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CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
CONVERSATIONS WITH
NAPOLEON AT
ST. HELENA
BY
HENRY MEYNELL
(h.m.s. Newcastle)
LONDON \
ARTHUR L. HUMPHREYS
187 Piccadilly, W
1911
4
CAPTAIN H. MEYNELL, R.N.
The Roister of Quorn Church gives August 24,
1789, as the date of baptism of Henry Meynell,
the 2nd Son of Hugo Meynell of Hoar Cross,
Co. Stafford, by the Honble. Elizabeth Ingram,
3rd Daughter and Co-heiress of Charles 9th
Viscount Irwin, of Temple Newsam, Yorkshire.
Henry Meynell entered the Royal Navy in
June, 1803, *"^ ^** actively employed during
the first seven years of his Service on the
Mediterranean and Home Stations. He after-
wards sailed as Lieut, of the Theban with a
convoy for the East Indies and China.
He was next appointed acting Commander
ot the Arrogant at Bombay in 1813, and in
August of the same year was promoted to be
Commander of the Cornwallis.
In 1 8 15 he became aaing Captain, and in
1816 he was confirmed in the rank of Captain
while serving in the Newcastle, the Flagship of
Rear-Admiral Sir Pulteney Malcolm, who was
Commander - in - Chief at St. Helena Station,
specially appointed to enforce a rigid blockade
of the Island, and to keep a close guard on
Buonaparte.
His Commissions in the Royal Navy bore
date as follows :
Lieut.
.
.
8
Nov.
1809.
Commander
.
24
Aug.
1813.
Captain
.
10
April
1 8 16.
Rear-Admiral
(reserved
list)
29
April
1851.
Vice-Admiral
.
.
9
July
1857.
Admiral .
.
.
4
October
1862.
Captain Meynell represented the Borough of
Lisburn in Parliament from 1826 to 1847. He
was appointed Gentleman Usher to Geo. IV.
in the early part of 1820 and held a similar
appointment for a short time under William IV.,
and for some years, up to April 1845, ^^ ^
Groom-in-Waiting to her late Majesty Q^ueen
Victoria.
Admiral Meynell died unmarried in Paris,
MArch 25, 1865.
VI
A NOTE
Sir Pulteney Malcolm while on the St.
Helena Station had frequent interviews with
Napoleon, and his notes of the conversations
which took place on these occasions were pub-
lished in 1899, under the title of A Diary of
St. Helena^ 18 16-18 17, by Lady Malcolm.
In these visits Captain Meynell often accom-
panied his Admiral, took part in the conversations,
and evidently kept a careful record of what passed
in his presence and hearing. In these circum-
stances his Memorandum necessarily contains
much that was already anticipated in the Diary,
so that those who are acquainted with the earlier
publication will feel that the two narratives
cover, to a considerable extent, the same ground.
Nevertheless, Captain Meynell's recollections un-
doubtedly contain fresh matter in addition to
what is related by Sir P. Malcolm; they supple-
ment and confirm the account given in the Diary,
while there is often sufficient variety in the two
versions of the same conversation, in the particular
language used by Napoleon, and in the different
vil
impressions left by these interviews upon the two
officers, by what he said, by his manner and
personality, to give value and importance to
Captain Meynell's independent recollections. For
these reasons, and having regard to the peculiar
interest which attaches to the subject, it has been
considered that Captain Meynell's Memorandum,
which has been recently found among some
^unily papers, is worth preservation, and it has
accordingly been printed in the present form.
Till
MEMORANDA
BV
CAPTAIN HENRY MEYNELL,
H.M.S. 'NEWCASTLE; ST. HELENA.
'T'HIS morning (June 20th, 18 16) Captain
•*• Cochrane, Mr. Irving and myself
accompanied the Admiral, who with the
Governor and his Staff went to Longwood,
for the purpose of the Admiral's being intro-
duced to Buonaparte on his first arrival at
St. Helena. When we arrived we were shown
into a Room, in which we found Generals
Montholon and Gourgaud, after remiaining
a short time, the Admiral and Governor
were ushered into the next Apartment by
Count Bertrand, where they were received
by Napoleon who had also the Count Las
Cases with him. They remained together
about a Quarter of an hour, the Door was
then opened, the rest of the party went in,
and were separately introduced to Buona-
parte, after the usual Salutation to those
of the Governor's Staff whom he knew.
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
He turned to Colonel Wynyard (whom he
observed to be wounded) and asked where
he got the wound, on being told Santa
Maura. Ah, said he, par Les Brigands,
cela ne vaut pas La peine, he then asked
after Mrs. W. and looking at Captain
Cochrane, and myself asked if we were not
Capitaines de Fregates. After which, a few
general observations were made on the
Wr., &c. when we all made our Bows and
retired. In his Appearance He struck me
as resembling a Picture painted by Robert
Lefevbre only considerably stouter. His
face remarkably Pale, a very thick neck,
& Broad Shoulders, a well made Leg and
Foot, in Height about 5 feet 5 inches (it
was remarked by Ldy. M. a few days after-
wards that he had also a very Handsome
Hand). In his dress he was not particularly
neat. He wore a single breasted Green Coat,
or Habit de Chasse with a velvet Collar and
Silver Buttons, having the figures of different
animals on them. He had on the Star of
the Legion of Honour, White Breeches,
Silk Stockings, and Shoes, with Gold Oval
Buckles. He kept his Cocked Hat under
his left arm, with that hand generally in
his Pocket, the other was occupied with a
SnufF Box out of which he took a good
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
deal of Snuff. His figure though fine is
certainly not graceful. He spoke quick,
and I thought his French difficult to under-
stand. His countenance was pleasant, and
he seemed in good humour. He is irregular
in his meals, but generally breakfasts at ii,
and dines at eight. He Remains in His
Apartments until 4 in the afternoon, when
he walks or drives out until sunset.
Bertrand has since informed me that he
often gets up in the middle of the Night
and writes, or reads for an hour or two,
having contracted that habit at an early
period when Commanding his Armies.
The Admiral went up to Longwood this
day (June 25th, 181 6) with Ldy. M. On
the Road they stopped at Count Bertrand's
House, Hut's Gate, to pay a visit to Madame
B., they found there Bonaparte's Carriage
with 6 horses, which on hearing she was
coming to see him, he had sent for her, and
Madame B. who accompanied Lady M. in
the Carriage, 2 French Postillions drove it
at a gallop along a narrow road bounded
on one side by a Precipice called the
Devil's Punch Bowl, and on entering the
Gate of Longwood they nearly overturned
it. On their arrival B. received Lady M.
most graciously; asked her several questions;
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
How she bore so long a sea voyage; and if
she was not very sea sick ? He then asked
her if she was fond of hunting, as he under-
stood that Ladies in England were partial
to that amusement. He talked to her
much about Ossian's Poems, which he had
always admired, Lady M. remarked that
they had been very generally admired on
the Continent, as they had been translated
into all languages. Ah, said he, it was I
that brought them into Fashion on the
Continent, I have even been accused of
having my head filled with Ossian*s Clouds.
He mentioned some names in it which
resembled the Italian (viz.) D'Arthulla and
Comalla two poems he particularly admired.
He said he had seen two translations of
them in French, that neither were good,
but that the one he had seen in Italian, was
excellent and beautiful. He then asked
Lady M. if she thought them genuine, that
there had been many controversies about
them, and whether she did not think that
Macpherson had written them. Lady M.
replied, That she did not think Macpherson
capable of writing them, that the Highland
Society had taken much pains to investigate
it, and proved their authenticity.
The Admiral this time (July 4th, 18 16)
4
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
took with him the Officers of the Newcastle
previous to their being introduced to Bona-
parte. He saw the Admiral alone for about
two hours when the Officers were introduced,
and they took leave. He does not appear to
have made up his mind to remaining at St.
Helena all his life. He asked the Admiral,
If he thought he would be kept here for
ever. The A. replied. Yes, and endeavoured
to persuade him to be contented. B. said
we ought to have confined him in England,
he would have liked it much better. He
could have taken exercise on the top of a
prison, and he would then have had access
to all the books requisite for writing His
History. Why send him to such a vile
island as this. He said he should be dead
in three years. The Admiral remarked
that he hoped not, that it would take him
that time to finish his history. He smiled
at this, and talked of something else. The
Admiral thought he bore contradiction
better than he expected, provided you diffi^r
from him in a Mild Manner. In speaking
of the Commissioners from the Allied
Powers now at St. Helena, He observed.
How can I receive them ! ! It would be
acknowledging I am a Prisoner to their
Masters; What could I say to the Austrian
5
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
(the Baron de Sturmer) who comes without
a kind word, or even a line from my
Father-in-law, to say my son His Grandson
is well ; and what to the Russian (Count
Balmain) whose Master has been at my
feet and has so often called me his best
friend, I have volumes of their letters,
which would shew, what they owed to me.
In saying this he became animated & His
Countenance put on a severe look. (The
Admiral here remarked that he hoped
he would one of these days publish them
to the world). He then continued, as to
the Frenchman (The Marquis de Mont-
chenu) I am less embarassed with him,
Louis owes me nothing. He spoke of Lord
Nelson, He said he had heard Lord Nelson's
mode of attack at Trafalgar criticised.*
The Admiral said, not by Judges, that it
was impossible to form any regular plan
of attack so near the shore, that had the
two fleets met in the open sea, & been of
equal force, that Lord Nelson's method
would have been different, that he (the
Adl.) thought Ld. Nelson the greatest
Naval Character that had ever appeared.
* Admiral Villeneuve destroyed himself at Rouen, where
he had been ordered to remain until a Court Martial had
assembled. He was a brave man though not possessed of
talent.
6
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
In this B. fully concurred, and remarked
that the French seamen were certainly not
so good as ours, that they had never done
anything very Brilliant at sea, but that they
had on many occasions defended their flag
with honour to themselves.
Toulon Fleet, he said, he had given the
Command of it to Admiral Allemand, as
he was a rough, strict officer, that he knew
he would make every person do his duty,
that for the last 3 Years he had kept every-
body on board that he would not give
them permission to go on shore. That he
had ordered Allemand to stand out towards
the English Fleet every day and manoeuvre
but not to risk an action, their awkwardness
at first caused great expense, but latterly
they became more expert.
The Adl. asked him why he did not
attack the right of the English line, at the
Battle of Waterloo, where it was weakest.
He replied, a General always calculates on
the Characters of the Officers opposed to
him. I knew Wellington was an Officer
of Method, and never moved his Army
without having his arrangements complete.
The other, Blucher, I knew was a
perfect Hussard, and if I had attacked the
English First, I should have had him on
7
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
me at full Gallop. Grouchy followed up
his Victory over the Prussians too far, I
thought I should have had time to have
beat them, but Grouchy was unable to keep
the remainder in Check as I had ordered
him, and my Guards charging too soon, this
caused the loss of the Battle of Waterloo.
He spoke of the Bourbons, That when
Louis returned to France he ought to have
considered himself as the Beginner of the
Fifth dynasty, that he ought to have said to
the People, You have had a great revolu-
tion during which great atrocities have been
committed, France has done great things,
you chose an Emperor who increased and
raised the Glory of France. Great changes
have induced you to recall my family to the
Throne, I will forget all that is past, and com-
mence a new dynasty. He then said that
the Bourbons were insecurely seated on the
Throne that they sat on a Smothered Volcano.
July 25th, 1 8 16. — ^The Admiral went up
alone to Longwood, and took up some French
Papers, which had just arrived by the Griffin
from England. B. asked the Admiral if
the Papers contained any news ? The Adl.
replied that they mentioned the prorogation
of the Chambers, and the condemnation of
Bertrand. The Adl. said the cause assigned
8
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
for Proroguing them, was the fear that
they would not grant so much as forty-six
millions to the Clergy. No replied B., I do
not see how they could, I had much trouble
in getting them twelve millions of Francs.
The French are not a religious nation.
He observed that the condemnation of
Bcrtrand was useless as, by the laws of
France, it could never be put in execution,
without a fresh trial; bethought the French
Government would have acted more wisely
(If they wanted examples) to have fixed on
many others not so immediately about his
person, and that if they had wished to
establish themselves, they ought at first to
have proceeded with more vigour, and
decision, that the Prisons were now full.
Of the disturbance at Grenoble mentioned
in the same Papers, He remarked that
those sort of petty insurrections only added
strength to the Government.
Lady M. rode up with the Admiral
this morning (August loth, 1816), as they
came opposite the stables, they met B. in
his carriage driving out with Madame
Montholon. On observing them he stepped
out, and asked Lady M., Laughing, If she
would take a drive round the Park.
He then handed her in, got in himself,
9 B
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
and called to Madame Montholon, and the
Admiral to follow, They drove at full
gallop, about a mile in extent round a
dreary ridge that forms Fisher's Valley. On
coming to one very dismal spot. He asked
Lady M., If that was like Ossian's Country.
As they approached the Garden on their
return, He observed to Lady M., Are you
fond of Gardening or of Flowers ? Voila un
Jardin, said he, pointing to a brown border
without the least sign of vegetation. When
they got up to the House B. remarked that
it was late, and they took leave.
The conversation this time was but
short. He asked Lady M., If she knew
Lord Kinnaird, & where he was. He asked
also, how many Scottish Peers were Peers
of Parliament, which she not being able to
answer, he appeared a little out of humour,
but on her explaining the Mode of Electing
the 1 6 Peers, and that many Scottish Peers
were English Peers, he seemed satisfied.
August I St, 1816. — Went with Captain
Festing and Murray, of Falmouth and Griffin,
to pay a visit to Napoleon, whom they had
not yet seen. B. was in the Billiard Room
where we were introduced to him by Ber-
trand,who said, To His Majesty the Emperor.
He began the conversation, by asking Captain
10
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Festing what vessel he commanded, whether
she was a Ship or a Brig. Captain F. replied,
a Corvette. How long from England,
whether she had not been at Gibraltar, and
the Mediterranean, and If he was not going
to the Pacific Ocean.* Captain Festing
answered, That he did not know, but
that he was going to the Cape of Good
Hope. Upon Captain F. saying he did not
know. He gave Bertrand a look, which
betrayed considerable ferocity, and conveyed
the Best possible Idea of his quick transition
of Countenance. He then again repeated
the Question, and did not appear to credit,
that Captain F. was going to the Cape.
Bertrand then took notice of my being in
some surprise, (or rather at a smile which
I believe was on my Countenance) partly
* Note, — Captain Feasting was about to sail with secret
Orders, to take possession of the Island of Tristan d'Acunha
previous to going to the Cape. Some erroneous Reports that
had reached B. on this subject had probably induced him to
put the question about the South Seas. Captain Festingfs
Orders being secret, of course he could only say he was
going to the Cape, which he was to do after taking possession
of the Island.
Bertrand told me on our quitting the room that B. was
displeased at having no Apartment to receive us in, Sc that
had he not supposed that Festing would not return, he would
not have seen him. The room he generally received companj
in was then under repair from a fire that had lately aken
place there.
41
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
created by B. persevering in supposing
Captain F. going to the South Seas, and
partly by Bertrand*s appearance after Nafs
Look. B. then continued, are there not
many Islands in the Pacific Ocean ? Is the
Coast of New Holland well known ? Are
there any dangers off it ? He then turned
to me, and asked what Brig I commanded,
and to Captain Murray, what Country he
came from. He then Bowed, turned his
back, and walked away evidently in 111
humour. The sky was a little clouded,
passing by the window, he shrugged up
his shoulders & remarked. It was a miser-
able Climate.
The Admiral rode up to Longwood alone
this afternoon (August i6th, 1816). He
found Napn. engaged looking at an Ice
Machine lately sent out to him & Invented
by Professor Leslie. He much admired the
construction of it, and said that He wondered
it had not been invented before, the Process
was so simple. A Thermometer was placed
in one of the freezing cups. B. tried to take
it out & in the attempt broke it, on which
he exclaimed. Ah, this is worthy of me.
He then observed that there were more
Chymists in France than in England, and
that the study was more general. The
12
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Adl. asked him If he had heard of Sir
Humphry Davy. He replied he had seen
him at Paris. He then proposed to the
Adl. a walk in the Garden, which they
accordingly did. He resorted to His
favourite Topic Egypt. He asked, How-
much a Ship of the Line could be Light-
ened to, so as to take her over a Shoal
into a Harbour. He said. Had Admiral
Bruix taken my Advice, he would have
saved his Fleet, by getting it into Alex-
andria. That Captain Barre had sounded,
and reported that there was sufficient water
to admit the Fleet, but that Admiral Bruix
was of a different opinion.* The Admiral
remarked that Barre had fought a gallant
action in the Rivoli, and was considered by
us a Good Officer. Yes, said he. But he
has not met with the reward he merited.
One of your Brigs assisted in taking him. I
ordered the Rivoli to be built in the Gulph
of Venice, in a place where there was so
little water, that she was obliged to be
floated over the shoals, on Camels similar
to those used by the Dutch, but improved
* B. in the meantime advanced into the Interior with the
Army, all communication with the Fleet by Messengers was
cut off* by the Bedouin Arabs, who intercepted and murdered
them, otherwise He would ha>-e ordered them to Alexaodria.
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
upon by my Engineers. He then asked
what was the Best mode of Arming a Ship
of the Line, and whether it was best to
aim at the Hull or Rigging. He said
that he had proposed arming a three Deck
Ship entirely with 32 Pounders, of different
Lengths, but that his Engineers objected
to it.
The Adml. said, that he did also,
because it frequently happened that the
Lower deck Ports could not be opened,
and then the long 24 Pounders would have
an advantage over the short thirty twos.
He asked what nations had abolished the
Slave trade, and said that we ought to
have obliged the Portuguese to have relin-
quish it entirely. The Admiral explained,
that it would be so in few years & that
now they were not peripitted to trade
to the Northward of the Equator, that all
vessels found there were seized.
B. asked what we did with the slaves.
The Adl. answered that we landed them
at Sierra Leone, where they were provided
for and Implements of Husbandry were
given to them, &c. He said that was
Good, very Good, that in time, Africa, by
their spreading into the Interior, might
become civilized. There was an iron tank
14
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
at Longwood, taken out of one of the
ships, He asked, How long they had been
in use in the Navy. He thought it an
excellent invention and wondered he had
not before heard of it.
The Admiral went up to Longwood alone
this day (September 21st, 18 16), being the
one before our sailing to the Cape, to take
leave of Buonaparte. This was the first visit,
after the dispute B. had with the Governor.
He avoided making any sort of Complaint
to the Adl. and merely talked on General
subjects, on the Passage to the Cape, &c.
He spoke of the Dutch Nation, that
they had become a more simple and idle
People, than any other in Europe, that
they had no Navy until he taught them
to build ships at Antwerp. He said it was
his intention to have made an Arsenal at
Cuxhaven.
He mentioned the Russian, and German
Soldiers, that the former were the bravest
men, that the latter were not good troops.
The Admiral asked his opinion of the
Cossacks. He said that they were the most
enterprising Men he knew, that they would
pass through a Country that they had
never before seen, in the most extraordinary
manner ; but that they were not formidable
15
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
in Bodies, nor fit to contend with an Army,
that he had not seen one of them at the
Battle of Borodino, but that they after-
wards annoyed him much, that they were
accustomed to such warfare, and [had] been
brought up to it from their Infancy.
We arrived from the Cape on the 23rd,
and this day (November 25th, 18 16) I
accompanied the Admiral to Longwood,
His first visit after our return. On the road
we visited Betrand and Madame B. and on
our arrival there we also visited Montholon,
Madame M. and Gourgaud, & conversed
with them about half an hour on general
subjects (in which they appeared pleased
at the Admiral's return) until B. sent to
say he was ready to see the Admiral.
We then went to the Billiard Room,
and as on the former occasion, the Admiral
went first to him, with Bertrand, and
stopped about half an hour, leaving me
with Montholon and Gourgaud. I was
then called in, and after recognising me.
He began by asking me. If I had been
sick during the voyage (I was then not
very well), upon my saying No, He
then asked me If I was married. I
answered No. And the Admiral observed
that I was young enough. B. next asked
16
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
my age. The Admiral then added, laugh-
ing, that sailors ought not to marry too
soon, as they were often absent a long time
from their wives. B. was silent a short
time and then said Yes ! I believe you are
right, Les femmes Quelquefois font des
sottises. He then asked me. If the New-
castle was not an uneasy ship, and turning
to the Admiral asked if I was not Capitaine
de Pavilion. He remained silent a few
Minutes, we then Bowed, wished him good
Morning, and withdrew. I thought B.
this day appeared more sallow, and rather
thinner.
He was dressed in a plain Green Coat,
double breasted with a Fall down Collar,
and a handsome Star of the Legion of
Honour. He began the Conversation with
the Admiral with asking him, how he
was, and how Lady M. had borne the
voyage, whether during the Passage to the
Cape we had not experienced much Bad
Weather, and a few other Questions on
that subject. He then asked about the
establishment at Tristan d'Acunha (lately
taken possession of) what sort of an Island
it was, and If it would be a good place
for ships to stop at. He then spoke of
the Expedition mentioned in the News-
17
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
papers, as fitting out against the Algerines.
The extensive manner in which we were
undertaking it He disapproved of. He
thought a Man of Lord Exmouth*s Rank
and Character, ought not to have been sent.
He said we ought merely to have block-
aded the Port, and that when the Algerines
found they were prevented carrying on
their trade, they would have cut each
others' throats. He repeated the story of
the Dey, who on being told that Louis
the Fourteenth was fitting out an expedi-
tion against Algiers, said that. If he would
send him half the Money the Expedition
would cost. He, the Dey, would himself
burn the Town. B. then added, that If
we succeeded we should gain great credit
in the Mediterranean, but that if we
failed, it would make the Algerines more
Impudent.
On our return, we called at Madame
Bertrand*s, they had moved into their new
House within the Grounds of Longwood,
which appears tolerably comfortable & well
furnished. She remarked to me that it
seemed to her as if she had lived all her
life in a village, and was now removed
to a Palace, the difference of the two
Habitations was so great (this was com-
i8
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
paring it with the House we had left her
in). She asked us several questions ; How
we thought Buonaparte looked, &c., 6c
spoke much of her wish to leave the Island,
which she seemed most anxious to do.
Amongst other things, she observed that
B. never allowed waltzing at Court, and
that he highly disapproved of it. Madame
B., I think is an agreeable interesting
woman, speaks English perfectly. Bertrand
seems a good natured Man, always in low
Spirits, & does not appear to possess that
strength of Mind, which from his attach-
ment to Napoleon one might suppose him
to have. They have 4 children, one an
Infant just born, the other three, two Boys
& a Girl are very pretty and nice Children
with excellent manners. Both Bertrand &
Madame B. seem much attached to them.
Montholon is a good looking little man,
but I do not think him or Madame agree-
able. He has the Character of being a great
Lyar. Gourgaud seems clever, and has more
conversation than any of them, but I believe
is occasionally a great Boaster.
Montholon told me this day, that the
Tent which the Newcastle's Men had put
up, was the greatest agrement possible, and
the place of all others that B. most enjoyed
19
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
himself in when the weather was fine. On
our Quitting Bertrand's House we met at
the Door the Governor, with all his staff,
who with Sir G. Bingham were just arrived
for the purpose of Arresting Comte Las
Cases, for an attempt which he had made
to send a letter to England, concealed in
the lining of a Waistcoat, belonging to a
young Islander who had been his Servant.
The Father of whom, having discovered
it, gave information. Comte Las Cases
was accordingly arrested. All his Papers
seized, and himself conveyed that Evening
to Ross Cottage belonging to Mr. Balcombe,
a Guard was placed over him, and he
remained a Prisoner there until a few days
previous to his Embarkation in the Griffin,
Sloop of War, for the Cape.
In the course of conversation this day
with Montholon and Gourgaud, Piontouski
the Pole was mentioned. He had arrived
at the Cape previous to the Newcastle's
quitting it. They both called him an
adventurer, and said that Bonaparte knew
nothing of him until his return from Elba,
where it appeared he had been a Private
in his Guards, and from that reason was
first induced to promote him. They ex-
pressed no regret at his departure.
20
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Captain Wauchope and myself accom-
panied the Admiral this day (January 1 1 th,
1 817) to Longwood, after visiting Madame
Bertrand where we stopped about half an
hour, the Count came back for us, and we
went into the Billiard Room. The Admiral
then saw him alone for about 3 hours.
Montholon and Gourgaud were left with us.
During this Interview we heard Buonaparte
often Laugh Loudly apparently in high
Spirits. The two Frenchmen remarked that
they had not for a Length of time heard B.
Laugh, as we were then hearing him.
He also spoke so loud, that with a little
attention we might have heard what he
said distinctly. On the Admiral's being
about to retire. He mentioned Captain
Wauchope and myself being in the next
room, we were then introduced. He asked
a few Questions of Captain Wauchope,
what Ship he commanded. How old
he was — Then Bowed to me, asked me
how I was, and wished us all Good
Morning.
His Conversation with the Admiral
began about Lord Exmouth's Expedition
against the Algerines, the Success of which
we had just heard. He thought the Victory
Brilliant, and that it would give eclat to
31
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
England, but the British Navy stood so
high, they were not in want of it. He
adhered to his former Opinion, that he
expressed before Ld. Exmouth's success was
known, (viz.) that it would have been better
to have brought the Algerines to reason by
the Blockading System, than by knocking
down their Batteries, that it would only
teach them to build them up on an
improved plan. He said he saw no pro-
vision made against their Building more
vessels, that although it would be some
time before they could build large Ships,
yet they would purchase small ones which
were the most troublesome. We had
agreed that they should not make any
more Christian Slaves, but we had not
stipulated that Prisoners were not to be
made, and that in the latter situation,
their treatment would be worse than in
the former, for it was the Interest of a
Man to treat his Slave well being his
Property.
He then conversed about Egypt. He
said he Landed there with thirty-one
thousand Musquets, that his losses there
were trifling, very few at the Battle of
the Pyramids, at the Siege of Acre, he
had Sixteen hundred killed, and about
22
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
four thousand wounded.* About twentv-
two thousand afterwards returned to France.
He praised Sir Sydney Smith, and said he
shewed much talent in making the Con-
vention of EI Arish, and much honour
towards Kleber, For when he learnt that
the treaty was not confirmed by the British
Government he prevented him from giving
up to the Turks the Citadel of Damietta.
He said he thought the British Government
did right in not confirming the Convention,
and gave the Explanation — That General
Kleber after his, B.'s, return to France
was most desirous to evacuate Egypt, on
any terms, as nothing more seemed likely
to be done. To effect this, he wrote to
the Directory, and represented his Army
to be in a wretched state ; that it was only
twelve thousand strong, and that he had
not the means of making a defence. Now
the fact was he had twenty-two thousand
* According to Las Cases, the official returns of the whole
of the loss of the Army was —
Killed in Battle . 3^14
Dead of Wounds .
„ by Accidents
„ diiFcrent Illnesses
Pestilential Fever .
854
290
2468
1689
8915
This was up to 2 Mths. after B.'s return to France.
23
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
in good condition. This letter of Kleber*s
was intercepted and deceived the British
Government. In the meantime Sir Sydney,
who knew the true State of the French
Army was anxious to conclude this Con-
vention. Kleber was equally so, knowing
that Sir Sydney having styled himself
Commander-in-Chief & a Minister, when
he was neither, that the act became Illegal,
and that it was at the Option of the
English Government to confirm it or not,
(as they might judge best). Now as they
believed the Intercepted letter, they would
not confirm the Treaty. He was of Opinion
that had Kleber lived, and Commanded the
French Army instead of Menow,* Sir Ralph
Abercromby (who he thought a Brave, and
good Officer) would have had many more
obstacles opposed to him, and the English
would have had much more difficulty in
forcing the French from Egypt, because
Kleber was a more Able General than
Menow whose talent lay in diplomacy.
Kleber was a Brave and Clever Man.f
* Menow really did become a Mahometan & married one.
Kleber & Dessaix both Perished the same day & about the
same Hour (according to Las Cases) one at Cairo, by the hand
of an Assassin & the other, by a Cannon Ball at Marengo.
f Had Kleber lived, he would have had the Army down
from Cairo in nine days, and would have overwhelmed the
24
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
He said. If the French had kept
possession of Egypt, sooner or later, we
would have lost India for it could not have
been conquered by the Red Sea.* The
Commerce would have been drawn thither.
He would have made even the India Com-
pany trade with him. Merchants were of
the Country that gave them most profit.
Those of London had frequently supplied
him with Money. On His return from
Elba he had several propositions, One from
English. He would have done it in seven, He would have
been down on the Coast previous to the disembarkation. He
had done so before when Sydney Smith and the Turks landed.
Abercromby seeing such a force against him, would not have
attempted to Land, or If he had his army would have been
cut to pieces. If Klebcr had been there he would have had
18,000 Men, with 100 Pieces of Artillery against Abercromby
on the 21st, The French in the Acfion had only 4,500 Men.
The English will never believe this never the less it was really
the case.
* He had intended to make two Canals, one to the Nile at
Cairo, Sc another from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean. He
had had the Red Sea surveyed & found that the waters of it
were 30 feet higher than the Mediterranean at high water;
but only 24 at low water ; that his plan was to have prevented
any water coming into the canal from the Red Sea except at
low water, which would be 24 ft. and that this in the course
of a distance of 30 Leagues in its passage to the Mediterranean
would have been of no consequence. Besides he intended to
have had some sluices in the course of it. The Nile was
lower 7 feet when at its lowest than the Red Sea, but was
(I think) 14 feet higher than the Jca at Suez during its
inundation. The expence had been calculated to amount to
probably 18 Millions of Francs, and two Years Labour.
«5 ^
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
a very rich House. He had their proposal
with him, He was to repay them with
Government funds, but it was to have been
a secret how those funds were disposed of.
The Admiral, as on a former occasion,
observed that he hoped that one of these
days we should see all these things pub-
lished. B. Laughed. . . .
He had a Memoir which he could
shew the Admiral on the subject of opening
the Ancient Canal from Suez to Cairo. He
thought it practicable and it was his inten-
tion to have done it. He had ascertained
that the Nile at Cairo was nearly on a
level with the Red Sea. He proposed
effecting this by the waters of the Nile,
the Embankments of which are 4 feet
higher than the Red Sea.
, He said the English should keep
possession of Alexandria, instead of Malta,
to prevent any Power getting to India.
We had sent some troops to take Alexandria
but they were too few in number, and went
to fight at Rosetta, instead of remaining on
the defensive. It is only, continued he,
the weakness and ignorance of the Turks,
that prevents your India Trade from being
ruined, if any European Nation had posses-
sion of Egypt, it would be speedily effected,
26
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
and one day or another you will see Egypt
destroy the East India Company.
He thought it for the Interest of
England to keep the Grand Seignor in full
power, so added he, it must be of France.
The French, continued He, will never
consent to the dismemberment of Turkey.
At Tilsit in conversation with the Emperor
Alexander, who was always very desirous
of driving the Turks out of Europe he had
Bavard with him, and talked as If he
would consent. But as soon as he looked
at a Map, he perceived it was not for the
Interest of France to have Constantinople
in the hands of the Russians and Austrians.
When Moscow was Burnt, all the Greeks
were enraged, their Religion drew them
towards the Russians, and they would like
their Dominion better than any other
Power.
He spoke of General Paoli, whom he
described as a fine Character, that he was
strictly honourable to all parties, and
neither betrayed France nor England, that
he was always for his Country.
The Admiral asked if it was true, as
has been reported, that He was offered a
Commission in the English Army. He
Replied — Je vous le dirai. Paoli was a
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
particular friend of my family. He urged
me to enter into the English Service, as
He had the Means of there procuring me
a Commission, But I preferred the French,
because I spoke their Language, was of
their Religion, and understood their Man-
ners, and I thought the Beginning of a
Revolution was the time for a young Man.
Paoli was angry with me, but I always
respected him, and so did he me, for once
he said. That Young Man will be one of
the Antiques de Plutarch (It was a Com-
pliment that had gratified him more than
any that had since been paid him). He
continued. The Beginning of my rise was
at the Siege of Toulon, there were few
officers in the Artillery^ in which I was
then serving, who were Men of Science.
A Number of Soldiers had been made
Officers. It was known to the General
that I had been educated at L'Ecole Mili-
taire, and I was the sort of person he
wanted he gave me the Command. I was
successful, and gained reputation. I was
fortunately in Paris just in time for the
Revolution of the 13th Vendemiaire. I
* Artillery at Toulon. In Mr. Warden's Book he is made
to command only ten pieces, instead of the whole, consisting
of near 300 pieces.
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
then went to Italy, where I gained further
Reputation, and then to Egypt, and returned
to France at a Fortunate Moment. The
Adl. here remarked that he was also for-
tunate in escaping the British Cruisers.
He replied, Yes, I gave myself much credit
for that. I had a had sailing Ship and
for thirty days we lost Ground, and were
driven towards Alexandria, but I stood
towards Cyprus against the wind, knowing
it would change, and probably Blow strong.
It did so, and I arrived safe at Ajaccio in
Corsica, from whence I went to France.
It was I that obliged Admiral Bruix to
change His route and to make the Land
sixty Miles to the Westward of Alexandria,
by which Manoeuvre we escaped Lord
Nelson. He said. If Sir Sydney Smith
had kept a Cruiser off the Port, He could
not have got out, but he was then think-
ing of Diplomacy.
He spoke in praise of Sir G. Elliot
(Ld. Minto) But said it was an act of folly
wishing to join Corsica to our Dominions.
He thought Mr. North a Clever Man,
he was Secretary to Sir G. Elliot. He
said that when he landed from Elba, the
French troops shewed the most exact dis-
cipline, that they always came over to him
29
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
in bodies. He continued I will relate
some anecdotes to prove that I was liked
by the Soldiers, and that they were devoted
to me, and it was in consequence of that,
more than any premeditated insurrection,
and my also knowing the French Character,
that I succeeded so well in getting to Paris.
He said that in one instance a Corps, by
orders from the Officers, presented Arms
against him, that he rode up to them and
exclaimed. Who ordered you to present
Arms, are you going to fire at your
Emperor, who has so often led you to
victory? I then, continued He, called to
some whom I saw by a Bridge, and who
had served with me. And you old soldiers
do you wish to kill your Emperor? See
if we do, said they, and immediately put
their Ramrods into their Musquets to shew
that they were not loaded.
On appearing before Grenoble, The
General (Marchand) Commanding, and also
many of the Officers were loyal to the
King. They had closed the Gates, I
went up to them amidst the cries of Vive
L'Empereur, Yet there appeared no dis-
position on the part of the troops to open
them. I spoke to them, and asked the
use of these cries, If they did not open
30
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
the Gates. They said we are not com-
manded. I turned to General Bertrand,
and ordered him to call out the Emperor has
destitue The General Marchand, and it is
his orders that you open the Gates. The
troops were struck with this, & said Voilk
une autre chose. The General is dismissed.
Open the Gates. It is the Emperor's
Orders. The next day I reviewed some
of the Regiments, and reprimanded one
severely for not having their accoutrements
in better order. He related an anecdote of
Colonel Moncey, the son of the Marshal,
who commanded a Regiment, and whose
conduct he considered highly honourable.
He said that the Colonel wrote to him
to say that although he owed him much,
yet as he had sworn to be faithful to the
King, He was determined not to violate
his Oath, but to do his duty. He was
amongst the few that preserved his Regi-
ment together for a considerable time. B.
afterwards sent for him, and said. The
French Nation have chosen me again for
their Ruler, You have been faithful to the
King, but you see there is no longer any-
thing to be done for his cause, you had
better serve me, I continue you in the
Command of your Regiment.
3«
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Speaking of Marshal Soult ; He said,
I know he was faithful to the King, yet
all his acts had so much the appearance
of being in my favour, that it was only
myself could know that they were not done
with that Intention. B. then mentioned
that several Corps, the most attached to
him, were placed in the South of France,
and there were no troops on which the
Bourbons could rely. The Adml. asked Why
this was done, if Soult was faithful ? He
replied, because he looked on me as dead
to France, and did not calculate on my
return. He thought that had he pursued
the plan, that was supposed, that of landing
in Italy, Soult would have done his duty.
The Admiral spoke of Marshal Ney.
He answered, C'est une autre chose, Ney
was a hero in the field, but not clever in
other Respects, and by his manner clearly
showed that he had committed himself
towards the Bourbons, His conduct on the
whole was Bad.*
He now spoke of the Bourbons, That
the King was a well-disposed man, but
that there was a Party that he could not
* Ney did not make use of haughty language in 1814,
at Fontainblcau, as Reported. He was always submissive in
his presence.
3a
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
keep in order, who would Bouleverse
France. The Party had become Popular
altho* not numerous. The Prefets had been
allowed just at the return of the Bourbons,
to fill up the numbers of the Electors, they
thought it would please, if the most violent
Royalists were put in, & now they wish
that the Moderates had been placed in their
stead, but it is too late, even the Govern-
ment cannot control them. The allies
cannot be pleased to see them the majority.
He said, He thought the Duke of
Orleans the Only one of the Bourbons,
that could settle France. He had fought
for the Revolution, had never drawn his
sword against Frenchmen, & he had made
himself popular by wearing the Legion
of Honour, and never that Order of St.
Esprit on great occasions. This, he
observed, was apparently a trifle, but
apparent trifles are great things at times
in France : Reason nothing.
He said that the Comte D'Artois,
when he arrived at Lyons with Macdonald,
had acted very Impolitic. He appeared
before the Army wearing the Order of
St. Esprit, which all those that have been
born since the Revolution Hate, because
by the Institution they never can obtain
3i
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
it, however great their merit may be, as
it requires four generations of Nobility of
Blood. He had also twelve Officers on
his Staff, not one of whom had fought
with, but against them, not one bore the
Legion of Honour. This was remarked
to Macdonald who said it should be
changed.
The Admiral asked. If he thought it
prudent of the Bourbons to continue the
Legion of Honour. He replied. He
thought Not. That had he been in Louis*
situation, he would have ecrasee it immedi-
ately, for, continued he, it will always call
me to remembrance, but as they have con-
tinued it they should not vilify me, they
should praise me for what I did, that
brought Glory to France. I was always
the first to speak of the great deeds of
Henry the Fourth. I will tell you what
will happen, when I am personally out of
the Question, in Thirty Years. The Govern-
ment will be obliged to yield to public
opinion, and raise a Monument to me for
the glory of the Nation. It is what your
Regent has done in Italy to the descendant
of a Stuart. The Adml. replied. Yes, but
it was to the last of that family.
He spoke of the Americans, He smiled
J4
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
at the Idea of their wishing to have the
Island of Lainpedosa from the Neapolitans,
in part payment of a debt, and said. What
fools there are in the World, that People
who may do as they please on half the
Globe, should wish to have a little bad
Island, that will embroil them constantly
with the European Princes, and which
with their small Navy they would lose in
the first war. These People's Heads are
turned, said he, by their accidental success,
which they attribute to their superior power
and knowledge.
He spoke of the Harbour of Lampe-
dosa. The Adl. said. You wished us to
have it instead of Malta. He laughed, and
said. At the Peace of Amiens, Yes ! ! Lord
Nelson thought it a good Harbour.
He thought England would be much
better without Canada. He said, . It kept
her in a prepared state for War, at a great
Expense, and kept up constant irritation,
but it is, said He, A point of honour not
to give it up.
The Adml. mentioned that he thought
it Impolitic of Louis making the Infant
children of Marshals Lasnes and Bessieres,
Peers, and that he concluded the Motive
was, that they would have very large for-
35
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
tunes, and that it was desirable such people
should be Peers. B. replied that the
probable reason was that at the time
Ministers thought the King had the inten-
tion of restoring the Property of the
Emigrants, and that by doing this. The
King considered it would furnish an addi-
tional Proof that such was not in his
thoughts, for it would be said. He has
made these two Infants Peers, who cannot
be of any use to him until they are of age,
and their properties are those of Emigrants.
In speaking of England, he added, I
have always admired the English Character,
for they have one, all Islanders have, even
the Inhabitants of St. Helena are angry if
you find fault with their Isle. In this the
Admiral agreed.
The Admiral asked him, how he became
acquainted with the state of France, when he
was in Egypt. He replied that the Gazettes
which had been landed by the English
Cruisers first gave him that Information.
* He asked, and seemed anxious to
* The Ship's Name was ' The Vcngeur,' about 200 of her
Men were saved by the Boats of the English. This Report
however was spread, & the Republic provided for his (Capt.)
family. He therefore thought it best not to undeceive them,
but to remain in England, as in those times had he returned, he
might in the end have been put to Death.
36
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
know. If it was true, that on the ist of
June (Ld. Howe's action) a French 74
went down, with her colours flying, refus-
ing assistance. Admiral told him not, that
her Captain behaved nobly, but struck, on
finding her in a sinking state, that many
were saved, and that her Captain lived in
England several years afterwards. He said
he had heard so too.
The Admiral particularly remarked
this day that in his description of various
events he made use of the Strongest Expres-
sions, and that he was not very nice in
the terms he used. He generally keeps
his cocked hat in his hand but this day
when he was energetic, he often laid it
down, and took it up again. He this
day, and has before said, on the Admiral
observing that particular plans of his had
not succeeded, J'etais trompee.
January 31st, 18 17. — I accompanied the
Admiral and Lady M. to Longwood after
visiting Madame Bertrand, B. sent to say he
was ready, and we all went to the Billiard
Room when the Admiral and Lady M. were
shewn into the next apartment, as before with
Montholon and Gourgaud. They remained
nearly three hours with him, when they
retired. He observed me in the Billiard
37
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Room, and came forward and said Comment
se va Le Capitaine M. comment va votre
Newcastle ? (He) asked me if there was
not a great deal of surf on the Beach, and
what was the Reason. If it was not pro-
duced by Northly Winds, made some
general remarks to the Admiral about the
Weather when we all retired.
On seeing Lady M. he began by
asking If she had enjoyed good health
since he had last seen her, She had made
a long voyage, and he thought she must
now have learnt enough to qualify her for
a Midshipman. He then asked them to
sit down. He had heard that Lady M.
had dined at Sandy Bay at Mr. Dovetons
(which is the prettiest place on the Island).
He asked Ldy. M. if she thought this
Island like Scotland? She replied she
thought some parts were. He then began
a long discussion on the Politics of Europe.
He asked the Admiral If it was true
that he was going home. The Admiral
replied that he did not know it Officially,
but thought it probable, and observed that
he only came out on the promise that he
should not stay long, that he was desirous
of remaining some time at home, now that
we had Peace. B. said lo years was the
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
utmost we could be at Peace. He had
seen by the Newspapers lately arrived, that
great discontents existed in England, He
believed there were in every part of Europe,
Europe was like a smothered volcano.
He thought it impossible we could
go on with such a great expense as we
were now at. He could not see the end
of it. We might in part pay the National
debt by saving the Revenues of the Clergy,
(on observing Lady M. shake her head at
this) He laughed, and asked if she was a
Puritan? She answered she was Church
of England, the Admiral, Presbyterian.
Then said he to Lady M., Do you think
his soul will be damned? She answered
such were not our tenets, & answered several
Questions he put to her, as to the Orna-
ments in our Churches, whether we had
flowers, Candlesticks and incense, The
latter he liked it, it made the church smell
sweet.
He asked the Admiral several Ques-
tions about the Scottish Church, who
explained that the two Churches differed
only in Civil forms. B. approved of the
manner of paying the Clergy in Scotland,
instead of Tithes.
He asked the Admiral and Lady M.,
39
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
If they did not often see the French
Commissioner Montchenu. He said Mont-
chenu would lose much when they went
away. He was told the Baroness Sturmer
was pretty. Lady M. replied, she thought
her not so much so as she had been, she
had lately grown so fat. Then, Quoth he,
she will have no Children.
Lady M. remarked that If he had
remained on the Throne of France He
never would have liked the English. Pardon
me. Said He, On the Contrary I did not
dislike the English, I had always the
highest opinion of the English Character,*
and as a Proof I trusted to it, and was
duped, other wise I should not have been
here. If I had not preferred coming to
you, I could have gone to my Father-in-
law, and have had one of his Palaces to
live in.
He said that he believed in England,
we had as many, if not more Honourable
Men as any other Country, but that we
had also a great many very bad, we were
in the extremes.
* He thought that there was more Nationality, more public
Spirit and attachment in England than in France, but to form
a correct judgment of the two Nations, it would be necessary
to ace them both immediately subsequent to a Revolution.
40-
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
He spoke highly of Lord Cornwallis,
he thought him a man of great honor. He
said it was easy to know when a Govern-
ment wished for Peace by Observing the
Character of the Person sent to treat for it.
* He said that when the Treaty of
Amiens was ready, it was late in the
Evening, that it was necessary for the
Plenipotentiaries to go to the Hotel de Ville
to sign it (that being a neutral place) that
They were tired, and mutually agreed to
defer going until the next morning, but
to consider it signed. In the Night a
Courier arrived from London with dis-
patches that might have occasioned further
discussion. Mr. Merry the Secretary urged
Lord C. very much to make some further
proposals, but that Lord Cornwallis Replied,
My word is pledged and I will sign the
Treaty as it is. It depends on my Govern-
ment afterwards to ratify it or not as they
please.
He spoke also of Lord Whitworth, and
the Duchess of Dorset, The latter he had
understood was not much esteemed in
England. When they were at Paris, he
was in the habit of giving dinners of 50
* He proposed to destroy Algiers, but our Ministers would
not consent to a united Expedition.
41 D
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Covers, many English were at the Parties,
and used to be very angry because she
never came in time. This is a thing the
French were very particular about.
Lord Whitworth was a man of sang
froid, but he mistated a conversation he
had with him. The Adl. asked if it was
the one that he had at his Levee. He
said. No, that it was a private one that
he had with him, for that everybody had
heard the other.
He did not like Lord Lauderdale. He
did not think him a Man of Talent, not
a Moral man.
He thought Mr. Fox a most honourable,
good Man, he had seen him with pleasure.
In his journey through France Mr. Fox
had been every where received well, in
many places with Fetes. He then dwelt
on what has been frequently stated, that
he thought the death of Mr, Fox a Mis-
fortune to Both Countries. That if he
had lived, he would have made Peace. He
said Lord Lauderdale's conduct had altered
immediately on the news of his death.
He then spoke of Mr. Drake, Jackson,
& Rumbold not in the most flattering
terms, he thought Mr. Jackson a Char-
latan.
4«
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
On speaking of the scarcity of Corn
in France, He said we had humbled the
vanity of the French, that they were a
vain nation, and would rather have their
vanity gratified than their hunger allayed.
On the subject of the Bourbons, he
said, It was Impossible to force a great
nation contrary to its Opinion, we were
trying to do so by supporting them.
He had put an end to the French
Revolution but the Allies were renewing
it by placing Louis on the Throne contrary
to the Opinion of the People.
He continued. The System I pursued
in Spain was contrary to the Opinion of
the Nation, and therefore I failed.* Fer-
dinand is right in his present system. The
Spaniards like their Priests, their Bigotry,
and their ancient usages. Ferdinand's Con-
fessor once more told me. Why do you
wish us to change. We like our present
Modes^ and so ought you, for we shall
never be a powerful Nation while they are
followed.
* Of the opposition that had been made to the continuation
of the Property Tax in England and of the Proceedings of the
Livery of London. He said it was a bad thing to force the
will of the People, that it had caused the failure of his War
in Spain.
43
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
* He would not admit as ^^ the Adl.
advanced, that there was anyHparty in
France, in favour of Louis. On the con-
trary he affirmed that they would have
dethroned Louis, tho' he had never left
Elba. The Bourbons, said he, never can
be secure till they restore the French Glory,
at Present the Nation feel themselves
humbled, and their King is the cause.
He came to France on the Shoulders of
Wellington, treading over the dead bodies
of Frenchmen.
He thought it Impolitic taking away
the Pictures &c. from the Louvre, It was
making the King unpopular.
Had he, B., been allowed to remain
in France, it might have been politic to
have humbled him, and the French
Nation as much as possible, but that
measure under Louis could only serve to
* He said, Suppose a King was forced on you in England
by foreign bayonets. How would you like it ? Louis only
reigns under the Duke of Wellington, There is no leader of
the French Nation, time will show whether there is a Partv
in his Favour. '.vH '■^*''-'
He thought it not Politic levying contributions in France,
that the Nation hated it, that it would have been much better
to have taken territory at once. That at first, it would have
created a strong sensation, which would have died away, but
that now the Indignation of the People was kept up by the
other measure.
44
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
inflame the minds of the People more
against him.
He spoke of the Policy of the Peace
we had made. He thought we had not
profited sufficiently by it.
He said, England has not done herself
Justice at the Peace. The King of the
Netherlands owes His Country to you, so
does Spain, and Portugal, and as these
Countries could not indemnify you with
money, you ought to have made them grant
you an exclusive Charter to trade with
them, and their Colonies, for five or even
ten years, to repay you for the sums you
have expended on their account, This would
have been just. The other Allied Powers
could not have dissented.
Of the Abilities of the Duke of Welling-
ton, he remarked, that it would one day
be of bad consequence to the English
Nation, who would expect more from
their Army than they had capacity for,
when not guided by superior knowledge.
He said that If the War with England
had lasted two or three years longer, that
France would not have had any further
occasion for Colonies, as he had already
caused to be made in France (by the great
encouragement he gave) Sugar from the
45
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Beet Root.* On the Adl. remarking that
the Specimens he had seen were not good.
He replied that until very lately, the
Chymists had only discovered the Method
of Chrystallizing it which made it equal to
the Sugar from the Cane. He said that
they would have done in lieu of Coffee,
with Leaves of Herbs as Tea, & would
have been contented with it, and that
indeed he would have been able to have
grown Coffee in some parts of France;
that from Grain an inferior kind of Coffee
might have been Prepared.
He said that his Chymists had also
discovered how to make Indigo, that it
had been known long since, but that they
did not understand extracting some in-
gredients that spoiled it, but now they
did. He had established a Manufactory,
which was in a Flourishing State. He
had also established an Academy for 50
youths to study Chymistry, He believed
'*' He had succeeded in getting Sugar for 1 3 sous the Pound,
and when the Process of tnaicing it had been a little more
Matured, Sugar would have been made in France almost as
cheap as it could have been Imported from the West Indies.
N.B. — All the Licenses which had been granted for the
Importation of Colonial Produce into Europe during the war
had been signed by himself. He regulated everything respect-
ing this, personally.
46
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
we had a few as good Chymists in England
as in France, but that in France the science
was now general, that it might be con-
sidered that Chymistry had made Revolution
in Commerce, like that which the discovery
of the Passage to the Cape of Good Hope
had done.
March 7th, 18 17. — The Admiral went
alone to Longwood, and conversed about
half an hour on various subjects. B. asked
if the Commissioners had received letters
by the Store Ship? The Adl. replied in
the Affirmative. Will they then see me
as Individuals? I shall be glad to see them,
but not as Commissioners, because that
would be acknowledging myself a prisoner
to their Masters. The Adl. remarked that
he did not know they had ever requested
to see him as Individuals. He replied that
the Russian had no objection. He could
see that by the manner of wording the
letter that was sent to him.
He then entered into a discussion on
the late Restrictions, to which the Admiral
observed that the Parts he complained of
had been changed, and that he was certain
the Governor had every disposition to
render his Situation as agreeable as the In-
structions from Government would admit.
47
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Instructions, said he, from Ministers are
like a sword that cuts two ways, and you
may use it as you please. He would not
allow that the desire of the Governor was
such as the Adl. stated. He said that
previous to the sailing of the Orontes, He
was preparing a Paper to send to the Prince
Regent, but stopped on account of a pro-
position made thro' Dr. O'Meara that the
Admiral should mediate an arrangement
to obviate what was found so disagreeable
in their situation. That he had agreed
to this. But, said He, this he has not done.
The Admiral told him that he certainly
had not been spoken to on the subject,
but that he concluded that the reason was,
that the G. was desirous to know the
sentiments of Ministry on the subjects that
had caused the restrictions, before he took
further steps in the Affair.
B. said Sir H. does not know my
Character, I am a Man that can live Tran*
quilly provided that I am treated with
some regard, I think I have a claim to
that. He said the G. has never seen me
except when I was irritated and spoke
Betises.
The Adl. said that he did hope that
ere long they would be on better terms,
48
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
and remarked that the G. was a Man of
considerable attainments, and well acquainted
with the History of the late eventful
Period, & that he felt confident that Both
would find much satisfaction in a free
intercourse. B. replied, It is for Sir H. to
bring it about. He can do much for me, I
cannot do anything for him. The Adl.
again pointed out that these misunder-
standings had certainly arisen from People
about him.
Captains Stanfell and Festing accom-
panied the Admiral and Lady Malcolm
this day (March 25th, 18 17) to Longwood.
After stopping a short time with Made.
Bertrand, a servant came to the Admiral
and they all walked on to the House.
General Bertrand was there, and ushered
them into the Billiard room where B. was.
He advanced to meet Lady M. and after
asking if she always continued to enjoy
good health, He spoke to the Admiral,
who replied to His Compliments, and then
introduced Captain Stanfell. B. remarked
he had never seen him before, asked If he
was Married & had Children, the name of
his Ship, His destination, and on hearing
that he had just arrived from the Cape
of Good Hope, He asked If Captain Stanfell
49
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
had seen the Comte Las Cases, and whether
He was not at liberty. Captain S. replied
that he was living at Newlands, (the seat
of the Governor Ld. C. Somerset) that
he had called upon him, but had not seen
him, that he had seen his son.
The Admiral observed that the Health
of young Las Cases was considerably im-
proved from the Prescription of a wonderful
young Physician, describing Dr. Barry. B.
observed that a similar Medical Phenomenon
had appeared in France, named Bichat, that
he died at the early age of twenty-eight,
which was a great misfortune, for had he
lived he was expected to have made great
additions to medical knowledge.
The' Captain Festing's former interview
had been so short, B. appeared to recollect
him. He asked him also. If he was
married, and on his answering No, He
said in English, then you are Boy. Bertrand
observed that was not the right word, that
he meant Bachelor. On which B. repeated,
Bashler,
He asked various Questions about Scot-
land, he said it was a poorer country than
England. The Admiral allowed that, and
added that it had been much enriched by
the numbers of Scotchmen who had made
50
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
fortunes in the Colonies, & returned and
settled in their native place. Yes, said he»
Mountaineers always love their country,
and turning to Lady M. asked If she was
a Mountaineer.
He could not understand about Scotch
Peers being made English Peers. The
Adl. explained it to him, and that since
the Union there had been no Scotch Peers
created, nor in fact English Peers, that
they were now British Peers.
He then asked Lady M., If her Uncle
Lord Keith was not a Scotch Peer, and
if Lord Melville was not also ? He knew
his name was Dundas, he asked the Adl.
if Lady M. was of an ancient family who
replied No, they sprung from the Law.
He asked which were the great families
in Scotland, Whether the Douglas was not
one of the greatest? The Adl. replied Yes,
and named the Campbells and some others.
He seemed anxious to understand the differ-
ent degrees of English Nobility, and asked
If they did not usually take their titles
from their Estates.? He spoke of the titles
of Wellington and Nelson and asked who
Nelson's title had gone to.?
He asked Lady M. if she had been at
the Play lately performed in the Valley
5«
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
(The Rivals) he knew it was a play of
Sheridan's, with whose talents he seemed
to be acquainted.
He spoke of the difficulty of a person
not conversant with a Language reading
Poetry. He said he could read English
Newspapers sufficiently to be amused by
them, but he should never speak the
Language for he could not pronounce it,
nor could he read Poetry, He had tried
Milton, but could not make it out. Did
we not consider him our greatest Poet?
He was an Infernal Poet. The Adl. said.
And a Celestial one too, for he had written
of Heaven as well as of Hell. He then
asked if Milton was not one of the Regicides
who voted for the death of Charles the i st ?
The Adl. said, he had not voted for the
King's death but after it had taken place
he wrote in defence of it, and Cromwell
in consequence employed him as Secretary.
He appeared curious to ascertain whether
or not he had been a Regicide, and twice
asked the Admiral, if he was certain he
was not, advancing close to him.
He asked if the English Language like
the French, was not much altered since the
days of Shakespeare, and If his plays had
not been modernised that they might now
52
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
be understood. If Dryden and Addison had
not made a change in the English Language.
He asked if we had not now a Poet
named Byron. The Adl. answered Lord
Byron's poetry was much admired, and that
we had several others. Yes, said he in
Scotland, but the climate is too damp for
Poetry. Italian Poetry he said was very
fine, but their prose bad ; that it was very
difficult for a Person not well acquainted
with the Language to read Italian poetry,
for they cut their words.
He asked when the Conqueror was
expected, & what was the class of ship,
if larger than the Northumberland, which
he observed was from a French Model.
The Adl. replied that she was built after
the Impetueux which had been the Amerique.
B. then asked. If the Tonnant was the
ship of that name taken at the Nile, and
If she had suffered much in that action.
The Adl. referred to Captain Testing who
had seen her after the action and then told
him she had suffered very considerably.
He asked what name we had given the
Guillaume Tell. The Adl. answered the
Malta, and that Le Franklin was now called
the Canopus. B. said they were both of
the same class and fine Ships.
53
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
He enquired what sort of Transports
we used to carry Cavalry. The Admiral
answered small ones that took between 30
and 40 Horses, seldom so many as 50.
He then asked (and it seemed by his
manner, not to be a chance Question, but
one that he had recollected to ask) How
many Regiments had come from America to
Ostend. The Admiral said six or seven, but
that they were not all in the Battle of Water-
loo, some were at Ghent and some at Brussels.
B. turned to Lady M., and said you
play at Chess. She answered. Very little,
but on the Admiral saying she did. He
ordered the Chess Table, which was placed
in the drawing room. Hitherto they had
remained in the Billiard Room, in which,
besides Bonaparte and General Bertrand,
there were the Count & Countess de
Montholon & General Gourgaud ; Bertrand
formed a part of the circle with them, and
sometimes put in a word, but Generals Mon-
tholon & Gourgaud stood behind on each
side of the Billiard Table, and never Articu-
lated except when Bonaparte addressed them.*
* Madame de Montholon came round the Table near
Lady M. & when B. who moved about, as he talked, turned
his back, she whispered to Lady M. If she was tired, she
might sit down. She however preferred standing, the better
to hear what he said.
54
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
When the Chess table was ready, B.
walked into the drawing Room, Lady M.
following. He placed himself on a sofa
and pointing to a chair opposite to him
said, Allons Madame, (Madame de Mon-
tholon sat on a Chair near them). The
Gentlemen stood round the table looking
on. B. took the White Men, Lady M.
the Red. He desired Lady M. to take
the move. He played very Quick, talking
to those around, and sometimes made bad,
and even false moves, of which both
General Bertrand and General de Mon-
tholon told him. They also noticed a
bad move she made, which he bid her
take back. Lady M. won the Game, at
which he laughed and said, they must
try another Game. He again desired Lady
M. to take the first move. He soon
exposed his Queen, and as she could
change with advantage she did so. He
noticed that she seemed fond of Castling,
and on her moving a piece which defeated
his attack, he said. Very well defended.
He won, and immediately rose saying. The
other Room is cooler, and walked back. He
observed to the Admiral that he did not
reckon himself a good Chess Player, that he
merely played to amuse himself sometimes.
55
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
In general the Rooms at Longwood
are darkened with Green Blinds or Curtains,
on returning to the Billiard Room, he
ordered the Blinds to be drawn up, the Sun
was shining bright, and the view of the
Green, and the trees at the back of the
House appeared rather less sombre than
usual. B. took out a small glass like an
Opera one from his waistcoat Pocket, and
looked towards the Sea, and then towards
the entrance of his house. He observed the
Griffin moving to Windward of the Island,
He asked the Admiral, If it was his Cruiser.
He then spoke of the Number of India
Ships, and Passengers that came here, of
the usual length of the voyage the China
Ships made, their size and how many Men
they had.
On speaking of the Harbours in France,
the Admiral observed that he had been
much in Duarnenez Bay. B. laughed, and
said He had ordered Mortars that would
throw shells an immense distance, to be
placed on the heights at the entrance of
Duarnenez Bay, as he had done to keep
Pellew out of Hieres Bay.
He then asked what o'clock it was &
on hearing it was five. He continued to
talk to the Admiral of different English
56
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
diplomatick Characters, with Praise again
of Lord Cornwallis (whom he termed a
Brave Homme). He also spoke with appro-
bation of Lords St. Helens, Malmesbury,
and Whitworth, but not your Drakes,
Rumbolds, Mackenzies, and Jacksons, such
Gentlemen as these were not to be de-
pended on.
B. asked. If Scotchmen did not drink
very hard, and turning to Lady M. said
they never got up from table. Both the
Admiral and Lady M. said that had formerly
been too much the case, but that they
were now much improved in that respect,
and hard drinking was happily no longer
the fashion in Scotland. B. then said it
had been the fashion when the P. Regent
was young, he seldom got up from the table,
he often sat till he fell under it, (pointing
down below the Billiard Table). Was it
not so .? The Admiral answered that these
stories were always much exaggerated. B.
Laughed, and said it was true. He touched
the sleeve of Lady M.'s Pelisse and asked
If it was English silk. She told him it
was Chinese, she had got it at St. Helena.
But how did you get it made, said he?
Pointing to the trimming, there are no
Marchands des modes here. She Replied,
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
there was one, and Made, de Montholon
named her (Mrs. Beaumont). He asked
if the silks made in England were as good
as those made in France. Lady M. replied.
Not quite. He said he believed the Lyons
silks were the finest in the world. Soon
after this, he wished all the Party good
morning.
He observed to the Admiral that his
war with Russia was undertaken because
Alexander had not fulfilled one of the
Treaties of Tilsit, and that he wished also
to establish solidly the kingdom of Poland,
as a barrier against the Russians, for that
sooner or later, they would overrun Europe.
The Adl. asked. Why he did not stop in
Poland? He replied, because I could have
dictated from Moscow the terms of Peace,
but the Russians burnt Moscow & ruined
me. The Adl. then asked why he did
not go to Petersburgh instead of Moscow.
He answered because he could have had
no Magazines in that direction to subsist
his Army, that round Moscow it was a
fine Country, with abundance of grain.
In a conversation before this, B. observed
that it was true as stated in the News-
papers, that the Belgians were sorry that
the English had gained the Battle of
Si
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Waterloo, they considered themselves French-
men, and were such. The greatest part of
the Nation liked him, and wished for his
success. The stories that our Ministers
took such pains to circulate respecting the
Nations united to France hating him, and
detesting his tyranny were all false. The
Belgians, Italians, Piedmontese, and others
were examples of this. The English that
have travelled, said he, will confirm this.
Millions now weep for me. The Pied-
montese preferred being a province of
France, to being an independent Kingdom
under that King of Sardinia.
He spoke also of Lord Grenville, whom
he considered at present, as the greatest
Statesman in England.
May 3rd, 1 8 17. — The Admiral went to
Longwood alone. B. spoke of the Nobility
of England, that they were only the chiefs
of the Populace, but that in France the
Old Nobility were the Masters of the
Populace, and that they made very bad
Masters. They were in general. Vain Ignor-
ant People. For example, said he, Gourgaud
had a few minutes conversation with Mont-
chenu at the Races the other day, and
he began to tell him of what an Ancient,
and noble family he was descended from.
59
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
He said Our Expedition to Copenhagen
was not a measure of great policy, It would
have been if we had kept possession of it,
but He did not want Ships, he had more
at Antwerp than he could Man, and much
better ones than the Danish, it was Men
he wanted.
He spoke of our taking the Spanish
Frigates before the War, and said the sum
of Money we got was of very great National
Importance. That the measure hastened
the war, which he had been using his
endeavours to produce between England
and Spain. That the loss of the Money
was of no consequence to him; He never
got any Specie from Spain, but he got Bills
on Vera Cruz, which he sent to London,
where they were negociated, and by that
Channel he got money for them. That
the Money for them found its way to
Jamaica, and then to England, so that the
three Nations had all a little to do with
it, and all got a little. He spoke of my
Illness, and said I should get over it, If
there was nothing the matter with my
lungs.
He asked. If we were going to interfere
with the Disturbance in Spanish America.
He said we should favour underhand the
60
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Separation of the Mother Country. That
no matter how kind, or how well England
treated Spain, or how ill France behaved
to her. That as long as Spain retained her
Colonies, she would be jealous of England,
from the fear that her Commerce would
be destroyed by our Navy. She would
be jealous of England, and the friend of
France, but once separate her from her
Colonies, she would become a warlike
Nation on the back of France, and league
with England against France.
June 19th, 1 8 17. — The Admiral and
Lady M. went up to Longwood accompanied
by Captains Jones & Wright, after receiving
them in the usual way, He conversed a
short time on indifferent subjects, and went
into the next Room, taking the Admiral
and Lady M. with him.
He took notice of Lady M.'s gown,
and asked her, If it was of Scotch Manu-
facture. She replied in the Affirmative.
He said, that is right, we should all wear
the Manufactures of our own Countries.
He observed that by the Newspapers
brought out by the Store Ships, he had
seen Lord Bathurst's Speech, (in reply to
Lord Holland's) that there were several
falsehoods in it, and that he did not think
61
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
he could be in possession of the Governor's
Restrictions with his Notes upon them,
that if Ld. B. was, the Falsehoods were
wilful. The Admiral replied he was sure
he had. He said he was preparing an
answer to this Speech, as it appeared in
the Morning Chronicle, the first part of
which he had finished, and offered to read
it to the Admiral, who immediately objected
to this, and said he was not authorized to
enquire into any of his Complaints, and
observed he ought not to believe all the
Papers said, that they made many mistakes
in reporting Speeches, and that some stated
Lord B.'s Speech differently.
B. said he was aware of these mistakes,
but that they generally agreed in sub-
stance.
He shewed Lady M. a Bust of the
King of Rome lately brought to him. Lady
M. admired the fine Curly hair on it, and
said the Bust was like him. B. said it was
invaluable to him, that the lower part of
the face resembled him, and the upper, the
Empress, that an Artist in Leghorn had
made two, one for the Empress, and another
for him. He said that he had heard that Sir
T. R had told the Captain of the Ship,
that brought it out, that he ought to have
62
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
thrown it overboard, and said to Lady M.
was not this barbarous ?
Lady M. replied that it was so barbarous,
that she could not conceive Sir T. capable
of having said so. The Admiral said the
same. B. said, I know he did say so, for
he mentioned it in the presence of several
Officers. He said that he was preparing
a letter on the subject, but the Captain
of the Ship came up to Longwood and
told Bertrand that Sir T. R had never
said so.
He complained of the declining state
of his health, and on the Admiral remarking
that he was looking well. Bah ! said he,
my bodily health is good, I have a strong
Constitution but my mental powers are
failing fast.*
He shewed Lady M. a Cup and Saucer f
(One of a set made at Sevres, and presented
to him on the day of his Marriage with
Maria Louisa) and said, it was a gift for
her, and after she had admired it, and thanked
him for it. He smiled, and said that he
would not give the Admiral any present,
'* He has said he thought they would not Ust z years.
I There is a Landscape painted on the Cup representing
a view of Cleopatra's Needle, beautifully ezecut»l on the
Saucer is the head of a Mameluke.
63
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
that he would not listen to reason, that he
was too much of an Englishman to believe
that the G. or that any of his Countrymen
could do wrong; that Ladies had more
compassion for People in misfortune than
Men. Lady M. answered, for People who
had been distinguished.
He then exclaimed, I have worn the
Imperial Crown of France, The Iron Crown
of Italy, But the English have done more
for me than them. They have given me a
more glorious one, that which was worn
by the Saviour of the World, A Crown
of Thorns. Every Insult and oppression
offered to me, by the English adds to my
Fame, & I want nothing more to complete
my renown, but to bear my Misfortunes
with firmness.
He spoke of Italy. He said that Italy
was longing for a Constitution, and so were
Many of the German States, that the
Emperor of Austria was afraid to crown
himself King of Italy, that when he tra-
velled through the Country He mistook the
Applause he met with, that it was intended
for his daughter, B's Wife, who was tra-
velling with him.
He spoke of Prince Leopold, and the
Princess Charlotte, that once the Prince was
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
going to be his Aide-de-Camp, that he
was a fine Young Man with an Excellent
Character.
He remarked upon reading Mr. Warden's
Book, that Mr. W. was a man of great
vanity, and that it displayed much Egotism,
and self consequence. That it was full of
Misrepresentations, and that it made him
say a thousand betises, that never came out
or his Mouth, and speak long Orations that
he never heard before.
Mr. Irving, The Adl.*s Secretary, went
up to Longwood this afternoon (2nd July,
1 8 17), Dr. O'Meara told B. that he was
there, on which he desired him to shew Mr.
Irving in. He was in the Billiard Room
with Bertrand, looking at some books. He
first asked him how he did, and how the
Admiral & Lady Malcolm were, then point-
ing to the Books on the billiard table, and
naming Robertson's Charles the 5th, Leigh's
narrative of a Journey in Egypt above the
Cataracts, and a Translation of Lopez de
Vega, by Lord Holland, He desired him to
look at them, and said that he had just
received them by the Conqueror, from the
Duke of Bedford and Lord Holland, and
that If Mr. Irving saw them he was desirous
they should be informed he was very much
65
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
obliged to them for the Books, and also to
mention that he had seen him (B.) reading
them. He said that he supposed it was the
Duchess of Bedford, who had sent those,
that were said to have come from the Duke,
that he had seen her several times in Paris,
when she was Lady Georgiana Gordon, and
that she was very fond of dancing.
He asked if the Admiral was coming
up before he left the Island and where
Admiral Plampin was.
At times he coughed a good deal, and
immediately after a severe fit of coughing.
He looked up in Mr. I's face, and said You
must tell the People in London, that this is
the Inquisition, and that I want nothing but
the Hat, to make me a Dominican Friar.
In saying this, he laughed. Mr. Irving said,
that he hoped his situation would in time
be Improved, upon which his Countenance
assumed rather an angry appearance, and he
said in a louder tone than he had spoken
before — Bah ! never while this Governor is
here. They should send the Admiral out
to govern the Island, He is much of an
Englishman.
He then asked Mr. Irving, If he was a
Scotchman, whether he was married, and
what he was going to do when he got
66
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
home. Mr. I. replied that he probably
would remain on shore, till another War,
and then perhaps go to sea again with
Admiral Hotham. Ah ! said he, I met you
with him in the Bellerophon, and Superb.
I see he is lately married. Where does he
reside? Mr. I. replied, London. He then
said, it is time for you to get married also,
I wish you a good voyage, and hope you
will find all your friends in England well.
Mr. Irving had not seen B. since the
20th of June 1816. At that time he had
observed an Alteration in B's appearance
for the worse, since he had seen him in
the Bellerophon & Superb, and at the
present period he certainly thought him
very considerably altered, also for the
worse, and his appearance altogether struck
Mr. Inking to be that of a Man declining
fast.
Mr. I told Dr. O'Meara what he thought
of him, who answered that from seeing him
every day, he was unable to perceive the
change so readily as a stranger did, but that
he knew he was materially altered since he
embarked in the Bellerophon, and he could
answer for his health being much impaired
latterly, which he attributed to his want of
exercise, and that he would not be per-
67
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
suaded to take any, under the restrictions at
present imposed on him.
Bonaparte remained after his first arrival
at St. Helena nearly two Months at the
Briars, A Cottage belonging to Mr. Bal-
combe, who has two daughters, Miss Jane &
Betsy. The stories Circulated about the latter
in the Newspapers are nearly all untrue.
Miss Betsy told me that B. occasionally
in the Evening came and played a Rubber
of Whist when the family was alone, that
once, she caught him revoking, on which
she told him that he must pay her a Napo-
leon. He replied No, No, you owe me a
Pagoda, and I will not give you a Napoleon
till you pay me the Pagoda. She said, that
in the first conversation she had with him.
He asked her the names of the Capitals of
the different Countries in Europe, when
he came to Russia, she said Petersburgh,
but said he. What was the Ancient .? She
replied Moscow. Who burnt it? I don't
know. Yes, you do, said he laughing, you
know it was me.
The two Miss B's. asked him one day
to let them look at some of his pretty things,
which he promised to do. He accordingly
a day or two afterwards sent for them at
dinner, and after making them eat some
68
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Bon Bons He shewed them the Miniatures
of all his family, and several prints, in which
[He] was represented, that two or three
times he pointed at his own figure in the
Print, and said. That's me. He then showed
them a very handsome Sword, presented to
him by the City of The Handle was
set round with Jewels, the Scabbard, tortoise-
shell, studded with Bees, which he remarked
were the emblems of Industry. Miss Betsy
asked permission to draw the Sword, which
he gave her, she did so and pointing it to
him said. Supposing I was to kill you. He
laughed, & said you would not be so cruel,
and called Miss Jane to come to his Assist-
ance, Who did so, and took the Sword from
Miss Betsey, since which when he sees them
he calls Miss Jane, His dear Miss Jane^ the
Preserver of his life.
On his leaving the Briars for Longwood,
He said he hoped they would often pay him
a visit, which they occasionally do. The
first time they went. He proposed some
game of Play on which. Miss B. fixed on
Blind Man's Buff. Miss B. was first Blinded,
and after some little time, caught hold of
somebody. B. said C'est Le Las Cases.
Miss Betsy uncovered her eyes, and beheld
that it was him B. she had caught. On
69
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
which she immediately insisted on his being
blindfolded, which he submitted to, & she
tied the Handkerchief round his eyes, after
which she gave him a Blow on the Back, he
soon became tired & pulled it off, and said
to her, Pourquoi vous me frappez ?
The last time they went to Longwood,
He went to Miss Betsy, and took her by
the ear, said she was a petite Espiegle, &
also said Estes vous sage et qui est votre
Amant.
The Party at Longwood speak of Talley-
rand, as a great villain, a man who has
betrayed all Parties on every side. Madame
Talleyrand is a woman of bad Character,
and had been banished from Court by
Buonaparte on that account. The follow-
ing anecdote current in Paris will display
her ignorance.
Talleyrand had asked Denon to dinner
one day. He said to Madame T . My
Dear, you must be very civil and polite to
him, you must pay him every attention, and
say something handsome to him about his
Travels, because He may be useful to us
with the Emperor.
Madame T. said she would, but being
extremely ignorant, and never having read
any other Travels probably than those of
70
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
Robinson Crusoe, she thought that Denon
could be nobody else than Robinson. She
therefore, before a large Company wishing
according to Her Husband's Request to be
very civil to him, and to pay every atten-
tion to Denon, began to ask him Divers
Questions about his Man Friday. Denon
astonished, did not know what to answer
for a long time, but at last discovered by
her Questions that she really imagined him
to be Robinson Crusoe. The astonishment
of him, and the company can scarcely be
conceived, nor the Laughter, which it after-
wards produced there, and through all Paris
where it was everywhere spoke of.
The Due D'Enghien. — In a conversa-
tion about Him, He said that he caused him
to be put to death, because the Duke wanted
to assassinate him (B.). That He had the
trial of the laws of His Country,and that they
condemned him. If he was condemned
unjustly it was not B's fault, but that it was
not so, that it was strictly according to the
existing laws. We should change our minds
about this in England. He also remarked
that our opinion in England about him
would be changed by the means of the
English travellers themselves.
Warden's Book. — Heard that he had
It
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
made the following observations upon it.
That whoever reads W's book will say that
He is a coxcomb, a great egotist and eat
up with vanity, that amongst other things
the Doctor had said in his work, that he
B. had never committed assassination or a
crime without having some object in view,
now he (B.) had never said this and he could
declare that he never had committed either
assassination or a crime with or without
having any object in view, neither did He
ever cause them to be committed by others,
that he had not a single crime on his
conscience to reproach himself with.
In a conversation it was remarked to
him that it was Believed in England that
B. aimed at universal Dominion and that
his intentions were to annex England to
France, that nothing less would have con-
tented his ambition. B. replied. Why that
as to annexing England to France upon
mature deliberation, that He considered it
Impossible, that to have united two nations
so dissimilar in ideas would have been as
difficult as to have brought together India
and Europe, that he had no intention of
that kind in his head. He then went on to
say that had he succeeded in his descent
upon England he would have made her a
CONVERSATIONS WITH NAPOLEON
republic and separated her from Ireland, that
he would have made Both Republics and
independent of each other and then left them
to themselves, having first sown seeds of re-
publicanism in their Morale^ and established
in each Island the republic form of govern-
ment, that as to Commercial Dominion He
had certainly aimed to render Himself and
France the most powerful in the World but
no further, that it was ever His Intention
to have made Italy an independent king-
dom, there were natural bounds for France
which he did not intend to pass. It was
His object to prevent England ever being
able to go to war with France without
assistance from some of the Continental
Powers without which indeed she ought
not to venture.
73
OBSERVATIONS OF NAPOLEON
Buonaparte told the Admiral : The first time
the Governor came to see me he told me he had
orders to impose further restrictions; the second
time, that he wished to replace Dr. O'Mcara by
Dr. Baxter, which I positively objected to; and
you were present at the third interview. Was
this the way to conciliate mc ?
Prince Swartzenbergh. — A man of no
abilities — an ass; not fit to command a regiment.
The Archduke Charles of Austria. — By
far the best Austrian General.
BtiJCHER. — A brave man, a good officer,
nobody better to command at a charge, but not
sufficient head for a general.
AuGEREAU. — A good gcncral, but a great
rascal and plunderer — a man of low family and
no education.
MoNTCHENu. — C'cst un homme d'honneur,
bon soldat, beaucoup dc loyaut^, mais pour dire
fi-anchement, ce nest pas un homme amusant.
At Wagram he had caused the bodies of the
OBSERVATIONS OF NAPOLEON
slain to he burnt, which he was desirous should
be the end of his (own) body.
Battle of Marengo. — The chief cause of
the loss of this battle by the Austrians was in
consequence of a piece of folly that they had been
guilty of, in sending about 20,000 men of the
elite of their army three or four days before to
attack (Lannes) with 15,000, who they hoped to
find crossing a river. They arrived too late, were
beaten there, and lost their best troops. Still, at
Marengo, they were superior in number, and the
French troops were raw recruits.
Ney. — Buonaparte thought him sincere in his
professions to the king at the time he made them,
and remained so till the i8th March, although
he had denied to him that he was sincere in his
promise to bring B. back in an iron cage. He
asserted that he thought himself obliged to make
use of hypocrisy to get rid of a hateful dynasty.
B. thought his conduct afterwards shameful to-
wards the king. After B.'s return from Elba,
Ney was sent to examine all the strong places on
the frontier. Ney, taking advantage of a moment
when he was alone with him, said, in a confused
manner, Has your Majesty heard it reported that
I promised to the king to bring you to Paris in
an iron cage ? B. replied. No, I ha\ e not. Besides,
I attach no importance to whatever may have been
75
OBSERVATIONS OF NAPOLEON
said, written or done. Je sais qu'elle est I'influence
des circonstances, and it is from other data that I
appreciate true fidelity and the sentiments of men.
Speaking about the English Revolution and
that of France, he remarked that there was a wide
difference between them — that the former was one
of religion, and operated powerfully in the hands
of fanatics, it was also confined to a few; but
that of France was one of the entire nation against
the reigning family.
76
INDEX
Abercromby, Sir Ralph, 24, 2511.
Acre, Siege of, 22
Addison, Joseph, 53
Ajaccio, 29
Alexander, Emperor of Russia, 37,
S8
Alexandria, 13, 13 n., 26, 29
Algerine Expedition, 18, 21, 22
Algiers, 41
Algiers, Dey of, 18
Allemand, Admiral, 7
Allied Powers, 45
America, Spanish, disturbance in, 60
Ameriquty 53
Amiens, Peace of, 35 ; Treaty of, 41
Arroffiuitf v
Artois, Comte d', 33
Augereau, 74
Austria, Emperor of, 64
Balcombe, Mr., 20, 68
Balcomhe, Betsy, 6S-70
Balcombe, Jane, 68-70
Balmain, Count, 6
Barr^, Captain, 13
Barry, Dr., 50
Bathurst, I^rd, 61, 62
Bai'ard, 27
Baxter, Dr., 74
Beaumont, Mrs., 58
Bedford, Duchess of, 66
Bedford, Duke of, 65, 66
Bedouin Arabs, I3n.
liellerophoti, 67
Bertrand, Count, 3, 8, 10, II n., 16,
19. 3>.49. 50. 54, 55. 63,65
Bertrand, Madame, 3, 16, 18, 19,
21, 37
Bessi^res, Marshal, 35
Bichat, Dr., 50
Bingham, Sir G., 20
BlUcher, 7, 74
Borodino, Battle of, 16
Bourbons, The, 8, 32, 33, 43, 44
♦ Briars. The,' 68, 69
Bruix, Admiral, 13, 29
Buonaparte, Napoleon, his early
career, 28, 29 ; his manner and
habits, 2, 3 ; dress and appear-
ance, 2, 3, 17 ; his speech, 3, 37 ;
ill-humour, ia-12; his estimation
of his own character, 48; hLs
health, 63, 66, 67 ; mental de-
cline, 63 ; disapproval of waltz-
ing, 19 ; as a chess-player, 55 ;
popularity with French soldiers,
30, 31 ; his jewelled sword, 69 ;
re receiving the Commissioners,
5, 6 ; refuses a commission in the
English army, 27, 28 ; marriage
with Maria Louisa, 63 ; return
from Elba, 20, 25, 29 ; re return
to Paris in an iron cage, 75 ; his
History, 5 ; arrival at St. Helena,
I ; his discontent with, 5 ; at
'The Briars,' 68, 69; at Long-
wood, 3, 69 ; his dislike of the
Governor, 15, 48, 66 ; insulte<l
and oppressed by the English
64 ; his comparison of English
and French fleets, 7 ; accounts
for his loss at Waterloo, 7, 8 ;
on tlie insecurity of the Bonrl)on
dynasty, 8, 44 •
Hii Opinimii : — of Louis
XVIIL, 32, 34; of the Duke
of Orleans, 33 ; of the Comte
d' Artois, 33 ; of Admiral Barre,
1 3 ; of General Paoli, 27 ; of Sir
G. Elliot, 29 ; of Marshal Nej-,
32, 75 ; of Marslial Soult, 32 ;
of Lord Cornwallis, 41 ; of Fox,
42 ; of the French nation, 8, 9,
43; of the Dutch nation an<l
navy, 15 ; of Prince Swartzcn-
bergh, 74 ; of the Archduke
CImrles, 74 ; of BlUcher, 74 ; of
Augereau, 74 ; of Montchenu,
74
77
INDEX
Buonaparte, Napoleon {co7ilinued).
His Conversaiions : —yi'iXh Sir
Pulteney Malcolm, 5-9; 12-17,
21-37. 39-47. 49-64 ; with Lady
Malcolm, 3, 4, 10, 38, 40, 49-59.
61-63 ? with Capt. Festing re
possession of Tristan d'Acunha,
II, 12; the condemnation of
Bertrand, 9 ; Egypt (his favourite
topic), 13, 22-27 5 slave trade,
14 ; expedition against Algiers,
17, 18, 21 ; Russian and German
soldiers, 15 ; the Cossacks, 15 ;
dismemberment of Turkey, 27 ;
national expense, 39 ; Church of
England, 39; Church of Scot-
land, 39 ; Treaty of Amiens, 41 ;
Louis XVIIL's unpopularity, 44,
45 ; the abilities of the Duke of
Wellington, 45 ; war with Eng-
land, 45 ; England's peace policy,
45 ; his war with Russia, 58 ; the
manufacture of beet sugar, 45,
46 ; and of indigo, 46 ; poetrj-,
52, S3; particular ships, 53:
drunkenness in Scotland, 57 ;
relative values of English and
French silks, 58 ; his criticism of
English policy with r^ard to
Copenhagen, Spain, and Spanish
America, 60, 61 ; his observations
on Warden's book, 72 ; his inten-
tions re the annexation of England,
72, 73 ; his comparison of the
English and French Revolutions,
76 ; his criticism of America's
acquisition of the island of Lam-
peaosa, 34, 35 ; of England's
possession of Canada, 35 ; his
admiration for the English
character, 36, 40
Byron, Lord, 53
Cairo f Ancient Canal from Suez to.
Memoir on, 26
Camels, ship floated on, 13
Campbell Family, 51
Canopus, 53
C'ape of Good Hope, 47, 49
Charles I,, death of, 52
Charles, Archduke of Austria, 74
Charlotte, Princess, 64
Chess, game of, 54, 55
Cleopatra's Needle, 63 n.
Cochrane, Captain, t, 2
Conqueror, 53, 65
Constantinople, 27
Copenhagen, Expedition to, 60
Corn, scarcity of, in France, 43
Cornioallis, v
Cornwallis, 41, 57
Corsica, 29
Cossacks, 15
Cromwell, Oliver, 52
Cuxhaven, Arsenal at, 15
Damietta, Citadel of, 23
Davy, Sir Humphry, 13
Denon, 70
Dcssaix, General, death of, 34 n.
Devil's Punch Bowl, 3
Dorset, Duchess of, 41
Douglas Family, 51
Dovetons, Mr., 38
Drake, Admiral, 42, 57
Drunkenness in Scotland, 57
Dryden, John, 53
Duarnenez Bay, 56
Dundas, Lord Melville, see Melville
East India Company, 25, 27
Egypt, 13. 22-27, 29
El Arish, Convention of, 23, 24
Elba, Napoleon's return from, 20,
25. 29, 75
Elliot, Sir G. (I^rd Minto), 29
Enghien, Due d', 7 1
England, Cliurch of, 39
English People, Napoleon's admir-
ation of, 36
English Revolution compved with
French, 76
Exmouth, Lord, 18, 2i, 22
Falmouth, 10
Ferdinand of Spain, 43
Festing, Captain, lo, 11, iin., 49,
50.53
Fisher s Valley, 10
Fontainbleau, Ney at, 3a n.
Fox, C. J., 42
Franklin, 53
French Revolution, 28, 33, 43, 76
German States, 64
78
INDEX
Gordon, Ludy GcorgiiUM, t^tti-
wards Duchc».s of Bedford, 66
Goargaud, General, l6, I9-«»» 37»
54, 59
Grenoble, 9, 30
Grcnvillc, I/ord, 59
Griffin, 8, 10, 20, 56
Grouchy, 7, 8
Guillaume 'fell, 53
Henry IV., 34
Hiercs Bay, 56
Hoar Cross, v
Holland, Lord, 61, 65 ; translator
of Lahez de Vega, 65
H6tcl de Villc, Treaty of Amiens
signed at, 41
Hotnani, Admiral, 67
Howe, Lord, 37
Hut's Gate, 3
Impetiteux, 53
India Trade, 26
Indigo, manu&cture of, 46
Ingram, Hon. Elizabeth, v
Inquisition, the, 66
Iron Cage, 76
Irving, Mr., i, 65-67
Irwin, Charles, 9th Viscount, v
Italy, 19, 32, 34, 64. 73
Jackson, Mr., 43, 57
Jamaica, 60
Joneti, Captain, 61
Keith, Lord, 51
Kinnaird, Lord, 10
Kleber, General, 23, 24, 35 n. ;
death of, 24 n.
Lampedosa, Island of, American
possession of, 35
Las Cases, Count, i, 20, 33 n.,
24 n., so
Lasnes, Marshal, 35
Lauderdale, Lord, 42
Lefevbre, Robert, 2
L^on of Honour, ■^l, 34
Leigh's journey in Egypt, 65
Leopold, Prince, 64
Leslie, Professor, 12
Liiburn, Borough of, represented
by Captain Meynell, vi
Longwood, fire at, 1 1 n.
L«fez de Vega, Translation of, 65
Ixjuis XIV., 18
Ix)uis XVIII., 32, 34, 35, 43, 44,
44 n.
Louvre, the, 44
Lowe, Sir Hudson, I, 15, 20, 47,
48, 62, 64, 66, 74
Macdonald, 33, 34
Mackenzie, 57
Macpherson, 4
Malcolm, Lady, vii, 3, 4, 9, 10, 17,
37-40, 49, 57, 58, 61-63, 65 ; A
Diary ef St. Helena, by, vii
Malcolm, Rear- Admiral Sir Pul-
teney, Commander-in-Chief of St.
Helena Station, v ; introduction
to Buonaparte, i ; visits Count
Bertrand, 3 ; visits Buonaparte,
3-9. 12, 15, 16, 21, 37, 47, 49,
59, 61, 65 ; his opinion of Nelson,
6 ; his leave-taking of Buonaparte,
i^ ; his visit to the Cape, 15-17 ;
his return, 16
Malmesbury, Lord, 57
Malta, possession of, 26, 35
Malta, 53
Marchand, General, 30, 31
Marengo, Battle of, 24 n,, 75
Maria Louisa, 63, 64
Melville, Lord, 51
Menpw, General, 24, 24 n.
Merry, Mr., 41
Meynell, Captain Henry, R.N.,
baptism of, v ; parentage of, v ;
commissions in Royal Navy*, v,
vi ; other appointments, vi ; M.P.
for Lisbum, vi ; visits Napoleon,
vii, 1, 10, 16, 21, 37 ; deatn of, vi
Meynell, Hugo, v
Milton, John, 52
Moncey, Colonel, 31
Montchenu, Marquisde,6,40, 59, 74
Montholon, General, i, 16, 19-21,
37. 54, 55
Montholon, Madame, 9, 16, 19, 54,
54n-> 55. 58
Moscow, 68 ; burning of, 27, 58
Murray, Captain, 10, \z
Napoleon I., su Buonaparte
Napoleon, King of Rome (son of
Napoleon I.), bust of, 62
79
INDEX
National Debt, 39
Nelson, Lord, 6, 29, 35, 51
Newcastle, v, 17, 19, 20, 38 ;
officers of the, 5
Newlands, seat of the Governor, 50
Ncy, Marshal, 32, 32 n., 75
Nile, the, 25 n., 26, 53
North, Mr., 29
Northumberland, 53
O'Meara, Dr., 48, 65, 67, 74
Orleans, Duke of, 33
Orontes, 48
Ossian's E^Arthulla, 4 ; Comalla, 4
Ossian's poems, 4 ; country, 10
Paoli, General, 27, 28
Pellew, 56
Petersburgh, 58, 68
Piontouski (a Pole), 20
Plampin, Admiral, 66
Plutarch, Antiqtus dc, 28
Poetry, conversation on, 52, 53
Poland, kingdom of, 58
Property tax in England, 43 n.
Pyramids, Battle of the, 22
Quom Church, extracts from Re-
gister of, V
R , SirT., 62, 63
Red Sea, 25 n., 26
Regicides, the, 52
Rivoli, 13
Robertson's Charles J'., 65
Rosetta, fighting at, 26
Rouen, suicide of Admiral Ville-
neuve at, 6n.
Rumbold, Mr., 42, 57
St. Esprit, Order of, 33
St. Helena, Sir Pulteney Malcolm
at, vii ; Buonaparte's arrival at, I ;
his dislike of, 5 ; Commissioners
from the Allied Powers at, 5 ;
pride of inhabitants of, 36
St, Helena, Diary of, vii
St. Helens, Lord, 57
Santa Maura, 2
Scotland, conversation on, 50-53
Scotland, Church of, 39
Shakespeare, William, 52
Sheridan's Rivals, 52
Sierra Leone, slaves landed at, 14
Silk, conversation on, 57-58
Slave Trade, 14
Smith, Sir Sydney, 23, 24, 25 n., 29
Somerset, Lord C, 50
Soult, Marshal, 32
South Seas, 11, iin., 12
Spain, 43, 43 n., 45, 60, 61 ; capture
of Spanish frigates, 60
Stanfell, Captain, 49, 50
Sturmer, Baron de, 6
Stunner, Baroness de, 40
Stuz to Cairo, Atuient Canal from.
Memoir on, 26
Sugar, manufacture of beet, 45, 46,
46 n.
Superb, 67
Swartzenbergh, Prince, Napoleon's
observations on, 74
Talleyrand, 70, 71
Talleyrand, Madame, 70, 7 1
Temple, Newsam, v
Theban, v
Tilsit, Treaty of, 27, 58
Tithes, pajmient of, 39
Tonnant, 53
Toulon Fleet, 7
Toulon, Siege of, 28
Trafalgar, Battle of, 6
Tristan d'Acunha, Island of, I in.,
17
Turkey, dismemberment of, 27
Vengeur, 36 n.
Venice, Gulf of, shipbuilding in, 13
Villencuve, Admiral, suicide of, 6 n.
Warden, Mr., book referred to,
28n.,65, 71, 72
Waterloo, Battle of, 7, 8, 54, 58, 59
Wauchope, Captain, 21
Wellington, Duke of, 7, 44, 44 n.,
45.51
West Indies, importation of sugar
from, 46
Whist, game of, 68
Whitworth, Lord, 41, 42, 57
Wright, CapUin, 61
Wynyard, Colonel, 2
Wynjraird, Mrs., 2
LondoK : SitOn^jiays, Pnnttrs.
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