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Full text of "Frontiers in oceanic research. Hearings before the Committee on Science and Astronautics, U.S. House of Representatives, Eighty-sixth Congress, second session, on H.R. 6298. April 28 and 29, 1960"

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H.R. 6298 

APRIL 28 AND 29, 1960 

[No. 7] 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Science and Astronautics 




55438 WASHINGTON : 1960 









H.R. 6298 

APRIL 28 AND 29, 1960 

[No. 7] 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Science and Astronautics 

- as &/W 






55438 WASHINGTON : 1960 


OVERTON BROOKS, Louisiana, Chairman 

JOSEPH W. MARTIN, JR., Massachusetts 
JAMES G. FULTON, Pennsylvania 
GORDON L. McDONOUGH, California 
FRANK C. OSMERS, JR., New Jersey 
A. D. BAUMHART, JR., Ohio 
PERKINS BASS, New Hampshire 

JOHN W. McCORMACK, Massachusetts 
GEORGE P. MILLER, California 
B. F. SISK, California 
JAMES M. QUIGLEY, Pennsylvania 
JOSEPH E. KARTH, Minnesota 
KEN HECHLER, West Virginia 
EMILIO Q. DADDARIO, Connecticut 

Charles F. Ducander, Executive Director and Chief Counsel 

Dr. Charles S. Sheldon II, Technical Director 

Spencer M. Beresford, Special Counsel 

Philip B. Yeager, Special Consultant 

John A. Carstarphen, Jr., Chief Clerk 

Frank R. Hammill, Jr., Counsel 

Raymond Wilcove, Staff Consultant 

Richard P. Hines, Staff Consultant 

Lt. Col. Francis J. Dillon, Jr., Staff Consultant 



Statements of — 

Brown, Dr. Harrison Scott, professor of geochemistry, California Insti- 
tute of Technology, Pasadena, Calif., and Chairman, Committee 
on Oceanography, National Academy of Sciences 

Lipp, Dr. James E., director of development planning, Lockheed 
Aircraft Corp., Burbank, Calif 

Rechnitzer, Dr. Andreas B., scientist in charge, bathyscaph program; 
accompanied by: Capt. John M. Phelps, U.S. Navy (commanding 
officer and director), Lt. Don Walsh, U.S. Navy (officer in charge, 
Trieste), Lt. Lawrence A. Shumaker, U.S. Navy (assistant officer 
in charge, Trieste), Naval Electronics Laboratory, San Diego, Calif, 

Wakelin, Dr. James H., Jr., Assistant Secretary of the Navy for 
Research and Development 







BR* bV 


CtfN ES 





(H.R. 6298) 

thursday, april 28, 1960 

House of Representatives, 
Committee on Science and Astronautics, 

Washington, D.C. 

The committee met at 10 a.m., Hon. Victor L. Anfuso presiding. 

Mr. Anfuso. This meeting will come to order. 

Gentlemen, this morning we are going to open up hearings in con- 
nection with H.R. 6298, a bill introduced by the distinguished chair- 
man of this committee, Mr. Brooks, and which was referred to our 

The purpose of this bill is to amend the National Science Foundation 
Act of 1950, to provide financial assistance to educational institutions, 
for the development of teaching facilities in the field of oceanography 
and to provide fellowships for graduate study in such field. 

Leading off this morning is a very distinguished professor, Dr. 
Harrison Scott Brown, professor of geochemistry of the California 
Institute of Technology, in Pasadena, Calif., and Chairman of the 
Committee on Oceanography of the National Academy of Sciences. 

Dr. Brown has a very extensive biography. Because it will be of 
interest to this committee, I am going to have the biography of Dr. 
Brown entered in the record. 

(The biography of Dr. Brown is as follows:) 

Biography of Harrison Scott Brown 

Professor, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena. Also : Chairman, 
Committee of Oceanography, National Academy of Sciences-National Research 

Born : Sheridan, Wyo., September 26, 1917. 

B.S., University of California, 1938; Ph.D. (chemistry) Johns Hopkins, 1941. 
Instructor, chemistry, Hopkins, 1941-42 ; research associate, plutonium project, 
University of Chicago, 1942-43 ; assistant director, chemistry division, Clinton 
Laboratory, Oak Ridge, 1943-46; assistant professor, Chemical Institute for 
Nuclear Studies, Chicago, 1946-48 ; associate professor, 1948-51 ; professor geo- 
chemistry, California Institute of Technology, 1951- . 

Prize, American Association Advancement of Science, 1947. Civilian with 
Office of Scientific Research and Development, 1944. A.A. (Prize 1947) ; Chemi- 
cal Society (award) (1952) ; Geological Society; Physical Society. 

Fields : Mass spectroscopy ; thermal diffusion, fluorine and plutonium chem- 
istry ; meteoritics ; geochemistry ; planet structure ; geochronology. 

Mr. Anfuso. Dr. Brown, will you please come forward? 
We are very happy to see you here, and we are glad you could 
take the time off and come from California to the hearing. 
Dr. Brown. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 



As you have already mentioned, my name is Harrison Brown. I 
am professor of geochemistry at the California Institute of Technol- 
ogy, and Chairman of the Committee on Oceanography of the Na- 
tional Academy of Sciences, and also I am a member of the Space 
Science Board of the Academy. 

I would like to thank the Committee on Science and Astronautics 
for the opportunity of appearing before you to discuss the broad 
problems of oceanography, and something about the urgency of these 

About 4,500 million years ago a series of events took place which 
led to the formation of our Earth and the other planets of our solar 

We know that when our Earth was first formed it had no atmos- 
phere and no oceans. 

We know that water did not exist on the Earth, or for that matter 
probably not on the other inner planets in liquid form. 

The planets retained water chemically, and over a period of time 
following their formation this water was released. 

Some planets apparently retained very little. The planet Mars, 
for example, we know, has some water. It has polar caps which are 
definitely ice. It has water vapor in its air. We know that because 
the polar caps migrate from one end of the planet to the other. But 
the temperature is so cold that water cannot exist in a liquid form. 
It exists as water vapor and as solid ice. 

In the case of Venus 

Mr. Anftjso. May I interrupt you for a minute ? 

Your information indicates that the water is not in liquid form on 
Mars ? 

Dr. Brown. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Anftjso. You may proceed. 

Dr. Brown. There is very little water. The polar caps are prob- 
ably all of an eighth of an inch in thickness, and occasionally one 
can see deposits of hoarfrost on the planet in those regions when 
night is just beginning to turn into daylight. 

In the case of Venus, for a long time we thought there was no 
water there at all. It seems clear that the temperature of the planet 
is quite warm, possibly over the boiling point of water. Recently, 
however, water vapor has been detected. It is questionable that 
there are any vast oceans. 

In the case of the Earth, however, the conditions were particularly 
favorable for the chemical retention of water during the process of 
planet formation and over a period of time — we don't know how long 
it took — water was released, and the net result was the formation of 
vast oceans which, were our Earth perfectly flat — thai is were we not 
to have mountains or continents — would cover the Earth to a depth 
of roughly 2 kilometers. 

There are about 300 million cubic miles of water on the surface of 
the Earth. 

We have reason to believe that at one time there was actually more 


than that, but we know that the rays from the Sun decompose water 
in the upper atmosphere, that the hydrogen that is formed escapes, 
and that the oxygen which results oxidizes the surface rocks of the 
Earth, and disappears. But the net result is a loss of water, and we 
believe that about 10 percent of our oceans have disappeared in this 

To ward off any qualms you might have, even were this process to 
go on into the indefinite future, we have another 50 billion years or so 
of water left. 

Fortunately for us we have continents. Fortunately we have moun- 
tains, with the result that the Earth is not completely covered by 
water. But two-thirds of it is. 

This large quantity of water greatly affects the lives of all living 
species, both in the water and on the land — not the least, man. 

The vast oceans determine in large measure what our climate is 
going to be like. 

The oceans provide vast highways for transportation. They pro- 
vide vast quantities of nourishment for human populations. And in 
the past they have traditionally supplied protection against enemy 

There are tremendous cycles which take place in the ocean. These 
cycles involve mass transport of water in the form of great ocean cur- 
rents. They take the form of the evaporation of water by the rays 
of the Sun, the condensation of that water, which then falls back into 
the oceans or over the land areas. When it falls over the land areas 
it returns to the oceans by way of the rivers. 

In doing this, the water erodes the great land areas and we find 
huge chains of mountains which at one time were as high as the 
Rocky Mountains which have been worn down by these processes. 

The eroded material goes into the oceans and gets precipitated in 
the form of sediments. 

These sediments frequently contain the remains of once living 
creatures and provide what we know as the fossile record, which, were 
we able to interpret it, would tell us the complete history of life upon 
our planet. 

Were we to drain the oceans in some way we would find a myriad 
of geologic wonders. We would find trenches which go down as far 
as 7 miles, and I understand you are going to hear more about that 
today from persons who have actually visited one. 

You would find mountains which approach Mount Everest in 
height. And in the oceans, as they exist today, we see a fantastic 
array of living things. It is complex. The array is enormous, and 
we have only begun to understand the interrelationships which exist 
among the various living species in the oceans. 

Unfortunately, man's knowledge of the oceans is very small com- 
pared with their importance to him, and it is amply clear to those of 
us who have paid some attention to them that as time goes by their 
importance to man will increase. 

Now, I should point out one other aspect of the oceans which is 
very important to us, to us creatures who are alive today. It is 
rather clear that the oceans provided the environment within which 
life had its origin on Earth, and indeed provided the environment 
within which a large part of evolution took place. 


Many of the remains of the very earliest living creatures are 
trapped in these sediments which I have mentioned, and we can 
take cores of these sediments from the ocean floor and by slicing the 
cores and looking at them with microscopes we can obtain a picture 
of the whole history of the evolution of living creatures. 

Now, I have mentioned a few of the things concerning the oceans 
which we know or believe we know. I would like to stress that what 
we really know is terribly small compared with what we should 

Considering that the oceans cover two-thirds of the Earth, our 
knowledge of them today is insignificant when compared with what 
we know about the land areas of the world. 

In 1957 the National Academy of Sciences recognized that ne- 
glect in this area might well result in our being placed in a precarious 
position, certainly from the scientific point of view, and in all prob- 
ability from the technological and military points of view as well. 

Recognizing that this neglect might well present serious difficulties 
in the future, the president of the academy, Dr. Bronk, appointed 
a committee on oceanography, and subsequently appointed me 

He did this at the specific request of a group of Government agen- 
cies, all of which were involved in one way or another with ocea- 
nography, and all of which were concerned about what appeared to 
be a lag. 

I should stress that in being asked to chair this committee, I am 
not an oceanographer personally. My own work is actually more 
intimately related with the space program than it is with the pro- 
gram on oceanography, but my interests border upon the oceans, 
and not being an oceanographer or connected with any of the ocean- 
ographic institutions, I believe I have been able to guide the com- 
mittee objectively. 

Over a period of 2 years our committee made a study of the status 
of oceanographic research in the United States — 

Mr. Anfuso. At this point, Dr. Brown, would you mind mention- 
ing the names of the other members of the committee ? 

Dr. Brown. I will be very happy to. 

Mr. Anfuso. They are oceanographers, aren't they ? 

Dr. Brown. Some are and some are not. 

I will attempt, when I name them, to explain why the individuals 
named were selected. As I mentioned before, I was asked to be chair- 
man. We wanted the directors of our three largest oceanographic 
institutions to be members, and these included Dr. Maurice Ewing, 
who is director of the Lament Geological Observatory at Columbia 
University, Columbus Iselin, who was then director of the Woods 
Hole Oceanographic Institute at Woods Hole, Mass., and Dr. Roger 
Revelle, who is director of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography 
at La Jolla. 

We also wanted representation from some of the smaller oceano- 
graphic institutions, and we appointed Dr. Fritz Koczy of the Marine 
Laboratory of the University of Miami in Florida, and Dr. Gordon 
Riley of the Bingham Oceanographic Laboratory at Yale University 
in New Haven. 

We wanted a person who was interested in and informed about the 
practical aspects of fisheries problems, and we appointed Dr. Milner 


B. Schaefer, who is director of the Inter- American Tropical Tuna 
Commission — that is an international commission of North and South 
American states, and his activities center at La Jolla, in California. 

Then we wanted someone who is well versed in engineering tech- 
niques and broad problems of science, but who is not an oceanographer, 
and we selected Dean Athelstan Spilhaus from the Institute of Tech- 
nology of the University of Minnesota, who had also had a great deal 
of experience with the Department of Defense. 

We wanted someone who is familiar with Government activities 
and Government structure, and we were very fortunate in obtaining as 
a committee member Mr. Sumner Pike, of Lubec, Maine, who was one 
of our original Atomic Energy Commissioners, who is retired and who 
has been happy to serve with us. His work with our committee has 
been extremely useful indeed. 

In addition, we wanted someone again who is not an oceanographer 
but who is familiar with the broad problems of modern biology, and 
we selected Dr. Colin Pittendrigh, professor of biology at Princeton 

We have since appointed two more biologists to our committee, Dr. 
Dixie Lee Ray from the University of Washington, and Dr. Per 
Scholander from the Scripps Oceanographic Institution in La Jolla. 

Does that answer your question, sir ? 

Mr. Anfuso. Yes, thank you. 

Dr. Brown. I should point out that we spent 2 years in our study 
during the course of which we held meetings and investigated the 
status of research at many of our major institutions and some of the 
smaller ones as well. 

Our major conclusion was that relative to other areas of scientific 
endeavor, progress in the marine sciences in the United States has 
been slow. 

I would like to discuss this area by area, if I may. Now, first, I 
would like to discuss the problems of defense in relation to the marine 

When we look at the evolution of modern weapons systems, it is 
amply clear that one of the major problems which confronts us is 
that of creating hardness in our missile bases. 

This is a very real problem on land. Coupled with this, we are faced 
with the brute fact that no matter how hard we might make a missile 
base on land, it is difficult to create it in such a way that people in 
neighboring communities are not going to be killed should there be 
an enemy attack. 

I personally have thought a great deal about these problems, and 
again and again and again I am forced to the conclusion that we are 

• 1 " "I 1 

being pushed into the oceans as a major answer to this problem. 

I believe that in another decade or so warfare is going to be con- 
ducted primarily in the oceans. 

I believe that the emergence of the Polaris submarine is a strong in- 
dication that we have already gone a long way down this path. 

Now, if we are going to fight a war in the oceans, it means we have 
to know something about the oceans. 

The victor, in such a war, will be that nation which knows most 
about the oceans. 

5543S — 60 2 


An analogy which members of my committee have used is that in 
the old days of the Indian wars the Indians often achieved victory 
over the whites, not because they were superior in strength, but 
rather because they knew how to handle themselves in the forests and 
in the woods. 

Similarly, in the oceans, we must learn how to handle ourselves, and 
it is for this reason that essentially anything that we learn about how 
to maneuver in the oceans, how to find things in the oceans, will help 
us should we be forced to fight such a war. 

Now, the problems of offense in the age of undersea warfare are 

We have long-range nuclear submarines, but these submarines have 
to find out where they are under the water. 

Now, how are they going to find out where they are under the 
water ? 

Well, one way is to recognize certain geographic objects such as 
mountains or valleys. 

If they cannot find where they are under the water, then they have 
to surface, and then they are in danger of being found. 

Similarly, how are they going to find out where they are without 
emitting radiation ? 

It is very difficult to communicate without giving out some kind 
of a signal or receiving some kind of a signal, and if you give out 
some kind of a signal then enemies as well as friends can find you. 

So the problem of self-protection in relation to communications is 
extraordinarily difficult. 

These problems really will only be answered as we learn more and 
more about the properties of water — sea water — and the properties of 
the life forms which exist within the sea. 

Let us take the analogous problems of defense. 

Today we find submarines using what is known as sonar. Here we 
take sound waves and shoot them down and they are reflected off 

The whole problem of the behavior of sound waves in sea water is a 
very complex one. For example, arrays of living organisms will give 
off background sound or noise. This has to be interpreted. 

Aggregates of living organisms can confuse and attenuate acoustic 
signals which we ourselves send out- 
All of these things make the problem of using sound waves for detec- 
tion purposes, or for that matter for communication purposes, ex- 
tremely difficult. And indeed, I believe myself that the long-range 
nuclear-powered submarine capable of carrying long-range missiles 
is in the long run the most serious military threat that the United 
States faces. And learning how to find such submarines is perhaps 
the most serious and difficult technical problem which we face today in 
the military field. 

I don't believe that this problem is going to be solved really until 
we learn a lot more about the oceans than we now know. 

If I might move to another area of defense, it involves the handling 
of submarines and it involves the handling of surface ships. 

More knowledge of (lie oceans can greatly improve our capabilities 
involving forecasting. The forecasting of tides, today, we pretty 
much tnke for grunted. But the forecasting of surf and of waves in 
the oceans is a relatively recent development. 


Today it is possible to make fairly long-range forecasts of waves 
with the result that it is now possible to route transport vessels along 
the path of least resistance, rather than the shortest path in terms of 
miles, and in that way shorten the time for a transatlantic crossing 
appreciably, and indeed the Navy now is making very important use 
of these forecasting techniques in the scheduling of their own trans- 

We have only seen the beginning as to what can be done, but already 
in savings to the Navy, the research that has gone into this has more 
than paid oil' by a considerable margin. 

Ice forecasting is another important area. We are now doing this 
fairly well, but there is considerable room for improvement. 

The forecasting of surface temperatures, and of surface and deep 
sea currents, can be very important from the point of view of aiding 
submarines in their navigations, in making full use of the rather newly 
discovered underwater currents which exist. There is one stream 
which has been found in the equatorial region which flows in an oppo- 
site direction to its surface current, and where the net waterflow 
corresponds to thousands of times the flow of the Mississippi River. 
Now, in principle, one can make use of these underwater currents. 
Submarines can just float along, so to speak, and in that way save 
fuel. This is perhaps not so important from the military point of 
view, as from the point of view of underwater marine transportation. 

The forecasting of marine biology can be extremely important. 
Again from the defense point of view, but also from the point of view 
of being able to forecast where you are going to find fish and how 
many you are likely to find of what type. 

All of these things can in principle be done if we were to know 
more about the oceans than we now know. 

I have discussed the defense problems. I would like to close that 
discussion with one other aspect, and that is, today we hear quite a bit 
of discussion about disarmament. I believe that all of us would like 
to see a world created which is a peaceful world in which arms are in 
some way limited. 

The submarine presents a very serious problem from this point of 
view, because today nobody knows how one goes about monitoring 

Any disarmament program must contain as an essential part, rules 
and regulations and techniques for the monitoring and handling of 

It may well be, as some of our committee members have suggested, 
that the law of the sea may have to be changed in such a way that any 
unknown — any vessel which is submerged, and which does not identify 
itself upon demand, is an aggressor. 

I point this out just to point up another extremely difficult problem 
which we have but begun to comprehend. 

Now, the next area of importance involves that of ocean resources. 
The population of the world is increasing with considerable rapidity. 
A large part of the world is badly undernourished, and the main aspect 
of the malnutrition involves a shortage of protein. 

We don't know how many fish there are in the sea, but we can guess 
that the seas can be fished considerably more efficiently than they are 
being fished at the present time. 


It is important that we learn how many fish there are, and where 
they are, in order to map out fishing programs that can help to relieve 
the situation with respect to food supplies which now exist. 

There is another aspect of the resources of the oceans 

Mr. Fulton. Before you leave that point, as a matter of fact then 
you are in the school then instead of being against more birth control, 
you are for finding more fish ? 

Dr. Brown. I am for a balanced program. [Laughter.] 

Mr. Fulton. Very good. 

Dr. Brown. The other aspect of ocean resources, which is extremely 
important — and we have but begun to appreciate what we can be done 
eventually — involves the mineral resources of the sea. 

You gentlemen in particular are well aware of the fact that we 
have continental shelves and that there is oil under the continental 
shelves. But from the long-range point of view, of equal importance, 
I believe, is the fact that there are minerals in the deep seas which 
in principle can be mined. Such elements as manganese cobalt, and 
nickel, I believe eventually can be secured from the ocean depths 

The other aspects of the oceans which should be studied intensively 
involves radioactivity. 

With the liberation of nuclear energy man has brought into the 
world something which has not existed on a large concentrated scale 
before — at least since the Earth has come into existence. 

We have to know what we are doing when we introduce these large 
quantities of radioactivity into living systems. 

We are today introducing radioactivity into the oceans by means 
of the explosion of nuclear weapons. We are also talking about in- 
troducing large quantities of radioactivity in the disposal of waste 
from nuclear powerplants. 

We are today introducing quite small quantities of radioactivity 
into offshore areas in the disposal of low-level radioactive waste from 
hospitals and from laboratories. 

It is terribly important that before these quantities get much larger 
that we understand what is going to happen to them. 

It is important that we prevent them from getting back into the 
food chain and then back into human beings. 

Now, the only way we can guarantee ourselves that they won't get 
back into the food chains is to learn something more about ocean cir- 
culation patterns, to learn something more about the habits of living 
organisms in the seas, and to learn something more about how the 
various radioactive elements which are disposed of behave in sea water. 

Certain elements, for example, like vanadium, are just concentrated 
fantastically by certain marine organisms, so if one were to dispose of 
a large quantity of radioactive vanadium, the chances would be good 
that this particular kind of organism would be killed off in that area. 

Mr. Miller. Aren't those primarily Crustacea? 

Dr. Brown. That is correct, yes. 

Mr. Miller. In other words, that includes the shrimp, the lobsters? 

Dr. Brown. I'm sorry I am not enough of a marine biologist. 

Mr. Miller. We do know it is crustaceans? 

Dr. Brown. That is correct, yes. 


So that the whole area of studying the behavior of radioactivity 
in the oceans we believe is a very important one. 

Now, last but not least, we have the whole area of basic research, 
and this we believe is the most important area of all. 

This is research which is done for its own sake, without any real 
thought of practical applications, yet the fact remains that practi- 
cally all practical applications stem from the source of basic research. 

The very nature of basic research is that the results which are ob- 
tained are unpredictable. 

I am reminded of a little story in this connection which illustrates 
just how we have difficulty predicting. 

One can project oneself back to the time when we were using lamps 
for illumination, and let us suppose that we were to establish a founda- 
tion to improve home lighting at that time. This foundation would 
probably give out all sorts of research grants to universities and to 
various organizations, and these research grants would almost all go 
to the pursuit of the obvious. 

Large grants would be given to study the improvement in the effi- 
ciency of burning whale oil; perhaps some of the more farsighted 
grants would go to the study of the habits of whales; the mating 
habits, and so forth. 

But one can ask, how much of this money would have gone to sup- 
port the rather remote work of Michael Faraday and Clerk Max- 
well? I believe that the answer would be very little, and yet their 
work provided the really basic foundations for the emergence of 

Similarly, when we speak of basic research in the oceans, we speak 
of work which is done where the results are unpredictable and where 
the practical applications certainly are unpredictable. Yet, of all 
aspects of research that I have thus far mentioned, I believe that it is 
the most important. 

Following this discussion of some of the problems, I would now like 
to discuss with you some of our recommendations. 

We based our recommendations upon the assumption that it would 
be possible for us to double the volume of basic research being under- 
taken in the marine sciences in the United States in the next 10 

It would be very fine if we could proceed at a rate which is greater 
than that, and I believe all of the members of our committee would 
like to see us do that. But there are certain limiting factors which 
are involved, and perhaps the most important limiting factor is that 
of technical manpower. 

It takes, well, really, about 22 years to train a scientist or an engi- 
neer these days. You've got to start awfully young. 

So you just can't turn on a faucet and have oceanographers pouring 
out of it. 

As a result we believe that we can double the number of scientists 
and engineers involved in basic research in the next 10 years, but it 
will be difficult to do more. Even the doubling is going to take a 
great deal of cooperation and a great deal of effort. 

In addition to doubling our basic research during the next 10 years, 
we believe it terribly important that we institute a major program of 
oceanwide, ocean-deep surveys. These are surveys designed just to 
make maps of the oceans, and what is in the oceans. 


These surveys would include detailed bottom topography, which 
incidentally would be of great use to our underwater navigators. 

They would include measurements of surface temperatures, of the 
distribution of temperatures in the oceans, of salinities, general chemi- 
cal composition, ocean currents, and so forth. 

Mr. Anfuso. These are the things we don't have now, is that right, 

Dr. Brown. We do not have this on a worldwide basis. 

We don't believe that all of this should be done by the United 
States, but we do believe it would be in the interest of the United 
States for us to plan on doing about 30 percent of it during the next 
10 years or so. And we believe that other nations can be persuaded 
to carry out other aspects of these surveys themselves on a cooperative 
basis. I will discuss that a little more later. 

Mr. Anfuso. Doctor, may I ask how long your statement will take ? 

Dr. Brown. I can trim it down to anything you want, sir. 

Mr. Anfuso. I would advise it, because we have other witnesses. 

Dr. Brown. Would you like another 5 minutes ? 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you. 

Dr. Brown. Fine. 

Now, in addition to the oceanwide surveys, we advocate substantial 
increases in the applied marine sciences, and particularly in the de- 
fense areas, in the areas of marine resources, and in the study of 
radioactivity in the oceans. 

As corollaries to the broad general recommendations we recommend 
a major program in education and manpower, increasing the output 
of marine scientists, a major program of ship construction, increasing 
our fleet of research and survey vessels from 45 to 85. When we count 
retirement of obsolete vessels this would mean a program of building 
70 new ships in the course of the next 10 years. We recommend the 
construction of shore facilities to go along with these ships. We also 
recommend the establishment of a major program on developing new 
devices for the exploration of the seas, such as the bathyscaph, which 
you will hear about today. 

The new activity over and above the present activity we believe will 
cost in terms of 1958 purchasing power, about $650 million over a 10- 
year period. 

This compares with the expenditures for oceanographic research of 
a nonmilitary nature in 1958 of $23 million. 

I would like to stress that we consider this a minimal program. 
This is a program which our committee considers to be absolutely 
essential from a long-range point of view, and when we look at it, it 
really is not quite as expensive as one might think considering the 
dividends to be gained. 

The pursuit of space for peaceful purposes under NASA has a 
budget, as I understand it, somewhere in the neighborhood of $900 
million. This entire program could be supported for 10 years on 1 
year of NASA's budget. And with that J will stop and solicit your 
quesl ions, if I may. 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you, Dr. Brown, for a very fine statement. 
I understand that you have an additional admirer here, so my colleague 
from California informs me, Mr. Miller, in the person of Mrs. Brown, 


who is a distinguished citizen in her own right. I understand she is 
a candidate for the U.S. Congress. We welcome you here, Mrs. 

Mrs. Brown. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Anfuso. Perhaps you would like to take the seat of a Congress- 

Mrs. Brown. Thank you. 

Mr. Anfuso. You may even ask questions. 

Mrs. Brown. Thank you. 

Mr. Miller. Mrs. Brown has a distinction as far as this side of 
the table is concerned : She is the granddaughter of William Jennings 

Mr. Anfuso. Dr. Brown, incidentally, before I ask you these ques- 
tions, let me say I am sure other members will have some questions 
to ask you. I trust that you will try to answer them as briefly as you 
can. so we can move along. 

What are the circumstances that led to the formation of the Com- 
mittee on Oceanography ? 

Dr. Brown. The circumstances involved a very real concern upon 
the part of the many Government agencies which are involved in 
one way or another with oceanographic research. 

This is a field of endeavor which cuts across a fantastic array of 
agencies. It includes the Navy, the National Science Foundation, 
the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, the Atomic Energy Commission, 
the Coast and Geodetic Survey, the U.S. Geological Survey, and the 
Maritime Administration, and I have probably left some out. 

Mr. Miller. Coast Guard? 

Dr. Brown. The Coast Guard, yes, thank you. 

Mr. Anfuso. Would you say, Dr. Brown, that your report repre- 
sents the viewpoint of most U.S. scientists concerned with ocea- 
nography ? 

Dr. Brown. Well, we haven't exactly taken a public opinion poll, 
but on the basis of replies that we have obtained when we have solicited 
opinions, I would say that generally the bulk of the marine scientists 
in the country would agree with the broad objectives of the report 
and with the recommendations that we have made. 

Mr. Anfuso. Now, your report implies, particularly in reference 
to obsolescence and inadequate number of research ships, that ocea- 
nography in the United States has been badly neglected. If it has 
been, will you please tell us who you think is responsible for this 
neglect ? 

Dr. Brown. Well, I think that the blame cannot be placed upon 
any one group, or any one person. It stems largely from a general 
lack of appreciation of its importance. I do know certain Govern- 
ment agencies have been doing everything they can within the limits 
imposed upon them by their budgets. 

I know that the Navy, for example, has done a fine job of spon- 
soring oceanographic research over a period of years commensurate 
with the funds that it has been able to obtain in order to carry it out. 
_ Mr. Anfuso. Do you think that other Government agencies, be- 
sides the Navy, share your concern about the urgency of this program ? 


Dr. Brown. I believe that all of the Government agencies which I 
have mentioned do share this concern. Indeed they share it to the 
point where jointly they approached the National Academy for the 
purpose of asking them to make this investigation. 

Mr. Anfuso. Now, Doctor, without going into details of pending 
bills on marine sciences, do you believe that existing legislation is in- 
adequate for the executive branch to fulfill its responsibilities in sup- 
port of a national program in oceanography ? 

Dr. Brown. Pardon me, would you repeat that, I didn't quite get 

Mr. Anfuso. Would you read it back ? 

(Question read.) 

Dr. Brown. I believe that there are many features involved which 
must be clarified, and I believe that these aspects can be — should be 
clarified by new legislation. 

There are many aspects of our recommendations which can be 
conducted with existing authorizations and within the framework 
of the existing structure, but certainly new ingredients have to be 
added to it. 

Mr. Anfuso. What would you say distinguishes oceanography 
from other multidisciplinary sciences, which warrants special legis- 

Dr. Brown. I would say perhaps the most important distinguish- 
ing feature involves the very large capital investment required in 
order to get started. 

You have to work in units, and the smallest unit involves one ship. 
One ship is very expensive, and requires the coordination of every- 
thing around it, so one cannot just sort of start in the marine sciences, 
you have to start in a big way. 

Mr. Anfuso. You suggested the doubling of research efforts dur- 
ing the next 10 years. What is the present size of this effort in terms 
of scientific manpower, do you know ? 

Dr. Brown. I do not know in terms of scientific manpower. I be- 
lieve that in terms of dollars 

Mr. Anfuso. Can you compare it with science and engineering 
efforts in outer space — for outer space ? 

Dr. Brown. I can compare it only qualitatively, and there it is 
tiny, extremely small. 

Mr. Anfuso. All right, 

Now, one important provision of the major bill now pending before 
the ( ingress is, and I quote : 

The Congress further declares that a coordinated Long-range program of 
oceanographic research requires the establishment <>f a Division of Marine 
Sciences in the National Science Foundation which shall include representa- 
tion from Government agencies having duties or responsibilities connected with 
or related to the seas and oceans, and oceanographic scientists associated with 
universities, institutions affiliated with universities, laboratories, or foundations, 
and which division shall be authorized and directed (A) to develop and encour- 
age a continuing national policy and program for the promotion of oceano- 
graphic research, surveys, and education in the marine sciences : Provided, That 
the long-range program for oceanographic research developed and projected by 
the Chief of Naval Research. Department of the Navy, and approved by the 
Chief of Naval Operations, known as project TENOC 1 10 years in oceanography) 
he Incorporated in the national program and policy. 

Do you personally and does your committee on oceanography agree 
with this provision of the bill ? You have read the bill, haven't you '. 


Dr. Brown. Yes. 

Mr. Anfuso. What is your answer to that ? 

Dr. Brown. This is one area where my committee differs with the 
National Science Foundation, for example, in that we believe that 
there should be some provision made in the budgeting of fellowships 
and scholarships to take into account the fact that we are always 
going to be coming up against the areas of scientific and technological 
endeavor where there are shortages, and where some kind of a com- 
pensation has to be made. 

Now, I believe that the philosophy of the National Science Founda- 
tion, broadly speaking, is correct, that most of the money should be 
for scholarships, which should be purely on a competitive basis with- 
out any reference to the field of endeavor. 

But a small fraction of it, I believe, should go into specialized areas 
where it is widely recognized that there is a crisis, an emergency ? and 
where, by putting that money there, one can catalyze educational 
activity in that area. 

Mr. Anfuso. Do your personal views differ from that ? 

Dr. Brown. My personal views agree with that entirely. 

Mr. Anfuso. All right. 

Thank you. 

Now, I am going to ask our distinguished citizen and Congressman 
from California, who, incidentally, is an authority on this subject, and 
he himself is chairman of the Subcommittee on Oceanography at- 
tached to one of our great standing committees of the House, and he 
has done an awful lot of work and probably dedicated the major part 
of his life in this study, and I'm going to ask him if he has some ques- 
tions to ask our distinguished citizen from California. 

Mr. Miller. I am always happy to see Dr. Brown, and Doctor, 
please disregard that statement from the Congressman. 

Mr. Anfuso. I mean it now ; don't take anything away. 

Mr. Miller. I am not an authority on anything. You can't be an 
authority in this field unless you devote your life to it. 

I am very much interested. Of course, the Committee on Mer- 
chant Marine and Fisheries and the Subcommittee on Oceanography 
are interested in this field, and I think you realize we have held ex- 
tensive hearings. 

We have plans for further hearings. 

Now, as far as the current bill is concerned, we would like to es- 
tablish in the Academy of Sciences a branch of oceanography, and 
I assume all other agencies would forgo their activities in this field. 

Has your committee ever studied this ? 

Dr. Brown. I'm sorry, Mr. Miller. 

Mr. Miller. Has the National Academy of Sciences' Committee on 
Oceanography — has it ever given any study to this bill ? 

Dr. Brown. To H.R. 6298 ? 

Mr. Miller. Officially to the bill ? 

Dr. Brown. The National Academy of Sciences has a policy of 
giving advice when asked for it. 

Mr. Miller. They haven't been asked ? 

Dr. Brown. Our committee has not been asked specifically for ad- 
vice on this particular bill ; no. 

55438—60 3 


Mr. Miller. Then I will not embarrass you about asking you about 
the details of the bill, because it hasn't officially been brought before 

Dr. Brown. That is correct. 

Mr. Miller. All right, I will confine myself to saying, Dr. Brown, 
through his chairmanship of this committee, has pointed up the neces- 
sity for activity and interest in this field. His committee is still ac- 
tive. You have not filed all of your detailed reports as yet, I believe, 
have you ? 

Dr. Brown. That is correct. 

Mr. Miller. So that it is in the process of getting these reports 

I want to point out for the sake of the record, that this field cuts 
across a number of agencies of Government. First, the Navy has a 
primary interest in it in the interest of defense, and that is the 
emphasis that has been given and one of the things that has brought 
it to light. 

The Bureau of Fish and Wildlife, or the Fish and Wildlife Serv- 
ice of the Department of the Interior has a major interest in the bio- 
logical field of oceanography. This is one that perhaps has the over- 
riding importance on the long haul. If we can bring some semblance 
of peace within the world within the next 40 or 50 years, when we are 
all gone, then the demands for the products of the ocean that we have 
not even begun to assess and evaluate, are going to be in the fore ; do 
you agree with that, Dr. Brown? 

Dr. Brown. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Miller. So that this is not a short-term program. We are 
behind in this program. 

We are not putting one-tenth or one-hundredth of the energy into 
this program that is so important — 70 percent of the Earth, the area 
of the Earth, is in oceans. 

The doctor mentioned things we get. We take magnesium from 
the ocean directly ; do we not ? 

Dr. Brown. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. Boron products come from the sea. 

But we don't know much about the sea, there are so many possi- 
bilities, and so forth, that this is a field that too much emphasis 
cannot be put into, and the thing I subscribe to, and I hope that this 
committee will confine its interests to, is not trying to go in and upset 
the relationship between other governmental agencies that are pres- 
ently working to — ad hoc committees and coordinating committees are 
beginning to work out the relationships of one with the other in the 
field of oceanography — but confine its efforts to trying to get some 
grants out of the National Science Foundation in the field of oceanog- 
raphy so that we can have the men that we so badly need in this field. 

Now, this is not a field — there is, I think, the doctor will agree, and 
those who follow him — there is no such a thing as a degree in oceanog- 
raphy at the present time, is there? 

Dr. Brown. That is correct. 

Mr. Miller. In other words, this is composed of people from other 
disciplines of science. They come in through chemistry, or engineer- 
ing, or physics, and then confine themselves or specialize in the science 
and the studies of the sea. 


Dr. Brown. Pardon me, may I just correct myself? There are 
two institutions which give bachelor's degrees in oceanography. 

Mr. Miller. They recognize the basis of these degrees is not a bac- 
calaureate degree in oceanography, but it is a degree in one of the 
disciplines of science, is it not ? 

Dr. Brown. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. You come in as a chemist, engineer, or physicist. 
These are the things so badly needed in this field. This is the short- 
age in the field. 

Before we get into that we have got to do something too to make 
this field a little more attractive. In other words, if scientists are 
going to go into it, they know they are going to have something. 

Let me use this as a sounding board, Mr. Chairman. There are 
two or three men sitting in this room who risk their lives every time 
they go into a bathyscaph, but under the rules of the Navy they can't 
be paid the pay given to submarine officers, because they are not in 
the submarine service, so they sacrifice this pay to go into this new 
field. I think I am very hopeful that by administrative action this 
can be corrected. If it isn't going to be corrected by administrative 
action, I am going to try to correct it by legislation. I think that 
here is the type of thing where oceanography has become the sort of 
"poor cousin" of the rest of the science in the Federal Government. 
This is the thing, the greatest contribution we can make, which is to 
begin to educate people to the absolute necessity of the recognition of 
science and the scientists in this field, and the great potentiality that 
oceanography holds. I have nothing further. 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you Dr. Miller 

Mr. Miller. Now, wait a minute, do you want to get rough ? 

Mr. Anfuso. No, I meant that, I think you deserve it, I think I 
should say doctor. 

Mr. Fulton. Call everybody doctor. 

Mr. Anfuso. I think some day we will have to award you a doc- 
torate, and I think you deserve it. 

May I say this committee for the record does not intend to infringe 
or trespass upon the rights of any committee, especially that of the 
committee on which I serve, too, the Committee on Merchant Marine 
and Fisheries. 

I hope we can cooperate with all existing committees, and perhaps 
accomplish the things that you have testified to and the things that 
Mr. Miller would like to have accomplished. 

Mr. Fulton? 

Mr. Fulton. I am glad to have you here. I think you made an 
excellent statement, 

The problem comes up on jurisdiction, while we are on that sub- 
ject, among congressional committees. 

There certainly must be a sphere for the pure research science ap- 
proach separate and apart, and, of course, in cooperation with the com- 
mittees that have a more direct practical reason for entering the field, 
for example, the Navy, for floating ships. The Merchant Marine and 
Fisheries has it for the purpose of food — as I imagine the Department 
of Agriculture has it for food — transportation and peacetime uses of 
the sea. 


But there certainly is an area to me where pure science should have 
its rightful place, and on that basis it should be not only scholarships 
or grants from the National Science Foundation, but it should be 
seeing that the research is on a broad enough basis that we can look 
ahead far into the future. 

That kind of a jurisdiction is under this Committee on Science and 
Astronautics. You agree that generally as a statement, that there 
should be a place for a broad view that is not particularly a practical 
application of science in oceanography ? 

Dr. Brown. I would prefer not to get involved in problems of or- 
ganizing the U.S. Congress. 

Mr. Fulton. I didn't ask you on organization. I said — I will re- 
peat it — is there a broad field for the application of pure science in 
oceanography, that is the only question I asked you. 

Dr. Brown. Oh, indeed there is, sir. 

As I have already stated, I believe that basic research, pure science 
in oceanography, is perhaps the most important area on which we 
should concentrate our efforts at the present time. 

Mr. Fulton. So that it is a real area, and it is a demanding area, 
and one in which we should make a good effort to keep the United 
States abreast of our friendly and unfriendly competitors in this 
scientific race in this generation ? 

Dr. Brown. That is correct. May I just add one sentence or two to 
that? And that is, I believe it important, however, that those agen- 
cies, those Government agencies which are given practical problems to 
solve — for example, the Navy has practical problems of defense ; the 
Bureau of Commercial Fisheries has practical problems of finding 
out how many fish there are and where they are ; the Atomic Energy 
Commission has practical problems involving radioactivity — it is 
terribly important that they maintain close contact with basic 
research, with the pure scientific endeavor and, indeed, participate 
in it themselves, so that they can appreciate what is happening, so 
that they will know what is happening and can guide their own 
behavior accordingly. 

Mr. Fulton. The problem in Government is, for example, in the 
Department of Defense, that the end result of the operations of the 
Department of Defense is often weaponry systems. The question then 
comes in budgeting, whether you always have to budget research and 
development for the purpose of entering into a weaponry system. 

That is quite a limitation on the Department of Defense operation, 
but I do believe, not only within the Department of Defense but out- 
side, there should be a place for the basic research and pure science ; 
and don't you feel that, too? 

Dr. Brown. Indeed ; yes. 

Mr. Fulton. Then, on the budget you would come up — we have a 
pamphlet here from the National Academy of Sciences — National 
Research Council. They had recommended a 5-year budget from 19G0 
to 1964 of $47,900,000, and a 5-year budget for 1965 to 1969 of 
$52,500,000, totaling the budget for the 10-year period, 1960-70, of 

They have likewise stated the U.S. Navy should probably take care 
of one-half of the costs of that budget, which would mean a budget 
of about $50 million, which would be outside a direct application 
such as for defense purposes. 


Do you think that that budget of $50 million for 10 years— it would 
be more or less of what we would call pure science or basic research, 
as distinguished from applied science — is enough ? 

Dr. Brown. Keep in mind, first, that these are 1958 dollars; but, 
quite apart from that, we based our recommendations on our best guess 
as to how quickly the manpower could be relieved. 

Additional appropriations do not help one if you don't have people 
who are competent to make use of the appropriations. 

As a result, I believe that our recommendations are realistic, given 
our best guess concerning what can be done about the manpower. 

Now, if by some chance the manpower situation can be relieved more 
rapidly than we guessed, then I by all means would urge that more 
money go into basic research than we recommended. 

Mr. Fulton. Would you comment now on the advance the Rus- 
sians are making in this same field as compared to our U.S. advance? 
For example, they have the Russian oceanographic ship, Vityaz. 
They also have the Lomonosov, the new one. Are we keeping pace in 
the type of equipment and the type of work they are doing ? 

Dr. Brown. I believe that we have to keep in mind when we talk 
about Russian activity in this area, that they started intensive efforts 
in oceanography only quite recently. 

I am told by my friends who have studied the situation that in ef- 
fect what they are doing now on a large scale is training young ocea- 
nographers. They suffer from the same kind of problem from which 
we suffer and that is inadequate trained manpower in the field. 

Their large ships are being used in part as training ships for young 
people in oceanography. 

Now, on the basis of what I have read and on the basis of what I 
have learned from talking with Russian oceanographers, as well as 
with oceanographers from other countries who have studied what the 
Russians are doing, my best guess would be that the rate of improve- 
ment in the Soviet Union in this respect is considerably greater than 
the rate of improvement in the United States. 

Now, this doesn't mean that they are ahead of us at the present time, 
but the curves are likely to cross. 

Mr. Fulton. Thank you. 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you, Mr. Fulton. 

At this time I wish to congratulate the members of this committee 
for limiting their questions, in view of the fact we have other wit- 
nesses from California. 

Now, our distinguished member from Utah, Mr. King. 

Mr. King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I wish there were several days to go into some of the very interest- 
ing facets of this problem, but I will just ask one or two questions, 
Dr. Brown. 

First of all, would you say that at the present time we have one co- 
ordinated oceanographic program in the United States? Is there 
such a thing ? 

Dr. Brown. I would not call it one coordinated oceanographic 
program as yet, but it does appear to be emerging. 

For some months now there has been in existence an informal co- 
ordinating committee on oceanography with representation from those 
Government agencies which are concerned, and that has been more re- 


cently formalized within the Federal Council for Science and Tech- 
nology, and the subcommittee, or the panel, I can't remember what it 
is called, on oceanography, under Secretary Wakelin's direction has 
been made an official subcommittee. 

There is every evidence that a broad national coordinated program 
is emerging as a result of these efforts. 

Mr. King. The enactment of the bill under consideration would no 
doubt accelerate the formulation of that one oceanographic program ; 
is that correct ? 

Dr. Brown. I believe so ; yes. 

Mr. King. It would be a step in the right direction, would it, in 
your opinion ? 

Dr. Brown. I believe it would be a step in the right direction ; yes. 

Mr. King. In fact, I believe it would be the heart of the oceano- 
graphic program, would it not ? 

Dr. Brown. What bill are you speaking of now, to make sure I 
answered you correctly ? 

Mr. King. I'm talking about H.E. 6298. 

Mr. Anfuso. Right. 

Dr. Brown. Yes, the National Science Foundation bill, yes. 

Mr. King. Now, let me pursue another matter briefly, Dr. Brown. 

You mentioned that you felt that we were being sort of pushed into 
the sea with reference to, oh, the location of launching areas or sites 
or bases for ballistic missiles — that is, as a part of our defensive 
mechanism, we were going to the sea. 

Dr. Brown. Yes. 

Mr. King. The Air Force, of course, has come up with this mobile 
unit for launching Minutemen from flatcars and so on. 

Would an extension or an elaboration of that concept of the mobile 
launching base on the land in any way alter your statement that we 
are being pushed into the sea ? 

Dr. Brown. I don't believe so. 

What I have said does not exclude the use of the mobile Minuteman 
by any means. But if I were placing bets as to how things would go 
during the course of the next 10 to 15 years, I would bet that the re- 
turn to the sea would be much more predominant than the increasing 
of flexibility on land. 

Mr. King. Could you explore that for just about 1 minute — and we 
are pressed for time — but my question would be: What natural ad- 
vantages would there be in establishing these bases in the sea, or by 
the use of the submarine and the Polaris, over its counterpart on 

In other words, why are we being pushed into the sea ? 

Dr. Brown. In the sea one gets three-dimensional maneuverability. 
On a railroad track you get in effect one-dimensional maneuverability. 

One can map not only railroads but railroad ties, from fantastic 
heights, with modern camera systems, and with modern reconnaissance 
techniques one can certainly map railroad systems in detail, and it does 
not take much effort to so disrupt the railroad system that your ma- 
neuverability would not be terribly great. 

Now, please don't misinterpret me. I believe the mobile Minute- 
man has its uses, but I believe that I he whole area of using the sea and 
its three dimensions is in the long run more important. 


Mr. King. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman, in the interest of time I will stop there. 

Mr. Anfuso. Mr. Van Pelt? 

Mr. Van Pelt. No questions. 

Mr. Fulton. May I ask a question ? 

Mr. Anfuso. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. On the amount of research and. exploration that has 
been made of the sea, graphically we know less about the bottom of the 
sea, don't we, than we know about the surface of the Moon ? 

Dr. Brown. That is correct. We know more about the surface of 
the Moon than we know about most bottom topography in the oceans. 

Mr. Fulton. Overall, Earth's people are very remiss in not making 
an adequate research of their own planet ? 

Dr. Brow t n. That is correct. 

Mr. Fulton. Thank you. 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you very much, Dr. Brown. 

I think this Committee on Oceanography is rather fortunate in 
having you as its chairman, because you recognize the importance of 
the security of our country in the field. Thank you very much. 

Dr. Brown. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Anfuso. Now, we have with us again this morning, some peo- 
ple who have recently made history. 

We have Dr. Andreas B. Kechnitzer, Navy Electronics Laboratory, 
San Diego, Calif. 

Will you please step up, sir? And with him are Captain Phelps, 
Lieutenant Walsh, Lieutenant Shumaker. I am inserting in the 
record at this point their biographies. 

(The biographies referred to are as follows :) 

Dr. Andreas B. Rechnitzer 

Dr. Andreas B. Rechnitzer is the scientist in charge of the bathyscaph pro- 
gram, the continuing program of probing the ocean bottom, in the Navy's most 
unique submersible, the Trieste. He is a biological oceanographer, with his 
Ph. D. from the University of California at Los Angeles. On November 15, 
1959, he descended 18,600 feet into the Marianas Trench, thereby bringing the 
depth record for a manned descent back to the United States. 

He received the Distinguished Civilian Service Award from President Eisen- 
hower on February 4, 1960. He is a life member of the National Geographic 
Society, and was awarded the Richard Hopper Day Memorial Medal by the 
Philadelphia Academy of Natural Sciences in April of 1960. 

Dr. Rechnitzer was born in Escondido, Calif., and earned his bachelor of 
science from Michigan State University in 1947. He is a member of Sigma Xi, 
the Western Society of Naturalists, the Society of Systematic Zoologists, and a 
member of the National Academy of Science Panel on New Devices for Explor- 
ing the Ocean. He has written a number of scientific papers on fish and bird 
life, on pollution of ocean waters, and on scientific diving; and is a pioneer in the 
development of self-contained diving equipment for scientific research. 

He and his wife, Martha Jean, have four children, and live in Solana Beach, 

Capt. John M. Phelps, Commanding Officer and Director, Navy 
Electronics Laboratory 

Captain John M. Phelps, U.S. Navy, has served as commanding officer and di- 
rector of the Navy Electronics Laboratory, San Diego, Calif., since August 1956. 
Here he directs the activities of approximately 1,200 civilian scientists, engineers, 
and technicians in a $25 million establishment. 

Captain Phelps compiled an impressive wartime record, participating in the 
campaigns at Guadalcanal, in the Central Pacific, at Saipan and Tinian, at Iwo 


Jima, at Okinawa, and in the Occupation of Japan. Most of his combat sea 
duty was with the Commanders of Amphibious Group Two and the Fifth Am- 
phibious Force. 

His interest in electronics preceded the big expansion of this field which 
came after World War II. He graduated from the U.S. Naval Postgraduate 
School in 1942 after 2 years of electronics engineering, and followed this with 
advanced radar work at Massachusetts Institute of Technology later in 1942. 
Since World War II he has served as head of electronics design in the Bureau 
of Ships and as electronics officer at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. He 
came to NEL from a billet as repair and shipbuilding superintendent at Mare 
Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo, Calif. 

Captain Phelps was born July 15, 1912, in San Francisco. He is married to 
the former Rita Marie Dietrich of Buffalo, N.Y., and has three children, John 
Michel III, Janice Lynn, and James Roy. They live in Quarters A at the Navy 
Electronics Laboratory, Point Loma, San Diego. 

Lt. Don Walsh, U.S. Navy 

Lieutenant Don Walsh, USN, is assigned to the Navy Electronics Laboratory 
as Officer in Charge of the bathyscaph Trieste. He is one of the craft's three 
pilots. He is a 1954 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy. 

After graduating from Annapolis, Lieutenant Walsh attended the Amphibious 
Warfare School for two months. His other service has included U.S.S. Mathews 
(AKA 96) ; CIC School, Glenview, 111.; Submarine School, New London, Conn.; 
and the U.S.S. Rasher (SSR 269). Before reporting to the Navy Electronics 
Laboratory in March of 1959, he was staff secretary for Comsubflot 1 for 6 

He is a member of the U.S. Naval Institute, the American Aviation Historical 
Society, and a life member of the National Geographic Society. He has a pilot's 
license, and his other off-duty activities include sailing, skin diving and photog- 
raphy. As time allows, he is working toward an advanced degree in political 
science at San Diego State College evening school. 

Lieutenant Walsh was born November 2, 1931, at Berkeley, Calif. He is single 
and lives at 2957 Lawrence Street in San Diego. 

Lieutenant Walsh was pilot, along with Jacques Piccard, when the Trieste 
dove nearly 7 miles to the deepest known spot in the ocean. This was the 
Challenger Deep near Guam in the Marianas Islands. For this operation he 
was awarded the Legion of Merit by President Eisenhower on February 4, 1960. 
At the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia on the 26th of April 1960 
he was awarded the first annual Richard Hopper Day Memorial Medal for ex- 
ploration and discovery in natural science. 

Lt. Lawrence A. Shumaker, U.S. Navy 

Lieutenant Lawrence A. Shumaker, USN, Assistant Officer in Charge of the 
bathyscaph Trieste, is a native Californian. He was born February 13, 1932, in 
Los Angeles. He graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis in 1954. 

He has also studied at East Los Angeles Junior College, and attended subma- 
rine school at New London, Conn. His other service has included assignment as 
Engineer Officer, U.S.S. Mansfield (DD 728) ; Supply Officer, U.S.S. Bonita 
(SSK 3) ; Torpedo Officer and Engineer Officer, U.S.S. Rasher (SSR 269). 

His hobbies include skin diving and pistol and rifle shooting. He won the Sec- 
retary of the Navy Pistol Trophy in 1954. He is a member of the National 
Rifle Association, and a life member of the National Geographic Society. In 
February 1960, he was awarded the Navy Commendation Ribbon with metal 
pendant for his work with the bathyscaph Trieste, by President Eisenhower. In 
April of 1960, he received the first annual Richard Hopper Day Memorial Medal 
for exploration and discovery in natural sciences, from the Academy of Natural 
Sciences of Philadelphia. Lieutenant Shumaker, his wife lone, and their two 
children, Lawrence and Curt, live at 3514 Mt. Lawrence Drive, San Diego, Calif. 

Mr. Anfuso. We welcome all of you gentlemen, and again I con- 
gratulate you for what you have done, but I think you best tell it to 
the committee yourself. 

May I suggest, however, Dr. Rechnitzer, you have submitted a 17- 
page statement. Obviously we could not hear that statement and finish 


in time. Would you have any objection if we submitted this state- 
ment of yours for the record and then you give us a brief analysis of 
what you want to testify to and taking such part of this statement as 
you like ? Is that agreeable to you ? 

Dr. Kechnitzer. Fine, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Anfuso. Proceed. 

Mr. Fulton. May I likewise welcome the doctor, and say we are 
glad to have somebody in a field where we are clearly ahead of the 


Dr. Rechnitzer. I am Andreas Rechnitzer 

Mr. Anfuso. Excuse me, Doctor, would you like to have the other 
gentlemen sit by you ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Please. 

Mr. Anfuso. Will you come up, gentlemen, the gentlemen I have 
mentioned, and sit around the table ? 

Proceed, sir. 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Thank you. 

I am Andreas Rechnitzer, oceanographer and scientist in charge of 
the bathyscaph, U.S. Navy Electronics Laboratory, San Diego. 

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it is a j^leasure to 
be here again and to bring you a more detailed account of our more 
recent diving activities in the Pacific Ocean. 

We are now talking about facts and what is going on currently in 
deep oceanic research. 

As you know, the U.S. Navy bathyscaph Trieste successfully pene- 
trated to the deepest known location in the oceans on January 23, 

Carrying two men 7 miles below the ocean's surface this scientific 
breakthrough opens up all of the oceans' depths to exploration and 

In the execution of this feat and the preliminary dives leading up 
to the achieving of the ultimate in deep dives, the bathyscaph pro- 
gram has yielded scientific and technical information of major im- 
portance to future manned exploration of the oceans. 

The Honorable George P. Miller, member of this committee, recog- 
nized the importance of this deepest dive and acknowledged the feat 
by an entry in the appendix of the Congressional Record published 
February 3, 1960. 

Herein he acknowledged the relatively unheralded accomplishments 
of the U.S. Project Nekton, that included in its program the deepest 
known possible descent by man, that is, to the bottom of the Challenger 
Deep, 35,800 feet. 

55438—60 4 


This 5-hour descent permitted adequate time for observations of the 
environmental conditions characteristic of the 7-mile water column. 

On the sea floor, 35,800 feet down in the Challenger Deep, the oc- 
cupants of the sphere viewed living organisms, observed the physical 
characteristics of the sea floor, and conveyed to the surface by voice 
via an electronic acoustic device that they were safely at the bottom. 

The deep dive stands by itself as a significant achievement by man 
in his unending attempt to expand his capabilities to occupy and 
investigate more of the Earth's spaces. 

The record descents made during Project Nekton of 18,600, 24,000, 
and 35,800 feet are in reality only a byproduct of a scientific program 
seeking information of diverse types. 

Technologically it does represent a significant milestone which will 
undoubtedly incite future development in deep submersibles and 
equipment for manned and unmanned exploration and exploitation of 
inner space. 

The development of the vehicle with the capabilies of the Trieste 
makes the greater part of the ocean's 1,370 million cubic kilometers of 
water available as an operating medium for national security. 

It also renders much of the 361 million square kilometers of sea 
floor accessible for the search of minerals, fuels, and other natural 

Prior to any significant utilization of this geographic frontier, there 
is a requirement for the development of basic knowledge about the 
deep sea environment, and the operational problems that are to be 

This, of course, represents a tremendous task, and we are only initiat- 
ing it through the bathyscaph program. The bathyscaph program 
is in effect but it obviously involves only a modest nucleus of equip- 
ment and personnel. 

The bathyscaph, as purchased by the United States, is in reality a 
model "T" of the deep submersibles. It has, however, conquered the 
depth barrier, and points the way to more advanced vehicles. Never- 
theless, as far as we know it is still the best in the world. French and 
Russian bathyscaphs under development will undoubtedly surpass the 
versatility of the Trieste. 

In view of the recent U.S. Navy contribution to the deeep-sea explo- 
ration, a news release from Washington, D.C., dated April 21, 1959, 
which appeared in the San Diego Union, is of interest. 

Pertinent excerpts are as follows : 

Deep-sea diving operations of the San Diego-based bathyscaph Trieste are 
"opening the way to a new era of undersea exploration," Gordon Lill, Chief of the 
Geophysical Branch of the Office of Naval Research, said today. 

"The Trieste," Lill said, "is the forerunner of a fleet of deep diving craft of 
several types that within a few years will be exploring the ocean fully in its 
third dimension — depth." 

The bathyscaph was a proven oceanographic research platform pro- 
gram before purchase by the U.S. Navy. In 1957 dives were con- 
ducted in the Mediterranean under the auspices and support of the 
U.S. Navy Office of Naval Research. Utilized by a team of American 
scientists from several Government laboratories, Ihe craft was found 
to be useful for oceanographic studies. 

Herein we had to prove its worth before we could purchase it. 


The success of the Mediterranean operations prompted the outright 
purchase of the craft by the U.S. Navy. Since its purchase the 
bathyscaph has provided an effective research platform for operations 
out of San Diego and Guam. 

The craft alone was a skeleton, and had no scientific instruments, 
and these have been under development at the laboratory and by other 
institutions. As you might well realize to provide instruments that 
can withstand the tremendous pressures of the great depths is not an 
easy one. Pressure at the bottom of the Challenger Deep amounts 
to 8 tons per square inch. 

Unfortunately we could not go out and buy the instruments we de- 
sired "off the shelf," so to speak. 

In the record I would like to include the entire presentation, but 
just to give you some idea of the versatility of the bathyscaph, and 
what will be required of other deep submersibles for man's research 
in the oceans, they have to include the studies of submarine geology, 
physical oceanography, biological oceanography, and acoustic proj- 
ects, as brought out by Dr. Brown. At the present time acoustics is the 
equivalent of our eyes under water, and the only way we can view 
great distances. 

The capabilities of the bathyscaph are somewhat limited. It is 
primarily an elevator. It is built to go up and down. Its mission 
was to make the deep sea available, even if only on a limited basis. 

Carrying oceanographers and scientific equipment, the bathyscaph 
can descend to any depth in the sea and provide an in situ base of 
operations ; that is one in the environment, and to provide an oppor- 
tunity for visual observations and measurements. 

I think it would be easy to understand that if you are going into 
a new environment, the first thing you want to do is look at the 
environment and see what is going on there. It is difficult to make 
instruments to measure certain phenomenon, while others are going 
on of which we know nothing or relatively little. 

One of the primary attributes of the bathyscaph, the observation 
window, which, supplemented with external illumination, extends the 
capabilities of the bathyscaph to the best known servomechanism— 
man himself. 

It also offers a new feature for oceanographic research, in that it 
vitiates the need for operating equipment such as samplers hung at 
the end of extremely long cables lowered into the abyss. 

This classical groping method is clearly analogous to the student 
of conditions prevailing in the barren deserts of the great Southwest 
when he uses an airplane flying, say, at 35,000 feet at midnight. Low- 
ering a cable to the desert floor with a grab device on it, he hopes to 
pick up a piece of a lizard's tail, a creosote bush, sands, and rock. 
From this meager tidbit, the scientist then is expected to interpret 
what the desert floor looks like and some of the dynamic happenings 
that are occurring there at the time he flew over that area. 

Dives with the Trieste have given us some insight into the quantity, 
size, distribution, and behavior of animals at all depths. 

There, without exception, animals have been viewed on each and 
every dive made with the Trieste. 

When they reached the bottom of the Challenger Deep they were 
pleasantly surprised to find a fish swiming around just outside of 


the window, making its way along in the sediments. It was clearly 
made out to be a flatfish, or flounder, similar to what we observe in 
shallow waters. 

In addition to this animal, a shrimp was seen swimming about 6 
feet up off the bottom. 

This small amount of evidence can tell us quite a bit about the 
ocean. Obviously, animals of this high an order require oxygen, 
and for this amount of oxygen to be sustained, or replenished, it re- 
quires current to bring it from the surface areas the only known 
source of oxygen for the water masses. It must be absorbed from 
the atmosphere, or produced by organisms living near the surface. 

It also means that these animals must have an adequate amount 
of food to sustain themselves, or we have to consider that they might 
swim all the way up to the surface, or up to the higher levels. This 
is very unlikely, because flatfishes normally remain near the bottom. 
We have observed animal life throughout the water column. This 
is quite significant, because it indicates that, in this land of perpetual 
darkness, animal life can exist, and there is a continuous food chain 
for the myriad forms that do exist there. 

I mentioned that it was a land of perpetual darkness. This is not 
quite true, because we observe bioluminescence, light produced by the 
living organisms in the water column. They are in an area where it 
is quite dark. What function bioluminescence plays, or of what 
value it is to these animals, we are still not certain. It gives the 
illusion of a starry night, as you view out of the port of the bathy- 

When Lieutenant Walsh was at the bottom of the Challenger Deep, 
he observed no detectable current. As a matter of fact, when he 
touched bottom, the very fine sediments were raised into suspension, 
and remained there for the greater part of the 20 minutes he remained 
on the bottom. 

However, this showed only that currents were not present at that 
time. They were obviously present some other time in the past. We 
need to know more about the seasonal changes in currents at these 
great depths. 

The bathyscaph operations off of San Diego have been hampered in 
some respect because, as you know, the oceans have served as a gar- 
bage dump for many of manmade wastes. Dispersion is assisted by 
current systems and deep basins have been utilized for chemical and 
explosive waste depositories. Out of sight and out of mind in the 
past, these areas are now within the operating domain of the bathy- 
scaph and future deep submersibles. Several areas of interest off 
California are out of bounds to the bathyscaph for diving as they are 
reserved for hazardous materials disposals. 

I bring this up to indicate that prior to the advent of the bathy- 
scaph, we could get away with relinquishing some space in the ocean, 
thinking that we would never be there. 

In addition to the visual observations made during the deep dive, 
there was a complete temperature profile obtained above the Chal- 
lenger Deep, continuous all the way from the surface to the sea floor. 
It was clearly recorded that the temperature decreased to 2i/o° centi- 
grade at a depth of approximately 25,000 feet, and below tins depth 
there occurs a minor but significant increase to 3y 2 ° centigrade. This 


is not to be construed as a new observation, but the record obtained 
by the bathyscaph and its personnel is the first continuous record of 
the temperature phenomena from the surface to the bottom of such a 
water column. This advantage is being extended to many other 
physical measurements so that we will have simultaneous measure- 
ments of a variety of parameters all the way from the surface to the 
bottom, rather than the point checks dictated by lowering devices on a 
cable, taking samples, and interpolating between the points. 

Mr. Miller. Do you have any reason, Doctor, to indicate why the 
temperature should go up ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. This is due to the compression of sea water. It 
can be compressed as much as 5 percent in these great depths. In 
compressing any material, be it a gas or a liquid, it heats up when 
compressed. The temperatures increasing as they do, in these great 
depths, along with other oceanographic information, it is held to be 
due to compression. 

It might be well to go back and take a quick look at the history of 
the bathyscaph to give us some understanding of how slowly things 
actually move in the scientific field at times. 

The concept of the bathyscaph preceded that of Piccard's strato- 
spheric balloon. It has been almost 50 years now since he originally 
laid down the designs for the bathyscaph. 

Now, to come up to more recent times, the Trieste was constructed 
in 1952 and 1953. Between its launching and 1958, the bathyscaph 
operated only in the Mediterranean Sea. 

During that period, 48 dives were completed. Twenty-six of these 
were made in 1957 under the sponsorship of the U.S. Navy, Office of 
Naval Research. 

After August 1958, the craft was brought to San Diego, reassembled, 
and put into operation where it reached a maximum depth of 4,200 

Following these preliminary dives, the craft was prepared for the 
Project Nekton which was to be conducted near Guam, in the Mariana 
Islands group in the Western Pacific. 

The objectives of the operations were both scientific and technologi- 
cal. Some of the details I have already given you. 

There are problems with the bathyscaph, as there are with any 
other prototype vehicle. 

Although it has the capability of operating down to depths where 
it encounters tremendous pressures, it cannot be safely operated in 
rough seas. It is also limited to near shore operations due to the 
lack of an adequate mother ship. 

Therefore, the present scope of operation of the craft is seriously 
curtailed as deep ocean areas are not usually located close to major 
shore based facilities, due to shallow depth continental shelves. 

As the average depths of the oceans are approximately 2 miles, we 
should make every effort to explore these deeper areas which are, 
after the big dive, actually only wading depths for the Trieste. 

To reach 2 miles of water, it requires at least a 120-mile tow from 
San Diego, and this is not easily achieved when you move along about 
iy 2 knots average speed. You can walk faster than that. 

Many important military projects under study involve deepwater 
investigations. Such studies could be markedly advanced if the capa- 
bilities of the bathyscaph could be employed. 


Unfortunately the limitations imposed by ocean surface conditions, 
and the cumbersome towing that is involved in moving the craft to the 
diving location, renders the craft limited to these near shore operations. 
Remote locations, such as Hawaii and Guam are satisfactory insofar 
as shore-based logistic support is concerned, but again the diving oper- 
ations must be limited to a radius of approximately 200 miles from 
the port until a mother ship is available. 

One thing I would like to point out, the bathyscaph was purchased 
for American scientists, and not for the exclusive use of U.S. Navy 

In this regard, we would like to be able to transport the bathyscaph 
to the Atlantic Ocean, so that some of the Woods Hole oceanographers 
could have an opportunity to utilize the craft. Obviously this is very 
difficult to do at the present time. 

It is interesting to note, too, that in the National Academy of 
Sciences — National Research Council, Committee on Oceanography 
Report No. 7, which I have made available to you, that the committee 
envisages the development of a variety of manned and unmanned 
submersibles and cites the need for such craft in an expanded oceano- 
graphic research program. 

Already the commercially designed 15,000-foot Aluminaut is well 
advanced. 1 This is a commercial enterprise of the Reynolds Aluminum 
Co. Several deep submersibles are being designed by other organiza- 
tions in the United States, but none are in the construction stages. 

We hope that our operations with the bathyscaph have stirred 
interest in this direction. 

It has been pointed out that man's knowledge of the oceans is 
meager indeed when compared with their importance to him. Recog- 
nizing that neglect in this area of endeavor might well result in our 
being placed in a precarious position from the scientific, technological, 
and military points of view, it is mandatory there be an increased 
American effort in the last geographic frontier. 

If we are to pursue an expanded program, it is considered essential 
to the orderly progress of pursuing the host of studies involved in 
manned exploration of the deep sea, that deep submersible vehicles 
and shore facilities, scientific personnel, and existing experience be 
integrated to provide the United States with the most effective means 
of maintaining leadership in oceanographic research. 

The established operating base for the bathyscaph at the U.S. 
Navy Electronics Laboratory, which is adjacent to the most suitable 
location for bathyscaph operations in the United States, appears to 
be the most propitious location for such a base. 

This may sound like a little bit of advertising, but we would like 
to draw attention to this fact, that the Nation's largest community 
of scientists and personnel concerned with basic and direct oceano- 
graphic research is located in the San Diego area. 

One of the prime reasons for the seemingly poor diving record, that 
is, the number of dives, made by the Trieste during its first year of 
operation in the United States, was due to the fact that we had to 
provide the logistic support for this unique craft. In doing this, we 

1 See Wenk, Edward, Jr., Dehart, Robert C, Mandel, Philip, and Kissinger. Ralph, Jr., 
"An OceanoRrnphic Research Submarine of Aluminium for Operation to 15,000 Feet," 
paper No. 5 before the Royal Institution of Naval Architects, London, Mar. 23, 1960. 


had no one who was really thoroughly trained or thoroughly ac- 
quainted with the bathyscaph. 

There were no printed instructions, or precepts, other than the 
personal experience of one man, Jacques Piccard. He was brought to 
the United States in a consultant's status, and has worked with us up 
to the culmination of the deep dive in the Pacific. 

Despite the small number of dives, those that have been made, I 
think, are of significance. We expect that we will have the bathyscaph 
instrumented and operated for a variety of oceanographers off San 
Diego starting in the fall. 

We have a few miscellaneous problems which are outlined in the 
statement, and I will leave these for the record, and conclude with 
that statement. 

(The full text of Dr. Eechnitzer's prepared statement is as follows :) 

Statement by Dr. Andreas B. Rechnitzer, U.S. Navy Electronics Labora- 
tory, San Diego, Calif., on the U.S. Navy Bathyscaph Program 

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the U.S. Navy bathyscaph 
Trieste successfully penetrated to the deepest known location in the oceans on 
January 23, 1960. Carrying two men 7 miles below the ocean's surface this 
scientific breakthrough has opened all of the ocean waters to exploration and 
exploitation. In the execution of this feat and the preliminary dives leading 
up to achieving the ultimate in deep dives (70 in total for the Trieste) the 
bathyscaph program has yielded scientific and technical information of major 
importance to future manned exploration of the oceans. 

The Honorable George P. Miller, member of this committee, recognized the 
importance of this dive and acknowledged the feat by an entry in the Ap- 
pendix of the Congressional Record published February 3, 1960. The item 
was entitled "Oceanography: Jules Verne 1960." Herein he acknowledged the 
relatively unheralded accomplishment of the U.S. Project Nekton that included 
in its program the deepest known possible descent by man ; that is, to the bottom 
of the Challenger Deep (35,800 feet) . 

The 5-hour descent permitted adequate time for observations of the environ- 
mental conditions characteristic of the 7-mile column of water. On the sea 
floor, 35,800 feet down in the Challenger Deep, the occupants of the sphere 
viewed living organisms, observed the physical characteristics of the sea floor 
and conveyed to the surface by voice via an electronic acoustic device that they 
were safely at the bottom. The deep dive stands by itself as a significant 
achievement by man in his unending attempt to expand his capabilities to oc- 
cupy and investigate more of the Earth's spaces. The record descents made 
during Project Nekton (18,600 feet, 24,000 and 35,800 feet) are in reality only 
a byproduct of a scientific program seeking information of diverse types. Tech- 
nologically it does represent a significant milestone which will undoubtedly 
incite future development in deep submersibles and equipment for manned and 
unmanned exploration and exploitation of "inner space." The development of 
a vehicle with the capabilities of the Trieste, makes a greater part of the 
oceans' 1,370 million cubic kilometers of water available as an operating medium 
for national security. It also renders much of the 361 million square kilo- 
meters of sea floor accessible for the search of minerals, fuels, and other natural 
resources. Prior to any significant utilization of this geographic frontier there 
is a requirement for the development of basic knowledge about the deep sea 
environment and the operational problems that are to be encountered. This 
bathyscaph program and the era of undersea operation is now in effect, but it 
obviously involves only a modest nucleus of equipment and personnel. The 
bathyscaph, as purchased by the United States, is in reality a model "T" of the 
deep subersibles. It has, however, conquered the depth barrier and points 
the way to more advanced vehicles. Nevertheless, as far as we know, it is 
still the best in the world. French and Russian bathyscaphs under development 
will undoubtedly surpass the versatility of the Trieste. 


In view of the recent U.S. Navy contribution to the deep sea exploration, a 
news release from Washington, D.C. dated April 21, 1959, which appeared in 
the San Diego Union is of interest. Pertinent excerpts are as follows : 

"Deep sea diving operations of the San Diego-based bathyscaph Trieste are 
'opening the way to a new era of undersea exploration,' Gordon Lill, Chief of the 
Geophysical Branch of the Office of Naval Research said today. 

" 'The Trieste,' Lill said, 'is the forerunner of a fleet of deep-diving craft of 
several types that within a few years will be exploring the ocean fully in its 
third dimension — depth.' " 

The bathyscaph was a proven oceanographic research platform before its pur- 
chase by the U.S. Navy. In 1957, dives were conducted in the Mediterranean 
under the auspices and support of the U.S. Navy Office of Naval Research. Uti- 
lized by a team of American scientists from several Government laboratories, the 
craft was found to be useful for oceanographic studies. The success of the Medi- 
terranean operations prompted the outright purchase of the craft by the U.S. 
Navy. Since its purchase, the bathyscaph has provided an effective platform 
for deep sea research off San Diego and near Guam. 

New instruments for wresting information from the abyssal depths where 
temperatures and pressure often pose serious problems for the design engineer 
have been slow in development. Prototypes have been tested under actual oper- 
ating conditions. Instruments for the deep sea often involve completely new 
ideas and are not available as an off-the-shelf item. In many instances, the 
pressure requirements preclude the use of standard components and some manu- 
facturers refuse to guarantee their products at the pressures to which the 
equipment will be subjected. In addition, until the environment has been ob- 
served and phenomena observed, it is not possible to adequately design equip- 
ment to make measurements. During the 1959-60 dives with the Trieste new 
ultrasensitive water current meters, electronic depth gages, and temperature- 
sensing devices were tested. The bathyscaph has provisions for housing and 
powering delicate instrumentation and the vital component — man — to monitor 
the new devices that can effectively obtain more complete data than ever before. 
Continuous profiles of certain physical conditions from the surface to the bottom 
can be obtained. The capability is extended by a compact multichannel tape 
recorder, that effectively provides a simultaneous record of data obtained by all 
the instruments providing information for correlation analysis. 

The bathyscaph is readily recognized and accepted to have unique capabilities 
of direct use to all of the major oceanographic disciplines as is exemplified by 
the bathyscaph research program that will involve many scientists that is 
scheduled for execution off San Diego, Calif., and other areas of the world when 
adequate logistic facilities are made available. 


1. Oceanographic projects 
(a) Submarine geology : 

(1) Topographic studies — study of features too large to photograph and 
too small to study easily with echo sounders. 

(a) Channels at mouth of La Jolla and Scripps Submarine Canyon. 
(&) Study of "levees" on channels in San Diego Trough. 

(c) Study of detailed topography of upper continental slope — 50-500 

(d) Study of topography of continental slope between borderland and 
deep ocean. 

(2) Mass physical properties of sediments. 

(a) "In situ" sound velocity and absorption measurements, 
(o) Strength and penetrability study of sediments. 

(c) Slope failure and slump studies and relation to topography sedi- 
ment types. 

(d) Temperature studies in sediments. 

(3) General studies. 

(a) Geology and hydrology of closed basins. 

(&) Areal distribution and environmental studies of phosphorite and 
other minerals. 

(c) Geology, topography, and hydrology of borderland basin sills. 

(d) Dynamic processes affecting the distribution of sediments and 
sedimentation processes. 


( b ) Physical and chemical oceanography : 

(1 ) Physical properties of the sea. 
i a i Temperature structure, 
(ft) Density. 

(e) Water transparency. 
id) Light penetration. 

(2) Chemical properties of the sea. 
(a) Salinity. 

(6) Dissolved gas. 

(c) Dissolved solids. 

(d) Suspended colloids. 

(e) Radioactivity (cooperative study with other naval laboratories). 

(c) Biological oceanography : 

(1) Distribution of animal and plant life. 

(a) Plankton and relationships to sound transmission. 

(&) Organic detritus and relationships to sound transmission. 

( 2 ) Biological noises. 

(a) Kinds, distribution, and intensity of biological noises. 
( 6 ) Biological noises and target classification. 

( 3 ) Ecological studies. 

(a) Ecology and sound transmission — physicochemical relationships 
of deep-water and marine organisms. 

(b) Benthonic organisms and their relationship to food chains, influ- 
ence on topography and sedimentation, and possible influence on the 
concentration of radioactive materials that occur in limited quantities 
in the water mass. 

( c) Deep-sea organisms and sound generation. 
( d) Distribution and quantity of bioluminescence. 

2. Acoustic projects 

(a) Continuous sound velocity profiles (continuation of the measurements 
planned for Project Sonus to be conducted in June 1960 in the ilarianas Trench) . 

(b) Deep scattering layer investigations correlating acoustic measurements, 
visual observations, and photography. 

(c) Study of sound field levels in the sea from near surface sources at various 

(d) Reciprocal case of shallow receivers and source at various great depths. 

(e) Investigation of ambient noise types, levels, vertical, and geographical 

,'J. Evaluation of the "2'rieste" and its possible relation to future submarines 

(While the craft is being operated and developed as a research vehicle, many 
technological developments arise that appear to be useful for other military 

(a) Logistic support problems and general operations. 

(b) Research and development of new equipment and materials for deep sub- 
mersible craft construction and more effective operation. 

(c) Development of construction techniques. 

The bathyscaph Trieste is available to scientists from universities and Gov- 
ernment laboratories for the pursuit of studies that warrant the use of the craft 
and are compatible with the capabilities of the craft. 


The bathyscaph represents the first U.S. untethered deep-sea research platform 
for man and his machines. Carrying oceanographers and scientific equipment, 
the bathyscaph can descend to any depth in the sea and provide an in situ base 
of operations for direct visual observations and measurements. This capability 
renders the craft unique and is its most important attribute. It can — even in 
its primitive state of development — serve the same purpose as a manned atmos- 
pheric balloon sent aloft for investigating meterological phenomena. Atmos- 
pheric studies can be viewed much more easily than the deep sea. What lies 
below the air-sea surface boundary remains much of a mystery. The window 
of the bathyscaph, supplemented with external illumination capabilities of the 
bathyscaph, makes possible the use of the best known servomechanism — man 
himself. The craft vitiates the need for operating equipment or samplers hung 
at the end of extremely long cables lowered into the abyss. This classical group- 
5543S— 60— 5 


ing method is clearly analogous to the student of conditions prevailing in the 
barren deserts of the great Southwest when he uses an airplane to fly at a 
height equal to the greatest depth in the sea on a dark night. The samples that 
would be obtained might include the tail of a lizard, a piece of creosote bush, a 
bit of cactus, and a little sand and rock. From this he is expected to fit together 
the overall picture of what the desert floor looks like and what dynamic happen- 
ings are occurring there. Obviously, if man is present to view and correlate 
the events, a great deal more information can be derived from this method 
wherein a manned vehicle is employed. 

It is often difficult to conceive of the proper instruments required to extend 
our knowings prior to making an observation of a particular phenomenon. As 
more of the deep sea areas are probed by manned vehicles new instruments will 
be tailored to extend man's senses. Prototypes of these instruments are best 
evaluated when the operator is in close proximity to his device and he is cogni- 
zant of factors that are affecting his measurements. 

Dives with the Trieste have given us some insight as to the quantity, size, dis- 
tribution, and behavior of animals at all depths. The existence of near-micro- 
scopic life throughout the water column and animals as large as a 1-foot flat- 
fish at the greatest known depth indicates that devices are needed for selectively 
sampling these organisms. Bioluminescence is present in the area below that of 
sunlight penetration. The light level produced by living organisms is usually no 
greater than that encountered on a clear night from the stars. It is, however, 
a measurable amount and it would be advantageous to obtain readings of the 

The magnitude of water current near the sea floor can be readily determined 
when the bathyscaph reaches the bottom. Visual observations are being supple- 
mented with meters that automatically record the current velocity and direction. 
Currents off San Diego at 4,200 feet approached a velocity of 1 knot. At the 
bottom of the Challenger Deep there was no detectable current present during 
the 20-minute stay. Repeat dives to the sea floor off San Diego at approximately 
the same location revealed that the current velocities are variable and more 
observations will prove advantageous to our understanding of the variations. 

On the sea floor the types of sediment and rock outcrops can be viewed and 
photographed. Physical and biological activities tending to alter the topography 
and sedimentation processes have been observed. These observations would be 
difficult to photograph and in some instances the detail that can be observed 
cannot be resolved from photographs or television cameras. The behavior of 
animals, their mode of locomotion, stimuli to move, and the effects of their 
moving and general disruption of the sea floor sediments is clearly visible from 
within the bathyscaph sphere. In the supposedly barren depths of the Mediter- 
ranean, fishes were observed on nearly every dive and the water above the bottom 
was seen to possess a variety of animal forms. Off San Diego the animal popula- 
tion on the sea floor is more varied and the populations are significantly larger 
than in the Mediterranean areas visited. 

The most significant observation made using the Trieste were those made 
at the bottom of the Challenger Deep. During the landing a flatfish was ob- 
served swimming close to the bottom or squirming into the very soft sediment. 
A free-swimming shrimp swam through the area illuminated by the external 
lights. These meager biological observations offer several types of evidence 
about the physical conditions of the environment. Such animals are active types 
that require oxygen. The principal supply of oxygen for these depths is gen- 
erally recognized to come from surface sources where plants generate oxygen 
and oxygen is dissolved in the sea water from the atmosphere. Current systems 
are then responsible for carrying the oxygenated water into the great depths. 
Although no current was observed at the time of the landing it is obvious that 
currents were active in the past. What the magnitudes Of the current velocities 
are and whether or not they are seasonal cannot be learned from a single dive. 
The extent of vert Leal versus horizontal currents is also an unknown for this area. 

The oceans have served as satisfactory garbage dumps for many forms of 
manmade wastes. Dispersion is asssisted by current systems and deep basins 
have been utilized for chemical and explosive waste depositories. "Out of 
Sight and out of mind - ' in the past, these areas are now within the operating do- 
main of the bathyscaph and future dee]) submersibles. Already areas of interest 
..ft' California are out of bounds to bathyscaph diving as they are reserved for 
hazardous materials disposal. 

A complete water temperature profile above the Challenger Deep was obtained 
during the deep dive. It was clearly recorded that the temperature decreased 


to 2.45° C. at a depth of approximately 25,000 feet. Below this depth there oc- 
curs a minor but significant increase to 3.35° C. This is not to be construed as a 
new observation, but the record obtained by the bathyscaph personnel is the first 
continuous record of this phenomenon. More detailed observations of this in- 
version will be conducted in future operations and will be supplemented by 
water samples. 


Between the completion of construction of the Trieste in 1953 and December 
1958 the bathyscaph had operated only in the Mediterranean Sea. During that 
period 48 dives were completed ; 26 of these were in 1957 under the sponsorship 
of the U.S. Navy Office of Naval Research. After the August 1958 delivery of the 
vessel to San Diego a nominal dive series of 10 was conducted off San Diego 
to a maximum depth of 4,200 feet in preparation for Project Nekton and for 
familiarization for U.S. personnel. In October of 1959 the craft was transported 
to Guam for Project Nekton operations. A total of 11 dives were made between 
November 1959 and January 1960, culminating with the 35,800-foot dive. 

Although the bathyscaph has the capability of operating to any depth in the 
oceans it cannot be safely operated in rough seas and is limited to near shore 
operations due to a lack of adequate mother-ship facilities. Therefore, the 
present scope of operation of the craft is seriously curtailed as deep ocean areas 
are not usually located close to major shore base facilities. The average depths 
of the oceans are approximately li miles. To reach this depth from San Diego 
requires, at least, a 120-mile tow. The craft is necessarily constructed to be as 
light as possible. Therefore, it is structurally weak against surface waves and 

Many important military projects under study involve deepwater investiga- 
tions. Such studies could be markedly advanced if the capabilities of the bathy- 
scaph could lie employed. Unfortunately the limitations imposed by ocean sur- 
face conditions and the cumbersome towing that is involved in moving the craft 
to the diving location renders the craft limited to near shore operations at 
present. Remote locations such as Hawaii and Guam are satisfactory insofar 
as shore based logistic support is concerned. But again the diving operations 
must be limited to a radius of approximately 200 miles from port before a mother 
ship is available. 

It has been planned, since the purchase of the Trieste, that the craft would 
be made available to scientists of the United States. Many of these individuals 
have special problems that require dives to be made in other areas than 
San Diego or Guam. Ideally the craft should be transported to the desired 
location wherever it might be operated. To do this effectively an oceanographic 
research ship capable of servicing the craft would be very necessary in such an 
operation and would serve as a mobile base for applied oceanography. 

The National Academy of Sciences — National Research Council "Committee on 
Oceanography Report No. 7, 1959," envisages the development of a variety of 
manned and unmanned submersibles and cites the need for such craft in an 
expanded oceanographic research program. Already the commercially designed 
15,000-foot Aluminaut (Reynolds Aluminum Co.) is well advanced. Several 
deep submersibles are being designed by other organizations in the United 
States. None are in the construction stages. 


Man's knowledge of the oceans is meager indeed when compared with their 
importance to him. Recognizing that neglect in this area of endeavor might well 
result in our being placed in a precarious position from the scientific, technologi- 
cal, and military points of view, it is mandatory that there be an increased 
American effort in this last geographic frontier. Exploration and exploitation of 
"inner space" has received a significant impetus with the historic plunge that 
reached the maximum depth in the sea. Technological development required for 
the Mohole project will effectively advance man's knowledge of the Earth's 
structure and may enable him to extract vital minerals and fuels from the bottom 
of the ocean. 

As our technological civilization increases in complexity, as human populations 
grow at an ever-increasing rate, and as problems of military defense become 
increasingly more difficult, it is imperative that the United States acquire a 
greater knowledge of the oceans for the socioeconomic future of the American 
people, military security, and the assurance that the United States develop scien- 


tifieally and technologically so as to begin harvestng vital resources from the sea 
and to utilize the advantage of deep sea operations for strategic military 

It is considered essential to the orderly progress of pursuing the host of studies 
involved in manned exploration of the deep sea that deep submersible vehicles 
and shore facilities, scientific personnel, and existing experience be integrated to 
provide the United States with the most effective means of maintaining leader- 
ship in deep oceanic research. The established operating base for the bathyscaph 
Trieste, at the U.S. Navy Electronics Laboratory, which is adjacent to the most 
suitable location for bathyscaph operations in the United States, appears to be the 
most propitious location for such a base. In addition, the Nation's largest 
community of scientists and personnel concerned with basic and directed oceanic 
research is located in the San Diego area. 

Coupled with the oceanic specialists is a scientific, technical, and educational 
community that will contribute to the overall effectiveness of such an establish- 
ment. As a military center, San Diego continues to encompass one of the Nation's 
largest Navy establishments. The U.S. Navy Electronics Laboratory, in particu- 
lar, possesses many facilities that would be immediately available to any 
expanded deep submersible program. Future developments in subsurface vehicles 
and oceanic research is also of extreme concern to fleet commands; several of 
these are located in San Diego. The scientific community surrounding the United 
States Navy Electronics Laboratory is fully cognizant of the needs of military 
operations and that there is no comparison between the urgencies of the problems 
of the oceans and those of outer space. In the great depths of the sea, there rest 
strong potential advantages for detection, evasion, surveillance, and control of 
vast areas of the sea by those vessels that can master the problems of operating 
in the abyss. Utilization of the third dimension in the sea by the Navy is becom- 
ing more of a reality with the advent of deep submersibles. Adding the potential 
of being nuclear powered, the deep-traveling vehicle will be the craft of the future 
that will be able to utilize all of the strategic advantages offered by the deep sea 
environment. Therefore, it is vital that the United States endeavor to maintain 
a significant lead in deep sea research using manned deep submersibles and 
advanced instrumentation to accelerate our knowledge of this newly opened 


One of the prime reasons for the seemingly poor diving record during the 
Trieste's first year in the U.S. Navy was that of securing proper support for the 
craft. The personnel had to have time to become properly indoctrinated with 
operation and maintenance of Trieste. There were no printed instruction man- 
uals or precepts other than the personal experience of one man, Jacques Piecard. 
It was a case of learn by doing. No formal classes were held ; rather, we learned 
by the apprenticeship system. A great deal of equipment had to be procured, 
much of which was neither military standard nor off the shelf. Time-consuming 
delays were experienced in trying to find the U.S. equivalent to many of the 
Trieste's European-made parts ancl in converting many of the craft's fittings from 
metric to U.S. standards. Shore facilities were allocated at the Navy Electronics 
Laboratory. However, they were assigned before anyone had seen the bathy- 
scaph, and some revision of the space estimates was in order when it finally ar- 
rived. It was a very slow process getting used to this completely unorthodox 

Shore facilities 

Shore facilities for the bathyscaph are all located in the waterfront area of 
N.E.L. and, besides office space, include the following: A fenced concrete com- 
pound for drydocking stowage and shop spaces, and berthing space between two 
wooden piers. 

Deficiencies in shore facilities include the following : 

(a) The present fenced compound is inadequate, if another vehicle should be 
built and assigned to N.E.L. 

f h ) A ballast storage area should be provided. 

(c) A fuel handling System capable of absorbing the 30,000 gallon fuel load 
of the Trieste should be provided at the facility. 

(<l) Shop space in the order of 5,000 square feet should be available and ex- 
pandible to provide a machine shop, instrumentation shop, storage of delicate 
equipments and spare parts, work area for sphere instrumentation and repair, 
a darkroom for special deep-sea cameras, and a high pressure test facility. 


(e) \fhe berthing space for the Trieste should be a protected space which 
gives good insurance against waves from passing vessels, boarding by unauthor- 
ized personnel and maximum protection against possible fires. The group also 
has a 53-foot landing craft converted to a workboat and a 17-foot wooden lobster 
boat which is used as a tender boat during operations. These two craft require 
docking space near the bathyscaph. 

(/) Machinery stowage space should also be provided. 

(g) A stowage area for flammable fluids should be built. 

Afloat facilities 

The delicate bathyscaph was not built to withstand the stresses of a long tow 
at sea. During the recent operations on Project Nekton it was necessary to 
tow the craft for several days at a time through fairly rough sea conditions. 
At the completion of each tow and prior to diving a careful inspection was 
made of the craft and each time we found several items either destroyed or 
missing. Thankfully, nothing was damaged such that we could not make the 
dive; however, this was just a matter of luck and if we continue to operate in 
this fashion we will most certainly sustain a disabling casualty. 

The large workboat cannot be token to sea on any operation more than a few 
miles off the coast. The small tender boat can be put aboard the towing vessel 
for transport to the diving area. 

The afloat facilities necessary to support the Trieste and other deep sub- 
mersibles should consist of the following : 

(a) A mother ship which is capable of picking up and cradling the vehicle 
or vehicles and the attendant small boats. This ship would also have numerous 
laboratory and shop facilities such that it would be a floating research facility 
capable of carrying out independent bathyscaph operations in any ocean. Until 
this ship is available the Trieste is virtually limited to coastal waters due to 
the extremely slow rate at which she can be towed. 

(b) A converted LCM landing craft has been modified so that it is able to 
tow the Trieste in sheltered waters thus obviating the need for requesting a tug- 
boat each time we wish to move the 120-ton bathyscaph. 

(c) The small tender boat is a small lobster boat which now fills the bill 

(d) A rubber raft is often used when the seas are too high to permit the 
launching of the tender boat. 


A combined military-civilian organization in support of the Trieste is most 
desirable. This organization should consist of a chief scientist in charge of the 
program, an officer in charge of the Trieste and other technical military and 
civilian personnel who would also handle bathyscaph operations. 

This concludes my prepared statement. 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you very much. Dr. Rechnitzer, for a very 
fine statement. I should like to ask you just a few questions. 

Do you consider the bathyscaph has been proved operational ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Yes, the bathyscaph has been proved operational. 
We have two naval officers as alternate pilots, and we have a limited 
number of civilian personnel and enlisted naval personnel at hand. 

Mr. Anffso. What scientific expeditions are you planning for next 
year ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Next year Ave will confine most of our operations 
to areas off San Diego, and these will be down to depths approaching 
6,000 feet, or about 1 mile, We have already found that the area, 
the sea floor, and the water over the sea floor in the San Diego area, 
are extremely rich in animal life, far more than we really expected. 
We also encountered rather strong currents at both 1,000 and 4,000 
feet, And these are of interest to us. The current is so strong that 
even the animal life is tumbled along the bottom. 

These measurements, very close to the bottom, are extremely hard 
to make by surface-lowered instruments, because you never know 
precisely how far you are up off the bottom. 


Mr. Miller. What direction are these currents ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. This varies on different visits. The quantity 
of animal life varies in the water masses. These dynamic changes are 
things we are extremely interested in, and understand poorly today. 

Mr. Anftjso. Do you think, Doctor, the urgency of the program, 
as you have described it, requires additional vehicles? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Yes, I do, because the bathyscaph moves pri- 
marily in the vertical sense. We need other crafts that lack perhaps 
the great depth capability of the bathyscaph, but which entail a 
great deal of mobility. This mobility will be utilized particularly 
to investigate the Continental Shelves, so we only need a craft ini- 
tially, we will say, that will go to something like 3,000 feet, but which 
can move long distances, and cover a great deal of the sea floor dur- 
ing one dive. 

Mr. Anfuso. Would you recommend that the Navy build a dupli- 

Dr. Rechnitzer. We have given this particular problem a great 
deal of thought, and it is most likely that we will continue to improve 
the bathyscaph that we now have at hand, as we, in addition to the 
sphere that went to the greatest depth, we also have a more modest 
one which will go to 20,000 feet. So we have a rather versatile 
bathyscaph vehicle on hand at the present time, and see really no need 
for a second one. 

Mr. Anfuso. If you did have a second one would you recommend, 
then, improvements in the construction of the bathyscaph? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Oh, very definitely. As we continue to make 
dives into the great depths, we are richly rewarded by having been 
able to test in the environment various concepts of structural design 
and materials. The overall engineering development of any craft 
will, of course, evolve after using the initial prototype. 

Mr. Anfuso. Would you tell us briefly what improvements you 
would recommend ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. We have a need for improved lighting. We have 
need for an improved or extension of our physical senses. In that 
regard we could use television, better sonar devices, current measur- 
ing equipment, and devices for measuring the chemical content of 
the water. 

Mr. Anfuso. How can measurements with the bathyscaph con- 
tribute to the Navy's underwater information ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. I think the easiest way to explain it would be 
to compare it with the airplane going up into a new environment. 
T^nt il it was being utilized by the fliers, there was no real need to give 
it a great deal of consideration. The science of meteorology was given 
a great impetus by the need for people who were going to use that 
environment as a means, or a mode, of travel. We have the same 
problems facing us in the deep sea. 

Mr. Anfuso. How import ant are these measurements to, let us say, 
building antisubmarine defenses? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Any additional information, particularly if it is 
more refined than we can get it today, and i I' we can get it more com- 
pletely, will add to any operations of equipment that will be subjected 
to great pressures or placed in various spots in the ocean. 


Mr. Anfuso. Can these measurements which you have talked about 
be made with equipment other than the bathyscaph, such as from 
surface ships ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. At the present time, not with the completeness, 
nor does it have the advantage of having man's eyes and mind back- 
ing up the observations and measurements, because you can interpret 
directly and save a tremendous amount of time by having man in the 
environment observing what is going on and making measurements 
at the same time. If you do it by a surface ship, you do not see these 
other dynamic activities that are going on. 

Mr. Anfuso. Doctor, I am curious to know why the bathyscaph has 
to be towed so slowly to the different sites? Why does it have to be 
towed at all ( Why cannot it be carried by a ship to the site I 

Dr. Rechnitzer. There is one serious complication at the present 
time: The bathyscaph cannot be lifted until the ballast and gaso- 
line are removed from the craft, and to do this requires more facilities 
than we have available. A mother ship, capable of receiving the 
gasoline, some 30,000 gallons, and some 16 tons of ballast, is required. 
And then, of course, it requires that a ship be relatively large to lift 
the 45-ton craft and set it on deck. 

Mr. Anfuso. Do you think that in the future you would have to 
have something like that ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Yes. We feel that this is almost mandatory not 
only for the bathyscaph, but for other small submersibles that are in 
planning, and will probably be coming along in the near future. 

Mr. Anfuso. What kind of logistic support does the bathyscaph 
now have assigned to it, and what are the Navy's future plans re- 
garding the support of this ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. At the present time our fleet consists of the Trieste, 
a converted landing craft, and one small lobster boat. 

During our operations we require a towing vessel, and this is as- 
signed for the specific periods at which we expect to go to sea. 

But working with the bathyscaph, it is somewhat like launching 
a missile. It isn't always ready to go at the specified date. We then 
have to fit it in with other Navy operations, and sometimes we are 
forced to then sit on the beach and wait until we have our next reser- 

Mr. Anfuso. My final question is, Is the experience with the bathy- 
scaph applicable to other deep submerged vehicles and, if so, how does 
the Navy presently plan to exploit the experience obtained by the 
bathyscaph crew through its record dives ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. I think one of the most trenchant examples of the 
benefits that can be derived from the bathyscaphs are the electrical 
leads that penetrate the sphere. These have held up against the tre- 
mendous pressures involved in these deep dives, and will be the 
nucleus for the development of better hull fittings for newer sub- 

Mr. Anfuso. I want to conclude by congratulating all of you gentle- 
men, and may I just say, or, rather, inquire. Lt. Don Walsh was the 
commanding officer of the Trieste; is that correct \ 

Lieutenant Walsh. I still am. 

Mr. Anfuso. You still are? 

Lieutenant Walsh. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Miller. May I interject here? 

Mr. Anfuso. Sure. 


Mr. Miller. Lt. Don Walsh comes from my district in California. 
I merely glory in this. When he was an even younger man I gave 
him an alternate appointment to West Point. In the meantime 
he wiggled and waggled an appointment to the Naval Academy. I 
am in a great spot, otherwise I could have said this is my boy. 

Lieutenant Walsh. I hope we are still friends. 

Mr. Anfuso. I would like to take some pride 

Mr. Miller. Incidentally, Lieutenant Shumaker is also a Cali- 

Dr. Rechnitzer. And I am also a Californian. 

Captain Phelps. I am also a Californian. 

Mr. Anfuso. I would like to get New York into this. There is 
some similarity. 

Mr. Miller. There is some similarity. 

Mr. Anftjso. Who else was with you, Lieutenant Walsh? 

Lieutenant Walsh. Jacques Piccard was with me. However, he 
is back in Switzerland designing another craft. 

Mr. Miller. I want to compliment you gentlemen. They did more 
than Lindbergh. These are the Wright brothers of the deep sea 
diving area, and I am very happy and honored to have them here. 

Mr. Anfuso. Mr. Van Pelt. 

Mr. Van Pelt. No questions. 

Mr. Anfuso. Mr. King. 

Mr. King. I have about several dozen, but there isn't time. 

Mr. Anfuso. We have 5 minutes. If you want to finish by 12, we 
have plenty of time, Mr. King, go ahead. 

Mr. Miller. Knowing Mr. King's penetrating questions, he 
wouldn't ask him over 5 minutes. 

Mr. King. When the Trieste went down, am I correct that there 
were no cables or hoses of any kind, it was completely independent : is 
that right? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. That is correct. 

Mr. King. Carrying its own air supply. How was that managed? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Well, the bathyscaph is primarily an underwater 
balloon, and for buoyancy we used gasoline, because it is much less 
compressible than any gas, such as helium or even air. 

Now, in contrast to a submarine, which alternately pumps water in 
and out for control, we do not do this. The pressures that would be 
involved preclude the use of air pressure. Instead, we go down witli 
the craft being heavy, and release weight at the depth to return back 
to the surface. To gain positive buoyancy you release weight, such 
as a balloon coming to Earth, it will release ballast to slow its descent. 

Using gravity as the power to move the craft, and regulating the 
weight of the craft hydrostatically by either being too heavy or too 
light is the mode of operation. 

Mr. King. I suppose a steel cable would have involved so much 
weight it would have been impracticable, is that right? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Its weight is impractical. When we go back to 
thinking about Beebe, and his bathysphere, which was lowered on a 
cable, a limitation and danger become apparent. You know if you 
played with your mother's clothes line, and you whipped it, then you 
would have the waves going along from (Mid to end ; if these come back 
in the proper mode, they are apt to break even the strongest cable. 


( )f course, the surface ship is going up and down, and you don't know 
what the sphere is doing down below. It is a more dangerous occupa- 
tion than the bathyscaph. 

Mr. King. You explained the bathyscaph was essentially an ele- 
vator, and there was little or no mobility on the bottom, I think that 
was explained the last time you testified. 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Yes. 

Mr. King. Will the day come when we can design a craft that will 
actually travel around on the bottom as an automobile ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Well 

Mr. King. Not as fast, but with reasonable mobility? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. It is necessary to get up a few feet off the bottom, 
it is rather soft mud, by the way, and it would be difficult, it would be 
sinking in all the time! Yes, it will come in time. The bathyscaph, 
as you know, was built on a shoestring. The objective was not so 
much to make horizontal motions, as to go up and down. 

We do have motors on it. we can drive along the bottom using the 
motors, or drift with the current, either one at our disposal. But this 
is a limited horizontal mobility. 

Mr. King. That will be achieved in due time, where we can explore 
the bottom effectively and stay down much longer. You were down 
20 minutes, I believe ? 

Lieutenant Walsh. Some 9 hours total, 20 minutes on the bottom. 

Mr. King. About 5 down and ?A/ 2 up ? 

Lieutenant Walsh. Right. 

Mr. King. Will the day come when we can spend many hours on 
the bottom? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. We hope. 

Lieutenant Walsh. Not only that, but making each hour count more 
than it can now, by proper instrumentation. 

Dr. Rechnitzer. It is all feasible. It is a matter of time and fund- 
ing, and moving in that direction. 

Mr. King. You can work out prosthetic devices, I think you call 
them, to reach out and grab things for samples. You had very few 
at this time, if any ; is that correct ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. That is right. 

Mr. King. But you will work that out. 

What did the fish eat down there — use the droppings from above, is 
that their diet ? 

Lieutenant Walsh. Apparently, in that there were none of the 
usual low forms of life apparent on the bottom, such as worms or 
evidence of worms, worm holes. Any kind of animals apparently 
must feed on material that drops from the higher regions of the 

Mr. King. And the oxygen you suggested would be brought there 
cither by currents or flora of some sort ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. It has to be brought by the currents. The flora, 
of course, are restricted to the upper few hundred feet of the ocean. 

Mr. King. Light disappears at about 1,000 feet, is that right? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. That is right- 
Mr. King. So you have no photosynthesis, you have no self- 
generating light, so to speak ? 



Dr. Rechnitzer. That is correct. 

Mr. King. So it all comes from above ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. It comes from above. 

One individual will eat another, and this chain continues all the 
way down to the sea floor. 

Mr. King. We have seen drawings frequently of artists' conception 
of these marine creatures with these — well, in fact, some of them. 
have been photographed at not such great depths, with the big pop- 
eyes, carrying little lamps on the end of these proboscises, or what- 
ever it is. Did you see any of those weird creations on the bottom? 
The fish that you described, Lieutenant Walsh, when you were here 
before, sounded like a very conventional fish with conventional eye-. 
and so on. 

Lieutenant Walsh. That is right. 

Mr. King. Did you see the weird type ? 

Lieutenant Walsh. No. I have never personally sighted such 
beasts. Of course, they do exist, and I believe perhaps Andy has in 
one of his dives, but I have not. 

Mr. King. If that fish had been brought up would it have exploded 
because of the pressure being released ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. No, it would be extended a small amount, just the 
amount you can compress any liquid such as are included in most of 
our tissues. So it would be only an expansion of maybe 7 percent. 
They would come up intact. This is why we have our large collection 
of deep sea fishes. 

Mr. King. And would live? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. It would most likely die of heat prostration, rather 
than suffer from a change in pressure, because of coining up from cold 
waters into the warm surface waters. 

Mr. King. Then we have had to relearn, or unlearn a lot of lessons. 
as a result of your experience ; is that right ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. We feel we have, yes. 

Mr. King. What you testified to here, and the last time you were 
here, was rather contrary to some of the things I have read, for exam- 
ple, in Life's, The World Around Us, that came out 5 or G years ago. 

I think you said several things that constituted quite an improve- 
ment on what they said. 

That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you, Mr. King. 

Mr. Fulton, we are through, except for you. 

Mr. Fulton. Well, as a newspaper man, might I say you made one 
tremendous mistake when you were down here, you didn't even set' :i 
sen monster or a Soviet submarine. 

Mr. Miller. They are scientists. 

Mr. Fulton. You saw neither one of those ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Perhaps that showed that the Soviets couldri'l 
do it. 

Mr. Anfuso. Right. 

Mi-. Fulton. T am interested seriously, though, in how you were 
funded for your current operations. In the current fiscal year are 
your funds adequate? 

Secondly, are your equipment and instruments adequate? 


Thirdly, for the coming fiscal year, has there been any cutoff of any 
appropriation or authorization you have requested so that you are 
without any major equipment or ancillary equipment, for example? 

Do you have a better equipped mother ship, or a better bathyscaph. 
or a more mobile bathyscaph, that you might do better than, what is 
it, 1 mile an hour laterally ? Have you been cut off ? 

There has been a rumor around that you have received a cut by 

Dr. Rechnitzer. I think that we are being adequately funded for 
the coming fiscal year, and that progress toward an adequate mother 
ship is moving along just as fast as it is practicable. 

Mr. Fulton. Then you have not in any respect had an appropria- 
tion cut, either in the current fiscal year, or a cut in the request for 
authorization in the next fiscal year? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. We will not know probably until some time after 
the end of the fiscal year just where we do stand. 

Mr. Fulton. Yes, but at the present time there is no cut that you are 
complaining about ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. No, I have no serious complaint. 

Mr. Fulton. Is the appropriation adequate enough to keep you 
moving on your research on a level with the Russian effort ? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Yes, as far as we can see in the coming year, we 
will certainly continue to be ahead of the Russians. There is defi- 
nitely room for expansion in this field. More people, better vehicles, 
and more minds and hands need to be put to the task of getting more 
manned vehicles into the deep sea. 

Mr. Fulton. Rather than take the time now, would you put in the 
record a program where we could expand further bej-ond the present 
plans? Put that in the record later. If we were going to expand the 
program, how should we do it. 

Mr. Anfuso. Just put that in the record. 

(The material requested is as follows:) 

Supplement to Testimony by Dr. Andreas B. Rechnitzer to Committee on 
Science and Astronautics, House of Representatives, April 28, 1960 

Mr. Fulton. If we are going to expand the deep-sea oceanography program, 
how should it be done? What would you recommend for a continuing program? 

Dr. Rechnitzer. I consider it essential to the orderly progress of pursuing the 
multitude of developments required for a more extensive manned exploration 
of the deep sea that an expanded group of qualified scientists and support per- 
sonnel be equipped with adequate facilities to pursue a program of deep sub- 
mersibles and equipment development and to conduct basic and applied research 
in and on the oceans. 

The team effort has proven its value in establishing many U.S. firsts. There- 
fore, the complicated problems facing us in our plans to operate in the deep sea 
should be tackled by a team of adequate size (I visualize a minimum of 25 
scientists and 40 support personnel in addition to a civilian crew for a surface 
mother ship) and a scientific program of wide scope that will assure continuity 
and an economically sound expansion of our efforts by focusing technical and 
professional competence in the direction of expanding our deep-sea research 

Rapid progress could be made most efficiently by expansion of the U.S. Navy 
Electronics Laboratory group and facilities for deep-sea oceanographic research : 
this would assure maximum utilization of: (a) oceanograpers already trained 
in deep-sea research, (6) established logistic support of the only U.S. deep sub- 
mersible (the bathyscaph Trieste), (c) the only U.S. personnel experienced in 
operating in the great depths (bathyscaph crew), and (d) a Government re- 
search and development facility already engaged in an oceanographic instru- 


mentation program. In addition, the Nation's largest community of scientists 
and personnel concerned with basic and directed oceanic research are located in 
the San Diego area. 

The bathyscaph team is already providing guidance to diverse types of indus- 
trial firms interested in the design, development, and construction of deep sub- 
mersibles and instrumentation systems. An expansion of this "sharing" of 
experience and practical knowledge can be of significant benefit to the Nation 
by bringing more talent to bear on deep-submergence problems. Expansion of 
the U.S. Navy Electronics Laboratory nucleus of personnel and equipment in- 
vestment would improve our posture as a leader in deep-sea research more rapidly 
than any other way that I can conceive. 

Mr. Fulton. That is all. 

Mr. Anfuso. Thank you, gentlemen. We are most happy to have 
had you here. Just remember we are your friends, and if you need 
anything from us just holler. 

Dr. Rechnitzer. Fine. 

Lieutenant Walsh. Thank you very much, sir. 

Mr. Anfuso. The meeting stands adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 12:07 the committee adjourned to meet again at 
10 a.m. on Friday, April 29, 1960.) 

(H.R. 6298) 

FRIDAY. APRIL 29, 1960 

House of Representatives, 
c iommitteb on science and astronautics, 

Washington, D.C. 

Following a presentation of Navy and Marine Corps colors by 
Secretary of the Navy William B. Franke to the committee at 10 a.m., 
the committee resumed its hearing at 10 :25 a.m., Hon. Overton Brooks 
( chairman ) presiding. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

This morning, gentlemen of the committee, Ave conclude these hear- 
ings. We have Dr. James H. Wakelin, Jr., Assistant Secretary of 
the Navy for Research and Development ; speaking on "Next 10 Years 
of Research in the Oceanic Sciences," and Dr. James E. Lipp, direc- 
tor of development planning, Lockheed Aircraft Corp., on the sub- 
ject of "Pioneer Ventures in Underseas Engineering." 

Dr. Wakelin, Assistant Secretary of the Navy, we are very, very 
happy to have you here, sir, this morning, and mighty glad that you 
participated with us too in the presentation of the flag that we just 

(Dr. Wakelin's biography is as follows :) 

James H. Wakelin, Jr. 

James H. Wakelin, Jr. was born in Holyoke, Mass.. on May 6, 1911. He 
attended the public schools in Holyoke, graduating from high school in 1928. 
He received an A.B. degree in physics from Dartmouth College in 1932. During 
1932-34 he attended Cambridge University, Cambridge, England, where he was 
granted a B.A. degree in the natural sicences in 1934 and a M.A. degree in 1939. 
Dr. Wakelin received his Ph. D. degree in physics from Yale University in 1940, 
where he specialized in the field of ferro-magnetism. During 1939-43 Dr. Wake- 
lin was a senior physicist in the physical research department of the B. F. 
Goodrich Co., Akron, Ohio. His work there was concerned with the structure 
and physical properties of natural and synthetic rubber, and with X-ray dif- 
fraction and electron microscope studies of high polymers. 

From 1943 to 1945 he was ordnance staff officer to the Coordinator of Research 
and Development, Navy Department, Washington, D.C. During 1945-46, as a 
lieutenant commander, U.S.N.R., he was head of the Chemistry, Mathematics, 
and Mechanics and Materials Sections of the Planning Division, Office of Re 
search and Inventions, and was active in the planning and organization of the 
Navy's program to sponsor basic scientific research, now under the direction of 
the Office of Naval Research. Following World War II, Dr. Wakelin joined a 
group of former Navy research scientists in the establishment of Engineering 
Research Associates, Inc., of Washington, D.C, and St. Paul, Minn., and held 
the position of director of research. While with this company he was also 
director of the field survey group of OXR Project Squid under contract to 
Princeton University. In 194S he became associate director of research of the 
Textile Research Institute in Princeton, and in June 1951 was appointed director 



of research of the institute, serving in this capacity for 3 years. In 1954 Dr. 
Wakelin established his own consulting business in Princeton and has been a 
consultant on research planning and organization to the Lamp Division, General 
Electric Co., Cleveland, Ohio ; Stanford Research Institute, Palo Alto, Calif. ; 
American Radiation & Standard Sanitary Corp., New York City ; J. P. Stevens 
& Co., Inc., New York City ; Frenchtown Porcelain Co., and Star Porcelain 
Co., of Trenton, N.J. He was one of the founders in 1954 of Chesapeake In- 
strument Corp., Shadyside, Md., established to conduct research and develop- 
ment for the Navy in the fields of underwater sound and acuostic devices. He 
has been a vice president and consultant of that company. During this period 
he was also a research associate on the staff of Textile Research Institute work- 
ing on the structure and physical properties of high polymers under a program 
sponsored by the Office of Naval Research. 

Dr. and Mrs. Wakelin, the former Margaret Cushing Smith of Concord, Mass., 
have lived in Lawrenceville, N.J., for the past 10 years. They have three boys : 
James H. Ill and Alan B., who attend the Lawrenceville School, and David, a 
student at the Princeton Country Day School. The Wakelins have been active 
with the Cub Scouts and the Parent Teachers Association in Lawrenceville and 
with the American Red Cross in Princeton. Dr. Wakelin served as President of 
the Nassau Club of Princeton in 1955 and as a member of the Board of Trustees 
1956-59 ; he is also vice president of the Fathers' Association of the Lawrenceville 
School. Mrs. Wakelin is active as a volunteer with the Princeton Hospital 
where she is now chairman of the hospital aid committee. The family's recrea- 
tional hobbies include golf and sailing and they spend their summer vacations 
on Pickering Island in Penobscot Bay, Maine. 

Dr. Wakelin is a member of Sigma Xi, the American Physical Society, Ameri- 
can Association for the Advancement of Science, the Association for Computing 
Machinery, the American Crystallographic Society, Textile Research Institute, 
the Textile Institute of Great Britain, and is a contributor of scientific papers to 
the Journal of Applied Physics, the Industrial and Engineering Chemistry and 
Textile Research Journal in the field of high polymer physics. He is a co-author 
with C. B. Tompkins and W. W. Stifler, Jr., of "High-Speed Computing Devices" 
published by McGraw-Hill Book Company in 1950. 

Dr. Wakelin was appointed by the President of the United States to the 
position of Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Research and Development on 
June 30, 1959. 

Dr. Wakelin. It is a pleasure, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. I reiterate the committee is grateful to the Navy 
and the Marine Corps for their interest in the welfare of our 

If you have a prepared statement, will you proceed, sir, with your 
prepared statement ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 


Dr. Wakelin. Mr. Chairman, gentlemen, I appreciate the oppor- 
tunity of appearing- before you today to discuss our long-range plans 
in oceanography. The comments I have to make to you will stem 
from two points of view. 

First, as Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Research and Devel- 
opment, I am concerned with the Navy's traditional interests in the 
oceans; oceanography affects every aspect of our operations from 
the Polaris fleet ballistic missile system to undersea warfare to am- 
phibious and mine operations. 

Second, as chairman of the Interagency Committee on Oceanog- 
raphy of the Federal Council for Science and Technology, I am 
concerned with increasing this Nation's knowledge of the oceans — 


their content, their boundaries — by substantially accelerating our 
efforts in an orderly program during the next 10 years. 

From the witnesses who have preceded me you have had expert 
testimony concerning the importance of the oceans in our national 
defense. Within the past few days some of the Nation's most distin- 
guished oceanographers have described to this committee and to Sena- 
tor Magnuson's Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce our 
urgent needs in this most important field of oceanography. They 
have emphasized that a thorough understanding of the ocean medium 
is essential for our country's defense, for harvesting the abundant 
foods, minerals, and chemicals from the seas, for the safe disposal of 
low-level atomic wastes, for worldwide transportation, and for an 
understanding of the ocean's effect on climate and weather. We are 
painfully aware that our knowledge and understanding of this inner 
space is indeed limited but we are not completely ignorant of the 
problems we are required to solve in this area. 

The scientists who have discussed oceanography with you are 
leaders in their fields. Through their efforts and their continuing 
enthusiasm we are now beginning to push back the frontiers. 

It is my purpose to describe for you what is being done to provide 
a well-planned and coordinated national oceanographic program. 
Our needs in this field are real and pressing — our efforts need not be 
expanded simply to overcome a lag behind some other world power in 
this field of science. 

Recognizing the seriousness of inadequate oceanographic informa- 
tion from the scientific, technical, and military points of view, the 
Federal Council for Science and Technology established a subcom- 
mittee last summer to prepare a coordinated national oceanographic 
program. This committee, now called the Interagency Committee on 
Oceanography, has recently been made a permanent instrument of the 
Federal Council with representation from the Departments of De- 
fense, Commerce, Interior, Health, Education, and Welfare, the Na- 
tional Science Foundation, and the Atomic Energy Commission. 

The Interagency Committee carefully reviewed the report of the 
National Academy of Sciences — National Research Council's Commit- 
tee on Oceanography. In this report the Academy recommended a 
minimal program for long-term growth at an achievable rate in train- 
ing of scientific manpower, construction of adequate ships and lab- 
oratories, as well as a technical program for research and ocean 

The Interagency Committee concurred generally with the National 
Academy and concluded that the report accurately stated the Nation's 
scientific needs in oceanography. In the development of a national 
oceanographic program, we are concerned on the one hand with the 
assessment of the needs of oceanography and, on the other, with the 
limitations upon its development. The critical limitations are scien- 
tific manpower, funds, and time. Of course, I refer to a special kind 
of time- — leadtime for the construction of ships and shore laboratories 
and for the training of the additional scientists. 

The Interagency Committee recommended to the Federal Council 
that the United States undertake a substantial and orderly expansion 
of activity in oceanography. The Committee stated that vigorous 
action must be taken to stimulate the growth of educational pro- 


grams, that a permanent interagency committee should be established 
to review and coordinate the national effort and that international 
cooperation is essential to the research and survey program. 

These recommendations were accepted and endorsed by the Federal 

The Interagency Committee then developed by joint plaiming the 
budget for a 10-year national program to implement these general 
recommendations. In the development of the initial funding re- 
quest for this program in the fiscal year 1961 budget, the agencies 
had to consider other competing needs of their respective depart- 
ments while striving to give greater support to oceanography. 

The total funding requested for the oceanographic program in 
fiscal year 1961 totals about $56 million, an increase of almost 50 
percent over the fiscal year 1960 level of $37 million. For the previous 
year, fiscal year 1959, funds for this work amounted to $24 million. 

I feel that this program provides for growth at a reasonable rate 
and that it satisfies the most critical needs of the departments and 
agencies in the field of oceanography. 

All of the Secretaries of the departments and heads of the agencies 
represented on the Interagency Committee have indicated to me that 
they consider this Committee an effective means for achieving co- 
ordination and cooperation in our national program. I believe that 
this organization, assisted by working groups or panels comprised 
of representatives from the interested Federal agencies will be re- 
sponsive to the needs of this country. 

What will a 10-year program require in terms of funds, facilities, 
and manpower ? The National Academy of Sciences report indicated 
that the program would cost $651 million in 1958 dollars over and 
above the rate at which the program was then being supported. This 
estimate is probably low when translated into 1961 dollars because 
the cost of doing business has increased. 

Also, we believe that the unit cost of construction of ships has 
been underestimated. Taking these factors into consideration, the 
Interagency Committee has estimated that the total cost will approxi- 
mate $1 billion during the 10-year program if our goal to double 
our present capability is to be realized. This is a modest goal when 
the level of our present knowledge is considered in relation to our 
needs. And I would like to sa} r that doubling the present activity 
in oceanography will require more than doubling the rate of expendi- 
tures because of the capital investments required. 

The Interagency Committee has estimated the major cost elements 
of the 10-year program to be as follows : 

(a) Oceanographic research and ship operations, $490 million. 

(b ) Ocean surveys and ship operations, $14-1 million. 

(c) Construction of 78 new ships and facilities, $405 million. 

In the first few years the annual cost of this program will of 
necessity be greater than the average cost per year over the 10-year 
period because of the immediate need for additional ships and shore 
facilities — both are high cost, long leadtime items. Little expansion 
can take place unless these capital items are provided. 

The. united States currently operates about 52 ships, mostly of 
small size, for oceanographic research and surveys. About 30 of 
these will require replacement during the next 10 years because they 
will be overasre. 



The recommended 10-year program requires the construction of 
78 new ships of sizes varying from about 500 tons to about 4,000 
tons. Conversion of existing ships, principally from the Navy Re- 
serve Fleet, has provided us with an oceanographic capability in the 
past and will undoubtedly continue to do so in the future for many 

However, construction of new research ships in preference to the 
conversion of existing hulls is considered essential for a number of 
reasons. The Navy is making a study of the efficiency and economy 
of new construction versus conversion for various applications to 
point to the most feasible methods of providing the Navy with the 
required oceanographic ships in the next 10 years. This includes 
those ships we plan to make available to nonprofit universities and 
institutions as well as those for inhouse laboratories. 

The most critical elements in expanding our effort in this field is 
the shortage of scientific personnel to man the ships and carry out 
a creative program. Recently, we have compiled data from 10 major 
universities and institutions concerned with training of oceanogra- 
phers as well as the conduct of research. This information is most 
encouraging and we must do everything possible to continue the trend. 
The number of professional oceanographers at the Ph. D., M.S., or 
equivalent level and the number of their graduate students for the 
past 3 years is summarized in the following table. These data show 
that there has been an increase of 28 percent in the professional level 
and of 80 percent graduate students over the last 3 years. 








By 1970 I believe we can expect the annual cost of the program to 
level off at approximately $85 million. This annual investment will 
offer a great return in national defense and in economic benefits to this 
country and to mankind. Here I would like to emphasize that be- 
ginning in fiscal year 1962 the annual cost of the program for several 
years may require funding in excess of $100 million. 

This large sum of money will be required specifically for the con- 
struction of ships and shore laboratories necessary for a significant 
expansion in the program. The training and educational program, 
however, will not be a large percentage of the total program cost. We 
feel that approximately $15 million will provide the means whereby 
an adequate number of oceanographers can be trained in the next 10 
years. This figure is a cost of education only — not the cost for facili- 
ties at educational institutions. 

The Navy, by far the largest supporter of oceanographic research, 
contracts with universities and nonprofit institutions for about three- 
fourths of its basic research program, the remainder is conducted in 
Navy-operated laboratories. The funding of this research and de- 
velopment work constitutes our contribution to the national oceano- 
graphic program. In addition, the Hyclrographic Office of the Navy 
conducts our extensive military survey program and the technical 
bureaus of the Navy contract for many other closely related military 


programs scattered throughout universities, Government laboratories, 
and industry. The cost of this effort approximates $14 million for 
military surveys and about $10 million for military research. Because 
of the peculiarly military character of these programs, their funding 
is not included in the national oceanographic program. 

The Navy's concern about the oceans today, as in the past, stems 
directly from military requirements. Here the most pressing and 
best known problem lies in the field of undersea warfare. I have 
brought with me a tape recording of sounds of undersea creatures 
which illustrates the nature and complexity of the problem of under- 
water detection and classification. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, with your permission I can run this off, which 
will take about 5 minutes. 

The Chairman. Fine. 

Dr. Wakelin. It is a tape prepared by Rear Adm. John S. Thach, 
the then commander of Task Force Alpha working out of Norfolk 
for his staff and for our use, and with your permission I might turn 
it on. 

The Chairman. I think the committee would be very much inter- 
ested in it. 

Dr. Wakelin. Thank you, sir. 

(The recording is as follows :) 

Admiral Thach. North America is virtually an island, and right off our door- 
step is a relatively unexplored jungle, whole mountain ranges, deep canyons, 
and many strange creatures are hidden there beneath millions of cubic miles of 
sea water. 

This liquid space, about which we know so little, is a murky mass of discon- 
tinuities, full of sound ducts, currents, and thermal layers. Most incredible of 
all is the noise racketing through the undersea jungle. 

I have a tape recording I would like to play for you to give you an idea of 
what some of the undersea creatures sound like. 

The first example is a recording of snapping shrimp against the background 
of typical ambient sea noise caused by waves and other marine creatures. 

[Recording of sounds.] 

Admiral Thach. This next one is a drum fish. 

[Recording of sounds.] 

Admiral Thach. Now we have an unidentified moaning sound. No one can 
tell us exactly what is making this noise. 

[Recording of sounds.] 

Admiral Thach. The next sound is that produced by a white whale. You 
will be able to distinguish a high-pitched whistling, followed by creaking sounds. 
We do not know exactly how the white whale makes these noises. 

[Recording of sounds.] 

Admiral Thach. Next is the sound of an electric eel killing a small fish. The 
regular rapid clicking is believed to be the eel's own sonar that he uses to find 
his prey and the sinister burst of sharp buzzing sound is the electric discharge 
of the coup de grace. 

[Recording of sounds.] 

Admiral Thach. The noises you have just heard illustrate some of the many 
sounds against which the submarine noises must be distinguished. 

The next sound is that of a submarine trim pump in an otherwise quiet 

[Recording of sounds.] 

Admiral Thach. Now we have the sound of a submarine raising a periscope. 
This was recorded rather close aboard. 

[Recording of sounds.] 

The Chairman. That is very interesting. Would that help us with 
our fishing, Mr. Secretary? 

Dr. Wakelin. It may, very definitely. 

It doesn't help us with our antisubmarine warfare though. 


The Chairman. Do you mean by that, the disturbances distract 
from the detection of submarines ? 

Dr. Wakelin. They do, indeed, and they form a large part of the 
whole ambient noise background which must be separated from what 
you are looking for. 

In a great many cases the sounds that are produced here are in the 
same frequency range in the sound spectrum with that which is 
produced by submarines and ships. So it is a delicate matter to be 
able to take the background noise away and improve our signal-to- 
noise ratio in looking for and locating submarines. 

Mr. Miller. Those are only a few of the noises you get too. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. There are dozens of them. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, there are, sir. There are additional noises also 
from the whole dynamics of the wave motion. 

Mr. Bass. How are these noises recorded, Mr. Secretary ? 

Dr. Wakelin. These are recorded, part of them on a sonar device, 
and part of them just using a straight transducer, with a normal audio 
frequency amplifier. 

Mr. Bass. If you were a skindiver, would you hear the same thing ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, if you had earphones with an audio amplifying 
device, you could pick up these same sounds. It would be an in- 
teresting experiment to do. 

The Chairman. A fresh water fish would produce different noises 
from that? 

Dr. Wakelin. They probably would produce noises characteristic 
of the fish themselves, yes. 

The Chairman. I had heard some of fresh water fish. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. You never had a characteristic pattern picked up 
of Soviet submarines, have you ? 

Dr. Wakelin. I am afraid I can't answer that, sir. 

The Chairman. Can you pick up the noise of Polaris submarine? 

Dr. Wakelin. Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. You could distinguish that from non-Polaris sub- 
marine ? 

Dr. Wakelin. I am afraid I can't answer that, sir. 

The Chairman. Just proceed with your statement. We don't want 
to go too far afield. 

Dr. Wakelin. It is simple enough to define research in underwater 
acoustics as the study of the generation, propagation, and reception 
of somid in the ocean. And yet we have just heard that the prob- 
lems involved are as complicated as the ocean itself. To exploit fully 
this complex environment for offensive and defensive purposes, we 
must know and understand the characteristics of the oceans, and we 
must know why and when these characteristics change. 

Other activities using knowledge of the oceans include the fore- 
casting services performed by the Hydrographic Office. On the 
basis of sea and wave forecasts of the North Atlantic and Pacific 
Oceans, ships can be routed in such a manner as to arrive at their 
destinations more quickly and with less chance of damage from heavy 
sea conditions than might otherwise be the case. 


Similarly, the Hydrographic Office provides forecasting service 
for ice conditions in the Arctic to assist the ships in resupplying the 
DEW line bases. 

Aside from the military aspects of oceanography a knowledge of 
the interaction between the atmosphere and the ocean with the result- 
ing effect on climatic changes may produce profound effects in the 
eventual control and modification of weather. 

The resources of the sea, particularly the living resources, must 
ultimately play a larger role in the world's economy. The seas also 
may be expected to provide potential mineral and chemical resources, 
as well as exotic sources of power. 

The Coast Guard, Coast and Geodetic Survey, Hydrographic 
Office, and Maritime Administration are all concerned with problems 
of commerce at sea. Numerous types of charts showing bottom to- 
pography, weather conditions, sea states and swells, currents, tides, 
and ice conditions are all essential for successful maritime operations. 

A great deal of additional research must be conducted to establish 
the whys and wherefores of these conditions in order to make them 
more reliable. 

I could describe for you some of the intriguing possibilities for 
exploiting the oceans to benefit mankind, but I am sure you are al- 
ready familiar with many of them. Instead, I would like to make 
a few comments about how the Government is going about the im- 
portant task of coordinating and expanding our oceanographic 

The report of the National Academy of Sciences has focused na- 
tional attention on the needs of oceanography. The Interagency 
Committee has demonstrated its effectiveness in a short time as a co- 
ordinating mechanism. In response to the tasks facing it, the Com- 
mittee has established working panels for specific purposes. The 
function of one panel is to plan and coordinate our ocean survey 
program. A second panel has the responsibility for working out the 
details for establishing and the policies for operation of a national 
data center. We are considering additional panels for training and 
education, for basic research, and possibly one for special devices 
and instrumentation. 

Our next major task is to develop the budget for fiscal year 1962. 
Each agency's program and the national program as a whole will be 
reviewed critically by the committee for balance and technical va- 
lidity. The final result must be adequate to meet our most immediate 
needs using the resources available while emphasis must be placed 
on providing the tools we need on a long term basis. 

We expect to seek endorsement of this program and budget from 
the Federal Council for Science and Technology and approval from 
the President before presenting it to Congress as a complete national 
program in oceanography. 

Finally, I come to the contributions which the Congress has made 
and can make to oceanography. Each of the several bills which are 
now being considered by the Congress has had a salutary effect by 
attracting widespread interest in oceanography both within and out- 
s'de of the Government. However, I believe that the Federal agen- 
cies now have the authority necessary to carry out our oceanographic 
program. We need your favorable consideration of the budget re- 


quests of the several departments and agencies cooperating in this 

An analysis shows us that oceanography is being emphasized and 
that our national effort in this field is being expanded considerably. 
I suggest that oceanography has a high probability of providing us 
with a greater return on our investment than some of the programs 
of equal magnitude which are currently more fashionable. 

It has been said that, like the subject "Atoms for Peace," we can 
use the oceans for peace. We must have leadership on the oceans 
in the face of the threat of war and equally we must have leadership 
on the oceans in our hopes and our work toward peace. 

Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. A very excellent statement, Mr. Secretary. 

I notice especially your approach to the problem and to this com- 
mittee. I notice also you refer to the Interagency Committee and to 
its financial needs in the future. 

You refer to personnel being a very critical problem, especially 
scientific personnel, and it so happens that the bill under which you 
are testifying today refers to that. 

Did you place in the record a list of the universities, colleges and 
institutions which are doing this training work throughout the 
country ? 

Dr. Wakelin. I have it here, if you would like me to place it in 
the record, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Is it a short list? Would you read it then, and 
read it into the record ? 

Dr. Wakelin. All right. 

The institutions which submitted the data which you have just re- 
quested, Mr. Chairman, include the following : 

Columbia University, Johns Hopkins University, Oregon State Col- 
lege, Texas A. & M., University of Miami, University of Rhode Island, 
University of Southern California, University of Michigan, Scripps 
Institution of Oceanography, and the Woods Hole Oceanographic 

The Chairman. I wasn't here yesterday and I am not up to date on 
what was said yesterday, therefore, I am going to recognize my col- 
league, Mr. Miller. 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Secretary, I have no questions, but you mentioned 
Scripps Institution of Oceanography. I believe the record should 
show this is a part of the University of California. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Miller. It is a branch of the university. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. Woods Hole is an independent institution. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Miller. But Scripps is a part of the university. 

Of course, Mr. Secretary, I have been through hearings of this kind 
before on another committee that is interested in this field, but I am 
interested in some of the things that you said. 

Early in your statement you said the harvesting of the abundant 
foods, minerals and chemicals, were part of the work you are in- 
terested in. 

This implies, I believe, biology. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes ; it does. 


Mr. Miller. Are we doing, today, sufficient in this field ? 

I understand the Navy's interest in physical oceanography, but as 
a scientist, do you feel that we have gone far enough in trying to reap 
the peaceful benefits ? 

Do you feel that at this time we should be laying the foundation for 
that, which is not inconsistent with the other thing, in order to have 
knowledge of the biology of the sea and what it is going to offer in the 
way of peaceful benefits ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes ; I do, Mr. Miller. There are two aspects of it 
with which we are concerned on the Interagency Committee. The 
Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, of course, is increasing its budget 
for the study of the fisheries part of the oceanographic program. In 
general I concur in the National Academy's report that much more 
has got to be done in the field of marine biology to lay the founda- 
tion, not only in the research vein, but also a study which will lead to 
the development of methods by which we can harvest both the organic 
and inorganic materials from the oceans. 

Mr. Miller. Of course, you are familiar with the organic materials 
because they are the life from the sea, and men have been taking food 
from the sea since the dawn of history, since the dawn of time, but we 
have done little in the other fields, of the inorganic phase of taking the 
wealth of the seas ; is that true ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Except for the production of things like magnesium. 

Mr. Miller. And the boron products ? 

Dr. Wakelin. And things of this kind ; yes. 

Mr. Miller. Other than that, there is a field here, the manganese, 
that I think you touched upon. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes ; those are most interesting. Nodules have been 
found in the area southwest of Bermuda, of the size of a baseball, 
appearing to be rich in the oxides of manganese, cobalt, and nickel. 
Scientists from Woods Hole are now beginning to feel, as a result 
of their work on the structure of the nodules, that the nodules may 
have an organic rather than an inorganic origin. 

Now, these are things we don't understand; the production and 
the concentration of materials like manganese, nickel and cobalt in 
nodules, rich in these and other materials in this part of the periodic 
table, are difficult to understand, in terms of mechanism. 

Mr. Miller. When I was out at Scripps they gave me a shark's 
tooth that was taken out of one of these nodules. Whether it is the 
usual thing, whether it had to have something to build itself around 
or not, I don't know, because it was purely incidental: the} 7 were 
showing them to me, and picked one out of the tray and gave it to 
me. They had to break the manganese away from the tooth. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. Of course, I was anxious to get the tooth because there 
is a popular song now about the sharks having white teeth. These 60 
million years old were a little bit yellow to me. [Laughter.] 

You also mentioned the matter of the disposal of low-level atomic 
waste. This is a matter that is of concern and I don't want to go from 
one committee to another, but one which has given us a groat deal 
of concern. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. I imagine the low-level waste material going into the 
ocean now is inert by the time it gets there ? 


What is going to happen to it? I notice the Department of Defense 
has disposed of surplus or toxic gases, mustard gas, by taking it out 
and dumping it into the sea. In one instance they loaded a Liberty 
ship, took her out and sank her. 

Do you feel the sea should be used as the dumping ground for the 
refuse of the land, and can it have an effect upon the biology of the 
sea if we continue this, to make it a refuse pile for those things we 
find on land that we want to dispose of ? 

Dr. Wakelin. I think purely in the field of chemical, as well as 
atomic waste, that we generally don't know enough about the circu- 
lation of the oceans and the effect of these materials in their own 
environment, regardless of where they are being spread, to be able to 
tell, to be able to decide intelligently, where, if we have to dump 
them in the oceans, we should do it. 

Mr. Miller. I am happy to have you say that. 

May I call your attention to the fact that the National Geographic 
magazine, a few months ago, had a story about some French oceanog- 
raphers who had been hired by the Japanese Government to study 
some of the upwellings off the Japanese coast to see whether it was 
safe to dump atomic wastes there, and the answer was no. We don't 
known where these upwellings are coming on our coasts; we don't 
know enough about this subject yet, other than there is a wide expanse 
and this is a cheap place to dump it, take it out to sea and get rid of 
it ; isn't that the attitude ? 

Dr. Wakelin. And it is far removed from land. Right, 

Mr. Miller. Well, how far can you remove atomic waste from land 
when you don't know where the currents in the ocean will carry it ? 

Dr. Wakelin. That is correct ; you can't, Until both our static and 
dynamic studies are much more nearly complete in terms of the cir- 
culation of various areas, of even the Atlantic Ocean off of our own 

Mr. Miller. In any event, we don't know. Ten years ago we didn't 
know there was a Cromwell current, did we ? 

Dr. Wakelin. That is correct. That was discovered during the 
IGY, I believe. 

Mr. Miller. I believe it was the IGY. The Cromwell current is the 
one Dr. Brown referred to yesterday, but not by name, that runs from 
west to east, along the equator. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. And is as big as 1,500 Mississippi Rivers, they say. 

Dr. Wakelin. The rate of flow ; that is right. 

Mr. Miller. The rate of flow ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, and this was one of the principal discoveries in 
the dynamics of the oceans resulting from the IGY. 

The Chairman. The rate of flow of the Mississippi River now down 
toward the lower part of it is about, as I remember, about one and 
a half million cubic feet per second, up to 3 million cubic feet per 

Mr. Miller. This current I believe is about 1,000 feet below the sur- 
face of the ocean, maybe not quite that far, and it is nearly 200 miles 
wide, roughly 200 miles, and 1,500 feet deep. Figure that kind of 
a river flowing back. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 


Mr. Miller. I am not a biologist, but every once in a while there 
showed up on the west coast of South America a species of fish par- 
ticularly common to the east coast and people wondered how they got 
there. Now we are beginning to see they got into the current. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Miller. I want to congratulate you on a very forceful state- 
ment. I am familiar with the work of the Interagency Committee. 
I should tell the Chairman for the bill he is considering now, I have 
been on another committee trying to do the same thing; the reports 
were very unfavorable. I notice we haven't any reports in this bill, 
so this may interest you in passing. 

Dr. Wakelin. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton. 

Dr. Wakelin. Mr. Chairman, may I put in one remark? 

The Chairman. Surely. 

Dr. Wakelin. I believe in regard to the questions you asked me 
about the submarines, I can answer them privately for the committee 
at your convenience. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Dr. Wakelin. It is a question of military security. 

The Chairman. Before you leave perhaps we will have an oppor- 
tunity to go in for an executive session for a moment. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton. 

Mr. Fulton. I would like to have a comparsion put in the record 
between the proposals of the National Academy of Sciences and their 
budget for the next 10 years, as distinguished from proposals of the 
Interagency Committee, so that we can see what the differences are, 
and what the difference in cost is. 

Secondly, I would like to have put in a comparison between our pro- 
gram projected and what we know has been done in the past few years 
of the Soviet program and then a projection of the probability of what 
they will be doing based on the present gradient they have established. 
That is all. 



(The information requested is as follows :) 

Comparison of fiscal year 1961 oceanography budget recommendations 

[Millions of dollars] 


dation of 

dation of 
ICO 2 



$28. 830 
8. 350 

36. 114 
20. 418 
18. 580 

$22. 919 

13. 233 






64. 630 
23. 630 

88. 260 

120. 22S 


1 The National Academy of Sciences Committee on Oceanography recommendations in 1958 dollars for 
costs over and above 1958 level of support for oceanography. 

2 Interagency Committee on Oceanography recommendations in 1961 dollars. High total is result of 
recommended ship construction. 

» Not including military research and development. 

Comparison of United States and U.S.S.R. Projected Programs 

The U.S. oceanographic capability can be measured in number of ships, 
scientists, and dollar support. At the present we operate about 52 ships and 
have about 500 to 600 professional oceanographers. The fiscal year 1961 budget 
for oceanography exclusive of ship construction is $36.6 million. By 1970 we 
expect to have increased the number of our oceanographic ships to about 85 or 90 
and to have engaged about 1,100 or 1,200 competent scientists in oceanography. 
It can be expected that the costs for conduct of oceanographic research and 
surveys by 1970 will level off at approximately $85 million annually. 

Although receiving greater emphasis since World War II, oceanography has 
undergone a marked expansion in the Soviet Union since 1955, following the 
announcement of its plans to participate in the oceanography program of the 
International Geophysical Year (1957-58). Theretofore, Soviet oceanographic 
research was limited mostly to the regions bordering upon the U.S.S.R., and 
scientific relations with foreign scientists were essentially nonexistent. Since 
1955, the U.S.S.R. has displayed a large, modern research fleet second to none, 
has announced the construction of new research facilities, has operated its 
research fleet throughout the oceans of the world, and has organized a sizable 
manpower force to conduct oceanographic research. The period from 1955 
to 1960 definitely has been one of acquiring facilities, manpower, and scientific 


The Soviet oceanography program has been a survey effort to collect ocean- 
ographic observations of all types over broad geographic areas. (See attached 
chart of the IGY cruise tracks of Soviet ships.) The present research fleet 
of the Soviet Union to support this type of effort is comprised of a large number 
and variety of ship types ranging from small fishing vessels to the Mikhail 
Lomonosov (5,960 tons). It also includes the research submarine Severyanka. 
New vessels have been acquired almost annually for this fleet. Since 1957, the 
Mikhail Lomonosov, 5,960 tons; the Severyanka, 1,050 tons; the Voyeykov, 3,600 
tons; and the ShokaVskiy, 3,600 tons, have been added. The rate at which new 
ships are being acquired probably will continue for the next several years. 
Other converted submarines for research and underwater research vehicles, such 
as bathyspheres and bathyscaphs, also are expected to be acquired and supple- 
ment the surface research fleet within the next few years. Soviet plans to con- 
struct a bathyscaph were announced earlier this year and bathyspheres have been 
used for several years. 

Shore-based facilities also have been expanded and constructed during the 
past several years, mostly located in the Moscow area. However, plans to con- 
struct scientific bases for two oceanographic institutes were announced in 1958 
and a branch of the Marine Hydrophysics Institute was opened recently in 
Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea. Considering the distance from Moscow, and the 
Soviet effort that has been expended in the Pacific Ocean and bordering seas, 
the expansion and construction of facilities should be expected in the Far East 
during the next several years. 

The number of Soviet oceanographers, excluding marine biologists and fisheries 
researchers, is greater than 500. The total of their professional oceanographers 
is estimated as high as 800 to 900. The greatest expansion of manpower prob- 
ably took place when the Soviet Union expanded its program to participate in 
the International Geophysical Year. Many of the oceanographers are young 
and lack experience, a partial explanation for the placing of the great numbers 
of scientific personnel on the large ocean research ships. However, the quality 
of these young scientists should improve from the experience being gained from 
present shipboard research and the analyses of data collected since the Inter- 
national Geophysical Year. It seems that quality rather than quantity of 
scientists is now needed in the Soviet Union. 

The present research effort is oriented toward applications. Even the basic 
research conducted at the institutes of the Academy of Sciences tends to be di- 
rected toward ultimate applications. The institutes subordinate to ministries 
direct their research to support the efforts of the parent organizations. Polar 
and deep sea oceanographic research are the strongest areas in the Soviet 
program. Continued and intensive scientific activity in arctic regions to develop 
the Northern Sea Route has achieved a leading position in arctic oceanography 
for the Soviet Union : and the operations of the research fleet throughout the 
oceans of the world have shown an impressive ability to collect oceanographic 
data. High quality work also has been conducted in biology and fisheries re- 
search, marine geology and seismology, particularly in conjunction with deep 
sea research. The work in other areas of oceanographic research generally has 
not been of comparable quality. There is no information available concerning 
their military research efforts in oceanography. As the oceanographers gain 
experience, the quality of the research should generally improve within the next 
several years. 

It is generally conceded that the present size and the rate of expansion of the 
Soviet manpower and ships for oceanographic research are considerably greater 
than those of the United States, and possibly of the entire free world. Their 
oceanographic research, rated as excellent in some fields of the science, is gen- 
erally not as scientifically comprehensive as that of the United States. During 
the IGY their effort consisted of a well-rounded, exploratory-type program to 
collect basic information about the characteristics of the seas and oceans of the 
world. It did much to increase the stature of the U.S.S.R. among the world 
leaders in oceanography as well as to provide scientific support for the Soviet 
economic and political aspirations. 








The Chairman. Are there any questions? I am not going down 
the line, but does any member have a question ? 

Mr. Wolf. 

Mr. Wolf. Has there been any international study made on the 
possibility of developing the mineral and oil rights below the sea? 

Who has jurisdiction and so on? Or is it a first-come-first-served 

Dr. Wakelin. I am not sure I can answer that, Mr. Wolf. We can 
supply that for the record. 

Mr. Wolf. That is all right. It doesn't have to be answered at this 

Dr. Wakelin. Would you like that supplied for the record ? 

Mr. Wolf. That will be satisfactory. 

(The information requested is as follows :) 

(a) There has been an international convention declaratory of international 
law in which it is recognized that the coastal state is entitled to construct and 
maintain or operate on the Continental Shelf installations and other devices 
necessary for its exploration and exploitation of its natural resources (art. 5, 
par. 2, Convention on the Continental Shelf) . 

(&) Jurisdiction over the Continental Shelf off the coast of the United States 
for purposes of exploration control rests by statute with the Department of the 
Interior, under terms of the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act enacted on 
August 7, 1953 (67 Stat. 462). Regulations controlling the operations and leas- 
ing of these areas appear in the Code of Federal Regulations, 30 C.F.R. 250.1 
and 43 C.F.R. 201.1. 

(c) Article 5, paragraph 8 of the Continental Shelf Convention provides that 
"consent of the coastal state shall be obtained in respect of any research con- 
cerning the Continental Shelf and undertaken there." A l'eview of records avail- 
able in the Department of the Navy, as well as a review by representatives of 
State and Interior Departments, has revealed no international studies having 
been made to date under this provision of this convention concerning develop- 
ment of mineral and oil rights. The Legal Adviser's Office of the State De- 
partment informs that there was a preparatory document No. 20, dated January 
3, 1958 (preparatory to the 1958 Conference on the Law of the Sea), which was 
prepared by Admiral Mouton of the Netherlands, at the request of the Secretary 
General of the United Nations. The title of the document is "Recent Develop- 
ments in the Technology of Exploiting the Mineral Resources of the Continental 
Shelf." The foregoing was apparently an individual effort by Admiral Mouton 
rather than an "international study" by any group of representatives of the 
community of nations. This document was not published. 

Mr. Miller. At the third conference of the sea, there was recogni- 
tion of the right of the people adjacent to the Continental Shelf, 
adjacent to the country, to have the oil rights, or have rights to the 
minerals, and that attached to the floor of the sea, but by contrast, in 
the sea itself, the fisheries, or the life in the sea, are viewed as interna- 
tional. That is in this last Conference on the Law of the Sea that Mr. 
Van Pelt and I attended as observers for the Merchant Marine and 
Fisheries Committee, what they tried to do was to limit this and we 
took a terrible beating as we didn't get the limits we wanted. 

So we went back to the 3-mile limit, and it moans now a uniform 
rule has been thrown out of the United Nations and every country 
can determine its own limits and hold them against anyone else. So 
if Ecuador wants to say it is going to go out 200 miles, the only way 
we can conl rovert is to go to war with Ecuador. This is the bad thing 
<lia( has taken place at this conference of the sea. 

This came out, a good deal of it was brought about by concern with 
the Gulf of Mexico, as to who was going to own the oil wells. We can 
prospect on the Continental Shelf, that is all. 


Mr. Wolf. If we go beyond that, we are engaging — we would be 
raising the possibility of international conflict. 

Mr. Miller. It is open sea, belonging to everyone. 

The Chairman. We lost it by one vote, the limit to 6 miles, and 12 
miles for fishing rights. One vote more would have established an 
international rule which would have recognized all nations out 6 miles 
as against our position which has been 3 miles. 

Mr. Fulton. It should be commented on, it takes two-thirds. 

The Chairman. That it right. It takes two-thirds to establish 
international law. 

Mr. Wolf. On that same point, but off the subject of oceanography, 
last Monday at Cape Canaveral they made a point of the fact they 
would like to have the shelf extended a little for security reasons, for 
some of the work they are doing there. 

The Chairman. My own State of Louisiana would like to have it 
extended further out for several reasons. 

Mr. Wolf. I am aware of that. 

Mr. Miller. But the thing that comes up now, suppose Mexico, who 
stood out very strongly and led the fight for a 12-mile limit, a 12-mile 
territorial limit, announces to the world that she now recognizes and 
is claiming 12 miles out. This would destroy part of the fisheries of 
Louisiana and Texas for the men who have to fish in these waters. We 
didn't want the 12-mile limit. We reluctantly accepted the 6 and 6 
because even with the 6 and 6 the Pacific Northwest fisheries are going 
to be greatly embarrassed. The great salmon fishing area will prac- 
tically be an inland Canadian lake. We can't go into that. 

The Chairman. I don't want to go into that too far, but I would 
like to ask the Secretary an easy question: What would happen in 
the event Russia proceeded to demolish some of our oil and gas wells 
out beyond say the 12-mile limit, or suppose Russia came in and put 
in its own oil and gas wells ? 

Mr. Miller. I think the Secretary of State would be involved. 

The Chairman. Maybe he has an idea on it, but at least it presents 
a problem of a hostile nation invading our own territories, and ap- 
proaching our coastline to destroy property beyond the limits of this 
country as accepted by international law at this time. 

Dr. Wakelin. I think if there were an interplay between what 
happened in the international region and something which was terri- 
torial to us, this would present a completely new problem. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions here? We don't 
want the Secretary to get out too deep here. 

Mr. Wolf. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, I would be grateful for 
whatever information you can make available to the committee in this 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

(The information requested is printed on p. 56.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Karth. 

Mr. Karth. Mr. Secretary, I am sure you are aware of the fact 
that the Congress is economy minded and I appreciate the fact 
you are too, sir. With that, I would like to address myself to several 
questions relating to your testimony on page 4. 

The last sentence of the first paragraph, you say, "I feel that this 
program provides for growth at a reasonable rate and that it satisfies 


the most critical needs," meaning I assume an absolute minimum 
requirement. Is that correct, sir ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Karth. In 1960 I notice the level of expenditures was $37 
million ; is that correct ? 

Dr. Wakelin. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Karth. What was recommended by the Navy for fiscal 1960? 

Dr. Wakelin. I don't know that I could answer that right here in 
terms of the oceanographic research program. With respect to what 
the Navy went in for on a requirements basis, and what actually 
resulted in the appropriation for 1960, I can supply that for the 
record if I may. 

Mr. Karth. If you would, please. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, I will. 

(The information referred to is as follows :) 

Fiscal year 1960 Navy oceanographic program 

[Millions of dollars] 



Fiscal year 
1960 new obli- 
gations au- 

R.D.T. & 


O. & M.N. 

Oceanographic research 

One oceanographic research ship . 

Data handling and processing.. 




16. 725 

Note. — This table outlines the Navy's contributions to the national oceanographic program. Because 
of the peculiar character and classification of research and survey projects for military application, their 
funding is not included in the national oceanographic program. 

Mr. Karth. Can you answer this question ? Was it less than what 
the Navy recommended? 

Dr. Wakelin. My offhand guess is it probably was not, in the 
field of research and surveys. 

This work has been predominantly sponsored by the Office of Naval 
Research ; work in this field has been well supported within the Navy 
itself in terms of both research and development. 

Mr. Karth. Was the $37 million for example less than was recom- 
mended by the Committee on Oceanography ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Karth. Then in 1961 

Dr. Wakelin. The National Academy of Sciences' report ? 

Mr. Karth. Yes. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Karth. In 1961, you are requesting $56 million? 

Dr. Wakelin. This is the total program. 

Mr. Karth:. Plow does that compare with what the budget is 
recommending for that total program? 

Dr. Wakelin. I can speak only for the Navy on this. 

The Navy program is $22.9 million. We requested an additional 
large oceanographic ship which was in competition with ships of the 
line, military vehicles, and we were only able to fund, to put in a re- 


quest for one auxiliary general oceanographic research ship, an AGOR 
of 1,200 to 1,300 tons. 

The request for support in oceanography comes in three different 
appropriational areas, and if I might address myself to those just 
briefly for your information : 

The research and development area, of which the program of the 
Office of Naval Research is probably the largest component, is about 
$17,624 million. 

The shipbuilding and construction program, which is under a 
different appropriation commonly referred to in the Navy as SCN, 
with which you are familiar, is not under my purview. Out of that 
comes $4.9 million for one AGOR. 

There is another appropriation, "Operations and maintenance, 
Navy," from which there is a sum of $295,000 for data processing and 
handling, for a national data center. 

Mr. Karth. These are requests, Mr. Secretary ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, these are requests in the budget. 

Mr. Karth. The $56 million is more, however, than what is recom- 
mended in the budget, is that correct? Could you address yourself 
to that question? 

Dr. Wakelin. Well 

Mr. Karth. Without being specific, is it more or less than re- 
quested in the budget for that program ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Well, on the Navy's part, if I might address myself 
to that part of it first, the Navy's part is low probably by one AGS 
which is about $17 million — this is an oceanographic survey ship. 

The distribution of requests in the 1961 budget among the agencies 
making up the $56 million, if I might give you those for your infor- 
mation, includes for the Navy $22.9 million; for the Department of 
Commerce, $13.2 million ; for the Department of Interior, $7.5 million ; 
for the National Science Foundation, $9.3 million; for the Atomic 
Energy Commission, $2.2 million; and for Health, Education, and 
Welfare, $664,000. 

That makes a total of $55,754,000. 

Mr. Karth. Then if the budget recommendations are less than 
your minimum requests, I suppose I could conclude that the budget 
requests will not satisfy the most critical needs of our departments, is 
that correct ? 

Dr. Wakelin. This is correct as a general statement, but I think 
that the problem actually arises in the construction of ships and fa- 
cilities, rather than in research and surveys and data processing. 

If I may expand on that just for a minute 

Mr. Karth. What about the amounts? Of course, if you don't 
have the ships, you can't do the proper kind of research. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, this is correct. 

Mr. Karth. Irrespective of how much money you have in that par- 
ticular category. 

Dr. Wakelin. Right. 

The problem we are going to have over the next 10 years is going 
to become very critical in the 1962 to 1964 era because during that 
period we are not only required to replace overage ships that are in- 
cluded in the number of 52 that I talked to, but in order to augment 
our potential we will have to build additional new ships. 


The funding of these is a major item in increasing our capability by 
1970 to more or less double our present total oceanographic effort. 

Mr. Karth. The $17 million ; Mr. Secretary, I think the chairman 
would probably like to give the opportunity to other members of 
asking questions. May we just put some of this in the record? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Karth. The $17 million, as I understood you, was spent in the 
research end of this overall program. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, that is correct. 

Mr. Karth. Was that sufficient ? 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, that is entirely sufficient, yes. 

If one plots the expense 

Mr. Karth. On a long-range basis, if the needs for your ships are 
not satisfied, then you could not carry on this program to meet your 
critical needs, is that correct ? 

Dr. Wakelin. In terms of new construction, yes. We would have 
to consider running the older ships for a longer period, or trying to 
find semisuitable conversions in the Navy reserve fleet to use. 

Mr. Karth. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. 

Dr. Wakelin. Right. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary. 

If you would, I want to ask you to place into the record something 
additional about the need for more basic research. You refer to that 
as being needed in the program. You refer to several other things 
in your statement as needed, but basic research and scientific training 
are two. 

If you could amplify that at your leisure, we would like to have 
that amplification in the record. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

(The information requested is as follows:) 

The Need for Moke Basic Research in Oceanography 

In discussing the need for basic research in oceanography, one must carefully 
consider the definition of the term. Basic research seeks an understanding of 
things without concern for the practical application of the results for defense or 
economic exploitation. But history provides many illustrative examples of un- 
expected applications arising from research of the purest, most nonapplied char- 
acter. That it is in the best interests of our Nation to increase our knowledge 
and to deepen our understanding of the world in which we live is sufficiently 
self-evident so as to require little more justification. 

The National Academy of Sciences' Committee on Oceanography has identified 
many of the broad significant problems that are unique to the sea whose solution 
will require a major effort in the marine sciences. Generally, basic research in 
oceanography can be considered in five broad categories : 

(1) History of the oceans: A study of the evolution of our planet is a most 
powerful means for studying the history of the universe. AVe can reconstruct 
the Earth's history and the fluctuations of the land-water-climate relationship 
through studies of the composition of the Earth's crust and the distribution of 
the sediments over the ocean basins and by studies of the intensities and varia- 
tions of the magnetic and gravity fields. New tools and techniques can reveal 
much that has until now remained shrouded in mystery and speculation. 

(2) Life in the sea: It is likely that animal life as we know it originated in 
the sea. Our present knowledge of its great diversity and richness, though ex- 
tensive, is still very fragmentary. The many areas of basic research interest 
which may help fill the gaps in our knowledge of marine life include the struc- 
ture of marine communities, the interdependence between species and their fluc- 
tuations in abundance, the role of microorganisms, the significance of migration 
of organisms in transporting materials, including radioisotopes from deep water 


up to shallow water, bioluminescence, and the production of underwater sound 
and its use in recognition, communication, and animal migration. 

(3) Motions of waters: The restless seas and how the ocean waters move have 
excited the imagination since the dawn of history. We have learned much about 
the great patterns of surface circulation and movement, but little is known about 
the enormous streams which flow along the bottom and at intermediate depths 
in the oceans. Upwelling, convergence and divergence, turbidity streams, the 
movements of identifiable water masses or cells within the larger body, are re- 
lated phenomena whose study new techniques have now made possible. 

(4) Ocean surface-atmosphere relationship: It is well recognized that the 
winds driving across the sea set the surface water in motion, create waves, ab- 
sorb heat, take up moisture that later falls as rain, and in general modulate the 
climates of continents. The fertile fields of basic research which may help us 
to understand how these things happen include studies of the heat and water 
budget, of carbon dioxide interaction between water and air, of the transpor- 
tation of salt and nutrients, of the birth of storms. Practically we hope that 
these may lead to more accurate long-range weather and sea condition predic- 
tions and possibly to weather modification and control. 

(5) Coastal waters, estuaries, and rivers: These places, though far removed 
from the deep open oceans, are in continuity with them. A few of the problems 
the marine scientists are investigating include the interaction and consequences 
of the meeting of land and water, the geological and biological processes of the 
near-shore area, the mechanisms of sediment erosion, transportation, and deposi- 
tion on the shelf and in the surf zone and the causes of destruction and buildup 
of the shoreline. There are many practical implications of research in inshore 
waters where most fish are caught and most pollutants are dispersed. 

The Chairman. We could ask many, many questions more from 
you, sir, but we have one more witness this morning and we want to 
be sure to reach that one witness. 

I think you have made an excellent statement and it certainly is 
what the committee wanted, and I think you can use some help as time 
goes on in the basic program, scientific and educational program, and 
things of that sort where the committee can really help you. 

So we are glad to have your statement. 

I didn't place in the record the biography of the Secretary here, but 
I would like to do it in the record, Mr. Reporter, so everybody will 
know the backgroimd that this distinguished witness of ours has 
with reference to education. 

(The biography referred to is on p. 41.) 

Mr. Van Pelt. 

Mr. Van Pelt. Mr. Secretary, do any of our national academies — 
have they set up a program covering the subject which you were dis- 
cussing this morning? I am thinking of Annapolis or the Merchant 
Marine Academy. 

I )r. Wakelin. You mean for training of personnel ? 

Air. Van Pelt. For training, yes. 

Dr. Wakelin. Apart from — well, I don't believe so, for this reason : 

That oceanography is a composite of a number of basic disciplines, 
such as physics and chemistry and biology and geology. The training 
that has gone on in the Government-supported institutions at the 
undergraduate level is predominantly in the basic sciences as primary 

There are training programs at the University of California, at 
Scripps, which take not only high school and college students on a 
summer basis, but also go on to give the master's degree in ocea- 
nography. They all combine a whole group of studies in the basic 
sciences under the one subject cover of oceanography. 


I am not aware of an oceanographic — any oceanographic part of 
the curriculum at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School, for example, 
which I think would be the first place in the Navy where we would 
address ourselves to oceanography because then the undergraduates of 
the Academy would have had the proper training in the basic sciences, 
so they could broaden themselves into oceanography. 

Mr. Van Pelt. That is all. 

Dr. Wakelin. I can supply anything we pick up for the record on 
this if you would like it, sir. 

Mr. Van Pelt. Well, it might be interesting because we have a bill 
pending before the committee for the establishment of a national 
academy or scientific academy. 

Someone might want to refer to that. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes. 

Mr. Van Pelt. That is all, Mr. Secretary. 

The Chairman. That will be very helpful. 

(The information requested is as follows :) 

The U.S. Naval Academy offers two elective courses for academically qualified 
midshipmen : 

Oceanography : 14 midshipmen enrolled. 
Underwater acoustics : Eight midshipmen enrolled. 
Postgraduate training is sponsored by the Navy as follows : 

Oceanography at University of Washington (2-year course) : one officer 
per year now, to be increased to five officers per year in September 1960. 

Hydrography (geodesy) at the Ohio State University (2-year course) : 
three officers per year. 

Meteorology at U.S. Naval Postgraduate School offers basic course in 
oceanography related to meteorology : 35 officers per year. 

The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, also we don't have time to ask you 
directly this morning, but these questions compiled by the staff are 
very important questions. If we could give you a list of these ques- 
tions, there are eight of them, and if you could place the answers in 
the record it would help. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Round out the entire record. I think it will be 
very useful. 

I will give Dr. Sheldon the questions and he will give them to you 
in due course. 

Dr. Wakelin. Yes, sir. 

(The questions and answers are as follows :) 

1. Q. In what way will oceanographic research contribute to an improved 
antisubmarine defense for the United States? 

A. The present antisubmarine defense for the United States is based almost 
entirely upon the use of underwater acoustics. This applies to open ocean 
surveillance, submarine detection, localization and classification as well as to 
the operational use of ASW weapons systems. Oceanographic research will 
contribute an improved antisubmarine defense by providing us with an under- 
standing of. or a working knowledge of the following phenomena of the sea: 

(a) Effect of wind on the water surface in producing ambient noise: 

(b) Effect of sea state and swells in producing sound scattering, reverber- 
ation, and ambient noise: 

(c) Effect of the thermocline, salinity, biological organisms, and internal 
waves on sound propagation and volume reverberation for sonar systems: 

(d) Effect of deep velocity profiles on propagation of long-range sonar 
signals ; 

(e) Effect of the slope, roughness, and reflectivity of the sea floor on 
bottom reflection characteristics ; 


(/) Means to predict the thickness and temperature gradient of upper 
water layers to determine the propagation for surface sonar systems ; and 
((/) Effect of ice thickness, roughness, and composition on acoustic scat- 
tering and reverberation. 
In addition, oceanographic research is required to explain many of the 
phenomena associated with nonacoustic methods of submarine detection now 
under study. It is anticipated that it will serve as the basis for understanding 
or for evaluating detection methods yet to be devised. 

2. Q. (a) Does the Navy have an operational requirement for oceanographic 
research ? 

(&) Is it regarded as part of the ASW program and what priority does it 

(c) Could you trace the Navy's program in oceanography over the past 5 
to 10 years? 

(d) Do you believe that the Navy has catered adequately to military needs 
of oceanography in the past? That is, are there any military needs for scien- 
tific information of the sea that are going unanswered because of inadequate 
programs in the past? 

A. (a) The Navy's program for basic research in oceanography is contained in 
the TENOC program (for 10 years in oceanography). This document describes 
the research supported by the Navy in nongovernmental laboratories and insti- 
tutions. In addition, the Chief of Naval Operations has provided the technical 
bureaus with operational requirements for military systems in which oceano- 
graphic research is necessary. 

(b) The oceanography program is included in the Navy ASW program and 
enjoys the same high priority. 

(c) Since World War II the Navy has been the principal supporter of oceanog- 
raphy in the United States. Recognizing in early 1956 that the needs for 
knowledge of the oceans were increasing more rapidly than were the capabili- 
ties of the science, the Navy, with the Atomic Energy Commission and the 
Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, was instrumental in the establishment of the 
Committee on Oceanography under the aegis of the National Academy of 
Sciences — National Research Council. 

In 1958 the Office of Naval Research prepared a long-range plan (TENOC) for 
the orderly expansion of oceanographic research to meet the extrapolated needs 
of the Navy. The Chief of Naval Operations approved the plan on January 1, 
1959. In February 1959 the summary of recommendations for oceanography 
1960-70 of the National Academy's Committee on Oceanography was promulgated. 

The Navy is expanding the TENOC program to include aspects of military 
research and surveys, shipbuilding, and facility construction. National program 
coordination is now accomplished through the Interagency Committee on Ocea- 
nography established by the Federal Council for Science and Technology in 

In terms of financial support, the Navy's funding for basic and applied 
oceanographic research has increased over the past 5 years as follows : 

Fiscal year 1957 $6,076,000 

Fiscal year 1958 5, 646, 000 

Fiscal year 1959 9, 391, 000 

Fiscal year 1960 13, 8S6, 000 

Fiscal year 1961 17, 724, 000 

These do not include funds expended for applied military research in sup- 
port of weapons and weapon systems development. 

(d) The most critical military needs of oceanography have been given every 
consideration by the Navy. However, as in many disciplines of science, we rec- 
ognize that a more extensive basic research program over the past decades would 
have provided us with a better understanding of the complex oceanic environ- 
ment. Obviously, better understanding leads directly to better utilization. The 
Navy's TP]NOC program formalized for the first time the Navy's needs in basic 
research in oceanography. It is under constant review and is being expanded 
to include all aspects of the Navy's oceanographic requirements including basic 
and applied research, military surveys, oceanwide surveys, shipbuilding and 
shore facility construction. 

3. Q. (a) Do you subscribe to the contention of the Committee on Oceanogra- 
phy that the program should be accelerated from its present pace? 


(ft) The committee report recommends construction of a large number of 
oeeanographic research ships and special underwater vehicles. What are the- 
Navy's immediate plans in this regard V That is, what is budgeted for 1961 for 
ships or new vehicles and facilities? 

A. (a) Yes, as we learn more about the characteristics of the oceans we find 
that there are even more characteristics about which we know very little. We 
should at least double our Nation's capacity to conduct research in oceanography 
by substantially accelerating our efforts in an orderly program during the next 
10 years. 

(ft) In the fiscal year 1960 budget the Navy made provisions for the construc- 
tion of its first ship specifically designed for oeeanographic research. A second 
ship of this type will be constructed in fiscal year 1961. 

The Reynolds Metals Co. is designing and constructing the Aluminaut, a 
manned deep research vehicle. It is designed to operate to a depth of 15,000 feet 
with safety and convenience and with sufficient range, mobility, and endurance to 
satisfy even the most demanding requirements for an oeeanographic research 
vehicle. The Navy will initially assist in designing and providing for this craft 
its scientific instrumentation. The Office of Naval Research is considering a 
proposal to lease the vehicle through the Woods Hole Oeeanographic Institution. 
Another program for a manned maneuverable undersea research vehicle is funded 
in fiscal year 1961. This craft will be used to investigate problems in oceanog- 
raphy concerning deep undersea military applications and to assist in the de- 
sign and feasibility tests of hull, control, propulsion and other components 
directly applicable to undersea vehicles for research, submarines or for weapon 

There is no request for funds in the military construction appropriation for 
oeeanographic facilities in fiscal year 1961. 

4. Q. Does the Navy have an oeeanographic research laboratory of its own? 
Do you believe that such a laboratory should be established to enhance inhouse 

A. The Navy does not have an oeeanographic research laboratory, per se. of 
its own. It is not believed that such a laboratory would enhance the Navy's 
inhouse capabilities. Approximately three-fourths of the Navy's basic research 
program is conducted by contract with universities and nonprofit institutions. 
The remainder is conducted in Navy-operated laboratories, such as the Navy 
Electronics Laboratory and the U.S. Navy Underwater Sound Laboratory. 

5. Q. What is the Navy's budget for oeeanographic research for 1961, divided 
between basic and applied? How do the funds for basic research compare with 
those of last year? What percentage of funds made available for oeeanographic 
research have been left to the discretion of the research investigator? 

A. The Navy's budget for oeeanographic research for 1961 can be divided into 
several categories. The research, development, test, and evaluation portion 
amounts to $17,724,000. The applied military oeeanographic research necessary 
to support instrumentation development and weapon systems will require 
$9,940,000. Programs in closely related areas of study such as the Arctic, 
bydrobiology, and coastal geography programs amount to $2,005,000, and overlap 
the field of oceanography to some extent. The total sum of these categories is 
$29,669,000. This does not include the cost of construction of research ships. 

Of the total $29,669,000 to be spent for oeeanographic research by the Navy 
in fiscal year 1961, $9,379,000 or about 30 percent will be used for basic research. 
This is an increase of about 20 percent over the funds expended for basic 
research during fiscal year 1960. The remainder will be used for the various 
applied research programs. 

All of the basic research funding (30 percent of the Navy's total oceanograhpic 
research budget) is left to the discretion of the research investigator. The only 
limitation placed on these funds is that the investigator must specify his re- 
search program before the contract is written. Even in this case, he need only 
consult with the Navy scientific officer and acquire concurrence if he discovers 
promising new areas of research that lie wishes to pursue during the course 
of his invest [gations. 

(5. Q. Do you feel that Oceanography offers the same potential in scientific 
achievement as an element in international affairs as has outer space? If so. 
how do you believe this program can best gain emphasis? What do you think 
the Congress should do to underscore the importance of oceanography in terms 
of our scientific capabilities and in terms of its relationship to international 


A. The oceans represent the last frontier on Earth of a truly international 
•character. They are indeed analogous to outer space, and hence our endeavors 
in this area should command the same importance in international relations 
as our efforts in outer space. Perhaps for the immediate future, with man- 
kind's needs for foods and minerals from the oceans, commerce on the seas 
and the military requirements of the free world, the oceans may be of greater 
importance internationally than outer space. The United States is now one 
•of the leaders in oceanic research and in developing international cooperation 
in the study of the sea, but this leadership is being challenged by the Soviet 
Union. In order to maintain our international leadership, we must have a well- 
coordinated national program and by cooperation with other nations take the 
fullest advantage of the potentials of the sea. 

The Congress can assist in emphasizing the importance of oceanography in 
international affairs through its continued interest in the marine sciences as 
has been evidenced in the past with its hearings and legislative actions. 

7. Q. (a) Who makes decisions within the Navy with regard to relative 
•emphasis of research programs? 

(ft) What criteria are used for evaluating their relative merits and sig- 

(c) By what procedure can a new program of increasing importance be 
accelerated, recognizing that it may be at the expense of other existing pro- 
grams? That is, at management levels, what process of review is employed 
to evaluate the payoff of research programs and thus to accelerate those showing 
greatest promise or representing greatest need or arrest those which fail to bear 

A. (a) Decisions within the Navy with regard to relative emphasis on re- 
search programs are made by the Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Research 
and Development upon advice of the Chief of Naval Research and the Deputy 
Chief of Naval Operations for Development. The Chief of Naval Research is 
responsible for the conduct and coordination of naval research and exploratory 
development in augmentation of and in conjunction with the research and de- 
velopment programs of the technical bureaus and offices of the Navy. The 
Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Development, who represents the Chief 
of Naval Operations, is responsible for the coordination and integration of 
the research, development, test, and evaluation program of the Navy to in- 
sure that the total effort is continuously responsive to long range objectives, im- 
mediate requirements, fiscal limitations, and advancing technology. The 
DCNO(D) is Chairman of the Navy Research and Development Review Board. 
Advice from two additional groups is available to the Assistant Secretary of 
the Navy for Research and Development. The first is the Navy Research 
and Development Committee composed of representatives from the Office of 
the Chief of Naval Operations and the technical bureaus and offices. The second 
is the Naval Research Advisory Committee, a group of distinguished civilians 
from industry and universities, which was established by Congress to advise 
the Secretary on the broad aspects of the Navy's research program. 

(?>) The criteria used for evaluating the relative merits and significance of 
basic research programs are: a critical assessment of their potential contribu- 
tion to increased knowledge in fields of interest to the Navy ; validity of the 
approach; results of prior related work; probable impact on Navy technology 
and operations ; and the competence of the principal investigator. 

(c) A new program of increasing importance can be accelerated by repro- 
graming (funds, manpower, and facilities), and augmented funding by emer- 
gency funds or otherwise. 

Reviews of research programs are both formal and informal. Informal re- 
views by management personnel with working level personnel are on a con- 
tinuing basis. Formal reviews are conducted as a result of periodic reports 
such as the annual technical progress report on each project, report of signifi- 
cant accomplishment, etc.. and a detailed review is made annually of the re- 
search, development, test, and evaluation program submissions for conform- 
ance to the guidance contained in operational requirements and annual pro- 
gram objectives. It must be realized that the payoff on research programs is 
not always immediate or even immediately obvious, but often forms a back- 
ground of knowledge for future effort or application. Furthermore, the realiza- 
tion of some new and important scientific or technical discovery or break- 
through often follows a large amount of seemingly unproductive effort. 

8. Q. (a) Could you describe present mechanism for interdepartment co- 


(6) Does the coordinating committee for oceanography control funds or exer- 
cise any line responsibility over oceanographic programs? 

(c) Does it plan any Government-wide programs jointly and, if so, are copies 
of such a program available? 

(d) Can you give examples of how the committee coordinates requests for 
funds and uses of facilities? 

A. (a) The Interagency Committee on Oceanography is a permanent mecha- 
nism of the Federal Council for Science and Technology with representation from 
the Department of Defense, Department of Commerce, Department of Interior, 
Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, National Science Foundation, 
and the Atomic Energy Commission. The purpose of the Interagency Commit- 
tee is to implement, coordinate, and review the national program in oceanog- 
raphy. The Committee meets periodically to review the individual agency 
programs in the context of the national effort and to consider special problems 
that may arise in implementing the national program. The Committee has been 
enjoined by the Federal Council to consider other matters it deems relevant 
and important and to include additional agency representatives where this may 
be required or helpful. 

It will engage in coordinated budget planning for fiscal year 1962. Of primary 
concern to the Committee is the development of a program which provides for 
reasonable increase in our national capability when faced with the critical limi- 
tations on scientific manpower, funds, and leadtime for the construction of 
ships and shore facilities. 

(ft) The Interagency Committee does not directly control fmads nor exercise 
direct line responsibility over individual oceanographic projects. Each mem- 
ber of the Interagency Committee holds a position of policy and budget re- 
sponsibility within his parent agency. The agency representatives were se- 
lected at this level to permit them to be able to commit their agencies in the 
coordination of the national program. 

(c) The Interagency Committee has not to date planned a Government-wide 
project or program. However, the Committee has established two working 
panels for specific purposes. The function of one panel is to plan and coordinate 
our ocean survey program. A second panel has the responsibility for working 
out details for planning and the policies for joint operation of a national data 
center. Additional panels are being considered — one for training and educa- 
tion, one for basic research, and possibly one for special devices and instru- 

(d) The development of the fiscal year 1961 budget required that the Inter- 
agency Committee review the individual programs and needs for funds of the 
principal Government agencies concerned with oceanography. The total fund- 
ing requirements were presented to and endorsed by the Federal Council for 
Science and Technology concurrently with their submission in the President's 
budget. In the short time it has been established, the Committee has not had 
to consider coordination among the agencies of the use of facilities. In the 
development of the budget for fiscal year 1962, each agency's program and the 
national program as a whole will be reviewed critically by the Committee for 
balance and technical validity. The Committee expects to seek endorsement of 
this consolidated program and budget from the Federal Council for Science and 
Technology and approval from the President before presenting it to Congress in 
the form of a package containing the complete national program in oceanography. 

The Chairman. We want to thank you very much. Do you have 
something further to add \ 

Dr. Wakelin. I have something to add in reply to your question, 
sir, and it is qualitatively as I have given it to you, bu( (his informa- 
1 ion may be of interest. 

In terms of the Navy there are two officers at the University of 
Washington working for master's degrees, two at the University of 
Washington, in Seattle for doctor's degrees. There are 76 at the U.S. 
Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey working in the held of aerol- 
ogy and getting some training in oceanography, but this is not a pri- 
mary fund ion of t hnl particular part of the curriculum. 

Mr. Van Pelt. Thank you. 


The Chairman. We want to thank you for being here this morning, 
Mr Secretary, and appreciate your fine testimony. 

Dr. Wakelin. Thank you, sir. I was happy to be here for the 
commencement exercises also. 

The Chairman. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. If there are no further questions then I want to 
make the announcement here which our technical director has given 

At 2 o'clock today in this room there will be a private filming for 
our members and the staff by the National Academy of Sciences, two 
of 20 minutes each — there will be two films. One is on ocean sciences, 
and the other on satellites. 

Dr. Hugh Odishaw will provide the commentary on both of them. 
All of the members that can — I know we are pretty hard at work 
and everybody has his problems this time of the year — but whoever 
can attend, we would appreciate their coming. 

Let's see now, we have another distinguished witness this morning, 
Dr. James E. Lipp, director of development planning of the Lock- 
heed Aircraft Corp., Burbank, Calif. 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Chairman, before Dr. Lipp starts, I think it would 
be fine if we placed the biographical record of Secretary Wakelin in 
the record. I suggest that of Dr. Lipp also, who is before us, and 
that the biography of Dr. Harrison Brown, who testified yesterday, 
that they all be made a part of the record. 

The Chairman. I think that is an excellent suggestion. If there 
is no objection then, we will place those in the record also. 

(The biographical sketches for previous witnesses referred to have 
been inserted at the beginning of the testimony of each witness. The 
biography of Dr. Lipp is as follows :) 

Biography of Dr. James E. Lipp, Corporate Director of Development 
Planning, Lockheed Aircraft Corp. 

Born : July 3, 1910, Washington, D.C. 
Education : 

California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, 1928-32, B.S. in aeronautical 

California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, Graduate School, 1932-35 : 

M.S. in mechnical engineering, 1934 ; Ph. D. in aeronautics, 1935. 
Boeing School of Aeronautics, Oakland, 1933. 
Professional record : 

Kinner Airplane & Motor Co., about 1931. 

Douglas Aircraft Co., Santa Monica. July 1935 through October 1948. 

The RAND Corp., Santa Monica, November 1948 to July 1955; chief of 

missiles division. 
Weapon Systems Evaluation Group, Office, Secretary of Defense, 1949-50 ; 

on loan. 
Lockheed Aircraft Corp., Burbank, August 1955 to present ; now corporate 

director of development planning. 
Advisory activities : 

Member, Technical Advisory Panel for Aeronautics, Department of Defense. 

Was chairman of ad hoc group to study STOL and VTOL aircraft. 
Member, Panel on New Devices for Undersea Exploration, National Acad- 
emy of Sciences. 
Member, Technical Advisory Group, Space Weapons Panel, Air Proving 

Ground Center, ARDC, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., September 1957-59. 
Consultant, Air Force Scientific Advisory Board, Aircraft Panel, July 1956 

to June 1957. 


In 1957 represented the Department of Defense on mission to Paris and 

Madrid, concerning MffDP program for Spain. 
Chairman, NSIA Panel on Navigation and Oceanography. 
Professional memberships : 

Tau Beta Pi (honorary engineering fraternity). 

Sigma Xi (scientific society) . 

Institute of Aeronautical Sciences (associate fellow). 

American Rocket Society. 

Association of the U.S. Army. 

Atomic Industrial Forum. 

American Management Association. 

Air Force Association. 

Navy League of the United States, Civilian Wing. 

International Oceanographic Foundation. 

The Chairman. Dr. Lipp, not to cut you off, we will ask you to 
proceed with your statement. 


Dr. Lipp. My name is James E. Lipp, director of development 
planning of the Lockheed Aircraft Corp. I am a member of the 
National Academy of Sciences Panel on New Devices for Exploring 
the Oceans, and chairman of the National Security Industrial Asso- 
ciation's Task Group on Undersea Navigation and Oceanography. 


An opportunity to appear before this committee is a distinct honor 
and privilege which I sincerely appreciate. If this short presenta- 
tion, or my answers to your questions do not appear adequate, I shall 
be glad to collect and send to you any supplementary information 
which you request. 

The Chairman. May I interrupt you and ask you a question at that 
point ? 

On page 10 of the statement made by the preceding witness he re- 
ferred to the fact that a certain panel has the responsibility for work- 
ing out details for establishing the policies for operation of the Na- 
tional Data Center. We are considering additional panels, he says, 
and one possibly for special devices and instrumentation. Is that 
what you had in mind ? 

Dr. Lipp. No, sir. This panel has been in existence for over a year, 
and it wrote chapter 7 of the committee report which you have prob- 
ably seen. 

Although man and his ancestors have lived in, on, and around the 
world oceans since primeval times, there seems to be something spe- 
cial about the second half of the 20th century in man's technical prog- 
ress relative to the sea. Scientifically inclined nations recently have 
been making an organized, all-around exploration of the. human en- 
vironment; witness, for example, the major Antarctic operations and 
the rush into outer space. More specifically, there is a growing reali- 
zation that the oceans are coining within our grasp for major tech- 
nical exploitation, and that the benefits to be obtained from them 
can fee enormous. 


The purpose of this talk is primarily informative to give your com- 
mittee a view of some engineering efforts to take practical advantage 
of the sea today or within the next few decades. 

I should like to subdivide the field of ocean development into half 
a dozen parts and handle each very briefly. These are ; naval weap- 
ons, underwater transportation and communication, fresh water con- 
version, mining or chemical extraction of minerals, food production, 
and finally research activities. 


I am sure that you are all aware of the revolution that is now tak- 
ing place in undersea warfare. Nuclear propelled submarines and the 
Polaris missile system are but two outstanding examples. Parallel 
advances are being made in methods of detecting and destroying enemy 
submarines, in underwater communications and navigation. The sig- 
nificance of these developments is that the U.S. Navy is moving toward 
operation in the full depth of the ocean, freeing itself from the 
shallow zone of a few hundred feet to which it has been constrained 
in the past. Development work directed and sponsored by the Navy 
is of such scope and importance that I could not presume to describe 
it all here today. Of course, most of the Navy budget, running into 
billions of dollars, is devoted to operating in and on the oceans. 


However, there will surely be many peacetime commercial and in- 
dustrial activities which will gain impetus from the Navy program. 
As one example, advances in structural materials, submarine hull 
design and powerplants are steadily bringing us closer to an economi- 
cal cargo submarine. The chief advantage of this type of craft 
lies in relative immunity to heavy weather or destruction by enemy 
submarines. Also, the drag of a submerged hull tends to be lower 
than for a surface vessel, so that ultimately a lower operating cost 
should be attainable. I can visualize a tractor-trailer combination in 
which the powered tractor can be kept in continuous use, like a loco- 
motive, while the trailer hulls are tied up for loading. This develop- 
ment, in turn, will give rise to new kinds of shore facilities for effi- 
cient loading and unloading. Although various studies of cargo sub- 
marines have been made, I am not aware of any development projects. 
The present studies do not justify this type of craft economically for 
general cargo handling; however, I think it is only a matter of time 
until vessels for special applications are developed. 

Another form of undersea transport is the pipeline. A study is 
being made in Europe of a gas pipeline from North Africa to south- 
eastern Spain. That project undoubtedly is the forerunner of a net- 
work of pipelines across narrow seas and straits all over the world. 
As one example, the Suez Canal will cease to be a critical bottleneck 
to the free world if this technique is developed. 

We must not overlook the pipeline for human traffic — that is, the 
tunnel. About a month ago, a formal proposal was made to the Gov- 
ernments of Great Britain and France for construction of a tunnel 
beneath the English Channel from a point near Dover to Calais, an 


underwater distance of about 20 miles. This is actually a renewal of 
an attempt to build such a tunnel about 85 years ago. Generally, the 
pressure of increasing traffic and the financial success of toll road oper- 
ations should help revive the demand for underwater tunnels in places 
where bridges are not practical. 

Underwater communications probably will be used on a modest scale 
and in special situations since radio has overtaken the underwater 
cable for general transoceanic use. For example, undersea cables may 
be useful in and across the Arctic where magnetic disturbances seri- 
ously affect most other f orms of communication. The nuclear-powered 
submarine now gives us the technical capability to lay a cable beneath 
the Arctic ice if this becomes desirable. Some day in more peaceful 
times, we may see a substantial network of direct undersea communica- 
tion between the United States and liussia across the polar region. 


Conversion of sea water into fresh water is one of the outstanding 
areas of technical development today. Several methods are physically 
practical so that the chief problem is to .reduce operating costs to a 
competitive level with natural sources of fresh water. At present the 
Department of Interior's Office of Saline Water is sponsoring five 
pilot plants, each working on a different principle and all located in 
different parts of the United States. 

One such plant will be located in southern California, will consist 
of a nuclear reactor as a source of heat, and will distill fresh water 
from sea water at a rate between 1 and 2 million gallons per day. 
Others will use freezing or electrical methods of removing impurities. 

Implications of this line of development are tremendous, since new 
areas of the world may be opened up for settlement and improvement. 
Nuclear power will give impetus to the whole movement, not only in 
yielding process heat, but also as a source of power in pumping water 
uphill from sea level to the consumer. 


Thus far, undersea mining has been accomplished most extensively 
by the oil industry. The technical skill and daring which has been 
displayed by that industry is one of the engineering feats of our time. 
Oil is a logical subject for undersea exploitation because it is easier 
to locate and handle than solid minerals. 

The latter, mining of solid materials from the ocean floor is begin- 
ning to resemble offshore oil drilling. The Grand Isle Sulphur Mine 
in the Gulf of Mexico will soon operate from a very large and elabo- 
rately equipped steel tower structure. Among other noteworthy fea- 
tures, the plant will use hot seawater in the process of melting and 
handling the sulfur. Also, the hot sulfur- bearing liquid is transported 
7 miles to shore through a heated pipeline. 

Development of other undersea mining is still largely exploratory. 
Perhaps the next step will be to recover manganese and cobalt from 
the so-called manganese nodules which have been discovered in 
large numbers on the ocean floor. 

We now turn to a different type of mineral exploitation ; namely, the 
extraction of minerals directly from sea water. 


For the past decade, the outstanding examples of mineral extraction 
have been magnesium and bromine, both of which are largely obtained 
from sea water. These processes were developed during World War 
II, but have since proven their economic worth. An interesting side- 
light of the magnesium process is that it employs lime made from 

Further development in this area depends considerably upon the 
availability of cheap process heat and power. Fortunately, we are 
approaching the day when chemical mineral extraction can be made 
a byproduct or accessory of the fresh water conversion process using 
the atomic reactor as an energy source. 


Food production in the oceans is another vast resource which lies 
awaiting our call. At present the United States has an agricultural 
surplus and a considerable amount of marginal untilled land so that 
talk of a greater food supply may seem academic. But the population 
trend, both in the United States and worldwide, is strongly upward; 
and our present excess of food surely will be overtaken within a few 
decades. Present efforts at fishing, seaweed reduction and the like will 
pale by comparison with the future effort. I can visualize the sys- 
tematic husbandry of fish, whales, and other sea animals on a scale far 
to exceed our present cattle industry, including scientific breeding 
feeding, pest control and all the rest. 

Likewise, vegetation in the sea will be developed and formed on a 
large scale for human consumption. Note that these activities like 
mineral extraction, will be performed anywhere in the world, wherever 
the need exists, and the distinction between fertile versus sterile agri- 
cultural areas will tend to be reduced. 

Note also that ocean farming will avoid the need for elaborate irri- 
gation projects or short-term dependence on the weather. Prototypes 
of future ocean farming equipment are to be found today in kelp 
harvesters and floating factories for extracting whale oil. 


My last area for attention is undersea research. You have already 
heard a description of the overall research needs from Professor 
Brown, so I shall confine this discussion to engineering aspects. Much 
of the acceleration of oceanographic activity has depended upon, or 
been accompanied by, new devices for exploring the oceans. To 
mention a few : the scuba, or "Aqualung" has enabled thousands of 
people to rediscover the other world that lies at our doorstep and sci- 
entists to see and feel the underwater habitat ; the bathyscaph has 
carried man repeatedly to the greatest depths in prosaically reliable 
fashion; buoys of all kinds and remotely operated instruments have 
facilitated the measurement of ocean characteristics. What steps will 
or should come next? 

There must be a mid-depth type of vehicle or mesoscaph, to operate 
at depths of 15,000 to 18,000 feet, to have good maneuverability and 
;a substantial scientific payload. Special accessories such as remote 
handling and grasping devices will be needed. In my view, about a 
dozen such craft are desirable, since roughly half the geographic 


area of the world will fall within their capabilities. These are tech- 
nically feasible now. 

Bathyscaphs should be improved as to payload and maneuver- 
ability to explore the very deep parts of the ocean. Three or four of 
these are desirable within the next several years. A moderate amount 
of practical research and new design will be required for the best 

A number of fixed habitable underwater laboratories should be 
emplaced in different parts of the world, and at different depths, to 
enable scientists to conduct underwater experiments in deep water. I 
am not familiar with all of the technical problems involved, but some 
undoubtedly will prove difficult. 

Substantially increased shore facilities are essential, especially for 
systematic, rapid data handling, reduction, and publication. Here 
a single large facility may be better than several small units. 

The more conventional devices such as surface research ships, in- 
strumented buoys, survey and utility aircraft and various instruments 
must be multiplied and made easily available to the research commu- 
nity. And perhaps most important of all, funds will be needed to 
support the continued operation of these devices after they are once 

In my opinion, the estimate of the Committee on Oceanography — 
and here I am speaking purely as an individual — that the research 
effort can double in 10 years and reach a level about one-tenth of our 
present space effort, is very conservative. 

That estimate is based on the rate of training of new oceanogra- 
phers, yet I am reminded of the space program which in a few short 
years has exploded from essentially no effort into a major profession. 

This has been done by drawing on industry for scientists and engi- 
neers, and can be done again in developing the oceans. It is only 
necessary to provide the same kind of funding and priorities that 
have been given to the space program. 

A discussion on engineering and research devices would not be 
complete without mention of the Mohole. This is a project, under 
the National Academy of Sciences and National Research Council, to 
drill all the way through the Earth's crust, for geological and geo- 
physical study. The attempt will take place in the ocean since the 
crust is thinner there than on land. 

There is roughly 15,000 feet of rock to drill through underneath 
roughly 15,000 feet of water. Extensions of present deepwater drill- 
ing techniques appear promising, and we expect to see the initial test 
drilling started within the next several years. 

In addition to some great advances in scientific knowledge, the 
project will result in substantial improvements in oil drilling tech- 

My motives in favoring such research devices are twofold. First, I 
agree witli the need for an accelerated basic research program as a 
foundation for future progress in the sea. In addition, however, the 
engineer, as well as the scientist, must become familiar with the new 
environment and thereby learn how to exploit it and behave in it. lie 
must encounter turbidity flows, stress corrosion, thermal layers, 
and a hundred other problems in the full scale environment before 
he can design a workmanlike production machine or process. 


The total scientific and technical competence of the United States 
can be described in billions of volts, billions of light years, and cer- 
tainly in billions of dollars. It seems inevitable that we shall focus 
an increasing fraction of these talents on a third of a billion cubic 
miles of salt water. 

I have collected several reports and magazine articles which I shall 
leave with Dr. Sheldon after the meeting. The subjects covered in 
them are : the tunnel beneath the English Channel, the sulfur mine in 
the Gulf of Mexico, magnesium and bromine extraction, and the 

Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Doctor, you have a very illuminating and imagina- 
tive statement which we appreciate very much. 

You referred lastly to sulfur mining in the Gulf of Mexico, but 
that is not entirely new, is it ? There are sulfur domes in the Gulf 
of Mexico which have been known for 40 years, and they have done 
marginal development ; isn't that right ? 

Dr. Lirp. It is my understanding the previous work was done in 
what you would call swampy areas near the shore. This facility 

The Chairman. Close to land ? 

Dr. Lipp. Yes, sir. The facility to which I refer is located well 
out to sea, is a $30 million installation and is really going to be an 
elaborate sea-based operation. 

The Chairman. That is a city they are building out in the sea ? 

Dr. Lipp. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. It is four or five blocks long there, with stores, 
housing, and everything in it. Is that what you mean ? 

Dr. Lipp. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, that is true. 

You refer to the fact that this drilling into the bottom of the sea 
Avill give us means of improved recovery of oil. 

Actually it will undoubtedly open up new oilfields, too, in the 
marginal sea, perhaps out in the depths of the sea. Is that right? 

Dr. Lipp. Yes, sir. The oil companies are helping sponsor the 
Mohole program by furnishing or lending ships and equipment and 
advice to it, simply on a basis that it will improve their own techniques 
for developing new oilfields. 

The Chairman. That is a private enterprise, isn't it ? 

Dr. Lipp. I think it will end up by being a mixture of private enter- 
prise, foundation money, and perhaps even some Government money. 

The Chairman. At the present time though it is largely a private 
investment — a private enterprise proposition, isn't it ? 

Dr. Lipp. That is correct, I believe. 

The Chairman. With reference to the chemical plants, you referred 
to the use of sea water and shells from the ocean and the beaches. 
That is already in existence there ? 

Dr. Lipp. That is true. The Dow Chemical plant has been in 
existence down on the gulf since World War II. 

The Chairman. They use the seashells there for chemical pur- 
poses. They use the water too from the gulf for the extraction of 

That would fit into your program of distillation of water from the 


Dr. Lipp. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That would make it much more economical for us: 
in the West where they need water so badly, they can make it more 
economical to produce it. That is correct, isn't it ? 

Dr. Lipp. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Miller. 

Mr. Miller. Dr. Lipp is knowledgeable on more practical fields, 
but I think we better let some of that go for the time being because 
it involves some things we don't want to go into. I want to compli- 
ment the Doctor for a very fine statement. 

The Chairman. I would have thought the gentleman would have 
alluded to his education there in California. 

Mr. Miller. I didn't do that because we have so many distinguished 
Californians before this committee we just take it for granted. 

The Chairman. Mr. Van Pelt. 

Mr. Van Pelt. No questions. 

The Chairman. I think you have given us a very fine statement, 
sir. It is the type of statement that we might spend days and weeks 
developing because it covers many subjects, and subjects that need 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Chairman, it seems if the committee is interested 
in the Mohole, the Subcommittee on Oceanography and Subcommittee 
on Fisheries, have heard it and we would be glad to furnish it. 

The Chairman. I think it is nice to have reciprocity and on behalf 
of the committee will accept the invitation, Mr. Miller. 

I think that covers the program this morning, Dr. Lipp, and we 
do appreciate your action in coming here. 

Don't you envision in this development greater possibility for the 
raising of the standards of the peoples of the world by these innumer- 
able developments you refer to ? Isn't that true ? 

Dr. Lipp. I do, indeed. 

The Chairman. Do you envision this will make more difficult the 
security of nations or less difficult ? 

Dr. Lipp. Do you mean in the sense of economic security or military 
security ? 

The Chairman. Well, you can't have one without the other. 

Dr. Lipp. Improving the economics of many countries around the 
world will tend to stabilize affairs so that there will be less tendency 
toward military action. 

On the other hand, greater knowledge about the oceans will help 
our own Navy in providing a defense for us. 

The Chairman. But the use of the ocean beds, further and further 
out, will create a greater contention. 

Dr. Lipp. There will certainly be legal problems, but we faced those 
before in fishing and so on, and have been able to solve them. 

The Chairman. It will require a greater need of international co- 
operation within these tields. 

Dr. Lipp. Yes, sir. 

The Cn.Minrw. dr. Miller. 

Mr. Miller. Do; tor, you heard the earlier discussion about the dis- 
posal of atomic waste at sea. 

Dr. Lire. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. Using the sea as a garbage pit, do you subscribe to 


Dr. Lipp. My reaction is the same as Dr. Wakelin's. We need to 
know more about this before we start getting careless with it. 

Mr. Miller. Do you think we have gone off a little bit halfcocked, 
when you take ships loaded with mustard gas out to sea and sink them 
to get rid of them, without knowing where this gas may go ? 

Dr. Lipp. I really don't know enough about mustard gas to answer 
that question. 

My impression of the atomic wastes that have been dumped so far 
is that they are allowed to cool off very greatly, so there is not much 
radioactivity that has been thrown into the ocean up to now. 

Mr. Miller. But you know there have been plans, and there are 
plans to put high-level waste into the ocean ? 

Dr. Lipp. Yes, and I would go slowly with that. 

Mr. Miller. In your own committee, or the Committee of the Na- 
tional Academy of Sciences, released in its report — its report on the 
disposal of waste on the east coast and the gulf coast was released. 
It wasn't too well received in Congress. They are making additional 
studies on the west coast before they are going to do this, a study that 
was supposed to be in 6 months ago, but hasn't been filed as yet with 

Dr. Lipp. I have not been very close to that particular panel. 

The Chairman. I will say this if the gentleman will yield : It seems 
to me more and more you are going to have to be more guarded in 
using the seas for a dumping ground. 

I wonder whether it was advisable for our people to take the silt 
out of the bed of the Mississippi River and dump it there into the 
Gulf of Mexico. 

Mr. Miller. You ought to make a bigger State out of the State of. 

The Chairman. It is a small, relative amount, but we lost that silt 
forever, perhaps, and it does affect the fishing generally in that section 
of the gulf, doesn't it ? Don't you think so ? 

Dr. Lipp. I would guess so. An oceanographer could answer that 
question much better than I, however. 

The Chairman. Doctor, we certainly thank you for coming here 
this morning and I want to remind members of the committee still 
here of the briefing at 2 o'clock if you can possibly make it. Dr. Lipp, 
I have some additional questions I want to leave with you which can 
be included in the record at this point, together with your answers. 

(The questions and answers referred to are as follows:) 

1. Q. What are the special difficulties of engineering operations under the sea 
as compared with those on the surface of the sea and how do these problems 
compare with those of, for example, establishing a manned station in space? 

A. Operations under the sea are governed primarily by the great pressures and 
by the vulnerability of humans and devices to those pressures. Supplying air 
to people underwater would be relatively simple except that the human* body is 
vulnerable to the "bends," to oxygen poisoning, and to narcosis when breathing 
air under pressure. Therefore all human operations more than a few feet below 
the surface must be protected structurally so as to approximate sea level con- 
ditions for the operators. 

These problems are similar to those of operating in outer space, where protected 
breathing is likewise the most important problem. In outer space, the operator 
is also endangered by wide temperature changes, high energy radiation, and 
small meteors — hazards which are not found in the sea. 

2. Q. The program recommended by the Committee on Oceanography visualizes 
financial support primarily from Government sources. Do you believe that oce- 
anographic research can attract private venture capital? 


A. Oceanographic research will attract private venture capital in those areas 
where a near future profit can be predicted ; for example, in offshore oil 
surveying and drilling. 

Other areas, like conversion of salt water to fresh water, will require subsidy 
for a few years until the processes or projects gradually can be made economical, 
at which time further improvements may well be sponsored by industry. 

In still other areas, like the effects of the oceans on weather, a commercial 
profit is difficult to foresee, and the entire programs will require Government 

3. Q. What kind of incentives could be established, perhaps through congres- 
sional legislation, that would encourage investment of private capital? 

A. Investment of private capital could be encouraged in several ways. 

(a) A sufficiently stable legal and tax environment for reliable planning by 

(&) Special weather forecasting, rescue, and other protective measures where 

(c) Favorable tax concessions or subsidies to encourage marginal industrial 
ventures. This requires, of course, provision for incentives to outgrow the need 
for such support. 

4. Q. Is it practical to conduct exploration and production of oil in deep 
water? Why has there been so little industrial development in this direction? 

A. Drilling of oil in deep water is now under development by the oil industry. 
Two ships have been equipped as floating oil derricks for drilling in water a few 
hundred feet deep. The chief technical problem is to hold the shop in an exact 
position in the face of wind, waves, and currents. One of the ships is being 
used for preliminary tests in the Mohole program with a view toward improving 
the techniques of deepwater drilling generally. 

5. Q. Do you visualize the need for and practicability of research laboratories 
situated at sea, either as a floating platform or as a submerged research station? 
Would these have advantages over research now being conducted on ships? Do 
you know of any plans for such stations ? 

A. As indicated in my prepared statement to the committee, submerged research 
stations will be needed so that scientists can study the natural, pressurized 
environment. Although I did not specifically mention floating laboratories, they, 
too, will be desirable for making stationary observations of relatively long 

Of the two kinds of laboratories, the underwater variety will handle research 
that no ship can hope to duplicate. Ships could serve as floating laboratories, 
and often do. However, a ship is costly to operate and is relatively crowded for 
performing careful laboratory experiments. 

Some floating laboratories are included in chapter 7 : Engineering Needs, of 
the National Academy of Science's report on "Oceanography 1960 to 1970." I 
do not know of any projects undex % way to provide laboratories at sea. 

6. Q. Would fixed undersea stations have any practical value as part of a 
system of antisubmarine defense? 

A. Fixed undersea stations could be useful in an undersea warfare role. 
Considerable study would be required to analyze their justification in compari- 
son with other kinds of antisubmarine systems. One problem would be the 
self-defense of the undersea stations against attack by the enemy submarine 

Mr. Miller. I could have made that singular, the member of the 

The Chairman. Well, there are two members. 

The committee is adjourned until Tuesday morning at 10 o ? clock. 

(Whereupon, at 11 :55 a.m., the committee was adjourned, to recon- 
vene at 10 a.m., Tuesday, May 3, 1960, on another subject.)