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University of California Berkeley 



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Regional Oral History Office University of California 

The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 



Mary Cover Jones 

HAROLD E. JONES AND MARY C. JONES, 
PARTNERS IN LONGITUDINAL STUDIES 



With Introductions by 
Ernest R. Hilgard 
R. Nevitt Sanford 



An Interview Conducted by 
Suzanne B. Riess 
in 1981-1982 



Copyright (cj 1983 by The Regents of the University of California 




MARY COVER JONES 
1975 



Photograph Courtesy G. Paul Bishop 



S.F. Chronicle 
Saturday, September 12, 1987 



Mary Cover Jones 

'-' 'A memorial service for Mary" 
Cover Jones, professor emeritus at 
the University of California who de 
voted 55 years to UC's celebrated 
Oakland Growth Study, will be held 
at 4 p.m. Wednesday in the Faculty 
Club on the Berkeley campus- 

Mrs. Jones, who died July 22 in 
Santa Barbara at the age of 90, fol 
lowed the lives of a group of Oak 
land and Berkeley residents from 
their teenage years into old age. She 
came to know not only the original 
participants but their parents, chil 
dren, grandchildren and, in a few 
cases, great-grandchildren 

>- 

" Although Mrs. Jones retired 
from the UC Berkeley faculty in 
1960, she continued her research 
until last year. t 

She also studied . the conse 
quences of early versus late^matur- 
ing in adolescence and conducted 
important research on problem 
drinking. t 

She received many honors, in 
cluding the Stanley Hall Award for 
Distinguished Research Contribu 
tions by the American Psychologi 
cal Association. 

She was a native of Johnston, 
Pa., and a graduate of Vassar Col 
lege. She received her doctorate 
from Columbia . University. She 
moved from Berkeley to Santa Bar 
bara in 1966. 

Mrs. Jones is survived by two 
daughters. Barbara Coates of Clare- 
niont and Lesley Alexander of San 
ta Barbara: a sister, Louise Hill of 
Mariposa: six grandchildren and six 
great-grandchildren. 



All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal 
agreement between the Regents of the University of California 
and Mary Cover Jones dated December 17, 1982. The manuscript 
is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary 
rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are 
reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of Califor 
nia, Berkeley. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for 
publication without the written permission of the Director 
of The Bancroft Library of the University of California at 
Berkeley . 

Requests for permission to quote for publication should 
be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office, 486 Library, 
and should include identification of the specific passages to 
be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification 
of the user. 

It is recommended that this oral history be cited 
as follows : 

Mary Cover Jones, "Harold E. Jones and Mary C. 
Jones, Partners in Longitudinal Studies," an 
oral history conducted 1981-1982 by Suzanne B. 
Riess, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft 
Library, University of California, Berkeley, 1983. 



Copy No. 



TABLE OF CONTENTS Mary Cover Jones 

INTRODUCTION by Ernest R. Hilgard 

INTRODUCTORY NOTES by Nevitt Sanford i 

INTERVIEW HISTORY iv 



1. MARY COVER JONES 

Family 

Carrie Louise Higson 

Charles Blair Cover 

The Flood 

Chautauqua 

Education for the Cover Children 

Education 

Entering Vassar 

Psychology and Economics Studies 

College Summers 

Vassar Traditions 

Socialism, Pacifism, and the War 

Deciding to go on in Psychology 

Siblings 23 

John Higson Cover 
Anna Louise Cover Hill 

2. HAROLD JONES 

Family and Education 

O Q 

Genealogy 

Interest in Nature 

Friendships , Amherst 

Mary's Influence, and the Beginnings of the Child 

Welfare Institutes 
Columbia, Meeting Mary, and Marriage 36 

Berkeley 

The Lighter Side of Harold 

Meiklejohn, the Oath and Psychologist Friends 42 

Psychoanalysis, and Other Theories 43 

Child-raising and Watson's Theories 45 

Harold's Writing, Mary's TV Class 47 



3. THE WAY WEST 49 

A Career for Mary Cover Jones 49 

Careers for Women, 1919 49 

John B. Watson 50 

The Hecksher Foundation 52 

R. S. Woodworth's Seminar 54 

In Defense of Child Psychology 55 

Mary Jones: "Peter" and Ph.D. Thesis 56 

Observing Mothers and Children 58 

Moving On 60 

Married by Norman Thomas 60 

Motivations, Inner and Outer Drives 62 

Teachers and Parents 63 

Comments on Larry Frank 64 

A Home in Berkeley 66 

4. THE LONGITUDINAL STUDIES 69 

Getting Started 69 

The Nursery School 

Cooperating with Other Departments 

Academic Appointments and Tenure 74 

Twins, Fears, Colds, Birth order 

Interviewing 

The "Lunch Study" 79 

Helping the Study Members 81 

A Talk at Holy Names 85 

Initiating the Project 86 

The Clubhouse 

The Excursions 89 

ICW Staff 91 

1937 91 

Erik Erikson 

The Dinner Group 95 

[The Material Submitted Separately by Mary Cover Jones] 

More on the Individual Staff Members 98 

Herbert Stolz 

Nancy Bay ley 

Dorothy Eichorn 100 

Jean Macfarlane 

Marjorie Honzik 

Erik Erikson 

Judith Chaffey 

Nathan Shock 103 



Elsa Frenkel-Brunswick 103 

Nevitt Sanford 103 

Paul Mussen 104 

Margaret Erwin Schevill 104 

Catherine Landreth 106 

The Study and the 60-Year Old Group 106 

AFTERWORD by Mary Cover Jones 108 

APPENDICES 109 

A. The Institute of Human Development 40th Anniversary Award 110 

B. G. Stanley Hall Award, Dsvision 7, American Psychological 
Association 111 

C. Curriculum Vitae, M.C. Jones 112 

D. Publications, M.C. Jones 121 

E. "Mary Cover Jones: Feminine as Asset," by Deana D. Logan 134 

F. "History of the Institute of Human Development: A Model" 

by Vicki Green 141 

G. "Harold Ellis Jones Memorial" by R. Nevitt Sanford, Dorothy 
Eichorn, and Marjorie P. Honzik 147 

INDEX 152 



INTRODUCTION 

Mary Cover Jones and Harold Ellis Jones were married in 1920, three 
years before he completed his Ph.D. at Columbia, and six years before she 
completed hers with two children in the meantime. The saga of their 
lives is intertwined with the rise of John B. Watson's behaviorism in the 
early years, and with the evolution of developmental psychology throughout 
their lives. 

The oral account by Mary Cover Jones becomes an important intimate 
document to reflect how a professional couple working together in the 
same field can become individually distinguished and show little evidence 
of conflict because of their mutuality of interests. They were able to 
remain caring parents despite the hours of absence of both of them from 
their home. Although this is an account by Mary, sixty years after their 
marriage, it reflects Harold's life and career as well as hers. 

Mary's reduction of the fears of the boy Peter became a classic. She 
used the conditioned response method of John B. Watson, whom they knew 
and who appears as a f lesh-and-blood person in the account. Little did 
they know then how prominent behavior therapy was to become in later 

/ 

years. 

After they moved together to the University of California at Berkeley, 
their careers were tied to the important longitudinal studies initiated 
there under Harold's leadership, and involving both of them thereafter. 
The teams of those who worked on these studies find their way into the 
account, because many were involved, and what started out as child devel 
opment became life-span development as the years rolled by. We have here 
an account of an important era, probably not to be repeated again, reflec 
ted through the careers of two of those who were central in it. 



September 30, 1982 Prepared by Ernest R. Hilgard 



ii 



INTRODUCTORY NOTES 



Several years ago I wrote "I believe that the culture and social 
structure of an academic institution can be changed, albeit by somewhat 
heroic measures, while changes in people who leave their academic positions 
are readily to be observed. Two more or less retired professors, a woman 
and a man, joined the staff of the Institute for the Study of Human Problems 
at Stanford soon after its beginning and immediately began to take a new 
lease on life. Their gaiety, eagerness to learn, and capacity to find excite 
ment in a new venture contrasted sharply with the grim, know it-all coolness 
of the striving academics who surrounded us."* 

One of these retired professors was Mary Cover Jones, the other E. M. 
Jellinick, the expert on alcoholism. I had moved from Berkeley to Stanford 
in 1961 to establish the Institute mentioned above. The main funding of the 
Institute, which in time addressed a variety of problems, was a grant from 
the National Institute of Mental Health to the Cooperative Commission for 
the Study of Alcohol Problems. This was a national commission whose base of 
operations was at Stanford. 

I think it was at the very beginning of the Institute's life that I asked 
Mary, who had just retired from her professorship at Berkeley, to join us in 
the work on alcohol problems. She seemed glad enough to do so. Her work 
centered mainly on personality in relation to alcoholism or problem drinking. 
Previous studies had shown that various personality characteristics are 
commonly found in association with problem drinking, but it had not been made 
clear which was cause and which was effect. What Mary did was interview 108 
women and men who, when they were adolescents, had been subjects of the 
Oakland Growth Study. She found, as had other workers, that there were indeed 
personality dimensions on which problem drinkers were differentiated from 
other types of drinkers ("heavy," "moderate," "light," "abstainer") but, for 
the first time as far as I know, she showed that some of these differences 
were present when her subjects were adolescents. She was able to do this 
because these people in adolescence had been closely observed, interviewed 
in depth, and given a wide range of personality tests. Thus she was able 
to provide support for the hypothesis that there are durable personality 
characteristics, generated in the setting of family life, that predispose 
the individual to problem drinking . 

Mary continued in this line of investigation during her five years with 
the Cooperative Commission and for some years after that. She published 
various papers on the correlates and antecedents of drinking patterns, the 
latest, I believe, in 1981. She may well have others in preparation. 

This work shows clearly that Mary represents a kind of psychologist that 
has become too rare; that is, one brought up in the stern tradition of experi 
mental psychology and thoroughly schooled in rigorous quantitative methods for 
the study of personality but who remains open to radically different approaches 



*Learning After College, Orinda, Ca., Montaigne, 1980, pp. 61-62. 



iii 



Mary was originally trained in the theory and methodology of behaviorism, and 
during most of her career worked in accord with the tenents of this school of 
thought. One of the enemies of behaviorism was, and is, psychoanalysis, and 
it is my opinion that Mary, and her husband Harold, made little use of this 
body of theory and concepts. Yet they were always willing to listen to what 
I had to say on this subject. They gave the impression that they were eager 
to learn about it. I think they were eager to learn, period. 

This approach to science requires strength of character. Mary has this 
in abundance, and when I was Director of the Institute at Stanford I was in a 
position fully to appreciate it. Anyone who takes on the responsibility of 
running a research institute, or any other organization I suppose, has to have 
some people around who can be relied upon absolutely. Mary is such a person. 
What my colleagues at Stanford and I appreciated especially was her loyalty, 
honesty, and forthrightness which, when combined with her good sense and tact, 
made her an ideal colleague. 

Mary's integrity and moral courage are of long standing. (I do not 
know whether the following story appears in the oral history, but it ought to 
be on the record.) Mary was a student at Vassar College in 1917 when Presi 
dent Wilson declared war on Germany. Amid the burst of patriotism that 
followed this act there was a meeting at which the student body at the college 
voted overwelmingly to support the president. Someone shouted, "Let's make it 
unanimous." They would have done so had it not been for Mary, who stood alone 
to say, "No." She was soon joined by a few other students. 

I have written about Mary mainly on the basis of our close association 
during our years at Stanford. I have, in fact, known her since 1940, when my 
family and I moved to Berkeley. Harold was at that time Director of the 
Institute of Child Welfare and Mary was deeply involved in the Oakland Growth 
Study. I saw little of Mary in work situations in Berkeley, for we were in 
different departments, and during my half-time at the Institite of Child 
Welfare I was taken up with the Guidance Study. I knew about her research 
only in a vague and general way, but I felt that I knew her well as a person. 
When my family and I arrived in Berkeley she and Harold went beyond the call 
of duty in making us feel welcome. They entertained often in their home, 
where the groups of guests were large or small but almost always variegated. 
The talk was typically animated, and general, directed to the issues of the 
day rather than to scientific or administrative matters. Mary, ever the 
watchful and gracious hostess, devoted herself to drawing others out rather 
than taking the center of the stage herself. Alone now, Mary carries on this 
same tradition of generous hospitality. It is my impression, however, that 
now, more than in the past, she is likely to tell something about her work. 

One more thing. As an assistant professor at Berkeley, and for quite a 
few years after that, come to think of it, I always felt that I had the moral 
support of Mary and Harold. It seems to me now that whenever I read a paper at 
a meeting of the American Psychological Association Mary was in the audience 
and spoke to me afterward. I valued this support highly and am grateful for it, 

December 1982 R- Nevitt Sanford 

Berkeley, California 



iv 



INTERVIEW HISTORY 



Mary Cover Jones, Professor Emeritus, Education, UC Berkeley; Research 
Psychologist, Institute of Human Development the titles suggest the reasons 
for wanting to interview the subject. Mary Jones' impressive curriculum vita, 
together with Deana Logan's article titled "Mary Cover Jones: Feminine as 
Asset," bracket the multitude of roles Mary Jones has played in her career 
and life. Both are appended and should be read. 

At the outset of this introduction, I must describe the memoir that 
follows as an Early Life History. Mary Jones' name is synonymous with 
Longitudinal Studies, and we are aware that these interviews concentrate on 
the beginnings , with not as much follow through and follow up as we would have 
presented had it been financially feasible to record the complete story of all 
the years . 

The interviews with Mary Cover Jones were conducted January 23, January 30, 
February 2, 1981, and on February 22, 1982. Mary Jones and the interviewer met 
in the living room of the Shasta Road home that the Joneses lived in for fifty 
years in Berkeley. I had prepared a list of outlined questions bringing in 
both global and particular aspects of the lives of Mary Cover and Harold Ellis 
Jones, because this was to be, insofar as possible, a dual biography. Mary 
Jones had studied her copy of these questions not always the practice in 
doing oral history, but a result of the sense that for a developmental 
psychologist, this was the way to proceed and she was well primed with 
thoughts and documents, and so we began. 

Several months later, seeing the transcribed results of the first edited 
interviews, Mary Jones was skeptical of the value to The Bancroft Library of 
recollections that were to her thinking so relentlessly personal in nature. 
She proposed to make of the work two oral histories, editing out what was 
"for family." I argued against such a process. We also talked about the 
commonly-perceived problem for oral history interviews of making sure no one 
was "left out" in the story. Mary Jones took to a suggestion that she begin 
to write up her material on the Institute of Child Welfare (later the Institute 
for Human Development) prior to the next meeting, to be sure to cover the 
history to her own satisfaction. 

The last interview took place a year after the first three sessions. In 
that time severe budget cutting within the University had eliminated the fund 
from which the oral history was to proceed. Without a clear sense of what 
future the oral history had, we chose to review the written material sent to 
the interviewer, in November 1981, and to record Mary Jones' thoughts on how 
she worked to keep the Longitudinal Study participants committed to returning. 
In the volume that follows, the written material comprises the final section, 
and the interview in which it was discussed precedes it. 



On April 28, 1982, Professor Jack Block of the Department of Psychology, 
UC Berkeley, after having lunch with Mary Jones and learning about her oral 
history and its location in limbo, offered the Regional Oral History Office the 
services of his typist and word-processor. It was an opportunity that had to 
be seized instantly. We knew that Mary Jones would be able to make her final 
changes and corrections on the word-processed copy and we would be en route to 
a product. The energy of Jack Block, powered by his great fondness for Mary 
Jones, and the cooperation of the typist Joanie Singer, enabled us to complete 
our oral history. We are in Jack Block's debt. 

We extend our thanks to Mary Jones for her understanding and good humor. 
We thank Ernest Hilgard for the careful historical note on his colleagues, 
Mary and Harold Jones . And we thank particularly Nevitt Sanf ord for taking 
time to write his fine, informative and familiar introductory words on his 
friend Mary . 

Students of child development history, and readers of this autobiographical 
material, will wish to seek out Vicki Green's oral history of a half -century 
of the Institute of Human Development (IHD) at Berkeley, which will be deposited, 
when completed, in the Institute archives. Professor Green, on a sabbatical 
leave from Oaklahoma State's department of psychology, 1981-82, became inter 
ested in creating a history at many levels of IHD's work and its staff, by 
questionnaire and oral history interviews of about twenty key participants. 
A brief presentation on that study is appended. 

Milton Senn and Elizabeth Lomax have done work on the history of the 
child development movement ["The Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial: Some of 
its Contributions to Early Research in Child Development," Elizabeth Lomax, 
in Science and Patterns of Child Care, Freeman, 1978; Monographs of the Society 
for Research in Child Development, Vol. 40, Nos . 3-4, Milton Senn] that gives 
an even broader context to Mary Jones' work. The Sanf ord, Eichorn, Honzik 
memorial for Harold E. Jones (1894-1960), husband and colleague of Mary Jones, 
and the Logan article [1980 Psychology of Women Quarterly] supplement the 
oral history in focusing on the personalities of these memorably human beings . 
[Appended] 

The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record autobio 
graphical interviews with persons prominent in recent California history. The 
Office is under the direction of Willa K. Baum, and under the administration 
of James D. Hart, the Director of The Bancroft Library. 



Suzanne B. Riess 
Interviewer 



January 10, 1983 

Regional Oral History Office 

486 The Bancroft Library 

University of California at Berkeley 



1 . MARY COVER JONES 
[interview 1: January 23, 1981 ] 

Family 

Carrie Louise Higson 

Riess: What do you know about your ancestors? How far back do you remember? 

Jones: Well, it isn't how far I remember but I do have some literature. I 
remember my grandmother on my father's side and both my grandparents 
on my mother's side. 

Riess: Do you know their countries of origin? 

Jones: Yes. I start with my mother. I have no illustrious ancestors, but I 
had a preciously good mother and father. Here is a picture of my 
mother. ' 

Riess: A very strong and put-together-locking woman, I must say. 

Jones: You know this little thing that was written up about me for the 
Psychology of Women Quarterly? [Volume 5 0), Fall 1980, pp. 103-115] 
Nevitt Sanford, who was interviewed for that, said he thought I was 
nurturant. Well, if I'm nurturant, I get it from my mother. After 
she died some years I was down in Carmel. I stood on a 
streetccrner, where I saw an older woman who reminded me of my mother. 
The thought came to me: nobody ever loved me in the same way as my 
mother did, unselfishly and completely. I'm sorry I never told her 
this. She was a grand person. 

Her name was Carrie Louise Higson. She was born in Baltimore, 
Maryland in 1866. One of the outstanding things about her was that she 
had a good voice. She had very little voice training, but she sang 
when she was a young woman. For example, she was in Gilbert and 
Sullivan's The Mikado . She was "poor little Buttercup." So she used 



to sing around the house quite a bit. My father has said to us girls, 
"Neither of you have voices as good as your mother." [laughs] 

Riess: How many children were there? 

Jones: There were three. I had an older brother, five years older, and a 
sister four years younger. 

If you want the educational level, my parents went through high 
school. None of my parents went further formally than high school. 
I'll go on more about that when I come to my father, because he was 
more interested in education. 

My mother was a housewife, and a loving mother, and did the 
things that most housewives do. She was a social and community per 
son: she belonged to several organizations with other women. She was 
more sociable than my father. 

Riess: Did you have grandparents living on her side? 

Jones: Her parents, when I knew them, lived at School Place across from the 
high school. My grandmother was English and French in origin. She 
was born in Philadelphia on May 1 , 1846. She was also a nurturant 
person. She baked on Friday. I went over after high school on Friday 
and got a slice of hot bread from the loaf just out of the oven. She 
was a great handiwork woman. She sent her little embroidered pieces 
to the state fair; she got prizes. She quilted; she had a quilting 
frame set up in her house, in the dining room. She was in charge of 
quilting for the Episcopal church group, and for the is it the 
D.A.R. , the Daughters of American Revolution? 

Riess: Yes. 

Jones: That was the kind of thing she did. If you want to see her quilts, 
I've got them on my beds! [laughs] We can lock at them. And on the 
dining room table, I've got one of her embroidery pieces that won a 
prize at the fair. 

Riess: Back in that generation was there talk about an "old country" at all, 
or a sense of pioneering? 

Jones: No, really not. Her husband, John Higson, was an Englishman. I got a 
little more feeling from him of our background. The story that my 
brother tells me is that he [Higscn] heard the American ambassador 
speaking in London about the slaves in this country. When we went to 
war, he came to this country to fight against the South. He landed in 
Philadelphia and was sent to a camp up in New York state, and that's 
where he met my grandmother. She lived in Elmira then. Her name was 
Anna Eliza Paxson. A Jaquette ancestor of hers came to the United 
States with Lafayette to fight in the American Revolution. 



My grandfather Higscn was wounded at the battle of Antietam. He 
was sent to Washington, B.C. to a hospital. The bullet went in his 
shoulder and came out further down his side. He wasn't getting 
better, and he used to get out of bed at the hospital, or the camp 
whatever it was and go and lie in the stream and let the water run 
over his wound. This is his story that it saved his life. From 
there he was promoted in rank. But he never could fulfill the func 
tion because he never recovered from the wound completely. I can 
remember my grandmother helping him on with his coat, even forever. 

I also remember that when he returned from work he would give a 
favorite call as he approached the door. Grandma would rush to the 
door, and jump into his arms. He caught her and tossed her in the 
air. She was petite. He was a large man. 

Riess: Was your mother an only child? 

Jones: No! The oldest sister was Kate. There were baby twins, boys, who 
died. Then my mother. Then my Aunt Agnes. Then my Uncle Alec. 
There was a Mary who died as a young woman; she had had typhoid fever. 
But when I was growing up, I had my Aunt Kate, who was a public school 
teacher, and my Aunt Agnes, who was married and had children. She 
followed my grandmother's interest in handiwork more than the others. 

My Uncle Alec went to college. He went to Perm State, where he 
also played football on the college team. He married and had a child, 
but he died rather young. 

There's a question here [in interviewer's outline] about who else 
might have been a parent figure. I would say that maybe my Aunt Kate 
to some extent. 

Riess: All of these births and deaths was there a lot of trauma associated 
with that? 

Jones: I wasn't present when many of these people died. But I was present 
when my grandfather Higson died. He was ill, but he was an old man. 
I don't think there was any feeling that it wasn't his time. 

The only traumatic death that I remember from my childhood was my 
Aunt Agnes' s baby boy. I don't think he was more than a year. I used 
to love him and carry him around. He died of spinal meningitis. I 
can remember the sadness of the parents. But there wasn't a great 
deal of death in my childhood. 

You asked about values, and I would like to say one more thing 
about my grandfather John Higson. He was wounded, and he was entitled 
to veterans compensation. He never would take it, because he said no, 
he went into the war on his own, and he wouldn't take any compensation 
for his injury. That's some kind of a value. My brother said that my 



grandfather wouldn' t talk about the war even though he had volunteered 
to fight. He said, "ar is Hell," or something to that effect. 

Riess: What did he go on to do as a business? 

Jones: We had the Cambria steel mills in Johnstown. He was in charge of the 
blast furnaces. He had people working under him. Apparently they 
kept the furnaces going, and he was in charge. 

Riess: This is Johnstown, Pennsylvania. 

Jones: Yes. I think the mills later became the Bessemer Company. 

I was called Mary Liz by that family, just by that family, nobody 
else. My name is Mary Elizabeth. 



Charles Blair Cover 



Jones: Now, you want me to say something about my father at this point? This 
is one picture of him. 

Riess: Oh, he is dashing! 

Jones: Yes, he was. He was considered to be a Beau Brummel. [chuckles] My 
mother said he always locked as though he'd just come cut of a band 
box, which was a way of saying he was neat and well-dressed. I want 
to show you this picture also, which is much more human. That's my 
father with my daughter, Barbara. 

Riess: What was his full name? 

Jones: His name was Charles Blair Cover. Maybe I should go back at this 
point to the Covers, [locking at family history material] 

Riess: An article from the Johnstown, Pennsylvania paper October 30, 1894. 
"A Remarkable Family." 

Jones: Remarkable in the sense that they'd lived in Johnstown for a long 
time. This is about Adam Coover, the father of the family. 

Riess: You're pronouncing it differently: Coover. 

Jones: There were two c's in it originally. Apparently, they still used two 
o's when this was written in 1894. My father said the family settled 
in the east, Philadelphia, and they lost an "o" coming over the Al 
legheny mountains, [laughs] 



Riess: I wonder what the origin of that name is? 

Jones: It's German. I know somebody named Gofer, who thought he might be re 
lated to me, and he spelled his name originally with a K, and then 
they changed it to a C. 

Riess: So they came across the mountains. 

Jones: From Philadelphia. 

Riess: Also because of the steel industry, or coal? 

Jones: No. My grandfather Cover settled up on what is known as Cover Hill. 
This article says they are probably the seven oldest living brothers 
and sisters in the state. 

There was transportation across the country, partly by water and 
partly by land. Grandfather Adam Cover had something to do with that 
system in Johnstown. I think they changed from the river to trains, 
or whatever they had. He was connected with that. He was the second 
son. The first son got the property up on the hill. The second son 
got a suit of clothes and was off on his own. He also was a car 
penter, a cabinet maker. I don't remember him. I'm not sure whether 
he was alive at all when I was. 

Riess: Did any of them go further west, join any of the westward migrations? 

Jones: No. 

Riess: They did net have the lust for gold? 

Jones: No, definitely not. [laughs] My grandmother had the name Blair in 
her family somewhere, and my father's middle name is Blair Charles 
Blair. Her name was Saylor, Mary Elizabeth Saylor, before she was 
married. I remember her. She was practically blind when I knew her. 
We used to go to see her, of course. I was named for her, Mary Eliza 
beth. One Christmas, I wanted a doll, a big doll, and I wanted her 
with brown hair and brown eyes. Christmas came, and there was no doll 
under the tree. I was told Santa Glaus had visited my grandmother, 
too. We went across a bridge it was a swinging bridge across the 
river to my grandmother's and there was the doll in a box. The box 
was closed, and I just sat there and held it but didn't open it. They 
said, "Why don't you open it?" 

I said, "I'm afraid she won't have dark hair." (She did!) 
[laughs] I saw that doll this Christmas time; I gave it to a dark- 
haired granddaughter. It's still in existence. 

The other grandmother, Grandma Higson, used to make clothes for 
that doll. She still wears the same lace-trimmed underwear and a 



white dotted swiss dress made by Grandma Higson. There was also a red 
coat, white wool- trimmed, and a silk bonnet. 

Riess: You must have taken very good care of it. Were you the only 
grandchild? 

Jones: No. That grandmother (Cover), as I say, was almost blind when I knew 
her. She sat in a chair in her living room, I can remember, a rocking 
chair, and she also sat out on the porch. They lived there off of 
Main Street, and across was a big auditorium where they had shows and 
things of that sort. She used to listen to the music. She said she 
felt the music in her feet, and enjoyed that sort of thing, although 
she was pretty inactive. 

Riess: How important was religion for those grandparents? 

Jones: My grandmother Higson was a good Episcopalian. But she didn't like 
the High Episcopalian services, which were more formal. She liked the 
low services, and apparently that's what they had at her church. 

My father was Lutheran. When my mother married him, she became a 
Lutheran. She gave up whatever Episcopal connection she had and at 
tended the Lutheran church. We went to the Lutheran Sunday school. I 
joined the Lutheran church. I remember being quite serious about that 
when I was an adolescent. I went to Sunday school, and I went to 
church. They had children's day with speeches, songs and plays in 
which I participated. 

You wanted to know about my father's business? 
Riess: Yes. 

Jones: He was in a number of different businesses. At the time of the flood, 
which we're coming to later, he and his brother had a livery stable. 
There were horses and carriages which they rented, and they kept 
horses. My mother tells about seeing my father before she knew him, 
even, riding around town with a stallion that's an unaltered horse 
hitched to a carriage, looking like a well-dressed dandy! Well, they 
lost all that in the flood. And then, after the flood, he went into 
the grocery business. When we get to the flood, I'll tell you how he 
got started with that. Then later he went into the coal business; he 
had some coal mines. That was his last venture. 

Riess: To have some coal mines means he had a claim and worked them, or what? 

Jones: Well, yes. He had two mines that I know of and I can remember him go 
ing up the hill to the mines. I don't know what he did up there 
supervised, apparently. 



The Flood 

Riess: When did he and your mother meet? 

Jones: Well, maybe we should go to the flood. Both my mother and father were 
in the flood. [May 30, 1889] My father lost his house and his busi 
ness. But his house went off the main flood stream for some reason; 
my mother's house went down the main stream where all the houses were 
being swept away. Her father got the whole family up on the roof and 
several other people in the neighborhood. According to the story, he 
told them when to jump, when to stay where they were, and when to hang 
on. They finally were swept down to the stone bridge, which held. 
But when things crashed into the bridge, they tended to burn. He got 
them all out from the wreckage and up on to the hillside. 

And in this little story, my grandmother said, "Here we are, 
homeless and penniless." My mother had two cents in her pocket. She 
had bought a quart of milk for eight cents and given the milkman ten 
cents; there were two cents change, and that was the extent of their 
money supply. 

They had some relatives named Hamilton who lived on the hill. 
They found the Hamiltons,, or the Hamiltons found them. There was a 
flood committee appointed by survivors and my father was in charge of 
supplies. 

Then the Red Cross came in, of course, and brought supplies. And 
my father was in charge of seeing that the right people got the right 
supplies. 

My mother came to get supplies. She got a blanket, handwoven, 
sent by someone in Michigan. I had it for years. When they opened a 
museum in Johnstown, I sent it back there. The family was given a Bi 
ble. It was a Bible that had a lot of passages marked for comfort. 
We used that Bible as a family Bible and put in dates of births and 
deaths. Well, that got lost. You know there have been several floods 
in Johnstown. That got lost in one of the later floods. 

Anyhow, that's how my father and mother met. He liked her locks, 
and gave her nice little confections and such. Then they got married. 

Riess: Did any member of the family live down below the dam again, or did 
they all move to the hills? 

Jones: No, we lived in the valley. There was a flood, I can remember, when I 
was there. The basements used to get filled with water practically 
every spring. The river banks were just too narrow, and the city just 
didn't do enough about it, I guess. 



8 



Riess: Disaster, did you feel, was always threatening? 

Jones: Well, it's just like sitting here in the Bay Area with the earthquake 
possibility. 

Riess: Not too much feeling of danger. 
Jones : No . 

My grandfather Cover is mentioned in this book as being one of 
the older people who was saved. [McLaurin, J.J. The Story of Johns 
town. Harrisburg, Pa.: James M. Place, 1890. Also: O'Connor, R. 
Johnstown; The Day the Dam Broke. Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott, 
1957.] And then, this is about my mother. This is about getting off 
the bridge, getting off of the debris: [reads] "The people seemed to 
be stunned. Many men went to work to save the victims. The first 
person recognized after probably a dozen women and children had been 
rescued was Miss Carrie Higson, who walked off as deliberately as 
though going down the gangplank of a steamboat." [laughter] That ex 
plains it all. And that explains why my father went into the grocery 
business. Apparently, after giving out supplies, he decided it was 
the kind of thing to do, so he went into the grocery business. I have 
a picture of him standing in front of his store. 

Let's see. Maybe the educational level comes now. I told you we 
were not a highly educated family. I'm still talking just about my 
side of the family, not my husband's (Harold Jones). My father always 
regretted the fact that he hadn't had more education. I would say he, 
maybe more than my mother, saw to it that when anything came to town- 
-a musician, or a speaker or a play we all got to go. 



Chautauqua 

Jones: Then, Chautauqua, New York, up on Lake Erie, had a summer institute 
for six weeks. There were educational courses, lectures, concerts. 
We didn't always stay for six weeks. But we went up every summer for 
many years. 

There was the Chautauqua Scientific and Literary Circle, CLSC. 
In the summer there were lectures, and then, it was like a correspon 
dence course with reading assignments for the winter. That was some 
thing like a four-year course, apparently, and my parents took that. 
They attended graduation festivities. 

My brother was quite musical; he took violin lessons, played vio 
lin in the orchestra, played baseball [at Chautauqua]. Walter Dam- 
re sen led the orchestra. We children belonged to clubs there was the 



girl's club and the boy's club, with nature study and swimming and 
other activities. 



Riess: 
Jones: 

Riess: 
Jones: 

Riess: 
Jones: 



Riess: 
Jones : 

Riess: 
Jones : 
Riess: 

Jones: 



Riess: 

Jones : 
Riess: 



Recently, I was talking to my sister about this experience. She 
said it was a great influence in her life. 

Were there many people from the town who did this? 

No, I don't know anybody else, except my Aunt Kate sometimes went with 
us. 

Then when you got there you were in boarding houses? 

Yes, we were in boarding houses. We stayed at the St. Elmo. There 
was a hotel, The Atheneum, which was the best place to stay. But we 
weren' t that well off. 

Do you remember names of Chautauqua speakers or performers? 

I believe I heard Scott Hearing there. I remember President 
Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt came there. They put up arches for him to 
march under as he came in, and they had five children sitting in each 
arch one at the top, two on each side. I was one of the children who 
sat on an arch and saw Teddy Roosevelt. 

And Chautauqua was lectures, not just entertainment. 



Oh, no, it was supposed to be serious, 
church, I remember. 



And religious we went to 



A particular religion? 

No, I don't remember that there was any special denomination. 

It was just something on Sunday that took care of the religious as 
pect. 

Yes. I remember also one afternoon when the girl's club was going 
swimming. I went in my bathing suit, which was a big dress with a 
skirt. And I didn't have any stockings on. I was twelve years old. 
They wouldn't let me be on the beach without stockings. I had to go 
home and get stockings, [laughter] So we were very proper at that 
place. 

Getting away from your home town, did you meet young girls of your age 
that opened up your idea of the world? 

Yes, at Chautauqua. 

I was wondering whether these were people who opened your vision of 



10 



what life was all about in any way. 

Jones: Yes, I would say so. I remember one woman from Columbus, Ohio, who 
lived in our little St. Elmo. She persuaded my father to send my 
brother to Ohio State, because he could stay with her until he got 
into a group of young people. He joined the Delta Upsilon fraternity. 
So he went to Ohio State, for one year, then he transferred to Colum 
bia. He went to college, and then my sister and I went. Of course, 
this was my father's idea; he wanted us to go to college, because he 
never had the opportunity. 

Riess: Was there a good library at home? 

Jones: Yes, I read. I think a lot of it was pretty poor stuff, but I read 
and read and read, [laughs] 

Riess: Was your father interested in politics? 

Jones: Yes, my parents were Republicans. And my father ran for at least one 
office treasurer of the county or something of that sort but he 
didn't get elected. 

Riess: Your mother did the Gilbert and Sullivan did you feel that she was in 
any way a frustrated performer? 

Jones: I don't think so. But she could have been. Not perhaps as a perform 
er, but in general. I mean, she was a housewife. She had other abil 
ities that might have been developed. But in those days this did not 
become an issue. Woman's place was in the home. 

Riess: Chautauqua was a big trip. Were there any other summer vacation des 
tinations? 

Jones: No, not that I remember. We owned a place called Brookacre, which was 
several miles out from Johnstown. We used to go out there. I used to 
take my friends. But as a family, that was about it. 

I had an aunt my father's sister, Molly, and her husband who 
went to Europe. They used to bring us home presents. 



Education for the Cover Children 



Riess: Your brother went to Ohio, and then to Columbia. Was the emphasis on 
his education? 

Jones: I think my father wanted us all to go to college. My mother wanted us 
to go to college, all right, but she was sorry to have us leave home. 



11 



I remember when I was married to Harold, and we were doing graduate 

work, one of my aunts said, "Why doesn't he come home and teach in the 

high school?" She didn't have as much ambition for us as we had for 
ourselves. 

I don't know whether this comes in now, but my brother was five 
years older. He was an influence because he was, of course, that much 
ahead of me in school. He was editor of the school paper, so I wanted 
to be editor of the school paper, and was. My father thought I could 
do as well as my brother. 

Riess: As far as they were concerned, women had possibilities. 

Jones: Yes. 

Riess: You weren't being tied to the apron strings? 

Jones: No. I think my mother never quite understood why I became profession 
al, [laughs] 

Riess: Did you learn to do all the things that you should have learned to do, 
like cooking and sewing? 

Jones: Oh, yes, oh yes. Oh, we did housework, you know, even through we usu 
ally had a live- in maid. I remember I could make noodles, very fine 
little noodles. That was one of my specialties. 

Riess: It sounds like the German side of the family, to know how to make a 
good noodle. 

Jones: Yes. My mother used to make an effort to cook German things. There 
was something called schnitz and knepf, or something like that. 

Riess: Oh, yes, I know what that is. 

Jones: Do you? 

Riess: Yes, it's apple and ham. 

Jones: Yes. And every Saturday night we had oyster stew. My father went to 
a special store where the oysters came in on Saturday. You see, we 
weren't on a seaport. 

Riess: What were the schools like in Johnstown? 

Jones: I went to the neighborhood school; I walked to school. I remember my 
teachers. We used to have spelling bees. We stood up, and if you 
spelled the word right, and got it better than the next person, you 
moved up the line. I got so excited and fidgety that my teacher had 
to call me over and fasten up buttons which had gotten undone. 



12 



[laughter] That's what I remember about early school. 
Riess: Did you usually win? 

Jones: Well, I guess so. I think I stood up pretty long toward the top. I 
got good report cards. Yes, I did all right in school. 

Riess: Did you learn Latin and Greek? 

Jones: Latin, in high school. I didn't take Greek Latin and German. And 
physics these were college preparatory. 

The question of where I would go to college came up. e went and 
visited several. We visited Bryn Mawr and Barnard, and Vassar. And 
here's a very silly thing that doesn't belong in there, but 

[laughter] 

Riess: Oh, let's risk it. 

Jones: A man named Harrison Fisher, an artist, drew pictures of women. There 
was a picture at that time of a young girl sitting at a desk; there 
was a Vassar pennant on the wall, and she had one of these American 
beauty roses on the desk beside her. And I thought, "Gee, I'd like to 
go to Vassar." When we looked at Vassar, it was commencement time, and 
I was shown into a room, and introduced to a girl who had a dozen 
American beauty roses in a vase. So I knew it was true! 

Well, I decided to go to Vassar. 

Riess: Were the high school teachers and counselors strongly influential? Or 
was it just your parents who were motivating you? 

Jones: It was my parents and nfy brother. I can remember my brother being 
motivated by teachers, and an English teacher in particular. They 
wanted to make sure my brother got to college. When it came to me, I 
think it was just more or less assumed that I would go. 

Riess: Did you need a scholarship? 

Jones: There was never any question of a scholarship. I don't think we knew 
there were such things. Let me say a few more things about high 
school. I told you, my brother was editor of the paper, the Specta 
tor. So I wanted to be editor of the Spectator. There was a boy in 
the class, Ralph Coleman, who wanted to be editor also. Apparently, 
we both wrote, and it took several months to decide, but finally they 
said I could be the editor. Ralph became the business manager. For 
the first several months, we didn't get on too well. But at Christmas 
time, he showed up at my house with a ten- pound box of chocolates, and 
said this was because I hadn* t run over the budget of the Spectator. 
From that time on, we were friends! 



Riess: It sounds like this was a romance, or was it just a friendship? 

Jones: It was considered a romance. When I went back to the high school 
reunion, fifty years later, someone said, "I thought you were going to 
marry Ralph." [laughter] I had a couple of boyfriends from time to 
time. I had one in the fifth grade. There was a Rutherford Sheridan 
who brought me a rose each morning for a while in the fifth grade. He 
came and sat on my porch in his high boots, with his dog, to save me 
in one of those threatening Johnstown floods. 



Education 



Entering Vassar 



Riess: You said you went to Vassar, as if there were no question of your get 
ting in. Was there any difficulty in being admitted? 

Jones: No. At that time, Johnstown High School was accredited and I was 
recommended by my high school. But this is where we come to my prob 
lems. My high school preparation was very poor. I began having dif 
ficulty immediately, with Latin especially. I was told that the two 
girls _who had gone to Vassar before me from Johnstown had both flunked 
out. (One was the niece of the high school Latin teacher.) If I 
flunked out, that would take away the accreditation for Johnstown. So 
I was under pressure not only to stay for myself, but for the reputa 
tion of the Johnstown High School! 

Well, I flunked Latin. I had a tutor at Vassar, a Miss Swan. We 
had a song about her related to tutoring, with the refrain: "Take me 
back to Swanny's door." I had to tutor in the summer at home. I fi 
nally passed Latin. But here I was at a place where they'd say to 
you, "Where did you prep?" I didn't "prep" at a prep school. I just 
went from an ordinary high school. I had trouble. 

Riess: And there was a significant difference in sophistication between the 
rest of those "preppie" girls and yourself? 

Jones: Yes, I would say so. They had no problems at all about grades. They 
didn't have to study as hard as I did. I can remember waking up at 
six o'clock in the morning, to study geometry. 

Riess: Were you in a room by yourself, or did you have a roommate? 

Jones: No, I had a roommate, a friend well, she's a friend now; I saw her 
this Christmas time. She was Lois Warner from New England. We had 
two joining rooms the first year. We had three rooms for our sopho- 



14 



more and junior years, two bedrooms and a living room, and then we had 
singles next to each other as seniors. 

Riess: Did you write home regularly when you were in college? Did you have 
time to do that? 

Jones: To write? Oh, yes, and my parents wrote to me. My father wrote to me 
at least every week, probably a couple of times a week. Yes. 

Riess: Have those letters survived? 

Jones: No, I don't think I have any of them. 

I remember when I went home my freshman year, I wanted a new 
evening dress, and I wanted a black evening dress. My mother said, 
"You're too young for a black evening dress." My father said, "I'll go 
shopping with her." I got a black evening dress, [laughs] 

However, then we had the war. I was in college during the First 
World War. So there weren' t many occasions to wear a black evening 
dress. 



Riess: 



Once you had gotten through your freshman year, you had really made it 
over the hump. 



Jones: Yes. But I can remember that first year. If you got a slip saying 
you failed, it was in a little envelope, and it was put in your mail 
box. Well, I lived off-campus all freshman year, at McGlynn's, be 
cause I hadn't registered early enough to get on campus. And they 
called them wardens in those days the warden used to bring our mail 
to McGlynn's from the main campus. I can remember our awful tension, 
thinking maybe we're going to get one of these little slips. If you 
got three of them, you were out. I got one in Latin. After I made up 
the deficiency, I wanted to go on with Latin, but my advisor said, 
"Oh, you'd better not." [laughter] 

Riess: Was there an advisor who was assigned to you? 

Jones: Well, there was one person assigned to you when you first were an 
entering freshman. You were given the name of someone who would be 
your advisor. What I did was to go look this person up. She was a 
German professor, and she was simply astounded. She said, "You're 
supposed to wait for me to make the contact." I never was very close 
to her. 

One of my English teachers, Winifred Smith, was a great person. 
She taught Shakespeare, that was her specialty. She came to our dor 
mitory room one night with the Shakespeare class and read Othello. I 
had refreshments to offer the class afterwards. But Dr. Smith was so 
moved by this reading, she had tears in her eyes and she just rushed 



15 



off. She was really moved by Shakespeare. By the way, would you like 
a cup of coffee or tea or something? [brief tape interruption] 

She was one of the influences as a faculty member. I saw her in 
New York after I graduated, and I kind of apologized for not having 
been back to Vassar. She said, "I don't think you should come back to 
Vassar. You've left Vassar, and people who come back seem to me to be 
kind of looking into the past instead of into the future." I went to 
my forty-fifth, my fiftieth, and my fifty-fifth reunions. I don't 
think I'll go to any more. 



Psychology and Economics Studies 

Riess: Was there a prescribed course that was taken in the freshman year? 

Jones: Yes. We had to take math, and depending upon what we had had before, 
I think I had to take geometry and trigonometry. If you had had Ger 
man, you took French. I took French. I had to go on with Latin for 
one year, and I had to take chemistry. Then sophomore year I started 
psychology and economics. I majored in economics. This is as an un 
dergraduate. 

Riess: And psychology was just one of the sciences that one took? 

Jones: No, I elected it. I had Margaret Floy Washburn, who was the second 
woman to be president of the American Psychological Association. 

But I didn't do well in the laboratory course. I didn't like it, 
and I didn't work at it, and I got a C. 

Riess: What were you doing in the psychology laboratory? 

Jones: What they called threshold limits when you could hear a sound, and 
when you could taste something, this kind of thing. I didn't like it. 
It was Titchener. He was at Cornell, and we used his textbook. And 
then weights, when you could feel a weight, this one different from 
that one. 

Riess: What branch of psychology is that considered? 
Jones: Let's see, what did you call it? Structural. 

Well, Washburn wouldn't let me into her seminar, because I'd only 
gotten a G in the laboratory, and that was her favorite course. But 
she was a very go.od teacher. Senior year I did take a course that she 
gave with Tredwell I guess he was a biologist so there was a combi 
nation of sciences and of points of view. Washburn, for example, 



16 



didn't like the idea of child psychology. She didn't teach it; she 
let someone else teach it. When the Blodgetts donated the building 
for a nursery school, she objected very much. 

Riess: She was the women who [l have read] said, "Over my dead body?" 

Jones: Yes. She's the one. 

Riess: I'd like to hear more about Margaret Washburn's attitude about this. 

Jones: I believe that she thought that child psychology was inferior to the 
kind of psychology she wanted to develop, which was a kind of Titchen- 
erian psychology, structural. It was experimental, and she thought 
that child psychology was introducing something like home economics, 
which she would also think was an inferior field for bright Vassar 
women. 

Riess: And in fact, no home economics was taught at Vassar, and no domestic 
sciences, or anything like that. 

Jones: There was never any home economics; there isn't now. (Later there was 
a Department of Child Study, but it was originally called "Buthenics." 
Perhaps that sounded more scientific!). And of course, there isn't on 
this campus, either. 

Riess: Well, if somebody at that point were majoring in psychology, which you 
weren't, what more would they have gotten at Vassar? 

Jones: They would have done an experiment, and she would have published it 
with them. She published with some of her best students. 

Riess: Was she the only psychology professor? 

Jones: No, there was Professor Gould who taught child, and Josephine Gleason. 
But she [Washburn] was the head psychologist. I met Professor Wash- 
burn at a meeting of the American Psychological Association in Prince 
ton when I was studying at Columbia. She was very cordial, knew about 
my marriage to Harold and my work at Columbia. 

Riess: What did you think you would do with the economics? 

Jones: My brother was in economics, you see. He had an influence en me. I 
wasn't sure what I'd do. But at any rate, I had taken all of [Herbert 
Elmer] Mill's courses, and liked them. And when I applied for a sem 
inar, he let me in. I did what I think is one of the best studies I 
ever did, a history of the Socialist Party in the United States. I 
went down to New York, went to the magazine The Masses (I think that 
was the name of the Socialist paper at that time) and interviewed So 
cialists, and wrote a good report and then I threw it away after gra 
duation. 



17 



Riess; 
Jones: 



Riess: 
Jones; 



Riess: 

Jones : 
Riess: 
Jones : 
Riess: 
Jones : 



College Summers 

Did you go home to your family summers in your Vassar years? 

The summers? The first summer I went home and had a ^job in the YWCA. 
The second summer Oh, yea, one of those summers I went as a counselor 
to a camp for underprivileged East Side New York City children. 

At that time my brother was engaged, and his future wife and I 
went together. That was when he was in the service, during the First 
World War. He was in Europe and she and I went to thia summer camp. 
She arranged it. 



A third summer, I went to a settlement house, in 
worked in a lower-class neighborhood with the children, 
ranged through Vassar. 



Boston, and 
That was ar- 



One summer maybe more than one summer they had students stay 
and farm at Vassar. I applied for that, but for some reason they 
didn' t think I looked subatantial enough to do a physical job. I 
waan' t choaen. 

You mean work in a vegetable garden? 

Yea. Actually I had quite good health. In fact, when I entered Vas 
sar, they did a physical exam and asked questions about my ancestry. 



They seemed to be impressed that all of my grandparents had 
be into their seventiea, at least. 



lived to 



It's interesting that they would encourage some of you to farm during 
the summer, since they were down on home economics, and all other re 
lated activities. 

Well, the war made it a different thing. 

The Victory Garden idea. 

Yes. 

I see. It wasn't a Vassar tradition to till the land every summer. 

No, no. Just during the war. 



Vassar Traditions 



Riess: Tell me about your social life during college. You said that most of 



18 



the boys were off fighting the war. 

Jones: Yes. We didn't have proms the way you ordinarily do until the war was 
over. At that senior prom, I went with a man who was a friend of my 
roommate's brother somebody I hadn't known before, and that's the 
only time I ever saw him. My first year at Vassar, I went over to 
West Point. There was a young man from Johnstown whom I knew who was 
at West Point, and invited me to a dance, or a hop, or whatever they 
called it. I took a couple of friends. That was all that ever 
amounted to . 

We had daily chapel in the evening, required. 
Riess: Was there inspirational talk also with chapel? 

Jones: Not especially. But, yes, there was always a talk and singing, and a 
choir. And we always ended, as I remember, with a song with words 
from the Bible, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. 
Not as the world giveth give I unto you. Let not your heart be trou 
bled, neither let it be afraid." I never objected to having to go to 
chapel. Maybe some people did, but it didn't bother me. 

I think chapel was at seven. I can remember in winter time wear 
ing galoshes. Actually, some girls wouldn't fasten them up, and you'd 
hear these buckles clinking as they walked down the chapel aisle. 

Riess: Did you study in your rooms? 

Jones: I studied in my room a good deal, I studied in the library too. My 
roommate and I had a living room and we each had a bedroom. We drew 
numbers for rooms. They were all the same price; it was part of the 
tuition and board and room. At the end of the freshman year, you drew 
a card, and according to how lucky you were in the draw, you got your 
choice, or maybe your second or third choice of accommodations. As I 
say, I was off-campus freshman year. We drew cards at the end of the 
freshman year, for the next two years. Then senior year everybody 
went to Main Hall, and then we drew again for that. 

They used to have stepsinging practically every night. We went 
to Davidson dormitory and sat on the steps and sang. One I like to 
remember goes: 

Oh we never used to bathe 

Till we heard the doctor rave 

In the lectures that she gave 

How to behave. 

Now we take our daily bath 

Even though we miss our math 

How in the world did you know that? 

She to Id us so ! 



19 



It ends with: 

We will keep our heart a prize 
For the right man who applies 
How in the world,? etc. 

Ve were advised to be heterosexual. This was Dr. Thelberg. She also 
warned against finger-bowls. They might carry germs venereal? 

Riess: And the daisy chain, were you in the daisy chain? 

Jones: Oh, yes, the daisy chain. That's a good question! I couldn't 
remember just how the daisy chain was chosen. I called Jane Brooks 
last night do you know her? She went to Vassar. I said, "How was 
the daisy chain chosen?" She said, "For looks." I said, "Well, that's 
what I thought." But as I remembered, the girls that were on I didn't 
think they were very beautiful. The reason I wanted to know was: when 
my father came to my commencement my father and mother came to my 
commencement there was a daisy chain, and my father said, "Why aren't 
you on the daisy chain?" He thought I was an important person! He 
thought that I should have been on the daisy chain! [laughs] And I was 
trying to remember why I wasn't on the daisy chain. 

Riess: Did you look like your mother when you were young? 

Jones: I think I looked more like my mother. You see, my father had "this 
kind of patrician nose. And my brother and sister both have that, and 
I don't. But I have curly hair, at least wavy, which my father had. 
I've got a combination of things. 



Socialism, Pacifism, and the War 



Riess: You said that you did your paper on socialism. Was that something 
that really interested you personally? The Socialist view? 

Jones: Yes. I was president of the Socialist Club at Vassar. 
Riess: How did you get into that? 

Jones: I don't know. Well, you see, I was not a prep girl, and I think maybe 
I just thought I'd better be different. I wasn't a Socialist; I 
wasn't a member of the party. But we had a Socialist Club, and I was 
one of the officers. Some of my friends, of course, were in it. 

Riess: Did it include a group that you would think of now as rebels? 



20 



Jones: There were several Jewish girls in it. I had quite a few Jewish 
friends. Maybe that was also part of my feeling that I didn't belong 
to the prep group. One Jewish friend told me that there was a quota. 
I mentioned this at a recent meeting of the East Bay Vassar Alumnae 
Club. I was told by a member of the class of 1924, Elizabeth Paragoh, 
that she had asked Josephine Gleason, admissions officer at Vassar, 
about this. Jo Gleason told her that there had never been a quota for 
selection for any group at Vassar. 

Riess: Was it the not very religious German Jewish intellectual type? 

Jones: Yes. Some of these girls belonged to the Ethical Culture, if you know 
what that is, in New York City. 

In my day, when you entered as a freshman a list was posted with 
your name and religious affiliation. An upper classman might consult 
the list and invite you to go to church with her in Poughkeepsie. One 
of my Jewish friends put up "Ethical Culture," and somebody had 
crossed it off and put "Jewish." 

A senior called and asked me to go to church in Poughkeepsie (the 
Lutheran). Maybe I went once or twice. But I lost my religious in 
terest, in fact, as a result of my first course in philosophy. 

Riess: Did you identify, then, with these Jewish girls in some ways? 

Jones: Well, I was friendly with several of them. I went to visit two of 
them in New York City for occasional weekends. But, of course, I also 
had other friends, my roommate for four years, and a friend of ours 
who always had a room near us, Mary Herring. 

Riess: Were there I'm certain I know the answer to this were there any 
Black girls? 

Jones: No. There were two Chinese; no Blacks. 

Riess: Chinese from China? 

Jones: Yes. 

Riess: Did any of these Chinese girls go on to become well-known? 

Jones: They went back to China, and I don't know what happened to them then. 

Riess: They didn't marry Chiang Kai Chek, or anything like that? 

Jones: No, that was a Wellesley graduate. Madame Chiang Kai Chek was Welles- 
ley. 

Riess: Was suffrage an issue that was part of your 



21 



Jones: Yes! I worked on that. One of my friends, Miriam Beard, daughter of 
the historian Beard, went to jail for picketing, I believe in Washing 
ton, B.C. Suffrage was granted in 1920, which was the year after I 
was out of college. I worked on it at college. I remember we went to 
see either Pratt or Platt in Poughkeepsie, who was a member of the 
Congress, and we finally persuaded him to vote for it. Inez Mulholand 
Bausevain, the suffragist, was a contemporary Vassar student. 

Also, I was a pacifist. I don't know whether that's in any of 
the papers I've shown you. 

Riess: No. 

Jones: Yes, my brother was a pacifist. As a senior at Columbia he organized 
Students Against War. He graduated in 1915, was in the foreign ser 
vice in Vienna as a special attache under William Jennings Bryan. Be 
cause of the war he was recalled in 1917. 

When we went into the war I was at Vassar. They had a mass meet 
ing in the chapel the night war was declared. It was celebrating and 
approving our entrance into the war. A student got up and moved that 
we say that the Vassar students were all in favor of this. That 
passed. Then somebody got up and said, "Let's make it unanimous," and 
I got up and said, "No." Then some of my friends, and others, got up 
and said, "No," also. You know, I'm kind of interested. I thought 
maybe when I went back after forty-five or fifty years, somebody would 
still remember that, but they didn't. They hadn't held it against me. 

Riess: Had it been something that you had been thinking about before that 
night, or did it just gel that night? 

Jones: Oh, yes, I'd been thinking about it._ I'm sure it was my brother's in 
fluence. There was a pacifist meeting in New York, and I was invited 
to go to represent Vassar. I asked for permission to go and was told 
no, my grades weren't good enough. I think that was just an excuse. 
But the Hew York Times came out with my name as representing Vassar. 
So I was called up before the Vassar student council. They were all 
ready to expel me, but I said I hadn't gone. So [laughs] 

Riess: You might very well have been expelled? 

Jones: Yes, or suspended or something. I haven't been that fired up about 
anything since. Oh, maybe being married by Norman Thomas was also a 
little far out. [chuckles] 

Riess: When your brother declared that he was a pacifist, did that bother 
your family? 

Jones: He went to Johnstown to register. My father went with him when he re 
gistered. By this time he was married and his wife was pregnant so he 



22 



was excused. In 1945, after the Second World War he was sent to Biar 
ritz to organize the Army University Center for soldiers who were 
waiting to come home. At that time he was a professor of economics at 
the University of Pittsburg. 

Riess: So his conscientious objection or pacifist status was not on a reli 
gious basis, I take it. 

Jones: No, I think he was just anti-war. Maybe my grandfather's experience 
had just 

Riess: In the same way, you were anti-war. 

Jones : Yes . 

Riess: Did it re-direct your life? 

Jones: You mean my interest in the Socialist Club? 

Riess: Or in the pacifism. 

Jones: No, but I am still anti-war. 

Riess: Did you campaign for Debs when he ran for president in 1920? 

Jones: No, I was a Democrat. I believe I heard Debs lecture at Chautauqua. 

Deciding to go on in Psychology 

Riess: Could we continue to follow your interest in psychology? 

Jones: Margaret Washburn was a very good teacher, and I was really interested 
in psychology. But I wasn' t sure when I left Vassar and went to 
Columbia whether I would go into economics or psychology. 

Riess: How did you know, though, that Columbia was the graduate school to go 
to? Just because your brother was there? 

Jones: Yes. Actually, I thought of going to Johns Hopkins, to work with John 
Watson. 

Riess: How did you meet John Watson, then? 

Jones: Through Rosalie Raynor, who was a classmate of mine. She came back 
from Easter vacation senior year to say that she had gone down to the 
psychology department at Johns Hopkins she lived in Baltimore and 
had been accepted as Watson's assistant. I was thinking then that 



23 



maybe I'd like to go to Johns Hopkins, because I'd heard of Watson. I 
didn 1 t hear much about him at Vassar, but I knew there was such a per 
son. 

Riess: Was she accepted as his assistant because she was a particularly bril 
liant student, or because he already found her a very attractive wom 
an? 

Jones: I don't know, [laughter] No question she was a bright Vassar student 
and an attractive woman. 

I saw her in New York that first year after Vassar, and she was 
saying she was in love with John Watson. I was so innocent, I just 
couldn't believe it, you know. 

When I went to Columbia, I decided on the psychology department. 
I had no trouble. I don't remember even how I got in, but there was 
no problem with achievement as there had been at Vassar. 

Riess: Watson was developing a whole psychology of his own? 

Jones: Yes. And his new textbook, Psychology from the Standpoint of 
Behaviorist [Philadelphia: Lippincott, 1919J, had just come out. I 
can well remember the day where Harold came home with that prize. To 
us even the chapter headings were new and exciting. "Implicit 
Language Habits," "The Organism at Work," "Personality." Watson's 
ideas even permeated our love letters. In a brief separation, Harold 
wrote me: "I am speeding away from all that world which is yours and 
mine. Some of it I take with me in memory or, as Watson would have 
it, 'retained in the neuromuscular system in the form of residual 
molecular change.'" Isn't that impressive? After the Titchenerian 
structural psychology, the behaviorist approach had appeal. 

Oh, and I remember Edward Tolman said that he was terribly bored 
with this Titchenerian approach, and that Watson's behaviorism ap 
pealed to him. Of course, he became his own kind of behaviorist 
Tolman. 

When I got to Columbia I went and saw Woodworth. He was just a 
lovely person. Then I signed up for courses. Do you want this now, 
about Columbia? 



Siblings 

John Higson Cover 

Riess: Since we don't have very much tape left, what we could do is go back 



24 



and pick up your brother and sister, as you suggested earlier, [look 
ing at notes] You were a middle child. Did you ever think about your 
middle child status? 

Jones: I think in my case it was good. My brother is five years older and my 
sister is four year younger. I don't know how they managed that. My 
sister was very devoted to my brother. She called him "mine John." 
Her John. Anytime I had any associations with him, she would remind 
me that he was hers. But I don't think he felt that way about it. He 
used to take me to dances to teach me. He let me play tennis with him 
and a girl at Chautauqua. I think we've always been quite close. 
When I went to Columbia, he was there. 

Let me tell you first of my brother, since he was older. This is 
he. [shows photo] I talked about Chautauqua. He took music lessons, 
played in the orchestra and played on the baseball team at Chautauqua. 
He wrote music. He wrote the high school song, which I have "Dear Old 
Johnstown High School." They still use it. And they invited him back, 
I guess it was about 1970, to give him a key to the city and an award. 
He's living in Yellow Springs, Ohio. He taught at the University of 
Maryland; they lived in Washington, D. C. then. He was with the 
government for some time with assignments as economic advisor to a 
number of foreign countries: India, Barbados, Syria. When they re 
tired, they moved to Yellow Springs, Ohio. His wife is an artist. 
She did that, [looking at painting] She has had a number of exhibits 
of her sculpture and paintings in Washington, D.C. Recently she had 
an exhibit in Yellow Springs and was written up in the local papers. 
She had friends in Yellow Springs, and she persuaded John to move 
there. 

Anyhow, my brother wrote the high school song. The Merchant of 
Venice has something in it about "Tell me where is fancy bred, or in 
the heart, or in the head," which was supposed to be a song, and he 
wrote music for that. Somebody from a Shakespeare company came to see 
the performance in Johnstown (it was when my brother was in high 
school), and used the music for a long time afterward, his music. 

Then he wrote something called "Serenade to a Jeep" when he was 
in Biarritz teaching soldiers who were waiting to be sent home. The 
Jeep was fairly new. That's the sort of thing he did. 

Now he is still writing little things for the local paper in Yel 
low Springs. I should tell you that he wrote a poem I wonder if I've 
got that here somewhere about my sister here it is when she was 
born. I don't know whether you want me to read it to you. 

Riess: This is a poem written by a nine-year-old. 

Jones: Yes. I like this line: "She is a very good one, although the bed she 
pees." [laughter] Spelled it p-e-e-s. I guess that's all right. 



25 



I have a little sister 
Her name, I think' s Louise 
she is a very good one 
Although the bed she pees 
She likes for us to hold her 
And not to put her down 
But, oh my! When she spits 
It flies all over the town. 

There are several more verses indicating that she tries to talk, 
but "I wish that she could walk." 

He's always been a great conservationist. He also got some kind 
of an award from the National Parks Association because he was an off 
icer for that for years. 

Riess: Was he a radical thinker in economics? 

Jones: Well, I don't think so. Actually, at the University of Maryland, he 
was head of some kind of business bureau, business economics, which is 
kind of surprising, because he's not the establishment. 

i 

Riess: But he was not a Socialist. 

Jones: No. This time he voted for Commoner. 



Anna Louise Cover Hill 

Jones: I'll go on to my sister, who was four years younger. Her name was 
Anna Louise. She was named for her grandmother and her aunt the 
sisters and she preferred Louise, which was the aunt's name, the name 
she's taken. 

Riess: Did your parents plan these age gaps? 

Jones: I don't know. We never talked about things like that. 

She got an A.B., I think in botany, at the University of Wiscon 
sin. I can't remember why she went there. Probably some Chautauqua 
influence, somebody she met who suggested that. She went on to get an 
M.A. at Columbia. As a child, she was a little unconventional. I 
remember one time when we were stood up to have our pictures taken, 
she put a teddy bear in front of her face so she wouldn't show. 

I remember that teddy bear. One Christmas, she asked for a bear, 
a book, a bed, and a ball four things. And I wanted a teddy bear 
also. I must have been about twelve. My parents decided I was too 



26 



old for a bear, and they got me a very nice little Morris chair in 
stead, but they got Louise the bear. Sometimes Louise and I slept in 
the same bed, and I was jealous of that bear. One night I grabbed it 
from her, and she grabbed it back, and I pulled its head off. 
[laughter] It was put back together again, but that was how I showed 
my resentment. 

She was very good at nature and mechanical things. I remember 
she knew how to take care of our car, the mechanics of the car. And 
she learned to drive before I did. She was interested in that kind of 
thing. For a while she worked at Columbia in the greenhouse propagat 
ing plants, and then somehow she got off to Seattle doing the same 
sort of thing, I guess at the university. Then she got T.B. out 
there, and she was ill for several years. At that time, my brother 
was in Denver, so they took her to Denver and she was at the T.B. san 
itarium. 

So she married rather late, and has no children. She married a 
man who lived down in the San Joaquin Valley and had a dairy farm. 
She wrote a column three times a week for the Merced Sun-Star called 
"The Diary of a Dairy Wife." She did that for seventeen years. They 
were good columns; I think they should be put together into a book. 

Her columns talk about how they name their thoroughbred cattle, 
about The Spring Beckoning of Birds: "Mr. Titmouse has a hankering for 
our sunflower seeds we grow just for him... The bluebirds come back to 
look over their summer nesting home. They use it each summer 
squatter's rights. ..A couple of hummers, teased the quince for a bit of 
nector." 

Here is part of a column on lambing: 

Maybe we had better get 
this straight as to why we 
have our lambs come in the 
foggy, cold, should be rainy, 
winter. 

It is not because we are 
old meanies. We are farmers 
trying to pay our taxes with 
the able assistance of the 
livestock we enjoy. 

Sure, I know Canada and 
New England and Pennsyl 
vania have their lambs come 
in the nice, cheerful, sunny 
spring. Although in Ohio I 
have seen the litle guys pogo 
sticking through the snow 
following their mothers who 



27 



paw the white stuff for nip 
of the grass beneath. 

It is all a matter of plan 
ned parenthood. Like the ear 
ly bird the early lamb hopes 
to catch the higher early 
market. It is as simple as that 
economics. 

She is a devoted naturalist, bird watcher, knows her wild 
flowers. She also had a radio program. One program was on bells. 
Several people sent her interesting bells. 

She mentioned that Chautauqua was a great influence in her life. 
Here's something she [Louise] wrote to me recently. "Harold always 
expected so much of you, and you always came through. I think that is 
why it is hard for you to accept little daily things as normal. Your 
challenge has to be big." [laughter] 

Oh, by the way, she does these little greeting cards, decorated 
with real weeds and flowers, and she said to "give some to your inter 
viewer." Aren't those nice? 

Riess: When you wrote to her to ask about the interview, what questions did 
you ask her? 

Jones: I call her every Sunday morning at 8:30 on the phone. I just told her 
on the phone that I was going to be interviewed, and that if she 
remembered anything from our childhood or early life that she thought 
should be mentioned, to let me know. One of the things I said was I 
heard this business about Father meeting Mother when he was giving out 
supplies after the flood, and she said, "I heard that story too." So 
we heard that same story. 

She seems to have a feeling that now that Harold's gone, people 
can look at me. The idea that I wasn't as important as Harold; but 
now that he isn't here anymore, I can be a little more visible. 

Riess: Is she a widow also? 

Jones: No, her husband's still living. They live up near Yosemite. She 
still writes a note occasionally for the Merced Sun-Star and the Mari- 
posa Gazette. She and her husband, Bob Hill, were both influential in 
getting the library and history center started at Mariposa. Her hus 
band was president of the history society at that time. Here are her 
columns. Oh, we might as well see a picture of her with some of her 
handiwork. She did that kind of glass work. She made these Pennsyl 
vania Dutch symbols, to hang on their barn. Somebody took a picture 
of that for the Merced Sun-Star. So that's the kind of person she is. 



28 



Riess: How did your parents die? 

Jones: My father died in a hospital some kind of a prostate condition. My 
brother was there; I wasn't. He lived to be in his seventies. My 
mother lived in Santa Barbara, but she was visiting my sister who 
lived in Solvang. She apparently had a stroke, she fell and my sister 
found her. This was around New Years time. Anyhow, they called me 
up, and I had flu, but I went down. I took the train down from Berke 
ley. Her doctor had said, "There is no need for you to come. She 
won't know you." I went into the room where she was. She opened her 
eyes and said, "Oh, Mary, how long can you stay?" Isn't that wonder 
ful? I said, "As long as you need me." And that was the last she ever 
spoke. 



29 



2. HAROLD JONES 

[interview 2: January 30, 1981 ] 

Family and Education 
Genealogy 

Riess: Last week, you said you didn't know that much about Harold's child 
hood. But you've done some work since then. 

Jones: Yes. It's been a little difficult, you know, because in some ways it 

was a pleasure to go back over some of this material, and in other 

ways it was sad because it's over. But I thought you might want to 
know about his background. 

He was born in New Brunswick, New Jersey. He was always sorry 
that he wasn't born in New England, because he is a New Englander. 
His father, Elisha Adams Jones, was in charge of the Rutgers College 
Agricultural Station, and so Harold was born in New Jersey. His fa 
ther graduated from Massachusetts Agricultural College. 

Then they went to Amherst, to Massachusetts Agricultural College 
where Adams Jones was in charge of the college experimental farm. So 
most of Harold's life he lived in Amherst. 

Harold has always been interested in his ancestry. I was talking 
to my daughter the other day. She has all of his collected data, his 
genealogical charts. I told her I was going to be talking about 
Harold. She's coming up toward the end of February, and she wanted to 
know if I wanted her to bring the data. She said, "I think the impor 
tant thing was not who his ancestors were, but the fact that he was 
interested in them." And I think that's true too. 

So I have some little things to show you to represent what he 
collected and kept. Here's something. Somebody by the name of Azubah 
Ellis. Apparently this is from his casket. Ellis was Harold's middle 
name. So it's some relative of his. 



30 



Riess: "Died March 2J> , 1858, aged 81 years." Had the family been in this 
country long? 

Jones: Yes. They came in 1630. At least that's one of them. This is a rub 
bing, you know, from his grandfather's tombstone, and his 
grandmother's tombstone. It's not important, but it shows that he was 
interested in that sort of thing. I've often wondered whether his 
mother's name was Brown, and his father's name was Jones. It seems to 
me in order to have any individuality, you'd have to know something 
about people with names other than Brown and Jones, [laughter] 

He saved things like this. This is an old letter from somebody. 
I can't even read it. Then he framed letters that he picked up when 
he was looking up his ancestors see, these hanging on the wall. I 
like this one. It says, "As the men of Massachusetts troops are 
chiefly gone off without liberty, Captain So-and-so and so-and-so have 
leave to go to New England." [laughter] 

Riess: And that's 1763. "Given under my hand at Crown Point, New York, the 
seventeenth." So these aren't necessarily family things, or are they? 

Jones: Yes, they were in the family. Then he went to the trouble of collect 
ing and photographing names from old letters and documents. Here's 
one, 1670, 1657, these are ancestors. He got them maybe from li 
braries where they have genealogies. He really spent some time on it. 

Riess: He did this throughout his life? 

Jones: Yes. And I'm sure, if he'd lived, he would have put it all together. 

Riess: Did he involve your daughters in it? Did he tell the story of his 
family? 

Jones: Yes. And especially the older girl has been interested. There are 
four very thick notebooks, eight by twelve sheets full of information, 
not just names. For example, here is part of an excerpt about Thomas 
Tracy, 1610-1685- 

"He came to America in the interest of his friends Lord Say 
and Lord Brooks and was granted land in Salem, 1638. He was 
variously described as a ship's carpenter and as 'interested 
in ship building.' In 1645 he went (with others) to the re 
lief of Uncas Sachem of the Mohegans, when the Mohegans were 
besieged ^by Naragansetts. Uncas gave him 200 acres of land 
in 1645. ^ (Uncas mark)." 

My granddaughter Jane was reading through some of this material 
and told me another story about Indians. 

An ancestor was going home from the village in Massachusetts at 






' 



31 



night and sensed the presence of hidden Indians. Should he return to 
the village for help or go home to protect his family? He decided to 
go home. At home he climbed up on a hill and started calling as if to 
collect a band of soldiers. There weren't any militia but the trick 
scared the Indians away. 

Here's an old book that he got somewhere. In fact, it's a copy 
of old newspapers. Seventeen seventy-six. This is 1775, some are 
from '76. 

Riess: They really are treasures. 
Jones : They should be in a museum. 

I have dozens of leather books like that, some put away. 

This is grandfather Perez Rio Brown [looking at photographs], the 
third one over there. I have a letter from Harold's sister Florence 
saying that after the grandfather's wife died, he used to take her 
[Florence] to the DAR reunions. 

This is his father, who was one of the editors of the college 
magazine at Massachusetts Aggie. That's his father's picture in the 
Massachusetts Agricultural Journal. 

I'm just amazed: I've got loads of letters that his family 
saved. Then his father came out to live with us after his mother 
died, and he brought all this material with him. So the way some peo 
ple keep diaries, I've got letters and letters, going back to before 
Harold went to college, then all through college. 

Riess: When he met you, was he interested in what your background was? 

Jones: A little. He had one friend at Amherst, the wife of a professor, and 
he wrote her about my background when he was telling her that we were 
going to get married, what he knew about it. He said something about 
my father being a coal merchant, which was true. I guess he thought 
that sounded impressive, [chuckles] 

Riess: Do you know what his mother's education was? 

Jones: I have some old letters and report cards. She went to a private 
school in Philadelphia, apparently, for some time. Then she moved to 
Amherst, too, I think, and went to school up there. She didn't go to 
college. His father went to college, but his mother didn't. 

His father also went to what was called a prep school, Choate, or 
one of those in the East. Probably not because of status, but because 
it was near and they believed in education. 



Riess: His sister was older? 

Jones: Eight years older. Each of them was like an only child in a way, be 
cause they were so far apart. 

Riess: You and Harold are both second children. Do you subscribe to any 
theories about sibling order? 

Jones: I hadn't even thought about it. [laughs] I think it makes a difference 
whether the first child is a boy or a girl. I think there is a lot in 
birth order which may affect a child. But I also think it makes a 
difference whether a boy or a girl was wanted. 

Riess: It sounds like Harold's family would have been ambitious for him. 
Jones : Yes . 

Riess: There was enough money so he could be educated in any way that he 
wanted? 

Jones: Yes. They weren't rich, but they certainly were willing to spend 
their money in that way. 



Interest in Nature 



Riess: 



Jones : 



What was he interested in when he was at Massachusetts 
and when he was at Amherst? His major was biology. 



Agricultural 



Prom the time he was a child, he was interested in nature. These 
notebooks he kept when he was still in high school, notes about the 
birds and the bees and the flowers. He wrote a column for the local 
New Canaan, Connecticut paper, describing what birds had arrived in 
February, March, and so forth. Here are these books, just full: "jon 
quils and other seed-eaters." Just in his own handwriting, you know! 
I saved out this one letter, to his parents after we moved out here. 
This is written in February of '28. [reads] "ildflowers are coming 
out now, about a dozen species in evidence. In many of the fields 
wild mustard has reached a height of two feet, and provides a brilli 
ant blanket of yellow." Then he goes on about them. This one is kind 
of interesting: [reads] "In the back yard of the Institute, some of 
the more characteristic spring flowers are in evidence" and then some 
more of that. "Song sparrows and robins sing a great deal. And we 
are often visited after the children have gone home" this was in the 
nursery school "by flocks of quail. The California quail are less 
handsome and tuneful than the Connecticut variety; but on the other 
hand they seem much more sociable." 



33 



Riess: That interest in nature and observation seems like a very New England 
tradition, like the transcendentalists. 

Jones: His family was not religious. The parents weren't associated with any 
religious groups. 

Riess: What do you think nature meant for him? 

Jcnes: I think it took the place of what religion does for many people. But 
of course it was less sociable; he did it all by himself. 

Another thing, he was a delicate child I think he had diptheria 
when he was fairly young and he didn't go to school. I think he was 
tutored at home until high school. 

Riess: By his mother, or did they have a tutor? 

Jcnes: I think a teacher who came in. I think they were somewhat isolated 
from the school, and he had to go on the train when he did go, down to 
Stamford from New Canaan, Connecticut. 

Riess: New Canaan, Stamford, why were they in Connecticut? 

Jones: After his father's job with the agricultural experiment farm, he left 
and went to manage the Lapham Estate in New Canaan, Connecticut. 

When somebody asked Harold when he was going to go to school, he 
said, "Well, I'm going to wait until I go to college." Actually, he 
went to high school, and he was editor of his school paper. 



Friendships, Amherst 

Jones: You asked me about the influences [on me] of Vassar, the faculty and 
so forth, and I didn't have much to say, if you remember. He has all 
sorts of letters from faculty and to faculty and to student friends to 
whom he wrote. Robert Frost was one of his professors at Amherst. He 
used to go walking with Robert Frost. He wrote to his parents: "I 
was out for a walk this afternoon with Robert Frost." Then there was 
David Praul, a professor, and another one named Stark Young. I think 
Stark Young was fairly well known; he was an English professor. He 
was much more influenced by his friends and his faculty than I; at 
least there's more evidence about it than I ever could produce for my 
self. 

He was a serious student, and a good student. Amherst was much 
smaller than Vassar; there just weren't as many students. So perhaps 
for that reason, he had much more association with his professors. 



There was another association. I mentioned the wife of one of 
the professors, Churchill. Churchill was a professor, and then he was 
elected to Congress. I think Harold had a course with him, but he 
didn't know Mr. Churchill very well. He apparently knew Mrs. Chur 
chill quite well. She invited Harold to her home and showed him her 
garden. He knew so much about the garden and the names of the plants 
and the ferns and so forth that it became quite an interesting rela 
tionship. She used to take him on local nature trips in her car. 

She had a little girl named Rosalind. He cultivated little 
Rosalind. I have letters that he wrote to Rosalind and copies of 
stories that he told her, and that sort of thing. 

He stayed at Amherst one year after he graduated as an assistant 
to a biology professor. So that would be another reason for knowing 
the faculty better than most students. 

Riess: Was Frost well-known at that time? 

Jones: Oh, he was a well-known poet when he went to Amherst. I'd say his 
reputation had been made by that time. 

There was one poem he [Frost] wrote for his daughter. His 
daughter's name was Lesley. And our daughter's name is Lesley, 
spelled the same way. Harold's mother was called Lessie (Estelle). 
Maybe partly because of that, we thought of some name for Lesley that 
would sound like Lessie. So we named her Lesley, and I'm sure it had 
to do with Robert Frost's daughter. Harold knew his daughter Lesley. 
I may have met her. And there's this little poem by Frost, "The Blue 
bird." 

"The bluebird tells the crow, 

'I just came to tell you to tell Lesley, will you, 

that her little bluebird wanted me to bring word 

that the north wind last night that 

made the stars bright and 

made ice on the trough, almost 

made him cough his tail feathers off. ' 

Riess: What about his sister? What did she do? 

Jones: She got married fairly young. She lived in Amherst. Her husband was 
in the Massachusetts Agricultural College experiment station, and also 
taught at Aggie. They lived there most of their lives. After he re 
tired, they moved to Tucson. 

Riess: Do you think that the family's hopes were centered in Harold? 
Jones: Yes. I think the sister felt somewhat that he was favored. 



Riess: Did he act out his life in a way that satisfied his parents? Was 
there consciousness on his part of this? 

Jones: Yes, I think so. And I think from the kinds of letters he wrote, tel 
ling about his successes and promotions and so forth. He knew they 
would be interested in that. 



Mary's Influence, and the Beginnings of the Child Welfare Institutes 

Jones: Actually, as I read over the letters I've just been reading them for 
the first time to get ready for this interview I felt touched by the 
number of references to me, and what I was doing. He wrote that there 
were certain things I could do better than he did, or he was going to 
have me do this or do that, because I could do it better than he 
could. It's something that's very nice to be able to look back on and 
realize. 

You see, I had the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Fellowship in Child 
Development for two years. It was a matter of branching out from 
psychology to take in nutrition, neurology, early childhood education. 
In other words, child development was interdisciplinary. I think 
Harold was influenced by what I was doing. Larry Prank, who was the 
Rockefeller representative, was the person who got California in 
terested in Harold and Harold interested in U.C. He recommended 
Harold for director of the Institute. I remember that Edna Bailey, 
who was in the Education Department here and whom we had first met as 
a Rockefeller Fellow in New York (Columbia) objected to the statement 
in the Memorial that I had influenced Harold's choice of a field. "He 
did it on his own," she said. [Sanford, R.N., Eichorn, D.H. and Hon- 
zik, M.P. Harold E. Jones, 1894-1960. Child Development, 1960, 31 , 
593-608.] 

Of course, Woodworth was also very interested in the developmen 
tal field. He was in charge of the child development section of the 
National Research Council, and was perhaps more influential with 
Harold than Frank, because he was more of an academic figure and a fa 
ther figure for Harold. I have a very nice letter that Harold wrote 
to Woodworth telling him what he'd meant to him. He also has a 
chapter (with Eichorn) in the book Current Psychological Issues; Es 
says jLn Honor of Robert S. Woodworth [Seward, G.S. and Seward, J.P. 
(Eds.) , New York: Henry Holt and Co., Inc., 1958]. 

Riess: Child development was just being born. 

Jones: These institutes were just being set up. Ours [Berkeley] was the 
last. There was one in Iowa started before the Rockefeller grants, 
but they contributed after it got started. There was a center at 



Columbia, where I was, one in Minnesota, one in Toronto. There is a 
history of this movement by Lomax. [Lomax, E. The Laura Spelman 
Rockefeller Memorial, Some of its Contributions to Early Research in 
Child Development. Science and Patterns of Child Care. Freeman, 
1978.] 

Riess: The one in Iowa, what got that rolling? Do you know? 

Jones: I don't know, except this story: some lowans said that the state was 
spending a lot of money studying about hogs, and they thought it was 
time they began studying about children. [laughter] I think Bird 
Baldwin was the first director of the Iowa Child Welfare Research Sta 
tion, at the University of Iowa, in Iowa City, in 1917. 

Riess: Do you recall anything of a piece of legislation, the Sheppard-Towner 
Act, enacted in 1921, for the promotion of welfare and health in ma 
ternity and infancy? It meant a $1 million appropriation to states. 

Jones: I don't know specifically. I do know that originally parent education 
was a large part of the expenditure, and nursery schools were esta 
blished. 



Columbia, Meeting Mary, and Marriage 

Riess: Let's return to Harold's history. We were talking about his years at 
Amherst, before we got off into the beginnings of the child welfare 
institutes. 

Jones: He was interested in psychology, but I don't know what they had in the 
way of psychology at Amherst. I know that he was offered an assis- 
tantship at Johns Hopkins, beginning in fall of 1919, by Knight Dun- 
lap, who was a psychologist at Johns Hopkins. Harold considered that. 

Then he apparently was offered an assistantship at Columbia under 
Woodworth, and decided to go to Columbia. 

We were both at Columbia in the fall of 1919 for the first time. 
We both happened to take a course at the New School for Social 
Research, downtown, with Harvey Robinson, who was an historian. I 
went with a former Vassar classmate, Ruth Mann who lived in New York 
City. At the first meeting of the course, Harold was sitting there 
talking to an Oriental. He seemed to be very compatible with this 
stranger of another race. I couldn't have gone in and sat down and 
felt as much at home as he seemed to. I said to Ruth, "There's the 
most interesting man I've seen since I've been in New York." 

He came up afterwards and said, "Haven't I seen you at Columbia 



37 



on the campus?" I said, "Yes." He wanted to take me home, but I said, 
"I'm with my friend," and I went off with Ruth! 

At the next meeting, Ruth said, "Your friend Jones" she had 
found out his name; I didn't even know his name. But then that time 
he took me home, and that was that. 

Riess: That's lovely! What was the New School's connection with Columbia? 

Jones: It doesn't have any connection with Columbia. It was the New School, 
it had just been established, and it's still there. Watson taught 
there at one time when he was in New York. I think Robinson probably 
also had taught at Columbia. 

Riess: Why the name, "New School?" 

Jones: I think they just wanted to be less rigid in the sense of academic re 
quirements and to present broadly meaningful material. It attracted 
people who wanted something a little more flexible and selective, 
maybe, than academic university courses. I don't know whether you got 
degrees there or not. Cornelia Parker, Carleton Parker's widow was in 
the class. Carleton Parker had been an economics professor at U.C. 
He died young. Cornelia wrote a book about their relationship: The 
American Idol. There are two streets in Berkeley named for him, I 
presume Carleton and Parker. 

Riess: Isn't it surprising that in the midst of your study in psychology that 
you were at the New School taking history? 

Jones: Yes, but I was in New York City for the first time, and there were 
lots of distractions and attractions. Part of the reason we were in 
New York was to go to concerts, theaters, museums and we discovered 
the New School. 

Riess: Were you living alone then? 

Jones: No, I was living with Lois Warner, who had been my Vassar roommate. 
She was a musician. When Harold and I decided to get married, she de 
cided that she'd move down nearer her headquarters, the Mannes Music 
School, and so we took the apartment. 

Lois married her music teacher, Guy Maier. They became a well 
known two piano team. Now she has turned closer to my field. She is 
a volunteer counselor at the Senior Health and Peer Counseling Center 
in Santa Monica. 

Riess: Did you ever think to yourself, "This is going to be the end of my 
career? Marriage?" 

Jones: No, and I think Harold assumed that I wanted to go on. For example, 



38 



we took our eight-hour written exam for the Ph.D. There were six of 
us taking it: Harold and I, and four other people. I was pregnant, 
and Woodworth said, "Isn't it going to be kind of hard for you to sit 
here for eight hours, concentrating? Wouldn't it be easier if you had 
two four-hour sessions?" 

I said, "Yes, it would." So he made everybody come to four-hour 
sessions on two days instead of one eight-hour. So I guess people 
thought I was going to continue. 

Of course, I didn't get my degree until '26. Harold got his in 
'23. I had two children in the meantime. 

Riess: Did your motivation flag at all through any of this? 

Jones': No. I always thought I'd be doing something. Actually, I taught 
school one year. This was before any children were born. I quit at 
the end of the school year because I was pregnant. I taught an 
ungraded class in a public school when they were just beginning to try 
ungraded classes. They took twelve youngsters who didn't adjust in 
regular classrooms and gave them all to me. I quit that because I was 
pregnant. 

Then I did mental tests for the Psychological Corporation, a New 
York . organization, which still exists. We tested children who were 
going into the first grade. We did a short Terman, and that test went 
in the files. That was their I.Q. at that time, and in fact supposedly 
for the rest of their school years. (That's something that we've 
learned at our Institute, that I.Q.'s are not permanent.) I remember I 
quit that job because Lesley was born on June 8th, 1925- She came 
early. I was supposed to work until June 15. Dr. Mitchell, who was 
my employer at the Psychological Corporation, was a little annoyed at 
me for having the baby before the last week of school! 

Riess: Would Harold have been very disappointed, do you think, if you had 
just given it all up and stayed home? 

Jones: I don't think so. But I think he was very pleased that I was going 
ahead . 



Berkeley 

The Lighter Side of Harold 

Jones: We haven't talked at all about Harold's lighter side. He wrote poe 
try, jingles, and he did original Christmas cards, he told stories and 
wrote letters to the children. 



Jones: I don't have many of them. Here's one To Our Professor, and I don't 
know who that was, but I think it was somebody at Amherst. There are 
two of those. Then he wrote this one to Professor Stratton: 

I sing not of arms and the man, but of disarmament, 
When battleships will not be so darned prominent, 
When fascistic factions, and sadistic actions, 
Will cease, 
And nations turn from war to peace. 

In that day both Slav and Latin 
Will bespeak the name of Stratton 
As one who used his talents 
To knock the jingoes out of balance. 

Amid his colleagues in Geneva 
He needs no apologist; 
So let us turn from Europe's fever 
To honor a psychologist. 

Rich in faith that could not fail 
We find him a young man at Yale, 
Exploring concepts, percepts, recepts, 
Obeying Scriptural precepts. 

Gay were those pre-doctoral days, 
Merry those days at New Haven, 
Little he knew, when an Eli blue, 
What the future for him was savin' . 

Famed e'en then for insight, 
And also for upside down sight, 
Quite at the start of his career, 
He was celebrated as a seer. 



40 



He could escape from any prism, 
Reversals were a spur to him, 
And students of the organism, 
Were happy to defer to him. 

And as we scan, in later days, 
The outcome of these cerebrations, 
We note with pride and high appraise 
His list of publications! 

The psychology of Demos, 
And Romulus and Remus, 
Wolf-children of the Ganges, 
Who walk on their phalanges. 
The sayings of Theophrastus, 
Whose wisdom far outclassed us. 

The curious ways of cattle, 

When they smell the blood of battle. 

The emotions of the Philippine 

When his hand is in the guillotine. 

And college girls' vivacity, 

As related to pugnacity. 

Remember too that study of illusory undulations; 
(it has, however, no relations 
To Oriental observations.) 

To one whose motto e'er has been Lux et Veritas 
Tonight, we love and honor you, Professor Emeritus. 
And if you'll still remain our guide, 
Through many kinds of isms, 
We'll keep ourselves topside, 
As with your prisms. 



Nevitt Sanford wrote a poem for Christmas 

1951, and he said, "With apologies to Prank Sullivan" --he [ Sullivan] 
used to write for the New Yorker "and to Harold Jones." Harold was 
famous for his humorous doggerel. 

He used to do a lot with radio. One year, I remember, he had a 
radio up the chimney, which spoke like a Santa Glaus. Once we had a 
party here, to announce a friend's engagement. We had arranged so 
that the announcement was made over the radio, presumably by a news 
commentator. He used to love to do tricks. 

Riess: It sounds as if he had a very great sense of celebrating occasions. 
Jones: Yes. In fact, after he died, Jane, my little granddaughter, who was 



41 



just maybe three, would sit and look at the radio, and say, "Where's 
Granddad?" She seemed to associate Granddad with the radio. 

He was very helpful with several people. We had a gardener who 
was drafted in the Second World War. He broke, emotionally and men 
tally, and was sent to a mental hospital. He was Polish. Leo's sister 
was asked to take him from the hospital. She didn't feel she was ca 
pable to care for him. Harold took him. We took him to our place in 
the country. Harold spent a lot of time with him, pretty much helped 
get him back to normal. Harold thought it would be a good idea for 
him to go down to the San Joaquin Valley and maybe get a job on a 
farm. He arranged that. Later he met and married a widow who had a 
little boy. They're still in touch with me. 

Riess: Were these therapeutic relationships? 

Jones: No, I wouldn't say he ever thought he was doing therapy. But Harold 
was very sympathetic with people who had problems, and did what he 
could on more or less a common sense basis. 

Riess: You're the one who's always referred to as nurturant, but would you 
say that he was also? 

Jones: Yes, I would say so. He was an unusual father. He would say to Les 
ley, if it was time to wash her hands, "Wash hands?" He talked to them 
at their level, and seemed to appreciate them at their level. I have 
letters which he wrote, mostly to his parents, telling about little 
things that the children said and did at various ages, their use of 
language. 

My daughter reminded me when I was talking to her the other day, 
that at one time he bought each of the grandchildren pencils with 
their name printed on them. They lived in El Cerrito at the time. On 
the way out to get the grandchildren, he hid pencils in little places 
along the way. Coming back to our house, Harold would make excuses to 
stop at these places and the children would find these pencils with 
their names on them in bushes, under the stones and so forth. 

My daughter, Barbara, has written up some of these experiences. 
She said when she drove back across the country with him from the 
East I guess when she must have been in high school or a freshman in 
college they went through North Dakota or South Dakota, and she found 
a fossil bone. She said, "I've often wondered if Dad found it and put 
it there where I'd see it!" [laughs] "He never told me, but I always 
thought it was so unusual that on my first trip going through the 
Dakotas that we would be taking a walk and we'd find this bone!" 
[laughter] He loved to play jokes. 



42 



Meiklejohn, the Oath and Psychologist Friends 

Riess: Was Alexander Meiklejohn an important influence on Harold? 

Jones: Oh, yes. Meiklejohn was president of Amherst, when Harold was a stu 
dent there. Harold tutored his two boys. I have letters that Harold 
wrote to the boys. I have letters that he wrote to the first Mrs. 
Meiklejohn. I think he was always somewhat in awe of Meiklejohn, but 
also very closely associated with the family. Of course, Meiklejohn 
is a liberal, a strong civil liberties advocate. At the time of the 
oath, Harold signed the oath. Meiklejohn would never have signed that 
oath. Harold used to go walking with him, but he didn't follow his 
political lead. Meiklejohn set an example, and he had a following. I 
have some pictures of Meiklejohn and newspaper clippings that Harold 
collected. Meiklejohn was let go from Amherst, and went to Michigan. 
But then he was invited back, finally, for an LL.D. at Amherst, just 
as Tolman here had his problems with the regents, and then received an 
honorary degree and has a building named for him. 

Riess: Why was he fired from Amherst? 

Jones: Some people said he was a poor administrator, but perhaps his politi 
cal activities were unpopular with the regents. 

Riess: You had said that Harold didn't follow Meiklejohn on the oath contro 
versy. 

Jones: No. During that oath controversy, Harold thought that the people who 
refused to sign the oath were admirable, but he didn't feel that in 
his position he wanted to make an issue of it. 

Riess: You mean the people who refused to sign the oath? 

Jones: Yes, who refused to sign it. And, of course, we knew Tolman; we had 
arguments up here with Tolman and Meiklejohn. Harold felt that the 
regents had made a great mistake. But he just felt they were probably 
as sorry as anybody else that they'd required it. He didn't feel that 
it was going to lead to all sorts of restrictions on people's liber 
ties. In other words, he just didn't feel he wanted to object to the 
extent of resigning. 

Riess: Did you agree with him? 

Jones: I would have been more willing not to sign. In fact, I talked to Tol 
man about it, and Tolman advised me to go ahead and sign. I think 
partly because he knew Harold wasn't going to resist. I don't think I 
would have added anything, as far as my status was concerned, to 
Tolman' s group, [chuckles] 



Riess: In such a discussion with Tolman up here, who else might have been 

here? 


Jones: The Tolmans, the Erik Eriksons, the Meiklejohns, Stewart Chase who was 

visiting here then, and Harold and I. 

Riess: The fact that some of these people were psychologists, was there a 
special thoughtfulness about the actual psychological consequences, 
damage aspects, whatever? In a group like this did you talk like 
psychologists? 

Jones : On the oath? 

Riess: Yes. 

Jones : No . 

Riess: The Tolmans, Eriksons and Joneses were just like other people? 

Jones: [laughter] Yes. Erikson didn't say much, as a matter of fact, as I 
remember. I think eventually he did not sign. But at that point, I 
wouldn't have known what he was thinking about. 



Psychoanalysis, and Other Theories 

Jones: On one of these outlines, you asked about Freud, and We haven't said 
much about that. We had a group up here the Tolmans, Jean Macfar- 
lane, Jean Macfarlane's husband then, Don, and Harold and I who got 
together and read Freud. 

Riess: Did you say Erikson was in that group or not? 

Jones: No. Erikson wasn't here then. That was earlier, before Erikson came 
here. 

Riess: Did you pooh-pooh it? 

Jones: Oh, no! e were seriously interested in what Freud had to say. 
Harold and I had a friend, Gordon van Tassil Hamilton, who was an 
analyst in Santa Barbara. We knew him first in New York City; he was 
doing a study of marriage. Harold and I were subjects for that study. 
So we knew him back there. He published a book with an introduction 
by John B. Watson. An associate, Kenneth Macgowan, used the same ma 
terial in a book. [Hamilton, G.V. _A Research in Marriage. Boni, 
N.Y., 1929; Macgowan, K. What's Wrong With Marriage. 1929.1 Then he 
moved to Santa Barbara, and was in private practice. 



44 



Harold and I, two different summers, had some analysis daily for 
maybe six weeks. So I mean we were not anti-Freudian by any means. 
They called it didactic analysis, learning, really, something about 
analysis. We lay on a couch, and told our dreams, and talked. I can 
remember Hamilton's putting on the board the id, the ego, the supere 
go, and that sort of thing. 

Riess: Did you and Harold share that experience with each other, then? 

Jones: Yes. And we talked a good deal about how we should handle our chil 
dren, that sort of thing. 

Riess: I would like you to tell me how much of an influence all of that was 
on the theoretical basis of the Child Study Center? 

Jones: I think the influence was not so much on the theoretical basis, but on 
bringing in people from different theoretical backgrounds for exam 
ple, Erik Erikson, Elsa Frenkel-Brunswick, Nevitt Sanford, dynamic 
psychologists. i think that our Institute probably had more varied 
personnel than other institutes. We had physiologists, physicians, 
psychologists, sociologists, social workers. I think that was pretty 
largely due to Harold's influence. Harold was first director of 
research, and then he became director of the Institute. It was under 
his directorship that many people from other disciplines came in. 

Riess: How did you influence each other in staff meetings? What was the way 
of sharing thinking? 

Jones: We had seminars, staff meetings, research reports, person to person 
communication. For example, Erik discussed his play techniques, you 
know, having children do things with toys, families, and that sort of 
thing . 

Riess: Had he already developed his theory of the eight stages of growth? 

Jones: Yes, I'm pretty sure he had. 

Riess: It wasn't through observations at the Child Study Center. 

Jones: No, I'm sure he had these ideas before. 

Riess: From observation, or was that theoretical? 

Jones: I'd say it was pretty largely theoretical, although he did observe In 
dians, and he's had some reports on the behavior of Indians. But I 
would say his contribution was mostly theoretical. He had a practice; 
he may have used that too. 

Riess: The thing that everyone knows that Freud did was to orient most of 
life toward the sex drive. What were your various responses to that? 



45 



[pause] For instance, was Harold, with his New England background, a 
bit of a Puritan? 

Jones: He was, and I was too, as I told you last week. I don't think that 
Freud he thought what happened to you as a result of your sex atti 
tudes and sex behavior was important, but I think he was pretty much 
of a Puritan himself! [laughter] 

In fact, one professor at Amherst told Harold that he thought too 
much sex interfered with your creativity. I think we tended to be a 
little Puritannical. 



Child-raising and Watson's Theories 

Riess: From what I've read, I would think Freudian psychology would not have 
been well-received by people who were in the developmental field. 

Jones: Well, certainly Watson, who is associated with child study, and Freud, 
are thought of as antitheses. Actually, they both believed that 
childhood is the very formative period, that parental influence was 
extremely important. But of course, from there on, they're quite dif 
ferent. Watson thought the answer was for parents to keep their hands 
off and not have children become too attached or dependent upon their 
parents. In other words, he didn't like the idea of parental fixa 
tions. Freud didn't like that idea either. But I would say that 
Freud thought children should be associated with their parents much 
more. And Watson thought they shouldn't be subjected to too much 
parental influence. 

In this country the first nursery schools tended to be scheduled 
for all day, or nine to three with lunch and naps. You see, they were 
patterned after the English nursery schools. England had nursery 
schools before we did, during the First World War. We had English 
nursery school teachers over here. And Americans, Abigail Eliot for 
example, went to England to study. 

At Columbia an Englishwoman, {Catherine Edwards, was the head of 
the nursery school where I got my training. She was very strict. 
Children had to finish their juice; as she said, "I'm as inexorable as 
the laws of nature: if a child takes tomato juice, he has to finish 
it." 

And I would say that the first nursery schools were fairly severe 
in this way. Children had to finish their juice, they had to take 
their nap, and this kind of thing. 

I think maybe it was partly Freud's influence that parents got 



46 



the notion that they needed to spend more time with their children and 
were responsible for their parent-child relationships. At our Insti 
tute we started nursery schools with the naps and lunch, but before 
long we had just the morning session for younger and the afternoon 
session for older children. Our mostly middle-class children did not 
need the all day care provided for working mothers. Also, two ses 
sions gave us more children of a wider age range for observation and 
study. 

Riess: At the time that Katherine Edwards was insisting that you finish your 
tomato juice, was that also a time when the parenting was in the same 
spirit? 

Jones: I would say so. And I would say that that would have been Watson's 
influence, also. In his book, Psychological Care of Infant and Child 
[New York: W.W. Norton and Company, 1928], he writes: "Never hug and 
kiss them [children]. Never let them sit on your lap. If you must, 
kiss them once on the forehead when they say goodnight. Shake hands 
with them in the morning." 

He quoted one parent, "a dear old lady," who said, "Thank God my 
children are grown and that I had a chance to enjoy them before I met 
you." Of course, Watson's whole theory of being objective was probably 
part of that. You know, he's written quite a bit in popular magazines 
about, "give me a child when he is two, and I can make of him a mer 
chant, thief, beggar, anything. I can make anything of him." It 
perhaps had to do with his own divorce and remarriage and all this 
kind of thing. I'm not sure. 

[added later] When John B. Watson's life is featured, I tend to 
be called on, as his "last student," to comment. This year at the 
American Psychological Association meetings his son, James B. Watson, 
was a speaker on the same program. Our meeting was cordial and pro 
ductive. His remarks were insightful and beneficial, especially for 
those who are familiar with John B. Watson's Psychological Care of In 
fant and Child and have doubts about his recommendations. 

To quote Jim Watson in regard to his own upbringing: "I, frankly, 
think a better end product would have resulted, if the process of 
growing up under the direction of two behaviorists had been annealed 
with some measure of affection. I am sure my upbringing is not 
unique behaviorism was then and is now a very convenient way of rais 
ing kids. But it is my great hope that the teachings of his disciples 
and others who have followed him have tempered the emotionally Spartan 
upbringing that he espoused. I believe his behavioristic theories on 
child development unquestionably have value in terms of life's 
preparation through the setting of standards and developing an under 
standing of the parameters of acceptable and responsible behavior, but 
they could have been much improved if one were permitted to mix in a 
big helping of parental affection." Rosalie Rayner Watson might be 



47 



said to have endorsed John's theories in her article: "I am the moth 
er of a behaviorist 1 s son." [Dec. 1930, Parent's Magazine, 5_, 16-18] 

Jim's wife, Jakie, daughter, Becky and her fiance, his son Scott 
and his wife all came to the meeting. He took us to dinner after 
wards. And recently Jim was in Berkeley on business and we got to 
gether, first at my house, then for dinner at the Claremont. His 
mother, Rosalie, died when he was ten. Since she had been a classmate 
of mine at Vassar, I was able to talk to him about her. I got out my 
Vassar yearbook with his mother's picture which he had never seen. I 
had enlargements made and sent to him. Whether or not we approve of 
his behavioristic upbringing, he is an attractive, thoughtful and 
understanding person. 



Harold's writing, Mary's TV Class 

Riess: I realize that the beginning of this conversation was my asking about 
Meiklejohn at Amherst. I'm glad we mentioned him. [reads] "Undoubt 
edly the Amherst education contributed much to our conception of 
Harold Jones as a gentleman and scholar of the old school." [Harold E. 
Jones Memorial, appended] 

Jones: I haven't read that recently; that sounds like Sanford. 

Riess: Yes. He also talks in this of Harold's remarkably lucid and graceful 
literary style. 

Jones: Yes. Actually, I think everybody at the Institute, and certainly I, 
felt that he was just an excellent editor. As it says in there, if 
you had something that needed to be fixed, he helped you fix it, in 
writing. He certainly did that for me. When I first started writing 
things after he was gone, I just didn't know whether they were any 
good or not because I didn't have him to tell me. 

I gave the first TV course for credit for the University. I 
remember once or twice I came home, and he would comment on something 
I'd said on TV. We didn't have a TV at first. Sears used to have a 
store on University Avenue, and he'd go down to Sears and watch my 
program. One Monday he was in there, and they wouldn't turn to that 
program. He went to Hinks, and when I got home he said, "You look 
better on Hinks TV than on Sears," and he bought one of them. 

Of course, he was on the program quite often. Actually, we gave 
the program together. 

Riess: Did you have a script that you read from? 




Mary Jones hosting the first television course for credit from UC Berkeley; 
a visiting orthodontist and Marjorie Honzik discuss thumb-sucking, 1952. 




Mary Jones interviewing Larry Frank, Director of 
the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Foundation, 1952. 



48 



Jones: Too much. [Compared with] the way people get up and talk on TV now, 
we were much too scripted. We always had other people on, you know. 
We had Larry Frank once, when he was out here. Nursery school teach 
ers, and some of the people in the study with their children. It was 
much too scripted. 

Riess: It was a class for credit? 

Jones: Yes, for credit, if you wanted it. There was a syllabus that went 
with it. They took exams. It was a course through the extension 
division. 

Riess: Did you and Harold engage in mutual critiquing of each other? 

Jones: Well, not too much. In fact, as I say, from the letters I've been 
reading, he was very admiring of what I was doing mostly, and telling 
people so. I remember one letter, I guess he wrote to me, saying we 
had been asked to do something, and he said, "You can handle a discus 
sion much better than I can" 



49 



3. THE WAY WEST 

[interview 3: February 2, I98l] 

A Career for Mary Cover Jones 



Careers for Women, 1919 



Riess: You said in your interview with Deana Logan [Psychology of Women Quar 
terly, op.cit. ] that there was peer support for combining achievement 
and motherhood evident at Vassar in 1919. I wondered how it was evi 
dent. 

Jones: It was supportive. Yes, it was; except that I first thought of going 
into medicine, pediatrics. I've always enjoyed children, and thought 
of going into medicine to work with children. The college physician 
discouraged me. She said, "You have to realize that if you go into 
medicine, it probably means you can never marry." In those days, you 
either got married or you had a career. I dropped organic chemistry, 
which I was taking in order to get into a medical school, and decided 
not to go into medicine. It was, about that time when I heard Watson 
lecture, and decided that child psychology would be a substitute for 
medicine. 

Riess: This statement was about the support for combining achievement and 
motherhood evident at Vassar. 

Jones: Well, it could have been, because two of our classmates did go into 
medicine. They didn't marry, as a matter of fact, either. Why the 
physician thought she had to tell me about this I'm not sure. But ap 
parently I wanted to marry, although I don't remember a time that that 
would have stopped me. 



50 



John B. Watson 

Riess: You said that Watson was charismatic. How about describing him, and 
telling me really what charismatic was. 

Jones: Well, he was handsome, but this didn't influence me as much as it did 
some other people. I was reading Lois Meek Stolz's interview with 
Senn. Thorndyke suggested that she go and talk to Watson, and that 
perhaps she could work in child psychology. This was when she was at 
Teacher's College Columbia getting her degree. She went down to see 
Watson. He was then in advertising. She describes how handsome he 
was, and how polite he was. He rose to meet her. Usually professors 
didn't treat students this way, she thought. She was terribly im 
pressed with him. 

One reason I wasn 1 t so impressed was that I met him through my 
friend, so it was more personal than professional. The other thing 
is, as I told Senn in my interview, which I looked at yesterday, it 
was when I was first married and I was just attached to Harold, and 
other men didn't exist for me, even to look at, apparently! [Senn, 
Milton J.E. Insights on the Child Development Movement in the United 
States. Monographs of the Society for Research in Child Development, 
1975, 40, (3-4), 1-99.] Although I will say that I enjoyed Watson very 
much, and did appreciate his style. He was a Southern gentleman. 

He really didn't talk much about his theories and so forth with 
me. He would talk more about how much it cost him to go out last Sa 
turday night, and whether for a talk he should wear a blue suit or a 
brown suit. Once I told him "a business suit" when he was going to be 
on the platform, to speak at Teachers College, Columbia, and everyone 
else had blue suits. He scolded me for not having properly prepared 
him. 

Riess: Was he underestimating your mind in not having conversations about 
theories with you? 

Jones: I don't think so. I think he just was glad to get away from that on 
Saturdays when he came up to our house. 

I'd like to say this. I have never explicitly wanted to follow 
Watson's advice to parents. We were thrilled by his theoretical point 
of view in psychology, contrasted to what we'd had from Titchener and 
other laboratory psychologists. He had a chapter in his book on per 
sonality, and there were few psychology textbooks at that time, if 
any, that had a chapter on personality this sort of thing. But when 
it came to his advice to parents, we weren't with him. 

That's another thing Senn asked me: if I followed Watson's ad 
vice. I didn't. I thought it was too bad that he wrote some of his 



51 



popular books and articles on parenting. He himself said in his auto 
biography that two books which he had written were a mistake. [Wat- 
son, J.B. John Broadus Watson, A History of Psychology in Autobiogra 
phy, Vol. 3. Edited by C. Murchison. Worcester, Mass.: Clark 
University Press, 1936.] He said that he didn't know enough to write 
them. These were Behaviorism [New York: W.W. Norton Inc., 1924], and 
Psychological Care of Infant and Child, 1 928. 

Senn asked me if I'd followed Watson's advice. I said, "No, I 
hope I raised my children more naturally." [chuckles] 

Riess: I asked you last week, after we had turned off the tape, why it had 
taken your insight to consider positive modification of behavior using 
his theories, and you had said Watson himself would have gone on and 
done 

Jones: He says so, that he unfortunately lost contact with the child whom he 
had conditioned (Albert). I think if he had stayed in the field, he 
would have gone on with positive approaches. 

Riess: You feel that Watson had not done enough work with children? 

Jones: You mean that his recommendations were not based on experience with 
children? I would say so, although he'd had four children of his own. 

Riess: How did they turn out? 

Jones: One son committed suicide. I don't know what to say about how they 
came out. I admire James, whom I know. 

He complained to me at one time that Rosalie's parents allowed 
the children to be too affectionate, and spoiled them and so forth. 

Riess: That was certainly a period in child-raising. Can you imagine child- 
raising theory ever returning to that? 

Jones: No. But several people have said that Freud and Watson were alike in 
emphasizing the importance of early childhood. This was a good con 
tribution. He [ Watson] made some excellent contributions, but he also 
went off the deep end on some things. 

Riess: You said he came to your apartment. At the Hecksher? 

Jones: The Hecksher. 

Riess: Were there other proteges? 

Jones: No. Lois Stolz had told me several times that she wanted to work with 
Watson. He told her to come to the Hecksher Foundation and see what I 
was doing. She came, and I met her. I'd forgotten this, but she says 



52 



that some child had diptheria, and she wasn't allowed to come in for 
weeks. She wanted to get her thesis done, so she did something else. 
Apparently [Edward L.] Thorndike had sent her down to see Watson. 

Riess: In general, would he have worked well, Watson, with students and pro 
teges? 

Jones: Well, yes, I would say so. You see, Rosalie was his protege. That 
was kind of the undoing of him academically. My husband helped me 
with writing my articles on children's fears, and suggested putting in 
charts and things. I would like to have had Harold or Watson co 
author those articles. I said to Watson, "Don't you want to co-author 
these?" He said, "No, I've made my reputation, and you have yours to 
make; if I put my name on there, it won't do you any good." So he was 
a generous person. He didn't want Harold's name as co-author, with 
mine either. 



The Hecksher Foundation 



Jones: While we're on the subject, this was at the Hecksher Foundation, which 
you said you wanted to discuss. There again, I talked to Lois Stolz 
yesterday and told her I was doing this history. She said, "Be sure 
to tell them about your life at Hecksher, because this was very unusu 
al for a psychologist to actually live in the place where she was 
working with and observing children." 

In addition to those two articles which I published, I did a lot 
of other things. Some of these Watson refers to in his books that 
came after. One was that the children were kept in bed because there 
weren' t enough attendants to watch them. I made recommendations to 
the institution about improving the situation for the babies. Another 
was I kept a record of crying, and found there were certain periods 
when more babies were crying. I recommended a change in schedule so 
that they ate at a different time, this sort of thing. 

Riess: What was the model of care for them? 

Jones: It was institutional care. Hecksher had hoped to have, as he called 
it, "The Children's Home for Happiness." He thought it would be an or 
phanage. There were not enough children available who needed per 
manent care, as in an orphanage. There were children there whose 
parents temporarily couldn't take care of them, or perhaps they'd been 
deserted. But they were there weeks or months, maybe a year or two. 

Riess: Were some of them retrieved by the families, or were they put up for 
adoption? 



- 



53 



Jones: They were either retrieved or they were put up for adoption or went 
into foster homes, this sort of thing. 

Riess: So they weren't following any theoretical model; this was just keeping 
a maximum number of people quiet. 

Jones: Yes. We gave some of the children crayons and they scribbled on the 
wall. Hecksher didn't like this, [laughs] 

Riess: Didn't he build a new place? 

Jones: This was the new place. Do you want to see some pictures of it? 

Riess: Yes. [brief tape interruption] 

Jones: This picture is taken from a program for the children's theater. When 
my article about Watson came out in the American Psychologist, people 
sent me pictures and clippings. Somebody found that picture and sent 
it to me. [Jones, M.C. Albert, Peter and John B. Watson, American 
Psychologist, 1974, 29_, 581-583.] 

Riess: Was Hecksher involved enough to have a say in how the place was run? 

Jones: Oh, yes. There was an apartment on the third or fourth floor, which 
was supposed to be used to teach young people how to keep house. 
There wasn't any candidate for such training, so we got that apart 
ment. 

Riess: And you and Harold -lived there? 

Jones: Yes. And Barbara, our older daughter, Barbara. 

Riess: This is interesting. Of course you'll hang onto this because the pro 
gram for the children's theatre is also a whole description of the 
Hecksher Foundation for Children. This building, I take it, still ex 
ists on 5th Avenue between 104th and 105th? 

Jones: Yes. 

Riess: Is it still functioning? 

Jones : No . 

Riess: You were able to make these changes. What kind of a staff was there 
besides you? 

Jones: We weren't on the staff at all. We were just allowed to observe, and 
we made suggestions. They had the kind of staff you'd have in a home 
for children, mostly attendants, one nurse, and I don't remember too 
many others. 



54 



Riess; 
Jones; 



Watson wrote in a footnote in one of his books that he had only 
seen one child who was not afraid of a loud sound. Well, that was our 
Barbara. She was home with her mother and father sitting in a playpen 
that she was accustomed to, and Watson's making a loud sound behind 
her back didn 1 t bother her. 

That doesn' t seem like a very valid observation then, does it? 

No. He had the theory that there were three basic emotions: one was 
fear; one was anger; one was love. We don't believe that any more. 



R. S. Woodworth's Seminar 



Riess: 



Jones; 



Riess: 
Jones: 

Riess; 
Jones; 



Riess; 



The seminars and classes that you and Harold took with Woodworth, 
large were they? 



how 



I'd say about a dozen people. Gardner Murphy was a member. The 
Gateses in education were there Arthur Gates, and Georgina. They 
were in that seminar the year before they were married, I believe. 
Harold and I were in the seminar before we were married and every year 
that we were at Columbia. Harold and I were not demonstrative in 
front of people, and the Gateses were, [laughter] Harold and I were 
amused that they should let people see how they were feeling about 
each other! 

After we got married I kept my maiden name for a while. We were 
married the first of September, 1920. Woodworth knew all about it. 
When we met for the seminar the first time, he looked at us and said, 
"I'm not sure how to introduce these two people." [laughs] The class 
responded with appropriate humor. 

Why did you keep your name? 

I was just that much of a feminist. I kept my name, I guess, until 
maybe Barbara was born. Then I decided I might as well take Harold's 
name. 

Were there great debates in those seminars? 

I wouldn't say there were great debates; but I will say that Woodworth 
was an excellent person for that seminar, because he was eclectic. We 
talked about Freud, and we talked about Watson, and we talked about 
the more conventional academic psychologists. 



In the memorial article on Harold, I 
went on camping trips together. 



read that Woodworth and Harold 



55 



Jones: Yea. They were more than just professional associates. It wasn't 
just a student-faculty relationship. 

Riess: But Woodworth didn't have that relationship with the other eleven peo 
ple in the seminar? 

Jones: No. 

Riess: Something about Harold, once again. 

Jones: As I told you, at Amherst he went walking with Robert Frost. Ap 
parently he had a way of relating easily and meaningfully with other 
people. 

Riess: I remember in the television program on B. F. Skinner and his psychol 
ogy, it showed him walking through the woods, and he said how impor 
tant nature was to him. I wonder what the connection is between the 
interest in nature and the interest in the development of the child. 

Jones: I haven't thought about that, but it seems to me to make sense. When 
Harold wrote letters to his parents, he wrote about flowers and how 
they differed, and how some birds were different and had different ha 
bits from the ones in Connecticut. He wrote a lot about the children 
and things they said and did and how they were growing. 



In Defense of Child Psychology 

Jones: Maybe this would be a place to read you a little bit that I found that 
Harold had written defending child psychology. [Jones leaves room; 
returns] I guess you'd say this was how he was describing the differ 
ence between the experimental psychologist and the child psychologist. 

[reads] "Developmental psychologists tend to be oriented toward 
problems of human behavior, social behavior, and individual differ 
ences, and personality theory. They have many contacts outside of 
psychology in the social sciences, education, psychiatry, and also in 
the biological sciences. Their interest in physical and physiological 
correlates of human behavior extends widely beyond the central nervous 
system to other organ systems." Which I thought was interesting. "The 
developmental psychologist deals with problems that are often of great 
immediate human concern, which at some points require exploratory ap 
proaches because of a more limited background of theory and method. 
As compared with the laboratory scientist, who has abundant and ever- 
present resources of white rats and college students, the developmen 
tal psychologist must sometimes range far afield in assembling sub 
jects and in collecting data. Because the problems with which the 
developmental psychologist deal are more likely at one point or anoth- 



56 



er to have an urgent practical significance, they may become branded 
as applied or service-oriented. It would be fairer to say that 
developmental psychology is equally concerned with basic research. 
Should they be penalized because there is a wide interest in what they 
are doing?" 

Riess : Interesting. It's very defensive, isn't it. 
Jones: Yes. It was written for that purpose. 

[reads] "Developmental psychology favors an undergraduate educa 
tion closely allied to the traditions of a liberal education, and a 
graduate training which will give greater options to the student in 
pursuing relevant interests in other social and biological sciences 
and great opportunity for research experience with human beings." 

Riess: When was that written? 

Jones: Nineteen-sixty . Just before he retired. And he died, you know, in 
Paris. This was in the Spring of that year. 

Riess: So there still was a need at that time to defend and explain it. 
Jones: Yes. There still is, if you read Lomax and Senn. 

Riess: At the time, incidentally, did you all call yourselves behavioralists? 
Or did you have those labels pinned to you? Or developmentalists, or 
anything like that? 

Jones: I don't think so. Developmental, yes. Not behavioralists particular 
ly. Life-Span Research is a current term. 



Mary Jones: "Peter" and Ph.D. Thesis 

Riess: I have not read any of your studies on "Peter" [experimental subject]. 

Jones: A lot of people come up and ask me what happened to Peter, and of 
course I don't know any more than Watson knows what happened to his 
Albert. I did go to see his mother after he left the Hecksher and be 
fore we came out here. I may have said somewhere that his mother had 
an approach which tended to frighten him. He wanted to go out when I 
was there visiting with her, and she said, "Don't go out, Peter, some 
body might get you." (Not Peter; that wasn't his name. But that's 
what I called him). 

Riess: How was Peter singled out? 



57 



Jones: Harold and I had a snake and some white rats and ' when the children 
were playing we took them in to see what the children would do with 
them. Peter was afraid of them. He was the most afraid, and so we 
took him for an experiment. Someone who met me recently said they 
couldn't imagine me handling these white rats and snakes. We kept the 
snake in a suitcase under our bed! [laughter] A great big snake. In 
fact, we used that snake in experiments with other children in other 
articles that we'd written. Harold and I wrote an article together 
about children's fears. 

Riess: Did that work that you did generate a lot of interest after you pub 
lished it? 

Jones: No. And as I've said in one of my papers, it wasn't acceptable for a 
Ph.D. thesis because there weren't enough cases. So what I did for my 
Ph.D. thesis was also something that Watson suggested: look at babies 
and see at what ages various functions developed. This was about the 
same time that Gesell was working on his cases. I went to well baby 
clinics in New York City, where mothers brought their well babies for 
check-ups, and tested to see at what age they could follow an object 
with eye movements of various kinds, at what age they could sit up, 
what age they could hold their heads up, and so forth. It was a prel 
iminary to the present intelligence tests for babies, motor and intel 
ligence tests. I had enough cases, a couple hundred. 

Riess: What kind of contact did you have with Gesell, then? 

Jones: We knew him; Senn asked that question. We went up there, and we 
thought we would have more contact with Gesell, but he came out of his 
office, shook hands with us, told us we could look around, and disap 
peared. 

Riess: Where was he? 

Jones: Yale. I knew Helen Thompson, who worked with him. She was a class 
mate of mine. So we made our contact through Helen Thompson. 

Riess: Does it amaze you now, from our point of view in 1980, that this kind 
of observation hadn't ever been really systematically carried out? 

Jones: Nancy Bayley's Mental Scale for the early years is well standardized 
and widely used. In the early days there were people who wrote baby 
biographies. There was one written by Millicent Shinn, here in 
California I believe she was the first woman to get a Ph.D. at U.C. 
She lived in Nyles. Millicent Shinn's, The Biography of a Baby [Bos 
ton: Houghton Mifflin, 1900], was about her niece, Lucy. She kept 
notes on all the babies in the family. A friend of mine, Virginia 
Woodson, has these notes. Then there were several Europeans who wrote 
biographies Pestalozzi. I'd read all of those. The Pentons wrote a 
book based on observations of one child. Darwin kept notes on his ba- 



58 



ties. And, cf course, Piaget observed his children, but that's more 
recent. 



Observing Mothers and Children 

Riess: In that first study you must have already seen a great range of 
development. Did you work with the doctors? 

Jones: No, I didn't, really. Well, in the Hecksher Foundation, I might talk 
to the nurse or to a visiting doctor about seme child that I thought 
might use a little something or other in the way of observation, or 
more freedom than he was having. 

I haven't mentioned another experience that Harold and I had just 
before we came cut here. There was a Mr. Harmon, a wealthy real 
estate man who had been ill, and his nurse Edith Burdick had one cf 
the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Fellowships. I met her through that. 
Well, Harmon felt that she had saved his life she'd nursed him when 
he was ill and he wanted to do something for her. She was interested 
in studying children, so Harmon bought a house and we lived there, 
Harold and I and both the girls, and Edith Burdick. We were set up as 
a what would they call it? foster home, where babies who were wait 
ing to go back to their parents or were up for adoption were cared 
for. 

Riess: Halfway or some kind of halfway house. 

Jones: Yes. We were there for a year, and that's when we were offered the 
job out here. 

Riess: From where were they referred? 

Jones: From the city department I've forgotten the name cf that department 
that would place children who needed to be placed. We had at one time 
as many as four children whom we observed and kept records on. 

Then we came cut here after a year, and left that with Edith Bur 
dick, and it finally folded. But that was another experience. 

Riess: After you have seen mobs cf babies do you still feel a kind of tug at 
your heartstrings? 

Jones: Yes. And I'd say the same thing is true with the children, now 
adults, whom we've been observing here in the longitudinal studies, 
like Millie whom you know. I'm very close to some of them. 

Riess: But you did have the satisfaction here cf being able to follow them. 












. 












59 



You didn' t with the others. 
Jones: Yes. 

Riess: I just wondered if you have to harden your hearts in some way when you 
do that kind of study. 

Jones: Yes. And then just leave them, and "what are the practical results?" 
Of course, that's still the question. You know we're getting cut 
another book at the Institute, from the last follow-up. [Present and 
Past _in Middle Life, Academic Press, 1982.] The last chapter in this 
bock is called "An Overview." We still have the question, "Do we know 
enough to give advice about how to raise children?" and "Which advice 
is going to hold up?" We all feel this, but Jean Macfarlane expresses 
it particularly. People who were so premising when they were young 
sters who haven't delivered, and the people who had problems when they 
were young and are now doing fairly well. Of course, one of the 
theories is that if you have to learn early to cope with things, you 
learn to cope. 

Riess: Isn't that what they found out in a lot of the creativity studies, 
tec? 

Jones: Yes. And we den' t like the notion that everything that happens to the 
children is due to their parents. You know, there's a phrase: "the 
schizophrencgenic mother." I think this is unfortunate, to think that 
a mother makes her child abnormal, it isn't all the poor mother's 
fault. Certainly it's nothing that she does purposely. I think this 
was Erikscn's point of view in his case cf "Jean" in Childhccd and So 
ciety. "Jean" is new middle-aged. Her mother and I are friends. 

Riess: You're probably having to conclude that a lot cf what you've done 
that's been most helpful is to be an extended family for people, and 
just a ventilating place. 

Jones: Yes. Jean Macfarlane' s study, the Guidance Study, had a group that 
were interviewed and a group that were net interviewed. The group 
that were interviewed were given some chance to talk about their prob 
lems, maybe a little advice. There have been fewer divorces in that 
group than in the centre 1 group. So apparently it does do something. 
That's one cf the criticisms of these studies, that we change people, 
sc how can we [laughs] generalize? 

Riess: The schizcphrencgenic psychologist also! [Jones laughs] What was 
Harold doing all of these years? 

Jones: He was teaching; and he was writing his thesis on Experimental Methods 
cf College Teaching. 

Riess: Did he interact with the children in the same way as you? 



60 



Jcnes: At the Hecksher Foundation, you mean? 
Riess: Yes. 

Jones: Not as much, no. He liked to take pictures of the groups of young 
sters. I can remember when they'd be up on the roof playing, he'd go 
up and talk to them, take pictures and that sort of thing. He was 
often with me when I was observing. But he spent more time on the 
Columbia campus. 



Moving On 

Married by Norman Thomas 

Riess: You were married by Norman Thomas. I want to back up a little bit. I 
asked you earlier whether you were religious, either of you. 

Jcnes: I don't think Harold was ever religious, although he had ministers in 
his background. I was religious. I went to Sunday School and joined 
the Lutheran Church. Was it Billy Sunday who was one of those 
evangelists? Someone came to Johnstown. We were dismissed from high 
school to go to hear him. Almost all of us "hit the trail," which 
meant you went up and promised whatever you promised when you hit the 
trail. You got this emotional feeling that what you wanted to do was 
the right thing, and that you belonged to God. Almost everybody in 
the class went up. I remember one boy who didn' t. Must have been 
hard on him. 

These things kind of wear off. However, I was religious. I went 
to YWCA summer camps. After my freshman year, I worked for the YWCA 
in Johnstown. In other words, I was still fairly religious. Then I 
took a course in philosophy my second year, and that was the end of my 
religious feelings and beliefs. I spoke to my philosophy teacher 
about this, and he asked me to come and talk to him, because I guess 
he didn't want to be responsible, [laughter] 

Riess: Would you tell me about that marriage service? 
Jones: I told you about how we met Norman Thomas. 
Riess: You met through your brother. 

Jones: Yes. The first of September was my birthday, and we decided to be 
married en my birthday. Norman Thomas invited us to come to his house 
to be married. It was their wedding anniversary, also, I believe. 
Then he called up maybe a day or two ahead of time and said, "We're 
moving on the first, so how about coming to my office?" 



61 



So we went to his office. I had an uncle from Johnstown who used 
to go to New York on business. He made it a point to go at that time 
to New York because he knew I was going to be married and wanted to 
come to the wedding. e called at his hotel and left word that we 
were not going to be married at Norman Thomas's house, but at his of 
fice. He get the message that I was going to be married to Norman 
Thomas, [laughter] Anyhow, he missed the wedding. He was always sor 
ry about that. My brother and sister came as witnesses. I have the 
beck that Norman Thomas gave us. He gave us this bock and he said, 
"You can use as much of this service or as little as you want, or you 
can choose your own service, but there are certain phrases that are 
required for it to be legal." So we said, "Let's have those." And that 
was it. 

He gave us this book, and he forgot to sign it. So years later I 
sent it back to him. He apologized for not having signed it. The 
marriage already, of course, was legal. But he hadn't signed this 
bock. Then when Harold died I wrote him, and he wrote me this nice 
little letter, which I appreciated, saying that he had gone through 
this same experience of having a good marriage and experiencing the 
less of his partner. 

Riess: Why didn't you get married at home? 

Jones: We were a little unconventional. We thought of being married at home. 
I went home and was planning it, but we wanted to be married on my 
birthday, and Harold had a job testing children and assigning them to 
various institutions and homes and so forth. It was just hard for him 
to get away at that time, so we just decided to skip it. I remember 
my mcther and father were disappointed; and someone said to my father, 
"She's saving you a let of money. You should accept this." [laughs] 

Riess: So your mcther and father didn't come to the wedding. 
Jones: No, just my brother and sister. 
Riess: What did you wear? 

Jones: I was looking in the mirror, and I said to my sister, "Should I wash 

my face?" She said, "If I were going to be married, I'd wash my face." 

I washed it. I remember a silk suit; it wasn't anything new or spe 
cial. 

Then we went on a trip up the Hudson en a steamboat. 



62 



Motivations, Inner and Outer Drives 

Riess: In your interview with Deana, you say it's the outer pressures of life 
that have motivated you, rather than an inner need to do something. 
What made Harold tick? Was it an inner need? 

Jones: I would say that in both cases the motivation was inner but the direc 
tion it took depended upon outer circumstances. In Harold's case I 
think part of it was a masculine-cultural kind of thing. Men were 
supposed to achieve, and I think Harold had that orientation. 

Riess: But would you call that an inner need? 
Jones: Inner? 
Riess : Yes . 

Jones: No, I wouldn't. That's a cultural need. But, I'm sure he had an 
inner, a motivation, need to achieve. 

Riess: Are you saying that in a vacuum you probably wouldn't have done any 
thing? 

Jones: No, [laughing] I don't think I would say that. Obviously, I wouldn't 
have kept on as Icng as I did, if there hadn't been something inside. 
I think this was due to my father and brother my father who was very 
pleased with anything I accomplished, and my brother who set an exam 
ple. Yes, there was motivation there, certainly. I think in Harold's 
case, there was much more directed motivation. He started at Mas 
sachusetts Agricultural College. I think it was his mother who en 
couraged him to transfer to Amherst where he got more of a liberal 
education and could move in the direction of a professional career. 

Riess: Well, then maybe there is no such thing, really, as inner need, be 
cause it sounds like in both cases you're talking about other people's 
expectations. 

Jones: Yes. Well, you want to meet other people's expectations. Sure, 
there's a good feeling about getting somewhere, and accomplishing 
something. Senn asked me if I would have gone into therapy if I had 
stayed in New York and worked with Watson. I told him yes. But now, 
as I think of it, I'm not sure I would have. I don't think I would 
have been suited to that. 

Riess: Who was going into that at the time? 

Jones: Very few people. Senn has a chapter on the relation of pediatricians 
to child development, and also psychiatrists. There were very few, 
either pediatricians or psychiatrists, who were working with the 



"whole" child, or who felt it was essential to work with children from 
the child development point of view. 

As laboratory psychologists tend to feel that developmental 
psychology isn't really as scientific, I think that maybe pediatri 
cians and psychiatrists felt that working with the "whole" child was 
not as scientific or professional as working in a specific discipline. 
And, of course, there are still arguments as to whether psychologists 
should have state certification for practice as psychiatrists do. In 
some states they do; in some states they don't. 



Teachers and Parents 



Riess: You published early in Parent-Teacher Magazine. Were teachers in 
terested in your work? 

Jones: I hope so. Child development and progressive education were closely 
associated. I took courses at Teachers College with Dewey and Kilpa- 
trick, innovators in education. They encouraged teachers to think of 
children as individuals who could profit by educational opportunities 
planned to meet their needs. It was expected that parent education 
and preschool programs would develop within the public school system. 

The program in child study and parent education in California was 
financed by the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial in 1921 when Her 
bert Stolz was in the State Department of Education. But the insti 
tutes were set up to function independently of academic departments. 

At the Institute I worked with parents who were going to be 
leaders of parent groups. Herbert Stclz was in charge of that en 
deavor. I also worked in the nursery school on research projects. 
Language development was one of cur areas. Sidney Adams, a student, 
wrote his Ph.D. thesis and published on children's language develop 
ment. I talked to various teachers' groups, lots of them. But I 
haven't worked specifically with teachers in the schools, except with 
cur longitudinal samples; we get the Oakland Growth Study group first 
in the fifth grade, and we knew and cooperated with those teachers. 

Some teachers were interested in cur research. Sometimes they 
talked to us about special problems, and we'd talk to them about the 
children in cur sample. Our group went to Claremcnt Junior High, 
which was a somewhat experimental school associated with the Universi 
ty Education Department. The University used it's classes for prac 
tice teaching and observation. The vice-principal, Helen Hunt, was 
associated both with the University and with the junior high school. 
You could call it a "progressive" school. And the same was true of 
University High School. They were really experimental schools. 



64 



In the case of the Oakland group, originally called the Adoles 
cent Growth Study, we had a counselor, Judith Chaffey, who was the 
children's counselor from the fifth grade on through high school. She 
also visited the parents. I visited the homes, too. She was on our 

staff. 

As late as 1956, Harold wrote in a report to the Division of Edu 
cational Psychology of the American Psychological Association that 
closer association was needed between universities and school systems. 



Comments on Larry Frank 

Riess: Please describe Larry Frank and your meeting with him. 

Jones: I was taking a course at Teacher's College in the summer. I heard 
that Larry Frank wanted to meet students. I went and met with him. 
There were several other women. He told us about these fellowships. 
I was quite excited. These fellowships (they paid something) would 
probably support me. And I would be enabled to take courses in medi 
cal school, in nutrition at Teacher's College and psychology. I 
talked to Woodworth about it. (Voodworth was my advisor in psycholo 
gy. ) He thought it was a good idea. So I applied for a fellowship. 

Riess: Larry Frank what was his background? 

Jones: He got his degree in economics. He was a foundations administrator. 

Riess: Was he just an administrator? 

Jones: Yes, he was an administrator for the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Fund. 

Riess: Who was the real mind behind the fund and what it should accomplish? 

Jones: Larry was it. The director of the memorial fund was Beardsley Ruml. 
But Larry was the real energetic person with a wealth of ideas whom we 
knew best. 

Riess: I wondered who he might have talked to, though, to sort of conceptual 
ize what could be done in the field. 

Jones: By the time I knew him, his ideas about child development were prolif 
ic. 

Riess: Was there any attempt to put all of the people who were recipients of 
the money together, to talk, to confer? 



65 



Jones: No. I certainly met a number of them, because we were in classes to 
gether. One was Edna Bailey from here, who went back to New York City 
for a year on a fellowship. ;May Reynolds Sherwin, a Vassar graduate 
went back to teach at Vassar. We were close friends. 

Riess: But you were all people who were working in child development. 

Jones: Yes. I was in psychology; some of them were in nutrition and other 
fields too. 

Riess: Was Larry Frank a particularly good administrator? 

Jones: He was an extremely energetic person. He got everybody enthusiastic 
about things. He had a natural warmth. I remember once he came out 
here, and my girls had heard us talking about the fact that he was 
coming out, and would be deciding whether to give the Institute more 
money. I was putting the girls to bed my bedrooms were downstairs 
and Larry came down to say goodnight to them. Lesley must have said 
something to him about whether he was going to give us some money. He 
was quite amused, and he reassured her that it was going to be okay, 
[laughter] 

Riess: Was he a contemporary? 

Jones: He was about our age. He lived until maybe five years ago, I'd say. 
He lost two wives by death, and had a third wife when he died. I've 
met all of them. 

Riess: Did you know the Stolzes in New York? 

Jones: I knew Lois in New York, yes. She was then Lois Hayden Meek, a gradu 
ate student at Teachers College, Columbia. 

Riess: Was that also instrumental in getting you out here? 

Jones: No. It was due to Larry Frank entirely. Well, maybe Woodworth also, 
because I'm sure that when the job was offered he advised us to take 
it. He was interested. In fact, he was one of the people in the Na 
tional Science Foundation who established a child development section. 
He was always interested, although he didn't work in the field. He's 
one of the people who is always thought of as developing and promoting 
child development. 

Riess: Did that make a difference in validating it? 

Jones: Yes, I would say so. Harold, for example as you see, there weren't 
very many men in this field. If Woodworth thought this was the thing 
to do, I'm sure it influenced Harold. Of course, the heads of all 
these institutions were men. However, I think it was Anderson at Min 
nesota who said to Harold something to the effect that there were an 



66 



awful lot of women in this field. 



A Home in Berkeley 



Riess: Was coming to California a hard thing, to leave the East and family? 

Jones: No, I think we were glad to. We had a pediatrician, of course, for 
our children, and we talked to him about what he thought of our moving 
to California. And he said, "Unless you have (l guess it was) $10,000 
a year, it's very hard to live in New York City." Well, we didn't have 
$10,000 a year, and it was cheaper out here. And, you know, Califor 
nia sounded good. We were a little sorry to leave our families, and 
that sort of thing. But, no, we were happy about coming out. I 
remember Harold's mother had heard that it was very foggy out here. 
She wanted to make sure we had good, warm underwear for the children, 
[laughter] 

Riess: Over the years did you keep up relations with people in the East assi 
duously? 

Jones: We did, yes. Some of Harold's Amherst friends, my Vassar friends, 
Columbia associates visited and corresponded. But we realized that 
being in the West had some isolating features. We didn't go to as 
many meetings. 

Riess: Professionally isolating? 

Jones: Yes. Harold went to some, but probably not as many as though we'd 
been in the East. Now, Nancy Bayley, for example, who was here for 
many years, her husband took a position at Johns Hopkins and she went 
back to Washington, D. C. as chief of the Division of Child Development 
of the National Institute of Mental Health. She said she never was 
anybody until she got to Washington and met the right people. This 
isn't a direct quote, but she had the feeling that the East was the 
place to be if you wanted to be recognized. 

Riess: Particularly because she was a woman in the field? 
Jones: I think just in general. 

Riess: You were leaving your extended family. Do you feel that an extended 
family is a benefit to bringing up children? 

Jones: Really, you see, we were in New York; my family was in Pennsylvania; 
Harold's was in Connecticut. We hoped we could continue our visits 
back and forth. I'm sure they were terribly sorry to have us leave, 
more sorry than we were to be leaving. 



67 



Riess: When you came to Berkeley, what was your first community of really 
good friends. 

Jones: I'd say some of our professional people, like Jean Macfarlane, Nancy 
Bayley, and Edgell and Herbert Stolz. Two families whom we knew be 
cause the women were parent education leaders, like myself: Margaret 
and Ralph Fisher, Josephine and Allen Blaisdell were friends. Allen 
was head of International House. 

Riess: Were they also raising small children? 

Jones: The Stolzes had a child, Rosemary, just about the age of our children. 
The Fishers had three, the Blaisdells two. Somewhere I was reading 
that the University during the depression carved back funds at the In 
stitute. The Laura Spelman Rockefeller people weren't sure they want 
ed to contribute if the University wasn't going to hold up its end. 
Sproul was one of the people who was interested in keeping the Insti 
tute going. His son John went to the nursery school. So, fortunate 
ly, he was interested in our Institute. 

Riess: How did you care for your children when you were working? 

Jones: I had full-time help, which took care of the home aspects, domestic 
aspects. I can remember I got home I never worked full-time, you 
know and I'd be home, either pick the children up or be at home when 
they got here from school. I can remember one day Herbert Stolz came 
in, and I was sitting here reading to the children about three o'clock 
in the afternoon. He said he thought I was a good mother; a lot of 
mothers he knew would be out shopping, and I was making some effort to 
be with my children when I could. 

Riess: A lot of psychologists are blind to their problems at home and excel 
lent out in the field. I just wondered if there were ever any of 
those kinds of pitfalls in your life. 

Jones: There probably were. I can remember my older girl said one time she 
hoped she didn't have to work when she grew up. She must have felt 
that my working wasn't exactly a pleasure to her. 

Riess: In raising the children, were they left to you, or both of you? 

Jones: I would say Harold was much more of a raising father than most fathers 
at that period. He'd put them to bed, and feed them, and read to 
them, and had all sorts of little games with them. Took them out a 
lot on walks. 

Riess: Did the two of you experiment on your children? 

Jones: Once I used Barbara for a learning experience, which required feeding 
her raisins as a reward. I can't remember anything, except this one 



68 



little experiment with Barbara. 

[tape interruption] I think I left the impression that I had been 
somewhat disadvantaged by going to Vassar, where there were a lot of 
people with more status. I thought I should have added that I did 
have a couple of student committee appointments, and in one case I was 
in charge of an occupational conference. We had people come to speak 
about opportunities and professions that were available to women. I 
did do some things on a leadership level. And Vassar, a woman's col 
lege then, added measurably to my background and my self-esteem. 

Riess: You felt that you left the impression that you were "poor Mary." 
Jones: Yes, but I didn't do too badly. 



68a 



Human Development Research 

Landmark Project Marks Half Century 

BERKELEY Three hun- families and public agencies 
dred California are celebrat- make informed decisions about 
ing an unusual anniversary this raising children, 
year a half century of shar- But as the -participants ma- 
ing their lives with 'science. tured and grew, so did the 

From childhood to middle studies. "With time, the scope 

age, they have been observed, has grown to help adults of all 

tested, measured, weighed, in- ages make good social, voca- 

teryiewed and made the sub- tional ( and personal adjust- 

jects of both short and long- ments," says Eichom. 

term studies. Some 500 research reports 

The 300 are the original par- have been produced on topics 

ticipants in a landmark re- ^ diverse as the development 

search project at the Univer- o f e g O> the effects of the de- 

sity of California at Berkeley's pression years on children, 

Institute of Human Develop- marital happiness and patterns 

ment. The UC research is the f or j o b and health changes, 

first to study systematically This year ^e Institute and 

such a large number of people i{J p art i c ip an ts are celebrating 

for as long as 50 years. ^ eiT unusu al 50-year union 

The work was begun in 1928 w - th an ^ niveTS3ir ^ lecture se 
as a study of the normal stages ^ and a ngw book Qn midd]e 
of human growth and develop- 

3 E ' Sh? IS: s m boov, ? r -^ 

hom, explains that the project fri Midlife, is scheduled for 

was initiated in order to help publication in early 19/9. 



69 



4. THE LONGITUDINAL STUDIES 
[interview 4: February 2, 1982] 

Getting Started 

Riess: We're talking about the longitudinal studies. When did that word 
first cross anybody's lips? 

Jones: I think it must have been Larry Frank who was the executive secretary 
of the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Fund. Certainly he agreed that we 
should be studying people over time. 

Riess: Had it been done before? 

Jones: Yes, [Lewis M. ] Terman had a study of gifted children. I don't think 
he called it longitudinal and I don't think he knew, when he started, 
it was going to be as longitudinal as it was. It's still going on. 
Robert Sears was one of the subjects and then he became a director. 
Harold consulted Terman and Terman sent him graduate students, Harold 
Carter and Mildred Earley (later Conrad), to work at the Institute. 

Riess: Larry Frank got the idea in talking with people like Harold or Stolz? 

Jones: No, I think he had the idea before he came out here to set up the In 
stitute. 

Riess: I wondered whether the idea of longitudinal studies had evolved out of 
the work that was being done. 

Jones: I would say it did. We needed research to tell us more about chil 
dren. Then after we got going we realized we needed to watch the same 
people over time. 

Riess: So there was a kind of newness to it. 
Jones: Yes, I would say so. 



70 



Riess: When the nursery school was started, how did it fit into the whole 
proposal? 

Jones: This was a national movement to begin studying and teaching children, 
before they got to public school age, before five. It was important 
to know what was happening to them in the earlier years. Then also, 
the Second World War brought the need for child care. 

Riess: Looking at the Institute of Child Welfare bulletins, the first bul 
letin [Parents Bulletin No. 1 ] that came out was a description of the 
nursery school. The second bulletin, unlike the first one, which is 
all pictures of children and descriptions of when they have their 
juice and everything, the second one is a description of the studies 
that have begun and I wondered what happened between bulletin one and 
bulletin two. In other words, what was the process? You came out 
here and a nursery school somehow began, and then suddenly a whole lot 
of people were doing research. 

Jones: Nancy Bayley was brought in to study children, their motor abilities, 
mental abilities, and their relationships, parent and child. The nur 
sery school was an essential part of the research program. It took 
longer to get the other research projects going. Harold brought in 
Jean Macfarlane to start a study of normal children. As she says, she 
had been working with problem children, but what were normal, how many 
problems did normal children have, and why shouldn't we look at normal 
children? They've concentrated a good deal on interviewing the 
parents about their parent-child and faaily relationships. Actually 
Jean was instrumental in getting the Institute at Berkeley. She knew 
Larry Frank in the East, roomed with his sister-in-law Elizabeth 
Bryant in Boston, stayed with the Franks when she was in New York. I 
believe Larry's first contacts with the University were through Jean. 

After we got going I think I've told you this Larry Frank said 
it's going to take too long to get to adolescents let's start with a 
pre-adolescent group. So we started the Adolescent Growth Study, (now 
the Oakland Growth Study). We started with ten-year-olds. Our group, 
the Oakland Growth Study people are about eight years older than the 
Guidance and Berkeley Growth Study people. 

Riess: It's interesting for you to say, "and Larry Frank told us that we 
should do this." Who makes these decisions and how, that's what I'm 
really trying to get at. In the studies that you're responsible for, 
did you decide the areas you wanted to work in? 

Jones: Yes, one of the things I worked on first was the rate of maturing and 
how this affected people. Harold said, "Look, Nancy Bayley 's doing 
x-rays of the wrists to get a skeletal age for these people, and 
you're observing them in school and in social situations and seeing 
what happens as they go through puberty. It would be interesting for 
you and Nancy to work together on this." So the first article that 



71 



came out on early and late maturing was Nancy's and mine. 

Then I went on with that all the way through their growth until 
they were adults. Paul Mussen and I published several joint articles. 
My last article was based on my presidential address to Division 7 of 
the American Psychological Association. [The later careers of boys 
who were early- or late-maturing. Child Development, 1957, 28, 113- 
128.] 

When we were planning our latest book, Present and Past in Middle 
Life, I wanted to write again on personality as related to early or 
late maturing, but the editors said, "There'll be other books, you can 
do it later. [Both laugh] Better do the one on drinking." 

Riess: How often did you refer back to Larry Frank? When Harold, and Herbert 
Stolz, had new ideas for research or anything, did they check them out 
with Larry Frank? 

Jones: Not necessarily, but he often came out with ideas. I'm sure you've 
heard this story. When Frank first came and talked to President Camp 
bell, an astronomer, he wasn't sure he was interested in starting an 
institute. According to Jean Macfarlane, Frank said to Campbell, "All 
right, I'll go down to Stanford." That made the decision, because Cal 
wasn't going to let Stanford get the money, [laughter] 



The Nursery School 

Riess: You mentioned that there was that monthly meeting with parents and 
teachers. 

Jones: I knew Herbert through that. It was through Herbert that I got the 
job. He wanted me to be a research associate and he's always been 
very supportive of me. 

Riess: If it weren't for that fact, what would your role have been, do you 
think? 

Jones: Well, you see, before we came Harold said, "I will consider it if 
there's going to be a job for Mary." [President William Wallace] Camp 
bell came to our house in New York and talked to us. He said there 
would be a job, but all there was at first was just this parent educa 
tion connection. That's all I did the first year. Then when the nur 
sery school got settled, they brought in a head nursery school teach 
er, but I was doing quite a bit of research in the nursery school. It 
was Herbert who got me an appointment as research associate. When 
Harold died, Herbert said, "I think they should put you in as 
director" which of course never happened. But I just wanted to tell 



72 



you that Herbert was always supportive of me. 

Riess: In the first bulletin it stated that the aims of the nursery school 
were first of all, the welfare of children; secondly, a lab for the 
study of child development by experts; third, to collect information 
on child training for use in parent education; and fourth, to offer 
the University students an opportunity for directed observation. 

That's been consistently the direction? 

Jones: Yes. The research is quite extensive right now. Here, Fall of 1981 
[reading off of a calendar/brochure], this indicates the people who 
are doing research in the Institute Nursery School. The departments 
involved were psychology, sociology, education, men's and women's phy 
sical education and the medical school. 

Riess: What kind of people brought their children when they heard that there 
was a full day nursery school? 

Jones: There were a lot of faculty, and I have said somewhere that the 
Sproul's younger son John was one of the children in an early group. 
My daughter was there. The secretary of the psychology department, 
Mrs. Tooley, had her little boy Bill there. Bill has become a physi 
cian, and he has been one of the physicians who has examined the study 
members as they come back for physicals. 

Riess: A very close tie all the way around. So University people would have 
heard about this first, probably, anyway. 

Jones: Yes, and there may have been notices in the paper. I would say they 

were people who were kind of in the upper strata, who were in parent 

education or that sort of thing. In other words it wasn't like the 

child care centers, where children were brought so that mothers could 
go to work. 

Riess: Did that mean then that there was a high degree of parent involvement? 

Jones: Yes, but this was not a cooperative nursery school. The parents 

didn't help in the nursery school, but there were meetings at least 

once a month. There were interviews with parents and that sort of 
thing. 

Riess: I noticed, for instance, in the description of the LeConte home, where 
the nursery school was first housed, that parents could observe from 
cloisters. I was interested in whether the practice of observing your 
children was something that the parents did a lot of. 

Jones: No, I don't remember that they did a great deal of observing, but they 
could if they wanted to. 



Riess: Nursery schools are often the first place where parents really begin a 
kind of social life of their own, in some nursery school situations. 
I just wondered how this nursery school functioned in that way. 

Jones: Well, probably not as much as in a cooperative nursery school for ex 
ample. 

Riess: What is this little conditioning thing of "hang up your coat, go to 
the potty and have a glass of water?" 

Jones: Is this in the report? 

Riess: Yes, they said that that's the day's routine. It was rather nice the 
way they presented it, but I wondered what school of thinking that 
was? 

Jones: Actually the first thing they did was to be sure the children didn't 
have colds. 

Well, I think this was just the way we started nursery schools in 
the East and it was a pattern that went across the country. 

Riess: A year later, when the numerous projects were under way, who was actu 
ally administering the whole thing at that point? Was it Harold or 
was it Herbert? 

Jones: Both. Harold got Nancy Bayley here and Herbert Conrad, for example. 

Riess: Who did people go to, to talk about their work, for instance? I mean 
if Nancy wanted to talk to somebody about her work, about what kind of 
data she was getting, and confer with somebody. 

Jones: It would depend upon what you talked about. Dr. Stolz was the physi 
cian, and if she'd wanted to talk about medical things, she would have 
gone to Herbert Stolz. I think if she wanted to talk about the meas 
urement of abilities, she would have talked to Harold. 

Riess: They were both there full time? 

Jones: I don't know whether Herbert was there full time, I think he continued 
part-time with the State Department of Education. Harold was part- 
time teaching, in the psychology department. 



Cooperating with Other Departments 

Riess: I noticed also in the very early days there was a lot of interdepart 
mental stuff, cooperative studies with the Department of Hygiene, and 



74 



so on. Who would initiate that? 

Jones: If it was in psychology, Harold would have been the person who made 
the association. If it was public health, it would have been Herbert. 
They worked together. I really am not quite sure how the administra 
tive job was divided. But I would say it was partly on the basis of 
the disciplines. Herbert's book, that he and Lois wrote, is on physi 
cal development. [Somatic Development of Boys. New York: Macmillan, 
1951.] 

Riess: What I'm wondering is, were you adding research staff each time you 

worked with another department? Think of nutritional research, the 

Department of Household Science. Did Agnes Faye Morgan come and use 
the Institute as a place for her research? 

Jones: Yes, and brought in students. Of course Catherine Landreth, director 
of the nursery school, came in through the Department of Home Econom 
ics. The Education Department wanted me to teach a course in nursery 
school education and Agnes Faye Morgan felt that Landreth 1 s course was 
covering that, and that there shouldn't be another one. She had an 
influential part in the program. 

Riess: There was such a web; you could hardly jettison the Institute because 
it had so many connections. 

Jones: This is still very important. The new director, Ed Swanson, is par 
ticularly interested in involving departments, and the University 
feels that this is important. 



Academic Appointments and Tenure 

Jones: As I have often said, I'm sure, you can't get tenure through just an 
appointment at the Institute. You have to get your tenure through 
academic departments. So one of the great problems of our Institute 
is to keep people who aren't on the ladder in departments. 

Nathan Shock, when he was brought here, taught in the Physiology 
Department. But I think there was a question of tenure. The same 
with Herbert Conrad; he taught in the Education Department. Both men 
went on to important positions with the federal government. 

Riess: Do you think that the reason they didn't get tenure was because so 
much of their time was Institute-related that they couldn't do what 
was required in their department? 

Jones: In my case I was offered a position in the Education Department only 
if I would take it full time. The dean implied that he wanted to be 



75 



sure my commitment was to the Department of Education. Now Harold 
Carter, on the other hand, who was doing work with us, got tenure in 
the Education Department and stayed. Apparently they needed someone 
with his background at the time. I couldn't get a teaching position 
until way into the '50s. I went in after Edna Bailey retired. They 
offered me a job, and I didn't want full time. They wouldn't take me 
until I would sign up for full time. 



Twins, Fears, Colds, Birth order 



Riess: Harold was involved with twin studies. Tell me about his twin stu 
dies. 

Jones: I remember especially that he worked with Paul Wilson, who was a gra 
duate student and who got his degree, I think, on a twin project. 
Harold Carter was also working on a twin project. Harold published 
with them on twin studies, but I think he directed or supervised rath 
er than actually doing the data collection. 

Riess: How did he begin? 

Jones: Well, if they were people who came into the Institute, if they were 
twins who came in, he saw them. But a lot of these twins, of course, 
were not in the Institute then. Of course the difference between 
identical and fraternal twins was important. In fact my son-in-law, 
Kenneth Coates, who is a fraternal twin, was surveyed but they're not 
as interesting as identical twins, [laughter] only as comparisons. 

Riess: People are still doing things with twins that have been separated at 
birth and brought up in various parts of the country. 

Jones: I'm sure they were all familiar with the literature too, and there's 
quite a bit of literature on twins. 

Riess: I see you continued to do studies of fear. You and Harold had pub 
lished something on fear in CAL Monthly in 1930. 

Jones: Yes, but that was based on research we did back East. 
Riess: You did a study of colds. 
Jones: Yes, with Herbert Conrad. 

Riess: Do you remember anything about that data, because of course that's 
very interesting, I think. 

Jones: The general conclusion was that especially because of the cyclical na- 



76 



ture of our data, colds were due to infection. We gave some 
recommendations isolation, wash toys, etc. 

Riess: That would have been observations in the nursery school? 

Jones: Yes, that would be the nursery school and also in the Childrens' Com 
munity Nursery School, a cooperative in Berkeley. 

Riess: I wonder if you can remember anything about this Chinese gentleman, 
Mr. Hsiao who studied birth order? He appeared to be trying to prove 
something about firstborn and I.Q. 

Jones: Let me get you something, [gets scroll] This tells about him. He was 
a fellow of the China Foundation for the Promotion of Education and 
Culture, and his publication was "The Status of the Firstborn with 
Special Reference to Intelligence." Yes, he was a good friend of ours. 

[ Jones is talking from another part of the room, where she had 
been reading from the scroll, and then takes out something else.] I 
have another little thing he gave us. Isn't that lovely? He went 
back to China and he sent us these things after he got back and Harold 
was in touch with him. Then the revolution came along and we never 
heard from him again. We thought he'd been liquidated, but just last 
year there was a Chinese, Professor Ching, over here from Peking 
University. I met him at Paul Mussen's house and asked him if he knew 
anything about Hsiao. He said that Hsiao continued to live he's dead 
now and that he introduced Gestalt psychology into China, [laughter] 
This is the latest I've heard about Hsiao. 

Riess: Of course it's wonderful to think he had all of this data 'in the late 
'20s, and that China now is rewarding people for only having one 
child, and they can always cite his studies at the Institute. Did 
anyone else work in that field? 

Jones: Nancy Bayley was interested in birth order, and Jean Macfarlane has 
some data on birth order. His interest was more especially on intel 
ligence, and there are also personality differences that have been re 
ported. There is other data. 

Riess: The very idea of coming with that bias of looking for a greater degree 
of intelligence. 

Jones: I'm not sure that he came with the idea. It may have been that Harold 
suggested it, I don't know. 



77 



Interviewing 

Riess: Some research at the Institute must have been more "scientific" than 
other. Was that important? 

Jones: I think of Harold and Nathan Shock first as persons who concentrated 
on psycho-physiological studies. 

Riess: Maybe the farthest away from Nathan Shock and Harold would be the peo 
ple who did personal interviews. 

Jones: Clinical interviews, yes, and observations. Of course some scientists 
think this is not scientific. There's always been this feeling about 
just observing people and asking them questions and so forth. Then 
the whole business of questionnaires now we did a lot of that in the 
Oakland Growth Study, because they were all in the same school and we 
could get group tests in the classrooms. It was not done to anything 
like the same extent in the Guidance Study. They did get reputation 
measures. That is, they had pupils write down who was like this or 
that, rating each other in the classroom. For example: Here is some 
one who likes to talk a lot, always has something to say; or, someone 
whom everybody likes, others are glad to have him around. This was 
done for the Guidance Study and also for the Oakland Growth Study. 

Now it also depends upon whether it's a psychologist or a sociol 
ogist, to some extent. John Clausen, sociologist, sends out question 
naires on smoking, occupation, etc. You'll see in this latest book 
John Clausen's chapter. He bases a good deal of the findings on ques 
tionnaires. 

For this last program we send out questionnaires and get answers 
in addition to personal interviews. We try to limit the follow-up 
visit to a one-day program. Even that's a very heavy program, nine to 
five. 

Riess: What's your own personal style when you're working, interviewing and 
note taking? 

Jones: I can observe. I think I'm a pretty good observer, because I've had a 

lot of experience, watching children in groups and then describing 

behavior and rating them afterwards. I've used the results from ques 
tionnaires. 

I was going to ask if you were interested in these findings from 
when they were young people, their attitudes toward various things 
smoking, drinking, appearance, use of lipstick and so forth. I've 
written this up with examples of how they behave. I've written but 
not published one article called, "In the Eye of the Beholder", which 
has to do with their getting their first permanents and using lipstick 



78 



for the first time. This is tied in with a questionnaire that asked 
them about their attitudes toward these issues. 

One important approach has been Jack Block's Q-sort. [Block, J. 
The Q-sort Method _in Personality Assessment and Psychiatric Research. 
Springfield, 111.: Charles C. Thomas, 1961.] Clinicians read the 
voluminous background data and then rate these people on these hundred 
items on the Q-sort. That's the way it's used now. Jack doesn't have 
a chapter in the book, but a lot of people who worked with the Q-sort 
have referred to it, for example [Flo] Livson and [Harvey] Peskin's 
and my chapters. 

Riess: When you first went into a situation and were taking notes and inter 
viewing and so on, how did you figure a style? Was that something you 
learned in your seminars with Woodworth, or from your peers? 

Jones: Now in the nursery school, Herbert Conrad was here, and he made out a 
rating scale to use in observing in the nursery school. We used the 
same sort of thing. Caroline Tryon was on our staff, she'd written a 
monograph on the adolescent peer group. She and Harold worked out a 
questionnaire and rating scale which we used during the school years. 

Riess: What about room for your own very personal opinions about something, 
above and beyond? 

Jones: After we rated, we wrote personal statements. 
Riess: How is that accessible? 

Jones: That's all part of what the clinicians read and rate. When we went on 
excursions with this group, the staff got together afterwards and we'd 
concentrate on one person. Each staff person would say what they had 
seen that person doing and that was all written down. That's all in 
the records, but unfortunately it has to be translated into ratings in 
order to be made into data. 

That's one of the other things, you see: we have to be very care 
ful about individual descriptions. In my chapter on drinking I have 
quoted, to some extent, from what people have said. I've been very 
careful to quote people who are dead, mostly. This is what you have 
to be very careful about. 

We would love to do more case histories, I think they're the most 
important part of this program. But it's just practically impossible. 
In fact everybody who comes in now signs something, saying that his 
data can be used. But a person might say this year that it's all 
right to use this , and a year from now he might change his mind , and 
it could be a problem. We are talking now about the possibility of 
using some case material, and using the person himself to be a co 
author. In other words, we would like to use some more personal and 



79 



individual material. 

I think I mentioned that at the last reunion some of them felt 
that they would like to have more input. On our questionnaires we 
have asked: Is there anything special that you would like us to in 
clude in the interviews which are coming up? Some of them made 
suggestions of certain subjects that they'd like to discuss. 



The "Lunch Study" 

Riess : In a symposium in 1969 you included some of the subjects on stage, 
talking about themselves. How did that work and how did you decide 
which ones? 

Jones: The man I chose is a pediatrician. I thought he was the kind of per 
son who was identified with the study, who knew what it was about and 
would be able to present this in a talk. He's just been in for the 
follow-up, this man. (Maybe this is a diversion, but I have lunch 
with them [the sixty year old Growth Study members]). He's been in 
recently and he asks me questions about Harold, about Nathan Shock, 
Herbert Stolz, and Judith Chaffey. This is good stuff and I write it 
down, you see, afterwards. I write down what they've talked about and 
whom they've mentioned and how many of the other study members they've 
mentioned and how interested they are in what we're doing, and where 
they fit in. 

Riess: So, you see whether they mention anyone, then which people are impor 
tant to them. 

Jones: Which people in the study they remember. Some of them remember a 
dozen or more and some don't remember more than one or two. This 
tells you a good deal about them, you see. Then I get to see them as 
couples. Now there's a chapter in the book on marriage, and one of 
the things the author Skolnick says is that they talk to these people 
separately. They don't observe couples together. Well, I only ob 
serve them during the noon hour, but I do get a little feeling of 
their relationship to each other as couples. I write this up and I 
hope this is going to add something. 

For example, one couple who came in, he's retired and this is 
true of many retired couples that I know who are not in the study and 
she uses the telephone and he's at home all the time and it annoys 
him. And he told me this. "Now what are they going to do about it?" I 
said, "I know another couple who had this problem and they got 
separate phones." He said, "Well, we could get an extension, we could 
put an extension upstairs." [laughter] This kind of thing. 



80 



One husband also told me I knew this that Herbert Stolz had 
sent the men their nude pictures. Pictures were taken of the boys in 
the nude every six months in adolescence. They were sent copies of 
these pictures later in life. This man said to me, "I have never 
shown my wife these pictures of me in the nude." This tells you some 
thing, doesn't it? 

Riess : Maybe you don't know what it tells you, but it tells you something. 

Jones: At least I write it down. You see, I try to avoid anything that I 
think the interviewers are getting. They have two interviews during 
this day. One is called a structured interview, which talks about 
their jobs and their children. The other is a clinical interview, 
which is more personal. Then they have lots of tests. I try not to 
cover that sort of thing, mine's all spontaneous. 

Riess: So yours is just taking care of the relational part of the whole 
study? 

Jones: Public relations is what I hope I do. [laughs] I am now the one to 
give them their copy of the book. Some ask me to autograph them. 
Then I write a short note of appreciation to them. 

Riess: I don't mean just, but 

Jones: Yes, but that's what I'm doing. But I think I do get a little data 
out of it. I must tell you I haven't written up, but I decided I 
should, which of the people embrace me, the men and the women. It's 
their pattern, it hasn't anything really to do with me, but some are 
very effusive and some just shake hands. 

Riess: Do they call you Mary or Dr. Jones? 

Jones: Some of them call me Mary and some of them call me "Doctor." I always 
say, "After all these years I'm 'Mary.' ' But it isn't easy for some 
people, you know, to change and this is interesting. 

Riess: If you're interviewing both halves of the couple 
Jones: I'm not interviewing, I'm just talking to them. 

Riess: Just talking, okay. But one half you know from the study and the oth 
er half you know, from since when? 

Jones: If they came to reunions. Also, I interviewed most of them in their 
homes in the early 1960s. They were interviewed, they're in this 
book, [laughter] 

Sometimes the husbands and wives come in separately. They can't 
come at the same time. One woman came in her husband had been in 



81 



and I had a feeling that because she was only the wife she found it a 
little more difficult to talk intimately. I had a feeling that she 
was afraid of giving away maybe some things that he wouldn't have 
talked about. I just wonder how they feel about coming in as a 
spouse. Apparently having been associated with this study makes some 
of the study members feel very, very close to the thing and feel that 
what they're doing is very important, and they take it very seriously. 
They come in to work from nine to five. You know, it's a long hard 
day. I'd wondered how the spouses feel about it. 

Riess: Have you pursued it with any of them? 

Jones: Yes, and some of them complain about how long and hard it is. .I/jo 
only there during the noon hour. Once in a while, I happen to be 
there when they're leaving. I try not to be, because there's a 
schedule: somebody greets them, and at the end they sign something 
which says that this can be used, so I try to be away when this is go 
ing on. But once in a while I happen to be around when they're leav 
ing or when they're waiting in the waiting room for something else to 
happen, and a couple of them have complained about how hard it's been. 
In fact they've had to cut the program down a little bit because it 
ran too late. 

Riess: I guess maybe you haven't completely figured out yet why people keep 
coming back and back and back. 

Jones: I mentioned this to Millie Almy who's in the Education Department and 
on the advisory council of the Institute. I said, "I don't know why 
they are willing to come back." She said she was associated with a 
study similar to this at Harvard for a while, the Stewart study. She 
said there was a woman who was in an auto accident about a hundred 
miles away from Cambridge and she phoned back to Dr. Stewart to ask 
for a good physician in the town where she'd been injured. Millie 
said there's something about these studies that people feel is impor 
tant, and their associations with the staff are really of value. 

Riess: Would you go even further to say something about how people like more 
organization in their life? 

Jones: Yes, they like to talk about their problems and their attitudes. It 
gives them a chance. 



Helping the Study Members 

Riess: Compared to the general population, people who would be sixty years 

old today wouldn't be among the most psychologically enlightened, 
would they? 



82 



Jones: No, it wasn't the thing then, the way it is now, to belong to EST 
or [laughs] 

Riess : But now, do you think compared to the general population, your sixty- 
year-olds are fairly hip about themselves and these psychological 
processes, and about what's being looked for? 

Jones: It depends pretty much upon their individual experience. People who 
have had problems tend to be more hip, because they've had to do some 
thing about it. 

Riess: Maybe your people have been able to go out and seek help more effec 
tively. 

Jones: They have, some of them. This is one of the things we know about 
them, which ones have sought help. 

Riess: As a long term positive effect, you reared a population of people who 
know how to seek help? 

Jones: I'm amazed at some people, who even at this stage don't face them 
selves, don't know how to talk about themselves, and others who just 
let it flow out. Of course, there is everything in between. 

Riess: In that noon hour, how free do you feel to facilitate that talking it 
out, for those who seem to have difficulty? 

Jones: I try not to interfere with what the clinician is doing, the inter 
viewers. But I think we often get to some problems, and individual 
problems. I'm especially interested in their relationships to their 
parents who are still living and those who put their parents in nurs 
ing homes, and their attitude about this. You know, there's a three 
generation, in fact a four generation, in some cases, spread. I'm not 
only interested in what their youngsters are doing, but also what 
they're doing with their parents and their attitudes toward them. 

Riess: You knew those parents too. 

Jones: Sure. There aren't many of them left, but I know them. 

Riess: It sounds fascinating to be an observer. 

Jones: Oh, yes. I feel like I couldn't have had a better life [laughs] in 
regard to my job. 

Riess: I was going to ask you, what was the most satisfying thing in your 
life? 

Jones: My family came first, but the job certainly has been very important. 
I never thought too much about having a career, it just kind of hap- 



pened, and it's been just wonderful. The same about annuity, it's 
wonderful to have. I mean when I was working I didn't think this was 
going to add up to money in my old age, but it has. 

Riess: That is reassuring. 

Jones: Yes. [laughs] In addition, I get an annuity as a widow. I'm not 
wealthy, but I'm not worried about money. But I didn't think much 
about this when we were working, that wasn't why I was working at all. 
As I say, I wouldn't work full time until it seemed a good thing to 
do. 

Riess: What parts of it were drudgery in the work? 

Jones: I guess, writing it up. The actual contacts were fun, but I would say 
that writing stuff up is work, I don't enjoy writing. 

Riess: Have you thought about how the whole thing has affected you? 

Jones: I think I know a lot of people, and a lot of kinds of people, that I 
never would have known otherwise. I think it gives me a better, I 
hope, a better understanding of mankind. Even though our group was 
white and predominantly middle class. 

Riess: If you saw in the study somebody who was really in trouble, what did 
you do? 

Jones: Judy Chaffey was the person, she was their counselor. I would say 
that we usually turned over problems that we knew about to her. 

There was a woman in last week who used to think that she was not 
very bright, and she would express this as a "dumb thing like me." She 
didn't tell me but she told the interviewer this time, that she had 
dyslexia, which is" not being able to see words properly, and that she 
didn't discover this until ten years ago. Now, whether we should have 
discovered this, or whether anybody could have discovered it way back 
then, I don't know. But this we feel badly about, that we weren't 
helpful. She didn't tell it to me, so I wasn't able to find out, but 
probably the interviewer found out how she discovered it and if it 
really is true and so forth. 

What I do when I prepare for seeing them I have somebody today 
at 11:45, a couple we've had these newsletters prepared for each 
reunion, and I go over those and refresh my mind on what they did dur 
ing the war and so forth. Then I get out pictures of them from child 
hood and from the reunions if they came and then I show them these. 
Sometimes they'll say, "Oh, I never saw that picture before. I wish I 
had that one." Then I'll get them a copy. Those who have had di 
vorces, or children who have had problems, I have to be careful what I 
say, but at least I know something about their background, when I meet 



84 



with them. 

Riess: So, that's something about the emotional involvement. I guess these 
people really aren't "cases" for you at all. What I was thinking is 
that sometimes you might "be unable to act in whatever your appropriate 
role was. Not that you couldn't figure out what to do with the 
person's problems, but that you realized that you were acting more 
like somebody's mother than somebody's observer. Within the Institute 
was there some sort of system for helping you sort that out, or deal 
with that? 

Jones: In the case of the people in the Oakland Growth Study, we saw them al 
most every day and I think we acted like mothers, whether we should 
have or not. That's been a big question: what has being in this study 
done to these people. For example, they had intelligence tests after 
intelligence tests does the practice effect show? In general, ap 
parently, it doesn't. [Present and Past, p. 144]. But that is a 
question: how much should you change their lives when you're studying 
them? 

Riess: Was that a question that you addressed at the time, systematically? 

Jones: No, I don't think we did. I think we were human beings, we couldn't. 
I think we hoped that we had done something useful. Judith Chaffey, 
when she was counseling, was very helpful. There were young boys who 
had no idea they could go to college, they couldn't afford it. She 
found out how to get them scholarships, jobs or something. Harold and 
I infrequently gave garden jobs to boys. 

I don't think you can be standoffish in a situation like that. 

According to this [book] it hasn't made any difference in their 
intelligence, their ability to answer questions on tests. Jean 
Macfarlane has a group who had been interviewed and a group who had 
not been interviewed. 

Riess: I am interested in the degree of sophistication of the Institute in 
those early days, whether you got together routinely as a group and 
discussed these questions. How concerned would you say the staff at 
the Institute was? 

Jones: About what effect we were having? 
Riess: Yes. 

Jones: I don't think we got together as a staff and talked about it. I think 
we all knew that we were responding in a human way. A lot of people 
had called Jean Macfarlane up and talked about problems when they 
weren't scheduled. I think in the case of the Oakland Growth Study 
they mostly went to Judy Chaffey as children, because she was their 



counselor all the way through. Sometimes they'd come to me. 



_A Talk at Holy Names 

Jones: [added later] Since our last interview, I have been involved in 
several projects which might add to our previous discussion about per 
sons and the Institute history. 

Deana Logan, the young educator who wrote my sketch for Psycholo- 
jy_ _of_ Women Quarterly asked me to speak at Holy Names College about 
the Institute. She also asked Florine Livson to talk at the same ses 
sion of her current research at the Institute. Flo's chapter in our 
book, "Gender Identity: A Life Span Study of Sex Role Development and 
Personality", indicates her interests. 

I started my talk by saying that I was going to be "personally 
historical" but that Flo was a NOW person who could bring the audience 
up to date about our recent research, using current theories, the la 
test statistical methods, modern thought. 

As you know, Florine Livson was murdered not long after the occa 
sion of our joint presentation. I met her mother at the services and 
have been in touch with her since by correspondence. Flo had become a 
key person on the Institute staff and would have had a major role in 
our present follow-up. Her death is a real loss. 

In my talk I went back in some detail to the history of child 
care and child development. I mentioned that the nursery school may 
be thought to have its origin in England and quoted Robert Owen, born 
in 1771 and manager of cotton spinning mills in New Lenark, England, 
whose point of view brought children out of the dark of the gloomy and 
harsh religious and economic practices of the times: "Children are not 
born bad for it is through the education or the influences of cir 
cumstances that man becomes good or bad, inferior or superior." His 
factory provided childcare. 

Economists of that period felt that family affection was desir 
able for the well-to-do but inappropriate for those in poverty because 
the poor children, if treated well at home, resisted being apprenticed 
at an early age and were less docile as workers. 

In this country, the poor health and mental condition of many 
draftees in World War I had been thought to trigger the awakening con 
cern about the condition of the nation's children. 

The Rockefeller Foundation, the private philanthropy attuned to 
the sentiment of the times, provided much of the where-with-all to 



86 



tackle the problem. First, parents were to learn how to maximize 
their childrens' potentials. The Child Study Association of America 
was founded. Parents' Magazine was the organ which provided guidance 
with a monthly study program. This was widely used all over the coun 
try, including groups sponsored by our Institute as I have said ear 
lier. Such topics as Why Children Quarrel, Why Children Fail in 
School, Guiding the Adolescent in a Changing World, were examined. It 
was believed we could correct almost all the ills of humanity if we 
started early enough. 

But what did we know about the science of child rearing? 
Research was needed. This was when the Laura Spelman Rockefeller 
Foundation offered the Fellowships such as I had 1925-1927 for the in 
terdisciplinary study of children and when Institutes such as ours 
were established. 



Initiating the Project 

Jones: In that talk at Holy Names I have tried to bring alive the warm feel 
ing which many of the study members have toward the project. I went 
back to the 1930's when the OGS project was initiated. 

Parents received letters written by Herbert Stolz and signed by 
the school principal promoting the idea of the study. The letter was 
followed by a home visit from the person (Judy Chaffey) who was to be 
the student counselor for all of their school life. For the children 
themselves, life in the 5th and 6th grade classrooms of five Oakland 
elementary schools took on an unexpected turn one rainy day in the 
month of January 



Many hands went up when a visitor (me) asked if they would like 
to be in a study to help us find out more about how children grow. 
They would be driven up to the University with a small group of 
friends twice a year to be measured and studied. Of course parents 
would have to give their consent. One paragraph of the letter sent to 
the parents was especially subject to individual interpretation. 

It read, "It is planned to follow the physical and psychological 
development of these children for at least five years during the 
period of rapid change which usually commences in the fifth or sixth 
grade and continues through Junior High School and into Senior High 
School." 

Some parents were alarmed that there would be sex education 
"that you will tell them what they are too young to know." Others 
hoped that the study would "enlighten the children about sex because 
they themselves did not know what to say and there was so much dirty 



87 



talk around school." 

Some fathers, especially, were apprehensive about the psychologi 
cal aspects. "I am willing to have Lex in the study if it is to ob 
serve development and not to tamper with it." 

"I don't want Ethel experimented with, possibly psychoanalyzed." 

"Can Dora have her teeth straightened?" 

"Can you help us with Ted? He's so willful." 

"Nick stutters." 

Most parents liked their children just as they were and expected 
the University to enjoy knowing them. 

Finally the group was together in Junior High School. A club 
house was set up in a house next door to the school. It was during 
the depression years, so in addition to the University staff the 
Federal Works Progress Administration furnished personnel to sponsor 
athletics, dramatic productions, art lessons. 



The Clubhouse 



Jones: Study members and their friends frequented the clubhouse during the 
lunch hour, after school, Saturdays. For many, it was the boy-meets- 
girl stage and it needed practice. This was when boys and girls 
deserted the school playgrounds where they were accustomed to playing 
vigorously in like-sexed games for the clubhouse, for games like 
ping-pong, cards, darts, badminton, in which boys and girls could com 
pete on equal terms and in mixed groups. 

Dancing was the favorite activity. Since dancing had to be 
learned, there was concern over mastering the steps, adjusting to the 
partners' steps, to the rhythm set by the music, the manner of asking 
a partner to dance. It could be like this: "Phoebe, can I ask you to 
dance with these shoes I've got on?" "Sure, Dick, my oxfords have 
rubber soles like your tennis shoes." Or it could be with a popular 
sobriquet: "Dance with me horse-collar?" "Yowsa." Since girls were 
more interested and also more adept, it was quite usual for girls to 
dance with other girls. Likewise boys who were still unskilled or too 
bashful to ask girls to dance frequently danced with other boys. Some 
boys sought adults and especially the young adult staff members, usu 
ally college students, as partners while they learned. 

The boys and girls themselves had the idea of using the clubhouse 



on weekends to "throw a party." The idea was to reserve the clubhouse 
for an evening so that small groups could have a party hostessed by 
one or several of their members and the guests to be of their choos 
ing. Staff members were to substitute for parents as chaperones. The 
clubhouse was soon booked up months ahead by various groups in turn 
for Friday and Saturday evenings. 

The first clubhouse party was a costume party. Six girls were 
hostesses. They came in after school to decorate with festoons of pa 
per ribbons and balloons. They were back again at 7:00 with refresh 
ments. Pat had forgotten to bring the sugar. Miss Chaffey took her 
home in her car to get it. The guests began to arrive at 7:30. There 
was no dance music on the radio at this hour and besides the boys pre 
ferred to listen to "One Man's Family." 

Sue finally decided that to get things going they would judge the 
costumes. The girls stood up one at a time and the boys clapped. 
They clapped loudest for Jean and Nancy. Jean wore a very short band 
mascot's military costume which she had thought might be considered 
too naked. Sue gave the prize to Nancy's exquisite old-fashioned, 
handmade wedding dress. The girls clapped loudest for Frank's cos 
tume, a Spanish outfit with a big sombrero. 

Sue and Helen had selected the prizes. The girl's was a minia 
ture cake of Life Buoy soap and the boy's (which came in a large pack 
age) turned out to be a tiny black toy toilet. The look of several 
faces suggested that the prizes had not been wisely chosen. Pat com 
mented with disgust: "My heavens what a prize." Sue said later, "I 
guess those prizes were not so good but I had lots of Life Buoy sam 
ples and Helen had the little toilet." 

After this they began to dance. Several girls were noticeably 
not chosen as partners. These "wallflowers" sometimes danced with 
each other. Sadie finally asked boys to dance with her. When Rose 
was not asked to dance, she resorted to going upstairs to fix her hair 
and powder her nose. After the dancing and the choosing of the best 
dancers they had refreshments. It again fell to Sue to keep the boys 
out of the kitchen and to see that all the guests got their punch 
(made out of a prepared powder) and cake. 

Then they played "wink." The lights had been dim for the dancing, 
but for this game they all crowded into one room and turned on all the 
lights. The chairs were placed in a circle, the girls sitting, the 
boys standing behind them. The adults were invited to sit on the 
couch to watch the proceedings. Early in the game Jane asked, "Does 
the person get kissed when she gets away or when she does not get 
away?" When the rest of the group yelled, "Both," she queried, "Then 
what is the use of the game?" 

With the exception of Sam, the new boy at school, the kissing was 



89 



a very gentle peck on the cheek. They soon tired of the game and were 
dancing by candle light, as the parents began calling for their chil 
dren. All the girls were called for by their parents except two sis 
ters who were escorted home by one of the boys, and Joan whose brother 
took her home. 



The Excursions 



Jones: For senior high school, excursions were planned to provide situations 
in which unstaged behavior could be observed among our representative 
sample of young people. The clubhouse had afforded such an opportuni 
ty for the junior high school age, but with the group's increased mo 
bility, the effects of cliques fostered by high school invitational 
social clubs and the widening scope of interests, a clubhouse seemed 
too circumscribed. 

Provisions for activities in group excursions away from the fami 
liar school environment seemed to meet the requirements. 

Eleven such events occurred during the senior high school years: 

a boat trip around the bay, two ice skating parties, an overnight snow 

trip, a roller skating party, several three day camping trips, a day 

at the Fairview Country Club, a graduation party at the U. C. Men's 
Gym, complete with orchestra, swimming, sports facilities. A night on 

the train, evenings around the campfire, provides a lively but too 
lengthy narrative for this occasion. 

The staff, usually at least six people (including a nurse and a 
physical ed director) got together after the event to report what they 
had seen, concentrating on the behavior of individuals. One of the 
staff compiled what she called, in quotes, "Culture Notes." What could 
we conclude or surmise? Under Values for example, virility in boys, 
daring stunts, dirty words; femininity for girls Lila changes from 
clowning to passivity, good looks, easy to talk to. 

After high school there have been reunions and newsletters such 
as high school and college graduates prepare to accompany class reun 
ions. The third newsletter in 1944 commented: "It is more than five 
years after. To reach you these letters will travel to the four 
corners of the earth." It was World War II and our group were in the 
middle of it. 

Reunions have served to renew friendships among participants and 
cement relationships with staff as this letter indicates: 



, 









90 



Dear Mary: 

Just wanted to tell you again how much we enjoyed the 
reunion. I'm so glad our children had the opportunity to 
meet some of the people we study members have talked about 
all these years. As I've said before, those associations 
and memories have been very important to my life and I feel 
privileged to have been a part of the study. 

Thanks again for a delightful time. 

Best wishes from the family, 
Sally 

Last year a discussion group supplemented fraternization. The 
person who emerged as leader of the session had written in ahead of 
time for the newsletter: "We are thinking about but not acting upon 
what we want to do from now on, and where. I do believe it would be 
interesting to talk with 'old' study members and perhaps get some new 
ideas." This woman's orientation set the tone for the discussion. 

One man submitted several pages from a text by Roszak as a possi 
ble point of departure. A certain ambivalence toward the study is 
sensed in the excerpt which begins: "As soon as the observer claims to 
be aware of nothing more than the behavioral surface of the observed, 
an invidious hierarchy is established which reduces the observed to a 
lower status." 

The discussion which highlighted the reunion for some members 
suggested the formation of a cooperative committee of the observers 
and the "observed" to insure that future programs will involve study 
members in the planning and thereby acknowledge their equal status in 
the research endeavor. 

Some of the study procedures have, in themselves, won us friends, 
as this letter testifies: 

Gentlemen and Ladies: 

I don't know if the group of which I am a part, ever 
responded to you before. e had a visit Monday from Cal, 
four of your people gave my wife, two sons and myself a cou 
ple of tests and an enjoyable evening. 

Left for me to read were two articles written this 
year. I have since read these and understand a little more 
of what's been done with our answers. 

For the information of your study group the following 
is as true as I can phrase the situation. 

We were envied by many as being in a special group. 
(While we were just coming out of a bad financial time, The 
Great Depression, we received a free health exam twice a 
year, also envied by many). 



91 



As time has passed I have discussed my part in all of 
this with friends. Usually the reaction was that they won 
dered how I was so lucky as to be involved in such an en 
deavor, [l have been proud to be a part. My part hasn't 
been much even if I did answer most questions asked of me. 
Of course we did pull a few problems on Miss Chaffey, our 
counselor, and on our pair of Joneses (Harold and Mary). I 
think they took it in their stride.] 

So to all of you, thanks again from all of us. And if 
you need more subjects, remember my family is now covering a 
four generation spread. 

Thanks . 

[end of separate Jones addition] 



ICV Staff 

Riess: You talked about Jean Macfarlane's being a clinician setting her 
apart. What was the prevailing attitude towards the clinical and 
therapy aspect of psychology in the Institute? 

Jones: I think we all felt that was part of the picture. Now I'm thinking of 
one person who combined procedures, and that was Nancy Bayley. She 
did the x-rays, which was a specific laboratory procedure. She also 
did the mental tests, and in fact she standardized a test that's used 
quite generally. But she also talked to parents. She was a good ex 
ample of a person who was both technical and clinical. I mentioned 
Nathan Shock as a person who was almost entirely technical. 

Riess: Did any of them have a part-time private practice? 
Jones: Not at that time. Of course, Erik Erikson did. 



1937 



Riess: Did people write from other universities and say they would like to 
come and do their own study using the data? 

Jones: Yes, this came, I would say, quite a bit later. Joe Kuypers who is a 
sociologist and interested in the gerontological data. I think this 
was true of Henry Maas, who was in social welfare. I'd say there's 
much more of that now that there is data collected and people are 
knowing about it. There are more people coming in with their own 
research interests. 






. 






92 



Riess: I looked at the bulletin from 1938 

Jones: I should have brought you one that just came out last week, for 1981. 

Riess: Well, we historians haven't even begun to consider 1981. [laughter] 
The Oakland Growth Study staff was Harold, Ph.D. and Herbert, M.D. , 
who at that point was the assistant superintendent of Oakland schools. 
Then an L. M. Bayer, Dr. Bayer from San Francisco, Dr. H. B. Pryor from 
Stanford. 

Jones: They were physicians. 

Riess: Ruth Harmon, another doctor. 

Jones: She was a physician. 

Riess: H.E. Roe and F.E. Sawyer, M.D. 's. 

Jones: They did physical measurements. Some were kind of assistants to Her 
bert Stolz for the physical exams. Leona Bayer has continued on the 
staff and has used the data in articles and reports. Dr. Pryor wrote 
one or two articles. Bayer is co-author of a chapter in the book on 
some of the physical data. 

Riess: Then Nancy Bayley Reid. Though she and you all had your Ph.D. 's, you 
were called research associates. 

Jones: Yes, she did the x-rays on the OGS group. I've mentioned her own 
Berkeley Growth Study group. 

Riess: W. Jaffray Cameron, Ph.D.? 

Jones: He observed the Adolescent Study members and he'd written some arti 
cles. He died young. 

Riess: H.D. Carter? 

Jones: That's Harold Carter. He had mostly vocational interests. He wrote 
on that subject. 

Riess: Judy Chaffey is identified as "field worker," did she not have a doc 
torate? 

Jones : No , she may have had an M. A. 
Riess: How did she come on to the staff? 

Jones: She was a teacher and counselor in the Oakland schools. She taught 
French principally. She went back to Washington, D. C. and worked and 
studied at St. Elizabeth's Hospital. When we were looking for a coun- 



93 



selor from the schools, they said, "Well, here's Judy Chaffey who has 
been a counselor and a French teacher and who's gone back East to get 
some additional training." So she sounded good. 

Riess: H.S. Conrad? 

Jones: He's the one who worked primarily in well, he developed a rating 
scale for the nursery school and I can't remember exactly what he did 
for the adolescent study, probably worked on the rating scale that 
Caroline Tryon finally developed. He was very accomplished and help 
ful with statistical problems and editing manuscripts. He edited a 
book of Harold's writings and addresses. This was his memorial contri 
bution to Harold [Conrad, Herbert S. , (Ed.). Studies _in Human 
Development. New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1 966 j. He left here 
and went back to Princeton, College Entrance Examination Board, and 
finally as education research and program specialist, U.S. Office of 
Education in Washington, B.C. 

Riess: Anna Espenschade? 

Jones: She was a physical ed teacher here and she did her Ph.D. thesis on the 
physical and motor development of our youngsters. She had special 
tests that she used in the playyard and that sort of thing. 

Riess: Nathan Shock, Ph.D. Somehow I thought because of all of the physio 
logical stuff, that he might have been an M.D. 

Jones: No, he got his Ph.D. in psychology actually, but he was a physiologi 
cal psychologist. When he retired in 1976 he was scientific director, 
National Institute on Aging, National Institute of Health. 

Riess: And Caroline Tryon. She's married to a psychologist? 

Jones: She was married to Robert Tryon at one time. They were divorced and 
he remarried. She died rather young, I guess in her sixties. 

Riess: In that year also, there were two people visiting, one from Stanford 
and one from Rutgers, Rex Bell and D. A. Prescott. 

Jones: Prescott was out here for a year. He was interested in our data and 
what we were doing and he was especially interested in parent educa 
tion. 

Riess: Margaret Schevill. She met Larry Frank at some point apparently? 

Jones: Now she's made an interesting contribution. I don't know how much of 
this you want, [see following chapter] 

Riess: Elizabeth Searle, another research assistant. 



94 



Jones: I don't remember her. 

Riess: You were really in the throes of it in 1937. That group would have 
been probably about seniors in high school by then, wouldn't they? 

Jones: Yes, just about. 

Riess: Frances Burke? 

Jones: She wrote a monograph on the social development of the group. 

Riess: Helen Campbell? 

Jones: She was a social worker who interviewed the Guidance Study people. 

Riess: I was interested that there were W. P. A. funds that year. Now how did 
that happen? Who put that together? 

Jones: Well, Harold had a lot of them around you know that was before calcu 
lators were so ubiquitous, and they were doing a kind of data analysis 
that you would do by calculating now. We had a lot of those people 
around with pencils and paper, [laughter] They were supervised by our 
staff members. 

Riess: They weren't doing art projects? 

Jones: Well yes, that was another group. And we had athletic directors and 
drama people from W. P. A. 

Riess: I think that's very resourceful. Did Harold think of doing that? 

Jones: Yes. I remember we had a sculptor who did a fountain for us, in the 
old building when it was the Institute of Child Welfare, in the back 
yard. 'I don't know what happened to that. But these were all W.P.A. 
people. 

Riess: Harold put together a proposal and sent it to a local W.P.A. supervi 
sor? 

Jones: I guess so. They'd send him people to interview. 
Riess: Before you had the W.P.A. people, who worked on data? 

Jones: We employed people. Herbert Conrad and Harold Carter were very good 
at supervising. Sometimes we got graduate students to work for a time 
on projects of that sort. 






. 















95 



Erik Erikson 



Riess: I had asked the question about the clinical training and whether there 
were people who were part-time clinicians, and you mentioned Erik. I 
would like to know what effect Erikson did have. 

Jones: I can't say right off when he appeared. I think in the 1940's. 

Riess: You said [see following chapter], "His psychoanalytically-oriented 
case interpretations have enriched a number of staff seminars and 
benefited the participants." I'd like to hear more about that. 

Jones: I think I meant benefited the participants in the discussions, not the 
study members, but the staff. I would say that we had always been 
hospitable toward the psychoanalytic point of view, but that we hadn't 
had anybody who was straight, dynamic psychology, in the sense that 
Erik was. So I think that his way of looking at parent-child rela 
tionships and personality and so forth was beneficial and enriching to 
us. 

Riess: He was working with the Guidance Study essentially? 

Jones: Yes, because they had more interview data on the parents than the OGS 
or BGS. Also, they started at an earlier age with the children than 
the OGS. Now he's back with a grant of his own and they, Joan and 
Erik, come in three or four days every two weeks. They live in Marin 
County and so they come over and stay at the Men's Faculty Club. They 
have a woman working with them, who is a social worker. He is inter 
viewing the parents of the study members who are now, of course, in 
their seventies, and he's interested in this stage, the generativity 
stage. 

Riess: I have a chart of Erikson' s stages here. Generativity versus Self- 
absorption, but then the last stage is Integrity versus Despair. 

Jones: Maybe that's it. 



The Dinner Group 

Jones: You say you're interested in who gets together for meals. [referring 
to earlier conversation] Nevitt Sanford retired from the right Insti 
tute, which he established, but he goes back and gives a course in the 
history of psychology. Every once in a while he asks me to come back 
and talk to his class. His wife Christine got a group together for 
dinner once a month each person takes something and we meet at one of 
the houses. The hostess has the main course and then we get together 



96 



at the end of each meeting and decide who's going to bring what to the 
next one. She chose the people, and they are all widows except Chris 
tine and her husband. 

Peggy Hayes, who's written a book about the Calder family, she's 
in the group. I don't know if you want to know who else. 

Riess: Yes, I do. 

Jones: Well, the Eriksons have joined the group. 

Riess: Who else is in the group? 

Jones: Katherine Caldwell, who taught art at Mills and whose husband taught 
here. Margaret Rowell. 

Riess: The cellist. 

Jones: She's an interesting person. The San Francisco Conservatory of Music 
celebrated her eightieth birthday. An orchestra of 80 cellists gave a 
concert. It was marvelous. Elizabeth Elkus her husband was in the 
music department. Let's see, is that it? They called it The Group, 
because Nevitt at one time taught at Vassar, you know, and Mary 
McCarthy wrote The Group, [laughter] I didn't mention it, but Nevitt 
left here because he didn't sign the oath, and he went back to Vassar. 

Riess: In The Group what do you talk about? 

Jones: That's interesting, because once in a while somebody tries to get a 
little advice from Nevitt or Erik. They're very silent. One of the 
people, the last time, she was talking about her dreams, and I 
thought, let's see what these dream experts are going to say. They 
didn't say anything, except Nevitt said, "Well, what was your dream?" 
She told the dream, but nobody interpreted it. 

Riess: There is this taboo about shop talk? 

Jones: Yes. They just don't talk in terms of shop, [laughter] We talk about 

different things different times, but this last time Nevitt got the 

idea of having everybody tell where they came from. I was able to 
tell about the Johnstown flood. 

Riess: So it does take a certain order? 

Jones : Somet imes . 

Riess: What about the fact that there was only one man and all those women? 

Jones: Because it was Christine's idea and these were friends of hers. I 
don't know how she happened to include me. She's always been in- 



97 



terested in the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. I 
guess Katherine Caldwell was in that. She met these people in dif 
ferent ways and liked them apparently and thought we'd go together. 
It was her idea. 

Riess: That makes two very interesting groups that you're part of. You're 
also part of a group in San Francisco. 

Jones: Yes, except I can't go anymore because I lunch here maybe six days a 
week, every weekday and sometimes Saturday and Sunday, with a study 
couple. 

Riess: But that will pass. 

Jones: Yes, it will pass, but not for months. I haven't been over this whole 
month. 

Riess: They're both groups that include very impressive older women. Do they 
take on something of the same coloring in terms of what comes up as 
issues to talk about. 

Jones: This is definitely what the program is about in San Francisco, I mean 
to get together and talk. Have I shown you any of the poems or the 
pictures of one of the women in that group? She is Forgie Arnstein, 
wife of Lawrence Arnstein. Their oral history is in The Bancroft Li 
brary. 

Riess: You did show me one of the poems. So you're saying that that's a 
group that just gets together for the purpose of talking for the sake 
of the members. 

Jones: They don't call themselves therapeutic, but it has somewhat that ef 
fect, I would say. 

Riess: Do they turn to you as a psychologist? 

Jones: Me, oh no. The person who started this is a social worker, Marge Loz- 
off. She's quite a lot younger, but she's had Meniere's disease, 
which is an inner ear infection, and she was quite ill for a while. 
Now she's still a little unstable in walking and so forth. She was 
concerned about getting old and so she got a group of older people to 
gether. She says she's learning now how to grow old through us. I 
hope usefully. 

Riess: But that wouldn't be the case with the other group. 

Jones: Oh no. I don't know just what Christine had in mind, maybe to keep 
Nevitt busy after he retired, [laughter] 

Riess: One more question. Ve were talking about Erikson's psychoanalytic 




Clockwise from left: 

Mary Cover Jones, 1949. 
Harold E. Jones, 1957. 

Sitting: Judy Chaf fey , Francis Newman, 
Mary Jones; standing: Herbert Stolz 
and Harold Jones. Ca. 1957. 




98 



orientation in case presentations to the staff. He was presenting the 
Guidance Study material, but did that alter your questionnaire pat 
terns or anything in your Adolescent Study? 

Jones: I'm sure he'd look for more in terms of boy-girl relationships, 
parent-child relationships, in terms of what happened when they were 
young children, which would be the emphasis in a psychoanalytic point 
of view. 

Riess: Elsa Frenkel-Brunswik was a staff person at some point? 

Jones: Yes. She didn't interview people, but she used the data. And you 
asked about adding questions [reflecting the interest of particular 
people working with the data]. I described the Guess Who in the repu 
tation measure, where they rated each other in school. I remember we 
added some questions that Elsa would be interested in, this kind of 
thing. 



More on the Individual Staff Members 

Jones: [added later] Earlier you asked a question which I haven't addressed 
specifically. How did we influence each other at the Institute? Who 
worked with whom, who influenced whom? 

We influenced each other as any group of people do: by listening, 
questioning, supporting, criticizing, cooperating. Our objective was 
to contribute to an understanding of the "whole" individual, a biolog 
ical organism in a cultural setting: first the infant, then the 
child, then the adolescent, now the adult. This required an interdis 
ciplinary staff with different theoretical orientations, different 
techniques for collecting and processing data, for reporting and 
evaluating findings. 

The interesting fact is that people with such varied backgrounds 
were able to function together as well as we did in order to keep the 
multidisciplinary research projects productive over so many years. 
Likewise, the fact that so many people, representing so many areas, 
could appeal to our study members, keeping them willing and even 
enthusiastic about returning for assessment is noteworthy. 

When submitting requests for funding, or in progress reports, it 
was anticipated that the question of staff interrelatedness would ar 
ise. In one of Harold's last proposals for a Research Division on Ag 
ing at U. C. involving cooperating departments he faced this issue of 
"competition in programs" and suggested that, in his experience, terms 
such as "coexisting efforts," "interstimulation," and "productive com 
petition" would describe the research efforts of a multidisciplinary 



99 



staff. 

We need to consider individuals to illustrate: 

Herbert Stolz 



Jones: Herbert Stolz, the first director of the Institute, was an M.D. He 
had been chief of the Bureau of Child Study and Parent Education of 
the State Department of Education. He continued a small part of his 
time in this capacity when he took over the directorship. 

In the early days of the Institute, Stolz was in charge of a 
monthly article in the Parent-Teacher Magazine which presented a prob 
lem for study. Study groups of parents were invited to send in sum 
maries of their discussion and these were published in the magazine 
along with Stolz 's recommendations for handling the situation. 

For example: Esther smokes cigarettes. She is 16, a 
junior in a city high school, vivacious, wholesome, popular. 
Both parents are shocked. Esther does not feel guilty. 
This problem (much abbreviated by me) is presented with 
these questions: 

1 . If you wanted to persuade Esther to postpone smok 
ing until she has graduated from high school, what argument 
would you advance? 

2. Why is smoking more common among high school girls 
than it used to be? 

Herbert was a popular public speaker and public figure. He was 
director until 1935. He continued in charge of the medical program 
for all three longitudinal studies. He not only measured and examined 
the boys in the Adolescent Growth Study, but picked them up at school, 
drove them to the University for this twice yearly program. Larry 
Frank has been quoted as saying that the best thing to come out of the 
Adolescent Study was the book by Herbert and Lois Stolz, The Somatic 
Development oj* Adolescent Boys. 

In 1935 Stolz accepted an assignment with the Oakland School 
Department as deputy superintendent of education in charge of special 
schools and services. 



Nancy Bayley 
Jones: The first research program to get underway at the Institute was the 



100 



Berkeley Growth Study with Nancy Bayley. Harold brought her here in 
the Fall of 1928 from the University of Wyoming where she had been 
teaching in the Psychology Department. She had had experience in men 
tal testing, had had an article published in the Pedagogical Seminary 
and Journal of Genetic Psychology; A Study of Pear by means of the 
Galvanometer Technique, and was interested in the "processes of 
development of the human organism" (Senn). [from interview by Milton 
Senn, in the Bancroft Library] [The reference I found for this study 
was: Psychological Monographs, 1928, 38, (4 Whole No. 17 (6)). M.C. 
Jones] 

Nancy never had an academic appointment here. She wasn't in 
terested in teaching. However she found that on this campus at that 
time, only members of the academic teaching staff could apply for 
grants. When funds were needed, Harold had to apply for grants for 
her research after the original funds had expired. 

As I mentioned earlier, Nancy has said that she always felt like 
a minor cog in the wheel at U. C. though she was recognized as an au 
thority with status later when she left the Institute and went to 
Washington, B.C. as chief of the Division of Child Development of the 
National Institute of Mental Health. Nancy's husband John Reid ac 
cepted an appointment at Johns Hopkins Medical School so Nancy joined 
him in the east. She later returned to the Institute. Nancy and John 
are now retired and living in Carmel. 

Nancy not only received the G. Stanley Hall Award of the Develop 
mental Psychology section of the American Psychological Association as 
did Lois Stolz, Jean Macfarlane and myself, but she also earned the 
Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award of the American Psycholog 
ical Association. Her First Year Mental Scale is widely used. 



Dorothy Eichorn 

Jones: Dorothy Eichorn was well equipped to assume responsibilities for the 
Berkeley Growth Study after Nancy Bayley. Her psychological training 
was integrated with a biological slant. I remember the day when 
Harold first interviewed her. 

She had come to California from New England because her husband 
had taken a position at Napa State Hospital as a minister and coun 
selor. She would be commuting from Napa. Harold introduced us and 
later expressed his concern to me. Was it practical to expect someone 
to commute to work from Napa? Dotty has been doing it now very suc 
cessfully for thirty years. 

Dorothy Eichorn has not been on the academic ladder, but she is 



101 



now associate director and has been acting director of the Institute. 
Before the birth of their son Erik, Dotty and Ike stayed with us in 
Berkeley where Eric was born at Herrick Hospital. Dotty is equipped 
with tremendous energy which she has used in multiple administrative 
and committee assignments. For example, in addition to her Institute 
appointment she is now executive secretary of the Society for Research 
in Child Development. 



Jean Macfarlane 



Jones: A second research program, which, like the Berkeley Growth Study, be 
came a longitudinal study, was the Guidance Study under the direction 
of Jean Macfarlane. Jean is a U. C. Ph.D. in psychology with a clini 
cal and developmental background. She had worked with Douglas Thorn, 
an early child psychiatrist in Boston, and was on the faculty at U. C. 
Medical School. She came to the Institute as a research psychologist 
and with a part time teaching position in psychology from which she 
was emerited in 1961. 

The Guidance Study began in 1928 with a sample of every third 
child born in Berkeley. Because of Jean's clinical background the 
study is especially fruitful in the personality area. Early and con 
tinuing interviews with parents and children are especially rich and 
productive now that the group are in their fifties. These are in ad 
dition to the physical and some social measures. 

Jean's personal as well as scientific wisdom is apperceptive and 
well-expressed as, most recently, in her contributions to the edited 
volume: The Course of Human Development, New York: Wiley, 1971. That 
was edited by Jones, M.C., Bayley, N. , Macfarlane, J.. and Honzik, 

M.P. 

Her reaction to her career with the Guidance Study at the Insti 
tute is shared by many of us. "Involvement in longitudinal multidis- 
ciplinary study of personality has offered an intellectually exciting, 
frustrating, humility- inducing but highly satisfying life." (Senn) 
Jean is living in Berkeley and in touch with many of her colleagues 
and study members. 



Marjorie Honzik 

Jones: Marjorie Honzik, who has also contributed to the progress of the Gui 
dance Study for many years, began her association with the Institute 
in many capacities as early as her student years at U. C. After her 



102 



Ph.D. and a year with the A.A.U.W. Nursery School in Washington, D.C, 
she returned to the Institute and to the Guidance Study. She had a 
lectureship in the Psychology Department and was emerited in 1976. 
Like some of the rest of us, this did not end her participation in 
research at the Institute. She is still a mainstay, with a recent 
grant to build on her earlier studies of the effects of parent child 
relationships. One of her important contributions has been her study 
of intelligence and related variables, with publications as early as 
1938. Her findings may be considered one of our "breakthroughs." 

As Lomax puts it: "At that time (early 1920s) intellect was 
commonly viewed as a fixed genetic property. . .Very soon, 
however, longitudinal researchers were themselves casting 
doubt on the long term predictive value of infant scales. 
The first cautionary report came from Berkeley in 1938." 
(Marjorie P. Honzik: The Constancy of Mental Test Perfor 
mance during the Preschool Period. Journal oj* Genetic 
Psychology, 1938, ^2_, 285-302.) 

Our book in press, Present and Past in Midlife, has two chapters 
co-authored by Marjorie: "Experience, Personality and I.Q. ," and 
"Health in the Middle Years." These have used data from all three 
longitudinal studies. 



Erik Erikson 



Jones: Erik Erikson came to the Institute to work with the Guidance Study ma 
terial in the 1940s, and we discussed him earlier. 



Judith Chaffey 

Jones: The third longitudinal study under Herbert Stolz and Harold Jones, the 
Adolescent Growth Study, later the Oakland Growth Study, because the 
adolescents became adults, is strongest in the area of social, obser 
vational, and physiological data. The children, chosen from elementa 
ry schools when preadolescent , went to the same junior and senior high 
school. They were classmates. 

Their most appreciated staff person was their school counselor, 
Judith Chaffey. To some she became "Aunt Judy!" Judy, a tenured 
teacher of French at University High School had just returned from a 
year at St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington, D. C. where she got her 
M. A. in Psychology. With this appropriate background, she was an 
ideal choice. As she has said, "Keeping the group together and 



103 



cooperative was a major requirement. Since they knew and were in 
fluencing each other, if a negative feeling had ever developed in some 
quarters toward our project it could have endangered the whole under 
taking." (Recently said over the phone to me.) She visited their 
homes, interviewed their parents, took part in our social outings, 
taught many of them to drive using her own car. She lives at the 
Sequoias in San Francisco and is still first in the affection of the 
Oakland Growth Study members. 



Nathan Shock 



Jones: Nathan Shock was our psychological-physiological specialist. Measures 
of skin resistance with the galvanometer, basal metabolism tests, and 
exercise tolerance assessments were part of his provence. 

It was not a popular part of the program. As one girl com 
plained, "I didn't like the college men to see me running up stairs." 
To alleviate this humiliation, Shock himself ran up those flights of 
stairs with each day's contingent. A free breakfast of their menu 
choices was another appreciated peace offering. 



Elsa Frenkel-Brunswick 



Jones: This project, like the Guidance Study with Erik Erikson, benefited 
from a staff member with a psychoanalytic orientation, Elsa Frenkel- 
Brunswick. Elsa's monograph, "Motivation and Behavior," uses our 
Drive and Trait Ratings (from Harry Murray), our TAT's, our observa 
tional ratings and the adolescents' Adjustment Inventory Responses in 
a depth study which only she with her dynamic approach could have 
created. Egon Brunswick of the Psychology Department was responsible 
for bringing her to this country from Germany. They were married, be 
came next door neighbors and friends of ours. 



Nevitt Sanford 



Jones: Nevitt Sanford, a psychoanalytically oriented social psychologist 
[Evans, R.I. The Making j)f Social Psychology. New York; Gardner 
Press, Inc. , 1980] broadened our interpretations of Murray Picture 
analyses and case material. Nevitt was one of the committee with 
Dorothy Eichorn and Marjorie Honzik who wrote a very appreciative and 
perceptive memorial for Harold in Child Development. 



104 



Nevitt Sanford also helped me through that period of simultaneous 
widowhood and retirement by giving me a job at his new Institute for 
the Study of Human Problems at Stanford where I worked for five years 
on his study of Stanford students and on alcohol problems. Nevitt be 
lieved in and promoted interdisciplinary research, so at Stanford once 
again I benefited by associations with a number of people, many from 
other disciplines. 

I interviewed our OGS members as part of the Problem Drinking 
Study. Nevitt 1 s discussion of my paper on "Drinking Patterns in Wom 
en" gave it a more dynamic orientation. [Journal of Consulting and 
Clinical Psychology, 1968, J2_, 13-1?] More recently he obligingly al 
lowed Deana Logan to interview him about me as a person for her con 
tribution to Psychology of Women Quarterly. 



Paul Mussen 



Jones: Paul Mussen, with whom I coauthored three articles on rate of maturing 
in adolescence, was an able director of the Institute for ten years, 
until 1981. His contribution to the developmental field is outstand 
ing in the textbook and source book field. I can thank him for the 
editing of the draft of my chapter in Present and Past in Midlife. 



Margaret Erwin Schevill 

Jones: Margaret Erwin Schevill joined the Institute staff to develop an art 
project for the boys and girls in the Adolescent Study when the club 
house was opened in a rented residence next door to the Claremont 
Junior High School in Oakland in 1934. Hers became a very important 
contribution oriented toward dynamic (Jungian) psychology. 

The Schevills were neighbors of the Joneses. Mr. Schevill was 
professor of Spanish at U. C. Margaret Schevill had a private art 
class at her home on Tamalpais Road on Saturday mornings which our two 
daughters were enjoying. Harold and I liked her non-directed approach 
and persuaded her to undertake a similar project with study members. 

I will quote here from her report on her self-portrait project 
with study members which began in the autumn of 1936 and continued 
through 1938. 

The idea of the self-portrait was an easy one to ex 
plain to the members of the study. The film "Rembrandt" had 
just been shown, and most of the movie-goers had seen it and 



105 



knew that Mr. Charles Laughton's study of Rembrandt had been 
based on a large number of self-portraits by Rembrandt. 
Also the members of various groups had become acquainted 
with the Van Gogh self-portrait seen at the San Francisco 
exhibition. There was a certain fascination to a number of 
members of the study in saying "I wonder if I could draw my 
self." The numerous and varied reactions to the situation 
created by recognition of the mirror image will be spoken of 
later. The wonder and dismay of the primitive on beholding 
his double in stream or mirror was paralleled by some of the 
reactions. 

A word as to why I wanted to make a series of self- 
portraits of adolescents. In the autumn of 1935 I had been 
working in Zurich with Dr. Carl Jung. I had discussed with 
him in a number of sessions the necessity of recognizing the 
irrational aspects of the individual in our American educa 
tional program as well as the rational values. Since we 
knew that approximately only 25$ of our students were mental 
types, why were we insisting that the remaining 75$ follow a 
program unsuited to their probable development? Of course, 
the answer was the old one of college entrance requirement, 
and the false kudos existing in America for the holder of a 
college degree. But this was only part of the answer. We 
were bewildered as teachers and didn' t know what education 
(from educere - to lead out) really meant. 

The conclusion to which I came that term was that the 
so-called artistic evaluations of personality were as impor 
tant as the scientific ones. In further discussing 
children's art work with Dr. Jung he said that if we could 
look with the living eye at the art expression of children, 
we would see many things which the adult rational or scien 
tific eye could never see. Through the art work of children 
we have a primitive manifestation of human life, a new 
language which was waiting to be read. But science can kill 
these values, blot them out as though it had an evil eye, as 
though it made them lose their living values. The artistic 
eye recognizes these values, but needs the scientific eye to 
help it classify and evaluate. A synthesis of these two op 
posite points of view would keep us from too one-sided a 
point of view, a point of view which could not see the whole 
meaning. That it would modify our educational curricula was 
of course obvious. 

On my return to New York I had an interview with Mr. 
Lawrence Frank. We discussed the past art work of the 
study, and he said he was interested in further projects "to 
work through artistic media and other means to develop a 
fund of knowledge about what is going on in the maturation 



106 



process of significance to the individual destiny." He asked 
me in what new ways a presentation of the young individual 
could be made. He stressed also his interest in Dr. Jung's 
theory of the anima and animus . In the matter of the confu 
sion between the masculine and feminine roles in adoles 
cence, could we get any indications of this through artistic 
expression? He asked me to think of ways and means by which 
we could watch and honor those sensitive responses to 
creative material which the non- intellectual functions have 
to offer us. He thought that such responses would help us 
to a fuller view of the individual boy and girl in the 
study, and, in so doing, of adolescence in general. 

After this interview I thought of the self-portrait 
tentatively as a means to approach this very delicate ma 
terial lying at the threshold of emotional adolescent life. 
I also wanted to supplement the self-portrait with the pos 
sibility of a drawing of the opposite sex. 



Catherine Landreth 



Jones: I have been talking about people in the three longitudinal studies 
with whom I was closely associated before my retirement in 1960, and 
most of whom had contacts with the study members. This by no means 
represents the total staff or projects. 

For example, there is the nursery school and its research, now 
housed in the Harold E. Jones Child Study Center. As I said earlier, 
my daughter Lesley was a member of the first group, as was Bill Too- 
ley, physician for our longitudinal studies. Bob and Ida Sproul's 
second son, John, was also in an early group there. Later one of my 
grandsons was a student under Hannah Tiyo Sanders, a teacher of warmth 
and good cheer. 

Catherine Landreth, who became director of the school in 1938, 
has recorded her experiences in publications including a widely used 
textbook: Early Childhood; Behavior and Learning, 2nd ed. New York: 
Alfred A. Knopf, 1967 and Preschool Learning and Teaching, New York: 
Harper and Row, 1972. * 



The Study and the 60-Year Old Group 

Jones: What I really want to talk about before this oral history is finished 
is how we have kept these longitudinal studies going. A new follow-up 



*also see Landreth tapes and transcript in the Donated Oral History 
Collection of The Bancroft Library. 



107 



is in progress. Questionnaires have been sent out to bring our data 
up to date on family, jobs and so forth. The members will be coming 
in beginning this fall for physical assessments, interviews, tests, 
[see previous section, The "Lunch Study," and A Talk at Holy Names] 

The Intergenerational Study, (IGS) as it is now called, combines 
the Berkeley Growth Study (BGS), the Guidance Study (GS) and the 
(Adolescent) -Oakland Growth Study (OGS). Most of the members of the 
OGS are sixty years old this year. Their parents, spouses and chil 
dren have been included in some parts of the program. At least two 
OGS members are now great-grandmother's! 

Why do they stay with us? Some now feel they are making an im 
portant contribution to society. Even back in his adolescent years, 
one boy explained about the study, "It's to tell others how we grow." 

Some feel they are benefited by being listened to as they talk 
about themselves. A careful physical exam is welcomed by some. Be 
longing to an established group with a purpose has an appeal. There 
have been nine newsletters for the OGS members since their graduation 
from high school. From the days of World War II in which our men 
served and our women waited, the years of the depression, to the 
present (and for some the retirement years) , the letters provide con 
tinuity and companiable news. 

The last reason above applies particularly to OGS members, and I 
know something of how this came about. I gave as examples of devotion 
to this effort Herbert Stolz driving the boys to the Institute for 
their physical exam, Nathan Shock's running upstairs with the ex 
ercisers, Judy Chaffey as counselor, friend, driving instructor. 
Harold Jones provided interest and camaraderie as a photographer of 
informal situations at the Institute sessions, the clubhouse, on ex 
cursions and at post-high school reunions. For the last year or more 
I have been calling OGS members on their birthdays. They seem pleased 
and it is a real delight to me. 

[This final section is included as a restatement of a theme that Jones 
and the interviewer developed earlier in the interviews. Between the 
third and fourth interviews, Jones had submitted written material 
which, inevitably, inserted as it has been following the conversation 
that was based upon it, caused repetitions and overlappings in materi 
al discussed. S.B. Riess] 



Transcribers: Matt Schneider 
Ilanna Yuditsky 

Final Typist: Joanie Singer 



108 



AFTERWORD 



It has been a rewarding experience to participate in this oral history, 
to remember those who have helped and encouraged Harold and me along our 
life's way, our ancestors, our parental families, our daughters, Barbara 
Coates and Lesley Alexander, their children and their childrens ' children, 
our colleagues, associates and friends, including members of the longitudinal 
studies, "our partners in the study of human lives." 

Biographical material assuredly has historical value, and especially for 
a field of study which is relatively young. Chance, luck, being in touch with 
and being touched by the spirit of the times, directs an individual's life 
course. To make those elements of my history part of the record is the 
purpose here, in the foregoing oral history. 

Reviewing Present and Past in Middle Life [Eichorn, et^ a^, 1981], Bob 
and Pat Sears have written: "From the first generation of researchers only 
Mary Cover Jones has contributed to this volume. Life-Span Research uses up 
the lives of researchers as well as subjects." But what a glorious life 
experience it has been for all of us! And what good fortune to have grown 
up, along with Harold Jones, in the field of Child and Human Development. 
(The current term, Life-Span Development, indicates the direction the field 
has taken.) 

When Suzanne Riess first came to my home for the taped interviews , I 
started off blithely adlibbing to her questions without much preparation or 
forethought. Though the process has come to an end, I am now "conditioned" 
to delve into records formerly slighted, to recall important impressions, 
significant events, appreciations by colleagues, students, friends. Doing 
so, I find additional evidence of Harold's creativity in his letters and poems. 
There is always more beyond.' 

Willa Baum, the head of the oral history office, visualized the proposed 
endeavor in these terms: "We have in you [Jones]" (as she believed) "a unique 
source of chronicling the history of Child and Human Development and the growth 
studies for which your Institute and Harold Jones became internationally known." 

I am abashed to view my meager deliverance in the light of her hopes, but 
it is good to have some of my descendants (yes, unto Kathryn Pauli, my eleven- 
year-old great-granddaughter) assure me they are looking forward to reading 
this story. That assuages the feeling of regret in writing Finis to the under 
taking, and it is to them that I dedicate this history. 

Mary Cover Jones 

January 1983 
Berkeley, California 



109 



APPENDICES 



110 

Appendix A 



Tlk llnsMuik of Human Development 

/I 

fortieth Anniversary Award 

J 

to 



Mara CoMer 

ts 

for 

her disttiinuiislhed contribution to the 



studu of human development 

<^y ' 

11969 
University of California 





/ 



Chancellor Actinq Director 



MARY COVER JONES - A player of many parts in the Institute's history - charming hostess and helpmate 
to her husband, who for 25 years was the Institute's Director a distinguished scientist in her own 
right: Her rare sensitivity and perceptlveness of significant areas of research In developmental 
psychology has led to her making multiple distinguished contributions to the field of human develop 
ment her early research on developmental patterns of children; her work on conditioning of infants; 
the effects of differences in rates of maturing on personality development; and her deep understanding 
of children, especially the Junior High School Age. As a Professor of Education, she was able to 
transmit refreshingly her understanding of child development to the teachers of the future. In 1968, 
with Lois Stolz, she received the highest honor we have to bestow on developmental psychologists, 
the G. Stanley Hall award for her distinguished contribution to developmental psychology. We, her 
friends, rejoice at this opportunity to add our own accolade. 



Ill 

Appendix B 



G. STANLEY HALL AWARD, DIVISION 7, 
AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION, 1968 

to 

MARY COVER JONES 



Our divisional award for outstanding contributions to developmental 
psychology could not be more fittingly awarded than to Mary Cover Jones. For 
almost half a century, across the age span from infancy through middle age, 
and on both sides of this continent, she has been a pioneer in research on 
emotional and social development. 

Her early series of experiments on the development and elimination of 
fears are among the most widely cited in the entire psychological literature. 
In 1950 the first of an innovative group of studies by Dr. Jones and her col 
laborators on the behavioral correlates and long-term consequences of early 
and late maturing appeared. Only a few years ago Dr. Jones' presidential ad 
dress to this division on that topic extended the range of predictors and 
predictions examined. Among her other pioneering contributions are a report 
in 1926 on the development of behavior patterns, such as visual pursuit, dur 
ing infancy; use of the "baby-party" technique ten years before its commonly 
recognized introduction; a classic paper on the junior high school age; and 
work on adolescence, including functional analysis of colloquial speech, peer 
group recognition, and secular trends in interests and attitudes. Dr. Jones' 
current research deals with the developmental antecedents of drinking 
behavior. In addition, she is an active member of the staff of the intergen- 
erational longitudinal study recently initiated at the Institute of Human 
Development at the University of California, Berkeley. 

Mary and Harold Jones produced the first educational television course on 
developmental psychology, and she was the first invited participant in a simi 
lar program subsequently offered by the University of Minnesota. As a profes 
sor in the School of Education, Dr. Jones taught undergraduate sections in 
developmental psychology known not only for their breadth and depth, but also 
for their liveliness. Her graduate seminar in social development enjoyed a 
comparable reputation and attracted students from a number of disciplines. 

The Division on Developmental Psychology does itself honor in presenting 
to Mary Cover Jones the G. Stanley Hall Award. 



112 

Appendix C 

M.C. Jones -1- November 1982 



CURRICULUM VITAE 

j_. Identifying Information 

Date sheet for: Mary Cover Jones 
Date of birth: September 1 , 1896 
Place of birth: Johnstown, Pennsylvania 
Age : 86 

Marital status: Widow 

2 children 

6 grandchildren 

6 great-grandchildren 

2_. Academic Training 

. College: Vassar College (1915-1919) A.B., 1919 

Columbia University (1919-1920) M.A., 1920 
Columbia University (1920-1926) Ph.D., 1926 

High School: Johnstown High School, Johnstown, Pennsylvania 

J_. Professional Experience 

1920 Assistant Psychologist, New York City Children's 

Hospital. Group and individual tests of ability and 
achievement. 

1920-21 Teacher, Ungraded Classes, New York City School System. 
Taught class of emotionally disturbed children 
ages 8-12. 

1921-22 Lecturer, Women's Medical College, Philadelphia. 
1921-23 Psychologist, Commonwealth Fund Preschool Survey. 

1923-25 Research Associate, Columbia University, Institute of 
Child Welfare Research. 

1925-27 Rockefeller Fellow in Child Development, Columbia 
University Institute of Child Welfare Research, 
National Research Council. 



M.C. Jones -2- November 1982 



1927-28 Lecturer, Parent Education, State Department of 
Education, California. 

1929-present Research Associate, Institute of Child Welfare (now 
Institute of Human Development), University of Cal 
ifornia. 

(Salary from Laura Spelman Fund, 1929-36; from General 
Education Board Grant to Oakland Public Schools, 
1936-39; from General Education Board to University, 
1939-48. Served without salary, upon the expiration 
of this grant) . 

1936 Lecturer, Oregon State College Summer Session. 

1944 Lecturer, Utah Agricultural College Summer Session. 

1946-60 Lecturer in Department of Psychology, University of 
California. 

1947-49 Lecturer, University of California Summer Session for 
Training in Family Life, Health and Social Relations. 

1948-75 Correspondence course on Child Psychology (Psychol 
ogy XB 112), University Extension, University of 
California. 

1949 Lecturer, Child Development, In Service Training 

Program for Social Workers, Alameda County Welfare 
Commission. 

1951-75 Correspondence course on Adolescence (Psychology 
XB 113), University Extension, University of 
California. 

1952 In charge, Child Psychology Television Course, 

University Extension, University of California. 

1952-55 Assistant Professor in Department of Education, 
University of California, Berkeley. 

1955-59 Associate Professor in the Department of Education, 
University of California, Berkeley. 

1959-60 Professor in the Department of Education, University 
of California, Berkeley. 

1961-65 Research Associate, Institute for the Study of Human 
Problems, Stanford University, Stanford, California. 

1963 Visiting Professor of Child Development, Mills College. 



M.C. Jones 



-3- 



November 1 982 



1969-present 



Consultant, Intergenerational Studies, University of 
California, Institute of Human Development. 



4. Public Service 



1933 



1942-45 
1947 
1947 
1947 

1948 

1948-51 
1949 

1949-50 

1950 

1950 

1951 

1951 
1951 

1951 



Member, Executive Committee, National Nursery School 
Association. Delegate from Pacific Coast Nursery 
School Association to National Association for Nursery 
Education, Toronto, Canada. 

Member, Committee on Children in War Time, Berkeley 
Civilian Defense Program. 

Member, Advisory Committee, Berkeley Mental Health 
Association. 

Member, Interdisciplinary Conference, Culture and 
personality. Viking Fund, New York. 

Advisory Committee, Children's Bureau, Federal 
Security Agency (Clearinghouse Services for Research 
in Child Life). 

Member, Board of Directors, National Committee for 
Parent Education. 

Member, Bay Area Vassar Club Scholarship Committee. 

Chairman, Committee on Nursery School Standards, State 
Department of Education. 

Lecturer on Child Development , San Francisco Family 
Life Institute. 

Consultant, Russell Sage Foundation on studies of 
adoption. 

Section Leader, Today's child in his family and com 
munity. California Youth Authority Workshop (published 
by California Youth Authority, 1950, pp. 39-45). 

Section Leader, Youth and the family, San Francisco 
Family Life Education Committee. 

Member, Berkeley Y.W.C.A. Teen Age Committee. 

Member, Planning Committee and Delegate to Workshop on 
Adoption, University Extension, June 1951. 

Co-author, Report of Study Group on Adoption, Alameda 
County Council of the League of Women Voters. 



M.C. Jones -4- November 1982 



1951 Representative to State Citizens' Committee on Adoption 

from Alameda County Committee, Los Angeles, May 1951 

1951 Member, Alameda County Citizens' Committee on Adoption. 

1952 Consultant, University Explorer Radio Program, May 18, 
1952, Children for Adoption. 

1952-60 Advisor, Pi Lambda Theta (Educational Honor Society). 

1961-62 Chairman, Committee on Fellows, Division of Develop 
mental Psychology, American Psychological Association. 

1962-63 Chairman, Membership Committee, Society for Research 
in Child Development. 

1963-64 Consultant, Endocrinology Division, Program on 

Longitudinal Research, Scripps Clinic and Research 
Foundation. 

1975 Consultant, Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental 

Psychiatry. 

_5_. Recognitions 

1926 Sigma Xi. 

1926 Delta Kappa Gamma. 

1946 Diploma in Counseling and Guidance, American Board of 

Examiners in Professional Psychology. 

1946 Leader, Conversation-Contact Hour, American Psychological 

Association. 

1952 Kappa Delta Pi. 

1952 Pi Lambda Theta. 

1960 President, Division of Developmental Psychology, 

American Psychological Association. 

1968 G. Stanley Hall Award, Division of Developmental 
Psychology, American Psychological Association. 

1969 Award, Institute of Human Development, Fortieth 
Anniversary. 



M.C. Jones 



-5- 



November 1982 



6_. Membership in Professional Organizations 

Fellow, American Psychological Association 

Member, Western Psychological Association 

Member, California state Psychological Association 

Member, Society for Research in Child Development 

Fellow, Gerontological Society 



_? Addresses and Papers at Professional Meetings (Selected) 

Conditioning and Sixty-second Annual Meeting 

reconditioning: An experi- of the National Education 



1924 



mental study in child 
behavior 

The use of psychological 
measures in the nursery 
school 



The emotional development 
of the child 

Address by invitation 



The needs of the 
adolescent 



Recent Research in Child 
Development 

Safeguarding the child's 
personality 



Wholesome recreation in 
childhood 

Problems of the freshman 
counselor 



Techniques in the case 
study of adolescents 



Association 



Delegate, Pacific Coast 
Nursery School Association, 
National Association fo.r 
Nursery School Education, 
Toronto, Canada 

National Association for 
Nursery Education, St. Louis 

National meeting of American 
Home Economics Association, 
Seattle 

University of California, 
Agricultural Extension 
Conference 

Pacific Coast Nursery School 
Association 

California Congress of Parents 
and Teachers Convention, 
San Francisco 

Progressive Education 
Association, Los Angeles 

Talk to Junior Counselors, 
Wheeler Hall, University of 
California, Berkeley 

Collaborative Center, 
University of Chicago 



Oct. 1933 



Oct. 31, 1935 
1936 

Jan. 4, 1938 
Feb. 4, 1938 



May 23-27, 
1938 



August 1938 
Apr. 3, 1940 

May 1940 



M.C. Jones 



-6- 



November 1982 



Differences in adolescent 
sex role as revealed by 
colloquial speech 

Address by invitation 



Physical factors related 
to personality 

Presidential Address: 
Psychological correlates 
of somatic development 

A study of drinking 
patterns and personality 
correlates 

Correlates and antecedents 
of adult drinking patterns 



Invited Paper: 
Longitudinal studies of 
aging: The California 
longitudinal studies 

Adolescent antecedents 
of drinking patterns 
in women 

Invited Address: 
Albert, Peter, and 
John B. Watson 

The history of child 
development 

Therapeutic approches to 
personality change 

Keynote Speaker: A 1924 
pioneer looks at behavior 

therapy 



The history of child 
development 



Western Psychological 
Association 



National meeting of American 
Home Economics Association, 
San Francisco 

Society for Research in 
Child Development, Berkeley 

American Psychological 
Association, Division 7, 
Los Angeles 

Commonwealth Club, 
San Francisco 



Paper presented at Western 
Psychological Association 
meeting, Honolulu 

International Congress of 
Gerontology, Vienna, Austria 



Society for Research in 
Child Development, Santa 
Monica 



Wright Institute 



The William James Center, 
Wright Institute 

Conference on Behavior 
Therapy: Fifty Years of 
Progress, 1924-1974, 
Philadelphia 

Western Psychological 
Association, Los Angeles 



1947 
1950 

1963 
Aug. 1964 

April 1965 
June 1965 



June 27- July 2, 
1966 



March 1969 



First Annual Southern 1969 
California Congress on Behavior 
Modification, Los Angeles 



Feb. 1974 
Oct. 1974 
Nov. 1974 



April 1976 



M.C. Jones 



-7- 



November 1982 



The history of child 
development: A personal 
report 

Invited Address: 
John B. Watson 



Invited Address: 
Reminiscences 



Invited Conversation 
Hour: Find your roots 
meet the ancients 

Discussant, Symposium: 
John B. Watson's life, 
times and work 

Participant, Symposium: 
Women in the history of 
psychology 



Department of Psychology, 
University of California, 
Santa Cruz 

American Psychological 
Association, Division 26, 
Toronto , Canada 

Southern California Behavior 
Modification Conference, 
Los Angeles 

Society for Research in Child 
Development, Los Angeles 



Jan. 1977 



Aug. 1978 



Feb. 16, 1979 



Mar. 16, 1979 



American Psychological Assoc- Aug. 27, 1981 
iation, Los Angeles 



American Psychological Assoc- Aug. 28, 1981 
iation, Los Angeles 



J3. War Services 
Committees 
State Advisory Committee for Day Care for Children. 

State Advisory Committee to Office of Civil Defense, Coordinator, 
Child Care Services in Wartime (representing Committee for Training 
of Preschool children) . 

Northern California Committee for the Care and Training of Preschool 
Groups, Advisory to Committee on Health, Welfare and Consumer Interests, 
State Defense Council (Chairman). 

California Committee for Mobilization of Trained Volunteers for Care of 
Young Children in Defense Areas. 

Advisory Committee, Alameda County Charities Commission, Child Care 
Survey. 

Berkeley Defense Council subcommittee on Care of Children in Wartime 
(Chairman, Care of School Age Section). 

The Berkeley Defense Council subcommittee on Recreation. 
Advisory Committee, Girl Reserves, Berkeley Y.W.C.A. 



M.C. Jones -8- November 1982 



Member, Assistance Section, Public Welfare Division, Berkeley Defense 
Council. 

Advisory Committee, Care of Children of Working Mothers, to 
San Francisco War Manpower Commission. 

Oakland Community Committee on Nursery Schools. 

Advisory Committee, Mills College Intensive Training Course for 
Directors of Child Care. 

West Coast Committee, National Student Relocation Council. 



Talks on Child Care programs, Conferences, Radio, etc. 

Mills College Conference on Child Care. "Parent Education in a Child 
Care Program," March 1943. 

Northern California Conference on Child Care Services, called by State 
Department of Education, January 1943- 

P.T.A. Radio Series "War Nerves and Our Children," April 1943. 

Alameda County P.T.A. Assembly. Talk on Child Care Facilities, 
June 1942. 

Leader, A.C.E. Workshop, "Developing Nursery Schools to Meet Community 
Needs," November 1942. 

Talk to Community Service Group, University Y.W.C.A. Community Plans 
for Care of Children in Wartime, March 1942. 

Talk to San Francisco Golden Gate Kindergarten Association, "How to 
Safeguard My Child from Fear of War." 

Participant: Hearing before the State Senate Interim Committee on 
Economic Planning, Senators Kenny and W. Presiding. 

Discussion Leader, C.I.O. Conferences on Women in Industry, 
San Francisco, Care of Children of Working Mothers. 

Participant, Round Table Discussion Day Care for Children of Working 
Mothers, Child Welfare League of America. First Western Conference 
at California Conference of Social Workers, San Francisco, 
April 1942. 

Speaker at Hearing Sponsored by Mental Hygiene Association on 
Child Care Bills up before the Legislature, January 1943- 



M.C. Jones -9- November 1982 



Classes 

University of California Department of Education, Course on Care 
of Children in Wartime, Summer Session, 1942. 

Organized Course for Berkeley Y.W.C.A. Girl Reserves on Care of 
Young Children. 

Child Care 300. University of California Department of Education, 
July-October 1943; October-March 1944; March- June 1944. 



121 Appendix D 

Publications - M.C. Jones -1- 



PUBLI CATIONS 

Mary Cover Jones 

Institute of Human Development 

University of California 

Berkeley, California 

Jones, M.C. The elimination of children's fears. Journal of Experimental 
Psychology, 1924, T_, 382-390. 

Jones, M.C. A laboratory study of fear: The case of Peter. Pedagogical Sem 
inary, 1924, 21, 308-315. 

Jones, M.C. Conditioning and reconditioning: An experimental study in child 
behavior. Sixty-second Annual Meeting of the National Education Associa 
tion, 1924, 62, 575-580. 

Jones, M.C. A study of the emotions of preschool children. School and So 
ciety, 1925, 31, 755-758. 

Jones, M.C. Conditioning and unconditioning emotions in infants. Childhood 
Education, 1925, 1, 317-322. 

Jones, M.C. The development of early behavior patterns in young children. 
Pedagogical Seminary and Journal of Genetic Psychology, 1926, 4_, 33. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. A study of fear. Childhood Education, 1928, 5_, 
136-143- 

Jones, M.C. Fear. California Monthly, December 1928, 2-4. 

Jones, M.C. Treating fears at home. California Parent-Teacher , December 
1929, . 

Jones, M.C. The nursery school in relation to the health of the preschool 
child. Hospital Social Service Magazine, 1930, _2J_, 142-148. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Genetic studies of emotions. Psychological Bul 
letin, 1930, 27, 40-64. 



Publications - M.C. Jones -2- 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Growth of mind. California Monthly, April 1930, 

22-25- 

Jones, M.C. The prevention and treatment of children's fears. In V.F. 
Calverton & S.D. Schmalhausen (Eds.), The new generation. N.Y.: Macau- 
lay, 1930, pp. 445-464. 

Jones, M.C. & Prentiss, S.W. The observation of food habits in young chil 
dren. Childhood Education, 1930, 7_, 14-17. 

Jones, M.C. The child's emotions. Proceedings of the Midwest Conference on 
Character Development. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, Feb. 1930. 

Jones, M.C. hat experiment shows. Child Study, 1931, 8., 224-227. 

Jones, M.C. Conditioning children's emotions. In C. Murchison (Ed.), A hand 
book of_ child psychology. orcester, Mass.: Clark University Press, 
1931; London: Oxford University Press, 1931, pp. 71-93- 

Jones, M.C. The period of adolescence. California Parent-Teacher, April 

1932, J_3 and 25. 

Conrad, H.S. & Jones, M.C. A two-year record of attendance and colds in a 
nursery school. Child Development, 1932, 3., 43-52. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Discovering all about things. Child Study, 1932, 
U), 67-68. 

Jones, M.C. Neo-natal behavior. The Medical and Professional Woman ' 3 Jour 
nal, 1933 (Dec.), 362-364. 

Jones, M.C. Emotional development. In C. Murchison (Ed.), _A handbook of_ 
child psychology (2nd ed.). Worcester, Mass.: Clark University Press, 

1933, pp. 271-302. 

Tryon, C. McC. & Jones, M.C. Consistency and constancy of judgments of per 
sonality traits by sixth and seventh grade children. Psychological Bui- 



Publications - M.C. Jones -3- 

* 

letin, 1933, 30, 602. (Abstr.) 

Jones, M.C. A program for the measurement of adolescent personality. Psycho 
logical Bulletin, 1934, 31 , 582. (Abstr.) 

Jones, M.C. The new child's introduction to the regime of the nursery school. 
Report of Proceedings, Pacific Coast and Rocky Mountain States Institute 
for the Orientation of State Supervisors of Emergency Nursery Schools. 
Berkeley, Cal.: 1934, Part V, p. 18. (Abstr.) 

Jones, M.C. Leisure time activities of adolescents. Psychological Bulletin, 
1935, 3, 538. (Abstr.) 

Carter, H.D., Conrad, H.S., & Jones, M.C. A multiple factor analysis of 
children's annoyances. Journal of Genetic Psychology, 1935, 47, 282-298. 

Jones, M.C. & Burks, B.S. Personality development in childhood. Monographs 
of the Society for Research in Child Development, 1936, _1_, 205. 

Stolz, H.R. , Jones, M.C. & Chaffey, J. The junior high school age. Universi 
ty High School Journal, 1937, 15, 68-72. 

Carter, H.D. & Jones, M.C. Vocational attitude patterns in high school stu 
dents. Journal of Educational Psychology, 1938, 29, 331-334. 

Jones, M.C. Guiding the adolescent. Progressive Education, 1938, 1 5 , 605- 
609. 

Jones, M.C. Child Development XVI. Adolescence. In W.S. Monroe (Ed.), En 
cyclopedia of Educational Research. N.Y. : Macmillan, 1941, pp. 170-182. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Attitudes of youth toward war and peace. Califor 
nia Journal of Secondary Education, 1941, 16, 427-430. 

Jones, M.C. The interests of adolescents. Psychological Bulletin, 1941, 38 
(8), 738. 

Bayley, N. & Jones, M.C. Some personality characteristics of boys with re- 



Publications - M.C. Jones -4- 

s 

tarded skeletal maturity. Psychological Bulletin, 1941, 38_ (?), 603. 
Conrad, H.S. & Jones, M.C. Some results from an "Annoyance Inventory" in a 

cumulative study of adolescents. Psychological Bulletin, 1942, 39 475- 

476. (Abstr.) 

Jones, M.C. The I.C.. Interest Record. Institute of Child Welfare, Univer 
sity of California, 1944, p. 63. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Problems in child development. National Parent- 
Teacher, 1946, 4J_ (4), 17-19- 
Jones, M.C. A functional analysis of colloquial speech among adolescents. 

The American Psychologist, 1946, J_, 252-253- 
Jones, M.C. Differences in adolescent sex roles as revealed by colloquial 

speech. American Psychologist, 1947, 2_, 407. 
Jones, M.C. Adolescent friendships. American Psychologist, 1948, 3_, 353- 

(Abstr.) 
Jones, M.C. Adolescent development and the junior high school program. The 

High School Journal, 1949, 32, 237-239. 
Jones, M.C. Attitudes toward family living. Journal of Home Economics, 1949, 

41_ (9), 494-496. 
Jones, M.C. Factors associated with prominence in extra-curricular activities 

at the high school level. American Psychologist, 1949, .4, 251. (Abstr.) 
Jones, M.C. & Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to behavior. 

Journal of Educational Psychology, 1950, _4_1_, 129-148. 
Jones, M.C. Adolescence. Encyclopedia of Educational Research. N.Y.: Mac- 

millan, 1950 (rev.ed.), pp. 18-22. 
Jones, M.C. and Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to 

behavior. In R.G. Kuhlen and G.G. Thompson, Psychological Studies of Hu- 



Publications - M.C. Jones -5- 

man Development. New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1952, pp. 40-48. 
Reprinted from Journal of Educational Psychology, 1950, 41 , 129-148. 

Jones, M.C. Adventures in television. California Monthly, October 1952, 23- 
25, 59-64. 

Jones, M.C. & Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to behavior. 
In J.M. Seidman (Ed.), The adolescent; A book of readings. New York: 
Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 149-166. Reprinted from Journal of Educational 
Psychology, 1950, 41_, 129-148. 

Jones, M.C. & Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to behavior. 
In Martin and Stendler (Eds.), Readings in child development. New York: 
Harcourt, Brace, 1954. Reprinted from Journal of Educational Psychology, 
1950, 41_, 129-H8. 

Jones, M.C. Rocking chair education. Vassar Alumnae Magazine, December 1955, 
17-21. 

Jones, M.C. The later careers of boys who were early- or late-maturing. 
Child Development, 1957, 28, 113-128. 

Jones, M.C. The later careers of boys who were early- or late-maturing. Amer 
icana, (Tokyo, Japan: American Embassy Cultural Exchange), 1957, _2_ (10), 
78. Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 113-128. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. Child Development, 1957, 28, 
243-256. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Growth and behavior in adolescence. Oakland, Cal.: 
Pacific Rotaprinting Company, 1957. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. The behavior- inferred motivations of late- and 
early-maturing boys. Child Development, 1958, 29, 61-67. 



Publications - M.C. Jones -6- 

t 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Adolescence - You are different. Chicago: Comp- 
ton, 1958, pp. 1-28, Booklet No. 41. 

Jones, M.C. A study of socialization patterns at the high school level. 
Journal of Genetic Psychology, 1958, 93., 87-111. 

Jones, M.C. & Mussen, P. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of early- and late-maturing girls. Child Development, 1958, 29, 
491-501. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. Americana, (Tokyo, Japan: 
American Embassy Cultural Exchange), 1958, b_, No. 6, 58-70. Reprinted 
from Child Development, 1957, 28. 243-256. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. An interdisciplinary approach to educational 
research. Educational Horizons, June 1958. 

Jones, M.C. A comparison of the attitudes and interests of ninth-grade stu 
dents over two decades. Journal of Educational Psychology, 1960, 51 , 
175-186. 

Jones, M.C. A laboratory study of fear: The case of Peter. In M.L. Haimowitz 
and N.R. Haimowitz (Eds.), Human Development; Selected Readings. New 
York: Cromel, 1960, 708-716; 1973 (3rd ed.), 534-538. Reprinted from 
Pedagogical Seminary, 1924, 31 , 755-758. 

Jones, M.C. The later careers of boys who were early- or late-maturing. In 
M.L. Haimowitz and N.R. Haimowitz (Eds.), Human Development; Selected 
Readings. New York: Crowell, 1960, pp. 443-457. Reprinted from Child 
Development, 1957, 28, 113-128. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. Individual differences in early adolescence. In 
N.B. Henry (Ed.) , Yearbook of the National Society for the Study of Edu- 






* 



Publications - M.C. Jones -7- 

cation (individualizing Instruction), 1962, 61 , Part 1, 126-144. 

Jones, M.C. & Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to behavior. 
In J.F. Rosenblith and . Allensmith (Eds.), The causes of behavior; 
Readings in child development and educational psychology. Boston: Allyn 
and Bacon, 1962, pp. 41-42. Reprinted from Journal of Educational 
Psychology, 1950, _4J_, 129-1 48. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. In J.E. Rosenblith and W. Al 
lensmith (Eds.), The causes of behavior: Readings in child development 
and educational psychology. Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1962, pp. 43-51- 
Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 243-256. 

Jones, M.C. & Mussen, P. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of early- and late-maturing girls. In J.A. Dyal (Ed.), Readings 
in psychology; Understanding human behavior. McGraw-Hill, 1962, pp. 
339-346. Reprinted from Child Development, 1958, 29, 492-501. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. A study of fear. In . Dennis (Ed.), Readings in 
child psychology. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1963, pp. 
111-116. Reprinted from Childhood Education, 1928, 5_, 136-143- 

Jones, M.C. & Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to behavior. 
In W. Dennis (Ed.), Readings in child psychology (2nd ed.). Englewood 
Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1963, pp. 407-418. Reprinted from Journal 
of Educational Psychology, 1950, 41 , 129-148. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. In C.B. Stendler (Ed.), Read 
ings in child behavior and development. New York: Harcourt, Brace, 
1964, pp. 418-428. Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 243-256. 



Publications - M.C. Jones -8- 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. In P. Mussen and J. Kagan 
(Eds.), Readings in child development and personality. New York: Harper 
& Row, 1965, pp. 419-435- Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 
243-256. 

Jones, M.C. Psychological correlates of somatic development. Child Develop 
ment, 1965, 36_, 899-911. 

Jones, M.C. A report on three growth studies at the University of California. 
The Gerontologist, 1967, 1_, 49-54. 

Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. A study of fear. In W.J. Meyer (Ed.), Readings in 
the psychology of childhood and adolescence. Waltham, Mass.: Blaisdell, 
1967, pp. 308-314. Adapted and abridged from Childhood Education, 1928, 
I, 136-143. 

Jones, M.C. & Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to behavior. 
In W.J. Meyer (Ed.), Readings in the psychology of childhood and adoles 
cence. Waltham, Mass.: Blaisdell, 1967, pp. 64-71. Adapted and 
abridged from Journal of Educational Psychology, 1950, 41 , 129-148. 

Jones, M.C. Personality correlates and antecedents of drinking patterns in 
adult males. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 1968, 32, 
2-12. 

Jones, M.C. A report on three growth studies at the University of California. 
In W.R. Bailer, Readings in the psychology of human development (2nd 
ed.). New York: Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1969, pp. 105-122. Reprinted 
from The Gerontologist, 1967, 7_, 49-54. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. In W.R. Bailer, Readings in 



Publications - M.C. Jones -9- 

the psychology of human development (2nd ed.). New York: Holt, Rinehart 
& Winston, 1969, pp. 361-371. Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 
28, 243-256. 

Jones, M.C. Psychological correlates of somatic development. In W.R. Bailer, 
Readings in the psychology of human development (2nd ed.). New York: 
Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1969, pp. 378-379. Reprinted from Child 
Development, 1965, 36, 899-911. 

Jones, M.C. The elimination of children's fears. In D. Rosenhan and 
P.London, Theory and research in abnormal psychology. New York: Holt, 
Rinehart & Winston, 1969, pp. 367-373- 

Jones, M.C. A laboratory study of fear: The case of Peter. In D.M. Gelfand 
(Ed.), Social learning in childhood. Belmont, Cal.: Brooks-Cole, 1969, 
pp. 151-158. Reprinted from Pedagogical Seminary, 1924, 31 , 308-315. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. In H.E. Fitzgerald & J.P. 
McKinney, Developmental psychology. Homewood, 111.: Dorsey Press, 1970, 
pp. 460-473. Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 243-256. 

Jones, M.C. Psychological correlates of somatic development. In H.E. 
Fitzgerald & J.P. McKinney, Developmental psychology. Homewood, 111.: 
Dorsey Press, 1970, pp. 474-485. Reprinted from Child Development, 1965, 
36_, 899-911. 

Jones, M.C. Personality antecedents and correlates of drinking patterns in 
women. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 1971, 36, 61-69. 

Mussen, P. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of late- and early-maturing boys. In H. Munsinger (Ed.), Read 
ings in child development. New York: Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1971, 



Publications - M.C. Jones -10- 

. 

pp. 44-50. Adapted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 243-256. 

Jones, M.C. A comparison of the attitudes and interests of ninth-grade stu 
dents over two decades. In R.E. Muus, Adolescent behavior and society. 
New York: Random House, 1971, pp. 152-171. Reprinted from Journal of 
Educational Psychology, 1960, 51 , 175-186. 

Jones, M.C., Bayley, N., Macfarlane, J.W., & Honzik, M.P. (Eds.), The course 
of human development. Valtham, Mass.: Xerox College Publishing, 1971. 

Jones, M.C. Psychological correlates of somatic development. In M.C. Jones, 
et al. (Eds.), The course of human development. Waltham, Mass.: Xerox 
College Publishing, 1971, pp. 272-278. Adapted and abridged from Child 
Development, 1965, 36 , 899-911. 

Jones, M.C. Changes in the attitudes and interests of adolescents over two 
decades. In M.C. Jones, et al. (Eds.), The course of human development. 
Waltham, Mass.: Xerox College Publishing, 1971, pp. 259-264. Adapted 
and abridged from Journal of Educational Psychology, 1960, 51 , 175-186. 

Jones, M.C. A study of socialization patterns at the high school level. In 
M.C. Jones, et al. (Eds.), The course of human development. Waltham, 
Mass.: Xerox College Publishing, 1971, pp. 246-251. Adapted and 
abridged from Journal of Genetic Psychology, 1958, 93, 87-111. 

Jones, M.C. & Bayley, N. Physical maturing among boys as related to behavior. 
In M.C. Jones, et al. (Eds.), The course of human development. Waltham, 
Mass.: Xerox College Publishing, 1971, pp. 252-257. Adapted and 
abridged from Journal of Educational Psychology, 1950, 41 , 129-148. 

Jones, M.C. & Mussen, P. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal at 
titudes of early- and late-maturing girls. In M.C. Jones, et al. (Eds.), 
The course of human development. Waltham, Mass.: Xerox College Publish- 












. 



Publications - M.C. Jones -11- 

% 

ing, 1971, pp. 162-165. Adapted and abridged from Child Development, 
1958, 29, 491-501. 

Jones, M.C. Psychological correlates of somatic development. In J.P. Hill & 
J. Shelton, Readings in adolescent development and behavior. Englewood 
Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1971, pp. 22-32. Reprinted from Child 
Development, 1965, 36. , 899-911. 

Jones, M.C. The later careers of boys who were early- or late-maturing. In 
I.E. Weiner and D. Elkind, Readings in Child Development. New York: 
John Wiley, 1972. Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 113-128. 

Jones, M.C. A laboratory study of fear: The case of Peter. In M.L. 
Haimowitz & N.R. Haimowitz (Eds.), Human development: Selected readings 
(3rd ed.). New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1973, pp. 534-538. Reprinted 
from Pedagogical Seminary, 1924, 31 , 308-315. 

Jones, M.C. The later careers of boys who were early- or late-maturing. In 
M.L. Haimowitz & N.R. Haimowitz (Eds.), Human development; Selected 
readings (3rd ed.). New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1973, pp. 600-606. 
Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 113-128. 

Jones, M.C. Der abbau von furcht bei kindern. In von M. Hofer & F.E. Weinert 
(Eds.), Padagogische Psychologie. Frankfurt am Main, Germany: Fischer 
Taschenbuch Verlag, 1973, pp. 37-47. Reprinted in German from Journal of 
Experimental Psychology, 1924, ]_, 383-390. 

Jones, M.C. Eine experimentelle untersuchung der furcht: der fall Peter. In 
von M. Hofer & F.E. Weinert (Eds.), Padagogische psychologic. Frankfurt 
am Main, Germany: Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag, 1973, pp. 28-36. Reprint 
ed in German from Pedagogical Seminary, 1924, 31 , 308-315- 

Jones, M.C. A report on three growth studies at the University of California. 



Publications - M.C. Jones -12- 

In D.C. Harles and . R. Looft, Readings in psychological development 
through life. New York: Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1973- Reprinted from 
The Gerontologist, 1967, 7_, 49-54. 

Jones, M.C. Albert, Peter, and John B. Watson. American Psychologist, 1974, 
29, 581-583. 

Jones, M.C. The elimination of children's fears. In D. Rosenhan and P. Lon 
don, Theory and research in abnormal psychology (2nd ed.). New York: 
Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1974, pp. 388-394. Reprinted from Journal f 
Experimental Psychology, 1924, 7., 382-390. 

Jones, M.C. A 1924 pioneer looks at behavior therapy. Journal of_ Behavior 
Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry, 1975, 6., 181-187. 

Jones, M.C. A laboratory study of fear: The case of Peter. In D.M. Gelfand, 
Social learning _in childhood (2nd ed.). Monterey, Cal.: Brooks Cole, 
1975, pp. 148-154. Reprinted from the Pedagogical Seminary, 1924, 3j_, 
308-315- 

Mussen, P.H. & Jones, M.C. Self-conceptions, motivations, and interpersonal 
attitudes of late- and early-maturing boys. In J.J. Conger, Contemporary 
issues in adolescent psychology. New York: Harper & Row, 1975, pp 4- 
16. Reprinted from Child Development, 1957, 28, 243-256. 

Jones, M.C. The elimination of children's fears. In J. Willis & D. Giles, 
Great experiments in behavior modification. Indianapolis, Ind.: Hackett 
Publishing Co., 1976. Reprinted from Journal of Experimental Psychology, 
1924, 1, 382-390. 

Jones, M.C. A laboratory study of fear: The case of Peter. In J. Willis & 
D. Giles, Great experiments in behavior modification. Indianapolis, 
Ind.: Hackett Publishing Co., 1976. Reprinted from Pedagogical Sem- 



Publications - M.C. Jones -13- 

-. 
inary, 1924, 31, 308-315. 

Jones, M.C. Review of E.X. Freed, An alcoholic personality? Contemporary 

Psychology, 1980, 25, 502. 
Jones, H.E. & Jones, M.C. A study of fear. In A.D. Fernald & P.S. Fernald, 

Manual to accompany basic psychology (4th ed.). New York: Houghton, 



Mifflin Co., 1979- Reprinted from Childhood Education, 1928, 5., 136-143- 
Jones, M.C. Adolescent behavior as a precursor of adult behavior and health. 
In D. Eichorn, L. Bayer, J. Brooks, N. Haan, M. Honzik, M. Jones, F. Lin- 
son, N. Linson, H. Peskin, A. Skolnick, J. Stroud and D. Whissell-Buechy 
(Eds.), Recent advances in gerontology. International Congress Series 
No. 469. Proceedings of the XI Congress of Gerontology. Tokyo, 1978, 
pp. 515-516. 

Tapes 

History of participation in the Child Development Movement. In series of Oral 
History Interviews conducted by M.J.E. Senn, National Library of Medicine, Na 
tional Institutes of Health, U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare, 
Bethesda, Maryland, October 1968. (Copy in Bancroft Library, University of 
California, Berkeley). 



134 

Appendix E 



Mary Cover Jones: Feminine as Asset 

Deana Dorman Logan 
Holy Names College 



Mary Cover Jones has played many roles during her career as a 
psychologist researcher, professor, wife of the eminent psychologist 
Harold E. Jones, and friend to some of the great names in the field such as 
Erik Erikson and Nevitt Sanford. Included in the paper is a discussion of three 
of her primary areas of research the case study of Peter which provided a 
preview of behavior modification, evidence from longitudinal studies re 
garding the problems of early and late maturing, and work on personality 
antecedents in problem drinkers. In addition, her part in the establishment of 
the major longitudinal studies at the University of California is reported. 
Finally, her successful application of traditionally feminine strengths to these 
many professional undertakings is discussed. 

At first glance, 82-year-old Mary Cover Jones attracts you with 
her warmth. As you get to know her she reinforces this impression 
with her thoughtfulness and the support she gives not only to long 
time friends and associates, but also to those of us who are younger 
and newer in the field of psychology. These nurturing qualities are 
her most visible attributes. 

At closer look, though, one finds not only a gracious woman, but 
also a distinguished psychologist. Author of over seventy publica 
tions, she is past President of Division 7 (Developmental) of the 
American Psychological Association (APA), a Fellow of both the APA 
and The Gerontological Society, and recipient of the G. Stanley Hall 
Award, the highest accolade given in developmental psychology. In 



The author is indebted to Nevitt Sanford as well as Mary Cover Jones for help in preparing 
this paper. Generous editorial assistance was provided by Sr. Alice Tobriner. Earlier drafts were 
kindly read by Florine Livson, Ellyn Kaschak, Sr. Maureen Hester, and Sr. June Kearney. Reprint 
requests may be addressed to the author at the Dept. of Psychology, Holy Names College, 
Oakland, CA. 

Psychology of Women Quarterly, Vol. 5(1) Fall 1 980 1 03 

0361-6843/30/1500-0103500.95 1980 Human Sciences Press 




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History of the Institute of Human Development: A Model * 

by Vicki Gieen 

One of the concerns of any science/discipl-ine is to chronicle its own 
unique history: to delineate and examine broad issues, and to describe 
influential institutions and individuals. Over the years there has been 
precedent for examination of historical material relevant to the broad 
issues and descriptive of influential individuals in the field of child 
development (C.D.). Recent renewed interest in such is evidenced in the 
1975 publication of two works: Milton J. E. Senn's, "Insights of the C.D. 
Movement in the United States" and Robert R. Sears' "Your Ancients 
Revisited: . . .". 

In contrast, there is less precedent in the literature for examining 
historical material relevant to C.D. institutions - specifically the C.D. 
institutes. Two published articles have focused upon longitudinal projects 
identified with institutes, but not upon the institutes per se. (See 
Elizabeth Lomax's article on the Institute of Human Development (IHD) as an 
example of the influence of the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial on 
research in C.D. and Jerome Kagan's article on longitudinal programmatic 
research.) To provide a more comprehensive historical view of C.D., there 
is need for material specific to the history of C.D. institutes. 

The project on which this paper is based focused upon the history of 
IHD, an institute which has played a central role in the history of C.D 
Because of the time constraints of a paper presentation'and the lack of 
precedence for such historical material, this paper focuses upon the 
methods used to gather material on che history of IHD. 



*A copy of the interview questions developed by Green is deposited in The 
Bancroft Library. 



142 



METHOD - THE DEVELOPMENT OF MATERIALS AND PROCEDURES 

Historical Data in Print 

_^ ^^___^_^^__ ^ 

Materials - With the permission of IHD's Advisory Board, access was 
provided to all public and selected private printed information. These 

* 

data included all annual reports (1927-1981), all published articles and 
books and selected materials in the director's files. Additionally, some 
participants volunteered perusal of their own private files. 

Procedures - Printed public materials were used to develop an 



historical flo chart displaying references for published materials. 

Printed public materials were also used to develop a list of professional 

- 

and academic, staff affiliated with IHD from its inception to the present 
time. Printed private materials were used where necessary to validate and 
expand upon information provided by participants. 
Historical Data - Oral History Interviews 

Participants - With the assistance of the Associate Director and 
emeriti staff, -a list was compiled that encompassed individuals who had 
served in a multitude of roles at or in relation to the Institute. Refer 
to Table 1 for a list of participants. 

Materials- The initial list of questions was designed based upon the 
interviewer's knowledge of C.D., the C.D. historical literature and reading 
of Institute materials. The questions were edited by several individuals 
who had functioned in a variety of roles at the Institute, and who were 
knowledgeable in the field. Two sets of questions were generated. One set 
was suitable for the oral history interview. These were, related to the 
following topics: issues in C.D., participant's history vis a vis the 
Institute, Institute history. Institute organizational and managerial 
issues, Institute longitudinal studies and related issues, the Child Study 



143 



Center (CSC), relationship to the University, other institutes and the 
fields of C.D. and life span development. The second set was suitable for 
written answers. These were time lines for the field, for the institute, and 
for the participant's own career. 

Procedures* - Materials relevant to procedures used by oral historians 
were surveyed. The decision was made to alter the traditional procedures 
by designing a list of questions to be presented to all participants prior 
to the interview. The original and one copy of a consent letter was mailed 
to each potential participant. No further contact was made until a signed 
copy of the letter was returned, indicating agreement to participate. The 
list of questions was sent in conjunction with confirmation of the 
appointment time set by telephone. Participants were encouraged to answer 
the written questions prior to the interview. The method used during the 
interview was Piaget's clinical method, the general approach taken was 
Rogerian. Participants were encouraged to answer those questions 
appropriate to .their role at 1HD. On occasion, in the style of Piaget's 
method, further questions were posed. The interviews were taped; both 
participant and interviewer had control of the taping. Participants had 
the option to provide untaped answers (several did so) and the option to 
seal their tape(s) for a specified amount of time (no one did so). After 
the interview was completed, if the participant agreed, photographs were 
taken. Tapes were transcribed and mailed to participants for editing. 
Tapes, edited transcripts, and photographs are to be stored in the 
historical archives at IHD. 

*Procedures for 3 of the 35 interviews differed due to participants 
geographic unavailability to the interviewer. 



144 



COMMENTS - OBSERVATIONS 

m 

Methods and Printed Material 

There were two advantages to having. read the public printed material 
prior to initiating the oral history interviews-: 1) Summary material could 
be prepared for later access to specific information; and 2) The process 
provided familiarization with the Institute and Institute history. 
Additionally, perusal of printed material provided information on what data 
was not available for an historical file such that staff lists, vitae and 
flo charts could be prepared for the file. 
Methods and the Interview Process . .. _ 

Institute information written for public consumption was not 
sufficient to provide accurate and complete historical data. Such 
information was supplemented with participant provided information. 
Furthermore, data was easier to obtain orally than by asking participants 
to write answers to questions. The interview format used - the clinical 
method - provided maximum opportunity for elaboration and clarification of 
information. Use of a set of standardized questions was viewed as 
advantageous, but only in conjunction with the option of additional 
questions being raised by the interviewer and the participant. 

Given the focus of some questions and the longevity of ties to the 
Institute, many interviews included aspects of the process of life review. 
Some participants chose to discuss issues such as self worth, consideration 
of life carper and specific career decision?, generativity and 
interpersonal relations that negatively and positively affected their 
professional life. Discussion of such sensitive material required that the 
interviewer not only focus upon data gathering, but upon the interpersonal 
nature of the interview. Also, issues related to confidentiality became 



145 



Names 

Diana Baumrind 
Leona Bayer 
Nancy Bay ley 

Carol Bense 
Jack Block 
Wanda Bronson 
Judith Chaffey 
John Clausen 
Kathryn Eardley 
Dorothy Eichorn 

Glen Elder 
Sanford Elberg 
Erik Erikson 
Rose Fox 
Norma Haan 
Marjorie Honzik 
Carol Hiffine 
Jane Hunt 
Mary Cover Jones . 
Clark Kerr 
Andie Knutson 

Catherine Landreth 
Norman Livson 
Jean Macfarlane 
Vivian March 
Paul Mussen 

Hannah Sanders 
Barbara Scales 
Nathan Shock 
Arlene Skolnick 
M. Brewster Smith 

G. Ed Swanson 
William Tooley 
Read Tuddenham 
Ann Vollmar 



Table 1 

Oral History Interviewees: Names and Position 
at the Institute of Human Development 

Position 



Professional Staff 
Professional Staff Emeritus 
Professional Staff Emeritus 

Emeritus Administrator, Child Study Center (CS 
Director's Secretary 
Faculty Affiliate 
Professional Staff 

Adolescent Longitudinal Study Counselor 
Director, Academic Staff, Faculty Affiliate 
Scientific Illustrator 
Associate Director, Administrator, CSC 
Professional Staff 
Professional Staff 
Emeritus Dean - Graduate Division 
Professional Staff Emeritus 
Administrative Assistant 
Professional Staff 
Professional Staff Emeritus ' 
Professional Staff 
Administrator, CSC 

Professional Staff Emeritus, Faculty Affiliate 
Emeritus Chancellor and President 
Acting Director, Associate Director, 

Faculty Affiliate 
Emeritus Administrator, CSC 
Professional Staff 

Academic Staff Emeritus, Faculty Affiliate 
Director's Secretary 
Director, Acting Director, Associate 

Director, Academic Staff, Faculty Affiliate 
Head Teacher CSC 
Head Teacher CSC 
Professional Staff 
Professional Staff 
Director, Associate Director, 

Faculty Affiliate 
Director, Faculty Affiliate 
Professional Staff, Advisory Board 
Acting Director, Faculty Affiliate 
Administrative Assistant 



146 



critical . 

The Interviewer - Data Gatherer - 

* 
For many reasons it was important that the interviewer was perceived 

as a knowledgeable but neutral individual. The person who completes such a 

f 

history ideally should have "insider status" without being an "insider". 
Prior to the oral history interview, the interviewer must be available for 
a sufficient amount of time to observe, learn and to be trusted by members 
of the institution, without engaging in activities that would alter ones 
neutrality. 

Vicki Green, Ph.D. 

- - 

Talk for the Society for Research in 
Child Development 



147 



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152 
INDEX Mary Cover Jones 



Alexander, Jane, 30, 40, 41 

Alexander, Lesley Jones, 34, 38, 41, 65 

Almy, Millie, 81 

Amherst College, 33, 34, 36, 42, 44 

Arnstein, Flora Jacobi and Lawrence, 97 

Bailey, Edna, 35, 65, 75 

Bayley, Nancy (Nancy Bayley Reid), 57, 66, 67, 70, 71, 73, 76, 91, 92, 99, 100 

Blaisdell, Josephine and Allen, 67 

Block, Jack, 78 

Burdick, Edith, 58 

Caldwell, Katherine, 96, 97 

Campbell, William Wallace, 71 

Carter, Harold, 69, 75 

Chaffey, Judith, 64, 79, 83, 86, 92, 93, 102, 103 

Chase, Stewart, 43 

Chautauqua summer institute, 8-10, 22, 24, 25, 27 

child development studies, 35, 55, 85 

Clausen, John, 77 

Coates, Barbara Jones, 29, 30, 41, 53, 54, 67 

Columbia University, 22, 23, 36-38, 50, 54 

Conrad, Herbert, 73-75, 78, 93 

Cover family, 4-8 

Cover, Charles Blair, 4, 6, 7, 19, 28 

Cover, John Higson, 8, 10, 12, 16, 17, 21, 23, 24, 26 

Earley, Mildred, 69 

Eichorn, Dorothy, 100, 101 

Elkus, Elizabeth, 96 

Erikson, Erik, 43, 44, 59, 91, 95-98, 102 

Ethical Culture, 20 

Fisher, Margaret and Ralph, 67 

Frank, Lawrence, 35, 48, 64, 70, 71, 105, 106 

Frenkel-Brunswick, Elsa, 44, 98, 103 

Freud, Sigmund, 43-45, 51, 54 

Frost, Robert, 33, 34 



Gates, Arthur and Georgina, 54 
Gesell, Arnold L. , 57 



Hamilton, Gordon van Tassil, 43, 44 
Hayes, Margaret Calder, 86 



153 



Hecksher Foundation, 51-53, 56-58, 60 

Higson family, 1-4 

Higson, Carrie Louise, 1 , 2, 7, 10, 28 

Hill, Anna Louise Cover, 9, 24-28, 61 

Honzik, Marjorie, 101, 102 

Hsiao, H. H. , 76 

Institute of Child Welfare (now Institute of Human Development): 35, 38, 44-46, 
63, 70 

Berkeley Growth Study, 99, 100 
Guidance Study, 59, 77, 95, 101 
Nursery School, 71-74 

Oakland Growth Study, 63, 70, 77, 79-91, 102, 103 
Sixty-Year Olds, 58, 59, 79-85, 106, 107 



Jones family, 29-32, 35 
Jones , Elisha Adams , 29 , 31 
Jones, Harold Ellis, 29-49, 55 ff. 

and nature, 32, 55 

and religion, 33 

and writing, 32, 38-41, 47, 55, 56 



Landreth, Catherine, 74, 106 

Laura Spelman Rockefeller Fellowships, 35, 58, 63, 64, 67, 69, 85 

Livson, Florine, 78, 85 

Logan, Deana, 1, 49, 62, 85 

Lomax, Elizabeth, 36, 56, 102 

loyalty oath, 42, 43 

Lozoff, Marge, 97 



Macfarlane, Jean, 43, 59, 67, 70, 71, 76, 84, 91, 100, 101 

Macgowan, Kenneth, 43 

Maier, Guy, 37 

Meiklejohn, Alexander, 42 

Morgan, Agnes Faye, 74 

Murphy, Gardner, 54 

Mussen, Paul, 71, 76, 104 



New School for Social Research, 36, 37 
nursery schools, 45, 70-73 



pacifism, 21 , 22 

Parker, Cornelia and Carleton, 37 

Present and Past in Midlife, 59, 68a, 71, 79, 84, 102, 104 

psychology studies, 15, 16, 22, 23 

psychoanalysis, 43, 44 



154 



Raynor, Rosalie (Rosalie Raynor Watson), 22, 23, 46, 47, 51, 52 
Reid, John, 66, 100 
religion, 6, 19, 20, 60 
Rowell, Margaret, 96 



Sanford, Hevitt, 1, 40, 44, 47, 95, 96, 103, 104 

Schevill, Margaret, 93, 104-106 

Sears, Robert, 69 

Senn, Milton, 50, 51, 56, 62, 100 

Shinn, Millicent, 57 

Shock, Nathan, 74, 77, 79, 91, 93, 103 

socialism, 19, 20, 22 

Sproul, Robert Gordon, and John, 67, 72, 106 

Stolz, Herbert, 63, 67, 71-74, 79, 80, 99 

Stolz, Lois Meek, 50, 52, 65, 74, 106 

Stratton, George, 39 

Swanson, Ed, 74 



Terman, Lewis M. , 69 
Thomas, Norman, 21 , 60-62 
Tolman, Edward Chase, 42, 43 
Tooley, Bill, 72, 106 
Tryon, Caroline, 78, 93 



University of California, Berkeley 
Department of Education, 63, 75 
Department of Home Economics, 74 
Department of Physiology, 74 
tenure, 74, 75 



Vassar College, 12-23, 49, 68 



WPA (Works Progress Administration), 87, 94 

Warner, Lois, 13, 18, 37 

Washburn, Margaret Floy, 15, 16, 22 

Watson, James B. , 46, 47, 51 

Watson, John B. , 22, 23, 37, 45-47, 50-54, 57 

Woodworth, Robert S. , 23, 35-37, 54, 55, 64, 65 



Suzanne Bassett Riess 

Grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. 
Graduated from Goucher College, B.A. in 
English, 1957. 

Post-graduate vork, University of London 
and the University of California, Berkeley, 
in English and history of art . 

Feature writing and assistant woman's page 
editor, Globe-Times , Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. 
Free-lance writing and editing in Berkeley. 
Volunteer work on starting a new Berkeley 
newspaper . 
Natural science docent at the Oakland Museum. 

Editor in the Regional Oral History Office 
since I960, interviewing in the fields of 
art, cultural history, environmental design, 
photography, Berkeley and University history.