited to veterans ? 

Mr. Pace. I believe that it would run at least 90 percent veterans. 
There is no question but that there were some in there who were not 
veterans because we registered everyone who came in and said he was 
a veteran. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you proced ? 

Mr. Pace. Upon my contact with Camp Bartlett, I found a situation 
there that was depressing to the number of veterans billeted in that 
camp. It seems that one leader of the camp had become deposed and 
a Major French was the provost marshal of the camp. It also seemed 
that a major part of the food was given to Anacostia and that the cook- 
ing in the camp wasn't satisfactory. In other words, there was quite 
a confusion and dissatisfaction in camp. I immediately sensed that 
and called a meeting of my contingent, dividing them into groups and 
giving instructions, and told them how to penetrate other contingents 
in the camp to organize a mass meeting that evening in the camp. 

I proceeded then back to headquarters in Washington, where I re- 
ported the conditions and was instructed by Levin to go back to this 
meeting and raise the question of a march of all the veterans in Camp 
Bartlett to Washington, 

In the meantime, I went out and looked for a place to billet and 
found very suitable buildings at Thirteenth and B Streets SW, In 
the meantime, my contingent, through its committees, had been busy 
agitating for this meeting. When I arrived just before time to start 
the meeting, I found that all of the contingent in the camp had gathered 
for this meeting. I appealed to these men to march on to Washington, 
D. C, telling them that I had secured headquarters and a place to stay 
and that it was foolish to travel hundreds and thousands of miles and 
be stopped 8 or 10 miles from Washington, 


Mr. Mandel. These buildings that you spoke of — what kind of 
buildings were they ? 

Mr. Pace. They seemed to be former apartment buildings which 
had been condemned to be removed for the Federal program in this 

Mr. Mandel. Who owned the buildings ? 

Mr. Pace. I don't know whether they were Federal or local. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you proceed. 

Mr. Pace. I also found a very bad situation of the police rule in the 
camp. They had a big, tall Texas guy as sheriff, with a number of 
deputies, who was conducting a most ruthless camjiaign against any 
friend of the veterans in the camp whatsoever. The top leadership 
of the Michigan contingent were in jail when I arrived in the camp. 
1 went to the jail, upon receiving this information, and informed 
these leaders whom I had put in charge of this contingent that they 
didn't have any set ordinances in Camp Bartlett, they didn't have any 
right to appoint a sheriff, deputies, and so forth, and that we refused 
to recognize them. I told my men to tell this sheriff to "Go to hell," 
and come on wdth me, which they did. 

The following morning, after the meeting that evening, we took our 
blankets and our mess kits that had been issued to us in the camp 
and proceeded to march to Washington. Major French and two 
District of Columbia policemen stepped in the gateway and told us 
that we could not go to Washington. Of course, we knew that 3 
people couldn't stop 700 or 800, so we just pushed them out of the 
way and proceeded to march to Thirteenth and B Streets SW. As 
soon as we occupied the grounds, or shortly thereafter, we were visited 
by the District of Columbia Police Commissioner, General Glassford. 
He immediately became very fraternal with us. We were busy build- 
ing furnaces to cook on, cleaned out the apartment, took shower baths, 
and he furnished us M'ith the necessary straw ticks, straw, and cook- 
ing utensils, and food for the first real supper that we had had since 
we left; and we were quite disturbed by the fact that the men began 
to think quite a bit of General Glassford, which didn't do our cause 
any too nnich good. And we found it rather difficult to carry on a 
smear campaign against a man who was giving them everything they 
asked for. On the other hand, the other section of our contingent 
that was directed to Camp Anacostia, where they were treated rather 
roughly, searched, and forced to stand under guard all night, had a 
completely different attitude. They had no way of knowing how to 
contact the other contingent until it had appeared in the newspapers 
that we had established headquarters at Thirteenth and B Streets SW. 
Then they began to evacuate the camp in pairs and small groups, and 
so forth, until all of them had come into our contingent. After 2 or 3 
days of this treatment, they proved to be the most militant element 
in our camp and were very anxious for some kind of a program to 
go back and carry out in the Anacostia camp. 

Mr. Mandel. Let the record show that the Daily Worker of June 
21, 1932, page 1, describes veteran seizure of Government buildings. 
The Daily Worker of June 22, 1932, page 3, mentioned Pace as "elected 
corps commander of the seized building area." The Daily Worker of 
July 4, 1932, page 1, carries the headline "Vets Cheer George Pace at 

Will you continue, Mr. Pace? 


Mr. Pace. After a meeting with the top party fraction, headed by 
Levin, the methods and tactics of operation from the base at Thir- 
teenth and B Streets SW., were decided, which called for the dividing 
of the contingent into variolis groups, with a chairman of each group, 
for the purpose of penetrating the other camps and working within 
those camps such as distributing leaflets put out by the Workers' Ex- 
Servicemen's League and the central rank-and-hle committee and to 
spread propaganda among the veterans in those camps by word of 
mouth, in line with the general party program to carry on a smear 
campaign against the "sell-out and double-cross policy" of the leaders 
of these various camps. 

Mr. Mandel. Which leaders, particularly, did they attack? 

Mr. Pace. Well, of course, the principal target was Walter W. 
Waters. Others were Doake Carter, Harold Foulkrod, George Alman, 
and the commanders of other contingents, of whom I don't remember 
their names. Also Roy S. Robertson. 

Mr. Mandel. AVhat was the purpose of attacking these leaders? 

Mr. Pace. The purpose was to discredit them in the eyes of their 
followers in order to create confusion and eventually a split in the 
ranks of the followers, which would give our forces a wedge whereby 
they would eventually recapture the leadership of that contingent. 

Mr. Mandel. What was the line of attack against these leaders? 

Mr. Pace. The line of attack would be the sell-out to the enemies 
of the bonus march — a clo-nothing policy — demoralizing slogans — we 
accused them of having no program, 

Mr. Mandel. How were the Communist groups organized in the 
various contingents? 

Mr. Pace. These small committees were sent into each camp, whose 
purpose it was to rally around themselves other militant veterans in 
these camps to form a camp rank-and-file committee, who would select 
one of their members as a member of the central rank-and-hle com- 
mittee in order to have a coordinated program outlined and elected 
from the central rank-and-file committee. 

Mr. Mandel. Was that central rank-and-file committee Communist 

Mr. Pace. It was controlled completely by the Communist fraction 
in the central rank-and-file committee, myself being chairman of the 
Communist fraction in the rank-and-file committee. Through this 
type or organization we had been able to get a contact with the various 
camps which could be utilized to draw them into our street mass 
meetings and parades. 

Mr. Mandel. How was it that the forces opposed to Communists 
were not effective in counteracting your etlorts ? 

Mr. Pa(:e. Well, I would say that it was mostly due to the confu- 
sion and the difference that existed among these forces. One contrib- 
uting factor was that in spite of the tactical finesse used by General 
Glassford, which proved very effective in the handling of the bonus 
march as a whole, I believe that one grave blunder was made and that 
was as Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Department he al- 
lowed himself to be officially connected with the bonus expeditionary 
forces by serving as secretary and treasui'er, which placed him in the 
position of being an officer and responsible to the bonus expeditionary 
forces. At the same time, due to his official capacity as head of the 
Police Department, he was responsible for the operation of the Police 


Department in maintaininof law and order. Another contributino; 
factor was the inability of the Government to handle the sitnation 
properly, also the discord that existed among the varions agencies 
which caused considerable vacillation. For instance, one day they 
would make a decision that the veterans would have to leave or they 
would make a decision that a certain locality could not be occupied, 
and the next day they would rescind that decision. They had no uni- 
fied policy in dealing with the veterans, which seemed in my opinion 
a complete lack of understanding of the situation. 

Mr. Mandel. Would you describe the difl'erence between the ap- 
proach of the typical leader of the bonus march as compared with 
that of the Communist wing? 

Mr. Pace. The ditferences between the approach of the leaders of 
the main army of the BEF and that of the left-wing group could be 
attributed to the dili'erences in the purposes of the two groups. The 
purpose of the main group of the BEF, under the leadership of 
Waters, was to petition Congress for the immediate cash payment of 
the bonus and to send letters and telegrams to Congressman and to 
the White House, according to the established law ; where that of the 
left-wing movement was to use these grievances — the general economic 
situation — this demand for the bonus, to build a revolutionary force 
and to gain followers for the cause of the revolution. 

Mr. Mandel. Well, that is very general. Could you be more specific 
as to their purpose? What was the attitude which they wished to 
insj)ire toward the (xovernment ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, for instance, we were holding mass meetings prac- 
tically every evening on Pennsylvania Avenue where derogatory 
speeches were made against the (xovernment, against Hoover, against 
Glassford, and against all of the governmental agencies. These 
speeches would develop to a higher political level by connecting them 
with the general demands for unemployment insurance, Negro rights, 
and so forth. 

Mr. Mandel. What was the attitude of Waters and his fellow 
leaders toward the Government on this question? 

Mr. Pace. Well, my conception of that is that Waters tried in every 
way to do everything in a legal manner. He used all the means that 
he could, and stay within good standing with his men, to cooperate 
fully with the agencies of the Government. 

Mr. Mandel. Did he look upon the Government as representing him 
and his associates? 

Mr. Pace. Well, Waters was critical of the inability of several 
Congresmen and Senators to see the plight that the veterans were 
in and see the necessity for making the payment at that time, but 
the criticism was directed in a legitimate way. 

Mr. Mandel. Would you consider him as a loyal American? 

Mr. Pace. I believe he was. 

Mr. Mandel. What was the attitude of the Communists toward 
the Government in this situation? 

Mr. Pace. Of course, the Communist attitude toward the Govern- 
ment was just the same as it is in all other situations. They charged 
that the Government was an agent of business — the Government was 
handing out all kinds of doles to industry and banks — not doing any- 
thing for the veteran and the unemployed. They continuously car- 

92286—51 3 


ried on a smear campaigii against the Government or any agency 
of the Government. 

Mr. Mandel. Was their attitude to discredit the Government of 
the United States ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, yes. All of these economic demands were used 
to attract the attention of the veterans and connect them with a con- 
demnation of the Government for the purpose of turning the veterans 
against the Government as preliminary steps. 

Mr. Mandel. Was their attitude sincerely to try to secure relief? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the policy of the party is to use the immediate 
economic demands of the veterans in this situation. This whole pro- 
gram of organization was for the purpose of arousing the veterans 
to the support of more mass meetings, more parades, more demonstra- 
tions at the Capitol and White House and the picketing of the White 
House, and more direct action against the Government for the purpose 
of provoking a conflict between the marchers and the law-enforcing 
agencies of the District. We took advantage of the momentum of 
the campaign by intensifying the necessity of parades and meetings, 
and demanding participation in the regular meetings of the BEF 
army, such as the large demonstration that was called by Waters at 
the Capitol, where Waters and Foulkrod made reports upon their 
return from a meeting with Governor Roosevelt at the Democratic Na- 
tional Convention. At this time, immediately following their reports, 
I took the platform, without permission, and made an appeal to the 
veterans for continuous demonstrations daily at the Capitol, and de- 
nounced the sell-out policy of Waters and his aides to the veterans. 

Mr. Mandel. You were then following the party line? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. Also a meeting was organized on the out- 
skirts of Anacostia by the left-wing group as a means of spreading 
our propaganda and fomenting more direct action in the Waters 
camp, where his followers could hear our speeches and our program. 
On July 17, 1932, Congi^ess adjourned, so the party immediately 
sensed the feeling that the last hope of the veteran to obtain his 
bonus immediately had been destroyed, so a representative of the 
central committee, Israel Amter, was sent from New York. 

Mr. Mandel. Of the central committee of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Pace. Yes. He was sent from New York and immediately 
called a top party fraction meeting, when he demanded a more mili- 
tant and more vigorous program. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you describe as nearly as you remember what 
he said ? 

Mr. Pace. He said that as long as Congress remained in session 
there were some hopes of the passage of the bonus bill, but now Con- 
gress has adjourned, those hopes have been destroyed. The veterans 
will be ready for more direct action and we must take the lead — that 
is, the Communists — we must take the lead and utilize this dissatis- 
faction among the veterans. We must come forward with a more 
militant program, He proposed a continuous picketing of the White 
House, the sending of delegates to President Hoover, and a bolder 
campaign of our committee inside other camps in order to arouse 
them to the support of our program. He also said that if we allow 
the veterans to get out of Washington without a fight we have lost 
our cause. 


Mr. Mandel. As far as you remember, where was this top fraction 
meeting held with Amter ^ 

Mr. Pace. It was held at party headquarters on Seventh Street NW. 

Mr. Mandel. What happened as a result of this meeting with 

Mr. Pace. Well, we went back into our rank-and-file committee 
headquarters at Thirteenth and B Streets SW and called a party 
fraction meeting of the party members inside the rank-and-file com- 
mittee and presented them with this program and these instructions, 
with the result that we innnediately began picketing the White House. 

Mr. Mandel. That same day ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, I don't know whether the same day or the next 
day; it wasn't long after. In the plans of picketing the White House 
we timed the picket at 5 minutes after 12 in order to have the great 
mass of Government employees coming out of their buildings for 
lunch right at the time the pickets arrived. 

Mr. Mandel. So that they could get into a clash with the police 
and put on this demonstration to dramatize the thing before thou- 
sands of Government workers and involve them in the demonstration ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. For instance, one Government employee 
was kicked and arrested and put in a scout car because he walked 
over and picked up some fellow's hat and the cops thought he was 
a marcher, at which time he was arrested. 

Mr. Mandel. What effect did your activities in the Waters camp 
liave ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the slogans used and the demands put forward 
were in such a fashion as to appeal to the rank-and-file veterans, 
thereby causing confusion, and in the attempt of the various officers 
of the Waters camp to agree on what methods to be used to counteract 
these things, they were forced to resign and be replaced. This caused 
a lot of vacillation in the leadership, which resulted in a split from 
the Waters camp of the Oregon delegation and the Alman faction. 

Mr. Mandel. What happened as a result of this split ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, because of this, Waters came into the Oregon dele- 
gation and called for the election of a new commander of that area, 
which also included two or three smaller contingents. Alman, who 
had shown a tendency to develop a more militant attitude and a pro- 
gram more or less coinciding with the program of the Communists, 
came to our camp and invited me to come over there and speak at 
this election rally and I spoke on behalf of the election of Alman, 
which, according to Alman's own statement, resulted in his reelection 
as area commander. The Communists felt quite jubilant over the 
fact that they had brought about this much of a split in the Waters 

Mr. Mandel. From that time on, did the Communist group cooper- 
ate with Alman ? 

Mr. Pace. AVell, yes, to the extent that they began to support our 
mass meetings and when we had our parade and demonstration at 
the Capitol, where a meeting was held at the foot of the Library 
steps, Alman's contingent joined with us in that demonstration. 

Mr. Mandel. What were your plans in regard to the future use of 
Abu an ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, we were using Alman to get control of the rank 
and file. It was the plan of the party to use Alman as the front for 


gaining control of the entire bonus expeditionary forces. The rapid 
momentum with which the Communist Party, through its central 
rank-and-file committee, was gaining influence resulted in more mili- 
tant and more direct action, which we hoped would bring us into 
sharper clashes with the Government and the law-enforcement 
agencies and which, in my opinion, resulted in the Government being 
placed in the position of having to call out the Army. 

Mr. Mandel. In other words, you are of the opinion that the Gov- 
ernment was becoming increasingly alarmed at the headway being 
made by the Communists ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. I do not believe that the Government had 
any alternative because of the rapid pace being made. It is my candid 
opinion that had this thing gone another week, the Communists would 
have gained the leadership of the bonus expeditionary forces, thereby 
resulting in forcing the Government to take the action that they did 
take, at a time when the results would have been mucli more disastrous. 

Mr. Mandel. Are you acquainted, Mr. Pace, with the events that 
took place on July 29, 1932? 

Mr. Pace. No ; I was in jail at that time. 

Mr. Mandel. Did you learn from party leaders what happened? 

Mr. Pace. No; the only discussion that I had came probably 2 
•or 3 weeks after that date, when I was called to New York City. 

Mr. Mandel. When were you released from jail? 

Mr. Pace. That I don't remember. 

Mr. Mandel. How many days, approximately, were you in jail? 

Mr. Pace. I would say 20 or 25 days — something like" that. 

Mr. Mandel. What did you do after your release ? 

Mr. Pace. I was ordered to New York, where I attended a meet- 
ing of the top leadership of the Communist Party and a representa- 
tive of the Comintern was also present — he was introduced to me as 

Mr. Mandel. Can you tell us w^ho else was at that meeting? 

Mr. Pace. There was Earl Browder, Clarence Hathaway, William 
Weinstone, Emanuel Levin, Herbert Benjamin, Max Bedacht, a fellow 
by the name of Alpi, and a fellow by the name of Louis Sass. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you describe what happened at this meeting? 

Mr. Pace. Well, there was quite a hot argument over the policies 
that had been pursued by the party in connection with the bonus 
march. The Communist Party of tlie United States was severely 
criticized by the representative of the Comintern, Alpi, for, as Alpi 
put it, the bonus march was like an alarm clock waking somebody up 
out of a dead sleep. 

Mr. Mandel. Will you try to recall, as nearly as possible, all that 
he said ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, he centered his attack on Weinstone. He told 
him that he slept while the masses rolled and called him a swivel- 
chair organizer. In fact, he called the whole party, approximately, 
a swivel-chair organization. 

Mr. Mandel. You have not pointed out so far what was Wein- 
stone's official connection with the party forces in the bonus march? 

Mr. Pace. According to the discussions that were can-ied on in 
this meeting, he was supposed to be the cliief representative of the 
executive committee of the Connnunist Party on the question of 


Mr. Mandel. Operating from New York? 

Mr. Pace. Operating- from New York. 

Mr. Mandel. In other words, he was chiefly responsible to the cen- 
tral committee for policy on this question ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. 

Mr. Mandel. Will 3'on describe the course of the discussion? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the discussion then centered around the future 
program and activities among the veterans. Browder asked Wein- 
stone if he thought there could be another bonus march soon, and 
Weinstone gave him the opinion that there could be. He then asked 
Levin if he thought there could be another bonus march soon, and 
Levin told him there could be. Then he asked me if I thought there 
could be another bonus march soon, and I told him no, I didn't believe 
there could be another bonus march anyway soon. Browder then 
asked me what, in my opinion, could be done. I told him that by 
virtue of my popularity among the veterans at that time I could make 
a national tour and build up a national convention spearheaded be- 
tween the Workers- Ex-Servicemen's League and the central rank- 
and-file committee to be held in Cleveland at some time in the near 
future that would serve as an organization force and a stimulant for 
maybe a bonus march next year, at which point the Communist In- 
ternational Representative Alpi hammered his fist on the desk and 
said, "Correct." So Levin and I were instructed to carry out this 

Mr. Mandel. As approved by Alpi ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, as approved by Alpi. 

Mr. Mandel. What specific steps were recommended ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the steps to be pursued and the details of the 
program were left to Levin and me to work out ; the only instructions 
were that it be not later than September. So we proceeded to call a 
party fraction meeting in the central rank-and-file committee and the 
Workers' Ex-Servicemen's League to discuss the step and dates ne- 
cessary for the building of this convention. The date was set for the 
latter part of September 1932. Alpi ordered that the party machine 
be put into operation in every district that was to be covered for the 
purpose of holding mass meetings and giving support to my meetings 
on this tour. 

Mr. Mandel. At this point, let the record show an article entitled 
"Lessons of the Bonus March," statement of central committee of 
Communist Party, U. S. A., as published in the Communist for 
September 1932, pages 792 to 804. 

During the bonus march, was there any effort on the part of the 
Communists to disaffect American troops? 

Mr. Pace. In our meetings downtown, in walking around the town, 
we would come in contact with members of the Marine Corps and the 
Army and discuss with them the plight of the veterans — why we were 
there — and we would tell them that some day they might be in the 
same boat, and so forth, which resulted in too friendly relations of 
the marchers and the marines. When the marines were ordered to 
the Capitol during the demonstration there, because of this friendli- 
ness and fraternization, they didn't take any action. 

Mr. Mandel. Mr. Pace, as you look back upon the whole affair, do 
5^ou have any specific recommendations or points that you would like 


to emphasize that would be of future vahie if such a situation should 

again arise? - 

Mr, Pace. Well, I believe that if such a situation or a similar situ- 
ation would arise it would be advantageous for all of the people respon- 
sible to get together and discuss all the phases that led up to such a 
situation and discuss ways and means of handling the situation in 
order that everybody connected with it would have a distinct under- 
standing of how the job should be done and that all action should be 
a united action in order to prevent vacillation, indecisiveness, and so 
forth. It should be people w^ho understand the social and economic 
condition, people who should understand and know from past experi- 
ence; and they should base their future judgment upon these experi- 

Mr. Mandel. At the peak of the bonus march how many veterans 
were in Washington ; would you say ^ 

Mr. Pace. Well, I estimated between 15,000 and 20,000. 

Mr. Mandel. How many party members were there in this group at 
the peak ? 

INIr. Pace. Well, I don't believe there could have been over 100 party 

Mr. Mandel. In other words, this activity among 15,000 veterans 
was handled by a group of about 100 party members ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. The active party group, party fraction, 
that we knew were reliable party members w^ould number no more 
than 25. 

Mr. Mandel. How many party members were in the Michigan con- 
tingent ? 

Mr. Pace. I would estimate about 10 ; there were 3 that were actively 
in charge. 

Mr. Mandel. Who defended you when you were arrested? 

Mr. Pace. Irving Schwab and David Levinson. 

Mr. Mandel. Who were they ? 

Mr. Pace. They were attorneys for the International Labor Defense. 

Mr. Mandel. Mr. Kornfeder, you have heard the testimony of Mr. 
Pace and you were in contact with party headquarters during the 
entire period of the bonus march. Will you give us your estimate of 
the party's conduct in this situation and the lessons to be learned from 
the whole episode ? 

Mr. Kornfeder. As I said before, the party was represented in this 
activity by William W. Weinstone. He had missed in taking the ini- 
tiative in the actual direct organization of the bonus march and there- 
fore was com])elled after the movement had been initiated by others to 
catch up as far as possible with it. 

The bonus march was the type of movement which, to a large ex- 
tent, would naturally fit into the type of activity the party was then 
interested in; namely, the seizure of transportation facilities or high 
pressure to force the obtaining of such facilities. The oppor- 
tunity of marching men across the country was a tremendous dis- 
play of the crisis then existing. But because it had missed on the 
initiative it was able to take advantage of the situation onlj' partly. 
For that reason it made an especially strong effort to recoup the 
initiative in Washington, D. C, itself. This was to be done, as Mr. 

- See p. 194G for enlargement upon the answer to this question. 


Pace related, by setting up a separate camp and then doing everything 
possible to influence the other camps and take advantage of any dif- 
ferences in those camps, with the objective of thus getting complete 
control of the bonus expeditionary forces. If this objective had 
been fully successful, the aim was to dramatize on a grandiose scale 
events in Washington and parade them before the world. There is 
no doubt in my mind that if they had obtained complete organization 
control of the bonus expeditionary forces they would have done every- 
thing possible to turn the life of Washington, D. C, upside down, in- 
cluding attempts at storming the AVhite House, in order to dramatize 
the crisis in the United States before the world. 

Comintern headquarters was, of course, tremendously interested 
in the events occurring in the United States, especially in the bonus 
march, and when Weinstone, as Alpi, the Comintern representative, 
later said, was found to be slipping, he Weinstone, was blamed by 
Browder and other members of the political bureau of the Commu- 
nist Party for missing the boat, a controversy developed inside the 
political bureau between Browder and Weinstone as to who was to 
blame. To settle that controversy, they both had to go to Moscow, 
and as a result of the decision made in Moscow, Weinstone was se- 
verely criticized and thereafter reduced in rank and position in the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Mandel. Mr. Kornfeder, would you say that a study of the 
various jihases of Communist activity in the bonus march is worthy of 
present study, and, if so, for what reason ( 

Mr. Kornfeder. Yes; I certainly think so, because in the event of 
any like situation, the Communist Party, which now has a much 
larger organization than then and operates through so many fronts, 
each of Avhich is much larger than any of those existing then, plus 
their influence and control over a whole number of unions which 
then they did not have, if a similar situation were to occur, their 
ability to grab hold of any movement of this type and utilize it would 
create a condition of disorder and crisis way beyond the possibilities 
of 1982. I think they have learned a great lesson as to how to utilize 
veterans to spearhead a movement of unemployed and whether in the 
future there is such an issue as an unpaid bonus or not, they will 
certainly find it the wisest to put the much larger number of veterans 
into motion for their purposes in such a situation. 

Mr. Mandel. Let the record show that in a publication entitled 
"Veterans on the March," by Jack Douglas, published by Workers 
Library Publishers, a Communist publishing house, there is a photo- 
graph of Michigan and Ohio veterans in the Cleveland railroad yards 
executing a Communist salute, i. e., the clenched fist. In the same pub- 
lication is a photograph of John Pace when he was arrested near the 
White House. 

Mr. Kornfeder, do you happen to know Jack Douglas? 

Mr. Kornfeder. Yes ; I do. Douglas, under a difi^'erent name, was an 
undergraduate of the Lenin School in Moscow, and I notice from read- 
ing the volume that he wrote on the bonus march, that he embodied 
much of his training in the handling of the material and information 
available to him from the bonus march. 

Mr. Mandel. What do you think is the significance of the publica- 
tion of this book l 


Mr. KoRNFEDER. The significance, in my opinion, is that it may serve 
as a manual to be used for the organization of similar activities in the 

Mr. Mandel. Mr. Kornf eder, have you any suggestions or recom- 
mendations in the event of a future recurrence of a similar situation? 

Mr. KoRNFEDER. I think the lessons that are, in my opinion, obvious 
from the events of the bonus march in 1932 are that the authorities in 
the various States and cities unintentionally helped the Communist 
Party by unnecessarily giving the party an opportunity to dramatize 
the march by all sorts of obstructions, impediments, controversies, etc. ; 
that had the various local contingents been given transportation from 
their places of origin down to Wasliington, the drama that had been 
created by all these fights would not have been there because the country 
would not have been stirred up as it was by all these incidents as the 
dozens of columns marched through the country. 

In Washington, D. C, the same erroneous policy, to a large extent, 
was pursued, which made it possible for the party to enhance its infil- 
tration activities among the mass of the bonus expeditionary forces; 
and if instead of that. Congress had simply voted a sufficient amount 
to put all these men on relief, as it were, much of that drama in the 
Capitol would not have been. This is, of course, entirely aside of the 
question as to whether the bonus at that time should have been granted 
or not. 

Mr. Mandel. Is there anything else that you would like to add to 
your testimony regarding the matters which have been discussed here 
today ? 

(No response from the witnesses.) 

Mr. Wood. The committee wishes to express its appreciation to the 
witnesses for the testimony which they have given today. There being 
no further questions, the meeting will be adjourned. 

(Whereupon the meeting was adjourned subject to the call of the 

(Note. — After incorporation of the testimony of John T. Pace and 
Joseph Zack Kornfeder into the record of this hearing, the chairman 
invited the witness, Mr. John T. Pace, to proceed with such comment 
as he desired to make regarding his former testimony. The witness 
proceeded as follows:) 

Mr. Pace. This paragraph on 784 ^ is just an error. The question 

Would you say that this policy of taking over private property was conscious 
or just accidental? 

I answered: 

Well, on our part it was conscious. It was something we had sort of been 
praying for as a preliminary training to the masses on how to do these things 
and to build in their minds a hatred for private-owned property and Government 

That is just a misstatement there. It would be a hatred for owners 
of private-owned property. That is just a correction. 

Mr. Tavenner. That change or addition should appear on page 784 ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes. 

Mr. Wood. What is the other paragraph? 

Mr. Pace. On page 793.* This, I think, is important. 

2 See p. 1934, this publication. 

^ See pp. 1943-44, this publication. 


Mr. Wood. What page is that ? 
Mr. Pace. 793. The question was: 

As you look back upon the whole affair, do you have any specific recom- 
mendations or points that you would like to emphasize that would be of future 
value if such a situation should again arise? 

I was asked a question about specific recommendations or points to 
emphasize that would be of value if such a situation should arise in the 
future. I think the more proper response to that question would be 
that had the right people understood the determinations of the average 
veteran to march to Washington to urge the passage of immediate cash 
payment of the veterans bonus, and provide the proper leadership, the 
Communists would never have been able to establish a base of opera- 
tions in Washington, and the resulting trouble would have been 
avoided. As the situation stood in the Michigan delegation, I as a 
Communist more or less controlled the policies and actions of the 
delegation. This I was able to do without revealing the fact that I 
was a member of the Communist Party and following the dictates of 
the party, because I was a veteran, personally interested in the pay- 
ment of the bonus, and because the Michigan delegation liked the 
proper kind of leadership, I was able to use the Michigan delegation 
to carry out the Communist program in relation to the bonus mariph. 

(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., entered the hearing room.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Are there any other explanations or elaborations 
that you desire to make of the testimony given by you in executive 
session ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. As I stated before, I left the Communist Party 
in the early part of 1935. During the time I was active in the Com- 
munist Party, I learned that the party placed great emphasis on the 
need for the organization of the youth of America for the purpose of 
indoctrination, and that it behooved the Communist Party to infiltrate 
all organizations where there was a concentration of young people. 

In 1946 and 1947 I was chairman of the Un-American Activities 
Committee of the Detroit District Association of the American Legion. 
In this connection I did some investigating of Communist activities in 
the colleges and universities in the State of Michigan, particularly 
Wayne University in Detroit. 

The American Legion was interested in learning whether there were 
any Communist activities among the students at schools and universi- 
ties and considered that inasmuch as there were a number of veterans 
attending the universities under the GI bill that these veterans would 
be a good source of information. Through a group of these veterans 
my committee learned that there was a chapter of the American Youth 
for Democracy chartered on the campus of Wayne University. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, at this point, for the benefit of the 
record, I would like to state that this committee, after considerable re- 
search and investigation, issued a pamphlet on April 17, 1947, dealing 
with the organization, the American Youth for Democracy. 

In this report it was developed that a special convention of the 
Young Conununist League was held at Manhattan Center, New York 
City, on October 15 and 16, 1943. Earl Browder, in addressing this 
convention, called for a broader eulogy among the young people's 
organizations to reach out and dissolve old and outlived barriers which 
have kept apart too many youth organizations. 


The convention on October 16 dissolved the Young Communist 
League. The next day the same delegates met at Mecca Temple, New 
York City, and formed the American Youth for Democracy. At one 
time during its existence, the American Youth for Democracy claimed 
to have 160 chapters in colleges in 14 States. As a result of the work 
this witness will relate, the American Youth for Democracy was ex- 
posed as just another Communist organization, with the result that it 
folded up in February 1949. 

As is the case when most Communist- front organizations are ex- 
posed, a new one is created. The Labor Youth League, which is noth- 
ing more nor less than a successor to the American Youth for De- 
mocracy, was formed at a conference held in Chicago, May 28 and 29, 
1949. This latter organization was exposed by Matt Cvetic in his 
testimony before this committee. However, the Labor Youth League 
exists today as a Communist organization for the recruitment of youth 
into the Communist Party. 

Now, Mr. Pace, with that just general explanation and introduction 
to the subject of the A YD, or the American Youth for Democracy, 
will you tell the committee what the result of your investigation was 
while you were holding the position to which you referred in the 
State of Michigan ? 

Mr. Pace. For the benefit of the committee and the public, could I 
state first what connection this has with the Communist activity 
among the veterans, why I was interested in the AYD. When I at- 
tended the party scliool 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you mean the Communist Party school? 

Mr. Pace. The Communist Party school; we were taught the role 
that the youth played in the Czarist army at the time of the revolution. 

We were also taught that the primary interest of the Communist 
Party in the organization of the youth was for the purpose of organiz- 
ing the youth and indoctrinating them with the Communist ideology 
and philosophy as potential members of our Armed Forces, and that 
they would be prepared to carry out acts of sabotage and espionage 
and acts of mutiny within our Armed Forces. 

Therefore. I was interested, as the representative of the American 
Legion, in exposing this American Youth for Democracy as a recruiting 
ground for potential members of our Armed Forces to carry out the 
Communist program within our Armed Forces. 

So, we did this work. We obtained the files, the membership lists, 
and found that there were loo members of the American Youth for 
Democracy, evidently being led by a handful of Communists, because 
after our exposure a great majority of these people quit the American 
Youth for Democracy and refused to follow its leadership. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where was that organization established; at what 
place ? 

Mr. Pace. In Wayne University, Detroit, Mich. 

Mr. Wood. When was that? 

Mr. Pace. In 1947. 

Mr. Wood. Was that after you had severed your relationship with 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. Pace. It was 12 years after. 

Mr. Wood. And had entered into the fight against communism ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. I was chairman of the American Legion's com- 
mittee on un-American activities. Those files I will mail to the com- 
mittee upon my return home, and that membership list. 


Upon getting this information, we took it to the Governor of Michi- 
gan, Governor Sigler at that time, and he became alarmed about it, 
and shortly after went on the radio exposing the American Youth 
for Democracy as a Communist organization. 

That was followed shortly after by a radio address by the Director 
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Hoover, and according 
to newspaper articles, why they were being banned from many colleges 
and universities throughout the United States. I think that that was 
the result of work of our committee at Wayne University. 

Also, Michigan set up a committee, a city committee to investigate 
Communist activities. I believe that we cleaned them out of Michigan. 

Mr. Kearney. You mean, out of the Michigan colleges. 

Mr. Pace. Yes. 

Mr. Kearney. You didn't clean them out of Michigan. 

Mr. Pace, No, not Michigan. We broke their backbone. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are willing to send us the files that you have on 
the subject for the purpose of study and analysis by the staif of this 
committee ? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. 

]Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Tavenner, he volunteered he would do 
that, before you asked him. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

I would like to refer back to your statement of a few moments ago, 
when you elaborated upon your previous testimony, in which you 
said that had the right people understood the determinations of the 
aATrage veteran to march to Washington to urge the passage of im- 
mediate cash payment of tlie veterans' bonus, and provide the proper 
leadership, the Communists would never have been able to establish 
a base of operations in Washington, and the resulting trouble would 
have been avoided. 

Do I understand that what you are really saying there, in substance, 
is that the matter of educating the people on this subject of com- 
munism you consider to be of the utmost importance ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. 

In Detroit, this is an example of how the situation was handled. 
There was already a mass movement going on. The impulse was so 
strong for a march to Washington that it was unavoidable. The 
regular veterans' organizations, being patriotic organizations, were 
naturally opposed to such actions against the Government, and they 
were sincere and honest in attempting to avoid a march to Washing- 
ton. So, they orga;iized a parade in Detroit of various veterans' or- 
ganizations for the immediate cash payment of the bonus. And so, 
we took our little group and got out a leaflet, went in and took over 
this parade of good patriotic American citizens, took the meeting 
away from them, raised the question of a march to Washington, which 
was greatly applauded, and because of this mistake in seeing this 
determination by the leadership, we were able to take it away from 
them and bring it to Washington and establish a base of operations 
down here. 

Mr. Kearney. When you say "We" who do you mean ? 

Mr. Pace. We Communists. 

Mr. Doyle. How many were in that group that you designate as 
"we" ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, there were — 



Mr. Doyle, And of what ages ? Were they all adults ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, they were all adults in the march. They were not 
all adults that helped to take over this parade. 

Mr. DoTLE. That is what I am asking. How many in that group 
that you refer to as "we took it over'- ? 

Mr. Pace. Oh, probably 10. There weren't but three actually active 
who were doing the work. The rest were just the rank and filers, 
possibly 10. 

Mr. Tavenner. You described those matters fully in the course 
of your — you did describe them fully in the course of your testimony. 

Mr. Pace. That is in here, that we used Young Communist League 
girls, and so forth, iji helping prepare for the parade and making up 
the list, and clerical work. 

Mr. Tavenner. You see, the ])oint that I am asking you now about 
that is the value of educating the people as to the plan of procedure 
by the Communist Party, and the dangers of communism. 

Mr. Pace. The Connnunist Party teaches that we, the Communists, 
must be able at all times to take "advantage of the weaknesses of our 
enemies, and that was one of the weaknesses that we were able to take 
advantage of. Had these people seen iJiat there was a determination 
for them to march to Washington, then they stopped and would have 
prevented us from having the leadership, that would have prevented 
the establishing an operation base in Washington, which would have 
prevented all these mass meetings and demonstrations and pickets, and 
so forth. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, 

Mr. Wood. Any questions, Mr. Walter 'i 

Mr. Walter. I have no questions, 

Mr, Wood. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I didn't have the benefit of being a member of the com- 
mittee who heard this testimony in executive session. I will try to 
avoid duplication, Mr. Chairman. I do feel, though, Mr. Pace, your 
reference to — unless it was gone into pretty thoroughly in the execu- 
tive session when you previously testified — .your statement just now 
that you were taught the place youth played in Russia, youth as a 
member of our Armed Forces in carrying out sabotage, and so forth, 
do I understand that the Communist Part}^ when you were a member 
of it up until 1935 — is that correct? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Had taught in this country that you, as a Comnumist 
leader, should undertake to get youth in this AYD and other Com- 
munist youth groups in order that they might later become members 
of the Armed Forces of America, and as members of the Armed Forces 
of America, carrying rifles and guns, be in a position to carry out 
the forceful revolution, forceful sabotage against the United States 
in case it was involved in armed conflict with Russia ? 

Mr. Pace, That is right. 

Mr. Doyle. Is that what yon are telling me ? 

Mr. Pace, That was the program of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Doyle. As far as you know, is it still the program of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Pace, As far as I know, it is still the program of the Communist 


(At this point Representative Francis E. Walter left the hearing 

jNIr. Doyle. To your personal knowledge, were the members of this 
AYD, these 135 members, or any portion of them — were they actually 
so tauglit ? Were they actually tauglit that in Micliigan ? 

Mr. Pace. Well, I wasn't a member in Wayne University. I can't 
testify just what this specific group was taught, but I can say that 
that was the role of the Communists in the youth organization, to 
teach that. It was their duty. 

Mr. DoYi.E. In other words, you learned that, you were taught that 
in the Connnunist school ; is that correct 'i 

Mr. Pace. That is right. 

Mr. Doyle. Am I to understand that you, as an American citizen, 
swallowed that philosophy? Why did you agree to that sort of 
sabotage program ? 

]Mr. Pace. Well, that's a long story. 

Mr. Doyle. I don't 

Mr. Pace. I can make it short. 

Mv. Doyle. Why would that sort of destruction to our Nation 
appeal to you, sir, as an adult American citizen ? 

Mr. Pace. AVell, at that particular time, there was a situation that 
didn't exactly appeal to most peoi)le. I was in business in Detroit. 
I had worked pretty hard over a period of years building this busi- 
ness, and all of a sudden I lost it. I hadn't got a dime. We have 
read of accounts of ]3eople at that point losing all they had, jumping 
off of bridges and turning on the gas, and so forth. I didn't feel that 
I could solve the problem that way. I wanted to fight, and any organ- 
ization that had the word "fight'' in it, condemning this thing, I was 
m for. 

Mr. Doyle. I see. 

Mr. Pace. And step by ste]:) I was given literature, elementary 
literature on the economic situation, and completely sold and agreed — 
all their economic slogans were fine — and then when I got into the 
party, why I was beginning to be fed literature on a higher ])olitical 
level, and became sold on the idea that this was the solution, this was 
the building of a classless society. 

After the bonus march, I was. because of my American background 
and more or less clean background morally, pushed pretty hard, pretty 
fast. And when I was drawn into political discussions with the top 
leadership of the party in New York, a representative of the interna- 
tional, and when I saw the derogatory remarks by the representative 
of the international condemning the American party for going to 
sleep and letting this revolutionary situation develop, then I saw 
that there Avas no democracy in the Communist Party. It was strictly 
a dictatorship from Moscow, and I began then to disinherit these 
illusions and comb the cobwebs out of my mind. After a couple of 
more years I decided that it wasn't what I was looking for, and I 

]Mr. Doyle. May I ask you this 

Mr. Pace. Could I continue ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Pace. Could I add one more thing? I realized then the damage 
I had done. So, I felt it my duty and obligation to do everything in 
my power and everything that I could to expose this false theory and 


false philosophy and the purpose of the whole Lenin program to use 
the martyrs' program for the building of a political dictatorship 
before the American people. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you believe anything lias transpired in the philoso- 
phy of the Communist Party in America since you were an active 
member thereof, so far as their youth program is concerned, wdiicli 
would have caused them to discontinue or stop educating, trying to 
train American boys and girls to be willing to ]oin the Armed Forces, 
and as such members of the Armed Forces in time of conflict, if any 
came between the United States and Russia, be willing to commit 
sabotage and revolution? Has anything changed that philosophy 
that you know of ? 

Mr. Pace. I don't think so. The only changes they made, as these 
youth organizations are built and our Government agencies expose 
them to the public, they will disband them and form another one in 
the same shoe. But the philosophy and teaching, I don't think that 
will change. 

Mr. DoTLE. How young do they try to get these members of youth 
organizations ? How young are the American boys and girls ? 

Mr. Pace. A little past the walking age, a little bit. I would 
rather say, a little past the kindergarten age. 

They had at that time an organization called the Young Pioneers of 
America, where they took the little tots and held parties for them, and 
they were inthe second or third or fourth-grades in school; they were 
just beginning to read, and they would give them little pamphlets with 
lots of pictures in them. 

Mr. Doyle. Were those youngsters in the Pioneer group, were they 
members — I mean, were they children of Communists themselves, or 
did they try to reach beyond the Communist families and get children 
of families whose parents were not yet Communists? 

Mr. Pace. At that time the party organizational structure was very 
narrow. The young Pioneers was the baby organization of the Young 
Communist League, which were mostly party members' children. Of 
course, party members more or less forced their children to go to the 
Young Pioneers meetings and the Young Comnuuiist League meet- 
ings. But, as the party has broadened its influence and its movement 
in building broader mass bases, wdiy they, of course, their aim and 
their attempt is to draw in any youth that they can get. 

For instance, on this AVayne University we found that there Avere 
many children in that A YD; the parents didn't know they were in 

Mr. Doyle. Then, am I accurate in my conclusion that from your 
testimony, at least, these children, who were children of Communist 
parents in these Communist youth organizations, were, as far as you 
now know, still taught by their Communist parents and Connnunist 
leaders that part of their place in society is to, when they get into the 
Armed P^orces, to be prepared to use their arms against their own bud- 
dies in the Armed Forces if they are in conflict with Soviet Russia; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Pace. That is correct. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, now, do you mean to tell me that Soviet Russia, 
then, reaches down into our country, and that that sort of philosophy is 
definitely a matter of instruction and philosophy from Russia, from 


Soviet Russia into America ? Because that is conspiracy, that is trai- 
torous action, isn't it ? 

Mr. Pace. I would say that those are the instructions, the philoso- 
j)hy, and the teachinojs of the executive committee of the Communist 
International. I wouldn't say Russia. Russia is a branch of the Com- 
munist International, the same as the party in the United States is, or 
Germany or France or any other country. But the Communist Inter- 
national is the head force of all Communist propaganda and activity 
and organizational instructions. 

Mr. Doyle. Where, as far as you know, did that international head 
up ? Where does its leadership come from 'i 

Mr. Pace. The international. The international executive commit- 
tee is a committee composed of delegates of the various parties in the 
various countries in the world, 

Mr. Doyle, Is there any international — was there any interna- 
tional children's movement that you knew of, or youth movement? 

Mr, Pace, The Young Communist League was affiliated to the 
Young Communist International. 

Mr, Doyle, Just one more question, Mr, Chairman. You remarked 
that the bonus march couldn't have been taken over by you and the 
other, I think you named 10 — you said there were 10 in the group, 
and you narrowed that down to 3. 

Mr. Pace, I said there were about 10 in the group, but there were 
only 3 that participated in policy and were the leadership of the 

Mr, Doyle. You said had there been the right and proper leader- 
ship you couldn't have taken that over in Michigan. Where did you 
expect that leadership to come from? You were dealing with a 
patriotic organization, weren't you? 
Mr, Pace, That is right. 

(Representative Francis E, Walter returned to the hearing room 
at this point.) 

Mr. Doyle, How could you take away the leadership of that prob- 
lem from those groups? They were highly organized, weren't they? 
Mr. Pace. But we didn't take over the organization as a unit. We 
took over the average veteran members of these organizations, mem- 
bers who were oppressed, out of a job, possibly most of them on the 

As I said, had these various organizations gone out and provided 
the necessary leadership for this movement to Washington, we 
couldn't have broken in on it. 

Mr. Doyle. That condition, in those days, then, was a condition of 
special economic stress and strain, during the depression. In other 
words, the temporary economic conditions tliat then existed, in your 
judgment, were responsible for this formation of this march? 

Mr, Pace, That is right, I think that had these veterans been 
more or less secure economically that they would have been willing 
to have waited until their World War certificates were due. 

Mr, Doyle. The temporary economic conditions that then existed, 
in your judgment, I suppose, made it, at least in your own case, possi- 
ble for American businessmen such as you, who had been successful 
and lost everything, to find any appeal in this subversive Communist 
philosophy ? In other words, that is your j ustification for your having 
become a member. 


Mr. Pace. That is right. And, of course, there is another one. 
At that time there had not been the ])ublic education as to what 
communism was. Nobody hardly ever saw an article about Russia, or 
what was going on, and there hadn't been any compaign, organized 
campaign at all, carried on against it, where now it is a different 

Mr. DoTi.E. INIay I ask you one more question, please? I just as- 
sume that you haven't had time to read the text of the law under 
which this committee is operating; or have you had the benefit of 
reading it? It is very short. You realize — may I call your attention 
to tlie fact that under the law under which this committee is function- 
ing our duty is to investigate subversive and un-American propaganda 
that is instigated from foreign countries or domestically ; also. hoAv- 
ever, we are charged with investigating all questions in relation to 
subversive and un-American propaganda that would aid Congress in 
any necessary remedial legislation. 

I direct your attention to that statement. Have you in mind any 
suggestion, recommendation, to this committee that we might con- 
sicler in the field of remedial legislation dealing with subversive 
propaganda in our country as coming from other countries or which 
arise domestically ; if so, w^iat ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. I have had some experience in testif ving before 
the ImmigTation Service on denaturalization cases of Comnnmist 

I have found that the Government is spending a lot of money de- 
naturalizing these people and ordering deportation proceedings to 
find that their respective countries refuse to accept the visas, and we 
still have them on our hands to operate as before. 
Mr. Doyle. You mean, they still stay here? 

Mr. Pace. They still stay here. We haven't any law to dump them 
in the river. 

Well, it is my candid opinion tliat if we had some form of legisla- 
tion for the interment of Communist aliens who have been ordered 
deported, I don't believe that their respective countries w^ould be so 
reluctant in granting a visa. So, therefore, if we had such legislation 
we might be able to get rid of a lot of them. 

Mr. Walter. You probably aren't up to date on the question of 
what to do where deported aliens cannot receive exit visas. There is 
such a law dealing adequately with that matter. 
Mr. Pace. In what way do they deal with it? 

Mr. AValter. AYell, it is a long story. I will be very happy to send 
you a copy of the law. 

Mr. Kearney. May I ask the gentleman from Pennsylvania a ques- 
tion? Let's assume, as the witness states, that an alien is ordered 
deported, and the particular country refuses to acce])t him, what then ? 
Mr. Walter. If he can't get an exit visa, then he is given an o])por- 
tunity to de})art v(jluntarily to any country he chooses. If he fails to 
do that, he can be held either at Ellis Island or some similar place; 
or, if in the judgment of the court he is not a dangerous alien, he can 
be released on bond. 

Mr. Kearney. As was the case yesterday. I mean, only so far as 
so-called dangerous individuals are concerned. 

Mr. Doyle. I think I should be privileged to make this observa- 
tion to the wituess, because I can see that he, ap])arently. wasn't aware 


of that law beiiis in full force and effect; that we in Congress, Mr. 
Pace, recognize our colleague, Mr. Walter, who is a member of this 
committee that you are now appearing before, and who has just 
answered the question, as probably one of the best informed author- 
ities in this whole country on immigTation, the problems growing out 
of it. and he is chairman of the subcommittee of the Judiciary on 
Immigration. We are lucky to have him on this committee. 

Now, may I ask this : Have you any other suggestion or recommen- 
dation as to remedial legislation^ What about declaring the Com- 
munist Party illegal? 

Mr. Pace. That's long past due. We are faced with all kinds of 
opposition when this question comes up, that why drive them under- 
ground, let them stay out in the open so we can see them and know 
who they are. 

My experience in the organizational structure of the party is that 
the real backbone of the leadership has always been undergrovmd. 
They are never people who come out in the open. These people who 
come out in the open are the front for the party, the propagandists — ■ 
their newspapers, or means of distributing propaganda. It is just 
the propaganda machinery to front for the real leadership, which is 

I think that any legislation that makes it more difficult for the 
party to operate is in line with the present situation. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, thinking in terms of the United States Constitu- 
tion — and I haven't had the benefit of talking with you, as you know ; 
I have never met you personally and discussed this subject with you, 
and I want the record to show it, because I don't know what the gentle- 
man's answer to this question may be — isn't it true that under our 
system of government, such a law would only be justifiable in case 
membership in the Communist Party as now contained would amount 
to a conspiracy against our Government presently ; in other words, a 
present threat^ Or, am I in error in your thinking? 

Mr. Pace. Has the Communist Party ever been put on trial? Has 
the Communist Party, as a party, ever been put on trial on conspiracy 
for the violent overthrow of the Government? Has that been upheld 
by the Supreme Court ? 

Mr. Doyle. Well, I was wondering what the import of your answer 
might be in view of the Supreme Court of the United States decision, 
the majority opinion. 

I will ask you this further question. Is that your answer, the only 
answer you have? I want you to do the thinking. I don't want to 
do the thinking. 

Mr. Pace. Well, I can 

Mr. Doy'le. We Avant the benefit of vour thinkinir, sir. 

Mr. I'ace. I could give a better answer if I knew whether that was 
so or not. 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask you this, then? Do I understand the force, 
then, of your testimony to be this on this subject, that you believe that 
Communists in our country, as members of the Communist Party in 
our Nation, are by virtue thereof a present threat to the safety and 
security of our own Nation ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. 


Mr. Doyle. Is that why you are willing to have a law passed making^ 
it illegal, an illegal party? 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. I think that the public, the people, should be 
informed, which they have now more or less, that the Communist 
Party is a party of conspiracy to overthrow the Government by force 
and violence. After knowing this they become members of the Com- 
munist Party, or stay members of the Connnunist Party, I think they 
are just as guilty as the top leaders in New York. 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask one more question, Mr. Chainnan? I am. 
a lawyer, Mr. Pace, by profession, when I practice it. 

Mr. Pace. I am not. 

Mr. Doyle. And, naturally, as a lawyer, I want to be as much in 
defense of my United States Constitution as possible. In other words, 
we lawyers, as well as other citizens, but perhaps we lawyers more 
than others are anxious to defend the constitutional rights of every 
American citizen. You realize that, and I certainly want to, and 
always will. 

You have talked about the young children being taught to look 
forward to joining the Armed Forces of the United States, and then 
to be prepared, if needs be, in substance, to shoot their buddies in the 
back with their American-furnished rifles; in other words, to make 
sabotage. What knowledge have you, if any, as to whether or not 
adult members of the Communist Party are, likewise, instructed and 
expected to act? In other words, are they taught forceful revolu- 
tion the same as the children are taught sabotage if they get into the 
Armed Forces? 

Mr. Pace. They are taught that it is impossible for the working 
class to gain the power of the state without f orcefid revolution. They 
are also taught that even after they have taken over the power of the 
state, they must continue to be on the alert and continue to be organ- 
ized to prevent the former ruling element from capturing the power 
of the state; that without the control of the masses you must have the 
power of the state and the state machinery. 

Mr. Doyle. In connection with that, is international communism 
expected to help the Communist Party in America in acquiring control 
of the state machinery? In other words, is any foreign nation, or 
the Communist Party in any foreign nation, are they expected, or 
is it anticipated they will help in the American revolution? 

Mr. Pace. That is right. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, does that include Soviet Russia? 

Mr. Pace. Yes; Soviet Russia is a branch of the Communist Inter- 

Mr. Doyle. Is any other branch of tlie Communist International in 
any other nation expected to thus cooperate with the American Com- 
munists in overthrowing our Government if need be by force? 

Mr. Pace. Tliat is right. 

Mr. Doyle. What other nation harbors such Communists in the 
Communist International besides Soviet Russia? 

Mr. Pace, What do you mean "harbors it"? Do you mean has 
the ])ower that controls the state? 

Mr. Doyle. No. From what other foreign nation is such philosophy 
taught, and might we expect — from what other nation might the 
American Communists reasonably expect assistance in any forceful 
revolution against our Government? 


Mr. Pace. It would be any nation where the Communist Party 

Mr. Doyle. At that time ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes ; whether open or underground. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank yon very much. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Frazier. 

Mr. Frazier. Mr. Pace, I notice that in August 1949 you saicl your 
address was Centerville, Tenn., route 1. How long did you live in 
Tennessee ? 

Mr. Pace. Since August 1947. 

Mr. Frazier. Do you still reside there ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes. 

Mr. Fr.\zier. At Centerville ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Frazier. You were born, I believe, in Kentucky ? 

Mr. Pace. Yes. 

Mr. Frazier. And then went to Michigan? 

Mr. Pace. No. I went to Tennessee from there, went to high school 
in Tennessee, the same address, and then went to Michigan in 1923. 

Mr. Frazier. And that was when you became associated with the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Pace. No, sir. 

Mr. Frazier. AVlien was that? 

Mr. Pace. 1931. 

Mr. Frazier. 1931? 

Mr. Pace. Yes. 

Mr. Frazier. After you went to Michigan? 

Mr. Pace. Yes. 

Mr. Frazier. You are still residing in Tennessee ? 

Mr. Pace. At present? 

Mr. Frazier. Yes. 

Mr. Pace. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Frazier. But you didn't come back to Tennessee until after 
you had renounced your allegiance to the Communist Party, and after 
you had been expelled, did you ? 

Mr. Pace. That is the party's 

Mr. Frazier. I notice you stated in here that you said they expelled 

Mr. Pace. They expel everybody that quits. 

Mr. Frazier. What business are you engaged in down there? 

Mr. Pace. I am in the sewer contracting business at Centerville, the 
Lincoln Construction Co. 

Mr. Frazier. All right. I was interested in that backgi-ound, to see 
when you came to Tennessee. 

Mr. Pace. Mj^ grandfather was a lieutenant in the Confederate 
Army in Tennessee, right where I live. 

Mr. Wood. For your information, the gentleman who was inter- 
rogating you is also from Tennessee. 

Mr. Doyle. You see, Mr. Pace, he is trying to get across to you that 
the climate and the atmosphere and the high level of citizenship in 
Tennessee would naturally contribute to your reformation. 

Mr. Pace. It is one of the States in which they were able to establish 
a nice school. 

Mr. Wood. Any further questions? 

Mr. Frazier. That is all. 


Mr. Wood. Mr. Velde. 

Mr. Velde. I know you said you would send the information that 
you obtained concerning the AYD at Wayne University. Did you find 
out in that investigation that the AYD, which is tlie successor to tlie 
YCL, is established or was established at that time on other campuses 
of other colleges throughout the country '^ 

Mr. Pace. Well, in tliese files that I am going to mail, it might be 
interesting to learn how they operate by saying that I have some leaflets 
that were printed for a student convention to be held at the University 
of Michigan, and there were other leaflets in this file that had been 
distributed at the University of Peiuisylvania and the College of the 
City of New York, with a lot of similarity; that is. the same phrase- 
ology, the same paragraphs as the leaflet that was distributed for the 
University of Michigan meeting. 

Mr. Velde. When was that? 

Mr. Pace. 1947; which shows that they had a national organiza- 
tion ; that this was going on, and then by the reports of the various 
universities and colleges revoking the charters and banning them from 
activity on the campuses, after our exposure up there. They had a 
chapter at AVayne and a chapter at the University of Michigan, and 
they had a group at Michigan State College, 

Mr. Velde. Do you think the mere act of the university or college 
official banning the organization from the campus was successful in 
actually banning them from the campus; or, did they go underground 
to any extent, or do you have any knowledge of that? 

Mr. Pace. Well, the good that comes out of exposure causes them to 
lose their membership in the AYD. The party knew that they could 
not get members to join the Young Communist League because of 
the Communist name. That is why they organized with a nice 
American name, American Youth for Democracy. Many of these 
kids who w^ere in it didn't know what they w^ere in. It serves to 
expose them, and gives these kids an op])ortunity to get out of it them- 
selves. And then, when the faculty of the university bans it from 
the campus, then the kids know that it is an illegal outfit, has no right 
to be there. 

Mr. Velde. I will agree with you on that point. 

Mr. Pace. That leaves them with their little handful of four or 
five. They are going to keep on hollering and haranguing, but they 
are not getting any place. 

Mr. Velde. Did you find that the AYD and the Communist Party 
were concentrating on youth in colleges and universities rather than 
other youths who did not go to college? Was there any particular 
concentration in colleges and universities? 

Mr. Pace. There was a particular concentration, because it was a 
large concentration. You see, in one college or one university there 
would be more kids than they would find in probably a dozen other 

Mr. Velde. I want to congratulate you on your testimony. There 
have been a lot of ex-Communists who have come before this com- 
mittee to testify, some of whom got out recently, some of whom are 
Johnny-come-latelies. However, you did get out of the jiarty early in 
the game. I congratulate you for your intelligent understanding of 
the conspiracy in 1935, when you left them, and I think that you have 
made a great contribution to America by your light against commu- 


nism since that time, and I hope that you continue your etforts along 
that line. 

Mr. Pace. I believe that the committee could put in just a little more 
effort in makino; a broader mass appeal for former ])arty members to 
come in and contact the committee. I think that it one of our short- 
comintrs. We have tried to form an oro:anization of ex-Communists, 
thoujjht that would be a door or a channel or avenue by which the 
former i)arty members could come in and cooperate with the Govern- 

Mr. Wood. In tliat connection, I might call your attention to the 
fact that the chairman of this committee has been on the radio 

Mr. Pace. I a])preciate that. 

Mr. Wood. Right along that line. 

Mr. Pace. I apjn-eciate that. It has not been stressed too strongly. 

Mr. Wood. I have been inviting former members of the Communist 
Party to come before this committee at any time they will. 

Mr. Pace. Outside of the expert witnesses on Communist theories 
and philosophies, these rank-and-file members right down in the units 
are the most valuable ones. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Kearney? 

Mr. Kearney. No questions. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Jackson? 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Pace, testimony that is as old as yours is, or 
your personal knowledge of it, would probably have to be discounted, 
but inasmuch as your testimony bears on a subject that has been pur- 
sued consistently and without deviation for over 100 3^ears, I think 
it is just as fresh as if it had been given yesterday. In your opinion, 
can a member of the Connnunist Party be a loyal American citizen ? 

Mr. Pace. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. We hear a lot of talk about peace. I assume you 
are for peace. 

Mr. Pace. TMienever you hear the Communist Party talking 
about one thing, you look for them to do something else. 

Mr. Jackson. You are for peace? 

Mr. Pace. Certainly. 

Mr. Jackson. Well, I think every member of this committee is for 
peace. What kind of a peace do you think we could get on Soviet 
terms ? What do vou think it would mean to the average individual 
]n this country to negotiate a peace, in light of the consistent 
record of the Communist Party for aggression outside their own 
frontiers? What do you think would happen to the average Amer- 
ican citizen? 

Mr. Pace. I can say this : You will never get peace with the Com- 
munist-controlled countries over the table. 

Mr. Jackson. You think there would be any freedom of speech in 
a peace that was negotiated through the Soviet Union ? Would there 
be any freedom to speak your own mind if we were placed in a position 
where we accepted the terms, or the terms were enforced upon us by 
the Soviet Union? Would you have any freedom of speech? 

Mr, Pace. Well, if we agreed on terms put forward by Soviet Rus- 
sia, we wouldn't have any freedom of anything, and we wouldn't 
have any Committee on Un-American Activities. 

Mr. Jackson. Of course, that probably is a fact that is well under- 
stood. But, I mean specifically, would you be able to speak your 
mind under a Soviet system ? 


Mr. Pace. No, sir. 

Mr, Jackson. Would you be able to gather freely ; would you have 
the right of assemblage'^ 

Mr. Pace. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Would you have the right to worship any God you 
might see fit to worship ? 

Mr. Pace. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. In other words, you would have nothing that is in the 
Bill of Rights which is currently being used by the Communist 
Party — you would have none of those rights guaranteed you, would 

Mr. Pace. No, sir ; positively not. 

Mr. Jackson. You said that you felt that the outlawing of the 
Communist Party Avould lead to driving it underground. Isn't it a 
fact, Mr. Pace, that most of the subversive and sabotage activities of 
the Communist Party are underground now, and have been for many 
years ? 

Mr. Pace. I think I stated that. I didn't say that outlawing 
the Communist Party would drive it underground. The record will 
show that I said that that is the propaganda that is thrown out, the 
propaganda that is thrown at us by the left-wing influences, that why 
drive them underground, let them stay out in the open. 

Mr. Jackson. I misunderstood your answer. 

Mr. Pace. The real leadership and the real espionage and sabotage 
is carried on by underground machiner}^, and always will be until 
after the revolution. 

Mr. Jackson. Would this be a fair statement of fact : It has become 
increasingly evident to me, through work on this committee and 
through listening to witnesses who appear, that actually there appear 
to be two branches of connnunism. There appears to be the rank-and- 
file community clubs, and so forth, who take the doctrines and know 
nothing about what is going on ; whereas, on the other hand, there is 
the underground apparatus, such as the Whittaker Chambers- Alger 
Hiss thing about which the average member knows nothing, but which 
functions with a fine line of communications, very closely knit and 
entirely apart from the thinking or from the activities of those people 
who are in community groups or in small community party cells. 

Mr. Pace. It isn't just the rank and file; even the district organizers 
and the leaders in the various districts don't know what is going on in 
the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jackson. But there are two separate lines. 

Mr. Pace. Well, I wouldn't say two separate groups. I would say 
it is the same group working in two separate directions, independent 
of one another. 

Mr. Kearney. That former statement of yours that the district 
chairman or State chairman doesn't know what is going on either will 
be quite a revelation to several individuals who have been sitting in 
this room listening to the testimony of witnesses here on the stand for 
the past several weeks. 

Mr. Pace. I can't help that. I know the organizational structure of 
the party, that you might have a district organizer, for instance, 
in the State of Michigan carrying on the pro])agauda and organiza- 
tional work in the open. There may be two or three somewhere in 
that district that are carrying on work under the Comintern agent in 
New York that they don't even know is there. 


Mr. Kearney. That is what I was bringing to your attention, that 
several of these district leaders that have been in this very committee 
room for several weeks past; those are the individuals that you are 
now telling us don't even know what is going on themselves. 

Mr. Pace. I would say they don't know everything that is going on. 
They don't know all about this underground machinery. You see, 
the Comintern agent, or some specific real hardened and revolution- 
ary experienced revolutionist has his trick working in the district, 
and the party organization in that district doesn't know anything 
about him. 

Mr. Jackson. That is precisely the point I was trying to make, 
that the two are separated, except in the top echelons of command 
where the contact comes together. 

Mr. Pace. That is right. 

Mr. Jackson. Where would you say the allegiance of the Com- 
munist Party member who is elected to public office belongs ^ Does it 
belong to the people he is elected to represent, or does it belong to 
the hierarchy of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Pace. I didn't get the first part of your question. 

Mr. Jackson. The allegiance of a Communist Party member elected 
to public office, where is his allegiance owed ; is it owed to Communist 
philosophy and Communist principles, or is it owed to the people he 

Mr. Pace. His allegiance is owed to the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jackson. To the Communist Party? 

Mr. Pace. The Communists are taught in the schools to try to get 
elected to public office for the purpose of exposing the functions of 
that branch of the state to the masses as a fake, as a part of the power 
of the state, and his duty is to carry on demonstrations and to drama- 
tize certain situations which the party is interested in, by virtue of the 
use of his position in public office. It is only supposed to be used for 
that, not to cooperate or to help carry out the progi*am of the state. 

Mr. Jackson. During the period of time you were a member of 
the Communist Party, what would have been your actions if you 
observed an act of sabotage being committed by another member of 
the Communist Party ? Would you have reported it ? 

Mr. Pace. No. 

Mr. Jackson. You think a Communist would report an act of 
sabotage or espionage which he observed taking place and being done 
by another member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Pace. No. If he did, he would certainly be expelled. He 
would be lucky to get out with that. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Any further questions, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Pace, 1 was very much interested in your comment 
a while ago with respect to the immigration and naturalization laws, 
in which you suggested that we could probably accomplish a better 
result if we had some machinery for the confinement of people -who 
have been, through the regular and orderly procedures of law, declared 
to be undesirable citizens and ordered deported, and then couMn't 
find a haven some place else, because the country of their origin 
wouldn't accept them. It was explained to you that we have certain 
laws now, the weakness of which, as I see it, is this: The existing 


law leaves it in the hands of any Federal judge in the jurisdiction 
■vvliere that party may be to release him under bond at the discretion 
of the judge; otherwise he is kept in confinement. 

As I see it, the weakness of it is that it so happens that it isn't very 
difficult for these people who have been ordered deported' as undesir- 
able citizens, the country of whose origin refuses to accept them, to 
get before some Federal judge that will allow them bail, where they 
can go right back out among the people of America and carry on their 
nefarious activities. 

Do you agree with ine that that power, that discretion of any judge 
to admit a man to bail who has been declared an undesirable citizen 
and ordered deported from this country 

Mr. Pace. I started to comment awhile ago, when he told me about 
the law. I saw right away that based upon how bad characters they 
were, you know, whether they could be let out on bail, or so forth, and 
that means the judgment of too many different people. 

Mr. "Wood. Wouldn't, in your estimation, their character be suffi- 
cient, when they have been ordered deported^ 

Mr. Pace. It should be sufficient. But, as he explained the law, it 
is not that way. It is left in the power of some judge. 

Mr. Walter. Of course, the alternative is the creation of institu- 
tions that we have been criticized for erecting ever since Bucheuwald, 
which I saw, and I don't think that the American people want that. 

Mr. Pace. I think that if an alien Communist has been established, 
to the satisfaction of the immigration authorities, of carrying out 
work for the Communist Party, and to order his de})ortation, I think 
that that should end there. I think upon that basis they should be 

Mr. Wood. I am going to agree with you on that, because I happen 
to know that we have many in this country 

Mr. Walter. Two thousand eight hundred and thirty-seven as of 
June 1. 

Mr. Wood (continuing) . Who have been judged by com])etent juris- 
diction to be a menace to the security of the country, and when that 
has been done by competent jurisdiction, I don't feel there should 
be any discretion in anybody's hands to permit them to go back out 
and engage in their activities among the citizens of America. 

Mr. Pace. Could I just 

Mr. Wood. If we had such a law as that, they would find refuge, 
where they now cannot find it in some other country. 

Mr. Pace. I would like to state one example in a case that I testi- 
fied in last summer in Xew York against Xydia Barker, alias Dr. 
Luthy, who came over here as a young girl from Russia, carried out 
Communist activities all of her life, and finally married a quite 
wealthy man up in Michigan, graduated and received a degree from 
the University of INIichigan, and Avas a professor of biochemistry in 
Stanford University. 

I appeared against her in San Francisco. She was also being 
ari-aigned the following day for perjury, where she swore that she 
was born in tliis country, and her former school record showed that 
she was born in liussia. 

Well, she was ordered deported and, as I understand it, a compro- 
mise was made to drop the ])erjury proceedings and let her auto- 
matically go to Palestine. Avliere she is in a position to still carry 


on her iiiternatioiuil conspiracy, because, slie is a trained Connnunist, 

Mr. Walter. What would you have done with her? 

JVfr. Pace. I woukl have lield lier on tlie perjury charfre and interned 
her. Certain!}' you coukl liave put her in jail for that. 

Mr. AValter. Who would have taken care of her children? 

Mr. Pace. As far as I know, she doesn't have any children. She 
has a husband who is crazy about her, who is worth plenty of money 
to take care of a lot of childi'en, if she did have them. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I don't think that internino- neces- 
sarily connotes Buchenwald. 

Mr. Walter. I say, it leads to that sort of thino;. 

Mr. Jacksox. I think certainly that anyone who is considered 
to be and is found to constitute a menace and a danger certainly 
should be subjected to surveillance, whether that be interning or any- 
thing else of the sort, and to have that number of people wandering 
around at large appears to me to be not in the best interests of the 
security of the United States, and I think that the gentleman would 
agree in that connection. 

I personally, so far as I am concerned, would be in favor of fix- 
ing up very comfortable, a little Diomede Island, or something, with 
comfortable accommodations, and arrange for one Soviet speedboat 
run every week across. It is a very short distance, even put in dock- 
ing facilities so they could be picked up. 

Mr. Kearney. With no return ticket. 

Mr. Jackson. Obviously, if they favor the Soviet system, it ap- 
pears to be poetic justice that they should be permitted to enjoy 

Mr. Walter. Suppose they couldn't get off the ship, as was the case 
of one man some time ago. He got to the gangplank, and the Rus- 
sian soldiers said : "You are not coming off the ship." There are 
many cases of people who are riding back and forth right now. 

Mr. Jackson. We have been tiTing to get rid of Mr. Bridges for a 
long period of time. I can understand the reluctance of anybody to 
take him. 

Mr. Wood. The question that Mr. Walter is asking is rather analo- 
gous, I think, to a man who commits murder and is sentenced to be 
executed, and you can't find a man willing to execute him, so you are 
going to turn him loose and let him go out and kill somebody else. 
I think that is a fair analogy to make. 

Mr. AValter. Well, I wouldn't 

Mr. Doyle. I am sure we are all mighty proud of the fact, neverthe- 
less, that we are citizens of a nation that bends over backward, bends 
over vigorously to give the freedom and every right under the Bill 
of Rights to any citizen, and a maximum of • 

Mr. Kearney. Would the gentleman yield? 

Mr. i^oYLE. I don't want that observation to indicate, however 

Mr. Kearn?:y. W^ith the bending over that we have been doing for 
Jill th.ese years, we have the bends. 

Mr. Walter. I would like to say for the benefit of you gentlemen, 
that if you know a solution, I would like to know what it is. Mr. 
Hobbs and I wrestled with this i)roblem for 8 years, and what we have 
come up with and what is in the law now is the only solution that we 
could think of. 

wo I wi\i ruBLIU LIBRARY 

1964 3 99QQ nt^AAK^ /loco g veterans' grolj- 

3 9999 05445 4853 

Mr. Wood. That would have a fair chance of passing the Congress. 

Mr, Walter. And, in addition to that, be constitutional. 

Mr. Wood. Well, in any event, I want to express to you, Mr. Pace,, 
my personal appreciation, and I am sure I express the appreciation 
of the other members, not only for your presence but for the very 
valuable assistance you have given the American people over the past 
15 years or better in undertaking to combat this menace. I hope that 
your presence here hasn't caused you any inconvenience from your 
present affairs. 

If there are no further questions from either members of the com- 
mittee or counsel, is there any reason why Mr. Pace shouldn't be ex- 
cused from further attendance? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Pace. Could I make one more statement? 

Mr. Wood. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Pace. I am proud, too, that we have a country where we can 
bend so far backward. I think the situation at present has to put us 
on the alert that we don't bend so far backward that we can't get back 
straight up again. 

Also, on the question of this legislation, something is going to have 
to be done about members of the party, because at present, as I under- 
stand the law, before you can convict a person of conspiring to over- 
throw the Government by force and violence, you have got to prove 
that he personally, as an individual, has advocated the overthrow of 
the Government by force and violence. There are many who have 
never made that statement to anyone that can be brought in as a wit- 
ness. There are not so many of us fellows running around. So, it is 
difficult to do anything with some of these people who are very danger- 
ous but have not made those utterances tliat can be proven in court. 

Mr. Wood. Your views on that subject, of course, are very much 
appreciated by members of the committee. We are charged, among 
other things, with proposing remedial legislation to the Congress 
along such lines as that. 

Mr. Velde. I might make the belated observation here that we have 
been bending over backward to protect the rights of the Communist 
Party members, all of the rights that are guaranteed to them under 
the Constitution, and I thoroughly agree that we should do tliat. 
However, it appears to me that maybe we have been denying the pro- 
tection to the great majority of our American people by so doing, 
because we know that the Communist Party is definitely trying to 
destroy those very things. 

Mr. Wood. You mean, the American people are entitled to some 
rights ? 

Mr. Velde. That is right; the majority of the American people. 

Mr. Wood. Because of a roll call, the committee is going to have 
to stand in recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon. 

Mr. Pace. I would like to conclude by saying that when this com- 
mittee was hanging in the balance, when there was mass sentiment 
for the abolishment of this committee, I made a lot of speeches for the 
continuity of this committee. 

Mr. Wood. Thank you. 

(Thereupon, at 12: 10 p. m., the committee recessed until 2 p. m. 
of the same day.)