EVIDENCE
ON
THE STATE OF IRELAND.
THE
E V I D E N C
TAKEN BEFORE
THE SELECT COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSES OF
LORDS AND COMMONS,
APPOINTED
I
IN THE SESSIONS OF 1824 AND 1825,
TO INQUIRE INTO
THE STATE OF IRELAND,
LONDON:
JOHN MURRAY, ALBEMARLE-STREET,
MDCCCXXV.
LONDON:
Printed by WILLIAM CLOWES,
Northumberland court.
ADVERTISEMENT.
EACH question and answer in this volume is the
same, word for word, as in the original Reports ;
and no part of the evidence of a witness has been
omitted without the cause of the omission being
stated in a note.
CONTENTS.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Page
Mr. John Dunn ...... . . 1
The Rev. Michael Collins 47
Anthony F. Blake, Esq 1 17
Daniel O'Connell, Esq 141 — 246
Richard Sheil, Esq 207
Hugh O'Connor, Esq ; . 292
LordKilleen 300
The Right Rev. Dr. Doyle 316
The Most Rev. Dr. Curtis . . . . . .406
The Most Rev. Dr. Murray . . ... 407
The Most Rev. Dr. Kelly 425
The Right Rev, Dr. Magaurin , 479
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Anthony F. Blake, Esq. . . . . . .501
Daniel O'Connell, Esq 515
The Right Rev, Dr, Doyle 550
JUL U13/0
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Veneris, 4° die Junii, 1824.
THE RIGHT HON. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON,
IN THE CHAIR.
Mr. John Dunn called in ; and Examined.
WHERE do you reside ?— At Ballynakill, in the Queen's
County.
How far is that from the county of Kilkenny ? — About a
quarter of an Irish mile.
How far from the barony of Galmoy ? — Eight or nine miles.
You are a Roman Catholic ? — I am.
You have lately acted as a commissioner under the new
Tithe Act ?— I have.
For what parishes ? — For the parish of Stradbally, the
parish of Timahoe and Fossey, and the parish of Ballynakill.
Are there a considerable number of Protestants parishioners
in the parish of Stradbally? — There are.
Have you acted as secretary to the meetings of the Ca-
tholics of Queen's County? — I have acted as secretary very often.
Do you rent much land ? — I do, some hundred acres.
You are acquainted with the feelings generally of the lower
orders of the people, particularly Catholics ? — Yes, I am*.
Is there any feeling of dissatisfaction amongst them on
account of their condition, with regard to the state of the
laws ? — Very great.
Do they feel any practical inconvenience from the laws as
they exist, as bearing upon their own class ? — Unquestionably
they do.
* Some pages of Mr. Dunn's Evidence are here omitted. They relate to the
disturbances and the collection of tithes ; which subjects have now ceased to be
of the great interest they were last year, in consequence of the suppression of
the Insurrection and the general operation of the New Tithe Act. The evidence
taken by the Committee is so voluminous, that some omissions are absolutely un-
avoidable : but, as it is the intention of this Work to give the evidence that
principally bears on the Catholic Question, no omissions of this evidence will
be made ,• and, whatever has been said against the Question will be introduced
into the text, as well as what has been said in favour of it, with the strictest im-
partiality. The evidence bearing on other distinct subjects, will hereafter be
selected and published, if a work of this sort seems to be required by the Public.
2 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Do you find that they are acquainted generally with their
political circumstances ?— Generally speaking, they are very
sensible that they are debarred the privileges the rest of His
Majesty's subjects enjoy.
From what privileges do you consider that the lower orders
are debarred ?— They feel, in common with all the other
Catholic people, that they have no chance of getting forward
in the state ; and instances occur very often to satisfy them,
that if they had the same privileges as the other classes of
His Majesty's subjects, they would have similar chances of
promoting their objects in life.
Has any instance occurred in your neighbourhood, in which
a Protestant of the lower class has advanced in life? — I think
a very singular one ; a farmer's son, of rather the lower class,
some few years back, went to Dublin, and got a clerkship in
a house of business, was a well-conducted young man, got
married, and into the corporation ; from his being a Pro-
testant he had the honour to fill the office of high sheriff of
the city of Dublin, a very short time back, and is now a
knight ; there is not a Roman Catholic around the neigh-
bourhood that is not sensible that no such chance for any of
them exists.
Is this occurrence matter of conversation amongst them ? —
Do you find, from your communication with them, they are
well acquainted with the laws that bear upon them ? — I find
by conversation with them, that they are fully sensible that
they have not equal privileges with their other fellow-
subjects.
Could you mention any instances in which they display
their feelings, either on public occasions or elsewhere? —
The instances are so numerous, it is hard to particularize
any ; in all their conversations they will express their con-
viction, that there are not the same chances for them as for
the rest of His Majesty's subjects ; they will mention instances
of such and such persons having fortunately got on in the
world from their being Protestants.
Do you mean this representation to extend to the lowest
orders of peasantry ?—I mean to apply it to all classes of
Catholics in Ireland.
To those residing in the poorest cabins ?— To all classes,
generally speaking.
Do you think they occupy themselves in conversing upon
those matters ?— I believe they do.
Do they take a great interest in all public events that relate
to them ?— Yes.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 3
In the temper of mind which you have described, would
they not be disposed very often to attribute the rise of any
body who was a Protestant, to that circumstance, and to
imagine that they were excluded from rising in the same
way with him, when in point of fact they were not, when his
rising1 had nothing- whatever to do with his being a Pro-
testant ? — That may occur ; but they are fuHy sensible that
there is no chance for them under the existing laws.
But still the chance might be for them, as well as for a
Protestant ? — They are aware that they could not have a
chance under the existing laws.
Do you think that this sensibility to this disqualification
extends over all the Catholic peasantry of Ireland ? — Generally
speaking, I think it does, according to the best information I
have.
Has it been a matter of consideration with you, whether or
not it does extend to all ? — It has been a matter of consi-
deration with me ; the result of all that I know on the subject
is, to believe they take a lively interest in all their affairs.
Is that an opinion you have formed from your own observa-
tion, as well as from your different friends that are acquainted
with their feelings ? — It is.
They would feel and value very highly, whatever went to
adjust and assimilate the laws, so as to put all parties and
sects upon an equal footing ? — They would.
Will you describe to the Committee in what way such a
measure would have, a practical operation ? — I think it would
tend in a great measure to compose the minds of the whole
of the people. I am not prepared to say that it would exclu-
sively be a measure that would restore every thing to what is
most desirable, but it would, I think, go a great way in
doing so.
Would it not contribute to make the upper orders of Ca-
tholics satisfied, and to lead them to bring their influence to
bear in contributing to make the lower orders more con-
tented ? — Certainly it would.
Would it not have a considerable influence upon each class
of Catholics, such for instance, as the Catholic bar, the Ca-
tholic gentry, the Catholic farmers ? — I think it would.
Would not rendering the Catholic farmers contented, with
regard to their political condition, have a considerable effect
in enabling them to lead the lower orders into more regular
habits of obedience to the laws ? — I think it would have a
decided effect in making" them exceedingly more anxious, of
course, to see that the lower classes should be as obedient as
they could make them to the laws.
B 2
4 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Do you think that the measures that have been adopted for
putting down disturbances have been successful in establishing
permanently a better disposition on the part of the people ?
I am afraid not.
Have you any acquaintance with the disturbed districts ?-
Yes.
Have you been in them lately ?— Immediately prior to my
coming over. .
Do those measures produce any soreness of feeling upon
the people ? — It produces soreness, because the class of men,
that I really believe has nothing to do with the disturbance, I
mean the actual occupiers of the land, is made to pay the ex-
pense attending upon it.
Do those measures produce more than a temporary effect
upon the lower orders, with respect to the peace of the
country ? — I can only speak my opinion as to that ; I am
afraid they only produce a temporary effect ; while the power
is over them, it keeps them tranquil.
Can you state to the Committee, whether the prophecies
that have been circulated of Pastorini have produced any
effect in the country with which you are acquainted? — The
people laugh at them ; nothing beyond that. The pastoral
address of the Roman Catholic bishop of the diocese lately
disabused them of any idea that they might havehad of their
truth.
What has been the opinion entertained with regard to the
miracles in your country ? — I think it has caused among the
people a profound veneration for the Deity, to whom alone
they attribute the working of miracles, not to men.
They believe that those miracles have been performed ? —
There is a general belief, that, in certain cases, people have
been restored.
You believe that those miracles have been generally be-
lieved amongst the Roman Catholics in that part of Ireland :
— They have.
The miracles of Prince Hohenlohe ? — They do not consider
them the miracles of Prince Hohenlohe or any man.
You stated, that the effect produced by the belief of those
miracles, has been to give the people a more profound reve-
rence for the Supreme Being ; is that the only impression
you believe it has produced ? — I do not know of any other ;
it makes them more attached to the discharge of their reli-
gious duties.
Are not you apprehensive of this, that a particular inter-
position of Providence, a miraculous interposition of Provi-
dence, being believed by the lower class of people to have
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 5
taken place at this particular time, may be attributed by
them to causes which connect themselves with the present
disturbances and the present state of society in Ireland ? — I
do believe it has not had that effect in my quarter of the
country ; I do believe it has not.
If you could put yourself for a moment in the situation of
an uninformed and ignorant peasant; do not you believe
there have been attempts made of late to excite those people
to fresh acts of disturbance ? — I have great apprehension that
it has been so ; but I am not able to state that.
Do you not believe, that whatever may have been the ori-
ginal causes, that religious motives have been introduced ? — I
do believe not in either the county Kilkenny or the Qaeen's
County ; I never could find that religion had any thing to do
with the disturbances.
Not even in the progress of it ?— No.
Do you not believe, that persons engaged in those distur-
bances have been almost exclusively Roman Catholics ? — I
believe they have ; I believe, the body of the people being
Roman Catholics, that those persons are of that communion.
Do you not believe, that almost necessarily when those dis-
turbances, from whatever cause, had been once produced,
that religious motives must intermingle in their views ? —
With respect to what happened to Mr. Marum, who was a
Catholic, I do believe the death of that man was accelerated
by his interference in taking the lands of the Mr. Steeles',
who were of the established religion ; and with that impres-
sion on my mind, I cannot think that religion had any thing
whatever to do with that disturbance.
Do not you believe the object of circulating the prophecies
of Pastorini was to induce the people to expect some distur-
bance in 1825 ? — I do not know how to form an opinion ; I
never knew any person of the least respectability who lent
any assistance in circulating them, but on the contrary, they
treated them with ridicule.
Do not you believe, that the persons who circulate those
prophecies have some object in doing it ? — I believe they must
have some object.
Do not you believe, that that object was to assist the dis-
turbances that were expected to take place ? — I cannot form
an opinion.
Do you believe it was without any object? — I cannot sup-
pose but there must be some object.
Has it never come to your mind to ask why those Pastorini's
prophecies have been circulated ? — I have constantly put the
uestion to myself, and within the whole routine of my
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
district I never could find that those prophecies had any ex-
istence.
Do you not believe there is reason to apprehend that those
prophecies have been circulated? — I have no reason to believe
that they would be extensively circulated.
Nor any apprehension that they would ? — I had some ap-
prehension.
to what do you attribute the Roman Catholic bishops hav-
ing thought it necessary to address their flocks with regard to
those prophecies? — I must attribute it to their having know-
ledge that the works were circulated to excite bad blood in the
people ; 1 must attribute it to that.
Do you think that those were false apprehensions on their
part, or do you think they were well founded ? — I do believe,
in the county of Kildare, they were well founded.
Why do you suppose that particularly in the county of Kil-
dare, which was one of many disturbed districts., those prophe-
cies have had that effect ? — It was there that I found the pas-
toral address of the bishop, taking notice of those prophecies,
had been addressed.
The Roman Catholic clergy were so apprehensive that those
prophecies of Pastorini might have increased the disturbance
in the county of Kildare, that they addressed to them the pas-
toral letter ; and you think yourself, that they must have sup-
posed that the people in the county of Kildare were affected
by those prophecies ; then on what rational ground can you
state, that the people in the county of Kildare should be
affected by those prophecies, and the lower classes in the other
parts of Ireland should not be affected by them ? — Because I
have been repeatedly informed, that in the county of Kildare,
what is called ribbonism, had found its way there; but I
cannot discover that in other parts of Ireland it had prevailed.
It was an association that, I understood, bound themselves by
an oath. Whenever the system of orangeism sets up, the
other begins ; and when once they begin, no one can say where
they end.
If in anyparts of Ireland Pastorini's prophecies have at all con-
nected themselves with the disturbances, do not you think that
the belief of a particular interposition of Providence by miracles
to have taken place in the Roman Catholic church at the same
time might have operated to augment those disturbances, and
to induce the people to give credit to the prophecies, and to
think that something particular was about to take place at
this particular time ?— If the Roman Catholic church, or any
minister of that church, were to preach to the people, that
those prophecies were valuable, that might be so ; but when
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 7
I find them treat those prophecies with ridicule and contempt,
I cannot believe that that is the case.
For instance, in the county of Kildare, where you think the
Roman Catholic people were affected by those prophecies ; do
not you think, that upon the minds of persons so circum-
stanced, the belief that miracles were working at this day in
the Roman Catholic church would operate very much to
augment the effect produced by Pastorini's prophecies ? — If
Pastorini's prophecies were at all sanctioned by the authorities
of the Roman Catholic church, it would be so ; but when I
find them treated with disrespect, I cannot believe so.
Do you believe, that in the disturbed districts of Kilkenny,
the people give credit to those prophecies, or do not ? — I do
believe the body of the people do not give credit to those
prophecies.
Do you think they believe that the present church establish-
ment is likely to be permanent ? — That is a question very hard
for me to answer ; from all the knowledge I have of the feel-
ing of the people, I have no reason to suppose that they have
any expectation of the present church establishment being
in any respect invaded or disturbed.
Do you mean to extend that answer to the disturbed dis-
tricts in Cork, Limerick, and Kerry ? — I am not informed but
by the public reports, of what may be the condition of Cork,
Limerick, and Kerry.
Do you mean to express an opinion that ribbonism exists
in general only in those districts, where orangeism had pre-
ceded it ? — Yes.
You do not mean to make that observation general ?— I con-
fine myself to those parts of the country with which I am ac-
quainted.
The Committee understand from you that there is no rib-
bonism in Kilkenny ? — I do not believe there is.
There is no orangeism in Kilkenny ? — Very little.
Is there in Kildare ? — I cannot have a knowledge of it.
In the Queen's County ? — I cannot have a knowledge of it.
The Committee understand from you, that you thought
there was ribbonism in Kildare ?— I stated the reason- upon
which I formed that belief.
Have you any knowledge that there was orangeism in Kil-
dare ? — Unless by public report.
Can you have knowledge upon the subject ? — I cannot.
Then do you or do you not attribute ribbonism in Kildare,
to there having been orangeism ? — My reason is, that where-
ever orangeism raises itself to a certain height, there I believe
associations of ribbonism find their way immediately.
8 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Did you ever hear as to ribbonism having been very exten-
sive in the province of Connaught?— I heard it was so.
Do you believe that orangeism had been known or did exist
in the province of Connaught at all, before the ribbonism?—
I 3o believe it did exist both preceding and subsequently.
Is the Committee to understand that you consider the pre-
valence of ribbonism in the province of Connaught to which
you referred, as attributable to the antecedent existence of
orangeism in the same part ? — I am not at all acquainted with
the province of Connaught, so as to enable rne to speak dis-
tinctly upon that subject.
Have you ever heard that orangeism did exist in any and
what part of the province of Connaught, antecedent to that
system of ribbonism ?— I do not know when either the orange
or the ribbon system commenced in the province of Con-
naught ; I am a long way from it, and have very little inter-
course with it.
Will you specify any part of the province of Connaught, in
which you conceive orangeism to flourish or even to exist ? —
I have already stated, that I am very little acquainted with it ;
I have only the report that I may take up from the public
press on that subject.
Will you specify, amongst those parts of the country of
which you have been hitherto speaking, any one spot in which
orangeism had existed, and in which you conceive it has occa-
— ^ sioned the existence of ribbonism ? — Orangeism did exist, to a
considerable extent, at Mountmelick, in the Queen's County,
and at Mountrath.
But not in Kilkenny ?— I do not think it has got much in the
county of Kilkenny ; there is a report that orange business is
going on in the city of Kilkenny, and in other small towns.
Will you mention, whether Mountmelick and Mountrath
are the seats of any of the disturbances, of which you have
hitherto spoken in your examination ? — Mountmelick and
Mountrath have been almost'the scenes of annual disturbance
in the Queen's County.
You have been speaking to day of certain disturbances ; have
Mountmelick and Mountrath been the scenes of any of those
disturbances ? — Of those particular disturbances I do not say
they have, they have been the seats of annual disturbance.
Have there not, for several years past, annually been dis-
turbances, and sometimes sanguinary disturbances at Mount-
melick, and sometimes at Mountrath ? — There have.
Were not those upon particular days in the year ? — They
happened upon particular days.
Will you mention the days ?— The twelfth of July is gene-
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
rally the celebrated day upon which those occurrences take
place.
Is the Committee to understand, that the ribbon system pre-
vailed generally throughout the year, in those places ?— No ;
because I have already stated, that from all the information I
have been able to collect, the ribbon system has got into nei-
ther the county of Kilkenny, nor the Queen's County.
Then, is the Committee to collect from your evidence, that
in reference to the district of which you have been speaking,
you think the orange system has got into Mountmelick and
Mountrath only, and the ribbon system into no part ? — I think
orangeism has got into almost every town in the Queen's
County, but those places are the grand depot of them.
But that the ribbon system has not got into any part of the dis-
trict of which you have been speaking ? — Not to my knowledge.
You have stated, that there was ribbonism in the county of
Kildare, and that you derive that opinion from the titular
bishop of Kildare's pastoral address ; how did you derive that
opinion ; from that address, from the general reasoning of it,
or from its positive assertion ? — From his general reasoning1,
and from his cautioning the people against entering into such
a dreadful society. I heard that they committed outrages, by
impeding the canal boats ; and dreading that the outrages
would lead possibly to the production of that system, he felt
it his duty to caution them against it.
He cautioned them not to enter into any such society ?— He
cautioned them against the evil of it, and he cautioned them
not to enter into such association, or any thing that would make
them riot ; and, generally, to be obedient to the laws.- Wwa*
Does that state, that he has any reason to expect they had
entered into such associations ?— -I am not aware that he has
stated that he had any reason.
Will you state to the Committee, in what instances, and in
what places, to your knowledge, ribbonism has followed the
establishment of orange lodges? — To my knowledge in no case;
I cannot speak of my own knowledge.
In what place have you heard that ribbonism has followed
the introduction of orangeism? — In the north of Ireland.
But not in any of the counties with which you are acquainted?
— Not in the places of which I have been speaking.
Is not the disposition to believe in Pastorini's prophecies
alluded to by Bishop Doyle in his address ?— Yes.
Have you any reason to believe that the prophecies of Pas-
toririi have been circulated in the districts of the Queen's
County and county of Kilkenny, with which you are acquainted ?
—No reason whatever ; and I believe they have pot ; I have
10
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED,
taken great pains to ascertain if I could trace them, and I
could not.
You stated in the course of your examination, that it is your
impression, that the body of the people do not believe the pro-
phecies of Pastorini ; upon what grounds is that impression
formed ?— I stated, that I believed that the body of the people
do not believe in the prophecies of Pastorini, and I formed
that opinion from hearing their expression to that effect.
In what county have you heard the body of the people ex-
press themselves to that effect ? — I should not have used the
term " body of the people ;" but those that I carne into con-
tact with in Queen's County and the county of Kilkenny.
Have you conversed pretty generally with the people of those
counties upon the subject of Pastorini's prophecies ? — I have
very often conversed with them, and endeavoured to get at
what their opinions and feelings were, and I have found that
they paid, generally speaking, no attention to them.
Have you found that they are acquainted with them, or that
they are ignorant of them ?— In general the people are igno-
rant of them.
Have you found any people in the course of your conversa-
tions, who have seen and read these prophecies ? — Yes.
About what number? — I do not recollect more than two or
three.
^Of the lower orders?— No, the better class.
Those persons disbelieve them ? — Yes.
Is it your impression that those prophecies have not been in
any degree circulated amongst the common people, in either
the county of Kilkenny or the Queen's County ? — It is my im-
pression that they have not.
What are the grounds of that opinion ? — Having made in-
quiry in every way, I could not find that they had been distri-
buted among them.
How old are the prophecies of Pastorini ?— I hope I shall
not be laughed at for saying I really do not know.
When were those prophecies first made current in Ireland ?
— I do not know.
Is it not within these two or three years ? — I believe not.
The miracles, you say, are generally believed?— Yes.
By respectable Catholics? — Yes.
And the prophecies of Pastorini are not believed by respec-
table Catholics ? — No.
What is the reason of that difference in respect of the mi-
racles and the prophecies ?— People have the evidence of their
'es and their senses of the miracles ; but they do not see how
the prophecies of Pastorini are at all connected with them.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 11
How can people have the evidence of their eyes and their
senses with respect to any prophecy of a future event ? — If
they see them carried into effect, they have both.
If the prophecy relates to a time that is not yet arrived,
how can the evidence of our senses be at all applicable to
such prophecies? — I have already stated my conviction, that
the prophecies are not paid attention to, or believed.
You have already stated that the miracles are believed ? —
But not in consequence of those prophecies.
What is it thai, makes that difference, that the miracles should
receive so much credit, and the prophecies receive so little ?— —
It is not an unusual thing at all, for that all-seeing Being, when
it is His pleasure, to perform miracles ; i'hey are not a novelty ;
it has occurred from the earliest periods downwards.
Are not prophecies also from time to time given by that same
Being ; is there any thing more extraordinary in a true pro-
phecy than there is in a real miracle ? — No, I think not in a
true prophecy.
Can you give any other reason why the miracles should be
treated with so much respect, and the prophecies with so little?
— They are not held as prophecies.
That is the fact; what is the reason of it ? — I am sure I do
not know how I should answer that question ; but that I know
they are not held as prophecies, and the church does not sanc-
tion them.
Has the church given her sanction to the miracles ? — Yes,
I believe so.
The church has not sanctioned the prophecies ? — I never
heard of it.
Do you believe the reason why the miracles have been so
generally received is, that the church have sanctioned them,
and that the prophecies have, on the contrary been rejected,
because they have not the sanction of the church ? — I do believe
that the reason why the miracles are so generally believed in
is, that they are so extremely well authenticated by those who
believe in them, and by respectable members of the church. ^
Do you believe that if Dr. Doyle had published a pastoral
letter in which, instead of treating the prophecies of Pastorini ~£ow*JC%
as contemptible, he had sanctioned them, and given them
credit, that they would have been generally believed in Ireland?
— I believe that they would not, nor the act of any one indivi-
dual, without the concurrence of the whole church.
Have you known any other miracles received in your part
of the country previous to those that have made so much
noise? — Not within my time, but the one in the Queen's
County.
12 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Do you mean the recent one?— I mean the case of Miss
Lawler.
Did you ever know of any miracle previous to that ? — No.
Or in any other part of Ireland ? — No.
Did you know Miss Lawler's family ! — Very well.
Have you conversed with members of that family upon the
subject of that event? — I have.
Are there not parts of the penal laws that are considered
very inconvenient to Catholics, even in respect of their pro-
perty?— Certainly; they are considered very inconvenient in
every respect.
Must not a Catholic, before he is able to purchase land, or
even bequeath it by will, or in short do any thing that gives
him a right over property, take oaths that are called qualifi-
cation oaths ? — I am not aware of that circumstance.
Is the Committee to understand you to say, that, generally
speaking, the Roman Catholics believed in this miracle of
Miss Lawler? — I do believe they did believe in it.
Do you yourself believe in it ? — I do ; I do believe that the
young woman was restored to the perfect use of speech, after
being deprived of it for years ; I know the fact to be so, and
that solely and purely through that great, powerful, and Om-
nipotent Being that performed the miracle ; and that the
prayers of the young woman, the prayers of those that were
acceptable, may have had some effect in producing it, kbut the
act was from God alone.
What instrumentality do you consider Prince Hohenlohe
had in that ? — I do not know of any except the prayers of
people imploring the Father of Mercies to restore the young
woman.
Do you believe that effect could have been accomplished
without the intervention of Prince Hohenlohe ? — Certainly
I do.
That it was not accomplished by any human means ? — No.
With respect to prophecies, although you have not been
able to trace the dispersion of those prophecies in the Queen's
County, have you any reason to believe that they have been
actually dispersed and circulated in other parts of Ireland ?-—
I have not.
-^ In Doctor Tuohy's address, he makes use of these expres-
sions, " I have reason to know, that even under the pretext
of religion, the poor credulous people are led astray by these
wicked advisers, telling them prophecies of wonderful events
to happen in the years 1822, 1823, and 1824;" does not that
refer to Pastorini's prophecies ? — I really do not know ; I
never read them ; I am not aware what prophecies he alludes
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 13
to, it may be Pastorini's, but I have heard of other prophe-
cies being amongst the lower class of people at different times,
that of Columb Kill, and others, seem to have been all now
forgotten for Pastorini. *»
Before you made those inquiries to which you have referred,
among the lower class of people, as to the effect of Pastorini's
prophecies, and the effect of credit to them, did you not take
the trouble of reading the prophecies before you asked those
questions? — I did not.
Is there any levy of money, under the denomination of Ca-
tholic rent, going forward in your neighbourhood ? — I have
not heard that it was in my immediate neighbourhood.
Have you had any opportunity of observing any instances
of its levy? — No.
Do you know of any persons in your neighbourhood being
employed in collecting it at present ? — [ have not heard of any
person in my neighbourhood being employed in collecting it.
How long is it since you left that neighbourhood ? — About
ten days.
Do you expect it to be levied in your neighbourhood ? — I
think it is likely it will.
Can you tell the Committee the nature of that levy ? — I
have only my information from what I read in the public
papers.
You are not a member of the Catholic Association ? — I am ;
not.
You were a member of the Catholic Board ? — I was.
When did that cease to exist? — Some two or three years
back.
When did you cease to attend it ? — I never was a member
of the association.
Were you in the habit of attending the Catholic Board ? —
Yes ; whenever my business carried me to town, I went to the
board.
Will you explain to the Committee what were the objects
of the Catholic Board? — I know of no object whatever, but
to endeavour to procure an equal participation in the benefits
of the British constitution.
In what manner did you become connected with the Catho-
lic Board ? — I went there as residing in the Queen's County,
and the people in the Queen's County voting that I had pos-
sessed their confidence.
Will you describe the nature of that meeting? — The meet-
ing was convened altogether in the county, for the purpose of
addressing petitions to both Houses of Parliament.
Was it by the high sheriff? — No ; a number of respectable
14 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Catholic gentlemen affixed their signatures to a requisition,
calling upon the Catholics of the county to meet for the sole
purposes of preparing petitions to both Houses of Parlia-
ment, praying 4>r a repeal of the penal laws, and in pur-
suance of that the meeting was held.
Do you conceive the present Catholic Association differs in
any and what respect from the Catholic Board ? — I am not a
member of it.
Can you form any opinion as to whether the circulation of
their proceedings in that part of the country, has a beneficial
effect or otherwise upon the public tranquillity of the dis-
trict ? — I do not think it has any effect whatever in disturbing
the tranquillity ; many are of opinion that the proceedings are
not sufficiently temperate, although they attribute nothing
but honourable and pure motives to the principal actors in it ;
still they would be considerably more pleased if there was
more temper, and that is my own decided opinion.
Do you think the circulation of their proceedings contributes
to irritation or otherwise? — I do not think it has any effect.
Have you any reason other than from the public prints, to
enable you to form; a belief whether the Catholic rent is in
progress of collection ? — None whatever ; I have heard one
gentleman say that he had paid, and another that he would
pay a subscription.
Did you hear those gentlemen mention to whom they had
paid it ? — It was some very trifling sum ; I do not recollect to
whom it was paid ; one of them said, he had sent the sub-
scription of one pound or guinea.
To whom? — To the Catholic Association.
Did he send it up to Dublin or to any person in the coun-
try ? — To Dublin, he said he had sent it.
Have you any reason to know whether there is any person
in the country that is authorized to receive subscriptions
there?— I do not.
Was any Catholic rent paid to the Catholic Board, to which
you stated you belonged ?— No ; there was a subscription for
defraying the expense of sending petitions to Parliament.
Is your opinion, respecting the proceedings of the associa-
tion in reference to the temper of them, the opinion of the
generality of Catholics in your county ?— A great many concur
with me in opinion.
Is not that an opinion which prevails very much among the
Catholics in the country parts of Ireland ?— I think it does.
Have you been applied to, to belong to the association ?— -
No.
You have stated the manner in which you became a mem-
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 15
ber of the Catholic Board ; do you know how the Catholic
Association has been formed? — No, unless by public report.
There has been no nomination of a similar nature to that
which was made to the Catholic Board, when you were de-
clared to possess the confidence of the Catholics of your coun-
ty ? — None, that I know of.
Did the persons who said they had paid the rent say, that
they knew for what purposes it was to be applied ? — They
told me that they did know for what purpose it was to be ap-
plied ; that it was to defray the expenses vof presenting peti-
tions, to see that an equal administration of justice, and a
fair representation of the condition of their body, should be
had ; those are the principal things they told me it was for.
Then there were three distinct objects ; one had reference
to presenting petitions, another was to have a pure adminis-
tration of justice, and the third was to see that the public
press should be properly conducted ? — Yes.
And it was not all confined merely to presenting petitions ?
— The persons who subscribed asked me to subscribe, and I
said I should not.
Have there been meetings lately in different counties, for
the purpose of petitioning Parliament upon the Catholic
question ? — I have heard there was.
Have you uot attended any ? — No ; there has not been any
meeting in the Queen's County.
Do you know whether they entered into resolutions at those
meetings ? — -Except from the public papers, I know nothing.
Did you see in the public papers, any resolution which ap-
peared to be an agreement on the part of the meeting with
the association ? — I did.
Have you been in the habit of attending the assizes at Kil-
kenny, or the assizes in the Queen's County, as a juror ? — I
have been always in the habit of attending the assizes at the
Queen's County, not at Kilkenny ; my residence is in the
Queen's County.
Have you frequently acted on juries? — Very frequently.
Both civil and criminal ? — Till the last assizes, I never was
in the criminal court.
Did you find on the jury with you gentlemen of the Roman
Catholic persuasion of your own rank ? — Very rarely.
Did you act with Protestant gentlemen on the jury ? — Con-
stantly.
It it your impression that the conduct of those jurors has
been at all influenced by religious feelings? — It is my opinion,
that the Protestant jurors are as honourable and conscientious
men as can be found any where.
16 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
And you have all co-operated together in the administration
of justice? — Yes.
You never found religious feeling actuate a jury? — Never.
In your own town, do Protestants and Catholics mix; on
what terms do you live in that town ? — I think I may best
describe it, by stating that at my own table you may gene-
rally find the clergy of every communion as often as I can
have them.
That is at the town of Ballynakill? — Yes.
You have no kind of differences or disputes? — None.
Is there an orange lodge at Ballynakiil ? — No ; if there was,
we should soon have disturbances enough.
Are there many Catholics in your rank of life, in that
county ? — There are many about my standing.
Are many of those gentlemen magistrates ? — There is not a
Catholic magistrate in the Queen's County, save one.
Are there many gentlemen in the county, of the middle
class of persons, Catholics, fit to act as petit jurors? — A
great number.
You say, that very few have acted with you on the juries ?
— Very few.
Did that produce any observation among the people ? — Yes ;
a constant subject of conversation amongst them.
How does it happen, that they are not called on the juries ?
I cannot tell that ; I see them in attendance. I believe they
are summoned ; but I rarely see them serve.
Are they summoned ? — They tell me they have been sum-
moned.
Then, as far as the sheriff is concerned, they are sum-
moned in the same manner as their Protestant fellow-sub-
jects?— The practice is, in Ireland, that the bailiff is fur-
nished with summonses to fill up very often, and if the per-
son serving does not give them a certain fee, they will return
them ; if they get a certain fee, they will not return them.
Then, is the Committee to understand, that it is not de-
sired by themselves that they should be summoned ? — Some
of them wish it.
You have no reason to doubt, that the sheriff, in issuing
the summonses, extends them equally to Roman Catholics? —
I would not be understood as making any imputation upon
the sheriff.
The summonses are in blank?— They are often furnished
with blank summonses.
Are those blank summonses signed by the sheriff? — They
would purport to have his signature.
Are the Catholics generally desirous of serving on juries ? —
Mfc. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED, 17
They are ; they like to be mixed, and to be considered as fel-
low citizens.
Do you know whether there are any number of gentlemen
of the Roman Catholic persuasion in the Queen's County,
that from their rank and their intelligence, are fit to be ma-
gistrates ; is there any gentleman of fortune and situation in
the county, resident, who would be qualified to be a magis-
trate ? — There are many gentlemen in the Queen's County of
equal fortune and acquirements with several that are magis-
trates. We have no large Catholic proprietors in the Queen's
County ; but there are many gentlemen that are equally well
entitled to be magistrates with many of those that are in the
commission of the peace.
Have you any Catholic grand jurors in the county? — No.
Do you mean to say, that there is riot one Catholic magis-
trate in the Queen's County ? — I do not know, whether the
residence of Mr. Michael Delaney is in Queen's County. I
believe he is in the commission of the peace in the Queen's
County.
Is Mr. Fitzpatrick, of Urlingford, a magistrate ? — He is
out of the commission of the peace, but he is in the county of
Kilkenny.
Was he in the commission of the peace ? — Yes.
Will you explain to the Committee, how it is that if the
Catholic jurors are summoned equally with the Protestant
jurors by the sheriff, they do not serve equally in civil
cases ? — I cannot pretend to answer that ; I can only state the
facts I know.
Does it arise, in point of fact, from there being a smaller
number of Catholics qualified to be jurors in civil cases than
of Protestants, or does it arise from any other cause? — I can-
not say that there are a smaller number qualified to be jurors
in civil cases ; but my idea of qualification for serving upon a
jury in a civil case is, that every freeholder of 201. or 50/. is
qualified, and I think there are a very great number of both
classes of such persons in the county.
Such persons are returned by the sheriff as qualified ? — I do
not know ; they are registered.
Do you apprehend that any undue means are taken to pre-
vent their serving ? — I would not be considered as casting the
slightest imputation upon the sheriff.
By other persons ? — I do not know any other person that
could do it.
Do not persons frequently endeavour to avoid being jurors ?
—Both Protestants and Catholics very often wish to avoid it.
Is it not very difficult often to procure good jurors ? — I think
c
18
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
not; I rather think we are proverbial for having good juries
on the civil side.
Is it not a matter of difficulty sometimes to procure a suffi-
cient attendance of jurors in civil cases ? — I will not say that
it is a matter of difficulty to procure attendance, but I have
often seen gentlemen in attendance endeavouring to avoid
serving.
And you have seen that on the part of Catholics as well as
Protestants ?— Yes, I have.
You stated, that you thought that all the Catholics, even
the lowest order, take an interest in what is called the Catholic
Question ?— I say that, generally speaking, I believe they do.
Have you ever heard any of the very lowest orders express
anything on that subject ? — Very often ; my own working men
express a great wish that the question were carried, and that
all were alike.
You have heard that from your own labourers ? — Frequently.
Are they acquainted with the particular laws which affect
the Roman Catholic body ? — I think you will find a great deal
more information on that subject than you can expect ; they
are fully sensible that they are not on an equality with other
subjects in many particulars.
They have a general knowledge that they are not placed on
a footing with their fellow subjects? — Yes; I have generally
found, that men of my standing are most anxious to press
upon them not to enter upon the consideration of the question,
but to leave it to us.
But notwithstanding that they will think about it ?— They
will be always inquiring and asking what prospect there is.
Is there much want of employment in the neighbourhood
of your county ? — Very great indeed.
In that district of country which you have before alluded to,
called the colliery country, is there a want of employment
amongst the great population there ? — The want of employ-
ment extends in a great measure there.
What are the wages paid for labour ? — The wages paid in
the quarter of the country I am in is about eight pence a day,
when men are actually employed.
Are many of them employed regularly every day through the
year ? — It is impossible they should be employed every day
through the year, for if there is bad weather they cannot be
employed.
Excepting bad weather? — I believe there is not above one
man out of six that has constant work, I might say one in ten
Are there any that are altogether out of employment ?—
I will not say altogether, because they may occasionally get a
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 19
day's employment, but there are many that have not one day's
work in a week.
How do they manage to live ? — In the most wretched state.
Have they land 1 — No.
How do they find their food ? — Generally from the humanity
of their fellow-creatures of their own class, and those a little
above them in life.
Can you form any idea, taking the whole of the labouring
class in a district, what would be the average earning per day
per man upon the whole year ; taking into account what they
receive for labour, either by money or by land, how much a
day would it make in your opinion? — I have been turning it a
good deal in my mind, and I think they would not make more
than from four pence to five pence per day, one day with ano-
ther ; I mean those that are tolerably well employed ; the
others nothing like it.
What is their general conduct, are they tolerably orderly
people ? — Whenever they get employment, you find them ex-
ceedingly willing and anxious for labour, and at a very mode-
rate compensation, and they are then exceedingly well con-
ducted.
Generally speaking, is their disposition orderly and quiet ?
— Generally speaking it is so, and to the want of employment
I attribute, in a great measure, much of our unhappy state.
Is there a great anxiety on the part of the people to be em-
ployed ? — The greatest possible ; the anxiety of the creatures
to be employed, for any kind of remuneration, is wonderfully
great.
Are they industrious ? — Very industrious indeed, if they can
but get employment.
Have you known of the execution of any works, either public
or private, by task-work ? — It has been a practice I myself
have introduced, upon a pretty extensive scale, and I have
found them eager for it, and to labour incessantly before and
after hours.
Have you known any instances in which it has become ne-
cessary to restrain their exertions in task-work, lest it should
prejudice their health ? — I have known it myself; I have often
had occasion to point out to my labourers, that I had appre-
hension they were labouring too severely, to the prejudice of
their heal'th.
Is the general system, as far as you are acquainted, payment
in money for labour, or payment in account for rent? — The
general system is, for the farmer to let off a small portion of
land, and he puts a rent upon it, and he takes this rent in
labour, giving the balance of any thing that is over the rent
c 2
20 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
to his people. They prefer themselves, getting a little ground
that they may have to cultivate.
Is the execution of the public works under the authority of
the grand jury, generally paid for by money payment, or by
allowances in account ? — I am very apprehensive that persons
employed under the overseers, very often are in the habit of
paying for the labour, by giving articles of food, and matters
of that kind, to the actual labourers ; but very often they are
paid in money too.
Do you conceive it would be a great improvement in the
execution of public works, were all those public works paid
for in actual money? — I think it would.
Does the present system, wherever it exists, of paying for
county works by allowances in account, or by giving articles
of food, ever lead to giving the preference in the execution of
county work to the tenants of the individual who has ob-
tained the works? — 1 am not prepared to say that, to my
knowledge, any preference for county works is given to the
tenants of any individual.
What is the rate of daily wages at which the county works
are performed? — I believe they give ten-pence a day.
And three shillings a horse ? — They procure it on as good
terms as they possibly can have it.
It is ten-pence a day for labour, and three shillings for a
man and horse ? — I believe two shillings and sixpence for a
man and horse.
Is that the usual rate of labour in the Queen's County ? —
It is ; but the public works are executed at a period of the
year when the days are more lengthened, and they give a little
extra on that account.
Under the present system, is not the great press of public
works thrown almost altogether upon a certain period of the
year ; namely, that immediately preceding the assizes? — Yes.
Do you not conceive that more profitable employment would
be afforded to the people, in the execution of public works,
were it possible to distribute more evenly the labour of the
year ? — That system is carried into execution in the Queen's
County to a great extent ; they are endeavouring to manage
public works, so that it shall not fall at any particular period
too heavy. The plan is to set apart a certain number of perches
of road to some respectable gentleman, and he sees that the
repairs are kept up at a certain rate.
Where the contrary system prevails, and the execution of
public works takes place almost entirely just before the assizes,
does not that throw the execution of works in summer to the
time of early harvest, and throw the execution of works in
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 21
winter to the time of planting potatoes, and preparing- for the
spring work ? — It does.
How long has this new system, which you have described,
been acted upon in the Queen's County? — I should suppose
for the last three or four years.
Is that system, which you have been describing, the opera-
tion of that part of the grand jury law which is commonly
called the Supervisor's Act ? — It is.
Are there a great many destitute and infirm persons in that
part of the county in which you live? — There are.
Is there any provision for them ? — None whatever.
Do you think it would be desirable to introduce a system
which should provide for destitute and infirm persons ? — Un-
questionably it would ; it is dreadful to leave the country with-
out it.
Have you not a house of industry in the country? — No.
Do those people that you have alluded to, in general, live
by themselves or with families ? — They live detached, up and
down, by themselves sometimes, when they can have a hut;
and subsisting upon the charity of their poor fellow creatures
for their night's lodging and their meal.
So long as that exists, do you think it is possible to have
habitations in the country which shall be altogether creditable ?
— Certainly, it is impossible.
Are you at all acquainted with the management of the poor
laws in this part of the United Kingdom ? — Very little indeed.
Is there not a very great distinction in the part of the coun-
try with which you are acquainted, in the state of the poor
upon those estates which are well managed, as compared with
the state of the poor upon the estates which are the property
of absentees, or which are not well managed? — The most
striking ; for instance, there is Lord De Vesci ; he is a most
excellent landlord ; there are no poor upon his estate, gene-
rally speaking.
What do you mean by that ? — He is everlastingly doing good
acts to ameliorate their condition.
Does Lord de Vesci possess the entire property in that pa-
rish ?— No.
Is the condition of the people in those parts of the parish
which are not the property of the nobleman you have named,
different from that on his estate ?— Very different indeed.
If there was a parochial and compulsive provision for the
poor in that parish, would not the effect of that be, to tax
the property upon which the lower classes are in the best state,
for the support of those parts in which the poor are in the
worst state ? — Certainly, it would operate in that kind of way.
In the event of any provision being made by law for the
22 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
poor in Ireland, do you not conceive, that on principles of jus-
tice it would be essentially necessary that each townland only
should contribute to the maintenance of its own poor ? — I do
think so.
Do you think it is possible, that the landlords, generally
throughout Ireland, could act as liberally as Lord de Vesci
does; do you think the landed gentry of Ireland, generally,
are so circumstanced, in a pecuniary point of view, as that they
could make the same expenditure for the poor that Lord de
Vesci does? — To a certain extent they could; but it is on the
absentees' estates that the wretchedness exists principally.
Do you think the gentry are in that state, with reference to
their property, that they can afford to be as liberal as Lord de
Vesci ? — I do believe, that generally speaking they are, to a
certain extent.
Are the other proprietors in that parish, in your opinion,
people that are possessed of the same means of doing benefit
to their tenantry as Lord de Vesci ? — I know they are not pos-
sessed of property to the same extent, and they do not in
general act at all like him.
Are they capable of doing so ? — I think they might, in pro-
portion to their means, but they do not.
In the event of the introduction of any system for the relief
of the poor in Ireland, by whom would you propose that the
system should be administered? — I believe the overseers would
be very fit and proper persons.
Are you acquainted with any parishes in Ireland, in which
there are no individuals to whom you could intrust the power
of overseers ?— I am not acquainted with any parish just at
this moment, but I should suppose in every parish some fit
and proper person could be found.
To what districts do you confine that observation? — To dis-
tricts of the Queen's County, that I know, and the county of
Kilkenny.
Do you believe those districts to be above the average in
point of resident gentry, or to be taken as a fair average of
the general state of Ireland ? — I think them above the average.
Have you any doubt but that in many parts of the country
there would be parishes found, in which there would be no in-
dividuals qualified to act? — There may be parishes found so
circumstanced.
Have you any doubt of it?— None ; I think they should be
individuals of very respectable rank.
What is the extent of your parish of Ballynakill ?— In the
parochial book it is returned to me as containing from four to
five thousand acres ; I think it is about six thousand acres.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 23
Do you know the population of it? — It is very dense.
Are you aware that in England every man, who cannot get
employment, has a right to receive a sum of money, sufficient
to enable him to purchase his food, from the parish? — Yes;
I am aware that, generally speaking, each parish is obliged to
sustain them.
Provided he cannot get labour ? — Yes ; I am only aware that
each parish in England, is bound to maintain its own poor.
Does not that mean to provide those people with the means
of living, who cannot earn it by their labour ? — Unquestionably.
Supposing every person in your parish, that could not earn
his livelihood by labour, had an opportunity of going to the
overseer, and receiving from him what should be sufficient to
purchase him the food he requires, have you any idea of the
charge that would make upon the parish? — No ; the numbers
are very great of old, infirm and decrepit.
Suppose that every able-bodied labourer had a right to go,
as well as the old, infirm and decrepit, and receive money to
buy himself food; under those circumstances, would there not
be a very great charge upon the parish? — A very great indeed.
Would not a great part, or almost the whole of the labour-
ing population, apply for relief? — I think not ; if they could
get labour, the Irish are willing to work, and I know many
instances where they are unwilling to expose their distress.
Have you any idea that it is probable that the labouring
people will have the means of getting labour? — I am not
aware of any thing at this moment, for the depressed state of
agriculture is so great, there is no inducement on the part of
the farmer, to embark in any speculations that would give
them employment.
Would not a certainty existing that provision and relief
could be got from the public fund be a new inducement to
early marriages in Ireland ?— I do not think it could ; for I
think the great evil is the early marriages at present ; I think
that any thing like poor laws should be on a very modified scale.
If any circumstances were to occur to check the habit of
early marriages, would not the existence of the poor laws con-
tribute to counteract them ? — If there was a modified plan of
poor laws well regulated, I think they could be so done as that
they could not be available for those purposes ; I do not think
it would accelerate early marriages.
Do you feel certain that you can adopt the principle of poor
law, and by any means limit it in its operation? — Yes, I do
think that possible.,
Do you think that in a season of very great distress, suppo-
sing the law was limited merely to the infirm and decrepit,
24 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
that you could prevent it from being extended to other classes
of the people ?— Certainly, I think I could.
You are aware that there are a great number of Irish la-
bourers come over to this country in the summer? — Yes.
Do you think that those people would come to England for
employment if they could be supported out of the parish rate
at home ? — I think they would, for the reason I have already
assigned ; I find that they are unwilling to be supported by
charity.
You think they would go on coming to England ? — I would
. not leave it in their power to be supported from the parish.
Have any gone from the Queen's County to look for perma-
nent employment in England ? — A good many.
Have any of them been obliged to come back, because they
were not allowed to remain in England ?— A great many came
back, because they were not allowed to remain.
Were they people that were refused relief in England, or
that were prevented from settling by residence, as interfering
with the people of England ? — I understand from a great
number/of them that the labourers of that class of life in Eng-
land, have great jealousy of their coming in amongst them,
and taking their employment from them.
What do you think is the average extent of parishes in your
neighbourhood? — I think about 5000 acres; Stradbally ex-
cepted, which I found contains about 1400.
Do you not think that the establishment of poor laws, how-
ever modified, would greatly aggravate the evil of which
you, in the former part of your evidence, complained ; namely,
the pressure upon the population by parochial charges? — If
the charge of the poor laws were to fall exclusively upon the
occupier of the soil it would bring his ruin immediately.
Must it not necessarily fall upon the occupier, inasmuch as
the landlord, for instance, if he has his ground to let, would
immediately upon the lease being expired, or his getting pos-
session of the ground, raise that charge upon the occupying
tenant, which he would be chargeable with in order to main-
tain these poor laws ? — If it is the wisdom of the legislature
to direct the occupier to pay any charge for any definite object,
that may be received in discharge of his present engagements.
Do you think that Parliament can control the landlord, in
demanding a certain price for the land that he Jets ? — Cer-
tainly not ; but as it is I do not suppose it will interfere with
the property of gentlemen ; but I speak now of the state that
the country is in under demises for years and for lives ; and it
might interfere so as to regulate the proportions to be paid by
the parties.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 25
You stated the average size of parishes may be taken at
about 5000 acres ; what is the average size of the town
lands ? — Town lands vary very much ; I have found some
town lands not to contain 100 acres, and others six or seven
hundred acres.
Are riot the parishes then, almost, too large districts to be
overlooked by overseers appointed by the parish ; would they
not be too large for overseers? — I think not.
Supposing those overseers to be over town lands, are there
not many town lands in which there are many inhabitants in
which there is no person fit for the situation ? — I think there
are town lands, in which there would be no persons applying
for relief.
What is the state of leases generally in your part of Ire-
land ? — Lands are, generally speaking, demised for leases of
three lives or thirty-one years.
Do the persons to whom those leases are granted, generally
occupy the whole of the land so demised? — Many do, and
many do not.
In the cases of those who do not, how do they demise them
again ? — They often set them for one life, or two or three lives,
or a certain number of years.
What does the man who has this lease for one life or num-
ber of years, how does he deal with the land, does he sub-let
it again ? — Sometimes he does ; too often.
Does the person who demises from him ever again sub-let? —
I am sure there are cases of sueh sub-lettings.
What is the greatest number of tenants that you know under
the head landlord ? — Probably they go down to five.
Each of the tenants endeavouring to obtain a profit rent out
of the other, to whom he demises? — Exactly.
What portion of the land in your neighbourhood, do you
think is occupied by the head landlord? — None at all.
What proportion do you think is occupied by the first lessee
without sub-letting ? — Very many occupy the entire, and
several sub-let in the immediate neighbourhood : I myself
occupy all the lands I have got, with the exception of work-
men's gardens.
Do you think that the immediate lessees occupy half the
land in the district with which you are best acquainted ? — •
I think they do at present ; but I think they did not some
three or four years back.
What has caused that difference ?— The distress of agri-
culture has brought down the immediate tenant, and he has
pulled down the person who demised to him ; and a great
number of the middle men are all knocked down,
26 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
So that the person who was formerly an under tenant, now
holds immediately from the head landlord ? — A great many of
them do.
Are those persons possessed of much capital ? — Several of
them have a good deal of capital, and many have not.
Adequate to the management of the tracts they have ?— I
think there are many that have not sufficient for the tracts of
land they have.
What is the size of those holdings generally ? — The farms
vary very much, it extends as low as to a solitary acre ; from
fifty acres down to one.
What is the average size of farms let to the immediate lessee
of the original landlord? — It generally goes from about 50
acres to 250 ; I mean the cultivated low lands.
What description of houses are occupied by the immediate
lessee of the original proprietor? — Very often but very in-
different thatched houses.
Are many of them slated ? — Some of the great proprietors
that live at home build most capital houses for their farmers,
particularly Mr. Cosby ; I have heard Lord Lansdowne also
does so.
Those are slated houses? — Yes; and for his mountain
farmers, comfortable thatched cottages.
Are the houses of the immediate tenants of the original
landlords always repaired by the lessee, or ever by the land-
lord ? — Always by the tenants.
And in the case of a sub-tenant ; are they always repaired
by the sub-tenant? — Always repaired by the tenant in oc-
cupancy.
Generally speaking, are the resident landlords of the county,
and particularly in your immediate neighbourhood, all attend-
ing very much to the comfort of their tenants ? — I think they
are all attending to the interest of their tenants ; but the two
I have mentioned pre-eminjently so.
Sabbati, 5° die Junii, 1824.
LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR.
Mr. John Dunn, again called in ; and Examined.
You stated yesterday, that the holdings vary from about 50
to 250 acres generally f— Yes, I did,
By those holdings, you mean the holdings immediately from
the landlord?— I do.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 27
Supposing a holding of 200 acres is sub-let by the imme-
diate lessee, into how many different parcels does he frequently
divide it? — It varies very much, sometimes it may be let into
five different parts, sometimes double the number, some-
times half.
Supposing a holding of 200 acres is divided into five parcels,
each of 40 acres, will the tenant of those 40 acres be able to
cultivate them by his own family, or must he employ other
labourers ; the question referring to farms generally arable ? —
It often occurs, that they are cultivated by the family of the
master, and very frequently he employs hands to assist.
How many acres do you conceive a family, with the average
number of hands in it, is capable of cultivating? — A family,
comprising the master and four sons capable of labour, and
two daughters, which is a moderate family in Ireland, six in
number, besides the father and mother, I should suppose fully
equal to a farm of from 30 to 40 acres, occasionally having
help in the harvest or hurried times.
In point of fact, how many houses and cabins do you think
there are generally erected upon a holding of 40 or 50 acres
in your neighbourhood ? — In some instances there is not more
than one, and in very many instances there may be five to six
or eight huts for the habitation of the wretched occu-
piers.
How do the inhabitants of those supernumerary cabins em-
ploy themselves? — Generally, for any spare time they may
have from the cultivation of their own farm they endeavour to
procure labour in the immediate neighbourhood.
Is that labour to be had constantly ?— No, very rarely.
How much land do the occupiers of those small cabins
occupy ? — Sometimes, but one acre, sometimes two ; and I
think, scarcely more than five or six acres.
Is the whole of that generally cultivated as potatoe-ground ?
— When they have but one acre it is generally the greater
part under potatoes, and the part they are able to manure the
current year will have a crop upon it the succeeding year,
having corn that year.
How much land do you conceive to be necessary to be
attached to a cabin for a family occupying it for a potato-
garden ? — I should suppose, about three acres would be as
much as they could well manage if they had not a cow.
Generally speaking, the occupants of those holdings have
not a cow ? — They have not.
How do they provide themselves with milk ? — There are
large dairies, generally speaking, pretty much through the
country, and they dispose of their butter-milk, they sell it.
28 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Is it necessary for a man to have three acres to provide his
family with sufficient food ?— No, I think not.
What is the smallest quantity of land a man ought to have,
to provide a common family with their means of subsistence ?
I do not think he could do it at all with less than two acres, if
he has a family of six children, and the father and mother,
because they generally have a pig to feed.
What would he pay commonly an acre for that ? — The rent
varies very much, according to the nature of the soil, gene-
rally the poor creatures are charged very high rents.
What in your neighbourhood is the average rent ? — I should
suppose something about two pounds or guineas an acre.
How does he pay his rent? — Generally by his labour, and
the sale of a pig he endeavours to feed. The pig he looks to
most particularly, as his main prop and support.
How does he feed the pig ? — On the offal of the potatoes ;
the smaller ones that are not fit for his own table are laid
aside for the feeding of the pig ; and the peels and refuse of
that prepared for his family.
This pig is allowed to run about? — He occupies a part of
the dwelling with the poor creatures, and runs about. I have
stated that the usual practice is, that the portion of their
ground which they are able to manure this year for their
potatoe crop, the current year they grow corn upon ; then
they bring it round to potatoes again.
The pig is not shut up to be fattened as in England ? —
No.
Does not a pig get a considerable quantity of his food by
walking about? — Yes.
What quantity of land does this poor man till for corn ? —
The proportion of his garden, I have already stated, which he
is able to manure this year, he puts a corn crop in.
Then one acre of land would produce him sufficient potatoes
for his family, would it not ? — I think that the potato-crop
would not, unless it was a very good year, afford him suffi-
cient for his family ; and that those who have a corn-crop,
must have resource to that.
How many barrels of potatoes would an acre produce ?—
I think about eighty barrels to an acre is about a fair crop ;
they are not able to get manure to produce what other men
might get from it. Those barrels are twenty stone to the
barrel.
Are there not great numbers of people who live without
having this quantity of land ?— A great number indeed.
There are many that have no land at all ?— A great
number.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 29
How do those people live ? — They endeavour to procure
from farmers a portion of ground manured each year, for the
cultivation of the potato-crop, for which they pay very high
rents.
Is that called Conacre? — It is.
What do they pay for it ? — When the land is very well cul-
tivated, and highly-manured, I have known it in my neigh-
bourhood to go so high as ten guineas an acre ; in proportion
to the excellence of the manure, the rent is charged.
How do the people pay for that land ? — They pay by their
labour, if they can get employment ; if not, they must make
out the money ; and we often have great wretchedness with
their little crops, selling by auction for the amount of such
rents so contracted.
Are there many people who live continually on charity ? — >
There are a good many.
At what age do they buy their pig ? — It varies very much ;
some will buy of a very tender age, and keep it to what is
called store ; then it is sold in the public market to a man
who keeps it on some months longer, till it is in condition for
the bacon-house.
Are they able to sell several pigs in a year ? — Many of them
do buy and sell several ; keeping them for a short time.
Is there much land underlet in your neighbourhood ? — Yes,
a large quantity.
Is it not the habit of the wives and families of persons who
underlet lands in this way, to act with great kindness to the
common people ? — Yes ; 1 know numbers of them who have
had certain leases to themselves, take great care of the poor
creatures to whom they have let their land.
Would you say that of the Protestant gentlemen as well as
of Catholics? — Unquestionably, I know no difference; we
know of no distinction. I find them as charitable and humane
as Catholics ; I know no difference.
Practically they are very useful to the lower orders of the
people, living on the lands and in their neighbourhood ? —
Practically I know not what would become of much of
the property of absentees, but for the middlemen ; they are
kind, generally speaking, and good-natured and humane to
their under-tenants ; if they were not, the country would be
much worse off' than it is ; there are many cases of exception,
some very sanguinary men, and very oppressive.
Do you apply that locally to the part of the country from
which you come, or generally? — I have applied all my answers
locally.
Is there much absentee property in your neighbourhood ?— •
30 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
There is a good deal ; but latterly it has been the practice of
one great proprietor to visit Ireland almost every year, and his
tenantry are contented and happy, and reap great advantage
from his lordship's visits ; I refer to my Lord Lansdowne.
In the case of the absentee estates in your own neighbourhood ,
are there generally resident agents upon them ? — I reside on an
absentee's estate ; Lord Stanhope is the proprietor of the
estate on which I reside ; the agent is not resident, but there
cannot be a kinder agent, or better landlord.
Are the agents generally paid by salaries or per centages ? —
The tenant is bound by lease to pay sixpence in the pound re-
ceiver's fees ; and I have heard that the noble proprietor pays a
like sum : I do not know whether that is the case, but as tenant
to Lord Stanhope, I pay sixpence in the pound receiver's fees,
as well as the rent.
Is that a usual mode of paying a receiver ? — I beg to say,
that whenever an absentee does visit his estates in Ireland, the
condition of the poor tenantry is wonderfully bettered by it ;
it is a most desirable thing.
You mentioned yesterday that there were Orange parties at
Mountrath ? — I did.
Has not the landlord of the town of Mountrath, and the
neighbouring country, made an exertion to check the proces-
sions ? — I am most happy to have an opportunity of stating,
that he has not only made exertions but he has completely
succeeded, and has restored to that part of the country, that
was a disgrace to the county, perfect good-will and harmony,
and has altogether removed that dreadful hydra that cursed us
annually; the landlord is Sir Charles Coote, and the whole coun-
try is affectionately devoted to him for having done so.
In what way did he succeed in stopping the practice ? — I
believe him to be the principal proprietor of the town of
Mountrath, and being on the spot, his influence had the natu-
ral effect of putting an end to those shocking scenes we
annually had there.
Has not he given public notice that he would refuse to
renew leases, or grant lands to any person who took a part in
those processions ?— I heard that he made use of every exer-
tion within his reach to put them down and get rid of them,
and he has succeeded.
Was there any resistance made to his wishes ?— Never, that
I am aware of.
The expression of his desire that it should cease was
enough ?— 1 understood that there was some little show of
resistance, but it gave way at once ; Sir Charles, I believe,
was determined, and they found it more prudent to give way.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 31
Have the lodges been broken up, or only the annual display
of meetings discontinued? — I cannot speak positively to that ;
I have heard that the lodges are continued, but there is no
annual display.
Are there Orange lodges at Mountrath ? — I believe there are ;
I have heard so.
Is there much outrage at Mountmelick on account of pro-
cessions ? — Yes ; I have heard, and believe so.
At what time of the year do they take place ?— On the twelfth
of July annually.
Are those disturbances productive of bloodshed ? — In some
places they have been, particularly at Mountrath, lives have
been lost from time to time, and always the lives of Roman
Catholics ; one party are armed, and the other party are not.
There is no Catholic organization of any sort there ? — Not
that I am aware of, and I have taken great pains to be in-
formed upon it.
Has not Doctor Doyle's effort to check the progress of in-
surrection been perfectly successful, in the diocese over which
he is the Catholic bishop ? — I attribute much of our state of
tranquillity, and altogether putting down that insurrectionary
spirit, to his persevering exertions. 4
When it began to show itself in one part of his diocese, how
did he act ? — He met it at once.
Did he do more than publish the address of which the Com-
mittee have heard ? — Yes ; he made a visitation of his diocese,
and publicly from the pulpits exhorted the people, which I
think has had the happiest effect.
Has Doctor Doyle introduced any changes in respect of the
charges of the priests, in his diocese or the stations ? — Very
great.
Of what nature are those changes ? — It was the practice
heretofore, for the Roman Catholic clergyman, when he called
to perform his duties at Easter and Christmas, to dine with
the family whom he relieved from the trouble of going to the
place of worship. Doctor Doyle has prohibited that, and
under no circumstances will allow that his clergy shall stay to
be maintained at the house where they attend for religious
purposes, save for a breakfast or a snack ; they are not allowed
to dine : it was the practice for the Roman Catholic clergy-
man to attend to administer the sacrament, not to give the
family the trouble to go to their places of worship, which are
often at a great distance.
That is the meaning of the word station ? — It is.
They commonly assemble in respectable farmers' houses ?—
Yes.
32 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Were those entertainments attended with expense to the
parties at whose house they took place ?— Certainly, they were
attended with expense.
Is a snack or breakfast, matter of expense ?— Nothing at all
like what the other will be.
The entertainment was a considerable expense, was it not,
to the parties ? — I would say considerable, when compared
with a breakfast or snack, very considerable.
Has he introduced any other changes with respect to his
clergy ? — Yes, he has ; he has prohibited them altogether from
appearing at places of public amusement or resort, or at hunt-
ing parties ; and in all cases where any parish priest has died,
and there was a plurality of livings, he has separated them,
and sent additional clergy to such parishes so divided.
Do you conceive the number of the Catholic clergy, in those
parts of Ireland with which you are acquainted, to be ade-
quate, in point of fact, to the increase of duties which the in-
crease of population has cast upon them ? — I think they are
barely adequate; I think a lesser number would not perform
the duties.
Has Dr. Doyle taken any pains to introduce schools, and
lending libraries among the Catholics ? — In every parish of the
diocese with which I am acquainted he has been most solicit-
ous to have schools introduced, and libraries for the use of the
people.
Have the goodness to state to the Committee what those
libraries are ? — They generally consist of religious tracts.
The Life of Christ is one ; the Death of Abel another.
Is Reeves's History of the Bible one of the books ? — I have
not met with that ; but the works of Dr. England, and the
works of Bishop Challoner I have just seen ; there were books
of that description.
For what purpose are those books placed in those libraries ?
— For the reading and instruction of the children, and the
education of the more advanced people, that have not, in their
early period, been educated ; they are read in chapel prior to
the service on Sundays.
Are those books much read, and has the establishment of
lending libraries given satisfaction? — They are very much
read, and I think the establishment has given great satisfaction.
How are those lending libraries supported ; from what funds ?
— The priest generally endeavours to raise a small fund in the
first instance, and then the person who chooses to borrow any
particular work, pays a small trifling sum for the loan for a
certain period, and on the restoration of the book, when he
takes another, he pays a small sum again ; and when it comes
to a pound, they add to the library again.
ME. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 33
Has the bishop prohibited works of a controversial descrip-
tion ? — I have not seen any books of a controversial description
in their libraries.
Do you know whether the bishop has prohibited them ? — I
believe they are very anxious to put away books of a contro-
versial nature.
Do you know of any arrangement between Catholic and Pro-
testant clergymen, for the establishment of schools ? — In the
town in which I live there is a school, maintained by subscrip-
tion from both classes ; and there are children of both descrip-
tions attending ; we have no other aid.
Is there any arrangement between the clergymen of the two
religions, with respect to the books ? — I know there are some
arrangements, that neither are in the slightest degree inter-
fered with, with respect to their principles ; nor they do not
allow any thing of that description in the school.
You do not know whether there is any common agreement
about the books to be read by the children ? — I do not know
to my own knowledge ; but I take for granted there must be
an arrangement between them.
Are you acquainted with the arrangement made at Mary-
borough ? — I have heard that there was the very best under-
standing between the rector and the Roman Catholic priest,
and that they were likely to get on very well together.
Are the schools you have alluded to, extensively established
in Dr. Doyle's diocese ? — I believe in every parish.
Are they exclusively maintained by Catholics ? — Certainly
not ; the Protestants at Ballynakill subscribe with the Catho-
lics ; and the Protestant children as well as the Roman Catho-
lics attend the school.
Did Dr. Doyle endeavour to prevent imprudent and early
marriages in his diocese ? — I have heard him constantly speak
against the imprudence of early marriages, and regret it,
certainly.
Do you know whether he has ever advised his clergy to dis-
courage them ? — I do not.
How long has the school at Ballynakill been established ? —
Two or three years.
Was it established before Dr. Doyle came into that diocese ?
—No.
Was it by him it was established ?-— By his direction and
order.
The library was established at the same time ? — Certainly.
rHow many volumes do you believe there are in the library ?
I declare I cannot give an answer ; they are lent out, and
34 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
the people exhorted to read ; and as the fund is increased,
they are adding every day to their library.
Is the Bible read in that school ?— I believe not.
Is the Bible one of the volumes that are in the library ? — I
never saw it.
Either the Old or the New Testament ? — I have seen the
Old and New Testament in the possession of many of those
that are at the school, but whether it forms part of their
library,! am not prepared to say.
Do you know whether that school receives any assistance
from the Kildare-street Society ? — I know it does not.
Are there any books of history in the library ? — Yes ; I
think I have heard that the History of the Church is one.
Do you recollect the name of the author of that history ? —
Indeed I do not ; I did not examine it so particularly.
Is there any History of England in the library ? — No ; I never
heard that there was ; it may be there without my knowledge.
Is there any History of Ireland in the library? — No.
Are there any books except religious books in the library?
— I believe not ; all books on morality ; I am given to under-
stand that is the tfature and description of the books that they
have in their library.
Do you mean to say there are no books, except on general
morality, and none that inculcate the peculiar tenets of the
Roman Catholic faith ? — I am not prepared to answer that
question ; I do not know.
Are there not some books in the library on the tenets of the
Catholic religion ?— I am sure there are ; I have no doubt at
all upon that.
And some books of Catholic devotion ? — I can have no doubt
that there are.
Could you tax your memory to recollect the names of the
different books ? — I cannot at all.
Any of them?— I really cannot at all.
You mentioned the Life of Christ ?— Yes ; I recollect tak-
ing that up and looking at it ; but I have not been particular
in examining so as to see what the titles of the other works
are.
Are there any other schools in Ballynakill besides that ?—
Yes ; there are private schools.
Have you gone to those schools from time to time ?— No ;
I do not think I have.
Then you can give no account of them ? — No ; except in the
general way.
Do you know what is paid for the education of the children
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 35
in those private schools? — It is something very moderate, but
I cannot say exactly.
You cannot say how much a quarter ? — No ; I never took
the trouble of inquiring.
Are there Protestant children attending the school at Bally-
nakill ?— There are.
Does the Protestant clergyman ever visit that school ? — I
have not seen him in it ; but I think it is likely that he does ;
I had a considerable hand in its formation, and the fundamen-
tal principle was, that nothing on the subject of religion
should be introduced ; they should be merely taught to read
and write, and account; and all religious instruction left to
their clergymen.
Out of what book are they taught? — I believe Enfield's
spelling-book is the principal book they have got ; and then I be-
lieve, Scott's Elocution ; I think I have seen Goldsmith's Greece
and Rome in it, that I took them up and approved of them,
and that I thought them very fit books and very instructive.
In that school or any schools you have ever been acquainted
with, have you ever known or heard of any of the following
books being read,, the History of Irish Rogues and Robbers,
Moll Flanders, or Tom Paine's Works?— No.
What books do the lower description of schoolmasters teach,
what are called the hedge schools ? — I have often gone for the
purpose of looking, and have seen generally a little work,
"Reading made Easy," and Enfield's Speaker, and a little
Primer ; I have not seen any thing beyond.
Have you ever met with a book which you considered as
immoral or improper at those schools ? — Never.
What is the conduct of those various schoolmasters ? — I be-
lieve they are well-conducted men ; they are very sharply
looked after, and if we found the least impropriety they would
be dismissed.
Who looks after them?— The clergymen, and the better
class of both communions.
Their practices then are very well known and watched ? —
They are, as far as my knowledge goes.
Do you consider them as of any great use in the country ;
do they succeed in teaching a great many people ? — I do con-
sider them as of very great use; there are 150 or 160 boys
and girls educated in that school I have referred to, in Bally-
nakill ; I think the greater number of them are Roman Ca-
tholics, for the population in that part of the country is Ro-
man Catholic.
Is not the Bible read by the Protestant children in that
school ? — I believe not.
D 2
36 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
By neither Protestant nor Catholic ?•— By neither one nor
the other.
Is the Bible read much by Catholics ?— Very much.
Has every respectable Catholic family a Bible in the house?
—Yes ; I believe so.
And every part of the Bible ? — Yes ; they are recommended
very much to read it ; but to read it with great caution, and
great humility of heart.
Is there not a considerable sale of Bibles in Ireland, by the
Dublin booksellers ?— I am not able to speak to that, from my
own knowledge.
There is no difficulty in purchasing a Bible ? — I should think
not.
There is no restriction ? — None whatever.
Any Catholic is permitted to go into a bookseller's shop,
and buy a Bible? — Certainly.
And he is not prevented by his priest from reading it ? —
No ; they are exceedingly anxious that they should read it, but
that they should read it with great humility of heart, and in-
voke the spirit of the Holy Ghost to assist them, and they
never wish to prohibit any decent man from reading it.
Do many Catholics read the Bible ? — I think a great many
Catholics, of the better educated class, read it, and read it
attentively.
In the event of a system of education being provided for
Ireland, which prevented any interference with the peculiar
religious opinions of Catholic and Protestant, do you not think
it would be more desirable to have schools established for Ca-
tholic and Protestant together, than to have separate establish-
ments for the Catholics and Protestants? — I should rather a
great deal see them together ; and if their morals, and their
religious instruction, were left to their clergy, and the two
united, and brought up together, I think it would be produc-
tive of the greatest advantage.
At what periods, at the school at Ballynakill, are the chil-
dren taught their religious duties? — Generally on Saturdays ;
but it is the practice of the Roman Catholics to have their
chapels, on Sunday, set apart in the mornings and evenings
for the religious instruction of the Roman Catholic children.
Is one day, Sunday, sufficient for the purpose? — Sunday is
the great day that they are all congregated together ; and they
are carefully instructed, both in the morning and evening, in
their religious duties.
Supposing one day in the week, besides Sunday, was alto-
gether given up for the purpose of the clergy teaching their
religious duties to the children, would not it be a good manner
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 37
of supplying sufficient instruction, without any interruption of
other duties ? — I should think it would.
Is it the Protestant version of the Bible which you say is
read ? — I believe, in Catholic families, it is the Douay version
which is generally used ; I very often take up the Protestant
version, and read it myself. 1 do not know whether my prac-
tice may be common or not.
In general it is the Douay version ? — I believe it is.
Can you say whether it includes both Testaments, the Old
and the New ?— In some cases, I believe it does not ; in some
cases I believe it does.
Are the Douay editions generally with or without notes ? —
The Douay version 1 generally see in Catholic families, is with
notes.
What is the impression made, in your neighbourhood, on
the public mind, particularly amongst the Catholics, on hear-
ing you were summoned to attend the Committee of this
House ? — They seemed very much gratified that any one of
their body would be called before Parliament, that a repre-
sentation should be made from themselves ; they seemed to
hail it as a prospect that their case would be carefully in-
quired into.
It gave satisfaction through the country, to find that one of
their religion had been sent for to explain the condition of
them to Parliament ? — I think it did.
To what class of persons do you allude in particular, and of
what number had you an opportunity of collecting the opinion?
— I certainly made no counting of them ; when I received the
order of the House, I lost very little time in proceeding ; but
all classes, high and low, expressed great satisfaction ; and if
I were disposed to be flattered, I should have been flattered by
the expression of their sentiments.
Was the appointment of this Committee generally known?
— Very generally known, and hailed as a very favourable
omen for our country.
You speak of Dublin, as well as of the country? — My stop
in Dublin was but for a few hours.
You did not collect any sentiments in Dublin? — I did not
stop to collect any sentiments there, but those I saw expressed
great pleasure at the appointment of the Committee, and at
the circumstance of my being summoned over to give evidence.
Have you, as secretary of the Catholics of the Queen's Coun-
ty, and as a member of the Catholic Board, had a consider-
able opportunity of collecting the opinions of the Catholics
on religious and other subjects?— I have.
What should you say was the opinion of the Catholic body
38 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
in respect of the Protestant church establishment in Ireland ?
— I firmly believe the Catholic body have no desire whatever
to intermeddle with it ; when I say intermeddle, I mean to
disturb it, or to appropriate any part of it, to divert it from
the establishment ; but, in common with the Protestants, they
would wish to be relieved from a portion of the burden of it.
Have you, in the conversations at meetings of Catholics, or
communications with Catholics, ever heard any speculation
advanced of a change in that establishment being desirable to
the Catholics of Ireland ?— Never ; nor do I believe the Ca-
tholics either wish or desire it.
Do the Catholics feel that that church has been established
permanently by the settlement of the Union? — I think they do.
On your own part, and the part of those with whom you
are acquainted, do you think there is any desire to interrupt
this settlement? — For my own part, I have no wish to inter-
rupt that settlement ; and I believe that is the feeling of
all those with whom I am connected or acquainted.
Is your belief of the opinion you have just expressed formed
from conversations and communications on the subject gene-
rally with the Catholics? — Formed from repeated conversa-
tions with the respectable Catholic proportion of the people
had repeatedly on the subject, and hearing their opinions ac-
cord completely with my own.
Are the Committee to understand, that you have collected
this from repeatedly conversing with them on the reasonable-
ness or permanency of the church establishment of Ireland ? —
From repeated conversations, the consequence of the discus-
sion of our question in both Houses of Parliament, and the
establishment being so much introduced, as a desirable thing
on the part of our body to destroy, break down, or invade.
Supposing the Catholic question to be carried, is it a matter
of speculation or at all desired, that the Catholic bishops
should be allowed to sit in Parliament? — I for myself can say,
and all those with whom I am intimately connected, most sin-
cerely desire that they shall not ; we hold it to be a place not
exactly suited for such characters, and I never hope to see
any of them in it ; they may easily be better employed.
Have you understood, that there has been a question with
regard to a veto on the Crown in the appointment of Catholic
bishops ; do you think that an objection to that measure ge-
nerally pervades the Roman Catholics throughout Ireland ?—
That is a very delicate question ; there is a great variety of
opinions upon it; under the existing circumstances of the
condition of the Catholics I can only give my own opinion, if
it is thought worthy of being had ; I should be exceedingly
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 39
sorry to concede to the Crown, under the present existing cir-
cumstances, any interference, directly or indirectly, with the
appointment of our bishops.
Do you believe that to be the general opinion of the Catho-
lics ? — I believe it to be so ; but if the question of emancipa-
tion were carried, and matters became settled and well under-
stood, I have then very little doubt, that a very little time
would remove much of the objection, but not the whole, that
exists at present to the interference of the Crown in the ap-
pointment of our bishops.
Could you state why that objection should exist for the pre-
sent, supposing the question to be carried, and not to continue
after a certain period ? — My own impression is, that circum-
stanced as the Catholic body is at present, an excluded and
proscribed sect in their own country, the Catholics would take
up the opinion, that if the Crown had a right of nomination
and interference in the appointment of their bishops, their
object would be to selec-t unworthy personages for filling the
high situations which have been alluded to ; but if we become
one and the same people, and those obstructions removed, I
think the good feeling that would be inculcated would at once
show, that the danger now that appears so very strong, would
not then exist in reality.
You see no objection then, in point of ecclesiastical disci-
pline, to the interference of the Crown ; your objection to the
interference would rest on your apprehension of the manner
in which the influence might be exercised ? — I am under the
impression, that it is an ecclesiastical regulation, and that it
might be so managed in the event of these matters occurring.
That being the obstacle opposed to Catholic emancipa-
tion, how would you propose to remove it in the first instance?
— As a Roman Catholic, and communicating with the respect-
able portion of them, we have always deeply regretted that
our emancipation has been so mixed up with ecclesiastical
matters ; we have always considered it most unfortunate that
the questions have not been separated ; our earnest wish
would be for every possible guard and barrier, and fence and
protection to the established church, and that all her rites
and immunities should be preserved ; but to let the body have
their political emancipation, we cannot discover how the ex-
clusion of the laity from corporate rights, from filling the office
of sheriffs, and from seats in Parliament, can have any con-
nexion whatever with our religious habits and feelings.
Then you do not think that the objection to such eccle-
siastical arrangements would proceed from the Roman Ca-
tholic laity ?~- Nor do I believe that it would from the clergy if
40 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
the question was once settled, and matters allowed to come to a
proper understanding, which I think they would do in a very
little time indeed.
What do you mean by the guards you refer to ? — I mean by
that, that I would suppose that it was quite fair and reason-
able that the Lord Chancellor of England, and other^pf the
ministers, that those should be exclusively fitted for their sta-
tions by taking the test oaths as they stand at present.
You mean, that they should be Protestants?—! do, exclu-
sively so.
Does it appear to you, that the Catholics consider it a
grievance to have to support the Protestant clergymen? — They
feel, in common with their Protestant fellow-citizens, the
great burden of supporting the Protestant clergy of Ireland ;
but I have it from several of the rectors, to whom I pay tithe,
that the Roman Catholics pay them with greater facility and
pleasure than those of their own communion.
Does it occur to you, it would give satisfaction to the Roman
Catholic people, if their clergy were rendered more indepen-
dent by receiving a provision from the state ? — I think, as we
are now circumstanced, it would not ; I think the people's
affections would be alienated from them if they were to accept
any thing from the Crown.
Do you think they would accept it ? — I believe one out of
fifty might ; but in general I think they would not.
Have the goodness to state the grounds on which you think
that would produce an alienation of the people from the
priesthood ? — The expression of the opinion of a large body of
Catholic people whom I have heard from time to time speak
upon the subject.
Have they stated any reasons why they would not repose
the same confidence in a priesthood paid by the state ? — Yes ;
I have heard them state as one, that they conceive they would
not be so attentive to their religious duties as they are at the
present moment ; that they would be more obedient and ob-
sequious to persons in power, than attentive to their religious
duties.
Would those objections be removed by the question of eman-
cipation being settled?— I have already stated, that I thi»k
they would.
How does it occur to you, that the priesthood would be less
obsequious or more attentive to their duties if Catholic eman-
cipation were granted ? — Because the people would then re-
ceive, I conceive, equal advantages, by being admitted to a
participation of the blessings of the British constitution.
Do you not think such a measure would tend greatly to
MR, JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 41
alleviate the difficulties and the expenses to which the poor
are now put in Ireland ? — I think the poor people would prefer
the trifle, the miserable and trifling pittance they do give, to
having the clergy paid by the Crown at the present moment.
Can you state what is given ? — I believe I can ; at Easter
time and at Christmas time, the adults of the poorer classes
usually give from five to ten pence per head ; and in a great
many instances, nothing whatever. The better classes go on
from 2s. 6rf. to 5s. half-yearly ; and in a very few instances,
the clergyman may have a pound half-yearly from the better
class of Catholics, who usually accompany it with a little
oats for the maintenance of his horse, probably a barrel,
or, I believe, in most cases riot exceeding two. At chris-
tenings they have very small dues from the poorer people,
and very often perform them without any fee ; the better class
may give them from half-a-crown to half-a-guinea or a pound.
At interments they usually get a fee, something about a
pound, from the most respectable; and downwards, to very
small sums. At marriages it is usual to have what is termed
bride cake ; and at a respectable marriage, a clergyman may
get from five pounds to ten or fifteen pounds, each person
gives a pound, or whatever he pleases. I believe these to be
the principal sources from which they derive their emolu-
ments.
What do they get at the marriages of the poorest people ? —
I think I have heard from half-a-guinea to one pound ten
shillings.
What do you suppose is the income of the Catholic clergy-
man of your own parish ? — It has been considered the best
parish by much in the diocese ; the priest died about two
months back, and the parish is now divided into two. Here-
tofore it was considered to produce better than 400/. a year ;
now that will make for each parish priest, as I am informed,
and I believe correctly, something about 2001. a year.
What number of curates are there? — For this they will
maintain one curate for each 2001. ; the 200/. includes the
whole of the things that come in.
Is the curate maintained exclusively at the expense of the
rector? — Certainly, the curate has one-fifth of the produce of
the parish arising from the dues I have spoken to, the clergy-
man being obliged to maintain him besides.
What is the general opinion as to the value of the parish
to the Protestant rector ? — I can speak positively to that, from
being the commissioner in the case ; it is something about
440£. a-year, with a charming glebe house, and about 35 acres
of very prime land.
42 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
Independent of the glebe house and these 35 acres, the Ca-
tholic receives as much as the Protestant ?— No, the Catholic
receives 2001. ; and heretofore the parish of Ballynakill com-
prised the parishes of Abbeyleix, Ballynakill, and Ballyroan ;
now, in Abbeyleix, I believe, the Tithe Bill has not come into
operation, but I believe the rector expects above 500/. per aji-
num, independent of his glebe house and lands ; Ballyroan I
know, because the Bill has been in operation, I think it is 440/.
per annum, and Ballynakill cannot be under that sum, but
we have yet two years of the average to ascertain.
Ballynakill is the parish which was divided by the Catholic
clergyman into two? — Yes.
It paid 4001. a year before it was divided to the Catholic
clergyman ; what does it pay to the Protestant? — Something
more than 1,300/.; for, besides glebe houses and lands, it is
composed of the three parishes I have referred to ; and Dr.
Doyle has divided the parish, thinking 200/. a year enough for
a Catholic clergyman.
Then the Catholic clergyman receives about one-third what
the Protestant does ?— Yes, independent of the glebe lands and
house.
Do you mean to say, that before the division which was
made by Dr. Doyle, the Catholic parish or Catholic union
was precisely co-extensive with the Protestant? — The Catholic
union comprised the parish of Abbeyleix, the parish of Bally-
roan, and Ballynakill.
Which was the largest of the two, the Protestant or the
Catholic ? — The Roman Catholic equalized those three Pro-
testant parishes, and was, in point of extent, fully equal at
all events.
How much do you say the Protestant clergyman received
out of all these parishes ? — The Protestant rector and vicar
of Abbeyleix, will receive, I am informed, under the Tithe
Bill, something more than 5001. per annum ; in Ballyna-
kill the sum will not be under 440/. and I think it likely it may
be a little over ; and in Ballyroan the Bill is in operation, arid
the sum agreed for there, I think and believe, is 440/.
And the glebe house besides ? — The glebe house of Abbey-
leix and the glebe -lands, with the glebe and glebe lands of
Ballynakill.
Do the Protestant clergymen reside in either of these glebe
houses? — The Protestant clergyman of Abbeyleix has always
resided in his parish ; I believe his curate resides in the glebe
house ; the Protestant clergyman of Ballynakill having been
lately appointed, intends, I have heard, residing in his glebe-
house.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 43
The result of this then is, that there are three Protestant
parishes pretty nearly co-extensive with two Roman Catholic,
as they now stand? — Yes; the two producing, as I think,
400/. a-year ; each 200/.
And the Protestant producing, independent of the glebe-
houses and lands, 1,380/. ?— Yes.
Are not the Catholics as much interested in the present set-
tlement of the landed property in Ireland as the Protestants?
— Yes, to the full extent ; we are very sensible, that if the
least interference in the settlement of property was to take
place, our properties in common would go into the scramble,
and we should lose all.
When you say the Catholics, you mean the existing Catho-
lic proprietors? — Yes, certainly.
Is there not a great extent of the landed property in Ire-
land now in the possession of Catholics ? — There is, to a great
extent ; I speak of my own knowledge, independent of my
own neighbourhood ; in my own neighbourhood, there are
Catholics residing, who possess considerable estates in fee, in
the counties of Tipperary, Wexford, Kilkenny, and elsewhere.
Has not a large quantity of landed property been purchased
of late years by Catholics ?— :Yes ; whenever opportunities
have presented themselves, they have endeavoured to pur-
chase.
Are there not Catholics who have large estates under per-
petual leases? — Yes.
And also under leases, that have a considerable time to
run ? — Yes.
Then the Catholics are interested, in your opinion, in pre-
serving the settlement of the landed property in Ireland? —
They are ,• they are under the conviction, that if any unfortu-
nate scramble took place, in common with the rest of their
fellow-subjects, they would lose their property also.
Would it be possible to restore to the old proprietors the
property taken from them?— No ; certainly not.
Could the original proprietors be discovered? — I believe
they could not.
You believe there is no ground for the views which Catho-
lics have been represented to have, of interfering with the
settlement of the landed property in Ireland ? — Upon that, I
conceive, I am well informed ; and my opinion is, they have
no foundation whatever.
Is the majority of the present Roman Catholic property in
Ireland held under the same holdings as the Protestant pro-
perty ?— Precisely.
And very little under the original holdings ?— I believe
44 MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
there is very little from the original holders ; I am not aware
of any.
You were examined yesterday, with respect to the circula-
tion of Pastorini's prophecies ; were you aware, that hand-
bills had been circulated in the county of Limerick, contain-
ing an extract of those prophecies, and observations, trying to
inculcate the probability of their being fulfilled? — I never
heard it until this day : I never heard of such an occurrence.
Then those handbills having been so circulated in the county
of Limerick, are you of opinion they could have been circu-
lated by individuals having any other views but those of pro-
moting insurrection and disturbance ? — I conceive they cannot
have had any other object in view but that of promoting in-
surrection and disturbance, and that they must be the bitter-
est enemies the Roman Catholics can possibly have.
You stated yesterday that there were no Roman Catholic
grand jurors in your county ; do you mean to say there are
none placed upon the grand jury, or none qualified to be grand
juries ? — I meant to say that I think there are Roman Catho-
lics in Queen's County of equal respectability and intelli-
gence, and possessing equal property with many serving on
the grand jury ; but I am not prepared to say it is done from
any invidious or unkind motive.
Have there never been Roman Catholics on the grand jury ?
— I never recollect an instance of a grand juryman there of the
Roman Catholic persuasion.
Have you ever known gentlemen of that description attend
the sheriff, with a view to be put upon the jury ? — Never.
Then would the sheriff have the power ? — I am not aware
whether they ever did.
Was it from non-attendance, and not indisposition on the
part of the sheriff, that they were not placed upon the jury ?
—I do not know whether they waited upon the sheriff, for the
purpose of being placed upon it, or not ; I have no knowledge
one way or the other.
What number of Roman Catholics, of rank and considera-
tion, have been left out of the grand jury of the Queen's
County ? — I do not say any have been left out, but have not
been called upon it ; there is one possessed of an estate in fee,
and I think others of equal respectability, having considerable
property, though not in Queen's County, but there are a great
many Protestants, who serve on the grand jury in the Queen's
County, who have not an estate in fee.
Are you aware whether the Roman Catholic gentlemen con-
sider this a grievance? — The Roman Catholic gentlemen are
in the habit of talking the matter over, and they do consider
it a grievance.
MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED. 45
Are you aware that that is not the case in adjoining coun-
ties?— I am aware in the county of Kilkenny, and the county
of Tipperary, it is otherwise ; and I would mention Waterford
too, and I believe Wexford.
Do you consider that the Roman Catholics have, generally
speaking, been advancing or otherwise, in property, during
the last seven or eight years? — I consider that they are ad-
vancing in property.
In what species of property ?— Both in commercial and
landed property.
Do you conceive that the majority of middle men, in the
south and west of Ireland, have been Catholics or. Protes-
tants ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with the districts re-
ferred to, to answer that.
Do you consider that the acquisition of landed property, by
the Roman Catholics, has been principally in the shape of fee
simple, or of leasehold property ? — I think the greater propor-
tion in leasehold property, giving fines upon it, and getting
perpetuities, rendering it a valuable interest.
Do not you consider that the great depression in agricul-
tural produce has fallen much more severely on those possess-
ing leasehold interests than on those who are owners in fee?
— The proportion of leasehold interests being much greater
than the fee, the depression must have affected both, but I
think those who have purchased within a few years back have
suffered immensely, in common with those who have given
large fines on perpetuities.
Do not you think that the advance in agricultural prices
during the war, tended to create a great increase of property
in the hands of lessees, as contra-distinguished from their
landlords ?— I think it did.
Do not you think that circumstance operated very much to
raise into respectability a great class of Roman Catholics? —
I think it did, equally with the Protestants; where Roman
Catholics were greater in number a greater number were ad-
vanced, where it was less a lesser number were advanced.
You think the depression in those prices has operated in a
corresponding manner, but in the opposite direction? — Exactly.
Have you any knowledge in what degree Roman Catholics
are proprietors of bank stock in Ireland? — No, I cannot form
an opinion ; but I know that Roman Catholics hold a great
quantity of bank stock, and all kinds of government securities.
Can you say whether the Royal Canal was a mode of in-
vesting money in which Catholics were engaged ? — I know
nothing of the Royal Canal, thank God, nor any thing of that
nature.
Do you conceive that the majority of men of capital and of
46' MR. JOHN DUNN EXAMINED.
persons employed in commerce in Dublin, are Protestants or
Roman Catholics?— I think it would be a very difficult task
for me to state that, as 1 am not in the habit of asking men
their creed ; but I know a vast number of Roman Catholics of
considerable wealth in Dublin, commanding great capital.
Are the Committee to understand that you do not know the
proportion of Protestants and Catholics in Dublin ? — I do not
know which is the majority of them ; I never took pains to
ascertain the creed of them.
Is there any merchant in Dublin about whose creed you
have any doubts ? — There are several whose creed I do not
know.
With whom you are acquainted: — Yes; there are several
with whom I have intercourse whose creed I do not know at
this moment.
In your opinion what would be the effect of improved edu-
cation and increased wealth on the Catholic body in Ireland? — •
Educate them well, and I apprehend they will sooner see their
state of degradation ; I do not think any thing can more con-
vince them of their degraded state, than to educate and bring
home to their full comprehension, that they are not on a
footing with their fellow citizens.
To what class of society do the priests of your part of the
country usually belong ? — The higher ranks of society in the
Queen's County are of the established church.
From what ranks of society are the Catholic priests in your
county drawn ? — They are generally taken from the humble
classes of farmers, but within the last ten or fifteen years the
Roman Catholics bishops have been considerably more parti-
cular, and they will not accept of those that are not from a
better or higher grade of Catholic families.
It is very desirable that they should be drawn from the
higher classes ? — It is so considered.
Do not you think, that giving the Roman Catholic clergy a
respectable and suitable maintenance would have a great
effect in producing that ? — Without conceding to the body
political emancipation, I am under the impression that it
would not be accepted of; nor would it be of any value ; the
people would look on their clergy with a jealous eye, as more
under the influence of those from whom they had money than
attentive to their religious duties.
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 47
.
9° die Junii, 1824.
The Reverend Michael Collitis called in ; and Examined.
You are a Roman Catholic clergyman? — I am.
You reside in the county of Cork and officiate there? — I am
parish priest of Skibbereen, in the county of Cork.
How many years have you resided there ? — Since March,
1814.
Previously to officiating at Skibbereen as parish priest,
were you not officiating in another part of the county in that
capacity? — Yes, at Castletownroche and Bally holy.
The neighbourhood of Castletownroche has been very much
disturbed of late ? — So I heard.
The part of the county in which you have resided latterly
about Skibbereen, has that been disturbed ? — No ; save only
the riot occasioned by Mr. Morrett's tithe exactions, where
one police man, and two of the country people and a bailiff
were killed.
Was the condition of the peasantry of the lower orders, at
the time you left the town of Castletownroche, better or
worse than that of the parish to which you have now gone ? —
Better, I conceive ; but then there is a difference in the
periods of time ; in March, 1814, or the succeeding month, the
war ceased, and a depression in the value of land imme-
diately ensued, and a consequent cessation of employment of
the poor.
The question refers to the actual condition of the people
with respect to comfort — has their comfort in general been
higher at Castletownroche than at Skibbereen? — Yes, the
farmers were more substantial ; they had larger farms, and
the labourers, as far as I could judge, more comfortable and
better fed.
They had pretty constant work in that part of the country?
— Yes.
Are you well acquainted with the condition of the peasantry
in both parishes ? — I have had opportunities of knowing it,
and have availed myself of them.
What do you consider to have been the causes which led to
the late disturbances? — I conceive the causes of discontent
are many : first, the sudden depression of value in the pro-
duce of land, and the inability of occupiers of land to pay
the rents assumed during the war ; secondly, the consequence
of this inability, the non-employment of the labouring poor ;
48 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
the pressure of heavy rents ; the pressure of tithes and local
taxes ; but principally the exactions of landlords and tithe
owners, and other tithe agents ; the mal-administration of jus-
tice ; the partial and corrupt administration of justice.
On the part of the magistrates ? — On the part of the ma-
gistrates and in the manor courts ; and the impression upon
the minds of the common people, that there was no law for
them but the will of the magistrates ; and that there was no
law from which they could derive redress, no fixed law of the
land, except through the interest or favour they may happen
to possess with magistrates.
Do you conceive there was any political cause? — I think
there was one great cause that will always, so long as it
exists, predispose the people to disturbance, and to suspect
(perhaps without cause) the administration of justice ; that
is, their being, in their own minds, a degraded and oppressed
class, when they compare themselves with other classes of the
king's subjects.
Do you allude to their political disabilities ? — I do most
distinctly.
Do you think that is felt by them as a cause of grievance?
—I know it is. It is not felt as a practical and immediate
grievance ; but it is felt by them as a cause why they have not
the same confidence in those in power as the favoured classes
have, and why they are oppressed, because they consider them-
selves to be looked on as belonging to a degraded caste.
Can you give the Committee any instances from which you
are led to conclude that they do take a lively interest in that
question ? — There was a measure lately proposed by the asso-
ciation in Dublin, called the Catholic Association, to raise a
fund for the redress of Catholic grievances, and for the pro-
motion of what they called the Catholic cause in this country
through the medium of the press ; the proposal was, that there
should 'be a monthly penny or half-penny subscription, accord-
ing to the ability or will of the individuals for the promotion
of that object, and wherever that project has been introduced,
it has been taken up most ardently by the people.
Do you known of any collection having been made ? — Yes ;
to produce a collection, it is necessary that some individual or
individuals should take the lead. I have not in my parish in-
troduced it, nor has any other individual yet. I have not in-
troduced it, because I am the Catholic clergyman, and I do not
wish to combine much politics with my duty as a priest ; but
if it were introduced, I would second and promote it. I have
particular reasons for not so doing at present, for I am under
the necessity of endeavouring to build, by voluntary subscrip-
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 49
tions (having no other means), a Catholic chapel, and I ap-
prehend, that the raising such a subscription at present would
impede the progress of the chapel ; but I know that in the
town of Cionakilty it has been introduced, and I have been
assured lately, that the farmers, and even the labourers, most
ardently embrace the opportunity of manifecting their attach-
ment to what they call the cause of the Catholics, by contri-
buting.
You consider that as a proof of the interest they take? —
Yes.
How much money has been raised ? — I was told by a person
that acted as secretary, that in one month they had ten pounds
ready to be transmitted, and that there might be ten pounds
more for local purposes, ancj to defray some expenses of pub-
lication.
Was it all collected in pennies ? — In pennies.
That was remitted to the Catholic Association? — It was to
be remitted to the Catholic Association.
Do you conceive that the granting the Catholic Question,
as it is called, would contribute immediately to tranquillize
the minds of the people? — I do not conceive it would imme-
diately produce tranquillity ; but I think it would lay such a
foundation, that if it were accompanied with a redress of
other grievances, it would lead to the tranquillization of the
country, and to what I conceive to be the cordial union in
social and civil matters of the people of all classes and reli-
gious sects ; the people would be amalgamated into one common
mass.
Do you think that, without that foundation, the other mea-
sures you have alluded to would be sufficient? — I think they
may produce temporary quiet, but I do not think the country
would be permanently so ; when I say that I think the coun-
try would not be permanently quiet, I mean to say, that I do
not think the people generally would have that affectionate
attachment to the present order of things, as would induce
them to step forward and support the existing government in
any exigency.
You have alluded to the general impression, that justice was
not fairly administered ; in that observation, you allude to
the conduct of magistrates generally throughout the country?
— Yes.
Can you state to the Committee, to what extent you think
that defect in the administration of the law is felt, and any
instances which you think would throw a light upon the sub-
ject?— I think that evil has been considerably diminished since
the introduction of the system of holding petty sessions,
50 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
whereby the magistrates act in open court, and under the re-
straint of the public opinion ; they are more or less cognizant
by public opinion, and their acts are liable to be scrutinized ;
but before that institution, I do know several instances, I have
known magistrates who had no other visible mode of support,
but the trade they carried on as magistrates.
Do you mean taking fees? — Receiving presents to a large
\ amount, having their work done, presents of potatoes, corn
and cattle, and presents of money too.
Having potatoes dug for them? — Having potatoes dug for
them, their turf cut, and their other work done, if they had
any to do ; they were supported by the contributions thus
raised, and by donations in money. I do not state this of my
own personal knowledge, but as the common belief.
Do you speak of that part of the county where you are now
established, or of that part of the county where you lived be-
fore?— That part where I live at present.
Were those matters notorious ? — As notorious as the noon-
day sun.
Does that subsist still ? — I cannot say that it subsists to the
extent that it subsisted heretofore.
You speak as to the extent of the evil, but with regard to
the impression as to the facility of obtaining strict justice,
was that felt in the former parish in which you were, as well
as in the latter? — 1 certainly must own, that I did not hear of
any complaints in the part of the country where I resided,
when parish priest of Castletownroche.
How long have you been in your present parish ? — Since the
• year 1814. The principal reason why no complaints existed
i in Castletownroche, is this, the gentlemen that had the com-
mission of the peace in that part of the county were princi-
pally gentlemen of high rank and character ; and if others
came into that office, they were under their control, more or
less ; and I do conceive, that where gentlemen of high rank
and character resided and acted, there was less abuse than
where the office of magistrate was committed to persons of
little property, and of very inferior education.
Have not several of the objectionable magistrates in that
county which you have gone to reside in, been removed? —
Some of them ; and some meritorious magistrates too.
Have you known instances of particular misconduct on the
. part of magistrates? — Indeed the instances were so numerous
in that part of the country, they were so constant, as scarcely
to excite particular notice; I have known instances within
my own knowledge.
Is there any delicacy on the part of magistrates, in inter*
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 51
fering with respect to complaints made by the tenants of
other gentlemen against their landlords ?— Yes ; I do not
know whether that has been diminished since the institution
of the petty sessions, because, I take it, they now think it
compulsory upon them to listen to complaints ; but before the
institution of petty sessions, that sort of etiquette existed ; a
man applying for justice was often obliged to shift about in
vain from one magistrate to another.
It was thought an unneighbourly and unkind thing? — Yes,
and a breach of gentlemanly conduct, to take informations
where gentlemen were concerned.
Do you consider that the lower orders are attached, or
otherwise, to the gentry of the country ? — I do not think they
are very much attached to them.
Do not you consider, that sometimes that unwillingness was
caused by a belief that the complaint was very often frivolous ?
—No, I do not think so on that ground, but it was conceived
it would be a breach of respect and regard.
Are the Committee to understand, that when a tenant
came to a magistrate to complain against his landlord, that if
the magistrate found what was the nature of the intended
complaint, he declined hearing it altogether ; that it was not
that he refused to act upon it, having listened to it, but that
it often occurred that he refused to hear the statement of it ?
— If the person of whom the complaint was made were a gen-
tleman, or ranked as a gentleman, and he were on good terms
with the magistrate to whom the application for redress was
made, the magistrate very often declined interfering, because
it would lead to a personal result between him and the
gentleman.
In any of those cases in which you have known magistrates
decline receiving informations, were they, in point of fact,
applied to when there were other magistrates, who lived
nearer the residence of the complainant, who had been passed
over? — In general the application was made, first to the ma-
gistrate nearest, and then to one more remote ; the nearer
magistrate would probably not interfere, because he would
assign some pretext, the remote magistrate would not inter-
fere, because the nearer did not.
When you speak of magistrates of that district, do yon
describe middle men in general, or gentlemen of property ? —
There are a very few gentlemen of rank in the district, but
where gentlemen of rank and education reside and act, justice
is generally very fairly dispensed.
Is not Lord Carberry a resident in the county ?-— Not irame«
diately in the part where I reside.
a 2,
52 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
Spending a very large income in the country? — Yes ; he has
a large income.
You have stated, that you do not think there is much al
tachment on^the part of the peasantry of Ireland to the gentry ;
but where a^gentleman, having patrimonial interest in the
soil resides, and conducts himself well to the people, is there
not a great disposition to be attached to him ? — A great dis-
position ; but I am afraid there is a feeling amongst the peo-
ple that deducts considerably from that attachment ; they feel
that they exist more by sufferance than by law ; but wherever
they are treated kindly they are grateful, because they think
the kindness extraordinary, and the result of natural benevo-
lence rather than of the law ; nevertheless, though they
are grateful to the individual, they are disaffected to the
system.
Since the establishment of petty sessions, do the magistrates
ever act in their individual capacity out of petty sessions ? —
Yes ; instances have come to my knowledge.
In what cases ? — In tithe cases ; I have heard of their act-
ing out of petty sessions in other cases too. In tithe cases
two magistrates must act.
To what kind of tithe cases do you allude ? — I was going to
state, what the Committee are aware of, that there is an Act
of Parliament that enables magistrates, not being clergymen,
to adjudicate tithes in a summary way, upon a complaint
made by tithe claimants for the substraction of tithe.
Veneris, 11° die Junii, 1824..
THE RIGHT HON. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON,
IN THE CHAIR.
The Rev. Michael Collins again called in ; and Examined.
BEFORE you left the county of Cork, was it generally known
that you had been summoned over to attend this Committee ?
• — It was.
What impression did it make upon the people of the coun-
try ? — it appeared to me to have excited sensations of delight
amongst the Catholics in our neighbourhood, and among the
people interested in the general welfare of the country.
What did they understand by the summons you had received?
—They understood the summons was for the purpose of eliciting
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 53
information as to the real state of the country, and the causes
of distress and discontents that exist.
You have stated on a former day, that a leading cause of
disturbance was the discontent felt by the people in conse-
quence of the laws that deprive them of certain political pri-
vileges ? — Yes ; it appears to me that that is the root of all
the discontents.
Does that keep their minds in a state susceptible of any in-
surrectionary contagion in the neighbourhood, coming from
the neighbouring counties ? — They look upon themselves as
disfavoured, almost as aliens in the country, having no com-
mon interest with the more favoured part of the community.
Any neighbouring disturbance spreads rapidly amongst
them? — I ain satisfied, that notwithstanding the influence of
the priests and the exertions of the gentry, and the remon-
strances used to the people in our part of the country, which
I think contributed to keep them quiet, that the flame of
insurrection, which was arrested by the suppression of the
explosion, if I may so call the open attack made by the popu-
lace upon the military near Macroom, had it reached our part
of the country, would have been caught and have spread
through it ; I am convinced of it.
Have they any definite notions of the manner in which the
penal laws aflect them ? — No, I do not think they have any
definite notions upon that point ; they look upon themselves
as contrasted with the Protestants of their own rank, and as
degraded compared with them. They feel themselves insulted,
and are sensible of what they consider the insolence which
the Protestant peasantry feel on account of the privileges they
enjoy.
Do they fancy they are more degraded than they really are?
— I think they do, for they are not fully aware of the extent
of the repeal of the penal code.
They fancy the Protestants are more protected than they
really are ? — They fancy that whenever there is a competition t
and contest between them and the Protestants, the Protestants 4
would be always the favoured party.
Does this feeling contribute to counteract the good effect of
measures that are intended for their good ? — I am satisfied it
does. It perpetuates jealousy and distrust.
In cases where landlords act with great kindness towards
them, is not that benevolent disposition considerably counter-
acted by the general feeling of the people in regard to their
political condition ? — It is ; they are sensible of the kind-
ness of individuals, but they are still discontented with the
system.
54 "REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED*
Are there any recollections prevalent in the county, with
regard to the old times, the conquest of Ireland by the English ?
—There are those recollections ; they appear to me to be up-
held and perpetuated by the distinction created by the law.
Have they traditions in the country of what happened in
those times ? — They have traditions and tales about the mas-
sacre and execution of priests, the priest-hunters, and the
difficulty they had heretofore in hearing mass; they were
obliged to resort to bogs and morasses for that purpose.
They have also recollections of the liberty, and what they
conceive the privileges they enjoyed formerly, compared with
their present degraded state.
Do they feel that their religion was persecuted in former
times ? — They know it was ; and there are many people living
still, that will tell you tales of persecution, and tales of pro-
tection afforded by individual Protestants.
Do they refer to periods during the reigns of Queen Anne
and George the First ?— They have not those distinct historical
recollections ; they talk of Elizabeth frequently, they talk of the
invasion of the Spaniards in 1601, and of Lord Tyrone coming
down to assist them, of Lord Mountjoy and the massacres of
that period.
Do they recollect any thing about Cromwell, or know any
thing from tradition ?l-They have Cromwell's Bridge, and
there are many places that are pointed out by the name of
Cromwell ; they know even the individuals that are descended
from the soldiers of Cromwell.
Js there such an expression as, " The Curse of Cromwell" ?
—Yes, I have beard that expression.
What does it mean? — I do not know what definite meaning
it has ; I think it means, that such a calamity as Cromwell
brought upon the country may fall upon you.
How is the expression used ?— It is used as a curse.
At what period in the last century, between 1700 and 1800,
did the persecution of the priests cease to exist ? — I believe no
practical persecution existed beyond the year 1779, nor for
some time before that, I believe, because there was a law
passed, that enabled priests to register themselves as parish
priests, or as priests of particular districts, and allowed them
to officiate.
In the reign of George the First and George the Se-
cond, was there not a good deal of persecution? — Yes; it
is frequently recollected ; I recollect myself hearing my father
tell a story of an uncle of his who was a priest, having
been met by a gentleman of influence in the country at a
funeral, it was the old Sir John, or Sir Richard Cox, the
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 55
son of the Chancellor of that name ; at this funeral a number
of priests attended, but they did not accompany the funeral
in any badges that would designate them as clergymen, they
were all dressed as farmers ; he supposed them to be priests,
and came up to them, and asked one of them what he was ;
one said that he was a farmer, and another said that he was a
shoemaker, or something of that kind, endeavouring to elude
his inquiries, because they knew they should be taken up;
this old gentleman said he was a farmer ; he was recognised
about ten or twenty years afterwards, in different parts of the
county, by the said Sir Richard Cox, and saluted as a farmer t-f •
by Sir Richard, though he knew he was a priest under the
protection of the law.
What effect have these penal laws, with regard to the Ca-
tholics, upon the lower classes of Protestants, with respect to
their treatment of Catholics ? — It gives them a sort of confi-
dence to commit crimes against the Roman Catholics in many
instances ; it produces insolence in their demeanour and in
their conduct, and, on the other hand it produces, in the Ca-
tholics, irritation and something like indignation ; however,
those feelings are often superseded by the more natural
feelings of good neighbourhood and social affection ; it is only
when distinctions are generally encouraged in the country, by
a political party, that the bonds of society are broken asunder,
and then they range themselves under their several banners.
Is the same kind of influence discovered working amongst
the upper orders of Protestants? — I do think that a sort of
politeness, the effect of a good education, restrains in a great
measure the expression of such feelings, where they exist ;
but, however, there is, amongst the upper order of Catho-
lics, a certain humble feeling, which prevents them from feel- < »
ing that they are upon a level with Protestants of the same
rank, except in places where the superior numbers of the Ca-
tholics more or less counterbalances the effect of the penal
code.
Do vou allude to a habit of submission ? — Yes ; and even a
Catholic gentleman, should he get the commission of the peace,
or any other situation, or any other office of honour or of emo-
lument, does not rely upon his tenure as confidently as a Pro-
testant of the same rank does ; he thinks it is more or less pre-
carious ; that he is not sure of holding his place ; that he is
liable to be removed, he knows not how or why.
Will you explain what you mean by the penal code? — Those
disqualifying laws, that deprive the Catholics of certain privi-
leges which Protestants of the same rank in life enjoy.
Having described the effect of the penal code upon the body
56 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
of Catholics, will you explain to the Committee in what way
you conceive the removal of that penal code would operate, in
producing a better feeling and better disposition ? — I think
the removal of those artificial distinctions created by law be-
tween Protestants and Catholics, as they affect the social and
civil relations, would tend to obliterate those unpleasant re-
collections and feelings that are perpetuated by the penal
code; that the Catholic would feel himself elevated, and the
Protestant sunk to his proper rank ; that there would be no
distinctions between Catholics and Protestants, except the
distinctions which the natural relations of society would pro-
duce ; the Catholic peasant and the Protestant peasant would
be upon a common level ; the Catholic gentleman and the Pro-
testant gentleman would be upon a common level ; and the
Catholic peasant would respect the Protestant gentleman, not
because he is a Protestant, but because he is a gentleman ;
the Protestant peasant would respect the Catholic gentleman,
or would cease to despise him ; and in fact, the interference
of religious feelings with social and political duties or rela-
tions would be altogether removed.
Would it contribute practically and extensively to quell the
spirit of insurrection ? — I am convinced it would ; and that by
the extinction of the undue superiority on the one hand, and
the undue humiliation on the other, the inhabitants of all de-
nominations would all soon fall into one cordial feeling with
respect to civil and political matters, and that there would be
no religious distinctions between Protestants and Catholics,
except their going on days of worship to their several places
of worship.
Do you think it would produce immediate tranquillity in the
country? — Not that single measure.
Would it prepare their minds to become more tranquil ? — I
think it would prepare their minds in that way ; nor do I
think that in all cases the irritations that have been provoked,
by the long continuance of that code, would be effaced from
the minds of the present generation instantly ; but I am sure,
that, in ten or twenty years, no traces of religious differences,
connected with political matters, would exist in the country.
It would lay a foundation for all measures calculated to im-
prove their condition, having their proper and full effect ? — It
would ; it would produce a moral revolution in the country,
or rather a moral reformation.
Without the repeal of this penal code, do you think that
the various measures that have been suggested, if carried into
effect for their improvement, will have the effect they ought
to have ?— I do not think they would.
REV. MICHAEL COLLtNS EXAMINED. 57
What effect do you conceive the removal of this penal code
would have, in respect to strengthening the connexion between1
Ireland and England ? — I think that the connexion between
Ireland and England would, in that case, be consolidated and r
indissoluble ; for in spite of the operation of that code, it is •
every day strengthening, from the confidence which the Irish
people generally have, that it is to England alone they are to
look for justice and relief ; from the sense they have of the
equity and magnanimity of the English people. They think •
that England has hitherto done much for them, and is likely
to do more ; this impression has been particularly made upon
the minds of the peasantry ; and notwithstanding the preju-
dices that existed against the English heretofore, arising from
the recollections of former persecutions, they have latterly
attached themselves to England, especially since the year 1822,
they looked to England, and to England alone for relief, both
from what they conceived their present grievances, and for
future improvement and prosperity. Every reflecting man in '
the country considers the destinies of Ireland uare bound up
with England.
Do you find a feeling growing generally through that
part of the country you are acquainted with, in favour of
England? — Universally; when the agents of the relief com-
mittee came over, they were hailed as deliverers by the people.
Men carried bonfires on their heads through the streets, sa-
luting them ; men carried pitch barrels on their heads, the
upper parts of them on fire ; and this joy and gratitude were
testified not only in the town,, but in the country, wherever
Mr. Waddington and Mr. Warmington went. I myself wit-
nessed the gentlemen shedding tears, so much were they
affected by the gratitude of the people.
Are they acquainted with the proceedings in Parliament,
sufficiently to know that their condition is matter of consider-
able attention ? — Those that can read are very anxious to get
political information, and they diffuse that information among-
their uninformed neighbours.
And they have some acquaintance in this way, with what is
going forward in Parliament in respect to their condition 1 —
They have a great anxiety to get information on these points.
Supposing that those political distinctions were abolished,
do you think the minds of the well informed portion of the
Roman Catholic clergy and laity would thereupon become
perfectly satisfied ? — As Roman Catholics they would, certainly.
Do you think, with respect to the establishments of the
country, with respect to the existing Protestant church esta-
blishments, that that would not remain a cause of complaint
58 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
and grievance? — Not at all; the church establishment is a
temporal establishment, as connected with the constitution of
( . the country ; they have no jealousy on that score.
Do you sincerely believe that, generally speaking, in the
minds of the Roman Catholic clergy, there is not any dispo-
sition to disturb or dispossess the Protestant hierarchy? — I
do most sincerely believe it, and would make the most solemn
declaration to that effect ; I can undertake to say, that not a
single Catholic clergyman in Ireland will contradict what I
aver, that they, as Catholics, have no views whatsoever to
the disturbance of the establishment.
You think there may be upon the minds of many persons,
Protestants or Catholics, objections to the present mode in
which the church establishment is administered? — There are
many persons, Catholics and Protestants, who read books
upon political economy, and who derive information on these
points, not from Catholic writers, but from the most eminent
Protestant writers, and who entertain opinions respecting the
church establishment in Ireland, that it would be more con-
sistent with the public good if that establishment were re-
duced; but with no views whatever of substituting a Catho-
lic establishment, or giving any portion of the temporalities
of the Protestant church to the Catholic church.
There are political opinions upon that subject, which Ro-
man Catholics, as well as Protestants, entertain ? — In com-
mon with Protestants, but not at all connected with their
feelings as Catholics ; none of those opinions emanate from
any feelings or opinions connected with the Roman Catholic
religion.
If the Protestant establishment in Ireland is at present ex-
posed to any danger, do you think that it is from the part
of the Roman Catholics, or from the part of the political
economist, that that danger is to be apprehended ? — I con-
sider that the Roman Catholics, as such, have nothing at all
to do with the danger.
You understand, in giving your answers, that you are
speaking alone of the church establishment of the Protestant
religion in Ireland, as established by law, and particularly
. ^ « by the Act of Union ? — The Protestant religion, as established
\\\ by law in Ireland, which is the established religion of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
And as such, no Catholic clergyman has the slightest dis-
position to derange that establishment ?— -Not the slightest ;
nor the least ambition to acquire any portion of the property
of that establishment, nor to elevate themselves by its decline.
If the measure of emancipation was carried, would the Ca-
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 59
tholic clergy, or the Catholics in general, have any idea of
expecting that the Catholic bishops should be allowed to sit
in Parliament? — No, they have not the least; indeed the
idea would appear ridiculous ; I am convinced, that if there
were a revolution in Ireland, that would separate it from
this country to-morrow, the Irish people, though arranging
for themselves a system of temporal support for their reli-
gion, would have no representative establishment for the
Catholic clergy, nor raise them to any political honours ; nor
are they ambitious that their clergy should be raised at all in
rank higher than they are at present ; they wish to have them
merely religious ministers.
Are there many Protestant peasantry in the part of the
country where you reside ? — There are a good many.
Do you know what proportion they bear to the Roman Ca*
tholic peasantry? — I think the Protestant peasantry may be
as about one to fifteen in the country parts ; in the town part
they are more numerous.
You say those Protestants behave themselves with insolence
towards the Roman Catholics? — There is not that exaspe^
rating insolence in their manner, but in their conduct and
their manners ; they betray a consciousness of superiority,
which operates upon the Catholic minds.
You have also said that the Roman Catholics have an idea
that those lower classes of Protestants have the privilege of
committing crimes with impunity ? — Yes.
Does that arise from any instances of such impunity having
occurred? — Instances have occurred, and it always happens
that the Protestant peasant will have a much better chance of
eluding justice than the Catholic. It is an opinion upon the
minds of the Roman Catholics ; I cannot refer to any parti-
cular instances at present, but I have the general recollection
and impression upon my mind.
The impression prevails upon the minds of the lower or*
ders ? — Yes.
Have you ever used any means to disabuse them of that
impression ? — I have used means to disabuse them of the im-
pression, that there existed no fixed rule of law, which, if
duly administered, would render it unnecessary for the com-
mon people to resort to illegal means for the redress of griev-
ances. I have endeavoured to propagate the opinion among
the people, that such a rule existed, and to elevate their
minds, and to lead them to rely on the laws that are in force.
I have endeavoured to tell them that the Protestants are on a
common level with themselves ; but they conceive that the
60 REV. MICHAEt COLtlNS EXAMINED,
Protestant must have more favour, and has more favour with
those who are the ministers of justice than the Catholic.
They pay no attention to your explanations F — Those expla-
— ^ nations I do not give in public ; it is only in my private com-
munications with the people. In my public addresses, when
there is any danger or apprehension of disturbance, I dwell
upon the Christian duties, the principles of submission to the
existing laws. I also dwell upon the claims which the go-
vernment has upon the obedience of the people ; and I refer
them in like manner to the equity, and to the great kindness
that Britain has manifested to their country. I also endea-
vour to convince them, that they are very wrong in general
with respect to their Protestant landlords and neighbours ;
that many of them are practically kind to them, that they
ought to rely on them, and that they must bear patiently evils
that cannot be cured by violence, but may be cured by sub-
mission and Christian forbearance, on their part.
Your private exhortations, endeavouring to disabuse them
as to the opinions they entertain with respect to their Pro-
testant neighbours, do not produce an effect to counteract the
impression that they have? — No, they do not.
You stated that the Roman Catholic peasantry have a lively
recollection of the penal code, and the evils they suffered
from it? — They have.
They frequently refer to it ? — They mention it in the tra-
ditionary tales of the history of their country ; and those re-
collections are revived when any instance of abuse or violence
occurs.
Have you heard them allude frequently to the periods when
that code has been relaxed ? — Yes ; they contrast the present
days with what they were formerly.
Do they look with sentiments of equal gratitude to the re-
laxation of 1779, as with sentiments of abhorrence to the
previous state F — They do,
You have stated that you have heard instances mentioned in
which persecutions have been referred to by them ; do you
recollect instances in which they have mentioned the relaxa-
tions which have been made ? — I recollect instances where
they have compared their present condition with what they
were formerly ; and they ascribe this to the change of laws,
as they regard the Catholics.
Do they use the word Sassenagh in your part of the coun-
try?—Yes.
To what does that apply ? — It has departed from its origi-
nal meaning of « English" to " Protestant"
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED, 61
Is it used as a term of approval or reproach ? — It. is neither
one nor the other, the true meaning of it is Englishman ;
there is no Irish term for Protestant. They first knew a Pro-
testant in the person only of an Englishman, and therefore
they have identified it with him ; nor have they any Irish
term for Catholics, they say Catholicky in Irish ; but when
they contrast a Protestant with a Catholic, Erinech (Irishman)
is the term for Catholic.
Have you any Irish name for Papist ? — No term but Ca-
tholicke.
Is not that rather considered a term of reproach to call a
man a Papist, instead of calling him a Roman Catholic ? —
In the mouth of a Protestant it would be a term of reproach.
But not in the mouth of a Catholic ? — No ; then it is only
used in irony or jest.
Have they any term for an Englishman that has become a
Catholic ? — They say he was an Englishman, but he is now
become an Irishman ; but then in expressing those words,
they have not the original ideas annexed to the words Sasse-
nagh and Erinech ; in their meaning it is " Protestant" and
46 Catholic" they forget the original meaning of the words,,
and they only retain their present signification.
Do you conceive the present disabilities of Roman Catho-
lics affect them at all in any degree analogous to that in which
they were affected under the old penal laws ? — I believe they
produce a moral degradation and abasement in their minds ;
they debase them below their proper level, in their own
minds ; it is a demoralizing effect that is produced.
How is that effect produced? — They look upon themselves
as more or less aliens in their own country ; as a degraded
cast, having a privileged order above them ; for instance, a
Roman Catholic peasant knows that if he should have a son
or grandson, that by chance would acquire learning or riches,
let his talent and merits be ever so great, should he go to the
bar, he must stop short after a certain course ; he knows,
that though his son may be a lawyer or attorney, he cannot
become a judge, attorney-general, nor even a sub-sheriff of a
county. He knows that, as a Catholic, he could not have so
much interest with the Protestant sheriff, as a Protestant
has in nominating jurors. I will give a practical illustration
that occurred the other day, in appointing the quarter-ses-
sions grand jury at Bantry ; some Catholic persons of con-
siderable opulence there, felt themselves aggrieved because
they were excluded from the grand jury at that quarter-ses-
sions ; while Protestants, having no property but a half-
pay of forty pounds a year, were put upon it, a gentleman
62 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
worth three or four thousand pounds in cash was excluded, and
a half-pay officer (a Protestant) put upon the grand jury.
Did that occur in more than one instance ; was there more
than one person of very small property summoned to attend,
and more than one Catholic of property excluded ? — 1 under-
stand that the great proportion of the Protestants upon the
grand jury, were persons of comparatively small property.
Do you know the names of the Catholics that were ex-
cluded ? — A Mr. Connell was one of them. I will give another
instance which occurred the other day at Skibbereen ; I know
a young gentleman, a brewer, who makes by his brewery
from seven to eight hundred a year ; I heard it complained of
in his family that it was a hardship that he, being a Catholic,
should be excluded from the grand jury, while other persons
having very little property in the country were put on.
Were there any Roman Catholics upon the grand jury ? —
Certainly there were.
Of property, or without? — Some without property, and
some with it ; but in this place, there appeared to have been
particular interest.
Then the exclusion arose from the want of interest on the
part of those excluded, and not from their religious opinions?
— No ; but there is less regard cateris paribus under equal
circumstances paid to the Catholics than to Protestants, upon
those occasions.
Do you conceive that there was no Protestant of property
that had equal reason to complain of not having been sum-
moned ? — No, I believe not; I did not hear any complaint ;
all the respectable Protestants were summoned.
Do not you think it more likely that you should have heard
the Roman Catholic complain, than the Protestant complain?
-^-Yes, it is more likely ; but whether that was the effect of
religious feeling or not, the impression upon the Catholic
mind is, that it is the effect of religious feeling originating
in political distinctions, whether it is intended or otherwise,
it has the same effect.
If the due proportion of Roman Catholics were upon the
grand jury, how can you account for the omission of one or
two Roman Catholics being construed by the people into a
wish to exclude Roman Catholics ? — The number of Catholics
upon the grand jury was few indeed.
What is the proportion of persons of property in the county,
Roman Catholics and Protestants ? — If you abstract from the
property those who have the fee in the land, you will find more
acquired property among the Catholics than amongst the
Protestants >
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 63
Is that landed property, or chattel property ? — Partly landed
and partly chattel ; I speak of that particular part of the
country where I reside.
You have stated, that a feeling of degradation on the part of
the Catholics, and of insolence on the part of the Protestants,
is very much diminished where the number of Roman Catholics
greatly preponderate? — Yes ; the insolence on the part of the
Protestant is lessened.
Does the number of Catholics preponderate in your neigh-
bourhood? — They are in the proportion of ^one^o fifteen.' i-
Then how do you account for the operation of this feeling
of degradation on the one side, and insolence on the other,
since, according to your view, the number of Roman Catholics
does preponderate? — The insolence is not manifested by the
one party, because it would lead to personal exasperation,
which would perhaps end unfavourably ; but though this
feeling does not manifest itself on every occasion, yet it is
known to exist.
Then the Protestants in your neighbourhood do not show
this insolence? — No, they do not, as far as I know ; I have
heard a Catholic peasant talk, how he was told in joke, by his
Protestant neighbour, that they should ail become Protestants
in a short time, and that they should all be soon one way.
Then the Catholics in your neighbourhood do feel that
degradation to which you have alluded? — They do.
Notwithstanding their preponderance in number?— I said
that feeling was diminished by a preponderance of number.
You have told us of the joke of the Protestant peasant — has
not the Roman Catholic occasionally his jest in return ? — I
believe they may have their jests, but these jests are accom-
panied with a little acrimony, between joke and earnest ; a
perpetual bad feeling exists among them, and it is only the
more genial flow of natural good feeling, that counteracts, in a
greater or less degree, these divisions.
Arid those are counteracted where the number of Roman
Catholics predominates over the number of Protestants ?«-
They are counteracted in some measure.
You have stated, that if the measures which have been
submitted to Parliament for removing those disabilities were
adopted, you apprehend, that within twenty years, the feeling
of animosity would be altogether extinct? — Yes.
You stated, that the dissatisfaction of Roman Catholics
arises, not from a positive sense of injury, but from the cir-
cumstance that the higher order of the Roman Catholics do
not stand upon an equal footing with the higher order of Pro-
testants !*— I said, that in their relative situations the Catholic
64 KEV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
peasant did not feel himself upon an equality with the Pro-
testant peasant ; that in their several gradations they do not
feel themselves upon the same level.
You stated the reason to be, that if they entered into the
professions they could not attain the same eminence as the
Protestants ? — Yes ; these are some of the reasons.
So long as there was any obstacle to their attaining the
same eminence as the Protestants, do you think the dissatis-
faction would continue? — As long as those situations are not
attainable, to which the generality of the people, whether
Protestants or Catholics, might aspire, there would be some
degree of it ; but in proportion as you diminish the number
of restrictions in the penal code, you diminish the sense of
injury.
You stated, as an instance, that a young Roman Catholic
going to the bar, could not hope to attain the highest situa-
tion ? — I wish to call the attention of the Committee to what
appears to me to be the contrast between the feeling of the
Catholic peasant and the Protestant peasant, who have sons on
their outset in life ; the Protestant feels that his son may rise
to the highest degree that his abilities may enable him to do ;
under the existing laws, there is no impediment to his pro-
motion, no limit where he must stop short ; whilst the Catholic
feels he may go to a certain length, and must stop there.
So long as there is any limit, you conceive the dissatisfac-
tion will continue ? — I conceive there must be dissatisfaction,
because the parent has an interest in the well-being of his
offspring, and he feels for generations to come as much he
does for the present generation.
Do you think the people sympathize more with the Roman
Catholic gentry, or with the Roman Catholic priests? — I
think they sympathize more with the priests.
Do you not apprehend then, that any thing that puts the
Roman Catholic priesthood in a situation of degradation as
compared with another priesthood, would produce the same
feeling of dissatisfaction in the peasantry that you attribute to
the comparative difference in the situation of the gentry ? —
No ; the Roman Catholic gentry, and even the peasantry, are
upon principle hostile to the mixing of temporal wealth with
the condition of their clergy. They think their clergy will be
more upright and lealous when they are moderately supplied
with the means of support, than when they are surrounded
with riches and honours. They would not like to see their
priests too rich ; the people would say, they would become
like other priests.
Their respect for the priest is in proportion to his poverty ?
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 05
—In proportion to his conduct ; but they think his conduct
will be improved by removing from him the ordinary tempta-
tions that produce misconduct and corruption in the human
mind, which consist in the acquisition of inordinate wealth.
You believe the Roman Catholic peasantry reason in that
way ? — I know they do ; they are jealous when they see their
priests rich.
How do you account then for their remembering acutely
the degraded state in which their priests were in former
times ? — Because then their priests were persecuted ; they
were hunted from bog to bog, and from hedge to hedge.
They were obliged to celebrate the offices of religion in bogs
and mountains.
You say they are very anxious to read the newspapers in
that neighbourhood ? — They are.
What are the newspapers principally circulated in your
parish ? — The Southern Reporter and the Cork Chronicle,
when they can come at them ; but they cannot often come at
them.
You have mentioned that the Roman Catholic peasant feels,
that if he had a son whose talent led him to one of the learned
professions, to the bar for instance, that he feels disap-
pointed at his being liable to be stopped at a certain point ;
do you mean to say by that, that if any certain point were
reserved, they would not have a feeling of resentment about
it. Suppose withholding the great seal, the chancellorship
was thought necessary ? — That, I conceive, to be an extreme
case. I do not think, that if they got every thing else, that
would be reasonably required ; I do not conceive that they
would be discontented at being excluded from the great seal,
if it were deemed necessary to withhold it. In fact they do
not reason so acutely upon those points ; and if the number
of cases in which they are degraded, as compared with their
Protestant fellow subjects, were diminished, their dissatisfac-
tion would be likewise diminished.
Supposing the legislature of the country were disposed to
comply with the Catholic claims, but that a certain number
of the great offices of the state were reserved ; do you think
that would excite dissatisfaction ? — I am convinced it would
not,
You stated, that the impression upon your mind was, that
the law was not equally administered to Catholic and Pro-
testant ?— I did not say that was the impression upon my
mind in all cases ; I said that was the impression upon the
minds of the people.
You said that you could not recollect particular instances,
F
66 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
but there were instances? — There certainly were instances
where I had reason to think so, though I am not sufficiently
acquainted with the facts ; perhaps I have been myself de-
uded by the prejudice and distrust excited by the law.
In fact, do you conceive the case to be so ? — I do, in many
instances.
Then the impression upon your mind is, that the law is
not equally administered to Protestant and Catholic ? — It is
indeed.
By the magistrates in the country ? — I do not mean to say
that there are not a great proportion of the magistrates
that do act fairly : but I mean to say, that prejudices do exist
upon the minds of the magistrates, and misconceptions upon
the minds of the people ; they may both be excited by the
distinctions created by the laws.
Do you mean to apply that to the immediate neighbourhood
where you now reside, or generally to the county ? — I apply it
generally to the county. I would wish to say a word or two
in explanation of a question put on a former day, regarding
the state of Castletownroche ; I do not recollect distinctly the
words of the question that was put. I was asked whether
the same causes of disturbance regarding the administration
of justice existed in Castletownroche. I said, that I did not,
in Castletownroche, recollect any cause of complaint. I re-
peat the same answer still, as far as regards that part under
my immediate cognizance ; but I have heard of complaints
existing in that part of the county, of magistrates being
there who were unfit for their office ; in the neighbourhood of
Glanworth and Doneraile, and extending north-west towards
Newmarket.
Among those magistrates who have not administered jus-
tice as they ought to have done, were there any Catholics ? —
In my own part of the county they were Catholics ; but the
magistrates I have in my eye in that part of the county were
not Catholics.
Do the peasantry generally hold the Roman Catholic gen-
tlemen in more estimation than the Protestant gentlemen ? —
I do not think that they do ; they have naturally more confi-
dence in the Catholic than in the Protestant ; but they often
find as they think, that the Catholics are too anxious to cul-
tivate the favour of the Protestant gentlemen, and to retain
their good will, will often join the ascendency party against
themselves.
Has it come to your knowledge that the farmers prefer
holding their farms from Catholics to holding from Protes-
tants ?— They make no distinctions in that point, provided
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 67
they are well treated ; but they have equal cause to complain
both of the one and the other ; and they have equal causes of
satisfaction with respect to them both, that is, they find good
Catholic landlords and bad Catholic landlords, and good Pro-
testant landlords and bad Protestant landlords.
You are very well acquainted with the description of per-
sons who form usually the county of Cork grand juries ; do
not you conceive that a fair proportion of Catholic gentlemen
are usually invited upon the county grand jury ? — The county
of Cork is very large, and my knowledge of it is rather limited ;
I have known of two or three Roman Catholics being occa-
sionally summoned upon the grand jury ; and I have known
instances where they were altogether excluded. I conceive
that many Roman Catholics possessing a greater property
than some of the Protestants summoned on the grand jury
were excluded. The greatest number of Catholics summoned
at any one time never has, I believe, exceeded two or three.
How many Roman Catholic gentlemen of sufficient property
to serve on grand juries do you conceive there are in the
county of Cork ? — I am not prepared to answer that question ;
but it is the general impression upon my mind that there are
a good many.
When those gentlemen were summoned upon the grand
jury, were there not a considerable number of Protestants of
considerable property not summoned to attend the grand
jury? — I believe there were a great number of Protes-
tants possessing more property than the two Catholics,
who were not summoned, and more than it would be neces-
sary to summon ; but then I say there were many of less pro-
perty than the Catholics upon the grand jury, and Protestants
also of greater property excluded.
Have you ever heard of the high sheriff being obliged to
call in gentlemen to serve on grand juries, two or three per-
haps every morning, in consequence of disappointments from
gentlemen who were put on it ? — I am not at all conversant
with the subject ; I am so far removed from those who ma-
nage these things.
Have you riot heard in the county of Cork, the practice is
to invite gentlemen to attend the grand jury ; and that they
frequently decline it ? — I may have heard it.
May it not have been the case with regard to Roman Catho-
lic gentlemen ? — I know there were several Catholics of much
more property than some Protestants upon the jury excluded
from it.
Can you mention the names of the Catholic gentlemen who
are qualified to sit upon grand juries in your opinion ? — I
F 2
68 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
really would not undertake to say ; 1 never turned my atten-
tion to that point ; there is a Mr. Roche of Ahaddir, who has
got a good property ; I do not know whether he is on the
grand jury.
That is a very lately acquired property ? — There are very
few Roman Catholics in the county of Cork that have had an
hereditary patrimonial property ; with the exception of two
or three, there is Mr. Rochfort, he lives near Kinsale at Gar-
ristown, two brothers, Coppingers, Mr. Barry of Lamelara,
Mr. Deecy of Clonakiity, and Mr. Goold. There have been
Protestants appointed upon the grand jury that have not, as I
have heard, three thousand a year, nor one thousand a year,
nor five hundred a year.
With respect to Mr. Rochfort, in the first place, does not he
frequently serve upon grand juries ? — I have seen his name
upon grand juries.
Mr. Coppinger, of Barryscourt, frequently attends ? — I have
seen his name.
Mr. Barry, of Lamelara, have you seen his name upon
grand juries ? — Yes, I have.
Mr. Roche, of Ahaddir, he is a person of very lately ac-
-^- quired property ; a man who had been very low in life ?— I do
not know what his situation in life formerly was.
Did you ever hear the fact, that he had been a shoemaker ?
— I did.
When did he acquire his property? — During the war.
Are you acquainted that it is more a funded than a landed
property ?— I believe he has got a landed estate.
Very small, compared to his funded property ?— -Yes.
Mr. Deecey is a person of lately acquired property ?— Yes;
he is a man of excellent education, and enjoys an estate, pur-
chased by his father, I think, of two thousand a year.
Has he never been summoned to attend grand juries ? — .
Never.
Does Mr. Deecy rank, in fact, with the gentlemen of the
county who usually attend grand juries ? — I do not know. He
would be considered a gentleman, and no one can deny he is a
gentleman, both in education, in manners, and in every
other reasonable qualification ; he is received in society as a
gentleman.
Will you be so good as to name those Roman Catholic gen-
tleman of the county of Cork, whom, like Mr. Deecy, you
conceive to be qualified in point of character, and in point of
property, to sit on the grand jury, who are excluded from
the grand jury ?— I am not prepared to name any others, be-
cause I really am not acquainted with them.
KEV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 69
Then why are you under the impression, that the Roman
Catholic property in the county of Cork is not fairly repre-
sented on the grand jury ? — I did not state that I was under
any such impression ; the question was put to me, and it did
not seem to me to arise from any thing I had stated before.
Then you have no reason to believe, that in the selection of
the grand jury in the county cf Cork, the Roman Catholic
property is not fairly represented on the grand jury in that
county ? — There is more property diffused amongst the Roman
Catholics than we are aware of, and than is represented
there.
The question does not refer to the merchants of the city of
Cork, or the property acquired in trade; the question refers
to that property that is generally represented upon the grand
jury, landed property? — There is more property diffused
among the Catholics than is represented there ; because, if
you have the Catholics represented in proportion to the num-
bers, you will find the number of Roman Catholics having
moderate property much greater than is supposed to be.
There are Protestants upon the grand jury that have consi-
derably less property than Catholics who are excluded ; and,
as Catholics ought to be represented in proportion to their
number arid property, I would say they are not adequately
represented there.
According to the principles upon which grand juries are
selected in the county of Cork, and the other counties in Ire-
land, is not a fair selection of Roman Catholics made ? — The
whole number of Roman Catholics upon the grand jury is
only as three to twenty-three ; I will not admit that the Ca-
tholic property is to the Protestant property in the county of
Cork, only as three to twenty-three.
You have been asked, as to the number of Roman Catholic
gentry resident in the county, whom you conceive to be com-
petent to act as grand jurors, how many should you think ? —
I could name a great number of gentlemen of moderate pro-
perties, I have only named four or five ; if I got an hour to
consider I could collect a great many ; but I never have turned
my mind to these points ; I am not prepared, upon the emer-
gency of the moment to state a great many.
When you say you will not admit the property of the Ca-
tholics to be as three to twenty-three, do you not admit that
the proportion of Protestant gentlemen, qualified to sit on
grand juries, exceeds twenty-three to three ? — I can neither
admit nor deny that.
Did you ever observe that on the list of the county of Cork
grand jury, the eldest sons of gentlemen, who perhaps are too
70 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
old to attend themselves, and the brothers of gentlemen who
cannot conveniently attend themselves, are frequently sent as
representatives of the head of the family and the property ? —
Yes ; and the agents too sometimes ; there is a Roman Ca-
tholic gentleman, whom I may name, the agent of a great
property, Mr. Leahy, he was never summoned so far as I
heard.
He served in the city grand jury ? — Yes ; but I never heard
of his serving upon the county grand jury.
Lord Cork's property lies in the city ? — And a great deal in
the county.
Mr. Leahy is the agent of Lord Cork ? — He is.
Are you not aware that in the county of Cork, and other
counties adjoining, it is the practice not to allow agents to
represent the proprietors of soil upon grand juries ? — I
thought from what Lord Ennismore said, that it was done.
In a former part of your examination, you stated cases
that happened at Bantry and Skibbereen, in which Protes-
tants of very small property had been put upon grand juries,
when Catholics of much larger property had not been put
upon grand juries, what grand juries were those you alluded
to, and were they sessional or assize ? — Quarter sessions.
Do you consider yourself competent, from your knowledge
of the general state of the county of Cork, to give satisfactory
information to the Committee, with respect to the returns of
the grand juries ? — No ; I do not consider myself competent
to speak on that at present
You stated in a former part of your examination, that you
were of opinion that if the penal code was repealed, all remem-
brances of it would be obliterated in the course of ten or
twenty years, is it not your opinion that the mere repeal of
that code would remove at once the cause of the evils that
now exist in Ireland, in respect to Catholic disabilities ? — I
know it would remove at once the cause.
Then you do not mean to say, that it would take so long a
period of time before a considerable effect would take place in
improving the state of the country ? — No ; I should think the
operation would commence immediately ; it may be slow.
Will you explain in what way you think it would come into
operation, and why so long a time would be necessary to give
it full effect ? — In the first place, the Roman Catholics would
feel that they were raised from the humble state in which
they were, and would have more confidence in the laws ; they
would feel that they were placed upon a level with their Pro-
testant fellow-subjects; they would feel that they had no
longer a just cause of complaint of the system.
REV. MICHA.EL COLLINS EXAMINED. 71
Do you conceive that the Protestants would not imme-
diately abstain from that line of conduct, which at present
gives offence to Catholics ? — I should hope they would ; they
could have no motive for continuing it.
Would not it take some time altogether to obliterate that
feeling ? — It might take some time undoubtedly ; the Pro-
testant belonging to a certain party which was very obnoxious
in the country, might feel some exasperation for a long time
after the penal code ceased.
When you speak of the effect of the penal code, in debasing
the mind of the lower orders, do you mean to say, that it pro-
duces a want of self-respect ? — I do.
Does it diminish that feeling which is natural to every one,
to better his condition ? — Certainly it does.
In your reading upon subjects of political economy, have
you not found it stated that that feeling is the great principle
of all improvement of the lower classes of people ? — Undoubt-
edly, they would not feel themselves so debased and degraded
as they are at present, if the penal law was repealed.
Is not the want of that feeling necessarily attended with a
great obstruction in the way of the improvement of the lower
orders, for want of a general disposition amongst them to
acquire comforts and to improve their habits of life, with
regard to food and all the comforts and conveniencies
of life? — There is a great moral debasement and degra-
dation arising from it, which renders them insincere, •
crafty, cringing, flattering, and disposing them to make
professions that they do not feel ; and I think they are
more or less careless about the improvement of their
condition.
Then the peasantry living under such circumstances, if the
means of bettering their condition was placed before them,
would they so readily make use of them, or so certainly adopt
them, as if the political institutions of the country placed
them upon a better footing ? — If the question means whether
they would not be disposed to eat better food, and wear better
clothes than at present, I should say they would ; but, as to
the moral means of improving their condition, I do not think
they would avail themselves of them.
Supposing they were able to earn somewhat better wages,
would they be more disposed to increase their comforts, or to
expend them in gratifying their passions? — I think that at
present, among the many other causes of the demoralization
of the people, is the facility with which they can acquire the
means of gratifying their passions, the cheapness of whiskey; ,
72 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
and I do think, that whilst that cause exists, they will be dis-
posed to drink too much. '
Considering only their acquiring the means of improving
their condition, circumstanced as you describe them to be with
respect to their feelings, and their debasement of mind and
want of self-respect, do you not conceive that those means
would not be applied to improving their comforts, but that
they would be applied rather in gratifying their passions ? — I
do ; they would be applied in gratifying their passions.
Have you considered, generally, the effect of political insti-
tutions in keeping a people in a distressed and very low state
of existence, and in preventing them from making progress to
place themselves in an improved condition, when the means
of so doing has been afforded them 1 — I think people under an
improved state of political arrangement, have a greater inte-
rest in their future comfort, and in the comfort of their off-
spring, than they have under a degraded state.
Have you ever considered and reflected upon the effect of
the British laws, in placing the lower orders of the people of
England in their present happy and flourishing condition? — I
have often ascribed it to the consciousness that the British
people enjoy, of the real liberties and equality that exists
among them.
Is it not matter of history, that the condition of the lower
orders of the people in every country, mainly depends upon
the political institutions they live under ? — I think it is a sort
of political maxim.
That in proportion as they are protected by the laws, and
enjoy civil liberty, and are respected by the upper orders, and
have proper feelings of respect for themselves, that they will
use the best opportunities they acquire of improving their
condition, by obtaining comforts, instead of giving way to the
impulse of their passions ? — I do.
You have stated it to be your opinion, supposing the re-
maining disabilities under which the Roman Catholics la-
bour, were removed, there would be no 'cause of animosity
between Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland ? — Yes.
Was not a great change made in the condition of the Ro-
man Catholics in Ireland, by the Act of 1793 ?— Yes.
Have the feelings of animosity between the Protestants and
Roman Catholics diminished since that period ? — They have
diminished in some places, and increased in others.
Do you think they have diminished in proportion to the
relaxation of the laws ? — No ; in many places they have been
diminished to such a degree only, as left the Catholics much
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 73
more sensible of the remaining humiliation, whilst the party
that enjoyed the monopoly of power, felt exasperated at les-
sening this monopoly, and seemed anxious to preserve the re-
mainder, by insulting and persecuting the Catholics.
Then why should the removal of the remaining disabili-
ties tend to lessen that exasperation of which you have last
spoken? — Because on the one hand, there could be no motive
or means for persecution, the remaining monopoly having
ceased, and on the other hand, the natural operation of the
human mind would be to forget past sufferings.
You do not propose any thing more than that the Roman
Catholics should be qualified to get power? — Nothing more.
Might not the Protestant still have the means of retaining
possession of that power? — I do not think he could, because
the wisdom of government would frustrate that.
You have drawn a comparison between the number of Ro-
man Catholics in Cork, who are eligible to serve upon grand
juries, and the number who are actually appointed to them ;
do not you think the same comparison might be instituted, as
to the actual appointment to offices ; supposing the Roman
Catholics were declared eligible to certain offices, do not you
think the same comparison would be drawn, with respect to
the actual appointments to office? — It would be entirely with
the government to make the appointments, and if they were
not fairly administered, discontent would be excited ; but I
presume they would be fairly administered.
Do not you think, that as much discontent would exist, if
being eligible, they were not actually appointed, as now arises
from their being actually ineligible? — No, I do not think so;
because the exclusion by law is a sort of stigma affixed upon
the front of every Roman Catholic ; he is excluded at present,
because he is excluded by law ; but being legally eligible, he
could have no just cause of complaint ; if some Catholics were
not appointed, it might be referred to individual incapacity, or
other reasonable grounds.
The cause of complaint is not the mere loss of emolument
or power of office, but the distinction which the irieligibility for
office creates, between a person qualified to hold it, and a
person disqualified? — Yes; it is partly both ; but principally
the unjust distinction which the law creates between Protest-
ant and Catholic.
Then why do you think the Roman Catholic would be per-
fectly satisfied with a state of law which excluded him from
the great offices of the state ; in answer to a question, you
said, that "if the Roman Catholic was admitted into certain
offices, he would not be dissatisfied if he were not admitted
74 REV. MfCHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
into all ;" supposing those few great political offices from
which the Roman Catholic remains excluded, had actually the
appointment to all the remainder, do not you think that ex-
clusion would still imply some distrust in the Roman Catho-
lic?— No, I do not think it would ; because the Roman Ca-
tholic would be reconciled to it from the great state necessity
that would induce it.
What is the state motive ? — With regard to the empire ge-
nerally ; the act would be founded upon the general interests
of the empire.
In what way do you think the interest of the empire would
require the exclusion of Roman Catholics from certain great
state offices ? — Because the people of the empire might not be
satisfied, nor might deem it compatible with the constitution,
as it exists, that Roman Catholics should be admitted into
these high offices of the state. If that was the general feel-
ing of the people, the Catholics would be satisfied to be ex-
cluded from those offices.
Would the Roman Catholics admit that the impression of
the people of England was a just one ? — I am not prepared to
say that they would admit that it was a just one, but the peo-
ple of England having that impression upon their minds, the
Catholics would be satisfied.
Supposing that the people of England had a general im-
pression that it was for the general interest of the country,
that they should continue to labour under their present dis-
abilities, would the Roman Catholics still remain satisfied ? —
No, for this reason ; that in their minds those disabilities are
so palpably and obviously contrary to the first principles of
justice and policy, that they would not believe that the people
of England could think it necessary, for the general interests,
to continue them, they would not be satisfied.
Why should not the Roman Catholic contend for admission
to all offices, however high the trust? — Because, under the
present constitution of the empire, the attainment of that
does not appear possible ; such a change might produce a
convulsion in the empire, and therefore the Roman Catholic,
being under the influence of moral motives, would be satisfied
with a state of things which it would be morally impossible
to change. Speaking metaphysically, he may be discontented,
but for all practical purposes, as a person under the influence
of moral impressions, he should be content and satisfied, rather
than risk a convulsion in the state, because the evil of sub-
mission to that would be so very little, compared with the
evil of disturbance, that he would rather submit.
He would be content with eligibility to office, satisfied that
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 75
those offices, which have the appointment to all other subor-
dinate ones, namely, the high offices of the state, should
remain in the hands of Protestants ? — I do not say all the
high offices of the state. I can point to offices of the state
that I think they might be admitted to. The King is essen-
tially a Protestant by the constitution of the country, and as
the chancellor is supposed to be the keeper of the King's con-
science, he must be equally a Protestant ; but with the ex-
ception of the King and the chancellor, I do not see any other
office to which they might not be admitted.
What do you think of the office of the Lord Lieutenant ?—
I think he might be a Catholic.
Administering the whole of the church property of Ireland?
— If he happened to be a Roman Catholic, he might delegate
to a Protestant chancellor the administration of church pa-
tronage.
And the same with the chief secretary of the Lord Lieute-
nant ; you would think it proper to provide, that in case the
chief secretary should be a Roman Catholic, that another
officer should exercise the church patronage ? — Yes, on the
same principle as Roman Catholic priests protest against the
interference of Protestants in the appointment of Catholics
to the cure of souls ; on the same principle we would disclaim
any interference in the appointment of Protestants for the
cure of souls.
Do you think when the disabilities were removed, that the
Roman Catholics, as a body, would acquiesce in the present
ettlement of church property ? — I am satisfied they would.
In practice, have you found that there is dissatisfaction ex-
cited in consequence of the Catholics not obtaining the bene-
fits conferred by the Acts of 1793, with respect to admission
to the offices which they are entitled to hold under that Act?
• — Yes, considerable dissatisfaction is entertained.
To what do you attribute their not being admitted to those
offices in any degree whatsoever, compared with the Protest-
ants, arid with the number of Catholics who are capable of
holding those offices ?— To the exclusive predominance of that
party in Ireland, hostile to Roman Catholics.
Do you believe that the reservation of those offices, to which
Roman Catholics are at present not capable of being admitted,
does contribute in fact to prevent a fair admission to those
offices, which they are qualified to hold under the Act of 1793 ?
— I do believe so.
The Catholics are aware, that very considerable concessions
were granted by the Act of 1793 ?— -They are.
That they were rendered eligible to a certain number of
76 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
offices by that Act ? — They are ; but I think a great propor-
tion of the Catholic populace are not aware of the actual
extent to which the penal code has been repealed; for in-
stance, they are not generally aware of the late Act respecting
their admission to offices in the army, because those things
have been done by piecemeal.
Is there a full confidence among the Catholics in the inten-
tion with which these Acts were passed, with respect to the
conferring favours upon them? — I think that confidence is
very much lessened by the events that have occurred since ;
they think that persons have got into power, who were hostile
to them, who have endeavoured to impede the good effect of
that Act of conciliation and justice as much as possible, and
have defeated the benefits, with respect to Catholics, that
might be derived from it.
In fact, it is riot the general opinion, that the intention of
the legislature has been defeated? — It is.
Have you any reason to doubt, that the Act which admitted
the Roman Catholics into all ranks of the army and navy, has
been fairly acted upon ? — I have no opinion upon that subject,
either way.
You have no reason to doubt it ? — I have no reason to
doubt it.
And yet the Roman Catholics are not aware of the exist-
ence of that Act ? — A great proportion of the populace are
not aware of it.
Although they are become eligible to hold any office in the
army, yet, in point of fact, it has so little affected their situ-
ation, that they are not aware of their eligibility ?-^-It is'
since the peace that that Act passed ; if there was a war they
would be aware of it, but there has been no opportunity for
their being made aware of it.
Was not that Act passed without much public discussion ?
— It was ; I thought it was introduced in a clause in the Mu-
tiny Bill, till I heard from a gentleman, the other day, that
it was a special Act.
Does the circumstance of no Catholic having been ap-
pointed to the assistant-barrister's office, produce much dis-
satisfaction ? — It does.
Is it a matter of common observation, that very few Ca-
tholics have been appointed to offices since the year 1793 ?-^
It is ; for instance, no Catholics have been admitted into the
corporation of Dublin since that, very few Catholics have
been appointed into high situations in the revenue, and no
appointments have been made to the office of assistant bar-
rister, the commission of bankruptcy, and other situations.
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 77
What do you call high situations in the revenue ? — Such as
commissioners and collectors ; there was one commissioner
and only one collector a Catholic, they were appointed, I
heard, under the administration of the Duke of Bedford.
You are of opinion, that supposing the political distinc-
tions were removed, there would be no cause of animosity
between Protestants and Roman Catholics remaining ? — I am.
Do you believe in the miracles which have been performed?
— -As a Roman Catholic, I am at perfect liberty to believe or
disbelieve.
Do you actually believe ? — I believe in some, and in others
I disbelieve.
You believe there has been of late a decided manifestation
of God's favour to the Roman Catholic church ? — I think that,
under the pressure of temporal persecution, Almighty God
has supported and encouraged His church in Ireland.
Do you not think that the circumstances under which those
miracles were, in your opinion, performed, show a decided
manifestation of God's favour towards the Roman Catholic
church ? — It might be a manifestation of favour for the pur-
pose of confirming the wavering in their faith ; many Catho-
lics thought that they might be deserted by the Providence of
Almighty God ; they do not doubt that it was a manifestation
of divine favour, to confirm them in their faith.
Do not you think that the result of those miracles must be
a decided impression on the part of the educated and unedu-
cated of the Roman Catholic community, that God's favour
was manifested in behalf of the Roman Catholic church ? — To
such of the Roman Catholics as believe it has that effect, to
such as do not believe, and there are a great many of them,
both amongst the ecclesiastics and the laity, it has no effect.
Do the lower orders, who have heard of them, generally be-
lieve in them ? — The lower orders generally believe ; but they
have never been proposed as matter of faith, nor have they
been proposed in that authentic way, which would render it
imperative upon Roman Catholics to believe.
Still, practically, there is a general belief in them amongst
all classes who have heard of them ? — I cannot say amongst
all classes ; for instance, in my part of the county, at least a
hundred and twenty miles from the place where they were ope-
rated, there is not a general belief, nor even a knowledge of
the facts. I heard, that in Leinster it is very general, and
that confidence in God's Providence is in proportion. I read
the vouchers published by Doctor Doyle and others, and I
must own I thought I saw a strong testimony in those vouch-
ers ; I could not account how they occurred.
78 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
Are you aware of the fact, that any Roman Catholic bishops
were appointed to examine the evidence, and to state their
opinions upon the evidence?— I am aware of the fact, that
Doctor Doyle did examine, and that Doctor Murray did exa-
mine ; but I know they did it of themselves, without any ap-
pointment.
Did not the two bishops, who undertook to examine into
the credibility of those miracles, express publicly their opinion
that such miracles were actually performed ? — They did.
Did you ever hear of any other bishops who dissented from
them, as to the degree of credibility which was to be attached
to them ? — I have not heard of other bishops, but I should not
be surprised if there were others.
Have you heard that any bishop has publicly expressed a
dissent from those two Roman Catholic bishops ? — It would
not be expedient for a bishop to express his dissent, as to
facts publicly affirmed, if he had not examined into them ;
neither is he called upon to approve of alleged facts that he
has not had an opportunity of examining and ascertaining.
If the only men who examined the facts stated a decided
opinion that the miracles were performed, and no other
bishops dissented from that opinion, nor instituted any in-
quiry for the purpose of enabling them to form an opinion for
themselves, do not you think that the published opinion of the
two bishops who did examine, must tend to create an uni-
versal impression on behalf of those who read their opinion,
that the miracles were actually performed ? — Yes ; it carried
motives of probability and credibility with it, but it carried
no motives that rendered it imperative upon the Catholics to
believe.
But the tendency must be to produce a general belief; the
character of the parties and their situation would induce a
general confidence in their belief ? — Yes, it would.
Then the Committee understand you to say, the Roman Ca-
tholic population are of opinion that the efficiency of the
priesthood is best secured by the circumstance of their not
being in possession of large emoluments ? — Certainly.
If that is their opinion with respect to their own priest-
hood, is it also with respect to the priesthood of other reli-
gious persuasions ? — They have no interest in the priesthood
of other religious persuasions.
Have they no interest with regard to the payment of tithes ?
— They would pay their tithes as a matter enjoined by law ;
but they have no interest in the purity of character and con-
duct of the priesthood of other denominations.
The question does not refer to purity of character, but to
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 79
temporal emoluments, have not they a direct interest in less-
ening the emoluments of another church ? — The Roman Ca-
tholics have no interest in lessening the emoluments of the
established church more than they have in lessening the quan-
tum of rent which they pay to their landlord.
They are equally satisfied to pay the tithe to the Protestant
clergyman as they are to pay rent to the landlord ? — No, I do
not think they are.
Why are they not ? — In the first place, the tithe is imposed
as a tax, the rent is a matter of convention between the land-
lord and the tenant ; the rent is so much money paid for a
quantity of land, like paying for the use of a machine, and
paid by agreement ; and the tithe is paid not for the rent of
the land, it is paid not only out of the machine, but the capi-
tal and labour vested in it.
There is nothing in the circumstance of its being paid to
the minister of another church that makes it objectionable to
the Roman Catholic peasantry ? — They would not pay it to
their own church.
They do not object to the payment of tithes as a due to the
Protestant clergyman ? — Not as a due to the Protestant cler-
gyman ; but they would wish to get rid of it, in common with
many Protestants.
Just in the same way that they would wish to get rid of
their rent ? — In the same way that many Protestants would
wish to get rid of the tithes ; in the first place, they look
upon the tithes as an impost placed upon the public, for the
upholding of a corporate establishment ; they look upon them
as the public property of the state ; and many Catholics, in
conjunction with many Protestants, think, that the state might
appropriate a great part of that property to more useful pur-
poses, and in a more effectual manner, than at present ; but,
as Catholics, they have no feeling with respect to the con-
version of tithe into a means of support for their own priest-
hood ; neither do they object to it as Catholics, but as think- -
ing men.
You are speaking of the feelings of the peasantry ? — No ;
of the gentry, and intelligent Catholics and Protestants.
Will you state what the feeling of the peasantry is with
respect to the payment of tithe ? — They look upon it as a
hardship, as it takes a tenth part, and sometimes more, of
the value of the produce of the land ; and on account of its
variableness and uncertainty, and their inability to pay it.
They do not object to it as a payment made to the minister
of another church ? — They do not object to it as a payment
80 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
made to the minister of another church, as contrasting that
minister with the minister of their own church.
They would rather prefer the payment of dues to the
minister of their own church, in order to secure his compara-
tive poverty, than that he should be paid out of the tithes ? —
No. I do not say that ; if it were the will of the legislature
that they should be relieved from what they pay at present to
the ministers of their own church, by paying part of the tithes
to them, I believe they would have no objection ; but if they
were allowed to get rid of tithe altogether, and left at liberty
to give or withhold a part of it from the ministers of their
own church, they would withhold it.
In order to put it into their own pockets ? — To get rid of the
burden of it.
Do not you think that the universal impression among the
population is this, that if tithe is to be continued, it is
more just that it should be paid to Roman Catholics than to
Protestants ? — I do not think so.
In point of fact, if they are to pay it, they have not the least
objection to pay it to the Protestant clergy ? — It is altogether
matter of indifference to them, if they are obliged to pay it, to
whom they pay it ; they certainly would wish to be relieved of
part of the burden of paying their own priests. At the same
time I do think, that if the choice was given them, and that
they were told, you must pay tithe to somebody, you must
choose between the Catholic and the Protestant clergy, they
would choose their own priests ; but if they were told, you
shall get rid of tithes, and you have in your power to give or
withhold it to your own priests, they would withhold it.
A large body of Roman Catholics have lately expressed an
opinion, in a petition to the House of Commons, that in order
to ensure permanent peace in Ireland, first of all, that the
political disabilities must be removed ; but also that the pre-
sent church establishment of Ireland must be reformed, and
its temporalities reduced, and that the corporations must be
disfranchised ; that is a petition which has lately proceeded,
not from the Roman Catholic Association, but encouraged by
them ; it comes at their instigation ; do you concur in that
petition or not? — I deem it very inexpedient and improper in
the Catholic Association to mix up extraneous matter with
what ought to be the single object of their labours, the repeal
of the penal code.
Why improper ? — Because as Catholics, they ought not to
come forward ; they may come forward in conjunction with
Protestants, but they ought not to mix up that question with
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 81
their character as a Catholic association ; I thought it was
very improper.
Do not you think it was perfectly open to them, and per-
fectly fair, if they thought, that in order to insure the per-
manent peace of Ireland, something more was necessary than
to remove the political disabilities; was not it perfectly fair
and candid in them to state it? — To state it as individuals in
connexion with other religious denominations would be per-
fectly fair, but to state it as coming from a Catholic body, and
as speaking the opinions of the Catholics as such, I thought
unfair, and not justifiable.
Do you agree with them as to the main fact ; do you think,
that in order to insure the permanent peace of Ireland, that
those other measures are necessary ; namely, the reduction of
the temporalities of the present church establishment, and the
disfranchisement of the corporations ; or do you think they
are not ? — I should not be inclined to think so ; but I have not
made up my mind upon that point.
Then how do you reconcile that last opinion with the former
one, that if political disabilities were removed, there would
cease to exist any cause of animosity ? — Because then it would
not be between Catholic and Protestant, but between the
people and the clergy.
Would not the question of reduction of the temporalities of
the church, be a question between Protestants and Roman
Catholics? — No ; it would be as much a question between the
Protestant clergy and the Protestant laity, between Protestant
and Protestant, as between Catholic and Protestant ; in fact,
the word Catholic or Protestant would not intervene at all.
You are then of opinion, as far as you can form a judgment
upon it, that although, if the political distinctions were re-
moved, there would be no cause of animosity between Pro-
testants and Catholics, yet, that in order to secure the per-
manent tranquillity of Ireland, some more permanent reform
must be made ? — I would incline to think, that it would con-
duce to the amelioration of the country, but I do not think it
would be necessary to the tranquillization of the country ; I
would rather wish that those reductions -were made, because I
think the country would be the better for it ; but I say that
ns a person speaking, not as a Roman Catholic, but from my
own reflections, and from reading the Edinburgh Review, and "
other Essays on Political Economy.
Do you think that that petition which has been referred to,
speaks the opinion of Roman Catholics generally ?— 'There are
many that coincide with it, and many that do not.
82 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
Will those that do not coincide with it express their dissent
in any way ?— -No ; I think there are many Catholics that dis-
approve of the conduct of the Association in bringing forward
that question, as connected with the Catholic cause, but who
do not feel themselves called on to express their dissent.
This petition is not the petition of the Association ; it is a
petition of the undersigned Catholics ; it does not profess to be
the petition of the Association ? — As connected with Catholic
disabilities, or arising from Catholic feeling, I do not approve
of the petition at all ; it does not speak the sense of the
people.
Do you think it likely that those whose sense it does not
speak will state explicitly how far they agree or disagree with
it; if it is improper and unjust, according to your opinion,
that the petition should be presented, do not you think it
would be becoming in others, who entirely dissent from it, if
they were to disavow it? — I should think the expression of
such a dissent would be misconstrued into a disavowal of the
sentiments entertained not as Catholics, but as Irishmen
generally, or as inhabitants of the country.
As Irishmen generally, they entertain those opinions, but
as Roman Catholics, they do not think it becoming in them,
when they are petitioning for a relief from disabilities, to
state those opinions to the legislature? — I do not think they
are at all connected with their grievances as Catholics ; many
of them may join with Protestants in entertaining that opinion,
but I do not conceive they are more called upon to disavow
those sentiments than Protestants are.
As to the dissolution of the Union, what do you think is the
general impression with respect to that, which has been stated
by some Roman Catholics to be essential to the restoration of
tranquillity ? — As to the dissolution of the Union, I thought it
one of the most mischievous, and false I may say, political
propositions that could be propounded. For my part, I do
think that the well being of Ireland is intimately and inse-
parably connected with England ; and I believe that it is the
general feeling throughout Ireland, that the project of dis-
solution is both visionary and mischievous.
You entirely dissent from that proposition? — I do most
cordially. I do riot see what good can arise from the separa-
ration of the countries ; on the contrary, I can fancy the
greatest evil to our unfortunate country from such an event.
The question does not refer to the actual separation of the
countries, but the restoration of such a state of things as
existed previously to the Union ?— I do not think that the
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 83
condition of Ireland would be better, in case of such a resto-
ration. I felt, I must own, very much grieved, when I saw
sentiments to that effect expressed by some of the leaders of
the cause.
You thought it would be mischievous to the cause of the
Roman Catholics ? — No ; I thought that the repeal of the
Union would be attended with great mischief to the country.
Do you think that is the feeling of the Roman Catholics ge-
nerally ? — I do.
Then why do they not disavow what is expressed by the
Association, which affects to speak in their name ? — I was not
aware that the Association had expressed those sentiments.
Have not a great many Protestants expressed opinions of
the expediency of reforming the church, and reducing the
temporalities of the church in Ireland ? — I have under-
stood so.
Have there not been a large body of members of Parliament
voting for such a measure ? — Certainly.
May not, in your opinion, a considerable reformation take
place in the administration of the Protestant church, without
at all affecting the security of its establishment ? — I think so.
Might not, also, the temporalities of that church be placed
under a different distribution without affecting the security of
the Protestant religion ? — I think they might.
Is it not possible, that such a reformation, and such a dis-
tribution, might essentially serve the cause of the Protestant
religion ? — I think it might.
In any views you take, or the Catholics generally take of
those subjects, you take them as common subjects in the
country, in common with the Protestants ? — Certainly.
If Catholics have expressed opinions that more extensive
reforms are wanting in Ireland, besides the repeal of the penal
code, are there not abuses with respect to magistrates, grand
juries, and other public affairs, to which that opinion, as to
extensive reform, may be applied ? — There are.
If the effect of the new tithe laws shall ultimately be to
make the payment of the tithe the business of the landlords,
so that the Catholic occupiers of the land may be relieved from
tithe, will they concern themselves much about the benefit the
Protestant clergy will derive from the new tax that will be
paid in lieu of tithe?— I believe the greater part of those who
occupy land, if they were relieved from the pressure of tithe,
would not care who received it, if the tithe was paid by the
landlord arcl not by the occupier.
Then all soreness of feeling, and all hostility that may exist
in the minds of Catholics with respect to tithes, would be
84 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
done away by changing the manner of payment, making that
payment either a payment by the landlords or provided by sub-
stituting land in place of tithes? — I do not see if the burden was
placed upon the landlords, that it would remove all cause of
complaint on the part of the occupiers with regard to tithe ;
but undoubtedly if land was substituted, all cause of complaint
would be removed.
Are you not aware, that the Tithe Act provides, that in all
new leases made in a parish, where it is brought into opera-
tion, that the tithe is to be paid by the landlord ? — It makes
such a provision ; but how can you prevent the landlords from
throwing the tithe upon the tenant ?
If the effect of the change shall be, that it shall not throw
it upon the tenants, but that it shall become a tax upon land
purely, and that the reservation of rent to be paid by the
tenant shall be a fixed sum, having no connexion with the
tithe, will he not, under those circumstances, be completely
relieved ? — If the tithe is absorbed in the rent, and the rent
not increased beyond the true value of land., he will be com-
pletely relieved in that case.
Will riot the tithe so payable by the landlord, be in the
nature of a tax on rent, and therefore wholly payable by the
landlord, and by no means possible to be paid by the tenant ?
— If the thing could be so contrived that the tithe must be
paid by the landlord without falling on the tenant, the tenant
can have no cause of complaint.
Do you think it is possible that can be done ? — I think it
very difficult.
Supposing the burden of the tithe were in any shape to be
thrown upon the landlord, would not then the tenant have to
pay him an additional rent ? — If the tenant's lease were pre-
vious to the enactment of such a law, the tithe would fall
upon the landlord during the lease ; but at the expiration of
the lease, I cannot see how it could be left on the landlord
without being transferred to the tenant.
Do not you think that if in any way landlords were to take
upon themselves the payment of the church, leaving it to their
tenants to reimburse them as to those tenants might seem fit,
that it would go a great way towards removing the pressure
that now prevails ? — It would certainly.
Do not you conceive that the amount of rent which a tenant
can afford to pay, depends upon the comparison of the pro-
duce of his land and the expenses which he has to incur ? —
As a general proposition, that is true ; but in the particular
circumstances of Ireland it is not true, because the population
of Ireland is so disproportionecl to the means of employment ;
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED, 85
that is, the population having no means of employment but
agriculture, there is always more competition for lands than
the due value of land would justify, the rents offered are
generally above the value of the land compared with what
they ought to be.
For a moment setting out of the question those excessive
rents which arise from great competition, and taking only the
general principle, a comparison of the produce on the one
hand and the expenses on the other, is the criterion which
would measure the amount of rent, supposing the demand for
land not to be excessive ? — Yes.
Then do you not imagine that the tithe which the tenant
has to pay, is part of those expenses which he sets against
the value of the produce in calculating the rent he can afford
to offer ? — Yes ; if you can give a permanent character to the
amount of the tithe.
Then supposing that by any legislative enactment, it were
possible to throw that tithe entirely upon the landlord, and
absolutely to exonerate the tenants from the payment of such
tithe, would not the tenant be able to give a higher rent for
his land, than he could afford to have given for it before, be-
cause his expenses would be diminished, the produce remain-
ing the same ; there being therefore a greater surplus produce
remaining after payment of his expenses, he could afford to
increase his rent ? — He would have a certain profit and cer-
tain surplus after paying the expenses.
Therefore the competition for that land which thus would
give a greater profit, would lead to a higher rent being of-
fered for it ? — It would, I think.
Consequently, if the rent increased as the tithe was taken
off, the tenant would appear to be in the same condition in
which he was before ? — Yes, it comes to the very point which
I was observing ; I do not see how the tithe can practically
be transferred from the tenant to the landlord.
Therefore you are of opinion, that no legislative enactment
could practically relieve the tenant from the payment either
of tithe, or of an amount of rent equal to the tithe ? — Except
in this one view ; the great grievance of tithe at present is,
the precariousness of its amount, and the mode in which it is
generally exacted; if the tithe could be made analogous to
rent, fixed, and payable by the landlord, the landlord would be
responsible for it, and the tenant would be considerably bene-
fitted; it may unfortunately turn out, that the rent would be
raised, but I do not think the rent would be raised to the full
extent of the tithe.
Would not the same extreme competition, which now leads
86 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
a tenant to offer for any given piece of land more than its
real value, equally stimulate him to offer an increase of rent
equal to the amount of tithe taken off? — I consider that the
landlords in general would see that it was not their interest
to accept what the tenants might offer, inasmuch as they
would see that the tenants could not pay it.
Does the landlord generally exercise that discretion now ?—
In many instances they do, but in general they do not, be-
cause the prices are in such a fluctuating state.
Would it not be perfectly fair for the landlord to accept an
augmentation of rent, equal to the tithe that had ceased ? — I
do not see why he should not, if the amount of rent was fair
before.
Ought not a part of those very high rents that are offered
and paid by the lower classes, to be considered as a payment
for the risk that is incurred, in letting that class of people
have land, in addition to the payment for the rent of the
land ? — I do not see how it can be considered in that point of
view.
Is not there a considerable risk in making that description
of persons a tenant ? — Not a greater risk than if any persons
had a rent laid upon them, that was disproportioned to the
value of the land.
Do you conceive the rents imposed are settled by the land-
lords, by having any arbitrary power of fixing the rent ? —
Yes ; in consequence of the number of competitors for land,
the landlords can fix the rent.
Why do not they fix a higher rent than they now take ? —
They fix more than they are likely to get ; and if they fixed a
higher, they would not get it, but they would frighten their
tenants away altogether.
Must not the rents be fixed by the prices at the markets ? — •
By the prices of markets, compared with the number of
bidders for land.
Practically, have not the rents for land risen and fallen, as
the markets have risen and fallen in Ireland ? — They have,
but not in the same proportion.
Is not the tithe tax that is fixed by the new Act, regulated
according to the rent of the land, as well as the extent of it,
that is relieved from tithe ? — I am not aware.
If a tax is imposed according to the rent of land, is not
such a tax absolutely a tax on rent ?— Certainly.
Then if it is a tax on rent, and if the rate of rent paid by
the farmer for land is regulated by the price of commodities,
how can the landlord make the tenant pay that tax? — If the
rent of land be fairly regulated, and always regulated by the
RE?. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 87
price of commodities, and the tithe becomes a tax upon that
rent, of course it must be paid by the landlord.
Will you state whether you consider that the number of
the Catholic clergy has increased in the same proportion
with the population of their respective parishes 1 — There has
been an increase in the number of Catholic clergy, but I do
not think the number has increased in proportion to the po-
pulation.
Then do you conceive that the duties cast upon each Catho-
lic clergyman have considerably augmented of late years? — I
do not believe that at any time there were an adequate num-
ber of clergymen for the performance of the duties, and they
are still less adequate in proportion now than ever, in conse-
quence of the increase of population.
Is not the deficiency in the number of Catholic religious
instructors of the people felt as a great inconvenience, both
to the clergy and to the people ? — It is.
Do you consider the number of persons that attend to the
religious duties diminishes or increases ? — They diminish in
consequence of the inability of the priests to attend to them
all.
In consequence of the inadequate number of the Catholic
clergy, is it not difficult, if not impossible, in many instances,
to exhort the people in the way of sermon after mass ? — It is;
because the clergyman may have to ride to two chapels which
are four or five miles asunder; after celebrating mass in one
chapel, he must post away to the next, and after having done
his duty there, there may be two or three sick calls waiting
for him ; he may have to baptize children, and he is ex-
hausted from the labours of the morning, being the whole
time without food in consequence of the discipline of the
church.
Do you not attribute a considerable proportion of the dimi-
nution of the parishioners in attending their religious duties,
to the want of sufficient means of exhortation in the way of
sermon ? — I do, certainly ; and the want of opportunity of
catechising children, and giving them moral instructions on
Sundays.
Is your parish co-extensive with that of the Protestant cler-
gyman?— My parish embraces a district in which three or four
Protestant clergymen officiate.
What number of coadjutors do you employ in that dis-
trict ? — One only ; I have not the means of supporting more.
Can you form any estimate, as to the value of the Protes-
tant livings to the incumbents? — In my district there are
nearly three or four Protestant livings ; there is first, the
88 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
parish of Creagh ; the whole of that parish is comprised in
my district, and it was farmed, two years ago, by a tithe far-
mer ; he paid, I am not sure whether it was five or six hun-
dred a year, but I believe it was five hundred ; he complained
at first, that he lost by the contract, and I believe he got
some compensation from the clergyman ; but I have reason
to believe, that he recovered the full amount of what he
agreed to pay, and a considerable profit besides ; he let the
tithes to the people ; took notes for the payment ; in conse-
quence of the badness of the times, he complained to the
clergyman that the people were unable to pay ; he got then a
reduction or a remission of part of what he was bound to pay ;
I believe he afterwards recovered the full amount of the notes
from the people.
Will you state the amount of the sum ? — I think that he
received 100J. or 200J.
That is but a proportion of the parish which you have ? —
That is a small proportion of the parish ; then there is the
parish of Abbeystrowry ; that is a vicarage, formed by lay
impropriators; there are eighteen plough lands in that parish,
of which twelve are in my district ; there are two or three
plough lands of a parish called Aghadown in my district, be-
cause they are all inclosed by natural boundaries in my dis-
trict. The parish of Tullagh, with the exception of an island,
called Innisherkan, is in my district.
Is there another rector in that division of your parish ? —
There is a Protestant rector and a Protestant curate.
Will you state what the amount of their revenue is ? — I be-
lieve in the parish of Abbeystrowry it is worth 500/. a year to
the lay impropriator ; and then the other parish to the rector,
I believe, may be worth 400/. a year.
That is Aghadown ? — I have only a small proportion of
Aghadown ; in the whole of the district over which I am, the
tithes are about 1600/. a year, at the present reduced rate;
but it was a great deal more than that during the war.
Can you inform the Committee, what the amount of your
property is, as clergyman ? — I ought to observe, that Mr.
Hughes, the rector of the parish of Creagh, when a proposi-
tion was made to introduce the new bill, would not take less
than 800/. a year. During the war the emoluments of my
parish, between my coadjutor and myself, might approach
300/. a year; two parts were the property of the parish priest,
and the third part the property of the coadjutor ; since that,
in consequence of the depression of the times, the receipts
between the coadjutor and myself do not exceed 240/. ; some
years they have been less.
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 89
You have stated the proportion of Protestants to Catholics,
is as one to fifteen ; do you mean in that district ! — Yes.
What may be the number of your parishioners ? — I think
they approach ten thousand.
From what sources is your income derived ? — In the first
place we get from every farmer in the parish, at Christmas
and Easter, two ten-pennies, making 3s. 4d. ; many of the
farmers, in consequence of the badness of the times, have
not been able to pay us ; and then we are paid something on
the occasion of marriages, from 10s. or 15s. up to 31. or
guineas; christenings average about 3s. 4d. each, when they
they are paid ; sick calls are not paid for, generally ; I am
now eighteen years a clergyman, and I could undertake to
say that, during that time, I have not received 4/. for attend-
ance on the sick.
Do you receive any thing on confessions? — At the periods,
confessions at Christmas and Easter, the 3s. 4d. are paid by
the farmers, but this is not paid in consideration of confes-
sion ; but we go about through the villages in the country,
we attend a day in each village, where the people meet us,
and that is the occasion of paying their Christmas and Easter
dues ; but whether they confess or not, it is considered that
they are bound to pay, and many come to confession who pay
nothing.
What is the usual and average number of people married
in your parish ? — In my parish, I have had some years sixty
marriages : the year before last, they were about thirty-six ; and
at Shrovetide this year, I had forty marriages ; then I expect
there may be about ten or fifteen more in the course of the year.
What is the usual rate you receive on marriages ? — That
depends on the circumstances of the parties ; some are so
poor, that they pay nothing.
Is there no fixed or stipulated rate of payment ? — It depends
upon their circumstances ; that is, from poor farmers we ex-
pect a pound or a guinea: from persons a little richer again,
a guinea and a half or 40s., and from the very richest of them,
31. and three guineas.
What is the highest amount you ever received upon a wed-
ding ? — Thirty guineas.
What class ? — A gentleman of large fortune, a man sup-
posed to be worth 10,000^.
Is it not the habit to make a collection upon a marriage ?—
In the diocese of Cloyne it is, but in the diocese of Ross,
where I reside, it is not. I have received 201. at a marriage,
in Castletownroche ; there were twenty farmers present, who
paid 201.
90 REV, MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
That practice does not prevail in your parish ?— It does not,
nor ever did.
When it has come to the knowledge of the priest, that an
illicit intercourse has taken place between two parishioners
of the lowest class, is it not the common practice to recom-
mend that they should be married ? — It would be the duty of
the clergyman to do so ; but it has often happened that per-
sons professing themselves to be Roman Catholics, and apply-
ing to me, or other clergymen, circumstances may exist that
would render it our duty to refuse to marry them ; and in that
case they sometimes resort to the Protestant clergy, and are
married as a matter of right. The Protestant minister can-
not refuse ; for instance, a young couple may, without the
consent of parents, wish to get married ; I refuse to marry
them without that consent ; they go to the Protestant clergy-
man, and get married.
Do you mean that it is the practice, under those circum-
stances, to apply to the Protestant clergyman, they being-
Roman Catholics? — It has been the case very often.
They being Roman Catholics? — Yes ; for instance, accord-
ing to the laws of our church, the children of brothers or sis-
ters cannot be married; I refuse to marry them. They have
only to apply to the Protestant minister, and he is bound to
do so.
Do they not incur your displeasure, as their pastor, to a
certain degree? — They do; we cannot administer the sacra-
ment till they do penance, and conform to our laws.
But they invariably do return to your church ? — They always
do ; it very often happens that persons wish to get married
without the consent of parents or guardians, and we refuse to
marry them.
Is not one considerable source of emolument to the Ca-
tholic clergymen that of praying for the repose of souls ? — It
very often happens that pious persons will desire a clergy-
man to celebrate mass for the repose of their souls, and leave
a bequest, or give donations for that purpose; but it very
rarely occurs in country parts, and forms scarcely an item in
the property of the clergyman. I do not think it has ever
been 3/. in the year to me.
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 91
Lunce, 14° die Jitnii, 1824.
LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON,
IN THE CHAIR.
The Rev. Michael Collins again called in ; and Examined.
IN what state are the chapels of the Catholics, in the coun-
ty of Cork ? — In general they are in a very bad state, they are
too small in general for the congregations that resort to them ;
efforts were lately made in some places to build new chapels,
upon a scale more suited to the number that required them,
but the poverty of the people, and the pressure of other de-
mands for the established church, has rendered the progress
of those buildings slow indeed, and in some instances they
have failed altogether, for a time. I have myself an old chapel,
in the town of Skibbereen, in such a state, that I daily fear
some accident may occur whenever the people are assembled
in it, in consequence of the decayed state of the roof and the
wall ; it is altogether too small for the congregation, so much
so, that more than one half of the congregation are obliged
to kneel in the yard, or on the highway, under the open air,
and they cannot hear the instructions of the priest ; I made an
attempt to build a chapel upon a larger scale, and in a more
eligible situation ; I had no means but a half-penny collection
on Sunday, at the chapel, from the poor as they went in ; a
great number of the people going there have not often the
means of paying a half-penny, they are consequently excluded,
and lose the benefit of religious worship and religious instruc-
tions ; however, after a continuance of exertion since the year
1818, we have raised 4 or 50®£. with which we commenced a
chapel last year, and we have succeeded only in raising a part
of the walls ; we are going on very slowly, and do not expect
to have the walls finished this year, for want of means ; I have
some idea of applying in town here for aid.
What number of persons did the old chapel accommodate? — •
I do not think it would accommodate more than 1000 persons.
How many attend the service? — We have two masses in
the chapel, and at each mass about 2000 persons, or more,
attend.
So that more than half of them are obliged to be in the
open air? — More than half, and a great many stay away ra-
ther than be in the open air ; the old, and the infirm, and the
delicate.
Do many of them stay in bad weather ? — In bad weather
they must stay away.
92 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
Do many of them remain in bad weather, often ? — Of those
that come, a great many must stay outside, because if any
number exceeding 1000 comes there, they must remain out-
side.
Is it the practice of many to remain outside during severe
weather ? — It is ; you may see them in severe weather, and
under the pelting of storms, with their hats off, kneeling in
the mud.
Is the description you have given of your own chapel one
that may be applied to other chapels in the county ? — I think
it may, generally ; but in our district we have a greater num-
ber of poor than in many other places ; as an illustration of
that, I would observe, that the whole number in my district
does not exceed 10,000 souls, and in part of that district, that
is the part adjoining the town of Skibbereen, there were, in
the summer of 1822, more than 6000 paupers on the charity
list ; and in the other part there were nearly 3000 paupers
subsisting upon the charity received from England in that
year.
Were those people wholly destitute of employment, and of
the means of providing money for the purchase of food ? —
They consisted partly of poor farmers and partly of poor la-
bourers ; the poor farmers, in consequence of the pressure of
rents, were, early in the year, obliged to send to market their
wheat and oats, and other grain ; the amount of these did not
pay their rents, the crop of potatoes had fallen short, and
they had no means of subsistence in the latter part of the
summer, they were obliged to resort to public charity; the
poor labourers had no employment whatsoever, and they were
obliged to subsist upon public charity. I have a note of the
number of families and individuals in the town and county,
taken from the poor list at the last return, in 1822 ; in town
there were 790 families, consisting of 2889 individuals, in
the county 715 families, consisting of 2234 individuals, the
whole making 1505 families, containing 6123 individuals,
and that only in part of a district under my care ; the popu-
lation in the whole district does not exceed 10,000.
In other times of scarcity, when relief has not been sent
from England, how have those people been supported? — The
farmers generally raise as much potatoes as support their fa-
milies ; in summer they have a little milk (sometimes some
of them have no milk) ; they have a little milk or fish ; but
through the winter, they must, in general, eat those potatoes
without any accompanying food.
Merely with water and salt ? — With water and salt.
Have they no fish upon that coast ? — Wherever an opportu^
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 93
nity of fishing exists, the fish taken enters into the calculation
of the rent, and the rent is raised in proportion to the oppor-
tunity of fishing, so that they cannot Tteep the fish for the
subsistence of their families ; they are obliged to sell it as
part of the means of making up the rent.
In the year 1817 was there a great want of food in the dis-
trict ?— There was.
How were the people provided with the means of subsist-
ence ? — There was as great, or a greater famine in the year
1817 than in the year 1822, and many perished in that year.
There was a local subscription in my district for their relief,
which enabled the managers to buy in potatoes rather early
in the season, and to sell them out at a reduced price ; but
there was more employment in 1817 than in 1822, and the
reason is this, in 1817 there was a higher price for grain than
the year 1822, and the farmers who were enabled to sell their
grain got a better return, and were enabled to give employ-
ment to more of the poor.
Was that local subscription sufficient to assist all the peo-
ple ? — It was sufficient to save many from perishing that would
have perished ; others did die of the diseases contracted from
hunger.
Were there many died ? — A good many fevers commenced
that year, and the effects of famine continued during the great
part of the ensuing years ; the ensuing winter and summer of
the years 1817 and 1818.
For how many months did that distress for food in 1817
continue ? — It continued from the month of May until the be-
ginning of September.
Were the great body of poor entirely dependent upon cha-
nty during that period ? — They were.
Were there any other means of affording charity than that
of subscription ? — There was some aid from the government.
The question refers to private, individual charity ; to what
extent was that carried ? — A benevolent individual in the town
of Skibbereen, who had no landed property there, gave 100/. ;
and another benevolent individual, who had no landed pro-
perty, gave 70/. ; but the landed gentry, with the exception of
one proprietor, gave very little.
Did the farmers give potatoes and food to the people ?— -
The farmers, who had food to spare, exercised their usual
charity, that is, they gave to the roaming beggars some little
pittance; the whole country was swarming with persons wan-
dering through it, women, and shoals of children following
them ; they went from farm-house to farm-house, and they
might get at each house a potatoe or two ; in many places
94
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
they were refused, because such was the scarcity and the temp-
tation arising from the high prices, that the farmers wei
more stingy than they used to be in former periods.
Is it the custom for persons that have meal and potatoes, to
sell it to the poor people upon credit ? — Yes, it is.
Making- the time of payment correspond with the probable
return of better times? — They sell it upon credit, at usurious
prices. I have known gentlemen who speculated in that way,
persons classing as such, men of 500/« or 600/. a-year, de-
rived from profit rents, being also partly farmers, and partly
in the corn trade ; in the year 1822, when the current price
of wheat was only 22s. a bag, those persons sold their wheat
on credit, at 30s. and a guinea and a half a bag, payable at
the ensuing Michaelmas ; and if payment was not made at
Michaelmas, the price was to be raised from 30s. to a guinea
and a half; and so on, according to the delay of payment.
Did they sell potatoes on the s^me principle?— Yes.
Was it to the poor people that they sold this food ? — They
sold it to such of the poor, as could give security for the
payment.
Did the poor people pay them when they were able ? — Yes ;
I have not heard of any cases where payments were not made
in that or the subsequent year ; probably they were not so
punctual as they would have been, had they employment.
Was not this plan of selling upon credit, a matter of accom-
modation to the poor? — It was a very limited and local ac-
commodation, because the higher prices that prevailed in
Dublin and in other parts, than were given in and about Skib-
bereen, induced the speculators in the corn and potatoe trade,
to buy up all the grain and potatoes, for the purpose of ex-
portation ; and it likewise induced the landlords to compel
their tenants to send into their store-houses the whole of the
grain, and part of the potatoes which the families of the te-
nants would want, with a view of having them sold in the Dub-
lin market. I know the tenantry upon an estate in the neigh-
bourhood of Baltimore, who had they been allowed to retain
the potatoes and grain grown by them, would have suffered
nothing from the scarcity ; but in consequence of the high
prices (ten pounds a ton) that were given in Dublin, they
were obliged to give up to their landlords, or their agents, a
greater proportion than they ought to have done consistently
with the subsistence of their families ; in the course of the
summer, they ran short of food, and to supply themselves, they
were obliged to sell every disposable article they had ; they
were obliged to sell their stock and household furniture. I
made known the circumstance to a landlord on the occasion,
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED* 95
and his agent took offence at me, for stating the fact to the
landlord, and soliciting some relief for the tenantry ; the noble
lord sent to the agent the price of two tons of potatoes, that
is 20/. and in consequence of that, I incurred the displeasure
of the agent for interfering at all.
Is there any distress existing at present, from the want of
food in that district ? — I think a good deal of distress is be-
ginning to show itself, more indeed from want of employment
than from want of food ; in this way, when the price of food
rises, and the rate of wages does not rise in the same propor-
tion ; or when there is not employment for the whole of the
people, distress exists ; when food is very cheap, there is no
distress, because the people are very liberal. In the last
year, potatoes were down to three halfpence, and a penny a
weight, that is 21 Ibs. ; this year they have risen to seven-
pence, eight-pence, nine-pence, and ten-pence ; there was as
much and more employment last year than there is this year ;
and the consequence is, that the whole of the country, when
I left it, was covered with shoals of vagrants, going about
seeking relief ; women and children begging.
Were the people belonging to the country, or strangers ?-^»
People belonging to the country, and some strangers too.
Is it not the practice, when a scarcity is apprehended, for
the people, for a considerable time, to live very sparingly ?— *
It is.
To what extent will they carry that practice, with regard to |
eating a sufficiency of proper food ? — Instead of eating three
meals a day, they will eat but two ; and instead of two meals > . »
a day, they will live upon one ; I have known the families of ',
farmers live upon one meal a day.
For any considerable time ? — A month or six weeks.
Is there much sickness in consequence of this scarcity ? —
In general, fever and dysentery ; though I must say, that in
the year 1822 there was less sickness than in any other period
of distress, and the reason of that appears to be, the ample
and timely supplies received from England.
Has any plan occurred to you by which these occasional
famines could be relieved ; any general plan of providing for
the poor ? — I conceive the great cause of scarcity and distress
is, that there is nothing to draw off the surplus population
from exclusive dependence on the soil for support ; they must
consequently look to land alone for the means of employment.
The land proprietors have taken up an opinion' latterly, that
the cause of their distress is the over-stocking the land with
people ; and as the leases fall in, they get rid of the surplus
population by turning them out entirely from their lands.
96 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
Those poor people, not getting employment, either erect tem-
porary habitations like sheds on the highway, or they come
into towns and crowd themselves into small apartments, per-
haps four or five families would live in a garret or small
hovel, huddled together there, without clothes or bedding, or
food, living upon the chance of employment in the town as
labourers. That employment they cannot procure. It is only
three weeks or about a month ago, that I saw on an estate, to
which I alluded before, a certain farm that had forty families
residing on it, thinned in this manner.
What was the extent of it ? — I suppose it might be 500
acres, including the bad land ; a great deal of bad land upon
it. Those forty families consisted of 200 individuals. When
the lease fell in, in pursuance of the general system adopted
amongst the landlords, twenty-eight or thirty of those fami-
lies, consisting of 150 individuals, were dispossessed ; they
were allowed to take with them the old roofs of the cabins,
that is the rotten timber and rotten straw ; and with those
they contrived to erect sheds upon the highway. The men
could get no employment, the women and children had no re-
source but to go to beg ; and really it was a most affecting
scene to behold them upon the highway, not knowing where
to go to. This system is becoming prevalent, and therefore
I conceive the cause of distress to be the excess of population
with want of employment ; and there being no legal provision
for securing subsistence for those poor people that are thrown
as destitute vagrants upon the world.
Have not potatoes been a very considerable export from the
district of Skibbereen for many years past ? — They have.
To Cork and Dublin ?— To Cork and Dublin, and Water-
ford and Limerick also.
If it were not for the exportation of potatoes from that dis-
trict, do you not think there would be sufficient food to feed
the population of that district ? — Yes, if all the potatoes re-
moved there, except in cases of failures of crops, which is a
matter of frequent occurrence ; but if exportation were dis-
couraged, potatoes would not be grown to the extent they
are.
The question refers to the average of years ? — Upon an ave-
rage of years I think there would.
Do you think in any year, even a year of the greatest dis-
tress, there has not been sufficient potatoes grown in the dis-
trict for the consumption of the population, had they all re-
mained in the district ? — I apprehend not ; I think in the year
1822 there would not have been a sufficiency.
Did you make a statement with regard to an alteration in
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 97
the mode of letting land similar to that which you have now
made to the Committee, in a letter to the London Tavern
committee ? — I did.
Will you look at that letter, and see whether it is a copy of
your's ?— This is a part of the letter. It is this.—" The mid-
*4 dleman being bound by contract to make good engagements
" which the change of times disables him to fulfil, cannot
" exercise towards the tenant that lenity which he does not
" himself experience ; hence he is forced to exercise against
" the occupier a severity from which in many instances his
" natural disposition revolts. But the occupier is the last and
" greatest sufferer. After an unavailing struggle for some
" time to retain a house and holding for his family, by
" parting with every thing in the hope that times might mend
" and prices rise, he is finally dismissed from his farm, stript
" of all he ever possessed, and forced to seek shelter in some
" lane in the next town, in the hope of subsisting as a day-
" labourer.
" The redundant population of this island is looked upon by
them as a main cause of the decreasing value of land, and of
the inability of tenants to pay rent ; it has therefore become
a favourite object with the owners of land to thin the popu-
lation on their estates, under the idea that being too nume-
rous, they consume the whole produce of the land, and leave
nothing for the owners ; yet if this plan be acted upon, as it
is beginning to be extensively, what is to become of the
people ? they have not the means to emigrate, nor can they
get land or employment at home. A poor man thus dismissed '.
with his family, from his dwelling and land, with perhaps one •
or two cows, a few sheep or a horse — the whole of which may
not, at existing prices, be worth five pounds, — seeks, in the
first instance, to procure a lot of land from some middle man,
who has cleared the farm of the pauper tenants whom he had
previously ruined, and who is induced to take him as tenant,
because he possessed a cow, a horse, or some sheep ; the rent
is such as the middle man chooses to impose, the tenant being
willing to promise any thing rather than go into a town,
where he knows he cannot find employment, and hoping to
get subsistence for a year or two, on his new holding; but at
the end of a year, all that he has is seized for his new master,
and he is ultimately compelled to seek an asylum in some
hovel in town, trusting for his support to the precarious
chances of daily labour."
Are there a great number of persons, throughout the coun-
try, circumstanced like those you have just described ? — The
98 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
system is becoming more general ; the system of turning off
the surplus population is becoming quite prevalent.
Are you of opinion that any plan can be devised for giving
relief to the poor in cases of emergency ? — I think that the
tendency, on the part of landlords, to turn off, in that un-
merciful way, their surplus stock, as they call it, of men,
would be considerably checked, if there was some legal obli-
gation imposed upon them to provide for those poor people
till they could provide for themselves, or to do as I heard was
done in Scotland by the Marchioness of Stafford, when she
lessened the population upon her estates. She procured tem-
porary accommodation for the deprived tenants, shipped them
at her own cost for America, and settled them there ; I have
heard that she did so ; and those people are much better off
than they would have been had they continued in the Highlands.
Do you think that any plan of emigration, carried on at the
expense of government, would prove effectual ? — I think that
a plan of emigration might answer very well for the present,
but unless some other plan was adopted to check the pro-
gressive disproportion between employment and population,
the evil would be of constant recurrence ; and then the sys-
tem of emigration should be kept up perpetually.
Do you think any part of the principle of the English poor
laws could be introduced ? — I think so ; under the existing
circumstances, and under certain modifications, I think that
the principle ought to be adopted in some way applicable to
the state of the country.
Would you carry that principle further than the support of
the aged and infirm ? — I would carry it as far as is necessary
to protect the poor, and to produce a community of feeling
between the proprietors of the land and the population ; so
that it would be the interest and duty of the proprietors to
provide employment for the population ; and so that the
people would feel they had some tie upon the land, and that
mutual good feeling would be the result ; then they would feel
an interest in the continuance of the existing order of things.
Do you think any measure would be useful in Ireland, the
effect of which was to render the increase of population still
more rapid in that country than it is now is ? — That is a very
abstract question ; but I should say, certainly not, if other
circumstances did not render such a measure absolutely ne-
cessary.
Then supposing that the tendency of poor laws elsewhere
has been found to lead to an increase of population, do you
think the introduction of the poor laws in Ireland would do
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 99
good ? — If the tendency of the poor laws elsewhere has been
found to produce an increase of population disproportioned
to the means of employment, I should think that it would not
be a useful measure, except existing necessity authorized it ;
what I mean by an existing necessity is this ; that the people
at present are in so destitute a state, that if some legal pro-
vision is not made for them, they must perish, either by •
famine or by pestilence, or by the sword, for disturbance
must continue.
Supposing a system of parochial rates to be introduced into
Ireland, would not the effect of it be to tax the property of
landlords who might by possibility have improved the con-
dition of their tenants, for the benefit of adjoining estates
where such care had not been shewn ? — I think a qualification
might be introduced in the bill that would meet that evil.
Do you think that any law which has a tendency of securing
people's support, independent of their own exertions, can be
favourable to the condition of the lower orders in Ireland? —
I think that there exists in human nature a principle which
will always induce men to prefer acquiring their subsistence
from their own exertions rather than in an eleemosynary way;
that men will always prefer deriving their support from their
own labour to deriving it from a system of alms and charity.
Will not those feelings exist in a very different degree in
different persons ?— A great deal will depend upon good edu-
cation, and habits derived from comfort; I know that the
people in general in my country would prefer working for
their hire than procuring subsistence by begging.
Do you not think there are a great number of an opposite
feeling, and who would become idle from a certainty of being
provided for by the poor laws ? — Many instances perhaps may
be found, but in laying down a general rule, we must advert
to the greater number of cases.
Do you not think, in other words, that it would increase
the number of paupers ? — Indeed I do not think it would, if
checked by other circumstances ; for instance, in Scotland,
Mr. M'Culloch tells us the same law exists as in England for
the relief of the poor, yet from the system that I understand
exists there, both as to education of the people and providing
for them employment, and preventing the progress of popula-
tion from exceeding the means of employment, these poor laws
are, in a manner, inoperative there ; they are not carried into
effect as in this country, though the poor laws are the same
as here.
Have you found any difference of late years in the dispo-
sition of your parishioners to come to confession ; have they
H 2
100 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
-In* my
been more or less disposed than they formerly were ?— ]
immediate district, I find in general that they are as well dis-
posed, with this qualification, a great many of them are not
so well instructed as we wish. It appears to me that they are
not instructed, from the want of an adequate number of teach-
ers and clergymen, and I fear many are falling off on that
account.
Do you find any difference in the disposition of your pa-
rishioners to confess, in consequence of a more tranquil or a
more disturbed state of the country ? — I should think that if
the country were disturbed, they would not come to confes-
sion at all. I have heard, and I believe that in the parts of
the country that were disturbed, it formed a part of their con-
federacy not to go to confess to the priest.
That where illegal oaths were administered, it formed
part of the obligation not to go to confession ? — To abstain
altogether from confession : first, lest the consciences of those
going to confession would be acted upon by the priest ; se-
condly, as it would be altogether useless to them whilst they
were in that state.
So that the obligation of this secret oath was paramount
to the conscientious influence of the priest? — Yes, upon such
as took the oaths ; but when they were stimulated by the
priest to come to confession, they were told, that the first
thing necessary to enable them to make a good confession,
was to withdraw from illegal associations, and to consider
themselves bound to violate that oath ; that illegal oaths were
not binding on the conscience.
Has the priest any moral power of compelling his flock to
come to confession — is there any spiritual censure consequent
upon the neglect of that duty ? — -There is a general law of the
church which renders it obligatory on persons to confess at
least once a year, and there is a censure annexed to their not
doing so ; but the influence of this censure upon the minds of
people depends upon the influence of public opinion ; and
when they are more under the influence of their bad feelings
or dispositions, they set at nought our menaces.
It is not followed by any interdiction from the rites of the
church ? — They will apply for no rites of the church until
they come to confession, with the exception of marriage
alone.
Suppose a person was to apply to you to be married who
had not confessed within a proper period, would any objection
be taken ? — We would exhort him to come to confession, and
he might come to confession ; but I should apprehend that it
would be a matter of form on his part ; he will bend his knee
REV, MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 101
to the priest, and if he be disposed to make a frank and free
confession, he would disclose his sins ; but if he chooses to
comply only with the letter of the law, we cannot take notice
of it, because we cannot take notice of any thing that is done
in confession out of the tribunal. ^e,*jJT
Do you apprehend that the force of those sacred oaths ever
extends to this point, that it should not merely keep an indi-
vidual away from confession, but that it should induce him,
when at confession, to make only a partial confession ? — I
should fear it would, and particularly among the uninstructed,
for there are a great many of the people very ignorant. I
should think it would ; I cannot speak from my own know-
ledge.
It has been stated to the Committee by several witnesses,
that the lower orders are very much in the habit of taking
false oaths in courts of justice and elsewhere ? — I am afraid
they are.
Can you explain to the Committee from what cause that
arises ? — The poverty of the people in a great measure, their
extreme poverty and their ignorance, and above all, the in-
fluence of immoral men in comparatively a high station of
life, such as their landlords, who want to get their votes at
elections, or the agents of those landlords, men who, though
they rank as gentlemen, probably have no more regard for
the morality of an oath than those poor people themselves.
Do you mean the influence of their example ? — Their ex-
ample, their authority, the influence of wealth over poverty,
and all those causes put together.
Does any part of it arise from the want of a sufficient num-
ber of religious instructors ? — I should take that to be the
great cause of their not being sufficiently instructed ; but
they all generally know more or less the nature of an oath.
Have you and your assistant in your parish sufficient oppor-
tunities of attending to all the religious duties of the nume-
rous people living in it? — We endeavour to instruct them, but
many of them cannot hear our instructions from the smallness
of the places of worship ; and then our duties are very labo-
rious, our number being small. We have two chapels to
attend to, and each of us celebrates two masses on Sundays
and holidays, in each of those chapels.
What other laborious duties have you to perform in the
course of a week ? — The sick are very numerous, and they
must be attended.
Do you attend all the sick that apply ?— Certainly; and the
confessional is a labour that must be likewise attended to,
though, from the fewness of our numbers, we are not able
102 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
to hear the whole of those who apply ; and in a wide district
of country, the priest on horseback loses a great deal of time
in going from place to place.
It has been stated to the Committee, that a person guilty of
perjury can get absolution ; is that true ? — I should be glad to
know what is understood by absolution ; perhaps the person
that made that statement did not know the Catholic meaning
of the word absolution. It might be true or false in his sense.
Is it in point of fact true that a person being guilty of per-
jury can get from the priest absolution, under any circum-
stances., understanding, by the term absolution, a full pardon
given by the priest for the sin of perjury? — Undoubtedly there
is no sin for which pardon cannot be procured by repentance,
but it must be a sincere repentance ; there is no sin that can-
not be absolved by sincere repentance.
Will you explain freely your view of the nature of absolu-
tion ? — By absolution is meant, that when a person comes, and
discloses the state of his conscience to a priest having autho-
rity to hear him, with the necessary accompanying disposi-
tions, such as sincere sorrow and contrition for his sins, and
forms a resolution to sin no more, and a resolution to make
adequate atonement both to God and his neighbour for his
sins ; to God by penance imposed upon himself, to the neigh-
bour by the satisfaction enjoined by the duties of justice and
charity ; — a person coming with these dispositions, resolved
to forsake sin, never to return to it, and to make restitution
in the way 1 have described, may get pardon and absolution ;
but the condition of that absolution is, that he shall promise,
in the most sincere manner, never again to commit those or
any other crimes, never to resort to the occasion of them. If
he belong to an illegal society, if he resort to improper com-
pany, if he frequent improper places, he must promise to
avoid these occasions of sin ; in fact, he must promise to be-
oome a new man ; and on those conditions,^ they be sincere
on the penitent's part, we think the priest empowered to pro-
nounce a sentence of absolution.
Does this doctrine differ at all from the doctrine of the es-
tablished church ? — There is something analogous to it in the
established church, I believe ; in the Liturgy there is a form
of absolution given, but it is more a form of prayer than the
judicial act of a confessor, empowered, as we conceive, to ab-
solve, " whose sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto
them ;" and we believe they have this power when the peni-
tents bring the necessary conditions, but without those condi-
tions, it is not in the power of a bishop, or even the Pope, to
absolve even for a venial sin.
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 103
You have stated, that there is no sin for which a person
cannot obtain absolution by repentance ; would you extend
that even to murder? — Undoubtedly; even in the established
church a clergyman accompanies a murderer to the place of
execution.
Do you speak of before or after trial ; do you mean, that
before trial a person who confessed to his priest that he had
committed the atrocious sin of murder, that before trial the
priest, upon those conditions, would absolve him? — Undoubt-
edly ; and if he be truly penitent, why not ? will that injure
the morality of society ? He is disposed to make restitution
as far as he can, even with his life, if necessary, to offended
justice, but he is not bound to denounce himself; but, in
practice, murderers in the custody of the law are, I believe,
seldom or never absolved until the eve of execution. By the
discipline of our church every priest approved by the bishop,
and licensed to hear confessions, has not the power of absolv-
ing in all cases ; there are a certain number of atrocious
crimes that the bishop reserves to himself, and some of them
are even reserved for the Pope; but in countries where access
to the Pope's penitentiary would be too difficult, the power is
delegated to the diocesan bishop, and the bishop can delegate
the power to the priest under him, so that a person guilty of
murder applying to me in my own parish for absolution, I can-
not absolve him, I should refer him to the bishop : this is
done in order to impress upon his mind the atrociousness of
the crime, and in order to make him more sensible of the
necessity of repentance, and in order to make the crime more
horrible in his mind. There are many sins that are thus
specially reserved by the bishop, such as the sins of wilful
perjury before a magistrate, or in courts of justice, or perjury
generally, being engaged with any illegal associations ; the
atonement in the case of perjury would be, first, the atone-
ment arising from the obligation of satisfying the ends of jus-
tice ; if the perjurer had been the means of depriving his
neighbour of his property or character unjustly, it would be
enjoined on him to restore the ill-gotten property, or, if he
had not got it himself, to compel the party who has got it to
do it ; if he was the cause of loss of life or limb, he was
bound, as far as he could, to make adequate atonement to
those concerned, then the atonement between himself and his
God would be prayer, fasting, alms-deeds, and self-denial,
practised in every way.
Would the atonement be a preliminary condition to abso-
lution, or only a contingent condition? — The atonement to
justice must be preliminary, that must be satisfied in the first
104 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
instance ; if any person comes and accuses himself of robbery,
or fraud, he cannot receive absolution till he has made resti-
tution, if he be able ; if a person connected with an illegal
association were to come to confession, he must withdraw
himself from that association before he is absolved ; I should
also add, that all persons coining to confession, and profess-
ing to bring with them the necessary conditions, are not im-
mediately absolved, they are deferred from time to time, ac-
cording to the nature and enormity of their sins, until the
confessor is satisfied of their being truly penitent.
What has been the feeling of Catholic priests in general,
with respect to schools for the education of the lower classes;
have they felt it consistent with their duties to encourage
them, or have they felt any difficulty on that, subject ? — Not
the slightest difficulty, provided the mode of education were
consistent with the principles of their religion ; on the con-
trary, we should all hail with gratitude those benefactors that
would assist us in conveying moral instruction to the poor
people.
Have the priesthood generally objected to schools, the ob-
ject of which was merely to teach reading, writing, and arith-
metic, unless those schools conveyed moral and religious in-
struction, according to the form of the Catholic church ? —
They have not objected to such schools ; they would prefer
schools in the way described, but as they cannot get them in
that way, they would have no objection to the establishment
of schools that would give elementary instruction to the poor,
it would enable the poor to acquire religious knowledge after-
wards.
Have they objected to the reading of the scriptures in those
schools? — They have.
Is that an objection generally founded upon the principles
of the Catholic church, or does it arise from a particular
view taken by individual priests ? — It is an objection founded
upon the discipline of the Catholic church, and partly their
principles too ; I will state my reasons.
Will you state the extent to which their objection goes? —
It is a principle with Catholics, that the right of private judg-
ment in the interpretation of the scriptures must be excluded,
and can never be admitted ; and therefore placing the scrip-
tures in the hands of youth, unaccompanied with interpreta-
tion, or with the means of interpreting them according to the
sense of the church, would in the mind of a Catholic, be lay-
ing a foundation for diversity of opinion in religious matters.
Indeed the ultimate principle upon which Protestants differ
from Catholics, is the right of private judgment allowed by
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 105
Protestants, and the exclusion of that right by the Catholics ;
any principle that goes to establish the right of private opi-
nion in matters of faith, instead of the public sense of the
church, is a principle that Catholics cannot recognise ; put-
ting the scriptures into the hands of uninstructed persons un-
accompanied by interpretation, would, in the opinion of many
Catholics, lead to establish that right of private opinion which
they consider to be the root and fountain of all the sects that
have appeared throughout the world.
Are there editions of the scriptures accompanied by any
comments, the reading of which in schools is sanctioned by
Catholic priests? — Yes ; the priests would be very glad to put
the scriptures into the hands of their people generally, accom-
panied by the comments, or unaccompanied by the comment,
if the people were prepared to receive them ; but putting them,
into the hands of youth as school-books, they consider would
make them too familiar with them, and tend to lessen the re-
verence due to them.
Is there any school with which you are connected, at Skib-
bereen? — Yes ; I have got a school under my own care.
How many children are there in that school ? — One hun-
dred and fifty ; the reason there are not more is, that the poor
cannot spare their children. I suppose I would have five
hundred children in the school, if I had the means of feeding
them.
Is there a great anxiety on the part of the people in the
country for education ? — A great anxiety.
What funds have you for that? — I pay the master 201. a
year, which I raise by a tax of two ten-pennies, which I lay
upon the sponsors at each baptism ; there are two sponsors
at each baptism, and they each pay me a ten-penny ; that does
not, make up the whole salary ; I pay the rest out of my own
pocket.
Is Reeves's History of the Bible used in that school ?— It is.
What other books are used in the school ? — Chaloner's
" Think well on't," and Fleury's Historical Catechism ; then
there is Dr. England's System of Education for children, which
consists of reading lessons, conveying moral and useful illus-
trations taken from sacred history, and a little natural his-
tory ; Murphy's Catholic Education, in three volumes. Those
also contain moral instruction, and some inquiry into natural
history, or pleasing and attractive stories that excite moral
feelings, or convey some knowledge of arts and sciences.
Do you make use of the tablets, as they are called, pub-
lished by the Kildare-street Society ? — I do not know whether
106 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
they are the tablets of the Kildare-street Society, but we have
tablets.
Is Dr. England a dignitary of the Roman Catholic church ?
-r-He is now bishop of Charlestown in America, but he was a
distinguished clergyman in Cork.
Has not the great objection which has been made in some
places by the Roman Catholic clergy against reading the
scriptures, been principally against the introduction of the
Bible in schools as a school book ? — Certainly, they consider
it altogether an unfit book to be put into the hands of
children.
Have you ever heard the Catholic clergy and the dignitaries
of the Catholic church admitting the principle of reading in
the school the gospel of the day, reserving to the priest, after
school hours, the right of explaining that gospel to the chil-
dren ? — I have heard, since I came to town, of such a thing ;
but I did not know it till I came here. The bishops in the
south are averse to any communication with the Kildare-street
Society, because they conceive there is a latent purpose in the
perseverance with which the Society adhere to the introduc-
tion of the scriptures into the schools ; they conceive there are
ulterior views to Protestantism ; and that it is now only laying
the foundation of proselytism, expecting to get hereafter a
hold on the minds of the people ; and therefore the bishops are
adverse to any communication with the Kildare-street So-
ciety.
Have you seen any tract of that description put into circu-
lation in the south of Ireland ? (handing a tract to witness). —
I did not see this exactly, but I know there are many of that
character in circulation.
What is the title of it ? — " Latin prayers, not fit for Irish-
men."
Do you think, that the circulation of tracts of that descrip-
tion amongst the Catholic peasantry has augmented their dis-
like to the reading of the scriptures ? — Undoubtedly it has ;
they cannot distinguish the Kildare-street Society from
the Hibernian Society, or the " Society for Promoting
Christian Knowledge," the grand object of which societies is
the proselyting of the Irish peasantry by educating them with
Protestant masters and Protestant books.
Is it not the professed and declared object of some of those
societies to make proselytes ?— It certainly is the object of the
Hibernian society, and it is an avowed and known object of
the Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge. There
is a school established upon that principle in my parish, and
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 107
there was an attempt made to force the children of my parish
to go to it, but the attempt failed.
Have you known any attempt made to carry the children to
Protestant places of worship ? — Yes. Some of the Catholic
children attended it, and they were taken to church : in fact,
the school is held in the church. There was another attempt
in Bandon ; Catholic children were lured into the school by
promises of clothing and food occasionally, and after being
there some weeks or months, they were marched to the Pro-
testant place of worship. I think it was a meeting-house, not
the church.
In fact, has not the opposition which has been made by Ca-
tholic priests to the establishment of schools indifferent parts
of Ireland, been with a view of preventing this progress of
making proselytes ? — Certainly, we should hail education most
cordially if it were given to us upon fair terms.
Do not you conceive, that it would have a very beneficial
effect in Ireland if it were possible to educate the Protestants
and Catholics among the peasantry in the same schools ? — In
many parts of Ireland that is impossible, because you would
find no Protestants : if it were possible I do not know that it
would have effect, either one way or the other. I do not
think it would have any effect either good or bad.
Do not you think it might tend to do away the spirit of acri-
mony between the two sects ? — I do not think that will be ef-
fectually done away by the common intercourse of life, if they
were upon one common level in the eye of the law.
Do not you think it. would be mainly accessory to such a
happy effect, if the children of the two persuasions could be
put together, and educated together, without causing jealousy
on the part of the Catholic priesthood?— I do not think it
would have any material effect either for or against it alto-
gether ; practically, the great bulk of children are educated
together at the same schools: I myself was educated at the
school of a Protestant minister.
The question refers to the peasantry of the country ? — Even
those persons are educated together, for you will find Catholic
children in the schools of Protestants, and Protestant children
in the schools of Catholics.
Do not you think, that if the means of mixing them together
could be found, that it would facilitate the means of educa-
tion, and be a great encouragement to Catholics to contribute
to those funds without fear or jealousy ? — I think it would be
a desirable thing, but I do not think it would have the effect
that is anticipated.
You have stated, that it being the doctrine of the Catholic
108 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
church, that there is no right of private interpretation of the
holy scriptures, and that, therefore, it is an objectionable
thing to put the scriptures without comment into the hands of
uninformed children, does that apply to the doctrinal parts
of the scriptures only, or does it embrace every part of the
Bible, moral as well as doctrinal ? — It does, because there
have been misinterpretations of the moral parts as well as the
doctrinal.
Do not you think there are parts of the Bible of which there
cannot be misinterpretations, and do not you think, that if
there are such parts, they might be extracted and put into the
hands of the children without comment, and without any in-
terference on the part of the schoolmaster ? — I do think, that
if there was a frank and open communication between both
parties, that books might be selected that would be unobjec-
tionable to both parties ; I do think that an accommodation
might take place if it were deemed necessary.
Have not many prelates of the Protestant church objected
to reading the scriptures without note or comment ? — Yes ; I
have heard of Dr. Marsh for instance, and I have heard that
the presbytery of Scotland object to the introduction of scrip-
ture into the schools without note or comment. I have heard
that Bishop Marsh has objected to the Bible societies, and the
Archbishop of Armagh withdrew himself from the Bible asso-
ciation, on the grounds that the tendency was to produce an
indefinite propagation of different religious sects.
That is precisely the opinion of the Catholic church, is it
not ? — It is.
As far as your observation goes, do you conceive that the
lower classes are most likely to be made anxious for education
for their children, when their instruction is given entirely
gratuitously, or where they make some small payment on their
own part for it, in which case do you think they attach the
greatest value to the instruction conferred ? — Those that are
able to pay have an objection to merely charitable education ;
but there are few of that description in Ireland ; but it would
be desirable that a system should be established that would as
much as possible throw into the shade the character of a cha-
ritable institution ; that is, that the people should pay some-
thing, so that they would not have the name of charity schools.
The question refers to schools established by private pro-
prietors upon their own estates ; you think that a school to
which the parent should make some small contribution would
be more gratifying to their feelings ? — It would ; but then a
school altogether established upon that principle would exclude a
great proportionof the population who are unable to pay anything.
REV MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 109
How is the fact with regard to the school you have estab-
lished ? — A great part of the children are mere paupers ; those
that are able to pay any thing prefer going to other schools,
instead of going to the poor schools.
Are any of the children presented attending the school on
the ground of not having decent clothing?— A great many.
I often ask ragged children in the streets, why they do not
come to school, and they say they have not clothes, besides
that they have no food.
Their estimate of the necessary degree of clothing is not
very high ? — No ; they would be content with very little.
It has been stated to the Committee, that lives of thieves
and other improper books have been found in schools, in the
county of Cork ; what information can you give the Commit-
tee with respect to the use of that sort of books ? — In conse-
quence of a statement to that effect made in the House of
Commons by a v member of the House, the report of which
made a great sensation in Ireland, a correspondence on that
subject was commenced, and is now carrying on between the
Catholic Association and Catholic priesthood, in the south.
The priesthood have made returns of the state of education in
their several parishes ; the books used in these schools, and
the number of schools and scholars in each parish, and they
all concur in declaring, in the most solemn manner, that those
books have not been read in -the schools as school books, nor
found there at all. There may be instances in which books
of that kind have found their way into a school, but they were
never countenanced by the Catholic clergy, nor by school-
masters ; nor is it fair to say, that because an improper book
happens to be found in some few schools, it is the school book
of the country. For I doubt very much whether in the highest
places of education some objectionable books may not have
been surreptitiously brought in now and then ; but charac-
terizing the education of the Irish peasantry as being confined
to books of that description, is a very unfair imputation, and
a very unfounded one.
You stated the other day, very clearly and distinctly, what
you conceived to be the feelings of the people upon the sub-
ject of what is commonly called Catholic emancipation ; you
were questioned as to the effect the enactments of 1793 have
had upon the minds of the people, and you seem to think that
they have not had much permanent effect in doing away the
sore feelings that had prevailed previously to that ; and you
seem to think that the cause of that was, that in point of fact,
in many respects, those enactments have not been operative ;
it is your opinion then, that they conceive that although that
•
110 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
relaxation has taken place, that an exclusive system still pre-
vails ?— Yes.
You seem to think that if the remaining disabilities were
done away, even though there were a reservation of certain
great offices of state which it might be deemed expedient, for
the security of the Protestant establishment, to keep in Pro-
testants hands, that the Catholic population would in that
case be satisfied? — Yes, they would be so far satisfied, that the
existing discontent would cease.
Do you think they would consider that as a proof, that the
exclusive system was abandoned? — Undoubtedly they would.
Allow me to say, that when I was questioned as to certain
great offices of state, I explained that I meant only two offices,
that is the chancellorship arid the royal authority.
Even if the progress of the operation of any such removal of
the disabilities were slow, if Catholics were only to be gra-
dually admitted, do you still think that the feelings under
which they now labour would be done away, from their notion
that ultimately they would be admitted practically as well as
theoretically to the full benefits of the constitution ? — I am
convinced that the existing soreness and irritation would be
considerably diminished by that hope.
Have not several parish priests been exposed to great hard-
ship from being prosecuted for marrying Catholics and Pro-
testants ? — Yes, 1 have heard of many being exposed to hard-
ship, either from actual prosecution, or from apprehension of
being prosecuted, and many have been threatened ; in that
case we act with very great caution.
Were there not some prosecutions, within the last year or
two, of this kind ?— I heard of some.
To what punishment are you subject for marrying a Catholic
and a Protestant ? — The law is rather strange ; there are two
punishments, first, we are liable to be hanged, and then to a
fine of 500/.
Is it not matter of difficulty, sometimes, to be quite certain
of the religion of the parties ? — Certainly ; any person that
wished to lay a snare for my life might do it, by pretending
to be a Catholic.
Was a priest of the name of Blake prosecuted, within the
last two years, at the assizes at Galway ? — I do not know
whether 1 read that trial, but I recollect to have read a trial, I
believe in the diocese of Tuam, of a priest prosecuted within
these two years ; he was nevertheless acquitted, because the
testimony was not conclusive, but there were other priests
that were found guilty.
Does any law afford you protection during the administra-
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. Ill
tion of service in your chapels, from disturbance and riot ? —
No, except the common law of the land, when an actual
assault takes place, or where a riot takes place ; but there is no
law such as exists in England, for I consulted a lawyer on one
occasion, and he told me, that the law that existed in England
for that protection did not apply to Ireland.
Are not all dissenting houses of worship, Catholics and
Protestants, and the clergy belonging to them, protected by
special Act of Parliament ? — I understand they are in Eng-
land.
Do you conceive that a magistrate can with impunity in-
terrupt you in the performance of your sacred functions, on a
Sunday? — Any common man can do it that chooses to do it,
unless he commits a riot ; I consulted a lawyer, and he told
me that any man might do it, unless an actual riot were com-
mitted ; and it was rny intention to petition the legislature on
that point, for some protection for the Catholic priests.
Is it not in the power of any magistrate to come to your
chapel on a Sunday, when you are performing mass, and to
turn you and your congregation out, for no other reason than
that you are performing mass ? — He can be punished under
the common law, as an intruder and breaker of the peace, but
if he were to make a noise in the chapel, and sing a song
during mass, I cannot prevent him.
A magistrate has no greater power than any other person ?
—No greater power.
In point of fact, does such interruption take place ? — Very
often ; even some of the Whiteboys interrupted a priest who
remonstrated against the Whiteboy system.
So that that interruption takes place as frequently with
Catholics as Protestants ? — Yes ; Protestants never interfere
with us at all, indeed they dare not do it, the people would
fall upon them.
Speaking generally, without particularizing the individual
instances, has it more than once happened to you to be inter-
rupted in the performance of your religious functions in your
chapel, by the disorderly conduct of individuals ? — It has.
And in those cases what means of redress have you felt to
be within your power ? — I have had no legal means of redress,
except the moral influence of having the great bulk of people
on rny side, might deter people from doing an act that might
bring summary punishment on them.
In the cases to which you allude has the performance of
service been interrupted or prevented? — Interrupted, and
prevented in one or two instances.
In those cases of disturbance to which you allude, were the
112 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
disturbing parties of your own communion or not? — They
were of my own communion ; the truth is, a Protestant could
not come there unless he had a military power to support
him, because he would bring the whole rage of the populace
upon him immediately.
Have you known the collection of church rates, of rates for
building and repairing churches, produce disturbance in the
parts of Ireland with which you are acquainted ? — Yes ; very
recently.
Will you explain the circumstances ? — The island of Innis-
herkin is a small island, forming part of the parish of
Tullah, and being off the harbour of Baltimore. The island
is not in my district, but the main part of the parish is ; it is
separated from the main land by a distance of about a mile.
The inhabitants are about a thousand, having about 200
houses. They are very poor ; so much so, that when the
attempt was made by the priest residing there, not long since,
to levy an assessment of threepence-halfpenny per house for
the repair of their old chapel, which was in utter ruin, (it was
a mere hovel, partly covered with ragged straw, and without
door or window) he failed in raising that sum, from their
inability to pay it ; and shortly after the churchwarden,
residing on the main land, came in with his assistants, to levy
a tax of 4s. bd. in the gneeve, imposed by the church vestry,
for the repayment of a sum of money, advanced by the Board
of First Fruits for the building of a church on the main land,
to which they were liable. The common people thought it
hard and unnatural, that whereas they could not contribute
any thing to shelter themselves from the wind and rain in
their chapel, they should be obliged to pay a heavy tax for a
church not in the island, but far from them ; and particularly
when they recollected that that church was built more for
ornament than for use ; inasmuch as a good church had pre-
viously existed in another part of the parish, which might
have been kept in good repair, at a moderate expense. But
it was deemed more ornamental, and more picturesque to
transfer the site of the church to a prominent point at the
opening of the harbour, where it would have a pretty effect of
landscape., The church was built there, and a tax has been
these five years annually levied upon the small and poor popu-
lation for the building of that church, unnecessary, both in
the minds of Catholics and Protestants, for the Protestant
clergyman was, as I heard, against the building of that
church ; but the people resisted the payment, of the tax,
though the priest and I, who had occasion to go there,
remonstrated with them upon the folly of their attempting
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 113
to resist in that way ; but they are very warm in the expres-
sion of their passions, and they said they would sooner die
than pay such an unnatural tax as that ; nevertheless it was
levied, and they resisted. An order came down from the
Castle of Dublin that the police should be sent there, and an
old woman was brought out, and was to be tried at the last
sessions in Skibbereen, for this breach of the law; yet their
own chapel is in ruins.
^Is it probable that an arrangement will be made to diminish
the number of holidays ? — I should prefer that that question,
should be asked of some of our bishops ; I know it is pos-
sible, because I know the number has been diminished in
France and in Italy. In France, the number of holidays are
fewer than in Ireland ; there are only four holidays in the
year there.
What are they ? — All Saints day, Ascension day ; I believe
the feast of St. Louis, and the 15th of August, being the As-
sumption of the blessed Virgin, and Christmas-day.
And Good Friday ? — Good Friday is not a holiday in the
Catholic Church.
You were lately in Rome ? — I was there last spring was four
years ; 1 have riot taken the number, but I know they are
considerably reduced.
What is the number observed in the Catholic church in Ire-
land ? — The Circumcision, on January 1st; the Epiphany,
January 6th ; the feast of St. Patrick, March 17th ; the An-
nunciation of the Blessed Virgin, March 25th; the feast of
St. John the Baptist, on the 24th of June ; of SS. Peter
and Paul, the 29th June ; the Assumption of the Blessed Vir-
gin, August 15th ; All Saints day, November 1st; and Christ-
mas-day. The moveable feasts are, Easter Monday, Ascen-
sion Thursday, Whit-Monday, and the feast of Corpus
Christi.
Is it not commonly the practice of gentlemen to apply to
priests on particular days, to exempt the people from the
holidays ? — It is.
And no objection is made to dispense with it ? — Where the
observance of a holiday would be attended with any material
injury to a poor man, the dispensation is always granted.
Or to his industry ? — Yes.
With reference to the case of Patrick Collins, who was ap-
prehended under the Insurrection Act ; the Insurrection Act
was enforced in the district in which this occurrence took
place ? — The whole county was proclaimed.
Is it an offence against that Act to be out after that hour ?
— It is an oiFence against that Act; but that Act is not en-
i
114 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
forced in that part of the country against any body ; we are
out at all hours ; it was not, and is not, at all enforced
in practice, on account of the existing tranquillity of the
country.
The Act was legally in force ? — It was legally in force.
By that Act it is an offence to be absent from home after
sunset?— Yes.
And this individual was guilty of that offence ? — He was,
in common with every other person of the country ; he, seeing
every one out after sunset, thought it was no offence in him
to be out ; his complaint was, that he was selected for that
purpose without cause.
His complaint was, not that he was apprehended without
legal cause, but that the law was enforced against him, it not
being enforced invariably against all ? — It being enforced
against nobody else ; and then his being sent to Cork, as a
person suspected of illegal practices, and not being brought
to trial.
When he was brought before Serjeant Lloyd, although there
was no information, still Serjeant Lloyd did not liberate him,
but remanded him to prison ? — Because the learned Serjeant
did not know what charge was made against him ; he could
not know it until the informations were produced.
You stated that you considered many Catholics to disap-
prove wholly of the conduct of the association,, in mixing up
other matters, such as church reform, the question of the
union, and other questions, with the consideration of the Ca-
tholic question ? — I am sure that has not the concurrence of
the Catholics generally.
You were further asked, whether the Catholics had dis-
avowed the association in these respects, and you stated they
had not ; do you conceive that an indisposition on the part of
the Catholics, to disavow the association in these respects,
proceeds from an apprehension that they might thereby injure
the discussion of the Catholic question itself ? — I do ; they do
not wish to have any thing like the appearance of divisions
among themselves ; and though the Catholic Association
might be in error in one or two points, they still look upon
them as a useful body.
Does that public body express the Catholic opinion gene-
rally ? — It expresses it in some points, it is not a representa-
tive body, nor is it assumed to be such, but only a number of
persons who have associated together for the promotion of the
Catholic cause, and those persons have their individual opi-
nions.
Do you conceive that the power of the Catholic Association
REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED. 115
depends altogether upon the continuance of the Catholic dis-
abilities?— The association would become extinct if the dis-
abilities were removed, they would no longer have any ground
to work upon.
Do you conceive that a petition to Parliament, which not
only contained a prayer for the removal of those disabilities,
but contained a great number of prayers upon political sub-
jects, unconnected with the Catholic question, would meet
the assent of the great mass of Catholics of Ireland ? — I do
think that petitions coming from them as Catholics, contain-
ing allegations and prayers to that effect, would be approved
by the Catholics generally ; many Catholics, who disapprove
of the mode of getting up these petitions, concur, neverthe-
less, in the speculative opinions and sentiments expressed in
them, but not as Catholics.
Do you wish to add any thing to the evidence you have
given ? — Yes ; there are some things I was questioned very
closely, regarding the distinction between gentlemen of patri-
monial property and gentlemen of the inferior class, in the
abuses of their office as magistrates, and whether I imputed
the same to gentlemen of high rank ; I said, I did not gene-
rally, but I have known gentlemen of high rank to be accused
of similar things ; that is to say, gentlemen possessing, or
known to possess hereditary influence, arising from their con-
nexions and their property in the country, but perhaps a di-
minished property just now ; I do not want to make any par-
ticular allusions, but I want to show, that even gentlemen of
that class were sometimes accused of being concerned in those
mal-practices, though not generally.
Then you consider it rather belonging to persons whose cir-
cumstances are narrow, than those distinguished by any cri-
terion of birth or station ? — Yes, instances of that sort were
very likely to be the result of straitened circumstances. I
was questioned pointedly with regard to the insolence of the
Protestant peasantry, founded upon the view they have of
their legal privileges, and I was asked, why I did not disabuse
them ; I had not instances then in my memory, but instances
have occurred.
Is there an Orange lodge amongst the yeomanry ? — There
is ; that is termed an Orange corps.
Are there many Protestants there ? — A great many ; that
corps is exclusively Protestant ; there were a few Catholics,
two or three, in it.
Are there any other Orange lodges in the western part of
the county of Cork r — I think there was one at Dunmanway ;
I have heard, that at the Dunmanway fair, in 1821, the
i 2
116 REV. MICHAEL COLLINS EXAMINED.
Protestants attacked the people, and they wished to give the
affray the character of rebellion. An appeal was made by
them to government ; however the government had the good
sense to send down an agent, and the result of his report was,
that the aggression was on the part of the orangemen ; they
either had cut down, or pretended that some timber was cut
down, by people to make pikes ; it appeared that the tim-
ber had been cut down by the owner of the land six months
before.
Who was the agent sent by government ? — Major Mahoney
at Dunloe, in 1821.
That corps is still embodied ? — I believe the Dunmanway
and Clonakilty corps are in being still ; it was considered as
the interest of the Protestants to give the character of dis-
turbance to the country. I have known an instance, where
a man went into the parish of Killmore, pretending that he
was an agent of the Whiteboys, to stimulate the people to
rebellion ; he had, I believe, Pastorini's prophecies ; he was
taken up by gentlemen there, and brought a prisoner to Clo-
nakilty ; he made a reference to a magistrate in Cork, who
sent him down a testimonial, that he came as an agent from
government, and he was liberated, when it turned out that
he was a spy, when he was actually inflaming the people to
rebellion.
By whom was he apprehended in Clonakilty ? — By
Mr. O'Drischol, and by the Rev. Mr. Kenny.
Do you know whether the prophecies of Pastorini were, in
fact, circulated by this individual ? — I do not know whether
they were circulated by him ; they were talked of in our
county ; but last Easter Sunday my clerk took down some-
thing of that sort of unintelligible farrago from my chapel
doors, which I suspected was put up by some orangeman, but
we could not trace it.
Have you ever seen any tracts relating to the Antichrist,
printed by the Religious Tract Society: — I have heard of
their circulation ; I have heard of their being dropped by
people travelling in gigs, and picked up on the road by coun-
trymen.
Has the Orange lodge at Clonakilty an annual procession ?
No ; they used to go to Bandon, to contribute to the proces-
sions there.
Are the processions at Bandon continued ?- — I believe they
have desisted ; they did go in procession last year.
Was there any riot? — I do not know, last year; but the
year 1821 there were two murders ; a woman was shot, and
the consequence was, that the Papists, as they were called,
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 117
murdered an innocent and poor Protestant at the fair of Ti-
rnologue, about three days after the murder of the woman,
by a cannon-shot. The orangemen carried a field-piece,
loaded with stones ; they fired at the people, and they shot
the woman.
That was at Bandon ?— -That was at Bandon ; three days
after that an innocent poor man, a Protestant, was pointed
out by some mischievous individual, at the fair of Timologue,
as one of the Bandon orangemen, and the people assailed him,
and murdered him.
Is there an inscription over the gate at Bandon now? — No ;
that is down ; I do not know whether it was ever there.
You never saw it? — No; nor never saw any body that did
see it.
Veneris 25° die Februarii, 1825.
LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR.
Anthony Richard Blake, Esq. called in ; and Examined.
You are a Roman Catholic? — I am.
You were absent from Ireland for some years till within a
late period ? — Yes, for several years.
Upon returning to Ireland, did you observe any alteration in
the state generally of the country and the condition of the
people ? — I left Ireland at a time of life at which one is not in
the habit of considering very much the state of the country,
about the age of nineteen ; but I was certainly at that time
old enough to have some general impressions upon the sub-
ject ; I think I have observed a change, and a change consi-
derably for the better.
Have you had opportunities of ascertaining the present con-
dition of the lower orders of the people? — My duties, as a
Commissioner of Education, took me during the last autumn
into several counties of Ireland ; I observed then, with satis-
faction, that the lower orders of the people appeared much
more decently clad than they were when I left Ireland origi-
nally, and I thought their general appearance considerably
improved ; there is one subject on which of course I could
give some information to the Committee, the important sub-
ject of Education ; but upon this I submit that it would not
be proper for me at present to speak, inasmuch as it will be
my duty, with my colleagues, to submit facts and opinions
upon it to the Crown, from whence our authority issues,.
118 A. R, BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
[ The Witness was informed that the Committee would abstain
from proposing any Questions on that subject. ]
Had you any opportunity of ascertaining to what degree
the labouring class of the people was employed ? — During the
period I last referred to, the autumn of 1824, it appeared to
me that the lower orders of the people were very generally
employed, and I thought I observed habits of industry growing
up amongst them.
In what part of Ireland did you observe that ? — I was through
the whole of Connaught in such away as to enable me to form
some opinion, because I dwelt a little in the different counties ;
I was also in parts of Leinster and in part of Munster.
Had you any opportunity of ascertaining to what extent any
feeling of discontent or disturbance prevailed amongst them,
in any parts ? — So far as I could form an opinion from the out-
ward appearance of things, I should conceive that there was
not any disposition to disturbance existing at that time ; with
respect to discontent, any opinion that I may have upon that
subject is formed more upon information than observation,
so far as relates to that particular tour ; I had conversations
with the clergy of both denominations, (Protestants and Ro-
man Catholic,) and with the gentry of all descriptions ; I have
thus learned the state of the public mind through the interior
of Ireland, arid I am sorry to say that discontent, to a very
alarming degree, prevails amongst the Roman Catholics, and
that the most painful and lamentable dissensions exist, and
are hourly increasing between them and the Protestants.
Is that discontent general among them ? — I think there is
a general feeling of discontent amongst the Roman Catholics,
at the state of the laws respecting them ; I think at the same
time that there is a general degree of satisfaction at the course
pursued by the present government of Ireland towards them ;
I am satisfied that this is the general feeling, from conversa-
tions which I have had, particularly with the Roman Catho-
lic clergy.
In what manner was this discontent described to you to
exist, and with respect to what particular parts of the law ? —
I should not say that it existed so far as my information went,
or the impression which I received, with reference to any par-
ticular part of that general code which creates disabilities in
respect of the Roman Catholics ; there is a discontent pre-
vailing universally amongst them at the general spirit and
tenor of those statutes, by which the whole body is de-
pressed and placed below the Protestants, without reference
to rank, character, property or information.
Did you discover that there was a general acquaintance
A, R. BLAKE, ESQ.. EXAMINED. 119
amongst the Catholic body, with the nature and extent of
the existing penal disabilities ? — There is a general know-
ledge amongst the Catholics, that Catholics as Catholics
are put below Protestants ; they know that the powers of the
state, executive, legislative, and judicial, are by law required
to be administered by persons who, as their qualification for
administering them, must forswear the Roman Catholic reli-
gion ; this produces continual irritation : I speak from con-
versations with the Roman Catholic clergy and the Roman
Catholic gentry as to the feelings of the lower orders; from
personal observation as to those of the middling and higher
orders.
Has the information you have received induced you to form
a belief, that the lower orders take much interest in the pre-
sent state of the penal laws ? — Certainly ; I think, from what
I have collected, that they feel that interest in two ways ; in
the first place, their pride (and there is a sense of pride among
the lower orders as well as among the higher) is wounded by
the sense that they belong to a degraded class ; in the second
place, there is a feeling amongst them, a feeling, however,
which I am persuaded is a mistaken one as applied to the
Judges of Ireland, that they have not an equal chance of an
equal administration of justice with the Protestants ; they do
not consider that a Protestant and, a Roman Catholic stand
upon equal ground, wherever questions arise between, them
which are to be disposed of by authorities exclusively Pro-
testant ; they all consider that there is in the law a feeling of
hostility towards the Roman Catholic religion, which is likely
to pass from the law to those who administer the law, and to
extend from the Roman Catholic religion to those who profess
that religion.
Did it happen to you to havs any conversation with any of the
lower class upon the subject of those laws ? — Not during my
last tour ; I do not think I had much conversation with the
lower orders upon that occasion. I did not wish to speak to
them upon political questions, while engaged in the duties
upon which I then was ; at other times I have.
Did you find, in conversation, that they were sensible of
their political condition? — Certainly ; it is impossible to speak,
at least I have found it so, to a Roman Catholic upon the state
of the law, without perceiving that it creates a sense of hard-
ship and grievance in his mind.
Do they feel much interest in the various proceedings that
take place, with a view of altering the law ? — I cannot speak
to that from personal knowledge, so far as relates to the
lower orders ; but I understand from others, that they mani-
120 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
fest the utmost anxiety to learn what the newspapers contain,
what Parliament is doing, and so forth, whenever a question
relating to the Roman Catholics is under discussion.
Can you state to the Committee the precise disabilities
under which the Catholics now labour ? — For that purpose I
should beg, with great deference, to refer to the Act of 1793,
which the Committee, I presume, are aware, is an act of ge-
neral qualification, subject to particular exceptions. The Act
of 1793 repealed all disabilities to which the Roman Catholics
were liable, subject to particular exceptions.
Can you mention any particular disability which excites
dissatisfaction ? — Where there is a general code of disability,
it is difficult to point out the particular parts of that ge-
neral code which create most dissatisfaction ; the exclusion of
Roman Catholics from that general range of office to which
men of superior talent, property, and education aspire, ne-
cessarily produces amongst them a degree of irritation pro-
portioned to their wealth and intelligence, and which must
therefore go on increasing in proportion as their wealth and
intelligence increase ; thus the powers of property and know-
ledge, which, honoured and directed by the State, are calcu-
lated to promote public happiness and peace, are so dealt with
by the laws of exclusion, as naturally to produce discontent
and disorder. The exclusions which go most home to the ge-
neral-feelings of the people, are those which apply to Parlia-
ment and the Bench. Parliament makes, the Bench adminis-
ters, the laws of the empire ; the Roman Catholics are
excluded from both. This, it is said, is essential to the security
of the Protestants ; then, what becomes of the Catholics ? If
Protestants would feel insecure, were Catholics mixed with
Protestants in Parliament or upon the Bench, what must Ca-
tholics feel, when both are filled by Protestants exclusively ?
The fact is, that they consider these exclusions as rendering
Parliament and the Bench hostile to them, and therefore they
place confidence in neither.
Did you ever find it a matter of complaint that they were
obliged to take what are called the Qualifying Oaths, in all
matters concerning the purchase and devising of landed pro-
perty?—I have not heard that made much matter of com-
plaint ; but it must be matter of disgust to any Roman Ca-
tholic ; and I really should think it must be to any educated
Protestant, to stand in a court of justice and hear the oaths or
declaration which are administered to Protestants, as qualifi-
cations for office. I would state to the Committee, if they
would allow me to do so, what happened to me, when in the
course of the year before last I was appointed to the office I
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 121
now hold in Ireland ; I had some appointments to make to
offices under me ; the persons I appointed were Protestants ;
they went to qualify with me; I had to qualify first, because
out of my right theirs was derived ; I qualified, by taking an
oath, which commenced with a declaration that I professed
the Roman Catholic religion ; I abjured all those doctrines
which have been erroneously imputed to that religion ; and
having concluded, the persons who acted under my authority,
who derived their offices from my grant, who existed as officers
at my will, were obliged to swear that I was an idolater ; were
obliged to commence their qualification by declaring that the
religion professed by the person from whom they derived their
appointments was superstitious and idolatrous. These tests
are calculated to excite very unfortunate feelings ; they pro-
duce in those who take them a feeling of contempt for those
who are called idolaters, and a feeling in those who are called
idolaters, that they are unjustly and cruelly treated.
Is it not a matter of complaint, the tenets that Catholics are
obliged to abjure in the oaths they take ? — I have heard it
complained of; but candour obliges me to say, that there is
in history proof that among some Roman Catholics some
very obnoxious tenets were formerly held ; such as the de-
posing power; and in my humble judgment, a Roman Catho-
lic ought not to feel offended, if he be called upon to disclaim
doctrines or positions which strike at the civil independence of
the state ; and which, though they never formed any part of
the Roman Catholic faith, were yet at one time taught by au-
thorities in the Roman Catholic church ; but these doctrines are
now universally exploded in these countries ; and I should cer-
tainly wish to see one simple oath of allegiance established for
all the King's subjects, Protestant and Roman Catholic. I
must add, that I never heard a Roman Catholic object to that
part of the oath prescribed by the Act of 1793, by which the
Roman Catholic pledges himself to support the Protestant
government, and solemnly disclaims any intention of attempt-
ing to substitute a Catholic for the Protestant establishment.
Do not Catholics experience great inconvenience, and have
they not sometimes experienced serious injury, from the man-
ner in which they are required to take those oaths, and from
the difficulty of preserving the evidence of having taken them?
—I have heard that stated as matter of complaint, but I am
not aware of any practical injury arising from the state of the
law in that respect.
Are they not obliged to take them at sessions or courts of
justice? — You are obliged, when you are appointed to office,
122 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
to take the qualifying oaths within a certain time before cer-
tain courts.
The affidavits are made matter of record? — The oaths
which you take are not affidavits, they are tests which you
subscribe, and which remain on record.
Are not those records kept, particularly in the country, in
a very negligent manner ? — I cannot state that ; I am not aware
of the care given to those records.
Can you give the Committee any information with regard
to the proportion which the Catholic population bears to the
Protestant? — I cannot of my own knowledge; any opinion
which I may have upon that subject is formed, in some degree,
with reference to the returns lately made to the Commis-
sioners of Education ; returns, however, which do not afford
any thing like certain data, with respect to the proportion
which the uneducated part of the Roman Catholic population
bears to the educated.
In general, from the information you have acquired, do you
feel any reason to doubt the accuracy of the common mode of
assuming the proportion that the Catholics bear to Protest-
ants, to be in the ratio of six to one? — I must confess I am
rather disposed to doubt that ; I should think not six, perhaps
five ; but I speak very loosely. The Committee would, I sup-
pose, wish to have opinions entitled to carry some degree of
authority with them, which mine really are not, upon that
subject.
Have you turned your attention to the circumstances which
exist with regard to the management of landed property in
Ireland ? — My duties as Chief Remembrancer of Ireland re-
quire me in some degree, in rather an extensive degree, to
attend to the management of landed property ; all the estates
which are under the control of the court of exchequer through
receivers, are under my immediate direction ; all sales which
take place, take place under my direction ; in that way I have
some opportunities of seeing what the state of landed property
is, the value of it, how managed, how rents are collected, and
so forth.
What appears to you to be the case, with regard to the rate
of rent that has been required, as to its being a proper rate
or an excessive rate ?— Perhaps I should answer that question
best, by stating one or two facts ; since my appointment to
office in Ireland, I have anxiously attended to the state of the
receiver's accounts ; I found when I was appointed those ac-
counts very much in arrear, and when I got in the accounts I
found the rents very much in arrear ; upon inquiry it appeared
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED, 123
to me, that the arrears were generally occasioned by the very
high rate at which land had been let, and in consequence of
that, I recommended in the case of lands in the hands of the
court, where the persons to whom those lands belonged were
persons for whom the court had a right to act, as infants and
persons of that description, or where general consents could
be obtained, that the state of the property should be examined,
that inquiry should be made as to the rate at which the lands
were let, and where it was found that the land was let very
high, that abatements should be made, and that those abate-
ments should be retrospective — so far as it should appear upon
inquiry, that the rents which had been reserved were for the
past period beyond those which the tenants could fairly pay ;
that recommendation has been acted upon very much, and the
result is, that the rents having been reduced, the lands are
now let on what appear to be fair and reasonable terms, such
terms as enable the tenant to pay to his landlord a fair rent
for the enjoyment of the land, and enable himself to live by
it ; these rents are paid pretty regularly. The tenants have
also been relieved from the old arrear, so far as it appeared
to have been produced by their holding at an exorbitant
rent ; this has produced a very good effect ; the arrears lay as
an incumbrance upon them, pressing them down, and dis-
couraging them altogether; since they have been relieved
from it they have become more active, their energies have
revived, and their rents are paid.
Have many instances come before you of severity of con-
duct, in enforcing the payment of rent, -by distress or other-
wise ? — I have found generally, I think, that distress for rent
is more common in Ireland than in England ; I think it is a
rare thing in England to see cattle in pound for rent, but in
travelling through Ireland you scarcely see a pound without
some wretched horses, or cows, or sheep in it, which you are
told have been put there for rent. I think a pound thus filled
one of the most distressing objects that strikes the eye in Ire-
land.
Have instances come before you of the sub-letting of land
to any great extent ? — Yes.
Do you find that to be at all a general practice ? — Very ge-
neral, and as mischievous as it is general.
In what way do you consider it to be mischievous ? — I do
not think that the man who sub-lets, has that sort of feeling
towards the persons to whom he lets, that the proprietors of
the land would have; at least that the proprietor of the land
in England would have. I know that, from my own experience
124 A, R. BLAKE, ESQ.. EXAMINED.
of the manner in which landed property is managed in this
country.
Is not that system of sub-letting carried on in succession,
from one sub-tenant to another sub-tenant, in many cases in a
long series? — I have known, I think, two or three persons in-
tervene, between the owner of the land and the occupier of
the soil.
Do you know whether this practice is carried on with the
consent of the landlords? — I believe the contrary, if by the
question is meant the head landlords ; and it has occurred to
me, that it is a subject that calls for legislative interference.
What difficulty have landlords encountered in preventing
it? — Unless landlords introduce covenants into the leases
which they grant, to prevent sub-letting, they cannot prevent
it ; and as it is a principle of the law of England to favour
commerce, if you introduce a covenant against under-letting
or assignment, and you once permit an assignment or an un-
der-letting, the covenant is gone for ever, even though you
should expressly restrict the waver to the particular case.
Do you mean, that if you wave it in the case of A. the
waver will hold good in the case of B. ? — Yes; I will put a
case: suppose I grant a lease to A., with a proviso in it, that
A. shall not assign without my leave ; A. assigns to B., and I
consent to that ; B. may go on assigning afterwards, without
my consent.
Does not receiving of rent from a sub-tenant deprive you
of every remedy that you may have attempted to secure by
covenant ? — It may, or it may not.
In cases where landlords have done no act to wave their
right, and have appealed to courts of justice to enforce their
covenant, have they not met with great difficulties in doing
so? — I can only speak to that point, with reference to my
practice when at the bar, and my practice at the bar was not
of that description that could bring me much acquainted with
cases of the character alluded to ; but I conceive a landlord
must always find difficulties, so long as the principle and po-
licy of the law be in favour of assignment. Whatever the opi-
nion of a court may be, as to the expediency of it, they are
bound by the policy as settled by decisions ; it has very fre-
quently occurred to me, that there is in the English statute
book, a statute which is very familiar to every lawyer, the sta-
tute of Quia emptores, a principle which might be acted upon
and extended to Ireland, so as to correct this mischief; the
statute of Quia emptores was passed in England, for the pur-
pose of preventing sub-infeudation of manors, that sub-infeu-
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 125
dation of manors producing in England the mischief which
sub-letting now produces in Ireland.
Is it your opinion, derived either from your own experience,
or the information you possess, that a landlord would expe-
rience very great difficulty in devising covenants, upon the ef-
ficiency of which he could rely, for the purpose of preventing
sub-letting? — I think he would find difficulties, creating al-
most an impossibility.
Are you of opinion that the taking away the power of dis-
tress from the middle-man, and giving it only to the head
landlord, would answer any beneficial object? — I think it
would, because it would relieve the unfortunate occupier from
double or treble distresses ; but there is a practice which pre-
vails very much in letting property in London for building,
which if it were made an universal practice by law in Ireland,
would I think, in a great degree, cure the evil that I have al-
luded to, and which is alluded to in the question put to me.
In London, where a person possessed of any very extensive
property makes a lease to a builder, he agrees with the builder
to join with him in making sub-leases, so that the lessees shall
be his tenants, and not the tenants of the builder ; thus the
rent which originally extended over five thousand feet, becomes
apportioned among houses, covering fifteen feet, twenty feet,
forty feet, and so on, and the tenant getting a lease to which
the head landlord is a party at an apportioned rent, paying
that rent whether to the head landlord or to the builder, ac-
cording to the reservation in his lease, is secure : I think that
would afford a principle for legislation as to Ireland ; I mean,
that all sub-letting should be prohibited, unless the landlord
be a party.
Do the modes come under your knowledge, which are most
resorted to by landlords in Ireland, for preventing sub-let-
ting ? — I cannot speak to that question ; I am not acquainted
with the modes they have resorted to ; I suppose covenants.
Has it come under your knowledge, that it is ever the prac-
tice to let at a certain rent, that rent not being intended to be
received, and a covenant being entered into on the part of the
landlord, not to take that rent in the event of the tenant not
sub-letting ? — I have heard of such attempts to prevent sub-
letting, but I should think the attempt would be very likely to
fail ; very nice questions of law or of equity would arise upon
it. There might be a question, whether the difference of rent
should be considered in the nature of a penalty, and if it is
to be considered in the nature of a penalty, whether an act
done with a different intent might not nevertheless for ever
wave it.
12G A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
You say, that you never heard that oath complained of, by
which persons of the Roman Catholic persuasion are required
to disclaim using any privilege they obtain to the injury of the
established religion of the state? — Never.
You have, as being of an old Roman Catholic family in Ire-
land, had much opportunity of intercourse with the body of
the Roman Catholics ; have you had opportunities of very
great communication with the Roman Catholic clergy in Ire-
land?— I have.
Have you had opportunities of speaking to them on sub-
jects connected with their religion, as it affects the State? —
Frequently.
Upon the entire of your communication with the clergy, and
with the laity of the Roman Catholic body, have you any rea-
son to suspect that there is any wish or object on their part,
hostile to the Protestant establishment of the country? — I
never found amongst the Roman Catholics, any feeling of
hostility to the establishment, so far as civil rights were con-
cerned ; except a notion that the property of the church was
public property, and was more than the church ought to pos-
sess ; that feeling I have perceived amongst some Roman Ca-
tholics, but not more than amongst Protestants.
Did you ever perceive any feeling or disposition to have
transferred to their own body the property of the established
church? — 'Whether the clergy, as men operated upon by the
natural feelings of men, would wish it, I cannot state, other-
wise than by conjecture ; as to the laity, I believe they would
deprecate it very much ; I have heard the clergy themselves
declare that they would not wish it, and I dare say when they
said so, they spoke what they felt and thought at the moment ;
but if the offer was made to them, one would not answer for
its being refused.
Have you any means of forming a judgment, whether the
Roman Catholic clergy would be pleased, if they were not sup-
posed to be surrendering the principles of the laity, to accept
a provision from the State ? — My opinion certainly is, that ac-
companied with the settlement of the Roman Catholic ques-
tion, and so regulated as not to prejudice their independence,
they would receive a provision from the State with gratitude ;
that is the opinion which I have formed from conversations
with them, particularly with the superior clergy ; and my
own opinion is, that it is a thing which, in the event of a set-
tlement of the Catholic question, would be most desirable.
Do you think such a provision being made for them would
be attended with any beneficial effect, in attaching the lower
class of people to the state and government of the country? —
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 127
I think it would produce a good feeling amongst them ; it
would make them understand, that their church was not
looked upon with any hostile feeling, but the contrary ; I think
it would also be a very great relief to them, because I be-
lieve that the dues which are collected from the lower class
of people by the Roman Catholic clergy are felt very heavily;
I do not mean to censure the Roman Catholic clergy for col-
lecting those dues, they are their only means of subsistence ;
but I believe the payment of them is often felt very severely
by the lower orders. The members of the Committee may re-
collect what passed in the county of Galway, when the ribbon
system spread so much there; they will probably recollect^
that one of the grievances complained of was the amount of
the dues paid to the Roman Catholic clergy ; they were com-
plained of as much as, or at least in common with the tithes.
Do you think, that the settlement of what you call the Ro-
man Catholic question, and the making a provision for the
Roman Catholic clergy, such as they would be willing to ac-
cept of, would, or not, be calculated to give additional secu-
rity to the Protestant establishment in Ireland? — I think that
settlement, upon wise and sound principles, would be above all
others a measure calculated to give strength to the establish-
ment, and repose to the country ; I think the present state of
the law is obviously erroneous ; it is calculated not to secure,
but to endanger the establishment, it creates bad feelings, and
affords no security against them. The Act of 1793 took things
at the wrong end ,• it elevated the lower orders, and left the
higher in a state of depression. The security of the Protest-
ants in Ireland is in the strength of property against num-
bers ; what you have done is to grant to the Roman Catholics
a privilege in which number tells against property, and to
withhold a privilege in which property tells against number ;
you allow the lowest orders of the people to vote, and you do
not allow the higher orders to sit. I certainly should consider,
in the settlement of the Catholic question, if ever it is to be
settled, that the qualification for the exercise of the elective
franchise in counties ought to be reviewed and altered.
Do you think that a raising of the qualification that should
entitle the freeholder to vote, would be calculated to meet the
mischief you have adverted to ?. — I think it would in a very
great degree ; though I am a Roman Catholic, 1 speak with a
sincere desire, that whenever the Catholic question is settled,
the rights of the established church should be secured ; and I
think they would be secured in proportion as you increased
the political power of property, converted public discontent
128 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
into satisfaction, and engaged the Catholics in the service of
the State, by adequate honours and rewards. This would
attract all the hopes and desires of the Catholics to the State,
and would counteract any bias they might have against the
Church, which is connected with the State by an indissoluble
union, and must therefore stand or fall with it.
Do you think that raising the qualification for the exercise
of the elective franchise, if it was accompanied with the set-
tlement of the great question you allude to, would be very
unpopular amongst the body of Roman Catholics ? — My opi-
nion is that it would not ; it is possible that against that, as
against any thing else, a cry for a moment could be raised,
but I do not think that any permanent feeling of discontent
would be produced by it.
Have you in your observations as to the state of the country
in Ireland, from what you have yourself seen and learned in
communication with others, had any reason to think that the
want of a respectable yeomanry is amongt the evils that that
country labours under ? — I think it is one main cause of the
evils that the country labours under ; and my notion in recom-
mending a change in the qualification for the exercise of the
elective franchise, is materially influenced by the hope, that
it would induce gentlemen who wish to have political influ-
ence in Ireland, instead of parcelling out their land amongst
a mob of wretched cottiers, to raise up and encourage the
growth of a respectable yeomanry in the country.
Are you of opinion that any mischief which might grow
from any diminution of the authority of the landlord, that
might arise from the improved description of tenantry and
the independence of the tenantry that would be produced by
such a measure, would be completely counterbalanced by the
benefit that would arise from the establishment of such an
independent body in the country ? — I think it would, because
the power which would exist would be a power to be exercised
by persons having something of a stake in the country, which
the mere forty-shilling freeholders have not.
Are you of opinion that it would take them from their sub-
jection to the interference of the clergy, and in the next place,
give them, as owners of property in the country, an inde-
pendent personal interest ? — My notion is, that if the Catho-
lic question were settled, and the freehold qualification raised,
the Roman Catholic clergy would no longer be tempted to ex-
ercise political power at elections ; or if they were disposed
to do so, that they would not have a body upon which they
could act as at present, and that it would induce those gen-
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 129
tlemen who wish to have political power through freeholders,
to create freeholders of a respectable class, who would be the
means of preserving order in the country.
Do you think that such an arrangement would be injurious
to those fair interests which the Roman Catholics are en-
titled to have in the country ? — My notion is, that the Roman
Catholics ought not to have an interest according to their
number, but according to their property ; under that impres-
sion I think that it would not injure any power or influence
which they ought fairly to have in the State ; coupled, how-
ever, with measures which would place them in what I con-
ceive to be the situation and estimation in which their pro-
perty ought to place them.
From the nature of your view of the state of Ireland, par-
ticularly of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, if this Roman
Catholic measure were conceded, and were accompanied by a
respectable provision for their clergy, and by this measure
that has just been mentioned of raising the qualification of
freeholders ; and if the laws in that amended state were fairly
and justly applied, so as to give the Roman Catholics a rea-
sonable share of political power and influence in proportion
to their property and their claims, do you believe that we
should have a reasonable prospect of peace and tranquillity
being restored to that country ? — I certainly think we should,
and for this reason ; I do not conceive there is any political
curse upon Ireland that is to prevent Ireland from being as
happy and peaceable as other countries, if instead of attempt-
ing to fit the people to the Constitution, the Constitution be
fitted to the people.
What effect would such a state of things described in the
last question, have upon the connexion between Ireland and
Great Britain ? — If I did not think that it would have the
effect of confirming that connexion, and rendering it, I hope,
eternal, I would myself, though a Roman Catholic, be against
it ; because I do think that the Roman Catholics, in their pre-
sent state of connexion with England, are much happier and
much better off than they could ever be separated from England,
although they should become the ascendant body, in all re-
spects, in Ireland ; they derive advantages from their con-
nexion with England, which Ireland could never afford them
in a separate state.
If a provision were made for the Roman Catholic clergy by
the State, is it your opinion, that the influence of the priest-
hood over their flocks would be thereby materially dimi-
nished ? — I do not think any wholesome influence that the
priest has over his flock would be diminished.
K
130 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Have the Catholic clergy at present any other provision
than that which they derive from the voluntary payments of
their flocks ? — None.
The fee upon marriage is one of their principal resources ?
—It is.
It is usually that for which the highest price is paid?— I
understand so.
In your opinion, has that circumstance any influence in pro-
ducing early and improvident marriages ? — There one must
speak again with reference to the nature of man ; if the priest
gains by early marriages, there is nothing more likely to en-
courage them.
Is it not the opinion that such is the effect of it ?— I have
heard it stated; I have heard the priests assert the con-
trary.
Are you acquainted with the manner in which freehold votes
are very generally made throughout Ireland now ; namely,
that the freeholds are granted by the landlord, and that the
freehold leases are, in point of fact, retained always in the
possession of the landlord, and produced only at the time
when there is a registry, or when there may be occasion to
produce them ? — I was not aware of the fact.
You have no reason to believe that that practice has ever
prevailed? — I am not aware of it; it may prevail, without
my knowing any thing about it.
Does your experience enable you to say, whether it has been
the usage for the Catholic freeholders generally to vote at
elections according to the wish of their Protestant landlord ?
— Formerly, I believe it used ; latterly, religious feelings, I
am told, frequently carry the tenant away from the landlord,
particularly through the activity of the clergy, who are sti-
mulated by the increasing eagerness of the laity for emanci-
pation.
Do you believe that, in consequence of the diffusion of
knowledge amongst the lower orders of Catholics, the exer-
cise of a free independent opinion is more likely to prevail,
than upon former occasions ? — I think there is, every day,
more knowledge and more property spreading through the Ca-
tholics, and of course, in proportion as it does so, a more
independent feeling will arise among them, and a keener sense
of the political inferiority in which they at present stand ; but
with respect to that description of tenantry which has been
induced to vote against their landlords, I should not be in-
clined to think that it was very much from a feeling of inde-
pendence of the landlord ; I should- rather attribute it to a
disposition to oppose those whom they consider hostile to
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 131
their religion, a disposition which the clergy, of course, have
the best means of exciting and calling into play.
Is it your opinion, that the existence of the laws, as they
now affect the Roman Catholics of Ireland, has a tendency
to produce a peculiar degree of union amongst that class as
Roman Catholics ? — I have no doubt of it ; they are bound
together by the common sense of a common grievance.
Do you not conceive, in consequence of the existence of that
union, if it should be acted upon at elections generally, and
more especially in counties, the result of it must be, to give
a decisive influence to the Catholic body, as things now stand
in the counties ? — I think it would give to the Catholic body a
degree of influence beyond what the just weight of their pro-
perty would otherwise entitle them to ; it enables active Ca-
tholics, clergy and laity, to alienate the lower orders from
their landlords, and through their numbers to carry all before
them, driving Protestant property, when opposed to them,
utterly out of the field.
Is it your opinion, then, that the influence of religion, and
the priest, would be stronger than the influence of the Pro-
testant landlord ? — Speaking from facts, I should say, yes. I
have heard of acts of interference at the Dublin election, the
Lei trim election, and the Sligo election, and other places.
Have you, in your knowledge, ever met with any objection
being taken to the purchase of land, on account of the title
being derived from forfeiture ? — Never.
Have you known of much property being invested by
Roman Catholics in the purchase of landed estates in Ireland?
— I left my native county, the county of Galway, about twenty
years ago ; I returned to it in the last year ; I found there a
new race of landed proprietors, principally Roman Catholics ;
the Roman Catholics are persons very much engaged in com-
merce ; they have also, within the last thirty years, entered very
much into professions. They make money in commerce and pro-
fessions, that money settles into land, and thus the landed
interest of the Roman Catholics is increasing to a great
extent.
Do you know whether any of the landed estates so pur-
chased, were lands that had been forfeited, and the owners of
which, who have sold to Catholics had become possessed of
them, in consequence of the forfeiture of the original proprie-
tor ?-— A great deal of it must, when it is considered to what
extent forfeitures took place in Ireland ; I should say of my
own family, we forfeited; we lost considerable property; we
have since purchased other property, which we will not give
up in a vain pursuit of the old.
K 2
132 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Is the Catholic landed interest very much interested in the
present settlement of property in Ireland ? — To the extent of
the interest which the Catholics have in the land, they are of
course equally interested in preserving property, with the
Protestants.
Besides purchases of estates, has not a great deal of Ca-
tholic money been lent on mortgages ? — A great deal ; persons
of that description in Ireland, as well as in England, are now
seeking for good mortgages.
Are not the Catholic tenantry very much interested in the
existing leases? — In proportion to the interest which they
have under their leases.
When you speak of raising the qualification of electors, do
you, in your idea, limit it only to freehold leases ; or would
you say, that in a county, the qualification of a man having
the fee of his forty-shillings freehold, should be raised also? —
I confine myself entirely to persons who derive under leases ;
if a man had the ownership of property, I should say he ought
to be permitted to vote, because he is the proprietor, the
leaseholder is not ; and I take that to be one of the great
distinctions between the forty-shilling freeholders in England
and in Ireland ; in England, a forty-shilling freeholder in
general has a property of his own to that extent ; in Ireland,
it is quite the contrary.
Supposing a lessor pays to his landlord a rent of five pounds
a-year, he ought to be able to get out of that property, a rent
of seven pounds a-year, in order to give him a forty- hilling
interest in it ?— Certainly.
Do you believe that that is generally the case with respect
to the lower class of freeholders ? — I believe quite the con-
trary. In general they pay what is originally a rack rent for
the land, they then build mud huts upon it, and if they make
out of the land a profit of forty shillings a-year, a profit pro-
duced by the sweat of their brow, they reconcile to themselves
to swear that they have an interest in it to the extent of forty
shillings a-year, whereas the gain is produced not through an
interest in the land, but through their labour.
So that in point of fact, when their interest comes to be
examined by this test, it is not an interest bond fide of forty
shillings a-year ? — Quite the contrary ; I referred in a former
part of my evidence, to cases that were before me, upon
receivers' accounts in Ireland ; I found frequently, that a gren:
mass of tenants, who were in arrear in consequence of holding
at exorbitant rents, had sworn to forty-shilling freeholds.
Have you ever considered what amount of qualification for
the exercise of the elective franchise would suit the present
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 133
state of Ireland ? — I am speaking entirely with reference to
leaseholders ; and speaking with regard to leaseholders, I may
perhaps be considered too aristocratical in my notion, but I
should say the qualification ought to be, to the extent of
twenty pounds a-year ; having reference to another object
which I mentioned in a former part of my evidence, that of
creating, if possible, in Ireland, a respectable yeomanry, and
preventing the sub-division of land ; but I have thought more
of the principle than of a standard for regulating it.
Do you think, generally speaking, that the forty-shilling
freeholders exercise any free choice at elections ? — My opinion
is, that they have none.
How do you think they are controlled ? — I believe they are
controlled either by an absolute landlord, or by the sort of in-
terference through religious feelings which I have already
mentioned.
Can you state to the Committee, the kind of control that
is exercised over those forty-shilling freeholders, so as to com-
mand their votes ? — I can speak only from hearsay ; the land-
lord of course has the power of distress ; the priest or other
partisan may act upon their religious feelings or prejudices.
Do you believe that those measures, which you have stated
as likely to be beneficial with respect to the raising the quali-
fication voters, ought not to be considered as completely
dependent upon being combined with their complete emanci-
pation ; that is, do you conceiv6 that the raising the qualifi-
cations, and depriving, of course, the forty-shilling freeholder
of his right, could be effected without occasioning the most
serious discontent, unless it were accompanied with the other
measure you have suggested ? — I have already, I think, stated
an opinion, which must be considered as an answer in the
affirmative to that question ; at the same time, I should wish
to understand, what is meant by emancipation, in the ques-
tion now put. If by emancipation, is meant the universal
removal . of all disabilities, my opinion does not go to that
extent ; but it does go to the extent of representation in Par-
liament, and admission to the Bench. I do not think, that if
representation in Parliament were conceded, and the Bench
were open, that there would be much objection to some extent
of exclusion from political office ; the other exclusions, from
Parliament and the Bench, are the exclusions particularly
felt.
What should you say with respect to corporate offices ? —
Corporate offices were not in my view particularly ; with
regard to corporate offices, there is at present a means of
134 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
relief to Roman Catholics, which is not generally known ;
the Crown may exercise a dispensing power in corporations.
Have you known it exercised ? — I have not known it exer-
cised, and I do not know that the Crown could be well advised
now to exercise it ; because a class of statutes must con-
stitute a policy calculated to fetter the discretion of the
Crown.
If the law were to be altered in other respects, so as not to
form an exclusion from Parliament and the Bench, would not
that affect your opinion as to the propriety of exercising* a
discretion in corporate offices ? — It certainly would ; there
would be no longer existing in the law that policy, or sup-
posed policy against the exercise of it, which the present
state of the law, I think, creates.
Do you consider that it would be sound and good policy to
leave at the discretion of the Crown, or of the advisers of the
Crown, the exercise of this power, in such corporations as it
might think fit, without its taking^ place at all ? — I did not
mean to express any opinion upon that ; I only mention the
fact of the law creating a difference between the two cases of
offices under the Crown and corporate offices ; I think exclu-
sion from corporate offices may be felt, and would be felt as a
very severe grievance ; but if you can produce a beneficial
effect in any way, I do not think the theory is of so much import-
ance. With respect again to Ireland, I believe there is a
misapprehension, very general, upon another point ; I believe
it is generally understood, that the Test Act is in Ireland
repealed ; the sacramental test is not repealed in Ireland ; it
is only repealed as to Protestant dissenters ; a circumstance
which forms a curious principle in the law. A protestant of
the church of Ireland may be ruined unless he receives the
sacrament, but a dissenter is safe. The Act of 1782, which
relieved the Protestant dissenters from the Test Act, provided
only that His Majesty's Protestant dissenting subjects should
not be bound by it ; and I apprehend it would be necessary
to plead, that you were a Protestant dissenter, if an action was
commenced against you, and you wished to have the benefit of
the statute.
Do you then think the Catholics generally would acquiesce
in the proposal of raising the qualification for voting, pro-
vided it was accompanied with Catholic emancipation, or with
the admission to Parliament and the Bench ? — My belief is,
that they would ; a belief founded upon extensive communi-
cation with them ; but I speak only of the principle of a rise,
not of the extent to which the rise should go. I have not dis-
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 135
cussed the amount at which the qualification should be fixed
with many persons.
Do not you think a considerable outcry would be raised in
Ireland, if it was proposed to raise the qualification of forty-
shilling freeholders ? — If the forty«shilling freeholders were
persons of independent property, exercising through their
property a free choice, I think it would produce a very serious
outcry ; but I do not think they are persons of a description
likely to have much feeling upon the subject.
Do you apply the observations you have made with regard
to forty-shilling freeholds, to forty-shilling freeholders in
cities and towns 1 — Certainly not, for a very obvious reason ;
I speak of those places in which property is the qualification ;
if in cities and counties property were the entire qualification,
I would have it raised there; but, if property be not the
entire qualification, then the question stands there upon quite
different grounds ; if a man who serves an apprenticeship of
seven years be entitled to vote without regard to property,
there is no reason why the freeholder of forty shillings a-year
should not vote also.
In pointjof fact you mean to limit your observations to coun-
ties ? — To counties.
Do you know whether in point of fact the description of
forty-shilling freeholders who vote in cities or counties, are in
point of property the same description of persons who vote as
forty-shilling freeholders in counties at large? — I apprehend
quite otherwise.
Are they not in many instances merchants and persons of
property, who acquire forty-shilling freeholds in order to
give them a political right ? — The persons who are forty-shil-
ling freeholders in cities, are generally speaking merchants or
respectable tradesmen ; they are not paupers, as most of the
people who call themselves forty-shilling freeholders in coun-
ties are.
In case the forty- shilling franchise were to be altered in
cities and towns in the same way as you have described in
counties at large, would not the practical effect be to throw
the return altogether into the hands of the freemen ? — I can-
not say that I am sufficiently acquainted with the state of pro-
perty in corporate towns to answer that question.
Have you ever formed any rough calculation of what num-
ber of persons in Ireland, a change of the qualification to
twenty pounds would disfranchise? — I have not considered
the extent to which it would go ; but I have considered the
class to which it would go ; and the more extensive that class,
the more necessary in my judgment the change.
136 A. 11. BLAKE, ESa. EXAMINED.
From your experience, are you able to say whether the feel-
ing of the great body of the lower orders of the people is
strong and keen upon the subject of what is generally called
the Catholic question ? — I believe it to be so ; I do not think I
ever spoke to a Roman Catholic, high or low, that did not be-
tray something like irritation upon the subject.
Do you think that feeling begets any want of confidence in
the administration of justice in any of its departments, parti-
cularly amongst the magistrates? — I am acquainted only with
the superior courts of Ireland; I may have a little feeling
upon the subject, as belonging to one of them, but I am con-
scientiously satisfied that they administer justice as purely and
honestly as any courts upon the face of the earth. If I were
to say what influence I think the Catholic disqualifications
have upon them, I should say it was to turn their feelings in
a direction favourable to the Roman Catholics ; the lower or-
ders however think the contrary ; they think that the Judges
being all Protestants, have a leaning against the Roman Ca-
tholics ; they consider the exclusion of the Roman Catholics
unfair ; that the object of it is to give the Protestants an un-
due advantage in the distribution of justice.
You are speaking of the higher courts ? — Yes, with which
alone I am really acquainted.
Can you state what effect the plan of raising" the qualifica-
tion would have upon the Protestant interest of the country ?
I think the Protestants constitute, to a very considerable ex-
tent, the landed proprietory interest of Ireland ; and there-
fore, in proportion as you increase the power of the pro-
prietory interest, and diminish the power of mere numbers
without property, you strengthen the Protestant interest. At
present the Protestants insist upon the ascendency, the Ro-
man Catholics seek equality ; this equality, to the extent of
their property, they ought to have, but no farther ; if equality
to. this extent were established, it would, I think, satisfy the
Roman Catholics, and certainly would not prejudice the Pro-
testants ; it would take from the Catholic multitude the vast
political power which they now possess, and would open to
the Catholic gentry the capacity of enjoying another species
of political power which they do not now possess, the capacity
of sitting in Parliament, a capacity however from which they
could only derive any benefit through the will of the property,
Protestant and Catholic, of the country. This would not
shake the true legitimate ascendency which belongs to the
Protestants, in proportion as they form the preponderating
proprietory interest of the country ; on the contrary, it would
secure that ascendency on a rock, upon the genuine sound
A. K, BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 137
principle of the British constitution, which makes property
the basis of all political power and ascendency in the state ;
while the Protestants claim ascendency on other ground, the
Catholics will consider it hostile, and oppose it; but once put
on its true ground, the hostile character would cease, Protest-
ants and Roman Catholics might then regard each other as
fellow-citizens, and uniting as such, render their common
country happy arid prosperous.
Can you state whether the subject is viewed in that way, at
present, by the Protestant proprietory of the country? — It
would not be right for me to mention names ; but I have cer-
tainly conversed with gentlemen in Ireland, who I know have
been adverse to what are called the Catholic claims, who told
me they would be favourable to a settlement upon that prin-
ciple.
The twenty pounds freeholder would be in a situation to
exercise his franchise, without any regard to his landlord? —
I should rather think the contrary ; I think there must be a
connexion between the landlord and the tenant at all times,
and that the tenant would be inclined, though not from the
same slavish feeling as at present, still to follow his land-
lord's interest ; I have found that to be very much the case
in England.
You mean, that it would be a more honourable feeling? —
It would be a more honourable feeling ; indeed I should say
that a twenty pound freeholder would feel it more his interest
to go with his landlord, than the mere wretched forty-shilling
freeholder, for he has an interest to secure which the other
has not.
You have stated in a former part of your examination, that
under the present state of the law, there is an impossibility
in framing a covenant by which the landlord can prevent
alienation ? — There is a difficulty approaching to an impos-
sibility.
In looking to an alteration of the law, by way of giving the
landlords an efficient control over their property, can you sug-
gest any regulations which would be calculated to meet that
object ? — I already alluded to the principle of the statute
of Quia emptores ; I should think that regulations might be
framed to give effect to that principle; for instance, if it
were provided by law, that no person should underlet without
the consent of the landlord, that the landlord should be a
party to every lease, or to every sub-lease or sub-contract,
and that the tenant paying a rent according to the reservation
in that sub-lease or sub-contract, should be free and discharged
from all liability ; you would in that way, I think, in a great
138 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
degree prevent sub-letting, because the landlord would not be
very willing to give his consent to sub-letting in such cases ;
and on the other hand, you would prevent one of the present
mischiefs of it, because the sub-tenant would no longer be
subject to those double and treble distresses.
Do you mean that it should be provided by law, that there
should be no sub-letting, without a special consent to sub-let!
—Without the landlord being a party to the instrument by
which the land was sub-let.
And that all sub-letting should be ineffective, unless the
head landlord was a party to it? — That all sub-letting should
be ineffective, unless the head landlord was a party to it ; and
I would go further, and provide that the person attempting to
sub-let otherwise, should be without any remedy fpr the reco-
very of his rent; this, I think, would be an effectual means of
preventing it.
How would you have the power of recovering the rent in a
sub-lease ? — That rent being paid according to the redendum,
the tenant should be freed and discharged.
Supposing the rent is not paid according to the redendum,
it forms part of the landlord's rent, as well as part of the mesne
tenant's rent ; would you give a power of distress both to the
landlord and the mesne tenant ? — No ; only to the person to
whom the rent was made payable.
Would not the landlord be unwilling to join in that ? — I
think he would ; and I think so much the better.
That would go to prevent sub-letting ? — To a certain de-
gree. It constantly occurs in London ; the granting of leases,
to which the head landlord is a party, in which the rent is re-
served either to him or the middle man, and by which the te-
nant paying the rent, is completely discharged.
Then the landlord, in the event of his becoming a party to
such a lease, would have no remedy against his immediate te-
nant ; except his having made a contract with him to that
amount, he would have no power of distress ? — He would have
no power of distress as against that part of the land granted
to the under-tenant, unless to the extent of any rent reserved
by that under-lease to him ; if rent is reserved to the head
landlord, it might be distrained for by the head landlord ; if
not reserved to the head landlord, but to the middle man, it-
might be distrained for by the middle man. I am speaking
very loosely upon these subjects, merely answering at the
moment.
Do the Committee understand you rightly to say, that the
existence of Roman Catholic disqualification is a common
grievance, which enables the priests to exercise an influence
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 139
at an election ? — It creates a feeling of discontent, of a reli-
gious nature, through which feeling the priest is enabled po-
werfully to act at elections, he is enabled to say to them, for
instance, this man is against your religion, this man is for your
religion; lam told, he has said so.
You conceive, that by removing the Roman Catholic dis-
qualification, you would deprive the priest of that power ? —
I do not think I should, entirely ; I should lessen the tempta-
tion to the exercise of it, arid I should diminish the power
also, by setting at rest the Catholic question, and raising the
qualification from 40s. to 20/. a year, or to such sum at least
as would raise the class of freeholders entitled to vote, so as
to render them, in some degree, persons of intelligence and
property, likely to have a will of their own.
Would not the exclusion of all freeholders under 201. a
year, exclude a great number of persons who have considerable
capital on their farms ? — I do not think it would.
The Committee understand you to state, that in cases in
which persons swear to 40s. freeholds, they have, in many
instances, little interest, if any, in the lands ; do not you con-
ceive that even in the case of 20£. freeholds, persons might
swear to those freeholds, who had a very inferior interest in
the lands than that? — I do not think they would ; I think
common decency and shame, and the obvious means of instant
detection, would operate to prevent it ; a man, who comes
to swear to 201. must have some property in his hands.
A man in Ireland, who would have an interest of 20/. is of
a totally different class from the 40s. freeholder ? — Yes.
Would it not, in your apprehension, exclude in towns a con-
siderable number of persons who are householders, who have
not an interest above the rent they pay for their houses, to the
amount of 20/. ? — I have already stated that I do not mean my
observation to apply to towns.
The freehold runs in virtue of residing in a house ; would
it not exclude in towns a very large proportion of persons,
who derive their freeholds from residing in those houses alone,
without any regard to land ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted
with the state of towns to speak upon this subject ; 1 had in
my mind the general appearance of the 40s. freeholders, which
is the appearance of a rabble. There may be persons of re-
spectability having only 40*. freeholds ; there is no general
rule without particular exceptions ; but I think the injury
which they might sustain would be as nothing, compared with
the benefit the state would sustain from the general regu-
lation.
You are not aware that a very large proportion of 40s. free-
140 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ,. EXAMINED.
holders in towns, do derive their freeholds in virtue of holding
houses in towns, without having land ? — No.
Do you apply the 20/. qualification to the rent that the free-
holder pays, or to the profit that he makes ? — I mean that
whatever rent he may pay, to whatever extent he may pay it,
he should be able to swear that he has an interest beyond that
rent, to the amount of 20/. a year ; that if he pays 500/. a
year, the property should be worth 5201.
Would not that have the effect of excluding a very large
number of persons, possessed of considerable capital, com-
pared to the capital of those who now vote ? — I should appre-
hend not, because a capitalist taking land in Ireland, with a
view to improvement, would certainly, if he acted to any ex-
tent, soon gain an interest in it through improvement, to the
amount of 20/. a year.
Do you not conceive that the raising of the franchise to
201. would disqualify, in towns and cities, a large proportion
of the out-freeholders, and would create great discontent and
disturbance in those towns ? — When one is considering any
proposed measure, one is not be governed by the evils which
may be in your way, according to a particular view of it ; you
must look to the right and to the left ; you must judge by
comparison, weighing advantages against advantages, and
disadvantages against disadvantages ; and I think the satis-
faction to be produced by the measure in question would be
much greater, and much more important, than any dissatis-
faction that would be produced by it.
Are you not aware that a great number of 40s. freeholders,
who exercise the right of franchise in Ireland, are not of so
respectable a class as voters from towns ? — I consider the mass
to be mere rabble.
Has not the effect of the Act of the year 1793 very much
tended to induce the landlords to split their land into very
small portions ? — I apprehend, inasmuch as it enabled Ro-
man Catholics to vote at elections, that it has induced land-
lords to make Roman Catholic freeholders ; and as the Roman
Catholics are the most numerous body, they are enabled to
manufacture freeholders to a much greater extent, under the
operation of that Act, than they could before, and conse-
quently to split their land.
If the elective franchise was confined to freeholders of 20/.
a year, would not that have a great effect in consolidating the
land ? — I think it would, and that that would be one of the
benefits that would result from it.
Might not it have the effect of turning adrift a vast num-
ber of people, who now have considerable interest in the
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 141
land ? — The persons who now have an interest in the land
would not, so far as their interest in the land goes, be af-
fected by such Act; it might prevent landlords from creating
new freeholders ; it would not enable the landlord to turn the
present freeholders out.'
Are you aware of the state of property, and sub-division
of property, upon collegiate and bishops' lands, where no
freeholds can be created ? — No, I am not.
Daniel O'Connell, Esquire, called in ; and Examined.
HAVE you had opportunities of becoming acquainted with
the condition of the lower orders of the people of Ireland, in
an extensive district of that country ? — I may venture to say,
that I have had many, and long.
Have you observed any very great increase of numbers in
the districts with which you are acquainted ? — Very great ; I
know many instances, in the remoter parts particularly ; for
example, I know of farms upon which I remember but two
dwellings, I speak of two farms that I have in my mind at
this moment, upon which there are at present, 1 believe,
nearly a hundred families.
Can you inform the Committee, about what period the great
increase of numbers commenced ? — No, because it has been
increasing as long as I recollect ; I was out of Ireland from
the year 1789 till 1795, between France and England.
Was there any great progressive increase of population
throughout the early part of the last century in Ireland, up to
the period of 1789 ? — That I only know as matter of history.
Can you state to the Committee any circumstances, that you
consider as causes of the modern and very great increase of
the population ? — Perhaps it is prejudice, but we have been
apt to attribute it to the relaxation of the penal code in 1778,
which, for the first time since the reign of Queen Anne, en-
abled the Roman Catholics to take leases, and have tenures,
and thereby fix them more to the soil, allowing the produc-
tive qualities of Irish soil to come into operation ; and as I
consider it to be capable of feeding four times the number of
its present inhabitants, I think that the law, allowing the
people to become holders of the soil, must necessarily have
had the effect of increasing the population.
What, under your observation, is the state of the lower
orders in respect to their modes of living? — The state of the
lower orders, in my observation, is such, that it is astonish-
ing to me how they preserve health, and above all, how they
142 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
preserve cheerfulness, under the total privation of any thing
like comfort, and the existence of a state of things that the
inferior animals would scarcely endure, and which they do
not endure in this country.
Is that state of circumstances of the people general through-
out the part you are acquainted with ? — It is general in the
labouring classes throughout a great deal of the part I am
acquainted with ; it is varied by local circumstances in parti-
cular districts, for example, the facilities of procuring firing,
change very much the comfort of the Irish peasant ; in the
richer districts of Tipperary and Limerick, the peasant is a
most miserably circumstanced creature, he wants firing, and
frequently is at a distance from water, in the mountain dis-
tricts particularly ; in the remoter one of Kerry and Cork
there is water in great abundance, and he can have firing
with great facility, and that adds to his comfort much, and
to the duration of human life also.
What particular parts of Ireland do you speak of ? — The
parts of Ireland that I am best acquainted with, are the coun-
ties of Clare, Limerick, Kerry, and Cork ; I have gone that
circuit for many years ; I have some property extensive in
itself, but inconsiderable comparatively in value, in the county
of Kerry, and I am well acquainted with those counties.
What is the general state of the habitations of the lower
class ? — It is impossible, I think, (I express myself strongly,)
it would be extremely difficult to have any thing worse ; the
houses are not even called houses, and they ought not to be ;
they are called cabins, they are built of mud, and covered with
thatch partly, and partly with a surface which they call scraws,
and any continuance of rain necessarily comes in. I have ob-
served at night, however, that there is this advantage in their
being built so there, that where they have firing the entire
house warms, and it is like a stove, and it produces almost
the effect of a vapour bath upon the inhabitants.
What sort of furniture have they in their houses ? — Nothing
that can deserve the name of furniture ; it is a luxury to have
a box to put any thing into ; it is a luxury to have what they
call a dresser for laying a plate upon, or any thing of that
kind: they may have, they generally have little beyond an iron
cast metal-pot, a milk tub which they call a keeler, over
which they put a wicker basket, in order to throw the pota-
toes, water and all, into the basket that the water should run
into this keeler ; that is frequently the extent of their fur-
niture.
With regard to their bedding, what does that consist of ? — •
Nothing but straw and very few blankets in the mountain dis-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 143
tricts ; by the sea they are better off and more comfortable,
they fish occasionally.
Are they without bedsteads ? — In general without bedsteads ;
the entire family sleep in the same compartment ; they call it
a room ; there is some division between it and the part where
the fire is ; they separate the sexes by very slight partitions,
and yet I do not believe, and indeed I am convinced, that that
species of promiscuous lying amongst each other, does not
induce the immorality which one would expect from it ; cer-
tainly no immorality between persons closely related, such a
thing is not heard of.
Have you known any instances in which immorality has
been imputed ? — None at all even imputed ; I do believe the
Irish peasant would destroy himself if he thought it was
seriously imputed to him.
Have they blankets to put over the straw sufficient to cover
it ? — In general not.
Do they sleep in their clothes? — In the county of Kerry
they seldom sleep in their clothes, they are better off in the
remoter parts of it with respect to blankets ; so in the remoter
districts of the county of Cork ; but I have reason to believe,
that in Limerick, and in a portion of Clare, and in parts of
the county of Cork, they sleep in their clothes ; I know that
near Dublin they sleep in their clothes, and that upon recent
investigation, within eight or ten miles of Dublin, out of
fourteen or fifteen families, there were only two found in
which there was a blanket.
Of what description is their ordinary clothing? — In the
southern provinces they wear a frieze jacket, and the breeches
of frieze, the waistcoat generally of flannel ; they are very
ambitious of wearing something of a cloak made of frieze, a
large coat ; any of them that get at all above the world now,
are desirous of having a kind of cotton work called corduroy
trowsers.
Have they stockings generally r — In general they have not,
at least in ordinary use, in those counties I have spoken of ;
neither men nor women do in general wear shoes and stockings,
it is dress and luxury.
Have they sufficient clothes, in case of being wet, to
change? — Speaking of it as a general rule, they have no
clothes to change ; they have none but what they wear at the
moment ; of course, in the various grades of poverty and its
shades, there are differences, but I speak of the general state
of the Irish labouring peasantry.
With respect to their food, of what does it consist ? — Except
on the coast, of potatoes and water during the greater part of
144 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
the year; potatoes and sour milk during another portion;
they use some salt with their potatoes when they have nothing
but water ; on the sea coast they get fish, the children repair
to the shore, and the women and they get shell fish of various
kinds, and indeed various kinds of fish.
Do they suffer any inconvenience in that season of the year
which takes place between the going out of the old potatoes
and the coming in of the new ? — Almost always great distress,
aggravated by the difficulties with respect to tithes. The
Irish Acts enable the peasant to hold a kind of battle with the
tithe owner upon every thing but potatoes ; with other things
he can serve a notice to draw, but with potatoes it is not so ;
there is no statute provision respecting the potato, and then
if the peasant begins to dig his potatoes he is completely at
the mercy of the tithe owner ; and it is right to say, that he
is in general not very harshly dealt with where the clergyman
has the tithe himself ; but when they are in the hands of lay-
men, and frequently persons of the same persuasion with
himself, is very badly dealt with ; if he begins to dig he has
no mode afterwards of defending himself against the demand.
That is, if he begins to dig previous to making an arrange-
ment or bargain for his tithes ? — Yes ; and that is the interval
that takes place between the going out of the old potatoes and
coming in of the new harvest, because the bargain for the
tithe is not made or tendered to him at that early period ; he
has great distress in general at that time.
Have they the means of purchasing potatoes during that
season, if their own stock is exhausted ?— Money is an article
that the Irish peasant knows excessively little of; he has not
the means.
Is there no employment sufficient to afford the means of
acquiring money in cases of difficulty? — Certainly not ; I do
not believe there is in the world a peasantry more ready to
accept small wages for employment than the Irish peasant.
Is there any thing like a demand for constant employment
for the labouring class ? — There is not, according to my
knowledge and experience, even any thing that could be called
an occasional demand ; that is, the demand is so small that it
scarcely deserves the name, it is rather an accidental demand
than even occasional.
Could you give the Committee any idea of the proportion of
the people that are without employment ? — To attempt it
numerically is matter of conjecture, but there certainly is not
one out of twenty employed ; that is, there is nothing like
constant work for that number.
What is the customary wages for a man's labour when
DANIEL O'CONNEL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 145
employed, independently of considerations of rent ?— I cannot
say that, except in the remote district of the county of Kerry,
where I take it to be when there is employment, sixpence a
day without any meal, and four-pence a day with ; and yet I
say that, from perhaps not a very distinct recollection, it is not
more than that. I believe, during 1822, they cheerfully
worked at two-pence a day without victuals, being paid in
money.
Under these circumstances of a want of employment, how
do the people contrive to provide themselves with food ? —
Every man cultivates the food of his own family ; potatoes and
land becomes absolutely necessary therefore for every Irish
peasant, and he cultivates that food, and he makes the rent in
general (I am and have been speaking of the poorer class of
peasantry) by feeding the pig as well as his own family upon
the same food ; and if it be not wrong to call it so, at the same
table, upon the same spot with that pig, he makes the rent,
besides any chance he gets of daily labour.
Is there generally a facility of acquiring land ? — Great diffi-
culty : the lower class of tenantry, the mere peasant, it is
painful to look for rent from, and he is supposed to injure the
farm, and he does to a certain extent, and he has no capital to
reinstate it, and they find therefore great difficulty in getting
land, a difficulty increasing with the number of the popu-
lation.
What rate of rent is charged on this class of occupiers ? — I
cannot state that; the county of Clare subsists a good deal
upon what are called conacres, that has been introduced but
lately at all into Kerry, and not at all into my part ; and in my
part of it, the land is reckoned by the quantity of cows grazing ;
'it is divided into plough lands and gneeves.
What is the conacre system ? — I arnlibt very familiar with
it ; as far as my knowledge of it reaches, it is this; I speak,
however, with diffidence of it ; it is a right to plant a crop,
paying sometimes six, eight, or ten pounds an acre for that
right by the single year, and the crop is detained till that rent
is made up, in whatever way it can be made up; but then I
should take a peasant to be wealthy that took an acre.
How does the peasant pay his rent who takes land by the
year ? — The lowest class of peasant pays it by the price of his
pig and his labour, whatever chance of labour he has ; the
better class than that pay the rent by the produce of butter ;
in the mountain districts of oats, in the district something
better than that ; in the remote parts of the county of Cork
they pay their rent by the produce of barley, and in the richer
146 DANIEL O'CONNEIL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
parts, the better farmers by the produce of wheat ; by the
produce, I mean the money produced.
How does a man pay the rent for a conacre ?— I am not
prepared to answer that ; I am not sufficiently acquainted ;
but I should take it in general by labour, and by the sale of
the pig.
From a former part of your evidence, it would appear there
is difficulty in finding labour ? — The only places which I am
at all acquainted with conacres are in the vicinity of towns ;
my own residence is necessarily, the far greater part of the
year, in Dublin, and my professional avocations are sufficient
to prevent me from being acquainted with the minuter details
of farming.
Are there not a great number of the lower orders that cannot
even obtain conacres for the potatoes ? — Yes, that is the im-
pression upon my mind.
In what manner do they contrive to live? — I cannot tell
that ; I speak of there being such, not of my own knowledge,
but as a general impression.
Have circumstances occurred, within your knowledge, of
hardship, in respect of distraining for rent ? — Very many.
Is it a general hardship in the country ?— It is a general
grievance, very much aggravated by the necessity of sub-
lettings ; there are frequently six and seven between the pro-
prietor of the fee and the actual occupier ; and whenever any
two of those happen to differ in the state of their accounts,
the man who claims more than the other has paid, or is will-
ing to pay, settles the dispute, by distraining the actual occu-
pier ; and that occurs, in many instances, where the occupier
has paid his own rent to his own landlord.
Then every superior tenant of the sub-tenant's has a right
of distress over the actual occupier ? — Unquestionably.
Have cases come to your knowledge, of hardship arising
from that? — The greatest cruelty and oppression, and it is
attended with this additional oppression : a recent statute,
which was passed about the year 1817, for the first time,
enabled the landlords to distrain growing crops in Ireland.
My own opinion is, that that statute has contributed extreme-
ly to the disturbances in the South, because in all those cases
of sub-letting, it gave to every one of those individuals the
power of distraining the growing crop, that growing CYO\
being the subsistence of the family of the peasant ; and if h<
can forbear from digging the potato himself, he cannot r<
strain his wife and children. I have known numerous in-
stances, where informations as for a felony were sworn before
DANIEL o'cONNELt, ESQ. EXAMINED. 147
a magistrate ; the wretch was committed to a jail for two or
three or four months, till the ensuing' assizes, when it was
discovered it could riot be a felony ; but then the wretch had
lain in jail during that time, and his family of course exces-
sively ill off. The worst of the crimes of the South I attribute
a great deal to the effect of that Act of Parliament.
Are the lower orders severe in their dealings towards one
another, in regard to enforcing distress ? — They are harsh and
unfeeling towards each other in pecuniary matters.
Do they exercise the right to the fullest extent of enforcing
what is due to them, under all circumstances? — They do ; I
have known persons who would be perfectly ready to die for
each other in personal quarrels, as harsh about a shilling or
a sixpence as if they had no previous acquaintance with each
other whatever.
Have instances of grievance occurred to you, and hardship,
arising out of the practice of^bringing ejectments for rent ? —
Yes ; the stamp duties, with respect to the tenure of land, of
course are paid by the tenant ; and with respect to a peasant,
the amount of stamp duty would be more money than he could
possibly command ; the consequence of which is, that he deals
in general upon parole, or upon a contract, written upon
unstamped paper. The effect of that is, that it gives the
landlord a constant power of breaking through the contract,
without any remedy. Not even a civil bill action will lie for
a breach of the contract, because it requires that it should be
stamped before it can be produced ; the consequence of which
is, that every species of landlords have the means of bringing
ejectments, and turning the tenants out. Before the civil
bill ejectment was allowed by Act of Parliament, a landlord
was cautious of bringing an ejectment, for even if defence
was not made, it would cost him fourteen or fifteen pounds,
at the cheapest, to turn out a tenant ; but the civil bill eject-
ment has very much increased the power of lower landlords,
for by means of that he can turn out his tenant for a few
shillings ; and that horrible murder of the Shees was occa-
sioned by a civil bill ejectment, brought in that way. I wish
to express this opinion strongly to the Committee, that the
Acts of Parliament, passed since the peace, giving to Irish
landlords increased facilities of ejectment and distress, have
necessarily very much increased the tendency to disturbance
in Ireland'; there have been several of them within the last
ten years.
Have those laws produced this effect, by being made use of
by the upper class of landlords ? — Yes ; they have been used
by the upper classes of Irish gentry in the South. The resi-
148 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
dent gentry were in general very much involved in debt, and
could not contrive to get their living ; they were pressed them-
selves, and without making any further apology for them, they
certainly used their tenants quite as severely as any one pea-
sant did another. There were of course many exceptions ; I
do not mean to speak of it as an universal proposition at all.
Do you speak of the landlords or the middle men ?— I speak
of both ; but the landlords however, in general, are persons
who have leases of lives, renewable for ever. I do not know
that I include in it many, who are actually seized in fee.
Will you be good enough to mention the statutes you refer
to as having passed since the peace? — I refer to two or three.
I will be prepared on a future day to give the Committee the
precise statutes, but I can describe them generally ; the sta-
tute that gave the power of distraining the growing crops, the
acts that enabled the civil bill ejectment to be brought ; the
one statute enabled the civil bill ejectment to be brought, and
another, I believe two others, extended it, and facilitated the
means of bringing it. Those are the statutes I allude to ; the
precise years and chapters I shall furnish the Committee
with.
Do the tenants suffer much under the custodiam process ?
— There are many instances in which the tenants suffer exces-
sively under the custodiam process.
Will you explain the nature of the custodiam writ ? — The
custodiam is a grant from the Crown to the creditor of the
debtor's land. It commences in the court of Common Pleas,
by a civil outlawry ; and that outlawry being estreated into
the Exchequer, a grant is made in the Exchequer, called a
custodiam ; the potential effect of which is to entitle the cre-
ditor to all the rents of the debtor, and to enable him, by a
motion, which is a matter of course, a side bar rule, as it is
called, to compel the tenants of the outlaw to pay their rents
to the custodie ; and also, by another order or motion in court,
to demise under the court any lands not in lease. The mode
in which rents are levied under it is by personal demand ;
and if there be a refusal, an attachment-liberty is given occa-
sionally to distrain ; but the usual course, and that most pro-
ductive to the attorney, and I may add, therefore, that gene-
rally pursued, is by attachment. The outlaw will himself
distrain the tenants ; he has other creditors, who have mort-
gages and annuities, and conflicts eternally take place between
them, which may be settled, and ought to be settled by the
court, upon motion, but which frequently are not ; and when
they are not, the person who actually suffers is the occupying
tenant, for he is compelled, under distress, to pay his rent ;
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 149
and after he has paid it to one, he is attached for not paying
it to the custodiam creditor. I have known instances, in
which the wretched peasants have lain in gaol for years, under
that process of attachment ; and it is cruel to the debtor, be-
cause the legal expenses of it are enormous.
Are the instances numerous that have come under your
knowledge ? — I have been twenty-seven years at the Irish bar,
and the instances are very numerous that have come within
my knowledge, where, in really fair cases (tenants will col-
lude, of course, with their landlord, and things of that kind
will occur, but I have known an immense number of fair
cases), in which the effect of that process has been most
grievous, most oppressive ; and that without the slightest
tinge of blame to those who administered the law in the
country.
Is not this form of proceeding by custodiam, a form of pro-
ceeding peculiar to Ireland, as distinguished from England ?
— I take it to be so, though I should speak even of Irish prac-
tice with diffidence, but of English still more so ; but when we
have occasion, in arguing questions, to refer to authorities,
we get very little assistance from the English books. That
proceeding certainly is not known in England ; I say certainly,
because if it were, the reports would contain cases upon it.
Is not one effect of the proceeding by custodiam to defeat
the claims of prior creditors ? — They may be postponed ; de-
feat is, perhaps, too strong a word ; they are postponed
necessarily, because, in judgment debts, the priority is accord-
ing to the date of the judgment ; the proceedings by what is
called an elegit, which is a mode of getting possession of either
the rents or the land of the debtor. Those proceedings derive
their force according to the priority of the judgment in point
of date ; but in the custodiam proceedings, it is according to
the date of the inquisition.
Does not proceeding by custodiam tend to complicate and
defeat the ordinary proceedings by ejectment ? — Yes ; inno-
cent landlords are put to great inconvenience by it, because
unless the attorney makes search for custodiams, the landlord,
to whom rent is fairly due, and due even from a fraudulent
tenant, is defeated in that ejectment, merely because he has
not gone through the form of obtaining the consent of the
attorney-general, and bringing ejectment in the Court of Ex-
chequer ; if it be brought in any other court but that, the
proceedings are often made void ; and I have known instances
in which landlords have lost a year's rent over and over again,
and that to a large amount, merely because there were cus-
todiams against their under tenants.
150 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Have you known many instances in which a custodiam has
been fraudulently obtained, without the knowledge of the
party against whom it was granted? — I have known that
occurrence frequently ; I am convinced it exists daily ; and I
have known instances of custodiams either obtained, or at
least continued by the debtor himself.
Have you any doubt that it would be a very considerable
improvement in the law of Ireland, as relating to landlord
and tenant, if the practice in Ireland, or the law in Ireland,
were to be placed upon the same footing, as to custodiams, as
it is in England ? — I am quite convinced that the proceeding
by custodiam at present in Ireland, is a grievance of an op-
pressive nature ; but I am not prepared to say, except as far
as it may be merely abolished, that the merely assimilating it
to the English practice would be of great good.
Have many tenants of late been turned off the lands, in the
part of Ireland you are acquainted with ? — Within the last
eight or ten years, many tenants have been turned off the
land.
Is that habit increasing amongst landlords of clearing their
farms ? — I think it is at a stand ; the depreciation of prices
made the tenants so unpunctual in paying, that many land-
lords have endeavoured to clear the farms of them altogether,
and to hold them in their own hands, sometimes feeding cattle
upon them ; in general they make cattle dairies, but on the
fattening lands there have not been occupying tenants for
some years.
What becomes of the families that are turned off, how do
they contrive to exist ? — They exist among the wretched class
of labourers, or they go about begging ; the man goes to
England or some remote parts of Ireland to get labour, and
the wife and children go begging during the autumn of the
year ; that occurs upon some estates in fee, where there is no
middle man at all ; I know it in one district very extensively
upon an estate in fee.
You alluded to the operation of the Civil Bill Ejectment
Act, the Committee wish to know, whether that Act altered
any thing but the process by which the ejectment was
effected ? — Yes, it did ; it altered a good deal ; in the first
place, that Act altered and took away the exceptions which
formerly existed from the ejectment; there were some ex-
cepted cases, in which an ejectment for non-payment of rents
did not lie at all, as a case of infancy, coverture, and impri-
sonment, that Act took away those exceptions totally ; it also,
according to my recollection, and I believe I arn accurate,
altered this, that it gave ejectments against absconding-
DANIEL O CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 151
tenants, as they were called, where the premises were left
vacant, it gave to two magistrates the power of declaring that
vacancy ; and any thing that increases the power of the
magistracy in Ireland, I take to be a great alteration, not for
the better but for the worse ; it gave that power to magis-
trates to declare the tenement vacant, so that it altered, by
taking away the excepted cases, and bringing them within
the ejectment statute altogether, such as the cases of infancy,
coverture, insanity, and any person out of the realm, or in
prison ; it also increased the class of cases, by cases against
absenting tenants' deserted possessions.
You do not mean to apply the observations which you make
as to increased hardship upon the tenant, which the Act
imposed to the case of absenting tenants, that is not the part
of the Act of which you complain ? — No, its general opera-
tion ; but I have known cases where men were voted to be
absenting, that really were not, and therefore cases of hard-
ship in that respect, and I consider the Act as being liable to
abuse ; the theory of the Acts was, perhaps, good ; I speak of
their application to the state of society and peasantry in Ire-
land, as stimulating to insurrectionary movements, and creat-
ing an oppression upon the peasantry.
With respect to the Act which has been adverted to, which
gave the power of distraining growing crops, was there not a
provision in that Act to meet the case of a tenant who had
already paid his rent 1 — As I remember there was, but that
was only giving him a legal remedy against another person ;
it is quite useless to talk of an Irish peasant having a legal
remedy ; he has not money enough to pay the stamp duty
upon what they call a latitat, the first process.
You have stated, that the usage generally in the counties
you referred to was, that the tenants held by parole agreement,
or by a written agreement, not recorded on stamped paper ? —
I stated that as one of the ill effects of stamp duties upon
tenures.
You are perhaps aware, that that has not operated very
extensively to the prevention of the registry freeholders,
which can only be made upon stamped instruments ? — With
respect to the registry of freeholders, there being landlords,
having a particular stimulus to register freeholders, they
would go to the expense of the stamp duty ; and besides that, the
tenant there is supposed always to have an interest in the
land, so that the case of traffic in freeholders is not applicable
to my observation ; I have known, however, many freeholders
registered upon unstamped paper of late years ; if the inferior
152 DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
officer be in that interest, the thing may take place and
easily.
In cases of the creation of freehold interest on stamped
paper, have you known any instances, in which the freehold
lease, though executed, has not been delivered over to the pos-
session of the tenant, but has been kept in the hands of the
landlord ? — Yes, I have known instances of that, and the com-
plaints of it are not at all unfrequent.
Arising out of that, even in those cases where there is a
stamped agreement between the parties, and where therefore
the tenant has a legal instrument ascertaining and establish-
ing his right, the same species of dependence which you have
already alluded to still subsists, if that instrument remains in
the hands of the landlord? — It does, and I have known it
exercised ; certainly to exercise it at all would be improper ;
but I have known it exercised very improperly.
The Committee understand you to state, that you have
known instances of freeholders being registered, where the
leases under which they were registered were on unstamped
paper ? — Yes.
Can you state any instances in which you know it of your
own knowledge ? — I am not prepared to mention names ; it
would be impossible for me to state particular instances ; I
have known the thing occur.
It is illegal, is it not? — It must be illegal, because neither
tenure nor contract for land can be made in Ireland without a
stamp.
Are you aware, that the certificate runs that it is upon
stamped paper ? — Yes ; but that is recent.
Therefore the clerk of the peace would be the person who
would be in fault ? — Since the passing of that Act, which is
certainly a recent Act.
Are you of opinion that there is any great difficulty in
making registries of freeholders without the business being
very accurately performed according to law ? — The greatest
facility ; the clerk of the peace can appoint his deputy, any
man can be his deputy for the moment, and it is the easiest
thing in the world to register freeholds upon the present sys-
tem, without either freehold or valid tenure to constitute a
freeholder ; there must be first tenure, that is to say, a grant
for a life or lives to constitute a freehold ; in order to registry
there must be at the utmost such a rent as would leave the
freeholder a profit of forty shillings a year : now I have known
numerous instances, where, if a peasant was made to swear that
he had a freehold of ft^rty shillings, he would have perjured
himself in the grossest way ; and in those instances a friendly
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 153
magistrate or two may very easily get into the room; an
adjournment of the sessions for the purpose of registry is the
easiest thing in the world, because the Act of Parliament gives
validity to the registry, notwithstanding any irregularity in
the adjournment of the sessions, therefore two magistrates
can come together very easily, get the deputy of the clerk of
the peace to attend, and they can register upon unstamped
paper if they please. They can register with the life described
in such a way, that that life will be either dead or living, as
they please, at the next election ; John O'Driscol or Timothy
Sullivan, or any thing of that kind. Frauds with respect to
the registry of freeholds are very considerable; but still it is,
I take it, a very great advantage to the Irish peasant upon the
whole, to have the power of voting given to him by forty-
shilling freehold.
Not in this manner and under these conditions? — Not in
its abuses ; but I speak of abuses, which with a vigilant ma-
gistracy would be prevented or much diminished.
Do you think those abuses are general in the counties you
have alluded to ? — Abuses exist, but I do not think them by
any means general ; they are frequent.
Do you conceive that the multiplication of oaths, with refer-
ence to the registration of freeholds, and with reference to
the proceedings at elections, as well as other oaths which are
administered to the peasantry of Ireland, has had the effect of
rendering them in any respect indifferent to the obligation of
an oath ? — Yes, I am convinced of it ; the frequency of oaths
has had a most demoralizing effect upon the peasantry of Ire-
land; my opinion is, that the civil bill jurisdiction of the
county courts is most frightful and horrible in its effects upon
the morals of the Irish people. The allowing a single indivi-
dual to decide, who cannot possibly be acquainted with the
bearings of character, in the first place, it is not bringing jus-
tice home to the peasant, it is bringing litigation ; then a sin-
gle individual decides, he has an immense number of causes to
decide, he cannot possibly weigh the character, for he cannot
be acquainted with its shades ; in the next place, it is not
pleasant to him to have that task ; the jury keep each other in
countenance, one man is not reproached with having discre-
dited a witness, there are twelve on the jury, and therefore
they protect each other ; the assistant barrister is not so, he
has not that protection ; then if he decides, and I have seen
this to a frightful and horrible extent, if the barrister decides,
he will necessarily decide in favour of the flippant and dis-
tinct swearer ; the swearer who has been trained to swear
distinctly up to the fact that shall constitute the law. To
154 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINEDr
have a conscience is an inconvenience, therefore in the civil
bill court, if he is a man of character, scrupulous of his oath,
he does his friend no good at all, but the ready and distinct
swearer is beyond value ; and it has had this effect, that in
their dealings the peasantry, in most of them, employ their
children at a very early age, to be their witnesses, and
they produce them at an age that it is actually frightful to
look at them. I am, in rny conscience, thoroughly convinced,
that if a society were instituted to discourage virtue and coun-
tenance vice, it would have been ingenious indeed if it had
discovered such a system as the assistant barrister's court ;
without meaning, in the slightest degree to impeach the inte-
grity of the gentlemen who hold that situation in Ireland,
some of whom are not very competent, to be sure, in point of
intellect, but many of whom are extremely competent ; arid as
to the appointments of the last eight or ten years, particu-
larly, they have been improving certainly in respect of ap-
pointment.
Are not the evils which you have described as incident to
the civil bill jurisdiction, augmented by reason of the places
in which the court are held, which bring individuals from a
very great distance, and where, consequently, their character
is little known? — That inconvenience is merely pecuniary;
and the hardship' of travelling, that, in my mind, is but a
very slight inconvenience ; the great inconvenience is the im-
morality ; when questions are tried by jury, there is a bonus
held out to men to be of good character ; for they obtain cre-
dit by it, and the trial by jury gives ordinarily a stamp upon
character ; now it would seem to me, that the legislature ought
to encourage, as much as possible, every thing that shall have
a tendency to make character valuable ; the civil bill jurisdic-
tion, which takes away the trial by jury, takes away the ten-
dency of value to character, and gives a .tendency to flippancy
of swearing.
Do you conceive it would be practicable to try by jury the
number of cases which necessarily come before the assistant
barristers at sessions ? — I think the number of cases, in itself,
a great evil ; I know that the tendency is to multiply them
most unnecessarily ; I know that full well. I know that, in
practice, decrees are obtained without a service of civil bill at
all, and very many decrees. I know, in practice, instances,
and the cases are not few, in which individuals obtain decrees
in this way ; they fill a civil bill at the sessions ; John Brown,
for example, wishes to get a decree, and he fills a civil bill at
the sessions in the name of John Geary or John Sullivan,
there is no service of course ; he goes in, and though he is the
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 155
person intending to have the decree himself, he proves the case,
and gets the decree, and goes and makes the distress, and sells
the goods, before there is a possibility of discovering the
fraud. That has been attempted to be met by taking the bai-
liff up for a capital felony, as for stealing the cattle, or what-
ever he seized, and when the assizes came on, I have seen him
indicted for the felony, and he produced the civil bill decree ;
then it was said, it was a fraud, and the man ought to be pro-
secuted for the fraud and for the perjury ; for the perjury it is
impossible, for who is to identify the person to be the swearer
at the sessions.
Is it not a phrase, perfectly understood in the country,
" stealing a decree ?" — Perfectly understood ; I have known
this flagrant instance; there was a tenant of mine, who, for a
cottier tenant, was comfortable ; the man had five milch cows,
he got a typhus fever, which extended to his wife and chil-
dren ; while he was lying in that state, two decrees were stolen
upon him, every particle he had in the world was sold, and
he was reduced to complete beggary: when I came to the
country afterwards, and he made a complaint of this, I found
that the man who had done so, was also living as a tenant of
mine, and I had no remedy in the world but to turn him off,
for I found it impossible to institute a prosecution with suc-
cess.
Do you mean, that that man owed nothing to the other ?— «
He did not owe a shilling.
Under what pretence did he obtain those decrees ? — One of
them was under the pretence of what they call " sheaf;" that
term requires explanation ; the outgoing tenant in Ireland,
almost universally, is entitled to a portion of the crop which
they call sheaf, it is in some places the third sheaf, and they
talk of a sheaf of potatoes, a sheaf of twigs ; and one of those
decrees was obtained, under pretence of a title to sheaf; it
happened to occur to the man that was taking it to fill it in
that way ; the other was as for a debt.
And he went and swore to this ? — He had it sworn to ; he
either swore it himself, or got somebody else to swear it.
Is not the hurry of the mode of proceeding in the civil bill
court, such as to leave it open to those frauds which you have
alluded to, and to many other frauds ? — It must necessarily ;
the hurry is excessive ; it is impossible to have any thing more
undignified, or unlike a court of justice in general, than the
civil bill court ; there are two or three attornies talking to
their clients on every side ; they are taking their instructions,
and examining the witnesses for the next causes, while the
cause is going on. There is a great deal of vehemence of
156 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
character about the Irish ; the plaintiff and the defendant and
their wives and their witnesses are all bawling, at the same
time the attorney screaming. There is no poetry in saying,
that justice is frightened away.
What quantity of time do you suppose is given to the dis-
posal of those cases ? — Six thousand cases have been decided
in a week, as I understand.
Do not you connect the hurried mode in which the business
is transacted, in some degree with the circumstance of the as-
sistant barristers being also practising barristers in the supe-
rior courts ? — Yes, I take it that it is a great evil in the sys-
tem that they are practising barristers ; I do not mean at all
to disparage my own profession ; yet we are men, and the
civil bill attornies employ the assistant barristers ; and the
civil bill clients employ the assistant barristers ; and in spite
of the highest feelings of a very high profession, that will
mingle, it ought not to be allowed to exist.
Then you conceive it would be an improvement upon the
present system, if the office and functions of the assistant
barristers were made more exclusively judicial than they now
are ? — I think it would be a great improvement ; my own ab-
stract opinion is, that the evil of serving process for the re-
covery of small debts, and the necessary increase of oaths, is
much greater than any that would occur, if they were irreco-
verable. 1 think, in the balance of evils, it would be better
that small debts were irrecoverable; and I believe that few
small debts would be unpaid , if there was no legal process,
for no man would get credit but a man who had a character
for punctuality; and that again would operate upon society as
an additional bonus to character and fidelity. I think it would
be better therefore if debts, under perhaps 51. or more, were
irrecoverable, and the assistant barristers were lessened in
number, and increased much in salary, for if you do not pay
the workmen well, you will not have good workmen; and
that they went stated circuits, and that they tried every ques-
tion by jury, and that the magistrates were not exempt from
serving upon those juries, as constituting part of the sessions
court, which is another evil wherever a jury is attempted in
those cases ; but the evils of the civil billr court are nothing in
point of perjury, and every abomination, compared to the
evils of the petty courts in corporate towns and boroughs,
where the manor courts continue to exist in Ireland ; in the
manor courts, the most indecent proceedings take place: a
vulgar fellow, a hedge schoolmaster, or driver to an estate, is
made seneschal, that is, the judge of the court; he holds the
court generally in a miserable whiskey house. It is almost an
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 157
universal rule that the jury will not go together, unless they
get a certain portion of whiskey ; and I have known instances,
I say known, because they were proved before me; I have
known an instance in which it was proved before me, for they
reserve their quarrels for me to decide when I go to the coun-
try, that the jury decided for the person who gave them most
whiskey, having declared that they would do so.
Are the juries sworn in those manor courts ? — They are,
and returned by the seneschal.
You are speaking now of manor courts ? — I am speaking
now of manor courts. I hardly know one person of respecta-
bility as seneschal ; I knew one, but he was a magistrate, and
he was deprived of the commission of the peace upon that
account ; I think improperly.
Do you mean that he was struck out of the commission be-
cause he was a seneschal ? — Yes ; he was nearly connected
with myself.
Will you state the instance? — A Mr. M'Carthy.
In what part of the country ? — Mr. Jeremiah M'Carthy, in
Newmarket, in the county of Cork. I made the inquiry,
and I found that was the cause of his being struck out.
What is the amount to which the manor court is limited?
— That varies according to the patent. In the manor in Ire-
land, where the patents have not been preserved, except those
which have been officially enrolled, and particularly those be-
longing to titles after the usurpation ; the evidence of the
jurisdiction is usage giving evidence of prescriptive right ;
and there the more aggravated the abuse, the stronger the
evidence of the usage is.
Would there not be, in most of those places where those
local jurisdictions, exercised by seneschals, exist, considerable
difficulty in finding proper persons to fill that situation ? — •
There would ; they have fallen into great disrepute, by rea-
son of the people who have filled them; and in general, it
would be considered an offence to ask a man to act as se-
neschal.
How would you propose to remedy the evil ? — To abolish
the seneschal courts; I take them to be unmixed evil, in-
creasing litigation, and a most frightful source of perjury.
I know of no one advantage to be derived from them.
Do you know whether those seneschals derive fees ? — Yes.
When you speak of abolishing the seneschals, you only
mean so far as relates to judicial proceedings before them ?—
They are only for judicial proceedings ; they have no other
function ; in Ireland, the seneschal of certain boroughs is the
returning officer; I do not at all speak of him, but I am
158 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
speaking of the country in general. The manor courts do
nothing else.
Do not the abuses you have described in the civil bill court
arise very much from the facility with which you can obtain
evidence of the service of process, in cases where no service
of process has in point of fact taken place ? — Very much ; it
is the easiest thing in the world to obtain the evidence of the
service of an unserved process.
In the event of the civil bill court remaining, would it not
be a great improvement if the service of process were to re-
main in the hands of the officer of the court ? — It would ; but
those experiments are also dangerous. Who shall answer for
his fidelity; he would have at his disposal this question, who
should recover and who should not.
What is the present character of the individuals who are
employed as process servers throughout the country ? — It is
considered, upon cross-examination, quite sufficient to esta-
blish that a man is a process server, in order to have done
with his evidence.
Are there any circumstances which distinguish the effects
of the execution of process of the seneschal court, from those
which attend the execution of the decrees of the civil bill
court ? — Yes ; murders ensue upon it, at least manslaughter ;
human lives are lost, and that not unfrequently, in executing
the decrees ; they are executed by the parties who go in a vio-
lent way ; injustice has been perpetrated by the decree, which
gives a natural tendency to resistance, and each party arms
himself as well as he can ; a battle actually takes place,
and human lives are lost. I have known that.
This relates to civil bill decrees, as well as those of manor
courts ? — Even upon civil bill decrees those battles are fought ;
there is, however, something more in the civil bill decree,
for the sheriff must sign that decree ; and there is an attor-
ney upon it, who, although civil bill attornies do not rank
as high as the others, yet he has a character, and will be
cautious.
The execution of the decrees of the civil bill court is put in
the hands of the party ? — It is ; the sub-sheriffs frequently sign
the warrant in blank; that is a bad practice, condemned of
course every where.
Do you mean that the parties insert their own names ? —
They insert what names they please ; they do not insert the
names of the plaintiff. The courts of conscience are exces-
sively injurious.
Would not the requiring of juries in civil courts have a
tendency to diminish the quantity of litigation ? — Certainly,
DANIEL O'CONKELL, ESQ.. EXAMINEE. 159
to diminish perjury, to increase the value of character, and
of course to diminish the readiness of men of bad character
to swear ; it would have all the advantages of trial by jury,
which, to my judgment, are very great.
Would it become impossible to carry on the civil bill suits,
in your opinion, by having juries ? — I think not ; I think that
by not allowing actions to be brought for very small sums,
and by having regular circuits, six or eight circuits in a year,
civil bill circuits, that justice would be brought home to the
doors of the poor in Ireland, without bringing litigation and
chicanery.
Do you know what are the opinions of the assistant-bar-
risters upon this point of having juries ? — I have spoken to
many of them upon it, excellent and intelligent and honour-
able men ; and I find that there is a facility in every body to
believe, that he can do by himself, that he does not choose to
have assistance ; the opinions of the assistant-barristers are
rather against it, they have a power to impanel a jury to try
facts, which they never exercise, at least very seldom.
Is it your opinion, that if the business under the civil bill
process was conducted with more regularity, and with more
certainty as to the administration of justice, than it is at pre-
sent, that that very circumstance would have a very great ten-
dency to diminish the number of actions ? — I am convinced it
would, a very great tendency both upon the clients and the
attornies; and that if the attorney's emoluments were allowed
to be increased at the will of his client, it would also diminish
the number much by taking away his interest to multiply the
number.
In point of fact, is not the jurisdiction exercised by the as-
sistant barristers on the Crown side beneficial ; is it not con-
ducted with the greatest order and the greatest regularity ? —
I think the assistant barrister is decidedly useful in Ireland,
on the Crown side.
160 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Martis, 1° die Martii, 1825.
LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR.
Daniel O'Connell, Esquire, again called in; and Examined.
ARE you of opinion that sufficient time is allowed by the
assistant barrister at the Quarter Sessions, for the business of the
Crown court ? — As the Crown business is done at present, I do
not think that sufficient time is allowed ; it is not, strictly speak-
ing, the duty of the assistant barrister ; he is only one of the ma-
gistrates, and his duty being the civil business, he feels, as it
appears to me, that he discharges his duty if he does the civil
business ; and then the criminal business being matter of supere-
rogation, he is anxious to get rid of that as fast as he can ; there-
fore I do not think that sufficient time is given to the criminal
business.
Does his attendance upon his professional duties in Dublin,
interfere with his duty as assistant barrister in the Crown court ?
— Yes, my opinion is that it does ; the more an assistant barrister
is employed in Dublin, the more efficient he ought to be, the
success being evidence, as I conceive, of his efficiency ; and there-
fore the more efficient any man is, the more it is his interest to
shorten the time below, and to be in Dublin attending his own
business, so that the best workmen are necessarily in the greatest
hurry to get rid of the civil business.
Is the assistant barrister by law chairman of the Crown court ?
— I take him to be chairman of the Crown court by law, but
with a single voice only; according to my judgment, no casting
voice; and I have known him over-ruled by the magistrates;
and I never knew him overruled, that he was not improperly
overruled; upon the whole, I think the attendance of a bar-
rister at the sessions, calculated to do great good and no harm
at all, if he had leisure enough to attend to it.
How is the business conducted in the Crown court generally ?
— Very badly in the southern provinces, with which I am ac-
quainted practically ; I know nothing of the northern sessions,
the province of Ulster, but in the others it is badly conducted ;
the grand juries are selected from improper persons, low persons ;
the venders of spirits and beer, find it a profitable trade to be
grand jurors, because they can vote against the finding of bills
for their customers ; the grand jury therefore, in general, is badly
constituted, so that of late I have known some assistant barristers
make out a good grand jury out of the half-pay officers who hap-
pened to be resident in the neighbourhood.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 161
You do not apply that observation to all the southern pro-
vinces ? — No ; but my opinion is, that in all the southern pro-
vinces the grand juries are not well selected ; as far as I know
they are not ; I mean the grand juries at the quarter sessions; I
do not of course speak of the grand juries of the assizes ; no gen-
tleman, who is in the commission of the peace, can be upon that
grand jury at all, for he is part of the court; so that all that
class are thrown out of it; and such gentlemen, for there are
several who do not condescend to take the commission of the
peace, or who do not wish to take it, would feel themselves hurt,
as far as my knowledge goes, if the sub-sheriff were to summon
them on the session grand jury.
Can you point out any other class but magistrates, who are
excluded from those grand juries? — No; revenue officers are by
the statute.
Is it the practice to appoint Catholics? — As far as I know, it
is ; I do not know that in the south any religious distinction is
made on the sessions grand juries at all, or if at all, very little ; it
is certainly not a subject of complaint.
What is your opinion with respect to the appointment of petit
juries at sessions? — It is equally bad, or perhaps worse; the
criminal practice at the sessions is to have almost every cause
tried with a double aspect ; a prosecutor in the one number, as
soon as he has given his evidence, goes into the dock, and the
prosecuted comes upon the table to prosecute; they send up cross
indictments; there is scarcely any doubt that mutual batteries
have taken place.
Are there cross indictments in cases of larceny ? — They scarcely
ever try larcenies at the quarter sessions in the south ; in the
county of Kerry, with which I am best acquainted, I have
known but one or two instances of petit larceny tried at sessions.
Are the proceedings of the court conducted with order and
regularity? — No, they are not, except when the personal cha-
racter of the assistant barrister is of a more decisive nature ; it
depends altogether on the decision of the individual ; for example,
the gentleman who filled the chair in the countv of Limerick, a
most respectable gentleman, Mr. Lloyd, kept his court in great
order ; I have known other very valuable men, who have not
kept their courts at all in order.
What class of the profession practise in those courts ? — Bar-«
risters scarcely at all, except in the county of Cork ; there are
some barristers who are resident ; from the quantity of property
in Cork, it forms a kind of exception ; I understand there is a
little of that in Waterford also, or rather there was; but in Cork,
from the quantity of commercial property, and the Recorder of
Cork, Mr. Wagget, having qualities to make him an excellent
M
162 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
judge ; he is a gentleman of private fortune, who was in a very
successful career at the bar, and was qualified to reach the very
highest station in it ; that gentleman is Recorder of Cork, with a
very small salary, which he has repeatedly refused to allow to be
increased. In his record court, the trial is by jury, and the
pleadings are in his court regularly filed, as regularly as in the
courts above ; he sits at least once a week to try records, and
tries questions of very great magnitude ; there is a bar established
in Cork by that means ; out of Cork, with the single exception of
Waterford, I believe there is no local bar ; the consequence is,
that the sessions business is done altogether by attorneys, and the
class of sessions attorneys is not the most respectable; but I should
say, that very respectable men also do practise, especially the
young men of respectable connexions, ana in the commencement
of their career, practise in the sessions.
Is it considered discreditable for a respectable attorney to prac-
tise in the court of quarter sessions in Ireland ? — It still con-
tinues, to a considerable extent, to be so ; it was considered quite
disreputable, and it was so by reason of some of the leading men
of the profession of attorneys, having formed rather a fashionable
club in Dublin, in which it was a rule that no man should be ad-
mitted, who practised in the sessions court, so that they them-
selves stigmatized the sessions practitioners; that, however, is
diminishing, from the reason I stated, that respectable young men
do certainly now practise ; the relaxation of the Popery laws has
given a better class of attorneys than existed in the counties before.
Are the fees regulated by Act of Parliament? — The fees of
the Civil Bill court are regulated by Act of Parliament. I am
ignorant whether the fees of the criminal court are regulated by
Act of Parliament or not.
What is your opinion with regard to the effect of those fees, in
preventing respectable attorneys practising in those courts ? — I am
persuaded that the limited nature of the fees is an evil every
where, that prevents respectable attorneys practising, when they
get into general business ; and it has a natural tendency to excite
attorneys when they do practise, to multiply the number of cases,
in order that the number may make up to them emoluments,
which ought to be created by a lesser quantity.
Since the stamp duty has been taken off the process, is it not
in the power of any man to summon another, and place him un-
der the vexatious circumstances of being called upon to appear in
court, without incurring any expense whatsoever? — It is, cer-
tainly ; he can do it, of course, at a great deal less expense since
the stamp duty was taken away ; but as long as courts exist for
the recovery of small debts, which I beg again to say, as far as
my own humble judgment goes, is against that judgment, I think
DAtftEL ootfttELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
it would be better not to have courts for the recovery of small
debts ; but as long as they do exist, the cheaper they are made, in
my opinion, the better ; the principle seems to me to be cheap-
ness ; my great objection to those courts, is the immense quantity
of perjury they necessarily engender.
Your observations apply only to the southern provinces, and
not to the northern? — I have said so, that is, when I speak from
my own knowledge ; a great deal (speaking from information) of
the mischief of civil bills, I understand, does extend also to the
northern districts, but I do not know it of my own knowledge ; I
know nothing of the mode of empannelling grand juries in the
north, even from hearsay, if I may be allowed that phrase.
Are you acquainted with the manner in which justice has been
administered by the magistrates throughout the south of Ireland?
— I think I am; it has made a very unfavourable impression
upon my mind. The mode of administering the criminal law
by the magistrates, has been very bad, and continues, though the
petty sessions have given some improvement, to be, in my judg-
ment, bad.
Can you state, generally, any practices which have prevailed,
which have rendered the administration of justice such as you
have described it to be? — The administration of justice is divided
into ministerial acts, which are preparatory to trials in criminal
courts, and judicial acts, where the magistrates inflict penalties
and decide cases. Now, in ministerial acts, there was a great flip
pancy in sending persons to trial upon informations brought in
writing to the magistrates, and sworn to without due examination
or caution, so that in the southern counties the difference was
very great between the number of persons found in the calendar
at such assizes, several of whom were months in gaol, and the
number indicted ; and a very great disproportion between those
indicted and those convicted ; now, a vigilant and a paternal ma-
gistracy would certainly have prevented those cruel grievances.
Have abuses prevailed with regard to the manner in which
summonses for attendance have been granted ? — Great abuses ;
the jurisdiction which has been extended with respect to tithes by
an Act of Parliament of five or six years ago (I speak in round
numbers) has been attended with very grievous consequences in
many places ; I know an instance, in which (it was one of many)
peasants were summoned by two magistrates ; the tithes being let
by an absentee clergyman, who had two very large parishes, and
only two or three Protestant inhabitants ; he let them to an indi-
vidual who did not think the people a bit the better for his being
a Roman Catholic himself; I have known him to get summonses
from two magistrates who resided nineteen miles from the farm,
and the people went with their witnesses the nineteen miles ; and
M 2
164 DANIEL OVONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
as soon as it was found they bad their witnesses, and were ready
for the cause, the magistrates at once adjourned the court for a
week ; so that they had thirty-eight miles to travel, with their
witnesses, without effect.
Were there magistrates resident nearer than the nineteen miles ?
— Oh yes, many. Those two magistrates were certainly very
singularly circumstanced, for one of them is in the depot for
transported convicts, and the other I saw discharged as an insol-
vent the other day ; they would have harassed the people three
or four weeks more, if I had not been in the country.
Is it not the case, that the party who sues for tithes before the
magistrates, is empowered to choose the magistrates before whom
he will bring the cause ? — Certainly.
And there is no option in the party complained against? —
None in the world; as I remember the Act of Parliament, how-
ever, there are some exceptions. Magistrates, who are tithe-
owners, are, I think, excluded ; but then, if they do act, what is
the remedy of the peasant? only an application to the court
of King's Bench; it is quite idle to talk of that to an Irish
peasant.
Are either of those magistrates, to whom you have referred,
still in the commission ? — No.
How long have they ceased to be? — Perhaps three or four years.
Have any instances come to your knowledge, of abuses in
issuing summonses ? — Oh, yes ; summonses have been issued for
very trivial matters. Favouritism subsists in the south, that is very
little aggravated by any religious differences ; but it is sometimes
tinged with that.
Has the authority of magistrates been in any degree perverted,
so as to turn it into a grievance in this respect ?— Yes ; my
opinion is, that the magistrates, taken all together, have not that
feeling that men ought to have, who hold any species of judicial
station; there is not the generous sentiment of abhorrence of
wrong and oppression among the class of men who are magis-
trates in Ireland, which there ought to be. It is a convenient
thing for a man to have a commission of the peace in his neigh-
bourhood ; he can make those he dislikes fear him, and he can
favour his friends ; a great deal of that prevails, and must neces-
sarily prevail, in a state of society such as subsists in Ireland.
Can you mention any instances in which the judicial autho-
rities of magistrates have been abused ? — The instance, I gave,
was one in which judicial authority was abused ; we have com-
plaints professionally coming constantly before us, of the modes
of inflicting fines for various offences ; and we have reason to be-
lieve, the complaints are well founded, though it is almost im-
possible to procure redress for them.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 165
What opinion prevails among the lower orders of the people,
in respect of the administration of justice by the magistrates ? —
The lower class of the people conceive, that it is not the justice
of the case that is to decide it before the magistrates, but the per-
son who has most favour and interest ; and the moment they have
any thing to be decided before magistrates, they ransack the
entire neighbourhood to get letters of recommendation to the ma-
gistrates.
Do they adopt any other means of influencing magistrates in
their favour ? — It is familiar in belief, and I have no doubt of it,
that magistrates have received money and various articles : where
they could not give money, eggs and butter, and fowls, and pre-
sents of various kinds.
Do they ever give free labour ? — Yes ; and free labour where
they can give nothing else ; and immorality where females are
interested ; complaints of that description have been made, that
they purchase favour in a mode which is not difficult to be under-
stood.
What effect has the system, that has been recently introduced
of bringing magistrates together at petit sessions, prouuced on the
general administration of justice? — I think that it certainly has
improved it among the magistrates at petit sessions, there being
several ; and it is likely, that there is at least even one of the
better class, and he necessarily influences the conduct of the ses-
sions ; but when they are disposed to act harshly at all, it protects
them better to act in numbers than if one was to act alone ; it has
that drawback.
What impression has this alteration made upon the opinion of
the lower orders of the people ? — I do not think that as yet it has
made a much more favourable impression ; they conceive, that
the questions are decided by the majority of votes, and they still
canvass as they used to do ; it has not been in the south long
enough in operation to make a favourable impression, at least to
abolish and drive away the preconceived notions*.
* The following is taken from Major Wilcock's evidence, p. 109.
Do you consider that the magistrates (of the county of Limerick) were to be
charged with a general negligence of their duties in the administering justice be-
tween the lower orders ? — I think there was a very great cry out, that justice was
not administered generally.
Have you been told of any existing complaint ?— I have, I believe.
Was there a complaint, with regard to the system of fees taken by magistrates ?
— Yes ; I did hear that some magistrates took fees, and took them, if I may be
allowed the expression, in kind.
Will you explain what you mean by taking fees in kind ? — Getting their turf
drawn home and other things.
Any
166 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
In what manner was this alteration effected by government, of
inducing the magistrates to act in petty sessions ? — As far as my
knowledge goes, the judges, on going out on the circuits, were
spoken to, to recommend it in the various counties ; and I know,
in point of fact, the judges did so recommend, and repeated the
recommendations.
To what extent did that measure of revising the magistracy go,
which was lately adopted in respect of purifying the magistracy ?
— It struck out some very bad men ; it left in several ; and it
was used occasionally, to deprive of the commission of the peace
most excellent men, without any cause ; it was peculiarly severe
upon the Roman Catholic magistrates.
Mr. Garrett Nagle was a man of very respectable character,
and of an old family ? — Yes, both ; but in the county of Cork,,
most of the Catholic magistrates were struck out, but some of
them have since been restored.
Do you know any thing with respect to the effect of the exclu-
sion of the Roman Catholics, from the direction of the bank of
Ireland ? — Yes : for the last two-and-thirty years Roman Catho-
lics have been eligible to the situation of Wnk directors, but not
one of them has been elected, although an immense deal of bank
stock belongs to the Catholics ; in their fair proportion, it is im-
possible to say, that they ought not to have two or three of the
bank directors always Catholics ; it was injurious to the Catholic
commercial men during the war ; and in times of commercial spe-
culation, I think the result has been highly beneficial to them,
and accounts, in my mind, for the superior wealth of the Catholic
commercial community in Dublin over the Protestant ; they were
thrown upon their own resources, and obliged to make fortunes
by degrees, and such are the men who keep their property.
Anything else ? — Assisting in planting their potatoes, and things of that kind.
Were those fees taken upon the discharge of magisterial duty, or upon any
other occasion ? — I cannot fake upon me to say what the agreement between the
grantor and grantee was, but it was for some service, I should suppose, rendered
by the magistrates.
Do you conceive that those presents were made for service rendered in the
capacity of magistrate ? — I think they arose out of magisterial influence.
Were those magistrates middle men, or resident gentry ? — They were resident
gentry ; I think they possessed some property, but very much embarrassed.
The observations which you have made, apply to the time before the reform of
the magistracy; before the introduction of petty sessions? — Certainly.
Was there any feeling in the county, with respect to the participation of some
magistrates, in illicit distillation, and in the system of fees ? — There certainly was ;
particularly in the western parts of the county of Limerick.
Did that belief, within your observation, tend to deprive the magistrates of the
confidence of the people at large?— I think it did.
DANIEL O^CONNELL ESd- EXAMINED. 167
Was not there a difference of opinion, with respect to the
effect of the Act of 1793, as to its effect on the charter, in
order to procure the admission of Roman Catholics to the bank
direction ? — There was ; there were three opinions taken, two of
them were unfavourable to the Catholics. Mr. Ponsonby, who
gave one of the opinions, was afterwards himself astonished at
having given it ; whether it is that we conceive ourselves better
lawyers now, from attending more exclusively to the profession of
the law, I cannot say ; but no lawyer at present in Ireland, has
the least doubt on the subject, that they were eligible all along.
By the Act of 1807 or 1808, when the bank charter was re-
newed, there is a clause saving all rights that existed under the
former Act of 1 793 ? — As I remember there is ; I speak from
recollection not recently refreshed ; if I recollect right, there was
a clause brought in to empower Catholics to become bank direc-
tors, and that Sir Samuel Romilly declared in the House, that it
was not necessary ; I may be mistaken in that, but I understand
it to be the universal opinion of the profession, and speaking of so
humble an individual as myself, I have no doubt that Catholics
are eligible.
But no Catholic has been, in fact, ever yet elected ? — No Ca-
tholic in fact has ever been elected.
Do you know whether, in the subordinate officers employed by
the Bank, there is any instance of any Catholic being admitted to
a clerkship, even in the bank ? — I understand there are six or
seven instances, or from that to ten ; but the thing in Ireland
which is most grievous, is not perhaps the letter of the law that
excludes the Catholics, but the spirit in which the letter is acted
upon.
Do you know whether there are any other instances in which
the Act of 1793 rendered the Catholics admissible to offices not
immediately under the government, but in different departments,
to which they have never been admitted ? — To franchises, such,
for example, as the freedom of the city of Dublin ; for the same
period the Catholics have been admissible to the freedom of the
city of Dublin, there has not, I believe, been a single instance of
a Catholic obtaining that right ; in general, the persons were too
poor to enforce it. At my own expense, I found a man of the
name of Cole, and I got a peremptory mandamus from the King's
Bench about five years ago, but he died in a fortnight after ; and
from that until the present year the matter rested, when some
means were found to bring on the question again. We have ob-
tained a mandamus. It is not returnable as yet ; it will be re-
turnable the next term. In a case in which the individual had
been a Protestant, he would have been admitted at once, and it
168 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
was so sworn in his affidavit, and not denied in the affidavits of
the corporation, on showing cause, as I recollect.
Do you know whether, in other corporations, the same adher-
ence to the exclusion is still continued ? — In the corporation of
Limerick, as much as in the other ; but that was rather to keep it
in the hands of a particular family ; the religion mixed there with
self interest. In Cork it is an inconvenience, but it is not so strict.
I am not aware of any other corporation in which it has had that
effect, and that particularly, because the corporations with which
I am acquainted, are not, in general, open corporations, except
Dublin.
Do you know the circumstances of the corporation of Water-
ford ? — I am not acquainted with the details of that corporation ;
but there are Catholic freemen there, and there are Catholic free-
men at Cork.
You have said, in answer to a question, that you attribute, in
some degree, to the exclusion of the Roman Catholics from the
Bank, the superiority of their wealth in Dublin ; on what obser-
vation do you ground the alleged fact, that the Roman Catholics
are superior? — Many circumstances have made me very intimately
acquainted with the city of Dublin, and the commercial men in it.
There is, first, my professional opportunities ; one reason also is,
the political part that I have taken, which has brought me into
immediate connexion with the Catholic mercantile men. The op-
position to us has made me know, tolerably well, the Protestant
commercial men ; and both causes have given me a knowledge of
what we call the liberal men. Now, from these causes combined,
I am able to say, with a good deal of confidence, that the prepon-
derance of the commercial wealth in Dublin is with the Catholic
merchants. My profession gives me private information of the
amount of property.
Do you mean to include in that, merely the Roman Catholics
themselves, or that proportion of the Protestants supposed to be fa-
vourable to their opinions ? — I mean to say, that the Roman Ca-
tholics themselves have the absolute preponderance, in my judg-
ment.
Can you form any estimate of the commercial wealth of the city
of Dublin, on the whole ? — I should be afraid to state any guess
upon that subject.
You have mentioned the spirit with which the laws have been
administered in Ireland ; what influence has that had, in respect
to the concessions made to the Roman Catholics in the year 1793?
— It has not allowed those concessions to go fully into effect, as
the legislature intended. The instances I have given are instances
of that description, where the legislative benefit has not been re,
alized. There are others.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 169
Have you ever known, in the case of purchases made by Roman
Catholics of landed property in Ireland, any exception taken to
the purchasing of lands, the title of which depended upon confis-
cation or forfeiture ? — No objection, certainly ; on the contrary,
in advising a purchaser to buy, as a professional man, I infinitely
prefer that it should have been a forfeited property, arid for this
distinct reason, that then the origin of the title is easily traced ;
for after the usurpation, all those who obtained forfeited property
took out patents for it, and therefore we easily find the patent,
and direct the searches merely for subsequent periods ; so that I
take it to be an additional advantage in carrying an estate to
market in Ireland, that it was a forfeited estate. I myself, in
the small property I possess, have lands that are forfeited.
Have you ever known purchases of landed property in Ireland,
to a considerable extent, made by Catholics ? — O yes; and indeed,
circumstances having placed me a good deal in the confidence of
wealthy Catholics, and knowing a good deal of their purchases, I
do not think I could call to recollection the purchases, by Catho-
lics, of any thing but forfeited estates. The instances in which
they have purchased them are beyond a doubt very numerous. I
speak from positive knowledge.
The Catholic body, as a body, would have no interest in re-
versing the forfeiture ? — The wealthy Catholics would be ruined
by it. .
Have you any means of informing the Committee, what pro-
portion the property that never was forfeited bears to that which
was ? — It must be extremely small. I know of but one instance
within the scope of my knowledge, of a property that never was
forfeited, and I possess that myself.
Then the inference to be drawn is this, that almost the whole
of Ireland has, at one time or other, been forfeited ? — I believe
the whole of Ireland has been two or three or four times forfeited,
the northern forfeitures were, many of them, in the reign of
Queen Elizabeth ; the southern were at the Usurpation, and again
at the .Revolution. During the reigns of James the First and
Charles the First, there were immense forfeitures, both in the
north and in Connaught.
There were some in the reign of Edward the Sixth ? — Yes ;
those were principally church lands.
The quit rents, which show pretty well what estates have never
been forfeited ? — I take the distinction between crown rents and
quit rents to be this : crown rents show where it was forfeited ;
quit rent, in its signification, was a kind of composition for a bad
title, for qyieting the title, and may exist as well after forfeiture
as in lands not forfeited.
170 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Is it within your knowledge, that there is a considerable sum
lent out by Catholics on mortgages of estates, in addition to the
land purchased by them ? — Very considerable, in addition to their
landed property. Except in Dublin itself, the Irish Catholics
have not, until latterly, got into the habit of placing their money
in the funds ; they have lent their money on landed security.
Judgments and mortgages were, till lately, considered nearly equal
in value, in practice in Ireland.
Are there not a considerable proportion of the tenantry greatly
interested in the present state of things, by the possession of very
long leases ? — There are ; and on forfeited estates I am quite
convinced that any measure so ruinous to all the wealth and pro-
perty and intelligence of the Catholics in Ireland, as any attempt
to get back for the old proprietors, if they could be traced, the
forfeited lands, could not be devised ; in short it is a thing utterly
impossible.
Do you believe that any attempt to do that, would create gene-
ral alarm among the Catholic body in Ireland ? — I am convinced
it would not only create general alarm, but that if they had the
least notion it would be done, there is nothing which would excite
to actual civil war so soon.
Can you institute any comparison between the state of Catholic
property now, whether landed or personal property, with what it
was previous to the year 1778 ? — In numbers or numerically, I
cannot do it ; but it has increased (the only phrase at all to express
such increase is,) enormously, and it is increasing every day ; the
Union has tended very much to increase the resident Roman Ca-
tholic property in Ireland ; it drained off for every purpose of co-
lonial government, and from the expectation of promotion in the
army and navy, the Protestants; the Protestants being of a
wealthier class, when the war prices fell, they could not endure
the misery which the Roman Catholic peasant endured from habit,
and therefore they auctioned off every thing, and went off to
America in numbers; these things, as far as I have observed,
have a daily tendency to increase the resident numbers strength
and wealth of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, as compared with
the Protestants.
As compared with the period antecedent to 1778, your opinion
is, that the Catholic property, in proportion to the Protestant
property, is infinitely greater now than it was then ? — Beyond any
possible comparison certainly, and that applied to every kind of
wealth ; the Catholic commercial property was very much shaken
before 1778, by the decisions, which made judgment debts disco-
verable ; which means, that when a Catholic held a certain kind
of property, any person filing a bill in chancery, merely stating
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
the owner of the property to be a Catholic, and that he, the
plaintiff then was a Protestant, he was entitled to a decree for the
property.
The state of the law before 1778 was such, that accumulation
of property in the hands of a Catholic was difficult ? — Of landed
property impossible, but even of personal property, the moment
they laid it out on any security affecting land, and a judgment in
our country is not a lien on land, but is convertible into a lien, it
was held that the convertible nature of the judgment into a lien
on landed property, though not brought into action by what we
call an elegit, still rendered it discoverable.
Are the Committee to understand, that it is your opinion, that
of the emigrants, a much greater number of Protestants have gone
to the Colonies and the United States, than Catholics ? — A great
number of poor Catholics, but of the wealthier yeomanry a greater
number of Protestants ; for the Catholic yeomanry arose only
during the war, and they descended more easily into an inferior
station than the Protestants, who had never been in so low a
state.
You have stated that many Roman Catholics are very unjustly
excluded from being members of particular corporations in Ire-
land ? — In the city of Dublin especially ; and I understand Derry,
but I may be mistaken.
Are you to be understood to state that to be more in practice
than in law ? — The law certainly does not exclude them.
Has any remedy ever occurred to your mind to prevent this
practice ? — Yes.
Have the goodness to state it ? — By making it punishable by a
Cuniary fine, to refuse the undoubted right of a poor man, and
^ giving double or treble costs, which would easity encourage
respectable attorneys to speculate, by advancing their own money
to enforce the right ; if treble costs were given, the attornies would
be naturally looking out for the clients.
Do you think that would be a perfect remedy in all cases ? — I
think it would be an excellent if not a perfect remedy, because it
would go to the extent of the evil ; perhaps if I had the preparing
an Act of Parliament, some legislative provisions to facilitate the
modes, so as to prevent the applicants from being defeated in
matters of form, where in substance they were correct, might be
made; but with the two things together, preventing the right
being impeded by mere technical forms in the corporation, with
which by-the-by, a man who is not already in the corporation,
cannot be so well acquainted, and a provision of this kind, that
every question of right should be the matter tried, and tried in
one of the superior courts, for example, the court of King's Bench,
and there need not be a better, the thing would perhaps approach
172 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESd. EXAMINED.
to perfection ; but we should not do any thing to encourage per-
sons not entitled to be the right, unjustly to claim it ; that would
be an evil.
Have you ever looked at the Act which has been passed here,
for the admission of freemen, or for the regulation of their claims,
in the town of Coventry ? — Never, I have not seen it.
Do you apprehend it would be a beneficial regulation, if in
every corporation, they were bound to examine the claims of
freedom, at the first meeting after the petition for freedom was
presented, previous to doing any other business, save and except
the election of mayor or sheriff? — I think that certainly would
prevent what is called in Ireland " cushioning," a technical
phrase, referring to the not deciding upon the claim at all ; that
is a practice which has been much complained of.
Do you think that if means can be devised to prevent the ap-
plication of the corporate funds by the corporation, to the vex-
atious defences set up against applications for freedom, that would
have a beneficial effect? — O, certainly; if I had had it in my
contemplation when I answered the question awhile ago, I would
have added, that it would be a great additional advantage, if,
where an unfounded resistance to a just claim was made, it might
be in the power of the judge to certify his opinion of the verdict,
and then that the individuals should be themselves responsible,
as well as the corporation funds, and that the corporation might
have a remedy over for the costs which they were put to, against
the individuals ; a legal provision to some such effect, would pro-
bably diminish the resistance to the claims of poor men.
Have there been many applications within your knowledge, to
the court of King^s Bench, against the corporation of Dublin for
refusing admission to that body ? — Very few ; I have known but
of two instances of Catholics applying. Coles, the man for whom
I applied, had an unquestionable right, but he never would have
applied if I had not done it at my own expense ; the Adcocks
and Henderson, for whom we lately applied, had certainly a right,
but they never would have applied if we had not done it for them.
They were the children of Protestant parents ; their father had
exercised the right till the very moment of his death, and the
grandfather in the case of Adcocks.
Do you recollect any case of an application in respect of the
corporation of Derry ? — No, I do not know it ; I have not heard
much of Derry, beyond what I have already stated.
Have you known of applications made for the franchise in other
cities, besides Dublin ? — Limerick is familiar to me.
Those applications have been continued for many years ; have
they not? — Those applications have been continued for many
years ; the Limerick corporation, being experienced in the modes
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 173
of delay, and they have used an extreme deal of ingenuity to in-
terpose delays ; they have, under the appearance of fairness, insti-
tuted tribunals to try the right themselves, in the first instance ;
the real meaning of which is, a tribunal to exclude, in all possible
cases, as many persons as possible.
Are you quite sure that the Adcocks and Hendersons were
Catholics ? — I am quite sure ; I prepared their affidavits, and saw
the Adcocks take the Catholic oaths.
Do you know any thing of the case of a Mr. Kirkland? — Yes ;
I know Mr. Kirkland very well.
He is a Protestant ? — He is a Protestant, but I do not know of
what class ; all Protestants are on an equality in Ireland as to
civil rights.
He has applied to the corporation of Dublin for his freedom ?
— I understand he has applied, and I believe more than once, but
he certainly has applied, and I understand he has been refused ;
he has given proofs of what we call liberality, and that is almost
as bad as popery in the eyes of the corporation.
Do you know any thing of the foundation of his claim for ad-
mission ? — No, I do not.
Do you think it impossible that the corporation of Limerick, in
instituting the tribunal to try the right, had nothing else in view
but to defeat it P — I have known a great deal of the corporation
of Limerick, and I am quite convinced that they had nothing else
in view ; they have used every species of dexterity for years to
avoid the trial of the right, and to leave the corporation and its
property in the hands of an individual, who appoints the sheriff,
and every thing of that kind. I was present when a gentleman
declared, that his uncle had not nominated the two sheriffs, for it
was he who had nominated them ; that his uncle had given him, for
two or three years, the nomination of mayor and sheriffs ; this
occurred in a court of justice.
On what occasion was that ? — The name of the case was "Lord
Kiltarton against Mr. George Pitt," a barrister ; Pitt was sued as
assignee of a covenant. The case was tried before my Lord Chief
Baron ; we, for the defendant, challenged the array of the jurors,
on the ground that both sheriffs had been nominated by Lord
Kiltarton, the plaintiff; and when the challenge was given in, the
gentleman I allude to (I do not wish to mention his name), got up,
and said in open court, " Do not persevere in that challenge, for,
upon my honour, for the last two or three years, my uncle has
given me the appointment of mayor and sheriffs, and all the mem-
bers of the corporation ; and it was I who nominated the present
sheriffs, and not my Lord Kiltarton."
What was the year in which this happened ? — I cannot mention
the year, but I believe about 181 1 ; it was at least as early as that.
174 DANIEL oV.ONNELL, ESQ.
Do you put the corporation of Dublin and the corporation of
Limerick on precisely the same footing ? — By no means. The
corporation of Limerick has been the property of a single indi-
vidual, its revenues and all ; the corporation of Dublin certainly
has not ; it has belonged to a party, but not to an individual.
You do not think the cases are in any degree parallel ? — It would
be going too far to say they are not, in any degree, parallel ; they
are parallel to a certain extent ; the lines extend the same way, but
they are by no means co-extensive.
Have you ever known of any Catholic sitting upon the com-
mission grand juries in Dublin ? — I have heard of Catholics, I
think, sitting upon the commission grand jury ; that has been a
disputed question ; but my own recollection is, that on the com-
mission grand juries they have, but on the term grand juries, in
the city of Dublin, never ; though for thirty-three years they have
certainly been eligible to that situation.
Do you suppose the reason of that to be, that in the term grand
juries they have the power of raising money on the citizens by
presentment, and not on the commission grand juries ? — I do not
think Catholics would have been on the commission grand juries,
if they had any power of raising money, or the general power of
appointing to various offices ; the term grand jury in Dublin has
a great deal of patronage, as well as the power of taxation to a
great extent ; it is, in my humble judgment, very badly consti-
tuted; there are men of very small property upon it constantly,
while Catholics of great wealth, who are taxed by those men, are
never on such grand jury.
Do you find that that exclusion extends as much to the rich
Protestant merchant, as to the Catholic merchant ? — There are
rich Protestant merchants excluded certainly; but if a rich Pro-
testant merchant thought it wise to meddle in corporation politics,
he might be easily upon it, unless he was a gentleman who took
what we call the liberal side ; but any Protestant merchant, who
chose to meddle in corporation politics, of wealth, would easily be
upon those grand juries. The members of that grand jury are
principally supported by offices under the police aldermen and
sheriffs peers, and so on.
Do not those grand jurors principally consist of the corporate
offices ? — Yes.
Is it not within your knowledge, that the greatest proportion of
the wealth of Dublin is excluded from those corporate offices ; —
Practically I think it is, for the corporation is in general consti-
tuted of men not wealthy, or not commercial men ; but that is
because they are excluded by reason that several of the wealthy
Protestants do not think it worth their while, and not having an
adequate object to become corporators ; those poorer persons make
DANIEL oVoNNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
money of it, and have patronage which is equal to money ; they
therefore devote themselves to the measures which bring them for-
ward in the corporation .
Do you think that because a man in Dublin is a Catholic, what-
ever his wealth and respectability may be, he is more excluded from
sitting on those grand juries, which have the power of raising vast
sums of money, than a Protestant ? — O, certainly, much more ;
for example, the law as it stands at present precludes him from
any office in the corporation : a Catholic at present cannot be
mayor, or sheriff, or alderman, or common council-man ; he cannot
be master or warden of any of the guilds ; he can hold no situation
in the corporation but that of mere freeman ; and as the grand
jurors are constituted almost entirely of corporation official men,
therefore they are infinitely less likely to be on the grand jury
than Protestants of any class.
Does there not exist as much dissatisfaction among the wealthy
Protestant community, at being excluded from those grand juries,
as exists among the Catholics ? — I do not think the degree is as
great; there does exist dissatisfaction certainly. I believe the
wealthy Protestant merchants concur with the Catholics in being-
dissatisfied with the present system, and are much dissatisfied with
it ; but this dissatisfaction is imbittered to the Catholic by reli-
gious dissension, to a degree which increases the unpleasantness
of the feeling a great deal.
Is it your opinion, that there is no remedy for those inconve-
niences that arise out of the corporation system of government, ex-
cept by a total change in the charter of incorporation ? I do not
think a total change at all necessary ; I think by a fair and liberal
spirit actuating the government, and particularly the not giving
promotion in the various offices in the patronage of government,
to violent partisans of any kind, much may be done to bring the
corporation of Dublin to be practically useful ; but I think, as the
offices are given only to those who distinguish themselves in a par-
ticular way, it is a stimulus to that course.
Can the government prevent the corporation distributing the
offices in their gift, as they like ? — The government of Ireland, I
take it, have complete control over the corporation of Dublin ; for
there are so many offices in the gift of government, removeable at
pleasure, to be given to Dublin corporators, particularly those con-
nected with the police, that if the government chose to point out
that they should shape their course in a different way, the thing
would be done in half an hour, as I conceive; I mean, very speedily.
Do not you think, that some events have happened lately, which
prove that the government have not that complete control over
the corporation ? — I think not ; the Irish government is divided ;
there is a certain portion of it with which the corporation acts, and
176 DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
whose power enables the corporation to act against another portion
of it,
You have stated, that Protestants are excluded as well as Catho-
lics from serving on the different grand juries, as being what you
call liberals ; you mean by that, those that are considered generally
favourable to the Catholic claims ? — I do.
Do you conceive that, under the present system, that prejudice
exists against the admission of Protestants into any offices, who do
not maintain opinions favourable to the Catholic claims? — Oh,
yes ; so much so, that it would be utterly impossible for any man
who entertained an opinion favourable to the Catholics, to become
a sheriff of Dublin, utterly impossible ; on the contrary, no man
can now be sheriff of Dublin, who does not give an unequivocal
pledge of his hostility to the Catholics.
Does that extend to all offices, to that of Lord Mayor ? — No ;
the Lord Mayor is generally taken in a certain rotation. There
are some aldermen, liberal ; Alderman M 'Kenny is a liberal man,
and Alderman Smyth, the late Lord Mayor, also.
Are the majority of the aldermen supposed to be liberal ? — The
majority of the aldermen are supposed to be liberal, or at least
disposed to liberality.
Explain how you account for the circumstance, as no person can
be alderman who has not served the office of Sheriff, of its being
necessary to give that pledge, before men are elected Sheriffs ? —
The pledge has been of a later date. There was a time when a
better feeling existed in the corporation of Dublin ; and the revo-
lutionary principle, which had a bad effect elsewhere, made a kind
of community of feelings among the Irish, in many instances ; and
there were a class of men who^grew up and got into wealth, being
corporators, who, without going to the extent of revolution, had
liberal political notions generally, and some of that party have got
into the court of aldermen; they are most worthy and excellent men.
What is the pledge of hostility which a high Sheriff of Dublin
is obliged to give, before he can fill that situation ? — He is obliged
to give a pledge of toasting at all public dinners, that which is con-
sidered, and intended, as an insult to the Catholic population, "The
glorious and immortal memory."
Do you consider drinking that toast, a pledge of hostility against
the Roman Catholic population of Ireland ? — It certainly is in
Dublin, and generally, in Ireland it is considered so, and, as far
as I have ever heard , intended as such ; I never knew any man
give it in public, that did not mean it so.
" The glorious memory,1' is, the health of King William ? —
66 The glorious memory ," is not the health of King William alone,
for it is current in Ireland with the brass money and wooden shoes,
popery and slavery, and a great deal more.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 177
What is the date of that pledge ? — I cannot exactly say. In
the south it would not be done at all.
Do not Roman Catholics frequently drink the health of King
William ? — I have known Catholics give the health of King Wil-
liam, as I should give it myself, as an assertor of the principles
of civil and religious liberty.
Do you think it is ever drunk with that feeling by the high
Sheriff' of Dublin ? — Never; on the contrary, the high Sheriff of
Dublin drinks it with a view to put down civil and religious liberty.
Can you say what is the sense in which a man drinks a toast ? —
Yes ; from the general tenour of a man's conduct, and the pre-
ceding discourse ; and many of those gentlemen to whom I impute
that, would be greatly astonished, if I formed any other notion of it.
On what occasion does the Sheriff give that pledge ? — There is,
generally, a meeting at Morrison's, previously to an election of
sheriffs, of the gentlemen who influence the elections in the com-
mon council : they arrive about the hour of eleven o'clock, and
they canvass who shall be sheriff; and no man has any chance,
at present, of succeeding, unless he gives the pledge ; and when
the corporation meet, it is announced openly, that he has pledged
himself to give that toast.
Has not " The glorious memory" been drunk by the corpora-
tion of Dublin for many years ; is it not a sort of charter toast ? —
I do not think it has : the impression upon my mind is this, for
some time after I was called to the bar, I do not think it used to
be drunk ; and, certainly, it was given up for some time.
Do you believe that the corporation of Dublin, or any other
gentlemen, could really intend to give that toast as an offence to
the Catholics ; or is it not more likely, that the Catholics have
taken this as an offence to themselves ? — Oh, no : certainly they
mean it as a sign of superiority and triumph, and that they deter-
mine not to allow the civil equalization of things that we are seeking
for ; it is a kind of Shibboleth of party, denoting foregone triumph,
and bespeaking future degradation to us.
Are those feelings -expressed in the toast, as announced? — In
general they are ; and, as appears by the newspaper reports, in the
most offensive shape. We know of them, of course, only from the
newspapers ; they are generally accompanied by very violent de-
clarations of hostility to the Catholic claims.
What do you conceive to be the date of the Orange Associa-
tion ? — About the year 1795 is the date of the Orange Association.
Have you any doubt that that toast has existed, and been the
usage, ever since the reign of King William ? — I am sure that par-
ticular toast has existed ever since the Revolution ; that is the
reason that quite convinces me of its offensive nature, for it was a
kind of charter toast after the violation of the treaty of Limerick,
178 DANIEL O'CONNF.LL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
and the enactment of the penal laws ; it was one of the pledges
that kept men together during that period, when the Catholics
were thus excluded, and all the invasions upon their properties and
rights committed.
The Committee may collect, that it has not been taken up as a
recent invention, for the purpose of insult, but merely persevered
in ? — Persevered in ; and felt more, as the government and the
law have become favourable to the Catholics : while the govern-
ment was hostile to the Catholics, the individuals giving this toast
were considered quite in accordance to the government, and not
noticed ; but when the law put the Catholics, to a certain extent,
under the protection of government, and we became, to a certain
degree, subjects, the Orange party, with their great and volunteer
association going beyond the law, arid threatening us beyond it,
the toast had an effect which it had not before.
Do you believe that, in point of fact, the Catholics used to take
offence at it, thirty or forty years ago ? — Yes, I am quite sure of
that. I have known among Catholic gentlemen, and persons of an
Orange cast, quarrels arising constantly ; and their considering it
a personal offence, and retaliating in an offensive manner on Pro-
testants who pledged that toast in their presence.
Have you not heard, that about thirty or forty years ago, the
Roman Catholic gentlemen used to join in drinking the toast ? —
Yes, as " The glorious memory" ; after the year 1782, there was
a better spirit created in Ireland between the Catholic and Pro-
testant ; they almost forgot their dissensions : and at that period,
if " the glorious memory1' had been given in the presence of a
Catholic, he would have joined in it ; for, after all, the spirit of
civil and religious liberty 'is as dear to us as to the Protestant.
Do you not believe, that the Roman Catholic population in
Dublin used to turn out, and go round the statue of King William
on his birth-day ? — Yes ; the Catholics at that period, fired over
the statue of King William, and joined in it heartily.
You state that the corporation of Dublin were encouraged in
illiberality, by a portion of the government ? — I state that as my
opinion ; and it is very strongly my opinion.
Upon what facts do you form that opinion ? — Knowing that
there is a portion of the government of Ireland, what we call
" liberal," and conceiving, and in the same manner knowing that
there is a portion which we call " illiberal,"" and seeing that the men
get promotion in the city of Dublin, who belong to the illiberal
party, I think, to my mind, there is not so decisive a proof of en-
couragement as giving office and emolument.
Can you state the cases in which that has been done ? — It is not
pleasant to name individuals, but I will name Alderman Dariey
for example ; he is notoriously an extremely illiberal person, he
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 179
has lately been promoted, by getting an additional office, estimated
at 760/. a year; Alderman Fleming was the rival candidate, but
Alderman Darley was preferred by the illiberal and more powerful
part of the Irish government ; the contrast between the two is very
striking to us, and yet Alderman Fleming's liberality was not so
very decided, that it ought to have much injured his promotion.
Is that the only instance ? — No ; but take them all round, I do
not think you will find one of the liberal party in office ; at least
it does not strike my recollection, that there is one of the liberal
party holding one of the offices government bestow. Alderman
M'Kenny is totally excluded ; Alderman Harty, who is liberal,
is totally excluded ; Alderman Smyth, I believe, has got no situ-
ation under government, and he is liberal ; and I undertake, if
the names are mentioned of those who hold the offices in the gift
of the Irish government, they would all be found to be the fiery
partisans of the Orange faction.
Can you state how many cases have occurred during Lord Wel-
lesley's administration ? — I cannot state how many, but all that
occurred were of that description ; it would, however, be unfair to
attribute it to Lord Wellesley personally.
Can you conceive any reason, why Alderman Darley should be
preferred to Alderman Fleming, beyond differences in their reli-
gious opinions ? — I cannot ; I am not in the state secrets ; but I
believe Alderman Fleming to be a very worthy man.
Have you any reason to believe, that for a great number of years
back, Alderman Darley has ever attended any Orange lodge or
society ? — Attending Orange lodges is not to my mind a criterion ;
I suppose, since the passing of the Act of last year, he has not at-
tended, but he is linked as much with the Orange party as possible.
Have you any reason to think, that in any one instance, in the
discharge of his duty as a magistrate, Alderman Darley has ever
shown any favour or partiality to a Protestant, rather than a Ca-
tholic ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with the detail of his
duty in his office, and besides, in his office, there is a barrister or
two ; I do not insinuate that it is so, but certainly I would rather
be an Orangeman than a Catholic, if I was going into his office.
That is your own opinion rather than a fact ? — Alderman Darley
was an Orangeman notoriously ; some years ago, he was the person
that immediately after the king left the room, when he was in Ire-
land, gave the offensive toast, insulting the king himself; the
strongest instance imaginable in my judgment ; so that it is not
my opinion merely, but is founded on facts of a decisive and un-
equivocal nature.
Alderman Darley goes to the house of those who are not Orange-
men, whereas he expects the Protestants to come to his own office ?
N 2
180 DANIEL O'CONNELI, ESQ. EXAMINED.
— I think he had no right to come to me in this country ; they do
not arrest for constructive breaches of the peace.
Will you give your construction of an Orangeman ? — Strictly
speaking, an Orangeman is a person who has been sworn according
to the ceremonies, which vary in the Orange lodges ; there have
been, as I understand, five or six variations in the signs and pass-
words of the Orangemen ; they were of a worse character, as I
understand, formerly ; and they have become more mitigated in
latter times. The Orange system is, to my judgment, something
formed upon the freemasonry ; there is a grand lodge in Dublin ;
there are lodges held in the country, and affiliated from the grand
lodge. No man, strictly speaking, is an Orangeman, but a man,
who, at one time or other, had the password and sign, and had
taken the Orange oath, so that he could go into a lodge, as a free-
mason may go into their lodges ; that is in strictness my opinion
of an Orangeman. There are outlyers who do not belong to a
lodge, and I never considered those persons, though we may
familiarly so term them, as Orangemen.
Strictly speaking, do you think Orangemen, according to your
definition, exist to a great number in Ireland? — Yes; the num-
bers are so much exaggerated by the partisans, that I am not
able to form a very decided opinion upon it ; I should take it
there are from twenty to twenty-five thousand men affiliated in
the lodges in Ireland; I must, of course, speak from conjecture
on that subject.
In applying the term Orangeman in all the discussions which
unfortunately take place in Ireland, do gentlemen who take part
in them confine themselves strictly to the persons who are mem-
bers of that society, or do they apply the term to Protestants
indiscriminately? — Oh, never; there is nothing better marked
amongst us than the distinction betwixt Protestant and Orange-
man ; for myself, some of my nearest relations, and most of my
dearest friends, are Protestants ; it is universal, down to the
lowest peasants to discriminate between Protestants and Orange-
men in the southern provinces,
Is there any intermediate class of Protestants which are neither
what you would ca.* liberal, nor yet fall within the description
and definition you have applied to Orangemen ? — Yes, there is ;
we make a distinction between Protestants and liberal Protes-
tants, but we make a marked distinction between Orangemen and
both those classes. A liberal Protestant in Ireland is an object
of great affection and regard from the entire Catholic population;
amongst ourselves we always talk of him as a protector and a
friend ; a Protestant, who is not an Orangeman, is spoken of as a
stranger merely would be, but without feelings of hostility ; the
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESa. EXAMINED. 181
Protestant who is an Orangeman, is considered as decidedly an
enemy, and the extent of that enmity depends upon the peculiar
education and habits of the individual who speaks of it; the
peasantry speak of them as of Exterminators, I mean of a sworn
or affiliated Orangeman.
Do you think that if there are twenty-five thousand Orange-
men in Ireland, scattered all over the face of the country, as they
are in different parts of it, it is possible for them to produce all
that disturbance of which we have heard in various speeches, in
and out of Parliament ? — I believe as far as my evidence here
goes, I have not attributed the disturbances to the Orangemen
solely or exclusively ; on the contrary, the first day I was examined,
I spoke of other causes. I do not know that it has ever been
attributed to Orangemen alone ; and my opinion is, not that the
disturbance is created merely by their being Orangemen, nor if
the number was doubled, would it be created by that.
Is not the word Orangemen frequently applied to persons, who
though not members of an Orange lodge, are known by the vio-
lence of their principles to be fit to belong to it ? — Yes, it is.
Is it not applied to such Protestants as are adverse to the Ca-
tholic claims ? — No ; there are many Protestants who are adverse
to the Catholic claims, and are not considered as Orangemen;
no man is considered an Orangeman, who has not shown some
activity in his resistance, and who has not marked in some way
himself a distinction, or been supposed to have marked it, be-
tween Catholic and Protestant, or at least, who is not at least
accused of it.
Do you think there are many gentlemen belonging to Orange
lodges, who fill the situation of magistrate in the north of Ire-
land?— I speak of the north of Ireland from information, not of
my own knowledge ; I am therefore less competent to give ac-
curate information, but according to the information I have, the
impression made upon the Catholics, and those in particular who
take an active part upon the subject, is, that there are a number
of Orangemen in the magistracy of the north ; but the great evil
which is complained of, is the number of Orangemen that are in
the armed yeomanry.
Do you know the amount of the armed yeomanry in Ireland ?
—I do not ; the relative proportions of the north and south are
very disproportionate ; in the south the number of yeomen is
small, the great proportion of the yeomanry are in the north.
Supposing there are but twenty-five thousand Orangemen in
Ireland, can there be a great proportion of them in the yeomanry
corps ? — My opinion is, the greater proportion of Orangemen in
Ireland are in the yeomanry corps,
182 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Have you any facts by which you can justify that opinion ? —
Only the information which we constantly receive from the north.
In many instances the Catholics complain to us, or to me pri-
vately, and through the Catholic clergy. The information I
thus receive, of acts of maladministration of the law, and par-
tiality, and of oppression of Catholics, and of favour shown to
Orangemen ; such are the sources of my information, and are my
grounds for the opinions I express.
Do you consider the dissensions which unfortunately prevail
between Orangemen and Roman Catholics, as in any consider-
able degree instrumental in having produced the disturbances in
Ireland ? — Yes, if not produced, greatly aggravated, and tended
much to continue them, particularly by reason of the notion that
the government was connected with the Orange system, and by
that means creating a recklessness in the minds of the peasantry,
and exciting a perpetual and irremediable hostility, while the
Orange system shall last ; but the disturbances of Ireland lie
much deeper. They are created by the peculiar state of the
country, by poverty, the nature of tenure, tithes, church rates,
and various other matters. The Orange system aggravates and
perpetuates the evil.
Can your recollection assign any instance, in which it has ever
become necessary to apply the Insurrection Act to any one of the
northern countries ? — No.
Do not you think that rather affords a presumption, that the
dissensions between the Protestants and Roman Catholics have
not been, in any considerable degree, the cause of the inducing
the necessity of applying that Act ? — I do not think it does.
There are more resident gentry in the north, and there is less
disturbance where there are resident gentry. There is a constant
application of armed force in the north. The Catholics in the
north are, I believe, more organized into ribbon-men, and the
ribbon-men do not, if I may so say, choose to fritter away their
strength in those driftless acts of outrage, which the peasantry in
the south do. With respect to the stability of the country, if a
foreign enemy were to invade it, the north is in greater danger
from its Catholic population than the south; they are better
organized. We have a great deal more trouble to check ribbon-
ism than to check whiteboyism in the south. By we, I mean
the Catholic Association, and those who have taken an active part
in Catholic politics.
You consider the insurrectionary movements which have taken
place in the south as distinct from ribbonism ?— Entirely ; the
only feature they have in common is, that the insurrectionary
movements in the south were also coupled with secret association.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 183
and oaths of obedience and secrecy : they have that feature in
common. It is astonishing to what a degree of fidelity an Irish
peasant obeys his oath of secrecy.
In speaking of the influence of the Orange association, in pro-
ducing mischievous consequences in Ireland, do you think the
Ribbon associations have been promoted by the Orange associa-
tions ? — The Ribbon associations owe their origin entirely to the
Orange associations ; and I even think, that if the Orange pro-
cessions alone were suppressed, that would go very far to suppress
Ribbonism ; but the men excuse themselves thus, that they must
be prepared for the next twelfth of July, or fourth of November,
or Derry day, or whatever they call it, when the Orange pro-
cession is to take place.
Do you know at what time the Ribbon association began in the
north of Ireland ? — No, I cannot say when it began. My own
opinion is, that it is a continuation of the Defender system, which
immediately ensued on the original formation of the Orange as-
sociation in the north, and was connecting itself with the French
Revolution, looking at a complete revolution in Ireland, and a
separation from England. The Defender association was at first
confined to the lower classes, but had the bad feature of being
almost exclusively Catholic, as the Ribbon system is exclusively
Catholic. Before the Defender system was put down, the Pres-
byterians joined a good deal among the Defenders, 'and thus
combined, they mixed with the United Irishmen, when the events
of the rebellion put down the Defenderism. Since that period,
in proportion as the Orange irritation increased in the north of
Ireland, has that of Ribbonism increased.
Do not you think the extension of the Ribbon system, within
the last few years, has considerably tended to spread Orangeism?
— Unquestionably they act on each other ; the existence of Rib-
bonism makes it necessary for one perhaps to become an Orange
man, and the existence of Orangeism has certainly created many
Ribbon men.
Does not it appear that the outrages that have taken place, in
the north of Ireland, have generally taken place in consequence
of conflicts between the Ribbonmen and Orangemen? — No; a
great many of them, in my opinion, and I have looked at them
pretty closely, have originated with the mere insolence of triumph
of the Orangemen, speaking of the lower classes of them. In
their lodges they work themselves up into a great hatred of po-
pery ; they go out ; they are armed with muskets and ball cart-
ridges ; and, at the slightest sign of disrespect to them, they fire
at the peasants.
Do you mean to say that they go out with arms to fairs, for
instance, where men of both political feelings assemble^ that one
184 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED,
party goes armed and the other is unarmed ? — I have not the
least doubt that if that were the subject of inquiry, it could be
established, that the Orangemen go to fairs unarmed ; certainly
the Catholics, many of whom are Ribbonmen, go equally un-
armed, but the Orangemen, in general, leave their arms in a
depot, about a mile or half-a-mile from the fair. In the evening
particularly, a riot is easily excited, and the Ribbonmen are
equally willing to commence it with the Orangemen ; then the
practice has been for the Orangemen to retreat upon their arms,
and take their arms and shoot away, and many lives have been
lost.
Will you mention any circumstances of that kind which has
occurred ? — The names of the places are not familiar to me at
this moment ; but in the county of Monaghan, six or seven lives
were lost, about eight years ago, in that way ; but I have no he-
sitation at all in saying, that in the course of a week I can give
many names of places where that occurred ; the facts themselves
have come to us very distinctly.
You stated your recollection of a riot which took place at
Maghera, where the Orangemen went into that town, with arms
in their hands, to attack the Catholics ? — No ; my recollection,
but I speak from loose recollection, is, that the Orangemen were
unarmed when the riot commenced ; my recollection is, that the
Orangemen were the persons attacked originally ; and then, after
the riot commenced, my recollection from information is, that
they supplied themselves with arms.
In that case had the Orangemen formed any depot of arms in
the neighbourhood ? — So I understood.
With reference to the possible events of that evening ? — Yes ;
and there were five or six Catholics shot.
Were there any Protestants shot ? — No, not one ; there could
not be any shot, for there were no arms on the other side.
In the case of Maghera, did the Orangemen go back to their
houses to get their arms, those houses being in the neighbour-
hood ; or had they previously prepared their arms in the depot,
with reference to the possibility of their being obliged to use
them ? — I understand they had left them a quarter of a mile or
half-a-mile from the town, and left them in a depot ; not in their
houses certainly, for they could not have gone there. That was
the representation made in public.
Was there any person of any note arraigned, for being accessary
to this murder? — There was a Mr. Kennedy, the son of a Presby-
terian clergyman, arraigned for it ; he was acquitted, and I be-
lieve honourably acquitted:
Do you know the position of the town of Maghera ? — Not at
all ; I have never been there.
DANIEL O'CONNEIL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 185
One of the causes of the superior tranquillity of the north of
Ireland, you state to be the residence of the gentry ? — So I have
understood.
A great many of those gentry are Orangemen ; are they not ?
— Some of them are, I dare say.
Did you not state the majority of magistrates, in the north of
Ireland, to be Orangemen ?— I do not know that I said the ma-
jority, from information perhaps I did ; but I said many magi-
strates were, in the north. I would not say, if I did, on reflec-
tion, that I apprehended the majority of them were ; but many,
and many active magistrates were.
Is it not a matter of fact in Ireland, that at the time of the
Defender system, to which you allude, the Orange Association
lent much assistance to the government in the suppressing the
rebellion ? — I do not think the Defenders made the rebellion ;
the Defenders were merely organized when the Orangemen were
desolating the country. The Orangemen, described by Lord
Gosford in his speech, turned six or seven hundred families out
of the county of Armagh, by wrecking their property, and in
many instances undermining their houses, and threatening them
with Hell or Connaught, without any other cause whatsoever but
their being Roman Catholics ; to resist that persecution was the
origin of the Defender system. The Defender system, as I un-
derstand, commenced as a re-action to that, as a protection from
that kind of system.
At the time of the rebellion, in 1798. is it not a matter of
notoriety in Ireland, denied by no man, that the Orange Asso-
ciation did lend material aid to the government, in defeating the
conspiracy at that time ? — My opinion is very much the reverse ;
my notion of the notoriety of the fact is, that calling it notoriety,
is not an exact representation of the fact ; the rebellion of 1798,
commenced with the Presbyterians and Dissenters as United
Irishmen ; the upper classes of the Catholics had no kind of
connexion whatever with it in the north ; when the Dissenters,
who had been united Irishmen, were defeated especially at Saint-
field, and after the murder of Lord O^Neil by them, then they
got protection by becoming Orangemen, and they joined most
heartily in prosecuting and bringing to deserved punishment, in
many instances, men who had joined them in rebellion ; but I
think the rebellion of 1798, was very much brought to explode,
to use an expression employed by an Orangeman in the Irish
parliament, by reason of the Orange lodges and the Orange
system.
There were many Catholics among the United Irishmen, were
there not ? — Scarcely any among the leading United Irishmen ;
the leading United Irishmen were almost all Presbyterians or
186 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Dissenters; in the north the lower classes of United Irishmen
were at first almost exclusively Dissenters ; it spread then among
the Roman Catholics, and as it spread into the southern counties^
and of course, as it took in the population, it increased in its
numbers of Roman Catholics ; in the county of Wexford, where
the greatest part of the rebellion raged, there were no United
Irishmen previous to the rebellion, and there would have been no
rebellion there if they had not been forced forward by the esta-
blishment of Orange lodges, and the whipping and torturing,
and things of that kind.
There were many Roman Catholics in the ranks of the United
Irishmen, were there not ? — Yes ; but it is a singular fact, that
the number of Roman Catholic gentlemen, who were engaged in
the rebellion of 1798, was extremely few.
At that period, the Defenders and Orangemen were openly
engaged in the field ? — The Defenders have become United
Irishmen, and they joined the Dissenting United Irishmen; I
have heard, that the Defenders were originally Roman Catholics,
and the Dissenters came amongst them, and then Defenderism
was merged in the United Irishmen, and of course, the Orange-
men being at the side of the government in the rebellion, the De-
fender coalesced with the United Irishmen, and being United
Irishmen, were of course against the Orangemen.
They became opposed to one another ? — Yes, in open battle,
more than once, as I believe.
Do you not think a great deal of the ill-will, which you de-
scribe as existing in the Roman Catholic peasantry, in the present
day, towards the Orangemen, may have originated in something
of that kind ? — I do not think it can at all have so originated ;
an Irish peasant is not a speculative character ; he has not leisure
for much speculation ; the practical and continued instance of
insult and triumph over him, is much more likely to stimulate
him than any thing of that kind ; and I am sure they have totally
forgotten the rebellion, and all interest in it.
You are acquainted with the oaths of Orangemen, are you
not ? — I have seen the printed oaths of Orangemen, and I had
information, that the secret oaths were different ; I have had
that information from persons whom I have reason to confide in.
You have had such positive knowledge on the subject of the
Orangeman^s oaths, that you do not hesitate to describe publicly
what they are, and what they are not ? — I do not know that I
have described publicly the Orangeman's oaths ; I do not believe
I have ; the Orangeman's passwords and signs, I have had from
various sources. My first information was from a gentleman \vho
is now dead, Captain O'Grady, of the Limeric Militia.
Was he an Orangeman ?-— No, he was a Catholic ; but he was
DAKIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 187
in the north in the militia, and that regiment joined with the
He
king's troops in putting down the rebellion.
It was Captain O'Grady gave you your information ? —
was the first ; he has been dead many years.
Have you had any other information on the subject ? — Yes,
frequently.
From Orangemen ? — Yes, from Orangemen.
From such information as you could rely upon ? — From such
information as I thought I could rely upon with great confidence,
details given me upon the subject, and tracing out for example ;
the system has changed four or five times.
If you are reported correctly, you stated in a speech you made
on Saturday, that you were ready to prove at the bar of the
House of Commons, that one of the secret oaths of the Orange-
men, was a verse taken from the 68th Psalm and the 23d verse,
" that my foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and
the tongue of thy dogs in the same ? " — Not an oath at all ;
and the very terms of the verse shew that it could not be part of
an oath.
Will you have the goodness to state, what part of the system it
forms ? — A password it formed, as I understood, or something
of that kind ; it does not at present ; it has been changed, as I
understand.
Are you prepared to state, that it ever was part of the Orange
system in Ireland ?-— It was a password ; I am prepared to state,
from my information ; it would be impossible for me to be an
Orangeman, and therefore I can speak only from information-
Was your informant an Orangeman ? — Yes, my informant was
a person, who was stated to me to be an Orangeman.
Your informant was stated to you to be an Orangeman ? — To
have been an Orangeman.
The informant did not give that account of himself, did he ? —
I got in writing, from the informant upon that particular subject,
the information ; I refused to see him, because, circumstanced as
I am in Ireland, I do not like to hold personal intercourse.
Do you believe he was an Orangeman ? — I do.
What was his name ? — I should certainly wish not to mention
that ; I pledged my sacred word of honour, that I would not
mention the name of a person who came to me on this subject ;
a most solemn pledge as a gentleman that I would not give his
name. I gave money to my informer ; I was also to give more
money, after giving as solemn a pledge as a gentleman could,
that I would not mention the name ; but at the time I made the
pledge, that he should come forward by summons in a court of
justice, for I would not give any pledge that should exclude
evidence from a court of justice.
188 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Do you mean that he took money for the information he ga
you ? — He did.
Can you state any other information he gave you ? — Yes, e%
gave me a detail of the making of an Orangeman at great length,
the ascent to the hill of Bashan.
Precisely, did he communicate to you the nature of the ques-
tions by which Orangemen may know each other ? — Yes, the
questions ; at that time he gave me in writing a detail of.
Do you happen to recollect them ? — No, I do not ; but I have
them.
Would you recollect them, if you heard them ? — Probably not
in detail, but it is likely that to-morrow I might have them ; but
certainly I could get them by writing to Ireland.
Was one of the questions, u Where are you coming from ?"—
I believe so.
" From the deep," was that the answer ? — Yes.
" Where are you going to; to the hill of Bashan ?" — There
was the hill of Bashan.
" Was it a high hill ; a high hill even as the hill of Bashan ;"
do you recollect whether that was the nature of the lecture ? —
I do not.
Was there any harm in the lecture, in any part of it ? — In the
lecture itself none.
Did you hear of any other in which there was harm ? — I got
from one person a lecture, and from another a lecture, resembling
much that which was just said ; a.nd I read it at the Catholic
Association, and it was put into the newspapers.
Your informant did not tell you that the words " the high
hill, the hill of Bashan," and the password " Sinai," were the
only words in the whole of the 68th psalm, that form a part of
the Orange system, did he ? — One informant confined himself to
that, but did not say they were the only words ; that informant,
(for I am desirous to say every thing which I can, without a
breach of faith,) I gave money to also ; that person I believe to
be a person of the name of Tobin, the person who gave me the
information now referred to ; and from the person whom I be-
lieve to be Tobin, there was nothing of the 68th psalm, but some-
thing so nearly resembling that which is now stated, that I have
very little difficulty in considering it as identical.
Are you much in the habit of getting information you pay
for ? — It depends upon its nature ; I would not pay for it, if I
did not think it was worth the money that I gave for it.
How would such evidence be received in a court ? — It is con-
stantly received in court in criminal cases, and necessarily re-
ceived ; one would not have a single conviction in the south of
Ireland of those horrible outrages, if the persons were not either
DANIEL O'CONNELT,, ESQ. EXAMINED. 189
paid or expecting to be provided for ; they could not return
among their friends again, government must necessarily provide
for them ; but in my case, whether it was in a court of justice or
not, I would not have the least hesitation in giving a large sum
of money to have the Orange system explored ; I would give five
hundred guineas willingly.
Have you ever published the offer? — Yes, I have made it
known ; and I have had many offers which I have rejected.
In making this information public respecting the Orangemen,
which certainly reflects very much upon their character, do you
not think it would have been as well if you had published the
terms on which the information had been procured, as far as
regards the Orange Association ? — Certainly, if it had lain in my
way I would ; I would not do any thing derogatory to any human
being, without giving him perfectly fair notice at the time ; I
originally published that in the Catholic Association which has
been mentioned ; I also distinctly mentioned that I had given
money for the information, and that I was to give more.
If Lord O'Neill were to protest, or any other respectable
Orangeman in Ireland, denying the fact which has been asserted
by you, that this ever was a part of the oath of an Orangeman,
would you disbelieve his assertion ? — I would believe every thing
that a gentleman in that rank of life asserted ; I would believe
that he would not assert positively that which was untrue ; but
this would remain on my mind, that the lower classes of Orange-
men indulge in a system, and have tests and passwords, which
the honourable member who has declared himself an Orangeman,
(Mr. Brownlow) I am quite convinced would be incapable of
acceding to ; I would not think existence worth having, if I could
believe a gentleman of rank and station could assert on his honour
what was not strictly true.
Did you never hear of an Orangeman supporting the Roman
Catholic claims ? — I never did.
Did you never hear of the circumstance of some Orangemen
in the House of Commons, who supported the Catholic claims ? —
I never did.
Is it a popular opinion in Ireland, that all the members of the
House of Commons who resist the Roman Catholic claims, are
Orangemen ? — Oh, certainly not.
Not even a popular impression ? — Certainly not.
Is not Mr. Goulburn called an Orangeman in Ireland ? — Yes.
Is Mr. Leslie Foster called an Orangeman in Ireland ? — No,
I never heard that Mr. Leslie Foster was an Orangeman, nor do
I believe that he is.
Is it your impression that Mr. Goulburn actually is an Orange-
190 DANIEL oV?ONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
man ? — It is my opinion certainly, that he is not at present ;
certainly not since the Act of Parliament.
Or that he ever was ? — I heard from a person of high credit,
that Mr. Goulburn said ia his presence, that he had taken the
Orange oath.
Was that the same informant who has given you the rest of
your information on other subjects ? — No, not at all.
Was he paid for that information ? — Not at all ; he was a per-
son incapable of being paid for any thing.
You are persuaded that the information was not correct ? — If
I had the honour of hearing Mr. Attorney-General say so, I
would be most thoroughly persuaded of his veracity ; or if it
were denied by any body that was authorized to deny it, I should
cease to believe Mr. Goulburn to be an Orangeman.
Have you ever heard that Mr. Dawson was an Orangeman ? —
No ; I heard that Mr. Dawson was not an Orangeman.
Is not he reckoned as bad ? — Oh no ; he is reckoned bad
enough, but not so bad as that. Mr. Dawson is a gentleman
whom we expect, one day or other, to be voting for the Catholics.
I am not without my hope of it.
What is your impression, as to the extent of the Population in
Ireland ? — My impression upon the extent of the Population of
Ireland is, that it must exceed Eight Millions.
On what do you found that impression ? — The parliamentary
returns made it nearly seven millions. I am convinced that is
extremely underrated in the county of Mayo. I have reason to
believe, that during the distress of 1822, there were some lists
made by two gentlemen, peculiarly accurate in taking down the
names of the persons relieved there. There were jealousies
amongst those that received the English money, and they were,
therefore, cautious in taking down the names of persons relieved.
You mean the charity fund ? — Yes ; the " English money" is
another name for the charity fund. I understand, that the num-
ber of persons relieved by name exceeded the Parliamentary
return by something like eleven thousand; so that there appeared
in that county, upon the number of persons relieved, eleven thou-
sand more persons than the return gave in the entire county.
Have you sufficient data, assuming the number to be eight
millions, for stating to the Committee what you conceive to be
the actual number of Protestants and Roman Catholics ? — Those
things must be conjecture, to a certain extent. I have seen, for
a number of years past, a manifest increase in the relative propor-
tion of Catholic and Protestant ; a very great increase of the Ca-
tholics, and a positive diminution, within my knowledge, of the
number of Protestants in the southern district, and in Dublin.
The amount of the Protestant population, in the different pro-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 191
vinces, varies considerably, of course ? — Yes ; and the Catholic
population is increasing in all. We were about, if we could, to
enumerate the Catholics and Protestants throughout the country.
If there had been perfect tranquillity, and no danger of the thing
being abused, it would have been d.one by the Catholic Associa-
tion; but in the southern counties, the relative proportion is
enormous.
Which do you conceive to be the most Roman Catholic county
in Ireland? — It is impossible to say that. Waterford is an ex-
tremely Roman Catholic county ; Kerry, Clare, Limerick, Cork,
is each a very Roman Catholic county ; and there is a great deal
still of resident Protestant wealth. Gal way, Tipperary, are very
Catholic counties.
Do you conceive the proportion of Roman Catholics to Protes-
tants is the same, or nearly the same, in the counties you have
enumerated? — It is nearly the same. In my own barony of
Iveragh, in the county of Kerry, the return of the population, as
I remember, was 14,680; there are about 72 Protestants; and
there are no Protestants in the world, less apprehensive of Roman
Catholics, or Papists, than they are. We live in perfect
harmony.
Do you conceive that to be a fair specimen of the relative pro-
portions of the county of Kerry ? — Yes, very nearly.
What should you conceive, in the county of Kerry, may be the
proportions of Protestants to Catholics ; do you think twenty to
one ? — They are fifty to one, and probably a hundred to one, in
the whole county. There were many Protestants formerly there,
whose families have become Roman Catholics. Before the elective
franchise was extended to Roman Catholics, the Roman Catholics
had Protestant freeholders about them. They brought in Ger-
mans called Pallatines, in the south. All the family descendants
of those persons have become Roman Catholics, almost without
exception.
If you were to be informed, on sufficient authority, that in
some of the counties you have enumerated, the ratio of the Pro-
testants to the Roman Catholics was five times greater than in
others, would you believe it ? — Yes, 1 would. My arithmetical
information on the subject is so loose, as that I could believe it
from authority ; for example, the proportion in Galway I take to
be greater than Tipperary.
In which do you conceive it to be greater, in Kerry or in
Clare ? — I am unable to answer as to the relative proportions.
The proportion of Catholics I know to be very great in each ;
perhaps there are more Protestants in proportion in Clare.
What do you conceive to be the most Protestant county in
Ireland ? — I am unable to say that ; for it would fix its station
192 DANIEL 0'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED,
in the north, which is the part of Ireland with which I am the
least acquainted.
Were you ever in the county of Artrim ? — Never.
Were you ever in the county of Down ? — I cannot exactly sa}
if I was, it was only passing to Monaghan.
Were you ever in the county of Derry ? — No.
Were you ever in the county of Armagh ? — Never.
Were you ever in the county of Fermanagh ? — Never.
Were you ever in the county of Donegal ? — Never.
Were you ever in the county of Tyrone ? — Yes ; passing from
Monaghan to Athlone.
Were you never more in Derry, than merely passing through
it? — No; I have never been in the north, except when going
specially to Monaghan.
Are you able, in any other manner than this, to form an esti-
mate 01 the proportions of Protestants and Roman Catholics, in s
the north of Ireland ? — From information merely ; having a good
deal of communication with members of the Catholic clergy, and
with professional men from those counties, and with the indi-
viduals belonging to it who were members of the Catholic Asso-
ciation. The only information that I could give, would be
derived from those sources, necessarily somewhat rude and indis-
tinct ; and reading the statistical account of the parishes published
by Mr. Shaw Mason.
If it should be the fact, that the ratio of Protestants to Roman
Catholics in some of the northern counties, is three-fold greater
than it is in others, could you name those counties in which the
ratio was the greatest ? — I could not.
Can you offer any opinion whatever to the Committee, as to
the actual number of Protestants in the province of Ulster ? —
I cannot.
Could you, in the province of Leinster ?— I could not.
Or of Connaught ? — No.
Which do you conceive to be the most Roman Catholic dis-
trict, the province of Munster, or the province of Connaught ? —
I should think, pretty much on an equality. But in these things
I am speaking loosely, as a person would do who had other
occupations to attend to, and no precise arithmetical data, at the
moment, to go upon.
Speaking loosely, what number of Protestants should you sup-
pose there were in Ireland ? — From my notion of the population,
I should think, that if there were an enumeration, the Protestants
of Ireland will not be found to amount to any thing like a
million, including Quakers and dissenters of every class.
What proportion of the number should you suppose belonged
to the Church of England ? — I should conceive one half belonged
DANIEL OVONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED, 193
to the Church of England, but not more ; the number in the
Church of England is, I think, lessening in the lower classes of
Protestants, and increasing in the higher.
Have you any particular reason for assigning one-half as the
proportion of me Established Church, rather than a third or a
fourth, or two-thirds or three-fourths? — Only that general im-
pression, that by a number of particular facts from time to time,
has formed on my mind nothing, with a minuteness that would
belong to political arithmetic.
Can you give any information to the Committee, with respect
to the relative proportion of property held by Protestants and
Catholics there ?— No, not with respect to the relative propor-
tions ; the only thing I can say upon that is, that the amount of
fee-simple estate in the hands of Protestants is much greater, in-
cluding the estates of absentees ; but I know that the relative
proportion is diminishing daily, by the increase and acquisition
of landed property by the Catholics.
Do you think the proportion is precisely in the inverse ratio of
the population ?-~Oh, not precisely ; but of the estates in fee,
I should think it would be a very good general term ; but out of
the fee, there are derivative interests of great value in the hands
of Catholics, as the freeholds for lives, with or without a clause
of renewal, and long terms for years.
Would it be too great a proportion to say, that the property
in the hands of the Protestants was, as compared with the pro-
perty in the hands of the Catholics, as ten to one throughout
Ireland ? — Of estates in fee I should take it that it would not ;
my opinion is, that certainly the Catholics are not seised in fee of
more than one-tenth of the country, if so much ; but the
derivative interests diminish the balance of Protestant property
• very greatly.
Should you be surprised if any person informed you that there
are counties in Ireland, in which the Protestant population, as
compared with the Catholic, is three to one ? — I should ; and I
should be convinced in my mind, that that individual, if he was
one of credit, was himself misinformed. I have no doubt upon
my mind, that there is no county in Ireland in which the majority
is not Catholic, and even where Catholics were, to a certain
period, totally excluded. Until lately, the Catholics were not
admitted into the town of Bandon, they are now the majority ;
until lately, they were not admitted into Derry ; they are nearly
equal, if not equal at present, according to a return which I saw
some short time ago.
Do you think that any person would be mistaken in his de-
claration, if he said that in the county of Antrim the Protestants
were three to one? — >That would be my opinion,
194 UAtflEt O^CONNP.LL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
The question includes all, except Catholics ? — I should think
so.
Do you think you are correct in your calculation, that the
members of the church of England are, with respect to Presbyte-
rians, as one half of the whole Protestant population ? — I spoke
from loose information upon that subject ; I do not mean to con-
vey any idea of correctness or accuracy ; having to answer the
question, I must answer it as nearly as I could.
Have you registered any freeholders on your property in Ire-
land ? — I have registered freeholders on the property which I ac-
quired from my father ; on the property I have lately acquired
from an uncle, I have not as yet registered them.
Did you pay the expense of registering them, or the freehold-
ers ? — I paid the entire expense.
What is the expense of registering a freeholder ? — The officers
did not allow me to pay any thing ; the expense was merely the
expense of taking the people, paying their expenses to the place
where they were registered ; the professional man, who filled the
forms, did not allow me to pay any thing.
What is the expense, if it is paid ? — I cannot state that ; a
hilling, I think, is to be paid to the clerk of the peace.
Have you known many instances in which landlords have not
egistered their freeholders ? — Oh, very many.
Have you known many instances in which the freeholders have
paid the shilling to register themselves ? — Yes ; I have known an
instance in which the freeholders did, and I know the peasantry
are anxious to register themselves; they feel the value of it.
You think, that quite the lower class of the peasantry put a
value upon their freehold ? — Oh, a great value ; they feel that it
makes them of importance ; they must, once in seven years, be
courted, and in the mean time be attended to.
In point of fact, are they courted every seven years ? — Yes ;
and even the landlords themselves court them when the election
is going on.
Is it very much the fashion, among the landlords, to canvass
their tenants, or for any of the gentlemen proposing themselves as
candidates, to speak to the forty-shillings freeholders on the sub-
ject ? — I do not think they speak to them individually, but I know
that they court them, which was my expression ; the driver and
the land agent go round to them.
Are they not generally sent round to canvass the freeholders ?
— Not to canvass at all, but they do go to the freeholders, and
serve them ; they are, to a certain extent, obliged to look to the
interest of the freeholders.
Is the term in use ever, to " drive them in to vote ?"•— Yes, I
&ANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 195
have often heard that term, and I have seen it done ; that exists,
I am told, a good deal in Connaught.
Are there not many places where the freeholders are under such
obligations to the landlord, that they cannot refuse to vote as he
pleases ? — Certainly ; the landlord has great dominion over the
freeholders ; so much so, that they are in many instances consi-
dered part of the live stock of the estate.
In those cases, do the freeholders put any great value upon
their franchise ? — There the franchise is of value, for it gives,
where it is bona fide, a term, a life ; and in Ireland, where land
is so valuable to the peasant having a long tenure, is always va-
luable.
The tenure is a freehold, whether it is a man's own life or any
other life which is in the lease ? — It is ; they say that any uncer-
tain interest in point of law is a freehold for ever, for a life or
lives, no matter of whom, but no number of years.
Have you ever known an instance in which upon the falling in
of a lease, the land happened to be let from year to year for any
time ? — The common practice, since the depreciation of prices, is
to have a tenancy from year to year ; the leases which were made
during the war prices, in the southern counties, were so high that
the tenantry were unable to pay them ; where the landlords treated
them well, they merely got up the leases, and they let the land
from year to year at abated rents ; and since the better times, as
they are called, have commenced, very few new leases have in ge-
neral been made.
The question refers to the case where a farm has gone out of
lease, from the landlord not being able to determine immediately
how to dispose of it, whether the tenants were left as tenants at
will for a certain time ? — That is a very frequent case.
Is there any great anxiety, on the part of those tenants, to have
leases ? — Great anxiety ; all the peasantry in Ireland, I think,
are extremely anxious to get a lease ; and for this reason, they
have so little capital that they have very little to lose, if the
times should fail totally ; and if the times should rise, the advan-
tage of the tenure is great.
Supposing it were proposed to grant those persons a lease for
twenty-one years without a life, would not they be desirous that
a life should be annexed? — Very desirous, in order to have a
chance of an increased term, in addition to the twenty-one, and
very desirous of having a freehold tenure.
Does the elective franchise form a part of that desire? — It
does.
You have mentioned, that the landlords court the freeholders ?
— To a certain extent, they do.
Does your experience in Ireland enable you to state, whether
o 2
196 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED,
^ fpnnntc
any other but the landlord and the candidate, court the tenants
prior to an election ? — Yes, those who take political interest in
the event of an election ; in my own county, my brothers and
myself court the freeholders universally ; and so in other counties.
Can you specify any class of persons in particular, who very
frequently court the freeholders ? — No, not very frequently; but,
conceiving I understand the drift of the question, I have not the
least hesitation in meeting it, if it is put directly. It relates, I
conceive, to the Catholic clergy.
Do they very frequently? — Not very frequently, nor, until
recent periods, scarcely at all; at present, and for some short
time, they have ; and I think they are now much in the disposition
of courting the freeholders. I think the disposition is increased to
court the freeholders.
Can you assign any reason for that increase of disposition on the
part of the priesthood ? — Yes ; an increasing intelligence among
the priesthood themselves; an increasing sense among the Catho-
lics generally, of their degradation and the injustice done to them ;
an increasing or increased unanimity amongst the Catholic body,
enabling us to work more together, and to use, for what we con-
ceive legitimate political purposes, all the influence we possess, the
deep and settled anxiety on all our minds to procure emanci-
pation, that is, an equalization of civil rights.
Are you able to specify any particular instance in which that
interference prevailed ? — I understand it was successfully, and I
think usefully, exerted in Sligo. I have known it exerted in the
city of Cork with great success, and I think eminent utility, in
the return of Mr. Hutchinson ; to a certain extent, but not near
so much as is supposed, it was used in the county of Dublin ; but
it is right to add, that I never knew an election yet, in which the
Protestant clergy did not take a most active part, from the first to
the last ; it was not so great in the countv of Dublin, purely be-
cause it was unnecessary ; we laymen did it ourselves.
Have you not heard that it was in the county of Leitrim ? — It
might have been so, but I have not it in my mind ; in Cork, it
was principally managed by one of the cleverest, and I think one
of the worthiest, men I ever knew, the present Roman Catholic
bishop of Charlestown in North America, the Right reverend
Dr. England.
Do you feel yourself at liberty, without infringing in the
slightest degree upon that feeling which the Committee would not
wish to violate, to specify the modes by which the priests approach,
and influence, and command the votes of the freeholders ? — Upon
any subject connected with the Catholics of Ireland, their religion,
or clergy, I beg to say, that I have not the slightest delicacy in
giving the fullest and most entire information in my power, to the
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 197
fullest extent ; I have not therefore the least objection to specify
any thing I know ; and if I have a desire, standing here, it would
be to be probed to the fullest extent. I should therefore be pleased
that the questions should be put in the most direct shape.
Will you have the goodness to specify the modes by which the
Eriests approach, and influence, and command the votes of the
•eeholders? — My answer to the question is, that the manner
which they use is that of persuasion, by pointing out to the people
the distinction between the candidates ; as, for example, shewing
them that one is likely to vote, or declared he will vote against
the Catholics; that the other has declared he will vote for their
political interests ; but by persuasion simply. They never, in
any instance within my knowledge or belief, and I am convinced
it never has existed, mat any of the rites or ceremonies or sacra-
ments of the Church, have been prostituted for that purpose, or
directed towards it in any tendency; I am convinced they have not.
Do you recollect the general election of 1812 ? — Certainly I do
recollect that election.
You were in Cork at the time, or shortly previous to the elec-
tion for the county ? — I certainly was there shortly previous ; it
is my circuit, and I still attend the Cork assizes.
Were they shortly before the election ? — A few weeks before.
Did you hear that the Roman Catholic priests had threatened
to excommunicate any of those who voted against one of the can-
didates ? — I heard it, but I was quite apprized that it was per-
fectly unfounded ; it would be very easy, on this subject, to give
the most decisive information. I am quite sure that a Roman
Catholic priest has not a right to excommunicate for a mere poli-
tical matter, and he would, if he did, be instantly laid under an
interdict by his bishop ; there is not one who has a franchise, who
would not know that an excommunication for any political matter,
would be ipso facto void.
Did you hear whether they made use of any other threats from
the chapels, from the altar? — I heard it rumoured about that
time, but I am quite convinced that it was totally unfounded ; I
am perfectly sure that either of the gentlemen who were the
bishops, would not have allowed any such thing ; they were then
the right reverend Doctor Moylan, .bishop of Cork, as loyal a
gentleman as ever lived, as pure and perfect a gentleman. I am
quite convinced that he would have silenced any priest respecting
whom such a fact was brought home ; and that the right reve-
rend Doctor Coppinger, who is a gentleman of the very first class
in point of family and education, he is the bishop of Cloyne, and
he most assuredly would not have permitted any of his clergy
with impunity to have taken such measures ; he is a man of great
piety,
198 DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
You were in Cork while the poll was taking down, were you
not ? — No, I was not.
- Did you happen to hear, that in any instances the Roman Ca-
tholics had turned by force out of the booths, those who were about
to vote for one of the candidates ? — I do not think I did, but that
might take place ; in the best regulated counties, at elections there
are riots.
Have you known any instances of Roman Catholics having
been, after an election, ruined by their landlords for having voted
against them at elections ? — Yes.
Have you known many such instances ? — No, I think not
many.
Do you think the Roman Catholic tenantry would be likely to
endanger their ruin in consequence of such persuasion as you
refer to? — No, I do not think they would; in the county of
Cork, one gentleman, averse to the Roman Catholic interests,
would bring five or six hundred Roman Catholics to vote for a
member who in Parliament would vote against the Catholics.
Have you not known many hundreds of Roman Catholics,
forty-shilling freeholders, carried through the interest of the clergy
against their landlords ? — No, I have not.
Have you any doubt that many hundreds have been ? — Not
through the interest of the clergy alone ; the clergy, when they
take a part in elections, have influence ; and I beg to repeat, that
it is only latterly, I think, that the disposition is increasing in
Ireland, in consequence of the state of affairs, but they make part
of the Catholic influence ; I do not think it has ever gone to that
extent ; several have in my judgment been so influenced, but to
say hundreds is beyond my idea of it.
Have you ever known instances of almost the whole tenantry of
landlords being carried against him by the priests ? — I have heard
of instances of that kind, and believe that such things have ex-
isted, by priests aided by Catholic laymen.
Do you think that mere persuasion would induce the tenantry
of an Irish landlord to incur the risk of his displeasure ? — I do,
certainly; I have seen intense interest in a forty-shilling free-
holder, and he is after all so near the labourer, though there is a
grade between them, that if his feelings are warm he will make
the sacrifice, and become a labourer ; and then, on the other
hand, the persons in whose interest he has voted, will be induced
to pay a gales rent, which is the utmost that can be due of him,
to clear him of rent, and then he is able to pay his rent in future,
and his landlord has not dominion over him.
Admitting that the Roman Catholic clergy do not make it a
matter of sacramental obligation, do you not believe that they
have recommended it as a duty due to their religion, and as a
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 199
service well pleasing to heaven, to take a particular course ?— -I
do not think they have recommended it more than I should my-
self ; I think they have said, You are a Roman Catholic, and a
man has asked you to vote who will vote against you ; it will not
be just and honest to vote for a man, who in Parliament will vote
against you.
Do not you think an observation of that kind, proceeding from
a Roman Catholic clergyman, would have all the effect of a com-
mand, with a vast proportion of the Catholic tenantry of Ireland ?
— Certainly not all the effect of a command ; its influence would
depend upon the sort of man the Catholic clergyman was, if he
was a man devoted to the duties, it would have a great effect ;
where he was at all relaxed in his conduct it would not have the
least. As to the Catholic clergy in Ireland, iheir influence is in-
creasing very much, from causes, in my judgment creditable to
them ; they are educated at a much earlier period of life from
being educated at Maynooth, and having early education, and we
conceive the Irish people have a propensity to make good use of
their opportunities of learning ; they nave become a much better
class of men than they were formerly, they read a great deal.
In the existing state of things in Ireland, do you conceive, that
most of advantage or injury follows from the interference of the
Roman Catholic clergy in elections ? — My opinion is, that at pre-
sent it is all advantage ; I know they never interfere in doubtful or
mixed cases, and that they interfere only where there is that de-
cided hostility on the one part, and decided advantage to the Ca-
tholic interest on the other, to the interest of emancipation on the
other ; I think it is to that extent decidedly advantageous, be-
cause I cannot conceive any thing more degrading than an unfor-r
tunate Catholic peasant brought to the poll, to contribute to the
return to Parliament of a man who will vote against Catholic
rights ; I cannot conceive any thing more derogatory to human
nature than that.
Was not it a matter of notoriety in Sligo, that both the can-
didates were as adverse to the Catholic claims as they could be ?
— It was considered not ; it was considered, that the successful
candidate would vote for them, and I think he will ; that was as
far as I heard the impression.
Do you conceive, that this influence of the Catholic priesthood
in election matters would continue in its present state, if the ques-
tion of emancipation were carried ? — I am convinced it would be
totally at an end, by carrying the question of emancipation ; the
causes which give it efficacy at this moment would thereby totally
cease, and the effect would follow ; there is not any thing like a
blind submission of the Catholics to their clergy, not at all.
Does your mind suggest any other cause which would survive
the carrying the Catholic question, that could give to the Catholic
200 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESd. EXAMINED.
priesthood the power of influencing the electors ? — No ; I think
it would be unwise in government, if emancipation were carried,
(and until it was carried the Catholic clergy would not accept of
a provision) to leave them unprovided ; and I think it would be
extremely wrong in the government, to give them any part of the
revenue of the present church establishment, and that they would
not accept of it ; but I think a wise government would preserve
the fidelity and attachment of the Catholic clergy, by what I call
the golden link, by pecuniary provision, so that the government
should be as secure, in all its movements towards Foreign powers,
of the Catholic clergy, as they now are of the Protestant clergy ;
that they should be, in short, a portion of the subjects of the go-
vernment and the state identified with them.
Is it your impression, that if the question of emancipation was
carried, and there was an election to take place, in which a Pro-
testant and a Catholic were candidates, the Catholic priest would
not interfere ? — I am quite sure he would not interfere, if he were
a respectable man, and that if he did his influence would be lost;
that it would be ascribed to political motives ; that he would lose
his character with his flock ; that they would understand there
was nothing further between the two sects in political controversy.
The Catholic laity of Ireland are most decidedly adverse to any
other establishment of their clergy, than that which they would
wish the government itself should give them, by way of donation;
because our wish would be, that the government should have
proper influence over them, which a certain pecuniary connexion
would give. Our wish would be, that the government should be
strong by the combination of the subject. Our anxiety is, to be-
come subjects out and out, as the Protestants are.
In the event of emancipation being carried, you do not conceive,
that on the part of the Catholic clergy or laity, there would be an
objection to receive stipendiary support from the state, provided
the ecclesiastical subordination of the Catholic clergy was still
kept up ? — I am convinced there would not, if it was regulated
with the heads of our church, so as not to create an independence
over the bishops in the priesthood, an independence which cer-
tainly would be resisted by the bishops, and by the laity, as de-
structive to religion, and an independence which would be equally
injurious to the state, by creating dissension, and differences, and
heart-burnings, and one that could not well be realized. The
mode of provisions should be regulated by the bishops ; they
should be the persons to come into contact with the government.
There are not, in the world, a set of men more disposed to be
perfect friends with the government than the Roman Catholic
bishops.
Do you conceive it possible for any proposition for the pay-
ment of the Roman Catholic clergy to be acceptable, either to the
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
clergy or the laity, independently of the question of emanci-
pation ? — Without emancipation, it will certainly be rejected. It
would not be entertained for a moment, without emancipation.
If a clergyman accepted of it, though the bishop may keep him
in the parish, and though the people may, such of them par-
ticularly as were of a religious cast, attend and receive spiritual
assistance from him in cases of necessity, he would lose their con-
fidence altogether ; he would be in a kind of civil excommu-
nication, if I may use the expression, and certainly be totally
useless, as holding any connexion between government and the
people. It would be, in my opinion, an additional cause of
irritation, to give the clergy a provision before the Catholics were
emancipated.
Have you had communication upon this subject, with the
clergy high in the Roman Catholic church of Ireland ? — I have
spoken upon the subject with those gentlemen. There will, some
of them, be in town to-day or to-morrow; without pledging myself
at all for them, I understand that their sentiments coincide en-
tirely with those I have the honour to express.
Have you had communication also with prelates^ who are now
no more ? — I have.
Were their opinions, the opinion particularly of the late re-
spectable Catholic bishop of Kerry, in coincidence with your
own? — He was a cousin german of mine, a man of very clear
and distinct intellect, a very well informed gentleman ; his views
were in entire coincidence with those I have expressed ; he was
anxious for that arrangement, and I am sure anxious for it, from
the purest motives.
Your opinion is, that coupled with emancipation, that would be
accepted by the Catholic clergy ? — My opinion is, that coupled
with or following emancipation, it would be acceptable, but not
preceding it ; and my humble opinion is, that it would be a most
desirable thing, to have that species of settlement take place after
emancipation.
If emancipation were conceded, and this settlement made, what
would be the probable effect on the influence of the Catholic
clergy, in respect to the general administration of government,
and in respect of the general tranquillity of the country ?~The
consequence, I take it, would be precisely this ; that the Catholic
clergy would become in the nature of officers belonging to the
Crown, forwarding the views of government in every case where
there was not something that revolted in general, such as harsh
or unconstitutional illegal measures ; but that the general tenor of
their conduct would be decidedly in support of the government,
and perhaps even in instances that theoretic friends of the consti-
202 DANIEL OCONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
tution would not wish for; i believe the propensity of the Ca-
tholic clergy is very much towards an unqualified submission to
the law, and to the government whatever it may be.
Would it in your opinion have any considerable influence in
preserving tranquillity in the country ? — I am sure it would ; I
have said, that some political measures are necessary, in my
opinion lessening the dominion of landlords, making it obligatory
upon them to select better tenants, and various measures of that
kind ; and with those political measures, I am decidedly of opinion
there will be every prospect of order in every part of Ireland, if
emancipation was honestly looked into.
What do you mean by its being obligatory upon him to select
better tenants ? — The statute law of Ireland gives a landlord most
unlimited power over his tenants, to impoverish them totally, and
then turn them out at once; if those laws were altered, and the
landlords were left a good deal to common law, they would be
obliged for their own sakes, to seek for persons of character and
solvency, and not to hold an auction, as they do so frequently at
present, allowing the highest bidder to take the land without re-
ierence to his character.
Do you conceive, that if an arrangement were made for giving
stipends to the Roman Catholic clergy, and that connected with
Catholic emancipation, it would do away much of the opposition
of the Protestants of Ireland to the measure of Catholic eman-
cipation ? — I should suppose that where the opposition is, as I
presume it is in some instances conscientious, it would do so ; but
my own opinion is, that the great majority of the Irish Pro-
testants, who are unconnected with local interests and electioneer-
ing purposes, and corporations, and influences of that description,
are already favourable to emancipation ; I know an immense
number of the independent portion of the Protestants of Ireland
are favourable to that measure.
What is the general amount of payment of the priests through-
out Ireland ? — I should suppose 150/. per year would be a high
average for a parish priest himself, independent of his curate.
What is the amount of the salary of the curate ? — A curate, if
he resides with the clergyman, has 20/. or 30/. a-year, with his
horse kept for him ; if he does not reside, he has one-third of the
benefice of the parish ; every Catholic clergyman in Ireland must
have a horse, for he is liable to be called out every hour of the
day or night ; the average for the priest therefore, independent of
his curate, I should think high for a clergyman.
You think #00/. a-year for a parish, would be a sufficient sum
to cover the expenses of priest and curate ? — I should think so,
certainly ; 200£. for each parish.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 203
How many parishes are there ? — About 2,500.
The bishops have generally parishes, have they not ? — Yes ;
they could not subsist without them.
What, in your opinion, should be the stipend of the bishops ?
— That is a very delicate subject; but I should think eight hun-
dred or a thousand a-year, and an archbishop fourteen or fifteen
hundred.
Can you inform the Committee, from what sources the present
income of the Roman Catholic clergyman is derived ? — As well
as I know it, it is this ; speaking now of the country parishes,
there is an obligation in Ireland of going to confession and com-
munion twice a-year, at Easter and at Christmas, including some
period before and after Easter, and before and after Christmas ;
they get, in general, two shillings a family at least, and where
they are more solvent, two shillings from the man, and two shil-
lings from the woman, at each of those stations ; they do not get
it at the time of confession, confession cannot be connected with
money, because, as the absolution is a portion of the sacrament of
confession, it is necessary in the Catholic church, that it should
not be at ail connected with money.
Does the Catholic priest get the 2s. from each person at each
confession ? — A shilling on each occasion, according to the sol-
vency of the parties ; they are expected to get something at each
christening, a shilling or two ; they get 5s. in general for each
marriage ; then the wealthier Catholics pay a pound or a guinea ;
then they get money for saying masses for the dead ; and after
a person of any solvency, or a more decent farmer, has died,
his relations make it a point of piety to have masses said for him,
and contribute for that purpose ; the priest says those masses at
his leisure.
Is it not the practice, at marriages and burials, for the priest to
go about, and collect offerings from the persons who assemble to do
honour either to the marriage or the burial ? — No, I do not know
that the priest ever went about ; it was usual at marriages, and still
subsists at some places, that a collection is made by a friend of
the man or the woman, frequently by a friend of the man among
his friends, and a friend of the woman among her friends ; and
during the war, when the peasants were solvent, there was a
rivalry among them which should give the priests most.
You alluded to the benefit which had been derived from the
education at Maynooth ; do you think the persons who have de-
rived their education at Maynooth were superior to those who had
been educated elsewhere ? — In point of information, I think they
are ; in point of allegiance, under a proper system, they certainly
would be, because foreign education of the priests may be made a
dangerous instrument; and I have some reason to apprehend that
204< DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
that danger is not quite visionary ; at this moment those educated
at Maynooth are better educated ; for no one could go into the
priesthood formerly young, they must have remained until they
were twenty-three, and three months before they could be
priested ; they could not go abroad before they were priested,
for though they got foundations, it was necessary for them to
have the benefit of masses in the churches where they were
founded, to contribute to their support. That education, pro-
perly speaking, began about the age of twenty-four; whereas
now, at Maynooth, it begins at the earliest periods ; and when
they enter Maynooth at seventeen, they must be very excellent
scholars ; and the system of exclusion is very much, from every
thing but their studies and collegiate duties; and the human
mind obtains infinitely more of learning when it has facilities,
than the mere system necessary for the particular profession
actually requires.
Have you turned your attention to the qualification of the free-
holders of forty shillings ? — Yes.
Are there not at present a number of persons, in consequence
of that low qualification, put upon the register books, who are
by no means fit persons to enjoy the elective franchise ? — I do not
know that ; that is not my opinion ; I have a very strong notion
of the advantage of extending, under proper regulations, so as to
avoid tumult or undue influence, the elective franchise ; I do not
know any householder to whom it would be improper, if the thing
were well managed, to give the right to vote, if the mode of
taking the vote was well managed.
Do you conceive, that the system of forty-shilling freeholds,
connected as it now is with the law, between landlord and tenant,
is such as to insure fair representation ? — It is impossible to say
that; it has its advantages and disadvantages; it gives to the
owners of great estates great influence, that I believe is a good
deal in the spirit of the modern practice in Parliamentary repre-
sentation ; it opens the door, however, for considerable frauds,
and though I am quite convinced of the frauds, I see great diffi-
culties in altering it. I should be glad, though it is a very crude
opinion, if the qualification were five pounds.
Do you conceive, that raising the qualification to five pounds,
would, when accompanied with the concession of what is gene-
rally called Catholic emancipation, give satisfaction in Ireland to
the Roman Catholics ? — Conceding Catholic emancipation, in the
spirit in which it ought to be conceded in order to be useful, it
ought to be, if given, given in a liberal spirit ; 1 think the inha-
bitants of Ireland would be so connected with the government,
and the present distinction so much abolished, that whether forty
shillings or five pounds, would be a question equally affecting
DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 205
Roman Catholics or Protestants, and that the Catholics would
be satisfied with any arrangement which the Protestants were
satisfied with.
«You do not conceive, that so connected, any dissatisfaction
would prevail on the part of the Roman Catholics ? — That is my
impression; I think if it were so connected, no dissatisfaction
would arise.
Do you conceive it would be practicable or safe to alter the
elective franchise, to raise the qualification without connecting it
with Roman Catholic emancipation ? — I think it would be totally
unsafe ; I think it would be a most dangerous attempt in legislation
to increase the qualification, and thereby disqualify a great many
Roman Catholics, without giving them emancipation.
The answer you have made, is taking the qualification of five
pounds instead of forty shillings ; would you conceive, that the
same answer would apply, if the qualification was raised still
higher than five pounds ? — No ; my opinion upon that subject,
as I said before, is not a very decided one; I would see the
advantage of some increase, but I should be afraid of going as
high as 10/.
Are you of opinion, that such an alteration of the qualification
would, in effect, dimmish the body and influence of the Roman
Catholics ? — I do not think raising it to 51. or 10/. or %QL would
diminish the Roman Catholic influence. The occupiers of the
soil are almost all, or so many of them, Roman Catholics, that
10£. or even 20/. would not make an essential difference in that
respect, and might have a contrary effect; for the forty-shilling
freeholders are more the property of the Protestant proprietors,
and it might weaken what might be called the Protestant interest,
to increase the qualification.
Do you make a distinction between the alteration of the fran-
chise in counties and cities ? — I do not, in that answer. As far
as I know of cities, the forty-shilling freeholder is that which
ought to be allowed to subsist ; I think in cities it ought not to
be increased.
Where there is concurrent right in freemen and freeholders,
the effect of the alteration of the elective franchise of the free-
holder would be, to throw a kind of superiority in the hands of
the freeman ? — Undoubtedly ; my answer as to cities is in re-
lation of that ; I know of no city or town that, in itself, has the
right of representation in Ireland, in which the freemen do
not vote. Mallow is not an exception, for that is a manor, not
a mere town.
In the event of the qualification in cities being raised, would
not the effect be, to place the return in the hands of the corpo-
rations of those places ? — The effect of striking out the forty-
shilling freeholds in cities would be, to place the return in the
206 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
hands of the corporation of those places, completely and irre-
trievably.
Would not that be a measure that would give dissatisfaction,
and produce danger in those places ? — Great dissatisfaction to a
very valuable class of people, thriving commercial men.
Have you ever considered that it is desirable that the forty-
shilling freeholder or indeed any freeholder holding his freehold
by lease, should not vote, unless his rent had been paid ? — I
should think it certainly an advantage, but there are great diffi-
culties about carrying it into practice ; I think it would be a great
advantage, if practical.
Would it not have the effect of disfranchising, at any election
you have known, nine-tenths of the freeholders? — Yes, at any
election I have known hitherto, certainly it would disfranchise a
great many.
Would it not secure this object, that the freeholder would be
a person of more substance and property than at present ? — Yes,
if ne had bona fide paid his rent; but it would enable a direct
bribe to be given for his rent, or the candidate would qualify him
to vote, by having some friend to pay the rent.
Would it not raise the freeholder to a more independent si-
tuation?— It certainly would, and would be, I am convinced,
upon the whole, a decided benefit to the system ; the only dif-
culty is the mode of carrying it into effect.
Would it be more difficult to carry it into effect, than raising
the qualification ? — I believe not ; the question comes suddenly
upon me, but my opinion is, it would be the easier of the two, to
have the rent paid off.
Why do you think that qualification for voting in counties,
that is not attended with any inconvenience in England, should
be attended with inconvenience in Ireland? — In England, I
understand that the greater part of the forty-shilling tenures
are fee-simple tenures, where the persons who possess the votes
have absolute dominion, and are not therefore the property and
serfs of any other person ; in Ireland, it happened that they are
made freeholders for election purposes ; and it seems to my mind,
that they make the same distinctions as in corporations, regular
freemen and occasional freemen.
If, therefore, the state of society, with reference to rural
arrangements in Ireland, was to be more assimilated to that which
exists in England, the objection to forty-shilling freeholders in
Ireland would vanish ? — In my mind, it would be totally done
away ; in my humble judgment, it would not be at all right to
meddle with them ; I have not expressed any opinion favourable
to raising the franchise at all.
Do you think that that species of improvement in Ireland,
which there is fair reason to believe exists, has a tendency to
HICHARt) SHIELD, ESQ. EXAMINED. 807
place the social system in Ireland more upon a footing of simi-
larity to that of England in that respect, and therefore to correct
the evil of forty-shilling freeholders? — I am entirely of that
opinion ; I think the progressive improvement in Ireland is such,
as is calculated to do away a great deal of the inconvenience
of the present system, and to render it quite unnecessary,
if it ever were necessary, to make any alteration certainly un-
advisable.
Would it be likely that the great proprietors will parcel out
their estates in fee-simple freeholds, as long as the present system
of political influence exists in Ireland, through the means of
forty-shilling freeholders? — I do not expect that the proprietors
of Ireland will ever make donations of the fee, or sell it ; but
persons acquiring property, may purchase small estates ; a most
desirable thing, if we could see it in Ireland.
Jovis, 3° die Martii, 1825.
THE RIGHT HON. LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON,
IN THE CHA.IR.
Richard Shiell, Esquire, called in ; and Examined.
Do you know any thing with respect to the administration of jus*
tice on the circuits ; and if so, have the goodness to give a statement
of any thing, in consequence of which inconvenience has been sus-
tained ? — If I am asked with respect to what I have observed on
my own circuit, independently of what I know has taken place
in other parts of Ireland, especially in Dublin, I answer, that I
have observed upon my own circuit what I conceive to be at least
imperfections in the administration of justice, arising from two
sources ; the first I conceive to be religious ; and the second aristo-
cratic. I have observed that there is not that just regard for the
rights and interests of the lower orders, which I believe is enter-
tained in this country. In the county of Wexford, for instance,
it is an habitual observation among the Bar, that in cases between
landlord and tenant, there is, I will not say an undue partiality, but
there is a strong partiality existing in the minds of juries in favour
of the landlord. I know it is commonly said among the Bar on
my circuit, that in cases between landlord and tenant, the tenant
has but a slender chance, unless his case be almost irresistible.
I consider that the feeling by which juries are influenced, is in a
great measure aristocratic, but I think the aristocratic feeling is
208 RICHAftU SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
not unconnected with a religous one ; the Aristocracy of Ireland
are chiefly Protestant : I may say almost entirely so, because
they are to a great extent, masters of its fee-simple. I think
that what is called an esprit de corps connected with religion, is
thereby produced; Protestants are thus allied together, and
where the rights of a person of an inferior class come into collision
with those of a person belonging to the higher order, the religious
feeling mixes itself with the aristocratic sentiment. The obser-
vations which I have just made, are applicable to the county of
Wexford ; I cannot say that I can illustrate the justice of those
observations by any cases which have fallen within my own know-
ledge, but I know that the partiality for the landlord among the
jury, is matter of familiar observation at the Bar.
In speaking of juries, you refer to the record juries? — Yes,
I do.
Of what description of the community are the juries generally
composed ? — In the county of Wexford, there are very few
Roman Catholics who are possessed of considerable property;
and I believe that the majority of the jurors who try civil cases
in the county of Wexford, are Protestants.
The question referred to the class of the community ; as to
property, from which they were taken ? — I believe in that county
of which I particularly speak, jurors are generally selected from
a class of very highly respectable yeomanry, persons possessing
four, five, or six hundred a year.
Are they tenants or landlords ? — I believe they are generally
what are called middle men
You speak of the petit juries ? — Yes, of the record juries. I
shall mention the instances which have occurred on my circuit,
that appear to me to shew that there is something vicious in the
administration of justice, arising in a great degree from the nature
of the law itself; I begin with the case of Lawrence against
Dempster, in which I happened to be counsel. The Insurrection
Act was proclaimed in the town of Nenagh, in the county of
Tipperary ; Mr. Dempster is a magistrate for that county ; he
had a quarrel about an hour after sunset, (and it was a question
whether the hour had elapsed, and that was left to the jury,)
with a Mr. Lawrence, respecting a subject wholly unconnected
with politics; very unwarrantable language was used by Mr. Law-
rence towards Mr. Dempster. It is right that I should mention,
that it was proved that at this time the wife of Mr. Dempster
was walking in the streets of Nenagh, accompanied by some of
her female friends, and many persons were at the time in the
street ; in consequence of gross personal language addressed to
Mr. Dempster as an individual, but quite unconnected with his
magisterial capacity, Mr, Dempster ordered Mr, Lawrence to be
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. #09
arrested under the Insurrection Act, inasmuch as he was out of
his abode an hour after sunset ; the latter was, under this order,
committed and detained in custody for, I believe, three days ; a
verdict for 75/. only was recovered, in an action brought by
Mr. Lawrence against Mr. Dempster. I conceive that unless
there had been persons upon the jury, and I was assured of the
fact, who were resolved to support the magistrates at all events,
and who acted upon the principle that magistrates, even when
grossly in error, or when acting corruptly, ought to be sustained,
the verdict would have been much more considerable. A point
was saved at the trial; the question was, whether the action
ought to have been trespass or case ? It was brought before the
court of. Common Pleas ; three of the Judges, Mr. Justice
Moore, Mr. Justice Torrens, and Mr. Justice Johnson, all con-
curred in saying, that the conduct of Mr. Dempster deserved the
strongest reprobation ; Lord Norbury was the only Judge who
stated, that in his opinion, his conduct did not deserve much
censure, and that at all events magistrates ought to be supported.
What I am now stating, is within my own personal knowledge.
The case was reported in the Dublin Evening Post. I think
that Mr. Dempster was guilty of a gross perversion of the power
intrusted to him, and I think that he ought to have been de-
prived of the commission of the peace ; he was not deprived of
the commission of the peace ; he remained after the facts I have
detailed, still intrusted with this important power ; and further,
the magistrates of the county of Tipperary came to a resolution,
that he was an active and useful magistrate, to prevent his being
deprived of the commission of the peace. 1 think that the office
of magistrate is connected with the administration of justice, and
that to permit a man, who had abused the Insurrection Act in
such a way, to continue in the exercise of magisterial functions,
was highly censurable, and affords evidence that due means are
not adopted to improve the administration of the law.
Do you recollect the language which was used by Mr. Lawrence
to Mr. Dempster upon that occasion ? — I do not recollect the
exact words that were used, but I recollect that it was impos-
sible that grosser language could be employed ; I can recollect
some of the words, which I should almost blush to mention.
Mr. Dempster's family were in the street at the time ? — His
wife was in the street, but not within hearing.
Was that proved ? — At all events it was not proved that she
was within hearing.
Do you know the persons that were on the jury ? — I do not
know the names of the persons that were on the jury, but I was
told by the attorney who employed me in the action, and who
was extremely well acquainted with the county, (Mr. Lanagau,
£10 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
a very clever and intelligent gentleman) that some of the jui
acted upon the principle of giving as little damages as possi-
ble against any magistrate.
Did he state to you the ground of his opinion ? — He did not
state that : 1 did not ask him the question, because I conceived,
that from his familiar acquaintance with the habits and feelings
of the country, he must have been acquainted with the fact.
Do you know of what religious persuasion Mr. Dempster is ? —
He is a Presbyterian ; he is a Scotch Presbyterian ; he was the
surgeon of a regiment quartered in that part of the country, and
settled there ; I believe him independent of that fact, to be a
respectable man, though I think he displayed too much alacrity
in what he considered the discharge of his official duties.
On that occasion, or others ? — I speak from public report ; I
think it my duty to mention, that complaints against Mr. Demp-
ster came from persons very much disposed to find fault with
magistrates ; I know he was extremely unpopular in Nenagh.
Do you know from what parts of the county the persons com-
posing the jury, were drawn ? — I do not.
Do you know whether they were Protestants or Catholics, or
both ? — I believe both.
Is it not the custom in the county of Tipperary to put Pro-
testants and Catholics indiscriminately on juries ? — I believe in
civil cases it is the practice to put Protestants and Catholics in-
discriminately on juries; but I am sure that in cases which are
either political or conceived to be so, or which have any connexion
with the disturbances of the county, Roman Catholics are stu-
diously excluded ; I should violate confidence if I stated my
authority, for the fact was communicated to me in confidence.
Was a panel returned which was intended solely for the trial
of this particular case ? — No, there was a general panel ; as well
as I recollect in that particular case, the jury were chosen by
ballot, which is the fairest mode ; the names were put into a hat,
and then drawn out.
How do you account for the former statement you made to the
Committee, that in cases where magistrates were engaged in a
trial, the Catholics were more particularly excluded than in other
cases ? — If I stated that, I stated what I did not intend to do,
and I conceive I must have been misapprehended.
Do you consider that in this case there was any special ex-
clusion of Roman Catholics from the jury? — I am sure there was
not ; but I beg to add there appeared to be individuals of strong
opinions, respecting the necessity of supporting the magistracy :
upon the jury it was a mere matter of accident, and I do not
mean to say, that in that instance any improper measures were
taken by the sheriff or any other persons, for the purpose of pro-
KICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 211
curing a corrupt jury ; but the state of the law is such, that
men's passions are marshalled "against each other, and that there-
by it almost inevitably happens, that in political cases, men will
be swayed by undue motives ; I conceive the remedy for that
will be to abolish those distinctions which have generated this
result ; the vice is in the law itself.
Do you conceive that the influence only operates on one side ?
— No cases have come within my own knowledge, from which I
should conclude that Roman Catholics were swayed by their
political passions ; but I think it extremely likely that they
would be so. This, if the case, is also the fault of the law.
Do you know the proportion of Roman Catholics and Protes-
tants, who were on this particular jury ? — I do not ; but a single
juror, it is quite obvious, exercises an absolute dominion over a
jury, in the reduction of damages.
Did the jury retire from the box ; and if so, for what time
were they out ? — They were out for about four hours ; the Judge
did not remain to receive the verdict by the consent of the par-
ties, in consequence of the lateness of the hour, and it being un-
derstood that they would not be very likely to agree, it was con-
sented that the registrar should receive the verdict.
Were you present in the court of Common Pleas, when this
case came on? — I was; I argued the case in the court of Common
Pleas.
Of what class of society, chiefly, was this jury composed ?—
They were persons of the better class ; they did not belong to
the aristocracy of the county, not that class from which the grand
jurors are generally selected ; but they were respectable indivi-
duals, gentlemen; some of them, probably, of a thousand or
> fifteen hundred a-year, and others possessed of four or five hun-
*dred a-year.
Were they of that class of persons, out of whom magistrates
are selected ? — I believe some of them were magistrates ; I think
Mr. Pennefeather was one of the jury, who was a magistrate.
Can you state what the circumstances of Mr. Dempster were,
whether he was a person in needy circumstances ? — He was a
surgeon attached to a regiment ; he is a Scotchman.
Was not the verdict of 75/. damages, proportioned to his cir-
cumstances ? — I do not think it was, because he married a lady
who has seven hundred a-year.
Did you advise moving for a new trial, on account of the in-
adequacy of the damages ? — I did not ; because there is no in-
stance in which a plaintiff can set aside a verdict in his favour, no
matter how small the damages may be.
What was Mr. Lawrence ? — Mr. Lawrence had been in the
army.
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Was he a Catholic or a Protestant ? — He is a Protestant,
am quite satisfied that Mr. Dempster was actuated by no religious
feeling towards him, nor would he have been actuated by any
such feeling towards him, if he had been a Roman Catholic.
Mr. Dempster is not affected by the passions which prevail
throughout Ireland ; he is a Scotch gentleman, Mr. Lawrence is
Irish ; and I recollect this circumstance, that a friend of Law-
rence's said, and this is, I think, remarkable, " Upon what prin-
ciple could you possibly arrest Mr. Lawrence ? for Mr. Lawrence
is notoriously a loyal man." The person I allude to was a
Mr. Rowan Cashell, a relation of Mr. Lawrence; he proved
that he said to Mr. Dempster, Why should you arrest Lawrence,
when he and all his family are loyal men ? and he added, that
he meant by that, that they were strong Protestants.
When this committal took place, was the county under the
Insurrection Act ? — Not the whole county ; that part of the
county was.
Do you not think, that a disposition to support the magistrates
might arise in any disturbed county, without the influence of
any religious feeling whatever ? — I certainly think so.
And that that disposition to support the magistrates might
fairly be attributed to apprehension, that the disturbances which
prevailed might arise under the circumstances of any country
whatever ? — I certainly do think so ; but I think it right to add,
that I conceive that disposition is not at all unconnected- with the
spirit of domination produced by the sense of superiority arising
from religion.
Mr. Dempster was a Scotchman ? — He was.
How long had he resided in Ireland ? — I think about four or
five years ; I know the gentleman personally.
Do you think he got so infected with this spirit of domination
during four years residence, as to commit Mr. Lawrence to prison
under the influence of those feelings which arise from the spirit
of domination ? — I do not think so ; and I did not state that I
conceived that he was influenced by that sentiment. But the
Jury, I conceive, were influenced, in their adjudication of da-
mages, by that sentiment.
Do you not think it possible that Mr. Dempster, under the in-
fluence of irritated feelings, if he had been a magistrate acting in
Scotland, might have committed this abuse of magisterial autho-
rity ? — I think it possible ; but I think it not likely, that in a
well ordered community he would have been guilty of a violation
of the law, which would have excited the reprobation of every
person in his own class of society.
Did he ever afterwards express any regret at having been
misled by passion to abuse the authority he had as a magistrate ?
RICHARD SHIELL, ESd. EXAMINED. 213
— He did not ; on the contrary, I rather collected that he ex-
pressed no dissatisfaction at it.
Mr. Lawrence was what you call a loyal man, and all his im-
mediate relations were strong Protestants? — I stated that a rela-
tion of Mr. Lawrence's stated upon the table, when he was ex-
amined as a witness, that Mr. Lawrence was a loyal man ; and
he defined his loyalty to be strong Protestantism ; I think it right
to add, that I am not perfectly sure about the last,
Do you think there were loyal men, and strong Protestants, on
the jury ? — I am sure there were very strong Protestants, and
therefore very loyal men, according to a certain, but very im-
proper and offensive definition of the word.
How do you account for it, that those feelings of loyalty and
of strong Protestantism, did not operate with the jury to induce
them to take part with Mr. Lawrence, he being a loyal man and
a Protestant ? — I think that the anxiety to support the magistrate,
superseded every other consideration.
Then, has not the anxiety to support the magistrate in a dis-
turbed district, overpowered that community of feeling which
existed between a jury and a suffering Protestant ? — I do not
think that the fact of Mr. Lawrence being a strong Protestant
had any effect upon the jury, because no political feeling was the
origin of the contest between them ; the jury were perfectly im-
partial, as far as religion was immediately concerned, between
the parties, as they were both Protestants. The ground on
which I rest my opinion that this case illustrates the imperfect
administration of justice, is the simple fact, that Mr. Dempster
was allowed to continue in the exercise of magisterial functions.
In this case, there was no opportunity of challenging the jury,
it being a civil case; was there? — There were no challenges;
there would have been grounds of challenge if the parties had
been related, and other grounds unnecessary to be mentioned.
There was no ground of peremptory challenge, without cause
assigned ? — No.
Could there have been a verdict in favour of Mr. Lawrence,
if Mr. Dempster could have proved, by the Dublin Gazette, that
he was authorised, in point of strict law, to exercise this power
under the Insurrection Act? — That would have been a mere
matter of pleading ; if the Gazette had been produced, the ob-
jection that the action ought to have been an action on the case,
and not an action of trespass (which it was) would, I think have
been good ; but even if the Gazette had been produced, and the
action had been on the case, and not trespass, damages ought to
have been recovered.
Might not the jury have taken that omission into their con*
RICHARD SHIELL, ESft, EXAMINED.
sideration, when they awarded the damages; might they not
have argued, here would have been no damages, provided
Mr. Dempster could have produced the Dublin Gazette ? — I am
sure the jury did not take that into their account, for the Judge
drew their attention to the points they were to consider, and that
was not included.
This case was tried by the Chief Justice ? — It was.
Did you ever hear that there was a communication between
the government of Ireland and the Chief Justice, as to the pro-
priety of removing Mr. Dempster from the commission of the
peace ? — I read in one of the papers, that Mr. Peei made that
observation in the House of Commons, but I had never heard it
before ; I conceived that Mr. Peel might have referred to Lord
Norbury, the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, who expressed
an opinion favourable to Mr. Dempster.
Supposing a communication was actually made by the Irish
government to Lord Chief Justice Bushe, of the court of King's
Bench, with respect to the propriety of removing Mr. Dempster
from the commission of the peace, and that the Chief Justice
having tried the case, gave it as his opinion that there was not
sufficient ground for the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to exercise
his authority, and to remove Mr. Dempster ; in that case, would
not you think the Lord Chancellor was justified in abstaining
from the exercise of such a power ? — I must, in candour say, not-
withstanding the high respect I entertain, and something stronger
than respect, towards the Chief Justice of the King^s Bench,
who is a very distinguished person, that I should not con-
ceive that even his authority ought to supersede the effect
which the powerful facts ought to have produced upon the mind
of the Lord Chancellor.
As a general principle, do you not think that it would be un-
safe in the Lord Chancellor to exercise his authority in contra-
diction to the opinion of the judge who had had the whole merits
of the case disclosed to him in evidence ? — I do not, where the
facts are clearly established, independently of the authority of the
judges. The Judge takes notes of the case ; he states the facts
in those notes ; if he submits his notes, and thereby submits the
facts to the consideration of Chancellor, I think the Lord Chan-
cellor is just as competent to judge as he is; and I do not think
that any Judge who superintends the trial of a case, is at all more
competent to form a decision respecting the propriety of removing
a magistrate, than any other person.
Do you think a judge, who reads the minutes of evidence in a
case, is quite as competent to form an opinion of the precise
merits of that case as the judge who tries it, supposing of course
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
each to be equally gifted, and each equally impartial ? — I think,
upon a given state of facts, the judge who tries the case, and
any other judge, are equally competent to decide ; and I think it
very possible also, that a judge even of the very highest faculties
and the purest judicial integrity, may have particular views re-
specting the propriety of sustaining magistrates, in entertain-
ing which, he may labour under a very great and pernicious
mistake.
Can you undertake to say, from your recollection of the words
used by Mr. Dempster, and the general tenor of that language,
that the attack by Mr. Lawrence on Mr. Dempster was purely
personal, and had no reference whatever either to politics or to the
existing disturbances in the country, or to any thing at all con-
nected with Mr. Dempster's magisterial capacity ? — -I am perfectly
certain of it, because the dispute arose from a servant of the
brother, I think, of Mr. Lawrence, refusing to let a horse be-
longing to Mr. Dempster, into a field attached to a barrack.
That was the origin of the whole dispute.
Have the goodness to state whether it is the practice in Ireland,
to enforce the Insurrection Act upon respectable persons? — It
certainly is not ; and the only instance in which I recollect, that a
person belonging to the class of gentlemen was arrested under the
Insurrection Act, was another instance in which that very Mr.
Dempster was the committing magistrate; it was the case of
Mr. Gleeson, a repectable professional man, an attorney, who
was committed by the orders of Mr. Dempster, for being out of
his house at night, in the town of Nenagh.
In point of fact, the same communication and intercourse
subsists between parties not suspected of violating the law in a
district proclaimed under the Insurrection Act, as before? — I
think the same sort of intercourse subsists between persons of the
better class.
Was that case of Gleeson ever made the subject of a trial? — -It
never was made the subject of trial; an action was brought, but
the statute that requires the service of notice upon a magistrate,
was not complied with ; that was the reason, and none other, why
the action was not brought to trial ; I myself had a brief in the
action, and on that account I am acquainted with the facts.
Can you state the date of that occurrence ? — I cannot exactly
state it.
Had a year intervened ?— I think it was in the year 1823.
Can you state what circumstances of life Mr. Lawrence was
in ? — Mr. Lawrence is a person of very respectable family, I
believe; however, that his circumstances are now, and were then,
extremely impoverished, I believe that his respectability, which
perhaps will appear singular in Ireland, has sustained some dimi-
216 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ., EXAMINED.
nution in consequence of his being considered addicted to quar-
relling, and his having been reputed a duellist.
Is he considered in society, on a footing with Mr. Dempster ? —
I believe he would be considered in society on a footing with
Mr. Dempster.
You do not impute to the jury that they were influenced by
religious feelings ? — I am sure that they were not influenced by
religious feelings ; they were influenced by what I conceive to be
an undue anxiety to support magistrates through (to use a vulgar
phrase) thick and thin.
By what you call an aristocratic sentiment ? — Yes ; by that
which, when it comes into its operation, with reference to the
lower orders, is tainted with religious feeling ; perhaps without
the persons swayed by it being perfectly conscious of the origin
of the motive by which they are governed .
You state that in point of circumstances, Mr. Dempster and
Mr. Lawrence were very much on a footing ? — Yes ; when I say
that, I think that the spirit of aristocratic domination is connected
with religious domination; I do not apply the observation so
much to this particular case, as to the general effect of the system
of religious distinction on the whole class of the people.
In this particular case, you neither impute a religious feeling,
nor an aristocratic sentiment, to the jury? — I think that the dis-
position to support magistrates improperly, arises from an aristo-
cratic sentiment ; from a desire to keep down and trample upon
the lower orders.
Do not you think the jury might have naturally taken into
consideration the very great provocation Mr. Dempster had
received, that might have deprived him for a moment of the
exercise of his sound intellect ? — I not only know that they did,
but that they ought, and that the Chief Justice directed them
to do so ; but I think that 75£. was not by any means a proper
reparation for an imprisonment of three days, and where the
Insurrection Act was converted into an instrument of personal
vengeance.
Had Mr. Dempster any property separate from his wife^s ?—
I am not aware.
How long had Mr. Dempster been in the commission of the
peace ? — I do not know.
Is this the only instance in which you call into question the
conduct of Mr. Dempster as a magistrate ? — I have just men-
tioned the case of Mr. Gleeson, who was arrested by Mr. Demp-
ster for being out of his house in the town, an hour after sunset.
Mr. Gleeson is an attorney in considerable practice ; is he not ?
• — No, he is not in considerable practice.
What amount of damages should you yourself have thought
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
sufficient, in the case of Mr. Lawrence ? — I should have thought
that, under the circumstances, 300/. would have been a proper
verdict.
What were the damages laid at? — The damages were laid, I
believe, at 2000^., but that is no test; it is a matter of caprice
with the professional man who draws the declaration. I think it
right in fairness to add, that though I mentioned that Mr. Demp-
ster had married a lady with 700/. a year, I believe the estate o
that lady is encumbered, though that fact was not brought to the
attention of the jury ; that circumstance I know from my own
personal knowledge.
Have you not expressed an opinion, that public men in Ireland
are influenced by undue partialities in administering justice and
favour towards Roman Catholics? — I do not think that I said
public men ; I will say this, that I believe the judges of the land
are free from any impure motives connected with religion ; but I
am convinced that sheriffs, who must be Protestants ; that magis-
trates, a majority of whom are Protestants, and who are strongly
swayed by political feelings ; that jurors, who are selected by Pro-
testant sheriffs, and especially the jurors of the city of Dublin, are
governed by impure motives ; and if it be not out of order to men-
tion it, I have the authority of Mr. Edmund Burke for saying, that
it is impossible that the law should be administered purely, while the
law remains what it is, and continues to be administered by Pro-
testant sheriffs, magistrates and jurors. He says so in his letter,
written in the year 1782, to an Irish peer ; his words are, " The
Catholics are excluded from all that is beneficial, and exposed to
all that is mischievous, in a trial by jury. This was manifestly
within my own observation."
The question refers to the duties of chief secretary of Ireland,
for instance ? — I am sure that no person, who would hold so high
an office, could be swayed in a case of personal wrong, and where
merely the rights of two individuals concerned, unconnected with
religion, were by any improper motives ; but I certainly do think,
that public men in Ireland, and I think it is but human nature,
are swayed by an anxiety to support the members of that party,
by whom they are themselves supported.
Do you recollect making a statement of this nature, that when
Mr. Peel was chief secretary for Ireland, a claim was preferred to
him, on the part of a man in humble life, a fisherman in the county
of Waterford, who had been instrumental by the greatest activity
and courage, in saving the lives of several soldiers who were ship-
wrecked, that an application was made by Mr. M'Dougal, who
stated this case to Mr. Peel, and stated his knowledge of the truth
of the statement which he made, and applied for some mark of
favour from the government towards that meritorious individual j
218 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
that Mr. Peel's answer was, what class does this person belong to :
the reply was, he is a fisherman; that Mr. Peel then said, that is
not what I mean, is he a Protestant or a Roman Catholic ? that
the answer to that was, " he is a Roman Catholic ;" that Mr. Peel
then dismissed the case, saying, " if that is the case I decline in-
terfering ;" is that a correct statement of the outline of the case,
as stated by you ? — No, it is not.
Then have the goodness to state the circumstances, as stated by
you ? — I will. Mr. M'Dougal mentioned to me, that the person
of the name of Kirwin or Kirewan, had saved the lives of eleven
persons in the army, three of whom were officers, and that he, from
motives of pure humanity, and having no acquaintance with any
person in authority, went to the castle and applied for a remunera-
tion for this individual, and that he was asked at the castle ; (I am
now stating what Mr. M'Dougal mentioned to me ; I will after-
wards state how far I may have perhaps modified or coloured those
facts ;) he was asked, I say, at the castle, and with emphasis ; (but
he did not state that it was by Mr. Peel, I believe he stated that
it was by Sir Edward Littlehales.) whether the individual in ques-
tion was a Protestant. Mr. M'Dougal not only mentioned these
circumstances to me, but he also mentioned them to a very respect-
able merchant of the city of Dublin, Mr. Nicholas Mahon ; who,
when some controversy arose as to the truth, or the full extent of
the truth of my statement, corroborated the body of the facts which
I had publicly mentioned. I think it right to add, that Mr.
M'Dougal requested me not to mention these circumstances ; from
which obligation, I conceive, that his death has completely released
me ; as I supposed he was apprehensive, that a disclosure of this
conversation might prejudice him in his advancement in his profes-
sion ; whether he was right or not I do not know. I did not state
in public that Kirwin received no reward ; but perhaps I was
guilty of [some rhetorical artifice, in not adding, that he received
the reward of 301. which was the only reward that he did receive
for saving the lives of eleven persons. I certainly did insinuate,
that the question, whether Kirwin was a Protestant, had been put
by the authority of Mr. Peel ; and I did conceive, that the person
who had this conversation with Mr. M'Dougal, had been instructed
to ask that question ; perhaps I was not warranted in drawing the
inference, but I certainly did not state, that Mr. Peel gave no re-
muneration to the individual in question ; on the contrary, I know
that the individual in question received the small sum of 30/. and
received nothing more.
Did Mr. M'Dougal inform you, that the only communication
he ever had with Mr. Peel on that subject was in writing? — Mr.
M'Dougal did not state that to me ; allow me to add, that a few
clays before I left Dublin, the individual concerned in this act of
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 219
very signal humanity came to Dublin, in consequence of his
having seen that I had made mention of his name, and he asked me
to draw a memorial for him to the Lord Lieutenant, setting forth
the extent of his services ; which memorial I was prevented from
drawing by the necessity of coming over to this country. Kirwin
stated to me, that he himself and Mr. M'Dougal had an interview
with Mr. Peel ; how far he was right, I cannot state. I know the
propensity among the lower classes to put forth every thing in a
light the most favourable to themselves ; I am inclined to think he
must have been under some mistake, and that he saw some other
person whom he mistook for Mr. Peel ; Kirwin is thirty-six years
of age, and when he asked for some small place in the Revenue, he
stated that Mr. Peel observed, that he-was too old ; which I ap-
prehend Mr. Peel would not have stated, for he is a very strong
and healthy man ; I conceive therefore it is unlikely that he could
have had such an interview, for the person who told him his age
was an obstacle to his appointment, must have been mocking him.
Did Mr. M'Dougal tell you, that he wrote a letter to Mr. Peel,
in which he stated that this man was in the utmost pecuniary dis-
tress, and had been actually in prison some time for a debt of 61. ;
Mr. M'Dougal having himself released him from prison, and think-
ing it a great reflection upon the town in which he lived, that such
a man should have remained in prison ? — Mr. M'Dougal did not
mention this fact to me, but I do think that Mr. M'Dougal stated
to me he had written a letter to Mr. Peel.
Did Mr. M'Dougal tell you that Mr. Peel's answer to that letter
was to this effect ; that General Doyle, who commanded the dis-
trict, had been instructed to examine into all the claims that had
been preferred by persons who had been instrumental in saving
lives from that ship ; that he begged Mr. M'Dougal would see
General Doyle would lay the claims of this individual before him,
and that General Doyle would make a report to Mr. Peel upon the
subject ? — He did not ; but Kirwin subsequently told me that he
had a conversation with General Doyle, and that General Doyle
put it to his election, whether he would take SO/, or wait until he
should get some small place ; and that he preferred taking the 30/. :
and Kirwin said also, that it was mentioned to him, that his name
was taken down at the Castle in the list of promotion for some petty
office ; but that he had not been appointed, although some years
had elapsed, and he requested me to draw a memorial for him,
calling the attention of government to that fact.
Did Mr. M'Dougal conceal from you the important fact, that
the whole case had been referred to General Doyle, with instruc-
tions to inquire into the whole of it ? — Mr. M'Dougal did not men-
tion it ; it was at the bar mess at Kilkenny he mentioned the cir-
cumstances I have detailed. Mr. M'Dougal was a geqtleman of
220 RICHARD SHIELL, ESa. EXAMINED.
what I call liberal opinions ; he was favourable to Roman Catholic
emancipation ; we were observing in conversation, that the most
profitable course a Protestant could pursue in Ireland was to sup-
port the doctrines of Ascendancy : he did not mention the facts
for the purpose of public statement, but, on the contrary, laid me
under an injunction of secrecy, which I obeyed while he lived.
But he concealed the fact, that this case was referred, with others,
to the General commanding in the district ; that 30£. was presented
to the individual, that having been reported by the General to be
a remuneration for those services ? — Mr. M'Dougal laid no stress
upon any circumstance except upon the question having been asked,
whether Kirwin was a Protestant, and that it should have been
made an ingredient by men in power, in the consideration of the
extent of his remuneration. That was the gist of the conversation.
Are you aware of the fact now, that this case was referred to the
same individual to whom every other case had been referred, which
individual being a general officer of the district, was instructed to
report to the government what sum he thought was a just'remune-
ration to each individual respectively for the services they had per-
formed, and that the sum named by General Doyle as a proper
remuneration to Kirwin was 30/. , and that 3(M. was paid to him ?
— I am not aware that any such reference was made.
You are aware of it now, by the communication you have had
subsequently with Kirwin? — I am merely aware of this, that
General Doyle put it to his election whether he would take 30/.
or take the promise of promotion ; but I am not aware that there
was any reference made to General Doyle, I am merely aware of
the naked fact I have mentioned.
You are aware that the individual had an offer from the general
officer of the district, either that he should receive the sum of 301.
to be paid immediately, or if he preferred it, that his name
should be placed upon the list of candidates for small appoint-
ments in the revenue ? — I am ; and I beg to add, I conceive that
the question as to whether he was a Protestant, if ever put, was
put with a view to ascertain whether he should be placed in a
situation of respectability or weight, and that religion in Ireland
does decide the place which an individual is to hold in connexion
with the government, or in any of its inferior departments.
What was the employment of Kirwin? — I heard he was a
fisherman, but he himself told me, since my statement, that he was
a farmer, and he certainly appears to be a very decent man, he
reads and writes ; I should call him a very intelligent man.
Mr. M'Dougal informed you that he was a fisherman, did he
not ? — I think he did ; but I afterwards, in conversation with
himself, found he was a farmer ; he lives on the sea coast.
What place of weight and responsibility could an individual
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
who was a fisherman, and had remained in prison for a debt of
61. expect from the government ? — I think that weight and re-
sponsibility are relative terms, and that a person in an inferior
class may be trusted with employments that are of consequence
and require fidelity and good conduct, the salary of which at all
events is of moment ; I think that a salary of GO/, a-year given to
this humble man, if employed in some small office, would have
been a matter of great importance to him ; and I think that the
question whether he was a Protestant, if at all put, (which I be-
lieve, although I do not positively state it, I had it merely on the
authority of Mr. M'Dougal,) was put with a view to determine
whether he should be employed, and in what way.
How do you reconcile that answer with Kir win's own state-
ment, that the offer of a place was made to him if he preferred
waiting for a place rather than receiving a sum of money at once ?
— I think the nature and importance of the place was to be de-
termined by the religion ; if he had been a Protestant he would
probably have been employed in a situation of that class to which
Protestants are usually promoted.
Do you know the places to which Kirwin would have been
eligible ? — There are many situations in the police, many situa-
tions in the revenue ; for instance, the place of water-guard; and
other places which he might have held.
Supposing the place of water-guard should have been esta-
blished since the claim of Kirwin was presented to the govern-
ment, you would not in that case draw any inference from his not
being appointed to that ? — I mention the place of water-guard
merely as illustrative of the sort of place he might have held ; of
course analogous places must have existed before that of water-
guard was established.
Do you know that in many instances places in the revenue are
places of promotion, and that it is absolutely necessary to belong
to a subordinate class before a man can be promoted to a higher ?
— I am aware of that ; but I think the most inferior situation in
the revenue would have been an object to this poor man.
Mr. M'Dougal did not state to you, that Mr. Peel was the
person who put the question as to his being a Protestant or a
Roman Catholic? — Mr. M'Dougal did not state to me, that Mr.
Peel was the person who put that question ; he stated, that it was
put by a person attached to the Castle, but I conceived it was
suggested by Mr. Peel. I think I have a right to add, I am not
disposed to think so now.
As at present informed, do not you think, that if General
Doyle suggested that 301. was a fit remuneration to be made to
Kirvvin, and if 30/, was paid to him, that no impression unfavour-
I
UTCHABD SHTELT,, ESQ. EXAMINED.
able to the government, in respect to its partiality, ought to arise
upon that case ? — I conceive, that if the sum of 301. only was paid
to a person who had saved the lives of eleven men in the em-
ployment of government, such a sum was an inadequate remu-
neration.
Supposing the general officer, who was requested to inquire
into that and other circumstances, reported 301. to be a fit sum,
regard being had to the class of life of Kirwin, do not you think,
that then a person in the situation of chief secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant, and who could not, of course, make personal inquiry,
would be justified in acting upon the opinion and report of the
individual who had been directed to inquire ? — I think that the
secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, having learned that the lives of
eleven persons in his Majesty's service had been saved by the ex-
ertions of an humble man, ought to have been greatly struck by
an action so heroic and so useful, and should not have made the
report of a general officer, the medium by which his own estimate
of the moral merit of such an action ought to have been deter-
mined.
You do not suppose that General Doyle lessened the reward to
Kirwin, because he was a Roman Catholic ? — I am sure he did
not : but I cannot answer for the moral scale by which General
Doyle estimated the value of Kirwin's conduct.
You think that 301. was an inadequate reward for the service
performed? — I certainly do. Three officers were saved, and
eight soldiers ; and that at a moment, when, I am sorry to say,
others were committing acts of the greatest barbarity.
Who were the persons employed to report on the facts ; were
they not the general officers of the district ? — I presume that to
be the case.
Was it likely that General Doyle, an officer himself, would
undervalue the services of a man who had been instrumental in
saving the lives of soldiers ? — I will not undertake to dispute on
the point of moral taste. I cannot pronounce upon the ethics or
military sensibilities of General Doyle.
In the statement you have made, you stated, that the person at
the Castle with whom M'Dougal communicated, retired to an-
other room, and upon his returning, asked whether Kirwin was a
Protestant or a Catholic ? — I did ; and I think it now right to
mention, that in that particular, there was perhaps a rhetorical
colouring in the specification of so minute a circumstance, which
was not perhaps perfectly warranted : I cannot now positively say
that Mr. M'Dougal did not state to me, that it was upon the
return of the inferior officer at the Castle that the question was
put ; but speaking as a conscientious man ought to do upon so
irise
RTCttARD SHIELt, ESQ. EXAMINED.
important an occasion as the present, I think it right to maintain,
that I do not distinctly recollect that he did state it : upon the
other hand, I will not negative that statement.
The inference which was natural to be drawn from that state-
ment to you was, that the person so retiring had, in the interval,
a communication from Mr. Peel ; and that, in consequence of that
communication, the question with respect to religion, was after-
wards put ? — Unquestionably it was my object to convey by in-
sinuation, what I did not think judicious directly to affirm ; but
I think it right to add, that my own firm conviction is, that re-
ligion is, more or less, made the test in the allocation of even the
most minor office in Ireland.
Your intention was to convey an impression, that that question
with respect to religion was put by the directions of Mr. Peel,
either at that moment given, or previously communicated ? — My
object at that time was to intimate to the public, that the sug-
gestion had been made by Mr. Peel ; my impression then was,
that the question was put by his direction ; I now think, from
the manner of Mr. Peel's examination, that Mr. Peel did not in
that specific instance direct the question to be put, but that it
was asked by an inferior officer, from his knowledge of the habits
and the mind of the then Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, under
whom he acted, and from the principles on which promotion is
carried on.
You have no distinct reason for making that assertion; you
had no ground except your own surmise for stating that that
question had originated with Mr. Peel? — I did not state that
question had originated with Mr. Peel ; I merely left it to be
inferred.
Had you, at the time you left it so to be inferred, any distinct
ground whatever upon which you could rest such an assertion ?
— I have this fact ; that a person in the employment of Mr. Peel,
who must have been acquainted with his habits of thinking and
his feelings, had asked the question, and I think I was not unfair
in attributing that question to a higher source.
Are you quite sure that Sir Edward Littlehales was the person
who put that question to Mr. M'Dougal ? — I am not sure of it ;
Sir Edward's name was mentioned to me in the course of the con-
versation, but whether in reference to this particular part of the
case, I cannot take upon myself to say; I believe it was his name
that was mentioned, but I cannot positively affirm it.
Bo you think it fair to infer, merely that a particular question
originated with an individual whom you name, when all you know
is, that it was put by another person, between which person and
the individual named, you think there is a general accordance in
political sentiments ?-^~I do think it quite fair ; I think it very
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
natural that the " winking of authority1' should be attended to
any persons holding inferior capacities.
In this case you imply a particular fact, although you admit
that you have no reason whatever to believe that fact actually to
have taken place? — I found a specific fact; I found that the
question was asked by a person in the employment or in depen-
dancy on Mr. Peel.
How do you know that fact ? — I was told by Mr. M^Dougal,
that the question was asked by a person at the Castle, who was
the individual through whom the communication was made to
Mr. Peel ; he told me that the question was asked of him just
before he had the interview with Mr. Peel.
And by Sir Edward Littlehales ? — I do not state that posi-
tively ; I endeavour to distinguish between my perfect recollection
and my more obscure belief.
Did Mr. M'Dougal state what passed between himself and
Mr. Peel? — He did not; the conversation between Mr. M'Dou-
gal and me did not at that time produce any deep impression
upon me ; it was casual ; it was stated merely in common convivial
intercourse, without any object whatever upon the part of Mr.
M'Dougal. I afterwards happened to recollect it, and I found
that it illustrated the general principle upon which the govern-
ment had acted ; when I find all the inferior offices almost uni-
versally filled with Protestants ; when I find the police filled by
Protestants, I cannot help thinking that it is the principle by
which government are swayed.
You stated, that what you meant to state was as a charge
against Mr. Peel ; that the application for reward being made to
him in favour of an individual, he wished to ascertain the religious
creed of that individual, before he decided on the amount and
nature of that reward ; that was the charge which you meant to
bring against Mr. Peel, and which you distinctly stated. It now
appears that you had no grounds upon which you could have
been warranted in asserting that the question, admitting it to
have been put by any body, did arise directly or indirectly from
Mr. Peel? — I did not distinctly state that the question was put at
the instance of Mr. Peel. I now state that, in my opinion, a ge-
neral system exists in Ireland, which would have prompted the
question ; and that I should conceive that Mr. Peel, acting only
in consistency with the principles which he had ever avowed,
would not only naturally, but perhaps justifiably, have asked the
question.
You infer then, from the question which was put by an infe-
rior officer about the Castle, that the answer to that question
would be considered as a matter of some importance by the supe-
rior officers of government? — I do; I think that the persons at
HTCHAUD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
the head of the government would not have been swayed by any
religious consideration, in determining what sum of money ought
to be given to Kir win. I think his religion would have been
entirely left out of the mere pecuniary question ; but I think the
government would have been swayed by the consideration of his
religion in determining to what place he should be advanced; and
that is the reason why I think the question was put.
Were you rightly understood, that this communication from
Mr. M'Dougal to you was not a formal communication for the
purpose of placing you in possession of those facts, but a casual
observation at a dinner table, with perhaps other persons pre-
sent?— It was a casual conversation; there were other persons
present, but it was told to me in a whisper; Mr. M'Dougal
mentioned to me, that when the question was put to him whether
Kirwin was a Protestant, he answered, that Kirwin did not ask
whether the eleven persons whom he saved were Protestants at
the time he was plunging into the sea.
It was not then a formal communication made by Mr.
M 'Dougal, for the purpose of your instituting any public pro-
ceedings upon it ? — Certainly not ; it was merely accidental.
Are you at all aware how many persons were engaged in saving
the lives of the soldiers at that shipwreck ? — I believe that no
individual whatever exerted himself to save the lives of the sol-
diers on board the two transports that were wrecked, except this
individual ; I believe the crowd on the sea-coast assembled toge-
ther for the purpose of plundering the wrecks, a practice not
confined to Ireland, but which prevails as extensively on the
coast of Cornwall ; so far was their barbarity carried, that they
actually cut off the fingers of the dead bodies of some women for;
the purpose of obtaining rings.
But you understood there was no other individual actually
employed in saving the lives of those soldiers? — I believe no
other.
From whom do you get your information ; have you examined
into it yourself? — I recollect the statement made in the public
newspaper at the time ; I recollect the statement made by Mr*
M'Dougal ; and I have also the statement of Kirwin himself.
How great a length of time elapsed between this conversation
which you had with Mr. M 'Dougal and the public statement
which you made, to which your examination has been directed ? —
I cannot state with much distinctness; I think about three or
four years.
Had you made inquiry into the facts in the interval at all ? — I
made none ; I knew that those transports had been wrecked ; I
knew that this Kirwin had distinguished himself by his humanity,
a
226 RICHARD SH1ELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
and I believed Mr. M'Dougars statement to me (he was a highly
respectable gentleman) to be fact.
It was then from your recollection of this casual conversation
with Mr. M'Dougal at this table, and without any particular
inquiries as to the conduct of Kirwin in the mean time, that you
made the public statement to which reference has been made ? —
It was; and in making that statement, I selected the fact with no
other view than that of putting the general principle in a more
conspicuous light.
Have you heard that any other persons were rewarded for
having shared in the merits of that transaction to which you
refer ?— No.
Did Kirwin go out in a boat ?-- No ; he is a very expert swim-
mer, he swam repeatedly from the shore to the wrecks, and saved
the lives of .eleven men.
Bid he state that he was dissatisfied with the reward at the
time ? — No ; he appeared on the contrary to be grateful for the
little which had been done for him.
Has not the 201. he then received been the chief source of his
prosperity since? — I hardly think, that even in so wretched a
country as Ireland, SO/, would be considered as having made a
man's fortune.
If he had remained in gaol from inability to pay 61. do not you
think that 30/. makes a great difference to a man in that situation
of life ? — It makes a difference ; but I think government should
have taken into their consideration the extent of the service he had
performed, and the nobleness of the action, as well as the poverty
of his circumstances.
Why do you think government ought to have acted upon the
representation of Mr. M'Dougal alone, in preference to that of
General Doyle ? — I am not disposed to say so ; for it would be
very unreasonable, that the government should have preferred the
mere dictum of Mr. M'Dougal, to the authorized statement of
General Doyle.
Did Mr. M'Dougal say, that he had advised a larger sum to
be given to this man ? — He did not tell me that he had given any
advice at all.
He did not tell you, that he had received any reward ? — He
told me he had received some reward.
Did you mention that in your speech ? — I did not ; and I have
before mentioned that ; I perhaps deserve some sort of blame for
not having added the fact ; but I consider, that if I had men-
tioned, that a man who had saved the lives of eleven persons,
among whom there were three officers, had received so miserable
a sum as 30£. as a reward, I should not have stated any thing
redounding to the credit of government,
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Bo not you think that the officers themselves ought to have
given him something ? — I do ; Kirwin said the officers did not
give him a single penny.
Do you know, that in Ireland, country servants are engaged for
five and six pounds a year ? — Yes ; but this man is above the
condition of a servant ; he told me, he farms lands at present, for
which he pays 100/. a year ; whether his doing so, arises from his
having received 30£. I must leave to the Committee to determine.
You say, that you merely stated this case, as an instance of the
injustice which you knew to prevail in the government, that of
excluding the Roman Catholics from situations to which they
were otherwise eligible? — I stated that my object in mentioning
that circumstance, was to put in a more conspicuous and striking
point of view, the principle upon which, I was convinced, that
government acted.
Upon what facts does your conviction of the mode in which
government act, rest? — A great majority of the people of Ireland
are Roman Catholics ; the police which is selected from the lower
orders, are almost entirely Protestants. This remark is equally
applicable to other pursuits and professions. I shall take my
own profession as a strong example. Since the year 1793, there
have been about one hundred and twenty Roman Catholics
admitted to the bar ; some time ago I went to the hanaper office,
to ascertain for the present Attorney-General for Ireland, the
number of Roman Catholics who had been admitted to the bar
since 1793 ; I found there had been one hundred and five Roman
Catholics and about eight hundred Protestants admitted up to
the same period ; not a single Roman Catholic barrister had been
promoted, with the exception of Mr. Farrell, (who has been
recently appointed, I believe through the personal regard of
Lord Wellesley) to any place to which Roman Catholics are
admissible by law. The exclusion of so large a body from all
employment, led me to the conclusion, that the profession of the
Roman Catholic religion was an obstacle to professional promo-
tion. It is right that I should herk observe, that Mr. Blake, a
Roman Catholic, has been appointed Remembrancer of the court
of Exchequer. For that gentleman, Lord Wellesley is known
to entertain a strong friendship, which may account for his selec-
tion in despite of his religion. He was not a member of the
Irish bar, nor is his office, I believe, necessarily connected with
the bar. Its duties were formerly filled by Mr. Thompson, an
attorney. It is right that I should observe, that my remarks, as to
the exclusion of Roman Catholics, were not intended to apply to
Lord Wellesley' s administration. Let me be permitted to men-
tion, as an exemplification of this sectarian principle of selection,
a fact in an individual case. Mr. Bellew, who is connected with
Q 2
228 EICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Lord Fingal, and who is a gentleman of a most respectable Ca-
tholic family, told me, that Lord Castlereagh had, about the
time of the Union, promised him the situation of assistant bar-
rister, and when a vacancy occurred, he applied to the govern-
ment to fulfil the promise : he was then informed, that there were
reasons which precluded the possibility of appointing him ; but
that to reward him for the disappointment, he should receive a
pension of 400/. a year, being the salary of assistant barrister ; he
added, that he had no doubt upon his mind, that government de-
clined to appoint him on account of his religion.
Is he alive now ? — He is.
Did Mr. Bellew mention in what year it was that this took
place ? — No, he did not. I believe it was Lord Redesdale who
prevented his appointment, inasmuch as Lord Redesdale was of
opinion that no Roman Catholic should have a situation in the
administration of justice, at all connected with judicial power.
Did he get the pension ? — He did, and it was afterwards in-
creased ; thus the individual was rewarded, but the class to which
he belonged was stigmatized. The government have a great
patronage connected with the Irish bar ; there are nearly as many
places as there are barristers ; and I think when I find that no
Roman Catholic has been appointed since the year 1 793, with the
exception of Mr. Farrell, and when I consider that there are
many individuals of the Catholic bar, of talent, knowledge, and
assiduity, of whom none are promoted, I must conclude that it is
their religion which stands in the way of their promotion ; it is the
opinion of the whole bar that if Mr. Bellew had been a Protes-
tant, he would have reached the height of his profession. In
consequence of his not having been appointed King's counsel, ht
has much less business in chancery, for which he is admirably
qualified. None but King's counsel can be much employed in
the Irish Court of Chancery. The individual who follows seven
or eight King's counsel, cannot expect a very favourable audience.
I mention Mr. Bellew's case as one of severe hardship.
Mr. Thompson, to whom you have referred, is a barrister, is h(
not ? — I always understood that he was an attorney. These fact*
illustrate the justice of my assertion, that religion enters into th<
consideration of the government, in the allocation of its rewards
and in making appointments to situations which Catholics ai
capable of holding.
Sometimes an individual at the bar holds language, with respect
to government, which might make it difficult to select him ? —
Sometimes individuals use language which may provoke the r
sentment, and perhaps in some cases incur even the just cerisui
of government ; but allowance ought to be made for the use oi
expressions which are prompted by what those individuals regard
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED;
as monstrous wrong ; that language is suggested by not mal
emotions. In the midst of large assemblies, the passions of men
become heated, and if vehemence of expression is employed, it is
provoked by injury, and by that state of feeling which is pro-
duced by the law. But the individuals alluded to are few in
number. There are not above two or three Catholic barristers
who take such an active share in political proceedings, as can be
offensive to government. The rest of the bar, although greatly
irritated by the injustice of their exclusion from place and honour,
from motives of personal prudence abstain from all interference,
yet the silent and more accommodating persons are as much over-
looked as the bolder and more angry few who complain of politi-
cal injustice. I may be permitted to add, with respect to the
individuals who take a part in public proceedings, that I am per-
suaded they not only would not employ vehement language in
public assemblies, but that if the Catholic question was settled,
they would scarcely enter into any public assembly whatever ; at
[least I can answer for myself, if I had a fair chance of reaching
that station in my profession for which my faculties may perhaps
'disqualify me, but in the way to which, in addition to the dis-
[ualification which may be produced by my incapacity, the law
ias created exasperating impediments ; I say if those obstructions
fere removed, I should take no further part in political concerns,
for I am satisfied, that so far from assisting the advancement of
an advocate in his profession, an interference in politics arrests
^his progress, and if I interfere at present, it is because I consider
St a duty to use every effort to procure a removal of the disqual-
ifications under which I labour.
Do you think, in case the general question of Catholic emanci-
ition were settled by Parliament, there would be a power exist-
ig in any individual to get public assemblies together, and to
create a combined operation in Ireland ? — I am convinced that it
[would not be in the power of any man, no matter however great
ihis influence might be, nor no matter how perverse his ambition
[might be, to draw large convocations of men together in Ireland ;
[nothing but the sense of individual injury produces these great
'and systematic gatherings, through the medium of which so much
1 passion and so much inflammatory matter is conveyed through
the country. Let me take the question of the Union as an ex-
ample ; there are many who suppose, that if the Catholic ques-
tion were to be satisfactorily arranged, the merits of the Union
would be discussed. But I am convinced, that if the Catholic
question were settled, a great body of the population, so far from
being dissatisfied, would be perfectly contented with the Union,
or be indifferent to it. Whenever any mention is made in a
Roman Catholic assembly of the evils of that measure, it is made
£30 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
for the purposes of rhetorical excitement, and not with any serious
view, upon the part of the speaker, to disturb that which, in my
humble judgment, is perfectly indissoluble. In answer to the
question, I beg to add this, that I am perfectly convinced that
neither upon tithes, nor the Union, nor any other political subject,
could the people of Ireland be powerfully and permanently ex-
cited: at present individuals feel themselves aggrieved by the
law, and it is not so much from public sentiment, as from a sense
of individual injustice, that they are marshalled and combined
together.
Do you happen to know the proportions of Roman Catholics
and Protestants who are employed in the Police ? — I myself do
not know it exactly ; but a Parliamentary return has been pub-
lished on the subject, and I believe in the county of Limerick it
appears there were not above forty police men Catholic, out of a
hundred and fifty.
You stated the inequality of the numbers as the ground upon
which you formed an opinion, that the government was influenced
by that principle in making the appointment ? — When I find a
decided minority of Roman Catholics in the police, where there is
so decided a majority in the population, and where I find the
police are selected from the lower orders, I must consider religion
as the principle on which the selection is made. In Dublin I be-
lieve almost the whole police are Protestant.
By whom are the police men appointed ? — I believe the police
men are appointed at present by the chief constables. Speaking
on the subject of the police, I may be perhaps allowed to mention
the case of one Delap, as connected with the administration of
justice, from which subject the examination has diverged. I
was about to state several facts, which shew the administration of
justice is not perfectly pure, when I was led from that topic to
other matter; I am prepared to state other facts.
Did you ever know an instance in which the question of reli-
gion actually interfered with the appointment or non-appointment
of a police man ? — No ; for my occupations are of such a nature
as put me out of the way of obtaining knowledge of that kind ;
but I can mention a fact which exhibits the feeling of the people
upon the subject, and their suspicions generate as great an evil as
if that principle operated. I recollect a police man was found
guilty at the last assizes at Clonmel, of murder. I walked through
the streets after the conviction, and attended particularly to the
observations of the lower orders respecting this conviction. Many
of the people said, " We are sure he will not be executed, be-
cause he is a Protestant : " that is a most fatal feeling, and means
ought to be taken to remove it.
Do you think that individual ought to have been executed ?—
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 231
He ought not to have been hanged, because, though it was mur-
der in law, it was not in morals : he had drunk too much ; he
was returning to the place where he was quartered from Clonmel,
upon a car ; a peasant lad came out on a sudden, in the dusk of
the evening, from a house on the road, and made some clamour
or noise. The police man conceived that this boy was going to
shoot him ; he resolved to anticipate him, and shot him dead ;
the boy had no arms in his hands. Under these circumstances it
was thought by the judge that the police man ought to be spared ;
but the lower orders, without knowing any thing of the facts,
said, as a matter of course, " He is a Protestant, and of course
will be pardoned.1'
Do you think the proportion of the population is a considera-
tion which ought to guide the government in their appointments ?
— I think it ought to be taken into consideration ; government
should endeavour to conciliate and tranquillize a great body of
the community, who not only have the power of acquiring wealth
and intelligence, but have actually acquired both ; they ought to
take into consideration the feelings of that great body, who not
only find themselves branded on account of their religion, but
who sustain actual and positive deprivation. A wise government,
in its appointments, ought to regard the feelings of the majority
of the people.
You go the Leinster circuit? — I do.
Do you happen to know the proportion that Roman Catholics
and Protestants bear to each other in the Excise department ? — I
do not ; but I know the Custom-house of Dublin was filled not
only with Protestants, but with Orangemen ; that evil, I believe,
has been cured ; I believe a great purification of the Custom-house
has taken place.
In what mode has the purification been effected ? — I believe,
by the Commissioners appointed for the purpose.
Has it been by the removal of the Protestants, or the insertion
of Catholics? — I believe it has arisen from making a selection
from a better and a more fitting class ; the Custom-house was an
object of patronage with the government ; Members of Parliament
constantly exercised their influence for the purpose of obtaining
small places connected with the Custom-house : in consequence,
very unworthy persons were appointed ; those persons were gene-
rally Protestants ; being brought together into one office, their
feelings were strengthened by cohesion ; they valued themselves on
their religion ; men assumed the pretensions of high gentlemen,
who had only one qualification of ^i gentleman in Ireland, namely,
the Protestant religion.
What principle do you suppose influenced the Members of
Parliament in recommending those persons ? — -The Members of
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Parliament who recommended the individuals did not probably
take their religion at all into the account; but the persons em-
ployed in the Custom-house were of the description I have men-
tioned, and put on all the airs and insolence of Orangeism.
Do you know that in the Revenue there are very few Ro-
man Catholics? — I do not; I know some persons who have
been employed in the Custom-house ; I learned from them, that
the clerks were Orangemen; their discourse turned upon the
necessity of keeping Papists down.
The point with which you set out was, that there was not a
fair opening to the admission of Roman Catholics, and that the
Roman Catholics were excluded by the practice of the govern-
ment?— I stated it with reference to the police, and with re-
spect to my own profession, of which, of course, I have more
accurate knowledge ; with respect to the Revenue, I believe the
majority of persons in employment are Protestants, and also
Orangemen, but I am not able to state whether the principle
of their original appointment was connected with religion; the
supporters of Ascendency would naturally take religion into
account.
Are you aware that Mr. Thery, the Commissioner of Excise,
and Mr. Troy, who is at present Collector of Limerick, are both
Catholics ? — I am aware of it ; Mr. Thery told me he was appointed
in consequence of a special recommendation from Mr. Edmund
Burke, given many years ago, and afterwards attended to.
Do you know at what time they were admitted ; by what Ad-
ministration ? — I believe it was by the Bedford Administration.
You mean to say then, that, in point of fact, the Roman
Catholics do not enjoy a fair proportion of the patronage of
government? — I am sure of it; the promotions at the bar
establish the fact.
Do you know any thing of the Post-office in Dublin ? — No ; I
know only one individual who holds a place in the Post-office of
Dublin, and he is a Roman Catholic ; but he has informed me,
that the conversation which takes place in the Post-office among
the clerks (persons holding offices analogous to his own) per-
petually turns upon the necessity of supporting Orangemen, and
keeping the Papists in subjection.
Do you know the proportion of Roman Catholics and Pro-
testants in that establishment ? — I do not.
Which do you think preponderate ? — If I may be allowed to
conjecture, or to do more than conjecture, and to presume that
government act, with respect to the Post-office, in the same way
as I believe they do with respect to other departments, I should
say that Protestants preponderate.
The Post-office is not a department on which you have formed
RICHARD SHIELL, ESa. EXAMINED.
your opinion of the conduct of government, in this instance ? —
No; but when I find that my Lord O'Neill is at the head of the
Post-office, and is also notoriously at the head of the Orange
party, I presume that his opinions have not only been communi-
cated to those who act in inferior departments, but if he has any
patronage, of course he exercises it in favour of persons who sym-
pathize in politics with himself.
If you found that the majority of persons employed in the
Post-office were Roman Catholics, what would be your infer-
ence ? — My inference certainly would not be, that they had been
appointed in consequence of being Roman Catholics; and I
should not be able to account for the circumstances, unless they
were persons eminently well qualified, who had been recom-
mended, on the ground of that qualification, by an excellent
officer, Sir Edward Lees.
In the case of Protestants, you would conceive they had been
appointed in consequence of their religion? — I think it would
assist their appointment. If I were opposed to the Catholic
claims, and anxious to support the system of Ascendency, I
should consider the most efficient mode of supporting that sys-
tem would be, to exclude Catholics from even inferior situations,
and thus deprive them of the influence which those situations
would confer. By holding such employments, Roman Catholics
would obtain another step on the ladder. The greater the in-
fluence of the Catholic body, the more difficult it must be to
resist their claims to emancipation. It is with a view to ulte-
rior objects, that they are excluded from minor offices. It is in
order to diminish the weight and consequence of the whole body
of Catholics, and sustain the general system of Ascendency, that
they are denied their due participation in the places of emolu-
ment, to which they are admissible by law. This is the result of
the general spirit of the penal code, which, independantly of its
evils upon society, works much individual wrong.
If it should appear that the majority were Roman Catholics,
why would not you attribute that circumstance to favour to the
Roman Catholics, as you state, that if the majority were Pro-
testants, you would attribute it to favour and partiality to them ?
— Because there is reason for the one, and not for the other.
You stated, that you conceive appointments ought to be made
according to the proportion of the population ? — I do.
Do you think that principle has application to the bar? — I
think government ought to take it into consideration. I know
that the appointment of Mr. Farrell has been a most popular
measure; I know that it gave great satisfaction to the people,
and I am sure it would be conducive to the purposes TO trail-
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED
quillity, if the lower orders saw persons of their own religion
intrusted with office and authority.
Do you mean to say, that founding the principle of selection
on the proportion of numbers, a less qualified person ought to
be appointed to any situation, merely on account of that supposed
proportion between the numbers ? — I do not ; but I know, and it
is the opinion of the persons highest at the bar, that Roman
Catholics are fully as well qualified as Protestants.
Then you mean to infer, that, c&teris paribus, the claims of
merit, regard ought to be paid to numbers ? — Certainly ; with a
view to the conciliation of the people, it is more important to
conciliate the majority of the people who are Catholic, than to
gratify the cupidity of the majority of the bar, who are at present
Protestant. Besides, Roman Catholics being excluded from the
higher offices, the government ought, in justice, to make up for
that exclusion by appointing them to the inferior.
You state, that the proportion of Protestants to Catholics, at
the bar, is about five to one ? — It was recently so ; but that pro-
portion is becoming essentially different. The Roman Catholic
bar are rapidly increasing, and they will, in my opinion, increase
in a greater proportion than the comparative property of Protes-
tants and Catholics would lead one to suppose. A Roman
Catholic who acquires money in trade, makes his son a barrister,
It is a feather in his cap to have a counsellor in the family.
The bar in Ireland enjoys more station than in this country;
and to enrol his son in this class, who, from the absence of
persons of real rank, enjoy an artificial importance, has become
an object of ambition. There are more Roman Catholics in
trade than Protestants, and, in consequence, the number of Ro-
man Catholics sent to the bar from this motive, must exceed the
number of Protestants. Besides, the Protestant church enables
its members to provide for their families, by making parsons of
their sons. The Catholic is deprived of this source of provision,
and sends his sons to the bar. I recollect, that about two years
ago, eight gentlemen were called, in the same term, to the
bar : four of them were Protestants, and four were Catholics.
Previous to four years ago, the proportion of Protestants to
Roman Catholics was considerably greater ? — Yes.
The proportion of Roman Catholic barristers you think is
augmenting ? — Yes, rapidly ; and in the course of a few years,
the number of Catholics and Protestants, I think, will be nearly
the same.
At present they are five to one, and before a late period, the
proportion of Protestants was greater ? — Yes : I shall mention a
reason why the number of Protestant barristers should, as yet, so
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 235
much exceed that of Catholics ; Protestants come to the bar, not
only with a view to rise in their profession by the exercise of
their talents, but because the expectation of patronage allures
them to a profession to which so many places are annexed.
Do you think it possible that any previous government, finding
the proportion of Protestant barristers to Roman Catholics, sup-
posing their acquirements to be equal, could have gone upon the
principle of appointing Catholic barristers in the proportion of
the Roman Catholic population to the Protestant ? — Not, cer-
tainly, in the same proportion ; but I think that Catholic bar-
risters ought not to have been excluded, and regard ought to
have been had to the feelings of the great body of the people,
which would have been conciliated by their nomination of Roman
Catholics.
You stated, that the Roman Catholics bear a great dispropor-
tion to those of the Reformed Church, in the Police in Ireland?
—I believe that appears from the Parliamentary return.
Did you ever hear that the Roman Catholics had a di&nchjia-
tion to serve . in the police in Ireland ? — I never did ; on I he
contrary, I am sure they have no objection.
Did you never hear that they looked upon the police as 1 he
realization of some old prophecy about a black militia which was
to arise, at this period, and to kill all the Roman Catholics ? — I
never heard any such thing.
Have you turned in your mind the question of the qualifica-
tion at present required for a Roman Catholic freeholder ? — I
have not given it a great deal of attention ; but this I will say,
that if it was put to the Roman Catholic body whether they
would accept of Roman Catholic emancipation upon the indis-
pensable terms of raising the qualification of the freeholders, Ca-
tholic emancipation is a matter of such paramount moment, that
the people would be ready, and more than ready, that they
would be most anxious, to accept of emancipation even upon such
conditions; and I further think, that so far from its being an
injury, it would be a benefit to the lower orders, that the quali-
fication should be raised, and that the mass of the peasantry
should not be invested every five or six years with a mere resem-
blance of political authority, which does" not naturally belong to
them, and which is quite unreal.
Do you think it would be in any respect practicable to effect
an alteration in the qualification of the freeholder, unless accom-
panied with the measure to which you have already alluded ? —
I think Catholic emancipation should be made the precursor of
such a measure ; I am convinced that if such a measure was at-
tempted without Catholic emancipation, it would only tend to
produce deeper bitterness of feeling than now exists.
236 RICHARD SHIELD ESQ. EXAMINED.
Are you aware of the proportion of Roman Catholics and
Protestants in the Excise ? — I am not.
Are you not aware that the gangers in the excise are generally
Roman Catholics ? — I am not.
What is your opinion respecting making a government Pro-
vision for the Catholic clergy ? — I am convinced that the Roman
Catholic clergy would accept of such a provision, if Roman Ca-
tholic emancipation were to precede it.
Would they accept of it without emancipation ? — I am sure
that they would not.
Do you think that it would cause any jealousy on the part of
the Roman Catholic laity ? — I think that if the provision to be
granted by government were to be subject to the control of go-
vernment, in individual cases there would be much jealousy,
because the appointment would be referred to unworthy motives ;
I think the provision for the Roman Catholic clergy must be
made in its allocation to individuals, independent of the govern-
ment.
You think it must be allocated to the duties, and not to the
persons ? — I think that there must be an allocation made to the
duties, and that the individuals who are to fulfil those duties, and
to be paid for their performances, must be selected by the
hierarchy and not by the government ; I think it would be very
injurious that a parish priest, receiving three or four hundred a
year of the treasury, should by named by the government.
Do you think Catholic emancipation would be a perfect mea-
sure without the payment of the priesthood, and without raising
the qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise ? — With
respect to the raising the qualification of freeholders, I am not
perhaps very well competent to judge, for I have not resided
much in the country parts of Ireland, nor am I much acquainted
with the lower orders; but I am well acquainted with the Roman
Catholic clergy, and in my opinion, if a provision were granted
to them, provided always it was made independent of the go-
vernment (that is indispensable) the result would be, that the
lower orders would not be alienated from the priesthood, but
that the influence of the latter would continue to be usefully and
legitimately exercised, that they would be perfectly reconciled
with the government, and that the Roman Catholic gentry would
be induced to send the younger members of their families into
the Roman Catholic church, a better system of education would
be established, and the intellectual habits of the priesthood would
become more refined.
You mean, that the provision should be inalienable, after it
was once granted ? — I mean, that when a vacancy occurs by the
death of a parish priest (I take the case of a parish priest as an
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 237
example) the person who is to succeed is not to be selected by the
government ; that is all I mean to say. If the appointment were
to be made by the government, two evils would result ; in the
first place, the lower orders would be quite alienated from their
clergy (which would be a most serious evil) ; and in the second
place, I conceive that unworthy persons would be appointed.
How is the appointment made at present ? — The appointment
of the parish priest at present is made by the bishop.
The Roman Catholic bishop of the diocese has the absolute
appointment to all the parishes within his diocese? — Yes; but
the Roman Catholic hierarchy, though absolute in name, are
greatly under the influence of public opinion ; they generally
select the individual whom the parishioners wish to nominate.
They consult the wish of the parishioners in the appointment ?
— Yes.
Do you think any interference whatever, direct or indirect, on
the part of government, in the appointment of the bishop, would
be equally objected to ? — I myself, at one time, supported what
is commonly called the veto. My opinion was, that Roman Ca-
tholic emancipation, or in other words, the liberty of my country,
ought to be purchased, even at some hazard ; but I think the
measure of a veto would (I will not say whether on just or unjust
grounds) be extremely unpopular. The public mind has been
heated upon the subject ; the passions have been highly raised,
and will not subside with rapidity ; and I think that if the govern-
ment were to insist on a veto, it would impede, for some time at
least, the beneficial results of Catholic emancipation.
Do you mean by veto, the giving the crown an absolute vote ?
— I do ; but I think any interference in the appointment of
bishops objectionable ; I am not sure, however, whether in the
course of two or three years, when the people had become habi-
tuated to' the exercise of this restrictive power, the public feeling
would not become, if not reconciled to it, at least apathetic on
the subject ; but I certainly am apprehensive that if the govern-
ment possessed, without ever directly exercising this power, some
suspicions as to the rectitude of the motives of men in office in
interfering in the appointment of bishops would exist, and that
suspicion would in itself be an evil which ought to be avoided.
Do not you think, after the measure of general emancipation
has been carried, supposing it to be carried, and the administra-
tion of the government with respect to the highest offices remained
in the hands of government, their motives with respect to the ap-
pointment to subordinate offices would be very narrowly inquired
into by the Roman Catholic body ?-—! am sure they would not ;
I think that Roman Catholics would obtain, if not places of high
authority, at least places proximate to authority. Roman Catho-
938 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Jics would obtain seats in Parliament, some would support and
otheis oppose the government, all sectarian sentiment would be
merged in political interest ; such Roman Catholics as displayed
talents would, I presume, be advanced by government for their
services, and if a few only of the Catholic body were promoted,
all suspicion of partiality would be at an end.
That is on the assumption that the removal of disability by
Jaw is perfectly and fairly acted upon by the executive govern-
ment, and that individuals, according to their merit, being Roman
Catholics, are promoted to the higher offices of the state ? — I have
assumed that the government would act with impartiality to a
certain extent, but although the government should show some
leaning in the distribution of its favours towards Protestants, and
as they are seised of the greater part of the landed property of
Ireland, for a considerable time the principal places would be
given to the members of the established church, I still think the
Roman Catholic body would not be sore upon the subject, if they
saw Roman Catholics raising themselves to real distinction, and
obtaining the power of protecting the community to which they
belonged ; they would not murmur at some preference being still
manifested towards Protestants ; a single individual of talent in
the House of Commons, professing the Roman Catholic religion,
and representing the feelings of the Roman Catholics, would to a
great degree allay the spirit of hostility which prevails among the
great body of the people of Ireland ; because they would then
feel that their rights were asserted, and that they had a voice in
the legislature.
In the profession of the law, where the possession of property
cannot be expected to have great weight, some reference would be
made to the respective numbers at the bar, of Roman Catholics and
Protestants ? — I think the Roman Catholics would not be so un-
reasonable as not to take into account, in the first place, that the
Protestants at the bar are more numerous, and in the second, that
they have more patronage and more influence ; but I think they
would justly resent the omission to raise qualified persons to the
rank of King's counsel.
Or to the judicial bench, if they have talent ? — I doubt that ;
there are but twelve judges, and no individual can complain that
he is not appointed to the judgment seat, as matter of personal
injustice; it is, indeed, unjust that a whole class should be inca-
pacitated by law. The exclusion from the bench is a political
grievance which affects the whole body of Catholics, and carries
a stigma with it ; the ineligibility of the body is quite distinct from
the non-election of the man. The omission to raise a Roman
Catholic of high merit to the right of King's counsel is an indivi-
dual wrong, it throws him back in his profession, touches his pecu-
KICJURD SH1ELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 239
niary interests, places his inferiors in acquirement above his head,
and wounds his honourable pride.
There is a power of granting a patent of precedency to a Roman
Catholic ? — Yes ; but it has never been exercised.
When you express that the Roman Catholics would consent to
the freeholders qualification being considerably raised, you conceive
it would be a general measure, extending to Protestants as well as
Catholics ? — Certainly ; if a distinction was taken, our elections
would be scenes of religious agitation.
But that the qualification for Presbyterians, Dissenters, Church-
men, and Roman Catholics should be the same ? — Yes ; and I
think, that when the election law is about to be modified, it would
not be injudicious, if persons having beneficial chattels real, should
be entitled to vote ; a man, with a lease for 999 years, which yields
him forty or fifty pounds a year, should have a vote.
Do you think an arrangement of that kind, which would dis-
qualify persons actually in possession of that franchise, and which
they had exercised, and never abused, would give satisfaction to
them ? — I think the great body of the people of Ireland, particu-
larly the freeholders, are greatly swayed by the higher class, I
am sure that Mr. O'ConnelFs influence is so great, that if Catholic
emancipation were passed, he would reconcile them to the surrender
of that, which is to a great extent, but an imaginary right.
Do you think he would reconcile the Presbyterian dissenters to
it ? — There his influence would be without effect ; I am not at all
acquainted with the north of Ireland, and I cannot say how the
Presbyterians would feel ; but with respect to the south of Ireland,
I believe the tenant, who has by virtue of forty shillings, a qualifi-
cation to vote, would yield what is but a wretched appendage to
his few acres of land, without much regret.
Supposing another gentleman should arise, who took another
view of this from Mr. CVConnell, and should protest against the
opinion of Mr. O'Connell, and should hold, that they were in pos-
session of this right ; that it was a right they had always exercised ;
that they had never abused it ; some person like Doctor Doyle for
instance : do not you think he might create a considerable party
in the south of Ireland, in favour of retaining the elective fran-
chise ? — I think not ; I think, indeed, that the lower orders in
Iceland, can be easily influenced by an appeal to their religious feel-
ings : they feel greatly irritated at seeing every Protestant that
passes them, their superior ; there is the point on which they are
sore ; with respect to the elective franchise, I do not think any
individual would be able to excite any permanent feeling ; the
subject is not naturally connected with religion.
Being easily excited on subjects connected with religion, sup-
posing those to whom they looked up in religion were to consider
240 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
this a diminution of their influence, and were to protest against
it, do not you think the influence of persons, who took that view of
the subject, might create a considerable impression ? — I think that
the Roman Catholic, of the lower orders, could not be induced to
think, that his religion was endangered by a general modification
of the elective franchise. On the subject of the veto, the clergy
have naturally exercised a very considerable influence ; but there
is no such connexion between the elective franchise and religion,
which would give any man the means of exciting the religious
passions on that ground.
Have not cases occurred recently, in elections for counties, in
which the influence of the priest has been very greatly exerted ? —
No doubt about it ; but the influence of the priest in elections,
arises from the question of Roman Catholic emancipation, and
none other. It is in reference to that question, that it is exclu-
sively exercised. If a priest came forward at an election, and
directed the people not to vote for any man who would not sup-
port Parliamentary reform, the people would not listen to him ;
but when he tells them, not to vote for any man but who will not
support the Catholic claims, he makes an appeal, which in my
opinion is justified by reason and sound sense ; he could not, I
think, produce any impression on the lower orders, except on some
subject immediately involving a religious question, and not colla-
terally connected with it.
If he said, u do not vote for any man who will vote for the dis-
qualifying of the freeholders,'''' would not he make an impression ?
— I am sure he would not ; and I am sure the priests would feel
no interest in the subject, and would not interfere. In the county
of Dublin, the clergy exercised influence at the last election, but
it was on a subject in which the clergy and people had a common
concern ; besides the passions of the people are at present ex-
tremely inflammable. It is only necessary to apply a spark to
set them on fire ; but even now it would be impossible to excite
the people on a subject not involving their religion, and if eman-
cipation were passed, a different feeling would speedily prevail,
and the power of excitation would be diminished, because the
popular passions would be allayed. It is the law which now
creates the materials of public excitement.
Supposing the civil disabilities of the Roman Catholics were
removed, and that in a county election there were two candidates,
a Protestant and a Roman Catholic, do not you think it would be
possible for the priest to make a very strong appeal to his flock,
in favour of the Roman Catholic candidate ? — He might make an
appeal, but I think it would be unavailing ; there would be an
end to their political resentments. Even now, the Catholic
priests are in the most cordial intimacy with Protestants ; they
niCHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 241
perpetually dine with them ; habits of close friendship exist be-
tween the Roman Catholic priesthood and the Protestants ; there
is no individual distaste towards the Protestant existing in the
mind of the Catholic priest ; he feels an antipathy only to the
system by which he and his countrymen are kept in what he con-
siders a state of degradation.
Then the existence of civil disabilities has created no disgust
between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants ?— I think
where the Protestant gentry do not oppose Catholic emancipa-
tion, the priests and they are upon a good footing ; but that
where a Protestant gentleman opposes Catholic emancipation, he
at once becomes an object of antipathy to the priesthood, in com-
mon with the rest of the Catholic community.
You do not mean your last answer then to apply generally, as
describing the state of feeling ? — No ; I confine it of course to
what we call liberal Protestants, to whom the priests entertain
a partiality.
What are the others called? — They are classed under the
comprehensive name of Orangemen ; some, of course, are more
conspicuous for their hostility than others, and incur a corres-
ponding aversion.
You make a distinction between a man who is an Orangeman
and a man who is tinctured with Orangeism ? — There are some
professed Orangemen, men who make Orangeism a matter of
boast ; they are extremely obnoxious. Others, who merely oppose
Catholic emancipation, are looked upon with feelings of more
mitigated aversion.
As the admission to Parliament, in case of the question of
Catholic emancipation being carried, could be granted merely to
Catholics of the higher orders of society, are you of opinion that
such a boon granted to them would be a reasonable ground, or a
probable ground of satisfaction to the lower orders of freeholders,
for the loss of the elective franchise, if the amount of the qualifi-
cation be raised, and the forty-shilling freeholder done away with ?
— I am convinced of it.
Would not the circumstance of granting emancipation remove
all prejudices that might exist in respect of the alteration of the
qualification of freeholders ? — I am convinced it would.
Have you read the statement of Mr. Burke on the subject of
the elective franchise, where he describes the value of it to a poor
man; do you recollect the arguments urged in 1793, that there
was actually a distinction made in the letting of land between
Roman Catholics and Protestants, that the Roman Catholic was
never courted by a rich man who was his neighbour ; but that
the Protestant received civility from him in return for his vote,
and that a great practical distinction arose in consequence of the
242 ftictiAfci) SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
disability under which the Roman Catholic laboured? — I re-
collect that argument was used, and I think if there were only a
few freeholders, that argument would hold good ; but where an
immense number of freeholders can be made by a single person,
(I think the Earl of Glengal has made 2,000 freeholders in the
comity of Tipperary,) there is then an end of the prerogative
which a freeholder is supposed to possess. The peasantry are
driven in droves of freeholders to the hustings : they must obey
the command of their landlord ; it is only in cases of peculiar
emergency, and where their passions are powerfully excited, that
a revolt against the power of the landlord can take place. In the
county of Dublin there were two strong reasons why, at the last
election, the tenant did not obey the landlord. The first was,
the intense interest which was felt in Catholic emancipation, and
upon no other subject could so intense an interest be felt : and in
the second place, the peasantry were put, by their utter misery,
arising from their fall of prices, beyond the landlord's power; the
landlord could not injure them, for they had nothing to lose;
they had no interest in their lands, and the argument put to
them by Mr. CTConnell was this, if you disobey your landlords
what will be the result ? they must seek for other tenants ; where
will they get them ? at the mendicity association in the city
of Dublin. The county of Dublin election affords no illustration
of the rest of Ireland ; it stands on its peculiar grounds.
Do you think a powerful appeal might be made to the people
on this ground, supposing the arrangement which you think on
the whole a desirable arrangement, were to be carried into effect,
here is an arrangement made by Parliament, the effect of which
is to open Parliament and Office to the upper classes of the
Roman Catholics, but the compromise required on your side is,
that you, the great mass of the people, who never can sit in Par-
liament, and to whom Office is no object, are to be deprived o
the only privilege that, practically, you are likely to enjoy ? — I
do not think any efficient appeal could be made among the lowei
order of the Roman Catholics (independently of some points in whicl
I think their interests are deeply concerned) ; a feeling of woundec
Eride is excited by the state of the law ; they think that they be-
nig to a degraded caste ; this sentiment operates strongly upon
them, and a mere imagination on their part will produce practica
results, just as pernicious as if the grievance were admitted to be
as substantial as I am disposed to think it. The people conceive
that they are degraded by the law ; that Protestants are placec
above their head, and that the Protestant in authority will have
a leaning towards the members of his own class. This feeling
produces deep concern. Let me add, that this feeling is justifiec
and provoked by the perpetual occurrence of irritating circum-
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 243
stances. The lower order of Protestants assert their superiority
to the poorer Catholics in every incident where they are brought
into comparison. Allow me to give an example : Sander's news-
paper in the city of Dublin contains most of the advertisements
of servants ; every servant who is a Protestant makes mention of
his religion in his advertisement for a place ; he thereby intimates
that he belongs to a better class in society ; that he is probably a
more decent and respectable man ; assuredly, this superiority, as-
sumed by the lower classes of Protestants in society, must be ex-
tremely galling to the Roman Catholics ; it meets them at every
step. To return to the question put to me, I conceive that the
Roman Catholic freeholders would be reconciled, by the ascent
they would make in the political scale, to the deprivation of what
is in reality no substantial enjoyment. They would purchase
equality with the Protestant servant and mechanic, at the expense
of a useless vote.
If they argue so sensitively on points of this nature, cannot
they argue equally sensitively on this point ; or may not a person
make use of that argument to dissatisfy their minds with this ar-
rangement, by which they are the only losers ? — I do not think
that any person who engaged in such an enterprise would suc-
ceed ; when the qualification of a freeholder is raised, there is an
incentive to honourable exertion given to the peasant : you do
not tell him he shall never vote, but you tell him, that in order
to exercise this privilege he must acquire an interest of five or ten
pounds a-year; he has always hope before him. The Roman
Catholic peasant would not consider himself as deprived of any
valuable possession ; most of the peasantry would expect to be able
by industry to raise themselves at last to the qualification; a
freehold would become an object of ambition, and would be a
' real and honourable privilege.
Will not the Catholics, in case emancipation is carried, consider
that measure as merely conferring advantages upon the upper
orders? — Certainly not.
Will it be to them and by them considered as a measure con-
ferring advantages upon themselves ?— They think it will confer
great advantages upon themselves, and it will, in my opinion,
confer those advantages by producing a reconciliation between the
higher and lower orders, by banishing the suspicion of injustice,
and generating an amicable sentiment towards the government,
which will conduce to the gradual diffusion of peaceable points,
by teaching the people to look up to the law as their certain protec-
tion, instead of seeking redress by acts of outrage, and by effacing
that line of religious demarcation which has rooted a disposition to
insult in the privileged and fevered class, and a feeling of deep
resentment in the lower orders of the community. The Catholics
R 2
244 RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED,
are constantly made the objects of the most galling contumely,
shall mention an example afforded by a person in the employ-
ment of government ; a gentleman at the head of the police in
the county of Wexford, not long ago told a number of Roman
Catholics who happened to be assembled together, that he would
direct his police men to shoot the Papists like rats. This insult
excited the strongest feeling of resentment among them; the
result was, that an investigation was directed by the lord lieu-
tenant into the matter; the Roman Catholic Association sent
down counsel; it was ascertained that those words had been
spoken, and the gentleman who had spoken them was removed
from that place and sent to another. It is quite obvious that
such words would never have been used, if the ignominious dis-
tinction between Catholic and Protestant were removed. If a
Protestant gentleman employed language so insulting, what may
not be expected from the lower orders of Protestants. The word
" Papist" is constantly in their mouths. The degradation with
which it is supposed to be attended, excites feelings of the deepest
animosity among the people. There would be an end to those
animosities at once if the Catholic question were settled, because
there would be an end to that injurious ascendency, which is per-
sonal as well as political.
Do they conceive that granting emancipation would, from this
situation of degradation, raise them to a footing of proper equality
with their fellow subjects ? — I am certain of it.
Do they talk much about the question, or take much interest
in it ? — It is, I understand from those who know them best, the
subject which chiefly occupies their attention.
Do you mean among the lower orders ?— Yes, among the lower
orders.
Why are they to be considered as disqualified from exercising
the elective franchise, if they are in the constant habit of talking
on elective matters ? — They all know the power of their landlords.
The landlord requires a very high rent, which generally speaking
the tenant is not able to pay, and if the tenant disobeys the land-
lord at the election, he will not of course take into account the
inability of the tenant to discharge his rent, but will immediately
distrain him. The peasantry therefore have no discretion on the
subject.
Deducting that influence from the landlord, you think that
from their general intelligence they are capable of making a pro-
per distinction between the individuals who are candidates for tin
county, and thus exercising their elective franchise ? — They rnaj
be qualified to form a judgment upon the Catholic question,
which is a subject that touches them nearly ; they have perpetual
opportunities of observing and feeling the practical evils that re-
RICHARD SHIELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 245
suit from the penal code; and they are therefore qualified to
judge upon the fitness of an individual to sit in Parliament, so
far as that question is concerned. It is upon that question only
that they now exercise any opinion.
What do you think would be the effect of a law, which raised
the qualification to a twenty-pound freehold, would it be to throw
more power into the hands of the Protestant voter than he at
present possesses ? — I am not very well qualified to give an opi-
nion upon the subject ; I have heard among Roman Catholics
themselves, a great dissent of opinion with respect to it. I believe,
that in some counties it would operate in one way, and in other
counties in a different way ; but I am sure of this, that free-
holders, whose qualification was raised, would be quite free from
religious prejudice, and would be disposed to consult their own.
individual interests in giving their votes, without any'sort of re-
ference to the particular form of Christianity professed by any
candidate.
You think there would not be any partiality, on the part of a
Roman Catholic voter 3 in favour of a Roman Catholic candidate ?
—I think that after a year, or some such short period, after the
question had been carried, no such partiality would be mani-
fested. I know that at first there might be some ebullition of
popular sentiment ; even now, a Protestant, entertaining opinions
favourable to the Roman Catholic claims, is rather preferred to a
Roman Catholic by the people, than regarded with any evil eye.
I am quite convinced that elections would, in Ireland, be decided
by higher personal and political qualifications, and by the as-
cendancy of wealth and rank. As an illustration, I beg to
mention that the plebeians of ancient Rome, who were excluded
for a considerable time from offices of honour and emolument,
which excited deep animosities in the commonwealth, elected a
patrician to the praetorship, immediately after the power of
electing a plebeian had been obtained. Livy says, that the
circumstance deserves note. There would be an end to all re-
ligious faction in Ireland, when the law had ceased to provoke
it ; and former feuds would be speedily forgotten.
246 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Veneris 4 die Martii, 1825.
LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR.
Daniel CPConnell, Esquire, again called in; and made the fol-
lowing Statement:
IN consequence of a question proposed to me, by an honour-
able member of the Committee, respecting the Orange lecture,
I thought it right to look out for the entry of that which he
alluded to, and I have brought it here; it is what I got as the
Orange lecture, taken from the 68th Psalm, and it entirely con-
firms his statement of it; with the permission of the Committee,
I will read it — "From whence came you?" " From the deep," —
"What deep?" " The deep of the sea," — " Whither go you?"
" To the hill."— " What hill ? " " Even an high hill as the hill of
Bashan." — " Who shall conduct you thither?" " The Lord of
whom cometh salvation."— 6t Have you a pass- word?" " I have."— .
" Will you give it to me?" " I did not obtain it so myself, but
I will divide it with a true brother, knowing him to be such;"
then the querist, " Begin — Answer — no, do you begin. Que-
rist, Re-answer. Mem. querist, ber. Re-mem-ber." This is
the entrance pass-word, and is accompanied with three knocks ;
the grand pass-word is " Sinai." The sign is made by putting
the fourth finger of the right-hand to the mouth ; the answer
is, by the other person placing his right hand upon his left
breast. I beg leave to add to that, that of course my own
private belief goes entirely with the assertion of the honourable
member, being quite convinced that he would say nothing of
his own knowledge but what was perfectly true; and if I
shall ever have an opportunity of speaking upon this subject
again in public, I will take care to accompany any thing I say,
with the confidence I have in the honourable gentleman's asser-
tion, and having said that I would wish to point his attention to
the psalm itself, because I give up my informer entirely; and
may I be allowed to say, that the gentleman to whom I gave
my honour not to mention his name, though he knew me well,
as I understood, was a student of Trinity College, but 1 could
not tell his name positively, I only conjecture his name ; I con-
sider him therefore, and the person who informed me for money,
as certainly persons on whom no faith can be distinctly relied,
that I think right to say now. The psalm itself is the 68th, it
begins " Let God arise, and let his enemies be scattered; let
them also that hate him *flee before him." The hill of Bashan
is mentioned in the words of the 15th verse; " The hill of God
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 247
is as the hill of Bashan, an high hill as the hill of Bashan;"
those are the very words, and the 17th has the pass-word,
" Sinai." " The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even
thousands of angels, the Lord is among them as in the holy
Elace of Sinai." Then, " Who shall conduct you thither? The
ord, of whom cometh salvation." That is taken from the
20th verse. " He is our God even the God of whom cometh
salvation ;" Then the place they come from—" From the deep —
what deep?" The deep of the sea, is taken from the twenty-
second verse. "The Lord hath said I will bring my people
again as I did from Bashan, mine own will I bring again as I did
sometime from the deep of the sea." Then it is in the next verse,
comes the object of bringing them from the deep of the sea. "That
thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and that the
tongue of thy dogs may be red through the same ;" so that as
they come from the deep of the sea conducted by the Lord God,
how easily a vulgar furious person of the lower class might add
this verse to that very one from which the first part is taken,
as in fact it makes part of the same sentence. I wish to give
that explanation as the reason that my credit was attached even
to a person that I would not easily believe ; however I repeat
again, that what the honourable member said, has considerably
affected any belief I had upon that subject ; in as far as gentle-
men of his class are concerned, I am convinced ; but there are
low and vulgar persons also Orangemen.
Will you be good enough to inform the Committee, from what
law offices Catholics are excluded in Ireland? — The Catholics are
excluded from all the superior offices of the law ; from the office of
Chancellor, from the office of the Master of the Rolls, the Judges
of the Court of Exchequer, Common Pleas, King's Bench, Admi-
ralty Courts, Ecclesiastical Courts; of course from all those sta-,
tions: they are also excluded from the office of Attorney or Soli-
citor General, or Serjeant, Counsel to the Revenue Boards,which
in Ireland are places of very great emolument, and also from
the office of King's Counsel, the salary of which, I believe, is
about thirty-six shillings a year, the advantages of which are
very great even in this country, but are infinitely greater in
Ireland, where we practise in all the courts, and where prece-
dence is infinitely more valuable to each individual: Catholics
cannot be Masters in Chancery.
Can a Catholic be a proctor in the Ecclesiastical Court?— In
practice they are not allowed to be so ; I do not recollect whe-
ther the law precludes them, but in practice they are not; I
believe the law excludes them. Catholics are not allowed to be
advocates, although in point of law they may be such; Mr.
Lynch, a gentleman of the bar, a Catholic, applied for a man-,
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
damus, he being qualified in every other respect, in such a way,
that if he were a Protestant the right would have been ad-
mitted at once : he was a doctor of laws, and he applied for a
mandamus to compel Doctor Duigenan to admit him to prac-
tise as an advocate ; but it was held by the Court of King's Bench,
that it was discretionary with the Judge of the Ecclesiastical
Court to admit an advocate, and no Catholic has been admitted
as an advocate : the practice of the Ecclesiastical Court is, that
if there be one advocate in a cause, other counsel may assist him,
as they call it, who are not advocates ; but the consequence of
that is, that the conducting of Ecclesiastical causes is taken
away entirely from the Catholic barristers ; and every gentle-
man who knows the profession, knows that no young man rises
into considerable business with us that did not begin by being
a conducting counsel in particular causes, doing the business out
of court, preparing the pleading, advising each stage of the
proceeding, having the agent or proctor communicating with
him confidentially in the cause.
Catholics cannot be sheriffs or sub-sheriffs? — Catholics can-
not be sheriffs; it was the received opinion that they could not
be sub-sheriffs ; my opinion is ptherwise, and accordingly for
the last two years there have been Catholic sub-sheriffs ; they
have acted upon my opinion. There is an Act of Parliament
distinctly making void certain acts of sub-sheriffs; but from the
entire construction of that Act I think they are not disqualified,
and I published an opinion upon it, showing my view of their
capacity to be sub-sheriffs ; and for the last two years they have
been so sometimes.
Are Catholics excluded from all corporation offices? — From
all corporation offices regulated by the Act of Settlement, the
new rules and regulations to the statute of the 15th and 16th
of Charles the Second, to the best of my recollection; the Act
of Settlement authorized the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Coun-
cil to make rules and regulations by a proclamation, which
should have the force of law, in the arrangement of corpora-
tions in future, to avoid danger from the republican settlers
who had got possession of the corporations ; I mean the Crom ]
wellian settlers ; and by those rules and regulation no corporate
office can be held without taking the oath of supremacy, which
Catholics do not take. In the statute of 1793, there was an ex-
ception; that statute does not extend to any thing contrary
to the new rules and regulations. I believe the framers of that
Act were not apprised of the extent of exclusion that was created
by that exception. The new rules and regulations apply to all
the principal corporations in Ireland, to everyone worth speak-
ing of; and the result of them is, that the Catholics cannot be
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 249
mayors, sheriffs, aldermen, common councilmen, sub-sheriff in
corporations, town clerks, master or warden of any guild, or fill
any station in a corporation save that of simple freemen, which
is not a station, but is the possession of the franchise.
Can Catholics hold the office of governor of a county? — No.
Or that of custos rotulorum ? — No.
Then after the description you have given of the offices from
which they are excluded, the following are the whole of the
remainder that are excepted in the Act of 1793, namely, the
office of Lord Lieutenant, Lord Chancellor, Lord High Trea-
surer, Secretary of State, Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-
tenant, Keeper of the Privy Seal, Vice Treasurer, Privy
Councillor, Teller or Cashier of the Exchequer, Auditor Ge-
neral and Postmaster General? — Yes; but in that list there
are most important situations omitted, an omission that is the
cause, perhaps, of all we consider grievous ; we are excluded
from both Houses of Parliament.
They are not excluded from any honorary distinction, such
as Knights of St. Patrick ? — No ; 'not from titles of honour,
they are not excluded ; the first titles in the nation are the
right of and are enjoyed by Catholics.
And they are excluded from no rank in the army ? — There is
a clause in the annual Mutiny Act *, that dispenses with the
putting of the oath of supremacy ; that has been called amongst
us Mr. Croker's clause, a clause which allowed the superior offi-
cers to admit an officer to take rank in the British army, without
taking the oath of supremacy, and took away the penalty which
the superior would otherwise have incurred, if he had omitted
it ; the practical effect of that I take to be, that at this mo-
ment the army is as open practically to the Catholic as to the
Protestant, throughout all its ranks.
Does that extend to the navy ? — My opinion is, that it does.
Can Catholics be commanders in chief? — I speak now from
a recollection of the clause, but the clause seemed to me to be
universal.
Are not Catholics obliged to take what is called the Qualifi-
cation Oaths of 1773, in order to be able legally to buy or
sell, or bequeath lands? — The penal code is, in my judgment,
in full force against any Catholic who has not taken the oaths
prescribed by the repealing statutes ; the mode in which the re-
peal has been hitherto made, is not by repealing the statutes
themselves, but by leaving them in full force, except as not
applicable to persons who shall have taken the oaths ; the con-
sequence is, the Catholic can enjoy no right unless he has taken
the oaths ; and the grievance of a very serious nature, that, if
* The Clause is not in the Mutiny Act, but an Act passed on purpose to open
the Army and Navy to Catholics
250
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
there be not something further done, will affect Protestants
deriving titles through Catholics, as well as Catholics, is just
this, that if the evidence of having taken the oath be lost, the
property is as discoverable at this moment, according to the
Irish phrase discoverable, which I before explained, as it was
in the reign of George the First.
Then, in point of fact, all the Acts of Anne and the subse-
quent Acts, passed by the Irish Parliament, against Catholics,
are still the law of the land ? — I would not venture to commit
myself so far as that, but if any have been repealed they are
extremely few ; some particular clauses as to schoolmasters, I
think, have been directly repealed, but all the laws affecting
landed property are in full force, and so late as the last term
we had a question argued in the court of King's Bench, where
a Protestant landlord brought an action of covenant against a
Catholic tenant ; the defence set up by the Catholic tenant
was, that he was not bound by his own covenant, inasmuch as
he had never taken the Catholic oaths.
What was the result of that action ? — The court did not pro-
nounce judgment upon it ; I was concerned for the Protestant
landlord, I argued it for him against the Catholic; it was argued
by Mr. Perrin for the Catholic fraudulent tenant ; the court
took time to consider for two or three terms, and in the mean
time the parties compromised, and the question has not been
decided ; I had arranged that the compromise should not be
known to the court, but it broke out before the court gave its
judgment.
Can you illustrate the meaning of the word discoverable ? —
What is called discoverable is this : by the statutes of Anne,
the property then in the hands of Catholics was converted
from its regular hereditary nature, into gavelkind, that is, a
qualified gavelkind, not following the custom of Kent exactly,
but a special gavelkind, giving all the sons an equal title to the
estate as long as they continued Catholics ; and it took away
from the father the power of making any limitation, or affect-
ing the property with any charge whatsoever, save bond fide
debts to Protestants: that was the effect of the law as to property
then in the hands of the Catholics ; but the law went further, and
prevented Catholics in future from acquiring any property, or
taking by a purchase, or taking in any ways except by that gavel-
kind descent, or taking any tenure beyond an occupation lease for
thirty-one years ; so that if a Catholic took by marriage settle-
ment, by will or by purchase, in its ordinary meaning, that is,
buying or by lease, other than a thirty-one years' lease, or if
he had more profit upon a thirty-one years1 lease than a third
penny, as, for instance, if lie paid twenty pounds, and the
land became worth thirty-one pounds, in all those cases any
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 251
Protestant who chose to file a bill in a court of equity, merely
statingthe title thus acquired by a Catholic, in general terms,
and stating that the individual possessed of the interest was a
Catholic, and that he himself was a Protestant, and that he,
upon those premises, prayed, and was entitled to, the relief of
having the interest or estate, or whatever it was, taken away
from the Catholic, and vested by the decree of the court in
him, the Protestant ; and the Act took away entirely the de-
lays from the Court of Chancery and the Court of Exchequer,
and compelled the immediate answer upon oath upon the first
process, and took away any demurrer to such bill ; it did not
allow the Catholic to demur, so that all technical forms were
waved, and he was obliged to answer upon oath. Thus
the Catholic, who was put out of all civil offices from his
respect to an oath, was put upon his oath at once as to his pro-
perty, and whether he was a Catholic or not.
Do the Committee rightly understand it to be your opinion,
that this is the law of Ireland still, in all cases in which the
Catholic has not taken the Catholic oaths ? — I have no hesita-
tion in saying, that it certainly is. The Bill was called a Bill
of Discovery ; any land that could be the object of such a bill,
was called in Ireland Discoverable land.
Then any land held by a Protestant, if derived from a Catholic,
is liable to a Bill of Discovery? — Before 1778, any land held
by a Protestant, that was tainted in its progress to him, by
having been for one moment in the hands of a Catholic, either
as a trustee or otherwise, was discoverable in the hands of that
Protestant; and instances were very frequent in which Pro-
testants lost their estates and properties by Bills of discovery :
one instance is upon record, in which a gentleman entered into
Trinity College, Dublin, as a sizer, became a clergyman of
the Established Church, lived for fifty years a clergyman of
the Established Church, acquired an estate, and left it to his
son, a Protestant ; and his son lost that estate by a bill of dis-
covery, because the Father had entered Trinity College after
fourteen, and never regularly conformed ; the father was born
of Catholic parents, he was probably twenty when he went to
Trinity College, Dublin, and entered as a sizer there.
Having become a Protestant in the meantime ? — He could
not have entered without being a Protestant.
He was deemed to have been in law a Catholic, because he
had not conformed before fourteen years of age ? — He was, ac-
cording to the legal phrase, plainly a Papist in point of law,
because the son of every Papist was by law taken prima facie
to be a Papist, unless under the age of fourteen he went pub-
licly to church ; he was a Papist for his life, unless he con-
252 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ,, EXAMINED.
formed; and it is right I should add, from my professional
experience, there was scarcely one instance of regular con-
formity in Ireland ; conformity that would bear the test, ex-
cept in Dublin.
What is regular conformity, according to law? — Regular
conformity was taking certain oaths ; the oaths of supremacy,
receiving the sacrament in church during divine service, filing
a certificate in the superior courts of having taken the sacra-
ment during divine service, and of having taken the oaths at
sessions. The statutes were equivocal, if the certificates were
filed in the superior courts ; there ought to be two of them ;
that was sufficient. Now the first defeat that appears upon the
conformities is this, that in general it was certified that the
person received the sacrament after divine service, and not as
the statute required it, during divine service ; that is a very
common defect in the conformity. The next was, that it was
required to file a certificate in the court of the sessions, of
taking the sacrament ; and that the certificate of having taken
the oaths was to be filed in the court above. The consequence
was, that in the country the mode in which they proceeded
was this ; they filed the certificate of having taken the sacra-
ment accordingly in the court of sessions, and they took a cer-
tificate from the court of sessions, of having filed that certifi-
cate there, and of having taken the oaths, and they filed that
certificate in the courts above. Now that was not considered
sufficient ; the certificate in the superior court was the only thing
that, according to law, could be looked at, and that was only a
certificate that somebody else certified, that the sacrament had
been received. There were two certificates necessary ; one
was a certificate of having taken the sacrament, the other was a
certificate of having taken the oaths. If both those were filed
in the superior courts, it was sufficient ; and therefore, when
they conformed in Dublin, they put the clergyman's certificate
in the court of King's Bench ; and they took a certificate from
the court of King's Bench, that that certificate was there, that
that person had taken the oaths ; and they filed that certificate
in Chancery, where it should be filed.
That was good conformity ? — That was good so far, because
both were in the superior courts ; the Chancery certificate, and
the taking the oaths in the court of King's Bench, was in a
superior court ; the certificate of having taken the sacrament,
was also in a superior court ; but I never saw a good certificate
from the court of sessions below ; they always left one certifi-
cate, that is of having taken the sacrament, in the sessions
court below ; they only took to the superior court a certificate,
that that certificate had been filed at sessions, and that the
DA.NIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 253
oaths had been taken ; and that was held under the words of
the statute not to be sufficient.
How is the case with regard to landed property, purchased
by Protestants from Catholics, since the year 1778? — In prac-
tice it has not been looked to much ; very few Catholics have
sold landed property ; they have been rather acquiring than
selling ; but in practice no barrister could allow a Protestant
client to purchase a property from a Catholic, without taking
special care to see that a certificate of his having taken the
oaths was enrolled in the court of Chancery.
It would not be a good title without ? — I should riot consider
it so ; I would call it a bad title.
Is the oath required to be taken, the oath of the Act of
1773?— There are the Acts of 1773, 1778, and 1793, that
include oaths.
Do they all relate to purchases of landed property ? — All
those that are required are necessary, in order to give title to
land.
Does any practical difficulty arise in taking those oaths ac-
cording to law ? — Some little delay, but no substantial diffi-
culty in taking them ; the great defect at present is, that they
may be taken at sessions, and the roll kept there ; there is no
obligation to transmit that roll to Chancery ; and as the re-
cords of the inferior courts in Ireland have been hitherto very
badly kept, there is a danger of the loss of the evidence of
having taken them.
Can you mention to the Committee, any other disabilities,
to which Catholics are liable, under the existing laws? — I have
not, upon my recollection at this moment, any other ; to the
best of my recollection, I have gone through the actual dis-
abilities.
An impression has gone abroad, particularly in Ireland, that
the priests of parishes throughout Ireland, have got records of
the forfeited estates in Ireland ; will you state, whether that
has come within your knowledge ? — I am thoroughly convinced,
that there is not one single particle of truth in it ; that it is as
unfounded as any thing can possibly be ; and having been ex-
amined, as to the forfeited properties the last day, and having
been asked, whether I had any myself, I would wish to add
this, both my brothers are in independent circumstances,
wealthy for country gentlemen ; they are both younger than
me ; all the property of each of them is forfeited property ;
and I just closed a purchase for my youngest brother, of an
estate near the town of Threlin, a fee-simple estate, producing
at present about 700 /. a year, which was forfeited at the
usurpation, by a Colonel Roger M'Eligot, and in that in-
254 DANIEL 0'rOtfNF.LL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
stance we considered it, a better title for having been forfeited ;
and the way that I knew it was the forfeiture of a Colonel
Roger M'Eligot, was, by it so appearing upon the patent and
the official documents making part of the title.
Are not Catholics prohibited, as Catholics, from having
arms in their possession ? — There is a higher qualification re-
quired for a Catholic to carry arms than a Protestant ; he must
have 100 1. a year in freehold estate, or a thousand pounds per-
sonal fortune.
Every Protestant may carry arms? — Every Protestant in
Ireland may carry arms.
He must also take the oaths ? — Certainly ; the entire penal
code is enforced against any Catholic who has not taken the
oaths ; there are recent Acts, requiring the registry of arms of
Protestants as well as Catholics, but those are expressly tem-
porary statutes ; and I do not speak of those temporary statutes
applying to disturbed times ; but with the exception of those
temporary statutes, the right of every Protestant to carry
arms in Ireland is, in my opinion, unqualified.
Do Catholics generally take those oaths, is it a matter of
course for them to take them?— The Catholics are always per-
fectly ready to take the oaths ; I never knew a Catholic refuse
to take them.
Are they all aware of the necessity of taking them ? — They
are not all aware, by any means, of the necessity of taking
them ; when it was necessary to take them before an election,
so as to have a certificate of their having taken them at the
election, all Catholics had taken them ; but when the law was
relaxed, so as to enable them to be taken during the election,
it became useless for the candidates to object that the certifi-
cate of a Catholic was not ready to be produced, for the
objection could only pospone the vote a few minutes ; the con-
sequence is, that the candidates no longer object, they give up
an objection that would be futile, and as, therefore, practi-
cally, the certificate is not called for, the Catholics are begin-
ning very much to neglect taking the oaths ; and in the next ge-
neration, if some alteration is not made in the law, great con-
fusion as to property will ensue.
Are Catholics all obliged to take those oaths, to qualify for
voting at elections? — To this extent, that in point of law they
have not a right to vote unless they have taken the oaths ; at
present they need not have a certificate beforehand, for they
may take them during the election if the objection be raised. I
was two or three times assessor to the sheriffs, and at that
period there was not any difference on the subject of these
oaths.
DANJEL o'CGNNELLj ESQ. fcXAMf&ED. 255
In the event of a petition against the return, would the
votes of all those persons who could not produce a certificate,
be disallowed ? — In inv opinion they ought to be ; however the
question would arise tnus, if the Catholic takes the oath at any
time, it has under the statute of 1793, a retrospective effect,
and a question would arise upon that objection to him, if he
had taken it before his vote came before the committee, it
would certainly be contended that that was sufficient, besides,
it could not well come before the committee, unless an objec-
tion were made at the election, and if it were made at the elec-
tion it would have been obviated at once.
Has not, in practice, the entry of the clerk of the peace
been sufficient at the time of election ?— r-No ; the clerk of the
peace was directed by the statutes to keep a roll, that roll
would be sufficient, for it was from that the certificate was taken.
Are you aware that by an English Act of the 31st of
George III. Catholic places of worship and Catholic clergymen
are protected from disturbances, during divine service? — Yes.
Does the same privilege and protection exist in Ireland ? —
No, it does not : there is no statute protecting Catholic places
of worship or divine service in them, except the Whiteboy
Acts, when a county is disturbed, and no county, unless dis-
turbed, is within the purview of the Whiteboy Acts ; they are
called into operation, and the felonies created by those statutes
are constituted felonies by the fact of the county being dis-
turbed ; whenever a place is so disturbed, then it is either a
misdemeanour or a felony to disturb divine service in a Catholic
place of worship, or to injure the building itself; they get,
therefore, protection by statute only by the Whiteboy Acts,
the Catholic clergymen having been frequently the object of
those Whiteboy disturbances, as well as the owners of tithes.
Is not the state of the law, with regard to intermarriages of
Catholics and Protestants, very much complained of? — It is
much complained of, and I have known it in practice attended
with great mischief; it was not at all generally known, and is
not even now universally known, that the marriage of a Pro-
testant and a Catholic by a Catholic priest, is void ; recent
circumstances, and the great circulation of matter through the
press, have made it known ; but I have known one instance of
a Protestant of ancient estate who married a Catholic lady ;
the priest married them, they were both quite ignorant that
that was a void marriage ; they had three or four children ; he
had not the estate at the time of the marriage, the estate de-
scended upon him afterwards, and when he came to consult
counsel upon some of the arrangements of the estate, he dis-
covered that his three eldest children were bastards, and could
256 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
not inherit, and then he went, after six or seven years cohabita-
tion, to church and married the lady over again ; she continued a
Catholic, and does still.
What penalties are Catholic priests liable to, for marrying
a Protestant and a Catholic ? — There are two penalties by the
law ; the old statute makes it a capital felony, and the sta-
tute of 1793 gives a penalty of 500 /. so that if both those
statutes co-exist, there is first a capital felony, for which he
may be hanged, and then there is a pecuniary penalty of 500/. ;
but my own humble judgment is, that the necessary effect of
the latter statute is to repeal the former ; it repeals it by neces-
sary implication.
Have any instances of late occurred, in which priests have
been prosecuted for marrying Catholics and Protestants? —
Several ; a case occurred in the county of Gal way, and there
is a priest now from the county of Derry, a fugitive for having
married a Catholic and a Presbyterian ; that is now depending.
The consequences of a marriage of that kind being cele-
brated, are to illegitimatize the issue ? — Certainly.
And to create a confusion with respect to property ? — Yes.
You feel it a very desirable thing, therefore, that the thing
should be prevented ? — Certainly, that some arrangement should
take place upon that subject.
Do not you think it would be a very desirable thing, if the
Roman Catholic bishops were, in their several dioceses, to
issue a cautionary letter to their several priests, to request
them to attend to'the provisions of the law upon the subject? —
I believe that that letter is unnecessary, because, in every case
where a Catholic clergyman can abstain conscientiously from
doing it, he is directed so to abstain ; but there are cases in
which he would feel it his duty, from motives of conscience, to
marry persons particularly circumstanced, as where family
peace and concord would be interrupted, and cases where one
can easily conceive it may be necessary for the prevention of
immorality, and preventing the continuance of immorality.
Could not that be equally effected by the ceremony first being
performed by a Protestant clergyma'n? — It could; but there
are cases where that cannot be arrived at so easily.
You mean, there are some cases of extreme urgency, that
would not wait for the performance of the ceremony by a Pro-
testant clergyman?— Yes, or there would be reasons for pre-
venting it. Again, the Catholic clergyman is equally guilty
in point of law, whether he knows that the party is a Pro-
testant or not. There was a case tried at Galway, where the
parties represented to the priest, that they were Catholics,
and he incurred a capital felony, if the capital felony still
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ., EXAMINED. 257
exists, by marrying persons who he was convinced were Ca-
tholics.
Was not there a case of that sort that occurred in the county
of Roscommon ? — There was.
Was not that case one in which the party who was mar-
ried represented himself to be a Catholic, and afterwards turn-
ing out to be a Protestant, he went and instituted an action,
against the priest, (and recovered penalties? — Yes, 500 /.
Do you recollect the name ? — I do not recollect the name of
the case.
It occurred last summer ? — Within the last eighteen months.
The facilities of marriage in Ireland are great ; and my own
opinion is, that they ought to be so ; that immorality is pro-
duced by their not being so, and no other result ; and I do not
myself think there would be the least inconvenience in making
the celebration of marriage more public, and allowing the
clergymen of the various classes of Dissenters and Catholics to
marry, where' either of the parties was of the communion of
the person celebrating the marriage.
Are there not a class of priests that go by the name of Fa-
ther Tack'ems ? — There are individuals in that class, that have
been silenced by their bishops, deprived of their livings for
misconduct, who have supported themselves afterwards by
celebrating such marriages ; but, as I remember, there is a
statute making that species of celebration a transportable felony
in the priest, although it does not render the marriage invalid,
making it penal in him to follow that trade. No Catholic,
clergyman, who is not under censure of his bishop, has ever
acquired that appellation, or has, I believe, deserved it.
What is the state of the law, with regard to Catholics
attending vestries ? — At present Catholics cannot attend vestries
whenever any question arises respecting the building or repair-
ing of churches ; they are excluded by a statute passed in the
reign of either George the First or George the Second, from
such vestries ; and sums to an extremely large amount are levied
upon the property of Catholics, for it is the occupier that pays
the parish cess, by very small vestries of Protestants, in con-
sequence of that statute.
If the Catholic conforms to the Protestant religion, and then
relapses to the Catholic, in what situation is he under, by the
laws of Ireland ? — I should speak with great diffidence upon
that subject, because, whatever opinion I formed upon it was
not, I believe, consistent with an extremely high authority in.
the law ; but my opinion is, that if, after a relapse to Popery,
the person takes the Catholic oaths at the sessions, there is no
question made as to the relapse, and he is precisely in the same
s
258 DANIEL o'C'ONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
situation as if he had been a Protestant. There is, however, a
difference of opinion among the highest men in the profession,
upon the subject. Mr. Saurin is of the opinion I am, but I
understand there were doubts entertained upon the subject at
one time, by most respectable authority.
Has any case been decided to settle the point ? — The point
lias not been settled ; but I ventured to advise a gentleman of
considerable fortune so to qualify ; and one gentleman in par-
ticular, who left a property to the amount of 4000 /. a year,
did so ; and although he disinherited his eldest son, his will has
not been questioned.
Was the case in which that doubt arose, a case respecting
the capacity of the person to make a will ?^— It was.
Does not that rest somewhat on a different foundation. You
are aware that some persons are of opinion, that the disabilities
under the old statutes attach not upon the making of a will,
but on the taking under it ; and therefore, that although a
person were in the situation of being considered as having re-
lapsed to Popery, still that would not disable him from making
a will ? — The doubt, I understood, arose in the mind of the
person to whom I alluded, particularly upon the statute of
1782. The persons who took in the case, who were the youngest
sons, were Protestants ; the eldest son was a Catholic ; although
the father returned from the Protestant religion to the Catholic,
he disinherited his Catholic son.
What is the law respecting the conversion of a Catholic
priest to Protestantism? — The law has been totally altered
upon that subject lately ; till very recently, whenever a Ca-
tholic Priest was converted to Protestantism, he had a provi-
sion upon the county for 40 1. a year, that is taken away ; he
also was a recognised minister of the Established Church by
the very act of conversion : his orders are still recognised, but
there has been a recent statute, preventing him from officiating
without either a license or some immediate authority from the
ordinary of the diocese.
Is that power in grand juries rescinded ? — To my recollec-
tion it is.
Are you aware what statute it is? — It is within the last
three or four years.
He is disabled, as all persons in the Protestant Church are
disabled, from officiating in any particular diocese without the
authority of the ordinary ; but are you aware of any particular
statute which disabled him in any* other way? — I can venture
to say, there was a particular statute, and I shall be able to-
morrow, with the index, to point it out.
Tf Roman Catholics were admitted to the right of voting in
DANIEL C/CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED, 25$
vestries, do not you think it would be very difficult to pass
any question for the building or repairing of churches in
Ireland? — I do not think any fair case would be resisted; of
course, upon this subject, it is a speculation, but, as far as I
have seen, my own conviction is, that no fair case would be
resisted ; indeed, I am deeply convinced that a fair case would
not.
In discussions respecting Roman Catholic hardships, it i$
not stated as the greatest hardship of all, that the Roman Ca-
tholic is called upon to contribute to Protestant churches ? — -
The greatest hardship is, that he is called upon to build and
repair churches, where that building is totally unnecessary, as
it is in a great number of instances in the south ; in the county
of Kerry, for example, I know parishes where churches have
been built for a single individual or two. I know many in-
stances, and that there is one going on at this moment, in the
parish of Jaghadoe, in the county of Kildare ; there is but a
single Protestant in the parish, a Mr. Grierson ; they are
building a church there, that I understand will cost about
1,000£. the Catholics offered to build a dwelling-house for Mr.
Grierson.
Is it not the fact that Protestants have disappeared from
many parishes, in consequence of their not having a place of
worship to go to of their own ? — I am not at all aware that
that is the cause ; that the Protestants have disappeared from
very many parishes is certainly the fact ; they have melted into
the mass of the Catholic population by marriages ; and in some
respect perhaps by the great readiness to attend the sick in
contagious diseases, of the Catholic clergymen, who have not
families and have no apprehension of bringing to their own
families contagious disease ; a Protestant parson may risk his
own person very well, but if he catches a contagious disease
his wife and children will be likely to get it from him, and that
must operate upon the minds of the very best men ; it is not
so with the Catholic clergyman, he has nothing to risk but
himself, and he goes amongst the persons in contagious dis-
eases, particularly the lower orders.
Have you not understood that wherever churches have been
built a congregation has appeared ? — A small congregation I
apprehend always appeared wherever there was a church built,
and for this distinct reason, that there were several offices
always chargeable upon the parish, annexed to the church ; as
for example, parish clerk, sexton, bell-ringers and sweeper of
the pews, frequently a sextoness ; those offices make a small
congregation ; but I have seen that when the persons who filled
those offices got seriously ill and Were near dying, they almost
s 2
260 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
universally, indeed I believe universally, sent for the priest
and died Catholics ; I have known several instances of that.
Do not you conceive the necessary consequence of not having
a place of worship for one particular class of Christians, is to
drive them to avail themselves of another form of Christian
faith? — Certainly; wherever there are Protestants my opinion
is there certainly ought to be a place of worship for them as
convenient as possible.
Are there any legal restraints upon Catholics with respect to
acting as Guardians? — They cannot be guardians, as I recollect,
of Protestant children, they must take the oaths before they
can be guardians of their own children, or any other children;
but taking the oaths is never considered a hardship, except from
the nature of the oaths themselves ; for example, we are obliged
to swear that we do not believe it lawful to murder any person
for or under pretence of his being a heretic ; now I never took
that oath yet, that I did not feel excessively degraded at being
obliged to swear such a thing, as that it is so cruel to impute to
any body so horrible a thing as to believe that doctrine.
Those oaths are long oaths, are they not ? — The oaths are very
long.
Are there any other obnoxious abjurations contained in
them ? — I do not recollect at present any thing else that is ob-
noxious; there is a great deal of matter besides that, which is
perfectly unnecessary, but from the state of calumny upon the
Catholics in general, we are not sorry to disclaim those tenets
In the most unequivocal and distinct way.
Are they not considered by Catholics as casting calumny up-
on them ? — They are considered as perpetuating the recollection
of calumnies, for the necessity of refuting a calumny always
presupposes its existence ; and when you ask a person to refute
it, you give it a kind of credit in the first instance, so that it
would be supposed, if it was not refuted it would be believed.
Will you be so good as to state to the Committee, what the
effect of" the law has been with respect to yourself, as to your
own practice in the courts? — I feel it an excessive grievance that
I cannot be King's counsel; from my general political prin-
ciples, my own opinions being strong upon the subject of Par-
liamentary Reform, I should not be likely to get any office other
than that of King's counsel, winch is not considered a marked
political favour; but not being King's counsel is certainly a very
great pecuniary loss to me, and it leaves me still, in the twenty-
seventh year of my professional exertions, obliged to work in
all the minor branches of my profession at the same time that I
am working in the superior ones; I believe in the presence of
the Attorney General for Ireland, I may say that I do as much
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 261
business as any man at the Irish bar ; my professional receipts
last year were upwards of 6,000/. without of course any portion
of it coming from government, or any source but the ordinary
practice of my profession. It would be an amazing conveni-
ence to me, and I think it would increase my emoluments, by
increasing the fees, and would diminish my trouble very con-
siderably to be King's counsel.
Have you not known that several gentlemen differing politi-
cally from the government, are King's counsel? — I have known
great fairness in that respect, and I may be mistaken ; but I
should certainly expect from the noble lord at the head of the
law in Ireland, that my political opinions would not prevent
me from being made King's counsel by him or any portion of
the Irish government, if I was competent to be so.
Does riot it also operate as a great inconvenience to other gen-
tlemen, that when persons are desirous of having the advantage
of your leading for them, they are obliged to decline the ser-
vices of other gentlemen? — I will say distinctly, that I know that
a number of Protestant gentlemen are suffering very consider-
ably in their profession, by my not being King's counsel. I
know instances every term, in wnich the agents come to me, and
although my wish, in point of delicacy, is totally to decline the
nomination of other counsel, when I suggest a name, sometimes
they say " He is your senior, I would be very happy to have
him as counsel, but neither 1 nor my client will put any man
over your" head." I know that several Protestant gentlemen
suffer very considerably by my not being King^s counsel.
Have any gentlemen who are junior to you been appointed
King's counsel? — Very many; the greater part of the prac-
tising King's counsel are my juniors, and two of the judges ; it
is right to make a junior to me King's counsel of course, but
I do not know of any junior, who had as much business as my-
self, who is put over my head ; Mr. Blackburne is my junior,
certainly high in the profession, but that could never create a
jealousy in my mind, he is one of the best lawyers in the pro-
fession.
Do you know any instances of the interference of Protestant
clergymen at the last Dublin election?— I know of one parti-
cular interference ; the original autograph of the following
letter was in my possession, written by Dean Langrishe, to a
person of the name of Bartholomew Senior, during the late
contested election for the county of Dublin ; the original was in
these words, " Senior, as you are a staunch Protestant and an
honest man, I suppose you can have no difficulty in voting for
Sir Compton Domville. Do not by any means fail in attending
at the hustings, and be as early as possible, I believe your son has
262 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
got a vote also; pray fetch him with you. J. H. Langrishe."
That Senior I understand holds some office connected with the
church.
With regard to the population of the county of Kerry ; which
barony of the county do you conceive to contain the greatest
number of Protestants? — 1 should suppose Trughanamy, in
which the town of Tralee is situated.
Is there not a kind of Protestant colony in the town of Tar-
bert ? — I believe not ; there were some Protestants brought in
from the county of Limerick, by Mr. Leslie for his yeomanry
corps, and they constituted for some time an Orange lodge
there, as it was said, but the far greater part of the population
of Tarbert, is Catholic, as in the other towns; that is, the great
majority of them must be Catholic.
The corps of yeomanry which is at Tarbert, is considered to
be a Protestant corps? — It is considered as an Orange corps;
there are some Protestants in it, but besides those, the others
mostly are Orangemen ; there are some few Catholics I under-
stand.
How has the tranquillity of that part of Kerry been, as com-
pared with other parts? — That has been the most disturbed
part of the county ; and the parts of the county where there are
most Catholics, have been the most tranquil; the barony of
Iveragh, one may say, is almost exclusively Catholic; within my
recollection, on two occasions, when disturbances occurred
there, upon the first of those occasions I had to come to the,
county, and in five days I put it down completely, and had two
or three of the leaders in it transported. Upon the second oc-
casion, my youngest brother who is an extremely active magis-
trate, in the county of Kerry, had more trouble, because the
last disturbance was much more extensive, in putting it down ;
it took him three weeks, but he put it down completely, with-
out the assistance of a single soldier.
Are you at all aware whether there has been any distinction
proved to exist in courts of justice, between the Whiteboy oath
taken in the neighbourhood of Tarbert, where that corps of
yeomanry existed and the Whiteboy oath taken in other parts
of the county? — My conception is, that there was in the neigh-
bourhood of Tarbert, something against Orangemen in the
oath, of an exterminatory nature, which certainly was not taken
in the other parts of the country, as appeared in the evidence;
the reaction of one party always creates additional virulence in
all those unfortunate disturbances.
How did that appear? — I understood at the trials at the
assizes at Tralee, it so appeared.
What was the state of the county of Kerry during the re-
DANIEL O'CGNNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 263
bellion of 1798? — I recollect it well; it was perfectly tranquil
every where but at Curtleriland; there was not within thirty-
miles of the residence of my father or uncle, a single soldier or a
single yeoman, except my brother who belonged to the Ken-
more yeomanry cavalry, that was distant twenty-four miles
from it.
Were there not at that time certain individuals in the county
of Kerry, who were considered to partake of the revolutionary
principles of those times? — There were.
Were those persons of the superior ranks of life? — They were.
What was their religious faith ? — They were the sons of ma-
gistrates and grand jurors, some of them; and they were all
Protestants.
Were there not at that time a great number of Protestant gen-
tlemen considered as united Irishmen, though the fact was, that
they were not at all connected with the society ? — Not immedi-
diately in 1798, but in 1799 they were; as the Orange system
grew strong, it became the habit to consider every Protestant
of liberal opinions as an united Irishman, and to brand him as
such ; and the newspapers did so.
Have you had any means of ascertaining the effect produced
upon the temper and disposition of the people, by the Insurrec-
tion Act ? — I think the temper produced by the Insurrection
Act, is likely to be very unfavourable in the case of future dis-
turbances, the opinion created by the facility of transporting
persons leaving a very deep impression of injustice about it ;
and if there shall be disturbances hereafter, my own apprehen-
sion is, that that they will be still more sanguinary in conse-
quence of that.
Do you think it tends to augment and to continue any sort of
indisposition existing in the minds of the people to the adminis-
tration of the law? — I am sure it does; it tends to pepetuate the
notion, that law and government in Ireland is a matter of mere
brutal force ; that it is the compression of power, and not the
administration of right. It creates that idea very much ; and
when I say this, I am not at all saying that there was not a
necessity in particular districts, for taking very violent mea-
sures, for certainly atrocious crimes had been committed in
particular districts.
Do you conceive that the same feeling is entertained by the
people, towards a decision of the Court of Insurrection Ses-
sions, that is felt towards a decision of the ordinary courts of
law at assizes, through a jury ? — Most certainly not ; there is
not the acquiescence at all ; to a certain extent, wherever there
is a jury, there is an acquiescence in the decision, however
against them; but the notion of the courts under the Insurrec-
264 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
tion Act, is totally abhorrent form any idea of law. It is the
sending away a man because they choose: the magistrates
are not sworn to do justice in the particular case ; a magistrate
comes in, and takes a partisan share in the transaction ; he
comes on the table as a witness, and whether he mixes with the
magistrates again, I cannot say; though I presume, from the
character of part of the gentlemen who were appointed as
King's counsel, that he is not allowed to vote after he has been
a witness, aud yet I cannot say that he is not.
In your experience on the Munster circuit, have you known any
instance in which juries have been either seduced or intimidated
from the discharge of their duty, in administering the ordinary
laws? — I have been counsel for more Whiteboys than perhaps
any other individual ever was in Ireland, and 1 never knew one
single instance of an acquittal that I could trace to any intimida-
tion or seduction ; I mean even in my own mind.
Have you known any instances, in which jurors have declined
attending at the assizes, in consequence of intimidation, or any
other indirect motive? — I have never known it; I think I heard,
at one time, of something of the kind prevailing in the county
of Limerick, some apprehension of that kind ; I heard of it only
once, and I never knew it; and in Munster, I do not believe it
occurred at all.
In the Munster circuit, with which you are acquainted, have
you known any distinctions to exist in the formation of juries,
by reason of the religious faith of the persons summoned ? — Yes,
I have ; I have known it prevail in the county of Cork ; it
is not attributable at all to the gentlemen of the bar, who con-
duct the prosecutions there either, under the late Attorney Ge-
neral ; and if there was a degree of comparison, it would be
less under the present; but under the late Attorney General,
the gentlemen of the bar did not countenance it at all ; and the
Crown solicitor for that circuit, would not countenance it
either; but the police magistrates interfere, that is the magis-
trates appointed by government ; and I have seen the magis-
trates for the county of Cork, I mean as well the police ma-
gistrates, as other magistrates in that county, attending parti-
cular prosecutions, setting aside the Catholic "jurors, and endea-
vouring to pick out, as much as possible, a Protestant jury,
some of them Orangemen.
That is rather when the cause comes on for trial ? — Entirely.
It is not, in influencing the return of the panel? — No; the
return of the panel in the county of Cork, includes a great
number of names; several hundred, as it ought to do; and
therefore, by means of the right of the Crown to set it aside,
the prosecutor in every case, can, in fact, choose his own jury.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 265
In the county you have alluded to, that right has been exer-
cised in setting aside Catholic jurors? — It was exercised till I
complained of it. I have endeavoured to avoid the criminal
court as much as I could ; but as soon as I complained of it,
Mr. Serjeant Goold, who conducts the criminal prosecutions
there, and who is as liberal a gentleman as can possibly exist,
and an extremely able man, instantly discountenanced it, and
prevented it as much as he possibly could ; the Crown solicitor
also concurred in preventing it.
Are you acquainted with the mode, in which the police, in
your county of Kerry, have been appointed? — The magistrates
in my county, kept to themselves the nomination of the police,
they nominated all the police, and there never has been the
least complaint of any outrage upon the people, being com-
mitted by a police man in my county ; in point of discipline
and appearance they are to the full equal to any other police,
arid in their efficiency they cannot be exceeded : they do their
duty without giving offence to any person; they certainly would
not lightly fire at any crowd of individuals in the county, for
any man who fired, could not know but it would be his own
brother or father he may shoot.
Do you know whether the majority of the police of the
county of Kerry are Catholic, or Protestant ?— I believe a very
decided majority are Catholics.
Do you think it advisable, in selecting and appointing police
men, to take men from the immediate neighbourhood ? — From
the county, I should think it decidedly advisable, whenever the
magistracy was of a certain character. The county of Kerry I
take to be particularly well circumstanced, with respect to a
great number of its magistrates ; it has excellent Protestant,
and I may venture to say excellent Catholic magistrates.
Would it not be likely to lead to the exercise of prejudice in
some cases, and of favour in others? — Yes, it would certainly ;
but the situation of a police man is an extremely valuable one
to the Irish peasant ; it is quite an establishment to him, and he
would not lightly forfeit it; and if he committed any kind of
offence, it would be known who did it immediately ; he would
be under the eye of his own neighbours, and he ^would not be
likely to escape as a stranger would. There is a kind of domestic
watching over him, if he be appointed in his own county ; my
own opinion, in the abstract would be, that it would be highly
advisable that the magistrates should appoint in each particular
county ; and I know in Kerry, where the experiment has been
made," the result is undoubtedly such as one would wish.
Individual police men have frequently very great power in
266 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
their dispersion over the county, in ones and twos? — They
have.
Without vigilant inspection, would not those powers be sub-
ject to very great abuse ? — Certainly ; but I think those much
more likely to be abused by strangers than by natives.
In the county of Kerry, where the magistrates appointed
from the inhabitants of the county their own police men, still a
power is vested in arid exercised by the government officer to
remove those police men, if he shall think fit, to any part of the
county ? — Yes, I understand that that power is vested in him ; it
is a power that one would say certainly ought to be in him.
Then, in the event of any favour being exercised, arising from
local connexion, do not you think that that power of change of
quarters is sufficient to correct it ? — It certainly would tend
very much to correct any local evil ; but my opinion is, that
the evil would be greater in bringing in strangers.
Do you know whether the clergy of the Roman Catholic
church, in the parts of Munster with which you are acquainted
have made any exertions in maintaining the peace of the county?
—Great and constant ; the clergy of the Catholic church in
Kerry are unremitting in their exertions, whenever occasion re-
quires to preserve the peace.
Are any^ particular instances present to your recollection, in
which their exertions have been of service ? — In all cases where
disturbances broke out I knew the Catholic clergy to take the
most zealous and active measures in their power, to quell the
disturbances.
Have those exertions ever been at personal risk to themselves,
or attended with fatal consequences to themselves? — At per-
sonal risk, certainly ; I do not recollect any case of fatal con-
sequence in Munster; except that in the county of Limerick,
there was a Catholic priest shot by them, upon his interfering
to prevent outrage or felony, he was shot by Whiteboys or
felons.
That was the case of Mr. Mulquiny ? — Yes ; it also happened
on the day that the man was murdered between Tralee ana Kil-
larney, in January 1822, his name was Brereton ; at that period
a Mr. O'Donnel at Milstrut was taken by the insurgents, who
turned out upon that occasion in open rebellion, and was ac-
tually upon his knees, to be shot, when the priest fortunately
arrived, threw himself between Mr. O'Donnel and the persons
who were going to shoot him, and remained in that position
with the utmost peril of himself ; they repeatedly declared that
they would shoot him if he did not come from between them ;
he protected at his own personal risk, Mr. O'Donnel, who
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 267
would certainly have been murdered if the priest had not done
that.
You have a good opportunity of knowing the opinions of the
Roman Catholic gentry in Ireland, with respect to the Protes-
tant establishment in the country ; have you any notion that the
Roman Catholic gentry of Ireland wish to have the Protestant
hierarchy transferred to their own priesthood? — I am quite
convinced that the Catholic gentry in Ireland would oppose as
strongly as it would be possible for them to do, any transfer of
the property of the Established church from that church to their
own ; I am quite convinced they would oppose it. I am sure, for
one individual, I should concur in that opposition most heartily.
Can you form any opinion, whether the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ireland would be disinclined to accept of a provision
from the state, if in doing so they were freed from all impu-
tation of making a separate cause from that of the laity ? — I am
convinced they would not accept it at all till the Catholics were
emancipated, because, until that event, they could not be freed
from the imputation of trafficking for their own advantage ;
but I am sure that if an equalization of civil rights took place,
they would accept of it, and that the Catholic gentry would
concur with them, in a desire that they should, the object being
to connect the Catholic clergy and laity of Ireland with the
government itself, to embody them as it were as a portion of
the state, and to give the government what we would desire, a
reasonable and fair influence over the Catholic clergy, so that
there should not be even an idea of any danger of their being
taken away to favour a foreign enemy, or to favour domestic
insurrection ; I am sure that is the opinion of the clergy, and
1 know it is the opinion of the Catholic gentry.
Do you think such an arrangement can in any manner have
the effect of alienating the flocks from the clergy, if so paid ? —
If made upon an Emancipation Bill heartily entered into, in a
proper spirit ; and I would beg leave to say, it would be better
to leave things as they are than to have an Emancipation Bill
that was not in a proper spirit both for the Catholics and Pro-
testants, for it would be giving us additional power, and leaving
still a stimulant to those animosities that divide the country ;
and I think the thing should remain as it is, unless it be done
heartily and cordially ; if it be done so, I have not the least
doubt that it would not at all interfere between the priests and
their flocks, or take away the influence from them ; there is
more of intellect about an Irish peasant than they frequently
get credit for.
Have you any reason to apprehend whether there is any
tendency on the part of any foreign country to interfere with
268 DANIEL O* CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
the education of persons for the Irish priesthood ? — Yes,
is ; I believe that there is in France a very great tendency to
that effect at present ; there is great encouragement now giving
to the education of Irish priests in France ; there are consider-
able funds, that in worse times were transferred by Catholic
families to France for the education of the priesthood ; my .own
family were among the principal contributors ; we have a large
property comparatively remaining, our admitted right, in the
French university ; we have now either four or five young men
educating there, but we have not one educating for the priest-
hood.
This was a great many years ago ? — These foundations were
established sixty or eighty years ago, when no priest could pos-
sibly be educated in Ireland. It would have been extremely
desirable, if at the peace it had been managed to get those funds
restored to this country.
Have you reason to think that at present the French govern-
ment are active with respect to those funds ? — Persons acting
under the French government certainly are ; and I have a
strong apprehension that that will increase very much if there
is a temptation left to its increase, by leaving matters as they
stand at present in Ireland.
Do you not believe that the Roman Catholics of Ireland,
both clergy and laity, would be very willing to afford to the
government of the country reasonable security for the domestic
education of their priesthood, and that their should not be
persons appointed from the establishments abroad ? — I am
quite convinced of it ; I beg to say, that I am thoroughly con-
vinced that the object of the Catholic clergy and laity of
Ireland is sincerely and honestly to concur with the government,
in every measure that shall increase the strength of the govern-
ment in Ireland so as to consolidate Ireland with England
completely, arid in every beneficial aspect ; I am quite convinced
of that.
And in that particular instance? — In that instance com-
pletely ; they would very heartily concur, that no person
should be nominated to any situation in the Catholic church of
Ireland who was not substantially educated, as well as born in
allegiance, and in Ireland.
Do you not think that some measure of that kind would be
calculated to give great additional security to the country
against foreign interference, in all domestic concerns? — I am
convinced it would ; my conviction is, that there is great danger
in allowing matters to remain as they are. Perhaps my private
interests influence, to a certain degree, that conviction, without
my perceiving it ; I do not perceive it, if my interests do ; but
DANIEL O'CONNELL ESQ. EXAMINED. 269
I am conscientiously convinced there is great future peril in
leaving the increase of foreign education of our priestnood in
the way it is likely to be.
Have you observed any difference in the loyalty of priests
who have been educated abroad, and those who have been edu-
cated in Ireland ? — No ; with this exception, the priests who
were educated in France were old, I may say, when I became
a man ; and they had a natural abhorrence of the French revo~
lution, which bore so much upon the Catholic clergy. They
were very strong anti-jacobins, if I may use the expression ; by
that means there was among them a great deal of what is called
ultra-royalism ; but with the priests educated at Maynooth,
the anti-jacobin feeling is gone by, and they are more identified
with the people ; and therefore in the phrase that is usually
called Loyalty, they do not come within the description of it
so much as the priests educated in France, for that reason ;
but then, in the time of my father and uncle, the priests edu-
cated in France were Jacobites. They were enemies to a cer-
tain extent ; while they submitted to the laws, their own opinions
ran against the succession of the present family on the throne ;
and they were perhaps dangerous before the French revolution
in that respect.
Have not considerable funds lately been applied in Ireland
to the establishment of seminaries, for educating and supplying
persons to do the duties of priests ? — The only funds that I know
of, to any amount, are those which the Jesuits have applied
for the purpose of establishing colleges there for education in
Ireland. I allude particularly to that at Clongowes, and its
branches.
Are you aware of any other Jesuit establishments that are
now founded? — Only those connected with Clongowes; boys
ought to be eleven or twelve to go to Clongowes ; I did not
send my own sons there till that age. There is a juvenile
establishment or two for young children, connected with Clon-
gowes ; I do not know of any other. There was a purchase of
a great part of a parish in the county of Tipperary, a short
time ago ; it was bought by a Mr. Rice, who is the great
founder of the monks' school in Ireland ; but he bought it I
know for an individual gentleman, and not for any establishment.
In this establishment do they educate for the priesthood espe-
cially, or educate generally ? — Educate generally ; my eldest
son, who is keeping terms, was educated at Clongowes, before
he entered Trinity college; and so my second son, till he de-
clined the literary pursuit ; and my third son, whom I at pre-
sent intend for the profession of the bar, is at Clongowes at this
moment ; my fourth son I mean to send as soon as he is fit.
270 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED,
It is only a preparatory education? — It is general education ;
no person can be admitted to the priesthood from Clongowes,
it has not become a regular Jesuit establishment ; they are
Jesuits, therefore, but as to the priesthood, a man must first
go through a novitiate and become a Jesuit, and then be priested
as a Jesuit, but the students at Clongowes have no connexion
at all with the priesthood, other than that they may become
priests, but in itself they have no connexion.
You stated, that you thought there would be no objection,
on the part of the Roman Catholic priesthood, to have the
appointments of the Roman Catholic clergy confined to persons
born and educated in Ireland? — That is my opinion.
Would there be any objection to the interference of the
Crown in prohibiting the appointment of particular individuals,
or in controlling them ? — At present there would be so much
that it would totally spoil the effect of any measure of emanci-
pation, and I would respectfully, in that case, submit that it
Would be better, perhaps, to leave things as they are than
meddle with that just now ; if hereafter, in practice, it was
found that any real and substantial inconvenience occurred from
the present arrangement, I am quite sure the government would
iind great facilities after the emancipation, both at Rome and
in Ireland, in making a proper and satisfactory arrangement on
that Subject ; I know much and intimately the opinions of the
most influential of the Catholic clergy in Ireland, if they have
a political fault it is a leaning to government, and a wish to
identify themselves with the government ; and it is perhaps
right I should add, that there is no class of men more strongly
inclined that way than the leading men of that very college of
the Jesuits, very clever men, and highly cultivated.
You stated, that you did not conceive the Roman Catholic
gentry would at all concur in the plan for transferring to the
Roman Catholic clergy the possessions of the Protestant
phurch ? — I do.
Do you think the Roman Catholic gentry would feel any
objection to a diminution of the property of the Protestant
church, which was not connected with a transfer to their own
church ? — None at all ; they would be very desirous of a dimi-
nution of tithes.
Would the Protestant gentry be equally so ? — I think there
would be great unanimity upon that subject, from Armagh to
Kerry.
You conceive, then, that the Roman Catholic does not pay
tithe more unwillingly than the Protestant ? — In practice I
have known the Protestant more outrageous in paying it than
the Catholic.
•ti'ANTEL VCONNELL ESQ. EXAMINED." 271
Have not you heard it stated, as a special ground of com-
plaint, that the Roman Catholic peasant should pay to maintain
the clergy of a different persuasion ? — I have, but I do not
think I ever heard it complained of, except in the cases which
are so general in the south, of there being no Protestant, or
scarcely any, except the clergyman who receives the tithes ; but
I never heard, where there was a fair proportion of Pro-
testants ; I do not think I have, I may, but I do not recol-
lect it.
Do they consider it a greater hardship to pay to clergymen
than to lay impropriators ?< — I cannot say that they do ; I re-
collect, now, instances where they considered it still a greater
grievance to pay to a lay impropriator ; but in some of the in-
stances the lay impropriator has been more moderate than the
proctor or lessee of the clergyman, in others the lay impro-
priator has been the strictest of all ; in lay impropriations, in
two or three instances, they have considered it as quite ridiculous
to be paying tithes, where there is not the pretence of religion
at all connected with it.
Which do you think is the feeling which operates the most,
an objection to pay where religion is not concerned, or an ob-
jection to pay where a different religion is concerned ? — I do
not think it makes any great difference ; I am sure they would
have great objection to pay their own clergy, tithes, and cattle,
and fight as hard as they do, either with the layman or the
parson in questions of property ; abstract points of faith do not
enter much.
Are the Committee to understand, that you take a clear dis-
tinction between the Roman Catholics being willing that the
government should interfere, by nominating, or by any thing
equivalent to it, and their affording a perfect security that there
should be no foreign interference ? — The greatest and most
marked distinction, the interference of the government, in point
of nomination, would prevent any kind of harmony ; in the act
of emancipation, it would take away all influence from such
persons as have had influence among the Catholic people ; I
know some of them, they would wish to make the union cordial
and complete ; it would deprive us of the power of doing that,
the apprehension upon that subject is very great ; and besides,
it could not be done without a reference to the tribunal at
Rome, without some assent from Rome ; it would, therefore, be
a postponement ; but in itself, even if the clergy acceded to it,
the general turn of mind of the laity is such, that it would
spoil the effect of emancipation, and create, perhaps, a worse
feeling than exists even at this moment.
You do not apprehend any of these consequences from a per-
272 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
feet security being given for domestic nomination ? — I do not
apprehend any of those consequences; I think we should all
concur in that.
With respect to domestic nomination, there are two things
included in it ; one is, that the persons appointed should be
persons born and educated at home ; the next is, that although
the Pope has the patronage of your church, yet that the origi-
nation of the appointments should be domestic ; how far do
your ideas concur with these ? — Entirely concur with my own
wishes for both. I wish for both extremely. As to the first,
namely, being born and educated at home, I am quite convinced,
that that could be easily and immediately done. As to the
other, the taking away from the Pope all possible right of ori-
ginating a nomination, perhaps some difficulty may arise ; at
least means should be taken, and something in the nature of a
concordat, which I believe would be most easily managed, may
be necessary for that purpose. I do not say it will, because it
is only to a certain extent that my knowledge goes upon this
subject.
In point of fact, does the Pope at present exercise any such
power of original nomination ?— Yes ; he has nominated several,
it is understood, at the instance of the British government.
But otherwise, is it a thing acceptable to the Roman Catholic
clergy, that he should interfere in the original nomination ? — Ire-
land is considered, in the Catholic church, as in an anomalous
state. We have preserved the hierarchy complete, and yet it
is a missionary country ; and the amount of being a missionary
country is, that the appointment of ecclesiastics belongs to the
congregation De propaganda fide ', and in that way there is, as
far as I understand it, a greater dominion over the nomination
given to the Pope, and belonging to him, than if it were not a
missionary country. My notion is, and I believe I may speak
with some confidence, that it would be very easy for the British
government to have it cease to be a missionary country ; and
that, in fact, it would cease to be a missionary country the mo-
ment the Catholics were put upon an equal footing with other
British subjects; at this moment, the original rights which
remain are national rights, and those national rights would be
under the control of government, so far as they do not inter-
fere with religion itself. 1 think, therefore, that that arrange-
ment may be made ; that there is a part of it that could be made
at once, but that the other would require some detail.
Do you happen to know that any country is considered other-
wise tnan as a missionary country, unless the Roman Catholic
religion is established in it? — If by that is meant established by
being connected with the state, I do not know it ; but having,
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 273
from unfortunate circumstances, more knowledge upon these
points than laymen generally have, I conceive, that if what I
call an Emancipation Bill passed, at that moment the right
which the Pope has upon a missionary country would totally
cease ; there would not be the least pretext for continuing it,
and I believe all the Catholic clergy in Ireland would be anxious
for that.
Do you happen to know whether the kingdom of the Nether-
lands is considered as a missionary country ? — I am convinced it
is not.
Prussia ? — Prussia was till lately.
You have alluded to the necessity of some concordat being
arranged with the see of Rome ? — Merely to arrange the origi-
nal right of nomination from the Pope himself.
Do you think that such an arrangement with the see of Rome
would more easily be effected after the measure of Roman
Catholic emancipation had passed, than it would before it? —
Most certainly after. I take it that government would not find
the least difficulty in making that arrangement after emanci-
pation : the present state of Ireland brings the Catholics into
a kind of a corporate capacity : they act as a body by reason of
the compression ; if emancipation took place, there would be a
total end to that, and we would mix in all the grades of society
without distinction ; and as there certainly is a most unaffected
desire on our parts to become king's subjects, I do not think
the government would have the least difficulty in being satisfied
upon these points after emancipation.
In other countries, where concordats have been made by the
Pope, have they not been contemporaneous with the settlement
of other branches of the question? — I believe not; I think, in
general, in other states the civil rights were first conceded; I
may be mistaken upon this, but whatever the precedents may be
in that way, and however valuable we lawyers may consider
precedents, I am sure I know enough of the Irish Catholics, to
know that there would be great difficulties thrown in the way
before emancipation, and I will venture to pledge myself, that
there would be none at all afterwards.
Do you think there would be any difficulty on the part of the
court of Rome ? — In the court of Rome I believe you would
find great facility, because you would find from the Catholic
clergy themselves great facilities ; and the two Roman Catholic
archbishops that would be nearest to government, are both gen-
tlemen who are disposed to facilitate any thing that is deemed
wise by the government of the country, if it could be done
without interfering with what they consider their duty, I was
asked a question respecting the state of things in the Nether-
274 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
lands ; I believe there are several unsettled points in the
Netherlands.
When a Catholic see is vacant, in what manner is that at
present filled up ? — In some of the sees there has been a rude
continuation of the deans and chapters ; those are now asserting
their rights to originate the nomination ; and in every instance
that they have asserted it, I believe it has been allowed at
Rome. Where there are not deans and chapters, an election
by parish priests has been very much the recent practice ; and
wherever they have elected, if the neighbouring bishops concur,
that nomination has been received at Rome, and confirmed.
Is that a practice of recent date ? — Of recent date ; eight or
ten years.
Is it the general practice now in Ireland ? — The consulting of
parish priests is becoming a very general practice now in Ire-
land among the Catholics, as to the original nomination.
Is not the interference of the Pope in original nomination,
whether under the idea of its being a missionary country or
otherwise, an unpopular thing with the clergy of Ireland ? — It
is quite an unpopular thing among both clergy and laity in
Ireland.
Do you not think in that respect they are under the same
feelings that the English Catholics were before the Reforma-
tion, in guarding against the encroachments of the See of Rome ?
— All the Catholic clergy and laity in Ireland, except those
that expect special favour would, in my opinion, be quite unani-
mous in having that nomination taken away, as far as it can be
done consistently with our religious principles.
If the government of the country were desirous of giving the
Pope effectual power of originating nominations in Ireland,
would they not find it almost impossible to do so ? — They would
find it extremely difficult to do it ; they would find it very
strongly opposed by Catholics in Ireland ; I should myself op-
pose it as far as 1 possibly could ; and if I thought I made
myself master of the doctrines of the Catholic church upon this
subject, if I found that I could safely oppose it completely, I
would not submit to it.
Are not references frequently made to the Pope, in questions
which arise between the clergy and the bishops ? — Yes ; in cases
purely ecclesiastical and spiritual, the Pope is the supreme head
of the Catholic church, to whom the appeal in those cases lies,
in all questions of controversy between the priests and the
bishops ; when a bishop censures a priest, if the priest con-
ceives that censure unfounded, he has an appeal to the imme-
diate superior, to the archbishop, and if he does not get relief
from the archbishop, he has an appeal to Rome, and they do
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 275
appeal ; and I have known instances where a priest has thus
appealed with success ; if the bishop alters the parish, or takes
away any right the priest may conceive himself entitled to, he
has that appeal.
Have you known it occur where the boundary of the parish
has been altered ? — Yes, I have ; a Mr. Moriarty, a priest in
Kerry, a very near relation of mine, was bishop of Kerry, and
thought it right to alter the parishes by subdividing them ; Mr.
Moriarty appealed to Rome, and appealed successfully, and he
compares his bishop to Bonaparte : he said he wanted to Bona-
partise his diocese.
Have you not known references made also in cases of mar-
riage, in questions arising respecting the marriage of parties ?
— There are questions of marriages within the prohibited de^
grees, that certainly do arise, and may be conveyed to Rome,
and from information, I should say are conveyed to Rome ; and
those questions are standing at present, ana would make un-
pleasant points arise upon ejectments by children : they ought
to be settled by law.
Are not those references to Rome unpleasant and unpopular ?
• — They would be very unpopular if they were not upon mere
spiritual questions ; but they are a resource against ecclesiasti-
cal tyranny or misconduct, and in that view are not unpo-
pular.
In cases of excommunication are they not sometimes resorted
to ? — Every Catholic is apprized, that any excommunication for
any thing that is not religious, is itself a void excommunication ;
but if there did occur a case of excommunication where it was a
spiritual matter, the appeal would lie to Rome ; to the bishop
from the priest, from the bishop to the archbishop, and from
the archbishop to Rome.
In the case of a marriage within the degrees that your church
forbids, and that the Protestant church allows, the Roman Ca-
tholic priest would consider his parishioner as living in a state
of sin, if he cohabited with a person with whom a marriage had
been celebrated within those degrees, and in a spiritual point of
view he would endeavour to restrain him from doing so ; but
with respect to the issue of the marriage, which the Protestant
church acknowledges as a lawful one, would not every person
of your religion consider that the issue was entitled to succeed,
according to the laws of the country ? — Certainly ; and upon an
ejectment they certainly would recover ; so much so, that if the
parties themselves were not cognizant of their relationship, and
if mischief was to follow from it, I do not think the Catholic
clergy would disturb them, by obtruding the information they
had not before them : I know that occurred in a most horrible
T 2
276 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
instance with the late Dr. Troy ; there was a woman wl
a child at the age of fifteen, and the child was taken to the
Charter school ; and it happened, that at the age of four or five
and thirty years she married a very young man, and it turned
out to be her own son : Dr. Troy became acquainted with the
fact, and the result was, that he did not inform them of it ; she
died soon after, but there was quite time enough for him to
inform her of it, but he thought it was better not, for fear of
the consequences.
Do you know the circumstances under which the college of
Clongowes, is called a Jesuit establishment ? — The order of
Jesuits is restored in the Catholic church ; a man has as much a
right to be a Jesuit in Ireland as to be a lawyer there ; they
had property, they were Irishmen, and they preferred vesting
that property in Ireland, for the education of the Irish
youth.
Is the establishment of the regular order of Jesuits ? — I
believe so ; at least, so I understand ; there are superiors, there
are priests of the order, there are novices, and there are lay
brothers ; I take it to be a regular Jesuit establishment.
Are they in connexion with any establishments in foreign
countries ? — They are in connexion with the Jesuits at Stoney-
hurst, in this country ; but they are in connexion as any of the
orders of friars in the Catholic church are ; in the Catholic
church all the friars have their spiritual superior at Rome, and
their immediate superior in Ireland, or whatever country they
are in throughout Europe ; it is so in every country, Catholic
and Protestant, where there are friars.
Are they under any general of the order ? — Yes ; every order
of friars is under a general ; the Jesuits certainly have a gene-
ral, and so have the Carmelites of the two orders in Ireland,
and so have the Franciscans of the two orders in Ireland, and
the Augustinians in Ireland, and the Dominicans in Ireland ;
the only order in Ireland that has not a general in Rome, are
the education monks ; they have no general at Rome, as I
believe.
Can they confer, and do they confer upon young men the
order of Jesuit ? — I am convinced they do receive them into the
Tfrder ; they go through their novitiates, and they make their
vows. In the female convents a profession is displayed, and
people go to see the reception of n novice, and her taking her
vows. It is not made a sight of in the convents of men ; but
the process is pretty much the same in both.
Is a Jesuit admitted to orders in the Roman Catholic church,
mriute ordinis ? — No ; the bishop must be satisfied that he is a
fit person.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 277
The claims of the Jesuits, in that respect, have been resisted ?
— I do not believe they were ever yielded to in Ireland.
Were they ever assented to in Ireland ? — I do not know, I
never heard that they were ; whenever particular privileges
are set up by any order of the church, they are generally
resisted ; and any particular privilege would be resisted by the
bishops in Ireland. i
Would not that be a question that would be properly re-
ferred to the Pope ? — A question upon any privilege of that
sort would be properly referred to the Pope ; but I have no
doubt if the Emancipation bill passed, there is not a question
of that sort that would not be easily communicated to the
government.
Have you heard that the late Pope wished to enforce that
privilege for the Jesuits in England ? — I have not heard that ;
but I think I may venture to say, that it has not been attempted
in Ireland, or I should have heard of it.
Is not there an establishment for the education of priests in
Kilkenny ? — I am convinced there is ; the foundation of May-
nooth is by no means sufficient, in my judgment, for the edu-
cation of Catholic clergy in Ireland ; the bishops have found it
necessary to have a seminary for the education of priests them-
selves. There is one, I believe, in Kilkenny : there is one, I
know, in Kerry ; there is one, I know, in Cork. I am not ap-
prized that there is one in Limerick, or in Clare ; I believe
there is one in Limerick ; there is one certainly at Carlow.
Those are under the regulation of the bishops, and not of
any particular order ? — Precisely so ; there is a distinction in
the Catholic church between secular and regular clergy. The
parish priests, and those educated at Maynooth, are all of the
class of secular clergy ; the friars and monks are all called re-
gular clergy.
Are the numbers limited in those colleges ? — Limited only
by the means.
Can you state at all what is the number educated throughout
Ireland ? — I cannot ; there is a constant demand for Irish priests
from England and America, and the West Indies ; and wher-
ever the English language is spoken they are extremely anxious
to get Irish priests.
The establishments you last mentioned, are for a younger
order of persons than those at Maynooth ? — The bishops desire
as much as they can, before they send any of their priests
into parishes, to have them pass some time at Maynooth ; but
Maynooth not being sufficient, I know several that were never
even at Maynooth ; they were merely educated in the diocesan
seminary.
Do you not think it very important, that persons, who are
>ANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
candidates for orders in the Roman Catholic church, should be
very early brought from their homes, and put in places of edu-
cation, where they are under habits of discipline ?— Certainly ;
till lately, they were almost all of them children of a very low
class, but now there are many of the gentry becoming priests ;
there are many events that contributed to a tendency to increase
the number of the children of gentry disposed to become priests.
Do you know any thing of a class of persons, who went about
the country, young boys, who called themselves poor scholars,
boys who were to be educated as Catholic priests? — Yes; at
present I take it that all that do it are impostors, and ill con-
ducted impostors ; formerly there was a numerous class that
begged its way to some education, by this means, and having
acquired a knowledge of Greek and Latin sufficient, were or-
dained when they attained the age of twenty-three years and
some months, and they then went to the Burses as they were
called in France; at present, I take all of the class of poor
scholars to be impostors.
Can you state, what class of persons the Catholic priests
educated at Maynooth, and at those diocesan schools, are? —
They are mostly the children of peasants or small farmers ; but
latterly several gentry are becoming priests ; there are a good
many of them now in Maynooth.
Do not you think an arrangement, for making a provision for
the Roman Catholic clergy, would be much calculated to raise
the order of priests ? To introduce children of a wealthier class
certainly ; but, perhaps, not a better class. Those young men,
when they get education, the cultivation has the same effect upon
them, as it would have if they had been born of higher parents.
They make, at present, excellent and exemplary priests.
In your opinion, if emancipation was granted as a condition
to the clergy being paid by government, would it not produce
the effect of a better description of persons becoming candidates
for the priesthood? — If by better is meant, as I suppose it is, a
wealthier class, it certainly would have that tendency, and a
useful tendency for the purposes of government I take it, be-
cause they would not be so much under the influence of very low
people, as they necessarily are, when all their relations are in
the lowest stage of society.
They would be an important link in the chain of society? —
I think they would be a very important and useful one.
Are you acquainted with the Catholic college at Car low ?-
I know that a college exists, and I know the superiors of it.
They educate for the priesthood altogether, that is, a person
may be appointed a priest from that college? — Yes, a man may
be ordained, as many are, who never were beyond the seminary
of Carlow, as I believe.
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 279
Do you know the expense incurred by a young person, who
goes through that college ? — I cannot furnish the Committee
with any calculation upon that subject.
Are you aware, whether the secular clergy in Ireland, are at
all assisted by the regular clergy in the performance of their
duty ? — Yes; the secular clergy of Ireland, in the towns par-
ticularly, can never do half, or a third of the duties, without the
regular clergy ; for example, in the parish in which I live in
Dublin, I myself, and my family, hear mass every Sunday, at
a friary in Clarendon-street ; and the greater part of the
Catholics of property in that parish, hear mass at that friary ;
there are probably, every Sunday, near 1,000 persons who go
to communion at that friary alone ; now but for that friary, the
parish chapel would never be sufficient for the numbers that de-
sire to go to communion.
Can you state, from your own knowledge, the difference that
exists in the Catholic church, between monks and friars? — The
distinction I take to be exactly this ; we have in Ireland what
are called education monks, a certain class that are of novel in-
stitution ; I will put those for the present out of my answer to
the question. A friar, in its present definition, signifies a person
belonging to an order bound by a vow of poverty. The monks
have large estates and fortunes. A friar, properly speaking,
neither he nor his convent could have any property, some of
them are supported by mere mendicity, and there are certain
mendicant orders, but all those who are supported by charity
in any way are of the orders of friars, having taken the vow of
poverty. The monks, some of them took the vow of personal
poverty, but the order was rich; others were neither bound to
poverty personally, nor by their order.
Is not the assistance which the priests derive from the monastic
orders, in the performance of their duty, chiefly afforded by that
class of individuals called friars? — In Ireland it is, there is no
other class in Ireland; the Augustinians, properly speaking, *
were not friars, they were canons regular of the order of St. ; «
Augustine ; most of the convents in Ireland belonged to the
order of St. Augustine, and that order has been continued, but
they are now supported as the friars are in Ireland : they are all
perfectly ready to assist the secular priests in their duties.
Are not the convents in which females are, very numerous
throughout Ireland, and very wealthy?— There are several of
them ; they are not to say very wealthy, but they all can sup-
port themselves, and their wealth is increasing, because each
lady who comes into a convent is obliged to bring a certain sum,
as three or four hundred pounds ; now that money is not con-
sumed, but becomes capital, and the interest of it supports the
280 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
convent ; the consequence is, that as time rolls over them the
amount of their capital is accumulating.
Do you know the Ursuline convent in Cork? — Very well.
Can you state, from general report, what the amount of
wealth of that convent is? — I know the convent quite well, but
could not make any calculation of that ; they have lately bought,
outside of the city of Cork, a very handsome domain, which
they are enclosing with a very high wall and gardens, and build-
ing wings to the house that was upon that domain ; they edu-
cate the Catholic young ladies of Ireland in great numbers, it
is a favourite place of education for the young ladies.
You did not hear of their offering a sum to the amount of
30,000/. for the purchase of an estate? — No; I did not hear of
that offer, but I should not be surprised to hear that, between
the money brought in by nuns, and the great accumulation of
profits upon education, which to them are very considerable, for
the nuns themselves teach all the arts, and every thing but
dancing, and then they live upon very little.
Is their object confined exclusively to the education of females ?
The Ursuline convent in Cork is exclusively confined to the
education of females ; besides the duties of the nuns themselves,
which are purely religious.
Is not that the case in all other female convents about Ire-
land?— The other convent in Cork, which I believe is called
Poor Clares, educate the pooT children in great numbers, and
I believe that they educate young boys ; they have an immense
number of poor children, I know, that they educate.
The question referred to the Ursuline order generally? — The
Ursuline order in Ireland is generally confined to the education
of the upper classes, but wherever there is not another convent
of females to educate the poor females gratis, they always
establish a school to educate the poor females; wherever there
is a second convent it takes that duty, they only educate the
wealthier classes.
Do all the female convents educate gratis throughout the
Country ? — No ; the Ursuline convent in Cork does not educate
gratis, they educate Catholic young ladies and are paid.
You state, that the mode in which the wealth of the convents
has arisen, is from the money each person pays in coming into
the convent, which is vested as capital; can you tell the Com-
mittee from whence they get the interest, or how that money
is vested in order to pay interest ? — Formerly they used to lay it
out in landed property, latterly it has been in bank stock or
government securities.
Are the Jesuits and Augustinians the principal orders esta-
blished in Ireland? — They are the principal, orders that are
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 281
established in Ireland ; there are Carmelites of two orders in
Ireland, the shod and unshod Carmelites ; the Dominicans and
Franciscans of two orders, at the least ; I believe some Bene-
dictines, but I will not say positively, but those that I have
mentioned, I know of.
In case the Emancipation Bill was carried, is there any pros-
pect of any opulent Catholics now resident on the Continent,
returning to Ireland with their property? — That I have heard,
but I know that if emancipation be delayed, some very wealthy
Catholics will carry their property out of Ireland ; I know in-
stances where they are preparing to do it, urged by the greater
acrimony of modern times, and getting weary of the contest.
What is your opinion with respect to the sentiments entertained
by the lower orders of the Catholics, in reference to the penal
laws? — The opinion is universal, that they are governed by force,
and that those who administer the law, are in an attitude of
constant hostility against them, and there is a perpetual hatred
amongst them against the governing powers. Its effect is to
indispose them to every act of the government ; and when a man
is punished, his friends console themselves by considering it an
act of violence and injustice, instead of being the administration
of law towards him.
Are they generally acquainted and sensible of the disability
they labour under? — They are quite sensible of it, and if they
want to be reminded of it at all, wherever there are Protestants
in their neighbourhood of their own class, they are reminded of
it by the greater advantages of being Protestants which they
see; and if there be any thing at all of the Orange in their
neighbourhood, that reminds them still more strongly of it.
Would the passing of the Emancipation Bill produce
amongst them any general feeling of satisfaction ? — I am quite
sure that I am not consulting the interests of the Catholic gentry,
when I say that I am certain it would create great satisfaction
among them, the links of society act upon each other down to
the remotest part of the chain; and if Catholics were emancipated,
they would be in their various stations according to their talents
and merit, as Protestants are, and then the patronage of every
kind would become equally distributable through the country,
distributable from those individuals who are connected with the
government through the country, and as soon as that occurred,
the line of distinction that is so marked now, of keeping the
patronage in one class, would be completely effaced, the effect
would be that the people and the government would become
reconciled to each other.
Would the removal of the civil disabilities contribute to
diminish the popular disorders and disturbances that have pre-
282 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
vailed? — I am sure they would very much, at present every
oppression comes upon them with a double aspect ; it is oppres-
sion in itself and oppression from an enemy ; although I have
never attributed the disturbances of Ireland merely to the want
of emancipation, I am quite sure that the want of emancipation
aggravates every thing of that kind, and consequently taking that
want away would take away so much of the evil.
You are then decidedly of opinion, that the removal of the
disabilities would lead to the diminishing or getting rid
altogether of that great practical evil, the disposition of the
people to embark in disturbance ? — I am sure it would very
much facilitate the return to tranquillity; by itself it would not
tranquillize Ireland, but without it I do not think you can ever
have Ireland perfectly tranquil ; with it you would be making
great progress towards tranquillity, with the prospect of arriving
at it ; and one of its best effects perhaps would be, that it would
put an end to the irritation prevailing between the various
sects.
Would it tend to diminish the religious animosities that exist?
— Most certainly ; I take it emancipation would completely ex-
tinguish those, for I have always perceived that when Catholics
and Protestants of a liberal class come to know each other
personally, the animosity diminishes even by personal know-
ledge.
Is not that the case in the county of Kerry very much ?-i-In
the county of Kerry there is no animosity almost ; there is
scarcely a trace of it, with the exception of Tarbert, where there
was a kind of hotbed for it ; it is unknown in Kerry.
Does not a very strong feeling exist, and is not a mode of
reasoning very prevalent among the people, that though it does
not immediately affect the people themselves, still no children of
theirs, however talented, can ever obtain the immunities of
state ? — People perceive that very well, and calculate upon it
among themselves, and their pothouse politicians do not fail to
tell them so ; they remember some of the first names in Ireland
having been the sons of peasants like themselves, and they know
that every office and station and situation in the state is open to
the child of a Protestant, and that none practically are open to
them.
Do those disabilities contribute to retard the progress of
internal improvement in Ireland? — Very much, because they
aggravate the evils which otherwise exist, and continuing them
will tend to perpetuate that system of disturbance which of
course prevent manufactures from settling and capital from
coming in, and frighten away the gentry.
Does it not mainly contribute to render the state of security
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 283
of property imperfect in Ireland ? — Certainly it contributes to
perpetuate disturbance.
Does not a very strong sympathy exist in the minds of a
great proportion of the Protestant population with their Ca-
tholic countrymen, in consequence of those priveleges not being
granted to them? — Great and strong in the south of Ireland; a
very large class of Protestants, a great majority of the Pro-
testants are sincerely and unaffectedly anxious for the emanci-
pation of the Catholics ; indeed, with the exception of some of
the more violent of a particular class of dissenters, and of those
persons that are immediately connected with, and have a per-
sonal interest in continuing the system, the Protestants in the
south in general, with a few exceptions, are desirous of Catholic
emancipation, as far as my knowledge has gone.
In point of fact, from your intercourse with Protestants*
which has been very general in the south of Ireland, have you
not discovered that a great majority of the Protestants of the
south are favourable to what is callecl Catholic emancipation ? —
I have no doubt at all of it.
Do you mean unconditional emancipation, or an arrangement
with the Catholics, by which emancipation might be granted to
them ? — I do not think the protestants enter into that detail
much ; a great part of the Protestants are for emancipation in
such a way as the government would arrange it, having (those
who are best informed) no fears at all of the consequence ; there
are others that entertain apprehensions, and therefore would
require what are called securities ; there are others again that
would not emancipate us upon any terms.
Do you think the majority of Protestants who are favourable
to Catholic emancipation prefer, or rather would approve, of
only conditional emancipation? — No, I do not, in my own
experience, except such conditions as I myself would be
very anxious to see accompany emancipation ; that is, such con-
ditions as would connect the Catholics and Catholic clergy with
the government, precisely as the Protestants are connected with
it ; so that there should be no longer distinctions between one
portion of the subjects and the other, either among themselves,
or with relation to the government.
For instance, a provision for the Catholic clergy, and a certain
control to the government in the appointment of that clergy ? —
As to the appointment of the clergy, a difficulty arises which
Catholics would not accede to ; there are scarcely any of the
Protestants of education in the south of Ireland, that say there
shall never be emancipation.
In the late disturbances in the counties of Cork and Limerick,
and in parts of Tipperary, were not the attacks as generally
284 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
directed against Roman Catholic gentlemen as against Protes-
tants ? — Certainly they were ; and in many instances, the people
that were murdered were Catholics ; in most of the instances.
Do you think that any more apprehension prevails in the
minds of those Protestants, than in the minds of the respectable
part of the Catholics, as to any consequences that may arise
from disturbances in the country ? — Certainly not ; the Catho-
lics of property have been equally anxious to put down those
disturbances, and where I have known of it, to say the least,
equally efficient.
Can you give the Committee any information as to the course
of education pursued at Maynooth college? — I can inform the
Committee, that the course is published ; and that for a few
pence, or at least a few shillings, the syllabus of the course of
education there can be had at Coyne's, in Capel-street, in
Dublin.
Is there not a very great want of books at Maynooth college?
— They complain of wanting of books ; the funds are totally
inadequate for Maynooth college ; without any disrespect, there
is what I would call a miserable penury in the way that May-
nooth college is treated.
Does that want of books interrupt the course of study, ac-
cording to the system pursued in the English universities by
books ? — It affects it materially ; but the mind of youth during
the period of study, especially at Maynooth, where they are
kept almost isolated from the world, where they are not allowed
so much as a newspaper, in point of political information, there
it is actually a want ; there is an aptitude for learning, and such
books as they have they devour in some measure, and become
masters of every thing that is within their reach ; there are four
or five or six years in human life, when the mind is fittest for the
purposes of the acquisition of knowledge ; they are at Maynooth
at that time living under a rigid discipline in point of hours,
living very temperately in point of provisions, and secluded
from the politics and pursuits of the world, much more, per-
haps, than one would reasonably imagine ; the consequence is,
that all the influences upon the human mind tend one way, to
acquiring as much knowledge as they possibly can; and the
effect of that is really most striking in Ireland, with respect to
the young priests educated at Maynooth.
Is the want of books supplied by very copious and lengthened
oral discourses ? — They do still dictate lectures, which the young
men take down ; and that is a most clumsy and tedious mode of
education ; at least, so I understand.
Then you cannot say whether those lectures ever go beyond
the mere dry course of theological studies ; whether they em-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 285
brace political discussions at all ? — Certainly not ; politics are
totally excluded from Maynooth.
By politics, you mean the politics of the day ? — The politics
of the day ; political economy, it would be quite a treat to a
youth there to be allowed to study.
Newspapers, you say, are not allowed? — Quite excluded
from the young men ; I have a nephew, who intends to be a
priest, at Maynooth, and when he comes to my house at Dub-
lin, it is a great treat to him to be allowed to go over the news-
papers, four or five or six weeks old.
Are they allowed to mix with gentlemen and others residing
in the neighbourhood ? — Not at all.
Then are the Committee right in supposing, that Maynooth
college has very much the appearance of a very strict monastery ?
— It has a good deal of a monastic discipline. What surprises
me most, with respect to the young men educated at Maynooth,
is not that they acquire a classical and scientific knowledge, but
that they really acquire a style in the English language, that is
of a very superior order ; tney write admirably well.
Do you think, that that perfect seclusion from common life is
much calculated to improve the disposition and habits of the
gentlemen who are destined to become priests, and to fill im-
portant posts in life afterwards? — I think it is. The Com-
mittee will recollect, that celibacy is a principal feature with
respect to the Catholic clergy ; then, if at the period of life at
which those young men are educated, they were not kept se-
cluded, they never could, in my judgment, from the propen-
sities of nature, so overrule their passions, as to be able to live
a life of celibacy afterwards. I think, therefore, that that spe-
cies of seclusion is perhaps essentially necessary to the formation
of the Catholic clergy ; and I know, from those persons who are
there, particularly those I see before me every day, that it does
not at all prevent their acquiring even the manners of gentle-
men, and the courtesies of civilized life.
Do you think, that as this is said to be the age of liberality, in
so very strict a state of education as that employed at Maynooth,
that young men can imbibe those principles which they ought
to carry afterwards into life, and which renders the present age
so superior to former ages ? — My own opinion is, that there
ought to be perfect religious freedom every where ; but when
I say, that I think that indifference as to religious faith is a bad
thing, I think people ought to be perfectly cautious in selecting,
and perfectly sincere in professing a religious faith, and with
these notions I am anxious to see the priesthood deeply imbued
with the importance of their station and situation in life ; and
I look to the solemn, marked and religious education of a priest
DANIEL O'COVXF.LL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
as a great good in society. I do not think there is any practi-
cal evil at all from it ; the liberality of the present age has done
away, in my judgment, the possibility of any of those gloomy
superstitions, that would be laughed out of society at present ;
and after all, perhaps, we hear more of them in romances than
existed in any state of society.
Do not you think those gloomy superstitions are very likely
to be imbibed in so close and strict an education as that at May-
nooth ? — I have no such fears.
What is to counteract it? — -Science, while they are there,
because they go through a course of natural and scientific phi-
losophy, and they mix in their recreations with the world.
Again, the very keeping awav books from them makes them
more anxious for them when the restraint is removed.
Is there any prohibition upon the course of their studies,
when they leave Maynooth for their vacations, or when they
leave Maynooth to visit their friends ? — I am convinced, none
except the general one against any work tending to immorality,
and in particular those works that would excite ideas of impu-
rity, against which there is a particular caution, and a necessary
one, for the kind of life they are leading. I know an immense
number of priests that have" been educated there, and there is
not a tinge about them of that species of superstition ; and the
children of exceedingly vulgar people, you would be surprised
if you met them in society, to see how completely the manners,
and almost the tone, of genteel society, they had acquired.
In the event of what is called Catholic emancipation being
granted, the Committee presume you would think the present
sum that is annually voted for Maynooth totally inadequate to
the purpose ? — I am quite convinceci it is totally inadequate at
the present ; and I venture to say that, without emancipation,
there is great danger by reason of this inadequacy, because
there is a greater temptation to have Catholic priests educated
in France, which is a growing evil to my own knowledge.
Are you able to inform the Committee of the comparative
expense of education at Maynooth, and at the Burses in France?
— No, I am not.
Is it not less in France ? — I am quite convinced it is less in
France.
Then the efiect of increasing foreign education is rather to in-
duce the lower class of the community to enter into the pi
hood ? — It would be one tendency, certainly.
The Committee wish to know whether it is your decided
opinion, that the objections that Iiave been raised by many Pro-
testants in Ireland to Catholic emancipation, have greatly les-
sened within the last ten or twenty years, ajxl that the objec-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 237
tions to that measure, on the part of the Protestants, are much
weaker than they have been ? — I think they are weaker now
among the Protestants in general ; however, the mutual calum-
nies, as I hope they are, upon each other, of the Orange party
and the Catholics, have more exasperated the Catholics, and
also the Orangemen ; and I think latterly there has been vio-
lence against us amongst the Orangemen ; but among the Pro-
testants there is less apprehension than formerly. I know of
my own knowledge, that the Catholic Association has won upon
a great number of Protestants, particularly in Dublin.
Do you not think that with respect to Orangemen, as you
would define them, and Catholics, there is a natural action and
re-action? — Oh, certainly; faults on both sides, in my opi-
nion.
The Orangemen probably entertain a very improper notion
of the Catholics ; and some Catholics entertain very improper
notions of Orangemen ? — Yes, I am sure it is so ; and one of the
beneficial results of emancipation would be, to put an end to
that mutual action and re-action.
Do not you think that without emancipation, the exasperation
arising from that action and re-action might be greatly lessened,
by both parties abstaining from violent language ? — I am sure
it might ; but in point of fact, I am convinced it never will
without emancipation ; the Orangemen have a personal interest,
many of them, in excluding the Catholics, as any man has an
interest in monopoly. The Catholics, on the other hand, wish
to share in the benefit of the tilings so monopolized ; and when
you add to individual interest religious zeal, when those both
run in the same channel, they make so powerful a current, that
it would be very hard to stop it.
Do you think that it is possible that that good will, which
all wish to see in Ireland, can exist so long as the Orange lodges
exist, and Catholics are excluded from being Orangemen ? — I
think that alone would continue the ill will ; I think that if the
Catholics were emancipated, and the Orange lodges continued in
their present system, that however loyal a Catholic may be, he
could be admitted. As for example, the case of the Earl of
Fingal, who fought the rebels in the year 1798, if he still were
excluded from any society for his religion, that alone would per-
petuate the animosity ; and if the Catholics formed a similar
society, it would have the same effect.
I- the general impression in Ireland, that no Protestant
who ever has been a Roman Catholic, is admitted into the
Orange societies/ — It is; and I believe that impression is
founded upon fact thus far, that in the original oaths of the
288 DANIEL o'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Orangemen, there is something to that effect, that he is not, nor
ever was, a Roman Catholic.
If Catholic emancipation were granted, do you think there
would be any objection to raising the qualification of voters ? —
I doubt whether it be a desirable measure, but it is quite ano-
ther question, whether so much liberty being purchased by
emancipation, it would be right for the Catholics to make a
stand upon the forty-shilling freeholds ; as an individual, my
own wish would be, to extend the franchise as far as I possibly
could to every one.
As a general principle ? — Yes ; I know the system of forty-
shilling freeholds is full of abuses, and with the extreme num-
ber of oaths with which it has been loaded, creates great per-
jury. I am myself a parliamentary reformer upon principle.
In point of fact, generally speaking, forty-shilling freeholders
of Ireland exercise no freedom of election whatever ? — Generally
speaking, in many districts they do not ; in cities they do de-
cidedly exercise a freedom of election, and I have known them
to exercise it, as far as my experience went, in cities with great
disinterestedness and at great personal sacrifices ; in counties, in
general, they do not, for they become part of the live stock of a
great estate.
Do you think they can set any value upon a franchise, in the
exercise of which they are so constrained? — It is valuable to
them, notwithstanding ; for even in an estate where they are
very much in the power of the landlord, the landlord is obliged,
to a certain extent, to use the phrase I did before, to court
them ; and it is of value to an Irish peasant in the south, to get
a tenure of land, and to have a life in his lease.
Do you know the system that is in general pursued, of order-
ing electors into the hustings ? — I do, and condemn it very
much.
Is it not by a note from the bailiff, as he is called in the north,
or the driver in the south ? — Yes, it is done in that way ;
there are great abuses in the system of regulations ; it produces
great perjury, but if those abuses, particularly the perjury,
could be done away, in that case I should be sorry to see the
forty -shilling freeholds abolished ; although I do not mean to
contend, that as a condition of emancipation, some arrangement
might not take place upon that subject.
In the parts of the county you are most conversant with, do
not you think that a moderate raising of the qualification would
equally benefit Catholics and Protestants? — I rather think, that
by raising the qualification, you would raise the Roman Ca-
tholic influence in most of the counties in the south of Ireland,
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 289
because the forty-shilling freeholder is much more the property
of his landlord, than the 51. or the Wl. freeholder would be;
and as the greater part of the estates in fee are in the hands of
Protestants, the consequence is, that with the forty-shilling Ca-
tholic freeholders, the Protestant landlord has really an influ-
ence ; whereas the 51. or \0l. freeholder would be more inde-
pendent, and more likely to follow the bent of his own incli-
nation.
Then, in that way, it would be acceptable to the Catholic
population of Ireland ? — If we were emancipated, the question
politically between Catholic and Protestant would, in my mind,
be at an end ; but, if we were to continue unemancipated, if it
were understood as distinctly as I understand it, it ought, for
those reasons, to be acceptable to the Catholics.
Do you think, that Catholic freeholders, or indeed freehold-
ers in any part of Ireland, are proud of their franchise? — Yes,
certainly, they all feel its advantages ; it is the first step to-
wards not being exactly slaves ; it mitigates every part of the
system.
In your own case, as possessing a landed estate, do you find
that those persons who have leases for lives on your property
will go to the mere trifling expense of one shilling, which is the
sum allowed by law, to register their freeholds, without which
registry they cannot vote ? — Yes, they would, if I did not get
them registered.
Do you believe, that is the general habit throughout Ireland?
— I do ; I know instances where persons have had freeholds
acquired by remaining upon common land upwards of twenty
years ; and they have, at their own expense, unless somebody
has done it for them, been quite ready to get them registered.
Does not that differ entirely from the nature of a common
freehold interest in Ireland; is not that a freehold in itself? —
It is a fee-simple, but it shews that there is an anxiety on the
part of the peasant, to have the advantage of being a free-
holder.
Do you think, that at present in principle, the elective fran-
chise can be said to be a franchise, when it. depends upon so
many circumstances that would prevent it being a franchise ;
for instance, there is the necessity of registering every seven
years ; if he does not register every seven years, he loses his
freehold? — It is excessively clogged in Ireland, certainly.
Do you think that that in principle is a franchise ? — There
still remains the franchise in principle ; but in practice very
much qualified by the regulations ; to a lawyer it is quite fa-
miliar, that, whenever you set about mending a thing by Act of
Parliament, you increase the other mischiefs tenfold, unless the
290 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
simple plan be taken of beginning by repealing every thing
that went before, and making your entire system in one Act of
Parliament.
Do you think, that the population in Ireland, of the lower
class of freeholders, would be satisfied to renounce what they
consider an advantage, without any advantage being given them
in return ?— They certainly would not ; and I should take it to
be an excessively dangerous experiment to set about taking that
right from the forty-shilling freeholders generally, without
doing something first to conciliate them.
Do you not think, that it might be easily brought home to
their understandings, that Catholic emancipation being granted,
was a full remuneration for such loss? — -My own opinion is,
that it might easily be done so, more especially if the qualifica-
tion was not made too high in the first instance, and leaving to
the present class their right during the remainder of their
lease.
Do you think that any good effects would arise from
raising the elective franchise, laying aside all party feeling ? —
Good effects in the abolition of perjury and frauds; but my
own opinion is strongly in favour of extending the right of
voting.
Could it be extended in Ireland? — It could be extended every
where, upon principles that to my mind appear the principles
of the constitution and of justice.
Do you think that there would be any well-grounded appre-
hension of discontent in consequence of it ? — I think if the
elective franchise was taken away from the forty-shilling free-
holders, without satisfactory emancipation, there would be well-
grounded apprehensions.
In the event of Catholic emancipation being granted, you
think ^there would not be ?•— I think if a satisfactory act of
emancipation was granted, it would be very easy to avoid all
peril upon that subject.
Do not you think the feeling the Catholics would have upon
the removal of what they consider a stigma upon their religion,
would be that that was a greater benefit to them than any
benefit they derive from the elective franchise ? — I am sure
they would consider it so. I do not think there is a people
in the world more disposed than the Irish to enter into that view
of it.
What effect do you think would be produced upon the Pro-
testant freeholders, who would be disfranchised in the same way
as the Catholics, but who would have no such compensation for
their loss, as the Catholics would have? — My opinion is, that
the Protestant freeholders would consider such an act as an un-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 291
qualified grievance upon them ; nor do I think there are any
means of reconciling them to it.
Are they not very few in comparison with the Catholics ? — In
the north, I apprehend they are numerous ; I do not see how
the Protestant freeholders of the north could be reconciled to
it, unless by gentlemen possessing influence convincing them
that there was some equivalent given to them, by increasing the
general Protestant interest in Parliament, against the particular
Catholic interests which would be promoted.
If they considered that the carrying the question of emanci-
pation, had a great effect in increasing the tranquillity of the
country and removing the evils which affect Ireland, would not
that be considered an equivalent ? — I should suppose it would ;
because it ought to influence every fair mind, ana therefore the
Protestant forty-shilling freeholders would be as likely to be
satisfied for any thing that is reasonable, as the Catholic free-
holders.
How do the laws stand in regard to Catholic charities? — The
law as to the Catholic charities in Ireland, I take to have been,
by a recent decision, favourable to them to a certain extent ;
there has been a decision, that a bequest for performing masses,
is not an illegal bequest, but the Commissioners of charitable
donations and bequests in Ireland being all Protestants, and
having a power to litigate any charity they please, and whether
they are successful or unsuccessful, tney are entitled to the full
costs of that litigation ; that terrifies Catholics from making
charitable bequests, who otherwise would. It would be quite
right in any bill of emancipation, to regulate that.
With regard to money given for building schools, or glebe-
houses or chapels, is there still a practical difficulty in the way of
any person who wishes so to dispose of his property ? — I do not
think there is any difficulty, that an experienced lawyer might
not easily obviate ; there are difficulties with respect to trustees,
who may not be so easily compelled to execute those trusts ;
but in practice, what we do is, to vest the property in six or
seven trustees, and as soon as one of those die, or two or three,
then the survivors nominate new trustees, so as to make up the
original number; by that means continuing the property in
joint tenantcy, going to the survivors, in whom a personal con-
fidence, from their character, is reposed ; there is no danger of
the intervention of heirs or executors, who would not be likely
to perform the trusts; and it is by that scheme that Catholic
charities are at present protected : but as that scheme requires
a personal confidence, it is of course liable to abuse, and it is
inconvenient, inasmuch as it creates expense, and creates trouble,
and renders it necessary to have machinery to carry it on,
u 2
292 HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED.
wherever things of that kind occur, and naturally retards the
progress of charity.
Then you are of opinion, it would be desirable to have the
law made more clear and satisfactory than it at present is ?
—I do think it would ; it is a very delicate subject to meddle
with, and had better be reserved, if there were an Emancipation
Bill, entirely for a subsequent consideration.
Martis 8° die Martii, 1825.
LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON IN THE CHAIR.
Hugh O^Connor, Esquire, called in ; and Examined.
WHAT is your situation in life, and where do you reside ?. —
I reside in Mountioy-square, Dublin ; I was in trade, a merchant,
but I have retired now from trade ; I retired last year.
In what branch of trade have you been concerned? — In the
West Indian trade ; as a merchant, at the head of a house in the
West Indian trade.
Did you carry on business to any considerable extent ? — I be-
lieve more so than any house in the West Indian trade ; I believe
it was so considered, and I believe the fact was so.
Are you acquainted with the state of trade, and commercial
property, in the city of Dublin ? — I have a pretty general acquaint-
ance with the state of trade.
Is a considerable portion of the trade of Dublin carried on by
Roman Catholics? — Yes.
You yourself are of that persuasion ? — I am a Roman Catholic.
Can you inform the Committee, whether any Roman Catholics
are members of the Bank direction in the city of Dublin ? — None ;
nor have not been.
Have any inconveniences resulted to Roman Catholic merchants
in Dublin, in consequence of the exclusion of Roman Catholics
from the direction of the Bank ? — A great deal of inconvenience,
and a good deal of injury.
Will you have the kindness to explain what inconvenience, and
what injury, have resulted to Roman Catholic merchants, in con-
sequence of that exclusion ? — I am a Bank proprietor myself, and
when I was in trade, it would have been a great advantage to me
to have been in the Bank direction ; not that the 300/. a year salary
was any object to me, but it would have given me an insight into
the state of credit of commercial persons, which would have been
of great advantage to me as a merchant, and which insight I could
not so well get otherwise ; besides, I considered the exclusion of
HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 293
Catholics not only degrading to me individually, but to the Catholic
trading body generally ; and, as rather a large Bank proprietor, I
wished also to have some insight into the management of the concern.
Among the individuals who have been appointed to the direc-
tion of the Bank, being Protestants, are there persons who carry
on trade on a smaller scale than the Catholics, who, by the practice
at the Bank, have been excluded ? — There are some persons in
trade in the Bank direction, who carry on trade on a very small
scale indeed.
Have any efforts been made by the proprietors of the Bank, to
obtain the nomination of Roman Catholics to the Bank direction ?
— I have complained myself very much about the exclusion of
Catholic proprietors from the Bank direction ; the Bank directors
have made it a pretence, (for I consider it nothing but a pretence,)
that the law interposed the disqualification, which I know is not
the fact.
Can you state what proportion of merchants there are in the
Bank direction ? — They are nearly all merchants, or persons that
have been connected with trade ; it does not occur to me that there
is, perhaps, more than one, that either has not been in trade, or
has not been connected with it, and has had commercial experience
and knowledge.
What is the qualification in point of stock ? — £,000/. stock for
a director ; 3,000^. to be a deputy governor : and 4,000/. to be
the governor.
In whom is the choice of Bank directors vested ? — It lies with
the proprietors ; but the Bank directors make a house list, and
there is a combining and confederating amongst them, to keep up
constantly amongst themselves, when once named, monopoly of
direction, with party feeling, and to exclude Catholics from the
direction.
Are there many other Catholics in the city of Dublin, with
whom you are acquainted, who are considerable proprietors of Bank
stock ? — I know some that are considerable proprietors ; some of
the largest.
Are there any other public bodies in the city of Dublin, con-
nected with the commerce of Dublin, from which Roman Catholics
are excluded ? — There is the Ballast board I believe ; the ex-
penditure of that board, last or the preceding year, was fifty or
sixty thousand pounds, and I never heard of a Catholic being in
the direction. I know a gentleman, some years ago was mention-
ing to me, that he wished I was in the direction, but says he, no
Catholic is in the direction, or has been in the direction ; I said, I
was quite indifferent about it.
With regard to the Chamber of Commerce, which is a volun-
tary association of the merchants of Dublin, how does that stand
294 HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED.
with respect to religious distinction ? — I am not a member of the
Chamber of Commerce ; it was established last year, and I was
repeatedly solicited to be a member of it, but as I had given up
trade, I declined being a member ; I do not believe any religious
distinctions prevail there.
That association is altogether of a voluntary nature ? — I think
they are admitted there by ballot ; but when it was established last
year, it was associated voluntarily.
Within your knowledge of Dublin, have you known the wealth
of the Catholic body to increase ? — Very considerably.
Have you known any portion of that personal property which
has been accumulated by them, to be invested in the purchase of
real estate ? — Yes, I have.
Have you yourself been a purchaser ? — I have not been a pur-
chaser ; I have an estate, which was left to me by a relation of
mine, a merchant, who purchased it ; he was a partner of mine.
In any purchase which you have known take place on the part of
a Catholic, have you ever heard an objection raised, on the ground
of its having been a forfeited estate in times past ? — Never.
Would that circumstance be an objection to yourself, if you
thought it proper to vest your money in land ? — Certainly not ;
it never entered my head.
Do you consider there is a disposition at present in English
capitalists, to adventure in speculation, in Ireland ? — I see there
is a very considerable disposition.
Do you consider that the political state of Ireland, has any ten-
dency to retard such investment of English capital in that part of
the United Kingdom ?— -A very material instance of that nature,
came within my knowledge, the day before yesterday ; a gentleman,
a landed proprietor, a Member of Parliament, had nearly completed
a treaty, to borrow 50,000^. in London ; I do not know exactly
upon what terms, but however the treaty was nearly completed,
and in consequence of the bill suppressing the Catholic Association,
and the impression in the lenders mind, that the security for his
money in Ireland , under the aspect of affairs, was not such as he
would wish, he declined lending the money ; this came to my
knowledge the day before yesterday.
Was the lender a Catholic or a Protestant ? — I do not know ;
he is an English capitalist.
And the security was to be upon landed property in Ireland ? —
Upon landed property in Ireland.
Do you understand in what way the bill to which you allude,
increased the unwillingness of the lender, to advance his money ? —
He thought the security for property for an English capitalist,
would be likely to become more endangered in consequence, as he
HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 295
conceived, of the discontent being increased, through the means of
that bill.
Did he express that opinion ? — Yes, I understand so ; the bor-
rower is a nolble lord.
In what part of the country was his estate situated ; in the north,
south, east, or west ? — It is about the south-west, I think.
Did you hear him so express himself ? — I did not ; it only came
to my knowledge the day before yesterday accidentally ; a profes-
sional gentleman who was concerned in the matter, happened to
mention it accidentally the day before yesterday ; I have heard of
it since.
Are you quite sure that the objection of the lender was not
founded, upon the proceedings of the Association, rather than upon
the bill which put down that Association ?— I should suppose it
was not founded upon the proceedings of the Association, inasmuch
as the treaty was in progress when the proceedings of the Associa-
tion were in activity.
Then you consider the treaty to have broken off in consequence
of the apprehension of discontent that might be produced in Ire-
land ? — I have understood so.
Then do you consider, that every cause which has a tendency
to augment and aggravate that discontent in Ireland, tends to
check the influx of English capital into that country ? — I should
suppose so, certainly.
Can you trace that consequence to the existing disqualifying
laws on the subject of religion in Ireland ? — I should think so.
Have you any particular facts upon that subject, which support
that opinion? — I know that discontent very generally prevails
throughout the Catholic body, on account of the disqualifying laws;
it prevails from the highest Catholic peer to the humblest Catholic
peasant ; I have no doubt of it.
Is not that discontent very much connected with all the inter-
nal system of insurrection and disturbance? — I should think it
was ; but I resided in Dublin, and I know very little of the inte*
rior of Ireland. My knowledge of Irish matters (that is, from
my own actual observation) is confined to Dublin, and circum-
stances there.
Does not that discontent shew itself by those commotions that
you read of and hear of in that country ? — I think clearly.
Do not you happen to know that there is, generally speaking,
great disinclination on the part of the English capitalists to ad-
vance money upon the security of landed property in Ireland,
amounting almost to a determination not to do so ? — I have heard
so, I do not know it of my own knowledge.
Arising from a doubt of the security being good ?— -Arising
HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED.
from a doubt of the security, perhaps, as well as from other
causes.
And arising from a doubt of the tranquillity of the country? —
Considerable doubt of the tranquillity of the country.
Has it come to your knowledge 'that money is pretty freely
lent on mortgage in the north of Ireland, at four and a half per
cent ? — I have heard so ; but it has not come to my actual know-
ledge.
Have you ever served upon grand juries in Dublin ? — Never.
Have you ever been called in court to serve ? — I think I have
been summoned to the commission court : I suppose it was a
grand jury.
Have you never been called to the term grand juries ? — Never.
Are you a freeholder of the city of Dublin ? — No.
Nor a freeman ? — No.
Haye you known many Catholics summoned to serve upon the
term grand juries ? — I have not heard of any ; I heard it stated as
matter of complaint that they had not been summoned : I sup-
pose none have been summoned, for I heard it complained of
that they have not been summoned.
Are very large sums levied upon the inhabitants by the grand
juries of Dublin ? — I understand so.
Is it a matter of complaint among the Catholics, that they are
not allowed to participate in the levying of those sums, and in the
expenditure of them ? — I have heard it made matter of complaint
by Catholics.
Do you understand whether the exclusion from serving upon
term grand juries is peculiar to the Catholics? — I cannot answer
that question precisely, for I scarcely ever went to the court
myself; but I have understood it was almost entirely peculiar to
Catholics, I have heard so.
Have you ever heard, that many very wealthy Protestant gen-
tlemen are equally excluded from serving upon grand juries, with
Catholics ? — I have heard some wealthy Protestant gentlemen,
who are what are called liberal Protestants, complain that they
were treated like Catholics.
Have you heard the same of any illiberal Protestant gentlemen,
as they are called? — Never, that I recollect.
You have not any very accurate knowledge upon the subject? —
Indeed, I have not.
In point of fact, do you not know that the term grand juries
are composed of members of the corporation only ? — Yes ; I see
in the paper eight, or nine, or ten aldermen, and sheriffs, peers,
and people of that description.
Does not that exclusion of all the inhabitants of Dublin, except
those who are possessed of a corporate rank, tend to diminish the
HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 297
confidence which the public feel in the acts, whether civil or
criminal, of those grand juries? — I should think it naturally
would ; it does, in my opinion.
Have you ever attended a county election in Ireland ? — Only
once ; I have been, perhaps, twice, but only for half an hour or
so ; but I did once attend two or three days.
Where was that? — In the county of Dublin.
What description of persons, in point of property and station,
are the forty-shilling freeholders whom you then saw vote, and
whom you have seen vote on other occasions ? — I took myself,
from wnat I saw, some feeling of objection to the forty-shilling
freeholders; I rather lamented that there were that description of
freeholders.
Do you think they are in a station of life which gives any
security to the public, of a fair and independent exercise of their
franchise ? — I think they are not in that station of life that gives
such security.
In the event of a bill being carried for the emancipation of the
Catholics, as it is termed, do you conceive that it would be de-
sirable to make any alteration in the present qualification of the
freeholders ? — Very desirable, as it strikes me.
Do you conceive that such alteration would be acceptable to
the Catholics, if it formed part of a general measure of emanci-
pation ? — It seems to me, that Catholic emancipation would be so
great a boon, that I should think it would be acceptable.
Do you consider, that a proposition for altering the franchise,
without at the same time accompanying that measure with Ca-
tholic emancipation, would be attended with risk or danger? —
With both, I think.
Do you consider, that such alteration, would contribute to di-
minish the fair influence of Catholics in elections ? — From my own
knowledge, I know very little of the nature of elections ; I am
inclined to think it would not diminish the fair influence of Ca-
tholics.
To what amount would you think it advisable to raise the
qualification, from the present qualification of forty shillings ? —
I have heard, that it was proposed to raise it to ten pounds ; I
should think myself, that the lower classes of electors would think
their rights too much abridged by its being raised to ten pounds ;
I should think, that five pounds would be a better standard ; they
would consider ten pounds qualification a hardship, I should
think ; but I know very little of the nature of elections.
In the observations you have made in regard to forty-shilling
freeholders, do you apply your observations to counties at large,
or do you also apply it to cities and towns ? — I meant counties at
large.
HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED,
In point of fact, in cities and towns corporate, are there not
persons of independent personal property, who only exercise their
franchise by reason of a forty-shilling freehold ? — I can only speak
of Dublin ; I know nothing scarcely beyond Dublin ; and I
thought the qualification for a freeholder, to exercise his franchise
in Dublin, must be twenty pounds ; I have myself no freehold in
Dublin.
If any measure were adopted in places like Dublin, which
limited the freehold right, would not the effect of that be, to give
an undue and unfair preponderance to the corporate franchise of
freemen ? — I should suppose of course it would.
Would any measure that increased the corporate power of the
freemen, be a measure that would excite discontent ? — Clearly it
would; great discontent.
You possess landed property in Ireland ? — I do.
Have you yourself ever made any freeholders upon that pro-
perty ? — No, I have not.
Do you think, considering the manner in which freeholders are
made in Ireland, which is entirely by the volition of the landlord,
and the registering of them generally at his expense, and that they
are carried up to the hustings to vote for whatever candidate the
landlord chooses, just in the same way that the same person would
carry his, live stock to market, that under those circum stances v
they possess the same feeling with respect to the elective franchise
that they do in this country ? — I should think they do not ; they
are driven up like sheep, to vote ; I should think they do not
possess the same feelings ; I do not know, however, what the feel-
ings are in this country.
Are you aware that in this country, in ninety-nine cases out of
a hundred, a man is a freeholder by right of a property he
possesses in fee ? — I am told so.
Does not he in that respect differ very much from the Irish
freeholder, who is totally dependant for his franchise, upon his
landlord ? — Certainly.
Should you, as a proprietor, think your own power and influ-
ence diminished by having the elective franchise raised from forty
shillings to twenty pounds a year ? — My own power would not ;
for I have not turned my mind at all to political subjects ; I have
not even registered my own vote in the county in which I have an
estate ; my residence in Ireland is confined to Dublin ; I have not
seen that estate for this ten years.
In what county is that ? — In the county of Galway.
Why have you not registered your vote ? — I have not been in
the county these ten years ; and 1 thought it might involve me in
unpleasant circumstances, as I am acquainted with both the mem-
bers, and some persons spoken of as likely to be candidates.
HUGH O'CONNOR, ESQ. EXAMINED. 299
Do you consider that it would be desirable that a provision were
made by the state, for the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland ?
I should think it would.
Dou think that such an arrangement would be acceptable to
the Roman Catholic clergy or laity, if it were accompanied by
the general measure of emancipation ? — I should think it would,
if accompanied by emancipation, but not otherwise.
Do you think, that otherwise, the clergy would ever be brought
to accept of it ? — They have entered into resolutions to that
effect, that is, to accept no payment but from their flocks ; they
thought it might impair, if not destroy, the Catholic religion
among their flocks, if they did accept it.
You mean, under existing circumstances? — Under existing
circumstances.
Was not the ground of their objection stated to be, that they
might be considered as purchasing an advantage for themselves,
whilst the laity were left in a state of exclusion ? — That was the
ground.
Have you ever heard of it being likely that any Catholic pro-
perty will be transferred out of Ireland, in case the civil dis-
abilities are longer continued ?- — I can answer that question with
regard to myself, for I mean to leave Ireland in consequence of
the civil disabilities existing, as I now can leave Ireland : I find
it not a pleasant residence.
Does the unpleasantness of the residence arise to you, from the
disabilities under which you labour, or from the party feeling to
which religious differences have given rise ? — I take it, that the
civil disabilities create that party feeling.
Which is the inconvenience which you peculiarly suffer ; is it
the political disability, or the inconvenience of party feeling? —
I never sought for any place, it is from social intercourse being
poisoned.
Do you think that there are other Catholics disposed to take
the same step as you say you yourself are inclined to do ? — It is
natural to suppose there are ; I have heard many say, they would
leave Ireland if they could with convenience.
Do you think that any proportion of Irish capital will be trans-
f erred to other countries, in case the disabilities under which the
Catholics labour now are continued? — I should think there
would ; I have myself some capital in France.
You having retired from business, do not mean to say, that in
leaving Ireland you would transfer your capital, but you would
transfer your residence ? — I would transfer my residence.
Because the civil disabilities under which the Catholics labour,
make Ireland not so pleasant a residence as you think you can
meet with elsewhere ? — Yes.
300 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED.
Have you ever heard, that in case emancipation was granted,
that Catholics connected with Ireland, who now reside abroad,
would come to Ireland, and bring their property with them ? — I
have not heard of Catholics who reside abroad having much pro-
perty abroad, but I should think it is probable they would reside
in Ireland if Catholic emancipation were granted.
Ven&ris, 11° die M artii, 1825.
LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR.
[eath.
Lord Killeen, called in ; and Examined.
WHERE do you reside in Ireland? — In the county of Mea
Do you act as a magistrate in that county ? — Yes.
Is the police establishment under the new Constabulary Bill
— introduced into the county of Meath ? — It is.
How long has it been introduced ? — Since the month of De-
cember 1822.
How are the appointments of the police made in that county ;
by what authority? — The constables and sub-constables were
appointed by the magistrates ; the chief constables of course by
the government.
What description of individuals were appointed as con-
stables and sub-constables by the magistrates ? — They selected
in the first instance, those of the old baronial constables,
who were qualified from their conduct, their age, and their
learning, those who could read and write, which is a necessary
qualification for them ; afterwards the magistrates appointed
those that they thought likely to fill the situation with advan-
tage.
How have the expectations of the magistrates been answered,
by the conduct of the individuals who have been so appointed ?
— Generally speaking very well.
Have you had an opportunity of comparing the conduct of
the police in your county, which has been appointed by the
magistrates, with the conduct of the police in other counties,
which has not been appointed by the magistrates ? — Not ex-
actly.
Do you consider that any good effects have arisen in conse-
quence of the magistrates taking upon themselves to make
those appointments, and making them from the body of the
people in the county? — Certainly; I consider that where the
magistrates have made the appointments, the appointments
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 301
have been better made than by leaving it to chief constables,
as it has, I understand, been done in other places.
Have any ill effects arisen out of the appointments made by
the magistrates, by reason of the local prejudices or connexions
of constables appointed? — Not in the county of Meath ; I am
not aware of it.
What description of persons are appointed by Government,
as chief constables in the county of Meath? — Half-pay officers in
general.
Have those appointments been such as to render the police of
your county efficient? — I think they have.
Are there any defects in the present constabulary system in
Ireland, which have suggested themselves to your lordship's
mind? — Yes; it is the practice constantly when a man behaves
ill in one place, to remove him to another ; I speak of the con-
stables, not of the chief constables.
What would your lordship suggest as a punishment in place
of his removal ? — It is hard to say.
Can you state any particular instances in which this power of
removal for some misconduct, operated to the prejudice of the
police establishment in the county of Meath ?— No.
Has it produced any evil consequences when it was done ? —
Not that I am aware of; because the persons have been re-
moved to a distance, and have been lost sight of.
Are there any other defects in the present constabulary
system, to which you would wish to point the attention of the
Committee?— In the old baronial constable system, the police
was so exceedingly deficient and inefficient, that we were very
glad to have the Constabulary Bill ; and the county of Meath
was one of the first in which it was introduced.
Is the system of petty sessions introduced into the county of
Meath? — Yes.
Is it universally acted upon? — I think now it is universally,
in the county of Meath, within a few months ; but, in some
parts of it, it has been in existence for two years, or two years
and a half.
Is your lordship acquainted with any magistrates who still
continue to act individually, after the introduction of the petty
sessions system ? — No.
What alteration do you conceive was introduced into the
practice of magistrates by the establishment of the petty sessions?
— I think the establishment of petty sessions has given the peo-
ple a very great confidence in the decision of magistrates.
Has that confidence resulted from the openness of the pro-
ceeding, or from the combined administration of justice by two
or more magistrates? — From both.
302 LORD KILLEfeN EXAMINED.
Do you conceive that it has made any difference in the ex-
penses attendant upon proceedings before magistrates? — Not in
the county where I reside. I think it has not, because the
magistrates immediately around us, were not what are called
trading magistrates.
What do you understand to be meant by trading magistrates ?
—Magistrates who have not much stake in the country, and
who receive payment for warrants and summonses, fyc.
Was that at all a common practice in Ireland ? — I under-
stand it was.
Is it common still? — I think not.
What species of misbehaviour of constables is that for which
they have been removed to other parts of the country — There
is at this moment, I believe, I speak merely of the county
where I reside, a person of the name of Rowley whose wife was
a Roman Catholic; she was ill in labour, and wished to see the
Roman Catholic clergyman ; her husband, who was a Protes-
tant, did not choose that she should see a Roman Catholic cler-
gyman: he sent for a Protestant clergyman, and the Protestant
clergyman, finding that the woman did not wish to have his as-
sistance, retired, and recommended that a Catholic priest should
be sent for. The woman died without seeing any clergyman.
That man was reported to the superintendent of the county,
and he was removed to another post or station.
Then his misbehaviour was not connected with his public duty
as constable? — No.
Are the Committee right in supposing, that the circumstances
of misbehaviour for which a man is removed from one station to
another, are circumstances not so much connected with his duty
as a constable, as for his conduct in other particulars, which
may have rendered him obnoxious in the neighbourhood? — I
think not ; that is the only instance I can speak of from my own
knowledge.
Have not the police in the county of Meath, in some in-
stances, been unfortunately obnoxious to the inhabitants where
they have resided? — They have.
In those cases, were the constables originally selected from
the district where they were stationed? — I cannot say for certain.
Has it not been the practice, to bring the misconduct of
those constables before the magistrates assembled at petty ses-
sions, by the chief constable ? — It has.
Therefore any misconduct has been taken cognizance of be-
fore the petty sessions, and they have come to some decision
with respect to that misconduct? — In general.
The punishment has been inflicted under the direction of the
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 303
chief constable ? — The only punishment I believe, that the Con-
stabulary Bill allows, is removal or dismissal ; there is not mili-
tary discipline.
In what respect have the police rendered themselves obnoxious
in the eyes of the people at large ? — There was a case at Sum-
mer Hill, the facts of which I do not at this moment exactly
recollect ; 1 know it only from hearsay ; a case of what was
called murder, there was a death.
Is your lordship aware, whether the individuals, who were
concerned in that death, were brought to trial?— The assizes
are, at this moment, going on.
In that case at Summer Hill, was the cause of quarrel at all
connected with difference of religious belief? — I believe it was.
Are you aware, that the magistrates have the power of fining
constables for ill-behaviour? — Yes.
And of dismissing them? — Yes; I think it is the government
that has the power to dismiss.
And of reducing them from one rank to another ? — Yes.
When did that case, that you mention, occur at Summer Hill?
— Some months ago; I am not quite certain as to the precise
time; but it is since the last assizes.
Where are your petty sessions held, in what situations in the
county of Meath? — I think at this moment the county is di-
vided into seven or eight districts.
In what description of houses are they held ? — We have four
quarter sessions towns where there are court-houses ; and in the
other towns they are held in the best houses which can be had.
There is no power existing by law at present, to establish
small court-houses for the purpose of holding petty sessions ? —
I believe not.
Do you conceive the administration of justice in those petty
sessions would be more regular, and more impressive upon the
minds of the people, if there were small court-houses established
at the different stations where the sessions are held ? — I am sure
of it.
Have you heard, among the magistrates in the county of
Meath, any complaint of the uncertainty of the present state of
the law, with regard to the fees that are to be taken for the
clerks of the petty sessions ? — Yes, I find it is complained of a
great deal .
Do not you conceive that it would be very desirable, that the
fees that are to be taken upon justice business, should be fixed
and ascertained by law? — I think it would.
Is there a record in writing kept at the petty sessions in the
county of Meath with which your lordship is acquainted, of
304 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED.
their acts done? — Yes, every case is entered in a book, and the
decision upon such case.
In case that practice should not be universal in other parts of
Ireland, do not you think it would be desirable to make it im-
perative upon the magistrates presiding at petty sessions, to
preserve a record in writing of all their acts? — I do, certainly.
Is the attendance of the chief constables, constant at the petty
sessions? — At the petty sessions that I attend, invariably the
chief constable is present; I have never known him to be absent.
Has it ever occurred to your lordship, that it would be de-
sirable to confer upon the magistrates, at petty sessions any
power of proceeding in recovering small debts? — No, I have
never thought of it.
Do you not think that the establishment of court-houses at
different places throughout the county, where petty sessions
are held, would cause a great deal or discontent amongst the
population of the county, on account of the expense of it? —
The expense might create discontent; but I am sure, in some
towns, it would be very beneficial to have a public court, be-
cause the great advantage arising from the system of the petty
sessions, is its publicity and openness.
How are houses now provided at those places? — I do not
know ; where I attend is one of the quarter sessions towns.
Have you heard any complaint in the towns which are not
quarter ssessions towns, from the magistrates, that they are in-
sufficiently accommodated? — Not from the magistrates; but I
have heard from a chief constable who attended another petty
sessions where I do not go, that there was a great inconvenience
arising from want of a large and proper house.
What is the species of duty that devolves upon the magis-
trates at petty sessions? — Chiefly servants' wages accounts.
And informations ? — Of course ; but I should state, that as
the county I live in is very tranquil, that one half of the year
there is scarcely any business but those small complaints of the
servants against the masters, for wages due.
Do not you apprehend, that the giving to the petty sessions
a jurisdiction in small debts, would entail upon them a very
burdensome duty? — I think it would.
Do you conceive that the gentlemen who live in the neigh-
bourhood, would be willing to undertake to give up so large a
portion of their time as would be necessary for the settlement
of such questions ? — I cannot possibly answer for others ; some
gentlemen I dare say would.
Do you think it necessary, considering the mode in which
those questions are decided now, that such a jurisdiction should
be given to the petty sessions? — No.
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 305
What time do the petty sessions ordinarily occupy ? — We
meet at twelve o'clock, and we generally break up from
four to five.
How often do you sit ? — Once a week.
Does it occur to your lordship, that, constituted as the
magistracy is, and necessarily constituted, in consequence of the
number of absentee proprietors, that great inconvenience might
arise from extending the jurisdiction of the petty sessions, in
cases of wages and debt ? — From what I have heard in other
parts of Ireland, I should suppose it would.
When you speak of its being a fit tribunal to extend the
jurisdiction of, you refer to that part of the country with which
you are acquainted ? — Yes.
Have you ever turned in your mind to what limit the juris-
diction, with respect to the recovery of small debts, might be
extended 1 — No ; six pounds, I think, is the highest sum to
which a magistrate is now empowered to go.
To what do you think it might be beneficially extended ? —
I should think, in cases of wages, very safely to ten pounds.
You act as a grand juror ?— Yes.
Have you been able to trace any material reduction in the
number of bills which are sent in to the grand jury, subsequent
to the establishment of petit sessions in the country ? — No, I do
not know that I have.
Are there any parts of the county of Meath, where it is diffi-
cult to form a Court of petit sessions, owing to the want of
magistrates ? — Except perhaps for the want of a proper house,
there are quite or nearly magistrates enough to form a bench.
In what district of the county does your lordship state it has
been difficult to form a court, in consequence of the want of a
house ? — I mentioned just now having heard from the chief con-
stable, that at a town called Longwood, there was an inconve-
nience arising for the want of a court-house.
How far distant is that from any other place where petit
sessions are held ? — Probably six miles.
Has not the establishment of petit sessions considerably con-
tributed to general good will in the country, to the arrange-
ment of quarrels among the common people ? — Certainly.
And given general satisfaction ? — Yes.
Is it at all the habit of the people to come to the petit sessions,
to refer their own little disputes to the magistrates for amicable
determination ? — Yes, they do.
Are the magistrates willing to lend their assistance in such
cases ? — Perfectly so.
Has that a tendency to increase the confidence of the people
in their legal decisions ? — I think it has.
306
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED.
Do not they also apply to individual magistrates for the
amicable settlement of their petty differences ? — They do ; but
in general, in the district where I live, we came to a sort of an
understanding, that we should never act individually.
Does your lordship apply that to acting judicially, or to act-
ing in an amicable and friendly manner ? — I fancy the arrange-
ment was made with a view to acting judicially/ but a magis-
trate would scarcely refuse to be a friendly arbitrator.
Are the people in your lordship's neighbourhood ever in the
habit of referring their differences to each other, to what they
call The saying of two men ?— -Very constantly.
Are they apt to be satisfied with those arbitrations ? — They
are.
Would the presence of a paid magistrate meet with dis-
pleasure among the magistrates in general, in your lordship's
apprehension ? — Certainly ; I think it would meet with great
displeasure.
Would it not have the effect of indisposing the unpaid and or-
dinary magistrates of the country from giving their attendance
at all ? — I think it would.
Are you aware how the appointment of an assistant barrister
at quarter sessions, being a paid magistrate, has operated in
regard to the ordinary attendance of the magistrates of the
county at quarter sessions ? — I do not apprehend that has
caused any difference, because the assistant barristers sit be-
sides, to decide civil bill causes ; and upon the days upon which
assaults and other criminal questions are decided, there is always
a good attendance of magistrates.
On the revision of the magistracy, were many gentlemen su-
perseded in the commission of the peace for the county of Meath ?
— I think only four.
Are there many Catholic gentlemen in the commission of the
peace ? — I believe ten or eleven.
What may be the number of those in the commission ? — There
are more than fifty ; but I cannot be positive as to the exact
number.
Have any of the magistrates who were superseded been ap-
pointed ?*— I believe not.
Does the number of Catholic magistrates in the county bear
a fair proportion to the Catholic property as compared with
the Protestant ? — Pretty nearly.
Has the sub-division of property gone on considerably in the
county of Meath ? — Not so much as in other parts of Ireland,
because it is a grazing county.
Is there any considerable extent of church lands or college
lands in the county of Meath ? — Not a great deal I think.
LORD KILLF.EN EXAMINED. 307
Has your lordship been able to perceive any distinction be-
tween the subdivision of property upon college and church
grounds, or lands upon which there are no freeholds granted, as
compared with lands upon which freeholds have been granted ?
— I am not sufficiently acquainted with the church and colle-
giate lands to be able to answer that.
Have you ever heard of any objection being made in Ireland
to the purchase of lands, upon the ground that the original
title of those lands had been forfeited, and patent subsequently
granted ? — Never.
You have never heard of any disinclination on the part of
Catholic purchasers to become possessed of estates so circum-
stanced ? — Never.
Nor do you believe any such disinclination to exist ? — I have
no reason to believe it.
Are there a considerable number of freeholders registered in
the county of Meath ? — Very small indeed, compared with the
size of the county.
Have you perceived any inconveniences to result in the ad-
ministration of landed property, by reason of the 40s. free-
hold system ? — I think it is a bad thing for the proprietor
of the soil.
Will your lordship have the kindness to explain in what re-
spect you conceive it to be a bad thing ? — A great sub-division
of property producing a great many small holdings, and pool-
tenants, I think, injures the proprietors of the soil.
How does your lordship conceive it to act upon the constitu-
tional principle of representation ; are the 40s. freeholders of
Ireland a class in the community, that exercise their own free
judgment in the choice of a representative ? — I have heard
that, in many instances, they do ; in other cases, and I believe
more generally, they follow the interest of their landlord.
As far as the interests of the landlords are concerned, your
lordship would see no objection to an extension of the qualifica-
tion from 40s. to a higher sum ? — My answer to that question
would depend a great deal upon what the higher sum were
fixed at.
Supposing that higher sum to be 101. or 51. what would your
lordship's answer be ? — I think that it perhaps would encroach
a good deal, even at 10/., upon the principle of popular repre-
sentation.
The question is directed simply to the interest of the land-
lord, as between landlord and tenant, whether, in the manage-
ment of the land, the interest of the landlord would be better
secured by a qualification of 10/. than, as it is now, a qualifica-
tion of 40s. 1 — I should consider, that the interest of the
308 LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED.
landlord would be benefitted by having a richer class of te-
nantry.
How do you conceive that such a measure would act upon
the interest of the tenant ? — I cannot exactly say.
If the system of dividing holdings into 40s. freeholds has
been injurious to the landlord in dividing the land, might not
the system of throwing a great number of those small holdings
into one large one, for the purpose of making one freehold, be
injurious to those who are now occupiers of the land ? — I think
it would.
Do you conceive that the subdivision of land which has been
going on in Ireland, promotes, in any respect, the comforts of
the tenantry ? — I should think it does. I believe that in some
instances, landlords, for the sake of having a freehold interest,
consult the comfort of their tenantry ; but I speak here not of
my own knowledge.
In a former part of your examination, your lordship was
drawing a distinction between the 51. qualification and the 10/.,
and suggesting, that a qualification so high as 10£. might be
too great an encroachment upon the popular principles of our
representation ; do the same observations apply to 51. ? — No, I
think that 51. would not encroach too much upon the political
privilege of popular representation.
What description of holding, or what amount of rent, do you
think would leave to the tenant an interest of 51. per annum in
his holding, upon your own estate, for instance ? — I cannot
possibly answer that question in a moment.
What is the size of those holdings, upon which at present
the lessees will swear that they have a 40s. interest, as far as
your own knowledge goes ? — About two acres with a house ;
from two to four and five acres.
That, of course, must depend upon the rent? — Yes.
What rent is generally paid, as far as your personal and lo-
cal knowledge goes, for those holdings of three or four acres ?
Those four acres, with a house, will let from 21. to 50s. per acre.
That would make it a holding of 71. 10s. a year ? — The ques-
tion, I understood, referred to my father's estate.
Then a rent of about 11. or 81. paid to the landlord, will
leave a 40s. interest to the lessee ? — Yes.
- The land in the county of Meath is very rich ? — Generally
very good ; there are parts of the county very rich, and other
parts, where those freeholders are made generally, are not so
good.
Do you not know instances of a very large quantity of
ground being in the possession of a farmer, who will register a
40s. freehold only? — I do not know of any such instance.
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 309
If the increased qualification for voting was to be made 51.
do you not think that such change of qualification would be a
wise measure for Ireland ? — If I am asked that question dis-
tinctly, and unconnected with what is called the question of
Catholic emancipation, I should say it is not politic or wise.
As accompanying the grant of the Catholic claims, do you
think such a change of qualification expedient? — I think it
. would be ; in fact, I am not quite prepared to answer that ques-
tion, because my own mind is not quite made up on the subject.
If the alteration were proposed without Catholic emancipation,
I know it would produce very bad effects ; if accompanied with
Catholic emancipation, I think it might perhaps be beneficial.
The increased qualification would tend to check the subdi-
vision of land? — I think it would.
And the multiplication of paupers ? — Yes.
You stated, that you thought that the existence of the 40s.
franchise, and the desire that many landholders have to extend
their freehold interest, induced them to add to the comforts of
their tenantry ; in what way do you mean to state that to oc-
cur ? — I did not state that of my own knowledge ; but I had
heard instances had occurred, where landlords have been in-
duced to give a good tenure and a house, and have so far bene-
fitted their tenantry.
Then the benefit of the tenantry is, in fact, giving them a
freehold lease? — Certainly, giving them an interest in their
farm.
Does not the giving that freehold lease, coupled with the
same desire of extending a freehold interest, add very much to
the system of multiplying small holdings ?' — Yes.
How many have you known to be registered out of one hold-
ing as freeholders? — I think 1 never heard of more than one.
Is the system of joint-tenantry extensively acted upon in the
county of Meath ? — I believe not.
Has there been a contested election in the county of Meath,
lately ? — Never, never since the union.
Has there been one since the elective franchise was granted,
in the year 1793? — I believe there was one not long before the
union ; I do not recollect it myself.
Then, in point ofiact, the system of multiplying freeholders,
which ha prevailed in other parts of Ireland, has not existed to
any great extent in the county of Meath ? — No, excepting in
the boggy districts where poor people crowd together for the
advantage of fuel, which is very scarce in that county.
Would your lordship venture upon an opinion, as to what
impression would be produced upon the minds of those persona,
310
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED,
who are now 40s. freeholders, in the event of their being dis-
(jualified, in consequence of the raising of the qualification of
freeholders to 51. 1 — As I stated before, I think if it was made
a part of the question of Catholic emancipation, they would not
be so adverse to the measure ; but if it were proposed without
that measure, I am quite certain their feelings would be hostile
to the change.
Does it appear to your lordship, that the general class of
40s. freeholders take much pride, or set much value upon the
possession of the elective franchise? — As I was asked jrist now,
whether we had ever had a contested election, and as I answered
that we have not had one, I can give no very decided answer to
that question.
Have you ever heard, in any one county in Ireland, of a can-
didate canvassing the 40s. freeholdeis of the county? — It is not
usual.
In point of fact, whom does the candidate generally canvass,
when a contested election is apprehended in other counties ?-*-
Generally the great landed proprietors.
Did you ever know an instance of a candidate going about
canvassing the 40s. freeholders ? — No.
Does not your lordship think those 40s. freeholders attach a
good deal of value to the circumstance of their being free*
holders, and that they may look up to the successful represen-
tative for whom they vote, for some little advantage after they
have given him their services ? — I have no doubt that they do.
Do you not apprehend, that the proprietor of those votes is
more in the habit of looking up to the successful candidate,
than the 40s. freeholder himself? — I should think, both landlord
and tenant place some value on it.
Your observations, with regard to the franchise, are applied
solely to counties, not to cities and towns ? — Only to counties.
Are there not, in the county of Meath, several very consider-
able towns, in which the inhabitants are 40s. freeholders, which
are not corporate towns or cities ? — There is only one town, in
the county of Meath, that returns a member.
Are there other considerable towns besides that, which do not
return members? — Yes.
What would be the effect upon persons who reside in those
towns, in the event of their being deprived of their franchise,
or by the qualification being raised to 51. ? — I should imagine
that they would view the alteration with jealousy.
Are they not equally deriving their interest under some great
landed proprietor ; or does your lordship mean, that the free-
holders in those towns are fee simple proprietors ?— In the towns
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 311
of which I speak, I believe they are chiefly deriving under great
landed proprietors.
And following the interest of their landlords in the same
manner as other freeholders? — Yes, generally.
Is it not pretty much a matter of notoriety in Ireland, that
those voters are driven to elections ? — I have heard of its having
happened.
Generally speaking ? — Generally speaking.
Have you ever heard of the voters of a particular landlord
being kept in confinement until they voted, to prevent commu-
nication with other parties ? — I have never heard of that.
Or of their being put into the pound? — No.
Do you happen to know how many voters there are in the
county of Meath? — I heard some time ago, that there were not
above a thousand registered voters.
Possibly, the majority of those are not merely 40s. free-
holders ? — Many of them are.
Do you not apprehend that many of the 40s. freeholders in
the county of Meath, from the largeness of their tenures, might
register themselves 201. freeholders, if they chose to do so ? — '
Some might, but not what are commonly called the pauper 40$.
freeholders.
Have you ever heard that a landlord has made it a personal
quarrel with a candidate for canvassing his tenantry ? — No, I
never heard of that.
Does your lordship believe that a provision for the Catholic
clergy, made by the state, would be acceptable to the clergy of
the Catholic church in Ireland, being made a part of, and
being accompanied with or following Catholic emancipation ?
— I have had no communication whatever with any of the
Catholic clergy upon the subject, but as far as my own opinion
goes, I should think there would be no objection to it.
Does your lordship think that any objection would be felt by
their flocks, by those holding the Roman Catholic persuasion?
— I see no reason why there should be, after Catholic eman-
cipation.
Would it be received, on the contrary, as a great boon on the
part of Parliament, to those who now complain of having to
support two establishments ? — Always speaking of it as connected
with Catholic emancipation, I believe the peasantry would have
no objection to such a measure.
Is your lordship apprized generally, of the amount of income
of the parish clergy of the Catholic church ? — I have heard that
some parishes produce perhaps 300^. a year ; but I believe there
are very few instances.
What is the average, do you suppose, in your own county ?
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED.
— I should think, as with us the population is not very great, per-
haps from lOO/.to 1501. would be a fair average.
Is that exclusive of the stipend to the curate or coadjutor,
as he is called in the Catholic church ; has the clergyman to pay
out of that his assistant? — Certainly ; the curate is generally paid
by the parish priest.
Has he no sources of income, except what he receives from
the parish priest ? — I fancy not ; the curates are very poor.
Are you aware of the income of the clergy of the city of
Dublin for instance, or Cork ; have you ever heard any estimate
of their incomes? — The parishes in Dublin, some of them, are
very valuable.
Of what value do you suppose ? — I have heard some of them
are as high as 500/. per annum.
Your lordship having stated, that you conceive the measure
of a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy would be accept-
able to them and to the laity in Ireland, if accompanied with
Catholic emancipation ; does your lordship mean to suggest,
that unaccompanied with that measure, a provision for the
clergy would not meet with such acceptance? — I am quite sure
it would not.
Can your lordship form any opinion whether the payment of
the Roman Catholic clergy by the state, would be followed
with an abandonment, on the part of the Roman Catholic
clergy, of the fees they are now m the habit of taking ? — That
would depend in a great measure on what the amount of the
provision was to be.
Do you think there would be any objection on the part of the
Catholic body at large in Ireland, to allow the Crown the power
of a veto upon the appointment of the Roman Catholic bishops?
• — Very strong indeed.
Do you think the same objection would extend to the in-
terference of the Crown in the appointment of all the Catholic
clergy ? — I do.
Would there be any objection to confining the appointment
to what is called Domestic nomination, so as to exclude altoge-
ther the power of the Pope in originating the nomination? —
I am inclined to think that the inferior or second order of clergy
would like what is called Domestic nomination.
Will you explain what you call Domestic nomination ? — It is
very difficult for a layman to do that.
You confined your opinion respecting the attachment felt to
domestic nomination, to the inferior clergy ; was that from ac-
cident or from any intentional limitation of meaning ? — By the
inferior clergy, I mean the parish priests ; what are called the
second order of clergy.
Why should the superior clergy not be of the same opinion 1
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 313
— Because I know that in many instances the superior clergy
do not like the popular election which has taken place by the
parish priests.
Have there not been elections by deans and chapters in Ire-
land ? — There have.
In which the choice originated with them, and has been con-
firmed by the See of Rome ? — There have.
To that species of domestic nomination, your former observa-
tion does not apply ? — No, by inferior clergy I mean to exclude
only the bishops.
Do you mean that the bishops would object to the nomination
taking place by deans and chapters ? — Not by a dean and chap-
ter, but by popular election.
When in the answer in question, you expressed an opinion
as to the sense of the Catholic church upon domestic nomina-
tion, you meant to confine yourself to one particular mode of
domestic nomination, the election by the inferior clergy? —
There are dioceses in which there are no dean and chapter, and
in that case the election has been a popular election, by the
whole body of parish priests and curates.
To such election you conceive the superior clergy might feel
indisposed ?— I think they are rather adVerse to that mode.
In those cases, where the election was amongst the body of
the inferior clergy at large, was there not, in point of fact, a
contest between them and the superior order, who claimed a
right of postulating a coadjutor bishop, or electing a successor ?
— Jealousy sometimes exists.
Are the Catholic laity extremely jealous of the interference of
the Pope, in any thing excepting the most purely spiritual
matters ? — No.
Has there been any interference of the kind, to be jealous of?
— Not that I am aware of.
If the Pope did interfere in any thing except what was
purely spiritual, would there be any jealousy ; there are some
things in which the spiritual and the temporal authority are
very much mixed ; and you hardly know where the spiritual
authority begins and where it ends ; now in questions of that
kind, would not the Catholic laity be disposed to be jealous of
the interference of the Pope, if he started beyond what, in the
greatest latitude of the term, is called the spiritual part of the
question? — It is a question upon which the people of Ireland
think very little.
In point of fact, is there any interference in temporal matters
by the Pope? — None, that I know of.
Do the Catholics hold, that the Pope has any right to interfere
314 LORD KTLLEEN EXAMINED.
in temporal affairs ? — No ; he has no temporal authority in Ire-
land.
Are there any appeals to the Pope in cases of marriage ? — I do
not know of any, except to obtain dispensations.
Is not marriage one of the sacraments in the Catholic church"?
— Yes, it is.
For how many years has your lordship acted as a magistrate,
in the county of Meath?- About three years, as long as my
father acted as a magistrate, I never took out a commission of
the peace.
Your lordship has acted as a grand juror ? — Yes.
Have you witnessed, in your county, any unfair prejudice in
the administration of justice, as between Catholics and Pro-
testants, in the assize courts and sessions courts? — I do not re-
collect any instance of prejudice or partiality at this moment.
Are the juries composea indiscriminately of Chatholics and
Protestants ? — Generally more Protestants than Catholics.
They are indiscriminately composed? — Yes; mixed juries.
Have you ever heard it objected to the formation of juries,
or pannels of juries, that religious party has found its way into
the formation of them? — I know, that when the parties are of
different religions, there is a distrust.
In what instances, or when? — The qnestion has just recalled
to my mind an instance, and a trivial one, in fact, but which
will show the feeling of the poorer classes upon this point, at
the quarter sessions, where there was a policeman to be tried
for an assault ; the policeman was a Protestant ; the other
persons were Catholics ; and it was stated, and believed by the
Catholic peasantry, that the petit jury were chiefly Protestant.
The policeman was the person to be tried ? — There were two
actions ; there was an action of assault brought against the po-
liceman, and a counter action for assault brought by him against
the other party.
Had the policeman a right of challenge upon such an occa-
sion?— If he had, I do not think he availed himself of it.
You say the jury were Protestant chiefly ? — I was told chiefly
so ; but the man was acquitted.
Was the policeman acquitted ? — The bill, as against the po-
liceman, was ignored by the grand jury ; the bill, as against the
other man, was found by the grand jury ; but he was acquitted
by the petit jury.
Was the petit jury Protestant or Catholic ? — Upon the petit
jury, I understand, there were one or two Catholics, but I am
not certain ; I know it was not exclusively Protestant ; and I
mention this case merely to show the distrust which the lower
LORD KILLEEN EXAMINED. 315
orders have in the administration of justice, when the parties are
of different religions.
But the policeman was never brought to trial ? — The bill
was ignored, as to him.
Is that the only instance of which you have heard ? — In con-
versation, I have heard of many.
Has your lordship observed, among the lower classes of Ca-
tholics, a disposition to apply rather to Catholic magistrates
than to Protestants, for redress of injuries they may conceive
themselves to have sustained? — I think, in general, they have
more confidence when they see both parties united ; and that is
one of the great advantages which, I think, has resulted from
petty sessions.
Have any instances come within your knowledge, in which
they have gone to a Catholic magistrate more distant, instead
of to a Protestant nearer, before the establishment of the petty
sessions ? — I do not know myself, but I believe it sometimes
happens.
Do you think, that the circumstance of the exclusion of Ca-
tholics from the office of sheriff, tends to cast any doubt upon
the -administration of the law, through the medium of juries,
returned by sheriffs so appointed ? — I do, particularly amongst
the lower orders.
Do you think, that that exclusion so existing, has, in point of
fact, produced an impression upon the minds of the Catholics in
Ireland? — I think, that as long as Catholics are excluded from
the office of sheriff, and thereby prevented from forming juries,
the Catholic population will not have the same confidence in the
juries that it otherwise would have.
Are not Catholics sub-sheriffs ? — They are eligible, I believe.
Is it not the sub-sheriff that summons all the petit juries, in
point of fact and in practice ? — Yes.
And Catholics do serve upon the petit juries ? — They do.
Is not the sub-sheriff, where he does interfere in summoning
juries, only a ministerial officer acting under the authority of the
high sheriff? — I should fancy so.
So long as the high sheriff is necessarily a Protestant, do you
not conceive that some degree of distrust must exist with regard
to juries, even though they are appointed through the medium
of a Catholic sub-sheriff? — I do.
Is there not, generally speaking, a very fair representation of
the Catholic property upon the grand juries ? — In the county
of Meath, very fair indeed.
Does not that extend to petit juries ? — Yes, I believe it does.
In point of number, is there not generally a majority of Ca-
3 16
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
tholics upon the petit juries in the county of Meath?-— V
often ; I believe I may say generally.
Is the sub-sheriff in Meath, Catholic or Protestant ? — I do
not know.
Are you aware, at any period, whether he was or not ? — I
believe, last year, he had been a Catholic, but I have no know-
ledge of it.
So that, in point of fact, where the usage may have been to
appoint indiscriminately a Catholic or a Protestant, your lord-
ship has not considered it at all material, or of any consequence
to inquire, what the profession of faith of the officer was ? — I
have never asked the question.
Mercurii, 16° die Martii, 1825.
LORD BINNING IN THE CHAIR.
The Right Reverend James Doyle, D.D., Titular Bishop
Kildare and Leighlin, called in ; and Examined.
You are the Roman Catholic Bishop of Kildare and Leigh -
lin? — I am.
According to the principles which govern the Roman Ca-
tholic church in Ireland, has the Pope any authority to issue
commands, ordinances, or injunctions, general or special,
without the consent of the King ? — He has.
If he should issue such orders, are the subjects of His
Majesty, particularly the clergy, bound to obey them ? — The
orders which he has a right to issue must regard things that
are of a spiritual nature ; and when his commands regard such
things, the clergy are bound to obey them ; but were he to
issue commands regarding things not spiritual, the clergy are
not in anywise bound to obey them.
Does it not happen frequently, that there must be such an
intermixture of spiritual and temporal power in such cases,
that it is very difficult to know where the spiritual power ends,
and where the temporal power begins ? — Such difficulties have
occurred from time to time ; but I conceive, that at present,
and even for some centuries past, the limits between the
temporal and spiritual things, which such commands of the
Pope might affect, are so well ascertained, that no mistake
could, morally speaking, possibly at present occur.
Is the authority of the Pope in spiritual matters, absolute
or limited ?— It is limited.
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 6\ t
Is it limited by the authority of councils? — It is limited by
decrees of councils already passed ; it is limited by usage, also,
in this respect, that when he directs any decree respecting
local discipline to any nation whatsoever, beyond the limits of
his own territory, (I mean by his own territory, what is called
the Patrimony of St. Peter, or the Papal States,) the assent of
the bishops of such country is necessary, in order that his
decree have effect.
Would it be possible, according to the discipline of the
Roman Catholic church, to hold a council in Ireland, without-
the consent of the Pope ? — It would be possible to hold a
council in Ireland, without the consent or the knowledge of
the Pope; but such decrees of that council, if it were a
national, or even a provincial one, as would regard faith or
discipline, would not have force, unless they were approved of
or sanctioned, after being passed here, by the Pope ; but every
bishop, within his own diocese, has the power of holding a
diocesan synod or council, the decrees of which have force, in-
dependent of the Pope, and without his being made acquainted
with them.
In the event of what is generally called Catholic Emancipa-
tion being granted, and an incorporation of the Catholics
with the government of the country, would the Roman Catholic
church consider it an usurpation on the part of the King, to
order councils to be held for the regulation of the Roman Ca-
tholic church, in matters of discipline ? — We do not recognise
an authority in any lay person whatsoever, to convene a
council, or to order one to be held, unless he do so at the
desire of, or in conjunction with, the ecclesiastical authority.
That, under no circumstances, could take place? — I do not
know that were His present Majesty to wish that a council
were held, and to signify such His Majesty's pleasure to the
Catholic bishops in Ireland, in such case, I have no doubt, but
they might hold, and even would hold, such council.
Would such council be, according to the laws of the Roman
Catholic church, absolutely illegal, without the consent of the
Pope ? — No ; but the decrees of such council would have no
validity, unless they were approved of and sanctioned by the
Pope ; however, the holding of such council would be perfectly
legal. The Committee are not to understand, by what I have
said, that we would recognise in His Majesty a right to con-
vene such council, or to order it to be held ; but only that we,
as subjects obedient to His Majesty, and willing, in all things
lawful, to conform to His Majesty's will, that we would, upon
an intimation made to us, cheerfully hold a council, arid deli-
318 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
berate upon any matter which he would submit to our con-
sideration.
Supposing there was a representative of the Pope in this
country, would the Roman Catholic clergy have any objection
to allow the power of such representative to be strictly de-
fined?— Instead of being opposed to it, they would most
anxiously desire that his power should be strictly defined ;
and there is no class of persons within the kingdom who would
profit so much from that specific definition of his power, as
the Catholic bishops.
Would there be any objection to allow the King of Great
Britain the power of refusing any representative from the
Pope to reside in these kingdoms ? — His Majesty is prevented,
as I conceive the law now to stand, from holding any commu-
nication with the Pope, or permitting any envoy or nuncio of
the Pope to reside within these kingdoms.
Supposing the law was to be altered, would you then have
any objection to His Majesty having that power ? — I cannot
see how we could have any objection to it, because if such a
person was resident in the country, the ordinary business
which we now transact at Rome could be transacted with him ;
and if he were to be removed from the country, or not per-
mitted to come into it, we should only continue to communi-
cate with Rome, in the same manner as we now do.
Would there be any objection, on the part of the Roman
Catholic clergy, for the legislature to demand from the legate,
before he is allowed to exercise his functions, a solemn written
promise, not to attempt any thing against the Jaws of the
kingdom, or to continue in England or Ireland beyond the
pleasure of the King, or of the privy council? — To the first
part of what is stated, so far from having any objection to it,
we should be glad that such a demand were made of him. As
to the second part, it is a matter about which we should not,
properly speaking, form any opinion. Whether the King
were to have such a right or not, is a matter about which, I
think, we need not in any way be consulted ; it would rest be-
tween His Majesty and the court of Rome, and we would, as
I conceive, have nothing to do with it ; but as to the requiring
a pledge by oath, or otherwise, from the nuncio who might
be placed in this country, that he would not in anywise
interfere with the temporal or civil concerns either of His
Majesty, or of His Majesty's subjects, so far from having an
objection to that, we should rejoice at it, because we would
not wish that he should so interfere in any way. We would
also be glad that such a declaration were made by him, be-
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 319
cause that would go far to satisfy the minds of those who
differ from us in religion, as to the sentiments which we enter-
tain with regard to the Pope, or his envoys.
Can the court of Rome, of its own mere volition, give orders
for levying tithes, taxes, impositions, alms, contributions, or
any money for bulls of pardon or indulgences, upon the Ca-
tholic people of Ireland? — I state distinctly, that the Pope has
no power in any shape or form, or for any purpose whatever,
or under any pretence or pretext, or in lieu of any bull,
rescript or indulgence, or permission, or manner of writing,
or otherwise, which he may issue, or which he may direct
here, to levy or require from the subjects of this realm any
money whatever, or any equivalent for money.
Is it in the power of the Pope to absolve the Catholic people
from their oaths of allegiance ? — It is not.
Or to deprive his Majesty the King of his kingdom ? — It is
not, indeed.
Could any admonition, or excommunication, or interdiction
by the Pope, excuse the temporal obedience of the Catholic
laity or the Catholic clergy to the King? — Most undoubt-
edly not.
Could the Pope excommunicate a Roman Catholic holding
an office under the Crown, supposing, for instance, the law
allowed him to be a judge, for performing the duties of that
office, even though a sentence pronounced by him might trench
upon the supposed supremacy of the Pope in spiritual mat-
ters ? — If it be a mixed matter, in which civil rights are con-
cerned, certainly such judge could not be molested or excom-
municated by the Pope for deciding according to the law,
which he was bound by his office to administer.
Is there any jurisdiction, according to the discipline of the
Roman Catholic church in Ireland, allowed to the Pope, or to
the Pope's legates, in matters concerning marriages ? — In the
discipline of the Catholic church, the Council of Trent has
limited the degrees of consanguinity, and affinity within
which marriages might not be lawfully contracted ; for,
by the Council of Lateran, held some centuries before, degrees
of kindred within which marriages could not be contracted,
were extended much more than they are at present. Now we
recognise the Pope as the executive power in the Catholic
church ; and he is, on that account, enabled to execute the
laws of general councils. Now, the Council of Trent has de-
creed, that marriages cannot validly be contracted within
certain degrees of kindred ; and the Pope, upon a sufficient
cause being shewn, and not without it, has power to dispense
in those degrees of kindred, and permit the marriage to take
320 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
place. A bishop even, independent of the Pope, has, by
ancient usage, a right to dispense, in certain circumstances,
with many such impediments as those to which I allude.
Suppose parties have not had recourse to the spiritual
courts for those dispensations, is the issue of such marriages
illegitimate? — We repute it legitimate according to law, and
we recognise such issue as the rightful possessors or inheritors
of property, but we do not look upon them as legitimate in
the ecclesiastical sense ; for instance, a son born of such mar-
riage we could not ordain as priest, or consecrate as bishop ;
but the son of such marriage we would recognise, and it
would be our duty so to do, as the legal inheritor of his father's
title or estate.
Are there any other disabilities 1 — No other occur to me.
Has the Pope the power of legitimizing persons who must
be considered as bastards in the ecclesiastical sense ? — Such
power resides with the Pope, and also in the bishop, in certain
cases denned by law, which are very numerous.
By law you mean ecclesiastical law? — Yes.
Is there any jurisdiction, according to the discipline of the
Roman Catholic church in Ireland, allowed to the Pope with
respect to adultery ? — I know of none.
Or perjury ? — No, there is not ; unless that which every
bishop has, namely, a power of excommunicating a person
notoriously guilty of it.
The cognizance of all those matters then, it is presumed,
belongs to the civil courts ? — Unquestionably.
And there can be no appeal from the decision of the civil
courts to the Pope, in cases of adultery or marriage? — No,
there is no such appeal at all, that I recollect.
Can any foreigner be appointed to a benefice in Ireland? —
At present he can. The right of presenting to all the sees in
Ireland was vested, by usage or by law, I do not know which,
in the Stuart family, previous to their being expelled from
these countries ; and whilst a descendant of that family re-
sided at Rome, he was accustomed to recommend to the Irish
Catholic sees ; from the death of the late Pretender till the
present time, the right of appointment to bishoprics in Ireland
has vested solely and exclusively in the Pope ; but, from that
period until the present, he has not in any one instance that
has come to my knowledge, (and I have made very diligent in-
quiries upon the subject,) appointed any person, unless such
as had been previously recommended to him by some person
or persons in this country. The persons who so recommend
generally, are the chapter, and where there is no chapter ex-
isting, the parochial clergy of the diocese, and the metropo-
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 321
litan or suffragan bishops who are of the province where the
see happens to be vacant.
Can the Pope unite or incorporate livings in Ireland, with-
out any reference to the bishop ? — He can incorporate bishop-
rics in Ireland, without any reference to any authority here ;
but it would, on his part, be a stretch of power, against which,
were it not done at our desire, we would remonstrate, and it
could scarcely take effect ; but the naked power is in him ;
the exercise of that power, however, is another thing, for it
would regard the discipline of our church, and upon that, if
he attempted to do any thing that did not meet with our full
approbation, we should oppose to him what I might call here
a constitutional resistance ; and he could not easily carry it into
effect against our will.
In cases of appeal to the court of Rome, respecting either
the incorporation of livings, or the limits of parishes, which it
is understood are frequently made? — With regard to the
union or division of ecclesiastical livings here, the right
of the Pope regards dioceses only, for the union or division of
parishes is a right vested by law in the bishops.
If there be any dispute respecting the limits of a parish, the
first appeal is to the bishop? — To the bishop.
Then there is an appeal from his decision to the court of \-,
Rome ? — No ; to the Metropolitan, and from him to the Pope ;
but in those matters appeals are seldom or never made, and if
made, not countenanced, for they are only what we call the
causte majores that are referred to Rome, or about which ap-
peals are properly made at Rome.
Can the Pope summon the attendance of any witnesses in
such causes ? — He might summon them, but to enforce their
attendance, is another thing; the practice of the court of
Rome in such cases, when testimony is required, always is, to
appoint a commission here to take evidence, and to transmit
the evidence to Rome.
Can the Pope, or his legate, grant a dispensation to a gra-
duate at any university, at Maynooth for instance, or at any
other college, to take his degree at an earlier period than the
common forms of the university allow? — I do not know that
the Pope has such a power ; I think the granting degrees is a
privilege generally derived from -the King, and not from the
Pope, outside the territories of the Pope himself; he has
granted to religious orders the power of granting what we call
a degree of master in theology, a rank which is equal to that
of doctor for instance ; but except this, \ have known of no
case where the Pope has, for the last four centuries, granted
to any corporation or individual a power to confer degrees,
322 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
so that the exercise of that right on the part of the Pope,
is, in some measure, obsolete; and I can scarcely inform
the Committee, what he can or cannot do upon the subject, at
present, but I can with great safety say, that the Pope is not
disposed to revive a practice which probably he could not,
were he so disposed, bring into use.
In the case of the Catholic emancipation being granted,
and the Catholics being thereby placed on the same footing
with Protestants, as regards civil rights in Ireland, would,
that make any difference in the ecclesiastical state of Ireland?
*— I do not suppose it would.
Is there any difference between a country that is considered
in the state of a missionary country, and a country regularly
under the Catholic church? — There is a material difference
between a missionary country and one governed by a regularly
constituted hierarchy ; our church in Ireland is of the latter
description, and not of the former ; but our business with
Rome, for the sake of convenience and dispatch, is transacted
through the congregation De propaganda Fide, which watches
over the missionary countries and their interests ; but except
that our business is so transacted, and Ireland thereby treated
like a missionary country, I see no reason why it should be so
considered either at Rome or by ourselves. We, in a word, do
not consider our country as a missionary country, such, for
instance, as England is, for we have a regularly constituted
church.
Then it is not at all upon the ground of those transactions
going on, as if Ireland was a missionary country, that the
Pope has the nomination of the bishops in Ireland ? — By no
means ; it is because the right of presenting was vested in a
family which is extinct, and then the Pope, as the supreme
head of the church, took to himself this right, which was, as it
were, in abeyance, and acts upon it in the appointment of
bishops, since the extinction of that family ; for we do not,
and cannot recognise in a prince, or in any number of persons
professing a religion different from our own, a right to present
to ecclesiastical benefices, if you call them so, or to offices
having attached to them the care of souls.
In the case of the question of Catholic emancipation being
granted, would there be any objection on the part of the Irish
clergy, to an arrangement being made with the court of Rome,
by which the nomination to the benefices in Ireland might
become purely domestic? — We should be extremely glad, if
such an arrangement were entered into, provided that such
domestic appointment did not exclude, what we consider as
essential to our Catholicism, namely, the right of the Pope to
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 323
give institution to our bishops, as he does for instance in
France, to the Catholic bishops there.
In the case of Catholic emancipation being granted, would
the Catholic clergy feel any objection to an arrangement
being made, by which they might receive a salary for the per-
formance of their ecclesiastical duties ? — Upon that subject I
could not make known to the Committee, the sentiments of
the clergy as a body, or even of many of them as individuals;
but I can tell what I think myself upon the subject : I should
be adverse to the receiving of any emolument or compensation
whatever from the Crown ; and I should prefer receiving the
slender support which I receive at present from the people
whom I serve ; but if His Majesty's government, or those
through whose favourable exertions the Bill for our emanci-
pation might be carried forward, were to require, as a
condition, that I would receive such bounty as His Majesty
might be pleased graciously to confer upon me, I should not
refuse it if such refusal would be an obstacle to the passing of
such Bill ; but were I too choose for myself, I should prefer
not receiving it. I would beg also to give the Committee to
understand, that I would not, for any consideration whatever,
receive a stipend or a means of support, which it would be in
the power of His Majesty's government to give or withhold.
If I were to receive any thing, I should expect it would be
given, and that I would have a right to receive it, as long
as I comported myself loyally and peaceably as it becomes a
subject.
When you say, that you would consider that it would be
proper that it should be liable to be taken away, in case of
your not comporting yourself loyally, and in proper obedience
to the laws, the Committee conclude you mean, in case you
were convicted by some legal court of such conduct? — Un-
questionably.
You stated, that the power of appointing to bishoprics in
Ireland, resided in the Stuart family; will you state hpw that
power came to reside in the Stuart family ? — In the same
manner as in most of the other royal families of Europe.
Originally, in the Catholic church, bishops were elected by the
people and clergy conjointly ; afterwards those assemblies be-
came scenes of riot and tumult, and the right of election was
confined to the clergy alone ; the clergy then being a nume-
rous body, intrigues and cabals, and those other faults which
human nature is liable to in every class and description of
men, produced much evil, and hence the election of bishops
was confined to chapters ; those chapters in time also became
seats of intrigue, and kings were anxious to get into their
324 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
own hands the patronage of the church : hence they entered
into treaties or concordats generally throughout Europe with
the Pope, that they should have a right of sending a conge
tfelire to chapters, recommending a certain person to them
to be elected by them, and they the sovereigns agreed at the
same time with the Pope, that he should give institution to
such person, he being fit and proper, as the chapter had elect-
ed, upon the royal recommendation. An arrangement of this,
or of a similar nature, exists in almost every country in
Europe ; and it existed in Ireland in the time of the Stuarts
and Tudors.
Will you have the goodness to state, whether the Catholic
clergy in Ireland recognise that right in a Protestant sove-
reign ? — We never recognise such right in any Protestant
sovereign whatever.
Then, in point of fact, it was only recognised in the person
of James the Second ? — Only in the person of James the Se-
cond, of all the Stuarts.
You hold, that that same power still resides in the king, if
that king happened to be a Catholic, but that during the so-
vereignty of a Protestant monarch, such power is extinct ? —
It is a right like all others ; whether we call it a right derived
from the law, or a right derived from usage or compact which
ceases by disuse ; and if by a supposition, which is merely
possible, the king upon the throne were to be a Catholic, I
do not think, that thereby this right, formerly residing in his
Sredecessors being Catholics, would accrue to him ; I think it
as been lost by disuse, but it is a right, however, which a
Catholic sovereign could easily obtain, by treating with the
Pope.
Was the right of appointing to the Roman Catholic bishop-
rics of Ireland, ever practically exercised by James the Se-
cond?—Yes, I should think it was; and also by Mary, pre-
vious to the accession of the Stuarts. I cannot state the in-
stances, because I should refer to the history of the church, at
that particular period; and without doing so, I might fall
into an error ; but I am quite confident the right resided in
him, and I should have no hesitation in saying, that it was
exercised by him in more instances than one.
Do you think it was exercised by James the Second, before
his arrival in Ireland ?— Yes ; during the entire of his reign.
From the period of his accession ? — From the period of his
accession till the time of his expulsion from Ireland.
He was at that time head of the church of England ? — He
might also have a right to present to the sees of the church in
Ireland ; but he would not become the head of our church, by
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED, 325
having a right to direct the chapter to elect a certain indivi-
dual to be instituted as bishop by the Pope.
After his abdication, do you think he exercised practically
that right, which the Catholic church still admitted to reside
in him? — I am sure, after his abdication, or his expulsion
from those countries, that he did recommend, whilst in France,
individuals to the Pope, which individuals were appointed to
bishoprics in Ireland ; and not only he, but his son after him.
I could name, but I should rather not, unless the Committee
required it, I could name the last bishop who was appointed
by the Pope to a see in Ireland, at the express recommenda-
tion of the late Pretender.
In the former part of your evidence, you mentioned that
there was a possibility of such an arrangement being made
with respect to the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, in case
Roman Catholic emancipation should be carried, as would
provide for the domestic nomination of the prelates ? — That
such an arrangement could be made, I think is quite certain ;
and there is nothing that I would be more desirous of.
In making that arrangement for domestic appointment,
would you contemplate the election of the Roman Catholic
prelate upon the occurrence of a vacancy, by the clergy be-
longing to the diocese, to the appointment of which he might
be a candidate? — I would contemplate such election to be
made by a certain portion of the clergy of the diocese in which
such vacancy occurred ; but I would also require the con-
currence of the metropolitan and suffragan bishops of the
province in which the vacancy happened to exist. I would beg
to explain myself; I fear 1 cannot do it as satisfactorily as I
could wish. I would not like that the election to a vacant see
should rest with the metropolitan and the suffragan bishops
of the diocese alone, nor would I like that it should be vested
in the clergy of the vacant diocese, to the exclusion of the
metropolitan and the suffragan bishops ; but I would desire
that such election should originate with a certain class of the
clergy of the vacant diocese, and that before it would be
sent forward to the court of Rome, that the metropolitan
and suffragan bishops should have concurrence in it in a cer-
tain way.
Would you think it advisable, under that arrangement, to
retain the office of coadjutor to the bishop ? — That could be
done if, by the arrangement, the coadjutors should be elected
in the same manner as the bishop, on the vacancy of the see.
What would be the nature of the claim which, under this
arrangement, the coadjutor would have to succeed to the va-
cant prelacy? — He would succeed upon the demise of the prin-
326 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED*
cipal, as a matter of right, because the bull of his appoint-
ment to his coadjutorship would go, " We appoint you bishop
of such a place in partibus" as we call it (that is in some
country where Christianity formerly flourished, but where in-
fidelity now prevails) cum jure successionis ; so that his elec-
tion to the coadjutorship would secure to him the succession,
upon the demise of the person to whom he would be ap-
pointed the coadjutor.
Are the coadjutors at present bishops in partibus fidelium?
• — They are, but with right of succession.
Supposing after the election of a coadjutor, it should so
happen, in some individual case, that the coadjutor should
misconduct himself, and that to such a degree, that in the
opinion of the original electors he should be unfit for the pre-
lacy, would his right of succession still be absolute, or with-
out any control on their part ? — It would be without any con-
trol on their part ; but if he committed a canonical fault, he
could be tried for it, and be removed from his right of succes-
sion, as he could be removed from his see.
Where would the trial take place ? — The trial of a bishop is,
• one of the causa majores mentioned in the Council of Sardis, • ?,/
and should be referred to the see of Rome. That council was
held some thirty or more years after the first Council of Nice,
and it decreed that the causes, majores should not be defini-
tively settled without the concurrence of the Pope, whenever
,/ such concurrence was thought necessary by any of the parties
who happened to be aggrieved ; those causa majores included
cases where the faith was concerned or heresy broached,
and also criminal accusations of bishops ; so that when a
bishop is accused of any crime, in the first case, if he be a
suffragan, the charge can be preferred before his metropoli-
tan ; he can appeal from the metropolitan, formerly he could
make such appeal to the provincial council, but as now pro-
vincial councils are seldom or never held, he can appeal from
the metropolitan directly to the Pope ; and that usage has ob-
tained in the Catholic church from the beginning, and was
decreed at Sardis, a little after the middle of the fourth cen-
tury, and still holds good, k $, '2>P»2>' o-v c
Then the evidence by which the person in that situation
would be affected, would be remitted from Ireland to Rome?
—Yes.
Would the evidence be taken upon oath? — The evidence
would be taken upon oath.
Supposing a party summoned before the tribunal of the first
instance, if it may be so called, the tribunal existing in Ire-
land refused to take an oath, would the proceedings be sus-
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 327
pended? — In cases of that kind, we have no remedy, we are
obliged to call in a magistrate, and request of him to admi-
nister an oath to the witness whom we wish to examine, and
when he has done so, the witness is interrogated either through
the magistrate, or by one of us.
Supposing the witness were a member of the Roman Ca-
tholic church, would he be subjected to any ecclesiastical cen-
sure, for demurring to the jurisdiction of the court ? — As to a
censure, I cannot say he would ; but there is some remedy,
there is some means whereby a witness can be obliged to give
testimony in a bishop's court, what it is, as settled by the
law and usage of the Catholic church, I do not at present re-
collect.
Before any arrangement, which provided for the domestic
appointment of the Roman Catholic prelates in Ireland, could
be carried into full effect, would the consent of the see of
Rome be necessary ? — Undoubtedly it would ; because the see
of Rome at present has the right to appoint, and any modifi-
cation of that right could not of course be made, without the
concurrence of the see of Rome.
Would the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland have it in
their power to give a conditional consent to such an arrange-
ment; the condition being, that the consent of the see of
Rome should be subsequently obtained ? — By all means they
could.
You would still propose to reserve the institution of the
bishop to the see of Rome? — Without it, he could not be a
bishop in our church ; he could not exercise any jurisdiction
whatever, unless he received institution from the Pope.
By reserving the institution to the Pope, the Pope would
still retain a discretionary power to reject the bishop who had
been recommended to him, in virtue of the domestic arrange-
ment ; would he not ? — The domestic arrangement would be
one whereby the Pope would bind himself through a treaty,
to give institution to such fit person as would be canonically
elected by the persons named in such treaty. Suppose there
was a concordat, enabling certain persons in Ireland to elect a
bishop to a vacant see, the Pope by agreeing to such concor-
dat, engages to give institution to all persons who may here-
after be elected by such electors as are therein defined, provided
the person elected possesses the necessary qualifications for a
bishop, and be duly elected.
Before any arrangement was made for a payment by the
state of the Roman Catholic prelates and priesthood, would
the consent of the Pope be absolutely necessary ? — By no means,
I should think not at all, for that is a matter of discipline
328 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
with which he has nothing to do ; we can receive our support
from any one that gives it to us, and of course we could re-
ceive it from his Majesty out of the goods of the state.
Supposing the receipt of a provision from the state, were
accompanied, as it must be, by an abandonment of any claim
upon the parishioners, would it be possible to abandon that
claim upon the parishioners, without the consent of the Pope ?
— Certainly it would.
You say the fees upon baptism and upon marriage, now
payable to the priests of the Roman Catholic church, could
be abandoned by them, without having the previous consent
of the Pope? — They can be abandoned by them, without the
consent of the Pope, but there are offerings made at mar-
riages, baptisms, and at the burial of the dead, which are a
usage of the church so ancient, that I do think the clergy
would not resign them ; those at present are much higher
than they need be, and though they are called voluntary, they
are not, strictly speaking, so ; those, however, are not the
only or the principal dues or contributions by which the clergy
are supported, there are other contributions given individually
by the parishioners, which constitute the cnief support of the
priesthood. The contributions of this latter kind could be
given up by the clergy, without consulting any one, and even
the voluntary oblations at marriages and baptisms could, in
my opinion, be relinquished by them ; but those latter, I think
they would not relinquish, because they are as old almost as
Christianity itself, and they exist in every church of whatso-
ever kind, in every nation with which I happen to be ac-
quainted. But the other dues, the individual contributions
from the parishioners at stated times of the year, could be
given up, it would be desirable that they should be given up,
and the clergy might give them up without any reference or
communication whatever upon the subject, with Rome.
You do not think it would be desirable, in any event, to re-
mit altogether the fees upon the performance of the rites of
the church ?— Upon all rites of the church, except baptisms,
marriages, and the burial of the dead.
Those you would retain? — Those I would retain, because
they are an universal custom ; and I do not see why our church
should be the only one in the world that would give up trifling
contributions, which are given in every other church through-
out Christendom.
By what authority are those contributions, of which you last
spoke — namely, the fees upon the ceremonies of marriage and
baptism, regulated ? — They are regulated chiefly by usage ;
they are sometimes defined by a statute made by the bishop ;
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 329
for instance, in the diocese in which I reside, I found those
contributions existing generally ; but there was no uniform
rule, whereby they could be regulated ; and I thought]: it better
for the poor, and also I thought I should best consult the
character and interest of the clergy, by reducing them, in some
degree, to rule ; I therefore regulated what they should be in
most cases, and the manner in which they should be collected ;
in order also to prevent any thing like harsh treatment of the
poor by the clergy, I prohibited, under pain of suspension, any
clergyman from withholding his ministry from any person,
rich or poor, on account of dues or emoluments; so that the
office of the priest must first be discharged, and then the in-
dividual gives what is prescribed by usage, or by the letter of
the statute.
The payment in all the parishes in the diocese, of which you
are the Roman Catholic prelate, is uniform ? — I may say it is
uniform ; there may be some deviations from it ; but they are
very few.
In amount is it uniform ? — When I say uniform, I should
say there is a kind of scale, because the poor man pays
nothing, the man in better circumstances pays something, and
the man whose condition is still more improved, gives a little
more.
If temporalities (by which is meant a pecuniary provision
payable by the Crown) were attached to Roman Catholic sees,
and to Roman Catholic parishes in Ireland, would it be incon-
sistent with the doctrine or discipline of the Roman Catholic
church, to admit any interference on the part of the Protest-
ant sovereign of this country in the appointments? — It would
be inconsistent with the discipline of the Roman Catholic
church to admit, in such cases, the interference of a Protest-
ant sovereign in such appointments.
Would that arrangement, in your opinion, be inconsistent
with the discipline of the Roman Catholic church, even if it
had the sanction of the Pope ? — Were he to give his sanction
to it, I think we should oppose the matter here. I think he
would not sanction it; but were he to do so, we should not
agree to it ; for my part, I would not : I should resign the
office that I hold, rather than assent to such a thing ; I would
first remonstrate against it, I would remonstrate a second time
against it, and if this were not sufficient to ward it off, I
should certainly resign my office ; and I hope there is not a
bishop in Ireland who would not do the same.
You are no doubt aware, that arrangements of that nature,
in cases where there are temporalities attached to preferments
in the Roman Catholic church, but where the sovereign is not
330 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
a member of that church, are admitted in some countries in
Europe ? — I know of arrangements of that kind, though I do
not know the nature of -them exactly; but I know there are
some arrangements that seem to be of that kind, which have
been lately entered into between the Pope and the Emperor of
Russia, and also between the Pope and the King of Prussia,
and I believe between the Pope and some of the lesser States
in Germany, being Protestant ; and also that there has been
a treaty carried on for some time, between the Pope and the
King of the Netherlands, having for its object such an ar-
rangement as has been mentioned ; but such treaty I believe
at present is suspended, if not entirely broken off. I am not
acquainted with the circumstances of the Russian empire, nor
with those of the kingdom of Prussia, and therefore I can give
no information as to the conduct of the Pope, in entering into
such arrangement ; but knowing the state of my own country,
and having the religious feelings that I have, though such an
arrangement were to be considered practicable by the Pope,
and even wise, I should find it my duty, as an individual, to
act as I have mentioned.
By interference, you mean all interference direct or indi-
rect?— I mean all interference direct or indirect. Were the
sovereign of this realm a Catholic, I should be very averse to
his having the appointment of bishops vested in him ; but his
being of a different religion, makes me think that I could not
consistently at all, with the principles of my religion, consent
to his having any right to interfere directly or indirectly with
the appointment of bishops.
Will you be good enough to explain the state of the law of
the Roman Catholic church in Ireland, with respect to mar-
riages ? — Marriages have so many relations, that I cannot well
understand in what sense I am to answer that question.
In what authority exists the power of dissolving a mar-
riage ? — We have no authority whatever to dissolve a mar-
riage ; once validly contracted, we recognise in no power on
earth, Pope or Council, or the Church collective, any autho-
rity whatever, or power to dissolve a marriage.
Not in case of adultery 1 — Every bishop has the power, upon
adultery being proved, to order a separation, quoad thorum et
habitationem ; but we neither have ourselves, nor do we
recognise in the Pope, any power to dissolve a marriage,
quoad mnculum ; that is, the bond of marriage, according to
our belief, is indissoluble.
That is, it would be impossible, under any circumstances,
for one of the parties to make a second valid marriage, the
other party being still living ?— It never could be.
DB, DOYLE EXAMINED. 331
Is there no power in the Pope to give a dispensation from
the general principle of the law in the Roman Catholic church?
— There is no power in the Pope to dispense with a law of
God or of Nature ; and we consider that the law of God ren-
ders marriage indissoluble. The Greek church, and the
Church of England, hold that marriage can be dissolved when
one of the parties commits adultery ; but the Catholic church
holds that marriage, even by adultery, cannot be dissolved.
Will you be good enough to explain to the Committee, in
what manner the bill, which is quite familiar to you by the
name of the Burial Bill, which passed last session, has been
carried into effect in your diocese ? — With regard to the
Burial Bill, it has not been carried into effect in any case, in
the diocese where I live. There has not been leave sought for
from the Protestant rector, to have the funeral rites per-
formed, except in one instance, and there the permission was
applied for by the father of the deceased, which father hap-
pened to be a Protestant ; but no Catholic clergyman in the
diocese where I live, has at any time applied to a Protestant
rector for the permission which the Act requires that he
should apply for ; and therefore I may say, that the bill has
not in any one instance in that diocese had effect.
Is there any objection, on the part of Roman Catholic
priests, to make that application to Protestant rectors ? —
There is a very strong objection.
What is the nature of that objection ? — It arises from feel-
ing, I should think, because the Catholic priest conceives,
that upon giving notice to the sexton or person having charge
of the burial-ground, that a corpse was to be interred, he
ought to have a right to go there and perform such service ;
and he does consider, that his being obliged to make appli-
cation for leave to the Protestant rector to perform the fune-
ral service, and to have the Protestant rector fix the time
when such service can be performed, the priest does conceive
this to be an act of submission upon his part, from which his
feelings recoil. The Act, however, I think might very easily
be so amended as to meet the views of all parties.
In what manner is the burial service performed at present ?
— At present we do not perform any burial-service in the
burial-place. The service for the dead we perform in the
chapel, or sometimes in the house of the deceased, and then
the corpse is taken to the burial-ground, and interred without
any ceremony. However, when the grave is about to be
closed, if there be a clergyman present, he recites a short
psalm, with a prayer ; and, if there be no clergyman present,
one of the laity does this ; we do not now, nor did we at any
332 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
time, perform the burial-service ; it is merely a common
prayer that we recite.
What distinction does the priest draw between the right to
perform the Burial service in the church-yard, and the right
to perform the Marriage service in the church ; does he draw
any such distinction ? — I never heard him draw the distinc-
tion or make the comparison ; and I have never made it in
my own mind.
Do you think that one right stands upon the same footing as
the other ? — I do not conceive it does ; our marriages in Ire-
land need not be performed in the church by a Protestant
clergyman, we can perform them where and when we please ;
therefore with us, in our common ideas, the one thing and the
other are not naturally joined together, nor do we naturally
make a comparison between them ; but we do conceive that
the rector of the parish has a just and reasonable right to his
church, and that he can exclude from it or admit into it such
persons *'as he thinks proper, except such as have an
established right to go there ; but we conceive that every
Christian in the parish has a right to be buried in the parish
church-yard ; and we conceive, that as the friends of the
deceased have a right to inter his corpse there, that they should
also have a right to perform, either by themselves or their
clergyman, such funeral rights as their faith would ap-
prove of.
You have the power, as a Roman Catholic prelate, to con-
secrate any ground for the purpose of burial ? — I have, and
have exercised it in many instances ; however, I should rather
much that the Funeral Service Bill were so mitigated as to
meet our views, that a new line of distinction, as it were,
might not be drawn between Protestants and Catholics ; for,
though I have consecrated some church-yards, I always did so
with reluctance and pain, because I thought I was thereby
keeping open the separation, which was too wide, between
men whom I would be most anxious to see united, both whilst
living, and even after death.
Have you found that there was a greater Disposition on the
part of the Catholic inhabitants to bury their dead in the
church-yard of the parish church, even though they could not
have the advantage of the religious service of the church
there, than to avail themselves of the consecrated ground ?-—
No, I have not observed it ; they have a strong partiality for
burying their dead in the place where their ancestors also lie ;
but as in our church there is a practice of praying for the
dead, and as our newly-consecrated grounds are always adjoin-
ing chapels, people find a consolation in burying their dead in
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 333
them, because when they go to assist at mass, they can also
pray for the souls of their friends who are interred there-
abouts; so that one feeling as it were counteracts the other,
and you scarcely know which the people would prefer.
You have stated, that you thought the Burial Bill might be
modified so as to meet the views of both parties ; will you
have the goodness to state how you think it might be modi-
fied ? — At present we are required by the Burial Bill to obtain
from the rector permission to have the burial-service per-
formed, and he is to fix the time when it is to be performed ;
this is attended with great inconvenience ; in the first place
the clergyman might not be at home, or if at home, he might
not be prepared to give an answer ; and in the second place,
if he were not an agreeable man, (and unhappily in Ireland
individuals of every class and persuasion are sometimes in ill
humour with each other,) he might fix a time which would be
very inconvenient. All this could be remedied, if we were
entitled by law to bury our dead in the church-yard, by giving
notice to the sexton or person having the care of the church-
yard, suppose twelve hours, or any reasonable time before the
interment. It might also be enacted, that we should not bury
our dead there during the time of divine service, or for some
time before it or after it ; that simple regulation would make
the Bill, in my opinion, perfectly acceptable to the Catholics ;
nor do I think it would trench in any way upon the rights or
prerogatives or honours of the Protestant clergy.
Would you be disposed to leave a negative to the Pro-
testant rector ? — No ; because I conceive all the parishioners
have a right to be interred in their parish church-yard.
Is it not the practice in Ireland, for the funeral of a Roman
Catholic, even of the lowest class, to be attended by a very
great number of his relatives and friends ? — It was rather
than is the practice at present ; for at present the people are
throwing aside some of their ancient usages, and, amongst
the rest, that of attending wakes and funerals in great num-
bers, though the attendance is still considerable.
Would not it be very difficult to place any restriction by
law, upon the number of attendants at a funeral ? — They
never attend in such numbers as to cause inconvenience to the
parson, when they go the church-yard ; for all the church-
yards are sufficiently spacious to contain and to accommodate,
if I might so say, double the number that go ; 1 do not think
any inconvenience could arise from the number which might
go into the church -yard.
You have stated, that you would not be disposed to leave
any negative to the clergyman, as a matter of right, to refuse
334 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
permission to perform the service of the Catholic church in
the church-yard ; but should not you think it convenient to
leave him a negative in point of time, seeing that two burial
services, one Protestant and the other Catholic, might come
at the same moment ; or there might be some other good
reason why the service should not be performed at the time
demanded ? — I should be satisfied that he would have such
right of negative, provided he expressed a cause ; because
then it would appear, that the right was not resorted to
through a motive of causing inconvenience, but through one
of real necessity. But, as I conceive a right to exist on the
part of the parishioners of being buried there, when this
right is to be at all limited, I should like that the reason why
it would be so limited were clearly expressed by the person
putting the limitation.
Is not the feeling of attachment, on the part of the Irish
peasantry, very strong to particular burying-grounds ; which
particular burying-grounds are frequently those attached to
Protestant churches ? — I think there is a strong attachment,
in the minds of many Roman Catholics, to particular burial-
grounds ; but I think, in general, those are not burial-grounds
attached to churches where service is actually performed.
Still the case might sometimes happen? — It might some-
times happen, but not generally.
Do you recollect an instance, in which a Protestant clergy-
man has refused permission, either before or since the passing
of what is called the Burial Bill ? — No application having
been made to them within the diocese where I live, of course
they could not have refused ; I may have heard reports of ap-
plications being made, and refusals being given ; but those re-
ports I do not attend to ; I cannot say I gave them credit.
Were any obstacles at any time, to your knowledge, thrown
in the way of the celebration of Catholic funerals, by any of
the Protestant ministers, previous to the passing of the Bill ?
— No such obstacles have been opposed in the diocese where
I live, because, in that diocese, we have not at any time per-
formed the burial-service within the church-yard ; but, were
we disposed to have performed it, I do not think, from the
general temper of the Protestant clergy in that diocese, that
we would have met with any obstacle ; for, at their hands,
we have generally received kind treatment, and have had no
dispute with them upon such subjects.
In other parts of Ireland, are you aware whether the
Catholic ministers have contented themselves with celebrating
the service in the house of the deceased, or in other places
than the burial-grounds ? — I have not heard that in any one
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 335
case the Catholic clergy were not satisfied with performing
the burial-service in their own chapel, or in the house of the
deceased ; and, wherever impediments were thrown in their
way, or confusion created, it was upon their reciting the
prayers that I mentioned before, at the time of the interment,
and not upon their attempting to perform the burial-service,
which I believe truly they do not attempt to perform in any
part of Ireland.
On those occasions, do the Catholic clergy attend in vest-
ments, or in any peculiar pontifical dress? — They wear no
kind of vestments, or clerical dress ; they appeared in short
clothes, such as I now wear, or in clothes very like to them.
When we do perform the funeral service according to the
rite of our own church, we (that is, clergymen) wear a black
sutan, with a white surplice over it, and over that a stole.
Are there any instances, or have there been any within
your knowledge, where the clergy have claimed a right of
entering the church, for the celebration of a funeral ? — I have
never heard of such.
Then, in instances where the corpse of a Catholic was to be
interred within the church, in a vault for instance, or within
the church, as is the case with many families, the Catholic
clergyman would not claim a rite of reciting the psalm or
hymn, according to the usage of his own church, within the
church? — I should suppose not within the church.
Have any instances occurred within your knowledge, where
the time of the celebration of divine service, according to the
Protestant rite, has been chosen as the time also for a cele-
bration of a Catholic funeral in the church-yard? — Not one.
In case of a Bill of Divorce passing, to enable a Catholic to
marry again, would you consider that valid or able to hold
effect? — I would consider it as valid, according to the law of
the country ; and I would consider the issue of such marriage
as entitled to such property as might devolve upon them ;
and I would do all in my power, as a clergyman, to preserve
such rights to them ; but I would not consider the children of
such marriage legitimate in the ecclesiastical sense.
In case an arrangement were made by the government, for
paying stipends to the Catholic clergy, on the understanding
and the regulations mentioned by you' in a former answer, is
it your opinion that the Catholic clergy would decline receiv-
ing the stipend now paid to them voluntarily by their flocks,
marriage fees, baptism and burial fees excepted? — The Ca-
tholic clergy are always amenable to such regulations as are
prescribed for them by their own prelates ; and, if such pro-
vision were made, I think the prelates might be called on or
336 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
invited to make such regulations for their clergy, as would
prevent the latter from collecting or requiring, or receiving
such contributions as have been mentioned, always excepting
burial fees, offerings at baptisms and marriages.
Then the only security that the Catholic flock could receive
for not being called upon by the Catholic clergy, to pay those
which are called voluntary fees, would depend upon the
influence and the opinion of the Catholic prelates ? — Yes, the
influence or opinion; but not these alone, because the Ca-
tholic prelates will have it in their power to make it obliga-
tory on their clergy not to require, and even not to receive
such contributions ; but I can also add, that if the Catholic
prelates neglected to make such regulations, the people, see-
ing that the clergy had a sufficient maintenance without their
contributions, would withhold such contributions from them,
not universally but generally.
Is it your opinion that the Catholic prelates would think it
right to make such a regulation ? — I can only speak for
myself ; I would think it right to do so, and I would do so.
Do you think that it would be, in the eye of the Roman
Catholic church, competent to the legislature to enact, that
no such offerings should be made ? — I think not.
That is a question of church discipline, which you think
ought to be reserved for the prelates of Ireland ? — Yes.
Would you not think it a just cause for withholding the
stipend granted bylaw, if such offerings were received? — I
mentioned, when before spoken to of the stipend, that I did not
think the clergy, I spoke only as an individual, but I said that
I myself would not receive any stipend whatever, unless it was
secured to me by law ; now, if that were the case, how could
it be withdrawn when a person received those contributions.
There should be a special provision, and a tribunal created,
wherein the supposed offence should be tried, and there would
be much machinery attending it ; I would think it therefore
a matter of regulation which ought not to be made by law,
but which ought to be made through the other medium I have
been just speaking of.
Would there be any difficulty in allowing an information to
be made before the usual courts of law, of such offerings
being received by any Catholic clergyman, and on such
charge being proved, that the stipend should be withheld ? —
I think it could be done ; but I think it would riot be a good
way of proceeding in the matter, because the other mode is
very simple, and would be very effectual.
Are the dues on baptisms, marriages, and funerals, in their
amount, voluntary or otherwise ; that is, is the individual
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 337
i
obliged to pay a fee of a certain amount, according to his
situation in life, on each of those occasions ; or is the amount
of it left to his own option ? — There is almost in every diocese
in Ireland, a sum fixed more by usage than by a positive
regulation ; as to the sum to be paid when a marriage is cele-
brated, a pauper pays nothing at all ; a person in little better
circumstances pays, for instance, 5s. ; one a little more ad-
vanced in circumstances, may pay 10<?., very often 16s. 3d.,
sometimes a guinea ; I do not know that in any diocese in
Ireland, any person, of whatsoever rank he may be, whether
rich or poor, can be obliged, by usage, to pay more than a
guinea ; but it often happens that an opulent person being
married, gives more than that to the priest.
Is the party obliged not to give less than a certain sum ? —
No ; he can withhold all, if he pleases.
Will you state from what sources the income of a Catholic
priest is derived ? — The contributions by individuals residing-
within his parish, at particular stated seasons of the year,
twice in the year.
Is the sum at each period defined and known ? — Not defined ;
take, for instance, the head of a family who is a farmer, sup-
tpose, and whose family may consist of six or eight persons,
jail of whom are to be attended by the priest, such farmer pays
an English shilling, which is thirteen-pence in Ireland ; some-
| times he gives two shillings, and if he be a person in better
[circumstances, that is, wealthier and more substantial, he
Imay give 10s. about Christmas, and 10s. also at Easter; there
are very few who give more.
Will you tell the Committee how the Catholic prelates are
ipaid? — We hold one parish, sometimes two ; and we employ
clergymen to perform the ordinary duties in those, we our-
selves labouring to assist them as much as we can. Besides
Ithat, we receive from each clergyman in the diocese, once
ja-year, a certain contribution; for instance, I hold parishes,
lone in Carlow, and the other in Tullow, in the county of
jCarlow; I keep three curates employed in each of those
'parishes, whom I am obliged to pay, and the little that remains
iafter they are supported, I receive myself; in addition to that,
;it Easter or thereabout, I receive from each of the parish
priests in the diocese, I think about three guineas, and from
i>ach of the curates about one, and the sum total of my
[ncome derived from those sources is generally between 450/%
|ind 500£. a-year ; at the same time, I may be permitted to
jtate to the Committee, that the income of a bishop is charged
vith very heavy incumbrances, considering its quantity, for I
jim obliged to contribute to every charitable institution, to
838 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
assist in the erection and supporting of schools, to feed a con-
siderable number of the poor, and in fact, if it were not for
some help which I occasionally receive from friends, I could
not afford to keep a house or a servant ; however, there are a
greater number of poor living about me than about most
others, and my income is not so considerable as that of many
other bishops in the kingdom.
Is the same mode of paying the bishops adopted in all parts
of Ireland 1 — I believe it is the same in nearly all, except that
in some dioceses, particularly in the south of Ireland, the
bishops receive something like a contribution from the priest,
out of the fees he receives at marriages ; there is no such
usage, however, in the diocese where I live, or in that of
Dublin or Ossory.
Is the amount of fees paid on marriages, in the other dio-
ceses, as far as you are informed, the same as that you state to
prevail in your own diocese? — I think in most of the dioceses it
is somewhat similar ; but in the dioceses in the south of Ireland,
besides the marriage fees, there is a usage of what they call
A Wedding Cake ; I have heard of that, but I am only ac-
quainted with it by hearsay. The nature of this usage is, that
a cake is distributed in small pieces amongst the people who
assist at the wedding, and each person makes an offering
when he receives the cake : this sometimes amounts to a con-
siderable sum, at other times it is very trivial ; but we have
no such thing among us, excepting a few parishes ; it is chiefly
confined to the south of Ireland, but where it prevails, it is a
source of very considerable emolument.
Have you not heard that in many instances the amount of
that is very considerable ? — I have heard that in many in-
stances the amount is very considerable.
To what amount have you ever heard ? — The greatest amount
that I have ever heard was 4QI. : I have heard that it did
amount to that sum in one instance.
What is the amount of fee on a burial ? — In some instances
there is an office celebrated for the repose of the soul of the
deceased ; this office in my diocese cannot be celebrated unless
at least flix clergymen attend, then the parish priest is en-
titled to get \L and each of the assistant priests 10s. each, and
if the person be poor only one priest attends to perform the
service; at each service he generally gets 10s. and if it be the
parish priest half-a-guinea, and sometimes 15s.
Is the saying of masses for the repose of the souls of the
dead, a considerable source of income also ? — It is on account
of saying mass and assisting at the funeral that the priest re-
ceives this contribution which I have mentioned*
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 339
From what fees do you conceive the parish priest receives
the larger part of his income ; from the fees upon marriage,
baptisms and burials, or from the Christmas and Easter fees?
— From the Christmas and Easter fees much the larger part.
Can you state the average income of a parish priest in your
diocese ? — I could very nearly. I have classed the parishes,
I and I have caused a return to be made to me of the income of
I each ; there were some large parishes in the diocese, all of
| which, except one or two, have become vacant since my ap-
I pointment, and those I have divided ; there are then at pre-
sent, I believe, four parishes where the priest's income is about
400£, a year ; there are, as I recollect, (1 may be mistaken)
fourteen parishes where the parish priest's income exceeds
200/. by something ; in all the other parishes of the diocese I
think it is less, and may amount to from IQQl. to 200/.
How many parishes are there ? — Forty-two.
How is the appointment to a Roman Catholic parish ar-
j ranged ? — When the incumbent dies, the bishop has the power
of appointing any priest of the diocese to succeed to him ; we
have two classes of clergymen, the one are the incumbents or
parish priests, and the other the coadjutors or assistant
I priests ; when a parish becomes vacant, if it be a place where
| we wish a man of experience and information and pious ha-
i bits of life to reside, and that we have not a person of this
I description amongst the curates, we tajse him from some other
| parish where he has shewn himself to be possessed of those
| qualities, and we appoint him to the vacant living ; but if it
I be a parish where a person not specially gifted is necessary,
I we take from amongst the curates some man who has laboured
! for several years, and whose morals have been good, and who
has a capacity for giving instruction in public, and place him
'I there ; but if a curate should at any time have been immoral
I or not be capable of preaching, we leave him in the rank of
i curate all his life time.
Supposing an arrangement were made for the payment, bjr
i the State, of the Roman Catholic Priesthood, it would proba
! bly be desirable to have a gradation of salary proportioned to
: the extent of the parish, and the duties to be performed in it
—Unquestionably it would be necessary to have a gradation
but I think that gradation should not so much be made ac-
i cording to the extent of the parish, and the duties to be per-
! formed, as to the parish having within it a town, or being a
J place where a man of better information, and of more im-
>l proved habits should reside ; those who live in towns are ex-
i i posed to more expense, for they must dress better ; they must
i pay a high rent for a residence, and they are obliged occa-
z %
,
340 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
sionally to entertain their brother clergymen or others coming
that way, and therefore they require a larger income. Now
it may be, that in a country part, suppose a mountainous
tract, the parish is of greater extent, and requires more la-
borious duties to be performed ; but here the priest is very
retired ; the priest is exposed to little or no expense ; and
though he has more duty, he is a man of less conspicuous cha-
racter, and one whom I should postpone to the other descrip-
tion of persons ; there should be a classification of them, but
that classification should not be regulated by the extent of the
parish and the duty to be performed, but by the local situation
of the town or place.
Supposing that classification to be established upon the
principle which you have last adverted to, do you think i(;
would be absolutely necessary to leave to the bishop of the
diocese, the exclusive determination as to transferring an indi-
vidual from one parish that stood low in the classification, to
another that stood higher in the amount of salary ? — Unques-
tionably so ; unless all subordination were done away, as well
as all power of rewarding merit and good morals ; for unless
the Catholic church were in some degree republicanized, it
would be necessary to have a power left in the bishop, I can-
not say vested in him, because he now has it, to translate in-
dividuals.
Excluding all interference, direct or indirect, on the part of
the Crown or the State? — Literally so ; the Crown would be
annoyed if it were to be occupied with the little detail of our
business ; this detail would not be worth looking after, and would
be very troublesome ; besides, it would be impossible for any
man in the government to be acquainted with the private life of
individuals, orfcto know who was fit or who was unfit to be ap-
pointed ; for instance, I had, whilst professor of theology, the
care of educating the greater part of the clergymen of the
diocese, and I am still obliged to inquire into their theological
. knowledge, to ascertain the manner in which they discharge
their duties ; to receive the reports of the rural vicars, as to
their morals and conduct ; so that I know as intimately the
life and habits, and conduct of every individual of the clergy
under me, as a father can be acquainted with the life and ha-
bits of his own son. It is this knowledge which enables me
to place each of them in that situation for which he is parti-
cularly adapted ; and it must be very clear to the Committee,
that no government, or agent of government, could have this
information ; and therefore no such agent could be as compe-
tent as I am to appoint these men to places or offices.
Should the government have the power of promotion ?— • I
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED, 341
should advert to the two classes of priests we employ ; the one
are parish priests, the other are coadjutors ; we have an arbi-
trary power in us to remove from his situation a curate, but we
cannot suspend him without a canonical cause ; that is, we
cannot take from him the right of saying mass, unless upon
cause shewn ; but the parish priests have a title to their office,
and from that office we cannot remove them, unless upon a
charge defined by law being proved against them, and then
we pass sentence upon them, and either reprimand them, sus-
pend them for a time, or suspend them altogether.
Where is that cause tried ? — By the bishop.
In your opinion, does not every reason for making the pro-
vision for the clergy of the Roman Catholic church inalienable,
apply to the smallest parish in Ireland ? — Unless you exempt
the parochial clergy, in some degree from the authority of the
bishop, to which they are now subject, you should make their
receiving such salary depend upon their bringing with them to
the person who pays them, a certificate from the bishop ; that
I would think, indispensable ; and except in that respect, the
provision should, in my opinion, be inalienable in every pa-
rish.
When you say that the salary should be irrevocable, you
mean as attached to the station ? — As attached to the sta-
tion.
Will you be good enough to tell the Committee, what por-
tion of the priests' income you think is derived from the fees
upon marriage, baptism, and burial in the case of the largest
living in your diocese ; for instance, the income of which is
400/. a year, what portion of that is derived from the fees
upon marriage, baptism, and burial ? — I should think in that
living from burials, marriages, and baptisms, about 100/. a
year would be derived.
Which fees you think it would not be advisable to abolish
by a law, accompanying the payment of the Roman Catholic
clergy ? — Those fees would be greatly reduced, if there were a
provision made for the clergy, because the people then seeing
that the clergy had a support, would give something upon
those occasions, but that something would be very small. For
instance at marriages, the greater part of the people at present
give something ; but I am sure, if there were a provision for
the clergy, and that the people saw they were riot totally de»
pendent upon those contributions, there are only the wealthy
portion of them who would give any thing at marriages. The
same I might say of baptisms ; and also, with some degree of
limitation, of funerals. So that in that parish, where the
fees derived from baptisms, funerals, and marriages, may
have amounted, during the last year to 100/, I am very <x>nfir
342 DR, DOYLE EXAMINED.
dent, that if a provision for the clergy were made, those con-
tributions would be diminished by one-half.
Do you think, by reason of the certainty of the payment, the
certainty growing out of the payment of the clergy by the state,
the parish priest would be more satisfied to receive a reduced
income than that which he now is in the habit of collecting?
—Upon my word, I do not consider myself at all competent
to answer as to the feelings of the priests ; for, on money
matters, I am a very bad judge of other men's feelings; I feel
no interest myself about money ; but I know, that of the Ca-
tholic clergy, there are some who do ; I should not like to
answer for them.
As in any arrangement that might be made, it must be left
entirely discretionary to the party, whether he would receive
it or not, could the bishops compel the clergymen of their dio-
cese to receive it ? — The bishops could compel them indirectly,
because the bishops could make a rule, such as I before men-
tioned, prohibiting generally throughout their dioceses, priests
from receiving the individual contributions to which I before
alluded ; and no priest could, after such regulation had been
made by the bishop, continue to receive it within his diocese,
so that it would not depend upon the will of the priests.
Might not the bishop, at the time he appoints to a living,
when the possessor of it has died off, appoint the new incum-
bent upon the condition of his receiving this reduced income,
which should be settled by legislative provision? — Yes, he
could, indeed.
Would it be a great relief for the peasantry to be relieved
from a double impost, the payment of the clergy of two per-
suasions ? — Unquestionably.
Have you any idea of the actual number of parish priests
and coadjutors in Ireland ? — I believe the number of parish
priests are about one thousand, and, at an average, I should
suppose that each of them has a coadjutor. In some parishes,
the parish priest has no coadjutor, in others, the parish priest
may have two.
Are not the parishes in the Roman Catholic church, gene-
rally speaking, the same as those in the Protestant ? — I might
say generally so ; but not universally by any means.
Are there various unions of parishes in the Catholic church ?
— Various unions.
Have you ever made a calculation as to the probable amount
of expense that would accrue in making this legislative pro-
vision ? — No, I could not possibly ; because I could not know
what it would be in the contemplation of government to give
to each ; I have never turned it in my mind, I have only heard
it spoken of since I came to London.
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 343
You mentioned, that in filling up vacancies in parishes, the
bishops selected those of their diocese whom they thought the
most deserving ; do you mean to say they never go out of the
diocese to select ? — They have a power of doing so, but I have
not known any case wherein they have exercised that power; I
should not consider myself at liberty to go out of the diocese
where I live, because the clergymen officiating within the IX*
diocese consider, and I also consider, that they have a right
to such livings as may happen to become vacant; so that to
bring in a stranger, and exclude them, would in my mind be
unjust.
Are they first designated for the dioceses, by performing the
duties of coadjutor ? — They are designated for the dioceses at
the time of their ordination, which must be previous to their
being appointed to serve in that capacity.
Do they always serve the office of curates or coadjutors be-
fore they are made parish priests ? — I have not known, in the
diocese where I live, any priest to be appointed to a parish,
till he had served for some time, I might say for some years,
as curate.
Is there a chapter in your diocese ? — There is no chapter in
my diocese.
Are there chapters in many of the Catholic dioceses ?— •
There are.
Does the bishop name to the offices in the chapter ?— -To all
offices, except to that of dean.
Who names to that of dean ? — The Pope appoints to the
office of dean.
Is not the office of dean in general attached to a particular
parish in the diocese ? — Not attached to^ a particular parish
generally.
Have the bishops in Ireland, who are appointed by the
Pope after domestic nomination, been nominated in Ireland
by the chapter, or by the inferior clergy ? — In no case have
they been nominated or appointed by the chapter alone ; but
they have in some cases been elected by chapters, and then,
they have been recommended by the metropolitan and suffra-
gan bishops of the province in which the vacancy existed. In
other cases, such persons have been elected by the parish
priests of the vacant diocese, and the metropolitan and suffra-
gan bishops concurred in the election ; in other places, they
have been elected by all the serving clergy of the vacant dio-
cese ; and the person so elected by those clergymen has after-
wards been recommended by the bishops ; for instance, I was
recommeded to the See of Rome by the parish priests of the
diocese in which I live, and by the metropolitan and all his
suffragans.
344 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Do you mean, the recommendation of the metropolitan and
all the suffragans followed the recommendation by the parish
priests ? — They happened, in my case, to be, as it were, simul-
taneous ; the metropolitan and suffragans resolved to recom-
mend me to the Pope, and this resolution they adopted and
signed ; but knowing that the clergy were about to assemble
to elect a person, they kept the matter secret till such election
did take place: the clergy assembled, and they also elected
me ; their instrument of election was placed in the hands of
the metropolitan ; he transmitted it to Rome, with that of
himself and suffragans, and the appointment followed.
When you state, that objection would be felt to any inter-
ference of the state in the nomination of Catholic bishops,
either directly or indirectly, do you mean to say, that any ob-
jection of a similar kind would lie against making it impera-
tive that no bishop could be made in Ireland, except he received
his nomination from one or other of those bodies ? — I should
have no objection to that ; on the contrary, I should be glad
of it.
To reserve to the see of Rome the power of institution only ?
—The power of institution, in this way: in Ireland, they do
not elect one only ; they transmit always to Rome the names
of three persons, so that the Pope has the power to choose
between them ; the names of the persons elected are placed
one after the other, on a piece of paper, and he has, in every
instance, appointed the person whose name happened to be
at the head of the list : however, I have stated before, that
the Pope has the power to appoint, independent of that re-
commendation ; but we would be glad, that the right which
we now exercise, by courtesy or usage, were secured to us by
a concordat.
Has not he done so, in some instances, among the Irish
prelates ? — Certainly not.
Was the present Catholic primate elected by any body[in
Ireland? — He was, I believe, recommended to the see of Rome
by every Catholic bishop in Ireland, except one.
Was he a bishop in Ireland before he was appointed ? — No ;
he had been at the Irish college at Salamanca previous to his
appointment ; upon the breaking up of that establishment, he
returned to Ireland ; and after he had been here between one
year and two (the see of Armagh happening to be vacant at
that time), the prelates in Ireland, with many of whom he
was acquainted, considered him a very fit and proper person
to fill that vacancy ; and as they had a meeting at that time in
Kilkenny, upon some business, I believe to protest against a
rescript which came from Rome, signed by some officer there,
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 345
called Quarantotti, with reference to a negative power in the
Crown to appoint to bishoprics in Ireland ; I think it was
there, I do not speak positively, that the bishops agreed to
recommend Doctor Curtis as a proper person to fill the see of
Armagh ; arid as there were some bishops not then present,
these were applied to, and they allowed their names, to be
affixed to the instrument : it was upon that recommendation
that the present Catholic primate was appointed.
In that rescript you allude to, was not the power of the
Crown to interfere with the nomination of bishops, recog-
nised as not inconsistent with the discipline of the Catholic
church ? — It was recognised by a man who outstepped his
authority, by this Quarantotti, who was incompetent to de-
cide upon a matter of so much moment ; but though it had
happened to have proceeded from higher authority in Rome,
we would have acted as we did ; that is, the prelates would,
for I was not then a bishop ; they would have remonstrated as
they did.
How long have you been a bishop ? — Unhappily too long,
for my own peace ; six years.
Are the Committee to understand from you, that this re-
script of Quarantotti's did not come from the see of Rome 1
— It did come from the see of Rome, but the Pope at that
time was prisoner in France, and he vested his spiritual juris-
diction in several individuals in Rome, first in one and then
provisionally in others ; so that in case the first and second
and third happened to be removed by the French from Rome,
some person might remain to administer the affairs of the
church ; the first individual, and I believe the second, who
were entitled to do so, were removed by the French ; this
Quarantotti, who was an obscure individual at that time,
happened to remain ; he had those powers, and began to ex-
ercise them, and not being at all acquainted with our affairs,
gave this rescript, upon an application being made to him by
some interested person ; and as soon as we received it, we
protested against it.
He was a Cardinal, was he not ? — He was afterwards ap-
pointed Cardinal ; he had some merit with the Pope, but his
appointment was not the reward of his conduct towards us.
What rank did he hold in the church at that time ?— I do
not know exactly; I believe he was what is called A Roman
Monsignore ; he was attached to some collegiate church, or
held some situation in a public office.
But although you state what your own objections would be,
and the unanimous objections of the Irish prelates to such a
rescript, you are aware that the principle of that rescript
346 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
has been acted upon in the concordats which have taken place
between the Pope and the Protestant states ; that it is a doc-
trine recognised by the see of Rome itself, in treaties it has
made? — I stated, with reference to the Pope treating with the
Emperor of Russia and the King of Prussia, that I am
unacquainted with the circumstances of their countries, or
the motives which influenced his Holiness. I can therefore
neither approve or disapprove of what may have been done,
but as regards my own country, I am quite decided.
Was not the principle upon which that rescript, of Quar-
rantotti's was founded, the principle to which you say the
Catholic prelates would object ? — Being ignorant of those
treaties, and the provisions of them, I cannot say whether-
the principle was the same or not.
Is not the general principle in that rescript the interference
of a Protestant sovereign in the appointment of bishops? —
Circumstances affect principles, so as almost to change them
in their operation ; I could not therefore recognise the prin-
ciple, because it may be so modified, as to be changed alto-
gether in its operation, from what it would be, in the view
we take of it, as regards our own country.
Do not you think there might be great objections to making
the appointment to Roman Catholic prelacies in Ireland, an
elective appointment ? — Yes, it is upon that account I hesi-
tated so much to answer a question that was put to me, be-
cause knowing well as I do, from the history of the church,
the great evils which arise from the right of election being
vested in bodies, if such a right of election were settled re-
gularly by concordat, it should be liable to checks; and in
fact such as would descend very minutely, both into the qua-
lity of the electors, and the number and description of them ;
but that is a matter which would depend upon the prudence
of the persons arranging such concordat, about which I might
never be consulted; therefore, feeling as I do, that it is a
subject of great difficulty, and one of which I myself would
be scarcely able to treat, I should much rather withhold the
opinions I entertain about it.
The Committee infer from your last answer, and from a
former answer, that you think this arrangement could only be
satisfactorily made by a concordat with the Pope ? — I think
so, but I think such concordat could be most easily made ;
and I should be most anxious that it were made, because it
would secure to us always a domestic prelacy, and it would
remove from us the possibility of the Pope ever interfering
more than he now does in the appointments to our church.
Do you think that the Catholic church of Ireland is more
DR, DOYLE EXAMINED. 347
or less independent of the Pope, than other Roman Catholic
churches existing in other countries ? — I think we are more
independent in a certain way, and more dependant in an-
other, We are more dependant, because the Pope does not
at present, and he could scarcely presume to nominate any
one except such person as we recommend ; we are therefore
very independent, because we have the election of our own
prelates in our own hands, and it would be morally impossible
to take from us that right. But we are more dependant than
other churches, in another way ; for instance, in the church
of France, the king has the appointment of the bishops, the
Pope has only the power to give institution ; there the church
is national, the appointment being in the hands of the sove-
reign. We are more dependant, therefore, than the French
church, because the Pope has the naked right of appointing
in our church, without consulting us ; and though I say it
would be morally impossible for him to exercise that right,
yet I think it an evil that he has it ; and his having it, makes
our church in that sense more dependant upon him than the
church of France is, because there the Pope is obliged to give
institution to the person if found fit, who is recommended by
the sovereign. 3*,^^, <*v%v**s*v
Veneris 25° die Martii, 1825.
LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR.
The Right Reverend James Doyle, D. D. Titular Bishop of
Kildare and Leighlin, again called in ; and further Exa-
mined.
IN what and how far does the Roman Catholic profess to
obey the Pope ?— The Catholic professes to obey the Pope in
matters which regard his religious faith, and in those matters
of ecclesiastical discipline, which have already been defined by
the competent authorities,
Does this obedience detract from what is due by the Ca-
tholic to the state ? — Not in the slightest degree ; on the con-
trary, as the laws of God, which the Pope does enforce
amongst Catholics, ordains that we should pay obedience
to the existing government of the country where we dwell, so
the obedience we owe the Pope only tends to confirm us in
our allegiance to such government.
Does that justify the objection that is made to Catholics,
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
that their allegiance is divided ? — I do not think it does, in
any way ; we are bound to obey the Pope in those things that
I have already mentioned ; but our obedience to the law and
the allegiance which we owe the sovereign, are complete and
full, and perfect and undivided, inasmuch as they extend to
all political, legal, and civil rights of the King, or of his sub-
jects. I think the allegiance due to the King, and that due to
the Pope, are as distinct and as divided in their nature, as
any two things can possibly be.
Is the claim that some Popes have set up to Temporal Au-
thority, opposed to Scripture and Tradition ? — In my opinion,
it is opposed to both.
What is your opinion respecting the conduct of those Popes
who have interfered with states, and extended their preten-
sions to the civil business of men ? — I do not like to speak
harshly of men who have already passed out of this world ;
but I think that the Popes who so acted have done much mis-
chief, and very often have acted upon a power, or upon an
authority, which they had no right to exercise : however,
when Popes did interfere with the civil business of men, or
with the temporal rights of princes, I find that in almost
every instance in which such interference occurred, that they
professed to act upon rights which they had acquired by
compact or cession, or some act upon the part of those sove-
reigns, or those countries, with which they so interfered; and
I do not find that that interference was grounded in almost
any case upon their spiritual authority only.
Are those rights you allude to temporal rights ? — The rights
to which I allude are temporal rights, which were acquired
by the Popes from time to time, chiefly during the feudal
times.
Do you mean, by princes transferring to Popes their king-
doms, or parts of their kingdoms? — Yes, by kings and princes
making their states tributary to the holy see, or resigning
them into the hands of the Pope, and then accepting of them
back again, as fiefs of the holy see ; thus the Pope was con-
sidered by them as the lord paramount of the kingdom, or
dukedom, or principality ; and he, acting upon this supposed
right thus acquired, sometimes attempted to depose the
princes, or to absolve the vassals of such kingdoms from the
allegiance which they owed to their immediate lord.
Were those claims of the Popes opposed in Europe ? — Op-
posed they were ; and the consequence of such opposition
were many and very bloody wars ; the kings of France con-
tended against the Popes ; the sovereigns, properly so called,
I cannot call them emperors of Germany, for they were tha
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 349
emperors of the Roman empire, contended with the Popes ;
the kings of Naples have had, from time immemorial, disputes
upon those grounds with the Popes ; and there was scarcely a
Catholic sovereign in Europe, who at one time or other, did not
contend with his contemporary Pope, upon this very ground.
Did every Pope justify his claim to temporal interference,
upon some previous right conferred upon him by a prince of
some European country? — As far as I am acquainted with
the history of such claims, put forward by the Popes, they
rested them upon such temporal rights, previously acquired
by themselves or their predecessors, with the single exception
of, I think, Boniface the Eighth ; and he in a contest, as I
recollect, with some king of France, includes in a brief,
which he issued, a declaration that he did so by an authority
vested in him from above. The terms of this declaration
were vague and general, and seemed to me, when I read it,
to imply that it was not in virtue of the temporal authority
he had acquired, but in virtue of his spiritual authority, that
he attempted to act as he then did. This is the only instance
of the kind which has occurred to me in my reading.
Does the Pope at present dispose in any way of temporal
affairs within the kingdoms of any princes on the Continent ?
— The Pope at present does not interfere, or attempt to inter-
fere, with the temporal concerns of any kingdom in Europe ;
to this, perhaps, there is an exception with regard to the
kingdom of Naples; but I believe a concordat has been en-
tered into in the time of the late Pope, between the then go-
vernment of Naples and the Pope's minister Cardinal Gqn-
salin, wherein the ancient claim or claims of the Roman see
tcTthe kingdom of Naples, as a fief, were laid aside, and some
equivalent for it accepted. It was customary for the king of.
Naples, as a mark of his holding that kingdom as a fief of
the holy see, to send, amongst other things, a white pony or
palfrey once a year to Rome; whether that custom is still
continued I cannot say ; but I know an arrangement has been
entered into, which has settled differences which subsisted
very long, and troubled both courts very much. Let me re-
peat, that the case of Naples is the one in which the Popes
of Rome have, for the last three centuries nearly, interfered
in any way, directly or indirectly, with the temporal concerns
of any state in Europe ; and 1 add, that if they were to at-
tempt so to interfere at present, the interference would not
only be disregarded, but scoffed at by every person of sense.
Do the Catholic clergy insist, that all the bulls of the Pope
are entitled to obedience ? — By no means, the Pope we con-
sider as the executive authority in the Catholic church; and.
350 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
when he issues a bull, enforcing a discipline already settled
by a general council, such bull is entitled to respect ; but he
may issue bulls which would regard local discipline, or other
matters not already defined, and in that case his bull would
be treated by us in such manner as it might seem good to us.
For instance, did it trench upon our local discipline, we might
treat it as we did the rescript of Quarrantoti, about which
I was questioned here the other day ; did we find that it was
unreasonable, we would refuse to accept of it ; I have already
spoken of his authority in matters of a purely spiritual na-
ture.
In the creed of Pope Pius the Fourth, there are the follow-
ing words : " I promise and swear obedience to the Roman
bishop, the successor of St. Peter ;" what is the proper mean-
ing of those words ? — Of course, that we would obey him in
those things to which his authority extends ; namely, spiritual
matters, or the execution of decrees regularly defined by
general councils and accepted of by us, for they are not
all the decrees of even general councils which are received in
each kingdom ; for instance, the decrees of the Council of
Trent, regarding discipline, are not received in the kingdom
of France ; the decree of the Council of Trent, regarding a
particular discipline, is not received in the province of Dublin
in Leinster, though it is received in the other parts of Ire-
land ; all the decrees then even of general councils, much
less all decrees of the Pope, cannot have force unless they
are received formally by the nation which they regard, or
whose discipline is affected by them ; each church has its
rights, and those rights cannot be subverted or affected by
any proceeding on the part of the Pope, without the concur-
rence of the hierarchy of such church.
If the Pope were to intermeddle with the rights of the
King, or with the allegiance which Catholics owe to the
King ; what would be the consequence so far as the Catholic
clergy were concerned? — The consequence would be, that we
should oppose him by every means in our power, even by the
exercise of our spiritual authority.
In what manner could you exercise that spiritual authority ?
—By preaching to the people, that their duty to God as Ca-
tholics, required of them to oppose every person who would
interfere in any way with that right, which the law of Nature,
and the positive law of God, established in their prince, a
prince whom we as subjects were bound to support ; we would
therefore exercise our spiritual authority, by preaching the
gospel to the people, and by teaching them to oppose the
Pope, if he interfered with the temporal rights of our king.
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 351
Is it well known, what the things are in which the Pope
cannot interfere ? — Unquestionably ; in all things of a politi-
cal or civil nature he cannot interfere ; there are some matters
of a mixed nature wherein he may be considered as having
some power, such for instance as marriage ; this we consider
as a sacrament, and also as a civil contract ; the power of the
Pope, or of the bishop, extends to the spiritual qualities and
effects of that union, notwithstanding the temporal character
of it ; but the temporal effects which flow from it are sub-
jects of the civil law. If the Pope then, or any person con-
nected with him, were to interfere in those temporal matters
which are closely connected with spiritual things, in the con-
tract of marriage, they would be outstepping their proper
boundary, and no regard should be paid to what they would
do, or say or ordain ; their authority can affect only the spi-
ritual rights which would result from such marriage.
With respect to Marriage, the Committee believe that, ac-
cording to the doctrine or the rule of your church, certain
marriages might be held as forbidden by the degrees of con-
sanguinity, which, according to the doctrine of our law, are
not so? — Yes.
In a case of that kind, the marriage being valid according
to the law of the land, you might hold the party living in a
state of sin, if he cohabited under such circumstances? — I
should indeed.
Under those circumstances the issue of the marriage would
be legitimate by our law, though the cohabitation would be
sinful according to your doctrine ; would you conceive that in
consequence of your church holding the cohabitation sinful,
the civil rights of the issue could in any degree be affected ?— -
I hold that they could not.
Does this state of the case in regard to marriage, produce
any notable inconvenience ? — I do not find that it does ; we
have an experience here of two centuries and upwards ; I
mean in Ireland, where the ecclesiastical law differs from the
law of the country, yet I have not in any one instance known
or even heard of a case wherein any notable inconvenience re-
sulted from the present state of things.
Could the matter be arranged without difficulty, so as to
get rid of this discrepancy ? — I should think so, with great
ease ; in fact the Pope, by my stating to him for instance,
that a marriage was contracted within the prohibited degrees
of kindred, but which marriage was reputed valid by the
established law, would immediately grant power to dispense
in that case to marry the parties, and so render the marriage
352 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
lawful in the eye of the church as well as in the eye of the
law ; this is done sometimes.
Do Roman Catholics pray to Saints ? — We pray that the
Saints would pray for us to God ; we address ourselves to the
Saints, and beg that they would pray to God for us ; but we
do not pray to them so as to ask of them any favour or grace,
because we know they have no power of themselves to grant
us such favour or grace ; and that there is only one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
In what sense do Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary ? — In
the same sense as they pray to other Saints.
Do Roman Catholics believe there is any divinity in images
and relics ? — They believe that there is not any divinity or
virtue whatsoever in images ; as to relics, they reverence them
more than they do mere images.
What is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church re-
specting Absolution ? — The doctrine of the Roman Catholic
Church respecting Absolution, is precisely the same as that
of the Established Church in this kingdom ; so much so, that
the words of absolution which we use are precisely those put
down in the visitation of the sick in the Common Prayer-book,
to be used by a clergyman of the Established Church, when
he visits a person who wishes to confess his sins. Our doc-
trine then is, that the sinner, feeling that he may in his lifetime
have transgressed the law of God, and being penitent for it,
acknowledges his fault to a priest as to a minister of religion,
and being sincerely sorry within him for having so offended
God, by transgressing his law, the priest by a power derived
from God, gives him absolution or pardon; always requiring
of him that he do every thing in his power by amendment of
life to satisfy for his past offences, and if he should have in-
jured his neighbour in person, character or property, that he
repair such injury to the full extent of his power.
Is there any difference between the doctrine of the Catholic
church and that of the Protestant church, with respect to ab-
solution ? — I really know of none ; I am sure the Established
church requires, as we do, that the person making a confes-
sion of his sin be sorry or contrite for it; the words of the
absolution, which the priest of the Established church uses,
are precisely those which we use ; so I see no difference be-
tween the one and the other.
What is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, with
respect to Indulgences ? — Our doctrine, with regard to Indul-
gences is, that a person who may have offended against God, or
his neighbour, having done every thing in his power to satisfy.
DR. DOVLI EXAMINED. 353
for his fault, that Such person, by gaining an indulgence, is
thereby assisted and relieved from such temporal punishment
as God, in his justice might inflict upon him, either in this
life, or hereafter in purgatory, previous to his admission into
heaven.
What authority has the Catholic writer, Gother, among
Roman Catholics ? — Gother is esteemed by us a very venerable
writer, and perfectly orthodox in all that he has written.
The Committee find, in a treatise called A Vindication of
the Roman Catholics, the following curse, in a statement of
curses ; first, "Cursed is he that commits idolatry, that prays to
images or relics, or worships them for God ;" is that a doctrine
which is acknowledged by Roman Catholics ? — That is our
proper doctrine, and I, and every Roman Catholic in the world
would say with Gother, accursed be such person.
Further, it states, " Cursed is every goddess worshipper,
that believes the Virgin Mary to be any more than a creature,
that honours her, worships her, or puts his trust in her more
than in God; that honours her above her Son, or believes that
she can in any way command him ;" is that acknowledged ? —
That is acknowledged ; arid I would say the same of that as I
did of the former.
It then states, " Cursed is he that believes the Saints in
heaven to be his Redeemers, that prays to them as such, or
that gives God's honour to them, or to any creature whatso-
ever ;" is that acknowledged ? — So, I say, accursed be any
person that does so.
It then further states, " Cursed is he that believes priests
can forgive sins, whether a sinner repents or not ; or that there
is any power in earth or heaven that can forgive sins, without
a hearty repentance, and a serious purpose of amendment ?" —
I most cordially coincide in the expressions used there by
Gother, and so will every Catholic clergyman in the world.
It is then stated, " Cursed is he that believes there is autho-
rity in the Pope, or any other, that can give leave to commit
sins, or that can forgive him his sins, for a sum of money ?" —
A frightful and impious doctrine, and most accursed is he that
holds it.
What is your opinion of the indulgences granted by the
Pope to certain churches, upon occasion of the holy year,
which appear to the Committee to come within the description
of that which you conceive to be not consistent with the sound
; doctrine of the Roman church ? — I am certain, that the Pope,
upon this matter, thinks as we do, for he is a divine of the
Catholic church, and so is Gother, and so am I; our rank is
i different, but our doctrine, upon that subject, surely is the
2 A
354
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
same ; I never found any diversity of doctrine amongst Roman
Catholic divines upon that subject ; there is a phraseology in
their writings which might mislead persons not acquainted
with their science ; for instance, Saint Paul, himself, has some-
times given the name of sin to that which is not sin, but which
was connected with it ; as when he says, that our Redeemer
was made sin for us ; it is in like manner said, in the holy
Scripture, " Peccata populi mei comedent ;" " they shall 'eat
the sins of my people," meaning the offerings for sin. Now,
in the indulgences, it is sometimes said by the Pope, that he
forgives the sin ; that expression might lead into an error :
but the meaning of it is, that he forgives, as far as in his
power lies, the temporary punishment due to the sin, after the
guilt of it has been remitted upon true repentance by the sin-
ner ; or in other words, after the guilt of the sin has been re-
mitted by God, upon the repentance of the sinner.
Are there any words in the indulgences, as they are pub-
lished, which would give the world a notion that they are to
be understood with those qualifications ? — I think that there
is no Catholic at all who misunderstands the language in
which indulgences are granted, because in all our books of
prayer, which are in the hands of every Christian, the sense
that I have now given is clearly expounded ; and the priests
in their exhortations, when they do publish indulgences of
any kind, take care to impress strongly upon the people, that
such indulgence cannot be obtained, unless they heartily
repent of their sin, obtain pardon of the guilt from God, and
do all in their power to make atonement for it by good
works.
Are there any words to that purport, in the indulgences
themselves? — 1 mentioned upon that subject all that I can
say ; there may be in some indulgences, obscure expressions
which might mislead those who do not understand the matter
as Catholics do ; but I said, that upon the subject of indul-
gences those proclamations or bulls, or whatever they may be
called, are not misunderstood by any Catholic of any rank or
condition or country ; that I distinctly stated, and I also, as I
supposed, stated the reasons, namely, because the true expla-
nation of the matter is found not only in every prayer book,
but is constantly explained and inculcated by the clergy in
their exhortations from the altar or pulpit, so that an error
upon the subject is morally impossible ; nor did I ever know
in my life any one of any class or description, who laboured
under the error, that an indulgence implied the remission
of sin.
Will you describe to the Committee, the nature of an in-
OR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 355
dulgence? — We conceive that when a sinner heartily repents,
he obtains from God, through the sacrament of penance, a
remission of the guilt of the sin which he may have com-
mitted ; but after such guilt is remitted, we believe that a
temporal punishment may still remain to be inflicted on him ;
for instance, when David committed the crimes of adultery
and murder, he was rebuked by the Prophet Nathan, and upon
being rebuked, he repented sincerely, and exclaimed, " I have
sinned against the Lord ;" upon which the Prophet replied,
" Notwithstanding, because thou hast done this thing, and
caused the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child which
has been born to thee shall die the death." Here then
we see that God Almighty may remit the eternal guilt of a sin,
as he did to David, after he had declared I have sinned
against the Lord, but yet that there may remain a temporal
punishment to be inflicted afterwards by God, in order that
he may show to the faithful at large, who often are scandal-
ized by the sin, his justice as well as his mercy. We conceive
that this providence of God has not been confined to the an-
cient, but that it is extended also to the new dispensation, for
we find St. Paul telling the Corinthians, that the unworthy
communions of some were the cause why many were sick and
some died amongst them. From this then we infer, that
though the Almighty may remit to the contrite heart the
guilt of sin, he may yet punish even under the new law, by tem-
poral afflictions ; and we do believe, that an indulgence
granted by the church and obtained by the sinner, relieves
him entirely or in part from such temporal punishment as may
remain hanging over him, after the guilt of his sin may have
been wiped away.
Does the indulgence insure that forgiveness to the peni-
tent?— It does not insure such forgiveness to the penitent, it
only gives him a hope, that through the merits of Christ, and
the united prayers of the faithful in the church, God may be
propitious to him by the means of the indulgence.
Does it not also relieve the sinner from any penance imposed
upon him by the church, in consequence of the commission of
sin ? — So far from relieving him from the penance enjoined on
him by his confessor, unless he perform, or be resolved to per-
form such penance, he cannot obtain the indulgence ; it is a
help to his infirmity, but by no means a dispensation from
performing all that is in his power to move the mercy of
God.
Were there not very long periods of penance imposed for
the commission of certain offences, at an early period of the
church ? — There were.
2 A 2
356 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Was not the system of indulgences one of the m<
avoiding- the extraordinary length of those penances ? — No ;
the extraordinary length of those penances was done away in
the church, when the corruption of the morals of Christians
became very great ; the discipline which enjoined such pro-
longed penances became too severe for our infirmity, and they
went therefore into disuse ; but in some indulgences, it is said,
that an indulgence of seven years, or of so many quarantines,
is granted ; and this seems to have reference to the ancient
canons, and is to be understood thus, " We grant you by this
indulgence an exemption from performing that public pe-
nance of seven years, or forty days, which, had you lived in
the time when the ancient canons were enforced, you would
have been obliged to perform."
Is it in any part of the doctrine of your church, or has it
been any part of the practice of it, that those indulgences
should extend to the remission of the temporal consequences,
with respect to crimes to be committed ? — Never at any
period.
The reason you were asked that question is, because the
Committee are aware that a vulgar error has prevailed upon
that subject ? — Yes ; it is a horrible imputation.
In the case you have mentioned from Saint Paul, you de-
scribed Saint Paul as saying, that in consequence of un-
worthy communion, many became sick and died? — He says
there are many infirm and many weak, and I believe some
have slept, but he distinguishes the different classes.
Those infirmities the Committee understand you to describe
as the temporary penalties of sin ; do you think that an indul-
gence can relieve from such infirmities as those which you
describe as the temporary penalties of sin ? — I conceive, for
instance, that the Almighty, upon the repentance of a sinner,
might forgive the eternal guilt of such unworthy communion
as the apostle alludes to; but notwithstanding that the guilt
had been remitted by God, yet such individual might be
afflicted with sickness ; and I do conceive that, if upon their
remission of the eternal guilt by God, this person availed
himself of the indulgence which the church might grant, the
Almighty would relieve him from that sickness, which other-
wise might fall upon him.
Do you think that an indulgence could avert sickness re-
sulting from the wrath of God ? — I think that an indulgence,
such as 1 have mentioned, might avert such sickness.
Is there any distinction between Plenary and other indul-
gences ? — There is ; an indulgence may be for some years, as
I mentioned, or it may be for a quarantine or more quaran-
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
357
tines than one (a quarantine signifies forty days), or it may be
a plenary indulgence ; the meaning of a plenary indulgence
is, that the church thereby grants as full a remission of the
temporal punishment or penance due to a sin, as it is in the
power of the person granting the indulgence to bestow.
These are not my words, but the words of a Pope, I think one
of the Bonifaces, in an explanation which he gave of the word
Plenary Indulgence.
What is the utmost extent, in point of duration, of an in-
dulgence?— I believe seven years : there were many fictitious
or forged indulgences (crowds of which were carried about
the world, and which were not at all authentic) for I believe a
greater number of years ; but we do not recognise, and have
not, that I know of, ever recognised any indulgence for a
period beyond that of seven years, when time is at all
specified.
The Sale of Indulgences used formerly to be a topic of im-
putation against the Catholic church ; does any such practice
exist at this time ? — I believe it ceased in the sixteenth cen-
tury. The consequences of it then were so frightful as to put
a total end to it ; nor has it been since revived, and I hope
never will.
The Committee wish to know, whether every priest has the
power of absolving in every case ? — A priest, by his ordina-
tion, receives what we call a radical power, whereby he can
absolve from sin ; but besides this power, which belongs to
him in virtue of the order which he receives, he must get juris-
diction from the bishop to absolve individuals, otherwise he
cannot absolve any one. Now the bishop, in granting such
. jurisdiction to him, which he may grant either as to extent of
territory or as to individuals, may restrict the power of abso-
lution to a certain class of sins, or he may give power to the
priest to absolve the contrite sinner from any sins he may be
guilty of, with the exception of certain sins which he specifies,
and those are called in our language Reserved Cases ;
for instance, in a case of deliberate murder. If a man who
had committed deliberate murder in the diocese where I live,
were to repent as deeply and sincerely as David did, no priest
in it could absolve him, unless by special leave communicated
by me. We reserve the absolution from those grievous crimes
to ourselves, for the purpose that sinners who are so unfortu-
tunate as to commit them might come before us, and receive
such reproofs and such penances to be performed, as would in
some degree secure their amendment ; and we would fear, that
if we left it in the power of ordinary priests to absolve from
such grievous offences, that they might not be so provident in
358 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
the exercise of that power as the bishop himself would be ;
that is the nature of reserved cases, and these are the grounds
upon which certain cases are reserved.
Are there any cases reserved to the special jurisdiction of
the see of Rome itself ? — I believe not ; there is no case what-
ever, that I know of, from which the bishop in this country
has not the power to absolve. How the Pope treats the
matter in his own territory, or in Italy, I cannot say.
In cases in which the priest has the power to absolve, is*
not his absolution as complete as that of the bishop himself?
— I take it to be as perfect as that of the bishop or of the
Pope.
Does the priest absolve of himself, as by authority de-
volved on him by God, or is he merely the instrument of de-
claring God's pardon to a sinner ? — He is more ; he absolves
by authority, which we believe has been committed to him by
God ; the words of the absolution imply as much as you may
see in the Common Prayer Book.
Is that absolution direct and absolute, or is it conditional,
upon the repentance and making atonement on the part of
the sinner ? — In the form in which it is pronounced it is un-
conditional and absolute, but it cannot take effect if the peni-
tent be not contrite ; but that is his affair ; we cannot see the
secrets of hearts.
In cases of confession and absolution, is it not the duty of
the Roman Catholic clergy, wherever they can, to induce the
offender to make restitution and atonement to those whom he
has offended in this world ? — It is so much their duty, that
they cannot at all grant absolution, unless the man has ac-
tually made, or engages most solemnly, and as it appears to
them, most sincerely, to make as soon as possible, and to the
utmost extent of his power, full reparation for any injury he
may have done to the person, character, or property of his
neighbour.
Have the instances of reparation and restitution, which
have taken place within your knowledge, been numerous ? —
Numerous beyond the power of counting ; and they are oc-
curring almost daily. Every gentleman resident in Ireland
must well know what a common practice prevails there, of a
priest coming and giving money to individuals, and telling
them, " This is money which is restored for an injury that
has been done to you ;" he cannot, however, tell the name of
the person by whom the injury has been done, or any thing
more about it. We clergymen frequently do this ourselves,
but the reparation is much more frequently made in private,
by the person who did the injury ; we only become the chan-
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 359
nel through which it is made, where we find that the party
concerned cannot make it without exposing himself to be
known, to which we do not oblige him.
It must frequently occur, that a person comes before the
priest, who has been engaged in plans for doing mischief,
either public or private ; what is the uniform conduct of the
priests in your church in such cases ? — Our uniform conduct
is, to oblige such person to withdraw himself from any wicked
society of men with whom he may have been connected ; to
make reparation to the full extent of his power, for all the
injuries which were done by him, or by the party with which
he was associated ; for we conceive, that a man is bound no6
only to repair the injury which he himself committed, but
also the injury to which he had been a party ; the many ways
in which a man becomes obliged to make reparation for in-
juries not done directly by himself, are comprehended in a
verse, which is found in our theology: " Jussio consilium
consensus palpo recursus participans mutus, non obstans, non
manifest cans" If a man concur in any of those ways to the
doing of an injury, he is bound to repair it as an accomplice,
in the default of the principal.
In cases of mischief intended to be done, either to the
public or to an individual, would not every priest of your
church feel it his bounden duty to prevent that mischief being
done, without disclosing the name of the individual, by ap-
prising either the state or the party to whom the mischief is
intended to be done ? — We can make no use of any knowledge
derived from confession ; but it is uniformly our practice to
dissuade the penitent from the intended crime ; and I, myself,
have frequently prevented the commission of mischief, by
obliging the person who felt compunction at being concerned
in plotting some evil, not at first to inform, but to dissuade
his companions from doing the intended wrong ; if he did not
effectually succeed thus, then by obliging him to warn the per-
son concerned of the danger, or to give such information to
him, or to a magistrate, or other proper authority, as would
effectually prevent the intended evil.
Did not you, in the commencement of the late disturb-
ances, publish a pastoral letter, warning your flock from en-
tering into any of the illegal confederacies of the day ? — I did.
Do you know whether that pastoral letter was reprinted
and circulated by any, and what, of the public authorities in
Ireland ? — I have heard that it was, but I do not know it of
my own knowledge ; I heard, it is true, and in a kind of way
hich I could not be deceived, that there was an edition
360 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
of it published in Cork, by the gentleman who commanded
His Majesty's troops in that quarter ; I believe there was an
edition of it also in Gal way, by some of the public authori-
ties in that town ; whether there was one in Dublin I do not
know; but I know that printers, for their own profit, did
publish a great number of them.
In the event of the introduction of any of those illegal con-
spiracies into any part of the country, was not one of the earliest
signs of the existence of those disturbances the absence of the
peasantry concerned in them from confession ? — Yes, it was ;
the persons uniformly absented themselves from confession.
I should say, however, that the pastoral letter, to which the
Committee allude, could not have had much effect if it had
riot been sustained by the personal exertions of the clergy ;
it was not only by publishing that pastoral letter, that I en-
deavoured to check the evil which prevailed in that part of
the country, but I also spent several weeks, going from parish
to parish, and preaching to multitudes of people in the cha-
pels, and sometimes by the way sides, against the society in
which they were engaged ; pointing out to them, as well as
I could, the unlawful nature of it, its opposition to the law
of God and to the laws of the country, as well as the evil
results with which it was fraught if persevered in.
What society do you allude to? — The society of Ribbon-
men.
Do you know any instances in which the Roman Catholic
clergy, following the same course that you have described
with regard to yourself, were in consequence exposed to any
personal danger ? — I do ; a clergyman, even in rny own dio-
cese, was put in peril of his life, and I was obliged to re-
move him from one parish to another, through a strong ap-
prehension which he entertained, and in which I also par-
ticipated, that if he continued in the parish where he laboured
to check this evil, he might be assassinated.
Do you know any instances in which, in consequence of
such opposition as you have described on the part of the Ro-
man Catholic clergy, surrenders of arms have been made, to
any considerable extent ? — Yes, nothing more common ; there
was scarcely a parish where there had been many seizures of
arms, where such arms were not either entirely, or in part,
delivered up to the clergyman, and by him, or by his direc-
tions, to the magistrate, for he very often did not receive the
arms himself, but directed the person to surrender them to
the magistrate.
Have there been any other efforts made of another descrip-
DR, DOYLE EXAMINED. 361
tion, by you in your diocese, to convey moral and religious
instruction to your Roman Catholic brethren?— I have not
ceased, during the few years I have been bishop, to promote
education of every kind, but particularly of a religious kind ;
for this purpose I have frequently required of the clergy to
seek to raise contributions amongst the people, for the pur-
pose of building schools and assisting to pay schoolmasters,
where the peasantry were not able to pay them for educating
their children. I have sometimes, upon the death of a pa-
rish priest, kept the parish vacant for some time, and have
taken into my own hands what of the dues could be spared
after supporting the assistant-priest, and applied those sums
for the building of schools ; besides which, I have established
in every parish within the two dioceses of which I have the
care, parochial libraries, which I have had stocked with books
of religious and moral instruction exclusively ; those books
are given out to heads of families, upon their paying a penny
a week or a fortnight for the use of them ; they are given to
the poor gratis ; when a man has read one of those books, he
returns it to the librarian upon the Sunday ; he then gets
another, and thus every class of people in the diocese are in-
structed in their moral, social, and religious duties.
Will you have the kindness to state to the Committee, whe-
ther Gother's Gospel, Reeve's History of Christ, Chaloner's
Morality of the Bible, and other books of a similar descrip-
tion, are amongst the books in those libraries ? — The books
that have been named are found, I believe, in every library
within my diocese ; all these libraries consist of books of a
religious nature exclusively; for I do not admit into them any
profane history, or any political tract, or any book of science
unmixed with morals.
Have there been any societies established within your dio-
cese called Confraternities, for the purpose of administering
religious and moral instruction to the poor ? — When I came
into that diocese, I found a few such societies existing in it,
but from the advantages which I perceived to result from
them, I myself recommended at the several visitations I held
in the chapels, in the strongest and most earnest manner,
that such confraternities should be formed; and I do not know
that there is at present any one chapel in the diocese, to
which there is not a confraternity of the Christian doctrine,
as we call it, attached. These confraternities consist of
young men and young females of a religious character, who
assemble at an early hour on Sundays, and dispose the
children in classes, and teach them the rudiments of the
Christian religion ; they read before mass to them some pious
362 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
lecture or instruction ; and in some chapels after mass re-
sume the same business, and continue it for an hour or two ;
they conclude these instructions by some form of prayer, after
which they disperse arid go home.
Do you conceive that the present state of your chapels and
the insufficient accommodation which they afford to the Roman
Catholic congregations in Ireland, impedes the efforts of the
Roman Catholic clergy in giving religious instruction to the
people ? — Perhaps one of the greatest obstacles to the instruc-
tion of the people in Ireland, is the want of sufficient room in
our chapels, but this is an evil which it is not in our power to
remedy ; the pressure upon the peasantry is so great from
various causes, that they have not the means of enlarging
their chapels, still less of building them anew, without making
sacrifices which are peculiarly oppressive to them ; and I have
myself often ordered a chapel to be enlarged, or said, that
otherwise I would not permit mass to be celebrated in it, and
yet upon the representation of the priest, as to the distress
and extreme poverty of the people, I have withdrawn such
order, and suffered them to proceed as well as they could.
Have you known many instances in which, in poor parishes
which have been unable themselves to build or to enlarge
their chapels, contributions have been made for the purpose
of assisting them, by Protestant landlords and Protestant in-
habitants ? — Within my diocese we have not enlarged or built
any chapel, since my appointment to my present office, in
doing which we have not been assisted and materially assisted
by Protestant gentlemen ; in the parish in which I reside,
about six years ago we commenced a very beautiful chapel ;
we were enabled chiefly by the assistance given to us by Pro-
testant gentlemen to build the walls and even to roof them in ;
I myself have endeavoured out of my small income to contri-
bute some forty or fifty pounds a-year, for the two or three
last years to the advancement of this work ; but, from the
extreme poverty of the parishioners, I have not till lately ven-
tured to call upon them for any aid, and the building though
a beautiful one, remains in that unfinished state ; Sir Henry
Parnell has been one of our most bountiful contributors
towards this building.
Are there not instances in which Protestant proprietors,
who are generally considered as being extremely adverse to
the Roman Catholic claims, have nevertheless felt it to be
their duty to come forward, and assist the Catholics in build-
ing or repairing their chapels? — That perhaps is the only
matter in which I can scarcely distinguish between those of
the Protestant gentry who are adverse, and those who are
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 363
friendly to our claims ; they all seem to think it a duty, on
their part, to contribute to provide for the people a place of
worship.
Do you consider the number of priests in your diocese to
be adequate to the full performance of their religious duties ?
— The priests in my diocese are perhaps somewhat more
numerous, in proportion to the number of people to be served,
than in most others in Ireland ; the reason is, that I have a
college at Carlow, to which a lay school is attached, and from
the profits of that lay school we have been enabled to put
together a very considerable sum of money ; and by the inte-
rest of this money we are enabled to support a president and
vice-president, and a competent number of professors ; and
hence we are, in my diocese, enabled to educate at Carlow
such a number of priests as are wanted immediately in the
diocese itself. But I will state, that notwithstanding this
supply of ours, which is greater than can be found in any
other diocese perhaps in Ireland, we have not yet employed
upon the mission, more than two-thirds of the number which
would be necessary for the due discharge of the priestly func-
tions amongst the people ; the reason however is, not that I
could not furnish a sufficient number of priests, because I
have at my disposal the college to which I have just alluded,
but I do not like to burden the people, who are too much
weighed down with other claims, by sending amongst them an
additional number of priests, who of course should be sup-
ported by their contributions.
In point of fact, is the number of priests existing in your
diocese sufficient to enable them to give instruction, in the
shape of a sermon, after mass at every chapel within the
diocese ? — The priests in my diocese are so strictly bound by
the statutes of the diocese itself, to give religious instruction,
that unless in a case of difficulty almost extreme, they cannot
avoid giving such instruction ; but yet in general it is given
by them at great personal inconvenience, for many of them
have to celebrate two masses upon each Sunday, one of them
at so late an hour as eleven or twelve o'clock. The priest who
thus celebrates two masses, is obliged to fast until the labour
is ended, and often to ride some miles between one chapel and
another ; having this heavy labour to perform then, he is not
often able, particularly if he be an old man, or of a delicate
constitution, to give so much instruction in public as I would
wish. However, he must read either the epistle or the gospel
of the day, or both, and give a short exposition of them ; or if
riot of them, of a chapter of the common catechism, where the
Christian duties are briefly laid down.
364 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Considering the discipline of the Roman Catholic church as
applicable to Ireland, do you not conceive that a regular instruc-
tion of the people, in the shape of a sermon, is actually neces-
sary ? — I think it actually necessary ; but from the circum-
stances of the priests, which I have now described, and from
the smallness of the chapels, such instruction cannot be given
in the most desirable way.
You have alluded to an establishment at Carlow, for the
education of priests ; how long has that establishment sub-
sisted?— That establishment was opened a year or two
before the college at Maynooth ; I do not know exactly the
year.
From whence are its funds derived? — The funds have been
derived partly from donations or bequests made to it by indi-
viduals, but they have chiefly arisen from the profits of a lay
school, which is attached to the college.
Is there then a combined system of education at Carlow,
lay and ecclesiastical? — There is.
Are the students of those two classes educated together ? —
No ; they are educated in the same establishment, but not
together.
Do you conceive there would be any objection to com-
bine the two branches of the establishment there, the lay and
ecclesiastical, referring to the Roman Catholic priesthood ? —
I should not think that persons destined for the ecclesiastical
state, if they have resolved to enter into it, should be mixed
with persons whose vocation was not yet decided.
What are the grounds which have induced you to form that
opinion ? — The grounds of it are, that I wish ecclesiastics to
turn their minds and affections entirely to that state of life
upon which they are about to enter, and to keep themselves, as
much as may be, separated from those worldly feelings and
pursuits, which are lawful, if not commendable in lay persons.
I think in a word, that the ecclesiastical character, in order to
be perfect, should partake as little as might be of that of a
layman ; arid therefore I do not wish, that ecclesiastics who
should live to God, and who are to be employed during life, in
inculcating the pure morality of the gospel upon the people,
not only by word, but also by example ; I do not wish, or
think it right, that such persons should be too much mixed
with worldly concerns ; I conceive that their being so, is
opposed to the spirit of the gospel, and to the admonition of
the apostle, who says, that nobody who is devoted to the ser-
vice of the altar should mix himself with secular concerns.
Has the establishment at Carlow been always distinct in its
branches, or have those branches ever been combined ?— They
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 365
have never been combined more closely than they are at
present.
Is there within your knowledge, any college in any other
diocese in Ireland, similar in its objects to that of Carlow ? —
There is a college in the diocese of Ossory ; and there is a
seminary, I believe, at Waterford ; and there is also a small
one at Tuam, those are similar in their object, but they are
small ; I might say, insignificant compared with ours, for our
establishments, comparatively speaking, are very large ; the
number of students educated in them is very considerable ;
the establishment of professors is very respectable ; and the
sciences taught by them are the same as those taught at May-
nooth, or at any other public establishment ; in a word we have
a regular professor of theology, of sacred scripture, one of
moral and rational philosophy, one also of natural philosophy,
besides teachers of the classics ; such an establishment as
that, comprising so many professors, could not be had in a
seminary unprovided with very considerable funds, therefore
it is that those other seminaries are very small compared
with ours.
Do you mean, that there are courses of scientific instruc-
tion, both pure mathematics and experimental philosophy ? —
Pure mathematics and experimental philosophy are taught at
our college, in the same manner as they are taught at Trinity
College.
What is the number of students ? — It varies between 100
and 120, including the lay gentlemen.
How many of those are educating for priests ? — The number
destined for the priesthood varies from sixty to eighty.
What is the expense attending the education of a boy at the
college of Carlow ? — We charge them twenty-five guineas
a-year for their commons, in which charge we do not consi-
der ourselves as including any thing at all for education.
Except those who are educating for the church, all our pupils
are obliged to pay five guineas at entrance, and thirty guineas
a-year.
What is the whole annual expense ? — I should think, the
education of a lay boy would cost between forty guineas and
fifty pounds a-year.
Do you prefer this plan of education to that at Maynooth ?
-The plan of education, at our college, is very nearly similar
to that at Maynooth, because there also the classics are taught,
though they instruct ecclesiastics only ; and as to the sciences,
we teach the same course in both establishments.
Do you prefer a system of education, that would require this
expense, to one entirely charitable, like that at Maynooth ? —
366 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Yes, I would ; but, however, if you were to charge the stu-
dents coming from several dioceses in Ireland, as much as they
are obliged to pay at our house, you would exclude them alto-
gether, as they have not the means wherewith to pay ; for in-
stance in the north, where the Catholics are, generally speak-
ing, few in number, and very poor, I do not suppose you would
find a number of persons inclined to enter into the church,
who could afford to pay forty, or perhaps twenty pounds a-year
during their studies. Not so in Leighlin and Kildare, for we
have a great number of substantial farmers, who are able to
pay what is charged for education of their sons.
Would you prefer the system of education at your college,
to the system of education in the foreign universities ? — I feel
a partiality for the education at a regular university, because
I have been educated at such a place myself; however,
it is possible that our system of education, for the genera-
lity of ecclesiastical students, may be better than that of an
university abroad ; but I think, for certain classes of per-
sons, an education at an university, where there is more emu-
lation and more zeal, a longer time allowed for study, greater
rewards and distinctions held out, would be far preferable to
that of a private seminary or college, such as Carlow and
Maynooth.
Do you think that so far as it is practicable, a less eleemo-
synary system of education would be preferable for the cler-
gy?— As far as it is practicable, I should think so ; but am of
opinion, that much caution would be required in making such
an arrangement as would burden the students with expense.
If there were any arrangement for the payment of the Ro-
man Catholic clergy by the state, such as would make situa-
tions in the church an object for persons in a certain rank in
life; do not you think that the persons who went would be
able to pay for their education ? — I think that such arrange-
ment would probably have that effect.
What is the number of years which each student is obliged
to reside at Carlow, previous to his ordination? — The stu-
dents of my diocese are obliged to reside in Carlow at least
six years ; in general they reside for a longer time, but the
course which is absolutely necessary for a student in the col-
lege, is only of five years.
Are they ordained for other dioceses besides that, after hav-
ing received their education at that seminary? — Yes.
For any diocese in Ireland? — For any diocese in Ireland;
we receive them from any diocese, when they come recom-
mended to us by their bishop.
And a degree, or a gradating at that seminary, is considered
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 367
the same as a degree taken at Maynooth ? — We have not the
power of conferring degrees either at Maynooth or at Carlow ;
there is a testimonial signed by the president, of the student
having passed through the regular course of studies, but it is
not what we call a degree; a kind of proceeding sanctioned
by law, which gives to a man a degree, is what we cannot
have.
Is there no such power at Maynooth? — No such power at
Maynooth ; it is a power, I believe, generally derived from
the King's act of foundation ; in Ireland there is no such thing
existing, except at the university, that is, at Trinity College ;
in fact, the power of conferring degrees is scarcely ever given
to colleges, it is confined to universities ; they are only reli-
gious orders in the church which have had the power, from
time to time, of granting something equivalent to a degree.
Is a testimonial given at Carlow considered equivalent to
a testimonial received at Maynooth? — Yes, it is.
Is it considered also the same thing when given at the other
seminaries in the dioceses of Waterford, Ossory, and Tuam ?
— A man who gets a certificate of having fulfilled the course
of studies adopted in any of those seminaries, is thereby enti-
tled to be employed upon the mission ; but it is a matter that
depends upon the opinion of the public, whether he will stand
as high in their estimation when he has fulfilled his studies at
another seminary, as if he had studied at Carlow ; I do con-
ceive that the generality of students who have completed their
studies at Carlow, are much esteemed throughout Ireland.
Can you inform the Committee, what the number may be
at other seminaries ? — I really cannot ; I believe they are few.
Is it necessary for a person to have taken any degree, in or-
der for him to be made a bishop ? — It is not necessary.
Then, of course, persons educated at Maynooth and Carlow
are qualified to become bishops ? — Yes ; and there are several
bishops in Ireland who have been there educated.
Have the majority of the Irish prelates been educated at
Maynooth, or at the foreign universities? — The majority of
our present prelates have been educated at the foreign univer-
sities ; but I suppose, in a few years, we are not likely to have
any bishops but such as have been educated at home ; I am
myself the youngest prelate in Ireland who has received a fo-
reign education.
Can you inform the Committee of any other circumstances,
besides the facilities afforded by the establishments at May-
nooth and Carlow, which lead you to think that students will
not repair to foreign universities for education? — I do not
know any other.
368 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Have any obstacles been thrown in the way of the Irish
youth repairing to the universities in France? — None what-
ever, that I am acquainted with.
Have not some of the burses been suppressed ? — No.
Have any facilities been offered by the French government?
— No facility, that I heard of; the funds belonging to our
Irish college in France, or rather the management of them,
was for some time past vested in a kind of board at Paris ;
and this board consisted of men who mismanaged our pro-
perty very much ; they placed in the seminary there, which
belongs to the Irish, men in whose morals or capacity we had
no confidence ; and whilst the management of the seminary
continued in the hands of this bureau, many of the Irish pre-
lates were unwilling to send subjects there. But some short
time past, this bureau was dissolved, and the administration
of the college vested, I believe, in some person appointed by
the King ; I do not know but it may have been in one of the
secretaries of state ; an Irish ecclesiastic, however, who hap-
pened to be on business in Paris, was appointed president,
and since then, our objections to sending students there have
been, I may say, entirely removed. I myself have a right to
send there a student, or perhaps two or three, and during the
last six years I would not send one at all to Paris, for the
reasons I have stated ; but I am deliberating at present about
sending one or two, on account of the change to which I have
adverted.
When sent there, will they receive their education and sup-
port without any contribution by themselves or their families?
— They will receive their education and support without any
contribution, by themselves or their families; but they will
receive it, not from the French government or the French na-
tion, but out of funds which originally belonged to Irish fa-
milies, and which funds were settled in that country, when at
home we were not permitted to educate our own youth. Much
of those funds was confiscated at the period of the Revolu-
tion, but some remnant of them was preserved ; and it is this
remnant which was restored to us at the time of the general
peace, and which it was sought at that time to have trans-
ferred to Ireland, but the French government was averse to
such translation ; and I believe the representatives in France of
our own government did not exert themselves very much to
obtain the removal of this fund at that period, or they might
have succeeded; but, at present, I should think we could not
obtain the removal of it from that country to our own.
Can you inform the Committee, what number of students
the exhibitions, which are continued in the foreign establish-
' '- t
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 369
ments, might suffice to educate, speaking now of the Univer-
sity of Paris? — I cannot speak with much precision to the
amount of our funds there, but I should think they may be
rather less than 4000/. sterling a-year, besides having a very
large college house.
Does that include the exhibitions to which those families
in Ireland have a right of presentation ? — It does include such
exhibitions.
What means exist in other universities abroad, for the edu-
cation of Irish youth, in the universities, for instance, of
Flanders and Spain ? — There is some income belonging to us
at present in Flanders, but it has not been applied hitherto
for the purposes of education ; whether it will or whether it
will not be so applied, I am not at present prepared to say ;
but except that, we have not upon the Continent any esta-
blishment deserving notice, for Irish secular priests; it is
likely, however, that we may shortly have one at Rome. The
Irish have had at all times past a college in Rome (when I say
all times past, I mean from the period of the change in the
state of the law in this country), and I think it likely that they
would wish to have a college there at present.
When you speak of having funds in- Flanders, do you mean
French Flanders, or the kingdom of the Netherlands ? — The
kingdom of the Netherlands.
What has become of the establishment at St. Omers ? — It
was destroyed during the French revolution.
In saying that there were no funds for the education of the
clergy, you used the distinction of secular clergy; what funds
are there for the education of the regular clergy ? — I do not
well know ; but I know, that as the religious orders in Ireland
have each a distinct college at Rome, they must of course have
some funds by which such colleges are supported.
Are there no funds in Spain ? — There may be some trifling
funds at Salamanca in Spain ; but 1 believe they are very small.
Having stated that you conceive the French government
would now be less inclined to admit the transfer of those sums
appropriated for education, than they would have been at the
time of the peace ; do you mean to suggest to the Committee,
that they are now more desirous of establishing the foreign,
education of Irish priests ? — No ; the meaning I attached to it
then, and what I have at present in my mind is, that our in-
fluence with the French government was stronger at the period
of the restoration than it can be supposed to be at present,
when that government is settled ; and as there would be an
inclination at all times in a French government to retain in
their own guardianship a large mass of property, I should
2 B
370 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
think that such inclination is strengthened by the circumstance
of the government itself having grown strong and secure.
Could you furnish to the Committee, previous to your leav-
ing London, any account of the number of students at the
foreign universities, now destined for the priesthood? — It
would not be in my power to do so; it is only by application
to the several bishops of Ireland, whose subjects are upon the
Continent, that such account can be furnished ; and even then
I doubt whether it would be possible to ascertain the number.
I myself have no subject for my diocese in France, but yet
there are several individuals of the diocese to whom I have
given permission to go abroad, and study. Those individuals
are gone to France for that purpose ; and when they will have
been educated, they can apply to any bishop in any part of the
world for ordination. I may not receive them, but they will
be received elsewhere, either in this country or in America.
When you mention the three orders that exist in Ireland,
do you mean that they have distinct establishments in Ireland ;
houses belonging to their orders or confraternities there ? —
They have houses belonging to their orders in Ireland, where
the religious live ; and they send abroad young men to Rome,
who are educated there and come home, and then occupy those
houses which they have in Ireland.
What are the three orders ? — There are Dominicans, Fran-
ciscans, and Augustinians.
Which is the most numerous of those ? — I should think the
Franciscans is by much the most numerous.
What duties of the ministry do they perform or assist in
performing, in Ireland ? — They assist in performing, I might
say, every duty of the ministry ; they preach, they hear con-
fessions, and they catechise.
How are they supported ? — They are supported chiefly, in
towns, by collections made at the doors of their chapels on
Sundays, from the congregations who assemble to hear mass;
and when this is not sufficient, they send some person belong-
ing to their families into the country, and he collects amongst
the farmers alms for their support, in kind generally.
Have they no fund or endowment in Ireland? — I believe
they have ; some more, and some less.
Can you state where? — Almost every house, 1 should sup-
pose, has more or less of property belonging to it.
Are there many of such establishments ! — Yes, there are a
good many ; in Dublin, I suppose, there are six or seven; in
Galway, there are three or four ; in Limerick, there is an
equal number ; in Cork, there is an equal number ; in Kil-
kenny there are, I believe two ; and in several small towns
there is at least one.
bit. boYLE EXAMINED. 371
Can you state the number of regular clergy in Ireland ? —
I cannot, with any degree of accuracy ; but I should suppose
there might be about two hundred.
When you state that most of those houses have property,
do you mean by that, landed property? — No; interest in
houses, and some funded property or monied interest.
Is the establishment for education at Castle Browne, within
the diocese of Kildare ? — It is within the diocese of Kildare.
Can you inform the Committee how that establishment is
conducted ? — It is a school, where young boys are educated.
What is the number of persons in that establishment ? —
I really cannot say; but I suppose the number of pupils in
the establishment exceeds an hundred ; probably there may
be an hundred and fifty.
At what age are they sent there ? — I believe they are re-
ceived there at the age of ten.
By whom is that establishment conducted? — There are
several clergymen residing in it, the superior of whom seems
to be a Mr. Kenny.
By what funds is it supported ? — By the pensions received
from those young gentlemen who are educated in it.
Have they not estates or property ?-~They have purchased
the house in which they reside, with a piece of land attached
to it ; I do not know the number of acres.
Do you know who purchased it ; was it Mr. Kenny ? — I
believe it was Mr. Kenny himself.
Are they of any particular order of ecclesiastics ? — It is said
that they are Jesuits.
In fact, are you aware whether they are or are not ? — I do
believe they are ; amongst the Jesuits they are reputed such ;
but then the Jesuits in these countries are not recognised to
exist as a corporation like the other religious orders ; and if
they be Jesuits, as I believe they are, they do not seem, as
far as I can understand, to act in any other capacity than
that of individual clergymen collected together ; they some-
times exercise the ministry in the diocese of Kildare, but they
do so by authority derived from me, and subject to my con-
trol.
You do not admit their right virtute ordinis merely as Je-
suits?— By no means ; I do not know in an official way that
they are Jesuits at all ; I even on one occasion, where it was
necessary for me as I thought to know it, applied to Mr. Kenny
in an official way, to ascertain whether he was or was not a
Jesuit ; I have communicated to the Committee the substance
of the reply he made to me, in what I have just said.
Have you any reason to doubt that they act under the au-
2 B 2
372 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
thority of the officers of the order, and the rules of the order,
as the members of it have always done ? — Within their own
walls and in their domestic duties they may do so, but cer-
tainly outside of their own house they do not, because they
can do nothing in my diocese unless in virtue of authority de-
rived from me ; I have over them a full and perfect control in
the exercise of their ministry.
When you say they can do nothing, you mean they can per-
form no function of the ministry ? — They cannot preach or
teach, or celebrate mass outside their own house, unless I
commission them to do so.
What is the number of pupils in that establishment ? — I said
that I did not know, but I believe it may amount to between a
hundred and a hundred and fifty ; it may even exceed a hun-
dred and fifty, but I do not know.
The expense of education there is high, is it not ? — I be-
lieve their ordinary charge is fifty pounds or guineas a year.
Then the class of pupils educated there is necessarily of a
high order ? — They are very respectable indeed.
Are you aware how many ecclesiastics are employed in the
superintendence of this establishment? — I suppose there can-
not be fewer than twelve or fourteen.
Are there any foreigners amongst them? — There is one
who I believe is a Pole, a simple good man, who has been
there for some three or four years past ; he seems to be a
German or Pole.
The others are Irish ? — The others are all Irish ; they have
an establishment of a similar nature at Stoneyhurst in Lanca-
shire, and it sometimes happens that individuals from that
establishment who are English, go over and reside for some
time at Clongowes ; I have seen, as I recollect, two or three
or four young men who were introduced to me there as Eng-
lishmen.
Are you aware of the existence of any other establishment
in Ireland, supposed to be conducted by persons of the same
society ?— There is one other in the diocese of Meath, but
there is only one or two of those men residing in it ; and a
small number of young gentlemen of a more tender age.
However, at neither of those place sis any eleemosynary
education afforded? — No, nor are there any ecclesiastics edu-
cated in either, except their own.
But for the ministry in Ireland, none have been educated at
those establishments? — None have been educated at either
place.
Have you ever heard of an establishment being about to be
founded, or a purchase of land being made in the south of
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 373
Ireland ? — No, I believe no such purchase has been made, or
was intended to be made.
Can you inform the Committee, what was the amount of
the purchase money of Castle Brown ; what was the capital
invested in that establishment? — I may be very wrong in
what I say, but to the best of my recollection, I think it cost
16,00p£
You are not aware whether that arose from funds contri-
buted by several individuals, or whether it was the investment
of one individual? — No.
A few years ago, petitions were presented to Parliament
from some of the Roman Catholic bishops, complaining of
the state of the law with regard to Catholic charities ; what
are at present the feelings and opinions of the Catholic
bishops, with respect to the powers that are possessed by
Roman Catholics to endow Catholic charitable institutions ? —
The impression upon the minds of the Catholic bishops and
clergy, and even laity, is, that every donation or founda-
tion of that kind would be liable to litigation ; and that, unless
the instrument whereby it would be conveyed were drawn up
in a very careful way, the Commissioners of Charitable Be-
quests in Ireland would be entitled, as no doubt they would
be inclined, to seize upon it ; and therefore the doubtful
state of the law upon that subject is one cause, and I might
say a chief one, why our places of worship, and our religious
establishments, which might be very useful to the country,
are left destitute of those means which they would otherwise
acquire. It was a feeling of this kind which induced the
bishops to send forward the petition which has been now
mentioned, and I myself was among those who signed it ;
and the same feeling still continues, though in some degree
mitigated.
Has not there been a decree of the court of Chancery, that
goes to settle the doubts entertained with respect to the law ?
—There was a decree that bore upon that subject, made by
the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland ; but we conceive,
that a decree of the Lord Chancellor is a very bad security for
property, as he himself might make a different decree, or
certainly his successors ; and as every case that comes before
the Lord Chancellor, is affected more or less by circumstances,
we would fear very much to take a single decree of his as a
precedent upon which to risk property; that is the feeling in
my mind, and it is a feeling generally prevailing amongst the
Catholic prelates.
Are you aware, that the decision of the Lord Chancellor in
that case has been entirely acquiesced in by the Commis*
374
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
sioners of Charitable Donations ?— I do not know that cir-
cumstance.
Are you aware, that when Lord Manners intimated the
leaning of his opinion on the subject, in favour of the bequest
for purposes connected with the Roman Catholic religion, it
was entirely acquiesced in by the counsel on behalf of the
Commissioners, and that they said they would not argue
against it ? — I believe I recollect the occurrence, and it was
known to us all, that His Majesty's Attorney-General ap-
peared in court, and waved his right to oppose the decision.
And distinctly stated, that he thought it so clear that it
could not be controverted ? — Yes, I believe we are aware
of that.
Does there, in point of fact, exist a want of confidence
amongst Roman Catholics, in the present state of the law, as
to applying property in support of Catholic charitable institu-
tions ? — There does exist such want of confidence ; after the
short discussion which took place in Parliament last Session,
I myself endeavoured to impress a contrary opinion upon the
minds of many with whom I conversed about it ; but I did not
succeed in making them think even as I did myself.
Does this state of the law operate by throwing obstructions
in the way of the building of chapels, and the establishment
of schools ? — Unquestionably ; it is a great obstacle to the
establishment of very useful institutions in the country.
What is the state of the lower orders of the people in your
diocese ? — I might say, that even in the lower orders we
should distinguish some grades, there are some of them very
low, but who yet have the necessaries of life ; but there is a
very numerous class who are extremely low, whose distress is,
doubtless, indescribably great. I am in the habit of con-
versing with many of this description, I sometimes visit them
in sickness ; occasionally I see them in their cabins ; my inter-
course with them is constant, and I might say extensive ; arid
*/ 1 can safely state to the Committee, that the extent and the
intensity of their distress is greater than any language can
describe, and that I think the lives of many hundreds of them
are very often shortened by this great distress ; it enervates
their minds, and paralyzes their energies, and leaves them
incapable of almost any useful exertion.
Are the numbers, who are in this wretched state, very great ?
— Their numbers are comparatively very great ; I would give
the Committee an idea of it, by stating what I know of it
from the last year. The town of Carlow and suburbs contain
about 8000 or 9000 inhabitants by the late census ; last year
the distress was something more than usual; there were of
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
375
the poor of Carlow 237 families, consisting, I suppose, of five
and a half persons on an average each, who applied to us for
relief in public ; and I should think, from the applications
made to myself, by distressed persons, that the number of
those, who would not go abroad to receive the food which we
distributed, might be about 500 persons more, there was that
number then in the town of Carlow. In the parish of Killi-
shean, in which I reside, we also enumerated the poor who
were actually in a state of starvation, and they amounted to
700, and some more, in a population of about 3000, or be-
tween 3000 and 4000 souls. In addition to those paupers in
that parish, I know that the distress amongst the great bulk
of the people was extremely great, so much so, that men
having cabins and a few acres of land, and perhaps a horse or
two, were obliged to sell even the furniture of their houses,
and to pledge their beds, in order to procure subsistence, and
this subsistence consisted of a few potatoes, supplied to the
family once in each day, for about six or eight weeks, or per-
haps longer. And I also can state, that this distress extended
so high, that I myself, and 1 regret very much being obliged
to introduce myself so frequently ; but, as the mention of
myself is necessary, in order to make the case clear, I do it,
however reluctantly ; I myself, have been obliged to lend
money to almost the largest occupiers of land in the parish
where I live, to buy seed for their farms ; and if I, or some
other charitable person had not done so, the land would have
remained untilled. The Committee can perceive then, that
not only the 700 paupers who were in a state of starvation,
but also a great proportion of the remaining part, were reduced
to the difficulties I mention. And, though the last year was
a year of more than ordinary distress, yet I am confident, from
the great number of poor not employed, and the small stock
of provisions which they are enabled to preserve for the
summer, that the season which is now approaching will be as
pressing nearly as that which is passed.
Was last year a year of any extraordinary distress ? — I can-
not call it a year of very extraordinary distress ; but it was a
year of much more than ordinary distress.
Was the distress as great as it was in 1822? — By no
means.
Then, is it your opinion, that this state of distress will be
in some degree a matter of ordinary occurrence at particular
seasons of the year ? — That we will have great distress every
summer, whilst the present state of things continues, is a
matter of course ; it will be greater or less in proportion, as
the potatoe-crop happens to be good or otherwise, but that we
376 DR, DQYLE EXAMINED.
will have a great deal of it each year, is a matter to be counted
upon as certain.
What is the reason you mentioned the summer, as a period
of particular distress ? — The poor people in general collect a
little dung, (they have no land) this dung they put upon a
piece of land given to them by a farmer, and it produces to
them a little stock of potatoes ; this, with their earnings, sup-
ports them until, suppose, March or April, then their entire
stock is exhausted ; and when the summer advances, particu-
larly the latter part of it, before the harvest comes in, they
Lave no means at all of support ; they have no employment ;
they have no food ; and they are actually dying of hunger.
Is there not sufficient employment during the summer, to
give them the means of purchasing even potatoes ? — By no
means ; till the hay harvest commences, you might get hun-
dreds upon hundreds of men unemployed ; when the hay har-
vest comes in, (and last year, the hay harvest being very fine,
many labourers were not necessary) ; not half the number of
persons disposed to work were employed.
In what manner does this large number of persons contrive
to live ? — The people who have some property are in general
very charitable, and they see that broths are made in their
families, and cabbages and roots which are very abundant,
boiled and distributed out to the poor. Again, the male part
of the family lie very frequently in bed ; during the day, the
wife or daughter perhaps goes abroad and begs about the
neighbourhood for some few potatoes, which she brings
home ; on these they vegetate ; and even an honourable
Member of this Committee, who is so well acquainted with
our poor, can scarcely imagine upon what a small pittance
one of those wretches endeavours to subsist ; in fact he is
almost like a savage of the American deserts ; he lies down
on a little straw upon the floor, and remaining there motion-
less nearly all day, he gets up in the evening, eats a few
potatoes, and then throws himself again upon the earth,
where he remains till morning ; thus he drags out an exist-
ence, which it were better were terminated in any way, than
to be continued in the manner it is.
Do you think this evil is likely to increase ? — If the laws
be not altered, and the country so settled, that people will
have a confidence in the peace and good order to be esta-
blished, and if English capitalists do not go to Ireland, and
those who have capital there employ it in agriculture, in ma-
nufactures, and in mines, I do not see why this evil must not
increase.
What alteration in the law do you contemplate, as likely to
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 377
produce those effects? — The abolition of all disabilities on
account of religious opinions, in the tirst place, because with-
out that, I think no other measure can have effect ; if that
be done, I should suppose that those other institutions which
are now in progress, and particularly the disposition which
seems to exist on the part of English capitalists, to transfer
their money to that country, and employ it in industrious
pursuits, would produce those effects to which I allude.
You just now used the expression, " the present state of
things," was it with reference to the circumstances last-men-
tioned that you used that expression ? — I used it with refer-
ence to the state of the laws, which keep every thing unset-
tled, and every thing insecure, and which discourages men
of capital and industry from embarking both in the improve-
ment of the state of Ireland, and the advancement of their
own fortunes.
Is that only a general observation, or have any instances
come within your knowledge, in which those laws have dis-
couraged persons from embarking capital in Ireland ? — It is
rather a general observation than one founded upon a know-
ledge of particular facts ; but, however, this general ob-
servation is one that is founded upon a general notoriety as
to the state of things, which notoriety, I think, is in itself
a sufficient proof that the observation is not light or unfounded.
Have any circumstances contributed, particularly in the
district you have spoken of, to increase the large amount of
population you have described, to an amount so much beyond
the means of employment ? — I live in the vicinity, as I men-
tioned, of a very considerable town, into which there has
been a great influx of poor people from the country, who oc-
cupy little dwellings, hoping to live by their labour. I speak
of Carlow and its immediate vicinity ; now, whilst the prices
of corn were very high, there were mountainous districts and
marshy lands, chiefly in the Queen's County, not far from
us, which afforded to the people some support ; and this sup-
port failing, they, not being able to pay their rent, were
obliged to relinquish their habitations, and crowd down upon
us ; this is one cause.
Do very early marriages prevail amongst the poor t — I find
also, that those poor people, without care or precaution, in-
termarry one with the other, even when they have no prospect
of being able to support a family ; and those early and im-
provident marriages, I think also, are a cause why we are
oppressed with this starving population.
The town of Carlow is, in general, in a much more flou-
rishing condition than other towns in the south of Ireland ?— -
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
I can only say, that if it be, those other towns must be
wretched beyond all conception ; for I speak of the state of
Carlow from actual knowledge and observation.
Is there any manufacture there ? — There is no manufacture,
of what kind soever, in it ; we have been endeavouring,
and have made great efforts to encourage the spinning of
coarse linen yarn ; we have not, however, succeeded, to any
considerable extent. I have, myself, made a great effort
within the last year, to seek to have children taught the ma-
nufacture of bonnets. I have lately sent a person to be in-
structed in the stitching those bonnets which we call Leghorn
bonnets ; and upon her return, I hope some progress will be
made in it, and that females may get employment to a con-
siderable extent, either in spinning or bonnet-making : but
except those, which are very trifling indeed, we have no ma-
nufactures of any kind whatsoever.
Then when you spoke of the great and unemployed popula-
tion of the neighbourhood in which you reside, did you mean
to refer to the neighbourhood of Carlow particularly, or
did you mean that the same thing exists in the other parishes
within your diocese ? — Yes. I am intimately acquainted with
all the parishes, and all the towns in the diocese of Kiidare
and Leighlin ; and as far as I am acquainted, there is very
great distress in all of them ; but I think there is a greater
proportion of distress in Carlow than in any other town in my
diocese ; but that impression may result from my being more
intimately acquainted with that parish than with any other.
Has the subdivision of land in that part of the country
contributed much to this increase of redundant population ?
— Yes.
Has that gone to a great extent ? — In the county of Carlow
it has not gone to a very great extent, in the county of Kii-
dare it has not gone to a very great extent, in the Queen's
County it has gone to a greater extent ; those three counties
are almost entirely within my diocese ; I have also portions of
the county of Kilkenny, the county of Wexford, the county
of Wicklow, and the King's County, and here too I think the
population, particularly in the county of Wicklow and the
King's County, has increased considerably from that cause.
Is that subdivision of land generally arising from the ar-
rangements of the tenants, or from the circumstance of their
holding in joint tenantcy from their landlord ? — It is derived
from both those causes ; I have known some instances where
it has proceeded from that joint tenantcy, and many instances,
perhaps more than in the other, where it has arisen from the
DR, DOYLE EXAMINED. 379
subdivision of land occasioned by the necessities or conveni-
ence of poor families.
Is there not a very extensive district of country called The
Colliery country, which thirty years ago was almost destitute
of inhabitants, that is now covered with a very dense popu-
lation ? — Yes, that very large tract of country has been co-
vering with a dense population during the last twenty or
thirty years, as I should suppose, and previous to that it was
almost a waste.
Is that district of country twelve or fourteen miles square ?
— It is at least twelve or fourteen miles long ; it is not so
wide, but it is nearly.
In speaking of Carlow, do you not include the large village
of Graigue ? — Yes, I include the suburbs.
Have any other causes, besides those you have alluded to,
tended in your opinion to increase the population in an ex-
cessive degree ? — The population is immediately increased, as
every one must perceive, by improvident marriages ; but
those marriages themselves, in my opinion, result in a great
measure from the extreme poverty of the people, for that po-
verty has paralyzed their energies, it has prevented their
taking such an interest in creating a respectable situation for
themselves in life, as men possessed of some property always
feel ; for those wretched people say, their state cannot be
worse when married than before, and hence they go together.
Moreover, when the head of a family is extremely poor, he
lives in a wretched cabin, and has only one apartment where
he and his children dwell ; it is so with his neighbour, and
there is then a constant intercourse kept up in these small
dwellings, so that the different sexes are mixed up together,
and that respectful distance which is always observed in fa-
milies of any thing of rank, is lost entirely amongst the poor.
Hence it is, that if those people had some property that
would give them education and a feeling of self respect, and
would put them as it were upon their energies to seek a liveli-
hood, they would look before them before they married ; but
now their very depression and their extreme poverty throws
them together like so many savages in a wood. It is a fright-
ful state of society, and when it is considered, it fills one
with so much pain and horror, that I have frequently prayed
to God, if it were his will, rather to take me out of life than
leave me to witness such evils, if they were to continue ; they
are beyond the endurance of human nature.
Have the landlords of the country, in your opinion, with a
view to receiving a higher rent, or with a view to other ob-
jects, increased the population by encouraging the subdivision
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
of land? — Upon my word I think they have, in many cases,
done so, with a view to receiving a higher rent.
In point of fact, is a higher rent given, or rather pro-
mised, for land, when subdivided in this manner ? — Yes ;
those poor people promise any thing almost for land, in order
to get possession of it.
Do you think that the desire of registering a great number
of freeholders, for instance, has contributed on some estates
to the same result ? — It has contributed, on some estates, to
the subdivision of land, and to the creation of joint te-
nantcies.
Has that gone to a great extent of abuse or ill consequence in
those parts of the country with which you are acquainted ? —
It has not gone to a great extent in that part of the country
with which I am best acquainted. In Kildare it has not gone
to a great extent, because we have not had a contested election
there from time almost immemorial ; in the county of Carlow
it has not gone to a great extent, if I were to except the pro-
perties of three or four gentlemen ; in the Queen's county it
has gone to a considerable extent.
You have given to the Committee a very painful and a very
true picture of the state of the peasantry in some of those dis-
tricts ; are the peasantry, such as you describe, in many in-
stances possessors of the elective franchise ? — No ; the class
of peasantry, which I describe as labouring under that ex-
treme distress, are not, or but very few of them; but the
Committee will recollect, that I presented to them a kind of
scale of the poor. The great and most numerous class of
those wretched beings have no elective franchise ; then of the
class which comes immediately above them, many have the
elective franchise.
Do you know any instances in which Roman Catholics in
Ireland, having a difficulty in finding the means of paying the
clergy of their own persuasion for marriages, have applied to
Protestant clergymen to be married ? — Certainly I have never
heard of an instance of that kind in the diocese where I live,
because a priest in the diocese of Kildare and Leighli v 1 o
refused to marry any one, would on that account be sus-
pended.
That is owing to a regulation made by you in the diocese ;
that regulation is not essential to the discipline of the dio-
cese ? — It is a statute in my diocese, it is not a general law
throughout the church of Ireland.
Could you state to the Committee from memory, what is the
purport of the oath which a Roman Catholic bishop takes
upon his ordination ? — I really could not ; the substance of it
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 381
is, that they profess canonical obedience to the Pope, and will
receive honourably his legate going or coming, and various
other things \vhich I could not state with any degree of ac-
curacy.
Could you furnish the Committee with a correct copy of the
oath ? — I am sure I could borrow a pontifical from the vicar
apostolic, who lives in town.
Will you explain the distinction between a vicar apostolic
and a Roman Catholic bishop ? — We have the title by the
appointment we receive to a see, as Roman Catholic bishop
of it, whilst the vicar apostolic is only a delegate from the
see of Rome to administer the interests of religion within any
district which may be assigned to him, and therefore is re-
movable at the will and pleasure of the Pope ; but a bishop,
such as we are in Ireland, cannot be removed when he is once
appointed.
Is there any distinction between the power of a vicar
apostolic and a Roman Catholic bishop, as to the power of
withholding the publication of any bull or rescript from the
see of Rome? — I should think there is a material difference,
because the vicar apostolic depends, as to the existence of his
office, upon the will of the see of Rome, he can be removed
from it at the good pleasure of the Pope ; the faculties which
he exercises can be restricted or limited, or modified, just as
the see of Rome may please. It is not so with us bishops, we
cannot be removed, we have a title to our place ; our rights
are defined from the gospel and from the canon law, defined
as well as those of the pope himself; we cannot be obliged
to do any thing by the mere good will or pleasure of the
Pope.
In the year 1799, the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland,
at that time, resolved, that in the appointment of prelates of ^^/^t
the Roman Catholic religion to vacant sees within the king-
dom, such interference of government as may enable it to be
satisfied of the loyalty of the persons appointed, is just, and
ought to be agreed to; do you think the Roman Catholic
prelates at present entertain the opinion that was expressed // '
by the Roman Catholic prelates in 1799 ?— If I were to pre-
tend to speak the sentiments of the Roman Catholic prelates
I might deceive myself, arid deceive the Committee, and there-
fore I think it would be safer in communicating information,
that I should only give my own private sentiments, for I do
think I could not speak the sentiments of others with any
degree of confidence ; men's minds are so different, and it is
so delicate a matter to pretend to speak for others, that I
would not undertake at all to do it.
i
*?J & t A J A V IT
M <*,*+- ^v^t
382 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Do you dissent from the opinion which was expressed by
the Roman Catholic prelates in Ireland? — I cannot say I dis-
sent ; but if what is meant there would go to imply, that in
order to ascertain the loyalty of the person to be appointed,
the Crown should have a direct or indirect interference with
such appointment, then I do dissent from it ; but if a mode
of ascertaining the loyalty of the person to be appointed can
be devised, which would not imply a right on the part of the
Crown to interfere, directly or indirectly, with his appoint-
ment, I should fully agree then with the resolution ; for there
is no one in the country who would be more anxious that the
Crown should be fully satisfied of the loyalty of the person
appointed, than I would, for I think it essential to the well-
being of the state, that perfect confidence should prevail be-
tween His Majesty's government, and every class of his
subjects.
You are acquainted with the provisions which were made
in the Bill that passed the House of Commons, in the year
1821, for the purpose of procuring that assurance as to the
loyalty of the person appointed ? — I have some vague recollec-
tion of what the provisions were.
Do you recollect enough of them to express any opinion,
as to whether it is likely that the Roman Catholic prelates in
Ireland would see with satisfaction the re-enactment of those
provisions t — I should think they would not ; and for my own
part, I do say I would not.
Can you suggest any other mode of taking security for the
loyalty t>f the person appointed, than that which was provided
by the Bill of 1821 ? — My notions upon the subject are these :
I am fully convinced, that if the disabilities under which the
Roman Catholics labour were removed, we would be so in-
corporated by interest and affection with the State, that the
same pledge which is required of His Majesty's other subjects,
namely, the oath of allegiance, would be quite sufficient to
secure our attachment, at all times, to the Crown and to the
institutions of the country ; for our religion, our church
rather, is in its nature monarchical, it has, I might say, a
natural tendency to support a kingly government, and if it
were to do any thing to disturb or destroy the institutions
existing in these countries, it would be acting contrary, as it
were, to its own nature ; moreover, we in Ireland, if we were
incorporated with the State, would feel a most intense interest
in promoting the interests of our own country, without refer-
ence to religious distinctions ; there would be a bond arising
out of our affections and natural inclinations.which would secure
to the Crown our allegiance, better than any provision which
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 383
can possibly be made; further, we being thus incorporated with
the State, and our affections secured to the King and his
government, we would be enabled to render to both much
greater services, than we could if by a provision, such as has
been alluded to, we were connected with them by law, as the
nature of the church is to connect itself, perhaps too closely,
with the Crown ; when it does so, it more or less loses the
confidence which the people should have in their religious
teachers, finding them not only men of religious characters,
but also men who have political interests. If you leave our
church unconnected by especial agreement with the Crown,
you leave us to exercise over a country that is somewhat dis-
tant from the seat of government, a most salutary and whole-
some influence, an influence which we would exercise natu-
rally ; because, by the exercise of it, we would only be con-
firming the principles of our own church, and labouring for
the security and eminence of the State to which we belong.
If, on the contrary, you bind us to you by an arrangement of
that external kind which has been mentioned, you may make
us strongly attached to you, but in proportion as you connect
us more closely with you, you will remove from us, and thereby
remove from the State, the people over whom we exercise
jurisdiction ; so that whilst you seek by such an arrangement
to secure our useful influence, you in fact weaken that influ-
ence where it could be advantageously applied for you. And
I am convinced in my soul, — I never spoke without sincerity,
but I never spoke more from the fulness of my heart than I
do at this present moment — that if we were freed from the
disabilities under which we labour, we have no mind, and no
thought, and no will, but that which would lead us to incor-
porate ourselves fully and essentially with this great king-
dom ; for it would be our greatest pride to share in the
glories and the riches of England. Whilst then we are, as
prelates of the Catholic church, jealous of the interference of
the Crown, I think it may be collected from the sentiments I
delivered on a former day, and on this, that we are not less
jealous of the interference of the Pope ; we are zealous for the
independence of our church, and we do not like that either the
Pope should interfere with it beyond what is necessary for
preserving the Catholic communion, nor do we like that an
interference of the Crown should be established in the ap-
pointment of our prelates, which would weaken our influence
with the people ; an interference which, under a bad minister,
(and there have been bad ministers in every state,) might be
made use of to put into places of great responsibility, men
who would be unfit to fill them, either to the advantage of
384 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
religion or for the benefit of the State. Entertaining, then,
as I do, these notions which I have expressed, I must feel, and
I do say that, in my opinion, the best security we can offer,
and the most effectual one that could be required of us, is,
that our prelates be of a domestic kind ; that the election of
them be made by men resident in the country, and who are
British subjects ; and that there be no further interference
with them, than that interference which would result from all
persons concerned in such elections taking the oath of allegi-
ance ; and that they would elect only such persons as would
be loyal and peaceable, and likely to discharge the trust re-
posed in them, in a manner useful to the State, and honour-
able to their calling.
In the course of your last examination, you stated that if a
provision should be made by the State, for the Roman Ca-
tholic prelacy, you would refuse to receive it, unless it was
made irrevocable by law, excepting in the case of a convic-
tion of the prelate receiving it in a court of law, of some
known offence ? — That is what I stated.
You also stated, that if the court of Rome should agree,
by any convention with the crown of England, to give any in-
terference, direct or indirect, over the appointment of the
prelacy in Ireland, you, for one, after trying the effect of a
solemn protest, would still rather abdicate your functions as
a prelate, than submit to any such arrangement ? — Indeed I
would ; I would state at the same time, that I have no attach-
ment to the office which I hold ; and that, independent of
such a cause, I would cheerfully resign it ; but unquestionably
I would resign it rather than be a party, in any way, to a con-
cordat, in which a right to interfere in the appointment of
the bishops would be vested in the Crown.
Do you think that such a right as the crown of England ex-
ercises in the province of Lower Canada, is entirely inad-
missible in Ireland? — I am not acquainted with the nature of
the influence which it exercised there ; but I should think,
that it would not be unreasonable that a greater right would
be vested in the Crown, with regard to responsible officers
placed in a distant colony, than with regard to a bishop in
Ireland, who is mixed up with a community which forms a
component part of the empire itself.
Do you think, in case such a provision as that which has
been referred to were made, that it would be possible that
there should be any control on the part of the Crown over the
admission of bulls, rescripts, and other documents from the
see of Rome, into Ireland? — I know that in 1821, when a bill,
regulating the matter, was introduced into one of the houses
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 385
of Parliament, some strong objections were raised to it in
Ireland. At that time I had very little experience in those
things ; and on that account, I scarcely ventured to give an
opinion amongst my brethren in Ireland ; however, the opi-
nion which I did entertain then was, that the subjection of
this correspondence to a board was not a matter to be ob-
jected to ; because I thought, if things were arranged ami-
cably between the Catholics of Ireland and the British go-
vernment, that one of the bishops in Ireland probably, or if
not, a nuncio, sent from Rome, would be placed in Ireland
or in London ; and that this person would be enabled to
transact the routine business which is carried on between the
court of Rome and us ; and therefore I thought that this bill
would be a dead letter ; whereas another mode of transacting
that business could be so easily adopted, which would be ad-
vantageous to all parties ; but if the government should en-
tertain any jealousy whatever of the correspondence which
passes between Rome and us, I, for my part, and I can only
speak as an individual, might have no objection whatever,
that all the letters and communication which should pass be-
tween the court of Rome and me, should be subjected to the
inspection of any ecclesiastics whom the government might
think proper to name.
Do you mean ecclesiastics of the Roman Catholic religion ?
— I assure the Committee, I should not care who were to
compose the Board, if they were all laymen, if they were all
secretaries of state ; for my part, I have never received any
communication from Rome, nor ever will receive any which I
would hesitate to exhibit upon any of the public places of
. London, so that, upon that matter, I, as an individual, feel
perfectly quiet ; however, I do not say that the other Catholic
prelates think as I do about it.
Under the constitution of the Roman Catholic church in
Ireland, as it stands at present, could a foreigner be appointed
to exercise the functions of a bishop? — I mentioned on a
former day, and I repeat now, that the Pope has in him a
naked right of appointing whom he pleases to a see in Ire-
land ; but I added then, and I repeat now, that we are not to
suppose that he would attempt to intrude into our church an
individual who was not recommended to him from Ireland.
If he did so, I will not presume to say that such person would
not be received, but, however, I think it would be extremely
difficult for him to take possession of his jurisdiction, or to
administer in it the laws of the church. The Committee will
be pleased to observe, that I recognise in the Pope the naked
2 c
386 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
right to do so; but yet I think the exercise of that right is
morally impossible.
Do you recollect any instance within the last thirty years,
in which a foreigner has been appointed to a see in Ireland ?
— Not one ; there has not been a foreigner appointed to a see
in Ireland, as I recollect, since about the middle of the seven-
teenth century; there might have been one then, but only
one, nor am I certain that he was appointed.
Was not there an instance, in the year 1794, of a foreigner
being appointed?—*! do not know it ; if there was, as there
might be, it was not known to me.
By a convention of the government of France with the see
of Rome, a provision was made, that Jio person but a native
of France should be appointed to any prelacy within that
kingdom? — A very reasonable provision.
You think there could be no objection to a similar provision
with respect to Ireland? — Undoubtedly not ; I should wish it
very much ; I think it is most just and reasonable.
Could that provision be made by the Roman Catholic pre-
lates in Ireland, without the consent of the see of Rome ? —
No ; how could we have power to take from the Pope the
naked right which we state to exist him ; but I believe I men-
tioned before, and I repeat again, that if matters at home
were put into a train of settlement, the British government
would find not the least difficulty in entering into a concordat
with the Pope, whereby he would relinquish for ever the right
to appoint a foreigner to a see in this country.
Do you conceive the oath taken by a Roman Catholic pre-
late, upon his appointment, could be modified without the
consent of the Pope ? — Not without the consent of the Pope,
but the Pope has already modified it ; there was a part of it
which was objectionable, some persons did not understand it
in the way we did ; this was represented to the Pope, in the
life-time of the late Doctor Troy, in Dublin, and a rescript
was sent from Rome, whereby such clause of the oath was
modified to the satisfaction, I believe, of every person in-
terested about it. If a further modification of the oath, or
the substitution of a new one in place of the old one, were re-
quired by the British government of the Pope, I have no doubt
whatever he would accede to it, for there is nothing particularly
amiable in the oath we take at present ; and the object of it
could be as well secured by an oath to consist of four lines.
It could not be modified without a previous communication
with the see of Rome, and without the consent of the see of
Rome ? — Oh, no, it could not.
PR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 387
You have already said, that the principle of domestic no-
mination appears to you to be a reasonable one ? — Unques-
tionably, a reasonable one.
If that could be effected without any violence to any prin-
ciple of religion, or without interfering in any disrespectful
manner with the authority of the Pope, you would think it
would be a desirable thing ? — I do think it quite desirable ; to
an arrangement of that kind we might give a provisional con-
sent, but only that.
Do you think there would be any objection raised to
an arrangement of this kind, suppose the Crown were em-
powered to appoint a commission, consisting of a certain
number of bishops of the Roman Catholic church, and to
name that commission from time to time, that then it should
be required that no person should hereafter be nominated
either to a bishopric or to any function in the Roman Catholic
church, unless this commission should certify to the Crown,
either as to the loyalty, or as to the domestic appointment
and education of that person, or as to all those circumstances?
— It is a matter of so much moment, that I would hesitate to
give an opinion about it ; I know a commission of that kind
is in its nature one that would not be very acceptable to us in
Ireland, because we know that ecclesiastics are perhaps as
much, if not more, liable to be influenced by the Crown than
any other description of men ; and we would fear, that if any
intention hostile to our religion were entertained, those men
would become the tools of others in effecting that work ; and
I think it is a matter that would be objected to strongly by
us, though in itself it may be perfectly unobjectionable.
It was not intended in the question, that any power of no-
mination, or of setting aside the nomination, should grow out
of the recommendation of that commission, but only that be-
fore the person was admitted to the exercise of those func-
tions, that commission should certify that he was a loyal per-
son, and that he was educated at home? — Such arrangement
might be perfectly unobjectionable, and I cannot say it would
not be so ; but this I know, that any thing to be done previous
to the appointment of a bishop, would be looked upon in Ire-
land with suspicion ; and I myself being extremely young com-
pared with my brethren, and very insignificant in every point
of view, I would think, that as Doctor Curtis and Doctor
Murray, who are men of age and experience, and of great
weight with their brethren, happen to be in town, it would
be much better to take their opinion upon it than mine, be-
cause such their opinion would be in itself deserving of greater
2 c 2
388 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
attention than mine ; and would have much more weigl
their brethren.
If there should be an objection felt to an arrangement of
that kind, you think it would not be an objection growing out
of the nature of the Roman Catholic religion, but an objec-
tion of a political kind ? — Not certainly out of the Catholic
religion.
If there should be coupled with a general measure for the
settlement of the Roman Catholic question you have alluded
to, in the course of your examination, any arrangement made
for a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy by the State,
dp you think there can be any objection to this, that before
that provision should be received, or before any person should
be entitled to claim it, there should be a certificate from a
commission, such as has been already alluded to, of the loy-
alty and domestic education and nomination of that bishop ?
• — To that I, for my part, could have no objection ; indeed I
think it very reasonable, that before a man could eat the bread
of the state, the king of that state should have a full and
perfect knowledge of who he was.
You have already mentioned, that in order to make the in-
fluence of the Roman Catholic clergy efficacious for the pur-
poses of the public good, they should preserve their character
of independence, of which every body must feel the good
sense ; but do you conceive, that what is now about to be
suggested would at all interfere with their so preserving; an
independent character, if, in the first place, a certain and
fixed provision were allotted for the dignitaries of the Roman
Catholic church ; and if, after that, a table of the priesthood
were to be arranged, not by name, but by classes; suppose
you were to say there were to be three classes of them, who
should have each of them a different rate of salary, so that
one-tenth of them should be the first class ; four-tenths of
them the second class ; and the remaining five-tenths the third
class ; would you think it at all interfering with the inde-
pendence of character of the priesthood if, through such a
commission as has been mentioned, persons were to be cer-
tified to the government, upon their admission to those classes,
not giving the government any power but that of receiving a
certificate from such commission, of the fitness of the person ?
— I think respecting them, as I before thought respecting the
bishops, namely, that before they received a salary from the
state, every thing respecting them, which the Crown wished
to be informed of, ought to be communicated to it.
In the course of your last examination, you gave it as your
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 389
opinion that, in case there should be any provision for the
Roman Catholic priesthood made by the State, and that there
should be a classification of parishes, with respect to the
amount of the stipend paid to the incumbent in each parish,
it would still be necessary to leave to the Roman Catholic pre-
late of the diocese an absolute control over the appointment
of the priesthood, and over their transfer from one parish to
another, of greater value ? — I did state that ; nor do I think
such control would at all interfere with what has just been
inquired into, because when a man would be appointed, by
the bishop having this control, it might be made obligatory
on him, the bishop, to notify to the commission the descrip-
tion of person so appointed ; and until such notification had been
made, he might not be entitled to receive any thing, notwith-
standing his appointment by the bishop. I added, that when
such appointment would be made of this person, he should
not continue there, and be permitted to receive his salary, in-
dependent of the bishop ; so that although he might commit
a canonical fault, for which he would deserve to be dismissed
from his parish, he would still be entitled to receive the sa-
lary, to the exclusion of the man who might be placed to suc-
ceed him ; I would therefore desire, that if a priest were
placed in a parish, and thereby entitled to receive his salary
during his life-time, that in case the bishop notified that such
a person was suspended by him, or otherwise removed from
his situation, or that he had been obliged to resign it through
infirmity or incapacity, and that another had been appointed
in his place, I would desire, that this statement of his bishop
should be attended to by the commissioners, and that the per-
son last appointed should become entitled to the salary ; and
that the former person, though originally entitled to it, should
lose his right.
Supposing the bishop were to appoint an individual priest
to a certain parish, do you propose that the exercise of his
functions in that parish should be suspended until the com-
mission had certified his loyalty to government ; or do you
mean that the receipt of a stipend from the Crown should be
suspended until that certificate were received ? — No ; upon
the priest being appointed to a parish, I conceive that he
should produce to the commission the title by which he was
appointed, and that then they would state to government what
kind of person he was; and upon such statement being made,
that he should be entitled to receive the salary. I also think
that, if afterwards such priest should misbehave, or become
incapable of discharging his duty as a parish priest, the bishop
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
should have henceforth, as he has at present, a power of
punishing him, and even removing him from his situation
altogether, and placing another in his stead ; in which
event I would expect that this man, so removed from his
situation, would no longer be entitled to the salary; but
that the person appointed by the bishop to succeed him,
should acquire a right thereto, upon producing his title, but
not before.
Supposing a prelate were to appoint a person, and that
the commission were to withhold his certificate to government,
in what situation would the person appointed be? — In that
case there would be two remedies ; first, the bishop might
guard against the inconvenience, because he could give the
appointment to the parish only provisionally, that is, he could
appoint a priest to the parish, on proviso that he was ap-
proved of by the commission ; so that in case they did not
approve of him, he ceased to be the titular of that parish ;
or if the bishop pleased to give him an absolute title to the
parish, and the commission afterwards disapproved of him,
in that case the man would continue to live in the parish, and
support himself in the best manner he could. Among the causes
for which a priest can be removed from his parish, are these ;
if he be unable to discharge the duties of his state, if he be-
come infamous, or if he be odious to the people; upon one or
other of those causes, which entitle a bishop canonically to
remove a man from his parish, this person might be removed,
so that I think that is not a matter which could create any
difficulty at all.
What is the process of canonical removal ? — If a priest, for
instance, commit violence upon one of his parishioners, or if
he get intoxicated publicly, a complaint is lodged with the
bishop, by the person who has been witness of the excess, or
who has sustained the injury ; the bishop writes to this per-
son, or sends him a general citation to come before him ; the
person making the accusation, or a second person, proves
upon oath, before the bishop, if his word be not taken, that
he received this injury, or that he saw this excess ; and upon
that the bishop has a right to suspend that priest from his
office, or to remove him altogether, if it be a very heinous offence.
What is the nature of the certificate, which you think the
proposed commission might give to the government ? — I do
not know the words which should compose it ; they might set
forth, That the bearer is to our knowledge, or that he has
been reported to us by his bishop of such a place, to be a
moral man, a peaceable and loyal subject. Something equi-
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 391
valent to that would be sufficient ; but it would not be my
business to frame such certificate.
If you would admit the appointment of such a commission,
for the purpose of giving to government a security with re-
spect to the peaceable conduct and loyalty of the priest to be
appointed, it is presumed you would have no objection to the
same security being given by that commission, with respect to
the character of a prelate to be appointed ? — Yes, I would
have a vast difficulty.
Will you explain why, permitting the interference of such
commission with respect to a priest, you would object to it in
respect to a prelate ? — In the first place, the priests are very
numerous, and it is very possible that a person of objection-
able character might obtrude himself into a parish, on account
of the neglect of the bishop, or the influence of others ; and
therefore I think there might be persons against whom it
would be necessary to guard. In the second place, I think a
matter of that kind would operate as an insult, in some de-
gree, to that individual, but one that he wWld merit ; yet I
would not regard that in any degree as resting upon the order
to which he would belong. In the third place, I think very
decidedly, that the government might think it worth their
while to influence the election of a bishop, but I think they
would never descend to an interference, in that indirect way,
with the very trifling office of parish priest in Ireland. These
are the reasons which occur to me at present, and these ap-
pear to me quite sufficient, why I should establish that dis-
tinction in my mind. The order of office or bishop is so much
raised over that of a parish priest, that an argument with
regard to the one class, cannot in any case apply to the
other.
Your objection is, with respect to a certificate being re-
quired of the loyal character of the bishop ?— Yes.
Would the same reasons apply to a certificate of his having
been born in Ireland, or educated in Ireland, or of his domestic
nomination ? — No, I should have no objection to that being
included in the certificate.
In fact, the nomination of the bishops being domestic, the
loyalty of the priest being provided, the loyalty of the prelates
would also be provided for ? — Very true, because the bishop
springs out of the priesthood.
In the event of that order of things which has been de-
scribed, being established, the prelate would, in the capacity
of priest, have already obtained a certificate of his loyalty,
through the medium of his commission r — Certainly.
Would you allow a certificate, that the priest or prelate
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
about to be appointed, had been educated in Ireland, and
that that certificate should be a sine qua non of his subse-
quent appointment ? — I think, by introducing that, you go to
exclude from the Irish church, perhaps, some of the most de-
serving prelates who may hereafter live in it; for instance, a
young man may go through a course of studies in Ireland, and
he may afterwards go abroad, and study at a foreign univer-
sity, in order to perfect himself in knowledge ; now, if such a
regulation as is mentioned were made, that priest so improved
by travelling abroad, becoming acquainted with other lan-
guages, and extending his knowledge of those sciences with
which he ought to be particularly conversant, would be ex-
cluded from a dignified office in Ireland, that, I think, would
be very painful.
Supposing there was a power given to the government of
the country, on the recommendation of the Commissioners, of
dispensing with that condition, in the case of any person of
exemplary merit, should you then see any objection to it ? — In
our church, the idea of dispensing with any established law is
very odious, particularly since the holding of the Council of
Trent ; dispensations are looked upon with great jealousy ;
we consider every use of them as tending to relax the salutary
discipline of the church.
Suppose it was wound up in the law itself, that no person
should be appointed without a certificate of domestic nomina-
tion, except a person so recommended, it would then not be
a dispensation, but an exception ? — If there should be a parti-
cular case of that sort provided for by law, I cannot decide ;
but as to vesting in the Crown a right of dispensing with the
law, it is a principle which I, bred an ecclesiastic, and having
a kind of horror of dispensations, do not like to see placed any
where.
Do you think it desirable, that either by a provision of this
kind or by an Act, the ecclesiastics of this country should be
excluded from foreign education ? — I think it is very advan-
tageous to young ecclesiastics to travel abroad, and to spend
some time at universities ; I may be wrong in that opinion,
for I have received myself a foreign education, and I may be
on that account partial to it ; but, however, I am of opinion,
that men's minds are much enlarged, and their feelings much
improved, by residing in foreign countries for some time, and
by comparing the institutions of those countries with our own ;
travelling holds out many advantages which naturally flow
into the mind, by communication with mankind. I think it
would therefore be a great injury to the Catholic church, to
have men who might have studied abroad, excluded from any
DR, DOYLE EXAMINED. 393
office ; at the same time I beg* to remark, that there is no class
of men who could be possibly employed at home in our church,
who would be so much attached to this country and its insti- .
tutions, as those who had lived abroad. I myself never </£-
would have loved the British Constitution so much as I do,ur
had I not been acquainted with the forms of government/^
which prevail in the countries where I have resided. It is by/
comparison with other institutions, that the excellence of our ^
own is best known ; and I would wish that many people might
travel abroad, and compare what prevails in foreign countries,
with what prevails at home, amongst those who enjoy a full
participation of our Admirable constitution.
You have already said, thai, any objection growing out of
those reasons is rather of a political nature, than growing
out of the Catholic religion?— It is chiefly of a political6"
nature.
If the question, commonly called Catholic Emancipation,
were carried, are you of opinion, that religious differences
would cease to agitate the public mind in Ireland ? — I am very
confident they would.
Do the lower orders of the Irish take much interest in the
question of the penal laws ? — I know no class or description of
people in Ireland who do not feel a very strong interest in the
repeal of the penal laws ; those, perhaps, who understand the
nature of them least, are most anxious for their repeal.
Is it your opinion, that the question of Catholic Emancipa-
tion has excited a general interest among the lower orders of
the Catholics in Ireland ? — As far as I am acquainted with
the lower orders of the people, and I am acquainted with
them extensively, I do not suppose there is a man, a woman,
or even a child, who thinks upon any subject, who does not
feel an interest in the question of Catholic Emancipation.
Is it not known to you that a copy of the Catholic petition
that has been presented to Parliament, is hung up very gene-
rally at the present time, in the cabins of the Irish peasantry ?
— I dare say it is.
If an impression exists amongst the public in England, that
the lower orders in Ireland do not feel deeply interested in the
success of theCatholic question, do riot you suppose that impres-
sion to be an erroneous one? — Unquestionably it is erroneous.
Is not the exclusion of the higher orders of Catholics from
the highest offices of the State considered by the lower orders
of Catholics, as a mark of infamy and degradation affixed on
their whole body ? — It is so considered by them.
What effect do you conceive the carrying of emancipation
will have upon the tranquillity of the country ? — I think, if
394 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
emancipation were carried, that the whole of the Catholic po-
pulation would consider their grievances, as it were, at an end,
and those obstacles which exist to the improvement of their
condition, and the general interest of the country, as removed ;
and that they would look with great confidence, and at the same
time with unwearied patience, for the improvement of their
own condition. I am also quite confident it would produce
in them a feeling of satisfaction, of confidence and affection
towards government, greater than has ever been experienced
almost in any country.
What effect do you conceive Catholic Emancipation would
have, in inducing the feelings of the country to turn, and be-
come established in favour of the connexion between Ireland
and England? — I think the carrying of the measure would
make every man in Ireland sit down quite secure, to devote his
time and his attention to his own interests, and the great in-
terests of the country at large; and I do think, that the people
of England, finding Ireland tranquil and likely to continue
so, would then naturally turn their attention to that country,
travel into it, view its beauties, become acquainted with its
natural resources, and be induced to vest their capital and
employ their skill in the improvement of it.
You have had, as a Roman Catholic bishop, much opportu-
nity of intercourse with the Roman Catholic bishops and
clergy, and of speaking to them on subjects connected with
their religion, as it affects the State ; upon the entire of your
communication with them, have you any reason to think that
there is any wish or object, on their part, hostile to the Pro-
testant established religion ? — I have never discerned in any
class, or in any individual of the Catholic religion, either
clergy or laity, I might say, any disposition hostile to the
Protestant established religion ; on the contrary, I know they
have frequently deplored with me, the progress of sectaries ;
and that the characters of the Protestants were likely to be
changed, by many of them falling off from the Established
Church.
Have you read a recent publication, entitled, " Letters on
the State of Ireland, by J. K. L. ?"— I have seen it.
Do you hold the same opinions, with respect to the Esta-
blished church, with the author of those letters ? — I dare say
I do.
Do you hold the same opinion, with respect to the elective
franchise and the effect of attempts to disfranchise the 40s.
freeholders, which are held by the author of those letters ?-—
Upon that subject, as I happen to be an ecclesiastic, if the
Committee would indulge me by permitting me not to express
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 395
an opinion, they would favour me much. In this place I would
wish, that any testimony I am called upon to give should not be
of a political kind ; for if ever I took a part in political discus-
sions, it was with great reluctance, and only until the difficulties
under which the country laboured enabled: me to return to that
privacy in which I always wish to live. To give an opinion as
to the 40s. freeholders would be rather a political one, than one
connected with religion ; therefore if the Committee will indulge
me in my own inclination, I should much rather not give an
opinion; merely for this reason, that it is a political question,
and that I am an ecclesiastic.
The opinions, with respect to the Established church that are
maintained in those letters, are opinions held by you? — My
opinions, with regard to the Established church, if by the Es-
tablished church is meant the temporal establishment of it, un-
questionably are those which are expressed there ; but if by the
Established church is understood a church of religionists, pro-
fessing a certain religious creed, I esteem them in that character
more than any description or class of Christians in the universe,
outside my own church.
When the Committee ask, whether those opinions are held by
you, they mean, of course, to include any qualification that may
be contained in those letters? — I made the distinction, lest as
there may appear in that work, to which the Committee have al-
luded, a strong feeling of opposition to the establishment of the
church ; my answer might go to convey an impression to the
Committee, and through the evidence, to the public, that I am
as hostile to the establishment, in a religious point of view, as
the writer of the letters seems to be to the temporal goods of the
Established church ; in a word, I have a high esteem, and the
highest respect for the whole constitution of the Established
church, and even for many of its clergy ; but the same feelings
that I have for the constitution of the church, and for many of
its clergy, and for those who profess the creed of the Establish-
ment, I have not towards the temporalities of that Establish*
ment in Ireland.
Have you any objection to state your opinion, with respect to
the title of the bishops of the church of England to the exercise of
their ecclesiastical powers ? — It is an article of the Catholic creed,
I may call it an article of our creed, that communion with the
Holy See is necessary for the rightful exercise of spiritual juris-
diction in the church ; and as the Established church is not in
communion with the see of Rome, I would cease to be a Ca-
tholic, if I did not say, that I believed they want that spiritual
jurisdiction which is only found in the body of the Catholic
church, That is a tenet of my religion as a Catholic, still they
396 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
may be validly ordained, and they have certainly a legal, just,
and good right, to the property they hold.
Do you deny the spiritual character of the bishops of our
church ? — I do not deny the spiritual character of the bishops of
any church, because it is the ordination that gives the spiritual
character ; but the spiritual character is one thing, and the exer-
cise of a spiritual jurisdiction is another. I can best illustrate it
by what I was speaking of just now regarding a priest, who,
when he is ordained, receives as it were a radical power to ad-
minister the sacrament of penance, or to absolve sinners who are
contrite from their guilt ; but unless he get jurisdiction from the
bishop to exercise that power within a certain district, or over
certain individuals, he cannot exercise it. So in like manner I
consider, that in the Established church the bishops may be real
bishops, as much so as I am myself; but I think the spiritual
jurisdiction whereby they can administer, for instance, the power
of absolving the sinner from his guilt, they cannot have outside
the Catholic church. It is therefore that I think that the sepa-
ration of the church of England from the church of Rome is a
most lamentable misfortune ; but that opinion I entertain as a
Catholic, whilst a Protestant gentleman, of infinitely more learn-
ing and greater knowledge, may think that my opinion upon the
subject is quite idle.
Is the regular apostolic succession of importance, in that re-
spect, to the spiritual character of a prelate ? — Not with regard
to the spiritual character of the prelate, but it is with regard to
the exercise of spiritual jurisdiction ; they are two things essen-
tially distinct ; the one depends upon order, the other depends
upon being united with the Catholic church, and receiving
mission through it.
In the case of the conformity of a bishop of the Established
religion, to the Roman Catholic faith, would he be regarded by
the Roman Catholic church as possessing the character of a
bishop? — In the Roman Catholic church, there is a gradation
of orders; in the Established church you recognise three, bishops,
priests, and ministers; we have bishops, priests, and ministers;
but this rank of minister contains four lesser orders. Now, it is a
universal practice with our church, that when a person comes
from another church, who has not had his ordination through
each of those orders, that we either ordain him altogether again,
under condition, or that we supply what was omitted in the or-
dination or ritual of the church to which he had belonged. Thus,
if a Greek bishop, whom, we certainly recognise to be a bishop as
much as we are ourselves, came to us, we would supply all those
defects, which we conceive to have occurred in his ordination and
consecration. So in like manner, if a bishop of the Established
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 397
church of England were to pass over to ours, as the ritual of the
Established church differs from ours, we would supply in like
manner the defects that may have occurred ; and as something
respecting the Lambeth records is doubtful to us, we on that
account, that there might be no doubt afterwards with regard to
the validity of his ordination, make him pass through the entire
ordination ; but by doing so you will perceive that we pass no
judgment upon the validity of his former ordination, we only
consider that a certain fact has rendered the succession, even of
orders, doubtful amongst the clergy of the Established church ;
and whenever a doubt exists, we would remove it entirely from
the Christian ministry, and re- ordain under condition. For ex-
ample, if a child be exposed at the door of my parish chapel, it
may have been baptized before, as it probably was, but yet lest
it was not, I take it, and baptize it under condition ; so in like
manner, if a bishop came to our church, with regard to whose
ordination I have any the slightest doubt, I ordain him again
under condition, lest by possibility he might not have been or-
dained ; and then that the acts performed by him in the discharge
of his ministry might become invalid, to the great detriment of
souls.
Suppose you had the most positive testimony that the child, so
exposed, had been previously baptized by a minister of the Church
of England, in that case should you go through the process
again ? — No ; the baptism of a minister in the Church of Eng-
land is as good as that of the Pope.
The repetition of the ceremomy would only be in the case of
a doubt ? — Only in the case of a doubt.
Supposing you were perfectly certain of the ordination of the
bishop of the Established church, would it still be necessary to
re-ordain him, in order to convey to him the rank of bishop in
the Roman Catholic church ? — No ; but it would be necessary
to do with him as we do with the Greek bishops, to supply the
defects which occurred in his ordination, namely, to supply those
four minor orders which are omitted in the Protestant ceremony.
Would any ceremony of episcopal ordination have to be gone
through ? — By no means.
Would he then have the power of conferring orders in the
Catholic church, as a bishop ? — By all means he would.
Are there any Roman Catholic prelates in Ireland, who have
the order of bishops, but who are not attached to any diocese,
either as bishop or coadjutor? — Not one; nor have there been
for several centuries.
Was not the late Lord Dunboyne bishop of Cork ? — He se-
parated from us, and he remained bishop during his life.
398 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Are any vicars apostolic in England, bishops in partibus ?~
I believe every one of them.
It appears that, by a concordat between the government of
France and the see of Rome in 1800, it was provided, that no
national council should be held in France without communication
with the government, and the consent of the government ; could
a national council upon religious matters be held in Ireland now,
according to the constitution of the Roman Catholic church ? — I
do not know that there exists a law prohibiting us from holding
a council in these countries ; I have never known of it, nor has
it ever been intimated to me that there was such a law.
You are speaking of the statute law ? — Yes.
It would be quite consistent with the discipline and doctrine
of the Roman Catholic church, to hold such a council, in case the
interests of religion required it ? — By all means.
What would be the means of convoking such a council ? — The
metropolitans agreeing with each other, or the primate, that is,
the archbishop of Armagh (though we do not recognise him as
having a jurisdiction over us), still we would, through respect for
his office, assemble, if he called us together. In our church, the
C'sdiction of the metropolitan bishops over their suffragans has
n greatly lessened by the Council of Trent ; and as to the
jurisdiction of the Primate of all Ireland over the entire Church
of Ireland, that, I might say/ has ceased altogether, from the
time of St. Lawrence O'Toole; in fact, the office of primate in
the Catholic church has gone into disuse, I might say entirely ;
and they have become simple metropolitans.
If a council of that kind was held, would you esteem it a na-
tional council, or an ecumenical council ? — A national council.
Could an ecumenical council be called, without the authority
of the Pope ? — No.
Would it be consistent with the doctrine and discipline of
the Catholic faith, for the Pope to appoint a nuncio or
legate, or any officer of that nature, to communicate with the
Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland, or with a national council?
On the contrary, it is quite in accordance with our discipline,
that he should do so.
Has there been any instance of the appointment of a nuncio or
a legate, since the appointment of Rentoccine? — No; and he
came here as a political emissary, and did a great deal of mis-
chief.
Upon any matter relating to the interest of the Roman Catho-
lic church, such an appointment might be made by the see of
Rome ? — Certainly it might be made ; but no nuncio would come
to reside in these countries, because his residence here is illegal ;
t>R. DOYLE EXAMINED. 899
besides, he is a sort of ambassador from the Pope, and he would
not demean his master, by coming into a country where he could
not live with the honour that generally attends an envoy from the
Pope.
It was supposed, that the nuncio or the legate should be com-
missioned not to communicate with the King, but to communi-
cate with the national council of bishops, or with the bishops
individually ? — The Pope might send one for a special purpose,
to remain for a short time, and in a private capacity, but he
would not give him the title of legate, which is the most honorary
distinction that an agent from the court of Rome can have ; he
might, as I have said, send an individual as a nuncio, but not to
reside permanently in the country.
Had Doctor Hussey no such character ? — Never.
Had he no character of political agent? — Not that I ever
heard or knew of; and I am very confident he had not.
Was there any thing in the conduct of the Roman Catholics,
in your opinion, during the reigns of the Stuarts, that justified
the English Parliament in passing the penal laws against them ? —
Yes ; I think at that time, the connexion of the Roman Catho-
lics" with the Stuarts was such as ustified^and evea
cessary for the English goveriiment to pass some penal laws
<''& ; such as the excluding them from offices of
trust, anaperKaps even from the councils of the Sovereign ; but
rethink that the necessity which existed, and which certainly
would justify, perhaps demand of the government, to pass cer- a /
tain restrictive laws against the Roman Catholics, could not jus- fe ve-
rify them in passing the very harsh and unnatural laws which
abounded in the penal code.
Inasmuch as that conduct was hostile to the principle of the
constitution of England, and civil liberty, are you of opinion,
that they were in that degree justifiable ? — I do think they were
justifiable; nay, that it was their duty to pass restrictive laws
against the Catholics, considering the political principles of the
Catholics at that period.
Do you think there would be any objection, in case the ques-
tion of Catholic Emancipation should be carried, to the re-enact-
ment of such laws, with respect to the Roman Catholic church,
as were enforced in this country, when that religion was the esta-
blished religion of the state? — I am but very imperfectly
acquainted with the state of the laws at that period, in England,
but from the knowledge that I have of them, and it is very im-
perfect, I should think not ; however, the laws at that period,
regarded chiefly the appointment to benefices and alienations of
them, and giving situations, to which emoluments were attached ;
400 Dfc. DOYLE EXAMINED.
now the title of the Catholic Church to every thing of that kind,
has long since been extinct, and never can be revived ; and to re-
enact those laws, would be like making laws to regulate the winds ;
they would have no subject matter on which to act.
There were very strict laws enforced previously to the Refor-
mation, with respect to the admission of documents into this coun-
try from the see of Rome ?-— What I said before, I should think,
is the same that I would be disposed to say again ; namely, that
with regard to communications from Rome, as far as I am perso-
nally concerned, I really cannot see what objection I could have,
or ought to have, to any restriction of any kind whatsoever that
might be imposed upon them, provided they were permitted to
come into my hands, and I might see the purport of them. I
was going to observe, that at that time such restrictions were ex-
ceedingly necessary, as the Popes at that period pretended to have
in this country rights and privileges, which are now utterly abo-
lished, and never can be revived ; on that account, it was very
necessary that his correspondence with this country should be
carefully watched, and an interference with the rights of the
country and the rights of the Crown strictly guarded against ;
but at present, when no such right on the part of the Pope is
pretended to, such laws as then existed cannot be thought neces-
sary ; but if they were thought necessary, I could not have any
objection to them.
When were those powers formally disavowed by the Pope ? — I
do not know that they were ever formally disavowed by the Pope,
nor do I suppose that they have been, nor was it necessary they
should, because they have long since gone into disuse, and other
laws have been enacted in the Church, which supposed their total
abolition.
Where can the Committee find the laws which now define the
powers or pretensions of the see of Rome, with respect to foreign
countries ? — We can best find them in the usages of the different
churches in Europe ; and we are not bound to recognise any
of those ancient laws, which at all affected temporal rights.
Do the usages of the different States of Europe determine the
power of the see of Rome ? — Yes, the usages of each country
respectively ; for instance, in Spain, a usage, I think is, that the
Pope should have the nomination to certain dignities in each chap-
ter, upon their becoming vacant ; also, .that he should have the
power, generally, through that kingdom, to nominate to benefices
which became vacant in one particular month, or two months of
the year ; that is the usage of the Spanish church, in France,
for instance, I believe he has no power to nominate to any bene-
fice, either in the cathedral or out of it ; thus the usage of one
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 401
church grants one thing, and the usage of another church denies
the same thing to him in another country.
Can you state an instance of any country in Europe, being a
Protestant country, in which there exist Roman Catholic prelates,
with a provision of any kind from the State, in which the see of
Rome does not permit a direct interference, on the part of the
Protestant sovereign, in the appointment of the Roman Catholic
prelates ? — The only one that I know of, is that of the King of
the Netherlands, within his dominions ; there has no arrangement
as yet been come to upon the subject; and therefore, that is one
State where the king is not recognised to have any authority
whatever, with regard to the appointment of bishops ; and cer-
tainly if a see were vacant in the Netherlands, the Pope could
appoint to it, but whether the bishop appointed could take pos-
session of it, that is another thing ; perhaps the king might pre-
vent it.
Are you aware, that a negotiation has been pending for some
years, between the King of the Netherlands and the see of Rome ?
— Yes ; and I was sorry to hear it had been broken off.
Do you know, whether in the Netherlands the Roman Catholic
prelates have legal rights and possessions, or whether they rest
upon the same footing on which the Roman Catholic prelates
here do ? — In Flanders they have legal rights and possessions.
In that respect they differ from the Roman Catholic prelates in
this country, all whose possessions are dependant upon the pay-
ments of their flock ? — Yes.
If the Roman Catholic prelates were under any Act, to re-
ceive salaries from the State, does not it strike you, that it would
make a considerable difference as to the propriety of some inter-
ference on the part of Crown in their appointment, either by regu-
lation or by refusal ? — I think I replied to that question in sub-
stance, by saying, that I thought it just and reasonable, before a
Roman Catholic, appointed here to a see, should receive any emo-
lument from the state, that it should be certified to the Crown,
that he was a loyal and peaceable subject, by such commission or
persons as His Majesty might think competent to report to him
with regard to it.
You observe now, that the Committee are not asking with re-
ference to the propriety of the person who is to be appointed,
having been born in these countries, or having been educated in
these countries ; but they are asking now, merely as to the pro-
priety of his nomination belonging to a domestic body, would
you think it reasonable, in the event of a provision being made
for the clergy, that it should form a part of the certificate that
the government should have, not only that he was loyal, but that
he had been postulated by a domestic body ? — I before answered
2 D
402 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
that, I thought it most desirable, as well as most reasonable, that
his appointment should be domestic.
Do you think, in case the question of Roman Catholic Eman-
cipation were settled so far as regards the removal of political dis-
abilities, that there ought to remain any restriction with respect
to the public exercise of the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland,
any restriction as to processions, or the performance, in the most
public manner, of the ceremonies of that religion ? — I think,
wherever different religionists are living in the same country, the
carrying abroad in the open air, and exposing to public view the
ceremonies of any religion, is not consistent with sound sense, or
that prudence which ought always to govern States ; and there-
fore I think, that those processions in the open air, outside the
precincts of a church, ought to be guarded against, even by law,
if it were thought advisable; and to that I would make no excep-
tion, except as to the attendance of clergymen at funerals, and
that attendance I would have so regulated, that his clerical dress,
and the external shew which attends the performance of that rite,
should be exhibited only at the burial-place, and not paraded
through the streets, or through any place where it could offend
the view, or hurt the feelings of persons of different religious
persuasions.
You think there would be no objection to the enactment of pro-
visions upon that head ? — Really, I think it would be desirable
they should be enacted, for the indiscretion of foolish men, by
parading those things abroad, might create feelings in the com-
munity which would tend to evil ; I should wish that such pro-
visions were made.
Do you think it should be a part of Catholic Emancipation,
that the Roman Catholic bishops should sit in the House of
Lords ? — On the contrary, I think it would be most pernicious
to the public interest, both political and religious, that they
should ever sit in it.
You have been examined upon the subject of the kingdom of
the Netherlands, you are aware, that in the Catholic provinces,
which form a considerable portion of the kingdom of the Nether-
lands, and which have lately been united to the former state of
the United Provinces, the established religion is the Catholic reli-
gion ? — It is.
If then in those provinces, the result of a concordat with the
see of Rome, were to give to the sovereign of the country (a Pro-
testant sovereign) the nomination to the sees in those Catholic
parts of his dominions ; do you conceive there would be any ob-
jection, except a political objection, to such an arrangement being
made with respect to Ireland ; in a word, do you conceive that it
would be perfectly consistent with the discipline of the church of
DR, DOYLE EXAMINED. 403
Rome ? — We are reasoning upon a hypothetical case, namely,
that the Pope would enter into a concordat of that kind with the
King of the Netherlands; but admitting that he did, I not know-
ing the circumstances of the Netherlands, or the reasons which
might influence the parties contracting, cannot say whether it
would be a precedent on which I would decide, in my judgment
as to what ought to be done with regard to Ireland. But I re-
peat what I have before said, that looking to Ireland as I do,
both in a political and religious point of view, I think the inter-
ference of the Crown in the appointment of the Catholic bishops,
directly or indirectly, would be extremely injurious in its ten-
dency, at least to the interests of religion ; and I do aver, in the
presence of the Committee, that I think it would be still more
injurious to the interests of the State.
It might, however, take place consistently with the discipline
of the church ? — I mentioned before, that if the Pope entered
into such a concordat with regard to Ireland, that I should have
one remedy, and that it would not be painful to me to resort to
that ; I would express my opinion in the most respectful manner
to his Holiness, and then if it were not attended to, I would
give in my resignation, which I have no doubt would be ac-
cepted.
You are not aware how the nominations are made in those
churches in the Netherlands ? — I am not.
You stated, that the right of appointment to the vacant sees iii
Ireland was vested in the lineal descendants of Charles the First,
until they became extinct ? — I fear that I must have been mis-
taken, for certainly I do not wish to convey that idea ; I said
that the sovereigns of this country, whether the Tudors or
Stuarts, who were Catholics, had, as far as I can judge, the
right of presentation to the sees in Ireland ; but after the Stuarts
ceased to be the sovereigns of these countries, I think then, if
their recommendations were attended to, it was a matter of cour-
tesy rather than of obligation on the part of the Pope ; for the
right which he recognised in the Stuarts, to present to the sees in
Ireland and England, whilst they were Catholics, he must have
recognised in tliem because they were the sovereigns of these
countries. Now when they ceased to be sovereigns, and to have
jurisdiction in the country, I think if he still continued to pay
attention to their recommendations, it was not in consequence of
a right which he recognised to exist in them, but through a de-
ference to their high though fallen state ; I know, however, that
he did practically attend, in some instances at least, to their
recommendation.
Did he attend to the recommendation of the last Pretender and
of Cardinal York ?— Not of Cardinal York; I never heard of his
3D 2
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404 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED,
interfering, but I know, as a matter of history, that Bishop
Burke, who lived in Ossory, and who wrote a work that is in
the hands of all, called Hibernia Dominicana, was recommended
to the see of Ossory by the late Pretender, and that it was in con-
sequence of that recommendation, that he was appointed ; at least
I have known this from authority ; but since that appointment,
there has not one taken place in Ireland, to my knowledge, (and
it is a matter I inquired into very diligently,) for some years past,
which did not originate in Ireland.
In stating your opinion with respect to the Protestant hierar-
chy, you took a distinction between their spiritual and their tem-
poral possessions, and you stated, that however highly you
respected their spiritual character, as a denomination of Chris-
tians, whom, next to your own, you held entitled to respect, you
considered the subject as capable of being looked at in a different
point of view, with respect to their temporal possessions ; do you,
or as well as you can form a judgment, does any clergyman of
the Roman Catholic church, at all entertain any notion of trans-
ferring the possessions of the Established church to the Roman
Catholic church ? — I never heard, nor do I believe there exists
in the mind of any clergyman of any rank, any disposition to
receive, or to ask, or to seek to obtain, by any means whatever,
the possession of the temporal goods of the Established church in
Ireland ; and I will add, that for myself, and as far as I have
been able to obtain a knowledge of the feelings of those of the
clergy with whom I am conversant, I believe it is their opinion,
as well as mine, that were a portion of those goods offered to us,
we would decline accepting of them.
.Supposing the tithes now received by the Protestant church
were proposed to be transferred to the Roman Catholic church ?—
Unquestionably I would not accept of them.
Is it not one of the commandments of the church, to pay tithe
to our pastor ? — That is a command of the church, which is
found written in catechisms published where tithes were paid ; but
where tithes are not paid, the command in the catechism signifies,
or is, M contribute to the support of your pastor."
It was modified into those words in the year 1817, but the
other is reprinted in the recent editions of the Douay catechisms ?
— I have not a control over printers, but I do not believe it has
ever led any one into an idea that the Catholic clergyman was to
be paid by tithes, for we claim our support upon much higher
•authority than that upon which tithe rests. Our claim to sup-
port is founded upon the law of Nature and of God, That the
Jabourer is worthy of his hire; and upon the saying of the
Apostle, " Thau shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the
corn," and " He that serveth the altar shall live by the altar."
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED^
These are the texts of scripture, which, as well as the arguments
from reason, we adduce to show we are entitled to some land of
compensation for devoting to the service of the people our talents,
our time, and our labour.
Are not those commandments of the church considered of
equal authority with the commandments of the Table ? — The
commandments of the church are, first, to hear mass on Sundays
and Holidays ; now the law of God obliges us to sanctify the
Lord's-day ; and the church holds, that one part at least of that
duty prescribed by the law of God, is to be fulfilled by assisting
at the celebration of mass. In the second place, * ( Go to receive
your communion at least once in a year ;" now we conceive, that
God ordained that we should approach to the Holy Sacrament
frequently, or at least sometimes in the course of our life ; and
hence the Council of Lateran ordained, that every Christian
should go to communion at least once in the year. Thus, then,
the commandments of the church are only applications of the
commandments of God, as to time, place, and circumstances.
Are not they enforced, under pain of mortal sin ? — The com-
mandments of the church are enforced under pain of mortal sin,
such of them as are capable of binding a man's conscience by
virtue of the law of God, on which they are founded ; but, for
instance, that " contribute to the support of your pastors," does
not bind every man under pain of mortal sin, for we discharge
all the duties of our office towards the members of our church,
without receiving any compensation at all from a great number
of them ; and they are bound to contribute to our support only
in proportion to their means. Thus then we are to understand
those commands of the church, as being applications as it were of
the law of God, binding us in such degree as we ourselves can
plainly infer from that law of Nature or of God, from which
those commandments of the church are derived.
In an abstract of the Douay Catechism, now before the Com-
mittee, there are no exceptions stated ; are not the members of
the Catholic church bound under mortal sin, to keep those com-
mandments of the Catholic church ? — I can give no further
explanation of what I stated as the exposition of that command-
ment, which exposition common sense and reason dictate, and
there is no person can understand it otherwise ; for surely a poor
man, who does not contribute any thing to the support of his
pastor, cannot conceive himself as guilty of mortal sin, whereas he
is neither desired to do it, nor permitted to do it, nor required to
do it ; but the commandment of going to communion, at least
once a-year, he understands as binding him, under pain of mortal
sin, for the reasons already stated ; so these are matters which I
should hope would not lead any rational person into error.
406 DR, CURTIS EXAMINED.
Martis, 22 die Martii, 1825.
LORD VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, IN THE CHAIR.
The Most Reverend Patrick Curtis, D. D. Titular Archbishop
of Armagh, called in ; and Examined.
How many years have you been Catholic Archbishop of Ar-
magh ? — The last six years.
Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee, the nature
and origin of the authority of the Pope ? — A Roman Catholic be-
lieves, and it is an article of his faith, that the Pope is the successor
of St. Peter, who was constituted head of the Apostolic College,
the College of the Apostles ; and that the Popes succeed to him,
the same as the Bishops succeed to the Apostles, and that he has
the same superiority, which we call supremacy, the exercise of
which is regulated by the canons of the church ; he is no more
than a Bishop, but the head or chief of them all, and of the whole
church. We do not know him as a King or as a Sovereign, he is
but a Bishop ; that is, religion only recognises him as chief Bishop,
and St. Peter was but an Apostle, yet chief among them ; but we
suppose, and I think it is clear in the gospel, that he is constituted
the head of the Apostles, and head of all Christians. Christ said,
that on him he would build his church — on Peter — although Peter,
as well as the church, was certainly fundamentally and effectually
built on Christ, it is still very compatible, that the whole church
should be built on him, Peter ; and that he, after his conversion
(because he was to fall after that) was to confirm his brethren ;
and that he was to feed Christ's lambs and his sheep that is, the
common faithful and the doctors or pastors of the church. With
respect to any thing else that he may have, of temporal authority,
or his influence over kings and princes, (whom he has sometimes
deposed) he did very ill in doing that ; unless he did it in virtue
of authority that was given or allowed him by themselves. The
sovereigns that he generally deposed, were the emperors of the west ;
the empire was translated from the east to the west. The sove-
reigns of the west were then very ignorant ; they were a set of
intruders at that time, Goths and Vandals ; and they thought it
necessary, that there should be a certain number of electors, mostly
appointed by or sanctioned by the Pope ; he was one of the chief
arbitrators himself ; and those people, in order to depose him (the
emperor) often obtained the influence of the Pope, and so did the
other Catholic sovereigns, who often applied to him for temporal
as well as spiritual purposes ; the Popes all had, at that time, a
great deal of temporal influence.
DR. CURTIS EXAMINED. 407
Is the claim, which the Popes set up to Temporal Authority,
opposed to Scripture and Tradition ? — I do not think it is very
conformable to it ; I do not say exactly that it was opposed to it ;
but certainly he has received no such power from Christ. I do not
say but he received it from men ; the same as he received the
kingdom he has now, or at least the dukedom, the Papal territory.
Whatever he had, or has of temporal power or authority, he re-
ceived from men ; and, I believe, would have done better not to
take it ; he became a great deal less influential man, as a spiritual
chief, after receiving it, than before.
Does the obedience that Catholics owe to the Pope, detract from
what is due by them to the State under which they live ? — By no
means, we owe him no other than a spiritual authority, exercised
according to the canons of the church; not arbitrarily , but according
to the canons of the church ; but we owe him no temporal obedi-
ence whatsoever.
Does the nature of the obedience that Catholics owe to the Pope,
justify the objection, that their allegiance is divided to the States
they live under ? — By no means, we never profess any allegiance
to the Pope ; we take an oath, at our consecration, of fidelity, as
it is called ; what we mean to do is, to promise to him canonical
obedience, and so does the priest to his bishop, and the bishop to
his archbishop, but in a more limited degree.
Is the duty that Catholics owe to the Pope, and their duty to
their King, really and substantially distinct ? — Entirely distinct ;
and, regarding different subjects totally, they never ought to be
confounded.
If the question, commonly called Emancipation, was carried, in
your opinion would it have the effect of producing conciliation and
tranquillity in Ireland ? — I really think it would have a very direct
tendency to that. There would seem then to be no sufficient mo-
tive for any persecution or contest, as it were against the Catho-
lics ; they are now put down merely to keep up an ascendency.
There would be always an ascendency, but not an ascendency car-
ried forward in terms so repugnant, and so disagreeable. I believe
it would serve to bring people together, arid to make them forget
their disputes ; that there would be few or no disputes in secular
matters, and really none at all almost in religious matters, because
the religious disputes are brought forward against Catholics, not
for religious purposes, but for secular purposes, depend upon it.
The Most Reverend Daniel Murray, D. D. Titular Arch-
bishop of Dublin, called in ; and Examined.
How many years have you been Roman Catholic archbishop
of Dublin ? — Since the decease of my predecessor, on the llth of
May, 1823.
408 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
Were you coadjutor to the late Doctor Troy ? — I was.
How many years ? — Since the year 1809.
Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee, what is the
nature and origin of the authority of the Pope ? — The origin of
the authority of the Pope we hold to be from God, who established
a head of the church which he wished to appoint on earth ; the
nature of his authority is, that he is the executive power of that
church ; his office is to watch over and enforce the observance of
the canons ; he is, besides, the centre of Catholic unity, the great
link that holds together all the different parts of the Catholic body ;
so that each Catholic throughout the world, finding himself in com-
munion with the head of the church, may know thereby that he is
in communion with the whole body.
Is his authority confined altogether to a spiritual authority ? —
Wholly confined to a spiritual authority, according to the words of
our Saviour, " My kingdom is not of this world.11
Is that authority under the control of general councils ? — That
authority is limited by the councils and canons of the church ; he
is the executive power of the church, appointed to preside over it,
and enforce its canons or laws. Those canons vest in individuals,
for instance in bishops, certain rights, which of course, it is the duty
of the Pope to protect, and not to violate ; his authority is thus
limited by those canons.
To what extent and in what manner, does a Catholic profess to
obey the Pope ? — Solely in Spiritual matters, or in such mixed
matters as came under his government, such as marriage for in-
stancej which we hold to be a sacrament as well as a civil contract ;
as it is a sacrament, it is a spiritual thing, and comes under the
jurisdiction of the Pope ; of course he has authority over that spi-
ritual part of it ; but this authority does not affect the civil rights
of the individuals contracting.
Does this obedience detract from what is due by a Catholic to
the state under which he lives ? — Not in the least ; the powers are
wholly distinct.
Does it justify an objection that is made to Catholics, that
their allegiance is divided ? — Their allegiance in ciyil matters is
completely undivided.
Is the duty which the Catholic owes to the Pope, and the duty
which he owes to the King, really and substantially distinct ? —
Wholly distinct.
How far is the claim, that some Popes have set up to Temporal
Authority, opposed to Scripture and Tradition ? — As far as it may
have been exercised as coming from a right granted to him by God,
it appears to me to be contrary to Scripture and tradition ; but as
far as it may have been exercised in consequence of a right con-
ferred on him by the different Christian powers, who looked up to
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
409
him at one time, as the great parent of Christendom, who appointed
him as the arbitrator of their concerns, many of whom submitted
their kingdoms to him, and laid them atliisfeet, consenting to re-
ceive them back from him as fiefs, the case is different. The power
that he exercised under that authority, of course passed away, when
those temporal princes, who granted it, chose to withdraw it. His
spiritual power does not allow him to dethrone kings, or to absolve
their subjects from the allegiance due to them ; and any attempt
of that kind I would consider contrary to scripture and tradition.
Does the Pope now dispose of temporal affairs within the king-
doms of any of the princes of the Continent? — Not that I am
aware of; I am sure he does not.
Do the Catholic clergy admit that all the bulls of the Pope are
entitled to obedience ? — They are entitled to a certain degree of
reverence. If not contrary to our usages, or contrary to the law
of God, of course they are entitled to obedience, as coming from
a superior. We owe obedience to a parent, we owe obedience to
the King, we owe it to the law ; but if a parent, the King, or the
law, were to order us to do any thing that is wrong, we would
deem it a duty to say, as the Apostles did on another occasion,
" We ought to obey God rather than men."
Are there circumstances under which the Catholic clergy would
not obey a bull of the Pope ? — Most certainly.
What is the true meaning of the following words, in the creed of
Pius the Fourth: " 1 promise and swear true obedience to the
Roman Bishop, the Successor of Saint Peter ?" — Canonical obedi-
ence, in the manner I have just described, within the sphere of his
own authority,
What do the principles of the Catholic religion teach, in respect
to the performance of civil duties ? — They teach that the perform-
ance of civil duties is a conscientious obligation which the law of
God imposes on us.
Is the divine law then quite clear, as to the allegiance due by
subjects to their prince? — Quite clear.
In what books are to be found the most authentic exposition of
the Faith of the Catholic church ? — In that very creed that has
been mentioned, the creed of Pius the Fourth ; in the catechism
which was published by the direction of the Council of Trent,
called " The Roman Catechism," or " The Catechism of the
Council of Trent ;" " An Exposition of the Catholic Faith, by
the Bishop of Meaux, Bossnet ;" " Verron's Rule of Faith;'"
" Holden's Analysis of Faith," and several others.
The Committee have before them a petition presented to the
House of Commons, of the Dean and Chapter of the cathedral
church of Peterborough ; the petitioners say they consider as ut-
terly unfounded, the allegation of the Romish Church being at
410 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
present less ambitious and less intolerant, than in former periods
of its history ; what observations would you be disposed to
make upon that paragraph ? — I consider it a very unfounded
charge, which those who allege it should be bound to prove, or to
retract. I do not think, that any facts can be found to substan-
tiate that charge ; I conceive that the Catholic church is not into-
lerant, that the members of it are not marked by any peculiar
degree of ambition ; on the contrary, I find in them much hu-
mility, as much as in any other description of Christians. I con-
sider the charge wholly unsupported by fact.
Is not the character of the Church as referred to here, its poli-
tical character, the character of the religion, of the ministers of
the religion, and of the members of the religion, different to
what it was some centuries ago? — I do not consider that the
Church has by its constitution, any political character; as a
church, I conceive that its object is wholly spiritual, the sal-
vation of souls. I cannot conceive that it has any political cha-
racter, except such as the State chooses to bestow upon it ; our
Church endeavours to educate its ministers with feelings of hu-
mility and a sense of devotion, rather than of ambition ; and it
teaches them to elevate themselves, by their zeal in promoting
the salvation and happiness of men, rather than by any temporal
pursuits.
In respect of Faith, has any change taken place ? — With re-
spect to Faith, there can be no change ; the Faith of the Catholic
church we consider invariable ; its discipline is always changing,
according to the local circumstances of the different kingdoms
where it is placed.
You are disposed to deny, that at present, it is either ambitious
or intolerant ? — I wholly deny the charge.
The Committee have before them a recent publication, entitled,
" Justification by Faith, in a course of Sermons, by the Reverend
John William Whittaker ;" those Sermons having been preached
in the month of January, 1825. The Committee will read a para-
graph or two, and ask you for any observations you may think
proper to make upon them. In the second Sermon are the follow-
ing observations : page 30. " It has been above observed, that
justification by works, implies that ' we shall be rewarded precisely
to the extent in which our good actions exceed our bad ones ;' from
this it may be inferred, that any portion of the former will oblite-
rate an equal quantity of the latter.1' The Sermon proceeds, p. 81.
" If this be true, (and it cannot be denied by one who avows a
justification by works alone,) we have fairly established the merits
of the Saints and works of supererogation, which our Church has
unequivocally and laudably condemned in our fourteenth Article ;
those are the great bulwarks and strongholds of superstition. If
BE. MURRAY EXAMINED. 411
a person once believe in those supererogatory funds of merit, it re-
quires very little additional credulity to think, that the holy men
to whom they belong, can transfer them to whom they please, or
sell them, or bequeath them as a legacy to their successors. Hence
came that Romish treasure-house of merit, accumulated by all the
Saints in the calendar, which in the days of ignorance proved so
lucrative. Hence the infamous traffic of indulgences and free par-
dons for sin, which by anticipating guilt, tempted men to commit
vice, and under the pretence of religion, sanctioned the blackest
crimes. Hence even the invocation of the Saints themselves, and
all the blasphemies that attend this open and shameless idolatry."
The Sermon proceeds and states, " These dreadful results would
not, I am well aware, have followed that doctrine in an enlight-
ened age, because persons of information invariably forsake their
principles, when they lead them to contradict their understand-
ings, always preferring inconsistency to absurdity. But they are
the natural and luxuriant growth of an ignorant age ; and we
know by experience that, when they have once taken root, they
continue to keep their ground, notwithstanding the present diffu-
sion of knowledge." Does the Catholic church adopt the doc-
trine of justification by works alone ? — I perceive from the passage
which has been read, that my answer must be somewhat at large,
and I trust that the Committee will make allowance for the
wounded feelings under which I find myself compelled to make
that answer. I am really grieved that any Christian divine could
be found to utter such a charge against so large a portion of his
Christian brethren. It would appear from the first passage which
has been read, that our idea of justification is, that if our good
works overbalance our bad works, or if we perform a great quan-
tity of good works, that will empower us to do a certain portion
of bad works, and still leave us a sufficient fund for justification
here, and salvation hereafter. I cannot find any language suffi-
ciently strong to mark my abhorrence of that demoralizing doc-
trine. Not only is it true, in our belief, that no quantity of good
works or of virtues that can be practised, can ever give us liberty
to commit a sin, but we believe that after a long life passed in the
practice of every virtue, social and religious, one sin, one solitary
grievous sin against the law of God, would be sufficient to blast
the highest sanctity to which human nature, aided by grace, can
arrive ; and that after all that long life of virtue, this solitary sin
would mark out the individual so committing it, to the anger of
Almighty God here ; and if he were to go impenitent in that
state, into his presence, our doctrine is, that he could never see
his face in mercy. Thus then our doctrine of justification, is not
a kind of balance between our good and bad works ; our doctrine
412 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
utterly denies the lawfulness of any sin under any possible circum-
stance, and no virtues or series of virtues, that we can ever prac-
tise, can, under any circumstances, give us the least title or privi-
lege or liberty to commit a sin. How then, according to our doc-
trine, is this sin, once committed, to be blotted out ? Upon no
other condition, than that of sincere and deep-felt repentance.
No other good works that we can perform, will ever remove the
stain that has been fixed upon the soul. We may fast, we may
pray, we may give alms, we may go to confession and receive
absolution ; all is nothing towards the effacing of that sin, until
the heart is changed by contrition and repentance, and that re-
pentance must be so intense, and our hatred to that sin must be
so sincere, that rather than commit the same or another grievous
sin in future, our resolution should be to incur in preference a
thousand deaths. That is the nature of the repentance which we
deem necessary, as a first step towards the effacing of that sin ;
yet this is only the first step. After this it is required that the
criminal should go and humble himself to his fellow man in the
tribunal of penance, acknowledge himself as guilty of that crime,
in sentiments of humility and compunction ; he must promise to
repair any injury which that sin may have offered to his neigh-
bour ; and he must likewise, as a mark of his detestation for it,
receive with docility whatever penances or works of austerity may
be enjoined. Thus then we require all that every other Christian
denomination requires for the remission of sin, that is, sincere
and intense repentance, including a purpose of future amend-
ment ; and we require further the additional humiliation of con-
fession, the receiving of absolution from the proper authority, and
an intention to practise such penitential works as may be enjoined,
or as the nature of the sin may require. With regard to justifi-
cation by works, we hold no such doctrine as justification by
works alone : we always require faith through divine grace, for
Saint Paul says, that without faith it is impossible to please God.
Before justification, divine grace must touch the heart, and
awaken us to the knowledge of God, as the rewarder of virtue
and the punisher of vice. The contemplation of his attributes
through faith, leads us gradually to horror for sin, and the love
of virtue ; to confidence through Christ, in his boundless good-
ness and mercies, and from confidence to that divine love, which
unites us in friendship with God, and without which no one can
be justified ; all those things, it is true, we consider works. The
very act of repentance .that I have mentioned, is a work, and the
act of confidence and love of God, those are all works, but they
are also considered as the effects of faith ; all flowing from that
faith which, according to Saint Paul, " worketh by charity."
DR. MURRAY EXAMTNED. 413
To what authority can you refer to shew the true doctrine of
the Catholic church, with regard to Justification ? — The Council
of Trent most distinctly.
What is the doctrine of the Catholic church, with respect to
Indulgences ? — The authorities of the Catholic church have, in
virtue of the power of the keys committed to them, a power to
remit a certain portion of the temporal punishment due to sin,
after the guilt of sin has been remitted ; but in no case can In-
dulgences have effect, till the person is first justified and recon-
ciled with God.
Are indulgences ever granted for anticipated guilt ? — Never ;
there can be no permission to commit sin of any kind.
The Committee have before them a book, entitled, " A Pro-
testant Catechism, shewing the principal Errors of the Church of
Rome ; printed in Dublin, for Ann Watson, in the year 182J2;""
the Committee will read to you some of the Questions and An-
swers, and ask your opinion upon them. In page 9, there is this
Question, " How do the Papists treat those whom they call
Heretics ?" The Answer is, " They hold, that faith is not to be
kept with Heretics, and that the Pope can absolve subjects from
their oaths of allegiance to their sovereigns ?" — To one part of
that Question I have already answered, the Pope cannot absolve
subjects from their oaths of allegiance ; to the other I answer,
with equal distinctness, it is no part of our doctrine, that faith is
not to be kept with Heretics, in that sense in which faith is under-
stood to be fidelity to engagements ; we are bound to observe
our oath, our pledge, our contract, our agreement, with persons
differing from us in religion, in the same way as we are with one
another.
Is there any sense, in which it is the doctrine of the Catholic
church, that faith is not to be kept with Heretics ? — Only in this
sense, that our faith, that is, divine faith ; our code of faith is
not the same as that of Protestants ; so that we do not hold
spiritual communion with them.
Then in the ordinary acceptation of the words, it is no part of
the doctrine of your Church, that faith is not to be kept with
Heretics ? — No part of the doctrine of our church. I merely
made that distinction, lest I should be understood as applying my
answer to religious faith ; to the code of religious belief.
The common acceptation of the words, keeping faith with
people, is not that you have community of faith with them, but
that you keep your engagements with them ? — In that sense I
have answered distinctly.
Do not all Roman Catholics, in the oaths that they are re-
quired to take, for qualifying, and enjoying relief from the penal
code of Queen Anne, and other reign?, swear, " I reject and de-
414 DR. MURRAY EXAMI*vYED.
test, as an unchristian and impious principle, that faith is not to
be kept with Heretics ? " — Certainly.
That oath is willingly taken by all Roman Catholics ? — With-
out the least hesitation ;" most willingly.
In page 11, there is this Question and Answer, " Do the
Papists pray to any other beings, besides Almighty God ?"
The Answer is, " They pray to Angels and Saints, to intercede
for them, and save them by their merits.'" What have you to
observe upon that ? — We pray to saints, and we ask the prayers
of saints, in the same sense in which St. Paul asked the prayers
of his fellow men ; and we confide in the prayers of saints, just
as St. Paul confided, that the prayers of Philemon would contri-
bute to restore him to liberty. Whenever we pray to the saints,
we merely ask them, to present our prayers, through Christ, to
the throne of grace, in the same way that St. Paul asked his
fellow men to pray for him, that speech might be given him ;
and that he might preach with confidence, the mystery of the
Gospel.
Do Roman Catholics worship saints as God ? — By no means ;
we honour them, as the friends of God ; and we honour God, in
them, as they are his friends, whom he loves, and in whom his
grace has triumphed.
In page 12, there is this Question, " May we not worship the
Blessed Virgin, the Mother of our Lord ?" and the Answer is,
" Though the- Papists address many more prayers to her than to
Almighty God himself, yet there is neither command nor example
in the word of God to support such worship ; and she is but a
creature, it is downright idolatry ? "—We never address any
prayer to the Virgin Mary, to give us anything of her own ; for
she has nothing of her own to give ; all that she has is the gift of
God ; and when we pray to her, we merely ask her to present our
petitions, through her Son, as I mentioned before, to the throne
of mercy and grace : this we conceive, is not idolatry, nor any-
thing approaching idolatry ; for it does not give to any creature
the worship that is due to God.
Is it a doctrine of the Catholic church, that promises or engage-
ments made with Heretics, are in any degree, or under any cir-
cumstances, less binding upon the Catholic who makes them, than
promises or engagements made with a Roman Catholic would be ?
— In no degree, and under no circumstances less binding, than
oaths and engagements made to Catholics.
The religious faith therefore of the person with whom the en-
gagement or promise is made, cannot in any degree affect the
obligation of the promise which has been made ?— Not in the
least.
What authority has Gother amongst Catholics, as a writer
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 415
upon the Catholic religion ? — He is considered a very zealous and
correct divine ; he is very much in use amongst Catholics.
And his authority is received as sound ? — His authority is
considerable as an individual; the authority of no divine is
paramount.
In order to remove the prejudices of Protestants, Gother pub-
lished a work, entitled, A Vindication of Roman Catholics, as
also their declaration, affirmation, commination, shewing their
abhorrence of the following tenets, commonly laid at their door ;
and they here oblige themselves, that if the ensuing curses be
added to those appointed to be read on the first day of Lent, they
will seriously and heartily answer Amen to them all : First, it is
stated, " Cursed is he that commits idolatry ; that prays to images
or relics, or worships them for God ; " do you acknowledge the
accuracy of that doctrine ? — Fully ; I do not like much the idea
of cursing, but there is hardly any language strong enough to
express the abhorrence I feel, of the doctrine that is there
denounced.
Second : " Cursed is every goddess worshipper, that believes
the Virgin Mary to be any more than a creature ; that honours
her, worships her, or puts his trust in her, more than in God ;
that believes her above her Son, or that she can in any thing
command him ? — I fully concur in the rejection of that impious
doctrine.
Third, " Cursed is he that believes the Saints in heaven, to be
his redeemers, that prays to them as such, or that gives God's
honour to them, or to any creature whatsoever?" — I repeat the
same answer.
Fourth, " Cursed is he that worships any breaden god, or
makes gods of the empty elements of bread and wine ?" — I con-
cur fully, in renouncing in the strongest language which can be
used, that impious doctrine.
Fifth, " Cursed is he that believes priests can forgive sins,
whether the sinner repents or not, or that there is any power in
earth or in heaven, that can forgive sins without a hearty repent-
ance and serious purpose of amendment ?" — I consider the doc-
trine wicked and impious.
Sixth, " Cursed is he that believes that there is authority in
the Pope, or any other, that can give leave to commit sins, or that
can forgive him his sins for a sum of money ?" — I repeat the
same answer.
Then the thirteenth, " Cursed is he that believes that the
Pope can give to anv, upon any account whatsoever, a dispensa-
tion to lie or swear falsely, or that it is lawful for any at the last
hour, to protest himself innocent in case he be guilty ?" — I reject
the doctrine with great abhorrence.
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
Will you be good enough to describe to the Committee, tl
nature of Heresy, according to the doctrine of the Roman Catho-
lic church ? — The obstinate belief of error which has been con-
demned by the Catholic church, is called Heresy ; any contuma-
cious error in faith, any obstinate denial of an article of the
Catholic faith, is called Heresy in the ecclesiastical sense of the
word ; we at present use the word heretic very sparingly ; we
choose rather, as it is an offensive word, to say, " our dissenting
brethren," or " our separated brethren,*" or something of that
kind ; the original import of the word heretic, is merely a chooser
of his own religion.
Is it a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that there is no
salvation for heretics ? — The doctrine of the Catholic church, in
that respect, is very much the doctrine of the Established church,
and that of every other Christian society, who hold that man
owes to God the homage of his understanding as well as that of
his will, and that therefore we are as much bound to believe the
things He has revealed, as to do the things He has ordered ; and
therefore any one who, through his own fault, does not submit to
the faith which God has revealed, and ordered to be believed, we
consider as a sinner, like any other sinner, and, of course, to be
treated as such ; it is our belief with regard to ourselves, as it is
the belief of the members of the Established church with regard
to them, that ours is the Faith revealed by Christ, and ordered to
be believed ; that faith, respecting which he has himself said,
" He who shall not believe, shall be condemned." We wish all
mankind to be saved, but we are not to make a religion according
to our own wishes ; we must submit to the decrees of Providence,
that has arranged it otherwise; and since the Gospel of Christ
requires faith, as an essential requisite for salvation, we must bow
with reverence to that decree ; we cannot make a Gospel through
a mistaken liberality, and lead people into error, by telling them
they are safe in choosing a religion for themselves, such as may
appear best to them, except they employ the usual means to
arrive at a knowledge of that faith which God requires of them.
With respect to Protestants, however, I must say this : we do
not hold that all who are not united externally to the Catholic
church, are to be lost ; we even hope that many who are attached
to other bodies of Christians, may (not having a sufficient oppor-
tunity of becoming acquainted with the true Faith) be treated
with mercy before the Supreme Judge. All Protestants who
are baptized, become, by the very act of their baptism, members
of the Church of Christ, children of God, and heirs of everlasting
life ; and if they die at any period before they lose that inno-
cence which is restored to them in baptism, and their consequent
title to heaven, they will of course obtain that immortal kingdom.
DE. MURRAY EXAMINED. 417
At what period they may lose that title, or whether they lose it
at all, it is not for us to judge ; it is the business of God, who
sees into the secrets of hearts, and who knows the opportunities
which each individual has to arrive at a knowledge of the Faith
which He has revealed, and who will judge His creatures with
mercy. A person baptized, growing up in ignorance of what we
consider the true faith, and without the means of arriving at it, if
he do not commit any other grievous sin to exclude him from
heaven, will reach the glory of God's kingdom with as much
certainty as any one externally united to our body ; that is our
belief with regard to external unions. We hold, that faith is
necessary to salvation, because God has so declared it ; He has
declared, that they who do not believe, shall be condemned.
With regard to individuals, we pronounce no judgment, because
it is He alone who can decide upon the sentiments of a man's
heart. I beg to add with regard to Protestants in particular, that
in their infancy they are rendered, by baptism, heirs to everlasting
life ; and that nothing can deprive them of the title thus received,
to the inheritance of heaven, but some actual sin ; whether that be
the sin of refusing, through their own fault, to accept the faith
that God has revealed or any other actual sin. I believe the
Protestant church teaches something like that in its 18th Article,
which pronounces them accursed, who will say, " that every man
shall be saved by the law or sect which he professeth, so that he
be diligent to frame his life according to that law, and the light of
nature;" and in the 8th Article, it adopts the three creeds, one
of which is the Athanasian, in which the doctrine of exclusive
salvation is very distinctly marked.
Can you state the actual sin by which a person, once baptized,
loses his title to heaven ? — Any grievous transgression of the law
of God, whether it be a violation of faith or of morals.
The Committee find, in the abstract of the Douay Catechism,
a question is asked, " What is necessary to save a man?1'' the
first thing answered is, " Faith ?" — St. Paul gave the answer
before, when he said, " Without faith, it is impossible to please
God."
Then the next question that follows, is, " What is the opposite
of this Faith?1' which is followed by the answer, " Heresy;"
the Committee would like to know, if possible, the nature of that
heresy which is the opposite of saving faith, according to the
question in the abstract of the I)ouay Catechism ? — Any obstinate
error in matters of faith, is called heresy ; any culpable and
obstinate error in matters of faith .
Is not the non-participation of the doctrines of the Roman
Catholic church, considered heresy ? — When that non-participa-
tion is culpable, which God only can know.
2 E
418 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
Does not Calvin write as follows, in the 64th Institute, chapter
the 1st, " Extra ecdesicR premium nulla est speranda peccato-
rum remissio nee ulla salus?" — I think he does.
Is not the same doctrine taught in the profession of faith of
Strasburgh, presented to Charles the Fifth, in 1530? — It is
taught by most Christian societies.
In that of Switzerland in the year 1566, in that of the Low
Countries, and in that of Scotland in 1647 ? — It is so.
What do you consider to be the temporal punishment of sin ? —
The temporal punishment of sin may be either in this world or in
the next ; if it be in this world, it may be any temporal visitation
from God, or any voluntary infliction of penance by fasting and
Erayer, and self-denial ; and if it be in the world to come, we
old that it is in a middle place, which is neither heaven nor
hell ; a kind of punishment known only to God, inflicted until
the last remnant due to his justice, is purged away.
The temporary punishment of sins in this world, are sicknesses
and infirmities ? — Any means that God may think proper to em-
ploy to punish his creatures, or any austerities that the penitent
himself may, in the spirit of penance, practise.
Can a priest of the Roman Catholic church, by granting an
Indulgence, or by withholding an Indulgence, avert or accelerate
the wrath of God, as far as the temporary penalty of sin is con-
cerned ? — As far as the temporary punishment of sin is concerned,
the authorities of the Church can do so by the power intrusted to
them by God. The grant of an Indulgence is accompanied, as a
condition for obtaining it, by an injunction to perform some act
of piety; it is a change of punishment from one species of
austerity to another more suitable to human infirmity, a kind of
commutation, which commutation is admitted in the canons of the
Protestant church ; it is admitted, and laid down in Burn's Eccle-
siastical Law, that there are such things as commutations of
penance in the Protestant church.
Can a priest of the Roman Catholic church, by granting or
withholding an Indulgence, accelerate the course of a departed
soul through Purgatory, or retard it? — It is our belief, that
prayers in this world are of use to accelerate the passage of the
soul in purgatory to future bliss ; Indulgences, however, cannot
reach beyond the present life, except as far as God may be pleased,
through the merits of Christ, to accept our prayers for the release
of the soul in purgatory ; the Church has no power, by right, to
grant an Indulgence for the relief of souls in purgatory, except
by way of suffrage or prayer ; but our prayers, offered through
Christ for that purpose, are considered to be efficacious, in such a
degree as is known only to God.
Is it the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the most
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 419
undivided allegiance is due to the King, in temporal matters ? —
It is.
Is it the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, that the same
undivided allegiance is due to the Pope, in spiritual matters ?-^-
It is ; that allegiance which is due to him as spiritual head, and
which is limited by the canons.
That is the definition you would give to the limit of the alle-
giance due to the Pope ? — Certainly.
According to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, mar-
riage is a sacrament ? — It is.
Marriage also, the Committee suppose, according to the doc-
trine of the church, partakes of a civil contract ? — It is also a civil
contract.
There are certain degrees of affinity, within which it is not
allowed by the principles of the Roman Catholic religion for par-
ties to marry ; but suppose parties do marry within those degrees,
is that marriage void, according to the doctrine of the Roman
Catholic church ? — If within the prohibited degrees, it is void.
Would the circumstances of that voidance entail penalties upon
the parties in civil matters ? — By no means ; the issue of that
marriage would inherit in the same way as if the marriage were
wholly valid, because it is the law that decides that the marriage
retains all these civil effects that the law gives it.
Would the children be legitimate ? — In point of law as heirs.
In an ecclesiastical sense, they would not be legitimate ? — They
would not be legitimate.
Will you have the goodness to explain to the Committee the
penalties, in the ecclesiastical sense, which parties so marrying
within the prohibited degrees, would be subjected to? — They
would be subject to no penalties, that I at present recollect, except
the refusal of the administration of the sacrament, as persons
living in the guilt of sin.
Supposing a child of such a marriage wished to become a mem-
ber of the Roman Catholic ministry, would there be any objection
to instituting him to the order of priesthood ? — There would be
an objection, which would prevent his taking orders in our
church.
Is there any power to dispense with such penalties? — There is;
the Pope possesses that power.
Does a bishop of the Roman Catholic church possess it?-—
Bishops do not exercise that power in the Roman Catholic church.
But under no circumstances, would the children of such mar-
riage be subject to civil penalties? — No civil penalty whatever.
Should you, as a prelate of the Catholic church, consider the
issue of such marriage as legitimate heirs to the property of the
parents ?— Most certainly.
2 E 2
430 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
With respect, to any of the sentences of our courts, either
civil or ecclesiastical jurisdiction, would you consider that,
cording to the doctrine of your church, any coactive step could
be taken to resist those sentences, or to interfere with them ? — I
am not aware that any coactive step could be taken, except those
sentences should go, for instance, to dissolve the marriage, which
we, in our church, hold to be valid, we would refuse the parties
the sacraments of our church.
As to any civil measure ? — By no means.
In short, where the law of your church differs from the law of
our church, your sanctions are merely of a spiritual nature ?-
Merely spiritual.
In case of divorce, the Roman Catholic church does not allow
of breaking the matrimonial chain ? — No ; our doctrine is, that
what God has joined together, man cannot separate ; and when
once the tie of matrimony is formed, it is only death can dis-
solve it.
Suppose parties are divorced by a decree of the civil court, and
that either of the parties afterwards wishes for to marry, and
tnakes application to a priest of the Roman Catholic church to
marry them, will that priest refuse ? — Certainly.
Then if a divorce once takes place, neither of the parties can by
possibility enter into the state of marriage ? — Neither could con-
scientiously enter into the state of marriage ; but they can legally,
and that marriage would have the same legal effect as a marriage
formed with what we call impediments, that is, within the pro-
hibited degrees.
Still it would be the duty of every Catholic priest to refuse to
perform the ceremony of that marriage ? — Certainly.
Has the Pope a power of dispensing with that part of the dis-
cipline ? — By no means ; we consider that as decided by the law
of God, and the Pope can never dispense with the law of God.
There is a vulgar error, that the kingdom of Ireland is a fief of
the popedom ; is there any foundation for that assertion? — It has
no foundation whatever ; it is annexed, and I hope inseparably
annexed to Great Britain.
You take a distinction with respect to the differences between
the decisions of our ecclesiastical courts and yours, between that
class of them which arise from the interpretation of the sense of
scripture, and that class of them which arise from a difference
between the law of which you judge of the rules of consanguinity?
— Just so; the one is merely the law of the church, which the
head of the church can dispense with ; the other we contend to be
the law of God, which no earthly power can dispense with.
That law of God, no earthly power can dispense with, is de-
rived from your interpretation of scr'pture ? — Yes.
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 421
You do not conceive that the Pope has any authority to over-
rule your sense of the true interpretation of scripture ? — Just so.
Supposing Catholic Emancipation was carried, should you see
any objection to government allowing a stipend to the Catholic
priesthood in Ireland ?— In the event of Catholic Emancipation
being carried, and this arrangement being made a part of the
final settlement of the country, I would not see any material ob-
jection to the Catholic clergy receiving a stipend.
Should you see any objection to it, supposing Catholic Eman-
cipation was not carried ? — Very great objection. I do not think
it would be acceptable, either to the people or the clergy.
Supposing such a stipend was agreed upon and granted, under
what circumstances should you think that the Catholic clergy
would have a claim upon it?*— I suppose that the law would
regulate the claim they should have ; and that it should not be
revocable at will, but given, on the one hand, so as to preserve
the independence of our church, and on the other, to preserve
that degree of subordination which should subsist between the
inferior clergy and the prelates of the church.
Should you think it ought to be attached to the different bene-
fices, or given to the individuals ? — I think that would be a matter
quite of regulation, to which I have not finally made up my
mind.
Should you conceive there would be any objection to a certi-
ficate of loyalty being required, before such allowance was paid
to a clergyman ? — Certainly not, if that certificate were to come
from the authorities of our church ; I think it would be a useful
thing to have that certificate of loyalty.
Do 'you conceive there would be any objection to securing the
domestic nomination of the bishops in the Roman Catholic church
in Ireland ? — I do not conceive there would be any objection to
it ; I think rather it would be an advantage.
In whom is the nomination now vested? — At present it is
vested in the Pope ; but he does not exercise it, except at the
recommendation of some portion of the Irish clergy.
Should you think it an objectionable measure, to prevent any
foreigner from being appointed to a see in the Catholic church in
Ireland ? — By no means.
Would you extend that to all benefices in the Catholic church ?
— To all benefices.
Should you conceive there to be any objection to the Crown
having a power of interfering in any way, directly or indirectly,
in the change of the lower clergy from one benefice to another ? —
I would conceive that such interference would be liable to great
objections.
You would not conceive there would be any objection, on the
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy being promotec
one rank to another, that the same certificate of loyalty and do-
mestic nomination should accompany the change which accom-
panied the first appointment ? — I think it would not be liable to
any objection.
Do you think there would be any objection to letting the State
have perfect assurance, that the person to be appointed or pro-
moted in the Roman Catholic church, had not been educated out
of foreign funds, or out of funds at the disposal of a foreign govern-
ment ? — I do not think it would be liable to any serious objection.
I should not like to give up wholly the foreign education, because
it is calculated to excite a kind of emulation which I think useful.
The question does not apply to foreign education, but to edu-
cation provided at the expense of foreign states? — I know there
are some funds of that kind at present applied. I am not aware
that any bad consequences follow from the education received
from them ; for instance, 1 was myself educated upon a foreign
fund in Spain, and that fund was wholly under the control of
the King of Spain.
If it should be thought advisable, for the security of the State,
that that practice should cease, and if an equivalent were given in
this country out of domestic funds, do you think there would be
any objection to a perfect assurance being given, that parties to be
appointed or promoted in the Catholic church, should not have
been educated or supported out of any such foreign fund ? — I am
sure there would not.
Are there not at present some funds that were originally cre-
ated by gifts of Irish families, that are at present subsisting in
France, and claimed to be under the control of the government of
France ?— There are.
To what extent do you suppose those funds may go ? — I can-
not exactly say, but possibly about an annual income of 70,000
francs.
About 3000£. a year ?— Yes.
Have you any reason to believe, that the French government,
or any persons acting under their authority, have latterly been
expressing any interest about that fund ? — No, on the contrary,
the present king is giving more power over that fund to the
people in this country than was given before ; he has appointed a
president at the recommendation of the clergy of this country.
Do they claim to keep up an intercourse with Ireland, with
respect to the management of this fund? — I do not think they
claim a right to keep up an intercourse, or that they express a
wish so to do ; they consider these funds to be placed under their
guardianship, and they do not allow them to be removed from
France ; they continue under their trusteeship ; but latterly they
fi'ft. MURRAY EXAMINED.
have given us a great degree of power over them ; they have ap-
pointed a president, who is at the same time administrator of
them, an Irishman, a person recommended by us.
Necessarily in the administration of them, as they are at present
constituted, there must be some intercourse with respect to them,
kept up between Ireland and France ? — This administrator must
of course return his accounts to the French ministry.
They allow the persons to receive the benefit of the fund, to be
selected at home ? — They have no claim whatever with reference
to the selection ; there are certain families, who originally formed
the fund, and the representatives of those families, in some in-
stances, retain still the right ; and in other instances the right is
devolved upon the bishops ; and when once a person goes regu-
larly presented from the competent authority here, he is admitted
on the fund without any further hindrance.
Then all that they claim is, that the fund should continue in
France? — Should continue, and be administered, of course, under
their control ; till latterly, they exercised a very tyrannical power
over these funds; they appointed a bureau gratuit ; and this
bureau managed, or rather mismanaged, those funds very much ;
but at present there seems a better disposition, and they seem
more inclined to do justice.
If it should be thought expedient for the public safety, that
that fund should be put an end to, and that an equivalent fund,
entirely domestic, should be given for the same object; you
think there would be no objection to give an assurance on the
part of the Roman Catholic clergy, that the persons hereafter to
be appointed, should be educated exclusively out of domestic
funds ? — I cannot see the least ground for refusing to give such
an assurance.
The Catholic priests are now paid by voluntary monies raised
amongst their flocks ? — Yes.
If a stipend was regularly paid them by the government, under
certain regulations, in case of the question of Catholic Eman-
cipation being granted, are you of opinion, that the Catholic
priesthood would give up their claim to those fees now paid by
their flocks ? — I think there are certain fees, established by long
usage, that they would feel a reluctance to give up, which are
received by the ministers of almost every church, on marriages
and burial services, and christenings; but the other voluntary
offerings which are given, they certainly would give up without
any hesitation.
Easter and Christmas offerings ?— Easter and Christmas of-
ferings.
Are there not fees called confessional fees, paid to the priests ?
—They are not, properly speaking, confessional fees ; but some-
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
times when the people assemble at what is called a station in the
country, for the purpose of making confession, they take the
opportunity which is afforded by that, to contribute their of-
ferings.
Are those part of the fees which you think would be given up
by the Catholic clergy ? — Certainly.
The fees on baptism, marriage, and burial, do not come within
the description of fees that you think the clergy would be willing
to give up ? — I think not.
Do you know what the proportion of fees arising from baptism,
marriage and burial may be. in respect to the proportion of fees
arising from other sources? — I really cannot form a judgment;
but they are considerably inferior to the other fees.
Would those fees upon baptism, marriage, and burial, be
decreased, if a general stipend was paid to the clergy ? — It is
very likely that they would be much decreased.
Are you of opinion, that there would be any objection in prin-
ciple, to the priesthood giving up the receipt of those particular
fees; or do you think the amount of those fees is the greater ob-
ject of consideration ? — I think the principle being so long esta-
blished, and such a universal usage, would not be relinquished
without some feeling.
It is the principle then, and not the amount of fees paid for
those particular purposes, that would be the object ? — Yes ; be-
cause the amount is less than those which they would be willing
to give up.
Supposing a Roman Catholic priest refused to perform the
ceremony of baptism or burial, because the fee was not paid,
should he not be subject to some penalty ? — He would undoubt-
edly be punished, and very justly, by his own superior, by the
bishop of the diocese, if a complaint were lodged against him.
Do not you think that a Roman Catholic priest should be
bound to perform those ceremonies, without the payment of those
fees ? — He is conscientiously bound to perform them.
You would leave the payment of fees to the feeling of gratitude,
and the feeling of good will that exists between the clergyman
and his parishioners ? — Just so. *
Do different classes of persons, according to their circumstances,
pay a different amount of fees ? — They do.
Is there any class from whom no fees at all are expected ? —
The poorer classes are attended without any fee, when they have
not wherewith to make that usual offering which is expected.
Will you state the amount of the different classes of fees paid
by different persons ? — It would not be possible ; it varies ac-
cording to places and circumstances, and according to the dis-
position of the people ; and that is matter of feeling.
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED, 425
In the case of a stipend being given to the Catholic clergy,
would that class which pays no fees at all now, be extended
much further ? — I think it would ; and I think those that do pay,
would pay a much smaller sum.
What power have the Catholic clergy to enforce the payment
of those fees ? — No power but public opinion, and a claim upon
the gratitude of the people, which is generally met.
Have they any ecclesiastical power ? — No ; they have no eccle-
siastical power ; they cannot inflict a censure without the autho-
rity of the bishop, and the bishop would never give his authority
for purposes of that kind.
You stated, that in your opinion, it would not be proper for
the Crown to have any direct or indirect interference in the ap-
pointment of the Catholic clergy ? — I think it would not be useful
either to the Crown or to us. I apprehend, that we could serve
the Crown much better by being left independent of it, excepting
indeed that necessary dependence which all authorities of the state
have.
Does this objection depend upon your religious opinions, or
upon political feeling ? — Upon both ; upon religious opinions
principally. I say, as far as I am concerned, wholly religious
opinions, because it is our duty to serve the people, and to serve
government ; I think we could do that more effectually, by being
left as much as possible to ourselves, without the interference of
government.
Do you consider there is any thing contrary to the discipline
of the Catholic church, in such an interference of the government?
— I think it would be injurious to the discipline of the Catholic
church ; and I do not know that it is recognised in a Protestant
government any where.
Supposing that by a treaty with the Pope, he was to admit of
such an interference, in your opinion would the Catholic bishops
in Ireland submit to it ? — I think they would object to it, if that
interference were to be in a material degree.
Would they think that the Pope exceeded his power, in making
such an agreement ? — Not his power certainly ; but they would
consider him as outstepping the limits of prudence and wisdom,
and discretion.
Would they feel themselves justified, in consequence of that,
in objecting to such a treaty ? — They certainly would.
Would there be any objection in your mind, to the government
naming a commission, consisting of prelates of the Roman Ca-
tholic church, through whom the loyalty and the domestic nomi-
nation and education of the several functionaries should be cer-
tified to them? — Not the least objection; we should be most
anxious to have an opportunity of certifying to government, the
426 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
loyalty of every one who is employed as a functionary of our
church.
Allowing the government to name the commission through
whom that should be certified? — Certainly.
Would it be necessary for the Catholic prelates to obtain the
Consent of the Pope, previous to their engaging their co-operation
in such an arrangement as to domestic nomination? — No, it
would not; because the Pope has already signified his readiness
to acquiesce in it.
When did the Pope signify his readiness to acquiesce in it ? —
About ten years ago.
Supposing the Pope was to agree to any thing, which in the
opinion of the Catholic prelates in Ireland exceeded his authority,
what would be the conduct of the Catholic prelates, in such a
case? — If we thought he exceeded his authority, we would of
course deem ourselves at liberty not to acquiesce in his decisions.
Is the authority of the Pope defined in such a manner, that it
would be easy for the Catholic prelates to decide, whether he
exceeded his authority or not? — I think it would.
Would there be any objection on the part of the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy, to submit their bulls and briefs, and other docu-
ments from the Pope, to the inspection of government, before
they were transmitted to the authorities to which they were
directed ? — If we look at the substance of those communications, I
do not find there would be any great difficulty ; but I would find
a great difficulty in submitting the private communication of any
gentleman to another, without his consent ; I think it would not
be authorized.
Are those private communications the subject of briefs or
rescripts from the Pope ? — Every brief or rescript is of course a
private communication, a communication from one gentleman
to another ; and I would not think myself authorized to show
any gentleman's letter to another, without his consent.
Supposing the Pope consented to such an arrangement, should
you see any objection to it then ? — Not the least.
Your objection is rather on. the principle of good manners,
than of any religious feeling? — The communications with the
Pope, are wholly of a spiritual nature ; there are some confidential
communications regarding the consciences of individuals, and it
would not perhaps be right, that those communications should
pass into other hands than those immediately concerned.
You would make an objection to submit those spiritual com-
munications to any lay tribunal ? — Yes.
Or perhaps to any tribunal that was not of your own per-
suasion ?— Certainly.
Could there be any objection to submitting this communication
DR, MURRAY EXAMINED. 427
to a commission of your own bishops, to be named by the Crown,
in the manner before-mentioned ? — I do not see that there could
be any objection to it, provided the Pope consented that his com-
munications should be so submitted; and I think, even with respect
to the objection founded on the rights of individuals, it might be
done in such a way, as that the particular person should not be
marked out; A. B. or C. D. would be a sufficient mark to dis-
tinguish the individual for whom the matter was intended, with-
out communicating his name.
Would the prelates of your church object, that the spiritual
communications that are made from the Pope to these countries,
should, in the first instance, pass through the hands of that com-
mission of your own prelates, and that they should exercise their
discretion upon them ? — I think there might be instances where
one might feel an objection to allow a communication on a con-
fessional case, to go into any other hands than those of the parties
concerned ; at the same time, I think it might be so regulated,
as to conceal the name of the person by letters, or something of
that sort.
Does not that restriction exist in Protestant kingdoms, for in-
stance, in the kingdom of Prussia, and in the kingdom of the
Netherlands ? — It does, and in Catholic kingdoms too ; sometimes
by virtue of a concordat with the Pope himself ; then he abandons
his own right, and we cannot object to it ; if he chooses to do it,
we should most readily acquiesce in it.
You have stated, that you think there would be no objection
on the part of the Roman Catholic prelates, to preventing fo-
reigners being appointed to benefices and dignities in the Roman
Catholic church in Ireland ? — There is not the least likelihood
that such an attempt would be made ; and we should be glad
that a law were enacted, to prevent the introduction of such per-
sons ; it is merely a case that we contemplate as barely possible.
Could a law of that kind be passed, without an agreement with
the Pope, before-hand ? — Certainly ; the law can exclude any one
whom it considers dangerous to the country; as it excludes
aliens, it could exclude those foreign persons from exercising any
function within this realm ; and such a law would excite no kind
of feeling of dissatisfaction in the Catholic population.
What would be the situation of the country, if such a law were
passed, and the Pope were to institute such a person ? — He never
would institute such a person ; he would not be so unwise as to
enter into collision with the law of the country.
Is the present Pope bound by the opinions of the last ? — He
considers himself bound by the decisions of the last.
Is the willingness which the late Pope expressed to come into
an arrangement for domestic nomination such a decision as you
have mentioned ? — It is such a decision as I have mentioned.
428 DR. MURRAY EXA1
Such a decision as would make you feel yourself authorized in
assenting to an arrangement of that kind ? — Certainly a decision
binding in honour, not having been recalled, he is bound by it in
the same way as a subsequent government in this country, would
be bound by the acts of the preceding government.
Are you aware whether the Catholic prelates in Ireland con-
sider themselves sufficiently authorized by that decision, to co-
operate in an arrangement of that sort, without further application
to the Holy See ?— They do.
Do you remember the rescript of a person called Quarantotti ?
— Perfectly well.
Did not the Roman Catholic prelates protest against that
rescript ? — Very earnestly ^
On what ground ? — On the ground that it allowed a certain
interference in the appointment of the Catholic bishops in Ireland,
which interference they thought would be injurious to the Ca-
tholic religion.
That rescript acknowledged the principle of a royal veto ? —
It did.
It went no further? — And also the principle of inspecting
correspondence.
What they objected to was giving the Crown a veto ? — Yes.
Did they consider that as coming from the Pope himself, or
only from Quarantotti ? — Only from Quarantotti, and a very
limited council, which was left under the dominion of the French
authorities in Rome. He was a very weak old man, and he had
himself incurred the displeasure of the Pope during his captivity,
by having taken an oath of allegiance to the French authorities,
always guarding, however, as he thought, his allegiance to the
Pope. However, it was still such as to incur the displeasure of
the Pope, and the latter would not for some time admit him into
his presence.
Had that rescript come from Pius the Seventh himself, would
the Roman Catholic prelates have equally protested against it ? —
Most certainly.
Would they have protested against it on the ground that the
Pope had exceeded his power ? — On the ground that he had ex-
ceeded the limits of prudence and discretion, that he was not
sufficiently acquainted with the circumstances of oar country;
and of course that we could not conscientiously help submitting
this fact, and reminding him of the danger to which he exposed
our religion.
Would you have protested against it, on the ground that he
had exceeded the power vested in him, as the successor of
St. Peter?— No.
They would not protest against it, on the principle that he had
done any thing contrary to the discipline of the church; but,
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
429
considering the situation of the Catholic church in Ireland, what
he had done was opposed to the interest of the church ? — That it
was contrary to our discipline.
Not contrary to the fundamental principles of the Catholic
church ? — You may say there is no fundamental discipline of that
kind, because that discipline may be changed.
Are you aware whether there has or not been any arrangement
made in other countries, in which Protestant sovereigns have
exercised a power equal or similar to that which it was proposed
by that rescript to convey to the King of England ? — I am not
aware that there are any such powers in the hands of any Pro-
testant sovereign.
Is there a power of nomination vested in any Protestant sove-
reign ? — There is no power of nomination recognised in any Pro-
testant sovereign.
Are you aware how it stands in the kingdom of Prussia ? — •
I am.
Will you have the goodness to state that ? — At present, in
virtue of a concordat which was established a very few years ago,
the nomination is vested in the Catholic chapters of Prussia ; and
the king of Prussia has given an endowment or establishment to
the clergy.
Is there no right of interference ? — No right of interference,
that I am aware of; I have seen the decree.
He has no privilege of a veto ? — None, that I am aware of.
Has the emperor of Russia any such right ? — He has not ; but
the emperor of Russia being the head of a despotic government,
recommends a certain individual to the Pope ; and the Pope, that
the Catholics of that country may not be persecuted, if he finds
no canoncial objection to the individual, appoints that individual
of his own authority, without any reference whatever to the
recommendation of the emperor ; he studiously avoids saying that
such a person had ever been presented ; in the fulness 01 his own
authority he appoints him ; but he is pleased to appoint the per-
son so presented, if he feels no objection to him. It was the
same in the kingdom of Prussia, before the concordat which I
have just mentioned. The king of Prussia named a certain indi-
vidual; the character and qualities of that individual were ex-
amined into; if the Pope saw no difficulty, he appointed him ;
but he made the nomination in the fulness of his own power,
without any reference to the presentation.
In those cases it is a species of compromise between the court
of Rome and the courts of Prussia and of Russia ? — Just so ; the
Pope does not wish to enter into collision with those sovereigns,
and he therefore allows it to go on in that way.
460 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
Has the King of Prussia any thing resembling a conge
in the appointment tg the chapters ? — Not that I am aware of.
Do you think it would be injurious to the Catholic church, if
hehaaone? — It would be perhaps less injurious than in some
other countries, because Silesia, the country chiefly in question,
is principally Catholic, and not distracted by party feeling ; that
is quite a matter of prudence, to be regulated according to the
circumstances of the place.
Supposing what is called Catholic Emancipation were passed,
and that a provision were made for the Roman Catholic clergy ;
and that, in consequence of that provision, the Pope was to grant
to the King of England the power of appointing the bishops of
the Roman Catholic church, would the Roman Catholic prelates
consent to that ? — I do not think they would ; and I am quite
certain that the Pope would not grant, to any Protestant sove-
reign whatever, a power of direct nomination.
Are you aware that the King of Prussia has actually appointed
to the Bishoprics of Culm and Posen ? — I am quite aware that
his recommendation has been attended to, but on the principle I
have just mentioned, disaMowing the right of the King of Prussia
to nominate; but still the individual recommended, has been in
general named by the Pope from his own authority, without
alluding, in the bull of appointment, to the presentation that was
made: that system has been changed, the nomination is now
vested in the chapters.
But suppose the Pope did make such a concession to the king
of this empire, what would be the conduct of the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ireland, under such circumstances ? — I cannot say what
would be their conduct, but I think it would excite a very
painful sensation, and might lead to very disastrous conse-
quences ; but I think it is almost an impossible case. It has
never occurred that such concordat has been entered into by the
Pope with any Protestant prince.
Does it enter into your mind, as a part of Catholic Eman-
cipation, that the Roman Catholic bishops should take their seats
in the House of Lords ? — By no means ; the bishops of the
Established church take their seats in the House of Lords, as
barons, which dignity they have from the Crown ; we can have
no claim to such a dignity.
Have you any reason to think, that in the minds of any part of
the Roman Catholic clergy, there exists any hope or any wish to
interfere with the temporal possessions of the Established church ?
—Not the least ; there is no wish, on the part of the Roman
Catholic clergy, to disturb the present establishment, or to par-
take of any part of the wealth that it enjoys.
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 431
Nor any objection to give the most full and entire assurance on
that subject, by any declaration that may be required of them ? —
Not the least.
Do not you think, that if there was an establishment for the
Roman Catholic clergy provided by the State, that would afford
an argument to those who object, that they being Catholics,
should pay for the Protestant clergy, as Protestants might then
say, We who are Protestants, pay for the Catholic clergy ? — I
think that would be a very powerful argument.
Though the Catholic clergy of Ireland might not wish to in-
terfere with the property of the Protestant church, is it not a
general feeling among the Catholics, and general indeed amongst
a great many of the Protestant communion also, that the esta-
blishment of the church of Ireland should be very much cur-
tailed ; that there should be a new modelling of it ? — It is a
general feeling, among Catholics as well as Protestants, that the
establishment is unnecessarily rich ; but I do not observe any
feeling in Catholics as Catholics, to exert themselves for its cur-
tailment, more than Protestants.
That feeling is rather an opinion of political economy, than a
religiQus feeling ? — Exactly so ; as religionists they have no par-
ticular feeling.
Is it not their disposition to leave the matter entirely with the
legislature ? — Yes.
Do not the Catholics complain very much of the obligation
of paying tithes to Protestant clergymen ? — They complain in
common with Protestants, and they have this additional ground
of complaint, that they receive no service for it.
Is not that urged as a very strong and very general argument,
against the establishment and continuance of tithes in Ireland ? —
It is a complaint, that they have to pay two churches, from one
of which they derive no return. According to an idea thrown
out, in a question which has been put to me, it would seem, that
in the event of emancipation, they would not have to pay from
their own pockets exclusively, their own clergy, and of course
then there would be a greater disposition to bear with patience
the burden of supporting the Protestant clergy.
Have not the disturbances on the subject of tithes in Ireland,
which have been very numerous indeed, and existing from a very
remote period, prevailed more generally in Catholic countries,
than in those counties where Protestants were more numerous ? —
I believe they have, but I do not feel myself very competent to
answer the question, for I am not sufficiently acquainted with the
nature of those disturbances, or the causes from which they arose.
As far as you are acquainted with them, do you not believe
that the disturbances with respect to tithes, have chiefly taken
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
place in those parts of Ireland where the tithe of potatoes was
collected? — I understand so. I am not myself particularly
acquainted with any part of Ireland where those disturbances
nave taken place.
Is not the tithe upon potatoes the greatest cause of dissatis-
faction connected with the tithe system? — So I have heard;
because that is a tithe levied oft* the poorest classes of the com-
munity.
Then in the event of disturbances with respect to tithe, having
taken place in particular counties in Ireland, do you connect those
disturbances with the circumstance of the inhabitants of those
counties being Catholics, or with the circumstance that in those
counties, the tithe of potatoes was claimed? — I think it more
likely that they arose from the nature of the tithe, and from the
manner of collecting it.
Have not you found, or have not you collected from your
observation, that the insurrections in different parts of the south
and west of Ireland, have been directed, as much against the
payment of dues to the Roman Catholic clergy, as against the
payment of tithe to the Protestant ? — They have often been so
directed against the dues paid to the Catholic clergy, as well as
against the tithes paid to the Protestant clergy.
Are there not lay impropriators in Ireland, who receive tithes
as well as the clergy ? — I understand so.
In that case, is any return made to the persons paying ? — No
return.
Do you suppose, that if the legislature chose to take away
tithe from the clergy of the Established church, and to pay them
in any other way, that they would make a present of the tithe to
the land owners ? — I do not know what the legislature might be
inclined to do under those circumstances, but I believe the people
feel as great an indisposition to pay tithe to a lay impropriator,
as to an ecclesiastic.
Are they not sensible, that it is a burden upon the property
which they hold, whether it is paid to the church or to the
laity ? — Yes.
Do not you think that the Protestant clergy find as much
difficulty in getting the tithe from Protestant parishioners, as
from Roman Catholic parishioners ? — I have heard so, and very
often more difficulty.
Why would you say, more difficulty ? — From their being more
able to resist.
You have not found, so far as your observation, or any thing
you have heard, lead you to form an opinion, that a resistance to
the payment of tithe, prevails more amongst Roman Catholic
parishioners, than amongst Protestant parishioners ? — No, I do
DR. MURRAY EXAMINED. 433
not; but it is a subject I am not acquainted with, from my
having chiefly resided in Dublin.
From what you have understood of the state of the disturbed
districts, do you not suppose that the disturbances there pro-
ceeded from the general condition of the peasantry, and from
other circumstances not connected with the profession of the
Roman Catholic faith ? — I believe, from their extreme poverty,
which made them feel the pressure of those things more than
elsewhere ; but I am not sufficiently acquainted with those parts
of the country where disturbances took place.
Do you think that what is called Catholic Emancipation would
at all reconcile the peasantry and farmers of Ireland to the pay-
ment of tithes? — I think it would diminish their repugnance
to it.
Do you think it would make them more satisfied under those
burdens, than they are at present? — I am certain it would
remove a great source of discontent, and put them of course in a
better temper, and induce them to acquiesce more readily in all
the burdens the State imposes on them.
Is not that feeling of discontent connected in some degree with
the disturbances which have taken place ? — I fancy it is.
Are you at all acquainted with the operation of the Tithe
composition Bill ? — Not at all ; I have heard that where it has
been carried into operation, the effect has been favourable ; but I
am not personally acquainted with any case in which it has been,
carried into effect.
Have you heard that it has had the effect of removing the
pressure from the small holders of land who paid the tithe of
potato, to a general burden upon all the land ? — I have heard
so, that it divides the burden more equally, and relieves the
poorer classes.
Have you formed any opinion as to the operation of the law
with respect to Church Rates in Ireland ? — I have had no oppor^
tunity of forming an opinion upon that subject.
Have you heard any complaints made by the poorer classes,
of the burden which is imposed upon them, of repairing the
churches of the Established religion ? — I have heard that there
were complaints of that nature, particularly where there were very
few Protestants, and where the chief burden was to be borne by
Roman Catholics.
Has that been the cause of disturbances in any part of the
country ? — I am not aware whether it has or not.
Upon subjects of that nature, your constant residence in
Dublin disables you from giving to the Committee that opinion
which you would otherwise be able to give, had you lived in the
countr ? — It does.
434 DR. MURRAY EXAMINED.
In the event of there existing any dissatisfaction
to the payment of church rates, that is, funds for building and
repairing Protestant churches, do you not think that that dissa-
tisfaction would cease, if those rates, in place of being charged
upon the occupying tenant, became in fact a charge upon the
landlord and upon the rent ? — I think it is likely that it would.
In case of Catholic Emancipation being carried, would you
propose that the Catholics should be allowed to have processions ?
— By no means. Public processions in the street, out of their
places of worship, I would not think at all advisable in a country
so mixed as ours is, where the different denominations are
blended together, and where, of course, one description of per-
sons might receive ground of offence, from those external cere-
monies.
You have heard that there have been great objections made
against the Church Establishment in Ireland, particularly by
Irishmen ; do you think that if a great attempt was made to new
model the Church Establishment, not to take away its riches,
but to allow them that wealth in a different way, that that at-
tempt would be supported by the great body of the Catholics in
Ireland ? — I am not aware that the great body of the Catholics
would trouble themselves much about the manner in which it
would be employed, provided that the pressure was to continue
the same, and that it was to be levied in the same way.
If there was an attempt made to relieve the peasantry of the
payment of tithes, and to appropriate the landed property of the
Church to the payment of bishops, deans, and clergy, and to the
repair of the churches, and to the encouragement of education,
and perhaps other purposes connected with church matters ; do
you think there would be a general feeling among the Catholic
population in Ireland, to join such a plan ? — I think there would
be a general feeling amongst both Catholics and Protestants, to
rejoice at any plan which would remove the people from unne-
cessary burdens, or to employ the fund in such a way as would
be of general service ; I do not think the Catholics are more par-
ticularly interested in that, than the Protestants.
Then the Committee are to understand you as saying, that it
is the burden itself that is oppressive, and not the circumstance
of the persons to whom it is paid ? — The burden.
Do you think the Catholic population would exert themselves
more strongly to get rid of tithe, than they would of the burden
of any other tax ? — I do not think they would.
In any opinions you have heard respecting this question of
Church reform, which has been pointed at in the latter part of
your examination, can you state which you have found most
eager and anxious upon the subject, the Protestants or the Ca-
Dft. KELLY EXAMINED.
tholics ? — I think the Protestants are equally anxious with the
Catholics.
Is not it your opinion, that any class of men, either Catholic
or Protestant, in any country, if they found themselves pecu-
liarly aggrieved by any particular tax, would naturally be very
glad to be relieved of that by any means the legislature of the
country could possibly provide?— Most certainly.
The Most Reverend Oliver Kelly, D.D. Titular Archbishop of
Tuam, called in ; and Examined.
How many years have you been Roman Catholic Archbishop
of Tuam ?— -Since the year 1815.
Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee, the nature
and origin of the authority of the Pope ? — The Pope derives his
authority from Jesus Christ. He is the successor of St. Peter,
and holds the same rank in the church that St. Peter did among
the Apostles ; he is the first bishop and head of the church, and
enjoys a primacy, not only of honour, but also of jurisdiction.
Is his authority distinctly defined ? — His authority is distinctly
defined ; and besides the ordinary episcopal power, which he
enjoys in common with the other bishops, he has the authority of
presiding over the universal church, and of governing it accord-
ing to the canons.
Does the obedience that is due by a Roman Catholic to the
Pope, detract from what is due by a Roman Catholic to the prince
under whom he lives ? — Not in the slightest degree.
Does it at all justify an objection that is made to Roman Ca-
tholics, that their allegiance is divided ? — By no means.
Is the duty that a Roman Catholic owes to the Pope, and the
duty he owes to the King, really and substantially distinct ? — The
duty which the Roman Catholic owes to the Pope, and that which
he owes to the King under whom he lives, are really and sub-
stantially distinct, inasmuch as they regard different matters.
The duty which he owes the Pope, is confined to matters spiri-
tual, and affecting ecclesiastical and religious matters. This
duty is by no means incompatible or inconsistent with his social
duties ; it does not clash in any manner whatsoever with the civil
allegiance which he owes to the King ; on the contrary, his
bounden duty, as a Catholic, is to pay obedience and submission
to the civil authorities.
What do the principles of the Roman Catholic religion teach,
in respect of performing civil duties ? — The principles which the
Roman Catholic church teaches, with regard to civil duties, are,
that subjects are to obey the King, and all those placed in au-
2 F 2
456 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
thority under him ; they are to be amenable to the laws of the
11
land.
Does the Pope, in point of fact, at present dispose of Temporal
affairs within the kingdoms of any of the princes of the Conti-
nent ? — -I am not aware that the Pope, at present, interferes in
any degree in the temporal concerns of the princes of the Con-
tinent.
Has any Pope of late years, at all attempted to interfere in the
temporal concerns of the States of Europe ? — I do not know that,
of late years, any Pope has attempted to interfere in the temporal
concerns of independent states.
When the Pope did interfere in the temporal concerns of inde-
pendent states, on what did he found his claim to such inter-
ference ? — I should think, when he did interfere in temporal
concerns, it was in consequence of concessions made to him by
temporal princes themselves, and that it was in virtue of the
power which he had received from them ; but I do not conceive
that the Pope, at any period, in virtue of his authority as Pope,
did inteifere in any manner whatsoever with the temporal concerns
of any state.
Was it ever admitted as a doctrine of the Roman Catholic
church, that the Pope had any temporal jurisdiction out of the
patrimony of St. Peter ? — It never was admitted as a doctrine of
the universal church, that the Pope could exercise temporal ju-
risdiction without the limits of his own territory; there may
have been some individuals who held that opinion, but it never
could be called or considered the doctrine of the Roman Catholic
church.
In point of fact, was not that doctrine resisted by the north of
Europe, whilst it was admitted by many persons in the southern
countries of Europe ? — Most undoubtedly.
And hence the difference between Transalpine and Cisalpine
principles ? — The Transalpine and Cisalpine doctrines, in respect
to the authority of the Pope, differ ; but what we call those
doctrines, are doctrines held by individual divines of one country
or the other.
Does any such difference now exist in any part of Europe,
with regard to temporal power ? — I am not aware that there is a
Catholic divine in existence at present, who holds the doctrine of
the Pope having temporal power or authority over independent
states.
Do the Roman Catholic clergy insist, that all the bulls of the
Pope are entitled to obedience ? — The Roman Catholic doctrine,
in respect to bulls from the Pope, is, that they are always to be
treated with respect ; but if those bulls or rescripts, proceeding
from the Pope, do contain doctrines or matters which are not
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 437
compatible with the discipline of the particular churches to which
they may be directed, they feel it their duty then to remonstrate
respectfully, and not to receive the regulations that may be con-
tained in the bull or rescript which may emanate from the Pope.
Do Roman Catholics pray to Saints ? — Roman Catholics be-
lieve that the blessed saints in heaven, replenished with charity,
pray for us their fellow members here on earth. Roman Catholics
believe, that the saints, seeing God, they see and know in him all
things suitable to their happy state ; that God may be inclined to
hear requests made in our behalf by them, and to grant us many
favours through their intercession. This manner of invocation
is no more injurious to Christ, our Mediator, than it is for one
Christian to beg the prayers of another in this world, as Saint
Paul did.
When Roman Catholics are said to pray to the Virgin Mary,
what is the meaning of that expression ? — When they invoke the
Virgin Mary, they do not consider that she can grant favours of
herself, but that she may, through her powerful intercession,
obtain favours from God for us.
Do Roman Catholics pay veneration to Images and Relics ? — •
Roman Catholics allow a certain veneration, or honour, to be
given to relics, and to the images of Christ, and his saints who
have departed this life in the odour of sanctity ; and they consider
images useful, inasmuch as they may occasionally remind them of
certain subjects and points of doctrine and religion, which may
be most conducive to their spiritual welfare ; but they renounce
all adoration and divine worship of images and pictures. The
Almighty alone they worship and adore, and pictures are used to
excite pur thoughts to heavenly things.
Do the Roman Catholics consider those images or relics as
possessing sense or intelligence ? — Not the least sense or intelli-
gence ; and the honour or respect given to pictures and images,
or relics of those pious persons who lived here on earth, has re-
ference only to the character represented.
They consider, that they may be useful in reminding them of
circumstances connected with religious duties ? — Exactly so.
Beyond that, they attach no importance to them ? — None.
It is stated in a publication called A Protestant Catechism,
showing the principal errors of the church of Rome, that " Ro-
man Catholics pray to angels and saints, to intercede for them,
arid save them by their merits ;" is that a correct statement ? —
Not by any means; saints or angels cannot save us by their
merits, except so far as they may be available in their intercession
with the Divine Mediator.
Do they invoke angels or saints, with the same spirit with
which they invoke the interference of our Saviour ? — Not by any
BR. KELLY EXAMINED.
means; they address the Saviour as their Mediator, as their
Lord, and as their God ; and they address the saints as the ser-
vants or creatures of God, who have died in favour with Him.
They can give them nothing of themselves, they only intercede
with God for them.
Would the Roman Catholics conceive, that any other mode of
prayer to the saints, would be admitting another Mediator be-
tween God and man, than the Redeemer ? — If they were to pray
in any other manner to them, than for intercession, I should con-
sider it an error, and that they would be asking of them what
they had not the power to give.
Would not praying to them to save them by their merits, be,
in point of fact, admitting another Mediator between God and
man, besides Jesus Christ ? — It would, if they thought the saints
could save them by their own merits, without the mediation of
Jesus Christ.
There is in this same book, a question, " What do you think
of the frequent crossings, upon which the Papists lay so great a
stress in their divine offices, and for security against sickness and
ill accidents ;" the answer is, " They are vain and superstitious.
The worship of the crucifix or figure of Christ upon the cross,
is idolatrous ; and the adoring and praying to the cross itself, is
of all corruptions of the Popish worship, the most gross and in-
tolerable." Is it in point of fact, a part of the Roman Catholic
practice, to worship the crucifix, or adore or pray to the cross ? —
Roman Catholics renounce all divine worship, or adoration of the
cross ; they use it as a memorial of the passion and death of our
Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it reminds them of his sufferings
and death for us ; but the crucifix, or the cross, has no intrinsic
virtue or efficacy in it, more than any other inanimate substance;
it is merely a memento to impress upon our minds, the mediation
of Jesus Christ, and that it is through him alone, that we can
expect salvation.
Is the respect and regard which the Roman Catholics bear to
such image or crucifix, of the same nature as that which any
other person might bear to a picture of a dear and absent friend ?
— Yes ; respectively so.
Is there any worship in your church, of images, or of idols, or
of relics ? — There is no divine worship of images, of idols, or of
relics, in our church ; I have already stated the relative respect
we entertain for certain images and relics.
Then do not you conceive, according to your judgment, that
the charge of idolatry which is brought against your church, is
an unfounded charge? — I consider it as most unfounded, inas-
much as we do not have recourse to those images, for any other
purpose than what I have already mentioned ; they are books for
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 439
the illiterate; by looking at the crucifix, they are reminded of the
death and passion of our Lord; further than that is not expected
or desired.
In this same catechism, there is upon the subject of Penance, a
statement, that the sinner is allowed to get another person to do
penance for him, and besides, the Pope grants indulgences,
whereby he remits all penances, not only of sin past, but some-
times such as shall be committed for a great number of years to
come, or during a man's whole life; and these indulgences,
which cannot but be considered as licenses for sin, are publicly
sold for money ; what would you wish to observe upon that
statement ? — The doctrine of Indulgences in the Catholic church,
does not by any means imply the idea, that sin can be remitted
by indulgences ; sin, according to the doctrine of the Roman
Catholic church, can never be forgiven, without a sincere and
hearty sorrow, accompanied with a firm purpose and resolution of
amending life ; and when the sinner so disposed, avails himself of
the sacrament of penance, his sins are forgiven by sacramental
absolution ; but indulgence in the Roman Catholic church, never
meant the forgiveness of sin, or of the pain eternal due to it.
Indulgence means the remission or relaxation of the temporal pu-
nishment due to sin, after the eternal guilt and punishment had
been previously remitted.
Is there any instance of an indulgence being granted, for sins to
be committed at a future period ? — There can be no indulgence
for sins to be committed at a future period ; and there is no au-
thority in the Catholic church, and there never did exist an
authority in the Catholic church, which assumed to itself the
power of giving leave or indulgence to commit sin at a future
period.
Are indulgences ever sold for money ? — I have never known
an indulgence to be sold for money ; I have read in books, that
have been written against the Catholic religion, that it was the
practice in the Catholic church, to sell indulgences ; but this is a
misrepresentation and a mis-statement of the doctrine of the Ca-
tholic church ; in some instances, there may have been a commu-
tation of temporal penances, and pious pecuniary contributions
may have been substituted in lieu of some other atonement. But
if mistakes and abuses have been committed, in granting indul-
gences, through the ignorance of particular persons, such abuses
cannot be reasonably charged on the church, as it rejects and
condemns those practices.
Can that commutation be obtained in the present age ? — I am
not aware how far it may be practised at present.
Is the sinner allowed to get another person to do penance for
440
DK. KELLY EXAMINED.
him? — In the Catholic church, every sinner is required
penance for himself.
Is there any instance in which he can be allowed to get another
person to do penance for him ? — He is at liberty to avail himself
of the prayers, and the good works of others, iii his behalf.
^ Could that in any instance, excuse him from doing penance
himself? — By no means.
In the doctrine of penance in the Roman Catholic church, is
there not included, besides the outward acts of penance, a contrite
disposition of mind, and a resolute determination to avoid sin in
future ? — In the Catholic church, we set no value upon the ex-
ternal act of penance, unless it be accompanied by repentance ;
unless in fact, it be accompanied by sorrow and contrition for
sin, with a firm resolution not to relapse into it.
Therefore to the doctrine of repentance, as distinguished from
penance, there is superadded the outward mark, which the Ca-
tholic church has connected with that change of mind? — Ex-
actly.
What are the usual external marks of penance which are
imposed, for example, in your diocese? — They are various;
fasting, prayer, alms deeds, and other good works.
Are pilgrimages imposed as penance, pilgrimages to holy places,
and the observance of duties at those places ? — In some instances,
pilgrimages may be imposed as penances ; it is not a general
practice.
Are those pilgrimages, which the Catholic peasantry in Ireland
are accustomed to fulfil, voluntary on their part, or commanded
by some authority of their church ? — The pilgrimages they per-
form in Ireland, generally speaking, are voluntary. I have for-
bidden performance at wells, not that I consider it evil in itself;
but in consequence of the abuses, which I have known to arise
from those performances, I have thought it prudent to endeavour
to put a stop to them, and have in some degree succeeded.
You say the church has the power of removing the temporal
punishment of sin ; by that you mean the penance enjoined ? —
Yes.
Is that temporal punishment remitted by virtue of the indul-
gence, or is it remitted by the Catholic clergy ; after the indul-
gence being given, is the indulgence a qualification to receive the
remission, or does the indulgence itself remit the temporal punish-
ment ? — The indulgence consists in the remission of the temporal
punishment, that may remain due after the eternal guilt be re-
mitted ; this indulgence cannot be gained, unless the sin is pre-
viously forgiven ; and after the sin and the eternal punishment
due to the sin are forgiven, then the indulgence remits the temporal
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 441
punishment, or a portion of temporal punishment, that is due after
the sin is forgiven.
In Ireland, how are those indulgences now granted, by what
authorities, and in what manner ? — The indulgences in Ireland
are granted by the Pope generally.
Directly, or passing through the medium of the ecclesiastical
authorities in Ireland ? — Passing through the medium of the ec-
clesiastical authorities ; they are sent to the ecclesiastical autho-
rities, and they announce them to the faithful, who are at liberty
to avail themselves of them.
Are they generally or individually granted ? — Generally.
Are they granted generally to the Catholic communicants in a
particular diocese, or to individual communicants forming part of
that body ? — There are some indulgences granted for the entire
kingdom ; there are other indulgences granted to particular dio-
ceses.
Are they in those particular dioceses granted generally, or to
individuals, at the pleasure of the bishop or metropolitan ? — There
are certain conditions generally required in order to obtain the
benefit of an indulgence ; one of the conditions is, to approach
the sacraments with proper dispositions, as inward sorrow, de-
testation of sin, and a firm purpose and resolution of amendment:
when those conditions are complied with, on the part of the peni-
tent, then the indulgence extends to him.
It is stated in this same catechism, that Roman Catholics hold
that faith is not to be kept with heretics, and that the Pope can
absolve subjects from their oath of allegiance to their sovereign :
is there the slightest truth in those two accusations, or the most
remote ground for them ? — Not the slightest truth ; as a minister
of the Catholic church, I feel it my duty to declare, that I have
always considered it imperative on me to impress on the minds of
those who are under my spiritual care, that they are bound to
keep faith with heretics, and all those differing from them in re-
ligion, as strictly and as rigidly as they would towards persons of
their own communion. With respect to the allegiance that is due
to the sovereign, the Pope has no right of interference whatsoever ;
we recognise no power in the sovereign pontiff, or in any other au-
thority, to absolve us from the allegiance which we owe to our king.
By heretics, are all persons understood who are not of the
Roman Catholic communion ? — I should conceive there are many
who are not within the communion of the Roman Catholic church,
who yet are not heretics.
Are the individuals belonging to the Greek church considered
as heretics, by the Roman Catholic church ? — No, not at all.
They are considered as schismatics ? — As schismatics ; accord-
ing to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, to constitute a
442 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
heretic, contumacy in error with respect to matters of faith is ne-
cessary; and where there is not a contumacious adherence to
error in matters of faith, there is no heresy.
Would not that character of heresy apply then to all churches
which have separated from the see of Rome, and continued to
deny its authority? — No; I do conceive that there are many,
who are not of the Roman Catholic communion, whom, when it
is their conscientious belief that they are not denying any thing
which is essential to salvation, and that they have no means of
having their error removed, I do not by any means consider as
heretics, though they may not belong to the visible body of the
Roman Catholic church.
Is it in the power of the Pope to grant a dispensation from ob-
serving an oath ? — The Pope can grant no dispensation from ob-
serving a lawful oath.
Although the Catholic church would regard many of the mem-
bers of the Protestant establishment as heretics, it does not neces-
sarily regard them all as heretics, on account of their differing
from the Roman Catholic church ? — Not by any means.
All members of the Church of England believe in the same ar-
ticles of faith, then how do you draw a distinction between those
whom you say you would call heretics belonging to the Church of
England, and those whom you say you would not call heretics be-
longing to the same church ? — I have already mentioned that, in
order to constitute a heretic, contumacy in error concerning mat-
ters of faith, is necessary ; I think there are many who are invin-
cibly ignorant of those articles of faith which we hold to be es-
sential, and their being unacquainted with them, and having no
opportunity of removing the error under which they labour, is a
sufficient ground for not considering them as heretics.
Do you mean by your past evidence to state, that you conceive
that all members of the Church of England believe the same doc-
trine, or that there is not a considerable difference of opinion
among members of the Church of England ? — I do not pretend
to say, that all members of the Established Church hold the same
articles of faith.
Will you be good enough to explain to the Committee, what
you mean by the word Contumacy ? — A refusal on the part of an
individual to embrace doctrines necessary to salvation, after
having had a sufficient opportunity of being convinced of their
truth.
If a person was not conscientiously convinced of the necessity
of believing such doctrine, would you consider him contumacious?
— If his ignorance was voluntary, I should consider him contu-
macious ; if his ignorance was involuntary and invincible, I should
consider him free from the guilt of contumacy.
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 44$
Then, under that interpretation, would you consider all the
divines of the Established church and of the Presbyterian church,
and, in short, of every denomination of Christians differing from
the Roman Catholic church, as contumacious?— If the errors which
they held, were involuntary and invincible on their part, I should
not consider them so.
But if what are called errors, arise from a conviction in. the mind
of the person who holds them, of their not being errors, and are
thereby involuntary on his part, would you then consider them
contumacious ? — When he has had sufficient opportunities of being-
instructed and enlightened, and he still continues to hold what I
consider erroneous doctrine, I do no longer consider his error in-
voluntary, I consider it voluntary, and then, of course, comes the
guilt of contumacy.
Then, in short, every person who has had education, and has
turned his attention to these matters, who has received the general
instruction that people do upon a religious education, is, in your
interpretation of the word, a heretic, if he does not agree with the
principles of the Catholic religion? — I could not undertake to
pronounce sentence upon any individual, the individual is the best
judge whether he has used the necessary diligence, in order to
remove his error ; all I assert, generally, is, that those who, after
having had a full opportunity of acquiring a knowledge of the
truths which I consider necessary to salvation, and of having their
error removed, if they still persist, I do consider such error on
their part to be voluntary, and that they therefore become con-
tumacious ; but who the individuals are that are so circumstanced,
is what I do not take upon myself to determine.
You of course believe that your own church is the true church ;
it is the nature of every church, that the conscientious professors
of it believe that their own profession is the true one ? — Yes ; I
do believe the Roman Catholic church to be the true one.
Then with respect to a person who differs from your church, if
in your opinion it is merely error, on his part, and that he honestly
and conscientiously differs from your church ; and after he has
endeavoured to inform himself, still continues in error, you do not
count that person a heretic ? — I do not count a person a heretic,
whose error is involuntary and invincible.
What is the distinction you take between Schism and Heresy ;
is it that the one is voluntary, and the other involuntary ? — No.
Schism and Heresy are different things ; schism refers to the go-
vernment and discipline of the church, and heresy to its doctrines.
Whether a person differs in a voluntary manner, or an invo-
luntary manner, still you consider that Catholics are bound to
keep faith with him, as well as with one of their own communion?
• — Just as much as with persons of their own communion.
444 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
And all other moral ties that subsist between man and man,
subsist equally between a Catholic and a heretic, and between a
Catholic and one of his own communion ? — Exactly the same ; it
makes not the smallest difference. All moral ties, all contracts,
and all engagements, we are bound to fulfil towards those who
differ from us in religion, as well as towards those who are of the
same persuasion.
Then, if the Committee understand your evidence right, it is
perfectly consistent with the general belief in the mind of a Roman
Catholic, that a church which differs from his own in important
matters of faith, may be heretical ; that yet that Roman Catholic
may not be disposed to visit with the severity of that opinion, in-
dividuals belonging to that church ? — Exactly.
Do not you think it almost impossible, for one human being to
look so into the heart of another, as to determine positively, whe-
ther he is in a state of involuntary ignorance, or of obstinate re-
fusal to the truth ? — I would not undertake to do it.
Do not you think, under those circumstances, that persons who
differ from one another in religion, are bound to the observance
of mutual duties as to each other, and to put a kind interpretation
upon their motives and conduct? — They are strictly bound to
love each other, and to discharge the duties of society and of
Christian charity towards each other, just the same as if they
agreed upon every point of religious belief.
Is it your opinion, that the general question of Catholic Eman-
cipation excites a considerable degree of interest among the lower
orders of Catholics, in the part of Ireland with which you are
particularly acquainted ? — In the part of Ireland with which I
am particularly acquainted, it is my opinion that the question of
Catholic Emancipation, engages the thoughts and the attention
of all ranks of Catholics considerably.
Though in the case of Catholic Emancipation being granted,
no particular or immediate benefits might be considered to be
granted to the lower orders of Catholics, is it not your opinion,
that they would look upon it as a boon to the Catholic population
at large, removing from the higher ranks of their religion, the
mark of infamy and degradation which is now affixed to them? — I
am perfectly satisfied that they would receive it as a boon, and
that they would feel the utmost gratitude for it ; and that it
would tend most materially towards tranquillizing their minds,
and leaving them more at ease than they can feel at present.
Do not you think it would have a soothing effect upon the lower
orders of Catholics ? — It would have the most soothing effect.
Do not you think the payment of the Catholic clergy by the
State, would have a yet more soothing effect upon the lower orders
in Ireland ? — I am not aware that the payment of the Roman,
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 445
Catholic clergy by the State, would by any means be considered
a boon by the lower orders.
Do not the lower orders of Roman Catholics in Ireland, feel an
objection at times to paying the dues that the Roman Catholic
priests receive from them ? — In some instances, I have no doubt
that they may feel some reluctance. \
Would not relieving them from the payment of those dues, be
considered by them as a boon ? — They would prefer paying their
clergy as they do at present, to seeing them become the stipendia-
ries of government.
Do you mean to say, that they would prefer continuing to pay
their clergy as they do at present, rather than to see them become
the stipendiaries of government, if the grant of those stipends was
accompanied by what is called Catholic Emancipation ; or do you
mean to confine your answer to the consideration of that grant,
separate from Catholic Emancipation ? — My answer referred to
our present state; whilst the Roman Catholic laity remain ex-
cluded from the benefits of the constitution, I do conceive that
they would feel much hurt at seeing their clergy become the sti-
pendiaries of government.
You do not believe that the same jealousy would be felt by the
Catholic population, if the two measures, a provision for the
clergy and the removal of political disabilities, on account of re-
ligious persuasion, were made concurrent measures ? — I am not
aware exactly what effect it might then produce ; perhaps it would
be then considered a kindness, provided the Roman Catholic
clergy were allowed the free exercise of their functions, and there
were no influence or authority, direct or indirect, exercised over
them in the discharge of their duties.
Will you have the kindness to explain to the Committee, what
interference with the discharge or exercise of their functions could
be suspected, by their receiving a provision from the State, in lieu
of their present mode of payment ? — If, for example, the appoint-
ment of Catholic ministers were to be vested in those who differed
from them in religion, they would conceive that in that case per-
sons might be appointed as clergymen of their communion, whose
selection might be influenced by motives distinct from the consi-
deration of their fitness for the discharge of their duties.
Then the objection would be, not to the clergy receiving a pro-
vision from the State, in lieu of their present payment, but to al-
lowing an interference in the appointment of their bishops or other
clergy ? — -I should think principally so.
Then the doubts which you felt, with regard to the question
how far a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy would be ac-
ceptable to the Catholics of Ireland, referred altogether to the in-
dependence of the Catholic church in the question of appointments,
446 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
and their protection from what might be considered an undue in-
terference on the part of the Crown ? — It is in that sense particu-
larly I understand it at this moment.
Then, in the event of a payment for the Roman Catholic clergy
being connected with arrangements that would secure the inde-
pendence of the Catholic clergy, as well as being connected with
Emancipation itself, have you any doubt that that measure would
be acceptable to the Catholics of Ireland? — I really have not
turned my thoughts to that question exactly, as it is now put ; I
do believe that some of the people would have no objection, in
that event, to a provision being made for them.
You have stated, you are not aware what the feelings of the
Catholic population might altogether be ; would there be any ob-
jection do you believe, on the part of the prelates and clergy, to
receiving such a provision, provided, as was stated in a former
question, the grant of it was accompanied by the concession of
political privileges to the laity, and the security of the indepen-
dence of the Catholic church ? — I cannot exactly answer what the
feelings of our prelates and clergy might be on the occasion ; I
would not undertake to say.
Should you, yourself, as one of the prelates of that church,
have any objection to such a provision being made ? — As one of
the prelates of the church, I will candidly confess, I should prefer
remaining as I now am.
Would you have any objection to state to the Committee gene-
rally, what the value or amount of revenue received by the bishop
and clergy of your diocese, may be? — I can safely answer, I
should think, although I have never made an exact calculation,
my receipts, within any one year, never amounted to 700/. ; and
I do not suppose, that in general, they ever much exceed 500/.
With respect to the clergy of your diocese, what is the average
income of a parish priest ? — There may be three or four parishes
in the arch-diocese of Tuam, where the receipts of the priests
amount to perhaps about from 250/. to 300/. per annum,
Do those parishes include the towns ?. — They include the
towns.
The parish of Tuam is your own parish ? — It is.
From what other sources, besides the parish of Tuam, is your
revenue derived ? — Each parish priest gives a guinea or two in
the year, and for each marriage that is performed in the parish,
there is a certain portion of that money given to the support of
the bishop ; those are the sources of his emolument as bishop.
Have you more than one parish ? — I have the charge of West-
port parish at present.
Is it the custom of the Catholic church to have unions of pa-
rishes, in the same manner as in the Established church? — It
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 447
sometimes happens. On my appointment to the see of Tuam I
found the revenues of it inadequate to the objects I had in view.
I wished to establish an episcopal seminary, and to establish
schools for the education of the poor ; and I wished, besides that,
to have it in my power to give occasional assistance towards the
erection or repair of Roman Catholic chapels throughout my
diocese : and finding that the revenues of the diocese were inade-
quate to those objects, I made application to be ah1 owed to hold
another parish along with the parish of Tuam, in order that by
receiving some emolument therefrom, I might be able to fulfil
those objects I have alluded to.
How do you administer the parish of Westport? — By cu-
rates.
May the Committee ask, what is the value of that parish ?— -
I should think about 300£. a year.
Is the union of parishes in themselves, separated by great dis-
tance, usual in the case of Catholic archbishops or bishops, with
a view of augmenting their income, or supplying the inadequacy
of their income ? — The principal object I had in view, in obtain-
ing a second parish, the parish of Westport, was what I have
stated. I had other objects besides ; I did apprehend, that per-
haps if I were to send another priest to the place, he would not be
very kindly received by certain individuals there, and I thought
that an unpleasant difference would be avoided by taking the pa-
rish in charge myself.
When you state the average ^income to be from 500/. to 700£.
a year, of the parish of Tuam, and of your office of bishop, do
you mean to include the produce of the parish of Westport also,
or is that an addition to the average income ? — Althougn I have
held the parish of Westport now for nearly three years, I can
declare safely, that I have not received 100/. out of it during
the whole time I have held it. The poverty of the people was
such, that I gave directions to the curates there, in consequence
of the severe pressure of the times, and the distresses of the
people in that town and parish, not to be very urgent in the col-
lection of the dues, for which reason I have received very little
emolument out of it.
Is there the same union of the bishopric of Ardagh with the
archdiocese of Tuam in the Catholic, as there is in the Protestant
church ? — No.
Do you hold any bishopric united with the archdiocese of
Tuam ? — ]N one.
Did you mean, by stating that you would rather things re-
mained as they are, with respect to any project of a stipendiary
provision for the clergy, to carry your objection to that stipen-
diary provision so far as to say, that you would regret it should
DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
be carried into effect, provided it facilitated the great question of
Catholic Emancipation? — I should be very sorry to raise the
slightest difficulty in the way of Catholic Emancipation ; and I
would make great sacrifices of my personal feelings as to the
mode of provision, were such sacrifices essential to the attain-
ment of that object, inasmuch as I consider it a paramount con-
sideration.
Mercurii, 23° die Martii, 1825.
SIR HENRY PARNELL, BARONET,
IN THE CHAIR.
The Most Reverend Oliver Kelly, D.D., Titular Archbishop of
Tuam, again called in ; and further Examined.
HAVE you been able to observe any increase in the popula
tion of the district with which you are acquainted ? — For the
last twenty-four years that I have been in Ireland, I have ob-
served a very considerable increase in the population of the part
of the country where I have been residing.
Have you been able to discover any distinction in the ratio
of increase in those districts where the situation of the people
is improved, as compai-ed with the increase of the population
where the people are in a great state of misery ? — I think I
have. About the year 1806 I was appointed to a parish in the
county of Mayo, along the sea coast, between the towns of
Westport arid Newport, and I found that the people who in-
habited that district were extremely comfortable ; they were
more industrious than the generality of the people in other
parts of the country ; they were weavers ; they had taken spots
of ground along the sea-coast, and they employed themselves
occasionally at the linen business, at other times in tilling their
little farms, and where an opportunity offered, in fishing : by
those means they became much more comfortable than the pea-
santry in other parts of the country, and the increase of the
population was not so rapid.
Have you been able to compare the number of marriages
which took place in a district like that which you have de-
scribed, with the number of marriages that took place in the
more agricultural and less prosperous districts ? — Yes, I think
I have ; I did observe, that in those prosperous districts the
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 449
marriages were not so frequent as I found them in more im-
poverished districts.
In those more prosperous districts you found that there was
an indisposition, on the part of the people, to contract improvi-
dent marriages ? — I found that there was an indisposition, on
their part, to contract improvident marriages. I have per-
fectly on my recollection that the circumstance struck me at
the time, and that I did inquire amongst the people how it
happened ; and the reply T received was, that they had no idea
of entering into the matrimonial state until they could acquire
a competency for their own support, and the support of a
family. In other parts of the country, where I observed very
considerable poverty, I found a greater indifference about their
future comforts than among persons in a more prosperous situa-
tion in life.
Then do you believe that every measure which has a tendency
to augment the comfort of the peasant, and raise his condition
in society, has also a tendency to check improvident marriages ?
— Decidedly ; from the experience I have had, and from the
observations that I have made.
Do the peasantry feel any considerable difficulty in providing
themselves with habitations of a decent and respectable kind in
your part of the country ? — Very great difficulty.
Is there much timber available for those purposes within the
reach of the peasantry ? — There is a great want of native timber,
there is very little of it grown in the parts of the country I am
acquainted with ; and the foreign timber is quite beyond the
reach of the poor, and therefore they cannot make their habi-
tations comfortable or convenient ; and I have heard them fre-
quently make the remark, that if they could get timber at a
cheap rate they would endeavour to make comfortable habita-
tions for themselves.
Is not the high price of foreign timber in Ireland a great
obstacle to the building of slated houses for the peasantry ? — I
think it is.
Do you conceive that a reduction of the duty on foreign tim-
ber would place timber and slated houses within the reach of a
class in Ireland who are now prevented from making use of it
from the high price of the article ? — I know it would ; I know
that if the duty on foreign timber were reduced, it would
enable many to build comfortable houses, who are now obliged
to content themselves with thatched cabins.
Do you conceive that any facility given to the peasantry to
improve the state of the houses in the country, would also have
a tendency to check the increase of the population to which you
have adverted, on the principles laid down in the early part of
your evidence? — I am decidedly of opinion, that any thing
2 G
450 I>R. KELLY EXAMINED.
that would tend to improve the condition of the peasantry,
would be a check on improvident marriages.
Is it the custom in that part of Ireland with which you are
connected, for landlords to give long leases to their tenants ? —
No.
What is the general term ? — One life, or twenty-one years,
whichever may last longest.
Are the peasantry aware, under such a tenure, that if they
plant and register their trees, they become the actual proprie-
tors of that timber when grown up ? — I have endeavoured to
impress that upon them, but I do not know that it is generally
understood.
Have you found any of the tenantry sufficiently enlightened
to follow that advice ? — The planting of trees is a matter not
much attended to by them ; the forms necessary for the registry
may in some degree account for it.
Can you at all inform the Committee what is the expense of
the timber that would be necessary for building a slated house
for that kind of peasantry who would be likely to build it 1 — I
could not exactly say.
Could you draw any comparison between the price of the
wood with which they at present support the roof of this house,
and what would be required in order to support a slated roof ?
— I dare say it would require four times as much money to put
on a roof fit for slates as it would for a thatched cabin.
Can you tell what would be the cost of a roof constructed as
at present ? — It depends upon the part of the country where
the houses are built ; from 20s. to 40s. I suppose.
The question of the transport of the timber is a question quite
independent of the duty ? — When I speak of from 40s. to 20$. I
speak of the timber they now use.
You conceive that you might calculate that a roof of foreign
timber, fit for supporting slates, would cost three or four times
that amount ? — Yes, at least.
Do you know at all the difference between the value of slates
for a roof and the thatch that is at present used ? — In the parts
of the country I am acquainted with there are slates of different
prices ; between the cheapest kind of slate and the thatch roof
there is a very considerable difference ; in fact, the thatch
they do not consider an expense : the straw they make use of
grows on their own little farm, they do not purchase it.
Could you form any estimate of what would be the value of
the whole tenement of a poor person if built with foreign tim-
ber and with slate ; what would be the cost of building at the
present price of timber ? — I conceive I could not complete such
a comfortable habitation as would be sufficiently spacious for a
amily under seventy or eighty pounds,
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 451
Have the lower orders any capital which would go to build
such improved houses? — Not at present, the lower orders in
that part of the country have no capital.
Do you know whether many of the farmers who now build
thatched houses of a better description than those occupied by
the peasantry would not be disposed to build slated houses, and
whether they do not possess the means of doing so, if they could
procure the timber at a cheaper rate than at present ? — When
I spoke of the expense of building houses I alluded to the
better order of the poor, many of whom 1 know at present do
live in thatched cabins who would, if the materials were cheaper,
build more comfortable houses for themselves.
Have you known the circumstance of the occupation of
thatched houses by the description of farmers to whom you
refer made a means by which they were intimidated by the
White Boys, the Ribbonmen, and the disturbers of the public
peace ? — I declare I have not.
Can you tell the Committee whether a new plan which has
been adopted in several parts of Ireland, of covering the poorer
kind of houses with a mixture of lime and moss together, has
been adopted in the diocese of Tuam ? — No, I have not seen it
adopted.
Have you heard of the process of covering cottages with that
mixture ? — No, never till now.
Can you inform the Committee upon what principles the
clergy in your arch-diocese have acted with regard to improvi-
dent marriages ; whether they have taken any steps to discou-
rage them, or whether they felt themselves at liberty to do so ?
— - 1 know, whenever consulted, they always recommend those
• who enter into the matrimonial state, not to do so without hav*.
ing the prospect of being enabled to support, and to make out
subsistence for their families.
Is there not a fee paid upon marriage in your church ?—
There is.
Have any instances come within your knowledge in which the
receipt of that fee has tended to encourage improvident mar-
riages, or has induced the priest to recommend them ? — I have
never known or heard of a priest recommending marriage for
the sake of the fees.
Have you known any instances in which Roman Catholics,
both parties being Roman Catholics, have agreed to be married,
and have been actually married by Protestant clergymen ? —
I have known instances where the Roman Catholic parties have
made application to Roman Catholic clergymen, and have been
refused on account of canonical impediments, and the parties
2 G 2
452 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
were subsequently married by a minister of the Established
Church.
At what age of the parties, can you inform the Committee,
are marriages usually contracted among the peasantry ? — Very
young ; in general the females marry at eighteen or twenty ;
the males at twenty-one, twenty-two, and from that to thirty.
Almost universally, are they not married before they are one
or two-and- twenty ? — Generally speaking, the females are.
Is the practice of subdividing land by the father or chief of a
family usual in the part of the country with which you are ac-
quainted, in order to enable them to contract those marriages ?
*— It is quite a usual thing in that part of the country.
Will you have the kindness to state to the Committee any
facts which have come to your knowledge, if any are within
your knowledge, with respect to the subdivision of land, and
the accumulation of families upon any particular districts, ow-
ing to that practice, accompanied by that of early marriages ?—
I can bring to my recollection a farm which was originally
leased to about twenty families, and I recollect to have seen
sixty different families afterwards living upon the same farm.
Was that in the neighbourhood of Tuam ? — It was.
Do you happen to know whether the land or the farm upon
which that immense increase of population arose was derived
immediately from the proprietor of the fee, or through a grada-
tion of landlords or interests? — It was derived immediately
from the landlord in fee.
Was the subdivision of land which resulted from this state
of things that over which the landlord had any control, or
was the tenantry multiplied in this manner without any inter-
vention of his ? — There was no intervention on the part of the
landlord.
Then it grew from the natural causes of the subdivision of
the soil, and the increase of marriages ? — Entirely.
Was the tract of land an extensive district upon which this
great augmentation took place ? — The tract of land was not
very considerable ; they were obliged to have recourse to other
parts of the country to have tillage, in what we call, in that
part of the country Conacres.
Will you have the kindness to explain to the Committee what
the practice of conacres is in the county of Galway ? — The
practice of conacres in the county of Galway is, that a poor man
'who has not land, or a sufficiency of land of his own, takes an
<acre, or half an acre, or less, from some person for a single sea-
son, and takes the crop of that year off the land.
Is not the practice of burning the soil usual upon taking the
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 453
conacres ? — That is sometimes allowed ; many persons have an
objection to have their land burnt.
Either process is a great exhaustion of the soil ? — Very consi-
derable in some soils.
Then do you mean to describe to the Committee, that the
circumstance of the increase of the number of families upon a
certain district within your knowledge was so great, that, for
the purpose of having absolute support, the people who lived
upon that soil were forced to recur to this practice of conacres
upon another estate and property ? — They were obliged, for
their absolute support, to have recourse to another property.
Was that farm upon which this subdivision took place a consi-
derable farm in the first instance ?. — A very considerable farm
in the first instance ; it would have made the twenty families
comfortable, without being under the necessity of having re-
course to any other land.
Will you have the goodness to state, if you can form any sort
of estimate, what the number of individuals might have been in
those sixty families ? — The average I always make in families is
six.
Then on this farm the number had increased to 360 souls ? —
Thereabouts.
Have you ever been able to compare the result of your own
enumeration of the people in any one part of your district with
the number contained in the last population returns ? — Yes, I
have in some instances.
What has been the result of that comparison ? — So far as
ever I examined, I always found the population under-rated.
In the population returns ? — In the population returns.
As far as your experience goes, the number of people in your
district is above the return officially made to Parliament ? — I
think so.
In what proportion ? — I could not exactly say.
Do you know any one instance you can state the number ; in
the county of Mayo, for instance, or any other part of your dis-
trict ? — I could not exactly adduce any instance, but the general
impression upon my mind always was that the population was
under-rated.
Are you able to state the proportion of births to deaths in
your diocese, or in any parish in your diocese, in a year? — I
could not at this moment.
What is your opinion with regard to the proportion that the
number of Roman Catholics bear to Protestants in your dio-
cese?— I recollect that in the year 1815 the Catholic clergy
took a census of the population in the parish of Tuam, and it
amounted to 6000 souls, and at that time the proportion was,
454 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
that of those 6,000 there were 380 Protestants, and the rest
were Catholics.
What counties are there in your diocese? — Parts of the county
of Galway and the county of Mayo, and one or two parishes in
Roscommon.
Have you, or has any person under your direction, taken
any regular census of any part of the diocese? — The parish
priests in general can pretty nearly ascertain the amount of the
Catholic population of their respective parishes.
In what instances is it that you have discovered an error in
the population returns? — Comparing the population of some
of the small towns in my diocese, and also the returns of the
Roman Catholic clergy, with those made to Parliament, I
found the latter under the returns made by the Roman Catholic
clergy.
Are those returns made from actual enumeration or from
calculation ? — In the instance of Tuam in was done by actual
enumeration.
The Committee understood you to state that the population
return that was recently taken was incorrect ? — I did not say
incorrect ; but I mentioned that, in the population returns I
had looked over, I found that they were under the idea that I
had formed of the population of the districts to which I looked.
Then your conviction of their being under-rated in the po-
pulation returns arises from that calculation, and not from any
actual enumeration ? — My belief that the population was under-
rated in the census proceeds from my comparing those returns
ith the reports of the Roman Catholic clergy.
Were those reports of the Roman Catholic clergy generally
founded upon actual enumeration, or only upon calculation? —
In the instance of Tuam it was by actual enumeration ; in the
others it was from a calculation, knowing the number of fami-
lies and averaging the number of individuals in each family.
Have you any of those returns that have been made to you
by the Roman Catholic clergy ? — I have not got one.
Could you furnish the Committee with them ? — I could not
at this moment.
Was there not a return made during the season of distress
in Ireland of the number of persons relieved in the county of
Mayo from actual enumeration ; from the distribution of that
relief? — I really never thought that enumeration correct.
Did you consider that it was above the actual number or
below it? — Generally above it.
Then you do not conceive that return to be correct ? — I do
not consider that return correct.
In enumerating the causes of the increase of population in
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 455
Ireland, do not you think that the facility of procuring fuel is
one of the chief causes? — The facility of obtaining fuel is a
great encouragement to the building of cabins.
Is not turf the common fuel ? — Turf is the common fuel.
Is the turf bog leased out to the tenantry in the same manner
as their lands are leased, or is it held by the landlord in his own
power ? — It is generally held by the landlord in his own power,
and not included in the lease.
Has any landlord within your knowledge ever refused per-
mission to cut turf, with the view of keeping down the popu-
lation, of his district? — No, I have never known them to do so
for that purpose ; I have known landlords not to allow tenants
to cut more than a certain quantity of turf, but that was to
prevent the bog being exhausted.
You were stating to the Committee the circumstances under
which the population has increased in some particular parts of
the diocese of Tuam, and having among other causes mentioned
the subdivision of land, would you have the goodness to inform
the Committee whether that subdivision of land has been in-
creased by any other causes, that contribute to it besides the
early marriages : in point of fact, whether the landlords of the
country have at any time contributed to its increase ? — I have
reason to believe that the landlords of the country have often
contributed to it for the purpose of increasing the number of
freeholders.
As contested elections have more than once taken place in the
county of Galway, and in the county of Mayo, both which
counties are in part within your diocese, you have had an oppor-
tunity doubtless of witnessing the manner in which votes are
manufactured in those counties ? — I have heard and seen a good
deal about it.
You reside in Tuam ? — I do.
Tuam is a quarter sessions town ? — It is.
Have you seen the registry of freeholders constantly pro-
ceeding in that town? — Frequently.
Have you had an opportunity of knowing how a freehold
is created, and what the class of persons is to whom it is given,
as well as the interest which they generally have in the
tenure of their lands? The Committee take the liberty of re-
ferring to you, because they know that Tuam has been a con-
siderable manufacturing town. — I have known landlords of the
country to parcel out their lands into small portions, making
leases of a life or twenty-one years to their tenants, for the pur-
pose of enabling them to give a vote at elections.
What is the smallest portion of land out of which you have
known a freeholder's being registered ?-— They register out of
three acres sometimes,
456 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
Have not instances come within your knowledge of one or
more freeholders being registered out of less than three acres?
— They may perhaps have registered out of less.
Are not the farms in your part of the country generally held
in joint tenancy? — They have been.
Is not that the usual practice? — It has been the usual practice.
Are not the population of the country in the county of Gal-
way usually congregated in villages, and not residing in sepa-
rate houses? — They are.
Those villages are generally held under a separate lease? —
They are.
How many partners in the lease? — Ten, twelve, or twenty
partners.
And the holders in such joint tenancy divide again, as you be-
fore described, to their sons and sons-in-law, and the members
of their families? — Yes, they do.
Are they not obliged by their landlord, or induced perhaps,
to create a freehold interest in each of the persons upon whom
such small subdivisions of land have devolved? — In many in-
stances.
They all are brought in to be registered ? — In many instances
they are.
Will you have the kindness to describe any of the scenes of
registry which have taken place within your own observation?
— I have never been present at a registry, but I have met the
unfortunate people who have registered, very often.
Do you mean coming in, or returning from registering? — Be-
fore and after registering.
Have you ever conversed with those persons? — Yes, I have.
Will you have the kindness to state the tenure of their con-
versation, or of their observations upon the task they had been
performing?— They have often called upon me to represent
their condition, and stated that the quantity of land they held
was very small; that they were very apprehensive about
taking the oath that they were 40s. freeholders ; and they re-
quested me to advise them what to do upon the occasion. My
advice uniformly was for no person to register as a freeholder
unless he could do it with safety to his own conscience : I have
met them afterwards, and they acknowledged to me, that al-
though they did not feel their consciences quite at ease, they
were obliged to register those freeholds ; that they had been
threatened to be expelled from their holdings, and to be de-
prived of their land, unless they registered those freeholds.
Will you have the kindness to explain to the Committee,
seeing that the persons so registering had a freehold lease,what
the circumstances of the peasantry of that country are, in ge-
neral, which enable the landlord to exequte the threat of ex-
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 457
pelling them from the possession of their land ? — In some in-
stances, bog is not included in the lease which the tenant has ;
and in order to get rid of a tenant, although he may have a
lease, the landlord withholds the use of the bog from him, and
he can no longer keep the holding. In other parts of the coun-
try, along the sea-coast, the lands are not of value, without the
help of sea- weed, or what they call rack, which they make use
of as manure for the ground; and the liberty to cut this sea-
weed, or rack is not included generally in the lease : when,
then, the landlord wishes to get rid of the tenant, he has only
to refuse him permission to cut rack.
Does not the circumstance of joint tenancy, and the failure
of any one tenant in the co-partnership, give to the landlord art
indefinite power over the whole of those who hold in such a
tenancy, and to compel them, if registered as freeholders, to
submit to his dictation? — I think it does.
Do you not conceive, then, that any proposition which should
have for its object to discourage the joint tenancy of farms,
would in itself contribute very much to raise the tenant in his
own class of society, and to make him, in a great degree, more
independant of his landlord ?— Decidedly. I think the joint-
tenancy system is very injurious to the prosperity of Ireland.
Have you ever been present at a contested election? — No, I
never was; I never was at election in my life.
Then you can give no information to the Committee of the
manner in which freeholders are brought up to vote in Ireland?
— Not from actual observation.
If there is any information you can give the Committee
on that subject, the Committee will be glad to hear it? — The
general impression upon my mind is, that the system of 40s.
freeholds in Ireland is a system replete with much mischief; that
it is highly injurious to the morals of the people ; that it is a
source of perjury in many instances.
You can have no doubt either of the effect it must have
generally upon the population of the country) the being either
induced or menaced by their landlords, who are their magis-
tracy, and who ought to be their protectors, and instigated to
the commission of the crime of perjury for the sake of advance-
ing the political influence of the person under whom they de-
rive?—Not the least doubt of it.
You have stated, that you have met with, and conversed with
many of those whom you justly describe as unfortunate people,
who have been compelled to register their freeholds ; have you
found, generally, amongst the peasantry of the arch-diocese of
Tuam, that the people themselves after having so registered, set
any great value upon the possession of their franchise, or that the
458 DR. RELLY EXAMINED.
possession of it raises them in their own estimation, or in that of
others? — I really do not think it does, in the slightest degree,
raise them in their own estimation.
Or in that of others ? — Or in that of others ; and if they were
left free, I am convinced that many of them would prefer much
being allowed to take no share in the election, under their pre-
sent circumstances.
The observations which you have made apply to both the
counties ? — To both the counties, the county or Gal way and the
county of Mayo, so far as I am acquainted with them.
Then you do not think that any legislative enactment, the effect
of which would be to raise the qualification of freeholders, would
be one that would be generally unpalatable to the mass of 40s.
freeholders themselves? — As to what the effect of it would be
in a political point of view, I will not attempt to offer an
opinion; but as to the moral effect of it, I am convinced they
would be most happy if there was some reform in the present
manner of registering 40s. freeholders.
Do you think that on the whole the people would consider it
as a measure calculated for their happiness, if the 40s. freeholds
•Were done away with? — I declare it is my opinion, that a vast
number of them would consider it as conferring a great favour
on them under the existing mode and circumstances.
Have you any doubt, that if such a measure were made con-
current with the grant of political privileges to the Catholics
generally, that to the body of the Catholics such an act would
be unobjectionable ? — To the poor I think it would be unobjec-
tionable, and probably to the better order of the Catholics also.
Are you of opinion, that raising the elective franchise from
40s. to a higher sum, say 10/. or 201. would be palatable to the
lower orders of the present existing 40s. freeholders? — I be-
lieve some of them would consider that it would better their
condition, others perhaps not.
In point of fact, is not a large proportion of that class of
persons who are now registered as 10/. or 20/. freeholders, or
who might register freeholds to that amount, of the Catholic
persuasion ? — A great portion of them are in my part of the
country.
In towns they are unquestionably so, and the middling order
of farmers is almost exclusively Catholic? — Yes.
Would not all the poorest description of 40s. freeholders
consider it a relief from what is now considered by them a
great inconvenience, if the qualification was raised to Wl. ?
— I am perfectly satisfied that many would consider it a
relief.
Would not a great number of the better description of
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 459
40<?. freeholders be able to qualify at the new nate of IQl. 1
— They would.
You have said, that, morally speaking, the people would not
object to the qualification being raised, but you doubted as to
politically ; will you have the goodness to tell the Committee
whether you have any authority for saying that there would be
a political objection to such an arrangement ? — I stated that as
to the political effects of it I could not speak, but I was tho-
roughly convinced as to the moral effects that they would be
good.
You have stated, that you think the moral effects of altering
the rate of the elective franchise would be beneficial to the ge-
neral condition of the people of Ireland ? — Of the poor.
Is it not your opinion, that if the system of 40s. freeholds,
the abuse of the system rather, was totally altered and done
away, that that would be a better mode of benefiting the moral
condition of the lower orders of Catholics, then raising the
rate of qualification from 40s. to a higher rate ? — Any altera-
tion that would check the evils of the present system must lead
to the improvement of the public morals.
Do not you think, that doing away the 40s. freeholders as
they are now, not the real bond fide 40s. freeholders, but the
40s. freeholders in joint tenancy, would more improve the con-
dition of the lower classes than raising the rate of voting in joint
tenancy? — I am satisfied it would.
The better way to correct the moral evils would be to do
away the system entirely ? — Certainly.
Can you point out how it would be possible to make such an
arrangement ? — I declare I could not without due consideration.
Do you think, that in the state of dependence in which the
Irish peasant is necessarily kept by the situation in which he
stands with relation to his landlord, it would be possible, under
any circumstances with respect to an agricultural population
such as that of Ireland, to regulate the registry of the 40s.
franchise in such a manner as to prevent its abuse ?• — I do not
know, at this moment, in what manner the abuse could be
remedied.
You are aware that a bill passed the Houses of Parliament a
year back, or two years back, which was intended to prevent
the registration of votes under joint-tenancy leases ? — Yes.
Did the enactment of that law produce any dissatisfaction
whatsoever amongst the 40s. freeholders within your observa-
tion?— None whatsoever.
Did you hear any one amongst them complain of the effect of
that law in limiting the 40s. franchise ? — I never heard one com-
plain of it.
DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
On the contrary, have not you heard the people express their
satisfaction at the encouragement that was afforded to the abo-
lition of the system of joint tenancy? — All that I have heard
speak of joint tenancy seenr to be well pleased at its being done
away.
Have you ever met an industrious working peasant who did
not complain of the system of joint tenancy as subjecting him to
inconvenience, and the loss which must fall on him from the
failure or negligence of those who were his partners ? — I have
often heard them make such complaints.
In the counties of Galway and Mayo, with which you are
connected, are there any persons in the condition of small far-
mers who hold a fee of five or six acres of land, or who hold
land in perpetuity to that amount ? — Very few ; I do not know
any hardly ; there may be some few.
Are there any in that condition in the towns with which you
are acquainted ? — No, not so low as that.
With respect to the principle of disfranchising the 40s. free-
holders, do not you think it would be unfair to deprive men,
under those circumstances, holding a fee of land of a small num-
ber of acres, or holding a lease in perpetuity, by which they
have no more than a 40s. franchise, although they have that, to
deprive them of their franchise ? — I think if they had a lease in
perpetuity, and that it was worth 40s. to them, that it would be
doing injustice to them.
In short, the same reasons do not hold good with respect to
that description of freeholders that hold good with respect to
the common 40s. freeholders 'of Ireland ? — No doubt of it ; I
do not consider that depriving the common freeholder of his
franchise is depriving him of a right ; on the contrary I think it
is, in many instances, conferring a favour upon him, relieving
him from doing that which he is unwilling to do, but which
dread and intimidation induce him to do.
In the event of disfranchising the 40s. freeholders in counties,
and retaining them in towns and cities, would not the effect of
that be to throw the great power of returning the members for
the county into the hands of persons residing in towns ? — I
should think not.
If the 40s. freeholders are retained in towns and abolished in the
open country, if there exist any number of 40s. freeholders in
towns, it must give them a great preponderance ?— Yes ; but if
the country were divided into small farms instead of having those
joint-tenancy leases, and if the inhabitants were allowed another
right of voting ; for example, raising it from 40s. to 5/. or 10/.
Can you inform the Committee what is the size of the town of
Tuam ? — Of about 800 houses : the suburbs and all, about 1000.
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 461
If the system was to allow the 40=?. freeholder in a town to
retain his vote, would not that system give the town of Tuam, a
very small town, a very unfair preponderance in returning the
members for the county ? — I do not know a single 40s. free-
holder at all in the town of Tuam.
Is not that town principally bishop's property ? — Yes.
Would not those observations apply to a town that was not
held under a bishop : for instance, the town of Westport, in
Mayo ? — Those observations would be applicable to Westport.
Or to any town of a freehold tenure? — Yes.
Does it not appear to you that that would be a very blind
way of legislating with respect to the 40s. freeholders ? — I do
not see the injury it would do to those who in the country would
be deprived of their vote, because I do not consider they gene-
rally set any value upon the right of voting ; they derive no
benefit from it.
Does the description of tenant inhabiting a small house in
such a town as Tuam or Westport, enjoying a 40s. franchise,
differ very much from the description of man who at present
resides in the country and enjoys the elective franchise? — It
does.
Will you state the difference ? — A man in a town enjoying a
40s. freehold is more comfortable, possesses more advantageous
tenure, and more opportunity of employment.
When you drew a distinction between the 40s. freeholds in
towns or cities and the 40s. freeholds in the country, did you
mean the 40s. freeholds in towns and cities of counties at large,
or did you refer to peculiar and corporate jurisdictions, such as
the town of Galway, the county of the town of Galway, the
county of the city of Kilkenny, or cases of that kind ? — There
is no town within the arch-diocese of Tuam which I could call
a corporate town save that of Tuam, in which there are no 40s.
freeholders.
Do not you think the disposition amongst Irish landlords is so
strong to create 40s. freeholders, and to make their property
subservient to political purposes, that if the 40s. freeholders
in the counties were abolished, those possessing property in
towns, would immediately set about the creation of 40s. free-
holders for the purpose of giving them the political right ? —
I do not see exactly how they could make 40s. freeholders in
towns to such an extent.
Would you conceive it expedient to preserve 40s. freeholders
in such a town, for instance, as the town of Westport, in the
county of Mayo, unless that 40s. freehold tenancy was a tenancy
for ever, or a tenancy in fee ? — Unless it was a tenancy for ever
I would not consider it should be preserved.
. KELLY EXAMINED.
of your observations with respect
holders apply to that class of persons who are dependent upon
the proprietor of the soil ? — The class of persons against whom
I object as voters out of 40s. freeholds is that of persons having
only a short tenure of land.
And your objection is equally applicable to the freeholders in
towns and cities ? — Yes.
Then your observations apply altogether to 40s. freeholders
of that description voting in counties ? — Yes.
Is this right of voting upon a 40s. freehold property called
a franchise, generally speaking ? — It is called a franchise in
general.
Generally speaking, do those 40s. freeholders exercise any
freedom of election ? — The poorer order of the 40s. freeholders
certainly have no freedom of election, generally speaking.
Is not it considered dishonourable in a candidate to canvass
the freeholders of an adverse proprietor ? — Yes, I believe they
do consider it dishonourable.
Is it not regarded as a species of poaching ? — They certainly
do not interfere with each other's tenants.
You have described yourself as meeting some voters who had
returned from registering themselves, and you added also from
perjuring themselves, according to their own representation;
now were those unfortunate men dressed ? — Very poorly.
Had they shoes to their feet ? — Some had.
And some had not ? — I have seen some who had not.
Did not they bear more the appearance of mendicants than
of independent electors ? — They had very little appearance of
comfort about them, many of them.
How are they collected together, and conducted to the ses-
sions for registering? — ! have already mentioned I have not
been present at any of those registries.
Do you think that increase in the qualification for the ex-
ercise of the elective franchise in Ireland would increase or
diminish the Roman Catholic interest in that country ? — I do
not think it would diminish the Catholic interest in my part of
the countrv-
In the arch-diocese of Tuam, what is the state of the chapels
in the different parishes, and what is the character and ^degree
of accommodation afforded to the population of the Catholic
persuasion for the celebration of religious worship ? — The state
of the chapels in the arch-diocese of Tuam is very wretched.
Will you have the kindness to give any detailed information
upon that point to the Committee that you have had an oppor-
tunity of making a note of? — As far as my memory has been
able to serve me, without having any document to go by at the
DR. KILLY EXAMINED.
463
moment, I believe that there are in the arch-diocese of Tuam
from about fifteen to eighteen slated chapels, and eight or ten
now in progress ; there are in all about one hundred and six
places for catholic worship.
You mean buildings ? — Yes, I mean buildings of some de-
scription.
How are they protected from the weather ?-— With the ex-
ception of those I have mentioned, all the others are thatched
chapels ; some of them wretched, none of them sufficiently spa-
cious to contain the congregation, and in many instances the
public prayers are celebrated in the open air, having no cover-
ing but the canopy of heaven.
Are those chapels which are of a better description usually
in the towns within the diocese? — In the towns usually.
Can you state to the Committee the number of the largest
congregation which has been in the practice of assembling at
any one of those places where the accommodation is insufficient ?
— 1 have known congregations to average from 1000 to 1500
where they had not sufficient accommodation in places of
worship.
Where there are chapels for the reception of the people, is it
the practice for great numbers to assemble without side, in the
neighbourhood of the place of worship, or do they so from the
impossibility of their being received and accommodated, within
the building ? — They remain on the outside because there is no
accommodation, no room for them in the inside.
Do they equally remain outside, notwithstanding the incle-
mency of the weather, or other circumstances which might add
to the inconvenience of their being so exposed ?— They remain
outside under the inclemency of the weather for the purpose of
offering up their prayers, and because they cannot get room and
accommodation in the house.
From what distance have you known the people in the habit
of sometimes coming to resort to a place of worship ? — I have
known them to resort to a place of worship at a distance of
four, five, and six miles.
And regularly to resort on days of worship from such a dis-
tance ? — Yes.
Are there any parishes within the Unions in your arch-dio-
cese, in which there is no place of worship whatever ? — I know
of no Union that has not some place of worship.
Will you have the goodness to describe to the Committee
such a place of religious worship as that you have last alluded
to, what may be its size, the mode in which it is constructed,
and the probable expense of such an edifice ? — I have seen some
of those edifices where the walls of the house were not above
464 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
eight or ten feet high, twelve or fifteen in breadth, and forty
or fifty in length.
Thatched of course ? — Thatched.
For what number of persons might that have been intended
as an accommodation, or rather what might be the number of
the congregation to attend where only such a building existed ?
— The number of the congregation that is expected to attend,
if there could be accommodation for them at many of those
places, would amount to 1000 or more.
Have you any funds in your arch-diocese, or other resources
applicable to the construction of places of worship, or to the keep-
ing them in repair ? — No funds whatever, except the voluntary
contributions of the faithful ; the contributions of the clergy and
the bishops, and the aid they receive from their Protestant
brethren and neighbours.
Has that aid been liberally given, and without any admix-
ture of religious feeling? — I have been very much engaged in
erecting chapels, of the slated chapels that have been erected ;
most of them have been in my time ; I have been in the several
parishes myself, and have taken a part very frequently in the
collection, and I do not recollect any instance of my being re-
fused by a Protestant gentleman when I applied to him to con-
tribute towards a chapel.
Placing out of consideration the advantage and the comfort
that it would be to the people to have suitable places for their
reception, do you conceive that any act would be more accept-
able to persons of the Catholic persuasion in Ireland than some
means being afforded for improving their places of religious wor-
ship ? — I know of no act that would give the Catholic population
of Ireland so much satisfaction as to see that there was some ar-
rangement for the erection of houses of worship for them.
Is it not usual when the inferior class of the persuasion are
unable to contribute money for them to contribute their labour,
and in other ways to compensate for the deficiency of that
subscription which they cannot afford to give ? — Yes ; they give
their labour where it is a thatched chapel, the poor bring straw,
and they give aid in that manner towards the repair of the
chapel.
The assessment made upon such occasions, though in its name
voluntary, is in point of fact, upon those who are able to con-
tribute any thing, an obligation which cannot be avoided ? —
It cannot be conveniently avoided, and in order to reconcile the
people in some measure to it, the plan I have pursued in having
those chapels erected is to recommend the clergyman to form a
committee in his parish, this committee to consist of the princi-
pal men in each village, and to appoint a treasurer, and that
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 465
the priest, with the aid. of the principal men in each village,
would lay an assessment upon the people according to their
circumstances ; this assessment is collected in the best manner it
can, then put into the hands of a treasurer, and expended after-
wards upon the building.
Have not instances come frequently within your knowledge
where the assessment made in this manner has fallen very
heavily upon the people, and has been complained of by them,
although submitted to for the sake of having a place of wor-
ship ? — Many instances have occurred where they complained of
the assessment, and of being called upon for this aid.
Are there any means of enforcing that assessment ? — No means
whatever of enforcing; the clergyman threatens to withhold
his services from them, and reproaches them for not contri-
buting ; and I know of no other means whatever of enforcing it.
But those appeals from the clergy have generally been found
successful as far as their means have permitted them to contri-
bute?—Yes.
. What do you understand by the clergy threatening to with-
hold their services from them ? — What I allude to is, the prac-
tice of churching females after their accouchement, and the
clergyman, unless he finds that the husband has paid his por-
tion of the cess, does not church the woman till that money for
the erection of the chapel is made up.
Is that the only service that they threaten to withhold?—
That is the only service ; they never refuse the administration
of sacraments by any means.
Are there many parishes within your arch-diocese in which
there are no resident gentry of either persuasion, either Ca-
tholic or Protestant ? — There are some.
In which county? — In both Galway and Mayo.
Have the Catholic clergy in any parish within your arch-
diocese any glebe, or possession of other land in right of their
pastoral character, or as bequeathed to them by any persons of
their own persuasion to be held by those who hold their of-
fice ? — I know two instances.
Will you state those instances ? — One in Castlebar, and one
in Tuam.
Are those ancient endowments ? — No ; the endowment at
Castlebar was made by the late Lord Lucan ; he gave a house
for the clergyman in Castlebar, and in Tuam it has been a
lease of a small park, a bishop's lease renewable, and the per-
son who had this lease assigned it over to the clergyman, and
the inhabitants of the town made amongst themselves a col-
lection of a sum of money, by which they built a slated house
for the accommodation of the clergyman of the town.
2 H
466 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
How is the trust under which that is held accomplished, or
to whom has it been conveyed ? — In Tuam it has been conveyed
to me.
To you and to your successors, or to you individually ? —
To me ; and I make a declaration that I hold it for the purpose
that I now mention.
Do you think, that if there was a power under the law of
endowing parishes, or the holders of parishes of the Catholic
persuasion, with houses, or with land whereon houses could be
built, that endowment would be carried to any extent, for
instance, in your own arch-diocese ? — I think it would, to a
greater extent than it is at present.
Do you know of other instances in Ireland, besides those two
you have mentioned in the arch-diocese of Tuam? — I know there
are many other instances throughout Ireland ; I could not ex-
actly refer to them at this moment.
In any instances which have come within your knowledge,
have you also known of cases of dispossession of persons holding
under such titles? — Not as to a glebe, but I have as to a chapel.
Will you state the instance which has come to your know-
ledge as to a chapel ? — It has occurred in the parish of Bally -
nakill, in the arch-diocese of Tuam. There was a Mr. O'Fla-
herty held the lease of a farm, [and he built a slated chapel for
the accommodation of his family, and for the tenantry and peo-
ple around him. The landlord found in the course of time
that there was some formal defect in his lease, and he broke or
threatened to break it. He arid the landlord came to some
agreement, but Mr. O' Flaherty gave up the lease under a verbal
understanding with the landlord that the chapel was not to be
molested; but after getting possession of the property the
landlord thought proper to lock up the chapel doors, and not
allow the faithful to resort to it as a place of worship ; he con-
verted it into an office or farm-house. I
That was in Connamara, was not it? — Yes.
Did he not build another chapel for the people ? — Never.
In other parts of Ireland, have you heard of cases where the
possession of lands, granted either for places of worship, or
for the residence of Catholic ministers, has been disputed by the
proprietor, after possession has been had, and the buildings
erected? — I could not exactly state any particular case.
You have given to the Committee information as to the state
of the chapels and places of worship in your diocese ; will you
inform them what accommodation is afforded for schools, and
places of education? — We have built large and commodious
school-houses for the education of the poor in the towns of
Tuam and Westport, and of Castlebar ; there are schools
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 467
throughout the diocese at large, established by the exertions of
the clergy y and the contributions of the faithful, where the
poor in each parish receive gratuitous instruction ; and in one
country parish in the arch-diocese, where there is no resident
gentlemen whatever, the Catholic clergyman has succeeded in
establishing sixteen schools, for the gratuitous education of the
poor of the parish; he has received some aid latterly from some
public fund, in money, stationery, and school requisites.
Are the chapels used as school-houses generally, or have you
other buildings applicable for that purpose ? — All the chapels
in my diocese are used as sunday-schools, and a great many of
the country chapels are used as daily schools.
By sunday-schools you mean schools where the children are
catechized by the minister ? — Schools for religious instruction
before and after mass.
In the country parishes where the chapels are used for daily
schools, do you apply them to that use, on account of any par-
ticular circumstances that make it desirable to use them for
that purpose, or for want of other buildings to receive the
children ? — Necessity compels us to use them ; we should have
great reluctance to convert the house of God into a school if we
could avoid it ; but the want of having any other place for
giving instruction to the poor obliges us to avail ourselves of
the chapels as school-houses.
Are there any congregations in your diocese without any
place of worship ? — I do not know any parishes without some
small place. From the inadequacy of the places of worship, on
performing parochial visitation, I have been almost in fact
obliged to administer confirmation out in the open air, as in
the extensive parishes there are sometimes two or more congre-
gations.
Are the parishes very large ? — Not very large, generally.
Do the peasantry of the country express their feelings upon
this subject, having no places of worship ? — They do regret it
extremely, not having places of worship; they feel it very
much.
Are you aware that considerable sums of money have been
granted for furnishing places of worship for the highlands of
Scotland? — I have heard so.
What would be the average expense of building a chapel to
contain from one thousand to fifteen hundred people in that part
of the country? — I should think from six to eight hundred
pounds perhaps.
Is there a disposition amongst the people to attend their
places of worship regularly on Sundays? — Y"es, I find a very
great disposition on their part to attend on Sundays.
2 H 2
DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
Is there a disposition generally to attend to their religious
duties ? — I think there is a very strong disposition : there are
exceptions to it, but generally speaking I think there is that
disposition.
In their communication with each other, do they observe
strictly the common and proper moral duties? — Their moral
conduct in general is tolerably good.
Are they kind in their conduct towards each other ? — They
are generally.
Is there a readiness on their part to take advantage of the
instruction that is afforded them at the schools ? — A very great
readiness ; a great desire of receiving instruction in our schools.
Is there a general disposition on the part of the people to
come to confession ? — There is.
Does that disposition to come to confession vary according to
the state of tranquillity, or of disturbance which prevails in the
country ?— - -That has a very great influence upon that dis-
position.
Does the inclination to come to confession either increase or
diminish when the country is in a state of disturbance? — It di-
minishes considerably, manifestly.
Are the individuals who in those cases cease to come to con-
fession, individuals who are connected or concerned in dis-
turbances in the country? — Invariably I have found it so.
You recollect the year 1820? — Yes.
The immediate neighbourhood in which you reside, and a
great part of the arch-diocese of Tuam, was at that time con-
siderably disturbed ? — Yes.
.Did you find that the indisposition you allude to existed ex-
teiraiyely at that period ? — At that period I recollect it in a
particular manner ; we could not persuade them generally to
comply with their religious duties.
Can you state any particular instances with respect to any
particular part of the country where that happened ? — In a
parish in the immediate vicinity of Tuam, and in all the pa-
rishes where the disturbances prevailed, I found an indisposi-
tion oft the part of the people to attend their religious duties,
and ey,ejn their attendance at prayers on Sunday was by no
jneans so regular as it was previously and subsequently thereto.
Did you €jid generally, at that period, that the influence of
the Catholic Clergy over their flocks was much impaired ? — I
experienced myself that it was very much impaired, and that
those, who on all former occasions paid very great attention to
my advice, disregarded it upon that occasion.
Was their not in the demeanor of the people, and in their
deportment towards the Catholic clergy, a great alteration at
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 469
that time from the habit of respect and deference which they
usually paid to their pastors ?•— Manifestly so. I had to go to
several chapels on that occasion to address the people, arid I
have known instances where, after I had retired, some of those
refractory persons assembled the people, and endeavoured to
persuade them not to pay any attention to the advice I had
given them, saying, what I had said was very good, but what
relief did I give them that their distresses and their poverty were
not relieved.
Have any instances come within your knowledge of personal
indignity or disrespect offered to members of the Catholic
priesthood at that time, or of injuries to their property I — Not
in my neighbourhood at that time.
Within your diocese were there not? — No personal insult.
Or injuries to property ? — Not on that occasion. On former
disturbances I have known injury to be done to the property
of Roman Catholic clergymen ; I have known their corn to be
set fire to.
Was that a very remote time ? — I should think it was in the
year 1807 or 1808.
You have stated that at that period the people complained
of the price of land and the weight of taxes, did they no>t
complain also of the exaction, as it was called, with respect to
both religions which they complained of having to support ? —
They complained of the priest, the parson, and the tithe
procter.
When they complained of the priest, will you have the
goodness to state what the particular circumstances of pressure
upon the population were which they attributed to the priest ?
— They considered that oppressed as they were they could not
afford to be giving the priest 2s. 6d. for baptisms, a guinea for
a marriage, money for building a chapel, money for establish-
ing a school ; that, in short, the demands of the priest upon
them were so many, that they could not answer them, and that
it would be better not to attend to those things.
Part of the obligation which they imposed was not to make
those payments to the priests ? — It was ; they bound them by
an oath not to make those payments to the priests ; in other
instances, they bound them by an oath not to go to confession.
Were the sums you have mentioned the fees at that time
payable to the priests for the performance of those duties ? —
Are the same sums still payable? — The same.
Have they been at that rate ever since you presided over the
arch-diocese of Tuam ? — At that rate exactly ; there has been
lip augmentation whatever.
470 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
Within your diocese is not the pressure of tithes payable to
Protestant ministers particularly severe ? — It is complained of
generally.
Is it particularly severe as pressing upon the occupying
tenant ? — It is particularly severe upon the occupying tenant.
The tithe of potatoe is not payable in your arch-diocese ? —
No, it is not.
Will you state what is the tithe, the payment of which
presses particularly upon the tenant in the province of Con-
naught? — Grain of every kind, flax, and I think wool, lambs,
&c.
Is he not much better off than the peasant in the province of
Munster ? — -Isuppose he is ; but yet the tithe on corn they find
very severe, particularly in a bad season ; when the crop fails,
they feel agreat hardship. I have heard them say in some in-
stances that the tithe proctor's demand for tithe was to the full
value of the crop.
The tithe of hay is not payable in the province of Con-
naught ? — No, it is not ; it has been demanded latterly by
some.
In the year 1820 very serious disturbances took place in the
counties of Mayo and Galway ? — In part of the counties of
Mayo and Galway.
Does it come within your knowledge that the cause of those
disturbances was attributable in any degree to the pressure of
tithes? — They generally complained of tithes, taxes, grand
jury cesses, vestry cesses, the payment of the Catholic clergy,
the high price of land : all those things together.
Were their complaints louder against the pressure of tithes
than against the pressure of any other charges ? — No ; they
complained equally of high rents, grand jury cesses, and church
rates.
Those disturbances were the origin of what are usually
called the White Boy disturbances? — They were called Rib-
bonmen.
Then the efforts of those Ribbonmen were not directed spe-
cially against tithes ? — Not by any means ; they were directed
more against landlords.
You are aware that petitions were sent to Parliament com-
plaining of the state of the law with regard to endowments of
chapels and other charitable Catholic institutions, did you sign
any of those petitions ? — I do not at this moment recollect that
I did.
Has not there been a decree of the court of Chancery that
has contributed to settle the law recently ? — I do not know that
there has been a decree ; there was some declaration made ; I
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 471
have heard some person state that it did not amount to a
decree.
In point of fact, have the Catholics such a confidence in the
state of the law as to induce them to bequeath property for the
purpose of endowing chapels or school-houses ? — No, they havenot.
When you stated just now the causes which led to the insur-
rection in 1820, amongst the complaints of the people which
marked that insurrection, you stated the payment of dues to
their own clergy, can you then have any doubt that the re-
mission of those fees and the payment of dues of that nature,
if provided for by any arrangement made by the State, would
be extremely acceptable to the people themselves ? — However
much the people may have complained, I think they would
prefer, notwithstanding, to support their own clergy, to seeing
them paid by the State.
You mentioned to the Committee what the amount of the
fees paid in your arch-diocese was, have you reason to believe
that the amount of them is the same in other dioceses in
Ireland, or is it greater or less?— That is the general practice
throughout the province of Connaught.
Is that practice regulated by agreement among your suffra-
gans, or by any mandate or arrangement of yours ? — By agree-
ment amongst ourselves.
Are you aware whether the amount is the same in the
province of Munster ? — No ; I believe there is some difference.
Have you not heard that it is greater in the province of
Munster? — I believe it is greater; I am not acquainted with
the province of Munster.
You mentioned to the Committee on the subject of early and
improvident marriages, that in some instances the rite of mar-
riage had been celebrated by a Protestant minister, in conse-
quence of the disinclination of the Catholic clergyman to per-
form the ceremony ? — Yes.
In such cases does the Protestant minister receive a fee for
the performance of that duty from Catholics ? — They receive
none from the poor I have heard.
Is the Catholic clergyman accustomed to marry the lowest
order of the poor without demanding any fee? — Yes; often
receiving no emolument whatsoever.
Besides the fee paid by the individuals who are united, is
there not another source of benefit to the Catholic clergyman
from contributions made at marriages? — Not in the province
of Connaught at present.
Are they not accustomed to make collections ? — No, not at
present, that I am aware of, in Connaught.
472 ' DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
Has the disuse of that custom taken place since your presi-
dency over that see, or has it never been the custom ? — It has
got into disuse within my time.
But it is still continued in other parts of Ireland ? — I hear so.
Have you not heard that it is a considerable source of the re-
venue of the Catholic clergyman in some parts of the south ?—
I understand it is.
Are there any other occasions on which collections or contri-
butions are made by those who assist at ceremonies performed
by the Catholic clergy ? — None whatever ; the only collections
that we make are for the erection and repair of chapels and
the establishment of schools.
Have you not at marriages what is called a cake ? — No.
You stated that the "only mode of enforcing the assessment
that was levied for the repair of chapels was by threatening to
withhold the rites of the church, and that the rite which was
threatened to be withheld was that of churching women ; is
that the only rite that is threatened to be withheld with a view
of enforcing the payment of those assessments 1 — That is the
only rite they are allowed to withhold.
That of course operates only upon persons who have wives,
and who have wives that have children, have they any mode of
enforcing the payment against other persons ? — None whatever,
but remonstrating publicly with them before the congregation
that they have not paid their proportion the same as their
neighbours have done.
What is the nature of that public remonstrance? — Before
the congregation they state that such and such persons have
paid the assessment that has been laid on them by their neigh-
bours towards the repairs of the house of God, and that such
and such other persons withheld their contributions, and the
clergyman exhorts them not to withhold any longer.
What is the effect of that remonstrance upon the persons
against whom it is directed? — It generally has a very good
effect ; they generally contribute to the utmost of their power.
What would be the effect upon them if they did not contri-
bute ? — They would bear it patiently.
Does it imply any exclusion ? — No censure, no excommunica-
tion, no ecclesiastical punishment whatever is inflicted or ap-
prehended.
On the confession, would not the non-payment of those as-
sessments interfere with the absolution of the penitent ? — Never.
Does not a remonstrance of this nature expose the individual
to some temporal inconveniences ? — It may be hurtful to his
feelings.
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 473
Does not it excite against him the prejudice of his neighbours ?
lam not aware that it does; they may disapprove of his
conduct.
Do you know any instances in which it has so operated ? — No,
not to his injury.
Does this mode of levying this particular assessment gene-
rally prove sufficient for its enforcement ? — It often fails.
Is it applied to any other assessment excepting that for
chapels ? — For chapels and schools.
Arid those only ? — Those only.
Has it not been applied occasionally to the levy of what is
called Catholic Rent ? — Not to my knowledge, never in any
one instance.
Have you never heard that a clergyman did withhold, or
threaten to withhold the performance of a religious rite, or re-
monstrate publicly with an individual, on that account? — Cer-
tainly not in my part of the country ; they never made any ob-
servation upon any individual for the non-payment of that con-
tribution ; in fact, I do not suppose there was any great oppor-
tunity, for I never knew any money that was paid with such
alacrity as that was.
In your diocese no instance of that kind occurred ? — I never
heard of one.
Are the assessments for the repair of chapels laid on by the
people themselves ? — By the people themselves, by the heads of
villages ; the clergyman is recommended to form them into a
committee, who assess the parish, and the clergyman is the prin-
cipal collector of this assessment ; he pays it into the hands of
a treasurer appointed by themselves, and the money is expended
afterwards.
Can you describe to the Committee the manner in which
church and parochial rates are levied within the parishes with
which you are acquainted in the arch-diocese of Tuam ? — The
collection of the church rates rests with the churchwardens ;
they employ a clerk, and this clerk sends out his man amongst
the people, and he collects this church rate from them.
The churchwarden is empowered by the vestry ? — By the
vestry.
Are you able to inform the Committee how the vestry is as-
sembled and constituted ? — 1 have never attended at a vestry,
but I have heard it mentioned that the parishioners assemble
there, Catholic and Protestant, and that the vestry cess for the
year is announced and discussed ; the Catholics are allowed to
oifer their opinion on the matter, but if a difference of opinion
should arise, I understand that latterly the Catholics have been
474 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
excluded, as not having a legal right to vote in vestries on the
occasions for which they are usually assembled.
Not having votes in church matters? — Not having votes in
the vestries on those occasions.
Do you mean that they are allowed to attend and give
opinions, but not to give their votes ? — Yes.
Do you mean that they have no votes on any occasion in ves-
tries, or that being assembled in vestry, they are excluded from
voting in matters relative to the repair of churches ? — In mat-
ters relative to the repair of churches. Among others, they
are allowed to be present at the discussion, and where they come
to vote an assessment for the repair of the church they are ex-
cluded, I have heard them say so.
Do you mean that they have a vote in all proceedings of ves-
tries except as to the amount of assessment ? — No, I have not
known them to vote at all.
Is not the exclusion of Catholics from voting at vestries in
the parish at Tuam, for example, a matter of late origin, and
a few years ago were not they allowed to vote ? — It is a matter
of late origin ; they were always in the habit before of taking a
share in it.
Residing in the parish of Tuam, you can inform the Com-
mittee whether the amount of rate has been greatly augmented
since the period when they have ceased so to vote at vestries ? —
Yes, I hav« heard them say that it has increased considerably.
Do you know whether their attendance at vestries is a matter
of right, or a matter of courtesy ? — A matter of courtesy, on
those occasions, I understand.
Do you know any instances in which, at the parochial vestries,
sums have been voted for the repair of Roman Catholic chapels
in your district? — I have heard of one instance.
And levied on the parish ? — Levied on the parish.
Or for the support of Roman Catholic schools? — I have
never known any thing to be done in vestry for Catholic schools ;
I have heard of one vote of a vestry for the repair of a chapel.
Where was that ? — At Athenry.
Although a vote has not been specifically made for the repair
of chapels, are not you aware that sometimes, under a vote for
contingencies, there is a sum included for the repair of Roman
Catholic chapels ? — I never knew an instance in the arch-diocese
of Tuam, except the one I have mentioned.
Do you know of any considerable sum having been assessed
in the parish of Tuam for the repair of the cathedral church ? —
Yes, I have heard of that.
Do you know what amount ? — 1500/. I understood.
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 475
Are you aware what the assessment made in the parish of
Athenry was, which you have alluded to? — IQL I understood.
Annually? — No, only on one occasion.
Was this vote in the parish of Athenry in support of a Roman
Catholic chapel made while the Catholics were in participation
of the right of voting at vestries ? — I never knew them to have
the right of voting; they were lately excluded from attaching
any weight to their opinions.
In the course of the last year there prevailed in Ireland gene-
rally a strong opinion on the subject of certain prophecies known
by the name of Pastorini's Prophecies, were they much circu-
lated within the arch-diocese of Tuam ? — I have made the most
diligent search in my power, and in my life I never met more
than two copies of Pastorini's Prophecies ; they certainly were
not in general circulation throughout the arch-diocese of Tuam,
for I used the utmost diligence, and got my clergy to unite in
making the most strict search, and we could not make out a
third copy of Pastorini's Prophecies.
Can you inform the Committee what the impression was gene-
rally with respect to those prophecies upon the minds of the
lower orders of the population ? — I do not think the prophecies
of Pastorini were much read or understood in my part of the
country at all.
Have you heard that in other parts of Ireland they were ex-
tensively circulated ? — Yes, I have.
Did you hear whether they had much effect upon the people
in those other parts of the kingdom ? — I think that they made
an impression upon some individuals.
Or that there was considerable expectation and excitement in
the popular mind caused by them? — Not that I could ever
discover.
Did not some members of the Catholic prelacy publish ad-
dresses to the people to dissuade them from believing in those
prophecies, and to deny any authority being attached to them
by the church ? — They did .
May the Committee not assume then, when such letters came
forth from them, that the circulation of the prophecies must
have been general, at least in those dioceses where such ad-
dresses were published ? — I cannot speak as to other dioceses.
Did not the clergy in your diocese also inculcate upon the
people that the church attached no authority to those publi-
cations ? — They did ; and for the last year in particular, in con-
sequence of the importance that was attached to those prophecies
by some persons, the clergy throughout the diocese had instruc-
tions to announce to the peasantry not to read the prophecies of
Pastorini should they come in their way, or any other prophecies
476 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
whatsoever ; nor any books having a tendency to inflame their
minds ; and, in short, to submit all books to their pastors for
inspection.
At what time was this?— Throughout the entire of the last year.
Are there generally amongst the people circulated prophecies
of a general nature, which lead them to the expectation of the
accomplishment of particular events, or of great changes arising
in their situation, or in that of the country ; is such the habit
or the custom in your part of the country ? — I believe there are
imposters, who go about and undertake to circulate and explain
prophecies ; but I never could learn that they were successful
in their imposition, or that they had made any material im-
pression.
Or that much credit is attached to them ? — Or that much
credit is attached to them.
Is the belief general in Ireland in the cases which have been
stated of the miraculous cures that have taken place, and have
been supposed to take place in consequence of the interposition
of particular prayers or services of the church ? — There is a
general belief that God listens to the prayers of pious men, and
that through their intercession the infirm are sometimes re-
stored to health.
And that such was the case in the instances which have been
published ? — And that such has been the case in some late in-
stances. The Catholic doctrine, with respect to miracles, is,
that God has at all times the power of performing miracles, and
that he does sometimes perform those miracles through the in-
tervention of pious persons.
Are those miracles regarded by the Roman Catholic church,
as evidence of the superiority of that church to others ? — The
Catholic church does consider that the power of working miracles
is a strong evidence of the truth of the 'faith of the church.
Is the opinion inculcated or believed, that it is a proof of the
exclusive truth of that church ? — The Catholics believe their
church to be the true church, and consider that miracles furnish
one of its proofs.
Do they consider, in the Roman Catholic church, the per-
formance of those miracles to be evidence of the superiority of
that church to all others ? — They do consider those miracles as
one of the proofs of the truth of the faith of their church.
Are there a great number of Catholics who do not believe in
the truth of those miracles ? — No Catholic is bound to believe
in the existence of those miracles to which allusion is made.
Are you aware of the fact that there are a great number of
Catholics who do not believe in those miracles ? — I am ; they
do not cease to be Catholics on that account.
DR. KELLY EXAMINED. 477
Do Catholics conceive any particular privilege to be obtained
by their own Church in consequence of those miracles ? — They
conceive the power of working miracles to exist, but in what
particular instance that power is exercised they are not called
upon to decide.
That is a matter of private judgment ? — .That is a matter of
private judgment, as to the recent miracles.
And formed upon their own view, on examination of the evi-
dence on which each rests ? — Exactly.
How can a miracle which parties are at liberty to believe or
disbelieve afford any evidence of the truth of the church in
which it is worked? — The evidence afforded of the truth of the
faith that is in our church, is deduced from the miracles formally
recognised in the universal church; but as to the particular
question whether this power has been recently exercised, that is
a matter of private judgment which does not affect the faith of
an individual.
Does the Roman Catholic church consider that miracles can
be worked by other churches? — The Roman Catholic church
believes that God can work a miracle through the instru-
mentality of any agent he may please to select.
Do they believe that a miracle so worked is evidence of the
truth of that religion through the instrumentality of which it is
worked ? — Miracles form a part of the evidences of the true
church.
In point of fact, are the Committee to understand that all
miracles subsequent to those recorded in the New Testament
are matters on which a good Catholic may exercise his private
judgment as to any particular miracle ? — Certainly. But every
good Catholic believes that miracles have been wrought in the
church subsequent to those recorded in the New Testament,
and may still continue to be wrought.
Subsequent to those recorded in the Evangelical books? — Yes.
Yesterday you stated, in your examination, that in the
prayers which were addressed to the Virgin Mary, Catholics
addressed her not as a Divinity, but as an intercessor? — Yes.
The Committee see in a book which contains prayers addressed
by Roman Catholics to the Deity, the following prayer : " Tu
qui es Mater Dei miserecordissima humilis omnibus penitentibus
<£ inclinans potestissima ; quia per te ruine angelice reparantur,
" per te sanctis vite janua aperitur, que regem glorie tuis sacris
" uberibus lacrasti et nuturisti et totis visceribus dilexisti, te
66 deprecor ut mea inopia sublevetur, ut per te purgationem
" peccatorum obtineam :" does not that prayer infer something
" more than a prayer of intercession? — Not in the least, it is
through her intercession ; the words are " ut per te purgationem
peccatorum obtineam,"
478 DR. KELLY EXAMINED.
It is the use of the word per that constitutes it a prayer of
intercession? — Yes, it is through her intercession only that all
those favours are sought to be obtained by this prayer.
You stated in your examination yesterday, that Catholics in
addressing the cross, do not consider the cross as more than
either a picture or a piece of wood ? — Nothing more.
The Committee see in the same book of prayers the following
prayer addressed to the cross : " Crux Christi semper sit meum ;
" Crux Christi est quam semper adoro ; Crux Christi est vera
" salus ; Crux Christi superat gladium ; Crux Christi solvit
" vincula mortis ; Crux Christi est arma invincibilis ; Crux
" Christi est via veritas et vita ; Crux Christi impedit omne
" malum ; Crux Christi dat omne bonum ; Crux Christi affert
66 vitam eternam; Crux Christi salvet me; Crux Christi sit
" super me ; Crux Christi sit ante me ; Crux Christi sit post
" me, quia antiquus hostis semper fugit ubi te vidit." The
Committee wish to ask whether those prayers can be addressed
to the cross merely as matter, or as a piece of wood, or whether
they do not contain more ? — Nothing more than this ; we con-
sider that it was on the cross Jesus Christ purchased redemption
and salvation for us ; the words Crux Christi adoro te have not
reference to the material of the cross, but that adoration has
reference to Him who died upon the cross.
Then the cross is not separated from Jesus Christ in any
prayer which Catholics address either to Christ upon the cross,
or to the cross itself? — When we address the cross in these
words, our adoration is directed to Him who died upon it.
Is the cross used in that sense figuratively? — Figuratively;
of course, in the sense I have mentioned.
And in no other sense than that in which a Protestant would
understand the word when he may be told to bear the cross of
Christ? — [A book was handed to the witness.']
Is that a catholic prayer book in common use in Ireland ? —
It is an approved catholic prayer book in common use in
Ireland.
In page 204, in paragraph 11, there is the following passage:
if Catholics renounce all divine worship and adoration of images
" or pictures ; God alone we worship and adore, nevertheless
" we place pictures to reduce our wandering thoughts and
"excite our memory towards heavenly things; further, we
" allow a certain honour to be shown to the images of Christ
" and his saints beyond what is due to profane images and
" figures ; not that we believe any divinity or virtue to reside
" in them for which they ought to be honoured, but because
" the honour given to pictures as regard to the prototype or
" thing represented," is that the doctrine taught by the Roman
Catholic clergy to the people of Ireland T Precisely.
479
Veneris, 25° die Martii, 1825.
LOED VISCOUNT PALMERSTON,
[IN THE CHAIR.
The Right Reverend James Magaurin, D.D, Titular Bishop of
the Diocese of Ardagh, called in ; and Examined.
ARE you acquainted with the transactions that took place in
the year 1788, respecting a communication with foreign Univer-
sities, on the subject of matters relating to the authority of the
Pope ? — Yes ; I have some recollection of it.
Mr. Pitt, in that year, called upon the Committee of the English
Roman Catholics to send some queries to those Universities ? —
Yes, it is on my recollection, that it was a good deal talked of in
the Irish College of Salamanca, in the year 1789, on my arrival
there.
These are the questions ; first, <c Has the Pope or cardinals, or
any body of men, or any individual of the Church of Rome, any
civil authority, power, jurisdiction or pre-eminence whatsoever,
within the realm of England ; secondly, Can the Pope, cardinals,
or any body of men, or any individual of the Church of Rome,
absolve or dispense with His Majesty's subjects from their oath of
allegiance, upon any pretext whatsoever ; thirdly, Is there any
principle in the tenets of the Catholic Faith, by which Catholics
are justified in not keeping faith with heretics, or other persons
differing from them in religious opinions, in any transaction either
of a public or a private nature." Where are the answers to those
questions to be found ? — I believe the Universities of Salamanca,
Alcala, and Valladolid, in Spain, have been consulted, and I be-
lieve also the Universities of Paris, Louvain, and Douay, and
those universities have given their answers, and I believe their
answers are all the same in substance.
Are not they contained at length in Mr. Butler's Memoirs ? —
Yes ; I believe so.
Are those answers acknowledged to contain a doctrine that is
admitted to be correct by the Catholic bishops of Ireland ? — No
doubt of it ; and by the Catholic laity ; I believe they form the
substance of the oath of allegiance which is taken by the clergy
and laity ; I believe the oath of allegiance has been framed on the
foundation of those decisions.
Was not an Abstract of those answers published, with the ad-
dress of the Catholic Committee of 1793 ? — Yes ; I think so.
Have you read them ? — I have ; and I subscribe to them, with
all my heart and soul.
480 DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED.
Is that before you, an Abstract of the answers that were re-
turned, (the same being shewn to the witness) ? — It is.
[ The same was delivered in, and read.]
" Abstract from the Answer of the Sacred Faculty of Divinity of
Paris, to the above Queries.
" After an introduction, according to the usual forms of the
University, they answer the first query, by declaring, Neither the
Pope nor the cardinals, nor any body of men, nor anv other per-
son of the Church of Rome, hath any civil authority, civil power,
civil jurisdiction, or civil pre-eminence whatsoever, in any king-
dom, and consequently none in the kingdom of England, by rea-
son or virtue of any authority, power, jurisdiction, or pre-eminence,
by Divine institution, inherent in, or granted, or by any other
means, belonging the Pope, or the Church of Rome. This doctrine,
the Sacred Faculty of Divinity at Paris, has always held, and
upon every occasion maintained ; and upon every occasion has
rigidly proscribed the contrary doctrine from her schools.
" Answer to the second Query, Neither the Pope nor the car-
dinals, nor any body of men, nor any person of the Church of
Rome, can by virtue of the keys, absolve or release the subjects of
the King of England from their oath of allegiance.
" This and the first query are so intimately connected, that the
answer of the first immediately and naturally applies to the se-
cond, &c.
" Answer to the third query, There is no tenet in the Catholic
Church by which Catholics are justified by not keeping faith with
heretics, or those who differ from them in matters of religion ; the
tenet, that it is lawful to break faith with heretics, is so repugnant
to common honesty, and the opinions of Catholics, that there is
nothing of which those who have defended the Catholic faith
against Protestants, have complained more heavily, than the
malice and calumny of their adversaries, in imputing this tenet to
them, &c. &c. &c.
" Given at Paris, in the General Assembly of the Sorbonne,
held on Thursday the 11 th day, before the calends of March,
1789.
" University of Louvain. " Signed in due form."
" The Faculty of Divinity at Louvain, having been requested
lo give her opinion upon the questions above stated, does it with
readiness; but struck with astonishment that such questions
should, at the end of this eighteenth century, be proposed to any
learned body, by inhabitants of a kingdom that glories in the
talents and discernment of its natives — The Faculty being assem-
bled for the above purpose, it is agreed, with the unanimous
DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. 481
assent of all voices, to answer the first and second queries abso-
lutely in the negative.
" The Faculty does not think it incumbent upon her, in this
place, to enter upon the proofs of her opinion, or to shew how it
is supported by passages in the Holy Scriptures, or the writings
of antiquity ; that has already been done by Bossuet, De Marca,
the two Barclays, Goldastres, the Pithaeuses, Argentre Widring-
ton, and his Majesty King James the First, in his Dissertation
against Bellarmine and Du Perron ; and by many others, &c. &c.
" The Faculty then proceeds to declare, that the sovereign
power of the State, is in nowise (not even indirectly as it is
termed) subject to, or dependent upon any other power, though
it be a spiritual power, or even though it be instituted for eternal
salvation, &rc. &c.
" That no man, nor any assembly of men, however eminent in
dignity and power, nor even the whole body of the Catholic
church, though assembled in general council, can upon any ground
or pretence whatsoever, weaken the bond of union between the
sovereign and the people ; still less can they absolve or free the
subjects from their oath of allegiance.
" Proceeding to the third question, the said Faculty of Divinity,
(in perfect wonder that such a question should be proposed to
her,) most positively and unequivocally answers, That there is not,
and there never has been among the Catholics, or in the doctrines
of the church of Rome, any law or principle which makes it law-
ful for Catholics to break their faith with heretics, or others of a
different persuasion from themselves in matters of religion, either
in public or private concerns. The Faculty declares the doctrine
of the Catholics to be, that the divine and natural law which
makes it a duty to keep faith and promises, is the same, and is
neither shaken nor diminished, if those with whom the engage-
ment is made, hold erroneous opinions in matters of religion, &c.
" Signed in due form, on the 18th of November, 1788."
" University of Valladolid.
" To the first question it was answered, That neither Pope,
cardinals, or even a general church, have any civil authority,
power, jurisdiction or pre-eminence, directly or indirectly, in the
kingdom of Great Britain, or over any other kingdom or province
in which they possess no temporal dominion.
" To the second, it is answered, That neither Pope nor cardi-
nals, nor even a general council, can absolve the subjects of Great
Britain from their oaths of allegiance, or dispense with their ob-
ligat .
" TO the third, it is answered, That the obligation of keeping
faith, is grounded on the law of nature, which binds all men
2 T
482 PR. MAG AWN EXAMINED.
equally, without respect to their religious opinions ; and with re-
gard to Catholics, is still more cogent, as it is confirmed by the
principles of their religion.
« Signed in the usual form, February 17, 1789."
Do not the oaths that are required to be taken by Catholics, by
the Act of 1773, and the Act of 1793, contain a denial of those
charges that are so frequently made against Roman Catholics,
with respect to not keeping faith with heretics, and with respect
to the supposed temporal authority of the Pope ? — Yes ; I think
those oaths contain that.
[A copy of the Oath required by the Act of the 13th and \4dh
of George 3d, was delivered in ; and read as follows:]
" I, A. B. do take Almighty God, and his only Son Jesus
Christ, my Redeemer, to witness, That I will be faithful, and
bear true allegiance to our most gracious Sovereign Lord King
George the Third, and him will defend, to the utmost of my
power, from all conspiracies and attempts whatever, that shall be
made against his person, crown, and dignity ; and I will do my
utmost endeavour, to disclose and make known [to His Majesty,
and his heirs, all treasons and traitorous conspiracies which may
be formed against him or them. And I do faithfully promise to
maintain, support, and defend, to the utmost of my power, the
succession of the Crown in His Majesty's family, against any
person or persons whatsoever, hereby utterly renouncing and ab-
juring any obedience or allegiance unto the person taking upon
himself the style and title of Prince of Wales, in the lifetime of
his father, and who since his death, is said to have assumed the
style and title of King of Great Britain and Ireland, by the
name of Charles the Third ; and to any other person, claiming
or pretending a right to the crown of these realms ; and I do
swear, that I do reject und detest, as unchristian and impious, to
believe that it is lawful to murder or destroy any person or per-
sons whatsoever, for or under pretence of their being heretics ;
and also, that unchristian and impious principle, that no faith is
to be kept with heretics. I further declare, that it is no article
of my faith, and that I do renounce, reject and abjure the
opinion, that princes excommunicated by the Pope and council,
or by any authority of the See of Rome, or by any authority
whatsoever, may be deposed and murdered by their subjects, or
by any person whatsoever ; and I do promise, that I will not
hold, maintain or abet any such opinion, or any other opinion
contrary to what is expressed in this declaration ; and I do de-
clare, that I do not believe that the Pope of Rome, or any other
foreign prince, prelate, state or potentate, hath or ought to have
Dtt. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. '488
any temporal or civil jurisdiction, power, superiority or pre-
eminence, directly or indirectly, within this realm; and I do
solemnly, in the presence of God, and his only Son Jesus Christ
my Redeemer, profess, testify and declare, that I do make this
declaration, and every part thereof, in the plain and ordinary
sense of the words of this oath, without any evasion, equivoca-
tion, or mental reservation whatever, and without any dispensa-
tion already granted by the Pope, or any authority of the See of
Rome, or any person whatever, and without thinking that I am,
or can be acquitted before God or man, or absolved of this de-
claration, or any part thereof, although the Pope, or any other
persons or authority whatsoever shall dispense with, or annul the
same, or declare that it was null and void from the beginning.
So help my God."
[A Copy of the Oath required by the Act of the 33d George 3d,
chapter 21, was delivered in, and read as follows :]
" I, A. B. do hereby declare, That I do profess the Roman
Catholic religion.
"I, A. B. do swear, That I do adjure, condemn, and detest,
as unchristian, and impious, the principle, that it is lawful to
murder, destroy, or anyways injure, any person whatsover, for
or under the pretence of being a heretic ; and I do declare
solemnly, before God, that I believe that no act, in itself unjust,
immoral, or wicked, can ever be justified or excused by or under
pretence or colour, that it was done either for the good of the
church, or in obedience to any ecclesiastical power whatsoever.
I also declare, that it is not an article of the Catholic faith,
neither am I thereby required to believe or profess, that the Pope
is infallible ; or that I am bound to obey any order in its own
nature immoral, though the Pope, or any ecclesiastical power,
should issue or direct such order ; but, on the contrary, I hold,
that it would be sinful in me to pay any respect or obedience
thereto. I further declare, that I do not believe that any sin
whatsoever committed by me, can be forgiven at the mere will of
any Pope, or of any priest, or of any persons whatsoever ; but
that sincere sorrow for past sins, a firm and sincere resolution to
avoid future guilt, and to atone to God, are previous and indis-
pensable requisites to establish a well-founded expectation of
forgiveness ; and that any person who receives absolution, with-
out these previous requisites, so far from obtaining thereby any
remission of his sins, incurs the additional guilt of violating a
sacrament : and I do swear, that I will defend, to the utmost of
my power, the settlement and arrangement of property in this
country, as established by the laws now in being. I do hereby
2 i 2
484 DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED.
disclaim, disavow, and solemnly abjure, any intention to sub-
vert the present church establishment, for the purpose of sub-
stituting a Catholic establishment in its stead : and I do solemnly
swear, that I will not exercise any privilege to which I am or
may become entitled, to disturb and weaken the Protestant reli-
and Protestant government, in this kingdom. So help my
Are you acquainted with the declaration that was published
in Ireland by the Catholic committee in the year 1757, drawn up
by a titular bishop, Dr. O'Keefe ? — I have a recollection that I
have seen it.
Was that a document universally acknowledged and subscribed
to, at the time, by the Catholics ? — There is not the smallest
doubt entertained by any Catholic with regard to it.
That declaration was first published in the year 1757 ? — I think
it was about that time ; that declaration was sent to the See of
Rome, and I believe it was renewed afterwards, when there was
some appearance of a French invasion.
Was it not again put forth in the year 1792, at the time that
petitions were presented to Parliament, for the concessions that
were made at that time ? — I think so.
[A Copy of the Declaration was delivered in, and read as
follows:']
" Whereas certain opinions and principles, inimical to good
order and government, have been attributed to the Catholics,
the existence of which we utterly deny ; and whereas it is at this
time peculiarly necessary to remove such imputations, and to give
the most full and ample satisfaction to our Protestant brethren,
that we hold no principle whatsoever, incompatible with our duty
as men or as subjects, or repugnant to liberty, whether political,
civil, or religious :
" Now we, the Catholics of Ireland, for the removal of all such
imputations, and in deference to the opinions of many respectable
bodies of men, and individuals, among our Protestant brethren,
do hereby, in the face of our country, of all Europe, and before
God, make this our deliberate and solemn declaration :
" 1st. We abjure, disavow, and condemn the opinion that prin-
ces excommunicated by the Pope and council, or by any eccle-
siastical authority whatsoever, may therefore be deposed or mur-
dered by their subjects, or any other persons. We hold such
doctrine in detestation, as wicked and impious ; and we declare,
that we do not believe that either the Pope, with or without a
general council, or any prelate or priest, or any ecclesiastical
power whatsoever, can absolve the subjects of this kingdom, or
DR. MAGAURrtf EXAMINED. 485
any of them, from their allegiance to His Majesty King George
the Third, who is, by authority of Parliament, the lawful King
of this realm.
" 2d. We abjure, condemn, and detest, as unchristian and im-
pious, the principle, that it is lawful to murder, destroy, or any-
ways injure, any person whatsoever, for or under the pretence of
being heretics ; and we declare solemnly, before God, that we
believe that no act, in itself unjust, immoral, or wicked, can ever
be justified or excused by or under pretence or colour that it was
done either for the good of the church, or in obedience to any
ecclesiastical power whatsoever.
" 3d. We further declare, that we hold it as an unchristian
and impious principle, that no faith is to be kept with heretics :
this doctrine we detest and reprobate, not only as contrary to our
religion, but as destructive of morality, of society, and even of
common honesty ; and it is our firm belief, that an oath made to
any person not of the Catholic religion, is equally binding as if it
were made to any Catholic whatsoever.
" 4th. We have been charged with holding, as an article of our
belief, that the Pope, with or without the authority of a general
council, or that certain ecclesiastical powers can acquit and ab-
solve us before God from our oath of allegiance, or even from
the just oaths and contracts entered into between man and man :
" Now we do utterly renounce, abjure, and deny, that we hold
or maintain any such belief, as being contrary to the peace and
happiness of society, inconsistent with morality, and above all
repugnant to the true spirit of the Catholic religion.
" 5th. We do further declare, that we do not believe that the
Pope of Rome, or any other prince, prelate, state, or potentate,
hath or ought to have any temporal or civil jurisdiction, power,
superiority, or pre-eminence, directly or indirectly, within this
realm.
" 6th. After what we have renounced, it is immaterial, in a politi.
cal light, what may be our opinion or faith in other points respect-
ing the Pope ; however, for greater satisfaction, we declare that it is
not an article of the Catholic faith, neither are we thereby required
to believe or profess, that the Pope is infallible, or that we are
bound to obey any order in its own nature immoral, though the
Pope or any other ecclesiastical power should issue or direct such
order, but on the contrary we hold, that it would be sinful in us
to pay any respect or obedience thereto.
"7th. We further declare, that we do not believe that any sin
whatsoever committed by us, can be forgiven at the mere will of
any Pope, or of any priest, or of any person or persons whatso-
ever, but that sincere sorrow for past sins, a firm and sincere re-
solution, as far as may be in our power, to restore our neighbours'
486 DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED.
property or character, if we have trespassed OR, or unjustly in-
jured either, a sincere resolution to avoid future guilt, and to
atone to God, are previous and indispensible requisites to esta*
blish a well-founded expectation of forgiveness; and that any
person who receives absolution without these previous requisites,
so far from obtaining thereby any remission of his sins, incurs the
additional guilt of violating the sacrament.
" 8th. We do hereby solemnly disclaim, and for ever renounce
all interest in, and title to all forfeited lands resulting from any
rights, or supposed rights of our ancestors, or any claim, title, or
interest therein ; nor do we admit any title as a foundation of
right, which is not established and acknowledged by the laws of
the realm as they now stand ; we desire further, that whenever ,
the patriotism, liberty, and justice of our countrymen shall re-
store to us a participation in the elective franchise, no Catholic
shall be permitted to vote at any election for members to serve in
Parliament, until he shah1 previously take an oath to defend, to
the utmost of his power, the arrangement of property in this
country, as established by the different acts of attainder and set-
tlement.
e( 9th. It has been objected to us, that we wish to subvert the
present church establishment, for the purpose of substituting a
Catholic establishment in its stead : now we do hereby disclaim,
disavow, and solemnly abjure any such intention ; and further, if
we shall be admitted into any share of the constitution, by our
being restored to the right of elective franchise, we are ready, in
the most solemn manner, to declare that we will not exercise that
privilege to disturb and weaken the Protestant religion, or Pro-
testant government in this country."
What counties are under your jurisdiction in your diocese ?— *
There is a part of seven counties ; it is principally Leitrim and
Longford ; but there is a part of the county of Roscommon, a
small part of the county of Sligo, and other counties.
In which of those counties do you reside ? — I reside in the
county of Longford.
In the discharge of your duties, and in the discharge of the
duties of the inferior clergy who are under your direction, do you
consider it right to co-operate with the magistrates of the country
in endeavouring to maintain the tranquillity of the country, and
to secure obedience to the laws ? — Indeed I always wished to do
so, and I have always been tolerably successful in having it so ;
I always believed it a matter of the utmost necessity ; and when-
ever I have found in the diocese committed to my care, that there
was not that kind of harmony between the magistrates and the
Roman Catholic clergy, I think, in the same proportion, in gene-
ral, that neighbourhood was not tranquil.
DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED: 48*7
In the discharge of that portion of your duty to which you
have referred, have you met with the active and zealous co-ope-
ration of the magistrates of the country ? — Indeed I have, in
many instances. I have met with it in the county of Fermanagh,
where I was first placed, and have met it in the county of Lei-
trim ; and I met it in the county of Longford, and no part of the
country I ever was placed in, was disturbed. I was fortunate in
that respect, for it is scarcely possible to describe the effect it pro«
duces on the public mind, when they see men of both religions,
in public situations, go hand in hand with each other.
Have you any doubt, from the communications that you have
received from the magistrates of the county of Longford, and
more particularly from Lord Forbes, that the magistracy of the
county of Longford attribute the tranquillity of the county, in a
very considerable degree, to the cordial co-operation which exists
between the justices of the peace and the Roman Catholic clergy?
— I do believe it is a general feeling. I think I get more credit
myself perhaps than I deserve, but it is a general feeling ; much
credit is due to Lord Forbes.
Is there, generally speaking, a cordial communication between
the two sects, in the county of Longford ? — There is no open hos-
tility, but there is a something of a heat of mind or an irritation,
but there is nothing of a violent nature.
To what causes do you attribute this degree of irritation and
distrust, that you have described to exist? — I think the party
feelings of Orangemen and Ribbonmen, and the question of Ca-
tholic Emancipation, with the feelings of hope on one side, ac-
companied with some fear perhaps, and apprehension on the other
side, altogether ; there are two parties, and they are kept at that
kind of distance, arising from a variety of causes, that I am not
able to describe.
Having alluded to Catholic Emancipation, do you conceive that
a strong feeling of anxiety upon that subject, exists amongst the
bulk of the peasantry ? — I think very strong.
How do you consider that laws, which operate practically as
an exclusion only of the higher orders, are considered by the
lower orders as a grievance to them ? — I know if they were asked
what emancipation meant, they perhaps would not be able to de-
fine it ; but they have a feeling that they are belonging to an ex-*
eluded cast, and that they are not treated like the other subjects ;
that there is something wrong with them, and they are very
anxious to be relieved from this kind of slavery, which they are
not able to explain.
Do you consider that it produces any distrust of the law in its
own nature, or of the administration of the law ? — I think a great
DR. MAGAUK1N EXAMINED.
deal of the misfortunes of Ireland arise from the disrespect of the
lower orders to the laws. They are of opinion, that the laws
were not made for their protection ; they know no parts of them,
except the penal and the punishing parts.
Have they any recollection, either by tradition or otherwise, of
the former state of the penal laws in Ireland ? — I cannot exactly
tell; except that I believe in their little meetings on winter nights,
they have amongst themselves many traditionary stories regard-
ing the sufferings of their ancestors.
In point of fact, do you know any spots in the different parts
of Ireland with which you are acquainted, which are considered
as peculiarly holy ; where, during the time of the ancient perse-
cutions for religion, masses were celebrated and priests took re-
fuge ? — I think I do, at least so far as I have heard those tradi-
tionary reports. They tell, that the priests withdrew to moun-
tains and retired parts, and the people flocked after them ; and
there is a kind of veneration to those spots, to this day continued.
Can you name any of those particular spots ? — I do believe I
have known some of them. I do not know any particular place
by name.
Having stated, that the existing disabilities produce some de-
gree of distrust in the mind of Catholics towards the administra-
tion of the law, do you consider that those existing disabilities
produce any and what effect, upon the disposition of Protestants
towards their Catholic brethren ? — I think they are in as great
distrust, and in as great a state of fever in many instances, and
perhaps others ; for instance, in the beginning of the year 1825,
I remonstrated with some on the folly of entertaining such a state
of fearfulness and distrust.
On whose part was the fearfulness ? — On the part of some Pro-
testants in the neighbourhood ; so much so, that one gentleman
told myself, that he locked his doors at four o'clock, and did not
permit any one to leave his house till the following morning.
At what time was this ? — About Christmas last, commencing
the year 1825.
Was that connected with any peculiar report? — I believe it
was connected with unfounded reports ; I have known gentlemen
in my neighbourhood that absolutely quitted their houses, and
came to reside in Dublin under that state of feeling.
Will you explain to the Committee what the circumstances were
which excited this alarm, or what the immediate cause of appre-
hension was ? — Certain idle mischievous reports, I believe, that
are sent forth through the country, exciting the fears and alarms,
both of the one party and the other ; one report was, that all the
Protestants were to be murdered on Christmas-eve ; another, on
DR. MAGAUKIN EXAMINED. 489
the eve of New-year's day ; those reports were circulated by a set
of designing individuals, to keep alive this kind of alarm, this
kind of fearfulness between parties ; I believe it was done some-
times from design.
Were those fears excited by the circumstances of the circula-
tion of the prophecies 1 — I think they were in a great degree.
Were those fears felt by all the Protestant gentry, or were there
exceptions ? — There were not among all, I think ; they were par-
ticularly among those who were in the habit of reading, exclu-
sively, newspapers of a party spirit ; the people that were in the
habit of reading those newspapers, and no other ; and having
their minds filled with them, and in the habit of receiving com-
munications from a lower description of designing individuals;
those were the persons that were most subject to such alarm.
What description of persons do you allude to, when you state
they received communications from a lower class of persons ? — I
mean some of the yeomanry of the country.
The Protestant yeomanry ? — The Protestant yeomanry.
Are the yeomanry of Longford exclusively Protestant ? — In-
deed I think they are nearly so.
Are they supposed to be Orangemen ? — They are supposed to
be Orangemen.
Amongst the Protestants who do not participate in these alarms,
were there many of the most active and influential magistrates of
the country ? — Some of them ; and some of those that were under
those apprehensions were good and kind men; but they per-
mitted themselves, from timidity, to labour under those appre-
hensions.
Can you state, whether the precautions, which you have de-
scribed to have been taken in other houses, were taken at Castle
Forbes ? — Indeed they were not ; Lord Forbes would not have
any hesitation or fear to leave his doors open ; that was the case
with others in the same county.
When you allude to newspapers which gave currency to those
impressions of alarm, what papers do you allude to ? — I mean the
Mail and the Star, violent party papers.
Do not you allude to another paper, which contains food of an
opposite description ? — There are others, I believe, of an opposite
description.
What papers are those ? — There is the Morning Register, and
other papers.
The Dublin Evening Post ? — I do not think the Dublin Even-
ing Post is a violent paper.
Have those persons who left their homes, at the time it was
given out that there would be a massacre of Protestants at a par-
ticular period, since that period returned to their respective homes I
490 DR. MAGAtlRIN EXAMINED
— There are some of them who, I think, have not returned ; but
not, perhaps, from any fearfulness of returning ; but that they do
not find it then convenient.
Then the alarm is allayed ? — So far, yes.
Does that alarm arise from the same cause ; namely, an appre-
hension of the murder of the Protestants? — No.
from what does it arise ? — I believe from designing indivi-
duals scattered all over the country, to keep still alive this kind
of party feeling between Protestants and Catholics.
By whom do you think they are scattered ? — It is impossible
to know ; it is not easy to fasten the charge on any individual,
but there are such individuals.
How do you think they are paid ; what is your reason for
thinking they are employed at all ? — I have heard of such mis-
creants ranging through the country, exciting the Catholics
against the Orangemen, and the Orangemen against the Catholics.
Have any people of that description been arrested ? — Not that
I have heard of.
In no one instance has there been an arrest ? — No that I heard
of.
Has there been any instance, in which there has been clear
proof brought before, of the same individual that appeared at one
chapel having subsequently appeared at another chapel ? — There
was no proof.
Were you a member of the Catholic Association ? — No.
Were the clergy of your diocese ? — I do not believe there were
many, not more than two or three.
Were the addresses, that proceeded from the Catholic Asso-
ciation, distributed in your diocese ?— They were sent to my
diocese.
Was not the rent collected in your diocese ? — In some degree
it was.
Do not you think, that the collection of that rent, and the dis-
tribution of addresses from the Roman Catholic Association, might
partly account for the alarm that was felt by the Protestants ? —
1 dare say it might *.
What councils are admitted as of force in Ireland at present ? —
The Council of Trent is the last council.
Are the decrees of the Council of Trent in force in Ireland at
present ? — For the most part, they are.
What power is there in Ireland to reject any part of the de-
crees of the Council of Trent ? — There were certain points of dis-
cipline, which were not to become obligatory till promulged and
* In consequence of Dr. Magaurin's examination having followed that of the
other Catholic bishops, a great part of his evidence is necessarily a repetition of
what was stated by them, and has therefore been omitted in this volume.
DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED. 491
received. In some parts of Ireland, these were not received, such
as the law of clandestine marriages.
Are not all the important decrees of the Council of Trent en-
forced in Ireland ? — They are.
Are the decrees of the Council of Lateran enforced in Ireland ?
T I am not aware what parts you refer to.
If a person is refused the Sacrament, does that imply that he is
refused absolution ? — There is no instance of giving the one, and
refusing the other.
Supposing an individual has not paid his assessment for a cha-
pel, would there be any power on the part of the bishop or the
priest, to withhold from him the Sacraments ? — No power, for
any pecuniary consideration.
Then if the Committee should find a letter issued by a vicat
capitular in Ireland, to this effect ; " Reverend Sir, I enjoin you
again not to administer any Sacrament, publicly or privately, to
any person, or any one of his family, who shall not have pre-
viously paid the full amount of both taxes ; nor any of the rites of
churching women, blessing of clay, or celebrating mass for them,
under pain of suspension, to be incurred by the fact ;" If such
an order as that were issued to a priest, do not you think he
would be compelled to obey it ? — I do not think he should obey
it. I do not think such an order should be issued. I know the
printed regulations in my diocese are, that neither marriages or
baptisms are to be refused on account of money. We have no
civil means of enforcing the payment of money ; and sometimes,
perhaps, the churching of women, which is not a matter of abso-
lute necessity, may be threatened to be postponed, in order to
obtain this money for the support of a chapel or of a school ; but
a clergyman would be very criminal, if he refused absolution for
any such consideration.
What is the ceremony of blessing clay ? — It is on account of
the law not permitting Roman Catholic clergymen to attend the
burial ; that ceremony takes place in the house of the deceased.
It is a ceremony previous to the burial ? — Yes.
What is the state of the chapels in your diocese ? — There are
some of them in a miserable state ; but there is an improvement
within these few years.
Are they not so bad, as to justify great efforts to obtain money
in order to procure decent accommodation ? — They are, in many
instances.
Is the authority of the vicar capitular any other than to ad-
minister the see during a vacancy ? — He is a vicar appointed by
the chapter to administer the see during a vacancy.
Do you concur with those prelates who have stated that they
should see no objection, or inconsistency with the discipline of the
492
Catholic church in Ireland, to restrict the nomination of prelates
absolutely to those who have been postulated from Ireland ? —
Not the smallest objection.
In fact, to make domestic nomination essential to the instit
tion ? — Not the smallest objection.
Should you object, as being inconsistent with the independence
of the Catholic church, to a provision being made by the State
for the bishops and clergy of the Catholic church in Ireland ? —
I do not see any objection as to its independence, but so far as
regards myself, I have no anxiety for it.
You say you see no objection as to the independence of the
church ; do you see any objection upon any other ground ? — I do
believe there are some who would suppose the exertions of the
Catholic clergy might slacken when their support was independ-
ent of the will of the people; but, however, I have not those
apprehensions, because I think, as long as I live, the clergymen
under my care will do their duty.
Does not the necessity of contributing to the support of the
clergy, in many instances, press rather severely upon the popula-
tion ? — No doubt it is so much out of pocket.
And in many instances out of a pocket which contains very
little?— Yes. '
In many instances, then, it must press very severely upon the
population ? — Yes.
You can have no doubt, then, that if there was no objection
to it in point of independence or of discipline, that such an
arrangement must be acceptable to a large body of the Catholic
population in Ireland ? — I think it would, conditionally.
Of course concurrent with Catholic Emancipation ? — I think in
that case it would be acceptable ; I think it would be well re-
ceived ; but without that condition I do not think it would be
received as a boon.
If made concurrent with Catholic Emancipation, or consequent
upon such a measure, and not objected to by the bishops or clergy,
you cannot have a doubt it would be acceptable to the people ? —
I think it would.
In the event of the gift of such a provision being made, con-
current with the grant of Catholic Emancipation, should you see
any objection to the Crown receiving a power of inquiring into
the character and principles of persons postulated for the Catholic
episcopacy, and acting upon such information ? — I would.
Would you think that objection would equally lie against it if
the inquiry was made by a commission consisting of Catholics ? —
I would not like any interference at all on their part, except so
far as regards the clergy of the diocese, over whom the individual
in contemplation is to preside.
DR. MAGAURTN EXAMINED. 493
Should you conceive it objectionable even if the commission
was composed, not only of Catholics, but of Catholic ecclesiastics ?
— That they should report to the Crown the appointment, I have
no objection to it.
That they should report to the Crown the character and prin-
ciples of the individual so appointed ? — Of the individual so ap-
pointed they might report their opinion ; who he is, and their
opinion as to his fitness and loyalty, &c. &c.
You would consider a previous examination as to his qualifi-
cation as inconsistent with the discipline of the church ? — I do
not think it would be consistent.
In the event of a provision being made by the State for the
support of the Roman Catholic church, do you think there would
be any objection in principle to a certificate being required by
the Crown from an ecclesiastical Roman Catholic commission, ap-
pointed by the Crown, of the character, loyalty, principles, and
domestic "nomination of the bishops and clergy, before they
received the stipend which the State gave them? — That is per-
fectly consistent.
You see no kind of objection to such an arrangement ? — Not
the smallest.
Your only objection then is an objection to any interference on
the part of a Protestant State, even though exercised by an eccle-
siastical Roman Catholic tribunal in the appointment itself ? — -
Certainly ; that is all.
Do you think it just on the part of a Protestant State to require
to be assured of the loyalty and irreproachable character of the
Roman Catholic priesthood and hierarchy, before they received a
stipend from the State ? — I think it is perfectly consistent and
perfectly right.
Do you conceive that the payment of the Roman Catholic
hierarchy and clergy by the State would put an end to the com-
plaint at present existing in Ireland, of the support of a double
order of clergy being cast upon the Catholic peasantry ? — I think
it would be a relief to them, and I think in course of time it
would be acceptable enough to them.
Do you conceive that, as far as that relief was felt, it would be
an additional security to the Protestant establishment in Ireland ?
— I think it would.
Have you ever heard expressed in Ireland, or do you yourself
feel any disposition as a Roman Catholic bishop, to interfere with
the temporal authority or property of the Protestant church ? —
Not the slightest ; if! was offered the tithes, I would reject them.
Has it ever been suggested by any individuals amongst the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, or do you yourself feel any desire
that the Roman Catholic bishops should in any event be admitted
494 DR. MAGAUKIN EXAMINED.
into the House of Lords ? — Never ; I never had such an idea,
and it never entered the mind of any ecclesiastic.
You never heard that the admission of the Catholic bishops
into the House of Lords has entered into the contemplation of
any of the leading Lay-catholics in Ireland ? — It never entered
their minds. We have no ambition for those matters ; our great
anxiety is for the peace and welfare of the country, and we are
ready to make any sacrifices for the sake of promoting that object
which is consistent with the discipline of the church.
The Committee would wish to inquire, whether you see any
objection on the part of the clergy to the relinquishment of all
those dues and fees which they now receive for the performance
of religious rites, or for their own support, in the event of their
receiving an adequate provision from the State ? — There are some
which they might not be willing to relinquish ; for instance, per-
quisites on marriages, and baptisms and funerals ; but the rule I
would observe myself on such an event taking place would be, to
have a meeting of the clergy to regulate " thus far you shall go
and no farther ;" I would conceive it my duty to do so.
There is not, however, in the character of those fees or obliga-
tions any thing so essential, as to make it impossible or difficult
for the clergy to relinquish them ? — Nothing at all ; I believe in
all churches they have generally what is called small dues.
There is nothing in the oblation which adds either to the sanc-
tity or force of any religious act performed ? — No.
You think there would be no difficulty in relinquishing alto-
gether such fees ? — No difficulty, as far as regards discipline.
Do not those fees in many places form the principal portion of
the income of the Catholic clergyman ? — Mostly.
What is the marriage fee in your diocese ? — They are not
allowed to charge more than three crowns.
Are you aware, that in some Catholic countries, in France for
instance, the holidays have been diminished to four ? — I did hear
they were diminished.
They were so diminished by permissive power granted from
Rome ? — I presume so.
Is it not the custom of the people of Ireland to indulge in
great licentiousness on those days ? — It is so, I fear ; and on
Sundays too.
In fact they almost cease to observe them religiously ? — They
cease to keep them according to the spirit of them when they
violate the rules prescribed.
You were asked a question on the subject of the state of the
chapels in your diocese, are the chapels generally in a good state,
or otherwise ? — Some of them are, but the others are miserable
enough.
DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED, 495
When you answer that they are in a good state, do you mean
that the buildings are in good repair, or that they are commen-
surate to the wants of the people ? — They are, some of them, in a
respectable situation, so far as regards the building outside ; they
are not so decently finished inside as I could wish.
Are there many places within your diocese where the chapels
are entirely inadequate to the number of the congregation ? — I
think in general all are so.
Will you describe what occurs in such cases, or how the popu-
lation can attend divine worship ? — The only remedy we can
adopt in order to avoid the awkwardness of remaining outside, is
to increase the number of clergymen. At the chapel at Ballima-
hon, I attend every morning at eight o'clock, on Sundays, inva-
riably, arid my curate attends at ten and at twelve afterwards,
and there is a large congregation each time.
Are there other places within your diocese where service is
celebrated three times ? — Yes, there are.
Are there any instances where it is celebrated more than three
times ? — I think not.
Are those three services on the Sunday entirely owing to the
number of the congregation and the inadequacy of the means
of receiving them, or at all those parishes would not two
services be celebrated on Sunday ? — Not always two, in case
where there are two chapels and only one clergyman.
Are there any instances in which the congregation are obliged
to kneel down in the open air ? — It does occur in many instances
where there is only one mass,
Is there any endowment in any part of your diocese for the sup-
port of the parochial clergy, or is there any house for the resi-
dence of any of them in any instance ? — There are a few instances
since I came into the diocese where they have built parochial
houses.
In such instances has the house been built at the expense of
the Catholic clergyman, or by a contribution from the parish ? —
Principally by the clergyman, and partly by contribution.
Will that house, in that case, be the property of his successors ?
—So far as regards those with which I am concerned I think it
must, because I have endeavoured always that it should be within
the precincts of the chapel-yard. I have heard of instances
where it has happened that the relation of the deceased refused to
give up possession.
Where the relation of the deceased has claimed as his heir ?— -
Yes.
Do you know any instances where ejectments have been
brought to recover possession of such buildings ? — I have heard
of them,
496
Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee how
your diocese is circumstanced with respect to parochial schools ? —
The school-houses are miserable.
Have you been enabled to do much of late years in the im-
provement of them ? — A good deal ; but want of means leaves us
much still to do.
Have you a general school in each parish ? — There is a general
school, and particular schools in each parish.
How many schools are there in the large parishes ? — I suppose
about five or six in large parishes.
In what sort of buildings are they generally kept ? — Some of
them very wretched ; in the towns they are better.
Are the chapels generally used for the purpose of school-
houses in country parishes ? — In some places they are ; I disap-
prove of it, but sometimes of necessity they are allowed, from
there being no other.
Have many schools been founded or aided under the esta-
blishment in Dublin, within your diocese ? — I do not think there
is one at all, of the Catholic schools under my direction, so
founded or aided.
Will you mention to the Committee how funds are obtained to-
wards those schools that are under your direction ? — Subscrip-
tions from priests, subscriptions from those Catholics that have
some better means, whatever assistance I can afford, and mostly
some stipend from the parents of the children.
Have you also received assistance from Protestant proprietors ?
— I have as often as I have applied to them, and I would have ap-
plied to them more, but I did hope that this session of Parliament
there would be something done for us in that way.
You stated that at one time you had an intention of sending a
nephew of your own to Clongowes ? — I had.
To what school did you send your nephew ? — To Mr. Edge-
worth's school, in the county of Longford.
Your resolution led you to send him to a school kept under the
direction of a Protestant gentleman, in preference to a school kept
by the Jesuits ? — I considered it a fit school, and it was convenient.
Are there any religious distinctions of any kind in the school
which is kept under the superintendence of Mr. Edgeworth ? —
Not the slightest.
It is attended indifferently by Protestants and Catholics ? — By
Protestants and Catholics ; in fact the words Protestant and Ca-
tholic are not only not mentioned, but I think, except from the
division that takes place on Sundays, they do not know what re-
ligion the others are of.
How many young men are there in that establishment ? — Two
hundred and fifty or thereabouts, so far as I have a recollection.
DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED.
497
Does not this arise out of regulations that Mr. Edgeworth has
there adopted, and which totally prevent the possibility of any
spirit of proselytism being manifested ? — I think it is altogether
his own regulation ; and such was my approbation of that school,
in contradistinction to proselyting schools, that I sent my nephew
there, to sanction the one in contradistinction to the others,
Is any religious instruction given at that school ? — On two days
in the week the catechism is taught, in one part of the building,
to the Protestants, and in the other part of the building, to the
Catholics ; and on the Sunday evening, when the one comes from
the church, and the other from the chapel, they assemble for in-
struction.
Would you object to allow the same system of education to be
extended to the lower orders ? — I am as anxious for the education
of the poor of my diocese as any man can be, provided there is
no interference with religion.
Has the system of creating 40s. freeholds with a view to an elec-
tion interest prevailed extensively in your diocese ? — I presume
it has.
Have you witnessed any occasions in which large bodies of the
population have been brought to a sessions town for the purpose
of registering freeholds ? — No, I have not witnessed ; I never at-
tended such.
You have not happened to be present at registries ? — No.
Have you seen large bodies of freeholders coming in to be re-
gistered, or returning from having registered ? — I have.
Can you describe the general appearance of that class of indi-
viduals ? — Wretched, in many instances.
Do you conceive that class generally to consist of persons pos-
sessing, in the real sense of the law, a freehold of 40s. value ? —
I rather think they do ; if they were to dispose of their freeholds,
they would generally get 40s. ; but in many instances I do not
think they are worth it.
Are they not in a state of entire dependance upon the landlords
in general ? — -They are.
Is that owing to the lower class of occupying tenant being ge-
nerally in arrear for rent, or is it owing to other circumstances of
his situation giving the landlord a powerful influence over him ?
— I suppose both.
£ Does the system of joint tenancy prevail much in the part of
the country with which you are acquainted ? — I think it does ; but
I think it is doing away a good deal.
Have you ever heard of a candidate canvassing the 40s. free-
holders ? — Yes ; I have.
In frequent instances? — In some instances,
2 K
498 DR. MAGAURIN EXAMINED.
Against their landlord ? — Against their landlord.
Do you mean without having obtained permission from the pro-
prietor ? — I think in some instances without his consent ; but I
think it is a matter of etiquette in general not to do so.
In point of fact, do you believe that the general class of 40s.
freeholders in those counties exercise the right of franchise inde-
pendent of, or at the absolute dictation of, the person under whom
they derive their leases ? — I think, in general, they go along with
their landlords ; but in some instances they do not.
What is the general practice ? — I think generally they do.
Have you any doubt that, generally speaking, the tenants of
an estate vote with the proprietor of the soil ? — I know some in-
stances where they did not, but I think in general they do.
Have you the least doubt that they are driven in to vote with-
out any consultation of them or of their disposition ? — I have not.
I think, in general, when they are called upon, they go along
•with their landlords without ever reflecting.
Have you the least doubt that they are called upon to vote
without ever consulting them as to what their own disposition is,
or informing them how their vote is to be given till they appear
at the poll ? — I think that is the practice in general.
Do you think that that class of persons would feel injured or
benefited, or that they would have much public feeling of any
sort, upon that franchise being disallowed ?— I think each indivi-
dual would feel no loss, but I think there would be a degree of
dissatisfaction among the body at large.
Can you say from what cause or principle that would arise ? —
They would conceive it was taking away so much from them, and
there would not be wanting individuals who, from design, would
be stirring up their minds to think so.
But if the great majority of the freeholders, such as you have
described, are brought up to the poll, not only without any con-
sultation of what their disposition is, but without any information
even of the name of the candidate for whom they are to vote, till
they are produced upon the hustings, do you think that such per-
sons would feel that they were deprived of any political privilege ?
—They generally act with their landlord ; they have the power
of acting otherwise.
Will you state what the result of their acting otherwise would
be upon the tenantry of any large property within your know-
ledge ? — I dare say to incur the dissatisfaction of the landlord,
and if they owed arrears of rent to press them for it.
Do you not think that perjury is committed to a very great ex-
tent in consequence of this system ?— I do.
Both upon registries and upon elections ? — Yes.
DR. MAGAUUIN EXAMINED. 499
Do you not think that any alteration of the law, which was to
reform this system, would in itself produce a great improvement
in the morality of the people ? — I hope so.
You cannot doubt that the present system demoralizes them
extremely ? — I think it does.
Have you any doubt that a system under which perjury pre-
vails to the extent you have admitted must of itself demoralize
the country ? — Indeed I think it is a demoralizing system.
The great mass of the 40s. freeholders in the part of Ireland
with which you are acquainted are Catholics, are they not ? —
GeneraUy.
Do you not conceive the effect of altering the franchise, and
striking off the 40s. votes, as it is called, would be to impress
upon the Catholic population at large a feeling that their religion
had sustained a loss ? — No doubt.
Would not the effect of it be that they would feel that the Ca-
tholic influence of Ireland was diminished ? — I think so.
Would not that be a great source of dissatisfaction that would
be felt at any attempt to alter the 40s. franchise ? — There would
be that dissatisfaction.
If the alteration of the franchise was accompanied by a mea-
sure advantageous to the Catholic religion, as by passing what
is called Catholic Emancipation, do you not think that the sa-
tisfaction created by the one measure would outweigh the dis-
satisfaction excited by the other ? — Indeed I rather think so ; I
think the one would be swallowed up in the consideration of the
other.
Have you then any doubt that the Catholics, generally speak-
ing, would be more gratified at the removal of what they consider
a stigma upon their religion, than they would feel apprehensive
at their deprivation of the 40s. franchise, such as you have de-
scribed ? — I think so.
2 K
501
EVIDENCE
TAKEN BEFORE
THE COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
Die Merciirii, 2° Martii, 1825.
THE LORD PRESIDENT IN THE CHAIR.
Anthony Richard Blake, Esquire, is called in, and examined
as follows : *
You are Chief Remembrancer of the Exchequer in Ireland?
— I am.
Are you of opinion that the diffusion of education in Ire-
land, and the improvement of the condition of the people,
must necessarily lead them to feel more strongly the situation
in which they are placed, under the civil disabilities under
which they now labour ? — I certainly think so ; I think that is
the tendency of the law ; just as a man advances in society
the law checks his course, and thus rendering him discontented,
renders his influence the means of inflaming all within its
reach.
Do you think the people are generally aware of the extent
to which offices are open to them in Ireland ? — I think the
people consider that there is in the law a spirit of hostility
to them and their religion.
Are there not a great many offices or situations open to the
Roman Catholics by law, from which nevertheless they are
generally practically excluded by the spirit which prevails in
different parts of the country ? — I cannot speak much of the
interior of the country, with respect to those offices which
are of a local nature, and disposed of by what may be consi-
dered local authorities. The Roman Catholics have certainly
been eligible to the office of assistant barrister for a number
of years ; but until lately no Roman Catholic was appointed to
it. I would take the liberty, however, of adding, that there
were not formerly amongst the Roman Catholics so many can-
didates for promotion whose claims were grounded on station
in their profession, as at present ; because every year, in some
* A great portion of the evidence given by Mr. Blake before the Committee of
the House of Lords, being, necessarily, a repetition of that which he gave before;
the {louse of Commons, it has been pmitted in this volume.
502 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
degree, adds to the number of Roman Catholic barristers, and
adds to the qualifications of those already at the Bar.
Do you think the feeling you have described general among
the Catholics at present ? — So far as my opinion goes, it cer-
tainly is.
That, without understanding precisely the question, there is
a general feeling that the law, as it stands at present, is in
hostility to them and to their religion? — They consider that
the Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ireland are by law
divided into two nations ; a dominant and an inferior nation.
They feel that they are of the inferior nation; and this sense
of inferiority is kept in a state of perpetual inflammation by
the constant discussion of the Catholic Question.
You think that is generally felt among all ranks of the
Roman Catholics ? — I believe it to be so. I have, on these
cursory visits to which I have alluded, occasionally spoken to
the lower orders of the people, and I found great eagerness in
their minds in regard to what they called the emancipation.
Do you conceive that they annex to the idea of emancipation
the idea of the re-establishment of the Roman Catholic church
in Ireland ? — I do not think they do. I think they have a con-
fused notion in their minds, that they do not stand on an
equal footing with the Protestants.
Do you think that they mean by emancipation, that the
Roman Catholics should be rather uppermost than the Pro-
testants ? — I think not. I recollect asking a peasant what he
meant by emancipation ; his answer to me was, I should like
to vote "for your honour to go into parliament, or to see you
a judge.
By emancipation they mean equality? — They mean equa-
lity; a man to have equal rights with the Protestant. I re-
collect last year, when discussions took place with reference
to the Catholics of England, there was something said of the
danger of allowing Roman Catholics to sit upon the Bench, to
be mixed with Protestants in the administration of justice ; it
is quite impossible for any person, who was not in Ireland at
the time, to conceive the feeling that this created amongst the
Roman Catholics. They derived an argument from it, that
they could not be secure if the Bench was exclusively Pro-
testant; they asked, " If you think you would not be secure if
there were any Catholics on the Bench, how can we be secure
when none but Protestants are there ?"
Do you think, if they were to obtain what is called emanci-
.pation, they would be content without the restoration of the
church revenues to the Catholic clergy? — I am perfectly sa-
tisfied that they would rather deprecate that restoration than
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 503
wish for it. I think they would be very glad to get rid of
tithes altogether, but that they would not wish to see them
transferred to their own clergy ; they would rather the Ro-
man Catholic clergy should remain in their present state.
Do you speak of that as the opinion of the peasantry, or
persons above them ? — I speak of it as the opinion of the pea-
santry. They complain now of the dues which they have to
pay to the Roman Catholic clergy ; they sometimes consider
them too well off. One of the complaints of the Ribbon-men,
in the year 1820, was of the amount of the dues they had to
pay to their own clergy ; they complained of them in common
with the tithes.
Do you think that an increase can take place in the wealth
and property of the people, without increasing the feelings of
discontent and [of dissatisfaction created by the present state
of the law ? — 1 think the necessary tendency of an increase
of wealth and knowledge at present among the Roman Ca-
tholics is the increase of discontent. The injurious operation
of the disabling statutes is particularly felt by the men of pro-
perty and education. Therefore, in proportion as men of that
description increase, discontent must increase, and this not in
the particular class only, but through the whole body, because
such men constitute the influential part of society, and natu-
rally give to the body to which they belong its general spirit
and tone.
Is not the present unequal state of the law, with regard to
Catholics and Protestants, felt to be injurious to individuals,
and galling to all ? — I should apprehend there could be no
doubt that it is so felt.
What practical effect do you conceive to be produced on the
administration of justice in Ireland, by the unequal privi-
leges of Catholics and Protestants ? — I conscientiously believe,
that the administration of justice in the superior courts in
Ireland, with which alone I am acquainted, is as pure and
honest as the administration of justice in any part of the world;
that is my honest and conscientious opinion. But the state of
the law with respect to the Roman Catholics, makes the mul-
titude regard the general administration of justice with distrust.
Have you any information whether the Catholics have in-
creased greatly in the acquisition of landed property of late
years ? — Yes, I have ; upon several sales which have lately
taken place in Ireland, Catholics have been the purchasers.
Do you not think it would be necessary to accompany a
measure of state provision for Roman Catholic priests with
some legal provision, which should make it illegal, perhaps
prohibit, under a penalty, the exaction of some of the fees from
504 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
which the maintenance of the priests is now derived ? — I should
think the object might be attained by a wise administration of
the regium donum ; which I would prefer to legal enactments.
Do you apprehend that the pope is in the habit of taking any
measure for the purpose of obtaining any knowledge of the
individuals recommended to him for bishops? — I apprehend
not, otherwise than through a communication with the Irish
Bishops.
Subsequent to such recommendation? — In some instances
subsequent to such recommendation, that is, where there are
rival recommendations ; I apprehend not otherwise.
Do you really think that an arrangement for the payment of
the clergy, would give anything like complete satisfaction to the
Roman Catholic hierarchy ? — I should feel great difficulty in
saying that any arrangement would give complete satisfaction
to any body of men ; but, speaking comparatively, I should
say it would give to them very great satisfaction ; as much sa-
tisfaction as the state, in any general arrangement, can in any
case well hope to give.
And would probably produce content ? — I am satisfied that
it would.
Are you enabled to state, whether since the regium donum
has been established with respect to the Presbyterians, it has
been found expedient to withhold it in any particular instances ?
— I have understood in none.
Are you aware of any communication carried on between the
Roman Catholics of Ireland and the pope, and the nature of it ?
— I am not aware of any communication being carried on, except
between the bishops and the pope; the nature of that, I believe,
is purely ecclesiastical. I have heard the bishops declare, and
have been solemnly assured by them, that they are forbidden
to touch upon any matter of a political nature.
Do you believe that communication to be of any considerable
extent ? — I believe not.
That it has reference to mere matters of necessary form ? —
It has a reference to mere matters of necessary form ; the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland are rather jealous of the power of the
pope than otherwise.
Is it not the interest of the Roman Catholic church of Ire-
land to 'have as little to do with the pope as possible, and to
connect themselves as much as possible with the established go-
vernment, the government of the country ? — I think it is.
Can you state whether, with respect to the power of the
parish priest, as to confession and absolution, he does not con-
sider himself bound to secrecy as to what may be communicated
to him by tjie person so confessing ? — I apprehend so.
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 505
Does not that even extend to evidence in a court of justice ?
Certainly.
And to cases of treason ? — To cases of treason ; and the
clergy of the established church, by the canons, are also enjoined
to secrecy. I speak only of what the canons require of them.
I allude to the 113th of the canons of 1616. I have heard the
clergy justify the practice, by stating that persons cannot be
prejudiced by their hearing of a crime having been committed,
or of an intention to commit a crime ; the only effect is, that
they may prevent the intention being acted upon, or, knowing
of a crime, endeavour to turn the heart of the person who had
committed it.
Are you aware whether the pope derives any revenue from
Ireland ? — I really am not ; but I never heard it surmised that
he did.
Is the existence of the Roman Catholic religion in its present
state in Ireland, of the slightest advantage to the pope in any
way ? — In point of feeling, he must be gratified by having so
extensive a body as the Roman Catholics of Ireland in commu-
nion with the church of Rome.
But he derives no temporal advantage ? — I apprehend not.
In stating, that in consequence of the diffusion of education,
and the opening of the professions to Roman Catholics, consi-
derable wealth has flown in upon them, and that they have ex-
pended that wealth much in the purchase of land ; has it fallen
in your way, in the high office you hold, to know whether any
objection is made by Roman Catholics to investing their ac-
quirements in land on Protestant titles ? — Quite the contrary ;
the great object in making out title in Ireland, is to trace it to
a patent from the crown, and most patents were consequent on
forfeiture.
Are you to be understood, that the general mass of Catholics
so purchasing, do now hold under Protestant titles? — Certainly.
Would the raising of the elective qualification materially
diminish^ the influence of the priests over the voters at elections ?
— I think it would; and I think, in every view of it, it is a
measure essential to the peace of Ireland.
Have the goodness to explain the manner in which that
measure would operate ? — I think it would operate beneficially
in various views of it, as connected with political power, as
connected with the subdividing of land, and as connected with
the want of a respectable yeomanry in Ireland. It wouIH ope-
rate usefully, in point of political power, because it would
give extended effect in Ireland, to what I conceive to be a vital
principle of the British constitution, that property and not num-
bers should constitute the basis of political ascendency in the
506 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
state. It would operate to prevent multiplied sub-divisions oi
land, by taking away from landlords the temptation to such
divisions, which the hope of extending political influence
creates ; it would tend to encourage the growth of a respect-
able yeomanry in the country, in the same proportion, and
upon the same principle ; because landlords who wished to
have political influence, and who could only have it through a
respectable class of freeholders, would be induced to promote
the existence of such a class.
To what sum would it be necessary to raise the elective
qualification, in order to effect these objects? — I am rather
clisposed at present to speak with reference to the principle,
than to give a standard for regulating it. My own notion is
rather aristocratical upon the point ; I should be disposed to
carry it as high as 20/. a year. I have stated that in another
place. I have since found, from conversing with many Irish
members, that this was considered too high a qualification ; that
a Wl. qualification would be considered a more proper one to fix
on. In my view of the subject, it is not so material to consider
whether a person should have 10/. a year, or 20/. a year, as it
is to consider the means of securing something like real inde-
pendence ; and if I could have a reasonable certainty, that the
person who was to come forward and represent himself as a
Wl. freeholder, or even perhaps a 51. freeholder, had really an
interest of that description, I should certainly say, that raising it
to 51. might be sufficient ; but my fear is, from experience of
the readiness of persons to swear to 40s. freeholds who have
none, that you might find persons willing to swear to the ex-
tent of 51. ; but I do not think they would be barefaced
enough to come forward and swear to 20£., or even to Wl. To
show why I think they may be thus willing, I would, with
permission of your lordships, state some facts which have come
to my knowledge. Part of rny duty as chief remembrancer of
Ireland is to attend to the accounts of the receivers in whose
hands estates are placed by the court. Their accounts are
passed before me. I have found various instances of arrears
existing upon estates to a very considerable extent. In those
instances, where it was stated to me that the arrears were oc-
casioned by the land having been let at exorbitant rents, I have
directed inquiries to be made, to see whether it would not be
desirable to abate the rent, and to afford some relief with re-
spect to the arrears. On those occasions I have had laid before
me the affidavits of persons of character and of knowledge, to
show me what the real value of the property was ; and I have
generally found that the property really was let at exorbitant
rents, something worse than rack rents, and yet that the peo-
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 507
pie holding at those rents have been induced to swear to 40s.
freeholds.
Your intention would be to extend this arrangement respect-
ing freeholds to Protestants as well as Roman Catholics ? — I
would extend it to all, and if extended to all, coupled with the
settlement of the Catholic Question, I think it would give very
great permanent satisfaction.
What effect do you think it would have upon the Protestant
interest? — I am satisfied that it would not weaken, but
strengthen the Protestant interest in Ireland; and I assure
your lordships, that if I did not think it would have that effect,
if T thought it would go to disturb the Protestant settlement in
Ireland, not one of your lordships would disapprove of it more
heartily than I should. The Protestant church in Ireland rs a
great link in the chain which connects Great Britain and Ireland
together ; and with the security of that connexion, I am satis-
fied the interests of Ireland are essentially identified. Now it
appears to me, that the present state of the law in Ireland is
founded upon an erroneous principle, taken with reference only
to the security of the establishment. By the act of 1793, a
formidable species of political power, the elective franchise
was given to the Roman Catholics, subject to so low a quali-
fication as to vest it in the lowest orders. Capacity for another
species of political power, that exercised through a seat in
parliament, was at the same time withheld from those Roman
Catholics who possess property and intelligence, and in whose
exercise of power most confidence may be placed. Therefore
the proposed measure would not, as it is said, give political
power to the Roman Catholics ; they have it ; but it would
change the nature of the power intrusted to them. It would
take away the power of electing from numbers, and give the
capacity of being elected to property. By doing so, it would
take from the nominal freeholders of 406". a year, who may be
turned against their landlords, or against the Church or the
State, the power of being mischievous, and would give the
Roman Catholic gentleman the power of being useful ; for in
Sroportion as a Roman Catholic gentleman be relieved from his
isabilities, he is rendered capable of being useful to the
Government. The present disabilities are injurious, not to the
Roman Catholics only, but to the State; they disable the State
from availing itself of the services which the Roman Catholic
gentry could render it. One of our great wants in Ireland, is
that of a resident gentry proportioned to the population of the
country ; a want which must be felt particularly with reference
to the purposes of government, as the State has not a gentry
sufficiently extensive to enable it through that gentry so to in-
508 At R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
fluence the great mass of the people, as to rule by the force of
general opinion. Then what is to be thought of a system of
law which renders those of the limited gentry we have, who
profess the religion of the mass of the people, so far as the pur-
poses of government are considered, worse than useless. The
present state of the elective franchise, when acted upon by
religious feelings, is peculiarly dangerous in this, that it habi-
tuates the lower orders to repeated conflicts with their land-
lords, and to conflicts in which they triumph. It is only neces-
sary to hint at the general moral effect of this, in order to shew
how alarming it is.
Do you conceive, speaking as a Roman Catholic, if the elec-
tive franchise were restricted in the way you speak of, it would
be received with thankfulness by Roman Catholics, coupled
with what is called Roman Catholic Emancipation ? — I think it
would.
Have you any opinion how it would be received by the Pro-
testants in the north of Ireland, particularly the Presbyterians ?
— I have an opinion upon that subject, in consequence of some
conversations I have had within the last five days. I was ex-
amined to this point in another place, and some of the members
for Ireland, who are from the north, have spoken to me upon
it since, and spoken to me in a way which shewed they were
disposed to take a favourable view of it.
What effect would the raising of the elective qualification
produce upon the feelings of the persons disfranchised ? — My
belief is, that those people would have no feeling upon the
subject, unless roused by the Roman Catholic leaders ; and I do
not think they would be so roused if the qualification were
raised as part of a comprehensive settlement of the Catholic
Question.
Are not those persons sometimes now placed in the most em-
barrassing situation, between the contending influence of their
landlord and of the Catholic priest? — They are.
Would it be a relief to them to be no longer exposed to that
embarrassment ? — Certainly.
You have stated that the priests have on several occasions
interfered of late in elections ? — I have been so informed, and I
believe the fact.
That has been in cases of contest between candidates, one of
whom was supposed to be favourable to their claims, and the
other adverse? — Certainly ; into those contests only religious
feelings run.
Would not religious feelings enter as much into other con-
tests ; would they not enter into contests between a Roman
Catholic candidate and a Protestant candidate, after the altera-
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 509
tion suggested ? — I think not ; if the Catholic question were set
at rest, I am persuaded that religion would no longer run into
elections to any degree. Political or personal considerations
would govern ; I should vote for the Protestant or Catholic
candidate without reference to his religion, according as I
should be led by political principles or connexions.
May not the Committee infer, from the answer you have
given, that as a Roman Catholic you consider the elective fran-
chise granted to the Roman Catholics in the year 1793, in its
operation, to have been a disadvantage, instead of what it was
conceived at the time, a considerable boon? — It is an advantage
to the Roman Catholics in the way of political power ; I think
it is a disadvantage to the State, as producing very great general
evils.
To the persons themselves, who have exercised that power,
has it not been an evil rather than a good ? — It is an evil rather
than a good where it produces the species of struggle to which
I have adverted, where they are pulled in one way by religious
feelings, and in another by the influence of the landlord ; but
otherwise I should not say, that as to them it was either a good
or an evil.
Has it not increased the misery of their condition by en-
couraging a subdivision of land, and also their moral condition
by encouraging perjury ? — It has certainly most deeply injured
them by encouraging perjury.
Was any feeling excited in Ireland by the rejection of the
Bill proposed last year in favour of the English Roman Catho-
lics?— I think there was ; I think it tended very much to extend
the Catholic Association. I was known myself to have warm
feelings of attachment and gratitude to some persons who took
a part hostile to that Bill, and I was taunted with that very
much.
Do you conceive, that within the last few mouths the feelings
of religious animosities have been increased or diminished ? —
I am sorry to say, that I think religious animosities have been
on the increase.
To what cause do you attribute that increase? — To the
struggle to which the Catholic Question gives rise, and in which
Roman Catholics and a portion of the Protestants have been
engaging from day to day with more and more eagerness.
Do you not think that a more intimate union subsists at pre-
sent amongst all descriptions of Roman Catholics, both in
England and Ireland, than at any former period you remem-
ber ? — The English Roman Catholics used always to act as a
separate body ; they were considered as pursuing, in some
measure, a separate policy. Now I think the English and Irish
510 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
Catholics seem incorporated. I myself, formerly, when at the
bar, took rather an active part in the concerns of the English
Catholics ; since I have been in Ireland, I have not at all done
so.
Do you not attribute that difference, with respect to the
Roman Catholics in England, in some degree to the Catholic
Association ? — I do, and to what took place last year ; I did
perceive a degree of irritation in the body on my return to this
country, which was not here when I left England.
You refer to the rejection of the Bill brought in by Lord
Lansdowne ? — Yes.
Have any measures occurred to you for the relief of the lower
orders in Ireland ? — None. Quieting Ireland I think is a mea-
sure that would relieve all orders and descriptions ; in propor-
tion as Ireland is quieted English capital will get into it ; it is
now getting into it, but not to the extent to which I think it
would if we could only live in peace.
In what manner do you think the benefit, to which you have
just referred, would be most easily and rapidly communicated
to Ireland? — I speak under a bias on the particular question
I have alluded to. My persuasion is, that while that question
remains in the state it is, Ireland will be in a state of distrac-
tion ; there will be a perpetual warfare between Protestants
and Roman Catholics.
Do you not apprehend that the question of a State provision
for the Catholic Clergy, and the question of raising the quali-
fication, are necessarily intimately connected with the question
of admitting them to the enjoyment of equal Civil privileges ? —
I do not think, regard being had to the feelings of the country,
the one could be effected simply or apart from the other. I
think each would assist the other ; and the whole would, I
hope, produce concord in the country.
Might not the reductionof the 40s. freeholders be accomplished,
even separately from the other measures you have named? — The
40?. freeholders now give to the Roman Catholics a very consider-
able degree of political power. They would exchange, I think,
the species of political power they have for another which I
think would be more constitutional ; but if, without giving
them the power which property gives to others, they are told
that they shall not have the power from numbers which they
now have, I think a furious flame would be kindled in the
country.
Would it not appear as the first step in a retrograde course ?
— I think it would touch so materially the power of the active
men of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, as to induce them to
raise a universal cry against it, which I have no doubt they
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 511
would succeed in doing. I have mentioned the subject myself,
and the notion of it has been heard of with horror as a separate
measure.
Would they not conceive, that by losing the 40s. freeholds
as they now stand, unaccompanied by any other measure, they
would lose the best security they now enjoy for the equal ad-
ministration of justice? — The possession of political power is
generally considered as the security which men possess for the
due enjoyment of all their rights, an equal administration of
justice among others. If you were to take away from the 40s.
freeholders the right of voting, you would take away from the
mass of the Roman Catholics of Ireland the great political
power which they now possess ; and in proportion you would
render their civil rights insecure if you did not settle the great
question.
Do they not conceive that the possession of those 40s. free-
holds is one great hold of the present representatives of Ireland
in Parliament ?-— I think they consider it as one great power in
their hands of effecting their great object, a general settlement
of the Catholic question ; and I think that iii the exercise of
that franchise they could find men much more ready and much
more willing, though calling themselves Protestants, to act for
any extravagant objects they might have, than they could
amongst Roman Catholics. I think I know Protestants who
would be disposed to go much further than myself ; they know
that they may be suspected of insincerity, and in order to prove
themselves sincere, may be disposed to go to lengths which
others would not think of going.
In point of fact, you think that a great many of the repre-
. sentatives of Ireland hold their places, as it were, on condition
of supporting the Roman Catholic propositions ? — They hold/as
the representatives of Roman Catholics ; they are elected by
their suffrages, and those suffrages will not be given to people
to enable them to go into Parliament, and then to vote for the
exclusion of their constituents.
According to the tenets of the Roman Catholic church, they
do conceive that it is the one church, that there is no other
church ; if that be so, can any conscientious Roman Catholic,
maintaining that tenet, solemnly pledge himself to maintain a
Protestant ecclesiastical establishment? — I think he might.
Speaking as a Roman Catholic, having I hope a conscience, I
should say I would. At present the law of Ireland requires
every Roman Catholic, in order to qualify for enjoying the
benefits of the Act of 1793, to swear that he will support the
Protestant government, and that he will not countenance any
design to subvert the Protestant establishment, for the purpose
512 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
of substituting a Catholic establishment in its stead ; he also
promises that he will not exercise any privilege to which he is
or may become entitled, in order to disturb the Protestant
establishment within the realm. I swear to support the civil
rights given to the establishment by law. If I lived under the
Grand Turk I should feel myself bound to support all the
civil rights and revenues which the Turkish empire gave to the
Turkish clergy. I am bound by the opinion of the state, and
am not to exercise my own opinion upon the subject. There
were formerly two different classes of Roman Catholics, Cisal-
pines and ultra Montaignes. The ultra Montaignes considered
that, there being but one church, and the Pope being the head
of that church, he might for the benefit of the church, which
was to be considered as the first of all objects, interfere in civil
matters. The Cisalpines always denied any such right in the
church. The Cisalpine doctrine has prevailed at all times in
England ; the statute of provisors and prsemunire prove this.
Have you the same opinion with respect to the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy, that they could conscientiously maintain a Pro-
testant ecclesiastical establishment ? — I think the Roman Catho-
lic clergy would state, that they would not disturb the Protest-
ant establishment ; that they would not attempt to alter it
through any political conspiracy or device.
Do you think that if a state provision were given to the
Roman Catholic clergy, a better description of persons would
be inclined to enter into that office than do now 'I — Persons of
a higher order might probably come into it ; but I think it just
to say this, that I left Dublin this autumn, on a tour connected
with the subject of education, under the impression that the
second order of clergy in Ireland were of a lower description
than I found them to be ; both Mr. Grant, who travelled with
me, and myself, received an impression certainly very favourable
to them. I know most of the bishops, and they are very valu-
able men.
Do you consider that any grant from government, under the
shape of regium donum, would be an addition to the value of
the possessions of the clergy, or a substitute for others, which
they are now grievously exacting from the lower orders ? — I
think it would be a substitute for others, and would give to the
clergy a degree of independence which they have not now ; it
would leave them more at liberty to act on their own good
dispositions and feelings. They are now, in the first place, acted
upon by the passions of their flocks, and sometimes re-acting
upon those passions, they increase and inflame them.
Have you had any opportunity of knowing whether good
has arisen from the act for the composition of tithes ? — I have
A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED. 513
heard in several places of the tithe composition act having been
carried into effect with great advantage to the country.
Do you apprehend that the carrying it generally into effect
would remove the present hostility between the Protestant
clergy and the Roman Catholic occupiers? — I do not think there
is any great hostility between the Protestant clergy and the
Catholic occupiers.
Do you think that the composition act could be amended or
altered in any way, so as to come into more extended and
advantageous operation ? — Perhaps if the act should not come
into general operation, a compulsory clause might be called
for.
Do you think if it could be left to a good- will operation, it
would be preferable / — I would much rather leave it to its
present operation, which appears to me to be giving satisfaction,
and to be extending that satisfaction every day.
Do you think that the better feeling established between a
clergyman and his parishioners, by carrying into effect this com-
position act, will very much facilitate the arrangement of all
subjects of difference between the Catholics and the Protestants ?
— Every thing which tends to produce a cause of content, tends
to produce satisfaction.
Do you not think that this season of general peace, when Ire-
land is deriving great improvement and advantage from the
prosperity from the other parts of the empire, is, of all others,
the most convenient time for carrying into effect a general set-
tlement of all subjects of difference between the two religions ?
— I think it is peculiarly favourable.
Should you not say, from your general knowledge of the
world, and of persons of different opinions upon the Catholic
que3tion, that those opinions are verging to something like com-
promise, and that the question is considered more in a practical
manner now than it ever has been at any former period ? — I have
had communications within the last few months in Ireland with
several of the leading Protestants there, who have been adverse
to the Roman Catholic claims, and I think they seem to be
generally very anxious for a settlement of the subject, provided
it could" be settled on such principles as would afford them due
security for that proprietorship ascendency which belongs to
them ; and of course for the permanence of the Protest an,
establishment.
Is it not, as far as your knowledge goes, generally desired,
by persons of both opinions, that some settlement should take
place, and that things should no longer remain in the state in
which they now are ? — I think that is very strongly the general
feeling. I do think, too, that the Roman Catholics at this mo-
8.L
514 A. R. BLAKE, ESQ. EXAMINED.
ment are more disposed for a compromise than they were at any
former period within my recollection.
What do you mean by a compromise ? — A settlement on such
principles as I have ventured to throw out ; that of raising the
qualification for the franchise, the payment of the clergy, and
some limitation of office. I think an exclusion from some poli-
tical offices would not materially touch their feelings ; that they
would cheerfully submit to it, if the question could be settled in
a way satisfactory to the Protestants. That the Roman Catho-
lics are more desirous of having an amicable settlement than a
triumph.
You mean that the Catholics are now disposed to give the
Protestants substantial securities for the maintenance of the
Protestant establishment, in lieu of that which alone the Pro-
testants now possess in the Protestant oath ? — I think the Ca-
tholics are now disposed to give the Protestants substantial se^
eurities, instead of that which I consider not a source of secu-
rity, but of danger.
Do you not think you have seen rather an increasing disposi-
tion in the Protestants to meet the Catholics in an arrangement
fcf the matter ? — Very much.
Do you think it possible for the other sources of improve-
ment, which are now opening to Ireland, to produce permanent
effect, unless the great question between the two religions
should be speedily and satisfactorily settled ? — I should think
no more than healing a particular sore would go towards re-
moving a cancer.
Do you think that the merely giving emancipation, unattend-
ed with other measures, would give permanent tranquillity ? —
I think concession to the Catholics, coupled with raising the
qualification for the exercise of the elective franchise, and a pro-
Vision for the clergy, would make the mind of Ireland sound,
and would enable the government, by measures of general detail,
by a good system of diet as it were, to give to Ireland the bene-
fit of all the natural advantages which she possesses ; but
without such a settlement, the mind will continue in a state of
disease, and that state of disease will perpetually shew itself in
convulsions.
Do you think that any structure that can be possibly now
raised for the benefit of Ireland, can be effectually permanent,
unless what is called Catholic emancipation were made the
foundation and corner stone ? — No more than a system formed
to preserve general chastity could succeed under a general pro-
hibition of matrimony. The only way of guarding against the
rising ambition of the rising wealth and intelligence of the Roman
Catholics, is by affording it the means of lawful gratification.
515
DieMercurii, 9° Martii, 1825.
The LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair.
Daniel O'Connell, Esq. is called in, and Examined as follows* :
As you have had opportunities of observing the course of the
administration of justice in those parts of Ireland with which
you are acquainted, will you state to the Committee the result
of those observations ? — I have had opportunities of course in
my profession of observing the administration of Justice in those
provinces ; it is hard for me within the limits of a short answer
to speak of the result.
What is your opinion of the administration of justice in the
higher courts ? — I have an extremely high opinion of the admi-
nistration of justice in our Court of King's Bench, as at present
constituted ; I believe it to be as well constituted a tribunal as
can be formed, recollecting that we have fallible men to deal
with ; it is in short admirably well constituted. I am bound to
answer the question, though it is unpleasant. Our Court of
Chancery is not so well, indeed it gives no satisfaction at all;
and the dissatisfaction is perhaps increased, because the present
chancellor succeeded, after, a short interval, the best judge I
ever saw, I mean Lord Redesdale, who gave extreme satisfac-
tion as a judge. I have no hesitation in saying he was the best
judge I have seen during my experience.
Have you observed in the administration of justice in the su-
perior courts, any disposition towards undue partiality? — In
particular instances I have ; but the apprehension of partiality
is more occasioned by the kind of instruments that are used to
bring jury questions to trial, than in the superior judges them-
selves ; the city of Dublin is particularly constituted in that
respect, especially in later times. There has been a great deal
of party spirit ; and no persons can now be sheriffs of Dublin
that do not give a very unequivocal pledge, before their elec-
tion, of taking a particular part in politics hostile to the Roman
Catholics. Those gentlemen have the summoning of all juries,
and the formation of all grand juries ; and whatever may be
the result in individual cases, it leaves a general impression
upon the minds of the Roman Catholics, that their property, or,
in cases of criminal offences, their lives and liberties are not
secure. I know that that prevails to a very great extent ; so
that a Roman Catholic, the most cool and rational amongst
them, and dispassionate as to parties, would rather submit to
* For the reasons before mentioned, in regard to Mr. Blake's evidence, the
greatest part of Mr. O'Counell's evidence before the Committee of the House of
Lords has been omitted.
2 L 2
516 DAVIEL O^CONtfELt, ESQ. EXAMINED.
great wrongs than attempt a trial in Dublin ; and that, as I
said before, originating with the species of persons who are
sheriffs, and of the persons who are at the head of the special
iury lists, for they place at the head of the special jury list the
high corporators. An act of parliament that was proposed in
the Lower House last sessions, would tend certainly, if carried
into effect, to do away a great deal of that evil, in my judg-
ment.
With the exceptions you have stated, have you, as a Roman
Catholic barrister, any other ground of complaint against the
superior courts in Ireland ? — Not without entering into a con-
sideration which I should wish to avoid, of individual appoint-
ments to the bench ; the reeent appointments have given great
satisfaction. The effect of the present system is, that from the
taxing grand juries, Catholics and liberal Protestants in Dublin
are practically, though not legally excluded ; practically against
the law, I may say ; and in all questions of property, the pre-
sent system works infinitely beyond the opportunity of actual
mischief in individual cases, by the kind of spirit of hostility and
apprehension that such a system generates ; and in all cases
where political or religious feelings can be excited as to criminal
matters, leaving the same impression upon the minds of the Ro-
man Catholics.
Do you mean to say that any inequality in the administration
of justice in the superior courts arises altogether from an in-
equality of natural talents and acquired knowledge in the dif-
ferent judges ? — Certainly it does arise in part from the character
of mind of each individual judge. In the Court of King's
Bench, from what I have said already, every thing is done that
any one can wish. I cannot say that of the Court of Common
Pleas or the Exchequer ; though there are individual judges in
both, of whom I think highly, and whom I know to be well
suited to their situations.
Have you any complaint against the administration of the
superior courts at the assizes? — Upon the Munster circuit,
which I have gone for a great number of years, very little. At
Present I find it more advantageous not to go the circuit ; but
have gone for three or four and twenty years the Munster
circuit, scarcely omitting a town. Difference of religion does
not at all affect the administration of justice at the assizes in
the county of Clare, and very little in the county of Limerick ;
and I think 1 should be warranted to say not at all in the county
of Limerick ; in the county of Kerry not at all ; in the city of
Cork very little ; but it does, I think, to some extent in the
county of Cork.
What is your opinion of the administration of justice in Ire-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 517
land by individual magistrates ? — My opinion upon that is cer-
tainly very unfavourable. It has been somewhat improved by
the petty sessions ; but even petty sessions themselves engender
another species of abuse. The magistrates before the petty
sessions were established had, as they have now, two separate
jurisdictions; one was criminal and ministerial, the other was
judicial ; the criminal and ministerial related to the imprison-
ment for the purposes of trial or holding to bail of individuals;
the judicial relates to the decision of tithe and other cases, and
the infliction of pecuniary penalties for offences where the ma-
gistrate is judge and jury altogether under particular sta-
tutes. Now, with respect (to the ministerial acts, the magis-
trates were very much in the habit of receiving written infor-
mations brought to them ready prepared, drawn up in general
by some person who was sometimes a schoolmaster, and in ge-
neral called a hedge-attorney, (that is, did not belong to the
profession, but had the name), who put down the most violent
terms that his knowledge of the law admitted ; introduced fe-
lony and burglary into every case, — feloniously milking a cow,
I recollect; and " feloniously digging potatoes." Then upon
these informations the magistrates were in the habit of commit-
ting persons to gaol upon charges of felony, and they lay in
gaol then until the ensuing assizes ; sometimes three, four, five,
and six months, and sometimes seven, between the Autumn as-
sizes and the ensuing Spring assizes. Then, when the judges
arrived, it turned out that the utmost the charge could be was
a civil trespass, or some light misdemeanor ; but the man had
lain in gaol months. That was a thing of by no means unfre-
quent occurrence. They were also in the habit of turning al-
most all cases with respect to civil rights into criminal offences,
and beginning by inflicting punishment, that is imprisonment ;
by sending an individual, who frequently was least in favour, for
it came to that, to gaol.
Has not that practice been corrected by the appointment of
petty sessions ? — It has been diminished, and diminished to a
considerable extent ; but if the magistrates are disposed to act
wrong, they protect each other, by their being two or three
in petty sessions, more than they would be protected if they
acted individually ; so that some evils are created even in that
way, the remedy being in my humble judgment to get a better
class of magistrates,
Do not you think they are frequently a check upon each
other ? — In some instances ; and in many they are, because three,
or four, or five, of the magistrates cannot well come together,
that there is not some gentleman of superior station and dis-
position amongst them ; and when there is one such, he will
DANIEL 0 CONNELI,, ESQ. EXAMINED.
correct, or at least tend to correct the mischiefs of the others ;
so that I take the petty sessions to be, notwithstanding some
abuses, a very great improvement.
Do you think there has been any one instance of misconduct
so gross as that to which you have alluded in a former answer,
on the part of single magistrates, since the petty sessions have
been introduced ? — I do not ; I think in that respect the petty
sessions are decidedly a great improvement.
Have they tended to give the population a more favourable
opinion of the administration of the law ? — They have ; subject
always to a qualification, that the system has so worked in Ire-
land, that the people conceive that almost every thing done is
done as a matter of favour and not of right ; and as th.ey before
solicited individual magistrates, and I believe used more pow-
erful means than mere solicitation, they now endeavour to so-
licit the magistrates who are to hold the petty sessions ; a kind
of canvass takes place ; for the impression upon the Irish pea-
sant is, that unless he has what they call interest, he has no
chance of success before any tribunal. The superior tribunals
are not open at all to the Irish peasant ; he cannot have money
enough to go to law : the attorney may speculate in taking up
his individual case, but a peasant himself cannot bring the
law into action on his behalf at all, that is quite out of the
question.
Those are all cases arising out of the state of society, both as
to the rich and the poor, and not at all connected with religious
differences ? — I should not go to that extent ; I may be mistaken,
but I think the system itself is so interwoven with religious dis-
tinctions, and its present state so much, if not created, amalga-
mated with it, that it would be impossible for me to say that
they are unconnected ; they do riot in very many individual in-
stances operate as between Catholic and Protestant immediately,
but they do in some, and part of the origin of the system is, in
my opinion, the religious distinction.
Have not many magistrates been lately dismissed in conse-
quence of their misconduct? — There has been lately what is
called a revision of the magistracy. Many bad magistrates
have been certainly excluded. In particular counties the exclu-
sion ran more according to religion than misconduct ; and in
the county of Cork, almost every Catholic magistrate was struck
out. I think, but I may be mistaken as to number, eighteen
out of twenty-one.
Have not a great number been restored ? — A great number
have been restored ; a great majority have since been restored.
On what ground do you conceive they were dismissed in the
first instance ? — Of course, representations to Lord Manners by
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
the persons in whom he had confidence in the county. He could
not have any personal knowledge or personal feelings, as I con-
ceive, upon the subject ; he acted, in my opinion, upon the
opinions of others, and who deceived him upon the subject.
Do you think there is at present a fair proportion of' Roman
Catholics in the commission of the peace in the counties with
which you are acquainted ? — t do not think there is. In the
county of Cork there are some gentlemen who are not restored,
and one in particular, who, I think, ought not ever to have been
struck out, and ought to be restored. In Kerry every thing
has been conducted with the utmost fairness as to theinagis-
tracy. I do not know it, but I believe it to be so, to a great
extent, in the county of Limerick. In the county of Clare
one very excellent Catholic magistrate was struck out, who has
been since restored. I do not know the individuals of that
county further than that, with respect to the subject matter of
the question.
Generally speaking, in those counties, have the Catholics a
fair share of the bench, in proportion to their property 1— r-Iri
Kerry they certainly have ; and I would venture to say, that
the Catholic magistrates are among the most useful magistrates.
In Cork I do not think they have. I should think they have in
Limerick, and also in later times in Clare.
Do you think the Roman Catholics in the part of Ireland to
which you have adverted have any reason to complain of the
conduct of the magistrates in point of partiality in the adminis-
tration of justice ?-^-The system has left just this impression
upon their minds, that in all cases where they are before the
magistrates, it would be better for them to be Protestants than
Catholics ; that they would prefer their being Protestants.
That is the general impression upon their minds? — That is the
general impression upon their minds, produced by the result of
the system infinitely more than by any individual misconduct in
magistrates, but there are, of course, individual instances to
create and continue that impression.
There is no qualification in point of property requisite for
magistrates in Ireland? — Generally there is no qualification, as
far as my limited knowledge of the law extends, for magistrates
in Ireland ; for the performance of particular functions of the
magistracy there are qualifications.
Would it, in your opinion, be an improvement if some quali-
fication of property were established, without which the office
of magistrate could not be held ? — Yes ; I should think that
certainly an improvement.
Do you think that there are persons holding the commission of
DANIEL O CONNELL, ESQ.. EXAMINED.
f
the peace in Ireland, who would not be able to produce any
qualification which the legislature might think fit to require ?—
The impression upon my mind is, that there are still persons in
the commission of the peace who could not qualify at all ; I am
quite sure there are many who could not truly qualify.
The question does not include corporate magistrates ? — No ;
I do not refer to them, there is no question as to the insolvency
of several of those.
You conjecture, that if they were disqualified from want of
property, they would not be a very great loss to the country as
magistrates? — A clear gain, in my opinion.
You do not include all in that? — I should be inclined to say,
that almost all those that could not qualify should be struck out ;
I should be sorry to say all, for I might include persons that I
ought not to include.
As far as your knowledge of Ireland goes, would it be diffi-
cult to find a sufficient number of gentlemen possessed of real
landed property to act as magistrates, if the qualification of
real property was required ? — No ; I think a sufficient number
of magistrates would still be found. I think that it would be
a positive improvement to diminish the number of magistrates
in Ireland ; that is the impression that is upon my mind from
my experience.
Have you formed any judgment what extent of qualification
'would be desirable ? — I should not venture to do that further
than saying, that I think no man ought to be a magistrate who
had not at least five hundred pounds a-year ; but I speak from
a very loose, and therefore on that account very unsatisfactory,
consideration.
Do you think that there are districts in Ireland where you
could not for a great extent find magistrates that would be able
to produce such a qualification ? — There are considerable dis-
tricts ; and wherever particular circumstances arose, the statute
law should certainly leave the Chancellor an opportunity of
making officers of the army magistrates, for their own protec-
tion, and the better to enable them to use the military force
with that effect, and so suddenly as to suppress imminent danger.
I do not therefore include, in speaking of qualification, officers
in the army. In the course of my experience I never knew a
complaint of an officer in the army who was a magistrate ; on
the contrary, the peasants would infinitely prefer* going to
him, rather than to several other magistrates, so far as I have
seen.
Are there many clergymen in the magistracy ? — There were
a very great number ; there are still very many. Before the
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 521
revision, clergymen, down to the poorest curate, were in general
in the commission ; a number of curates were struck out at the
period of the revision.
Is it not necessary at present to have clergymen magistrates
in some parts of Ireland, for want of proper people to act ? —
Certainly it is ; the rectors of the established church are gene-
rally gentlemen of education, and constitute, as a portion of the
magistracy, in individual instances, a most respectable and be-
fitting class.
You have already mentioned, in answer to a question, that you
think there are several large tracts of country which could not
afford a magistrate, according to the qualification you have
just specified ; how do you think that that deficiency could be
supplied? — Though I stated the fact, I think that, supposing
the absence of those magistrates to be the result, it would not
be worse than any evil that would exist from their not being on
the spot ; the only evil that would result from their absence
would be, the travelling a little further, to look for a respect-
able magistrate ; and it seems to me it would be better to give
an Irish peasant the trouble of another half day's, or even day's
journey, than to put an improper magistrate in his immediate
neighbourhood.
Will you state your opinion as to the mode in which the
jurisdiction in the case of tithe is exercised in ecclesiastical and
other courts ? — It can be exercised in ecclesiastical courts only,
and by the magistrates, except in cases of contract. Unless
there be a bargain for the tithes, they cannot sue in the courts
of law for them ; in courts of equity they can sue for them by
bill. There are therefore remaining the two jurisdictions for
tithes, namely, the ecclesiastical courts and courts of equity.
The ecclesiastical courts are considered, and I believe them to
be, an extreme grievance in that respect. The expense of a
citation is eighteen shillings ; the tithes may be but five, or
ten, or fifteen shillings. Frequent adjournments take place ;
and the ecclesiastical courts are situated in one point of an ex-
tensive country ; peasants have frequently to travel 25 and 30
miles, and to go back again with the case untried ; then, when
it comes to be tried, there is no great confidence in the decision —
none at all. Proverbs are applied to it that are very expres-
sive ; and, in short, there is no notion amongst the peasantry of
obtaining justice. The tithe valuator is a man very little
esteemed by the people in general ; his oath is almost conclu-
sive ; and the practice, therefore, of levying tithes through the
ecclesiastical court is very much complained of. There is a
double application of expense ; for when the ecclesiastical court
has pronounced its decree, it issues a sentence, denominated a.
522 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED,
monition, that in itself is inoperative, and is carried into effect
only by a civil bill process to the sessions court, where the pro-
duction of the monition is made conclusive evidence ; but then
the expense first of a monition is incurred, and afterwards the
expense of a civil bill decree to carry it into effect ; and thus
frequently five or six times the amount of the subject matter of
dispute is accumulated in costs, exclusive of the expense of at-
tending the tribunals.
Are you acquainted with the administration of justice by the
magistrates of corporate towns ? — It is extremely complained
of in both civil and criminal matters ; they have civil juris-
dictions, called courts of conscience, that set at defiance cer-
tainly every notion of conscience ; they are considered as the
worst receptacles of perjury ; they are very much complained
of, and I believe most justly complained of. The magistrates
in corporate towns derive very considerable emolument from
that miserable species of litigation, and wherever men derive
emolument from it, it is not to be expected that they will dis-
courage it, and the natural results are understood to have fol-
lowed from the system in Ireland.
What is the limitation of causes in the courts of conscience ?— »
In the different corporations they are different ; 40s. and 51. are
the usual limitations in those courts.
Have the magistrates no other jurisdiction ? — They have, as
magistrates, criminal jurisdictions ; they have all the functions
of magistracy to perform in the criminal jurisdiction ; and in
the corporate towns there are many complaints of their proceed-
ings, and a good deal of apprehension and complaint with respect
to differences of religion.
Does it not often happen that persons who are ex-officio ma-
gistrates in the corporate towns get also the commission of the
peace for the adjoining counties ? — That is the fact ; but I have
known most outrageous instances of misconduct in corporate
magistrates. In the town of Tralee there was a person, a pro-
vost there, who was understood to have a regular scale of money,
for which he bailed any offence whatsoever. There is, I be-
lieve, a jurisdiction lately given to the Chancellor over such
magistrates. There was a criminal information filed against
this gentleman in the court of King's Bench. He had
been five or six years, or more, in the office of provost in the
town, committing every species of nuisance in that way ; bailing
most improperly ; at the rate of ten guineas for a capital felony
of an atrocious kind, five for a minor offence.
Are the magistrates of corporate towns removable by any
process but a criminal information ?— They are certainly not re-
movable by any process but that which arises out of the King's
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 523
Bench, if ever you can reach them where they have been pro-
perly elected ; the criminal information is for punishment, not
for removal.
Supposing a person to have been found guilty on a criminal
information, would he still remain a magistrate? — Yes, in a
corporate town he would ; it would not create a disqualification.
Is he not subject to removal by the Lord Lieutenant after his
election? — In general, by the new rules and regulations, the
previous approval of the Lord Lieutenant is necessary to the
appointment.
So that if he is elected the following year he must come be-
fore the Lord Lieutenant ? — He must, in the towns subject to
the new rules and regulations ; there are about thirty-two re-
gulated by them. The corporation of Tralee is a close body,
and as the provost is not within those new rules and regu-
lations at all, the consequence is, that the individual I have
alluded to was not subject at all to the Lord Lieutenant and the
Privy Council.
Of what date are those rules and regulations ? — They were
attached to the statute of 17th and 18th Charles II. ; they were
made between 1666 and 1672, or thereabout.
Do you know what proportion of the corporate towns in
Ireland are subject to those rules ? — Their number is thirty-
two : I know that all the large corporations in Ireland are
subject to them.
Do you know, in point of fact, whether magistrates in the
towns so circumstanced have frequently been rejected by the
Lord Lieutenant and Council ? — In point of fact, very seldom ;
they interfered, very properly, in a case at Limerick, where a
person was to be re-elected recorder, who had incurred the cen-
sure of one of the houses of legislature.
Do you know what is the number of corporations to which
those rules do riot apply ? — No ; but the number must be con-
siderable. A number of corporations were created in Ireland
in the reign of James I., and close boroughs, for the purpose of
increasing the power of the Crown in the House of Commons ;
and those close boroughs there was no occasion to regulate by
the new rules, for they were rules that could not have borne at
all upon them ; and the object of the new rules and regulations
was to give to the royalists an advantage over the persons who
had acquired property and influence in the towns during the
usurpation.
Generally speaking, have not the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land greater reason to complain of the administration of justice
in corporate towns than elsewhere? — Certainly; much greater
in corporate towns than elsewhere. The superior judges, very
DANIEL O CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
many of them, are unexceptionable personages ; they do not at
allj sanction any maladministration of justice ; as far as* their
authority and influence can go, the Catholics have nothing at all
to complain of.
But in corporate towns you think they have? — In corporate
towns they certainly complain, and I think have reason to com-
plain.
By the existing laws, are Roman Catholics admissible to
corporations in Ireland ? — In all the great corporations regu-
lated by the new rules and regulations they are not admissible
to any thing but the mere function of being freemen ; they
cannot be mayors or sheriffs, or sub-sheriffs, or aldermen, or
common councilmen, or masters or wardens of any particular
guild ; they can hold nothing in those corporations beyond the
mere enjoyment of the franchise of being freemen, and in point
of practice they have been in some of the corporations dis-
appointed even of that.
Have they been frequently disappointed of that franchise to
which they are entitled? — Yes; for the last thirty-two years
Catholics have been admissible to the freedom of the city of
Dublin, and though there is a great degree of wealth in the
hands of Catholics in Dublin, there is not one instance of a
Catholic having obtained his freedom ; they have been as much
excluded as if the law had not been repealed.
Has any considerable portion of that mercantile capital been
applied to the purchase of land ? — A great deal of it ; a Ca-
tholic merchant is always anxious to purchase land.
Does not commercial capital in general find its way more
quickly in Ireland into investments in land than in this and in
other countries? — Certainly much more quickly in Ireland ; it
being a less commercial country, and the respect that is paid to
landed proprietors, being greater, tends naturally to that effect,
and has that effect. And again, it is only recently that the
Catholics have much purchased into the funds ; the system acts
with a kind of revulsion as to every thing connected with the
government ; and they have been desirous therefore of laying
out their capital on land as much as possible.
Have they latterly increased their investments in the funds ?
— They have.
Is there any difference in the value of lands which have ever
been forfeited from that of lands which have not ? — I think
there is a difference practically, though not marked, in such
lands ; I think lands that have been forfeited, and especially
the recent forfeitures of the usurpation, and of the revolution,
bear a higher price ; in practice we consider them, as lawyers,
as better titles, as more marketable^ than lands that were for-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 525
felted at a remoter period ; the patent is found at once, and
that, and the act of settlement, makes a complete title at the
period ; we have then only to deduce the searches from that
period to this ; there is therefore a great facility, in my ex-
perience, and greater readiness, arising from that clearness of
title, in purchasing. There is scarcely any land in Ireland that
has not been forfeited at one time or other ; indeed I believe
almost all Ireland has been forfeited four or five times over.
Did you ever know an instance in which land bore a less
price in the market, in consequence of the simple circumstance
of its having been a forfeiture ? — I never knew it, nor heard of
it, except one individual, whom I may name for this purpose;
Lord Norbury has made that a ground of objection, to cheapen
it, but he never omitted to make the purchase.
Will you state your opinion of the manor courts?— The
manor courts are extremely bad ; it is hardly possible to convey
to the committee an idea of such a grievance as the manor
courts are : in general the senechal is a very obscure person :
he holds his court in a whiskey-house ; the jury that are sworn
must have a certain quantity of whiskey before they will go
together. I speak from information upon this subject of which
I have no doubt; and I have heard of an instance in which they
decided for a person merely because he gave them more whiskey
than the other. In short, it is impossible, according to my
idea, to have any thing worse than the manor courts.
Though it is a trial by jury? — Though it is a trial by jury.
What sort of cases may come before them? — The jurisdiction
they exercise on summary proceedings is to forty shillings or
five pounds; but in most of those manor courts they commence
by issuing what is called a distingras ; and there the jurisdiction
may be unlimited, if the patents creating those courts have not
been preserved ; the evidence of their jurisdiction is evidence of
usage; and the greater and more lengthened continuation of
the abuse, the more strong is the evidence, and the legal right
to continue that abuse. There are no functions to be performed
by the manor courts in Ireland such as those in England : we
have no copyhold tenures ; there are not above three or four in
all Ireland ; and such courts therefore exist for no other purpose
than this miserable litigation. I take it they are an unmixed
and unmitigated evil.
Are you not aware there is an Act of Parliament which re-
quires the Lord of the manor to have a copy of his patent in
the hands of the clerk of the peace in the county?—! am.
And that unless such copy is in the hands of the clerk of the
peace no writ or process from that manor court is available? —
I am not aware of that: it will be reserved upon appeal; but
526 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
that would not be a void execution, so as to protect, what I believe
do occur, homicides in the execution of their decrees. The de-
crees are to be executed by the parties themselves, who have
obtained frequently that decree improperly: they are resisted,
and lives are lost.
Are those manor courts of any use ? — In my humble judgment
of not the least use. I have heard that on the Duke of Devon-
shire's estate there has been some reform ; but taking it as a
general principle, my opinion is, that they are not of the least
utility whatever.
And that they might be safely abolished? — My judgment is,
that not only they might be abolished with the greatest safety,
but that it would be doing a great and substantial benefit to
get rid of them altogether.
In the event of the abolition of manor courts, do you not
think it would be necessary to supply some other means for the
recovery of small debts to the poor within certain distances ?—
My own judgment is very much against those inferior courts.
I may be very much mistaken in it, but I think I have formed
my judgment to this extent, that it would be of use to abolish the
inferior courts altogether ; for that there ought not to be credit
given for small sums, and that the giving a process to recover
small sums is a greater evil than any that would result from
having no tribunal to recover them. No man of the lower
classes, or even of the upper, would give credit but to a man of
character; it would have a tendency to increase the value
of character. The lower classes would be precluded from
going into debt, a habit which I take to be quite ruinous to the
poorer classes.
Have you any means of forming a judgment as to the relative
landed property of Protestants and Roman Catholics in Ireland,
either generally or in any particular district ? — The proportion
is very greatly superior of Protestant to Roman Catholic landed
property in Ireland, I mean of estates in fee. I should suppose
that the Roman Catholics do not hold above one tenth perhaps
of the fee simple ; the derivative interests are considerable in
the hands of the Roman Catholics. I could not give so loose
an answer or so loose a calculation as I must give, as to what
the proportion of derivative interests is up to the period of
1778. For a greater portion of a century, Catholics could not
acquire landed property ; they have been acquiring it, consider-
ing their means, I think so rapidly since, that the rapidity is
now I think increasing very much, and will, under the present
system, continue to increase, except that some wealthy persons
are talking, and I believe intending, if there is not a change, to
take their property out of Ireland, and settle elsewhere; I
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 527
know two instances of wealthy Catholics so intending if the pre-
sent system continues. I cannot come closer on the calcu-
lation than that. In some counties, the Catholic property
has the preponderance ; in my own county of Kerry, the estate
of the Earl of Kenmare constitutes such a portion of the county,
that I should suppose he and other Catholics are in possession
of one half of the county. I may be mistaken about that, and
probably am.
The relative proportion has been stated as low, in point of
comparison with respect to Catholics, as one in fifty ? — Perhaps,
upon reflection, I should think one in ten too high for the Ca-
tholics, and that one in twenty would be nearer; and when I
give this answer, giving evidence as I do, as far as my judgment
goes, it must demonstrate how loose the guess is.
Are you not convinced, from your own knowledge, that one
in fifty is taking it much too low? — I am quite convinced of that.
Can you state whether, in instances of large property in the
South of Ireland, which have been sold in lots in the course of
the last twenty years, the larger proportion has been purchased
by Catholics, or by Protestants? — In some instances, as in the
county of Waterford, the largest proportion, I have reason to
think, was purchased by Catholics. Considerable lots have
been purchased in the county of Tipperary ; many lots of the
Courtenay estates in the county of Limerick have been pur-
chased by Catholics ; lately, in the Llandaff estate, I closed a
purchase, a few days before I left Dublin, to the extent of
43,000/. for a Catholic gentleman.
What description of persons have made those purchases? —
Country gentlemen, and mercantile men; mercantile men have
purchased to a very considerable extent.
Do you apprehend that many of those who have purchased
are likely to reside, and become resident gentlemen? — Yes;
almost all the Catholics intend to reside. The effect of the
present system of the union is, in my judgment, to increase very
much the relative proportion of the Catholics resident, for
every thing draws off the Protestants ; the legislature, every
kind of connexion with the legislature, the highest situations in
the army, every appointment in the colonies, tends to draw oft'
the Protestant population, of the best classes ; and the want of
these advantages leaves the Roman Catholics in the country ;
so that the relative proportion of resident Catholics is manifestly
on the increase.
Is there not a very large proportion of money lent on mort-
gages in Ireland by Catholics? — A very considerable propor-
tion of it lent by Catholics and Catholic Institutions, such as
528 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
convents, and things of that description; they have lent their
money generally on mortgage ; latterly there has been more at-
tention turned towards lending it in the funds.
There is a great deal of Catholic money lent on mortgages in
Ireland ? — Mortgages and judgments ; judgments have been con-
sidered, until lately, as of nearly equal value with mortgages ; but
a recent decision on the registry acts has very much shaken the
value of them.
In what case ? — It was thrown out by Lord Redesdale in a
case which has been since adopted by Lord Manners against the
opinion of the Court of Exchequer, but having been thus adopted,
it is considered as affecting the security of judgments. The de-
cision was, that an unregistered deed is valid as against a judg-
ment, what is familiarly called a pocket deed.
Have you had any means of calculating what proportion the
commercial property in the hands of Catholics bears to the com-
mercial property in the hands of Protestants? — No, I have not.
I have formed an opinion that the commercial wealth of the Ca-
tholics in Dublin is greater than that of the Protestants. In Bel-
fast the great proportion of the wealth is in the hands of dissen-
ters. All Protestant dissenters are emancipated in Ireland ; all
Protestants are on a perfect equality there.
Do you know the circumstances connected with the conduct of
Mr. Neylan, a priest ? — The Rev. Mr. Neylan, a Catholic priest,
is a magistrate of the county of Kerry ; he has been always very
active in suppressing any species of disturbance, and his residence
in the country became quite unsafe. He was obliged to barri-
cade his windows, and make a garrison of his house, and have
arms in it, exactly as the gentry in the disturbed districts were ;
and ultimately to take refuge in the town of Tralee.
Are there any other instances of Roman Catholic priests being
magistrates? — -I never heard but this. He is a very wealthy
man ; he has heritable property, and has accumulated his savings
in the funds.
Should you think it desirable, on general grounds, that Roman
Catholic priests should fill that situation? — No, I should think it
better they should not; I should be sorry to see them filling
it ; they have abundant duties to perform without it ; and it is
totally unnecessary to put them into it. I think the advantage
which the government could so well derive from their influence
would be diminished by making them magistrates.
Does your general idea with respect to the Protestant clergy
extend in the same line as you have mentioned with respect to the
Roman Catholic ? — No ; the Protestant clergy are of an higher
class, and are more educated for society ; their education is there-
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED, 529
fore what one would call of a superior class, and they have more
leisure ; so that where party spirit did not prevail, in general it
would be advisable to have the Protestant rector a magistrate. In
detail, however, I must say, that evils are found from making
them magistrates ; but if either were to be, I should prefer them.
My idea is quite general, from the notion I have formed of the
clergy of the establishment.
Die Veneris, 11° Martii, 1825.
THE LORD PRESIDENT, IN THE CHAIR.
Daniel O'Connell, Esquire, is called in, and further Examined,
as follows :
IN what manner, and to what degree, does remaining civil dis-
ability upon the Roman Catholics, affect the peace and prosperity
of Ireland ? — It prevents the due administration of justice ; it
creates, in my judgment, actual injustice in the administration
of the law ; it renders, in the opinion of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, life and property less secure than those of their Protest-
ants fellow-subjects ; it gives a perpetual superiority, accompa-
nied naturally by triumph, and even insolence, to the ruling
party, which becomes more marked and severe as it descends
among the inferior grades of society, and is of course mitigated
in the superior classes by education and better feelings. It works,
I think, actual injustice by its exclusions; for to my certain
knowledge the Roman Catholics of Ireland are as sincerely at-
tached to the succession of the crown in the present Royal Fami-
ly, and to the principles of the constitution, and to the connexion
with Great Britain, as any Protestants possibly can be ; and the
exclusion of persons with those feelings and opinions, which are
matured into a sense of duty, leaves upon our minds a perpetual
notion of injustice. In the detail of the administration of the
law by magistrates, there occurs from the system, pretty general
prevalence of advantage to the Protestant over the Catholic, so
that no matter how poor or humble a Protestant is, he has a de-
cided superiority in opinion, and I think in fact over the Catho-
lics; and the result of the entire is to create an indisposition
towards the government, a notion that they are ruled by power,
and not by law ; a separation of the country into two classes, so
that they do not consider themselves as king's subjects, as it were ;
and then every local grievance, and every thing that in the state
of society tends to create disturbance, is aggravated by the spirit
that is thus generated. And although the disturbances in Ireland
2 M
530 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
should not be traced to the penal laws by any means, but have
wider and more general causes creating them, they are aggra-
vated, and they have something of a tendency to perpetuity given
to them, by the existence of what we call the penal code.
If you consider the disturbances in any considerable degree to
be connected with the difference of religion, how do you account
for this circumstance, that in the province of Ulster, where reli-
gious animosities unfortunately prevail to the greatest degree,
there has been for the last twenty-five years no occasion to put in
force the Insurrection Act; whereas it has been repeatedly in
force in the counties of Clare, Limerick, Cork, and a part of
Kerry, besides other counties in the centre and south of Ireland,
in some of which little religious animosity comparatively exists ? —
There was within the last twenty-five years, in the north, one at-
tempt at open rebellion, connected with the affair of the unfortu-
nate Mr. Emmett, at the head of which attempt was a Mr. Rus-
sell, who, as I recollect, was executed for it; they were both
Protestants ; that was in the year 1803. There have been in the
north White-Boy outrages of a horrible nature, such as burning
the lodge called the Wild-Goose Lodge, with some of the inhabit-
ants in it. My opinion, derived from information, is, that with
respect to the government and security of the State, the Catholics
in the north are in a much more dangerous situation, and have
been, than the Catholics in the south. There is in the north, and
has been, a perpetually organised force of yeomanry, mostly
Orangemen, ready of course, at any moment, to meet any parti-
cular act of insubordination or insurrection; and giving, there-
fore, a more constant opposing force to particular acts of outrage.
The consequence has been, that the discontent, instead of expos-
ing itself in crimes of what I would call a driftless nature (that
is, horrible crimes, which by their very perpetration lose all fur-
ther effect except by intimidation), the Catholics in the north,
who originally were organized into defenders to oppose the origi-
nal formation of the orangemen, have since, to a very considera-
ble extent, according to my information, organised themselves into
a society called Ribbonmen. I believe that, from information, to
prevail to a very considerable extent ; that organization, which,
from the information I have, was, and still continues to a certain
extent to be in its nature extremely formidable, has enabled, with-
in the last year or two, the individuals connected with it to hold
their open processions as well as the Orangemen ; and if a foreign
enemy were to send them assistance, they would be, in my judg-
ment (at least until lately, for we have endeavoured as much as
possible to check that ribbonism), they would have been quite
ready to join a foreign enemy j so that although there was no
breaking out into open outrages, I am perfectly convinced that
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. £31
the spirit of religious hostility is infinitely more embittered, and I
would say more dangerous, m the north than in the south. It is
upon that account that I spoke of the effect of the penal laws
being general throughout Ireland. That ribbon system extended
itself into the Leinster provinces; it was extending itself into
Tipperary. I obtained information from a Catholic clergyman of
it, which I immediately transmitted to the Irish Attorney-Gene-
ral ; and between the measures taken by government (I believe
some of which I suggested, such as exhibiting, without making
any public parade of it, a great force in the neighbourhood in
which the ribbonism was spreading into Tipperary), and the ex-
ertions of the Catholic clergy and laity, it was stopped from
spreading there. It is threatening a good deal in the county of
Dublin, in the southern parts of it towards Wicklow ; but efforts
have been made to stop its progress. There is an oath of secrecy :
there is an oath or declaration of being of the Catholic Religion ;
so that it is an exclusive society, and its designs are certainly per-
fectly hostile. It has its origin and continuance, I am entirely
convinced, in the law, which creates the religious distinctions.
From my information, upon which I entertain no doubt, there is
scarcely any body connected with the ribbonism of the better
class of society.
If there are no persons of the better class connected with the
Ribbon Association, in what manner would the removal of disabi-
lities which affect directly only the better class, contribute to the
repression of those outrages ? — It affects the lower classes of the
towns and cities, and affects the working tradesmen, by shutting
them out of offices in the guilds and corporations; and that
among the industrious class, who have more intelligence in gene-
ral, and are greater politicians than the country people. And
thus it brings within the direct scope of the penal laws the
working tradesmen, manufacturers, and artisans of the cities and
towns.
Are they positively excluded by the penal laws from becoming
members of the guilds ? — Not from their being freemen, but they
are from all offices, as master and warden of any of the guilds, or
from being master, warden, sheriff, sub-sheriff, aldermen, and
common-councilmen, and all offices in the guilds, as well as in the
general corporations ; that is limited, to be sure, to the corpora-
tions governed by the new rules and regulations, which however
include all the large towns and cities in Ireland.
How does that affect the lower classes living in the country ? —
The lower classes living in the country are not affected directly
by the penal laws, but indirectly, to a very great extent. The
resident Catholic gentry, being shut out from parliament and the
higher offices, lose that patronage which they would naturally
2 M 2
532 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED,
have connected with the government, enabling them to place in
the lower situations the deserving peasantry of their neighbour-
hood. The accumulation of church rates latterly, especially, is
attributed in a very considerable degree by the peasantry to the
existing penal laws. Since the Union there have been two or
three statutes passed, that enabled the clergy of the established
church, without any reference to the wish of the parishioners, to
build churches where there are no Protestant inhabitants ; and
the constant superiority, and the insolence, which I spoke of -as
belonging to the lower classes of persons that are thus rendered
superior, all affect the minds of the peasantry; and then any
thing political, that gets connected with religion, is apt to go even
beyond the truth and necessity of the case. That these mingled
together, to my knowledge, have produced that indisposition upon
the minds of the lower classes of peasantry, which I have des-
cribed, or attempted to describe, in my former answer.
Would not the admissibility of the higher class of the Roman
Catholics, both to those offices from which they are now excluded
by law, and to other offices from which they are excluded by the
particular rules and practice of particular corporations, both dis-
pose and enable them to exercise a more efficient and constant
influence over the lower order of their own persuasion, in the re-
pression of outrage, and the maintenance of the peace of the
country ? — There are influences both ways as to that. Perhaps
Roman Catholic gentlemen have, and I sometimes think they
have, more influence by reason of the disabilities over the lower
orders; because, combining the sentiments of mutual exclusion
gives them what I would deem an improper influence, more ex-
tensive, perhaps, than any direct and proper influence would be ;
and amongst the educated classes of Catholics there is at present
a very great disposition, and has been, to assist the government ;
of course when you brought individual interest to run in the same
channel with that disposition, it would increase it. The moment
that we became actual subjects, all particular interest would be
done away in the general one of supporting the State, and con-
solidating the entire system of government.
Can they, in their present state of exclusion, act as efficiently
as a medium of communication between the lower orders and the
government, with respect to real or supposed grievances, as they
would if those disabilities were removed? — No, certainly not.
In the present state of a Catholic gentleman, if he take that part
which every gentleman feels it to be his duty to do, in repressing
disturbances, he is instantly linked in the class of the enemies,
and they hate him as much as they do any one else ; and there-
fore their legitimate influence, as organs between them and go-
vernment, is certainly very much diminished by the present state
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 533
of the law, and the consequent hostile feelings. I should think
there never was a period when it would be so easy to subdue that
feeling altogether, and to create a better one, than just now.
Why do you suppose that this period is so particularly favour-
able to an alteration of the law ? — The measures which have been
taken, and of which of course I am inclined to speak favourably,
having taken an active part in them myself; the committee will
therefore receive my answer with the species of abatement and al-
lowance which an interested person always receives. We have
brought the people to a great connexion now with the gentry;
we have combined the clergy with the gentry and the people ; the
consequence, without arrogating more of the present tranquillity
than we ought to ourselves, certainly is, that there is universal
tranquillity at this moment ; and acting thus together, and the
disposition of the clergy of every class and the gentry being most
sincerely to consolidate the interests of the people with that of the
government, I am convinced, that at this moment it can be done
with more effect and general satisfaction than at any time that has
come within my knowledge, up to this. At any former period
there would have been something of triumph, and perhaps I may
say insolent victory, on our parts ; I do not think there would be
the least at present. In that of course, I beg to say, the com-
mittee will perceive my interests run with my opinions, but that is
my conscientious opinion.
Are you of opinion that the Roman Catholics of Ireland, so
united as you have described them to be, are at the present mo-
ment more disposed to go considerable lengths, for the purpose of
coming to a fair and equitable arrangement with the Protestants,
than they have been at any former period ? — I am quite sure of
it ; and if I may be permitted to say, I believe I possess a good
deal of influence myself; and I certainly came to England with a
notion, that many, and even high names, that have opposed the
equalization of civil rights, gave as reasons (I hope I shall be
pardoned for expressing my opinion,) what I would call, without
any reserve, pretexts. From what I have seen in England, I am
convinced I was in error ; I have no doubt in my mind upon
that ; and the circumstances which now lead me to the firm
belief, that those were honourable and conscientious objections,
are very likely to make the same impression upon the people of
Ireland ; and I certainly, whatever may be the event of the pre-
sent prospects of the Catholics, must for the rest of my life,
having arrived at that conviction, speak of it, and treat of it with
the Catholics; in public and in private, as my conviction ; as far
as my influence goes, therefore, I will extend that sentiment, and
the reasons that convince me, will be likely to convince many
other Catholics.
534 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESd- EXAMINED.
In what manner would you propose to remove those objections
on the part of the opponents of Catholic Emancipation which
you believe to be honourable and conscientious ? — By their in-
quiring minutely into the facts on which they at present rest
their opinions ; by their inquiring of Catholics, who are, like
myself, conscientiously convinced of the truth of the Catholic
religion ; making, as I before said, a kind of rebate for any par-
ticular political position ; consulting the Catholic prelates upon their
oaths ; inquiring into our habits, political and religious ; and I am
quite convinced, that that being done, in the spirit, in which, if it
be done at all, I am sure it will, those persons would either
arrive at the conclusion, that their opinions were grounded on
facts that did not support the opinions, or would, on the other
hand, arrive at a certainty of facts, which, if they existed against
us, would confirm them in their present opinions ; and I do declare,
that if we were excluded in that way by facts against us, my own
anxieties on the subject would be at an end, and I would submit
to the justice of such an exclusion.
What are the facts upon which the conscientious opponents of
the claims of further privileges to the Catholics rest, and upon
which you think, if better informed, they would withdraw their
opposition ? — We understand that some extremely high names,
and there cannot be higher possibly than some of them, rest their
opposition on the danger of the reassumption of the forfeited estates.
There were opinions published of persons of rank and weight,
that the Catholics, if admitted to the administration of justice,
would not do equal justice to Protestants as well as Catholics—-
opinions that Catholics looked for the establishment of their
church in the room of the present established church ; that they
looked for a transfer of the ecclesiastical property ; that they
looked for the means of oppressing the Protestants of Ireland,
and obtaining a Catholic ascendancy in the room of the Protest-
ants. These appear to me, from my present recollection, to be
the facts upon which it seems that there is a conscientious objec-
tion to the admission of the Catholics ; and I should wish to say,
that if they were founded, or any of them founded, I should cer-
tainly admit them to be most valid objections to Catholic Eman-
cipation. I know that there is not the least danger of the re-
assumption of forfeited estates. The forfeited estates are of two
natures : estates which belonged to the church when it was a
Homan Catholic Church, and estates which belonged to indi-
viduals who were Catholics, and who forfeited. Now I know
that in practice the more recent forfeitures, which would be of
course the most exposed to danger of re-assumption, are considered
now the best titles to be purchased by Catholics. I know that
there is an impossibility at present in tracing out the persons who,
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 535
if there were a re-assumption, would have what would be consi-
dered legitimate title to those forfeited estates, even the most
recent, or so great a difficulty as to amount in any one case in my
judgment to an impossibility ; but take three, or four, or five
cases, I would venture to assert, and I do assert it to amount to
an impossibility. The forfeited estates are now constituted the
properties of the Roman Catholics. I do not know a Roman
Catholic who ever purchased any thing but a portion of a forfeited
estate, forfeited either by the church or by private individuals ;
so that I can state with confidence to the Committee, that all the
estates the Catholics have purchased since 1778 have been for-
feited estates. Then the Catholics have a number of leases for
lives renewable for ever, and leases of lives and valuable terms of
years ; all that I know, and I believe the proposition may be
stated universally, are upon forfeited estates. Of course, if there
was a re-assumption, the Catholics would lose those. In my own
individual instance, if I may be permitted to say it, I have but
one small property that was not forfeited ; the rest, which
although comparatively trivial, is of course of great importance
to me, is either forfeited by individuals, or forfeited by the church,
for I have both. The property I allude to as forfeited by the
church belonged to the priory of the canons regular of Saint
Austin, in the barony of Iveragh ; the parish which is still called
the Priory Parish. The word forfeiture certainly is not an ap-
plicable term, but the term of re-assumption would apply to both ;
it was a confiscation. All the property of both of my brothers,
and they are each of them quite independent, is forfeited estates,
if I may use the expression, of one or the other kind ; for my
youngest brother, before I came here, completed a purchase of a
fee simple estate of about 700/. a-year, that was forfeited by a
Colonel Roger M'Killigut at the Usurpation ; it appearing by
the patent of the person who passed the patent of the family of
Morris, that it had been so forfeited, stiled in the Book of Dis-
tributions an Irish Papist. My other brother has one estate that
produces him 100CM. a-year at present, and being set on deter-
minable leases, the reversion is very valuable. That was the
estate of the Abbey of CTDorney, called in the ancient records
the Abbey of Kyrie Elison ; it was a mitred abbacy, and the
abbot was a lord of Parliament. I mention these individual
instances to shew that the Catholic gentry are all interested in
maintaining the present system of property ; that the Catholic
farmers are all interested in maintaining the present state of pro-
perty that is derived under the Acts of Settlement, and those
patents ; and I would venture to assert, that there is nothing that
would be so likely to create a civil war in Ireland among the
Roman Catholics, as any attempt to alter the Acts of Settlement,
536 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EX
or look for the old heirs or successors to those properties ; al
intelligence of the Catholics of the country, all its moral vigour,
would certainly take as strong a part as prudence and conscience
permitted them, to oppose such an alteration.
You state that it would be totally impossible to trace any per-
sons who were entitled to landed property among the laity ; what
objection would there be to the church setting forward her old
rights ; the church having a perpetual succession, and perpetual
descent, and claiming the abbey and church lands, which have
been forfeited ? — That the Catholics would resist that precisely as
much as any others would. An immense number of Catholics on
the estate of the Earl of Limerick would, to my knowledge, resist
it most strenuously.
You do not conceive that there would be any danger of the
Roman Catholic Church reclaiming those lands, the church
having perpetual succession ? — To my knowledge, not the least ;
and no Protestant would resist it more strenuously, to the loss of
life, than the Catholics would. We know that in point of reli-
gion the title is now gone out of the church, and could not be re-
assumed without the law of Ireland giving it again to the church ;
and the making of that law we would resist, feeling, as con-
scientious Catholics, that the land is ours.
The second branch of the objection was on the ground of the
Catholics looking to the re-establishment of the Catholic Church
In room of the Protestant Church ? — I know, from my own know-
ledge, having been conversant for twenty-one years with those
who have taken an active part for Catholic Emancipation ; having
heard them, not only in public, where sentiments may be feigned,
but in private, in the privacy of domestic and gentlemanly inter-
course, where no sentiment would be concealed, for there would
be no motive to conceal it ; I can state, under the solemn sanc-
tion under which I am speaking, that I never heard one senti-
ment from Catholic laymen or clergymen upon that subject, but
of decided hostility to any such measure ; and, that the Catholics
would accept of Emancipation with the same gratitude that they
would take it without the provision which I am going now to
state, coupled with a proviso, that it should be utterly void, and
that the entire penal code should be re-enacted the moment any
such claim to the transfer of church property from the Protestant
church to the Catholic was made by any considerable portion of
the Catholic people ; we would most readily make that the char-
ter or condition enacted by the Protestant Parliament, of the
equalization of our civil rights, and restore the entire penal code
whenever any thing of that kind was proposed. Being bound to
answer the question, we are convinced, that for particular pur-
poses> the wealth of the clergy is not desirable; and, as Ca-
ESQ. EXAMINED. 537
tholics, as far as religion influences us, we are therefore against
our clergy being rich ; as citizens of the state, we do not well
understand the value of it ; and, as citizens of the state, as far as
we understand the value of it, we are decidedly opposed to the
transfer ; that could only take place through tumult and riot,
and insurrection, and brute force, in which life ceases to be
valuable to men of any religion.
Will you explain whether there is any ground for supposing
they would wish to transfer the tithes now received by the Pro-
testant clergy to the Catholic clergy ? — I meant to include the
tithes in my former answer. There is no species of property that
there would be so much opposition by the Catholics to the trans-
fer of as the tithes. Ireland is at present almost solely an agri-
cultural country, and therefore the tithes bear heavily on a
country that is solely agricultural ; they bear universally on the
people, and they are, I would say, odious both to Catholic and
Protestant in Ireland, and we would revolt extremely at the idea
of our clergy getting any share of them.
The next portion of your answer referred to the idea of their look-
ing to a Catholic ascendency ? — I beg to state the same grounds
of my knowledge. I know that the Catholics do not look to any
such ascendency : I know there is a very warm and cordial feel-
ing in the minds of the Catholics towards all Protestants in Ire-
land who are what we call liberal Protestants, a sense of friend-
ship and patronage, as we may consider it, towards us ; and from
the present state of society and of education, we are quite con-
vinced that an ascendency coupled with the state, and governing
and oppressing any proportion, as ascendency must, other fellow-
christians, would be derogatory to our safety as citizens, and
injurious to our religion. I am of opinion that the Roman
Catholics are made more zealous in the profession and practice of
their religion by there being a Protestant ascendency in Ireland ;
and I take it for granted it would have precisely the same effect
on the Protestants if the Catholics had the ascendency. Men
who suffer for any persuasion, become, I fancy, more attached to
it, especially when their suffering does not extend to any thing
like utter extermination, but is an inconvenience to be boasted 01,
as this practically would be, to a certain extent. I am quite cer-
tain there is no provision that the legislature would think fit to
make by law to prevent the possibility of any danger of a Ca-
tholic ascendency, which would not be most cheerfully and readily
acceded to by the Irish Catholics.
Of what nature do you conceive any such provision could pos-
sibly be? — Only those provisions that would make the civil
liberties of the Catholics depend upon this ; the non-introduction
of any law that would have a contrary tendency ; and then, until
538 DANIEL O^CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
a majority of both houses of Parliament become Catholics, the
thing would be impossible. It would be necessary, therefore, to
convert a majority in both houses, the danger of which I believe
is not much apprehended.
There is no specific provision you have in your mind to that
effect? — No. there is not. They could acquire the ascendency
only, by becoming the great majority, so as to have a physical
force as well as a moral power. I think the equalization 01 civil
rights would therefore tend to diminish the accumulation of our
numbers. We are accumulating very fast in our relative pro-
portions in Ireland at present.
Is there any species of pledge upon that subject, which the
Catholics, collectively or individually, would refuse to make ? — I
am convinced there is not ; there is no pledge which the legislature
would require upon that subject that the Catholics would not be
most ready to make ; there is no provision which the legislature
could devise for that purpose, that the Catholics would not, in
my judgment, readily and cheerfully accede to, so as to secure
the State against any idea of a Catholic ascendency.
Is it possible to suggest any provision beyond the oath by
which a Catholic is now required to state that he will not make
use of any power he receives in the state towards the overturning
of the Protestant establishment ? — I do not think there is, except
the connecting by interest with the Protestant succession, the
Catholic clergy as well as the Catholic laity.
Do not the Catholic clergy hold it as one of their tenets to
obtain ascendency for their religion over any other ? — If by
ascendency is meant any thing political, they certainly do not ;
they certainly maintain no tenet that does not make them ready
to submit to the ascendency, even of another persuasion ; and in
Ireland, as far as they mix politics with religion, I know they
seek and desire nothing but equality of civil rights. There is
no species of disclaimer of the tenet of seeking such ascendency
that I am sure the clergy would not readily acquiesce in ; but of
course they think their own religion the best, and they would not
submit to be prevented from, by preaching and argument, seeking
to convert others by the means of reasoning and persuasion.
Do you think any objection would be fejt to the continuance
of the oath just referred to, with respect to all Catholics who
might be admitted into any office, or into parliament ? — Not the
least upon that part of the oath ; the only part of the oath to
which I know that an objection exists, is that part which requires
us to swear, that we do not believe that it is lawful to kill or
injure any person for or under pretence of being a heretic. Now
we really feel extremely unpleasant when we are called upon to
take such an oath ; it is not that we have any religious scruple on
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 539
the taking it, but it comes upon us as a degradation, that we
should be asked to do it ; and if we entertained the tenet which
that contradicts, we ought not to be emancipated, most assuredly.
The next opinion you referred to was, that Roman Catholic
judges would not do equal justice to Catholics and Protestants? —
As to meeting that, I am really convinced such a danger does
not exist. I am bound, however unpleasantly, to speak of my-
self, who, upon the subject of reform and other things, may not
be well thought of at any time by the existing governing power.
I am perfectly well able to say, there is no such danger. Roman
Catholics, as they get into business, are constantly employed
between Catholics and Protestants as arbitrators. I myself am
very frequently arbitrator. I have been arbitrator twice between
clergymen of the Established Church and Catholics. The
Reverend Mr. Graves, of the county of Limerick, had a suit
with a Catholic, respecting accounts, coupled with a right to
tithes ; the Catholic appointed me as arbitrator, and the cler-
gyman appointed another gentleman, who was my junior. The
award was mine ; and I claim no merit at all, of course, from
having made an award in favour of Mr. Graves ; I would have
felt most painfully the least idea that I had any merit in making
that award. The Reverend Mr. Miller, I recollect, of the
county of Clare, a Protestant clergyman, appointed me an arbi-
trator between him and a Catholic ; and I made an award which
was so unsatisfactory to the Catholic, that he made an application,
or was about to make an application, to set it aside, as being against
the merits. Every Roman Catholic barrister feels, that he would
have no merit at all in that. Then if Roman Catholics be
taunted, so far as to have a justifiable suspicion that they would
not administer justice fairly to Protestants, that would re-act, and
create a suspicion that Protestants would not do justice to Roman
Catholics ; if it be in human nature, that we should be influenced
by our religion against our duties and our oaths, the same must
operate against the Protestant judges.
The Judges being removable on the address of both Houses of
Parliament, would not a Catholic judge have a motive of interest,
as well as of honour and duty, in administering justice in the
most honest and impartial manner ? — He certainly would ; and as
it is religion which is supposed to influence him; in doing injustice it
seems a strange anomaly to use religion ; for it is impossible. If
he be a religious Catholic, that is, a man who is attached to his
religion, as such, he will revere the sanctity of his oath, and the
greater obligation, if possible, of the duties of his station ; if he
be not a religious Catholic, he has not the powerful influence to
make him do injustice for the sake of that religion which he does
not venerate or revere ; and then the Crown, being the source of
540 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
all appointments, would certainly be very ill-advised, if it ap-
pointed a Roman Catholic, from whom there was any such
danger. I should therefore venture to assert, that the danger in
question cannot possibly follow ; and in the instances where Ro-
man Catholics were judges, the last Roman Catholic judge who
sat was a Judge Daly ; and history tells of him, that no man
could have conducted himself with more impartiality than he did,
even during the reign of James the Second, in Ireland.
Do you know of any instance, from the highest office con-
nected with the administration of justice to which Catholics are
now admissible, to the lowest in the police, in which any Ca-
tholic appointed to such office has been removed upon the im-
putation of acting unfairly between Catholic and Protestant ? —
I do not know of any such, and I believe it is impossible that any
such should exist ; for this reason, that there is in Ireland a press
extremely active, and extremely hostile to Catholics, asserting
constantly the most unfounded falsehoods against us ; and if
there were one fact of that kind existing, it certainly would be
published throughout the empire, by means of that press ; there
is the greatest possible probability that it would, if it existed.
You were understood to have stated, that Catholics now think
they cannot obtain justice from Protestant judges or magis-
trates ; is not equally natural, that Protestants should apprehend
they could not obtain justice from the Catholics? — It would cer-
tainly be equally natural ; but it is not the opinion of the Catho-
lics, that they do not obtain justice from the Protestant judges.
The instances in which the Catholics attribute injustice upon that
point to judges are extremely rare and few ; but my former
answer, if it implied that, did not convey my meaning, because I
intended to include the machinery of justice through the medium
of which the judge acts, that is, juries and inferior officers, as,
for instance, masters in chancery ; but as to ten or eleven of the
judges of the common law courts, no human being in Ireland
imagines that the Catholics do not get from them the full equal
measure of justice which the Protestant does, as far as the judge
himself is concerned, I would say, eleven out of the twelve ; on
the contrary, the opinion is universal, that the judges themselves
make no such distinction.
Would it be possible for a Roman Catholic judge, on the bench,
to shew a Roman Catholic bias, in the sight of an intelligent bar?
—I think utterly impossible, without its being detected and
known, and despised and punished.
Can you state about what number of Roman Catholic barristers
there are at present in considerable business in Ireland ? — About
seven or eight.
Can you state the whole number of Roman Catholic Barristers ?
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED* 541
• — In round numbers, there are somewhere more than 120 called
to the bar.
What proportion does that bear to the Protestant barristers ?—
I should think, there are perhaps twenty to twenty-five Protestant
barristers, in considerable business.
In business as considerable as the Roman Catholics to whom
you have referred ? — Yes ; taking them on the same scale, the
Protestant bar are in the greatest business, with one exception. I
believe there is one Catholic barrister in as much business as any
Protestant unconnected with office.
Do you know the whole number of Protestant barristers ? —
The number called to the bar is great ; I should suppose 500.
There attend the Hall, in round numbers, about 150 or 200, alto-
gether, Protestants and Catholics. The Catholic barristers are not
so likely to get into business as Protestants, because all the offices
are either by law excluded, or have been practically excluded from
the Catholics until lately. There has been lately a Roman Catholic
gentleman appointed to a chairmanship ; they have been eligible
to that situation since the formation of the assistant-barristers.
Are there many Roman Catholic solicitors ? — Very many ; and
the number is daily increasing.
Are they in considerable business ? — In considerable business,
and of integrity, family, and character. The Roman Catholics
are furnishing a very excellent set of men to the profession of
attornies.
Would not the number of Roman Catholic barristers have been
more considerable, had they been admissible to the higher offices
of judicature ? — I do not know that ; it has appeared a kind
of ambition with Poman Catholic families to have their sons
called to the bar, since the bar has been open to them ; but
if they were admissible to the higher offices, more of them would
have attended to the drudgery and details of the profession,
that are necessary in order to get into business. I do not think
they would be more in number than they are at present, but
they would be more in efficiency in business. The damp and
depression upon a Catholic barrister is very considerable ; for
example, in my own case, for a great number of years I scarcely
got any business from Roman Catholics at all ; my clients were
almost all exclusively Protestants, and many of them very high
ascendency persons ; the Roman Catholics had a kind of feeling,
that they were not quite so secure in the courts (I mean this not
to apply to judges, but to the entire machinery) as the Protestants.
They, the Catholics, did not like to increase the disfavour by
having a Catholic advocate ; and there are reasons, connected with
myself, of perhaps more animation, I would call it, and others
intemperance, which made them particularly desirous to avoid
54$ DANIEL o'CGNNIiLL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
me ; so that I got into professional business by my clients being
generally, and almost universally, Protestants.
Therefore, the increased employment of Catholic Barristers
would rather shew increased confidence in the administration of
justice ? — I am sure it would ; and if both parties were put upon
terms of equalization in civil rights, I believe, and I hope, that a
distinction in practical life between Catholic and Protestant would
be unknown ; I think it would be unknown, and that every man's
individual merit would be the sole cause of his employment.
Do you not think that if a perfect equalization of civil rights were
to take place, it would shortly happen that in judicial, as well as
other proceedings, the question of religion never could arise, or in
all probability be thought of? — That is certainly my conviction,
and I will venture to say, that if it was not, so many efforts would
not be made for that equalization.
Does it occur to you that the equalization of political rights en-
joyed by Catholics and Protestants would be conveniently and ad-
vantageously accompanied by some legislative provision for the Ca-
tholic clergy, dependent upon the will and pleasure of the crown?
— Yes, it does. I think it would be very desirable in that case,
that the government should possess a legitimate influence over the
Catholic clergy, so that in all the relations of the state with fo-
reign powers the government should be as secure of the Catholic
clergy as they are now of the Protestant clergy. I think there-
fore it would be very desirable, that the government should have
that reasonable bond, that would bind the Catholic clergy in in-
terest to them, as well as in duty. I should be very desirous my-
self of seeing government possess that influence.
Have you considered, and can you communicate to the Com-
mittee, the details of any such measure ? — I think a moderate
provision made for the Catholic clergy, ascertaining that they
were native-born subjects, born in the allegiance. With the
exception of individuals at present alive, and fit for offices, who
have been partly educated abroad, my wish, and that of the
Catholic gentlemen and noblemen with whom I act, would be,
that the Catholic clergy should be, means being found for that
purpose which do not exist at present, educated within the alle-
giance, so that all foreign influence by reason of education should
be taken away, as well as foreign influence by reason of birth.
Is it not generally believed, that the members of the Roman
Catholic hierarchy in Ireland, who have been educated abroad,
are as respectable, and as well conducted in all respects, and as
much attached to the constitution, as those who have been edu-
cated in Ireland ? — Certainly, it is so believed, and I am con-
vinced it ought to be so believed, for I would venture to say, I
know that they are so ; but I happen to know that in future it
PANIEL OCONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 543
may not be quite so safe. The gentlemen thus circumstanced were
educated while foreign influence, operating upon the Catholic
mind, was checked by the natural anti-jacobinism, if I may use
the phrase, of the Catholic clergy. The revolutionary tendency on
the continent was, to destroy the Catholic clergy and the Catholic
religion ; and those who have been thus educated at present are
all not only perfectly loyal persons, but if they have a fault at
all, it is the exaggeration of that good principle. But I have
reason to fear that there are means taking in a neighbouring
county to educate a number of Catholic priests for Ireland ; and
there certainly is now no anti-catholicity in that country, but
the contrary ; and I feel it a sacred duty to say, that I look with
alarm to the progress of that species of education, unchecked as it
would be in future by enmity between the Catholic clergy gene-
rally, and the particular power to which I allude in the present
instance.
Were any, or any considerable number of the present Catholic
hierarchy educated in Ireland ? — Many were ; I would say the
great majority were educated in Ireland, according to my im-
pression. I know of my own knowledge, for example, the
Catholic Bishop of Kerry, the Right Reverend Doctor Egan,
was educated in Ireland.
Has any marked difference of character fallen under your
observation, between that proportion of the Catholic clergy in
Ireland that has received a foreign education, and that which has
received a comparatively domestic education? — Those whom I
remember as old men had all been educated abroad, and had
naturally a tinge of jacobitism connected with them. In the
reign of his late majesty that merged into unaffected loyalty to
the present family ; the family of James having become extinct.
Those persons were not, I think, educated to purposes of so
much mental actmty and power as the Catholic clergy at present.
The education of the former began at a much later period of life.
In general they could not go to the burses, as they were called in
France and foreign parts, until they had been actually priested,
for the burses were not in themselves sufficient for their entire
support; they must have the advantage of the payments they
received for saving masses. They could not say mass without
being priests ; they could not be priested until the age of twenty-
three and some months. Up to that period they acquired no
knowledge, but some classical knowledge of Greek and Latin.
Properly speaking, their education commenced at twenty-four.
The consequence naturally followed, that the period of great
mental activity had passed before they could come into the prac-
tical employment of that education. At present, the Catholic
clergy educated in Ireland are educated under very strict and
DANIEL CTCONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
rigid discipline from a very early period of life, from that peri(
when the desire of science is a voracious appetite to a person
separated from amusements and business; and they have, in my
knowledge of them, acquired a very superior degree of intel-
ligence, and being most of them the sons of very low persons,
they have astonished me by not only their manners, but by the
classical facility and elegance of their style in writing. I would
refer to some of the controversies on the distribution of the Bible,
which have lately taken place, the published speeches of many of
the priests are written (putting the argument of course out of the
question) in a style quite superior to that of which the former
class of clergy were capable.
You have said that the present clergy are in general the sons
of persons of a low condition ; what was the class from which the
former clergy were taken ? — I do not mean to make a contrast in
that respect ; the former were taken from the same, or nearly the
same class ; I should think perhaps a little superior ; but the
difference not very great, and by no means for any public
purpose could I say it would be essential.
In point of fact, were not some of the Roman Catholic clergy,
educated abroad, the sons of gentry, whereas there are none of
that class now ? — Some of those formerly educated abroad were
the sons of gentry ; at present, several of the sons of gentry are
educated at Maynooth. I have a nephew at Maynooth, and
another very near relation, the son of a gentleman of independent
means, who is letting the property pass to his second brother, and
becoming a priest.
Were not those burses which you have mentioned the esta-
blishments in foreign colleges for the purposes of education,
established by respectable middling families of the Roman Ca-
tholic persuasion in Ireland ? — They were established by Roman
Catholic families, who claimed to be of high descent, and whose
means were limited of course by various causes. The largest
foundation in Paris was one made by my family several years
ago, that would give us at present, if there had been no revo-
lution, something more than twenty burses. My two brothers
and I have three at present ; it is regulated that the three prin-
cipal persons of the name in the county of Kerry should nominate
to those burses. We have, at present, three or four establish-
ments in the University of Paris ; the young men we have sent
there are not educating for the priesthood, but I am very much
afraid, from some recent circumstances, that we shall not be able
to send them in future any other than persons educating for the
priesthood ; in which case, if there be emancipation and another
provision, I should think we should be very glad to dispose of
the right to the French government. If at the peace this matter
i
DANIEL O CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
545
had been known, it is probable those funds might have been
easily transferred to this country.
What is the amount of those burses ? — About %5l. British a
year was the income of each burse. The way in which they
were established was by vesting a sum to accumulate in the
French funds for a certain number of years, and then the accu-
mulation to be left for ever hereafter at interest ; with a portion
of it, however, in the nature of a sinking fund ; but being a fund
always accumulating, so that the number of those burses will
increase.
Are you acquainted with the number of burses in foreign uni-
versities now remaining ? — No, I am not ; but I heard in round
numbers that there were now educating in France, for Ireland,
something about two hundred priests, not on Irish burses, but on
means found by the Catholic church in France, or persons acting
under the government ; I have heard that estimated at two
hundred ; of course, that is a loose estimate.
In what places ? — In almost every part of France, certainly in
various parts. Every bishop in France has endeavoured to have
a diocesan seminary, and in various parts of France those exist ;
and my own apprehensions, with respect to the foreign education
of the Catholic clergy, are founded principally upon the view of
our continuing without what we call emancipation, — the cause of
discontent continuing ; I should not myself be so much afraid of
foreign education if we were emancipated.
Are there not many persons educating for the Catholic church
in the Belgic provinces ? — I may be mistaken ; I believe there
are not. I know there were very many before the revolution ;
there were several establishments, both of what we call secular
and regular clergy, before the revolution. Some of them may
exist at present, but I do not know that they do.
Do you mean, when you mentioned in round numbers, two
hundred students, that they were natives of Ireland, or natives of
other countries destined for Ireland ? — All natives of Ireland. I
do not believe the Catholic bishops of Ireland would knowingly
receive any foreigner into the priesthood in Ireland at present,
except some of the emigrant priesthood that suffered by the revo-
lution, and that are still remaining ; with that exception, I am
quite convinced that the Catholic bishops in Ireland would not
one of them receive a foreigner.
In what mode does the selection take place of individuals who
are sent to enjoy the benefits of education in France? — That
depends on the original constitution of the burse. In many in-
stances the head of the family is described in the French grant
or notarial instrument that regulates the nomination. In the
instance of my family, it is the three principal persons of the
' 2 N
546 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
family and name of O'Connell in the county of Kerry ; and
presentation, I may call it, is a right to be received in the
university of Paris, unless there be particular objection to the
individual. We consider in ourselves vested the right of
presentation.
With respect to those who go over to the diocesan seminaries,
how is the selection made ? — I believe there is no selection ; that
those who go there are supernumeraries, whom our bishops have
not an opportunity of having educated, either at Maynooth or in
their own diocesan seminaries ; that that system of education is
not encouraged, as I believe, by the Catholic bishops in Ireland ;
but having more subjects than they can educate, there is a surplus
of them that go to France for education. Irish Catholic priests
are in great demand ; they are in demand in England ; they are
very much in demand in all the United States ; they are in de-
mand in Canada ; in all the British colonies ; and even New
South Wales is claiming a portion of them.
How are they recommended by the Irish bishop to the bishop
in France ? — Merely by an exeat, consisting of a testimonial of
good character ; I know of no other. The person claims that as
a right, if he has conducted himself with strict morality, and is
competent in point of classical literature.
At what age are they sent over to those diocesan seminaries ? —
Young, certainly ; that is, from sixteen to nineteen, or twenty,
or twenty-one perhaps. In our burses in Paris we have put in
very young persons; at present my family has none, but for
secular education.
Upon the principles upon which you have been answering some
of the last questions, and in the event of any regulation respecting
the Roman Catholic clergy, do you think that a separate educa-
tion for the Roman Catholic clergy would be an advisable thing
to continue or not ? — My own wish would be very much, that the
Catholic and Protestant clergy should be educated in the same
university. I think it would be a most desirable thing; and I
think it would be one of the consequences that would follow very
shortly after emancipation. There are mutual mistakes and
mutual prejudices that would prevent its being done perhaps at
the present moment, with the cordiality that ought to accompany
it, in order to make it useful. It is matter of speculative opinion ;
but I am sure it would be very much the wish of the Catholic
laity to see the clergy of the three principal persuasions educated
in the same university, as it is very desirable that the laity of all
persuasions should be educated together.
In the event of its being found expedient to extend the present
system of education to the Roman Catholic clergy, with a view
to the accommodation of great numbers, would there be any
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 547
great difficulty in connecting in Ireland a more extensive system
of education in general science with that of theology ? — No diffi-
culty at all, if the government thought fit to grant sufficient funds
for that purpose.
Are the Committee to understand, that that extension of the
means of educating the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, which
you state to be desirable, would not be desirable, if confined to
the present system of exclusive education, such as prevails in the
college at Maynooth ? — I did not mean to convey that idea at all.
I should, from my opinion, be of the two more anxious to in-
crease the means of Maynooth college, if there were not an equa-
lization of civil rights, leaving to the combination of future events
the mode in which the clergy of all persuasions should be edu-
cated in the same university. I should think it still more de-
sirable, in the event of our remaining as we are, that Maynooth
should be enriched, so as to take away the temptation and the ne-
cessity of foreign education, which I take to be dangerous prin-
cipally in the event of the continuance of the existing order of
things.
The question refers to the equalization of civil rights ? — I think
that the college of Maynooth ought to be increased ; it being in
my opinion desirable that the Catholic clergy should be educated
at home, but the funds are inadequate.
Do you think the establishment of a state provision for the
Catholic clergy would produce any alteration in the character,
conduct, and influence of the Catholic priests ? — If the state pro-
vision were not accompanied with the equalization of civil rights
it would not be accepted of at all, I take it ; and even if it were,
the effect of it would be to destroy the influence and respecta-
bility of the Catholic priests, in my humble judgment. In the
event of the equalization, I do not think it would destroy their
influence at all ; I think that it would have some tendency to im-
prove the character ; but however mistaken I may be, my own
opinion is very high of the general character of the Catholic
clergy at present, and therefore I speak of improvement with
diffidence and doubt.
From your knowledge of the feelings of the Catholic clergy,
are you convinced that, as accompanying emancipation, they
would be generally ready and willing to receive state provision ?
— I have not the least doubt upon my mind that they would be
quite ready, as accompanying emancipation. I have as little
doubt that they would be decided in their rejection if offered to
them without the equalization of civil rights — what we call eman-
cipation.
Do you think the Catholics of Ireland would be content to ex-
change the indirect political power they now possess, by means of
2 N 2
548 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
the 40s. freeholders, for the direct advantage of the political in-
fluence they would possess if admitted to the enjoyment of equal
rights ? — There may be some little clamour upon that subject,
but it would be an irrational one, and, I think, easily put down.
I am convinced the Catholics would very readily mate that ex-
change, particularly as accompanied by all the other advantages
that they would look to from a participation generally with the
Protestants of power. I do not think there would be any diffi-
culty in coupling that with the measure of emancipation ; in my
own judgment there would be none.
Do you not think that, in consequence of the present complete
union existing among all the Catholics in Ireland, and in conse-
quence of their being now under the guidance of men capable of
appreciating the real benefit which would be derived to the coun-
try from the equalization of civil privileges, by means of that in-
fluence, those persons so seeing the real advantages of the mea-
sure, would be able to quiet any jealousies or animosities which
might arise from the supposed change of the law on the part of
the 40s. freeholders. — Without venturing to adopt any part of
the question, which implies a complimentary expression, I have
no doubt that would be easily effected by the persons who have
been acting for the body at large hitherto. I know it would be
very much their desire to do it ; and I can answer that measures
have been already taken upon the persuasion, such as there is, of
carrying emancipation. I have reason to hope that those preli-
minary measures have met with success.
Do you not think that the 40s. freeholders themselves, or the
lower classes in Ireland, would have a disposition to concede,
even independent of the interference of the higher classes ? — My
opinion is, that down to the lowest class of the Catholics in Ire-
land, the emancipation is considered an object of value, for the
attainment of which they would make sacrifices ; and therefore,
I think that the 40s. freeholders must participate in the general
feeling on that subject, and would be ready to contribute to the
general advantage, even at a loss to themselves.
Are you convinced, from your knowledge of the Roman Ca-
tholic body in Ireland, that the statements which have been made,
that the question of Emancipation does not affect the feelings of
the lower classes in Ireland, are unfounded ? — I am quite con-
vinced that they are unfounded ; and many of the answers I have
given shew that such conviction is strongly upon my mind. I
•would venture to say, that I know that statement is unfounded ;
the collection of the Catholic rent proves that pretty well.
Do you think that the objection which might be made to the
raising the qualification from 40s. to 10/. would proceed from the
person who now is described as the 40s. freeholder, or rather from
DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED. 549
a middle description, the person who outrageously creates those
freeholders for the purpose of disposing of them, and might be
called a freehold jobber ? — I am persuaded it would proceed very
much from the person described as a freehold jobber; and that the
excitation of the 40s. freeholders would be attributed, in a great
measure, to such jobbers.
Under the present system, would not a freehold jobber, whose
estate might let for 2,000/. a year, be able to get more votes than
a person who had 20,000/. a year would have upon his estate, if
that estate were properly managed ? — Certainly ; the freehold job-
ber whose estate might let for 2,000/. a year might have an im-
mense number of votes without diminishing his rent at all ; while
a gentleman of 20,000/. a year might have a less number by ma-
naging his property as he ought to do.
Does not such a system then give a direct premium in the mis-
management of property ? — It certainly does ; and there are com-
plaints made even to the clergymen, of wretches being compelled
to swear to a 40s. freehold where they cannot in conscience do it.
Is not therefore the present system of 40s. freeholds in Ireland
liable to all the evils of universal suffrage, adding to it the evil of
perjury? — I should think, that universal suffrage would correct
the evil ; and I am the less competent therefore from that opinion
to answer the question ; my opinion being, that universal suffrage
would correct the evil, by taking away the inducement to jobbing,
and the means of jobbing, and the perjury also.
You did not mean to say, that your opinion was, that universal
suffrage was a good ; but that it was preferable to the system,
stated? — Yes, I did. I meant to say, that my opinion, how-
ever erroneous it may be deemed, is, that universal suffrage, un-
der proper regulations, would be a real good.
Do you think that the feeling of dissatisfaction under the pre-
sent disqualifying laws is increasing among the Catholics in Ire-
land ? — Certainly; increasing as the Catholics increase in wealth
and numbers, which they are doing. The dissatisfaction is increasing
very much, and as they become more intelligent ; personally to
myself, it oppresses me more from my success in my profession.
You are of opinion, therefore, that whatever evils may, up to
the present moment, have arisen from the existing state of dis-
qualification under which the Catholics labour, those evils must
increase instead of being diminished, while the present laws
exist ? — I am sure, that so far as the evils of Ireland are to be
attributed to the penal code, they must accumulate instead of di-
minish by the continuance ; holding out, as they do, a tempta-
tion to a foreign enemy, and mixed with other matters rendering
life and property insecure.
Is there any Catholic tenet whatever that renders a divided
allegiance necessary in political objects, between the government
550 DANIEL O'CONNELL, ESQ. EXAMINED.
and any other foreign power whatsoever ? — Certainly not ; the al-
legiance of the Roman Catholics, to be consistent with their reli-
gion, should be undivided and unconditional ; that is, subject to
no other condition than that which the law of the particular state
directs it should be attended with.
You apply that to civil and political allegiance ? — To any thing
directly or indirectly civil or political ; if allegiance be coupled
with spirituality, certainly not with spirituality, because the spi-
ritual head of the Catholic church is in Rome ; but if he were to
invade these dominions, or order any invasion, there is no Pro-
testant would be more ready, or shew more decided zeal in op-
posing him, at every peril, than the Catholics, to the extreme
of personal hostility, and to the loss of life.
Is there any difference, according to the Roman Catholic te-
nets, between the allegiance which a Roman Catholic owes to a
Protestant sovereign, and the allegiance which he owes to a Ca-
tholic sovereign ? — Not the least ; they are precisely the same ;
unqualified as to all things temporal and civil, whether directly or
indirectly.
In the case of a Roman Catholic sovereign or a Protestant
sovereign, they are equally regarded as to spiritual points ? — So
equally, as not to have any exception whatever. In such case
the King being a fcatholic makes not the least difference ; the
King being a Protestant makes not the least difference.
Die Luna, 21° Martii 1825.
The LORD PRESIDENT in the Chair.
The Reverend James Doyle, D.D. is called in and Examined
as follows * :
Have the goodness to inform the Committee in what manner
the Roman Catholic bishops are appointed in Ireland ? — They
are recommended to the Pope by the clergy, or some portion of
the clergy of the vacant diocese, and this recommendation is
generally accompanied by one from the metropolitan and suffra-
gans of the province in which such vacancy exists ; and upon
this recommendation the appointment generally takes place. I
believe in every instance.
Is the mode of proposing the candidate or candidates to the
* The number of pages to which this volume has reached, has rendered it im-
possible to give more than a small portion of Dr. Doyle's evidence before the
Committee of the House of Lords. The parts omitted chiefly consist of evidence
similar to that given by Dr. Doyle before the House of Commons.
DR, DOYLE EXAMINBD. 551
Pope, uniform in the different Roman Catholic dioceses of Ire-
land ? — In substance it is, but not in the detail ; for in some
dioceses there are chapters, in others there are none. Where
there is a chapter, the persons to be recommended to his Holi-
ness are generally, in the first instance, elected by the chapter,
and afterwards the names of those persons so elected by the
chapter are submitted to the metropolitan and suffragans ; these
latter concur in the election, by approving of the persons whose
names have been thus submitted to them, or they make, in
their communications to the Pope, such remarks about their
character or fitness as may seem proper to them, and then the
appointment succeeds. If there should be no chapter in the
diocese, the clergy, who are called parish priests, assemble, and
elect in the same form as the chapters do where such chapters
exist ; and there have been some instances where all the serving
clergy of the diocese have been permitted to vote at such elec-
tions. I should observe, in explanation of what I first said,
that the electors, whosoever they may be, elect not one only,
but three ; however, the person whose name is placed first
among those three is, I believe, uniformly appointed by the
Pope.
How long has this mode of nominating candidates to the Pope
been in practice in Ireland ? — To the best of my recollection, it
has prevailed universally in Ireland since the death of the late
Pretender.
Prince Charles Edward ? — Yes.
In the interval between the Revolution and the death of the
Pretender, by whom was the nomination made to the Pope ? — I
do not know that there was an uniform rule ; but I have heard
that during that period, King James, after his abdication, and
his son after the decease of the father, did often recommend to
the Holy See persons to be appointed to bishoprics in Ireland.
Previous to the revolution, by whom was the recommendation
made? — Previous to the revolution, both in the time of the
Tudors and the Stuarts, when Catholics, the recommendation
was generally made in this way, that the reigning sovereign sent
a conge d'elire to the chapter, and they elected upon that, and
the nomination followed. The history of our church presents
us with some cases where the chapter pretended to the right of
presentation independently of the sovereign ; however, I believe
it was an established custom in the beginning of the reign of
Henry the Eighth, that the election should be of the kind I have
first mentioned.
Really by the Sovereign? — Yes, but in the mode I have
mentioned.
By conge d'elire and the Sovereign recommending ? — Yes.
Do you know whether the recommendations of the Stuarts,
552 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
after the revolution, were universally attended to ? — When
made I cannot say that they were not, but I believe they did
not recommend in every instance.
Do you apply that to the grandson of James the Second, as
well as the son ? — Perhaps I should not be correct if I extended
it to the grandson, without consulting books I cannot speak
with accuracy.
That privilege of recommendation was not extended to Car-
dinal York ? — I have never heard that it was in any case.
Was the mode of recommendation uniform from Henry the
Eighth downwards ? — There was no Catholic sovereign but
Mary after Henry the Eighth, with the exception of James the
Second.
But in the case of James the Second, and the subsequent cases
to which you have alluded, were the recommendations made in
the same form as they were by Henry the Eighth ? — After the
abdication of the Stuarts, I do not believe there was any regu-
larity, because they, being in a foreign country, could have no
communication with the chapters in Ireland, nor did those
chapters always exist in Ireland ; so I think, that during the
period of their living upon the Continent, when applied to to
employ, as it were, their influence at Rome, they recommended
an individual as if from themselves personally to his Holiness,
and that the appointment of such individual almost uniformly
followed upon such their recommendation.
Are the Committee to understand that the nomination of a
certain number of candidates to the Pope took place subse-
quently to the cessation of the privilege of nomination which
had been allowed to the Stuart family ? — I think so.
Can you state the manner in which the Catholic bishops of
Ireland were elected during the time of Queen Elizabeth, James
the First, and Charles the First? — During that time our history
shews that the appointments were made by the Pope, some-
times at the entreaty of a nobleman resident in Ireland, some-
times through this or that influence, but there was no uniform
rule.
Are there instances of the issuing a conge d'elire by the
sovereigns during those reigns ? — No, not one, to my know-
ledge ; I do not think they ever attempted it.
During those reigns the Pope exercised a direct nomination ?
— Yes.
Do you know by what authority the different modes of re-
commending candidates to the Pope in the different dioceses
were established? — It grew up, I may say, gradually.
The candidates are nominated to the Propaganda, are they
not ; is not that the channel to the Pope ? — The usual channel
is through the Prefect to the Propaganda,
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 553
Are there any instances of the Pope rejecting the whole of
the candidates ? — I know of not one.
Are there in Ireland translations from one diocese to another,
with the exception of from the bishoprics to the arch-
bishoprics ? — There might ; but I have no knowledge that
such translations did occur.
Is it now the practice ? — No ; it is not at present.
Are there any instances of persons appointed in later times
not natives of Ireland ? — No, in no instance whatever ; the last
person, being a foreigner, and appointed to a see in Ireland,
seems to me to have lived about the year 1645. I infer that he
was a stranger, because I find his signature to a council held
about that time in the province of Dublin ; and he is called by
a name, which to me appears to be that of a Spaniard. How-
ever, it is very probable that he might have been an Irishman,
who adopted that Spanish name during his studies abroad.
Is the power of the Pope to nominate directly either a native
or a foreigner to a Roman Catholic bishopric in Ireland, now
acknowledged by the Roman Catholic church in Ireland ? — It is
acknowledged by us ; he has such power.
Has it, in point of fact, ever been exercised ? — It has not, in
point of fact, ever been exercised to my knowledge.
Has any attempt been made to exercise it ? — There has not.
But he has the right ? — I conceive he has.
What oaths are taken by the bishops ? — We take the oath of
canonical obedience to the Pope, which means that we are to
obey him as the head of the church, according or agreeably to
the discipline as found established in the sacred canons. We
insert in the oath a clause, Salvo meo Ordine ; which implies,
that the obedience which we promise to him is not to be under-
stood so as to trench upon our own rights as bishops, or any
rights of the church in which we are bishops.
Can you furnish the Committee with a copy of that oath ? —
I have not got one ; but there is a Roman Catholic bishop resi-
dent in London, who would willingly furnish such an oath,1 — •
Doctor Poynter, the vicar apostolic.
Are there more oaths than one, or more engagements or ac-
knowledgments than one ? — Only one oath, and that oath, as
found in the pontifical, has been modified by the late Pope, at
the express desire of the Catholic bishops in Ireland ; for there
was one expression in it, which seemed to give offence to persons
professing a religion different from ours. It was this : " Here-
ticos persequar et impugnabo." The word persequar was un-
derstood by persons differing from us as if it imposed an obliga-
tion upon us, by the oath, to persecute in the ordinary meaning
of that phrase. The meaning which we attributed to it, was
only to fpllow up by argument, and to convince, if we could, by
554 DR, DOYLE EXAMINED.
proof. However, as it was an ambiguous expression, it was
struck out of the oath. There was also an objection taken, that
the promise of obedience, though canonically made to the Pope,
interfered with our allegiance to our lawful sovereign ; and
therefore there was a clause inserted in the oath which removed
that objection ; for it says, " Haec omnia et singula eo inviola-
bilius observabo quo certior sum nihil in illis contineri quod
fidelitati mete erga Serenissimum MagnaB Britanniae et Hiberniae
Regem ejusque ad Thronum Successores debite adversari possit.
Sic me Deus adjuvet et haec Sancta Dei Evangelia."
Is there any other oath taken ? — There is no other oath taken
by a bishop, except the ordinary profession of faith, which every
Christian may take as well as we. There is an oath taken by
archbishops upon receiving the Pallium from Rome, but I am
not acquainted with the form or substance of it, as I never had
occasion to take it.
When you state that in the oath you have alluded to, you
swear that you will obey the Pope, agreeably to the canons ;
do you mean that each individual taking that oath reserves to
himself the right of judgment how far what is commanded is
conformable to those canons? — I can say that as individuals we
do reserve to ourselves that right. But then there are many
canons which are of dubious import : there are others of them
which define the rights and privileges of bishops : those are
known to us: but upon those it is not the individual judgment of
the man that he is to trust to, but the universal understanding
of the bishops of the country in which he dwells. For instance the
bishops of France, and I might add, the bishops of Ireland, have
always maintained that many privileges belong to their order in
their respective countries, which the bishops of Belgium for in-
stance, do not claim for themselves. Thus then the privileges of
the episcopal order depend upon canons that are not always uni-
versal, but which may be local; and each nation, or the b'ishops
of each nation, understand by that clause of the oath, the privi-
leges with which their own order is vested, not only by the uni-
versal canons of the church, but by the canons and usages of
their own particular nation.
When you state, by the canons of their own particular na-
tion, do you mean the literal sense of those canons, or the
meaning they have received in the Roman Catholic church of
that nation ? — I mean the canons enacted in national councils in
that nation.
Can you state in what respect the national canons received
in Ireland, or any particular construction put upon the general
canons, is different from those which are received in other coun-
tries ? — For instance a particular church or the canons of a parti-
cular council, might define, that the authority of a general council
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 555
was superior to that of the Pope ; such canon may be received,
for instance, in Ireland or in France, and might not be received
in Italy or in Spain. It is in that sense I spoke. I might per-
haps deviate from the exactness I wish to observe if I descended
more minutely to particulars, and I have on that account taken
a proposition which seems to be clear, and at the same time to
touch the case as closely as perhaps it can be touched.
When you use the words Salvo meo Ordine, what are the dis-
tinctive privileges of the Irish church which you reserve ? — By
the canons of the church, I being once inducted into a bishop-
ric, cannot be removed from that bishopric unless I commit
a canonical fault, am tried for it, and sentence passed upon me.
There is a case where the canons secure to me a right which
every other man has not : for instance the vicar apostolic who
lives in this town, though he were to do nothing at all that was
faulty, could by a mere rescript from the Pope be suspended
from his office, or deprived entirely of it. I have a right from
which I cannot be removed more than the Pope can be removed
from his see, unless I transgress the law of God, and am tried
and convicted of the offence.
Is that a privilege peculiar to the bishops of Ireland by the
general canons of the church, or in consequence of any thing
peculiar in Ireland ? — 1 can call it a privilege, but it is a right
belonging to every bishop of the universe regularly inducted
into his see.
Do you conceive your obligations towards the Pope to be
limited by the words contained in your oath? — Unquestionably.
That it is not to go beyond what is expressed by the oath? —
Yes.
If the Pope were to reject any recommendation of any persons
proposed to be appointed bishop in Ireland, what would be the
consequence; must there be a fresh election? — That is a case
which has not hitherto occurred in the history of our church, as
far as I am acquainted with it; and it would be too, much for so
humble an individual as I am, to state what resolution the per-
sons concerned would come to in that event.
Would you object to an arrangement by which the crown
should have an influence in the election of Roman Catholic
bishops, the Roman Catholic church being of course secured on
all religious and ecclesiastical points, supposing such arrange-
ment could be made with the consent of the Pope? — As an indi-
vidual, I would object to any arrangement, even sanctioned by
the Pope, which would go to give an influence, direct or in-
direct, to the Sovereign in the appointment of Roman Catholic
bishops in Ireland.
Are there any peculiar circumstances in the state of Ireland
556 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
which would render such an arrangement objectionable there,
which has not been found objectionable in most of the countries
on the continent where the population is Roman Catholic and
the Sovereign Protestant? — The reasons which appear to me
principally are these : — In general, the ministers of state in
every country are anxious to intermeddle in ecclesiastical mat-
ters, and draw to themselves the patronage of the church, and
thereby frequently lesson the liberties of the people. I feel that
I am not only an ecclesiastic, but also a subject of the king,
and entitled to participate in the liberties of the constitution of
the country ; and I would therefore not agree to any regulation
which would have a tendency to diminish the rights or liberties
of the people, or to vest in the king's government a powerful
influence. In the second place, as a religionist, I have observed
since I came to manhood, that there have been uninterrupted
and strong efforts made to injure, and even to subvert the Ca-
tholic religion in Ireland. I have heard of private instructions
being sent by the British government to their Agent in Canada,
to withdraw from certain places there, Catholic missionaries,
and substitute less zealous for more zealous men, as well as to
diminish their number. Viewing, then, the systematic and
persevering and strong efforts that have been made for two or
three centuries past in Ireland, to impair our religion, and which
efforts have been perhaps increased rather than lessened of late
years; and seeing also, in the fact to which I have alluded, the
temper which still prevails in the councils of his majesty, or in
some departments of them, I would, under all circumstances,
protest against vesting the right alluded to in His Majesty's
government.
When were those instructions sent to Canada by His Ma-
jesty's government? — I will ascertain before to-morrow the pre-
cise time when they were sent ; but it was in the time of the late
Lord Castlereagh. The matter was mentioned to his lordship
by a Roman Catholic prelate, and he seemed to wish to make
inquiry into it, as if he had been previously unacquainted with
it; but the fact seems to us to have been ascertained beyond
all doubt.
Might there not have been other reasons for objecting to
those missionaries besides their religious zeal ? — It is very pos-
sible there might have been; but as far as the fact was dis-
covered by us, it appeared to have been founded on that motive
only.
»Should you have any objection to this arrangement, that,
previous to the institution of the bishop, the names of the per-
sons to be recommended to the Pope should be communicated to
His Majesty's government, leaving it of course open to his
DR. T)OYLE EXAMINED. 557
Majesty's government to make any such communications on the
subject of such appointment to the Pope as they might deem
necessary? — I would have an objection to that. I will take, for
instance, Silesia, a province in Germany, formerly belonging to
the court of Vienna, and which was ceded to the King of Prussia :
the inhabitants of that country were almost exclusively Ca-
tholics, and being so, the nobility and gentry being Catholic;
I should think any efforts which the Sovereign or his council
might make to subvert the Catholic religion could not be suc-
cessful against the people, who were thus united and almost
exclusively Catholic. But in Ireland it is not so: much the
greater part of the gentry are Protestants, the greater part of
the property of the country is held by Protestants ; their influ-
ence is exceedingly great; their numbers too very respectable:
when to these there are added the agents of government, if they
all co-operate in seeking to subvert the religion of the multi-
tude, I think they would have much greater chance of success
than the ^agents of the government of Prussia in Silesia would
have ; therefore, an arrangement which might be unexception-
able in Silesia might be very objectionable in Ireland.
If the person to be appointed bishop must be a person re-
commended either by the Irish chapter or the Irish clergy,
and subsequently approved by the Pope, how could the giving
to the government a knowledge of those persons previously
assist the government ii} the wish you suppose it to have of
subverting the Catholic religion ? — If, previous to the appoint-
ment, the names were to be communicated to the government
such is the weakness or corruption of man, that many individu-
als in the country would seek to gain the good will of his
Majesty's ministers, and desert, perhaps, their duty, for the
purpose of gratifying some individual in the country who
could forward their interests with such government. Now, if
the election were confined to a chapter, his majesty's govern-
ment might intimate to the individuals composing this chapter,
who would be a few, that it would be a thing acceptable to the
Sovereign if such a person were preferred ; or they might state,
that it would be very disagreeable to his Majesty's government
that another person should be elected. Thus it is, that if his
Majesty's government have a right to interfere previous to the
appointment, in the course of time and the working of events,
I think that, if a disposition existed on the part of the govern-
ment, that they might use it to the prejudice of the Catholic
religion in Ireland.
Although the person was to be recommended by the chapter,
and subsequently approved of by the Pope ? — Yes, even so.
At what period were those words in the consecration oath
558 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
taken by the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland, first omitted ?
— In the life-time of Pius the Sixth ; I think about the year
1793.
To your knowledge, have they been uniformly omitted ever
since ?— They have been uniformly omitted ever since.
Who exercises the power of the see during the vacancy ? — A
vicar capitular. Where there is a chapter, they elect the
person to administer the diocese during the vacancy ; that
person is called a vicar capitular.
Where there is no chapter ? — Then the metropolitan appoints
such vicar capitular.
Is it the practice in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland
for the bishops to have coadjutors ? — There are many instances
of the bishops having coadjutors ; but it is not a uniform nor a
general practice, and it is discouraged rather than encouraged
by the rope.
Who appoints the coadjutor ? — The coadjutors are generally
appointed in the same manner as bishops are appointed ; but in
the appointment of coadjutors, the wishes and feelings of the
bishop to whom he is given are principally attended to.
Is the person appointed coadjutor considered to have a right
to look to nomination to the see ? — He is appointed cum
jure successionis.
What is the authority of the Warden of Galway ? — His office
is quite a peculiarity in our church. J do not know that there
is in the universal church any one like his. I will, if it be
wished, explain it at more length. The warden of Galway is
elected by certain persons in Galway and the neighbourhood,
who are supposed to be the descendants of certain English
families who settled many centuries ago in that town. Those
persons assemble once in three years, as I recollect, and they
elect a clergyman to be the guardian, or warden as they now
call it, of their ecclesiastical concerns. This warden, so elected
by the clergy and people, is inducted by the ecclesiastical
vicars ; and then he is placed in jurisdiction to govern that
little church. At the end of three years, if I be correct as to
the number, the same process must be gone through again, and
his jurisdiction renewed.
Has he episcopal jurisdiction ? — He has what we call quasi
episcopal.
To the exclusion of any other bishop in his district ? — Not to
the exclusion ; for the Archbishop of Tuam has a right of visi-
tation, with some other rights, within that district.
Have not the metropolitans the right of visitation over all
the bishops within their provinces ? — They have not ; the right
of metropolitans has been greatly limited in the Council of Trent.
DR, DOYLE EXAMINED. 559
The only right, which remains to them in our church, is that of
receiving appeals from the decisions of their suffragans; but
there are very few cases indeed in which they have the right of
visitation.
What is the extent of the power of the warden of Gal way ? —
His jurisdiction extends to the town and suburbs. I believe
there are eight or ten parishes subject to him. Upon that
subject I may be in error ; but the error is not material.
By whom are the parochial clergy appointed in each diocese?—
By the bishop exclusively.
Does the bishop remove a parochial priest from one parish to
another ? — He may remove him if the priest consents to it, but
without the consent of the priest he cannot do so, unless the
priest be guilty of some canonical fault.
The question refers to translation? — He may do so.
Is that a frequent practice ? — Pretty frequent, not very.
By whom are the curates of each parochial priest appointed ? —
They are uniformly appointed by the bishop.
Is the money paid to the parish priest for performing the
ceremony of marriage exclusive of the money paid for the li-
cense ? — There is no money paid for the license, nor no license
granted by the bishops for the celebration of marriage in the
province in which I live, with the exception of the diocese of
Ferns, throughout which there is something which must be
given by the priest to the bishop on account of each marriage
which he solemnizes.
Are there banns published in the church previous to mar-
riages ? — No, it is not customary, in most instances, to do so.
Are licenses granted by the bishops for marriages ? — No.
Is it merely on the application of the parties to the parish
priest that the marriage is performed ? — Unless it be within the
prohibited time. The parish priest has a right to solemnize the
marriage of his own parishioners, on application being made to
him, without reference to any one; but if the parties should
appear to be related, within the prohibited degrees, or any
other impediment, such as a promise of marriage made to any
other person by either of the parties previously existing, re-
ference must then be made to the bishop.
In what manner are the deans and chapters paid? — They
hold parishes ; they have no particular emolument.
The deans and chapters have no particular emolument what-
ever ? — They have not : their's is a mere honorary distinction.
When a priest is appointed a dean, he has a particular parish,
which is usually annexed to that deanery ? — Not a particular
parish ; I do not know that particular parishes are at all joined
to deaneries in Ireland.
560 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Are the customary payments of parishioners ever withheld
from the parochial clergy r — I am sure they sometimes are, for in
the time of the Whiteboy system in Ireland, we found the people
complained as much of the dues paid to the priests, as of the
tithes required by the clergy of the established church ; and I
think I might state, that the priests very frequently are unable
to collect the customary dues from the people. This results
generally from the poverty of the poorer classes, and often from
an unwillingness, on the part of some, to contribute.
Are those payments ever enforced ? — I cannot say that they are.
I apprehended that in my own diocese, sometimes, persons very
poor might be obliged to pay something ; and, in order to prevent
the possibility of oppression of the poor, T prohibited the priests,
under the penalty of suspension, from withholding their ministry
from any, whether rich or poor, on any such ground.
Occasionally they did withhold their ministry from them on
that account ? — I believe there have been instances.
Is the rule, you state yourself to have laid down, general in
the other dioceses? — I believe it may have prevailed in some
other dioceses ; but I cannot say that it is general.
Would you apply it in any case where the person was able
to pay: — Yes, I would even there, because I think that money
ought not to be a subject of dispute between the priest and his
parishioners at all. If a man be not generous enough to give a
contribution to a priest who labours for him, and has devoted
his time and his talents to his service, I should rather go with-
out it, and live in peace : and that is the disposition I wish to
impress upon the clergy under my care.
Would it be felt by the peasantry in Ireland as a relief to
them, if the provision for their priests were provided from
some other funds? — I am sure it would ; a very considerable
relief.
If any provision were made by government towards the
maintenance of Catholic priests, should you think it better to
relieve the people from the annual payment, or the payment of
fees? — I should say that, with the exception of a few towns,
where there is a kind of annual payment distinct from fees,
every contribution made by the people to the clergy is made at
the time when the priest is performing some office for them, so
that all of them might be denominated fees in some measure.
If, then, 1 were to suggest any thing, it would be that all and
every contribution to be made'by the people, or accepted of by
the priest, should cease altogether, with the exceptions that I
have before mentioned, that is baptisms, marriages, and bu-
rials. I think the relief to the people would be very great,
ii the dues of priests were entirely done away ; and unless pro-
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 561
vision is made to put an end to them, they will be continued by
avaricious men in various ways, and the relief of the people
would not be attained. I would add, that in the event of a
regulation of that kind being made, the contributions at fu-
nerals, marriages, and baptisms, would be diminished by I
suppose one-half ; for now the people, knowing that the clergy
have only the precarious kind of support which they have, are
liberal on those occasions of baptisms and marriages ; but if they
saw that the priest had a provision independently of those,
many probably would give much less than they now do, and
some nothing at all.
Would you object to this measure being an isolated measure
separate from any other measure that may be in contemplation
for the relief of the Catholic laity ? — Yes, I should sooner lay
my head on a block than accede to the receiving any relief
whatever from'Government in a pecuniary way, unless the dis-
abilities under which the laity labour were first removed.
Would you object to an arrangement by which every per-
son obtaining a living in Ireland should memorialize the crown
upon coming into such living, for the usual stipend allotted to
his situation ; and afterwards, when promoted to a bishopric
or any other dignity, should memorialize the crown for such
additional stipend ; the crown having the discretion to grant or
withhold such stipend, but the stipend being once granted, not
to be forfeited or changed in amount, except for canonical of-
fence ? — I think there is nothing more just or reasonable than
that such an arrangement should take place, for I think it would
be very fair and very just that a man who expected to eat the
bread of the state, snould make known to the government who
he was, and that they should be satisfied he was a proper per-
son to get such stipend, I think that is just and fair ; but I think
the parochial clergy would do better to memorialize through
the bishop, or that he should be the channel through which
their memorials should pass. I hope your lordships would not
have in your minds a disposition to exclude the just authority
of the bishop, which he now has over the parish priest ; so that,
in case the priest were convicted of any fault, or unable to per-
form his duties, that he should not continue to receive such
stipend.
Is it understood, the memorial of the bishoj) in that case
should be received by the government as conclusive upon their
making that grant ? — That the government is to exercise [its
judgment ; but the bishop, in my opinion, would be the proper
channel to make the communication, in order that the parochial
clergy should not be holding communication directly with the
government.
2 o
562 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Do you think it would be desirable, in such a case, to throw
the livings into classes, annexing different salaries to them, in
some proportion to their duties? — I think there should be a
scale of the salary ; but 1 doubt whether that scale should be
regulated by the extent of their duties. I think it ought rather
to have reference to the towns or cities in which they would
dwell. It might happen that a clergyman in the country, in a
mountainous country, might have very laborious duties to per-
form ; and yet his situation is obscure, and he himself not ex-
posed to expense ; whereas the person in the town must be a
person of improved manners, pay more for a house, and be
obliged occasionally to entertain friends. There should, then,
be a scale ; but it ought not to be regulated, in my humble
opinion, by the duties to be performed.
Do you conceive that there exists a desire, on the part of the
Catholic church generally, or of many individuals in it, sup-
posing the arrangements referred to in a former question to be
made or not, to possess themselves of any part of the revenues
of the church of England ? — Whether such arrangement were
made or not made, I never discovered in others, nor have I
ever entertained myself, any disposition whatever to be put into
possession of any portion at all of the revenues or property be-
longing to the established church. I will add, that if any por-
tion of that property were offered to me, I would not accept of
it ; that if it were proposed to grant the stipend at present
spoken of out of the tithes received by the clergy of the esta-
blishment, I would not be induced to accept of it.
Without meaning to doubt that which you have stated, were
it possible to suppose such a disposition to exist on the part of
the Roman Catholic church, is it one that would find any coun-
tenance or favour on the part of the Roman Catholic laity ? —
Unquestionably not ; they would be more averse to it than the
Roman Catholic clergy, if more averse to it they could be.
Do you mean to say that there is no indisposition on the part
of the Roman Catholic laity to allow the established church to
continue in possession of all her present emoluments ? — I do not
by any means say that; for it may be that Roman Catholics, as
well as the dissenters of other kinds from the establishment, may
think that the present property enjoyed by the clergy of the
establishment is rather great for the means of the country. I
could not, therefore, say that Catholics would not, in common
with others, wish that the amount of that property were dimi-
nished, and applied to other uses of the state ; but I am quite
clear, that neither the Catholic clergy nor Catholic laity have
any disposition at all to possess themselves, in any kind of way,
of such property.
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 563.
Are you acquainted with the letters which were published
under the title of I. K. L. ? — I have seen them.
Do you concur in the opinion given in those letters of the
established church in Ireland ? — The opinions which I entertain
with regard to the establishment are these ; and as the letters
alluded to are many, and they may contain opinions which
might be misunderstood, I think it better to make myself re-
sponsible for the answer I here give, than for what is found
written in those letters. The established church in Ireland I
look at in two lights : as a Christian community, and as a cor-
poration enjoying vast temporal possessions. As a Christian
church, consisting of a hierarchy, and professing the doctrine IjfcLtv i
of the gospel, I respect it and esteem it more * tnan^ny other^ £fc , ^
cnu'rchin the universe separated from the see of Rome ; but I *"
do unquestionably think that the amount of property enjoyed
by the ministers of that church is prejudicial to the interests of
the established religion in Ireland, as well as to the interests of ^?t
the country. I have, therefore, given to your lordships my
feelings and opinions in those words most explicitly ; and I be-
lieve that they are the same in substance as those expressed in
the letters alluded to, if those letters be understood in the sense
in which I understand them myself.
Do you entertain any objections to the establishment of the
Church of England in Ireland, in the respect now adverted to,
which a Protestant might not equally feel ? — I do not suppose
that I do.
Would the objection to tithes, as they now stand, be removed
in any degree by giving admissibility to political power to the
Roman Catholic laity ? — Yes ; I do conceive that they would
be greatly removed.
In what way ? — I conceive that the removal of the disqualifi-
cations under which Roman Catholics labour would lessen con-
siderably those feelings of opposition which they may at present
entertain with regard to the establishment, chiefly lor this rea-
son, that whilst we labour under the disabilities which now
weigh upon us, we find that the clergy of the establishment,
being very numerous and very opulent, employ their influence
and their opulence in various ways in opposing the progress of
our claims ; and I do think, that if those claims were once ad-
justed, and the concessions which we desire granted, the country
would settle down into a habit of quiet, and that we would no
longer feel the jealousy against the clergy of the establishment
which we now feel ; because that jealousy which we do feel
arises chiefly from the unrelaxed efforts which they have almost
universally made to oppose our claims. We would view them
then, if those claims were granted, as brethren labouring in the
202
DOYLE EXAMINED.
same vineyarcLas ourselves, seeking to promote the interests of
our common country.
How would tithes become the less objectionable, considering
they are to be paid by a people chiefly engaged in tillage of
land ? — I think if the present Tithe Composition Bill were uni-
versally adopted, or a compulsory clause inserted in it, and the
tithe levied by an acreable tax, that would excite infinitely less
discontent than exists at present. I would state one cause of
that opinion to your lordships. I hold myself about a dozen
acres of land, which I employ in rearing a little hay for my
horses, and feeding two or three cows for my household. I
have one field of about three acres which ran to moss ; and my
steward told me it was necessary, for the purpose of rendering
it useful, that it should be broken up. I hesitated long to do
so, because I should thereby subject myself to a heavy tithe.
If the matter were regulated by tax, that apprehension would
not prevail in my mind, and I would not hesitate to improve
my farm. I will mention another instance. I was walking in
one of his meadows with a farmer who held a large tract of
land, and which meadow he had neglected to mow. I asked
him why so much grass was left upon the surface. He stated,
that he left it there for his cattle to eat in the winter ; for that
if he had cut it and saved it for them, he would have been
obliged to pay tithe. If, then, the Tithe Composition Act were
enforced, neither of those objections would have arisen in our
minds, nor similar objections in the minds of thousands of people
in Ireland, who feel what touches them immediately, though
they would be blind to what is remote.
Is not the payment of tithes to the Roman Catholic clergy
enjoined by your catechism ; specially enjoined before the year
1817, omitted in 1817, and renewed in 1819 ? — There are seve-
ral catechisms in Ireland. I am acquainted only with that in
use in the diocese in which I live ; that was one drawn up by a
late Archbishop of Cashel, of the Ormond family, and he trans-
lated it almost literally from a catechism that was in use on the
continent ; it was afterwards revised by the Catholic archbishops
of Ireland and printed. There are several editions of the Ca-
techism which was originally published by Doctor Butler, as
also of that approved by the four archbishops. The command
of the church alluded to, which says, " Fay tithes to your
pastor," was a literal translation from the original ; this was
found to be a question or answer that might give offence, and
it was corrected in the edition to which your lordships have re-
ferred. But I have never known, nor do I suspect in my mind
« — I am upon my oath before your lordships and before God— —
I do not know that it was ever thought of by any one that this
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 565
command had reference to the payment of the tithes which we
owe to the Protestant clergy as to be made to ourselves ; it was
always understood as only obliging us to contribute to the sup-
port of our pastors — an obligation which is derived from a much
higher authority than that of the catechism of the church.
Is not that injunction now contained in the catechism circu-
lated in England, under the authority of the vicar apostolic ? — •
I do not know ; but I am quite sure, that wherever it is circu-
lated, it is understood by our people as I have stated.
Is it not much better altered ? — It is much better ; but we
have no copyright in this catechism, and the printers in the
country towns print them off without consulting us at all.
This catechism, you conceive, has not had any special autho-
rity from the church in its circulation ? — No, it has not.
Are you aware of any authority having been given for the
renewal of this passage in 1819 ? — Not only am I not aware of
any authority being given for its renewal in 1819, but I am
satisfied there was no such authority given ; and there is not
any Catholic bishop in Ireland who will not watch carofully to
prevent the insertion of those words.
Authority was given for leaving out those words ? — Yes.
And no authority given for their re-insertion ? — Just so.
As you are aware that the Roman Catholic laity look for re-
storation of certain rights, which their ancestors formerly pos-
sessed, namely, seats in Parliament, fyc. ; do you conceive that the
Roman Catholic church looks for a restoration of similar rights
exercised by their predecessors ? — Not at all ; we never thought
of such a thing. The right of sitting and voting in Parliament
is derived from the baronial title of the bishop in the established
church, and not from his episcopal character ; and we would
think it destructive, (I would not use a weaker word) that any
of our bishops should be admitted into the legislative assembly.
It is a thing quite foreign from our thoughts. God forbid that
it should ever enter into the minds of others.
You have said that you consider the ecclesiastical authorities
and functions of the bishops confined to the church of Rome ?
— To the church in communion with the see of Rome ; we do
not recognise as lawful the mission or jurisdiction of any other
church.
Entertaining those tenets, how do you conceive that a Roman
Catholic ecclesiastic can recognise and engage for the maintain-
ance of a Protestant ecclesiastical establishment ? — I do not see
any thing more easy than that, because the state in which we
live has been pleased in its wisdom to establish a certain mode
of worship, and to give certain immunities and privileges to the
clergy of that establishment ; this entering into the state as an
566 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
integral part, why should not we support the state which sup-
ports that establishment. I do not see, certainly, how that in-
terferes at all with our tenets ; but I view it just in that light
in which I have placed it before your Lordships.
In the address of the Roman Catholic bishops to their clergy,
published at the end of last year, and to which your name is
affixed, it appears that you object to the possession of the bible
by the Roman Catholic laity ; does that apply to the bible
attempted to be circulated by the Bible Society, or does it
equally apply to any other version of the scriptures, such as
that called the Rheims or Douay version ? — It applies to the
version sought to be circulated by the Bible Society amongst
us ; and not to the Rheimish or Douay version, which is sanc-
tioned by our prelates. That we have no aversion to the read-
ing of the bible, and to the possession of it by the laity of our
church, is best proved by the great many editions it has gone
through in Ireland, under our express sanction ; and to which
editions there is affixed a rescript of Pius the Sixth, directed to
a prelate in Italy called Martini, who had translated the bible
out of the vulgate into the Italian language. We prefix this
rescript of Pius the Sixth to our editions in English of the
bible, in order to show, that not only we, but the head of our
church is joined with us, in exhorting the faithful to read the
word of God. We have not only procured editions of the
bible ; I believe three by Coyne, two by O'Reilly, and one by
Cross (perhaps it is two) ; but this very year we have procured
a stereotype edition of the bible, of a small print and low price,
to circulate it among all ; so that, of all the things said of us,
there is not any thing said of us more opposed to truth, than
that we are averse to the circulation of the word of God.
Have the editions which have been circulated of the Douay
or Rheims translations been accompanied with notes ? — They
have very short notes.
You think it necessary that notes should accompany the
bible, for the purpose of explanation ? — In our country, where
religious controversy prevails to such an extent, I do think
it necessary that short notes, explanatory of the texts on which
our differences turn, should be prefixed to the bible.
You consider yourselves pledged to all matters contained in
those notes ? — No, not by any means. On the contrary, there
were notes affixed, I believe, to the Rheimish Testament, which
were most objectionable ; and on being presented to us, we
caused them to be expunged. The notes carry, in our edition
of the bible, no weight ; for we do not know the writers of
many of them. If we find them clear enough in explanation of
doctrine, we leave them there ; but whenever we find any thing
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 567
exceptionable we put it out, as we have done in the cases I have
referred to.
But those published with the objectionable notes were pub-
lished by authority of the bishops ? — The translation was made
at Douay and Rheims, without our knowledge perhaps ; and
when we found it in circulation, and examined it, we found it
to be correct, and then we approved of it ; which approbation
refers to the text, without the exceptionable notes, as stated in
my last answer.
Have you in any instances allowed the circulation of the
bible among the laity without notes ? — I do not know that we
have.
It appears, by this address, that you direct that all religious
tracts, circulated by certain societies, shall be restored to their
owners or destroyed, except bibles and testaments, which you
direct to be given to the parish priest. Supposing that direc-
tion disobeyed, what are the consequences to those who may
disobey them ; are they visited with any consequences ? — Really
I do not know that they are. I do not think we ever inquired
into the disobedience or non-observance of what is there en-
joined ; for we are confident the people will do what we recom-
mend to them in religious matters ; and having promulgated
what we think it their duty to perform, we leave the matter
there.
Have you heard, or have you any knowledge, that the sacra-
ments of the church have been refused to those who have been
in possession of such books, and have not delivered them up in
consequence of the admonition ? — I have not heard of any such
thing ; before your lordships, and before God, I never did.
Could it have been done in any part of Ireland and you not
know it ? — I think it might, and I am quite assured there arje
amongst our clergy persons of so warm and heated feelings, .at*
to do precisely what has been mentioned ; but I have state"!!
before, that I do not know of its having been done ; that r^
might have been done, I am quite sure, considering the charac-
ter of some of our young clergymen, and old ones too. We
have got enthusiastics in all churches.
You would not think it a necessary part of Roman Catholic
discipline that the sacraments of the church should be refused
for disobedience to such an order ? — Oh no, it is not a matter of
that moment ; it is a serious thing to refuse sacraments.
Or that they should be subject to penances ? — No ; it is a
matter of quiet expostulation, not reduced to any thing like
trial or punishment.
Would the priest, so refusing the sacrament, be subject to
ecclesiastical censure, if his conduct were known ? — Supposing
563
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
there were a priest, who required a Catholic parishioner to give
up those books, if the Catholic parishioner retained ihem, ap-
proving thereby of the doctrine contained in them, we would
not subject a priest to any penalty for withholding sacraments
from that man, for it would appear that he was adopting that
doctrine, and separating himself from us ; but if the priest re-
quired a man to give up those books, and the man said, I will
not, because I find some passages which are amusing, or some
instructive, or my landlord gave them to me, and I will not go
back with them ; if the priest refused sacraments to a man act-
ing thus, we would reprimand the priest, and leave the man at
peace.
The only case, in which the priest could be justified in with-
holding the sacraments, would be that of a suspicion on his
mind that the person retaining them was a separatist from the
J^^^^ehurch of Rome ? — Precisely so, or becoming one ; on that
r JLc " ground only. I read every Kind of book myself, and should be
* if. glad that every'tatholicTiad an improved mind, and were suf-
Wc**-* tf| ficiently educated to be able to read every book; and then I
-N/j^hould be glad if they read every possible book ; but the igno-
J\ T .fant people are very easily seduced by a plausible statement.
? »5*7j /You stated that some notes to the Rheimish and Douay Tes-
: lament had been expunged ; do you recollect on what account
they were expunged ? — They were expunged on this account,
tttyt they seemed to favour a spirit of persecution in our
- church, of persons who differed from us in religious faith.
*~j&o you think it necessary or desirable, that in any notes
"which are retained in those translations, anything more should
.^ be done than stating the grounds of your difference with the
*v*^ established church? — That is all I would ever wish to see in
;.(v . such notes ; that the note would state what we conceive to be
the true meaning of the text, leaving every thing on the other
eide entirely out ; for we do not wish so much to confute what
we conceive the errors of others, as to inculcate our own
doctrine.
Do you consider it desirable any note should be expunged
which you consider as reflecting uncharitably on other religions?
— Undoubtedly.
Do you know that the doctrine of exclusive salvation in the
Church of Rome is preached in Ireland by your parochial
clergy to their flocks ? — I think it is preached by the parochial
clergy of every church in Ireland, as well as ours ; so that in
that I do not suppose there is any difference between one church
and another. The doctrine of exclusive salvation is found,
as expressly stated, in the eighteenth article of the Thirty -nine
Articles of the Established Church, I think, as in any of our
DR, DOYLE EXAMINED. 569
creeds : besides, that profession of faith adopts the Athanasian
Creed, which also establishes exclusive salvation ; so that I do
not know of any church the ministers of which do not preach
exclusive salvation in one sense or another; for it is in my
opinion a doctrine common to every sect of Christianity.
Is the pope's authority received by the Irish Roman Catholic
church as supreme in matters of faith and morals ? — We re-
cognise him as the head of our church, and therefore give him
the executive authority. But that is limited by theTacred
canons : he cannot create new articles of faith.
Are papal bulls received in Ireland ? — They are.
For what purposes? — Suppose a bull, like that which is
published in the pamphlet that was in the hands of a noble lord,
wherein he makes a regulation that has reference to a sect of
infidels, and also to the Bible Society ; we received that, as I
explained to your lordships, by translating it into the English
language and giving it circulation : it is thus that we receive
them. But we would not receive any bull that would trench
on our rights as a national church.
Would it be objected to, that the publication of all bulls
should be subject to the royal license ? — Bulls are very sel-
dom or never issued by our church ; communications from
Rome come in the form of letters generally. In writing a
letter, there are two persons concerned, the person writing and
the person receiving ; and for us to engage to submit a letter
of that kind to authority, without the concurrence of the pope,
our doing so would, perhaps, not be consistent with the reve-
rence we owe him, as the head pastor of the church; but at the
same time, as far as I am personally concerned, and know of
those communications, I should have no objection in the world
that every one of them were posted at Charing-Cross.
Are they chiefly on spiritual matters? — They are, almost
exclusively ; that there is one which partakes more of a tem-
poral nature, than any I have ever seen before, as it refers to
the Bible Society.
How do you distinguish in all cases between a spiritual and
a temporal interference ? — I do not think it is very difficult for
us, at present; because those things that are of a spiritual or
religious nature obviously regard the articles of our creed, as
they are found in our profession of faith, or those moral actions
of ours which might or might not be contrary to the commands
of God. The temporal matters are either exclusively of a civil
or temporal kind, or they are of a mixed kind. With regard
to those of a civil or temporal kind, such as the old bulls of
the pope, regarding the rights of princes, and such things ;
those are quite obviously not to be classed with things of a
570
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
religious or spiritual nature. Then there are other bulls, or
other decisions of the court of Rome, which may be said to
be of a mixed nature ; such, for instance, as those which regard
matrimony. In matrimony we recognise, as it were, two
things ; the one the civil contract, and the other the religious
rite. The civil contract and all its effects we leave entirely to
the civil law of the country where we dwell : and when we
receive any communication from the pope regarding matrimony,
we immediately understand it as appertaining to the spiritual
rights of the parties concerned, and not at all as relating to
the civil effects of the marriage, or the temporal rights which
might accrue to the parties, or to their issue. I will explain
the matter more fully by a case : Suppose persons related in
the second degree of kindred were marriea ; this marriage
according to the law of the country is valid ; and the bishop
or the pope have a right to declare that such marriage is null
and void according to the law of the church. Here then the
rescript of the pope upon that subject would oblige us to think
those persons as living in a state of sin, whereas the law of the
land would recognise them as living in a lawful state. We
would be obliged to recognise them as man and wife, accord-
ing to the law of the land, and to maintain them in their
rights ; according to the law of the land, we would also be
obliged to preserve the rights of inheritance to the issue of such
marriage, whilst we consider this issue as illegitimate in the
ecclesiastical sense, so that if a son of that marriage applied to
us for ordination, we could not ordain him.
You would consider him as legitimate for one purpose, and
illegitimate for another ? — Yes, just so.
Are not Catholics prohibited intermarrying with Protestants
by the Council of Trent ? — No ; there is not a syllable about it
in that council.
Is the discipline of the Council of Trent completely admitted
by the Roman Catholic church of Ireland ? — No, it is not ; in
some places, for instance in the province of Dublin, we have
not admitted the discipline of the Council of Trent, regarding
marriages and other things.
Is the creed of Pius the Fourth, the creed acknowledged in
the Irish Roman Catholic church? — Yes, every Catholic admits
that creed.
Does not the last article but one of that creed declare every
thing done in that council binding ? — That regards faith, and
not discipline. The French church never received the decrees
of the Council of Trent regarding discipline ; and in a part of
Ireland such decrees are received, in another part of Ireland
such decrees are not received.
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 571
By what authority are such decrees received in some parts of
Ireland, and not in others ? — The mode of receiving the council
is this: the bishops of the province assemble, and deliberate
whether the discipline enacted at Trent would or would not be
useful to their church. If they think it useful, they imme-
diately publish a declaration, and cause it to be read by the
parish priest in each chapel; and thus the decrees of disci-
pline become published and have force. And if they think
that such discipline of the Council of Trent will not be useful
to their church, they separate and do nothing.
Do you consider the marriage of a Protestant with a Roman
Catholic valid? — It is valid, in a civil and in an ecclesiastical
point of view.
Have you never known a marriage between a Roman Catholic
and a Protestant, solemnized by a Protestant clergyman, dis-
solved by a priest ? — Never ; it could not be done ; nor by the
pope, nor council, nor any authority on earth, unless there is
a canonical impediment (which the difference of religion is not)
J- ^*^l-~f~^pm~H***>4^*~miH~iiHKgggm*^"~*r>r.-»,,+*^:^'^^^»v<*^ '
intervening.
Did you ever know an instance of a marriage of that kind
dissolved, by which the woman became an outcast? — Never ; it
could not be done.
If a Roman Catholic and Protestant intermarry, and the
children are brought up Protestants, does the Roman Catholic
incur any censure? — No, never.
Have you never known the Catholic clergy make it a con-
dition in a marriage between a Catholic and a Protestant, that
the children should be brought up in the Roman Catholic
faith ? — They advise it ; it is in the nature of religion, that the
ministers of it seek to make all the proselytes they can.
Have you ever known them refuse to perform marriages
unless that condition were acceded to ? — I have ; but if they
should, the parties can go to the Protestant clergyman, who has
equally the power of marrying them.
If the wife is a Roman Catnolic, and the husband is a Pro-
testant, and the husband converts the wife to the Protestant
faith, what course do you pursue with respect to her ? — The
person who ceases to be a Catholic, ceases to frequent our as-
semblies, and we know no more of him.
Are you sure there is no prohibition of a Catholic inter-
marrying with a Protestant ; or is it a fact that there is such
a prohibition, and that it is suspended in Ireland ? — There is
no such prohibition arising from the Council of Trent ; and I
do not know of any such prohibition by any council, except by
the Council of Chalcedon, celebrated in the fifth century ; the
canon of which certainly is not in use nor force ; so that if an
572 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
individual choose to act so, he acts in virtue of his own autho-
rity, whatever it may be for. I think very few priests in Ire-
land know even of the existence of the canon, as we have but
few canonists among our clergy.
In the year 1809 the late pope, by a circular letter addressed
to his Italian bishops, distinguishes between oaths of active and
passive fidelity to a temporal sovereign ; do you hold any such
distinction ? — We hold no such distinction with regard to a
legal sovereign, such as ours is. But in order to remove such
objection as might arise from the bare mention of such doctrine,
it may be necessary for me to state to your lordships the occa-
sion on which such declaration was made, as I recollect it. At
the time when the pope had been violently taken away from
his own dominions, and the French troops had taken possession
of his territories, they endeavoured to compel the subjects of
the pope to take an oath of allegiance. Many of the latter
refused to do so. He was applied to by the bishops, in order
to know what line of conduct they should pursue, as subjects ;
and he understanding well that he who has the power de facto
cannot be resisted, desired that they would take the oath of
passive obedience, that is, that they would not resist the usurped
authority of Buonaparte during the period he might occupy
their territory ; but he would not allow them to take, or sanc-
tion their taking an oath, so as to disclaim his own rightful title
to his territory, and acknowledge that of a violent usurper.
If I were to suppose a case, where the king of Denmark made
a descent upon Ireland, and occupied some of our towns, surely
this descent and forcible occupation of our territory for a time
would not free us from our allegiance to our lawful sovereign,
though it would entitle us to remain quiet, as otherwise our
heads would be cut off.
In the year 1813, Doctor Milner, vicar-apostolic in the mid-
land district of England, in a paper entitled " A Brief Memo-
rial on the Catholic Bill," dated the 21st of May, under his
hand, declared that the Roman Catholic subjects could not con-
scientiously swear to defend to the utmost the Protestant suc-
cession of this kingdom, and they might swear that they would
submit to it ; do you hold such distinction ? — I do not ; I be-
lieve that the Roman Catholic oath in Ireland has those words,
J< I have taken it with a good conscience, and will keep it, with
the blessing of heaven, 'till my death."
Are you aware of the existence of any persons who hold any
ecclesiastical or other high situations in the Catholic church of
Ireland, who entertain a different opinion from you upon that
subject ? — Never one ; I never heard of one who entertained a
different opinion,
Dfc. DOYLE EXAMINED. 573
Do you consider it desirable that the Roman Catholic laity
should be educated conjointly with the Protestant ?— I see no
objection whatever that they should be educated together ; on
the contrary, if by being educated together the harmony of the
different sects in Ireland could be promoted, I think that it
would be a*"matter to be desired.
If they were so educated together at Trinity College Dublin,
must they not have separate professors of their own faith to in-
struct the young men ? — That would not be necessary for those
who attend college, as many of those who enter there can lodge
in town, and receive religious instruction where they please ;
and even those who reside within Trinity College have sufficient
opportunities of obtaining religious instruction abroad on
Sundays.
In point of fact, are there not now some Roman Catholic
students in Trinity College Dublin ? — I apprehend some hun-
dreds of them. The Roman Catholics in Trinity College are
not obliged to attend prayers with others, and of course they
would resort to the prayers of their own church, at least on
Sundays. On other days of the week they might perform their
devotions in their chambers.
Of those who are educating for the priesthood, do you con-
sider it most desirable they should be educated in Ireland, or
on the continent? — I think it desirable, and even necessary,
that the great bulk of them should be educated at home ; but
I think it also desirable that young men of improved minds and
good talents should travel abroad, and receive those advantages
from travelling and mixing with communities on the continent
which cannot be had at home.
Are those who are educated on the continent on burses better
educated than those who are educated at home ? — I think the
education at home is as good as is to be had at most of the
colleges on the continent ; but our Irish students who receive
an education at the universities abroad are better educated
than they can be educated at home.
You make a distinction between the colleges and universities ;
have the goodness to state the ground of that distinction ? — At
the colleges on the continent there is generally at each a course
of studies ; and by attending to those studies, a young man
may get a certificate, and be rendered fit to serve in the church
in Ireland. Now, besides this course of studies, which is found
within the college at home, there are public halls at the univer-
sity, where lectures are given, where public examinations are
held, where public exhibitions are performed, where degrees
are given to those who have most distinguished themselves, and
where, of course, there is that emulation and excitement of
574 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
genius which tend to improve the mind and to increase the
knowledge of men. For instance, I studied upon the continent,
at Coimbra in Portugal ; but in the college in which I lived
there were several students educated who never attended the
university ; some few others, as well as myself, did attend the
university ; and hence there was a difference in the education.
In what do you apprehend the superiority to consist of an
education at the foreign universities over any domestic educa-
tion which can now be procured in Ireland ? — On the continent
they have men of more extensive learning to teach in their
universities that we can find in our colleges at home ; there are
greater rewards held forth ; genius is better cultivated ; and
for these reasons I have found that a person receives more in-
formation, and improves his talent more by studying at a
university than at any private college.
Do you think that a considerable degree of improvement
might be introduced in the present system of education for the
priesthood in Ireland ? — I do think there could be considerable
improvement in the system of education ; but at the same time
I am only an individual, and it would be presumption in me to
state that that which now obtains is not the best. I could not
undertake to suggest an improvement, considering that there
are men of great judgment and experience at the head of the
establishment at Maynooth ; and though I think there might be
an improvement in the system pursued there, it does not follow
that I think rightly. If your lordship had not asked me, I
would not have presumed to say that that was my opinion.
Would there be any objection on the part of the Catholic
Church to connecting with the present establishment at May-
nooth a course of instruction in other sciences, — sciences not
theological ? — If it be in contemplation to have it simply and
exclusively ecclesiastic, there is no necessity for introducing any
science more than those now taught in it ; because classics are
taught in it^ rational and moral philosophy are taught in it,
there is a regular course of mathematics, and natural and experi-
mental philosophy taught, besides theology ; so that, unless it
was turned into a university by the king, and other sciences
taught, such as law and medicine, I do not know what addi-
tional sciences can be taught in it.
Is chemistry taught in it ? — I think it is, but I am not quite
clear as to that.
Would not the extension of it in that way rather tend to
what you have disapproved of in a former answer, a separate
education ? — Yes ; I would not wish that ecclesiastical semina-
ries should be thrown open.
To what causes do you attribute the opposition which has
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED, 575
arisen to the education of Catholic children with others ?— Ex-
clusively to the efforts which have been made by persons
differing from us in religion to interfere directly or indirectly
with the faith of Roman Catholics .
Where such a suspicion has been altogether removed, do you
know any instance of schools being established, and continuing
to flourish, where Roman Catholic and Protestant children
have been educated together ? — I have got copies of the returns
made lately to the commissioners on education appointed by
His Majesty, and I find by the returns, that in three-fourths of
the schools throughout my diocese, Roman Catholics and Pro-
testants are educated together, without any complaint of
proselytism on either side. I find in the returns made by the
clergymen, no attempts made in those schools to proselytise.
In those cases they are educated together without difficulty ?
— Yes ; where such interference does not' occur, there is no
difficulty in carrying on the education of both.
Have you any doubt, that in the instances where no such
apprehension of proselytism was entertained, the Roman Catho-
lic clergy would feel it their duty actively to promote education
in such schools ? — I have not ; of course the clergy would be
the most zealous of those seeking to promote education.
Have not the Roman Catholic children been withdrawn in
many instances since those returns made to the commissioners ?
— I dare say they have ; but if they have, it was owing to an
interference with the religious tenets of the children, either
actually made, or suspected to be made ; so that the withdraw-
ing of the children has, in every instance which has come to my
knowledge, arisen from the conviction or apprehension that
such efforts were using.
Do the Roman Catholic clergy contribute frequently in their
individual or collective capacity to the establishment of schools
for the education of the poor ? — I do not think that there is a
priest in my diocese, however poor, or of whatever description,
who has not contributed his money and his labour to the esta-
blishment of schools ; and I myself have done every thing in my
power to promote education in every shape among the people.
What is the most approved and authentic summary of the
creed of the Roman Catholic church ? — The most approved and
authentic summary of the creed of the Roman Catholic church
will be found in me decrees of the Council of Trent, and in the
profession of faith by Pope Pius the Fourth, and in what we
call the Roman catechism, or catechism of the Council of Trent.
The latter work particularly is perhaps the most authentic
summary, because in the Council of Trent many things are
mixed up with the declarations of faith ; whereas, the catechism
576
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
of the council is confined, I believe, exclusively to matters of
faith and morals.
Is Bossuet's Exposition of the Doctrine of the Roman
Catholic Church considered orthodox? — Yes, quite orthodox;
and we consider it extremely good. There is another that
would be exceedingly useful to read, which is Verori's Rule of
Faith.
Of what date is that ? — Some time after the Council of
Trent. I mention its utility, because he not only expounds
what truly are the Catholic tenets, but he also removes a
misunderstanding which then subsisted in the minds of many
with regard to those tenets -, there is both the tenet and the
exposition, but in Latin ; and it is a work universally admitted
as a standard of our doctrine.
Are not the Roman Catholics taught that no change whatever
has taken place or can take place in the doctrines of their
church ? — Yes, that is a tenet of our faith ; and it regards, as
your lordships must have perceived from many of my answers,
the doctrine of faith, and not the discipline of the church,
which is eternally varying.
When Roman Catholics are required to profess their assent
to all things declared and found by the canons of councils,
what canons are meant ? — The canons universally received by
the church, or such parts of them as are received by the
church.
The whole of some, and parts of others ? — Just so.
When crimes, such as murder or treason, are revealed in
confession, is the confessor bound not to disclose that ? — He is
bound not to disclose it in any case whatever.
Has not such disclosure been allowed at Rome ?— Never.
Not in the case of a conspiracy against the Pope ? — No.
That statement has been made. It is a matter which I have
taken pains to ascertain.
It is said by Du Thou, in his history, that it has been
allowed in France ? — I would not believe, on the authority of
Du Thou, nor any authority whatever, that it could have been
allowed ; for we hold universally, in the Catholic church, that
the revealing of any secrets confided to the priests in con-
fession is contrary to the law of nature arid to the authority of
God, in respect of which no Pope or council can dispense or
exercise any authority, unless to enforce such law.
Would not such a regulation, were it adopted, defeat its
own purpose, as far as connected with the security of the State,
by preventing the habit of confession on those subjects ?
Altogether ; but by leaving it as it is, the abuse of it is im-
possible ; because when a criminal comes, if he should come, to
DR. DOYLE EXAMINED. 577
make known his crime to the priest, the latter endeavours to
dissuade him from it, if not perpetrated, and to repair, if it
be done, the injury he has committed, as far as it is in his
power. If, however, it were once allowed to the priest to
reveal the confession, under any circumstances, no criminal
would come to him.
Would a priest think himself justified, in case he received in
confession a knowledge of an intended crime, to take any
measure by which he could prevent the execution of that
crime ? — No, he cannot ; more than the means he uses with the
individuals themselves.
Could not he warn the person against whom the crime, is
intended to be committed? — He cannot. We adopt, with
regard to the secret of confession, an expression of St. Augus-
tine ; his Latin is very bad, but it expresses our sentiment very
strongly ; " Plus ignorat quod sacerdos a peccatore audit
quam quod nescit."J^ twn*. /%,•*»« 'HvUtA- tf */£<**- «ww 1
Are the miracles of Prince Hohenlohe generally credited in
Ireland? — I believe they are generally credited.
Are they considered by Roman Catholics as evidences of the
Divine favour towards that church? — I was personally con-
cerned in one of them : I have considered that an instance in
which the Almighty was pleased to interfere, and shew his
mercy to the individual who was afflicted.
Is it not likewise considered as a proof of the intention of
the Almighty to interfere for the recovery of the Roman
Catholic church from its present state of oppression ? — As a
proof that the Almighty has watched over a faithful member
of that church.
Have those miracles been acknowledged by the court of
Rome ? — The court of Rome has taken no cognizance of them.
The Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland still feel themselves
entitled to receive them as miracles ? — The bishop in his own
diocese has a right to examine into the fact, and to receive the
miracle if his mind is convinced ; but his declaration in its
favour does not bind any one.
With respect to all miracles now wrought, the right of
private judgment is exercised by every individual seriatim ? —
Of course.
Till they have been acknowledged by the Head of the
church ? — And even then, I think, a declaration of the Head
of the church on a miracle does not bind the faith of any one ;
it would be irreverent to doubt it ; but it is a matter on which
the Pope and a general council might be in error.
But it is a matter in which you believe, and which you
would, inculcate on those you instruct ?— It is not a matter I
2 P
678 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
would inculcate, because I think it unnecessary to do so : it is
not a matter which can form a part of such instruction as we
give to the people ; but I do believe it myself. It is the doc-
trine of our church, that miracles are wrought in every coun-
try, and in every age, when the Almighty may think it neces-
sary to do so for the relief of any of his creatures, who peti-
tion him in the spirit of humility and faith.
Do you not think it desirable, for the purpose of avoiding
any collision between persons of different religious feelings, that
no procession should take place, which would give offence to
either parties ? — I do think that such processions should be con-
fined to the places of worship, or their precincts ; to a small
enclosure about them, if it were necessary, or to the church-
yard, but not the street.
Are you acquainted with the service for the sick in the Com-
mon Prayer Book of the Established Church ? — Yes.
In that service, where a Protestant applies for the special in-
terference of Providence for the relief of the sick person,
where no human help can avail, does he appear to you to ask
for more than has been granted, in your opinion, in the case
of Prince Hohenlohe ? — Precisely the same ; but in the case of
Prince Hohenlohe it was granted in a more special and striking
degree.
Are you acquainted with the prophecies published by Pas-
torini ? — 1 have read them some years ago, but not lately ; I
know sufficiently the substance of them.
They have been circulated extensively, on a separate sheet,
among the peasantry of Ireland ; have they not ? — I do not
know ; the book is a large one ; that there may have been an
extract of that kind printed and circulated among the peasan-
try, I have little doubt ; at the same time I am very confident,
that if done, it has been done lately, by persons in the south, to
excite dissension in Ireland, and to produce appearances of dig
turbance. ,. , . ,
Have any means been taken by the Roman Catholic bishops
or clergy to discountenance that?— I have taken, myself, a very
active part in seeking to discountenance it ; and not only to
discountenance it, but to prevent altogether the reading ol it.
I have gone so far in a Pastoral, which I published in the b<
ginning of this Lent, as to call it the impious production o
over-heated mind ; and I doubt whether any noble lord could
designate it more strongly. Those words express what
' Are you aware of any other persons, holding the same situ-
ation with yourself, or other offices in the Catholic church, who
have taken a different part from yourself respecting it
DOYLE EXAMINED. 579
I have known other bishops to denounce it as a mischievous
work.
Have you known any who have given it the least counte-
nance ? — No.
Do you think their efforts have been successful in discoun-
tenancing it ? — Yes ; I am persuaded there is no one in my dio-
cese who gives the least countenance to it.
Have you any establishment in your church, parochial or
other, for the relief of the poor?— We have some Mendicity
Societies ; but except those, I do not know that we have any.
No parochial establishment ? — No.
What particular or general benefit would, in your opinion,
be produced in Ireland by the admission of the Catholics to
equal rights and privileges ? — I think that the general benefits
produced by it would be incalculable. I am quite confident it
would put an end to those religious heats and animosities which
now prevail so generally. I am also of opinion it would tran-
quillize the public mind effectually, and make us all sit down
quietly to promote our local and general interests. I also think
that the country being thus intent on its internal improvement,
the capitalists of England would find it their interest to go
amongst us, arid to employ, for their own advantage as well as
ours, their capital, and skill, and industry, upon those vast re-
sources with which Ireland abounds. It is in that way, I think,
our general interests would be promoted by it. As to the par-
ticular interests to be promoted by it, I should think, in a vast
community like ours, abounding with talent, and now becoming
well-educated, many individuals would shew themselves de-
serving of attention, and acquire those situations, from which
profit and honour would be acquired to themselves and their
families ; and if only one individual of the commnnity had this
prospect before him, that would cause all others in his neigh-
bourhood to look up to the state, and to labour with the go-
vernment for the public good. In fact, I think it would knit
together, and effectually secure the affections of the multitude
as well as of individuals, and make us one people immediately,
and I hope, in a few years, a very happy and prosperous people.
Those are my views, such as I entertain them in the presence
of God and your lordships ; and I may add, that I think pros-
perity and tranquillity will never prevail in Ireland while the
present political differences, arising from religion, are suffered
to prevail.
Do you think the Roman Catholics in Ireland have any feel-
ings upon that subject ? — Their feelings are more acute, in pro-
portion as their passions are stronger, than those of better edu-
cated persons.
580 DR. DOYLE EXAMINED.
Does not that feeling arise more from a sense of the fact of
degradation to which persons of their religious sentiments are
subject, than from any hope they themselves have of individual
benefit? — It arises chiefly from that feeling which your lord-
ship has just mentioned ; but they do expect, and the impres-
sion is strong amongst them, that if those religious differences
were taken away, the country would improve, and their own
condition become thereby somewhat better.
Do they not also expect that they would receive a more cer-
tain degree of protection, from the elevation of those individuals
of their own community, whose wealth or talent might raise
them to situations of distinction ? — I have no doubt that feeling
is general amongst them-
Is the admission
of the Catholic community to equal rights
anxiously desired by the Catholic priesthood ? — Most anxiously.
In fact, our situation is one of extremely difficulty ; one in which
we are endeavouring to conciliate the upper orders, and to
keep quiet the feelings of the lower orders. In this restless
state in which our society is at present, we feel considerable
difficulty and pain ; and we hope that if our claims were settled
by an amicable adjustment, we could go on without being
obliged to interfere in political matters ; that the country would
be at least relieved from the extreme poverty which is now so
afflicting, and our own condition improved thereby. It is im-
possible to estimate the state of anxiety in which we live, arising
unquestionably from the state of the laws.
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