14. GEORGE V APPENDIX No. 3 A. 1923
APPENDIX
TO THE
SIXTIETH VOLUME
OF THE
JOURNALS OF THE HOUSE OF
COMMONS
DOMINION OF CANADA
JANUARY-JUNE SESSION, 1923
PRIXTFD ,BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT
OTTAWA
Y. A. ACLAND
PIINTFR TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY
1923
13-14 GEORGE V APPENDIX No. 3 A 1923
PROCEEDINGS
(Revised)
OF
THE SELECT SPECIAL COMMITTEE
OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
TO INQUIRE INTO
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS
OTTAWA
F. A. ACLAND
PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJISTY
1924
13-14 (EOR(E V APPENDIX No. 3 A. 19:)3
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Pages
]VIembers of Committee .............................. v
Members of Sub-Committees ............................ v
Orders of Reference ................................ vi
Reports of Committee ................................ vii to xxiv
lIinutes of Proceedings .............................. xxv to lxii
Agenda .......................................... lxiii
List of Witnesses ..................................
List of Exhibits .................................. lxvii
Viinutes of Evidence ................................ 1 to 1832
Exhibits printed as Appendix to Evidence .................. 1833 to 2193
Index to Evidence .................................. lxviii
13-14 GEORGE V APPENDIX No 3 A. 1923
MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE
A. R. ],chlASTER, Chah'man
Bouchard, Georges
Caldwell, T. W.
Clifford, L. O.
Elliott, William
Gardiner, Robert
Grimmer, R. W.
Hammell, W. J.
LanctSt, Roch
McKay, Matthew
McMurray, E. J.
Milne, Robert
Munro, E. A.
Robinson, E. W.
Sales, Thomas
Sinclair, Hon. J. E.
Stansell, J. L.
Sutl erland, Donald
Tolmie, Hon. S. F.
S. R. Gordon, Clcrk to Committee
SUB-COM MITTEES
Production.--Messrs. Bouchard (Chairman), Grimmer, Munro, Elliott and
McMurray.
Marketing.--Messrs. Tolmie (Chairman), Caldwell, Milne, Hamme]l and
Clifford.
Relative Prices.--Messrs. Sales (Chairman), McKay, Robinson, Stanell
and Sinclair.
Rural Credits.--M"zsrs. Gardiner (Chairm.qn, McMaster, Sutherland and
LanctSt.
vi
SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
ORDERS OF REFERENCE
t![ossE oF COMONS,
WEDNESDAY, 28th February, 1923.
Resolved.--That a Special Commite be appointed to inquire into Agricul-
tural Conditions, and hat the following Members do compose the said Com-
mittee:--Messrs. Bouchard, Caldwell, Clifford, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner,
Grimmer, Hammell, LanctSt, IcKay, McMaster, McMurray, Milne, .lunro,
Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queens), Stansell, Sutherland and Tolmie.
Attest.
W. B. NORTHRUP,
Clerk o] the Commons.
WEDNESDAY, 7th March, 1923.
Ordered.--That the said Committee be given leave to report from time to
time, and power to send for persons, papers and records.
Attest.
W. B. NORTHRUP,
Clerk o] the Commons.
WEDNESDAY, 7th March, 1923.
Ordered.--That the said Committee be granted leave to sit while the House
is in session, and that they be authorized to have their proceedings and evidence
printed from day to day for the use of the Members of t.e said Committee, and
that Rule 74 relating thereto be suspended.
Atest.
W. B. NORTHRUP,
Clerk o] the Commons.
FRIDAY, 9th March, 1923.
Ordered.--Tbat the quorum of the said Committee be five members.
Attest.
W. B. NORTHRUP,
Clerk o] the Commons.
viii SPECIAL COMMITTEE
THIRD REPORT
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
][OUSE OF COMMONS
WEDNESDAY, 14th March, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inqui e into Agricultural Conditions beg
leave to present the following as their Third Report:-
Your Committee beg to submit the following Resolution which they have
unanimously adopted, viz.:--
" That, in the opinion of tb_e Committee, it is advisable and in the
interests of agriculture in this country, that a full and searching inquiry
should be nmde into all aspects of tl e grain trade of Canada; and that
for this purpose a Royal Commission should be appointed clothed with full
powers, not only from the Dominion Government, but also from all
Provinces desiring to co-operate in such inqui.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
A. R. McMASTER,
Chairman.
Third Report concurred in, March 16, 1923.
(See Journals at page 203).
FOURTH REPORT
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
MONDAY, 23rd April, 1923.
The Spe(.ial Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural Conditions
beg leave to present the following as tb.eir Fourth Report.
Your Committee beg to submit the following Resolution which they have
unanimously adopted, viz:--
"Among the various subjects which have been investigated by your Com-
mittee, they desire to make a report on the question of ocean freights. It is not
easy to over-emphasize the importance of cheap ocean transportation to the
Canadian farmer.
Whatever advantage may have accrued to the Canadian people by the
millions of money spent on the development of our internal transportation
system--the building of railways, the digging of canals, the deepening of rivers--
such advantage may be in a large measure nullified if freight rates from our
ocean ports to foreign countries arc fixed at such figures as to absorb the savings
which these expenditures have obtained.
Your Committee are of the opinion that upon the regular steamship lines
trading from Canadian ports the price of transportation service is determined
neither by the law of supply and demand, nor on the basis of cost plus a reason-
able profit, but that a combine exists among the various shipping companies,
which combine is known as the North Atlantic and U. K. Conference Eastward-
bound.
The headquarters of this organization are at 8-10 Bridge Street, :New York,
and it includes in its membership a very great number, if not all, of the principal
steamship companies operating regular lines out of North Atlantic ports.
According to the witness, Mr. W. H. Chase, Atlantic freight rates are made
in :New York ile first Thursday in every month. (See evidence of Mr. Chase,
page 350). To this North Atlantic Conference belong nearly all, if not all,
of the regular steamship lines running from Montreal, including the Canadian
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS
APPENDIX No. 3
That the transportation business as far as concerns ocean liners is very
largely in the hands of rings or conferences is a matter which admits of no
possible successful contradiction. That such rings exist is certain; whether
they are on the whole beneficial or not to transportation interests and the public
generally is a matter for debate. How best they can be controlled has engaged
the attention of legislators in Great Britain, in the United States, and in our
country for many years.
The very fabric of our modern life is woven from the interchange of goods
of widely sundered nations. The exchange of such goods is effected in large
part by the steamships of the world, which have, according to Mr. J. A. Salter,
who during t.be war acted as Chairman of the Allied Maritime Transport Execu-
tive, never exceeded in number about 8.000, while those employed in manning
them amount to some 450,000 and those in building them to perhaps 250,000.
The total value of all the ocean-going ships in the world before the war was
not more than $1,500,000,000 less than the capital invested in two British rail-
way companies. The total amount of steel sunk in the ships lost during war
was about 5,000,000 tons. which is not more than 12 per cent of the steel produc-
tion of America in a single year.
These 8.000 vessels, apart from coastal craft, are divided into liners--that
is to say ships which run between regular ports on regular time-tables--and
tramp vessels, which go from port to port as freight presents itself for carriage.
Various estimates have been given as to the division of steam vessels into these
two classes. Certainly not more than half, and according to some estimators,
considerably less than half, are of the liner type. The demarcation between
them is by no means a fixed one. Tramps may sometimes act as liners; liners
may sometimes act as tramps.
In our study of the situation we are indebted to the labours of the Royal
Commission on Shipping Rings appointed by the British Government in 1906
and whose report was presented in 1909 and issued in the form of a British
blue book under No. C.D. 4668.
The repor contains the findings of the majority, who looked more or less
with favour on the formation and operation of shipping rings, and of the min-
ority, who looked with disfavour upon them.
To the majority report Mr. Madison, a Labour man, made a strong reserva-
tion, desiring it to be clearly understood that he did not in the least subscribe
to the view that shipping rings or conferences were either necessary to, or in
the interests of, trade in the United Kingdom and the Colonies. Those who
signed the majority report were, in considerable numbers, connected with ship-
ping interests, while those who signed the minority report do not appear to
have had such direct or indirect interest in the matter.
FINDINGS OF THE MAJORITY OF THE COMIIISSIONERS
To this end the majority of the Commissioners made the following recom-
mendations:-
Their main recommendation was that the shippers and the merchants in a
given trade should form themselves into an association, so that they might be
able to present a united front to a conference or shipping ring when any con-
troversy arose.
They further recommended that failing an amicable arrangement of diffi-
culties between the shippers' association and the conference bein arrived at,
the matter should be referred to the Board of Trade. a British Governmental
Department corresponding in a certain degree to our Department of Trade and
Commerce, which Department should be empowered:--
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS Sii
APPENDIX No. 3
beneficial to the community "; and that " the benefits of the organization which
they (the shipping companies) adopt for the purposes of their business must
be valued, mainly with reference to its effect, not on the shipp!ng companies,
but on the general public," they proceed to examine the arguments which have
been adduced in support of the system of shipping rings.
Having come to conclusions as to the value of such rings quite dissimilar to
those of the majority, they sum up their findings, thirteen in number, as
follows :--
" (1) The conference system with the deferred rebate--the natural evolu-
tion of a highly organized trade dealing -ith customers for the most part
scattered or disorganized, has created on almost all the chief ocean routes a
monopoly the limitations upon which are in many cases illusory, and which
generally tend to decline;
" (2) The system was introduced in the first instance with the object of
raising ratcs or preventing their fall and dim:.nishing competition;
" (3) It has been successful in raising or keeping up rates;
"{4) The public have, as a rule, to pay higher rates of freight than they
would pay in an open market;
" (5) The system has been injurious to 'tramps ', the strongest element in
the British hiercantile Marine, and it leads as to them to waste and to higher
rates of freight;
" (6) The systen tends to waste in various other directions owing to the
manner in which the rings are constituted;
" (7) There is no satisfactory evidence that the saving in cost, if there be
any, under the system of sh!pping rings, exceeds the waste which is due to that
system;
" (9) The system tends to inflate the amount of tonnage and consequently
the amount of capital invested upon which interest has to be paid;
" (10) It has dininished or tends to diminish the ports of sailing;
" (11) It gives a country such as the United States, in which the systen
is illegal, an advantage as compared with the United Kingdom;
" {12) It has catt, ed in the case of South Africa diversion of British Trade;
" (13) There is no evidence that it has appreciably increased regularity of
sailing or greatly improved the quality of steamers; but it has tended to bring
about equality and stability of rates."
(It should be noted that No. 11 of the above does not now represent the
actual facts.)
Although the minority have come to a different conclusion as to the advan-
tages said to flow from the existence of shipping rings than have the majority,
their recommendations do not, to any great extent, vary from those of the
majority.
The minority lay down the general principle that such a monopoly and
system as they have described should be subject to control. The control should
be sought through a " system of conciliation and limited supervision by the
Board of Trade." "We should prefer," they say, "to rely in the first instance
upon the effect of giving facilities which do not now exist, for bringing promptly
to the attention of Parliament any serious abuses, and tipon organization being
met to counter organization; 'conference' of shippers dealing, if possible, on
something like equal terms with 'conferences' of shipowners."
It will therefore be seen that the Commissioners agreed as to the advisa-
bility of some sort of control to prevent the quasi-monopolies enjoyed by the
hipping rings or conferences being turned to the d:.sadvantage of the public.
The minority would, however, give greater opportunities for appeal to the
Board of Trade than were suggested by the maiority. They state: "We rely
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS xv
APPENDIX No. 3
report upon, methods and practices, rates and charges of ocean carriers doing
business between ports in the United Kingdom and ports in the Dominion, as
well as the charges of terminal companies or port authorities in both places,
through which traffic passed, as well as to investigate into insurance charges or
other expenses which had to be borne by the shippers from both countries. It
was further rcpresented that such commission should recommend what, if any,
legislation the Commission deemed advisable should be passed by the Imperial
Parliament, by the Parliament of Canada or by both.
In answer to the representations made by Sir Henry Drayton, the British
Board of Trade declined to create such commission, on the ground that the
Dominions Royal Commission (**) were already investigating the matter of
freight rates, which subject had been referred to them, but that his Majesty's
Government was prepared, if desired, to communicate with the Dominions Royal
Commission for the purpose of informing them of the desire of the Canadian
Government that the subject of shipping freights between Canada and the
United Kingdom should be investigated with as little delay as possible.
Sir Henry Drayton expressed his opinion that if the Dominions Royal
Commission could take the matter up and make an interim report on it, if
necessary, he did not think the inquiry could be in better hands.
On receiving this advice from the British Government Sir Henry Drayton
waited on the Chairman of the Dominions Royal Commission and learned
from him that the question of transportation within the empire was one which
that Commission had already taken some evidence upon, and that the Com-
mission would be in Canada the next August.
The report of Sir Henry Drayton then proceeds as follows:--
INVESTIGATION NECESSARY
"Notwithstanding the information which I received from the Conference
lines, I am still of the view that an investigation should be held.
For the western movement, the lines forming part of the Conference which
are the Allen Line, the Canadian Northern Steamship Railway Lines, the Cana-
dian Pacific Railway Steamship Lines, the Cunard Line, the Dominion Line,
the Donaldson Line, the Furness Line, the Manchester Liners, and Thompson
Line, issue a tariff for the different seasons, the tariff being drawn to include
general minimum rates on practically all, or at least on the chief commodities
moving. These minimum rates, so-called, are practically the maximum rates
that the lines obtain, and the shipper is in a position to know, as in my view
he should always know, what the rate will be on a given commodity within a
given period. No such rates, are issued in so far as the eastern movement is
concerned, but weekly lists are issued from time to time so that it may be
entirely impossible for the Canadian shipper to know what his rates on flour
or wheat may be in a month's time. I have been unable to at all convince the
Conference that this is an improper practice in so far as the eastern movement
is concerned. The advanced reason why the admitted convenience can be given
to the shipper shippin west is that there is never a scarcity of room on the
western movement, while there may be a scarcity of space on the eastern move-
ment. The position of the companies shortly is that, with the higher amount
of business offering, and the possibility of shortage in boat accommodation, the
companies should be allowed to take advantage of the shortage and charge a
greater rate for handling the large than would be charged for handling the
**(Note) The Dominions Royal Commission were appointed by the British Government on the lSth April,
1912. Among other objects they were instructed to inquire into and report upon the trade of Canada,
Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Newfoundland with the United Kingdom, each other and the rest
of the world.
xx SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Mr. Lubin writes:--
"Ocean carriage is a public utility; it should be under public control.
"Concentrate the business of ocean carriage in the hands of shipping rings,
and what have we got? We have also got a tyranny pure and simple, for the
shipping ring may likewise exert social, economical and political pressure, pres-
sure exerted not merely over a few farmers, a few exporters or importers of
the staples, but over all the farmers of the land, and over all the people of the
land. Nor is this all, as the business of ocean carriage is from country to
country; international, this pressure can be exerted not merely over one country
but over every country."
Further at Page 7 he states:--
"During the London conference some of the shipowners contended that
it was not they but these 'shippers' of the staples, these speculators, who favour
the present system of unfixed rates. Indeed, it was stated that so far as the
shipowners are concerned, they would be as strongly in favour of fixed rates on
'bulk freight' as manufacturers and merchants are for fixed rates on 'package
freight.' This is an important admission for our case.
"As to the speculators in the staples, the 'shippers,' it is easy to see why
they want unfixed rates for ocean carriage. The element of uncertainty through
unfixed rates and the rare opportunities for price manipulation which it affords,
are in reality the stock-in-trade of these speculators. Remove this uncertainty
and the speculator would then be transformed into a mere broker; he would
then be rendered harmless.
"Under the present system ocean freight rates are jumped highest when the
bulk of the crop is changing hands, thus correspondingly lowering the home
price at the time when the speculator is buying. With a large proportion of the
crop bought and stored in warehouse and elevator and for the time being out
of the reach of changing hands, ocean freight rates are down, when, as a result,
the home price of the staples is forced up; and this is the time when the specu-
lator lets out the product to the consumer. So then, under this system of unfixed
rates for ocean carriage, this system of uncertainty, the speculator seems to
play a game of 'heads I win, tails you lose.'"
Further on in this pamphlet, Mr. Lubin quotes :Mr. Hippwood, the Assistant
Secretary of the Marine Dept. of the British Board of Trade, to this effect:--
"The question of ocean freight is a world problem and one of very. great
importance to all countries. As a world problem, it cannot be settled satis-
factorily by any one nation, nor by any one interest acting alone."
He also quotes Mr. Alexander, Chairman of the Committee of the House of
Representatives on Merchant Marine matters:--
"It is true that our Government would be impotent to enforce reasonable
rates or stabilize rates on farm products in international trade, in the absence of
an international agreement ..... It is an international problem, and can only
be solved by international agreement."
Mr. Lubin's views may be summarized in the words of his statement to the
American Congress. which are as follows:--
"(1) The staples have a world's price, which is the basis for their home
price.
"(2) The price for the entire production in the home market, whether for
export or for home use, is directly influenced by the cost of ocean carriage.
"(3) The home price is also indirectly influenced by the cost of ocean
carriage in foreign ports.
"(4) /t present ocean carriage rates on the staples are not given out for
stated periods in advance; they are given out from day to day and from hour
to hour; thus giving rise to uncertainty and fluctuations.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS xx
APPENDIX No. 3
"(5) This uncertainty affords tile opportunity for tile operations of the
speculator.
"{6) These operations result in an economic injury to the producer and
to tile consumer.
"(7) Tile remedy should be equitable rates, terms and conditions fixed for
stated times, and made known in advance.
" (8) This should be done through an international Commerce Commis-
sion. '
Your Committee, in view of the foregoing and of the evidence adduced
before them and referred to in a previous interim report, are of the opinion
that action is desirable to control shipping rings or conferences.
It is suggested that the Canadian representatives in attendance at the next
meeting of the International Institute of Agriculture should be given authority
to see that the matter is thoroughly discussed, in order to discover whether an
international system of control is feasible through such agency.
In view of the fact that a very great deal of the shipping coming to Cana-
dian ports is British shipping: concurrent action by the British authorities is
respectfully suggested. Tile m tter might well be made a subiect for discus-
sion and consideration at the xt Imperial Economic Conference.
Meanwhile it would appear wise to recommend that the Government
through one of its departments--we suggest the Department of Trade and Com-
merce-should entertain complaints from shippers of unfair or oppressive treat-
ment by ocean carriers and should hold investigations publicly or privately
into such complaints.
Publicity is of itself both a deterrent , and in a measure, curative of,
unfair practices. These. like certain unwholesome growths, best flourish in the
dark. It would be hoped that by action of the sort suggested possible abuses
in a measure might be obviated through the encouragement that such action
would give to the steamship lines that desire to act fairly with the Canadian
public and the discournement which such action would afford to those com-
panies which operate on different lines.
Seamship companies would not regard with equanimity the holding of
an investigation and the letting in of light upon any unfairness in rates charged,
and the fact that such investigations are facilitated would first of all tend to
deter conference lines from establishing unfair rntes, and secondly encourage a
line which unwillingly had adopted unfair rates, to break away from the con-
ference and adopt ates of its own.
There is, however, another method which we would earnestly recommend
to the careful consideration of the Government.
The Canadian people are the owners of 67 ships. Some of these are of fair
though not large size. Your Committee suggest that a certain number of
these ships might be selected to be operated in coniunction with our National
Railway Lines, that the freight rates on such steamers could be established on
the cost of carriage plus a reasonable profit based upon the real. as opposed to
the cost, value of the ships. If these ships are of the size and type which can
be economically and efficiently run in conjunction with the National Railways
(and on these points your Committee have taken no evidence) the following
desirable objects would be obtained: The National Railways would be enabled
to grant through Bills of Lading on a transportation system by land and by
water altogether under their own control, the Canadian people would be able to
obtain transportation facilities at reasonable and known rates; tile service thus
given on the ocean would tend to maintain rates on a reasonable basis and
would act as a deterrent to the charging of unreasonable rates bv other lines
and finally the knowledge obtained by the Government, as to the actual cost
of ocean transportation, would aid it in determining whether rates charged by
other lines are fair and reasonable.
xxii SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Should it appear that there are no ships or not a sufficient number of ships
belonging to the Canadian Government Merchant Marine suitable for this
service then it would appear that wisdom would dictate the disposal of some of
the smaller ships to enable ships of the class required to be secured.
Your Committee have learned that action along the above lines is being
taken bv the Government and that six boats of the Canadian Government Mer-
chant 5Iarine are now being equipped with suitable fittings for the carrying of
cattle to Great Britain.
We recommend that in order to determine whether such boats are com-
mercially adapted for this trade ve" careful account should be kept of their
expenses and cost of operation with a view of determining, as far as can be
done, the cost of carrying cattle from Eastern Canadian ports, including Quebec
and Montreal, to Great Britain, so that it may be ascertained, with the greatest
precision possible, whether or not the present ocean rates on cattle are reason-
able and fair or can be reduced in the interests of the cattle-raisers of this
country without unfairness to the ocean carriers.
The whole of which is respectfully submitted.
A. R. McMASTER,
Chairman.
Fifth Report concurred in, June 26. 1923.
(See Journals at page 569.
SIXTH REPORT
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
TUESDAY, 19th June, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural Conditions beg
leave to present the following as their Sixth Report:--
RURAL CREDITS
Your Committee desire in this report to dual briefly with the question of
rural credits.
As to the necessity of credit on more advantageous terms to the farmers
of this country, there can be little room for difference of opinion. Well selected
and secured farm loan. should be among the safest and most attractive of
investments, while the security offered through the pledging of non-perishable and
readily marketable farm products is certainly comparable to that offered by
merchants and manufacturers. Notwithstancing these fac_, the agriculturist
of Canada, in certain parts at least, pays considerably more for long term credits
secured by his property than many of his competitors in other lands, as well as
more than is paid by many of his fellow citizens in other walks of life for
similar accommodation.
Your Committee are of the opinion that after consideration along the lines
hereinafter respectfully suggested, the Government should promote the obtaining
by the agriculturists of this country of long term credits, as well as intermediate
credits, and that action should be taken, and if necessary, legislation enacted to
this end at the earliest possible date.
The attention of your Committee has been forcibly brought to the fact
tha the operations of the Federal Farm Loan Board system in the United
States offer, through the :National Farm Loan Associations, the Federal Land
x.xiv SPECIAL COMMITTEE
SEVENTH REPORT
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
TUESDAY, 19th June, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into agricultural conditions
beg leave to present the following as their Seventh Report:
Your Committee have held 80 sittings on 45 separate days, have heard the
evidence of 103 witnesses, and have bad 223 exhibits filed with them; but have
not been able to make a complete inquiry into the matters submitted to them
under the Order of Reference.
In view of the important and widespread information collected during the
sittings .of your Committee and the impossibility of digesting and properly
weighing the evidence in the tine at their disposal before prorogation, your
Committee respectfully recommend that a similar Committee be appointed
at an early period of the next session of Parliament.
Your Committee beg to submit herewith for the information of the House
a printed cop)" of their proceedings and the evidence given before the Commit-
tee, and also certain documents and articles subnittcd to the Committee but
not contained in the proceedings.
Your Committee recommend that the Orders of Reference, reports, pro-
ceedings and the evidence given before the Committee, together with a suitable,
synoptic index, to be prepared by the Clerk of thc Comnittee, be printed as
an appendix to the Journals of the House of the present session; and that the
whole be subdivided under the subjects of,
(a) Production,
(b) Transportation, Distributing and Marketing,
(c) Rural Credits,
(d) Relation of Prices obtained by the Agriculturalists as Producers and
paid by them as Consumers,
and printed in blue book form for distribution, and that Rule 74 be suspended
in reference thereto.
All of which is respectfully submitted
A. 1. McMASTER,
Chairman.
Seventh Report Concurred in, June 26, 1923.
{See Journals at page 569).
13-14 GEORGE V APPENDIX No. 3 A. 1923
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
}OJSE OF COMMO:NS,
COMiIITTEE ROOM 1O. 424,
EDNESDAY, March 7, 1923.
The Committee met at 10.00 o'clock A.M. Present :--Messieurs Bouchard,
Caldwell, Clifford, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, ttammell, McKay, McMaster,
Milne, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's), Sutherland and Tolmie.--14.
The Clerk read the Order of Reference as follows:--
Special Committee on Agrwultural Conditions
WEDNESDAY, February 28, 1923.
Resolved, That a Special Committee be appointed to inquire into
Agricultural Conditions, and that the following Members do compose
the said Committee :--Messrs. Bouchard, Caldwell, Clifford, Elliott
(Waterloo), Gardiner, Grimmer, ttammell, Lanct6t, McKay, McMaster,
McMurray, hlilne, Muuro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's), Stansell,
Sutherland and Tolmie.
W. B. :NORTttRUP,
Clerl o1 the Commons.
Attest.
hioved by Mr. Robinson that Mr. Clifford be Chairman.
Mr. Clifford, having declined the honour, moved, seconded by Mr. Gardiner,
that Mr. McMaster be Chairman, which was unanimously agreed to.
Mr. Mchiaster having taken the Chair, Committee discussed an Agenda
along the lines suggested in a Memorandum prepared by Mr. McMaster. (This
Agenda appears on page lxiii.)
On motion of Mr. Sales:
Ordered, "That the Chairman confer with the Deputy Minister
of Justice re the appointment of a Royal Commission, to examine the
Grain Trade, by concurrent legislation of Dominion and Provinces in
order to avoid the possibility of a challenge on constitutional grounds."
On motion of Mr. Tolmie:
Ordered, " That the words 'of the pure-bred live stock industry;
of health of animals,' be added to paragraph '2' of the 1YIemorandum,
immediately following the words 'live stock marketing'."
On motion of Mr. :Hammell:
Ordered, "That the first matter of investigation be the live stock
industry of Canada including the transportation costs."
On motion of Mr. Elliott:
Ordered, "That this Committee present a report to the ttouse
recommending that leave be granted them to sit while the ttouse is in
xxvi SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
session; and that they be authorized to have their proceedings and such
evidence as may be taken, printed from day to day for the use of the
Members of the Committee and that Rule 74 relating thereto be sus-
pended."
Committee decided to call Dr. J. H. Grisdale, Deputy Minister of Agri-
culture, Mr. H. S. Arkell, Live Stock Commissioner, and any others thought
advisable by the Deputy Minister, to give evidence at the next meeting of the
Committee.
Committee adjourned to meet at 3.30 o'clock P.M. to-morrow, Thursday,
March 8th, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
CO]I]IITTEE ROO.M NO. 268,
TH:RSDAY, March 8th, 1923.
The Committee met at 3.30 o'clock P.M. Present :--Messieurs McMaster,
(Presiding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, Hammell, Mc-
Kay, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queens), Stansell, Sutherland
and Tolmie--15.
Chairman read following Orders of the House.
WEDNESDAY', 7th March, 1923.
Ordered, That the said Committee be given leave to report from
time to time, and power to send for persons, papers and records.
Attest.
W. B. NORTHRUP,
Clerk o. the Commms.
WEDNESDAY, 7th March, 1923.
Ordered, That the said Committee be granted leave to sit while the
House is in session, and that they be authorized to have their proceedings
and evidence printed frown day to day for the use of the Members of the
said Committee, and that Rule 74 relating thereto be suspended.
W. B. NORTHRUP,
Clerk o] the Commons.
Attest.
On motion of Mr. Sales, seconded by Mr. Gardiner:
Ordered, That the Clerk of the Committee be authorized and in-
structed to request the Grain Commissioners to--
1. Prepare a statement showing grades in and out of each of the
_ private terminal elevators since Sample Market Legislation came into
force up to end of August, 1922, and to furnish same to the Committee
by March 31st, I923.
XXVIII
SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
HOUSE OF COMOS,
COI[TTEE RO0 0. 268,
TUESDAY, March 13, 1923.
The Committee met at 3.30 o'clock p.m. Present: Messieurs McMaster
(presiding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Clifford, Elliot (Waterloo), Gardiner, Grim-
mer, Hammell, McKay, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's,
P.E.I), Stansell, Sutherland and Tolmie.--17.
On motion of Mr. Sales, seconded by Mr. Gardiner,
Ordered, That a sub-committee be named by the Chairman to confer
with the reporters and printing bureau with the object of keeping the
Proceedings and Evidence as free from errors as possible.
The Chairman appointed Messrs. Sales, Gardiner and Hammell as a sub-
committee for this purpose.
On motion of Mr. Caldwell, seconded by Mr. Robinson:
Ordercd, That in view of the numerous sittings of this Committee,
the interest taken in the proceedings by the general public and the result-
ant heavy correspondence, the Chairman be empowered to arrange for
an efficient and capable stenographer immediately to assist the Clerk.
On motion of Mr. Sales, seconded by Mr. Hammell:
Ordered, That the Clerk be instructed to secure at once for the use
of the Members of the Committee folders in which to place their notes
and papers, said folders to be as per sample shown.
Mr. J. Stanley hlacLean, Toronto, who had been requested to attend and
give evidence to-day was unable to be present but offered to attend at a later
date. Messrs. John Brown, Galt, and S. P. Kennedy, Winnipeg, who had also
been requested to attend, were prevented from being present through illness.
Mr. Duncan A. Campbell, exporter of live stock, Westmount, Quebec, who
was in attendance, was called, sworn, gave evidence and discharged from
further attendance.
On motion of Mr. Munro, seconded by Mr. Stansell:
Ordered, That Messieurs William Burke, Canada Steamship Lines,
Major Currie, White Star Line, James 'icol, White Star Line, and R. B.
Teakle, Canadian Government Mercantile Marine, all of Montreal, be
summoned to appear and give evidence on Thursday, March 15th, 1923,
at 3.30 o'clock, p.m.
Committee adjourned to meet at 11 o'clock a.m., on Wednesday next,
March 14th, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS x.Jx
APPENDIX No. 3
HOUSE OF COMONS,
COIMITTEE ROOM :NO. 268,
WEDIESDAY, March 14, 1923.
The Committee met at 11.00 o'clock a.m., Present:---Messieurs McMaster
(Presiding), Caldwell, Clifford, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, Hammell, McKay,
Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's P.E.I.), and Tolmie.--13.
The Chairman reported the result of his conference with the Deputy
Minister of Justice, which conference took place as instructed by Resolution of
this Committee dated March 7th, 1923. (The Chairman's complete report
appears in the Minutes of Evidence).
On motion of Mr. Sales, seconded by Mr. McKay.
Rcsolved, That in the opinion of this Committee it is advisable, and
in the interest of agriculture in this country, that a full and searching
inquiry should be made into all aspects of the grain trade of Canada;
and for this purpose a Royal Commission should be appointed clothed
with full powers, not only from the Dominion Government, but also from
all provinces desiring to co-operate in such inquiry.
On motion of Mr. Gardiner, seconded by Mr. Robinson.
Ordered, That the Chairman be instructed to present to the House
a report from this Committee embodying the above Resolution and
asking for the concurrence of the House in this proposal.
On motion of Mr. McKay, seconded by Mr. Elliott.
Ordered, That so soon as the concurrence of the House in the above
recommendation be obtained, the Chairman be, and is hereby, instructed
to confer with the Premier, and to request him to invite the co-operation
in this investigation of the different Provincial Governments, indicating
to the Premier the vital necessity for the utmost dispatch.
Mr. Archibald Leitch, Professor at Ontario Agricultural College, Guelph,
Ontario, who was in attendance, was called, sworn and gave evidence.
Mr. Horace Barton, Professor at MacDonald College, St. Anne de Bellevue,
Quebec, who was in attendance, was called, sworn and gave evidence.
Committee adjourned at 12.55 o'clock, p.m., to meet again at 3.30 o'clock,
p.m.
The Committee resumed at 3.30 o'clock, p.m., the Chairman, Mr. McMaster,
presiding.
Mr. Barton was recalled, concluded his evidence and was discharged from
further attendance.
Mr. Leitch was recalled, concluded his evidence and was discharged from
further attendance.
Mr. G. W. Muir, E.-:perimental Farm, Ottawa, was in attendance in obedi-
ence to summons, but was not called upon to give evidence.
Committee adjourned at 5.30 o'clock, p.m., to meet at 3.3.0 o'clock, p.m.,
on Thursday next, March 15th, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
xxxii 8PEC1AL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
The Resolution introduced by Mr. Robinson on Thursday was further dis-
cussed, and after hearing evidence in the matter from Dr. J. H. Grisdale, Deputy
Minister of Agriculture, was
Ordered, To be laid on the table.
On motion of Mr. Sinclair, seconded by Mr. McKay:--
Ordered, That Messrs. Tolmie, Milne and Hammell be a sub-com-
mittee to study the evidence taken last session before the Railway Rate
Investigation Committee.
On motion of Mr. Milne, seconded by Mr. Gardiner:--
Ordered, That four sub-committees be appointed, the members of
which to be named by the Chairman, to deal with the following matters:--
(a) Transportation, distribution and marketing. (Committee:
Messrs. Tolmie, Hammell, Caldwell, MiIne and Clifford.)
(b) Production (Committee: Messrs. Bouchard, Grimmer.
Munro, Elliott and McMurray.)
(c) Rural Credits. (Committee: Messrs. Gardiner, McMaster,
Sutherland and LanctSt.)
(d) Relation of prices obtained by the agriculturalists, as pro-
ducers, and prices paid by consumers. {Committee: Messrs. Sales,
McKay, Robinson, Stansell and Sinclair.)
The first-named in each case to be Chairman of the sub-committee.
Committee adjourned at 5.45 o'clock, p.m., to meet in Room 268 at 3.30
o'clock, p.m., on Tuesday, March 20, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
COIMITTEE ROOM NO. 268,
TUESDAY, March 20, 1923.
The Committee met at 3.30 p.m. Present :--Messieurs McMaster (pre-
siding), Caldwell, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardincr, Grimmer, Hammell, lkIcKay,
Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's, P.E.I.), and Sutherland.--13.
Mr. W. A. Cunningham, Traffic Manager, Canadian Government Merchant
Marine, Montreal, who was in attendance in obedience to a summons duces
tecem, was called, sworn, gave evidence, and was instructed to be present at the
nex meeting of the Committee
Committee adjourned at 5.45 o'clock, p.m., to meet at 9.30 o'clock, a.m., on
Wednesday next, March 21, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
xxxvm SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Mr. Adelard Fortier, Manager, lk[ontreal Dairy Co., Montreal, Que., who
was in attendance was called, sworn and gave evidence and was discharged
from further attendance.
Committee adjourned at 1.10 o'clock, p.m., to meet at 4.00 o'clock, p.m.,
this day.
Committee reassembled at 4.00 o'clock p.m.
Mr. C. Bourbeau, General Inspector of Cheese and Butter Fa,ories, St.
Hyacinthe, Que., who was in attendance in obedience to summons was called,
sworn and gave evidence and was discharged from further attendance.
Mr. Edward H. Stonehouse, Dairyman, President National Dairy Council
of Canada, Weston, York County, Ontario, who was in attendance in obedience
to summons was called, sworn and gave evidence. Witness retired.
Committee adjourned at 6.15 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 10.30 o'clock
a.m. tomorrow, Friday, April 13th, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOM NO. 268,
FRIDAY, April 13, 1923.
Committee met 10.30 o'clock a.m. Present:--lklessieurs A. R. McMaster
(Presiding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, Grimmer,
Hammell, McKay, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's P.E.I.) and
]'ohnie14.
Chairman read letter from the Manager of the Parliamentary Restaurant
,'e price of apples.
On motion of Mr. hlcKay, seconded by hIr. Sales.
Ordered: That Messers. Isaac E. Pedlow, General Merchant, Renfrew and
A. S. hIoreland, Grocer, Bank street, Ottawa, be called to give evidence before
this Committee on a date to be detennined by the Chairman.
Mr. J. A. Ste. Marie, Superintendent, Experimental Station, Ste. Anne de la
Pocatiere, P.Q., who was in attendance in obedience to summons was called,
sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further attendance.
On motion of Mr. Sinclair, seconded by Mr. hIunro.
Ordered: That hIessers. J. A. Clark, Superintendent, Experimental Farm,
and A. E. Dewar, Farmer and Fruit Grower, both of Charlottetown, P.E.I., be
sumoned to give evidence before this Committee on a day to be set by the Chair-
Committee adjourned at 12.50 o'elock P.M. to meet again at 10.30 o'eloek
A.M., Monday, April 16, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk oJ Committee.
xlii ,SPECIAL CO 'IMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Committee reassembled at 4 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Williams concluded his evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Committee went into executive session. Proposed interim report to
House was further discussed and again laid on the table.
Committee adjourned at 5.50 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 10 o'clock a.m.
Monday, April 23, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
HOUSE OF COMh[ONS,
COMMITTEE RoolI No. 268.
hOIDAY, April 23, 1923.
Committee met at 10 o'clock a.m. Present,--Messieurs McMaster, Pre-
siding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Gardiner, Hammell, McKay, McMurray, Milne,
Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's, P.E.:I.), Tolmie--13.
Mr. R. P. Sparks, Clothing Manufacturer, Hull, P.Q., who was in attend-
ance was called, sworn, gave evidence and was requested to appear before the
Committee again with further information.
Witness retired.
Committee adjourned at 1.15 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 7.30 o'clock
p.m. this day.
Committee reassembled at 7.30 o'clock p.m.
On motion of Mr. Sales, seconded by Mr. Gardiner:
Ordered: That the Clerk be instructed to request Mr. J. S. McLean of the
Harris Abbatoir Co., to forward the prices of the various cuts of pork similar
to the cuts of beef as shown in their price list of April 17, 1923.
Mr. George F. Benson, manufacturer, Montreal, P.Q., who was in attend-
ance was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further attend-
ance.
Committee went into executive session to consider their fourth report to
the House. Discussion followed.
On motion of Mr. McMaster, seconded by Mr. Milne the Repor was
unanimously adopted. (Report appears on page viii.)
Committee adjourned at 11.15 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 10 o'clock
s.m. on Wednesday, April 25, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
xliv SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 192,.3
Committee reassembled at 4 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Wallace 1.. Campbell, Vice-President of Ford Motor Company of
Canada, Limited, Ford City, Ontario, who was in attendance in obedience to
summons, was called, sworn, and gave evidence and was discharged from
further attendance.
On motion of Mr. Caldwell, seconded by Mr. Milne,--
Ordered,--That Messrs. A. B. McCain, Florenceville, N.B., and tI. tI. liar-
field, Hartland, N.B., be summoned to appear before this Committee at 10.30 a.m.
on Tuesday nex% May 1, 1923.
On motion of Mr. Sales, seconded by Mr. Gardiner,--
Ordered,--That hit. John W. leid be paid half of the cost of his expenses
before this Committee.
Committee adjourned at 6.15 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 10 o'clock a.m.
to-morrow, Friday, April 27, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
COMMITTEE ROOM 268,
IOYSE OF COMMONS,
FRIDAY, April 27th, 1923.
Committee met at 10 o'clock a.m.
Present:--Messieurs McMaster (presiding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Clifford,
Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, Grimmer, Hammel, McKay, Milne, Munro, Robin-
son, Sales, Sinclair {Queen's, P.E.I.), Stansell, Tolmie--16.
Chairman directed that letter from Canadian Cottons Ltd., dated Montreal,
25th April 1923, be placed on record. This letter is included in the minutes of
evidence of to-day.
Memorandum of Lethbridge Board of Trade regarding equalization of
freight rates and storage and terminal elevator facilities referred to Sub-Com-
mittee on Transporaon.
Memorandum of conference between the Special Standing Conference Com-
mittee of the Foreign Trade Committee--Atlantic Division and Steamship Apple
Committee representing North Atlantic U. K. freight Conference held at 8-10
Bridge Street, New York City, Thursday, September 28th, 1922, filed as exhibit
No. 91 and included in minutes of evidence of to-day.
Hon. C. M. Hamilton, Minister of Agriculture, Regina, Sask., who was in
attendance was called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 1.05 o'clock p.m., to meet again at 3.30 o'clock
p.m., this day.
Committee reassembled at 3.30 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Charles Gagne, Professor of Agriculture and Economics, Ste. Anne de
!a Pocatiere, who was in attendance in obedience to summons, was called, sworn,
gave evidence and was discharged from further attendance.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS xlv
APPENDIX No. 3
I-Ion. C. M. Hamilton was recalled, concluded his evidence and was dis-
charged from further attendance.
Mr. George Bevington, farmer, Winterburn, Alta., who was in attendance
in obedience to summons, was called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 6.05 o'clock p.m., to meet again at 8 o'clock p.m.,
this day.
Committee reassembled at 8 o'clock p.m., with I-Ion. Mr. Sinclair presiding.
Mr. Bevington concluded his evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Committee adjourned at 9.10 o'clock p.m., to meet again at 10 o'clock a.m.,
Monday, April 30th, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Cleric to Committee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOM NO. 268,
MOIDAY, April 30, 1923.
Committee ]net at 10 o'clock a.m. Present :--Messieurs McMaster (pre-
siding), Boucbard, Ca!dwell, Clifford, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, Grimmer,
Hammell, McKay, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's, P.E.I.),
Tolmie, Stansell---16.
Chairman read letter from Edmonton Board of Trade requesting Committee
to hear their representatives. Clerk was instructed to advise them that Com-
mittee will hear them on mutually satisfactory date.
Mr. Elliott stated he had had a communication from the Hurlbut Stme
Company, requesting to be heard. Clerk was directed to invite this company
to have their representative appear before the Committee.
Clerk was instructed to summon Mr. A. Neil MacLean of St. John, N.B.,
for Tuesday next.
Clerk was instructed to summon Mr. A. G. Farrow, Toronto, Ont., to appear
on Tednesday.
Clerk was instructed to request the Massey-Harris Company; to have their
representative appear before tim Committee on Wednesday nexc, prepared to
furnish comparative costs and prices on farm implemcnt. in Canada and the
United States.
On motion of Mr. Caldwell, seconded by Mr. Milne,
Ordered, That Messrs. Harry Webb and 0. R. Estey, of Woodstock, N.B.,
be summoned to appear before the Committee on Tuesday, May 8.
On motion of Mr. Sales, seconded by Mr. McKay.
Ordered, That the corrections of the Grain Commissioners Report and the
blueprints and information received from the Harris Abattoir Co. Ltd., be
included in our printed report of to-day.
xlvi SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
On motion of Mr. Gardiner, seconded by :Mr. :MeKay,
Ordered, That the Chairman be instructed to draw the attention of the
Government, on the Orders of the Day, to the fact that the Drayton Tariff
Commission has never reported and that the report should be available to the
members of this Committee and also to the members of the House.
On motion of Mr. El.liott, seconded by Mr. Sales.
Ordered, That Mr. John W. Ward be recalled to give evidence on Rural
Credits.
Mr. Arthur Martel, Canadian representative of the United Brotherhood of
Carpenters & Joiners of America, Toronto, Ont., who was in attendance, was
called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further attendance.
Mr. John W. Ward, Secretary, Canadian Council of Agriculture, Winnipeg,
Man., who was in attendance, was recalled, gave evidence and di.charged from
further attendance.
Mr. Charles M. Bowman, hlutual Life Assurance Company, Waterloo, Ont.,
who was in attendance in obedience to summons was called, swcrn, gave evidence
and retired.
this
Committee adjourned at 1.10 o'clock p.m. to meet again a 4 o'clock p.m.
day.
Committee reassembled at 4 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Bowman continued his evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 6.20 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 11 o'clock a.m.
to-morrow, Tuesday, May l, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
COIMITTEE ROO.[ NO. 268,
TusD.Y, May 1, 1923.
Committee lnet at 11 o'clock a.m. Present--Messieurs McMaster (Presid-
ing), Bouchard, Caldwcll, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardincr, Grimmer, Hammell,
McKay, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's, P.E.I.), Stansel,
Sutherland, Tolmie--16.
hIr. C. M. Bowman continued his evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Mr. Alexander N. McLean, Retail Merchant, St. John, N.B., who was in
attendance in obedience to summons was called, sworn, gave evidence and was
discharged from further attendance.
Mr. John E. Warrington, Shoe Manufacturer, Quebec, Que., who was in
attendance was called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 1.05 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 4 o'clock p.m.
this day.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS xlvii
APPENDIX No. 3
Committee reassembled at 4 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Warrington concluded his evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Mr. Joseph Daoust, Tanner and Shoe Manufacturer, Montreal, Que., who
was in attendance, was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from
further attendance.
Mr. L. IacP. Ault, who was in attendance in obedience to summons Duces
Tecum was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further attend-
ance.
Committee adjourned at 6.15 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 8 o'clock p.m.
this day.
Committee reassembled at 8 o'clock p.m.
Mr. S. Roy Weaver, Manager, Shoe Manufacturing Association of Canada,
Montreal, Que., who was in attendance, was called, sworn, gave evidence and
was discharged from further attendance.
Mr. F. W. Stewart, Managing Director, Cluett-Peabody Co. of Canada
Ltd., of Montreal, Que., who was in attendance, was called, sworn, gave evidence
and retired.
Committee adjourned at 11.10 p.m. to attend in the House.
Committee reassembled at 11.25 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Stewart concluded his evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Committee adjourned at 12.15 o'clock a.m. to meet again at 11 o'clock a.m.
this day, Wednesday, May 2, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
HOUSE OF COSI_IoNs,
COMIIITTEE ROOM No. 268.
WEDNESDAY, May 2, 1923.
Committee met at 11.00 o'clock a.m. Present--hlessieurs McMaster
(presiding). Bouchard. Caldwell. Clifford Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, Grimmer,
Hammell. McKay, hIilne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's, P.E.I.)
StanseI1, Sutherland, Tolmie--17.
Sir. Thomas Bradshaw, General Manager, The Iassey-Harris Co., Ltd.,
Toronto, Ont., who was in attendance in obedience to a summons Duces Tecum,
was called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 12.55 o'clock p.m., to meet agaia at 3.30 o'clock
p.m., this day.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS xllx
APPENDIX No. 3
The Acting Chairman read letter from Mr. A. R. McMaster, Chairman of
the Committee, stating that he would be unable to be present and requesting
Mr. Sinclair to act in his stead.
The fifth Annual Report of the Canadian Co-operative Wool Growers,
Ltd., accompanied by samples of cloth made by that Company were laid on
the table and ordered to be filed as exhibits.
Letter was read from T. K. Doherty, Commissioner of the International
Institute of Agriculture, enclosing tables showing production of raw cane and
beet sugar, a statement on the world's production of cane sugar and sugar beets
and a statement on the world's production of sugar. The tables and statements
were ordered to be filed and printed as exhibits.
Mr. Lachlin McNeil, Commissioner, Manitoba Farm Loan Association,
Winnipeg, Man., who was in attendance in obedience to summons Decus Tecum
was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further attendance.
Mr. Colin Fraser, Commissioner, Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Regina,
Sask., who was in attendance in obedience to summons Decus Tecum was called,
sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Mr. Grimmer moved the following which was laid on the table ;--for dis-
cussion at the afternoon session:--
"That, Messieurs Guy Porter of Perth, Charles Gallagher of Bath
and Frank Smith of East Florenceville all in the Province of New
Brunswick be summoned to give evidence before this Committee; and
also that F. W. Pirie be recalled and bring with him all books and
papers in connection with the sale of fertilizer by him to the farmers
in the past two years." .
Committee adjourned at 1.15 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 4.00 o'clock
p.m. this day.
Committee reassembled at 4.00 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Grimmer's motion was further discussed and laid over until the
meeting of the Committee.
Mr. Colin Fraser concluded his evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Committee adjourned at 5.15 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 11.00 o'clock
a.m. to-morrow, Tuesday, hlay 8, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Cleric to Committee.
HOUSE oF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOM NO. 268,
Tuesday, May 8, 1923.
Committee met at 11 o'clock a.m.
Present--Messieurs McMaster (Presiding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Gardiner,
Grimmer, Hammell, McKay, McMurray, Milne, hunro, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's,
P.E.I.), Tolmie,--12.
1 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Mr. A. E. Dewar, farmer, Charlottetown, P.E.I., who was in attendance in
obedience to summons Decus Tecvm, was called, sworn, gave evidence and was
discharged from further attendance.
Committee adjourned at 12.45 o'clock p.m., to meet again at 8 o'clock p.m.
this day.
Committee re-assembled at 8 o'clock p.m.
Mr. H. H. Hatfield, potato merchant, Hartland, :N.B., who was in attend-
ance in obedience to summons Dccus Tecum, was called, sworn, gave evidence
and was discharged from further attendance.
Mr. O. R. Estey, potato merchant, Woodstock, :N.B., who was in attend-
ance in obedience to summons, was called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 10.15 o'clock p.m. to attend in the House.
Committee reassembled at 10.30 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Estey concluded his evidence and was discharged from further attend-
ance.
Committee adjourned at 11.35 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 10.30 o'clock
a.m. to-morrow, Wednesday, May 9, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
HOUSE oF COMMONS,
COIIIiITTEE Room :No. 268,
WEDNESDAY, May 9, 1923.
Committee met at 10.30 o'clock a.m. Present: Messieurs McMaster (pre-
siding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Clifford, Elliott {Waterloo), Gardiner, Grimmer,
Hammell, McKay, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Snclair {Queens, P.E.I.),
and Tolmie--15.
Committee in Executive Session.
Chairman read correspondence with Minister of Trade and Commerce
regarding sugar situation.
On motion of Mr. Munro, seconded by Mr. Bouchard,
Ordered, That representatives of the six largest sugar refineries in Canada
be summoned to attend before this Committee for the purpose of inquiring into
the high price of sugar, and the causes therefor; the said representatives to have
with them and to produce before the Committee figures showing the cost of their
raw material, the price they are receiving for the finished product, and their
costs of production and distribution, including the spreads between the manu-
facturer and the ultimate consumer; and, also to explain the relationship which
exists between the sugar industry of this country and that of other countries.
On motion of Mr. Tolmie, seconded by Mr. ,icKay
Ordered, That Iessrs. H. A. :Newman and J. A. Ruddick of the Depart-
ment of Agriculture be asked to appear before the Committee.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS li
APPENDIX No. 3
Mr. J. A. Imrie, newspaper publisher, Edmonton, Alto., who was in attend-
ance, was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further attend-
ance. Mr. K. A. Blatchford, insurance adjuster, Edmonton, Alto., who was in
attendance, was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further.
attendance.
Committee adjourned at 12.50 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 4 o'clock p.m.
this day.
Committee reassembled at 4 o'clock p.m.
Mr. W. W. Swanson, college professor, Saskatoon, Sask., who was in
attendance, was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Committee adiourned at 5.55 o'clock p.m. to meet at 10.30 o'clock a.m.
to-morrow, Thursday, May 10, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Conmittee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOIXI NO. 268,
THURSDAY, h{Iay 10, 1923.
Committee met at 10.30 o'clock a.m. Present--Messieurs McMaster
(Preziding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Elliott (Waterloo), Gardiner, Grimmer,
Hammell, McKay, Milne, h{Iunro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's P.E.I.},
Tolmie--14.
Chairman read number of letters which were ordered to be filed as exhibits.
Mr. C. S. W. Short, Cost Estimator, of the Massey-Harris Co., Ltd.,
Toronto, Ont., who was in attendance in obedience to summons Decus Tecum
was called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 1.10 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 2.30 o'clock p.m.
this day.
Committee reassembled at 2.30 o'clock p.m.
Mr. Short concluded his evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Mr. Thomas Bradshaw, General Manager, of the hIassey-Harris Co.,
Toronto, Ont., who was in attendance in obedience to summons Dces Tecum
was called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Mr. C. E. tIurlbut, Manager, Hurlbut Shoe Co., who was in attendance was
called, sworn, gave evidence and retired.
Committee ad]ourned at 5.50 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 8 o'clock p.m.
this day.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS
APPENDIX No. 3
The taking of evidence in camera was concluded and Committee resumed
in public session.
Mr. J. W. McConnell, concluded his evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 1.15 o'clock p.m., to meet again at 3.30 o'clock
p.m., this day.
Committee reassembled at 3.30 o'clock p.m.
Mr. W. A. Hobbins, was recalled and continued his evidence and retired.
Mr. J. W. McConnell, was recalled, concluded his evidence and was dis-
charged from further attendance.
Mr. W. A. Hobbins, was recalled, concluded his evidence and was discharged
from turther attendance.
Mr. C. E. Neill, General Manager, of the Royal Bank of Canada, Montreal,
P.Q., who was in attendance in obedience to summons, Duces Tecum, was called,
sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further attendance.
Committee adjourned at 6.20 o'clock p.m., to meet again at 8.30 o'clock
p.m., this day.
Committee reassembled at 8.30 o'clock p.m.
Mr. C. D. Schurman, Superintendent of Foreign Branches, Bank of Nova
Scotia, Toronto, Ont., who was in attendance in obedience to summons Duces
Tecum was called, sworn, gave evidence and was discharged from further
attendance.
Mr. C. H. Houson, was recalled, continued his evidence and retired.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
House OF COMMONS,
CO_IMITTEE ROOM NO. 268,
THuRSI).Y, May 17, 1923.
Committee met at 10.30 o'clock a.m. Present---Messieurs McMastel
(presiding), Caldwell, Elliott {Waterloo), Gardiner, Hammell, hlcKay, Milne
Munro, Sales, Hon. J. E. Sinclair {Queen's), Stansell, Sutherland--10.
Mr. William Archibald Macintosh, Associate Professor of Economics.
Quee.ns University, Kingston, Ont. who was in attendance was called, sworn
gave evidence, and retired.
Committee adiourned at 12.45 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 10.30 a.m.
Friday, May 18, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Cleric to Committee.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS Ivii
APPENDIX No, 3
Mr. Gardiner, Chairman of the sub-committee on Rural Credits read a
memorandum he had prepared and the Clerk was ordered to have sufficient
copies typed forthwith to supply each member of the Committee with a copy.
After discussion Committee decided, so far as possible, to prepare Reports
for presentation to the House on the following subjects:--
(a) Ocean freight rates.
(b) Rural Credits.
(c) The Farmer as Vendor and as Purchaser,
Committee adjourned at 6.05 o'clock P.M. to meet again at 10.30 o'clock
A.M. on Friday, June 15, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
I-IousE OF COMMOIS
COMIIITTEE ROOII NO. 268,
FRIDAY, June 15, 1923.
Committee met at 10.30 o'clock a.m. Present: Messieurs McMaster (pre-
siding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Gardiner, Grimmer, Hammell, Lanctot, McKay,
McSlurray, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sinclair (Queen's, P.E.I.), Stansell and
Tolmie--15.
Chairman read correspondence from Messrs. Munro, Dougherty, et al, re
the sugar beet situation in Ontario. After discussion the correspondence was
ordered to be filed.
The fifth interim Report--that of ocean freight rates--was again taken up
and discussed.
Committee adjourned at 1.05 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 5 o'clock p.m.
this day.
Committee reassembled at 5 o'clock p.m.
The fifth interim Report was further discussed and laid over until the ne.x
meeting of the Committee.
Committee adjourned at 6.05 o'clock p.m. to meet again at 11 o'clock a.m.
on Monday, June 18, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
I-IousE OF COMMONS
COMMITTEE ROOM NO. 268,
hOND.kY, June 18, 1923.
Committee met at 11.00 o'clock a.m. Present :--Messieurs McMaster
(Presiding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Clifford, Gardiner, Grimmer, Hammell,
McKay, McMurray, Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queen's, P.E.I.),
and Tolmie--15.
lviii SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Chairman read redraft of proposed Report to the House on "Ocean Trans-
portation."
Discussion followed.
On motion of Mr. Caldwell, seconded by Mr. Munro, the draft Report as
read by the Chairman was adopted, and the Chairman ordered to present it
to the House as the fifth interim Report of this Committee. (Report appears
on page x.)
Mr. E. S. Archibald, Director of Dominion Experimental Farms, Ottawa,
Ont., who was in attendance, was called, gave evidence and retired.
Committee adjourned at 1.15 o'clock P.M. to meet again at 7.30 o'clock
P.M. this day.
Committee reassembled at 7.30 o'clock P.M.
Mr. Gardiner, Chairman of the sub-committee on Rural Credits, read a
memorandum he had prepared on this subject.
Discussion followed.
Mr. McMaster, General Chairman of the Committee, read a memorandum
he had prepared on Rural Credits.
Discussion followed, after which the memoranda were laid over for re-
drafting and presentation to the Committee in the form of a Report.
On motion of Mr. Hammell, seconded by Mr. Sales.
Ordered, That 2,000 copies of to-day's Report containing the fifth Interim
Report of this Committee be printed for the purpose of supplying the demand
for this Report.
Committee adjourned at 9.15 o'clock P.M. to meet again at 11.00 o'clock
A.M. to-morrow, Tuesday, June 19th, 1923.
S. R. GORDON,
Cleric o] Committee.
HOUSE OF CO-MMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOM No. 268,
TUESDAY, June 19, 1923.
Committee met at 11 o'clock a.m.
Present: Messieurs IcMaster (presiding), Bouchard, Caldwell, Elliott
(Waterloo), Gardiner, Hammell, Lanctot, McKay, Milne, Munro, Robinson,
Sales, Sinclair (Queen's)--13.
Chairman read draft or proposed report on Rural Credits.
Discussion followed.
On motion of Mr. Gardiner, seconded by Mr. Bouchard. Ordered, that
the memorandum of Mr. Gardiner on Rural Credits as read by him at the last
meeting, be incorporated in our minutes of proceedings of to-day, as follows:--
Ix SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Act of Parliament to confirm the aforesaid Order in Council." This was the
Finance Act of 1914. This Order in Council gave many privileges to the
banks amongst which can be cited for instance, that the gold standard was
suspended and that the banks could pay all their liabilities with their own notes.
The Act also authorizes the Finance Minister to make advances in the
form of Dominion Notes against securities satisfactory to the Treasury Board.
These securities include Dominion, Provincial and Municipal bonds, certain
industrial bonds and stocks, assignments of grain and produce and demand
notes, endorsed by the bank to the order of the Finance Minister. The banks
pay interest to the Treasury Board for these issues of Dominion Notes. They
place them in the central gold reserve and issue their own notes against them.
It is my contention that a Provincial Government is just as important as
any bank in Canada, and for the purpose of providing money for long term
loans to farmers should be granted the same privileges as the banks, that is,
to pledge its bonds for an issue of Dominion notes, for the purpose of financing
long term loans, paying interest for that accommodation. By this method, we
would be using our own national credit and not the credit of individuals. The
Federal Government 'ould receive interest for loans so made. This interest
would, in turn, become part of the annual revenue of Canada. Provincial
Governments would have the responsibility of determining as to whether they
'ould take advantage of this proposal and those Governments who have long
term rural credits now in operation might, if more money is needed, use this
method to supplement their present source of supply.
The responsibility for the creation of the necessary machinery to give
effect to this method of financing the farmers with long term loans would rest
with the Provincial Governments.
It may be claimed by some that this would be putting into circulation fiat
money. In this connection, permit me to quote an extract from the pamphlet
written by Sir Edmund Walker, entitled "Canadian Banking"--page 34:-
Little of anything in the financial history of Canada is more credit-
able than the Finance Act of 1914. The bankers in response to the call
of the Finance Minister met him in Ottawa on the 3rd of August, and
the discussion resulted in the issue that night of the Order-in-Council
which the Finance Act was passed to confirm. The Act is intended to
meet an emergency arising from "War, invasion, riot or insurrection, real
or apprehended, and in the case of any real or apprehended financial
crisis" and as it operates by proclamation in whole or in part, there seems
to be no objection to the Act remaining on the Statute book.
The Act authorized: (1) The Minister of Finance to make advances
to the banks in the form of Dominion Notes, against securities satis-
factory to the Treasury Board; {2) It authorized the banks to pay their
debts in their own notes provided such notes were not issued in excess
of the bank's authority under the Bank and the Finance Acts; {3) It made
more elastic the use of emergency circulation already permitted by the
Bank Act; (4) It suspended the redemption in gold of Dominion notes;
and (5) It made a general moratorium possible at any time by mere
proclamation.
The Dominion notes or legal tenders issued during the war were thus
quite different from the fiat money of many countries. They were based
upon securities pledged by the borrower.
No. 17.
June 19, 1922.
1.,di SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
Your Committee beg to submit herewith for the information of the :House
a printed copy of their proceedings and the evidence given before the Commit-
tee, and also certain documents and articles submitted to the Committee but
not contained in the proceedings.
Your Committee recommend that the Orders of Reference, reports, pro-
ceedings and the evidence given before the Committee, together with a suitable,
synoptic index, to be prepared by the Clerk of the Committee, be printed as
an appendix to the Journals of the :House of the present session; and that the
whole be subdivided under the subiects of,
{a) Production,
{b) Transportation, Distributing and Marketing,
(c) Rural Credits,
(d) Relation of Prices obtained by the Agriculturists as Producers and
paid by them as Consumers,
and printed in blue book form for distribution, and that Rule 74 be suspended
in reference thereto.
A. R. McMASTER,
Chairman.
Committee adjourned at 1.175 o'clock p.m., sine de.
S. R. GORDON,
Clerk to Committee.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS lxiii
APPENDIX No. 3
AGENDA
(As Amended)
StrJECTS suggested for investigation by special committee appointed to
inquire into agricultural conditions throughout Canada
1. The present condition of agriculture:
(a) in the Maritime Provinces;
(b) in Ontario and Quebec;
(c) in the Prairie Provinces;
(d) in British Columbia.
2. The causes of such conditions:
Where these conditions are unfavourable, an examination into reme-
dies, with special reference to the best methods of livestock marketing;
the lowering of the production costs of meats; the development of the
bacon industry; of the beef industry; of the pure-bred livestock in-
dustry; of health of animals. A special investigation into the fruit
industry as regards apples, tender fruits, small fruits and bush fruits,
involving the problems of production, marketing and transportation. An
investigation into the dairy industry, along the lines of direction or
encouragement of breeding, suitable crop production and marketing. Con-
sideration of special lins of farming or particular crops as likely to
increase farm returns and afford diversification in production, with regard
to sugar beets, tobacco, flax, hemp, potatoes, special Northern-grown
seeds of cereals, grasses, clovers, vegetables and roots, fur farming, maple
sugar industry, bee-keeping.
3. The cause of the difference between the prices of agricultural
products paid to the producer and the ultimate cost of the same to the
consumer.
4. The relation of prices of commodities purchased by agricultural
producers and the prices obtained by such producers for their own
products.
5. The banking and financial resources and credits of the country
as affecting agricultural producers, with an examination into the various
systems of rural credits in this and other countries.
6. The marketing and transportation facilities of the country in
respect to agricultural produce, with a special investigation into the merits
and demerits of co-operative buying and selling, and including an ex-
amination into alleged abuses connected with the mixing of grains in
elevators.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS lxvii
APPENDIX No. 3
No.
EXHIBITS
PAGES
Regulation of Movement of Imported Cattle.--Dr. GrisdMe.. Printed as appendix 1833
British Columbia Fruit Growers. Membership Agrecment.--.Mr. Taylor .......
Printed as appendix 1836
3. Letter. hit. F. C. Cornell to Chairman of Committee, re flour rates.--Mr. Cornell.
Read into evidence 172
4. Freight Tariff of North Atlantic U.K Conference, with supplements ......... Not printed
5. Letter. Mr. Sidney E. Morse, Secretary, North Atlantic U.K. Conference to
Mr. W. T. Marion, Chairnmn Canadian Liner Committee, re wood pulp.-
Mr. Cnningham ..................................... Readin to evidence 189
6. Letter. Mr. P. A. Curry to members of Canadian Conference, re grain rates.-
Mr. Cunningham ...................................... Read into evidence 190
7. Minutes of Canadian Liner Conference meetings. Extracts from above.--Mr.
Cunningham ......................................... Read into evidence 193
8. Correspondence between Messrs, L. A. W. Doherty and J. W. Nicoll, ve rate
cutting.--Mr. Cunningham ............................. .Read into evidence 217
9. Telegrams exchanged between Messrs. Sidney E. Morse, W. T. Marlow and V. H
Craig, re rates on flour ................................ Read into evidence 220
10. Barr Service circular, "Rates on Flour".--Mr. Watts ....... Printed as appendix 1842
11. Letter. Mr. C. B. Watts to Sir IIcnry Thornton, K.B.E., President Canadian
National Railways.--Mr. Watts ........................ Read into evidence 276
12. Ocean Freight Rates, 1913.--Mr. Watts ............................... Not printed
13. Account Sales of 380 cattle landed 20th June, 1921, cx S.S. Mawhestcr Corporatio
at Birkenhead.--Mr. Light ............................. Read into evidence 332
14. Sketch of cattle stall on open deck of ocean steamer.--Mr.Pinsonnault .........
Included in evidence 343
15. Table. Quantative labor factors to produce an acre of wheat.--Mr. Grant .......
Read into evidence 348
16. Table. Cash cost to produce an acre of wheat. Included in Exhibit No. 18.-
Mr. Grant ........................................................ Not
17. Table. Land and buildings cost to produce an acre of heat.--Mr. Grant ........
Read into evidence 350
18. Table. Total cost to produce an acre of wheat.--Mr. Grant... Read into evidence 352
19. Plan of Farm "A".--Mr. Grant ....................................... Not printed
20. Summary of year's business on Farm "A".--Mr. Grant ......... Read into evidence 363
21. Plan of Farm "B".--Mr. Grant ........................................ Not printed
22. Summary of year's business on Farm "B".--Mr. Grant ...... Read into evidence 366
23. Plan of Farm "C".--Mr. Grant ....................................... Not printed
24. Summary of year's business on Farm "C".--Mr. Grant ..... Read into evidence 366
25. Plan of Farm "D".--Mr. Grant ....................................... Not printed
26. Summary of year's business on Farm "D".--Mr. Grant ...... Read into evidence 369
27. Plan of Farm "E".--Mr. Grant ...................................... Not printed
28. Summary of year's business on Farm "E".--Mr. Grant ..... Read into evidence 373
29. Form No. 1. "Distribution of Investment.--Mr. Grant ...... Read into eviden 384
30. Form No. 2. "Distribution of Farm Area".--Mr. Grant ..... Read into evidence 385
31. Form No. 3. "Percentage of total crop area in various crops".--Mr. Grant ......
Read into evidence 385
32. Form No. 4. "Amount of Stock per farm".--Mr. Grant... Read into evidence 385
33. Form No. 5. "Distribution of Expenses and total Expenses per Farm"--Mr.
Grant .............................................. Read into evidence 386
34. Form No. 6. "Receipts, expenses and net loss or gain."--Mr. Grant .............
Read into evidence 386
35. Form No. 7. "Cost of various items".--Mr. Grant ........ Read into evidence 386
printed
txx SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
No. PAGES.
105. Test, showing value o[ boneless smoked backs on bsis of fresh lions at 23 cents.--
Mr. McLean ........................................ Printed as appendix 1872
106. Test, showing value of snoked breakfast bcon on basis of fresh bellies at 20 cents.
hIr. McLean ......................................... Printed as appendix 1873
107. Exports from Canada to the United States of principal commodities as are produced
on Canadian farms.--Bureau of Statistics ................... Printed as appendix 1874
108. Agreement bet een Shipping Companies and Shipliners.--Mr. hlartel ........
Read into evidence 1087
109. Shoe, hlen's bal, tan, narked "Bedford" on sole.--Mr. Warrington ...... Not printed
110. Cost Sheet of Daoust, Lalondc and Co., Ltd.--Mr. Daoust ........ Not printed
111. Invoice of shoes.--Mr. Ault ............ Not Printed
112. Shoe Industry facts.--Mr. Weaver .................................... Not printed
113. Invested capital and rcsflts of financial operations of fourteen United States and
Canndian agricultural machinery companies for years 1921 and 1922.--Mr.
Bradshaw ........................................... Read into evidence 1238
114. Graph. Present prices of farn implements and of commodities entering into
manufacture of same.--Mr. Bradshaw ................. Read into evidence 1270
115. Graph. Present general commodity prices.--Mr. Bradshaw. Read into evidence 1271
116. Gr.ph. Percentage of increase in price of wheat and farm implements together
ith raw materials and labour applicable to the latter.--hlr. Bradshaw .......
Read into evidence 1275
117. Notice. Change of price, July, 1919, Cluett-Peabody and Co., of Canada, Ltd.
Mr. Pedlow ......................................... Printed as appendix 1876
118. Notice. Change of price, July, 1919. Tooke Bros., Limited.--Mr. Pedlow
Printed as appendix 1876
119. Notice. Change of price, July 1919, The Williams, Greene and Rome Co., Ltd.--
hlr. Pedlov. ........................................ Printed as appendix 1877
20. Extract from the si,th ammal report of the Federal Farm Loan Board of the
United States of America for the year ending De ember 31st, 1922.--Mr.
Master ............................................. Printed as appendix 1877
121. Fifth annual report, Canadian Co-operative Wool Growers', Limited.--Mr.
Master ............................................................ Not printed
122. Samples of cloth produced by Canadian Co-operative Vrool Growers', Limited.--
Mr. Mchlaster ..................................................... Not printed
123. Cane Sugar production 1922-1923.--Bureau of Statistics ..... Printed as appendix 1881
124. Beet Sugar production 1922-1923.--Bureau of Statistics ..... Printed as appendix 1881
125. Beet Sugar. Present production as compared ith pro-war production.--Bureau
of Statistics ......................................... Printed as appendix 1882
126. Statement. World's production of sugar. Bareau of Statistics ..........
Printed as appendix 1882
127. Manitoba Farm Loans Act and .mendments.--hIr. McNeil ................. Not printed
128. Manitoba Farm Loans A.ociation Report and Balance sheet for nine months
ending August 31st, 1922.--M. McNeil ................ Printed as appendix 1883
129. Manitoba Farm Loans Association, Applic.tions and foreclosures to date.--
hlr. McNeil ......................................... Printed as appendix 1886
130. Manitoba Farm Lgans Association, Cash received to April 33th, 1923.--Mr. McNeil
Printed as appendix 1886
131 Manitoba Farm Lgans Asociation, Financial Statement, April 30th, 1923.--
Mr. McNeil ......................................... Printed as appendix 1887
132. Saskatche an Farm Loan act and amendments.--hlr. Fraser ............... Not printed
133. Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Annual Report, 1917.--Ir. Fraser .... Not printed
134. Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Anmml Report, 1918.--Mr. Fraser ........ Not printed
135. Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Annual Report, 1919.--Mr. Fraser ........ Not printed
136. Saskatchewan Farm Lgan Board, Annual Report, 1920.--Mr. Fraser ...... Not printed
137. Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Annual Report, 1921.--Mr. Fraser .... Not printed
138. Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Annual Report, 1922.--Mr. Fraser ........ Not printed
139. Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Annual Reporl, 1923.--Mr. Fraser ........... 1354
140. Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board. Total amount loaned and amount outstanding
Mr. Fraser ....................................... Read into evidence 1356
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS
APPENDIX No. 3
No.
141
142.
143.
144.
145.
146.
147.
148.
149.
150.
151.
152.
153.
154.
155.
156.
157.
158.
159.
160.
161.
162.
163.
164.
165
166.
167.
168.
169.
170.
171.
172.
173.
174.
175.
176.
177.
178.
179.
180.
181.
182.
183.
184.
185.
lxx
PAGES.
Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, total amount due for interest.--Mr. Fraser.
Read into evidence 1357
Saskatchewan Farm Loan Board, Foreclosure.--Mr. Frer ...................
Read into evidence 1357
Ne spaper Advertisement, "There's no argulncnt about Saskatchewan's future".
--Mr. Hammell ....................................................... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 1 on SS. "St. Mary" .--Mr. Hatfield ...................
Read into evidence 1396
Potato Shipment No. 2 on SS. "Commodore Rolling".--Mr. Hatfield ............
Read into evidence 1399
Potato Shipment No. 3 on SS. "Smaraged".--Mr. Hatficld ....................
Read into evidence 1400
Potato Shipment No. 4 on SS. "Mongolia".--Mr. Hatfield ....................
Read into evidence 1401
Potato Shipment No. 5 on SS. "Uffee".--Mr. Hatfield ....... Read into evidence 1404
Potato Shipment No. 6 on SS. "Eric II".--Mr. Hatfield ..................... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 7 on SS. "Commodore Rolling".--Mr. Hatfield ......... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 8 on SS. "Harold".--Mr. Hatfield ............. Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 9 on SS. "Fram".--Mr. IIatfield ...... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 10 on SS. "Gothia".--Mr. Hatfield ......... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 11 on SS. "Lake Kyttle".-=Mr. Hatfield.. . Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 12 on SS. "Swartford".--Mr. Hatfield.. . Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 13 on SS. "Sangstad".--Mr. Hatfield ..... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 14 on SS. "Daneholm' k--Mr. Hatficld.. . Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 15 on SS. "Gothia".--Mr. H Wtfie[d ..... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 16 on SS. "Bratland".--Mr. Hatficld .... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 17 on SS. "Swartford".--Mr. Hatfield.. . Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 18 on SS. "Rovaer".--Mr. Hatfield ....... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 19 on SS. "Hundvago".--Mr. Haifield ....... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 20 on SS. "Fredesbro".--Mr. Hatfield ....... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 1 on SS. "Bryssel".--Mr. Hatfield ...................
Read into evidence 1407
Potato Shipment No. 2 on SS. ".4dveston".--Mr. Hatfield ......... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 3 on SS. "Gefion".--Mr. Hatfield ...... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 4 on SS. "Krosfond".--Mr. Hatfield. . Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 5 on SS. "Bertha".--Mr. Hatfiehl.. . Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 6 on SS. "Anna".--Mr. Hatfield ..... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 7 on SS. "Tela".--Mr. Hatfield ....... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 8 on SS. "Paloma".--Mr. Hatfield.. . Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 9 on SS. "Enare".--Mr. Hatfield ........... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 10 on SS. "Frederica".--Mr. Hatfield ..... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 11 on SS. "Pluto".--Mr. Hatfield ...... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 12 on SS. "Ripond".--Mr. Itatfield .... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 13 on SS. "Ubergen".--Mr. Hatfield ..... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 14 on SS. "Nordahv".--Mr. Hatfield ....... Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 15 on SS. "OIga".--Mr. Hatfield ................ Not printed
Potato Shipment No. 16 on SS. "Skogheim".--Mr. Hatfield ................. Not printed
Manitoba Farm Loans Association, Secretary's Report, Decenber 31st, 1917.--
Mr. McNeil ........................................................ Not printed
Manitoba Farm Loans Association, Secretary's Report, November 30, 1918.--
Mr. McNeil ......................................................... Not printed
Manitoba Farm Loans Association, Secretary's Report, November 30th, 1920.--
Mr. McNeil ........................................................ Not printed
Letter from Mr. C. P. Blanchard, Truro, N.S., dated April 25th, 1923.--Mr.
McMaster .......................................................... Not printed
Letter from Mr. C. P. Blanchard, Truro, N.S., dated May 7th, 1923.--Mr.
McMaster ......................................................... Not printed
Letter from the G. S. Munro Co., Ltd., Rcston: Man.--Mr. McMaster ......... Not printed
lxxii SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
No. PAGES.
186. Letter from Paynter Brothers, Tantallon, Sask.--Mr. McMaster ............. Not printed
187. Letter from Foreman Brothers, Arden, Man.--Mr. McMaster ............... Not printed
188. Graph. Purchasing power of wheat when applied to cost of binder--ten year
period.--Mr. Bradshaw ............................... Read into evidence 1504
189. Graph. Purchasing power of heat when applied to cost of drill--ten year period
.--Mr. Bradshaw .................................... Read into evidence 1507
190. Graph. Purchasing power of wheat when applied to cost of gang plough--ten
year period.--Mr. Bra.dshaw ........................... Read into evidence 1508
191. Ac -knowledgement of acceptance o[ Hurlbut Agency.--Mr. Hurlbut ............
Read into evidence 1517
192. Instructions issued to all retail dealers of Hurlbut shoes.--Mr. Hurlbut ....... Not printed
193. The "See-saw" shoe, made in Rochester, N.Y.--Mr. Hurlbut ................. Returned
194. Block of "sucre de table" made by Home Food Co., Montreal, P.Q.--Mr. Trow-
ern ................................................................ Returned
195. Bottle of "Cafe Brand" table syrup.--Mr. Trowern ........................... Returned
196. Block of imitation maple sugar, m.rked "Pure".--Mr. Trowern ................ Returned
197. Bottle of pure Maple Syrup.--Mr. Trowern ................................ Returned
198. Extract from "Star", Montreal.--Mr. Sales ................. Read into evidence 1559
199. Letter re express rates on maple products.--Mr. McMaster.. Read into evidence 1564
200. Brief of British Columbia Grocrs' Association and tables accompanying same
--Mr. Taylor ....................................... Printed as appendix 1888
201. Farm cash book journal.--Mr. Ne man ...... Read into evidence 1590
202. Farm year book.--Mr. Newman .... Read into evidence 1597
203. Farm ledger.--Mr. Newman ......... Read into evidence 1599
204. Farm field book.--Mr. Newman ...... Read into evidence 1605
205. Farm food statenent.--Mr. Newman ......... Read into evidence 1617
206. Brief, Single Tax Association.--Mr. Douglas ............. Printed as appendix 1914
207. Letter and exhibits, Department of Agriculture, Regina, Sask.--Mr. Hamilton
Printed s appendix 1918
208. Memorandum on the trend of export trade in Canadian farm products, etc.,
1914-1923.--Bureau of Statistics ...................... Printed as appendix 1922
209. Comparison of the exports of Canadian farm products in 1923 with those of 1914.
--Bureau of Statistics ............................. Printed as appendix 1925
210. Retail prices of Sugar.--Burcau of Statistics .............. Printed as appendix 1929
211. Sugar beet contract of Dominion Sugar Company.--Mr. Houson ..............
Read into evidence 1755
212. Letter from Ontario Sugar Beet Growers' Association.--Mr. Dougherty ........
Read into evidence 1779
213. Letter and statement re costs of lumber and fittings for cattle stalls.--Mr. Gagnon
Printed as appendix 1929
214. Address by T. J. Murray before International Milk Dealers Association.--Mr.
Milne .............................................. Printed as appendix 1930
215. Brief, Lethbridge Board of Trade.--Mr. McMaster ........ Printed as appendix 1932
216. Brief, Wholesale Dry Goods Association.--Mr. McMaster.. Printed s appendix 1936
217. Memoranda of Dominion Mortgag and Investment Association.--Mr. McMster
Not printed
218. Scott's simplified farm accounting system.--Mr. Scott ....................... Not printed
219. Manitoba Farm Loans Association, Secretary's Report, November 30th, 1919.--
Mr. MeNiel ........................................................ Not printed
220. Exports of Canadian farm products to the United States and United Kingdom
1913-1923.--Bureau of Statistics ..................................... Not printed
221. Letter and statement of cost of binder in 1909.--Mr. Bradshaw. ...............
Printed as appendix 1939
222. Costs and Profits in Canada's present agriculture.Mr. Archibald ............
Printed as appendix 1939
223. Information furnished as to amounts and grades of grain received into and
shipped out of private terminal elevators at the Head of the Lakes, for the crop
years 1917-18, 1918-19, 1919-20, 1920-21, 1921-22, as required by Order of the
Committee.--Board of Grain Commissioners ............ Printed as appendix 1950
13-14 GEORGE V APPENDIX No. 3 A. 1923
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOM 425,
WEDNESDAY, March 7,
1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 10 a.m.
The CLERK: This is a Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricul-
tural conditions throughout Canada. The members are:-
" Messieurs: Bouchard, Caldwell, Clifford, Elliott (Waterloo South),
Gardiner, Grimmer, Hammell, I,anct6t, McKay, McMaster, McMurray,
Milne, Munro, Robinson, Sales, Sinclair (Queens, P.E.I.), Stansell, Suthero
land, Tolmie."
Will one of the members of the Committee be kind enough to nominate a
Chairman ?
Mr. ROBINSON: I move that Mr. Clifford be the Chairman.
Mr. CLIFFORD: I appreciate the compliment very highly and I wish to thank
the mover for nominating me. But this is going to be a very heavy Committee,
and I am only a junior member of the House. I would therefore nominate Mr.
McMaster.
Mr. GARDNER: I second that.
Hon. h[EMBERS: Agreed.
The CLERK: Mr. McMaster is the unanimous choice of the Committee.
Mr. McMaster having taken the Chair.
The CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, I beg to thank you for the honour you have
done me, and especially Mr. Clifford for nominating me. I have been giving
some thought to what the Committee may do, and I have taken the liberty to
prepare a memorandum which I submitted to the Minister of Agriculture,
indicating some of the subjects which I think we might well consider.
MEMORANDUM
OTTA%VA, ONTARIO, March 2, 1923.
SUBJECTS suggested for investigation by special committee appointed to
enquire into agricultural conditions throughout Canada.
1. The present condition of agriculture:
(a) in the Maritime Provinces;
(b) in Ontario and Quebec;
(c) in the Prairie Provinces;
(d) in British Columbia.
2. The causes of such conditions:
Where these conditions are unfavourable, an examination into reme-
dies, with special reference to the best methods of livestock marketing;
the lowering of the production costs of meats; the development of the
2 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
bacon industry; of the beef industry. A special investigation into the fruit
industry as regards apples, tender fruits, small fruits and bush fruits,
involving the problems of production, marketing and transportation. An
investigation into the dairy industry along the lines of direction or encour-
agement of breeding, suitable crop production and marketing. Considera-
tion of special lines of farming or particular crops as likely to increase
farm returns and afford diversification in production, with regard to sugar
beets, tobacco, flax, hemp, potatoes, special Northern-grown seeds of
cereals, grasses, clovers, vegetables and roots, fur farming, maple sugar
industry, bee-keeping.
3. The cause of the difference between the prices of agricultural
products paid to the producer and the ultimate cost of the same to the
consumer.
4. The relation of prices of commodities pure.based by agricultural
producers and the prices obtained by such producers for their own
products.
5. The banking and financial resources and credits of the country
as affecting agricultural producers, with an examination into the various
systems of rural credits in this and other countries.
6. The marketing and transportation facilities of the country in
respect to agricultural produce, with a special investigation into the merits
and demerits of co-operative buying and selling, and including an ex-
amination into alleged abuses connected with the mixing of grains in
elevators.
My idea, gentlemen, was this: Of course, the suggestions I make are purely
tentative. It is a matter for the Committee to decide; but what I thought we
might do was first, to decide whether there was anything else that we should
investigate. It seems to me that this memorandum pretty nearly covers every-
thing, but we might decide what subject we should take up first; and next, what
witnesses we should summon to Ottawa. We have a vast amount of informa-
tion in the different departments, especially in the Department of Agriculture,
which, it seems to me, it would be wise to place before the Committee at the
earliest possible date.
Hon. Mr. MOTHERWELL: May I make a suggestion at this stage. The
Committee is, of course, the one referred to in the Speech from the Throne in
which it was proposed to inquire into various phases of agriculture, including the
mixing of grain in our terminal elevators, and the conditions of the live stock
industry. After that proposal appeared in the Speech from the Throne, Mr.
Millar introduced a resolution with respect to the advisability of appointing a
Royal Commission to inquire into the grain trade. You remember the discus-
sion which took place in the House, and the general understanding was, as the
result of that discussion, that in the event of this Committee not being able to
deal with that question as thoroughly as might seem to be desirable, a Com-
mission would likely be appointed, especially if it was recommended by this
Committee. That is how the matter stands. Now the question is, will the Com-
mittee deal with any phase of that subject at all? Is it wise to take two bites
of a cherry? Would it be better to leave it to the prospective Royal Commis-
sion, or would it be desirable to take up the one question of mixing grain in the
terminal elevators, deal with that, and get some action taken by the Govern-
ment this session, leaving the larger question to a Royal Commission? You
could ask the Board of Grain Commissioners, the chief inspectors, and some
of the representatives of the terminal elevators to come here and give us infor-
mation which would enable the Government to pass legislation on that one
4 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
we might as well deal with it altogether. We could summon the Grain Com-
missioners here if we wanted to, and the Chief Grain Inspector, and two or
three mixing elevator managers and whoever else it is decided should be heard.
]:t should not take more than two or three days at the most in connection with
that question. But there is an argument against it, that is to say, you are
taking two bites at a cherry; you arc fussing up the trade, you are making them
feel that here is one more inquiry, and that there will doubtless be another one
next session, that there is always a number of bodies trying to dig into them.
On the other hand, there is a quite general demand for some kind of inquiry,
and the question is, what is the wisest course to take having regard to all the
activities outlined in this forecast here. It is a question of first things first, and
I do not feel like pressing anything in regard to that. What do you think your-
self, Dr. Tolmie?
Mr. C^LDWELL: There is another phase of it, Mr. Chairman. It is just
possible that in the limited time this Committee will have at its disposal we
would have to give it a superficial consideration and would not get to the
bottom of the grain trade as it should be done, and would thereby spoil the
chance of having a Commission to investigate it. I agree with Mr. Gardiner; I
feel that there are other very grave questions to be considered in Canada and
that it would not be possible for this Committee to do justice to all of this.
Hon. Mr. MOTHERWELL: Before we go any further on that, a new question
has arisen. It is not mentiond here, directly, and that is, the question of space
for our export cattle. We had Mr. Kennedy down here from Winnipeg represent-
ing the United Grain Growers; and he is chasing around the country looking for
space right now, which I think he has secured after great difficulty. This
question is one that is pressing on us just now, we have had representations made
to us by the exporters that they cannot get space; it is in the hands of a few
brokers and they control the situation.
The CHAIRMAN: I think, Mr. Minister, that that is covered in this memor-
andum, "the marketing and transportation facilities of the country in respect to
agricultural produce."
I-Ion. Mr. TOLMIE: As far as taking up the grain trade in connection with
this Committee is concerned, this is such a large question that we could never
begin to handle the whole thing. I would rather give attention to what is here
in the memorandum and have some commission enquire into the grain trade; then
we will have both things done well.
Mr. SALES: The last Commission that was appointed to investigate this
matter was held up by an injunction. :No injunction can upset this Committee.
Mr. CALDWELL: Mr. Gardiner's suggestion is a good one, that some means be
taken to find out what the possibilities are of a Grain Commission being held up.
I-Ion. Mr. MOTHERWELL: Anybody can raise or threaten an injunction, but
nobody will anticipate it. It is not until after you take action that injunction
proceedings are instituted.
The CHAmMAN: Suppose I confer with the Deputy Minister of Justice on
that point, he might make this answer, 'I do not think an injunction would carry
against a Royal Commission which might be appointed to investigate the grai
trade, but I am not prepared to say what attitude would be adopted by the grain
men of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, in which provinces this investiga-
tion may be conducted; therefore I cannot advise you.' I am afraid that is the
answer I might get from the Deputy Minister of Justice, if I applied to him.
Mr. CALDWELL: That is, if such an investigation threatened to encroach on
provincial rights, that province has the right to take action.
6 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Mr. SALES: Exactly; that is good.
Mr. CHAIRMAN: OW, if that is satisfactory, gentlemen, may I have
your attention to the next question.
Mr. McKAY: Is it the intention to get legislation for all the provinces
of the Dominion, or only the three western provinces?
The CHAIRMAN: I presume that, iust as we did with the Wheat Board,
it would possibly be confined to the three western provinces.
Mr. SALES: You would almost have to take in Ontario because it is at the
head of the lakes.
Mr. CALDWELL: And possibly the Maritime Provinces, as the winter
ports are there.
The CHAIRMAN: I will ask the question generally, and will get a general
idea. If it applied to one province it applies to all, because all the provinces
have the same rights. The next question, gentlemen, is, does this memorandum
present to your minds an adequate idea of the questions for inquiry.
Mr. SALES: We will take it up clause by clause.
The CAIRMAN: (reads).
"SuBJECTS suggested for investigation by special committee appointed
to inquire into agriculture conditions throughout Canada.
The present condition oI agriculture:
(a) in the Maritime Provinces;
(b) in Ontario and Quebec;
(c) in the Prairie Provinces;
(d) in British Columbia."
It seems to me that those four ,night present different features.
2. The causes of such conditions.
That is a very hard subject indeed.
"Where these conditions are unfavourable, an examination into
remedies, with special reference to the best methods of live stock market-
ing; the lowering of the production costs of meats; the development
of the bacon industry; of the beef industry. A special investigation into
the fruit industry as regards apples, tender fruits, small fruits and bush
fruits, involving the problems of production, marketing and transportation.
An investigation into the dairy industry along the lines of direction or
encouragement of breeding, suitable crop production and marketing.
Consideration of special lines of farming or particular crops as likely to
increase farm returns and afford diversification in production, with
regard to sugar beets, tobacco, flax, hemp, potatoes, special :Northern-
grown seeds of cereals, grasses, clovers, vegetables and roots, fur farming.
maple sugar industry, bee-keeping."
Mr. S.<LES: With regard to clause 2, "the lowering of the production costs
of meats"--
Mr. CALDWELL: Why not the lowering of production costs generally?
Mr. SALES: Or, lowering the cost of agricultural products?
Mr. CALDWELL: Lowering the cost of production of agricultural products.
The CHAmMAN: I do not think you need to do that, gentlemen. You will
note that clause 2 begins "Where these conditions are unfavourab]e, an examina-
tion into remedies". It seems to me that that is the broad thing. What follows--
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS ?
APPENDIX No. 3
"with special reference to the best methods of live stock marketing," etc.--these
are merely special branches.
Mr. CALDWELL: Why not cut out the word "meats," and lust leave the
phrase reading "lowering the costs of production"?
The CA1R.: I an quite willing.
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: The pure bred live stock industry is a very important
business and one which we might investigate.
The CHAmAN: We might put in the pure bred live stock industry.
Mr. CALD,VELL: And the health of aninals.
Hon. Mr. SCLAm: Why do you need to mention pure bred stock.
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: Practically everything is outlined in the memorandum,
but this is not mentioned.
The CH._.N: I do not think there is any harm, gentlemen, in having a
sort of special agenda; whether we ill be able to cover it all is another quest.ion.
We would probably be able to cover the point by inserting after "live stock
marketing" the words, "the pure-bred live stock industry, and health of animals."
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: Yes, that would cover it.
Hon. Ir. IOTHER,VF.LL: That would incidcntally raise the question of co-
operative marketing.
The CHA.: I have a special clause for that. The next Clauses are
4 and 5:
"4. The relation of prices of commodities purchased by agricultural
producers and the prices obtained by such producers for their own pro-
ducts."
"5. The banking and financial resources and credits of the country as
affecting agricultural producers, with an examination into the various
systems of rural credits in this and other countries."
I have indicated here a great deal more than we shall probably be able to
cover, but it is well to have a comprehensive programme before us.
Hon. Mr. SLoe,Am: Is it necessary for us to put that fifth clause in our
agenda? The question was discussed in the Itouse, and I thought it was to be re-
ferred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce.
The C.m.A: As I understand it, the whole question of the credit system
of the country was referred to the Committee on Banking and Commerce. My
idea was that we could possibly not discuss agricultural conditions adequately
without dealing with that subject, especially as it affects rural life and rural
operations.
Mr. CALDWELL: I think you are absolutely right, Mr. Chairman, due to
the fact that under the present Banking Act, or any other banking act which
might be passed, it is impossible to acconnnodate rural credit hrough rural banks,
due to the fact that. they must have their assets in a liquid condition.
Hon. Mr. TOLIIIE: No investigation of agricultural conditions would be
complete without it.
Mr. :HAIIMELL: In Ontario we have a series of rural credits which cover
it very creditably.
Mr. CALDWELL: I think it would be wise to have a report on how this works
out.
The CHAIRMAN: I think someone is etting reorts on Ontario and hIani-
toba, already.
8 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Mr. GARDINER: They are absolutely without the necessary means to give the
accommodation that is required. The report distinctly states that the number
of applications is far and away above their means to meet.
The CHAIRMAn: It is a live subject, which we had better investigate. The
next clause is :No. 6:
"The marketing and transportation facilities of the country in
respect to agricultural produce, with a special investigation into the merits
and demerits of co-operative buying and selling, and including an examin-
ation into alleged abuses connected with the mixing of grains in elevators."
We will leave the last part of Clause 6 over for further consideration, and
we might turn it over in our minds. With the exception of that last part of
Clause 6, are you satisfied with it?
Mr. SALES: I would say that down to "the merits and demerits of co-opera-
tive buying and selling," it would be satisfactory.
The CHAIRMAn: The next question is, what subject will we take up first,
and what procedure will we follow? May I make this suggestion, that we
should take one subject, say agricultural conditions in the Maritime Provinces.
If that is the best way to handle it, we might proceed by provinces, or by various
features of the agricultural industry, I do not know which is the better way.
Once we have decided that, we must decide whether we should discuss the matter
first and then summon witnesses, or summon witnesses, and then discuss the
matter.
Mr. ELLOTT: How would it do to take the subjects that are most pressing,
say, for instance, the live stock shipping conditions. We are coming to the
time of year when that is important.
Mr. SALES: We can discuss these things later, but in the meantime we should
determine what we want in the next week or so, what witnesses we desire to
call, because it will take some time to do it.
The CAIRMA: IS that not the idea of Mr. Elliott?
Mr. GARDINER: You raised the question just now, Mr. Chairman, of whether
it was advisable to take the matters by provinces or by subjects. I am firmly
convinced that we should proceed to deal with the matter by subjects.
The CAIRA: That is your view also, is it not, Mr. Tolmie?
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: Yes.
Mr. CALDWELL: IS it not a fact that this resolves itself into a matter of
provinces anyway, except the live stock industry?
The CAmMA: It does strike me that the different features of agriculture
are the main divisions, and the different provinces are the subdivisions; that is
the way it strikes me, and Mr. Gardiner as well. What do the rest of you
gentlemen think about that? It seems to me that we should decide that now.
Shall we take it by provinces, or areas, or should we discuss a subject, for
instance, as has been suggested, the subject of the export marketing of live stock?
Mr. ]VILNE: In that would come the question of transportation.
Mr. RoBinson: There are some subjects that apply to the whole of the
Dominion, and some are local, and it would seem to me that we should begin
with the general ones first, the ones applying to all provinces.
The CHAIRMAN: Say we start off by investigating the live stock industry,
with special reference to transportation cost. That is a pressing subject.
Mr. CALDWELL: I think the only way is to take it up by subjects. I think
it will resolve itself into a matter of geography in the end.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 9
APPENDIX No. 3
The CHAIRMAN: IS that the general view of the Committee, that we should
take up our investigation by subjects instead of by geographical areas? What
is the first subject we should take up, shall we take up the live stock industry?
I do not think we should make it too narrow.
Mr. CAL9WELL: I see no objection to that.
Mr. HAMMELL: I move that the first matter to be investigated be the live
stock industry of Canada.
The CHAIRMAN." Mr. Hammell has made a formal motion. 51r. Hammell
moves, seconded by Mr. Elliott, that the first matter of investigation be the live
stock indust .ry of Canada.
Mr. HAMMELL: Including the transportation cost.
The CHAIRMAN" Yes, of course. When we make use of the word "indus-
t .ry" we will understand in this Committee that it means the production, mar-
keting, transportation in fact, the development from the calf to the con-
sumer.
Mr. CALDWELL: Ot including dairying; that would be under a separate
head?
The CHAmMA': Yes, I think so, the live stock industry other than dairy-
ing. hIay I suggest that to Mr. Hammell, so there will be no question about it.
Mr. SALES: Divide it into phases, mention the different phases of it, so that
while we are talking about one thing we will not be thinking about another.
Mr. GARDINER: I would suggest that first of all we take the sense of the
committee with regard to this motion, and then we could proceed later on to
divide it into various parts.
The CHAmAN: Are all agreed to the motion?
Motion agreed to.
The CAmMAN: How will we take up this live stock question?
Mr. HAMMELL: I would suggest that we start first with production, and then
the final marketing.
Mr. CALDWELL: In view of the pressing need for space, why not deal with
the matter most urgent?
The CAmMAN: In view of the need of dealing with the question of space,
it seems to me that we might bein at the end and work towards the beginning.
Mr. MILNE: Why not make some subdivisions, and take what you want
first?
The CAmMAN: IS it the sense of the committee that we should proceed
with the question of the transportation of live stock first, having special refer-
ence to ocea.n space?
Agreed.
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: That is just to start with, on account of the immediate
need of information.
The CI-IAIIRMAN: Had we not better line up what we are going to do on
that subject, before we proceed further?
Mr. CALDWELL: I think, Mr. Chairman, that we will need at a very early
stage of the proceedings, to outline nearly our whole progrwmme. For instance,
if we are going to bring witnesses from the laritime provinces or anywhere,
we want to know some time ahead.
The CI-IAIRMAN: I am anxious to get it started, a,nd while I am in the
hands of the Committee, it seems to me that we might outline what we will
do on this subject, which will probably take several days.
12 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Mr. hC/IASTER: It is jUSt the same as if you summon a witness, you must
tender him travelling expenses.
Mr. CALDWELL: If they come voluntarily they do not get anything.
Mr. MCMASTEa: lOW, after the "Live stock Industry " what would you
think---
Mr. CALDWELL: Mr. Chairman, should we first decide the different phases
of the live stock industry, because transportation would naturally be our first.
The CHAmMA: I think you are right, sir. We are going to discuss trans-
portation first. What should we do after that?
Mr. S.ES: Live stock marketing--
The CHAmMA: Dr. Tolmie desires to make an observation.
The Hon. Mr. TOLIIIE: I was going to observe that after you get through
with this emergency consideration of transportation, the next best thing will
be to consider live stock conditions as we find them to-day in Canada, and their
disabilities, and take them up one at a time.
The CHAmMA: Moved by Dr. Tolmie, seconded by Mr. Sales, that after
we have dealt with the question of transportation of live stock we shall study
the industry as a whole.
The Hon. Mr. TOLIIIE: As it stands to-day.
The CHAmA: As it exists to-day in Canada, with the disabilities under
which it labours.
Mr. CALDWELL: Does this include the marketing of it?
The CHAmA: I think that had better be taken up as a separate head,
as I understand what we want to do is to get a recommendation about the
transportation with the shortest possible delay.
Mr. CALDWELL: That is why I asked the question. I think we should
separate those two.
The CHAmMA: I think we should, too. After the live stock industry,
should we decide now gentlemen what the next step should be? We might take
up dairying next, but it seems to me that perhaps we would be in a better posi-
tion to judge what is the next best thing to investigate after we have gone some-
what into this question.
Mr. CALDWELL: I think that is best. Let us get things started.
The CHAmMA: Mr. Sales.
Mr. SAES: I was wondering whether it would be possible to have the
Clerk of the Committee notify the agricultural organizations in the various
provinces, giving them the outline of this generally, because their executives
will have to meet and consider what they will do, and who shall represent them;
make them aware of what we are taking up.
The CHAnMA: I think the idea is a good one, but may I suggest a modi-
fication of that; that the Secretary be instructed to write the Minister of Agri-
culture of each Province who will be in touch with the agricultural organiza-
tions, and pass on the word, and of course the Press will be passing on the word
at the same time too. It seems to me it is very likely if we try to communicate
with all agricultural organizations direct, we will forget some, and they will
feel hurt, and it would be better to write to the official head of the agricultural
department of the different provinces, sending them a copy of the agenda, and
asking them to communicate with all interested parties.
Mr. CALDWEL: May I suggest also that an outline of the different phases
to b(: investigated be given to the Press generally.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 13'
APPENDIX No. 3
The CHAIRMAN: It seems to me we have made very good progress for our
first meeting, and I hope 3.30 to-morrow will suit everybody, and that we will
all be there.
The Committee adjourned until March 8, 1923, at 3.30 p.m.
HOUSE OF COMMON$,
COMMITTEE ROOM 268,
THURSDAY, March 8, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 3.30 p.m., Mr. A. R. McMaster in the chair.
The CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sales has a resolution which he has given me. Do
you wish to propose this resolution, Mr. Sales? Do you wish to address the
Committee ?
Mr. SALES: :Not unless they desire some information.
The CHAIRMAN:Is the Committee ready for the question? The clerk has
just pointed out to me that there are some orders from the House, granting us
leave to report from time to time, with power to send for persons, papers, and
records, and also to report from day to day our proceedings. These were
granted.
Mr. HAMMELL: Mr. Chairman, I have been approached by several members
who wish to know whether the members of Parliament will be supplied with
printed copies of the proceedings.
The CHAmMAN: We are getting enough printed for everybody.
Mr. CALDWELL: I hope they are being printed from day to day, because
possibly some members will not be able to attend every session, and they will
need to know what goes on.
The CHAIR.AN: We are having enough printed to distribute to everyone.
Is the Committee ready for the question on this resolution of Mr. Sales'?
Mr. Sales' idea is that we should ask for certain information from the Grain
Commissioners of Canada. Are all those present in favour of the resolution?
Resolution agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN: :NOW, I think the ne item is to start our examination into
the live stock industry, with particular reference to transportation.
My attention has been called to another matter. I wrote a letter to the
Deputy Minister of Justice, containing the question which I was asked to
submit to him by the Committee at its last meeting. I have written him and
as yet I have not received a reply. I will report progress and hope, at the
next sitting of the Committee, to be able to give further particulars. :Now I
think we will call on Dr. Grisdale. Would you prefer to be heard first, or
shall we call Mr. Arkell?
Dr. GRISDALE: What do you wish to take up?
The CHAIRMAN: We wish to take up the live stock industry, with special
reference to transportation, in regard to the alleged lack of space, or monopoly
of space, on ocean-going ships, the lack of space for export.
Dr. GRISDALE: I am afraid, Mr. Chairman, that we are not in a position
to discuss that to-day; we are not experts in that line, and we have not been
in a position to get full information together in that connection.
16 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Hammell: -
Q. The shipper has to take that chance himself? A. We cannot as the law
stands at the present time dictate what class of cattle shall leave Canada. You
will have a bill before you on Tuesday where some provision is made for that
kind of selection, should you gentlemen pass it.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. I understood there was a bill of that kind in process of preparation? A.
It is prepared.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Will this inspection be carried on by Canadian officials?---A Yes, sir, by
our official staff.
Q. And be acceptable on the other side?---A. They have agreed to accept
our certificates.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Will that increase the official staff?--A. It might increase it temporarily,
but not the inspection in Canada. You are making me go ahead a bit.
The CI-IAIRMAI: May I make a suggestion, gentlemen. I suggest that
questions do not run ahead of the Doctor's story.
The WITNESS: This one is running ahead.
The C.mMA: That is just mv suggestion; let us ask the Doctor
questions as we go on, on points that he "has touched.
Mr. I-IAMMELL: Rather be behind his story than ahead of it.
The WT,Ess: After they have been inspected and shipped under quarantine
for three full days, then they have to be inspected again at the port of embark-
ation, and they have to be tagged. We anticipated that the tag would be a plain
tag bearing the word "Canada". After we got back here, in fact, only last
month, a request came asking that they be branded with a large "C" on the left
hip. We protested that and they gave way because it had been agreed in the
pour parlers that there would be nothing like that. Then they asked that a
numbered tag be put on. We had not anticipated that, but, of course, we see no
objection to it on condition that they did not ask us to keep track of the cattle.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. These are ear tags?--A. These are ear tags. Thev will be about tw
inches long and will go in--I do not know whether it is the'left or the right ear;
it has always been the same ear. These serial numbers are for use over tlmre.
We do not have to keep track of the cattle, except in this way, that we have to
be ready to certify as to their origin, that they are born and brought up in
Canada; no aliens need apply.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. In case any question arises in England about any particular cattle--
A. Sir?
Q. In case any question a:'ises in England about any particular cattle--that
they are not free from diseases, can you trace that back and tell where they came
from by these serial numbers v A. :No, we do not want to. Ve do not need to.
If there is any of these diseases that break out in Canada we will know where
they are from quickly, withou any assistance from the numbering of them.
Q. My point is this, if they claim that certain cattle are diseased, can you
go back from the flock they came from and know that disease is in that flock--or
what was left of it? A. We will know in a general way. We would not be able
[Dr. 5. It. Grisdale ]
18
By Mr.
Q. Will the
the shipper? A.
SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A, 1923
Sales:
cost of the veterinary accompanying the cattle be imposed on
The Government will bear it for a time.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Do you not hope to do away with that after shipments have gone ahead
for a time?--A. Yes. It is a absolutely unnecessary precaution.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Does he have to give a certificate?-A. He has to give a certificate that
he has visited the cattle each day on shipboard.
By the Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. He has to be assured that Canada and Great Britain are on equal terms
as far as the condition of the cattle is concerned? A. Yes.
Q. On the other hand, Canada is the cleanest country in the world, while
they have the foot and mouth disease very frequently in Great Britain, we do
not have it here at all, and have not had it since 1884.--A. We had a telegram
yesterday of another outbreak in England.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Does this apply to the other overseas Dominions?--A. Hot up to this
point.
Q. They are not insisting on three day's quarantine? A. :No, I do not
think so.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. They have the same inspection before they embark?--A. I do not think
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Why not the same treatment of all the Dominions?
The CAmMh: I do not think we should enter into that.
The WITNESS: There is no use of asking me questions like that.
Mr. :H..MMELL: It is a very. important question, it seems to me.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. What about the United States? A. They cannot go at all.
The C.mA:. I made that remark in order to save time, not in a
spirit of criticism. We want to narrow the discussion as much as we can.
By Mr. Stherland:
Q. I understand from the statements that were published that the same
rule applies to Ireland as to Canada? A. After they land in England, but
previous to that they are different. The cattle must go in ships that will
not stop at any port between Canada and Great Britain. They must be ships
that have not been used for other cattle within twenty-eight days, or must have
been thoroughly disinfected. They must land at certain ports and at that
port they are received by British veterinarians, veterinary inspectors who
inspect them and give them certificates, and this is the first place where there
is a fee imposed, and that is payable by the shipper. Oh, there is another thing;
there will be a fee for the tags. That will have to be paid for by the shipper. :e
do not see any reason why the Dominion Government should pay that.
_Dr. J. H. Grisdale.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 21
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Did I understand you to say there was nothing to prevent them from
killing store cattle if they wished to after they land?---A. :No, not that I know
of.
Q. Are you sure on that point? A. Yes.
Q. Why could that not be overcome by shipping them all as store cattle?--
A. That is what I am trying to tell you. I recommend they all be shipped as
store cattle.
Q. Is there anything to prevent that?--A. Not that I know of. I looked
into it fully, and I know of something that would interfere.
Q. That would be the only advantage of shipping fat cattle. The old regu-
lations remain as they are?A. Yes, if they are shipped as fat cattle, they must
be held for that. The only advantage now is that they can be shipped from Port-
land or an American port. If they go as stores, they must go from St. John
or Halifax at the present time.
By Mr. Sales
Q. Is it not a fact that what they call "fat cattle" are consumed as store
cattle?---A. A great many of the fat cattle, to judge from what I have seen, both
alive and dead, had better be fed for a few weeks before being killed. That is
why I recommend they go as store cattle.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. In ny case the journey is hard on them--they will shrink? A. No, as
a rule they gain.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. There is this important point, there, I used to be in the butcher business,
and I think I understand a little bit about it. Meat from animals on a voyage gets
rather black in colour; it does not bleed out nicely, and is not as bright and good
looking as when it is raised in the Old Country. That is what we called the
"Bloom." Five or six weeks will put the bloom on these Canadian cattle of
ours, give the flesh that bright appearance and will then qualify as good as
English cattle? A. I think that is correctly sizing up the situation.
Q. It is twenty-seven years ago since I left the business, but I presume the
conditions are something similar yet.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. I understand there is quite a difference, Dr. Grisdale, between what is
recognized as store cattle in the corn belt in the United States, running from 700
to 800 lbs. and the store cattle in Great Britain nmning for stores, from 1,100
or 1,200 Ibs.?---A. :Not so heaw, they will run about 1,000 lbs.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Before you leave that, will it not be possible to ship from Montreal under
these regulations?--A. I said "at the present time" you cannot ship from Mont-
real to-day.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Yon cannot ship from Montreal in the winter months.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. During the summer months?--A. Yes.
Q. There is nothing in the regulations to prevent that?--A. :No. I said
"at the presenb time." You would have three ports open, if you wanted to ship
[Dr. $. H. Orisdale.]
22 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
fat cattle, and it is shorter to Portland or Boston than it is down to St. John or
Halifax, and more boats call there, but if you ship as stores, you have only two
ports open for them. If they are fed cattle, you have all the ports on the
Atlantic coast open.
Q. Is it not a fact that all of the fed cattle is shipped in the summer
months? A. I think most of it will go in March and April and possibly May.
Q. Store cattle?--A. Store cattle, yes, and in August and September, and
pttrticularly Octobcr---that is when our store cattle will go forward--some in
November. There was a great demand last fall, when I was there, and if we
had been able to ship them last fall. we could have sold them very readily.
By the Chairman:
Q. Are you prepared to inform the Committee as to the relative cost of
transportation via St. John and Halifax, or via Portland?--A. :No.
1Now, as to the ports which are open. Landing places.--Here is a memo-
randum specifying the requirements of the Ministry as regards the conducting
of landing places for animals from overseas.
"Landing places in Great Britain for animals from overseas must
conform with the following requirements of the Ministry of Agriculture
and Fisheries for the purposes of the administration of the Disease of
Animals Acts and the Orders of the Minister thereunder:--
1. leception lairs or yards in which animals forming separate car-
goes can be detained and examined from time to time by a Veterinary
Inspector of the Ministry, must be provided. These must be immediately
adjacent to the landing stage, or alternatively a run or other means of
access must be provided leading directly from the landing stage to the
reception lairs or yards. The run or other means of access must be used
solely for the purposes of an;_mals landed in pursuance of the Orders, and
must be close-fenced so as to prevent the escape of any animal
2. The whole of the premises used for the purpose of the Landing
Place must be completely fenced in with high close fencing and must be
used solely for the purposes of the Orders.
3. All parts of the reception lairs or yards used for animals and also
the run or other means of access leading thereto from the landing stage,
must be so paved as to be capable of being thoroughly cleansed by
washing with water.
4. The 'reception lairs' must be roofed so as to give protection to the
animals. Adequate lighting must be provided including artificial light.
Provision must also be made for the proper drainage and adequate
ventilation of the buildings and for water supply.
5. Arrangements must be made for the provision within the 'Landing
Place' of accommodation for slaughtering animals, capable of being made
use of, at short notice, for the slaughter if necessary of all the animals
which may be in the Landing Place at any particular time.
6. The 'Landing Place' must also include within its limits observa-
tion and isolation pens for sick animals and a manure pit.
7. Suitable accommodation must be provided for the tying, feeding
and watering of the animals whilst in the Landing Place. There should
be a fodder store, capable of holding, say, a week's supply, in order to
guard against interruption of supplies.
8. Accommodation must be provided for the use of the Ministry's
Veterinary Inspectors who are charged with the duty of examining the
animals whilst in the reception lairs or yards.
[Dr. J. H. Grisdale.]
24 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
not be completed in a few days as many people without knowledge of
what Government machinery is seem to suppose. I can assure you,
however, that the matter is being pressed forward with the utmost
expedition possible.
(4) In addition to the ports mentioned the Ministry has learned
that others are considering the question of establishing Wharves. These
are as follows:m
Port Name and address of occupiers
Bristol (Avonmouth) ........ Bristol Docks Committee, Queen
Square, Bristol.
Cardiff .................. The Great Western Railway Company,
Paddington Station.
Falmouth .............. The Canadian Pacific Railway Com-
pany, Charing Cross, S.W.
Harwich ................ The London and North Eastern Rail-
way Co., Marylebone Station,
lXI.W.I.
Hull .................. The London and North Eastern Rail-
way Co., Marylebone Station,
lXI. W. I.
Leith .................. The Leith Dock Board, Leith.
London (Deptford) ........ The City Corporation. Guildhall, E.C.
Newcastle ................ The Corporation of Newcastle, lXIew-
castle.
Obviously the above are likely to decide the question on a financial
basis."
I have brought a map of Great Britain which will give you some idea of the
location of those different points.
The CHAIR.MA.: Just point them out, please, beginning ,t Dundee on the
Northeast coast.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. There is rather a big iump round the South coast? A. There is Fal-
mouth, and of course it is not very far from London or I-Iarwich. Bristol and
Cardiff are very easily reached along the South coast.
"Most of them have asked the Ministry whether, supposing they go
to the expense of establishing Wharves and Landing Places, a supply of
cattle will be guaranteed sufficient to pay a reasonable interest on their
expenditure. Sometimes that expenditure is a question of buildings;
sometimes it is a question of dredging and sonetimes it is a question of
both. Clearly the question is one which the Ministry is unable to an-
swer. It can only be answered by the Canadian exporter, or the Canadian
Department which may deal with the export of cattle.
I venture to suggest, therefore, that you might get in touch with the
portal authorities mentioned, with a view to discussing the possibilities
and probabilities. For your information I may tell you their attitude,
so far as I have gathered it. They say:--If cattle are coming regularly
from Canada, anti the number, even if it be equally distributed over each
of the ports, only amounts to say 1,000 or 2.000 animals for each port, it is
clear that there 'ill not be iustification for expending the sum of money
necessary to equip an Imported Animals Wharf, although the conditions
as regards equipment, etc. are not in the least unreasonable. They also
say that they would like some assurance that the Canadian trade will
[Dr. ft. 1I. Grisdle.]
26 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
.13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I presume you are making a study, or perhaps you have already made
a study of the localities to which our cattle should be shipped?--A. Yes.
Q. Take the east coast?--A. There are Dundee, Leith and Newcastle.
Q. I am referring to the east coast of England?--A. There is Harwich.
On the east coast there are Dundee, Leith, Newcastle, Harwich and London.
Q. Take the county of Norfolk. There is a tremendous quantity of barley
grown in that district, and Harwich would be the proper point to unload the
cattle for that district? A. Yes.
Q. That would mean the cattle going in the fall to feed in the winter?
A. Yes.
Q. Their season corresponds with ours, their harvest season is the same
as ours, and the same would apply to Scotland. But to ship cattle to Liverpool
and then take it by train to Harwich would mean a loss? A. It would be
rather expensive, for the freight rates there are higher than they are here.
Q. I suppose you will take all these things into consideration in advising
shipments?--A. We cannot control that. We cannot say to a shipper, "You
had better go to Harwich or Dundee, or Leith." He goes where he likes.
Q. But you can advise them?--A. We might advise them.
Q. I think you will find something worth studying there? A. Yes. I may
say that tremendous interest has been awakened across the water in connection
with the importation of our cattle. We have heard a good deal of it here, and
the shipping companies in Montreal have been hearing even more. Mr. Coates
informed me the other day that the interest and excitement on the other side
is tremendous. You would think we were going to ship a million cattle, but
I do not anticipate that anything like that number will go forward, so that some
of them are going to be disappointed. The men who are anticipating great
things are the dealers. They are very numerous over there and very keen. For
instance, to give you an idea of what some of them are doing, I have here a
plan which I received a few days ago, outlining one man's preparations--perhaps
preparations is not the proper word---his plan of anticipated preparations. This
man, is the president of the co-operative organization who are interested in
this importation, and he proposes to establish those yards which are marked on
the plan at Pakenham.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That is the district I was speaking of? A. Yes. That is the county of
Norfolk. But of course, he would have to receive his cattle at the nearest port
to that, Harwich.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Yes.
The WTNESS: This firm, or rather this body of men, are very keen on
handling the cattle themselves, brining them right from here, and handling
them through their distributing yards. In that part of the country they want to
get their cattle in the fall.
Q. Yes?---A. I might say--I have not much more to say in connection
with the facilities for moving, or anything else I might say that when I was
in Great Britain in October, I made it a point to go out and visit their farms,
where cattle were being handled, imported Irish stores, and with very few ex-
ceptions I found the Irish cattle to be a pretty good class of cattle, better than
our average. They were not better than anything we produced, but better than
our average, which means that if we are going to compete satisfactorily with
these Irish cattle, we will have to be pretty careful of the class of cattle we ship,
[Dr. J. H. Grisdale.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 33
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Are you sure you are right about 83 at Winnipeg, and 9 cents at
Toronto?--A. Yes, that is the statement I have here.
Q. You cannot get from Winnipeg to Toronto for one quarter of a cent?--
A. I have only the statement here--
Mr. HAbIMELL: The difference would be in going from Winnipeg to Mont-
real, as against going from Toronto to Montreal.
The WT.ss: There is a little discrepancy there, but I do not just get it
at the moment. However, the comparison stands. Taking the average value
of the two year olds and the three year olds, we think $110 is the average price,
the price on which we can base our calculations.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. You are just taking advantage of the basis on the present market?--
A. Yes.
Q. Do you allow any profit to the dealer?--A. No, just to break even. We
are not questioning any allowance for profit at, all.
Q. Taking the cost at the price they realize in the Old Country?--A. Yes.
That is it.
Estimating then the cost at $110, the price which is equal t,o $5.75 at
Calgary, $6 to $6.25 at Winnipeg, and $6.75 to $7 at Toronto--Mr. Sales was
quite right; there is a variation there--plus the cost, of exporting--my point is
this, that, a 1,100-pound steer worth $110 on the calculation, the average calcu-
lation, cost excluded, would be worth $5.75 at Calgary, $6 to $6.25 at. Winnipeg,
and $6.75 t,o $7 at, Toronto. That is the closest calculation we have been able
to make, giving the comparison of prices at, the present, time. The British prices
quoted are for first, quality stock in all grades.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Just a moment ago you spoke of yearlings, two-year olds and three olds.
Is there any difference in the ocean freight between a yearling an a two-year
old?--A. Well, only you may get, four cattle into a space for three.
Q. Are you credited for that?--A. You are, if you can get, that in, if you
are allowed t,o get that in, but, otherwise the cost, is calculated upon the price
per head.
By Mr. Hmmell:
Q. So many square feet of space for each animal?--A. Yes. You are not
always allowed to do that. That is a matter of the shipping regulations, and
the management of the boat, but, in the case of the smaller cattle, it is occasion-
ally allowed.
Q. You might possibly get. five in in the place of four?--A. Yes. You are
aware that otherwise the cost is the same.
Bg Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. These prices are based on the selling price of that, steer in Brit,ain?--A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What are the prices of similar or identical cattle in those three places
at the present time, without taking advantage of the export business?---A. The
present prices of feeder cattle in the public market at Toronto at, the present
time are as follows: $5.75 to $7.
Q. And in Calgary?---A. $2.75 to $4.50, as against $5.75.
Q. That is just a comparison?--A. Yes. Winnipeg, $3.50 to $5, as against
$6 and $6.25.
[Mr. H. S- Arkell.]
36 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Grain may be chartered through to Montreal on a through rate, to any
mills so long as the grain is moving eastward at one cent a bushel. I can
readily see that the western Ontario men may very well finish our cattle to
a higher state of perfection than we can in the West, because they grow so much
corn and fodder. If we could have a through rate, would that not help the
situation a great deal? Have you taken that up?---A. Yes, that proposal has
been discussed on different occasions.
Q. What is the result? A. :Not very favourable as yet.
Q. I do not see why the milling industry should have those privileges, and
not another industry?--A. I think it is a matter of maintaining the identity of
the stuff and preventing fraud.
Q. You could ear-mark them as Doctor Grisdale proposes? A. We have,
as you know, a through dairying rate at the present time, with certain privileges
in the West, which is a very considerable concession by the railways.
Q. I think that is a point which should be taken into consideration. Them
is just one other point perhaps, too. Your rates in Winnipeg and Calgary are
based on a $20 ocean rate. Is there any such $20 ocean rate in existence to-day?
--A. That is raising a question--
By the Chairman:
Q. To the best of your knowledge and belief? A. Mr. Chairman, it involves
the whole question of whether you can get the space. I think that is what is in
the mind of Mr. Sales.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. It is not fair to quote those figures unless this $20 ocean rate is in
existence, or is in prospect of being in existence? A. That is the rate charged.
Q. It is?---A. Absolutely, yes. I thought you had in mind whether you could
get space at that rate. That is quite another question.
Q. Another point, you made a remark about men feeding cattle in the west
and going to California in the winter. How many men have you personally
known who did that, because I do not know of any.
The CHAmMA: I guess they must come from Alberta.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many have you personally known who spent their winters in
California? A. I did not mean that as an insinuation upon the western farmers,
and I hope it will not be so interpreted.
Q. Can you mention any? A. Yes, sir. The illustration I gave you was in
the office of the manager of the Saskatoon exhibition, and the man to whom I
had reference was a man who lived just 20 miles west of Saskatoon.
Q. You have actually met one man? A. Yes, that was the illustration
I gave.
Mr. ShLS: It is a very small percentage.
Mr. HhMMELL: He did not suggest that it was the general rule.
WITESS: I did not suggest that.
The CHamMa: Are there any further questions which members desire
to ask Mr. Arkell?
Witness retired.
Mr. BOUCARD moved that a report be presented to the House recommend-
ing that a quorum of this Committee be five members.
Mr. ELLIoar seconded.
Motion agreed to.
[Mr. H. . Arkell.l
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 37
APPENDIX I1o. 3
The CI-IAIRMAN: It is moved by Mr. Sales and seconded by Mr. Gardiner
that Messieurs D. A. Campbell of Montreal and Mr. John Brown of Gait be
summoned as witnesses to give testimony before this Committee on Tuesday
next.
The Committee adjourned until Friday, March 9, at 10.30 a.m.
Horse oF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOM 268,
FRIDAY, March 9, 1923.
The Special Con}mittee appointed to enquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 10.30 a.m., Mr. McMaster, the Chairman, presiding.
The CHAIRMAN: I must thank the Committee for their promptness. Who
is the first witness who wants to be heard. Mr. Taylor?
Mr. LIONEL E. TAYLOr, called and sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Taylor, what is your full name? A. Lionel E. Taylor.
Q. And where do you come from?--A. Kelowna, British Columbia.
Q. Are you appearing on behalf of yourself or on behalf of some asso-
ciation?--A. I am appearing on behalf of the British Columbia Fruit Growers'
Association.
Q. Would you like to make a statement first and then be questioned after-
wards? A. Might I explain, first, that we had no brief prepared for this
Committee, but we are very much obliged to you for the hearing, since we are
here in Ottawa, on the fruit business, but I am not prepared to give a full
statement of our case. I would simply like to lay before you some of the aspects
of the fruit business and later on to file a brief on behalf of our Association.
Q. May I ask you another question? Would you prefer to be questioned
as you go along, or would you rather have members of the Committee make notes
of what they wish to question you about, and question you when you are
finihed?--A. It is quite immaterial, because I have no set speech to make. I
might say that we only heard last night at ll o'clock that wwere going to have
this privilege.
Q. I may say that we went out of our beaten path so you could get home to
British Columbia.--A. We appreciate that very much.
If I might be allowed to make a statement as to the position of the fruit
industry at the present time in British Columbia; we have passed through rather
stirring times during the past year, and we have accomplished I think a great
deal which will have a great bearing on the industry', and I would like, if I
may, to sketch what has been done this year, and I will do it as briefly as possible,
and if you wish more information I can give it to you as we go along.
In 1921 we were confronted with a very bad market with regard to prices
and things looked rather serious. A good deal of this was attributed to our
shippers consigning fruit. Up to 1921--up to the end of 1920--the way the
fruit was sold was that the shipper or shipping firm or packing house or what-
ever you might call them, bought the fruit from the growers at a fixed price, and
after the growers had delivered the fruit to the shipping firms, the growers had no
[Mr. Lionel E. Tavl,,-
38 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
further interest in it, excepting to receive the money. But in 1920 the shippers
met with large losses in the price of fruit. They had met losses in previous
years, too. I do not say that they did in every year, but they discontinued
that method of marketing, and from 1921 on very little fruit was bought by the
shipping firms. They handled everything on a commission basis. Let us say
the growers paid the shippers a certain sum, 65 or 60 cents a box to pack an,]
market the fruit. That included their profit.
Q. You mean fruit of all kinds?---A. That applies to apples and pears---that
price. It varies with other commodities.
At a meeting held lust a year ago, I think it was in April of last year, it
was pointed out to the growers by the Government officials--the Marketing
Commission--that our methods were bad, that the market was not being handled
in the way it should be done, that this consigning was ruining our business, and
the outcome of this was that a committee was appointed by the growers, a
committee of eight, to watch the market during the nex% year, and to see where
the fault lay, and really to watch the shippers and see that the growers were
getting a fair deal from the shippers. I happened to be the chairman of that
committee, and watched the thing pretty closely during the year. About the
middle of September we were advised that the market was in a deplorable state;
that prices had gone down to a ruinously low level and everything was on a
consignment basis; everything was being marketed on a consignment basis.
Well, we had an understanding with the shippers early in the season that they
would do everything they could to prevent this consignment business, and every
step was taken to market the fruit on an f.o.b, basis.
When this serious state of affairs became known in September--and I
might say that the banking interests were considerably perturbed over this as
they had very large advances out to the growers, and we had meetings with
them, and with the business interests, and we were urged by the growers to go
out through the prairie markets and find out what the condition of affairs was.
General Harmon and myself, two growers, went out on the prairies and spent
about two weeks investigating things for ourselves. We visited Calgary and
motored from Calgary about 80 miles north towards Edmonton, visited the
country points, and saw the farmers and the retail stores. We visited Edmonton
and Saskatoon and Winnipeg, and what we did during this period was to visit
as many as we could of the retail stores and find out what the prices of fruit
were, and what the consumers were paying, and what the retailers paid for
fruit from the shippers, and if we were in doubt as to any price, we got them to
produce their books. I have a great many notes here on prices, and we also
found out from the.shippers what they had paid for the fruit from the jobbers.
It was quite evident to us from the time we started investigating in Calgary.
that the market was in a most deplorable condition. The fruit was being sold
at a price greatly under the cost of production. In a great many cases we found
that fruit was being sold at a price that would not pay for the cost of packing
and transportation. We found in a great many cases the growers would be
called upon to pay anything from 10 to 20 cents, " red ink " for the privilege
of shipping this fruit.
By ll[r. Caldwell:
Q. Do you mean by " red ink " on the wrong side of the ledger? A. Yes.
The price fruit was selling at did not pay for the cost of packing it and shipping
it. Over and above giving away the fruit we had to give away some money
for the privilege of shipping it.
The one thing that struck us particularly after we recovered from the shock
of the low prices was that there was a great deal of fruit being shipped direct
[hIr. Lionel E. Taylorl
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 39
APPENDIX No. 3
by growers to the retailers, and all this fruit was being shipped direct on consign-
ment, direct by the growers.
By the Chairman:
Q. Did you investigate what the consumer was paying for it?A. Yes.
Q. You are going to touch upon that?---A. I happen to have my notes here
taken at the time, but they are not in shape to give you in any form, but when
we make out our brief I can give you this in the detail.
Q. But just as we pass--to what extent, if any, was the consumer getting
tl:e benefit of the low prices?--A. The consumer was getting the fruit at an
extraordinary low price.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. In some places.---A. At the points we covered from the end of September
until about the 10th of October. That was the time we were out there to
see for ourselves. We interviewed a number of farmers and farmers' wives, and
everybody agreed that they were getting the fruit at a price they never dreamed
they could get it for. The general comment was " we are getting fruit cheap,
but we do not know what you are getting out of it."
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Did that apply particularly to apples?---A. No, it did not apply particu-
larly to apples. Prunes, and apples, and pears--it did not apply quite so much
to pears. Every type of fruit was selling at an extremely low price. For
instance, I might mention prunes, because there were lots of prunes in the
market at that time. They were selling at 50 cents a crate, and the f.o.b.
price was 75 cents Okanagan. They should have been selling around $1.10.
Q. What was the condition of the fruit?--A. It was in excellent condition.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is there not some business done by ordering direct by the merchant
from you at a price you ask early in the season?--A. You mean mail orders?
Q. No. A man wants a carload and he orders it in advance.--A. I will
deal with that a little later.
Q. Why I wanted to bring that point now is the awkward position in which
the merchant of this kind finds himself when he has to compete with some-
thing that is sent on consignment. A. I will explain that to you now. I will go
back to where I left off and follow on with that matter.
As a result of our investigation, we came to the conclusion that the retailers
and the wholesalers were losing money. There was no possible question but
that the retailers and wholesalers were losing money at that time, and for this
reason, that the who!csalers had made contracts early in the season for fruit at
a certain price, at a price we found was a particularly low price. It was a very
low price. They had no conception that prices would drop to the level they did.
They in turn sold to retailers, and the retailers got, if I may say " badly stung ".
They bought supplies, and the prices dropped, and the retailers were left with the
fruit at a 25 or 50 cents higher price than they could sell it for.
To gi,e you one example of what has happened. At the city market I
remember one particular lot of pears which attracted my attention, as being
a large pear grower. They were beautiful fruit. We inquired of the o'ner what
he paid for this fruit, and what he was selling it at. He told us that he had
bought 200 boxes--I am not sure whether it was 100 or 200, but, anyv;ay, he
bought a quantity of this fruit the previous day at $2 a box. In the afternoon
he bought some more at $1.75. The market had dropped since morning 25
cents a box. And we saw that fruit being sold the nex'c morning for $1 retail.
fMr. Lionel E. Taylorl
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 41
APPENDIX No. 3
the figures I can show you, of quotations in every store we went into. I will
not deal any more with that situation, but I 'ill pass on now with what we have
done, and what we want to do. When we got back, General Harman and I
visited the fruit centres and held some thirty meetings and put up to the growers
the marketing situations as we saw it.
We did not suggest the remedies. We were not out for any one particular
organization against another. We 'ere absolutely impartial We told the
growers exactly what the situation was as regards the market. The outcome of
that was that after we had been aroun,t the province a convention was called
of the fruit, growers to see what could be donc to remedy our internal troubles,
and it as decided that the on!y hope was to stop internal competition and have
our marketing done under some system of control. At that convention a com-
mittee was appointed with instructions to organize the independent shipping
houses, apart from the one co-operative
that the marketing could be done under
instructed to bring in a report within
co-operative marketing to be applicable
organization--to organize all these so
one central control. They were also
three months for a system of true-
for 1924; it was not thought at that
time it could be done for 1923. Shortly after that meeting, I think it -as the
next week, Dr. Macklin, a farming co-operative export from Wisconsin, hap-
pened to be passing through and wc had the benefit of his advice on this question.
By tle Clairan:
Q. What is his full name and address?--A. Dr. Macklin; I think it is
University, Yisconsin. Is that right, Dr. Tolmie?
Hon. Dr. TOLMIE: I could not tell you exactly.
The CN: The officials in the Department will know.
The 'ITNESS: Dr. Macklin met our committee and went into the scheme
as we proposed it and told us that it was absolutely unsound, that you could
not combine a business organization--I mean an independent shipping firm--
with the co-operatives; that that was fundamentally wrong. As Mr. Sapiro
later described it, a lion may lie down with a lamb but the lamb will always
end up inside the lion in any business of this kind.
By the Clairma:
Q. Which would be the lion and which the lamb?--A. I think we are the
lambs all right.
Q. The co-operatives? ._. The gro'ers. The follo'ing week or t'o weeks
Mr. Sapiro, hir. Aaron Sapiro, a co-operative expert from California was got
in. Mr. Sapiro nct our committee and he bore out 'hat Dr. Macklin had said,
that this principle of controlled marketing 'as absolutely unsound, and that
there was no reason whatever that we should not have one co-operative organi-
zation 'orking this year. He held some four meetings. He held a meeting
for the business people of Yancouver first of all, 'hich I had the pleasure of
hearing. He pointed out to the business people of Vancouver that their success
depended on the farming interests; that they could not succeed as business men
in Vancouver unless they got behind the farmers to the very limit. He attri-
buted their success to the co-operative organization of California, to the fact
that the business people 'ere behind them, and that until that happened they
had failed for 12 years they bad failed more or less by not having the business
people behind them. And he in'pressed the business people of Vancouver, as
I -ill tell you in a minute. He held four meetings in the Okanagan, and bad
as many as 800 at a meeting, and very much impressed the growers. The
committee then decided that they would proceed on the co-operative marketing
pl,n, and to cut a long story short, another convention 'as held and this new
[Mr. Lionel E. Ta'lor]
42 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
co-operative marketing plan was put before the growers. We met for three days.
There was a delegation of six business men from Vancouver; they attended this
convention on behalf of the Vancouver Board of Trade. They stayed through
the convention and when the whole thing was thoroughly discussed, plans were
put before the convention. They held a meeting amongst themselves, and came
back to our convention and announced that they so much believed in this
system of co-operative marketing that they would guarantee to take up or sell
$500,000 worth of bonds and to assist us in financing our organization. They
have come through with half a million dollars to assist us in taking over the
buildings which belonged to the independent shipping houses.
By the Chairman:
Q. Did they implement that undertaking?---A. They did, on one main con-
dition, that we have 85 per cent of our tonnage signed up on five year contracts.
That was very important; it is the basis of the co-operative scheme.
By l[r. Caldwell:
Q. That is, that your growers agreed to put 85 per cent of their tonnage
through the co-operative?--A. Yes. The committee then got out of a form of
contract of which I have a copy here.
By the Chairman:
Q. Will you please file a copy with the committee?---A. Yes, sir. We had
a campaign a week before I left the 0kanagan. I might say that this co-oper-
ative organization was not to be put through unless we got 80 per cent signed
up before a certain day. When I left a week go last Saturday, the committee
announced that they had the 80 per cent signed up; they got that within a
week, and with the absentee owners whom we could not get to sign, but whom
we know will sign, we have 92 per cent of our total crop signed up under this
one co-operative organization.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. What method did they take to get them signed up; it was certainly some
accomplishment?---A. What we did was, we had a local committee in each
district, a strong committee. They had sub-committees divide up their
individual districts into small areas and make a hurricane campaign; they visited
every grower, got after every single man.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. tIouse to house canvass?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is every contract duly witnessed and signed?---A. Yes; it is duly signed
and witnessed--a legal document absolutely--absolutely binding on all growers
to market through this organization, provided 80 per cent were signed up.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. And if 80 per cent were not signed up?--A. They would be torn up.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. And the cost of doing this was--? A. Nothing.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Done voluntarily by the members of your organization? A. Yes, abso-
lutely. That brings us to the point that we are trying to help ourselves iD
solving our internal problems--of competition amongst ourselves. I would like
[Mr. Lionel E. Taylor]
AGRICULTURAL C01 DITIONS 43
APPENDIX No. 3
to deal now with some of the other phases which affect our industry. I have
shown you how we have tried to help ourselves. We have great hopes, with the
elimination of our internal competition, that we shall make progress. I would
like to point a few things that will help us to do that.
By the Chairman:
Q. Before you pass to that feature of the case, Mr. Taylor, would you mind
telling us just how this great co-operative organization will market the goods
when it gets into operation?---A. I cannot tell you definitely, because the policy
cannot be decided until we have our permanent Board of Directors which will
be elected very shortly. At present we have only a temporary committee. I
am not on that committee and although they are working on the details of the
scheme, I cannot give you any information on that at the moment, but it will
be available to you a little later on.
Q. Perhaps you could just approximate what the idea is in this connection?
--A. Well, as far as I know, one of the points Mr. Sapiro emphasizes is, setting
the price of our product to the consumer instead of setting it at the point of
production--setting the prices or naming the prices to the consumer. What we
feel is that the people on the prairies have to pay too much for the fruit in pro-
portion to what we get for it. There is no doubt on that. I do not know what
the situation was last year, but in previous years the spread has been too big.
We think that there is no possible doubt that the consumer can get his fruit
cheaper and that we can get more for it. We believe that this spread can be
reduced by naming the price to the consumer, at the consumer's end. The con-
sumer cannot then be held up in the way he has been, I think, in the past.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Do you propose to set the scale of prices for the different handlers?--A.
Unfortunately we cannot set anything really; the prices that we quote have to be
comparative prices; we have to compete with the United States, and, in our case,
with Ontario. We have no control over the railway rates, unfortunately.
Q. But I mean the profits to jobbers and retailers. A. Oh, yes; most
certainly.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Will you attempt, Mr. Taylor, to make zones? That is, if Saskatchewan
is enioying a sixty cent rate, will that be the full price for apples at all points?
A. I would not like to say, because I do not know what has been arranged; I
could not really say anything on that.
By the Chairman:
Q. I am not quite so interested in that phase of it, Mr. Taylor, though it is
interesting; but how will this co-operative organization be n? Will you have a
board of directors and a general manager?A. The proposed arrangement is
that there shall be eighteen directors, representing every section of the province.
Those eighteen directors will be elected by their respective districts. The dis-
tricts will be divided up into a number of locals and eacl local will have an
elector. Say, there are five locals in one district, that district will have five elect-
ors and those five electors will get together and elect a director for the Central.
There are to be eighteen directors on the Central; and I may say that we have
provided for one director representing the business interests. The proposition was
that one director be elected by the Boards of Trade of British Columbia.
By the Chairman:
Q. Just to make my point clear, in reading what Mr. Sapiro said at some
meetings in Ontario, I learned that under their organization in California they
[Mr. Lionel E. Tn)'lor]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 45
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. You made the statement a few moments ago that you would name the
price the consumer would have to pay for his fruits? Can you tell the committee
how you propose to arrive at that price?---A. :Naturally the first consideration
is the competitive prices. What we claim is that we are entitled to the cost of
production. We can give you figures showing what the cost of production is,
which we will file later on. We claim that we are entitled at least to the cost
of production. We take the cost of production and a fair profit, and put on the
freight and the wholesalers' profit. That will give the price at which you
should be able to have a profit.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What is your idea of a fair profit?--A. That is rather difficult to say,
but if I could get 10 cents or 20 cents a box for the average, I would be pleased.
If I could get a guarantee of the average cost of production, I would be very
pleased to make a contract to sell my fruit for five years at the average cost of
production.
Q. You include your own labour?---A. Yes.
Q. And the interest on your moncy?---A. Yes.
Q. You include these in the cost of production?--A. Yes.
Q. And then you expect 15 or 20 cents a box over and above that?---A. In
figuring out the cost of production the Government does not consider the man's
wages, that is, it does not consider any salary for the owner except for the number
of hours he actually works at the current rate of wages. That is the way it is
figured out by the Government, and also by the University in making their
investigation.
By the Chairman:
Q. Where was that investigation, in British Columbia?--A. In British
Columbia, yes. It has been held in Washington as well.
Q. Tell us about that investigation, it night be interesting to get a copy
of that report?--A. It was made by the university under the agricultural
extension grant, I think. Is that it, Doctor Tolmie?
Hon. Mr. WOLMIE: Under the aid to agriculture.
The WTESS: They have an expert working under that Act, and the fund
is provided by that Act to investigate the cost of production of various farm
products. They have investigated the cost of producing apples two years ago,
and last year they held an investigation as to the yields for the different varieties.
They have made investigations as to the cost of growing strawberries, the report
of which has iust come out; and they have made other investigations as regards
other lines of agriculture.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. Can you tell the Committee to what extent in your opinion, speculative
land values enter into the cost of production? A. It depends on what those
investigators take as a fair value. They did not take the cost of the land; they
took a fair valuation of the land at the time. They did not take what we paid
for the land ten years ago. It would make a great difference. They take the
actual fair value of the land.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What it could be sold for? A. Yes, what it could be sold for.
Q. Can you tell me how many boxes the average man would produce in a
year?--A. I have a bulletin here of this investigation which has iust been got
[Mr. Lionel E. Taylor]
46 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923,
out. ttere is table :No. 7, made by Mr. Middleton. It is the Agricultural Depart-
ment's Bulletin :No. 90, B.C. The table shows the total returns per tree for an
eight-year period, of trees from five to twelve years of age inclusive. I may say
that tiffs investigation was taken to cover representative farms where figures were
available and as far as possible to give a fair average. Perhaps I had better
refer to table :No. 6. This shovs the total returns per tree for a four-year period
of trees from five to eight years of age. They vary from the :Northern Spy, at the
bottom of the list, with -51 to 7-49 boxes at the top of list for Ben Davis.
By the Chairman:
Q. These trees would hardly be in bearing? A. Hardly in bearing. I will
give the next one. This shows the total returns per tree for a ten-year period
of trees from five to fourteen years of age inclusive. That is for a ten-year
period. The highest is the McIntosh vith 41-1 boxes. That is for a ten-year
period. The Cox Orange yield for that ten-year period is 19-3 boxes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Can you give us the number of trees on the average farm?--A. The
average trees per acre run, I think, about 68.
Q. How many acres are there in the average farm?---A. I would think from
l0 to 15 acres is an average farm.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Surely not 68 trees to the acre? A. Sixty-eight trees to the acre. If you
take a farm 20 by 20, you would have 108, with fillers, but the average, I think,
is 68. I think the Government figures on 68 for taxation purposes.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. I-Iow close are they planted, what is the space? A. Sixty-eight trees to
the acre would give you--
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Take it at 30 feet apart?---A. That would give you 48 trees. Sixty-eight
is the average for 25 by 25, roughly.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. So far as the averages for a ten-year period are concerned, is that a
yearly average, or for the whole period? A. The total I gave you was for the
period of years, divide it by ten and you get the annual average. I would rather
not deal vith those figures. In our brief we will give you full particulars of the
yields and returns, and everything you want.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What ve are trying to get at is the estimate of what would be a fair
profit?---A. I would rather not deal vith that, because I have only those yields
to go on, and I do not want to make statements or give figures without having
all the facts with me. I am pleased to answer questions, but I do not want to
tie myself dovn to figures lust now. I will guarantee that you will ge them.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Did you say that the average for the ten-year period was an average of
41 boxes?---A. No, four boxes per tree yearly. That average of four boxes per
tree, as far as I remember, is about the same average as in Washington. That
is our highest yield. There are averages lower than that.
[Mr. Lionel E. Taylor]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 47
APPENDIX No. 3
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. Would you be satisfied to take 60 cents per box?--A. No, because it takes
more than 60 cents to produce.
Q. What would you call a fair price?
By the Chairman:
Q. Just give us your own idea?
WITNESS: I was just going tO give the exact figure. I think the figure on
these two surveys was 83 cents per box, for an unpacked box, to produce.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. What does it cost you to pack? A. That is, picked and delivered at the
packing house. Last year we contracted at 60 cents a box for packing and
marketing.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Do you furnish the boxes?---A. The box comes out at 60 cents.
By the Chairman:
Q. Doctor Tolmie asked whether 60 cents a box would pay you, and you
said no. Does that mean 60 cents for the number of apples that go into a box?--
A. No, 83 cents is the cost of producing.
Q. Would it cost you 83 cents to grow them? A. Yes.
Q. To bring them to the packing house? A. Yes.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Just there, there is a point on which I want to get information. For
instance, how do you figure the cost of production in the case, say, of a man
with a young orchard that has iust come into bearing two or three years?-- His
cost of production would be much higher than that of the man who has an old
orchard.---A. That is dealt with in the different tables of those surveys, and
when we file our brief, we will give you that in the greatest detail. We have
got figures on that, and we can also quote the figures from Washinon and
Oregon, and possibly some other points.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. It will cost you $1.43 to market?---A. That is about it.
Q. What does it cost for irrigation and spraying? A. I have all that in
detail. Irrigation is one of our large factors. We are paying in the average
about $14 an acre for irrigation water, and we are paying as high as $17 or $17.50
an acre for irrigation.
Q. Do you get all the water you want every year? Are you sure of getting
a sufficient quantity?--A. Well, reasonably. The system on which we are
working in those ilTigation districts, is that the cost has been estimated for all
the work necessary for thirty years; it is spread over a period of thirty years,
and I think we may be paying $16 this year for water. That will not represen
the actual money spent; there will be a big expenditure in three years' time.
By the Chairman:
Q. The cost of irrigation comes into the 83 cents? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. You mentioned 60 cents; how far does that take the fruit to the con-
sumer?--A. As far as the packing house.
[Mr. Lionel E. Taylor]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 49
APPENDIX No. 3
very hard against these pests; the spraying is a very serious matter in our
expenses. We have compulsory spraying out there, for various insect pests,
and we are doing everything we can to try and eradicate them and keep up our
high standard of quality. There are some matters in connection with spraying
that need very serious investigation by the Government. There are certain
sprays, such as the oil sprays, which can only be used to combat some of these
pests, and there is a great difference of opinion as to the application of these
oil sprays, and it is a matter which requires very careful investigation work on
the part of the Government.
Q. That is a spray which kills
that will do it, as far as we know.
matter. While that has not wiped
very large acreage of our pear trees,
by contacf?--A. Yes, oil is the only thing
Then the fire blight is also a very serious
out our pear industry, it has wiped out a
and has been serious on the apples, and we
induced the Government to put in a man at Summerland to investigate that last
year. He has done very good work, but is not employing his whole time on it,
and we think too much cannot be done to help us control that. Then we have
another very serious problem which has troubled us greatly this year. It is not
a new one, but we have had a bad falling down in our Jonathan apples. I might
say that we have not had it as bad as in other places, it has been perhaps worse
in Washington, and it has been bad in :New Zealand and Australia. It is a very
serious matter, and we would urge that every endcavour be made by the Govern-
ment to do everything possible to find out the cause of this trouble; it is a
physiological trouble, the breaking down of the apple after it has been picked
and packed. A brown rot sets in in the interior of the apple: you cannot see it
from the outside, it does not show at all when the apple is packed, but it shows
after it arrives at its destination, and it has been most serious this year.
Q. Was this not always true of this type of apple?-A. We have had it,
to my knowledge, for about twelve years, more or less, but it seems to have
got worse and worse in the last three years, and it is a most serious thing, because
about one-third of our production is Jonathan apples--no, hardly a third, about
30 per cent.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is that supposed to be a winter variety?--A. Yes, a keeping variety.
Q. It is not very safe for the consumer to buy a very large quantity of
them?---_a.. We think we know paly what the trouble is, in picking it too !ate,
but it is a matter which requires most careful investigation, and we would
urge that this matter be given particular attention by the Government during
the coming year. I believe some provision is being made at Summerland, but we
would urge that the very greatest possible amount of work be done on it during
this coming year.
By the Chairmmt:
Q. Mr. Taylor, what are the sorts of apples that you produce in large pro-
portions? A. One variety which we consider we produce better than any other
part of the x*-orld is the Macintosh, and Wealthies, both in large quantities, the
Jonathan in very large quantities, and then the later varieties like Spies and
Spitzenbergs and Wine Saps.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You have not mentioned your best apples yet, the Delicious?--A. Oh,
yes, the Delicious.
[Mr. Lionel E. Taylorl
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 53
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. That is, this; you intend to charge the home consumer on the basis of
fair cost of production--or the cost of production plus a fair profit?--A. Yes.
Q. You intend to take competitive prices for the balance rather than this
last proposition, do you not?--A. 1No, sir.
Q. What will you do with it?--A. We cannot name any price. We have
no monopoly in this business; it is absolutely impossible to create a monopoly
in a perishable article. It is impossible.
Q. You are going to dump into the Old Country, or somewhere else, over the
requirements of the home market?--A. We do not hope to dump anything.
The CHAmMA: They will have to take the market price.
Mr. SAL,S: They surely will.
The WITNESS: You take the fixation of prices this year. When we arranged
the opening price this spring, we had a meeting with shippers on the prairies,
and found out their idea of the value of fruit during the coming year, and we
know the conditions of the prairies were very bad, as far as their buying power
was concerned. We took all that into consideration, we knew, or we could
estimate what our crps would be, and we knew we would have to move a certain -
amount of stuff, and we decided we could take $1.40 for our early varieties of
apples. That was the cost of production. That was the cost we named on the
early varieties, a good deal of fruit was sold on this price.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is it not a fact that last year you dumped in New York 800 cars at a
ruino's price--hat is "You dumped " them?--A. No sir, we did not, sir. I beg
your pardon. Two years ago when we shipped 800 cars to New York---if I may
explain what happened. It transpired that the American market was extremely
good for fruit. There was a railway strike pending, and it was pure speculation,
but we thought we could get our fruit in there, and they could not get theirs in
from Washington, and the chances were in favour of our making a good price
on that fruit, but as things turned out, the strike did not come off, and we did
not get a good price on that fruit.. We did for some, but not all. There was
no question of " Dumping" we had to pay the freight and the duty, and it
amounted to a considerable sum, but we did not take a chance on " Dumping."
Q. You lost money?--A. We just happened to lose money, but that is our
misfortune.
By the Chairman:
Q. That is one of the vicissitudes of business?--A. Certainly.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You said you realized a better price for fruit exported than when you
sold in the home market. Does that mean that the price was greater for the
same quality of fruit?--A. Oh yes, certainly.
By the Chairman:
Q. We have Mr. Bulman to hear also. I have no desire to hurry"you
The WTESS: (interposing) I think I have finished, unless you want to ask
questions.
The CHR-: I think 'e had better ask Mr. Bulman, because we do not
want an afternoon's session this afternoon.
Mr. G..RDINER: There is one question I* would like to ask in regard to the
packing.
Q. I understand you expect to get the packing cost reduced. What class of
men or employees is usually employed in packing--Chinamen?---A. Would you
[Mr. Lionel E. Taylorl
54 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEOIqGE V, A. 1923
mind asking Mr. Buhnan that question, because he is a practical packer. I can
tell you, but I would prefer to have you ask him.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. About what rate did the production of fruit increase in British Columbia?
A. It is increasing considerably. It has not reached its maximum of production
by any means.
Q. How much greater is the production now than it was five years ago?---A.
Oh, it is--I can give you the figures of that showing the actual production, and
the estimated production for the next few years.
(Witness retired.)
THOMAS BULMAN called and sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. You come from British Columbia, do you not :Mr. Bulman?---A. I do.
Q. Do you represent anybody but yourself?---A. I don't think I do. Well,
I represent my associates in business, and their shipping houses.
Q. You are a fruit grower? A. Yes.
Q. And you live where?--A. I live in Kelowna.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. And also a shipper? A. Yes.
Q. An independent shipper? A. Yes.
the independent shipper.
I am one of those wicked men--
By the Chairman:
Q. I would ask you whether you prefer to follow the method we followed
with Mr. Taylor, namely, to have you make a statement and then question you.
---A. I think, if you will permit me, I will make a statement just as briefly as I
can, and answer any questions after that that you think advisable to ask me.
I do not object if any of the committee men, or any men wish to break in,
elucidating some point.
Q. Our time is getting a little short, I would suggest we allow Mr. Bulman
to make a statement, take notes of the questions we wish to ask, and question
him afterwards. I think we will proceed faster that way.
The WITNESS: I will nmke my statement very brief.
The CHAIRMAN: Do not hurry yourself :Mr. Bulman, there is plenty of time.
The WITNESS: So that those who do not know me will better understand
the standpoint from which I speak, I may tell you how I got into the fruit busi-
ness, briefly. I was not born on the farm, though I am a farmer to-day. I was
not brought up on a farm, but I served my apprenticeship in business, in Vinni-
peg, but I always had a desire to get on the land and when I thought I had
sufficient to live independently on the land I went to British Columbia. I took hold
of a farm of rather large dimensions for that district, and I found very shortly
after I got in, that it was very necessary to do more than produce to be successful
on the farm. So I spent about half of my time on the Farmers' Exchange Board.
That was one of our early co-operative organizations. We were very successful
in that, but in the history of things, and the general change of conditions, we
came to more or less grief, and were absorbed in the larger co-operative organi-
zation, the Okanagan United Growers. That was a movement of the people,
backed by the Provincial Government, financed largely by them. At that
[Mr Thomas Bulman]
56 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
same way with Great Britain, but it is an auction market; we cannot do anything
else than take chances on the auction; but they do not want the large sized
fruit. To Ontario--Toronto and Montreal, we can ship our large sized apples
and advertised apples and obtain the same price f.o.b, to us in the Okanagan
as Calgary and Edmonton would pay. We get considerable business down here;
I think possibly you have all seen our fruit on your fruit stands. qew York
and Boston also want the larger sized apples; they must be very high class
apples, but wc get from our New York market a considerably larger price
although they are sold on the auction basis, than we have asked our prairie
people to pay. We happened to strike it right; it is not always thus; sometimes
we have trouble.
Now in regard to this year's export conditions, it is hardly fair to us for
fir. Sales to intimate that we arc prepared to take what we can get and be
thankful, -hile we want them to pay the full price.
By the Chaff'man:
Q. Your contention is that you give thegn the biggest apples at the smallest
price?---A. We give them the biggest apples at the smallest price, as cheap as we
can possibly produce them. Over in the 01d Country this last year the falling
down of the Jonathan apple was a serious problem. Our trade arrangements
were made wit[ : .... oonsignce; they advanced us $1.75 a box; that was to pay us
for the packing a,,, freight to the seaboard. They take the apples and make
an adjustment after they sell them. We shipped them in good faith, but many
of the Jonathans fell down and the wholesaler purchasing his supply, when he
finds that condition in the shipment, that there is some falling down, naturally
condemns the whole shipment. Our apples looked right even then, and you had
to cut them to see this condition. That made the trade back up and they would
not purchase them at any price. :fIy firn had to pay back in a draft, one of
several which I remember particularly, $9.899, representing returns on, I do not
know how many cars of fruit, nine or ten, I think. That made it that we took
for export this year less than what we are trying to sell for in the prairie
markets. And if we do not take any more than that, the prairies will not be
troubled about our getting protection for our fruit in the United States, because
we will not be there any more.
We sympathize with the farmers, and they will have our support in trying
to change it. It is physically impossible for a farmer any more than a business
man to sell his stuff for less than it cost to produce it. We must get above that,
and how to do it is the question.
I went over a few items, and you can ask questions if you wish. To-day in
the Okanagan, one of the most serious things that confronts us is the distance
that many of our orchards are from shipping points. Years ago we had a branch
line of railway proposed and laid out. The right of way was purchased. It has
since been fenced off and the grade built. The ties are on the ground, the tele-
graph poles, and everything, and the Dominion Government has spent 85.250.000
on that grade, and they have waited longer to get it completed than it took to put
the C.P.R. through from ocean to ocean, and it is not operating yet. This has
caused from my district alone a $25 an acre loss to every one of us who have fuji
bearing orchards. There is something that can be done and be done quickly if
the Government in their wisdom will provide $1,200,000, which is all it takes,
according to the engineers' report, to complete that road and put it in operation.
I am informed by the engineers that it is not practicable to get this done, this
llT-mile stretch, this year, because the ties are at Lundy, which is at one end
of one of the branches, and they have to get there before they can get the ties
out to build the line down to Kelowna, which is the producing centre.
[Mr Thomas Bulman]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 57
APPENDIX No. 3
I hope to have an argument before the Railway Board, if I am permitted, and
to convince them that it is wisdom to pay the C.P.R. possibly six to eight
thousand in freight to start the building of that line to several points this summer,
and complete it in time for our market this year, and relieve our farmers of any
other loss which they will face if it is not built. It will result in a total loss of
from $400,000 to $500,000 in that district. It is unfair that farmers should have
to accept and take this serious loss for some conditions we cannot understand. It
has pretty nearly got us into a position where we feel like getting out of the
country. I, as president of the District Association of United Farmers, felt it
incumbent upon me to try to do something for them. I was asked to go and see
the conditions in the other parts of the valley. I visited different parts, and I
found one man, as fine a citizen of Canada as you can get, with all his furniture
packed up, and with a little band of cattle outside in the corral. I had got
benighted, I had an accident with my automobile, and as a result I had to stay
out in the open country all night, went in for breakfast in the morning is how
I happened to come across this man. I said "What is the matter?" and he said,
"I am sorry. I am packing up, but you are welcome to breakfast." He said,
"I am going to leave." And I said, "Where are you going?" and he said, "I do
not know where I will go, but I am going to get out of this country." We talked
for a while, and I found him sufficiently valuable to hire for work on my own
farm, and he is to-day working on my farm, and is willing to stay there at the
wages that I am giving him.
I know of another man by the name of Linton, in the Pa.xton Valley. He
worked all winter--I am telling you this so that you may help us to get some
redress along these lines quickly, and possibly save for Canada many settlers
who will otherwise be discouraged. This man came from :New Brunswick, and
had served his time on the rivers in Maine, and he moved to British Columbia,
and married a British Columbia girl, one of the finest girls you ever saw, and
he has seven children. Two of his children are boys, and the other five are girls.
The eldest two girls, 11 and 12 years old, cut all the wood for the family that
year, so his wife could do the chores, take care of the cattle, and look after the
fires, and in general run the household. The husband was thus enabled to get
out, and get into the woods and cut the timber and haul it to the mills, to Mr.
Smith's mill, which is located some 14 miles from nowhere. He had to cart it
14 miles to Armstrong.
This man was so enthusiastic that he was willing to get up at half-past four
in the morning, to go out and get into the woods, and commence his day's work.
I found that his clock was wrong, and that instead of getting up at half-past four,
he had been getting up at half-past three all winter, and he swamped all of the
logs he could out of the bush, and got them out, and worked at that work all
winter, and after he got through, I was visiting there, and he said, " I have earned
enough money this year to provide food for my family, but I cannot pay my
taxes and feed my family, and if I do not pay my taxes, I understand the law is
changed, that I will bare to pay one per cent per month until I do, and if I
do not pay it in a year, they will sell the farm," and I said, " I do not want to
see those children starved, do not starve those children, and if any of the Govern-
ment officials try to sell your farm, 5"ou let me know, and we will take it up as a
test case, and get reports from the Board of Commerce at Vancouver." There
is a condition. We see what is going on. You do not see these things, but I tell
you if we are going to succeed in Canada we must solve them, and I was tickled
to death when I heard of this Committee; it is the biggest thing that any of yo,
have on your shoulders, to try to solve these problems and this situation of
freight rates. Previous to the war they were about one-third less than they are
to-day. And now some of our rates that do not apply-
[Mr Thoraus Bulman]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 59
APPENDIX No. 3
will grow, because we will be able to pay a fair price which we cannot do to-day.
That is the key to our future prosperity, and unless the men vho are in Parlia-
ment are big enough to take hold of the question--
By Mr. Hanmell:
Q. You are a British Columbia resident, and we have heard much lately
about the Oriental invasion. Would you open the doors to the Orientals? A.
No. I can tcll you what we have donc.
The CHAmMAN: I may point out that ve have got a very big question to
solve, and I do not think we should enlarge it by having a discussion of the
Oriental question.
WITNESS: In a few sentences I could tell this gentleman--
The CHAmM: If yOU do not mind, I think we should keep within our
orbit, we have so much to cover.
WTESS: Alright. As regards our internal affairs, we are working with the
Oriental; he is coming in with us. I have a Japanese sitting on a board along-
side of me. We do not like it, and we have to control them. We do not propose
to have them in the Okanagan Valley. We do not want any more. Now, cold
storage is something that we vill have to have. I applaud the Minister of Agri-
culture for his efforts this session in helping to give some assistance in that
direction. With cold storage we can prolong the season of shipments. We think
there should be cold storage at the points of origination and destination. We
can take the Macintosh apples and prolong the season of shipment for three
months and get a high class market for them in Great Britain. Going across
the prairies is very difficult, I admit. We should be able to get a line from
Vancouver, through the Panama Canal, during the winter time. I think that
that is something that should be taken into consideration by this committee.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Would you not meet that situation by having cold storage in the different
cities? A. Yes; on the prairies, at all those points. I understand that the
C.P.R. get a subsidy for the steamers crossing the Pacific to the Orient, and they
do not provide cold storage for carrying our fruit.
Q. What do you mean by a subsidy?--A. I do not know; I only heard that
they get some sort of shipping subsidy.
Q. From vhom? A. From the Dominion Government. I do not know; I
guess it is for the mails. There is another matter. That is with regard to Aus-
tralia. We have touched upon that. We think we should have the embargo
lifted. We do not think .that they give us anything that we are not willing to
give to them; but we do ask that they put their duty at the same rate as our
duty, and give us the same privilege as we give them.
By the Chairman:
Q. Do you say that there is an embargo against our fruit going to Aus-
tralia? A. They say they will not accept fruit that comes from a district that
is known to have fire-blight. We are informed by our plantologists that fire-
blight will not be transmitted on fruit; nevertheless that is the position they take.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Is that absolutely settled? A. Our plantologists tell us that. Further
than that, many of our districts have got very little fire-blight.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. Under the interpretation of the Australian regulation, if there was fire-
blight say in Penticton only, would the embargo apply to the whole district?--A.
[Mr Thomas Bulman]
60 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
We understand that it would be impossible to get a shipment. It would stop
shipping. The growers are quite willing to have a system of inspection which
would give a bill of health to enable them to be shipped. We want the same
duty on fruit going to Australia as we would charge on Australian fruit coming
to ,anada. Japan is another market. Our relations with Japan, through thc
Mother Country are very cordial. They cannot grow any apples except the
soft apple. They have got a regulation there with regard to the moths. We
think it would be wise if some overtures were made to secure that market for
our fruit. As regards farming credits I have known many of my friends having
to pay to the loan companies as much as 9 and 10 per cent for money. There
should be some method whereby farmers could get long loans at low rates, on
satisfactory securities. There is no loaning more secure than farm loaning.
By the Chairman:
Q. What are your farmers paying for loans on mortgage? A. 9 and 10
per cent.
Q. Is that the prcvailing rate?--A. 9 per cent is the prevailing rate, and
some pay 10 per cent.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Do you not think that that is a matter for the provincial government-?
---A. Possibly.
The C.mMAN: That is one of the subjects we are considering, rural
credits.
The WTNESS: Anothcr matter is over-production. It is true that the large
cities get most of the gluts, and get the cheapest fruit. That is a matter which
our co-operative organizations feel they can correct.
By the Chairman:
Q. Were you impressed with Mr. Shapiro's plan?--A. Yes. I was very
much impressed with it except--I have not much Scotch in me
The CImMAN: There are some virtuous people who do not come from
Scotland.
The WTNSS: I do not believe in putting too hea- an overhead on any
business that has to sell on a small margin. There was too much hurrah made
about the large salaries that should be paid to managers, and I would not likc
to pay $15,000 or $20,000 for a manager. We have got to take conditions as
they are. During the war we made money for two or three years. I was paying
$188 a year as txes, and I sold 500 acres of my best" land. They taxed that
nearly $2,000; they raised my taxes about $1,000.
By the Chairman:
Q. I suppose that sale was when prices were on a higher scale?--A. I was
business man enough to try and sell the lands at the highest price. But I made a
contract to supply water at $3 an acre, and water costs me about $9 an acre
I have been doing that for the last 15 years, so that I have been losing $6 an
acre, and the provincial government tells me that I shall have to spend $8,000 or
$10,000 more. So I have not made anything out of the well. It has taken
quite a bit of my profits, but I am game to stay there and try to make the
thing a success. What we do want, and what we should have, is lower
commodity rates to the principal cities in the States. There they will take our
high class fruit at high prices, and we have got the fruit. But we cannot pay
the rates that are exacted to-day in getting it to that market.
[Mr Thbmas Bulmanl
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 61
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. With low commodity rates, you feel that you can successfully compete
with Washington, and Oregon? A. Yes. We have the red apple going along
earlier than the Jonathan. The dealers in New York find our Macintosh an
excellent keeper, and they will take it in greater quantities than they have in
the past.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You mentioned the commodity rates; can you tell us how much goes
over Canadian lines and United States lines?---A. New York is one of the
principal centres, and there is Chicago. I suppose there is two-thirds going
by the Soo line, but I am not prepared to say what the proportion is.
By Mr. ,Sales:
Q. You have not mentioned one thing; take the cost of clothing, boots and
shoes and things of that kind, which are pretty high. Can you continue in
business and still pay these prices?---A. I do not worry about the price of those
things; they could be doubled, if they would only give me conditions under which
I could make some profit.
Q. Would you advocate this as a general policy, then, you gentlemen in
British Columbia? Your policy is to fix your price on the cost of production
plus a fair profit. Will you advocate that as a general thing for the Dominion
of Canada, to apply to the wheat farmer, for instance, and the dairy farmer
and the beef farmer and the potato grower? A. It is the only policy under
which the farmer can work; he must get a profit on production, but I do not
say we have to get foolish in our costs and then expect a profit to follow. We
have to do what we have done in British Columbia. It has cost me a good many
thousand dollars to sink my business in British Columbia, as an independent
shipper, and go whole-heartedly into a co-operative concern, which bought the
plant at the cost of the bricks and mortar. I built up export connections and
other connections, and if an American had come in to buy it as a going concern
he would pay double that. The man who came in to finance the plant looked
over our statement of profits and said, "Your business is worth a quarter of a
million dollars." The people are taking it over and are paying only the value
of the bricks and mortar. I say we have to do things in that way, we have to
get our costs down, and you can only get them down by working collectively,
and by doing away with those people in between you and success. My firm
was in between the farmers and success, and as much as you dislike it you have
to accept the principle. Now, I say we have to get our cost of producing apples
down, get our cost of distributing down, and insist on getting a profit.
Q. Would you advocate that as a policy? That is my point. Would you
advocate that as a policy, the cost of production plus fair profit?---A. Yes.
Q. You would advocate that?---A. Yes.
Bg Mr. Gardiner:
Q. There is just one thing I would like to ask, lr. Bulman, and that is with
regard to farmers' loans. Have you taken into consideration any method, can
you suggest any method to this committee whereby bank loans could be secured
by these farmers?---A. The only solution. I think, is for the Government to
borrow on their low borrowing powers, and by satisfactory machinery loan it
out to the farmers with a minimum cost.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. It cannot be done through the present banking machinerv?---A. No.
[Mr Thomas Bulman]
64 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
I-IoIISE OF COhIMONS,
COIIh:ITTEE ROOM 268,
TUESD..Y, March 13, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to enquire into agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 3.30 p.m., Mr. McMaster, the Chairman, presiding.
Mr. GARDINER: Before we proceed with the business of this afternoon I
would like to bring up the question of rural credits, in order that we may deter--
mine our method of procedure. I understand that this Committee is going to
deal with that question, and I understand also that the Banking and Commerce
Committee is enquiring into the question of credits generally. Now, it seems to
me that it would be advisable for us to make some arrangement whereby our
Committee would not overlap the work of the Banking and Commerce Com-
mittee. I do not know, Mr. Chairman, whether you have had any discussion
with the Banking Committee, but I would suggest, as a possible means of getting
over any difficulties, that we in this Committee might enquire into the needs for
rural credits, and if we find that such needs prevail we might transfer to the
Banking Committee the best method of bringing rural credits into effect. I
merely make that suggestion in order to open up the question.
The CHAIRMAN: In answer to that I may say that I conferred with the
sub-committee of the Banking and Commerce Committee the other day, and I
took on myself, believing that I was expressing the view of this Committee, to
indicate our desire to examine into the question of rural credits; and the sub-
committee of the Banking and Commerce Committee decided that they would
leave to us the question of rural credits, and would not interfere with us in our
investigations. It was pointed out that there might be a possible overlapping,
but that overlalling would be cut down as much as possible, though the question
of rural credits, being essentially an agricultural problem, would be left to us.
I trust I exlressed the view of this Committee in the matter, in what I assumed.
Mr. CALD,VELL: And the question of rural credits does not naturally come
under the Banking Act.
The CHAIRMAN: NO; in my view there is a distinct 'difference between
ordinary industrial and commercial credit and rural credit.
Mr. GARDINER: Then do I understand it to be the desire of this Committee
that, having investigated this important question, we are to proceed to devise
ways and means whereby rural credits would be brought into effect?
The CHAIRhIAN: AS I remember it, our agenda on the question of rural
credits read as follows :--"The banking and financial resources and credits of the
country as affecting agricultural purchases, with an examination into the various
systems of rural credits in this and other countries." I do not know whether
that answers your question. -
Mr. GARDINER: If this Committee is going right through the question of rural
credits it will be quite satisfactory to me, in a way. The onlv reason I brought
the matter up was that I know as a fact that some of the mem[ers of the Banking
and Commerce Committee are exlecting to take this same question into con-
sideration on that Committee, and my desire was to avoid duplication. I think
that perhaps we should make a decision as to whether we are going into the
whole question of rural credits, and in case we find a need established for such
credits, that we should prepare a memorandum to be submitted to the House
showing how rural credits would come into effect. It would be quite saris-
facto .ry so long as we know exactly the scope of our investigations.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 69
APPENDIX No. 3
rive. There are men in England, especially in the South of England, who want
heavy cattle--home finished cattle, and who when they get our finished cattle,
put them a short time on the grass and then sell them to the home market,
as home cattle, and that appeals to the English trade more than Scotland, where
they cater to the tourist trade, where they want a heavier cut of beef, and if
they keep them five or six weeks, they call them " short-keep cattle," and then
turn them out, and then they become known as the home product.
Q. You would agree with the expert who testified before us the other
day, that it is well to ship cattle as stores, because there is an option, either
slain shortly after landing, or kept for a longer period to be finished to the point
of perfection that the English public demands? A. It is this: there is no ques-
tion but by keeping them you have the opportunity. There is certainly nothing
to be lost, because you can kill a store bullock as soon as he lands.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. I understood you to say at the start, Mr. Campbell, that with the excep-
tion of, I think, about forty head, you are able to supply the demand--.A.
About one hundred and twenty head.
Q. What was the reason you could not supply space for the hundred and
twenty head?--A. There always comes a time when it is all booked up, and
these are mere odds and ends that are offered late, after the space has been
booked up.
Q. It is due to the lack of steamer space?--A. Yes, but it is a very small
quantity when you consider the movement I was telling about. It was practically
only a hundred.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Campbell, is there anything to prevent say the growers of beef
cattle of western Ontario, who have got a big shipment, to make direct arrange-
ments or a contract directly with the steamship line--make his own arrange-
ments for shipping?--A. There is nothing to prevent a man who has a carload
of cattle or less from making his own arrangements, from his farm to his ulti-
mate market.
Q. He would not run the risk if he applied to some line, of having them
say " Mr. Monroe, Mr. Coughlin, or Mr. D. C. Campbell have got it all taken
up "?--A. If he were late, he would, but if space were plentiful, he would be
welcome.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. If the same shipper applied to you for the space, if you had it, he would
get it?--A. Absolutely. As I said, there are twenty cattle I have not been able
to get space for, and I do not think the man was very serious at that. I hap-
pen to know all thee customers after a time.
By tle Chairman:
Q. Mr. Campbell, do you say that out of those who applied to you for
space there was one man who could not get space for twenty?--A. That was all
for my shipment. I am talking about the freight, from the 1st of January to
date, those who applied for space going forward within that time.
Q. To what extent did you supply space during that period?--A. I would
not like to say off-hand. I have not got the figures. Possibly six thousand;
that is roughly speaking. I have not got my books before me just now. but I
would think it should be something in that neighbourhood.
[Mr. Duncan A. Cm,mbell.I
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 71
APPENDIX No. 3
freight to ship them, and therefr, re, when he c.omes for .space, he is liable to
find that the freight is taken. I will put it to you plainer this way. Mr.
Chairman, for instance, I had a cable enquiry last night just before I left,
asking for May, and an option of June space. :Now, I have not got a single
inquiry from a smaller shipper for freight.
Q. That is not quite clear to me, although it may be to the other members
of the Committee. Explain that a little more fully, Mr. Campbell.--A. In
freight you give a cable option or a wire option--.
Q. What does that mean, a "wire option "?---A. For instance, you are
living in Winnipeg. You want freight. You wire to me or send me, say for
instance, a nightlettergram--I receive it to-day.
Q. When you say "I want freight ", you mean "I want space "?--A. You
want space for twenty or a hundred or whatever cattle you may want, you
designate the freight, designate the quantity--you mention the quantity. It is
usual to take an option for that freight. We will say to-day, Tuesday fore-
noon. That man has the option on it until noon the following day. It is
customary that freight options are from noon until noon, unless you renew
them.
Q. Just explain how that works out. If I, as a Winnipeg shipper--.
--A. You wire for one hundred spaces. I receive that wire this morning, and
I go to the White Star Line, or the Reford Line, or some other steamship com-
pany, and I say "I have an enquiry for one hundred spaces for Liverpool for
Mr. McMaster," I wire you immediately " have secured you the option of one
hundred spaces on such-and-such-a-date at such-and-such-a-rate, please con-
firm." If you want it, you confirm it. I close you with the steamship com-
pany. If you neglect it, and come along two or three days later, it may or may
not be there.
Q. You may, in the meantime, have sold it to somebo-, else?--A. Once
you have the option on it--, when you are offered the freight, you are supposed
to have a twenty-four hour option on freight, which is, in fairness to you, giving
you time to get messages backward and forward in a reasonable time.
Q. But if I do not confirm to you, on my desire to occupy that space, you
will be free to let it to some other person?--A. What generally happens is that
another broker comes in and takes up the option. I would not be in a position
to renew it to you.
Mr. :ML: Is there any cost in connection with this option?--A. :No
cost.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You do not get a deposit down?---A. :No.
Q. What if a man fails to take the space on which he has an option?--A.
That is a serious matter.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. What redress would you have?--A. It has cost me money at times for
making a mistake in the men I booked the freight for.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You cannot get back after that party?--A. I could get back at him,
but life is too short to sue him, because if he does not fill the freight, the
chances are you would not get anything if you did sue him.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Would you stand the loss by freight not being taken up?--A. It does not
happen very often. I made a mistake in one shipment this year; he was to
ship fifty cattle, and it cost me a thousand dollars.
[Mr. Duncan A. Campbell.]
76 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Campbell, I suppose there was nothing to prevent any shipper in
Canada making the same arrangements with these lines, through you or
directly, which the Englishmen have done? A. None whatever. This gentle-
man {indicating Mr. Sales) has referred to the Grain Growers. I offered the
Grain Growers the first stocker space which was offered to anybody in Canada.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. On what basis? A. On February tenth. Here is the file, and here are
the original telegrams, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN: I would like to have the views of the Committee whether
I should read these letters. I might read the one of them.
The WITNESS: They are rather lengthy.
The CHAIRIAN: I might read one of them. Here is a letter written by
Mr. Campbell to Mr. C. Rice Jones, President of the United Grain Growers at
Winnipeg. It is dated February 15th, 1923, and reads as follows:--
[Mr.
"February 15, 1923.
C. RcE JoNEs, Esq., President,
United Grain Growers,
Winnipeg.
DEAR Sin, I received your wire yesterday as follows:
'Your wire to Collyer delayed we intend having shipment on
first boat advise total numbers Manchester Importer carrying and
spaces available and whether landing at Liverpool or Manchester
also advise same information on next steamer.'
and replied as follows:
'Not receiving reply my message Importer concluded you not
interested only about hundred open now STOP Having in mind that
Collyer stated Growers policy is to sell Winnipeg if possible booked
portion this steamer to Old Country buyers who are coming here to
buy and have given cable refusal balance, STOP Would you be
open sell these people if so what kind cattle and wht price Winnipeg.
STOP Imperative that cattle be domesticated preferably dehorned
first shipments choice feeders.'
Not having heard in reply to my message, I concluded that you were
not interested in Store cattle on the first steamers. I had made some
enquiries and the vrious people whom I came in contact with from the
West advised me that there were not a great many suitable Store cattle
as yet in Western Canada. I regret that I did not hear from you sooner.
However, the "IMPORTER" space is let to Englishmen who intend to
buy the cattle here, and if I understand the present policy of your Coln-
pany, as outlined by Mr. Collyer when he was in Ottawa, your people,
provided they get suitable prices, prefer to sell at home.
In my cablegram to these people I have offered them the first of the
Manchester boats, and also the first refusal on subsequent boats. One of
these people I have been doing considerable business with for some time
and our dealings have been very satisfactory. He is a keen buyer, but one
of the best judges of cttle in Great Britain and has a very large connec-
tion in Store Cattle. The other man was out here last fall and is a big
feeder and has won a great many prizes on Store cattle that he has fed,
so I think that these two parties will be useful to Canada. If they do
Duncan A. Campbell.]
80 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
The prices, the steamship prices for all the freight appear on the bill of lading,
and are collected in Great Britain. When I quote you $20, that is not collected
by me; it is collected by the steamship company in Great Britain. I have never
collected for freight more than I paid for it.
Q. Would it be possible for a man to speculate in that? I am not referring
to your firm, but to somebody who has orders for space, could they not resell
that space at an advance to somebody else?--A. There is nothing to prevent him
doing that so far as he is concerned. I cannot afford to do it as a broker,
because if I did I would only be in Montreal for one year, and I have been there
for twenty-five years. But to my notion, there is no reason why if you have one
hundred spaces at $20, and I want them, I have a right to give you a profit on
them, the same as on your horses and ,our cattle.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is there much of that goes on?---A. 1o, there is not much of that
goes on.
Q. Any to your knowledge?--A. No, there is very little of that.
Bg the Chairman:
Q. If there were would you know it?--A. Oh yes. There is really nothing
of that goes on; it would be too dangerous to do that. What generally very
often does happen, and what has happened, is a man has we will say, a hundred
cattle, and I come to buy this cattle, and I have to buy his cattle space. Some-
times he is able to sell his cattle perhaps, for a little more, if the space is
available. He might sell his cattle for say a quarter of a cent more than if he
did not have the space, and of course he has the right to do that if he wants
to. He can do what he wants to with it.
By the Chairman:
Q. I will ask you to enter into the realms of prophecy for a moment. A. I
am not the seventh son of a seventh son.
Q. No, but what is your prognostication of prices that will obtain for
carrying cattle to the Old Country this coming season of navigation?--A. The
manager of the White Star Line--may I answer your question indirectly?he
is a very up-to-date Englishman. I wa in his ofce yesterday and was expect-
ing some cable inquiries, which I received last night, for May and June space.
I said, " Do you want to sell all of your space if I have inquiries for them?"
and he said, "I am not prepared to give you the whole of the space," and I
said, "I am not prepared to ask for it." He said, "I have to consider every-
body else." I said, " I think you are quite right; I would not want the whole
of your space, because your idea was $22.50, and if you give me the whole of
it to-day, you would expect me to fill it for the rest of the summer, and I would
not be permitted to fill the freight at $22.50 for the season of 1923."
I said, " I will take what I can get from time to time, as time goes on, because
I do not feel I would like to be under any obligation to get any preference, and
you would expect me to do something special for you afterwards in return."
In other words, I am not " bullish " on freight. I think they will get $22.50
for May, and possibly for June. I would not like this to be put in any book-
By the Chairman:
Q. Everything you say is being taken down by means of stenography, and
transcribed by means of typewriting, and published, but be just, and fear not.
A. Oh, I may not be just, but I will try to fear not. I will be as just as I can.
What I feel is this: we have all the steamship companies carrying all the cattle
[Mr. Duncan A. Campbell.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 85
APPENDIX No. 3
March, and April when the English markets are eleven pence, which he received
this last winter, whereas our western man has not the same facilities for feeding,
and he is obliged to ship his cattle out in September, October, and November,
against the flood of home cattle, against the flood of Irish cattle, and he is
obliged to take a much lower price, he may have to sell them for less than ten
.pence, probably nine pence.
Q. And still the man in Norfolk will be looking for his feeders?--A. If I
weIe going to feed cattle, I would feed them in :Norfolk, not in Saskatchewan.
Q. Just explain that. One moment you are arguing for the cattle to be
finished, and now you are stating that you would advise our western farmers
that the proper place to feed them is in Norfolk?--A. No, as an individual, if I
were looking for a profit individually--I was only talking for myself--I would
rather buy Canadian cattle on the glut in the fall, on the British markets, and
feed them there, than I would to try and fatten them in Saskatchewan.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You are speaking as a dealer?---A. Yes, purely from the point of view
of a dealer. I was telling the Saskatchewan farmer that he had the unprofitable
end of the business, which is quite so.
Q. There is another factor there. You say the Ontario man has an advan-
tage. Do you not think it costs more to grow the cattle, up to three years old,
than in the West, where they run free all winter?---A. It may be so. I have
grown and fed cattle in Ontario, but never in the West.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. This idea of their running at large cannot be maintained.--A. Cattle do
no good when they run at large at 20 below zero.
The CHAmA: There are a few matters I would like to take up with the
committee when we get through with Mr. Campbell.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. There is lust one point, and that is, could Mr. Campbell give the
names and addresses of the agents of the steamship companies at Montral?--
A. The White Star Line, Major Curry; there is the Canadian Pacific Steamship
Lines--I cannot tell you as far as this line is concerned at the moment, they
have no boats. Their Glasgow boats by the old Allan Line are the only ones
suitable and they are now in the passenger trade, and their London boats only
carry 150 to 200 cattle, and London is not open. There is Mr. Nicholl of the
Furness Line.
By the Chairman:
Q. Then there is W. A. Coates, of the leford Line? A. Yes.
Q. The Furness Line? A. Mr. Nicol, James :Nicol.
Q. Then there is Mr. Teakle of the Government Merchant Marine?--A.
Yes, Mr. Cunningham is there, but Mr. Teakle is the man you want.
Q. Mr. W. A. Cunningham is the general freight agent?--A. Yes.
Q. Is there anybody else?--A. There is Mr. William Burke of the Canada
Steamship Lines.
Q. Yes.--A. I think that covers the lot at the moment. I have been trying
to get the McLean people to carry cattle, but so far I have not been successful.
You see, the trouble is that most steamship companies want you to guarantee
at least two voyages, and I would not care to do that, that is not my business,
and I cannot get anybody to back us up.
[Mr. Duncan A. Campbell.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 87
APPENDIX No. 3
Mr. CAMPBELL: I think Mr. Teakle would be the better man.
The CLERK: Gentlemen, at the request of Mr. Sales and some others, I
wired the Hon. John Bracken, Premier of Manitoba, and I will read by tele-
gram and his reply. {Telegrams read).
The CHAaAN: Should we call this young man?
Mr. IILE: Yes, I think he would be a valuable man, as far as the cost
of production in Manitoba is concerned. I do not know of anyone else who has
the information.
The CHAmMAN: I would make the suggestion that at our next meeting we
should carefully consider how to lay out the rest of our work. We do not want
any of it to be pushed into the background. I would suggest that before
answering this wire we go carefully into our programme.
Ir. SAES: The question I was going to take up was, just at what time are
we going to take up our whole agenda for the future?
The CHAIRIiAN: That is what I want to do; I think we had better do that
next week, before adjourning for the Easter holidays.
Mr. GARDINER: There is iust a question with regard to bringing this gentle-
man from Manitoba; did I understand that his production costs will be from the
viewpoint of the Experimental Farm?
Mr. MLNE: If I might explain it, he has picked out 25 farms in various
parts of the province and has established a set of books in each farm, and he
visits each farm once a month, to see that the books are kept in shape. He has
nothing to do with the farms at all, ]ust the farm conditions. He has, I believe,
a couple of pure dairy farms, and I imagine he has some pure grain farms, and
some mixed farms. I think his information will be very general.
The CHAIRMAN: His evidence may be very valuable.
Mr. GARDINER: That is just the point I wanted to get at, whether the
reports would be from the Experimental Farm.
The Committee adjourned until Wednesday, March 14, 1923, at 11 a.m.
IIousE OF COIIhlONS,
COMMIVrEE ROOM 0. 268,
WEDNESDAY, March 14, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 11 a.m., Mr. hlcMaster, the Chairman, presiding.
The CHAIRMAN: I have been in conference this morning with the Deputy
iinister of Justice in order that I might report to you his views upon the
queston of the advisability of having the grain trade investigated by a Royal
Commission or by this Committee. The Deputy Minister of Justice informed
me that, although the last Royal Commission had been stopped by injunction
proceedings taken before the Court of the first instance in Manitoba, an appeal
had been instituted from the decision rendered by the judge who first heard
t]:e ca.e, and by a unanimous decision of the Court of Appeal of the Province
f Manitoba, the judgement first rendered had been set aside and it had been
decided that the Dominion Government had certainly the right to appoint a
Commission for the purpose of investigating the grain trade. There was, how-
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 93
APPENDIX No. 3
SO as to secure that the figures would be as nearly representative as it was
humanly possible to get them. For three years previous to starting this investi-
gation in Dufferin County we had conducted farm surveys over 250 to 280
farms in that district. That is: we had got from 250 to 280 farms in that dis-
trict, for three years previous to this, an individual account from each farm, of
the farming business for the year; therefore we had a rather close, intimate
knowldege of the business of each farm, and we were herefore able to select
farms that were typical of the business, that had no abnornmlitics; in fact,
as far as we could tell we selected farms that we-e able to keep the necessary
original records for this purpose. So these farms were very carefully selected
for that purpose, and they represent, as nearly as is humanl'y possible to get it,
the average conditions for the year (luring that time. low, I have here in con-
siderable detail the individual costs of those various items, that would be burden-
some and pretty wearisome to read.
The CHAIRMAN: May I make a suggestion? Professor Leitch has given us
his general statement. Let us ask him questions on that general statement
before he proceeds to give more intimate details.
The Ww-Ess: I produce here an intim:te statement of the various costs of
different classes of feed used, and the different items of labour, and so on, on each
of those farms; but it is impossible to give anybody an intelligent grasp of that
by reading it here.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Would it be possible to have a copy of that furnished? A. That would
be a proper procedure.
By Mr. Gardfner:
Q. Have you any bulletins covering that?--A.. We have a bulletin covering
the first statement I made, which is in the printer's hands at the present time.
I have only this one office copy and the copy that is in the printer's hands, that
are really correct.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. As I understand Prof. Leitch's statement, it is that during the abnorm, al
conditions beef cattle production has not been made profitable, but it can be
made profitable?--A. There is no doubt about that. There is full justification
for this beef cycle in the cattle business of Ontario.
Q. At present prices?-A. Yes, as soon as all the deflation is squeezed out.
What I mean by deflation is the lowering values of t.he normal working herd--
the cows and young females and bulls that a man must keep to provide the
sale cattle. Now. while this deflation is going on, naturally the farmer is
losing year after year--capital value.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. But, deducting this deflation, you still have a loss of $300? A. Yes; that
$300 is due to the fact that there was no spread; there cannot be any spread.
That would account for the balance.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I think you said 22 cents an hour for labour, allowing no interest on
the investment? A. Yes; if there were no deflation it would give the farmer
all his cash expenses and the amount for the use of his buildings, which is, after
all, a deferred payment.
[lr. Archibald Leitch.]
94 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Milne:
Q. But how about the reversal of that? I-Iave you the amount he would
have for his labour supposing interest were paid on his investment--which is,
after all, the first item that should be charged against revenue before he is paid
for his labour, if you want to find out what he has after he has paid all the
cost? A. So far, we have always preferred that the man must live, and must
live out of his labour. That is how the farmer lives.
Q. Bnt that is not the usual way of attacking the proposition? A. Yes.
everything that is left over after everything else is met is interest on your in-
vestment.
Q. Bnt a man will not carry on a business that won't pay interest on the
investment; his interest on investment must be paid? A. He must get his living
first, then if anything is left--
Q. But it is a business method of figuring intcrcst on investment and capi-
tal expenditure first, and then if it will not provide enough to make a living he
must cease that occupation; your statement, while it is very clear, does not give
us the information we want in that respect? A. How would you suggest that I
amend this? Do you wish to take the interest cost out first, and see what is
left for labour?
hIr. hIIL:NE: That is absolutely what we wants--the only thing that is any
good.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. Supposing that man had a mortgage of hali he value of his farm; that
would have to bc deducted first? A. Yes, because hc would have to pay that.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. But that is aside from the question--whether it is a mortgage on the
farm, or whether he has it clear, he must figure interest on the investment first?
--A. He must figure on the im'estment, whether it is his or whether it belongs
to somebody else.
By The Chairman:
Q. Prof. Leitch, I have read some of your bulletins with great interest, and
there was something I wanted to get light on; in one of the bulletins--I think
it was yours--you charged up 5 per cent against the capital investment, then
you charged labour, hired labour, and then you established what you called
" labour income "; I noticed that you never gave the farm credit for the housing
that it affords to the farmer and his family? A. No, because the data on which
those bulletins were based was this general survey method, and covering a large
number of farms with the methods used rendered t impossible to get those items.
Q. But in estimating the rewards for farming in this country should not
an investigator take into account the fact that the farmer gets more or less ade-.
quate--sometimes very good--accomodation for himself and his family?---A.
Yes, that is quite true. That was the weakness in that survey method. That is
the reason why, after proceeding with that for two or three years, we changed,
and adopted this system of farm accounting, which enabled us to get those
things.
Q. So you say that my criticism of that was well founded?---A. Entirely so,
because that was a weakness of that particular scheme of investigation, that i
did not get on each farm those items of the value of the farmer's house, and
what the farm supplied directly to him.
Q. As a matter of fact, even in those days of deflation the farmers did not
actually run into debt to anything like the amount of loss indicated on strict
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 95
APPENDIX No. 3
accountancy methods?---A. Oh, no, not at all. If the Committee like--probably
we should have started with this--I have the net farm income
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Will you be able to give us that statement I asked for, that is, what the
farm would have left over after the farmer pays interest on his investment? A.
Oh yes, particularly with this beef cattle enterprise, to see what was left to pay
for his labour.
By The Chairman:
Q. It seems to me that if you are going to charge against the farm opera-
tions a percentage on the full investment you must give credit for what the
farmer vould have had to pay if he had lived in a rented house of something like
the same value?--A. That is done in this cost accounting work. I can give you
the result of those seventeen farms, as to the whole gross business of the farms.
So far I have only given you the beef cattle enterprise, during that same year.
Here is a financial statement of the farms in a simple method. The value of the
house supplied by the farm to the farmer was $267 per farm yearly; that was the
cost of the house, including depreciation and repairs.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How do you separate that?--A. The depreciation is counted at so much
a year for a number of years according to the condition of the house.
Bg Mr. Milne:
Q. What percentage of depreciation? A. It varied according to the house.
Some houses had probably ten years of future life, that the farmer would rebuild
if he could very soon.
Q. All you could do in that respect would be to take an average? A. :No, we
did not take an average; -e took each individual depreciation on each farm.
Q. According to the character of the buildings--wooden buildings or brick
buildings?--A. Yes, and the condition they were in.
By The C]airman:
Q. Do you take the average according to the rental value?--A. :No, the
actual value of that house, allowing for interest, depreciation, etc., we credit the
farm with that and charge the farmer's personal account.
Q. Should you not credit to the farm, as an operating proposition, the
shelter which it affords the farmer and his family in the way of a farm house?--
A. That is done in this: that is what we have done.
Q. Explain that?---A. $267 is an average for those seventeen farms.
Q. That is only, as I understand it, for the depreciation and the repairs?--
A. :No, all the costs of the house, including 5 per cent interest on the money in-
vested; depreciation, repairs, and all the costs that you will normally find in a
house. The reason why we did not charge a fixed rental value is that it is hu-
manly impossible to determine the value of farm houses. It is not a marketable
commodity that is fixed by the law of supply and demand, so the only thing to
do was to take the actual cost. On those farms, also, the farm supplies that went
direct from the farm to the farmer's table and his house, and the services of hi
horses for personal business, was $796.
Q. When you say personal business, what do you mean? Not connected
'ith the farm?---A. :Not connected with the farm; purely personal; the use of a
horse, for instance, for going o church, or going out on personal, private
business.
[-Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 91
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That is for labour?--A Yes, their labour for the year.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Would you call that their labour income?--A. No, they did not make
that much. Now, these farms also earned for the operator, as interest on
capital, $898. To arrive at the earned interest, the farm was credited with
these two items, for house and services, $267 for the house, and $796 for the
farm supplies. That was part of the revenue that helped to make up that
amount of 3898. This $898 earned on capital was not all in the form of cash.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Does that include his board and lodging? A. No, his board and lodging
was treated separately; we charged the farm with the labour, at $927 a year
for the operator on the average, and we made him pay out of that all his
personal living. We credited him with $927 and charged him $267 for his
house and $796 for farm supplies and services.
By Mr. McKay :
Q. Were the farmers bachelors?---A. No, all married men, with one excep-
tion. Those are the only two items of revenue those men had from their
farms. The business of the farm was charged with $927 for the operator's
labour, and the farms returned $898 interest on the investment. Those are the
two items of revenue a man had.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Before we leave that point, does what you credit for the man's labour
include the work of his wife in cooking for the farm help? A. If she did any
farm work outside of the house, if she helped milk, for instance, a record was
kept of that.
Q. Nothing credited for her cooking for the farm help? A. No.
l-Ion. Mr. SNCLAm: That would be included in the wages of the hired
help.
By Mr. CaldweIl:
Q. The making of the butter, and so on?--A. Yes, if she did any pro-
duetive farm work, any help she might have given in production, that was
charged against the farm, in addition. Then, in the labour account, the hired
help and so on, the farm was charged with the market value, as near as we
could arrive at it, of the board of these men that they boarded, and in that way
indirectly the housewife got a return. Now, these two items only amount to
$927 and $898, that is just about $1,800, but the farmer spent $2,285.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Will you tell me, Professor--.
The CHAmMAN. Let Professor Leach finish, he is just working out to a
conclusion.
The WITESS: Since he did not get enough annual revenue from his farm
to meet his personal expenses, he is forced to withdraw from his cash an
average of $460 a year.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. The total receipts of these farms is made up of $927 and $898; does that
include the beef that was produced on those farms?---A. No, that is not the
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
98 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
total receipts of the farms, that is what the farmer got out of operating his
farm for the year. The total receipts were much more than that, but there are
the expenses to come out. The return to the farmer for operating that farm
--just like a business man--he got these two items, $927 and $898.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Leaving a loss of $4607--A. Yes.
Q. How long could he continue that?--A. He could not continue doing
that very long, but fortunately the year 1920 was exceptional, those conditions
do not keep on recurring every year.
By the Chairman:
Q. In other words, Professor Leach, your inquiry is dealing with an
abnormal period of time?---A. Yes, for this particular year. Of course, these
investigations have been going on all the time since. Now, there was the
result for that year ending in May 1921, that the farmer spent more than he
took in. He spent more on personal expenditure than the farm returned to him
as a individual for operating that farm; he spent $460.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. The farmers have been accused on numerous occasions of being rather
extravagant. Do you think that out of that $1,222 of personal expenses they
could have cut that down at all?--A. Yes, because our investigation of these
farms for the ne year, while they are not all completed as yet, show that they
made a respectable reduction from that.
Q. Tell us what there is that we could cut out?A. I did not bring all
that with me.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Just a question. Is it not a fact that the prices of commodities that the
farmer purchases have becn reduced, which would account moe for the
reduction in his living cost than actual economy?--A. I did not just get that.
Q. Would you consider that this reduction was due to the reduction in price
of the commodities he had to buy, or was it due to the fact that he did not
buy the things he bought the ear befoe?--A. :For both reasons; I do not
know which would have the greater weight.
Q. Just another question. Why did he cease buying the things, was it
because he was not able to buy what he needed?--A. That would be one reason,
and for another, his cash expenses would go down, and there was a general
lowering of prices.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. $2,285, that was his total expenditure including rent, including food
grown on the farm, and what he spent in cash?--A. Yes.
Q. What was the size of the family on these 17 farms?--A. It was the
average size family for Ontario, five.
Q. That is, on these 17 farms?--A. Yes.
Q. That is, if a man keeps a family of five on $2.285 you would say that
is equal to a man in the city getting a salary of $2,2857--A. No, it is *worth
more, because he got those farm supplies and services at farm cost, which man
in the city could not do, and a house of equal kind in the city would cost more
money, on the rental basis.
[Mr. Archibald Leiteh.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 103
APPENDIX No. 3
By the Chairman:
Q. You would agree with the old Cockney saying, " He that buys the farm
would thrive, must hold the plow himself and drive." A. Yes, that is quite true.
The CAmIAN: Gentlemen, we have Professor Barton, and I do not think
the Committee will be sitting again to-day, so I think it would be better if we
went on with Professor Barton, unless he would like to stay over and be heard
again, although we have some men summed for to-morrow.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I would like to ask one more question. In your recommendation you
said that we might devote some attention to marketing, and do our marketing
at the best time. What have you in mind there, Professor, by "marketing at the
best time;" for instance, what do you expect to tell the farmer, to inform him
when he should market?--A. There has been put into operation a practice by
governments and other agencies, of sending certain information of general inter-
est, either through circular letters or through the agricultural press, regarding the
time, the grade and the quality of commodities that are best for the market.
Whatever criticism I have to nmke now is rather of the farmer than of the
agencies trying to help him. It has been a rather slow process, naturally, for
farmers to begin to realize that production has not ended when they have their
produce at the gate-post, that production only ends, and his responsibility ends,
when the consumer finally buys it, and farmers must realize that.
Q. They must carry their produce closer to the consumer than in the past?
--A. Yes. They need not necessarily carry it themselves, but they must under-
stand all the steps and the proper time to market and the proper quality, right
from the consumer back to their own farm. It may not be possible for them to
go as far as the consumer themselves.
Q. Is it not a fact that the farmer is engaged in the production of beef rather
blindly? That is, we do not know whether our abattoirs are stocked with bacon
or beef, and we just raise so many animals because we have always been doing
so and we have no information as to what the supply and demand will be?--
A. Possibly.
By Ir. Hammell:
Q. Is it not a matter of fact that the farmers themselves do not avail them-
selves of the information available?--A. That is natural.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. Getting back to that question of the experimental farms for one moment,
these experimental farms and colleges carry on a certain system of cultivation
and so on xvhich they advocate to the farmers, or advise the farmers of the
country to use. Presuming a farmer is so situated that he can adopt these
methods, is there any reason why he should not put them in as cheaply and
efficiently as they are done on the experimental farms?--A. He would probably
do it a little more cheaply.
Q. I wanted to get that point clear, as to the efficiency of these farms, and
so on, which I think are rendering a very valuable service to this country.---A.
Absolutely, undoubtedly.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. You say these people cannot produce lust as cheaply and efficiently as
you can on the farm?--A. I had charge of the college farm at Guelph for quite
a few years, after having had experience in managing large commercial farms,
and I happen to know that it cannot be done by institution farms.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 109
APPENDIX No. 3
THE CHAIRMAN: NOW, gentlemen, as we are going to sit again this afternoon
at 3.30 we might adjourn now. It is almost 1 o'clock, and we can re-assemble
at 3.30, and if Prof. Barton and Prof. Leitch will both be good enough to come
back, we will endeavour to finish with them, so that they can get away this
evening. We will be glad if Prof. Muir will come back too.
The Committee adjourned until 3.30 o'clock in the afternoon.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural conditions
rumed at 3.30 p.m., Sir. 5IcSIaster, the Chairman, presiding.
The CttAIRLIAN: We will continue with Professor Barton.
Prof. H. BARTON recalled, and further examined.
The CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, before we discuss the question of milk produc-
tion, are there any other questions in regard to beef production?
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I would like to know if there is any profit in the feeding of steers for the
average man on the eastern farm, what profit he can make?--A. I cannot give
you actual figures, but I think there is a profit for the man who is in the right
situation.
By the Chairman:
Q. What would you say was the right situation?--A. Well, a man who has
his farm enterprise so organized and stocked that he has a surplus feed for which
he wants a market on the farm. That is the big advantage in it, I think
roughage feeds that are hard to market, corn silage, for instance, and the dry
roughages, which may be hay--
By i[r. HammeII:
Q. Or roots?--A. Roots. A man may have a surplus of that feed. There is
a market for hay possibly, but it is questionable whether the commercial market
is the best market for him from the standpoint of his farming activity. He has
the opportunity to buy some steers, feed them up, and utilize that roughage, and
if he does not do anything more than give cash value, if he can make over and
above a reasonable market value for that, which I put at $10 a steer, so much the
better. But there is an element of speculation in the business; Doctor Tolmie
called it a amble, I think; perhaps it is--
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: I may explain that remark. We had a discussion on
race-track gambling last week in the House and there has been so much talk of
one kind of gambling and another that I just wanted to know if this was more
of it.
Q. It is not so far removed from that perhaps in some cases.
By [r. Sales:
Q. I wish, Prof. Barton, that when you get back you would have figures
prepared, giving your experience, for how. many years?--A. We have been feeding
steers there for fifteen years, and I can give you the figures for a number.
Q. :Do not take the years in which the prices were above normal; that does
not prove anything?--A. That is quite true.
Q. Do not confine yourself to low estimates; we want to get the truth in this
matter whatever it may be, and if you would furnish us with those figures later
on, I would be much obliged.--A. I have not the data here.
The CH.IRIAN: Are there any other questions with regard to beef produc-
tion?
[Mr. ]Korace Barton.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 111
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What value do you put on your land to get this at a cost of $60.00 for
a 2 year old? A. The land factor does not come in there because the feeds are
charged up separately, but I would say $100 an acre.
Q. You must have pasture? A. We do not pasture it.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. It is based on stable feeding entirely?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. :Not pasture? A. Some pasture, but not much.
Q. If a man depended a lot on his pasture, that would reduce the cost very
materially? A. Yes, if he had cheap enough land.
Q. Even with land at $100 per acre?
Mr. CALDWELL: He could not do it at all.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. You will admit that that land which is worth $100 per acre will pasture
a great many more cattle than cheaper land which may be worth say, $30.00
an acre. Do you not think that the difference due to the carrying capacity of that
land, the dear land, as compared with the cheap land, would give you a cheaper
production?--A. :No, I do not think so; I do not think there would be enough
difference in the carrying capacity.
By Mr. CaIdwell:
Q. Is not the price of land based not so much on its productive quality
as on its location to the nearest market?---A. Undoubtedly.
Q. Land at $100 per acre near Montreal might not produce as much as
land at $30 per acre in Alberta?-A. Quite so.
Q. The price of land is not based on its productive quality so much as on
its geographical situation?-A. Exactly.
Mr. ELLIO2T: Following that argument out. Mr. Caldwell, the price of land
in the vicinity of Toronto or Montreal would be so high that farming in any
of its phases would be absolutely unprofitable.
Mr. CALDVELL: If yOU are going to figure interest on your investment.
Mr. RoBinSOn: When land is as expensive as that, it is not suitable for
farming purposes, but for building purposes.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Is it .Tour opinion that 'hen you have land at $100 per acre you can
produce profitably by feeding or pasturing?--A. Yes, you can establish a more
intensive practice with the higher priced land, but I do not think that land at that
value is at all adapted for growing steers.
By lIr. Caldwell:
Q. In that case, your labour costs are possibly trebled? A. Yes.
Q. And stable feeding? A. Yes.
Q. So that it works out about the same thing?---A. Well, no, there is a
bigger difference, I think.
The CH.mn: Have we finished with the question of beef production.
I think, Professor Barton, you know a good deal about milk productio m do
you not?
The WTESS: I have a good deal to do with dairy cattle.
[Mr. Horace Barton.]
114 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. I had the pure bred scrub in my mind as well.--A. Yes. I think that
is one of the fundamental difficulties of progress in cattle improvement.
Q. Could you tell me anything else which would improve the breed of our
cattle, both beef and dairying, in so short a time?---A. :No, I am quite sure there
is nothing else that has as far reaching results.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Because the bull is quite one-half of the herd, when it comes to the
question of breeding?--A. Yes, lie makes up the whole herd if lie is a bad one.
That is the difficulty. That doctrine, of course, has been preached, and I believe
it is appreciated to a larger extent that we sometimes believe.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Do you think it would cause any very great inconveniences if this Par-
liament were to pass legislation governing the bulls? That is, there would not
be any great difficulty in securing the supply of good bulls?--A. :Not the
unregistered bulls; there would be, with the scrub registered bulls. I mean to
say, the pure-bred bulls. He is a double menace, if he is a poor proposition,
because you have got misplaced faith in him.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. He is sort of getting money under false pretences?A. That is exactly
what he is doing, and is very likely to do his greatest harm where it will have
the biggest effect.
Q. On the best bred cows?--A. Exactly. The other bull is working more
on his own level, and when you get a pure bred bull into places above his level--
Q. You mean up into the aristocracy?--A. That is exactly what it is. Thc
pure blood bred is aristocratic. Anything that has necessary credentials or
qualifications is eligible, regardless of merit.
By Mr. Sales: "
Q. You think the chief difficulty would not be with the man who is using
the scrub, but would be to persuade the breeder of pure bred cattle, that his
cattle are not as good as he thinks they are.--A. That is where the rub would
come.
An Hon. MEEI: Could you suggest a remedy for that?
h[r. SALES: Nothing but compulsion.
The WIwEss: It is a big problem.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. If the Government did that, they would have to institute tests for butte'_"
fat, because if that were not done, how would you know which was a good
producing strain? If the Government passed a law that only bulls from mothers
and sires with a record performance behind them could be used--.--A. We arc
working towards that end at the present time, but there is a great deal of creden-
tial information being accumulated.
Q. This matter of prohibiting pure registered sires from being used, could
not be done until the other was established first?--A. :No, sir, you have to get
your basis of selection.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Would a good producing strain continue to be a good producing strain
if properly bred?--A. It is likely to; there will be variations within it.
[Mr. Horace Barton.]
120 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By thc Chairman:
Q. What are your largest producers? What have your largest producers do,e
at Ste. Anne?--A. We have one cow furnishing a record now of 16,000.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. She has not been fed in the ordinary way a farmer would feed her?--
A. No, sir, but she has produced milk economically under our system.
By 1lit. Caldwell:
Q. She has been scientifically fed?--A. She has been economically fed.
Q. Which means scientifically fed?---A. Possibly.
By the Chairman:
Q. Have you considered, Professor Barton, the advisability of farmers
sending in their milk to large cities, and have you considered whether or no the
farmer is getting a fair share of the price which the consumer is paying for his
milk; have you looked into that at all?--A. Yes, I have had something to do
with it.
Q. Would you give us the benefit of your views?---A. The farmer does not
seem to be getting even the bigger half of the consumer's cost. The question
of milk distribution is a big one, it is a highly organized business, and our dis-
tributors, of course, claim that they cannot operate on anything less than they
are getting, which in Montreal is more than they are paying the farmer.
Q. What are they paying the farmer in Montreal, do you remember?--A.
They are getting 20 cents net.
Q. That is 5 cents a quart. What are the consumers in Montreal paying?
_A_. About 12 cents.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That means 5 cents, delivered by the farmer to the city of Montreal?--
A. It is 20 cents net to the farmer.
Q. How far do they bring that milk?--A. That is one of the weaknesses
of the situation, they bring it too far, they are all trying to get into dairying,
they are shipping milk to Montreal from a radius of possibly 150 miles or nearly
that.
Q. The farmer gets 5 cents per quart; what does it cost him to produce it?
---A. I cannot give the actual farm figures, I think possibly Mr. Leitch can
give you that information. I have my own ideas, though.
By the Chairman:
Q. How do you size it up, what do you think it costs him?---A. I think it
costs him lust.about what he is getting.
Q. Without the labour?--A. If he includes all the factors.
Q. If he takes it to the nearest cheese factory what does he get for it?--A.
That is a summer proposition, of course.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. 0nly?--A. Only.
Q. I want to ask a question here. In the Maritime Provinces we have very
poor facilities for this work. We have no creameries, even. What is the pros-
pect of a man dairying under these conditions?---A. What you have to do in that
situation, as I see it, is to feature mixed farming, keep away from being a dairy
specialist, diversify your system.
Q. You must keeps hogs in that case?--A. Absolutely. The return you are
going to get from dairying is going to depend on liw you capitalize your skim
[hIr. Horace Barton.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 123
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is your province pretty wc]l supplied with creameries and cheese fac-
tories ?--A. Yes.
Q. There is no great distance to haul it? A. _No, they are hauling it further
and further as time goes on, because of the organization of the cream trade.
Q. They are hauling it to cities instead of to the local factories.?---A. Yes,
the difficulty with a number of factories and creameries is the inroads of the
fresh milk man.
Q. They are finding a more profitable business, or they would not take it
up?---A. That is the trouble. It makes the mall factories still smaller, and is
an added problem.
Q. If they are sending milk to Montreal a distance of 150 miles say, and are
getting five cents a quart, and it is costing them five cents to produce, it would
be a losing game if they shipped it to the cheese factory or to the local creamery.
They would get. less for it there?---A. They are sending it to the city factory
under summer conditions, and the cheese factory, man is operating at a lower
cost. It is not costing him that much. I am speaking of the man who is ship-
ping milk in the winter at the winter price.
Q. You mentioned the winter price. Is five cents a quart thc winter price?
A. Yes.
Q. The sumcr price would be lower than that?---A. Probably. It is not set
for the summer yet, so far as I know.
Q. But it is lowcr?--A. Yc., usually it is. It pays a man ready cash. The
trouble is there arc too many in it. Take Montreal--I do not know how many
counties, but probably there are a dozen different counties shipping to Montreal,
more thau that, probably 20 counties, and there arc a number in Ontario as
well as in Quebec. The.e counties are doing a number of other things in
dairying, and iust as soon as the price in Montreal becomes attractive, and
those men get through hauling wood and want something for the winter, the
thing that appeals to them is selling milk and cream, and they switch around
to the milk business. I couhl take two counties that would supply Montreal
with all it..*_ rcquiremcnts.
Q. Are you pointing to the danger of over-production? A. I am pointing
to the condition in the milk trade.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. That same danger does not exist in the cream business. You mentioned
that the whole milk trade 1)rought ready cash. Do you not think that shipping
their cream brings as much ready cash?---A. No, it does no.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. It represents more by-products on the farm?--A. Yes, but you have to
realize that the by-products on the cream do not pay as well as the milk.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What are you going to do when you have all those good cows, all
those high producing cows, in the hands of every farmer in Quebec?--A. I would
have cheaper milk.
The CHAIRMAN: Our people might drink more milk if it was cheaper
and better.
Mr. SALES: And buy more cheese
The CHAIRMAI: I do not wish to have the witness come back another
day, and I know that Professor Leitcb has some figures to give us.
lair. Horace Barton.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 125
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. This farm gave to the owner of it $927 by wuy of wages, nat
necessarily all paid in cash; it might be paid in kind, or in cash. But that is
what the farm produced?--A. Yes.
Q. On the other side was the farmer's expenditure, and it was found that
the farmer had e.xpended $400 more than his farm had brought him in, either
i kind or in cash? A. Yes.
Q. The farmer therefore, went into capital to that extent?---A. Yes.
Q. That does not affect the figures as to what was the real production either
in kind or in cash from the farm; it merely shows the relation which the earning
power of the farm stood to the spending of the owner? A. Exactly.
Mr. SALES: That does not satisfy me, Mr. Chairman. Can we not get
the actual returns, what that man sold off the farm?
The CHAIR_IAN: YOU will forgive me if I interrupt for lust a moment, but
with all due deference, I think you are proceeding along the wrong line, be-
cause what the professor was telling us was---he was not dealing with what the
frm produced by way of cash, he was establishing the difference between what
the farmer spent and what the farmer made, either in cash or in kind, off the
farm which he owned.
WITNESS: Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I have it noted here, $267 for the house and $769 for supplies and
services?---A. Yes.
Q. In addition, I want to know how much he sold?---A. I do not know
that I have the absolute gross revenues of those farms here.
Q. You fix the labour at 26 cents an hour. You can fix it at anything you
like and show a loss, but I want to know what was sold off the farm.
Mr. tOBINSON: I do not see how that affects the wages at all. A man
might get 56 cents an hour in a factory, and spend 60 cents.
Mr. CALDWELL: But this money is paid out of the operations of the farm.
The CHAIRMAN: That is where you gentlemen are wrong, I think. I-Ie is
establishing the difference between the expenditure of the owner of the farm and
what his farm brought him, either in cash or in kind.
hit. CALDVELL: I still contend, Mr. Chairman, that I am right if it was
meant for clothes for his family, he must be clothed in order to carry on his
work. Could we get at it this way.
Q. What was his expenditures for?--A. These expenditures that were made
up of $12227
Q. Yes.---A. Clothes, purchasing clothes, purchasing meat, anything he
purchased for personal consumption. It has not a thing to do with the farm
expenses.
Q. Is this the case, Professor, that there was actually consumed on his farm
and grown on the farm $796?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. There must have been sold off the farm $927 to pay for the labour?
--A. Well, yes. The average gross revenue on these farms, if my memory
serves me right, was somewhere around $3,000.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Then there must have been $898 sold to pay interest on cattle. That
brings it to $2,621. That amount was grown on the farm, some of it consumed,
and some of it sold, if your figures are right? A. Yes, there was more than
that grown on the farm, because they took in on cash sales alone, and for their
beef herd, over $1,600 a year.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 127
APPENDIX No. 3
as everybody else. This over-expansion of railways has been particularly severe
on the farmer, or on the producer, whose product is of low intrinsic value. The
over-expansion of railways for which farmers are equally responsible with all
other citizens of this country, and must bear their share along with other citizens,
has also helped to increase the tempdrary over-production, because it has tended
to open up lands in the West and keep under cultivation lands in the West that
were .not ripe for opening under the world's economic condition. Then again
during the good years when the high prices were on, we as a people did not allow
the railways as much an increase in freight rates as we shoul(i have done in
order to enable them to build up that surplus that any legitimate business should
have in the inflation, so that they could meet deflation. We did not allow that.
That is our fault, farmers as well as anybody else. We allowed increases when
they were absolutely forced on the people. The last big increase in freight rates,
40 per cent, went into effect on the 30th day of September, 1920, when the
bottom had dropped out of everything, and we had to go round with that increase
of freight rates at a time when the railroads should have been allowed to
accumulate a surplus to take care of the deflation. We will a(hnit these deficits
have to be paid. There is some justification for the C. P. R. being kept up to its
10 per cent rate. It is a controversial question, but I see some justification for
it. We have to meet it as a people, but how are we to meet it? Is to be loaded
on the agriculturist, or should it be put on by general taxation and the farmer
bear his share with all citizens? hiv own private contention is this; that it is
not fair to throw this enormous railway burden on the farmers, the prmmry
producers of this country. The agriculturist and the lumbermen, and to some
extent the miners. They are the men who bear the burdens, because they have
the largest tonnage of a low intrinsic value to move. The farmer should bear
his share of this burden, but it should be as fully divided over society in this
country, and not have it as an enormous burden on one producing centre, and
the only way we can see is a greater disposition of this railway burden over
society at large, and not putting it all on agriculture, which even under the best
of circumstances is not a profitable business, compared with other businesses
putting on them now an undue burden in the railway freight rates. The railway
conditions are not the fault of the farmer entirely. They are the fault of
society at large.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Can you prove that statement, that agriculture even under the best
circumstances is not a profitable business?--A. It never was, and never can be.
Q. You agree then, Professor, that during history all through the ages,
that the man engaged in the tilling of the soil and working longer hours at a less
per hour remuneration than any other business?--A. That is undoubtedly the
truth, hut it is a thing which naturally belongs to the farms.
By the Chairman:
Q. That may be true. tIave you got any reason why it should be true, if
true? A. What I meant to say was this, and I want to make it absolutely
plain. That compared on a sordid dollar basis, agriculture never has and never
will be profitable. It can never be, because people will pay more for land at
any time, whether for farming or for real estate purposes--than its present net
income will justify, because it is the one commodity we have in this world that
cannot be increased in amount, and is bound to go up in value, and these
increases of values in the future are always capitalized in the present price. That
is the thing that belongs to the land.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
130 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
received was $2.70. It was really $2.703 cents. The sale of the milk just met the
cost of production. That cost of production included 5 per cent profit on the
investment, and 26 cents an hour for the farmer's own labour.
By tlie Chairwoman:
Q. Will you forgive me for interjecting something here. You say 5 per
cent of profit on the investment?A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, could farm mortgages be obtained at that time at
5 per cent?--A. :No, not at that time.
Mr. S.Es: We pay eight.
Sir. CAL]DWELL: That is not 5 per cent profit; it is 5 per cent interest.
The ''ESS: Yes, the cows, the buildings housing the cows, the buildings
used in the production of milk.
Q. That does not go to the milk? A. The interest on the pasture land,
but the crops pay the interest on the crop land. lk'ow, for the year ending in
May, 1922, I nmy say, the cost per one hundred was $1.95. There was a reduc-
tion of 75 cents. The average sale price received was $1.83. Now, I have to
make an estimate of the year ending in May, 1923 because that is not completed
yet. If the t-o material requirements for the two previous years of the crops
on hand, and the present price remains about the same, I would estimate the cost
of production will bc about $1.70, and if there is no change in the prices received
in the next two months, the averagc price received will be $1.65.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Still below the cost of production? A. Yes.
cent interest in 1922 or 1923.
There would not be 5 per
By the Chairman:
Q. But, Professor, in all this you are charging against milk production the
full value of the crops that would feed the cows?--A. Yes, for the milk pro-
duction.
Q. And in that fashion the farmer might make a profit?--A. Yes, whatever
profits there were in growing the crops at those prices.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. What was this crop price based on?--A. The farm market price. The
average market price--on what the farmer could have sold it for on the farm.
Q. Have you any suggestion that the sale price of that crop was a market
price?--A. Yes, we have the cost of every crop grown on the farm.
Q. Just briefly, the sale price would be for grain?--A. It would, yes. 'ell,
it 'ould not be on the corn silage; it would just about break even on the cereal
grains. Included in the cost there was an interest on the land. That would be
a profit to him.
Q. At what rate?--A. 5 per cent rate, sir.
Q. Which would not cover the interest?---A. When we started this work in
1917 we set a 5 per cent basis, and we have never departed from it, although
interest rates have gone up, and are beginning to come down, but for the sake
of study purposes we have left it at this arbitrary 5 per cent rate.
Q. For the sake of accuracy your figures would not be correct? He could
not get money at 5 per cent, or even 6 per cent?--A. He could get it for 6 on
farm mortgages, excepting for one year; that is 1920. He could not borrow it
at 6 per cent from a bank to put in an enterprise like buying cattle.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 133
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Is this not a fact, that you will often see three different rigs possibly in
one street at one time, delivering milk?--A. Yes; there is a certain amount,
probably, of illegimate overlapping, that would be better for society if it was
cut out.
Q. There are numberless distributing agencies in Toronto?
Mr. HAMMELL: Practically only two.
The WITESS: There are 47 in Toronto, but two of them, I believe, sell 67
per cent of the milk.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. There are 47 distributing?---A. Yes.
By tle Chairman:
Q. Two of them sell how much? A. Very close to two-thirds of the milk.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would there not be a possibility of a saving in distribution if they were
combined in one distributing agency?--A. That is a doubtful question; I would
hate to answer that. The competition between these two companies has done
more to make efficient distribution of milk in Toronto than anything I know of.
Qo
A large
By Mr. Caldwell:
Still, it takes 6 cents a quart to distribute?--A. It appears to be justified.
part of it can be iustified in actual cash cost distribution.
Qo
roughly
By the Chairnmn:
Their bottles are quite a considerable item?--A. Yes; a bottle is worth
10 cents, and it will only make 22 trips to a customer.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How much of that, Professor--perhaps you can not tell me--how much
of that 6 cents will be as a direct result of the real estate boom and the inflation
of land values; what would that part of their overhead cost them, where their
plants are situated?---A. That would be a very small proportion. Their biggest
cost is their plant cost, pasteurizing, cooling, and bottling, and labour and repairs
to wagons for delivering.
Q. In your opinion, apparently, there is not much to be hoped for in the
way of a reduction in that 6 cents?--A. The biggest hope for reduction is cut-
ting out a lot of this duplication in delivering; that is, where you have a number
of wagons delivering on the one street. That will mean close and harmonious
relations between distributing agencies.
Q. The centralization of all our industries into one great city has changed
things from the old days, when one would go to this place and another some-
where else, and the farmers around there profited by that. Is this centraliza-
tion of all our industries into one big city going to bring almost a downfall in
our production?--A. That is an impossible question to answer, because while
there has been waste and inefficiency and social problems and so on, from the
accumulation of people in large cities; there has been undoubtedly important
savings also in manufacturing and transportation costs. These cities are located
at strategic points, for transportation purposes, and so forth, and I do not
think any man could answer that question.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
138 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Are there any other bulletins that you have which would be of service to
us?--A. Yes, there are seven or eight which we have published on the farm
business, the cost, and so forth, of which they have a supply in Toronto, and
-hich they will be glad to forward.
By the Chairman:
Q. By the same author?--A. They were written by myself and other
members of the Department. These studies were all made under my direction.
Q. Will you give us the nunber of the bulletins?--A. Bulletin :No. 291,
Bulletin :No. 275, Bulletin :No. 284, Bulletin :No. 288, Bulletin :No. 282, Bulletin
:No. 278. and Bulletin :No. 286.
Q. Besides your work as a student and professor at Guelph Agricultural
College, have you had any practical experience in agriculture?--A. Oh yes, I
was never off the farn until the 1st November, 1920.
(. Where did you farm?--A. I was raised on a farm down in Stormont
County. I was a graduate nearly 20 years ago, at the college, and from 1905
until 1915, when I came back to the College after ten years in charge of the
College farm and live stock, and during those ten years I had been managing
large commercial farms.
Q. Down in Stormont County?--A. One in Hastings County, one in York
County, onc in Welland County, and I was also in Iowa. The Iowa farm was
a college farm. I had charge of the college farm and live stock from 1915
until the fall of 1919, four years.
Q. The farmer on the high priced farm is having pretty hard times these
days?--A. Yes, entirely on account of that high price.
Mr. SALES: I was going tO suggest that as Professor Leitch seems to be
possessed of a wonderful fund of information which would be of value to this
Committee, we should avail ourselves of it. You will see from our agenda,
Professor, the scope of this Committee, and I think we might with advantage
ask the Professor to appear before us on some future occasion.
The CI-I_n..a: I think it would be of great benefit to the Committee if the
Professor would be good enough to help us again. I would make this suggestion
to him; if he would take our agenda and look it over--it is broader than we
can possibly cover in all its aspects--but if the Professor would indicate to
us a few of the lines on which he has made a special study, we would be glad
to avail ourselves of his help at a future date. There are two questions which we
want to go into, among others, and these are the co-operative system of market-
ing, and rural credits. Then there are a few fundamental questions which we
are anxious to investigate. One is number 3:
"Because of the difference between the prices of agricultural products
paid to the producer and the ultimate cost of the same to the consumer."
And No. 4:
" The relation of prices of commodities purchased by agricultural
producers and the prices obtained by such producers for their own
products."
These are two very fundamental questions. The clerk will furnish you with
a file of the proceedings of this Committee up to date, and I think I may say
that we would be very glad if Professor Barton would look into these matters
in the same way and help us.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 139
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Might I ask another question? You have heard Professor Barton's
statement regarding the farms giving the greatest amount of profit, those farms
that he calls " self-sustaining." You agree with that statement? A. Yes.
Q. Well, do you consider that farming could be carried on as a strictly
business venture?--A, l,-ot the ordinary type of farm; not mixed farming, or
dairy farming.
Q. Any type? A. Well, I imagine the ranching business could be carried
on as a purely business proposition, but any type of farming which require-
devotion of considerable amount of labour per acre---
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You heard what Professor Barton said about increasing the quality of
that stock, by decreasing the scrub stock and increasing the pure bred in the
herd. Do you agree with him?--A. Yes, I certainly do not agree with Professor
Barton regarding the expediency by legislation of abolishing the scrub bull.
because I do not think it could be done. In nay travels around Ontario I have
had a chance to see the psychological effect of compulsory legislation on things
which people do not believe is the Government's business.. Take for instance
the Dairy Standard Act in Ontario. That is an Act to enforce the payment of
milk by tests. That is an Act which there is no argument against, either on the
matter of justice, or the matter of expediency, and yet the people believe that
it is not the Government's business how people shall sell their products, as long
as they are satisfied tohcmselves. Of course, you know what would happen if
the Government introduced legislation to abolish the scrub bull. It would take
an enforcement officer for every farm in Ontario.
By the Clairman:
Q. As a matter of fact, our English speaking folk do not take kindly to
socialistic legislation?--A. No.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Professor, do you think fruit farming could be made profitable in a
specialized way?--A. Yes. That really is a specialty. In the fruit district the
land adapted for fruit growing is priced so high--
By the Clairman:
Q. The price of the land get so high?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would you agree with Professor Barton that the testing of milk for the
contents of butter fat is the most efficient way of finding out whether your cows
are profitable or not?--A. Yes, a conbination of weighing the milk and the
testing of it.
Q. That naturally goes with it, of course?---A. Yes. That is the only way
you can find out.
Q. That is, the most important feature of making milk production or dairy-
ing profitable--A. Yes.
Q. It is the foundation of the whole thing?A. Yes. You must discover
what you have got, that is not up to the mark, and you must intensify what is
up to the mark.
Mr. I-IAIMELL: Before we adjourn, might we not mention whom we are
going to summon on some of these other questions, such as rural credits?
[hlr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 143
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. What is it now? A. The rate now is $20.
Q. Is there space offered at that rate?---A. This month?
Q. Yes, this month. Where do your ships run in the winter time? A.
From Portland.
Q. Is there space offered from Portland at $20 now?--A. We have several
steamers booked; they are all booked full. We have no space open.
Q. No space open at that price? A. No.
Q. :Navigation opens up from Montreal about the end of next month? A.
About the beginning of hlay. The first sailings from Montreal are about the
middle of May.
Q. Wh.at will be the price then? A. I think the rate will probably be $22.50.
We are quoting 822.50 at the present time.
Q. hia]or Curry, just how are those rates arrived at? A. That is rather a
difficult question to answer directly. It is a question of market conditions; it is
a question of the cost of our fittings; a question of the varying cost of operation;
there are many matters taken into consideration in arriving at the rate--the
question of supply and demand.
Q. There seems to be a certain amount of coincidence in the prices that are
charged for this, as well as for ocean freight rates. All the lines seem to
charge the same rates. Is that a mere coincidence?---A. I don't think that is a
fact, sir.
Q. Not a fact?--A. We were carD'ing cattle in JanuaD" at $15, and ] know
the Donaldson Line had steamers at $20, so the rates are not alwavs the same.
Q. May our farmers who are hoping to ship cattle in the sprlng--may they
hope to find other lines cheaper than $22.50, if you propose to charge them
$22.50?--A. They may not find them cheaper; they may find them higher. We
have no fixed agreement as to rates on cattle.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Y'ith other companies?--A. No fixed agreement at all.
By the Chairman:
Q. Have you a fixed agreement on other agricultural products?--A. We
have certain understandings as to rates on some commodities.
Q. What commodities?--A. Oh, on butter, provisions--
Q. Flour?--A. No, there is no fixed rate on flour. We have what might be
called a gentlemen's agreement as to rates on flour.
Q. rhat is the difference between an " understanding ", and a " gentle-
men's agreement," Maior Curry?--A. There would be difficulty. If any
particular flour shipper came to me and wanted a lower rate, and I thought there
was justice in his argument and I felt we could afford to carry flour at a lower
rate than we were quoting, I could very easily arrange to get him that rate.
Q. How would you arrange to get him that rate? Just give it to him
yourself, or would you confer with others before giving him an answer?--A. On
account of the understanding 'e have, I would have to give notice to the other
steamship companies.
Q. What other steamship companies would you have to give notice to in
such cases?--A. Do you wish me to name the companies?
Q. If you please.--A. The Canadian Pacific, the Cunard Line. the Donald-
son Line. and the Canada Steamship Line.
Q. The Canadian Government Merchant. hlarine?--A. I do not think, sir,
they are in the agreement, but I believe they are represented, and perhaps could
answer that question themselves.
[Mr. 1 . A. Curry.]
1 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Is that the understanding, or is that the gentleman's agreement, Maior
Curry?--A. The whole business is on the basis of a gentlemen's agreement, the
agreement I referred to. There is no fine, no punishment, no definite obligation;
it is merely a matter of honour.
Q. Mrely a matter of honour to maintain tho rates you decide are fair and
reasonable for the public to pay?--A. That is right, sir.
Q. Now, you have been in the steamship business some time?--A. Since
1906.
Q. Did you ever hear of an organization called the North Atlantic Con-
ference?--A. I know of the 1North Atlantic Conference, yes.
Q. What is it? A. I think there are two different conferences that might
come under that head.
Q. You tell us about it. You know much more than we do about this. y---
The North Atlantic Westbound Freight Conference, and the :North Atlantic
Eastbound Freight Conference. They operate, I believe, in much the same way
as the Canadian lines; they have certain discussions as to rates.
Q. What is the object of these discussions?---A. I think it is to discuss
matters of interest to all the steamship companies, and to consider any particular
applications for reductions in rates, or consider market conditions, and the vari-
ous factors that go towards the making of rates.
Q. They establish the rate, do they not?--A. They arrive at the basis
arranged.
Q. And that is taken as a fair basis by those who belong to the conference,
is that not so?---A. That is so, sir, on certain commodities.
Q..Now, has this conference considered the question of what should be
charged to shippers of live stock to Old Country ports, coming here? A. _Not
to my knowledge.
Q. Now, in the ordinary course would that question come before this confer-
ence?--A. No, sir. There is no conference that has an 3- jurisdiction over the
question of cattle rates.
Q. Are the rates charged for cattle a matter of individual contract between
the shipper and the individual lines?---A. Between the shipper or the broker?
Yes, sir.
Q. And the individual lines?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. And therefore if a broker found that for space, say, in May, he will be
asked by your own line or by the Furness Withy, or the Canada Steamship Line,
or the Reford Line--if he found that he was asked by those four lines identically
the same price, we will say for the purpose of argument, $22.50, lie could conclude
that was a mere coincidence?--A. I think the proper conclusion is that it is
about the marke rate. Any one of those in the steamship business knows more
or less the rate he can get, and what rates he cannot get, and what rate is
cheaper, and what rate is not cheaper, and we have to take into consideration the
encourogem6nt of the cattle trade as a steady business, and all those matters are
taken into consideration individually. So far as I am aware, we have only had
one meeting in my memory in 'hich the question of cattle business has been
discussed in any way. That was a very recent one, when we got together on
the question of the new regulations. We are not yet quite clear as to certain
points in connection with the regulations; that is whether fat cattle and store
cattle can be carried on the same steamer, and such questions.
Q. You did have a meeting about that?--A. We had a meeting quite
recently.
Q. Who was represented at that meeting?--A. I think all of the lines who
are interested in the cattle business.
[Mr. P. A. Curry.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 145
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. In Montreal? A. Yes.
Q. We are going to turn away from the question for a moment, Major
Curry. We are here interested in this committee in seeing how we can decrease
the cost of marketing live stock in the Old Country. As one familiar with the
shipping business, have you any suggestion to make to this committee which you
think would be helpful, having in mind the object that we all desire to obtain?
A. Relating particularly, I suppose, to the freight rates--the ocean freight rates?
Q. Is there any scheme of having more regular shipments or any other
expense-saving method which occurs to your mind which would be a help to us?
--A. o, I don't think there is, sir. Any information that the steamship com-
pany could get as to the quantity of cattle available, or the quantity of cattle
that might be shipped to the United Kingdom would be of assistance in arranging
our schedules and providing tonnage to move that cattle. We, at the present
time, are augmenting our cattle service because we are looking for a very heavy
movement of cattle. We have maintained, generally speaking, a fortnightly
service of cattle steamers. We are now putting on a weekly service of cattle
steamers. In regard to the reduction in the cost of marketing cattle in the
United Kingdom. I think the freight rate is already on a very low basis. If
the rate is reduced to any extent, I think many of the ships will be withdrawn
from service. I can quote one particular instance of a steamer with a capacity
of 1,000 head of cattle, and we have practically a firm offer of that number at
$20, and we decided the loss would be so great, we laid the steamer off. That
is the principal reason we are now trying to get rates on paying basis. We
are anxious to do all we can--the steamship company--to assist the cattle
shipper in every way possible, but we are not prepared to carry the cattle at
a loss.
Q. In the long run somebody would have to pay for it? A. Yes.
Q. Turning from cattle. Is there an agreement amongst the shipping com-
panies in Montreal as to the cost of carrying wheat from Canadian to United
Kingdom ports? A. It is rather difficult for me to answer questions in regard
to particular commodities, as I have not had very much time to prepare myself
and these matters are handled by my freight manager.
Q. I don't want to pin you down to too great exactness, Major Curry, but
as general manager of Montreal you will know whether freight rates on wheat
are settled with individual shippers--between individual shippers and individual
lines--or whether all the lines have a uniform rate for wheat?---A. The condi-
tions vary so much, in connection with the carriage of grain that it is difficult
to keep track of the fluctuations, and the agreements, if any, that are in existence.
I am not trying to evade answering, but at the present time I know we ourselves
are quoting different rates to different ports. I just say that to show how
difficult it is to a.nswer the question. Other lines are quoting different rates
again.
Q. I have been told--and you will tell me if I am wrong--that in order to
settle upon the rates that are to be charged upon ocean transportation from
Montreal to oversea ports, there is a meeting held about once a week by the
staemship representativs in Montreal, at which these matters are discussed, and
the amount of freight rates to be charged disseminated to those interested?--A.
The freight managers of the different lines do meet periodically for the purpose,
as I said just now, of discussing matters of mutual interest, particularly in regard
to the question of rates.
Q. Are these rates settled in Montreal, or are they settled in New York?
--A. What rates do you refer to, sir?
Q. Say the rates on flour or butter or cheese or apples.---A. They are set,
as far as the Canadian lines are concerned, in Montreal.
[-r. P. A. Curry.]
--I0
146 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-1Zl GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. After a conference with New York, or after a communication with
New York? A. The lines running from their ports, and the lines running from
Canadian ports, keep in consultation as to rates and conditions.
Q. Turning to the question of rates charged for flour, your line would
carry_ flour from time to time?--A. Yes.
Q. A gentleman informed me of a somewhat extraordinary situation, Col.
Curry, concerning which perhaps you will have some explanation to make.
will state the facts as given me, and you will tell me first whether the facts, to
your knowledge, are right or wrong, and if they are correct you will offer what
explanation you think wise. I was told that at the present time flour milled
in the United States was given, even on ships of British and Canadian registry,
on voyages from :New York to Aberdeen, Avonmouth, Bristol, Cardiff, Dundee,
Glasgow, Belfast, Cork, Hull, Leath, Liverpool, London, Manchester, Dublin
and Londonderry, an advantage over Canadian flour, running from two to five
cents per hundred pounds. In other words, a ship may leave New York loaded
with sacks of flour of the same size and the same weight, and if these sacks
contain flour milled in the United States they will be carried from two to five
cents a hundred pounds cheaper than sacks carried in the same hold, perhaps,
destined for the same destination, but milled in Canada, and containing Cana-
dian flour. Is that right?--A. I think that is quite possible. Again, they would
not have to consult us, we do not know what they are doing, officially. If they
reduce their rates, it does not follow that we immediately reduce ours.
Q. No; perhaps I put my sentence in a somewhat involved fashion. The
complaint we have against this system is that, say, a British company will
carry over to Liverpool two sacks of flour, let us say, each weighing 100 pounds,
and the one will contain American milled flour and the other Canadian milled
flour, and what we object to is the fact that the British company, or the Cana-
dian steamship company, as the case may be, is carrying the American milled
flour from two to five cents per hundred pounds cheaper than it carries our own
flour. I think there is ground for an explanation of that.---A. I am not qtfite
clear, sir, yet. Are you referring to the steamship companies, my company,
carrying flour, American flour, from Montreal at a lower rate?
Q. I am not making a charge particularly against your company, I am
making the charge against all companies. My informant told me that if you
took American flour, flour perhaps milled from Canadian wheat, but milled
in the United States, and asked for that American flour to be carried, let us
say, on a British ship or a Canadian ship from New York, that that Canadian
steamship company or British steamship company would carry that flour from
two to five cents per hundred pounds cheaper than it would carry flour milled
from Canadian wheat, but milled in Canada?NA. I am not able to state for
the ships sailing out of New York, I have no jurisdiction over them, I am not
aware of the rates.
Q. My informant also tells me that the same practice obtains in regard
to ships from Canadian ports. This is what he tells me. tie says that if a ship
bound for Aberdeen, was carrying flour, U.S.A. flour, from New York, it would
be carried at the rate of 18 cents per hundred pounds. If it was Canadian
flour going from New York, it would be charged 22 cents per hundied pounds,
and if it went from a Canadian port it would be charged exactly the same price,
22 cents a hundred pounds. That does not seem to me a fair practice, and I
would like to know if there is any explanation you can offer to this Committee?--
A. The rates you mentioned are not familiar to me. I was not aware that flour
was being carried from New York to Aberdeen at 18 cents. Neither was I
aware that the rate from Montreal is 22 cents. I think I can answer your
[1. P. A. C'urry.]
148 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Was there any difference between the rate on American and Canadian
flour taken by Portland? A. I would not be positive, but my impression is
that we have not carried any American flour from Portland this winter.
Q. When did you last carry it?---A. I do not remember when it was. We
are not carrying very much flour at the present time; the rate is too low.
Q. I think you said, Major Curry, that there was a joint decision arrived
at by steamship companies, as to the price at which you would carry butter?
--A. The rate, I think, at present on butter is $1.40, in refrigerators.
Q. How is that arrived at?--A. It is very difficult to answer that question.
Again it depends upon market conditions.
Q. Apart from what I might call economic factors, in arriving at the rate
is there any arrangement made, either call it an understanding or a " gentle-
man's agreement," between the representatives of the lines as to the fixing of
the rate on butter?---A. It has been discussed amongst the lines, and a rate
arrived at some years ago, and it was recently reduced.
Q. Was it recently reduced as a result of individual action, or joint action
after consultation?---A. I was not present at the meeting the butter rate was
dealt with.
Q. Major, you are the head of the shop there; what is going on of real
interest and importance you are aware of, are you not?--A. In regard to the
rate situation?
Q. Yes.--A. In a general way, yes.
Q. When was this last meeting held, that you were not at; there was such
meeting? A. The meeting where the butter rate was discussed?
Q. Yes, sir; we are on butter now; we will stay with that.--A. I am not
aware of when the meeting was held, sir, or where it was held.
Q. Was it within the last six months?--A. I could tell you that by turning
up my records, I could tell you the exact date, but I have not it in my head.
I do not know whether it was within the last six months.
Q. At any rate, the rate arrived at was what?--A. $1.40.
Q. When such an arrangement is arrived at, is there a consultation with
New York?---A. All matters of interest are discussed; in other words, the New
York lines and the Canadian lines are naturally interested in the rte situa-
tion; they are frequently competing in the same territories, and they do have
discussions as to the rates.
Q. I suppose these discussions are largely for the purpose of avoiding
competition, are they not? Competition as far as rates are concerned; you
may have competition as to service, but so far as competition as to rates are
concerned, is not the object of the conference to avoid competition?--A.
Amongst others?
Q. Yes?--A. There are many objects.
Q. Is that not one of the objects that interest us as representing the public?
A. I think sir, there are many more familiar with the detailed arrangements in
connection ith the establishment of rates or the enforcement of rates. I have
nothing whatever to do with it. All I have done in preparing myself for this
Committee is--I got a very brief telegram, and I merely looked up what rates
we were quoting at the present time, and I also came with full information as to
what we were doing with our cattle spaces, cattle ships.
Q. We are obliged to you for all the information you are giving us, but I
have the feeling at the back of my head that you really do know how those rates
were established, although you were not present at the last meeting. I think
you could tell us, but if you can say sincerely that you cannot tell us, and know
[ir. 1 . A.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 149
APPENDIX No. 3
nothing about it, I will not press it? A. I do not know enough about it to
answer your questions intelligently.
Q. Let me put a hypothetical case to you: Suppose I was a large butter
exporter in Montreal, and I went down to you te-morrow morning to your office,
and I said " I have 25,000 boxes of butter to ship, I want the best rates that you
can give me, and you, using your judgment and without reference to anybody
else, quoted me a rate below $1.40.--A. I would not do it, sir.
Q. Why?--A. Because I do not consider that we can carry butter at a
lower rate.
Q. Suppose you thought that you could carry butter at a lower rate, would
you then feel free to quote me a lower rate without reference to anybody else?
--A. I would have to notify the other lines that I proposed to quote a lower rate.
Q. What other lines would you advise that you proposed to quote to me a
lower rate? A. The same as I mentioned just now.
Q. The Furness-Withy, the Canada Steamships, and the C. P. R., and
perhaps some others? A. Yes.
Q. All the other lines in Montreal?--A. The Canadian lines.
Q. Suppose the representatives of the other lines said to you Major Curry
"You must not quote Mr. McMaster a lower rate" What would you do then?
--A. If such a situation arose, I would have to give very careful thought befor
I decided, as I have to give careful thought before I answer you. But it would
be my privilege to quote that lower rate. They could not stop me quoting that
rate.
Q. Of course they could not stop you quoting a lower rate, but the gentle-
men's agreement would have undergone a certain strain, would it not?--A. Not
after I had given notice.
Q. If you had any such gentlemen's agreement or understanding, could you
have quoted a lower rate without notifying the others? A. :Not if th under-
standing is worth anything.
Q. Does what you have said in regard to butter apply also to cheese?--A.
Similar conditions.
Q. Similar conditions apply to cheese. Does it apply to chilled meats?--A.
Chilled meats in the refrigerators?
Q. Yes.--A. Yes.
Q. What about meats that are not in the refrigerators? Does it apply to
them? A. Boxed meats?
Q. Yes?--A. Yes.
Q. Would it apply to apples?--A. Yes.
Q. Would it apply to canned fruit and vegetables? A. Yes.
Q. There is one other question I want to ask you. In this happy family of
steamship companies with so friendly relations, with gentlemen's agreements
and understandings, does the Canadian Government Merchant Marine form a
part.I will not say of your combine, but of this loose association?---A. I think
the Canadian Government Merchant Marine is represented here and can answer
that question.
Q. Suppose that you wanted to give me a lower rate on butter, would you
have to find out from Mr. Teakle whether you could give me that rate? A. Not
from Mr. Teakle.
Q. From Mr. Cunningham, or from whoever has charge of that Department
of the Canadian Merchant Marine? A. I have not paid any particular attention
to the handling of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. My under-
standing is that its representative attends the meetings more as a listener, or
spectator than otherwise.
rMr. P. A. Curry.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 151
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. That is the whole charge between the company and the shipper?--A.
Between the company and broker.
Q. No, between the company and the shipper? The broker gets space for
the shipper, he is the go-between for your steamship company and the man who
has the cattle?--A. In some cases, not in all cases.
Q. You say the total charge is one and a quarter cents?--A. One and one
quarter per cent.
Q. I have some information that you people pay two and a half per cent,
that is between the steamship agency and the broker. Is that correct? A.
The steamship agency?
Q. Yes.--A. We are the steamship agency.
Q. I thought you were the manager of the company?--A. There is no other
steamship agency. I do not quite understand what you mean.
Q. You stated that you were the general manager of the White Star?--A.
That is correct.
Q. Then if you are the manager, you cannot be the agency?--A. We have
no steamship agency.
Q. So you do your business direct with the broker?---A. That is correct.
Q. Do you give the same opportunity to a farmer to ship his cattle or to
secure space as you give to the broker?--A. It is not very often that we come
into direct contact with the farmer. If we have any applications direct from
any farmers, we certainly give them equal consideration with any other appli-
cation.
Q. What kind of contract do you have between yourself and the broker?
---A. We have no contract with the broker other than that he takes our space
for a certain named shipper.
Q. And if he fails to fulfil it?--A. Then we look to the shipper.
Q. You do not look to the broker? Have you ever known in your experience
of a big cattle operator cancelling his space after he had secured it and held it
for several days?--A. I can only recall one instance of that.
Q. Will you tell us who it was?--A. He was an American shipper, one of
the packers.
Q. Do you remember how much space they got and held for several days
and then cancelled?--A. I think about 200 spaces.
Q. Did-your boat go unfilled?---A. :No, we disposed of them elsewhere.
Q. Do you think Mr. Curry, it would be in the interest of shippers generally
to have one central booking agency, instead of three or four brokers, competing
against each other for space? A. One central booking agent?
Q. Yes, one central broker doing all this booking of space instead of three
or four different brokers bidding against each other?--A. I do not think there
would be any advantage in any arrangement of that kind.
Q. That is, your company do not take advantage of the law of supply
and demand? There are three brokers, and they all want space, you do not
take advantage of that to raise the price?---A. They are not all asking for space
for the same shippers. That is, each broker wants space for his clients, and the
same condition ould exist if all of the shippers sent their applications for
space to one broker. They would have. to take into consideration the American
shipper.
Q. Is there any quantity of that?--A. Of American cattle?
Q. Yes.--A. Yes, quite a good deal.
Q. Do you think that any large increase in the shipping of cattle will affect
the price of space?--A. Of course, there has already been a very large increase
in the movement of cattle during the last few months. I do not know that it
has particularly affected the rates.
[Mr. P. A. Cur'.l
152 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. It has gone from $15.00 to $20.007--A. The $15.00 was only on three
steamers of one line, and that was at the time that we had certain space fitted
which we could not use for other cargo, and we made a distress rate.
Q. Did you lose money on that?--A. We certainly did.
Q. The point I am trying to make is this: if the volume of freight increases
--(because you always speak of volume; " if they only had volume enough they
could reduce the rates "--that is a greater demand than the supply,) then you
will raise your rates accordingly?--A. I do not think so. It will mean more ships
will come io the trade. We have brought more ships in now.
Q. I thought you stated earlier that the rates depended upon the supply and
demand, so if there is a demand for space--A. I take it what you are asking
me is whether there will be a further increase in the rate above the $22.50?
Q. If there is a large supply of cattle to go forward to Britain, and a greater
demand for space? That is the point exactly.--A. It is possible the rate might
go to $25.
Q. Do you think that increased rate would be justified? A. I think there
would be justification if the trade would stand the rate. We are trying to make
as much money as we can with our ships. I do not attempt to deny that. We
are having a very hard time of it just now.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. I understood you to state, Major Curry, that you did not hold the
broker responsible for the space he books if he does not fill it, if the shipper
does not " come across " with the cattle.--A. We would look to the broker in
the first instance. If we booked space through the broker--with Mr. Campbell,
for instance, we would look to him to see that the shipper filled that space.
Q. Supposing the shipper does not fill the space, what action do you take?
--A. You mean if the ship actually goes short of cattle?
Q. If the shipper does not supply the cattle---A. If he cancels, we would
endeavour to let the space somewhere else.
Q. But providing your space went vacant, now to whom would you look
for pay for that space, to Mr. Campbell, or the actual shipper?--A. I would
look to Mr. Campbell in the first instance, as the bookings were made with him
and he, of course, would look to the shipper the man who engaged the space.
Q. You look to the broker, and he must look to the next man? A. If the
booking is made in that way--whoever is making the booking, is the one we look
to.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Zaior Curry, you stated that representatives of the various companies
met together and discussed rates with regard to trade and general business of
the company at various times.---A. Market conditions, you mean? What trade
do you refer to?
Q. With regard to the future trade of the company, and the rates you will
probably charge.--A. On cattle?
Q. Cattle, for instance?A. :No.
Q. You do not? A. :No.
Q. :Now, the rate on cattle at the present time, you say, is $20? A. We
have been carrying cattle at $20; we have a ship sailing to-day at $20.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. From Montreal?--A. :No, from Portland.
[Mr. P. A. Curry.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 153
APPENDIX No. 3
By 2lit. Elliott:
Q. The rate you have in mind is $22.50, for May--from Montreal?--A.
Yes.
Q. In fixing the rate, would the knowledge which you undoubtedly have
that there is possibly in the neighbourhood of 200,000 cattle which must go
forward to the Old Country this year, affect your fixation of this rate? That
is, cattle are in the country: the ultimate destination is the Old Country
markets; the possession of that knowledge, which your company undoubtedly
has, would have what effect or what bearing on the fixation of this $22.50 rate?
--A. Of course, there is a bearing; there is no use of our fixing $22.50 rate if
there are only a very limited number of cattle to go forward. If there are no
cattle to go, there is no use of fixing the rate. We consider there is a very heavy
movement of cattle to go, and we consider that the cattle business can be run
on a paying basis.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Which business is that? A. The cattle business.
Q. The shipping of cattte?--A. The carrying of cattle.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. In other words, it practically amounts to the fact that you charge all
the trade will stand? You know the stuff must go over, and you want to get
all the trade will stand.--A. :No, we do not do that.
Q. That is not your idea? A. We are anxious to keep the cattle trade
alive. I am very strongly of the opinion we could get $25 for the May space,
if we asked it.
Q. :Now, with regard to the American cattle. About what would be the
percentage of American cattle handled by your company as compared with
Canadian cattle? A. It varies, almost every week. I cannot possibly say.
Q. Do you think there is a larger volume of American cattle? A. :No. I
would say there was more Canadian cattle. On our Canadian steamers we
endeavour to give preference to our Canadian cattle. We have our Canadian
service, and have bad for fifty years, running from Montreal, and we are inclined
to give preference to Canadian cattle.
Q. At the present time you are shipping from Portland, are you? A. Yes.
Q. Well, is there any preference at the present time for American cattle
shipped from that port by your company?--A. We have traded a good deal
of our space in the United States, but it very often rests with the individual
shipper, whether he ships American or Canadian cattle; in other words, whether
he buys his cattle in Chicago or Toronto.
The CHhmMhN: Have we any other questions to ask, Mr. Curry?
Mr. GARDINER: 1 would like to ask one question.
Is there any American cattle likely to go from Canadian Ports?---A. We
have not booked any. It is quite possible. We have carried American Cattle
from Montreal before.
Q. In view of the regulations that are likely to go into effect in Great
Britain when the embargo is removed, do you propose to take any steps to see
that the Canadian cattle does not come in contact with the American cattle, and
so prejudice the Canadian cattle? A. The Canadian store cattle?
Q. Yes.---A. We are bound to, under the regulations.
Q. And you propose to take the necessary steps in regard to that? A. Yes.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. The new steamers have to be specially equipped for carrying cattle?--
A. We are fitting up some new steamers now.
[Mr. P. A. Curry.]
154 ,PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. What about the expense of fittings? Is it expensive? A. It is, yes.
Q. What do you have to do?--A. It depends where you are putting the
fittings. On the exposed deck--it depends on the ship. There is a great deal of
ventilation and plumbing that has to be done, and lighting, in order to comply
with the regulations. It varies, I would say, from $13 to $20 as the initial cost.
Q. Is there any difference whether it is on deck, or between decks? A. Oh,
yes.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Which is the more costly? A. On the exposed deck, is the most costly,
as a rule.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. I-Iow much would it be? What. would be the cost? Have you any idea?
--A. It varies a good deal, according to the steamer, but it would range between
$13 and $20 on the exposed decks, and in between decks, between $8 and $12.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Do you find any difficuty in getting a return cargo from Great Britain?
--A. At the present time we are getting very little, if any.
Q. As a general rule, your ships are returned light?---A. The cattle ships,
you refer to ?
Q. Yes? who would carry it? A. The faster ships get most of the cargo
coming this way.
Q. What do you do with your vessels? Carry water for ballast?--A.
They have tanks they fill up. Yes. They carry some cargo, but the most of
cargo this way is not so heavy as it was the other way, most of the cargo we get
comes in the Megantic, the Doris, or the Regina, fast passenger steamers.
Q. So the cattle have to pay the cost of the ship's journey both ways?mA.
Pretty nearly. I would not say that absolutely. They pick up what earnings
the)" can coming out.
Q. But as a rule the cost is borne by the cattle going out?---A. Yes.
J. W. NCOL, a witness called and sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Nicol, you have been with the Furness Withy Company some
years? A. About twenty years.
Q. What position do you occupy with them at the present time? A.
Manager, Montreal office.
Q. You have been present in the Committee Room this afternoon, Mr.
Nicol?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have heard the evidenc given by Major Curry? A. Yes.
Q. On the whole, do you agree or disagree with him?---A. On the whole,
I agree with him.
Q. :Now that will enable us to shorten our examination considerably. I
placed a question before Major Curry concerning the relative rates of freight
charged on Canadian flour and American flour, first, from New York, and second,
from all Canadian ports. The apparent grievance which I brought before the
Major's attention was this, that American flour was carried, according to the
figures submitted to me, from two to five cents per one hundred pounds cheaper
from :New York than this Canadian flour, and about the same amount cheaper
than Canadian flour from Canadian ports. First of all, does that seem fair in
[Mr. P. A. Curry.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION$ 155
APPENDIX No. 3
your view, to our Canadian millers or Canadian agriculturists? A. Well. as
far as American flour being carried on American bottoms is concerned, I think
the lower rate was largely brought about when the hew elections came up in
the States.--
Q. We will not bother about the American bottoms at all. I understand
this applies as well to Canadian and British registry ships, as well as American
bottoms, so we will leave the American bottoms to one side for the moment and
centre our discussion on British and Canadian ships. First of all, are the facts
I placed before you substantially correct? A. I have heard that they are.
Q. I will ask you, as a Canadian citizen, to tell this Committee whether
in your opinion you consider that a fair thing for the Canadian exporter, the
Canadian miller, and the Canadian agriculturists who grows the grain?---A. Well,
as far as statistics are concerned--
Q. We will not bother about statistics for the moment. It is a preliminary
question. First of all, do you consider this fair or unfair?--A. To a certain
extent it is unfair.
Q. :Now, is there any excuse for that unfairness? Is there any reason for
that unfairness? A. As I say, there are certain conditions which you have to
look into. The Canadian miller may be in a position to sell his flour at a much
better advantage than the American miller.
Q. But why should you help yourselves out of that?---A. I beg your
pardon?
Q. Why should the shipping companies help themselves?--A. In other
words, it is not necessary for a Canadian line to come down and make as low
a rate as out of the American ports. We can only carry flour for a certain
figure, to give us some kind of a fair return, and there is no reason why, if flour
could be shipped out of the American ports at, say, fifteen cents--we should
come down to a fifteen-cent basis. If the volume of flour which is moved via
Canadian ports is three times as much as via American ports, it shows the
business must be moving.
Q. Are you attempting to iustify this discrimination?---A. :No, I am not
attempting to do that at all.
Q. Is the only reason why they charge more because they can get more?--
_. :No, not necessarily.
Q. What other reason is there? I suppose a pound of American flour and
a pound of Canadian flour weigh just the same?---A. Yes.
Q. And I suppose the sacks are just about the same size, and just as easily
handled ?---A. Probably.
Q. Now, is it not grossly unfair that a bag of Canadian flour bound from
:New York to London placed side by side by American flour, weighing exactly
the same--why that Canadian bag of flour should pay five cents a hundred
pounds more to make the trip?--A. Well, I do not know whether I can answer
that question.
Q. Do you think, as a patriotic Canadian citizen, and an experienced
steamship man, you should try to better that condition?--A. Well, speaking
for my line--our two principal services which we operate are to Hull and Man-
chester.
Q. From where? A. From Montreal and St. John.
Q. Do you ever go to :New York?--A. :No--well, our line does run to New
York, but we carry very, very little flour as far as we are concerned. Both these
ports, Hull and Manchester, are milling ports, and they handle large quantities
of grain--
Q. And, therefore, such unfairness which you have committed against the
Canadian miller is so small that really you should not be bothered about it.--
A. As far as we are concerned, yes.
Mro J. W. Nicl.]
156 PEC1AL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. What about Portland? Does the same thing apply to Portland?--A.
I do not know. We have no service from Portland, sir.
Q. Do you carry passengers on your boats?--A. No, we are not a pas-
senger line; it is merely freight.
Q. Do not you carry them at all?--A. We probably carry one, if he wants
to go over. We probably have one room.
Q. There is no steamship company carrying an American at a cheaper rate
than Canadians, because they are Americans, is there?---A. No. Not that I
know of.
Q. There is a meeting held from time to time of the steamship representa-
tives in Montreal?--A. Yes.
Q. What do they meet for?--A. They meet just to consider trade condi-
tions, to get together.
Q. In a sort of a Rotary Club?--A. No, not exactly.
Q. Do you discuss rates?---A. We do discuss rates, yes.
Q. Do you decide upon rates?--A. In a way, yes, we decide upon rates.
Q. You say " in a way "--what way?--A. If the present rate is considered
too high, or anything like that, or if we have any recommendation for a lower
rate, we give everything consideration. We might probably reduce the rate.
Q. And if the rate were not, in your opinion, high enough, you might
probably increase it?--A. Probably.
Q. Do you all stick by that?---A. Not necessarily.
Q. How far do you stick by it?--A. I might say as conditions warrant it.
Q. And after you have arranged ocean rates, have you no gentlemen's
agreement or understanding about the rate?--A. We have a gentlemen's under-
standing, as Major Curry has said, but if there is a question of reducing the
rates, it is generally brought to the attention of the other lines before any
reductions are made. The same with the increases.
Q. Do you ever confer with New York?---A. Yes, we do.
Q. Why?--A. It is only natural to find out what they are doing down
there. We have to keep in touch with conditions in New York what rates
they are charging.
Q. Are the rates for Montreal set by this qorth Atlantic conference east-
bound?--A. Eastbound?
Q. Yes.--A. No, not necessarily; they are not.
Q. You say " not necessarily." To what exent?--A. We have our own
lines here in ]XIontreal that make our own rates; they make their own rates.
Q. Let mc tell you a story, which I understand is a true story. The Nova
Scotians are very able people--.A. Yes.
Q. And imediately after the war the steamship companies in December,
1918, charged them as high as $5 a barrel for carrying their barrels of apples
to the Old Country, and the Nova Scotians objected. Imagine, $5 a barrel for
apples. Do you know, Mr. qicol, they did not come to Montreal and talk to
the lines? They 'ent to qew York, and at qew York they saw Mr. Fetter-
hof--do you know him?--A. I know the gentleman.
Q. They saw Mr. Jackson. Do you know him?---A. Yes.
Q. They saw Mr. Farnham. Do you "know him?--A. No.
Q. They saw Mr. Connor. Do you know him?--A. Yes.
Q. They saw Mr. Kennick. Do you know him?--A. Yes.
Q. They saw Mr. Mclntyre. Do you know him?--A. Yes.
Q. You seem to be keeping in pretty close touch with the New York steam-
ship men.--A. I have been in qew York quite a lot.
Q. They saw Mr. Taylor. Do you know him?--A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Payne?--A. I do not know him.
[lIr. J. W. Nicol.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 159
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sales:
Q. 13o you hold them once a month?--A. We might, and might not.
Q. Are meetings held once a month?--A. Once a week.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Every Tuesday?--A. Every Tuesday.
By the Chairman:
Q. Where is the place, sir?--A. Different places--different places. Well,
the lines generally have board rooms, and it is convenient to use these board
rooms.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. About this $5 apple rate from Halifax, is it a fact that the Nova Scotia
shippers got Norwegian carriers, and that has something to do with the drop
in the rate? A. I do not think it has anything to do with it whatever.
Q. Why did they drop the rate?--A. Simply because they were asked to
put the rates down.
By Mr. Hammcll:
Q. That is a simple way to get them down.---A. At the time, perhaps they
were justified in bringing them down. We appreciate the fact that sometimes
there is a limit to everything.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. But I understand it was right in the middle of the season, right at the
time they found they were going to pay this exorbitant rate, and they got :Nor-
wegian carriers.---A. There have been Norwegian carriers going into Halifax
year in and year out. Our rate is $1 and they have been going in at 90 cents.
hey have to get some kind of cargo.
Q. Do your Portland boats call at Halifax?A. No, our St. John boats do.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You have a potato warehouse rented at the port of St. John?--A. I
believe we have; I am not quite familiar with that.
Q. It is rented in the name of the Furness Line.---A. I do not think so, I
think there is a warehouse which our boats use, or there is an understanding
that the potatoes can be put in for housing.
Q. Is it not a fact that it is rented in the name of the company? A. I do
not think so. I am not familiar with any contract which we may have there.
Q. Who is that warehouse controlled by, do you know? A. I do not know,
I know it is there, because it has been mentioned to me.
Q. Now, you are shipping potatoes from St. John to Cuba? A. I believe
so. I have nothing to do with it at this end at all.
Q. You have nothing to do with making the rates on potatoes?--A. :Nothing
whatever, it is absolutely under the control of our St. John office.
Q. Who is your man there?--A. D. W. Ledingham.
Q. Can he make rates without consulting the Montreal office?--A. He never
consults us at all about this, because it is not necessary.
Q. Why?--A. We are not interested in it.
Q. They are your vessels, are they not?--A. :No, sir, chartered steamers.
Q. By your company?--A. Probably he may have chartered them, or they
may be chartered by the people loading them.
Q. May this not be the reason you are not interested, because these vessels
are being chartered by the people loading them? A. I do not know that they
are being chartered by the people loading them.
[Mr. J. W. Nicol.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 161
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Twenty years ago, cattle were being shipped at $7.50 per head?--
A. Cattle used to be shipped at 42 shillings.
Q. Mr. Campbell told us 30 shillings.--A. I do not remember 30, I remem-
ber 35.
Q. There is a very considerable increase.--A. But you must remember that
you are going back a long time. The operating expenses of a boat now and
then are two different things.
Q. I was going to ask if you could tell us about what the percentage in
increase of operation is? A. I would think, of course that came in during the
war, that is about eight years ago.
Q. What is the per cent increase in operation? A. I could not say offhand.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Approximately 100 per cent?--A. More than that. It is as high as
300 per cent sometimes. You would hardly believe it.
The CHAIRMAN: Any more questions?
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Are you laying plans for next year at all?--A. Not yet. We hope to
have these boats in condition right along.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is all your space taken for some months ahead?--A. To the end of
April.
Q. Booked by whom? A. By Mr. Campbell and the Grain Growers.
Q. How many of your ships are hired direct from the Old Country?---A. I
do not know.
Q. How much have the Grain Growers got? A. One boat, 350 head.
Q. That is all they have got?--A. Yes, sailing on April 14th.
The CHAmMAN: We are very much obliged to you, sir, for your attendance.
We will now call on Mr. Doherty.
L. A. W. DoHERTY, called and sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Doherty, you are with the Canada Steamship Lines?--A. Yes.
Q. Just what position do you hold with them?--A. Freight traffic manager.
Q. Have you been in this ocean navigation business for some time?---A. No,
e are infants in the business, compared with the old lines out of Montreal.
Q. Mr. Doherty, you have heard the evidence given by Major Curry?--
A. Yes.
Q. Do you ,qgree substantially with the replies made to my various questions
and to the questions of the other members of the Committee by Major Curry?
--A. Yes, sir, in conjunction with those of Mr. Nichol.
Q. Are you familiar with this discrimination against our Canadian flour
in New York?--A. I have a knowledge of it, sir, yes.
Q. You have a knowledge of it before you came into this room?---A. Yes.
Q. Do you think there is anything our Canadian lines could do to offset or
put an end to this unfair discrimination against our flour?---A. To me it seems
to be a matter to adiust itself, in view of the low rate prevailing on flour. I
think Mr. Nicol tried to explain the reason for the very low rate out of New
York. I do not know whether you are aware of the fact that there was an
[Mr. J. W. Nicol.]
-11
164 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14- GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You have five Norwegian ships?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. And three of yours?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they are combined in the Inter-continental Transport Service?--
A. Those eight boats are operating in that service.
Q. They are combined?---A. Not combined.
Q. Are they not?--A. No, they are owned by their respective owners.
Q. What service does this Inter-continental Transport Service render? A.
Do you mean render to the owners?
Q. Render to those three ships of yours and to the Norwegian ships? A.
The idea is this: Those three ships and the Norwegian five ships form a line
called the Inter-continental Transport Service. We charter for them and
secure business, but the profits and all that is a matter of agreement between
the interests in Norway and the interests of our Company in Montreal. I do
not know much about that.
Q. You get a percentage on the freight?--A. I have no knowledge of the
internal arrangelment.
Q. You represent this company at the weekly meetings?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are any arrangements entered into on behalf of the Canada Steamships
Line as to the Norwegian ships? A. The Canada Steamships are not represented
at all. I act as traffic manager for both companies; when I go there I am not
the Canada Steamships man.
Q. Those agreements which are, I understand, arrived at on Tuesday, will
hold, I suppose, until the following meeting?---A. :Not necessarily; they can
change it the same afternoon.
By the Chairman:
Q. They can call an emergency meeting? A. Possibly it might be arranged
that way.
The CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. One of the other witnesses mentioned the International Mercantile
Marine as having some connection with this company. What relation has your
Intercontinental Transport Service to the International Mercantile Marine?--A.
I think that was misunderstood. The steamships company referred to is on its
own, embracing three or four companies inside it. It has nothing to do with any
other steamship company in Montreal or :New York. They are just as much a
line as the Cunard Line itself. They have no connection with any other interests
at all. They are a company within themselves entirely.
Q. That is your company?--A. :No, I thought you had reference to the
International Mercantile Marine.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. Can you give the committee any information with regard to the increased
cost of operation at the present time as compared say. with before the war?--A.
You see, I am not the business adviser in that case. We only started to operate
in the latter part of the war, and we had no history behind us from which we
could quote figures.
Q. You have no figures to show what the cost of operating your boats would
be?--A. We have figures in our operating department, on what it would cost to
operate our boats, but my knowledge of that is of a general character, what I
hear said and discussed, and what the gentleman said before me about the
operating costs is, so far as my understanding goes, true. My purpose is to get
traffic for the boats.
[Mr. L. A. W. Doherty.]
166 SPECIAL COM IITTEE
13o14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. You arrange a rate at those meetings; the rate is arranged at those
meetings?--A. Well, I do not know that I would say that.
Q. What is the ob]ect of the meetings if it is not to arrange rates? A. It
is to keep in touch with one another as to the situation from time to time.
Q. And is that done by each one telling the other what he proposes to
charge?--A. Yes.
Q. Did you evcr leave any meeting proposing to charge different rates
from those who wcre in attendance at the meeting?---A. Oh, no, I would say
not.
Q. You would say not. When you are asked for a rate, let us say a day
after tile meeting, a rate on a certain commodity, what rate do you in the first
place quote?--A. We quote the rate according to our tariff.
Q. According to the tariff which has been arranged the day before with
the representatives of tile other lines?--A. Oh, no, no, not necessarily.
Q. I am not asking you as to whether it is necessary; I am asking you is
it a usual thing--you have told us that you attend those meetings where rates
are discussed, and you say that you attend with the reservation always of
being able to depart from this rate if you think it is in the public interest to do
so?--A. Yes.
Q. Tha is, I understand the position you assume. :Now, admitting that,
when you are asked the day after the meeting for a rate on a commodity, what
rate do you as a matter of custom quote to the inquirer? A. The rate we have
in our tariff.
Q. Even if that rate in the tariff was different than the rate agreed upon
the day before?--A. It would not be different.
Q. It would not be different? A. I do not say we agree on rates the day
before, but our tariff would always be made to conform with what our rates
are what our basis is.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. How do you build your tariff rates?--A. You have got me there; that
is beyond me.
The Chairman:
Q. If they are not builded are they not put together on Tuesday afternoon?
A. :No, there have been times where there have been changes in the rates as
a result of the discussions at the Tuesdav meetings.
Q. Now, supposing you have attendec a meeting on Tuesday afternoon, and
the next day you are asked for a rate on butter. You have agreed, or it has
been agreed, the afternoon before, for a rate of $1.40 per 100 pounds. Would
you consider yourselves at liberty to quote a rate say, of $1.30 per 100 pounds
without conferring with the other lines?--A. Not without conferring. I would
feel it was only fair on my part to notify them.
Q. Now why,?--A. Because when we were asked to sit in at the meetings
of these lines we agreed to do that, and, while holding ourselves free, we cer-
tainly would not take advantage of sitting in at these meetings and then per-
laps going out and doing something--
Q. It would not be fair to the other men in the same line of business, if
you did that? A. :No.
Q. Will you tell me this, Mr. Cunningham, how long have you been con-
nected with the Canadian Government Merchant Marine?--A. Since its
organization.
Q. You have been running three or four years?A. 1919.
[Mr. W. A. Cunnngbam.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 167
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Now, during those three years, let us say, how many times have you
quoted a rate lower than the rate agreed upon to shippers?--A. Oh, I cannot tell
you timt.
Q. About how often--have you departed once a week from the rates you
agreed upon?--A. I cannot say that; I really cannot. That is too large a question.
Q. Has it been frequent?--A. We have frequently departed from our tariff
rates.
Q.
like to
Q.
month.
Can you give me an idea of how frequently?--A. 1NTO, I would not really
say that.
Would it be once a month?--A. I would not say it would be once a
That is, it would be monthly, but the number of nmnths involved--
oh, I would dare say it would.
Q. Would it average up once a month?---A. I think so.
Q. Would it deal with more than one shipper?--A. Oh, yes.
Q. It might deal with a number of shippers? A. Yes, but always Canadian
shippers. Mr. Caldwell knows my views on that pretty well.
Mr. CALDWELL: Yes, I think if it were not for Mr. Cunningham, we would
have been up against it worse than we were.
The CHAmAN: I am not criticizing you, Mr. Cunningham. We want the
infornation of how this thing is done.
Q. Mr. Curry gave us to understand that the rates charged upon butter,
cheese, live stock, chilled meats, apples, canned fruit, and vegetables were all
rates established after conference between the different lines?--A. No, I think
he excluded the live stock.
Q. Well, apart from live stock, you would agree with him? A. Yes. As far
as we are concerned. We feel we should follow to a certain extent the rates
that are considered satisfactory by the other lines.
Q. Have you ever taken into consideration the possibility of your regarding
yourselves as a sort of moderating force in order to insure a lower freight rate
compatible with proper business methods for the Canadian people?--A. That
is no doubt one of the reasons for the existence of the Company, to encourage
the Canadian export business, not only on the Atlantic, but particularly on the
Pacific Coast.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is there a tariff issued after this meeting, Mr. Cunningham?--A. No sir.
Q. Not a printed copy?--A. We issue our tariff.
Q. After these meetings? An agreed-upon tariff?--A. Well, naturally we
make a record, and we follow the tariff.
Q. Yrhat shape does the record take? You would get a copy of it? A.
Oh, no sir.
Q. You did not carry these things away in your mind?--A. We issue our
own. I issue nine in my own office.
By the Chairna:
Q. You do not keep any minutes of these Tuesday's meetings?--A. :No, sir.
By Mr. Sales:
Does the North Atlantic Conference issue a tariff, Mr. Cunningham?A.
Qo
They do?---A. Yes.
A printed tariff?---A. Yes.
I-Iave you one with you?--A. :No, sir.
Q. Could you supply this Committee with one?--A. I could ask the New
York office of the :North Atlantic Conference
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.|
168 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. You will ask the :New York office whether you, an employee of the
Canadian people, shall give to the Committee of the Canadian House of Com-
mons something within your knowledge? A. No, you misunderstood me. I
will ask them if they can furnish one.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You have one in your own office? A. Yes.
Q. You can forward it from your own office to this Committee?--A. If
I am instructed to, I can, yes.
The CHAm^: I will so instruct you, Mr. Cunningham.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is it not a fact that the Canadian Government merchant steamers at
Halifax lost a great deal of business due to the fact that you could not or would
not break the :New York pool rate--that is, on apples specially--and consequently
Norwegian steamers got the business at a lower rate, about two years ago?--
. No sir, that is not a fact, because we had at the time but few steamers
available for the apples, and we chartered these for apples from Nova Scotia.
Q. You did not lose any business? A. Yes, we got the business--
Q. You did not lose any business? A. I dare say we lost business.
Q. For what reason?--A. Because the :Norwegians secured it.
Q. Because you would not break the New York Atlantic pool rates? A.
No sir, excuse me. We net the rates the Norwegians were quoting.
Q. But you lost business previous to that time? A. We lost business to the
steamers who secured it before we could get it. We had three or four--I think
it was either three or four or five steamers carrying cargoes of apples.
Q. Who set your rates at that time? Was there any such thing as a New
York pool rate?--A. I do not understand that question. I do not know ]ust what
you mean by "a pool."
Q. Is there any such things as rates issued by the shipping companies
from New York, governing the ships at Halifax? A. No, sir, not necessarily
New York---
Q. Well, from any other place?---A. The rates are not different from New
York than those from Philadelphia, Baltimore or Montreal.
Q. We want to get at what outstanding influences are at work influencing
you in setting your tariff?--A. Well, so far as Canadian traffic is concerned,
we frequently give effect to rates not in effect out of the American ports. That
is as far as the Canadian traffic is concerned. That is the Canadian Govern-
ment Merchant Marine's business. That is our whole interest, and we will
not be bound by any conference.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would you like to make a statement with regard to the proposed rate
from St. John to southern United States last fall? I am not pressing it, but
if you care to make a statement-A. I do not know that there would be any-
thing I could say. Unfortunately it fell through, and I think you will bear
me out, Mr. Caldwell, that it was not on account of any rates we were asking.
I think we met the shippers in every way as to that.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. Do you carry cattle?--A. No, we will not be carrying cattle. The
construction of our boats is such that to carry any cattle we have to use the
top of the hatches, and the Government has declined to give us permission
[1'. W. A. Cunningharn.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 171
APPENDIX No. 3
of cattle on our White Star Dominion Line steamers over which I have control,
and Mr. Fetterhof in New York, that is, Mr. A. C. Fetterhof, the Freight
Traffic Manager, looks after the letting of our White Star Dominion Line space
in connection with anyone in New York. In other words, the I.M.M. Company
in New York acts as the New York office of the White Star Dominion Line,
and our traffic arrangements are handled through qo. 1 Broadway, but he has
no direct control over the space, I have the say entirely who shall get the space.
I can give some to Mr. Chambourg through our qew York office. C.M. Fetter-
hof & Company are the brokers for Mr. Chambourg. In regard to the
suggestion that Mr. Chambourg made the rates, I most emphatically deny that
statement.
By the C]airman:
Q. I think you misunderstand what the witness meant. What he meant was
that his offer or demand for so much space had the effect of raising the price.
---A. On the contrary, Mr. Chambourg is looking for the lowest rate he can get,
and we simply say that our rate is so much, and he can take it or leave it.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would you not accept a higher offer if you got it from Mr. Chambourg?
--A. qo more from him than anybody else.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. According to Mr. Campbell's evidence, Major, Mr. Chambourg acted in
this may: Here it is in the evidence. I asked the question:-
" He steps out and buys all the space for $20?" Mr. Campbell's answer
was :--
" All he can get."
Then I askcd this question:
"And deliberately raises the price?---A. Raises the rate $ on himself."
Then my next question is:
" His object then would be that he would be the only man to whom these
men having cattle could sell?"
Now that is the evidence, Major Curry. Those men stepped up and bought
up all the space at $20. That is cornering space?---A. That is absolutely
incorrect. He may have taken all the space on one or two steamers, just the
same as we would give to the others on one or two steamers, to Mr. Coghlan, to
Mr. Eastman, or to any other shipper. We have the Cornishman sailing from
Portland to-day, and she has 850 head on board, and there are three different
shippers, Mr. Chambourg is one of them. I would like to explain--I think it is
only fair--about the $15 rate hich has been referred to. That was a distress
rate. We, I believe, were the only line, interested in cattle, that carried cattle
at that low rate. We only carried it on three steamers. We had the fittings
erected; we had the cattle fittings in place where we could not put other cargo.
We had a steamer on this side of the water, and in order to get cattle when they
were not moving we quoted that distress rate.
By the Chairman:
Q. An abnormally low rate, so that your boat would not go away empty?--
A. That is right. Mr. Chambourg came in at that time very heavily. He
evidently saw he could make a big profit at that rate, and he came in heavily
on space in our next two steamers. We immediately decided, not Mr. Cham-
bourg, that the cattle business was looking up and that we would put it back to
[Mr. P. A. Curry.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 175
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Are you sure it is all American wheat?--A. East of Buffalo; Buffalo
and east.
Q. :No Canadian wheat going through Buffalo? A. There is some wheat
going through Buffalo, and being milled.
Q. In considerable quantities?---A. We have been unable to find that out.
I have made inquiries in :New York and Washington, and I cannot find the
amount of Canadian wheat that has been ground and bound by the United
States millers.
Q. You are quite prepared to be certain that the Americans do ship a flour
which contains nothing but spring wheat? A. Absolutely.
The CAXRMA: Will the witness just follow along now.
The WITNESS: We have to sell this off-grade or low-grade flour, or first
clear, as we call it, at the same price at which our American competitors are
selling in the United Kingdom market. We have, in this country, a total mill-
ing capacity of in the neighbourhood of 120,000 barrels a day. We have a total
output of around 17,000,000 barrels a year. The United States millers export
more flour, on the average, every, year, than we manufacture. Their output is
about 130 million barrels. It has been a known and accepted fact for years,
that one big milling company in Minneapolis has never turned down an export
contract. They want to keep in touch with all markets. The net result is that
we have to absorb considerable of this 18 cents on this low-grade flour.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You do not quote the American milling capacity.--A. The American
milling capacity--it is a question which is causing very much discussion; the
Government issued some figures, I have forgotten what they are, but they were
not accepted.
Q. In your Canadian figures, are you including all the small mills?--A.
'o, sir. I am including what we call the commercial mills.
By the Chairman:
Q. When you say you have to sell your low-grade flour, that you ship out-
side the country, you have to sell that for the price you can get?--A. Within
reason. We have to accept the best price we can get.
Q. And if your freight rates are too heaxw, or heavier than your American
competitor you have to charge higher for your finer grades of fiour?--A. It is
reflected back in the cost somewhere; it might come in the feeds, it might come
in reduced output and additional overhead cost, wherever we can get it.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Will you say this, that you do not export any flour to the Old Country
which is what you call the top patent?--A. :No, we ship a top patent flour to
the Old Country.
Q. And sell for less than in Canada?--A. :No, sir.
Q. That accusation has been made many times.--A. Yes, but it has never
been proven. I have thought of that question. I -knew it would come back to
me within the new year, and I have had occasion to go through the books of
one of the largest mills, who keep their accounting system absolutely separate.
Q. It has not been proved at any time?--A. I would not say that, and they
have even sold flour on the domestic market below cost, to maintain connec-
tion.
Q. I am talking about the lower British price.--A. Which Canadian price?
Q. What you are charging for it.--A. That is a very indefinite quantity.
[Mr. F. C. Cornell.]
176 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. If a big baker goes to the mills, he will get it cheaper than would a poor
but honest lawyer.--A. Mr. Sales knows that himself.
The CHhMA: IS there any other question to ask this witness?
Mr. SALES: I do not believe he is through.
The WITESS: I think I am through now.
The CHAmA: I wanted to point out how the expense, the expense of the
high ocean freight rates added to a low rate for flour may be reflected back in
the price to the Canadian consumer, the price he would have to pay for high
grade flour, or that the farmer would have to pay for bran or shorts.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. If the American millers are able to compete in the European markets,
and make you sell at less than you can sell for, why should they not compete
here?--A. In the British market--we have to put our flour in there. We have
to compete with the United States competitors. :Now, you can talk about the
British miller, and about our holding our prices in this country, to a point
where we are taking an abnormal profit from the consumer. I would tell you,
sir, that we only have the protection of 50 cents a barrel against the American
miller.
Q. And that is what makes you charge more for your flour in Canada?
A. No. If these big companies in the United States came in to corral this
market, 50 cents a barrel would not mean anything to them. If you take the
ratio of wheat to flour, we have no protection. Under our tariff, we have a
preference to flour coming in, as against wheat.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Just one question, please--
The W1TNESS: Pardon me. Primarily, we would like the same condition to
apply on Canadian flour for Canadian consumption as the United States millers
are enjoying.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. While these shipping gentlemen are here, perhaps one of them would
kindly answer a question. It was stated by Mr. Campbell that carrying wheat
at this price clearly paid the shippers. If we granted this lowering of the cost
of carrying flour to the American standard, would that reflect itself in an
increased price in carrying wheat?
:Major CvY: You ask if the rate on flour is reduced, will that result in
the rate on wheat being increased?
Q. Yes?---A. I do not think it will have any connection with it at all.
The rate on wheat is fluctuating from day to day, and the rate on flour has
fluctuated considerably. There is no connection between the two, none what-
ever.
Q. If you have to reduce your charge for carrying flour, you would have to
make it up somewhere?
Mr. DOHERTY: Or take the loss.
Mr. CvaY: We have reduced our rates on flour to 19 cents a bag, and the
rate on oatmeal is 30 cents. We 'ill take all the oatmeal we can get on that
basis. Flour is on a very preferential basis.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. A hundred of oatmeal is much bulkier than flour, but a hundred of
Canadian flour is not bulkier than a hundred of American flour.
[Mr. F. C. Cornell.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 177
APPENDIX blo. 3
Mr. CURRY: They may reduce the American rate to-morrow. They will
not let us know if they do.
Mr. DOHERTY: Mr. Chairman, is there not evidence on file in the Depart-
ment here about relative rates on grain and flour, the result of an investigation
or complaint about two years ago by the Millers' Association, when Mr. Coates
addressed the Department on this, and gave statistics and information that
showed our cost of handling flour as compared with grain? It would be a
very good thing to have to study out on the situation.
The CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Doherty, for that information.
]Vir. DOttERTY: I think I can give you reference to the time that discussion
took place, sir. August 4, 1920. The Department of Trade and Commerce
have all the records of that.
By the Chairman:
Q. There was something else you wanted to say, Mr. Cornell?--A. There
was one point mentioned by ]VIr. Cunningham, that is the fact that some Cana-
dian flour is moved via New York on a cheap rate. I had that rumour passed
to me several times. It is not anything new; this discussion between New York
and Montreal. It has becn hanging over, that I know of definitely for the last
year and a half anyway. I went to New York to investigate and I believe that
it was through misrepresentation of the product that a cheaper rate was obtained.
In other words, the brokers at New York claimed that that flour was milled in
Buffalo, or was milled in a United States mill. They got a cheap rate, but
within the last two months they have been billed back with the difference at
that time between the Canadian and United States flour, and they have had to
pay it.
This was further substantiated in a letter which I have from the Barr
Shipping Corporation, Iqew York, dated March 5th, in which they say:--
"It has recently developed that some brokers have been making
bookings with steamship companies of flour that they claim to be United
States origin and thus obtain United States flour rates. Apparently this
deception has been made in an endeavour to deceive the steamship com-
panies into believing that flour originated in the United States and thus
entitled to that rate. However, as you are aware, all shipments of flour
from Canada to United States for export comes in bond and steamship
companies are obliged to certify to the collector of customs at port of
exit that all in bond shipments have actually been exported, otherwise
customs officials will require consignees to pay duty. When steamship
companies are asked to certify to these export affidavits, the), immediately
check up to ascertain whether flour was loaded aboard steamer and then
learn whether same was declared as of United States or Canadian origin.
"There have been a number of instances of this nature recently and
steamship companies immediately call upon the shippers to reinburse
them for the difference in the ocean rates as they claim shippers are a
party to the subterfuge in accepting contract knowing that lower rate has
been procured by deceptive means. We have been very careful not to
place any of our shippers in this position, and while we are personally
against the practice of differentiating between Canadian and United
States flour, at the same time, we are endeavouring to procure the lower
rates by lawful means and thus avoid jeopardizing the interests of our
" " principals.
"As stated, we are in position to offer you lower rates to London and
Liverpool on United States avigation stea.mers, but as.ur e you that the
"[Mr. F. C. Cornel].]
--12
178 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Cunard, International Mercantile Marine, Furness Withy & Co., etc.,
will not knowingly, accept contracts covering Canadian flour at United
States flour rate. As a matter of fact the Cunard Line are commanding
that brokers specifiy on the contract the origin of the flour."
By the Chairman:
Q. Does that mean the American boats take from our boats? A. I think
the United States steamers and the Riordan Smith are one and the same thing.
Q. Where did tlis letter come from? A. The Barr Shipping Company,
New York.
Q. Do you know what sort of people they are? A. They are in the same
class as Lunham & Moore.
Q. Have you any doubt about the correctness of the statement?--A. I have
absolutely none. I verified it myself.
Q. You went to New York yourself? A. Yes.
Q. You found out that what they say is correct, from your own investiga-
tion?--A. From my own investigation, and from my own knowledge as gained
in several ways.
The Witness discharged.
The Committee adjourned until Friday, March 16th, 1923.
House OF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE ROOM 424,
FRmAY, March 16, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural Conditions
throughout Canada met in executive session at 3.30. Mr. McMaster, the Chair-
man, presiding.
The CI-IAIRIIAI: Before we start the work which I outlined yesterday, I
wish to bring these facts before the Committee. After the meeting was over
yesterday, Mr. Caldwell got into communication with Mr. Cunningham, who was
examined. You will remember that I had asked Mr. Cunningham a question,
practically in these words: "You did not keep minutes of the meetings of the
representatives of the steamships?" to which he answered, "No, sir." In his
conversation with Mr. Caldwell, Mr. Cunningham said that he thought that I
was asking him the question personally, and that he had not personally kept
the minutes, but that minutes had been kept.
Mr. SALES: That is, of those Tuesday meetings?
The CHAmMA: Of those regular Tuesday afternoon meetings. I there-
fore took it upon myself to wire Mr. Cunningham this morning in these words:
"W. A. CUNNINGHAM,
General Freight Agent,
Canadian Government Merchant Marine,
Montreal, P.Q.
Yesterday, in your examination, I asked you the following question:
'You did not keep minutes of the meetings of the representative of the
steamships?' to which you answered, 'No, sir.' I am informed that your
[Mr. F. C. Cornell.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 179
APPENDIX No. 3
answer was predicated on the assumption that I was referring to you per-
sonally. Such not the case, my desire being to find out whether minutes
were kept. Please wire immediately who kept minutes, and in whose
possession such minutes are.
A. R. McMASTER, Chairman."
Just a little while ago I received this answer.
"A. R. McMAsTER, M.P.,
OTTAV'A.
Yours date. Your information is correct, that in answering yesterday
regarding minutes of meetings I construed it to mean a personal matter.
There is no permanent chairman or secretary, but usually representative
in whose office meeting is held acts as the chairman and makes up memo
of proceedings. Canadian Government Merchant Marine representatives
attend on invitation from lines, and never act as chairman. Therefore
they never made up any minutes.
W. A. CUNNINGHAM."
You will note, gentlemen, that Mr. Cunningham does not answer my ques-
tion as to where these minutes are, in whose possession these minutes are, and he
says that the representative at whose office the meeting is held acts as chairman
and makes up a memorandum.
Discussion followed.
The CnmtnN: I see that Dr. Grisdale has arrived, and perhaps we might
ask him to give the figures which he has in connection with Mr. Robinson's
resolution in regard to the Federal Grant to the provinces under the Agricul-
tural Instruction Act.
Dr. GRISDALE: I may say that the amount on which these figures are based
is not $900,000, but a much larger amount.
The CHnmtnN: The proportion would be the same.
Dr. GRISDALE: Yes, the proportion would be the same. So that it does not
make any difference.
Mr. CALDWELL: What are the figures based on?
Dr. GIISDALE: On one million and a quarter dollars.
Mr. Rouiso: On what population?
Dr. GIISDALE: I have the figures for both here, the rural population and the
total population.
Mr. louiso: What was the unit.
Dr. GRISDALE: I think it was 5.000 of a population. That we took as
excluded from rural population. I will give you the exact figures and then you
can figure them down to the $900,000. It will just be about two-thirds.
Mr. RouISON: Which are you giving us first?
Dr. GRISDALE: I will give the basis of the total population to begin with.
Alberta .............................. 91 747
British Columbia ........................ 83 959
Manitoba ............................ 94 388
New Brunswick ........................ 67 291
Nova Scotia ............................ 83 869
Ontario .............................. 377 688
Prince Edward Island .................... 30 804
Quebec .............................. 307 890
Saskatchewan .......................... 112,359
84 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. I suppose the ship always charges the lowest figure does it?---A. :No, it
does not.
Q. :Now, Mr. Cunningham, along with this Commodity List :No. 21 are 23
pages of typewritten matter, which pages contain what?---A. That is a type-
written copy of the tariff you have accepted or asked about as in Exhibit :No. 4.
I was instructed to make a copy of that tariff, and that is a copy of it.
Q. Are you sure you are correct? A. Yes, sir. You will find the type-
written copies are duplicates of this tariff.
Q. Have you a copy for your own use? A. Yes.
Q. You can lea'e both these with the Committee?---A. Yes.
Q. All right, we -ill put them all together. After these rates are established,
these lists are circulated to all the lines that are connected with the :Nortl:
Atlantic Conference? A. Yes.
Q. Then they are to maintain these rates mentioned in the schedules; am ]
right in that?--A. Yes, until there is some reason for a change in the rate.
Q. Who decides about the reason for a change; does the individual steamship
line, or does the Conference decide that? A. So far as the Canadian Government
Merchant Marine is concerned, we come to our own decisions, and as I stated last
Thursday, in sitting in at these meetings we reserve the right to ihdependent
action.
Q. But other people who are not actuated with such a high regard for the
public interest, how do they behave, Mr. Cunningham?--A. As I understand it.
last Thursday, a more or less similar condition existed. I do not know that I
am competent to answer that question.
Q. Well now, hIr. Cunningham, you have been connected with the Cana-
dian Government Merchant Marine since its inception, have you not?--A. Yes.
Q. And you have been attending these regular Tuesday afternoon meetings,
with considerable regularity? A. Yes.
Q. You are the General Freight Agent of the Canadian Government
Merchant Marine since when?---A. Really I am Traffic Manager.
Q. It does not make much difference, anyway. However, you are the
Traffic h/Ianager?---A. Yes.
Q. Is there much difference between General Freight Agent or Chief Freight
Agent and Traffic Manager?---A. :Not in my case.
Q. Anyway you are familiar with the situation?---A. Yes
Q. Tell us this, Mr. Cunningham; is it not true that Exhibit :No. 4 contains
the rates which the lines undertake to maintain?--A. Yes, until there is a change.
Q. Of course until there is a change. A loyal citizen undertakes to obey the
law until there is a change in that law?---A. Yes, but there may be a change made
at any t.ime.
Q. By whom? A. By the lines.
Q. After consultation with the Conference?--A. Yes, sir, on certain com-
modities on which the rates show opposite conditions.
Q. What is done then? A. It is decided whether or not a change is
warranted.
Q. Who decides? A. The meeting of the Conference.
Q. The Conference decides?--A. It is always subject to indi'idual actioti,
though.
Q. Let us suppose that after these rates were established a line wished to
make a reduction to a ship, the line that wished to make the reduction would
refer the matter to the Conference, would it not?--A. Yes, in the usual course.
Q. And the Conference would take the matter up? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And discuss it?--A. Yes. Possibly it would not be discussed, but the
opinion of the other members would be asked. It would not necessarily follow
[Mr. W. A. Chmnlngham.]
186 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Will you describe them to us; tell us who they are?---A. The steamship
companies operating out of the Gulf of Mexico.
Q. So that in reality this is a dependent or general agreement, it does not
apply to Montreal or New York, it exends to the Gulf and how much farther?
--A. It does to a certain extent, but to a very limited extent.
By the Cairman:
Q. Well, to what extcnt?--A. It is simply the same as we ourselves work
under in connection with the :North Atlantic Conference, there is an agreement
as to the general conditions which constitute fair rates.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Are fair rates the cost of operation plus a reasonable profit?--A. Yes.
Unfortunately there is not such a thing to-day in tcamship rates, in a very large
number of eases.
Q. Or is it rather what the traffic will stand--as much as we can get?--A.
That is true to-day in connection with a large number of these companies; what
the traffic will stand apparcntly is not in my handling.
hlr. SALES: All right, Mr. Chairman; I have nothing further for the
moment.
By the Chairmn:
Q. Before I leave this part of the subject, Mr. Cunningham, I think you
said that there had recently come out in New York a still later list?--A. Yes.
Q. Later than Exhibit :No. 4?--A. Yes. I do not really believe that it will
show any changes from this issue here, because as a rule when we get so many
supplements to a tariff that it becomes cumbersome, naturally a re-issue is made.
Q. It is something like a re-consolidation of laws; when laws have been
amended a great deal, they issue a consolidation?A. I have in mind something
like the issue of a railway tariff-
Q. I notice, Mr. Cunningham, a number of supplements; the last supple-
ment I have in my hand is dated at New York, March 8th, 1923, supplement No.
34 of Commodity List, and it contains some phrases of which I will ask an
explanation from you to the Committee, or the effect of which I will ask you to
explain to the Committee. First of all it says " Effective March 8th, 1923."
That means that it would come into effect on that day?--A. Yes.
Q. "Special rate for five-day period in effect March 9th for quoting through
March 14th," and so on. What does that mean?--A. That means that the
person quoting that rate for five days would be considered at :New York, and
that that arrangement was put into effect.
Q. It would only be running for five days?--A. Yes.
Q. I see a number of uncertain items. I see " Open through April," " Open
through June ". What does that mean? A. It means that there is no agree-
ment as to the rates on these commodities up to that time, that conditions were
such that it was felt that the lines should use their ]udgment as to the rate of
freight that they would accept.
Q. That there were no binding prices during that period? A. :No, sir.
Q. It says that the Supplement :No. 33 was not a complete new commodity
list, that it was in course of preparation and that it was expected to be issued
next week?--A. Yes.
Q. That is, the list you have lust referred to? A. Yes.
Q. When you get it, Mr. Cunningham, will you kindly send a copy to the
Clerk, as we would like to be able to compare it with this list which you
produce? A. Yes, sir.
[Mr. W. A. Ctmningham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION 187
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Have you had any correspondence with the North Atlantic Conference?---
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you got it with you?--A. Yes, sir.
Mr. CALDWELL: I would suggest that you should have had these docu-
ments in order to go over them.
The CrAmMAN: That is my fault, Mr. Caldwell. Mr. Cunningham came
to me this morning, but I did not have time to go over them, so he is not to
blame. I was at a Committee, so it is not the fault of the witness; he came
and told me he had all these things, this morning.
Mr. SALES: I notice that some of these tariff supplements bear different
dates, Mr. Cunningham; one is dated January 4th, which was presented at the
monthly meeting on January 4th; another bears date January 6th, another
February 6th, another March 2nd, March 3rd, March 8th, March 9th, March
]3th and March 15. That is apparently the date on which they were sent
out from New York?---A. Yes.
Q. They would be received by you in the course of a few days? A. Yes.
Q. When you receive one of these supplements, do you get together in one
of these friendly gatherings of yours and discuss the recent communication?--
A. No, sir.
Q. You accept the rates as sent to you without question? A. Yes.
Q. And act for them in the New York Conference?--A. You must remem-
ber that the Canadian lines including ourselves sit in in connection with these
rates.
Q. Sit in where? A. At the New York meetings.
Q. Do you meet and send your representatives down? A. Yes.
Q. You elect your delegates, practically?---A. Possibly. All the Canadian
lines will be represented, that is, they are always privileged to sit in.
Q. Have you been down to the Atlantic Conference?--A. Yes.
Q. And sat in on it? A. Yes.
Q. And agreed to it?--A. Yes.
Q. So that is how these things are arranged? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Not with every one of these alterations?--A. Some of them.
Q. You were not present at every one of these alterations?--A. No, sir.
There were a good many of these affecting United States commodities, which
we naturally were not interested in.
Q. All of these affect your own rates out of Montreal?--A. No, because all
the commodities do not move to Montreal; for instance, there is one that comes
to my mind, namely, asphalt. I think you will find a rate in there; it has a
local to a certain point, and we would not be interested in what the rate was on it.
The CHAIRMAI: May I ask a question, if you are finished?
Mr. SZES: One of these sheets contains a whole lot of things; it is dated
March 2nd, Commodity List :No. 21, envelope paper, provisions, meat, and so
on, down to parafine wax. There is also one on January 6th, consolidating all
previous supplements, and contains about everything. So that they really deal
with the commodities out of Montreal?---A. Yes.
Q. On February 6th I see cotton, cottonseed oil, lumber, pine logs, rice,
resin and tar. I do not find anything dealing with Montreal.--A. We do not
get any cotton out of Montreal.
Q. I see cotton, lumber, and sawn timber? A. Yes.
Q. Resin? A. I don't know of any resin.
Q. Turpentine? A. No, sir; we might, but I do not know of any.
Q. I see it is New York that sets our rates, as far as I can understand it?--
A. Not as far as Canadian traffic is concerned.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 191
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. The rate of Canadian flour is settled in Montreal and advice given to
the secretary at New York and then they accept that rate and insert it in their
list of rates.--A. This is for their guidance.
Mr. SALES: There is something of interest on the outside of this: " Com-
modities marked " g ": Gulf and South Atlantic have initiative in rate making.
Commodities marked "n " on list, all lines have initiative in rate making.
Commodities not marked " not all Atlantic lines" have initiative in rate
making. Commodities marked " p," all lines may quote on a parity basis."
What does that mean?--A. Those are the only three districts, the North
Atlantic, the South Atlantic, and the Gulf.
Q. What is a parity basis?---A. Parity is a rate on which a particular dis-
trict is more interested as regards geographical location.
Q. Well it means it mu.-_'t bear some relation to the other. The values can-
not come in. Does it mean that you shall not be below them or you must be
equal?--A. So long as the rates arc in the tariff it is naturally assumed we do
not quote below that tariff rate. That really refers to United States traffic
altogether.
Q. But " marked p, all lines may quote on a parity basis." I wish you
would try and define that to mc so that I can understand it. Flour is mared
" p." It says " all lines may quote on a parity basis."A. So far as that goes,
all lines are quite at liberty to make their rates on flour.
Q. Any price they like?---A. Yes.
By Mr. Ceddwell:
Q. Parity means on a p,r.--A. At the same time the flour rate can be made
by the individual lines.
Mr. SALES: If parity means equal, all lines may quote on an equal basis?
--A. May quote on an equal basis.
Q. So that you have no freedom even there.--A. Absolute freedom.
By Mr. McMaster:
Q. I think in answer to a telegram I sent you you stated there was no regular
chairman or secretary of your Liner Committee in Montreal.A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are.you right about that or have you not forgotten? A. I know what
you were going to refer to, Mr. Chairman. In wiring you that I was quite
correct in saying there was no permanent chairman. For the purpose of consist-
ency perhaps you might say, some time ago :Mr. Marlow was requested to be
the mouthpiece for directing communications to the :New York Secretary so that
he would not be getting a letter perhaps one week from one man and perhaps
from another man the new week, and in that way Mr. Marlow is considered the
representative who looked after the correspondence with Mr. :Morse and who
would receive the correspondene from him. Then he distributes it.
Q.. Did you give any name to this mouthpiece, any title? A. For the pur-
pose of communication with New York we called him the permanent chairman.
Q. Do you think I could have the authority of it from the telegram you sent
me?--A. I did not have an opportunity to bring that up. I wanted to explain it.
Of course there was absolutely no intention whatever--
Q. The telegram was like the freight rates, subject to further change? A.
When I sent that telegram I had not thought of that particular feature or other-
wise I would have explained it to you then. A permanent chairman would be
the man who would sit at all the meetings as chairman, and this is not the case.
Q. When you were in Mr. Curry's office, Mr. Curry did sit as chairman?--
A. Yes, usually. There are times it may not have been so but that is the general
practice.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.l
192 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. And when you are in Reford & Co's office Mr. Coates sits as chairman?--
A. There must be his office record of the meeting.
Q. I would like to direct your attention to this, Mr. Cunningham--it touches
very closely on our investigation. On page 16 of the copy which you have pre-
pared I read as follows: "The North Atlantic U. K. Freight Company, 8 Bridge
St., :New York, March 22, 1923, "the rates in refrigerator list are effective to
December 31 1923, except as may be noted, and apply for seaboard shipment,
unless otherwise stated. For ordinary stowage rates see commodity list. Apples
in barrels $1.50 per bbl." What were they last year, do you remember? A. I
think $1.75.
Q. So you have come down then?mA. Yes.
Q. Apples in boxes must be strapped or wired or guarantee given, 55 cents
a box." Is that a rise or a lower rate? A. That is a reduction.
Q. From what?---A. From memory I would say 65 cents. Those cancelled
tariffs will show all that.
Q. Berries in barrels each $1.50 per hundred pounds. Butter $1.50 per hun-
tired pounds."
Mr. CALD'VELL: $1.40 on this one.
The CHAmMA: $1.50 here.---A. I think you will find the supplement later
than that bring it to $1.40.
Q. Later on, on March 21, 1923.--A. I think it was changed later on.
That I think you will see.
Q. Can you find out, because it is interesting to us to know what rates are
applicable to these agricultural products just at the very moment. Butter
$1.50. Now meats, cranberries, pears, plums, vegetables, all these are governed
by the refrigerator list No. 3.---A. Yes.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. I would like to ask what effect the tramp steamers have on rates, setting
of freight rates, or have they any?--A. They have an effect on cargo lots. They
would not have an effect on what we call parcel lots because the tramps would
not be interested in them.
Q. I have before me a copy of a telegram dated :New Orleans, January 6,
to the effect that there are no tramp steamers apparently offering for public grain
either on the North Atlantic or the Gulf:
The Rate Committee would add to the foregoing, as a matter of information,
that there are no tramp steamers apparently offering for February grain, either
from the North Atlantic or Gulf. The prospects therefore are favourable for
an advance in the present rates from the North Atlantic, and it is recommended
that if each Line would endeavour to secure part of their requirements at not
less than 3s. 6d., it would soon develop that 4s., or even higher, could be obtained
for the balance of their February room."
A. That is from the Gulf.
Q. It includes the whole of the Atlantic ocean.
Mr. McMAswg: Where did that memorandum come from.
Mr. HAMEL,: :New Orleans.A. That is the Gulf information as to the
market condition. The rates on grain to-day that are obtainable by the Liners
are absolutely below cost and can only take grain in order to give us the dead
weight. If we can get any other cargo we don't take grain.
Q. I presume that the owner did not sit in at this conference and when
they are in the market they have a decidedly better result in rates? A. That
is a full cargo proposition.
Mr. McMAswEI: That is the correspondence without other lines?mA. Yes.
[Mr. W. A. Cuzmingham.]
196 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You might make that plain to any members of the Committee who did
not know what that means.--A. That is 1,980 superficial feet. Without know-
ing personally about that meeting, I would say that that was simply an adjust-
ment to a shilling basis, as against a rate per hundred pounds.
By the Chairman:
Q. Here is a note of a meeting held at 9 p.m. on February 6th, 1920, and I
wish to excerpt this:-
"The advisability of having a minimum grain rate of 40 cents on
heavy and 50 cents on oats was fully discussed. Mr. Wood agreeing on
behalf of the Services to hold for these rates, provided other lines did the
same."
That would be after discussion of the matter, no doubt, with the grain interests,
and I have every reason to think that the decision was arrived at, that it was a
fair basis.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Are the grain interests represented at these Tuesday afternoon meetings?
---A. No, sir, this is a steamship meeting.
Q. These discussions, where they decided to charge this rate, that decision
was arrived at the Tuesday afternoon meeting? A. I really cannot say as to
that; whatever the record shows, but we had different consulations with the
grain men as to market conditions, not only in the United Kingdom, but also as
to the conditions within the United States.
Q. My point is this. From the reading of that minute, would you not gather
that they expected to have a struggle, and that they should stick together? It
did not look to me like a general agreement with the people they were handling
the product for.
The CAmM..: I take it from the reading of the minutes that Mr. Wood,
after having discussed the matter with--I was going to say his competitors, but
that would be the vrong 'ord--with his associates in the same line of business,
decided they would hold out and refused to reduce the rate lower than what it
was at that time.
Mr. C,.LWEL: It did not look like an agreement between the shippers
and the others.
The WTE.S: May I say that is quite the case, insofar as the decision at
that time would be concerned. :No doubt the conditions appeared to warrant
that rate, and it was always, I take it, subject to a revision. There is no ques-
tion about it that the Canadian Government Merchast Marine are expected
to operate the service on a commercial basis, and naturally they must look to
securing rates on freight that will at least pay expenses.
By t},c Cltairma:
Q. Mr. Cunningham, am I right in concluding that there was practically
every week a meeting held of this committee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that this file which you have been good enough to produce con-
tains the minutes of nearly all of these meetings? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I do not want to go over every one, it would be tiresome and
would take too long, but I will o over to another year.
Mr. CALWELI: GO over to the time when Mr. Cunningham was a repre-
sentative from the Canadian Government Merchant Marine at these meetings;
I take it you were not the representative in 19207 A. I was at some of them,
I have no doubt, but in the early part perhaps I was not.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 197
APPENDIX No. 3
By tle Clairman:
Q. Mr. Cunningham, you were in attendance at these meetings as early
as June 8, 1920, as early as April 27, 1920; in fact, ]Ir. Cunningham, you are
almost--not quite but almost--one of the charter members of this conference or
committee?
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Have you any idea how long this has bccn in operation?--A. No, sir.
Q. No idea at all?--A. I have no knowledge beyond the time I have been
connected with the Canadian Government Merchant Marine.
By tb(: Chairman,:
Q. Have the men in Montreal, the steamship men in Montreal, not been
getting together from time to time for years in past, just in the manner or
almost exactly in the manner which is outlined in these minutes?--A. I cannot
say.
Q. What were you doing before you went into the steamship business?---
A. I wa. transferred to Montreal in April, 1919.
Q. There were you before? A. In Italifax.
Q. The :Nova Scotians do not do anything like-that? A. I have been in
other places too. I was in Montreal previous to that time with the Canadian
National Railways.
Q. Had you never heard of these regular meetings held from week to week
or from time to time, by the steamship people?---A. No, sir, not at that time.
Q. We will go to the )-ear 1920. " Grain rates." Mr. Lockwood--he
represents the Cunard-Anchor-Donaldson and Thomson Lines, that is the Reford
Company?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. " Mr. Lockwood proposed making April rate on wheat 7 shillings,
same as March rate. Committee. felt that this should not be done at
present, as any reduction should affect the flour rate, and it was con-
sidered advisable to wait the decision of the United States Shipping
Board regarding rate they might propose on oats and produce."
You were present at that meeting, I see. The next head is " Monthly
Freight Meeting." The chairman was requested to send the following telegram
to Mr. S. E. Morse:--
"At meeting to-day, Canadian Liners Committee suggest postpone
monthly meeting called for February 3rd, and that meeting be suggested
to call after receive decision from Shipping Board on grain and oat pro-
ducts rates."
That would be a telegram to the North Atlantic Conference?--A. Yes, sir.
Mr. SALES: At any rate, I must infer that at the time of the meeting of the
:North Atlantic Conference the suggestion was made in a telegram that the rate
be changed.
By the Chairman:
Q. Now, Mr. Cunningham, no doubt the question of rates was discussed at
the North Atlantic Conference, was it not?--A. What date is that?
Q. Will you answer the question first, and I will tell you the question after-
wards?--A. I would like to say that grain rates had been discussed at the time
they were shown in the tariff, but I do not think they have been discussed within
the last year. You are speaking about New York, are you not?
IMx. w. ,. Cumgham.]
198 " SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. I am asking this question, and I will put it in this form. During the
time you have been associated with the Canadian Government Merchant Marine,
have grain rates been settled in New York?--A. Settled at the New York meet-
ings, to some extent.
Q. They have been?--A. They have been, but not all the time.
Q. I did not say that. I quote now from the minutes of the meeting of
February 22, 1921: "Grain rates--April May--Chairman was instructed to write
Mr. Morse, to docket this for discussion at the next New York meeting." I will
also read this extract from the same minutes:
"Agricultural Implements. It was reported by the Canadian Gov-
ernment Merchant Marine that implements had been accepted by a line
operating from Jacksonville, Florida, to London at $15 per ton before the
new rates became effective. Mr. Morse developed from Mr. Murphy
United States Shipping Board Washington that the above was substan-
tially correct but offered no further explanation. The chairman was
therefore instructed to write Mr. Morse to have the matter docketed for
discussion at the March New York meeting."
A. That would be a case where we were looking after the interests of the Can-
adian exporters, in that we.always insisted upon being in a position to quote as
favourable rates.
Q. That is to say, some cheap fellow from Jacksonville, Florida, was carry-
ing agricultural implements cheaper than the North Atlantic U. K. Conference
was doing; is that right?--A. I think what that indicates is that another line
was offering a lower rate before we .were quoting a lower rate.
Q. You wished to be in a position to give as cheap transportation rates to
our manufacturers of agricultural implements as that gentleman who was oper-
ating out of Jacksonville, Florida; that was your intention?--A. That was one of
the main reasons why we agreed to sit in at the meeting, in order to keep in
touch with conditions and so on.
Q. With that sole laudable intention, you did not know what to do until
New York had discussed the matter?--A. No, sir; as a matter of courtesy the
changes of rates are not put out immediately. Each line is given an opportunity
of being advised; for instance, it is probably made for the benefit of the Montreal
lines, because on account of the distance the advice has to be sent by telegram,
and the representatives of the Canadian lines at :Nexv York naturally, after
sitting in at a meeting, have to get time, so sufficient time is allowed for them
to get home.
Q. :Mr. Cunningham, does this resolution not show that the Canadian
Government Merchant Marine was not free on account of its associations with
these other lines to quote for agricultural implements without reference to any-
body else's rate, which would have been a competitive rate with this transpor-
tation interest operating out of Jacksonville, Florida?--A. No, sir, that is not
the case for the Canadian Government Merchant Marine any more than any
other of the Canadian lines.
Q. I would infer that. but the point I want to make, and I think the point
is made by this resolution--and if I am wrong in my interpretation you will be
given ample opportunity to correct it--I take it from this resolution that it
appears that a man or a steamship company was quoting a rate on agricultural
implements from Jacksonville, Florida, of $15 per ton, and that that rate was
below the rate which the Canadian lines were quoting for a similar service; is
that not right?--A. No, sir. I will explain it in this way, that apparently with-
out knowing and without remembering all the details, without having the ariffs
to determine it, there probably was a change in the rate on agricultural imple-
[Mr. W. A. Cunniagham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 199
APPENDIX No. 3
merits on a certain date, to be effective as from say tle next day, and tim com-
plaint is tlat tlmt Gulf line lad quoted a new rate before tle time float tle rate
was to be effective.
Q. But you could not go out and quote a rate which would compete against
tle Jacksonville, Florida, rate before tle matter lad been discussed in New
York?--A. That was the result of the discussion in New York; as I say, it was
a change that was no doubt agreed to in New York.
Q. You learned of the $15 per ton rate, and tlaen because of the $15 per
ton rate you asked that the matter should be docketed for discussion at the next
meeting at New York?---A. In sending a request for a discussion, the request
would be as to why the Galveston line changed this rate.
Q. Let me read this to you: " It was reported by the Canadian Govern-
ment Merchant Marine "-
Mr. SALES: What is the date of that minute?
The CAmMAN: February 22nd, 1921.
"Agricultural Implements. It was reported by tle Canadian Government
Merchant Marine tlat implements had been accepted by a line operating from
Jacksonville, Florida, to London, at $15 per ton before tle new rates became
effective. Mr. Morse developed from Mr. Murply United States Shipping
Board Washington that the above was substantially correct but offered no fur-
ther explanation. The Chairman was therefore instructed to write Mr. Morse
to lmve tle matter docketed for discussion at the Marcl New York meeting."
Mr. CALDWELL: What date does it say in New York?
WNESS: I think I made my point there in those very words " before the
rate became effective."
By the Chairman:
Q. Your idea then would be this, that the rate may have after discussion
been brought down to $15 per ton, but that this gentleman from Jacksonville,
Florida, had anticipated the rate and had acted in a manner lacking in courtesy
to the otler gentlemen who were in the steamship arrangement? A. Yes, that
is substantially the case, only I would go farther than that and say that no
doubt the rate had been agreed to by all the lines at New York, with a certain
effective date, but the party in the South had anticipated tlmt date.
Mr. SALES: What is the date?
The CHAmMAN: February 22rid.
Mr. SLES: Of what year?
The CHAIRMAN: 1921.
Mr. Mvo: Why was not the explanation given there which Mr. Cunning-
ham has given now?
The CHAIRMAN: That is just a memorandum of the discussion which took
place; no doubt they had discussed it together.
Mr. CALDWELL: Can you remember the date in 19217
The CnN: We can look up the tariffs.
Mr. CADWELL: Look up the date and give it to us.
Mr. Mvno: Look up the record 'of these meetings in March, and see if
you find any reference to it. That might explain the situation.
The CmN: Here we are. This is March 1st, 1921:-
"Agricultural Implements. Dealing with the complaint of Mr. Cun-
ningham that the U. S. Shipping Board had been accepting $15.00 per
ton on this traffic from Jacksonville, Florida, to London, it was noted
[Mr. W. A. Ctmningham.]
200 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
that the matter was up for consideration at the :New York Conference
meeting to be held March 3rd, and no further action was called from
here."
Mr. CALDWELL: That would be nine days after the reference was made to
the :New York meeting.
The CHAmMA: Here is an interesting thing to hop growers:--
"Hops. Reference was made by Mr. Cunningham to complaint
received by him from Mr. A. C. Fetterhof, International Mercantile
Marine Company, :New York, of his having made a booking of hops at
$2.25 the rate being $3.00. It was explained that the error arose through
Mr. Frieser in Mr. Cunningham's absence from the :New York Conference
meeting on February 8th having omitted to make the necessary correction
in draft of rates which he was preparing for Mr. Cunningham, and Mr.
Frieser having been called from the Committee :Room at the time the
matter was under discussion."
A. That was simply an unintentional error on the part of Mr. Frieser. We
acted upon it in good faith.
Q. And you were being rapped over the knuckles at this meeting because
you had quoted too low a rate, and your excuse was that Mr. Frieser was out
of the room and had made a mistake?---A. I would like to say "reason" instead
of "excuse." It was quite--
Q. Quite in the usual course of events?--A. Quite in the usual course of
events. We are not in any way trying to intimate that we were not sitting in
with the :North Atlantic Conference. We were sitting in there as representatives
of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, but we reserved for the benefit
of Canada and Canadian products the ight of independent action.
Q. But your sitting in brings about a certain implication of honour, that
you are to maintain the rates if you possibly can?--A. Subject to notice to the
Conference of our intention to make a change.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. They all sit in with the same understanding?--A. I do not know that.
Q. Is your position any different from any other member of the Conference,
that you know of?---A. I would like to say this, that I do not know under what
conditions other members become members, because we are probably the
youngest. I have never seen any rules, as far I know.
Q. Under what conditions did you become a member?---A. I do not know the
conditions. I suppose we felt that in the interests of the Canadian Government
Merchant Marine and of Canadian exporters we should be in a position to be in
touch with what others were doing, so as to protect the Canadian exporters.
Q. But under what conditions did you loin this "pink tea" association?--
A. Just for that reason, if we were not in touch with that what others were
doing, it would be difficult for us to properly maintain the equity of the rates.
Q. But you do not know the conditions under which the others joined; there
must be some condition under which you joined. What understanding did you
have when you first joined the association?--A. The understanding was that we
would sit in with them and make rates where they were considered fair, but as
far as Canadian exporters were concerned we would always have a free hand to
make reductions or increases, if considered warranted in the interests of the
exporters, subject of course to notice to the Conference members.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Cunningham, I turn now to some further minutes of the 22nd of
March, 1921, and I find the following:--
lMt. w. A. Omaihal
202 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Was not this the situation, that there were at that time a number of
tramp steamers coming to the St. Lawrence and offering to carry Canadian
produce at rates considerably lower than the Canadian and British lines running
to Montreal and from Montreal were willing to offer or able to offer, on account
of their association with the North Atlantic Conference, and before you could
meet that competition you had to ask the gracious permission of the North
Atlantic Conference to enable you to do so; is that not the fact?--A. No, sir.
The way I reason it out is this; that our rates were at that time considered to be
fair rates, but that when the full cargo situation came before us in the way of
reduced rates, we felt that in order to secure the necessary quantities of grain
and lumber we shouhl have a free hand to make the rates on the basis of the
tramp rates. We did not want to reduce these rates, because they were already
down practically to living costs; it was not with any intention of shutting out
the tramps.
Q. Were the rates on wood ever confirmed by the North Atlantic Con-
ference?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why would they have to be confirmed by the North Atlantic Conference;
I thought you had the right to make your own rates as far as wood products
were concerned?--A. Only deals, deal luznber.
Q. Is not " lumber" a much broader term than deals?--A. Well, deals are
considered more or less of a Canadian product.
Q. But as far as other forest products were concerned, you had to have the
concurrence of :New York before you could establish rates?--A. No more than
that we were members together.
Q. You were all members one of another? A. That was the agreement.
For instance, take oak or mahogany, that is not a very large export commodity
from Canada, but it is from the United States.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. What class of lumber is included in deals; what size, what dimension
of lumber is called deals?--A. 2 by 4.
Q. That is dimension lumber, it is not inch boards?--A. No.
Q. Nor lath or shingles?--A. No. There is in connection with deals a
limit of dimension, and then boards on account of their more expensive cost of
handling, take a higher basis.
Q. But boards are not called deals?--A. Boards are not called deals; any-
thing under two inches is not.
Q. And anything over two inches is?--A. Yes. I am wondering whether I
am correct in that or not. I think it is everything over two inches. You will
come across the definition of a deal among those papers there.
Q. :My idea was that it was everything over three inches?--A. 3 by 9,
perhaps it is 3 inches by 9 inches in width; that can easily be settled there. You
can come across it.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. All the quotations here are dated New York?--A. These are dated New
York by the Secretary, who is located in :New York.
Q. Mr. Sidney E. Morse?--A. Yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Cunningham, I want your observations upon these interesting
telegrams that passed on the 23rd of April from your Committee and the answer
received. I will read them to you, and you will make some observations upon
them. They are found in the minutes of April 23rd, 1921:--
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
204 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. I am not saying, Mr. Cunningham, that there is not an arguable ease
on your side of the question, but shouldn't this phase of the situation be con-
sidered? There was the American Government forcing their Shipping Board to
reduce rates on eereals?--A. That was in the United States.
Q. In our country we find our ship owners protesting, naturally enough,
against being forced to meet this competition and we find our Government
institutions combining with the other lines to maintain rates. Does that situation
not constitute, whatever sound principles it may be based upon,--does it not
constitute a prejudice to our actual produeers?---A. No. sir, not if the rates were
maintained on an equality from all ports and from both countries. We considered
that the proposed rates on the cereal was unwarranted.
Q. Your view is that if the rates had not been reduced all around, everybody
would be in the same position as before.--A. Naturally.
Q. Does it not seem to you a little strange that the Government of one
country should be urging reductions of rates and the Government of another
country, which is a competitor of this country, urging maintenance of rates?--A.
That was a condition brought about by the action of the United States Govern-
ment in connection with wheat vs. flour.
Q. Now I see in the mintues of the Tuesday meeting of May 3Ist, I92I,
warfage on cattle, all lines agreed to "23e. per head on cattle and 3e. per head
on sheep, to cover wharfage on live stock and feed, also shipping masters' fees.
If warfage paid by railways lines to only collect I3e. per head on cattle and 2e.
per head on sheep (hold up the above quotations until official notice is received
from shipping federation that agreement has been made with cattle shippers."
That was agreed to by all the friends present at this meeting, and it must have
been a large one. There were I0 people present?---A. It was simply adopted
as a means of simplifying the collection of wharfage for the I-Iarbour Board. In
other words, instead of obligating each cattle shipper to make a supplement
direct we simply collected the equivalent amount and paid it in in a lump sum.
There was no profit made by any steamship company.
Q. The next item is one of interest to the rates on cattle. "All members
present affirm that they were not quoting less than $40.00 per head." This was
on May 31st, 1921. Why would that be put in?--A. I suppose the question came
up. Each Line was asked what they were quoting.
Q. I should say that there was some hint that some fellow was not as
courteous as he should be to the others and was quoting less on that?--A. I don't
know.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. With regard to wharfage did I understand you to read there was a differ-
enee of charge as against the individual shipper, as against the. railway
eompanies?--A. Yes. I really must plead ignorance on that. It is some arrange-
ment. It is only one ease on which the railway absorbs part of the wharfage,
but that is a matter that is in the Montreal I-Iarbour Commissioner's tariff. That
would be easily explained.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. The steamship companies pay what percentage to the ship broker?--A.
One and one-quarter per cent when he books the cattle.
Q. Do they not pay one and one-quarter per cent to the steamship agencies
as well? A. I don't know what you mean by that.
Q. What does the Government Merchant Marine pay in the way of percent-
age? A. One and one-quarter. We are not carrying them now.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
206 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Cha.irman:
Q. Do you remember the fact that was brought up the last time you
were here, concerning the difference that was charged by British steamship
companies out of New York as well as American steamship companies out
of New York on flour, which originated in Canada as compared with flour which
originated in the United States?--A. Yes.
Q. Before the rate on Canadian flour was established was there any
communication between the Canadian Liners Committee and New York
concerning what rates should be fixed for flour?---A. You mean in recent times.
Q. Since 1921.
Mr. HAMIIELL: It is in operation at the present time?---A. At that time
the condition was not the same, I don't think. I really cannot just place the
times.
The CHAIRMAN: Let me review this to try to refresh your memory. I
quote from the minutes of the meeting of the Canadian Liners Committee
held on the 4th June, 1921: "The members of the Canadian Lines after
the New York Conference, having decided upon a minimum rate of 6/- on
wheat and barley and 5/3 on oats, per quarter, the question was raised as to
whether this was not too great a difference over :New York and might result
in shipments being diverted via Buffalo to the American sea board. In view
of the figures submitted by Mr. Marlow on rates from Fort William and Bay
ports to Montreal in comparison with Buffalo, it was decided there was nothing
to fear from this competition and that the difference arranged for might be
maintained. It was decided to fix the Canadian flour rate at 28 cents based on
5/ wheat rate at Canadian rate of exchange, and the following telegram was
sent to Secretary Morse:--
'At meeting Canadian Liner Committee held Saturday fourth June
it was unanimously decided to fix rate on Canadian flour at twenty-eight
cents Canadian currency based on 5/minimum wheat rate at Canadian
rate of exchange and request that New York Conference and United
States Shipping Board quote this rate on flour originating in Canada.
Please reply as quickly as possible.'"
After having heard that, is it possible Mr. Cunningham that this Associa-
tion, the Canadian Liner Committee, of which you were a member at that
meeting, that you suggested to the :North Atlantic concerns that there should
be a difference in price charged for carrying Canadian as opposed to American
flour? A. lTo sir. You will find that that figures out exactly the same, the
minimum rate. You see at that time the Canadian exchange was quite different
from the United States exchange.
Q. That is the explanation? A. Figuring 5/of the current rate of exchange
would bring it to just those figures. But there would be no difference as regards
the actual cents per hundred.
Q. This telegram suggests there should be a difference for the carriage
of flour, specified as to its origin, that is to say American flour was to be
carried at a different rate than Canadian flour?---A. It was a question of
carrying Canadian flour on the basis of Canadian cents per hundred pounds
as against carrying American flour on the basis of United States cents. It was
a question of exchange.
Q. The question of publicity came up at one of these meetings, on the 7th
June, ..921. :No reports of what you decided at this meeting were ever furnished
to the Canadian press, were they?--A. I don't think so. I don't remember.
[Mr. W. A, Cuauingham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 209
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. But if there were any substantial mistake in the way the minutes were
prepared, would you consider it wise to direct the secretary's attention to it?--
A. Yes, sir.
(. I want you to listen carefully to this, and then give us your explanation,
if there is any. In the minutes of 20th July, 1921, under the heading "Cana-
dian Government Merchant Marine," I find these words:-
" Mr. Cunningham announced that the Canadian Government Mer-
chant Marine would adhere to the Conference Continental Rates as agreed
upon from time to time and also expressed his willingness to join the
Continental Conference if necessary."
First of all, what is this Continental Conference?--A. That is a Conference of
the lines operating from Montreal to the continent; that is Antwerp and
Hamburg. We are not operating under that Conference. We send an odd
boat into Antwerp, and sometimes we have sent a boat to Rotterdam with
grain.
Q. Is that Conference a section of the :North Atlantic Conference, or is it
another Conference?---A. It is another branch of the North Atlantic Conference.
Q. It is a branch of the :North Atlantic Conference? A. It is entirely
independent of the United Kingdom branch.
Q. But it is made up largely of the same interests?---A. It is made up of
operators who have a service to the continent.
Q. Mr. Cuningham, frankly, this minute does not conv.ey to my mind the
impression that you were sitting in merely as an interested observer?---A. We
did not sit in in that Conference.
Q. Even without sitting in in that Conference you say that you adhere
the Conference Continental Rates as agreed upon from time to time? A. Well,
the reason for that is, naturally if we, through a shortage of cargoes, say to
London, wish to fill up a steamer for a continental port, we would inquire as to
what rates are in effect then and charge those rates.
Q. But, Mr. Cunningham, do you not see an apparent contradiction in
your statement that you only went to those meetings as an interested observer,
and the statement in those minutes that you agree to abide by those rates? A. I
do not remember ever saying that we went as an observer.
Q. You did not use the word " observer"?---A. I do not think I conveyed
that impression; I certainly never intended to convey it.
Q. Let us have it again. What is your idea in attending those regular
meetings of the Canadian Liner Committee?---A. In order to keep in touch with
the situation as to steamship operations.
Q. Then, do I understand that you are not obligated in any way to adhere
to the rates which are decided upon at those meetings?--A. Oh, yes, as long as
we agree they are reasonable and fair, and have no reason in the interests of
Canadian trade to act independently, we adhere to the rates agreed on.
Q. I see that on June 21st, 1921, there is this entry in the minutes:-
" Cattle: Telegram was read from Toronto shippers complaining of
the present rate of $40 per head, claiming that inland and ocean freight
was making present business unprofitable and almost prohibitive. Rate
of $40 per head, as per minute meeting May 31, reaffirmed."
You were present at that meeting?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any discussion, do you remember, about the rate?---A. I do
not remember any discussion, sir.
Q. You do not remember ever having tried to bring down the rate that
the others made?--A. :No, sir, we have never felt that the rate on live stock
was unfair from an operating standpoint.
--14 [Ir. W. A. Cuaaiagham.]
210 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. In the minutes of June 28, 1921, I read under the heading of "Apples "--
" The Chairman was requested to write Secretary Morse asking that
the apple rate be put on the agenda for discussion at the next Conference
meeting at New York, July 7th."
Does not that bear out my contention that those rates were settled not in
Montreal but in New York? A. Of course, the meetings at New.York are
attended by all the Conference members. It is perhaps a coincidence that
meetings are held in New York, but that has no important bearing on the
making of the rates.
Q. The rates are nmdc at New York and the meeting is attended by all
the Conference members?--A. That is the meeting place for the Conference.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. I think it would simplify things if you would tell us on what basis
those rates are made. The other day you spoke about a rate that was war-
ranted, and so on. Now you say that the rates are made, and I would like to
know what elements you take into consideration, or what elements they take
ihto consideration in making the rates?--A. That is a question of market
conditions.
Q. That is all I want to know.--A. To-day the rates on practically all
commodities are lower than they slould be from the point of view of steamship
operating costs.
Q. What costs would make the rate go up? A. The cost of operating the
steamer.
By the, Chairman:
Q. You take into consideration, do you not, the rates that are being
obtained for the things you carry?---A. That would be a factor if the rates were
on a profitable basis, I have no doubt, but to-day I do not know of any rates
that do bear a profit.
Q. But generally speaking, the price which is being obtained for the
commodity carried, is one of the factors entering into the decision as to what the
rates should be?--A. That is so.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. The rate for cattle used to be $7.50 or 30s. to 40s?---A. I do not know
that we were in that business.
Q. Has the cost of operation increased to that extent, all the way from $7.50
to 0, an increase of at least five times what it used to be ?A. Ve were not
in the business at the time, so I cannot tell you what the costs were then.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. You iust said that you did not know of any rates that were making a
profit? A. In the larger commodities.
Q. Is it a fact that all the steamship companies are carrying stuff at a loss?
--A. Certain commodities, at a loss, yes, sir. I don't think we have seen very
many satisfactory annual reports of the Steamship Companies lately.- I think
they all show losses in their operations.
By the C/mirman:
Q. I notice that on July 4, 1921, under the heading " Grain "
Grain.--Telegram of July 1st and circular letters dated July 1st, and
2nd, from Secretary Morse, together with Supplement No. 10 to Com-
modity List No. 17, dated June 20th were placed before the meeting
'[Mr:.W.A. Cminghrn.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 211
APPENDIX No. 3
and discussed. Canadian lines agreed quote rates as per Supplement No.
10 on grain up to August Seaboard pending action New York meeting
July 7th as to rates beyond that date.
Am I wrong? You will tell me if I am wrong in my feeling that these grain
rates were only settled after conference with New York?--A. No, sir. From
memory I would say they were settled in Montreal.
Q. Why all this correspondence with New York? A. To keep them advised
of what we were doing. They would keep us advised.
Q. Is your evidence to the effect that the only obiect in communicating
with New York was to advise them of decisions which you had advised them of,
independently of Montreal? A. To advise them of the decisions and to confer
with them as to market conditions on the grain situation.
Q. And as to what rates should be charged?---A. If New York was charging
a certain rate and we in Montreal were higher than that rate we would feel it
necessary to reduce our rate to that basis.
Q. If New York was higher than Montreal would you not feel it necessary
or wise to increase your rate, as a usual thing?--A. No, I think it would work
the other way. The United States would want to reduce theirs.
Q. It was a sort of competition, to see who could rcduce the fastest.---A. It
was to keep in view the market conditions as to the grain situation.
Q. Would you have these gentlemen and myself to understand that con-
ferences were held with the idea merely of reducing rates and never of putting
them up?---A. No, I would not say that. There was an increase in one rate,
maybe a month or two ago, which is the only one I remember of in about four
years.
Q. Rates have been on the down grade?--A. Absolutely, yes, sir, from 14s.
down to ls. 6d. on grain.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. To what do you attribute that?--A. Market conditions. The conditions
of the grain market.
Q. That means you charge all the trade can stand?---A. That is a difficult
question to answer. I am not in a position to say as to that.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Will you explain the difference? What conditions would make rates go
up and what conditions would make them come down or tend that way? A. I
would say that that would be the question of price in Great Britain or on the
continent.
Q. You mean to say you base your ocean rate charges on what the price is
in Great Britain. What has that to do with the cost of carrying?--A. It has a
great deal to do with it. If the Canadian shipper is shut out of the English
market on account of say, Australian grain or grain from the River Plate, the
price has to be adjusted if he is going to get into it.
Q. If on the other hand he has free access to the demand for the Canadian
grain you raise your rates and take advantage of it? A. No, sir. I don't
remember ever having done that to an unfair basis.
Q. Still if the market condition warranted the rates, because you said over
and over again those market conditions govern the rate. If market conditions
warranted the rates? A. It has always to be borne in mind that the grain rate
is not a remunerative one to steamships.
Q. Is there anything that is remunerative to the steamships?---A. Very
little. Not cattle or flour or grain anyway.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.|
212 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Hammeg:
Q. Can you tell us just at what date the rate on grain was 14s.?--A. I
cannot tell you from memory.
Q. Approximately.--A. I would say in 1920, I think.
Q..Now it is ls. 6d.?--A. It has gone as low as ls. 6d., yes.
Q. How much higher was your cost of operation in 1920 than it is to-day,
comparatively; 100 per cent?---A. Oh, more than that.
Q. How much more; 200 per cent?--A. I should think at least three times
as much.
Q. Your rate was nearly ten times that?--A. It lust shows that it bears out
my statement as to how unprofitable the rate is.
Q. Was your rate profitable at 14s. at that time?A. I would say that left
a little.
By the Clmirnn:
Q. A small margin?--A. A small margin.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. How much is the traffic losing you now?--A. I cannot answer that
because it depends on the quantity we carry in a shipment. It is not the
same quantity in each steamer.
Q. You don't mean to tell me there is any shortage of wheat to carry this
year? There is congestion everywhere and cargoes waiting to be shippec?--A.
Fhere have been times when there has not been grain available for the United
Kingdom.
Q. At what time this past year?--A. I remember in February there was no
grain for some of our London steamers. We had to take grain for Antwerp in
order to get a cargo.
By Mr. Grimmer:
Q. You are giving us the rate on grain in 1920 and 1922. Can you give us
the rate on flour on those dates? A. It is 19 cents at the present time and 1
don't, remember what it was in 1920.
Q. 19207--A. Canadian flour is 19 cents to-day but in 1920 I think it was
65 cents, wasn't it?
Q. You have stated that in June 1921 you did not consider the rate of $40
on live stock unfair at that time, on cattle?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you take the initiative in fixing the rates at all or is that left to these
conferences?--A. No. We figure out our costs for fitting up these steamers an0
for the costs of the attendants and all other expenses and base the rates on those
figures.
By Mr. Cliord:
Q. Why should the rate be so much higher?--A. When.
Q. In 1920 than it is now? A. On account of labour conditions and operat-
ing costs. Coal was higher and wages were higher.
Q. It could not be very much more.--A. We paid as high as $20 for bunker
coal.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. In Mr. Nicol's evidence the other day, when we were talking about that
reduction of the freight rates on Nova Scotia apples, it was reduced from $5 to
$1. It would have been $5 in 1919 or 1920. The Nova Scotia shippers had to
go to New York in order to get the rate reduced.--A. I don't know about that.
We never handled any $5 apples.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.l
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS
213
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Can you give us any idea of wtmt commodities you usually work on?--
A. I would say the main ones are grain and flour.
Q. What commodities are your best'.--A. Well the higher class com-
modities-
Q. For example?--A. The present rate on automobiles is iust about---I
would say iust about cost. I really cannot tell you the ones that are considered
the profitable ones because really all those commodities are limited practically
to the fast boats.
Q. What is the present price of automobiles?--A. Fifteen cents per cubic
foot.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. I have before me a list dated December 31, 1921, 65 cents per cubic foot.
In this same list it also shows--I quote flour 65 cents per 100 pounds in barrels;
half-barrels, 75 cents per 100 pounds. This is the latter part of 19217--A. Yes.
Q. The present rate of flour is 19 cents?---A. Canadian flour 19 cents, yes.
Q. Just when did that cease to be a profitable business.--A. Very shortly
after the United States Government took a hand in the rate making.
Q. I mean from the rate of 19 cents to 65 cents?--A. I could not say that,
sir. That is a question of operating costs.
The CH^mM^N: Gentlemen, my suggestion is this: I have not been able
to get through the whole of this file. The matters referred to are on a par with
the matters under discussion with the witness and I doubt if it is necessary for
us to go further into this file at this time. I propose to ask the witness a few
questions of a general character and then I will leave him to the members of
the Committee to question him on any special point they may have in their
minds.
Q. :Now, I think you said when you were here the other day or yesterday
that you had departed on certain occasions from the rates fixed by the Cana-
dian Liner Committee, and my impression is that you said that it would average
about once a month, the departure from the rates. Am I right? A. The way
the question was put perhaps would indicate that we averaged once a month,
but what I meant to convey was that the total number of times or the total
of shipments accepted might in the aggregate amount to, in three years, thirty-
six times.
Q. Will you tell us on what occasion and in respebt to what products or
articles you departed from the rate? A. In 1920, at the time when it was being
considered as to whether we should sit in with the Conference, the lines were
charging $1.50 per hundred pounds on meats and we made a charge of $1.25.
Q. You advised your associates what you were going to do? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they come down also?--A. No, sir, not immediately.
Q. They finally came down?---A. At that time there was a great demand
for space and perhaps, as you remember, the British Ministry controlled a
certain amount of the space on all British steamers. We were not in that
position. We had the whole of our space for commercial bookings.
Q. That is in 1920 on meats? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember any other instance in the year 1920 in which you
departed from the established rates? A. :No, sir, I don't, offhand.
Q. Do you think there was any other? .-. :No, I don't think so, but I
would like to say that matters of that kind are very rarely handled by corre-
spondence. It is practically all verbal.
Q. You would remember, would you not, whether you had departed from
the rates in 1920 in other regards?--A. I would say so.
IMr. W. A. Cunnmgham.]
214 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. To the best of your recollection, and you believe your recollection to
be accurate?--A. Yes.
Q. In the year 1920 you departed from the established rates on only one
occasion and that in respect to meats? A. I thought you meant---
Q. Don't bother about what you thought I meant. Have I summed up the
situation correctly? A. If you wish to make it on a commodity I would say
yes.
Q. I don't infer there was only one shipment of meat. There have been a
number of shipments of meat?--A. Which would go to make the thirty-six.
Q. But that was the case, and the commodity in respect of which you
departed from the rates?--A. Yes.
Q. ttave you any idea how many shipments there might be?---A. qo.
Q. There might be a number?--A. Yes.
Q. That is for the year 19207 Take the year 1921. Do you remember on
what occasion and in respect of what commodity you departed from the estab-
lished rates during that year?--A. I remember we had occasion to take independ-
ent action in connection with Nova Scotia apples.
Q. Do you remember any other occasion during the year 1921 in which
you departed from the rates, save and except in respect to Nova Scotia apples?
--A. We had times where we took on shipments of Quebec deals.
Q. In 1921 ? A. Yes. I would like to say these were practically all taken
as deck loads.
Q. A deck load will often be carried at a little lower rate than for goods
put in the hold?--A. It has come down, yes.
Q. Were there any other occasions in respect to any other commodity in
1921 ?--A. I don't remember any.
Q. In 1922 did you depart from any established rates and if so in respect
to what commodity?-A. I would say the same would apply on deals in 1922.
Q. In 1923 did you depart from established rates?---A. No, I don't remem-
ber of any.
Q. Was there anything about automobiles? Do you ever depart from the
established rates in regard to automobiles?---A. There was a shipment of auto-
mobiles in 1922 when the rate was 35 cents and we gav a rate of 25 cents a
cubic foot.
Q. Did that cover shipments?--A. Yes.
Q. To sum up your evidence on this point to the best of your recollection,
and you believe your recollection if fairly accurate, since the inception of the
Canadian Government Merchant Marine that institution has maintained the
rates established with their associates in respect to deals, automobiles, apples,
and there was one other, meats?--A. I would say that first, you must remember
we have been instrumental in a very large number of cases in arranging for the
adjustment of freight rates.
Q. Up or down?---A. Down.
Q. I am not saying that what you state is not accurate but I do sav that
this battle for lower rates for the people of Canada does not appear in tl'fis file
you placed before the Committee, so far as I have been able to see.--A. As I
said a moment ago a great many of the discussions were verbal in that con-
nection.
Q. You just told us about three of those discussions in the four years you
have been operating. Tell us in what respect you have battled for lower rates,
and in regard to what commodity.--A. I remember sole leather in rolls was one
where we arranged to meet the shipper's wishes in making a very drastic
reduction.
Q. Did you get your association to comply with that?---A. Yes.
[Mr. W. A. Curmingham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS
215
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. What was the drastic reduction?--A. I think it was from $2 to $1 per
hundred pounds.
Q. How many shipments did that cover?--A. Well unfortunately after the
rate was reduced we did not get any shipments. It went by other lines.
Q. Why did it go by other lines?--A. The shipper's privilege.
Q. Why did it go by the other lines? Because they gave them a lower rate?
--A. No, sir.
Q. Because they gave them better aeeommodation?---A. It might be that
it went on a faster steamer but we don't consider it was a very fair way to treat
US.
Q. That battle for the rights of the people was an empty victory? A. It
was a victory for them. It enabled them to market their leather on a more
profitable basis.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. What rate do you say leather was cut from?--A. I think from $2 to $1.
Q. This supplement, in December, 1921. quoting leather at $2.50 per hundred
pounds; leather in rolls, bales, bags or bundles; leather in cases or bundles, except
stiffening leather, fibre heels, $1; leather belting $1; leather scrap in bags, value
not over 5 cents per pound, $2 per hundred pounds. That is all that is said about
leather? A. I think a little later on you will find the $2.50 basis was down to $2.
Q. This is on December 31, 1921?--A. Yes.
Bg the Chairman:
Q. In what year was that victory on leather achieved?--A. I really don't
remember. ,
Mr. HAMMELL: It must have been last year.
By the Chairman:
Q. :No, we have leather. Do you remember any other occasions?--A. Yes.
I remember on wood pulleys.
Q. Do you remember what the reduction was?--A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you remember the ex'cent of shipments after the reduction? A. We
had four or five carloads.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Carloads? Not a very extensive trade?--A. No.
By the Chairman:
Q. As a matter of fact would all the wood pulleys shipped by sea from
Canada in a year fill one hold of your ship?--A. I would not be in a position
to say that.
Q. Give us an idea.--A. I would say probably about one cargo.
Q. One cargo of a whole ship of wood pulleys?--A. Yes. I want to make
it--
Q. You know more about these things than we do?--A, I am afraid vou are
asking me a question I should not answer because I don't know how much he out-
put of this firm is.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Is there only one firm making them? A. I only know of one firm.
By the Chairman:
Now 'hat other things did you obtain
Q. We found leather and pulleys.
a reduction on?
[Mr. W. A. Cunninghan]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 217
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. You don't suggest pulleys are shipped in large quantities and you have
these? A. Yes.
Q. You remember the case of leather when none was shipped at all?--A.
By our lines. It was certainly emphasized in my memory.
Q. It impressed itself on your mind because after you fought the battle
to get cheap rates it was pretty mean of them to take the shipment elsewhere?
---A. Yes. We were convinced that it wa.s necessary, in order to get into the
market, that the rates would be reduced.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. To get rates reduced you made sub-shipments?---A. The matter was
brought to our attention that the reason the leather was not being shipped was
because the rate was high.
Q. If our cattle men said " We cannot ship cattle at these prices. We won't
ship them". That would have a tendency to lower the rate?--A. We are not
handling cattle.
Q. Whereas if they sent a great number of them the tendency would be to
increase the rate? A. We don't handle cattle.
Q. I am speaking as a shipping man.---A. That would be entirely outside
of the question of the costs, fitting up and operating. Where you get down to a
point which is not profitable the Canadian Merchant Marine could not be asked
to handle business at a loss, when it is operated on a commercial basis.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Cunningham, when you departed from these rates did you ever get
any letters from the Canadian Liners Committee finding fault with you for
doing so?--A. I do not remember getting any such letters.
Q. I am going to read to you a letter which is on the file you have produced,
a letter written by the Chairman to hlr. Doherty, of the Canada Steamship
Lines, Limited, which bears date November 9, 1921, and which reads as
follows:
EXHIBIT No. 8
" November 9, 1921.
L. A. W. Doherty, Esq.,
Canadian Steamship Lines, Ltd.,
Montreal.
Dear Sir:
At Canada Liner Committee meeting held yesterday it was reported
that your company were cutting rates on provisions and automobiles to
Ukay, by an arrangement of special rebate to shippers.
As you are a member of the Canadian Liner Committee, I, as Chair-
man, have been requested to write to you in the matter, and will be
pleased if you will advise, by return, if such is the case."
The name is not on this copy of the letter, but it says "Chairman Cana-
dian Liner Committee meeting November 8, 1921."
Q. Do you remember ever getting a letter of this sort? A. No, sir.
Q. Not necessarily in the same matter? A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Mr. Doherty wrote back the next day the following letter:
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
218
PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
10, 1921.
" Montreal, November
J. W. Nicol, Esq.,
Chairman, Canadian Liner Committee. Meeting,
Messrs. Furness, Withy & Co., Ltd.,
]Viontreal.
Dear Sir :--
I am in receipt of your letter of the 9th inst., fil 6.
Previous to the receipt of your letter I discussed this matter with
you on the telephone, and pointed out that the report made at the meet-
ing, so far as it is recorded in the minutes thereof and in your letter, is
of a general character. Complaints of rate cutting are heard at Con-
ference meetings from time to time, and those making such complaints
usually have, or think they have some definite information or grounds
to support them. Therefore, on receipt of some definite or specific
information relating to the charges in question, I sSall be pleased to give
these complaints the necessary attention.
Yours very truly,
L. A. W. Doherty,
General Traffic Manager,
Canada Steamship Lines, Ltd."
The letter says " complaints of rate cutting are heard at Conference meet-
ings from time to time,"--what Conference would that be?---A. Montreal, I
would say.
Q. Mr. L. A. W. Doherty was the gentleman xYho gave us a good definition
of the Committee?--A. Yes.
Q. Stabilizing?--A. Yes.
Q. Here is the answer to Mr. Doherty, which I think is correct; it is dated
November 12, 1921:
" L. A. W. Doherty, Esq.,
General Traffic ]Vianager,
Intercontinental Transports, Ltd.,
City.
Dear Sir :-
Your letter of the 10th instant has been distributed to the members
of the Committee, and I am instructed to say in reply that it has not been
the practice of the Canadian Conference Committee to exact specific
details of alleged rate cutting. When an allegation of the kind has been
made in general terms it is usual for the Line involved to admit or deny
fault, and if the charge is founded on fact an explanation is made.
Frequently a poll is taken, but as you have been absent from our several
recent meetings such procedure could not be followed in this instance."
Q. Were you ever present at any of these meetings when a poll was taken?
--A. I do not remember that I was; "I must have been, if he says that frequently
there was a poll taken. I do not really understand what he means by a poll.
The CHAmbrAY: I did not quite understand it myself.
Mr. SALES: It means that a vote was taken.
By the Chairman:
Q. Would it be this, Mr. Cunningham; the company which had been guilty
of the fault of reducing rates, its representative would be brought before his
associates and censured, and a vote of censure passed after the representatives
were polled; is that the idea?---A. If that is what he means bv a poll, it must be.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 219
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Was that ever done at any meeting you attended? A. There have been
occasions when an opinion was voiced as to whether a certain action was justi-
fied or not.
Q. Was any fault ever found with a company that raised the rate? A. As
I say, I have not been there all the time.
Q. Your name is mentioned at nearly everyone of them?---A. I was going to
say that I did not recollect where there had been any increases in the rates,
with the exception of one commodity rate.
Q. By votes of censure their opinions were expressed as to the fault of a
member, and if so it must have been for cutting a rate?---A. :Not for cutting a
rate, but as departing from the usual procedure.
Q. The letter continues:
" One of our members is in possession of declared authentic infor-
mation to the effect that you booked a shipment of Provisions from
a United States point for London on condition that the Bill of Lading
show ocean rate of 60 cents per 100 pounds while adjustment of freight
was to be made on the basis of 50 cents per 100 pounds; or in other words
a rebate by subterfuge was arranged of 10 cents per 100 pounds. Similar
information has been received regarding Automobiles to London and
Asbestos to Hamburg.
In view of your letter to the Canadian Liner Committee under date
of May 6, in which you undertook to observe Conference rules and regu-
lations as set forth in minutes of meeting April 26, it seems only reason-
able that the Committee should expect a definite reply from you to the
complaint made.
Yours truly,
J. W. :NICOL, Chairman,
Canadian Liner Committee Meeting,
:November 8, 1921"
r. CALDWELL: Whom wa,s that letter written to?
The CHAIRI\IAN: It was written to hlr. L. A. W. Doherty.
Mr. CALDWELL: It is not a complaint against the Canadian Government
Merchant Marine for cutting prices?
The CHAIRMAN: NO.
Mr. CALDWELL: They are not the only ones who were cutting prices.
The CHAIRMAN: These letters will be marked as Exhibit :No. 8.
(Three letters consisting of four sheets, marked as Exhibit 1No. 8).
Q. Do you have any expenses in connection with your Canadian Liner
Committee? A. 1No, sir.
Q. Are any fees exacted?--A. 1No, sir.
Mr. CALDWELL: These letters are being incorporated into the minutes?
The CHAIRIAN : Yes, certainly.
Q. Do you remember any correspondence held last May by telegram iu
which the Canadian Liner Committee obiected to the lowering of the rate on
flour by .New York?---A. No, I do not remember offhand, sir.
Q. Your evidence has been to the effect that you merely advise .New York
about flour as a matter of courtesy? A. As far as the rate has been open in the
United States.
Q. Did you ever at any time advise :New York, or have any correspondence
with :New York, telegraphic or otherwise, which had something more than mere
politeness as its basis?--A. I cannot answer that from memory.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
220 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. I have here your telegram addressed, Montreal, May 2, 1922, to Sidney
E. Morse, 8 Bridge Street, :New York, :N.Y.
"See Craig's wire eight ninety-five flour Canadian Lines holding for
present twenty-five cents Ukay and Irish Ports flour Canadian origin but
have information United States Lines are violating our agreement by
booking through brokers at yours flour from Ontario at eighteen and
nineteen cents. Investigate and advise.
W. T. Marlow."
What was this agreement which Mr. Marlow, who signs this telegram, charges
the :New York people with violating? A. I presume it was in the usual course
of events. If the tariff showed 25 cents the :New York lines would ask that rate.
Q. Correct me if I am wrong in this, Mr. Cunningham; you have told this
Committee that you advised :New York about flour rates merely as a matter of
courtesy?--A. Merely that they would be kept advised as to what our rate was.
Q. Do you persist in that, that it was a matter of courtesy that you advised
:New York about your flour rate; was it not in order to see that both parties
o this agreement would maintain the combine prices they agreed upon?--A.
There is no agreed price on United States flour, as far as the British lines are
concerned.
Q. Have you agreed upon prices upon flour of Canadian origin?--A. We
figured that our rates were fair rates.
Q. What I want to find out is this; was there a binding agreement between
the shippers, the transporting interests out of :New York and the transportation
interests out of Montreal to maintain a certain rate upon flour of Canadian
origin; was there or was there not; you may answer Yes or :No. and then give us
your explanation afterwards. Was there an arrangement to that effect, or was
there not?---A. I do not think I can answer Yes or :No to that question, sir.
Q. Let me read both telegrams to you, and they will perhaps refresh your
memory and enable you to answer. The first is a telegram addressed by W. T.
Marlow, who is one of the head men I understand of the C.P.R. boats?---A. A
foreign freight agent of the C.P.R.
Q. He telegraphed Sidney E. Morse, at :No. 8 Bridge sbreet, :New York.
Mr. Morse is the secretary of the :North Atlantic Service Ukay, is he not?--A.
Yes.
Q. Here is the telegram:--
EXHIBIT :No. 9
.Iontreal, May 2. 1922.
Sidney E. Morse,
8 Bridge street,
:New York, N.Y.
See Craig's wire eighty ninety-five flour Canadian Lines holding fo
present twenty-five cents Ukay and Irish ports flour Canadian origin but
have information United States Lines are violating our agreement by
booking through brokers at yours flour from Ontario at eighteen and nine-
teen cents Investigate and advise.
W. T. Marlow.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.l
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION 221
APPENDIX No. 3
On the same date there is another telegram, which is addressed to Mr. Craig
by Mr. Marlow, as follows:--
Montreal, May 2rid, 1922.
V. H. Craig,
United States Shipping Board,
45 Broadway, :New York, :N.Y.
Your eight ninety-five and six Canadian Lines at present holding
for twenty-four cents flour of Canadian origin to Antwerp Rotterdam
Hamburg Bremen French Atlantic Ports and twenty-five cents Ukay and
Irish Ports. See my wire date Morse.
W. T. Marlow.
{Copy of two telegrams marked Exhibit :No. 9.)
Q. With these telegrams in your ears, Mr. Cunningham, do you suggest to
the gentlemen of this Committee that there was not an agreement between the
transportation interests trading out of New York and trading out of Montreal
to maintain a certain rate on flour of Canadian origin? A. Yes, there was an
agreement.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. With regard to shipments from St. John to Cuba, did you have any
correspondence in 1922 with regard to the shipment of potatoes between St.
John and Cuba?--A. qo, sir; not that I remember.
Q. You had shipped from St. John during the winter of 1920 and 1921, had
you not?--A. Yes.
Q. That would be the winter of 1920-21?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. Rather 1919, 1920 and 1921? A. Yes.
Q. Why did you discontinue last year?--A. Because conditions in Cuba
became so terrible that we lost money on the service.
Q. What were the conditions? A. They had a very serious strike in
Havana in, I think, the winter of 1921. The result was that steamers were tied
up there, some of them for two months, and very heavy expenses were incurred,
which created a heavy loss.
Q. And you were through, for that reason?---A. Yes.
Q. It is a peculiar thing that the Furness-Withy Company were so anxious
for the business while your people were pulling out.--A. I think Furness-Withy
were on a different basis in this regard, that they are handling, as I understand
it, steamers as agents only.
Q. But they must make the traffic pay, for the season?--A. I do not see
how they can, but I am not in a position to answer that.
Q. They charter steamers as the traffic goes out?---A. Yes.
Q. Do you think they would do that if the traffic was not paying?---A. If
the owners were accepting the rates offered, they would continue.
Q. But they must charter them at a price that the traffic will pay for it, or
they would not charter at all?--A. That would be good business, I would say;
but we could not charter a steamer of the Canadian Government Merchant
Marine at a price that apparently the Furness-Withy Company can obtain
steamers for.
Q. At the present time?--A. Yes, at the present time, because we would
show a very heavy operating loss.
Q. Was not your chief difficulty due to the fact that there was not enough
cargo traffic offering in the two years you were on the route, that the traffic was
light?---A. That would be partly the reason.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.|
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 223
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. What cargo is she handling? A. General cargo, such as flour, produce
and so on.
Q. Do you find these steamers profitable for general cargo? A. It all
depends upon the trade, we have four of those 3,900 type now in the trade in
the British Indies and Demarara, and from Halifax in the winter and Montreal
in the summer.
Q. They do not take in St. John any more? A. Well, we never did on
that trade.
Q. But you did on the Cuban trade for two winters?---A. Yes, when we were
in the Cuban trade it was transferred to operate it from St. John.
Q. My point is this, if you only exported 510,000 bushels one year, and
500,000 odd bushels another winter, when you were operating all winter, last
year we exported out of St. John 1,570,000 bushels? A. Yes.
Q. And this year we exported 1,500,000 bushels, and you did not operate
'11 winter?--A. 'es.
Q. It seems to me that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine oper-
ated while it was not profitable, but as soon as it became profitable, they with-
drew their ships?---A. No, because it is not profitable at the rate being paid.
Q. That is interesting. The Furness-Withy Company are certainly very
benevolent?--A. :No, I should have said it was not profitable because if we
carried potatoes at the rate being paid we would operate at a loss.
Q. You said your operating expenses were as low as they should be?--A.
In some cases yes, but that reflects on the operating cost.
Q. That is another thing entirely. We want to get the operating cost,
not the capital expenditures?--A. Included in the operating cost, you remember,
is the question of insurance, and naturally the higher capital cost, the higher
the insurance premium.
Q. Not the higher insurance rate. You pay the same rate for the amount
of insurance you get? A. Yes, but if one steamer is valued at one-half of what
another steamer is valued at. naturally the insurance is less.
Q. Of course, that would be a very simple item? A. :No, sir.
Q. In your operating expenses?---A. We do not consider it small.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. Do you carry insurance rates according to the value of the steamers when
they are built, or according to the value they could be built for today?--A. I
cannot answer that, sir; have no knowledge of the insurance department.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You have control, Mr. Cunningham, or rather under your management,
of the ships running to England---the Old Country? What arrangements have
you to secure cargo on the other side? A. Homeward bound?
Q. Yes, westbound.---A. That is in the hands of our European manager,
in London.
Q. And is there a north Atlantic rate westbound too?A. Yes, sir.
Q. There is?---A. Yes.
Q. That meets over on the other side?--A. Yes.
Q. And you adhere to those rates too? A. As far as I know, we do.
Q. Do you have any difficulty in securing a full cargo back?--A. Yes.
Q. You come back light? A. Yes, with the exception of when we are carry-
ing cargoes of coal, then we have a full cargo.
Q. What do you carry when you are short of cargo--water or sand?--A.
The steamers constructed today have their water ballast.
Q. And you would rather come back carrying water than to break the
north Atlantic rate?---A. It is not a question of that; it is a question of cargo not
being available.
[Mr. W. A. Cunningham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 227
APPENDIX No. 3
is not a problem of the packing-house industry. The packing-house, as a mat-
ter of fact, is simply the clearing house for the livestock that is produced in
Canada. The livestock industry, of course, could not be maintained or developed
without a packing-house industry, and it goes without saying that the packing-
house could not be developed without a livestock industD-, and the function of
the packing-house--and I think this a thing that does not get the attention or
the reflection that it deservesit is simply that of a clearing-house for live-
stock. The price that a packing-house pays for livestock of any kind at any
time is determined by conditions which the packing-hou.e does not control at
all. It is determined by the price for the various products on the markets of
the world. For instance, I might quote or illustrate that by the bacon industry.
The price that is paid for hogs in Canada to-day is dctermined by two things:
the price that is available in England for Wiltshire bacon, and the price that is
available in Canada, that is being obtained in Canada for the domestic cuts.
These are the two markets to which all the products of Canadian hogs go. The
packing-houses have nothing to say about this price. This perhaps is ess true
of the Canadian price than of the British. In regard to the price that is obtain-
able for the Canadian Wiltshire bacon on the British nmrket, the packing-
houses in Canada have absolutely nothing to say at all. That price is deter-
mined by conditions which are not set by Canadian couditions because the
Canadian product---the percentage of the total British consumption of bacon
which comes from Canada is quite small. The point I am making there is
simply this, that if the price in Great Britain were higher, the price--that
higher prce--would be reflectd back here. If the price in Great Britain were
lower, that lower price would similarly be reflected back here. The way that
is reflected is quite simple. It is governed by the competition between packing-
houses to secure hogs. If the price advances in England, all the packing-houses
are anxious to get hogs, to take advantage of that higher price, and these condi-
tions under which the product is nmrketed are through the instrument of the
competition between packing-houses reflected back.
Now, in regard to the general outlook in tim Canadian live stock industry,
I recognize that rom the packing house industry you are entitled to a view on
that. My view is, if we may deal perhaps with cattle first---my view is that
independently of all other considerations, Canada must start out from this start-
ing point; Canada must have an export industry, an export cattle trade; agricul-
ture cannot be kept sound without it. The number of cattle which Canada itself
can consume internally is so small, relatively, to the number of cattle that
Canada can produce, that Canada would have no industry, no cattle industry at
all, if she catered only to her own requirenents. Therefore, I take it as an axiom
of the situation that Canada must have an export cattle industry. Besides that,
the number of cattle, there is one other argument or point involved in that,
namely, that if Canada produced only enough cattle for her own domestic
requirements, her land would suffer and become unfertile, because it would not
be adequately manured. Therefore the considerations of sound agriculture
demand in Canada, as they have always demanded all over the rest of the
world--.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That will apply to Eastern Canada?--A. I should say--remember, I am
not an e.xpert on western conditionsbut I would say that if it applied to other
countries all over the world, it should apply to Western Canada.
Q. It will in time, but not yet.--A. I would say it does already. I have
heard that question discussed many times, and I know there is a difference of
[lIr. J. Stanley McLean.]
228 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
opinion. I know in different districts of Western Canada, where they have the
deep black soil, they claim they do not need manure, but I do not understand
why, because all crops must take fertility out of the soil, and it seems to me
it must be good judgment to replace that.
Q. Yes, but if you are a practical farmer and you did that and had a crop
laying down that you could not cut, you would see the futility of applying
manure.--A. Yes. I do not want to be too dogmatic on that, but the percentage
of land in the West in which the fertilizing, the manure, would produce too heavy
a crop must, I think, be quite small. There must, I think, be a very large area
in the West where, from the beginning, it would be profitable to manure. How-
ever, you know better than I do about that, Mr. Sales.
The CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, you see we have been led off on an interesting
question of that kind, but let us hear the witness on his statement, make notes
of what we want to discuss afterwards, and then take it up, because we will be
going in a zig-zag direction all the time.
Mr. SALES: That is right; I apologize.
The lVTnss: If we may start from that basis, I take it as axiomatic in the
consideration of this problem that Canada must produce a surplus of cattle.
This surplus, then, must be marketed somewhere. If we have an export trade, if
we have a surplus, it means that it has to be shipped to another country.
The witness retired.
The Committee adjourned until 3.30 p.m. March 21, 1923.
A]ternoon Session
HoI'.E oF COlkIMOIS,
COMMITTEE lOOM No. 268,
Wednesday, March 21, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 3.30 p.m., Mr. A. 1. McMaster in the chair.
J. S. MCLEA recalled.
The WTESS: Shall I go on, Mr. Chairman?
The CnmA: Yes, if you please.
The WESS: If that sketch of the situation is correct, then the great
problem in the cattle industry in Canada is to find export markets for the
surplus. Now, the natural country to absorb the surplus of cattle from Canada
is, of course, the United States. I say of course because they are our nearest
neighbour, and because they are a highly industrialized country, in which there
is a population of 120,000,000 people, and in which their consumption has
already overtaken their cattle production. So that the United States, I will
say, is the natural, the first natural market for the surplus cattle of Canada, and
a proof of that lies in the fact flint Canada has suffered so severely from the
recent tariff legislation that has been enacted in the United States. You will
recall that the emergency tariff was passed in 1921, I think it was in June,
although I do not remember the dates, and the final, or the revised, tariff was
passed in the following year, the fall of 1922. The emergency tariff placed a
duty of 30 per cent on live cattle and two cents a pound on dressed meat, and
the final tariff revised that upwards---I do not just recall the details of the
duty on live cattle, but the duty on dressed meat entering the United States
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
AGRICULTURAL COND1TION 229
APPENDIX No. 3
is now three cents per pound. That, in the main, has been the cause of the
depression in the cattle industry in Canada within the last two years. It is
not the only cause, of course. Cattle, during the war and following the war,
had got on to such a high level that there was bound to be deflation in the
cattle industry, just as there was in every industry, but that deflation would
have worked itself out and conditions would have resumed or become normal
in the cattle industry, except for this great misfortune of the United States
tariff. I suppose you gentlemen have all considered just what the effect on the
United States tariff was on the Canadian cattle industry. If you have not, it
can be sketched in a moment. For a period of ten years, since 1913, when
the previous tariff--I do not remember the name of the tariff--
The CHAIRMAN: I think it was the Underwood Tariff, it was the tariff that
went into effect after the Woodrow Wilson administration came in.
The WITNESS: Yes, that is it. Since the passing of the Underwood Tariff,
all the surplus cattle, practically, of Canada had gone to the United States--
the surplus live cattle, at any rate. During that period, of course, the war
had intervene<l, and during three years of the war, Canada shipped quite large
quantities of frozen beef to Europe, for use by the armies but all the live cattle
that had been exported from Canada had gone to the United States, without
exception. Now, the figures were approximately these: Canada markets annually
about 1,000,000 cattle, and during the five or six years preceding 1922 --
By the Chairman:
Q. When you say "markets," that is both at home and abroad?--A. Yes; they
come to the markets of Canada. The number of cattle marketed, or that were
brought to the various markets of Canada, are recorded, and I am speaking of
the cattle that come for sale to the various markets of Canada. If you are
interested in having these market figures, I can send them to you for a number
of years. Canada markets annually about 1,000,000 cattle. During the five
years preceding 1922, there have gone to the United States an average of
200,000 cattle, and they had entered the United States without duty. Now, this
duty of 30 per cent was placed on these cattle, and it does not need proving, I
think, that the effect of that duty was to take 30 per cent off the value of all
the cattle shipped from Canada to the United States. These cattle came on
the market and had to go to another market, and the other market was that of the
United States, and they got the United States price less 30 per cent which was
the duty.
By the Chairman:
Q. That is to say, your idea is that the whole of the United States duty was
paid by the Canadian exporter and none by the American importer?--A.
Roughly, I would say so, and I will enlarge on that in a few moments. I might,
take that point up now. The reason for that is this, that there are marketed in
the United States about 20,000,000 cattle annually, so that this 200,000 cattle
that go from Canada--.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. That is their own local market?--A. Yes, to the markets of the United
States, there come annually about 20,000,000 cattle for sale, and these 20,000,000
cattle are consumed in the United States. Now, this 200,000 cattle that come
from Canada t.o the United States markets form iust one per cent of the total
you will see, of the cattle that are marketed in the United States, so the effect of
increasing the price, if it were increased, of the 200,000 cattle, would be an
infinitesimal one, insofar as it would affect the price of the United States cattle,
and my opinion would be that while there may be some effect which you could
[Mr. $. Stanley McLean.]
230 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
not calculate, it is fair to say, in the main, that the whole of that 30 per cent
was paid by the exporters in Canada, in respect of the cattle exported from
Canada to the United States.
It seems to me that the first item of policy in regard to the cattle industry
of Canada, should be to secure, if possible, free admission into the United
States. i think every-body who has considered this topic will. agree with that.
Iqo matter what views may be held in regard to the tariff generally, and how
a general tariff mav affect industry and the devclopment of this country, I do not
think anybody will disagree with that, that it is a great advantage to the cattle
industry of this cattle of this country to have free access to the United States
markets. Iqow, in connection with that, it is worth looking into, the facts which
I have just cited. Is this American tariff of any value to American cattle
raisers? There is no question that it was passed by the United States Congress
at the instance of American cattle raisers who believed it would be a benefit
to them. Is it? The facts I have just cited are the only ones that seem to me
material, that the cattle that would come frozn Canada in any case amount to
roughly one per cent, but suppose it were two per cent, suppose under free
conditions the number increased, although actually in fi,e years it amounted to
about one per cent of the cattle nmrketed in the United States. I do not think
that anybody can seriously maintain that the shutting out, the excluding of one
per cent of the cattle, would materially advance the price which would be
received by the cattle raisers of the United States. So the effect of that American
tariff, it seems to me, has been, then, that it has taken roughly 30 per cent off the
value of the Canadian cattle that have gone to the United States, and it has given
no corresponding advantage to the American cattle raisers. An advantage there
may be, and undoubtedly there is some, but it is so infinitesimal that it cannot
be calculated in cents per hundred pounds. I think, if that situation were clearly
understood by the cattle raisers of the United States, if they realized that they
were not producing enough for the home consumption of the United States, and
that the number of cattle which would be likely to come from Canada was not
sufficient to nmterially affect their prices, I think the insistence of American
cattle producers, on that protection, on that tariff, would be less strenuous than
it has been.
By Mr. Monroe:
Q. What effect do you think it might have on the future stock raising in the
United States, if this tariff were wiped out; is it not altogether likely that the
Canadian producers would go into the exporting of cattle into the United States,
to a much greater extent?--A. I think so; we had access to the United States
markets for ten years, you will remember, and during that same time we had the
tremendous stimulus that came from the high war prices, and still, there was no
tremendous advance in the production of cattle in Canada, so there would be no
effect that would bulk large after consideration of the facts. I think it would
be, it would naturally be a stimulus to cattle production in Canada, and it
would have this effect, but it would not have any effect which would be a source
of danger to the American cattle producer. That would be my estimate of the
situation.
low, the effect at the present time, of course, is that we are shut out to this
extent by the American tariff from the United States market, and our immediate
problem is, what other markets are there in the world for the surplus of
Canadian cattle, and in reviesving the world conditions, there is only one possible
market, as far as we can see which counts, and that is Great Britain. Now, we
have, during the past two years, particularly since the passing of this American
tariff, been shipping some catt.!e to Great Britain, and the shipments will
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION,S 231
APPENDIX No. 3
probably be increased as the result of the removal of the embargo, because that
will permit the introduction to Great Britain of a different type of cattle and
under different conditions. They will, as you know, be able to hold these feeder
cattle that are brought in there.
hIr. HAhlhIELL: Might I ask a question?
The CHA]RA: We had thought of allowing Mr. McLean to finish his
statement and then question him afterwards. I was going to break in and then
made a note on my paper, so I think we will allow him to finish. You were
talking about the market, and the removal of the emhargo.
The WITESS: Yes. The effect of the removal of the embargo would be
to enlarge the outlet for Canadian cattle in Great Britain to some extent. It is
not at all clear yet what the extent will be. Under the regulations, cattle will be
admitted on and after April 1, and there are already two shipments of cattle
on the ocean or sailing this week for Britain. I think you would be interested in
this, which has been quite apparent on the Toronto market within the last week.
There come to the market in Toronto, at this season of the year, sometimes rather
less than enough cattle for the Canadian trade, sometimes rather more. Now, if
we may say that 4,000 cattle a week is the number of cattle that the Canadian
tradc would normally absorb, and if there came 5,000 in a week, then the Cana-
dian trade, if it had no outlet for that extra 1,000 cattle, would be depressed by
having to absorb that extra 1,000 cattle; that is clear. It is not necessary that
an outlet, in such a season as this, in the spring of the year, when cattle are
relatively scarce, it is not necessary that an outlet should be a very broad, outlet,
in order to merely relieve the Canadian situation and maintain prices. It has
just happened within the last week that there were bought on the Toronto
market, I think, about 1,000 cattle, perhaps less, for export to England. These
cattle iust took the surplus and a little more than the surplus, over and above
the home, the domestic demand, and kept the nmrket strong, whereas if that
outlet for these 1,000 cattle had not existed, the market would have been
extremely weak. That is a thing that only an operator, perhaps, realizes, and
that many of them do not realize, that often a very small outlet has a very
important effect on the market prices. You see, in the fall of the year, when
cattle are running freely and when there are ten thousand cattle a week coming
to the market, an outlet for 1,000 cattle would have practically no effect at all.
In the fall, when your cattle are running, when the flush of production is on the
market, you need a broader outlet, but at other times, a comparatively narrow
outlet is an extremely useful thing in maintaining the stability of the prices.
In that connection, I would like to say that the interest of the packer in such
a situation is very generally misunderstood. This is parenthetical, and has nothing
to do with the broad case. It is taken for granted, frequently, and not unnatur-
ally, perhaps, that the packer all the time wants cheap cattle. He does not want
anything of the kind; the packer wants--not dear cattle--but cattle at a reason-
able price. It is much better for his business that cattle should be seven cents
a pound than four cents. When cattle, as they did during the war, get up to
15 cents a pound, he is operating under very perilous conditions, but it is much
more in the interest of the packer to have the prices fair, as it is just because
his interests are mutual with the interests of everybody in the trade, and it is
much more in the interests of the packer that prices should be maintained on
a level which gives a profit to the cattle producer, and it is for that reason and
because of that interest that I have mentioned the importance of this small out-
let for cattle to Great Britain within the last week. Now, when it comes to the
fall, Canada has a very much larger surplus of cattle to dispose
of. The British embargo, or the British market, then, for feeders, will still be
important, but I doubt if the British market--and this is just conjecture--I
[Mr. 3. Stanley McLean.]
232 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14-GEORGE V, A. 1923
doubt if the British market will afford an outlet for the cattle, for the surplu.
cattle, which Canada will have. However, to come back to the more traditional
lines of the export trade with Great Britain, as you are aware Canada formerly
had a large export trade with Great Britain, she shipped live cattle there in
quite large quantities from the years 1890 to roughly 1912. That business was
always a more or less speculative business, but that was an extremely useful out-
let for these cattle; we had no other market for them, because at that time the
United States was not an importing but an exporting cattle country, and we had
not then the market in the United States. Now, if the situation in the United
States does not change, and we still have to' find an outlet elsewhere than the
United States, it becomes important for us to study the British situation, and to
see what field exists there for our surplus Canadian cattle. That market is very
different from the United States. The United States market is a tremendously
broad one, and we have access to these markets at various points. From Winni-
peg we can ship to St. Paul or Chicago, or from Toronto we can ship to Buffalo or
New York, and the United States has always been willing to take any kind of
cattle that we had as a surplus at a price. For the inferior grades of cattle the
prices have never been high, but they have been willing to take anything. Great
Britain is entirely different. Great Britain will only take cattle of the best
quality, and she will only take them on her own terms. If we propose to
establish a permanent market in Great Britain for surplus Canadian cattle, we
must do business on the Britisher's terms. As far as live cattle are concerned,
he is more or less willing to take these at any time of the year we have them, and
he will pay us whatever they are worth on the markets of Great Britain, but if,
instead of the live cattle industry or live cattle shipments, we consider ship-
ments of dressed beef, then we come in contact with new problems altogether.
The dressed beef trade of Great Britain is established after many years of
experience, and has taken steady lines. Great Britain imports dressed beef now
from one country, and almost one country only, namely, South America. The
beef that comes from South America formerly came frozen but during the last
15 years that trade has gradually swung over until all the beef that is imported
from South America now comes chilled and not frozen, chilled; is held in a
temperature of about 32 degrees, just at the freezing point and it arrives on the
British market just chilled so that it can be easily canned and put in the shops.
The frozen beef is chilled right through and has to go into a different kind of shop
altogether. Great Britain now imports a large quantity of South American beef.
I have not the figures but they are easily available. That sells at the present time
lower than the home killed beef. British beef traders are in a different class.
those handling import beef and home killed beef and for the home killed beef
a much higher price is paid. I should say the average price for the home killed
is 9 pence halfpenny a pound and the import price of South American beef is
about 4 pence halfpenny a pound, a difference of 5 pence a pound or 10 cents in
our money.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What is the difference between chilled and frozen beef?--A. There would
not be a difference of a halfpenny or a penny a pound.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Lower.?---A. The frozen beef would be lower. The problem of the Cana-
dian who ships chilled beef to England is this. I speak with some knowledge of
this, because the Harris Abattoir made some shipments consisting of over a
million pounds. We did that because live cattle was being sold to Great Britain
and the beef sold in Great Britain at prices which should attain us a handsome
profit if we had got these prices for the chilled beef and we saw no reason why
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION,_q 233
APPENDIX No. 3
beef slaughtered in Canada should not be sold for approximately the same price
as the beef from similar cattle, which were taken over alive and slaughtered in
England, but when we got there with our chilled beef we found the English
butcher wanted to buy at apparently the same price as imported beef. He
sought to buy all imported beef at the imported price. As a matter of fact he
did not. He always paid us a premium because he recognized the beef was
superior in quality, but we had an argument all the time and there was a con-
tinual fight with the British buyer to get more for that imported beef, whereas
we maintained we should get the same price as the beef from our cattle were
bringing as if they were slaughtered in England. Chilled beef from Canada can
be delivered in Liverpool within two weeks from the date of slaughtering in
Toronto. Iow it is the opinion of Canadian butchers that that beef would not
only be as good but better for having been held in their refrigerators under con-
trolled temperature for two weeks. According to Canadian standards that
would be iust right for cutting at the end of two weeks. However, this argu-
ment went on as to what the price should be, and as a matter of fact we gradu-
ally forced up the price to a penny and a penny and a half and finally two pence
a pound over the price paid for American imported beef. We have confidence
if 'e could conform to the necess,qry conditions we could get a price that was
measurably close to the value of Canadian beef slaughtered in England, and if
we could it would be a profitable trade. At the present time it is not possible,
and the reason is the English butcher wants to buy his beef week in and week
out from the same stores. He does not want to buy Canadian beef for two or
three months in the year and go without it for ten ]nonths and the nex year
buy Canadian beef again. Canada at the present time has not the cattle to
give Great Britain beef fifty-two weeks in the year. Moreover, Canada's quality
of cattle is below the standard demanded by the British consumer. The Cana-
dian cattle raiser does not produce enough cattle and market them evenly, and
the average cattle he produces is below the standard, if he is ever going to estab-
lish a place for himself on the Br]tish market. The point came up: would it
be profitable for Canada to enter upon such a programme? My conviction in
regard to that is that most decidedly it vould not. It seems to me the great
loss to the large Canadian producer, as far as the present time is concerned is
that he markets 70 per cent of his cattle in three months in the fall. From
September until the middle of December cattle are dumped in every market,
from Edmonton, Calgary, hIoose Jaw, Toronto to Montreal, and cattle is
dumped into the markets in such number that the trade cannot possibly con-
sume that. The average cattle dumped during that time is very low in regard
to quality. If these changes were made in Canada's cattle policy and if home
cattle were bred up, if the policy was carried out, I mean cattle being marketed
evenly over the year, it would enable Canada to ship hers on any market to
which she had access, which would relieve the farmer of the loss which he must
inevitably take from the dumping of the cattle in the fall. It would promote a
great cattle fattening industry to the United States which we have not got at
the present time. The outstanding industry of the cattle trade in the United
States is the fattening industry. Through all the districts the farmers go to the
markets in St. Paul, Chicago, Sioux City, Omaha, and Kansas City to buy
feeders. Half of the market in the United States are feeders, and they arc
bought by the farmers who take them back and put them into the feed lots
and market them from the months of February to July. In Western Canada
we have no such industry at all. In Ontario we have a cattle finishing industry,
and we have had it for many years, and farmers in Ontariothe districts that
are the most thriving, and still to-day are the districts that have feed cattle year
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
234 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
in and year out, for forty years. But in the West, whatever the reason is I
don't know, but they have not that comlition.
By tle Chairman:
Q. I suppose the stock of men that live in those places has something to
do with it?--A. They were men, Britishers and Germans. They were men who
had been accustomed to those ideas, but in the West there never has been
established, there hardly has begun a great cattle finishing industry and I am
convinced that the future cattle industry in the West can never be achieved
unless with that snpplenent to the present activity. We have marketed every
Fall, throughout Alberta and Manitoba, thousands and scores of thousands,
perhaps hundreds of the very best type of feeding steers. The average breed
is not bad hnt that can be improved, but they have been in the open air since
the time they were born and they are thrifty, vith strong constitutions and these
cattle are the feeders that the cattle buyer in the middle western states will
buy above all others on account of the fact of their inherent ruggedness, and they
travel year after year from Manitoba, Winnipeg to the market of St. Paul and
Chicago, distributing feeders there. I am not expressing my own view in this.
Q. It is your view as well as that of others?--A. I believe that nmre funda-
mentally than I believe anything in regard to Canadian problems in the cattle
industT, that nmre than anything else is the solution, the establishing of a feed-
ing industry and the improving of our farms in regard to breeding. This is
not only the view of persons like myself but it is also the view of the men who
are engaged in Ontario raising and breeding, in Western Canada. A few months
ago I attended a meeting of the Live Stock Union of Western Canada and the
burden of every statement that was made was that very same thing; the penalty
Western farmers suffered from dumping their cattle on the market in the Fall
and from failing to use their own markets, to finish their own cattle and market
them during the sparser season between January. and July--in nay judgment,
Mr. Chairman, those are the broad outlines that mu.t be the base of any broad
national policy in regard to the cattle industry. We have to accept at the
beginning that the cattle industry can only be a thriving one if we greatly
increase our production. If we are going to develop export markets we must
conform to the different export demands, and I think a great deal can be done by
the proper governmental methods in securing access again to the United Stats
market. Still even if we continue to be excluded from United States market
I am satisfied we can develop a profitable outlet for our surplus beef in Great
Britain.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Some time ago this gentleman told us that the duty on dressed meats
going into the United States was 3 cents per pound. Is there any difference in
the dressed meats? Beef, pork or mutton?--A. I think there is a slight
difference. The beef I know is 3 cents and mutton 3 cents. Whether there is
a difference in pork I don't know.
Q. You also told us that approximately two hundred thousand cattle were
exported to the United States when that market was open to us?---A. Yes.
Q. Would it be fair to assume that that would be the anmunt of cattle that
would be available for export to Great Britain after the 1st of April, when the
embargo is taken off? A. The majority of this cattle Great Britain would
not take at any price.
Q. Have you any idea of the amount of cattle that would be offered for
export to Great Britain?--A. No, sir, I have not. When the first shipments
have gone--it is much too early to form any judgment. It is so tong since we
have been in that market it is much too early to torm any judgment as to what
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 235
APPENDIX No. 3
kind of cattle the British feeder wants from us and how many he will take.
Yet I don't think anybody would venture an estimate as to the nuznber of cattle
Great Britain will take.
Q. I believe some witness suggested some days ago that approximately two
hundred thousand cattle would be offered this summer?--A. Yes.
By Mr. McKag :
Q. To what extent do the United States export cattle to the British market?
---A. :None. They have not since the war. They ship no beef there.
Q. Are they largely importers?--A. They have always taken any cattle
that Canada shipped there but they don't import from ot]cr countries, except
to a small extent, from South America.
Q. Speaking of the fattening industry, has climate anything to do as a
deterrent effect? A. This cattle sold in the fall.
Q. Is that for fattening?--A. Yes.
Q. Are they pastured or inside?--A. For the nmst part I think they are
fed in the open.
Q. That would be a disability in this climate.---A. :No, I don't think so.
Q. Would there not be disability in Ontario ,qnd in the West in shipping
our live cattle even from the month of January to the month of July?--A.
Throughout the whole year, shipping live stock.
Q. During those intensely cold months, Janu:,ry, February and March?--
A. Do you mean exporting live cattle.
Q. Exporting live cattl . =-A. That wouh_l be a minor consideration but
that has been done always. It is not a consideration of the first importance,
but my opinion is, that if a permanent trade were ultimately established it
would be in chilled beef rather than in live cattle.
Q. You spoke about sending chilled beef to the British market at certain
points. After you land your meat there do you distribute your own mcat?--A.
No. According to the ]ritish phrase, we pitch it on the market. It is sold by
commission firms.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. If it were permanent you would have better facilities?--A. Yes.
Q. You suggested that seventy to seventy-five per cent 'as marketed in
three months. How dp you take care of the surplus, so as to have an even
distribution of beef? Does it go into cold storage?--A. I often wonder how
we do. Of this 70 per cent of the cattle that are exported, going out, this two
hundred thousand cattle, even still 'ith the American duty, we have large
numbers going to the United States. I don't know what the numbers were last
fall but large numbers do go. Then there is a relatively small quantity of
beef frozen for the lumber trade and the camp trade of various kinds, but in
the main the price is cheap and it just goes into consumption. If you look up
the advertisements of firns that advertise meats, you will find that retail prices
during those three months are very much lower tlan at any other period of the
year and that is the way the stuff gets consumed and they reduce the price.
Q. Consumption is heay during those three months? A. Yes.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. I suppose a good deal of that is put in cold storage for the warm months.
---A. That trade is simply in this country. It is difficult to sell frozen beef to
the retail trade in Canada. The lumber and mining camps and various outlying
industries, such as that, take a certain amount of frozen beef but the total
frozen beef trade in Canada is not liked. There is one quite important outlet
for exporting these bundles of beef, lower grades of cows, to canners and cutters.
They are shipped sometimes to Great Britain and sometimes to the continent.
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 239
APPENDIX No. 3
is that after a firm would have taken its initial losses, under existing conditions
the firm would not be established. The live stock trade can be carried on
under difficult conditions; they are willing to take such surplus as they can
get, because our farmers are willing to Lake and feed the cattle, and those cattle
because of their intrinsic merit command higher prices, which is the reward of
home-bred beef.
Q. Do you not think that that would be an important factor in developing
the live stock trade? A. It is a factor we have always had.
Q. A shipment of cattle is sent to the British markets; it is taken Lp by
the Scottish feeders, turned out for two or three months, it is then retu['md to
the markets and will kill equal to the Scottish beef? A. The fact that we have
access to these feeders, that the cattle can be taken in and fed, will be a factor
in developing a large live export trade, because heretofore cattle shipped live
to Great Britain had to be killed immediately, while now they have a double
outlet. If they have a suitable market for slaughtering, they can be slaughtered
immediately, and many of them now going over are suitable for immediate
slaughter, and if they are not they can go into feeding quarters and come back
when conditions are better.
The CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions any member of the Com-
mittee wishes to ask?
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. What is the saving in freight by shipping chilled cargoes as compared
with the live animal?--A. It is quite considerable; I do not tknow what it is
at the present time, but when we made f, hese shipments it was about $15 per
head.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Of a difference? A. Yes.
Q. I have it 44 from Winnipeg for a 1,200-pound steer, dressing at 720
pounds of dressed beef, and giving a saving of $15.20.--A. That is about it. I
said about $15 per head.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would that offset your loss in the price of the chilled beef? A. If we
could have got within $15 per head for all the cattle in those cargoes, we would
have been all right.
Q. You could not even do that?---A. :No.
The CHAIRMAN: :NOW, gentlemen, we have devoted a great deal of attention
to the steer. Let us turn to the hog now, but before we get to that let me ask
these general questions.
Q. Is there any real competition between the packers, when they are in
the market to buy what the farmer has to sell?---A. You had better ask someone
else that question, sir.
Q. Well, you have a frank countenance.---A. I will tell you the truth, sir.
Q. That is what we expect you to do; that is supposed to go without saying,
especially when a gentleman is under oath.--A. Unless you are different to the
ordinary audience, as you want it, the facts are that the competition in the
packing industry to buy live stock is keener I think than the competition that
obtains in any other industry heretofore in Canada. That is what the packing
industry is suffering from at the present time. I do not need to tell you that
they are suffering, because all you have to do is to read the papers. There are
too many plants for the amount of live stock, and the competition for live stock
is very keen.
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
240 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is it just as keen to-day?--A. Yes, it is lust as keen to-day.
Q. I am told by butchers that you gentlemen do not meet on Tuesday, but
that you meet on Sunday, and that the price changes on :Monday morning, and
that it is uniform from all the packing industries. Is that true?--A. No. I do
not know what you talking about.
Q. You are not a man who attends Sunday meetings? A. No, sir. The
competition is so keen that it is gradually making the conditions extremely bad
in the packing houses, and for that reason our ultimate relief is in greater
quantities of live stock; that is the solution of our problems, the same as it is
the solution of the farmer's problens, and of Canada's problems.
By tle Chairman:
Q. You made a statement which has redounded greatly to the honour
of the packers in Canada when you stated that their attitude was a desire that
the producers should get a fair and stable price for their products, in order that
such stable price might ensure a stable supply in the future?--A. Exactly.
Q. That appeals to me as a very reasonable outlook. Has that been the
attitude of the packers for years past?---A. I think so. There has been a great
deal of misunderstanding between the packers and the farmers. I do not know
that it is a thing that is easy to go over and debate, but it has been going on a
long time, and in some cases the criticisms were wrong on both sides. The
attitude of criticism between partners never produces good results, anyway.
While I do not know all the faults in times past, I do know that the packers
paid low prices to the farmers. But the packers have nothing to do with the
prices, absolutely nothing.
Q. The contest between the buyer and the seller in the market sets the
price?--A. That is it, and there must always be a contest between the buyer and
the seller. What I am saying absolutely stands alongside of this other fact, that
every load of cattle we buy as low as we can. We send our buyer out, and he
tries to save five or ten cents per hundred pounds on his purchases. But that
does not at all conflict with the other statement I made, that we like to see the
prices of products yield a fair profit to the man who raises them. What we need
above all things is an outlet.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. On the markets of Toronto there is a great variation one week with
another as to prices of meat, yet we find in the butcher shops, the retail shops.
the price of that product is fairly constant?--A. Yes.
Q. Have you any comment to make upon that situation? A. Yes. That
is what one I think would expect. The price the packer pays on the market is
determined by the number of cattle that are on the market. For instance, I
was taking cattle to Toronto just before I came here. We have 500 there
to-day. We have a short run there this week. The packers have an outlet for
more beef than they can get; the market is up from 20 to 40 cents per hundred.
or from $20 to $40 a bullock.
Q. But it goes up a certain amount in a week, and the ne week the price
varies; one would hardly expect that, would he?--A. Well, the retailer in the
main sets the price. The prices follow the broad movements rather than the
daily movements, in the retail trade.
Q. I notice this also; if there is an apparent scarcity of beef, the price goes
up in 24 hours, as far as the retailers are concerned; they boost their prices right
up, but if there is surplus they do not bring their prices down for months and
[Mr. $. Stanley McLean.]
242 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. You mean we can get the hog to the consumer in Great Britain and have
it according to his taste, equally as well as the Danes?--A. Yes. Take
Western Canada,, the Province of Alberta for instance, the farmer there sells
his oats and his barley for whatever the market offers; I do not know what it is
at the present time, but it nets him back on his farm perhaps twenty cents a
bushel, that is, for oats.
The CHAIRMA/: What is it, Mr. Gardiner?
Mr. GARDINER: Perhaps 35 cents a bushel; I don't know lust what it is at
the present time.
WITNESS: At any rate, if he ships out his grain as grain, he has to pay
the long freight haul to Fort William, then the lake freights beyond that, whereas
if he feeds his grain on his own farm lie converts 5 pounds of grain into one pound
of hog, and as a consequence makes a tremendous saving on that score. Besides
that, he improves his own farm bv reason of the manure, and he produces a
commodity for which, on the who[e there is a more stable market than there
is for grain, so I do not think there is any doubt as to Canada's capacity to
compete with Demnark, and to produce a bacon type of hog more cheaply.
She is our greatest competitor on the British market.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. In speaking about the class of hog produced, what percentage of our hogs
would come up to bacon requirements, or the standard of the Danish bacon?
A. It varies in the different parts of Canada. In Ontario, I should say per-
haps 20 per cent of the hogs conform to the best bacon type. If Dr. Grisdale
were here, he would know more about this than I do. In the West, a very small
percentage; five per cent would be putting it high.
Q. For the simple reason that there is no attention given to the breeding
of the bacon type'..' A. Yes.
Q. They breed a type that will get ready quickly? A. Yes.
Q. Is there any disability that you have in competing on the British market
with other countries, in regard to the curing of the bacon, on account of our
distance?--A. Yes, that does constitute a disability. The Dane can ship from
his packing house in Denmark one day, and it will be delivered in England
the next day but one.
Q. And consumed within the week? A. Consumed very promptly, and of
course that is an advantage--but that is an advantage which will be minimized
as time goes on, and transportation facilities improve.
By Mr. Gardier:
Q. Is it. not a fact that these so-called Wiltshire sides in Great Britain are
being taken by the curers there and finished off to suit the British market?--
A. They are smoked there, that is all; they are not cured.
Q. Can you give us any information as to the effect of feed on hogs for the
class of bacon that you would require for butcher sides.--A. I am not at all an
expert on that, but the type of feeds that are prevalent in Canada are the
feeds that are the best calculated to produce a bacon hog. I am thinking of
oats, and barley.
By the Clairman:
Q. Peas?--A. Peas, of course, are the very. best hog feed, but they are not
used very much now, because they are too expensive.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. I think there is an idea prevalent, more particularly in Western Canada,
that that very type of feed that you have mentioned namely, oats and barley,
[Mr. J. Stanley lfcLean.]
244 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. When you speak of grading in a packing house, why do you not get
the producers to adopt better breeds of hogs, and raise our percentage of bacon
hogs? Do you think a system could be worked out by which you could grade
hogs in a packing house and carry it back to the producer, so he would see tha
it was a benefit to him?--A. Yes, I think it can. I would like to repeat that I
am only expressing my own opinion on this, but I have thought of it a good
deal. One cannot work out the details, because we have not taken the first
step; here is what happens in practice in packing house operation. We buy a
deck of hogs, they are generally bought in decks, about 80 hogs, from a commis-
sion firm, say, John Smith. We pay John Smith for these hogs, and do not
know from whom these hogs came. If the hogs were to be graded in the packing
house, the procedure would have to be something like this: Instead of paying
the full purchase price for these hogs, we would pay John Smith, say, 80 pe
cent of the price, that would be a price of ten cents per pound for the best grade
hogs, for select bacon hogs, or ten cents per pound, if you follow out the practice,
for what we call thick, smooth hoes, and a premium of a cent a pound for the
select hog, and a discount of so much for different grades. As these hogs were
sent over the scale, they would be graded. There is no difficulty about that;
that can be done very accurately by a man who has been practising it only a
short time. That is the great advantage of grading on the scale. After that,
they would bc worked out according to scale; the premiums and discounts would
be worked out. Whatever sum was coming to John Smith in respect of that
deck of hogs would be sent to him. The reason we could only pay 80 per cent
and not the whole 100 per cent of the purchase price would be this, that he migh
have ten prenaium hogs and fifty discount hogs, and instead of giving him a
premium on the whole deck, we would have to make a discount, so the packer
would have to protect himself in so,no such way as I have mentioned, by
advancing 80 per cent. However, the final statement would be made, ordinarily.
within twenty-four hours of the time purchased. In regard to getting that back
to the farmer, that involves still further problems, and the simplest way that 1
can think of is for the farmer to have tags, probably for the provincial govern-
ments to issue tag numbers to the farmers, and a record of these tags could be
kept. That might be done, or the farmer might put individual marks on the
hogs, but the problem of getting it back to the farmer is a difficult one, but it
is not by any means insuperable.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. It would involve considerable book-keeping?--A. Yes, but it would b
worth it.
Q. There has always seemed to me, Mr. McLean, to be a very wide spread
between the live hog price, or dressed hog price, and cured bacon in this country,
as compared with our Old Country spread.--A. Yes.
Q. What would your hogs, costing, for instance, 8 cents a pound, live weight,
what would that represent as dressed pork, say, your thick smooth hog?--A.
I would be very pleased to send you the cut-out sheet, as we call it, showing how
they work out, but I would rather not give you that off-hand, because I am
not close enough to know. I never do it myself, and I have not the figures in
my head. All I know, and can assure you of, is this, that the ultimate profit
that is made on that hog, whatever the reason is, is quite small, and that no
unreasonable prices are charged, that is over the year, by packing houses, and
the fact is that packing houses do not make unreasonable profits. I suppose
that is the point of your question, and I would like to take advantage of this
[Mr. $. Stanley McLeaa.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 245
APPENDIX No. 3
opportunity just to convince you on that point. I will not select the last two
years, when nearly all packing houses have lost money, but I will select the
very best years, and in the best years a profit of a quarter of a cent per pound
on all the products sold is a very satisfactory profit. On a hog, that means about
a quarter of, say, 160 pounds, 40 cents.
By the Chairman:
Of course, you do turn over your capital quite often?--A. That is the
point.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You are selling bacon to-day in England at less than in Canad?--A.
Yes, we are making heavy losses on bacon in England to-day.
Q. And charging the Canadian consumer to make up for it? A. No, I do
not see why you say that at all. I want to make that plain. We are getting
all we can in Canada.
Q. When I have a loss in this department, naturally if I have an opportunity
to make it up in another, I do.---A. No, that is bad reasoning, and I can refute
you, because you were telling me yesterday about the farmer not being able to
make up his losses. Neither can the packer or anybody else. We are controlled
by the markets, by the markets to which we have to sell.
Q. But the farmer has no protected market.--A. Yes, but he has a distinct
market.
Q. Not protected?---A. Neither have the packers.
By the Chairman:
Q. Just let me ask you these questions. What are you selling bacon for
in England at this time?--A. I should say that the average price of the Canadian
bacon sold in England last week was about 80 shillings per 112 pounds.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Wiltshire sides?--A. Yes.
By the C]airman:
Q. That is how much per pound?--A. I would have to take time to figure
that out. it is 80 shillings per 112 pounds.
Q. That are you selling the same type of bacon for in Canad?--A. We
do not sell the same type at all; there is no Wiltshire trade in Canada.
Q. The nearest type of bacon, corresponding to Wiltshire?---A. That is a
point that I am glad to have an opportunity to explain, because it leads to a great
deal of misunderstanding. Bacon in England means Wiltshire sides, and the
price in England last week was roughly 80 shillings per 112 pounds. Bacon in
Canada means a side. You know what that is. Or a deck, which is a very small
percentage out. of the middle of the hog.
Q. The finer cut?---A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me what is the price in England and what is the price in
Canada for that part of the side which we call bacon in Canada?A. I am
sorry I cannot but I would be very pleased to send it to you and any other parti-
culars you wish in regard to bacon. I will give you a complete cut out, showing
our complete cut out of the complete product of the hog, if you are interested.
Q. We are interested in finding out what they sell for, say in the land of
Sales' birth, in Nottingham and say in Toronto.
Mr. SAES: I will gi'e you a strange experience I had. Before I came here
I used to cure my own bacon and my own ham and sell it to customers and buy
[Mr. J. Stanley lcLean.]
246 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14- GEORGE V, A. 1923
for my own eating Davies' ham, and I used to buy that in the year 1900 at 12 and
13 cents a pound from the retailer in England, after the retailer and the whole-
saler had made a profit on it. I came to Toronto in the same year and went
into Davies' own shops in Toronto and they asked me 20 cents a pound, and !
wondered what kind of a country I had come to and I have been wondering a good
deal ever since. Is not that a strange thing? I think that holds yet to a large
extent, at 86s. per cwt. for Wiltshire sides, and they are considered to be choice
and that works out at a little less than 18 cents a pound per day for the Wilt-
shirt sides.---A. These Wiltshirc sides that we sell for 86s. a swt. weight, I am
letting you in on a trade secret now, cost us laid down there about 96s.
Q. What would your price be to the Canadian consumer?--A. It is set by
entirely different conditions. It is set by the play of competition by those
people who have bacon to sell, all of us getting as much as we can.
Q. No arrangement?--A. Absolutely none. I have told you that before.
Q. There are so many words for these things. There are gentlemen's agree-
ments and arrangements, so perhaps you have another word for it.--A. If you
would lay all your words on the table I would say no to them because I would
like to have that part of the discussion over.
Q. When I said the spread seems large I am giving my experience as an old
country butcher, that when it passes 6 pence a pound, we used to sell the bacon
from those hogs at 16 cents, and the lard at 20 cents and the ham at 20 cents.
The spread has always been very much greater. I never could understand it.
---A. I would not like to offer an offhand explanation of all these difficulties
because it might be wrong. I am willing to give you the cut out, the price on
these things, which is the best statement that enables you to judge as to whether
or not the prices at which stuff is selling are fair. Each week all the hogs that
we kill are put on to a cut out sheet and the cost of each in the cut worked out
on that. If we kill two thousand hogs per week, there are 50 different products
that come out of the hog and we don't get anywhere by calling attention to
one of these products to discuss whether it is a fair price because it depends on
the price of the other 49 products, but if later you wish to go into this further I
would be glad to come back with such sheets, or any other packer in Canada
would be glad to come and give you the detailed information that you wish.
The CrAm,r: We might avail ourseh'es of that offer? A. Well it stands.
I will he glad to take it up at any time.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. We were very much interested in the development of the packing trade
from this point of view. We find that animals are shipped two or three hundred
miles, and as is the case in the West, five or six hundred miles, and the beef
is sent back to the butcher. It dos not look to me to be an economical process.
Perhaps you can tell us why it developed.---A. I think I can tell you whether
or not it is an economical process, because I don't think it would have happened
if it had not been an economical process. That is the only conclusion I can
arrive at. What are all the considerations behind it I cannot tell you, but I can
give you some idea of the chief ones. They are brought up in a small Ontario
town and there were two or three butchers bought their cattle, each of them
had a slaughtering house on the outskirts of the town and they slaughtered
their cattle there and sold their meats, and when I became connected with the
packing business twenty years ago that was the universal practice. There may
be what would be called a wholesale butcher, who would buy the cattle, slaughter
them and sell them locally to the local butchers but he would never go further
afield than his local town. That has been revolutionized in most towns, and he
evid.ently thinks it is better to buy meat, not cattle. If you walk into an
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 247
APPENDIX No. 3
ordinary butcher shop in an ordinary town in Ontario to-day and asked him,
"Why do you buy beef instead of slaughtering them?" he would say, "I have
not got time to go through the country and buy them and besides I am not
in touch with the cattle market. I might pay five or ten dollars more than it
is worth. I used to buy steers. I don't do it any longer." However the chief
argument is with him that he has not got the time. "But wouldn't it pay you
and save the freight? You are here at this point. The cattle are brought in
right past your door, driven along the streets, loaded on cars, shipped to
Toronto and slaughtered and brought back to you. You could cut out the
freight to Toronto and the freight back." The explanation to that I think is
chiefly this question about time and the staff the butcher would have to main-
tain in order to do that, a staff large relatively to the number of cattle he has
to kill. He would have to keep an extra man for that and after that the chief
e.xplanation lies in the fact that there are very considerable economies to be
made by the centralized slaughtering of the animals.
Q. Such a system as you spoke of has never grown up in the Old
Country? A. No, it has not.
Q. They still maintain the old theory and the old practice of saving the
freight?---A. Yes.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. They have 40 million people in a small area. We have not the popula-
tion.---A. That argument would seem to work both ways. There is such a
large market there that I have often wondered that centralized slaughtering
had not been introduced in Great Britain to a much greater extent than it has.
There is centralized slaughtering at all the ports, Liverpool, Manchester, Glas-
gow and formerly Bedford, but at those ports--
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Vhat is the freight on beef to any of those towns? That is the freight
to Pembroke?--A. I suppose it would be about 60 cents a hundred pounds. I
am not sure.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Distribution would be a very important factor in your present method.
Shipping cattle to Toronto, shipping the produce back to the butchers. I mean
the cost of shipping back cattle again all over the country. Freight would be
very costly? A. Yes.
Q. I can understand that if the population was dense the distribution would
be reduced to an economical point. Where the population is scattered the cost
increases.--A. The cost of distributing from Toronto in a sparsely settled district
would be smaller than at a large point, but there are corresponding difficulties
in a sparsely settled district. The butcher would have the same difficulty in
operating by himself in that. The point in regard to change in the same
system is that it is brought about not by the volition of the packing houses
but by the volition of the retail butcher. The decision of that problem is in
his hands, not in the packing house. If he thinks he can buy more cheaply
locally than he can buy from us he will do it. He only buys from us if it is
cheaper and that is the reason I said it was an economical movement, not
uneconomic, because the decision is left with the man who is best able to judge
whether it is cheaper to him or not.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Would there be reason to fear if he did not buy your beef some man
across the street whose beef would be locally killed beef and the man across
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
248 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
the street might take his custom away by selling better beef. You would con-
sider it good business to put it into the man at a lower price than the fellow
on the opposite side 6f the street could sell it at?---A. I realize all that argu-
ment is something I don't know anything about because it does not occur. We
send our travellers out, and all I know is that we press them to make sales all
the time at a profit. I am not saying we don't make sales at a loss but we do
it in spite of our efforts.
Q. Do you not have greater economies in centralized slaughtering?--A. I
think the chief factor in that is that the butcher now has a different kind of
job than he had twenty years ago. He stays in his shop and endeavours, by
giving good service to his customers, to develop his trade under his own eye
and he allows the slaughter house to do the slaughtering of the cattle.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. And the distribution passes unto the consumer? A. Yes.
Q. And that naturally increases the price to the consumer?--A. If there are
extra costs, of course it does.
Q. He has to bear the cost of your commercial traveller and the freight
both ways as against saving centralized slaughter? A. Those are all parts of
the system and they have to be borne. I should think that the presumption is
that the costs are less. Otherwise that system, would not have replaced the
previous system.
Q. It costs $10 to ship a steer from the vicinity of Saskatoon to Winnipeg.
:Now we ship the beef back 500 miles. I don't know what the freight rate is but
it must be $1 a hundred. It must be a cent a pound and I think that I can go
there and save money on the abattoir process. That seems to me an economical
waste? A. There is always a difficulty, lemember--
Q. If such a thing is possible? A. I don't like such a matter to hinge on
an individual case that I don't understand. There is no point in taking it, except
under the broad principles of this, and this revolution in the meat trade has
occurred. I think the presumption that I have made is a fair presumption, has
occurred because on the whole the butcher gets his beef cheaper and I don't
want to go beyond that, to the argument of individual cases I don't know any-
thing about.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Is there a fixity of prices to those butchers in the different towns. It has
been stated that the price at which the butcher sells--take a town l:,ke Pembroke,
that they all have to sell the same quality of beef at the same price, subject to
pains or penalties if they do not.---A. I have been in the packing house business
20 years and I never heard of it. You can imagine that being done probably
but I never heard of it in my 20 years in the packing house business. I am not
claiming that packing house people are of a very superior virtue to other people.
I say following the theory of common sense they are working on that basis in
the working out of their business. How can a packer from Toronto come in to
a town like Pembroke and do that to work out their problems?
Q. He could do so if there had been an agreement by all the packers.--A.
The other side of that is this, that if there are no such gentlemen's agreements
and never were, that you are not going to arrive at anything that is beneficial
to the live stock industry or for Canadians generally by following out a lot of
theories that are based on such agreements, that have their inception with that
idea.
By the Chairman:
Q. Your testimony is to the effect that the packers have never said to the
retailers: "We will sell our product under the theory that you will sell at a
[Mr. $. Stanley McLean.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 249
APPENDIX No. 3
certain fixed advance over the price which we sell to you."mA. Yes. That has
never been suggested by any packer to any retailer in Canada.
Q. That system we are finding out and I believe in the course of this inquiry
we will find out in more particulars, exists in many lines of business, but you
protest that the packers are as innocent as babes unborn of having followed such
practice.--A. That is hardly fair phrasing, I submit, Mr. Chairman, because--
Q. I don't want to put words in your mouth which are at all unfair. You
tell us as one serious gentleman to other serious gentlemen that that practice
does not obtain.--A. Absolutely.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. It is your practice to sell to every butcher in the town who wants to buy,
or every retailer? A. Yes.
Q. Do you rfuse any?--A. Except when we are afraid of their credit.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Do you carry on a credit business?---A. We attempt to collect in 7 days.
Our average of outstanding accounts is about 12 or 13.
The CzAmAz: That is a happy business?--A. Our percentage of bad debts
is about one-tenth of one per cent.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Your buyers go on the market. They pay different prices for different
grades of live stock? A. That is heifers as compared with steers.
Q. In quoting the prices of your product, as you sell to the retailer through-
out the country, do you quote any difference as between steer and heifer beef?--
A. Yes, that is if we are paying a different price alive. These differentials be-
tween various grades keep constantly showing between supply and demand and
our prices constantly changed in correspondence to the cost to ourselves.
Q. There is a difference between heifer and steer beef in the cost the retailer
pays to you?--A. There is always at a time when there is a difference between
the price of heifers and the price of steers alive.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. There generally is?---A. At the present time there would not be very
much, I think what Mr. Elliott has in mind is that cows and heifers were cheap
as compared with steers. There was nmch more than a usual differential last
Fall and that was due to the different conditions. There was no outlet for
heifers to the United States and there was an unlimited outlet for steers to the
United States.
Q. Did you include any heifers in your chilled meat shipment?---A. Yes.
We got better returns on cows than anything else. The cows are better than the
heifers and the heifers better than the steers.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Why this discrimination that exists on the market to-day, that exists
between steers and heifers? A. According to the outlets we have for them, at
whatever prices we can sell them, they reflect back on the cost.
Q. What I don't see is this, that if the beef is as good why should it not
sell at the same price or why should you not pay the same price for it?--A. The
man who determines whether it is good or not is the butcher.
The CzAmnz: It is 20 minutes after five and there are one or two
aspects of the live stock business that I think we would like to touch if the
gentlemen are finished about the steers.
[]Vlr. J. Stanley ]cLean.]
254 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You export eggs to the United States?--A. No, sir, we do not export any
eggs to the United States. There is no export trade to the United States; their
eggs are cheaper than ours.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Where are eggs principally imported from?---A. The United States.
Q. Any from China?---A. I do not know of any.
The CHAIRMAN: Any further questions about eggs, so that Mr. McLean can
get away to Toronto to-night?
By Ho. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. How about the export of eggs to Great Britain; is it not a fact that our
eggs bring a higher price than American eggs?---A. I think so. I think that has
been accomplished by the Canadian system enforced by the Dominion Govern-
ment.
Q. The quality of eggs coming in from the United States is very much better
than it was a year ago? A. Yes.
I-Ion. hlr. TOLMIE: I think I have noticed that at the place I eat; they have
not that old-fashioned flavour they had years ago.
By the Chairman:
Q. How about the manufacture of Oleo, Mr. McLean?-A. I am pleased to
have an opportunity of saying a word upon that question.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. Before we leave the egg question, I would like to say that a year ago last
winter I happened to be in a town in Western Canada. where there were a couple
of cars billed for the United States termed Canadian Special Eggs. I went into
a store a few hours after seeing those two cars of eggs, and I found they were
selling in that store United States eggs marked " special ". There was a piece of
evidence that seemed to me to be raher remarkable. Here we were shipping out
Canadian eggs to the United States marked " special" and our store-keepers
were having sold to them from the abattoir United States eggs marked " special "
Do you suppose there is any great prevalence of that practice? A. I doubt it.
I never heard of Canadian eggs going to the United States.
Q. I saw those two cars there myself. A. They might have been eggs that
had been shipped from the United States into Canada, and for some reason were
refused and were being returned.
Q. Those two cars were shipped out to the United States, they were shipped
out from the same cold storage plant from which the United States special eggs
were bought by the retailer.--A. I cannot offer you any explanation. I never
heard of Canadian eggs going to the United States.
Mr. SES: Whose abattoir would that be, Mr. Gardiner?
]Vr. GARDINER: The question is rather irrelevant, Mr. Sales.
The CAmAN: I did not hear the question, I was busy at the moment.
Are there any further questions to ask Mr. McLean?
Mr. GARDINER: He represents a firm that manufactures oleomargarine, Mr.
Chairman.
By the Chairman:
Q. Tell us about oleomargarine, Mr. McLean.--A. I am very pleased t.o
have an opportunity of saying a word about oleomargarine.
[Mr. J. Stanley McLean.]
ACRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 255
APPENDIX No. 3
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Do you make oleomargarine?---A. Yes, sir. I think in 1918 legislation
was passed. Before that time the manufacture and sale of oleomargarine in
Canada had been forbidden. During the war, and for a couple of years following
the war, when there was such an intense demand for butter in Europe, a great
deal, a very large quantity of our butter was shipped to Europe, and for that
reason very large quantities of oleomargarine were consumed in Canada. We
manufactured at that time quite large quantities. Since that time the amount
has varied from year to year and from season to season. At the present time
the quantity that is being made and sold in Canada is much less than during
the war years, but it is still considerable.
I need not tell you what opposition there has been to oleomargarine. What
I want to do is to tell you what I conceive to be the problems, the national
problems that are involved in this thing, I would like you to think that I am
not advocating any special interests, the interests of the manufacturers or the
dealers in oleomargarine; I am trying to think of what our national issues arc.
We do not consider that it is good business for us as a country to exclude any
wholesome food. I have never heard that argument seriously advanced by
anybody. The test that is ordinarily made in respect of a food we propose to
introduce into Canada is this: Is it sound, is it wholesome? The facts in regard
to oleomargarine are so widely accepted and have been accepted by so many
countries for so long a time that it is hardly necessary to discuss the merits of
margarine on that basis. It is a sound food, and there is no gainsaying that.
The man who disputes the soundness and the healthfulness of oleomargarine
might as well talk about the world not being round. It has been settled long ago.
Every civilized country in the world accepts oleomargarine.
. What is it made of?--A. It is made almost altogether of vegetable
and animal fats churned in milk. At the present time the predominating factor
is Oleo oil, which as you know is a beef fat. Oleo oil is produced from the
selected parts of beef animals, reduced by a certain process, in which is is kept
scrupulously sound and sweet. All fats, as you are aware, consist of various
ingredients at different melting points. Beef tallow or the fat that comes out
of the beef animal is divided up by this (3leo process into two fats at different
melting points, and these are separated by applying different melting points.
One is Oleo oil, the other is Oleo stearin. Nobody disputes the wholesomeness
of either of these products; there cannot be any dispute abou.t them. Oleo stearin
enters into shortening, without question.
Mr. Clmirrnan:
Q. In what form?--A. Well, Crisco is a shortening.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. How much? A. Why not mention Domestic Shortening? Each firn
has its own brand. Our brand is Domestic Shortening, and into that brand goes
our steirne.
Q. Do you import your animal fats, or do you use Canadian? A. We use
Canadian so long as they will suffice, and they have more than sufficed for a
number of years.
During the war we imported quite large quantities of oleomargarine from
the United States, because the outlets for margarine were greater than we
could produce out of our own oil.
Q. Where do you get the vegetable oil?--A. That is c)ttonseed oil and is
bought in the United States. It is an oil that is produced from crushing cotton
seeds. That is also allowed free into Canada and is very extensively used iu
[Mr. $. Stanley lcLean.]
256 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
the manufacture of other edible products, for instance shortening. Ordinary
shortening consists of cottonseed oil compounded with beef steirne. These are
bhe two chief ingredients in oleomargarine. The steirne and the cottonseed oil
are very extensively used, and have been for years and years in the production
of commodities the wholesomeness of which has never been challenged. This
0leo oil is the same in essence as far as wholesomeness is concerned as steirne.
It is another component of the original steer fat. That is what Oleo is composed
of.
Q. How much butter do you use?--A. That varies, according to the demand.
I think for the last two years there has been practically no butter used in the
manufacture of Oleo in Canada; we have not used any, and I doubt if anybody
else has.
Q. In milk or milk products? A. All these fats we churn in milk.
Q. Do you use whole milk or skimmed milk?--A. No skimmed milk.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. After the butterfat is taken out of it?--A. There is variation in the
product. They are put out at different times. We use whole milk at times,
and at times we use skimmed milk.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. What is the obiect of churning this milk?--A. The milk is treated as
it is in butter. The object of churning in milk is to get it to a better flavour.
The object of churning it in milk is to get that characteristic butter flavour;
we do not get an exact butter flavour, but we get a flavour approaching it.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. That is the popular flavour; without that it would not take at all?--A.
This is a butter substitute.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. A butter substitute? A. Yes. If I have convinced you in regard to
the wholesomeness, the rest is easy. Oleo is selling to-day for 22 cents a pound.
By the Chairman:
Q. As against what?--A. As against 53 cents for butter.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is that the wholesale price?---A. 53 cents.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. So that all these prices are wholesale?---A. Yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. Let me ask this question. Does oleo come into competition with creamery
butter of a good type?---A. It is difficult to answer that, but I would say scarcely
at all. It is not used by the same people; the people who buy oleo buy it for two
purposes; some use it for table use; those people could not afford to buy creamery
butter, at any rate it would cost them very much more. The most general use to
which oleo is put is shortening, making cakes and so on. :For that purpose it is
just as good as creamery butter, and a great many people use it who would
otherwise use creamery butter. I would not be surprised if your wife cooked with
creamery butter.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Is it better than these other brands of shortening for cooking purposes?
--A. I cannot say.
[IWr. J. Stanley McLean.]
260 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. What would it compete with to-day? A. Iotten dairy butter.
Q. Is it desirable to continue the manufacture of that dairy butter?--A.
Of course not.
Q. What would you do with the crean, if you stopped the manufacture of
it?--A. It would go into the creamery.
Q. And be made into first class butter? A. Yes.
By Mr. Cahlwell:
Q. These factories have been put up with the distinct understanding that
they are only allowed to make it for one year; it has been extended for one year
at a time. It is natural to suppose that the manufacture was quite limited.
If the limit was taken off, if it was permissible to make oleomargine in Canada
for any length of ime, is it not fair to say that it would be manufactured in
greater quantities than it is at the present time, and that it would be a greater
competitor of butter?---A. That question involves general and national interests.
The chief dairy countries in Europe are Holland and Denmark. They manu-
facture creamery butter a great deal more, relatively speaking, than Canada
does. They export it to England, and consume this Oleo. The result of making
this regulation permanent would be that more margarine would from year to
year be consumed, and I think it would be a good thing for Canada, in fact I
am sure of it.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. They are seriously considering the stopping of it?---A. How can the
national interests be iniured by getting for 22 cents what otherwise :'ou will
pay 53 cents for?
The CAmM*: "A Daniel come to judgment." Some of us feel very
strongly along these lines in regard to a protective tariff.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. How is the price of oleomargarine affected by the price of butter, that
is to say, when it goes up does the price of Oleo follow?--A. :Not by any means
in comparison; for instance, in the last six weeks butter has gone up twenty
cents a pound, and Oleo the same way but not to the same extent.
The C,mM.x: It is after six o'clock now, gentlemen. We will not meet
to-night. I think I may for myself and for you thank Mr. McLean, the witness.
for the very valuable information he has given us, and I can assure him that we
appreciate it very highly.
We will lncet to-morrow morning at eleven o'clock.
(The Committee adjourned until Thursday, March 22, at 11 o'clock.)
I-IOVSE OF COMMONS,
COMMITTEE loohl 268,
THURSDAY, March 22, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to enquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 11 a.m., Mr. McMaster, the Chairman, presiding.
D. W. LEDINGHAM called and sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Ledingham, what is your full name?--A. David W. Ledingham.
Q. And you live where?--A. St. John, New Brunswick.
[Mr. $. Stanley hleLean.]
262 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. In 19227 A. This is 1923---yes, in 1922. You remember, the Cicilian
left St. John, voyage upon voyage.
Q. About three trips? A. Yes, sometimes, I think, with as high as 8,000
or 10,000 barrels.
Q. It was very limited?---A. Yes. Of course, they loaded directly from
the cars to the ship.
Q. What is your rate on potatoes to Cuba?--A. It varies. There is no
fixed rate, it is an open market rate.
Q :From week to week?--A. No, from boat to boat, when we can fix a
charter.
Q. How many sailings have you put out of St. John this winter?---A. We,
I think, have had 18 boats" I have not the figures.
Q. You do not know the quantity of potatoes shipped out of there this
winter? A. Yes, 800,000 bushels, shipped from St. John this winter, up to the
last sailing which was on the 4th of March, I think.
Q. That is. to Cuba?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. There has been another warehouse established to St. John for this pur-
pose? A. Yes, a very splendid one.
Q. _v whom?--A. The Federal Government, I understand.
Q. And the other shiIlgers are ablc to ship through it this year?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Arc you people lmndling all the potatoes shipped from St. John?--A. No,
Q. Just handled through this Porter, Hatfield, Gallagher warehouse?--A. No,
also out of this government shed as well.
Q. You have not handled them all?---A. No, sir.
Q. You say there is no fixed rate; how is that arrived at?--A. We start
out to charter a steamer.
Q. You do not own the steamshils; they are not your boats?---A. No, sir, it
is done mostly with foreign bottoms,Norwegian steamers, which are able to operate
at lower csts than American or British steamers. They have lower wages
and lower operating expenses and lower capital expenses, I believe.
Q. Shipping between the same two points?---A. These boats--I will explain
--they arc owned in Norway, Sweden, Denmark and the Scandinavian coun-
tries. They come to North America for a period and enter into an arrangement
by a time charter. They will charter for maybe $1.40 a deadweight ton for
a month, to certain companies in the United States or Great Britain, and these
companies trade with them.
By Mr. Hamell:
Q. Mr. Ledingham, are these commonly known as tramp steamers? A. Yes,
small trump steamers, because they only lift from 1,800 to 3,000 tons; they are
small shiis, et tonnage running from 900 to 1.200 or 1,300 tons.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Have you had any correspondence with any department of the Govern-
ment here.with regard to no interference with your handling potatoes out of the
port. of St. John?
The C:m_: I did not catch that question.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. I asked if Mr. Ledingham or any member of the Furness-Withy Com-
pany has ha.d any correspondence with the Government here, with any depart-
ment of the Government here, asking that they would not interfere with these
shipments out of St. John by the Furness-Withy Company?--A. I have no recol-
lection of it.
[Mr. D. W. Ledingham.]
sir.
sir.
266 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 192:3
Q. Although there are a number of shippers in New Brunswick who would
like to ship to Cuba?A. No doubt.
Q. Do you know anything about the arrangement as to who a cargo was
delivered to in Cuba?--A. I don't know their selling arrangements.
Q. You do know that there is a potato combine in Cuba?---A. I do.
Q. To whom the firms you are shipping for deliver their goods?---A. They
are always telling me that they have to fight the combine, but whose combine it
is I do not know.
By The Chairman:
Q. Do they use that argument when they want to get a vessel from you at
a lower price?--A. Yes, when they want to get a lower price. They may have
been fighting the combine, and then saying that they have to make a sacrifice.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. There is a coxnbine?A. There is a coxnbine in Cuba. As you have said,
there always has been in Cuba a combine in the potato business.
Q. You realize that there is a combine in New Brunswick in the potato
business?---A. I do not.
Q. You said a moment ago that you did not know which combine I meant.--
A. I did not catch you quickly enough upon that point. I meant that I did not
know which combine it was. There are two combines in Cuba.
Q. There is one, that is an independent company, the firm you deliver for
delivers to the combine?--A. I don't know.
Q. But suppose that is so?--A. They are going to deliver to those frown
whom they can get the most money for their potatoes.
Q. I have been informed, very credibly I believe, that the combine in Cuba
refused to accept potatoes off your vessels in Cuba; if there are 500 sacks shipped
to an independent shipper in Cuba, and your vessel must deliver to the combine
in Cuba, possibly you do not know anything about it? A. No, sir; I do. not
know anything about their selling arrangements.
Q. You do not charter a vessel to any other firm shipping out of New
Brunswick except the firm known as Porter, Hatfield, Gallagher & Clark at the
present time?---A. And Estey.
Q. But Estey is not in with Gallagher? A. I think he is. He was'in our
office the other day with reference to a shipment on one of our steamers.
Q. I thought you told us a few minutes ago that you would not ship for
Cuba. without a combination of those four shippers?--:.. I also told you that
other shippers came in from time to time.
Q. Very recently? A. Yes.
Q. They did not until a month ago?---A. About a month ago.
The CIffAIRIAN: Are there any other questions anybody wishes to ask?
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many lines of vessels are there out of St. John?--A. There is the
Donaldson. the C.P.R., they have their ifldividual lines to Liverpool, South-
ampton, Hamburg, London; then there is the Intercontinental Steamship Com-
pany going to London, Rotterdam and Hamburg.
Q. Never mind 'here they go, tell us the companies.---A. How many com-
panies, do you mean?
Q. Yes.--A. About eight or nine.
Q. Do you have a little friendly gathering to discuss matters of interest?
A. No, sir.
Q. Not similar gatherings to those in Montreal? A. No, sir.
[Mr. D. W. Ledingham.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 267
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Do these boats go direct from St. John to Cuba; do they call at Nova
Scotia ports?--A. :No, sir.
By the Chairman:
Q. Are consignments made to different parts of Cuba, or is there a combine
port?--A. I don't know; I cannot answer that question, but I can tell you
that a ship would have numerous bills of lading, lots of 500 or 1.000 packages,
consigned to order, advise, consigned to different consignees. Whether those
consignees are members of a combine or an individual combine such as Mr.
Caldwell states, I do not know.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Do you receive any of the Atlantic Conference rates?--A. I get their
freight sheets.
Q. That is what governs your rates?--A. On :North Atlantic business.
Q. What govern. the rates to Cuba?--A. There i. no rate at all. The rate
we can get on the open market is the rate that applies.
Q. You get nothing from the Gulf Conference?---A. Ab.olutely nothing.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Are there any potatoes shipped out of any other port in Canada to
Cuba except St. John?A. Yes; Kingsport had two or three cargoes this year.
Q. But excepting Maritime Province ports? A. No, sir.
Q. It is not a business that is competitive out of Montreal and other Cana-
dian ports except the Maritime Provinces ports?--A. Potatoes move largely
during the winter months, when the St. Lawrence is frozen up, and besides,
the Province of Quebec has never to any e.xtent exported to Cuba. I think
that is peculiar to the Maritime Provinces, the export of potatoes to Cuba.
Q. How nany ports are there in the Maritime Provinces with facilities for
handling potatoes in winter?--A. I only know of one at the present time.
Q. Which one is that?A. That is St. John.
Q. The shipment of potatoes to Cuba is practically confined to St. John,
in the winter months?--A. Yes.
Q. From Kingsport it is confined to the early fall? A. Yes, but we have
sent potatoes in frost-proof compartments, the Same as apples are shipped at
the present time.
Q. But that is costly?--A. Yes.
Q. A ship would have to pay a lot of demurrage at the docks before ship-
ment? A. Not necessarily, if your ship is not late. It is not as quick as taking
flour from sheds, but it is done, and has been done from Halifax for years.
Q. But not nearly as convenient.---A. Not nearly as convenient.
Q. It is more costly? A. Yes.
Q. I would like to make this one point. Potatoes I suppose arriving in
the course of cold weather are apt to be more or less frozen, but it will not
how up until the potatoes get into a heated place, when they begin to "weep ",
as we call it?---A. Yes.
Q. You might have shipped a load or a cargo of partly chilled stuff?---
A. Yes.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Does your line carry potatoes from Kingsport to Cuba?---A. No, sir.
Q. Is the rate the same as the rate from St. John? A. Whatever rate
they can get on open freight cargoes this year. It was 75 or 80 cents. They
go out to cbarter a ship, and whatever rate they can get they take.
[Mr. D. W. Ledln]m.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 269
APPENDIX No. 3
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Did you have applications from other parties for those charters that
you spoke of?---A. No, sir, only lIr. Porter.
C. B. WATTS, called, sworn and examined.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Watts, what is your full name?--A. Charles Brook Watts.
Q. What position do you oeeupy?--A. I am Secretary of the Doninion
lIillers' Association.
Q. lIr. Watts, we are investigating agricultural conditions in Canada,
and we understand you have some matters which you would like to put before
us. As we have a great number of witnesses to heal we would be glad if you
would address yourself to those aspects of the subieet which more nearly
concern the Committee as investigators of agricultural conditions. You wish
to make a statement, do you not?---A. Yes, sir. The matter that more nearly
affects the millers, and the close association of the millers' interests with the
farmers, I have always contended have been so interwoven that you could not
seriously injure one without injuring the other, which makes the matter we
wish to bring before the Committee, namely, the export of flour, a matter of
great importance to the agricultural eomnmnity. The evidence which has been
brought out before you this last day or two shows that there is a combine on
the ocean against the shipment of flour as well as other articles that is affecting
the citizens of Canada.
In the year 1913 Sir Henry Drayton was appointed a Commissioner by the
Government to investigate this matter, and in the same year he made a report
in which he said, at page 10: "The confederate lines can make a rate and
extinguish the traffic." Our contention is that that has been the effect on the
flour business, to a certain extent. I have in my hand a statement which we
presented to the Government in 1914, in connection with this matter. It shows
that up until the year 1913--
Q. Excuse me, lIr. Watts; unless it is necessary for you in the course of
your argument to bring in what happened in 1914, I would suggest that time
might be saved if you would address yourself more to the present condition.
If it is neeessals" for the purpose of your argument, I do not want to interrupt
you.--A. --I was going to show that previous to 1913 there was no combination
against the shipment of flour to the Ukay, that up until that date the differential
or the arbitrary on flour was under three cents per hundred pounds. In 1913
they made a combination against flour while wheat was free, which made the
arbitrary ten cents per hundred pounds.
Q. That is that?--A. The difference between wheat and flour, the differ-
ential, or whatever you choose to call it. At that time, to show you that the
combination was only in regard to British steamships, the North Atlantic
Conference rate on flour to Rotterdam was ten cents, and on wheat it was ten
cents, no arbitrary at all. And the rate on wheat was ten cents, and on flour
it was eleven cents, an arbitrary of one cent.
Q. That was in 19137--A. That was in 1913, showing that there was a
combination against Canada and Great Britain in those steamships on that
service.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. What was the corresponding rate to Great Britain at the time of which
you spcak?--A. The average in 1913 on wheat was 9-98, and on flour it was
17 cents.
[Mr. C. B. Watts.l
272 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A, 1923
were not satisfied to be placed and left in this position, so we came to the Cabinet
and they arranged a conference with all the representatives of the Steamships,
Col. Gear being the spokesman for them on that occasion.
By the Chah'man:
Q. That is the teford Line.--A. He is, I believe, the manager of the Reford
Lines. And he pointed out at that time two facts. I don't want to repeat myself,
so I wont go over the other.
The CHAIRIIAN: That is right sir.
A. But Sir Henry Drayton was there as one of the gentlemen, and he again
called the attention of the representatives of the steamship companies that they
were a combine, in spite of their assertions to the contrary and moreover that
they were able to make such rates as would extinguish the traffic, and as he had
this fact before him in the case of Mr. Black and the Elder-Dempster Line he
said they certainly should extinguish the traffic as far as that shipment was
concerncd. We called the attention of the Government to this fact, that on the
2nd October, 1920, we were quoted a rate of 45c on flour from Boston to
lotterdam, while at the same time they asked 65c on flour from Montreal to
U. K. ports.
By the Chairman:
Q. What year was that?--A. October 2nd, 1920. They asked from Boston
to Rotterdam 45e on flour and at the same time they asked 65e from Montreal
to the U. K., showing a combination or arrangement to the U. K. and a freedom
of shipment to Rotterdam and continental ports, or a discrimination of 45 per
cent against shipments to Great Britain, in favour of shipments to the continent.
Q. Do you know, Mr. Watts, whether at that time they had their regular
Tuesday afternoon meetings.--A. They had conferences with New York, and I
am very glad you asked the question because, at the meeting before the Cabinet
:Mr. Gear told tile Cabinet--and you will find that is all taken in shorthand.
Q. We will take it for granted that anything you tell us is absolutely
eorrect.--A. Mr. Gear told the members of the Cabinet that they always took
care in arranging tile rates with :New York that the Canadian miller got the
same rates as the United States millers. We will see how that works out just
shortly. While you already have it brought to your attention, I want to draw
your attention to this just at the moment, because this was brought before the
Cabinet, that the average quantity of bran and shorts from flour shipped for
export during the 5 years previous to August, 1920, totalled 323,500 tons a year,
so you see what a serious loss that would be to the livestock men and the dairy
men. Now you wonder what the result of that conference that we had with the
Cabinet in August 1920 was, which we carried up to October. Getting no reply
we asked Sir George Foster if he could not give us an immediate answer and he
said information was being sought from the Canadian Government Merchant
Marine. However some result did follow, beeanse at that time the United States
Shipping Board came into aetion, and I wired the Government that they had
made a reduction, so that the arbitrary differential against flour over wheat was
only 5e in the United States.
Q. I will ask you a question here. Is that difference of 5e enough to provide
for the increase of cost in handling flour as opposed to wheat? Is it enough to
provide for the increased cost of handling flour as opposed to wheat? I take it
it costs the transportation company more to handle flour than it does to handle
wheat. Is that 5e sufficient to cover that differenee?--A. No. If you ask me the
question plump and plain, covering the handling and the space it occupies, no,
[Mr. C. B. Wtts.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 273
APPENDIX No. 3
but here is this difficulty, l'lr. Chairman, that no commodity is carried on that
basis, that I know of.
Q. The making of freight rates is certainly a great mystery, Mr. Watts.
--A. I will give you an illustration of that at the present moment and that is
this, that over this continent flour is carried at 1 cent per hundred over wheat
on the railroads, except in Ontario and Quebec.
Q. Do you know why they make an cxception of Ontario and Quebec? A.
That is one of the mysteries.
Q. You say every'herc in Canada flour is carried at 1 cent per hundred
over wheat. A. The whole continent of North America, our own railways and
the United States, at 1 cent per hundred higher than the export rate on wheat,
for export. In Ontario and Quebec it is over 5 cents per hundred pounds that
is, the rate on wheat ex lakes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That only applies to flour for export, not for domestic consumption?
--A. Yes.
Q. Did you mean, going back to that 323,500 tons your argument is to
grind more wheat in Canada so that we can have the feed at home? A. Yes.
Q. Why did not. the Canadian farmer buy this 323,500 tons?A. He did
buy a large portion of it.
Q. You said this was exported?---A. L'o, the flour was exported, and the
bran and shorts left here.
Q. I thought you said that was the loss every year.--A. That would be,
if there was no flour exported.
Q. There were no bran or shorts exported in that way?---A. I replied there
was but only in small quantities. There are certain times of the year when
farmers of Canada have their own feed, all the green feed and they will not
buy bran and shorts. If the farmers will not buy them here they have to be
exported either to the United States or abroad and it mostly goes to the
United States. Why? Because bran and shorts will not keep in the hot
weather. I have had bran in our bins 35 years ago got so caked that we had to
dig it out, so there are certain times of the year when the bran and shorts
must be exported. Bran and shorts are very bulky things, and mills with large
capacities have not got the storage room to keep them. Every miller would
keep all the bran and shorts he could because every season there is an increase
in the business, as is naturally expected but he cannot keep beyond his storage
capacity, and the very minute he gets his storage capacity full he is going
to sell them out and if the farmers will not buy them at home the only thing
he can do is to export them.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Was there not a time within the last 5 years that in order for the
farmers to get bran and shorts in eastern Canada they had to take so much
flour. They had to overstock with flour in order to get the bran and shorts they
needed?---A. That was the very unfortunate position. You realize of course
you cannot get bran and shorts without making flour. :Now, we have to get rid
of our flour or else we have to stop grinding. We are willing to get rid of our
flour on an export basis at a very low cost.
Q. Why did that condition obtain at that time?---A. Because there was a
big enough export of flour to provide the necessary bran and shorts that there
was a demand for. Another reason was this, that the arbitrary fixing of the
price of bran and shorts--I forget whether it was the Wheat Board or what
[Mr. C. B. Wstts.]
$--18
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION 275
APPENDIX No. 3
That shows that under certain conditions they handle at less than what they
call actual cost.
The CHAIRMAN: Air. Bouchard has suggested that it might be better to
let the witness complete his statement and then examine him. I think Mr.
Bouchard is possibly right. If it is the will of the Committee I will ask the
witness to proceed with his statement and we will question him afterwards.
It is not because we do not like listening to you. It is on account of our time
being limited. Just direct your attention to the salient features, just on what
took place, if you would be so good?--A. I want Mr. Sales to appreciate this
point. When I said bran and shorts were the same for export, I cannot say
as to that so far as foreign export is concerned, that is, across the ocean, because
I don't know of any exporting that way, but it is the same to the United States
bnt there is not any 1 cent arbitrary freight--
By Mr. Sales:
Q. We will come back to that western mills question later.--A. On October
30, in reply to my telegram pointing out the United States Shipping Board had
reduced the rate and it was only 5 ccnts over, I got a reply on November 2
that the Canadian National Railways state "A differential of 5 cents between
flour and wheat has been established for tim months of October, November and
December. This means that the flour will be 45 cents." Flour in sacks.
That is, it had been 50 before, it was now down to 45. That remains alright,
then some differential of 5 cents over wheat uutil June 1921, where we took up
the matter again, the govermnent pointing out that the flour shipped from
Canada was being discrininated against in favour of the United States, and
on the 16th of July I got this reply: "The Canadian Government hlerchant
hlarinc inform me that the United States Shipping Board without consulting
the British Lines, reduced the rates on ccreals by 8 cents per 100 pounds. This
reduction was met by the British Lines including the Canadian Government
lIerchant h, Iarine, so that so far as Canada is concerned the shippers suffered
no disadvantage." Up until June 1921 flour was carried from Canadian ports
at exactly the same as American ports, but in 1922 the condition of affairs
came about that was pointed out yesterday, that the United States mills were
able to get their flour carried at 19 cents per 100 pounds, while flour ground
in Canada had to pay 24 cents per 100 pounds. Up until that time, if you
notice, and straight along after, we protested that Canadian flour was carried
at the same rate as Americaan flour from United Staets ports. I never heard
of such a thing as discrimination in my 30 years' experience until just lately
but after the protest, as it came out apparently in the evidence of the other
day, the Canadian shippers no longer used flour carried from the United States
ports at the same rate as American flour, but there is discrimination to-day of
5 cents per 100 pounds. I will file with you the " Barr service " who are brokers
in New York, and we contract straight through and use the rates. The rates
are 14 cents to London, Liverpool and Manchester, 15 cents to Glasgow and so
on, and rule 2: " This rate applies on United States flour only, Canadian flour
19 cents per 100 pounds, Canadian currency." To Aberdeen the rate is 18
cents from United States ports on United States flour and on Canadian flour
22 cents, Canadian currency.
Q. This is produced as Exhibit No. 10. What is this Barr Service?--A. They
are a large brokerage firm in the United States. They attend to a great deal of
ocean shipping booking.
Q. Have you any doubt as to the accuracy and truth of the statements
made in this?--A. I know they are correct because we are shipping in that way
and have had refusals in that way.
--8_ [Mr. C. B. Watt,.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 277
APPENDIX No. 3
The following figures taken from the report are rather significant:
Total grain shipped from August 1 to December 17:-
To U.S. Ports .................. 123,387,000
To Port Huron {Canadian :National, G.T.R.
would handle this) .......... 3,758,000
Handling lost to Canadian railroads .... 119,629,000
Shipped to Grand Trunk points, Coiling-
wood, etc ................. 19,540,000
Say, half Goderich receipts .......... 7,165,000
Add Port Huron receipts .......... 3,758,000
The
and U.S.
Total Canadian National might handle 30,463,000
Against to Buffalo alone .......... 90,401,000
following figures showing shipments of wheat to Canadian Ports
Ports from 1918 are instructive:--
To Canadian Ports To U.S. Ports
1918 61,630,000 2,205,000
1919 89.070,000 5,103,000
1920 58,907.000 57,959,000
1921 76.237,000 85,024,000
1922 107,173,000 129,852,000
The congestion in shipping through Montreal was one of the big causes
of the big increase in shipments through U.S. Ports.
Yours very truly."
The above letter filed as Exhibit No. 11. These figures are taken from
the official reports of the late shipper's clearance association. This letter was
written on the 5th of January by myself to Sir Henry Drayton. In conclusion
I just want to say that this country has spent hundreds of millions of dollars
in providing canals and other means of transportation, from which we get no
ret,_rn directly and it secms to us that we have spent a large sum on the con-
struction of ships and that ships should be used to. protect the markets of
Canada. In the same way we have spent nmney to protect the interests of
Canada in the matter of transportation, and the mere fact that they come into
competition with regular liners seems to cut no figure. In our calculations we
did not consider what effect it was going to have on the United States and it
seems to me those ships should he used in identically the same way that the
United States Shiping Board used their ships. They used them to compel the
North Atlantic combine to carrv flour at a reasonable rate over wheat, and
the combine protested but the Uited States Shipping Board held to their guns
and they come down to five cents. Our government ships went in with the
combine and we have stayed in the air ever since.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Did the United States Shipping Board treat all the ships of the United
States in just the same way as we do?---A. A certain number of them belong
to the United States.
By 2lr. Sales:
Q. Is it a fact that they are disposing of their ships now?---A. Yes.
Q. Going out of business?--A. Yes.
IMr. C. B. Watte.]
280 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. You sell flour in the Old Country at a lower price than here?--A. Abso-
lutely, relatively, in this way. We will say that it costs 50 cents to make a
barrel of flour, if we are running full time. If we are only running half time, we
will say it costs $l a barrel to make that. Our domestic trade will only run us,
we wilJ say. 50 per cent of our time. Then there is 50 per cent of our time which
would be idle, and if we were idle that time, it costs us $1 a barrel, and we
would have to sell it on that basis, so if we can run the balance of our time
on anything at all, it is that much money to the good for our overhead costs.
Q. You ship the same grade of flour there, as you use here?--A. We do,
exacllv.
Q. I have something here which gives figures.--A. When I say exactly, I
am speaking generally; there nmy be an odd mill that makes a little different.
B!! the Chairman:
Q. On the whole.7--A. On the whole.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. This quotes 1913, which is a long way back, of course, but the situation
still exists. " Winnipeg, $5.60; Montreal, $5.90; London, $4.25."--A. Excuse
me, are vou quoting--what grade of flour?
Q. qChis is flour priced in Montreal, $5.70, and in London. $3.99. That is on
October 8th.--A. That may possibly be from big mills. The big mills make
their flour entirely different. The big mills, in making the flour they sell here,
these qualities like Western Cauada, I,ake of the Woods, and so on, make a high
patent flour, and they take off a low grade, that is the usual term, but it is a
first clear, or second clear, as it is called in the United States, that is the lower
part. That flour is sohl at a great deal less, and it is generally that class of
flour tlmt these mills export.
Q. What does " spring patent" mean?--A. That, for export, is a rather
broad te:'m. For instance, speaking of American mills, I see some of the big
mills nmke under the same brand about 20 different qualities. The spring
patent, may be a 90 percent patent,; that is what we would call it here in Ontario.
we x-ould call ours a spring patent. As a matter of fact, there is only about
two per cent or two and a half per cent low grade taken off. Other people
would call a spring patent up as high as 25 per cent or 30 per cent patent. It is
the hrand tl:at determines it in all these big mills, the quality.
Q. Take your own brand.--A. Our own brand is a spring patent, if you
choose to call it that. We call it a straight.
Q. Have you sold that this season at less in England than you have here
--A. No quesiion abont it, because we are simply an export hoJse, that is our
export bu.iness. We do not sell anything here.
Q. Do you consider that your small mills are under anv disadvantage as
compared wth the big mills? "
The CH.m.x: Not so far as their secretary is concerned, anyway.
Mr. SALES: He is very able.
The WT'ss: We are not, in one sense of the word, we are not under any
disadvantage excepting, of course, the big mills in the West have a big advar-
rage over us in the East.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. In what way?--A. They have the wheat that comes to their elevators,
and what they buy there, as well as when it comes to the mills, they are able
to select all the best cars of wheat, and any that they do not think are right top
notch, they can send them to the public elevators at Fort William, and we, un-
fortunately, get it down here.
[lIr. C. B. Watts.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 283
APPENDIX No. 3
By .lilt. Sales:
Q. Just a moment. I want to take the western milling situation. Take
Saskatoon, for instance, or any place in the West where a man sells his wheat
to the mills and is paid on the Fort William basis less the rate, which is
practically 14 cents from Saskatoon. Then the mill is enabled to carry the
flour and products, like bran and shorts, on to Fort William on that 14 cent,
plus one cent?--A. Not if you buy at Saskatoon. If he bought beyond Sas-
katoon, if he bought at Clgary--.
Q. If he buys it ten miles west?--A. Yes, that is right.
Q. He deducts that from the price he pays to the farmer, and then carries
it to Fort William, for that price plus one cent per hundred pounds.--A. Yes.
Q. And that takes out the bran and shorts from our western country and
brings them East.--A. Yes.
Q. Do you consider that is a fair proposition to the farmer in the West?--
A. If he could not do that he could not run, any more than we in Ontario could
run.
Q. Do you think it is fair to the consumer of flour in the West that he
shou!d be charged tlmt freight rate? We get no advantage in the price of flour,
we get no advantage in tim ])rice of bran and shorts, because we have a mill
located in our town, and I know. We get none whatever.--A. I would say this,
Mr. Chairman, that if the mill could get the same price for bran and shorts
at ho]ne, I would not think they would ship it away.
Q. But it does not cost him anything to ship it, because he has deducted
that freight from the farmer. If wheat is worth $1 at Fort William, all I will
get at Saskatoon will be 86 cents, 14 cents less. Now, then bran and shorts
will be carried out at my expense. That is trim, is it not?---A. It is carried
out at the same price as the wheat.
Q. Exactly.--A. There is just one other factor, that you have no bran and
shorts there unless you can grind it there, and that you cannot get away from.
If you cannot grind it, you will get no br.n and shorts, and if you cannot grind
it on a stopover charge, it will go down to Fort William and the mills there
will grind it.
Q. If you had a mill in Saskatoon, could you sell flour ctieaper to the men
there? Why would you have to huy it on a Fort William basis?--A. Because I
have to ship my stuff to Fort William.
Q. I am talking about the man who lives near Saskatoon, and who wants
his flour and bran and shorts. A. The domestic trade--they get enough, I
presume, at their mill that they do not pay freight on at all, and they cannot
ship that out unless they pay the full price.
Q. And the flour should be lower to that extcnt.--A. It should be based
on the price paid.
Q. On the local price?--A. Yes.
Q. Is it based on that?---A. I think the price of flour is a great deal less at
Calgary or Iegina than in the East.
Q. 'hat are you selling flour at now here?--A. I honestly could not tell
you.
Q. You are a miller, are you not? .a.. I am only looking after the general
business of the mills, I do not look after the details in any way; I look after
freight rates and this sort of thing like I am doing now. Approximately, they
are getting for carload flour down here, our mills are getting--we bought the
other day at $5.10 bulk to seaboard for the flour that we export.
Q. $5.10 what?--A. Per barrel bulk, to seaboard.
Q. Delivered where?--A. At the seaboard.
[Mr. C. B. Watt,.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 289
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Each? A. Yes, each. In representing these, I am speaking just as one
of them, because I am one of them that come more closely in touch with the
farming communities and their wants and needs, than the larger millers do,
and therefore, I speak on behalf of the agricultural interests as well as our own
interests. I come in touch with them, we discuss their prospects, their plans,
their ideas, and we have endeavoured, Mr. Chairman, for the last two or three
years to get ourselves in a position so that we get more of an export trade than
we have had in the years gone by. We have been up before different bodies
from time to time. Mr. Watson, in his address this morning, spoke of some of
the deputations he has been on. I have been with him on them all, and it is
not necessary for me to go into the ones we have been on, only to say that while
on these deput,tions we have had the whole-hearted support of the agriculturists
of the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, Tova Scotia, and N.B. At our meeting of
August 26th, 1920, before the full eabinet--
Q. I do not want to unneee.sarily interrupt you, but you see Mr. Watts
has gone over all the historical grounds and I will ask you to address yourself to
present-day conditions and what suggestions you have for their betterment?--
A. In reference to that, hlr. Chairman, we millers are sometines supposed to
be selfish--
Q. Wc will grant that the millers as a whole have the highest character,
free from selfishness, full of patrioti.m.--A. All right, we have these gentlemen
supporting us in our representation not out of charity to us, but because they
needed what we wanted to give them--
Q. The interest was mutual--we are agreed upon th,t.---A. They were
more than nmtual; they were more than nmtual, if I might use that expression,
because these people say that they cannot get the stuff for their cattle without
this is done. The country could not get along without the millers.
Q. Pardon me, if I interrupt again. We will take it for granted that it
is in the interest of the dairy men of eastern Canada, and also the stock rais-
ing interests, that a lot of wheat should be milled in Canada, in order that
the by-products should be had for the dairy men, and the stock raising farmers.
We quite agree on that.--A. Yes, then we will leave that phase of the question
just now. The position is to-day that we are charged five eents per hundred
ex-lake for our wheat for export, and five cents per hundred on the ocean
more than our American friends are. That is equal to twenty cents per barrel
handicap that we are opposed by, as compared to the American millers.
Q. And you have to sell your flour on the English market in competition
with your American competitors who enjoy this advantage over you?--A.
Yes, and further than that, with our American competitors who are grinding
our Manitoba grain, because there are immense mills in Buffalo and more in pros-
pect, being built to grind that Manitoba grain, and they have this advantage
on us.
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q. Do they buy that grain there?
Mr. H._XEL: NO.
Mr. S.LES: I wanted Mr. Thompson to answer.
The WTESS: Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. They buy it?---A. Yes.
Q. And grind it?--A. And grind it.
Q. With American wheat?--A. I do not know how they grind it.
[Mr. R. A. Thompson.]
3--19
290
wheat
SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
In bond?--A. Yes.
And get a rebate of the duty?--A. I understand so.
A rebate of the whole duty?--A. IXinety-nine per cent, I understand.
So that as far as the mills are concerned, there is no duty on Canadian
for these purposes?--A. Yes, and he gets over there--these American
millers get over there for the stock raisers of the states, the bran and shorts
which we should grind out for our Ontario stock raisers here. The question of
grinding at or belmv the cost for export has been up to-day. I do not think you
gentleman ust " catch on " to the idea we have in that work. Supposing I can
grind at 50 cents per barrel cost, manufacturing cost. I have a certain cost, say
/or example, 35 cents a barrel, if I stand, hly investment, my insurance, my
interest, my office help, my ererything except practically my fuel and oil are
going on when Imn standing. I may have to hire one or two men as labouring
men to help with the tuff, if I am going. If I could get, Mr. Chairman, between
the cost of the wheat and the money that I get out of the flourut of the brans,
and out of the shortsa difference of 20 cents, between the cost and income, it,
pays me better to run at 20 'ents, and bring that 35-cent overhead down, than
it does to stand.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Does that lead us to the conclusion that there are too many mills? That
is the only trouble?. We have the best wheat in the world, and the milling
capacity is nearly up to what the wheat is, and the milling capacity of our
country should be used entirely to satisfy the needs of our country.
By thc Clarman:
Q. Your complaint is that the freight rates are attached in such a fashion
on wheat that wheat which should go into our mills and be ground there is
diverted to the mills of the United States?A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. But, instead of taking this loss due to the export business, if you were
grinding to the full capacity at home you could sell your flour cheaper to the
home consumer?A. We could, because our cost would be lower.
Q. That is practically amounting to the dumping of our product into the
markets of Enghmd?A. Yes, dumping it into the markets of England in order
to satisfy our men here.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Do our mills in Canada mill any American wheatA. No, they do
not mill any American wheat that I know of.
By the Chairman:
Q. Do you not get some soft wheat in here and mix that with the Canadian
wheat?A. We have our own soft wheat. Our Ontario soft wheat supplies that.
The CHAIRMAN: Any other questions to ask Mr. Thompson.
Q. Is there any other thing that you wish to put before us, Mr. Thompson?
A. You might ask "what do we propose to do with that?" There is another
question that is affecting us, and that is the fact that through the want of expoS,
I believe, some of our best mills throughout the country have gone into
insolvency.
Q. Became insolvent?A. Yes, Tillsonburg, St. Mary's the Georgian Bay
Milling Company and others have gone into insolvency. We want to keep going
and not be killed out, and not have to depend entirely on our local trade. Ordin-
arily we could not supply one-half of the feed that is required in our immediate
[Mr. R. A. Thompson.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 293
APPENDIX No. 3
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: h,Ir. Sales, would you say you can produce hogs in your
country now?
Mr. SALES: Well, he quoted one man who had quit raising hogs, who would
have raised forty hogs. hIv answer is that if every man was raising forty hogs,
we would not have a mar-et at all. I have dressed hogs in this country at
5 cents a pound.
Mr. I{AMhELL: I have sold them for less than that.
tIon. Mr. TOLMIE: That is many years ago.
]{r. SALES: Not SO many years ago.
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE: They have paid higher prices than that during the war,
and ever since the war.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Mr. Thompson, if you denied to the American miller this price of wheat
for export, would that have any effect?--A. That is beyond our control. The
American just fixes it so he can do it. They are no fools over there.
By ]lIr. Sales:
Q. We have the same thing here. The Quaker Oats Company import oats
from the United States and for export purposes can get 99 per cent of their
duty back.---A. Yes.
Q. And whcn oats were dear two years ago, is it not a fact that they did
bring in lots of oats, instcad of buying them from the farmers in Ontario?--
A. I have no infornmtion on the oat situation.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Is the miller here--the big miller--absorbing the flour from Western
Canada?---A. It is being pushed in wherever it can be.
Q. There is quite a difference in the price?--A. I do not come in competi-
tion with that question of flour very much. I am growing Ontario soft wheat
almost entirely. That is the business I am in, but I know it is being pushed
in, but I have no idea of what the price is.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Mr. Thompson, you heard what hlr. Watts said regarding the Canadian
consumer being compelled to pay a higher price for his flour in order that he
may sell in competition with the world, in the Old Country?--A. Not in order
to--I did not understand it that way.
Q. That is the way I understood it. Now you go on, and in your evidence
you state that through the lack of export trade, quite a number of mills have
gone out of business?A. Yes.
Q. In Ontario?---A. Yes.
Q. I would assume from that that the larger the export the higher the price
of the flour to the consumer here in Ontario would be?--A. Oh, I do not think
it will work out that way. I cannot see that it will work out that way.
By the Chairman:
Q. hlr. Thompson, let me take you over the argument which appears to
Mr. Elliott and myself to be the logical conclusion of Mr. Watts' statement.
Mr. Watts says that during part of the year we manufacture for export what
are costing our millers 50 cents a barrel, and our overhead represents on that, 35
cents--35 cents is the overhead, and that overhead runs on even if we are
standing still?---A. Yes.
[Mr. R. A. Thompson.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 297
PPENDIX No. 3
By the Chairman:
Q. As a matter of fact, when you have to consider the question of how you
are going to take your goods to market, you think of the cheapest route, do you
not?
Mr. WATTS: Absolutely. I would like to say one word here, if you are
through with Mr. Thompson.
The CHAIRI\IAN: I do not know whether we are through xvith Mr. Thomp-
son or not. Is there any question anybody wishes to ask Mr. Thompson?
By Mr. Milne:
Q. You quoted bran in 1919. Do you know the price of wheat to-day?--
A. ,No, I could not tell you that.
By the Chairman:
Q. lumber 1 hard is abotlt 96, is it not?--A. I have no idea. I was just
thinking about bran and shorts.
By Hon. Mr. Sinclair:
Q. May I ask this question, hlr. Thompson? Have you any general idea,
and can you make a general statement as to the condition of the Ontario millers;
are they working under any of the handicaps you have been describing?--A. The
ordinary Ontario miller is being affected very injuriously. Some of them have
euough home trade, chopping and other things, to keep them going on home
orders for about one-half the time; some of the other mills have gone out of
existence entirely. I spoke about the Tillsonburg Mill, the St. Marys Mill, the
Georgian Bay Mill, and the Canadian Flour Mills Company at Chatham.
Q. Within the last year?--A. Within the last year, in some of the very
best districts we have in the Province of Ontario.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is it not rather strange that your representations should not have been
received favourably by the Cabinet, seeing that you have two millers in the
Cabinet?---A. Well, we thought it trnngc.
Q. I should think so, if your facts are on safe grounds? A. We thought it
strange.
Q. It looks to me as though you might have received some consideration?
---A. I might say in reference to that, that considering the power the Chairman
had and the difficulty he had in getting evidence from some of the witnesses he
had before him, you can imagine what a stone wall we were up against in the
way of the shipping interests and the railway interests; they opposed it at every
step. They wanted the rates. It was like lowering the rates on leather--they
did not get the business.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. You cannot give us the cost of wheat in 1913?--A. No, sir.
Q. Do you remember what flour was selling at?--A. :No; I was only look-
ing after bran and shorts.
The CHAIRMAN: thank you very much, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Scripture
has been waiting here for some time to be heard.
Mr. WATTS: Just one word, hlr. Chairman. Mr. Sales made the sugges-
tion that he would like to see a cargo of flour shipped over, to see what the cost
was. You will find, according to the figures of the steamship companies, that
they are carrying below cost time and time again. It is a relative arrangement
[Mr. R. A. Thompson.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 299
APPENDIX No. 3
The CHAIR.MAN: We argued that before.
5Jr. WATTS: You are getting exactly what was suggested, doing your local
milling only. In a short time, if it goes on, you will have the very thing Mr.
Sales has suggested, that the mills will be manufacturing for local purposes only,
and the rest will be wiped out. You can easily see what the result will be.
Mr. CALD,VELL: I would not like Mr. Watts to think that we are
unsympathetic towards his case. I believe he has made a good case against
the United States. However, we must consider these things in all their bearings.
5Ir. W.Tws: I am glad to have had an opportunity of giving you any
infornmtion. :I thank ybu [or your courtesy.
The CHnmM_-: Our thanks arc duc to you, sir.
IOBERT B. CRIPTI.!.'.E called, sworn and examined.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Scripture, you are connected with the apple business? A. Yes. sir.
Q. Where do you hail from?--A. Brighton, Ontario.
Q. Are you in the business yourself?---A. Yes, sir, both as a producer and
as a buyer.
Q. There are some thins about the business which I would like you to
communicate to this Committee; you might make your statement, and we will
then question you upon the different points that occur to us.--A. When I was
asked to appear before this Committee I did not know whether I was to be
asked questions, or to be questioned along the lines of production and exporting,
or along the lines of transportation. I can say this, Mr. Chairman, that the
apple situation in Ontario, as it applies at the present time, is this, that apples
are being sold now at less than the cost of production. The apple situation in
Ontario is that all or practically all of old Ontario produces as an adjunct to
mixed farming about eighty per cent of the apples, and the remaining twenty
per cent would be produced by men who specialize in raising apples. Owing
to the fact that the average Ontario farmer is not in touch, through the small
quantity the individual produces, the distribution is handled through buyers
who buy competitively, that is: they do not fix prices among each other either
in labour or what they shall lay for apples, but in the late summer and early
fall they go to the orchards and bid against each other for the crop. They in
turn find their market either locally, that is in Canada or export. Some men
specialize in the local trade, others in export.
Q. Export to where?--A. Largely to Great Britain, but also to several other
countries, such as South Africa, orway, and Sweden. Our export to France
is cut off now on account of the exchange. They ship to any place where there
is a market for Ontario apples. The export business, as far as Great Britain
is concerned, has fallen off greatly since 1918. I might go back still farther and
say that the export business in Ontario is not a circumstance to what it was
prior to the war. There are probably two reasons for that; the first is the
increased cost of transportation and the increased cost of production; the other
would be that during the war Ontario orchards were neglected, to the advantage
of the production of grain and other foods which were allowed to be exported
while apples were not.
Q. Was there an embargo against apples being exported during the war?--
A. Yes, sir.
[Mr. R.A. Thompmn.]
300 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. lg.'3
By Mr. Caldwetl:
Q. Do you know why?--A. They were not considered an essential food, and
they took up too much space.
Q. They reserved the space for essential things?--A. For meats, and thing..
of that kind. High prices prevailed when the embargo was taken off, and those
prices induced the growers in Ontario to pay more attention to their orchards,.
but those prices have gradually declined until at the present time apples are
being sold at less than the cost of production, unless there would be an exception
in the case of the 20 per cent produced in Ontario bv men who specialize in tie
business, and who have low costs of production. Transportation to-day is from
80 to 100 per cent higher than in 1916; it is 80 per cent higher than in 1916, avxi
100 per cent higher in many instances than it was in 1914.
By Mr. Salcs:
Q. Is that ocean transportation, or rail?--A. Ocean transportation is not,
quite 80 per cent higher.
Q. What about rail tran.portation?--A. That is 80 per cent higher than m
1916, and 100 per cent higher than it was in 1914.
By the Chairman:
Q. What is your rail tranportation?--A. These are the rates.
Q. And what is your ocean transportation?---A. Back in 1908 and 190.9.
ocean transportation to Liverpool was two shillings from the seaboard.
Q. Per barrel?--A. Per barrel, and to Glasgow two shillings and sixpence.
That was raised in about 1914 to 74 cents to Liverpool and 80 cents to Glasgow.
The present rate is $1 per barrel from any seaboard point to Great Britain.
Q. It went up as high as $5 a barrel, did it not?--A. That was during the
war. That has fallen slowly to the present rate of 81.
Q. That is the situation?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you give the Committee the benefit of your views as to in what
way the situation can be bettered or improved?--A. The home consumption ca
be increased. I am speaking now of Ontario. The home consumption of Ontario
apples can be increased by legislation against the sale of the low grade apple
No. 3's, because when buying No. 3'. the consumer does not get his money's
worth.
By Mr. CMdwell:
Q. Could we have a definition of No. 3; the grading now is Extra Fancy,
Fancy, and No. 1.7----A. Those are boxed apples.
By Mr. ,gales:
Q. They have a new grade called Domestic, which has been used for some
years?--A. Yes. I would not at the present, time advocate discontinuing the
use of Do,nestle, because it is good value and it supplies the cheapest trade.
Q. Why do you not do this: call it No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3, instead of having
a Domestic between 2 and 3; 3 would really become No. 4.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Is No. 3 the run of the orchard?--A. No. The Act says that it shall con-
tain no culls, and that covers a multitude of sins.
By Mr. Sles:
Q. Why do you have the Domestic coming in between No. 2 and No. 3?--
A. It is a better grade of low-priced apples than No. 3.
[llr. R. B. Scripture.]
306 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. You would have a great deal more market for your apples if you could
have a better system of distribution, would you not? A. Absolutely.
Q. You must have an intelligent man feel that this is a pretty wasteful
form of distributing a natural product.---A. It is, but it is the only outlet because
the consuming public don't know what they pay for apples.
By Mr. Bouchard:
Q. Does it not depend on the producer?---A. Absolutely.
Q. As far as I know we have not to deal with that question.---A. Take the
best retail stores in Montreal, you will pay an even higher price than the man
who is buying low grade apples at 30 cents a small measure.
Q. Will you pay for superior fruit or lust the same? A. You will pay in
some cases for superior fruit; in some cases lust the same. I have seen apples
in the best stores and offered for sale in small baskets in Montreal on St.
Catherine street, apples of the same kind I have seen sold in the morning in
the auction for under $4.
Q. Four dollars a barrel? A. Yes.
Q. What would that mean, that 19 cents a baske?--A. A six-quart basket
holds about 8 pounds. Eighteen dollars a barrel.
Q. :Now, lr. Scripture, have you gentlemen in the apple business thought
of how you could improve your system of distribution?--A. I have tried myself--
I handle quite a lot of apples and I put a traveller into the province of Quebec--
] have for two years, in the fall of the year, late summer and early fall, and
he found it impossible to sell more than four or five carloads of apples because
the dealer would prefer, that is the dealer in outlying places, would prefer to
go into Montreal, do his buying and pay an extra commission and an extra
freight, because I can ship apples from the point where they grow direct to,
say, the dealer in Shawinigan Falls, but he prefers to go into Montreal to buy
those apples from the Montreal dealer, sometimes for two reasons; he can get
credit there and he can get a better selection. He might get an apple that would
suit his trade. He could buy 3rd's or he could buy what he thought he could
sell.
By Mr. Ca/dwell:
Q. That is based on a sample market entirely.?--A. Yes, largely.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Do you have any association among apple growers, your county organi-
zations in Ontario, in the largest producing sections? A. :Northmnberland-and
Durham have an amalgamated association of producers, largely educational.
Q. That is they don't go into the business of marketing apples?---A. No.
Q. In Nova Scotia we have the United Fruit Growers?A. The apples in
Nova Scotia are all centred in the Annapolis valley, and they have all to pass
through Windsor. In Ont.ario the apples are scattered.
Q. They come through Windsor, then go to Halifax too in coming to
Montreal? A. They are on one line of railway. In Ontario the growing section
is from the Ottawa valley to Lake Huron and from Lake Erie to Georgian Bay,
inclusive. I know the United Fruit Growers of Nova Scotia send men to
Montreal and Toronto.
Q. They have the buying organized and they have the selling organized,
that they sell a certain quantity of apples in the Fall of the year?---A. This
year they have not sold any since Christmas.
Q. I am speaking about the handling of apples. Do you have a warehouse
or nything of that kind where )'ou can store them before you ship them?--_.
[Mr. 1R. B. Scripture.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 309
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. But as long as he just asks for apples he just gets apples.--A. Yes.
Q. But if he asks for No. 1 apples, he may get No. 3.--A. It is being done
everywhere to-day, even in this city, with a staff of inspectors going around
through the stores.
Q. Would you suggest that apple sellers should be compelled to place No.
. or No. 2 or No. 3, on the fruit in the shop?---A. If it 'ere practicable to do
daat, yes. I think it would be good business, that, along -ith a policy of
educating the consumer and buyer to the fact that he was getting more for his
dollar invested by buying high grade apples than low grade.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Do I understand that this Fruit Grading Act that has been passed,
compelling people to market apples according to grade does not mean anything
to the consumer?---A. To the consumer, in less than a package lot, it does not
mean anything.
Q. For whoe benefit was this act passcd?--A. It is for the export business,
and it is for the man who buys a barrel of apples and who sells honestly. When
there is a No. 1 stamped on a barrel of apples raised in Ontario, it is No. 1
all the way through.
By the Chairman:
Q. I suppose, Mr. Scripture, the honesty among tie producers, and a
znowledge among the consumers would go a long way in making the situation
better.--A. It would help, but we are up against higher costs in everything,
that is, our costs are, I would say, 60 per cent to 100 per cent higher than in
pre-war times, and our prices are now back to pre-war levels.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Mr. Scripture, you mentioned at the start that there was quite a demand
for boxed fruit in Ontario, boxed apples.--A. Considerable, yes.
Q. You also stated that there was no demand for Ontario boxed apples.--
A. Not to amount to anything.
Q. We will all admit, or at least I will agree, that the Ontario apple is the
best apple--.
The CHnn: The Ontario people admit that.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. What I want is this; why is there not a demand for boxed fruit, apples,
in Ontario? A. I think it is a ouestion of the finish. In Ontario we cannot
finish our apples as well as the apples on the Pacific Coast.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. What do you mean, not so well coloured?---A. Yes, and there is
more variation in sizes, that is, if we boxed apples, we would have too many sizes
in every car. The growth in British Columbia or along the Pacific Ocean is more
uniform, the apples are more uniform, and my experience has been in handling
Ontario boxed apples that where they were thinned, in order to give them eolour,
the size was too large to meet with ready sale.
By the Chairman:
Q. Were they thinned to become large?--A. :No, to give them a good
colour, then the size was too large. I had that experience last year, with
Northern Spies, in one orchard, and it as rather disastrous; I lost money on
that. They -ere beautiful, but they were too large, they were as large as that
pitcher.
[Mr. R. B. Scripture.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 311
APPENDIX No. 3
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Scripture, do you see the point that Mr. Elliott is driving at? His
point is that if apples were placed on the market in smaller packages, people
of very small means, buying a peck at a time from a peddlar or corner grocer,
could have apples sent to them more directly in a smaller package which they
could pay for.
]kr. SLES: And which could retain the marks of No. 1 grading.
The WXWrESS: The cost of introducing the smaller package would be much
greater.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Scripture, you have explained very clearly and very graphically
how the $2 a barrel apple on the tree gets down to the ultimate consumer to be
$9 a barrel. There is a lot of leeway there?--A. Yes, but there is this, that the
smaller package---first of all, Ontario apples are not suitable, are not as suit-
able for boxing. If you get a middle or snmller package you have the question
of transportation, that is transportation frown the orchard to the consumer,
which would shove the cost up very high. It is an actual fact that anything
that is packed costs more than bulk, and a barrel is you might say, a bulky
package.
Mr. C.LDWELL: I know that a great many B. C. apples are sold in New
Brunswick in boxes.
Mr. SALES: We have not been able to buy barrels of apples from the east
for years. I think the last we got cost $10 or $11. We used to buy them for
$4 or $5. The fact is that we have been doing without apples. We have not
got one quarter of what we should have. I used to buy six barrels in the year.
Now we have to resort to other things. We have to get along on our rhubarb
and our own citrons and strawberries. It is wonderful what we can do when we
have to do it. That is the situation in western Canada to-day.
By Mr. Bouchard:
Q. Have you any idea of the way fruit is distributed in England to the
wholesale co-operative socicties?--A. In 1921 I sold to a wholesale co-operative
company a considerable quantity of apples. I believe they distribute to a great
many stores, and they are not now asking for consignments of apples because
they claim they can buy apples cheaper in Glasgow than they can buy them in
Ontario. ButI know that they are not getting as good quality in Glasgow at
the price they are willing to pay as they could get here.
Q. But the distribution to the consumer, how is it worked?--A. I do not
know.
The CrAm.r:: Any other questions. We are very much obliged to you
Mr. Scripture, for your statement.
The Committee adjourned until Friday, March 23, at 10.30 a.m. to meet
in executive session.
[Mr. P B. Scripture.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 315
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Let me address your mind to this problem. The transportation interests
say they have to pay three times for whatever they carry beyond what they
paid before the war, and that they are paying very much more for their help
than before the war? A. How many of them burn coal to-day, Mr. Chairman?
Q. A great many of them do.---A. A little more than half, but not much.
The tramp steamers burn coal, but not always. We have had tramp steamers
that were burning oil.
Q. Your contention is that from your knowledge of transportation, by a
substitution of one fuel for another, which does away with a lot of work, a ship
should be able to be operated to-day at about the same cost as before the war;
is that your view? A. Very close to it, sir, and that is the only salvation of
Canada.
Q. You mean, to have a reasonable rate? A. To have reasonable trans-
portation. The farmers I think all over Canada have their problems; the
West is no exception to the East; the East has its problems, just as serious as
those of the West. They are producin potatoes in the East to-day, and they
are not getting one-half what it costs to produce them. That is not only this
year; it has been going on for two or three years, and one of the great reasons
for that has been this, that transportation has been holding it up. and it is
only this year that we have got the rate down to sixty-five cents. Two years
ago we were paying one dollar.
Q. Is a barrel of potatoes the same size as a barrel of apples--A. Yes,
sir.
Q.
apples.
Do they weigh about the same?--A. No, sir; potatoes are heavier than
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Are you basing these remarks on ocean transportation?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. And on land transportation as well?--A. I know about ocean trans-
portation.
By the Chairman:
Q. I suppose all Nova Scotians are more or less mariners?-A. They are
more or less mariners, yes, sir, I am sorry to say. Nova Scotia occupied a
very proud position as a Maritime Province for years; to-day she does not.
Q. There was a time when Nova Scotia was one of the great Maritime
peoples of the wcrld?-A. That is true. You would find her ships everywhere
--but not now.
The CHAmbrAY: Are there any other questions along this line you would
like to ask. Mr. Robinson?
Mr. ROBINSON: Not if you have established the facts.
The CHAmM: We have established through Mr. Chase that the bringing
down of the rate was not simply an act of benevolence on the part of the
steamship companies, in order to be agreable to the Nova Scotians who asked
for it, but because the Nova Scotians had gone out and co-operated and hired a
ship of their own.
WNESS: We have consignees that meet in New York. We have gone
on chartering, we have chartered six or seven.
I would like to tell you another thing; they have in New York an outside
line, and those same people offered us a ship from the outside line, Smith &
Re_ardon, I think the name is.
Q. The Reardon-Smith Company? A. I think that is it. We chartered
four ships to go to Halifax from New York, and each one of them carried
10,000 barrels of apples to different ports in Great Britain at 75 cents a barrel.
[Mr. W. H. Chase.]
316 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
I wuld like to tell you the sequel to that; the same people we do business with
as charterers were waited upon by some people who are inside--I don't know
that I am transgressing any rule, because I was not told to keep it back--and
they were told "If you represent this line we withdraw our patronage from
you."
Q. Give us the name, give us the representative who was told that.--A.
The people who sent that telegram.
Q. Pickford & Black?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Pikford & Black were told by the :North Atlantic Conference?---A. By
a member of the North Atlantic Conference, who were agents, that if they
continued this business to represent Smith & Reardon they would have to
withdraw their business.
Q. Do you know what representative of the Conference said that?--A. :No,
I don't know.
Q. Were you told that by somebody connected with Pickford & Black?--A.
One of the firm.
Q. If I get it right, you made an arrangement with this firm of Reardon
& Smith?--A. Through Pickford & Black.
Q. Through Pickford & Black the Nova Scotia shippers of apples made an
arrangement for the transportation of apples by tile Reardon & Smith line?--
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of New York?--A. Yes, four steamers.
Q. Four steamers?--A. Yes.
Q. To carry apples at what rate?--A. Seventy-five cents a barrel.
Q. And when that arrangement had been made a member of the Conference
A. After the apples had been shipped.
Q. After the apples had been shipped a member of the Conference told
Pickford & Black that if they continued to make such arrangements on behalf
of the Nova Scotia shippers of apples, that Pickford & Black would find patron-
age withdrawn from them by other lines in the combine?--A. That is just a little
different; if they continued to represent Smith & Reardon. Smith & Reardon
would be called, in street terms, a scab line. Put it that way if you like. Pick-
ford & Black might have chartered the Bay Eskimo or any other outside steamer;
we did charter one steamer from Pickford & Black, but we pick up steamers from
four or five chartering houses through whom we do business.
not.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Smith & Reardon are not in the North Atlantic combine? A. They are
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is that the only independent line there is, the leardon & Smith line?--
A. I could not say.
Q. You do not know of any others?---A. I could not say; I am not conver-
sant with New York business lines. I know they have lines running to out ports,
such as Norway, Sweden, and other points to which they carry freight at very
much less than they do to Britain.
Q. The only boats you have been able to secure to break the combine are
the lines of Reardon & Smith?--A. No, sir, we have chartered lots of steamers,
such as the Bay Eskimo. I could give you half a dozen more.
Q. Who do they belong to?--A. They belong to anybody; they are what
you call tramp steamers, Norwegians, they are very large owners, an do a very
large portion of the transportation. They have a lot of steamers in the fruit
trade south; they come off of those charters, and we take them for apples.
[Mr. W. H. Chase.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 311
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. They are not in the North Atlantic Conference?---A. No.
By the Chairman:
Q. Have you any explanation to make or any suggestion to offer as to why
the Norwegians are able to operate at a very low cost? I have heard it suggested
--you will correct me if I am wrong--that very often the captain is a joint
owner of a vessel; do you know whether that is so?A. I do not see why that
should make any difference. I would not say but that he might have stock in the
company. The Norwegians are great workers. One of the best sailors I knew
when I was engaged in the shipping schooner business always used to like to
get Norwegian sailors; he thought they were the best of all.
Q. Even over the Nova Scotia or Prince Edward Island sailor?--A. Yes, sir.
I have known this business a long time; I have been at it a great many years,
and can give you lots of information.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. I just have a few local questions more or less that I wanted to get some
information on. We ship our apples from Halifax? A. Entirely.
Q. You ship some potatoes?A. We do.
Q. To where?--A. Cuba.
Q. Where do you ship the potatoes from?--A. Halifax mostly.
Q. Any from Kingsport? A. Yes, but not this season of the year. Kings-
port is enveloped in ice at the present time.
Q. Mr. Chase, did you ship any potatoes this fall? A. This fall?
Q. Yes.?-A. Oh, yes.
Q. What were the rates then?--A. Now, let me see. Most of our potatoes
that we ship in the fall were by schooner.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Where did you ship them to?--A. Havana.
Q. In bags, not in barrels? A. Barrels.
Q. You did not ship any in bags?---A. I would not say any. We would
probably have 1,000 bags going on the next steamer but it is barrels from Nova
Scotia, bags from New Brunswick.
Q. How would the freight compare between bags and barrels? A. Practi-
cally the same. I don't know that the steamers make any difference, although
really the bags will stow better than barrels.
Q. Although they contain more, a bag 180 pounds, and a barrel 160 pounds
next?--A. Yes, but of course bags stow more closely than barrels.
Q. You think there should not be any material difference in the freight
betweeen a 180 pound bag and 165 pound barrel? A. No, the same handling
the same stowage, but I don't think you could expect to get any difference.
Bg Mr. Robinson:
Q. Where are the apples loaded on the steamer at Hallifax? What do you
call the place?--A. The ordinary terminals. Pier two, three and four.
Q. That is at what they call deep water?---A. Yes, deep water terminals.
Q. How far are those from the new terminals that they built?--A. Oh,
as the crow flies, I think about half a mile. Of course the railway splits out
before it gets down there.
Q. At Fairview?--A. Yes.
Q. At the pier there where we ship now from deep water, are there any
accommodations or any means of taking care of apples, frost proof warehouses
or anything of that kind?--A. Nothing of that kind.
[Mr. W. H. Chase.]
320 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
see, for
Q.
sarily.
Q.
be very
They use barrels that would otherwise be thrown away?--A. They would
apt to be.
Q. What price do you pay for the potatoes in the barrel?--A. We opened
the season with $1.50 per barrel. ow we are paying $1.40. We have never
varied from-that price during the entire season.
Q. How long did they stay at $1.50? A. Sometime in November.
Q. And they stayed very steady at $1.40?--A. Yes.
Q. What has the variation been in the selling price from Cuba?--A. _Not
very much.
Q. You get the reports of the selling price in Cuba, I presume?--A. The
market varies up and down there. You cannot be guided very much by that.
We sell largely to very large dealers.
Q. Have you ever found that they refused to accept a cargo, refused to allow
you to ship to independent dealers in Cuba? That is to say that they will
[Mr. W. t. Chase.l
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. 65 cents a barrel from Halifax to Havana?
Mr. IOBNSoN: I thought that might, interest you, Mr. Caldwcll.--
A. The 60 cent rate is the rate on bags from St. John.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would it be the rate on bags from Halifax? A. That is another point.
We are chartering what are known as United Fruit Company's steamers. It
is worth considering, 5 cents a barrel more to ha,e the United Company's
steamers than the ordinary tramp steamer because they have their own wharf
facilities in Havana and that accounts for considerable.
Q. They pay no dockage in Havana?--A. They pay no dockage in Havana.
They have their own dockage and the people with whom xve do business in
Havana requested us if possible either to charter the United Fruit Companies
sLeamers or the Munson Lines steamers.
Q. Do you pay any dockage rates in Halifax for loading in those steamers?
A. No.
Q. You have to pay a dockage charge in St. John for loading?--A. To offset
that, the steamers have to pay a wharfage rate in St. John, and a 3-ear ago last
January--heretofore we have always had free unloading but now we are com-
pelled to pay for unloading our cars and the two things may arrive at the same
conclusion. We pay what is known as unloading charge.
Q. 3 cents per hundred? A. We have a special charge on barrels, of 1 cent
a barrel.
Q. I might say that until last November, I think it was, we paid 3 cents
for unloading of the cars in St. John. The C.P.R. reduced their export rate
on potatoes to St. John for the same purpose, to meet the temporary very bad
conditions. I want to ask you another question. You ship potatoes. You are a
shipper?--A. Yes.
Q. Not a grower?---A. No.
Q. You buy direct from the farmer?--A. Yes.
Q. What price did you pay your farmers these past years, beginning in
November, by the month?--A. We include the barrel. Our buying price has
always been different from the business in New Brunswick. There, as I under-
stand it, the buyer simply buys the potatoes from the grower. We in our part
buy from the farmer the potatoes put into the barrels.
Q. Barrels and potatoes? A. Yes.
And the barrel costs 50 cents you say this year? A. Mostly, but you
potatoes, our farmers use what you call the old apple barrels largely.
They don't have to buy new barrels for this purpose?--A. Not neces-
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 321
APPENDIX No. 3
not accept your shipment if you had shipped 500 sacks to an independent dealer
in Cuba? A. The understanding is that there shall be no other potatoes shipped
to dealers in Cuba.
Q. I have the weekly report from Cuba and I find that there has been a
ver.v shard variation since last Novem!)er. The variation has been from $2.75
to $5.00 a bag in Cuba. Is that right? A. That is a part of the combine's
business.
Q. The point I am trying to establish is that there has been a very wide
variation in price from week to week, and month to month?---A. Yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. In the Cuba market?---A. Yes.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. From $2.75 to $5.00, there will be that much spread?--A. Yes.
Q. The price has. never varied in Nova Scotia. I might say the samething
of New Brunswick. Can you explain that?---A. The big Five in Havana control
the market.
Q. I don't lnow what the situation is in Nova Scotia, but the big Four
control the business in New Brunswick.--A. Yes. I don't know why.
Q. For that reason the price may go up from $2.75 in Cuba to $5.00. It
does not go up to the farmer who produces the goods?--A. No. It is the Havana
man that is controlling the market and squeezing it, and if we undertook to put
it down he would drop the price to $2.00 a bag.
Q. Don't you think the man who is buying in New Brunswick, if he can
afford to pay $1.40 and is getting $2.75 in Cuba, could he not afford to pay more
if he was getting $5.00 in Cuba?--A. Your dealer in New Brunswick never gets
$5.{)0 in Cuba.
Q. This report means the local man gets control of the market?--A. He
buys every bag that is for sale there.
Q. We will get that in a simpler manner, possibly? What have the
Nova Scotia shippers been getting for potatoes C.I.F. Havana this year, that is,
cartage insurance and freight paid?--A. As far as we are concerned I can tell
you what price we are getting but I cannot tell you what the others may be
getting.
Q. What you are getting is all we can expect you to deal with.--A. I think
our price is $2.25 C.I.F. Havana.
Q. What date would that be?--A. That would be last Autumn.
Q. Has that price varied since last Autumn?--A. Yes, not much. To-day
we are getting--
Q. Just a minute.
By the Chairman:
Q. What are you getting now? He has not answered that yet.--A. Well,
now, these shipments that I suppose you are asking about--
Q. Vhat are they getting now?--A. I would like to explain--
Bg Mr. Caldwell:
Q. We want the facts. We don't want too much explanation.
By the Chairman:
Q. What are you getting now?---A. We are getting now, I think it is, $2.90.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You think it is $2.907--A. I think so.
[Mr. W. H. Chase.]
3--21
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION
APPENDIX No. 3
I am speaking of the grower, unless he can get nmre price for the potatoes he
cannot continue in the business?--A. Surely not.
Q. And in 3 years, has he on an average, for the last 3 years, got 50 per
cent of the cost of producing that crop. You will say no, would you not?--A.
I would not put it that low. Of course our people have fared better than you.
Q. You have, due to the fact that the United Fruit Company shipped
lot of potatoes.--A. Yes. There are other conditions.
Q. Would you name them? Due to the fact that they ship co-operatively,
they are able to get a I)etter price than they could in shipping through a dealer?
--A. No, I don't think they get a bit better.
Q. They did not get any better price than the dealer was given. They
could get his price but if the United Shipping Company had not been shipping
co-operatively, do you think a Nova Scotia dealer would get any better price
than a New Brunswick deler?--A. No.
By te Chairman:
Q. What is the reason why Nova Scotia is working under better conditions
than the New Brunswicker?--A. We have from Halifax regular sailings to
what is called the south ports. Now while we sold to Havana on a basis of
$2.20 Halifax, at the same time we sold a 1,000 barrels to go to the south side
on the basis of $2.50 Halifax, at the same time, but mind you, the south side
business is limited.
Q. When you say the south side, is that the West Indies Islands?--A. No,
Cuba. They go to Sntiago, Manginilla, Havana. Different conditions obtain.
It is a point, when you come here, on account of the high rates Havana cannot
touch them. They put the steamers right into those ports, and in that way
said Halifax has an advantage over St. John.
O What do vou complete the loading of your vessel with when you want
to put 2.000 or 3,)00 sacks of potatoes on.--A. Fish, which goes to Jamaica.
Q. You say you sell on the basis of $2.20 Halifax. What are the items of
expense, the railroad freights?--A, tailroad freights, about 40 cents a b,rrel.
Q. Where do you buy? At the point where they are grown?--A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a freight of 40 cents a barrel from any point in Nova
Scotia to H,lifax?---A. Yes.
Q. Do you think that is the trouble? A. Yes, certainly.
Q. What should it be?--A. Half of that.
Q. We want to be very serious about that. Do you think half of that
would pay the railroad company for carrying it? We might say what we would
like to have but do you think it would pay the railroad company?--A. Not
to-day, the rates they are paying.
Q. Can you give us what the rate was, say in 1913?---A. Before the war?
Q. Yes.--A. I would say they are about double what they were before
the war.
Q. You do not know accurately? A. I do not know. I could not carry all
those things in my head.
Q. No one would expect you to?--A. I know that formerly on the east
the shipper produced at a range of from 12 to 18 a barrel from Halifax.
Q. Where you ,re paying how much now?--A. Thirty-five to forty.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What is the distance? A. It varies; the shorter distances would be
about sixty miles. Our railroad rates are compared by miles, although they
have different branches.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Do you get a blanket freight covering a certain amount of territory?
A. No, it goes every seven or eight miles.
3--21 [Mr. W. H. Chase.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 329
APPENDIX No. 3
actual condition of trading. We go into it rather fully; we give a statement
of the average price paid for live stock, the actual grading of stock, the dis-
position of the stock, and comparisons with other years.
Q. You endeavour to keep the farmer advised as to where the best place
to sell his produce is located, so far as live stock is concerned?--A. We leave
him to infer that; we do not say that direct.
Q. You do not tell him where to go, you give him the facts, and as a
skilful merchant he must bring or send his goods to market where he considers
best?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been looking into the question of the shipping of live cattle
to the 01d Country, have you not?--A. I have had a little to do with it.
Q. Would you kindly tell the Committee what you have that you believe
will be of interest to us in that connection; you might make a statement, and
'e can then question you upon certain aspects of your statement? A. I was
overseas in 1920. Although I was not in charge, I went over on a cattle boat
'ith a consignment of cattle to Liverpool, to endeavour to obtain for the
Department some information as to the overhead costs of delivering those cattle
in Great Britain. The conclusion reached was that the overhead was rather
excessive, that the selling charges in Great Britain were rather high and the
ocean freight rate was too high for the intrinsic value of the commodity that
was being carried, and that if the trade were to be carried on permanently it
'ould have to be carried on with a lower margin of risk, that it would have
to have some lowering of the intermediate costs, especially on cattle coming
from Western Canada, where they are by their very nature a cheaper class
of cattle than those shipped from the Province of Ontario.
Sir. SALES: I will not agree with that.
WTNESS: I am speaking of existing conditions, of the %5"estern markets.
By the Chairman:
Q. You are here to give us your honest and sincere opinion upon everything;
it is not your obligation to be popular, but just to tell what you know.--A. I am
not trying to be popular, sir. The fact is that the cattle markets in the West
run a few points below those in the East.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That is a different statement?---A. The facts are the same.
By the Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. Is that not due to the distance from the consuming market; it is really
a question of freight?--A. That has a lot to do with it. You will find a greater
percentage of Eastern cattle on the markets fit than you will find on the
Western markets.
Q. 5Iore finished cattle?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is due to feeding?--A. Yes. I can give you the actual figures to
show that, and the total of last year's trading.
Sir. SALES: We do not need to bother with that.
By the Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. You went over with a shipment of cattle, and your instructions R'ere to
look after the loading of those cattle, to obser-e them carefully while crossing
the ocean, to learn anything you could as to the convenience of the loading of
the cattle, and so forth?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then to watch them unload?---A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in addition to that visit the yards?--A. Yes.
Q. And bring back all the information you could get?---A. Yes.
[.Mr. P. E. Light,]
330 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. I remember the time. The information was very valuable. What is
your opinion of the present fittings on those boats; are they good, or in what
way would you suggest improving them?--A. I went over in June, probably
about the best time of year, that is, when the climatic conditions as well as
general conditions would be at their maximum, for the safety and convenience
of the cattle. The boat I was on--I do not know whether it represented the
average but I do not think it did was fitted up or had been fitted up for trans-
porting horses to France during the war. There was an e.xtra deck super-
imposed on the main deck, built on the main deck, and one thing that struck me
about it was the condition the animals got into through the stalls not being
kept clean, that is, the manure cleaned out every day or every other day.
The cattle were quite dirty two days before they were landed, and the only
way to clean them was to throw a lot of straw that was left over into the pens
and let them dry themselves off that way. There seemed to be a lack of con-
veniences for cleaning out, and the class of men carried as feeders were in the
main totally ignorant of how to handle live stock; they knew nothing about it
whatever.
Q. How about the size of the stalls, and the timber used?---A. Plenty big
enough.
Hon. Mr. TOLIIIE: That is interesting, in connection with the claim made
by the British shippers.
By the Chairman:
Q. Will you describe to the committee the way the stalls are made, the
nmterial, and the size of the material of which thev are formed?--A. I do not
know whether I can do that now, as it is quite a While ago. I would say that
there were no accidents through faulty stalls or weaknesses in construction.
think they were perfectly satisfactory. I think the stalls in the boat I was on
were put in for the carrying of horses.
By Mr. Tolmie:
Q. What was the space available for the animals that occupied it?--A. I
have not got that here. There were a lot of bulls in the consignment, head,-
bulls; they occupied the stalls, and their dimensions would be much larger than
those of the ordinary animal going overseas as steers; many of them weighed
over a ton.
Q. Were they three feet wide? A. I think they were wider.
Q. How many did you have on the boat altogether?--A. 457.
Q. What kind of a trip did you have?--A. A good trip.
Q. What mortality was ther?_. We lost two.
Q. Due to what? A. Both had the same disease, or the same trouble; it
was an abcess which broke out on the back.
Q. Due to what?--A. There was no veterinary officer on board, so we did
not know.
Q. Was there something that irritated the back?--A. I thought it was in-
fection.
Q. Do you think that irritation would be caused by the movements of the
ship?--A. No. It was on the back. I think it was started before they were
ever on the boat. We shot them and put them overboard.
Q. In connection with the unloading at the other end, was that done well
and without injury to the cattle?--A. It was done without injury to the cattle,
but it was not very good. They followed the plan of going along one side of the
boat and releasing a certain number at a time; there was a regular stream of
them going down the gangway, and they landed at the Birkenhead Wharf. The
| M, 1. E. Light.]
338 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Is that calculated in the ocean rate?A. :No, that is included in the
.$6.50. The broker looks after that for the shipper.
Q. Is that included in the 50 cents?---A. :No, those are en route, by rail to
Montreal. That has nothing to do with the ocean freight whatever. The ocean
feed and equipment runs from $5.50 to $6.50 a head. That includes care and
feed on board the vessels and so on, the percentage.
Q. That is, in addition to the $20? A. Yes.
Q. These men who go over as attendants, do they get anything at all for
their work? A. Yes, they get a shilling for the trip, I suppose.
Q. To show that they are engaged?--A. Yes.
Q. They are collected by an employment agent?--A. Yes.
Q. What does the employment aent get for signing them up?--A. I don't
know, whatever the fellows have got, I guess.
Q. I have it here at from $3 to $3.50; then there is wharfage at Montreal?
---A. I make that about $2.50. On the shipment I went over with, they were
there about a couple of days.
By the Chairman:
Q. $2.50 wba.t? A. $2.50 a head.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. There is a wharfage charge? A. That includes yardage, troughage and
marketing, etc. It is not likely that the shipments will coincide regularly. As
a matter of fact it is recommended that the cattle should be rested 24 hours
before they are loaded on the boat., and the boat being in darkness it would be
foolish to load the cattle then, because it is hot and they will sweat off a large
amount of meat.
Q. Then there is insurance?--A. Yes.
Q. :Now will you give us the total cost of a bullock from Calgary to Great
Britain? A. This steer was supposed to weigh about 1.300 pounds, and it was
somewhere in the neighbourhood of $50 or $55 from Calgary.
Q. From Calgary to Liverpool?--A. Yes; that includes the selling charges
and everything.
Q. The selling charges on the other side; I have it that the cost is $7, for
wharfage, dockage, selling and handling in the United Kingdom? A. $7 a
head.
Q. What about dockage; that has to be added to the $507--A. Yes, that is
right.
Q. So that we have $57.50 now, at your figures?---A. I have got mine. I
have $6 for landing and average selling costs in the British markets, but
those costs vary according to the number of days held before slaughter; that
influence the cost of feed, and whether the stock is sold by the head or dressed
If they are London sales, the amount might be $7 or even more.
Q. We have $62 now?--A. I think there is something wrong about that.
We have freight $20.50, services at Montreal, wharfage, etc., $2.50, ocean feed
and equipment $6.50, that is if hay is up or down a little; ocean freight
$20, and the total selling costs in Great Britain, including landing, $6.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. What is your total?--A. $55.50 and $10.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What brokerage charges have you which they get in Montreal for
securing space? A. I understand they charge 50 cents a head. They charge
50 cents a head for the space.
[l_r. :P. E. Iight.]
346 SPECIAL COMMITTEF
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Sunday regular time is double time but Sunday during meal hours is double
double time that is four hours for one hour.
Q. That has materially increased the cost of putting these goods in?---A. It
docs not happen often on Sunday, because the owners of the ships are trying to
save that overtime as much as possible.
Q. How much do you pay these men?--A. Fifty cents an hour for day time;
sixty cents an hour for night time.
Q. And the double time is twice sixty.--A. It would be $1.00 an hour for
day time and $1.20 for night time on Sundays. Double those prices for meal
time.
Witness retired.
The Committee adjourned until 3.30 o'clock of the same day, March 27th,
1923.
A lternoon Session
HOUSE oF COMMONS,
COMWFE ROOM, :No. 268,
TWSDAY, March 27, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to enquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada resumed at 3.30 p.m., Mr. McMaster, the Chairman, pre-
siding.
H. C. GRAw called and sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. What do you do? A. I am conducting cost of production studies in
Manitoba. My title is Hudson Bay Fellow.
Q. You are connected with the University?--A. Yes. The Hudson Bay
Company each year give a scholarship of $1,500, which is open to students
or graduates of any university in America, and the purpose of which is to
promote graduate study. It is supposed to be in my own university for pure
or applied science, and for some reason or another, they gave it to me last year.
I am a gradu.ate of the Manitoba Agricultural College, and I have been conduct-
ing cost of production studies in Manitoba on this grant for the last year.
Q. What is the condition of agriculture in Manitoba at the present time?
A. You mean the condition of the farmers?
Q. Generally. Are the farmers making money and living extravagantly or
are they having hard times?--A. If you don't mind, I would rather give you
the results of the actual studies I have made, and then I can answer that
question more fully both from the standpoint of financial conditions and also
from the standpoint of the morale of the people.
Q. If you prefer to address yourself to the subject in that fashion, I have
no objections? You have prepared, I presume, some sort of statement to lay
before the Committee?--A. Yes sir.
Q. Then I propose that you go ahead and lay that statement before us,
and when you have finished with it, we will question you on certain po.ints
[Mr. L. YI. linsonnault.]
348 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
[Mr. ]=I. C. Grant.]
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
AGRICULTURAL CO 5:D1TIONS 351
APPENDIX No. ,3
in arriving at the taxes we got tim average figures from the municipal clerk, and
in Portage they were $90 per quarter-section, which is an acreage charge of 56
cents. Waskada was $52 per quarter-section, which is 25 cents; Deloraine $70.
which is an average charge of 43 cents.
By the Chairnan:
Q. Does that include school taxes?--A. Yes, sir, that is the total taxation.
The total charge for land--I may say in regard to your remark, that some of them,
for instance, like in Portage, it went as high as $146 a quarter-section.
Q. The taxes? A. Yes.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. That is at the highest? A. Yes.
Q. How do you account for that?--A. Road work and school taxes are the
big charges.
Q. Telephone? A. It is not as heavy; you will agree with me, Mr. Sales.
Mr. SALES: It runs about $25, I think.
Mr. hIILNE: It does not come in the taxes, though. There is no telephone
in the taxes.
The WITNESS: This is just the general municipal taxes.
Mr. HAMMELL: I understood you had a telephone tax.
The WIN.ss: A municipal levy, but not in the personal taxes.
That makes a total charge for land at Portage $5.16, Waskada $2.06, and De-
loraine $3.39.
By the Chairman:
Q. That is to say, before the man gets anything for his labour at all he has
got to nmke, in Portage la Prairie, $5.407--A. $5.16.
Q. $5.16 not counting his investment in the land, investment in the buildings,
and necessary disbursements for school and municipal taxes.--A. Those are his
overhead charges, just on the buildings and land; there are others, on machinery
and things like that. I will come to that later.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Have you these sumnmrized in a later sheet? A. Yes.
Mr. Sn5.s: I will not make any notes, then.
The WITNESS: The first thing, I have distributed that. The next charge
is seed; it is simple to get that, I just asked the average amount of seed sold
and what was paid; that came to $2.25 at Portage, $1.25 at Waskada, and De-
loraine $1.15. The reason for the difference is that Waskada is very light land,
and has not very much rainfall, and of course we seed less.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is that calculated into a charge per bushel?--A. No; $1.15 to $1.30 a
bushel, that is what we paid for seed wheat last year.
Mr. SALES: Yes, that is right.
By the Chairman:
Q. Jus a moment. What is that you have?
The WITNESS: I hold in my hand and am now referring to a document which
is No. 18, being a chart of the total cost on an acre of wheat, the total production
cost of an acre of wheat.
[Mr. H. C. Grat.i
352 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
EXHIT No. 18
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Seed ...........
Man Labour .........
Horse Labour .........
Machinery ..............
Twine ...............
Threshing .......
Portage
.... 5 16
..... 2 25
..... 2 23
..... 3 23
........ 108
.......... 0 52
........ 2 55
Management.. 1 87
Insurance .................... ] 0 50
Total ..................................... I 19 39
|
Summer Fallow ........................ I 4 57
Cost per Acre ............................ I [ 23 96
Yield ............................................................ ! 17 Bush.
Cost per Bush ................................................... $1 41
Deloraine Waskada
3 39
1 33
1 76
2 79
1 08
0 37
2 88
1 87
0 28
15 75
3 63
19 38
18 Bush.
$1 08
2 06
1 15
1 78
2 55
1 08
0 30
2 16
1 87
0 3O
13 25
3 31
16 56
18 Bush.
$0 92
Exhibit No. 16 included in Exhibit :No. 18.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Now, beginning at the first, so we will get it all. We have passed land
and seed.
The x,VITNESS: Man labour is next. I have the number of hours here.
asked them, "How much did you pay for a man during last season," and they
gave me the figure. In the different districts it came to around about $405 or
$410 for a man for a year.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is that without board? A. That is with board.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Can they hire their men by the year?--A. Some of them do, Mr. Sales,
quite a number of them; a number of men I had on my actual accounts hired
their men by the year.
Q. Did you not find the tendency was that men would not hire for the
year? A. I worked it out. The average man would hire out for $350 a year, but
we took the 7 months, the average for that, and then the 5 months at the average.
We asked, "How much can you get a man for in the summer?" and they would
say $30, and we would take 7 times that, and 5 times the winter average. It
came to $405 or $410.
Q. With board and lodging?--A. Yes.
Q. Washing?---A. Yes, I added that to that charge, then $1 a day for board;
that is the income tax rate, I think.
By the Chairman:
Q. Will you please hold that chart so that everybody can see it.
The WITNESS: We took and divided that by the number of productive hours,
which I found was the average number of productive days a man worked on the
farm, about 272 days, and then we divided that by 10 and struck our rate, and
then multiplied that by the number of hours we got in Exhibit 15.
Q. Calculated on a 10-hour day?--A. Yes, that is ust labour in the field.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Explain that, deal with that right there?--A. He may be doing chores,
and I know he is.
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
354 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, h. 1923
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. In your investigation did you ever come across a farmer in your district
who has all his work done at 6 o'clock at night, generally speaking, the year
around? I mean the chores, and everything?---A. I have heard of them, but
I have never come across them. The nearest I ever came to one--I was team
foreman on a six section farm, down in Southern Alberta, for about a year,
and we were all driving eight-horse outfits, and when we came in at night there
was a choreman, and he did that, but any man who is a good teamster always
wants to groom his horses at night. We were 25 miles from the nearest town,
so we did not have anything to do. I have heard of that from some of my
students at the college, but I have never run across it.
Q. You never have personally observed that system of farming?--A.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I have found this, from personal experience, that we could do more, or as
much in 9 hours on the field as our neighbour did in 10, taking one day with
another. We got up at 5 in the morning, were on the field at 7, left at half past
eleven, and were back on the field at half past one, taking two hours, from the
time of leaving the field to the time we returned to it in the afternoon, and
quitting at 6 o'clock at night. That made four and a half hours in the morning
and four and a half in the afternoon, actual work on the fields, and I think we
accomplished quite as much in 9 hours as our neighbours did in 10.
Mr. ELLIOTT: I rather think that is right, from my experience.
Mr. SALES: The horses can only stand so much.
The WTESS: That is a sociological question, not an economic one. The
next is "horse-labour ", and we base that by taking the prime value of a horse,
that is, what is a horse worth at Portage? The type of horse they have there,
they said it was worth $150, and we took 10 per cent depreciation on a mature
horse, 8 per cent on his investment, and then I allowed 146 bushels of oats and
3 tons of hay a year to feed the horse.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. What do you do with him the rest of the year?---A. That is the average
from our figures that was fed to the horses.
Q. 3 tons of hay and 146 bushels of oats?---A. Yes. I am using that as an
average. You must remember that in Manitoba we have a large number of
horses that during the heavy rush, the crop season, we feed. In the winter
time we let them run on the cross-tracks, and that accounts for that. Now, we
figured that a horse does 85 days labour in a year, and the way we figure that
is this, that one horse will do about 40 acres; 12 horses on a 480 acre farm,
and that horse does about 22 hours on an acre, that brings him up to about 80
days, and then we figure they do about 50 days unproductive labour around the
farm, so we iust divided that 86 days into the other charge and got at our rate
for that, and multiplied it by the hour rate in the first place, and that makes
a charge for horse labour of $3.23, $2.79,.and $2,55. I may say in passing that
the cost of keelSing horses is a thing hardly appreciated by the western farmer,
and I intend to publish some figures later on showing the relationship between
use of horses and the profit from the farm. I have the actual figures in my
office; I have not analyzed them yet, but I will try to show what there is to
show on the relationship between how economically a man uses his horses and his
net profit.
I'[r. H. C. Grant.]
358 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
It was rather a difficult thing to get at; that is some men sold at different times,
They sold at what they thought was fair, then came in to us, and the price was
between eighty and ninety cents.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Pardon me, Mr. Grant, But have you not forgotten one thing in particu-
lar; you have nothing there for hauling?---A. I have that in my labour charge;
I meant that as a labour charge.
Q. If it is includcd, it is aI1 right; I thought you had forgotten it.--A. No.
Mr. I-IAMMELL: The cost per bushel in Portage would be $1.41.
Mr. RoBinson: I think that is very important, the cost per bushel.
Mr. HAIIMELL: I make it $1.41.
WTESS: I did not fiore it out in that way. I was working at it on th
acre basis.
By the Chairman:
Q. Divided by the average bushels per acre. It does not give you a true
statement, if you do not take the hailed-out portions, because the hailed-out
portions had to be ploughed, harrowed and managed the same as the other?--
A. That is true, Mr. McMaster.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. The returns would be correspondingly low?--A. They did not have any-
thing, so I could not make a comparison between Waskada and Portage, not if
you considered the hailed-out area.
By the Chairman:
Q. They would get their hail insurance? A. Some of them would.
Q. You have charged the hail insurance?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Taking that 17-bushel average, were there any hailed-out portions in
that?---A. No, sir.
Q. They were left out altegether?--A. Yes, they were left out altogether.
Q. Any loss by hail? A. Yes.
The CHAnukAh: That is approximately right, because he has charged hail
insurance against it.
Mr. SAES: My point is that there were no farms hailed-out in the cases
he has spoken of, so it did not reduce the yield per acre. If ten were hailed-out,
it would reduce the average per acre. That is the point I would like to make.
By the C]airman:
Q. Your pretension is that this table, if it errs at all, errs in giving too
rosy a view to the situation? A. Well, it would, because the Portage Plains
had an extraordinary condition this year. I have four accounts of farms that
were absolutely wiped out.
Q. Are you prepared to say this, Mr. Grant, that to the best of your belief
you have prepared a table there which shows us an accurate statement of the
average cost of raising an acre of wheat in these three districts under observa-
tion?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you worked that out to a bushel basis?--A. I have. At Portage it
was 1-41; that is the first one. In Deloraine it was 1-07, and in Waskada it
was .92.
[htr. H. C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 359
hPPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Now, Mr. Grant, I do not want to have anything on the record that can
be challenged. The average crop at Portage and the average yield would be
better than this 17, would it not?--A. I do not think so.
Q. Is that over a period of years? A. No, sir, that is last year's average.
Q. Did you investigate the crop yourself?---A. Yes.
Q. In any other years?--A. No, because I was only working on these charges
last year.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Can you tell us if 17 is more than the average over the number of
farmers; I believe it is more, taken over a period of years?--A. For Portage, I
would not think so.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. We can get those figures accurately?--A. Yes. We put these figures in
our booklet issued by the Department of Agriculture, but I did not use the
average over a number of years, because these charges were for last year; they
varied, that is, the average they gave me and the averag e of the Department,
in these particular districts. Just here I would like if I might to draw a con-
clusion; you will see that we have allowed Interest on Land, Depreciation,
Interest on Machinery and Horses, and a Management Charge to these farmers.
The farmers out west this year have been meeting certain of their obligations;
for instance, in the district of Deloraine they have almost paid off their back
taxes. There were taxes in arrear; yet the people will say " If that is true, and
there is this interest charge, why are the farmers meeting some of these things?"
For this reason; if he is meeting these obligations of his out of the interest on his
investment and depreciation, they are the things he should be putting aside.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. And his own management? A. Yes. He is paying them out of these
things instead of putting aside a surplus for the purchase of certain machinery
and putting himself in a better position, raising the standard of living, and
developing roads, building schoolhouses, and that sort of thing. I think that is
the logical conclusion.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. But as you say, the farmer has no interest on his investment, nothing
for his management. He has to reduce his standard of living ten per cent, to
do these things?--A. Yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. Actually has he reduced his standard of living; is he not eating as well
or dressing as well as he did some ten years ago?---A. Yes; he has reduced his
standard of living. I base this upon the survey which I conducted last year in
Manitoba.
Q. In many cases he is a settler or the son of a settler who went in and
homesteaded there years ago, and although if he went to sell his land it would
be worth what you value it at, but as a matter of fact neither he nor his father
paid for it except in the hardships they endured in years gone by? A. That is
true, Mr. McMaster. There is this that is true also; take the beginning of the
war, when prices were high. those farmers who were settled and who had probably
homesteaded their farms, went out and bought another quarter section of land
at a high price.
[Mr. '. C. Grant.]
360 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Why?---A. To increase production.
Q. :Not from a patriotic point of view?---A. They were getting money from
it too.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Do you think it was from a selfish standpoint?--A. I would not say
that. I would say it might have been from a business standpoint.
By the Chairman:
Q. Was there not a request from the Government to everybody to urge
their farms all they possibly could at that time?--A. Yes. At Portage people
camc in and bought land at those high price.-', and the farmers sold it and they
have the land back now. They bought the land at high prices, and some went
ahead, built expensive buildings, bought expensive tractors--the International
ttarvcster Company never sold so many; they had all these expenses of produc-
tion, and they are eating up their profits now. That applies not only to the
farmer but to others as well.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. We come back to this point, Mr. Grant. that the man who had his farm,
paid for many years ago, and who did not put so much money into it, made
his interest and got along; but take the man who is running on borrowed capital,
upon which he must pay interest at eight per cent--eight per cent is the prevail-
ing rate, is it not?--A. Yes.
Q. What position does he final himself in?--A. In a tight position.
Q. I-Ie is going to the wall to-day? A. Yes, but here is the point, Mr.
Chairman and gentlemen; you take Portage and the people in Waskada, I will
say this, that they are better off right now than most of the people in Manitoba,
and they were down in that dry belt we were so worried about. During the
war they did not have any crop, but they did not buy anything, they did not
buy any expensive machinery, or build any new buildings. Some of them have
a land charge of $2.06, while others have $15.56; some of them got tweity-five,
twenty-six and twenty-seven bushels to the acre, and made a profit.
By Mr. Rbinson:
Q. Their production costs were away below what they were in Portage?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. But imagine what kind of homes they are living in, when the buildings,
stables and houses and all the rest of it were valued only at $1,000 ?---A. Take
Portage Plains, they have beautiful farms there, but in the southwest district it
is as barren as a billiard table. Their outlook has been iust as barren; they
have not had money with which to grow trees, they go around in old dilapidated
automobiles, while in Portage they go around in good automobiles, Paiges in
some instances.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. While you were out there did you pay any attention to the relative cost
of the use of tractors as compared with horses?---A. Yes, I did, but I will not
have the results just yet. I was not able to get really a number of farmers
to give me those results, because some of them were not using their tractors;
they were standing idle.
[Mr. H. C. Grnt.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 361
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Why?--A. They were too expensive. It was cheaper to feed oats to
horses than to feed gasoline to tractors.
Q. It was cheaper with oats at 15 cents than gas at 50 eents?---A. Cer-
tainly.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Can you blame the farmers for that?---A. No, sir. They thought they
were not seient.ifie farmers until they got tractors.
Q. But wasn't it the pri.ee of oats?--A. The relation of kerosene to oats
decided whether a farmer was going to use his tractor or keep it out in the lot.
In North Dakota it is said that it costs twice as much to use gasoline than oats.
Of course that is an American report, and I cannot vouch for its accuracy.
By the Chairman:
Q. Are they paying more for their gasoline, or less?--A. They are paying
less.
B Mr. Sales:
Q. Can you tell us the difference?---A. Yes. The power cost per crop acre
was $2.71, and with horses it was $1.76.
Q. But the price of gasoline in Manitoba and in N. Dakota?--A. I do not
know whether I have that or not; I don't think I have that.
Q. Do you know, yourself?--A. :No, sir. I do not.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. What is the price of gasoline in Manitoba to-day?--A. Around 45 cents.
They use kerosene, they do not use gasoline.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. hlr. Grant, there was a statement in your costs regarding seed grain
which was rather interesting to me. I noticed that on the poorer land you had
a lighter seeding of grain than you had on the richer land? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that general?--A. Yes. You take the rich land, unless you seed heavy
you are going to get too rank a growth; you have to have more seed there to
absorb the moisture in the richer land; it can hold more. In the light soil,
where you have not got the amount of plant food and moisture, you have to
seed lighter. It is a question of field husbandry.
Q. The reverse is actually the practice in 0ntario?--A. That is not the
case in Ontario.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I am living where my neighbours are seeding four bushels of oats per
acre, and I used to live on a farm where I used to sow a bushel and a half.
I have only had four-and-a-half years' experience with this locality, and I have
not had a year when I did not have a portion of my crop laid down on heavy
bottom land. A. If we would only seed one and a quarter bushels of oats in that
low land, we would have it laying down. There are different conditions to
meet.
By the Chairman:
Q. Were you brought up on a farm, Mr. Grant?---A. :No, sir; I was brought
up about seven miles north of Winnipeg, and when I was about twelve years of
age I went to live with an uncle on a farm in the led River Valley, then went
out as a team foreman on a 6-section farm in Southern Alberta. From there
I went to college, then enlisted, and went back as Assistant Marketing Commis-
[lIr. H. C. Grant.:]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 3E3
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. You may as well sit down.--A. I have to give before the Scientific Club
of Manitoba on April 3 a temporary or interim report on my research work.
I have prepared a sort of thesis on farm conditions that I will read afterwards,
and that will probably answer. It will only take about eight minutes, after I
get through with the next statement.
Under pressure of time I was called upon to report here. I did not have an
opportunity of getting in all the reports from the farmers I am dealing with,
but I wired out to seven of the best farmers, I mean those who are keeping
the best records, and who will give me the best information.
Q. The best bookkeepers?--A. That is one way of putting it. I have
summarized their financial standing for the year, and I will read it off to you.
Q. Would you say that those seven you are going to give us are fairly
typical of the whole?--A. Yes, I would.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Are they good farmers, average farmers, or better thau average farmers
--A. As I go through this list, I had better give a little commentary on the
men, and say why I think they succeeded and why they lost, if that would
be satisfactory. I am going to give you four farms in Portage Plains.
Q. If your statements are challenged, you can prove them by actual ex-
perience?---A. Yes. I ha'e the books in my office. This is a record of a
vear's business in farming. It is a form we get out in our own Department.
erhaps I had better distribute a few of them among you.
I may say that I surveyed all these farms for the purpose of teaching farm
management, that is, afterwards for student purposes they go and analyze these
farms and find out the general layout, and see whether there is any improvement
to be made in the general layout. Dealing with this farm first, I have 800 acres
in a farm, and it has been--
Q. Will you be able to leave them with us?---A. I am afraid I will not,
sir.
Q. Can you have blue prints made?--A. I can submit all these to you when
I get back.
Q. I think we could have a blue print made in the Department of Public
Works?--A. That is what I use them for.
Q. We will call this one Exhibit 19 in the evidence of Air. Grant.
(Plan of farm marked Exhibit No. 19).
We will have several blueprints struck off. We will call it the farm of
Mr. A.--A. His capital investment was $65,960.95.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Is that for this last year, Mr. Grant, or what year are you dealing
with?--A. I am dealing with last year.
By the Chairman:
Q. The last calendar year, ending December 31, 19227--A. No, ending last
week; from last year at this time until last week, right up to date.
Q. We will call this form Exhibit No. 20.--A. This is just to look at the
form of it.
(Form marked Exhibit No. 20).
Q. You are taking up farm "A" here now, are you; can you produce that?---
A. Yes.
Q. You have it in your hand?---A. Yes.
[Mr. 17. C. Grant.]
366 SPECIAL COMM1TTEI
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 193
Q. What would he have to pay? A. He would have to pay 8 per cent.
Q. Now go on with the next point. Forgive us for interrupting you so often?
--A. Not at all. The next farm is right close to this one.
Q. Which we will call farm B. Produce that as Exhibit No. 21 with
the evidence of Mr. Grant. You are now referring, are you not, to the farm
record in connection with this farm? A. Exactly.
Q. Which we will produce as No. 22 with your evidence. We will refer
to this as farm B, and we will refer to the owner as farmer B.--A. His average
capital, $34,047.80. His crop receipts and other receipts were $7,239.63. His
total expenses were $3,863.99.
Q. His total expenses for running the farm? A. That is right. The farm
income from capital and labour was $3.375.64. That is receipts less expenses.
Q. Amounted to how much?--A. $3,375.64. Interest on average capital
at 6 per cent $2,402.86. The labour income and the profit was $1,332.78, which
shows that he earned a rate of interest of 6-9 per cent.
Q. Or if you give him 6 per cent, it allowed him as labour income what?
--A. His labour income, $1,332.78.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. After paying interest? A. That is paying his interest.
Q. Have you charged against the farm $1,000 for himself?---A. You do
that when we take the interest earned. The interest earned you charge $1,000
and you have 6-9 per cent. That is what we call the net farm income. That
was 6-9 per cent.
Q. In other words after he finished his year's operation he had earned
6 per cent on his capital invested and had realized an income from his labour
amounting to what?--A. 6-9 per cent.
Q. In dollars and cents.--A. 83,375.64.
Q. No, that is not it. The difference between what came in and what
went out in the operation of his farm was how much?--A. $3,375.64.
Q. That created a fund sufficient to pay interest at 6 per cent on the
value of the farm, which would amount to how much?--A. $2,042.
Q. And give him over and above that how much for his own labour?--A.
$1,332.78.
Q. I think that is the simplest way to estimate.
Q. What was the difference between the first farmer who lost money, and
this man who apparently made $721, for his work?--A. If you will let me give
you one more farm--I have prepared a sort of little analysis of those three.
By the Chairman:
Q. Pick out among your sketches what you are going to deal with now. We
will call this farm C and it is Exhibit 23. A. Yes.
Q. We will refer to tlis exhibit 23 as farm C and we will refer to the
farmer as farmer C, and the witness has in his hand as exhibit No. 24, the farm
record in relation to this farm C.--A. His average capital was 822,639.90. His
receipts were $2,882.86. His expenses were $2.979.15. Of course there is no farm
incone. The interest on average capital, at 6 per cent. is $1,358.40. Labour
income is nil.
Q. What do you say the farm brought in gross?---A. $2,882.80. His dis-
bursements were $2,979.15.
Q. He neither made interest on his capital or anything for himself?--A.
Not only that but he had about $30 a month coming in from live stock products
too. He had 8483.11 from dairy products during the year.
Q. This man is a mixed farmer? A. He had 4 cows and some chickens.
IMr. H. C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 369
APPENDIX No. 3
much about a ,nan's knowledge of wheat and wheat lands--I find that this
man has 82 acres of fall rye in one field, 82 acres of fallow in another; he has
157 acres of wheat in one piece and 68 acres of barley--
Mr. HAELL: That is what we call farm land.
Mr. SL.S: No, listen. Another field of wheat. A field of sweet clover,
another field of barley, another field of fall rye, and a field of oats. Now, I
find that he has considerable stoek?---A. I will fll you, just what stock he has.
I have it here. He has one cow, two heifers two years old, one heifer yearling,
one calf, two steers yearling, twelve horses, two colts three year old; one colt
two year old, one colt yearling, one brood sow; twenty-five chickens, and one
turkey.
Mr. HAMMELL: He is not a mixed farmer.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. We were discussing the question of the--
The WITESS: The diversification. He had stock, as I said before, one
cow, two heifers two year old, one heifer yearling, one calf, two steers yearling,
12 horses--those are not really stock, that is work--two colts three years old,
one colt two years old, one colt yearling, one brood sow, twenty-five chickens,
and one turkey.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Are any of those mixed farms?--A. I would not consider them ,nixed
farms.
Q. They are purely given over to the growing of wheat?--A. Yes.
Q. And the stock which he has there--A. He is doing that for food for his
family, cream, and a little side income. He keeps this stock for the farm.
Now, we will turn to a couple of records from the southwestern area.
By the Chairman:
Q. You are producing now farm D?--A. Yes.
Q. That is No. 25? A. Yes, and the record will be No. 26.
Q. By the way where did your forebears come from--Ontario? A. Bruce
County--not Ontario; Bruce County. Scotland before that. If you will look
at that ,nap which you have there you will see this is rather a peculiar farm,
and the success of this farm is attributed more to personality than to anything
else. If you will pardon iust a little social history in connection with this
farm, I will say that during drought years this gentleman bought all his goods,
groceries and the like, from his storekeeper in a nearby town. He had a family
of ten children, he has eleven now.
Mr. HAELL: And still going strong.
The WIWESS: At the end of the year, when they struck a balance with
this grocer for dairy produce, and eggs, and so forth, he owed him money.
The CHAIRMAN: The storekeeper owed him money?
The WITIESS: Yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. Even in the drought?---A. Yes. He owns a quarter-section and has
some land about six miles away for pasture land, and he rents a section--one-
third crop. :Now, he does not have the overhead to pay on this section, or the
taxes, so bear that in mind while I am reading off his capital investment. His
total investment is $15,589.50, and the average for the year was $16,700.00. His
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
a---24
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 371
APPENDIX No. 3
By the Chairman:
Q. Would you call this man a typical farmer?--A. I would call this man the
best farmer in that district.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Not a typical farmer? A. No.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. :He is a super-man? A. Yes. :He has an extraordinary wife. He has
a large family which does a lot of labour. I will analyze that later on when
we get more complete records, to show how that goes into it. Not only that,
but he did not have the interest charges on that section of land. :He rented it,
he supplied the labour, and got one-third of the crop. The houses were there,
and he got one-third of the crop.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. :How much crop did this man put in?--A. You have it analyzed there,
have you not?
By Mr. McKay:
Q. :How much did you allow this fellow for brain work?---A. Just the same,
$1,000.
By Mr. ,Sales:
Q. Does this show how much he has under cultivation? It shows, "Field,
field, field."--A. Is it not analyzed there?
Q. No.--A. He has one man. I could give you that off hand.
(A discussion between the Witness and Mr. Sales off the record).
By Mr. lllilne:
Q. Did this man keep any stock?--A. Yes.
Mr. SALES: Well, Mr. Chairman, he has 520 acres perfectly clear, under
cultivation, worked by himself and one man. I am beginning to think those
three small boys played a large part in it.
lir. ELLIOTT: And his wife.
By Mr. Sale:
Q. :Has he got any" girls? Do they work in the fields--A. They milk the
cows night and morning. I have the figures, and I intend to analyze that.
The CHAIRMAN: May I make a suggestion? We have sat here for more
than two hours this morning, and sat for two hours this afternoon, and I (to
not think that we have nearly finished with Mr. Grant's evidence, which I think
we are all finding very interesting. My suggestion would be that we adiourn
and meet again to-morrow morning at half-past ten.
By Mr. Salea: ,
Q. Do your statements go into his dairy products, his beef products, or
pork, or have you analyzed that?--A. I will. I could tell you roughly to-
morrow morning. I will have that in about three months. I have not it
now, but I could get it. I could only get his financial statement for you, in
the week's time which you gave me.
Witness retired.
3--24
|Mr. l=I. C. Grant.]
372 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
The CttAIRh:IAN: Before we adjourn, let me read the following telegram
which I received from Mr. Thomas Robb this morning. Mr. Robb is secre-
tary of the Shipping Federation, and I communicated vith him by telephone
this morning. He replied as follows:
"Referring your telephone message have discussed situation with
Donald Munro, 401 Board of Trade, vho is in position to secure space and
make all shipping arrangements from start to finish. Would recommend
your friends getting in touch with him giving number of head and when
available for shipment. At present no space available until opening
navigation Montreal. Important prompt action. Old Country buyers
in market and have already booked considerable space for May ship-
merits.
Thos. Robb."
The Committee adjourned until Wednesday, March 28, at 11 a.m.
HOI:SE OF COI,IMONS,
"" *..' ' COlkI[ITTEE ROOM 268,
WEDNFSDAY, March 28,1923.
The Special Connnittee appointed to enquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 11 o'clock a.m., the Chairman, Mr. McMaster, pre-
siding.
The CttAII:IVIA:N: I wish to lay before the Committee a letter which I have
received from Mr. Donald Munro, Live Stock Export Agent, Montreal, who
writes me as follows under yesterday's date:
"Montreal, March 27th, 1923.
A. R. MacMaster, Esq., K.C., M.P.,
House of Commons,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir,--
Mr. Robb, manager of the Shipping Federation, interviewed me this
morning in connection with a telephone message which he received from
y.ou regarding the shipment of some cattle by the Alberta Government.
I will be very pleased to have full details of the number of cattle
for which space is required, and when they will be available for shipment.
Incidentally I may mention that there is no space available until the
opening of navigation from Montreal.
There has been quite a flurry in the market during the past few days,
and a considerable part of the May space has been taken by old country
buyers, at 22.50 and I understand that as high as 25 dollars has been
offered for some of the earlier boats by these people.
In order to give you some idea of the requirements of the Scottish
markets I take the liberty of sending you a booklet issued by one of the
old country firms which I represent, the booklet contains a lot of very
valuable, and reliable information regarding the Scottish markets, and
the classes of cattle best suited for them. And, as you are Chairman of
the Committee inquiring into Agricultural matters, you may find some
information that will be of value to the farmers of Canada.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION 373
APPENDIX No. 3
Incidentally I may mention that the Ontario Government asked for
1,000 copies for distribution from their special Live stock train now
touring the Province of Ontario.
Should the Alberta Government communicate with me for space, I
will give their order my best attention, and am in a position to handle
their business from start to finish.
I remain,
Yours very truly,
I will hand this letter to Air. Gardiner.
DONALD MUNRO.
(Sgd.) D.M."
We will now proceed with the
witness, Mr. Grant. My suggestion is this morning that Mr. Grant finish his
statement, and that Mr. Milne ask him whatever questions suggest themselves
to him, as he is from the same province.
H. C. GRANT recalled.
WITNESS: I would like to refer to the last point which we took up yesterday
in connection with farm "D." You remember that I showed you he had made
18-5 per cent on his investment, and I also pointed out that he was renting a
section of land and only owned a quarter. Now, if he had owned that section of
land, paid the taxes and the interest, that would have given him a charge of
$1,030. Out of those receipts which I showed you yesterday, he had approximately
$4,000, which he received from threshing operations; that is, outside of his
farming operations. Now, his farm income was $4,303; that is, where we get
our 18 per cent. I will leave you to figure it out.
By the Chairman:
Q: Do not leave us to figure out anything; give us the whole thing.--A. If
he had $4,303, which gave him 18 per cent interest, and he was farming that
much land under ordinary conditions, that is as owner and not as tenant, and
had to pay his taxes and interest and had not made and money out of extra
labour, that is out of threshing, his farm income would practically have been
nil.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. You say that this man rented a quarter section of land? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what rent he would pay for it?--A. On crop shares, one-
third.
Q. Your contention is that if he had owned that land his net revenue would
have been reduced?--A. Yes, exactly.
Q. Then it is not profitable to own land?--A. It probably is not. Mr. Hains-
worth has asked me for advice as to whether he should buy that section this
year, and I will tell him no, that it is better to get on under the present arrange-
ment.
The CHAIRMAN: I would suggest that we let Mr. Grant finish his statement,
and then question him.
WXTNESS: I would like to take up another farm.
Plan of Farm "E" filed as Exhibit 27. Records of "E" farm filed as
Exhibit 28.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Will there be any difference in this farm, there seems to be a uniformity
in all these farms? A. This is the last farm I have.
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
374 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Is there anything particular with regard to it?---A. Yes. It is a farm
which I consider one of the best mixed farms in that district. This man is
actually trying to start mixed farming, and I would like to give the results.
Q. You are reported in the press this morning, as practically saying that
all of that western country is useless, that farming is not paying. That is the
report we get in the Citizen. Your evidence along that line is putting a very
black cloud over the western country. You are practically obliterating the
whole of the people of that country, and leaving it to the Hudson Bay Company
to be supreme. Personally, I do not like to see this report going out?--A. I was
asked yesterday, if I considered farming to-day a good business proposition,
and I am not going to deny my statement either.
Mr. '[ILNE: Do you think, Dr. McKay, that it is wise to keep it under
our hat, if what he says is true?
Mr. McKAY: :No, but hlr. Grant made the statements that farming is not
paying. Now, if there is no remedy--he does not say that there is any remedy.
hlr. MI]A<E: We are coming to that.
The CAmMn: Let me lust say this, that it would be very unfair to judge
of a witness or of what he says, by the headlines in a newspaper. Journalism
always picks upon the most striking and the most picturesque way of putting
things.
Mr. McKnY: Will you allow me to read this? {Reads) :
" Claims Farming cannot be made to Pay in West.
'Do you think that as a commercial proposition, farming can be made a
success in the west?' asked Mr. Elliott, Progressive of Waterloo, in the special
committee on agriculture yesterday afternoon.
':No,' replied the witness, Harry Grant, Hudson Bay official of Winnipeg,
who has been making a special study of farm accounts.
' Has farming been a success on that basis for any long period in the history
of Canada?' asked A. R. McMaster, chairman of the committee. To this ques-
tion too the witness replied in the negative.
'Do you think the men who take up land under the Canada Colonization
Association will have a good chance?' asked Thomas Sales, Progressive, Salt-
coats.
'I don't think they will have very much chance,' was the answer."
WTSS: Under present conditions, I answer "yes."
Mr. ELLIOTT: I think this evidence is absolutely in line with what we have
been getting, and therefore is absolutely correct.
Mr. hIILNE: Will you read what professor Leitch said?
hIr. McKY: It is along the same lines, I admit all that.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. What do you mean by under present conditions? A. If you will allow
me to complete my statement as to this farm, I will give you a brief synopsis
of what I consider present conditions in the west. I have it here.
The CHnmMh: The Chairman wishes that the witness be allowed to con-
tinue his statement, and the Chairman also wishes that anybody who desires to
ask him questions should ask him the questions that occur to him.
WTESS: This mixed farm, the average capital investment was $17,219.53.
His receipts from crops were $1,878.97. Receipts from live stock $1,309.15.
Receipts from live stock products $295.30. Miscellaneous receipts $366.50. His
total receipts were $3,849.92. Live stock purchased $200. Other cash farm
expenses $2,272.52. Decrease of capital $1,930.50. Total expenses $4,493.03.
So the farm income for a year's business shows a loss of $553.11. :Now, if we
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 375
APPENDIX No. 3
allow him interest on his investment it shows that his labour income is nil, and
that the loss on his business for the year is 3-2 per cent. In other words, he
neither was paid for his labour, nor received interest on his investment, and
besides it cost $533.11 last year. This farmer has a small herd of pure-bred
Ayrshire cattle. He has a silo; he has a nucleus of pure-bred Clydesdales, and
his farm plan will show that he is growing corn, for silage, and rye, and that
altogether it is what we would call in that district a very fine mixed farm. :Now
these are the returns from this farm, and they are indicative of a man's attempt
to introduce mixed farming in this district. I should say that during the year,
farmer E had his herd inspected by the Dominion Government for tuberculosis,
and a number of his cattle re-acted, and were slaughtered. That accounts to a
certain extent for the decrease in his capital. But the Government, of course,
recompensed him to a certain percentage on that. I understand it is 75 or 80
per cent on pure-bred stock. So that accounts for some of his loss, but not all
of it.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. What part of the province is this farm located in?--A. South of Delor-
aine, on the edge of the mountain. That is the last farm I have brought with me.
I may say that in regard to two of the farms that I surveyed this year, I stopped
keeping accounts this fall, because the results would have been so disastrous; they
have practically been wiped out by the hail. There is one other farm on the Port-
age plain; he was a renter, a young man who had every possibility. He had had
two years at our college, two years' experience in southern Alberta. Hc has now a
very important position on one of the agricultural papers as live stock editor.
He tried farming under the renting system last year, and went under. Another
farm in the south--the farmer gave up because he could not make it go. So I
did not use his record. He sold out this fall. He had been there for fifteen or
eighteen years.
Q. Did he rent his farm?---A. The last one? No, he was owner.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. By renting, you mean crop shares?---A. Yes, crop shares.
The CHAmN: Before Mr. Grant goes on to another phase of his evidence,
I think perhaps we had better question him a little. What do you think Mr.
Milne?
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Tell about the man who was there 15 or 18 years? Was he a good
farmer? Did he understand his business? A. Yes.
Q. Did he have cheap land in the beginning?--A. Yes.
The CHAm: It is very hard for the stenographer to take it if you
start asking him a question and piling on another question before he has a
chance to answer.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I want to know the conditions. A. This farmer is considered quite an
old established farmer in the district, and he has a ve, nice farm there but he
is getting on fairly well in years at the present time, however. He has two
small children of about 12 or 14 years of age, who have not been able to give
him a great deal of assistance on the farm. The last four years in that district
have been rather disastrous; and he said to me, "I have got so far in debt that
I see nothing for my boy in taking over the farm, so I am going to sell out and
take him to the city to give him a chance."
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 379
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Was the cream sent to the creamery? A. Yes, it was sent to the
creamery.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. What would you figure the value of that farm per acre was? A
has 346 acres, and we valued it at $12,127.50. Does that answer your state-
ment, Mr. Sales?
Q. How are the taxes in that localitv?--A. Does that answer your state-
ment as to the diversification of his farm.
hlr. SALES: I vas trying to figure up how much the valuation was here.
About $35 an acre?--A. Approximately that, I should imagine. In answer to
your question, his tax is fixed for the year. It is $95.42.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. On the value of the acreage?-A. Yes. Interest on the mortage, $667.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. How much per acre was it taxed?--A. That is the total tax, $95.42.
The average for that district is around $40.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. These 6 cows are Ayrshire cows?--A. Yes.
Q. Have you got any record of how much he consumed at home? $274
oes not look to be a very big return because Mr. Motherwell states lie could
get $300 from one company, although I rather doubt it.--A. These cows were
slaughtered, you see; I have four or five of them, about the last of June or
early in July.
Q. The $270 would only be for the production over a certain period?--
A. Only over a certain period; it is not a business for the year.
Mr. STANSELL: In connection with that kind of farming, with which I am
familiar to some extent, I think it would be difficult to tell what it would cost
a man to produce cream and milk, because he would not have a set of books
kept accurately enough. In the production of pure bred cattle, possibly the
most important consideration is the production and gro%h of the young stock,
because they have a value that can be measured in the production of milk
and cream. Of course that is almost a side line in that particular branch of
farming. A man has milk left over for his calves, and if he has calves from
common stock, he does not keep them on milk as long; lie keeps the others
considerably longer, and it will be almost impossible for him to show a fair
return from say these six cows. It would be almost impossible for a man to tell
what his cream will cost him if he keeps a certain kind of animal which is not
thoroughbred.
hIr. ELLIOTT: It would all show in the value of the young stock, would
it not?
Mr. STANSELL: Yes, it is shown in the amount of cream produced per
COW.
WITNESS: We cannot get any evidence from this farm I am speaking of as
a dairy farm.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Have you any record of dairying, among your records?--A. :No, sir.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. You have no other figures upon which you have compiled your records?
--A. That is correct.
[lIr. YL C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 383
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. They will keep it down?---A. Yes, but we do not try that over a vast
area; we did it on certain lands at the College
Q. Has the raising of sheep proved to be unprofitable?---A. I have no data
as to that.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. They do not eradicate the weeds?--A. No. I have been through the
woods and along the highways, and the seed blows constantly on the land
you are working. We will never get rid of sow-thistle, but I think we will
be able to fight it.
By Dr. McKay:
Q. Have you a Noxious Wceds Act in the Provinces?---A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Do they have sow-thistle in Deloraine?--A. No, but they have Russian
thistles.
By Dr. McKay:
Q. All these tl, ins emphasize the hazard of farming life--storms, hail,
thistles, weeds, and everything else? A. Yes, sir.
hlr. SUT:HERLA:ND: And oleomargarine.
WTESS: I will show how we arrived at our cost estimates. I have
one here called Receipts and Expenses. Each farmer has these three sets of
books; they will show how we get the figures. He puts down in July say,
Farm Receipts and Expenses. At the end of the month he sends these in,
at least the District representative, or as I hope to do this through the Soldiers
Settlement Board, the District Supervisor collects these at the end of the month
and sends them to my office. I keep these sheets in my office, and I have a set
for each farmer.
By the Chairman:
Q. When you say "these sheets," what are those sheets?---A. These are
really his books; he just gives me his data, and I keep his books in my office.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That is, he has a book of Receipts and Expenses? A. Yes.
Q. For each and every month? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You summarize the statement? A. I distribute it.
By Dr. _,llcKay :
Q. Is it verified? A. Yes;" the district representative or agricultural super-
visor of the Soldiers Settlement Board visits the farmer once a month. We do
not ask them to swear that these things are correct, of course. If you will
turn to Feed, you will see that I have made up a record for feed. I go out
and weigh up his utensils, ask him how much hay he feeds, and weigh that, and
he puts it in his Feed items for the month and sends that sheet in, and we keep
a Feed record in the same way as we keep his Cash record. We also have a
daily labour sheet, and he puts in that all the daily labour he does, such as
ploughing of wheat; he fills that out every day, and they come in to my office
at the end of the month. I then make out a Labour sheet. For instance here
is a Labour sheet for corn; we distribute that under ploughing, harrowing,
cultivating, seeding and so forth, and when we have all this data at the end of
the year we take this Cost of Production and Distribution sheet, and it contains
[Mr. l:L C. Gran*.l
384 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
all the figures, such as work, horse cost, charges for horses, his labour for wheat,
a.nd make a charge for horse labour and so forth. Here is man labour cost,
pasture cost, and productive stock. We distribute that. For instance, here
is the first charge against that.; we put in the total man hours from these
sheets and the next thing is the man hours per acre, the total horse hours, the
horse hours per acre, and the total tractor hours, the tractor hours per acre,
carrying down that wheat. We come to the expense item, man labour, horse
labour, what it costs him for feed, manure, twine, treating material, threshing,
machinery charge, summer fallow, pasture charge, interest on cash overhead,
crop insurance, and we have at the end of the year the total charges for his
wheat, the total charges for all his operations, and the same way with cattle.
I will distribute the cattle charges the same way. There is feed, building
charges, interest on the investment. We will photograph this sheet and send
a copy to the farmer and include one copy in my report, and this sheet will
show him just exactly how much labour--you see if you refer back to the sheet
we have figured that that only gives you the cash expenses of the general farm
business; if he wants to find if he nmde any money on wheat or oats or what
his building charges were, those items are all there, and it shows actually
what enterprises of his business paid, and what lost, and he can find out where
the money went here. That also shows what his labour charge was, and what
his horse labour charge was.
Coming from this sheet, I take all the sheets I get from these farmers
and I will publish them; this is what I will send you if you so desire, what
I call a farm analysis of these factors. That is, trying to find out from these
farmers lust where they lost, where they made money, and what the relation
is, for instance, to the labour and investment and things like that.
EXHIBIT 'O. 29
1.--]:)ISTRIBUTION OF INVESTMENT
istrict
Portage Plains ...........
SouthWestern ............
Farm.,
Per cent Total Investment in
hy Seed
Total
Investment
per Farm
A comparison of the distribution of investment for the two districts which
will indicate not only the variation in type of farming but show also the influ-
ence the past five years of drought and poor crops in the south has exerted on
present fixed overhead charges by having prevented increasing and inflated
land values and by having prohibited the farmers from accumulating high
priced tools of production, buildings, automobiles, etc.
[Mr. H. C. Grant.l
SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
EXHIBIW NO. 33
T^LE 5. DISTRIBUTION OF EXPENSES AND TOTAL EXPENSES PER FARM
Per cent of Total Expenses For
Potage Pla ............ 100
8outhwern ............. 100
The distribution of expenses should indicate the weakness or strength of
present day farm organization. A careful study of this chart will bring out the
relative importance of some expenses which have been generally overlooked
by the farming population and the public in general.
These expenses, which will be analysed--I will take an average, and they
are feed, hired labour, family labour, operator's labour, management, build-
ing repairs, building depredation, machinery repairs, machinery depreciation,
miscellaneous, dwelling depreciation, and the totals.
EXIIIBIT NO. 34
T^s 6.--IECEIPS, EXPENSES AND NET LOSS OR GAIN
]
Average Per cent' Per cent
Average
Expenses Average Net Net Loss Gain
District Operating including Gross Loss Gain on on
Expenses Inventory Income per Farm per Farm nvest- Invest-
Loss ment ment
Portage Plains ............................................................ I ........
Southwestern .......................... 1 ................................ ] .......... I ........ ] ..........
This chart shows at a glance the profitableness of farming for 1922 on the
farms studied.
EXI-IIBIT :No. 35
T^L 7. COST OF VARIOUS ITEMS
Wheat .................
Oats ...................
Barley .................
Potatoes ...............
Corn Silage ............
Fallow .................
Acre Cost
Total
Yield
per
Acre
Cost
Unit
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 387
APPENDIX No. 3
The average acre cost, yield, and cost per unit will be given in this table.
An analysis of the cost should be the basis for recommending changes in farm
cropping practices. There will also be a chart presented showing the average
man and horse hours for each crop operation, which when presented as a cash
expense will show in fact the actual profit of certain methods of field management.
The relationship of high wages, machinery to net profit will also be analysed.
EXHIBIT NO. 36
TBLE 8.--COSTS PER ACRE. YIELD--COSTS PER UNIT
Portage Plains .....
Southwestern ........
Wheat
Acre Cost ......
Yield ..........
Unit Cost ......
Acre Cost ......
Yield .........
IUnit Cost ......
Oat,
Barley
Summer
Fallow
Rye
Potatoes
Corn
Fodder
Corll
Silage
The above chart will show the relative profitableness of the various crop
enterprises. This actual analysis will present the same result as the cost school
and an interesting comparison should result.
EXHIBIT O. 37
TABLE 9. LABOUR AND POWER COSTS PER FARM AND PER UNIT
Portage Plains ...............
Southwestern ....................
The efficient use of labour and power requirements is a potent factor in pro-
fitable agriculture. These results will not only afford the individual farmer with
a knowledge of the leaks in his own business but when grouped as above and
expressed as an average will fortify the argument for better farming methods
to increase profits.
EXHIBIT :No. 38
TAE 10. COST OF KEEPING FARM WORK HORSES
AMOUNT PER HEAD COST PER HEAD
Portage Plains .............
Southwestern ..............
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS
APPENDIX No. 3
EXHIBIT NO. 47
T^LE 19. UNPRODUCTIVE LABOUR ACCORDING TO SIZE OF BUSINESS
391
Range o[
Expenses
Less $2,000 ......
$5,000 over ....
Average...
Farms
Man Hours per Farm For
Total
EXHIBIT NO. 48
T^BLE 20. COST OF TRACTOR OPERATION
-- Value
Dcpre- Interest Fuel Repair Total
ciation on Cost Cost Annual
Investment Cost
A study of tractor or horses could not be comprehensively made in Manitoba
last year. The low price of oats and high price of kerosene practically prohibited
the use of tractors and only meagre records were available. Figures will be
produced however showing complete costs of threshing operations.
EXHIBIT NO. 49
The following charts will also be prepared, showing by graphical method:--
1. Distribution of investment.
2. Distribution of expenses.
3. Items of cost of an acre of wheat.
4. Distribution of cost of keeping cattle.
By the Chairman:
Q. Who worked out this scheme of accounting, yourself?---A. I worked it out
from various schemes of cost accounting. That is, I have studied practically all
the systems from Czecho-Slovakia to the American system, and adopted a
system which I thought was good.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. The American system is a growth of the European system?--A. Yes, it
is a growth, but it is much more comprehensive, I think. For instance, they
sent me a copy from London, England, for only one farm.
By Mr. Bouchard:
Q. Have they a uniform system in England?--A. In the States.
Q. Why not adopt that here in Canada?--A. I think it is the only way.
The way I look at this, I realize my studies are not comprehensive at all,
fMr. H. C. Grant.]
392 PEC1AL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
and it is just a start, but it is something that is new in Canada, it is the first
it has been done in western Canada at all, and I feel this, that the Dominion
government should really conduct this work, that is, through establishing a
Department of Economics. Then, for instance, like in Manitoba, I would conduct
the cost accounting for Manitoba, conditions, and as in the United States the
Federal government would supply me one man. We would get a uniform system,
so you could interpret my result here and then you would have all these figures
and you would not need to call me from Manitoba.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Grant, your figures are most interesting, but you are not proceeding
along the same lines as Mr. Leitch. For instance, Mr. Leitch made an allowance
for what the farmer got, his living, off the farm, and also credited the farm
with the house rent, if I remember rightly. Now, 1 would ask you this question:
do you, in your investigations, allow anything to the farmer as a commercial
operation for what it affords for tile needs, the personal needs, of the farmer and
the house which affords him shelter for his family? A. First, I wish to make
this statement. As you said, I differ from Mr. Leitch. Remember, the state-
ment I gave you from these seven farms is actual receipts and expenses. We
cannot include in that what the farmer received, but when I analyse the actual
farm work from the whole statement, I will do that, and I will also charge or
credit the farm with a monthly rent for the house, you see, and also credit
them--I have the figures--with how much the farmer got from the farm itself.
Q. Let me just sum up. If I am right, I think this is important, and should
come out. Would a more favourable aspect of farming in Canada, east or
west, not be presented if when establishing the reward for farming industry in
the manner in which you have endeavoured to establish it, you added or credited
the farm with the living which the farmer gets from it, to a greater or less
extent? A. Yes, and I will do that when I make up my final sheets, within
two or three months, but the farm cash expenses and receipts which I gave you
before do not include that.
Q. Let me just illustrate that point by an example. I can suppose---you
will correct me if I am wrong--I can suppose a farmer with a large family, who
has got a turn for gardening, and whose wife is a good butter maker, and
who has some sheep of his own--I could imagine that that farmer's cash income
might be insufficient to pay him interest on the capital invested, and for his
own wages, but who by reason of the amount of stuff that he got off his garden,
and the living of his family, the eggs, pork, beef, orchard fruits of all sorts,
vegetable products, that came from the garden, and the wool that he got from
his sheep--I can understand his family being in very comfortable circumstances
in spite of the fact that on a purely commercial basis the farm does not pay;
is that an unwarrantable assumption? A. No. I would say this, in answer to
that; you must remember that I was dealing with those seven farms as a busi-
ness, and when the farmer gets a living off the farm it is just his personal
expenses, you see. For instance, you do not include your expenses, your house-
hold expenses in your law practice, and a hardware merchant would not include
it in his business expenses.
Q. I think that calls for a remark; I think I am in the sense of the Com-
mittee when I say that the social end and the business end of the farm business
are so closely connected that you cannot make that distinction which you car
with an ordinary business. Am I right?
[Mr. l:I. C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL COND1TION 393
APPENDIX No. 3
Mr. StEs: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have had an experience in the city of
Regina. You might divide that city into two portions, east of Broad street it
is inhabited by foreign people; west it is mostly inhabited by English people.
Mostly German or foreign people, living in what we call Germantown in Regina,
all of them have their own gardens surrounding their own houses, and at night
you can see their wives and families cultivating the garden. These people are
living there and saving money while at the same time our English people, who
will not do that kind of thing are eating ice cream and sitting in the picture shows
declaring that they cannot live. The point I am making is this, that the farm
garden produce is raised by the labour of the wife and children generally, and
if the city man would follow the same practice as these people in Regina do,
they would also produce a part of their own living.
Mr. BOCHARD: The trouble is that you cannot get the land in the city.
Mr. SALES: In this city that may possibly be so, but my point is that a
large part of this living is earned by the wife and children, whose labour never
appears in a cost sheet.
The WIWNEss: That applies, too, to the income from the dairy cows
and the poultry. The woman usually does that in her spare time
or extra time, and to charge that up as a part of the farm business, I do not
think that is fair at all.
Mr. MLNE: No, I cannot see if the garden is conducted in the after office
hours, by the wife and family and the man as well, why he should not get that.
That is an extra, he puts in that extra timc, and if you want to charge him
rent for the farm, very well, but it seems to me if he is ambitious enough to do
that outside of working hours he should get it.
Mr. SWaNSLL: I think, Mr. Chairman, that that point is well taken, because
if you undertake t5 estimate the butter which the wife makes, and the garden pro-
duce that the children help with, then you must allow these people wages for what
they do. In your practice you would not consider that, your wife might be
a writer for a magazine and you would not count that in your own business.
She might make a considerable revenue from it.
Mr. SALES: This fact must be placed before the Committee and especially
before you, Mr. Chairman. The farm-house is turned into a factory. For
instance, we kill our own pork. That must be attended to in the house,
salted and the lard must be rendered, the sausage made, and all the rest of it.
Our fruit is canned and preserved and so on, and a whole lot of this work is
done which the city wife evades by going to the store and buying in cans, and
f we were to follow the same practice in the country we would simply be
bankrupt in a very short time. That point cannot be too strongly emphasized,
because on the farm you must put in many hours on this kind of work, which
the city woman does not know anything of.
The WIWNESS: May I lust say this; your attitude, Mr. McMaster, reminds
me of the first time I left home to work. I worked for a farmer, and when it
came to the end of the summer, he said, "Well, here are your wages, my boy,"
and I said, "How much is it?", and he said, "$10 a month," and I had worked
right with the men in the field. I said, "That seems pretty low for me," and
he said, "Yes, but look at the money you have saved; if you had been in town
you would have been going to shows and buying ice cream and so on." Now,
you would penalize the farmer in the same way.
The CHAIRMAN: NO. I do not want any darker picture to be drawn of
agricultural conditions than are warranted by the real facts. I think that if
you put farms on a purely commercial basis you will find only a very rare farm
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
394 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
from Nova Scotia to British Columbia which will pay, on a purely financial
basis, and I think that in all fairness to the farming industry, as one of the
great activities of this country, there should be taken into consideration the
fact that the farmer is able to produce--of course, it means labour--but he
is able to produce a certain amount of his living which the city man has got
to buy, and I quite grant what Mr. Milne says, and what Mr. Stansell says, and
if you are going to get an absolutely correct accounting system you would have
to not only credit the farm with the living, but you would have to debit the
farm with the labour of the wife and children and so on.
/Ir. STANSELL: Absolutely; if you put it on a commercial basis.
The CHAIRMAN: In answer to that, it might be said that the farmer and
his wife and children may get a certain amount of pleasure in growing vege-
tables, which the city man gets in growing flowers.
5:It. GARDINER: You would charge that "pleasure" of the farmer as an
amusement?
Mr. SA]s: Iay I point out here, because I think this is a question of
importance, that the farmer's daughters to-day do not take very kindly to this
thing. For instance I lived four miles from a little town, and I have six girls.
My girls have all been in the habit of assisting their mother in the garden. About
1917, when the automobiles began to come in evidence so much, we would
have the young banker and the young lavycr and the storekeeper come down
with a girl or two, drive into our yard, where our girls would be tending to the
garden in the cool of the evening. They would drive into our yard and invite
ny girls for a ride. They would say to them, "I would not stick around and
hoe the garden. You must get around." You can easily see the position
of farm life on the social side. Let me give one more illustration. I went
into the house of one of my friends some years ago, and he was looking very
downhearted. Ordinarily he was a very cheerful man. I asked, "What is
the matter?" He said, "I have got to sell my cows." I asked why, and he
replied, "The girls will not milk any longer." Now both of those girls had
second-class certificates, and this was their complaint: "We cannot go to
church, we cannot go to picnics, we cannot go to anything without having to
go home to milk those blamed old cows, and we are through with it." That
is the statement one of them made. She said, "I can go out and get $1.200 a
.year by teaching school, starting at 9 o'clock, and finishing at 4 o'clock, and that
is more than you can make out of those old cows altogether."
Mr. HAMMELL: If every-body did that sort of thing, where would we
be at?
Mr. SALES: That kind of argument has no bearing on the girls. They say
they can go out and earn $1,200. The thing has got to that pitch. This kind
of life has got out of balance or out of proportion to the life on the farm.
The CHAIRMAN: In other words, your view is that the reward of labour in
the farming industry is away below the reward of labour in other spheres of
activity?
Mr. SAES: Absolutely. The more boys and girls get educated, the more
their powers of comparison develop, and they will not stand for that kind of
thing. That is the chief difficulty in my mind.
The WITNESS: May I make this statement, from my own knowledge of educa-
tional conditions in the West? There is an increase in our own province of the
number of students from the country who are going into Arts, Law and
Medicine. There is a decrease in those studying Agriculture, and if you ask
any of those students, and I know most of them, they say--they realize that
[Mr. It. C. Grant.]
398 SPECIAL COMMITTEI
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
the city. It is also a mistake to assume, as is so frequently done, that the
problem of rural depopulation. The vast increase in urban centres, during the
last ten )'ears, has been accredited at the expense of rural districts. Such is not
strictly the case. It may have its serious aspects, but it is not a problem of first
magnitude. City growth is derived from four sources--incorporation, natural
increase, migration from the country and immigration. Figures show that
natural increase accounts for about twenty per cent of the city increase, immi-
gration 65 to 70 per cent (American Journal of Sociology, XVI: 648-661).
Nor can the movement to cities which does take place be prevented. The
basic and inevitable factors which develop a country are largely accountable
for the situation. The farmers' producing capacity has been doubled and his
produce supports double the original number.
We have laid too much stress, however, on increased production. The
farmers' isolation, the necessity for independent or family unit production, the
wide variety of products grown upon the average farm, the seasonable pro-
duction and marketing of staple crops, resulting in market gluts, and the uncer-
tainty of income are the factors which constitute the inherent weakness of
agriculture. Certain ills of the farmer to-day arise from these fundamental
weaknesses and date from the last century, others developed during the war;
some were consequences of the boom, and others were the backwash of the down
wave of the business cycle.
The basic fact of the economics of the world during 1920 and 1921 from
the standpoint of price was that in each country the gold prices of raw
materials declined precipitously. The decline began in 1919 and lasted with
some commodities in some countries until the fall of 1921. The decline was
from a peak of very high prices, the ascent of which occurred in three stages.
The first result of the declaration of war was a transient fall of prices. This
was followed by a gradual increase until the United States entered the war,
when prices became fairly stabilized. Following armistice a transient decline
of prices occurred. This was succeeded by a rapid increase, the peak varying
for most commodities from two and one-alf to three and one-half times the
pre-war figures. The decline was more rapid than the ascent.
Throughout public discussions two assumptions appeared, seldom stated
openly, but suggested inferentially. The first is that the agricultural products
of the Canadian farmer were hit particularly hard; the second that the decline
in price of agricultural products exceeded that of minerals, metals and forest
products.
Q. What does your chart show?--A. This chart starts at 1900 and shows
the comparison up to 1921 of the price of wheat and textiles and the variation
that occurs during those years by index numbers.
Q. Did they follow one the other, or how did it go?--A. During 1917,
1918, 1919, 1920 and 1921 tex%iles were over wheat.
Q. That is to say the increase in the price of textiles was greater than the
increase in the price of wheat?:--A. In 1917 wheat was about $2.55; textiles
were about the same.
Q. That is, taking your basic number as 1007 A. Yes. In 1918 wheat
was about $2.90; textiles around $3.60. In 1920 textiles $3.90 almost; wheat
was about $3.50. Not. $3.50; about $3.20.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. ;Not $3.20 a bushel?--A. This is the index mmber, percentage increase.
In 1921 all the figures on tex%iles were about $2.30, approximately; wheat
$1.50.
[lYlr. YI. C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 399
APPENDIX No. 3
By the Chairman:
Q. It would be interesting to follow that out for 1922. You could get that
from the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.--A. I might say I am carrying on this
in my office but I have not got the cut made for it. Now, the next chart is
the comparison of prices of vheat and wages of farm labour. Wheat prices
increased more rapidly than farm wages during the war. But likewise fell
more rapidly when prices declined. The next chart is a comparison of prices
of wheat and farm machinery. The prices of farm machinery did not raise
rapidly until the latter part of the war. They reached the peak after the wheat
prices began to decline.
The weighted average price for 31 farm products in June, 1921, was 106,
when the five-years' average before the war is called 100.
The price of copper was 88, coal 210. crude oil 154, pig iron 155. Freight
rates varied from 138 to 231 per cent of the pre-war average. Wholesale prices
of "all commodities" were 151 per cent of the pre-war average.
If prices of farm products should long remain at such unusual ratios to
other prices and charges, the most far reaching changes in agriculture would
take place.
Q. These charts that you have produced here, from whence do they come?
--A. Those are based on the Labour Gazette reports and the weighted prices
are based on Fort William.
Q. Did you prepare them yourself?--A. I assisted in the preparation of
those.
Q. Have they appeared in any magazine or anything so that we might get
them? A. These are part of our agricultural survey report. It has not been
published and I do not think it will be published.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Whose agricultural survey?--A. The Manitoba Government; the Mani-
toba College.
Q. You do not think they will be published? A. :No.
Q. What is the matter with them?--A. I do not know.
Q. You do not want to say?
By Mr. McKay:
Q. :No funds?
By the Chairman:
Q. Are you working under the Government of :Manitoba?--A. :Not
now, no.
Q. Did you acquire the knowledge while you had been working for the
Manitoba Government?--A. I would not like to make the statement.
Q. I do not think we should press it.--A. I will read that again.
" The weighted average price for thirty-one farm products in June 1921,
was 106, when the five sears' average before the war is called 100.
"The price of copper was 88, coal 210, crude oil 154, pig iron 155. Freight
rates varied from 138 to 231 per cent of the pre-war average. Wholesale prices
of " all commodities " were 151 per cent of the pre-war average.
" If prices of farm products should long remain at such unusual ratios to
other prices and charges, the most far reaching changes in agriculture would
take place. The types of farming in different sections of Canada are largely
determined by freight rates. Any change in the ratio of rates to prices causes
a readiustment of farming."
Q. What is the relationship between farm products and " all commodi-
ties"?--A. 151 to 106.
[Mr. l=I. C. Grant.]
400 SPECIAL COMMITTEt
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. 106 for farm products; 151 wholesale prices?--A. Yes.
Q. What farm products? A. 31 farm products.
Q. That is 100 being taken as an average for the five years before the
war? A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You said something there about how farming was changed?--A. The
types of farming in different sections of Canada are largely determined by
freight rates. Any change in the ratio of rates and prices causes a readjustment
in farming.
I am not writing a book on econonics: this is just a statement I am making.
Q. Do you wish to elaborate that?--A. It will take about fifteen or twenty
pages to do t.
By the Chairman:
Q. May I ask you this question, Mr. Grant, something I have had up with
the Dominion Statistician. A farmer does not buy at wholesale prices, he
buys at retail prices?--A. Yes.
Comparison of Farm and Wholesale Prices
When wholesale prices rise suddenly, retail prices lag behind. Much of
the goods in the hands of the retailers is sold at or near the old price. When
prices fall rapidly retail prices again tend to fall slowly. Prices in small
towns change more slowly than in cities, because of the slow turnover.
Farmers thus sell on a quickly moving market and buy on a slow market,
hence when a sudden and violent drop in prices occurs they sell at low prices
long before any reduction occurs in the price of things that they buy. Wholesale
prices do not show the conditions on farms.
Mr. SALES: That is the very point.
WITESS: When prices suddenly fall, farm prices drop much more than
wholesale, and very much more than retail prices. For example, take the case
when a product sells for $3.00 wholesale and $2.00 on the farms. If the whole-
sale price drops 33 per cent the farm price will drop 50 per cent or nearly to
$1.00. The reason for this is that freight and many other costs of marketing
are based on the physical quantity handled, not on price.
The Purchasing Power of Farm Products
The increased yield in 1922 did not bring a relative increase in the value
of the products. The purchasing power on June 1st, 1921, compared with five
year average before the war was, Wheat 93, Oats 60, Barley 53, Potatoes 64,
Chickens 116, Eggs 77, Butter 83, Milk Cows 80, Beef Cattle 69, Veal Calves 73,
Sheep 66, Lambs 79, Wool 58, Hogs 67, Horses 45. Practically nothing that the
farmer sells can be exchanged for the usual quantity of other things. It is
physically impossible for the farmers to absorb the products of the factories.
The weighted average of 31 farm products is 70 per cent of the pre-war average.
The nation is not only confronted with the most violent drop in prices that
it has ever experienced, but agricultural prices have dropped so much more than
other prices that we have a severe agricultural panic on top of a severe general
depression.
I wish to make this statement; I think you asked me something about con-
ditions in the West. That panic could be elaborated upon, the morale of the
people in the West.
By Dr. McKay:
Q. Are you speaking of agricultural products over the whole of the world?
--A. :No, iust in Canada. The morale of the people in the West is very low.
[Mr. H. C. Grant.|
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 401
APPENDIX No. 3
I find that, or I found it as I came East the last few days; they look upon me
as a sort of a Bolshevik, just because I come from the West. They say to me:
"The farmers in the West are knocking the Government." This is my explana-
tion; take Coueism, or Peruna, or anything like that, if a person is sick he
takes these things because he thinks they are good for him. A lot of these things
in the West have not beeen sound, such as the Hudson Bay Railway. the Wheat
Board, and all that sort of thing, and the psychological reason is that the
people are panicky and their morale is low.
By the Chairman:
Q. You say there is a panic?--A. You take the Hudson Bay Railway,
the Wheat Board and so on; when you have an investigation of the Wheat Board
or the Grain Exchange, you call men to give evidence such as Dr. Magill and
others; they are not Grain Exchange men, they are statisticians, they give you a
collection of facts and data, while the farmers have not got any statisticians.
Of course we lmve men here who come and talk psychologically, and nmy advance
a lot of theories you do not agree with from these fioaares these other organizations
have, and there are certain things in connection with the Wheat Board and
things like that that if the farmers had intelligent men to analyse them, the
statements made here last year would appear almost entirely different; in fact
you will realize that in a week or so, when it comes up in the Manitoba Legis-
lature.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That is, the statisticians are saturated with the Grand Exchange environ-
ment?---A. Yes.
Q. They know absolutely nothing of the real conditions of the men on the
land?--A. They do not know that. and really do not know very. much about the
grain trade.
By the Cairman:
Q. Mr. Grant, your figures are for June, 1921?A. Yes.
Q. Is there any substantial, change between June, 1921, and March, 1923?
---A. I am sorry I have not those figures up to date.
Q. Can you give it to us roughly; are the fioaares about the same as
they were in June, 1921?--A. Pardon me; there was an increase in some of the
agricultural products last )'ear, so that they will show a little better, but not
to any very considerable extent, because you know labour has been going up,
labour has risen in the last year. and that reacts on the wholesale prices.
Q. The Eastern farmer is largely his own labour factor or force?---A. I
meant the influence of labour on nachinery. That has its relative increase
on what the farmers buy.
Q. So that although prices for agricultural products may have risen slightly
since June, 1921, that rise has been largely offset by advances in other com-
modities the farmer has to buy?--A. Yes, and in the United States it has been
aggravated I understand, that is, the increase in labour and other commodities.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Wouldn't the increase in labour make it almost impossible for the
prices of these products to come down?--A. Yes, it would make that almost
impossible.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. There has been an increase in the price of machinery; are you aware of
that?--A. Yes.
[Mr. It. C. Grant.]
3--26
402 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923,
Q. I have some figures here; take a tractor, there has been an increase of
$125; separators from $75 to $150, gang ploughs $7, seeders $12, four-horse
cultivator $8, disc harrows $6. These figures are taken from the prices quoted
in the West by our implement agents.
hit. HAMMELL: What are the Ford tractors?
Mr. SALES: These are all I have. This list was sent to me from the
West by a friend of mine, who says that these are the increases in prices.
Dr. McKA]: What would be the percentage of increase?
Mr. S.LES: I could not tell you that.
The CHAmMA,: Shall we go on?
WTSS: I have about a page and a half, and I will then be through.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. You made a statement a while ago about which I think a little more
information would be advisable, in view of the fact that we have had some
other evidence by these men to whom you referred, whom you said did not
know much about the grain tradc?--A. I made it from this standpoint, that
they are arguing from figures. I was talking about economic problems in con-
nection with the grain trade as far as our present system of marketing is
concerned. When you mention the Grain Exchange, that is not a marketing
organization, it is just a selling agency; the crop of Western Canada is not
marketed, and they cannot talk along lines like that; they just have statistics.
They take September, October, November or some other month and show that
it does not pay to sell stored grain from that point. You will find in a week
or so that it does pay. There was no one here at the time to show the fallacy
of these arguments.
Mr. SALES: I did my best, I know that.
By the Chairman:
Q. As the whole question of the grain trade has been referred to a 1Royal
Commission, we will now proceed with other features of this question.?---A. At
first thought the city consumer of farm things is likely to delight in the low
prices of farm products and high prices for city products. The farm consumer
of city products is equally likely to delight in low prices of city goods and
high prices of farm products, but neither can long prosper at the expense
of the other. (Members: Hear, hear.) Even allowing for the drop in wholesale
prices there is a 13 per cent spread between wholesale and farm prices. If
the farmers canot buy, cities cannot sell, and unemployment is the result.
Neither industry nor agriculture can progress in a normal way until the relative
prices become adjusted at some comparatively stable price level. This would
occur if all prices and wages went to a pre-war level, which farm products
have nearly reached. The adjustment which seems likely to occur and the
one that would appear to cause the least injustice is to have he very low prices
rise and some of the very high prices drop, so that adjustment is made at
a price level considerably above the pre-war price.
The general depression is practically world-wide. Credit expansion and
unusual demands caused the great rise in prices. Very large production, the
break-down of the buying buyer of European countries, and the fact that the
credit limits of our banking system were reached, all helped in causing the
industrial depression. There would doubtless have been depression in any
event, but the serious break-down in the farmers' purchasing power has hal
much to do with the severity of the situation.
[hlr. H. C. Grant.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 405
APPENDIX No. 3
Mr. SALES: I was talking to Mr. Leader at noon, and I inquired as to Mr.
Grant's reliability; and Mr. Leader said he was at the meeting, and he
thoroughly agreed that hIr. Grant was trying to give a correct version of con-
ditions at that meeting.
Mr. HAMMnLL: I was not questioning his reliability. I though possibly
there might be some mistake as between $1.01 and $1.41.
The CIAIaMA: There is not one of us infallible, nay not even the youngest
amongst us.
The WITESS: That answers that question I think. I did not include
the summer fallow charge because I did not want to take their statement for
it then. A number of them were in the hotel in the meeting, and they called
me over and said: "We are not satisfied with this; you have not included
summer fallow".
Bg Mr. Salcs:
Q. You made the statement that the productions of the farms have been
practically doubled, in the paper you are going to present?--A. Yes.
Q. How much wheat do you think one man alone can produce, have you
any idea?---A. I have never thought an answer to that question. You mean
how much land can he handle?
Q. Absolutely.--A. I do not know but as long as we figure out on that
basis in the West, that is bushels per man and not bushels per acre--that is
what we are doing in the West now, and that is what we have insisted on in
the past.
Q. What would you say was the average consumption of wheat per head
of the population?--A. You mean in Canada?
Q. Yes?---A. I am not sure; I think it is something like nine bushels.
Mr. HAMILL: The total consumption is about 70.000.000 bushels for the
whole population, that would be about 10 bushels per head.
The WIw.ss: I thought it was nine something bushels.
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q. Do you think one man can handle 100 acres?--A. Yes.
Q. Do you think he can handle 150 acres?--A. I would not say he could
handle that.
Q. This is the point I am trying to get at. At 10 bushels per head, one
man can easily produce enough to keep two hundred people, and then finds it
difficult to exchange that to buy the necessaries of life and to pay his taxes
and all the rest of it. That is the position I am trying to get at, and there is
something wrong there. Do you agree with that?--A. I have not thought of
that question.
Q. There is another theory which is quite prevalent down east. They
have a lot of funny ideas in the East about us going to California, that we
are simply mining our land by growing long crop grain; and the idea prevails
that there are farms in the West that have not got a cow or a chicken, and
buy tinned milk and buy their eggs and butter. Would you say that that is
a general condition? A. No, it is not.
Q. Have you ever been on a farm of that kind?A. :No, I never have;
I never came in contact with any except up in the Peace River.
Q. The fact is that mixed farming is carried on to a greater extent than
the people down east imagine?--A. Yes. That is, I think our ideas of mixed
farming, in the West, differ somewhat from theirs. When you speak of mixed
farming, from a straight farm manager's standpoint, I would not say mixed
[hlr. M. C. Grant.]
408 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
The CHAIRMAN: Will the stenographer please make a note that the witness
is making signs of assent, but that does not appear on the record.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I am going to ask him whether he agrees with what I sa.y?--A. Yes,
I do.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Might I ask you about the marketing of these things; do you think
we have the marketing down to a scientific basis at the present time?--A. I think
our marketing is the most unscientific part of our farming.
Q. What is your opinion as to the assistance that the Marketing Depart-
ment here is giving to the western farmers; that is under the existing conditions?
The CAmh: " Marketing Department "--what do you mean, connected
with the Department of Agriculture?
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Yes.--A. As far as the Dominion government is concerned, you really have
not got a Department of Markets; you have a Department of Market Informa-
tion, and a great deal of that is given like stock quotations, it is not presented in
a popular way for the farmer, I do not think. That is my own opinion of it.
Q. At the present time, do we not have quotations, say, of the Winnipeg
Live Stock Market, the actual sales that took place, and then in the same
column, we have about four or five inches of a report from the Department?
What is the value of it?--A. I-Iere is the way the reports come; for instance,
the dominion live stock representative at the Winnipeg Market reports that the
sales there to-day were so-and-so, and so-and-so. There is no report comes out.
no disinterested report comes to the farmer as to wheat being marketed at
such a rate, or live stock, and as to the world's supply, for instance. It does
not touch marketing in the United States, nor consumption, not does it give
him any information as to whether it is best for him to ship his cattle under
the market, at the present time. For instance, here is t, he United States gov-
ernment; they have a sort of little magazine which they publish, called " Markets
and Weather Reports ", which is issued every week, I think, and it interprets
market trends in a disinterested way for the farmer; we have no interpretation
of market trends, and world conditions, as far as that is concerned, in Canada.
By the Chairman:
Q. Take market trends on wheat. Does it not happen that operators of
equal skill will often interpret the future trend of the market in diametrically
opposite ways? A. Yes, I think that is true, but when I say " interpret ", I do
not mean that the Dominion government or any government should say it is
best for you to sell your stuff now, but if they would show to the farmer or
whoever it is out West or anywhere the state of supply in other countries, and in
our own country, the flow to market, and things like that, he would b able
to use his own iudgment. For instance, the Dominion government does supply
that information in connection with the produce trade, eggs and butter and the
like, but that goes to the produce merchants. It is a good thing for them, they
get the information, but of course the farmer does not get that, and of course
he is not a big shipper in poultry and produce anyway, but he is a big shipper
in wheat.
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
40 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
The V.ss: I would not call that man an expert. I would not say
that this advice should be given by one man. I think I have an idea whom
you are speaking about. There is lust the point I am going to get at. We go
on this man's say-so. Let us get down to the actual position of this thing
and do not let their imaginations carry them away.
By Mr. MiIne:
Q. The point I was trying to get at was, is there any way of diverting
in another direction before the producer suffers all these losses?--A. You must
not divert that man lust on sentiment. You must divert him on actual in-
formation.
Bg the Chairman:
Q. It seens to me, and you will correct me if I am wrong, that if the
Government is going to attempt to direct into what channel the producers of
natural products should direct thei_r energies, the Government has to presage or
prophesy what conditions are going to be four or five or six months in advance,
in some caes a year in advance or three years in advance?--A. That is pro-
bably true, and tere is the fnny part if it, as I see it in connection with our
Government establishment. We are primarily an aiculture country. We
have trade commissioners going out to Bermuda, Vladivostok and other coun-
tries trying to drum up hardware sales and other sales. Why have we not
got agricultural representatives in these countries? We have not got those
men.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. You will admit that the manufacturer of certain lines may have a
regulating influence on their output?--A. Yes.
Q. Manufacturers of certain lines of goods can regulate their output to
a certain extent?--A. They can regulate that. They have regulative powers
that are not in the hands of farmers, never were and never will be.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is it not true you are a co-operator with Providence?--A. Yes.
Q. And a very large crop might bring down the price?--A. That is truc
enough.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. There is something else besides that? A. May I say in that connection
with Dr. McKay's statements we are now the largest wheat exporting country
in the world and if we are going to develop Western Canada as we hope to do
and will do we are going to increase our position in the world markets. Now
we certainly have to anticipate something in the nature of establishing expor
conditions in the line of marketing this wheat. We should try to do something
at least to anticipate another calamity of a bumper crop.
By the Chairman:
Q. May I make this suggestion. I gather that Mr. Grant has some ideas
about marketing, and as this discussion was casual, I should perhaps ask him to
give us his ideas about marketing. We can do all this without the witnesses
being here, but if we bring witnesses from a considerable distance we should try
and exhaust their supply of information before taking up the discussion our-
selves. I am in the hands of the Committee, but it strikes me that way.
[hlr. H. C. Grant.]
412 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V. A. 1923
eggs from the country. They are fresh from the country to the exten that
they are fresh from the country; they have just arrived.
Q. They were not laid in a back-yard of a city? A. They are any eggs fit
for human consumption. For instance, you read our export sheet, that is, we
export about $4,000,000 worth of eggs to the United States, and we import about
$2,000.000 worth of eggs. Tile reason for that is this: we send them the best
eggs and we bring back their cheap eggs to take the place of the good eggs we
send them. For instance, probabl.v three months ago we were buying United
States eggs, cold storage eggs. You will understand from this statement in
Alberta that it is not strictly a co-operative organization because there is no shar-
ing of capital in it. We try to go out and organize on that basis, by getting the
farmers to give us collateral notes but there are certain principles in connection
with co-operation which defied us. That is, the first principle of co-operation,
that you must deal in one product. It must be raisins, oranges, eggs, or wheat
or solnething else. You must handle only one product. In Alberta poultry is
growing, but at the present t.imc it is iust a side issue and we could not get
the farmers to put up a collateral note like they do in Prince Edward Island to
organize a co-o)erative association. But here is another principle in con-
nection with co-operation, is that it should at least attempt to raise the quality
of the product so handled and give to the consumer a better product. We
realized when we were balked in connection with organizing farmers in that
way, still that it was in the interest of Canada to have the producer, especially
in Alberta, paid on a quality basis, than to give him a premium for the best
eggs, so we carried on this organization in the face of quite a lot of opposition
from the trade, saying the Government. had no right to interfere with their
legitimate business, using the taxes in setting up a business in opposition to
theirs. We came in on the field in Alberta. They hope eventually now in
Alberta to turn over to the farmers after they have established and proven to
them that it pays to produce a good quality product and a sufficient quantity
of that product. When they have established this in the minds of the people,
who are shipping to this association and the industry is growing, the Govern-
ment will step out and say, "Here, you take this thing over yourselves." There
is one principle in connection with co-operative marketing. I think it should
be laid down as an axiom that it is not a good thing for the Government to do
things for the people that they can do for themselves. You can understand
that our basis of working there, to a great extent, was education, that is, we
were trying to develop the industry ,through dex-eloping a better product and
by disseminating this product in Vancouver, and the like, by showing that
Alberta had good eggs, we would foster the industry. I think it has vindicated
itself. The Government in Alberta, I think, is handling a great percentage of
the eggs now, the best eggs any way, so the trade says; the Government is getting
the best out of it.
Q. May I ask you a general question at this point: what is your opinion
as to co-operation as a method of bettering market conditions in Canada for
the natural producer?--A. Co-operation is the only solution, but it must be
remembered that co-operation is an ideal, not a force.
Q. That is epigramatic, but not so clear as it might be.--A. I intend to
develop it. Yhen things are the darkest the ideals of the people ahvays shiae
brightest, that is, when you are up against conditions--the people out West are
seeking for a remedy, and if they think that by getting people to co-operate, just
using co-operation to force the dealer to pay higher prices, or the consumer, higher
prices, they will go into it. Then here is the thing, unless they accep that as
an ideal, they must co-operate to market their product, this is what happens.
So we have had organization-
[Mr. H. C. Grant.l
414 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By te Chairmon:
Q. We see in the windows of stores new laid eggs at $1 per dozen, day old
eggs at 95 cents per dozen, then in another store new laid eggs at 65 cents. Do
those signs mean nothing at all?--A. Nothing at all.
5Ir. S.LES: And strictly fresh at 60 cents.
WtTESS: It means nothing except the dealer's opinion of the egg, and he
might as well brand a sack of wheat without looking at the inside of it.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. It means just about as nuch as Pure Wool, All Wool, Plain Wool, or
anything else?--A. Yes. I might say that I conducted a considerable investi-
gation along that line when I was in Calgary, because I would read an adver-
tisement of fresh laid eggs at so much, probably 50 cents, and I would read an
advertisement down town that such and such a store was selling fresh laid eggs
at 45 cents, and when I would go down and look them over they would be the
eggs we were selling at 32 cents.
By Dr. McKag:
Q. The virtue of co-operation could be defined first from the farmer's view-
point, the producer's viewpoint, and then from the consumer's vicwpoint?--A.
I did not get that quc.-_tion.
Q. How would you dcfiue the virtue of co-operation; you say the con-
sumer will not pay any more; how then will the farmer get any morc? That is
what I am getting at.--A. In the first place, hc would be paid on a quality
basis, that is, if he was producing good quality he would be getting a premium
for it, and for poor quality stuff he would be penalized. That is the first test; the
second is that he would eliminate certain unnecessary marketing operations.
Q. For instance, tile middleman?---A. Yes. I do not say that we are going
to wipe out all middlemen. Those that have any useful function, leave them
there, while the others would be eliminated. Tile next is that the consumer
would be getting value for what he paid out.
By Dr. McKay:
Q. The man who produced the poor eggs would be getting less?--A. Yes,
only it works this way, he might probably be getting less.
Q. If eggs were sold as eggs by every vendor, the man who produced the
good eggs under this system would get more than the man who produced the
poor eggs?--A. Yes. i'he trouble under the present system is that the trade
gets the benefit of the good eggs, the consumer consumes the poor eggs, and the
farmer gets his price based upon the price as they were brought in.
By the Chairman:
Q. Of course all eggs are fresh when first laid?--A. Yes. certainly.
Q. But they deteriorate as a result of unskilful handling as btween the
producer and the consumer?--A. Yes.
By Dr. McKav:
Q. How is the quality of eggs determined, I mean before they are laid?--
A. Food enters into it to a great extent; for instance, in June and July we get
weak, watery eggs, because the hens are out eating grasshoppers ad green
stuff, and that has an effect upon the quality of the eggs. That is why most of
the storing is done in March and April and May, because that is the natural
incubating period for any bird; hens will lay well then, and the eggs will be at
their best.
[hr. H. C. Grant.]
416 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
marketing organization, for instance, in Alberta or Manitoba, and the outside
local would subscribe certain capital stock to that provincial organization. They
would have their different departments for marketing live stock and grain. Then
we would have a national marketing association, which would be an export
marketing association, for the three Western Provinces. That is practically
the basis for Mr. Dunning's remarks.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Would that be pooling the results, pooling the prices?--A. You would
get over this difficulty, Mr. Sales, as giving rise to a lot of discussion in connec-
tion with marketing in Western Canada, that is, one district has a certain advan-
tage here and another a certain advantage there. You would be making a
distribution first to the provincial, and then they would distribute it again to the
locals, and that distribution to the locals would be on a basis that when that
shipment was received--
The CHAIRMAN: That is to say, when a certain local sent in a shipment to
the Provincial Central Agency, that shipment would be ear-marked from that
local?---A. From that local.
Q. And in the same way, that ear-marking would continue until it was
finally disposed of? Is that your idea?--A. Yes. Our present system of co-
operative live stock marketing in Western Canada is really nothing of the kind,
it is co-operative live stock shipping. The co-operatives get together and say;
"We will ship a car" and they ship it to Winnipeg, and to whom do they ship it?
to some business commission men. There is no organization there which will take
their live stock and also keep tab on what else is going from Alberta and Sas-
katchewan, and ship it to Great Britain or wherever it is going. They ship it
not knowing who is shipping from other parts. They are simply facilitating
shipping.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Take Winnipeg, with which you are familiar, would you advocate an
abattoir, a cold storage in connection with it, the slaughtering of the cattle for
the farmers, if the prices did not suit him, the placing of the meat in the storage.
grading, on which you could have a bill of lading or rather a warehouse receipt
so that he could finance himself on it; the supplying of this meat, the giving of
a continuous supply to the butcher so as to render the butcher absolutelv inde-
pendent of the packing houses and the pooling of the price to the farmr?--A.
That is an ideal statement of what we would like to have, yes.
Q. What help, in your opinion, if any, should this Government give in
establishing things of that kind? You recognize the difficulty of getting farmers
together to enter into a thing of that kind. What help do you think should be
given by this Dominion?--A. Not very much.
Q. Supervision as to grading?---A. Yes, that is probably where the Govern-
ment--
Q. Govermnent loans?
The CIRM.-: Well now, let us have the opinion of this young man. Ve
want him to tell us what his idea is.
The WTESS: I think the Government should have supervision and inspec-
tion, and probably too the provision of credit, of course on suitable terms and
also on suitable security.
By the Chaff'man:
Q. I am interested in that, and I would like to know how you as a repre-
sentative of the newer generation from the west--how far do" you think the
Government should go in its operation?
Mr. McK.tv: Rural credits.
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
418 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Have you studied that system?--A. Yes.
Q. Tell us briefly what it is, and what you think about it?---A. Of course
the bank system in the United States is entirely different from the Canadian
system. Teir credit is not as flexible. They have a local bank in the district,
it may be Farmer Jones' bank.
Q. Is it right to say that since the introduction of the FederaI Reserve
System, it is not as flexible as ours? That was the idea of the Federal Reserve
System, to make it more flexible. In a district, say in North Dakota, the
farmers get together to make a co-operative shipment, and if they want an
advance on it, and the small local bank cannot finance it, if the Federal Bank
can take up their note, they can. That is the system in brief in the United
States.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. Is it not a fact that the banks the farmers instituted themselves in the
Western States failed in a great many instances? Farmers' Banks established
bv the farmers themselves, is it not a fact that they mostly all failed? A. I
tlink--of course that is true in some States of the Union, it is not true of course
under the system they have in Germany, but the reason for that in the United
States is this, that a few farmers get together to establish a bank, and then they
all want money, you see. The German system is the ideal one, as far as the
Land Banks are concerned.
By the Chairman:
Q. You have not told us a great deal about the Land Banks in the United
States, have you?
Mr. McKAY: I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we have some man come
here from Washington who understands this.
The ChraMA: That is one of the matters--.
Mr. McKY: I do not think there is any man in Canada who could give us
that.
The Cihm: I have a letter from a man about that, which I was going
to bring up before the Committe. It is from a man who used to be in the Press
Gallery here who has been down in the United States studying this.
Gentlemen, there are some matters I wish to discuss with the Committee
before Easter. I would like to know whether we have any more questions to
ask Mr. Grant, or not.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Do cold storage plants affect the market, in any way? Do they use
the cold storage plants to deflate the markets, when it so suits them?--A. I
could not say about that.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I-Iave you given any study, Mr. Grant to the prices this year by the
producer and the prices paid by the consumer?--A. I have some data on that
in Winnipeg. That is, I have some charts which I use in my classes to show
what percentage, for instance, goes into certain costs; for instance, in bread and
butter, and things like that.
Q. That is, how much the grower receives?--A. Yes, how much the middle-
man receives, how much the baker receives, and how much the transportation
company receives.
[Mr. H. C. Grant.]
subjects.
V[r.
The
V[r.
time.
Ir.
a report
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 421
APPENDIX No. 3
The CHAIaAN: It seems to me, gentlemen, that after Easter we should
roughly apportion our time between the four main headings which we have
decided to devote our attention to, namely, production, the cost of the commodity
to the agriculturalist in comparison to what he got as a producer, rural credits,
and marketing, and my suggestions would be that roughly we should give a
week to each of the four subjects, because soon the Budget will be coming on,
and we want to make our report, and we do not want to be engaged in this
Committee right to the end of the session. Would you gentlemen consider it
wise to endeavour, as accurately as you can, to devote a week to these four
That will bring our committee work to a close about the 10th of May.
S.LES: That is four days to each subject?
CHAIRMAN : res.
SALES: I do not know whether we can get anything, I am sure, in that
MuNRo: If you do not confine it to a certain time we will not bring
at all.
The CHAiRmAn: We have a subject, gentlemen, which we can, with profit
investigate for a whole year, and I merely suggest one week to each as a rough
and ready way of putting it. Then, it is decided that we shall, as soon as
possible, devote the week beginning the 9th of April to the subject of production,
and the week beginning the 16th of April to the subject of the difference of
cost between what the farmer has got to sell and what the farmer has got to
pay; the week beginning the 23rd of April to rural credits; the week beginning
the 30th of April to the subject of marketing. I may say, gentlemen, that the
witnesses that we will call will certainly be examined on more than one subject,
and it will interlace more or less; we cannot help that. I think before I go
further I should ask your views as to whom we should summon for the 10th.
I think that is the first thing. I am going to make a suggestion that you allow
me to write to one of the Quebec experts, as I think it would be a wholesome
thing for the country to let them know that the Province of Quebec and the
French language was receiving some consideration in this Committee, and with
your permission I propose to write to a professor in a college near here and ask
him to be here on the 10th. I have already written to two other gentlemen
asking them to indicate the day they will come.
Mr. S.rs: I sent a wire to Dean Rutherford, - but have not received an
answer yet.
The CHAaM.W: I think we might ask Mr. Cummings to be here from
Nova Scotia on the same day.
Mr. HAMMELL: Was Mr. Leitch not to come back again?
The CH.mMAN: Yes, sir. Shall we ask him for the same day, or the
next day?
Mr. I-I..MMELL: Better make it the next day.
Mr. S_LES: What about a man from Alberta on production, Mr. Gardiner?
Mr. GARDINER: Anybody at all who is a capable witness with regard to
production.
The CHAmM.N: We will put Professor LeAch down for Wednesday on
general production. Have we any more apple men? I have a letter from the
secretary-treasurer of the Canalian Agricultural Council, suggesting several
names, a Mr. Baxter and a Mr. Bishop among others; if we are having Mr.
Cummings of Nova Scotia I do not think we need to bring up Mr. Bishop.
426 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
in Western agriculture. I was delegated to attend the conference of the repre-
sentatives of the creditor and debtor classes in Saskatchewan, called by tile
Provincial Government in September last, and after hearing in some detail the
indebtedness of the Saskatchewan farmers discussed, I came away from that
meeting with a feeling of suffocation. I find that feeling prevails in many
districts, and yet men and women, even under those most discouraging con-
ditions, are willing to do anything in their power to help in any form of re-
adjustment that might be suggested. Just before Christmas a woman wrote
me, on behalf of the women of her district, asking me if I could possibly help
them help themselves. She asked me if I could devise some means whereby
these women could apply for wool, and other material and make up into various
articles which could be sold for them, thereby earning a little cash to buy
clothing and other necessaries. On further inquiry, I found that many of these
people had their crops seized, before they were aware of the existence of the
Provincial Debt Adjustment Bureau, and that these women had raised their
fair share of by-products, but were -illing and anxious to put still further
effort, during the winter, into some means of making a little money to help
over the hard times.
I believe we Westerners, although badly discouraged, have faith in the
West. We believe we could win in the fight against our natural enemies, such
as drought, rust, grasshoppers, sawfly, cutworm, hail and other things too
numerous to mention, if an honest attempt were made by all other interests to
help us overcome our artificial obstacles. The costs of production are too high,
and also the costs of living. The prices of what we sell have fallen in
greater proportion to the prices we have to pay.
To quote one instance: take a boy of 12 years of age, and fit him with
bare necessities for a winter on the prairies. I am giving comparative prices
from Eaton's cataloues, fall and winter, 1912-13 and 1922-23 for as nearly as
possible the same kind of articles.
pr. boots ..........................
prs. stockings ....................
Pr. rubbers ......................
suits underwear ................
sweater ......................
cap ...............
overcoat ..........................
muffler ............................................
overalls ............................................
pr. mitts ........................................
shirts ......................................
suit ......................................
1912-!3 1922-23
................ $1 75 $3 25
............ 60 1 38
............ 65 85
............ 200 300
...... 50 1 25
.......... 45 80
.......... 5 25 13 00
100 135
75 1 )
50 89
1 I0 3 I0
6 50 12 50
Totals ................... j .. $21 05 $42 87
.'_nd of course if you compare those articles as regards durability, the goods
sold in 1912 were far more durable.'
The reason I picked that particular item is because under whatever con-
ditions they live, the farm man and woman must make an effort to keep the
growing boys at school. The younger children may be kept at home and
wrapped up and go without a certain amount of clothing, but this is something
that is going on all the time, and those items affect us very materially.
Q. Are those the cheapest kind of goods?--A. Yes, I chose from the point
of view of the farmer who had very little to spend and I was particularly careful
to take the same class of goods. If they were Scotch knit in 1912, I chose
Scotch knit in 1923; tweed in 1912 and tweed in 1923. This is but one of many
statements that could be made showing marked degrees of comparison in prices
in 1912 and 1922, and which are matters of grave concern to our farm women.
[Mrs. John McNaughton.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 427
APPENDIX No. 3
The following items also speak for themselves. This is an average of all
Canadian cities of 10,000 or more.
Q. Where are these figures taken from?--A. The Bureau of Statistics, but
I might also point out that in reading the index figure, Mr. Ward, our Secre-
tary, got these for me, and the Bureau have kindly made the index figure 100 for
1913 instead of the usual Labour Gazette figure; therefore it is easier to recognize
at first sight.
Jan. 1913 Index Jan. 1923
Tea, black medium per lb ........................... 36 $166 ? 60
Therefore a dollar's worth of tea is now .$1.667.
Jan. 1913 ;Index Jan. 1923
Sugar, granulated .... 06 -$148 09.
Flour, per lb ...... 03 $136 6 04
Boots, women's ....................... 5 00 180 9 00
Boots, men's fine .................................. 5 00 190 9 50
Boots, working .................................. 3 50 126 6 4 50
These are just a few items, because, if I may explain, I was appointed to
this Committee after leaving home; I could have supplied considerable informa-
tion, which I have at home, and presented the evidence more comprehensively.
Of course, all other classes are paying these prices, the only difference being that
most of the other classes have provided vays and means of passing on their
increased costs, which the farmers are at present unable to do.
In concluding this statement, I wish to point out one of the most unfortu-
nate effects of the present adverse economic conditions, and that is that too many
boys and girls are leaving the farms. Our agricultural societies spend a great
deal of money and do a great deal to stimulate interest on the part of boys
and girls in rural life. A boy may save his money and buy a pig; he may be-
come thoroughly interested in all that his club teaches him along the lines of
better production, but once he comes to the place where he realizes that pro-
duction does not pay, his enthusiasm receives a severe check, and the attractions
of town or even village life grow greater, with the result that he is too often
ultimately lost to rural life.
Since I am here in a representative capacity, .I am leaving it to the other
members of our Committee to make the constructive suggestions as to remedial
measures, which our Council believes necessary, to solve the serious agricultural
problem now facing us.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Mrs. hIcNaughton, how many years did this survey cover?--A. It is
an annual event now. They made one in 1921; that was their first one, but
numbers responding were not so great. They made this one last year, but I
believe they intend to continue, because they feel that it is very well worth
while.
By the Chairman:
Q. The Hon. Mr. Sinclair asks me whether I understood that the replies
which form the basis of this survey were all taken in arriving at this conclusion,
or whether any of the replies were sorted out to be taken as the basis of the
survey? A. I understood from the Provincial Secretary that the replies had
been tabulated. Of course some of the questions might not have been answered
on every form, but all the replies sent in were tabulated.
Q. All the replies formed the basis of the survey.--A. Yes.
Q. They were not hand picked?--A. :No, so I understood. I might add,
if it is not taking up time, that some of our delegates from Saskatchewan, at
[Mrs. Jolm IcNaughto.|
428 PECIAL COMMITTE, E
13-14 GEORGE V. A. 1923
the Manitoba Convention, were so interested in this that they asked Miss Finch
to present that survey to the Saskatchewan Convention, so that it has been
under thorough discussion.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many of these questionnaires were sent out,
A. :No, I am sorry.
have you any idea?--
By the Chairman:
Q. I suppose the questionnaires would be replied to as a general thing by
pcuple rather above the average of intclligence and education?--A. I would
imagine the questions would be replied to by the more active workers in the
Association. with the dcsire to help.
Q. And naturally they would be the people who would be the better
educated?
Mr. Robinson: They would bc the people who were dissatisfied, too.
The CI.mM.: Perhaps morc dissatisfied, but perhaps in better circum-
stances than those who were not dissatisfied.
Mr. SES: What does hIr. Robinson mean b.v people more dissatisfied?
The CI-IAIRMA/: He meant the people more discontented perhaps.
Mr. SALES: :No, I think he probably means that to keep the farmers on the
land we must not educate them.
Mr. Ronso: :No, not at all, Mr. Chairman. I think I can make my
meaning plain enough before I get through.
Q. Do these women you speak of as working on the farm and doing a
certain portion of the work, object to doing any work in connection with the
farm?--A. :No, I don't think they do; but they do object to not seeing any return
for it.
Q. Do you think it is a parallel case, a woman working on a farm, and
a woman going vith her husband to help lay bricks?--A. Well if it was piece-
work and the man could only make his present weekly pay by taking his wife
and family along to help him, I would say that is a fair comparison. Th,t is
my personal opinion.
Q. These women who raise poultry and so on, does that money go to their
husbands, or to the family, or do they have that?--A. I think generally speak-
ing, it goes into the household revenue. It goes to swell the household
revenue.
Q. There seems to be somehow or another an antagonism as if a woman
were--if I make myself plain--as if her part of the income should be altogether
separate and apart from her husband's, earmarked so to speak.--A. :No, I wouldn't
say that, but the farm women do feel that the immense effort they are putting
into this productive labour should show in some form; they should either have
better homes or better education for their children; they should see some return
in some tangible way. That is the feeling. I don't think there is any question
of division of opinion or division of the household. I don't wish to stress any
sex emphasis..
Q. There is one thing I would like to clear up about this question of
education; you speak about the boys and girls getting instructions in clubs?
--A. Yes, sir, in our agricultural extension societies, and in the universities under
different forms; we have extension work. These agencies do good work among
the boys and girls.
[Mrs. John hIcNaughion.]
430 ,.PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Bg Mr. Robinson:
Q. That is where the weakness of the whole thing comes in?--A. I would
say that these school Fairs are a very common feature on our prairies.
Q. But in the advancement of the child from one grade to another, that
is not connted; what he can make out of his books is counted, of course. The
weakness of the whole thing is right there?--A. Perhaps.
Bg Mr. McKay:
Q. What would you suggest for the relief of farmers' wives from so much
work; you said they did too large a share of the whole work?--A. Yes.
Q. Wha would you do about that?--A. Speaking of Saskatchewan, we
couhl absorb hundreds of these unattached women, if we had the means to pay
th era.
Q. You would have a constant supply?--A. Oh no. Pardon me, I was
thinking along the line of dissatisfaction with farm life. Yes, we would have to
reckon with the bachelors. It wou!d be a real service, if we could only brin
them along.
By tlte Chairman:
Q. You are not going to suggest that this Committee is going to take up
matrimonial matters?--A. Not at all.
Mr. ROBSo_: It might do worse.
Mr. SAs: My experience has been with these attractive young ladies who
are coming out there from time to time, we almost have to keep a shotgun ready
after about the first week.
The C}An_: If Mr. Sales would only carry that a little bit farther, you
would have no dearth of nice young people coming out from the Old Country.
WEss: There is one point I would like to make in this connection, that
is, the Saskatchewan Government has an assisted passage scheme for the ira-
migration of unattached women, with which I was identified, and it is working
out satisfactorily. The contention was that they would not stay on the farm,
but the reports have shown that they will stay on the farm, as far as the farmers
can keep them, but during the past. two ,years many farmers could not fulfil
their contracts, and the girls had to be re-placed in the cities.
Q. There is no difficulty infinding them places in the eity?A. Some have
difficulty in finding places. The point is that we would keep them on the farm,
if we had the means.
Q. Is this survey to which you allude in your evidence, was any distinction
shown as to what replies came f"om f,rms that had been settled five or ten years
or more?--A. I could not answer that.
Q. It would have been very interesting, if that had been done?--A. I believe
it is the intention of the Association to keep that work up, and I will note that
suggestion.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. In what year wa that survey made?--A. In 1922. and it was presented
to their Association in January, 1923.
By Mr. Sales:
0. You mentioned a debt adjustment bureau in Saskatchewan; will ou
describe that to the Commission?--A. It has been established for some time. but
until last fall it was not ver.'v well known. I think it was an effort to help the
oppressed farmers, and last fall it was not desired t.o be very publicly known,
[rs. 5ohn McNaughton.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION,S 433
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Is :ours a representative municipality?--A. I believe it is. I believe it
is about an average municipality. We have good land, medium land, and poor
land.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. What is your population? A. We have 650 farmers in this munici-
pality.
Q. I mean the race?--A. They are very mixed; we have many from
Ontario, some from the United States, many from Austria, some Roumanians,
some Hungarians, and a few Jews.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. What percentage were settled there within the last ten years? A. :Not
two per cent. Most of the land was taken up between 1905 and 1906. Those
were the years in which most of the land was taken up. From then on to 1910
land was taken up, there was a small proportion of land held by land companies,
and that has been sold by lots within the last few years, but the largest percent-
age was in 1905 and 1906.
By Mr. Hammell:
"Q. Have you any Jewish farmers there?--A. A few. There was quite a
Jewish settlement in the early days, but as soon as they got their patents they
left their farms and went store-keeping. I think our municipality is a little
better than some others, because we have not had so many dry years. It used
to be a good district. I am showing the condition as affected by the tax sales
during the last four years.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You have as good land there as any in the Province, have you not? A.
Some of our land is just as good as any in the Province. We are making a new
assessment this year, and our best land has been set at a maximum price on land
in Saskatchewan, that is, our best land.
By the Chairman:
Q. What is that assessment?--A. For assessment purposes $37.50 for land
close to town, and as we get away it is fifty cents an acre less for each mile
from town.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. On what basis do you assess land?--A. It is supposed to be the actual
selling value of the land. It is supposed to be the actual value. The actual
value of the land has dropped very considerably during the last two years. Some
of that land was actually soId a few years ago at $90 an acre, but it was never
paid for. Most of the land sold in our municipality at a large price has reverted
to the owner. In other cases the price has been reduced. Some land sold at $50
an acre has been reduced to 35 an acre. Some of the land which sold at a high
price, the sellers know that it will never be paid for, and they are reducing the
price.
Q. Is that not true all over Canada?--A. Yes, Mr. Chairman, it is. The
question was asked me. I am not making a comparison. These are tax sales.
In 1919 the numbers of parcels of land, that is, quarter sections--we have 1,440
quarter sections in our municipality, and each parcel is separately listed in the
tax sales. We have about ten and a half townships.
Q. It is rather misleading to us who are from Ontario.
[Mr. George F. Edwards.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 435
APPENDIX No. 3
By the Chairman:
Q. The defaulting tax-payer has the right to redeem his property from
the person who bought his taxes?---A. The title is in his name until the end of
two years, when it becomes vested in the man who paid the taxes.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. The man who pays the taxes takes the place of the municipality?--A.
The municipality has to pay a large percentage of these taxes. There has not
been enough tax purchasers in recent years to buy all the land that has been
up for sale. We still have some on our books, although we have disposed of
some. We got a better price, or we had a better chance of selling than some
other municipalities had. That is why ] say ours is better than the average
municipality.
By the Chairman:
Q. It is important that we should know the exact technicalities of how
men dispose of their taxes?---A. I do not know that it is.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. 3"hese lands upon which taxes were unpaid, were they occupied or
unoccupied?---A, lklost of them were occpicd; ] would not say all; a small
percentage were not occupied. The figures are, for 1919, 274 parcels.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Would the owners of those unoccupied lands live in the municipality?
---A. Sometimes a mortgage company is the owner, and sometimes there is an
absentee owner. n 1919 the number of parcels put up for sale for taxes was 274,
and the number actually sold in 1919 was 53 parcels; in 1920 the number of
parcels put up for tax sale was 228; there was a decrease in the number of
parcels put up for sale that year on the tax sale list. n 1920 there were 228
parcels advertised for sale, or a decrease in the number put up. Nineteen were
actually sold, so that there was a drop that year, due to a fairly good crop;
that is, better than it was in 1919.
In 1921, there were 427 advertised, and 121 sold. Quite an increase in the
number of parcels advertised.
Then last year, 1922, there were 618 parcels on the tax sale list and 195
dispose of.
There are 1,440 quarter sections in this municipality and of this number
618 were on the tax sale list.
195 of those were actually sold.
] also got from our secretary, the m]mber of sheriff's seizures. There are three
villages in our municipality, namely Cupar, Southey and /VIarkinch.
The number in Cupar was 18. That is seizures of crops. Southey 19;
and in Markinch 36. These do not include seizures made by owners upon
tenants on their land. They are seizures made on owners of land. They do
not include seizures made by the owners for their share of the crop, from
tenants. I do not know what those figures are.
We have in our municipality about 600 farmers, taking that figure from the
assessment roll, and there were 73 seizures. I have not figured the percentage;
I think it is about 12 per cent of the crops that were seized.
Mr. It..lkIMELL: What is the average sized farm?--A. Just a shade more
than a half section is the average size. Some of this land is not farmed. That
[Mr. George F. Edwards.]
436 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
is to say, throughout Saskatchewan the average size is a trifle over the half
section.
I might say that these figures possibly do not give an accurate index of
conditions because of the fact that loan companies, who have lent money on
land, in many instances rather than have the land sold for taxes, have paid
the taxes, so that the statement does not reflect the conditions quite as bad as they
are, because the owners have not paid the taxes themselves.
The CAIRMAN: That is the mortgagee has paid the taxes on the land
t.o protect his mortgage?--A. Yes, in many instances.
Dr. McKnv: They have faith in the man making good? A. Yes, mostly
the mortgage companies are trying to give the farmer every chance, but these
payments are quite a drain on their resources, and I suppose they. will reach
point some time when they will not be able to make any further payments of
that sort.
:Now while tax sales are not the best index of conditions, owing to the
fact that the lands are not put up for sale until the taxes are more than one
year in arrears, and if not redeemed in two years, the land becomes the pro-
perty of the purchaser, and as a vast maiority of farmers have loans on land
the loan companies pay the taxes in many instances so that their security may
not be impaired. Besides this the Provincial Government instituted a " Pay your
taxes" campaign last fall, which had considerable effect.
The Cm_-: You do not suggest that the Government has to encourage
people to pay their taxes?--A. Well, they did this year. You will understand
that the attitude they took was this: many farmers did not have enough
money to pay all their creditors or even to pay some of them, and the Provin-
cial Government took the attitude that the thing of primary importance was
to keep the municipalities running. These taxes I have spoken of include
school and other taxes collected by the municipality and also the public
revenue is collected by the municipality. The Provincial Government is
absolutely dependent on the municipalities for collecting this part of its revenue;
there is a rate of two mills all over the Province, on rural land, which goes to
tim Provincial Government.
They advertised in nearly all the local papers, and in all the daily papers,
advising the farmers to pay their threshing expenses, their labour and their taxes
first of all out of their crop, and then divide the balance of the proceeds among
their creditors, pro rata. That had a considerable effect.
Q. I cannot follow you, Mr. Edwards, you go too fast. Will you repeat that
statement?--A. Yes, I will try to go slower; that is one of nay weaknesses.
Q. I would say it is more than a weakness; I think it is a vice.--A. Well, you
have given me some advice and that will help some.
The Provincial Government sent out their advertisement, spreading it
broadcast, advising the farmers to pay their taxes first and to pay their threshing
expenses and labour; any expenses connected with the harvesting and threshing
of their crop first and then pay their taxes. Any proceeds of the crop after that,
they advised the farmer to divide pro rata anaong his creditors. That had con-
siderable effect, because of the fact that a farmer felt that if it came to a dispute
between him and the creditors who were left over after these thins which I have
mentioned were paid, that he could very well say, "I have done what the
Government advised, divided the money lro rata," and then the Government,
if they found it necessary to intervene between creditor and debtor, as they did
through the Tax Adjustment Bureau, it would have considerable weight with
them, the fact that the man did what he was advised by the Provincial Gov-
ernment to do. So the advertisement had a considerable effect.
[Mr. George F. Edwards.]
438 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
O. And it wouhl be an area of approximately hov much?--A. About 15 by
8 miles, or 120 square miles.
The indebtedness to the hnnk was $250,000.
To the machine companies $80,000.
Q. Do the people in the West e.ver pay cash for anything?--A. Some of
them, when they have it.
To storekeepers. $125.000.
To outside horsedealers, not living in the district, $60,000.
Q. Those horsedealers were more confiding than they usually are. $60,000
to outside horsedealers?--A. Yes. Taxes $65,000.
Farmer to farmer debts, say $20,000. That is just estimated.
Q. You cannot take that into consideration?---A. No, you would not have
to put that in, but that is in this statement though.
Q. Did you add this up?--A. Yes, it is $690,000 including the $20,000;
so that it is $580,000.
Q. Would that cover mortgages?---A. :No, the mortgages are not included
in that. They were not able to ascertain the mortgage indebtedness. That
does not cover payments to owners of land.
Q. It is what you inight call current indebtedness as opposed to fixed in-
debtedness?---A. Yes. Unfortunatcly our Prox'incial Government has not seen
fit to compile statistics each year regarding the indebtedness of farmers, so it
is only guesswork to t.ry to arrive at any conclusion as to whether last year's
very large crop has put the farmers of the Province in any better financial
position; but as the price of all the farmer has to sell is low in comparison with
hat he buys, and as the average price of wheat was about 80 cents, and as
it has heen estimated by the Provincial Dcpartment of Agriculture that the
cost of production was 70 cents, it only leaves a margin of 10 cents per bushel
on 280,000.000 bu.hels, or a total available to pay debts of $28,000.000, and as
the statement of thc representative of the retail merchants at the Regina Con-
ference last year was that the retail merchants in the Province had outstanding
aceomts on their books of $100,000,000, and the representative companies in
the Saskatchewan Loan Association stated that their companies had $100,000,000,
out in lands, it is possibly well within the mark to say that the mortgage indebt-
edness of the Province exceeds $125,000,000.
As to the amount of S100,000,000 on the books of the retail merchants, that
statement was nmde by their secretary and I x'erified it by going to the office
later on. That has not been reduced very much, because I verified this abou
six weeks ago.
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q. Where is thi, $100.000200 owin?--A. To the retail stores in the small
villages in the Province of Saskatchewan. These are figures given by the Secre-
tary of the Ietail Merchants' Assoc.ation, of Saskatchewan. It is a staggering
figure and hardly credible.
Bit Dr. McKay:
Q. How many mcrchant. in the villages?---A. I think I have already said
about a thousand, but I would not vouch for that.
The CAIRM.: There is no use getting guesses on the record.
Mr. SAS: Mr. Chairman, I would say there would be more. There are, to
my own personal knowledge, over 700 shipping points in Saskatchewan, most of
these would have one store, many of them have three; a few of them hve none,
and then the retail merchants in the cities must be added to that. I would say
that a thousand is below the mark.
[Mr. George F. Edvrds.]
446 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Do you think it is possible to regulate the market, when the individual
himself can regulate and set his own prices? A. I do.
Q. You are advocating a readjustment between what you have to buy and
what we have to sell?--A. I think that readjustment will have to take plkee in
what we have to buy. I do not know that we can expect much more than one
dollar a bushel, f.o.b. Fort William. Europe needs our wheat, and will need
it for a long time to come. The price of our wheat is set in the Old Country,
not here. It will be difficult to arrange in any way for regulating the price of
wheat, because it is being marketed in ahnost every month of the year by some
country, and it is a very difficult thing to govern.
5"Iy point is this, that largely the farmers are at a great disadvantage,
beeausc of tile fact that other classes have refused to deflate the prices of their
products the way he has been compelled to deflate his.
I will read some figures to illustrate what I mean. Although the price
the farmer is compelled to accept for his products is much the same in dollars
and cents as compared with tile price he reeeive, l in 1913, he has to pay a great
deal more in tran.portation charges than he did before tile war. In 1913 the
e.rrying charge on a bushel of wheat from Fort William to lIontreal by all water
route was close to 6 cents per bushel. During recent years the charge for the
same service has averaged 10 cents for water transportation. The cost per
bushel la.t fall rose as high as twenty cents and over from Fort William to
Montreal.
The price charged by transportation companies for their services is in some
instances at least one hundred per cent higher than in 1913, while the farmer
has to take tile same price for his products.
The following was the average price per bushel of wheat, oats, barley and
flax in Saskatchewan in 1913. Wheat 71 cents in 1913, 76 cents in 1921.
B.q the Chairman:
Q. At what place was that, and what grade was it? A. That is the price
received at the stations. I have the authorities here for it.
Q. The station orice at any station in Saskatchewan? A. At local points,
all grades. Of course our grades were higher this year. If we had had low
grades we would not have had as much.
Btl Mr. Sales:
Q. You are not quoting Xo. 1, arc you?--A. 'o, sir, I am quoting the
average of the grades.
Oats sold for 25 cents in 1913, and for 24 cents in 1921.
Q. You have not the prices for 1922?A. No, sir. This is for 1921. The
crop season was not completed, and the statistics have not been compiled. Bar-
ley sold for 30 cents in 1913, and for 36 cents in 1921. Flax sold for 95 cents in
1913 and for $1.38 in 1921. That indicates a considerable rise in the price
of flax.
Bu the Chairman:
Q. In comparison with other grain crops, flax does not amount to very
much? A. *o, sir. Potatoes sold for 47 cents a bushel in 1913, and for 50 cents
per bushel in 1921.
According to the Canada Year Book, steers were sold at an average price
of $37.50 in 1913 as compared with $35 in 1921. It is rather significant to
note that although the farmer on|y got five cents per bushel more for his wheat
in 1921 over 1913, flour was $4.80 and over per hundred oounds in 1921, com-
[lIr. George F. Edwrds.]
450 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, ,a,. 1923
Mediate Remedies:
(1) Perhaps credits.
[2/ Unity of conception of the system of farming in the P.Q.
(3) Boost the growing of more clover and alfalfa of more silage and
roots.
(41 The formation of a provincial cow testing, feeding and breeding
association.
Immediate Remedies:
I1} The foundation of a Provincial Department of Agricultural
economics--in direct relation with our agricultural colleges.
{2/ A more efficient teaching in our agricultural colleges and the
vulgarisation of this teaching in the different grades of our rural
schools.
I trodction
" Mr. J. A. Stc-Maric formerly husbandman at the Central Experimental
Farm, at Ottawa and now director of the Experimental Farm of Ste-Anne de la
Pocaticre, P.Q., made, in the year 1920, a survey work on 302 farms in six
cotmties of the P'ovince of Quebec. He found that the average labour income
of the farmer was $338. Making a comparison between two group. of fifty
farms each, the first one being well managed according to rational methods of
farming and the second one less well managed, all farms in each group having
about the same number of acres {130}, the same invested capital, the same
animal units, hc found that the first group operated at a gain of $1,152 and the
second one at a loss of 8722. According to reports received from others who
made survey work along the same line, the labour income of farmers, last year,
was still below Mr. Ste-Marie's compilations. There is no doubt that the
present increasing flow of rural depopulation has its first cause in the labour
income of farmers. Low salaries on the farh have always been--in the past---
in my opinion the primary cause of the movement towards cities. The only
difference to-day is that the same cuse is even more true. If Canada wishes
to make progress by the federal and provincial governments, the agricultural
colleges, the educator. in general, the press, all have the duty to face the
problem, to study first of all the causes of this national evil which handicaps
our development in each province and to bring sound accurate remedies to the
low labour income of farmers. That is one of the aims, I think, of-your Com-
mittee and the reason of my coming here.
"I intend to discuss in this paper some of the causes which paralyze the
progress of the maiority of our farmers in the Province of Quebec, and to present
to your Committee my point of view on the accurate remedies to be brought up.
I will ba.e nw argumentation on my work as a udge of the last 'Farm Agri-
cultural Merit Contest'; al.o on my experience as a farmer's son, my obser-
vations during my trips through certain parts of the Province, my seven years'
study of agriculture, c.pccially my study of live stock and finally on the work
I am trying to do in the county of Two Mountains.
At the beginning of my thesis it is necessary, I think, to give a clear state-
meut of the general system of farming of Quebec, to show wtmt influence this
system las developed and to prove that it will continue so for a long time vet.
" The source of income is usually the basis used to classify the typ of
farming. In the province of Quebec the principal sources of income of the
greatest part of our farmers might be summarized this way: Milk, hogs, sheep,
poultry and field crops such as hay and grain. Some will derive their income
from all those products. Some will derive the greatest percentage of their
revenue from the sale of crops, hay and grains; but the great maiority, I think.
[Mr. Gustave Toupin.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 451
APPENDIX No. 3
are deriving their income from dairy products and hog raising as a derivative
industry of dairy. Without taking into consideration horticultursts, poultry
men, beekeepers, fruit-growers who are but a very small group among the great
mass of our farmers, we may say that most of our farmers transform hay and
grain in milk and pork, some entirely, others a strong percentage selling the
rest as cash crops. Therefore the system of farming in the province of Quebec
is based upon milk production and hog raising, upon live stock keeping in
general. That is the principal source of income.
" Such a system exists since more than 25 years. It took place under the
influence of certain economical factors which are still existing and will remain
operating very far in the future. These factors arc: Lack of competition
among other possible systems, demands of the market, soil and climate. Thirty-
five years ago, when the cash crops farming system became a failure, our
farmers bad no other issue than to leave the farm for the United States or take
to live stock raising. They had not the liberty of choosing; they oriented their
efforts towards the safer path and they based their system upon milk and to a
certain extent upon hog raising. he demand of the market for animal
products, by that time was strong, surer than for any other farm products. Soil
and climate were fit to furnish grain and forage for milk and pork production.
For all these reasons most of our farmers under the direction of our agricultural
schools, and government propaganda, went into that type of farming which will
remain unchanged very far into the future, because the same factors are still
existing. Of course, as long as the province of Quebec will possess nothing but
the actual centres of consumption, as long a. ndustry will not nmke greater our
cities, consequently greater the demand for horticultural products, fruits, honey,
poultr.v, those products will remain nothing but side lines on the farm or the
undertakings of specialists who will never be but a reD" small group among the
great mass of our farmers.
"On the other hand, cash crop farming especially bv this day of American
embargo is a hazardous operation and most often than otherwise does not pay in
general and will remain in the future the system of very few farmers. Necessar-
ily then, the great mass of our farmers will continue to orient their work towards
milk and hog production, because the factors which have brought up this type
of farming are the same in number and in a certain extent operating stronger
than in the past. Of course, the demand for animal products such as milk,
butter, cheese and bacon is strong on the local market. The foreign market
demand for those products is limited, according to Dr. Grisdale, only by their
quality. If we take into consideration that any kind of industry, to survive,
must be based upon a permanent market for its product-, we must conclude that
our type of farming, based upon milk and hog production, is in accordance with
that economical requirement, and apparently will remain so, very long in the
future.
It is with this conception in mind that I will try to point out a few causes
which paralyze the progress of a great number of our farmers who mostly have
a system of farming based upon milk production, and hog raising to a certain
extent.
As I said before, the failure of our farmers does not come from an error in
the choice of their type of farming but rather in the organization of their enter-
prise to make efficient their system.
A Few Causes Which Paralyze Progress
There are many causes but we may bring down to five those which handicap
the progress of our farmers in the province of Quebec:
1. The lack of a systematic production of field crops towards milk
and bacon production.
3---29 [.Ir. Gustave Toupin.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 453
APPENDIX No. 3
to transform. Most of our farmers do not raise the necessary raw material
that can be transformed into milk as shown in the previous pages, and they have,
in my opinion, something to learn yet about the rational feeding of live stock.
I will try to prove that assertion.
Each animal, whatever the class it belongs to, has its own requirements in
digestible nutrients according to its age and its weight, and for a dairy cow
according to her weight and her milk and fat production. Those nutrients are:
Protein, carbo-hydrates and fats. The sum of the three kinds, its fats being
multiplied by 2.25, gives what we call the total digestible nutrients.
A cow weighing 1,000 pounds must receive in a maintenance ration:
D.M. Dig. Pr. T.D.N. N.R.
12 to 21 ................... 7 7.925 1.10
The same cow giving 30 pounds milk, 4 per cent fat must receive a ration
containing
D.M. Dig. Pr. T.D.N. N.R.
25 to 30 ............ ' ...... 2.22 18.30 1;5.9
2.65 1;6.8
Keeping in mind the above statement let us consider the feeding of milk
cows during a whole year. The cows usually freshen at the end of March or at
the bcginning of April. They are milked until January of the next year. From
January to April they become dry, and are put on a maintenance ration.
Let us look over during the previous two periods the dsual rations which are
served according to the different parts of the province. We will consider first
the period from January until April, that is the period of the maintenance ration.
The following are maintenance rations that I consider are being fed by many
farmers.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I have a table of rations, tending to prove that certain
rations are poor and unfit to keep cows in good condition. I do not know that
this Committee is interested in these figures.
The CnmmN: I think we are interested in that, gentlemen, are we not?
Yes, go on.---A. I gave you what we call the standard of feeding a moment ago,
and we will compare this standard with the following ratio and we will see that
those rations are wrong. I think it is not necessary to try to prove to this
Committee that straw is not fit to maintain a dairy cow. Everyone knows that.
This ration does not contain a sufficient amount of nutrients to keep a cow in
good condition and to prepare her for the next milk flow. The table is is follows:
Standard 12
1. Straw 25
2. Straw 15
Corn
Fodder 30
3. Straw 20
Roots 25
4. Straw 10
Silage 40
5. Straw 18
D.hl.
to 21 pounds ........ 7
lb ............ 25
" .......... 1.05
" ........... 40
" ........... 54
Cows o[ 1,000 Pounds
Dig Pr. T.D.N. N.R.
7.925 1.10
11.4 1.45
22.5
10.97
11.64
1.21
1.27
1.20
[Mr. Gustave Toulpin.]
454
M. Hay
6. Straw
Mixed
Hay
7. Straw
Clover
8. Straw
Clover
Silage
Now let us
Ration No.
conceive.
,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Cows of 1,000 Pounds Concluded
D.M. Dig. Pr. T.D.M. N.R.
Cost.
10 "
.55 12.
.71 10.73
13 " ..........
10 " ..........
10 " ........... 86 9.66
8 " ........... 85 9.90
20 " ..........
discuss these rations, as follows.
1 is fed but by a very few farmers.
1.20 0.093
1.13 0.103
1.10 0.075
1.10 0.091
It is the worst that we can
Numbers 2, 3 and 4 are a considerable improvement on the first one, but
still unbalanced; they are served to a certain extent.
Number 5 is unbalanced. It is served by many farmers.
Number 6 is better than the others but still is not well balanced.
Number 7 made up of straw and clover; and number 8 made up of straw,
clover and silage are well balanced and cows may be kept in good condition on
them.
The six first ones or others not mentioned here, but of the same type, are
more used, in my opinion, than the two last ones, and evidently are less well
balanced to keep animals in normal condition.
On the other hand, most of our cows on the farm entered the stable, in the
fall, in a rather thin condition. The period of January to March should be
then the one where they could recover their flesh, their elements of reserve, in
order to be well prepared for the nex lactation period. In that case then, it is
more than a maintenance ration that should be given them. The dry period of
cows is considered by the best breeders as one of the greatest importance to
prepare the future milk flow. Most of our farmers do not pay sufficient atten-
tion to that most important point. This is a very great mistake, because a cow
who freshens in thin condition cannot give a big production of milk during the
year. I summarize th.e discussion of the feeding during that period by sayin
that the rations of our cows by that time are too poor to prepare them for a
big production, and that is so because first we do not grow enough clover in
general, and secondly, possibly not enough silage and roots. The rational feed-
ing of our cows during that period is of the highest importance.
What about the feeding of cows during the period of milk flow? The feed-
ing by that time is not a great deal better, except in June, because nature then
feeds the cow with pasture.
From the time the cow freshens until the time she goes to pasture, the
rations are unbalanced, an account of a lack of clover, and on account of a
concentrate which is too poor in protein. Of course, most of our basal rations
on the farm--as I said before--are made up of carbo-hydrate feeds, such as
mixed hay, timothy hay, straw, corn fodder, with those forages we have to buy,
for a good milk production ration, high protein feed such as linseed oil meal,
cottonseed meal, gluten or brewers' grain. However, that is just what the
great majority of our farmers do not do. The immediate consequence of an
unbalanced ration, after the cow is freshened, is that she will lose her flesh in
about one month of lactation, and will decrease rapidly in production, thus
reducing considerably the whole year's reproduction.
[Mr. Gustave Toupin.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 457
APPENDIX No. 3
(2) A campaign stronger than in the past if possible in regard to clover
and alfalfa production; in regard to corn silage in the Montreal region and
roots in the rest of the province. Two things have handicapped the success of
clover in certain parts of our province; the texture of the soil and the poor
value of manure. I am glad to say that our Provincial Government, by the
ilternediary of its Field Crops Department, is starting a campaign for the con-
struction of manure sheds, giving special subsidies to farmers who wish to build
manure sheds, and another campaign on limestone to be applied on clay soil.
These campaigns are very good, and I hope that Mr. Phil. Roy, Chief of the
Field Crop Department, will make a success of them.
(3) Cow testing, feeding and breeding associations under the direction of
a supervisor, who will test the milk and will survey the feeding and breeding.
Such as they are now, most of our farmers need a constant direction along those
lines. Feeding a cow efficiently and economically is a difficult problem. It is
still a more difficult problem to know the right kind of concentrates to buy.
All those difficulties may be easily solved by a good supervisor, a specialist in
animal husbandry. Mr. A. Morin, General Secretary of the Provincial Breeders'
Association in Quebec, is responsible for this suggestion. He is the man who
may give this Committee all the explanations upon the organizations and
functioning of those associations in existence in the United States and Denmark
I think.
Immediate Remedies
I have two other immediate remedies to point out before finishing this too
long study.
(1 The creation in our province of a strong Department of Agricultural
Economics, entirely devoted to the study of the economical questions, by means
of survey work on any kind of lines in agriculture, especialls" on markets. This
Department, analyzing the agricultural situation, will furnish to our agricul-
tural colleges the information they need for an up-to-date point teaching, and to
the men on extension work, right and sound directions.
(2) The second in}mediate remedy is more agricultural teaching. Let us
put more stress on agricultural teaching, not only in our schools affiliated to the
universities, but at the different degrees of our rural schools, both secondary and
primary, in order to prepare the youth to a better understanding of new
rational methods of farming. The money that the Government invests in agri-
cultural education is the money which will contribute the most to build up
Canada on a stronger basis, and to keep our farmers on the farms.
This is what I have prepared for you, but if there is anything else along
the same line which I have omitted, I will be pleased to answer your questions
to the best of my ability.
The CAmM-: You ma) sit down now, Mr. Toupin, and we will ques-
tion you.
A lot of practical things have been suggested in this paper, and I would like
some of the practical men on this Committee to explore some of the avemoa
of thought which the Professor has so ably opened up to us.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. You stated in the first part of your article that you found the average
labour income of a farmer was $338.7---A. Yes.
Q. What was in your mind in asserting that?--A. Well, Mr. Chairman, I
will answer that by saying that I take it for granted that this work was done
by Mr. J. A. Ste. Marie. I am not in a position to give you the proper answer,
as to the way Mr. Ste. Marie found these figures.
[hir. Gustave Toupin.]
458 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14-GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. In other words, Professor Toupin, you took as a basis certain figures
arrived at by Mr. J. A. Ste. Marie, but you have not investigated those figures
yourself, although you believe them to be accurate? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. There is one thing I would like to know, Professor, if you tell us, that
is, whether that is after due allowance is made for money invested in the
farm?--A. Yes, at 6 per cent.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Have you conducted in the Province of Quebec any system of farm
surveys?--A. You mean, our college?
Q. No, in any way?--A. The only survey made in the Province of Quebec
has been made by the Central Experimental Farm at Ottawa. Mr. Chagnon
is a husbandman at the farm, and lie made a survey in 1920. Last year the
man who succeeded Mr. Chagnon made a second survey, and lie gave me the
figures last night. I can mention them in my report, if you wish them. The)/
are still worse. I will give you some figures from the survey made last year in
the three counties of Pontiac, Sherbrooke and Bonaventure, in the region of
Campbell's Bay, Lennoxville, New Richmond, Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, St.
Casimir and St. Fabien. In the region of Campbell's Bay, Pontiac County, a
group of thirty farms has been studied, and the labour income has indicated a
loss of $99. In Lennoxville, Sherbrooke county, a group of thirty farms showed
a negative labour income of $53. There is a loss every way in these six regions;
the labour income is negative. In the first region the loss was $99, in the
second the loss was $33, in the third the loss was $117, in the fourth the loss
was $136, in the fifth the loss was $10, and in the sixth the loss was $399.
By the Chairman:
Q. Were they fair farms?A. Yes, sir, but operated at a loss.
Q. On each farm?--A. On each farm.
Q. They made an average loss? A. Yes.
Q. Such as you have mentioned?--A. I think that is per group, not per
farm.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. How were those groups determined?--A. That is outside of my line. I
am taking the figures for anted. The experts have studied the situation, and
have told me that the situation is such, and I believe it.
Q. I am not questioning the figures, but I would like to know how they
formed those groups? A. Such survey work is based on the average farm.
Q. A group of farmers in a district?--A. Yes.
Q. Were they representative farmers?A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Before 1920, when this loss appears, these men had not been going along
ever5, year in that fashion, or they would have been out of business; there is
something that has changed that situation?--A. I understand what you mean.
You mean that somethihg must have changed the conditions?
Q. They must have been feeding their cows the same in 1920 as in 1919,
1918 and 1917, and if they had been losing money from year to year they would
have been out of business; there has been a change; what is it, in your opinion?
By the Chairman:
Q. Do you understand the question? (Repeats question in French.) A.
Well, I will make the answer in this way; we cannot say that the low labour
[Mr. Oustave Toupin.]
462 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Tell us what a French-Canadian cow is? A. It is a French-Canadian
cow, the history of which is more or less well known. The origin of the French-
Canadian cow was that it came from Normandy, in the north of France; it
was brought out to the colony.
Q. It was brought out by the French colonists?--A. It was brought out
by the French colonists in the early days, kept in Quebec, and this breed has
nmltiplied since about twenty-five years.
Q. You have a book, tim same as other breed.?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is it a dais3" cow?--A. Yes, sir, it is a dairy cow.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is it somewhat like a Jersey?--A. Something like a Jersey.
Q. Only somewhat sturdier, somewhat hardier?--A. Yes.
Bg Mr. Hammell:
Q. Did you give the Holstein average?---A. No. We have only a few
head. The average of our whole forty-six cows, the whole herd, is 8.901 pounds
of milk; that is the average for the whole herd.
By the Chairman:
Q. Ayrshires and Canadians combined?--A. Yes, sir, Ayrshires and Cana-
dians combined.
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q. Tell us how much profit you make--because that is the point.--A. I
will tell you. The college has not the control of the herd, and on account of
that fact I cannot give you exactly the co.-_t of our milk. That is my first
reason. The second reason is that we cannot base any argumentation on the
cost of our milk at Oka, because most of the men who work in the cow barns
are monks and cheap labour. Then we haven't any conclusive figures there on
the cost of milk. You might figure the profit made per cow very easily, I think
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Is it not a fact that any cow giving more than 4,000 pounds a year is
looked upon as a profitable animal?--A. 'o, I would not say 4.000.
Q. Where would you start?--A. I would start at 6.000 pounds.
By the Chairman:
Q. Would you say that the cow that gives less than 6.000 pounds of milk
is a boarder rather than a helper?--I would not say she was , boarder rather
than a helper. Four thousand is too low. If you take 6,000 you have a chance,
if you raise hogs, mayhe to make a small labour income. But I would not dare
to start a system of farming, basing my hopes on any production per cow oi
less than 6,000 pounds of milk.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. I meant that almost every cow producing over 4,000 pounds was pas'in
for herself, that she was not paying very much of a profit, but it would not bc
a loss?--A. I think your starting point is a little bit low.
Mr. ELLIOTT: I think so too.
[Mr. Gustave Toupin.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 463
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. I am taking the figures of the Ontario Agricultural College, and such
institutions.--A. I never have made any survey work of that kind.
By Mr. McKag:
Q. Would that not depend largely upon the test of the milk a cow gives;
if a cow gives 4,000 pounds testing 6 per cent?--A. Provided you sell the milk
based upon butter fat.
Mr. I-IAlXllXELL: I would not expect a Shorthorn to give 6,000 pounds oi
milk either, nor a Polled Angus.
Bg the Chairman:
Q. How is the cheese at Ok, made, by the college or by the monks.?--A.
By the monks.
Q. Do the monks teach the men at the colee to make the cheese? A. No.
Q. That cheese is very profitable to make.?A. I think so.
Mr. SALS: Is this another close corporation?
The CHm.-: You and I cannot enter into that. Are there any other
questions to ask the Professor, because we have hlr. Cumming here, from Nova
Scotia.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. You spoke about buying concentrates. Do you not think if the farmers
would endeavour to grow those concentrates on their farms that they would be
able to produce milk very much cheaper than by spending money for the pur-
chase of it? A. In the actual situation our farmers are making a big mistake
in the buying of concentrates, and for this reason, as I told you, the basic ration,
the forage ration, is made up of foods, poor in certain principle, what we call
protein. Those foods arc timothy, hay, corn, fodder and straw. Now, they do
not know how to complete this forage and they buy bran and middliugs. That
is the only concentrate that is practically sold and with such forage they should
buy linseed oil meal, cotton seed meal, high protein feed, to complete the rations.
the low average of our cows--I think I might make this statement not only
for the province of Quebec, but for any province, is along the line of feeding
actually, in my opinion. I am doing work with farmers in the County of Two
Mountains, and I have prepared by letters some rations, and believe me I
cannot see how it is possible to produce milk with the forage enumerated and
with the concentrate they have.
Q. That is with the concentrates which they grow. A. They grow oats
and they grow barley, and oats and barley mixed together and grain cannot
compete with the ration made of timothy and straw. You have to put cotton
seed meal, linseed oil meal or gluten in in order to make up a complete and full
ration.
Q. Supposing you were to grow alfalfa in clover, hay, feed and oats and
barley?--A. You would have a big chance to have a complete r.ation; and that
is the reason that I would like to see a campaign on clover and alfalfa in the
Province of Quebec, becau.e you will make your ration cheaper.
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q You do not depend much on the importance of bran and middlings?
--A. Bran and middlings is important upon concentrates. You bring up the
question, may be you will be interested in knowing that. According to the
experiments made since a few years from protein we have found that each
concentrate, let us say, bran and middlings, cotton seed meal, linseed oil meal,
oats, all those concentrates are incomplete in various principles, and if )'ou want
[Mr. Oustav Toupin.|
464 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
tO make more nutrition, you have to combine the four, five or six kinds. Do
your understand? That is the reason I told you bran is good, but not alone.
Q. You are making experiments with two or three farmers?--A. I am
advising.
Q. Well, will you do this for a year: ask these people to keep exactly an
account of every hour they put in there so you will know the cost of producing,
to see if it is possible to pay the farmer a decent wage and his children a decent
wage, as compared with the men in the city. If you will follow it out for a
year you are doing a really practical service. I would commend that side of it
to you.
The CHAmMA: We are very much obliged to the professor and I am sure
we have appreciated his testimony very much, especially when you consider he
is giving his testimony in a different, language from the one he has learned. He
told me when he first went to Corncll he did not know any English. I thank
you very much, Professor.
Witness retired.
hlELVILLE CUMIIING, called, sworn and examined.
By the Chab'man:
Q. Mr. Cumming, you occupy a position, I understand, with the Government
of 'ova Scotia, which is equivalent to that of deputy minister?---A. Yes.
Q. And you have been deputed by your Government to come before this
Committee and tell us about the conditions of agriculture in the Maritime
Province of Nova Scotia?--A. Yes.
Q. And if the situation is not as it should be, to make some suggestions
as to methods of betterment?
Q. I think you have possibly prepared some general statement to make to
us. My proposal is that you make that general statement and then we will
question you on different matters.--A. Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, unlike the
preceding witnesses, I did not supply myself with a formidable array of papers.
It happens to be a busy season, but I have here different data which I gathered
together at a number of farmers' meetings, which I happened to have been at
during the past two weeks. However, I would like to say a few things about agri-
culture in our country, and I will try to be as specific as I can. Anticipating
this occasion, I met, for example, last Friday with a group of representative
farmers in our fruit-growing section at Kentville, Nova Scotia, to inquire into
prevailing conditions, and to learn from them as to whether they thought any
steps could be taken to affect an improvement on those conditions. Now, I
might say, and of course you will be prepared to hear this, that conditions in
Nova Scotia, so far as agriculture is concerned, are very considerably depressed,
but having, during the past few weeks, gone from one end of the province to
the other, I find that the general attitude of the farmer is rather to regard this
condition as an abnormal one, and to look forward with a reasonable degree
of hope to an improvement of conditions by which they will be restored to a
greater degree of prosperity. I submit to you a few figures, given to me by
those fruit growers, relative to that one product, and they are practically the
same figures that apply to other products. I took figures from the United
Fruit Company, which is a corporation that will handle about forty per cent of
the fruit crop of Nova Scotia, and which handles perhaps sixty per cent of the
fertilizer, feeds, et cetera, bought in that part of the country. In the years
1920-1921, the average price they paid for apples, No.'s 1, 2 and 3 was $3.84 por
barrel, net, to their members. In 1921-1922, $3.24. The figures are not como
[lIr. Melville Cumming.]
462 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
followed up to-day. I notice for the current year I happen to have some prices.
The statement for the current year is issued on April 2rid. The United Fruit
Companies will pay for Baldwin's, No. 1, $2.42; No. 2's, $1.67; No. 3's, 72 cents.
It is very clear from that standpoint and still more from the standpoint that we
are sending an inferior article over, if we can consume these No. 3's it would be
a good thing. There are several factories in Nova Scotia where they are making
a lot of cider. The United Fruit Companies are making a lot of vinegar.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is not that strawberry jam?--A. There is a thing that will bear the
utmost investigation. This jam business is a matter we are talking a good deal
about, in consuming the hi-product. I myself vent through the Valley a few
years ago with a big English manufacturer. I thought about that sort of thing,
and he said " I do not see at present how I can manufacture here ", because he
pointed out certain duties on container and sugar. The reason I am not develop-
ing that is because I am not conversant enough with it. I do not know t.hc
subject well enough to have my opinions aired, but he said "there is a limiting
factor." one the less we would like to have this question pretty carefully
investigated, and I do not think I need more than ask your Committee to bear
out the Dominion Agricultural Committee's stand. Last year we made a large
amount of canned apples. The prices are so low they will not ever pay the cost
of production. I understand however, that the de-hydrated process is now
coming into use, and that the de-hydrated article is sold at a good deal higher
figure.
Q. What is the difference in the two?--A. I do not know. I think they have
some vacuum processes that make it a particularly fine article, and I believe
if we could get any assistance in giving us expert advice in respect to develop-
ing that process and still more in respect to finding out markets, that all the way
through it would enable us to consume inferior fruits, and the bi-product woull
be a better thing.
Q. When you can apples you have to use tin containers and you have to use
sugar? A. Do not press me too far, because I had hoped to b'ing before you
the best authority in Nova Scotia, a man who has had a great experienc of
cider factories, and I would like to have this gentlemen come before you.
By the Cairman:
Q. You might give us his name? A. J. W. Salter of Bridgetown. He has
a great amount of information, and I think it is a very valuable line of work with
great possibilities.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You spoke of a British manufacturer coming to Nova Scotia and stating
that he could not manufacture there. That was because of what?---A. Because
of the duty on containers, the duty on sugar, and the high cost of labour.
Q. What year was that? A. It was before the war. I think it was about
1913.
Q. Do you say that the cost of labour was very high in Nova Scotia at that
time?--A. We considered that it was higher than in England, very much higher.
In England they were hiring farm labour at 2 shillings a day in those times.
:Now, I have gone over the complete situation, and I think I have fairly
thoroughly covered it. If there are any more questions to be asked, I shall lc
glad to answer them. There is ust one other point that I would like to mention
if you are not going to take up another witness. There is one other great
grievance that we have down there; it is in respect to the storage of our apples
at the Halifax terminals, from which most of our fruit goes. This winter has
[Mr. hlelville Cumming.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 471
APPENDIX No. 3
store cattle or beef cattle when they arrived in Great Britain. This is a
Canadian Press despatch from London, quoting the Minister of griculture in
England.
Mr. SALES: Will you read it Mr. I-Iammell, please?
Mr. HAMMELL: Yes.
"London, March 30.--The Minister of Agriculture has issued an
announcement calling attention to the provisions of the Act respecting
the importation of store cattle, which applies only to store cattle as
defined in the Act, namely animals intended for breeding purposes, not
for immediate slaughter. It is not the intention of the Minister to allow
fat cattle to be treated as store cattle, and to permit them to pass through
the place of landing to inland markets and slaughter houses. Such
cattle will be removed to the category of slaughter animals and be killed
at the place of landing."
Mr. SALES: There is no fault to find with that.
Mr. HAMMELL: Yes I think there is. We were given to understand that
we could ship fat cattle as store cattle. Then if the market was not suitable
when they were landed, we could ship them to an inland market and keep them
for three or four weeks, a short period of time, and then put them back on the
market as fat cattle.
lIr. ELLIO::: He is going to say that those cattle will not be stockers.
Mr. HAMMELL: I suppose that will be decided at the ports.
h[r. SALES: May I explain, Mr. Chairman? I have seen farmers at the
Fat Stock Market in competition with butchers, where cattle were being sold
to butchers who had hotel trade and such like; they would buy in our fat cattle,
because there was an opportunity of further finishing them and giving the
weight and prime quality to that beef. It is all a question of who is going to
say when an animal has reached the height of prime.
Mr. HAMMELL: That is exactly what this clipping says; that such cattle
will be removed to the category of slaughter animals.
Mr. S_LES: If a butcher attends those markets and buys the cattle as fat
cattle he says, we will not be able to move them around the country as men will
who intend to further fit them. That is all I get from that dispatch.
Mr. HAMMELL: Suppose on the day they arrive the market is not favour-
able; he might send them 30 or 40 or 50 miles, keep them two or three weeks
and put them on the market then.
Mr. ELLIOTT: It would resolve itself into this; if a butcher buys those
cattle, they must be slaughtered. If a feeder buys thegn, he takes them into the
country.
Mr. GARDINER: A recommendation has been made before this Committee
with reference to shipping all our stock as stockers. That is exactly the point
that occurred in Glasgow. Butchers were there in competition with the farmers
to buy the Canadian stock as they were sold by auction. The butchers picked
out what they thought was fit for their particular business and the farmers took
the balance to feed. So that I think there should be not trouble in his matter
at all. I read a Press dispatch the other day of the first sales that took place
of our stocker cattle in Glasgow, which stated that the recommendations made
before this Committee were evidently very good and to the point.
The CHAIRMAN: I see the possibility of trouble such as Mr. Hammeli
points out. I think it is wise to ship them all as stockers. If they are thin
enough to pass as stockers, they will pass as stockers; and if they are so ver 3
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION,S 473
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. And the packages cost at that time?--A. Twenty-five to thirty cents.
Q. So your cost of production has risen, in round figures, $1 since 19137--
A. Yes, that is about right.
Q. And you are getting for your crop at this time?--A. About the same
or slightly more than we got in 1913.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. To what do you attribute the rise in the cost oY production? A.
Wages enter into it. Freight enters very largely into it, for we buy in order
to produce, quantities of fertilizer, and of course we buy various kinds of
implements, and spraying materials, and so our freight bills are very hearT.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. The present price of implements and so on brings back the increased
cost to the question of wages?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That all enters into the cost of production, the present cost of all
your materials and also of labour.--A. Yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. I-Iave taxes been raised?---A. Yes.
Q. Both municipal and all other taxes?--A. Yes. I cannot give you
exact figures but I hear the farmers saying that they are paying about double
the taxes they used to pay. I am not qualified to give accurate information
on that point.
Q. Then if we have finished with apples, will you go on to dairy products?
---A. Dairying is the most important branch of our general agriculture. It is
followed not only in the sections that are not engaged in fruit growing, btt
even in the fruit growing sections dairying is an important branch of industry.
We are not big province, and therefore not big producers. None the less
we have made moderately substantial progress in dairying, especially in
respect to the manufacturing end of the business. I suppose that if I were to
show you that we have increased the output of our creameries a thousand per
cent in the last decade, that would sound like a pretty big figure. It does not
mean that we have increased the production of our farms that much, bat
we have increased the actual manufacture in creameries, and we find, going
back to individual farmers, that there has been quite a substantial increase,
which however has not been maintained during this past year. We have
reached a stage now where we are quite fearful as to what is going to happen
if the present conditions continue.
It is difficult to get accurate figures in regard to the business side of dairy-
ing in Nova Scotia, but the prevalent feeling among the farmers is that either
they are carrying on the busines.s at some loss, or else in some cases, by very
careful economization they are lust carrying on the business and that is all.
None the less, those farmers are not giving up hope by any means: they
are expecting and hoping that the time is not far distant when things wiil
be changed so that either their cost of production goes down or the returns
are increased in the various ways we talked about when discussing the other
phases of the question.
Now in the solving of this, there is no doubt that there are two sides
to it. -The farmer himself enters very strongly into it. I might give you
specific figures and some of them will sound low, but they represent conditions
in our country.
[Mr. Melville Cunning.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION 475
APPENDIX No. 3
is largely for that reason we talk about sires. None the less in say the oper-
ations of our own farm, we have a very high class herd, and I really think we
sometimes value our fenmles more than the sires because we know that that is
the source of our still better sires. I think we are inclined to talk from the
standpoint of the constructive breeder a little too much about the sires and not
enough about the value of a really good female.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. There is this feature of it, Dr. Cumming, that it is pretty hard for a
man to discard his old herd and get new females, but he can get a new sire, and
the sire is half the herd in breeding?A. Yes, that is the point. You have put
in a little clearer fashion what I have tried to say.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. One must be supplemental to the other before you get perfect stock.
They are only mongrels until the females are as good as the sires?--A. Yes, and
appropriate to your question, I happened to talk to the man who supplied the
largest amou1t of cream to the Yarmouth Creamery. He is a very practical
farmer, and used to nmnagc ])r. Graham Bell's farm while carrying on his own
at the same tine. He said to me: " All you men are talking eternally about
breeding; now in my operations I adopted the practice of buying my cows and I
find over and over again that I buy from a farmer a pretty poor looking co"
and bring her into my stable and feed her and I improve her immensely; not
merely in leading to a larger production, but leading to a large production on
economical lines.
By the Clairman:
Q. We must give environment its fair share of credit as well as heredity?--
A. We certainly must.
Now so much on the general line. No artificial measures can be substituted
for things the farmer can do himself. I have quoted figures showing that 20
farmers at one creamery are solving this problem. If 20 men can do it, it is
reasonable to suppose that some more can do the same thing.
:None the less these 20 will say " We are seriously handicapped at the
present time by pretty much the same conditions which have been handicapping
our fruit growers and other producers."
I brought this subject up last Thursday before the Agricultural Committee
of the Provincial Legislature. I told them I was coming here, and I said, Can
you tell me anything that I can tell this Committee in Ottawa in respect to which
there might be a possibility of improving conditions? You will not be surprised
to learn that the first thing spoken of was freight rates. Wherever you go it
freight rates. They passed a resolution saying, if anything can be done to
adjust freig!-_,t rates it means a great deal and they point out that the farmer
pays freight rates two ways; on the stuff coming in to him and also on the
stuff going out; so that he is hit twice. In the East. as regards dairying, our
farmer are affected on this line more than in some other places. We are large
buyers of feed, bran and middlings and such feeds, and freight rates enter very
substantially into those costs. In fact I think in recent years freight rates
doubled the cos, or the price we had to pay for bran and middlings. Those
figures are not fresh in my memory, so that I cannot verify that at the moment,
but you have heard enough about it, and I need not go into it more fully.
Melville Cumming.]
476 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Salcs:
Q. What does your legislative committee mean by " adjustment " of freight
rates? Do they really mean an adjustment or a reduetion?--A. They mean a
reduction.
Q. Then had you not bett.e" use the word " reduetion?"--A. Yes, perhaps
I used the word " adiu-.'ment " loosely. I thank you for tim correction.
By the Chairman:
Q. Perhaps you used " adiustment" in the sense of making them "ust,"
which would make them lower?
By Mr. Sales:
Q. But " adjustment " means that probably someone else is getting a
cheaper rate somewhere else than your people get, and the use of the word might
lead one to that eonclusion?--A. \Yell, " reduction " is the word I mean. Then
the ne thing brought up, and which I regard as of very great importance, in the
eastern part of Canada, is the effeeting of an improvement in our local market
situation, and speaking of dairying, this calls for lust a brief comment. While
dairying is the mainstay of our agriculture, our observation is that if the farmer
is to nmke money he must in addition to dairying have a cash crop source of
income also. Studying the affairs of our more successful farmers we find that
if a farmer gets about 60, 70, or 75 per cent of his income from dairving, it
should be possible for him to get 25 to 40 per cent of his income out of cash
crops. There is where our biggest trouble lies in Nova Scotia to-day. We have
a good country for producing such cash crops as potatoes, cabbage and any-
thing else of that kind, chickens and so forth, but our local market is limited.
If someone were to come to me, or ha'd come to the Provincial Committee on
Agriculture last Thursday and said " What is the most practical thing to be
done to immediately improve the condition of the farmers in Nova Scotia?", we
would say: If some means could be found by which interior Canada would buy
more of our coal and any other manufactured product we can produce, that I
think might be the answer. Now, to show what that means--you anticipate
me, of course--while I will not go into details, our best local market for cash
products is the market that centres around our coal mines, Sydney, Pictou
county and Cumberland county. During the war years, when munitions were
being made and cars were being manufactured, we had a splendid market for
our cash products there, and ever3" farmer could sell his cash crops practically
ad libitum. However, last year numerous farmers who followed the procedure
of previous years had grown cabbages, potatoes, and all that sort of stuff, but
they found a very limited market for it. On our own farm which we had
developcd along cash crop production lines, we had to feed some of those vege-
tables to our cattle. The home market is the market we want, and I feel ve
sure that if means could be worked out by which we would sell more of our
coal in interior Canada, that that would be the most practical measure of
improving agricultural conditions, at least in the province of Nova Scotia, also
in the province of Prince Edward Island, and in the province of New Bruns-
wick. because Prince Edward Island in particular markets cash crops quite
heavily in these centres.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. You have a development of industries peculiar to your locality, such
as coal, and you admit that to build up a good market there is more ;aluable
to your farmers than an export trade?--A. Yes. You mean from the standpoint
of Nova Scotia?
[Mr. Melville Cumming.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 477
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Yes.--A. Our soil down there is somewhat peculiar. We could not pro-
duce wheat on an export basis, but we can produce these cash crops of vege-
tables, which demand a borne market.
Q. Still you have to keep up the fertility of your soil? A. Well, we have
the fertilizers to help out in this case. I would like to say a word or two about
this coal question. I know from my own experience that that coal would be
entirely adequate to market here.
By the Chairman:
Q. You have a license to talk about coal if you wi.h, because you come
from Nova Scotia.--A. I am not a coal miner, although I was born in a coal
town. I wish what I am going to say could be realized by householders all over
the countD'. When I started house-keeping I burned Nova Scotia coal, which
is soft coal. The wise men came to me and asked me why I was burning soft
coal, and told me the merits of hard coal. I put out nay soft coal furnace and
burned hard coal in a furnace manufactured in Montreal. Prices went up, and
as far as heat units were concerned, I could buy soft coal better, and I com-
menced to burn soft coal in my hard coal furnace, and I have not bought a pound
of hard coal since then. I am buying more heat units for my money in soft coal.
I can start up a fire quicker, I am saving money, and secondly I am learning
to burn soft coal. There is a great deal in that. I was taught to burn soft
coal, not by one of these learned fellow., but by a little negro boy.
Q. A Nova Scotian as well?--A. Yes. This is apropos in a general way;
he said to me, the way you are burning your soft coal, you are making a lot
of soot. After starting a good fire I would put in big lumps and then cover
it up with finer stuff. The boy said, if you will fire your furnace this way, put in
your lumps and shove them to the back of the furnace, then put your fine stuff
at the front, and there will be ve- little soot formed. That seemed reasonable,
although it did come from that little coloured fellow. I do not mention it to say
that it is the best way of burning soft coal, but I do say that when people
say they cannot burn soft coal it should be determined whether they have
learned how to burn soft coal. I have no hesitation in saying that if I lived
in Ontario, where I used to live, and if prices were what they were, and if we
could get soal coal here at the prices of former days, I would burn soft coal,
I would not care whether it was Alberta or :Nova Scotia coal.
If you can see your way clear to buy more of our coal and cash crop pro-
ducts, you will do more in that way than by anything else you can do.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. What did you say about the.saving from the use of soft coal?--A. I
saved $50 this year over what I have saved before. My bill is $50 less than it
was last year.
Q. What do you suggest in the way of a reduction in freight rates?--A.
That is the whole question.
Q. How would you get at it?--A. You are out of my province now. In the
old days, when the Intercolonial Railway was constructed of course, coal was
hauled at a moderately low rate.
By the Chairman:
Q. I have heard it suggested that when the Intercolonial Railway was
running it cost very much less to haul goods from Nova Scotia to Montreal
than it did to haul goods from Montreal to Nova Scotia?--A. That is what was
intended in the British North America Act, so we say.
[Mr. Melville Cumming.]
478 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. What is the price of this coal in Nova Scotia to-day?--A. I buy my
coal at the mouth of the pit for about $6.50 a ton.
Q. What is it delivered for, in Nova Scotia? A. It is retailed iu small
quantities around $12. The way I would buy it, it would cost me in the vicinity
of between $9 and $10 a ton.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Would the New England market not be of great assistance to you?--A.
It was, in the old days. That was why they gave us the Intercolonial at cheap,
rates, because they said we had given up that Eastern United States market,
and as we understood it we were to have access to this market at a special freight
rate, and whether it is just or not, as you very well know, having heard it many
times before, we hold that what was promised at that time is not being lived
up to just now.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. A verbal promise?---A. You have heard so much about it that it is a
question whether a laxTer would find it in the British North American Act. Still
there are contemporary subjects. You want a better authority than me to
discuss this question.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What is the bearing of all this on the agricultural problem.%-A. Very
substantial. Our home markets are not being built up, and we say that the
most practical thing would be to help us in Nova Scotia is to help build up our
Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick markets. Our apple
industry was built up on the potato business with the New England States.
Our name Bluenose came from that.
Q. I have often wondered about that.---A. Prior to the passing of the
McKinley Tariff, all that section of Nova Scotia which now grows fruit grew
potatoes, and we shipped them across by schooner very cheaply to the New
England markets. We grew a very fine potato, a dark one.
By the Chairman:
Q. Almost as fine as in New Brunswick?---A. It was of a rather bluish
character, a bluish potato. That is believed to be the origin of the word Blue-
nose. They saw those blue potatoes coming in from Nova Scotia, they callot
them Bluenoses, and although we would like a more aristocratic origin, yet there
are people who do not forget the days when we sold those potatoes with the
Bluenoses, and who wish that by some means that trade could be restored. Tha
would be as good as giving us the local market.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. It is a good thing to know that it had not a different origin?---A. I think
you are referring to red rather than blue. However, this divergence on to
industrial lines is very very sound and very very practical. If you make no
other suggestion, if you can be the means of allowing us to sell more coal and
cash crop products up here, we will take our chances.
By the Chairman:
Q. You want to be able to furnish a supply of those dark complexioned men?
--A. I still had a little trouble with soot, and I discovered that by burning about
one pound of common salt in my furnace a week I could avoid that. Throw your
salt on; very penetrating fumes arise, and it is wonderful bow the soot'dis-
appears.
[Mr. ]VIelville Cu,nming.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 479
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I would suggest that you appear before the Fuel Committee.--A. I am
willing to do so.
By the Chairman:
Q. Where did you get the hint about the salt?--A. I got that in a Toronto
paper, the Toronto Saturday :Night.
By Mr. Grimmer:
Q. It has the effect of burning the chimney; that is the trouble with soft
coal? A. I have had no trouble on that score, and I have a hard coal furnace.
By the Chairman:
Q. If a chimney catches fire, throw some salt down it. A. To resume
this Committee in Halifax next said to me "You know that the dairy
business is carried on on a very narrow margin, some are losing
money, some are on a very narrow margin, while others are making very little
money." They passed a resolution absolutely unanimously against the manu-
facture of oleomargarine in Canada. This may not come under the jurisdiction
of this Comnfittee, but one reason they said was that the dairying business was
the foundation of agriculture in Nova Scotia, and it is being carried on with
a very small margin of profit, and anything that would menace the carrying on
of that industry they regard, and I regard as far as my judgment goes, as a very
serious matter. Frankly we do not know to what extent the extensive sale of
oleomargarine might interfere with prices, but we do say that there is a doubt,
and the dairy farmers are a unit, hy resolutions and expressions of opinion,
and as such are strongly opposed to it.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Your dairy organiz,qtions? A. Yes, and our Provincial Legislature, by
unanimous vote.
By the Chairman:
Q. Just for a moment upon that point, are there any other countries in
the world, manufacturing dairy products, in which the manufacture of oleo-
margarine is forbidden? A. No, sir, not that I know of. But conditions are
different in different parts of the world.
By Mr. McKay"
Q. Is oleomargarine a serious eompetitor?--A. No, I do not consider oleo-
margarine a serious competitor. The permit has been of a provisional char-
acter, and as a result there has not been a substantial increase in the bu.iness.
Q. You are not eating oleomargarine as some of the people in European
countries are?--A. We are eating some.
By the Chairman:
Q. Have you any expression of opinion from the miners as to oleomargarine?
A. I understand they have rather favoured it, because it is a cheap food and
they should be allowed to have it. Nevertheless those same men tell us that if
you can only improve agricultural conditions in Nova Scotia you will give them
a better chance of living. They are putting it up to us, and it would seem to be
logical to turn around and say to them that if the manufacture of oleomargarine
reduces the price of butter it will make it more difficult for the farmers to carry
on their business.
Q. Having considered that matter, while your people nm.t have looked
at it from every angle, what was the chief obiec.ion, was it that it xva a better
[lr. Melville Cumming.]
480 ,SPECIAL COMM1TTEJE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
food, or upon what ground were they opposed to the manufacture or the
limitation of it?--A. To answer that question, ] may say that in so far as it
has been noticed up to date, we have not observed that it has been a substantial
competitor of butter, but we are fearful of what may happen if the manufacture
and importation is permanently established, because we naturally look for a
much .stronger market than there is to-day. We would not think so strongly
about it if dairying was being carried on at a profit; but we are on a narrow
margin, and we do not want to menace it.
Bg Mr. StttlerlaTtd:
Q. With regard to other countries prohibiting the importation of eleomar-
garine, as a matter of fact there is no country in the world where the nanu-
facturers of eleomargarine are given the privileges they et in this country?--A.
That is right.
Q. On the other hand, all the elements that go into the manufacture of
oleomargarine here are refunded to the extent of 99 per cent?--A. Yes.
Q. Oleo oils are largely imported from the United States?---A. Yes.
Q. Cotton seed oil and various other oils, even salt is imported?--A. Yes.
Q. Coming in free?--A. Yes.
Q. These are many of the more serious objections that the people of this
Province have to oleomargarine?--A. We have all these objections, but I had not
intended to go into this thing technically. We are fearful, and as long as there
is a shadow of doubt as to what nmy happen, we think that at the present time,
when dairying like other branches of farming is going through a crisis, it would
be most inopportune to permit the manufacture of this material, which may
possibly depress the price of dairy butter.
Bg Mr. Milne:
Q. Lumbermen employing large numbers of men a.nd paying wages and
board buy oleomaarine because it is cheap, whether they like it or not?--A.
Yes, I have heard that, and I understood that some of our lumbermen could cut
down their bills about ten per cent by buying oleomargarine.
By the Chairman:
Q. Would it not depend upon the price of board?--A. :No, I don't think so.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. Is it not a fact that the fisherman have equipped their boats with
oelomargarine?--A. Lumbermen and fishermen have a strong tendency to do
that, because they are away from the centres, and there is no option. It is not
an option of the actual employer, the owner of the boat, or the lumber operator,
who may buy it. At the same time we hold that they are taking an unfair
advantage of their employees.
Q. If there is no complaint from the fishermen, the fishermen themselves
from :Nova Scotia are sending telegrams to Ottawa, asking that oleomargarine
be permitted?--A. Furthermore, Mr. Sinclair, have you traced out the source of
those telegrams? I met a certain businessman in mv own town the other dav,
who said to me, You had better look out for yourselves, we are asked to sed
telegrams to Ottawa. So evidently there is a propaganda on. I think the origin
is not in :Nova Scotia, but outside of the Province altogether.
Q. I think it is on both sides.---A. Maybe that is so.
By the Chairman:
Q. You are leaving the large problem to go to the question of oleomargarine?
---A. I have recorded the views of the dairymen of lova Scotia.
The CHAIRMAN: Yes, with eloquence and conviction.
[Mr. lIelville Cunming.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 481
APPENDIX No. 3
By 11Ir. Mibe:
Q. Does Nova Scotia export butter?--A. Well, we export a little butter, but
we do not produce as much as we consume; we are importers.
Q. Does the home demand really regulate the price of butter, in Nova
Scotia?--A. It is a world price. The price of butter in Nova Scotia is based
upon world conditions. It is the same price as you pay here, or in any other part
of the world.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. What duty is there on butter coming in?--A. Three cents under the
British preference, and four cents outside, in other countries.
Mr. SuTI-IERLAITD: It is eight cents going into the United States, but our
tariff is four. There were 21,726.000 pounds of butter exported from Canada
last year, to seventeen different countries.
hlr. SEs: How much was imported?
hIr. SVTHELA-D: 2.238.000 pounds.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Would that affect tile price or the market of the Nova Scotia farmers?
A. No. We would get tile benefit in our cash crops. Butter remains practi-
cally at the same figure all over Canada, making an allowance for freight.
By the Chairman:
Q. You want oleomargarine prohibited, so that you can help grow cattle?
A. You are pressing the point a little far, Mr. Chairman.
Q. Is this not your point, that the elimination of oleomargarine may
possibly help? I thought the price of butter remained the same, but the cash
crops would be helped? A. The whole situation was in reference to the cash
crops. I did not introduce the industrial situation so much from the standpoint
of dairying as from the standpoint of cash crops.
Q. Does the fear of the competition of oleomargarine affect dairying?A.
Yes, that is right.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. I would like to have your own private opinion upon this question: Do
you think it is fair for the Government to say to their people, If you want to
uy oleomargarine, or if you want to buy butter, you shall not buy oleomar-
garine; you must buy butter; you cannot have oleomargarine at thirty cents,
you must buy butter at sixty cents?--A. If this was a free trade country, I
would be inclined to agree with your implication contained in your remarks.
I am not talking so much from a tariff standpoint. In all lines of industry,
even in our professional lines, there is a certain amount of protection to-day.
By the Claira:
Q. Suppose it is true that woollen socks are from your point of view
hygienically, economically and socially much better than cotton socks, would
you think it right of the Government to say that they would prohibit the manu-
facture of cotton socks, that you should luy more because it is going to help
the wool growers of the country?--A. I cannot help but admit the logic of your
contention; at the same time I say we are dealing with local situations. We
have a very valuable industry which to-day, whatever the future may be, is
struggling, and until such time as that indust" is on its feet I view with appre-
hension any measure of this sort.
[Mr. Melville Cununing.]
484 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
ptt on the market in the fall, if better cold storage facilities could be worked
out, it would be a substantial contribution to the improvement of our agri-
culture.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Have you ever thought of it from this point of view, Dr. Cumming?
That in the fall, when every farmer wants to sell live stock, our supply of meat
for next summer is shipped to Montreal to get the advantage of a cold storage
and abattoir service as well and the freight is paid to Montreal. Then a very
high class freight ratc is paid back again in refrigerator cars. Our consumers
in the Maritime Provinces pay a very high price for meat, and the farmer gets
practically nothing for raising cattle, due to these conditions?---A. Yes, we feel
that it can be worked out and although there are difficulties in the way, the
question of cold storage for farm products in the Maritime Provinces is a vital
question and can be solved. The solution is temporarily difficult because of the
lack of combination and production, and perhaps lack of volume of production.
At the same time, if I were given unlimited scope to put in a constructive policy
for agriculture in Eastern Nova Scotia, I would certainly try to do more for
cold storage at one or more centres than is now being done.
Q. Do you think the limited production is due to the conditions I have
mentioned?--A. Yes, probably entirely so.
Q. I have been in touch with two or three abattoir companies trying to
induce them to locate in the Maritime Provinces, at some central point. They
are willing to do it if either the Dominion or Provincial Government will guar-
antee them against loss for the first two or three years. At the end of three
years they have no hesitation in saying, it would pay, but for the first two or
hree years they would not expect it to pay. Have you any opinion on that?
--A. I think that is so.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. I have bought quite a few carloads of lambs from Nova Scotia but I
have had to discontinue it, due to two things: one is the freight, and the other
the fact that the male lambs are not castrated.---A. Yes, we have to admit that.
We have tried to do a good deal along that line. I remember one year when
a buying concern announced in the spring that they would pay 50 cents each
more for wethers than for rams, and yet we had difficulty in getting the farmers
to respond. In the last two or three years we have sent out two men from
the department who actually did the castrating, but the strange thing is that
after we had shown them the necessity for it, we had difficulty in getting some
of the farmers to carry it out.
Q. Don't you find the difference between the price for the rmns and the
wethers would be far more than enough to pay for the work? A. Yes. It is
only lately that we have been working up a moderately systematic market for
lambs, and I think that can soon be solved once we get it placed on a little
better business basis. I am very glad to have heard your statement, Mr.
Elliott, and I will quote it at some farm meetings in the near future.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Both castration and docking would be very useful? A. Yes.
Mr. Emr: You produce very good lambs which do well with us, but
the presence of the rams takes the whole profit out of the transaction.
Mr. SUTI-IERLAND: Do you mean buying them for finishing?
Mr. ELLIOTT: Yes.
Mr. S:THERAD: Would it not pay the farmer to finish his own rams
rather than send them to Ontario for that purpose?
[Mr. Melville Cumming.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 485
APPENDIX No. 3
Mr. ELLIOTT: I suppose it would, but they do not do it.
Dr. Ct'M[G: There is the same question there as in regard to the cattle
situation in Britain. Grain is expensive in our country and it would pay the
farmers to raise the lambs to a certain stage and then send them here to be
finished rather than to finish them in their own country.
By the Chairman:
Q. There is something to be said for the policy of allowing people to follow
that line by which they get the greatest economic return?--A. Unquestionably.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Would it not be cheaper for the :Nova Scotia farmer, even though he
bad to purchase the grain, to bring it there rather than to ship the lambs to
Ontario to be fattened?--A. Yes, one would think so, as the cost of transporta-
tion enters into it so heavily. I daresay the time will come when we will do
it. If the market situation can be worked out, I have no doubt we will attempt
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q. The cost of transportation of grain should not be so heavy on you
eastern farmers, because the western farmers are paying it half way for you.
--A. You will find that the cost of grain from Fort William is very great. 1
does not matter who pays it, you or the Nova Scotian, it is charged and mu,:t
be added to the cost. I suppose you add it to your cost.
Q. No, I sell my grain on a co-operative basis and if wheat is worth a
dollar at Fort William, the man at Edmonton or Calgary will only get 75 cents.
The same thing applies to your bran and shorts.--A. At the same time the price
we pay f.o.b. Fort William is your price plus the freight. We finally pay the
freight, no matter who pays it in the intermediate stages of the process of trans-
portation.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. You stated Dr. Cumming, that something should be done to encourage
the manufacture of Canadian wool into Canadian cloth?--A. Yes.
Q. Would you think the increase of the British preference would work again.st
that? What effect would it have on the sheep industry of your province?--A.
I think I will not attempt to answer that question.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Would you advocate the manufacture of textiles, in regard to the quantity
of wool in them, and whether it should be wool? A. I would think so.
Q. There has been a suspicion that a great deal of shoddy is used, and that
is not good for the sheep industry? A. I attended a conference in England, and
I remember that question being discussed by a great sheep importer--Mr. Mon-
sell, I think, was his name. The nmnufacturers in the East have said it would
be a good thing if there was a premium on the manufacture of pure wool as
compared with shoddy. Notwithstanding that, they are compelled to use a
certain amount of filler.
Q. The producer of wool Wants it. the manufacturer is willing for it and
the wearers of clothing want it, so why is shoddy used? A. I understand it
comes back to putting a cheap ready-made article in the stores.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is your wool manufacturer making " all wool" cloth? A. No. It is
optional. They do it sometimes.
Mr. MILNE: Some are.
[Mr. Melville Cumming.]
486 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Bg Mr. Sates:
Q. I think it would be a good thing if your manufacturers would mark their
goods " all wool " or as the case might be, and let the people know exactly what
they are buying. A. There are some phases of that question I am not qualified
to discuss. I could partly answer it, but I think my evidence would not be of
sufficient value. It might be worth nothing.
The CHAmM.N: I would think this Committee would deem your evidence
on any point worth noteing.--A. I think my evidence is important oa specific
agricultural que.tions but not on these side lines.
Bg Mr. Ntthcrland:
Q. With reference to the production of wool, do you think the present duty
of 30 per cent on wools, textiles, blankets and so forth, has a tendency to develop
the growing of svool in this country, when wool is imported from countries where
it can be grown without any care or attention, such as New Zealand; is it
pos.ible for the Canadian wool-grower to compete with those countries? I do
not want you to commit yourself on the tariff question, but is it not very difficult
for the wool grower in Canada, feeding his flocks for six months in the year, to
compete with free wool from New Zealand and Australia?---A. That is unques-
tionably true, but as to the implication, I am not qualified to answer.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. You mentioned the population of Nova Scotia not having kept pace with
the other provinces. Could Nova Scotia absorb any immigrants?--A. I am
glad that question is brought up. In the last decade we had a small increase of
population in Nova Scotia, nine or ten thousand I think. We could absorb a
certain amount of immigration if the conditions I have referred to could be
improved. One difficulty is our limited local market. I made the statement that
wc can help the dairies to markct up to 60 or 70 per cent of their dairy stuff.
but when it comes to cash crops we have a limited market. If we can improve
our industrial situation we could absorb a good many thousand settlers. As
things stand to-day we can absorb a small immigration but not a large one.
By Mr. Rob;mson:
Q. You are speaking now of the agricultural class?--A, kes. In the county
you represent, the fruit sections, we could absorb a very considerable immigra-
tion.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What is the price you pay for bran and shorts, doctor? A. Our present
price for bran is about $32. And for shorts about $34 or $35. That is subject
to a dollar or two correction one way or the other, and that is the retail price.
Q. You do not get it in car lots?--A. Oh, yes.
Q. What price would a car lot be?---A. I think that is a car lot quotation I
have given you now. It is very near it. It might be a dollar less.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. That would be Western bran and shorts?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Hammcll:
Q. You recommended the manufacture of " all wool " goods. But might
it not be fifty per cent shoddy and still be all wool, if the shoddy is wool?
Mr. Melville Curnminfi.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 487
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. gales:
Q. :No, I am taking the practice. An " all wool " serge is all wool?--A.
Yes, Western wool, grown in your province.
Mr. HAMMELL: There is a difference between all wool and all virgin wool.
It might be all wool and still fifty per cent shoddy.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is not that the same thing as the difference hctween " eggs," " fresh
eggs," " strictly fresh eggs," and " guaranteed strictly fresh eggs "?--A. No, that
point is well taken.
:Mr. HAMMELL: I know it is true and it is so understood.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. With regard to the feeding of bran and shorts, have you had any trouble
in connection with the impurities contained in those mill feeds? A. I was talk-
ing to one of our chemists the other day and he tells me that up to recently he
has found considerable impurities, e.pccially in middlings, but how much-I am
not- prepared to say.
Q. Have you at any time lost stock through the feeding of middlings?
A. We have not, and I have no authentic records. I have heard of things
but I have not been able to prove them.
The CHAmMn: We are very much obliged to you indeed, Dr. Cumming;
we have enjoyed your evidence; it is most valuable and we thank you.
CHARLES BRUCE SISSONS, called and sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. What is your occupation, sir?--A. I am professor of Ancient History
at Victoria College, University of Toronto.
Q. You have also an avocation, what is that?--A. I carry on a farm in the
vicinity of Newcastle, Ontario.
Q. What experience have you had as a farmer, for whom have you worked
as a hired man?--A. I was brougl.t up on a farm in Ontario, and afterwards
spent a good deal of my time in the summer on farms, my father's farm, and my
brother's farm, and I also had the pleasure of the friendship of both :Mr. Drury
and Mr. Good. I spent in one case two months and in another five months on
their farms in the summer, before I took up farming for myself.
Q. How large is your farm?-A. Fifty acres.
Q. How are you trying to make money on that farm?--A. I am running
it as a mixed fruit and dairy farm.
Q. How many cows do you keep?--A. Six at the present time, and two
heifers.
Q. Are you raising small fruits?--A. Nothing much in small fruits; we raise
them only for our own use. I have, however, quite a number of cherry trees
and some plum and pear trees.
Q. Will you give the Committee a statement of the agricultural situation
as far as you know it, indicate the weak points you see and make any sugges-
tions you can for betterment?-A. There are three things I can speak of from
my own personal experience. Perhaps you would suggest a way in which you
would like them taken up.
[Mr. C. B. Sisson.]
488 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. No, follow your OWl] course. A. Then perhaps I might first deal with
something which so far as I know has not yet been dealt with by this Commit-
tee; that is the vegetable canning industry.
My farm happens to be about a mile from a canning factory, where they
can tomatoes, corn and peas. This provides one of the cash crop Dr. Cure-
ruing speaks of. My neighbours and myself are much concerned about the situ-
ation of the canning industry. I cannot go into all the phases of the subiect,
but I have some facts which I think are significant.
I shall only deal with tomatoes, although I may mention corn incidentally.
The cost of producing tomatoes in 1920, according to a report got out by Pro-
fessor Leitch's Department, by hlr. liley and hlr. Michael, goes in great detail
into the figures. The average cost for that year on the farms inspected in the
Niagara district, as shown by Circular Number 33, Ontario Department of
Agriculture, Farm Economic Department, O.A.C., March, 1921, was 54-39 cents
per bushel.
In contrast to that, one of nay neighbours, a practical and able man in
raising tomatoes, having seen hit. Leitch's report has given me his cost of grow-
ing tomatoes. It is difficult to be quite accurate in statements of cost produc-
tion, and when a man says it costs him so many dollars and cents to produce
say a barrel of apples and work it out to a fraction of a cent, I simply raise
my eyebrows. I don't believe you can get it as close as that, but Mr. A. J.
Lycett, the man I speak of, who has produced a particularly good strain of
tomatoes by cross-fertilization, growing his own plants, has worked out his
cost on the cheap land which we have in Durham--is nothing like so expensive
as the Niagara land, which I believe averages about $500 an acre and is a little
high for this sort of work--estimates that he cannot possibly grow tomatoes
under 35 cents a bushel to make money.
Q. I-Iow did that compare with the results found by the experiments made
un,ter 51r. Leitch's direction?--A. Mr. Leitch's average was for the Niagara
district 54.37 cents.
Q. About 19 or 20 cents difference?---A. Yes, but Mr. Lycett did not take
into consideration certain things which Mr. Leitch's survey did; for instance,
the interest on horses and equipment, and I think he charged considerable less
for the rent of land. The difference was on land $28.25 an acre. That amounts
to very nearly 10 cents a bushel.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. How did the productivity of the lands in Durham and Niagara compare?
--A. I think we have excellent land for tomatoes in Durham. I don't think
there is any better land and Mr. Lycett grows very good crops. The only
difficulty is that we are a little more subject to frost and we have to allow a
little more for hazard in that respect. That is occasionally we cannot market
all our tomatoes.
By the Chairman:
Q. Leaving aside the cost of the land, the estilnates of cost established by
the survey of Professor Leitch and by the work of )-our friend Mr. Lycett
amounted roundly to not more then ten cents a bushel?--A. Something like that.
Now he estimated that if he sold his tomatoes at 35 cents a bushel which is what
was offered last year and this. year, he would actually lose money on the trans-
action, even on our land of moderate price.
Q. What do you pay for land down there?--A. The price of farms has
gone down, Mr. Chairnmn. I don't know what a farm would sell for now an
acre without the buildings. For example, one of my neighbours had quite a good
[lr. C. B. Sissons.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION 491
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Do you mean to say that your local grocer who gets tomatoes canned
in the local cannery cannot, get them directly from the cannery but they have
to go to Toronto and back again?---A. He cannot buy direct from the cannery.
If he wants to get that same brand of tomatoes he has to buv them from the
wholesaler in Toronto, so that the tonmtoes take a trip to Toronto and back
again. I do not say that he buys those tomatoes entirely; he may buy other
tomatoes as well.
I have a farm that i.s very. well adapted for growing this sort of thing,
and one year I grew tomatoes. I had a very good crop, but I simply refused
to grow tomatoes to try and make a little money that way. I wish to pay
my men good wages and nmintain a standard of living above that of the
Chinese coolie, and I am simply not going to grow tomatoes. I mention these
matters because I think it is something which this Committee can make use
oI'.
Q. Before you pass from that point, do you know whether there is any
organization among the canners to pay a certain price and only a certain price
to the growcr?--A. I think the price is uniform throughout Ontario.
Q. What grounds have w,u for that bclicf?--A. I consulted a man who
knows the situation throughout Ontario pretty well.
Bg Mr. McKay:
Q. Was he a conmmrciai tra'ellcr handling these goods? A. No, sir, he
did not handle these goods. He is a man who knows the agricultural situation,
and knows what they are offering the farmer.s.
I nmy say this also, that the price of corn has come down from $14 a ton
to $9 a ton. I am very certain it is $9 in Strathroy, because I have a letter from
certain growers protesting against this price, which is really a very low price,
and asking that some joint action be taken by the farmers and promising to
organize in order to meet this situation. I think the price is uniform through-
out Ontario, but it is a matter of information. As you may understand, this is
not my business; I have no time to go about visiting on all these things. I
know what I believe to be the truth.
By the Chairman:
Q. You believe it to be uniform throughout Ontario? A. Yes. Of course
there are companies that claim to be independent, but I believe they have an
organization in which they agree upon prices.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. You said something about Chinese coolie labour; are you in favour
of sending in Chinese goods or Japanese goods here, the products of cheap
labour? A. I was not dealing with that question.
Q. You see on the street Japanese thermos bottles advertised at 87 cents
each?--A. I think we can compete with the Chinese or any of the other
inferior races.
Q. You think you can?A. I think we can. I think it is a fallacy that
cheap labour necessarily can undersell dear labour, hat is, if we can get
our appliances, the raw materials of our industry, at reasonable prices. I
think we can compete. Of course it is just a matter of opinion.
By the Chairman:
Q. Do you now take up your next point, or have you finished with the
tomatoes?--A. I think perhaps I should say this, that I think a reasonable
price for tomatoes under present conditions would be at least fifty cents a
bushel, and if the price were sixty cents a bushel, as it is in the case of the
[Mr. C. B. Sissons.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 493
APPENDIX No. 3
think that under present arrangements the farmer is not getting as large a pro-
portion as he should be getting.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Do you know anything about the stock of the dairy companies at the
present time?---A. I took the trouble to inquire into that; perhaps I should not
have done so. I have this observation to make; if at the time I bought my farm
two years ago, instead of investing about $5,000, I will take it that that was
the amount in the dairy end of my farm, if I had written out a cheque to a broker
and bought City Dairy stock I would be worth to-day about $7,000 more than
I was then.
Q. In five years?---A. In two years. As it is, I have gone to the trouble
of raising milk, which is a very laborious kind of an occupation. As Peter
MeArthur once said, it is the damnable reiteration of it that counts. You have
to do it night and morning, every day in the year, and if you abate a particle
in your feeding, your herd at once shows it. It requires very great care indeed.
particularly when you have a herd of highly bred cattle, as I have. It is a
painstaking business, but I went to that trouble, and I suppose my herd is worth
perhaps 30 per cent less than it was then. I should not say that my farm
is worth any less, because I was dealing with a man who realized that the
depression was sure to come, and our price was arranged upon that basis; the
price I gave for the farm was what I would expect to get now. There is no
question about the decline of the dairy herd and the decline in the price of most
farms in that period, but the dairy companies are doing fairly well, and we
would like them to do well, but we would like to do a little better ourselves.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. You would have been worth about $7.0007--A. The stock is now selling
ex-dividend at about $140, but it was up to 150.
Q. Are you going to follow that up by a statement as to what an invest-
ment of $5,000 in a farm would mean?--A. With practically all farmers all
around me, I am losing money on any decent business basis.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Have you gone back to the time when it went down to 667--A. Well,
the stock has varied a good deal in recent years. I once did have a little money
in City Dairy, about twelve years ago. I paid about a hundred and a half.
Q. You were not very enthusiastic when it was 66? A. My idea was to go
into farming, for several reasons; it was not solely to make money. I have a
family of four boys, and I do not care to spend my summers at a summer resort.
I like farming, I like farming operations.
Q. Are you a sort of a joy farmer?---A. I would not care to say that. If
you will come home with me and follow me around, I will show you.
Q. I have followed it every, day for forty years. A. We would like to see
you come down some day, particularly in haying time.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. Two years ago there was an opportunity of investing either in a farm or
City Dairy $5,000? A. I was not considering that.
Q. But they were two industries vitally associated with each other; the one
cannot operate without the other?---A. Quite so.
Q. You have said that had you gone into one you would have made a profit
of $7,000; would you care to say what the financial results were from the
investment in the other; that is an interesting question, if you would like to
give us a statement about it, or if you could say that you invested $5,000 in a
dairy farm and that you are worth $1,000 more or $1,000 less; profits are what
[Mr. C. B. Sissons.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 499
APPENDIX No. 3
WZTNESS: There are two things necessary; one is a low temperature, the
other is moisture, and particularly in baskets which have slight openings in them.
[ can remember going into a cellar in hIr. Drury's house some years ago, and
going into some sort of a cavern which he had dug out of his cellar into a bank,
or it may have been on the level as a matter of fact. That was in July I should
think, and the apples in that place, which was damp and cool, were lust as nice
as if they had just come off the tree. Dampness is quite as important as cool-
ness. I have been trying to get my friends to take their apples when they come
in the fall, and to try and keep them in places where they will keep very well.
We have more individual houses than apartments in Toronto. Toronto is not as
large as Montreal, and has not as many apartment houses. Many of these
people in moderate circumstances have cellars in which they can keep their
apples fairly cool. We have people ordering as many as four barrels from us in
the fall. We use in our own family anywhere from ten to fifteen barrels a year.
By Mr. Elliot,:
Q. That is quite a lot of fruit.--A. In the good old days I have known
people put away more than that for a fair-sized family. There is no better
fruit than apples, and you can afford to eat a good many in the course of a day
without any serious results.
I think the apple market in Toronto has been very badly handled. I am
convinced myself that there is not one barrel of apples used in the City of
Toronto to-day where there could and should be ten. The people cannot get
apples.
Q. You mean they cannot afford to buy them?--A. They cannot depend
upon the apples they get. I remember very distinctly going down to the Orono
Fair this last fall when I was shipping those apples, and talking to one of my
neighbours he said "There is no use sending apples to Toronto, the market is
glutted." I said "That is nonsense, I sold so many barrels over the telephone the
other night. The commission men may be glutted, but the people have not any
more apples than they want."
If you will permit me to say so, I do not care to be over-critical, but I
think timse handling apples in Toronto have failed to handle the situation
properly. Perhaps we farmers have failed somewhat. I remember talking to
a friend of mine, a Mr. Caston, who asked me where he could get my apples
in Toronto. He said " I have not shipped apples to Toronto, I have not shipped
any there in ten years. You people do not want apples."
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. Have the farmers co-operative societies among themselves? A. They
have a few co-operative societies. The Niagara people are developing quite a
large co-operative concern now.
Q. We have in Nova Scotia the United Fruit Growers, and it is their object
to put their fruit on the market, and they will overlook those commission houses
if they do not handle the apples the way they should be handled; they will sell
direct to the dealers. A. One of the largest growers in my part of the country
had some conversation with me recently about developing the Toronto market;
he asked me about the possibility of our going in together, a few of us, to see
if we could not do something to get good apples to the people there. You may
go into the best shops there and see nothing better than a Domestic or a :No. 3.
By the Chairman:
Q. Won't you see a great deal of British Columbia fruit sold?--A. Yes,
there is a great deal of British Columbia fruit there.
[Mr. C. B. Sissons.]
3--32
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 501
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. No, at the time; you were asked about the export price, and you said
you knew a neighbour who got $4 a barrel f.o.b, his shipping point. What would
that cover, if those apples, instead of being shipped to England had been shipped
to Toronto?
By Mr. McKay :
Q. On the same date? A. I suppose the same, although for some reason or
other they do not find their way to Toronto.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Is there no denmnd for them there?---A. Of course there is a demand for
them, but it is an undeveloped demand.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. An undeveloped demand on the part of the farmer?---A. I would say it
was a lack of business ability on the part of the men handling the apples in
Toronto.
Q. But why does not the farmer go to work and sell them himself?--A.
I do not think it is the business of the farmer to sell apples in Toronto. The
farmer, if he does that, is taking over another man's work; I do not think it is
his own work.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Professor, here is an actual happening: I do not live in a fruit growing
district, although it produces a good many apples. A year ago there were
hundreds of barrels of apples rotted on the ground. They were not picked. It did
not pay to pick them. And in Toronto good, and very ordinary apples were sell-
ing for $6 and $7 a barrel. Can you offer any explanation of that?--A. I think
the fires I gave, sir, are to some extent an explanation of it. If I had sold
my apples in the ordinary way I would have got 85 cents a bushel for them,
and shipped them to Toronto. The express would have had to come from that.
That doer not pay me. I cannot do it.
Q. There is something wrong in our economic system of handling our pro-
ducts, particularly fruit.--A. I think so. What I would like to see us do is
to extend the operations of the co-operative concerns now being developed, and
perhaps then we will either have to sell apples ourselves in Toronto, or we may
find someone who will sell them in an efficient way; but I doubt very much if it
is the business of the farmer himself to sell apples directly to the consumer.
Q. He has an interest in those apples until they get to the consumer?A.
Yes, he has an interest in them. but I think perhaps someone other than him-
self should take over the distribution.
There was a time, Mr. Chairman, when a good many of us used to bring
apples into Toronto, a couple of barrels for our own use. They came in by
express until the express rates became prohibitive and then we got them by
freight. The freight rates are not very high, but to have a barrel of apples
delivered from the railway to the home costs anywhere from fifty cents to a
dollar a barrel, and the cartage companies leave the barrel on the sidewalk;
they will not take it any further, unless you pay something extra to get it taken
down into the cellar. I think that little toll of fifty cents to a dollar a barrel
for delivery from the train to the cellar has had something to do with bringing
to an end the process which at one time was very common, of getting apples
directly from the farm to the consumer. I think that rate is excessive for
delivering a package.
lMr. C. B.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 503
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Gales:
Q. How many apples will there be in a barrel?--A. That depends on the
size of the apples
Q. How many would there be like this red apple? These cost five cents
each in the cafeteria in this House, and thev bring an orange from California,
larger than this, and sell it for five cents. hat is wrong with the home grown
frmt?--A. Well, I told you what my friend Mr. Caston said; he said the people
in Toronto don't want apples. The difficulty has been that the trade has been
ruined, first by the number of poor apples put on the market and second by the
exactions of the middleman.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. They are not able to want apples when they have to pay five cents
apiece for thcm?--A. :No, they are not. I would not care to say how many
apples of that size there are in a barrel. If you weighed it, you could tell.
because a barrel of apples weighs from 135 to 155 pounds.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Would there bc a demand for fruits if they were put up in a small cheap
package, ia Toronto?--A. I think there would, yes.
Q. Whv do the growers not market their fruit in that shape?---A. Some of
them are doing so and selling directly. For example hIr. lyrie, of Oakville.
He sells his apples in small packages to very good advantage. I am trying to do
the same with mine, but I think I will .o back to the barrel with my customers
next year for the late apples. That is I have got these people to the point where
they -ill order two or three barrels a year and the late apples keep better in the
barrel, and I wish to give satisfaction.
By the Cairman:
Q. Have you anything else to tell us, Professor Sissons?---A. There are one
or two things suggested by what was said this morning.
The question was asked. How much taxes have increased? The taxes on
my farm have increased from $40.02 ten years ago to $116 at the present time.
They are nearly three times as great as they were then. The difference is made
up partly in the cost of roads but largely in school taxes. I am paying about
24 mills on the dollar school tax.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. This apple weighs a light four ounces. That is four to the pound and if
there are 135 pounds to the barrel there would be about 540 in a barrel, and at
five cents would be $27.00 a barrel. The consumer should certainly be educated
not to buy apples one by one. He should buy them in as large a package as
possible?--A. Yes, I quite agree with that.
There is another item, Mr. Chairman, in the cost of production. Anything
that can be done to reduce the cost of production to us is all to the good. I
have here in my hand a bill for bushel baskets which I purchased from a Bow-
manville firm. Forty dozen baskets at $3.00 a,basket, $120. The sMes tax
$5.40. Total $125.40.
I happened to be in an orchard in Pennsylvania last fall and I saw some of
these same baskets. They are American baskets, imported. The price there
was 17 cents, but they cost me 26 cents a basket. There is $2 a dozen or bout
$40 difference in the price.
I noticed that when Mr. Scripture, I think it was, was giving his evidence,
he said he had lost $60,000 in apples this year, and the producer was the person
[Mr. C. B. Sissons.|
504 SPECI AL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
out of whom he had to recover that. Assuming that he is buying apples next
year, he will offer a correspondingly low price. It would seem to me that there
is no reason why there should be a difference of 17 cents between the cost of
bushel baskets over there, and 26 cents, which is the cost here. It is the same
basket exactly. I notice that Mr. Scripture also predicted that apple barrels
were going to cost 85 cents nex'b year. They have evidently made up their mind
what the price is to be. I say that is much too high for apple barrels.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is there no competition in the sale of apple barrels?--A. Apple barrels
are difficult to transport. I think it was said that in Nova Scotia the price was
fifty cents. They say the price here is to be 85 cents. I paid 75 cents last year
and 80 the year before, and I think that is too large a proportion of the net
return from the apples.
The same thing applies all along the line, Mr. Chairman. Take spraying
material and spraying outfits. If a man is exporting all his apples, and if he
were manufacturing instead of farming, he would get a 99 per cent rebate on
the machinery that is used in the manufacture of commodities for export. Am
I not right?
Q. He would get a drawback on the raw material which had been imported
and went into the article, and then was shipped out again. I do not think he
would get a drawback on the machinery he used?--A. He does on the raw
material then and surely the barrel is part of our raw material.
By Mr. Robinson:
Q. If you were united in a co-operative society and bought on a large scale
or had your barrels made for yourselves would there not be a saving there?--
A. I think that is probably the only way of getting over the difficulty. But as
it is at the present time we are under difficulties by reason of high prices all
along the line.
Q. You have got to get together then?--A. I think we have got to do more
than that. I think in the case of things that are essential to us and to anything
we have to export, we ought to be able to claim the same privilege as the manu-
facturer does when he gets a rebate on his duties on his raw material.
Mr. Sws: I agree with you, sir, that is a good principle.
I don't know, Mr. Chairman, whether I have anything else. I have talked
with many of my neighbours about the situation and I would like to confirm
the statement already made to this Committee, that considering farming as a
commercial proposition, people are not making money in farming to-day. The
bank accounts of those who have deposits are being gradually depleted, and the
only kind of men who are keeping even are first, men who have some highly
specialized form af production, such as a man who produces particularly good
eggs or a special brand of chicken. Secondly a man who has not any interest
to pay on his investment and does not consider the interest on his investment
but simply lives on the farm that his father left him and gets along in that way.
By the Chairman: "
Q. He is not making any more money but he has his inheritance which has
come down to him?--A. And he does not know he is losing money.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Then it. is a rich man's game? A. No, it is not a game to which you
can apply the same principles as you apply to any other business. I think the
[Mr. C. B. Sissons.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 505
APPENDIX No. 3
thing we ought to try to do is to put farming on the same basis as any other
business in this country, if it is at all possible to do so, and I do not see why
it is not possible.
By the Chairman:
Q. There was a witness the other day--I will not give you his name for
the moment--who made this statement: On page 401 the witness was asked:-
" Q. Purely as a commercial proposition, do you think farming could
be made a success in the West?--A. As a commercial proposition right
now?
Q. Yes.---A. No.
By the Chairman,:
Q. May I ask you this question, hlr. Blank? Has farming from the
beginning in Canada, as far as your information goes, ever been for any
long period of time a business success on a commercial basis?---A. _No, I
would not say that it had. I think there is a big change. We have come
to a big change in our whole agricultural policy. Every country--it is
an economic phase--goes through a certain period of development and
exploitation, then a consolidation, and I think we have passed through
development and exploitation and are coming to that era when we must
cpnsolidate and put farming on a business basis. We have not done that.
It has been all a question of production."
I will be very glad if you will tell us whether you think that is a true
representation of conditions vhich exist in Canada in general to-day. A. Speak-
ing offhand, I should say that the number of farmers who are making or have
made at the same time interest on their investment and reasonable wages for
themselves--and that would be my definition of farming on a commercial
basis--is and has been extremely small.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. For what length of time?---A. Ever since I can remember, sir.
By the Chairman:
Q. Therefore, Professor Sissons, you would not take issue with the state-
ment as given by this previous witness?---A. :Not at all. I think if you define
what you mean by " commercial basis." that is perfectly true.
Q. I might say, so as to clear up the matter, that we have been discussing
with this witness before the Committee calculations of the cost of growing a
certain product, allowing so much for interest on the land, so much per hour
for labour of a horse and for a man, in order to establish a certain cost per
bushel, on a business basis, and it was in connection with those calculations that
the witness made the reply.--A. I would go so far as to say this, Mr. Chair-
man, that most of my neighbours would be better off to-day if instead of trying
to farm at all they could rent their places at even a moderate rental--and the
amount of rental is never in our section really interest on the investment and
never has been--and quit farming and go to work for the Government, either
on the road or in the Forestry Nursery which we are starting--in fact, some of
them are doing that same thing, and I have no doubt at the end of the year they
will be further ahead than those of us who undertake to continue in the interest-
ing but rather unfruitful occupation of farming.
Mr. SLs: Not unfruitful, unremunerative.
[Mr. C. B. Sissons.l
512 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Will you explain it, please?---A. Well, his family provides a large part
of the labour, and whatever rate per hour you may give, it is a revenue to him.
A manufacturer hires all his labour, his labour cost is a complete outgo of hard
cold cash, he has to go down into his pocket and pay it.
By the Chairman:
Q. That is the reason why a large farmer engaging a lot of hired help may
make a dismal failure of the operation, while his neighbours who are farming
their own land with the help of their families and the occasional help of a hired
man may make a fairly decent living?--A. Yes; that is the reason why we only
have half the picture of farming when we have the cost per bushel or the cost
per ton. To get any intelligent idea of the economic part, we must know what
part of those costs is actual cost that the farmer has to pay out of his pocket
and what after all are revenues out of which he can live.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Is that an argument for small farms?--A, lot too small. It is an
arment against enormously large farms.
By the Chairman:
Q. It is an argument against farms being carried on on the scale of the
modem industrial establishment?--A. Yes. The results from the accounting
or the business statement of a farm on a strictly business basis may prove the
farm to be unprofitable. The operator of that farm may have got a reasonably
decent living, perhaps better than in any other enterprise in which he could work.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. The result of your figures shows that at no time could a farmer hope to
make any more than a living, under present conditions?--A. Almost under any
conditions, you might say. Farming needs abundant land, and land is an
economic factor different from anything else we have in the world; it is the most
desirable thing we have in the world, and people always pay too much for it.
I would like to make this statement; if by some miracle the price of wheat was
$5 a bushel, in two years there would be just as many people raising it at a loss as
now at $1 a bushel. The immediate effect would be to shove up the price of
land, and it would be up so high that those who had land would want to retire
and the man who would buy it would be in the same position as the man who
raises wheat at $1 per bushel.
By the Chairman:
Q. That is to say, the increase in the land value would accrue to the benefit
of the immediate owner?---A. It would accrue to the benefit of the then owner.
Q. And anyone going into the market to buy after the rise in price had
occurred would have to pay to a former owner the unearned increment which
had arisen? A.. Yes.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would you extend that a little farther; would you say it would increase
the cost of production as well?--A. There would be an immediate demand for
machinery which would save labour.
By the Chairman:
Q. I would imagine that a gentleman like yourself, a deep student of rural
economics, might more or less agree with the economic philosophy of Henry
George?--A. Yes.
[Mr. ,rchibald Leitch_|
514 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Mr. CALl)WELL: That is covering a ten year period. If you take the last
three years that is probably true because the merchants bought their stocks
when prices were very high.
Mr. McK:e: It might be as well at this time to take a relative view and
not confine our investigation to one line.
By the Chairman:
Q. Perhaps the witness will give his view on that.--A. I think the know-
ledge that we need more than anything else in agriculture in this country is to
know what lmppcns to our products from the time they leave our hands until
the consumer buys them over retail counter. We are the only people engaged
in any industry in the world who govern their business by the one actuating
impulse, " What can I produce." Every other business in the world that pro-
duces or handles anything, builds on: " What can I sell." Professor Sissons
brought this up. I cannot agree with Professor Sissons when he says it is not
desirable for the farmers to participate in the marketing of their products. I
am absolutely convinced that they should participate. The only solution to
this difficulty of the wide spread between the price the farmer receives and the
price the consumer pays, is to have the farmer realize that he must produce the
things that are demanded; give people what they want to buy; not decide for
them what the producer thinks they ought to have; give them the things they
want to buy in the quantity that they can buy, and have that principle rule all
their productive operations. That is no simple matter, but it must be done.
We have reached the point in production of farm products where we have diffi-
culty in finding profitable purchasers for the stuff we have to sell. So that is
one thing we must realize, that we must reorganize our business on the basis
of what we can sell. To have that properly decided for the farmers as a class
and as individuals, they will have to participate in the business of distribution
or marketing. :Now rapidly as American agriculture and American agricultural
production has developed, there has been someone to take distribution off our
hands, certainly since 1893, and farmers have got into the habit of thinking
that no matter what they have to produce there will be someone to buy it, and
so we have left that work of handling to someone else.
Inevitably, when any man enters in as a middleman, not a direct represen-
tative of the producer, but a middleman, acting for himself as a distributor, the
man who has to make the guess of what he can sell, and pay the farmer what
he can, that introduces an element of speculation that is absolutely necessary
in the middleman's busincss, and the only way you can avoid the evils of
speculation which have evil reactions on the consumer and producer, is to have
the producer know what the consumer can buy, and distribute the goods by
himself or his agents. :No miracle will work that out; it will take years; but
we may as well decide now to have that done, and see that all proper steps are
taken by all such agencies as this Committee, and our Government depart-
ments, to put before the people the real question of what happens to commodi-
ties in the time between when they are produced and the consumer gets them.
That is a thing that farmers know nothing about, and we must build our new
system on the basis of complete knowledge.
Mr. McK.v: I am glad I asked that question.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. That brings up the question of co-operative markets?--A. Yes.
Q. Would you say the ills of 85 per cent of the commercial men in the cities,
as well as the producers of farm produce, are due to the high cost of transporta-
tion and to faulty methods of distribution? A. :No, I could not say that. The
[Mr. Archibald Leich.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 519
APPENDIX No. 3
Mr. CALDWELL: That is part of the cost, Mr. Sales; in the east it is placed
under different heads. It possibly costs us just as much as it does the western
people.
Mr. McKAY: In threshing in the west, I believe Mr. Sales can answer this,
when a thresher comes along with his machine do all the farmers join and help
you voluntarily, free labour?
Mr. SALES: There are different methods.
Mr. McKAY: Here it is voluntary help, co-operation.
Mr. SALES: We do that sometimes, a farmer will have a small machine and
two or three neighbours will change work, and each will keep track of his num-
ber of days and settle up at the finish. Then there are other methods; some
machines take a big gang, probably twelve teams, and they travel right along
and feed the men themselves in a caboose or cook-car, and carry the whole
outfit together. There are different methods. We have many small machines
now which belong to two or three farmers co-operatively, and they work
together, so there is no hard and fast rule in speaking of threshing costs in the
West.
Mr. VILNE: In our part, the neighbours do come and are credited with the
current wage.
Mr. McKAY: The farmer is?
Mr. hIILNE: Yes; supposing I have an outfit, and you come and help me
to thresh, you get your $5 or $6 a day whichever the current charge is, the
same as if you were outside help. I may go out to help you, but it is kept track
of also.
Mr. HAMIELL: YOU are not so particular about half a day or a day?
Mr. MtsE: That depends a great deal on the shortage of labour.
The CHAIrMAn: NOW, have we arrived at Exhibit 53, gentlemen?
The WITNESS: The rest of the exhibits now, except page 9, deal with live
stock and live stock markets. I have covered all the common crops in Exhibits
51 and 52. This is now Exhibit 53. This deals with the poultry business, on
mixed farms. Now, as poultry is conducted on our mixed farms, it is the most
profitable side-line we have, but it is a peculiar enterprise in that it cannot be
very much extended from the size it is carried on now without cutting the
profits down very materially. As a small farmer's flock, it is a wonderfully
profitable proposition, but when it is extended to a commercial poultry plant,
on the farm, you begin to introduce elements that practically wipe out these
profits. I did not make this up to date, because the poultry business has
changed very little from these prices, and costs have remained fairly uniform
during all this time.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Leitch, what you receive for eggs down in Ontario,
say now at this time of the year? A. I could not just tell you now; eggs
have been dropping these last ten days; the price is down to 25 or 30 cents now.
By the Chairman:
Q. That is what the farmer gets? -A. Yes.
By Mr. Sale.:
Q. And in the West we get 15 cents.---A. Yes. Since it is impossible in
the poultry business to separate egg production from the production of meat, we
have not been able to make a separation that suited us, because of the revenue
[Mr. Archib.ld Laiteh.]
524 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Of course, you have credited something for the calves?--A. Yes, that is
for calves sold.
Q. That is to say, you say the natural increase of the herd will offset the
depreciation?--A. Yes, and oftentimes more than offset the appreciation in the
event of a farmer raising some odd heifers more than he needs, and he will sell
them at two or three years of age.
Q. To sum up, the cost of marketing is one of the costs that has to be taken
into consideration?--A. Yes.
Q. That cost of marketing was how much on the seventeen farms?--
A. $1.96.
Q. And on an average prices obtained were what? A. $1.70. That loss is
a little more than the interest.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Then we arrive at this, Professor, to sum it up, as our Chairman says,
that if a man was fortunate enough to have a farm left him free of rent and
was content to work at 22 cents per hour, he could lust about break even?--
A. Yes, under present conditions.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is that just a fair way of putting it, Professor Leitch? What about the
income that he would get from the farm grown feed--A. He would get whatever
profits he may have made in growing it, at these farm market prices.
Q. I mean to say, in Mr. Sales' case, if a man has inherited his farm, he
would do a little better than get his wages, would he not, on your figures?--
A. Under present circumstances, that is about all he would get, because he is
really entitled to the farm market price for his home grown feed, as if he had
elected to sell it. Then, if a number of dairy farmers had elected to sell their
feed at the same time, it would have depressed the price of course, of these
crops, and te farm market price would have been lowered.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. He could not go and sell that produce, if by doing so he would allow the
farm to deteriorate? A. :No. Then, if he went out of the dairy business, he
would not earn that 22 cents per hour for about 1,000 hours per year.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. But he would have to buy commercial fertilizer?---A. Yes.
Q. I am interested and disappointed, because our Department of Agri-
culture told us last fall, when we wanted to assist our potato growers, that if
we had been growing stock instead of potatoes we would have been rich. We
almost believed it, too, so I am rather disappointed because I believed there was
more money in stock than in potatoes.---A. Well, you must remember of course
that milk prices are deflating a little faster than milk production.
By the Chairman:
Q. What is that?--A. Milk prices are. This does not tell you over a term
of years.
Mr. CALDWELL: There is another thing; we do not have a market for our,
milk. We have no cheese factories or creameries, we have to make it into
butter on the farm.
[1. Archibald Leitch.]
528
PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Will you go on to the next point, page 5, which will be Exhibit No. 55.
(Page 5 of statement, headed "Cost of Cheese Factory Milk" marked
EXHIBIT NO. 55
COST OF CHEESE FACTORY MILK
4,500-lb. Cows
Exhibit No. 55.)
Cost per
100 lbs. milk
........... 0-102
0.150
0-054
... 0-135
0.770
............... 0.017
.................. 0-020
Purchased feed ..................................
IIired labour and miscellaneous cash ...................
Cash cost oI pasture land ............................
Depreciation in cows, buildings and equipment ...........
Total cash cost .............
Farm grown feed .......................
Use of farm horses .......................
Use of equipment .......................
Total cost contributed by farm ..............
0-441
0-807
0-244
0-112
Farm and family labour at 20c ..............................................................
Interest on ows, buildings, equipment and pasture land .....................................
Total gross cost ............................................................... 1-604
Less credits (manure and calves) ............................................... 0.151
Whey .......................................................................... 0- 090
0.241
Net cost of production ..................................................... Percwt.$ 1-36
Q. Now take the cost of cheese factory milk.---A. This is for the past year,
that is, the year just ended. These figures I do not want you to accept as abso-
lutely accurate, because they are to a large extent made up from what know-
ledge we had of the amount of feed and the amount of labour necessary in the
production of cheese factory milk, the cows averaging about 4,500 pounds of
milk, but having a lot of information on the value of cows in the cheese factory
districts, the value of land in those districts and the labour used, we were able
to put present day valuations upon them, and they are reported to you under
the same method as the figures in the previous exhibit. The annual cost per
cow in cheese factory districts is much lower than the cost of keeping and main-
taining a milk cow in districts where they keep them the year round. Most
of our cheese factory milk is produced from the latter part of March until the
middle of November, a period of seven or seven and a half months. The cows
are usually dried up and remain dry on a maintenance ration during the winter.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Does that include the cost of maintaining the cow during her entire
period? A. Yes, the entire year. Among dairymen who produce milk the y.ear
round, since the yield is lower, it makes a difference. In the cheese factory
districts it is practically the same as the cash cost of milk; in districts where
they produce milk the year round, practically 43 in one case and 44 in another,
although the costs per cow are less, the yield per cow is less, and the division of
the 4,500 into the cost per cow makes the cost per hundred pounds for cash; the
total cash cost is 44 cents, and in the case of the other dairymen who produce
the year round it is 42 cents, but it is in the farm grown feed, and a big saving
is made in the interest on the investment. These cows are fed usually a little
silage, hay and straw; no grain in the winter time, consequently the cost per cow
is very low.
Without going into details, we have the same items of expense as we have
in the other. The item of expense here is $1.36 per hundred.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 535
APPENDIX No. 3
Mr. LEITCH: Are you giving last year's figures?
Mr. C.MXG: For 1922.
Mr. LEITCH: This is for the crop year of 1921. A comparatively low yield
".*or that district of 38 barrels. It is not a fair comparison, one year with another.
The only real value of this table for present day conditions is that the items of
expense per acre give you an idea, since a lot of those do not vary very much.
hlr. CALDWELL: Your commercial fertilizer would be higher in 1921 than
in 19227--A. Yes, I know from further investigation down on these same farms
that they had a yield considerably over that so that if their cost per acre did
not go up much it would show a cost per barrel considerably less that that.
By the Chairman:
Q. Would the cost there approximate with :New Brunswick? A. Yes, they
claim somewhere around 48.49 barrels per acre. Unless the cost of picking and
packing went up the cost would come down to somewhere about $2.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Do you agree with Professor Cumming as to fertilizers, containers and
all the things used in the production, being free of sales tax? A. I think so.
In view of the situation of agriculture I would say that it is putting a rather
undue burden on an important industry.
Q. And would you think that should apply to twine, binders, wagons, and
other things which we all have to use?--A. You want my personal opinion?
Q. Yes, I would like your personal opinion. The country is in a desperate
plight and we want to find a remedy.--A. I think the sales tax should be taken
off all the instruments of production in our basic industries.
By M;'. l[cKay:
Q. But every man thinks his is a basic industry. What is basic? A. I
mean agriculture, lumbering and mining.
By lllr. Chairm,:
Q. And fishing? .k. If I were living in the Maritimes, I would say fishing.
Q. There are four, lumbering, mining, agriculture and fishing.
Mr. CALDWELL: I presume, Mr. Chairman, it would not be fair to extend
that question to hIr. Leitch, to include the tariff.
The CHAn.: There is no reason why we should not have the advantage
of his views.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Would you care to give us your opinion on the tariff on the tools of
production? Do not answer unless you like.
hIr. ShLES: Do not put the professor in danger of losing his position.
Q. I don't think there is much danger of that for anything I may say here,
because my own views on the tariff are pretty well known amongst those for
whom I work.
Mr. CALDWELL: I think the evidence we have had will pretty well settle
that question.
The CHAParrAl: We will be glad to have his views.
hir. CALDWELL: If he cares to give them. We do not want to urge him.
A. The biggest burden under which agriculture is labouring to-day--I said
last week, was freight rates, but I did not intend to mention the tariff is the
duty on the implements and machinery of production. Now I do not believe
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 537
APPENDIX No. 3
number of years, and the farmers generally are doing all their cultivation and
work with two-horse machines.
Q. Cultivating two rows instead of one?--A. Yes, and in Dufferin county,
since the silo is just becoming general now, they have not the same skill in
handling the crop, and they devote more man labour, they do a little more
hoeing and more scuffling with a one-horse cultivator.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Perhaps they do not cross it?---A. No, they do not plant in regular hills.
They find they can keep it almost equally clean and get a little higher tonnage
by planting it in drills. In the hill corn they get more maturity of the corn,
better maturity of the ears; but they get sufficient maturity in Oxford in drills
and so they do in Dufferin.
Q. It is easier to harvest?--A. Yes, you can cut it more easily with the
binder.
By Mr. Forrester:
Q. Corn is essentially a sun crop?--A. Yes.
Q. And the hill therefore is bcttcr?--A. Yes, in all districts where they
grow corn for the grain they invariably plant it in hills. But when they grow it
for silage they plant it in drills.
Q. Is there not a great difference in the value of the ton between the hill
and the row?---A. :No, not if they get sufficient maturity for silage purposes in
the drill.
The CmM: But if they are growing it for the grain, then it is different?
--A. Yes, then it is planted in hills. In neither of these districts will corn marine
for grain purposes every year, but in both districts it will mature sufficiently
for good silage.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Man labour to produce a 200 pound hog in Dufferin was 12.2, and 9.1
in Oxford. How do you account for that?--A. The Oxford Count)" farmer is a
little better hog man and he gets them up to 200 pounds weight a month or
five weeks earlier, and some of those farms ha(l considerable milk and that
shoved them along.
By the Chairman:
Q. What race of men are the farmers in Oxford?--A. South of the Thames
River there are I suppose Englishmen predominating, and north of the Thames,
Scotch.
Mr. HMu.: I might also say that south of the river is the poorer part
of the county.
By the Chai.rman:
Q. Apparently it takes longer to look after the Dufferin hens than the
Oxford hens. What is the reason?---A. The difference is very slight. It is 289.5
hours per 100 hens in one case and 267 in the other. The flocks were a little larger
in Oxford County, that makes the difference.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. When you get into the cows it turns around?--A. Oxford is a dairy
district and the dairy cow requires more attention.
Q. And in Dufferin do they let the calves suck the cows?--A. Some of them
do, and some milk their cows and separate the milk and ship the cream.
[Mr. Archibald Leitch.]
538 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. I have a question back on pages 4 and 5 with regard to milk production.
Exhibits 54 and 55. I noticed on one occasion that the cost of producing milk
per 100 pounds is $1.70. That is where the dairy business is carried on during the
whole year?--A. Yes.
Q. In the other case it is $1.36 where the summer months alone are used.
What is there in these two statements to induce people to milk cows the year
round when it can be produced cheaper during the summer months and there
is more profit in it as well?--A. But it does not bring him in as many dollars per
year.
Q. Yes but he does not 'ant to work for iothing.--A. No, but take this
item of farm and family labour; in the one case there is 24 cents a hundred
pounds coming in to the farmer for 4.500 pounds of milk. That is something
around $11 a cow: In the other case there is 30 cents an hour coming in for
6,600 pounds of milk; $20 a cow. There is the opportunity for a man making $9
more-by using labour that he would have no market for during the winter
months. That is just one item.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Are you intending to carry on this work, sir? A. Yes, we set out with
a definite programme to investigate every common type of farming in Ontario.
Q. I think the best move you could make. Professor, would be to com-
municate with all the other agricultural colleges in the Dominion and try to get
a uniform system established in every province of the Dominion.--A. The other
provinces, except British Columbia, have not really made any attenmpt along
this line. British Columbia is following our original plan; they are lust making
general investigations of farming; but this class of work is detailed cost-accounts
on selected farm to represent typical farms for that particular type of farming.
Q. Don't you think it would be good for the county representatives, as they
call them in the States, to carry on this work?--A..No, the county representative
with their other activities cannot do this work. It requires a .specially trained
man. We have now 80 farms under cost accounting in the province, including
four different types of farms, and it takes a staff of six men to carry that on.
Q. What is the cost then of carrying on this work?--A. About $16,000 a
year. That is without allocating any part of my salary to it.
Q. What is the effect on these farmers when they find what the result of
their work is, that they have been working at a loss? When it dawns on them,
does it induce them to change their methods?--A. Thev knew they were working
at a loss before we had these figures out. We probablv confirmed some of their
notes.
Q. You point out where their loss occurs?--A. Yes.
Q. What is the effect?--A. We find some men, as you would naturally
expect, will not make any change. They will co-operate with you and give yo'.
all the help you want, but it does not have any effect on them. Then you have
the opposite to that; there are men who study these things, and try to see where
their own farms are weak as compared with the average farms or best farms,
and see where they can cut doom their cost.
Q. But you thinlc the general effect is good?--A. Oh, yes, undoubtedly. I
might sa.v tlat one effect of our work in the county of Oxford, where we have
been orking now for about four years, was to improve the cattle. The thing
that came out most strongly in our first year's investigation, which was very
roughly conducted, was that the greatest need in that dairy district was better
bulls, better stock, and the result was that two years ago the breeders of pure
[Mr Archibald Leitch.]
542 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
was under discussion I did not think we should be deprived of the value of that
information. I think I will ask him to come next week. Now, someone gave
me this man's name, Mr. Arnott. It may have been ]Ir. Hudson. I am not
sure.
hlr.
hich is
The
CALDWELL: The mm I spoke of is Secretary of the Farm Loans Board,
separate from the Rural Credits.
CI-tAIRMA:N: We will ask both, if you like.
Mr. GARDINER: I think Mr. Chairlnan, you will find you have two different
systems there, the Farm Loans Board and the R.ural Credits.
The CHmL,-: We had bctter have one from each. Mr. John Arnott,
Federated Rural Credit Board, Manitoba, and Mr. Fowler.
Mr. CALWLL: Mr. Fowler is Secretary of the Farm Loans Board.
Thc CHAIRMAN: Those gentlemen who are at a distance, it. seems to me I
had bctter wire to-morrow. Someone gave me his name and said he knew a
great deal about this matter.
The Chairman advised the Committee that Mr. N. G. Guthrie, barrister
and solicitor of this city, had brought to his attention a letter written by him
to Mr. L. A. W. Doherty, in which he complained of certain inaccuracies which
he stated had appeared in his evidence taken on Thursday, March 15th, 1923.
The Chairman reported that he had carefully gone over Mr. Doherty's evidence
with this gentleman's letter, and had replied to him to the effect that certain of
his objections were not, in the Chairman's opinion, well founded, but that
certain of them gave ground for asking that certain changes be made. The
Chairman then read to the Committee the following extracts from his letter
to Mr. Doherty: " I admit that your evidence on the question of cattle on page
163 has not been well taken and that you have reasonable cause for complaint
in the way your answer has been taken down. The question and answer as
appearing on page 163 are as follows:-
By Mr. Sales:
"Q. Cattle? A. We are not cattle carriers. Two years ago when we
were in the Liverpool service we had some cattle on our ships, and we had
a very sad experience and lost a lot of money. Since that on our London
service, cattle is not being carried to London, and we have not been in the cattle
service."
' You say that the latter part of your answer should be amended to read as
follows:'
"Since then we have operated this service to London only and cattle
have not been carried to London. We have not been in the cattle business."
'I will be glad to have an entry made in the minutes at the earliest pos-
sible date, making this correction, although I think that if the context is read,
your answer is fairly clear.'
'As regards the question by Mr. Caldwell, which reads as follows in the
report:
" How did you make your loss on cattle carried?A. This way: a broker
would come to us and say 'we have 200 or 300 head of cattle for Liverpool'
and we would say we do not know that we want to take cattle, because of
the expense of fitting up; it costs so much money; we have to place ventilators
in and prepare spaces, and if it is for one voyage it does not pay us.'"
'You state that there should be added to that answer words to this effect:
"cattle exporters when negotiating would always have the impression that
business was looking better, that we could count for further shipments in order
to justify for the cost of fitting, but after carrying out the first shipment no
[Mr. Melville Cumming.]
548 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
taking it in at the door until it is sold and we have the returns from it. What
we have left is our profit or loss on our spread.
Q. Tell me, what do your bottles cost you?-A. Our depreciation on bottles
last year I think was about three-quarters of a cent per gallon. It cost us that
last year. I think I have that. Bottle loss, about three-quarters of a cent per
gallon sold. For every gallon of milk we sell, we have three-fourths of a cent
loss in bottles. That is we take care of our bottles by writing off all the bottles
we buy in the year.
By the Chairman:
Q. You nmke it really a current expense and not an item of capital expendi-
ture?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the life of a milk bottlc?--A. The life is not very long. We
could figure that back I suppose, but we have not got it.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many bottles have you?--A. That is a hard question to answer,
to know ]ut how many we own to-day. We have the bottles in the plant
and on the waggons, but we don't know how many the customers have in their
houses. In the month of hIay we get back a carload of bottles that maybe
the people have kept preserves in all winter. So we don't know how many
bottles we own; all we know is what it costs us in a year.
Bg Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Do you not have any check on the customers?---A. No, you cannot
go into a customer's cellar. But we pay a commission to our drivers. They are
paid by a commission on the business they do, and we pay them on the empty
bottles returned. If a man takes out a hundred quarts of milk and only returns
bottles for 90 quarts, he only gets 90 cents for selling, but if he fetches back
100 he gets a dollar. In that way we have cut our depreciation in bottles
something like $2,700 under the year before in our little business. That is our
saving in bottles from one year to the other. Before that we paid on the full
number of bottles sold and the driver had nothing more than his conscience
to answer whether he picked up a bottle he saw on the street.
By the Chairman:
Q. He had no material incentive?--A. No. we find that to-day we get our
bottles back a great deal better.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Have you bad debts?---A. Yes, we do, but not a great deal. We sell
practically for cash.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. This bottle proposition strikes me as very expensive. You cut down
the loss by $2,7007--A. Yes. But I am only managing this business last year
and I have not got our whole loss. I know our bottle loss last year was $2,000
and something less than the year before.
Q. Can you tell us what it was the year before?---A. It would be a little
more, but last year our actual loss on bottles was three-fourths of a cent for
every gallon of milk we .sold. That is we would pay almost a cent for every
gallon of milk sold.
Q. Then there is considerable money invested in these bottles that must
go into the 15-217--A. No.
LMr. F.ow,'r -enry.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 549
APPENDIX No. 3
By the Chairman:
Q. :No, they do not do that. You explained that you regard the bottles
lust the same as the hay and oats for the horses? A. Yes, they are gone;
wiped out.
Q. You charge it against the operating cost.7---A. Yes.
Mr. S.XLES: But he starts with a thousand and if he loses two hundred
in a year he charges that up. What about the interest on the investment in
the thousand?
The CAmMAN : He follows a most conservative and, I think, wise system of
book-keeping by charging this not to capital but as a current expense. I think
that is very sound. Just the same as I charge stationery in my law office as a
current expense, although I have a certain amount on hand; I do not charge.
the oce with any interest on capital; it is not regarded as a capital investment
in plant; it is regarded as something that has to be replaced so often that it
can be considered a current expense.
Mr. SALES: But in the first year, buying the first large quantity of bottles
and cans and charging it to current expense, that shows a loss. If you start
that way the system is correct, but not unless.
Mr. GARDR: There is the necessity in the business for a large number
of bottles in the first year and if it is charged to a current expense in that year,
it would show a tremendous loss.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. There is no pronounced expansion in one year?--A. :No, supposing our
trade went up three or four hundred gallons, we don't figure on the bottles,
we have to take care of that trade. Last year our loss in bottles was $7,700
and some odd. We lust wiped that out as if it was hay and oats.
Q. You have told us your spread is 4.40? A. Yes.
Q. The cost of getting it from the farmer was $1.757 A. Yes.
Q. Pasteurization and distribution expenses 15-217 A. Yes.
Q. The first one, the spread should have been 17-63. Figuring that out
your expenses would be 3-91 per quart as compared with 4.40, leaving a balance
of -49 which would be your profit.7---A. You are pretty close; in our audit we
show -87 profit.
By the Chairman:
Q. :Not quite a cent a quart profit?--A. :No, that is on the gallon. It i
not quite a cent a gallon.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many gallons a day do you handle, Mr. Henry, on the average';
A. About 3200.
Q. That is $32 a day practically, all the year round.
By the Chairman:
Q. You deliver twice on Saturday and not on Sunday? A. Yes, twice on
Saturday.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is your capital invested in this by your shareholders?--A. Mainly b)
the farmers.
Q. How much capital have you A. In the milk business $225,000.
Q. Why do you say in the milk business? A. Because we run a buttc
business and an ice cream business as well and we keep the three apart.
[Mr. Bower Henry.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITION$ 551
APPENDIX No. 3
lways have enough of what we call overplus milk to supply our trade with
cream.
Q. What is overplus milk? A. What we call overplus milk is milk we get
from the farmer over and above what takes care of our milk trade.
I will give you an idea of how it is handled in Ottawa. There is a great
talk sometimes about what is done with overplus milk. In Ottawa, both of us,
Mr. Bingham and myself, we strike an average for October, November and De-
cember. That is the three months that we take our average. If you are a
milk producer you strike your average in those three months for what your
milk market is for the rest of the year. For the simple reason that those are
the three months that are the hardest to produce milk. You want lust as
much milk for those three months as any others, and as it is harder to put up
milk in those months, there are farmers that vill give you no milk at all in
those months and come along and flood you in the other months. So we strike
an average and say, If you give us fifty gallons in those three months, you will
get your full price for ifty gallons for the rest of the year, and over and above
what yu put up we pay you the highest price, butter fat test, for anything over
that.
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q. So you take all a man will produce in the symmer time, but you pay
him for fifty gtllons, or whatever he brings in in those three months, the price
then fixed? A. Yes, we will fetch all he brings and supply him with cans, butter
or ice cream.
By tte Chairman:
Q. In other words you establish your supply on the basis of the lowest
months of the year as far as supply is concerned?--A. Yes.
Q. Then you say to the farmer, I will take from you every month and pay
you a contract price for the amount which you will undertake to give me in
those three nmnths in which the supply is scarce, and over and above that I will
take everything you send but I do not undertake to pay you that high price for
it. but I will give you the prevailing price for that milk established on a butter
fat basis.--A. Yes, sir, that is right.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. May I suggest then, Mr. Chairman, that as we are dealing with the cost
to the consumer I would certainly like to know a little about the butter business
and the ice cream business, and to give hlr. Henry a chance to complete his
fioares.--A. Yes, I am quite willing to do that.
Q. And in about ten days from now we will be ready for you again. Ice
cream is very interesting to the farmer who sells his milk and gets a very little
bit of ice cream for ten cents.---A. I will be pleased to go into that. I am a
farmer myself and our company is a Producers' Association, practically con-
trolled and run by the farmers.
Q. We will not go into ice cream this morning, but I will be glad if you
will come prepared to deal with it.---A. The way your letter read, it was the
milk business entirely, and I went to some trouble to get the milk business by
itself.
Bg the Chairman:
Q. We are glad to have had that, sir, because there are many places in the
country, I would imagine, where the people do not manufacture ice cream. I
doubt if the Guaranteed Pure Milk in Montreal manufacture ice cream, although
one company does, so it is valuable to have these figures separately and we
thank you for doing it. One further question, Mr. Henry, do you keep books of
[Mr. Bower TTenz, y.]
AGR1CULT]RAL CONDITIONS 553
APPENDIX No. 3
figures are all based on 1922. For .January, February, March and April we
pai,1 82.20 per eight allon can. For ]Iay, June, July, August and September,
81.75 per can. For October, November and December $1.95.
Q. So you have three prices?--A. No. sir, the latter part of the winter of
1921 and 1922, was in 1922, and the early part of 1923 is included in 1922. Our
period of fixing prices is practically from the 1st of May until the end of
September and from the 1st of October until April 30th. Two periods.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. Do you. pay for the eight gallon can irrespective of the butter fat?--A.
Yes, irrespective of the fat. We don't buy our milk on a butter fat standard.
By the Chairman:
Q. Then the Holstein people will be selling a good deal of milk to you? A.
They are getting the benefit now, but our City standard requires a three and
one-quarter per cent fat.
Mr. CALDXVELL: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a question of privilege; I say that
the Holstein cow has the record for butter fat.
Mr. SLES: Yes? And she should have for the most sky-blue milk I have
ever seen in my lite.
The CHAm: I call myself to order for having introduced extraneous
matter.
Mr. HU6HES: For the year e'.:- December 31st, 1922, we purchased milk
and cream to the value of 1,224,988.55.
Now that value contains 605,186 cans of milk. That is milk and cream
equal to that number of cans of milk. That costs an average of two dollars
and two cents point four. ($2.02-4) per eight gallon can.
This was disposed of as milk, cream, butter, and buttermilk at $1,984,813-
.62: or equal to 83.279 per can.
Our operating cost, including depreciation was $712,127.68 or $1.196 per
can.
Leaving us a profit of 5.9 cents per can.
Q. Almost six cents per can?--A. Yes, I think myself that if the fraction
was carried further out it would be nearer six cents per gallon can.
Q. That is just a little under one cent per gallon?---A. Yes.
Q. Were you present when Mr. Henry was giving his figures?--A. Yes.
Q. Your figures are not far off his. Mr. Henry's were -89 cents per gallon.--
A. If you make it six cents that would be practically three-fourths of a cent per
gallon.
Mr. Hzv: My figure is .87 cents.
The CHAIRMAI': ]r. Henry, in fairness to yourself, the mathematicians of
this Committee seem to think that you think you are making a bigger profit than
you really were.
Mr. ttEY: Well, that may be so.
Mr. HVHFS: In regard to our costs sir, they are made up as follows:-
Our delivery cost are 56-9 cents per can.
Our plant costs are 39.2 cents per can.
Our office costs are 16.1 cents per can.
And our depreciation is 7-4 cents per can.
Or a total of $1.196. That includes all expenses of every description.
[Mr. Robert D. Hughea.l
558 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
from England were present and the bottling question was threshed out for
two days without any solution whatever to it.
Q. But here we do find this, that the producer who owns the animal, milks
the animal, feeds the animal and brings the milk to your doorstep, gets
practically only as much on the whole of that operation as you get from taking
it to the doorstep, pasturizing it and taking it to the consumer yourself.--
A. Well I do not want you to think for one moment that we want to keep the
price down to the producer. I might say that our company is representative
of practically all the milk dealers. We have had very pleasant relationship
with our producers for the last fourteen years. We have never had any
difficulty. When it comes to the matter of arranging price, Mr. Stonehouse,
who is here to-day, with his executive committee--we meet the distributors
and get together and we always come to some satisfactory, solution as regards
both the producer and ourselves and the consumer, of course, then has to take
what we give them.
Mr. SALES: But surely you do not call it a sat.isfacto, solution between
the producers and yourself when the producers are losing money?---A. I am not
prepared to anwser that question, as to whether the producers are losing
money.
Q. We have had evidence here several times over that if the interest
were allowed on your investment in the farm and a very low rate of wages
that the producer would lose money on producing milk.--A. It is a very wide
question, and I do not think it is fair to the distributor to argue that point.
I understand you have Mr. Stonehouse here. I-Ie will probably enlighten you
on that. proposition.
Q. Of course when you say the producers agree, if that is so, it is their own
fault if they make a bad bargain, but for you people, that is all you pay.
--A. We do not say that. The whole thing is laid before us and we arrive
at a price to which the producers agree, and then of course we have to
arrange our selling price.
Q. That price would be determined somewhat by the price condensers are
paying for milk. It would be decided by what returns were made for that,
turning their milk into butter?---A. Yes.
By tle Chairman:
Q. What strikes me as a consumer i. that it does cost a tremendous amount
to distribute milk. You have been in that business for a long time and I am
sure you are a thoughful man. I am sure you have considered what possibility
there is of some more economic means of distribution. For instance, let me
ask you this, so as to show you the trend of my mind. What does the actual
carrying of the milk around cost you apart from the parteurization, apart from
the destruction of bottles? What does the actual distributing of milk cost,
distributing it to your customers?--A. That practically costs us 2 cents a-quart
on our delivery cost. We have nothing only our delivery, equipment.
Q. I am not critical of your allocation of the cost. But here the farmer
is getting five cents a quart, for the milk and it is costing 2 cents, apart from
cleansing it. It costs 2 cents to take it from your establishment around to
the customer. That is 40 per ccnt of the value. That seems high.
]klr. SALS: And the farmer has to pay the railway freight on it, so he
does not get five cents. How far do you draw your milk from. What is the
distance it comes from the farm?--A. I would say about 60 miles is our
farthest point.
[hlr. Robert D. Hughes.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 559
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Can you tell me what the freight cost for that 60 miles would be?---A.
20 cents a can. There are two freight rates, one of 15 cents up to 40 miles.
and another of 20 cents from 40 to 150 miles.
Q. Is there any other zone for 20 cents?--A. No, there are only two
zones.
Q. If a man lives 10 miles from Toronto he pays 15 cents; if he lives 40
miles he pays 15 cents?--A. Yes. They draw it 150 miles for 20 cents.
Q. That is too far for fresh milk? A. Yes, in the summer time.
Q. What is the average haul from the farm to the railway station?---A. You
mean how far would the farmer haul it?
Q. Yes.--A. I suppose the average would be about three miles.
Q. When it gets to the station in Toronto, it is taken at the farmer's
expense from the station to your establishment? A. Yes.
Q. Tell me how much you pay the men who distribute your milk?--A.
Around the cities, of course you understand we deliver seven days a week.
ow we pay our men--
Q. Does the farmer deliver seven days a week, too?--A. :Not in all cases.
Q. But he milks seven days a week?--A. Yes. We pay our men $18.00
a week and 3 per cent commission on the sales.
Q. What does that amount to, with the commission added? A. The com-
mission would amount to,---the total wages would amount to about $30.00
a week.
Q. For. six days a week?---A. Yes.
Q. What about the seven?--A. We have to have extra men to take care of
that.
Q. You let each man have one day as a holiday?--A. Yes. We have
an extra man for every six waggons.
Q. That is a $5.00 a day for the man who delivers the milk, without any
investment at all. He has no waggon, no horses, and he does not own any-
thing?--A. 'o.
Q. I-Ie gets $5.00 a day?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Milne:
Q. That is adding the feed?---A. No, we feed them ourselves.
By the Chairman:
Q. He would be on duty how many hours a day?--A. I would say they
average nine hours a day. It is pretty hard work.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That is $1,565 a year, not counting Sundays.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Each of these men who distribute your milk will make more money
than the producer at that rate. He has no investment. I-Ie has nothing but
his clothes and wear and tear on them? A. You have to take into considera-
tion that the man has to live in the city of Toronto, which costs him more
than it costs the producer on the farm.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. For some items? A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I imagine the producer on the farm pays more for his boots and shoes
and clothes than the man in the city of Toronto, dealing in small town stores.
[1Mr. lobert D. ttughes.]
560 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Ir. CALDVlLL: He wears out double the amount of clothes.
Mr. S.LS: The food he produces himself would be cheaper than it would
be to the man in the city. Otherwise he is living on the same basis.--A. Yes.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Do you find there is a very great overlapping in the delivery of milk
in the cities?--A. To a certain point there is.
Q. Which will add to the cost of distribution?--A. Well, it does in some
ways. Now, we have got to take into consideration that a man's capacity is
only so much; he can only take care of so many customers?
Q. Yes, but say he had one street after another to deliver to all the
people on one street after another, he can serve far more people than if he had
to travel to one street to deliver to three families, and to another street to
deliver to four families, and so on?--A. Yes. He would be able to deliver
more rapidly.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many firms have you in Toronto distributing milk?--A. 51, sir.
Q. I suppose you could find in one street ten or twelve waggons?--A. Not
that many; I would say six or seven.
By the Chairman:
Q. If there is any hope of getting down to a better method of distributing,
it would lie in the actual delivery?--A. Yes. But supposing, hIr. Chairman,
that we say for argument's sake that the City of Toronto is divided into two
sections for delivering, and that the City Dairy Company was delivering at our
homes, but suppose we wanted the other dairy company's milk, it would be
rather hard if we were told that we could not get what we wanted.
Q. I grant you that, but that is the only suggestion that has come to my
mind, and I am not sure that it is a practical one; for instance supposing there
were half a dozen big dairy people in Toronto who practically controlled the
situation, and who said that instead of each one going on all these streets they
would form a little delivery company to supply all regular customers on a cer-
tain street, that the customers of Mr. Hughes would get theirs, the customers
of Mr. Jones would get theirs, and that the customers of Mr. Smith would get.
theirs, all delivered by the same drivers--how would that work out?--A. You
would run into difficulties. We would have the Trade and Combines Act after
US.
Q. But there is nothing to prevent that being done; there is nothing in the
law to prevent people saying that they are going to have a joint delivery of
their wares. I do not know whether it is practicable or not, but there is nothing
illegal about it?--A. Mr. Chairman, I understand that in the City of Calgary
there is only one dairy, that is, the United Dairies. I think myself that you
could get some good information from them as to how it is working out. I think
they have bought out quite a number of dairies in Calgary, and I think it would
help the situation if .you could find out just exactly what benefit it has been
in saving the distributing or the delivery costs of any description, or whether
it is working out well.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. I think you know what the situation is there?---A. Excuse me, Mr.
Sales, I do not know; in fact I have not heard anything of the situation during
the last three years.
[5Ir. Robert D. Hughes.]
562 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13o14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Do you attend those meetings--A. Yes, I attend the meetings. Mr. Stone-
house invites us to attend a meeting at a certain place.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Do the 51 distributors appoint somebody to represent them?--A. Yes;
the Milk Dealers' Association in Toronto have an Executive Committee to
represent them.
Q. They are all in one Association?--A. No, sir. The City Dairy and our-
selves do not belong to the Association.
Q. You do not belong to it?--A. No, sir.
Q. So you have nothing to do with this fixing of prices? A. Yes. h'Ir.
Stonehouse invites us.
sir.
By the Cairman:
Q. And you accept the invitation?--A. Certainly.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Is hir. Stonehouse the only representative of the producers?--A. No,
Mr. E. H. STONE:HOUSE: We have seven on the Executive Committee.
TITNESS: hIr. Stonehouse has his Executive Committee.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You all agree upon the same price to pay for milk and to sell it?--
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Is there any difference in the cost of delivery as between summer and
winter, in the City of Toronto? A. Yes. The cost in winter is very much more,
on account of wear ad tear on bad streets.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Can you always get sufficient milk to supply your customers? A. Yes.
Q. You are never short?A. No, sir. I would not say that we are never
short; for instance, if we do not get all our milk in on Saturday night by trains,
we are short on Monday morning.
Q. Is there any particular period of the year when you are short?--A. Yes,
sir, say about October or November. I might say that during the last three
years anyway there has not been any scarcity of milk.
Q. What do you do in those periods when you are short?--A. We go out
and buy from outside sources.
Q. Do you ever use Klim?--A. No, sir; we have no right to do that.
Q. Are you in the ice cream business?--A. Yes.
Q. Is it showing any profits?--A. No, sir. We have only been in the ice
cream business two years; we have only started up, and we started up in a very
small way and have not yet made any money out of it.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. Referring back to the depots system of distributing milk, is it because
of the fact that the customers demand the delivery of milk at the door that the
producer is unable to reduce the cost of production, because the customer
demands a certain service; do you think that that is a justifiable situation?
A. I understand your question is, Is the customer getting the service? I think
he is.
[Mr. Robert D. ughel
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 563
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. But at tile cost of the producer?--A. I think it is a condition which has
arisen in the last eight or ten years. Times have changed, the people demand
everything, they demand everything to be delivered.
Q. To the extent that they are not actually paying for the cost of delivering;
but taking into consideration the cost of production, what do you sayT-A. Well,
sir, I do not feel that I am in a position to speak on the cost of production.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. In other words, we have got into a very expensive system of distri-
bution?--A. Yes; it is an expensive system.
By the Chairman:
Q. Whatever the reason of it is, you cannot expect the distributor, who is
making his money by supplying milk to the people in the condition in which
they want it to be supplied to them, to initiate the reform?--A. :No, sir.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How long have you been in the business?A. Since 1909.
Q. How did you distribute milk in those days?--A. The same way.
Q. In bottles? A. In bottles.
Q. Has the cost of distribution gone up--A. Yes.
Q. How much?--A I have not the figures back to 1909.
Q. Can you give us any idea of it?--A. I can go back to 1915. In 1915 it
cost us 69-2 cents per can.
Q. For an eight gallon can?--A. For an eight gallon can. It is $1.19.6
now.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Practically double?--A. Practically double.
By the Chairman:
Q. That is about 40 per cent more. What about the cost of distributing?
--A. That is the cost of distributing. :No, that is our total cost. I have not.
the separate costs for that period.
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Mr. Hughes, a day or so ago we had another witness here, who made
the statement that had he invested $5,000 in a dairy company in Toronto that,
he would now be worth $12,000; he invested $5,000 two years ago. Can you
give us any idea of the financial condition of the dairy companies in Toronto,
in regard to the price of their stock?--A. Our own stock?
Q. Yes.--A. Our company's stock is at par We are not listed at all, we
are not on the Exchange at all.
By Mr. Gardiner:
Q. What dividends are you paying on your stock?--A. We paid 4 per cent
for the half year in June, and 4 per cent in December, with a bonus of 2 per
cent.
By the Chairman:
Q. 10 per cent for the year?--A. 10 per cent for the year, practically.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You organized your company in 1909?--A. In 1909.
Q. At a capital of how much?--A. Our capital has been changed so often
that I can hardly tell.
[iIr. lobert D. Hughes.]
564 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. But at that time what was it?A. $40,000.
Q. How much was paid up?--A. I could not tell you.
Q. What was the first call?---A. Twenty per cent, I think.
Q. Further calls have been made?--A. We have since then increased our
capital stock to half a million.
Q. Any melon cutting in the meantime?--A. :No, sir.
Q. Every dollar of this capital has been put up by the investors?A.
Absolutely.
Q. :Not paid for out of the profits?--A. :No, sir; absolutely every dollar
has been paid in cash.
Q. Have you put up any reserve fund in the Company?---A. Yes, a little
reserve, but our capital is not fully paid. We have not got the $500,000 all paid
up; we have about $350,000 paid up.
By Mr. Hanmell:
Q. In striking a dividend, you just take into consideration the amount of
the capital paid up?--A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Have you paid 8 per cent over the whole time?--A. :No, sir. The first
four years we did not pay any dividend at all.
Q. What was the highest dividend you have paid?--A. Last year, ten
per cent. We have called up $120,000 of capital in the last half year. It has
been all subscribed, but has not all been paid.
Q. Can you give me any idea of the amount of money invested in the
whole of the companies distributing milk in your city?---A. I cannot say.
Q. Are you the largest? A. :No, sir, the City Dairy is a larger company
than we are.
The CHm_: Mr. Tolmie, we have been asking this gentleman, the
president of a Dairy Company, about the cost of milk.
By Mr. To!mie:
Q. What does he say that his company pays for milk?---A. The company
paid an average of $2.02 per can for eight gallons.
Q. What does that run per hundred?--A. About $2.46. I would have to
,work it out.
By the Chairman:
Q. 24 cents per gallon?--A. Well that would be $2.47.
By Mr. Tolt.nic:
Q. That is your winter price?--A. Yes.
Q. How long does that prevail?--A. Until the end of April.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. That is delivered in Toronto?--A. Yes.
caI1 ?
Q.
By Mr. Tolmie:
What does it cost for the delivery?---A. Per hundred pounds or per
Or per gal!on?---A. It would cost I would say about three cents per
gallon on the average.
Q. Do the farmers find that price a profitable one?--A. I am not pepared
to say that doctor, but we have had no difficulty with our own producers They
[Mr. Robert D. Hughes.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 567
APPENDIX No. 3
more, and it is unfortunate that these farmers have got to pay so much money
for all they buy and when they have got to pay all the taxes imposed, and with
the high prices of farm implements and of boots, clothing and so on, well, I
pity them; they don't get what they should get. And we maintain that they
pay more for what they buy and they do not get enough for what they sell.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. How long do you consider that the farmers can keep on producing
under present conditions; can they keep on indefinitely?---A. No. Some changes
-ill have to be made, because we find that amongst our patrons their sons
do not stay on the farm.
Q. And they cannot hire help at the present prices to carry on farming
operations?--A. No, no one around Montreal wants to work on the farms.
Last year we had a great number of unemployed men and some of the farmers
tried to get them to work on the farm, offering good wages, but they did not
succeed in hiring one of them. No one wants to work on a farm.
Q. Supposing they would work, can the farmer under present conditions
pay the prevailing rate of wages and make his operations pay?--A. No, he
cannot do it. Some of those farmers understood well that they would lose
money by hiring men, but still they live in hope that conditions will improve.
The older farmers who have been farming for years, dislike to leave the farm
but they will tell you frankly that if they were fifteen or twenty years younger
they would quit the farm. And the boys and girls do not want to stay on the
farm and we do not know what is coming; something will have to be done or
you will have no more farmers in this country.
B g Mr. Sales:
Q. Vhere have they been going?--A. We have been watching them very
closely and by our information they come to the city and try any kind of job,
and they maintain that a salary of $18 to $22 a week is far better than what
they can get on the farm. The girls are coming to the city also, finding
jobs in the textile companies or any company in which they can get work,
and if they do not succeed in finding work in Montreal, the first thing we
know they go to the States. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, since three
months over 340 young men who came from farms to Montreal last year and
the year before, have gone to Springfield and Syracuse and other cities where
there are different textile companies and young girls just the same.
By the Chairman:
Q. You were born in what country?--A. I was born in Ste. Classique. We
follow them very closely because we are interested.
We have at the present time about 3,000 shippers of cream, and I should
say that in the environs of Montreal we have about 500 patrons there, and we
fear the future. To supply our company to-day it takes 8,000 producers supply-
ing cream because we are large makers of butter and we have established
a trade with the States and also we are shipping our butter to England. To
supply our company to-day it takes that number, 8,000 patrons, while years
ago 4,000 would be enough; but when you come to figure out the number of
cows that these farmers are keeping to-day, you find that every year the
number is decreasing on each farm.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. And that is the reason it is taking more patrons?--A. Yes.
[Mr. Adelard 'ortier.]
568 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Is it not true then that it costs more to raise cream or milk on a farm
of ten cows than on a farm of thirty cows, in comparison with the amount
raised? A. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, and that is why we are afraid in a certain
number of years practically half of the farmers will have quit the farming busi-
ness because they cannot make it pay, at the present time. I have got brothers
who are farmers ,and they are the same as the rest, they cannot make it pay.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Have these farmers good cows?---A. To-day they are trying to get the
best cows; I will tell you why, bccause, having just a few cows, they are trying
to get the best, but unfortunately, when they come to buy that class of cows
they have to pay very high high prices, and the farmers can not buy them, so
they have not the good cows. That is what they are trying to do to-day.
Q. Would you say they understand the business of feeding cows?---A. Well,
sir, I should say this, that there is a certain number of people in this country who
say that the farmers of this country do not know their business. I maintain that
they do know their business, but how can you make a thing pay when you
sell what you produce practically for nothing, and when you pay all that you
get for the things you buy. There is not a man can stay in that business.
Q. That is the experience of your own brothers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they are all good business men?--A. Yes; my father is a farmer, and
they are farmers themselves.
Q. Have they been studying the best methods of production?---A. They
have, sir, and I maintain this; take the best farmer during the last three or four
years, taking the best of them, and if that farmer can say he has been making
money on his farm, I say there is something wrong. I know there are no farmers
can make any money to-day.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Can they break even, on an average?--A. As my brother said to me one
day, "We exist; we do not live, we exist. We have to spend every, copper we can
possibly earn." Then there is the question of equipment; if the farmer does not
make any money, he cannot replace the necessary equipment, and if he cannot do
that, he fails altogether.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many hours a day are these farmers working?--A. Well, sir, I
know when it comes around May, until the 15th of October or November, they
have to start about half past five, or five o'clock, and then they work until
about eight; they come in and have their breakfast, and then they work
until half-past seven or eight o'clock, until it is dark.
Q. There is a general idea that the farmer does not work in the winter.---
A. I am not prepared to say he does not work in the winter time. There is
no man in the city who would do the work of the farmer during the winter.
That man probably has a number of cows, and he is obliged to feed them,
and look after them every day in the week, Saturday afternoon and Sunday
as well as any other day, while the boys in the city are not working at all.
Then he has to get his wood in, and all that kind of thing in the winter time.
As you know, in the last few years, many farmers have been obliged to cut
wood to make a few dollars with the lumber to help on their farms.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Fortier, when you send your butter out of the country, you have
.o meet the competition of the.world?--A. Yes, sir, we have. Unfortunately,
[Mr. Adelard Fortier.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 569
APPENDIX No. 3
Ir. Chairman, since that big duty on butter to the United States has come,
it has hurt our farmers very much. When you think that when we export
one pound of butter to the United States to-day, we have to pay 8 cents
duty on that butter, we have to pay freight of about a cent and a quarter a
pound; now, how can you expect our farmers here to sell that butter 8 cents
less than the American farmer gets for his butter; how can you expect that,
and still leave anything for the farmer? low, what we find is that that is
not fair to our Canadian farmer; our American friend can ship butter here
and all they have to pay is 4 cents duty. Why is that? We cannot explain
that.
By Mr. Caldwcll:
Q. And we import large quantities of butter from the United States.--
A. Look what happens now. Butter, as you know, has been low enough
last year, and as a matter of fact it has been too low for those who are pro-
ducing the milk. Why is it sold for that? Because the men, that is, the
butter exporters, they did not know what was coming, when the high tariff
on butter went into effect. If you did not have high tariff on butter, most
likely and most naturally the butter exporter would have bought the butter
and exported it and the farmer would have got the benefit of the 4 cents duty,
so that is why our butter was so very low last year, and in addition--.
By the Chairman:
Q. Excuse me interrupting you, but even in spite of the tariff of 8 cents
against our butter, you send butter into the United States?--A. Yes, last year
we shipped 12,000 tubs, of 63 pounds each.
Q. Did you ever try to send any cream into the United States with a
very high content of butter fat?--A. As a matter of fact we did ship that, too.
Q. Because I know in my county we are shipping cream to the United
States, and they make it just as high as they can without its being butter,
and they get it in at a very much lower rate of duty.--A. Yes, but besides that
it is bad for our country, because all the buttermilk and so on is used by our
American friends, and then we lose the portion of buttermilk for raising hogs
and so on in this count, but we would ship our cream to the other side if
it were a steady demand, but unfortunately they only want cream about a
month and a half a year.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. That would cut out butter making in Canada altogether?---A. Yes,
but as long as the farmers make money on the cream--I would like the farmers
to make that money.
By the Chairman:
Q. If the people in Canada would pay the same price as the people in the
United States, or even a little less, the cream would stay in Canada?---A. Yes.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. If I understand you aright, large numbers of young men and young
women that should be on the farm getting a profitable rate of wages, are
drifting into Montreal, and from there over to the States, where they are
working in manufacturing centres, largely textile factories?--A. Yes.
Q. And the farmers left are working overtime and producing butter at
a disadvantage of 8 cents duty, and sending it to feed those people who should
be at home?--A. Yes.
[Mr. Adelard Fortier.l
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 571
APPENDIX No. 3
but in our country we have been protecting certain industries and the farmer
is at their mercy. I-Ie has to pay what they ask. That is the whole thing.
That is the real position we are in.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. There is a heavy duty now compared with what it was a few years ago
on your hay, butter and other things, over to the American side, which is a
hardship on the Canadian farmer who used to get a large volume of business
from that market. Is the American farmer correspondingly better off because
of the poor conditions of our own farmers in that particular trade. Is the
increase of the tariff a benefit to the American farmer in the same way it
operates against the Canadian farmer?--A. Take the American farmer first.
What he buys he pays about 40 to 50 per cent less than what our Canadian
farmer buys at. :Now the population of the States, with their 110,000,000
people, there is always a market for their products. Talking about butter, we
have an eight cent tariff on butter and there is nowhere in the world that can
compete with the American farmer because he has always 8 cents advance on
any other farmer in the world, so they say " alright, we will produce butter,"
but he knows he can get 8 cents more than any other farmer in the world, so
he is safe there, legarding milk, when he produces milk he has arranged that
all the milk he will produce he will ct such a price for it, and you 'ill find
that the American farmer is getting far much more money for -hatever milk
he produces than the Canadian farmer does. As a matter of fact, with all the
duties they have been putting on our produce here, we still export some of our
Canadian produce.
By the Chairman:
Q. Does milk cost the consumer in the cities of the United States--take
Buffalo and Toronto, do you think people in Buffalo a.re paying more for their
milk than they are in Toronto?--A. Mr. Chairman, I am not quite ready to
state to-day, because for our part we have not been as far as that, and we
intend of course to find out---
Q. I might be wrong, but I would think that all those shipments of butter
from the United States have stopped. I would imagine that the United States
still ship cheese outside of the country. Perhaps some of the gentlemen here
know whether they do or not.
Hon. Mr. TOLlXIIE: I think they do.
The CHArA: If they are still shipping cheese, that shows they have
more milk in the United States than the United States consumes.---A. Sure
they have.
Q. If they have, they will not be able to raise the price to any substantial
degree above the price, in which they have an exportable surplus either in
butter or cheese. I think it goes out in cheese.A. When the time of pro-
duction comes along, it takes for the United States such a tremendous quantity
of butter to keep them going in the -inter months, that the men dealing
in butter have to store for their winter use, and then of course the farmcr
gets the, benefit of all that high price.
Q. I am very doubtful whether the American farmer does get the benefit
of the high price. I think the man who can store it until the high price period
comes gets the benefit of it. I would say if that benefit is to the American
farmer, it is taken out of the American producer, I do not think there is any
permanent benefit in putting a tax on the food of the people as a whole.
[Mr. Adelard Fortier.]
572 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. What are you getting for first class butter in Montreal now?--A.
Yesterday we were charging grocers 44 cents. To-day the price is 38 cents.
Q. There is no American butter in competition with it?--A.
Q. What is New Zealand butter selling for in Montreal to-day?--A.
Yesterday New Zealand butter was offered at 34 cents.
Q. The New Zealand butter man can put his butter in cheaper than you
can? A. I do. not think so, because the butter importers are losing money
at the present time.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What are they charging retail for that butterA. When we were
selling butter to the grocer at 44 cents, they were selling it at 49 cents.
By the Chairman:
Q. As a matter of fact the profits on butter are not exorbitant, are they?
A. o.
Q. The profits taken by middleman on butter are not exorbitant?A. No.
I am ready to say that.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. That is, they keep a spread of 5 cents around whatever the price is?
. Yes. The grocery men, those stores that sell for cash, where the people
carry it away, they can sell cheaper. Those that have to deliver to Mrs. So-
and-so, whatever she wants, are obliged to charge more th anyone else.
Unfortunately in our city we have a lot of people who do not know how to
buy. Some of my friends who are grocers tell me that they have lady
customers who live about a mile and a half from the ocery from which they
buy and they will call up and order a pound of sugar and later on order
pound of butter and they will want it right away. Now, look at the cost of
the delivery business.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. Are you finished on that. To what do you attribute the fall in the
price of butter in Montreal at the present time? The presence of New
Zealand butter? A. Yes. Unfortunately, if we knew what every one was
doing on the Montreal market, we could avoid those slumps, but you ow
there arc cases where a man would think he would be short of butter and he
would place an order with some of the New Zealand companies ship a few
thousand boxes of butter at such a price, that butter to be here at such a day,
and he keeps his mouth shut, and the next man does the same as he does, and
instead of one man importing 2,000 boxes, there are five or ten men doing the
same thing, and that is where the slump comes in.
Q. So if you think that these butter imposers are losing money, is that
fresh arrival, or has it been in storage for some time?--A. Fresh arrival.
Q. How long do you think it will continue? A. At the present time Mont-
real has a few thousand boxes left. We have information that there are three
thousand boxes that will be in next week.
Q. Have you any idea what that butter is worth F.O.B. 'ew Zealand?
By the Chairman:
Q. As a matter of fact it would be pretty hard for New Zealanders to
bring butter into Montreal? A. The butter that is coming in is butter that
has been shipped a month or a month and a half ago.
[Mr. Adelard FoXier.]
574 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
money, but if he has 8,000 boxes or 800.000 boxes he gets less money for it in
proportion. If he produces so much milk, it will mean so much more to give
away, and he will not produce it With all that, something has to be done or the
farming industry will go to pieces.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. In the first place, you realize that the Government cannot set a price on
farm products, that is regulated by the law of supply and demand. Do you
consider that the Government should set the price of farm produce?--A. We
say this, that regarding the butter and cheese industry the Government should
say, if butter goes to such a low point, the Government will take care of that
part, and if we ship it to England and do not get the price that we should get
for it, the farmer will be entitled to the proportion of the difference, our Govern-
ment paying for it.
By tle Cl(lirma:
Q. How will the Government get the money to pay that? A. Well, sir, by
reducing expenses.
Mr. C^LDWELL: By what?
The C^mM^: By reducing expense along other lines.
By the Clairman:
Q. Is that what you mean?---A. That is what I mean by reducing expenses.
If you will ask me the questions, I will start at the bottom and go to the top.
Q. Well. explain it.--A. I am not a farmer; I wish I was one, but not at
the present time.
Bg Mr. Sales:
Q. It is a happy life, but not a profitable one?--A. We will all starve very
shortly. You asked me about the expenses. Do you know what makes the
farmer feel bad? It is when he reads a list which shows that in our country we
pay officers that practically are not worth a damn very high salaries, and as a
matter of fact we appoint Mr. So-and-So to such a high position, we know he is
not worth one-half or one-third of what he gets. The farmers get mad, and they
have the right to do so. We go around and make investigations, farmers,
merchants and so on; we go into some Departments where you have 100 men
or 50 girls working; one-half of that staff could do the work, and maybe less
than that. We maintain that the hours that the staff works are not long
enough. You cannot pay a man and have him work from nine o'clock; he starts
at nine o'clock, or he goes in at nine o'clock, he reads the paper, washes his
hands, and starts working at half past nine, then goes to lunch at twelve o'clock.
But he does not go at twelve o'clock; he goes before twelve; he washes his
hands at about half past eleven, come back at half past one, does not start work
until two o'clock, and stops at four in the summertime, and in the wintertime
at five o'clock. When the farmer compares that with what he has to do on the
farm, and what his son has to do on the farm for almostnothing, he gets mad.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is that not an exaggerated statement?---A. I don't think so. Something
has to be done. Whatever money is spent that should be saved, put it on the
farmer's side, reduce the tariff on farm implements and reduce the tariff on
boots, shoes and other things, as well as on farm products.
By Mr. Bouchard:
Q. There is a duty of eight on one side and four on the other. In your
opinion, when the duty on butter going to the United States is 8 per cent it
should be 8 per cent coming this way?A. That is what I think.
[Mr. Adelard Fortier.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 575
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Do you not think it better bu.-:iness to have the Government take the duty
off both ways and give us an unrestricted market?--A. I understand they have
been trying to do that, but they cannot succeed.
Q. You would not believe in giving up the effort?--A. They should get us
the United States as our market.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. Do you believe in taking it off the country requirements and putting
it on city requirements?--A. I am not prepared to say that; but they should
arrange to work in such a way that their prices should compare a little with
what prices are in the United States.
Mr. CALDVITELL: hir. Chairman, while we have a thirty per cent duty on
shoes from the United States to Canada, they go free from Canada to the United
States.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. There" is no duty on farm machinery going to the United States?--
A. :No, sir.
Q. But there is a stiff duty coming this way? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There is no duty on fertilizers going to the United States? A. That is
right.
Q. But there is a thirty per cent duty this way?--A. I understand so.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. If you were the Prime hIinister---A. I would not like his .iob.
Q. You may get there yet. You say that these prices of the things which
the farmer has to buy have to come down?--A. Yes.
Q. :How would you bring them down--if you were Prime Minister?--A. I
really believe first that I would see these manufacturers, meet them, go to the
head first, get them around the table as we are doing to-day.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Don't you think they do that to-day?
By the Chairman:
Q. Will you continue that?---A. And ask them, ":Now look here, American
farmers buy shoes at such a price; they buy suits, they buy farm implements
and so forth at such a price, can you not arrange to reduce your prices so much
per cent and keep the farmers at their job on the farm? ' I do not know what
they would say about that, but the great fault, Mr. Chairman, as far as I know
is that our farmers pay more for what they buy than they should pay.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Suppose they said they could not, then what would you do--if you
were Prime Minister?---A. I would guarantee the farmers that if in our country
we have gottake the butter business, the dairy industry, that to my mind is
the best we have in mind at the present time.
Q. But you are getting away from what I asked you. A. I would say "It
will come back to you; we have to tell the farmer that his milk will not bring
him less than so much per hundred pounds" and the factory man, the cheese
man, or the butter man, then if the butter market or the cheese market goes
lower, the Government will take care of that by the surplus of the butter.
[Mr. lelard Fortier.]
576 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. You would have the Government guarantee the price?--A. Yes, and
instead of leaving the farmers at the mercy of the world, we have a high tariff
here, then when comes the time to ship that butter or that cheese, no doubt
our English importers will buy that cheese and that butter from us iust the
same, but they would pay the price set by the Government, and if the price paid
did not bring what you guaranteed the farmers, the Government would have
to take care of the difference, then the farmer would know that whatever he
produced in that line he would be paid for.
Mr. CALDVELL: Being a farmer, Mr. Chairman, you would naturally ex-
pect me to agree with this last statement. But it is a dangerous thing to set
prices for anybody, because if they did that they would be opening the door,
and would have to set the prices for everything. But the Government should
see that he does not pay excessive prices, and they should reduce the duty on
clothing, boots, shoes, etc., and should guarantee him a reasonable price for his
raw material, but I do not think they should guarantee him a set price for what
he produces. That is subject to the law of supply and demand, at least that is
my opinion. I am dairying somewhat too, as I said before. When you set
a price on any one commodity, you cannot refuse to guarantee the next pro-
ducer, manufacturer, farmer, or whatever he is. I do not think the witness is
on safe ground there; while I am almost in love with the rest of his evidence,
I do not agree with him there.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. What would be the average investment in implements on one of these
dairy farms you speak of now?--A. That is a very wide question to answer.
Q. For ploughs, waggons, seeders and so on?--A. I maintain this, that our
farmers had better implements three or four years ago than they have to-day,
because we find that our. farmers are not replacing their implements as fast
as they should, and as a matter of fact when you ask them why they say they
have not the money to do it.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You say they are not replacing them?--A. They are not replacing them;
they are working with old implements, which are not giving them any satisfac-
tion.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. The duty on implements is less than it was four or five years ago?--A.
No, sir, but it is still v.ery high.
Q. There is not much difference in the price?--A. No.
hlr. CALDWELL: I want to speak of two farms, one in Maine, the other in
New Brunswick, side by side. In the Bulletin it gives the average capital in
machinery and equipment on farms from 81 to 100 acres. It is on page 5,
Average Capital in Machinery $1,173 on a farm of from 81 to 100 acres. The
average size was 95 acres. That would be a very small investment in machinery.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. Those men carrying on dairying, do they carry on mixed farming, or
dairying only?--A. Mixed farming.
Q. They would not have over $1,175; they would have potato digging
machinery, haying machinery and harvesting machinery?--A. I will tell you
what we find; it is pretty hard to have hired men and their sons going away,
while every farmer is trying to get all the machinery he can, buying it on instal-
[Mr. Adelard Fortier.]
578 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
margarine high. It will be one, or two or three cents less than butter. But
it does not cost them any more to manufacture when butter is high. If you
inquire when butter was say 50 cents you will find that margarine was sold
at 44 cents. Now they can sell it at 20 cents, profitably. So why do you
let them keep that price?
By Mr. Tolmie:
Q. Do you know what is tile total consumption of butter in Canada?
--A. Well, we think Montreal is using about 8,000 boxes a week. We say tha
if in Montreal they buy 8,000 boxes of butter weekly and we have a popula-
tion of 800,000 people, then the rest of Canada is using about tile same average
as we are in Montreal.
Bg the Chairman:
Q. That would be ten times that?--A. Yes.
Q. It was 240.000,000 pounds last year, according to Mr. Ruddick. And
how much margarine was consumed in Canada last year?---A. That I do not
know.
Q. I am told that it was about two per cent of the total manufacture of
butter. Do you think that interferes very seriously with the manufacture of
butter at tha proportion?--A. It does not interfere with the quantity, but it does
with the price, because I maintain this, that margarine is there just to make
the people think that if butter goes to such a price, margarine will be there,
and then the farmers do not get any benefit from the increased price.
Q. Do you think margarine interferes with first class butter?---A. I don't
think so, no, but if when the price of butter goes up, the people are not
anxious to buy poor butter, and poor people, as long as they have got a few
cents they will buy lialf a pound of good butter instead of buying one iound
of cheap butter, as I have said, they may buy margarine for butter.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. There is one feature that I think has been emphasized and that may
be misleading, that is as to the small percentage of margarine manufactured in
Canada as compared with the amount of butter. It may be that the manu-
facture of only a small percentage is due to the fact that permission to manu-
facture is only granted for one year at a time; for that reason the factories
were not equipped to manufacture large quantities, as they might have to
cease altogether at tile end of the year. If that restriction were removed and
they were allowed to manufacture margarine indefinitely as regards time
possibly the volume would increase very rapidly? A. Yes, and we think at
the present time there is a lot of margarine mixed up with butter, and that
is due to the law as it stands at present. The people who buy that would
rather eat butter; they would'not eat half butter and half margarine.
The CHmah: It is about one o'clock. We are very grateful to you,
Mr. Fortier. You came here as a spectator and we brought you in to enlighten
us and we are very much obliged.
The Committee will meet again at four o'clock.
[Mr. Adlard Fortier.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 579
APPENDIX No. 3
AFTERNOON SESSION
C. :BOURBEAU, called, sworn and examined.
By the Clairman:
Q. Mr. Bourbeau, I understand you arc in the service of the Government
of the province of Quehec?--A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your position?---A. I am Chief Inspector of cheese and butter
factories.
Q. You are Chief Inspector of cheese and butter factories in that province?
--A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been engaged in this kind of work how long?--A. Since 1893.
Q. You have been kind enough to come here to give us some help in our
study of agricultural conditions If satisfactory to you, I would propose that
you briefly address the Committee, ,mking such observations as you may think
wise under the circumstances, and then give the members of the Committee an
opportunity to question you further on the various points which may occur to
them.--A. Well, hlr. Chairman. I nmst admit frankly that this puts me in an
awkward position, because my English is not quite up to the mark, and it will
be a little hard for me to make a statement without hesitation, although I am
quite ready to make it. Perhaps you will pernit me to look at my notes once
in a while. If it was in French, I would be quite willing to make my statement
right through without looking at my notes.
My principal duty is to see as to the quality of the products made in Que-
bec, cheese and butter, and the condition of the factory, that is, in relation of
course to the quality of the produce. I have not the advantage of some of the
witnesses who have studied the conditions regarding the cost of production, and
so forth; that is not in my line.
Q. Let me interrupt you a moment, for the benefit of those who have come
in a little lathe. You are the Chief of the service in Quebec that examines into
the conditions of cheese and butter factories in the province, and the quality of
the cheese and butter afterwards; you have been in the service of the Government
along these lines ever since 1893, so you must have been there ever since you
were a very young man? A. A rather young man. I will speak of the quality
of our cheese and butter and our produce, and if there is a way of improving
that quality, and especially to reduce the cost of production and making it, that
is, in relation to the cost of production of course.
This count .ry, as you know, is very well situated to make the best goods
in the world. I have no hesitation in saying that our country is well situated;
we have a nice climate, good water, and good pasture.
Q. When you say our country, do you mean Canada as a whole, or the
province of Quebec particularly?--A. I have been through the West, I have
been through Ontario and Quebec. and I know them thoroughly, both provinces.
I must say also that I know the West by having so many friends out there, and
I know the conditions well also, but I know particularly Quebec and Ontario.
The statement I will make will be with regard to Qubeec mostly, of course.
'e are making in Quebec a little more cheese to-day than butter, but it is
getting more even from day to day, and the time is not far off when Quebec will
make more butter than cheese. Ours is a very good country and is well situated
to make the best country butter, on account of our pasture, our climate and
our water. The division of our parish is really an advantage, because in a very
small piece of road you can gather in lots of patrons and lots of milk.
Q. You mean it lessens the cost of the gathering of the milk?--A. Yes.
[Mr. C. Bourbeau.]
3--37
580 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Will you explain to the members of the Committee just how our parishes
are generally grouped?--A. Our farms as a rule are two, three or four acres
wide, by thirty in length. The farmers are very near to each other. Take any
ten mile run, for instance, you can reach lots of farmers and gather in lots of
milk and cream. We suffer in Quebec from our smaller factories. Take ten
miles on each side, and you will get very large factories, and the carriage of
milk will not cost very much. That situation allows the farmers, or permits
the farmers rather to bring to their factories, on account of the short distances,
the best quality of milk and cream; in fact in Quebec we are making fifty per
cent of our butter out of cream skimmed at the factory. There is only fifty per
cent made on what we call the gathering system of cream, that is, Mr. Chair-
nmn, in your county especially, iu the English part of the eastern townships.
In the balance of Quebec the great majority of the butter is made from very
sweet cream, because that cream is the product of milk that has been skimmed
at the factory.
I told you we were the best situated to have good cream, because that is
the foundation of good butter. Out of that fifty per cent of the cream we
receive at the factory, .there is at least one-half of it that arrives at the factory
in a very. sweet condition; in fact, outside of Montreal and Quebec, there are
very few factories that use any neutralizers for their cream. I think we can
count those factories on the fingers of one hand. We do not use neutralization
in our factory, because we do not need it outside of Montreal and Quebec and
a few other cities. So that is why we are in a very good position. The quality
of our butter, if you will allow me to take the statement from the co-operative
creamery, an association of farmers to sell their produce, their cheese and but-
ter, in 1922 the co-operative sold 6,507.816 pounds of butter; out of that quan-
tity of butter, twenty-five per cent was pasteurized, fifty-four per cent was No.
1, and 19-87 No. 2.
You may ask me why we do not make a larger proportion of pasteurized
butter. The principal reason is that our good cream permits us to furnish good
butter, especially for the local nmrket. Our cream being sweet, in the maiority
of cases the makers do not pasteurize it, although, as I will show later on, I
would advise that that system be enforced. I have no doubt that the butter
made under those conditions is the best keeping quality of butter.
Q. Under those conditions, pasteurised cream?--A. No, sir, sweet cream.
and pasteurized; in fact if you take the results of the contest you will find that
if Quebec does not always stand on top of the first score, it is always on top
at the last. That means that our but*er has the keeping quality, and tha
keeping quality is due to the condition of our cream; there is no question abou
that. I mention these facts, gentlemen, not to boast of Quebec, because I am
here as a Canadian, not as a Quebec man.
Q. The truth must be known?--A. Exactly, in the interests of all. l'ow,
can we improve the quality of our butter?
Q. Before you pass to that subject, there is evidence given before this
Committee to the effect that the three Western Provinces made butter of a
very high quality: "The three restern Provinces make butter that is a credit
to this country. Ontario and Quebec butter is a disgrace to the country." Now,
Mr. Bourbeau, I would like you to tell us what your view is?---A. If I were
not under oath, I would like to answer that, but I am obliged to speak the
truth. I have a great respect for the man who made that statement, because
I know he is a man. I read his evidence regarding the cost of production, and it
is really the best work I have come across. :hen I read his evidence here, I
will admit that it was on the basis of what he had heard, more than on what
he had experienced himself. There is no question that the Western Provinces
[Mr. C. Bourbeau.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 89
APPENDIX No. 3
Q. Is there any way in which the people can be induced to do that?q
A. I do not think there is any way except by law.
Air. SALES: Mr. McMaster will not agree to that.
WTESS: Since twenty years every utility in Ontario and Quebec began
by Mr. Ruddick, down to the local inspector. We have had our conventions,
and we have said that they are ruining our market with green cheese, and
instead of having less green cheese shipped, it is getting more every year.
saw some cheese in England that was not fit to eat. It was of A-1 quality,
because as a cheese maker who has not done anything else all his life I say
that the cheese was of A-1 quality, but the nan who bought it in England said
it was too dry altogether, the texture was not right; that is against the
interests of the farmers again.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You think it is in the interests of the farmers and in the interests
of the country as a whole that the Government should step in and say that
you should not be allowed to do this or that?--A. That is my opinion. I do
not think there is any other way, because we have been trying to do it for
years.
Bg Mr. McKay:
Q. What about cold storagc?--A. That is good.
Q. What temperature do you advise?--A. We advise a temperature of
between 58 and 60 degrees, which ripens quick enough but not too quick.
By the Chairman:
Q. After the cheese is made, how long should it ripen in order to bring
it to perfection, in your view?--A. That is a hard question to answer, a very
hard question. We claim that when the ripening begins, if you give it a certain
length of time, say four days, a certain process goes on, and it will keep better
even in cold storage. It depends npon the taste of the consumer. I do not like
cheese any less than six months old, -hile you may like cheese a month old.
It takes about a month before it breaks down to any ex-ent. At 60 degrees it
should not be eaten before a month anyway.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Have you investigated the possibilities of making a smaller cheese
for the home market?--A. We are lust now advising all our small factories
to get into that kind of business. In the County of Charlebois, where they
do not get more than 2,000, which is considered a big factory, most of such
factories are making small sized cheese weighing from 20 to 30 or 40 pounds,
for the local market. We are trying to turn every small factory into a local,
which would increase the consumption of our cheese.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Would you consider a ten-pound cheese as practicable?--A. Yes. We
have even in the County of Levis some factories which nmke two pounds,
and it sells like hot cakes.
Q. Does that cheese go into our western country?--A. They do not make
enough even for the Quebec market; everything is taken. They make that
little cheese soft; a family can buy it, and it does not last very long.
By the Chairman:
Q. Especially in a Quebec family?---A. Yes. In an English family it
would last ten days, but in a family where there are ten children, it will not
last any time.
[Mr. C. Bourbeau.l
594 PEC1AL COMMITTEE
13-1,4 GEORGE V, A. 1923
and particularly our cheese, we have a periodic production, that is, we have the
vast bulk or volume of our product produced in a comparatively short period in
the year. It means that every cheese factory practically has to market its
cheese at that specified time, or that period of greatest abundance, and it is
thrown on the nmrkct without any provision being made for it in anv way,
shape or form as far as the producer is concerned, thus making it possible for
the speculative interests to come in, concerning that product and making in a
good many cases excessive profits, which go into their pockets instead of into
the pockets of the producers, thus reducing the profit to the producer, reducing
his purchasing power, and reducing markets in other directions. There is one
of our great difficulties, the cornering of our agricultural products and the
exploiting of them in the interests of a few men to the detriment of the con-
sumers as well as the producers.
It might be of int.erest to the (:ommitiee to say that we have been trying
to do something in Ontario during the last few months in the way of co-opera-
tive marketing of cheese; a sales organization, handling the large volume ot
our cheese in Ontario. We will be glad to co-operate with the whole Dominion
in that respect. We think that until we get a more systematic method of mar-
keting whereby the market instead of being glutted at one period of the )-ear
and starved at another with tremendous fluctuations in price, low in the period
ot greatest production and high when we have nothing to sell, we shall remain
practically where we are to-day.
By the Chairmai:
Q. Have you thought of whether there are any artificial factors in
economic situation raising the price of what the farmer has got to buy as
consumer?--A. Yes, I think there are, although they may be legitimate. For
instance, machinery. It is a business proposition; the manufacturer counts the
cost of his materials, labour and overhead, profit and so on and arrives at a
price.
Q. I would not call them artificial factors, I would call those natural
factors in arriving at price.--A. Well, I should not call it artificial either, but
through their organization they are able to maintain conditions which make it
profitable for them to produce.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. When they have their warehouses filled, if the demand falls off, they
can close the factory down and cease production?---A. Quite so.
Q. But if we did the same what would happen?--A. If we could we might
possibly remedy our conditions, but unfortunately we cannot. When a manu-
facturer has an overplus, he can stop production, but when we reach the condi-
tion that we have arrived at to-day where our fixed charges are so high, rents.
labour and all that sort of thing, and we have to meet those charges, instead
of slackening up on production, every one of us feels that we have to produc
twice as muc5 to meet our charges and we are making the condition that much
worse.
Q. Absolutely.
Q. I do not know whether it would be of interest to the Committee, but
I was very much interested in the statement of the United States Secretary of
Agriculture not very long ago when he said that it is looked upon as heretical
to preach limiting production, but surely if it is legitimate for the manufacturer
to do it, I do not see very much wrong in it being followed by the farmer. Bu
it is not practicable as an economic possibility.
[Mr. Edward H. Stonehouse.]
596 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Your idea is that someone steps in and buys largely of the cheese at
the low price and then holds it until the price goes up?---A. Yes. There is no
doubt about that.
Q. And you say there is no reason why through co-operation the farmers
should not hold their own cheese?---A. No reason whatever.
O. And that would not result in any increase of price to the consumer?--
A. It should not.
Q. But perhaps the reverse?--A. Yes.
Q. And it would result in greater profits to the farmer? A. Yes.
By Mr. Salcs:
Q. Would that mean that you would require cold storage?--A. Yes.
Q. Owned and controlled by the farmers?--A. Yes.
Q. And you would keep this cheese and feed it to the market?---A. Yes,
cheese and other perishable products.
By the Chairman:
Q. Is there anything to prevent farmers joining together and taking space
in the cold storage warehouses?--A. No, sir.
Q. Can you rent space?--A. Yes.
Q. There is cold storage in Montreal owned by the Harbour Commission,
that is I think not full?--A. That is what we are trying to bring about, an
organization by which we can make use of those facilities to our own advantage
and the advantage of the other fellow.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. What was the number you said you represent, was it 250,000? A. That
is practically all the dairymen of the Dominion. I say I represent practically, as
President of the National Dairy Council of Canada, all the dairymen of Canada.
Q. But you cannot, represent those who do not belong to your organiza-
tion.---A. Well, we are not an organization in the sense of the term that we
have individual members. We represent as the National Dairy Council the
industry as a whole. We are working in the interest of the man who does not
belong to any organization.
By the Chairman:
Q. What does your Council consist of? A. The .Council consists of repre-
sentatives of other bodies.
Q. And those bodies do not represent of course all the different persons in
their various lines of activity? A. Oh, no.
Q. But the Council represents the actual members of those different con-
stituent bodies, and is a self-constituted representative of those other people in
the country whose interests are identical with your own?--A. Yes, the activities
of the organization extend to every dairyman in the Dominion. For instance
the 20 per cent reduction in cream rates, every man gets it or should get it.
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. How many members are there of this Council?--A. About forty members.
By the Chairman:
Q. Name some of them will you?--A. Well, starting at home, there is the
Ontario Milk and Cream Producing Association, The Canadian Creamerymen's
Association, The Eastern and Western Dairymen's Association.
[Mr. Edward It. Stonehouse.]
598 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Sutherland:
Q. Would it not be possible for any factory for instance in Eastern Ontario
to get credit at a bank for their cheese in cold storage?--A. I think it would be
possible.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. What length of credit do you get?--A. Until the cheese is sold. Of course
this scheme is not in operation yet, but the policy of the organization is to
market the cheese continually.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. You are aware, Mr. Stonehouse, that they are advising the Western
farmer to go into dairying very considerably?--A. Yes.
Q. What effect will that have on you, when the larger production comes in,
and what effect on the price, and what effect will it have when the Western
iarmer wants to use his own bran and shorts, have you thought of that?--A.
"Yes. That is another reason why I am so anxious to clear up market conditions.
Do you mean the competition from the West?
Q. Yes.--A. I do not fear it. I think there is plenty of room. First in
egard to cheese; in this Dominion of Canada we are using less than three pounds
f cheese per capita per annum. In Britain they .e about 12.
Q. Should we put on a campaign to "eat more cheese?"--A. Yes sir, that is
what we are trying to do.
Q. What about the bran and shorts when we try to use our own out West?
A. Then we will have to grow our own roughages to a greater extent and we
can do that.
Q. That result will be inevitable?--A. Yes.
By the Chairman,:
Q. I suppose you are too young to remember, Mr. Stonehouse, but the
farlners have told me that about forty or fifty years ago the whole agricultural
economy of Eastern Canada had to change. In Quebec and Ontario they rew
wheat as a cash crop and they had to change their whole scheme of things and
I suppose what his forefathers have done the present farmer can do?--A. Yes.
If I had not one out of grain farmin and into dairying I would have been in
the poorhouse.
By Mr. Stthcrlad:
Q. Mr. Stonehouse apparently speaks for the most representative body of
dairymen we have in the country. Would it be possible to have a brief state-
ment from you with regard to the effect of oleomargarine on the dairy industry?
I mean its manufacture and importation?--A. I hardly know where to begin.
It is not lon since its importation and manufacture was not allowed in Canada.
What was for very ood and sufficient reasons no doubt. The reasons were that
this was a great dairy country, producing a dairy product in abundance, and
there was no necessity for it. And secondly the difficulty of regulation. In
the United States the question of regulation has been a very serious and
expensive one. When it cme to war time, and when fats were
so necessary overseas for the fighting men, the request was made
to the dairymen that the importation and manufacture of margarine be permitted
as a war measure. The dairylnen were as loyal as an)'one else, and we would
have eaten axle grease if necessary, but we pointed out the fact, the dairymen,
at that conference, when that was under discussion, of the serious difficulties
encountered in other countries through its admission and its mnufact,ure, and
[Mr. Edward H. Stonehouse.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 59
APPENDIX No. 3
we said, we are afraid of the same thing occurring in Canada. Therefore the
express promise was made by the Government of that day that it would be
permitted as a war measure only, and at the close of the war or one year after,
would be relegated to its former position. That was a distinct promise made
to the dairymen of Canada.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. By whom?--A. By the Government of that day. Since that, in spite of
the protests of the 250,000 dairymen that I mention, owing to the representa-
tions of two or three companies that have sta"ed to manufacture in Canada,
this course has been fastened on us, and is here to-day. We cannot understand
why the protests of 250,000 dairymen should be ignored, and the requests of a
couple of nmnufacturing concerns should be acceded to.
By the Chairman:
Q. Do you think that is quite a fair statement?---A. Yes, I think it is :Mr.
Chairman.
Q. Are there not very numerous demands from Local Councils of Women
and bodies of consumers thronh,mt the country, in the contrary sense? I am
not pre-judging the question, but I merely ask you if that is not so?--A. Of
course there have been those requests.
Q. Then the action of the Government was not determined merely by the
representations of the manufacturers of oleomargarine in continuing their liberty
to manufacture; I think there has been a public demand, how strong it is is a
question, for its admission.--A. We feel that there is no necessity for it, in the
first place; that we are producing a sufficient quantity, and we are exporting
large quantities of dairy products; why should weif we can call it a food
producthave it in this country in competition with dairy products, when
its food value is conceded to be a great deal less than our product, and when
it is so very difficult of regulation? It is coming on the market continually;
it is listed as a dairy productalthough it should never have been--and it is
being purchased and sold as a dairy product and used as butter. You can
regulate it from the manufacturer, but when you get it distributed through all
the eating houses in this country, it is an impossibility to regulate it or to con-
trot it in any shape or form.
By Mr. Clif]ord:
Q. Which would you rather have, a pound of good margarine or a pound of
poor butter? A. Rather than some butters such as were referred to a while ago.
Q. Have we not a lot of poor people, who work in mines and such like, who
cannot afford to pay 60 cents a pound for butter?A. Yes, and if the saving
were to go back to those poor people, well and good, but the saving is not given
to them. In the case of mines, and in other similar circumstances, the com-
pany purchases margarine and passes it over to the people as butter and the
people are forced to eat it who don't want to eat it, and the company very
often itself reaps the benefit.
By the Chairman:
Q. Are there not a lot of poor people in towns who feel they cannot afford
good butter and buy margarine to spread on their bread?
Suppose they can afford marganne, and cannot afford good butter, would
you say they should do without the spread for their bread? A. :No I would
not say that at all.
[Mr. Edward H. Stonehouse.]
600 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. What would you say they should use on their bread?--A. As far as the
difference in price is concerned, they are getting better value in the butter they
buy than they are in the margarine they buy.
Q. Suppose the poor man's wife does not think so; if she thinks that she
is getting better value for her family in buying margarine at some cents a
pound cheaper than she could buy first rate butter--then Mr. Bouchard remarks
that she is wrong. Even suppose she is wrong, do you think the state should
say, You have got to buy butter, even though she would rather buy margarine?
--A. I think she should be protected.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. Protected against her own will?--A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Have you found, Mr. Stonehouse, that the prices at which you have
been able to buy milk have given you a profit in the last year or two?---A. Do
you refer now to my own business or to the business generally?
Q. Generally. Perhaps you are an exceptional man, who specializes? A.
Yes, I am, and I supply a specialized market. But as regards the average
dairyman over this province, he is not breaking even.
By Mr. Stlerland:
Q. How do you account for 6,396,000 pounds of butter being imported into
Canada last year?--A. There are certain seasons of the year when our produc-
tion is low. There is an ebb and flow of butter you know, but in the total we
are exporting butter from Canada.
Q. To many different countries, and yet we are importing nearly 7,000,000
pounds.--A. Yes.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Can we stop that, Mr. Stonehouse? When :New Zealand has got
more butter than she needs, she sends a shipload over here.--A. We cannot
stop that, no.
Q. You would not be in favour of levying a duty against butter coming in?
--A. :No, I am not a protectionist. I do not want protection at all. All we want
is fair play.
:Mr. SAL.S: Good.
The CHAmMA: Equal rights for all and special privileges for none?
Mr. SALES: Amen.
The CHAmMA: We will meet again to-morrow at half past ten.
Adjourned at 6 p.m., Thursday April 12, 1923, until 10.30 a.m., Friday,
April 13, 1923.
I-IoJSE OF COMMONS,
COhIMITTEE lo0I 268,
FRrDAY, April 13, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 10.30 a.m., the Chairman, Mr. McMaster, presiding.
The CHAmbrAY: I have received a letter from the Sergeant-at-Arms,
enclosing a letter from the manager of the Parliamentary restaurant, Mr.
[lr. :Edward H. Stonehouse.]
604 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. So that you are absolutely sure it would be worse now?--A. :No doubt
it would. To continue; to my mind the whole thing resolves itself into a ques-
tion of production. I am speaking for the districts that this particular work
covered. It is a question of production and of cheapening production on the
farms. These are the main points. There are several other points of course
attached to these particular ones, which may have their effect, such as trans-
portation, cost of machinery, maybe the cost of money, that is, interest on
money, and several other factors. If a man produces a little, it does not matter
much what we do for him or what he has to ask; if he has nothing for sale he
has no money to make.
That is a resume of the situation from our work. We found that the num-
ber of animals kept for farms is not as large as it might be, and that they are
not as profitable as they might be. This involves the question of better stock,
better feediag and the growing of better crops. Once you have those three, then
there is grading and marketing, but in a word these are the three factors that
determine good or bad farming. The farms that were making an income were
in general those that had good stock and were growing good crops for their
cows, and were managed by the men who were best educated in this regard.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Did you make any appraisement in your own mind of the men at the
head of the farms?---A. As you intimate, the man is of first importance. If
I may illustrate that: in one county, one man was producing a cash crop apart
from general daiD" farming; his next neighbour, under the same conditions,
was making a very much smaller revenue. Both answered the questionnaire,
so I asked the man with the smaller income how it was that his neighbour
seemed to be making more money. I-Ie said, yes, since a few years ago they
have gone into this tobacco growing business and are making a lot of money.
I said, Why don't you produce some tobacco, and increase your revenue as
well? I-Ie had about the same size family and all that. He said, There is a
lot of work in connection with the tobacco business. There was his explanation.
So it is a question of education and industry.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Were these dairy farms that you had under observation?---A. Mostly,
yes. We had some farms which made dairying a sort of specialty, and which
had a lot of cows. Other farms were in dairying but had also a cash crop, such
as tobacco or fruit; and we had other farms nearer the city, which went into
truck farming alongside the dairy; then we had the regular mixed farming,
dairy farms and all kinds of stuff on the farm.
Q. I-Iave you any figures which would give us the returns from these
various types of farming?--A. Yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. I draw the Committee's attention to the fact that Mr. Bouchard has
handed round bulletin :No. 98 prepared by this witness and issued by the Federal
Department of Agriculture.
The WTNESS: No. 96 is the first one and 98 the second.
By Mr. Munro:
Q. Did the farms which you found most prosperous grow a larger propor-
tion of their own foed on the farm than the others?---A. Oh, yes, there is no
question about that. You will find that tabulated, in :No. 98 on page 22.
[lir. J. A. Ste. liarie]
606 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
poorest farms in making the totals for the averages shown in these cases;
otherwise, had the best and poorest farms been selected irrespective of
their source, different, but less representative averages would be shown.
The above explanations are necessary in order that the ader be afforded
a proper interpretation of results.
" The desired information was collected by using forms specially
prepared for the purpose. Most of the farmers realized the reason and
importance of this survey and were quite eager to supply the information
sought.
"Determination of the Labour Incon. The receipts from
all sources were itemized and when totalled together con,,.titute the gross
revenues of the farms."
That was Professor Lcitch's method, too, was it not?--A. Well I cannot say it
is particularly, but in the ])road lines, I think it was.
[r. ELLIOTT: I think these are on very much the same lines.
Bg t,c C.mh'man:
Q. " The expenditure of the farm was recorded under several items and the
sum total of those represent, the total expenses.
" The labour performed by sons of fourteen years of age or over was
charcd at the same rate as hired labour would have cost in that neigh-
bourhood, thereby placing all the farms on the same level in determining
the labour income.
" An annual depreciation charge of ten per cent was levied on
machinery and five per cent, on buildings and live stock.
" Interest on total capital was rated at six per cent."
Why did you take five per cent on live stock Mr. Ste. Marie?---A. The reason
we did that was to cover the farms as a whole. If you take a man dairying,
that does not rise his own stock, he has to re-supply his herd of cattle every
now and then.
Q. But surely a cow does not last for 20 years? A. I know, but had we
given the proper valuation on everything, the result would have been so bad we
would not have dared publish them you see.
Q. Is that the answer? Perhaps there is some other explanation?
Mr. Mt-.x'o: I submit that is not a fair representation if that was the way
it was gathered.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Did this five per cent not cover the whole of the herds that you had
under survey?---A. Yes.
Mr. ELLIOTT: That is the answer then.
Mr. -[AMMELL: Mr. Chairman, I think we can very well accept that,
because when a cow becomes useless as a milk producer, usually she is fitted
and sold for some other purpose, and that final sale would cover the difference
in depreciation.
Mr. SWE. MAim: Perhaps if you will pardon me I had better say, to your
obiection there, that by charging five per cent we take for granted a cow will
last for about ten years. Then she goes for beef. If you buy a good dairy cow
at $125 on the market, in those days when this survey was made, and then you
sell her at the end of ten years, you get $25 or $30 for the beef. So five per
cent would just about cover the amount of depreciation, to renew that stock.
[Mr. $. A. Ste.
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 609
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Did not the director of the Experimental Farm agree to this five per
cent? You discussed the question with him?---A. Yes.
Q. And he thought five per cent was sufficient?--A. I don't want to say
here that the director of the Experimental Farm would have undertaken to
replace the stock on a five per cent basis. I-Ie thought for this general survey
that five per cent might be a fair charge to interpret this part of the work.
The CHAmMAN: Possibly we are a little at cross-purposes. The five per
cent, if you lump together the stock and buildings is possibly fair enough, I
think five per cent is a little too much. allowance for the buildings and decidely
not enough for the stock.
Mr. TOLd'HE: Are you figuring all your stock before you begin with the five
per cent, not taking into consideration the fact that you have a lot of heifers
that are increasing in value, in addition to those which are going down the other
road?
Mr. ELLIOTT: Dr. Tolmie, they say the heifers are the more valuable.
:Mr. STE. IARIE: Although they are increasing in value, we came to the
conclusion in regard to this work, that the heifers that were growing were costing
as much to grow them as they were worth.
:Mr. TOLMIE: What kind of heifers do they grow?
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. They would be scrubs or grade heifers. It would not apply to pure-
bred?--A. Naturally not.
r. CALDWELL: With scrub or grade cattle that does apply.
{r. I-IAlkIlXIELL: The scrub is recognized to be no good anyway.
By the Chairman:
Q. Mr. Ste. Marie, I would like to get your view at this point as to whether
it would not be an excellent thing to have all the different investigators for
provinces, for the Dominion, and for agricultural colleges, to get together on a
standard formula for the purpose of collecting information?--A. Yes, that is
certainly a good suggestion.
Q. It is a practical suggestion, is it not?---A. Well, although it might be
in some cases, in others it might not. You must not forget that there are great
variations between provinces. We might be able to buy a good cow at $60
down below Ste. Annes; whereas the same cow transported to Western Ontario
or to the West would cost $120.
Q. That would not affect the principle of arriving at the labour income?--
A. No.
Mr. CA,DWE,L: The depreciation in value of stock, it would.
By the Chairman:
Q. The variation in price of the animals in different parts of the country
would not affect the method of arriving at your labour income on the farm.--
A. No.
The CHAmMAN: I think, gentlemen, that is one of the recommendations
we might make.
Mr. CADWE: Carried.
[r_r. $. A. te. Mrie]
3--39
616 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
" Similar surveys conducted in other provinces and in the United
States have revealed the fact that there are odd-sized farms which are
too large for one and too small for two men; others are too large for two
and too small for three men. On these odd-sized farms, with the excep-
tion of some on which specialization on some particular crop is practised
with success, large average labour incomes become possible only through
intensification of the system of farming and good farm management.
" The results of this survey would appear to confirm the findings
arrived at elsewhere and to demonstrate, through the above tables, that
the most advantageous size of farms to operate are one-man farms of
from 81 to 100 acres, two-men farms of from 141 to 160 acres and three-
men farms of 200 acres or more."
I would like to ask Mr. Elliott a question just at this point; are there not a lot
of fifty acre farms in Western Ontario?
Mr. ELLIOt:T: Not very many.
The CHAmMA" " The writer realizes that there are many factors affect-
ing the matter of advantageous size, such as type of farming followed,
nature of the soil of the farm, location, number and age of children,
available labour in district, and the knowledge and managerial ability
of the farmer."
Q. To return to Lake St. John for a moment, one reason why the people
there are able to pay such high prices for their farms is that they are prolific
in their families?---A. The farms are not supporting the farmers, the forests
are; they just make their living in the summer out of the farms.
hlr. SLES: Why include in this "number and age of children," what has
that to do with it?
The CAa: I could answer that question, and I think I will answer
it. A man might have a farm; he might be living on a 150 acre farm, which
would be really a two-man farm, but if he had two or three growing boys
between 12 and 18 years of age he might be able to do very well on that farm,
although he would be the only farmer on it.
Bg the Chairman:
Q. Is that the idea, Mr. Ste. Marie?--A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. How many farrSers have sons 18, 17, 16 or 15 years of age who are not
out working either on the father's farm or for some other farmer; you do not
call them chi]dren?--A. Your question is, how many have sons working on their
father's farm?
Q..They are considered men, not childrenl at that age?---A. Yes.
Q. I want to know why you put in "number and age of children"?A.
In what Bulletin is that, No. 96 or No. 98?
Q. It is in Bulletin :No. 98, at page 7.
The CnmMn: Starting with "The results of this survey" and ending
with "managerial ability of the farmer."
WXWESS: I have it here. This is the explanation. If a man is alone on
a farm of 120 acres, it is too small for him to hire a man and too large for one
man only. If he has some children, say 12 or 13 years old to help him along,
they can go to the cheese factory, they can help him and enable him to make
a profit. There are different factors, the size of the farm, the age of the children,
and all that sort of thing. In this particular survey, as I mentioned previously,
all the children 14 years and over were credited at the same rate as a man;
[Mr. $. A. Ste. Marie]
618 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
orders, -,hich give to people of very modest means an opportunity of obtain-
ing higher education at a very low cost. Possibly we are as favoured in that
regrd as any other part of Canada. We are as favoured in that regard as any
part of Canada. The religious orders, which belong of course to the denomina-
tion that the vast majority of the people belong to, have a number of devoted
men and women who give their time to teaching, for next to nothing; practically
their clothing, board and lodging. They are Catholic institutions. We have
some good boarding schools supported by the Protestant denominations but
the vast majority are Catholic. Then continuing on page
" The results obtained through the farm surv'ey of the above groups
yields the following information:--
" Percentages of farms receiving a plus labour income of $600
or more according to size:-
40 to 80 acres, 21 per cent.
81 to 100 acres, 38 per ecnt.
101 to 120 acres, 33 per cent.
121 to 140 acres, 35 per cent.
141 to 160 acres, 52 per cent.
161 to 180 acres, 48 per cent.
181 to 200 acres, 33 per cent.
200 and more acres, 50 p'er cent.
" These figures substantiate the claim made that there are certain
sized farms preferable to others, and further show that there are greater
possibilities of farms of large acreage making a larger labour income, and
also of providing a safe investment for capital which has a tendency to
increage in value. In studying the factors influencing the labour income
of the various groups, it will be noticed in table 1A, that the per cent
cost of total expenses rcm,in very nearly constant for all groups, the
greatest deviation from the average either up or down being 1-2 per cent,
regardless of capital invested or size of farms.
"It will also be noticed in this table that the average revenue per
animal unit, with the exception of two groups, is very nearly constant.
Further that the increased labour income obtained in some of the groups
of the various groups of farms studied is not explained by getting a pro-
portional increased revenue from cash crop sources, but by having a
larger number of animal units for a given number of acres, making pos-
sible an average gross per cent revenue exceeding the average total
expenses. The wider the margin the greater becomes the labour income.
Without going into the details of revenue or expenses, which are plainly
set out in the tables, the information obtained through this survey would
go to show, first, that certain sized farms arc to be preferred to others;
secondly, that there is a greater percentage of high labour income
obtained on the larger farms; and thirdly, that fair to high labour incomes
are possible on the smaller farms where good managerial ability is applied.
" In order to study the farming business, in different parts of the
province, and the farms following different types of farming, table II
has been prepared. The reader will kindly remember, as explained in the
preamble, that the farms supplying the information in the above table
were situated in four or five parishes surrounding the particular district
mentioned.
" It will be remarked that all districts, except that of St. Gideon
(Lake St. John) are making a small plus labour income. The general
average results obtained though slightly better, concur 'ith those obtained
[lh..I.A. Stc. Marie]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 621
APPENDIX No. S
" The group 'Dairy farming for city trade' includes farms which
produced milk which was sold for city consumption. Some additional
revenue was obtained from cash crops similar to those grown on the
farms of the other two groups, but the revenue from this source was
limited.
" The second group, 'I)airy farming plus a cash crop' takes in
farms that sold their milk through the butter or cheese factory and on
which seventy per cent of the cash crop revenue was composed of crops
not marketable through the live stock, such as clover seed, grass eed,
fruit, maple sugar, tobacco and vegetables.
" The third group, ' General Dairy :Farms,' comprises all farms not
entering in Groups 1 and 2, and of which, in most cases, the leading cash
crops were hay and grain."
:Now, in brief, what was the most profitable type between these three, Mr. Ste.
Marie? A. You will find a table IV-A and you will find that they are just
about equal; hardly any difference, .ust $200.
Q. $408 as compared with $6277---A. Yes.
Q. That is half as much again, a fifty per cent increase.---A. I might say
though that interpreting these factors, the farms that are dairying for city trade
include the best farms and the best farmers, and yet they are not making a
revenue in proportion to their ability and the quality of their farms. This is
due to the fact that they are specializing too much without specializing very
much. That is, they bring their revenue down to milk purely and simply, and
some of them are but the bulk are not, specially suited to milk production.
That is, they may have 20 cows but the general run of their cows produce just
four or five thousand pounds of milk; therefore that is all they have and they
are not specialists in milk production and their revenues are low in proportion
to their ability, because they are the farmers with the better homes and farms.
By Mr. Tolmie:
Q. What do you fire as the average of your dairy cows in pounds of
milk per year? A. It is something like 3,400 or 3,600.
Q. What do you call a profitable dairy cow in Quebec? How much should
she yield, supposing you started a herd with a pure grade bull and scrub cows,
what fire would you begin at first in the conditions that prevail now in
Quebec? A. I don't think that a cow yielding less than 5,000 pounds of milk
should be retained.
Q. She would be much better if she gave seven? A. Surely. The aim
should be about 8,000 pounds. But to start with we should aim at about 5,000.
Q. That is what you can get by good feed? A. Yes, this could be brought
about very quickly through better feeding with the present cows that they have.
Q. Do you find that there are still a large number of farmers who persist
in keeping three or four thousand pound cows?---A. Oh, yes.
By the Chairman:
Q. You have summed up that situation very well, it seems to me, Mr.
Ste. Marie, on page 17 at the end:--
"Every student of farm economics knows :--that where there are poor
cows on a dairy farm the revenue is correspondingly poor; that a liveli-
hood on such a farm is possible only by practising most rigid economy;
that improvements of any kind are practically impossible; that life under
these conditions becomes a burden; that funds with which to educate the
growing family are often lacking; and that the family often keep up the
farm instead of the farm keeping them. All of which breed discontent."
[Mr. J. A. Ste. lIarie|
622 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
That is very well put I think.
"Such conditions are expressed by an annual migration to the cities
of a very large number of boys and girls, who are totally unprepared for
the life of such centres, while the rural districts are deprived of citizens
the loss of whom can be ill afforded. Undoubtedly much of this undesir-
able condition may be laid at the door of the scrub bull."
Ir. S._LES: You might supplement that, lkr. Chairman, with the statement
on page 23: :No. 9 in the general summary.
"That the scrub bull is causing the Province an annual loss of well
over $10,000,000 at a very low estimate."
When that is carried out all through this Dominion, you can see what an expen-
sive animal the scrub bull is.
By Mr. Tolmie:
Q. After your view of the whole situation, do you form any opinion as to
any new means or methods of getting to these men who persist in keeping scrub
cattle? Should it be a matter of education, or is there any short cut?--A. I
might say that while at Ottawa and down at Ste. Annes, we have done a great
deal of lecture work in different centres, and at Ste. Anncs we have charge of
20 illustration stations which cover many districts, naturally it is a question of
education, there is no doubt about that. But at the same time it is not edu-
cation only of the average farmer; it is also education of the purebred breeder.
we come across scores of farmers and societies who have bought purebred bulls,
as they supposed, but they were only scrubs. The results were that these
supposed purebred bulls did not cause any improvement but caused depreciation
]n the herds. Then the farmers said, what is the use of paying for purebred bulls
when what we have is ust as good. So that is to a certain extent the situation.
Nevertheless it is certainly important that improvement be made if they are to
remain on their farms, and retain what they have. In my opinion it could be
brought about in this way: First, some means should be devised to increase
production, and that will mean cheaper production as well; the two will go
together.
Secondly, better breeding.
The larger production of the farm crops and better breeding, so as to have
better cows to be fed with these better crops. These are the two things that
must be undertaken. As far as the crops are concerned, it is a question of edu-
cation. That is a big subject, and we think we have done a good deal to edu-
cate the agricultural class as a whole, whereas I think we have hardly touched
the subject. As an instance as far as Quebec is concerned we have several
departments where we are doing a certain amount of extension work. We have
the Provincial Department, where an economist is located in the centres, this
particular economist may have 15, 20, or 30 parishes in his county, and he is the
man in charge of I don't know how many farmers, but I presume the average
parish represents about 200 farmers, and if he lms 15 or 20 parishes the result
is that two or three agricultural lectures are given in the course of the year and
maybe ten per cent of the farmers attend those lectures. Then there is the farm
press. In a word, the bulk of the farmers are not reached in a very efficient way.
Of course that would mean more men, better press, better organization to reach
everybody. Then apart from that in doing extension work, unless a man is
rganized to do effective eension work, well there again his lectures do not go
as far as they should. If I might single one topic, for instance; we are talking
of improving the grade or standard of our cows, displacing the scrub bull. There
is very little specific information available to put in the hands of this particular
man to send to the farmers.
[Mr. J. A. 8te. Marie]
624 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14. GEORGE V, A. 1923
By Mr. Tolmie:
Q. While that is important, it might work an injustice in some cases, for
instance you might have as good a heifer out of a high class cow, and her sire
of the same quality, and yet the heifer might suffer a loss of one quarter through
an accident or an affection of the udder. You could not very well get a large
record from her for anything like her dam?--A. That is a question of adjust-
ment. :In the case of a heifer, the sire and dam and grand-dam, if they were
qualified, that might be far enough back.
Q. You would have to set a well worked out standard?---A. Yes, naturally.
Q. Are your farmers in Quebec taking advantage of the Federal Govern-
ment Bull Distribution system?--A. Yes, they are to a certain extent but they
are not enthusiastic in that regard. It does not seem to work very well in
prsctice.
Q. :In British Columbia in the outlying sections, they have rendered a very
valuable service, particularly where the farmer is cutting a farm out of the
bush. and could not think of purchasing a sire, but by getting the services of a
good sire they accumulate a good herd.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. According to table 7, there are less than fifty per cent of your farmers
using pure bred bulls--A. You will note there that it is mentioned that they
had or were using the services of a purebred sire. If a man only took his cow
to a purebred sire we said he availed himself of that service. Whereas ten per
cent of farmers having purchased bulls would be high.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Would you favour a system of compulsory castration of all undesirable
bulls?--A. :I would not object, but I don't think the public would take to that
at all.
Q. You don't think the farmers are ready for it?---A. :No, I don't think
compulsory measures work well with the people. There are other means that
work very much better, such as education.
Q. But much slower?--A. Yes, but it is the best in the long run, I think.
Q. You are speaking of an education campaign. Do you think we are
spending too much in trying to reach farmers who will not either read the press
or attend the lectures; might we not reach them more effectively by educating,
in the public schools, the young boys and girls who, to-morrow will be the men
and women?---A. :No, I don't think so. I had the opportunity of lecturing a
good deal this winter, and wherever we went, despite cold weather and storms,
we had crowded halls. That shows that they are arxious for information, and
they don't get enough of it.
Q. Would it not be easier to reach the masses by getting into the schools
and getting it into the young minds, while they are fertile, so that they will not
lose it?--A. Then the question arises of how to get it into the schools.
Q. That is the point. Are we making enough effort to get it into schools?--
A. I am not prepared to say. I know we are not doing a great deal of that.
We have the school gardens and ali that, but that might mean ten or fifteen
years yet before we get results. And if we don't get results before ten or fifteen
years, lots of things are bound to happen between now and then.
Q. We have been trying for 20 years to do this very thing you are speaking
about, and we are not getting very far yet; whereas, if we had started 20 years
ago to get into the young minds, we might have been nearer our object to-day
than we are?--A. Yes. but I doubt if we have been making a real effort in a
[Mr. J. A. Ste. Marie]
626 PECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Q. Why should he not have interest on his capital? If your father left
you a house, you would not let someone live in it rent free?--A. :No, but we
have to take the situation as it is.
Q. Why should not the same cold-blooded business principle be applied to
the investment in a farm as in anything else?--A. The best reply I can give to
that is that of industrial productmn; it does not matter if it is from the mine,
the forest or the factory, it is generally sold on the cost of production plus profit
basis; whereas on the farms the goods are sold for what the farmer is offered;
he has to take what he can get; he does not set the price, he cannot organize it.
It is the same thing the world over.
By Mr. Sales:
Q. Exactly. There is no organization; the farmers are an unorganized
body surrounded on all sides by organized bodies who set their own prices at the
cost of production plus profit?--A. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions? If not, I am sure we
are very much obliged to Professor Ste. Marie.
Then it has been moved by Mr. Sinclair, seconded by Mr. Munro, and
ordered :-
That hIessrs. J. A. Clark, Superintendent Experimental Station, and A.
E. Dewar, farmer and fruit gro-er, both of Charlottetown, Prince Edward
Island, be summoned to give evidence before this Committee on a date to be
set by the Chairman.
We will resume at half past ten on Monday.
hIr. SALES: Just a moment, hIr. Chairman, before you adjourn. I thought
we were going to draw up a Interim Report.
]{Ir. HAMIIELL: It is left to the Chairman to do that.
The CHAmMAN: :NO, I would have to submit it to the Committee. The
only subject we are ready to report on is Ocean Freights. I have not got it
ready.
Mr. SLES: In making that, Air. Chairman, I would like to mention one
suggestion, that it was proved over and over again by the witnesses that the
matter of return cargoes from Great Britain must be considered in determining
a rate. If it appeals to the members of the Committee, I think that a refer-
ence to an increase in the British preference should certainly be made.
The CHAIRtAN: I have no objection to bringing that in and we will discuss
it.
Mr. ELLIOTT: That is a very debatable point, Mr. Sales.
The CHAmMAN: It will be debated, but that is the purpose I will endavour
to bring it in as early as I can in the week. I wish I could promise definitely
for Monday.
Adiourned until 10.30 a.m. Monday, 16th April, 1923.
l:IoJsE oF COMMONS,
COMITTEE ROOM NO. 268,
MONDAY 16th April, 1923.
The Special Committee appointed to inquire into Agricultural conditions
throughout Canada met at 10.30 a.m., Mr. McMaster, the Chairman, presiding.
[Mr. J. A. Ste-Marie.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 627
APPENDIX No. 3
JOHN WILLIAM WARD: Called and Sworn.
By the Chairman:
Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Ward?--A. I am the secretary of the
Canadian Council of Agriculture. .
Q. Any other occupation?--A. :No, sir.
Q. You come here representing the Council?-A. Yes. I am a member of
a committee that was appointed by the Canadian Council of Agriculture at a
meeting held in Toronto on the 27th to the 31st of March, and I was appointed
by the Council to lay before this Committee the views of the Council with
regard to the condition of agriculture.
Q. Then you probably have something prepared to lay before us, and if we
follow our usual practice we will ask you to briefly state your case, and then
as you go on, or after you have finished, we will ask you some questions. You
will realize, _Mr. Ward, that we have had a vast deal of evidence, and it might
be well to condense as much as possible. However, I do not want to hamper
you or limit you in any way in the presentation of your case.-A. Air. Chair-
man, I have followed the evidence that has been given here as far as I could by
reading the evidence and also in some cases by attending and I think it has been
demonstrated to you already that agriculture is in an unsatisfactory condition so
far as the remuneration of the producer is concerned and I desire to point out
two important factors which have contributed to the present state of affairs,
and I desire also to suggest a remedy.
In the first place I wish to deal with the increase in the cost of production
which is caused by the protective tariff.
Put in the fewest possible words the grievance which the farmers whom I
represent have against the tariff is this: That the farmer sells his main products
in the open ma:kets of the world and in competition with the world, but when
he comes to buy his implements of production and the necessities of life he must
buy in a protected market and pay artificially enhanced prices.
I submit that the protective tariff as we have it in Canada today imposes
a serious and unnecessary burden upon the farmer, that it increases his cost of
production very materially, and that it has reduced his profits under present
conditions to the vanishing point.
I submit that this is unjust to the farmer and that the development and
prosperity of Canada are being hampered by the present system of tariff pro-
tection.
We object to protection on principle. We object to it not only because it
hurts our own pockets and has helped very materially to make the agricultural
industry unprofitable, but we object to it because it is class legislation--because
it is deliberately designed to benefit one section of the people at the expense of
others.
I have endeavoured to secure for the information of the Committee some
fi.,zure_ showing the extent of the burden which is placed upon the farmers of
Calmrla by the tariff.
Agricultural Implements
Dealing first with agricultural implements, I find that the report of the
Departmcnt of Customs and Excise for the year ending March 31, 1921, shows
that the imports of dutiable goods classified as farm equipment in that year
totalled $11,425,848 on which duty was collected amounting to $1,917,369.67
which was at the average rate of 16.78 per cent.
3--40t [Mr. J, W. Wrd.]
628 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
By the Chairman:
Q. Let me interrupt you here. You say "classified as farm equipment."
What does that include? Perhaps you have it later on, but the phrase "farm
equipment" to me is a little vague.--A. There is a heading, in the customs
report, "farm equipment," and I have taken that item. It is given on page 28(}
of the Annual Report of the Department of Customs and Excise for 1921-22.
Would you like me to read the items?
Q. Yes, I think so, because farm equipment might go all the way from a
mower down to the equipment of the farm kitchen for instance.-A. The items
included under that heading which I have reference to are:--
Binding attachment.
Cream separators, steel bowls for.
Crcam separators.
Cultivators and weeders, parts of.
Machines, tra.ction, detached, not being plows, adapted for tile drainage
on farms, valued retail at not more than $3,000 each and parts
thcreof for rcpairs.
Drills, seed.
Portable engines with boilers in combination for farm purposes.
Repairs for traction engines, gas or gasoline for farm purposes valued at
not more than $1,400 including automobile traction attachments.
Traction engines, gas or gasoline for farm purposes valued at not more
than $1,400 in the country of production.
Traction engines for farm purposes, n.o.p.
Fanning mills.
Fodder or feed cutters.
Forks pronged.
Grain crushers.
I[arrows and parts of.
Harvesters, self binding.
Hay loaders.
Hay presses.
Hay tedders.
Hoes.
Horse rakes.
Knives, hay or straw.
Knives, edging.
Lawn mowers.
Manure spreaders.
Mowing machines.
Plows and parts of.
Posthole diggers.
lotato diggers.
Rakes, n.o.p.
Reapers.
Rollers, farm, road or field.
Scythes.
Sickles or reaping hooks.
Spades and shovels of iron or steel n.o.p.
Threshing machine separators.
Threshing machine separators, parts of, including wind stackers, baggers,
weighers and self feeders therefor, finished parts thereof when
imported separately.
Windmills and complete parts therefor.
Parts of agricultural implements, or other agricultural implements.
[Ida. J. W. Ward.l
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 629
APPENDIX No. 3
These are the items ineluded there.
This gives us item To. 1 in the inereased cost of agrieultural implements
caused by the tariff, but it by no means represents the whole of the addition to
the eost of implements resulting from proteetion.
In the first plaee, there must be added the profits of the importer and
dealer upon the duty paid. When the importer brings in an artiele whieh costs
him $100 and pays a duty of $20 upon it, he must naturally obtain a profit upon
$120 instead of $100. If only one profit of $25 is added, $20 beeomes $25. That
gives us item To. 2, dealers' profit on duty, 25 per eent of $1,917,369.67 or
$479,342.42.
In the ease of agrieultural implements, I submit that there is also justifica-
tion for the claim that the priee of the home manufactured artiele is also inereased
approximately to the same extent as that of the imported maehine. In other
words I claim that if the duties were redueed or removed altogether, implements
manufactured in the United States would be reduced in priee and Canadian
manufaeturers would be eompelled by competition to reduce their priees by an
equal amount. I am not asserting that all manufaeturers inerease their priees
by the amount of the tariff.
By Mr. Stansell:
Q. If I may interrupt, in connection with the reduction of duties, if there
was no tariff between the two countries, how would you prevent a gigantic com-
bine between the manufacturers on both sides of the line to fix their prices,
would not that be possible?--A. I presume anything is possible, sir, but I do
not see any reason why we should not be able to buy implements from the
United States lust as we do to-day except that there would not be any duty.
Q. It is quite possible that if there were no national boundaries or restric-
tions there might be a world-wide combine which would be more detrimental
to the people than the present condition, under the tariff?--A. A combination
would be more difficult if it had to include all the manufacturers in the United
States and Canada. That would be much more difficult than simply a combine
of Canadian manufacturers.
Q. Possibly it would, but if a reduction of the duties operated as the
friends of the tariff say it would, enabling a big manufacturer on the other side
to put the smaller concerns on this side out of business, when they had only one
manufacturer left on this side it would be very easy to get him to co-operate
with them and we would have one combine in the place of two.
Mr. CALDWELL: If I might interject, Mr. Chairman, I think that is an
argument that has been ridden to death.
The CAnA: I think in fairness to Mr. Stansell that questions should
be answered, and then i' you wish to make any observations, I will not prevent
you, Mr. Caldwell. But I think that any discussion should take place between
the witness and the questioner. A. I do not think there is anything in that. I
do not see any reason why taking the tariff off should cause a combine. There
are two or three things that are imported into Canada free of duty, that con-
cern the agricultural industry; there is the cream separator; I do not know that
there is a combine of the manufacturers of cream separators, to put anyone out
of business. And we get our twine free of dutv and there is real.competitiou
between the manufacturers of twine in the United States, Canada, and other
parts of he world, and the result is that twine is very little higher in price now
than it was before the war, but agricultural implements are very much higher.
By Mr. Stasel:
Q. I ara not trying t rove the great advantage of the tariff. I am not
a very high tariff nan, but ] want to find a remedy for existing conditions, and
[hlr. J. W. Ward.l
630 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
to be sure that the remedy is not worse than the disdase, and knowing that
human nature is always the same, I wanted to know what your opinion was
as to the removal of all tariff barriers whether there would be a danger of what
I have said?---A. Well, nay answer is that I do not think so.
In the case of agricultural implements, however, there is good reason
for making this claim--that the price of the Canadian-made machine has
increased by the amount of the duty--because if Canadian machinery were
cheaper than that which comes from the United States, farmers would naturally
purchase Canadian machinery almost exclusively and imports would practi-
cally cease. Instead of that being the case, prices of Canadian-made and
imported implements are practically equal, and itnports from the United States
continue in large volune.
By the ChaT;rma:
Q. Just there, can you tell the Committee whether or not there are duties
imposed on these articles going into the United States or whether they go in
there free?--A. I am not sure, sir, what the new tariff in the United States is
on that.
Q. The new tariff was not in force in the year ending March 31st, 19217
--A. Well, I do not remember what the American tariff was. I have not
looked that up.
hlr. C.-J.D,VELL: That is on farm machinery.
The C-R^: I do not think there was any but I was wondering whether
the witness knew.
The WIT!'/ESS: I do not remember.
By Mr. Stansell:
O. What effect would it have if the remedy you propose, the removal of
the tariff, were applied, and the American tariff still remained as it is, over
which we have no control? That is taking down the tariff on imports of
machinery or anything else under that head, the tariff that the Americans have
in force being rather high, would that be beneficial to business in Canada?--A.
The first result of that would be, that we should have a lower cost of living in
this country than hey have in the United States, if we had no duties and they
had a high tariff, and the result would be that we would have a lower cost of
producti(, and our mnufacturers would be in a very advantageous position
to beat the American manufacturers in the markets of the world.
'r. CALDWELL: I believe there is no duty on farm implements going from
Canada to the United States.
The CHhIRMAN: I have asked the Secretary to go to the library, and get
the last tariff and the Underwood Tariff. We will get the facts as to whether
there is or is not; I think there is none.
Mr. CALDWELL: I would like to continue this question, Mr. Chairman, if I
might, in view of the fact that the question will go on the record, and the reply
to it. The witness is not advocating the takin of the duty off everything com-
ing from the United States, he is in favour of the taking off of the duty on farm
implements. Would he advocate, in view of the high tariff on some goods
coming from the United States, while they pay no duty on goods going to the
United States, the taking off of the tariff, or some of it; if there was a high duty
going to the United States: the condition would or might be different.
[Mr. J. W. Ward.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 631
APPENDIX No. 3
By Mr. Stasell:
Q. If you consider only agricultural implements, how would you decrease
the cost of production of our manufactured goods, if this only applies to agri-
cultural implements?--A. If you would hear what I have to say on that matter,
perhaps your questions would be better or more applicable. If you will let me
finish this matter of the tariff, I think it would be as well, because I will deal
with some of the things you are asking me about.
Mr. STANSELL: I thought it better to go through with it, since the question
was raised.
By ]tr. Caldwell:
Q. You spoke of free imports of agricultural implements. Do you propose
to deal with that later on? A. Yes.
Q. If you do not, I would like you to tell us what you include in free
materials--raw or finished materials? A. Both.
The C/-IAIRMA/T: AS the witness has a carefully prepared written statement,
I think we had better let him read it, and there will be certain questions which
suggest Shemselves to us, which may be answered in the latter part of his
remarks.
[r. CALDVCELL: I was referring to that myself; if one is allowed to ask
questions another should be allowed to ask questions too.
The C:HAIRMAN: We will all impose this rule upon ourselves, and the Chair-
man will follow his own ruling.
WITNESS: The farmer then not only pays the duty on imported machinery
and the dealers' profit on the duty but also an equal amount in added cost when
he buys Canadian-made implements.
A report prepared by the Mining, Metallurgical and Chemical branch of the
Dominion Bureau of Statistics, published in 1922, shows that the products of
the agricultural group of manufactures in Canada in the calendar year 1920 were
valued at $50,301,302. This total includes $1,683,634 worth of cream separators
which are not dutiable, and if this item be eliminated the total production is
$48,617,668. Turning again to the Customs report we find that in the year
ending March 31, 1921, exports of agricultural implements totalled $12,647,602,
or excluding cream separators ($157,208) $12,490,394. Subtracting exports
from the Canadian production, excluding cream separators in each case, we find
that there was an apparent consumption of Canadian-made implements of a
class which when imported are subject to duty, to the value of $36,127,274.
The average tariff rate of 16.78 per cent applied to this figure gives us $6,062,-
156.57, which is item :No. 3 which the farmer had to pay in the increased cost
of his implements, and adding again 25 per cent of this for the dealers' profit we
get item :No. 4, $1,515,539.14. The four items I have given total $9,974,407.80,
which I estimate as the increased cost to the farmer of agricultural implements
bv reason of the tariff in one year. This by the way is 5.2 times as much as
tt'm Dominion Government received in revenue from the duties on agricultural
implements.
Does the implement industry need protection? Even if we were to admit
for the sake of argument that a tariff may sometimes be iustified in order to
protect infant industries and enable them to become established, I submit that
even on this ground the agricultural implement industry has long ago reached
the stage where its protection is no longer necessary. Perhaps the best test that
can be applied in order to ascertain whether or not an industry is able to stand
on its own feet and meet competition on equal terms, is an examination of the
figures of imports and exports. If we find that the products of Canadian fac-
[Mr. J. W. Ward.]
632 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
tories are being sold abroad in competition with the goods of other countries, it
is a fair inference that they could also he sold in this country under similar con-
ditions. The reports of the Customs Department show the folowing figures with
regard to farm equipment:
Year ending Free
March 31 Imports
1921 ........ $13,092,094
1922 ........ 2,501,661
Dutiable
Imports Exports
1,425,848 $12,647,602
5,270,058 5,372,127
An examination of the detailed figures shows that in the fiscal years 1921
and 1922, exports considerably exceeded imports in seven of the principal imple-
ments used on Canadian farms. The figures are as follows:
Year ending March 31, 1921:-
Imports
Harvesters and binders ........ $1,001,575
Plows and parts of ........
Mowing machines ..........
Cultivators and weeders ......
Seed drills ..............
Harrows and parts of .......
Rakes (horse and n.o.p.) ....
Year ending March 31, 1922:--
]Exports
$2,826,657
2,526,503 3,628,386
79,275 1,005,453
117,170 488,133
211,580 421,899
382,770 355,339
45,468 168,453
Harvesters .............. $ 319,807
Plows and parts of ......
Mowing machines ........
Cultivators ............
Seed drills ..............
Rakes ................
Harrows and parts of ......
Imports l.xports
$ 449,013
554,846 1,465,919
36,143 369,762
62,695 180.280
38,079 500.084
8.095 49,353
71,178 134,335
The Customs report also shows the countries to which these Canadian-made
implements were exported. In the fiscal year 1921, our Canadian manufctur-
.ers sent plows to the value of $1,229,852 to the United States. Of cultivators
they sent $163,414 worth to Australia, $112,519 worth to :France and $94,273
worth to the United States. Of drills they sent $111,206 worth to Australia
and $193,641 worth to Argentina. Of harrows they sent $43,878 worth to. the
United States and $88,013 worth to Australia. Of harvesters (the Customs
department calls a binder a harvester} they sent $300,889 worth to the United
Kingdom, $730,248 worth to Australia, $929,602 worth to France, $257,071
worth to Spain and $389,928 worth to the United States.
In the face of these facts it is difficult to understand how it is possible to
justify the continuance of protective duties on agricultural implements imported
into Canada. If our Canadian manufacturers can sell their implements in
Australia, in France, in Spain, in the United Kingdom, in Argentina and even
in the United States in competition with manufacturers in those countries and
in all parts of the world, surely they can meet the same competitors, and meet
them successfully, in Canada. We have indeed the evidence of one of the
largest if not the largest implement company in Canada that they do not need
protection. The late Mr. Thomas lindley, then President of the Massey-Harris
Company, giving evidence before the Tariff Commission at Winnipeg, September
14th, 1920, said:
"So far as the Massey-Harris Company is concerned, even to-day
placing no other consideration in the scales but that of money-making,
IMr. J. W. Ward.]
634 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
Let me interject here, Mr. Chairman, to say that it has been suggested
that there is one place to which the farmer can pass on his increased cost, that
is. to his wife and family, who work without wages and even the necessities
of life.
A burden on idstry
The protective tariff is generally supposed to be a benefit to our manufac-
turing industries, but I submit that it is not an unmixed blessing even to them.
It is true that the tariff schedules have been drawn up in such a way as to impose
as little burden as possible upon the manufacturer, and that raw materials and
partly finished products when imported for use by manufacturers come in
either free or at rates of duty much below the average. The manufacturers
;nevertheless pay considerable amounts in import duties, and their cost of
nanufacturing is increased by reason of the fact that it is carried on in a
protected country and because the cost of living of their employees is increased
by the tariff. When his goods are sold in the home market the protected
manufacturer is no doubt able to amply recoup himself by he higher price
which protection--and sometimes combination--enables him to secure, but the
manufacturer who produces for export suffers the disadvantages, without getting
the advantages, of protection.
It. would be difficult to give an exact figure as to the increase in the cost
of living and of commodities generally which results from the tariff. We know,
however, from the Customs returns that the average rate of duty collected
on all imports, dutiable and free, for the year ending March 31, 1922, was
16.25 per cent. The average rate on dutiable goods was 24.51 per cent. On raw
materials and goods not ready for consumption, the duties are below the average,
and on finished goods such as the consumer purchases, the average is of course
higher. I believe that it would be a fair statement that the cost of everything
which we buy in this country is at least 20 per cent higher on the average than
it would be if there was no protective tariff. This means that for every dollar's
worth of wheat which the farmer sells he gets only 80 cents worth of com-
modities and services in return. It means that the wage earner who gets $20
a week can only buy $16 worth of food, clothing, shelter and amusements
with his money. It means that the manufacturer whose plant costs a million
lollars a year to operate is paying $200,000 a year more than is necessary. It
means that the whole national income is depreciated in its purchasing power
by 20 per cent of the total.
Tari]] Redction Proposed
I do not think the Committee would wish me to go into details as to the
changes which the farmers whom I represent desire to see made in the present
tariff law, but I may say that in general terms what we immediately seek is:
A substantial, all round reduction of the Customs tariff on the necessities
of life.
An increase in the British preference.
Reciprocity with the United States along the lines of the 1911 agreement.
Free importation of agricultural implements, fertilizers, lumber, cement,
illuminating, fuel and lubricating oils, and of all raw materials and machinery
used in the manufacture of these things.
Vehicles I find I have missed, but that item should go in after Agricultural
Implements. It is meant to be agricultural vehicles.
Just here I think it is important to consider the first clause, a substantial,
all round reduction of the Customs tariff on the necessities of life, because if
[Mr. J. W. Ward.]
636 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V7 A. 1923
that would be an advantage to our manufacturers. They are now striving to
increase their foreign markets; the Government is endeavouring to assist them,
we have trade agents all over the world, we spend a lot of money improving the
harbours and channels of navigation and so on to increase our foreign trade.
The more we can do to reduce the cost of producing goods in this country, the
more easily our manufacturers will be able to get into foreign markets and in-
crease their trade there. I am speaking now to a Committee that is dealing with
the conditions of agriculture generally, not the condition of the manufacturing
industry. I ,n here to say that the tariff increases the cost of production; I
believe that is something you want to get at, and if it is agreed that the tariff
does increase the cost of production, the question is whether that is not a reason
why you should recommend that the tariff be reduced. I do not see any .iustic
in it. The tariff in effect is a tax upon the farmer--I am speaking of the farmer,
although this may apply to others, it is a tax upon the farmer presumably for t he
benefit of the manufacturer, and I say that there is no justice in a tax imposed
upon one section of the comnmnity for the benefit of another. It is to save the
business of this country. The tariff is also preventing immigration into this
country. If settlers could come into this country and buy their machinery, their
food, their clothing, the material for their houses, and everything else at a lower
cost, there would be more people coming into this country, and they would have a
better chance of making a living when they get here than they have at the
present time, and from the point of view of the agricultural industry, there is an
unjust and unnecessary burden placed upon us. That is the position I take.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Mr. Ward, do you know what the average tariff in the United States
is?--A. I do not know.
Q. Is it higher than the Canadian average?--A. I don't know. I know the
proportion of the revenue the United States enjoys from the tariff is very much
smaller than ours.
Q. You spoke of cheapening the cost of production as a result of the
lowering of the tariff?A. Yes, sir.
Q. Also of the effect it would have upon the cost of living?--A. Yes.
Q. You will admit I think that the average cost of living is lower in the
United States than it is in Canada?--A. Yes.
Q. Also that the cost of living is lower in Great Britain than it is in
Canada?--A. I believe it is.
Q. Can we hope to reduce the cost of living--I am not speaking of the
people but as a class--to the level of what it is in Great Britain and what it
is in the United States, owing to our peculiar conditions?--A. Practically I
think we could reduce it to the level of the United States. It is true that
the United States is a highly protected country; here in Canada we buy
from a highly protected country, and we put on another protection, so that
we pay high tariff prices to the United States plus the Canadian tariff, and
a great deal of our imports of course come from the United States, because
their country is somewhat similar to ours, and they produce the kind of goods
we need. We pay high prices caused by the tariff, and on top of that we put
our own tariff.
By Mr. Caldwell:
Q. I would like to ask you this question; have you any figures along the
line of the duty free raw material imported by the manufacturer; is it not
a fact that the Canadian manufacturer to-day virtually enioys free trade
owing to the fac that the raw material is brought into his factory; he imports
[Mr. J. W. Ward.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 637
APPENDIX No. 3
iron and steel and nearly all the raw material used in the manufacture of
farm implements either duty free or he gets a rebate of about 99 per cent
of what he pays?--A. Yes. The duties on raw materials and partly finished
goods are very much lower, and in very many cases they are free, and we
frequently find in the tariff a certain article when imported by the manufac-
turers for use in their factories free, but if you or I imported the same article
we would pay the duty upon it. The manufacturer imports his raw material
free, then applies a certain amount of labour to it, and produces an article
which is protected by the duty, so that the protection he gets is really con-
siderably more than it appears to be. If he buys one dollar's worth of raw
material and puts one dollar's worth of work upon it, and the duty is 25 per
cent, the protection there is 50 per cent, while he has only done one dollar's
worth of work he has one-half of his article duty free, and he really also has
protection to the extent of 50 per cent, whereas the tariff is only 25 per cent.
By Mr. McKay:
Q. Is it a fact that the farmer gets all his raw material in duty free?---A.
:Not all his material is free. The manufacturers import quite a lot of things in a
partly manufactured condition.
By the Chairman:
Q. You stated in your memorandum that it increases the cost of production
to the manufacturer, because he pays a daaty on some of his raw material; is it
not a well known fact that one man's finished article is another man's raw
material?--A. Yes.
Q. The raw material of the man who makes up ready-made clothes is the
final product of the mills that make wool, silks and so forth?--A. Yes.
Q. You were asked a question as to the rates upon agricultural implements
and machinery going into the United States. The clerk has kindly brought from
the librarv the tariff law of the United States known as.the Underwood Bill.
The free iist is published on page 833 of Kelly's Customs Tariffs of the World
of 1915, and reads as follows:--
"Agricultural Implements: Plows, tooth and disc harrows, headers,
harvesters, reapers, agricultural drills and planters, horserakes, cultiva-
tors, threshing machines, cotton gins, machinery for use in the manufac-
ture of sugar, waggons and parts, and all other agricultural implements
of any kind and description, whether specifically mentioned herein or not
and whether in whole or in parts, including repairs parts."
That was the Under'ood tariff. Now I turn to the last Tariff Act of 1922,
and we find on the free list, which is published on page 360 of the United States
Supplement, :No. 23, the following free list:-
" Agricultural Implements: Plows, tooth and disc harrows, headers,
harvesters, reapers, agricultural drills, planters, mowers, horserakes, cul-
tivators, threshing machines, cotton gins, machinery used in the manu-
facture of sugar, waggons and parts, cream separators valued at not more
than $;50, and all other agricultural implements of any kind or description
not specially provided for, whether in whole or in parts, including repair
parts, provided that no article specified by name in Title I shall be free
of duty under this paragraph."
Those would be articles which were not specially declared to be free, but
would be declared to be taxed under the first article of the tariff, which is duti-
able goods. The tariff is divided into Title I schedules and Title II free list.
[llr. J. W. Ward.]
638 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
There is this blanket clause, All other agricultural implements of any kind and
description not specially provided for, whether in whole or in parts, including
repair parts, provided that no article specified by name in Title I shall be free
of duty under this paragraph.
We will look up and see plows, for instance; if plows are specified as being
dutiable. P.lows are in the one I have read; they will not be dutiable. I think
we may say that generally speaking agricultural implements go into the United
States free of duty, and no doubt that explains why there are certain importa-
tions of agricultural implements manufactured in Canada going into the United
States. I would imagine that it would come down to a question of freight rates,
that the International Harvester's plant at Hamilton could supply certain parts
to northern New York as cheaply as the Harvester plant at Chicago, if they
have one--and I think they have--I think it is their headquarters, and as far
as imports into the United States are concerned, the United States farmer can
draw upon Canada for his manufactured implements, his agricultural implements.
The Canadian International Harvester Company is owned by the same interests
as in the United States. I think that is the case.
The CAmIAN: It would attract business to those plants where the dis-
tributing of the implements could be done in the cheapest manner.
Mr. CALDWELL: Mr. Chairman, another item I would like to add if it is
possible, while you have the United States tariff before you: the duty on
boots and shoes going from Canada to the United States. And also a third
item; fertilizer.
By Mr. Elliott:
Q. Mr. Ward, in view of the statement the Chairman has iust read, do
you know the price of Canadian machines in the United States? Say the
Canadian binders sold to the consumer in the United States, as compared with
the price in Canada?--A. I do not know of my own knowledge what the price
of implements is in the United States.
Mr. HLL: That would be very important to know?--A. Yes. In
order to get those facts in a satisfactory way, I think you will have to get
someone who can speak with authority. For instance someone from the Inter-
national Harvester Company.
Q. We could get the price list.--A. But when you get price lists there
are all sorts of explanations that have to be made about the prices. They
are sold under a different system in the United States from what they are in
Canada. I get this from evidence I heard before the Tariff Commission, tha
in the United States the dealer buys the machine, sets his own price upon it
and sells it to the farmer. In Canada the retailer is an agent for the manu-
facturer, and the manufacturer owns the machine until it is paid for.
Q. Is that so in all cases?---A. I don't know that it is so in all cases.
Mr. CnLDWELL: There is another thing, Mr. Chairman: that in the terms
o the Canadian retail agent, there is a clatse that he must sign in his agreement,
that he will not sell below the price specified by the Canadian manufacturc.
I know that because I have copies of their agreements.
Mr. SINCL.m: Does that apply to every company?
Mr. CnLDWL: I do not know that it does. I know it does to the Massey.
Harris.
The CAmM: I am now prepared to answer your question as to whether
boots and shoes go into t!m United States free of duty. On page 367 of the
[Mr. J'. W. Ward.]
AGRICULTURAL CONDITIONS 641
APPENDIX No. 3
States and what they cost in Canada?--A. :No, sir, what I submitted was a
statement showing how the cost of agricultural implements is increased by the
tariff.
Q. That is wholly a question between Canada and the United States.--
A. Well, we import implements from the United States and we pay a certain
rate of duty upon them, and naturally the cost is increased by that amount.
Q. If the tariff on agricultural implements were reduced, what difference
would i.t make to the farmer in Canada?--A. The rate of duty on dutiable
implements as I have worked it out was 16-78 per cent.
Q. You made the statement that it would reduce the cost if those duties
were removed. Are you able to give us the cost of certain implements, what
they cost now and what they would cost if the duty was removed, to the man
who buys in Canada.--A. Ye have endeavoured to secure from the Customs
Department how much the duty is on certain implements. We knoxv what the
rate is, but they won't tell us wat the duty is upon a binder for instance. That
is how much duty they collect upon a binder.
Q. They do not give you the valuation of the binder?--A. :No, they will
not give us the valuation for duty. That is providing information belonging
to the importers.
Q. Why should we not get that?
The CAmMAN: We can get it before this Committee.
By hIr. SICL.m: I wanted to bring out the point in dollars and cents what
the difference would be, and not in the rate only. It may not mean such a great
reduction in the cost of living. It might mean a reduction in the cost of imple-
ment, but that is only one item in the cost of living.--A. Mr. Findlay, of the
Massey Harris Company, giving evidence before the Dominion Government
Tariff Commission at Winnipeg, on the 14th of September, gave the duties upon
a list of implements, and he gave the duty upon a binder as $25; on a manure
spreader $27. Gang plow $11.10.
Q. What year was that?--A. This was in 1920.
Mr. HML: Mr. Ward, do you think the duty on agricultural imple-
ments alone is a very great factor in the cost of production, from the fact that
the farmer only buys perhaps one implement of a kind over 15 or 20 years.
A. tut the farmer is buying implements all the time and he is buying repair
parts for his implements all the time.
Q. He is not buying the same implement all the time or else there is some-
thing radically -rong with him?--A. :No, but one year he buys one thing and
another year he buys another. I gave two figures which show the "apparent
consumption" of agricultural implements in Canada, and assuming that the
home manufactured article is increased in price to the same extent as the
imported article pays duty, with a profit of 25 per cent upon that duty, the
result of that calculation is that in that year the increased cost of agricultural
implements to the farmers of this country was in round numbers ten million
dollars.
:Now you must remember, some people will divide that; they will take the
value of an outfit, and then they will divide it by ten or fifteen, and then tell
you how much it is a year. But our farmers in the West, at any rate a great
majority of them, buy heir implements on time, and they pay interest on a large
part of the cost, and it is not a matter that if a machine costs $100 that that
means ten dollars a year for ten years to pay for that implement; it means some-
think like ten dollars a year to pay interest on it.
Q. I am not disputing that it is one factor, Mr. Ward, but I do not believe
that it is as important a factor as some other things. For instance the duty
[Mr. J. W. Ward.]
3--41
642 ,SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V, A. 1923
on boots and shoes and clothing. We have to buy a supply every year.--
A. Well I have stressed the implements, but I went on to speak about the cost
of production generally being increased by the tariff, the duties upon the neces-
sities of life, boots, shoes, clothing, the duties upon woollen goods and every-
thing that we use. We ask that the duties generally be reduced so as to reduce
the cost of living, and therefore the cost of production, and therefore put us
m a better position to sell in the markets of the world at a profit. The tariff
does not increase the price of wheat sold at Liverpool but it does increase the
cost of growing it and to quite a material extent, and that puts the farmer at a
disadvantage which is entirely artificial and created by law.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. When you state that ten million dollars would be saved to the Canadian
farmer, how do you arrive at that figure? A. I took the duties collected by the
Customs Department, as shown by the Customs returns for the year ending
March 21, 1921, which was $1,900,000 duty collected on agricultura implements.
The exact figures were $1,917,369.67. When an importer brings in an article
which costs him $100, and pays a duty of $20 upon it, he must naturally obtain
a profit upon $120 instead of $100. If only one profit of 25 per cent is added,
that $20 becomes $25. This gives us Item No. 3, dealers' profit on duty of 25
per cent, which is $479,342.42.
Q. $479,000 added to the first item, you add the dealers' profit to the duty?
--A. Yes.
Mr. CALDWELL: Mr. Chairman, the witness has given all this, and it is on
record. I submit that we are wasting time.
The CHAmbrAY: DO not let us interrupt this question.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. I would like to finish this analysis. Will you g.o on please?--A. Then I
got the figures showing the production of agricultural implements in Canada,
from the report of the Mining, Metallurgical and Chemical Branch of the
Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
Q. You assume that the production would be absorbed in the sales of that
year?--A. I deducted from the Canadian production, the exports; and I elimin-
ated from the figures, the cream separators which are not dutiable. Then the
term is used in this report "Apparent consumption." If you take the cxports
and the home production and subtract the exports, the balance is the apparent
consumption for that year.
By the Chairman:
Q. Provided they did not carry over a lot of stock? A. But they would be
carrying over stock from the previous year possibly too. Anyway that is the
figure I took. Then I pplied the average rate of duty upon dutiable implements
which was 16-78 per cent to that, and I found that the apparent consumption
was $36,127,274. The average tariff rate of 16.78 per cent gives us $6,062,156.50,
the increase in price corresponding to the duty. Then 25 per cent of that again
as the dealers' profit on the duty, $1,515,539.49. And the four items total
$9,974,407.80. That is the way I arrived at it.
By Mr. Sinclair:
Q. As against that have you another account to show that if those machines
were supplied without duty, what the saving would be?--A. Just exactly that
amount, sir, approx]mately ten million dollars.
The CHtm: That is the witness' estimate.
fMr. J. W Ward.]
644 SPECIAL COMMITTEE
13-14 GEORGE V. A. 1923
By Mr. Hammell:
Q. Tractors are included?--A. Tractors are included. Tractors under $1,400
in value are free; they are not included.
By Hon. Mr. Tolmie:
Q. In the proposed reduction in the tariff, have you or your council any
suggestion to nake as to the way of making up that loss; what other form of
taxation would you suggest?--A. In the first place, you could not devise any
agreement.
By the Chab'man:
Q. You should answer the question directly, and then make your own
answer at another time. You could not possibly devise any means of raising
revenue more wasteful and costly than 
