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Teetlmony of T/5th Grade Willie Ellis taken
at Seattle, Waehington on 25 September 19Mf ty
Lieutenant Colonel CizrtlB L. Vllllaais, ISD.
The witness vas svom.
Q State your naine, rank, serial nimber, and organization.
A T/5 Willie Ellis, 650th Port Company, 585*^7*^67, Fort Lavton,
Washington.
Q Are you famllisBr with your rights as a witness under the 2Uth
Article of War?
''■ A Yes, sir.
Q Are you sure? >
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of August lUth, V)W, I helleve you hare testified
that you went to your "barracks ahout 9 o'clock?
A Yes, sir.
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think.
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Did you go to hed?
Yes, sir.
And did you go to sleep?
Yes, I slept awhile. .„^
What time did you go to "bed? . . ; *- 5 .
I don't know, hetween 9 and 10 somewhere. ■' ,.
Were you later awakened during the night?
Yes, sir. '
About what time were you awakened?
I don't know, it was kind of late that night, after eleven I
Eleven o'clock in the evening?
Yes, sir.
What awakened you?
Noisedown in the Italian Area.
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(ELLIS)
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Q When you were firat awakened, what noise did you hear?
A Some trucks and things going down in the area and I could hear
a lot of talking.
Q Could you hear screaming?
A No, sir.
Q Yelling?
A Just hear some hoys talking loud.
Q You could hear rocks heing thrown against huildings?
A Yes, sir.
Q And glass heing hroken?
A Yes, sir. "" '
Q You got up then?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you went outside the huilding?
A Yes, sir.
Q What harracks do you sleep in?
A It was — I forget the number — it was on the edge of the foot
of the hill.
Q In one of the hlack harracks?
A In a white one.
Q Was it 719* right across from the mess hall? ^
A Yes, seven something, I forget the other number.
Q Anyway, you were awakened and got up from your bed.
A Yes, sir.
Q I believe you stated you went downstairs?
A Yes, sir. ■':.,■ •' v;
Q When you got downstairs what did you see.
A I went downstairs.
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Q After you had gotten downstairs on the bott<»a floor, who did you
see down there that you remember?
A I don't remember seeing anyone I could recognize.
(ELLIS)
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Q Were euay gixards placed on the doare at that time?
A At the hack door?
Q Yes.
A No, Blr.
Q Did you see Sergeant Ttoner? Do you taaow Sergeant Tanner?
Ai- No, flir.
Q Then you vent out Bide 7
A Tea, sir.
Q Did you go over near the mess hall after you were outside?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you got to the mess hall, or in the yaclnity of the mess
hall, wh<M did you ohserre there?
A There was an Italian — I didn't recognize anyone.
Q Wait a minute. When you arrived In the vicinity of the mess hall
did you see anyone you recognized?
A No, sir.
Q Then where did you go?
A I turned arouad and I caioe hack.
Q You turned around and went hack where?
A To the "barracks, sir.
Q Now, why did you go "back to the "barracks?
A The first sergeant, I could hear him telling the rest of the
hoys to don't go down.
Q Who was the first sergeant?
A Rohert Aahry.
Q You heard him telling some of the "boys not to go down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Aad you turned around and went "back to your harracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you went "back to the "barracks, what did you do?
A I went upstairs and got in "bed and finally an MP came up there
and I could hear them talking and the Major and OD came up and told them
to cut out the lights.
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(Ellis)
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Q You then vent to sleep?
A Tee, sir.
Q When you left the vicinity of the mess hall and went toward the
Italian Area, what road did you take into the Italian Area, Lawton
Eoad?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you arrlTed in the yiclnlty of Building 708, the first
huilding "behind the mess hall, what was going on there?
A All the lights was out in the harracks.
Q Inside the building?
A The two on the outside was out, hut the one in the mess hall
was lit up.
Q In "back of the mess hall?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you could see individuals there, couldn't you?
A They got down the street.
Q You mean they were walking away from Building 708 toward the
orderly rocai.
A Yes, sir, behind the first barracks.
Q They were between 708 and 709?
A The first two buildings on the other side of the barracks.
Q Did you go behind 708?
A No, sir.
Q Did you go between 708 and 709?
A You mean the two barracks?
Q Yes.
A No, sir.
Q Where did you go in the Italian Area?
A Between the mess hall and the first barracks. That is when I
heard the first sergeant telling the fellows not to go down there.
Q While you were down there standing between the mess hall and
Building 708, who did you see you recognized?
A I didn't see anyone, but someone throwed at me, it was kind of
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(EIXIS)
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dark. I was further from the mees hall and closer to the harracks.
Q In other words, you were inside the Italian Area?
A I reckon so, "between the mess hall and the first "barracks.
Q Near the "barracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q While you stood there you state someone threw at you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see who did that?
A No, sir, it was on the left hand side of me.
Q What did they throw at you?
A I don't know, a rock I reckon.
Q Did it hit you?
A No, sir, it was a'bout k feet away.
Q After they had thrown at iyou, you went into the Italian Area, is
that It?
A No, sir, that Is when the first sergeant was objecting and calling
the fellows and telling them not to go down there.
Q As you went from the vicinity of Building 700 into the Italian
Area, did you pick up anything to defend yourself with?
A Yes, sir.
Q What?
A Eocks, a couple of them,
Q Where did you find the rocks?
A Laying on the ground.
Q Why did you take the rocks into the Italian Area?
A Sir, the rocks was already there.
Q Why did you take them with you?
A I didn't take any with me, I Just picked them up where I was.
Q After you got into the Italian Area you picked up some rocks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why?
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(ELLIS)
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A Just to defend myself.
Q No one had thrown at you at that tine?
A Yes, that le vhen I picked up the rocks.
Q After they threw at you you picked up the rocks?
A Tea, sir.
Q You hadn't plck»d them up "before that tine?
A No, sir.
Q Did you take a cluh with you?
A No, sir. ^\^
Q Didn't you come hy iDulldlng 700 where the 2-"by-l^'s are and didn't
you pick one up and carry It with you?
A No, sir. . ~ '
Q The only weapon you had was two rocks you picked up after you
were thrown at?
A No, sir, Jiust one rock. "■ ^ '
Q Did you throw It at anyone?
A No, sir, I didn't see anyone to throw It at.
Q You were down in the Itedlan Area, In the vicinity of Building
700 and didn't see anyone?
A They had — when I got up they had come around the other side
of the harracks.
Q When you stood there there weren't men passing hack and forth
"between the Italian Area and "building 7OO?
A I seen some MP's. They was coming around the end of the "barracks
In a Jeep about that time, the MP's was.
Q When did the MP's arrive there?
A I don't know.
Q Before you got there or afterwards?
A I saw them "before I got there. Tl^t Is what woke me up, those
trucks going down in the area.
Area?
Q You state now you were awakened "by trucks moving Into the Italian
Talking and hollering, loud talk around there.
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0 Isn«t it a fact, Ellis, you were awakened ty the hollering in
front of the herracks and the loud talking and that you got up and went
outBlde and were outside when the tructo arrived there?
A Yes, sir.
Q It wasn't the trucks, it was the hollering outside the huilding
that awakened you?
A2 I reckon so.
you?
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The trucks cane after you were outside.
SoD» Jeeps were already down there.
How do you know they were already down there?
Some was going hy.
After you had gotten outside the hullding?
Yes, sir. ,
You had heard none while you were inside the huilding? ^ ,
No, sir, I Just heard the rocks and things.
You heard a hunch of men kicking the hoards out of a fence, didn't
No, sir, I don't remember.
Q You didn't hear them kicking down the fence and picking up
hoards and taking them to the Italian Area? t ^ t+
A No, sir, hecause a hunch of fellows were upstairs— I don x
know— some of the fellows upstairs were shooting dice or something like
that and making a lot of noise up there.
Q Did you hear the soldiers in front of Building 700 kick the
hoards off the fence and did you see them later pick up the hoards and
take them to the Italian Area? ^ '.
A No, sir.
Q You remember the fence in front of Building TOO? ; ;
A Yes, sir, I rememher it.
Q Did you hear the colored first sergeant hollering at the men to
leave that fence alone and to get away from it. aflr^eant say
A I didn't hear that. The only time I heard the first sergeant say
anything was when I was going in the area.
Q That was Sergeant Auhry?
(Ellis)
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A Yes, sir.
Q When you stood "between Building 700 and Barracks 708 you have
testified you heard the first sergeant tell the men to get hack in their
harracks?
A Yes, Blv. They had started down in the area "because I heard
all those coming hack and they didn't go down there and that is when I
turned around.
Q You Just came out and went hack to your harracks?
A Yes, sir. •. >
Q While you stood in the Italian Area hetween huildings 700 and
708, did you hear the fight in the orderly room?
A Yes, sir.
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You could hear the Italians screaming?
Yes, sir.
And you could hear the clubs hitting individuals?
I could hear sticks and rocks and things heing thrown.
Couldn't you hear licks "being hit on what sotmded like human
I could hear someone hollering, "Oh, OhI"
Didn't that sound like someone "being hit?
Yes, sir.
Q From where you stood at the end of huilding 7O8, you could see
the orderly room, couldn't you?
A I was on the end, I was standing right this way, I wasn't
exactly around the light.
Q You wouldn't have to he in the lighted area hetween huildings
700 and 708, if you were nearer 708 you could see the orderly room.
A I was hetween the mess hall and the harracks.
Q You could see in the area?
A It was dark at that first harracks.
Q Wasn't the light on in front of the second harracks?
A No, sir, I didn't see any.
Q Wasn't there a light on in the orderly room?
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(ELLIS)
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A Tea, air.
Q Wasn't the door open?
A Yea, air, I could see lota of toys down there "but I didn't
recognize \rtio they vere.
^ Q Didn't the light shine into the area siirroundlng the hullding?
A I don't rememiber.
Q You could see the hoys standing in front of 713?
A I could see them, hut I didn't recognize them.
Q Isn't it a fact that vhen you stand in front of T08 you can't see
the orderly room?
A I don't remember sir, I could see the tents siround there.
Q But you couldn't see the orderly room?
A No, sir, I never "been in that area hefore, I couldn't tell the
orderly room, there was a hunch of people down there.
Q Isn't it a fact you were down in the orderly room?
A No, sir.
Q Isn't it a fact you went around this tent?
A No, sir.
Q And you saw the people right up close here?
A No, sir, I didn't go close to the tents, I was at the first "barracks.
Q Why did you tell us you could see the people standing in front
of the orderly room?
A I could see them around the tents, I don't know how far from the
orderly room, "but I could see fellows around those tents.
Q But you didn't recognize any of them?
A I could recognize some of them after they came hack and were
talking.
Q Who did you talk to after they had moved out of the Iteillan
Area and returned to the "barracks? Who told you they were in the fight?
A After they ceme hack I was already in the harracks.
Q After they came back you talked to a lot of them?
A Well, yes, some of the fellows came upstairs and they was talking
and I could recognize those.
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Q What were the neunes of the fellows that came tack and tedked ahout
"being In the fight?
A Arthur Stone.
Q Is he a member of the 650th?
A Yes, sir.
Q What are the names of the others?
A Bussell Ellis.
Q 'is he a member of the 650th?
A Yes, sir, Nathaniel Spencer.
Q Is he a memiber of the 650th? .:'':=■
A Yes, sir. Sergeant Hurks. . ■ ••
Q Is he a member of the 650th?
A Yes, sir.
Q Others?
A There was one fellow, I can't think of his name, I know him.
Q Think of his name, we will give you a little time.
A Larkin, I think it was Luther Larkin.
Q Any others you rememher?
A No, sir,
Q Let's go over those again.
A There is Freddie Lee Simmons.
Q Is he a memher of the 650th?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that all you remember tedking ahout heing in the fight?
A Yes, sir, that is the only men I rememher "being in the fight,
Q Did you talk to them ahout it?
A They came upstair, a hunch of fellows.
Q Arthur Stone, what did you hear Arthus say concerning his
participation in the fight?
A He came upstairs and was talking a'bout who was down there
and some of the fellows said they wasn't there. I was sleeping in
the — I was in the front "bed in the middle Isle of the "barracks and he
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(ELLIS)
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said, "Did you go?" and I said, "No, started and got "between the first
"barracks and the mess hall," and he said, "All the men that didn't go
down there were yellow."
Q Did he say he had "been there?
A Yee, sir.
Q Did he say he had hit any people there?
A No, sir, he said all that didn't go were hellow.
Q Did he say what kind of a club he took?
A No, sir. - ^
Q Did he tell you what part he had taken in the fight?
A No, sir, he Jvist said those that didn't go there were yellow.
Q He didn't say he had gone in the orderly room and had hit
Italians in tha^* room?
A No, sir, I didn't hear him say that.
Q Russell Ellis, what conversation did you have with him or what
did you hear Russell Ellis say ahout his participation in the fight?
A He is a Private— I am not sure a"bout his rank — "but I
Just heard him say he was in the area and he said he had some fun.
Q Did he say what form that fun took?
A No, sir. : .
Q Did he say he had hit some Italians?
A No, sir. Some more soldiers were in there, "but I don't recognize
who they were, they had Just "been transferred in, I didn't know what
all they were talking a'bout having fun.
Q Now the others, Nathaniel Spencer, what did you hear him
say?
A He said, "I went down there and had myself a "ball." I don't
know what he is talking a"bout.
Q Did he say who he had hit?
A No, sir.
Q Did he say where he was doing the fighting?
A No, sir, he said he was in the area.
Q Did any of them exhibit their weapon or show "blood stains on their
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clothing that they had received in the fight?
A I don't remeinber seeing "blood stains.
Q Were there any others whom you heard conversing ahout "being
in the fight?
A Freddie Simmons, he said he was in the area somewhere, in the
orderly room and he looked around and an Italian had a stick and he
figured he was going to hit him and he ducked out of the way of it.
I don't know whether he did or not, ,
Q Simmons didn't say whether he hit the Italian after he made
a pass at him, did he?
A No, sir. I remember him saying he was in the orderly room
and the Italian was fixing to hit him and he said if he had it would
have killed him.
Q Was this conversation which you overheard among all the
participants of the fight in your part of the "barracks?
A All in my part of the "barracks.
Q Was it a formal get together to tell each other who had "been in
there and condemn those who had refused to join?
A I don't know, there was lots of doing and lo*s of talking.
Q Let me get this straight. Were all those who had made admissions
they had "been in the fight opposed to those who had not gone to the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they called those who didn't go to the fight yellow? /
A Yes, sir, Arthur Stone did.
Q You heard Arthur Stone say that all who didn't go down there
were yellow? ,
A Yes, sir.
Q Ellis, at the time you left your "barracks and went Into the
Italian Area, Isn't it a fact that you realized the colored and
Italian soldiers were fighting there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Isn't it a fact that your purpose in going into the Italian
Area was to assist the colored mem'bers of your company in the fight
against the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Ellis, as you stood in "between Building 700 and 708, did you
see any colored soldiers in the vicinity of Building 715/ the orderly
room?
A Well, as I said, I couldn't swear they were in the orderly room,
it W618 in that area.
Q In the area of what?
A The Italian Area.
Q , Around the tents?
A Yes, sir,
Q In other words, the people you saw striking the Itedlans were in
the vicinity of the two pyramidal tents in the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Near the orderly room, isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you saw outside the hullding colored soldiers striking the
Itedlans who were running?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were these Italians screaming?
A No, sir, they was running and you could hear some of them
hollering, I don't know whether they were screaming.
Q You coxild see the colored soldiers using cluhs on them?
A Yes, sir, hut I didn't recognize any of them.
Q You could see the colored soldiers w leldlng cluhe against the
Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q Although you say you couldn't see, it was light enough for you
to see they were Italians running and you could distinguish they were
Italians and you could see the colored soldiers. Now, why Is it you
can't identify some of the individuals with cluhs?
A I can't identify any of them, there was Just a hunch running
around. Just a lot of fellows that came In that company and In that
area.
Q What company are you referring to now?
A The 65l8t.
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Q You know the memterB of your company quite well, don't you?
A Yes, sir, moat of them.
Q Wasn't it light enough so that you could have seen the individuals
who were using the clubs?
A Yes, "but I Just couldn't recognize their name.
Q Isn't it a fact that the names of some of these people you have
given are some of the men using those clubs?
A No, sir, I don't remember seeing them with any clubs, that is
when I heard them saying it, after they returned to the barracks. p,
Q As you heard the soldiers of your con^any in conversation >>•
concerning their part in the riot on the night of August ll»th, 1941^,
did you observe any torn clothing or ruffled clothing that they were
wearing which would lead you to believe they were in the riot?
A I don't know, sir, I can't remember.
Q Then if you observed any you don't remember it now?
A Yes, sir, I don't remember it now. I might be guilty, but I am
going to tell you the right story now. On the evening, on Monday the ll^th,
we was getting ready to leave the next day in the evening and I was down
to the PI drinking, myself and Floyd Hawkins and Leslie Stewart and
Aguinaldo Thomas, he was there, and another fellow, I don't know him, he
come out to see Sergeant Veeder, and he was drinking some and another
fellow, John Li; Williams, he was drinking some and some more fellows
were standing around and I drank two or three bottles of beer or something
like that, and Floyd Hawkins said, "Come with me," and I said, "OK".
I got no money, I sent all the money home, I was going to keep our pay
somewhere else and I didn't drink much and Sergeant Veeder came and talked
to us and Sergeant Martin come in there and he told me to get up and go to
the mess hall, to help clean up the mess hall and the other fellows, I
don't remember their names, we cleaned up the mess hall and it was between
8 and 9 when I got out and I came back and I went to sleep in "bed and there
was some fellows in there gambling, shooting dice and they pushed my
bed back and they said, "Do you gamble?" and I said, "Yes, I gamble scanetime."
I got in bed and they was shooting dice and when I voke up there was
hollering going on. I got up then, I was wearing leggins — I put
on the leggins. Just hooked the straps around and got my fatigue hat and
put it on and I goes in the area. I got to— it must have been this
building here where I could see —
Q You mean it must have been building 709 instead of 708?
A Yes, I got to this building and I could see them and I didn't
still have no rocks thrown at me and I got a rock axid I started in there
336
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(ELLIS)
Keproaucea at me National Arclif
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "/l -^C33
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and I CQuld hear the first sergeant hollering. In fact, I didn't go hack
right then, I could see two fellows and there was a Jeep standing there
and they got In this Jeep, hut I didn't see much hut a hunch of people
out there, hoth companies, and In the meantime I saw some hoy get In the
Jeep and knock these two tents down.
if; -.,
Q By driving the Jeep against the tents? "^ ^
A Yes, sir. '
, ■■ - .>
Q There were two hoys In the Jeep? 'r
A One of them was Curtis Blhhs, he Is ahout my height, ..^
Q Is he a private?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else? ■
A Sanders, hut he Is gone with the company.
Q John Sanders? ' ,
A No, sir.
Q Bohert Sanders?
A It must have heen Bohert .
Q Is he a Private?
A Yes, sir, I think he Is, I am not for sure.
Q Tell me what they did.
A Thej was In the Jeep and they knocked two tents down and
I could see some new fellows around there and they had sticks, hut I
couldn't recognize them.
Q Are any of those new fellows that Just Joined your company
helng held In the guard house?
A No, sir, one of them I think Is Black, he Is a tall hrown-sklnned
fellow that Jiuat came from New Orleems and two or three of them have '
got the same last name, hut the first name Is different.
Q This man you recognize you say Is Black? v;,
A Yes, sir, he Is a tall fellow.
Q What kind of clothes was he wearing?
A I am not for sure hecause I wasn't —
most of them had on suntans or fatigues then.
I didn't recognize them>
s£:
337
(ELLIS)
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Q Tou saw Black. Who else did you see at that time aroimd the
tents that were "battering the tents "besides those In the Jeep and the
ones vlth the clubs that you recognized?
A I want to tell the truth. ;
Q That Is what we want, we know you are going to tell the truth.
A I am trying to think, I know them If I could see them, I would
know them.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
anyone?
A
his name.
There are a num"ber of people you saw out In this area.
There were those fellows In the Jeep.
Who were the others you recognized?
This other fellow. Black.
Who did you see with cluhs or knives or axes or saw them strllplng
A fellow with the 651st, I could point him out, I don't know '
Q Would you recognize him If you saw him again?
A No, sir. In the 651st there Is a fellow, Eohert Salth, he said
he knew the fellow In this company that had the ax.
Q Who did you say his name was?
A I don't know, "but Robert Smith Is still with us. He told me when
he came "back to the "barracks that this follow said that he hdd an az or a
hatchet. \
Q And chopped down the door?
A He didn't say that.
Q After you ohserred that you ohserred others going In the
httlldlng?
A Yes, sir, at that time two MP's came down In a Jeep and they
went In, they didn't say anything, they went In, and John Plnckney was
one of them.
Q While you were standing In here, around these two tents, you
must hare seen a great many soldiers go In that door next to the tents
and saw some hit the Italians inside the "building.
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were those that went In there?
A Johnnie Ceaaer?
Did you see Ceaser?
m: t.
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(ELLIS)
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Bv^3PNARADate^P^'^/0Z
Keproflucea at tne National Arcnn
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,?V. [:J
ntufTSI '-
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Do you knov him?
Yes, sir.
Did you see him?
I don*t renemher.
.•* '
Did you see King? : \ ^
Yes, sir. ! -
Where was King?
He was In that eurea. When I seen him he was down there, I don't
-i- as-
know where.
Q What was King doing when you saw him?
A He had a stick and was trying to tell the fellows to quit fighting.
Q He was trying to tell the fellows to try to quit fighting?
A Yes, sir.
Q Wasn't he t60.klng to Hughes at that place?
A Frank Hughes was there.
Q You saw him? ^
A Yes, air.
Q You couldn't hear King talking to him?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear King trying to get the fellows hack to their "barracks?
A He was going around the place trying to get them hack to their
heirracks.
Q Who was that he was telling that to? I want his name because he
was in the area?
A I don't know, I don't remember, sir, right now,
Q Who did you see inside the "building hesidee King? There were
others inside the huildlng you saw.
A It was the fellows you called out awhile ago.
Q Did you see them down there, all those fellows?
A Yes, air, I seen all those fellows, the ones I named.
Q Stone?
A I saw him.
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(ELLIS)
m-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^ J 3 '^ -^ -
Bv^^PnaRA Date ^0^1^ /^Z
Keproauceo ai me Naiionai flrcn
.^^^ainl&i'r^A-
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J ir
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Q Stone was there? " <
A Yes, sir, I don't know how that building was made. \ ;
Q It Is a little hulldlng and this is the window here.
A There was a window on the side? ' ■ *
Q Yes, then there Is a door that goes into this room and then another
one that leads Into another room. There is an entrance here with a door
and there are windows here. Here are the two tents here and this Jeep was
husting into that tent and there was a civilian car sitting there.
A I couldn't tell, it wets covered all the way down.
■ r
Q That is right, that was a car.
A Yes, sir.
Q As you stood here you saw King in this door and there was somehody
here, do you remember who that was? :._
A No, sir, there was a bunch of boys.
Q But you saw Stone?
A Stone was coming in here somewhere.
Q In this building?
A Yes, sir.
(INVESTIGATING OFFICER: Let the record show Stone was passing
back and forth between rooms Y and X. )
Q You saw him pass from Room Y into Eoaa X?
A Yes, sir. y
Q Where did you see him go, did you see him strike anyone with a
club or a stick? Could you see Stone if he had used a club?
A He had a stick.
Q What kind of a stick, a 2-by-li-, or a 2-by-2 or a white stick?
A It wasn't a 2-by-l^.
Q What do you think it was? Was it a limb off a tree? •
A It looked to me like a round stick.
Q And he was carrying that as you saw him go from Room X to Y?
A Yes, sir, he had a stick.
Q Where did you see Stone again?
'■"SKKii.
(ELLIS)
■^..y«. ^
;« -/ ■ ;i,i 4fe4 ^ k ''^■-''l^:.,j^^-=,i- --i^ ..,:^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^/3 '^^
Bv^3PnaRA Date^fe^l^/OZ
Keproduced a! the National Arctii
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A The next time I sav him he was In the "barracks?
Q He was In the "barracks? ;; -
A Yes, sir. . . , f
Q Stone was "bragging ahout "being there and Uttlng people?
A Yes, sir, he said he vas down there and he said all those that
didn't go down were yellow.
Q Stone was telling the others that in your presence?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you knew he was there "because you had seen him? 'f ^
A Yes, sir. V
Q And you knew he wasn't lying? ■ i. ^- ;:■.
A Yes, sir. "' ;
Q After you saw Stone through this door, whom did you see?
A Nathaniel Spencer.
Q Where, in the tent right here? ■-
A The front door. ^ ':: '
Q Entering Rocm Z? ■"
A Yes, sir. f: ' f ■
. . ,jy - , • "" \ <
Q What did he have, a stick?
A A stick, a slat. : '- T
Q A flat "board or a 2-"by-2? I
A It wasn't that large. J - -
■ f " i'
Q Was it a l-hy-2?
A Yes, sir, "but it was split.
■f-
Q And he was going through Door E Into Room Z?
A Yes, sir. When he got here I could see Italians, I reckon that
is what they were, they was standing in that door and I heard him say.
It was an American.
Q After you saw Nathaniel Spencer enter Eoom Z through Door E and
approach Door B, you saw Nathaniel Spencer having some conversation with
some Italians in Room X, Is that right?"
A It wsuB a "bunch of Americans. |
(ELLIS)
Reproduced at the National Arch
DECLASSIFIED
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Q You hoard the conversation?
, A Yes, sir. .v >
Q VQiat was the conversation which Nathaniel Spencer was having with
the Italians inside Room X?
A Nathaniel, when he got there, he said-- I remember hearing this
fellow, he asked why they were jumping on some men in oxir compeuiy, that
is when he asked them that, why did you Jump on those men in there and they
said, "Because you are Italians," and he said, "Ve are American soldiers."
Q He said, "We are American soldiers*?
A Yes, sir,
Q In other words, the man Nathaniel talked to informed Nathaniel ■
he was an American soldier?
A Yes, sir,
Q What did Spencer do then?
A Some of them had on clothing with Italy on them and he said,
"You aren't American soldiers,"
Q And hit him?
A I didn't see him hit him,
Q As you ohserved Nathaniel Spencer after his conversation with
the persons who Informed him they were American soldiers and who you saw
had on Italy "brassards, then did you see Nathaniel strike one of them?
A He raised up like that.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
He raised his club?
Yes, sir.
Threateningly?
Yes, sir.
Toward the Italians?
Yes, sir.
Who stood Inside Eoom X?
Yes, sir.
Did you?
Was there a hunch standing there?
IHiere was some more fellows standing there.
Some more what?
902
(ELLIS)
=•' -::i'J: ■^f^X'-'S^*!^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^y^-^CS^
Bv^3pNARADate^fc^l^/0Z
Keproaucea at tne National Arctiiv
»^iii imUm '<«*'•■■■*
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A Colored soldiers. ^/
Q There vere some more colored soldiers standing xxear Nathaniel?
A Yes, sir, some In front of him and sane hetween him and the
Italians and one or two fellows had been transferred to the companjr vere
standing on the side.
Q Do 70U know the names of way others around Door E as Nathaniel
Spencer made motions to strike some Italians inside the room?
A No, sir, "but I could recognize them if I saw them.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Giro me the names of those that vere standing there at the door?
At that time I saw Nathaniel Spencer and Freddie Lee Simmons.
Is Freddie Lee a member of the 650thT '
Yes, sir, sr
What was Freddie doing? ^ ^.
He was standing there. ;?''
He had a cluh?
Yes, sir.
What kind of a club did he have in his hand? *
A long stick that looked like the one Arthur Stone had.
.^^
■^
t
Was it one of the vhite sticks?
Yes, sir.
About three Inches in diameter?
Yee, sir, ahout that hlg around.
Ahout three inches in diameter?
Yes, sir.
t
m
%..■-
door?
Was he standing heslde Door B in Room Z vhen you sav him? '
Yes, sir, -5j- ■'■■-■ ' ■ i^-
Was there any Italians coming out of that door? ■ *, •
After the MP^s came. .■- ! < :,..
We haven *t got to the MP's yet. Who else did you see around that
;;■ I.,::-; -.. . .■.:i-.^
I seen Walter Jackson. - j-
■4^
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903
(ELLIS)
*»i
•■w^. ?if -^r# •;-;4V-^;
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '/^ •^'^^^
Reproduced at the National Arctiiv
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Q Where was Walter standing In reference to Door B?
A In "between.
Q In Ijetween Spencer who stood on the right side of the door and
Simmons who stood on the left-hand side?
A Spencer was in the center — anyway, Simmons was on one side and
another fellow, Jackson, they were in kind of s circle in front of the door.
Q Jackson, Simmons, and Spencer were standing in a semi -circle
enclosing Door B?
A Yes, sir.
Q There was another fellow there, there were foxir of them there,
what was his name?
A I cannot tell you now.
Q Where were you when you saw these four fellows at door B?
A Back out this way.
Q How far from ths door, 5 or !»• feet?
A No, sir, further than that. You know where the tent was?
Q The tent that was hroken down?
A Yes, sir. I was standing around there.
Q You ohserved Simmons, Spencer and Walter Jackson?
A I can't think of this other fellow's name. I know there were
four fellows there.
Q There were four there?
A Four men including Simmons.
Q And Wedter Jackson and Nathaniel Spencer?
A Yes, sir.
Q Md one other man that you don't know now?
A I can't think of his name right now.
Q If you think of it tell us. As you observed these four men standing
near Door B, you were outside the "building looking through Door E?
A Yes, sir.
Q The tent had heen knocked down "by the Jeep?
A Yes, sir.
(ELIIS)
:c^-^-:r
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Authority ^/3 '^^
.b >
By^3pNARA Date^P^I^/^Z
Kepioaucea m ine i\a:ionai Mrcru
25
^"""giJMiiflllWOiw "*""'*"**'"""*""""""'
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Q As you stood out there and watched the proceedings In Room Z, didn't
you see the fighting going on In Eoom Y In the comer over here?
A Well, there was something going on In there, I wasn't paying
any attention.
Q Could you hear the Italians In that room screaming?
A Oh, yes, you could hear screaming. ■ .
Q Loud?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't see someone valk up to the window and reach through it
and hit on the desk inside the room? You saw it, didn't you?
A Yes, sir, "but —
Q You saw someone rea^h through —
A Some men out of the 651st was inrolved in this too.
Q Did you see Roy Montgomery?
A No, sir, I never seen him down there.
Q Willie Basden?
A I know I saw Townsell.
Q Booker Townsell?
A Yes, sir, his last name is Townsell.
Q Where did you see Townsell?
A He was standing at this window.
Q The window that leads into Boom Y^
A Yes, sir.
Q What was he doing?
A He was talkingV he said he didn't know what was going on and he
come out to see, he said he Just come from the show and he had a stick.
Q What kind of a stick did Townsell have in his hand?
A A green stick, panted.
Q A a-hy-J*?
A It wasn't that big.
Q It W81S only an inch thick?
A Yes, sir, it was long.
■ ' V ~-
305
(ElilS)
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DECLASSIFIED
Authority__/_J__l2_L_^
r^BjJiuuuueu di me rvauonai Mrcnii
A
21^
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Q What wae he doing with it when you ohBerred him, was he reaching
through the window and striking someone that was lying on the floor?
A No, sir. ; .
Q You did not see' him reach through with his arm and make a downward
motion?
A No, sir, he was standing there talking to all the men and fellows
around there, they was 8lL1 standing in a circle and had their hacks to me.
Q Who else was standing talking to Townsell?
A They were men out of the other company.
Q The 651st?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were they?
A I don't know very many.
Q Give me the names of those that you do know.
A Those I know?
Q Yes.
A Those fellows I know wasn't there.
Q The only person you recognized who stood "between door E and the
window that leeuis into Room Y was Townsell?
A Yes, sir.
Q ABd you could not recognize any others talking with Townsell?
A No, sir, hecause they was standing in a circle.
Q All those talking to Townsell had clubs?
A Yes, sir, I can tell you how many there were.
Q How many?
A Three.
Q Besides Townsell?
A Yes, sir.
Q They were discussing what part they had played in it up to that
point; is that right?
A They was telling them they heard the Italians Jumped on some ,
men in the 65l8t and they come down to help.
006
^ (ELLIS)
^..
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ""^^ ^-^
3
Bv^3pNARADate^fc^i:^/^Z
Keproaucea ai tne NaDonai Arcni
UMiiik^l^ w-'il
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area?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Who else did you observe as you stood by the tent?
That Is when I left.
After you left your position beside the tent, vhere did you go?
I came around the front of the building.
You say you went around Door A?
Yes, sir.
As you went around Door A, what did you observe happening in that
Pinckney was there and Stone was there and John Lee Hamilton.
After you arrived at Door A and before the MP's arrived in the
area, what did you observe happening in the vicinity of Door A?
A There was some Italians laying there that got hit.
Q Where?
A In this rocan.
Q In the room where the isle goes?
A There was a door it looked like back in here,
Q The Italians were lying in Room X?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you observe any Italian in Room X?
A I remember seeing one lying back here, he was over here,
Q Was that Italian you obseirj'ed bleeding?
A SOTie thing like bleeding on the arm. ,
You saw other Italian and Anerican soldiers in there, white American
Q
soldiers?
A I seen a tall white American soldier.
Q Was he wounded?
A I didn't see any blood.
Q Didn*t you see Italian and American soldiers lying on the floor
inside Room X?
A This soldier was standing up telling them he was an American
soldier and asked what they was fighting about,
Q What did the colored soldiers reply to that remark?
A He said, "They Jumped on some of our boys."
1 07
(ELLIS)
r
'■'■4& "V r'
■■^'mi'
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DECLASSIFIED
Authority ' j3 '^'^^
By^NARA Date^P^I^/CZ
Keproflucea at the National Archt
26
^ij-o ,^)r.D*ii*'
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Q IHd 70U see anyone as you stood there In the vicinity of
Door A strike the tall American soldier?
A No, sir. %. i^
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
But he was "bloody on the arm?
This tall American soldier?
'fi-'
Yes.
No, sir, I never saw any "blood. * ^
He didn't have on an Italian "brassard, did he?
No, sir, he didn't have on anything hut pants, I think they were
fatigue pants and h© had on the white top of an undershirt.
Q vniat colored soldiers did you o'b serve in Room X as you stood
near Door A?
A That is when Stone and John Lee were there.
Q Stone and-
A John Lee Hamilton.
Q What was Stone doing when you ohserved him from Do9r A?
A At that time he was standing up talking,
Q Did he have a cluh in his hand?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was he talking to, American or Italian soldiers?
A Scxne men, there were a lot of white Italians standing with the
American, I think he is a Pfc.
Q But Stone was talking to the men? >
A Yes, sir.
Q What was Stone saying, were they still tedklng ahout helng
American soldiers?
A Yes, sir, this one soldier was telling them they was American
soldiers and they SBked why they were fighting or something like that
and he told them they jumped on some fellows and this American soldier
asked what he could do to help them.
4 Didn't some of the colored soldiers then and there take the
American soldier out of the huildlng, escort him out of the hulldlng?
A Escort him out?
^LJ8
(ELLIS)
i ^* Mi:.^.^'.mM:^^,.%_:^, ^^^
W^'
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "^ j'l)^'^^^
Keproaucea ai ine Naiionai ftrcnr
As*--.-*-
!.;«&««'*••■*»- *
-vji^;,
■•*
.r'5, ;
27
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■^•«««.: »..,
-a. : ""f
Q Yes, help Mm out? ' v.. ' '-"^ . -
A No, sir. ■:'''■ " ^
Q You didn't see that?
A No, sir.
Q As you watched Stone from then on what did he do, did he renew
his assault on these Italians?
A I never saw Stone hit anyone, they was all tedklng and cussing.
Q The other man that was talking to Stone, what was his name? -/
A John lee Hamilton.
Q And as you saw John he had a cluh?
A Yes, Blr. ^
Q What was he doing?
A John Lee? , ■
Q Yes.
A Most of the time just talking.
Q John Lee Is the man we are talking ahout now. a-
, A I didn't see John Lee do anything.
Q He was Just standing there talking and holding a cluh In his
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't see him strike some Italians?
A No, sir.
hand?
Q Didn't you see him while he was inside Building 7I3, didn't
you see John Lee Hamilton strike some IteQ-ians?
A No, sir.
Q Who else did you see in the room at the time John Lee Hamilton
and Stone were Inside?
A Rohert Sanders.
Q Where did you see Eohert Sanders?
A After they left the Jeep him and Richard BarTser came Inside.
Q You ohserved Eoherts Sanders and Richard Barher in Building 713
through Door A?
909
(ELLIS)
ii
r
Keproauced ai me Naiicna Archiv
DECLASSIFIED
Authority J.)-^^^ ">
Bv^^PnaRA Datei^D^imZ
28
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A Yes, sir, they came in the same room Stone and the other fellow
was.
Q What did Senders and Barher have in their hands?
A Ihey had sticks.
Q Clubs?
A Yes, sir.
Q After they entered Door A where did they go?
A They were just coming through.
Q Through Door D into Room X?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did they do then?
A Ihey came through here and Stone and this other fellow were
coming into this part.
Q When Senders and Barber entered Door D, Stone and —
A John Lee.
Q — went out of Room X through Door B; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q When Barter and Senders got inside Room X they started to fight?
A No, sir, they said this fellow in here is sure messed up and they
came hack in here.
(DSrVESTIGAlING OFFICER: Let the record show Sanders and Barber said,
"These fellows in here are sure messed up," and then they went through
Door C into Room Y.)
Q What did they do then?
A They came in here, there was a fellow in there that had heen'
heat up and they said, "We ain't got nothing to do," and they came
on hack and the MP and everything was down there.
Q They were in here and they said they didn't have anything to do
and they came out of Door C and went in Room X. Didn't you see them
strike some of the fellows here next to the window?
A No, sir, I was standing on this side and after they left there
wasn't no one around and I could see them and when they got in here they
were standing up in here.
(BXIS)
•v, ^i*
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^-.
Keproduced at the National Arctin
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '"]1)^^'^'>
By^NARA Datei^^^ll^
29
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Q Who else did you observe go in Door A aa you stood over here
next to the door?
A I didn^t see anyone else.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Q
A
The only two you saw enter this door wece Sanders and Barter?
Y*8, sir.
Aay others?
Stone and Hamilton was here.
They bad gone in this way? : -
Yes, sir. V
Who else hesides those four?
Sanders and Barter.
Now, there were others, weren't there?
Yes, sir, there was a "bunch around there.
Do you know any of them? Think for a minute.
Sinonons and Wfilter Jackson.
Did you see Simmons?
He was standing in this door here, around this door here with
Nathaniel.
Q What ahout Freddie Simmons?
A At that time I didn't see him doing anything hut after he returned
he told me what happened that night in that area.
Q Did you see Jesse Sims down there that night? -;'
A I don't remember seeing him that night.
Q Sergeant Hurk, you say you saw him?
A Sergeant Hurk was all up and down this thing, going from one
room to another.
Q He wa43 one that was really hitting people? -.
A Well, I will be frank, I didn't see him hit anyone. He did have
a club.
Q Where were you standing when you first observed Sergeant Hurk
in Building 713/ were you standing around the huilding?
A 1 was in this room when he was ccHuing hack after these fellows.
-.-■ ^'- ■ ■>"
t: ^ T
911
'4':'.- n-k-
(ELLIS)
^^'
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "J 3^'^^'^
By^NARA Date '^^^\2IWl
Reproduced al ifie Nalionai Archn
•I
50
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Q After Stone, Hamilton, Barter, and Sanders entered Building 715
through Door A you saw Sergeant Hurk come in through the door?
A He came in here through Door A? '■
Q And through Door D? " '•
A No, sir, that is when I left. I left Door A and went around to
oheerre through the window that leads into Rochu Y.
Q Aa you stood there you didn't see Hark enter roam Y?
A No, sir, 1 didn't see him any more. It must have heen around
here somewhere^ I saw Sergeant Hurks in Boom X through Door D.
Q What kind of a weapon did he have in his hand?
A Sergeant Hurks?
Q Was it a hig club?
. A He had a club, kind of short.
Q Did you see Sergeant Hurks strike anyone with that club in
Building 715?
A Ho, sir, I didn't see him strike anyone.
Q William G. Jones, did you see him down there?
A When I first saw Jones he was standing on the outside.
Q Where in reference to the doors that lead into Building 715 did
you see William G. Jones?
A I would say to the right side of this door.
Q The right side of Door E? ^
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did Jones go as you ohserred him?
A He wa« walking aJLong.
Q He had a club?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of a cluh did Jones have?
A It was kind of slim like.
Q A a-hy-e?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was it a white cluT) they use for "butt can holders?
i" X
012
1
(ELLIS)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_2X3_^^l__
Reproduced at the National ArctM
.;.,»»-• -. «.
51
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:.^
A It was a 2-by-2, It didn't look irtilte.
Q It was a 2-"by-2?
k Yea, sir. '^
■ ■*•
Q Wbat was Jones doing all the time? I
A Just Vftlking around with it in bis hand. ^ ^^
Q Did you see him strilce any Itedians?
A No, sir,
Q Did you see him run after any of them?
A No, sir,
Q Did you see him reach through the window?
A No, sir.
Q Which door did he go in when he first entered the building? .
A I never did see him enter.
Q You never did see him go inside the huilding?
A Yes, sir.
Q How ahout Willie Prerost?
A I didn't see him,
Q You didn't see him down there that night?
A No, sir,
Q Joseph Scott, where did you see Joseph Scott?
A He is in the 6^1st, I don't rememiber seeing him.
Q If he was down there you don't know, you don't know Joseph
very well?
A Yes, sir, I know him. I don't remember seeing him. '
Q Elva Shelton, where was he when you first saw him in the
Italian Area?
A He must have been there, I don't remember seeing him, he could
have been there.
Q Samuel Snow, where did you first see Snow? He was the one
that got hit.
A I didn't see him imtll the next morning. ,
>■ :-£
913
■i^
(ELLIS)
•-*Mi^-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J-^^-^ ^
Reproduced at the National Archi
.^. -....-aWS. •■•*.- ■ •■i''
32
1
2
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Q You didn't see Mm tliat night?
A . No, sir.
Q You dldn*t see Mm In tlie Italian Area i^en he was hit?
A No, sir.
Q Leslie Stevart, where did you see Leslie Stewart In the Italian
Area on the night of August l*!-, 19l^4?
A No, sir, I didn't see him, but he told ae he had heen down there.
I didn't see him.
Q What did Leslie tell you he did while he was In the Italian Area
on the night of August Ik, 1944?
A He said when he got there ererythlng was Just ahout OTerj the
MP's were down there and there wasn't nothing for him to do and he cams
back.
Q Do you know Klchard Suttllff ?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Blchard down there In the Italian Area on the
night of August 14, 1944?
A No, sir.
Q Did you talk to Richard concerning his part in the fight?
A I asked him if he was down there during the time of the fight.
Q What was his reply?
A He said he was shooting dice, which they were when I left, they
were shooting dice, a bunch of men were.
Q Do you know Samuel Thomas?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you see Samuel?
A I don't know, sir, I nerer did remember seeing Samuel. They
slept in the barracks on the hill.
Q You didn't see Samuel, as you recall, in the Italian Area on
the night of the l4th of August?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see Joe Trice?
A I Just remember him since I hare been in the stockade.
914
.J';,
(ELLIS)
.. I.
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_2X2__^2£__
By^NARA Date^P^I^/^Z
Keproaucea al the National Arch.
,»»i.".iiiata.-»i>i«i--"
35
#I^OQMf=^BE hitliiAL ^
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39i
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45
» *
Q Since you have seen him In the stockade, do you remeniber seeing
that same face In the Italian Area on the night of the l4th of August 19kk1
A No, sir, I don't remember seeing him.
Q Arthur Williams, did you see him? ■ ^
A I am not sure, I think he was cutting hair at that time, I am not
for sure. .
Q Do you know Wallace Wooden? ■
A When I seen Wallace ve was coming out of the area. -'
Q Is that the first time you saw him? . '
A Yes, sir.
Q Where in the Italian Area did you see Wallace and what conversation
did you have with him concerning his part in the fight?
A I first saw him at the end of Building 709 as we were celling
out of the area. .- ^
Q What conversation did you have with Wallace concerning his part
in the fight?
A I didn't say anything to him because scxne of the men were
coming out of the area and I txever did say anything to him, we Just came
out.
Q What did Wallace have in his hand when you first saw him?
A I couldn't tell because the light was knocked out on the front
of the barracks. The only way I could see, there was an MP arotmd there
with a light and they shined it on Wallace and he had a stick in his hand.
Q Did you have any further conversation with Wallace on the
night of the iHh of August?
A No, sir.
Q Then you didn't talk to him as you and he departed the Italian
Area?
A He didn't come tack with us, he went hy himself. I could see
the MP, you know, telling them to get back to his barracks, the MP was
telling them to get back to their barracks and he was Just standing up
there, then I left emd went on £ind he came behind me euad I didn't talk
to him.
Q William D. Montgomery, do you know him?
A No, sir, I don't know him, but I have met him since.
M'-'^
015
(ELLIS)
#■
F
i^'
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^/^ -^C33
Reproduced at the National Arclii
.i4(t**6«,..*: .^jiK* >(■> •
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Q
% :: ^
Q
A
Q
. A
Q
A
him?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
vrillle Basden, where did you first see Willie?
I don't remember seeing Willie, ,-> > v-
Do you know Willie Baaden? - ;>i^ :
Yes, sir, he Is kind of a short fellow.
But you didn't see him on this night? v "^
No, sir. ^ ...
On the night of August l^i-, 19^, did you know Willie?
Yes, sir, I knew him.
Had you seen Willie In the Italian i\rea you would have recognized
If I had seen him I would have.
>-■-
You state you didn't see Willie?
No, sir.
Thomas Battle, do you know Xhomas?
No, sir.
Milton Bratton?
No, sir.
'.S-.
Sergeant John S. Brown frcM the 578th, do you know John?
No, sir. That Is the first time I seen him was out here.
You didn't know John S. Brown on the night of the iHhcf August?
No, sir.
Johimle Ceaser?
Yes, sir, I know him.
Where did you first see Johnnie?
I don't remember seeing Johnnie Ceaser, he might have "been
there, but I didn't see him.
Q You didn't see Ceaser standing talking to King t^en King was
talking to someone down there, didn't you see Ceaser there?
A I don't know, sir, I can't place him right now.*
Q If you saw Ceaser you certainly would rememher him?
A I know him well, ~^
916
(EtXIS)
'■^.mi
;-W 'i-
■V ::'i'- A!^>'S:
m v.ia»,_-i<^-/.
^^7 ■,;<»;'-':-
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DECLASSIFIED
Authority JXl_Sl? ^
By^NARA Date^fe^'^^<^Z
Reproduced at ihe National Arctiiv
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45
Q You don*t remember seeing him?
A No, sir.
Q James Chandler, do you remember him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do 70U remember seeing him?
A No, sir I didn't see him.
Q You didn't see him?
A No, sir,
Q You state definitely you didn't see him?
A Yes, sir, I state definitely I don't remember seeing him, he
could have heen there, there was a hunch of fellows.
A
Q
A
Larkin.
Q
A
Alvin Clark, do you know him?
Yes, sir.
Did you see Alvin down there that night?
Let's see — He went down early in the fight, he and Luther
He went with Alvin when the fight first started?
Yes, sir.
Q Did you observe what instrument or oluh Luther and Alvin
took with them?
A Yes, sir.
Q They had cluhs?
A 1 don't rememher seeing them with anything.
Q You saw them leave the vicinity of Building 7OO, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they took some club with them hut you don't know what it was?
A I don't rememher seeing them do anything hut I did see them.
Q Larkin, where did you f UJOt see Larkin after he entered the
Italian Area?
A I don't remember seeing Larkin in that area. When I first
seen Larkin he came upstairs and he told about the Italians Jumpli^ on
him and he was hunting a whistle.
w.
017
(ELLIS)
M-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^ ] 1) -^C3 >
KeprotJuced at tue National Arcniv
.j«c<.t. >-.•-
3l*x 36
»-Vr ■ ifc.
' 1
2
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45
Q
Did he find the whistle?
Yes, sir.
'-- ^'
Q Did he go outside?
A He was about half way down the stairway steps.
Q Did he go outside the tulldlng? y > ^
A Yes, sir. x '■'■*' X y''
Q Did you later hear a whistle blow outside? ;,
A Yes, sir. • L
Q Then you went outside?
A Later on I went out.
Q Did you see Larkin there at that time?
A No, sir.
«
Q When did you see Larkin and Clark go into the area?
A I seen Clark down there in the area and I think it was at this
front end of the building I first saw Clark near the f r^nt end of Building
715.
Q What was he doing?
A He come mnnlng out of the orderly room and when he rvin out he
fell and some fellows, you know, colored boys, picked him up and he was
hit.
Q Someone hit Clark sis he ran out of Building 715?
A I didn't see anyone hit him.
Q He had been inside the building fighting?
A Yes, sir, I imagine he had. I didn't see him, but he ran out.
Q While Clark was inside the building there was fighting inside
the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q Wasn't there a lot of screaming going on inside the building at
that time?
A Screaming?
Q Yes, people being hit and hollering?
A Yes, sir, there was some hollering going on. ,
'.^
(ELLIS)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority JX2__^ '^
By^NARA Date'^P^I^/^Z
Reproduced a! the National Archu
.■*itiMi6i ■ «trt'
57
ftrOWfTT^r^s^^^
M^,:
4t
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45
Q Vfhat kind of a club did Clark have In his hand when he came out
of the huilding? -v
A I didn't see him hare anything when ho ran out.
Q When he went in what did he have? .^\ -
A I don't "believe I saw him. ,;
Q But when the fight started in Boom X Clark entered through •*
Door A and went into the room?
A But he didn't stay there long, he came out.
Q When you saw Clark run into the building the first time, what
kind of a club did he have in his hand?
A There was a fence in front of the barracks when I got there
auid the fence was gone. I am not for sure they had torn up the fence,
but anyway —
Q All I want you to tell me is what Clark had in his hand when he
went in that building, just that one little thing.
A He had a stick, kind of flat like.
Q A flat hoard?
A Yes, sir.
Q When he went in the huilding he didn't stay very long?
A No, sir.
Q He came hack and as he departed he fell?
A Yes, air.
Q Did anyone go to him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who went to help Clark?
A Let me see — I don't know exactly. ^
Q You should know some of the fellows that went up and helped carry
him out. Did you help carry him out?
A No, sir.
up?
Q . When Clark fell you say some fellows went around and picked him
A Yes, sir.
Q About how many?
-Si:.
(Ellis)
w
DECLASSIFIED
Authority J J-^^^'>
Bv^3PnaRA Date^fe^l^/OZ
Keproduced a! me National Archiv
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A Three or something like that. ' V
Q Wae one of them Fired Brown? ;
A I don*t knov Fred Broim. ;~ ^
Q Ira Llnten? '
A I don't know him eo well. ^ j
Q Blley EucknerT Wae he one of the "bojB that helped?
A Tee, elr. . '
Q Elley Buckner was one of the hoys that helped carry Clark?
A Tee, sir,
Q Where was Biley standing when you first saw him?
A He' was on the tack when Clark came out.
Q Biley Buckner and others were standing on the north side
of Building 713^ were ^ey?
A Yes, sir, there was some more around there.
Q Who were the others standing on that side of the huilding
hesldes Buckner?
A I don't know, I never did cone around. Biley was standing
here and he cam out when Clark fell.
Q Vho else came up hesides Buckner?
A Some more fellows, I don*t know.
Q You saw a tunch of toys that stood on the north side of the
hulldlng and looked in through a windov and you can't name a single one of
them?
A I didn't go around on this side. C-
Q ThB only one you saw that you knew was Biley Buckner who came
to assist Clark?
A Yes, sir. There was some more men came out, tut I don't know
them.
Q The people standing on the north side of the hulldlng didn't
remain stationary, they c«me around the tullding where you could see them?
A I don't know any of them if they did.
Q Do you know Willie Curry?
A Ho, sir, I don't know Willie Curry.
320
.S.'"
I- -
V; . <■
"■#v-. •*,
(SLLIS)
■-i! ^-i'
w-
rt -r
DECLASSIFIED
Authority JXXlSl:
/^3
By^:^PNARA Date^^^l^/<^Z
Kepfoduced at ttie National Arciw
.*Si«S<-*-'*^^ «* ■-'■^
59
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Q Do 70a knov Boy DaTBOud? - ^'
A Yes, sir. ^ j
Q Wh«r« did you first see Boy?
A I don't reaeBiber seeing Boy, be could have teen there, tut I don't
renBKber seeing hlB.
Q You didn't see Boy Dayaond In the Italian Area on the night of
August iHhT
A Ho, Sir.
Q Lee Dixon, do you knov hlM?
A Tee, sir.
Q Where did you see his?
A I didn't see hla down there.
Q Herman Gentry, do you Icnoir hint
A Not so veil.
Q Did you see hlai dovn there?
A Ho, sir.
Q
stockade?
A Yes, sir.
You have only known hl» since yon hare teen placed In the
Q Sergeant Bennett, do you knov Sergeant Bennett vho runs the ^ySth
mess hall?
A I don't know hl«. '
Q Do you knov Corporal NcDanlels?
A No, sir.
Q On the night of August ll^th vhen you vere in the PI drinking
teer, do you knov vhere the tvo colored MP's were that vere on duty In
the PX? To refresh your recollection one was Sergeant McGlnnls and
the other vas Oran Lee?
A I don't knov then.
Q Did you obeerre them In the PX?
A Yes, sir, I reaember seeing then, the tvo colored MP's In the PX.
I don't knov tbev.
Q Did you, after ohserrlng then In the PX, later that night see them
A'
921
(ELLIS)
..*:^:^-^-**^^;J
f^.'
fr
DECLASSIFIED
Authority J J-^^^^
Keproaucea at the National Archi
.' >to»J»»a«»'('»**-^--'^'
fe:.
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ko
in th» Italian Area? ^ > '% *
A Ho, air. '■: ^
Q Vhen jovl vera in the Italian Area on the nl^ht of Aoguet iHh
did you aaa any colored MP 'a other than John Plnckney?
A Ho, air. t,
Q You didn't aee any other MP 'a other than John Plnokney In the
Italian Area?
A Ho, air.
Q Going tack to Sergeant Hurka In the Italian Area, vaa he doing
anything to keep the colored boya froa fighting?
A I didn't aee him, he may hare heen.
Q He aeened to "be one of the partlclpanta In the fight?
A Yea, air,
« ■
Q In these gronpa of soldiera you aav around the area, you aald
many of them had cluta and sticks in their handa. Do you recall
aeelng any Indlrldual vlth a rope in hia hand?
A Ho, air, I didn't aee anyone vith a rope.
Q When you f Irat aav Luther Larkln you aay it vaa right hef ore the
fight atarted?
A Yea, air. ,;
Q Vaa Vllllam G. Jonea vlth him?
A Yes, sir. I didn't see Vllllam G. Jonea vhen he came iqpatalra.
He aaked for a vhlatle.
Q Vho aaked for a vhlatle?
A Larkln. He aaked for a i^latle, he aaked vho had a idiiatle and
didn't no one aay anything, aomeone orer there vaa ahootlng dice and
aome one said, "Vhat the hell do you vant vith a vhlatle?" He said,
"^Ihese Italians Jumped our hoy a." He atood around dovnatalra and came
hack half-vay up the atair steps and he hlev the vhlatle.
Q Did he hlov it Inalde?
A Dovn on the ataiirvay atepa.
Q Did any of thoae fellova get up out of the crap game vhen he hleV
the vhlatle?
A Ho, air, didn't any of them. I didn't aee any of then gire up their
ahootlng dice.
922
(XLLIS)
■^: ^
■'--■■ M: -:jf
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "'j'^^^^^
Bv^IPnARA Date^fc^l^/OZ
Keproaucea at tfie National Arch
r'<im»»>Av f/tlusiiK'^-^.
m
kl
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Q Did you hear anybodj ruanlng through the harraeks hollering,
"Com on, let*B get thoee Italians?"
A Sone of then sajre, "Who Is the nan he hit?" and a hunch Jtoiped
iqp and they iwnt out.
Q Did you hear any one man running through the harracks hollering,
"Cone on, let's go," and trying to turn the vhole coHpaay outT
A Tea, sir, there vas lots of hollering, hut I oaa't identify any
of them, there was Just a crowd of them in the harracks all talking.
Q Do you know Bussell Sills?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you first see fiussell in the Italian Area on the night
of August lUh in this building?
A He was the fellow that was wennd.here.
Q He was the fourth man?
A He was around lathanlel, Walter Jackson, and Freddie Lee Simmons.
He is the fourth man that I couldn't give a moment ago that stood in the
semi-circle around Door B.
Q
Door B?
A
Q
A
What club did Bussell Ellis hare in his hand as he stood near
Kind of long, ahout this long.
Was it a 2-hy-2, a small narrow hoard that wasn't painted?
No, sir, it didn't look like it was.
Q Did you see Bussell after he left the Tleinlty of Door E?
A No, sir, I left from there and came around here and I didn't
see him any more until I came hack to the harracks.
Q After you got hack to the harracks you knew Bussell had been
in the Italian Airea because you saw him down there?
A Tes, I knew he weren't down there for nothing.
Q After you entered the Italian Area on the night of August lit-,
19M^/ did you see any Italian soldiers Jump ff cm the window of Building
709T
A
Ho, sir, I did not.
Q While you were in the Italian Area, did you see any colored
soldiers leading or dragging an Italian across the area toward the wooded
patch behind the chapel?
■■•«■
"^■^^
323
(ELLIS)
^' *? A
%^
A: '-i,.
^
w
^'^-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^j3^^^^
Bv^3PnarA Date ^i>^\2l<^l
riepiuuuuttu di iiie I'^aiionai «rcn
.^...v^>..lit^
.h
,*.: - s._-^^ .••.I'.- -««:.-
*i
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lie
Ho. Sir.
■#
Q But you didn't sea any colored soldiers leading any Italian
tovajrd the voods on the ni^t of August iHh^ Ipl^T
A I didn't see them leading any.
Q Tou sav then chasing one?
A I sav then ehafeiing one that oaae tram, this "building here^ I sav
hin c<«ing frai this Barraolcs 708, I sav one nan running out of Barracks 708
and was heing chased hy tvo colored soldiers.
'M
Q
A
In vhat direction did they chafee him?
They come around this harraoks here.
^,- -4-.
Q From the south side they ran around the vest end and in hetveen
Building 708 and 709?
A Tea, sir. I vas coming down this Lavton Bead vhen I sav it and
vhen I got to the hack of the Barracks 708 I didn't see anyone at that
time, I didn't see those tvo running.
Q Do you recall hov the Italian vas dressed that vas helng chased
hy the tvo colored soldiers?
A Yes, sir. This one did not hare on anything, he didn't hare on
no clothes, nothing hut undervear.
'- ['y .It' . *>
tl He appeared to he veering a pair of shorts?
iu Yes, sir.
^ And a shirt?
A, Just an undershirt. . I;*-.
Q Shorts and an undershirt? v" :>
3^ A Yes, sir, he vas dressed in undervear.
Q Did you see him after he vent hehind hidlding 708 and in hetveen
708 add 709? ^ - >^ -- ;
A HO, sir, I didn't see him.
Q Wiere did you go after you sav him helng chased?
A I cane down to this area here.
Q Did you hear any screaming or hogging in hetveen 708 and 709 &s you
passed hetveen those tvo huildings?
A lo, sir. ;j, --- :■--:■■ *. 7
^
■i ^ %-^'k-r ,^:
W: ^
024
(SLXIS)
?y
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J-^^^^
Keproduced at the National Arclii
uVwiiiitow<»iiifcSifa»^'"-
A4!!*>i ,
^3
■- .i^'^ ^:%'S^
-*■
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Q Do 70a knov vhetlwr th» colored soldiers that were chasing the
Italian erer caught him? "J •
A Wot fii^f I reallj don*tj^ sir.
Q Can 70a descrllM the colored soldiers chasing the Italians?
A It seeaed like tvo smaller fellovs, I can't recognize them enough
to call their nsmes^ hut this was a little fellow, he seemed to he.
W
'.'.'^'
:■■*
■>:'
^4. ,
Q Ton don*t knov vhc the7 were?
A Ho, sir.
Q ]>on't 70a knov, reall7T
A Mq, sir. It vas dark.
Q He vas out ahead of them?
A Yes, sir, hut the7 vas running hehlnd him.
Q Were the7 throwing at him?
A lo, sir, the7 had sticks In their hands. ■*
Q Vas the Italian sa7lng anTthlng?
A lo, sir, he vas ^ust running.
Q Sid 70U later leam vho It vas from the fellovs, 1^0 vas chasing
the Italian?
A Mo, sir, I don't knov vho they^Trere.
A
Q
again?
A
Tou don't knov their names? v '
Ho, sir. ■■--"" f.\
You don't knov vhether 70U could ldentlf7 thm If 70a sav them
Ho, sir. If I could I would, : .< >v
Q After 70U returned from the Italian /brea and vent Into 70ur
harraoks, did 70U see Sergeant Hurks In that harraoks?
A Yes, sir. .
Q Were 7on present vhen Sergeant Hurks vas conrerslng vlth tvo
MP's conceding the riot that Just happened?
A Yes, sir. ' ^ \ "'' '
Q What vas the conversation 70U heard Sergeant Hurks hare vlth the
tvo MP's?
A B» vas telling the MP's the7 had glren the Italians a good vhlpplng.
'■?'
m ~*.
";'^-,^.^, 3^ .•.v-''*r
925.
(ELLIS)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J-^^-^^
By^^NARA Date '^0^1^ /'^Z
Keproaucea at me National Arch
^3Kk^«lte>Mift^ ^-^- -i*^:*^
hk
#1
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■ '.'■.■■ ■ ■ ' t' ' '
Q Vhat vas the reply the MP's nade to that stateaent of Sergeaat
Enrka'T
A They said, "You done a daam good J oh and Bared us a Joh."
Q Do 70a laaxnr, or hare you seen those MP's that vera talking at
the entrance of Barracks 719 to Sergeant HurksT
A No, sir. Sergeant Hurks and the tvo MP*b vere In a Jeep In
front of the harracks.
Q Coold Ton Identify either of the MP's If you sav them again?
A No, sir, I couldn't tell moch ahout them because they vaA vlttlng
In the Jeep and Sergeant Hurks was standing In the front door hy thea.
Q Do you know Prirate Lonax of the MP's?
A lo, sir, I don't knov any MP.
Q Did you see the MP's close enough to determine vfaether one of them
had Bldehums?
A Ho, sir. It wouldn't cone down more than right down there.
Q Do you know the rank of the MP's that were conrerslng with
Sergeant Hurks In the rlclnlty of Building 719?
A I am not for sure, I didn't see anyone hare any kind of a stripes.
Q In what kind of a vehicle were the MP's riding?
A In a Jeep.
Q Therv were only two of them In the Jeep?
A Yes, sir.
Q IB there any further description, whether I have asked you or not,
you can give me concerning these two MP's that were conrerslng with Sergeant
HurkB near Building 719?
A No more than how they were dressed.
Q All the MP's wear the same uniform. Is there any other description,
his Tolce or anything?
A They didn't hare heavy yolces.
Q Did they hare guns, did you notice that?
A They Just had clubs, those two.
Q Did they Bay where they had been during the riot?
A No, sir, they never did say It.
M n
. 'J
(SLLIS)
mM
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^'j'} ^03 3
By^3pNARADate^0^i:!/OZ
Keproaucea ai tne rvaiionai flrcnn
»^5
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Q ¥•)(« thfvy eolored or vhlt« MP'sT
A White MP*e, Bir.
Q After yon retnmed from the Italian Area and vent to your roon
In Building 719, did you at that tliM ohsexTe this dice gase atlll going
on? '' y.:-' i ' 'I.
A Voj sir, I didn't see aoj dioe gaae going on at that tlae.
Q The gaae you preriously ohserred in Building 719 had, upon your
return to the huilding, ceased?
A Tes, sir, it had.
Q Did you see any of the pairtioipants of that dice gaae in
Building 719 after you rettimed there?
A Tes, sir, I sav Bichard Suttliff and he vas dovnstairs.
Q Vhat vas Bichard doing vhen you sav hlM?
A Just standing hack and looking. ^ v
Q Did bs say he had been in the fight? ^ -^
A Ho, sir. " "^' ^
Q After you sav Bichard, vho else did yon obserre?
A Willie Scott, he vas in vhen I left, he vas running the game
and vhen the fight vas oyer Scott said, '*Let me out, I got to go to
my barracks," and he vent out. The fight vas orer then.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Who did he tell to let him out so he could go to his barracks?
A bunch of boys crovded in the door.
Ho guards vers put on the doors of 719?
No, sir.
Did you see Sinums?
Yes, sir, I seen him before I left, \
Ton didn't see him after you returned?
Ho, sir, I don't remember seeing him.
Did you see Jackson?
Wsdter Jackson?
Willie Jackson?
I don't beliere I knov him.
"I'.'v •
.n-'
*^
9-27
(ILLIS)
■4^' vr''. ''j'-
.^^-^'■■■'»fr■-'*'^
j.-.'«i*r--yBfei->,v-rf,- t^-v(fr
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J-^^-'>'>
Bv^IPnARA Date^P^I^/^Z
Keproaucea at me isiaiionai Arcfiiv
-> -. -'■ ^^: . viUiife-^ ■ "^ V- '^^
1^
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Q Henry Jupiter, did you see him?
A Yes, sir, he vas playing "before I left.
Q Did you see him vhen you returned to the harracke?
A Ho, 8lr, I nerer did see him.
Q If ve established that the fight or the riot vas OTer "between
11:1^^ and 12 0* clock, i^iat time vould you say It vas that you returned
to your harra^ksT
A Sir, vhen I returned to ay harracks therecvas still lots of them
In the area.
Q When you left the area the fight vas orer In the orderly room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Hov much time elapsed then until you returned to your harracks?
A About ^ minutes.
Q After the fight vas over and you left the area, you vould estimate
you arrived at your harracks ^ minutes later?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you definitely state there vasn't any poker gaiis or crap
game going on In Building 719 yAen you returned?
A Not upstairs. I didn't go In dovnstalrs, I vent upstairs and
I didn't see anyone gambling.
Q Is there anything else or any other Information you vould like
to add to your testimony?
A Kot that I remeniber right nov. Of course. If anything comes
In my memory I vlll notify you.
'^. .i».
.rf,,.
(ELLIS) (EHD)
■h
<^b
1
> t*"
DECLASSinED
Authority Y^S^f^k^——
By^NARA Date/:^ig:25'
"■dr. - ..T^Tf"-',"
«
^■^ ^x.>x».*frV,';»»*^'Jii?^*^---^'-
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Further testimoDj of Pfc. John H* Plndnaey, tak»n
at Seattle, Vashltigton on 26 September 19^1^ hj Lieut.
Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The vitness vas reminded he vas still under oath and
of his rights as a vitness under the 2Hh Article of War.
Q When you left your harracks on the night of August iHh, 19'*^
with your hraesard and MP club, you irent directly to the Ticinity of
Building 700, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you arrlTed at Building 700, vhat was happening there?
A The colored men were standing out in the area, the 700 area,
arguing and discussing ahout the Italians that hit one of the colored
hoys and the ones that — '
Q Didn't those hoys up around Building 700 say they were going down
and kill those Italians?
A I don't recall whether those words were spoken, hut something
on that order.
Q Were the words you heard used the strongest words used up there
among the people in the vicinity of Building 700?
A "Let's go down and hring those God damn Italians out of there."
Q Now, John, when you arrived at Building 700, there was already
a fight going on in that Italian Area, some of the hoys had gone into that
area? ,
A Yes, sir,
Q You could hear the fighting going on down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know approximately how long it had heen going on when
you got to the vicinity of Building 700?
A No, sir.
Q When you left your barracks, could you hear rocks heing thrown
against the "buildings in that area?
A No, sir, all I heard was a loud noise and when I got in the
vicinity of Building 700 then I could hear the rocks helng thrown and
glass heing broken in the Italian Area.
V-'\
(fINfKHEY)
r^
«te
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^] "3 ^^^ -^
Bv^IPnARA Date^fc^'^/^Z
Reproduced at the National Arclw
i>itlk>',iadEK.<
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Q You could hear glasB 'being broken in the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the first thing you heard vhen you were hanging out your
clothes vas this fence helng torn down around Building 7007
A I vasn't hanging any clothes out, I vas In the barracks and
after I got jjy clothes on I vent to the orderly rocai of the 650th Port
CoKpaay and then proceeded to the rlclnlty oS Building 700.
Q Hov long did you remain around Building 7OO before the MP*s
arrlTed?
A Approximately 2 or 3 seconds, I had no more than got to the
area before tl» MP»b got there. , "
Q Who did you hear couTersing or talking concerning their going
dovn into the Italian Area and bring the Italians out?
A Just a vhole bunch of men.
Q Definitely, vho said it? ^ ^
A I couldn't say definitely, sir, because I don't knov Just vho'
it vas that said it.
Q You don't remember vho it vas? ',
A No, sir.
Q You can't think: of one of them?
A The only thing I remeober definitely, those vords vere spoken,
but to point out one certain man, I can't do that.
Q Hov many, approximately, of those vhom you sav around Building 7OO
latere vent dovn into the area?
A I thin); I stated before, sir, that Just the vhite MP's and
myself vere the only ones that proceeded dovn into the area, after ve
stopped that bunch of men in the TielAlty of Building 7OO the vhite MP's
and myself vere the only ones that vent into Idie area. >
Q They vent then? i .
A Yes, sir.
Q Hov many after you got there did you see vho you had prerlously
seen around Building 700?
A I couldn't say vhether Wallace Wooden vas there.
Q Eobert Barber?
A No, sir, he vas in the orderly rocm, I don't knov, I don't
think he vas up there.
sm^
(pincksey)
^:
w .
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J-^^^^
By 53PnaRA Date^fe^'^/OZ
Keproaucea at tne National Archiv
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Q Hov about Lutlwr Larkln^ was he in the orderly roon vheti you vere
there or did he follow you down there? ^ ^ . „ ^.
A Ho, sir, he dlda't follow us down there. ^7 ?
Q He was already there?
A He nay hare heen.
'£
Q You didn't see him?
A When I eaw him It was shortly after I had. gotten Into the MP
Jeep and had oane hack up on the road, then I saw him. He was taking
Boaeone over to one of the barracks.
Q So#B wounded fellow? -
A I cannot say — he wasn't wotmded.
Q Why was he taking him orer there?
A I cannot say, he was in Building 7^9 bxhI then they were coning up
the sidewalk and I didn't see whether Luther Larkln was down in the area
or not, he could hare heen.
Q Did you talk to him when he was taking this fellow from 719
across the street? Sid you talk to Luther?
A I am not for sure, it looked like I-- Yes, sir, I did.
Q What did you talk to Luther about, ahout the fight?
A No, I asked him, if I am not mistaken, where he was going to take
this fellow and he said he was going to take him orer to his barracks, he
was scared or something.
Q
A
Do you remember who the man was that he was taking over there?
Ho,
sir, I don't.
Q It was a member of your company, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir. See, Colonel, there was a bunch of new men that had
been transferred to the 650th.
Q These fellows came from Hew Orleans?
A I don't know where they came from.
Q There was a lot of them you didn't know?
A Yes, sir.
Q Hare you seen that man Larkln was taking out since that time?
A I can't say whether I have or not, it was dark and too hard to
identify anyone.
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Q Yon Imnedlately recogalzed Larkln and it looks like if jou koev
th0 other fellov you vould ta&ye recogalzed him.
* A The reason I recogalzed Larkla^ he called my name and I called
my attentloa to hla, hut I can*t recall vho that fellovwvas.
Q Well, try and think vho it was hecause ve vould like to koov vhere
he vas going and vhy he vae bo scared.
A I don't recall.
Q
fellovT
A
Q
BuntansT
A
Q
A
What kind of a looking fellov vas he? Vas he a small or a large
He vas of medium huild.
TbB clothes he had on, do you remember if they vere fatigues or
I don't recall vhat he had on. ^^ ^
HaTen't you heard his first name? r . '
No, sir, in fact, if I recall correctly, I don't think there was
any names called.
Q Haren't you heard his naae since that time?
A No, sir, not that I knov of.
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Q Larkin vas taking him up to the hlack harraoks so he tmdouhtedly
lived in that area.
A2 More than likely, yes, sir,
Q Did Larkin say he had heen hit?
A No, sir, I don't think so.
Q What did he say, he vas scared? = 't
A He mentioned he vas scared. ^^^
Q Did he mention vhy he vas scared?
A Ho, sir, he didn't. * ■/
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Q Did he say he had heen in the fight?
A I don't knov vhether he had heen In the fight or mot.
Q Did Larkin mention he had heen and vas trying to get this fellov
hack up there?
A Ho, sir, I don't think those vords vere mentioned. ;
Q Larkin didn't mention he had heen in the fight?
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A
No, Blr, I dcm*t think so.
Q Did Larkln mention to you that he had "beat the hell out of those
Italians or something like that?
A Aa near as I receJ.1 those vords vasn't spoken. That MP I vas
rldi^Se with, he and I vere riding together all the time and when Larkln
spoke to me the MP and I, ve vere still sitting In the car.
Q Lomax was the one you rode with? ^ ' ;- "
A Sir, I don*t know who he was, -^
Q Did Lomaz, while 70a were In the Jeep^ hare some conversation
with some other hoys around the door of Building 7I9? Didn't you stop
and talk to them? ^ j v
A Yes, air.
Q Vasn*t Hurks talking toLomai? You know Harks?
A Yes, sir, /
Q Dldn*t he caas out and talk to Looai "by Building 719 and Hurks
said they had heaten the hell out of the Italians and Lcmax replied that
they did a good Joh, that the white MP's were going to have to do it,
or something like that?
A I don't recall, elr.
Q Well, you woiildn't say It wasn't said?
A Ho, sir, I wouldn't say It vasn't said and. I wouldn't say it was
said.
Q If it was said you don't recall it; is that It?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you heard Lomax talking to Hurks?
A I heard Lomax talking, whether it was Hurks I couldn't say.
Q You heafd him talking in front of the ioar to Building 719? "
A Yes, sir.
Q And you heard all the conversation ahout the fl^t hecause wasn't
that what Lomax and Hurks were talking about?
A Whether it was Hurks or not I couldn't say, "but there was someone
there on the door and what conversation was passed on, I don't recall
at the present time.
Q But Lomax was talking to seme noncommissioned officer In i front
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(pinokney) r
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Of Building 719?
A I think It waa, yes, sir, a noncommissioned officer.
Q Weisn't It Hiirkeu he was talking to?
A I cannot say definitely.
Q Tou have an idea whtther It was Hurks, you knov him well enough
to remenber whether he was standing there?
A Yes, sir.
719?
Q
A
Q
But whether It was Hurks or not you cannot say?
I cannot say definitely.
But you recall there was a conversation in front of Building
Yes, sir, all 1 know there was a oonyersatlon going on.
Q Between Lomax and some nonconmlssloned officer in front of
Building 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you and the two MP*8 left the vicinity of Building 700, you
went down Lawton Eoad going toward Building 713?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you arrived in the Italian Area and "before you got into
the huilding, who did you first see in that area you recognized?
A I went down Lawton Road.
Q Who did you first see after you passed that "building right there?
A We had proceeded down to Building 713 "because there were soldiers
up in this area. Building 708 and 709, and I couldn't recall who they
were, "but when we airived in here. Building 713 > th^re were two men
standing on the outside.
Q Whom you recognized?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were they?
A Wallace Wooden and Frank Hughes.
Q Wallace Wooden and Frank Hughes were standing outside the "building?
A Yes, sir.
Q On what side of the door was Wooden and Hughes standing?
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they?
A The left-hand side. f ; . >. -
Q And Frank and Wallace hotji had blubs In their hands, didn't
I can£tv say vhat they had. '^^"•
Q What vere they doing ae you eav them standing on the left hand
side of the door of Building 71?^
A It looked like they vere standing up talking or looking,
I can't say which.
Q As you approached Building 713 there vas a lot of fighting
going on Inside? ^ ,., -- .
A Yes, sir. ^'
Q There was a fight going on outside too wasn't there? Over
in this area here?
A Orer "by the tents, I imagine it was.
Q When you were going in this huilding you sav Wooden and Hughes
on the left side—
A As I forestated, when w© were entering Building 715, we single
filed in, which is on the outside hy those tents and there was a lot of
talk and cussing going on, hut I couldn't say definitely whether there
was a fight going on.
Q As you went in and heard the cussing and talking in the vicinity
of the hullding, did you recognize any voices you heard out there?
A I cannot say.
Q You wouldn't say you didn't recognize some of the voices?
A No, sir.
Q You know the hoys well enough that you can tell the voice of ^
the sergeant or the corporal of the squad and you were undoubtedly
getting some of that conversation, weren't you?
A I don't recall whether or not there was any fighting going
on outside, but there vas a lot of cussing and voices. I can't distinguish
the voices well enough to identify a person.
Q Then if you coiildn't distingush the voices, do you think you know
who was out there?
A No, sir.
Q Had this tent heen hroken down when you arrived?
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A I caouot say for sure. '. '^- . *
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Q You didn't ol>BerTB the tent as you went in?
A Ho, sir. \
Q Was a Jeep sitting in front of the tent when you arrired there?
A I cannot say.
Q Was there a car covered with a sheet there?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you didn't see a Jeep sitting there? '^
A Uo, sir,
Q Did you ohserre anyone on the right side of the door as you went
in that you knew?
A There were men there hut I didn't see their faces and I don't
know who they were.
Q On the outside of the huilding the only two individuals you
observed was Wallace Wooden and Frank Hughes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then you went into the huilding?
A Yes, sir.
Q As you entered the door and went into the room, who was the
first group you remeisber there?
A The only one I saw was those Italians wounded laying on the
floor.
Q
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Q
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Q
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That is Bo<M Z?
Yes, sir.
Aren't there any colored soldiers in Boom Z?
Ho, sir.
Vtore there any standing in the door as you went in?
Yes, sir.
Q And sls you went in some fellow hit at you and missed you and
hit one of the other "boys in hack of you?
A He didn't swing at me.
Q You perhaps had passed him and didn't see him.
33G
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A I WB8 the third one In the door,
Q He svung and hit the next fellow, as the teetimony vlll show.'
Who was the fellow that swung or who was standing in a position so he
could swing at somebody?
A I cannot say.
Q Dldn*t you see the people gathered around the door trying to
push you away?
A I think if I recall I stated we went in single file.
Q You had to "because there were so many "boys that you couldn't
go in any other way. Who did you see around the door that you knew
besides Wooden and Hughes?
A I can't say.
Q You don't remeniber one of them?
A I think I stated before it was dark and I don't recall any faces.
Q Don't you remember seeing Hamilton?
A Which Hamilton?
Q John Lee Hamilton, didn't you see him in that door?
A Ho, sir.
Q Didn't you see Spencer theire standing inside that door?
A Ho, sir.
Q Eobert Ellis?
A I think if you asked the MP there wasn't anyone standing in the
doorway beyond that little bunch there at 715 at that landing.
Q Let's get this straight. You got passed the landing and was
going in the door and there was a boy inside that swung as you came
in—
A I don't recall anyone, therenasn't aj^yone swung at us when we
were inside of that building.
Q Then you saw no one in Boom Z7
A No, sir.
Q After you entered Room X, the big room where you saw the Italians
wounded, you saw a bunch of colored fellows in there. Who did you first
observe you knew after entering the big roaa?
A Robert Barber,
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Q Eotert or BlchardT ' «
A Richard Barter,
Q What was Richard doing when you first sav himt
A He waa standing up with a rock or a cluh or a knife in his
hand. What it vas I don»t recall, the weapon.
Q
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Barher?
A
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Was he talking to soneone?
I don't knov if he was talking to anyone or not.
That is the first fellow you ohserved there?
Tes, sir.
Who was with Richard?
I think I said there wasn't no one with Richard,
Let's forget what you said hefore. You definitely saw Richard
Tes, sir.
With Richard you say there was no one?
Yes, sir.
Q Who else was in the room?
A I said there was a hunch of men in there "but I couldn't
recognize any of them "because I didn't know them, hut there were a hunch
of men in the room when we came in and they fled out the windows and
doors? ;»
Q You definitely saw Richard?
A Yes, sir,
Q After you ohserred him irtio else did you ohserre secondly?
A I said I saw some men, I don't recall who they were hecause
I don't know them,
Q You mean all those fellows in the hig room were people you
didn't know? Of course, you know all the old men in the 650th and
651st?
A All the 650th. Tery little dealings I had with the 651st.
Colonel, there is 5 or 4 different coflQ)anies around there,
Q There are the 650th, the 651st, and the 578th,
A Yes, sir, it is hard to rememiber the names of the hoys.
I.
_938
(pdjckhey)
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Q The thing ^hat strikes ms as "bislng peculiar Is this; The MP*8
vent vlth you and they didn't knov any of those fellows and you come along
and the first three fellovs you sav you recognized^ Wooden, Hughes, and
Barter, you knov they vere there? ;i ^ ^^-
A Yes, sir. - ' < >■ '
Q You definitely state they vore there?
A Yes, sir. I don't recall anyone 1 knov that vas la that room. ^
Q Hov ahout Milton Bratton?
A Ho, sir.
Q You didn't see him when he vas In Boom Z?
A Yes, sir.
Q You knov Milton?
A I know of him, yes, sir.
Q You didn't see him?
A Ho, sir, as near as I recall.
Q How about Willie Basden?
A I don't know him.
Q How about Thomas Battle?
A I don't know the man.
Q John S. Brown, he Is a T/kJ
A I don't knov Brown.
Q Johnnie Ceaser?
A Again I say as near as I recall I didn't see Johnnie Ceaser In there
hut It vas later stated he vas In there.
Q
A
Did Johnnie tell you he vas In there?
Ho, sir.
Q Who vas the person that told you that?
A I don't recall right now, hut It vas discussed In the company that
Ceaser vas In there.
Q What did they say Ceaser vas doing?
A Didn't say.
Q Didn't they say he vas striking the hoys, hitting the Italians
M-
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93'9
(pxhcxhey)
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Authority ^]1) -^^33
Bv^^PnaRA Date_£fc(l2/CZ
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that rem outside?
A Ho, Bir, tb97 didn't say he vaa.
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Q James Chandler, did you see hia there?
A I said tbsy were going out vhen I opened the door, there vere
■en that I didn't loiov, hut they were going out the vlndov.
Q You mean out of the people there you didn't knov many of them?
A Again I vlll say, sir, that there was more than one coiKpany
around there and I don't recall hut one or two men.
Q How about Willie Curry, do you inow Willie?
A Ho, sir. ■ N
Q You know Roy Daynond?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you remember seeing him there? •■
A Sir, I didn't see him,
Q You didn't see him either outside or Inside the building?
A Ho, sir.
■>-
Q Did you see him In the area that night?
A I don't know him. i " ;
Q You don't know him and you didn't see him In the area that
night?
A Ho, sir. ^:.- ■....:
Q ?ow about Lee Dlzon, he Is a T/5? ^ H.
A I don't know hlm. V V
Q How about Willie Ellis?
A I know him.
Q Did you see him?
A I didn't see him there.
Q Did you see him standing outside the building when you came out?
A I didn't see hlm at all.
Q How about Herman Gentry?
A Ho, sir, I don't know hlm, 1 hare heard that name.
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(PIHCKHEY)
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Q Hov eibout Addison George, he Is a good fjrleod of yonrsT
A I don't knov, he lsn*t a friend of nine.
Q Is he In the same company? -^
A Yes, sir, ;-. ,.;- .. - y ?. '.'' r.
Q Ton Imow him pretty well? '' %
A Yes, sir. ■ \, ■% ■ .s. , . '.: 4 •"-
Q Where did you last see him? ' ;:
A I didn't see him at all.
Yon didn't see him In the area?
vs-
Q
A Ho, sir. Colonel, I think I said once "before they put the light
out there and you couldn't see your hand hefore you.
■ ^- ■'.'■■ ■•• 4 ■ -
Q I realize that. ^
A Yes, sir. -.: * *' '
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Q Yet you sav Hughes and the only light vas shining out of the
vlndov tram the orderly room and you uoonld see him plainly.
A Yes, sir. .
hulh.
After you got Inside you could see "because they had a 200'-vatt
Yes, sir. : ^
A
Q
A
They had the light on In the room?
Just In the orderly room.
Wasn't there any light in Boom Y vhere they had the Italians?
Ho, sir.
Q Out In front vhere the tvo counters are, they had a light there,
didn't tjiey?
A There wasn't any light, they vere in the orderly room. ^
Q That is ybj I say it looks rather strange that you don't knov
some of the fellows that Jumped out of the vindov, hecause the bright
light shone plainly there.
A Again I vlll say if I knev vho they were I would he glad to tell
you so we could get this straightened up.
it.
I am not doubting your wort, I want you to he definite about
(PIHCEHEY)
vS' -It'
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Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Vhere did 70a last see EaoBllton?
I didn't see Hamilton at all.
4'.
Where vaa Johnson?
I don't knov hla.
VllllaK 6. Jones, jon knov hla?
The last tlse I sav Joaos vas up on the road.
Before 70U vent dovn In there?
Yes, sir.
What vas he doing up there?
He vas up there vlth the rest of the crovd* *'
What vas he doing?
Standing In the hunch and Hurks vas telling them to keep hack.
that
Q VlU.e vas talking vlth eOJ. of thes and he vas vlth this crovd
vere hollering ahout putting thea out?
A les, sir.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
*
He vas aaiong the crovd?
Yes, sir.
He and Hurks hoth?
Hurks vas one I thought 1A0 stayed hack.
You didn't see hla doing anything, did 70a?
lo, sir.
You heard Hurks talking aaong that group?
lo, sir. «^
Wasn't he talking vlth that group that vas there?
Yes, sir.
Sid 70tt hear hla 8a7 anTthlug?
lo, sir, I didn't.
Henr7 Jupiter, did 70U see hlM?
I didn't see Jupiter.
.^.•
r;,.;*
.■*'
34.2
(fuckhey)
#■ ■■ ■%/ I r^ ■■#"#• #'-n#i?>;^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "] 3 ^^^ -
By^^NARA Datei^^(l2/0Z
Keprofluceci at me National Arcti:
J**-.
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bad "been
1 doa*t knov Boljert.
B07 NcmtgonBry, 70U testified you saw Moatgonsry.
I doa*t know hla, I know William Montgonerj.
Willie Prerost? ? -
I didn't see him down there. ^
Edvard SandereT J *^
I don't knov him.
■f^
AlTa Sbelton?
Ho, air.
■' -■■ ' ^ •■ .' . ..■:; -.'■. ■
Jesse SlmsT -
Yes, sir. »
Where was he?
I didn't see him.
Samnel Sixnr, did jon see SamnslT
So, sir,
Leslie Stevartr
I don't know him. i, '
Blchard SuttllffT
I dldnH see him. I knov him, tot I didn't see him.
Samnel Thomas, did 70a see him?
I don't know him. '^f '
Booker TownsellT
I knov him, hut I didn't see him.
■'i '
Joe Trice?
I didn't see Trice.
Arthto* Williams, do 70U knov Arthur?
I didn't see him down there.
William D. Montgomeiy?
No, sir, I nsTer sav him down thexa^ I ssv him after he said he
heaten.
.; 343
(pucebey)
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Authority ^] 3 ^^3 3
Reproduced at the National Arch
)r-b«li..--
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Q When thfi7 had hla on tbe ground? ^
K T«B, sir. V
Q Hov^ ITS are in Boom X orer there, the l}lg roca, did yoa recognize
anyone in that hig room. Boom Z7
A Ho, air. ..* -rf ■ ■ ^ :?- :
Q You went in Book T, didn't yout • ?'
A Tea, air. ^r ; . '. '' '■-: ■■'}% ^ '■'/■: "iy -"' ' ' T'
Q And eridently that looked all %uiet in there? '% -'.-^
A lee, air, z^- ■',;"''■
Q Who did Tou see there 70a recognized?
A Ho one.
Q Were there anjr colored soldiera in there?
A Ho, Bir.
' "^ .. ^ -
Q Did 70a see any go out the vindov?
A Ho, air, , ^
Q Did you aee an7 after 70U got in and looked through the vindov?
A Ho, sir. ' ,
Q Tou didn^t aee Hugbea and Wooden standing there then?
A Ho, air. !* '
Q The7 had gone away? ^
A I imagine ao.
Q You oould see if 70U looked throu^ the vindov? 't i^
A Yes, sir. f '^ ■ ■ ' ''V,;-.'<
■r .
Q Where did 70U go after that? j
A I aeyer did leave Boon I. ^ :.\
Q As 70U stood there I iHsliere 70U stated 70U sav someone
standing in the door or in the islevay that goes hetveen A and D?
A Yes, sir. . .
Q
A
Who are the people you sav there?
I don't recall vho those were.
iii.
I hellere you mentioned one the other day vhen you talked to me.
A
-•_.i- ^ c k
.% p.
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544
(pihckhey)
■* '«=i
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By 53PnaRA Date^fe^i:?/OZ
Reproduced at the National Arch
65
■¥ v^ It:.
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A I doa*t think I asntlonad aoyons. One of the MP's and nyself
plckod up tvo Italians and "brooght then Into Booa X that leads Into the
orderly roon.
Q Bnt'tbat la through the front dobrT f '*"
A Tee, sir, K"-'-,
- ^ 'l-:i.r T ^;' ; > .■■; .
Q When you vent in and looked through the hallvay, this door had
heen knocked down and this Is vhere you picked up the tvo Italian
fellovs?
A
Q
A
f
<>•
Qrer here and here Is vhere I sav Blchard.
You sav Blchard standing In this door?
Standing In this Islevay.
Q You sav Blchard there?
A Yes, sir. ..' ■•^;;' 3 ■"
Q Who vere the others In the hallvay vlth Blchard?
A I said there vasn't anyone In that Islevay ylth Blchard.
Q He vas hy hlaself ?
A2. Yes, sir. ,,
Q Was anyone In hewk of him? T
A Ho, sir. . ' '.;
Q That Is vhere he stood iriben he had ths rocks In his hand?
A He had sonethlng, I couldn't say vhat It vas.
Q Was there anyone else that cane In vhlle you vere looking tovard
that hallvay hesldes Blchard?
A Ho, sir. " -' / ' "!■■ 's:
Q You vere located vhere you could see hl«T
A I told the MP to go stand In the door. V i
Q He stood at the first door, he didn't stand outside the door?
A Ho, sir, he vent outslds the door and stood.
Q That vas the vhlte MP? '•
A Yes, sir,
Q Didn't you use any deputised colored soldiers to help you?
A Ho, sir.
': "> ' ■ '^. i ' ■ •
945
(PIHCKHEY)
■^ .4.
*■,*■. ^;- - ^njlfe-
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Reproduced at the National Arct
DECLASSIFIED
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By^NARA Datei^^^l^
'«i.'
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Q
k
Q
A
Ton didn't ose anj of tbm&t
Ho, sir.
Tott juat tued the MP»b you had?
X»Sjr air.
i^'
^- ■!?'
Q How, after the fight vas over there you want hack to your
harracks?
A Ho, elr. : "■ ■ ■ ■■•."'> ". ■-^- :,■/■,.. ->
Q After you had finished all of your vork that night didn't you
go heusk to your harracka?
X . Yes, air,
Q When you got hack to your harreuska moat of the hoys vera In the
harracka hecause they dldn*t go to work that day?
A Yes, air.
Q When you got hack there who did you talk with?
A The only onea I can remenher la Sergeant Smith WlUlams and
Sergeant Auhry.
Q That la the f Irat aergeant?
A Yea, air,
Q When you came hack p^ your harracka, did they make fun of youT
A Yea, air.
Q Who waa It that made fun of you and that you reaented hecauae
you had done a good Jjoh? Who waa It that made fun of you?
A I don*t recall who It waa, .i ■ ■
Q Waan't there acmeone In your harracka that made fun of you?
A Yea, air,
Q Who made the remark about you?
A They aald I takea MP on nyaelf and I went down and run thoae
guya out. As near aa I recall they aald, "There la old MP Flnckney
hlmaelf " and I aald It didn't make a damn whether I did or not. It waa
all oTsr with me and I hoped thoae that didn't like me taking up MP
would atart a fight with me. .,
Q Who waa It that waa talking to you?
A He la one of the new fellowa Ithat came In, I don't recall hla name,
he hasn't heen In the coopany very long.
<l
(PIHCKHEY)
*^-.^«^:»^- -■:;^^.^ -^ . *^ ■*- ^-^-^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J-^^^'>
By^NARA Patent./ 1 :;/L7
Keproduced at the National Arctii
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Q Vhat did Sergeaat Aobry saj vhen ha vaa there?
A He JuBt said, "That»B enotigh of that."
Q What else did ha sayt
A Sa didn't saj- axiTthlng
Q What did WlUlaas say?
A He didn't say anything.
Q Vfets ha In the room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Didn't he tell those fellovs to shut thalr laouths?
A WllllaiBB didn't say anything, Sergeant Aubry vas tha one that
said, "That Is enough."
Q Md you and Williams get along pretty wall?
A Yes, sir.
•
Q Who are the fellovs you didn't like In the outfit that vare making
fun of you?
A I don't dislike aoy of than.
Q
A
Q
hanged?
A
Did you tell them you had Just found an Italian hanged?
No, sir, I reported tliat to the company commandar.
Didn't you mention It vhen you came In there that he had heen
Ho, sir.
Q When did the hoys leam aliout the hanging?
A They didn't leam until after va vent Into tha other "barracks'
and va vent dovn to gat our rifles Inspected and vhen va came hack tha
mmor dropped out someplace.
Q Who told tham first?
A I ceuonot say.
Q But they knav It?
A Tes, sir.
Q Did you hear tha hoys talking It over?
A They asked — vondarad vho did the hanging and vondared hov long
ha had haen hung.
3,47
(pjhckmey)
-.<Pt A
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^ /3^^^-
By^NARA Date^^[2!ii
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idea?
Q
Q
A
Did the "bojB BQj thej Tsjoav vho did. that or that thej had a good
Ho, Sir. '- ^ ■ t: . ' -
You didn't hear auajone saj that?
No, Blr,
Q That l8 about all they tallnd about, they vondered vho did It
and nobody nade a conjecture as to vho did It?
A No, sir,
Q Did they say vho took the rope or vho had the rope?
A Ho, sir,
Q Did they knov vhere they got the rope?
A No, sir,
Q Hone of them mentioned ahout vhere they got the rope?
A Ho, sir, I didn't hear about vho hung hla, the only remark made
vas they said they vondered vho hung him and hov long he had been hung. '
Q They didn't say, "That is good enough for the Son-of-a-bltch"?
A Ho, sir.
Q Or, "It vould be good If they hanged the vhole bunch"?
A Ho, sir, those remarks vasn't made.
Q After this roEark ahout the hanging, have you since that time
heard anyone talking about it since you have been over at the stockade?
A I vas only asked vho found him and I made the remark, " I an the
one that fouAd him hung, another MP and myself."
Q Vhat did they say?
A They asked me hov he looked, hov a hung man looks.
Q Did they ask you vhere he vas hung and everything?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you told them?
A Yes, sir.
Q While you vere talking ahout the hanging, do you remember a bunch
of them saying they vex*e in the area vhere he vas hanged?
A Ho, sir.
948
(fincehey}
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.■gi-*><Mfe.aiftfe>
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Q Did a "bunch of them 887 they had chased an Italian through that
place and didn't see him? ^ ,. ^
A Ho, air. if 7 ;^:>;- ^ ".
■i i , ■ ''■' -y '.'■ :' -' - :■ . .
• . . ■ ~ • . £.- A.' : ..r. •'> . ■■
Q No one told you they vere chasing Italians so far as you Imov and
they were surprised they didn't see him?
A No, sir. >.-,■,;,; i- ;;. J"'/. .'-'•
Q
night?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Did any of them say they heard a hunch of people down there that
Ho, sir.
How long hare you known Bichard Beo-her?
Since I have teen in the 650th Port Cotspaoy.
Ahout how long has that heen?
I am not for sure whether Richard Barber cane in January or March,
it was "bejat there sotaeplace, approximately 5 or 6 months.
Q Have the two of you heen friends?
A Only in seeing each other going from one place to another.
Q There in the company?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you ever had wc^ds or anything like that?
A No, sir.
Q Hare you had any conrersation with Bichard ahout his heing in
the area and in this fight since it happened?
A No, sir,
Q You haven't talked with him?
A No, sir. ,
Q Ihe only reason you are willing to identify Richard and not any
of the other "boys down there —
A The only reason is that I saw Richard and I know him, that is the
only reason.
Q There is no particular reason yon wanted to identify him and not
some of the others?
A No, sir.
Q He is the only one you can tell us ahout that was in the orderly
I&.-
I.
(PIHCKHEY)
««,. -,..-.
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Bv^IPnaRA Date'^P^I^/^-^.
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room.
him.
A Y©8, Blr.
Q And 70U can remamber Bpeclflcally the conrersatlon you had with
TOBf sir.
Q You say there was a lot of conversation and 70U hare trouble In
remembering and identifying folks that you sav, hut you do remember
Richard. Doesn't that look strange to you?
A Ho, sir, hecause I forestated that Wallace Wooden and Frank
Eiighes — 1 told them to clear out of the area and they may hare did that
hecause vhen I looked out the wlndov I couldn't see them and there wasn't
any other men of the 6^0th that I can recall that I remember seeing In
that area that 1 bad any dealings vlth.
Q Did you give aqy orders to anyone other than Blchard Barher,
Hughes, and Wooden?
A Other than the group of men we told to clear out of the area of
the orderly room.
Q You told a hunch of them to clear out of different places?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were clearing them out as you went through?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whom else did you address that order to?
A As I said, other men that was In the area. Again 1 will say
that the men that was down there was from four companies and It is hard
to identify the men you don't know and don't hare close dealings with.
950
(PINCKHEY) (END)
-^ .. ■JiJs -. •
DECLASSIFIED
Authority JX2_S;l£__
Reproduced al the National Arclin
4ifci*Sif."-iiiti-«--- >■-• ' >> '
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Further testimony of Pfc. Boy L, Moatgonery.
taken at Seattle, Washington on 26 Septeniber 19t|^
^y Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Villiaxs, IGD.
The vltness vas reminded he vas still under oath and
of hie rights as a vltness under the 2^th Article of War.
to
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Q On the night of August ll»-, 19M*, you hare preriovisly testified
that when the fight started you went to the vicinity of Building 700.
That is this huildlng here. i-, ^ • > *; <r
A After it had started, yes, sir.
Q You left yovo" Barracks, Barracks 666 and went directly to Building
700, or in the ricinity of 700 where the riot was in progress then?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when you arrived at Building 700 grou saw a large number
in the vicinity of that hullding?
A Yes, sir, over hy 719.
Q And what were they doing at the tins you first observed them?
A Standing up talking.
Q
A
Talking ahout Willie D. Montgomery getting hit?
When I heard about him getting hit I was around the end of this
building here.
Q You were getting ready to go down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And a lot of them had clubs?
A I didn't see any clubs.
Q But later you saw them with clubs?
A Yes, sir.
Q . After you wont up and got the 2-by-lv in the vicinity of the
north side of Building 700—
A Yes, sir.
Q Then you went to the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
^6S , :;. t:t
(MONTGOKEBY)
ii>
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Reproduced at Ihe National Arcliiv
y.s-^rt?*i^*.t*iiJ>--i^'-^--** ^
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*"
Q Who did you B«e you first recognized after you first entered the
Italian Area, the first man you sav?
A That vas this guy In the orderly roo«.
Q Dldn*t you see someone "before you got to the orderly room?
A Yes, sir, I sav soaeone, hut I don't reaeoiber who he was*
Q Don't you reaeoiber a^y of them outside the hulldlng?
A Ho, sir.
ft When you went up to the orderly rooa what door did you first enter?
A The front door. Door A.
Q Vho did you see when you first entered the hulldlng that you
recognized?
A That Is when I saw — I didn't recognize anyone In this Boom B. .
Q Who did you first see that you recognized?
A That was this Curry and Ceaser. \
Q You sav Willie S, Curry and John Ceaser?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where were they with reference to Door D?
A In tlie rojsm this side.
Q They were In Boom Z?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was Curry and Ceaser doing In Boom Z?
A That Is vhen they vas coming from the outside and coming hack Into
Boom Z.
Q They had clubs In their hands, didn't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they strike anyone while you were standing there?
A I didn't see them.
Q Nov, who else did you see in Boom X that you recognized?
What colored soldiers did you see in Boom Z that you recognized?
A I didn't recognize any in there.
Q You mean you sav all of these people and you didn't recognize
any of them?
.ji-
(MOHTGOMSBY)
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»■- -.
A No, Blr, I didn't. ' * V^
Q Did 70a notice a large number of colored soldiers there!
A There were "but I couldn't recognize ar^ of them.
Q There was none you knev? ^
A Ho, sir.
Q In Boom Y who did 70U see that 70U recognized?
A I did not recognize anyone.
Q Ab you looked Into Boom Y who did you see standing there on the Insidi
A I didn't recognize anyone.
Q While you were outside looking In the hulldlng who did you see
In the hulldlng you recognized besides John Ceaser and ViUle Curry?
A Woodln was standing In Door A.
A
k
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Area?
Did he hare a club In his hand In Door A?
I didn't recognize the club.
Who else did you recognize In the ylclnlty of that hulldlng?
Mathls.
Bohert Mathls?
Yes, sir.
What was he doing when you first saw him?
He waen't doing anything.
But he had a dub In his hand?
Yes, sir.
And did he tell you what he had heen doing?
No, sir.
He didn't tell you ahout what he had been doing in the Italian
No, sir.
Q Who else did you talk to about what they did in the Italian
Area on the night of August iHh, 19Wi-?
A Well, I didn't definitely tedk to anyone.
Q You heard some conrersation?
O -: 7
00 .
(MOHTOOOMEBY)
•■^ *q.-
V--
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A Tee^ sir.
Q Did 70U hear a conToraatlon aljout their participation in the
fight in the Italian Area? Who did you hear?
A MathiB and Ceaeer, Curry and Minrray.
Q What was his name? ;. " .^ ,*Jt
A Murray. ;: "^ ' ^y
Q Did he say vhat he did on the night of August ll^th, 19Mf?
A He didn't say what he did> he was in the conrersatlon.
Q What vas the conversation ahout, vhat they had done?
A They were Just conversing about the fight.
Q Hov^ of these four men that you definitely identify as heing in
the orderly room on the night of August l^t^th, 19^*^^ what ones did you
see with the cluhs they had in their hands?
A I didn't recognize anyone.
Q You never saw a lick helng hit In that area?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q The only lick you hit was the one you struck over the head
as he came through Door B toward E?
A Yes, sir.
A
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And you hit him with a t-hy-^?
Yes, sir.
Was he an Italian soldier?
Yes, sir.
■I
That is the only one you hit daring the evening?
Yes, sir.
Q Did you see anyone reach throu£^ the window that leads Into Boom Y
and strike a soldier?
A No, sir. "
Q Did you hear anyone scream in Boom Y while you were in the
huildlng? -
A Yes, sir, they was hollering.
Q What were they hollering?
938
(MONTGOMERY)
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A "Oh, Oh, moroy."
Q But at the tine they vere hollering you didn't bare the
opportunity to look into that room, is that right?
A When I heard the hollering that is vfaen X vae looking.
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remember.
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shirt?
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Was anyone hitting them vhen they vere hollering?
They had been hitting them already.
They vere all "beat up lying on the floor? ■ t
Yes, sir.
The men in Boon Z vere seriously vounded?
Yes, sir.
^:-
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Sobs of them had heen stabhed?
I don't knov if any had heen stahhed.
Sone of them vere lying on the floor? '
1 didn't see them right on the floor in Boom X, if I did 1 don't
^ ■> \- .■■■■■"% -
Did you see a sergeant sitting on the desk that had hlood on his
He had blood running dovn his forehead.
Onto his face? . -^
Yea, sir, 4
And did you see vho had hit him? t
Mo, sir, I didn't.
That had been done before you entered the building?
Yes, sir. ,.4
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Q After you got in the building and entered Poaa X through Door B
and after you had seen the vounded soldiers in the room, did you hold
up your hand and then tell them to stop fighting?
A Yes, sir. ^
Q As you held up your hand you directed your attention tovard
Door C and Door D?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you sav several soldiers throu£^ Door D vhile you vere holding
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(MONTGOMERY)
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your hand up? ^1 .a ;^ .
A Yea, air,
Q Who were those eoldlera?
A I dldn*t recognize them.
Q After you vent outalde, did you aee anyone on thla aide of the
'building?
A I didn't go on that aide of the Imlldlng.
Q Aa you vent hy the tenta did you aee anyone In the rlcinlty of
the tenta?
A There aeeaed to he acne out In front- > no, that vaa hefore
I vent In the hulldlng the first tine— vhen I vent out the f Irat tlote
Bobert Mathla vent betveen the tenta.
Q Vhen you net Bobert betveen the tents, vhat vaa he doing?
A Well, I don»t knov If he caae out of the latrine, I didn't aee
vhlch vay he came from.
Q Before you vent In the building you teatlf led you s&v a bunch of
men around the tenta?
A Yea, air, < j
Q Who were those peraona?
A I don't know that, it vas dark.
Q Didn't you hear any of them talking?
A Yea, air.
Q You aav them vith oluba?
A Yea, air, they did have clubs.
Q But you can't recognize any of them?
A Ho, sir. t
Q Do you have anything elae you vould like to add?
A Ho, air. . - ,» ■ ^
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Ftirthar testimony of Prt. John Lee Hamilton,
taken at Seattle, Washington on 26 Septeoiber 19'*^
1>y Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. VllliamB, IGD.
The witness weis reminded he was still under oath and of
his rights as a witness under the 2l«-th Article of War.
Q On the night of August lUth, 19^/ did you lose your dogtags
during the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q
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room?
A
Did you erer find it?
No, sir.
Do you know where it went? ,
No, sir, I dropped it in the orderly room*
In the Italian orderly room?
Yes, sir.
Did you have any fight with anyone in the Italian orderly
No, sir.
How do you account for you losing your dogtag?
I had it on my dog chain and it kept ccming off, even when I
slept, of course, I could find my dogtag in "bed.
Q Weren*t you afraid of losing your dogtags and didn't you make
any provisions for their security?
A No, sir, I never gave it any thought.
Q You knew you had to wear your dogtags all the time?
A Yes, air.
Q And you knew you were getting ready to go overseas?
A Yes, sir,
Q And you didn't make any effort to fasten them on securily?
A I figured It would come off in ted,
Q How did you have them fastened on your neck, on a chain?
A Yes, sir, this is the chain and I took them off "because they would
qqi
(HAMILTON)
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never stay on.
(MVESTIGATIHGr OFFICER ^ Let the record show the chain the witness
testifies his dogtags were fastened onto was the normal silver coated
chain used "by soldiers for the purpose of securing dogtags to the
individual.)
Q Which one of your dogtags did you lose, the upper one or the
lower one?
A I don't know which one it was, because when I got up the
next morning one of the dogtags was in the "bed.
Q And then you knew you had lost one "but you didn't know where
you had lost it?
A No, sir, I didn't know where I lost it. ' t
Q Did they later tell you where it was found, if it was ever found?
A When I came up here they told me they found it down there.
Q Did they say where they found it? .
A No, sir.
Q Do you know whether you lost it in Room X or Room Z?
A No, sir, I don't know.
Q Or if they found it in Room Y?
A I don't know. I can't explain how it got in there, I never
have "been in that room, I never did go in here.
Q On the night of August iHh, 19^ weren't you In Room Y?
A Ho, sir, these are the only two rooms I went In, those two
rooms there.
Q You didn't go in Roc»a Y?
A No, sir.
Q And if your Dogtag was found in Roam Y, aomeone oairied it in
there?
A I wouldn't say anyone carried it in there, "but I don't know
how it got in there.
Q If you didn't go in that room how do you account for the fact
it got in there?
A I can't explain that, I don't know how it got in there.
(HAMILTON)
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Q What else did jou hare on you that night "beBldes your dogtag that
you lost?
A I oeTsr misplaced anything.
Q Didn't you own a knife?
A Yes, sir, I had a knife.
Q What did you do with that knife?
A The knife was given to the sergeant,
Q The night of the fight you had your knife?
A No, sir, the night of the fight I dldn*t have the knife.
Q Where was it?
A The platoon sergeant had it.
Q What was he doing with it?
A I had given it to him two or three days "before the fight.
Q Why did you give it to yoirr platoon sergeant? . - "-^ -^
A Because our company commander didn't want us toting them
around.
Q Did all the hoys turn their knives in at that time?
A I don't know if all of them did.
Q Isnjt it a fact it was a day or two or the next day after the
fij^t that the knives were picked up hy the ccmpany commander?
A Yes, sir, they picked them up the day after the fight,
Q All right. On the night of the fight you had yoxir knife? : ■
A Mo, sir, I didn't.
Q Why did you turn it into the sergeant, you hadn^t teen ordered
to turn them into the sergeant.
A I thin^ it was-- let's see — what sergeant was it, the sergeant
told us the lieutenant didn't want us to keep those knives with ub.
Q What sergeant told you that?
A It was--
Q Sergeant Hurks?
A Ho, sir, it wasn't Hurks.
Q Was it Sergeant Cahral?
ii
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(HAMHTOH)
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A Mo, sir, I think it waa— let me see what sergeant it was--
I don't know exactly what sergeant it was, anyhow, I had it taJtoen later
that day, I had "been cleaning out my stuff and I put it in my hag
and I had "been cleaning out my hag so I took it and put it in my pocket
and I went to the show with it and then I was standing on the outside
and I pulled out my knife, I was feeling for my cigarettes and I pulled
out the knife to get my cigarettes or get scaue matches and there was
one of the hoys that had a knife there, that owned a knlC© lik© tlJa*
and another fellow said I hetter turn it in, they want us to turn in all
taives 80 we won*t he toting them.
Q Did you turn your knife in at the theater?
A Ho, sir, I kept it until the day after, the same day after we
marched to the theater.
Q You were at the theater at night time, weren't you?
A At night time? ';
Q Yes, it was during the night that you went to the theater? ^ ^
A No, sir, it was a show they gave the hoys, a regular show for '
hoys going overseas.
Q Then you went hack to your harracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q After the show?
A Yes, sir.
Q And after you got hack to yo\»r harracks you kept your knife
another night?
A No, sir, I turned it into the sergeant.
Q Do you know to whom you turned your knife in?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is his name?
A Sgrgeant Martin.
Q Sergeant Martin?
A Yes, air.
Q Are you sure that is the man you tvinwd it into?
A Yes, sir, I gave it to Sergeant Martin.
Q Will Sergeant Martin testify he took your knife from you the day
*^*'^fc.
(HAMILTON. )
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you w|nt *fjj*^®gg^|f j^Q 40^,^. testify to it he vill Ue telling a lie.
Q When did you next see your knife after you turned it into
Sergeant Martin?
A Let mh think— it was the day after the fight when the sergeant
astod UB to turn in porulmlveB— I "ttiink that morning, I think it was the
morning we had heen somewhere, the company had heen somewhere and came
hack and the sergeant gave me my knife and I stuck it in my hag.
Q Did you examine it at all?
A Well, I Just took it and cleaned it and put it in my hag.
Q Was there anything unusual ahout your knife when you put it in
your hag that you noted?
A Well, when I gave it to him I had a little small staring tied on
that point there.
Q There wasn't anything unusual ahout your knife when you received
it hack?
A Not that I noted.
Q Is that your knife?
A Yes, sir, that is my knife.
Q Did you have this string tied on it when you turned it into the
sergeant?
A No, sir.
Q Where did you have the string tied onto it when you turned it into
the sergeant?
A A little small string tied around here.
Q Around the sheath of the knife or around the handle?
A This part here, around here.
Q Was this string on It again when you got it hack?
A Well, I seen the string on it.
Q What explanation do you have to refute the fact that when your
knife was tested it showed hlood stains?
A Well, all I can say is if it had hlood on it someone else got
if from the sergeant or he used it himself.
Q Did you see the sergeant down there that night?
(HAMILTQH)
nk
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A Ho, sir, I never saw the sergeant at all that night.
Q Did you see anyone that had your knife down there that night?
A Ho, sir, I never did see anyone with the knife.
Q This knife which I now hand you Is hour knife, lsn»t It?
A Yes, sir. It Is bqt knife.
Q Oils Is the knife which you turned over to Sergeant Martin the
day "before the fight?
A Yes, sir, two days "before the fight.
Q Pm&. It was returned to you the day after the fight hy Sergeant
Martin?
A Yes, sir, of course, he didn't give It to me, he told me the knife
was In on the desk and to go in and pick it up, he didn*t "bring it up
to me.
'"''■ ""-." ■■'!*
Q He said the knife was on the desk and for you to go get it?
A Yes, sir. He walked out of his room and I was standing there
and he said, "John, go get your knife there," and I walked in and got
it and I Just took It and cleaned it up a little.
Q You never took it out of the sheath at all?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't take It out at all the day "before you turned it over
or the day after the riot?
A No, sir, I never did take it out.
Q Vhen was the last time it was taken from you?
A Hie last time it was taken from me?
Q Yes.
A The last time he took it from me, I turned the knife into the '
sergeant. That is the only time I turned it in, that day.
you?.
Q Hy q.uestion was when was the last time the knife was taken from
A The last time some"bo(3y had it out?
Q After the fight and after you had received your knife from
Sergeant Martin, when was the last time it was taken from you?
A The same day, that same morning.
.jL
(HAMILTON)
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Q The morning of the 15th of August this knife you hare Identified
as "being your Imlfe was taken from youj Is that rlg^t?
A Yes, sir.
Q By whom?
A It vas taken Tsy Sergeant Aubz^, he cone and took all of them, the
first sergeant.
Q
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knlyes.
Q
knife?
A
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Vhy did he say he wanted that knife from yon on the 15thT
Why did he say he wanted that knife?
Yes.' .'.■■■-
That Is when the Lieutenant cane around and told us to turn In our
That Is the only time you got official orders to turn In your
Yes, sir, that was the only time.
Is that your dogtag?
Yes, sir, that la my dogtag.
(INVESTIGATING OFFICER: Let the record show the dogtag "bearing
the name John Lee Hamilton, 3Q'^h'J9h^f T-Uh, o-P was shown to the witness
and he identified it as "being his dogtag.) e
Q
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you?
Q
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You lost this dogtag on the night of August llvth, 19^?
Yes, sir.
In the Italian orderly room?
Veil, I imagine that Is ^ere it was lost.
Why?
I had "been down there.
You had "been fighting irtille you had "been down there too, hadn't
No, sir, I never did fight when I was down there, I never did.
And you took your knife and 8tab"bed one American soldier?
No, sir, I had no knife while I was down there.
Q And that is when the American soldier grah"bed ahold of your
chain and Jerked the dogtag loose, wasn't it?
A No, sir.
(HAMILTON)
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you?
Q
You remember soneoxie grabbing the chain aroond jovac neck^ don*t
No, sir, notody ever graT>bed me around the neck.
^16
(hamiltoh) (ehd)
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TeBtlmooy of Fr irate BolDert Mathis, taken at
Seattle^ Washington on 2? September l^l^ tj Llei;t.
Colonel Curtis L. Villiaas, IGD.
The vitneea was svoim.
Q State your name, serial nimiber, and organization.
A Private Ro'bert Mathis, 5*»^'*2*»-35* 65lBt Port Company, Fort
Lavton, Washington. - w,r
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a vltness under the 2Hh
Article of War?
A I don't get that so well.
(2^th Article of War read and explained to the witness)
Q Do you understand your rights now? ^
A Yes, sir,
Q On the night of August lUth, 19^, were you out at Fort Lawton?
A Yes, sir, I was restricted to the area, I can't go in here.
Q You were cotif ined to the post that night?
A Yes, sir.
Q And around about 9! 50 you. went up and met your girl friend?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did she come out from here?
•A Yes, sir.
Q You went up and met her around about 900?
A Yes, air, she came down here, I was with another soldier and he
cam© down and got me and said she was looking for me.
Q What is your girl friend's name?
A Gladys Patrick.
«
Q After you met her did you take her to the mess hall of this
outfit, the 65l8t?
A I don't know, that was a new company mess hall,
Q The 700 Area mess hall?
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(MA£H1S)
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A I don't know vhlch one.
Q It was close to the FZ?
A 7es, sir, that is It.
Q How long did you stay In the mess hall?
A We stayed there — let me see —
Q Until about ten minutes to eleyen?
A I guess It was ahout right around In that time.
Q While you were In the mess hall. Building 700, there was a guitar
playing, wasn't there?
A Yes, sir, that Is right.
Q Who was playing the guitar? i -
A I don't know his name, I don't know the "boy. ':;
Q You all had "beer there?
A A case of heer.
Q Who hrought the "beer In the mess hall?
A The first sergeant of our company.
Q That ^Ig first sergeant?
A The hig fat guy.
Q Is his name Sergeant Tanner?
A I know him, I don't know his name.
Q Did you see Sergeant Bennett there?
A I don't know him if I was to see him.
Q And you had a little dance In the mess hall?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many were in the mess hall at that time?
A There was five girls and. six "boys when I first went in and later
comes a hunch of men, hoys,
Q They came in to listen to the music?
A They came in to drink our "beer.
Q You only had one case, however?
A That is all.
ICI
(MATHIS)
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Q After you had drunk the "beer In there and contlnvwd to dance
awhile, irtio did you see come in the mess hall you knew?
A One hoy, that is Thomas Battle, his wife was looking for him.
A
Q
A
with me.
Thonas Battle?
Yes, sir.
His wife was in the mess hall then?
Yes, sir, his wife was looking for him and I told him to cone
Q You found Thomas?
A He came later, I didn't know where to find htm. He came in
and told me he had some equipment he had to get, he had his equipment
someplaoe. • •;: ."^.'7^: -,r
Q After the dance was over about ten minutes to eleven, you took
the girls home?
A Just to the hus stop,
Q You took them to the "bus stop on Utah Avenue "by the guard house?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the post?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you had taken the girls up to the "bus stop you and Battle
came "back down to the area?
A Yes, sir. Me and another guy walked up with those other girls.
Q And you got hack to the area ahout the time this thing started?
A When I got hack down there we seen a hunch of guys grouped up
down there.
Q Vhen you came hack there you saw the fellows grouped up close
to the mess hall?
A Yes, sir, all around the mess hall.
Q What were they doing when you and Battle first came up there?
A Then I heard sticks huating and a hig lot of noise in that
group that was standing around there.
Q The fact is that they were hreaklng down the fence in front of
the mess hall, were they not?
A I can't tell you.
13
(MATHIS)
120
%IJUI ijiilM4TJAL ' #1
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By^NARA^Date/^:^1^25
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Q Didn*t 70U Bee them Inaocklcg the fence dovn?
A Mo, sir. ~v
Q Tou heard etlcks treaklng?
A Tea, air?
Q Vhen 70U got there the fence had teen "broken down?
A I didn't eren go down.
Q I Bean around Building TOO.
A That is the mess hall?
Q Yes, didn't 70U go "back that way? .
A I went "back, I didn't have anything further —
Q You heard sticks "breaking, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you heard talking?
A That is right.
Q Did you hear any roices you recognized?
A No, sir there were so many voices I couldn't tell one frcxn
another.
Q Was the talking pretty loud?
A Yea, sir,
Q Were they saying, "Tret's go down and "beat up those Italians"?
A I didn't hear them saying that, they was down there.
Q The fight was going on in the Italian Area at the same time you
heard the sticks "broken up around Building TOO?
A Yes, sir.
Q How did you know the fight was going on In the Italian Area?
A I looked down.
Q Could you hear them throwing rocks against the "barracks?
A Yee, sir.
Q Could you hear the glass "being "broken?
A I don't know that I heard glass "being "broken, I heard rocks
hitting against the "building.
(JIATHIS)
2121
^ OI9PWRMHHI|ifiiAL
«
DECLASSIFIED
Authority .255^^?^——
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2
3
4
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6
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Q Could you heeor screamltie down In the Italian Area?
A I heard kind of hollering like,
Q What did you hear?
A I heard cussing.
Q Did you hear people chopping on the hulldlngs vlth an ax?
A Ho, sir, I didn't hear that,
Q After you heard the noise going on In the Italian Area, what
did you do?
A Stood on the outside for awhile.
Q Outside of what huildlng?
A Hy harracks. ':
Q What Is the number of your harracks? . .
A 672 I think It Is. \ '
Q But anyway, you stood on the outside of your "barracks and listened
to what was going on?
A Yes, air, a "bunch of us hoys was out there and the first sergeant
came there and the first sergeant —
Q Just answer the question. Did you stand outside of your "barracks
and listen to what was going on?
A Yes, sir, for awhile.
Q What did you do then?
A Before that the first sergeant came out and told us he didn't
want us to go down there. .: -:
Q Who was that first sergeant? /: ,
A Cahral. r
Q When Sergeant Cahral went out and said he didn't want any of ;
you to go down there, what did you do?
A We all went in the "barracks. ^
Q Did he tell you to go In your "barracks?
A Yes, sir, he told us to go in our "barracks if we didn't want to
fall out for formation.
Q When Sergeant Ca'bral told you to go inside your harrackB if you
didn't want a formation, you state you went inside?
10:3
(MATHS)
DECLASSIFIED
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Authority
'o3 3
By^NARA Dits/^^j^2^
222
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A Tee, sir. ^v
Q Who was Inside the 1)111111136 that you recognized?
A I don*t know. There was a guy "by the name of Herman Johnson,
he was In there Ironing and there was another guy, I don*t know those
guys.
Q When you were on the outside of the building, didn't you see
a hunch of the memherB of your company running In the direction of the
mess hall?
A No, sir, I dldn»t.
Q You didn't see anyone leave the "barracks and go toward Building 7OO?
A No, sir, no one. The hoys was standing out there until the
sergeant came and run them out.
Q As you looked toward Building 7OO while you stood outside,
didn't you see a "bunch of people running in the direction of Building 7OO?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't see anyone running that way?
A No, sir.
Q After you went hack to the harracks, what did you do?
A Finished packing my hag and getting my equipment together and
everything for the next morning, putting on my leggins and everything.
Q Why did you put your leggins on at night?
A We put them on hecaase sanetimee you sleep late and we have to
he out at 8 o'clock and we put our leggins on and are ready to roll out
when the whistle hlows to get up.
Q You put your leggins on so you will he ready to go to work at
8 o'clock? '
A We get ready to he out here.
Q What time do you get up?
A 5:1^5.
Q Why, Mathis, don't you have time to put your leggins on from
5:U5 to 8 o'clock?
A That was my idea.
Q You were the only one that wore leggins?
A No, sir, I wasn't the only one.
iO
(MATHIS)
DECLASSinED
Authority .Z^5^-^-^
123
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Q Several of you wore legglns vhlle you slept?
A Yes, BiTf lots of them.
Q That particular night seTeral of you vore legglns?
A Tes^ sir.
Q After you put on your legglns, what did you do?
A Just putting on equipment, rolling ny pack and Just getting
everything ready, my clothing and things that you couldn't do "before
"because each time the whistle would "blow and you would have to fall
out.
Q Why was the whistle "being "blown on the night of August iktht
A It wasn't at night. It was the next day. ,
Q That night, the question I asked was what were you doing that
night after you put your legglns on?
A I was checking It after I got my legglns on and got everything
ready and I went to hed.
Q And went to sleep?
A Sure.
Q After you had gone to "bed and while you were In the "barracks,
what woke you up?
A I wouldn't say, the next thing I heard was Jeeps and cars.
Q
there?
A
Q
A
k
A
*Q
A
Did the Jeeps pass In the vicinity of the "barracks going down
I seen a couple of them that came by frcm that way.
Who was In the Jeeps you saw?
I don't know.
MP's?
I guess It was.
Did you see the MP's In there?
I didn't see them.
Q They came into this area and passed your "building and went Into
the Italian Area?
A They was coming out from the area.
Q Did you see them go into the area?
tewft'*'-"
J\M^
l'}Z
(MATHIS)
tJ
DECLASSIFIED
Authority'
pS^
By^NARA Dite//Zj^^
22k
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A No, Blr. ''■"-■•;;.. ;K; 7'*.
Q The first time you sav the Jeeps vas when they vere coming out?
A I didn't see that. I was In ted and they ceone. I dldn»t know
which way they were going.
Q How did you know they were Jeeps If you didn't see them?
A I know a Jeep, the sound of a Jeep from an automohlle.
Q Just a Jeep came out of that area? "
A I saw It come hack.
Q I thought you said you didn't see them?
A I heard It.
Q I thought you said you saw them.
A I heard them.
Q But you know only Jeeps came up and down that road?
A That Is all I heard. Jeeps.
Q
A
Did you hear any ambulances?
I don't know, I guess all I heard was Jeeps, they might have
"been ambulances. We hoard there had "been ambulances down there the next
morning.
Q How did you know?
A I said I guess, I didn't know It.
Q What are you talking about now? You didn't know what was going
on In that area?
A I know the sound of a Jeep when It came "by the barracks hecaiise
I was sleeping ahout the third hed from the door.
Q You state definitely you coiddn't hear the ambulance or several
ambulances?
A I didn't hear the ambulance.
Q You ijust heard Jeeps?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't hear them go In the area?
A I heard cars going down in the area there.
Q Did you hear them going in the area?
i'3-L
(MATHIS)
Authorit)'
DECLASSIHED
By^U^'A*^ Date//^
12l^ A
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A From the other road, the Jeeps come down that way, cars, or
SOBS thing, I don't know what they were or whether they come In the
area.
Q I want to get your testimony straight. You testified you could
hear the sound of a Jeep?
A Yes, sir, they wasn't far from me. This road comes In "back of
here and I was sleeping not far from there.
Q You have testified that you heard sooasthlng going In the area
"but you couldn't tell whether It was a Jeep or not?
A That Is right,
Q But then of course you state definitely you didn't hear the
Jeep going Into the area?
A I didn't know which direction It was going in the Italian
Area, It was going on hy.
Q But you heard the Jeep passing going toward the area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Several of them?
A Yes, sir, "because that road goes "by the area, leads that way.
Q Now, after this fight had "been going on and after you had stood
outside and listened to it going on in the Italian Area and after you had
gone into your "barracks, did you see any memher of your company or your
"barracks come hack into the area?
A Ho, sir, hecause all the hoys In my harracks was there.
Q Everyhody in your harracks was there?
A All the hoys, I looked at the hunks, hut I wasn't paying any
attention, hut I can rememher.
Q But you didn't pay much attention to the heds there in your
harracks when you went hack there to see if everyhody was present?
A No, sir, I didn't think ahout checking up on the hoys or anything
like that.
Q Why do you say everyhody was present.
A Everyhody I Imow their faces, everyhody was there.
Q You Just went around after you were in the harracks and looked
at every hed to see that the men you knew were there?
A No, sir.
_■ • MS w »« « wm* * t^-
1
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(MATEES)
v:^m^-
.^f/TAy
DECLASSinED
Authorin' .252^^-
By,^NARA Date/:^1^2!S
' ^•lUMmmmMtmitmlltmmimm
125
GQftPfOT?NT I A L
''tW**
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Q Why do you say everybody you knew were in the "barracks?
A Well, they was.
Q Did you check?
A Because I was standing hy the heater and a guy was ironing clothes
and there weren't hut four in the "barracks I know.
Q You dldnft see anyone who weren't members of the company to
which you "belong or the "barracks to which you were assigned that came
hack into the area after the fight was over?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Did you hear any conversation any of them had after the fight
was over concerning their part in it?
A No, sir.
Q Have you since that day, August lUth, 19'*4, heard any members
of your company or the 650th tell what part they played in the fight?
A No, sir, all I heard them talking about is they got them in the
stockade for nothing.
Q You didn't hear any"body say they were down there?
A Only two "boys said they were down there.
Q Who was that?
A Foy Montgomery and Slick.
Q Curry?
A Yes, sir.
Q Both Montgomery and CvuT^y say they were down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did they say?
A He said he hit--
Q Who said that?
A One of the hoys.
Q Which one?
A Slick. He told me he couldn't catch him or he would hit him.
Q He couldn't catch the fellow?
A Yes, sir.
fFf©€N:a&L - -v.
(MATHIS)
126
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DECLASSIFIED
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Q Did he say he hit him or what he hit him with?
A No, sir, he didn't say.
Q Did he say he had hit him and the second time he tried to
hit him—
A Yes, sir—
Q ~ he couldn't catch him?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Montgomery say he did?
A He didn't say what he did, he Just said he was down where the
fighting was.
Q Now, there were other fellows down there that hit fellows.
A I don't doubt it.
Q I mean there are others that you heard say they, were there
■besides Montgomeiry and Curry.
A No, sir, there weren't anyone but those two boys said they was
there .
Q Of all those boys in the guard house they are the only two
boys that say they were there?
A Yes, sir.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
that?
Q
A
Q
A
Who said they hanged the Italian?
Weren't nobody said that.
No one told you about the hanging party?
No, sir, those boys wouldn't do nothing like that.
That is right, they are not going to tell you.
Nobody wouldn't confess that.
The boys that were in that hanging party are not going to mention
I don't know, they might.
They are not going to mention it to you?
I don't guess they would.
Had you been there possibly they would?
Possibly they would.
"ZS^M^^^^&J^QJ^^
(MATHIS)
DECLASSIFIED
A uthority _Z._^S^
By^NARA Date//^.^:25'
127
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Q Did you see Luther Larkin that night?
A I don't know Luther Larkin.
Q Johnnie Simmons, do you know him?
A Johnnie Simmons?
Q Yes, sir.
A Johnnie Simmons, I don't know.
Q Who wer« the four members in your "beLrracks you knew?
A Thomas Battle, Herman Johnson, Lester Foshee, and the other
"boy, he is gone.
Q After you and Thomas Battle took the girls "back up to the
hus, did you return to your "barracks together?
A Yes, sir, we came "back together.
Q Did you stay together that night?
A Yes, sir.
Q Thomas lives in the same "barracks and you saw Thomas all during
the fight?
A Yes, sir, we were right "by each other, standing looking down
that way.
Q Did you and Thomas discuss the fight as it was happening?
A No, sir, there wasn't nothing, we looked and the "boys were
really tearing up things down there.
Q Did anyone in your harracks want to go down there and see what
was going on?
A Yes, sir, that is when the first sergeant came and soneone
wanted to go down and see what was going on.
Q Who was that?
A2 I don't know who that was.
Q You stayed with them and started out?
A I didn't.
Q Who started out?
A One of the guys.
Q Do you know who started to go down there?
A I wouldn't know him unless I see his face. That is when the first
(MATHS)
,^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority 23S^k^^-—
By,^NARA Date/z^.y^
■MMMOMM
128
^CDNFrDZNTIAL #
V
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call vae.
Q Who were the "boys you talked to when you were gettlag ready
to go to bed?
A I didn't definitely talk to anybody.
Q Didn't you talk to anyone, Jones, or Lester Fooshee or
Charles Reeves?
A Charlie Reeves, yes, sir.
Q Did you talk to others there?
k I talked to Charlie Reeves when he was putting on his clothes,
his OD's.
Q Was he getting ready to go to the area?
A He didn't put on his clothes to go down there. He was putting
on his OD's when I saw him.
Q Where was he going?
A To town I guess.
Q It was 11 o'clock then?
A Sir, it wasn't that time when I seen him.
Q You testified before Major Manchester when you went to bed, which
is now being placed as during the fight, you talked to Reeves. Now, you
say that it was previous to that time that you saw Reeves.
A I told them before it was about dark when I saw him putting on
his clothes.
bed?
Q Then you didn't see Reeves when he was getting ready to go to
No, sir. Reeves was gone then.
Q On a previous examination which he made, he asked you the following
question and you toade the following answer. Question: Do you know the
name of any of the boys you talked to whll'=^ getting ready to go to bed?
Answer: There was George Johnson, Lester Relsh and Charlie Reeves.
A No, sir, I didn't tell him that, I saw Charlie Reeves when he
was going to town, they got it wrong there.
Q Didn't you want to go to- the area where the fight was going on?
A. No, sir, I didn't want to go down there. I had no business down
there .
^¥l?AiL^
(MATEIS)
.J^
129
•• ^jC^WB^^^Ei^^w^iAL. ^P
DECLASSinED
Authority _Z^S^^^-^—
■■■ m liin'oWMMtlWMMItlWIIIHWW—
1
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Q You had no business down there?
A That is right.
Q Did Battle want to go down there?
A No, sir, he didn't want to go to the fight.
Q Neither you or Battle wanted to go and you didn't go?
A That Is right.
Q You testified that Curry told you he hit an Italian once and when
he tried to hit him a^ain the fellow ran?
A That is right.
Q Had you known Curry "before this date?
A He was shipped in from Camp George Jordan.
Q Is Curry a good friend of yours?
A Yes, sir, he is a pretty good friend, I seen him once in awhile
"but I didn't know his name until he came over here. I have been seeing
him all the time.
Q On the night of August \k%h, did you see an ai7
A No, sir, I didn't see an ax,
Q You didn't have an ax with you?
A With me?
Q Yes.
A No, sir, I didn't have an ax.
Q Didn't you have an ax with you that night?
A I didn't have an ax in ray pack.
Q Didn't you have an ax in your pack?
A No, sir, I had a shovel in my pack.
Q Did you have an ax at any time during that night?
A No, sir, I didn't, I had no ax.
Q As you stood up there near your harracks, could you see the light
In the Italian orderly room?
A I don't think I seen the light.
Q Couldn't you see the light in the orderly room building from where
you stood?
{MATHIS)
130
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■WHMMWIMMIMIMM
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A No, sir, I could see as far as the moss hall and I could
see some parts of the area, hut I didn't see the orderly room from the
other place.
Q You couldn't see the orderly room?
A No, sir, I couldn't see the orderly room and no light shining
from the orderly room.
Q Did you ever see that ax hefdre?
A Yea, sir, before when I came up here.
Q That is the first time you had seen It when you came up here and
testified hefore Major Manchester?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many licks would you have to take with that ax to knock
a door down?
A I don't know, I haven't tried it.
•
Q Are you sure you haven't?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have any witnesses that will testify that you did not
knock that door down that night?
A The guy that was with me that night, Thomas Battle.
Q Who else?
A Herman Johnson.
Q Where is Herman, is he out there now?
A No, sir, he Is out at the stockade.
Q Who else?
A George L. Johnson.
Q Is he here?
A Yes, sir.
Q Vho else?
A Those three guya are the only -DerBons T know, we was laying there,
each of them, hecause the other guys was In 'b<s>d.
Q Who was in "bed?
A George Johnson.
(MATHIS)
.■*!>-®«'^
DECLASSIFIED
AuthoriU' _Z3S^^^——
By^NARA Date//^1^25'
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Q
A
But he saw you in the "building?
Yes, sir.
Q They will testify you were not in the Itailau Area, Herman Johnson
and Battle was with you while you were standing outside the huilding and went
"back with you and saw you go to "bed?
A Herman Johnson was ironing.
Q And Thomas Battle was with you all this time?
A Yes, sir, that is right.
Q Do you have anything else you would like to add to your testimony?
A No, sir.
loif
(MATHIS) (END)
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Q
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Ftirther testimony of Private Roy Daymond, taken
at Seattle, Washington on 27 Septeniber 19'»-'* "by Lieut.
Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was reminded he was still under oath and of
his rights as a witness under the 2Uth Article of War.
Do you Icnow EoTjert Mathis?
That is the oive I seen.
That Just well t out?
Yes, sir.
Where did you see him on the night of August lUth, I9UU?
I haven't saw him, that is the first time I saw him.
Q You didn't see him on the night of Aug\ist lUth, 19'*'«- In the
Italian Area?
A No, sir.
Q On the night of August ll+th, 19^^*+ when you saw Larklns run
up to Barracks 719 to get a whistle, did you later hear Larkin hlow
that whistle?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Didn't you hear the whistle heing hlown?
A Yes, sir.
Q And after you heard the whistle "being hlown you saw a group of
six or eight men moving toward the Italian Area?
A I did.
Q In this first group that moved up there, you have identified
Elva Shelton as a member of the first group?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you see what Siva had in his hand?
A I didn't see what It was, I didn't see nothing, hut It looked
like a little old stick in his hand, I don't know how large a stick
It was.
Q You saw Elva had a stick In his hand and went down to the Italian
(daymond)
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Yes, sir.
Q After going "behind Building 700, you hoard that group of six
or eight men start throwing stones against Building 708?
A I don't know what Tsuilding that is.
Q That is the first Italian "barracks? \. '■
A I guess so.
Q You heard that?
A I heard them throwing against a "building, I don't know what
"building.
Q But it was the individuals who were throwing the stones that went
in the first group of six or eight men that went into the Italian Area
on the night of August lUth, 19*^^?
A Yes, sir.
Q And among them was Elva Shelton, whom you knew well?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else in that first group did you know?
A I couldn't recall their name, I don't know them, it is dark
aroimd those "barracks there.
Q You saw them organize around Building 700 and saw them depart
from Building 700 and as they departed you recognized Elav Shelton as one
of them. Who else was there?
A I don't know their names, it was dark down there and you couldn't
see under all those trees.
Q Now, the aeGond group that left from the vicinity of Building
700 was composed of how many men?
A About nine or something like that.
Q Nine or ten?
A Yes, sir.
Q And among those you saw Luther Larkin?
A Yes, sir, he was among them. '
Q Luther was one of the foremost of those first boya to go down there?
A Yes, sir, he was willing to go.
■t f^i C
(DAYMOND)
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Q Hadn't Luther made a speech to the company "before the group
left?
A He said, "Montgomery got hit by the Italians, let's go down there."
Q And moh them?
A NO, Just go down and fight.
Q Just go down and fight them?
A Yes, sir.
Q In the second group besides Luther Larkin, who elsevwent
in the second group to the Italian Area? '
A I noticed William G. Jones.
Q He was in the second group?
A Yes, sir, he was with Luther Larkin.
Q Who else went down in the second group of nine or ten men with
Lsurkin and William G. Jones?
A I don't know, I don't recall their names there were so many,
practically all the companies were down there. After Larkin left Building
719 he went over in this little "barracks.
Q The second group went out with Larkin and Jones and you saw them
leave?
A YeB, sir.
Q Who else did you see "besides Jones and Larkin?
A I don't know, practically all the company, when I got ready to
leave practically all of them were down there.
Q Now, in the third group you went?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when you got ready to go you got a club?
A No, sir, I didn't have a club.
Q What did you get?
A I didn't have nothing.
Q What did some of the other boys have?
A They had rocks and sticks and all those things.
Q Out of that group, the third group, name all of them that you
can.
1017
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(DAYMOND)
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A Name all the TDoye I saw?
Q How many did you see in that third group?
A I don't know all of them. There was "but two of us I know,
me and George, we was last.
Q Addison George? He was in the third group, you and Addison
George went to the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
What did Addison carry in his hand?
Nothing.
Who else went with you two?
No "body.
You mean Just the two of you went down there?
That is all I saw.
By the time you and Addison George got into the Italian Area
nearly the whole company was down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the first man you recognized after entering the Italian
Area other than Addison George and yourself was who?
A Rohert Grasham and King.
Q Where did you first see Grasham?
A Well, he was in that "building, that orderly room.
Q And when you saw Gresham he and King were talking, were they?
A Yes, sir.
Q And King was telling Grasham to stop the fighting?
A I imagine so.
Q And Grasham was arguing with King?
A Yes, sir, he was.
Q And then what did you see Grasham and King do as you stood in
the "building?
A They were still talking.
Q Then where did you go?
A After I left I went around on the side to the door that faces this
1C18
(daymond)
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this side here and that Is where I saw Dave Walton and Frank Hughes.
Q When you saw Walton and Hughes, what were they doing?
A They was coming out of the door.
Q Coming out of Building 715?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they have clubs in their hands?
A A stick and a knife.
Q One of them had a knife?
A That was this hoy.
Q Walton had the club?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Frank Hughes had the knife?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see the knife so that If you saw it again you would he
able to recognize it?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see the handle on the knife?
A No, sir, I didn't see nothing hut the "blside.
Q He had the knife in hie hand?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was it a long knife?
A About that long.
Q About a 10 inch hlade?
A I guess so, I don't know how long it was in inches, ahout that
long, one big thick hlade.
Q Was the hlade hloody?
A I didn't see no blood,
Q What kind of a club did Walton have?
A He had something about like that.
Q A 2-by-U or a little bigger?
A About as wide as the corner of that door, on the side.
-Bl
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.4- v^
(DAYMOKD)
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Q It would "be a 2-"by-l)-?
A Something like the legs on this table, it wasn't that thick.
Q And ahout as long as the legs on the tahle?
A I wouldn't say that long.
Q About 5 feet long?
A Ahout 2|.
Q Now, who else did you see in Building 715 as you were in the
vicinity of that huilding?
A After I saw Walton and Hughes I came "back and that is when the
MP's came.
Q Who else did you see that night that you recognized who had
"been in the Italian Area?
A Those are the only four I saw, Grasham, Klng^ Frank Hughes,
and Walton, only four of them.
Q After you left the vicinity of Building 700, did you see Larkins
or Jones in the Italian Area while you were there?
A I didn't see either one of them.
Q Did you hear those Individuals after you returned from the Italian
Aree. tell of their participation in the fight?
A After I gets hack from the orderly room Jones was in front of me
and he didn't say noth.?.ng ahout it.
Q Did you talk to Jones or Larkln about what they did in the fight?
A No, sir.
I You haven't discussed it since the time it happened?
A No, sir.
1C20
(daymond) (end)
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Testimony of Private Johnnie Ceaser, taken at
Seattle, Weshington on 27 September 19U1^ "by Lieut.
Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, serial number, and organization.
A Private Johnnie Ceaser, 56792775, 650th Port Company,
Fort Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2l«-th
Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of August lU, V^W were you present with your
company at Fort Lawton?
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q What was the first warning or the first intimation that you had
of the fight that went on that night between the Italians and your company?
A The first I heard of it was a fellow came and told-- he said,
"Everyboey out."
Q Everybody outside?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was that Luther Larkin?
A No, sir, that was William G. Jones.
0, And he said, "Evei-yhody out"?
A He came in and he said, "Everybody out, there is a fight down there,"
and I didn't pay it any mind.
Q Did he say, "Everybody out"?
A He said that they was fighting. He did say who was fighting,
he said, "There Is a fight."
you?
After you heard Jones say that you kept rolling your pack, didn't
Yes, sir.
Later you went outside?
No, sir, the whistle blowed.
cBmHben^thal
1
(CEASER)
DECLASSIFIED
A uthori^y Y-S^f^^-^—^
By^NAR.4 Date/^^^3
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Q Had you seen anyone come In the tarracks and ask for a whistle
previous to that time?
A No, sir, I didn't.
. Q Do you know who "blew the whistle?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Which is your "barracks?
A 668.
Q You live in 668?
A Yes, sir, that is right.
Q, And you were in that tarracks when William G, Jones came through
and said, everybody out, let's go down and fight the Italians or Just go
down and fight?
A He said, "Everyhody out, there is a fight."
Q Now, did everyhody turn out of Barracks 668?
A No, sir.
Q How many were out?
A There didn't nohody go out.
Q You mean that upon the warning for everybody to turn out, there
is a fight, no one left the barracks?
A .Nobody went out at the present time.
Q
A
0.
A
Q
A
Did Jones then leave the barracks?
Yes, sir, be went out.
Do you know where he went?
No, sir, I don't.
Now, after Jones had left how mftny men followed him?
Didn't no one follow him that I could see.
Q Later on how many men left the bariacks and went toward the
area where the fight was going on?
A Sir, after that, shortly after that the whistle blew.
Q Where was the whistle being blown that you heard?
A It was down about 719 •
0, And when the whistle blew everybody turned out?
tlFei^FIDEN^lAU
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(CEASEP)
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A Everyljody didn't go out then.
Q Approximately how many went in the direction the whistle was
tlowing?
A I can't say exactly.
Q Half the harracks?
A Ho, sir, ahout 7 or 8 or 9«
Q Seven, eight, or nine out ot Barracks 668 went down to where
the whistle was "being "blown?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you name those that went down there?
A I don't know exactly,
Q You know some of them.
A WoGdln, Frank Hughes and Werdell Cox.
Q Frank Hughes, V?llace Woodln and Wajt-do:] Cox left Building 668
and went directly out when the whititle hlew?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you leave at the same time the others left?
A Shortly after they did.
Q As you went between 668 and Tip, did you see other members of
your company or the other companies that were going toward the ai-ea of
Building ';'19?
A I didn't see them because I went straight tc where the ambulance
was.
Q Now, after you left Building 668, where did you go?
A I went to the ambulance, they were all crowded around the
ambulance.
Q W^iS the ambulance in front of Building 719?
A Yes, sir.
719?
Q When you arrived at the ambulance, wl-iat was happening in front of
A They were ell crowded ai-ound and they had Montgomery" iri the
ambulance .
Q William D.?
^.«-MPT=i-i*^Vi
eQf^if1©€HT%iU.^
i H'-s
'w L O
(CEASER)
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A Yes, air.
Q Is he a member of your company?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was the aiabulance they were putting Willie in a jeep?
A It was an ambulance.
Q Vhat did they do with him after they put him in the ambulance?
A Taken him to the hospital.
Q You saw the amhulance leave and go to the hospital?
fi I don't know whether it went to the hospital.
Q But you saw it leave?
A Yes, sir.
0 After the ambulance left, what happened in the area adjacent
to Building 719?
A They was starting ai'ound In front.
Q Wes there a lot of talking?
A Yes, sir.
Q And a lot of arguing about going down and cleaning out the
Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q V/het did they say, they were going down and mot the Italians?
A No, sir, they were all going down.
Q What did they say they were going to do?
A I don't know, they say, let's go down there.
Q Who said that?
A I don't know.
Q Was it luther Lerkln?
A I don't know who it was.
Q Wps it Roy Ceymond?
A I don't know who It was,
Q You don't remember who said that?
A No, sir.
. , - , 4 -...^.-/.*;r'i»:'t::-,-' T'^it't
" CO^tBER^L^l^
1 1
24
(CEASEB)
IJ-
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Authority
-03 3
By,^NARA Date/;^
MlMN
-;;-sl
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Q
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700 and
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700 and
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But some Individual said, let's go to the Italian Area?
Yes, air.
Vhat happened then?
They was still arguing on that down there.
Was there a hunch of them already in the Italian Area?
Yes, sir.
Did you see thftt first group that left from the vicinity of
went down to the Italian Area?
No, sir.
Did you see the second group that went from the vicinity of
went down in the Italian Area?
Yes, air.
In the second group, who did you recognize?
No one, "because there was ahout three of us together.
Did you go in the second group?
Yes, sir, "between them.
Between the first and second?
Yes, sir.
VOio were the other two that went with you?
Warden Cox and myself and some other fe>llow from the 597th.
The 578th you mean?
Yes, sir.
Was he a noncommissioned officer?
Yes, sir, he was.
Was his name Sergeant Jones?
I don't know Els neme.
Would you know him If you saw him again?
I guess I would.
Was he a T/K?
He had Staff Sergeant's stripes.
/
Q Do /'ou know what Job he has in the 578th?
.'■-*Si.itfr,-Ciw^»^ ■.■«^-t-,,.
■ ^ i.. V
(CEASEE)
U-
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DECLASSIHED
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By^NARA Date//^1^2S
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A No, Blr, I don't.
Q What weapons or clube did you three take with you?
A I didn't have anything at all.
Q What did the othfeseehaye?
A Nothing.
Q The three of you went together, hut there were others In the
same group, weren't there?
A Yeo, sir, there was,
Q Who were they?
A I don't know, there were a lot down there.
Q I don't mean those, I mean the ones that went up there or started
to go up there?
A. I didn't recognize them.
Q There were only three of you that went in the second group?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, did you three proceed directly to the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir, I stopped about 20 feet from the orderly room while
they was talking there.
Q Twenty feet from Building 71??
A I guess so.
Q After you left the area of Buildiiig 700 and "before you got to
the orderly room, who did you see along the road?
A Those were the only ones I recognized,
Q You didn't see anyone "between Building 7OO and the orderly room
you knew except the two accompanying you?
A Yes, sir.
Q
What route did you and your companions take from the vicinity
of Building 700 to the orderly room?
A We vent straight down from our han-acks 719 up in their area.
Q Did you follow the road?
A Only one road goes down there.
Q You went from 7I9 across Virginia Avenue and followed Lawton ?.oad
"'BOf'viPfPtis'N^IAk
■!P2B
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(ceaseb)
■V-Vj'*
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DECLASSinED
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to a point opposite Building 115^
A Yes, sir, I guess so.
Q When you got to Building 715, who was the first man you saw
in the vicinity of that "building you recognized?
A The first man I recognized?
Q
A
Q
A
G
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Yes, sir.
The first man was Grasham.
Where was he when you first saw him inside the Italian Area?
Standing over "by the tent.
What was Rohert Grasham doing "by the tent?
I didn't see he was doing anything.
Did he have a cluh in his hand?
Yes, sir, he did.
But you didn't see him ufling the cluh on anyone?
Ho, sir.
Who was the second man you saw?
Bichard King.
What was King doing when you saw him?
He was standing hy Grasham.
What was he doing as he was standing by Grasham?
Nothing.
Did he have a club in his hand?
Yes, sir.
Who else did you see, the third man in the area?
Robert Sanders.
What was Robert Sanders doing when you first saw him?
Coming around the side of the tent.
Did he have a club in his hand?
I couldn't recognize, I couldn't see.
Did he have a knife in his hand?
I couldn't see.
-eBNt?.a£fei;i;JAi-
097
(CFASER)
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Area?
Q
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A
Did he have any weapon in his hand?
I couldn't see.
Did you have any conversation with him?
No, sir.
Who was the fourth man you saw?
Ei chard Barher.
Where was Richard Barher when you saw him inside the Italian
Near Sanders.
Was he talking to Sanders?
They were laughing together.
He and Sanders were talking and la\ighing?
Yes, sir.
Did Barber have a club?
I didn't see any.
What were they talking about?
I don't know.
But they were talking and laughing?
Yes, sir
Did you later see either Sanders or Grasham?
No, sir, I didn't.
Q Who was the fifth man you saw in the Italian Area after you
arrived in the vicinity of Building 715?
A The fifth man was in front of the orderly room, William G.
Jones.
Q What was William G. Jones doing when you first saw him in
front of Building 713?
A Throwing in the window.
Q He was throwing rocks through the window?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many rocks did you see William G. Jones throw the window of
Building 715 on the night of August lUth?
A Two.
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Q
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Did you see him hit anyone?
No, sir.
But he did hreak out the glass?
It wasn't there.
He was throwing where it had previously heen?
I didn't see anyone.
Q The rocks which Jones was throwing through the window of Building 715
did not "break the glass "because there wasn't any glass there?
A Yes, sir.
Q But he did throw it straight through the window?
A Yes, sir.
Q He didn't hit the outside of the huilding?
A No, sir.
Q The rocks went through the window into the "building?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you didn't see them hit anyone at all?
A No, sir.
Q Could you see anyone in the path of the rocks?
A No, sir, I couldn't.
Q \Vho was the sixth man you saw in the Italian Area?
A About that time a corporal hollered, "I em an American soldier."
Q That was the corporal that was Inside the room?
A Yes, sir.
Q ^ind who did you ohserve him hollering that to?
A He was Just hollering.
Q You could hear him or see him?
A I could hear him.
You couldn't see him?
A No, sir.
;, I show you a floor plan of Building 715 and ask you to point out
for me the place where the corporal stood and hollered, "I am an American
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soldier"?
A He was standing in front of Door A.
Q You coiild hear the American or someone inside of Room X
telling the attacking soldiers he was an American soldier?
A Yes, sir.
A
Q
closed?
A
not?
Q
A
Q
A
Could you see to whom the person was talking to?
No, sir.
As you looked through Door A toward Door D, was Door D open or
This is supposed to he the front-- it was open.
Do you know whether it had heen chopped down at that point or
I don't know, sir.
Did you see anyone chopping on that door?
No, sir.
Q Who did you see enter the door after you heard this soldier
inside Boom X say, "I am an American soldier"?
A I went in there.
Q You went in?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before I take you into the room, I want to find out who was
the seventh man you saw outside the "building as you stood there?
A outside the building?
Q Yes, as you stood outside.
A Dave Walton.
Q Where did you see Dave Walton?
A He was in the room, in the door.
Q Dave V/alton was standing in Door A as you observed him from the
outside of that door?
A Yes, sir, that is right.
% >4iat was Dave doing when you first observed him.
A He was pushing the crowd trying to get through.
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Q Dave was trying to push the men in the isle "between Doors A and D
into Room X?
A That is right.
Q And what did Dave have in his hand?
A He had a club,
Q Do you know what kind of a clu'b he carried?
A No, sir, I don't, it was a stick.
Q Did he have a knife in his hand?
A I didn't see it.
Q Now, after you saw Dave, who else did you observe in the isle
"between Doors A and D.
A Wallace Woodin, Dave Walton, and Frank Hughes.
Q All three of these soldiers whom you have just named were in
"between Doors A and D as you first ©"bserved them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were all three of them trying to force their way Into Room X
through Door D?
A There was a "bunch of them I couldn't recognize, mayte about
fifteen of them.
Q When you saw Wallace Woodin and Hughes at this point, what weapons
did they have in their hands?
A Frank Hughes had a clu'b and Wallace Woodin had a clu"b.
Q Did either one of them have a knife?
A I didn't see any, no, sir.
Q Where did you see Willie Ellis?
A Willie arrived when I first came down, he was a pretty good
distance from the orderly room, standing looking.
Q You say Willie was standing looking when you first saw hin?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you ever see Willie do anything to the Italians?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see Willie have a club or a weapon in his hand?
A No, sir, I didn't see it If he had one.
EQI^iinQENTIAL
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Q Who else did you see standing "between Door And D on the night
of August ll^th as you made your way through that isle into Room X?
A They're the only two I could recognize.
Q Did you then enter through Door A?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Did you go into Rocan X?
A Yes, sir, I pushed my way through. >
Q As you pushed yo^jr way thi-ough the crowd "between Door A and D,
did you recognize any others in there "besides those you have already
named?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Were you successful In pushing youw way through the crowd that
stood in "between Doors A and D into Room X?
A I was goiag to try and get this Anerlcan soldier, which I did.
Q Then you pushed your way through the crowd that stood between
Door A and D and entered Boom X where the American corporal was who asked
for help?
A That la right.
Q When you got inside Eooli X you undoubtedly saw the colored
soldiers la the room at that time?
A I didn't see the a.
Q After you entered Door D, who did you see itandiug in the door?
A In the door?
Q Yes.
A There was a crowd and I wasn't paying any attention except to get
to the American soldier and he said, "I am an Aaerlean soldier," and
I caught him by the arm and I said, "This is an American soldier,
don't hit him."
Q Who was It that hit you on the arm?
A David Wa3ton-
Q Wh'-'re was Dave Walton standing and striking at this American
soldier and hitting you? Where was Deve atanding when he was making the
effort to strike hin, the American soldier, you vere attempting to
remove out of the "bvxildlng?
A The door was coming out and he was standing in here, he was
.'> -^ o
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Standing inside Roo» X ^J Door D.
Q How many times did David Walton strike at the American as you
were trying to get out?
A One time.
Q Did he hit the soldier?
A No, sir.
Q Did he hit you?
A Over my left shoulder.
Q He didn't strike tha American soldier?
A No, sir.
Q Who else did you observe as you went through the isle "between
Door A. and D leading the American soldier?
A I didn't chserve anyone coming out, I know I was trying (to keep
from getting hurt myself.
Q While you were Inside Poom X, did you observe a large number of
wounded soldiers, either American or Italians, laying on the floor in that
room?
A Ko, sir, there was one Italian In there and he wasn't laying
cut.
Q
A
Q
A
He was standing?
Yes, sir.
He was bloody, wasn't he?
He waan't bloody.
Did you see anyone in Room Y while you were In Boom X.
I didn't see them.
Q Did you see any colored soldiers standing in Boom Z while you
were in Room X attempting to rescue this American soldier?
A No, sir.
Q, Now, >}.8 you led this American soldier out t/irough Door A, did
anyone else who stood in the Isle between Doors A and D sttempt to strike
hln other than Dave Walton?
A No, sir.
Q Did you have any trouble getting out through the isle in there
: ^ '-\ f^
(csaser)
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"bj Door A? .
A No, sir.
Q Who did you see after leaving Door A?
A I didn't recognize anyone when I was going out. I went out
next to the last barracks and I released him to another fellow, I think
Willie Ellis and he taken him someplace, I released him around this
"barracks ,
Q You lead this wounded man, whom you said you rescued from Room
X and took him through the Isle from Door D to A outside the "building,
then further led him to the vicinity of Barracks 708 and you turned him
over to another colored soldier whom you "believe to "be Willie Ellis?
A Yes, sir.
Q What Instructions did you give Willie when you turned him
over to the American soldier?
A I didn't say anything to him, I don't think.
5 Did you see what Wil2ie did with him?
A He went around this "barracks.
Q He vent dowti "by Barracks 708 in the direction of your "barracks?
A Yes, sir, up the hill.
Q Is that the last titap you saw this wounded soldier that night?
A The wounded soldier?
Q Yes, sir, the one you had brought out?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you go after you released the wounded soldier?
A I went back in the area and the first sergeant wea out thore
and he made us go back in the barracks.
Q Why did you leave the area when the fight was going on and after
yoa had released the American soldier to Ellis in the vicinity of Building
708?
A It was about over then.
Q Had the MP's arrived?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't want to stay there after the MP's arrived?
A J. didn't mind being there after the MP's arrived, there wasn't
ctTi^Fn5i?hH=^^^
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anybody down there, they were all leaving out.
Q Who, as you stood in the vicinity of Building 708 did you see
leaving the area whom you recognized?
A I didn't recognize anyone.
Q When you left the vicinity of Building 708 and stood hy Building
700 you didn't recognize any colored soldiers leaving the Italian Area? ,
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q After leaving Building 715 by the way of Door A, what route did
you take up to Building 708?
A I left "by the way of Door A and went in between the two tents
at the east end of Building 709 up to the stops which is east of Building
708 where I released the American soldier to Willie Ellis-- who I thlnlc
was Willie Ellis.
Q Have you and Willie talked about this fight that night?
A No, sir, I haven't.
■-. Q You and Willie didn't get together and say you would testify
to a certain thing on hov you rescued this man?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Do you know John Lee Hamilton?
A Yes. sir.
Q Where did , you see him that night?
A Over near the window by Jones.
Q At the window by Jones?
A Yes, sir.
Q Wes he throwing through the window?
A At the present time I don't think he was throwing.
Q John Lee Hamilton was over at the other window?
A Yes, air.
Q Show me on the exhibit which T hand you and which is a floor
plan of Building 7I5 what window Jones was throwing through when you
saw him and which window Hamilton was standing at when you saw him.
A Jones was throwing through this window here.
(INVESTIGATINS OFFICSH: Pointing to the window on the south side of
IDENTiAl^.
(ceaser)
I.
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Building 713 which leads into Eocan E.)
Q Where did you see Hamilton?
A He was standing over here.
(investigating OFFICEE: Witness points to the southeast comer
of Building 715.)
Q What was he doing?
A I didn't see him, I didn't recognize him doing anything.
Q Did he have a club in his hand or any weapon while he was looking
through the window?
A No, sir, I didn't recognize it.
Q Did Hamilton assist you in anyway in rescuing the wounded soldier?
A No, sir, he didn't.
Q Do you know James Chandler?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was James that night?
A I didn't see him.
Q You didn't see him anywhere?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Do you know Eohert M&this?
A I don't know him, he is in the 651st I think.
Q Did you see Rohert that night?
A No, sir, I Just knew him since I have "been in the stockade.
Q Do you know Alvin Clark?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you first see Alvin on the night of the lUth?
A He was down here by the "bottom of the hill when I first went down
and I didn't see him any more.
Q rthat do you mean "by the bottom of the hill, was he standing
in the vicinity of Building 708 or "10?
A 710.
Q V/hat was Alvin doing?
:33S
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A Going around "by the "barracks.
Q Did he have a club in his hand?
A I don't remember.
Q Did he have any rocks?
A I didn't see any.
Q Did you later see him during the evening?
A I didn't see him any more.
Q Did you have any conversation with him when you met him?
A No, sir, I didn't.
C Do you know Chapman?
A I know him since I have "been in the guard house.
Q Did you see him on the night of August lUth down in the Italian
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Do you know Herman Johnson?
A Well, all the fellows in the 651st, I don't know them. I Just
met them since I have been in the guard house.
Q Did you see Herman on the night of August lUth in the Italian
A No, sir, I don't.
Q When you saw John Lee Hamilton, was he talking to anyone?
A No, sir, he wasn't talking now.
Q Was anyone standing there with him?
A Three or four of them.
Q You don't recall who they were?
A No, sir.
Q Do you own a knife?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q You don't own a knife?
A No, sir.
Q Did you have a knife in your possession on the night of August iHh,
V Vfl : si*l("*iv'i; a^;. ^
dDNFlDENTtaScU*^.
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(CEASER^
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No, sir.
Q Had you teen issued a knife?
A No, sir, only a GI knife.
Q Do you have it with you?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q I show you a knife, number 557, which is a 6 inch "blade and ask
you did you ever see that knife before?
A No, sir, I didn't see it, but I saw the ic&llfe later.
Q Where did you see it?
A Dave Walton had one that resembled it.
Q During the action on the night of August l^i-th, Walton had a
knife simileu: to this one?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you tell us whether this is the knife Walton had?
A No, sir.
Q Did it have a handle similar to this knife?
A That is what I am going hy, the black handle.
Q Ceaser, have you ever turned in a knife that belonged to you
or anyone else to any company officer or noncommissioned officer?
A No, sir, I haven't.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Do you know Lieutenant Kapitz?
Yes, sir.
Is he a Lieutenant in your company?
Yes, sir.
Did Lieutenant Kaptiz take a knife from your possession the day
following the riot?
A No, sir, he didn't.
Q If Lieutenant Kaptiz made an affidavit wherein he certified he
took this particular knife which I hand you from you the day following
the riot, his affidavit is in error; is that right?
A Yes, sir, he made an error, I never owned one of them knives.
1038
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Q
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Did he take this knife from you the dfiiy following the riot?
No, sir, he didn't.
You never owned this knife or a knife like it?
No, sir, I never have.
-BeNfieefsmAL,
\, 0 ^
(CEA3ER) (END)
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Testimony of Pvt Thomas Battle, taken at Seattle,
Washington on 27 September 19^U hy Lieut. Colonel
Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your nam©, organization, and serial number.
A Thomas Battle, ^kh&jkk^, 6%Bt Port Company, Fort Lawton,
Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2ktb.
Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of August lUth, 19^h were you present with your
organization at Fort Lawton when the riot occurred hetween the colored
soldiers and Italians?
A Yes, sir, I was present after I came back from the service oluh.
Q Whore was the service cluh at Fort Lawton in reference to the
company eirea?
A Do you know where the chapel is?
0, Yes.
A It is the one acrOss from there.
Q The "big service club?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is down by the hospital?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you left the service club you went back to your company?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what barracks do you sleep?
A 672.
Q When you arrived back at your barracks, was there anything
unusual happening in the barracks?
A No, sir.
Q What was the first warning or notice you had of this fl^ht going
J 040
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on In the Italian Area?
A The first I knowed it was going on-- lot's see-- myself,
Robert Mathle and Leon Wheeloy and a couple other guys, I can't think
of their names, we were on our way from the "bus stop when I first knew
about it.
Q You were coming back from the bus stop to the barracks when you
first learned there was a fight going on between the Italians and the
colored soldiers?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then what did you do?
A We comes here, across the road and walks inside the barracks
and pulled off my coat and shirt and puts It on the bed and walks out
by the steps and the first sergeant was standing in front of the
barracks.
Q Who is the first sergeant?
A Sergeant Cabral.
Q. And who accompanied you as you went from the inside to the outside
of the building?
A You mes-n who was with me at that time?
A
Yes.
Several was behind me, I don't remember who that was.
Q As you stood outside the building what did you hear or observe?
A Well, at that time I o<une back, the first sergeant said to go
back in the barracks, he said, ""If you don't go back I will call a
formation and have a roll call and drill up and down the street," and
about that time the MP's was taking over, they was trying to get the boys
to go back in their bairacks?
Q What MP's was that. Battle?
A I don't know exactly what MP's it was, but there was something
like a squad.
Q They had come up in the vicinity of Building 672, had they?
A YrB, sir.
Q And they tried tc get the boys back in their banracke?
A They were trying to get the boys back in the barracks in this
company in back of us.
GQN4^»EfcEEJA
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A Yes, sir.
Q Thoy went up near this tuilding, they were In the vicinity of
Building 719 and 720?
A They was down in the Italian Area?
Q The MP's were?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, let go tack "before the time the MP's tried to get the new
company "back in their "bsu^racks and to get them out of the Italian Area,
you state you were in your "barracks and that you went outside?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you don't know who accompanied you outside the building?
A No, sir.
Q Where did you see Mathis at this time?
A Mathis, he and I together went in the b.arracks.
Q And after that you didn't see him any more?
H No, sir.
Q And as you were standing out "by the "barracks the first sergeant
told you to get "back Inside or he was going to drill the company?
A Yea, air.
Q Did you see anyone from the first warning of this fight _, leave the
area of Barracks 672 and go toward where the noise was going on?
A No, sir.
Q Did anyone leave Building 672 and go toward the Italian Area after
the fight started?
A No, sir. I want 'o t«ti.l the truth. I went to the tuo stop and
I didn't have a watch to tell the tine, tut It was a"bout 11:J,0 or quarter
to twelve.
Q When you left the "bus atop?
A No, sir, that Is when the two Mr '3 etoppecl ue on the road a.nd told
us "boys it was after time for glrla to "be on the post, it should "be 9 o'clock
and 't vtig five rdnutes until bus time, and the MP says, "Sign this pass,"
£.nd In a"bout IC or 1? minutes the "'•jus came and therj got on the bus and I goes
bac'/ to the area.
f; It must have 'oeei? after 12 o'clock when j'ou and Mathis arrived
caNRDE?Nrrmfc:25..,.
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"bact In your area after taking the girls to th© "bus.
A It was.
Q Nov, you had left the area going up to th« bue stop about 11:30
or ll:'lv5?
A It just have teen soniewhoi'e atout that time.
4 Hov did you eetiinate the time?
A Well, the guy that was with us, he said, "It is past 11 o'clock,"
when we left the one company you called.
Q The 578th?
A The 578th mess hall.
Q You had "been there In the 578th mees hal3?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is building 7OO?
A I don't '•cnov the num'oer.
Si Then you wei'e In Building 700, t>e 578th aieas hal3 ; until after
11 o'clock?
A Yes, air.
Z vrnen vou left the mess hall, did you see in the vicinity of that
luilding a large nianter of individuals gathered there?
A There was xiractically a hundred and some odd In the streets.
^ ivliat were they doitig?
.4 Some were ineide the mess hall and some were outeide.
Q What were they doing?
A They wasn't, doing anj'thlng. '
Wasn't there a d^eturcanoe atout Willl*i Montgomery getting hurt?
A I don't know.
Q Didn't you hear them talking about V1]l3e getting hit?
A No, sir.
C And they dii3n't name the man that got hi', cr who had hit him?
A Ko, f?ii-.
=' Did you talk to anj of the p^i^eons present in the vicinity of
Bu.'lding 700 as you were leaving and .^olng to the bu.s stop?
A Ko, eir, I dion't.
lC43
(TATTiy)
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Q When you were upon the steps of Building 672, you heard the
fight going on In the Itedlan Area?
A Yes, sir.
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Were glasses telng hroken?
Yes, sir.
And rocks heing thrown against hulldings?
Yes, sir.
Were people screaming?
Yes , sir.
And you were about 75 yards from the area?
I imagine so. I could see a guy chasing through the mess hall.
You could see a man running tlirough the mess hall?
Yes, sii'.
Could you see the individual that was being chased through the
?
It was an Italian.
And he was rvunning through the mess hall?
Yes, sir.
He was being cbs-Be<3- "by a colored soldier?
I didn't see anyone chasing him, but I did see them going through
How many did you see running through there?
Two.
You didn't see any colored soldiers chasing them?
No, sir.
Could you see the Italians in Building 7O8 behind the mess hall?
I could see only the comer of it.
Did that corner have a light on it?
Yeo, sir.
Around that corner, you could see the Italians running?
No, sir.
iC44
(HAITI E)
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Q Could you see the colored eoldiers chasing them around there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the colored soldiers had cluhs chasing them around the
comer of that huildlng?
A I couldn't say that.
Q Also from your position you could see one comer of 709?
A Yes, sir.
Q At that place there was a light on?
A There was.
Q And you also saw some Italians running around that building?
• A Yes, sir. ,
Q And you could see the colored soldiers throwing rocks?
A Yes, sir.
Q And using cluhs to chase theta?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see anyone using a knife to chase any of them?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see anyone who had a knife?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Also from where you stood you could see the orderly room down
there and that is where the hlg fight was?
A That is where they started.
Q That is where the fight was really going on?
A Yes, sir.
Q From your position there what did you see around the orderly room?
A From where I was, I saw guys casting rocks against the sides of
huildings and I also saw them knocking out the window panes.
Q And what else, did you see one "boy rvtnning against the tent with
a jeep?
A I saw a guy, I don't know who he was, he started the Jeep up and
ran It into the tent, the one at the right side of the orderly room.
Q Then what did he do with the Jeep after he ran It into the tent?
COISTFfB'EMXL^
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A I saw it run up on the tent and I didn't see it any more.
Q Did he start the jeep and run it against the tent or did he
leave it there and then drive aftround to the other side of the huilding?
A I don't Imow.
Q You could see that car sitting there with the white covering on it
right where the Jeep was being run back and forth?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could jou see them throwing rocks against that car and
"breaking the glass out of it?
A No, sir, I didn't see them sling any rocks against it.
Q You saw the tent knocked down, the hoards pushed in and the
tent fell down?
A Yes, sir.
Q You could see the tent drop?
A Yes, sir.
0, You could also see the Italians running around that building 715
from where you were?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you see any of the Italians to observe about what size
they were? Were some of them pretty large boys?
A Some of them were larger than I am. I saw one of the guys as
he went out of the orderly room.
Q Here is the front door and here is the side door. Which door
did he come out?
A He came out of the side where the Jeep was.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
What happened to him?
He didn't have on anything but shorts.
Where did he go?
Around the side.
Which way?
He came around this comer.
Q In other vords, he ran from Door E on the west side of the building
ar-ound that comer?
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(BATTIS)
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A Yes, sir.
4 Do you know where he went after he ran around the comer?
A No, sir.
Q Who was chasing him?
Two guys was chasing him.
Q Do you know who they were?
A No, sir, I really don't.
Q After he disappeared around the comer of the "building, around the
west side of the building, you didn't see him any more?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Who else did you see running in the area?
A I didn't see any more running.
Q Didn't you see the man that jumped out of this window and ran
across here with some fellows chasing him and caught him?
A No, sir, I didn't see one jump out of the window.
Q What other person did you see running?
A I didn't see any more runing after this guy came out the door.
Q What else did you see fi-om where you stood in the area?
A Well, after I saw that guy come out the door and come around the
house then the MP's come down and went in the area.
Q Had they arrived in cars?
A They came up in Jeeps.
Q Where did they park, do you know?
A No, sir.
Q Did they park over here "by the huildings?
A I did see two park "behind the barracks in our company.
Q They parked up there and got out and walked to the area?
A Yes, sir, the rest of them went down the street.
Q Let us go back back a minute. You say you saw them park and
go into the area. Did you see which door they entered first?
A No, sir.
(BATTLE)
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Q Didn't they enter that side door here, Door E? '
A V/here they entered that "building I don't know.
Q How many entered the "building?
A Going down to the area, I didn't see ai^ go in the "building.
Q How many entered the area when you first saw them?
A There was three Jeeps when I first saw them.
Q Tixree Jeeps?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many were in each Jeep, do you know?
A No, sir.
Q Do you ^ow Pinkney, the colored MP that went down in the area?
A No, sir, I didn't see a colored MP.
Q You Just saw the white MP's?
A Yes, sir.
Q Gtoing "back to the Jeep running against the tent, how many times
did that Jeep run up against the tent that you o"bserved?
A Twice .
Q Did the Jeep knock down the tent the first time or the second time?
A The first time or the second time-- I don't know.
0 Did it knock the "boards down?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see the Jeep after it had "been run Into the tent, did
you see it leave the area and drive outside?
A I did see the Jeep come out of the area.
Q Which way was it going?
A Up the hill in "back of the 651st.
Q That same Jeep which drove against the tent?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was some colored soldier driving it?
A I did see it come out and go up the road.
Q A"bout how many were in it?
! -■• A Q
(BATTLE)
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A I don't know.
Q You didn't ot serve how many were in It?
A No, air.
p Was anyone hollering or making a loud noise?
A The only noise I heard-- after that it was quiet, they was
taking the guys to the ambulance.
Q Now, who did you see after the fight was oyer that you recognized
and whom you knew was down in the area?
A Well, I didn't see, to tell the truth, anyone.
Q You didn't see anyone yOu knew that had "been down there?
A I didn't see anyone that I knew that had teen there in the
area.
Q Who did you see immediately after the fight that led you to believe
they were down in the area or who told you they were down in the area or
about the area?
A The only thing, they talked to me about "being down there after
we entered the stockade.
Q Who talked ahout it?
A Montgomery, he said, when he came up here-
in Foy--
A -- when they started to question him he said he was down there and
Willie Curry said he was down there.
Q Who else?
A And another guy, I know he was down there because I heard some
of the other guys say he got struck over the head.
Q Who was that?
A Snow and Clarke.
Q Was there anyone else you heard say they were down in the area?
A No, sir, I didn't hear anyone else.
Q You undcuhtedly saw some of them down there, you saw them tearing
the tents down and saw people running against the tents and saw Italians
running, you saw people you recognized. Give me the names of those.
A If I did tell those I would he telling a tale. I don't know them,
I would be telling a falsehood.
49
(BATllIE)
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Q Did you see Ssrman Johnson that night?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q You didn't see Herman in the area at all?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see Herman around the harracks where you were?
A No, sir. I only seen him-- an officer came to the fence at the
time we was in the stockade and he handed dogtags to the commissioned
officer and he said they was supposed to he his.
Q They were supposed to he Herman's?
A Yes, air.
Q And where did they say they had gotten the dogtags?
A He didn't say where he got the dogtag.
Q Do you know the officer who pushed them through the fence?
A No, sir, it was an MP.
Q Herman, however, says he was in the harracks. You didn't see him
there that night?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see him earlier in the afternoon there?
A Yes, sir, I saw him all about before I left the area.
Q Did you see George Johnson?
A Yes, sir.
Q George Johnson was around thore that day?
A Yes, sir, I saw him.. He and I was drilling together.
Q During the day?
A Yes, sir.
Q That night did you see him here in the barracks?
A In the barracks.
Q What was he doing?
A He was in bed.
r George was in bed?
A Yes, sir.
CD
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Q Did you talk to him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Yeu definitely state you didn't see Herman Johnson?
A No, sir.
Q How about Mathis?
A He and I was together.
Q That night you didn't see him?
A I can give an account of what Mathis did, he was with meand went
to the harracks .
Q After that you didn't see him?
A No, sir.
Q That was before the fight when you came hack to the "barracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q In fact. Just about the time the fight was starting you came back
to the barracks?
A When I got back to the barracks it was practically over.
Q Yet you heard screaming and rocks being thrown in the area after
you came back to your barracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Row, you state, Battle, that you did not go to the area?
A No, sir.
Q You stayed by Barracks 672?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you never got away from Barracks 672 while the fighting was
going on?
A While the fight was going on I left the company and went outside.
Q While the fight was going on you left Barracks 672 and started
or stayed around that building?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you saw all this stui'f going on that you have testified to,
I mean the stuff going on in the Italian Area you have testified to?
A Yes, sir.
¥'■
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Q I want you to think over your story and tell me if there Is any
part of it you want to change?
A No, sir.
Q You still state you remained in the vicinity of Building 672? ■'
A Yes, sir.
Q I want to review your case and want you to follow me closely.
Here is Barracks 672?
A Yes, sir.
it?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
terrain?
A
Q
A
From Barracks 672 down to the Italian Area is how far?
I cannot tell how far it is.
It is at least I50 yards, isn't it?
I guess you are right.
And from Barracks 672 to the Italian Area is down a hill, isn't
Yes, sir.
And between Barracks 672 and the Italian Area is a lot of wooded
Yes, sir.
With a lot of underbrush?
Yes, sir.
Q And if your building is 50 feet higher than these buildings up
here you would have to be looking through the tops of trees to see what
was going on.
A I would have?
Q Now, what do you say about your story 1^
A If this is where I was I couldn't have seen?
C It couldn't have been seen from where you were standing.
A You got me mixed up.
Q If you stand in front of 672 and if you were standing on the ground
in front of that "building you couldn't see what was going on down there.
Now, what happensito the story you have told me, it wouldn't be true, would it?
A I don't imagine it would.
Q You told me you stood in front of Building 672 and saw a man
driving a Jeep Into the tamt down behind 7O9, didn't you?
f -"•CO
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By^NARA Date/^^^S"
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170
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A I did.
Q Can you explain hov from this point you could see behind a "building
when there is a building intervening between where you stood and the
place you saw the things happen?
A Yes, sir, I can give the explanation to you clearer if I could
go out there.
Q You would have to go out there?
A Yes, sir.
Q As you stood in the vicinity of 672 you have testified you saw
the orderly room, which is behind Building 709?
A Behind Building 7O9?
Q Yes.
A I did see it.
Q That is going to be your story?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, in vieW of your story, one of your friends that knows you
quite well testified as follows: "Question. Did you Join the gang going
down there? Answer. About ten went down. Question. Wa^ that the
first gang to go down? Answer. No, sir. Question. What did you
do then? Answer. I passed by Thomas Battle coming back."
A He didn't pass by me, sir, he must have his people mixed up.
Q Do you know Roy Montgomery?
A I do, sir.
Q Roy L. Montgomery when questioned by Major Manchester made this
reply: "I then went into the Orderly Room from the front and I saw a
recognized Wallace from the
Red of same company and Joe
What about that statement.
bunch of colored men standing inside. I
650th;;and a Corporal or Buck sergeant.
Trice and Thomas Battle of my company."
that true of false?
A About my being there is false, I never had my foot in that
place since I have been down there.
is
Q Again, another friend of yours was asked the following question:
"Question. Now, will you tell me who you heard and what he said about
the fight which had happened the night before? Answer. Well, Thomas
Battle, he was talking that morning after the fight, he said he had been
down there In the fight." Did you make that statement?
-OaNFIDElTrTAfcr
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By^NARA DdAt//Z^!^
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Q Now, Battle, you did not stand during the fight in the vicinity
of Building 672, "but you left that "building and went toward the Italian
Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, as you left Building 672 who accompanied you away from
that huilding?
A To tell the truth I didn't recognize anyone.
Q Where did you first go?
A I went across to the other place to see what was going on. '-
Could you take me to the area?
Q Yes.
A I i will show you exactly the spot I went.
Q When you left Building 672 on the night of August ll^th, 19^1^,
where did you go first?
A When I left this building here? Vlien I first left the company
area?
Q Yes, during the fight.
A Well, I left the company area before the fight started.
Q Where did you go?
A To the service club.
Q After you got back from the service club, where did you first go?
A I went to the barracks.
Q After you went to the barracks where did you go?
A I took off my Jacket and shirt and threw them on the bed and went
back out where the sergeant was.
Q Then where did you go?
A He was talking to us about drilling up and down the street
and I goes back up the steps and in a few minutes unbeknown to him
I went down the dirt road.
Q Unbeknown to the sergeant you left Building 672 and went down
the dirt road?
A Yes, elr.
Q Toward the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
DQt^TFTSERTrAr:
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Q Where did you first go after leaving the huilding, after you
went down the road?
A I can't tell you exactly the spot I was standing when I made
my stop.
Q
A
A
Q
But what building in the Italian Area was it near?
I can't think.
Was it near the orderly room?
The orderly room here?
Yes.
That is where I saw the stuff going on in the orderly room.
Where were you standing when you saw what was going on in the
orderly room?
A I cannot give you the definite spot I was standing when I saw
what was going on.
Q If we take you to the eirea can you show us the point where you
were standing at the time you observed the fight going on around
Building 715?
A I will he glad to tell you where I was.
Q Did you stand in the road when you observed the fighting going
on in Building 715?
A I did, sir.
Q Wf>s It Lawton Eoad in which you were standing when you saw the
fighting going on around there?
A I was in the road right here.
Q That is Lawton Road?
A Yes, sir.
Q How far away froa the orderly room were you when you saw this
fighting in the vicinity of Building 715?
A That Is out of my Jurisdiction, I cannot exactly give you the
distance I was.
Q Were you 50 feet or 20 feet?
A I an going to tell the truth now, I am not getting anything mixed
up. I will be scared to say for fear I will be telling a false on that.
Q You can make an estimate and you wouldn't be telling me a falsehood.
(BATTLE)
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CDNtF4apyXl. AL-
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A The estimate I give you may "be closer than I was then it might
he further than I was.
Q If you made an error in an estimate, that would he only an error
in an estimate, it wouldn't he a falsehood. How far away from Building 715
were you when you observed the fighting going on in the vicinity of that
huildlng?
A I am telling the truth.
Q You don't know then approximately how far it was?
A No, sir.
Q Come out here and take a look at this room. The distance you were
away from the orderly room at the time you saw the fighting in the vicinity
of that huilding on the night of August ll^-th, 19*'-*<- was about l6 steps?
A That is approximately it, about sixteen.
Q You were close enough to see the individuals doing the fighting
and the clubs they were using?
A The only things I seen guys using was sticks.
Q Long wide 2-by-U's, limbs off trees, and boards?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now as you stood there about l6 feet or stepS from Building 715^
you saw someone who you will identify as the person who drive the jeep
into the tent, didn't you?
A The guy was about five feet eight.
Q You saw the man driving the jeep into the tent?
A I did see him.
Q Who was it?
A Curry.
Q Willie Curry?
A Willie Curry.
Q Was there anyone in the jeep with him at the time when he drove
the jeep into the tent?
A No, sir.
Q
A
You stated this morning he drove the jeep into the tent twice?
I did see him going Into it twice.
.rji)
(BATHE)
DECLASSIFIED
; Authority _2.§5^^^-^
By^NARA Date/^^l^^
I7U
• CDNFIDENTIAL •
2i
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Q Was the jeep then stopped?
A I am going to tell the truth ahout that. I didn't see the Jeep
move after he drove it into the tent, "but there was a guy trying to
start the Jeep, I don't know who he was.
Q Curry stopped the Jeep and Curry got out?
A No, sir. This guy gets in the Jeep and tried to start it up.
Q Whose was that?
A He couldn't start it.
Q Did you see him try to start it?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he do?
A He got out and Curry got in.
Q And Curry started the vehicle?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he do?
A Ran Into the tent.
Q Again?
A He hadn't went into the tent.
Q When you first saw the Jeep after you arrived in the vicinity of
Building 715, who was in it?
A I don't know the guy.
Q But he Mas trying to start the Jeep?
A Yes, sir.
Q You don't know him?
A No, sir.
Q Are you siire?
A Yes, sir.
Q You know who that was?
A I am telling the truth on that.
Q The first man that got in the Jeep attempted to start it and he
wasn't successful, is that right?
A Right.
"(battle)
L&^175
DECLASSIFIED
A uthority 235-^^^—
By^NARA Date/z^.'g^
CDf^F+BENTIAL
I
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Q Then he got out?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did he go?
A I will "be honestahout that. I don't know where he went hut he
did come out of the Jeep on the left side and walked down in front of the
Jeep.
Q Toward the tent?
A He walked away from the tent right here, the Jeep was standing
at an angle right here and he got out and walked like he was going in
front of the tent and Curry stepped up and got in it and started it.
I know he got in the Jeep and he told me this guy couldn't start the Jeep
and he took over and I did see him get In the Jeep. I don't know who he
was or didn't know who he was until he tol4 me who he was.
Q
twice?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
tent.
in?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
When he got in the Jeep you saw him run the Jeep into the tent
I did.
Then the Jeep was stopped after it hit the tent the second time?
Yes, sir, he was in the inside the tent after the second time.
He had run the Jeep Inside the tent?
He had.
And the front wheels of the jeep were up on the tent floor?
That is ahout right.
After he ran the Jeep into the tent, what did Curry do?
After that I didn't see him do nothing but run the Jeep into the
You saw him get out of the Jeep after he ran it into the tent?
I didn't see him get out.
You didn't see him get out?
I saw the other guy get out of the Jeep.
You mean the man that got out of the Jeep first "before Curry got
Yes, sir.
What did he take with him when he left?
I didn't see him take a thing out.
(BATTLE)
if*"
176
C D NSIQ-EMXIAL^ #
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1
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A
Didn't he have a club?
I ain't going to say.
You didn't see it?
Yes, sir.
Q What did Curry have in his hand when there was someone else in
the Jeep?
A I didn't see him with anything in his hand when he got in.
Q Before he got in what did he have in his hand?
A Before this guy got in the jeep which was Curry-- after the
other guy got out he came down the hill.
Q Didn't Curry lay something In the seat when he got in, didn't
he lay a cluh in the seat of the Jeep?
A He had a cluh, I don't know whether he had it "before he got in
or after he got out.
-«. -
A
Q You don't know whether he had the club before he got in or after
he got out?
A That is right.
Q When you last saw Curry he was sitting in the Jeep after
running in under the tent?
A He had.
Q When did you next see Curry?
A The next time I saw Curry was the next morning.
Q You said you saw Curry with a club either "before he got in that
Jeep or after he got out?
A I am trying to straighten it out. Before he got in the Jeep
I didn't see him with a club and when he got out of the Jeep I didn't
see him get out of the Jeep. I ain't going to say he had a club in his
hand.
Q You say he had. —
A I ain't going to say he had one when he got out of the Jeep.
I believe he said, "I got me one."
Q He got an Italian with a club?
A Yes, sir. That is why I don't know whether he had it before he got
in or after he got out.
.- - »-i ^
(BATTLE)
^.
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DECLASSIFIED
: Authority _Z5S2i^__^
: By^NARA Date//^1^2^
177
• CDNFIDENTIAL #
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Q Now, after you saw Curry r\in the Jeep into the tent, who was
the next man you saw in the Italian Area?
A I saw a bunch of guys.
A
Q
A
Q
A
Wait a minute.. I don't want a "bunch, I want individuals.
I can't identify them.
The next man you saw you recognized was whom?
I didn't see anyone I recognized.
Are y&u sure?
No, sir, I didn't see anyone else I recognized.
Q Herman Johnson was talking about "being there the following day,
wasn't he?
A He did, he was getting ready to pull out.
Q Vhat did he say?
A He told me he was around to the back of the barracks, the orderly
room, with the flashlight and the MP walked up to him and asked him for
the flashlight and he gave it to him.
Q
A
Q
A
Did he say what MP it was?
No, sir.
Did he say he lost his dogtags down there too?
He didn't tell me he lost his dogtags.
Q The next day you saw some Lieutenant come up to the guard house
or the stockade and hand some dogtags to Captain Jones?
A Yes, sir, through the fence.
Q And they were the dogtags of Herman Johnson?
A I will say it was.
Q Did Captain Jones then call Herman Johnson out and hand him the
dogtags?
A No, sir, he didn't. I think it was the following day, I am not
certain it was then, but he was taken down and questioned.
Q
A
n
A
Herman Johnson was?
Yes, sir.
When did he get his dogtags back?
I don't know when he got his dogtags back.
-^QNFiQE^^OJAL^
(BATTLE)
45
DECLASSIFIED
.i' ; Aut^.ori^y_Z.^52:^A_
i*^
By^iNARA DaW/^^^^S
178
• CDNFIDENTIAU^Ji
f
\ Q Do you know who the Lieuteiaant was who "brought the dogtags up
2 to the fence?
3 A No, sir.
4
gl Q Had 70U ever seen him "before?
g A No, sir, I hadn't.
3 Q How do you taaow it was Herman Johnson's dogtag that was handed
9 to Captain Jones?
,0 A When they come in and got him I figured it was his, he was the
,,; first guy that went out of there.
12
,3 Q Captain Jones didn't say anything after he received the dogtags
,4 which would leeui you to "believe they were Herman Johnson's?
,5 A No, sir, he didn't say nothing "before the company about it.
16i
^7! Q Did you see how many dogtags were handed back, one or two?
,g A It was on a chain, I couldn't tell how many was on the chain.
19
20 Q Somehow I don't see how you connected it up with Herman Johnson,
21 was it because Herman Johnson was the first one called out?
22: A He was the first one to go.
23
24 Q You thought because he was the first one to go and you had seen
25 the Lieutenant hand the chain with the dogtags to the Captain, it was
26 Herman Johnson's?
27 A Yes, sir, because when he passed the dogtags through the fence
28 the Captain came back and started talking on the same case, he had us
29 all around, huddled, and he was standing in the ring and after he got
30 up from there and he said, "When I think of what you boys done it
31 makes me sick everytime I think about it," and sifter awhile here comes
32 a Jeep and they pick up Herman Johnson and takes him out.
33
34 Q Didn't they also find Herman Johnson's shovel in the area?
35 A Me knowing positively the shovel was there, I ain't going to
36 say because he would say it wouldn't be and I don't know where the
37 shovel was found or the serial number.
38
39 Q Did you hear Herman Johnson say anything about having a shovel
40 down there?
41 A Ho, sir, I didn't.
42
43 Q Did you ever talk to him about it since that time?
44 A No, sir.
-eBf4f4©«5«JAU.
■'".'J. (battle)
M
L&(179
• confidential #
"^.■** '^'a-nh'v •.
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^3£f^k^
By,^iNARA Date//^,^25
t^'^liaiwjrC,-*;
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Q Let's go "back to Building 715. You stated a few minutes ago the
first man you identified definitely down in the area after you saw Curry
was Freddie Umblance?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was Freddie Umblance doing when you first saw him?
A When I saw him I didn't see him doing anything.
Q ■ He had a club in his hand?
A A stick ahout that long.
Q About >| feet long?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else was with Freddie?
A He was walking by himself.
Q Was he chasing Italians?
A No, sir.
Q Were any Italians close to him?
A No, sir, that was after the MP's took over that he came walking
with the cluh in his hand.
Q From what direction did he come?
A Between the orderly room and the tent.
Q When he saw the MP's he left, did he?
A He did. The MP's ordered everybody out of the area.
Q Now, who was the third man you saw in the Italian Area in the
vicinity of TIJ on the night of August llith, 19^+?
A The third man I saw down there — I saw Roy Montgomery.
Q Where?
A He was down in the area, I reckon about 7 feet, I imagine that
is the distance he was from Freddie.
Q What was Boy doing when you first saw him?
A Standing up, he wasn't doing nothing.
Q, What kind of a club did he havp?
A I didn't see him have anything in his hand.
Q Hoy Montgomery?
eeHF4Q£NXlAL
(BATTLE)
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By,^NARA Date/^
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A That is right.
A He didnH have a 2-\)j-h in his hand? -
a' . I didn't see him with anything in his hand.
Q What was he doing?
A Standing in one place.
Q Talking to Freddie?
A No, sir, Freddie was walking ahead of him.
Q Did you hear Montgomery say anything to anyhody in the area
when you saw him?
A No, sir.
Q Who was the fourth man you saw?
A The foixtth man-- can you i[ive me the names of those you had testify?
Q Willie Basden?
A I don't know him, he is not in my company.
Q Milton Bratton?
A He is in the 650th.
Q John S. Brown?
A I know him, he is a sergeant.
Q You saw him?
A No, sir, I didn't see him.
Q Johnnie Ceaser?
A No, sir.
Q James Chandler?
A I don't remember seeing him until he came to the stockade. He
Is in the 650th.
Q Alvin Clark?
A I saw him.
Q Where did you first see Alvin?
A He was stemding in front of the 578th mess hall.
Q Then whei'e did you see him next?
A That is the only place I saw him.
EQttPtDENTtAt:-
;63
(BATTLE)
I8l
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CDNFIDENTIAL
•-a
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DECLASSinED
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By^NARA Date/^^,^3'
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Q When did you go to the 578th mess hall?
A When I went to the 578th mess hall to the party, a toy "by the
name of Jones, ahout the size of Clark, a little taller than Clark, he
taken me and my wife to the mess hall. Clark and 5 or 6 other hoys were
standing in front of the mess hall.
Q Was one of them Roy Daymond?
A I don't know.
Q Was one of them named Wllj.le D. MontgomarT?
A I don't know.
Q How many of those standing in front of the mess hall did you
later see in the Ita].ian Area, Just Jones and Glark?
A I didn't see Jones down in the Italian Area.
A
A
Q.
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
A
A
You didn't see William G. Jones dovm in the Italian Ajrea?
No, sir.
Hov many others did you see down there?
I didn't see no others.
Willie S. Curry, did you see him?
He ie the gu^' la the vehicle.
You only saw him once in the Jeep?
I did.
Roy Dgymond?
I told you awhile ago I didn't see him.
Lee Dixon?
No, sir.
Willie Ellis?
I didn't see him.
Herman Gentry?
I have only known him since he cane in the st'jckade.
Addison George?
I never did see him,
Jefferson D. Green?
I didn't see him down there.
(BATll.E)
if^^^^
182
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i-
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Q John I.ee Hamilton?
A No, sir, I didn't see him at all.
Q You didn't see him in the Italian Area?
A No, sir, he could have "been there.
Q Hei-man Johnson?
A He told me he gave the MP his light.
Q Did you see him down there?
A I didn't see him in the area. I saw him after out drilling
together.
Q
You saw him the night "before he left the Italian Area, you saw
him in the Italian Area?
A No, sir.
Q You want to say he vfasn't down there?
A I didn't see him.
Q Henry Jupiter?
A The names of those you are reading ai^e in the 650th, I don't
know none of those guys by name until them ccme in the stockade?
Q But you saw them and learned who they were later? In other
vords, since you have associated the name Eenry Jupiter with the man you
saw down there, you saw him?
A I saw a hunch of men down there.
Q You saw Eenry, that is the person I am talking about now.
A. I did not, sir.
Q Robert Mathie?
A I can't give an^' account of him, no fur'ther than the barracks
although he is my friend.
Q
A
Q
A
Didn't he go down there with you?
No, sir.
You saw him at the fight, didn't you?
No, sir, I wll] stick to that.
How many have you recognized of those I named?
You calJ.ed Chandler?
(BAIIIE)
185
■'Jf
• CDNflDENXIAL.#
DECLASSiFIED
: Authority _Z55^5?A_——
: By^NARA Date//£^3 ,
I 1 I nnwf'»nfl**'if^fit***'****'
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Q Yes.
A I recognized him "by the two bumps on his face.
Q He was down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q vniat did Chandler have in his hand?
A Nothing, he was coming out when the MP's ordered them out.
Q You saw Chandler when he was in the orderly room waving a knife
in his hand?
A No, sir.
Q Who else did you see "besides Chandler down there out of the
group I named?
A The mess sergeant, Arnest Graham.
Q Where did you see Ernest Graham in the Italian Area on the
night of August iJ+th, 19^?
A I saw him in the area with a cluh in his hand.
Q Did you see him while the fight was going on?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q The only time you saw Graham was the time he was leaving the
Italian Area on the night of August ll^th, 19^^ with a club in his hand?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of a cluh was he can-ying?
A A stick ahout that long. i
Q Ahout 5 feet long?
A Yes, sir.
I
Q Did you talk to Graham at all?
A No, sir, I did not. Sylvester Campbell was down there, he was a
cook.
Q Where did you see Sylvester Campbell?
A I saw him-- he passed by me as I was standing in the road.
Q what did he have in his hand?
A Nothing.
Q However, he had been in the Italian Area diarlng the fight?
A Ee ve.s.
eeHRQEif^axiAL^
l^C
(eattie)
Itik
• CDNFIBEHTIAL
J
DECLASSIFIED
; Authority _ZS5^^i^—^
1
2
31
41
5j
6;
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16;
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Q Did he talk to you?
A No, sir.
Q He didn't say anything to you?
A No, sir.
Q You saw Campbell on the night of August lUth come out of the
Italian Area after the fight was over?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else did you recognize down there?
A I can't think of no more now, if there was any more I can't
think of them.
Q About how long were you down there?
A In the mess hall?
Q Down in the area where this fight was going on?
A Oh, I imagine I was standing there about-- close to 55 or l*-0 minutes.
Q 35 or kO minutes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see some Italians running out of the barracks?
A Yes, sir, he came out of the orderly room without anything on but
his shorts, he had on his shorts.
Q From where you were standing, you could look into the barracks
and the orderly room between the barracks?
A You couldn't hardly see into the barracks, there wasn't but
one light, they had knocked the lights out, I imagine.
Q Did you see some Italians walking around in there?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Cid you stand in one spot all the time, this 55 or 1^0 minutes?
A I imagine about 10 or i5 minutes and I went back up the hill,
back up to my tent-- mj' barracks.
Q But you were standing more or less in one spot all the time?
A Yes, sir.
Q WTiy did you go down there?
A Well, I heard the beating and rocks and I goes on down to look on.
I didn't take anything with me.
•eEJ-NhiUEI^fftAk-.
., /^, /^ *T
(EATIXE)
185
• CQMR^N^4AL •
DECLASSIFIED
Authori^y ^3S^^
By^NARA Date/2^^jg25'
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Q
k
Q
there?
A
Q
A
Q
got down
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q.
A
Q
A
Q
Q
A
I didn't
Q
A
Q
A
and they
Who did you say went with you?
No one, juet I.
There were several of you walking there at the same time, weren't
No, sir.
You were the only one that went down at that time?
Yes, sir, just me "by myself.
AT)out how many colored soldiers were down there at the time you
there?
They were all colored down there.
Ahout how many? Ahout 50 or 75?
I imagine somewhere in that neighhorhood.
Seventy-five or more?
Yes. sir.
And you saw a first class riot going on down there, didn't you?
Yes, sir.
What did you do the whole time you were down there, 55 or UO minutes?
Nothing.
Just stood there?
Yes, sir.
Did you help anyhody out?
No, sir, to tell the facts about it when I went down to look on
go with the Intention of doing anything.
After you got there did you keep looking on?
I Just looked on.
Did you see anybody hurt down there?
The only one I saw hurt was some Italians they had on a stretcher
then called an ambulance.
Did you stand 8.nd watch that?
Yes, air.
Who carried -them to the ambulance?
I don't know exactly who taken them to the ambulance.
CDN-FfBeWXlAL
,'-.^3
(BATTIE )
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Q Did you help carry them out?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Why didn't you?
A They already ordered everyhody out of the area. There wasn't
no use of me going over there.
Q And you stood there 55 or Uo minutes alm^ost in the same spot?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did nothing?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever pick up a rock?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever pick up a stick?
A No, sir.
Q Why .didn't you?
A I wasn't interested
Q Why were you standing there then?
A The only thing I stood there for was to oTjserve what they was doing
to those guys.
Q You stood there 55 or ^+0 minutes and you weren't interested?
A No, sir, I wasn't interested.
Q Why didn't you go back to your barracks if you weren't interested?
A What I mean Is I wasn't interested in doing anything to those
Q You were interested in somebody else doing it to them?
A NO, sir.
Q Did you come to the help of any of the Italians?
A No, sir.
q Why?
A If I had went down and tried to help those guys out I maybe would
have got some of what they were giving those men.
Q Did you approve of what was going on?
A What do you mean?
guys.
(BATTLE)
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Q Did you approve of those Itsillans "being teaten up?
A Ho, sir.
Q Why didn^t you help them out?
A Well, sir, I Just told you awhile ago, if I had went down I
might have gotten some of what they were getting.
Q You Just stood there after you saw what was going on?
A Well, I wasn't doing anything, there wasn't nohody "bothering
me and I Just stood there.
Q You just stood there on the sidelines and cheered?
A No, sir, I didn't cheer at all.
Q You watched that whole "business going on for 55 or ^0 minutes
and never raised your hand to put a stop to it?
A No, sir.
Q When the MP's came you didn't help them?
A They ordered all the guys out of the area.
Q You didn't offer to help anybody?
A No, sir, I didn't. My help wouldn't have been no good, just me.
Q That is not the question, you did not offer to help any"body?
A No, sir, I didn't offer to help.
Q Now, how long "before you left was it "before you walked into
the orderly room?
A What orderly room.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
room?
A
The orderly room you have "been talking about?
I have never been in the orderly room.
You say you didn't go in there and didn't look in?
No, sir.
That is where most of the stuff was going on, in the orderly
I saw guys coming out of the orderly room.
TnTio?
One Italian was coming out and another guy chasing him.
Who was chasing him?
-BQMRB&NXiAL.
:/o
(eattle)
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A I didn't see his face.
Q You saw a lot of fighting going on in the orderly room, didn't
you?
A I saw window panes "being knocked out, I saw the tent being torn.
Q You saw the orderly room window panes and glass being broken?
A There wasn't any light in there.
Q No light in the orderly room?
A At the time of the beating and knocking was going on, there
wasn't a single light in there.
Q You mean it was entirely dark in that orderly room?
A Yes, sir, Just a little before the MP's come down and taken over
somebody put a bulb in and the lights went back on.
Q After they turned the lights back on, what did you see in there?
A I didn't see nothing In there then.
Q Why?
A They were all scattered across the area.
Q Everybody was out of the orderly room?
A I couldn't swear everybody was out because I hadn't been in there.
Q Now, do you want your testimony to state the lights were out in
the orderly room?
A Well, at the time before the MP's came down the lights did go
out.
Q For how long?
A Oh, Just a few minutes, not long because the MP's Just arrived
before they came back on.
Q Before the lights went off there wata lot of fighting going on
In the orderly room?
A There was.
Q You remember that, don't you?
A I can.
Q There was a lot of fighting around the orderly room before
the lights went out?
A There vas.
^Q-T^n-Cret^qSlAi .
(BATTLE)
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Q What did you see?
A I saw guys in there fighting and slinging cluhs, Just as you say.
% V/ho was slinging and fighting?
A I don't know that now.
Q Did you go there to see them?
A No, air, I didn't go in the orderly room at all.
Q When you saw this slinging of cluhs and fighting and windows
heing knocked out, didn't you go up to the orderly room to see what was
going on in there?
A No, Sir.
Q
A
up there.
Q
Why didn't you?
It Just took a few minutes and there wis no need in me going
Why wasn't there any need?
rt Well, there could have been a need for me going up to stop
it, that is true, "but me going up and trying to help out those guys,
those guys that were doing the fighting out-numbered me.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
How many were in the orderly room fighting at that time?
I can't positively say.
Tell me about how many?
Maybe about four or five in there.
Just four or five?
That is my estimation.
I can't say there was 15 or 20
in there, I might be wrong, but I will estimate four or five being in
the orderly room.
Q There could have been as many as 15 or 20?
A There could have been.
Q Now, I want you to study Just a minute before you answer this
question and let's make sure and not make a mistake about it.
At some time while you were in that area watching that fight you went in
the orderly room. Just when was it from the time you went there?
A Me?
Q Yes, you,
A I will hold my right hand and swear to my Sod I did not enter the
orderly room when the fight was going on. I have never been In the
CDNFJDENTiAU
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orderly room.
Q You have never at any time "been in the orderly room?
A No, sir.
Q Vhat is the closest you ever got to the orderly room?
A Ihe closest I got was when they was taking me to the dispensary.
Q I am talking ahout that night.
A The distance I walked.
Q You have never "been any closer than that?
A No, sir.
Q Why?
A I Just told you.
(^ Maybe I am just a little hard to understand. Tell me again.
A I x-old you the reason I didn't go up there, those guys doing the
fighting outnumbered me.
Q Now, who are you talking about, the Itsilians?
A No, sir.
Q Those guys were doing nothing about defending themselves?
A The Italians were trying to defend themselves.
Q But they were being struck with clubs?
A Yes, sir. I will admit that.
Q You saw somebody beating the door down with an ax while you were
standing there?
A No, sir.
Q, Did you see anyone swing an ax?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't see that?
A The whole time I didn't see an ax out at all.
Q Who got in the orderly room-- or how did they get in the orderly room?
A I don't know.
Q You were standing there watching, weren't you?
A I was watching all it. I did hear the door being knocked down but the
wasn't any light on the outside.
-UQWFf
.73
(BATTLE)
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home?
Q When 70U left there, did you leave alone?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Now, did you leave alone or did someljody leave the area with you?
A I left the area alone, ty myself.
Q Why did you leave?
A I went down to see what was going on.
Q The question is why did you leave the area?
A What area?
Q The area where you were standing for 55 or It-O minutes?
A Why I left from down there going back to my area?
Q You left that area at some time or other, didn't you?
A I did.
Q After 55 or li-O minutes?
A The MP's taken ever.
Q The MP's took over, is that the reason you left?
A Yes, sir.
Q In other words, tha showies over and you were ready to go "back
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you ever in that orderly room at all?
A No, sir.
Q Do you knew Willie Curry?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Willie Ciorry inside the orderly room?
A No, sir, I didn't see him inside the orderly room.
Q Did he see you while you were in there?
A He didn't see me in there he cause I wasn't in there.
Q
V/hlle you stood out in the street you saw a hunch of Italians
running hack in the woods?
A Yee, sir.
Q
Did you see approximately how many Italians left the area and ran
n::rSf^F4'D;EaiTrAT:
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into the wooded area on the outside? . ^ ^^
A When they entered the woods, it was not from the end or the
orderly room, they entered from hehind.
Q And how many went down in the woods you saw?
A I saw one guy that came out.
Q Did they chase him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they chase him in the woods?
A I don't know, "but I did see them chase him.
Q This morning you testified you didn't ee© anyone Jump out of
the huildlngs hecauae you were up here. Did you see any Italiatis
Jump out of the building here?
A Yfcu aaked me did I see someone Jump through the window and I
told you I did not. I told you I saw guys come out through the door,
out the side door of the orderly room.
Q This morning you said you saw several Italians running around
the "buildings with colored "boys chasing then.
A I meant the orderly room.
A
715 and in 709?
Yes, sir.
Q Was the light on In the orderly room when the light was being
knocked down?
A When the door was being knocked down there wasn't any light at
all.
Q Now, was there any light shining out of this window over here?
A There was some guys, maybe 5 or 6 standing in this window.
Q With clubs?
A With clubs.
Q And thej knocked the panes out of the window?
A Yes, glr.
Q And they knocked the broad pieces of the sill in, didn't they
after they had knockci the glass out?
A I didn't see the sill.
(battle)
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Q You remember this window closest to you?
A That is on the end. I otserved the window running into
Boom Y and Z teing knocked out "by clu"b8 and sticks.
Q And you saw a great miSy °ien gather around "both windows?
A I did.
A
How many of those people did you recognize?
I didn't recognize any of them.
Q You had a light in this room, a big bright light in this
room. Isn't it normal when there is a light in a room shining into
the darkness on the outside, the persons surrounding the door or window .
where the light shines through, you would be able to see them very very
plainly?
A They could be seen plain, but they had their backs to me.
Q At the time that you saw these soldiers gathered around the windows
and on either side of Door E, did you see Ceaoar and Brown?
A Brown, he is IJ'K Bro\m, he was standing at the window on the
right hand side.
Q Was he using a club to knock the window panes oat?
A He was on the right hand side of the steps.
Q After you saw Ceaser knocking the windows out, where else did
you see him?
A I only saw him beating against the window to tell the truth.
^ Row ClsLrk, he was hit, he wasn't standing at the window?
A No, sir. Carry was doing the driving of the Jeep.
Q Did you see him there at the vindow?
A No, sir.
Q Soy Daymond?
A I ain't going to say he wasn't there because he could have been
there .
Q Did you see him at the window?
A No, sir.
M. Lee Dixon?
A No, sir
-€3eHR©e»«^t^±:r-
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(BAT'rLE)
19^
• CDNFIDENTIAL «§
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Q Oa the night of August ll»th, 19^*+ when jou were in the vicinity of
Building 715, did you see Jefferson D. Green?
A I did.
Q What was Jefferson D. Green doing when you saw him in the
Italian Area?
A He had a stick, a scantling longer than ho was and he was "beating
on the window .
Q
he had?
A
Q
A
in?
A
Did Jefferson Green taiock the window out with the scantling
Yes, sir.
What else did you see Green do?
He left the window and I didn't see him after that.
When Green went on the other side, did you hear any windows knocked
I could hear, I don't know jf it was on the same "building or not.
Q On the night of August Ik, 19^^+, while you were standing near
Building 715 did you see Private John Lee Hamilton chasing an Italian
through Door E and wround "behind Building 715?
A I couldn't swear it was him, but there was a man chasing
him.
Q Do you believe it was John Lee Hamilton when you saw him chasing
the man around the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the man whom you believe to be Hamilton came out of the building
and he was dressed in his underwear and he was chased behind Building 713?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see him strike the Italian after he left Door E and was in the
area outside the building?
A No, sir, I didn't see him strike him.
Q Wps the Italian so far ahead of Hamilton he couldn't reach him?
A He was out the door before this gviy came out. The Italian came
out peraued by Hamilton.
Q The Italian escaped by ruaiing around the building?
A Yes, sir.
-eaNFlDENTIAL
(battle)
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Q He was eround the "building 'before you saw Hamilton catch him?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night subsequent to the night of the fight, August ll+th,
19hk, did you talk to T/5 Herman Johnson about the fight that happened in
the Italian Area?
A No, sir, I talked with him in the stockade.
Q What conversation did you hare with Herman Johnson concerning the
fight which you had?
A I didn't personally talk with him. When I entered the conversation
he was talking.
Q What did Herman Johnson say about the fight?
A He said they had some bunks against the do®^'
Q The Italians had bunks against the door?
A Yes^ sir.
Q The colored soldiers knocked the door down outside and went
inside the building?
A Yea, sir.
Q What else did he say?
A And there was maybe several of them under some beds.
Q Several Itsdiana under the beds inside the room?
A Yes, sir.
Q What else?
A And they started beating them around.
Q The colored soldiers started beating the Italians Inside the room?
A Yes, sir and after they started beating them around in there some
of them got aweiy.
Q Did he eay where they went?
A No, sir, and he came out of the building and the guys ran and an
M? walked up and asked Herman for his flashlight and he gave it to him.
Q Was that the only conversation you had vlth Herman Johnson
concerning the fight on the night of August lUth, 19l^U?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else was present when you were talking toHerman Johnson about
^Qf4f4Q^heiAkr^
(BATTLE)
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By^NARA Date//^,^3
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hia participation in the riot?
A Robert Mathis.
Q Anyone else?
A Mathis and Freeman Pierce.
Q Anyone else?
A Andrew Jones. Those guys are not here. He was in the same
tent.
Q Anyone else?
A; Clovis Julian.
Q All of these men whom you have named were present when Herman
Johnson discussed his participation in the fight on the night of
August lU, 19l^U?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of August lUth, 19'<-^, did you see Henry Jupiter
in the vicinity of Building TI5?
A He was down there where I seen him.
Q You state definitely he was in the Italian Area on the night of
August \hVca
A He was.
Q
A
Q
Eohert Mathis?
I can only give an account bodily as far as the "barracks.
You cannot say you saw Mathis down there after the fight started?
No, sir.
Q, Is there anything elee^ whether I have asked you or not, that
you would like to add in this case?
A No, sir, there is nothing else.
-eeNFiDEi!£RAL
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Testimony of T/5 Herman Johnson, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 27 September 19kk "by
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williema, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, serial number, and organization.
A Herman Johnson, %Q911h^f 651st Port Company, Fort Lawton,
Washington.
Q Are you understand your rights as a witness under the 2it-th
Article of war?
A I have had them explained, I don't know them very well.
Q Do you want me to explain them to you again?
A I don't think it would hurt.
(Investigating Officer reads and explains 2Hh Article of War to
witness)
Q On the night of August lUth, 19^i<-, were you in your company when
some trouble was had between the Itailians and your organization?
A Yes, sir, I was in our company.
Q What was the first mention or what was the first incident
which was brought to your attention that caused you to know a fight was
going on between the Italians and the colored soldiers?
A I will tell you the way I got it, somebody said they was fighting
but I didn't know at that time who was fighting,
■i Where do you live?
A I lived in barracks 673.
Q Who informed you there was a fight going on?
A I don't know exactly who, but it was spoken from the outside,
somebody said they was fighting, maybe it was the barrabks in front of me.
Naturally, I was inside.
Q When someone hollered they were fighting, you went on the
outside?
A Yes, sir, I went outside when I heard so many say they was fighting.
Q, When they said they were fighting in the area, did you know they
eONF}DEhffib^«L_
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(JOHNSON)
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meant in the Italian Area?
A No, sir, I thought maybe it was the 650th, they are in that
direction back toward the Italian Area.
Q When you went outside what noise did you hear?
A Like hitting against houses.
Q Breaking glass?
A Yes, sir, wood.
Q Was anyone screaming?
A I don't know if I heard anybody hollering, I heard so many iTOices
I heard plenty of them.
Q After you heard those voices you went toward that area?
A Mo, sir.
Q Where did you go?
A I stood there a couple of minutes and the first sergeant was out
there at the time and he said he was going back to the orderly room and
call the I>IP's and don't no person go there.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
building.
What was the first sergeant's name?
Cabreil .
Was he in front of your building?
Y98, sir, he was in the front door.
He was standing at Building 673, was he?
In front-- between 67O, the building in front and 675, our
Q Is that 670?
A I am not familiar with this map, 673 faces east. The other building
faces west and there is another one below that.
Q That is 672?
A It must be 672.
Q Sergeant Cabral and you were in front of Building 673?
A He wasn't, he was between.
Q Near the orderly room?
A Yes, sir, they are kind of close, the orderly room is not far
apart, the two buildings face each other.
LC81
(JOHNSON)
199
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Q When Sergeant Catral told you to go back in your iDuildlng, what
did you do?
A I turned around and went "back to work. I was pressing clothes.
Q You stayed in the huilding?
A I stayed in the "building.
Q How long did you stay there?
A Just a few minutes. I went "back outside to the latrine, I went
"back and got water for my iron and went hack in the building.
Q When you went in the ].atrine, how long did you stay there?
A Not long.
Q Where did you go ^hen?
A Back to my building.
Q 675?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you got hack to 675, what did you do?
A I went hack to work.
Q What were you doing?
AP Pressing.
Q Pressing your clothes?
A For the soldiers in our company.
Q You pressed clothes for them?
A I forget the fellow's name, he is a new fellow in the company,
I am not sure, I think Jacob Person.
Q How long did you stay in 675 pressing clothes after you returned
from the latrine?
A I pressed clothing until after everything was over.
Q Anyway, you stayed In Building 675 until all the fighting was
over in the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir, I was there all the time and I went out to get the water.
Q To the latrine?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't go away from the latrine?
-CONFFD^tsfft^t-
(JOHNSON)
i"'
m-
! 200
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.'fiSHFIBeNTIAL
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I came tack "to the 'building.
Q Now, all the time you were going from Building 675 to the latrine
and "back again to Building 675 and pressing clothes, didn't you hear
a lot of noise? ^
A Yeo, sir, I heard it before that.
Q Didn't you go down there? * ,
A No, sir.
Q You stayed in Building 675?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you stand on the outside of the building and watch what was
going on down there?
A I think the first time I went after water I 8t4>pped on the steps
a minute or two.
0.
A
Q
A
Q
Q
A
/Old watched what was going on?
I didn't see, I listened.
You couldn't see the Italian Area from Building 675?
Ko, sir.
Why couldn't you see there?
It was dark.
But you could hear the hdleering going on?
Yes,- sir.
Q
And the screaming?
A I could hear voices, I couldn't say it was screaming, but there
was lots of loud hollering.
Q, It sounded like inen being beaten, didn't it?
A I am not sure anybodj" was screaming, I know I heard a lot of
talking.
A
■%
Ml you did was hear the noise going on toward the Italian Area
and you were listening?
A Y«E, sir, i'or the time I was otanding there.
i. But you never left Building 675?
A :;o, sir.
CDNFieE-N:n^tr-'
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(jomson)
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DECLASSIFIED
201
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Q Did you, after the riot waa over, talk to Thomas Battle about the
fight?
A No, sir, I didn't talk with him about the fight, I didn't know
he knew anything about it. I don't know if h© went down. I heard the
MP trucks there.
Q Did you see the MP's go there?
A No, sir. Just as a matter of course I figured that is what it
was.
Q The next day after the fight did you talk to Battle about it?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q You didn't talk to anyone about it?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear any conversation being carried on by any persons
who participated in the fight?
A I heard one conversation later that strikes my attention more
than anything and that is over here at the mess hall, I don't know what
building, anyway, you know where the small theater is?
Q At Camp Jordan?
A No, sir, right up from the service club, you know, you go up
to the service club?
Q Yes. What was that conversation you heard there?
A When I was in line-- I was standing in lUvn o* tkt outside
and a fellow, he was a soldier and be said the soldiers had trouble down
there and he said, "I heard an Italian got hung," and naturally I
paid attention, but as far as discussing the fight, I never discussed
It with them because I have heard different things, but I didn't
pay any attention. This waa a white fellow that said that.
Q Who was the white boy that told you boys ahout it?
A I don't know who he was.
Q Waa an^'thing said by ani^ of the other colored soldiers about
the individual being hanged?
A Well, there was a sergeant in our company, he looka around at
me and they all looks at each other and everybody looks like it is
socie thing new. I laaow it was news to me so there wasn't no answer I
could give, I didn't know nothing about it.
Q: Wae there anyone e2 ee that seemed to know about it?
(JOHNSON)
DECLASSIFIED
AutIiorin'_2^25^±l^
By^NARA Date/:tl^25
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A No, sir.
Q Did anyone else start to talk to you about the nan that vas hanged
or who did it?
A Everybody was wondering was it really true.
Q Was there some question there as to who did it?
A Well, nobody never said they had a real good idea about who
did it.
Q Did they ever talk about all the people in the riot and said
something about beating up so-an-so or something like that?
A Well, I never heard much about it, like I thought, I didn't
know about who did it, but I will say royself , I was wondering how it would
be done.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
a tent?
A
Q
Did you hear anyone say they got the rope and hanged him?
There was somebody, he said somebody got a rope or something.
Was that the. rope with which he was hanged?
I don't know, that is what he said.
On the night of the fight did you see anj'one tear a rope off of
I was in my bea-racks.
Battle says you told him that you were down there.
A I can't help what Battle told you, but he is mistaken, I will
say that. I won't say he didn't tell you, I don't know what ha did say.
I don't know what anyone did say.
Q Did you on the night you were ironing clothes see Battles
up there?
A I was in the barracks.
Q You didn't see him during the fight, did you?
A I saw Battle when the fight first started.
Q You didn't see him after it had been going on a minute, did you?
A No, sir, I don't know, I don't recall seeing him. I saw him
standing by his bed folding his clothes. By the time it stopped-- before
it stopped I saw him I remember that veil, he was by the barber.
Q You know about the time the fight stopped ho was back in his
barracks, you know that?
^-&BNf^©EWTOifcL-
ro
(jomisoN)
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By^^NARA Date/' ' '
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Q
A
Oh, sure, I know that.
You know he was there when it stopped?
I know he was hack wlien it stopped.
0 If he went to the Italian Area he went sometime between the
time it started and got hack previous to its ending, is that right?
A That is the way I figured.
Q Did you see Mathis at any time during the fight?
A I don't know exactly what barracks he stays in.
Q He doesn't stay in your harracks?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't see him during the fight?
A If I saw him, I don't remember. Bdttle, he stayed in the barracks,
he was pretty close to where we were working and I don't remember the
other felQow.
^ You know him?
A I thiak I know him, he Is a slender dark complected guy*
He didn't stay in our bai-racks.
Q You didn't see him the night of the fight and while it was
going on?
A I don't remember seeing him.
Q Did you talk to him the following day or Mathis about the fight?
A I never talked about it.
Q Did you lose your dogtags on the night of August lUth?
A No, sir.
Q On the morning of the l^th did someone bring your dogtags to
you while you were in the compound?
A No, sir.
Q You had your- dogtags on?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did Captain Jones ever have your dogtags in his possession?
A Only when he asked for my blood type.
3 V/hen was that?
^-GQNFtB€4^mAL..^
.» -^ '
'b
(JOHNSON)
DECLASSinED
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By^NAR.4 Date/^
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GONftD'^t^TfAi^
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A That wae a good while "before that.
Q Lid he have them lu his poseeseion at the time of the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't Captain Jones or some Lieutenant deliver to Captain Jones
on the morning of the 15 th your dogtags and the chain and Captain Jones
gave them to you?
A The guy you speak of, he is in the 650th and they hr ought the
dogtags to Captain Jones. I saw what you are speaking of and he handed
them through the fence. It wasn't none of mine.
Q Who was the man?
A He is in the stockade, I don't know.
Q You don't know his name?
A I have heard his name. He is one in the stockade I got acquainted
with.
Q Would you know It if you heard it?
A I wouldn't be too sure,
Q Was It Hamilton?
A I would know him wheB I seen him.
Q Did you see the dogtags when they were delivered to Captain Jones?
A I think an officer took them, I am not for sure, hut anyway, he
handed them through the fence. I am a good ways back, we had taken a
break for 5 or 6 minutes, we had been drilling.
Q The officer delivered the dogtags to Captain Jones?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Captain Jones do with them?
A I don't know, air.
Q
A
How do you know they were dogtags?
Since you said dogtags I figured that is what It was, it looked
like it to me. I heard somebody before say It was dogtags, it was brought
up in the daytime, but they wasn't mine.
Q You never did see Captain Jones deliver them to the owner?
A No, sir, I don't know what they did with them.
Q Will you get me the name of the man whose dogtags were delivered
(JOHNSON)
205
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•■; ■■■asa'A-e:
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through the fence to Captain Jones ty another officer on the morning,
of August 15, IS^vk?
A Yes, air.
Q Did you lose a spade that was found in the Italian Area?
A I missed my spade that night.
Q Where were you when you first missed it?
A At my hed.
Q That night?
A That night.
Q Did you report it to anyone?
A No, sir, it wasn't reported.
Q Was the spade later found?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know where it was found?
A No, sir. I had no real good answer where it was found.
Q Did anyone tell you where it was found?
A They told me two or three things about it. I don't know
which one is true.
Q
A
Q
August?
A
Q
spade?
A
Q
A
They told you it was found in the Italian Area?
They Just said that.
Did you take it to the Italian Area?
No, sir.
Where did you last put your spade on the night of the iHh of
On the foot of the bed after I stenciled the lettering on it.
The apade the.t was picked up in the Italian Area was your
So far as I can learn.
The number which was on it was the number you stenciled on it?
That is right.
You didn't carry your spade down there?
No, sir.
-eo-wRQ^eNmAL^.
"-^
(JOHNSON)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ( J '^^^■'>
By^3pNARA Datei^fcnmZ
Reproduced at the National Arclii
.v*... iVJiou*!*.,.
206
*TIAL #
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Q Did you tell me that on the night of the fight an MP took a
flashlight from you?
A No, sir.
Q Did the MP take a flashlight from you on the night of the lUth
of August?
A No, sir, not me.
(THOMAS BATTLE enters the room)
Q Thomas, in your testimony awhile ago you testified that Herman
Johnson told you after the fight hetween the Italians and the colored
soldiers on the Bigiit of August lUth, that while he was in the Italian
Area the MP took a flashlight from his hands; is that right?
PVT. BATTLE: He told me that on the 15th. We was in the
stockade .
Q That is the next day after the fight he told you what I have
Just repeated?
PVT. BATTLE: Now, he wasn't talking to me, I walked up at the
time he was speaking it and that MP asked for the light and he gave it
to him.
Q You also testified that Herman said he was in the Italian Area
on the night of the fight?
PVT. BATTLE: I did.
Q Herman, what do you say to that testimony?
A He is lying.
Q Battle, you see a man sitting "before you. Do you know him
personally?
PVT. BATTLE: I don't know him personally, I know him since I
have been in the stockade.
Q Do you know who this man is that you now oh serve?
PVT. BATTLE: Corporal Herman Johnson.
Q Is he the man who talked to you in your presence and said that
he was in the Italian Area on the night of August lUth, I9I1U?
PVT. BATTLE: Yes, sir.
Q, He is the man who said that?
PVT. BATTLE: Yes, sir.
-CONFIDENTIAL
1089
(JOHNSON)
h'' -.
^^
Reproduced at the National Arctw
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "J '3 ^ '^^^J >
207
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Q Is he the same man who said in your presence that the MP took
a flashlight from him on the night of August lUth, 194^ while he was
in the Italian Area?
FVT. BATHE: He is, yes, sir.
(THCMAS BAT'HE is excused and leaves the room)
i Herman, you have heard Private Battle's testimony that while
talking to some other members of the 650th and 65l8t you were heard
to say you were in the Italian Area and while there an MP took a
flashlight from your possession. What answer do you have to that?
A Sir, it is a lie. I reckon you are telling the truth, I heard
him.
Q But what he said is untrue?
A It is not true.
Q You were not in the Italian Area at all?
A I never was there.
-DPNFIDENTf:
1090
(JOHHSON) (END)
208
• confidential #
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Further teatiaiony of Private Rotert Mathis.
taken at Seattle, Washington on 2? September 1941*
ty Lieut. Colonel Cui'tis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was reminded he was still under oath and of
his rights as a witness under the 2l4-th Article of War.
Q Do you know Herman Johnson?
A Yes, sir, I know him.
Q Have you seen him here today?
A Yes, sir, I seen him here.
Q Were you in the stockade and present when Herman Johnson discussed
his part in the riot on the night of August lUth, 19^U?
A What he said in the stockade?
Q Did you heeo" him say anything in the stockade?
A No, sir, I didn't.
9 You didn't hear Herman Johnson say anything ahout his part in
the fight on August ll^th, 19*^^^?
A No, sir.
Q Were you present with Battle when Hennan Johnson was talking ahout
being in the fight?
A Was I preseat?
Q Yes, wei'e you there?
A I haven't heard him say anything ahout the fight since I have
been knowing him.
Q The night of the fight were you in tne "barracka with Herman?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hear him discussing it after the fight?
A During the fight he was in the barracks.
Q He didn't go to the fight?
A No, sir, he was ironing.
Q, He was ironing all the time he was there?
A Yes, sir.
-Ef3f^i«-&eNTtAt —
J.
(MATEIS)
209
♦.SON^lOtEI^TIAL #
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Q You saw him all the time you were there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hear him talking ahout the fight after it was over?
A I didn't pay any attention to the fight. I haven't paid
any attention to what he was saying. Possibly he might have, I don't
know.
Q You cannot say whether he talked ahout the fight after it occurred
on the night of August l^vth?
A I cannot.
Q Did you ever hear Herman Johnson say the MP's took a flashlight
from hid?
A Ho, sir, not in my presence.
Q He never made such a statement in your presence?
A No, sir.
Q He never did say he lost a flashlight?
A . No, sir.
Q Did you hear him say he lost a shovel?
A No, sir.
Q The night you say you were in the barracks while the fighting
was going on, did you hear Johnson say he was missing a shovel?
A I did not.
44
45
-— e&N-pt&eN"=f4A4^
(MATHIS) (end)
f" 'i'
...irtiffiir^'
DECLASSinED
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Testimony of Pvt. Jesse Sima, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 28 September 19^t oj
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was aworn.
Q State your name, rank, organization, and serial number.
A Private Jesse Sims, 585^^875, 650th Port Company,
Fort Lawton.
Q Do you understand your rights as a witness under the 2Uth
Article of War?
A I don't read nor vrite.
(Investigating Officer reads and explains 2lt-thArticle of War)
Q Where were you on the night of August lUth, 19^'<- when there
was a riot out at Fort Lawton wherein the colored soldiers and the
Italians of the 28th Italian Quartermaster Company had a fight, do ycu
remember that night?
A Yee, sir, I remember that night.
Q Were you present at Fort Lawton the night it happened?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the first you knew about the fight?
A Well, the first thing I knew about the fight was they was
ouu and some boy hollored, "Let's go."
Where do you sleep, in barracks 7I9?
Yes, sir.
Right across from Building 7OO, the mess hall?
Yee, sir.
And were you in your barracks when you heard those fellows
Yea, sir, I v/as upstairs shooting dice.
Who were you shooting dice with?
Me, Aillie Scott, Richard Suttiiff , Stanley Bore, A. G. Joyce-
Q
A
Q
A
Q
holler?
A
A
Jupiter, ani myself.
-eONf^&E N T I A L-
(31113)
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/ _,
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Q When you first heard this did you go outside the building?
A Ko, sir, not right then.
Q Who came up and said, "Let's go"?
A We was down shoot iiag crapa, I don't know who hollered, "Let's
go.
Q What did he say^ let's go down and mob the Italians?
A One of the Italians down there had "been knocked out, one of
the boys out here.
Q And he explained further, let's go down and beat the hell out
of the Italians?
A No, he Just said, 'let's go, the Italians knocked out one of
our boys," and they were talking about what they were going to do.
We kept shooting craps.
Q Now, what did the men meaa who had been talking about what
they were goitig to do?
A I guesa he meant-- well, I can't say what he meant.
Q W}iat did you feel h& meant?
A I ce.n't sweeu' what he meant, goln£ down there ind fighting
them, that ia all I could say.
gamei
What time was it when you heard that, df.d you stop tne dice
No, sir, Che dice game lidn't stop then.
Q How long did you stay in the dice game before you left?
A I would aay about a minute-- I guess I might havct stayed t-bout
ten minutes.
A
Q
A
Who left the dice game at the tine whf3n the hollsring was going on?
Didn't nobody le&.Te right then.
Th&y all stayed there?
Yes, sir, then.
Later who was the first man that loft thd dice game?
3cott, he goi: up, I don't know where he went.
A
Willie Scott left the dice game first?
Eo sail he got up and went hoiae. 1 don't know, he oaae iownsTiairs.
(3Il.iS)
212
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Q After you started downatairs you saw scjue "boys standing in front
of the buildings?
A Yee, aii*. ;•
them?
Q
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^That vera they doing In front of Building 719 when you first saw
Just standing "by Willi© Montgomery.
They were all gathered around Willie Montgomery?
Yes, sir.
What were they saying?
I don't remeDBtoer what they were saying.
Q Weren't there a lot of them saying they were going down and
heat the hell out of the Italians?
A I didn't heeir them say that.
Q What did you hear?
A Mostly I heeurd-- there was already a gang down there.
Q Some had already gone down there?
A They had gone down.
Q Did you, as you stood in front of Building 719 hear noise in the
Italian Area at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you hear?
A Chunking.
Q Breaking out \Mb window glass?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hear any Italians screaming?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear any colored soldiers hollering?
A No, sir, I nerer heard that.
Q Chunking against the window?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did it sound like individuals were "being hit?
A No, sir.
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Q Where did you go then?
A Then I came on down Into the area myself.
Q Did you see a great crowd around the mess hall across Virginia
Avenue from Building 719?
A Yes, sir, there was a great number of them.
Q What was that crowd doing?
A I don't know.
Q Did you go over to the crowd?
A No, sir.
Q Which route did you take after leaving Building 719 to go to the '
Italian Area?
A I came right from 7l8. I came across the road and went on
the left side of the mesa hall and came down there.
Q You went straight down Lawton Road?
A Yes, sir.
Q Down to the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, as you went down the road, you saw some people up and down
that road?
A Well, T seen 2 or 5 down that road. Most of them were in the
area at that time.
Q Pwo or three were going into the area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were they that you saw that you recognized?
A Well, I made out who they was after I got there.
Q Who were they?
A Willie SlllB and I can't think of his name now, he come over
with the company-- Freddie Slmmona.
Q Did you see Sergeant Hurks?
A No, sir, he was already down there.
Q Then Freddie Simmons and Willie Sills were going down Lawton Road
toward the Italian Area as you went down the road on the night of August
lUth, 19'+'+?
i:Q^fPtsEN1^^7ArL--^
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A Yes, sir.
Q What did Willie have in his hand as you saw him?
A Nothing.
Q And Simmons had nothing?
A He neyer had anything.
Q Had you picked up a club?
A I had a little piece of 1-hy-U.
Q You had a little piece of 1-hy-l^?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you got toward the Italian Area in the rear of the mess hall,
ahout this road here, who did you see that you recognized?
A I didn't see anyhody other than the same two.
Q Did they accompany you or did all three of you go together?
A No, sir, I was "by myself.
Q Which way did you go after you got to the intersection of
Wyoming Aven'je and Lawton Road?
A I came in- - I am Just making an estimate, you know where the
orderly room is?
Q Yes.
A I came in "between the latrine and here.
Q Then you came down Lawton Road until you hit Wyoming Avenue they
you went behind 708 and 709 "by the latrine?
A That is where the tents were, I stopped by the tents.
Q
A
That tent that has been knocked down?
Yes, sir.
Q After you left the Intersection of Lawton and Wyoming, you proceeded
through the Italian Area. Did you see any colored soldiers or anyone whom
you recognized between Building 708 and the tent where you eventually stopped?
A I seen one boy, I think they call him Johnnie Sanders.
Q You saw Johnnie Sanders?
A Richard Sanders.
Q What was Richard doing whe^ you saw him?
(SIMS)
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A He got in the Jeep and ran into the tent and tore the tent down,
tore the side up with the Jeep.
Q Did you see Willie Curry in the Jeep?
A No, sir.
Q Then Richard Sanders got in the Jeep and was driving it against
the tent?
A Yes, sir, I was looking at him.
Q Is Richard Sanders a noncommissioned officer or Just a private?
A Just a private.
Q How many times did Richard run the Jeep into the twit?
A I would say ahout 6 or 8 times hack and forth.
Q, Now, where was Jeep sitting when Richard got in?
A The tent was right here, the Jeep was standing opposite hetween
the orderly room and the tent.
Q Was it sitting heside another car that was covered with a white
cloth or white sheet?
A I don't think it was, I think It was sitting beside the tent.
Q When you first saw it?
A Yes, sir, I seen him get in it.
Q Did you at any time during the night either previous to the time
you saw Richard Sanders or subsequent to the time you saw Richard in the
Jeep see anyone else in the Jeep?
A No, sir, I never seen no one else.
Q How long did you stay in that area?
A I hadn't been in there but about maybe 10 minutes.
Q When you saw Richard get in the car--
A I Just had got there.
Ci When you first arrived near Building 715 at the point where the
Jeep was being driven against the tent, he was In the Jeep driving it
against the tent?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was doing that when you first arrived there?
A Yes, sir.
-GDNFiDEHl^lAk--
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A Yes, sir.
Q Now, \rtio else did you see in the vicinity of the tent as you
stood tiear It?
A Freddie Siinnons was the only one.
Q Where did you see Freddie?
A He was standing in front, nearly about facing the orderly room.
Q In front of the tent which was across the path from you?
A Here's the tent, here is where this hoy was standing and me
looking at him, Freddie was standing over hero.
Q Near the other tent? '^
A Near the other tent.
Q What was he doing?
A Stsaiding up.
Q Did he have a club?
A I didn't see him with no club.
Q Did you see Freddie any more that night?
A Not until we got back up there.
Q Did you talk to Freddie about what part he played in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q You never heard him say what he did?
A No, sir.
Q Who else did you see?
A David Walton.
Q What was David doing when you saw him?
A He had a club In front of the orderly room.
Q What was he doing with the club?
A Nothing then.
Q Did he have it raised over his head in his hand?
A It was in his hand.
Q What kind of a club was it?
A k little club about that long.
CDNFiDENTlAL...
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Q About 3| or k feet long?
A Yes, Blr.
Q Was it a llmt off a tree?
A Well, I don't know, I didn't get close enough to see, I don't
think it was a limb off a tree.
Q You think it was a hoard, a 2-hy-U?
A Yes, sir. ^
Q Now, after 70U saw David Walton, who else outside did you see?
A Nohody else.
Q Weren't there a lot of fellows all around this huilding, running
all around while you were standing there watching them?
A I seen a gang running along chunking and going on.
Q You saw a lot of hoys running around and the colored hoys chasing
the Itedians?
A I didn't see no Italians no more than in the orderly room.
Q Outside the huilding did you see some Italians running and some
colored soldiers chasing them?
A No, sir.
Q While you stood hy the tent, did you see an Italian Jump out of
Building 709?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see any Italians in the huilding?
A I ain't seen none inside that huilding.
Q Did you see any colored soldiers euround that huilding?
A I didn't see any around there.
Q When you arrlTed at the scene of the fight, it all seemed to he
centered around the orderly room, 715?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then you didn't see any others outside the huilding other than
those you named whom you told me ahout?
A Those was the only ones. I don't know the names of lots of
guys down there.
Q To refresh your recollection, even though you didn't know them
.4 — ^.^^
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(SIMS)
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that night since that time while 70U have been in the etockeide you have
associated the face you saw with the name.
'A There was Montgomery.
Q Eoy Montgomery?
A Yes, sir.
Q VHiere did you see Roy?
A Standing in front of the orderly room.
Q What did he have in his hand?
A A club in his hand.
Q I^id you see Eoy strike anyone?
A No, sir.
Q How long did Eoy stand in front of the orderly room as you
watched him?
A He was standing there, then he had his hand drawn up and hollering
for the boys to stop, "Let's see what the American soldiers have to
say," that is what he said.
Q Who else did you see outside the building that you can
associate the face with the name you subsequently learned?
A There is not any more, because I didn't know their names.
Q That was all that was on the outside?
A Yes, sir, the other guys, after they went to the company here,
I could possibly recognize lota of them by their face.
Q A lot of fellows you saw that night, you don't know their names,
but if you see them again you can recognize their faces and point them out?
A Yes, sir. I told you about Booker Thornton.
Q Where did you see Booker?
A I didn't see him in the area at the time, but when I was going
back out after the MP's came and made them leave, I had been there Just
about 10 minutes before the MP's came and I met Booker Thornton and he
said he knew he knocked hell out of one twice.
Q What did Booker say he hit him with, a club?
A A club.
q Did he say what kind of a fellow he hit?
Italian.
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Q Did he saywhere he hit him?
A No, sir, I don't think it was inside the building.
Q Booker Thornton told you he knocked hell out of a couple of
Italians?
A He knocked hell out of one twice.
Q
area?
Q
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there?
A
Did Booker still have his club with him as he walked out of the
I don't know whether he did or not, but I think he did.
Did he show you the club he said he used?
No, sir, he didn't show it to me.
You didn't see him throw his club down?
No, sir.
Did you see John Lee Hamilton down there that night?
I believe I seen him go in the orderly room.
With a club in his hand as he entered the orderly room?
I never paid any attention when I seen him go in there.
Did you see him after he got inside the orderly room?
No, sir, I never did see him after that.
Did you see him after he came out?
When he came back to the barracks.
Did you talk to John about the part he played while he was down
No, sir, I didn't.
Q After you observed what was going on outside the building
as you stood near the orderly room, what did you see going on inside the
building?
A Nothing inside the building, but they were chunking, still
chunking going on inside the orderly room,
Q These colored soldiers were using their clubs?
A Chunking.
Q Ihrowing rocks, hitting them over the head, and chunking them
with clubs?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Could you see inside the building?
A Yes, sir, from where I was standing I could see inside the
orderly room windov.
Q What were they doing in there? Who did you see inside the
orderly room?
A I don't remember — what do you mean, the colored soldiers?
Q Yes.
A I don't remember seeing anyone of them in there right then.
Q You saw them later?
A I saw them later.
Q Who did you see inside the building right then you recognized?
A I would "be scared to say.
Q There is no use being scared to say. All I want are the boys you
saw.
A That is what I am trying to get now, trying to be sure. It seems
like Willie Ellis went in there.
Q What did you see Willie Ellis doing inside the building?
A I think when he want in he wasn't doing anything but getting
sticks, rocks, and things.
Q Just throwing rocks and sticks through the windows?
A Yes, sir. I don't know, but they told me the MP's told them
to go In there and bring them out of there, but I know some of them
did go in but they didn't bring none of them out while I was standing
there .
Q You say you had about a 1-by-U?
A That is exactly what I had.
Q Do you recall any colored soldiers who were part of the group —
A Well, this is when they hollered and they all left from up there
that tore down the little fence.
Q Who suggested they get clubs there?
A That Is what I don't know.
Q Was It Sergeant Hurks?
A He hollered, "Come on, let's go," and he was the first man that
grabbed a club, he was the first one that tore the fence down and the rest
taken out behind him and grabbed pieces of board.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Q Sergeant Hurks was the first one to grat a 'boarcL and holler
"come on, let's go"?
A Yes, sir, "but some of them had gone on down and used rocks.
Q So that the first group went down. Who was the leader of that group?
A I don't know.
Q Weren't you oU% there?
A Ho, sir, I wasn't, I was coming downstairs when I seen the first
group. , ... ;
Q Ahout what time did you arrive, atout the time Sergeant Hurks
led his group down there?
A He led his group down and I came behind when I went to see thls-f
hoy knocked out.
Q After you came out the door and got in the tig crowd, you heard
Sergeant Hurks say, "Come on, let's go", and started out with a club?
A When I came down from upstairs there was some following Hurks,
some had gone down, I could see them going down.
went?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Hurks was leading a group of his own down there?
Yes, sir-
Dld any others leave "between the time Hurks left and when you
I don't remember seeing any.
Did you hear any whistle "being "blown around there that night?
I rememher hearing one whistle, I don't know if the MP blowed
it.
Q Did you hear a whistle that night?
A I wouldn't say-- I heard Sergeant Hurks say, "Come on, let's go,"
and I heard Jupiter say he wanted a whistle, then I heard a whistle,
in the meantime is when the MP's came.
Q Let's go "back to the orderly room again. I hand you Exhi"bit Q
and ask jo\x to point out to me whei-e you saw the colored soldiers inside
the Building 715 that you recognized?
A Well, Willie was going In this side door.
Q Willie Ellis came in Door E?
A Yes, air.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Q, Where did he go?
A He came on through the hlg room.
Q Room X?
A Yee, sir.
Q Who else did you see there?
A Without making no mistake, I think I seen Freddie Simmons.
Q He also went in Door into Boom X?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Freddie have in his hand?
A I don't know, he might have had a cluh in his hand, at least,
I figiu'ed he had something.
Q
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You eft*' something in his hand?
Yee, sir.
You don't know what it was, a cluh or a shovel or what he had?
No, sir.
Where did you see Flathis?
Mathls-- v,:^:it Mathis are you teJking about?
The Mathls out there with you, Robert.
I don't remember seeing him down there.
Didn't you see Robert Mathls?
No, sir.
Didn't you see him chopping the door down?
No, sir, I didn't see him.
Johnnie Lee Hamilton, did you see him?
I think he came on through.
John lee Hamilton went through Door E?
T think he did, he came In the front door, I believe he came
in the front door.
Q John lee Hamilton went into the front door into Room X through Door
A Yes, sir.
D?
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Q What did John Lee Hamilton have when you saw him?
A I think he had a cluh too.
Q Did you see John Lee Hamilton hit any Itedians?
A I ain't seen nohody hit after I came in this room.
Q Where did you see them hit them first, where was the first fellow
you saw hit an Italian?
A It was there at the window.
Q At this window?
A There was a rock chW^^^ed i^ tti.B window and hit here.
Q Who threw that rock?
A I don't know who did.
Q Who did you see throwing in the window, you know who it was that
was throwing?
A I don't know their names.
Q And you saw somehody on the outside throw a rock and hit a
man right in the right eye?
Q
A
Q
roomr
Q
A
Yes, sir.
And this man was inside Boom Y when he was hit?
Yes, sir.
And the rock was thrown through the window that goes into the
Near the door.
And you saw him throw it?
Yes, sir.
Q Who was among that group around the window?
A I am not certain, I can't call all the names, "but it was,
I helleve. Sergeant Greshem, he was In that group and there was some
hoys out of the other company.
Q Who else besides Gresham did you see at that window?
A I wouldn't be so sure but I think I seen a lad by the name
of Nethaniel Spencer.
Q Where do you think you saw Nathaniel, In the grout standing
by the window of Eoom Y?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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A YeB, Bir.
Q Vho else?
A There was one, his name is down here too, he was the one that
blew the whistle.
A
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room?
Aq
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A
Larkin?
Yes, sir.
You saw Larkin standing at the window?
I saw him go in there, he was in the room when I saw him.
What did he have in his hand when you saw him go in the
I don't know what-- a knife, it looked about that long.
It looked like a knife?
I canndt say what kind of a knife it was, but it looked like a
knife placed in a scabbard, I can't tell you much about it.
Q Anyway, it looked like a knife?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which door did Larkin go in when you first saw him, through
Door E or A?
A When I seen bim he was standing up.
Q In Foom F?
A Yes, sir, I don't know what way he got In.
Q Did you see Larkin go on into Room X?
A He came on through this room here. . •
Q Into Room X, you observed him go in that room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Larkin after he got in this room?
A Yes, sir, I saw him stand-ing up in this room.
Q What was he doing?
A Just standing up.
Q, Did he have a knife?
A Whatever It was he had it.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Q Did he ever draw it "back or did he Just carry it in his hand?
A I didn't see him with it drawn "back.
Q You saw him when he had it in his hand?
A Yes, sir.
Q Vho else did you ©©e?
A Nathaniel Spencer.
Q You named him.
A Yes, sir. I think Sergeant Palmer, I ain't sure.
Q Where do you think you saw Sergeant Palmer?
A There in that group.
Q In the group looking into the window of Eoom Y?
A That is right.
Q Did you seeCeaser?
A It seems like I saw Ceaser, I think I did.
Q Where did you see John Ceaser?
A I helieve he was standing there in that place.
Q In this door?
A Around In this bunch.
Q In this hunch hy Room Y?
A Yee, sir.
Q What did John have in his hand?
A I cannot say, I don't know.
Q A cluh, didn't he?
A A cluh-- I can't say if he had a cluh or a knife.
Q But he had something?
A He had something.
q Wps John the one that threw the rock through the window and hit
the fellow in the eye?
A I don't know who it was.
Q But he was one of that group you have nemed that stood at that
window and who threw and hit the man?
A Yes, sir, and Chandler.
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Q Chandler?
A I "believe I sav Chandler.
Q Where did you firat see Chandler?
A In this door then he comes in here.
Q Chandler went through Door E and entered Room X then come into
Eoom Y?
A Yes, sir, he vas getting-- what do you csdl those things that
had legs and sits on the corners with little prongs on it?
Q Butt can holders?
A No, sir, I don't think so.
Q You mean it had legs?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't see hit hit anyone?
A No, sir.
Q Are you sure you saw him all the time?
A Yes, sir, until he came "back in here.
Q I show you a 2-'by-2 which Is a'bout \\ feet long and ask you if
that is the "board that you saw Chandler pick up while he vas in Eoom
Y and take it through Door C into Hoom X?
A It was huilt like that, "but it didn't have no platform on
it, it was "built this way.
Q It was a 2-by-l| of white color and ahout that long?
A I don't know whether It was white, "but it was a'bout that tall,
it was a hat rack or a coat rack or whatever you might call the thing.
Q How a'bout this?
A This is what I seen, a hat rack, it was similar to that.
(INVESTIGATING OFFICER: Let the record show the witness was shown
a 2-hy-2 which the witness identified as 'being similar to the o'bject
picked up "by Chandler ae the witness observed him in Room Y, and it was
carried out of Room Y in the hands of Chandler into Room X on the night
of August lUth, I9W,)
Q Who else did you see down there? Did you see Roy Daymond?
Was he in the group that stood by Room Y and looked Into the window?
A I think he was in that group, he was in the group that stood
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1 ty the window that leads into Room Y when I first otserved Roy.
3; Q Where else did you see him that night in the area?
4' A After I seen him he left and I didn't see him until I came
5 hack in the harrackB.
Q You didn't see him any more in the area?
8j A No, sir.
9j ■- ■ - .
10; Q Did you see Walter Jackson?
Hi A Yes, sir.
12I
isi Q Where was he?
14 A By the window.
15
16 Q With the group you named hy the window and many of them were
17 throwing in the window as you watched them?
18 A Yes, sir, many of them.
19
20 Q Which one hit the Italian In the eye?
21 A I cannot say.
22
23 Q But you did see a whole group throwing and you saw one rock hit
S-i an Italian in the right eye?
25 A I don't know whether it was the right eye, but it was up here.
26
27 Q It was on the Forehead?
28 A Yes, sir.
29
30 Q Did you see Johnson, George L. Johnson?
3' A As far as I know, I am telling you what I heard. I heard that
32 William G. Jones, Eoy Daymond, and Walter Jackson and this Montgomery,
33 Willieim Montgomery, I heard that he was the one that st«irted the fight.
34
35 Q Up around Building TOO they were when they started the fight with
36 the whole hunch?
37 A Yea, sir.
38
39 Q When you were shooting crap and someone came up and hollered
•^0 for everyone to go out that there was a fight going on, that. That man
'*' was who, the man that made that statement?
42 A William G. Jones.
43
■^"^ Q Did you see Luther Larkln up there about that time looking for
-^5 a whistle?
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A Ye was up there too.
Q At the same time Jones was?
A I think Luther Larkln came up and this— I don't rememher Roy
Daymond, hut I do Luther Larkin and William G. Jones.
Q Both were saying for everyhody to get out in the fight?
A Yes, sir. Luther I know has a whistle.
Q He did get a whistle?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he say what he was going to do with the whistle?
A No, sir.
Q He left with the whistle?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hear the whistle after he went outside?
A No, sir, I wasn't paying much attention whether he was going to
blow the whistle or not.
Q You don't know if he hie* it or wan going to blow it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Ke was going to turn out the company and they were goiqp down
and heat the hell out of the Italians and that is what he wanted the
whistle for?
A I figured that was what was going to happen. One of the Italians
was waiting up here and he had a knife and he said he intended to catch
him and cut him and one of the hoys came up "behind him, I don't know
who that was, hut this hoy hits the Italian over the head.
Q \Vho were you talking about?
A I heard one of the hoys say it.
Q Who?
A David Walton, I believe.
Q David said he was Inside Room X?
A Yes, sir, but I remember seeing him go in here.
Q David Walton came through Door A?
A He was standing In this room.
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Q You saw Walton enter Door A and he was in the isle between
Door A and D?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he go into Room X?
A He came into this room.
Q Did you see what Walton did after he got in there?
A No, sir.
Q Later after the fight was over you talked to Walton?
A No, sir.
Q Did you he£ir Walton talking to someone else about what he saw
while he was in that room?
A He said if he hadn't hit one of the Italians he reckoned he
would have killed this Roy Montgomery.
Q Why did he figure if he hadn't hit him he would have killed
Roy Montgomery?
A I don't know.
Q Tellme the reason why he felt he saved Roy Montgomery's life?
A When he was standing out here he said the Italian Jumped off
the desk and when he Jumped off the desk he said he Jumped and grahhed
this hoy.
Q Montgomery?
A Yes, sir, and I don't know whether he knew he had a knife, he
said he saved this hoy's life, he never did see what the Italian had.
■i Do you know William Howard?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was he doing?
A He was down there battling.
Q In the orderly room?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he have, a big club or a knife?
A A club, that Is all I know.
Q Did you see him hit some of them?
A I seen him when he went In.
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Q Which door did he go in?
A This first one.
Q Door A into Eoom X through Door D?
A Yes, sir, in here.
Q Did you see him af tpr he got into Room X?
A No, sir, I never did see him after he got in here.
Q Did you see Hurks doing any chunking?
A I couldn't swear what he was doing.
Q He was there chunking?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see C. W. Spencer?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was he doing when you saw him?
A I think he was in the hack, I think he was in the chunking.
Did you see Spencer throw any rocks himself?
A He was in tha hunch, whether he threw any I don't know, I know
there was a million rocks going in there.
Q Did you see Manual Ford?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Corporal Manual Ford in the Italian Area on the
night of August ll+th, 19^1^?
A He vfas down there.
Q What was he doing?
A Sir, I don't knov what he done or what he was doing, he was
down there, I know that I remember seeing hira.
Q.
A
Q
What did he say he had done?
I don't reneriber him saying he had done anything.
Luther Larkln?
Yes, sir, he was there.
Q What was Luther larkln doing when you saw him in the Italian Area
on the night of August ll+th, 19^^^? Did he have a knife down there?
A I believe he did.
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Q Did you see him vith a Icnife?
A No, sir, I didn't see hiia with atiy knife at all.
Q Riley L. Buckner, where did you see P.iley the first time on
the night of August iHh, 19^U in the Italian Area?
A Eight around th5.s spot.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Standing in the vicinity of the tent?
Yes, sir.
What was he doing when you first saw him?
He wasn't doing anything, Just standing there.
Did he have a cluh?
Practically everyhody had a club.
Then Filey had a cluh?
I would say he had a cluh, practically everyone did that went
down there.
Q
A
I9UI+?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Did you see Piley heat up anyhody down there?
No, sir.
William Cunningham, did you sec hia on the night of August lUth,
I seen him when he was on the way coming "back.
What was he doing?
Coming hack out.
Did he have a cluh in his hand?
I don't remember seeing any.
Did he say anything about what he had done?
No, sir.
Q But you did see him coming out on the night of August lUth
after the fight was over?
A Yes, sir.
Q Arthur Stone, where did you see him on the migiit -^f August llvth,
I94U while you i/ere la the Italian Area?
A fie was scaading opposite the house.
%
Opposite here'
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A Yes, sir.
Q He was looking into Room S, looking through the window?
A Yes, sir.
Q Vfhat was he doing?
A Standing there.
Q Did he have a club in his hand?
A I don't remember if he had anything in his hand. There were
lolus of them possihly down there that didn't hare anything, Just standing
and looking.
Q Richaird Barber, where did you see him on the night of August ll)-th,
191+4 during the riot?
A He was down there hecause I heard him say something about it whan
he come hack, "but he didn't say what he done.
Q Yqu saw him as he was coming "back?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you see him after you left the area of the road?
A He was in the harracks when I got hack up there.
Q Did he hring his cluh "back with him?
A I didn't see him with no club.
Q Did he say what he had done?
A He was -- he said he knocked the devil out of one of them, 1 am.
not sui'e, "but I believe he was talking about something he had done.
A
Q
19W+?
A
he was.
Q
A
A
He said he had knocked the devil out of a couple of them?
He was down there since I got to thinking of it.
Curtis Bibb, where did you see him on the night of August lUth,
Sir, I aitft for sure whether he was down there, but I think he
'frtiere do you think you saw him?
By the bunch doing all the chunking.
By the window in Room Y?
Yes, sir.
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Q Frank Hughes, where did you see him in the Italian Area?
A Frank comes in this house.
Q Inside the "building?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Frank have in his hand?
A A cluh.
Q Did you see him hit anyone after he came inside the "building?
A Ho, sir, "but when he came out he said he heat the hell out of
one,
Q Frank told tou after you saw him come out of Building 713 on
the night of August 1'4-th that he had heat the hell out of somebody inside?
A Yes, sir.
Q He had a club in his hand when he entered the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you ever see Frank any more that night?
A I seen him when he came back to the barracks.
Q Did you have any conversation with him when he came back to the
barracks?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear him talk about what he had done down there when he
came back to the barracks?
A When he was coming out.
Q Did Walter Jackson accompany Luther Larkin and William G. Jones
to Barracks 719 and assist them in summoning the members of that
barracks to come outside and Join in the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Walter say to the boys in Barracks 719?
A I never did hear him say anything more than he knocked one of
the boys out'.
Q Did he say, come on out, let's go get them?
A No, sir, I never did hear that.
Q You didn't see him any more that night?
A Ho, sir.
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Q Loary Moore, did you see him ou the night of August iHh, 191^1^?
A Yes, sir, he was there.
Q In the vicinity of the tents?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Moore have in his hand?
A They all left out vith cluhs, that is wliat I seen, clubs.
Q You saw him leave the vicinity of Building 700?
A Yes, sir.
Q And go to the Italian Area?
A Away from 719-
Q And he had a club then?
A Y«3, sir.
Q Then you saw him again in the Italian Area standing around
near the tents?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he still had a club?
A Yea, air,
Q Did you see Moore with anybody?
A No, sir, I didn't see him with anyone.
Q Now, after you stood in the vicinity of Building 715 and saw all
these people whom you have named, where did you go?
A After I left from down here in the Italian Area?
Q No ¥hile standing by the tents, where did you go?
A I stayed right there and when I left from there I came back up
to the barracks, 719.
Q When you left the area of Building 715; what caused you to
leave that area?
A That is when the MP's had met down there.
Q When the ICP'a arrived you left the area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you see the first MP arrive?
A I was standing here and the MP's came in here on Wyoming Avenue
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1 to this little spot right here and I leaves from here and they came through
2 and stopped and a whistle hlew and they came through here.
3
4 Q All the colored boys started to come up toward Building 719?
5^ A Yea, sir, toward 719^ some went on this side of the mess hedl
6 and some went across the street.
7,
8l Q Some went across Wyoming Avenue in between Building 700 and some
9! went "back up Lawton Road, to the intersection of Lawton Soad and Virginia
10' Avenue?
ni A Yes, sir.
12:
13: Q Which way did you go?
14 A I cam© straight across.
15
16 Q You came out of the Italian ^re& behind Building 709 and 708
17 up the steps?
!8 A Right straight up the steps.
19
20 Q And passed between Building 7OI and 700 and back to Barracks 719?
21 A Yes, air.
22
23 Q When you arrived back at 719, what happened there?
24 A When I got back there, there was a gang standing there, there
25 was 2 or 5 MP's standing together.
26
27 Q What did the MP's say to you boys when they were standing in
28 front of Building 719?
29 A They told them to go in and lay down and go to bed. Some of them
30 still stayed there and they told them not to go back in there.
31
32 Q Did you hear one of the MP's talking to Sergeant Hurks in front
33 of Building 719?
Yes, sir, I believe I did.
Do you know who that MP was?
No, sir, I don't know, but I heard him say he was from Texas.
What did he say to Sergeant Hurks?
Nothing, except Hurks asked him where he was from.
And he said he was from Texas?
Yes, sir.
was he a pretty good sized fellow?
34
A
35
36
Q
37
A
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39
Q
40
A
41
42
Q
43
A
44
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0
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719?
No, sir, he was a long slender fellow. '■:> ;
Did he have long sideturns?
No, sir.
How many MP's were talking to the crowd in front of Building
I didn't see hut ahout two.
Q Did you hear some MP say to Sergeant Hurks, " You hoys did a good
J oh and saved us from having to do it."
A Now, I am not sure of that. I heard some of them say the MP's
said that, hut I didn't hear it.
Q You didn't hear it yourself?
A No, air.
Q All you heard the MP's say was to go back in the harraiiks and
go to sleep?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you go hack in the harracks?
A I went In and went to bed.
Q Did you go to sleep?
A I must have, I didn't wake up until the next morning.
Q After you went to bed did any officers or any MP's come into the
barracks?
A There was one MP and I don't know whether it was a Major or a
Lieutenant, the two of them came in and got this Willie Montgomery and
the MP packed him out and put him-- put him in a Jeep and taken him to
the hospital.
Q Do you know where Willie had been before he went to bed that
night?
A I don't know.
Q While you were in the Italian Area on the night of August lUth,
19UU, did you see any colored soldiers grab hold of an Italian and drag
him toward the woods?
A No, sir.
Q Are you sure you didn't?
A Yes, sir.
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woods?
A
Did you see any IteuLiane run from out of the area into the
I didn't see none of them run out.
Q Did you see one come out of the orderly room "being chased by
another colored soldier?
A No, sir, I ain't seen that.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
hung.
Q
A
Q
A
Who did this hanging?
I don't know, sir.
Do you haye any idea?
No, sir.
Did you hear anybody talking about it?
Not until the next morning, I heard Pinckney say he found a man
What did the boys say?
I ain't heard none say nothing.
You didn't hear them say anything?
No, sir.
Q Now, since you have been in the guard house haven't you heard
them talking about it?
A No, sir, I don't know who could have did it. Some of them figure
it was suicide and some figure — I heard an Italian, he was in the
guard house and I heard him say how come they didn't get the white boys
in there.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
In the hanging?
No, that was in the riot.
You didn't see any white boys?
Only the MP, that is what I seen there.
Did you hit anyone?
No, sir.
You did have a club?
Yes, sir, a 1-by-U.
You had a piece of board 1-by-l; by 3 feet long?
Just about.
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Q And you didn't hit anyone?
A I never hit a man.
Q You Just stood there?
A Just stood there.
Q You didn't find it necessary to tap one a little "bit?
A There wasn't no use of me getting in there, the Italians and the
colored "boys were all fighting and I ain't seen laone of them ccme out,
Q You weren't in the orderly room?
A I nerer was in there, I was standing on the outside.
Q None of them came running "by you?
A No, sir, I ain't seen none of them come out.
Q None of them got in your way in other words?
A No, sir.
G
A
You didn't have the opportunity to hit anyone?
If he came hy and didn't "bother me, I would he standing looking
at him but if he tried to hit me I may have hit him. I was standing
down there looking.
0 Now, since the fight and while you have "been in the guard house
you have heard them talking a"bout this?
A No, sir, I haven't.
Q The hoys don't talk ahout this thing?
A They ain't heen talking.
Q Do you have anything else you would like to add to your
testimony?
A No, sir.
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TeBtlmony of T/5 Willie S. Curry, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 28 September 19^U "by
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, serial number, and organization.
A T/5 Willie S. Curry, l8209lt-65, 651st Port Company, Fort Lawton,
Washington.
Q Do you understand your rights as a witness under the 2ii-th Article
of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you rememher the night of August lUth, 19*^1^ when there was
a fight between the Italian soldiers and the colored soldiers at Fort
lawton?
A Yes, sir.
<t Where were you that night ahout 10:30?
A I don't know exactly what time it was the first sergeant called
me over to the orderly room, I went over there, me and another soldier
and we were standing In there and we heard a brick hit the side of the
orderly room and I put on my hat and went out the door and I heard the
hoys hollering that there is a fight down there and I said--
Q
A
',:)
A
Q
A
A
A
Who did you heai' hollering down there?
I don't know, it was dark and there was so many hollering.
Did you hear Larkin say that?
No, sir.
Did you hear Jones?
No, sir.
Now, after you heard the hollering about the fight you went out?
Yes, sir.
What barracks were you In when you heard that?
In the orderly room.
what building is that?
670.
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Q You were in Building 67O?
A Yea, sir.
Q While you were in there you heard aomeone holler there was a fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you came out of the "building?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which way did you go?
A I went down here.
Q Now, did you go over to the mess hall, the 578th or did you go
straight to the Italian Area?
A I went down there first, I heard some talking after everything
was over.
hall?
You went in the Italian Area and did not go up toward the mesa
No, sir.
Q When you started through the area after you left Building 67O, who
went with you?
A I don't know, one boy lYom the 650th.
Q Out of the 651st who went with you?
A I don't know the boy by name.
Q When you went from Building 67O toward the Italian Area who went
with you?
A I don't know the name of the boy that went with me.
Q Where did you first pick up your club?
A It was after I came out of the orderly room.
Q After you got up to the 670th area you picked up the club?
A No, air, after I got down in the Italian Area.
Q After you got down in the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q what kind of a club did you get?
A It was socie thing like that.
Q, This club.
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1 A Yes, sir, "but it didn't have no ends, someone had knocked them
2 off.
3
4 (INVESTIGATII<IG OFFICER: Let the record show when the witness got
5 to the Italian Area he picked up a 2-by-2 which was somewhat similar
6 to the one shown him. The one that he saw is a stick k feet long and made
71 up of a piece of lumher known as a 2-137-2. )
8!
91 Q After you picked up your club, where did you go in the Italian
loi Area?
ii! A Well, the first thin^ that happened after I got it, I picked up
12 the club. When I first got there this boy was trying to get a jeep started.
13
14 Q So after you entered the Italian Area the first man you saw was the
15 man in the jeep; is that right?
16 A Well, he is from the 650th, I don't know him.
17
',8 Q V/as that the first man you saw?
19 A Ih© first man I saw in the Italian Area was the man in the Jeep.
20
21 Q Do you know the name of the man whom you saw in the jeep?
22 A No, sir, he Is from the 650th.
23
24 Q Are you sore the first coiored soldier you saw after you entered
25 the Italian /irea was the man in the jeep?
26 A Yes, sir. He came ai'ound this way and he was in the Jeep and I
27 came up between the barracks and the orderly room.
28
29 Q You came up to the Italian Area between 713 and 7^9?
30 A Yes, air.
31
32 Q And you saw the jeep there with a man In it?
33 A Yes, sir.
34
35 Q What was the man doing in the jeep, trying to start the jeep?
36 A He get it started but the motor went dead and he got out.
37
38 a Why did he get out of the Jeep?
3?> A I don't know.
40
•^' Q Did someone ask him tc get out?
'»2 A No, sir.
43
44 :^ Did an^'cne get in the jwep?
45 A We got in.
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Q What did you do?
A Well, the boy, I don't know who it was there were so many and
I had never heen in the company more than about 2^ weeks, I got transferred,
so I Just run this way, I run inside, I run into the corner.
Q You took the Jeep and drove It into the comer of the tent.
Did you see anyone in there?
A Yes, sir.
■ ■ I. ■
Q Did you knock the tent down?
A No, sir.
Q Did you break the side of the tent down?
A Kg, sir, I mean yes, air. Just one post.
Q You broke one post?
A Yes, sir. ■-
Q Did you drive the jeep into the tent so the wheels were on the
tent floor?
A No, sir.
Q How many times did you drive the jeep against the tent?
A Two or three times.
Q Did you teat the tent?
A I don't know, I don't think I looked at it.
Q But when you stopped driving the jeep against the tent you had
succeeded in knocking part of the frame down?
A Yes, air.
Q You had knocked one post cf the frame down and the tent had
fallen In, part cf the tent had fallen in?
A Yes, sir, one corner.
A
A
A
Did you get out of the Jeep then?
Yes, sir.
Where did you go after you got cut of the Jeep?
Inside the orderly room.
Did anyone ask you to get out of the Jeep?
I Just got out.
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Q When you got out did you pick up your clut again?
A You asked me where I got the club. After I come out of the
orderly room I did.
club?
Q At the time you were driving the jeep you had not picked up the
No, sir.
Q When you left the vicinity of the toat after driving the Jeep
into the tent you went in the orderly room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before we go into the orderly room I want to find out who you
saw out in the vicinity here where you were driving the jeep?
A Well, I knowed one corporal, his name is Corporal King.
Q
Q
Q
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Q
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Where did you see Corporal King?
Standing up on the little old porch.
What was King doing when you saw him?
Standing, up.
King had a club?
No, sir, I didn't see it if he did.
Did he have anything in his hand that you noticed?
No, sir.
What was King saying when you first saw him?
Nothing.
Did you hear King admonish the boys who were there to stop fighting?
That was after he had been running all the fellows out of the
orderly room.
Q
A
Q But at the time you first saw King he wasn't trying to stop
the fellows that were getting into the orderly room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before you went up to the door, who did you see out there
besides King that you knew?
A I don't know, I didn't see anyone I knew.
Q On the night of August lifth, 19^U, did you see Boy Daymond in
the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Where did you see Roy in the Italian Area on that date?
A I can't tell you where it was, it was somewhere along after that.
That is when I picked up my stick.
Q That is when you saw Roy?
A Yes, sir.
Q It was somewhere in the vicinity of Door E?
A Roy was around here.
Q I mean this man you named, this Roy Daymond was somewhere in
the vicinity?
A I don't know whether it was on this side, we was running
around here.
Q But you did see Daymond in the vicinity of Building 715 on the
night of August iHh, loJ+U?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Roy have in his hand when you first saw him?
A Bricks or something.
Q Did you see him throwing tricks through the window at individuals
in the tuilding who were there?
A It was around the outside if it wasn't around on this side.
Q On the night of August iHh, I9UU when you first saw Roy Daymond, he wi
standing on the north side of Building 715 near the window that leads from.
Room R with hricks in his hand or getting ready to throw at Italians Jumping
through the first window that goes from Room R to the outside, is that
right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Roy as he was there with the tricks in his hands in
the Italian Area?
A I seen him standing there.
Q Did you see him throwing any of them?
A I don't know, I am sure all of them was throwed.
Q Did you see Roy throwing at that time?
A I don't guess I did.
Q Do you think Roy threw the rocks at the Italians as they Jumped
out of the window and ran?
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A Yes, sir.
Q Who else outside the "building did you see?
A I saw aerman Johnson.
Q Where did you see Herman Johnson on the night of August l4th, 19Mt?
A In the i*ear of Building 7O8.
Q What was Herman doing there?
A He was knocking on the door and the white MP came up and gave
Herman a flashlight and told him to go in the huilding.
Q Did Herman Johnson take the flashlight?
A yes, sir.
Q Did he go in the building?
A He came through the front.
Q You in the meantime had gone around the huilding?
A Yes, sir, when he told him to go in and hring them out the
"barracks was dark and me and Murray — I don't know the soldier —
Q You and Murray went around and came in the "back way?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Herman Johnson came in the front way?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you got in you found the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do?
A I still had my stick.
Q You had one of the sticks and you hit one of them in there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Herman Johnson hit any of them?
A I don't know what he had in his hand, "but he was hitting them with
something.
Q You don't know what he had -in his hand, "but he was hitting them
with SPlething?
A Yes, sir. • ^ .
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Q How many did you see Herman flash the light on under the heds
and tell to get out from under there?
A They was under the heds and under the covers everywhere.
Q And you hit everyone you saw?
A When he had one in the flashlight I did.
Q And Herman hit them too?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were the Italians hollering?
A I don^t know, tliey was hdlering "Mama".
Q Those Italians you hit hollered, "Mama"?
A Yes, sir.
^ Who else came in with Herman from the front door?
A I didn't see anyhody else in the barracks.
Q Murray was in there with you with his club?
A He didn't have a club.
Q What was he hitting them with?
A He was down on them beating them first with a shoe, and his fist,
Q Murray used his fist and a shoe?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he hit them on the head?
A I don't know.
Q And after that you could see Herman hitting them?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was he hitting them with?
A I don't know.
Q He had something you saw?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were the MP's doing at that time?
A Standing up out there.
Q Did they hear you hit them?
A They didn't say nothing. We brought them out and another one came
up in a Jeep.
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Q How long did 70U stay in the room beating up the Italians?
A Seven or eight minutes.
Q How many did you find in there?
A Ahout 15 or 20 I guess.
Q And you hit everyone you found?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you try to kill any of them?
A No, sir, we wasn't trying to kill them, we were trying to hit them
and the only light was a flashlight and you couldn't see so many.
Q You couldn't see which one to hit until Herman turned the
flashlight on them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they run out?
A Yes, sir, some were on the floor.
Q Those on the floor were heat worse than the rest?
A Yes, sir, some got up and ran out.
Q They did run out?
A Yes, sir, they got out if they could run past us.
Q You would fight them?
A They had to get past us, the ones that was lucky.
Q If they got "by one the next man would catch him?
A Yes, sir.
Q With the 15 Italians in there, werenH you afraid they would gang
up and beat you up?
A No, sir, I wasn't scared myself. They was manning and I guess they
wanted to fight.
Q They weren't fighting very hard?
A They were battling a little bit.
Q You were doing most of the pounding on them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you get a good swing at them with your club as they ran by you?
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A I hit about 2 or 5, one was on the hed and I poked him and he
came out.
0 Did you get any other good BockB?
A I hit at one and missed and the stick hit the hed.
Q One was under the hed and you poked him and he came out then
you took a swing at him? ^ , .^ ^^ v j '
A Yes, sir, the next time is when I hit the hed.
Q Did you find one in the comer and give him a pretty good heating?
A I don't remember the one in the comer.
Q There were a lot of Italians lying in hed with the covers over
their head?
A There was some in hed that was hiding.
Q When you would find one lying in hed under the cover© you would
pull them off and what would you do to him? ,, , ^^ ,^
A All the time I would get fixed until they pulled the covers off.
Q Someone would hit him?
A Murry was standing there.
Q When you pulled the covers off then you would hit him?
A Yes, sir, and he would r\in.
Q. Did you fSliow them out when they ran out?
A I didn't follow them when they ran hecause the next man in line
would catch them.
Q Who was hehind Murray?
A All I can give an account of is myself and Murray and Johnson,
that is the only three I know.
Q Is Herman Johnson the hig soldier?
A Yes, sir.
q, A hig fellow?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know when Herman came there? Is that the first you had
seen of Herman?
A Yes, sir.
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Q The MP handed him a flaahlight and told him to go In and hrlng
them out?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he tell what to do to hring then out?
A Yes, sir, he said, "Go in and "bring them out."
Q Herman was already in the area?
A Already out in front where the MP was.
Q Did any of them Jump through the window while you were in there
heating on them?
A I didn't see any go out.
Q 'Xhey were hollering, "Mama Mia" or s^iething like that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you say there were approximately I5 in the place you had ^
to hring out, or heat out, or knock out?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you knock any of them down?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hit a hunch of them on the head?
A I don't remember hitting any on the head.
Q Did you see Murray hit any on the head?
A He was on the floor and he was sitting on him hitting him on the
head with a shoe.
Q On the head?
A I couldn't say. He got out from under Murray and ran.
Q Were any knocked cold and left in there because you didn't want
to "bring them out?
A No, sir.
Q Wien you finished heating up the fellows in 7O8, which way
did you BP out?
A We all came out to the front, that is the last of the fight.
Q When you got out in front, was Johnson out there?
A Henaan Johnson?
b-
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Q Yes.
A H© was standing there and ho gave the MP the flashlight "back
and another MP came up and rcunied all us up.
Q Vera the Italians there?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he say after you came out?
A He told us to all line up in a round ring.
Q Then what did he say?
A He was going to hold us until Bi^mehody came, the OD, I gueae.
<i xhon what did he say?
A Somebody told him — he said, "What are you going to do with ui"?
I don't know who it was, I wasn't paying any attention and he said, "All
you guys go "back to your company."
Q All of those left there?
A All that were left.
Q All that were around the vicinity of 708 that were left?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you went out of Building 708 who else did you see hesidec
JeTobson, Murray and yoursslf?
A. MontgoTisry was ther«.
Q Boy Montgomery was there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was he in the "building when you were heating those Italians?
A I cannot say whether he was there.
Q Who was he talking to?
A He was standing there waiting to hit one.
Q Did he have his club still?
A I don't know.
Q Did you still have your club when you came out of the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then you all lined up?
A Yes, siri
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Q You didn't go "back and pick up your clu"bB?
A No, sir.
Q The man that made you drop your cluta la the aame man that
made you line up?
A Yea, sir.
Q, Is he the same man that pulled his gun?
A Yes, sir, a sergeant.
Q Grey haired?
A He was slim.
Q While you were down there at the orderly room and aa you
approached from Door A, who did you see atanding around there?
A I saw King standing there.
Q What was King doing when you first saw him in front of Door
A on the night of August lUth, I9UU?
A Pushing the door.
A
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A
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A
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A
Trying to push his way into room E?
Yes, sir.
Who else did you see there?
Kotody else.
Did you go up to Door A?
Yes, sir.
Did you go in?
Yes, sir.
Did you push yoiCC way through the isle into Room R?
Yea, sir.
Did you try to get through the group?
Somebody tried It once and didn't.
Was Mathis chopping on the door with a douT^le "bitted ax?
I cannot say that 'because there was a crowd and these men were
knocking on the door.
Q When you were pushing the Italians with a stick, was it a"bout like
this one?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Murray had a stick like that?
A He had his fist.
Q And a shoe?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Johnson have?
A I still don't know what he had. It was dark. He had a flashlight
and was using something.
Q Was the club he was using painted?
A It was a dark GI color.
Q Do you know whether It was a spade or not?
A I didn't see It, I am not for sure.
Q It had a cover on It?
A It was a GI color.
Q When you stood In Door A and after you entered Door A, you saw
someone chopping Door D out with an ax?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you could see the ax he was using?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of an ax was that?
A A double bitted ax like that.
Q Like the ax I show you?
A Yes, sir.
^IHVESTIGATING OFFICER: Let the record show the witness testified
that the ax which was being used to chop down Door D on the night of
August l^vth, 19^1+ was a double bitted ax like the ax which is in evidence
and that he further testified that part of the handle which he could see
while the chopping was belnd done was a dark colored handle.)
Q Now, as you stood In the door, there were severed men in Room
R between Doors A and D?
A Yes, sir. _
Q Who out of that group did you recognize?
A Well, I recognized Mxrrray.
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Q He was there at the time you were In there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Vho else?
A King, he came in before we did.
Q Corporal King was there eihead of you?
A Yea, sir.
Q Who else?
A I don't know. That Is ahout all I know.
Q DJd you see EoTjert Mathls standing "between Door A and D?
A Yes, sir.
Q One of those was Eohert Mathls?
A Yes, sir, I saw him.
Q When you saw Rohert hetween Door A and D on August l^^, 19^^,
irtiat was he doing?
A Standing up waiting to get into Room X.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Was he chopping on the door with an ax?
I didn't see that.
Who was chopping on the door?
I don't know, I can't answer that question.
After you saw Robert Mathls then you observed the door was
subsequently broken down by the man that had the ejc?
A Yea, sir.
Q
A
And the man who you saw with the ax you cannot now identify?
That is right.
Q But you can state definitely that It was not Robert Mathls
who had an ax and was chopping on the door?
A I can do that.
Q You can state definitely it was not Robert Mathls who had the
ax and was chopping the door down on the night of August iHth, 19^^
as you stood watching the door being chopped down?
A Yes, sir, I can.
Q Will you state for me who it was that you saw with the ax and who was
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chopping on the door as 70U otserved it?
A I recognized a man from the 650th, I don't know hie name.
Q Is the man who wae chopping down the door on the night of
August lUth in the guard hou§© ^ov7
A No, sir, I don't know, I can't place his face, his face was
turned toward the door.
Q Did 70U ohserre Eohert Mathis inside Door A and "between Door D
waiting for the door to he chopped down? What did he hare in his hand?
A Nothing, I never saw him with nothing. Maybe he was going
in with his fist I guess.
Q You testify that Robert Mathis didn't hare anything in his
hand when he stood between Doors A and D?
A Yes, sir.
Q
A
Q
Boom X?
A
here.
Q
A
Q
A
Are you sure of that?
Yes, sir.
When the door was chopped down who was the first man who entered
I don't know that, all the guys ^o had "been standing hack along
Who was the first man you saw in Room X after you first entered?
I will say Murray was, I saw Ilby Murray and Robert Mathis.
And who else?
That is all that I know.
Q Then Robert Mathis and Elby Murry preceded you through Door D
after it had bean knocked down by the man with the ax?
A That is right.
Q
there?
A
Q
A
When you and Murray and Mathis got in Room X what did you do In
I was coming on in myself.
Tell me what you saw happening.
There was a table sitting by this window right here, there
was a man vmder the table and he was whipping him in the corner.
Q The colored soldiers you saw in the room at this time were
whipping the Italians gathered in the comer of Room X?
A Yes, sir.
!^^
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Q What were they using to whip the Italians with in the room?
A Sticks and things like that.
Were any of them using knives on anyof them?
I don't rememher seeing any knives, I seen a couple cut, I didn't
see a knife.
Q
A
Q You saw the "boys that had "been whipped had "been cut?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you saw others heaten over the head and hleeding?
A They was "bleeding and ones shirt was torn under the tahle.
Q This "boy under the tahle had his shirt torn on the right side?
A It was on the right side or the left side.
Q Did it look like where a knife had cut it?
A I thought it was a stick, maybe it was a knife, I didn't see a
knife.
Q Did you see the man who tore that fellow's shirt that was under
the tahle?
A No, sir.
Q What happened to the Italian standing on top of the tahle?
A I didn't see one on the top.
Q Did you see the white American soldier standing up and bleeding
and the colored soldier saying not to attack them because they were
Americans?
A I didn't hear him myself, I guess they had gottne him out.
Q What did you heeir the white soldiers in this room say to the
colored soldiers?
A I don't remember seeing nothing but Italians. I heard since
I have been in the stockade that white soldiers were there.
Q Didn't you hear any white soldiers yelling or Italians saying
anything when the colored soldiers "Beat them up?
A I don't remember.
Q You heard screaming and hollering?
A Yes, sir.
Q You saw some soldiers pounding the white soldiers in there?
CONFIDENTIAL
1138
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A I Been them whipping the soldiers, the Italians, thej had
all the soldiers cornered and I couldn't tell them apart?
Q While you were in the room, did you strike any Italians in
Room X?
A No, sir, I didn't get a chance, the rest of them over there
were "busy on this guy.
Q Many of the colored soldiers were clubbing the fellows?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the man under the tahle in the northeast comer of the
room. Room X, was under the table and you couldn't get to him?
A That Is right.
Q You Just had to stand and wait until yovu: turn came?
A To hit one?
Q Yes.
A No, sir, I didn't hit one.
Q You didn't try to hit them in Room X?
A I didn't hare nothing but my hand.
Q Didn't you kick any of them?
A No, sir.
Q Weren't there any laying on the floor where you could kick them?
A The soldiers had them cornered up.
Q Was the man under the table?
A Yes, sir.
Q He couldn't get out?
A He wasn't knocked out, he was under the table on his knees.
Q While you were In that room, did you see the fight going on in
this little room. Room Y?
A I didn't know there was no room back of that.
Q You could hear hollering?
A Yes, sir, there was hollering over there I know back in this
comer, but this door was like this.
Q They were over by door B?
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Q They were hitting them over there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were the Italians hollering?
A All of them was hollering.
Q You saw that fight going on around Door B?
A Yes, sir.
Q How about Door C, were the Italians running hack and forth
from Room X to Y?
^ I cannot say.
Q After you left Room X, where did you go?
A They stctrted pulling them out and somebody started hollering to
stop.
Q Who started hollering to stop?
A I don't know.
Q Before you left Room X did you see any Italians Jump out the
window on the north side of Room X?
A I didn't see none Jump out the window until I came out.
Q Now, you were pushing through Door B into Room Z?
A Yes, sir.
Q As you came in through Door B who did you see in Room X you knew?
A I done alreaxly said Murray was in there.
Q Who else?
A That is all I know.
Q On the night of August lUth, 19^, did you see Marshall Moore
in the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was he doing when you saw him first?
A The first time I saw him, the MP was rounding us up.
Q Did you see him while he was inside Building 7I5?
A No, sir.
Q What did he have in his hand?
A He was standing in the rear of us, the MP had made him put down
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1140
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his stick.
Q
A
ft
A
The MP made him put his stick down?
I guess so.
He was in the ring in front of puilding 708?
Yes, sir.
Q Nov, while we have "been talking off the record you state
you don't want to talk any more?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why?
A Because if the guys that did the hanging aren't found then they
are going to put it on somehody, somehody is going to do time.
Q You are willing to do time for what you did?
A I can't do no "better if they give me time, I can't run off, I
ain't going to try.
Q Why don't you want to tell me, as investigating officer, the other
persons present that night so that we can find out those and turn lose those
persons who are not implicated in this case?
A Well, I done told you .
Q But there were fellows you knew that were down there. Why do
you refust to tell me the names of them?
A I don't know all the guys. If I had "been in the ccaapany long
enough. George Johnson has heen with the company a long while.
Q Can you state definitely that George Johnson was not down there?
A I didn't see him, that is all I know, I didn't see him, I can'ts
say he ain't there.
Q
A
Q
A
a cluh.
After you had come out of Room X, where did you go?
I went down to the "building.
After you came out of Building X — Room X, you went into Room Z?
And I went right out, I didn't want to get hit or slapped with
Q You went straight through "between Door B and E "because you were
afraid of getting hit?
A Yes, sir.
h
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Q
A
The men In that room were swinging clubs at the Italians?
Yes, sir.
Q Who In there did you see that you recognized?
A I didn't see anybody. I lost direction of Murray emd the other
"boys, I didn't see nobody I knowed going out of that room.
Q When you got out here who did you see you recognized?
A Roy Montgomery.
Q On the night of August lUth, 19^U as you got out of Room Z
through Door E you saw Roy Montgomery standing outside that door?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he have in his hand?
Aq Roy had a stick standing up there.
Q He was waiting to hit a fellow that ran out of the door?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see him hit anyone that ran out of Door E?
A I didn't see him.
Q No one come out of Door E while you were there?
A They were bringing guys out of there.
Q Did you see Roy swing on some of them?
A No, sir.
Q After you got outside of Door E, where did yyou go?
A I went outside the barracks, on this side.
Q You came out of Building 715 through Door E on the east side and
you went on the north side?
A I hit a man out here myself.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
long?
You hit a man coming out of E?
I hit somebody myself.
What did you hit the man with that ran out of Door E?
I picked up a stick like that.
When you got outside of Door E you picked up a 2-by-2 about k feet
Yes, sir.
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1142
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Q While you had the stick in your hand you hit an Itedian who ran
out of that door?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you knock him to the ground?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you hit him?
A Across under the arm.
Q Across his rihs?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did the Italian go eufter you hit him?
A He came around and went in here.
Q Did you see him go toward the wooded area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you chase him?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see anyone else chase him?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see anyone hit him after you struck him?
A No, sir.
Q But you saw him run down toward the wooded area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he scream when you hit him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you go then?
A I came around the huilding on this side.
Q You came around the "building from the north side?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you got around the "building, who did you see that you
recognized?
A Daymond.
Q Roy Daymond was standing on the north side of the huilding.
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1143
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Vfhat was he doing?
A Standing there with hrickB in his hand.
Q While you stood on the north side of the "building did you see
some Italians who were escaping frcm the huilding through the windows?
A Yes, sir, the rest of the guys threw at them — you asked me did
Eoy throw-- I am not sure, hut he is bound to "be throwing something thenm
he had rocks, I didn't see him.
Qq Who else threw at the Italians that Jumped out of the window?
A I don't know their names.
Q There were several of them, were there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Several colored soldiers stood on the north side of the huilding
and threw rocks at those who escaped through the window?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see any of the colored soldiers grab any of the Italians
that jumped out of there?
A No, sir.
Q They stood off and threw rocks at them?
A Yes, sir.
Q The rocks they threw were in the shape of bricks?
A I don't know, I could see they were rocks, but I couldn't tell
what kind.
Q You testified Roy Daymond had bricks?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the other fellows had some kind of stones?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they were throwing them at the Italians that Jumped out of
the building and tried to escape?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see any soldiers on that side with clubs?
A No, sir, I don't think any h£id clubs.
Q Did you hit any of the IteQ.ians with rocks?
A I didn't get a chance.
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Q Were you etfraid of getting close and getting hit yourself?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were afraid of getting up close and afraid of getting hit
by the rocks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did the soldiers throving stones at the Italians escaping
on the north side hit very many of the Italians?
A They were throwing and the guys were hollering, I guess they
must have hit some of them.
Q Did you see them knock any down?
A No, sir.
Q You saw some hit?
Aq Yes, sir, they was hollering.
Q You saw some hit with stones but you don't know how many?
A You can't tell, there wasn't any light, it was night.
Q But when one was hit he hollered, did he?
A I didn't hear that.
Q How could you tell it hit him?
A You could tell by him flinching. ,:
Q And you could hear the sound?
A You couldn't hear no sound.
Q These Italians that escaped on the north side after Jumping through
the window and after being thrown at and hit with stones, were they going
toward the woods and jumping over the clift into the woods?
A I don't know.
Q How many colored soldiers did you see chasing them?
A I didn!% see any.
Q You didn't see anyone running down there and chasing them?
A No, sir.
<
Q You didn't see any Italians caught and beat while you were there?
A No, sir, not on the outside.
Q Only those that were inside and hemmed up were being beaten in there?
k
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1145
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A Yes, sir.
Q After you otBerred this fighting on the north side of the huilding
where did you go?
A Over "by another harracks and they said, someone says, "Let's
"burn the "barracks down."
Q That was 709 or 7IO?
A Over here.
Q You went from 715 to 711?
A Yes, sir, hut I didn't go inside, Just outside.
Q When you arrived there some hoy said, "Let's hum the barracks
down." What did they do to hum the harrapks down?
A They didn't hum it down, they was going to and somebody in thie
building was hollering, "Here's some in this room," and they were pushing
beds up against tfie door.
Q When you were at Building 711 getting ready to burn it down
someone hollered in 708, here's a bunch of Italians?
A That is right.
Q What effort was made here at Building 7II to bum it down?
A Didn't ijjake no effort.
Q Did anyone go get gasoline?
A No, sir.
Q Did anyone strike matches and start burning it?
A No, sir.
Q Who said they would bum the building down?
A I don't know his name.
Q Was he near you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You ran in 7O8 then?
A Yes, sir,
Q As you ran from 711 did you see any Italians in the latrine, 712?
A No, sir.
Q Did any of you stop in Building 712?
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A No, sir.
Q Did 70U igo near Building 7IO?
A No, sir, I didn't go near that.
Q As you went from 711 to 7O8 did 70U see any colored soldiers
you knew?
A Herman Johnson.
Q I mean running in "between the two buildings?
A No, sir.
Qq After you got to 708 you saw Herman Johnson and the hunch you
have previously testified to?
A Yes, sir, Herman Johnson, Murray and myself and another one.
me?
Q And your testimony from there is as you previously gave it to
A Yes, sir.
Q After the MP lined you up and told you to go hack to your
harracks, did you go to your heurracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which road did you take after you left the Italian Area to go hack
to your harracks?
A This one in front.
Q You went up the steps and hit Wyoming Avenue and followed it up
to Lawton Road and they went up and cut in hack of 675?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you got to 675^ what did you do then?
A We went to talking ahout it.
Q Who all were talking ahout it at the time you got in your harracks?
A I don't know.
Q You and Murray were?
A Murray came over to the harracks and talked with me.
Q Herman Johnson was there?
A He was in the harracks, his.
Q He didn't come in yours, 675?
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A H» didn't live there.
Q Who "besides you and Mixrray talked ahout the fight 70U had while
you were in Barracks 675?
A That is all I know.
Q No other persons you remetober were in there with Murray talking
about the fight you had with the Italians?
A No, sir.
Q There were others in there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now many in that "barracks talked ahout the fight and admitted they
were in the fight?
A Two or three new guys from New Orleans.
Q Two or three men in addition to you and Murray, is that right?
A Yes, sir, that is right.
Q Do you remem'ber any of their names?
A No, sir.
Q Any of the names I previously called off to you?
A I don't know.
Q Would you remem"ber the names if I called them off to you again?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have anything else you would like to £d.d?
A No, sir.
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Testimony of Cfl. Joe Trice, taken at Seattle,
Washln^on on 28 September \^W "by Lieut. Colonel
Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial number.
A Cdi^or^ Joe Trice, 56914^5855, 651st Port Company, Fort Lawton,
Washington .
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 24th
Article of War?
A No, sir.
(2l+th Article of War read and explained to the witnsss)
Q On the night of August ll+th, V^"^^, were you with your company?
A Yes, sir.
Q Chrer at Fort Lawton?
•^ Yes, sir.
Q And what was the first thing you heard about this?
A After it started up in the night I heard a guy, I guess it was
10:50 or 11 O'clock, I heard him say there was a fight down on the hill.
Q Where were you?
A Up in the harracks.
Q What ip the number of your "barracks?
A I don't know.
Q Will you look at this map and show me?
A I used to he in this one.
Q You were in 675 the night of the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you In there when you first heard about the fight?
A Yes, sir.
% Someona came In and said there was a fight?
A You could hear, I was packing my duffle bag at that time.
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Q Did you go out?
A In front of 672.
Q In front of 672?
A Yes, sir.
Q You left 675 and went to 672?
A In front of my barracks, 675, I met the first sergeant coming
out of the orderly room and I asked him what the trouble was and he
said he called the MP's, anyway, they was in the headquarters "barracks,
so there was 12 or 1^^ standing down there and he told m© to go down and
tell them to go in their barracks.
ft Did you go there then?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you talk to the fellows standing in front of 672?
A Yes, sir.
Q "What did you tell the men?
A What the first sergeant said. Some of them said all right and
some of them said to hell with it.
Q You didn't see any of them go toward the Italian Area while you
were there?
A Ko, sir.
Q
A
Do you know whether any of them went down there later?
No, sir.
Q After you left 672, where did you go?
A I came back in front of my bai'racks and there was a bunch of
fellows talking.
Q Did you talk to them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were the fellows you talked to in front of 675?
A Sergeant Cabral, Register, a couple of corporals, Troup and
Knuckles and Pfc. Vilburn.
Q Did you stand and talk tc them?
A Yes, sir, until the N[P's went down the hill,
Q What conversation lid you noncommissioned officers have while the
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the fight was going on?
A We had a diecuseion atout the fight.
You were wondering what started it?
Yes, sir.
Did you discuss who was in it?
No, sir, not at that time.
Did the first sergeant say anything ahout any of his "boys heing
He told he he didn't know of anyone that went down there and
Q
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there?
A
hs said somehody would get in trouhle ahout it.
Q All the time you talked to the first sergeant, you could hear
the noise?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were the Italians screaming?
A Hollering.
Q You could hear glass teing broken?
A No, sir.
Q Could you hear rocks being thrown against "buildings?
A No, sir.
Q Could you hear windows being knocked out?
A No, sir.
Q ^ut you heard hollering and screaming?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you see in the area when you were at 672?
A No, sir, you could see the mess hall, I don't know whose it was.
Q Building TOO?
A I suppose so.
? You couldn't see the Italian Area at all, is that right?
A You can see it in daytime, but there wasn't any lights until after
the MP's arrived.
Q Now, what did you do after you and the sergeant got through
talking in front of Building 675, you and the noncoramlssioned officers got
through?
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A I went tack in the 'barrackB and I talked to some guys
gambling.
Q Who were the "boys gambling?
A . Lee Wlltum and Mitchell. ^
Q Were they shooting dice or playing poker?
A •• Poker, and "blackjack.
0 How many were in the game?
A Seven or eight.
Q Can you name any of the others?
A There was a sergeant from the 650th, I don't know his nam©.
Q Would you know it if you heard it called?
A I think so.
Qi Was it Palmer?
A Palmer, yes, sir, he is a staff sergeant.
Q Sergeant Palmer was playing with the men?
A Yes, sir.
Q Cpn .rovL name any of the others who were playing?
A Rohett Spikes was there, I don't know whether he was gamhling,
but he was there.
Q This poker game was going on all during the fight or did it start
ai'ter the fight?
A No, sir, they were shooting crape before the fight.
Q Were the same members shooting craps?
A Part of them, sir.
Q Those in front of 672, you cannot say whether they went down to
the Italian Area after you left?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't go down?
A No, sir.
Q Are yo"i sure?
A Positive.
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Q Who is here in the stockade that knew that you didn't go down?
A Sergeant Mitchell and Curry should know.
Q What Curry is that?
A Willie.
Q Did Willie go to the fight?
A He told me he did.
Q He told you he did?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he say^he did when he got there?
A He didn't say. He said he had heen there and I never did ask
hlra what he done.
Q Did he say what he had done there?
A No, sir.
Q After the fight was over, did you remain in Barracks 675? ■
A After everything was quiet?
Q No, immediately after the fight was over?
A After I went hack inside?
Q Yes. ■
A Yes, sir.
Q V/hile you were in there did some of the "boys come back and
start talking about the fight?
A No, sir, they kept pretty quiet.
Q, No one came back and started talking about the fight?
A Didn't too many come back to the barracks afterwards.
Q Some of them did come into Barracks 675?
A T suppose 30.
Q You didn't hear any discussion of the fight in Barracks 675 after
it was over by the boys that came back from the Italian Area?
A No, sir.
Q Havo you heard later any discussion of the fight by members of your
company or the other company?
A Two or three words occasionally.
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Q
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get out.
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Who did you hear discussing it?
Montgomery.
Roy Montgomery?
Yes, sir.
What did he eay ahout the fight?
I heard him say since I have "been in the stockade he helped somehody
Did he say he hit anyone?
No, sir.
You never heard him say he hit someone?
No, sir.
Do you know Mathis?
Rotert?
Yes.
Yes, sir.
Did you ever hear him discuss the fight?
No, sir.
Q He is a member of the 6^'l8t and you never heard him discuss the
fight at all?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever hear anyone else say he discussed it with him?
A No, sir.
q The next morning after the fight, which was the 15 th, your
company was moved, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir, ahout "between eight and none.
a.
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A
Q
Where did you move to?
I don't know what section .'t was.
Was it Section I?
It was "by Number Two Theat^er.
As you moved over there, did you hesir any of the boys discussing
the fight?
A No, sir, things wore pretty quiet, some guys wanted to know why we
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was under guard over there and the first sergeant told them and that is the
first time I knowed anything ahout-- you know-- it was that "bad.
Q When did you learn ahbut the hanglpg?
A Not until-- what day was that?
Q The 15th of August was the day you moved.
A I didn't know it until the l6th, I suppose.
Q Who told you ahout it then?
A I don't know his name, a fellow in the investigation, he was
put in the guard house Thursday, 1 think the l6th or it might have "been
the 17th "because I stai'ted --
i Who informed you of it?
A One of the fellows in the investigation, I don't know his name.
^
One of the vhlte investlgatora".'
k
Yeo, sir.
Q
Do you know his name?
A
No, sir.
Was it Durol]?
A He \a a short fellow.
Q But he said he was InveBtlgatiog to try to find out who committed
the hanging?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he find out anything over there?
A I don't know.
4 Did you hear anyone discuss the hanging yourself?
A No, sir.
Q You haven't heard an^-thlng a"bout it except Lurell's discussion
e.bout it?
A I eaw something in the paper once ahout it.
Q Do you have any idea how that hanging took place?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q While you were up around Barracks 675, did jou see a Jeep come
dowTi this road?
A No, sir, the only jeep I saw as when I was down at the PX a'bout
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9:50, the MP was In it.
Q That wao when they picked up Willie Montgomery?
A No, sir, he was down closing the PX and he came out with another
guy.
Q Did you see the MP's arrive that night?
g! A No, sir, the trucks.
Q What road did they take going down to the area?
A Lawton Road, going down Lawton Riad.
Q Where did you see them?
A You could see them Just "before they got to the corner.
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,71 A Ford trucks, you know small ones.
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20 A I didn't see any.
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22 Q Did you see an ambulance going down later?
23 A Yes, sir.
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25 Q Did you see the ambulance come back out?
26: A Part of them.
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29 of EarrackE. 708?
30 A No, sir, I heard the hollering.
31
32 Q i'ou heard the hollering?
33 A Yea, sir.
34
35 Q Could you see the windows being broken and knocked out?
36, A No, sir.
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33 Q Could you see the end of this building from where you were
39 A I don't know too much about any of those buildings.
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44 Q Did you see the fight around this building here?
45 A No, sir.
,9
Q Did you see anything that nlgiit in front of 672?
A No, sir, it was dark. I could see the mess hall down on the hill.
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Q On the momlng after the fight, weren't some of your clothes
taken away from you?
A No, sir.
Q When did they tak© that clothing away from you?
A They didn't take none on the momlng after the fight, our duffle
"bags were taken and loaded on the trucks.
Q From your duffle "ba^ didn't they get a pair of coveralls with
blood stains on them?
A Yea, sir.
-Hnd It had your initials on the coveralls?
Yes, sir.
How do you figure the "blood got on them?
From my nose.
You had a nose "bleed?
Yes, sir.
When did you have that?
About k days ago.
Do you normally have nose bleeds?
Only when my head is stopped up.
Had you had a cold then?
Yes, sir.
Did you go to the hospital?
I have never been since I have been In the Army.
You refused to go to the infirmary?
Yes, sir.
You admit those clothes of yours did have blood on them?
Yes, sir.
And they were found in your duffle bag?
Yes, sir.
But you say it was from a nose bleed rather than any accident you
Yes, sir.
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were In?
A
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Q Isn't it a fact that you have "been identified as teing In the
It8ullan Area, in the Orderly room on the night of August lli-th, 1941<-?
A Sometody was lying.
Q The testimony which identified you is as follows: "I then went
in the orderly room from the front and I saw a tig crowd of men standing
inside and I recognized Wallace Voodln of the 650th and a corporal and a Buck
Sergeant, BSeirgeant Red of the same company and Joe Trice and Jhomas Battle
of my company. "
A I wasn't down there. Whoever told you that is wrong.
Q Then if someone identified you as they hare and said you were in
the Italian Area orderly room on the night of August iHh, 19^4, they
made a mistake?
A Yes, sir.
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That is an error?
Yes, sir.
You didn't go down there at edl?
No, sir.
You never left your harracks?
I never left the company area, I left the barracks.
Did you go any closer to the fight than Building 675?
No, sir, that is as close as I got.
You never went down and watched it?
No, sir.
You didn't go over here and watch it?
No, sir, I never got further than 672.
You didn't go down and try to stop the fight?
No, sir.
Now, when you had the nose "bleed, where did you get the blood
on your clothing, do you remember?
A I left the barracks and went to the latrine, it should be on the
front.
is.
Q On the front of the trousers and the leg?
A And there should be some on the back pocket where the handkerchief
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Q Did you have a handkerchief?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you get some blood on it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you ever seen it since that time?
A Once.
Q Where?
A At Fort Lawton.
Q Did you turn that handkerchief over to someone?
A No, sir.
Q And you haven't seen it since?
A Since this fellow shoved it to me.
Q Are these your coveralls which I have here?
A Yes, air.
Q Where is the "blood you got on this clothing the day you had
the nose bleed?
A Some going outside, it should be on the front legs down here.
Q You didn't get any on the back?
A Only there should be sane around the back pocket where I have my
handkerchief .
Q Is there any back there around the pocket?
A There is a little.
Q Do you see any lower down than your pocket?
A I wiped my hand.
Q Do you see any, eufter examining them, other than on the pocket,
the rear pocket and on the front?
A No, sir.
Q Aren't those blood stains on the left side here and it is not
near the pocket?
A Yes, sir.
Q How do you account for that blood on the left leg and in the rear?
A I wiped my hands.
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Q Now, you have your coveralls on. Look at the spot on the left
leg of the trousers and see where the "blood is in reference to where you
hand would normally nit the trousers.
A There's some that may have shook around and hit down like that.
Q That spot of "blood lower down on the "back leg almost to the
knee of the left side of the coverall must have "been, as you say, from a
splatter which had fallen from the nose and hit the trousers at that
point.
A I don't understand — I suppose so.
Q You feel that the "blood which came from your nose would have
hit the "back of your trousers below the knee?
A Well, ordinarily no, that wouldn't happen, it seems impo8si"ble,
"but that is the way it was. That is all I can tell you.
Q Turn the trousers over a little and loo, at the rear of them '
down on the left leg almost to the "bottom of them and look at that
"blood spot and tell me whether it looks like a place you wiped your
hands or the "blood hit there without "being touched "by anything else?
A It looks like a drop.
Q Directly from the "bleeding wound and hit the trousers without
"being touched "by any other object, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q How do you explain that?
A Well, Just like I told you at first. Jfy nose was "bleeding and
I was running to the latTlne and that is all I can say.
Q I show you a handkerchief, a white handkerchief which Is "blood
soaked, and ask you if that is your handkerchief?
A I don't think it is mine-- yes, sir, it is mine.
Q
A
Q
number?
A
Q
A
How do you know it is your handkerchief?
The laundry marks.
Those laundry marks on there are T«r5855.
Yes, sir, the last four numbers.
It is marked with your serieil number?
Yes, sir.
Is that your serial
Q Did you mark that handkerchief with your serial number^
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A No, Sir, I never marked the handkerchief.
Q But that is your handkerchief?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you had that handkerchief with you when you had the trousers
and left?
A Yes, sir.
Q
pocket?
A
Q
A
And when you turned the trousers in the handkerchief was in the
Yes, sir.
On the night of August lUth, 19*«-^ were you wearing those trousers?
No, sir.
Q When had "been the last time you had put those trousers on previous
to August l4th?
A On the morning of the l^tth.
Q You wore them during the day of the lUth?
A Part of the day.
Q You had them on in the morning?
A Up until ahout 10 or 10:50.
Q Joe, I hand you a scahbard of a knife.
A That is mine.
Q And I BBk you to examine that and tell me whether that is your
scahhard or not?
A It is.
Q You can testify it is your scahtard?
A My serial number is on it.
Q Where is the knife that "belongs to that scathard?
A The knife that "belongs in there I don't know about that, Curry
gave me this sometime ago.
Q The V^ife that "belongs in this psurticular 8cab"bard you have
Identified as yours, where is that knife?
A I never did have that, Cuny had the knife.
Q Did Curry have the knife that belongs in this scabbard on the
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night of August lUth, 19l|-i«-? '
A I don't think so, he gave it to me tefore that.
Q You had the knife to that scabbard on the night of August lUth?
A No, sir.
Q Where was it?
A It was in the duffle "bag.
Q Where is that knife now?
A The MP's we have here in the first section have it.
Q Can you identify the fcnife you had in this scabbard if you would
see it again?
A I never hsid one.
Q Can you identify the knife you hdd on the night of August li^th
19^4 if you should see it again?
A Yes, sir.
When did Curry give you the scabbard which you how state belongs
About a week before then.
About a week before August 15th?
Yes, sir.
Did Curry tell you where he got the scabbard?
No, sir, I know where he got it.
0
to you?
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Q Is this the knife which I now hold in aay hand and which is
marked RH 51 the knife which you had in your possession on the night of
August lUth, I9UU?
A I don't know the marks, I know it by the scabbard.
Q You know that is the knife?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have it in this scabbard which &• now shown to you
on the night of August li^th, 19^*1?
A Yes, sir.
Q IB the blood which is contained in the handkerchief which you
have identified as your handkerchief, your blood or acmss elsee?
A My blood.
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Q If it is proven to "be TdIoocL of some other individual, what would
70U say to that?
A I don't think it is upossihle to he any other hlood, sir.
Q Why did you have this extra aoabhard which you have identified as
yours in your pocket?
A I was going to use it instead of the one with the tape on it,
hut it was too long for the knife and I never did use it.
Q You figured you would carry an extra ecahhard in the pocket of
your coveralls instead of turning it in and disposing of it.
A I don't think it was in my coveralls, sir,
Q What did you do with the scabhard which you have Identified
and which is marked T-5855?
A I put it in my duffle "bag, sir.
Q On the night of August lUth, 1914-U you had that extra acabbard
in your duffle bag?
A Yes, sir. I put it in that night, in my duffle bag, during the
night when I was packing my bag.
Q You can definitely state you didn't have it in your trousers
pocket that night?
A I remember starting to leave it in there and I said no, I will
take it, I don't think I put it in my pocket.
out?
A
Q
A
day.
Q
A
Q
A
You remember looking at the scabberd and saying you would take it
Yes, sir.
Where did you go the next day?
I don't know where we was going or where we was moving the next
You state definitely you put it in your duffle bag?
No, sir, I wouldn't swear to it, I am almost positive.
You might have left it in your trousers pocket?
I might have put it in my trousers pocket.
Q You don't know whether you put it in your trousers pocket or in
the duffle bag?
A I know it was one or the other.
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Q
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Further testimony of Willie S. Curry, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 28 September IS^k by Lieut.
Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was reminded he was still under oath and of his
rights as a witness under the 24th Article of Wetr,
Do you know Joe Trice?
Yes, sir.
Are you and Joe pretty good friends?
Well, yes, sir, for the length of time we have heen together.
How long have you "been together?
About 2J weeks before that thing happened.
Did you ever give Joe anything?
Yes, sir.
What did you give hl-n?
I gave him a scabhard of a knife.
What kind of a scabbard did you give him?
A black one.
Q Can you identify this scabbard and state whether it is the one
you gave him?
A Yea, sir, there are so many alike I guess I can.
Q When did you give it to him?
A I gave it to him way before this thing happened.
Q How long before?
A I will say about a week I guess.
Q Look at that group of scabbards and knives and see if you can
.sto the scabbard you gave Joe Trice about a week before this incident
which happened ou August lUth, 19^4-^?
A It would be like this one.
^ Was it, m^wer than that or waa it older than that one?
A It waa possibly newer, 1 iiadn't nad it long. It wa3 cut out
of wic and where the knlfs head stuctc back out.
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ii Q Did you give it to him or sell it to him?
z' A Gave it to him.
3
4' Q The scabhard which you gave to Joe Trice was a tlack leather
5 scahtard which when the knife was placed in the ecathard the point stuck
6 out?
7i A That is right.
8j
gj Q The scahhaLrd which I show you here is not the ecatliard which
101 you gavo Joe Trice about a week "before the incident which happened at
nj Fort Lawton?
12' A That is right.
ni
14 Q Could you definitely state tho scabbard I show you is not the
15 one you gave to Joe Trice?
16 A I know that ain't the one.
'7:
18
19 ( IJITiiSTIGATING OFFICER: Let the record show that the scabhard which
20 Coi-poral Trice teetified was given to him "by Villie S. Curry was identified
21 by Willie S. Curry as not being the scabbe.rd which he gave to Corporal
22 Trice a week before August lUth, 19^^.)
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TestlmoTij- of Pvt. Samuel Snow, teiken at Seattle,
Washington on 28 September 19i^■l^ by Lieut. Colonel
Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization and serial number.
A Samuel Snow, ^h2k^919, 650th Port Company, Fort Lawton,
Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2l<-th
Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of August lUth, 19^^ were you at Fort Lawton when
a fight occurred between the colored soldiers and the Italian soldiers?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where were you when you first heard of the fight?
A In the barracks.
Q What is the number of yoto* ba2?rackB?
A I had been In 719^ that is the one.
4 What was the first information you received concerning this fight?
A The Italians hit a bunch of of our boys.
Q Who told you that?
A I was back rolling my pack and someone hollered the Itedians Jumped
on the boys outside.
Q Do you know whether that was Luther Larkin?
A I Just had come from furlough, I had been here about h days,
I Just caae in this company.
Q Do you know Luther very well?
A I don't know but about 10 fellows that came with me since I came.
Q It wasn't one of them that hollered?
A No, sir, I don't suppose it was.
Q You didn't see the man that hollered the Italians Jumped on on© of
your boys?
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A No, sir.
Q vftiat else did he say?
A I didn't pay aioy attention to anything else, I rolled my pack
and pushed it under the "bed and I went out.
Q Did you go out the front door?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you see outside?
A Some fellow over there and a crowd around the fellow and they
was looking down.
Q They were crowded around Willie Montgomery?
A Yes, sir.
Q Willie was lying in front of the huilding?
A I don't know who it was, they say it was Montgomery.
Q He was lying in front of Building 719?
A I suppose so.
Q Over hy the mess hall?
A No, sir, he was up from here.
Q Bid you cross the street then?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you go, around the mess hall over there?
A I don't know, I went down there. There was a fence near "che
mess hall and I went down to the fence and got a scantling, I grafted hold
of one and a boy went with me, I don't know him.
Q Was the "boy that went with you in the guard house now?
A No, sir.
Q Where did he go?
A With the company.
Q Do you know his name?
A No, sir.
Q Woxild you know it if you heard it?
A Eohineon or Hohert.
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Q From the 650th?
A Robert or Rotlnson, I know him.
Q AnjTvay, the man that went with you went with the ccanpany?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you and this other "boy do when you got down there?
A I went up and pulled off a scantling ahout so long.
Q Was It a 2-"by-4?
A I guess so^ trimmed.
Q Sharpened on one end?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you recognize the club If you saw it again?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is the 2-'bj-h which I now show you the club or a club like
the one you got in the riclnity of Building 700 and took to the Italian
Area with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, after you got this club and went in the vicinity of Building 700
there were a lot of other people around there?
A They were around over there pulling up clubs.
Q Who in that first group went over to get clubs?
A Just that fellow.
Q You don't know any others?
A No, sir.
Q Why did you get a club?
A Why did I get a club?
Q To fight with?
A To fight with.
Q You were going down and kill those Italians, were you?
A It was Just a little fracas, I suppose we were, someone said ,
we were going down and fight those bastards and a lot of them started
pulling them up, I guess it was a victory garden around the mess hall
to pVy to keep the fellows from stepping in it.
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1168
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Q Why didn't you go down and fist fight the Italians?
A I didn't know what the Italians had.
Q In other words, you were going down there and kill them if
necessary?
A There wasn't any intention of killing them, they bothered the
"boy.
Q
A
boy.
How do you know they bothered the boy?
That is what he hollered, he said the Itedians Jumped on the
Q Because he said the Italians jumped on the boy, you were among
the first ones to go down and get a club euad get ready to go work on them?
A We clLII pooled together going down there.
Q Wasn't there soaeone in front or around Building 700 getting
sticks and making a little speech?
A No, sir, there wasn't anJ^^i^©*
Q Wasn't there someone telling you to come on, let's go get them?
A No, sir, when that whistle blowed —
Q Did a whistle blow?
A Ye e, sir, I had got my club and was running down there.
Q Then after you got your club and started toward the Italian
Area someone blew a whistle?
A Yes, sir.
Do you know who that was?
No, sir, I was going on down.
You were among the first to go to the area?
About 15 of us.
Who were some of the others that went with you?
I don't know, it was dark.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Were you toward the back or tbwardithe front of the first group
that went down there?
A I was in front, I run down and a fellow was cutting off the lights,
I don't know which way I went.
Q As you ran down the road you came to Wyoming Avenue--
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1169
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A I don't know anything about the roads.
Q Which way did you go after you got your club?
A I went down across the field.
Q When you got your cluh you went between TOO and 10% in the
direction of the Italian Area?
A It seems like to me this is 719 right here, I guess there was
an open field in here, right here, and I ran down here.
Q Then you didn't go "between 7OO and 7OI, you ran parallel to
Building 700 on the south side of it, in between Building 7OO and ^■
Lawton Boad, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you run behind Building 7OO?
A Yes, sir, I was right here, I was hit, I cut across this way and
the fellow came outside.
Q When you came to the rear of Building 7OO someone cut out the
lights in the mess hall?
A No, sir, I was in here I guess and this light went off and when
I went up I sfeftrted to come this way and cut him off and I came on this
side and I was struck.
Q Whoever cut off the light you were trying to intercept?
A That is what I don't know, I thought he was going to come out.
Q Who was in the building that you were going to get?
A An Italian I suppose.
Q How do you know?
A I saw him moving, going down here and then the light went off.
Q Are you sure it was an Italian in that building?
A That is what I taken it to be.
Q That building belongs to the 578th Port Company and there were
colored soldiers in Building 7OO.
A This wasn't the building.
Q
A
You ran beyond the Y and came to one of these buildings?
I was in the Italian Area.
Q You ran beyond Building 7OO into the Italian Area?
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A Yes, sir. : ,
Q When you got to the Italian Area, did you atop at the first
tuildlng you came to inside the Italian Area?
A I ran down Lawton Eoad until I vas close to Building 708
and I sav the light go off inside that huilding and I saw an Italian
starting to run to the huilding hefore the light went off and
I saw the fellow move around and go in the "building and when the light
went off I was going to try to spot him and catch him and I ran around
the comer of the huilding, hut I was hit "before, i was hit from the
hack hy a fellow hehind me and this fellow came up behind 9^ ahout
a few minutes after I was struck.
Q A few seconds after you were struck?
A Yes, sii', and he came up hehind me and I was on my knees trying
to got up and at that time he picked me up and carried me to my heirracks
and someone said "Snow" and I raised up in hed and I seen this fellow
"by the name of West, he said, "That is Snow", then the fellows came and ,
crowded around and he said to get hack and tljey led me outside to get some
air and I was hleeding pretty terrible and they called an ambulance.
A
And they took you to the hospital?
Yes, sir.
Q Going back to Lawton ?oad and the time you were coming around
the end of the building, when you first came up to the building you ran
up to the door to intercept tha fellow trying to get out?
A I was going to, I never did get around to the door.
Q You were waiting to intercept the f ellove that came out of that
building, should they com© out?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were going to ra.p the hell out of the fellows that came
out of that building?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you had a 2-by-U to do it with?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were ready to work on them?
A Yes, sir.
Q And no one came out before they got you?
A No, sir, didn't no one get out.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q You intended waiting for someone to coiae out of there?
A Yes, 8ir.
Q What were you going to hit him with?
A With that club.
Q Where were you going to hit him?
A I didn't pick no special place.
Q Were you going to try to hit them on the heeid?
A That depended, he was fighting and I was fighting and I couldn't
tell where I was hitting.
Q You were going to try to hit him on the head?
A I wasn't going to pick no special place.
Q Wouldn't it hurt worse if you hit them on the head?
A Sometines it do and aometimes it don't, it depends on where you
might "be hit.
Q You didn't get to hit a soul?
A No, sir.
Q Now, who picked you up?
A This fellow, we started to go hack up and pick up the cluhs with.
Q You and he had been together aU the way along?
A Yes, sir.
Q You two were the first two to go in the area?
A I wasn't the first, when I got there they carried me "back up and
called an ambulance and they were Just going down there.
Q When they carried you back through the crowd near the mess hall.
Building 700^ the big crowd was getting ready then?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they say anything to you?
A Yes, sir, a bunch cf them came and crowded around me,
Q Did they say anything?
A Oh, they asked what thay did.
Q Did you make any reply?
A Yea, sir.
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Q
What did you tell themV
I said, "They done hit me."
Q What did the hoys say who were there and ohserved you being
carried hack?
A They were Just around me and they asked me who hit me and
I told them the Italians hit me.
Q What did they say?
A They was cussing and going on.
Q What else particularly did they say.
A Just were cussing, I don't want to use some of the language.
Q Use the language they used, what did they say?
A Well, sir, I would rather not say,
Q Go on, we are all men, we know cussing, r- what did they say?
A Going to heat the hell out of those mother fuckers, and like
that, cussing and going on.
Q Did the fellows seem more excited and did it make them want to
fight a little more?
A Sure, I felt like it would when they saw Montgomery and seen
I got into it.
Q You thought that Inasmuch as you were a casualty, it would put
a little more feellnx^ iti than?
A Yes, sir.
Q
them?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
And you undoubtedly made the remark to go beat the hell out of
I didn't make no remark, I told them they hit me.
Didn't you tell them to go back and beat the hell out of them?
Ho, sir.
You wanted them to, didn't you?
After I got to the hospital I tried to get out to go back.
Do you think you could have mad© it?
No, sir, I was bleeding too bad, my right ear was slpit open.
Do you know who hit you?
The Italians must have hit me.
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Did you see the person tliat Mt you?
No, sir.
Then it could have teen a colored soldier that hit you, couldn't
I didn't see any others down there.
Did you see the man come out of the door and hit you?
He must have been waiting hy the harracks, squatting down when
I came around the conier.
Q He was waiting for you?
A I'hat is the way he did it.
Q He kind of ambushed you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you walked right into it?
A 1 was running.
Q Didn't you know that you ought to have someone in front of you
to r\xa interference for yourself?
A I was running but he caught me anyway.
Q You wanted to get there first?
A I wasn't particular to get there first.
Q You wanted to get the Italian?
A Sure, I was going to fight.
Q You were going in the barracks if necessary?
A If they didn't come out I was going in.
Q What were you going to do?
A Fight them.
Q As you wei'e running along, did you have in mind what you were going
to do to those fellows?
A I had the intention to go and fight.
road?
Q Didn't you think of what you were going to do £is you ran down the
A Did I have my ijind on going down there?
Q Yes.
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A
I was going to figlit the Italians.
How atout the club, did you get the "biggest one you could find?
I pulled up a club out of the ground.
Q How long did it take you to get It out of the ground?
A It was a little fence with wire nailed to It, about so long, after
I got it out I got my feet on it.
Q
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You say there was some wire on the hoards?
Strans of wire.
Why didn't you got a smaller board, a l-by-4?
I didn't run into nothing like that.
You would rathar have a 2-by-t?
I wouldn't rather, I should have stayed and rolled my pack.
You didn't like the result of that fight?
I didn't like the result becaaee I got hit.
You went to the hospital that night?
Yes, sir.
Q W]ien did j-'ou come back, the next morning?
A The next morning I came back and the Lieutenant came up and told
me to get ready that I was sick and the sergeant came along and helps me
pack, I wasn't able, and they sent me back to the hospital.
Q How long did you stay in the hospiteil?
A Ahout three weeks.
Q Then after you came back, where did you go?
A I went down to the compound, this compound.
Q In the Fort Lavrbon area?
A Yes, sir.
Q xuad you have heen In the compound up there ever since? ;
A No, sir, we are over here at the guard house.
Q And while you were in the compound did you discus 6 your part in
the fight with any of the rest of xhe boys?
A Ko, air, I haven't said anything ahout it.
Q Didn't they want to talk about it?
A They asked me how I got hit.
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q. Q They asked you how you got hit?
A Yes, sir, we laugh about J.t.
Q Did they tell you how much fun they had had?
A No, sir.
Q No one ever told you they had revenge for the knock you got?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have anything elae you would like to add to your
testimony?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1176
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Testimony of Pvt. James Chandler, taken at
Seattle, Wachlngtcn on 29 September I9UU "by
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
Tlie witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial number.
A Private James Chandler, 5T7511U2, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2li-th
Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of August li)-th, 19^^^ where were you wne you heard
about this fight.
A When I first heard about it I Just came from the bus stop with my
wife and mother.
Q
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Q
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Q
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You had taken her up to the bus stop?
Yes, sir.
PxxdL you came back to the area in which you lived?
Yes, sir.
What building do you live in?
I think it was 719.
Is that the building across from Building 7OOV the mess hall?
Yes, sir, 719.
About what time did you arrive back at 719-
I don't know exactly what time it was.
What were they doing around that building when you got back there?
Quite a few of the gang was gone, they was fighting down there.
Could you hear the fight going on when you first arrived?
Just heard a noise.
Windows being broken out, you covild hear that?
Ko, sir.
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Ij 0 You could heeir hollering and Glutting going on?
2' A I heard hollering. '
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Q Now, after you arrived tack there and heard this fighting going
on down there, did you go over toward Building TOO, this mess hall?
I went- - I didn't go too near, I went "by the mess hall.
61 A
gj Q What did you do while you were around the mess hall?
9, A Nothing.
lOj
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Q Weren't there a hunch of fellows gathered on the southside of
iz! the mess hall?
lai A I don't know, I didn't see anyone, I didn't even stop at the
14 mess hsdl.
15
le: Q Which side of the mess hall did you pass as you went toward the
18 A I went on the left-hand side, I was on the left side toward
19 Lawton Road.
20
2, Q Then you passed on the left side of the mess hall and went down
22 Lawton Road?
23 A Yes, sir.
25 Q When you arrived at the intersection of Wyoming Avenue and Lawton
26 Road, did you stop there?
27 A No, sir.
29 Q Did you go on down Lawton Road and cut behind Building 708 and
30 go down to the area by that route?
31 ' A I went down to the "building.
32
33 Q To the orderly room?
34 A Yes, air.
35
36 0 Now, as you moved down the road from Building TOO toward the Italian
37 Area and toward the orderly room, did you see any individuals whom you
38 knew?
39 A No, sir.
40
41 Q Was there anyone walking up and down that road as you went down?
42 A No, sir, I didn;t see a.nyone I loiew.
43
44 q All the fighting was going on while you were going down there?
45 A Yes, sir.
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Q When you arrived close to Building 708 did you see any fighting
around that huilding?
A No, sir, there vas no fighting going on. __^,,
Q When you got around Building 709 on the south side, did you see
any fighting?
A I am getting mixed up on the "buildings, I don't know the numbers.
\ That is the second one.
A I didn't pay any attention to no "building "but the orderly room.
Q You went directly from your "barracks to the orderly room, which
l8 Building 715?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, when you arrived in the vicinity of the orderly room, what
was the first thing you saw?
A The first thing I saw-- what do you mean?
Q What was the first thing you saw there? Bid you see fighting,
men hitting one another with clubs?
A When I got there there was some-- I don't know who they were
because it was dark, it was inside the first place in the orderly room
and they was doing talking and keeping up a loud noise, that is all.
Q Now, I show you a floor plan of the orderly room which is Building
715 and I want to point out to you that Door A is the front door, the
door that goes into the end of the building, into the little room and
Door E is the side door that goes into the small room and there was a bed
I think on this side of the door, the left side and one on the right side
of the door. Door E is the door at hat leads Into the large orderly room
where the American personnel stayed and where most of the fighting went
on. Boom Y is the room that was the office of the American Captain on duty
with the Italian Company and where the testimony shows a large nimber
of Italians were lying on the floor and under the desk in that room and
I will ask you from what direction did you first approach Building 713?
A Well, this place that I noticed was the orderly room where there
was an American boy in there.
Q Ihat is this big room?
A It must have been.
Q Where were you standing when you saw the American soldier in the
big room, Room X?
A At the door.
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Q Then you were standing "by Door B when you saw all these American
soldiers there and some Italians in Room X; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you undouhtedly came up to the huilding from the direction
of Door E?
A Yes, sir. ''
Q As you approached the "building coming toward Door E, you must
have seen a number of colored soldiers standing around the door on the
outside of this huilding near the window?
A Yes, sir.
Q Of that group you saw a good many persons whose names you know?
A Not many "because-- I cann't tell you who it was hecause I
wasn't paying any attention "because it was dark, no lights. I didn't
see anything, I seen Willie Basden.
Q Where did you first see Willie Basden on the night of August iHh,
ISkk in the Italian Area?
A By the first door.
Q Standing "by Door E?
A Yes, sir.
Q Aad Willie had a club?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was he doing with the club?
A Nothing.
Q Did you see Willie hit any Italians as they ran out that door?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see any Italians?
A They wasn't coming out the door.
Q, They were inside the building then?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of a club did he have, was it a long white club?
A I don't know, I don't think it was, it was a club about like that.
Q You are sure he had one?
A Yes, sir.
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Q You are not sure what kind he bad?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see any others?
A I seen Johnnie Ceaser.
Q Where did you first see Johnnie Ceaser?
A On the left-hand side.
Q On the left-hand side of Door E as you approached that door on
the night of August iHh, 19^1^?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of a club did Johnnie have?
A I didn't see any.
Q Are you sure?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he have a knife in his hand?
A No, sir.
Q After you saw Johnnie, who was the next man you saw?
A I saw Booker Thornton.
Q Where did you first see Booker?
A Outside the orderly room as I was approaching.
Q On the right side of the door. Door E?
A Right.
Q What kind of a cluh did Booker Thornton have in his hand?
A I don't remember seeing any club, he wasn't in the light.
Q Was Booker Thornton looking through the window when you first
observed him?
A No, sir.
Q Either Booker or Johnnie Ceaser, did you see either of those
men later that night?
A I saw Johnnie Ceaser.
Q Where did you see Johnnie the next time?
A After we left there, after I went inside the orderly room,
inside this place.
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Q Eoom Z?
A The next door, I got through the next door, the American hoy, one
of them was hurt and looked like he was "bleeding and the other one said,
I understood, "We are American hoys in here."
Q That was some soldier that said he was an American?
A An American hoy.
Q You were standing in Room X when he said that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who did he direct those remarks to?
A To me.
Q What did you do?
A Willie Basden had run to the door.
Q To Door B?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why had he run to Door B.
A He didn't run, he just came into it, but I was ahead of him.
Q You were in front of Willie as you approached Door B?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you went inside the room?
A NO, sir, I stood at the door and this hoy said-- this American
hoy said he was an American, so when I seen that Willie Basden was trying
to get in the room with the cluh I told him they were American hoys
in here and don't hot her them.
Q You did stop Willie Basden from going into the room with the
cluh and striking the fellows in there?
A That is right.
Q tod you did that hy standing in Door B?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were the others you recognized?
A I didn't recognize any more.
Q When you came up to the area of the orderly room, you saw a
Jeep, didn't you?
A Well, who I saw in the jeep at that time was Richard Bar her.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q What was Richard Barter doing with the d«<*P'
A He was in the Jeep driving.
Q Against the tent?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many times did Richard run into the tent?
A I only seen him run into the tent and hack up and start again,
I didn't pay any attention to that.
Q Did you see Richard get out of the jeep?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see anyone else get in the jeep?
A No, sir, I never did see the jeep any more, I never did look
toward the Jeep.
Q
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I9IA?
Q
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A
Did you know on the night of August lUth, 19^1^, WillieCurry?
No, sir.
Have you since learned who Willie Curry is?
Yes, sir.
Did you see Willie Curry in the area on the night of August lUth
No, sir.
If you did ohserve him .you wouldn't recognize him that night?
No, sir, I haven't recognized seeing him out there.
Did you see John Lee Hamilton?
Yes, sir.
Where did you see him?
I can't tell, I remember seeing him some place down there.
Did Hamilton have a club when you saw him?
I don't remember.
Do you remember what he had?
No, sir.
Q But you definitely saw him in the Italian Area on the night of
Augvist l»^th, I9I+U in the vicinity of Building 715?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Did you see Suttllff?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he have?
A I didn't recognize anything he had.
Q Did he have a knife?
A I don't know.
Q He may have?
A I don't know.
Q He could have and you didn't see It; Is that right?
A That Is right.
Q On the night of August l^i-th, 19^^^ did you see Walter Jackson?
A He was In the Italian Area, that is the best I can tell.
Q In the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he have in his hand when you saw him?
A I don't remember anything. I remember seeing some "boys faces in
the light, I recognized their face, but I can't tell where or exactly what
they had.
Q What weapon did you have with you when you entered the room?
You say you stood in Door B?
A A dirk.
Q Did you have it in your hand when you went in the hullding?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you «.ntered Door B and stopped Basden from coming through
that door toward Room X, did you have to threaten Basden with the knife to
hold him "back?
A Yes, sir.
Q When he saw you had a knife he stopped, did he?
A Yes, sir.
Q He didn't open up with his club against you to make you get out
of the door?
A No, sir, he said, "Let me get in", and I told him I understood
they was Americans.
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A
Did he have on glasses?
I don't remember.
Q Here are several knives. Will you point out tthe knife you
had with you on the night of August iHh, 19^ as you entered Room X
and carried that knife openly in your hand.
A This is the knife.
(rNVESTIGAlING OFFICER: Let the record show that the witness
identified dirk number 2250 with the marks CATTARAUGUS and with a 6 inch
tlade aa heing the knife which he carried intoRoom X on the night of
August lli-th, \SW during the riot "between the Italians and the colored
soldiers . )
Q Now, while you were inside Room Z, who in that room did you
see "besides Basden?
A I didn!t see no one that I knowed because I was ahout the first
one there, I don't know how it happened, hit Ihappened to be the
first one in the room after they got the door off.
Q The door had to be knocked open?
A Yes, air. I didn't have anything in ray hand hut a dirk.
Q Who knocked the door down?
A I don't know.
Q What was used to knock the door down?
A I cannot tell you that.
Q You were the first one through the door when it was battered down?
A There was somebody that smashed the door open, I think he pulled
it open, hut he is a boy with the compsuay.
Q What was his name?
A James Coverson.
Q
James Coverson was the man who opened Door S on the night of
August ll^th, V)\\ and you were the first one to enter after the door
was opened?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, did Coverson after opening the door come in the building?
A I don't know, but he must have come behind me, I don't know.
Q Now, when you entered Room Z, what was the first thing you observed
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in that room?
A Not anything.
Q Did you see a hed there on the left-hand aide?
A I didn't see a "bed.
Q Did you see any Italians in that room?
A No, sir, there wasn't anyone in that room.
Q When you got to Door B, was it open?
A Open.
Q After you had gotten through Door E to Door B it was open and
Jk)u Stopped in the door?
A Yes, sir.
Q Still holding the knife in your hand?
A Yes, sir.
I And you talked to the American soldiers who you have previously
referred to that came toward you?
A No, sir, he Just stood up and he said, "We are American soldiers,
don't let them hother us," and they was fighting me in the door and I
had my knif©. and I told Basden to get hack.
Q You hit no one with your knife?
A No, sir.
Q You Just waved it in the air?
A Yes, sir, across the face of the door.
Q And you kept no one from going in?
A I guess I got too much chicken to cut anybody.
Q After you stood there waving your knife and keeping the soldiers
from entering, you saw Basden there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And behind Basden who came?
A I don't Imow, sir.
Q As you stood in Door B, whom did you observe besides the man doing
the talking?
A There wer men back on this some from our boys.
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Q Did some of the colored toys come through?
A No, sir, I don't Icnow anything atout that part, I didn t
see that at all.
Q Now, were all the men in there American soldiers and Italian
soldiers? ^ ...
A The men in there I saw, they said they were American soldiers
and I wasn't interested in anything else, you Icnow, only about the
American hoys "because I am an American soldier like him.
Q You were interested in the Italians, you were doing your hest to
fight them and kill them.
A They was the ones they was after.
Q You were going to get all the Italians out of that room that was
in the huilding. ^ ^ ^^ ^ ;. +v,-t =
A I don't know what they did, after I went to the door and this
tall slim hoy said they was American hoys, I wasn't interested in
nothing, I thought the whole line up was American hoys and I was ready to
throw them hack.
0 Didn't you see the white soldiers with Italian .armhands on.
A I didn't pay any attention to that, I could only ohserye ahout
two boys and one was bleeding and the one wasn't hurt and I think Johnnie
Ceaser, I think he is the one that went over and got the boy that was hurt
and he got him and taken him out.
Q. Did you see Ceaser go in the room?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he have in his hand?
A Nothing, he Just passed and walked over and got this boy and taken
him out, the one that was wounded, I think he is a sergeant.
Q Did Johnnie lay his club down before he went in?
A I didn't see him with a club.
Q ^^en he went in the room and got the wounded man and took him
out, he didn't have a club in his hand?
A No, air.
Q Who »lse besides the tall American soldier and the wounded soldier
did joa ^s®-^^^^ several back of this, in this part of the room.
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Q Were any of them "bleeding?
A Ho, sir, there wasn't hut one I seen hleeding.
P Were these windows knocked out tat that time?
A I don't know.
Q Could you see out through the window?
A I wasn't paying any attention.
Q Here in the room, did you see a "bunch of Italians in the west end?
A These are the only ones I seen.
Q You didn't see any soldiers over in the west end of Room X?
A That was the way the one hoy that was cut was going, the one
hoy was standing there and the one that was cut was here ahout the center
of the wall.
Q Back in the west corner of this building?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was the man cut that you saw?
A I don't know, the blood made me sick at my stomach and I left.
Q Was it on the shoulder?
A Here .
Q On the right chest?
A On the right side.
Q Did you see anyone hit over the head in that building?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see a bunch of Italians go from X to Y?
A No, sir.
Q As you stood there Johnnie Ceaser passed you and went into Room Z?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do with the knife that you didn't keep him from
going in?
A After that he said he was an American soldier.
A
Who said that?
That boy.
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Q You turned around?
A Yea, sir, after keeping Basden out of the door. I don't know
whether Bpsden stepped "back, there was a lot of noise around the place
and after I had seen the blood I was through, I turned and walked hack.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
down?
You went in Door B and stepped into Room Z?
Yes, sir.
While standing in this room, wasn't this door heing chopped on?
I don't know.
You mean you stood there and didn't hear that door heing chopped
I wasn't there that long.
Q Now, as you stood in Door B and getting ready to go in this room,
you heard noise all airound the huilding?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you hear a noise toward Door D?
A Yes, sir.
Q Hadn't you heard the heating on that door?
A Yes, sir.
Q The door was closed then?
A I guess so.
Q Did you see anyone enter D as you entered B?
A No, sir.
Q Or come out?
A I don't know.
Q Could you hear a noise In there?
A I don't know, I heard a noise.
Q You could hear hollering in Room R?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you turned around to go intoRoom Z, now many colored sold'ers
gathered in that room?
A Well, I don't know exactly how many.
Q Were there twenty?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q
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Door B?
A
Q.
A
Tnere wasn't that many.
Would you say ten?
I don't know, sir. I imagine it was aTsout five or six.
Five or six colored soldiers entei-ed room Z while you stood at
Yes, sir.
Did you tell those fellows those were American "boys?
I told the fellows those were American "boys, don't bother then,
to go some other place.
Q To leave that room where the Americans were and go where the Italians
were, you told them to get out of that room where the Americans were and go
somewhere and seek the Italians?
A I said to leaV» here where these American hoys were, to leave
the hoys alone and go somaeplace and get the Italians, that these were
American hoys.
Q What did they say to that?
A One of the "boys hollered, "Very good," hut they wouldn't unless
I had authority over them.
Q, Did you have any authority over then?
A No, sir.
Q They didn't leave?
A No, sir, so I left.
Q You left the room?
A Yes, sir,
Q Before you left the room, who "besides Easden did you see in the
7
A Nohody .
Q You mean in that whole room you didn't see anyhody?
A No one I could recognize, I don't want to tel3 a story.
Q You have ].ater seen them and associated the face with the name?
A No, sir.
Q Are you sure?
A I am sure of It.
room?
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Q You didn't see anyone in Boom Z other than Basden and several
men that went through there?
A No, sir, hecause someone said help that "boy out.
Q Do you know who that was?
A No, sir.
Q Then you came through Door E?
A Yes, sir.
^ Q As you came out was there a crowd gathered around the door? ""
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were they?
A When I came hack I saw the MP's out there and Johnnie Pinckney.
0. The colored MP's?
A When I came hack down to the outside the MP was standing out there,
he came up with Johnnie Pinckney I think, I don't Icnow how many MP's there
were and I went tack to my bari'acks.
Q You still had your knife?
^ Yea, sir.
Q You took it back with you?
A Yes, sir, and gave it to the Captain.
Q Did anyone else have a knife except you?
A No one else had a knife except me.
Q When did you see your kni.fe again?
A I never seen it until I came and gave it to the Captain.
Q When you came outside the door you saw Pinckney and you saw other
colored soldiers who you recognized?
A I didn't see anyone, the MP was standing right in front of the
orderly room.
Q
A
Was he trying to come in the "building?
No, sir.
Q Was Pinckney trying to come in?
A No, sir, Pinckney was telling the hoys to leave, the MP's is here
and for the hoys to go hack to their companies.
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Q And you started "back?
A Yes, sir.
Q Vho left with you?
I I went "by my lone self.
Q You saw some other toys?
A I seen Cover son and Booker Thornton, they went tack.
Q That is all you remember?
A Yes, sir, we went tack, and I think I told you Booker Thornton
was going tack.
Q Did Booker telD you all he had teen doing?
A No, sir.
Q Did Booker have a knife or a clut?
A He didn't have anything at that time.
Q He had thrown down his clut?
A I guess so, he had if he had one.
5, When you went outside the tuilding, did you come around the
tuilding to this door?
A No, sir.
Q Which way did you go when you left Door E?
A I went angling tack this way.
Q Between Building TO9 and the latrine. Did you go in tetween the
two tents in front of the tuilding?
A I don't know.
Q Do you rememter the two tents?
A No, sir.
Q Do you rememter this tig room in tack of the first one, next to the
orderly room?
A I don't rememter that tarracks.
Q You don't rememter which way you left?
A Only I think when I left I went straight up the hill to the read.
Q To the road?
.H Yes, sir, tut I didn't go down the road, I went acrces the road, right
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"back across. I went "back the same way I canie.
Q You went "back the short way, parallel to Building TOO and "back into
Building 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you got hack did you go in your harracks?
A When I got hack to the harracks, several MP's and the first sergeant
was there and he was talking to the hoys and made the hoys go inside.
Q Did you see the first sergeant talking to the MP's?
A He wasn't talking to the MP's, he was talking to the hoys at
that time.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
What were the MP's doing?
Sitting there.
Did you talk to them?
No, sir.
Did you hear them talking to anyone?
No, sir, the first sergeant is the only one, I heard say anything
and I went upstairs and pulled off my clothes and went to hed.
Before you got in hed was there a lot of hoys talking ahout the
The rest of the hoys was down there. Booker Thornton was there.
Q
fight?
A
Q He came in with you?
A Yes, sir.'
Q Who else came in after you and Booker Thornton?
A I don't know,
0 Weren't there a few of the hoys discussing the fight?
A No, sir. Directly after this lieutenant Sistruck, the Officer of
the Day, he came and everything was quiet.
Q What did he say?
A I don't know, he came up, I heara something, Iheerd his voice, hut
I was very sleepy.
Q Was the light out then?
A I think he turned the light out.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q Everybody went to sleep?
A Yes, sir, I guess so.
Q And the next day you moved in thl& Area No. 1?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you got up there did you discuss the fight with a huach
of the "boys?
A No, sir, no one discussed it with me.
Q Were they afraid?
A Yes, sir.
Q Of what?
A Scared, afraid someone might talk I guess.
Q Everybody knew who was in the fight.
A I didn't hear them discuss it.
Q You didn't hear anyone discuss the fight at all?
A No, sir.
Q And you didn't use your knife on anyone?
A No, sir.
Q All of these persons whom you have named are the cnly persons you
recognized on the night of August iHh, 19'«-1'- in the Italian Area while the
fight was going on?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you arrived in the area you state that one window leading
into Room Z had been broken?
A
Q
A
Q
A
A
Yes, sir.
How about the window leading into Room Y?
I don't know.
Did you observe the window in Room R broken?
No, sir
You cannot say whether it was broken out at that time?
No, sir.
C Did you see anyone Jumping out of the window when the Italians
were trying to escape?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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A No, sir.
Q While you were in Room X you didn't see any colored soldiers
in that room other than yourself?
A I was in further than the door.
Q But you did see Johnny Ceaser go through there and get the
American soldier?
A Yes, sir, he came by m© just as I was reaching the place.
Q When he got ahold of the American soldier, which door did he
take him out?
A Out here.
Q Door B and E?
A Yes, sir.
Q He passed you?
A No, sir, I heat him out, I came out before he did. That is
when I left.
Q When you got outside the building the MP's were there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And how long after the MP's arrived was it until the fight was
over in the area?
A I don't know, sir, because I went back to the barracks, I went
straight upstairs.
Q Did you see any colored soldiers who had a rope and were
can-ying off an Italian with them?
A No, sir.
Q
A
0
A
Q
had it.
Did you ever use that knife of yours to hit anyone?
No, sir, I never have.
On the night of August lli-th, 19^^ did you hit anyone?
No, sir.
Are you sure?
Yes, sir, I am sure. That knife has never been used since I
Q Did you know a test was run on that knife after it was turned
over to the Lieutenant?
A It m8.y have been.
CONFIDENTIAL
■':•!
(CHANDLEE)
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Q Do you know what the test showed?
A What?
Q It showed human "blood, it cut a human heing.
A That knife hasn't cut no one.
Q How do you account for the fact it had blood on it?
A That knife didn't have any hlood.
Q The test definitely showed human hlood.
A No, sir, not that knife.
Q I want you to look here. Benzidine Test shows presence of 'blood.
A That knife was not used.
Q I want to knowwhy you took the knife out of the sheath when you
went into the area if you didn't intend to use It?
A I didn't use it.
Q Why did you take the knife out of the sheath if you didn't intend
to use it?
A I taken it out for protection.
Q Why had made an assault upon you?
A No one.
Q You were afraid someone would make an assault?
A Well, I didn't know.
Q When you left Building 719 and went down in the area you took
the knife with you?
A Yes, sir, I had it already on.
Q And you didn't attempt to take any other weapon?
A No, sir.
Q, You didn't think you needed anythltiP else,
A I didn't take anything else.
Q You went down to kill the Italians, didn't you?
A Well, I went down there, "out after I got down my mind changed.
Q When you went down you went down to kill the Italians?
A No, sir, not me.
CDNFIDENTIAL
nR
(CHANIIEE)
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DECLASSinED
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Q What was your purpose in going there?
A Just going. y
Q To see the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q /Old you carried the knife in your hand to see the fight?
A After I went down there I got the knife.
Q Why did you take the knife out?
A I figured someone might hit me.
Q Did anyone attempt to hit you?
A No, sir.
Q This American soldier who you saw that was cut and hleeding,
do you know who hit him?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Did you hit him?
A No, sir.
Q You cut that "boy, didn't you?
A No, sir.
Q When you were standing in that doorway, you wei« keeping Basden
out of the room?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you don't know who hit the American soldier soldier?
A I don't know, I didn't do it.
Q What did you do with the knife after the fight?
A I taken it hack to the barracks with me.
Q Md the next day did someone pick the knife up from you?
A Captain Kapitz, he said, "All those that got those knives give
them to me."
Q And you turned it over to him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he say he would return it?
A He said the knife would be returned to us when we got on board, we
were supposed to go across.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q They would be returned to you after you got on the hoat?
A Yes, sir, that is what he said.
Q Did he say what he was going to do with the knives?
A No, sir.
Q He Just asked to turn the knife over to Jiia and they would "be
returned after you got on hoard?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have anything else you would like to sidd?
A No, sir.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of Pvt. Weillace A. Wooden, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 29 September 19ii-U "by Lieut.
Colonel Curtis L. WilliSnis, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial numher.
A Wallace A. Wooden, 56789652, 650th Port Company, Fort Lawton,
Weshington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2Uth
Article of War?
A No, sir.
(2i4-th Article of War read and explained to the witness)
Q On the night of August l^i-th, 19^^*-, were you i, Fort Lawton when
the colored soldiers attacked the Iteilian Quartemjaster Company soldiers?
A I was.
Q What was the first mention you heai'd of the fight? What was the
first incident that called your attention to the fight?
A To tell the truth I was playing poker at the time -the fight begun.
Q
A
Q
Carter .
Q
A
Q
A
A
Shooting dice or playing poker?
I wasn't shooting dice.
Who were you playing poker with?
Nathaniel Spencer, Booker Uiornton, William Wilson, William G.
Who else?
One of the fellows by the name of Townsell.
What Townsell was that, Booker?
This fellow is from the 65l8t.
Where were you playing?
la the extreme rear of Barracks 717.
Upstairs or down?
Downstairs.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(WOODEN)
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DECLASSIFIED
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Q While you were playirjg, did you hear some noiae outside the
building ahout 11 o'clock?
A No, sir, as a matter of fact I wasn-'t paying any attention to the
noise going on on the outside.
Q What happened inside the hullding?
A Some fellow came in there and "blew a whistle for everybody to '
fall out, "but we didn't pay any attention.
Q
A
Q
A
0
A
Q
Viho "blew the whistle?
I don't know.
Someone came in and "blew a whistle?
Yes, sir and said to fall out. I didn't pay any attention.
Then what else happened?
That is all, as far as I recall.
What called your attention to the fight outside?
A As a matter of fact I didn't know there was a fight outside even
thought I heard the whistle. That was a common occurrance in their eirea,
boys playing with one another.
Q Didn't you go outside?
A No, sir, I didn't, not then.
Q When did you first go outside?
A Afterwards the game got small, there were three left and we decided
to stop and I waLlked outside and stopped and went to the latrine before
I walked outside and I walked across the street and came back.
Q In the vicinity of Building TOO you went?
A Yes, sir.
0 What was going on then at the mess hall?
A At that particular time I can't say what was going on inside,
I didn't go on inside.
Q What vaa going on outside?
A A few fellows were standing and talking to themsalves.
Q What were they doing?
A Standing talking.
Q What about?
CONFIDENTIAL
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you go?
45
A
I cannot say.
Was there a lot of talk atout Willie Montgomery getting hit?
I did hear eomethlTig ahout that.
Some Italians had hit Willie?
He had heen hit.
Was the whistle "blown outside of your quarters?
No, sir.
Was the "bunch there gathering and "breaking down the fence?
NO; sir.
They had "broken down the fence?
I giiiess so.
Did you see the fence?
I didn't pay any attention.
Was the fight going on down in the Italian Area then?
I cannot say truthfully.
You didn't hear the noise?
At the time I was there I couldn't say it was fighting.
You didn't hear the noise?
No, sir.
When was the time you heard the noise?
I didn't hear any noise when I came out, there were a few fellows
to themselves, but I didn't go up and try to listen.
How long did you stay outside the "building?
Several minutes.
Fifteen minutes?
I don't know, you know.
Wo'Jild you guess it would "be ten or fifteen minutes or more?
I don't know, I couldn't give no statement definitely.
.After you heard the men talking around B urracks 7OO, where did
Tc my barracks.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Q
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What did you do after you got back up tliere?
I went to "bed.
Q When you weat to bed what was happening in the harrackB?
A A lot of hoys-- some of them was packing their duffle bags
and some of them was sitting around talking.
Q What were they talking about?
A That I didn't hear, everybody was in bed in the barracks and they
were fooling around.
Q They were talking about this fight, weren't they?
A I don't know, sir.
Q Didn't you hear some of them talking about the fight?
A Not at that time.
Q And you went to bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q And later you were awakened?
A No, sir, I didn't awaken any more until the following morning.
Q When did you hear them talking about che fight in the barracks?
A I didn't hear them.
Q When I asked you you said they weren't tedklng about the fight
right then.
A No, sir, I was in bed asleep.
Q ^"hen did you hear them talking about the fight?
A I didn't say they were talking about the fight in the barracks.
If I said it I didn't mean to say it, I didn't hear them talking about
the fight.
Q You have heard since that time a conversation ceLrried on between
the members of your company about the fight?
A I heeird some few fellows say something about it.
Q Where waa that?
A In the guard house.
(4 Since "Che fight?
A I heard them talking about they were sorry the fight happened.
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Q Who?
A Sims.
Q Jesse Sims?
A Yes, sir.
Q You heard Sims talking atout it?
A He said he was sorry the thing happened,
Q He said he was there, didn't he?
A He didn't say.
Q Did he say what he did in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Did anyone in the fight say what they did?
A No, sir.
Q You heard no one that night in the "barracks or sulisequent to that
time in the guard house say anything ahout the fight or their participation
in it other than Sims?
A You know, a hunch of fellows were talking, you know, like things
happen.
Q Name the fellows.
A All of them, I don't know.
Q Name those you know.
A I heard Montgomery say he was sorry the fight happened.
^ Roy MontgoQsry, the "bright colored hoy?
A Yes, sir.
Q You heard him say he was sorry?
A Yea, sir.
0 What did he say he did?
A He didn't say.
Q He never told you he hit a man standing in Building 715?
A No, sir.
i Did you see him ''-.it hira?
A There was nohody-- I didn't see anybody fighting.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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ll Q You didn't see any fighting at all?
2I A No, sir.
3!
4! Q And that is all you know alsout the fight?
5! A That ia all, sir.
71 Q You went down there, didn't you?
8{ A No, sir, I didn't have no part in It at all.
101
12!
Q Didn't you get a club and go down there and help?
A No, air.
,3) Q What did you get mad at the Italians aljout?
14 A Me?
15;
16; Q Yes.
I7| A I haven't been mad at anyone.
is!
19; 0 Weren't you mad becauoe they heat up Willie Montgomery?
20 A No, sir.
21:
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23 A No, air.
24
25 Q You knew he had been hit?
26. A I didn't know if he did.
27
28' Q You saw him lying on the steps in front of Building 717?
29 A I did not.
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32 the building?
33 A No, sir.
34
35 Q Now, Wallace, you have been in a lot of trouble in your life?
36 A Yes, sir, I certainly have.
37
38 0, You have been tried for armed robbery?
39 A Yes, sir.
40
41 And convicted?
42 A Yes, sir.
43
44 q ^xii you know that other trouble you have been in, dealing in liquoj
45 and running a house of prostitution, you know you have been tried for that?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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A Yes, sir.
Q Wow, do you have anything else you would like to tell m© "before
you ore excused?
A No, sir.
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TestlmoTjy of Ert. George L. Johnson, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 29 September 19^ "by Lieut.
Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial number.
A George L. Johnson, 56897II2, 65l8t Port Company, Fort lawton,
Washington .
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2lith
Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you out at Fort Lawton on the night of August l^t-th, 19^^
when the colored soldiers Jumped on the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q V/hat "barracks do you sleep in?
A 672.
Q Were you in your barracks when you first heard of this fight?
A I was in bed.
Q Ycu were in hed?
A Yes, sir.
Q And vrhat was the first incident which drew your attention to the.
fight?
Well, I heard the noise, the first I heard of it I was frightened,
it scai-ed me and I got up out of bed and went to the front door and I
heard fellows with sticks and as I got to the to the door Robert Smith vas
standing in the door and the sergeant of our barracks, he said the boys
and the Italians are having it down there, I didn't do anything, I stood
there three or four minutes and went baCk and went to bed.
Q, You went back to bed after you heard the fight?
That is right,
5 When was the next time ."-ou got up?
A \men I got tack in bed and about 500 or U o'clock in the morning
the fellow across from me woke me up and told me to tmn ofi the radio.
I then went back to sleep.
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Q And you didn't get up until the next morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is all you know ahout the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q Wasn't there quite a few fellows came in after the fight?
A I wasn't 'up, I was in bed.
Q Who was sleeping next to you?
A Next to me was Leslie Porchi, and Alhert Felton under me and
Marshall Moore on the other side.
Q When the fight started down there, George, wasn't there a bunch
of "boys that ran out of your barracks down that way?
A I don't know anything about it.
Q
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you?
Q
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there?
Q
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Did you see any of them?
No, sir.
You stayed in the barracks all the time?
Yes, sir.
You never did leave the barracks?
No, sir.
Who were the boys that went down that sleep in the barracks with
I don't know, sir.
You mean you don't know any of them in the fight?
No, sir.
Were you in it?
No, sir.
What would you say if four fellows identified you as being down
I would gay that they was mfi-king a miatake.
You would say they were telling a lie, is that right?
That is right.
Herman Johnson was there, wasn't he?
I don't know, sir.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Q
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Do you know Willie Curry?
A little tit.
Did you see Willie down there that night?
I didn't see him when I wasn't down there.
You Insist you weren't down there?
That is right.
Q Do you have anyone to testify you were not there that you can
produce for ue to question?
A Herman Johnson, he ought to be ahle to say.
Q Herman Johnson, you would like us to question Herman Johnson
concerning your whereahouts on the night of August llfth, 19i^l»- is that right?
A That is right.
Q Nov, if it was proven "by evidence, George, that Herman Johneon
was down In the Italian Area on the night of August ll+th, 19^^ "beating the
Italians, would you want us to use him as an allhi witness for you to
prove you were in your barracks?
A No, sir.
Q
Do you know where Herman was that night?
rt. No, sir.
Q Do you know whether he was in the harracks that night?
A I don't remember seeing him.
Q Why do you want us to use Herman as a witness for you to prove
where you were on the night of August lUth, 19'<-*+?
A I don't know.
Q On the night of August iHh, 19^^ ^ you state you were in your
bed; is that right?
A Yes, air.
Q What time did you get intoxicated that night?
A I atai'ted around about UrJO that evening, some boys in the
company got paid and brought up a lot of beer and about 8:50 I.-Vas pretty
well Lit up and I went to bed.
^ You started drinking about UijO in the afternoon?
A Yes, sir, beer.
CONFIDENTIAL
(JOHNSON)
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Q Where were you drinking?
A Dovnn at the PX.
Q What hoys were you drinking with?
A John E. Brown and Roy Montgomery.
Q Name the others you know. -
A Theodore Davis was drinking heer.
Q Do yourememher some more, that is only three?
A Some men in the compa.ny I don't know.
Q Some in the company you don't know?
A Yes, sir. Chai'les D. Lewis, Eoy Lacey, Marshall Moore, that is
ehout all I can think of right now.
Q What time did you leave the PX?
A Around atout 8:50 or a quarter to nine, something like that.
Q Did all of these "boys leave with you?
A No, sir, Marshal left with me.
q Where did you go from the PX with Marshall Moore?
A Straight to the harracks.
Q Does Mai'shall Moore live in the same "barracks with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whereabouts does he stay?
A Right next to me.
Q You were kind of intoxicated when you went to youi- harracks about
8:50 or 9 o'clock?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you Immediately went to hed?
A Yes, air.
0 And you didn't see Herman Johnson or anybody else?
A No, sir, I don't remember.
Q Because if you were dr'onk you didn't see them?
A I didn't pay any attention or try to see them.
Q Did t/Iarshall Moore help you up to your barracks and put you to bed?
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A No, sir.
Q Were you sick?
A Not exactly.
Q You got to your tunk and innnediately went to sleep tecause you
were quite intoxicated?
A That is right.
Q When did you wake up next?
A When the fight started.
Q When the f ipht started?
A Yes, sir, the noise woke me up.
Q And you got up to see what it was £ill ahout?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't have to go to the latrine to vomit or anything?
No, sir.
Q You got up when you heard about the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do when you walked to the front door or hefore you
went to the front door, did you put on your clothes?
A I never did take them off.
A
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Q
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riffht?'
You had yovtr clothes on when you were in ted?
Yes, sir.
What clothes did you have on?
OD's.
Shoes?
Shoes.
You hadn't taken your shoes off?
No, sir, I didn't take anything off I had on.
Did you get your hat- "before you went to the front door?
No, sir.
You went to the ^ rent door and looked out a few iiinutes, Is that
CDNFIDENTIAL
(JCHNSON)
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is al2 I reraemlaer
That is right.
Who did you see at the front door?
Rohert Smith was standing at the door.
Did you see Herman Johnson?
I don't remember seeing him.
You know where Herman Johnson does his pressing? ~"
Yes, sir.
VThen you got up did you see Herman Johnson pressing clothes there?
Not that I rememher.
If he had "been there you would have seen him?
I think so.
So he wasn't there, was he?
I ain't saying, I don't remember.
Who do you remember seeing?
Freeman Pierce and Joe Scott.
What was Pierce doing?
Standing -- sitting on his bed and Joe Scott was in the bed.
Was Scott undressed and in bed?
No, sir, he sleeps the first bed from the door.
Who else did you see?
Tboraas Chaney and Sergeant Eattieste, the sergeant of the barr-acks.
He was at the front door of the barracks?
Yes, air.
Who else do you remember seeing there?
The two that sleep beside me, Albert Felton and Foshi, that
^ Oolng back to the time you were in bed and somebody woke you ut-
i ■ 1 o ■
-:-.. no1-e.
Nooody voke you up?
That la right.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q Who walked to the front door vith you?
A 1101303;^', I walked there by myself.
Q How long did you stay at the front door?
A Three or four minutes.
Q Did you talk to anybody there?
A No, sir, V _
Q Were quite a few boys on the outside?
A Yes, sir, quite a few in the yard.
Q But you didn't go out?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Was there any other boy standing at the front door?
A Eobert Smith.
Q Did you have any conversation with Eobei-t Smith?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you talk with him at all?
A No, sir.
Q Is Robert Smith gone with the company?
A He is in the hospital.
Q You stood there three or fo'xr- minutes and turned around and walked
back and went to bed?
A Yes, sir.
A
Q
A
0
A
c
A
When you got back in bed did you talk to anybody?
No, sir, I turned the radio on.
And you went back to bed then?
Yes, sir.
Did you undress?
No, sir.
You went back to bed in your clothes?
Yes, sir.
How did you happen to go to bed with year clothes on^
Ve were leaving early the next ucrning.
CONFIDENTIAL
(jchnson)
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on?
Q
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morning?
A
Weren't you going to get up earlier than the average morning?
A little earlier.
Anyway you went back to bed with your clothes, shoes, and everything
Yes, sJr.
Did you get under the blankets?
No, sir.
You were Just on top?
Yes, sir.
ft
Did you put on your leggins?
They were already on.
They were already on?
Yes, air, and I had tny pack rolled.
vftiy, you weren't going to leave until about 8 o'clock the next
No, sir, they didn't say no certain time.
Then if Bobert Smith saw you standing in the door whiil.e the fight
was going on he should be able to testify to that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you want us to talk to Eobert Smith about vrhether or not you
were standing In the door of Barracks 672 while the fight was going on
in the Italian Area?
A He was standing there when I arrived.
Q Do you want us to talk to Robert about it?
A It will be all right with me.
Q Then you offer Robert Smith as an Alibi witness to prove you
were not in the Italian A-r^ea?
A I don't offer nobody as an alibi witness.
Q You want to stand on your testimony you were not there?
A That Is right.
C: Do you have anything else you would like to add?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
..213
(jOm^SCN) (END)
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Testimony of Pvt. Milton D. Bratton, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 29 September 19'^'^ ^y Lieut.
Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGC.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial number.
A Milton D. Bratton, 57751179, 6,^0th Fort Company, Fort Lawton,
Washington.
Q Are you familiar with jovir rights as a witness under the 2li-th
Article of Wai-?
Q
"6
A
Yes, sir.
On the night of August iHh, I9UU, were you out at Fort Lawton?
Yes, sir.
In what "barracks?
719, upstairs.
Q What was the first incident that brought to your attention this
trouble that was going on outside the barracks?
A A man by the name of Wilson awakened me and told me there vras
trouble goias on oute'de and I should get up and put on my clothes in
case something happened.
Q
A
Did you get up?
Yes, sir, and put on my pants.
0 What was the cause for Wilson awakening you, if you know?
A He didn't say what, he said he wanted me to put on my clothes
in case something came up there.
Q Wasn't there someone that came in the building saying there was
a fight outside?
A No, sir, at the time he awakened me it must havf been In progress
because there wasn't anyone that vent out. Just the boys that vent to bed
were tlie only ones up there.
0 when you were awakened did you go around to the window?
.i Yes, sir.
Q Did you move towai'd the front of the b'^lldlng?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1214
(3RATT0N)
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A No, sir, the windov was at the side.
Q
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Did you look out the window on the south side?
I don't know the directions.
Well, this is Virginia Avenue.
That is where I looked out the window.
Could you see the mess hall? ' ■ ■
Yes, sir.
When you looked out what did you see?
All I could see was a lot of fellows hollering and running around.
.md teating down the board fence alongside the ness hall?
I didn't see that.
There was a hoard fence out there previous to this night?
I think it was wire.
2_'Dy-l;'3 with wire stretched between then.'?
Yes, sir, it come up like this.
Wfere they tearing down that feace when you locked out?
No, sir.
You didn't see anyone tearing it down?
Ho, sir.
After you looked out of the window, what did you do?
I went hack to bed.
Did you see a bunch of men out there you recognized?
Ho, sir, I coixldn't tell who was who.
You don't know who they were?
No, sir.
They were making a lot of noise and hollering, thovigh?
Yea, sir.
Did you see some of them going toward the Italian Area?
I didn't 38(3 anj'one going that way, the mes.s hall was straight
ihead.
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355
• CDNFIDENTIAL •
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Q You could see this road?
A No, sir, the road is on the other side.
Q Did you see anyone running down that side of the mess hall?
A No, sir.
Q All you could see was people in front of the "building?
A In front of the mesa hall ,
Q Did you see any of them with cluhe?
A No, sir.
Q After you savr that group of people you went hack to "bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you get in oed?
A Yes, air.
Q Did you go back to sleep?
A I didn't go to sleep iTranediately.
Q \/hi3e you were awakened, what happened there inside Building 719'
A Wilson wsa talking and the "boys there were talking.
Q !<n^.o wsrw they?
A Sergeant Foster, Booker Tovnsell, J. D. Horton, and Caldwell.
Q VHiat were they tiD.king aho\it?
A The fight.
Q V/hat did they say?
A They werH jiist talking, they were talking about the advisability
of staying up there.
A
They were discussing whether they should go down there?
Yes, sir, whether they should stay up there.
Q You can state definitely Booker Townsell, Sergeant Foster, J. D.
Horton all remained in Building 719 vhlle the fight was going en?
A Yes, sir.
C. Are you sure, thej .stayed ir- the tuild.ing?
A "es, si:-.
Q Could ycu heta- the "blows "being st-uc'<?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Cepattox)
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Q
A
A
Q
outside?
A
Q
A
(^
A
Q
A
No, sir. -'^^
Did you hear any acreoralng p.nd hollering?
No, sir, I didn't hear anythinh hut the hoys around the harracks.
Did you go to the window and look out again?
No, sir.
Did any of the other hoys make remarks about what was going on
No, sir, there was nothing to he seen.
There was stll3 a hunch of people milling around?
When I looked out the window.
Did you then go to sleep?
Yes, sir.
Did you go to sleep "before the other hoys got hack to the harracks?
Yes, sir.
a
You didn't see any of them when they got hack?
The next time I was awakened the first sergeant, Sergeant Hurks
had an officer with hira, an NT, an officer, came up to quiet the fallows
down and they woke me up.
Q
A
Q
A
a
What did they say wben they ceme hack?
The first sergeant?
Yes.
3* advised everyhody to stop the noise and go to sleep.
Did they step Inside?
As far as I know, yesy.sir.
0 Did the officer say arching?
A No, sir.
Q Did the first sergeant and the officer then leave the upper part
of Building 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q V^hile you were awakened that second tjme and whi3e the officer and
the ^.1rst sergeant were up there, did you see ariyone coming In from the
outside of the cuilding other than the two men?
A No, 3ir^ I went hack to sleep.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(ekattok)
555
•iiteCDNFIDENTIAL
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^3S^
By^NAR.\ Date/£.^:3'
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Q Did you ascertain as you were awakened the second time whether
any beds were empty on the upper floor of Building 719?
k No, sir, the light was off.
Q So far as you know no one went in or out of that "building
from the time the fight started until then.
A I imagine everyhody that was out came hack 'n.
Q But you didn't see them come back in?
A No, sir.
Q And you don't know who went out after the fight started?
A No, sir, you see I worked on KP that night up until about
9 o'clock and after that I helped the platoon sergeant stencil some
things, and I had a headache xo boot.
Q
A
q
A
stockade ,
D
K
Q
A
Q
A
jacket.
A
Do you know Roy Montgomery?
I didn't become acquainted with him until I got in the stockade.
You know him when you see him?
Yes, sir, I became acquainted with him sines we came in the
Do you know Jamee Chandler?
Yes, sir.
Did you see Chandler on the night of August lUth, 19^1^?
Yes, sir.
What dealings did you and Chandler have that night?
This is before I went — he awakened me and borrowed my field
Did you loan him your field Jacket?
Yes, sir.
Q What did he tell you he wanted with it?
A He went ip to the bus with his mother and wife, aa a matter of
fact I went in front of the building to meet his mother, whom I didn't
know.
Q, Did you go down?
A No, 3ir, I didn't want bo get up.
Q Did Chandler later return Jomt field Jacket?
CDNFIDENTIAL
,«- X -•
(bratton)
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DECLASSIFIED
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556
• CDNFIDENTIAL •
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A It was there, I don*t know when he "brought It tack, I didn't
see him when he "brought it "back, "but it was there.
Q Did you examine your field Jacket to determine whether there
were "blood stains on it or anything like that?
A No, sir.
Q Did you own a knife, Bratton on the night of August lJ*^th, 19!^?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have that knife with you?
A That night, yes, sir.
Q What kind of a knife was it?
A I have a pocket knife which they have at the stockade now.
Q Was it a long "beaded knife?
A No, sir.
Q Could you identify the knife if you saw it again?
A Yes, sir.
C You didn't loan your knife to anyone, did you?
A No, sir.
Q You say that Booker Townsell was there with you?
A He was across the isle in "bed.
Q Was he there all the time?
A All the time I was awake.
Q I "believe you said you were awake during the fight and heard the
noise?
,\ I Was awake I imagine when the fight was going on.
Q Ahout hew long did you hear the noise?
A I wasn't out of bed over ten minutes.
Q "nd BookerTownsell was there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know that Booker Townsell has "been Identified as being in
the Italian Area "by several colored soldiers?
A I might have "been mistaken, while I was awake he was in bed with
hie clothes off.
CDNFIDENTIAL
i. -J
(BRATiON)
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Q He couldn't have 1)6611 "both places at once?
A He was in ted the whole time I was awake.
Q If it developea that Booker Townee 11 was there during the fight,
what would your reaction "be to that?
A I would "be surpBised, I don't see how it could he possible.
Q .Now, were you still awake when some of the boys got back from the
fight?
A No, sir.
Q You were sound asleep?
A I presume I '■ma. The next time I was awakened was when the
first sergeant came up.
Q Now, when th» first sergeant came up you say you were awakened
and Booker Townsell was still chere?
A I cannot say, he sleeps across the isle and the lights were out.
Q, Vere the lights turned on?
A No, sir, they had a flashlight and stopped et the head of the
stairs.
Q And you say you didn't leave the bai-racks at any tim.3 while the
fight was OQ?
A No. air.
Q You stayed there all the time?
A Yes, sir.
Q It is possible if you were asleep as you say you were that Booker
Townsell got uP and left the barracks and you don't know whether he was
there when the first sergeant caiie back or not?
A No, sir, I cannot say.
Q He could have gotten up sometime after you went, to sleep?
A I suppose 80, I cannot say.
0, It is impossible for you to say that Booker Townsell was in bed
d\jring that tiine?
A No, sir, I cannot say that, but when I was there tha
first time he wan there.
0 After you vent to sleep up to the time the first sergeant came up,
you couldn't state?
CONFIDENTIAL
(B3ATi'ClO
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A No, sir, I don't know.
Q Furthermore, when you and Townsell and all that group were
lying in "bed talking, Townsell was talking about going down there, wasn't
he? ^
A No, sir, I didn't hear that. \
Q What was the discussion you' referred to a moment ago?
A The discussion was the advisability of whether we should stay
where we were.
Q Why did you discuss that?
A We were figuring there would be a kick back from what was going on.
Q Do you have anything else you would like to add to your testimony?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1 22. I
(BEAT-TON) (END)
&
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_X2_^ ^
By^NARA Date_£^(2!^
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. #IK.)k9b< .
339
^CDNFiDENTIAL ^
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Testimony of Pvt. William G. Jones, taken at
Seattle, Vsehington on 29 September 19hk ty
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial number.
A William G. Jones, 369^^lQh, 650th Port Company, Fort lawton,
Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness uader the 2i|-th
Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of August l^ith, 19^^/ you were out at the Fort
Lawton Staging Area when there was a fight "between the Italian soldiers '
and the colored soldiers, were you?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
0
Yes, sir.
What "barracke do you sleep in?
719.
Were you in Barracks 719 when you first heard of this fight?
No, sir.
Where were you?
Standing out in front.
What was the first incident that was brought to your attention
which caused you to know there was a fight going on?
A The first sergeant telling the "boys to get hack in the "barracks.
Q As you stood in front of Building 719 other than the first
sergeant who did you ohserTe out there?
A Boys out in the street talking and hollering.
A
Q
A
What were they talking ahout?
Hollering they was fighting.
Fighting with the Italians?
Yes, sir.
Q Did they say they were going down and kill the Italians?
CONFIDENTIAL
1222
(JONES)
w
p
r
DECLASSIFIED
Authority__/_J_^^;^22___
Reproduced at the National Arch
,!,ji>ia>teinMMflilt
31^0
^CDNFIDENTIAL #
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Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
That vas after awhile.
You said you heard atout the fight,. then what did you do?
I went up there when it first started.
Where were you?
Up here around the corner . . ''
Up around the "barracks?
No, sir, up where the Tsus stop^ with the girls that came up to see u£
Who did you go up there with?
Me and ^te.8teur Graham.
What was the girl's naoe?
Miss Brooks.
Did you take her to the "bus stop?
A"bout half way.
Just "before the fight started you had "been with Willie Montgomery?
Yes, sir, down at the service club.
Q After that you, Willie, Luther Larkin, Addison George and another
soldier walked up to your company?
A We came up "by here and Corporal Graham went in.
Q When you other soldiers got in the vicinity of the mess hall or
Building 700, something happened to Montgomery?
A Vfe were in the mess hall of the 578th "boys, I didn't go in--
Q Didn't you go inside Building 7OO?
A Oh, yes, sir.
Q And had a "beer?
A I didn't have no "beer.
Q Wasn't there any "beer there?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you didn't irink any?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you hear music "being played on a guitar?
A Yes, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1223
(JONES)
.J J.'
i^-*4fei-,j,rii|jg^ .
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_27.3_^:i-l__
By^NARA Date^P^I^/^Z
Reproduced al the National Archw
f,«j!. J«S«!i- T.
51^1
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Q That was "being played "by a "boy "by the name of Nelson?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the first sergeant told you they were closing the mess hall,
the 578th?
A Yes, air.
Q
A
Q
A
with us.
Sergeant Tenner?
Yes, sir.
And then you went outside the "building?
Yeo, sir, with the rest of the group and the first sergeant was
Q VThen you went outside the building you saw a lot and heard a lot
of noise going on?
A A lot of soldiers standing around.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Wiat did ycu do?
I was standing there talking to the girls.
Didn't you take a look at one of the hoys laying on the ground?
There wasn't anybody laying on the ground.
Had Willie Montgomery "been hit?
No, sir. •"'
You didn't see Willie Montgomery as you stood there?
No, sir.
Did you see Addison George?
No, sir.
Did you see Luther Larkln?
NOo sir.
VJhere did you first see Roy Montgomery after you went outside the
mess hall?
A Part way up the hill toward the barracks.
Q Was it beyond the intersection of VirginiaAvenue and I,awton
Eoad where you saw Willie?
A Almost to the top of the hill where the road goes by the
orderly room.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1224
(JOKES)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority
Bv^IPnARA Date '^O'' 1^/02.
Reproduced at the National Arclir
.i^iteiwaw.
<^'-^
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^^CONFIDENTIAL •
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Q You met Willie half way up Lawton Eosui?
A Yes, sir.
Q Take a look at this map and show me where you met Willie.
This is the intersection of Virginia Avenue and Lawton Road.
A Here.
Q You saw Willie on Lawton Road opposite 666, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q i^at was Willie doing when you met him?
A He and Addison George were standing in the road.
Q When you met Willie on Lawton Road opposite 666, he was accompanied
by Ac'dison George, Luther Larkln and Roy Dpymond, wasn't he?
A Y63, sir, they was all standing there.
Q And you had some conversation with them?
A They Just asked me where I was going and I told them up here, with
the girl.
Q Did you go up the hill then?
A Across that road up there.
Q You took her up to Lawton Road?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you leave the girl?
A .Aroimd the corner to the white wai-ehouse.
Q By the white warehouse?
A Yes, sir.
Q Youleft the girl somewhere up on Utah Avenue?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you left the girl you came hack? •' "
A Me and Corporal Graham came "back.
Q You came "back doi^rn to your area through Lawton Road?
A No, sir, down the other street.
Q What street is that?
A Behind the harracks.
CONFIDENTIAL
1225
(JONES)
■fH^^-x-V
DECLASSIFIED
Authority J J-^^^^
By 53PnARA Dateii^(l2(21
Reproduced at the National Archn
dU«*-i'«*. JfeS' ^- >■»
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CONFIDENTIAL •
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Q Florida Avenue?
A Yes, sir.
Q Ycu ceune "back tovard the front of 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you arrived In front of 719, what was going on there?
A The first sergeant was telling the hoys to go in;
Q \fliat did you do then?
A I was asking what was going on.
Q What did the sergeant say?
A The sergeant said for the "boys to gc inside.
Q Did any of them go insidoi
A Yes, sir, the boys started 'back.
Q '.Vhere did you go?
A Back to the 'barracks.
Q 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then did you go to "bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q While you were outside Barracks 719 who did you see bealdes
the first sergeant?
A Addison George.
Q What was he doing in front of the huilding?
A Standing with the first sergeant.
Q Who else did you see?
A I don't know.
Q Did you see Roy D:iymond?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see Willie Montgoitery?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see luther Larkln out there? '
A IIo, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
.226
(JONES)
-^v uiit-^l*' -
^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "^^ ^^^ -
Bv^3PnaRA Date^P^I^/^Z
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•.^*>i<- iA>i'|l' '
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Q Did you see Luther Larkin go downstairs and go in the rlcinity
of Building 7OO and blow a whistle?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't hear a whistle hlown in the vicinity of 7OO?
A No, sir.
Q Now, you went "back inside and went to "bed?
A Yes, sir. layed on top of the ted.
Q Did you sleep upstairs?
A Downstairs .
Q When you got downstairs what happened downstairs?
A The "boys were talking ahout what they did.
Q The fight Isn't over yet?
A The fight was over when I got back.
Q The fight was over when you got hack?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then when you came hack in the building some of the boys were
talking about what they did?
A Yes, sir.
Q Toll me who was inside?
A Frank Hughes.
Q What did Frank Hughes say he had done down in the Italian Area?
A He said he cut one with a knife.
Q Where did he say he had cut one with a knife?
A He didn't say, he said he had cut one with a knife.
Q Did he say he was in the orderly room?
A No, sir.
Q Who else was there?
A David Walton.
Q What did David say he did?
A He hit one with a stick.
Q He hit one with a club?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1227
(JONES)
.iiS.-l**"*^
i-i ■
.♦ISi'i.A
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '/^ ^^^3 3
By^^NARA Date ^0^ I ^/'^ I
Reproduced at Die National Archiv
^(.tijii irti^iiSZ-g--
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A Yes, sir.
Q Bid he say vho the man was he hit with the cluh?
A2 No, sir.
Q Who else?
A Fohert Sanders.
Q What did Eohert say he had done in the Italian -\rea?
A He and Eohert Barter drove a Jeep through a tent.
Q Wlaich one said he drove it into the tent?
A Both said it at that time.
Q Both Robert Senders and Eichard Esu'lier said they had driven into
the tent?
A
Yes, sir.
Q Did they say why?
A He said they had somebody in there.
Q They were trying to run over them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they say they knocked the door down?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was Sanders arguing with Barber about who had driven the Jeep?
A Yes, sir.
Q They were having a little trouble about which one really run
the Jeep into the tent?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tb.ere was some dispute about which one did It?
A Yes, sir.
Q They both claimed each had dons it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else was talking?
A Luther Larkin.
Q What did he Bay he did?
A He said he blew the whistle.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1228
(JONES)
■-« •*-
DECLASSIFIED
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By 53PnARA Date^O^'^/OZ
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A
Where did he sajr he "blew the whistle?
He said he Talew the whistle for the "boys to fall out.
Did he say for what purpose?
To help fight.
To help fight the Italians?
Yes, sir.
Did he say the hoys came out when he "blew the whistle?
He said some of them came out.
Who else was talking?
Sergeant Hurks.
What did Sergeant Hurks say he did?
He said he threw some rocks.
He said he threw some rocks?
Yes, air.
Did he say into what building he threw the rocks?
He threw them into the barracks.
Did he say he hit anyone?
He didn't say, he Just said he threw the rocks.
Did he say he threw at the Italians tlirough the window?
Yes, sir.
Did he say he had hit any of them?
He didn't say.
Wasn'o there a bunch from upstairs at the same time?
No, sir.
Did you hear Sims say anything about what he did?
He said he hit some with a stick.
He said hn had hit a bunch with a stick?
Yes, sir.
Did he say whore he hit them?
No, sir, he said down in here.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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He said he knocked the air out of thetn?
Yes, sir.
Did you talk to Jesse firrther about the part he played?
No, sir, I wasn't talking, I was listening.
Did Sergeant Hut-ks tell you Richard Suttliff was in the
Yes, sir.
Did he sajr what Suttliff did?
No, sir.
What did he say?
He Just said he was down there fighting, }:e was arguing.
Was Levert Williams in the latrine when you were in there tel2,ing
hdd done?
He was standing thtire?
What did Williams say he did?
He hit with a stick.
Did he say he had heat up anyone?
He didn't say, he said he had hit them with a stick.
Did he say where he had hit them with a stick?
No, sir.
Henry Jupiter, where was Henry when he was talking about it?
Sitting on Price's bed.
What was Henry saying?
He said he hit one with a stick over the head.
He said he had hit one?
Yes, sir.
Did he say he knocked him out?
I cannot say.
Did he make any further remark?
That is all.
John Pinckney--
CDNFIDENTIAL
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saying.
Q
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He had an MP tand on.
Was he talking any?
He was sitting In the Jeep with the MP's.
Did you hear the MP's talking after the fight was over.
I heard them arguing with the hoys, I didn't hear what they were
Didn't you hear the MP's say the "boys did a good Jot?
Yes, sir, when the MP's came hack.
Q The MP's came and told the hoys they did a good job and saved them
from doing it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know who told them that?
A One of the MP's.
Q If you saw him again could you identify him?
A I don't think so.
Q Was it Just one MP that came hack or two of them?
A IVo of them.
Q Which one was doing the talking?
A Both of them.
Q Both of them said the hoys did a good Joh?
A He said they done a good Joh, he said we should have killed then'
that is what he said.
Q Did you see Eoy Daymond after the fight?
A Yes, sir, he was in the barracks.
Q Who was he talking to?
A Robert Sanders and Barber.
Q What did he tell them he had done? What did Roy Daymond say he
had done during the fight?
A He said he stood behind a door and hit one as he ran out.
Q What did he say he hit him with?
A He didn't say.
CONFIDENTIAL
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CONFIDENTIAL
Did he say he knocked him out?
Yes, sir.
What did Addison George eay he did?
He said he had a white stick.
Did he say he hit anyone?
He said he hit atout four of them.
Did he say he knocked them out?
He didn't aay.
Where did he say he hit them?
In the area.
Walter Jackson, did he say he had "been there during the fight?
He said he was throwing tricks.
Did he say where he was when he was throv/ing bricks?
Outside the "barracks.
He was throwing inside the window of the "barracks?
Through the window.
Did he say he hit any of the Italians on the inside?
He didn't aay.
Ro'bert Gresham, what did he say he did while he was down in the
Area?
He said he hit them with his fist.
He said be hit one with his fist?
Yes, sir.
Did he say he hit one with his fist?
He said he hit one with his fist.
Did you see him when he was coming out of the area?
No, sir.
What did Luther Lftrkin say he did?
Blew the whistle.
He said he went down there?
He said he went down there.
CONFIDENTIAL
vLi-
'^32
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DECLASSIFIED
71 ^^3?
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Q
What did he say he did?
He hit some with a stick.
Did he say he threw rocks?
No, sir.
Did he use a knife on any of them?
No, sir.
Arthur Stone, when you saw Arthur Stone what did he say he did
down there?
A He had a stick in his hand.
Q He had hrought a stick from the Italian Area?
H He had one in his hand?
Q Was he telling the MP's what he did?
A I don't know.
■4 He still had the stick in his hand when he was talking to the MP's?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was it a hutt can holder?
A It looked like one that came out of a bed.
Q A ted post?
A It looked like one, I don't know whether it vas or not.
Q Devid Walton, he said he hit one of the "boys down there?
A Yes, sir, he had a long knife.
Q Did he say he used the knife on anyone?
A He didn't say hut he had one, he had one in his hand.
Q Did you see the knife he said he had?
A H© had it in his hand.
Q What kind of a knife was it?
A A long knife.
Q Could you Identify the knife If you saw it again?
A I didn't see nothing hut the "blade.
Q Did it have a long "blade?
A About that long.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1233
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Slme?
Q He said he came from the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Wilbur Jenkins, where did you see him?
A Standing with Robert Senders and Richard Barber.
Q What did he say to Richard and Sanders?
A He said he beat up two with his fist.
0 He said he used his fist and beat up a couple of them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he say where he had beaten them?
A No, sir, Just down there.
Q Jesse Sims, on the night of August lUth, 19^h, did you see Jesse
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was he arguing with?
A With David Walton.
Q What did Jesse say he did?
A Thi-ew rocks and hit one with a stick.
Q Did he say what building it was in?
A In the barracks.
Q Did he say what building he hit them with the stick In?
A He hit them as they ran out.
Q. Md he say it was over at the orderly room?
A No, sir.
0 Is there anyone else you heard talking whom you recognized whether
I have called his name or not that you can identify as belwg in the fight?
A That is all I know.
Q When you heard these men talking in front of 719, the fight had ended
and the MP's were telling the boys to get back to the barracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q They had had no opportunity to make up any story ebout their
fighting since they had quit fighting, is that right?
A I don't know.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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0 Did you enter into the conversation with these Tjoys atout the
part you had played in the fight?
A No, sir, they asked where I was.
Q Did you tell them you had "been in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't mention to anyone you had "been down in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q. Did you see any ItaJ-ian soldiers walking down Lawton Road as
you met Willie Montgomery and Luther Larkin and Addison George?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see Willie Montgomery hit by the Italian soldiers?
A No, air.
Q Do you know Jesse Sims pretty well?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know Johnnie Ceaser fairly well?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Jack Chapman there that night?
A No, sir.
Q You know him pretty well?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know Alvin Clark?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know Rotert Sanders?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you on the night of August iHh, 19^1^ state to Robert Sanders
that you had "been down in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Did you state In the presence of Alrln Clark on the night of August lit
that you had been down in the fighting?
A I didn't see Alvin Clark at no time. . .
Q Did you on the night of August iHh, 19^k state to Johnnie Ceaser
that you were down in the fight?
A No, sir.
CONFIDENTIAL
1235
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Q While you were in Barracks 719 we have definite testimony
which places you as the man who came into the tarracks and told the
"boys there was a fight going on and everyhody to get out in front.
A I didn't tell nohody nothing, I wasn't there when it started.
0 Now, Jotins, you want to change the statement you made a
moment eigo ?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were over in the mess hall, Building 700, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you had a girl?
A Yes, sir.
Q .^nd you "brought the girl out and walked up the street a little
ways, about even with Building 666 on lawton Eoad; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And as you walked up the road you left the girl there at the
llfctle path that runs through thei-e?
A I left her at the other side of that last "barracks, that last
"barracks .
Q When you left her there you turned ai'oimd and went "back with
Willie Montgomery and luther Larkin and Deymond?
A Yes, sir.
Q And as you approached the intersection of Lawton Road and
"Virginia Avenue —
A Luther Larkin, Taymond and me walked in front of Montgomery,
he was drunk-- I don't know whether he was or not-- but we came to
Virginia Avenue and Lawton Road and there wei-e three Italian soldiers
and Montgomery said something to them, I didn't pay any attention.
Q Then you saw Montgomery chase the Italians down the road?
A Just a little ways, by the tree, and the Italian ran back and
hit him and ran back down. the road.
Q The Italian ran back and hit Montgomery and then ran dOWft the
road down into their area?
A Yes, sir, and Daymond picked him up and carried him back.
Q Daymond picked him up and carried him i« fre«t '»f 719
and laid him down?
CDNFIDENTIAL
i23G
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A Yes, Bir.
Q Then what happened?
A Daymond ran in the "barracks and told the 12078 Montgomery had
heou hit by the Italians and they came hack out to see wliat wasvo-ong with
him and Larkln and Daymond told themt. and. there were 20 or 25 hoys
standing arovind looking at him and then Daymond ran up the hill and me
and him went to talk to Sergeant Pedmer.
Q Didn't Larkin hlow the whistle?
A He went across the street looking for a whistle or something.
Q Did you and Daymond- -
A I went up the hill to see Sergeant Palmer what run the 650th
and he come out and asked what was wrong and we said that Montgomery
had been hit by the Italians on this hill and and he came over and said
to go call an ambulance.
Q
Eurks?
A
While you were talking bo Sergeant Palmer, did you see Sergeadt
No, sir, I didn't see hiqj, Luther talked to Hurks.
Q Then when Luther left the vicinity of Building 7OO he went toward
Building 668 and told Hurks what was wrong?
A Yes, sir, the majority of these boys came out of these barracks.
Q Then Luther went up and talked to Hurks?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he do?
A Blew the whistle and the 651st boys came out.
Q The 651st Port Company members and the 650th?
A Yes, sir.
Q They all came around Building 700?
A Yes, sir.
0 Then what happened?
A I went down the hill.
Q To the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you go in the first group?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1237
(JONES)
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out?
A No, sir, I helped put Montgomery in the ambulance.
Q V/hen Luther "blew the whistle you Btate about 25 or 50 came
Yee, sir.
Q Ihen when Sergeant Hurks blew the whistle how many men of the
65l8t came down and Joined Sergeant Hurks in the vicinity of Building 7OO?
A About 50.
Q So you had a party of about 75 or 100 men assembled around
Building 700?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then eifter they had assembled in the vicinity of Building 7OO,
who led them into the Italian Area?
A Lai'kin and Hurks.
Q Larkin and Hurks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did that first group get their clubs?
A They broke this rail fence up.
a They broke the fence down in front of Building 700?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they carried it wtth;them to the area?
A Yes, sir.
<i Did they pick up any rocks around Building 7OO?
A Yee, sir.
Q Did you go in the first group that went to the Italian Area?
A No, air, I helped put Montgomery in the ambulance.
Q Wea it an ambulance or a Jeep?
A An ambulance.
Q Did the ambulance go then?
A Yes, sir, they came across the street.
Q You went back of Building 7OO, you and Sergeant Greoham?
A Yes, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
J.238
(JONES)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J -^^^"^
By^NARA Date'^O'^'^^OZ
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.^jfHti^b.AMiJttuaesr'^
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do?
Q Aad went "behind the mess hall. Building 7OO?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you got "behind the mese hall, Building 7OO, wliat did you
A Threw coal.
Q You and Sergeant Greshaxa?
A Yes, sir.
Q You threw coaJ.?
A Yes, sir.
Q In "back of Building 7OO and hit Barracks 708?
A Yes, sir.
Q At the time you and Gresham threw coal against 708, what was the
group of 75 or 100 men doing in the Italian Area?
A Going in the barracks.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Going into the "barracks?
Yes, six'.
In 708 and 709?
Yes, sir.
Were the Italiems making noise?
Hollering.
Could you see the Italians running as you stood "behind Building 7OO?
Yes, sir, I seen some running down the road.
Down Wyoming Avenue?
Yes, sir.
Was there some colored soldiers chasing them?
Yes, sir.
Who did you see chasing the Italians down Wyoming Avenue?
I couldn't see them.
Who in this first group that went into the Italian Area did you
recognize?
A Hurks and Larkln. These are the only ones I was paying any attention
to, the majority of them were from the 651st.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1239
(JONES
«if- ,
..^- .•«iifl»-. »> ■*^ - -^ "- V:*'
r^/ M'' .k.
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P
357
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Q Twenty-five or thirty came out of your tarracks?
A Yes, sir, I know.
Q Who were they?
A Sims.
Q Sims came out of Barracks 7I9 and went down to the Italian
Area in the first group?
A Yes, sir, and Walter Jackson.
Q What did Sims and Jackson take as they left?
A They didn't have anything, they picked up rocks.
Q As they went along?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else did you see? Who tore the fence down?
A Henry Jupiter.
Q Who else?
A Eohert Sanders.
Q Who else?
A Those are the only two that tore the fence down.
Q Who else did you see in the first group that went down to the
Italian Area that you knew?
A Well, sir, the "boy they was talking ahout. Snow.
Q Snow was one that went down in the first group?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he have a club?
A No, sir.
Q Who else did you see?
A Alvin Clark.
Q Who else did you see going down there?
A A colored hoy, I don't know him, I think his name is Nelson Alston.
Q Ee went in tlie f i:'st group?
A Yee, sir.
Q Who else?
CONFIDENTIAL
40
(JONES)
■■^.
.■T,»-.*jW-,
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ""^l -^03 >
Bv^IPnara Dzte.o^lni^
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-«»dMiiKv.-"Mi^
558
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A David Walton and Frank Hughes.
Q Who else?
A Lee Taylor.
Q Who else?
A Freddie Lee Simmons.
Q Who else?
A Rohert Suttllff .
Q Who else?
A Alhert Pettus.
Q You saw him in the first group?
A Ye 8; sir, and Sergeant Mack Shaw.
Q Did he have a cluh when you saw him go in the area?
A No, sir.
Q What did he have?
A Nothing, they were all Just running down.
Q Who else did you see?
A Sergeant Howard.
Q Is Sergeant Howard a member of the 650th?
A Yes, sir.
Q la that Sergeant William E. Howard?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he have with him?
A Nothing.
Q Who else did you see, Jones?
A Lever t Williams.
Q What did he have in his hands?
A & atick.
Q What kind of a clut was that?
A A little stick.
Q A 2-by-l^?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1241
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A ATaout this wide?
Q About 5 feet long?
A Atout that long.
Q Who was it that was waving the stick and telling the toys to
come on, Levert?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was one of the first to go down?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else?
A Johnnie Ceaser.
Q What was he doing?
A He was up there with Luther Larkln.
1
Q Did he have a stick?
A No, sir.
Q What did he have?
A Nothing.
Q But he was running into the Italian Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was running along with Luther Larkln?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else did you see?
A I don't know.
Q That was all you remember?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, after you and Gresham arrived "behind Building 70O and observed
what was going on in the Italian Area and you threw coal at building 7O8,
who did you see in the area you recognized?
A The same group.
Q The same group you had seen previously?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who did you see in the vicinity of the Italian Area particularly?
CONFIDENTIAL
1242
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A Robert Sanders and Richard Barter.
Q Sanders and Barter were chaalng one of th.e Italians?
A Yea, sir.
Q Which way did the Italian run?
A Atout three Italians run toward the dispensary.
Q Down Wyoming Avenue toward the dispensary. Building 705?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see them catch the man they were chasing?
A No, sir.
Q He got away?
A I don't know.
Q Did you hear him holler after he left your sight?
A No, sir.
Q Did you heat' them hit them?
A No, sir, they were throwing rocks.
Q They were tJirowing rocks at these Italians running from them
down Wyoming Avenue on the night of August l^l-th, 19kk7
A Yea, air.
Q Who else did you see chasing the Italians?
A That MP ran up this way with Gresham.
Q Now, you state you saw an Italian running out of the area
toward Building 7OI and 702 and Gresham and an M? took after hia?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Italian whcan you saw running out of the Italian Area and
running tetween Building 7OO and 101 , he was teing chased ty the tall
MP who had an MP clut?
A Yes, sir.
Q mdi Gresham Joined him, did he.
A Yes, air.
Q Did they catch him?
A They ran up here and came out again.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1243
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Q You watched them run him up Virginia Avenue?
A Yea, sir, he went this way.
Q Did you see the MP and Greeham chasing him as he came back
across VJtoming Avenue the second time?
A He ran this way and they came hack.
Q Gresham and the MP came hack here to the corner?
A That is when the Major and. Lieutenant Si*trunk came down.
C Why was the MP chasing the Italians?
A He was going to tust his skull.
Q Why was Gresham chasing him?
A Gresham said he would help catch him.
Q He wanted to help catch him and help hust him?
A Yes, sir.
Q This MP was a tall slim fellow?
A That is right.
Q He had a club?
A Yes, air.
Q Who else did you see that participated in that fight on the
night of August l4th, 19^^? How about Mat his, did you see Mathis in
the Italian Area?
A I don't know Mathis.
Q How about Herman Johnson?
A He is not in our company.
Q Do you know Herman Johnson?
A I know him.
Q Did you see him that night?
A I don't remember seeing him.
Q Who did you see through the windows of the buildings that were
inside the Italian Area?
A There was some boys standing in this road by the bushes.
Q Who were they?
A There were about 10 or 12 of them, I didn't see them, I could
see rocks coming out of the bushes.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1244
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6 562
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Q You couldn't tell who the fellovs were?
A No, sir.
Q Are you sure you don't know who they were?
A Ko, sir.
Q Didn't you go down to see who they were?
A No, sir.
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Q Did Gresham go down to see who they were?
A No, sir.
Q Did the MP go down?
A Wo, sir.
Q That was hofore tJie MP arrived there?
A Yes, sir.
Q If you could see the I-IP again, could you recognize him?
A Ho, sir, I don't know him.
Q But you are sure, Jones, it was a white MP?
A Yes, sir.
Q Not a colored MP?
A He wasn't colored.
Q Was it a light complexioned MP?
A It wasn't a colored MP, he was white.
di You are sure he was white?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he heid an arm hand and a stick?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Gresham Joined him to chase the Italian running up in that
direction?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of clothes did the MP have on?
A OD's, pants and blouse.
Q He had on OD pants and "blouse and garrison cap. Did he have
on an arm hand and carry a stick in his liand?
fe.-.
!■."
CDNFIDENTIAL
.245
(jokes)
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A He had white leggins and a leather "belt.
Q Do you know Private Lomax, an MP at Fort Lawton?
A I don't know Private Lomax.
Q Did you hear the MP's voice at any time he was in this vicinity
on the night of August lii-th, 19i^l^?
A No, sir, he just come down and some other MP's told him to
stay and keep the colored hoys from going down and bothering them.
Q Do you know where this MI' came from?
A He said he came down here with six other MP's and they told him
to stay there.
Q In the vicinity of Building 7OO?
A Yee, sir.
Q What did he say?
A ''God damn, I am going to catch him and bust his skull." Gresham
said, "Let's go."
Q Tlie MP who chased the Italian had been stationed in the vicinity
of Lawton P.oad and Wyoming Avenue?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he was standing there when the Iteilian ran out of the area?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the MP said, "God damn, let's get him"?
A Yes, sir, let's go bust his skiill. I ran a little ways and
stopped.
Q You then only chased the Italian up as far as the front end of
Building 700 and you stopped?
A Yes, sir.
Q Gresham and tlse MP continued to chase him?
A Yes, sir.
Q They got between Building 7OI and 702 when he Itumed to the left?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Gresham and the MP chasing him after they went behind
Building 701?
A They stopped.
''>%:'
CDNFIDENTIAL
i24G
(JONES)
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Q They stopped?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then where did the MP go?
A He stayed there .
Q Did you see him any more that night?
A Ho, sir.
Q Have you seen him since that time?
A No, sir.
Q But you are sure the MP didn't catch the Italian?
A No, sir, he didn't catch him.
Q How was the Italian dressed that you "boys ware chasing?
A He had on coveralls, fatigues. •
Q Did he have on shoes?
A Yes, sir.
Q Pants?
A Coveralls.
Q Did you see the Italian go "back into the Italian Area?
A He cut hack this way.
Q And you didn't see him any more?
A No, sir.
Q While you were there in the Italian Area, did you see any Italians
that had heen caught "by anyone?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see any Italians running from the colored soldiers, running
hack in the woods?
A No, sir,
Q Did you see any colored soldiers driving the Jeep?
A No, sir, hut I heard ahout it.
Q Then you didn't see Curry or any of these other soldiers here
that drove into the tent?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
O A 7
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Q Did you see any Italian soldiers jumping out of the windows of
Building 709?
A No, sir, I couldn't see down there.
Q Now, Jones, in your first statement today, a few minutes ago,
you stated after the fight was over you came hack to the barracks and
entered Into a conversation with severeil members of your company and of
the other company, where In you discussed the fight that had been going
on in the Italian Area between the colored soldiers and the Italian soldiers.
Is that statement which you made concerning what was said in your presence
true?
A Yes, sir, what t&e boys said was true.
The first part of your statement concerning the statements made
In the latrine. In Building 719, you don't want to change?
A Hoji.sir.
Q Why did this MP make the remark he was going to bust his skull?
A I don't know.
Q Is there anything else, Jones, you would like to add to your
testimony?
A That is all I know.
CONFIDENTIAL
1243
(JONES) (END)
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Testimony of Sgt. John S. Brown, taken at
Seattle, Wsishlngton on 50 Sfeptember 19Uh tj
Lieut. Colonel Curtla L. Williams, IGD.
!rhe witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial number.
A Sergeant John S. Brown, 5^518595, 578th Port Company,
Fort Lairton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with yovir rights as a witness undjer the
2Uth A3-tlcle of War?
A Yes, sir, some of them.
Q Do you want me to explain them to you?
A Yes, sir*
*
(2Uth Article of War read and exi)lained to the witness)
Q On the night of August iHh, 19kkf were you in Barracks 720?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is where you were when you heard a lot of noise on the outside
of that harracks in the vicinity of Building 7OO?
A I was in the building right across from 7OO,
Q In 720?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the first Incident which you heard that called your
attention to the noise that was going on outside?
A There was a hoy woke me up. Earl Lallis.
Q What did Earl tell you when he awakened you?
A He woke me up and he said there was a fight and I said, "Who?"
and he said, "The two companies fixing to leave and the Italian prisoners."
Q Did you get up?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Earl do?
A Nothing.
CDNFIDENTIAL
J-249
(BROWN)
Reproduced al the National Archi\
DECLASSIFIED
Authority Jj-^'^^'>
Bv^:iPNARADate^fe^':2/0Z
^i«'=4lbiii...
,:scisrii»i' .
567
CONFIDENTIAL
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Q Did he go outside the building?
A Hot that I know.
Q Did this noise continue on the outside of the "building while you
laid in laed?
A After Lain 8 woke me up the first sergeant told us that
nohody could go out of the "barracks.
Q Was that Sergeant Tanner?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who did you observe there?
A McDaniels.
Q Who else?
A Earl Lallis.
Q Were both of these boys in bed at that time?
A I don't know. Earl was.
Q You don't know whether McDaniels was In?
A I don't know whether he was in bed.
Q He was in the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q You talked to him while the fight was going on?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see him?
A 1 heard his yolce.
Q You could be definite that McDaniels was in the building at the
time the fight was going on outside between 11 and 12 o'clock?
A I heard he was in the barracks at that time. I heard McDaniels
was in the building at the time the first sergeant told us nobody could
come out of the barracks.
Q Now, at the same time that McDaniels was in the building and
the first sergeant was telling them not to cooie out, did you hear boards
being broken in front of Building 7OO?
A I heard it once.
Q You heard it once?
A Yes, sir.
F'
^
CDNFIDENTIAL
.25U
*f/
■:^:^^'
't^t-rUK- - ' ■■■'j-
(EROWN)
-<**-'.^-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^/^ ^-
.33
By^3pNARADate^fc^i:^/0Z
Reproduced at the National Arch
..3v; '*
568
CONFIDENTIAL •
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Q Didn't you get up to Bee what was going on that caused the first
sergeant to say to stay In the "barracks?
A No, sir.
Q Wasn't there anyone In your part of the "barracks that went to the
window to look out?
A Earl Lallis was telling a'bout It, I don't know whether he went
to the window.
Q Was he talking to you?
A He called, "Brown, wale up, there Is a fight going on out here,"
and I asked him who It was and he said, "The two companies fixing to leare
and the Italian prisoners." He said. Aren't you going to get up," and
I said no, "because I was too tired.
Q What did you hear McDaniel say about the fight?
A Nothing. He said the first sergeant mus^ "be scared that is why
he won't let no"body come out.
Q What else did McDaniel say that you heard?
A Nothing.
Q Did you see McDaniels after the fight was over?
A He was in the "barracks.
Q Now, after you haard the "boards "breaking and heard the first
sergeant telling them not to come out and also heard McDaniels in the
"barracks and Lallis in the "barracks, did you hear the fighting going on
in the Italian Area?
A No, sir.
Q You heard glass "being broken?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you hear people hollering?
A Once.
Q Was that before or after the time you heard the boards being broken?
A It was about the time the boards were broken.
Q About the time you heard the boards being broken in front of
Building 700 you heard hollering in the Italian Area?
A I heard hollering, I couldn't tell what direction. •
Q Did it Bousd like some men in pain?
CDNFJDENTIAL
1251
(BBOWN)
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569
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A
Q
there?
A
Q
In front
A
Q
A
No, sir.
Just hollering?
Yes, sir.
Did you hear rocks heing thrown agalnet buildings?
No, sir.
Did you hear clubs "being slamned against buildings?
No, sir.
You didn't hear any of that?
No, sir.
You never got out of your bed at the time the fight was going
No, sir.
And you never even looked out?
No, sir.
You had no interest in it whatsoever?
No, sir.
You were tired and didn't want to get up?
I didn't want to get up, it wasn't interesting ae at all.
It wasn't interesting for you?
No, sir.
Did you see Willie Montgcanery when he was hit?
I didn't know him.
You did not see the boy that was hit in front of Building 7OO
No, sir.
Didn't you see the boys carry him from Building 700 and put him
of Building 719?
No, sir, I didn't see that.
Do you know Johnnie Ceaser?
No, sir.
You have learned their names since you have been in the guard house?
CDNFIDENTIAL
..252
(BROWN)
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A Tea, sir, I know him when they call his name.
Q Do you know Henry Jupiter?
A Ho, sir.
Q You know him now?
A No, Blr, I don't know him. I didn't know anyliody "but Fletcher
Carter and Davis — I didn't know them until I went In the guard house.
Q You know Sergeant Theodore Davis?
A Yes, sir.
Q You know Sergeant Fletcher Carter?
A Yes, sir, I learned their n^kaee since I went to the stockade.
I didn't know anyone personally, Just one of the hoys ccMnlng from Chicago,
one of the compeoiles, his home is in Chicago and he came over to the
kitchen, he knew Herhert Thomas.
Q What time did this fight start on the night of August lli-th?
A I don't know.
Q Didn't you have a watch?
A Yes, sir, "but I didn't have it on.
Q Didn't you tell us once hefore at a previous hearing it started ^
about 10:20?
A Yes, sir.
Q Vfhy did you say 10:20 if you didn't have ydwr watch?
A I forgot I hroke the "band and I didn't have it on.
Q You were Just testifying— guessing at the time when you testified?
A Yes, sir.
Q Yet didn't you state definitely to Major Manchester you looked
at your watch and it was 10:20 when the fight started?
A Yes, sir.
Q That testimony you gave to Major Manchester was erroneous?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't look at your watch?
A No, sir.
Q Because you didn't have your watch on?
CONFIDENTIAL
(BEOWN)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^jl) ' ^^^ 3
By^NARA Date^P^I^/^Z
Reproduced at the Nalicnal Arctiiv
■rr^*l^-J»A-~
571
#CDNFIDENTiAL #
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A No, sir.
Q Is the testimony you are giving me now erroneous?
A No, sir.
Q You are definite you saw McDaniels in the harracks?
A Yes, sir,
Q Corporal McDaniels has testified hefore me under oath that from
9:50 on the night of August llt-th, 19Ulf until after 12 o'clock on that
same night he remained in Building 7OO peeling potatoes?
A In the kitchen?
Q In the kitchen.
A No, sir, it wasn't him.
Q That is what he testified under oath.
A No, sir, "because I left the kitchen at 10:05 and he wasn't
peeling potatoes then and he wasn't peeling none when he was in the
harracks. He said the first sergeant must he scared to let them out.
Q Why was it you didn't have your watch?
A It was hroken.
Q How was it hroken?
A One of the links coming through,
out of line that was coming through.
I pulled one of the fellows
Q Why?
A Because he came in the front door.
Q That was that night?
A That evening.
Q At mess?
A Yes, sir.
Q You pulled him out of line?
A Yes, sir.
Q And put him at the "back of the line?
A Yes, sir.
Q You "broke your watch then?
A Yes, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
^.254
(BROWN)
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DECLASSIFIED
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#&@372
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45
Did you lose a Betting out of your ring that night?
Yes, sir.
Where did the sitting fall out?
I was sitting on my bunk.
Did you find It?
It was Just an eagle.
Did you lose it Inside the room?
I didn't loi9lE for It.
Did you hear it fall?
Yes, sir.
You didn't look for it?
No, sir.
You say it was an eagle?
It was an eagle.
Still you didn't look for It?
No, sir.
You didn't lose it at that fight, did you?
No, sir,' "because I ain't down there.
Do you know Sergeant Oran Lee?
Yes, sir.
Did you see him the night of the fight?
I seen him "before the fight.
Did he have an MP stick?
I seen him in the kitchen.
Was he in the kitchen?
Yes, sir.
When you left him in the kitchen, did you see him any more?
No, sir.
Did you see Sergeant McGlnnis?
No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1255
(BEOWN)
*i
DECLASSIFIED
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Does Sergeant Qran Lee live In the sane liarraclcs with you?
I don't know, sir, I think he does stay downstairs.
Doesn't Sergeant McGlnnls live In the seone harracks?
Yes, sir, down stairs.
Did 70U see Sergeant McGlnnls that nlglit.
No, sir, I don't know McGlnnls.
Q NoK, the part of your story that you hare previously told me
that you want to change Is that you did not lie In your "bed all during
the evening, "but raised up and looked out the window?
A Yes, sir.
Q
street?
A
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You looked out the window and saw some 'boys walking hy the
Two of them.
You don't know who they were?
No, sir.
Did you see whether they had cluts In their hands or not?
No, sir.
Which window did you look out of when you raised up?
The one on this side of the "barracks.
The one on the side next to Building 719?
Yes, sir.
Q You looked out the right side of the "building or the side nearest
Building 721?
A Yes, sir, down here.
Q And you saw these men walking down Virginia Avenue somewhere
"between 721 and 720; Is that right.
A On this side of the street.
Q What side of the road, next to Building 701?
A Yes, sir, along "by the conmilssary.
Q You couldn't tell whether they had clubs or not?
A Ho, sir.
Q Were they walking or mnnlng?
Ir^
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Walking.
Did you Be© any other people vhen you looked out?
No, sir.
You didn't see anyone down there?
No, Blr.
That iB all you saw that night?
Yes, sir, that Is all I saw.
Do you hare anything else you want to testify ahout at this
Ho, sir
CONFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of Enzio Antonelll, taken at Seattle,
Washington on 50 September 19^1* "by Lieut. Colonel
Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Pvt. Canio Mecca, 28th Quartermaster Service Company
was sworn as English^Italian interpreter.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2Uth
Article of War?
A No, sir.
(2i»-th Article of War read and explained to witness)
Q After you returned to your harracks on the night of August iHh,
19^, did you find a shovel in your harracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you find the shovel?
A Inside my harracks, in 708.
Q Did the spade have a cover on it?
A No, sir. Just like that.
Q I hand you a spade and ask you if the spade you found in Barracks
708 on the night of August iHh, V^h\ is like this shovel?
A Practically the same.
Q Can you identify this as the shovel you found that night?
A No, sir, I cannot swear it is the same, it is very similar,
Q It looks like the same shovel?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do with the shovel after you found it in the harracks
on the night of August iHh?
A I kept this next to my "bed on the side in Barracks 708.
Q Was the shovel which you found in Barracks 708 on the night of
August lUth, V^'h\ later taken from you?
A Yes, sir.
CaNFlDENTIAL
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1 Q Do you know the American soldier that took it from you?
z A I don't remember.
3
4 Q You turned the shovel over to him?
5 A He took it, he said, "Give it to me." '.
7i Q And you gave it to him?
8| A Yes, sir, I think it was an American soldier.
91
lOj Q He took it from you?
Hi A Yes, sir.
13' Q Is there anything else you can tell us whether I have asked
1*'* you or not?
'5 A No, sir.
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CONFIDENTIAL
\ Testimony of T/5 Willie Prevost, Sr., taken at
2 Seattle, Washingtoa on 50 September V^W by Lieut.
3 Colonel C\irtis L. WllliamB, littD.
4
5
6 The witness was sworn.
8
9 Q State your name, serial number, and organization.
10 -A T/5 Willie Prerost, Sr., 585*^7289, 650th Port Company
1 ! Fort Lawton, Washington.
12
13 Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2Uth
14 Article of War?
15 A No, sir.
16
17 (2Uth Article of War read and explained to the witness)
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20 Q On the night of August lUth, 19^U, were you otxt at Fort Lawton
21 when the fight happened between the colored soldiers and the Italian
22 soldiers?
23 A Yes, sir.
24
25 Q What was the first thing you heard about the fight?
2tt A The first I heard about the fight was when Sergeant Thomas came
27 and told our first sergeant.
28
29 Q What building were you in when Sergeant Thomas told the first
30 sergeant about it?
31 A Headquarters, sir.
Q Which building is it?
A I was in the 650th Headquarters Barracks.
3o Q Building 665?
37 A I don't remember.
36
3:? • Q When you heard Sergeant Thomas call the first sergeant about the
■^'' fight, you went outside the building?
-*' A Yes, sir.
-- Q What did he say?
'■■'' A fie said there was a riot going on down in the area.
45
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1; Q What else did he say was happening?
2 A That is all I heard.
3
4 Q Could you hear noise going on down that way?
5 A Yes, sir.
6i
7; Q You left Building 665 and went to the area?
8! A Yes, sir.
9,
loj Q V/here did you first get your cluh?
ir A I didn't have a club.
12
13: Q A knife?
14 A No, sir, I never had a knife.
15
Kj q What did you have?
17! A A half inch hoard.
19 Q Three or four feet long?
20 A Yes, sir.
21
22 Q Where did you pick that hoard up?
23 A I don't rememher where I picked it up, I picked it up going into
24 the area.
23
26 Q Did you go to the mess hall first or did you go straight into the
27 Italian Area?
28 A I went on into the area,
29
30 Q Right straight into the Italian Area?
31 A Yes, sir.
32
33 Q You didn't stop hy the mess hall?
34 A No, sir.
35
36 Q Had the hoys gone to the area when you got there?
37 A Yes, sir, a hunch of fellows were down there.
33
39 Q Where did you first arrive, along this road?
40 A Well, I went from the building down on the side road up to
the orderly room.
Q Before you got to the orderly room did you see some colored
soldiers going up and down this road?
A No, sir.
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Q Did you see any "boys you knew after you left the "building until
you got to the orderly room?
A No, sir, I didn't know any of them.
Q Did any of them go with you when you left 665?
A No, sir.
Q Not a single on© went with you?
A No, sir.
Q And a "bunch had gotten there already?
A I imagine there was "because there was a hunch in that area.
Q Would you say you saw any of the 65l8t that was down there?
A No, sir, I don't know any of the 651st.
Q How ahout the 578th.
A I don't know any of them.
Q You have learned them since that time?
A I don't know any of them, only two I know since I have heen in
the stockade.
Q Do you know Willie Basden?
A He is in the 650th.
Q You know him pretty well?
A Yes, sir.
Q You saw him?
A I didn't see him.
Q After you got down to Building 715, the orderly room, who was the
first man you saw?
A Bohert Sanders was In a Jeep.
Q What was he doing when you first saw him?
A Driving the Jeep Into a little "building on the left-hand side.
Q A tent?
A Possibly it was a tent, I couldn't tell.
Q He was running the Jeep into the building?
A Yes, sir.
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Q And he knocked the tent down?
A I didn't pay any attention, I walked into the "building.
Q Who else on the outside did you see "besides Eohert?
A Emanuel Ford.
Q What was he doing?
A That is the time he was coming from the area.
Q Did Emanuel have a club at the time you saw him?
A I didn't see him with any.
Q Did you talk to him?
A No, sir.
Q You then went into the orderly room?
A Yes, sir, I went in the orderly room.
Q Now, this is a floor plan of the orderly room which I show you.
You recognize this is the side door and here is where you saw the Jeep
running into the tent--
A As I was going in it sit to the left.
Q When you came up to the door, there were a lot of men around
the door, weren't there?
A Yes, sir, hut I didn't recognize any of them.
Q, Weren't there a lot around the window that was "broken out that goes
into the little room in the comer of the "building. Room Y?
A I can't tell exactly, there was a lot in that area.
Q Around the door did you see anyone that you recognized besides
Senders who was in the Jeep?
A There was Wallace Woodin.
Q He was standing around at Door E?
A Around at the door on the left, and David Walton.
Q Walton and Woodin were standing at Door E?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Woodin have in his hand?
A I didn't see him with anything, he possibly had scsnethlng but
Ididn't see him with anything.
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Q Nearly all the "boys had something that night, didn't they?
A I couldn't see In the dark, I didn't recognize so many of these
"boys.
Q Wallace had a stick?
A I couldn't say.
Q Who else did you see while you were getting ready to go in?
A In the orderly room?
Q While you were getting ready to go in the orderly room?
A I didn't see anyone going in, I can't remember.
Q You went in the 'building and when you went in through Door.A^ who
was the first man you saw?
A I don't remember seeing anyone in the orderly room outside of
those two. I do rememter a fellow chopping the door down.
Q What was his name?
A I don't know who he was. I don't know whether I went down after
the door was knocked down, that is when Plnckney, the MP, walked up.
Q Was the door knocked down?
A Yes, sir.
Q They were hattering on the door trying to get it down?
A Yes, sir. There was one man with an ax.
Q What kind of an ax, a dou'ble fitted ax?
A With a red handle on it, about that long.
Q With a red handle?
A Yes, sir.
Q A dou'ble "bitted ax?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you identify the ax if you saw it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they finally knocked the door down?
A Yes, sir.
Q When the door was knocked down a 'bunch came in the door?
A In the orderly room.
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, Q Were you around this door or "behind this door while It was "being
2 chopped?
3 A The door was facing like this and he had his "back to me, the
fellow chopping on the door, and I was standing ahout here, I was
5 in the orderly room and after the door was knocked down there wasn't
6 any light in the room at that time.
7
8' Q But the light in this room was shining out when they were knocking
0| the door down?
,qI a I didn't see anyone in thiis room after the door was knocked down.
11
,2 Q The fellow that knocked the door down, did he run?
,3 A No, sir, he went in to the orderly room I guess.
14
15 Q Who was the fellow with the ax?
I don't know who the fellow was.
a
Q It wasn't Ro"bert Mathis?
A I couldn't say "because I don't know who it was.
Q I show you an ax and ask you if this is the ax you saw the
22 colored soldier using on the night of August lUth to chop down the
23 orderly room door to Building 715?
2J A Yes, sir.
?5
26 Q It is?
27 A Yes, sir.
26
IS Q And do you know the man who used that ax to chop the door down?
30 A No, sir.
31
32 Q Have you seen him since that time?
33 A No, sir, I don't know his name.
35 Q You saw his face, didn't you?
36 A No, sir. If I saw his face I am sure I could recall his name.
37
33 Q Do you know where this soldier who used the six to chop the door
39 down went after he knocked the door down?
JO A No, sir.
42 Q Did you see what he did with the ax?
43 A No, sir, I didn't.
43 Q Who else did you see in the "building you recognized while you were
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V there?
2' A I don't remember seeing anyone "but Wallace Woodin and Walton.
3
4 Q Do you know James Chandler?
5 A Yes, sir.
5:
7, Q Did you see him?
8, A No, sir.
9i
10' Q Do you know Henry Jupiter?
11 A Yes, sir, I know him.
12
13 Q Did you see Henry in there?
I'i A No, sir.
15
16 Q Do you know Roy Montgomery?
17 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Did you see Roy there?
20 A I didn't see him in there.
2i
22 Q William G, Jones?
23 A Yes, sir, I know' Mmi •-
24
25 Q He was there, wasn't he?
26 A I didn't see him.
27
28 Q Do you know Johnnie Ceaser?
29 A I know him.
30
31 Q Did you see him?
32 A I didn't see him.
33
-i4 Q Do you know Willie Ellis?
35 A No, sir.
36
37 Q Did you see Willie Ellis there?
A No, sir.
■lij Q Did you see John Lee Hamilton?
4! A I didn't see him.
Q Do you know Jefferson D. Green?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q Did you see Addison George in there?
A I didn't see him.
Q Joe Trice?
A No, sir.
Q Arthur Williams?
A I didn't see him.
Q Booker Townsell?
A No, sir.
Q Booker Thornton?
A I didn't see him at the time I was in the orderly rocan, that
is all I seen in there.
Q You know Thomas Battle, don't you?
A No, sir.
Q Willie Curry?
A No, sir.
4 Those were the only two you saw in there?
A The only two that was in there at the time I was in there.
Q You saw some American soldiers in there?
A No, sir, I dldnft see any soldiers. Italian or American.
Q No Italians?
A No, sir,
Q And noAmericans?
A I don't rememter seeing any.
Q Did you see any colored soldiers "beating individuals inside that
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear any American soldiers being heat by the colored
room?
soldiers?
A No, sir.
Q Do you mean you were standing in that room and didn't hear the
heating going on in Boom Y?
A I didn't hear anybody beating anybody in the next room.
CDNFiDENTiAL
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Q Did 70U hear people hollering?
A It was dark, I couldn't see anjtbody.
Q It was dark In this room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you stand In that door there?
A No, sir.
Q Who else did you see In there you knew?
That is all I remember seeing to tell the truth.
A
Q
On the night of August lUth, 19^1*- while you were watching the
door helng ch6pped down, you saw Robert Mathls standing in Door D, didn't
you?
A I couldn't say it was Rohert, I don't know.
Q You thought it was Eohert?
A It was a fellow around his size,
Q He looked like Fohert from where you were standing?
A He was a slender fellow on the build of him, hut actually I don't
know.
Q From your position you saw the man chopping on the door and you
"believed it was Robert Mathls?
A I wouldn't say that, I didn't see his face.
Q When you came on the outside of the orderly room, who did you see
out there you recognized?
A I don't remember seeing anyone I recognized. Plnckney and the
of ther fellow came up and he told the boys to go back to their barracks,
that is when I saw those boys In the area.
Q When you left the orderly room Plnckney, the acting MP, was there?
A Yes, sir, and Emanuel Ford.
Q What was he doing when you saw him?
A They were all coming back.
Q He was still in the Italian Area, Just leaving?
A Yes, sir, we left.
Q Emanual and you left together?
A I don't remember walking with him.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q Did he stillhave his stick?
A I didn't see it.
Q Had you laid down your stick or did you still have it?
A No, sir, I threw it down "before I came out of the area.
Q You still had it when you came out of Building 715 when you saw
Pinckney?
A I didn't have no stick in the orderly room.
Q Where did you leave your stick?
A I left the stick across in front of the orderly room coming hack
out of the area.
Q As you were coming out of the area you threw your stick down and
didn't have it any more?
A No, sir, not after I left the area.
Q Did you go "back to your "barracks after you left the Italian Area?
A Well, I came across in front of Building 719 and stood there
awhile.
Q As you stood in front of Barracks 719 did you see any other
"boys coming out of the Italian Area?
A I Just stood there and they had a "bunch standing in the road
and that is the time the ambulance was coming,
Q When you saw them standing in front of 719, wlio else did you see
you reconglzed?
A I saw Sergeant Auhry, he was the first sergeant trying to get
the hoys in .the harracks.
Q Did you see the MP's talking to any of the colored soldiers?
A No, sir, I dlcWt stay there very long.
Q Did you see the MP's coiaa ai) '^n^ park their cars In front of
Barracks 719?
A Well, there was one car that parked there, I think one jeep
came up and he left and went back and got more MP's, he didn't stay there.
Q, Where did you go after you left the vicinity of Barracks 719?
A Back to the ■barracka.
Q Back to Barracks 665?
A I don't knov exactly the numher, hut it is the 650th.
CDNFlDENTiAL
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But in the 600 Area?
Yea, sir.
When you got there did you go inside your harracka?
Yes, sir.
When you got in there did you see anyone in there you knew? >v
Yes, sir.
Were those boys talking about the fight that night?
No, air.
Didn't you heeir anyone discussing the fight after they were in their
Ho, sir. When I came back Sergeant Duvall and Sergant Senders
Was Sei'geant Duval.T down In the fight?
I didn't see him, he was there in bed when I came back.
Was Johnnie Senders in the fight?
I didn't see him.
Who «lfle came back after you did?
David Walton.
Where did you see David at the fight?
I saw him in the orderly room.
After you saw David in the orderly room, you didn't see him until
you saw him l.u the ban*acks?
Yes, sir.
What did he bave in his hand when he was in the orderly room?
Nothing, but when T came back to the barracks he had a knife in his
Did he say he used the knJfe on the boys?
Se didn't say.
Did you see him use the knife while you were there?
No, sir.
Who else came back to the barracks after you- .got there?
I don't remember who else, I don't remember who else came *n.
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DECLASSIFIED
V. ^
;/• -■ ■
By^NAR.\ Diit//^^^^
891
CnNFIDENTIAL •
Does Hughes live in the "barracks with you?
Yes, air.
Who are some of the "boys that live in the "barraclrs?
Walter Wafter was still in the 'barracks when I got back there.
Who else?
I saw Johnnie Sanders and Sergeant Auhry and Jack Mack.
Sergeant Mack?
Pfc. Jack Mack.
You saw him in the Italian Area?
No, sir.
He talked about being there?
No, sir.
Who else did you see that came back In the bai-racks?
I couldn't say they came back, I don't remember them saying
Are there anj' others that came back after you arrived?
Not that I i*emember.
Since that day, since you have been In the gxiard house, who
27 have you discussed this fight with?
28 A I haven't discussed it with anybody.
29
30 Q Have you heard It discussed with anj'body?
31 A No, sir, I don't, if I had I would let you taow.
32
33 Q Have you heard anj- of the colored boys in the guard house discuss
34 their part In It?
35 A No, sir. After they put them in the stockade T didn't hear
36 any more about it.
37
3S Q You saw Wallace VJoodin and Walton standing behind whoever the man
39 was chopping on the door?
-W A Yes, sir.
41
■*' Q When the door fel] in, what did Wallace and Walton do?
"'' A Neither oae went ineide when I was there.
■^^ Q As you stcod there did you see Walton and V/allace either gc in
1'
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anj' thing.
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Q.
CDNFIDENTIAL
_r.7'^ (PREVOST)
DECLASSIFIED
^ _^ I ■' : Authority .Z5S2;i^-^_-—-
''^'' By^NARADate//^^"
592
ii CDNFIDENTIAL •
1 In the room or out of the room?
2 A I went out of the room ahead of them.
3
4 Q You don't know whether they came out or went in the hullding?
5 A No, sir.
6!
7 Q You didn't see the man chopping the door or rather you didn't
8 see him after the door was chopped down?
9: A No, sir.
101
II
12
13
14
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16
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,9 Q Didn't you hear anything that sounded like guys hitting something?
20 A No, sir.
21
22 Q When you were standing in this room and they were chopping the
23 door down, you heard clubs hit on something inside the huilding?
24 A I don't rememher hearing nothing.
25
;6 Q Did you hear that American soldier telling someong he was an
27 American soldier and not to attack hlra?
28 A No, sir.
29
30 Q You didn't hear that?
A No, sir. I don't know anything else g.bout it .
Q Who else did you see there in the orderly room?
A That is all I seen when I was there.
Q Before the door was knocked down could you hear them further back
in this room hollering?
A No, sir, if I heard anybody hollering I would hare looked and
seen where they were hollering from. '
31
32
33
■3 .J
Q And you didn't hear the noise going on in the rest of the building
while that door was being chopped down?
35 A No, sir. That boy that was chopping on the door made a lot of
36 noise.
J/
38
Q You heard the boys hitting the Italians?
3-j A To tell the truth, I don't remember it.
4! Q When you vere lnside> the orderly room there was somebody throwing
4? rocks in the windows?
43 A They weren't throwing in the orderly room, there was a bunch of
4.) fellows out there.
CDNFIDENTIAL
,2 ,'b (FREVOST)
r;.
DECLASSinED
Authority 73S^kl-
By,^NARA Date//^
595
CDNFIDENTiAL •
, Q Eocks were pouring in that little room, 10 6r 15 rocke while you
2 were in the orderly room?
3 A Yes, sir, Tsut I didn't hear anyond in there.
4
5 Q When you came outside you saw some fellows standing at that
6 window?
7 A I don't know their identification, I couldn't identify them
8 "because it was dark.
9
10
1 1
12
Q There was at least 10 or 15 "boys right there throwing rocks
in the window and you saw at least five or six of them you knew.
A I didn't. Some of them were on the other side of the orderly
13 room.
\i
15 Q Did you see Willie Ellis?
16 A Willie Ellis said Luther Larkin "blew a whistle, him and Sergeant
17 Gresham, I don't know.
18
19 Q Willie Ellls--
20 A He said Larkin and Gresham, "but I don't knew to "be sure, that
21 is why I wouldn't want to say.
22
23 ^ Who did you see tesldes those you have named?
24 A I don't recall seeing any other fellows.
25
26 Q Is there anything else you would like to add to the testimony you
27 have given here today?
23 A No, sir.
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CDNFIDENTIAL
(PKEVOST) (EKD)
1276
39^
DECLASSIFIED
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By^NARA Date. '^^^Ol^l
CDNFIDENTIAL #
Reproduced at the National Arcti
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Teetimony of Pvt. Elva Shelton, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 50 September 19ltU ty
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The vltnese vas sworn.
Q State your name, organization and serial number.
A Private Elva Shelton, 376157*^7/ 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2Hh
Article of War?
A No, sir.
(2Uth Article of War read and explained to the witness)
Q On the night the colored soldiers and the Italian soldiers got
in trouble, were you present?
A I was in my "barracks.
Q What "barracks do you sleep in?
A 668.
Q And you were in your "barracks when the fight started?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the first thing you heard about the fight on the night
of August iHh, 19^^?
A Well, after I heard stout the fight It was the next monalng, but
T did hear a lot of amtulances or whatever they were going down in the
area.
Q Didn't you hear a lot of noise around there when the fight first
started, a lot of noise?
A I heard a noise, but what they were doing I didn't know, I had
an idea it was a fight, I didn't know.
Q What kind of a noise did you hear?
A A noise. Just a lot of voices.
Q Window glass "breaking and stuff like that?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1277
(SHELTON)
■v^
'^ -K,M'. ^^ik^ ■^.
Reproduced at the National Archiv
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_2X3_^:li_
By^NARA Date_£^(|2!^
595
^CDNFIDENTIAL ^
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Q You didn't hear the urocks being thrown against the "bulldlmrs?
A No, sir. ^
Q Did you hear screaming like a fellow was hurt.
A No, sir.
Q You recall you were in your "barracks and you heard this noise.
Did you get up?
A I was already up.
Q
A
Who else was in your harracks?
Quite a few were in the barracks.
Who?
Q
A I don't know who was in the barracks, I couldn't name them
except the sergeant, I know the sergeant was In the barracks.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
What was his name?
Thomas, Palmer, and Mack Shaw.
Were they all in their barracks at that time?
Yes, sir.
Did any of them leave during the fight?
I don't know whether they left during the fight, but I know
Thomas came and said for us all to stay there.
Q After the fight was over and after the noise stopped, a bunch
of boys came back?
A Yes, sir.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Who came in that you remember?
I don't remember who came in, all I know some came in.
Who were they?
I don't know.
You don't know who they were?
I don't know, I wasn't paying any attention, I couldn't name
them because I don't know.
Q After they came in what did they talk about?
A They didn't talk about anything because the sergeant made they
stop tadking.
CDNFIDENTIAL
^278
(SHELTON)
■m
Reproduced at me National Archn
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^3-^^^ >
Bv^3PnaRA Date '-^Q'^n/C'.
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CDNFIDENTIAL «*
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Q He didn't turn out the lights?
A No, sir, the OD did.
Q The "boys came in not long "before the OD came along?
A Yes, sir.
Q Ihey were all in there talking about it, weren't they?
A Yes, sir, they were tedking about it.
Q What were they talking about?
A I don't know, possibly the fight, I don't know what they said.
Q You heard them talking about the fight?
A Yes, sir, naturally.
Q What were they saying?
A I cannot repeat the statements.
Q Who were the guys talking about the fight?
A I don't know,
Q Since the night of the fight have you heard any of the boys
talking about the fight?
A No, sir.
Q While you have been in the guard house you have heard them talking
about it?
A No, sir, that is the one thing they don't talk about down there.
Q Youmean in the guard house they don't talk about this fight?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know Eoy Montgomery?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hear him talking about it?
A No, sir.
Q You haven't heard anybody talking about it?
A No, sir.
Q Did you go down to the fight?
A No, sir.
Q You stayed in your barracks?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1279
(shexton)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_27-2_S;2i___
Reproduced at the NaDonal Archi
, jflW«.M*»acifa^<^ ■>
597
^ CDNFJDENTiAL ^
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Q Do you know Eoy Daymond?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Roy that night?
A No, sir, he didn't live -with us.
Q Roy Daymond has testified that on the night of August iHh, I9IA
you were in the fight in the Italian Area in the vicinity of 715 with
a club and that he saw you down there?
A He testified to a lie, that is all.
Q You were identified "by an Italian by the name of Grossi as
the man whom he saw in the orderly room with a club?
AQ He testified to a lie because when he said I was in the room
with a club I wasn't and he told a lie too.
Q If Roy Daymond, whom you know, if he testified you were down there,
he testified to a lie?
A Yes, sir, he did.
Q Have you and Roy had any trouble?
A No, sir, we are good friends.
Q For a long time?
A Ever since I have known him.
Q He would have no reason to tell me that?
A No, sir.
Q He told the other boys he was down there?
A No, sir, he ain't told me nothing.
Q You have been identified by the Italians as being in the
orderly room and at the same time and at the same place Roy Daymond
testified you were down there and he saw you with a club in your hand.
A I raised my hand to tell the truth and I am going to tell the
truth.
Q That is your story, you didn't go down there, you remained
in the barracks while the fight was going on?
A Yea, sir, absolutely.
Q You heard the fight and you heard the noise and you didn't
go outside?
A I didn't leave the building at no time.
CDNFIDENTIAL
i2bU
(SHELTON)
r'-'
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ( J -^^^ ^
By^^NARA Date^fc^l^/OZ
Reproduced at the National Aid
ii<t I iwii i^'A
598
>l.V
CDNFIDENTIAL
* 1
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Q And you didn't talk to anyone after the fight, "but you heard
someone talking atout It and you don't know who that was?
A No, sir. Just a whold "bunch of men were talking about that and
I wasn't Interested much.
Q You were not Interested In what they said?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have anything else you would like to add to the testlmoqy
you have given today?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1281
(shelton) (end)
•.*..
m<
v^
i1^ ,: H ..
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4-1
DECLASSIFIED
: Authority _Z55^^^^
SeHMHMMNMHMMMINMMHHi
i 399
• confidential
1; Testimony of Booker Townsell, Private, taken
2 at Seattle, Washington on 50 September \^'i>k
3 "by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
4
5 • ■ .
Si The witness was sworn.
7!
8:
9j Q State your name, organization and serial number.
'0' A Booker Townsell, 568568I2, 650th Port Company, Fort Lawton,
11 Washington.
12i
'3^ Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2Uth
14 Article of War?
15 A Yes, sir.
16
'7 Q Where were you on the night of August li^th, 19lt-U when the
'•■^ fight happened?
'9 A I was at camp.
20
2- Q What barracks do you live In?
22 A 718.
23
2^ Q Were you in the barracks on the night this happened?
25 A Yes, sir.
26
27 Q What were you doing?
28 A In bed.
29
30 Q You were in bed?
3' A Yes, sir.
32
33 Q What awakened you?
^f A When I was awakened up, the Major, the OD or whoever it was was
3S trying to stop the racket made by the boys.
36
37 Q That was after the fight was over?
3^ A Yes, sir, I am sure the fight was over because they made them
put the light out.
Q Previous to that time what did you do?
A Well, I got off a detail, loading stuff on a train and when I
pot through I ate supper and taken a shower and packed my barracks bag
between 8:20 and 9 o'clock and went to bed.
CDNFIDENTIAL
l-2oZ (TOWNSELI.)
I
1
2
3
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4'-:
By^NARA Date/:^,^25'
1»00
• CDNFIDENTIAL #
Q About 9 o'clock? vv
A Between 8:50 and S, " ; '^
Q Did you go to sleep?
A Hot right off, I laid up and talked to a fellow.
Q Who was that? ' » '
A J. D. Horton.
Q Did you and J. S. Horton talk ahout any particular thing?
A No, sir, we didn't, only wondering how it would be at home,
we didn't know where we were going.
»;
Q You talked to J. D. Horton until you went to sleep?
A We talked ahout 5 or 10 minutes and I said I was going to
sleep hecause we had a long Journey and I dozed off to sleep.
Q Was there any crap game going on in the building?
A When I went to sleep?
Q Yes.
A No, sir, there wasn't at the time I laid down.
Q Did you later wake up?
A No, sir.
Q You slept straight through until the officer, the MP came in
the building after the fight?
A Yes, sir, I slept until he came upstairs. I am sure the fight
was over at that time, they came upstairs, the officer came in and a
sergeant and made them put the lights out.
Q Now, did you hear any noise while you were in bed and while
you were awake in front of the building?
A I was asleep.
Q Did you hear any noise?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear anybody come in the building and say for everybody
to go out to the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear anyone break the board fence in front of the building?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTiAL
2 ■•3 (TOWNSEli)
1K)1
v-i
DECLASSinED
Authority ^.552^^
By-^NAR-A. Date.
CDNFIDENTiAL •
I
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Q Did you hear Willie Montgomery cams Into the harracks?
A No, sir, he didn't live upstairs.
Q Where did he live?
A Downstairs, he didn't live upstairs.
Q You lived upstairs?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hear Luther Larkln come In and hlcwa whistle?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear the hoys as they left the vicinity of the mess
hall to go down In the Italian Area?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear rocks "being thrown against Building 7O8 and 7^9 In
the I I alien Area?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't hear anjrthiog from the time you went to sleep until
you were awakened hy the MP and the officer?
A No, air, I didn't hear anything until then.
Q After the fight was over and after the MP came in the barracks
and turned out the lights, did you hear any convereation?
A I heard a fellow, I don't know who it was, he came in after
everything was over and he said some yellow dogs lived in the heirracks
and they wouldn't get out and help. Who that was I don't know, he didn't
interest me hecause I didn't even get out to see, in fact, I didn't
try to see who he was.
Q Did you later that night hear someone talking about it?
A No, sir, I went back to sleep.
Q The next morning did you hear any conversation about it?
A No, sir, when I awakened it was reveille.
Ci Did you hear any conversation later?
A At Reveille Luther Larkin told the corapany cotamander he saw
some Italians, three of them and he run after ...him.
Q Did he say what he did when they ran after him?
A He said he run after the MP.
CONFIDENTIAL
■■A
(townsell)
DECLASSIFIED
Authority'
By^NAR-A Date/i£
lf02
• CDNFIDENTJAL
1 Q Did Luther say what he did after that?
2 A No, sir.
3
4 Q After you moved from Barracks 119, where did you go?
5 A To the stockede.
6
7, Q While you were In the stockade, did you hear anyone talking
ej ahout what #hey did?
9j A No, sir, no one talked ahout nothing they did.
11 Q Did any of the hoys saythey had heard one of the ItalJans had
1 2 teen hanged?
13 A Well, I heard that after I come down here.
14
15 Q Then at the time you were in the stockade you didn't know
16 one had heen hanged?
17 A I didn't know one had "been hung.
19 Q Since you have hsen in the stockade hare you heard the hoys
20 talking ah out the fight?
2! A Po, sir, all the hoys in the stockade claim they don't know
22 anything about it. I am very interested in straightening it up hecauee
23 I know I has no "business in there and several men I know in bed had
24 no hueineas there.
25
26 Q Who else was in ted that is now in the stockade that you know?
27 A There was J D. Horton upstairs and Milton 3ratton and Lee
28 Dixon, those men I know wasn't there.
29
30 Q Who that you know was down there?
31 A I can't say nohody I know, but I can say I know they wasn't.
32 I waked up and they was coming back, I don't know who that was.
33
34 Q You know some of them were down there and coming back after
3= you vore awakened?
36 A Yes, sir, I know one of the fellows.
37
33 Q Who was that?
3'^ A Booker Thornton.
40
^1 Q He came in?
4i A That is all I could say.
'^■^ Q Did you hear him?
•*5 A The only reason I know it was him, me and him is friends or supposed
CDNFlDENTiAL
(TOWNSELL)
, *.. .- v,.'
403
• CDNFIDENTiAL
DECLASSIFIED
A uthorih' ^^5^^ "^
1
2
3
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5
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to te, and that is the only reason I know.
Q Did Booker say what he did?
A He didn't say he had heen there.
Q What time was the fight over?
A I couldn't say what time it was.
Q Do you know ahout what time?
A Just to my estimation of the tirre the OD came up, it was
around 12 o'clock, that is my estimation of it.
Q Did you hare a watch?
A No, sir.
Q You Just estimate it was ahout 12 o'clock when the OD came
A That is what I would say, that is what time I would estimate.
Q What time was it you went to sleep, an estimate?
A Around between 8:50 and 9.
0, You slept from then until 15?
A Until they came up. I couldn't say it was 12 because I don't know
up J
that is my guess.
Q Do you and Booker Thornton look quite a hit alike?
A No, sir, because he is older, and larger than T am.
Q Hare you ever talked to Booker Thornton about the fight?
A No, air, I haven't talked about it because we have been mostly
separated after we had been put in the stockade.
i Do you know Alvin Clark?
A Yes, sir.
19l^U?
Q
A
Q
Q
A
Did you see Alvin on the night of August ll^th, 19J<-U?
No, sir, T didn't see him, he don't live upstairs.
Did you see him outside the building on the night of August lUth,
I wasn't out there, I don't know, sir.
Do you know any Italian boys?
No, sir, I don't know one from another.
CDNFIDENTIAL
.^.vD
(TOWNSET.L)
36
:^8
4V
■■■ 4
DECLASSIHED
f';-' : Authority _2^5^2i^A_
By^^NARA Datey^
J^OJ^
• CDNFIDENTiAL
1 Q Have you ever seen atiy of them?
2_ A Out "by the 'barracks ©very day.
3:
4 Q Did you see any on the night of August iHh, 19l»J*?
5 A No, sir, "because I went to "bed at 8:50 or 9 o'clock.
7i Q Didn't you testify here once "before when an Italian soldier
8^ "by the nam© of Sergeant Todl identified you as "being the person
9! whom he saw In the orderly room on the night of August lUth, 19Ult-?
10 A He testified he saw me?
Ill
12 Q 'Weren't you present when this Sergeant Todl testified h© saw
1 3 you?
M A Yes, sir.
15
16 Q What do you say to that?
17, A I say he was lying.
18
19 Q What else do you say?
20 A I haven't been down there.
21
22 Q What else?
23 A I don't know what I said before, I know I didn't say I had
24 been there, I said he hadn't saw me down there.
26 Q Didn't you say when Sergeant Todl identified you, as follows:
27 "If I done something I would want to be convicted"?
25 A Yes, sir, I said that If I did something I will be convicted.
25 I have not said I would want to be convicted, I didn't say that.
30
3!
32
3 3
34
Q Didn't you also say if you went down there you would not have
gond down with your bare hands?
A Yes, sir.
Q What would you have taken?
A If I went down to fight I would have a stick or something, if
37 I had went down there.
;.) Q Didn't you kno^-r there was a light in the orderly room?
A I don't know because I hadn't been there.
Q There was a light in the orderly room.
4:: A Maybe there was a light shining out the door, I don't dispute
44 that .
45
CDNFIDENTIAL
^. ■■ -;< (townsell)
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Q Did you have a conrereation with Alvin Clark after the fight
was over wherein you told Alvin you had "beat up one of the fellows, iu
fac*, you had hit the first one inside here?
A No, sir. I got proof that I waanjt out of Tsed, several
fellows in the company can prove I wasn't out of ted.
Q Who are some of the fellows who will testify that you didn't
get out of "bed?
A Milton Bratton, Horton, Foster, Lee Dixon, they can testify
I didn't get out of hed, and Ernie Martin.
Q Willie Ellis, could he testify you weren't there?
A I don't know whether Villie was there or not.
Q Willie Ellis testified as follows: "I saw Booker Townsell
standing with a club in his hand next to Building 713."
A I l>eg your pardon, he made a mistake, he maybe talking about
Booker Thornton. Everyone knows I didn't move out of bed. He said he
saw ne down there?
Q . That is right.
A He is absolutely lying.
Q Why, would Willie Ellis have any reason to lie?
A That is exactly what I want to know, why would he?
Q I don't know, he testified that he saw Booker Townsell standing
out there and that was under oath.
A I will testify under oath that I haven't and I got witnesses
to prove that I haven't.
Q you want us to question J. D. Horton?
A Yes, sir.
Q And lee Dixon?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else?
A Bill Foster.
Q Where is he?
A With us.
Q Ernest Martin?
A Yes, sir, he is up there with us. Also Milton Bi'atton, he Is
/ _,
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(TOWNSELL)
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there with us.
Q Do you know that Lee Dixon was in the huilding eill the time
you were there?
A No, sir, he vent to "bed at the same time I did.
Q Was he in the "building at the same time the fight was going
on?
A I cannot say where he was, I didn't wake up until the
OD came up, but I do know I was asleep on this side ajad he was sleeping
on that side.
Q How do you know he was in the building when the fight was going on?
A I am talking about after I awakened up.
Q You want to use Lee Dixon was an alibi witness?
A No, sir, not as an alibi, I am telling the truth.
Q You want us to use Dixon to prove you were in the barracks while
the fight was going on?
A Yes, sir.
Q How can Lee Dixon prove you were in the barracks if you don't
know Lee was there?
A He was there when I went to bed and he was there when I got up.
I know he wouldn't go out and get in the fight and come back to bed.
Q Do you know that Lee Dixon has admitted he was there and he
has been identified as one being in the fight?
A No, sir, I don't think Lee Dixon would lie on himself, maybe he
was there.
Q Is there anything else you would like to add to the testimony
you have given in this case?
A No, air.
CONFIDENTIAL
(TOWNSEIi) (END)
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Testimony of T/5 Addison George, taken at
Seattle, Washington on 5° September 19'*!^ "by
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your name, organization, and serial numTser.
A t/5 Addison George, 385l»-5855, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the Skth
Article of War?
A Yes, air.
Q On the night of August ll^th, 19^1+, you were with Willie Montgomery
and Luther Larkin over at the mess hall?
A Yes, air.
Q Who did you see around the mess hall?
A Around the meas hall?
Q Yes.
A Everyone was in the mess hall et the time.
Q Who did you see you knew?
A Luther Larkin, Roy Daymond, Jones, Montgomery and
Frank Hughes.
Q Jupiter?
A No, sir, I didn't see him at the mess hall.
A Sims?
A T didn't see him.
Q John T,ee Hamilton?
A No, sir.
Q Booker Townsell?
A No, sir, I don't rememher.
Q You know Booker?
A' Yes, sir.
CDNFIDENTiAL
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1 There was a bunch of them in there, In other words, there was some from
2 the other companies in there too.
3
4 Q All drinking heer, dancing, and listening to the guitar?
5 A Yes, sir.
6
7 Q After you left the mess hall you left with Jones and Larkin
8 end who else?
9, At don't believe Larkin.
10
11 Q Who else did you leave with?
12 A Who was along-- Jones, Daymond, and some other "boys.
13
14 Q Was Wi]lie Montgomery with you?
15 A No, sir, we met up with him.
16
17 Q After you left the mess hall and met Willie, you saw Willie
18 start woard the Italian soldiers?
19 A No, air.
20
21 Q Where were you then?
22 A That was after they carae out of the mess hall, they came out of
22 the mess hall and went down the road then I goes across and I goes to the
24 bflrracka and they they went up the road, but what they did I don't know.
25
25 Q You went over to what barracks?
27 A I went over to the barracks from the mess hall, 719.
26
29 Q Where do you sleep in 719?
30 A Downstairs.
Q While you were in 719 did you see Booker Townsell?
3 A No, sir, I didn't.
35 Q Did you go upstairs at all that night?
36 A Yes, sir. We was upstairs, I went over to 719 then I went upstairs
37 and went to shooting dice.
3- Q You went to shooting dice about 10 o'clock?
-3 A Yes, sir.
42 Q Was it after they ran you out of the mess hall and closed it?
'^-^ A Yes, sir, that Is when it was.
44
45 Q It must have been about 11 o'clock, tliat is when the mess hall closed
CDNFIDENTIAL
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around 11 o'clock vrtien the party was over.
A I don't know what time It was closed.
Q But anyway you left when the mess hall closed and Sergeant Tanner
of the 578th told everyhodj' to leave, you went to 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q Aad when you got to 719 you got in a game? . - ; '
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was shooting craps with you?
A Me, and Willie Scott and Jackson.
Q Walter Jackson?
A Yes, sir.
Q While you were up in 719 did you see Booker Townsell up there?
A Not that I remetaber.
Q Did you anyone in "bed asleep?
A Well, there was some in bed. I didn't pay any attention to who
they were.
Q Do you know whether or not Booker was asleep?
A No, sir, I don't. I don't know whether he stayed in that barracks
or tho other barracks
Q How long did you stay up in the crap game?
A We stayed in the crap game a pretty good while.
Q An hour?
A It may have been longer than that. The crap game broke up
"between 11 and 12 o'clock as close as I can estimate. Iwasn't paying
any attention.
Q Vftiat broke the game up, this boy hollez'ing to corns outside?
A A boy came up and he said there was a f :lght.
Q Out in front of the building?
Q Who was that "boy?
A I didn't pay any attention.
Q Wasn't It Larkin?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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v A Larkins came up there first. It seemed like Larkias' voice to
2 IBB.
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4, Q Larkln came up and said the fight was going on?
5l A No, sir.
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7| Q What did he say?
8| A Ee asked aljout a whistle or something like that. I know there
9| was a voice, I don't know his voice.
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lli Q Ee asked for a whistle?
12! A Yea, sir. Wliether he got the whistle I don't know.
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14 Q Be went outside then?
15( A Yes, sir.
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171 Q Did you see anyone else come up other than the man who came up
U! and announced the fight was goimon and Larkin?
19 A No, sir.
20
21 Q Did you leave when he asked for the whistle?
22 A No, sir.
23
2d q Did you leave when the fight was going on downstairs?
25 A Not right then.
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27 Q You left later than that?
28 A Yes, sir.
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30 Q When you vent downstairs, who went with you?
3i A All of us.
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33 Q Everyljody went out?
34 n- Everybody .
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36 Q The whole game "broke up, everybody left?
3; A Yes, sir.
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39 Q Gome of the "boys In the upstaire of the barracks went out?
'jj A T don't know.
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42 Q Vftiy did you all go at oace?
43 A Why?
44
45 Q Yea, because there was a fight?
CaNFIDENTIAL
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A That is what mads us want to go.
Q When you got outside the "building what was happening?
A When I got outside the "building the "biggest "bunch was gone.
Q That had already gone in the Italian Ai-ea?
A Yes, sir.
Q "What were they doing around Building 700?
A They were jiost standing out there in front.
Q What were they doing?
A They were talking ahout the Italians that hit Montgomery , that
la what they were talking ahout when I came dcrastairs.
Q
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Who was in that group that was talking?
I didn't pay any attention.
Did you S'-9 Luther Larkln in the group at that time?
rjo, sir.
Did you see Eoy Daymond?
Ko, sir.
You saw a lot of people ther** you knew?
I saw lots I knew, "but I didn't pay any attention who they were
or nothltig like that.
Q What are the names of some of them?
AThat Is just it, I didn't pay any attention, I stood there a
little while and I didn't pay no attention, then I went across th© road
to the mess ha?J , this 719 mess hall and I stood up there awhile, 1 stood
around here at the coi-nei- of the mess hall like that end I went eroimd
on the corner ahout 1+ or 5 minutes.
Q While you stood there on the comer who did you see that you
knew?
A I couldn't sec, it was dark down there. I could see the people
moving but I am not sure vl;o they were.
A
}\
You were then atanl'ng l^ack of Building 7^0?
Yes, air, standincj a.t the corner.
Looking oovn in the Ital5an Area?
I stood there foui' or five minutes then I oa^«> "back.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(GSOPGE)
DECLASSinED
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1 Q Where?
2 A To 719-
3
-z^;-: 4 Q Aa you oame back up toward 719; did you see anyone?
5 A No, sir, I didn't.
' 6
7 Q (Jo ahead.
8; A Then I camfl on in barracks 719 end at that time the first
Sj eergeant was there and told me to go back in the barrftcks and I
~^ asked what was this about and he said, "You hush your lacuth and go
in the barrecka", and I went in and took off my clothes and went to
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'2 bed.
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1^ Q And went to sleep?
15 f^ No sir, I didn't go bo sleep at that time.
16
'-' q V.Ti&t did you do?
'8 A I went on the bed and I laid dowti awhile and Frank H'ighes,
^°- David Valton and Bobert Sanders, while I was by the bed I heard them
20 saying about how they hit one, they said, "I hit one", that is all they
21 were talking about iu the front of the 'barracks, in front of 719 .
22
23 Q Was that dowastairs or upstairs?
2'i A I was sleeping downstairs.
25
25 Q They were standing in front talking about how th'?i had hit these
27 fellows?
28 A Yes, sir.
29
32 Q Sanders, Frank Hughes and Dave Walton?
3' A Yes, sir.
32
3^ Q Did you hear Willie Ellis?
3-s A No, sir.
35
3S Q Did you heai' Booker Townsell talking at that time?
3-' A No, sir. The boys you called out didn't sleep down there.
3>;
3^ Qi Whera did theysleep?
"*'■ rt. I don't know.
41
'^'^ ^i Who else that slept downstairs was in the fight?
"^^ A Practically all the boys dovmstairs was in bed.
'^^ Q AIj- except those thi-ee you mentioned?
CDNFIDENTIAL
- Vi ! .
(OEOBGE)
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A Yes, sir.
Q Let's go "back to tlie place you stood behind Barracks 700.
Did you see man running to and from those buildings in the Italian
Area?
A I saw moving about.
Q Did soaje have clubs?
A I couldn't see any clubs.
Q Now, on the night of August ll+th, 19^^^, what part did you play
in the fight?
A Well, I am going to tell the truth, I wasn't down there, I am
innocent, but now and then some of the boys apeak about it. Just now
and then.
Q
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A.
Q
fight?
A
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What have you heard Montgcoiery se^l
No, sir, I haven't been ax'ound him.
Do you know Roy Daymond?'
Yes, sir.
You and Eoy are pretty good fi'iends?
Just about like anybody else.
I suppose you know Boy came in here and said you were in the
Well, he Just lied.
I suppose you know Robert Sanders said he saw you ut the fight?
He lied.
Q You admit being in back of one of the buildings. Don't you
admit going into the ai'ea?
A Ko, sir, that is rigixt.
Q What did you do when you Btood in back of the building?
A Just stood there.
Q Didn't you have a club when you stood there looking into the
Italian Area?
A no, air, because I wasn't going dcwn there.
Q If William G, Jcnee sayd that you told him that you and some
others struck about four of those Italians with a stick on the night of
CONFIDENTIAL
(GEORGE)
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August iHh, 1941v, what would you say to that? •; "
A He really lied.
Q If one of your friende said he saw you pdck up a stick in
Room Y, that is the little rocoi where the Captain stayed, and carry that
stick into that other room, what would you say to that?
A He lied, sir,
Q Why do you say he lied?
A I know he lied, I wasn't there.
Q You didn't go hear the orderly room?
A No, sir, I didn't go in that area.
Q You didn't even throw anything?
A No, sir.
Q, And you didn't hit anyhody?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't try to hit anyhody?
A No, sir.
Q Why did you go down there?
A I went there and looked.
Q Didn't you go down in back of Building 700 for the purpose of
hitting Italians?
A No, sir.
Q You Just went down to watch?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you didn't have the desire to go down there, you were afraid
somebody would hit you?
A I didn't have in my mind to go there, it was too dark to be
running around in there, some of them would knock you out.
Q But you wanted to go down there?
A I did, but I was a little too scared I reckon.
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CONFIDENTIAL
1297
(GEOEGS) (end)
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CDNFIDENTIAL
i" Testimony of Pvt. Wallace Woodla and T/5 Willi©
2' Prevost, takett at Seattle, Washington on JC Septemtdr
3 19kk "by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Wllliame, IGD.
4
5
6 The wltneseee were reminded they were still under oath and
?! of their rights as witnessee under the 2Hh Article of War.
9
10 Q Did you on the night of August iHh, 19^1* see Wallace Woodln
It in the Italian Area?
12 PREVOST: I seen him standing in the orderly room.
13!
14 Q On the night of August l4th, 19^4?
15 PREVOST: Yes, sir.
16
171 Q What did he have in his hand?
18 PREVOST: I didn't see anything.
19
20 Q Wallace, you have heard Willie's testimony. Do you have anything
21 to say to that?
22 WOODIH: Where did you see me? You know you didn't see m©
23 dovfu there.
24
25 PREVOST: You was standing in the orderly room.
25
27 WOODIH: You didn't see me, you know you didn't. Do you want to
28 get you a medal for It?
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30 PREVOST: No, I don't want no medal.
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Testimony of T/5 Lee A. Dixon, taken
at Seattle, Washington, on 2 OctoTaer 19^,
"by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, organization, station and
serial number.
A Lee A. Dixon, T/5, 57652060, 650th Port Company, Fort Lawton,
Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2l<-th Article of War?
A I don't Icnow very much about It.
Q I will explain it to you. (The 2l+th Article of War was read
to the witness) Do you understand that?
A Yes, I understand .
Q On the night of ih August IS^h, were you at Fort Lawton when
the colored soldiers attacked the 28th Italian Quartermaster Company?
A Yea .
A
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A
A
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A
Q
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Q
Q
A
Where were you when you first learned of the fight?
I was in bed.
What barracks do you sleep in?
719.
You were in your barracks when you first heard of the fight?
Yes.
Did you get up?
Yes.
Where did you go first?
I put my clothes on and went to the front door.
l-/ho did you see down there?
There were some boys In the street out there,
Wiat were they doing?
They were talking about the fight.
Did you see Willie D. Montgomery lying on the ground in front
CDNFIDENTIAL
(DIXOJI)
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of the building?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see a jeep come up and stop in front of Building 719
vhile you were standing in the doorway?
A No, sir.
Q When jou arrived down there then there was a large number of
colored soldiers, assembled over in front of the building and over across
the street by the mess hall, 700?
A Yes.
Q What were they doing?
A There was a bunch of them and they were saying something about
the boys fighting.
time?
A
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A
Q
A
Co'xLd you hear a lot of noise down in the Italian at that
Yes.
Did you hear yelling and screaming?
It seemed like there was a lot of racket down there.
What did you do then?
I discovered what it was all about and went back upstairs and
went to bed .
Q Did you see anyone standing over in the vicinity of 700 that
you recognized while outside of the building?
A I was on the outside of the building.
boys?
Q While you stood in the doorvmy did you see any of the colored
1
A No, it was dark and I couldn't tell.
Q How come you went back upstairs?
A Well, I don't want to be in it. I discovered what was happening
up there and I didn't want to be in it.
Q, Well, why didn't you want to be in it, all the rest seemed to
want to be in it?
A I never believed in anything like that and I wasn't used to it
and I didn't know what it was all about.
Q You went back upstairs and went to bed?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(DIXON)
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A Yes .
Q Did you take your clothes off? ; -
A Which you speaking of — when I went downstairs?
Q When you went hack upstairs?
A I piilled them off and went to "bed .
Q When the fight started you didn't have them on?
A No, sir, I was asleep.
Q When you went hack upstairs you took off your clothes and
went to hed?
A Yes.
Q Did you go to sleep?
A I didn't go right then.
Q It wasn't long after that that some of the hoys hegan to come
in after the fight.
Q There was some boys coming in and out of the barracks . I
didn't pay any attention.
Q Did you hear any of the boys coming into 719 and talking about
the fight?
A I didn't hear anything. They was just talking about the fight.
Q No one spoke to you about being in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q After you left Barracks 719 on the day following the fight
and went to the guardhouse, did you hear any further discussion?
A I never did until we got here to this other area and a
Lieutenant Kapitz was telling us about it.
Q What did Lieutenant Kspitz tell you about the fight?
A He was telling the whole crowd about the fight down there
and what happened .
Q Did he tell you that one man was hanged?
A Yes, he did.
Q What did he say was liable to happen?
A I don't know. I can't remember all that he said about it.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(DIXON)
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Q Now, were you later placed in the guardhouse with the remainder
of the boys in your Company and the 65l8t Company?
A Yes.
Q While in the stockade, did you hear anyone discussing their
part in the fight?
A Fo, sir.
Q Do you mean you have "been in the guardhouse all this time and
you haven't heard a single soul discuss the part they played in the fight?
A No, sir; I haven't.
Q Now, you know, Lee, that you have been identified hy an
Italian as heing in the Italian Area on the night of l^i- August 19^^?
A Well, he made a mistake; he never saw me.
Q Well, weren't you present at the time that he identified you
as being in the Italian Area?
A Yes, I was present.
Q Did you have a chance at that time to question him about his
identification?
A Well, I asked the man out there who q.ue8tioned us and he claimed
he saw rae, but didn't know what kind of clothes I had on.
Q IS there anything else that you want to tell me about this
fight?
A There is nothing I know about the fight myself other than it
was happening when I got up.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1302
(DIXON) (END)
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Further testimony of ifk Carl A. Johnson,
taken at Seattle, Washington, on 2 Octoter
I9I+4, by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was reminded that he was still
under oath and of his rights as a witness.
Q Sgt. Johnson, you are acquainted and familiar with the fight
which happened between the Italian Quartermaster Company and the Negro
soldiers on the night of Ik August 19M*-?
A Yes, sir.
Q Following the fight, on 15 August 19^-, you were asked to
make an investigation concerning that fight were you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you did make an investigation on the morning of 15 August?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did your duties as investigator require you to go into the
Italian /irea?
A Yss, sir.
Q While in the Italian Area did you make a search for weapons
and possible weapons that were used hy the colored soldiers against
the 28th Italian Quartermaster Company?
A Yes, sir.
Q While you were in Barracks 708, in the 28th Italian Quartermaster
Company, did you find a spade in that "barracks?
A No, sir; it was 709, I "believe.
Q V-Tiere did you find a spade in Barracks 709?
A It was on the south side of the Barracks 709, the hVa bed
from the Lavton Road door.
Q I hand you a spade that is marked "J-lll+5" and ask you if you
have ever seen that spade before?
A Yes, that is the spade that I found in Barracks 709.
Q Ivhat did you do with this spade after you found it?
I t((,y vi i.c "I'lie r-rovost Mar-shal's Office in Fort Lavton, and
locked it up in the basement.
Q Iiid you ascertain from the markings on the spade to vhom it
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(JOMSON)
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"belonged?
A Ko, sir. It was turned over to Major Manchester's office the
raorning after we had found It.
Q la there anything else concerning this weapon which you woiad
like to submit?
A We had an idea that these "boys had picked up some souvenirs
and got an Italian, soldier that spoke English and asked him if aaay of the
boys had any souvenirs and we went through all the "barracks and we got
into Barracks 709 and he made a speech to all the "boys and got them all
in the circle and asked if any"body had anything that had been used "by
the colored soldiers and the soldier that sleeps in this fourth bed went
behind his barracks bad and brought us this spade.
Q Did he tell you at the time where he had found It?
A He found it in Barracks 709- I went down there today and looked
over that Barracks and I am pretty sure it was 709. I was pretty sure it
was 709 "hecause 709 had a door torn off ajad that's what I was going on.
Q Sgt. Jol-mson, on the morning of I5 August 19^^* while you were
making an investigation in the Italian Quartermaster Area, did you find a
double-bitted ajce?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you find that exe?
A Inside the door of the 28th Quartermaster It&ljan orderly room.
Q I hand you an axe which ia marked "EVA" and I can't make out the otha
letters on it, which has a white handle with the upper portion of the handle
painted red and ask you is this the axe which you found in the orderly room
of the 2oth Italian Quartermaster Company on the morning of I5 August
I9I14?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is all.
CDNFIDENTIAL
L30f
(JOMSOIJ) (SKD)
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Testimony of T/5 Leslie T. Stewart, taken
at Seattle, Washington, on 2 October 19hk, by-
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization,
station and duty.
A Leslie T. Stewart, T/5, 58561225, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2i<-th
Article of War?
A I think I am.
Q Do you want me to explain them to you?
A If you don't mind.
Q All right. (The 2Uth Article of War was read to the witness)
Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of ik August 1941»- were you out at Fort Lawton?
A Yes, sir; I was.
Q What barracks do you sleep in?
A 719.
Q Were youin your barracks when the fight started?
A Yes, sir.
Q V/hat was the first thing that led youto believe there was a
fight going on outside?
A I heard a lot of noise and a little rumor. I heard this fighting.
Q Did you go downstairs then?
A I stayed on up there. A little while later I came on down. '
Q When you first got downstairs what did you see going on outside
of the building of 719?
A There was a lot of boys standing up in the street.
Q Arguing?
A They was Just looking on down the hill.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1305
(STEWABT)
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Q Was there fighting going on then when you first started looking?
A I coiild hear it.
Q Did you hear vdndove and lights "being broken?
A Yes .
Q Could you hear the people hollering?
A I heard some of our hoys hollering?
Q Italian boys hollering?
A I don't know who they were.
Q You could hear a lot of hollering?
A Yes .
Q Did you hear rocks being thrown against the building?
A Yes, I could hear a little. First of all, after I got down there,
I didn't hear too much noise. Most of it was in frong of the building.
Q That's when all these colored soldiers were gathered over in
front of the building, just across the street from your building?
A I don't know whether there was any over there.
Q Weren't they tearing down that fence, that little fence that
was along the building of 7OO?
A No, I don't see them. , ;
Q You remember that fence?
A Yes .
Q You didn't see them tearing it down?
A No, sir.
Q Was it torn down when yougot over there? -
A I didn't pay much attention to them.
Q After you listened to the fight going on down in the area,
then youwent down?
A Yes.
Q Where did you first get your club?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you take a club?
A N9, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
i.3oe
(STEWART)
DECLASSIFIED
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Q Which way did you go to the Italian Area after leaving Building
A Well, I went down the little street.
Q Did you go down this road here, the Lawton Eoad?
A Yes.
Q As you moved down Lawton Eoad towards the Italian Area who did
you see along the road that you knew?
A It was dark.
Q And wasn't there a hunch of people running down the road?
A No, sir; they wasn't running down there.
Q Who did yousee standing out in front of the huilding?
A It was pretty dark.
Q Well, you saw someone? You didn't walk out there in front of
the huilding, the light was shining here from the intersection and you
surely saw someone that you knew.
A There was nohody there.
Q You mean to tell me there was no street light in the front of
Building 718?
A There is one close to the PX.
Q There is one at the intersection of Virginia and Lawton Eoad .
You could see those people out there in front of that road.
A I don't know anybody that was down there.
Q You don't know anybody that was in the Italian Area?
A I don't know anybody. I seen those fellows hut I couldn't
recognize any of them. I didn't pay much attention to them.
Q You knew nearly everybody in your Company.
A I knew them but didn't pay any attention.
Q After you started down the Italian Area, where did you first
go into the Italian Area?
A Well, I went on down this road and down to the orderly room.
Q When you first got on the orderly room, what did you first see
happening?
A The MP's were helping those guys.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(stewaet)
..307
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Q The MP's hadn't arriveci when yougot there.
A When I got there the MP's were down there and they hcid stopped
and quieted them down. When I got in there I helped them pick those
fellows up.
Q Before you got to the area those fellows had arrived?
A Before I got to the area they had already gotten there. , '
Q They had already gotten there when you arrived?
A I didn't know they was down there, Tut they was .
Q Who was down there?
A There was a colored MP down there and he's in our Company.
Q What was hlBname?
A John Pinkney.
Q What was John doing when youfirst saw him dOvn there?
A e was hollering at those guys and making them go on.
Q Who was he hollering at?
A I don't know.
Q Was he hollering at you?
A No, he was standing up there in that other door.
Q You were inside of the building when John hollered at you?
A He didn't holler at me. He hollered at the other guys in the door.
Q Didn't he holler at the hoys outlsde of the htiildlng?
A There was only MP's there.
Q Weren't a hunch of men gathered around the plaxje on the outlsde?
A They was all standing out there ahout 20 or 50 feet from the
orderly room. It wasn't all that many standing out there.
A There were a lot of peqjLe down there, Leslie.
A Not when I got there.
Q Well, you met some when yougot down there?
A When I first got up euad went down there there was a lot of
them standing in the "barracks. Therwmsn't nohody going down there and
coming down there.. I wanted to go down there and see exactly what was
going on. When ^ got down there the colored MP stopped the fight.
CDNFIDENTIAL
.308
(STEWART)
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Q There was no one going down except yourself?
A If they had they was close to the mess hall there.
Q Then you got down there, the MP's had already arrived and
were running the hoys out?
A Not all the MP's.
Q I didn't say all the MP's. I say some of the hoys were running
the hoys out.
A The colored MP's were down there.
Q And he was making them leave?
A Yes.
Q And there weren't many when the colored MP arrived?-
A The colored MP was already down there.
Q There weren't very many when you got there?
A No, sir.
Q How many would you say were down there all together?
A I don't know.
Q 175?
A No, I don't know exactly how many were down there. When I
got there about 20 o» 30.
Q And out of that 20 or 50 who did you recognize?
A It was so dark down there I couldn't see.
Q You didn't see anyone you knew?
A No, sir.
Q Did yousee some of them close to Building 713?
A No.
Q None of them were close to that building?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see any of them running to and fro in the area?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't see any of them chasing Italians?
A No.
CDNFIDENTIAL
^309
(STEWART)
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Q You didn't see any Italians?
A Not until I got inside.
Q Who did you see inside?
A I saw men on the floor cut up and "bleeding. The sergeant said
I don't know — he was a fellow and he was sitting in the corner hurt.
Q He had been hit on the head?
A No, I think he was hit down here and under his arm. I helped
him get up and put him in the ambtilance when it came down.
Q He had "been cut in the groin and stahhed in the right shoulder?
A Yem, somewhere.
Q He was "bleeding pretty badly wasn't he?
A Yes .
Q Did yousee a teuLl American soldier that had "been hit on the
arm and on the head?
A No, not that I know of.
Q Did you see a bunch of Italians in this room Y while you
were in this building who were beaten up and lying on the floor?
A Yes.
Q And you saw a bunch of them in this corner that were beaten
up didn't you?
A They were laying all around the place.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
And this door had been chopped down?
Yes, I think it had been torn up.
And this door had been broken into hadn't it?
Which one is that?
That is the front door?
That is the one I think was chopped in and tore up.
45
And all these windows had been torn out and screens pulled
off hadn't they?
A I don't know. One of those rooms was knocked completely out
and one Italian was laying down in there.
Q And he had a window over his head?
A Well, I don't know if it was the sash or not, but his head
was sticking through one of the panes in the window.
CONFIDENTIAL
(STEWART)
1 ' n
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they?
Q And there were a "bunch of Italians lying under a desk weren't
Yes.
Q And this room Z, there were two Italians lying on the floor
weren't there?
A I don't know. I wouldn't say whether I seen any there or not.
Q Now, when youarrived there they were knocking the tent down
weren't they?
A It was already torn down when I got there.
Q Was there anyone in the jeep?
A I didn't see anybody in it when I got there.
Q But the tent had heen nocked down by the jeep?
A Well, I don't know what it was knocked it down hut it was down.
Q And the car that was sitting outside with the white sheet
over it, the lights had been broken out of it by people throwing rocks
through it?
A I didn't see any car.
Q You didn't see any car with a white sheet as a cover over it?
A No, sir.
Q Right next to the side door of the orderly room?
A I didn't recognize one if I seen it.
Q When you arrived down there was this hollering still going on
around the building?
A Well, the colored MP was hollering.
Q There wasn't any of the Italians hollering?
A They was groaning and hollering.
Q Were any of the colored soldiers still hollering beside the MP?
A They was cussing.
Q They were cussing the Italians?
A No, the colored MP.
Q They were cussing the MP?
A Yes.
CONFIDENTIAL
i.311
( STEWART)
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Q What were they saying about John, the MP?
A They was cussing him and calling him different names .
Q Because he had stopped the fight?
A I guess so.
Q Did you hear anyone in particular hollering at him?
A No, I just heard that throiigh a rumor.
Q Did you see anyone trying to hit John Pinkney?
A No, they didn't try to hit him.
Q They were still trying to hit the Italians though?
A They had stopped then. They were standing over there and
he wasn't close to them.
Q How long after you arrived there was it imtil additional MP's
arrived besides the ones that were with Pinkney?
A I don't know.
Q When you got ready to leave Barracks 719 you put on your
helmet didn't you?
A Yes.
Q Wliy did. you put your helmet on?
A If there was a fight down there I didn't want to get hit.
Q You expected to get hit didn't you?
A Yes, I was expecting I might get hit on the head or something ,
hut I wasn't too sure.
Q Were you going down to help "break up the fight?
A Yes, at the time I seen what ;ra.s going on.
Q You wanted to help to "break up the fight?
A Yes.
Q Did you make any effort to help break it up?
A By the time I got there the l<IP's had stopped it.
Q You stated when yoa got there there were 20 or 30 colored soldiers
standing close to Building 715 didnt you?
A They wasn't standing close to it.
Q Where were they standing?
CDNFIDENTIAL
•.312
(STEWART)
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A About 20 or 50 feet from it.
Q You didn't tell those people to move out did you?
A There was nothing for me to tell them after the MP's were there,
Q Of all this group that you saw down there, youdidn't recognize
a single man?
A No, sir, it was too dark.
Q You know, Stewart, that you have been identified by Sergeant
Grant N. Farr as being the man who was in the orderly room and while in
there had a knife in your hand and waved it in his presence?
A Wo, I didn't know that. When I got do^m there I never had
seen that sergeant.
Q Well, you know that Sergeant Farr did identify you as the man
who stood in the orderly room?
A Yes, and he said I had on a white shirt, but I never owned one.
Q You had white under clothing on didn't you?
A No — I had on white underclothing, but he was talking about
one of these little sleeveless shirts.
Q You didn't have on a T-shirt?
A No, I didn't.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1313
(STEWART) (EUD)
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Testimony of Pvt. Edward Sandere, taken
at Seattle, Weshington, on 2 October I9H,
"by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q Please state your full name, grade, serial number, organization,
station and duty.
A Edward Sanders, Private, 56780658, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2i4-th Article of War?
A No, not so much.
Q Do you want me to explain them to you?
A Yes.
Q All right, (the 2l<-th Article of V7ar was read to the witness)
Do you imderstand thst?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of Ik August 1?U4, were you out at Fort Lawton
when the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
'i^ In what "barracka do yousleep?
A 719.
Q What was the first incident that called your attention to the
fight that was going on outside on the night of Ik August?
A Well, the first incident was that some of the fellows "brought
a fellow in eixA said he was hurt .
Q Do you knoA/ who that man '/ras?
A He was laying out on the couch and I came over to see.
Q Was it Willie D. Montgomery?
A I think it is the little boy that they brought in. He was
little, but I can't recall his name.
Q Howling ':iad the fig"nt been going on v/hen they brought this
man in?
A Well, the fight had j'oat begion when they brought the boy in
and I had been writing a letter and I heard it out there and I stopped
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writing and got up and heard the whistle. .jl';
Q What did they do about the "boy they brought in?
A It is a little sofa laying in the aisle of the barracks and they
liad him on the couch and some of the boys were working, on him. He had
been hit in the head.
Q Was he bleeding?
A Yes.
Q Was he a heavy set soldier?
A Well, I seen him once down in the 650th Company, but I don't
remember his name. I can't recall his name.
Q You don't know whether it was Clark or Snow?
A I don't know whether it was Clark or Snow. I never seen Clark.
Q Then when you saw them lay him down you heard the whistle blow?
A Yes .
Q Outside?
A Outside.
Q You were inside when you heard it?
A That is riglit.
Q Did you go outside?
A Ko, sir. I was afraid to go outside. I was afraid I might
get hit oy some stray shot. I didn't go oat in the excitement at all.
Q What did you do?
A I went as far as the latrine. I went in there and v/asaed ay
hands -- I had some ink on it -- and took a drink of water and came on
back over and the fellows were talking and we had some arguments about)
the excitement.
Q V/ho were you arguing with about the excitement?
A A fellow by the name of Briscoe -- Pfc Briscoe and another boy.
Briscoe and Boatland. We had an argument about the excitement. So, all
I heard was a lot of fellows was getting hurt and a lot of the fellows
were getting their helmets.
0 Did you get yoiur helriet?
A No, dr.
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Q Did Briscoe?
A A lot of fellows was scrambling, but I can't recall their names
or who they are . I know they were running around .
Q Didn't somehody come in the building and as^- "everybody out"?
A I don't know whoit was blew the whistle, but somebody said
"everybody get their helmet."
Q Didn't somebody say "get your helmet and everybody out"?
A I don't recall who it was. He ran upstairs and hollered and
I didn't know who it was.
Q Did you see him come back down?
A A crowd of them come on downstairs.
Q And they went outside?
A Yes.
A
Who did you see going out?
I couldn't know them. It was excitement and some of the was
running back in and running out. I can't remember any of the fellows
I seen.
Q You remember a lot of those men that went out that night. You
knew those people quite well.
A I can't remember the fellows that was in it. It was such
exc itement .
Q
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Whether they were injured or not they went outside the building.
They was running. ■
Q Who were some of them that ran outside?
A I can't remember their names. I don't even know them. Some
of them were from different companies.
Q Well, they were in your barracks and everybodh was getting
ready to go to bed.
A Most everybody on ray floor was going to bed.
Q
A
Q
A lot of them that were on your floor ran down.
I don't think so.
Who lives on your floor?
I cen't call their names. We have nicknames.
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Q Give me the names .
A Australia Boatland and Gentry and Briscoe were there. He lives
in the next hed to me. Another toy he's in the 65l8t Company and I can't
recall his name. A lot of them was on my floor ^ hut up on the top floor
they had a new hunch of fellows that had "been transferred into the 6ii-0th
and I hardly know them because I hadn't heen friendly with them.
Q You knew a hunch of the older boys .
A I knew most of the fellows that was on my floor and they
were not in the excitement.
Q Do you know whether Herman Gentry was in the fight or not?
A No.
Q Are you sure Gentry didn't go outside?
A Yes, because Gentry was busy writing. He was sending a box
to his wife or somebody and we just got through talking and I kept telling
him and he kept asking me ";>/hy are you rfraid?" and he said, "These
fellows that don't go out now and defend themselves are the men that are
going to draw back and not help any of the boys overseas."
Q Did that make you feel bad?
A The Italians have never done anything to me and I don't want to
go out. I wouldn't want to go out on such a mission as that.
Q Who was it that said "the guys that don't go out and help now
are yellow and will drav/- back on the other side?"
A One of the boys who was arguing about that was the light boy --
I can't recall his name -- he's a heavy set boy and he's with the Company
now. He's a T/5.
Q Vfould you know his name if I call it?
A I might recall it.
Q Was Joseph L. Demartra the fellow that you heard say "the
fellows that didn't go out then and help the Company would be the boys
that would fall back when you went overseas?"
A Yes, that is the one. I said to him, "I don't go out on silly
missions such as that. I don't go out on those kind of missions and if it
was the case that the Company would call all the men out or call the sergeants
out together into something like that, I would be glad to go."
Q Wasn't the Company called out by some of the boys that night?
A No, air.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q The whistle was blown .
A No, Sgt. Aubry was quite busy trying to get papers straight.
Q Wasn't the whistle blown? •"',,.
A Yes, but nobody knows who blowed the whistle.
Q Don't you know that Luther Larkin blew the whistle?
A No, sir, I couldn't recall who blew it.
Q Didn't someone come in the building and say "everybody out?"
A I heard somebody nin up and get their helmet.
Q Was it Addison George?
A I couldn't say.
Q Is he a corporal?
A I think he is a corporsil.
Q If he had ordered you out, wouldn't you have gone out?
A I wouldn't go out unless the officers or first sergeant give
me orders to go out.
Q Well, then what happened after you went out of the building?
A I came back into the barracks. It was about 10:^5 o'clock and
usually they put the lights out around eleven o'clock and it was almost
time to put the lights out and we had to get in bed . I had my bed already
made up, all I had to do was get my clothes off and get to bed .
Q Did you take your clothes off?
A Yes. I didn't go right to sleep but I was laying in bed and
a whole lot of them was talking.
Q Wasn't there a bunch of them that came back from the fight
and got in their beds and stood around the bed and talked there?
A There was a bunch of them in the bed and a bunch gathered upstairs
but I didn't know who was in it or not. Some of them started to talk
and they said, "Well, you better keep that argument down because you don't
know who might be listening about what's going on" and that's all. A
couple of the MP ' a came in there trying to find out what happened . The
Mp stayed around talking but I never could hear.
Q After they left wasn't there a lot of talk that went on between
the members of the Company as to who was down in the fight?
A They started talking but they stopped because one of the sergeants
told them to quit talking about it because they might get into a lot of
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trouble about it if they were talking about it.
Q Who was that you heard talking at first about it?
A One of the little boys in there. I can't recall his name.
Q Would you know his name?
A He lives on the 2d floor.
Q Would you know his name if I called it?
A I might know his name.
Q What was his rank?
A Private, I think. He was talking about -- I don't know whether
he had anything to do with it because they was all talking about it.
Q Wiat did he say about it?
A Well, he was talking about fellows — one of the Italians hit
the boy and --
Q Who did he say he hit?
A He hit this boy-- the dark boy.
Q Snow?
A I think so. It would be bad if the boys didn't go out and help.
Q On the night of ik August 19l4-i|, after the fight, you heard
Walter Jackson talking to some of the boys?
A Yes .
Q What was Welter saying?
A He was saying that the fellows would be yellow -- they would be
yellow not to go out and help defend the boy that was hurt by some
Italian and nobody knew how the boy was hurt, whether he had been interfering
with the Italian or what happened. We had en argument and I said, "Listen,
this country is in war and those people have been captured and they have
been brought here as prisoners and I don't think it is right to go out on
such a foolish mission, to go out here and start any kind of trouble with
these people because they are not bothering us and if the boy was hurt it
would be best to find out in the morning about what it was all about."
Q What did Walter say about that?
A He said, "You are with those people", and they wanted to start
an argument with me and they wanted to jump on me and Briscoe told me to
cut the argument down and go to bed . I told him as far as I am concerned ■
I don't go on those kind of foolish missions.
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Q What did Walter say to that?
A The sergeant up hy his "bed told him to quit arguing and stopped
talking. I didn't like the vay it was going and I continued talking about
it and I said I wouldn't go out on anything like that. It would he "best
to find out what the hoy did or what's wrong.
Q Did you find out the next day what happened?
A Well, the next day, that morning early, the next morning on
the 15th, we was supposed to he shipped out. We was supposed to go down
to the casualty area. Well, we had to go down there to get our hreakfast
hut I overheard one of the sergeants in the latrine talking ahout the
excitement out there.
Q What sergeant was that?
A Sergeant — he's a staff sergeant in the 650th
^ Sgt. Spencer Martin?
A Yes.
Q What did you hear him sa.y ahout it?
A Sgt. Martin was talking to some of the hoys and be said, "That's
more serious than you thinks ahout that excitement that vent on last night.
It ia very serious because one of the Italians was hurt", and one of the
hoys asked him did he know who was in the excitement and he said he wasn't
down there hut he heard a lot ahout it snd it is very serious.
Q Who did he say was in it?
A He said that he heard that one of the first sergeants or staff
sergeants in the Italian outfit was hurt.
Q Who, of his hoys, did he say was in it?
A Well, Martin didn't mention anything ahout the names who v/as
down there, hut he seid if any of these hoys in the 650th was in that
excitement that there is going to he some trouble.
Q Did he say they better keep their mouth shut?
A No, but he said there was going to be some trouble if anj'body
come up about up.
Q Then, the renainder of the nigiit, after you had your argument,
with Welter Jackson concerning the fight, who else did you talk to that night'
A You mean that night?
Q
A
Yes.
Well,
had an argument across the room with a boy.
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Q What vas his name?
A He's a sick toy. I don't know him good because he hasn't teen
in the Company very long and he had his ears h\3rt and he wanted to get
on me about talking about these Italians.
Q Had he been dovm in the fight?
A N9, he hadn't been out. This boy is very sick.' He had some
kind of operation on his ears .
Q Is there anything else about the fight which you know that you
haven't told us?
A I don't think so, sir, unless that evening I went do^^m the PX
and got me some cigarettes and some writing paper and came back to the
barracks. I tried to get a pass to go to town.
Q You didn't hear them start anything about the fight before it
happened, did you?
A Only I know that the boys went down the PX during the afternoon
and they used to have a few glasses of beer.
Q
A
Q
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Had there been a bunch of them drinking that night?
Yes, singing and drinking.
Had there been any fjghting going on?
Mo, sir.
Ead you heard them saying £n;5'thing about Jumping on the Italians?
Wo, sir.
Q Esve you ever seen any fighting between the Italians and colored
soldiers before?
A No, because I met a couple Italians.
CDNFIDENTiAL
(SAIDERS) (EHD)
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1' Testimony of Pf c . Samuel Thomas, taken
2 at Seattle, Wtshlngton, on 2 October 19l(-4,
3^ "by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williajns, IGD.
4
5; The witness was sworn.
6j ' ■
7 Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization,
s! station.
si A Samuel Thomas, Pfc, 5689127U, 650th Port Company, Fort Lewton,
10' Washington.
u
12 Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2l»-th
13 Article of Ivsr?
14 A Not very much, sir.
15
16 Q I will read it to you. (The 2i»-th Article of V/ar was read to
17 the witness) Do you understand that?
18 A Yes, sir.
''5
20 ^ 'Z On the night of ih August 19^^, when this fight started "between
21 the Italians and colored toys were you in your ■barracks?
22 A Ko, I wasn't in the "barracks.
23
24 Q V/'here were you?
25 A I was with ay girl friend .
26
27 Q 'cfi-iere was she?
28 A She was out on the post.
29
30 Q I'/hat time did you leave here?
3' A Something around twelve o'clock or after.
32
33 Q I thought you said you were married?
34 A I ain sure.
35
36 Q But you r.ad another girl friend here?
37 A Yes, sir.
38
39 Q D-d you have her out to the post to a party or something?
40 A Just csine out to see me.
41
42 D
b.ie knew you ves getting ready to go?
Yes, sir.
*S Q What is her naae?
43 A Ye3, sir
44
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A I got her name here. I can't think of her last name. I had
just met her. That is her name, sir. (Showing paper to investigating
officer) Ona Gardner.
Q She lived here in town?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were with Ona Gardner on the night of 1^ Axigust?
A Yes, sir.
Q Ibat time did you take Ona home or to the bus?
A She was in a car.
Q She had her own car?
A Another girl was with her that had a car. It was after twelve
sir.
Q After twelve?
A Yes, air.
Q You weren't supposed to have them out after eleven v;ere you?
A No, sir,
Q Why did you. keep her out after eleven?
A I don't know what time it was. The MP told me that I had ber
out there too late.
Q Whet did he say he was going to do to you?
A EC- didn't say he was going to do nothing.
Q Ee didn't try to arrest you?
A No, sir.
Q You sent them out of the camp?
A Yes, I vent to the east gate.
Q And they went off?
A Yes.
Q Eave you seen her since that date?
A No, sir.
Q Eive you talked to her?
A No, sir.
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Q What did you do after you took her to the east gate? >; .
A Came to ted, sir.
Q When you came "back the hoys weren't in hed were they?
A No, sir.
Q They were missing in the harracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q The lights vere off?
A Yes, sir. . . =
Q After you got back did you go to sleep?
A Yes, sir.
0, Was there any one csjne in?
A No, sir, not at time.
Q There vasn't ajiy noise on the outside of the "barracks?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you hear any noise going on in the Italian -"rea?
A No, sir. I lived on the hill and X couldn't heex the noise.
Q You couldn't hear it from Barracks 665?
A No, sir.
Q You learned later it was going on — about the time you got in?
A No, s'.r.
Q What time did you learn about the fight?
A About 8:50 or nine o'clock.
Q You must have heard someone talking about it?
A The next morning.
Q Who did you hear?
A I Just heard the rumor of it.
Q >/ho gave the rumor?
A I seen the MP's in the hill and I asked.
Q Who did you ask?
A Veil, there vas no certain one. I Just asked anybody that
was talking about It.
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f"^-:\ l| Q Did someone tell you al)out it?
^'..' 2| A People were talking?
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4; Q Who were the hoyB?
5I A I don't know any hy name.
6!
7| Q You knew all the men in your Company didn't you?
1 . 8i A Ko, sir.
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lol Q But you didn't know the hoys who were talking?
ni A No, air.
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13 Q Were these hoys of your own Company?
14 A They were Just hoys talking.
15
16 Q You know the names?
17 A No, sir, I don't.
IB
!9 Q What were they saying?
20 A They said some of the hoys had a fight.
21
22 Q Did they say what they done?
23 A No, sir.
24
25 Q Did they say one man had been hanged?
26 A No, sir.
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28 Q You never heard themuBntion that?
29 A No, sir.
30
31 Q Since you have heen in the guardhouse, have you heard any
32 talk about it?
33 A The boys come down here, sir.
34
33 Q What did they say?
36 A Well, naturally, when any come down they tell us what was said.
37
38 Q And what do they say?
39 A They says they asked me this and that.
40
41 Q Did they say that they told who was downthere?
42 A No, sir.
43
44 Q You were present were you not when there was a line up held
45 of all colored soldiers of the 65Gth and 651st Port Companies when the
CDNFIDENTIAL (teomas)
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Italians were present to make identifications of those people as being
in the Italian Area that night?
A Yes, sir.
Q
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fight?
A
at me.
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Were you identified?
Yes, sir.
Do you know who Identified you?
No, sir.
You heard the identification?
Yes, sir.
Did you have a chance to talk to him atout it?
No, sir.
They didn't ask you If you wanted to say anything?
No, sir.
What did the Italian say who identified you as "being in the
Ee didn't say anything that I heard. Ee Justpointed his finger
You have been identified twice haven't you?
Well, just one time.
What about the 2d time you refer to?
That is up at the aess hall.
Q When you were down before Major Manchester and Sgt. Todde
identified you as being one of thenBmbers of the colored soldiers who
attacked the 28th Italian Quartermaster Company on the night of ik August
what didyou say when he identified you?
A Well, that was down at the mess hall. That's the only time I
was identified. Up here at the other mess hall — the 650th -- I wasn't
identified.
Q You weren't identified at that time?
A No, sir.
Q Then, you have been identified by the same man twice haven't you?
A Well, if that was the same man.
Q You have been identified twice then?
A Yes, sir.
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Q Do you remember being present when Sgt. Todde vas asked the
following questions:
"Now, Todde, was Pvt. Thomas with other colored American soldiers
at the time you saw him on the night of the l^l-th of August 1914-U?" and
Sgt. Todde answered "Yes, sir." -
A Was that here, sir? '■
Q
A
Yes.
Yea, sir, in there sure.
Do you also remember hearing the following question:
"Vere any of the other colored Americaji soldiers who were
around, or near, or with Pvt. Thomas, armed with any clubs, sticks, knives,
rocks or shovels"? and his answer was "Yes, sir."
A Wo, sir.
Q You also heard the question asked:
"Did you observe Pvt. Thomas giving any assistance to any
colored American soldiers who were near him and around him, or with him,
to put down their clubs and leave the building?" and he said, "I cotildn't
say about that, I didn't observe." Also, "Did you observe Pvt. Thomas
giving any assistance to any colored American soldiers or any Italian
soldiers who had been wounded as a result of the attack?" and you heard
him say, "I don't remember that, sir."
Do you remember that?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you think of his identification?
A Well, I know the man was wrong.
Q Is there anything further that you want to give us in this case?
A Nothing but I will say to the last that I vmsn't there. I
wasn't there.
Q Thank you very much.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of Pfc. Arthur Williams, taken
at Seattle, Washington, on 2 October 19^^,
by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Arthur Williams, Pfc, 56789202, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you faMliar with your rights as a witness under the
2i4-th Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of Ik August I9I+4 were you out at Fort Lswton
when the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were you doiiig?
A Barber ing.
Q Whose hair were you cutting?
A I don't know definitely whose hair I vms cutting but I was
participating in barber ing.
Q What building were you in?
A I was in the old barracks -- 66Q.
Q You were cutting hair when you first heard of the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whatincident called your attention to the fight?
A Wall, I V7ill tell you. I purchased some commodities to use
going on the trip. Well, I had all my commodities -- I had purchased about
$10 worth -- candy, cigarettes and tobacco and so forth and in the meantime
I had all my barbering equipment out and my duffle bag was unpacked because
I didn't have any time to get that. I had been getting the Company ready.
I i^s still cutting hair at the time.
Q What didyou first hear to make you know there was a fight
going on?
A Well, I don't knovf.
Q
I will have to recall that.
Was there a lot of noise and hollering?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(WILLIA^E)
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A There was a party going on in the next tarracks down the street.
I didn't even know there was no fight out in the Italian Area.
Q You knew there was a party going on and they were playing a
lot of music?
A Yes.
Q Cettld you hear that electric guitar?
A No, sir. A guy told me they was having a party.
Q Did you go to the party?
A No, sir.
Q You heard all this hollering aro-ond there?
A Yes, I heard it around the mess hall.
C And you heard the windows "being hroken in there didn't you?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear rocks being thrown against the "building?
A No, sir, I was in the barracks .
Q Did ycu hear any screaming down in the Italian Area later
that night?
A No, sir.
?, You didn't hear nothing except that one little noise around
the mess hall?
A That is right.
Q, Did you ever go outside the barracks and look down that area?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q With all that noise going on you didn't go out?
A No, sir.
Q Did you lose a razor that night?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know the boys that have straight edge razors?
4 have you ever sharpened a razor for the boys?
A No, just my o\ax.
CDNFlDENTiAL
(WILLIAMS)
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Q And you didn't lose any razor that night?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever sharpened any of their knives for them?
A No, sir.
Q When the fight was over, and the boys "began to come "back up
to the area, you saw that didn't you?
A I didn't see them coming up there, hut I saw the harracks.
Q You saw what?
A Well, several of them comi.ng hack in the harracks .
Q Who did you see coming hack in the harracks after the fight
was over?
A I didn't see anybody. Where I era looking my hed is in the hack
of the barracks .
A
r-.
A
But youweren't in bed?
No, but I work at tny bed. The front door Is up further.
But the boys came in talking about the fight?
They all camein but I didn't know who they were.
Q Did you hear them talking?
A Yes, but I didn't know what it v/as. I wasn't going to leave all
'ilT equipment to hear some bunch of fibbing.
a fight?
A
Q
there?
A
A
Q
A
Well, you ioiow they weren't fibbing because they came back from
I didn't know.
Weren't you interested in the fight?
No, I 1/asn't.
Well, you know that you have been identified as being doim
Yes , I know that .
V/ho identified you?
An Italian.
And he told where you were?
Yes.
CDNFiDENTIAL
(WILLIAMS)
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Q And were you there?
A No, sir, I wasn't.
Q How do you figure he identified you?
A Going by v;hat he said. He said he saw me and I said he didn't
tecause I wasn't there.
Q Why do you think he identified you as "being there?
A He probably thought he saw me or someone that looked like me.
I am positive that I wasn't down there.
Q Well, there aren't very many colored soldiers that have gold
teetii is there?
A There is several of them.
Q In your Company?
A Yes, that have one gold tooth in the front. One and two and
Q But he definitely identified you as being doivn there?
A Just say he identified me. That's all. The best I can say
is that I v.asn't do^m there.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Teetimony of T/5 John Mack Sanders, taken
at Seattle, Washington, on 2 October 19il4, by-
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial nuxaber, organization and '
station.
A John Mack Sanders, T/5, 36892726, 650th Port Ccmpany, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the 2i)-th
Article of War?
A I think I am, sir.
Q Do you want me to explain it to you?
A It has been e3q)lained to me before, sir.
Q On the night of l^l- August ISW, were you in Barracks 665 when the
fight started between the colored soldiers and the 28th Italian Quarter-
master Company?
A No, sir, I was not in that barracks.
Q Where were you?
A I was in another barracks, I think two barracks below.
Q V/as it the barracks where Williams cuts hair?
A Yes, that is the one.
Q Were you in that barracks when the fight started?
A I guess when it started.
Q Vfitiat was the first thing you heard about the fight?
A The first thing I heard about it was after I left out of the
barracks.
Q well, didn't you hear the fighting going on when you were in the
barracks?
A IIo, sir.
Q Didn't you hear any noise down around that mess hall?
A No, sir, I didn't hear the noise down there.
CONFIDENTIAL
(SAHDSBS ) ^m^ MAc
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Q And the first thing you heard was when you left the barracks? •
A The first thing I heard was the whistle. ■.'^-
Q Was the whistle in the vicinity of the "barracks or down "below?
A Right in front of the "barracks.
Q Who was "blowing the whistle?
A I don't know, sir.
Q You didn't see who was "blowing the whistle and you heard the
man "blow it?
A I don't see the man.
Q Wasn't there a bunch of people gathered up there?
A The whistle blew and m© aftd some other boys was playing cards.
Q Who was the other boy?
A Sammy /dams. We call him "Klngfish." The whistle blew and
I said, ">/hat the hell is that i'or", and he said, "I d on ' 1 1-aaow . " He said,
"IVe will finish the game", and in about two or three minutes we v;ent out.
I sav a big bunch of soldiers over in front of this other barracks.
Q That is this one over here across the road? (indicating)
A Yes, the two story barracks.
Q You saw a bunch of boys down 719?
A Yes, I don't know the number of it. I went down there and I
heard somebody say that one of our boys got hit.
Q
A
it was .
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Who said that?
I don't know. Then, I was going in the barracks to see who
Wssn't there a whistle being blom?
No, the whistle blew once or twice out there in the road.
By the time you got out the v;histle had stopped blowing?
Yes.
Eadn't the people started to assemble?
I don't think so because the whistle seemed like it blowed right
in front of this barracks . It was all down in front of this other barracks .
Q V/hen you got down to Barracks 719? yuu saw this great crowd
gathered around this barracks?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(SAITOEES)
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A Yea, sir.
Q Who did you aee down there that you know -- out of your Company?
A I saw —
Q Luther Lerkin?
A I don't remember. li" you don't mind, sir, I will try to think.
I saw Frank Hughes.
Q What was Frank Hughes doing?
A He was trying to get in the door.
Q What for?
A This hoy that got hit since then, I learned it was Snow, v^e was
all trying to go in there to see if he v/as hit and what it vms all ahout.
I sav/ Frank Hughes.
Q Was Frank saying anything when you saw him?
a' No, he wasn't saying anything. I think Booker Thornton.
Q What was Booker Thornton doing?
A He was trying to get in the door.
Q You saw Addison George at the door?
A I am not for sure.
Q If you saw him, v/hat was he doing?
A All the hoys was at the door and all trying to get in. \'/hen
you are doiiig something like that, I didn't think to pick out —
Q You couldn't get in the door because it was so crowded you
people covildn't get in?
A That la right.
Q Now, what else happened there?
A Some MP's came up and asked ahout the First Sergeant.
Q Now, wait. Before the MP's came up there was something else
that happened in front of that huilding wasn't there. Wasn't there a
Dunch of fellows leaving the building and going down the Italian Area?
A No, sir.
Q
Hadn't some of them tore the fence cr were they tearing it down?
I don't remember the fence.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1. 334
(SANDEES)
^'
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DECLASSIHED
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By.,^NARA Date//<l,g
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Q You remeiiiber seeing them tear it down don't you?
A No, sir.
Q Well, you got there while all that crowd was around 700 and that
is when the fence was being torn down?
A I don't remetaber the fence.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Don't you remember the fence with the wire?
Major, you wemt me to tell you the truth?
Yea.
Well, that is what I am trying to do.
After they couldn't get in the building, what else did you see
out there?
A I didn't see anything. Would you rather ask me the questions
or would you rather me tell you what happened?
n
A
A
"^
A
Q
A
Q
A
A
Q
'4
A
I will ask you the questions.
All right.
Eov long did you stay out in front of the building?
About three minutes .
And some I'C's came up?
Yes.
Did they cone in the Jeep?
I don't think there was a Jeep.
In a comriand car?
Yes.
Hov/ many of them came in the command car; do you know?
I don't remember.
wTiat did they do?
Two of then came and asked for tiie First Sergeant.
Did they get a hold of the First Sergeant?
Wnen they asked for the First SergeaxLt, I went in to get him.
That's 3gt. Aubry?
Yes, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(SAIiDEES)
0 ') c.,
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Q What was Sgt. Aubry doing and where was he?
A He was out; he was not there.
Q What did you do?
A I stayed in the harracks.
Q V/hat did you do?
A I looked out the window.
Q What did you see going on?
A The only thing I saw was the jeeps and ambulances running up
and ' down the streets .
Q
A
Q
A
A
A
Didn't you see them running up and down?
No, sir.
You saw them come in the building?
In "barracks 719?
In this harracka where you were?
I didn't see anybody come in.
Q
You mean youstayed th.ere all that time after the fighting was
over, in the room where the S^-t. slept and still didn't see anyone come
in the barracks?
A Nobody but the Set . and I think Willie Prevost .
Q
Q
A
Q
What did Willie say when he came in?
Ee didn't say anything to me.
Did he say anything to the sergeant?
Ee didn't say anything to the sergeant.
What was the sergeant talking about?
Ee told me how bad the boys carried on.
Q
What did you tell him?
A I didn't tell him anything. Be told me they tore up the barracks
down there. He didn't say he had been down, Ee was just telling me
how they did .
0. Did he tell you who had gone dovTi there?
A No, sir, he didn't.
Q Did he tell you what started the fight?
CaNFlDENTiAL
(Si^JTOERS)
JJtl>.
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Q
it down?
A
Q
A
Q
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Q
A
No, sir.
He didn't say they ran a Jeep into one of the tents and tore
No, sir.
Did he tell you they threw rocks thru the windows?
No, sir.
Did he tell you they hung a hoy?
No, sir.
Did he know whether they hung a man or not?
No, sir.
Did you know at that time?
No, sir, I didn't know until we was fixing to go down here.
Who told you?
Plnkney was telling me.
Didn't Pinkney tell you who he saw down in the fight?
No, sir.
After the fight, did you talk to anyone ahout it?
The only time I talked to anybody about the fight was here
about 5 weeks ago oyer here in this little stockade.
Q Wlio did you talk to then?
A Willie Ellis. He said he was down there and saw all that vent on.
Who did he tell you was down there at the time?
He told me Wallace Wooden and Sgt. Hurks, Sgt. Gresham, Luther
Larkin, Booker Thornton -- I am not sure about that.
ft
Q Did he tell youwhat they did?
A No, sir, he didn't tell me. He said one thing that Hurks seemed
to be engineering the fight.
Q Hurks kind of led them down there?
A He didn't say "led them down there." Ee said he kind of
engineered it. He didn't say who led them down there or anything like
that. Here's one thing he said. He said those MP's called a bunch of the
boys over to the car and Hurks stood up in the door and the MP's told Hurks
that the boys there did a damn nice Job.
CDNFIDENTIAL
( SANDERS)
■-;. 1
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Q Did he tell you who those MP's were?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see the MP's when Eurks went and sat on the side of the
car and talked to them?
A No, sir, I couldn't see that. I wasn't there.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
You didn't see Hurks go over there?
No, sir, I couldn't swear. I am only telling you what I heard.
Hurks no douht talked to the MP's in front of Building 719.
I don't know anything ahout that.
E3-lis told you that the MP's did say that they had done a damn
good joh.
A Yes, Ellis told me and told auite a few of us over here in
the stockade.
■< What did Ellis say he did?
A He didn't say he did anything.
Q Did he say Soy Montgomery was down there?
A No, sir.
C Does V/.llace live down there with you?
A No, sir.
0
?i During the fight, did ycu see Wallace Wooden anywhere?
A No, sir, I was in the "barracks.
Q Wasn't Wallace supposed to he In that dice game?
A >/hich dice game.
Q That v;as going on in Building 719?
A That was early evening. You see, they have lots of dice games
up around there.
5 Now, after the fight was over, the hoys hegan to come hack to
the harrecks and ycu were still in the "barracks end you heard the sergeant
talking to Willie Prevost.
A I didn't 'near hia talking.
Q ■ Prevost came in vrhere youwere .
A I lived in the hack of the "barracks and Prevost lived in the
front of the barracks .
CDNFIDENTIAL
(SANDERS)
DECLASSIFIED
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By,^NARA Date/^
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Q Did he go to ted?
A I don't remember, sir, whether he did or not.
Q You didn't hear him say anything about the fight?
A The only time I heard blm say anything about the fight was
when we was over here. He said he was down there and had a stick, but
he wasn't in it.
Q Willie told you that?
A Yes . I asked him what he was doing with the stick ajid he
said he went down there and saw them fighting and he wanted some protection.
Q Did he say he hit sjiyone?
A He said he did not, sir.
Q ',Tao else did youtalk to about it?
A About the fight?
Q Yes .
A I talked to Addison George and he said he was down there, but he
said when he got there it was all over.
Q Who else did you talk to?
A I haven't talked to anvbody else. They didn't like to talk
very much about it .
Q Did you ever talk to anybody about the hajcxging?
A No, sir, I ain't talked to anybody about that at all. The only
time I heard anybody say an^i^hing about that was Pinkney when we were
in fci'mation and I had heai^d a couple of the officers and they told me about
that and I read it in the paper.
Q You never hesrd any of the boys talking that they vrere in on
the hanging?
A No, sir.
Q Dc you have any idea vrho did 't?
A No, sir. I would have better sense to go dovm there and fight becaua
I v/as always taught better to stay out of places like that. Those boys
don't talk very much about it over there.
Q Were you with King that night?
A No, sir.
^ Did you see King that night?
^.^
CDNFIDENTIAL
A)b
(SANDEES)
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Q
A
Q
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«4
A
I seen him the early part of the night.
You didn't see him during the fight?
No, sir.
Did you see Sgt. Palmer?
No, Palmer and I had been talking in the barracks "before the fight.
And after the fight you didn't see Palmer?
No, sir.
Q
Nov, after this conversation which you heard the First Sergeant
having in Barracks 719, after the fight, what did you do?
A Oh, I was in "bed, sir. I was already in "bed, sir. I was in
"bed v^hen the Sergeant caine in.
Q And you stayed in bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did any of the other boys come in end go to bed after youwere
in bed?
A I don't remember any of the boys coming in. Most of the boys in
that barracks vere in bed already.
Q Did you ever talk to Wallace Woodenebout the fight?
A No, sir, I didn't because I haven't been close to Wallace
since the fight.
Q And these that you have named are the only ones that you
talked to about it?
A That is right. Oh, I have asked lots of boys if they know
anything about it.
Q Did any of them ever tell you about it other than those you
have given us?
A They don't know anything.
Q Wss there aji\' discussion in your barracks the morning following
the riot about the man that was hanged?
A No, sir, not as I know of because the next morning we was up
early and pretty much en the move.
Q >/hen you were notified about the hanging, they siu-ely discussed
it some didn't they?
A The first thing I heard an;rthing about it was when we was down
CDNFIDENTiAL
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here at the staging area.
Q Is tjiat when Plnkney told you?
A Ee was talking.
Q Did anybody ask Pinkney any (questions about it?
A Yes, King. King asked pinkney was the man's hands tied when he
was hung.
Q Did anyone else ask Pinkney anything about it besides King?
A ITo, sir.
Q Did Pinkney tell him whether his hands were tied or not?
A Pinkney said he didn't know.
Q I wonder why King asked him that?
A I don't know, sir.
Q Did King elucidate on why he asked it that way?
A No, sir, not to me, sir.
Q Is there anything else you want to tell us about it?
A No, sir.
CDNFiDENTIAL
[34.
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Testimony of T/5 Herman Lee Eedley, taken
at Seattle, Washington, on 2 October 19^^ ty
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organiation and
station.
A Herman Lee Eedley, T/5, 585^6536, 651st Port Company, Fort
Lawton, V^eshington.
Q Are you familjar with your rights as a witness under the
2li-th Article of War?
A Is that --
Q I will explain it to you. (The 24th Article of Ver was read
tc the witness) Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of 1^4- August, were you out in Fort Lawton when
the fight started between the Italians and the colored soldiers?
A Yes, sir.
A
What barracks were you in when you first heard of it'
I lived in Barracks 675'
Q What was the first thing that happened that drew your attention
to the fight?
A There was a boy, Mitchell, cane in and said Italians and
colored boys were fighting dowD there. That's the first I heard ofit.
Q Did he say "everybody out" or did he Just come in and mention it'
A He just ca^ne in and mentioned it.
Q What did you do?
A I was fixing my pack and clothes. I looked out of my window
down to the PX. I could see the PX.
A
What did you see down triere?
I sew a bui;ch of soldiers.
About a hundred?
Something like that.
Around this mess hal] down there?
CDNFiDENTIAL
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A There is a road goes down in the Italian Area down here.
Q That would be on the road?
A It branches off this main street. It looked like they was
standing at the fork of that road.
Eoad?
Q They was standing at the fork of Virginia Avenue and Lawton
A That is right.
Q What were they doing?
A I don't know, air.
Q Vferen't they hollering?
A No, everything was q.uiet.
Q Was there a whistle being blowri?
A No, sir.
Q
Did you hear a whistle being blown down in the area of which
you speak?
A !Jo, ^r.
Q Fnat did you do after you looked cut of the window?
A I looked about two minutes and vent on back and finished ray pack.
Q Did you see some of this crowd start down the Italfan Area?
A I couldn't say, sir.
Q, Did you see them all standing around?
A Well, sir, it looked like somebody was questioning them,
Q After you went back and started rolling your pack, what happened?
A I rolled my pack, fixed my duffle bag and got into bed.
Q Row, before you got in bed, was there any of the boys in your
barracks that left the barracks and went down toward the area?
A Before I got in bed?
Q
A
Q
Yes, after you heard about the fight?
I didn't pay that much attention.
Did any of them leave the barracks?
They could have. I didn't pay that much attention to them.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q You didn't see anyone go down there?
A Ho, sir J I didn't.
Q After you got in Tjed, did yousee any of them coming back from
the area?
A Ho, sir, I got in "bed and the only thing I remember was the
Major — some Major ajid one or two MP's came in there ane he said "put out
all these lights ."' When he said that I looked out from under my blanket
to see if there was anybody to put the lights out. Somebody put the
lights out. I don't know who it was.
Q You didn't see anyone come back from the Area?
A No, sir.
Q Before you vent to bed, did you see anyone come back from
that Area?
A I don't know, sir. You see, sir, we was all fixing the clothes
and I wasn't paying no attention.
Q Didn't you hear some discussion of the fight that night?
A 210, sir.
Q The next morning did you hear some of them discussing the
fight?
A No, sir. I didn't know \jhat happened. Whail knew that the
Italians and colored boys had a fight they called me up that morning and
questioned me.
Q Who is the first person that you talked to about it that the
about the fight?
A I didn't talk to no cne that knew about it.
Q '""elj-^ later you did, didn't you?
A Let me see, sir. Sir, I have to explain to you. The next
morning, after the fight, the Company went to the consolidated mess hall
to eat and I didn't go. You see, I worked late that night axid I ate something
before I left the ness hall and I was going to get as much sleep as I could .
When they cane back I was up getting my stuff ready and an order caine
thjrough to fall out and all I could do was get ready to move out. Well,
the Captain told the cooks a truck was coming to get us and take us to
the inner bay to fix the kitchen car for the Company. Well, they made
us leave our bags there and we got on the truck and had to go get the
field equipment out in the kitchen. Vfflll, we v^ent and got some GI cans
and went down to the inner bay and prepared the kitchen car. V/e fixed
the car and got chow ready for the Company. Inhere the Company was then
CDNFIDENTiAL
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I don't knov. They switched us around and we got down on the dock and an
order came to stop — we got to go back — we had put on nothing "but
fatigues. We had to take all that off and then switched the car up and
down the track and it seemed to me it was aroimd five o'clock when I got
hack up here to cemip from down there fooling with that car and when we
got tack the Company was in the stockade.
Q You went in the stockade with them?
A No, sir, they was already in there.
Q When you first got back in the stockade what was the first
conversation you had with anybody concerning the fight?
A The first thing I was to do was find out where I was living.
I went to a tend and I found the cooks.
Q Who were those people?
A I was staying in the tent with the Mess Sergeant.
Q >/hat is his name?
A Ernest Graham and T/5 Eobert Boyd. There was one or two more
staying in there.
Q
What conversation did you have with the cooks and the Mess
Sergeant about the fight?
A I wanted to know why they were putting us in the stockade and
he figured they was holding us on account of the fight.
Q Who said that?
A We were all just teuLking. I said, "Why are they going to
hold all of us?" He said we have to wait to find that out.
Q l^Tio else did you have conversation with about the fight.
A Nobody, sir.
Q How about since that time. Haven't you heard anyone talking
about the fight?
A Well, I heard -- a boy said he was down there.
Q Who was that?
A A boy in our Company. They call him "Slick".
Q Willie C'orry?
A Yes.
Q What did he say he did down there?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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A He said he went down there. He hit a fellow and he drove a
Jeep down there.
Q Wtio else did he say was down there?
A He didn't say. He was telling it and everybody was laughing
ahout it.
Q Who else mentioned it since that time?
A He and Rohert Montgomery.
Q Did Robert say he had been down there?
A He said he had told a Major —
Q Who else was talicing about it and said he was there?
A They was telling Ellery Mitchell and Joe Scott .
Q Did Joe Scott say he was down there?
A No, sir.
Q Did Mitchell say he was down there?
A No, sir.
Q V/ho else was in the crowd and said they were down there?
A That's all.
^ Since that time whom have you heeurd talking about it?
A Nobody.
Q Now, how about the hanging? IVho said they were in that?
A I ain't heard nothing.
Q You mean you haven't heard anything about the hanging?
A No, sir, and the first time I heard about it was when they
questioned me.
Q You haven't heard a single soul tell about the hanging and
who did it?
A No, sir.
Q
A
r\
A
Didn't Wallace Wooden say he was down there?
I don't Icnow him.
How about Ksrman Johnson?
No, siy, I haven't heard him say a thing.
Q Djdn't he say he had been doxra to the hanging?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(REDISY)
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A No, Sir.
Q How atout Willie Basden?
A Who is that, sir?
Q Henry Jupiter say anything a"bout teing in the hanging?
A No, sir.
Q You haven't heard anyone say anything ahout the hanging?
A Wo, sir.
Q Didn't anyone talk ahout vho did it?
A No, sir, they don't tell us. If you could go doim there
you vould see their attitude.
Q They Just don't talk ahout it.
A No, sir.
Q Do you have any idea vho did the hanging?
A No, sir, I don't, sir.
Q You must have some idea ahout it?
A Sir, I vill tell you the truth, sir. I was working that night
in the mess hall and since then, sir, they treated me in a way I was in
no position to know nothing. I wasn't fooling around with the hoys and
a lot of those hoys I don't know thea. A lot of them I met since I cene
hack. I caiae oaok to iihs Company from Cooks School socaevhere around
the 21st of June and stayed with them ahout a week and went on f-orlough
on lii- July.
Q la there anything else, whether I asked you or not, that you
want to tell ne ahout this case?
A No, sir.
Q Are you known hy your organization as "Corporal HED."
A No, sir, that's a Sergeant Gravy. He's ahout the only fellow
that calls me "Red." They all call :ie Bedley. A lot of thera don't know
jiy first name.
Q You know that Eoy Montgomery has testified that you were down
in the area don't you?
A
Said I was do\ni there?
A No, sir, and .If he did say so he told a story, sir. That's not true.
. ' *
CDNriDENTIAL
1347
(eedley) (end)
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DECLASSIHED
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Testimony of Pvt. Herman L. Gentry, taken
at Seattle, Washington, on 2 October 19i|-il-, by
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L, Williams, IGED.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization and
station.
A Herman L. Gentry, Pvt., 56897258, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness imcler the 24th
Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q Herman, on the ik of August 19^^, ^^ere you out at Fort Lawton
when the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A No, sir.
Q Where were you?
A Down town. I was up there with a girl friend.
Q 'fnat was her name?
A Edna Gentry.
Q 't'fiiere does she live?
A 615-^ Jeckson.
Q Do you remember the phone number?
A SE 1657, I think it is.
Q Wliat time did you leave the camp to go down to town?
A Well, it was around eleven or a little after eleven. I don't
know exactly. There was two ladies out there to visit me.
Q Were these same two out visiting you that you went down to see?
A No, I brought them to the bus stop and I left the bus stop and
went on to town.
Q
Well, they got on the bus then?
A Yes, air.
Q How did you get out the gate?
A I didn't get out the gate. I went under the fence.
CQNFiDENTIAL
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By.)^NARADate.
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Q You crawled ijnder the fence?
A Yes .
Q Where did you crawl under the fence?
A It was on the far side of the fence over by the prison.
Q And then how did you travel from there to town?
A Well, when I come under the fence, I went around through a
street — I don't know what it was -- and came around to where the hus comes.
Q Did you get on the same "bus that the girls were on?
A No, they went out this gate on this side and I went on the
other side.
gate'
A
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A
Q
A
You vent out on the east gate and they came out on the south
I don't know, hut those are the ones.
How did youget to town after getting out?
On the bus.
Did you have anyone with me?
I had another friend with me, Thomas Pridgeon.
Q And you and Thomas crawled out from under the fence at the same
time and both vent to town together?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you came out did you get on a bus?
A Yes, we came out and came to a bus stop and after a while a
bus came and picked ua up.
Q
A
A
Q
A
Q
Q
You paid your fare on the bus?
Yes, sir.
Where did youget off?
We transferred said went right to Jackson Street.
And that's where she lives?
Yes, sir.
When you got out to Jackson Street what time was it?
As close as I could get it was around twelve.
And you left the area with your girl friend around eleven?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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A Around eleven or a little after "becauae we were standing out
in the area with the girls and the MP came up in some jeep and said it was
time out for those girls and we had to get them off the post. We come
on down to catch the bus and while on our way hack to the hue, the MP
stopped us again and said, "You all better hurry up." We got down to
the bus stop and this MP was at the bus stop and said time was out for
those ladies and said they should have been gone a good while ago and he
said those passes had to go before the Colonel and he tore those passes
up and put the pieces where they put cigarettes. The bus stayed there about
two or three minutes and when the bus pulled off Thomas and myself went
by the Service Club and went out through by the gate.
Q Didn't you know you sho'oldn't leave the camp after eleven?
A YeS; sir.
Q Youi' Company was getting ready to leave the next day, wasn't it,
and youwere confined to the camp?
A Yes , sir.
Q .^d you violated all orders going to town?
A Yea, sir.
Q And you knew that at the time you violated it?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long did you stay do\m town?
A I came back on the first bus .
Q vrnat time did yau get back?
A I don't know what time, but I was back in time for reveille.
Q Did you stay in your girl friend's house?
A Yes, sir.
Q Wliat did you all do?
A Well, we went to bed .
Q Stayed in bed all night?
A Yes. Wnea I got to town, Thomas, he didn't get off the bus
and I went to this hotel on Jackson Street.
Q Oh, you 3tayed in a hotel?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't see Tho mas any more that night?
CONFIDENTIAL
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A Yes, he came back.
Q Came back to the hotel?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't all four stay in the same room?
A No, sir.
Q Just you and this girl stayed in this room?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he came back and got you in the morning and you came back
to camp together on the bus?
A Yes, sir.
Q How did you get in?
A We came back the same way we left .
Q Got out and crawled under the fence?
A Yes, sir.
Q It was day light when you crawled under the fence gate wasn't it?
A No, sir, it wasn't.
Q Now, you were down in the "JOO area about eleven o'clock with
the girls?
A Well, I would say it was around eleven because the MP's aaid
it was time out.
Q Where were you while you were down there?
A Ve was standing out in front of building 578.
Q What was going on?
A We was standing out there talking.
Q Didn't someone get hurt while you were there?
A No, sir.
Q You saw the MPs come up in a jeep?
A Yes, they told us time was out for the girls and we had to
get them off the post.
Q And that was the last time you saw the MP's?
A Well, I just told you.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q The last time you saw the MP's vas In that vicinity?
A Yes.
Q You didn't see the MP's pick up a wounded man while in that
"building did you?
A No, I didn't.
Q Are you married?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where is your wife?
A In Detroit.
Did you write her and tell her about this party you had?
No, sir, I didn't. You see, this girl is from Detroit, too, and
my wife kind of thought I was going with her when she came out to see me.
Q
Q
A
A
Q
A
The girl dropped "by to see you?
She came out from Detroit to see me.
Did she tell you why she was coming?
No, sir.
Did she go "back and tell your wife she was coming out?
No, sir.
Q While you were down next to the mess hall, what was going on
inside the mess hall?
A Well, they had some beer in there.
A
Q
A
Q
Q
A
And a guitar?
Yes, electric guitar.
Dancing a little?
Yes, sir.
Did you have your girl in tlaere?
Yes, sir.
Who else had girls down there?
A fellow by the name of Jesse Jackson. Els girl was out there.
Did Sgt. Taimer have a girl out there?
No, sir. He talked with this other girl that was with mine.
We was on the south side of the mess hall talking.
CGNFIDENTIAL
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Q But he didn't have a date?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see William G. Jones dovn there? , • . V
A Yes, he was down there,
Q Did you see Luther Lerkin?
A No, sir.
Q Roy Daymond?
A No, sir.
Q You know them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see Sgt. Bennett, the Mess Sergeant?
A I don't know him.
Q Did yau see Cpl. McDeniels, one of the cooks?
A I don't know any of the fellows in the 57Sth at all.
Q When you left that area there hadn't there "been any fighting
going on "between the Italians and the colored soldiers?
A No, sir.
Q But it started after Jou left?
A I couldn't tell when it started hecause I didn't come back to
the area.
Q The next morning when yougot hack to the area, what was
happening when you Joined the Company?
A V/ell, there wasn't anything happening. When I came hack, I was
there I guess about ten or fifteen minutes before reveille.
Q When reveille blew, you all got in formation didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And at reveille was there any discussion that was had concerning
the fight the njght before?
A No, sir.
Q V/hen was the first tiiae you heard anything about the fight?
A The first time I knew anything about it was when we came back
I heard some of them talking about there was a fight that night.
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Q Who was that?
A I couldn't recall.
Q What did they aay?
A The only thing I heard about it was they had a fight and
Lieutenant Kapitz said more about it and I Imow what it was all about.
Q After Lieutenant Kapitz told you about the fight and you
learned about it, what disaussion did you hear among the members of
the Company concerning it?
A Nothing, sir. I don't know nothing about it. I wan't in the
camp and I don't know nothing about.
Q What have you heard about it since that time?
A I haven't heard nothing at all.
Q Do you know that you have been Identified as being one of the
parties that participated in the fight?
A Yes, I have.
Q Youheard that Italian soldier who said he saw you standing
In the area with a club?
A Yes, sir.
Q What do you have to say to tliat?
A Well, he was Just wrong. I have no other statement to make
other than what I have already.
Q What discussion did you hear the soldiers make concerning
the hanging?
A I haven't heard anytliing at all.
Q
A
Q
Q
A
You haven't heard a single individual talk about the hanging?
No, sir, I haven't. I wouldn't tell you no lie, sir.
Do you know who was down there in the fight?
No, sir, I don't. Colonel.
You know some of them, don't you?
No, sir, I don't.
Q Now, this girl whom you have named, will she testify that
you stayed all night with her?
A I guess she will if you will see her, sir.
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Q Do you want me to call her?
A I would like for you to.
Q And have her testify that you stayed all night with her on the
night of the fight from the time you arrived down town until morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is her name?
A Edna Gentry. Her reeil name is Edna Connor, "but she took my
name while she was out here .
Q Do you give her an allotment?
A No, sir.
Q Don't you have to pay her any money at all? ■
A ITo, sir.
Q When she was here didn't you have to give her a little money
to support her?
Q
A
<4
No, sir.
Was she working?
She was working at the hotel as a maid .
■What is the name of the hotel?
Annex Hotel, 6l5^ Jackson.
Q When you were in the hotel did anybody else see you go in
that night?
A When she came to town she was at the cafe. When I got off the
"bus I went upstairs and knocked on the door and when I was coming hack
the landlady was coming out her door and asked ne if she could open the
door and I said no and she told me Edna was downstairs.
Q Did the landlady think that you and Edna v;-ere married?
A Yes, sir, she did .
Q Did you make arrangements with Edna to meet her someplace when
you left her out at the post?
A Yes, sir.
A
You told her you would he right on down?
Yes, air.
And she waited downstairs for you?
No, she told me she was going to stop and get something to eat,
CDNFIDENTiAL
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Testimony of Pvt. Jefferson D. Green,
taken at Seattle, Washington, on 2 October
19^^, by Lieut. Colontl Curtis L. Williams,
IGD.
The witness vas svorn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization,
and station.
A Jefferson D. Green, Pvt., 58252258, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
24th Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q Gentry, on the night of Ik August, when a fight occurred
between the Italian soldiers and the colored soldiers at Fort Lawton,
where were you?
A I was in the barracks, sir.
Q
A
Q
started?
A
Q
A
What is the number of your barracks?
719 upstairs .
Were you in the upstairs of barracks 719 when the fight
Yes, I was.
VT-jBt were you doing?
I was in bed .
Q Now, as you lay in bed, what was the first thouglit that you
had or what vas the first warning that you had that there was a fight
going on outside?
A There was a lot of hollering and yelling and boys running up
and down the barracks and saying one of our boys was knocked in the head.
Q Who came in and said that?
A As I have told you before --
Q You never told me anything. This is the first time I have
ever talked to you.
A Pardon me. I was Just transferred into this organization. I
don't know any of the boys. At that particular time I knew a very few
of them and I couldn't call anyone's name.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q But you recognized their faces didn't you?
A Ifo, sir, I didn't recognize no one's face "because where I'
was I couldn't even see them. I was in the rear upstairs on the left hand
side and from downstairs people in front there you can't see.
Q You were in "bed then and you heard all this noise?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do?
A I didn't do anything at the particular time.
Q How long did you stay in ted "before you got up?
A I can't give you time on that, sir, hut when I did get up it
was all over.
Q Had the hoys started coming hack from the Italian Aree?
A I don't know. There v;as a buach of thon outside and the First
Sergeant was telling all of the hoys to cone in, and the Lieutenant was'
telling them to come in, too.
Q What Lieutenant was telling them to come in?
A I can't recall his name. Lieutenant Kapitz was out there.
C Lieutenant Eapitz and the First Sergeant were out there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Y u are sure Lieutenant Kapitz and the First Sergeant were
there? "^
A Yes, sir.
Q V/hat was Eapitz saying to them?
A He was telling them to go hack to the harracks .
Q What did you do?
A I immediately went hack in the barracks.
Q And went to bed?
A I went hack and got to bed .
Q \fh.lle you were in bed severeil of the hoys camein?
A A lot ceime in back of me.
Q Did you recognize any of them?
A During the excitement you wouldn't take notice to any faces.
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Q While you were downstairs seeing Lieutenant Kapitz and the
Sergeant trying to get them back in the harracks, did you see anyhody
that you recognized?
A I didn't recognize them.
Q Did you see anyone dov/n there who, since the night of llj- August,
you have learned their name and can associate their name with the face
you saw down there?
A I couldn't very well do that, sir.
Q All you remember is a bunch of men down there?
A Just a bunch of men and the Lieutenant and First Sergeant
telling them to come in.
Q And you went upstairs and got your clothes off and went to bed?
A That's right.
Q And after you got in bed you didn't recognize any of them
that came in?
A They was walking in and talking about the incident.
Q How, who did the talking?
A Well, the men. The men were doing the talking. Occasionally,
I would, in order to learn of the incident, I would ask and talk with them.
Q Do you know v;ho talked to you?
A Just the men. I don'tkiow their names.
Q Have you learned their names since that time?
A The men -- One thing about it, as I told you before, it was
during the excitement and I didn't pay any attention to who I was talking .
I rfas trying to learn of what it\es all about and what happened.
Q Did you learn what the cause was?
A All I learned was that they was supposed to be going down there
to get the Italians for knocking out two of the boys. I never did see
the boys until the next morning. I didn't know anything about it.
Q But that's what you heard that night?
A That's rjght.
Q Who told you that? ' :
A Well, the whole group.
Q The whole group?
';:>. 'r^!--
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A Yes, sir.
Q After you learned what the cause of the fight was, did you
learn who they were fighting that night?
A Well, all I know they were fighting the Italians.
Q Did you see any of the Italians fighting?
A I didn't see them fighting the Italians.
Q Did you see the Italians that hit Willie D. Montgomery?
A Wo, sir.
Q Did you see any of the soldiers who had hit Willie Montgomery?
A Wo, sir.
Q Did you see Willie Montgomery?
A I didn't see him until the nezt morning.
Q Where did you see him the next morning?
A V/hen they brought him -- they hr ought three boys, Snow, Clark
and Montgomery in the amhulamce to the Company.
Q From the hospital?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you talked to him then?
A I helped two of them get their clothes together.
Q Which ones did youhelp?
A Clark and Snow.
Q Did you talk to Clark and Snow about the fight at that time?
A I didn't ask them anything about it. We was in a hurry packing
and I was standing out there because I wasn't in line. I was helping
clean up the barracks and helping the men that didn't have their things
ready and so I Just pitched in and helped them get their clothes together.
Q All the time you talked to them while helping them get their
clothes ready and everything youdidn't mention anything about the fight?
A I wasn't talking about the incident whatsoever.
Q Now, have you, since the night of ik August discussed the
fight with anyone?
A I have.
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Q Who vas that?
A I discussed it with the boys in the 'baxracks with me.
Q Who were they?
A It was Alvin Clark and Walter Jackson
George Jeckson, and Willie Ellis.
not Walter Jackson --
Q Who else?
A And Small.
Q Which Small is that?
A It Is Smallwood . All I know is Small — not Smallwood .
Q Clarence Small?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you discussed the fight with Clarence Small, did you?
A Yes, it was Just ahout this affair. It was fivemen of us
that stayed in that particular tent .
Q Which was the discussion that you five men had concerning
the fight?
A It wasn't concerning the fight, it was concerning who was
implicated in the fight and who they thought was implicated and who
they didn't think.
Q Did they say who they knew was implicated?
A It seemed like it was a majority of the group that was out there
wasn't implicated.
Q Was or wasn't?
A Wasn't.
Q Did they tell you about how many were implicated?
A No, they didn't aay.
Q Did Ellis tell you that George Jackson vaa in the fight?
A No, he didn't.
Q Did he tell you that Jefferson Green was in it?
A That's me.
Q Yes .
A No, he didn't.
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Q
A
Q
A
Did he say anythiiig about Clarence Small being in it'
No, he didn't.
At what gate vere youand Alvin waiting?
Where the MP's are stationed.
Q The MP's are stationed at both gates.
A If I am not mistaken, I think it is the east gate. The
furtherest from the hospital.
Q What were you and Alvin doing there?
A We was waitinf for some girls.
Q Did the girls come?
A No, sir.
Q What did you do? * .
A We went to the hospital to make a phone call.
Q Did you make a phone call?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whom did you call?
A He called the girls.
Q Did youtalk to them or did you hear him talking to them?
A I didn't talk to them.
Q Did you and Alvin go anywhere after getting through with me
telephone conversation?
A Well, I come back to the barracks and went to bed.
Q And after you went to bed this thing happened latter, didn't it'
A That's right.
Q And that is all you know about the case then is what you have
told me?
A That's about all I know.
Q IS there anything else, whether I have asked you or not, which
you want to tell me?
A I don't think there is, sir. I want to tell you the basic
facts and the facts of what I know. It is nothing that I am trying to
hide. It is simply because I don't know anything. I really didn't know
the men, as I told you, and I have heard a lot of men coming from the
CDNFIDENTJAL
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fight -- I mean, after they had come from the fight — discussing what
they had done. I couldn't no more point out those men to you as you can
and you vasn't there. Now, I know quite a few men that come upstairs and
what they did.
Q Who were those?
A That was what I am trying to tell you. I cannot tell you because
it was during the excitement, and I was trying to listen to everybody
and get some information myself. I didn't know who those people were.
Q And you since haven't learned who they were?
A No, sir, I haven't because the men that you have there now
I haven't learned to know their names. 1 will tell you what transpired
in this organization. I vent on a furlough and I overstayed my time
on the furlough and I come back and I was doing time then for overstaying
the furlough. That's the reason.
Q How much time did you get for overstaying the furlough?
A 30 days.
Q Did you do all of it?
A I done everything of it inside camp.
Q How much trouble have you been in before you got in the Army?
A I have had trouble twice.
Q What were those two times?
A I would rather say that was personal, sir, because after all
it was a misunderstanding and it is all made up again.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Was it criminal trouble?
Authorities could look up on it as such, but I wouldn't.
Were you in prison for it?
I was a couple times .
In what Jail?
County jail in San Antonio, Texas. That was the first time
I have ever been in prison in my life.
Q What was the second occasion?
A It was the same thing. It was a woman. It was a woman
the same thing.
Q And they both happened in San Antonio, Texas?
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A
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A
Yes, sir.
And how long did you stay in the second time?
Just a couple days.
■ i
Were you sentenced?
Wo, sir.
Just held for investigation?
That is all. It was thrown out "by the court.
It was thrown out ty the court?
Yes, sir.
Was it on a murder charge?
Wo, I never did anything like that. It was some misunderstanding
between a woman and myself.
Q Did you cut her -- knife her?
A No, I didn't harm her. She said I threatened her. Well, the
lady she worked for was somewhat afraid and turned in a threat.
Q You mean threatened to rape her or threatened to assault her
or what?
A No, I threatened to hurt her.
Q Had she been a wife of yours?
A No, just a woman I went with. That was why I said it was
personal. It is all waiahed away and we didn't lose friendship about it.
It was thrown out of court.
Q And that's the only two times you have been in trouble?
A Yes, it was about the same thing.
Q Now, on the night that this thing happened, you state that you
remained up in your barracks and stayed there except when you went down
in front of the building.
A That is right, sir. I want to ask you a question. How could
that Italian point me out as being one man that would strike him?
Q Well, I can't, answer that. I want to ask you a question.
A All right.
Q How could Battle point you out as being down there with a
club and Igiocking out the window panes and lights in the orderly room
CONFIDENTIAL
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of Building 715 — a friend of yours who has known you a long time. How
caji he point you out?
A Battle hasn't known me so long.
Q
A
He saw you down there'
He coiildn't say that.
Q His testimony under oath is that you were down there. Tony
pointed you out, which ;ls another man. Now, you come and say you vreren't
down there; that you were in your bed. Now, we eire going to court on
this and you are going to get up in the court and testify to these facts
and not only are you going to testify to these facts, you are going to
testify that you weren't down there. As a result, 12 men are going to
sit and hear your testimony and Judge whether you were dov/n there or not.
If you were down there you better tell me. If youweren't, youbetter
stick with the story you got. Now, the evidence is that you were down
there and Thomas Battle, a friend of yours, saw you do\/n there and saw
what you did.
A Colonel, sir, I understand that you are apt to do these thing's,
but your way of doing things — you want the facts.
Q That is exactly what I am asking for.
A You don't have to try to trick me into the facts because I am
giving them to you.
Q Do you want to hear Thomas Battle's testimony?
A I want to hear Thomas Battle tell rae that. What Company is
Thomas Battle in or was lie in?
Q He's in the Company that was right next to yours.
A It is perfectly all right. I don't believe he said it though.
Q We will bring him back. I want you to see him yourself and
I want tDlet you hear what he said.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of Pfc. Welter Euffen, taken
at Fort Lawton, Wsahington, On 3 October 19hh,
ty Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q Please state your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Walter Euffen, Pfc, 5689IO23, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lavton, Weshlngton.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
24th Article of War?
A Well, not so familiar with It, but I heard it.
Q I will ejcplain them to you, Walter. (The 2Hh Article of
War was read to the witness) Do you imderstand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the nigi:t of Ik August, v/ere you doim in this area here when
the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A I was living in the first barracks right there, sir.
Q Barracks 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q, Wnat was the first thing that you heard, Walter, concerning
the fight?
A Well, d'jrlng the fight I was in bed asleep.
Q
Q
A
But you heard about it? You heard what was going on outside?
No, sir, I didn't hear anything about it.
Didn't you wake up when all the noise was going on?
Wtien I woke up the Major and MP came in.
What tiae did you go to bed that night?
I guess about 9:50-
Ifnat had you done before you went to bed?
Before I went to bed I finished lettering ay clothes.
Had you been down to the Px that night?
No, sir.
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Q Had you been oTer to the party that was going on over in the
mess hall?
A Well, I went down to the hospital the first part of the night.
Q
A
Q
A
leave .
Q
A
Q
Q
A
Q
A
Who were you staying with down there?
Christopher Columbus Pendelton.
And you left there ah out what time?
Just ahout eight o'clock. The ward boy came and told me to
And you walked back?
Yes, sir.
Where did you come when you came back?
To the barracks .
And when you came back what was happening around the barracks?
Nothing.
And you went in?
Yes, I finished stenciling niy clothes and finished this cap
and my fatigues.
Q After you got to bed, how long was it until you went to
sleep?
A I couldn't tell you directly.
Q Well, you must have knovm how long it took you to go to .sleep
that night?
A I couldn't tell directly. \Ie was laying up in bed talking.
Q Who were you talking to?
A Kurtzberg, Oscar Bolton, Australia Boatland --
Q Australia Boatland slept in the same barracks with you?
A Yes, and Kurtzburg slept in front of me.
Q V/ho woke you up?
A I v/oke up myself. The Major and MP came in by that time.
Q '.Vhat did they say?
A V/ell, I don't know directly what they said but I know he told me
to put out the lights snd cut out the noise.
Q Who was making the noise?
CONFIDENTIAL
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A Some of the other toys .
Q Who was doing the talkiiig that the Mt-Jor was making the
complaint about?
A I don't know.
Q Were there some colored boys in the barracks?
A I* was full of colored boys.
Q You don't know who was talking?
A No, sir.
Q Were the lights on?
A Yes, sir.
Q You heard the talking and noise?
A I was in the bed at the time and after I woke up I was sleepy
and I didn't recognize any of them.
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You didn't recognize any of then?
ITo, sir.
When they said "torn out the lights" what did they do?
I stayed in bed .
Did you get up and turn the lights off?
I don't know who t'orned the lights out.
Did someone turn them out while you were still aweike?
Yes, sir.
And you went back to sleep?
Yes, sir.
The next aiorning wb.en you woke up, did you stand reveille?
Yes, sir.
Q And at reveille didn't someone tell you about the fight that
had gone on?
A Vrnen we got up to stand reveille. Lieutenant Kapitz and t?ie
Captain came around.
C. What did they say about the fight at that time?
A They asked if ejij'-one knew who v.-as down in the fight.
Q Did anyone say they did?
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' A No, sir,
Q Since that time what have you heard about the fight?
A Nothing, sir.
c
3' Q Did you talk to anyone about the fight that morning?
* A No, sir, I was getting ready for the ride.
5:
^ Q When you were getting ready for the ride, didn't someone
7 talk to you about the fight?
8 A No, sir.
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13 Q Is there anything else or any other information which you
■4 want to give me in this case?
'5 A No, sir, not anything I can give you, sir.
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r Further testimony of Pfc Willie Scott,
2 tajcen at Fort Lawton, Vashington, on 3 October
3 19^^, "by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IQD.
4
5 The witness was reminded that he was still
6 under oath and of his rights as a witness.
; si Q Who, since ik August, have you heard discussing the fight?
9! A Well, one "boy was Prevoat. He said he went down there.
'10!
11! Q Willie Prevost?
12 A Eight.
?-.; , 13'
t^^, 14 Q What did Willie say he did down there?
13 A I didn't hear him say what he done down there. He said he was
16 down there.
17
IS Q Who else?
19 A A "boy named Ceaser.
20
Q Johnnie Ceaser?
A Right .
23
24 Q vrnat did he say?
25 A He said he helped an American fellow get away down there.
26
27 Q Hs said he was down there?
28 A Yes .
29
30 Q And who else?
3; A That is Just a"bout all.
32
33 Q Did Eoy Montgomery say something a"bout it?
54 A No, sir.
35
35 Q Eow about Wallace Wooden?
37 A I have never been with him, sir.
33
39 Q Have you heard Herman Johnson, a great big colored boy, say
40 he was dovm there?
41 A He's not in ray Company. I don't know him.
42
43 Q Who else in your Company, Willie?
44 A That is just about all.
45
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Q How atout John Hamilton?
A I don't know much about John Hamilton. I haven't been with
him very much.
Q Willie Basden?
A I never heard him aay anything. He's pretty quiet.
Q Have any of those "boys that have gone overseas, have you heard
any of them talking before they left?
A Wo, sir, I didn't.
Q Now, the night of the fight when youwent back in your barracks
wasn't there some men that came in there and talked what they did?
A I didn't hear that.
Q You didn't hear anyone in the barracks?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear any of the men from the other barracks talking
about the fight?
A No, air, I lives on the hill.
Q V/ere you up there on the hill aj^ound the time the whistle
was blown?
A No, sir, it must have been right here in this barracks.
Q There were two whistles blown weren't there?
A I never did hear any whistle.
Q Is there anything else, Willie, that you would like to tell
me about this case?
A Only thing I would like to know, sir, is what if a man did
not go down there why should he be punished?
CONFIDENTIAL
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(SCOTT) (END)
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' Testimoiiy of Pfc. Aguinaldo Thomas, taken
2; at Fort Lavton, Washington, on 5 October I9UU,
3^ by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
4
^ The witness was sworn.
6!
'' Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization,
8 station.
9 A Aguinaldo Thomas, Pfc, 56856526, 650th Port Company, Fort
'0 Lewton, Washington.
11;
'2 Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
13: 24th Article of War?
A Well, I had it read to me.
^'•^ Q Do you understand it?
'' A Well, I think so, sir.
Q Do you want me to explain it to you?
20 A Yse, sir.
^2 Q I will explain it to you. (The 2l;th Article of War was read
23 to the witness) D^- you understand that?
2^ A Yes, sir.
^^ Q On the night of ih August, what barracks were you sleeping in?
'^^ A I don't know the nui,foer, sir.
H
The black one?
•^'■^ A Yes, one of those hlack barracks.
«!,
Was this it here?
•^" A Yes, I ./as living in Barracks 668.
Q V/hat v/es the first thing that you heard that called your
attention to the fight that was going on?
A There was a lot of racket. The racket woke me up.
ii Then you v/ere in bed at the time the fight started?
A. That's right, sir.
•i And you got up?
A Yes, sir.
ci V,Caen you got up from year bed you looked out no doubt?
CDNFIDENTIAL (^omas)
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'-j^. 1; A I gotup and put on ray clothes and vent down there.
!:" ■• 2
f ■ 3 Q Down around the mess hall, did you?
4 A Eight down in front of the ■barracks, and the First Sergeant
5 was hollering.
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fet, : 8! A Sgt. Aubry.
..: : • ■. ''I
•■"-•• 101 Q Sgt. Aubry was yelling to his men to get tacls: in the harracks?
i;: n| A Yes, so I came "back in the 'barracks. I pulled off my clothes
12: and put a raincoat over my window "because the light was shining in my
13' window from the other h arracks . I put a raincoat over the window to
'.i, 14 keep the light from shining and I covered my head up and went to sleep.
15
16 Q You heard a lot of noise down there didn't you?
17 A Yes, sir.
( p.
19 Z They kept making a lot of noise after you ^-rent "back to "bed?
20 A I don't know. I went to sleep.
21
22 ^ But there was some fighting going on do^ra tliere?
23 A That is ocnething don't Interest rie.
24
25 C, A fight doesn't interest you?
26 A iJo, sir.
27
28 3 A fight that friends in your Company are engaged in with
29 Italians didn't interest you?
30 A They didn't do nothing to me.
31
32 Q They did something to the Company didn't they?
33 AX don't know.
34
35 Q What do you think all the "boys turned out for?
36 A I really don't know.
37
38 Q Over half cf the 650th and b^lsl- were <:i:wn In the fight.
3S A I wasn't down there. I don't know.
40
41 Q^ yell, youvent back in your barracks and then laid down and
'*2 went back to sleep?
■i3 A Yes. '
44
45 Q^ When you first got up and went outside of the buildir^ yous8w
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a 'bunch of "boys running?
A I didn't see an/oody. Tiie Sgt. was hollering "get hack in
the barracks."
Q And wasn't a whistle hlowing when you got up?
A I didn't heai- no whistle. I was asleep. They made a lot of
racked .
Q After yougot up and went outside you saw all these people
gathered around tlie tuess hall. Did you see anybody going down there you
knew?
A No, sir.
Q. Did you recognize anybody fron where youstood?
KO; sir.
•^ Pjid youdidn't go dowi there?
A Ho, air.
Q: 1*0 do yea iaicv triat knows tlist ycu didn't go down there?
A I didn't pay no attention to see who seen me cr nothing. I
didn't pay any attention. I Just corae on back and got in bed.
^ Did Sjt. Aubry see ycu corae back and gc to bed?
A I don't know. He x:aa hollering to all the aen. He said,
;, They all didn't go back though.
A I really don't know. I corue back in.
^ Did you stand out there a v/hile?
A !Io, I cone right back on in.
Q After you went back in and laid down,, how long do ycuestimate
tl'iat this loud noise kept up down there?
A I don't knov/. I went tc sleep.
1 The noise woke you up didn't it?
A Yes, sir.
?„ Didn't the noise grow louder and Icuder after ycu awakened?
A The First Sergeant quieted then dovm.
They didn't ajxlot that bunch around Building TOG:
I lived in CCc.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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\- Q I know you did but it is only a Jump and a holler from Building
2 700 isn't it?
3. A It is right across the street.
5; Q Wot over 50 yards?
e'; A It is not that far from the mess hall. The First Sergeant
71 was hollering to his men to get back in the barracks.
8{
9| Q That was around your barracks and there was a lot of yelling
10! and hollering around 7OO wasn't there?
n| A No, sir.
la-
ta! Q Well, what woke you up -- some noise out there?
14 A It was out in front of our barracks. The Sgt. was hollering,
15 "get back In the barracks, get back in the barracks."
16
17 Q You ^uet went back in end went to alee??
18 A Sure.
19
20 Q You never had any trouble going to sleep?
21 A No. I stayed up S'jnday night and I was tired.
22
23 Q Lets?
24 A Well, about ten o'clock, I guess.
25
26 Q What time do you usually go to bed?
27 A I don't kiow, I generally go pretty early,
28
■29 Q About what time?
30. A Well, I wouldn't know. We iiad been busy all week stamping clothes,
31
32 Q Do you know what time ell this noise was going on doT-na there?
33 A No .
34
35 Q 1)0 you think it vms after ten o'clock?
35 A I wouldn't know. I didn't have no watch.
37
3S Q You know that you had been asleep?
3'3 A Yes .
40
41 Q And the noise out in front cf the barracks and the noise
^^2 around 7OO woke you up?
"3 A Yes .
44
"^^ Q You got uo and dressed?
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i; A Wait, let me straighten the noise. The noise that woke me ,
2 up was out in front of my haiTacks. . '
3
4' Q And you got up, dressed and started toward building 700?
5' A I got out in the street to see what it was all about and the
6; Sgt . was hollering "get back in the barracks . "
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8j Q But you intended to go down and see what the noise was about?
9| A Ho.
10
111 Q Why did you dress?
12! A To see what it was about.
13i
14 Q You could have stuck your head out the window end seen what
15, was going on outside the barracks?
16^ A I was on that side (indicating) and couldn't see what v/as
17' going on.
18'
19' Q The noise was in front of your barracks and all you would hare
20' had tc do was step out and determine what the noise was there, so wriy
21 did ;you cress?
22 A 1 put en 3iy clothes to see what it was all about.
23
24 :; You put on your clothes to walk to the front cf the building
25' and see what it was all about?
26 A IIo, sir.
27
28 Q You didn't put on your clothes to go down tc that Italian Area?
29 A Those Italians didn't do nothing to me. Something my mother
30 always told me to stay out of bad compaxiy £ind mind your own business ajid
31 -^oxx. get along.
32
33 Q That's the reason you didn't go down there?
34 A Yes. I appreciate what she told me.
35
36 Q Didn't you realize when you were out in front of that building
37 that there was a great bit of nois going on around building 7OO. Didn't
38 you hear that?
39 A Hope. The noise I heard was out in front of our barracks.
4(1
^^ Q, Didn't you iiear some boys breaking down a fence around 7OO?
42 A Kope .
43
C- Didn't you heer them talking loud end hollering and saying
'oeat
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A No, sir. I was sleeping.
Q Ehen you got up and went outside they were already fighting
down in the Italian Area.
A I don't know. I didn't go down there.
Q. Well, did you hear a lot of noise in this area here?
A No, sir,
Q Couldn't you hear the windows and lights heing "broken?
A Nope .
Q Couldn't you hear people screaming and hollering down there?
A Nope .
Q, Psii you never heard eny screaming and hollering all night long?
A Nope .
Q Now, after the fight was over, was there an^rone that came 'oack
into your barracks?
A I don't know. I wes sleeping. The Sgt. was hollering "get
hack in the "barracks" end I corae hack in and vent to sleep.
Q You don't remember when the fight was over then?
A I don't remember when the fight was over. I came back and
went to sleep.
Q Now, after the fright was over and you woke up the next morning,
who did you hear talking about the fight?
A I heard them talking about it, but I didn't pay no attention.
Q Who did you hear talking about it?
A I didn't hear no one. Just a bunch of them talking. We had
to pack up our bags and get ready to go.
Q After you got packed you found out you weren't going?
A Nope. We had reveille that morning and come on back and cleened
up the barracks and vent over and took a short arm Inspection and we
thought we were still going.
Q After that you learned you weren't going?
A I thought ve were still going,
Q And after you were in the stockade, you learned that you
weren't going?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(THOMAS)
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1 A Yes, sir.
2
-. -^ Q And a.bout that time the boys began to talk about why they
4 weren't going and why you were being held here, didn't you?
5 A Yes, on account of the fight. I didn't know it was that bad
6: myself.
7|
8: Q Who did you hear talking about the fight? ; ,
,• . Sj A I never heard anyone.
^.;. 10'
11 Q You mean you hadn't heard anyone talking about the fight?
12 A I didn't pay any attention. I was tending to my own business
I ■ I3i and I didn't pay any attention to that.
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Teetimony of Pvt. John B. Brovn, taken
at Fort Lavton, Washington, on 3 Octoter 19kk,
ty Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The vitness vas sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A John E. Brown, Pvt., 42107886, 651st Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2Uth Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
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A
Q
A
IVhere did you sleep the night of the fight?
I slept in town at the hotel.
You were down town?
Yes, sir.
You weren't here when the fight went on?
No, sir.
How did you happen to get out of camp?
I borrowed a pass from a sergeant in the staging area.
You borrowed one?
Yes, I used his pass, but he went out without a pass.
What was his name?
Sgt. Herbert E. Evans.
Q
A
How did you get out?
I went out and got on the bus with his pass. The MP only
looked at the date on the pass. I went on his pass and he came and
got on the bus. I didn't know whether he had another pass or not, but I
know he used his.
Q Where did you go after you left the post?
A Sir, we went down there to where the #19 bus makes the stop.
We caught the #7 bus and went to Jackson.
Q
A
What time did you leave the post?
It was before chow. It could have been around 3:50 or k o'clock
CDNFIDENTIAL
1378
(JOHN B. BBOWN)
V^^- ,k'_-.v,ii p,
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in the afternoon.
Q What time did you get hack that night?
A I didn't come hack until the next morning. I wasn't even here
for reveille.
Q Weren't you afraid that the Company Commander would miss you
in making the check of men who were supposed to he in camp?
A I know they missed me hecause I wasn't there for reveille.
Q Was it your intent to miss the boat and not go?
A No, sir, I didn't have any intentions of missing the boat.
I knew what time the Company Commander said we would be pulling out.
Q There were orders there that no one would leave the post
weren't there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you knew you were violating those orders didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you knew if you got caught you would be punished for it?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you went anyway?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you stayed all night?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the girl's name that you had?
A I don't know her name.
Q Where had you met her?
A I seen her walking up the street.
Q Had you had several dates with her previous to this night?
A No, sir, I walked by her house with her.
Q How did you know where to find her when you got down town?
A That night I walked by her house and I was supposed to meet her
at the Anderson Hotel.
Q What time did you meet her there?
A Sir, I met her — when I first got there she wasn't there. I
CDNFIDENTIAL
(JOHN E. BEOWN)
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stood there and waited and I went to the theater. She was In the theater.
Q And you met her in the theater?
A Yes, air.
Q How did you find her?
■ A Well, sir, it might have been a coincidence, but she was coming
from the ladies room when I was coming in from the street.
Q And then you went in and sat down with her?
A Yes, I sat down. I brought some candy first and sat down.
Q Had she already paid for her ticket?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that was Sgt. Evans?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where is he now?
A I don't know, sir. I haven't seen him.
Q What is the number of his Company?
A He's in the Staging Area. The guys in different Companies
come from overseas and expect to go back.
Q Do you know his first name?
A Herbert Evans .
Q Now, after you took the girl in the theater, dr'.d you stay
in there until the show was over?
A No, sir, we went out. We didn't stay mtil the finish.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
You left before it was over?
Yes, something happened to the girl and we had to take her out.
Where did you take her?
We put her in a taxi and went to the Coast Hotel.
What did you do there?
It was kind of hard for me to get a room and I gave the girl
three dollars and she went in and got the room.
Q And you stayed together?
A Yes, me and her and the sergeant stayed together.
I'*
[ 'V,-
CDNFIDENTIAL
..380
(JOHN E. BROWN.
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^7 ^ '^^ ^
By^NARA Date^P^'^^OZ
Keproauced at Ihe National Arcn
itamim^. ~^.»iiiUltn^-
85
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Q Which one slept with her?
A We both slept with her.
Q You don't know her name?
A No, sir, I don't, hut I know her.
Q Do you know the number of the room that you and the sergeant
and the girl stayed in?
A I am not sure, but it was five.
Q Eoom five in the Coast Hotel?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you register in or did the girl register in?
A She did.
Q Did she register all three of you?
A No, sir, I don't think so.
Q Did you see the landlady that night?
A No, sir, I didn't see the landlady, but I saw the cousin of
the landlady.
Q Does she run the house?
A Yes, she rents the rooms.
Q Were there several other girls there?
A Not as I know of. Sir.
Q Have you seen this girl since that night of the ll«-th?
A No, sir, I haven't got a chance ta see her. I have been in the
stockade and the hospital.
Q Now, after you stayed all night there, did you and the sergeant
come back the next morning together?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you come back on the bus?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you enter in the normal way as the bus entered the gate?
A I was up in front of the bus and he sat in the back so when
the MP checked he checked my pass and the sergeant came in because they
didn't take him off the bus.
CDNFIDENTIAL
^- 3 8 1
(JOHN R. BROWN)
^-JJ»
r.k.-*m-
mt^:i-'c n^-:-'
)-^ ^li*
m'i^
«*;5«Ki>.
K^:
0-
Keproaucea at me Naiionai Archf
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "/ 3 '^'^^ -
*
8h
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q You mean you sat up in fi*ont of the tus and they checked your pass
while you vere on the "bus and the sergeemt was outside?
A No, the sergeant was on the bus sitting in the "back.
J, '■■ ^
Q Didn't they check his pass?
A That is what gets me. I don't know how he got "back.
Q What did the Company Commander say to you when you got hack?
A He didn't say anything to me, sir.
Q Did the First Sergeant say anything to you?
A The First Sergeemt knows I was absent for reveille, but I
didn't have a chance to see him.
Q Did he ever say anything to you after that?
A My sergeant asked me wasn't I out for reveille and I told him
I had been in town and he told me I had to get the rest of my equipment —
he told me where I -^as going I would have to draw my equipment.
4
Q Later then did you draw your equipment? '
A No, sir.
Q They sent you to the stockade before you drew it?
A No, they had me on detail helping to load the trucks and after
that I went to the stockade.
Q What was the first incident that you heard which informed you
that there had been a fight the night before?
A When I came back with Sgt. Harding, I looked down and saw the
windows had been broken and I asked him what happened and he said they
had a fight down there. "They had a fight" I said, and he said "yes."
He said, "You are lucky you haven't been here." I told him I was glad I
wasn ' t .
Q What was the next thing you heard about the fight?
A Well, after that, sir, like you hear a lot of boys talking
that they had a fight down there.
0 Did Sgt. Harding say he had been in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Who was the first man that you heard say he had been in the figlit?
A I didn't even hear anybody say it.
Q I don't mean that morning, I mean later.
CDNFIDENTIAL
..382
(JOHN R. BEOWN)
■,=&■-
;fe^.
-.iliC.;
gi^sm-^^''-
-■its
^'^
tr
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "J 3 ^'^^^
Reproduced at the National Archiv
..vJi-.,«**«V--
85
^CDNFIDENTiAL #
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Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
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Q
Q
A
A
I haven't heard anybody say it. That's the truth.
Do you know Thomas Battle?
Yes, I know him.
Did you see him that night?
I don't get along with him.
\\/hy?
I never had anything to do with him. I Just never did like him.
Have you ever heen around Thonaa much?
Wo, sir, I never have.
You and Thomas ever had any fights?
Uo, sir.
Did you see Thomas that night?
No, sir.
When was the last time you saw Thomas "before the fight?
The last time was about a couple days "before.
Do you know whether he vae in or not?
No, sir, I don't.
Q
Well, I might inform you that Thomas Battle has put you in
the fight.
A Well, sir, if he put me in it is all right with me, but I know
for a fact I wasn't there. I think if I could get to to\m I could prove
it to you or anybody else.
Q Well, we will work on that side of it for you. But, as it is
now, you are going to have to be tried, Jolin, for peirticipating in the
riot on the night of August l^+th against the Italian Quartermaster Company
because you have been identified by ThoiiBS Battle as being down there.
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, if you were doim there, why, I would like to know it
because we might be able to get some information about what you saw
the people doing.
A No, sir, I told the Major over here that I wasn't dov/n there.
If you prove me guilty, I will be proven guilty for something I didn't do,
which is all right with me because I am not in a position to prove that
I am innocent.
CDNFIDENTIAL
:383
(JOM R. BROWN)
:,fe-V*;: .^^ M'^-
r
' V
i' *
Reproduced al me National Arctiiv
DECLASSIFIED
Authority J J-'^^^
By^NARA Date'^D^'^/'^Z
^Af-'i' *t- 't^
^1^
n
36
^CDNFIDENTIAL •
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Q Well, it is as much our duty as it is anyone else's.
A Well, a man has got to "be proven guilty before he is guilty.
Q It ia our duty, however, to find out if you are innocent just
as much as it is our duty to find out if you are guilty. We will make
Just a strenuous effort to find out you are innocent as to prove that
you are guilty.
A Yes, I understand that.
Q Is there any further information that you want to give us
in this case?
A No, the only thing is when I first came in the Army I came in
to fight for what I thought was right.
(Eecords show Sgt. Herbert E. Evans, 37607558, arrived
on this post (Fort Lawton) 25 May as a casual, left for furlough
51 Mey, arrived back from furlough 2k June. Transferred to
San Francisco 50 August.)
(Present address:
Herbert E. Evans, Sgt., 576O7558,
APO kl&9, c/o Postmaster,
San Francisco, California.)
CONFIDENTIAL
^384
(JOHN E. BEOW) (EMj
*,4 . , -^'^
«
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '/^ ^'
By^NARA Date'^^^l^^/^Z
Reproduced at the National Arcl^iv
. . MWff'iljfflfc'iiil-*.'
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Further teatimoiv of Pvt. Wallace A.
Wooden, taken at Fort Lawton, Washington, on
3 October 19^, by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L.
Williams, IGD.
The witness was reminded that he was still
under oath and of his rights as a witness.
Q Wallace, since the last time we talked with you, we have had
several witnesses that have identified you as heiiag doim in the fight
and the part that you played in it. You heard Prevost and what he said
about you did you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Battle has testified what you were doing. Now, is there any
part of your testimony that you would like to change?
A I still hold my same statement.
Q You want to leave it as it was?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. That's all.
b.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1385
(wooden) (end)
(Si ,:'
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J -^^^^^
Keproaucea ai me National Arcni
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^CDNFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of Prt. Willis C. Collins,
taken at Fort Lewton, Washington, on 3 October
19^1l-, "by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
•
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Willis C. Collins, Pvt., 369'<-5796, 650th .Port Company.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2l+th Article of War?
A No, sir, I don't know it.
Q I will explain them to you. (The 24th Article of War was
read eind explained to the vrltness) . Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of li)- August 19^'+^ were you in Fort Lawton when
the colored soldiers attacked the 2Sth Italian Quartermaster Company?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
I was, sir.
What barracks were you sleeping in that night?
619.
619 or 719?
This corner barracks -- 719 •
V/hat was the first instance that called your attention to
the fight?
A Well, sir, the fight I didn't know anything about until the
next morning.
Q Were you asleep?
A Yes, sir.
Q You slept through the whole thing?
A Through the whole thing.
Q You didn't know anything about it until the next morning?
A Until the next morning.
Q Where were you sleeping in the barracks?
A The corner, on the ground floor.
CDNFIDENTIAL
138&
(COLLINS)
■&
fe-
DECLASSIFIED
73^0:
Authority__
Reproauceo ai me Naiionai ftrcniv
.-.aHc*(i.JW
89
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Q Who else slept near you?
A Harold Banks, George Jackson, Joe Martin.
Q Who else slept on that floor that you know?
A I couldn't call the names. >
Q Of those whom you named, did you see any of them that night
after you went to hed?
A After I went to hed I saw them. After I went to sleep I
don't know whether they got up or not.
Q You don't know whether they got up or stayed there?
A I don't know whether they got up or stayed there.
Q The next morning you heard them talking about the fight?
A I was in hed and I heard the Lieutenant and Captain talking
ahout the fight.
Q Lieutenant Capitz came in the room?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you still in hed?
A Yes, sir.
Q Didn't you make reveille?
A No, sir.
Q Why didn't you?
A I worked at night.
Q And Lieutenant Kapitz was talking to the Tjoys about it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And after reveille was over the boys came back Inside?
A No, sir, they came back inside and went to chow.
Q And there was some talk about it?
A I couldn't definitely tell what it was.
Q You heard some talk about it?
A I heard some talk about it.
Q Who was that that was talking?
A I don't know, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(COLLINS)
K-^;*-^ '
A-t' .—
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^'j3 ^0^3
Keproduced at the National Arch
'^->usjk«iaiMc»i«)^-
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Q Nov, after they talked a while, they went out to the mess?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then, later on weren't you put in the stockade with them?
A Eight, sir.
Q Since you have "been in the stockade you have heard considerahle
talk about it?
A No, sir, they Just forgot ahout the stuff.
Q You mean they just forgot ahout it?
A Nohody even mentions it.
Q Didn't you hear people talking about it when they came back '
from talking down here? ■ ; •;
A Just what you ask them and how you accuse them of things .
Q They never tell you that they tell us what they say?
A No, sir. .'
Q Do you know Wallace Wooden?
A No, sir.
Q Did he ever tell you what he said?
A No, sir.
Q But you can identify Wallace Wooden?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, since you have been in the guardhouse, you have heard
no conversation about this?
A Not at all, sir.
Q And that is all you know about the fight?
A That's all I know about the fight.'
Q
All right. That is all.
^.''.
''i. .'>'
CDNFIDENTIAL
1388
(COLLINS) (END)
.:m Jfe^StoAt.-^ - **• *'
B.^-,
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Reproduced at Ifie National Arctiiv
DECLASSIFIED
'22503 s
Authority
91
^ CDNFIDENTIAL
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2.
^i
4
5
61
7!
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Testimony of Sgt. Fletcher Carter, taken
at Fort Lswton, Washington, on 5 October 19kk,
"by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
■The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Fletcher Carter, Sgt., 56897767, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2l)-th Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of Ik August 19^^ you were in your area when there
W8IS a fight "between your Company and the 28th Italian Company, weren't
you?
A No, sir.
Q
Where were you?
A
I was in town, sir.
Q
You had gone to town?
A
Yes, sir.
Q Wasn't there a rule against going to town on the night before
you departed for overseas?
A Well, everyone was supposed to have been restricted .
Q Did you have a pass?
A No, I didn't have a pass.
Q How did you go to town?
A I just went AWOL.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
You are a sergeant, aren't you?
Yes, sir.
Did you stay all night there?
Yes, I did.
What time didyou leave?
Leave where, sir?
CDNFIDENTIAL
138B
(CAETEE)
^-:
-^■. %.
SJ-'-f-'
^<^i;-.
k^-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^/ 3 ^ ^^ ^
By^NARA Date'^t)n7/0Z
Keproaucea at tre National Arcniv
- a«iito4ii;i««eswBi«w«'"-«''''
92
<«*^CnNFIDENTiAL •
. 1
i Q
2
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3
!
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5
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29
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32
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38
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39
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43
Q
44;
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45i
The post?
I left the post about twenty minutes after nine, I guess.
What time did you return to the post?
Five o'clock in the morning.
Did you go to town by bus?
Yes, I did.
Hhere did you get your pass to get out of the gate?
I didn't have a pass.
Hov did you get out?
Through the fence.
You crawled throiigh the fence?
Yes, sir.
Where did you go after you got out?
Got a bus .
Where did you catch the bus?
Outside the post gate.
IVhere did you get off?
I got off the bus in town.
Transferred to another bus?
Yes, sir.
And where did you go?
I went to town on Jackson Street.
And you got off the bus at Jackson Street?
Yes, sir.
Did you meet someone there?
No, not when I got there I didn't.
Later, did you meet someone?
Yes, sir, I did.
Who?
I met a friend's wife and his sister.
. f
CONFIDENTIAL
^39U
(carter)
..« ^.^iM.
fe-«:^-A^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^"^3 -^033
Bv^3pNARADate^fc^'^/^Z
Keproduced at me National Arcnivi
'.'Oionvi^f'tto '
95
• CDNFIDENTIAL
» t
1 -^
2
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3
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4
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5
A
€
J
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8
A
9
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11
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42
43
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^■^■'"*"
What were their names?
Millie Mae Murphy.
Does she live in Seattle?
She and hia wife live in Seattle.
What is his wife's name?
Mrs. Murphy. I can't give you her first name.
What is his name?
Woodrow Murphy.
Does he live in Seattle?
He's in the hospital. He's a soldier, too.
In the hospital here at the post?
Yes, at Station #2.
He's in there now?
Yes, sir, he is.
He was with you that night?
Wo, I had been to the hospital to visit him.
And you went down and met those two girls there?
Yes, air.
Why did you go down there?
Well, to meet them.
After you met them, what did you do?
I escorted them home.
What else?
I sit there and talked for a while until about one o'clock.
Where did you go then?
Then I got me a room at the hotel.
Who stayed with you?
I stayed by myaelf .
This Murphy girl didn't stay with you?
No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
.:3Fii
(CAE?rER)
•■ii,.
"*■ ^i^i0-^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '/^ ^"^^
By^NARA Datei^2(i2!^
Reproduced at the National Arche
.-V i^^ii^tt^..-.
9k
^CDNFIDENTIAL
t- '^
'.■ .V
1
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Q At what hotel did you stay?
A I don't know the name, but it is on South Washington.
Q Is it the Coast Hotel?
A I don't know whether it is the Coast or not, sir.
Q Do you know what number room you stayed In? •
A No, I don't recall the nur/iber of the room.
Q You stayed there until the next morning?
A I did.
Q You left the hotel at about what time?
A Oh, about if:iiO.
Q You didn't stay in the hotel very long, did you?
A Well, until I could get a bus the next morning.
Q And no woman stayed in the room that you had in the hotel?
A I stayed by myself.
Q And you got up about four o'clock and started back to the
post?
A It was a little later. I got up about i^:20 and I left there
about k:kO.
Q You got out here about five o'clock?
A It was a little after five.
Q Did you come in on the bus?
A ETo, I didn't come in the post on the bus.
Q Did you crawl under the fence again the same as youdid
going out?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you reported back to your Company?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did your First Sergeant know you were absent?
A No, sir.
Q Did anyone else know that you were absent?
A No, sir, I don't think so.
Q Did you report back to the Company before reveille?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(C.AJjrEE)
.33z
*•■■:
DECLASSIFIED
Authority 'Z^' ^^-^
By53pNARADate^^o(imZ
KeproOuced at the National Arctir
M^i^ktsMih,.!,»i»^^m'^
h-
95
y V
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A I did.
Q Did you stand reveille?
A I did.
Q At reveille did you learn atout this fight?
A No, I didn't learn atout the fight until later.
Q Who first told you ahout the fight?
A No one in particular. I heard the Captaintalklng and he was
talking to the group. That's when I learned ahout it.
Q After the Captain talked to the group, wasn't there some
discussion of it as to who was in it?
A They didn't discuss it with me.
Q Since tliat time have you talkedto any of the Sergeants of the
Compan^??
A Well, before we were brought in here I asked the sergeant
what happened and they didn't seem to know, so there wasn't any heads or
tails to It.
Q Hfave you since been in the guardhouse and talked to any of
the men about being in the fight?
A I have asked several fellows did they know what happened and nobody
seems to know what happened .
Q, No one told you they were in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Have you talked to Wallace Wooden?
A No, sir.
Q Have you heard Wallace discussing it?
A No, sir.
Q Wallace didn't tell you that he was down there and what he did?
A No, sir.
Q He didn't tell you that he told us that you were down there
in the fight?
A Well, I an afraid that nobody can truthfully say I was there
because I wasn't. I can't be in two places at one time.
Q So, if Wallace said you were there, he doesn't know what he's
CDNFIDENTIAL
..393
(CAMEE)
-Ai ...■•
f-;-i. ■'■'■. ^
^4 It.
:m
DECLASSIFIED
Authority ^7 1 ^^ ^
Keproaucea ai me Nanonai Arcniv
..<IMii»-
96
^CONFIDENTIAL •
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doesn't know what he's talking atout.
A Hot only Wallace, tut anyone else that is saying anything about it,
In the first place, I don't see hov/ a man can be brought into something
and brought into all this stuff and not know anything about it.
Q The two girls whom you have testified that you met on the night
of Ik August 19kk, the two Murphy girls, they both work at the Eichmond
Laundry?
A Kew Richmond Laundry. That's right, sir.
Q Is there anything else that you want to tell us about this case?
A Well, there is nothing else I .vant to say.
Q Did you have some particular purpose in mind in meeting these
girls that night. Had you planned in advance to meet them?
A Well, no, I hadn't planned in advance.
Q You had no date with either of them?
A No, sir.
Q What did you have in mind when you went to town?
A When I went to the hospital, Mrs. Murphy's husband said that
she had gotten a letter and wondered if I could get it to him and I said
I could. He gave me the letter and I told him I could deliver it for
him.
Q Had you told him before he delivered the letter to you that
you had in mind going to town?
A Well, not exactly.
Q Well, how do you know you were going to tovm?
A He and I were talking and he mentioned "I got a letter belongs
to my wife and I opened it by mistake and I would like to get it to her."
I said, "I will see if I can get it to her."
Q Then you didn't have in mind going to town until he gave you
the letter?
A No, six; 1 didn't.
Q Then, it was the letter that ca, sed you to go to town?
A Well —
Q You knew this Murphy girl didn't you?
A Yes, I knew the family before.
f
CONFIDENTIAL
1334
(CAETEE)
* .^.
DECLASSIFIED
Authority """/l -^C3 >
rsepiuuuceo ai me iNaiionai rtrciw
■*l--i6«i,.J...^a.v -- .«»■.**
97
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Q Didn't you went to meet her and have a date with her? .
A Not that night anyvay.
Q Didn't you think vhen you went to town yuu were going to meet
her and see her?
A I went to see them; yes, sir, of course.
Q She did go up to the room with you?
A Well, no, air. I say "no, sir" she did not. Well, after all,
sir, that's rather personal. That's a personal matter.
Q She did go up with you didnt she?
A I wouldn't say she did.
CDNFIDENTIAL
.335
(CAE5TEE) (EJJD)
u .-■
i»
■•> ■^■
...7 ., ifts»a/.^
'x: v^^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority / J'^^^^
Bv^3pNARADate^fc^'^/^Z
Keproduced at Ihe National Archr
iMn*/!ilt^4^im^
1> 98
^ CONFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of Sgt. Theodore T. Davis,
taJcen at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October
19^, by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full naaie, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Theodore T. Dsvis, Sgt., 38561556, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2i)-th Article of War?
A No, sir.
Q I will explain them to you? (The 2l4-th Article of War was
read axid explained to the witness) Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, Sergeant, on the night of lU August 19^^ were you in
Fort Lawton when there was a fight between the colored soldiers and the
Italians?
A I was, sir.
Q Whatbarracks do you sleep in?
.A It is 667.
Q Iifhat was the first incident that called your attention to the
fight on the night of the l4th?
A I had no intentions whatever . I was in the barracks .
Q What was the first thing that you heard about it?
A It was a scrap between the Italians and the while and colored
men.
Q Vflio told you?
A Some of the boys came in the barracks.
Q Who were those people?
A I don't know, I was in bed. I just heard the rumor among
the boys gathered in the barracks .
Q And a lot of noise going on outside?
A Yes, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
13%
((DAVIS)
;>... i4i::^-i^lr^^
iC^
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "J 3^-
By^lpNARA Date_2fc[l2!2j
Keproduced al the National Arctiiv
.3.?,i«aiTin«ii<if'. ■StUMr-J-'f' ■ N.-.
99
CDNFIDENTIAL •
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Q Did you get up?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q You remained in "bed all during the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did the First Sergeant come in?
A The First Sergeant came in after everything had quieted down
and ordered the men to put out the lights.
Q Is that Sgt. Cahral?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were the lights turned out?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before the lights were turned out, weren't there several of
the men of the 651st that came to the barracks who had "been in the fight?
A All of them returned, I imagine, hut I didn't pay any attention.
Q You are the sergeajit of the platoon, and when they camein and
started talking you surely Imew who was talking.
A I will tell you. Major, I didn't pay any attention to them
"because the fact is I thought the men was out there having a little scrap
■between themselves .
Q You heard all this noise though,
A Well, I didn't pay any attention to it "because I was tired out
helping the men and showing the men in my section how to pack their
duffle hags and getting ready to move out of the section the next day.
Q Well, since the night of the fight, you have no douht heard
quite a bit of conversation about the fight. Who have you heard
discussing it?
A Well, since I have been with the boys in the stockade, perhaps
all of them discussed it.
Q particularly, what conversations have you heard?
A Well, just discussing the fight and saying that some of the
people down here seem to want to say that they was causing this man
being hung which they knew nothing of it and, of course, some boys threw
some bricks through the windows.
Q Who was that?
A I Couldn't recall any names.
Some of them seem to think that
CDNFIDENTIAL
(DAVIS)
:3B
~}
■ •'*« '.'.■■-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_'7l^0^3
Bv^3pNARADate^fc^l^/^Z
Keproaucea ai tne National Arctw
„.■ ,.6(att«BiaSJ*«*» '-■"*'«■ -^
r
100
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some of the 1)0/8 have gone with the Company and they kept some of the
innocent men Ijack here.
Q They didn't call any names?
A I haven't heard any names.
Q You haven't heard a man admit he was down there?
A They just say some of the men whom they think was down there
that night has gone with the Company. Some of the "boys that they might
have thought was involved in it.
Q Didn't they name any?
A I haven't heard aiay.
Q Who were the people that you heard talking?
A Practically all the men discuss it.
Q Name some of them that you heard discussing it.
A I think practically all of them.
Q Practically all that's in the guardhouse.
A They seem to think that it was something unjustly down toward
them.
Q Well, I suppose if they come down here and give me the names
of these people we can certainly clear this matter up.
A I suppose so.
Q I hope I have made clear to you that if you could give me some
names of those who were down there, or thenames of those who were not
down there, why, I could certainly go further into that and determine
whether to release them or hold them for further investigation.
A Colonel, to tell you the truth, the matter hasn't involved me
to pay that much attention to it.
Q Well, you certainly have been in the guardhouse now ahout four
or five weeks. You are q^uite involved in that way, iaren't you?
A I am quite involved in that way. I feel that I had nothing to
do with it, si I really don't bother to go to any trouble to try and
find out. As far as my part of it, I had nothing to do with it. The
night of the fight I was at my barracks and the next day I went to the
hospital for treatments and I think I made that statement before down at
Q What was the matter?
A I had gonorrhea.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(DAVIS)
^'■ii^i^^--
-. --*5*r..=*»?'
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_27_2_^^2__
r^epruuuueu di ine i^diiufidi rtrtm
.if..Lilii(i^Afe'ii' f"'"" --'-**^'-"---
101
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Q Where did you get it — down town?
A No, it was an old case.
Q Is there anything else, whether I have asked you or not, that
you want to tell us?
A Wo, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
:.399
(DAVIS) (END)
m.^
' ^■^v.ar^
R;c.-d^sif^--ti^
^*Vv .-
y -
Keproduced at the National Arctiivi
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "jll ^^33
By^NARA Date^t)^i:^/OZ
102
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Testimony of Pvt. J. D. Horton, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October 19hk,
by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A J. D. Horton, Pvt., 36897568, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
. ■ ' •■
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2Uth Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you present here on the post the night the colored soldiers
attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q Where were you when you first heard of the fight?
A Inbed .
Q In what barracks do you sleep?
A In 719.
Q And who sleeps next to you?
A John Young.
Q And who above you?
A To tell you the truth, I don»t know the fellows so much. I
always had a bad headache aind suffered with my head and I never did take
up much time. I have always been sick and I have apretty bad rememberance
for the last three or four years to tell you the truth. Major.
Q On the night of the fight, what was the first thing you heard?
A I was awakened by some noise. You know, it looked like it
was making a lot of noise.
Q And you went outside to see what it was?
A No, sir, I sure didn't.
Q What did you do?
A I turned over and asked John Young and he said, "Well, some of
the boys and the Italians are out there fighting." I said, "Well, that
don't concern me", and I turned over and I guess I laid there about five
CDNFiDENTIAL
1400
(EOBTOK)
:J&- ..;
m
■'^v'- ■■•-''
mr
h?*^"
•:■■ S-
DECLASSIFIED
Authority
iv))iiuuw;eu « uie ndognai /vera
a 'i
103
CDNFIDENTIAL
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or ten minutes and I went back to sleep.
Q Vnat was the next thing that you heard about It?
A Well, I didn't hear anything until sometime later when I heard
Lieutenant Kapitz speak about it.
Q What did he say about it?
A Ke said you guys are satisfied or something because some men
got hurt and cut up.
Q Did he say one of them was hung?
A He did say something about some kind of hajiging or something.
Q What was said there in the Company about it?
A Well, I didn't hear anything in the Company about it.
Q Didn't any of the boys discuss it?
A I didn't hear them. I can't hear so good.
0 After the fight was over they discussed it didn't they?
A I didn't hear anything about it.
Q You mean up in the barracks you didn't hear anything about it?
A That is right.
Q Didn't Young discuss it with you that night?
A Young sure didn't.
Q Well, after youwere put in the stockade, did they discuss
it there?
A Wo, sir.
Q Haven't you heard anything about it since?
A I sure haven't; no, sir.
Q Hobody ever said anything about it?
A In fact, I mostly stay in bed all the time. I staffer all the
time. I can't hear so good. In fact, I am hardly ever around in the
baarracks. Any of the boys will tell you that.
Q You didn't go down that night?
A No, sir.
Q Approximately how many boys went down there?
A I don't know, sir, I didn't go.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1401
(hoeton)
i;f
Keproduced al the Naiionai Archu
DECLASSIFIED
Authority_22-2_SllZ__
loll
CDNFIDENTIAL ^
1
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
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11
12
13
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Q But you saw a bunch of them going didn't you?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Didn't you look out the window?
A I Just turned over and asked the fellow what was the matter. I
was sick at the time.
Q Hadn't a bunch of them gathered outside of building 719?
A I don't know, sir.
Q Couldn't you see that mesa hall over in front of the building?
A I didn't look up. I didn't get out of my bed.
Q You heard them knocking the boards off the fence.
A I didn't know any boards were knocked off.
Q You knew Willie Montgomery got hit didn't you?
A The next day, yes, sir.
Q You didn't know it that night?
A No, sir.
Q How old are you?
A 36. I was 56 on the 15th of last month.
Q Is there anything else, whether I have asked you or not, that
you want to tell me about this case?
A No, sir; I don't. I don't know anything about it.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(HOETON) (END)
1402
Keprooucea at me National Arcni
DECLASSIFIED
7 3^0
-3 3
Authority
105
^ CDNFIDENTIAL «*
* 'I
2i
3i
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Testimony of Sgt. El.lftry Mitchell, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on J October 19^4,
"by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State yourfiai name, grade, serial nuinber, organization
and station.
A Ellery Mitchell, Sgt., 585U67UO, 650th Port Coapany, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2Uth Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you present in Fort Lawton on the night of lij- August 19l+lj.
when the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
\Jh&t were you doing?
Gambling.
Wlio with?
Pvt. Spikes, Pvt. Mitchell and Sgt. Martin.
Anyone else?
A No, sir. There were guite a few around the game, but I wouldn't
know who was. We were the main ones doing the gambling.
Q
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Did you play very long?
We continued playing until four o'clock in the morning.
Did you continue playing during the fight?
In my barracks .
What barracks?
675.
That Is the black barracks?
Yes, right on the road.
As you all played there you heard this noise going on?
Yes, sir.
Q Did any of you stop playing?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1403
(MITCHELL)
■jU;X"-<;
• ; '-, .«*.'.:-rip
*;•'-■**'-"
M/i^.
r\CtJIUUULCU en IMC IHdllUMdl MfLItt'
DECLASSIFIED
Authority '^j'3'^^-
-3 -V
By^NARA Datei^fc(l2/0Z
.-.Mii^mtiiiy-'.'iiitt^-
106
<i^CDNFIDENTiAL (^
V
2i
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A No^ sir.
Q As you played, did you see any of the boys leave the barrackQ
and go down to the area?
A I wasn't paying any attention at all. They were running through
the barracks and hollering.
Q What were they hollering about?
A They said they was fighting down there.
Q Did yousee any of them that said fighting was going on?
A No, sir.
Q During the fight you heard all of the noise, the breaking
of windows?
A No, sir, I didn't hear anything. Tlie boys were talking about
the fighting.
Q And whistles being blown?
A No, sir, Ididn't hear no whistles.
Q The men that went down into the area, they came back after
the fight was over?
A Well, I didn't pay no attention to it, sir.
Q Didn't you see any of those who came back?
A I don't know, sir.
Q Did you hear a bunch of them discussing the fight after it
was over?
A No, sir.
Q Now, the next day, during the time you were being put in the
guardhouse, there was some discussing of It?
A I was sick and they sent me back to the hospital.
Q How long did you stay there?
A About eight days, 8±r.
Q While in the hospital, did any of them come to see you?
A No, sir.
Q After you got out of the hospital, you returned to the
guardhouse?
A No, sir.
CONFIDENTIAL
(MITCHELL)
> 404
■•'??• -I v.»v
l^cfJ>uuul.'Cu at iiic i"<aiiuiiai muijiv
DECL AS|iFrED
Authority "j'^^^^^
. .^Ui)iaiid^JUtBm^^ ^ B-'-'
107
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Q Have you heard anyone dlscusaing it since then?
A One fellow.
Q Who was that?
A They call him "Slick,"
Q Cpl. Curry?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he aay about it?
A He took a jeep and run a tent down.
Q He said he knocked a tent down with a Jeep?
A He said he run into the tent.
Q Did he aay what else he did?
A No, sir.
Q Have you heard any of the others explain it?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know Herman Eedley?
A Yes, he's a cook in our Company.
Q I suppose you know that Eedley testified that he saw you and
Joseph Scott down in the area?
A I don't know, sir.
Q Do you know Eoy Montgomery?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see him the night of the li*-th?
A I don't remember, sir.
Q Who else in the stockade have you heard discussing it beside
Slick?
A I haven't heard anyone, sir. I Ijeard Joe Trice talking down
there, but he didn't say that he was down in the eirea. He said they was
trying to pin it on him.
Q Did you hear Wellace Wooden talking aboutit?
A No, sir. I don't know him.
Q You know the boy out there in the blue coveralls?
A No, sir, I Just know him by sight. I don't know him by name.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(MITCHELL)
^afli.
i^iifi-JosHt-:"
^
r\cjji uuuLCU di iiic i^dtiuiidi «itnt
DECL ASWiED
Authority / J "^^-^ -
VAiiKX..iiSiMv.'
re--
108
#CDNFIDENTIAL
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6
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Q That Is all the conversation you heard, Curry dlacuasing the
part he played in the riot?
A That's right, sir.
Q You never heard Eoy Montgomery discussing it?
A No, sir.
Q You never heard anything ahout the hanging?
A No, sir.
Q V/ere you mixed up in the hanging?
A No, sir.
Q Is there anything, whether I have asked you or not, that you
want to tell me ahout the case?
A No, sir.
Q
That is all.
CDNFIDENTIAL
140b
(MITCBELL) (END)
' ^-^i.
m
V ■5'
-.0^,
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Keproflucea at trie National Archi
DECLASSIFIED
Authority "/^-^^-^-^
109
^CDNFIDENTIAL •
'. 1
2i
3
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6
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Testimouy of Cpl. L. C. Clark, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 3 October 19hk,
"by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A L. C. Clark, Cpl., 385^58^5, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2Hh Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of ik August 19^^^ where were you when the
fight started between the Italians and the colored soldiers?
A I was in my barracks, sir.
Q What was the number of your barracks?
A 667.
Q What was the first thing that called your attention to the
fight?
A I didn't know anything about it until the next morning.
My Company Commander told us about it. You see, he had us packing up and
stamping our clothes. We got new clothes to be transferred to California
and go overseas. I packed mine up and went to bed about ten o'clock.
Q You went to sleep then?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the first thing that awakened you?
A I don't know --my First Sergeant woke me up about eleven o'clock.
Q About eleven o'clock you did wake up?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was the sergeant?
A Sgt. Horton.
Q Did he take your clothes off then?
A Yes, sir.
Q What noises did you hear about eleven o'clock when you were
CDNFIDENTIAL
1407
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awakened?
A The boys was gambling in the barracks .
Q Who was gambling? ,:.
A Arthur Eoas, George Mann — a bunch of them from the other
barracks .
Q This big fellow who just wentout, Ellery Mitchell, was he
gambling?
A He wasn't in otxr barracks. He was in his barracks.
Q Did you see Wallace Wooden up there anywhere?
A I don't know him, sir.
Q And you went to sleep then?
A Yes, sir. . '
Q The first thing you knew about it was the next morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you heard some discussion after the Company Commander told
you about it didn't you?
A No, sir I didn't hear anything said. We was so busy packing
up, they didn't mention any fight around there.
Q I mean after you found out you weren't going overseas amd
were put in the guardhouse you heard some discussion about it?
A No, air, none of the boys said ajiything.
Q Well, you heard discussion since the fight up until now
haven't you? ]
A No, sir, I ain't heard nothing about it. They didn't say
ajiythlng around me about it, sir.
Q Do you mean you have been up in the guardhouse five weeks
now and you haven't heard anybody discussing that fight?
A No, sir. The boys would be gambling and pitching horseshoes.
The only thing they say is "What they got me in here for, I wasn't down
there", and all such things.
Q Do youknow Slick Curry?
A Yes, I know him.
Q Have you heard him talking about it?
A I never heard him say he was down there.
^^
CDNFIDENTIAL
(CLAEE)
• JmL"-
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Q Did you hear him say he drove the jeep into the tent?
A JTo, sir, he never did say anything about it.
Q Have you heard B. F. Foster talking ahout it?
A I don't know him.
Q Is Ellery Mitchell in your Company?
A Yes, sir.
Q Haven't you heard him talking about it?
A TUq, sir, I haven't heard any of them talking about it. I am
going to tell you the facts.
Q All you know now is what you heard the Company Commander say
about it and what little talk youlieard since that time?
A That is all.
4
Q And those people you heard talking about it, who were they?
A I ain't heard nobody making any discussion about the fight.
That boy. Slick, is the only one said anything about it.
Q Slick didn't say he was down there, did he?
A He didn't say he was down there, but that he talked about it.
Q Didn't you ever hear anyone say they were down there?
A Some of them wish they were down there.
Q Who is that?
A Slick. Slick said he wished he would have been down there. He
said they got him in the stockade for something he didn't do.
Q Is there anything else, whether I have asked you or not, that
you want to tell me about this case?
A That la all I know, sir.
^■'
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CONFIDENTIAL
(CLARK) (END)
DECLASSIFIED
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Testimony of Cpl. Eramett Lillard, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October 19kk,
"by Lieut. Colonel Curtia L. Williama, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Emmett Lillard, Cpl., 56788537, 651st Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
24th Article of War?
A Well, no, sir; not exactly.
Q I will explain them to you. (The 2Uth Article of War was
read and explained to the witness) , Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of ik August 19^4, were you in Fort Lawton when
the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where were you sleeping that night?
A I was in barracks 75O, I think.
Q Wliat was the first thing that you heard. Corporal, that led
you to believe there was a fight going on?
A Oh, someone outside was hollering and there's a fight doing
in the Italian area.
Q Who was hollering?
A I couldn't tell you that, sir. I don't know Just who it was.
Q Did you go outside?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q What did you see when you got on the outside?
A Just a lot of soldiers coming out of the barracks and going
in the barracks and a bunch of them wanted to get together.
Q Were some of them getting clubs?
A No.
Q A bunch of them got together did they?
CDNFIDENTIAL
141.0
(LILIAED)
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A Yee, sir.
Q Did they go down there? *
A No, sir.
Q Where did they go?
A We was standing at the harracks, Just as you go down the hill?
Q 672? - ■
A The latrine and we was all standing there and the First
Sergeant came out there.
Q Sgt. Cabral?
A Yes, sir. He said, "Don't go down there." He said, "I am giving
orders for you not to go down there." "He said, "I am going in and call
the MP's." He went hack and called the MP's and I was standing there.
Hewent hack and called the MP's and he came back there and he stood up there
with a whole bunch of us watching the rocks and things hitting the walls.
Q And you heard the windows and lights being broken?
A Yes, sir.
Q Heard yelling and screaming? ,
A That is right, sir.
Q As this was going on, did you see anynen either from your
Company or from the other Company on the other side of the road going
down that way?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q
A
seen them.
You could have seen them.
If I had been looking, and saw someone going, I could have
Did you see these people running up and down this road over
here by this mess hall going down toward the Italian Area?
A I couldn't see that because this barracks was sheding it from us.
We was between two barracks .
How long did you stand there?
A We stayed there quite a while.
Q
A
15 or 20 minutes?
Yes, sir; somewhere around there. We went back right behind the
CDNFIDENTIAL
.411
(LILLARD)
iU^
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latrine and stood up there and looked at the ambulance hauling them away.
Q Did you see the MP's arrive?
A I heard the MP's and things down there. I guess there was an
MP hollering "get hack." It was dark down there. We couldn't see no
more than when a Jeep or amhulance run up and we could see that.
Q When the lights shined- on the area, you could see a hunch
of people?
A Yes, we did see them loading those Italians up.
Q After the fight was over, did you see some of your hoys come
hack to the barracks there who had heen away?
A I don't know ahout that, sir.
Q Do you know Herman Johnson?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was he down there?
A I don't know. He didn't stay in the harracks I stayed in.
Q You didn't see him around that area while you were there?
A Wo, sir.
Q Who else from your outfit was down there?
A I couldn't tell youthat, sir.
Q Well, youheard them talking since that tine haven't you?
A This hoy Slick said he was down there.
Q What did Slick say?
A He said he drove a Jeep and he hit one of the Italians.
Q Who else have you heard talking ahout it?
A I think this hoy Montgomery.
Q What did he say?
A He didn't say he was down there.
Q Did he say he hit a man?
A A I don't know that he said that. He said he was there.
Q Who else?
A That's all. If anybody did anything they ain't going around
telling it.
•>»
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Q Who did you hear say was in on the hanging?
A I haven't heard anything ahout that.
Q Have you heard anyone discussing it at all? ^ .. ■■
A No, sir.
Q When you were told hy your company officers that there was one
of the Italians hanged, what was said hy the Company?
A There wasn't anything said. They Just said a man was hanged
down there.
Q Well, there must have "been some discussion when they said a man
was hanged?
A It was a surprise to the Company to know that someone was hanged.
Q The Tjoys don't talk much about the hanging. They discuss the
fight hut not the hanging?
A That's right, sir.
Q ^Vhen you went hack to yotir "barracks, did you go to bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was there any discussion in the barracks when you got back inside?
A No, there was gambling going on. In fact, I went right on and
went to sleep. I didn't know they turned the lights out even.
Q Did many of them come in there while you were gettiiig ready
to go to bed?
A No, sir, quite a bunch was in there.
Q Did the MP's cone In?
A I don't know because I went to sleep. They didn't come in.
Q Did you ever see this mess hall while you were over in the
barracks ?
A I think there was a light on in the mess hall.
Q Were there a bunch of people gathered around the mess hall?
A I couldn't see. I know there was a little in the mess hall.
You could see through the windows. I couldn't tell youthat. It was dark.
Q Wero there any whistles blown in the area?
A Not as I know, sir.
Q Did you hear any whistles that night?
A I didn't hear any, sir.
-■^■•:
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pb
CDNFIDENTIAL
1413
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(LILIARD) (EBD)
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Testimon;^'- of T/5 Earvey Banirs, taken at
Fort Lawton, Vashington, on 5 October 19^^,
■by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Willjams, IGD.
The vitness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial nuniber , organization
and station.
A Harvey Banks, T/5, 5689713U, 650th Port Company, Fort Lewton,
Washington .
Q Are you familiar with your rights aa a witness under the
24th Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of l^f August 19^4, were you In Fort Lairton when
the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir; I was in camp.
Q V/hat 'barracks were you in?
A 719.
Q What were you doing when you first heard aliout the fight?
A I was in bed .
Q Were you asleep?
A No, sir; I wasn't asleep.
Q Just lying in bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the first thing that called your attention to the
noise outside the building?
A It was the whistle.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Who blev the whistle?
I don't know, sir.
Hadn't someone come in and asked for the whistle?
It was outside when I first heard it.
Just before the whistle was blown, didn't someone come into
the barracks inquiring for a whistle?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
{BAMS)
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DECLASSIFIED
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Q Didn't someone come in and tell you there was a fight outside?
A Someone come in and hollered to come out.
Q V/ho was that?
A I don't know.
Q Was it Addison, George?
A No, sir; I couldn't recall the "boys.
Q Do you know whether it was Luther Larkin?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see Luther Larkin and Addison George that night in
the barracks?
A No; sir.
Q After the whistle blew outside, which called your attention to
the fight, what did you do?
A Well, after the whistle blew I looked out through the window.'
My bunk was in the window where we make a formation.
Q What did you see going on?
A I didn't see enji^hing.
Q Didn't you see the man that was blowing the whistle?
A No, sir.
Q Wasn't there a bunch of people gathered around the mess hall?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you look out that way?
A I didn't get out of bed.
Q You looked out of the window?
A My bunk is right at the window.
Q Well, you could look and see what was going on?
A The mess hal3 is down that way.
Q Did you then get up?
A No, sir.
Q V/hat did you do?
A I Just stayed in bed .
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q While you were in bed there, v/as there a bunch of boys running
up and down the stairway coming in and out of the building?
A Yes, sir, I could hear them.
Q What were they doing?
A They were going outside.
Q V/hat were they saying?
A I heard them saying that all you yellow rats that stay in <?-
bed is yellow.
Q And this went on outside the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long was it after the whistle blew that you heard the
fighting in the Italian area?
A I didn't hear the fight.
Q Didn't you hear the rocks and hollering?
A Ho, sir, I could hear voices, but I couldn't hear any sounds.
Q How long did that noise in the Italian area last before it
was over?
A Well, I couldn't recall that, sir.
Q Afte r the fight was over, undoubtedly the boys began to come
back to the barracks?
A Well, I don't remember them coming back in. When I woke up
they was in.
Q Whet was happening when you woke up the next time?
A There was an MP standing up there. I would say about four
paces from the door. Just inside as there was a little drinking fountain
there and he was talking to them.
Q What was he saying?
A I couldn't get all he said. The only thing I got is "that they
made a pretty good Job of it."
Q He told the boys that they had done a pretty good Job on
the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he say it saved the white MP's fi-om doing it?
A Well, I couldn't recall. All of them was trying to talk.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(banks)
■»■■- *'■•-:*- ^iji^^ir^lfj^^-:;m, . ^i^^^-
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Q Did you see this MP that did the talking?
A Wo, sir.
Q Were the lights out in the harracks?
A Yes, sir. There was one burning about the 2d light from the
door.
Q This man vho was doing the talking to the boys, what kind of
a fellow was he?
A I couldn't see him.
Q You could hear his voice?
A Yes, sir.
Q What kind of a voice was it — a rather strong voice?
A I couldn't recognize it because it was mixed in with the
other voices.
Q A bunch of the other boys were talking to him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was talking to him?
A I couldn't say, sir.
Q Well, you know some of them?
A I didn't hear — I don't know.
Q You heard the voices.
A It was so mingled up I couldn't call the one man.
Q Did you have any discussion with any of the boys that night after
the fight was over?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you hear them discussing it with the others?
A The only thing I heard was you were all just yellow.
Q Who was that?
A That was Alston.
Q And Alston then told you that you guys that didn't go down
there were just yellow?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he say anything further about 4t?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(BAMS)
\
^iSi-- -Sii -■•1
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A No, sir.
Q Was there any argument "between him and someone else about not
going dovn there?
A No, sir.
Q We have testimony that two of the "boys in "barracks 719 got
in an argument, one of them called the others yellow for not going
down there and one who didn't go thought it was unfair to "be called yellow
so he entered into an argument with the man who called him yellot. So,
I ask you that question to see if you know who the other man was that '"'■
argued with Alston?
A No, sir; it wasn't downstairs.
Q What other conversation did you hear and who made it,
concerning the figJit that night?
A Well, I never heard no more conversation "because after that
I heard some of them say there was a major or a lieutenant was in the
"building and he ordered them all to get to bed.
i
Q And they went to "bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q The next day you were all moved over to the guardhouse weren't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And "before you went to the guardhouse and around the Company
whom did you heeir discussing the fight?
A We didn't have much time.
Q After you got in the guardhouse whom did you hear discussing
the fight?
A Well, we didn't hear no one over there making no discussion.
The ones over there had the same complaint that I had ,
Q What was that?
A Wanted to know why was we in here when we weren't in on the fight.
Q Well, all the people that are in the guardhouse aren't in
on the fight.
A Well, as far as I know they are. The ones that were
in the "bed the same as I was .
Q Who was that?
A Briscoe, Eo"bert Frazier, Eice, George Jackson, Willie Collins,
CONFIDENTIAL
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Walter Euffen and Moses Patterson. I know those were "because they
slept in the "back and I was getting my haircut around nine o'clock.
Q Well, you didn't see them during the fight did you?
A No, tut they was in bed while I was getting my haircut.
Q Well, they could have gotten out of ted when the fight started,
as raaiiy of them did, couldn't they?
A I don't know about that.
Q You can't testify that all those people you named were in
bed?
A Well, I can testify that all those were in bed when I was
getting my haircut. All the boys was over to the Px and the Eec Hall.
They was dancing.
your hair was being cut around nine o'clock ajid you went •
to sleep then and you couldn't testify those people that you have named
were in the barracks around 11:15, could you?
A No, sir; I wouldn't swear by that.
Q
A
Q
A
Who cut your hair?
Willie C. Collins.
Is he a barber?
He's a barber, not by license, but by being in the Company.
Q You stated that while you were in the guardhouse you heard
little talk about it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know Willie Curry?
A Yes.
Q Roy Montgomery?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you heard Roy talking about the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Have you heard Willie Basden talking about the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Heve you heard Wallace Wooden talking about it?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1413
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A I haven't "been around Wallace Wooden.
Q You know Wallace don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You know him when yousee him? i
A Yea^ sir. -
Q Well, Wallace haa aald he waa in the fight haan't he?
A I haven't heard him saying it.
Q You didn't get up, then, when the fight atarted and go outaide
and see what was going on?
A No, air.
Q Did youhear them breaking down that board fence?
A No, air.
Q Did you hear the whistle blowing over there and ajiy discussion
as to what they would do?
A No, sir, aa the whiatle was blowing they just was yelling and
hollering and talking -- Juat trying to raise their volcea over each other.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Did Luther Larkin blow the whistle?
No, I don't know, air.'
Do youknow Sgt. Hurka?
Yes, sir.
Did you talk to Sgt. Hurka about the fight?
No, sir.
Did you hear him discuss it with anyone?
No, sir.
Did you see him that night?
No, air.
Did you hear Sgt. Hurks out in front of building 719 when he
was edging the boys on?
A No, sir.
Q js there anything else, whether I have asked you or not, that
you want to tell me eJbout this case?
A I don't know anything, sir. Now, the next morning, after the
CDNFIDENTIAL
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formation, when Lieutenant Kapitz was telling them atout how they had
mess up their record, atout how good a record that we had made and how
they messed it up in just a few minutes, there was a few making the
discussions. Thatwas Sgt. Greshum and Nelson Alston and Luther Larkin
and Frank Hughes. Those are the ones that I heard discuss it.
Q Whatwere those four saying about it?
A They was in it. I didn't hestiate. lias rushing. -
Q They were saying that they were all in it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they say what they had done?
A No, sir.
Q Did Greshum tell the hoys there that they were all yellow for
not going down there?
A No, sir.
Q That vras Alston that said that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that was the time that Alston made that remark?
A Yes, sir. That night after they came "back.
Q But out there, Greshum, Hughes, Lfirkln end /OLstoa, all those
four, were talking and they all said they were down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q But they didn't say what they done?
A That's right.
Q Is there anything else that you want to tell me?
A No, sir; that's all I know.
Q In what way did they say they were down there?
A The way the statement came about. Lieutenant Kapitz \raa telling
them how yellow and how corwardly they was to go down there in such a
large number to overpower a few men and he said he knew practically everyone
that was down there and after they broke fromatlon they was pretty much
all together and he said, "You was down there, you was one of those yellow
rats." That's the only part I could hear.
Q These four that you named , then, were telling each other that
they were one of those yellow rate because they were dovm there?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1421
(bams)
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A Yes^ because they were in such large rambers to overpower those
Italians. They said that was a joh for the MP's and Officer of the Day
to straighten out such things and not for them.
Q
That's all.
CDNFIDENTIAL
' . 1422
(BAMS) (SKD)
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Testimony of Pf c . Elmer Briscoe, taken
at Fort Lavrton, Washington, on 3 Octoter 19hh,
"by Lieut. Colonel Ciu-tis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Elmer Briscoe, Pfc, 38558856, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2ii-th Article of War?
A No, sir; not too much.
Q I will explain them to you. (The 24th Article of War was
read and explained to the witness) . Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q
On the night of ik August 19^4, were you in Fort Lawton when
the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what barracks were you?
A In the first barracks, 719.
Q Wliat was the first thing that you heard that called your
attention to the fighting?
A I was in bed about half asleep laying up there and reading a book.
Some of the boys came back and said the boys don't know what they are
doing, they are going to get messed up fighting the white folks and
that scared me. Where I came from, I never had been around that.
Q You never have been in one of those fights?
A No, sir. I seen too many boys killed Just from fighting with
their fists.
Q V/hen you first heard about it, did you get up?
A No, sir. I got up once and tied the back door with my tent
rope,
Q Where did you get the rope?
A Me drawed it for our pack.
Q You had those packs?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(BRISCOE)
1423
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Q
A
I had those ropes.
You tied the door with that rope?
I tied that and tucked the clothes rack in there.
Q Nov, after you wired the door and tied it closed with your
tent rope, what did you do?
A I let the shade down.
Q Why did you let the shade down?
A I was just nervous .
Q Well, after you left the shade down, what did you do?
A I got back in bed .
Q Did you go to sleep?
A I was asleep, sure.
Q Well, you heard a lot of noise still going on outside?
A Yes, sir.
Q You could hear the Italians screaming down there, couldn't you?
A I didn't know.
Q Did you look out of the window? '
A No, sir.
Q Did you see some of the boys running up and down the stairs?
A I was up there sleeping.
Q Well, you heard this man come in and holler "everybody out"
didn't you?
A I might have been asleep when he hollered that.
Q You heard it though?
A No, sir.
Q Everybody else in the barracks heard it?
A I didn't hear it.
Q You mean you didn't hear that?
A I heard somebody hollering and they said somebody was hurt. I
didn't understand who they said he was. They gave him artificial
perspiration and tried to revive him.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(BRISCOE)
"^*M. -^'^
'■■M..'^. •^^.vift
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Q Did you see vho vent down to give him "artificial perspiration"?
A No, air; I vas in bed.
Q You heard a whistle blow didn't you?
A I heard a whistle blow.
Q It was on the outside of the building?
A Yes, sir.
Q Just before the whistle blew, you heard somebody come In
and ask for a whistle didn't you?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you see Luther Larkin come in and ask for a whistle?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you see Larkin or George come in and tell everybody
to go out there was a fight going on?
A No, sir.
Q Now, when the whistle blew outside, a lot of people wentout
didn't they?
A A bunch of boys could have been already out.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
too much.
But you saw some more going, too, didn't you?
No, sir; I didn't.
After the whistle blew, the noise increased, didn't it?
Well, I don't remember. I couldn't swear to that.
Well, you know whether the noise got louder or whether it didn't,
Well, I made — so much noise through the back I didn't hear
Q But the noise in the barracks wasn't one-tenth as loud as
the noise outside was.
A I don't know.
Q Did you ever look out?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't look out at all?
A No, sir; I didn't want to look out.
Q After you heard the noise on the outside, didn't it sound like
CONFIDENTIAL
1425
(beiscoe)
'irr.^r. U--M^m,;':ii^.-^i'
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it was going on around the Italian area?
A I don't know.
Q You heard a lot of noise down near the Italian area.
A I heard noise, Isut I don't know where it was.
Q After the noise ceased, didn't some of the "boys start coming
back in the "barracks?
A Well, the First Sergeant come in after it got quiet. He
must have stopped them. The MP's or something, I guess.
Q And everybody went to ted?
A I guess so. I guess they did. I didn't pay much attention.
I covered my head .
Q Covered your head?
A When they cut the lights off.
Q Why did you cover your head?
A I was nervous and couldn't stand nothing like that. I ain't
used to nothing like that. I know what it is when a man fools with
white folks.
Q Where did you see it?
A Home.
Q Where?
A Cameron, Texas.
Q What happened down there?
A I saw a man get in a fight and about ^4-00 of them drug him.
Q Drug the colored man?
A Yes, sir.
Q Kill him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he hurt the white man?
A Wo, sir.
Q Now, after this fighting was over, wasn't there a bunch of
boys that came back to the barracks to go to bed?
A I slept in the back and didn't pay any attention to them.
CONFIDENTIAL
(BBISCOE)
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Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
You didn't see a single man that came in that "barracks?
I didn't pay no attentioN to them.
You heard them come in?
I heard the boys, hut the sergeant was up in there hollering.
You could hear them discussing it^ too?
I didn't hear them.
Q After the fight was over you didn't hear anyone discuss it
that night?
A No, sir.
Q The next morning vhen you were lined up in a formation over
there, reveille, Lieutenant Kapitz told you there had been a fight,
didn't he?
A Lieutenant Kapitz told us we were going over to the stockade.
Q Now, when he was telling you about the flglit, he told you
you kind of messed yourselves up, didn't he?
A Yes, sir.
Q He said you had a good record up until that time, but now
you were in bad?
A Yes, sir.
Q And there was a bunch of boys that stood around talking about
the part they played in the fight?
A I didn't hear it.
Q Didn't you hear Luther Larkin?
A No, air.
Q And Hughes and all those people discussing what parts they
played in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Who all have you heard discussing the fight since that time?
A Nobody.
Q, Is there anything else that you want to tell me about the
fight?
A I don't know anything else. If I knew it I would really tell
you.
CDNFIDENTIAL
A21
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Testimony of Pvt. Eobert Frazier, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 3 October 19hh,
by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Robert Frazler, Pvt., 5763II29, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lswton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2l+th Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you present on the night of Ih August 1944 when the
colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
fight?
A
Q
A
In what barracks were you?
719.
Were you present in the barracks when the fight started?
Yes, sir.
r
What were you doing?
I was in bed .
Had you been asleep?
No, air.
What was the first thing that called yuur attention to the
Well, they brought this boy Snow in.
What did they do with him?
They laid him on a cot and so many ganged around him and they
said we can't keep him here and they carried him right back out,
Q Did yousee Snow yourself?
A Well, I was at least hO Or 45 feet from him.
Q You were in the barracks though?
A Yes, air.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1428
(FEAZIER)
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Q Who vas helping Snow?
A There was so many ganged around .
Q Didn't you recognize any of them?
A No, sir; I didn't. They hrought him in and everyhody ganged
around him.
Q What did they say when they "brought him In?
A Somehody said one of the hoys got knocked out.
Q Did they say who knocked him out?
A Well, no, they didn't. The way I understood no one knew.
Q Did they say they were going down there and clean those
Italians up?
A Well, shortly after they cleared him out the whistle "blew.
Q
A
around .
Q
A
Q
A
Did they go out?
I never did see nobody go out, hutthey was already ganged
And they left?
I don't know ahout that.
Was Snow then put in an ambulance and taken away?
Some of them said they put him in an ambulance, hut I never
did get up.
Q Who were those you saw leave theharracks at the time he
was taken out?
A I didn't pay any attention because I had to look at some of
the other guys that was sitting there.
Q Who was one of them?
A I couldn't tell you to save my life.
Q After they took Snow outside of the building, what happened
inside the building?
A Well, there were several of us in there.
Q Who was in the building at the time Snow had been taken out?
A Well, there were several boys that had been in the Company
that I didn'tknow.
Q Well, of those you knew?
CONFIDENTIAL
' 1423
(fraziee)
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A Some of the boys in the Company that was gone and some of them
that are in the stockade.
Q Name some of them.
A Well, George Jackson, Elmer Briscoe, Edward Sanders, Harvey
Benks and seven or eight more that have gone with the Company.
Q None of them ever got up?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't see Willie Basden up there at the time?
A Well, he didn't stay in at my harracks. He stayed in the
"barracks -- I helieve he was in the 2d platoon. -^,3
Q What ones in your barracks were missing that you know the
night Snow had been carried out?
A Well, sir, I couldn't say because the biggest bunch -- I vas in
the further end of the barracks .
Q Well, you named four or five that were there, now nane four
or five that were missing?
A I didn't pay any attention.
Q Was Frank Hughes over there with you?
A I don't Imow. He might have stayed upstairs.
Q Does Greshum stay up there with you?
A He was my platoon sergeant.
Q Where did he stay?
A S was upstairs .
Q You didn't see him up there, did you?
A I didn't go upstairs.
Q Now, after the fighting was over, you saw some of the boys
coming back in the barracks just before the lights were tiarned out?
A Well, I dozed off to sleep, I was sick that night and I had been
on KP and I got a bath and got right into bed.
Q But you were awake v?hen SNow was carried out weren't you?
A Yes, sir; T was awake.
Q And you wer«-. eveke after he was carried out?
A Yes, sir.
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Q And it Wasn't long after Snow vas carried out that the "boys
began to come hack In.
A Well, it was a good while as far as I remember.
Q How long would you say?
A Well, I don't remember because when I dozed off and went
to sleep the MP was In there telling them to turn the lights out.
Q Before the MP's came in to turn the lights out, who came back
to the barracks?
A I don't remember.
Q
A
Q
arrived?
A
Q
A
Name four or five of them.
I don't think I can recall any.
Surely you can recall fouj:' or five just before the MP's
Bo, sir, I couldn't.
Who did you hear discussing the fight before the MP's arrived?
That's what I say, and when I waked up the MP was telling the
boys to put the lights out.
Q Before you went to sleep, didn't youhear anyone discussing
the fight in the barracks?
A Wo, sir.
Q After the MP's arrived and told you to put the lights out,
did they put the lights out end tell you to go to bed? '
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that all you remember?
A I was very sick th'at night and I ^aked up maybe four or five times
during the night.
Q During the niglit, did you hear any of the boys talking?
A No, sir; I didn't.
Q The next morning, then, Lieutenant Kapitz assembled you all
over in the vicinity of the stockade and told you that you boys certainly
got yourKelves in a mess .
A Well^ something like that.
Q And didn't he say that all the people that went down there
were yellow, or something like that?
CDNFIDENTIAL
1431
(erazier)
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A Yes, air.,
Q While you were up there in the building, did you hear the
MP's taJJcing to some of the men in the barracks?
A He waked ne up telling the boys to put the lights out, and
he had his foot sitting on the bed . Some of the boys got up and ready
to turn the lights out and be went.
Q
A
Didn't he say that you boys did a fine Job d
I didn't hear him say that.
own there?
Q Let's get back to the time Lieutenant Kapitz was talking to
you. When the formation br'oke up, wasn't there some conversation between
Hughes and Alston and that group about who had been down there?
A No, sir; I didn't hear them.
Q Didn't you hear anybody discussing the fact that they were
down there during the fight after Lieutenant Kapitz had gotten through
talking to them?
A Wo, sir.
Q Since that time, name the five or six people that you heard
talking concerning the fight and the part they played in it?
A Well, the boys are coming down here and saying, "Vfell, they are
trying to get me; I wasn't In it and I was in bed asleep", and all
like that.
Q Well, you heard someone say they admitted they were down here
talking about it, because undoubtedly we have at least 20 people who have
come down here arid told us the whole story. Didn't you hear Curry tell
you what he said down there about driving the jeep in the tent?
A I don't know him.
down?
fight'
Q
■>
A
Q
Didn't you hear Willie Ma this telling about chopping the door
Ko, sir.
Didn't you hear V/allace W^ooden talk about what he did in the
No, sir.
Q Did youhear Herman Johnson talking about what he did down
there in building 78O when he hit those Italians over the head?
A No, sir. I don't know him.
CONFIDENTIAL
(FEAZIEE)
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Q Haven't you heard him talking about it?
A Oh, he's the "big tall fellow -- Ho, sir, I haven't.
Q Eeve you heard anyone else talking ahout it?
A Ho, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear anyone mention anjiihing ah out the hanging
and who did that?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know who did it?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have any idea?
A The FB I man said that four colored boys did it.
Q Did he say who they were?
A Mo, sir, he didn't call no names
Q Did he say who it was?
A I don't know if he said who it was, but he said four of them.
Q Is there anything else, whether I mentioned it or not, that
you want to tell me about it?
A Well, I am afraid I couldn't help you on anything. I was
really sick. Me and this fellow Eriscoe slept together. He was afraid
and he fastened the door.
Q What did he fasten the door with?
A A piece of wire.
CONFIDENTIAL
(feaziee) (end)
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Testimony of Pvt. Ernest Martin, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 OctoTaer 19hk,
by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness v^as svorn.
Q State your fullname, grade, serial number, organization and
station.
A Ernest Martin, Pvt., 58559902, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lavton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2Uth Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of Ik August 19^^^ when the colored soldiers
attacked the Italians, where were you?
A In ted sleeping.
Q tn what harracks?
A 719.
Q Were you asleep when the fight started?
A Yes, sir.
Q What awakened you?
A Freddie, next to me, shook me. I didn't know whether the
fight was over or anything. He said, "Martin, our hoys had a fight
with the Italians." I never did get up out of bed.
Q Did Freddie ever discuss with you what part he played in it?
A Ko, sir.
Q You knew he had been down there?
A No, sir.
Q Did he sleep right next to you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you wake up at any time while the fight was going on
and see whether Freddie was in bed?
A Ko, sir.
Q Did you discuss with Freddie, later, what part he played in
the fight?
^■
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Q
Ko, sir.
Weren't you awakened ty all this noise on the outside of the
building?
A Ko, sir.
Q Have you discussed or heard discussed the part that anyone
has played in the fight?
A No, sir, I haven't heard anything.
Q You mean to tell me that all the time since this fight happened
you haven't heard anything?
A I want to be frank with you. I remember hearing more about
that when Lieutenant Kapitz took us up in the other area. I didn't think
much about it. He took us up to the other area and he had some of us
go upstairs and some downstairs. He said, "Veil, some of you boys that
was supposed to go out of here was a damn good outfit but now it is the
worst outfit." He said, "You boys has went down there last night and hirag
an Italian." He said, "I am not speaking of those that weren't in on
the fight." He said, "You all know who I mean." That's all I knew about it.
When the Italians came down to Camp Jordan to pick us out, I felt good.
I knew I didn't know nothing about it. Pfc. Montgomery sleeps up above
me and I slept down the bottom. When we went thru this area, I felt glad
about that because I knew I hadn't did anything and when they picked me
out I still hadn't found out why I was picked out in that bunch.
Q One of the Italians picked you out?
A That's what I believe. I didn't know who did.
Q What did he say?
A He hasn't said. Somebody picked me out of that bunch. I don't
know how I happened to be inthat bunch because on the l^t-th was my biirthday.
I was 50 years old on the lU th of August. At 6:50 I was restricted. I
stayed in town with my mother and dad . I called my mother and told her
I would be restricted and she said all right. We were stenciling our
clothes . I put my stuff away and they told us to get our stuff away because
we would get an early start the next morning. I didn't know what all
happened. I didn't pay much attention to it. I still hadn't took it
serious until we got in the compound and he said, "I suppose you have
heard over the radio what happened." I said it must be serious for it to
be over the radio, but I still didn't pay much attention to it.
Q After you were put in the compound, you heard a bunch of boys
talking about it; didn't it?
A Ko, sir; they didn't say anything.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Q Even up until now you haven't heard anything?
A Absolutely nothing, sir.
Q la there anything else you want to tell me?
A No, sir.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of T/5 William A. Cunningham,
taken at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October
19kh, "by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IQD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and Stat °^^^^^^ ^^ Cunningham, T/5, 585^^5825, 650th Port Company,
Fort Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2lfth Article of War?
A Yes, sll".
Q On the night of ll^ August 19^^^, vere you in Fort Lawton when
the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir; I was.
Q What were you doing when you first heard about the fight?
A I was at the show when the fight was going on and I come on
back and I saw one of the boys in the Company knocked out on the couch.
I come up there and I asked what was going on aiid he said, "This young
guy, Montgomery, he was knocked out." He said, "Montgomery got knocked
out by some Italians."
Q Well, then you got back here while Montgomery was lying out
on the sidewalk?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did they do with Montgomery?
A Well, someone called one of the boys, I think it was our CQ,
they was all doim there. One guy went to pour water on a knocked out
guy and he called for the ambulance. The jeep come and got him.
Q Were two MP's in it and put him in it?
A I didn't see the MP's. I saw a guy come in there where I was
They asked me where the boy was and I said "right here." One MP and
some colored guy laid him in the Jeep and drove off.
Q Then what did you do?
A I was standing up there,
in the barracks.
There was a bunch of them standing
Q That is in front of barracks 719?
CDNFIDENTiAL
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A Yes, Sir. '
Q Wliat were they doing?
A Just talking , I Eisked them what happened and they said an
Italian knocked him out.
Q What did you do?
A We was talking with the guys that Just moved in and this
First Sergeant come from somewhere and he come running down and he said
to all the "boys "don't go down there because there would be some trouble."
By that time our First Sergeant run up and he said no more of his boys
go down. I remember before the show they come back and made an announcement.
They said to make our pack for the next morning because we was leaving.
I had it packed the way they wanted it. About that time I think this
OD or lieutenant who used to be in our Company, Lieutenant Sestrom, and
another officer came up and talked to Luther Larkin and told all of us
to put the lights out and go to bed.
Q What was Luther doing that they talked to him?
A He was upstairs when the officer came up.
Q He Just got back from the fight?
A I don't know where he came from.
Q He had been outside?
A Yes, sir, he was outside.
Q What did he say about the fight?
A He came up and by the time he got up, he stayed in one of those
private rooms and Lieutenant Sestrom and another, I don't know the other
officer, but I think it was Lieutenant Sestrom which used to be in our
Company.
Q Well, when you got back from the show, why, the fight was
Just starting, wasn't it?
A I asked one of the boys that was knocked out.
Q While you were out there, there was a whistle being blown.
A I remember Luther Larkin asking for a whistle.
Q He ran in and asked for a whistle?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see him come back with the whistle?
A He came and asked for the whistle.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Q Who hollered "everybody out, there is a fight going on"?
A I don't remember him hollering.
Q Then you heard a whistle blown later on?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it was blown up around that mess hall?
A I don't know where it was blown but I heard one tlown.
Q Weren't you outside when one was blown?
A No, sir.
Q Where were you?
A I was in the barracks .
Q And it was a short time after Luther had asked for the whistle
that you heard one blown?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, while you were outside and while Montgomery was lying
out there on the ground, you heard some conversation among the boys about
how he got hurt, didn't you?
A They said the Italian hit him.
Q Who said that?
A I don't know; it was dark out there, sir, and Just a bunch of
boys standing out there and they was talking out of the group and they
said the Italian himlim.
Q About that time didn't you notice the soldiers tearing down
the fence in front of building 700?
A When I was upstairs and come down, the First Sergeant was out
there talking and the fence was down.
Q They had already torn it down?
A Yes, the fence was moved.
Q Did you see them tear it down?
A I heard them, but I didn't see them.
Q Then you saw a bunch of them running down toward the Italian
A When I saw them, I saw them bringing Snow.
Q Where were you when they brought him back?
area?
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(CUNNINGHAM)
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A Standing there.
Q What did they do with him?
A Brought him "back and laid him on a cot. The "beds run this way
and they laid him in the aisle on the cot.
Q How long did they leave him there?
A I couldn't tell youexactly how long.
Q They didn't leave him there all the time?
A No, when the amhulance came and got him.
Q Did they take him out of the barracks or was he outside when
they came and got him? ■ ■
A I think he was still in the bed, I am not sure.
Q Who brought Snow back out?
A A guy they called by the name — Robert Sanders.
Q H© brought Snow back?
A Yes, I saw Robert Sanders carry him out.
Q Who else was with him?
A When I saw him they was coming across the street with him.
Q Where had Snow been hit?
A I don't know, sir, I saw some blood runing over him and they
laid him down and wiped the blood off. They wouldn't let a lot of people
around him.
Q Were the boys pretty mad about Snow getting hit?
A I couldn't tell you, sir.
Q Did you hear them talking about it?
A They wasn't talking, they Just said that the guy got knocked out.
Q Did they bring Clark up about that time, too?
A I don't know, sir, about Clark. I heard them talking and Clark
said, "I got hit on the top of the head."
Q He wasn't knocked out though?
A When I saw him he wasn't knocked out. When the First Sergeant
was talking to the boys he was talking to them.
Q Did he have a pretty good knot on his head?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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It was Just a split.
■■■ )?
Q Was It "bloody?
A They had washed it off. It was Just cut a little.
Q Who else was around when Clark came up?
A I don't know whether somehody brought him out or he walked up.
Q Did you see any of the hoys walkingback up with Clark?
A When I saw him the First Sergeant was talking and he put his
head down and it showed where he got hit.
Q He showed the MP's where he got hit?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were the MP's talking to the boys there?
A No, sir. /
Q But the MP's were sitting there in the car?
A Well, the MP's came in a car and I think they left and got ;
in another car. I recognized two cars, a car and an ambulance.
Q Each one brought MP's in it?
A Yes, sir.
0, Did you see an MP who was stationed right behind mess hall 700?
A No, sir, I didn't see no MP. What do you mean?
Q Eight behind building TOO -- that mess hall. Did you see an MP there?
A No, sir; I sure didn't, sir.
Q While you were out there, did you see an Italian run up by the
side of the mess hall, by an MP, and a colored soldier run down Virginia
Avenue and back into the Italian area?
A No, sir; I didn't.
Q Youheard about it though?
A No, I never heard about it before. . . ■
Q While you were outside, all that you sawwas Montgomery lying
on the walk? ;'
A And they brought Snow.
Q In the meantime, you had seen this group gathered around 700
and heard the fence torn down and saw those people moving down toward
CDNFiDENTIAL
(CUNNINGHAM)
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the Italian area and then you saw Snow "being carried "back up "by Eobert
Sanders?
A Yes, sir. ' '-^ '- ■
Q Vhatdid Eohert do when he ttirned Snow loose?
A He Just stayed in there, I think. He's the one that cleaned
his face up.
Q Didn't he go hack down to the area?
A I don't know, sir. While a car came up I don't know whether
he went hack or not.
Q What did Robert Sanders say?
A He Just said -- He laid him on the cot and that's all I seen
him do.
Q Was Snow doing apy talking?
A Ho, I never heard him say nothing while I was in there.
Q Now, after you stayed outside and observed all that you have
told us, what did you do?
A Well, our First Sergeant came up and said for no more of the
hoys to go down there. Well, I went and finished — we had been stamping
our clothes, so after we stamped the clothes they told us to roll our
packs . Well, I had rolled my pack and the First Sergeant came down and
said, "Go finish your pack." I went to fix my pack. That's when I
heard Lieutenant Seetrom talking to the boys.
Q While you were outside, will you name the 12 or 15 men that you
saw go down toward the Italian area?
A I couldn't name any of the men that was going down there because
it was a group. It was pretty dark and I was Just coming out from the show.
Q You must have seen some of them?
A The only guy I saw out there, and I didn't see hira go to the
area, was Luther Larkin. He was holding this boy that got out.
Q Luther Larkin?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you first saw him on the night of the llfth he was holding
Montgomery's hands to see if his pulse was still good?
A Yes, before I went to the show I saw him upstairs.
Q But after you came back from the show you saw Luther testing
CDNFiDENTIAL
(CUMINGHAM)
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Montgomery's pulse?
&
area?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you hext see him, vhen he was running down in the
A I didn't see him in the area.
Q You saw him looking for the whistle?
A Yes, I saw him looking for the whistle.
Q Did you see him any more that night?
A I saw him when the officer talked to him upstairs.
Q What wag the officer saying to Lerkin?
A He was asking how did this Montgomery get hit.
Q Did you hear the "boys up in the barracks, after the fighting
was over, discussing this thing?
A Ho, sir; I never heard none of it discussed.
Q Didn't you hear them talking ahout it?
A I heard one of them say that one guy — everybody that didn't
go down in the area was a coward .
Q Wasn't that Alston? ^ ; ■
A I don't know who, sir, who it vae. Alston stayed downstairs
and I stayed upstairs.
Q Wasn't Alston the one that said that everybody that didn't go
down there was yellow?
A Sir, I couldn't tell you who it was. I don't want to tell no
story on nobody which I wouldn't them to tell on me.
Q After you heard that remark you heeird some other talk about
it, didn't you?
A I rolled my pack and went to bed. They cut the lights out.
Q But while you were rolling your pack wasn't there a bunch of
conversation?
A No, they were all outdoors .
Q Who all was out doors ?
A The first sergeant was out there and talking to them.
Q What was he talking about?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(CUBUINGHAM)
A A ,
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A He said not to go dovn in that area because there was going to
"be a lot of trouble.
Q Well, after the night of the li)-th and then again on the morning
of the 15th, you heard some talking about this. Who did you hear
discussing it on the morning of the 15th?
A I didn't hear anyone discuss it. All I heard, the morning when
our Lieutenant Kapitz came dovn, hefore ve ate chov, had a formation and
he talked to the hoys about them going dovn in the area.
Q While you vere in the formation?
A Yes, sir.
Q After the formation broke up, you heard Hughes and Mathls and
that group discussing it, didn't you?
A No, sir; they stayed across over yonder in the new barracks.
Q Who did you hear discussing it after Lieutenant Kapitz
mentioned it to you?
A I heard some boys talking about it.
Q Who vas that? • '■ '■ >■■
A Just a bunch of boys, me for one of them.
Q You were one of them?
A Yes, sir.
■ Q On the morning of the 15th you were all sent up the guardhouse?
. , A Yes, sir.
Q After you got to the guardhouse, who have you heard discussirs
it?
A I didn't hear anyone talking aboutit. I heard them talking
about they weren't in on the fight.
Q But there are a bunch ofthem you knew vere down there, didn't you?
A I didn't know v;ho was down there. I came from the show and
that's where I saw the guy knocked out on the couch,
Q Then over around mess hall 700, while you were in front of
719* you saw a great number of soldiers assembled over there?
A 700 — I saw all of them boys over there.
Q Across the street from you?
;. A Yes, sir. . ■' • , '
CONFIDENTIAL
(CUMINGHAM)
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Q How many would you estimate were over there at the time
you saw then?
A I couldn't Bay.
Q Would you say I5O?
A I don't know. I am afraid to say.
Q Well, it was over 50 wasn't it?
A I imagine.
Q And that's when youheard the fence heing town down, when you
sew that group over there?
A The fence was torn down when this boy Montgoniery was knocked out.
That's when the fence was torn down.
Q Now, after you saw this group over there and observed that
the fence was down, you saw some of them moving down toward the Italian area?
A Yes, sir.
Q, Did you ever go across the road?
A No, air; I never did go no further than where I saw the guy
knocked out.
Q, You stayed in front of building 719?
A That is as far as I got, sir.
Q While you were out in front of building 719, couldn't you hear
this noise that was going on?
A I heard all this noise by the mess hall, there were lots of
boys in the mess hall.
Q There were a lot of window panes being broken in the Italian
area V7asn't there?
A I don't know, sir.
Q You heard people screaming and doors being hit with rocks
or something?
A I never did. I couldn't hear what was going on way down under
the hill. I heard lots of voices down there, but I don't know what they
were doing.
Q It sounded like a lot of noise over in that Italian area?
A Yes, just like you put a bunch of men together and talking
and something like that. I didn't hear them breaking no window panes. I
don't believe you could hear window panes breaking down there.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(CUNNINGH/>jyi)
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Q Now, when the toys "began to come "back from the Italian area,
back to the 'barracks, how many of them did you see as they approached
huildlng 719?
A Well, there was Just a big group of them.
Q All came back together?
A Yes, that's when the First Sergeant was talking to them.
Q How many out of that group did you recognize?
A I was interested in what the First Sergeant was talking about.
Q You saw these people come back.
A I saw them vrhen he was telling them to go in the barracks.
Q >/ho did you see going in the barracks that came from the area?
A I didn't see any of them that came from the area. I saw some
of them come by the car and come in the barracks. Addison George was
out there and he told all us to go back in the barracks and go to bed,
Q Addison George had just come up from the Italian area?
A He was standing out there. I don't know where he came from.
Q What did he have in hia hands?
A I didn't see him with nothing, sir.
Q Who else did you see?
A I don't know, sir. I didn't recognize any of the boys. ^ was
listening to what the First Sergeant said .
Q But you saw them.
A Yes, sir. ':•■
Q When you see people you know you recognize them, don't you?
A (Np audible answer)
Q Now, Just name some of the others?
A I couldn't name no person. I couldn't name people that I saw
going in the barracks because lots of them was even in the bed and they
didn't know nothing about the racket.
Q But there were lots of them that were coming in that had
been in the racket?
A Well, I don't know where they were.
Q Who, besides Willie Curry, has told you that he was down there
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(CUNNINGHAM)
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in the fight?
A Well, Curry hasn't even told me.
Q Who was it told you that he was down there?
A I haven't heard anyone say he was down there. I think when we
was up here in this large stockade I heard somebody say that Willie Cvirry
told the people down at the dock that he was dovm there.
Q
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Haven't you heard Wallace Wooden say he was down there?
no, sir, I didn't even see Wallace Wooden.
Don't you know Wallace? • ■
Yes, sir.
Q Didn't someone say that Wallace was down there?
A I didn't hear no one say that he was down there. Like the other
day I heard Prevose come hack and they said Prevose was down in the area.
Q Yes, Prevose did say that.
A Wallace Wooden stayed in the barracks over there, too, but I
didn't see him that night at all. I couldn't say he was in the area
or where he was. I didn't see him after we ate chow that evening.
Q Is there anything else that you want to tell me?
A That's about all. I wasn't in the fight and I told you what
I saw of it. That's all I know of it.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(CUTWINGHAM) (END)
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Testimony of Pvt. Thorton E. Bobbins,
taken at Fort Lavton, Washington, on 5 October
19^, by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The vitnesB vas sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization and
station.
A Thorton E. Bobbins, Pvt., 3TlJ>0lk2, 651st Port Company, Fort
Lairbon, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2it-th Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of ik August 19^^, vere you in Fort Lswton when
the fight happened between the colored soldiers and the Italians?
A
Q
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fight?
A
Yes, I was.
Were you in your barracks? ■.
I was in the barracks .
What is the number of your barracks?
667.
And you were in barracks 667 when you first heard of the
Yes, sir.
Q, What instance brought to your attention the fact that there
was a fight going on in the area?
Q Just something I heard some of the boys in there say.
A
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A
Q
A
Do you know who that was told you?
Wo, sir; I do not.
What did you do when you heard about it?
I v&B packing my duffle bag.
the lights.
I mean, what did you do after you heard about it?
There were two officers that come in and told us to put out
CDNFIDENTIAL
1448
(BOBBINS)
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Q You were told in the 'beginning that there vas a fight going
on in the area and then after that you heard a lot of noise around this
mess hall, didn't you?
A You see, I was at the mess hall myself working that night when
it all happened .
Q You mean this meas hall across the street?
A No, sir; our mess hall up there.
Q Then you were working where?
A 680.
Q How long did you work at building 680?
A It was past eleven o'clock. I heard taps blow before I left
the mess hall.
Q After taps blew, you worked there a while longer?
A Yes, sir.
Q How much longer would you estimate?
A I wouldn't know, sir. It has been a good while ago.
Q Then you came back to your barracks, 67O?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when you got back there someone told you there was a fight
going on or a fight had gone on?
A That a fight had been going on between the 650th boys.
Q Were the lights out when you arrived from the mess hall to
your barracks?
A No, sir.
Q How long was it after you got in the barracks that the MP's
came in and told you to turn out the lights?
A About 15 minutes.
Q At the time you arrived at your barracks, did you hear any noise
going on down the Italian area?
A I heard the whistle blowing.
Q You mean whistles were being blown down in the Italian area
or over close to this mess hall?
A I don't know where it was, but IHaard whistles blowing; the
sirens rather.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(EOBBINS)
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Q The sirens on the car? ■. -
A Yes, sir.
Q That was about the time you arrived at your barracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q, Nov, hov long after the sirens blew did you see the cars
coming out of that area?
A I didn't see the care.
Q How long after the sirens blew that the boys in yoior barracks
began to arrive into the barracks?
A I don't know, sir, I was packing my duffle bag.
Q Well, you surely saw people coming in and out of the building?
A Well, I was up at the front end. If they was coming in or out
they was coming in and out of the front door.
Q And you didn't see anybody?
A The First Sergeant came in and told us to go to bed .
Q Did you go to bed?
A Well, no, sir; they didn't go to bed then because I t/as packing
my duffle bag and I continued on to pack it. Qmt Captain told us we had
to have our duffle bags packed before morning so we could leave and so I
told him what the officer said. You see, I was working at the mess hall
and didn't have a chance to pack my bag.
Q While you were packing your bag, there were many of the boys
came in and started talking with you, weren't there?
. A I don't know, sir.
Q Didn't you hear some of them talking about the fight, other
than the boy who told you there was a fight going on?
A No one told me personally there was a fight going on.
Q
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fight?
A
Who did you hear talking about it?
I don't know who he was.
What did they say about it?
They Just said there was a fight going on at the PX.
Fow, the following day did you hear them talking about the
No, sir; because they called us out in formation that morning
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(BOBBINS)
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to move out. We was supposed to move out.
Q You then vent to the guardhouse later that day, didn't you?
A No, sir; they took us over here at some white 'barracks.
Q Area #1?
A I don't know, sir.
Q Over hy the Service Cluh?
A Yes, sir; over ty the #2 theater.
Q ANd they put you in those harracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long did they leave you in there?
A I don't know, sir, how long it was.
Q What did they do with you then?
A They "brought us hack to this stockade.
Q When you were in the white barracks you hears some men talking
ahout the fight; didn't you?
A Wo, sir. Well, my opinion about it was that the reason they
had us in there they was going to carry us overseas and didn't want us to
run off.
Q Well, after you went to the guardhouse, you knew what you were
in the guardhouse for, didn't you?
A Oxir Company Commander told vis.
Q After he told you, had you heard many of the hoys talking about
the fight?
A Ko, sir; I didn't.
Q
fight?
A
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Do you mean you have not heard of anyone talking about that
Ko, sir.
Wo one has told you who was in the fight?
Wo, sir; they didn't.
Did you ever talk to Willie Cvirry?
Wo, sir.
How about Wallace Wooden?
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(ROBBIWS)
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A No, I don't know him.
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Do you knov Henry Jupiter?
I seen him up tliiere.
Did you hear him talking atout it?
Noj sir.
Then you know nothing more about it then what you have told me?
No, sir.
You don't know any boys that were in the fight?
No, sir.
And you weren't in it yourself?
No, air; I was working.
Q That's all.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(EOBBHK) (END)
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Testimony of Pvt. Arthanial Warren, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 3 October 19^U,
ty Lieut. Colonel Ciurtis L. Williams, IGD.
> ■ I.
The vitnees vas sworn.
Q State yotir full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Arthanial Warren, Pvt., 3^958996, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lavton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2l)-th Article of War?
A I have heard it read .
Q Do you want me to read it again?
A I think I am familiar with it.
Q On the night of ik August, were you here in Fort Lawton when
they had this fight "between the colored soldiers and the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q What "barracks were you in when you first heard of the fight?
A 719.
Q Were you inside the harracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were you doing?
A I was in bed .
Q What caused you to know that the fight was going on outside?
A I don't know that the fight was going on.
Q When did you first learn about it?
A The next morning.
Q You didn't know anything about it at all?
A I slept upstairs .
Q Wasn't there a lot of noise?
A There was a lot of noise downstairs.
Q You heard that?
A I heard that, but didn't know it was a fight.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1453
(WAEEEN)
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Q
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Didn't you heaj7 the Ijoys talking?
I heard a lot of noise.
Did you hear one of the boys come in and ask for a whistle?
No, sir.
Did you hear one of the toys come in and say "everytody out"?
No, sir.
Q Did you hear them tearing do^m the fence across thestreet
from h arracks 719?
A No, sir.
Q Nov, since the night of the fight, have you heard any of the
hoys talking about who was in it?
A No, sir; I haven't heard anything about it.
Q You never heard a soul talk about this fight?
A I heard them talking about the fight.
Q Who did you hear talking about it?
A I don't know none of the boys.
Q Where did you come from here?
A New Orleans .
Q You were Just recently transferred here?
A I was transferred seven days ago.
■ Q Are you crippled?
A Yes, sir. - • .
Q What is your trouble?
A I have trouble before I came in the Army. ,
Q Didn't it affect you?
A It bothered me when I was taking my training.
Q Did it cripple yourleg?
A Paralyzed my leg.
Q Hii^ve you ever asked for a discharge?
A No, sir; I have not. ' .
Q And you didn't go down to the fight that night?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(WAEREN)
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A No, sir.
Q Were you crippled that night? ^v
A I vas crippled tefore I came here.
Q You can't walk any better now than you could then?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't go down to the fight, however?
A No, sir.
Q You haven't heard anyone taUcing ahout the fight since then'
A No, sir.
Q You heard them hut you don't know their names?
A I don't know their names. I know a few of the names of the
"boys that have "been in the stockade.
Q You have heard some of them talk about it since you have been
in the stockade?
A I heard some of them talking saying they weren't down there.
Q
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You heard some admit they were down there, haven't you?
I haven't heard nobody say they were down there.
Did you know Willie Cxirry or Thomas Basden?
I know them from being in the stockade.
Did you hear them say they weren't down there?
T^ey said they weren't down there.
What you have told me is all that you know about the case?
I don't loiow anything about it.
Q All right.
¥'
CDNFIDENTIAL
(WAI?REN) (END)
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Testimony of Pf c . Otia BaJcer, taken at
Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October IShh,
"by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
' The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial nomiber, organization and
station.
A Otis Baker, Pfc, 38302958, 651st Port Conpany, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Otis, are you familiar with your rights as a witness under
the 2lfth Article of War? ' ■
A Yes, sir. . . , •
Q Do you want me to explain it to you further?'
A I like to.
Q All right. (The 2l4-th Article of War was read and explained
to the witness) . Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where were you when ycufirst heard ahout the fight?
"A When I first heard about it I was in bed .
Q In what barracks do you sleep?
A I think it is 667.
Q What was the first thing that called your attention to the
fight?
A When the boys come back in the barracks and said they had a fight
downthere. Of course, I didn't pay any attention to that. I Just thoi:ight
it^es a light fight or something doim there. I didn't know that they had
that kind of a fight down there vrith those Italians.
Q Was that after the fight vms over when they told you aboi:ub it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before the fight started were you awake or asleep?
A Before it started I was awake because I was with ray wife.
Q Vihere were you vrith her?
A Well, from six to seven I was up to the big service club and
then we left from there and come on down here to this small service club
over here and then I left her and drew some equipment that we had to draw.
CDNFIDENTIAL
(baker)
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Q What time did you leave the little service club over here?
A I had a little kid and I let her walk and it took us about
something like 45 minutes to walk from the hig service dug down here.
From about six to seven, and h^ minutes, was about eight. I went up and
drew 3omeeq.uipment and went back to the mess hall and drawed some equipment,
and then I come on back to the service club and we stayed there about
three hours.
Q That would be along about eleven when you left there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you stay over in the service club until it closed?
A No, sir.
Q There were still people in there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Vflien you left the service club did you go to the mess hall?
A When I left theservice club me and my wife left and two MP's
told us to hurry up that it was getting late. Me and my wife sat there
and two or three busses passed and she went on home, I suppose, and then
I come on back to my barracks and finished packing my pack and my duffle
bag and got into bed . .
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Did you notice what time your Mfe left the post?
I couldn't tell youexactly what time she left.
Do you think it was after eleven o'clock?
Yes, sir.
Because the M"^ told you to hurry up?
Yes, I am positive it was after eleven o'clock, sir.
Then youwalked from the bus stop, which is up there by the
guardhouse, clear back 6o\m. here?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you were up aroimd the bus stop, did you hear any jeeps
or sirens or anything blowing down in this direction?
A No, sir. I seen the ambulance come from down this way.
Q Where did you see the ambulance?
A On ray way back.
Q Where did you meet them?
'^\:
CDNFIDENTIAL
(BAKEE)
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A Between this mess hall and the motor pool.
Q
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did you?
A
You met the ambulance going the other way or going this way?
Going the other way.
Hov many vere there?
One.
Did you see any jeeps along with them?
Some Jeep passed me hef ore I turned off the road .
Who was in those?
I don't laiow.
Did you see any wounded in them?
No, sir.
You didn't know that there had "been any trouble down there
Ho, sir.
Q When yougot "back to "barracks 667, that was when someone told
you there had been a fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was his name?
A Eoy Montgomery and Willie Curry.
Q They were "both in your barracks?
A Well, Boy Montgomery was in my barracks, but they both came
in the barracks .
Q What did they say?
A They said they had a fight and I know they had been down there
because they said they had a fight down there.
Q Did they say what they did?
A They didn't say what they did.
Q They Just said they had a fight and had been down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else come in?
A That's all.
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Q Kow, did you talk to anyone else that night ahout the fight?
A No, sir. Well, they were telling me. They just come in the
harracks and were talking ahout it and I heard it.
Q But you heard them say they were down there?
A Yes, sir.
Q after you heard that conversation, you didn't think it was a
very "big fight.
A No, sir; I didn't have the least idea.
Q You didn't think much of it?
A No, sir, "because I had my mind on my wife on account of leaving
them here and I wasn't much interested.
Q After you heard them discussing the fight, you heard no more
of it until the next morning.
A I didn't hear anything else atout it until we left — they
took us up and ate dinner and the Company Commander was talkiiag to us
about it and' told us a fellow had heen hxuig down there and said it was
a very serious case.
Q What conversation did you hear the hoys carrying on after the
Company Commander made that remark?
A I didn't hear nothing.
Q Didn't you hear anyone discussing it since then?
A Oh, well, I Have heard them talk ahout the fight, hut Just
for them sitting down and talking ahout what happened and all that.
Q Who have you heard say that he was down there besides Curry
and Montgomery?
A That's all, sir.
Q You haven't heard another soul in the guardhouse say they were
down there?
A No, sir.
Q Haven't you heard Wallace Wooden say anything about it?
A No, sir.
Q You know Wallace Wooden don't you?
A No, sir.
Q How about Herman Johnson, have you heard Herman talking about it?
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A No, sir.
Q Have you talked to Herman aljout it at all?
A No, sir.
Q Eov atout Sims, have you talked to Sims about it?
A No, sir. In fact, you see, I don't know anything much about
many of the men. Of course, I know Herman Johnson. Yousee, I was Just
transferred into this Company aTsout four months before this stuff happened,
I know some of the toys in my Company, hut I don't know any of the boys
in the 650th. When I leave here, I take a hath and get right out. I
just stay long enough to take a bath and get out and go to town and come
hack in the morning and go right on detail. Part of the time I stayed
up town.
Q All right.
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Testimony of Pf c . Jack Chapman, taken at
Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October 19it-i(-,
by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Jack Chapman, Pfc, 38557327, 651st Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2li-th Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q The night this fight happened, where were you when youfirst
heard about the fight?
A I was at my barracks.
Q That's 719^ or were you up in this barracks?
. A I was here in the first light barracks .
Q What number were you in?
A 667.
Q What was the first thing that you heard about the fight?
A The first thing I heard was the whistle blowing.
Q Right out in front of the barracks?
A I don't know what it was. It was down toward the mess hall.
Q Who blew the whistle?
A I don't know.
Q Then you came down?
A No, sir.
Q What did you do?
A I went to the front of the building.
Q What did you do there?
A When I got there I stood there a while and got off the steps
and the First Sergeant said if we didn't go back in he would call a
formation. I stood there listening what was going on and he saidhe would
call a formation and drill us .
-V,
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Q What did you do?
A I went "back on in. I went to the back door and some MP 'a came
in a Jeep and told us all to go back.;^
Q That whistle blew early in the fight, didn't it?
A Yes, sir, I guess so.
Q When the fight first started?
A Yes, sir.
Q By the time you went to the back door, the MP's arrived, that
was some h"^ minutes later?
A I had been standing on the front steps.
Q While you stood there in front, whom did you see down there
in this area?
A I didn't see anyone I knew. I couldn't make out anyone down
there.
Q Whom did you see come back in the building after you went back
in there?
A I didn't pay any attention to them.
Q Well, you knew some of them?
A Yes, but I didn't pay any attention.
Q When you went to the back door, you saw that it wasn't blocked,
there wasn't anyone there?
A Yes .
Q So you went down the Italian area?
A Ho, air.
Q When did you go down there?
A I didn't go down there.
Q Is there anything else you want to add to the statements that
you have made?
A No, sir.
Q You told me the other day that after the fight was over you
heard William G. Jones and Ceaser and some of them talking up in the
barracks, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
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Q >fliat did you I'ear Jones say?
A Well, I t>ld you that I heard Jones say that he had an axe.
Q That's William G. Jones?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did he say he did vith the aae?
A He didn't say, sir.
Q You heard Ceaser talking vith Jones in the barracks after
the fight, and vhat did Ceaser say?
A I heard him talking vith him after the fight?
Q You heard him talking; yes. You heard Ceaser talking. You
heard him say something. What he did dovn there? What vas that?
A You mean over in the tent area?
Q Yes.
A Well, I don't knov just which one of them said that he stuck
his head out the windov. '^
Q Who else did you hear talking ahout it?
A (No audible answer)
Q How about Herman Johnson?
A I heard Herman Johnson say he lost his shovel down there in the
Italian area.
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Did he say he had taken it down there and left it or --
I heard him say he lostit.
Who else did you hear talking about it?
Hamilton said he lost his dog tag down in the area.
Now, that is all you heard anyone saying about the fight?
Yes, sir.
0 Have you heard anyone else say they were down there except
these persons you have named?
A Wo, sir. . ' ■
Q How about Willie Curry?
A Well, I told you about him that he drove the jeep.
Q Anyone else?
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A No, sir.
Q Frank Hughes? Do you know Frank?
A No. , . .
Q, Hov atout Wallace Wooden?
A I don't know him.
Q You don't know Wallace? "' -
A If that's him sitting out there, I didn't know who he was. You
asked me about Frank Hughes.
Q Did you talk to Frank about this?
A Is he here? I thought I left him in Texas.
Q No, he's overseas, but he's coming back. Did you know him?
A Yes, I met him in Texas.
Q Did you hear him talking about it?
A No, sir.
Q ^\'ho else did you hear talking about it?
A I never heard anyone else except what I told you, sir.
Q Nov?, when Johnson was telling about losing his shovel or spade -
A Just a minute, sir, they wasn't telling me, sir.
Q You heard him making the statement?
A Yes.
Q He had Just come back upstairs .
' A That was in the guardhouse afterwards .
Q Just what did Herman say about his spade?
A Just that he lost his spade dovm there. He said he lost his
trench shovel.
Q Did he say if he ever found it?
A I never remember him hearing him say it, sir.
Q
That's all.
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Testimony of T/5 Henry Jupiter, taken at
Fort La,-w-ton, Washington, on J October 19^, "by-
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Villiams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organiz8.tion
and station.
A Henry Jupiter, T/5, 56897255, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lavrton, Washington.
Q, Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2it-th Article of War?
A Yes, sir; it was read to me down the Port.
Q You are familiar with it, are you?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of lit- August IS^k, were you present at Fort
La.'vrton when there was a fight between the Italians and the colored soldiers?
A Yes, sir. .
Q Where were you when you first learned of the fight?
A I was upstairs shooting dice.
Q In "barracks 719?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who told you about the fight?
A The whistle was blowing and there was a fight down there.
Q Who blew the whistle?
A I sure don't know.
Q Hadn't there been someone in the barracks just previous to that
asking for a whistle?
A No, sir; not that I know.
Q Wasn't there somebody that came in the barracks Just previous
to the whistle being blown that said "everybody out, there is a fight"?
A It must have been downstairs.
Q You didn't hear them come in and ask for a whistle or "come on
out and Join in the fight"?
A No, sir.
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Q You vent dovnstairs after you heard the whistle bloving?
A No, sir; we didn't q.uit shooting dice. I walked out in the
street and there was a guy drove up in a jeep and he stopped and they
was talking with him. Pinkney said, "Boys you all stand by and if you hear
me holler you be damn siire and come." They turned and went that way and
I went in the barracks and went in. the latrine and I looked at this boy
Montgomery. He was laying up there and had a hole in his hea.d . j didn't
see his head bleeding so I come up there by the bunk I sleep and got this
boy Suitliff and started shooting craps again.
Q Henry, when you first vent outside and the MP's came up, didn't
they put Willie Montgomery in the jeep and take him away?
A Ko, sir.
Q Are you sure the man that was hurt, when you first went down-
stairs and observed him, was Willie Montgomery?
A Yes, sir; laying in his bunk.
Q Are you sure?
A Yes, sir.
Q It wasn't Snow?
A Wo, sir; I didn't know Snow was hurt until he come in from
the hospital.
Q When you first went downstairs, what was going on down there?
A Well, a lot of boys in 775 was standing out there and some
of them were standing there talking.
Q There was a bunch next to the mess hall?
A They said they had a party over in the mess hall.
Q Wasn't there a bunch of people gathered around there outside
of the mess hall?
A Yes, sir.
they?
Q And they were tearing down that fence that was there, weren't
I don't know.
C And afljer you saw that fence over there being torn down, did
you hear any of them talking?
A Ko, sir.
Q You didn't hear any talking at all around the time Willie was
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carried up to the front of the tuilding?
A He waa in the harracks when I seenhim.
■barracks laying on his bunk:. -, '
They had him in the
Q You didn't hear any talk about Willie being hurt?
A They said he was hit. I went to look at him myself.
turned around and came back to where I sleej).
I Just
Q After you and Suitliff got in the second game of dice, how
long did you remain in that game before it was broken up?
A We didn't shoot so long. I q.uit and went to bed.
Q Did you walk out of the game?
A It was right by where I slept. I backed up and put on my
clothes and went to sleep and the MP's came in and asked for the boy that
was hurt.
Q While you were lying in your bunk, or even shooting dice, wasn't
there a bunch of boys that came in from the fight?
A No, sir; I didn't see any.
Q After you got in your bunk, wasn't there some of them that
came in who had been down to the fight?
A I don't know that they had been do/n to the fight. A lieutenant
and a colonel came in and said "put out the lights."
Q Who did you talk to or who did you hear talking that night
in the barracks after the fight was over who definitely said they vrere
down in the fight?
A I didn't hear enyone.
Q You haven't heard a single soul?
A Ho, sir.
Q After the fight was over, and the following morning on the
15th, whom did you hear say had been down to the fight?
A I didn't hear no one say they had been down to the fight. I
didn't know anyone had been in it. This boy, Hamilton, we was all in
the stockade and when they drove up with him he told CaptainFelin that
they had him and he said they didn't know what they would do with him. He
said he didn't care that he didn't have nothing to do with the other boys.
We was all in the compound over here.
Q He told them he was in the fight; didn't he?
A Sure, they got his dog tag from down there.
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Q Q And Clark said he was in the fight; didn't he?
A Ee said he went down and got hit.
Q Didn't Snow say he was in the fight?
A No, sir. I asked Snow where he got hit and he said he was
"beat up on the street.
Q Ee was on the street hut down in the Italian area, wasn't he?
A I don't know.
Q Now, who did you state that you have talked to since the night
of the fight that stated they were down in the area?
A There wasn't no hoy that I heard say was down there iDut this
John D. Hamilton and Clark and this boy in the 651st, Roy Montgomery.
Q So, William G. Jones and Alvin Clark and Roy Montgomery all
have told you that they were down in the area? I mean, all have talked
about being down in tie area.
A I haven't heard that William G. Jones was down there. He said
■he was over there in the mess hall with a girl. He said they had a little
party over there in that mess hall. That's where he said he was with
a gir. This boy Clark said he went down there to see what was going on
and no sooner than he got down there he got knocked out. That Hamilton
boy never did say what he was doing.
Q
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Q
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Q
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poker .
How about Herman Johnson?
I don't know nothing about those boys.
And Wallace Wooden?
I haven't heard him say he was down there.
He's in your Company isn't he?
Yes, sir. He said he was stand ir^g in 719^ in theback, playing
Q But he wasn't, was he?
A I don't know. I v;ent upstairs and King cut my hiar and after
I got a haircut I come in the front of the barracks.
Q Who cut your hair?
A Eoy King.
Q Cpl. King?
A Yes, sir; a T/5. He's an old fellow about my age. Ee cut my
hair. During the time this fight started, when the whistle blew, a fellow
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was cutting his hair. He done cut all our hair and I think a new guy, I
don't know his name, was cutting King's hair at the time. I can't tell
you his name. I was up there shooting crap.
Q During the fight, youwere up there shooting crap with Richard
Suitliff.
A He said he didn't shoot no craps up there. I know he was up
there around the game.
Q Who were you shooting with while the fight was going on?
A Me and Jesse Sims, Stanley Bowden, Scott, and Addison George
and Walter Jackson.
Q All of yourv^ere shooting crap while the fighting was going on?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you hear them fighting down in the area?
A Whem we quit and came downsairs, I iv^.lked out and looked down
there hut I didn't heard nothing going on. I was standing out in the
street and the Jeep stopped and Pinkndy walked down and said, "If you
he£ir me holler you hotter damn soon come." The jeep left and I went hack
in the harracks and saw Montgomery.
Q You know that Plnkney went down toward the Italian area
when this hoy came up in the jeep?
A I wasn't out there when they came hack.
Q I mean, when they left you saw them leave and go down toward
the Italian area?
A They took Pinkney and went hack that way.
Q Didn't they turn down that road?
A I don't know. I went hack to the barracks.
Q I guess you know, Henry, that Alvin Clark has identified you
as heing in the Italian area on the night of 1^1- August in the vicinity
of huilding 7^0 with a cluh in your hands?
Q
A
No, sir; I do not. He couldn't identify me.
He did identify you though.
I don't know, sir.
Q You also know that Willisjn Jones saw you standing in the Italian
area around huilding 715 with a cluh in your heinds and also stated that
later you talked to him and told him that you wrapped several of the
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Italians?
A No, sir.
Q Did you tell him that? " •
A Wo, sir; I did not.
Q Did you go down in the vicinity of the orderly room vith a
clut in your haiids?
A No, sir.
Q Did you go down in the vicinity of building 708 with a club in
your hands?
A No, sir.
Q I want to further tell you that Richard Suitliff has been
identified as being down inthe Italian area by several persona on the
night of ll<- August, 19^14 diurlng this fight?
A Yes.
Q And you how state that he was up there in the building when
you were up there shooting crap.
A He was up there to the game. He told the man he didn't shoot
no crap. He went up but came downstairs.
Q You don't know where Richard Suitliff was during the fight?
A I wasn't paying no attention. I was keeping count of my money.
Q You also know that Jesse Sims has confessed that he was down
in the Italian area and entered into the fight on the night of ik August
19^1<-, don't you?
A No, sir; I don't. ; •. " ' '
Q Well, if Jesse Sims told us or has testified that he was doivn
in the area on the night of Ik August 19^^, and participated in the
fight, then what would you say abtout him being up in the dice game?
A I can't say nothing about that.
Q You are not sure that he was up there, are you?
A 1 BM sure . . ■
Q You are sure that Jesse Sims was up there all during the
fight shooting dice with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q
Now you mentioned Walter Jackson. You know that Walter Jackson
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haa teen identified as being down in the fight on the night of 14 Avigust
19l<-ll-, don't you, Henry?
A No, sir.
Q You also know that some of the colored soldiers saw him down
there and have testified to what he was doing do'tm there, don't you?
A No, sir; I don't.
Q If they testified to that, what would you say to him heing
up there playing dice with you?
A All I can do is tell what we were doing.
Q You further testified that Addison George was playing with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q rtrt;Do you know that Addison George has testified under oath that
he was yGown in the Italian area, but hack in building TOO watching the
fight going on on the night of Ik August?
A Wo, sir; I don't.
Q If he testified to that, what about your testimony of him
being in the dice game with you?
A That is all I can tell — what we were doing.
Q Well, Henry, you know that none of these fellows about whom
you have testified were playing dice with you during the fight that went
on in the Italian area on the night of Ik August, don't you?
A Yes, sir; they really was. I wouldn't tell you a lie.'
Q They were playing with youbefore the fight, but they weren't
playing with you during the fight, were they?
A Yes, sir.
Q What are you going to do?
A There is nothing I can do but tell the truth about it.
Q You have been identified by Clark and Jones as being down in the
area and Jones saw you in the vicinity of the orderly room with a club
and you told Jones that you did hit some Italians.
A No, sir; I did not. I did not even go down there. I know
better and the Lord knows that. I did come out and stand out in that
street .
Q You weren't playing no poker?
A No, sir.
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Q ANd you weren't shooting dice?
A Yes, sir; I really was.
Q la there anything else, whether I have asked you or not,
which you want to tell me ahout this case?
A No, sir; nothing I know aljout it.
Q All right.
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(JUPITER) (EKD)
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Testimony of Pfc. Joseph Scott, taken at
Fort Lawton, Wsshington, on 5 Octolser 19^4-^1-, ■by-
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your ftill name, grade, serial number, organization and
station.
A Joseph Scott, Pfc, 5o558950, 65l8t Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2i)-th Article of War?
A No, sir; I am sorry I don't.
Q I will explain them to you. (The 2Uth Article of War was
read and explained to the witness) Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of l^i- August 19^^, were you present at Fort
Lawton when the colored soldiers attaclced the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what Tjarracks were you when you first heard the fight?
A Sir, I heard it mentioned the next morning.
Q Where did you sleep that night?
A In ray hed.
Q In what Ijarracks?
A 667.
Q And you were up in 667 the night the fight happened?
A Yes, sir.
Q What time did you go to "bed that night?
A I went to hed between seven and eight, sir.
Q During the night weren't you awakened "by a tremendous noise
aroimd the "barracks?
A No, sir; I wasn't.
Q
A
Q
Didn't anything awaken you at all that night?
One "boy jumped to awake me.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1473
(SCOTT)
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Q Who vas that?
A Eohert Sparks.
Q What did he want to awaken you for?
A He had some money there in his hands and I remember turning
over and seeing money in his hands .
Q Wes he offering you the money or something?
A He and I had heen gambling together.
Q And he had been the higgest vinner from the group you had
"been gambling with?
A I suppose so. He and I, since we have been in the Army, we have
been gambling together and I got broke two or three days before then and
I had no money so there was nothing for me to do.
Q Did your friend give you a little of that money?
A No, sir. ; . .
Q After he awakened you, youwent back to sleep?
A He never woke me up. I remember turning over.
Q After he did arouse you then you went back to sleep?
A Yes, sir. ,, .
Q And you didn't wake up until the next morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q You heard about the fight didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you hear talk going on about it?
A I Just heard they had a fight.
Q Who told you?
A I Just overheard a conversation.
Q Who did you hear talking about it?
A Sir, I couldn't give the men's names.
Q You know who it v/as, don't you?
A Wo, sir; I was in tie latrine. I only heard they had a fight.
Q You don't know who the person was that was talking?
A Wo, sir; I couldn't be for sure.
CONFIDENTIAL
(SCOTT)
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Q Who do you think it was?
A I have to tell the truth.
Q Well, you can tell the truth "by saying who you thought it vras
talking ahout the fight.
A But it was a group in there.
Q What were they saying ahout the fight?
A The only thing I heard them saying was they had a fight down
in the Italian area.
Q Did they say the colored soldiers heat up the Italians?
A No, sir; they didn't say it like that.
Q Later on you had a formation, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And after reveille, didn't one of the lieutenants tell you
that the Company got themselves in trouble?
A No, sir; not at reveille.
Q When was that that the lieutenant made that remark?
A He made that remark when we was up in the compound area up there.
Q After you heard the lieutenant tell your Company that you
certainly got yourselves in a lot of trouble, there was quite a bit of
talk about the fight, v/asn't there?
A No, sir; there probably was but I didn't hear it.
Q Where were you?
. A I vm.s there.
Q You didn't hear it?
A Wo, sir; I didn't hear the talk what was done afterwards.
Q You said there probably was a lot of talk about it.
A Yes, sir.
Q How do you know that?
A I said I didn't hear it. •
Q How do you know they did any talking at all?
A I don't know, I Just made that remark.
Q You heard a lot of talking about It since that time, haven't you?
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(SCOTT)
A 7 u
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A No, Sir; I only heard two toys aay they was down there.
Q Who was that?
A I heard Eoy Montgomery and Willie Curry.
Q What did they say they did down there?
A Well, sir, I heard Willie Cvirry say he went down and he it
one man.
Q Did he say he drove the Jeep into a tent?
A No, sir; I didn't hear him say that.
Q What did Eoy say?
A He said he was down there and hit one man,
Q Did he say whathe hit him with?
A I- don't know what he said.
Q A two hy four? '..''■
A No, sir; I don't know.
Q Who else?
A They are the only two boys that I can swear to.
Q But you think you heard some mone.
A No, sir.
Q Well, you heard quite a hit of talk ahout It, haven't you?
A No, sir, I haven't.
Q They even talk about it now don't they?
A I Just came out of the hospital this morning.
Q Well, when we first started this investigation, you heard a
lot of boys talking about it and us bringing them down and questioning them,
J. A The only thing I knew was bringing them down here.
Q And they said they told us they were in the fight, didn't they?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever hear Willie Basden say what he did in the fight?
A No, sir.
Q You heard Wallace Wooden tell about his part in the fight.
A No, sir. I don't know Wallace Wooden. ,
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(SCOTT)
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Q He's sitting right out there'.
A I saw a fellow sitting out there.
Q Don't you know him as Wallace Wooden? .
A No, sir; I don't.
Q Have you "been in the guardhouse atout five weeks and you have
been around Wallace some, haven't you?
A Not as I know him, sir.
Q Those are the only two persons whom you have heard making any
conversation concerning their part in the fight since the day that
it happened?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is there anything else, whether I have asked you or not, that
you would like to tell me concerning the fight?
A No, sir; there isn't.
Q All right.
CONFIDENTIAL
(SCOTT) (END)
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Further testimony of Pvt. Eobert Msthls,
taken at Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October
19^h, hy Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Willlama, IGD.
The witness was remlndecl that he was still
under oath and of his rights as a witness.
Q I Just want to call you in again, Robert, and tell you that you
have "been identified by three persons and those persons are Willie Curry,
Hoy Montgomery and Willie Prevost. Willie Prevost identified you as
being the man with the axe chopping on the door. Roy Montgomery Identified
you as being in the area with the club in your hand and Willie Curry
identified you as waiting at the door there to get In with the club In
your hand; that is, inside the building in that little room what we ,
call Room "R". Do you remember where that was?
A They ain't told you that, sir.
Q What?
A You can get out of that. They ain't nobody told you that.
Q Nobody told us?
A Nobody told you. They ain't told you that.
Q Nobody has told me that you were down there?
A That is right. They couldn't.
Q Willie Curry didn't tell me you were down there Is that what
you are testifying?
A That is right. • '
Q Roy Montgomery said you weren't down in the area, is that
your belief?
A That is right.
Q How about Willie Prevost?
A I don't know him.
Q You think none of those people saw you down there?
A How could they see me down there?
Q I am just telling you that they saw you down in the area. You
Just said a minute ago that they didn't tell me that. I am Just making
that statement to you that they did tell me that . I wanted to ask you
what you thought of It.
A Why don't Jrou bring them up here now?
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(MATHIS)
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Q Ve don't confront people with -witnesses.
A No, sir?
Q Not until the trial. In the trial we will confront you
with them.
A Well, when the trial comes off they will he there and I will
he there, too.
Q You have nothing more to say?
A No, sir, I have nothing more to say.
Q That's all. I Just wanted to tell you that so you would know
who would testify against you when the trial comes up.
A That tickles me.
Q Does it tickle you "because I am telling you. Is that what
you are laughing ahout?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. That's all.
CONFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of Pvt. Walter Jackson, taken
at Fort Lavton, Washington, on k October 19^^^
ty Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q, State your fullname, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Walter Jackson, Pvt., 38561558, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2il-th Article of War?
A I don't know.
Q I will explain them to you. (The 2l4-th Article of War was
read and explained to the witness) . Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of Ik August 19^^^ when the colored soldiers
attacked the Italians, where were you?
A Up in thetarracks — 719
Q What were you doing in the harracks when you first heard ah out
the fight?
A Well, we was shooting craps up there.
Q With whom were you shooting craps?
A Everyhody -- seven or eight of us. Two what I know was there.
Q Who were they?
A Addison George and Willie Scott.
Q And while you were shooting craps this fight started?
A Yes, air.
Q What was the first thing you heard about the fight?
A Well, the first thing I heard, after the First Sergeant blew
the whistle, he was calling the boys out, and after he was down there
in front of the office he blew the whistle. We come on down to see what
was the formation or what it was and after we got down there we heard
them talking about the riot.
Q And where did you go?
A He told us not to come out of the barracks . Them was in there
CDNFIDENTIAL
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(JACKSON)
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stay in there. Notody come out. He was making other hoys come in.
Q Then you went on outside and talked to somehody?
A No, sir; I didn't go outside at all.
Q What did you do?
A I went to the barracks .
Q IftLat did you do when you got to the harracks?
A I went hack and fixed my hunk.
Q Who was shooting dice with you up there that you knew?
A Addison George amd Willie Scott, them is the only two I
rememher was there because I was right beside them.
Q And you went up and started fixing your bunk?
A I stayed downstairs but I was upstairs shooting dice.
Q What did you do downstairs while you were waiting down there?
A That's where I stayed — downstairs. I went in and fixed
my bunk.
Q Did you go to bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q Wasn't this fighting going on all this time?
A No, sir; the fight was over.
••
Q Had the boys started coming back from the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q How came in that had been in the fight?
A I don't know who they were.
Q Well, you heard them talking about it?
A Yes, I heard a bunch of them talking about it.
Q Who was talking about it? ...
A I don't know, sir^' who they was.
Q You don't know who they were?
A I would know them if I was looking at them.
Q Well, after you got back in the barracks, didn't some of them
come back in the barracks?
CDNFIDENTIAL
(JACKSON)
1481
l8lt
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A From down there?
Q Yes.
A I know they come tack in the "barracks. •
Q Who were they?
A I don't know, sir. I don't know who was doira there.
Q Well, you heard them talking after you got in the barracks?
A Ho, sir.
Q Wasn't there any talk in the barracks?
A No, sir; if there was I didn't hear any.
Q Well, the next day, after the fight was over, you heard some
of them talking about the fight? ■
A No, sir.
Q And you haven't heard anyone talking about the fight since
that day?
A No, sir.
Q V/hom did you hear discussing it in the stockade?
A Nobody is going to say they were down there.
Q You mean no one has told you they were down there?
A No, sir.
Q Were you down there?
. A No, sir.
Q Did you ever talk to Edward Senders on the night of the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Did you call Edward Sanders yellow for not going down there?
A No, sir.
Q Did you and Edward Sanders ever have -any trouble?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know Willie Ellis?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know Jesse Sims?
A Yes, sir.
confidential
:aq2
( JACKSON)
185
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Q Do you know James Chandler?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know Willie Jones? '
A Yes, sir.
Q Nov, Walter, we have evidence from all of these people that
I have Just mentioned that definitely places you down in the Italian area
on the night of August l^^-th.
A Well, they sure told you wrong, sir.
Q And not only places you down there hut tells us what youdid
while you were down there.
A They told you wrong, sir.
Q You, furthermore, have "been JBentif ied "by an Italian who was in
the Italian area and who saw you down there oh the night of the lUth
of Axigust and told what you were doing. • ■ ,
A No, sir; couldn't nohody tell you they saw me down there.
Q Willie G. Jones said he saw you throw rocks into the barracks
of the Italians while you were in the Italian area on the night in
question.
A He sure told you wrong, sir.
Q Chandler saw you in the area and identified you definitely as
heing in the area.
A He told you wrong, sir.
Q Jesse Sims saw you in the area and said that you were with
the group that started in the fight first. .
A No, sir.
Q That you went down into the area along with Luther Larkin,
Snow and other people who were in the first group that made the attack
on "barracks 708 on the night of August Ik, 19UI+.
A No, sir; couldn't nobody told you that.
Q Now, do you deny that those people whom I am telling you have
testified, said what they have said, or do you Just deny that you were
not down there?
A If they told you they saw me down there they were wrong.
Q Willie Ellis saw you while you were in building 715, that's
the orderly room down there, and definitely places you there with a club
CONFIDENTIAL
1483
(JACKSOU)
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in your hand and what youwere doing inside the "building.
A No, sir; if he did he sure told you wrong.
Q Edward Sanders testified that eifter the fight was over he came
hack to the harracks, 719 > and while in that "barracks you came in and he
and you got into an argument and you called him a yellow dog and said
that all the other "boys that didn't go down there that night were yellow
dogs for not going. Now, did you say that?
A Who said that?
Q Edward Sanders.
A He told you wrong. Ve ain't never had no argiment.
Q Do you know where Addison George was while the fight was
going on?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was he?
A Shooting dice.
% And you and Addison George and Willie Scott were shooting dice
all during the fight, were you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is there anything else or any further information that you
want to give in this case?
A That's all.
CDNFIDENTIAL
1484
(JACKSON) (END)
I- •;•
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Testimony of Prt. Freddie Calvert, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on k October 19^^,
by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Freddie Calvert, Pvt., 56696156, 650th Port Compaiiy, Fort
Lavton, Washington. ^
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2lt-th Article of War?
A I beg your pardon?
Q (The 2Uth Article of War was read and explaindd to the
witness) . Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of ll<- August 19^, were you present at Fort
Lawton when the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir; I was present.
Q Where were you when you first heard of the fight?
A When I first heard anything it must have been after because
the Major came in and he told the fellows to turn out the lights and
I heard someone talking.
Q Were you in barracks 719?
A Yes.
Q Before the Major came to barracks 719^ what noise had you
heard on the outside?
A I didn't hear any noise at all.
Q What had you been doing previous to that?
A I was asleep.
Q What time did you go to bed?
A Between eight and nine o'clock.
Q And you slept continually until awakened by the MP's coming
into the building?
A I don't know whether it was the MP's or who, but anyway I woke
up and saw the Major.
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1485
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kh
hi
Q Well, previous to the time the Major came into the "building
had you heard a lot of noise?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't a lot of toys come inside the "building and talk about
the fight?
A ITo, sir.
Q Didn't you hear the whistle being blovn?
A No, sir; I couldn't hear the whistle blowing when I was asleep.
Q After the fight was over, and after the Major came back to the
barracks, did you remain awake?
A No, sir; I didn't remain awake. I went to sleep right after --
it was about five minutes .
Q While you were awake, and while the Major was there, wasn't
• there some discussion among the men in the barracks who had been down
there eind what they done?
A The only thing I could hear was somebody was telling something
but who they were I don't know.
Q What were they talking about?
A I imagine they were trying to tell them something concerning
what started it.
Q Since the day following, while you have been in the guardhouse,
you have: heard considerable talk about the fight, haven't you?
A No, sir; I haven't heard talking about it.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
there?
A
in my little tent.
Q Who was that?
A That was the fellows that was in my tent — Well, the fellows
that was in my tent was Elmer Briscoe, Walter Ruff en and Edward Sanders.
Q What did you hear Edward Sanders say about it?
A He said he was up and they were discussing something.
You heard talk about it? . .
A little of it. •
Who did you hear talking about it?
I don't recall any particular names.
Well, surely you remember someone who mentioned being down
Well, the only ones mentioned it to me was the fellows that was
CDNFIDENTIAL
(CALVERT)
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Q He said he was dovn there, didn't he?
A No, sir; he wasn't concerned.!
q Did he say who was down there?
A Wo, sir.
Q Did Walter Etiffen say who wa^ down there?
A No, sir; he said he knew who wasn't down there.
Q Did he say he was down there?
A No, sir.
Q Elmer Briscoe -- did you talk to him atout it?
A We was Just discussing that we hoped we wouldn't be incriminated
in there because we didn't do anything.
Q Elmer was down there though.
A No, sir.
Q Didn't he say he was down there?
A No, sir.
Q Who have you heard talking about the hanging?
A I haven't heard anyone say who did the hanging.
Q Don't youknow Herman Johnson?'
A No, sir; I don't.
Q You know Wallace Wooden, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Didn't he tell you that he did the hanging?
A Well, I knew him in my Company.
Q Didn't he tell you, though, while you have been in the guardhouse?
A I haven't talked to him.
Q Do you know him? ^
A Yes, sir.
Q You can identify him when you see him?
A Yes, sir.
Q You weren't in the fight?
A No, sir; I was asleep in my barracks.
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Q Were you crippled on the night of the fight?
A Yes, sir.
Q Hov long have you "been crippled?
A I imagine it must have "been, as near as I can recall, eight
to ten days "before the 1st of August.
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What was wrong with you?
Oh, I have "been having trouhle with my hack' and also my leg.
Have you had any examination made ofit?
Yes, I had an X-ray.
What did they say was wrong?
They said they coxildn»t find any broken hones.
Q You know that you were identified "by one Pisciottano, an Italian,
.as being down in the Italian area on the night of ik August.
Q
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I was identified?
Yes.
How many times was I identified?
One time. Do you remember the time that he identified you?
Well, that must have been when he was brought to our Company.
Q When he looked at you soldiers in the line up weren't you
identified as being one of the soldiers that was down inthe Italian area?
A I must have been. I don't know who all was identified.
Q Whom do you know that was down there in the area?
A I don't know anybody that was down there.
Q And you went to bed about nine o'clock and slept right straight
through until the MP's came in and woke you up?
A Yes, somebody woke me up.
Q After they woke you up, was there anyone came in the building
and talked about the fight?
A No, sir; the only noise I heard was the Major and Sergeant
came in right after me.
Q Did he take someone out of the building when he came in?
A No, sir; I don't think he did. I didn't get up to see. I coixld
tell the Sergeant by his voice.
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Q The First Sergeant?
A yes, sir.
Q la there anythiing else, whether I asked you or not, that you
want to tell me ahout this case?
A No, sir; only that I know I am innocent. I don't know of
anyone teing incriminated in it.
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Testimony of Pvt. Levert Vllllams, taken
at Fort Lawton, Washington, on k Octo'ber 19^-,
ty Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, I&D.
The witness vas sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization
and station.
A Levert Williams, Pvt., 3l6^2^'^k, 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2Hh Article of War?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of ik August 19^^, were you in Fort Lawton
when the colored soldiers attacked the Italians?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what harracks were you sleeping that night?
A 668, I helieve it is.
Q Those hlack barracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you in the "barracks when you first heard of the fight?
A Yes, sir. r
Q Who told you ahout the fight first?
A Well, I was in "bed when it started and I got up and went to
the door and William Cunningham was passing by the barracks and I asked
him what was going on and he told me they were fighting,
Q Where was William Cunningham?
A He was coming down this way.
Q What did he have in his hands?
A I never noticed anything.
Q Didn't he have a club?
A Wo, sir.
Q After you talked to Cunningham you came with him?
A No, sir.
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Q What did you do?
A I had raj under clothes on and I vent in and put my trousers
on and hy that time the MP's were making them get hack.
Q, When you came outside of the huilding vhat was going on
dovn hy the mess hall here? > '
A I didn't come dovn.
Q You coixld see, couldn't you?
A The streets were fvill of people.
Q At least you saw those people?
A Yes, sir.
Q And there was a lot of talking, wasn't there?
A Yes, sir.
Q And a whistle "being "blown?
A I didn't hear a whistle, sir. .
Q Now, while you still stood out in front of the "building, you
saw a "bunch of people who had gathered around the mess hall start down
to the Italian area.
A No, sir; I didn't "because the MP^s were outside of the area at
that time when I came out of my "barracks.
Q Had you "been asleep?
A Yes, sir; I had.
Q How come you woke up? ■ •
A Well, I heard all the noise.
Q What noise did you hear that woke you up?
A Well, "boys going out of the harracks and noise out on the street,
Q "Who did you hear go out of the "barracks?
A I never paid any attention.
Q Who did yousee go out?
A No one.
Q Who did you see go outside besides Cunningham?
A One hoy I recognized because the First Sergeant was talking
to him. I saw the majority of the hoys out there, "but I didn't pay any
attention to them.
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Q Wtio^ tesides Cunningham, went down to the mess hall?
A I don't want to say Cunningham went down there 'because he was
passing my "barracks.
Q He was going down that way, wasn't he? ■
A I don't know where he was going.
Q After you went hack to your barracks, did you hear a lot more
noise down in the Italian area?
A No, sir; only cars and MP's and the Major and things that was
outside.
Q Veil, that was later on in the evening when you heard that?
A That is all I heard.
Q When you first got up all you heard was what was going on
out in the mess hall?
A Out in the street.
Q And they were talking?
A Yes, sir.
Q And hollering?-'
A Yes, sir.
Q And was that fence "being torn down over there; could you hear
them tearing down a fence?
A I don't know anything about that.
Q
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You didn't go down there?
No, sir. •
You went "back in your barracks?
Yes, sir; I went back and went to sleep.
You didn't go right off to sleep, did you?
No, sir.
Q While you lay there a bunch of the boys came in the building
didn't they?
A Well, the First Sergeant came in the building and an MP came
in the building and told them to put the lights out and that's about all.
Q Thatwas after you got back in bed?
A Yes, sir.
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Q How long after you had been In bed did the MP's come in?
A 20 or 50 minutes.
Q Now, after you went back to bed, and after you waited about 20
minutes, the MP's came in and said "turn out the lights"?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you turn out the lights?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who turned the lights out? . • ,^
A I don't know, sir.
Q You didn't go to sleep right then?
A I would say; no, sir. I don't think I did.
Q You stayed awake a while longer?
A Yes, sir.
Q After you got in bed, yet youweren't asleep, maxiy of the boys
came back into the barracks?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who were those came back?
A I don't know.
Q You heard some conversation concerning this fight while you
were in bed?
A The only thing I probably heard was what caused it,
Q Wasn't there a lot of them said theyhad been down there and
what they did while down there?
A I don't know.
Q Who sleeps in the barracks?
A Well, Sgt. Palmer, Frank Hughes, a lot of boys.
Q DilTyou hear Frank come back in?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear Frank talk about this any time after the fight
DT even during the fight?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't see Frank in the barracks diiring the fight, did you?
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A Well, he was in there hef ore the fight started .
Q But after the fight started he vasn't in there?
A No, sir.
Q Now, do you know he was in there "before the fight started?
A Because they were playing some cards.
Q Ah out what time?
A They was playing some "skin" ajid Sanders and I was playing —
Q Did you see Johnnie Sanders that night?
A No, sir; the early part of the evening I saw him in the mess
hall.
Q Now, you and Hughes then were playing a little game early
in the evening?
A No, sir; Johnnie Sanders and I.
Q Who was Hughes playing with?
A Joe DiMaggio and a cou|)le other hoys.
Q How long did they play?
A I don't know, sir, hecause I left them playing after I got hroke
and I went to "bed . ...
Q When youwent to sleep were they still playing?
A Yes, sir.
Q And who all "besides Hu^ies was playing?
A Hughes and Demartra and I didn't recognize all of them. I
wasn't paying any attention to them.
Q Was Greshum playing?
A No, sir. ' '
Q Was Herman Gtentry playing?
A No, sir, he wasn't playing.
Q Jefferson D. Green? "
A No, sir, he wasn't playing.
Q You know Jefferson D. Green?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was Willie Basden up there?
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A No, sir.
Q Herman Johnson?
A He is in the 65l3t.
Q Was Arthur Williams?
A No, sir, he wasn't playing.
Q Where was he?
A I don't know where he was. I was in "bed.
Q Did you get a haircut from Arthur that nigh?
A Not that night.
Q Had you gotten one previously?
A Well, I don't loiow when, but he cuts my hair all the time.
Q Now, after you were moved from the "barracks were you put in
the stockade?
A Yes, we went up here.
Q First you were moved up here on the other side of the post
in the #1 area?
A Yes, sir.
Q While over there who did you hear talking ahout this fight?
A They wasn't discussing it.
Q You didn't hear anyone discuss that fight over there?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't you hear Willie Curry discuss it?
A I don't know Willie Curry.'
Q Did you hear Wallace Wooden discuss it? , . ■ ' ..
A No, sir.
Q After you came hack to the stockade who did you hear discuss it?
A I didn't hear anyone discuss it hecause only five of us live
in a tent and we are drilling the majority of the time.
Q At night who do you hear?
A Nohody.
Q You haven't heard anyhody discuss it since the night of Atigust l^i-?
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A Ko, sir;.! haven't.
Q You stay up there in this "barracks vith five men?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who are those five men?
A Clark --
Q Alvin Clark?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who else?
A Wilhur Jenkins, Paul Ellis, Herman Dowell and myself.
Q Who vas the 2d name you gave?'
A Wilbur Jenkins.
Q You haven't heard any of them discuss it?
A No, sir.
Q You knov who was down there, don't you?
A No, sir; I don*t.
Q Do you know William G. Jones?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was he down there?
A I wouldn't say "because I wasn't down there.
Q Well, William G. Jones said you were down there?
A William G. Jones told a story, I would say, sir.
Q During the night of August Ik, 19^, did you say in the presence
of William G. Jones that you had hit a bunch of those Italians down
there that night?
A No, sir; I didn't.
Q Did you say in the presence of Jones that "Let's go down and
whip those damn 'Dagoes'"?
A No, sir; I didn't.
Q You didn't make those two statements?
A I didn't see him.
Q Did you make either of those two statements on the night of
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August 111-? . • ■
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever say it?
A No, sir.
Q Either in the presence of Jones or anyone else that you had
hit some of those Italians that night?
A No, sir.
Q Did you say in the presence of Jones or axiyone else, during
the fight, "Let's go down and whip those 'Dagoes'"?
A No, sir; I didn't.
Q How do you account for the fact that he said "both of those
things?
A He is telling a false, sir; that is all I can say. When I
came out of the "barracks I didn't have any occasion to go down there.
Q But you went hack and put your trousers on?
A That is all I had on when I came out In the street.
Q Wasn't that all you needed to go down there?
A I didn't have any clothes.
Q Why didn't you want to go down there?
A I didn't want to.
Q Why didn't you?
A I have ikimething to live for, sir. I don't like to fight.
Q Haven't you ever teen in a fight "before?
A Only my wife, I slapped her once or twice.
Q Why did you slap her?
A Something she was doing wrong.
ft What was she doing wrong?
A Jealousy.
Q Didn't she have a right to "be Jealous?
A I slapped her.
Q That's the only fight you have ever "been in?
A School fights when I was in school.
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Q But you did "beat your wife?
A I slapped her, that's all.
Q Did you whip her?
A I slapped her.
Q Do you know Wallace Wooden?
A Yes, sir,
Q How long have you known him?
A Since I have teen in the Company.
Q You didn't know him "before that?
A No, sir.
Q But you did know him previous to the night of l^^- August?
A I have been knowing him ever since I "been in the 650th Port
ompany.
Q Did you see him on that night?
A The early part of the night, sir.
Q Where did you see him?
A In the barracks.
Q What was he doing? ■
A I can't recall.
Q What barracks was he in?
A He lives in the same barracks I was.
Q You saw him that night?
A Yes, early in the evening.
Q But you didn't see him before the fight?
A No, sir.
Q Didn't he tell you where he went during the fight?
A I never talked with him, sir.
Q But you did see him during the night of Ik August?
A Yes, the early part of the night.
Q You saw him over there?
A In the beirracks where we lived, sir.
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Further testimony of Pvt. William G.
Jones, taken at Fort Lawton, Washington, on
h October 19hk, by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L.
Williams, IGD.
The witness was reminded that he was still
imdaroath and of his rights as a witness.
Q Last time you were down, William, you told me that you saw
Levert Williams down in the area on the night of August ll»-th.
A I said I heard him talking ahout it.
Q And you heard him say he was down there and hit some Italians?
A Yes.
Q Where was he at the time he was talking?
A In the barracks.
Q In your barracks with you?
A In the hallway.
Q All of you were in the barracks at the time?
A Yes .
Q (Pvt. Levert Willisims entered the room) Jones, do you know
this man?
A Yes.
Q What is his name?
A Levert Williams.
Q On the night of l^)- August did you see Levert Williams?
A Yes, I saw him in the barracks.
Q What was he doing?
A Talking.
Q What was he saying when you heard him talking?
A Talking about the fight.
Q What did he say about the fight?
A He said he was down there.
Q Where did he say he did down there?
A He said he hit some of the Italians.
i*
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Q, Did he say vhat he hit them with?
A His fiats.
Q Did he say anything else he used on them?
A Nothing. •
Q Did he say how many he hit?
A He didn't say.
Q Now, Levert, you heard the testimony of William G. Jones
concerning the night of ik August. What do you say to that?
BY LEVEET WILLIAMS: I say he is lying, sir.
(FVT. Levert Williams was excused)
Q Did you hear Wallace Wooden talk about it?
A No, sir.
Q You saw him down there thovigh?
A I didn't see him no time all during the day.?
Q Now, Hones, xv-hen we talked the last time you also told me you
went down in hack of mess hall 700 ajcid threw some coal against the "building
and while there Robert Greshum was there and some Italian ran out of the
building and Gteshum and some MP chased him but they didn't catch him.
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, how about Walton. Did you see him down toward the
Italian area?
A Walton was in our barracks over there.
Q
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he did?
A
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the stick.
That was after the fight was over?
Yes, sir.
And he was talking?
Yes, sir.
And he was saying he had been down there and telling what
Yes, sir.
What did he say he did down there?
He said he went in the barracks and hit some of them with
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Q And vhat else?
A That's all.
Q He Just said he vent in one of the Italian "barracks andMt
the Italians that were in that barracks?
A Yes .
Q Did he say he used a knife on them?
AQ No, sir.
Q Did he say anything about driving the Jeep into the tent?
A Ho, sir.
Q Nov, Willie Basden. ¥here did you see Willie that night?
A I didn't see Willie Basden.
Q Who else was it, now, that you saw and recognized down in
the area?
A Frank Hughes.
Q And Frank told you what he had done?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you saw what he did?
A I seen when he hit one of them with a club .
Q That was near barracks 709?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you see this big boy, Eobert Mathis?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see Herman Johnson?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see a B. F. Foster?
A No, sir.
Q Now, who else did you see down there?
A I heard Richard Barber and Eobert Sanders talking about driving
the Jeep.
Q And who else?
A And Luther Larkin.
Q Who else?
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(VOLLIAM G JONIS)
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A Hurks.
Q Sgt. Hurks?
A Yes, air.
Q And Luther and Hurks vere telling what they vere doing?
A Yes J sir.
Q And you saw them down there, too?
A Yes, they were going down.
Q And Hurks and Larkin were leading the first hunch down?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Larkin was the one that "blew the whistle?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Hurks was the one that came down from the 600 building
and Joined Larkin near 700 and the two led the first group down?
A Yes, sir.
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And they got the clubs before they left?
I don't know where they got them.
Who else?
Ro^ Daymond
I seen him when he came out.
And Eoy had a club as he left the area?
He had a stick.
Who else did you see?
Lee Taylor.
And Lee Taylor, did he have a stick when he was leaving
the area?
A No, he didn't have anything.
Q And you saw him leaving the area? ^
A He didn't have anything.
Q Did you talk to Lee about it?
A No, I saw him in the barracks talking.
Q V/ho else did you see?
A That's all.
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(WILLIAM G JONES)
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Q Who else?
A I heard Henry Jupiter talking,
Q What was he saying?
A He said he threw some rocks.
Q Did he say what "building he threw the rocks through?
A Ko, sir.
Q You Just went down inside "building 708?
A Yes, sir.
Q In "between "building 708 and 709?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you do down there?
A Trying to see through the window.
Q Could yousee through it? '
A Uo, sir.
Q Was there anyone in the "building?
A I don't know, sir.
Q
A
the door.
Weren't there some Italians in there?
It sounded like Italians in there pulling "beds up against
Q Were there any colored soldiers hitting them at the time?
A Wo, sir; the MP's got there.
Q After the MP's got there, the testimony shows that Herman Johnson
and Willie Curry and a "bunch of "boys went in and "beat those "boys up.
A I came down and saw a "bunch of "boys there and a ■b\mch of MP's
came down.
./
Q Who were the "boys?
A I was on this side of the mess hall, I don't know who they were.
Q Wasn't one of them Herman Johnson? He's that "big fellow. He
had a flash^-ight.
A I didn't see any"body with a flashlight.
Q Didn't the MP's hand him a flashlight?
A I don't Imow.
CDNFIDENTIAL
A. -J U J
(WILLIAM G JOHES)
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Q How about Murphy? ■:'
A I don't know him.
Q Do you know Willie Curry?
A No, sir.
Q What were they doing in the "building?
A They went around to the "back of the building.
Q What were they doing?
A I don't know whether they went in or not. The light went out.
Q How many of them were hanging around there?
A About ten — five or ten.
Q Did they push the door open?
A I don't know. I ran down here and looked in the window.
Q The colored soldiers were trying to get in when you were there?
A I don't know whether they were or not. They was pushing beds
against the door.
Q You saw the colored soldiers trying to get in there?
A They ran around the back. I don't know whether they went in,
Q Weren't they trying to get the Italiaons out?
A I don't know.
Q Weren't some of them thrown through the windows?
A I don't know.
Q Well, you cotild surely see those boys that were runlng aronad
the building?
A I saw them when they came down the road .
Q Who were they?
A I don't know who they were.
Q Now, where did you go when you left there?
A I went back.
Q Where did you go?
A The MP told me to go out of the area.
Q Where did you see Ceaser?
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(WILLIAM G JONES)
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A I didn't see Cesser that day at all.
Q Well, he saw you.
A I didn't see him.
Q Did you see Clark?
A I saw Clark when they "brought him out.
Q Where were you when they hrought him out?
A Standing right there.
Q Well, that was when the fight first started.
A I know it.
Q How did you know it was Clark?
A A hoy told me it was Clark. I hollered and asked.
Q Who was carrying Clark out?
A Rohert Sanders.
Q Did you see him take Snow out?
A No, sir.
Q Where was Clark then when he was hit?
A I don't kaow.
Q How, Jones, I want to get the story straight. Is that as far
as you went in the Italian area?
A That is all I done.
Q Is that as far as you went?
A That is as far as I went.
Q That's all, Jones, •"
CDNFIDENTIAL
(WILLIAM G JOHES)(SB»)
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Further testimony of Sgt. Eegls Callahan,
taken at Fort Lavton, Washington, on 5 October
19^4, by Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williams, IGD.
The witness was reminded that he was still
under oath and of his rights as a witness.
Q On the night of l^l- August, immediately after the fight was
over, were you in the Italian orderly room when a dog tag or identification
tag was found on the floor of that build ing?
A I was .
Q In what room were you when you first saw the dog tag?
A It was in the large office room.
Q Room X? . . ; : .
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see the dog tag picked up off the floor?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q And it was immediately handed to you was it?
A That is right.
Q Did you look at the name on the dog tag when it was handed
to you?
A I did, but I can't recall what it was.
Q Did you then keep in your possession that dog tag during
that night? '*'
A No, I gave it to Major Orem.
Q And previous to your delivering it to Major Orem did you note
the name that was on that dog tag?
A I remember — I looked at it to find out if it was one of
my men.
Q
A
Did you ascertain the name that was on it? --
Yes, I read the name.
Q And was that name John L. Hamilton?
A I don't know about that.
Q But that is the only dog tag that you delivered to Major Orem?
A That is correct.
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Q Where did you deliver the dog tag to Major Orem?
A In the orderly room.
Q That same night?
A Yes, sir. ■.,■'••
Q When you left the orderly room, Sgt. Callahan, I "believe you
went up toward "building 708?
A When I first came down to the riot here?
Q Yes.
A I didn't go to the orderly room the first time.
Q Were you in the vicinity of "building 708 during the fighting?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when you arrived at "building 708 what did you find going
on in front of that "building?
A It all depends which is the ftont or the rear.
Q I will put it this way: When you arrived at "building 708
what did you find going on at that "building at the, end nearest "building
710?
A I found a large group of colored men attempting to "breaJc down
the door of the "barracks .
Q What did you do?
A Well, I drew my revolver emd drew them off from the immediate
vicinity of the "barracks.
Q Didn't you have an MP on guard at that "building previous
to yoiir arrival there?
A Ho, sir.
Q Wasn't there an MP present, other than yourself, when you
arrived there?
A No, sir. ^
Q
there?
A
Did you see an MP come up to that "building after your" arrival
Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know that man's name?
A Yes, air. Pvt. Jack Black, 39710582, Attached Unassigned to
the Security Detachment.
CDNFIDENTIAL
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Testimony of PH. Eobert Smith, taken at
Fort Lawton, Washington, on 5 October I9J1U, by
Lieut. Colonel Curtis L. Williama, IG-L.
The witness was sworn.
Q State your full name, grade, serial number, organization,
and station.
A Eobert Smith, Pvt., 5^797635^ 650th Port Company, Fort
Lawton, Washington.
Q Are you familiar with your rights as a witness under the
2Hh Article of War?
A Well, to tell the truth --
Q I will explain it to you. (The QHh Article of War was read
and explained to the witness) . Do you understand that?
A Yes, sir.
Q On the night of Ik Avigust 19^^ were you present down in the
area 7OO when there was a fight between the colored soldiers and the
Italians?
A I was present in my barracks .
Q What is the number of the barracks?
A It is Headquarters, but I don't know the number. I haven't
been in the Compajiy long.
Q 672?
A Yes.
Q You were north of that building.
^ Like you walk in the door here, I was in the 2d bed.
Q That is building 668?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were you doing when you first heard about the fight?
A Sleeping. I was in the bed with a Jug to my side and a towel
wrapped aroimd it.
Q Were you sick at that time?
A Yes, sir; Just like I am now.
Q Whatwas the first thing that you heard about the fight that
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(ROBEET SMITH)
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caused you to know there was a fight going on?
A There was some hoys in the place there. Some were in the
door and some were in the front. They were making a hunch of fuss and
making a whole lot of fuss.
Q Did you hear a whistle "blown there?
A Ko, sir.
Q Did you hear some of the hoys talking?
A Well, some of the hoys were talking right in front of the door.
Q What did they say?
A I said why so much a fuss going on around here and he said
the First Sergeant come to the front door and said the 65l8t hoys don't
go down there, the 650th hoys are fighting.
Q Did he say who they were fighting with?
A No, he didn't.
Q Did you see any of the hoys in your harracks leave and go
down to the area?
A No, I didn't pay no attention. I continued to stay in hed .
I come to the door, I couldn't get out the door, the hoys were standing
in a crowd all in thedoor.
Q After you heard this noise then and saw these hoys assembled
out in the harracks you went in and got in hed?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you got in hed you could hear all this noise going on?
A Well, I don'tknow. I didn't pay any attention to it.
Q Could you hear the window panes heing hroken?
A No, sir.
Q Could you hear hollering?
A Well, the hoys in front of the place.
Q After the fight was over, wasn't there a hunch of the hoys
came hack to the harracks and talked ahout the fight?
A Well, after the fight was over, I was asleep, hut one or
two days -- the next day — the Captain calls us in the tent area dnd
he told us "Well, there was a fight last night" ^^ that's Just the
way he spoke --we was all circled around. Over Camp Johnson I heeird
the hoys talking.
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Q Who did you hear talking over there? '
A Well, I can't hardly know their names hecauae I just come in,
Q Whatvere they saying?
A They said, "We was down there fighting with clubs and things",
I said, "That's wrong."
Q Who was it that said that?
A Well, let me see. Kow, as far as I can get it the names I
couldn't tell you. There was a Mitchell.
Q George Mitchell?
A Yes, I think it was.
Q What did George say abotit it?
A He said he was down there fighting,
to them. There was another hoy — Mathis.
I never pay no attention
Q Eohert Mathis?
A Yes, I think that is his name.
Q What did you hear Mathis say?
A He said he was down there.
Q Did he say what he did?
A No, he never said . He was telling me Just like I cun talking
to you.
Q Who else was he talking to when he was talking atout that?
A I ^st heard a htlnch of toys talking . _
Q But Eohert Mathis did i&j he was down there in the fight?
A I don't know, hut he was prohahly Just talking. I never did
see what was doing there.
Q Who else have you heard talking ahout it since that time?
A I haven't heard nothing since that time.
Q. But you heard Bohert Mathis say he was in the fight?
A There was a hunch. If I took my training with them I could
tell you.
Q You didn't hear Eohert Mathis say he was in the fight?
A I did hear him say he was down there. There was a lot of "boys
talking. It wasn't so many.
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Q Five or six?
A It might have been more than that talking about it.
Q Did you know Eohert Mathis pretty well before the fight?
A No, I just come in the Company.
Q But you knew him well enough to know that he was the man
that was talking down there about the fight?
A He said so.
Q You could identify Robert Mathis?
A Yes .
Q I am talking about Robert Mathis. Did you hear him say that?
A Him and another boy -- an elderly slim boy — they was over
there in the compound area. They never did say what they done.
Q If you would be called as a witness you could testify that
you heard Robert Mathis tell some other boy that he was down in the area?
A Yes, talking in a bunch. Yes, I could say it.
Q Cen yuu describe for us, without seeing him, this person whom
you call Robert Methis?
A Well, he was kind of tall, not so awful heavy.
Q Tall and slender?
A Yes.
Q You know Robert Mathis, do you?
A Yes, I know him when I see him.
Q Is there anything else, whether I mentioned it or not, that
you know about this fight?
A Well, no more than I wish the other boys names that was talking.
The boys what know I wasn't there, they have gone with the Company.
Now, that is Freddie Perry, I was stamping clothes when I got to bed .
Joe cut my hair and I gave him a one dollar bill and he give me fifty
cents back. I said, "I am going to bed now." Joe Scott and me went
to bed at the same time -- "big Joe Scott.
Q Do you know Herman Johnson?
A Well, I stayed in the same barracks with him,
Q He wasn't in there that night was he?
A I didn't pay no attention to him.
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(ROBERT SMITH)
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Did you hear him come "back in after the fight was over?
I didn't pay any attention to him.
Did you ever hear him say anything about "being in the fight?
No, sir; I never heard him say anything ahout it.
Do you know Wallace Wooden?
No, sir.
All right. Thank you, Rohert.
(ROBERT SMITH) (Em))
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Did you hear him come "back in after the fight was over?
I didn't pay any attention to him.
Did you ever hear him say anything about "being in the fight?
No, sir; I never heard him say anything ahout it.
Do you know Wallace Wooden?
No, sir.
All right. Thank you, Rohert.
(ROBERT SMITH) (Em))
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