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c * /■ f: r* 









November 17-18, 1972 







November 17-18, 1972 

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing 

Office, Washington, D.C. 20402— Price: $4.25 

Stock Number 0500-00097 


The Reverend Theodore M. Hesburgh, C.S.C., Chairman 

Stephen Horn, Vice Chairman 

Frankie M. Freeman 

Maurice B. Mitchell 

Robert S. Rankin 

Manuel Ruiz, Jr. 

John A. Buggs, Staff Director 
John H. Powell, Jr., General Counsel 



First: November 17, 1972, 8:20 a.m. 

Executive Session: November 17, 1972, 9:02 a.m. 

Reconvened Public Session: November 17, 1972, 10:05 a.m. 

Second: November 17, 1972, 1:30 p.m. 

Third: November 17, 1972, 7:30 p.m. 

Fourth: November 18, 1972, 9:00 a.m. 

Fifth: November 18, 1972, 2:18 p.m. 


Opening Statement 

Commissioner Frankie M. Freeman 1 

Statement of Rules 

Commissioner Manuel Ruiz 3 

Adjournment into Executive Session 6 

Opening Statement 

Commissioner Frankie M. Freeman 7 

Statement of Rules 

Commissioner Manual Ruiz 10 

Welcoming Remarks 

Honorable John Driggs 11 

Mr. Jose M. Burruel 12 

Mr. Vincent Little 13 

Overview Witnesses 

Mr. Donald R. Antone 14 

Ms. Veronica Lee Murdock and Mr. Antone Gonzales 18 

Panel of Phoenix Indian Residents with Complaints in the 
Area of Health 

Mr. Gus Greymountain, Ms. Julia Porter, Ms. Rose King 26 

Panel of Tucson Indian Residents with Complaints in the 
Area of Health 

Mrs. Ella Rumley, Mrs. Carol Parvello 34 

Federal Programs Director, Ganado Public School System 

Milford M. Sanderson 45 

San Carlos Apache Health Panel 

Mr. Marvin Mull, Mr. Roy Kitcheyan 57 

Vice Chairman, White Mountain Apache Tribe 

Mr. West Anderson 63 

Phoenix Indian Health Service Area Office 

Dr. Charles McCammon, Dr. James Erickson 71 

Director, Elementary Education, Navajo Nation 

Ms. Joy Hanley 91 

Arizona State Teaching Intern Panel 

Ms. Lucille Watahomigie, Ms. LaVonne Three Stars 101 

Mental Health Consultant, Indian Health Service 

Dr. Carl A. Hammerschlag 109 

White Mountain Apache Tribal Council Member 

Mr. Wesley Bonito 118 



Indian Higher Education Panel 

Mr. Rick St. Germaine, Mr. William DeHaas, Mr. Cipriano Manuel . 124 
Panel on Urban Administration of Justice Problems 

Reverend John Fife, Mr. Michael Wilson, Mr. Wallace Baker 133 

Panel on Indian Juvenile Offender and Prison Problems 

Mr. Philip Tsosie, Dr. David Giles, Mr. Albert French, Sr. 149 

Administration of Justice 

Honorable William Rhodes, Rod Lewis 155 


Mr. Ernest Gerlach, Staff Member, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights - - 167 

Papago Mining Panel 

Mr. Sonya Shepherd, Mr. Tony Escalante 172 

Mr. William Gremley, Ms. Gwendolyn Crockett 179 

Panel of Mining Company Representatives 

Mr. D. H. Orr, Mr. John Breen, Mr. Jim H. Hunter, 
Mr. Dick Glover 192 

Mr. Ronald Lupe 207 

Mr. Richard David 211 

Panel of Employers Bordering White Mountain and San Carlos 

Apache Reservations 

Mr. Glen Jones, Mr. Bruce Porter, Mr. Henry Allen, 

Mr. D. A. Reed 215 

Closing Statement 218 

Additional Statements Submitted In Lieu of Testimony: 
Frank Peres, Chief Road Engineer, Bureau of Indian Affairs, 

San Carlos Apache Reservation 220 

Floyd Mull, San Carlos Apache Tribal Council Member 221 

Commission Questionnaire to Arizona State Highway Department 223 

W. A. Ordway, Deputy Director, Arizona State Highway Commission 224 
Commission Questionnaire to Trinquilino U. Madrid, Equal 

Opportunity Representative, Arizona Highway Department 233 

Trinquilino U. Madrid, Equal Opportunity Representative, Arizona 

Highway Department 233 

Commission Questionnaire to Arthur Loring, Equal Opportunity 

Coordinator, Arizona Highway Department 237 

Arthur Loring, Equal Opportunity Coordinator, Arizona 

Highway Department 239 

Glen Whitman, Sacaton, Arizona 241 

Commission Questionnaire to John Arti choker, Area Director Bureau 

of Indian Affairs, Phoenix Area Office . 243 

John Artichoker, Area Director, Bureau of Indian Affairs, 

Phoenix Area Office 244 

Commission Questionnaire to Curtis Geiogamah, Assistant Area 

Director, Administrator, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Phoenix _ 257 

Curtis Geiogamah, Assistant Area Director, Administrator, Bureau 

of Indian Affairs, Phoenix 258 

Commission Questionnaire to James Dunn, Property and Supply 

Officer, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Phoenix 260 

James S. Dunn, Area Property and Supply Officer, Bureau of Indian 

Affairs, Phoenix 261 

Commission Questionnaire to Hon. Gary K. Nelson, Attorney General, 

State of Arizona 263 

Hon. Gary K. Nelson, Attorney General, State of Arizona _ 265 

Commission Questionnaire to J. Ford Smith, Executive Director, 

Arizona Civil Rights Commission . 269 

J. Ford Smith, Executive Director, Arizona Civil Rights Commission 270 



Commission Questionnaire to and Answers from Clinton Pattea, Exec- 
utive Secretary, Arizona Commission of Indian Affairs, Phoenix 272 

Commission Questionnaire to and Answers from Albert N. Brown, 

Executive Director, Arizona State Justice Planning Agency . 275 

Commission Questionnaire to and Answers from Hawley Atkinson, 

Special Assistant to the Governor, State of Arizona 279 


Exhibit No. 1 Notice of Hearing 290 

Exhibit No. 2 Entered into Record in Executive Session 291 

Exhibit No. 3 "Urban Indian Project," by Gus Greymountain, 

National Indian Training Research Center 292 

Exhibit No. 4 "Availability of Health Services to Phoenix Urban 

Indians," by Charles McCammon, M.D., Oct. 2, 1972 . 313 

Exhibit No. 5 Equal Employment Data, 1972, Indian Health 

Service, Phoenix Area 317 

Exhibit No. 6 Indian Health Service Housing Policy and Data, 

Phoenix Area 322 

Exhibit No. 7 Report of the Housing Committee of the Hospital 

Worker's Association, Fort Defiance, Ariz., 1972 _ . - 339 

Exhibit No. 8 "Indian Education: A Human Systems Analysis," 

by Carl Hammerschlag, M.D. 355 

Exhibit No. 9 Newspaper Articles on Activities of Indian Students 

at Arizona State University 386 

Exhibit No. 10 "Developing Curricular Content of the Indian Sur- 
vival in a Non-Indian World: Course for Native 
American Students at Arizona State University," 
by Richard St. Germaine, 1972 392 


Exhibit No. 11 Proposed Commission of Indian Affairs Act, State 
of Arizona; Arizona Commission of Indian Affairs 
Annual Report, 1971-72; Proposed Legislation on 
Arizona Civil Rights Division, 1972 419 

Exhibit No. 12 Letter from Gerald Wilkinson and Photographs of 

Housing Conditions in Ajo, Ariz. 465 

Exhibit No. 13 "Civil Rights and Indian Youth," by Robert 

Smeaton 468 

Exhibit No. 14 Statement of John M. Greif , M.D., Nov. 18, 1972 . .. 482 

Exhibit No. 15 Statement of Gary H. Spivey, M.D., Nov. 18, 1972 . 485 

Exhibit No. 16 Plaintiff-Appellant's Motion, Kale v. U.S. No. 20620 
(9th Cir. 1972)* 

Exhibit No. 17 Special Appeal by the Kiowa- Apache Tribal Business 
Committee, Fort Cobb, Okla., to the Honorable 
Richard Nixon, President of the United States, 
Mar. 7, 1972* 

*On file at the Commission. 




Phoenix Indian School 

Phoenix, Arizona 

Friday, November 17, 1972 

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights convened, pursuant to 
notice, at 8:30 a.m., Frankie M. Freeman, Commissioner, pre- 

PRESENT: Frankie M. Freeman, Commissioner; Manuel Ruiz, 
Commissioner; John A. Buggs, Staff Director; John H. Powell, 
Jr., General Counsel; Michael R. Smith, Assistant General 
Counsel; Joe C. Muskrat, Regional Director; Jerry Muskrat, 
Staff Attorney; 


Commissioner Freeman. The hearing will come to order. First 
we would like to call the court reporter, the sound engineers, and 
the clerks. Will you stand and be sworn, please? 

(Whereupon, Joe C. McLaughlin was sworn by Commissioner 
Freeman as court reporter; Don O'Neil and Richard Read were 
sworn as sound engineers; and Ms. Mary Baltimore and Mr. 
Concepcion E. Baiza were sworn as clerks.) 

Commissioner Freeman. Ladies and gentlemen, I am Frankie 
M. Freeman, a St. Louis attorney and a member of the United 
States Commission on Civil Rights. I wish to welcome you to 
this hearing conducted by the Commission and introduce to you 
Mr. Manuel Ruiz, Jr., another member of the Commission and a 
Los Angeles attorney, who is serving with me on this hearing 

I also wish to introduce the members of the Commission staff 
who will participate in this hearing. They are, Mr. John A. Buggs, 
Staff Director of the Commission; Mr. John H. Powell, Jr., 
General Counsel of the Commission; and Mr. Michael Smith, 
Assistant General Counsel. Joining us later will be Mr. Isaiah T. 
Creswell, Jr., Director of the Commission's Office of Community 
Programming and Director of its Indian Project. 

The civil rights of American Indians have long been a matter 
of concern to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. 
For many months our staff and members of our State Advisory 
Committees have been gathering information which is now cul- 
minating in a series of Commission hearings on Indian affairs 
of which this hearing in Phoenix is the second. 

Our first hearing on the subject was held earlier this week in 
Albuquerque, New Mexico, and we shall hold further hearings on 
the subject in other parts of the country which have significant 
Indian populations, including one early next year on issues of 
concern on the Navajo Reservation. 

This hearing is being held under the authority of the Civil 
Rights Act of 1957, as amended. As required by law, notice of 
this hearing was published in the Federal Register on Friday, 
October 13, 1972. A copy of this notice will be introduced into 
the record as Exhibit No. 1. 

(Whereupon, the document referred to was marked as Exhibit 
No. 1 and received in evidence.) 

The Commission is an independent, bipartisan agency of the 
United States Government established by Congress in 1957. 
Under the law, the Commission is required to submit to the 
President and the Congress reports which contain its findings and 
recommendations for corrective legislation or executive action. To 
enable the Commission to fulfill its duties, the Congress has em- 
powered the Commission to hold hearings and issue subpenas for 
the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents. 
In order to produce as credible a record as possible, the Com- 
mission is authorized to take testimony under oath. 

In just a few moments we will go into executive session in 
accordance with the statute governing Commission hearings 
which provides for such a session, closed to the public, during 
which persons who may be defamed, degraded, or incriminated 
by testimony given at the public sessions will have an opportunity 
to be heard. 

A period has also been set aside in the hearing to give time 
to persons who have not been subpenaed but who feel they have 
relevant testimony which the Commission should hear. 

The executive session is the only session closed to the public. 
At all other sessions the public is cordially invited to attend as 

In carrying out its legislative mandate, the Commission has 
made detailed studies in the fields of administration of justice, 
education, employment, health services, housing, and voting. To 
augment its studies in these fields it has held hearings in rep- 
resentative communities throughout the country. 

We have come to Phoenix as part of the Commission's project 
of investigating the civil rights status of reservation and non- 
reservation Indians. The Commission is deeply disturbed by the 
fact that of any identifiable ethnic group of American citizens, 
Indians have one of the highest unemployment rates, and the 
lowest per capita income; that their infant mortality rates are 
higher and their life expectancy lower than the rest of the 
United States population. 

Due in great part to the fact that they have been deprived of 
adequate schooling, they are generally relegated to the lowest 
rungs of the job ladder with almost no chance for upward 

The Commission has come to Phoenix, Arizona, a city and 
State which are home to many Indian tribes, to ascertain the 
nature and extent of these problems and, hopefully, to arrive 
at a means of rectifying them. 

I would like to emphasize that a Commission hearing is not 
an attempt to embarrass any one State, city, or individual, but is 
an exploration of circumstances that are representative of civil 
rights problems. The Commission's history shows that it has 
always been scrupulously honest and fair in its presentations 
even though the subject matter may be intrinsically emotional. 
The same objectivity will prevail at this hearing. 

Federal law protects all witnesses subpenaed to appear before 
the Commission. 

At this panel we will hear from representatives of the local, 
State, Federal and tribal governments, persons from the pri- 
vate sector, and individual citizens. We shall examine each ele- 
ment of the socioeconomic structure as it affects American In- 
dians, recognizing that this ethnic group represents diverse 
histories, cultures, and social institutions. We shall also give 
careful consideration to the question of Indian control of In- 
dian institutions and of programs serving Indian communities. 

This session will end after the reading of the rules by Com- 
missioner Ruiz. The Commission will then go into executive 
session in accordance with the statute governing Commission 

The public session will reconvene later this morning at 10:00 
a.m., with a recess for lunch between 12:00 and 1:30 p.m. 
Today's session will recess at 9:40 p.m. this evening. 

Tomorrow's session will begin at 9:00 a.m., with a lunch 
recess from 12:30 to 1:30. The time between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. 
has been set aside for unscheduled testimony. The hearing will 
conclude at 7: 30 o'clock tomorrow. 

Commissioner Ruiz. At the outset, I should emphasize that 
the observation I am about to make on the Commission's rules 
constitutes nothing more than brief summaries of the significant 
provisions. The rules themselves should be consulted for a fuller 
understanding. Staff members are present and available to an- 
swer questions which may arise during the course of the hearing. 

In outlining the procedures which will govern the hearing, I 
think it is important to explain in some detail the differences 
between the public session and the executive session. 

Section 102 (e) of our statute provides, and I quote: 

"If the Commission determines that evidence or testimony at 

any hearing may tend to defame, degrade or incriminate any 
person, it shall receive such evidence or testimony in executive 

(At this point the lights went out in the auditorium.) 

Commissioner Freeman. May we have your attention? 

Commissioner Ruiz. I will continue to read as loudly as I can. 
We seem to have a little bit of difficulty with the power outside. 
I would suggest under the emergency that everybody sitting in 
the back kindly come to the first two or three rows so that we 
won't have to speak so loudly. Will you kindly come to the 

(Continuing reading of section 102(e) of the Commission's 
statute : ) 

"The Commission shall afford any person defamed, degraded 
or incriminated by such evidence or testimony an opportunity to 
appear and be heard in executive session," — 

I will announce the room where that will be when I finish. 

— "with a reasonable number of additional witnesses re- 
quested by him, before deciding to use such evidence or testi- 

The executive session to follow this morning is being held to 
comply with this statutory mandate. Several weeks ago, the 
Commission met in Washington and received the material which 
had been collected in preparation for this hearing. It was then 
determined that certain individuals were entitled to a hearing in 
executive session. Accordingly, these individuals were notified of 
their right to appear at this session. Each also was sent a copy 
of the Commission's rules, which explained this right, and was 
invited to communicate with the Commission in the event he 
wished to appear or had any questions concerning the executive 

Although some of these persons have been subpenaed by the 
Commission to appear during the public session of this hearing, 
none of them was subpenaed to appear at this executive session. 
Several weeks ago they received notice of this executive session, 
and explanation of its purpose, and an invitation to appear if 
they so desired. They are not required by law to appear. The 
decision to appear or not to appear lies entirely with them. The 
executive session is for their benefit alone, and if they decide 
to forego this opportunity, that is their privilege. 

In providing for an executive session, Congress clearly in- 
tended to give the fullest protection to individuals by affording 
them an opportunity to show why any testimony which may be 
damaging to them should not be presented in public. Congress 
wished to minimize damage to reputations as much as possible. 
Congress wished to provide persons an opportunity to rebut un- 
founded charges before they are publicized. Obviously, this 


protection would be meaningless if the persons were confronted 
with, and required to respond in public to, the anticipated allega- 

Following the presentation of the testimony in executive ses- 
sion, and any statement in opposition to it, the Commissioners 
review the significance of the testimony and the merit of the 
opposition to it. In the event they find the testimony to be of 
insufficient credibility, or the opposition to it to be of sufficient 
merit, they may refuse to hear certain witnesses even though 
they have been subpenaed to testify in public session. An execu- 
tive session of this type is the only portion of the entire hearing 
which is not, as Commissioner Freeman said, open to the public. 

The public hearing which begins later this morning is some- 
what different. The public and the press are invited and urged 
to attend. Copies of the rules which govern this hearing may be 
secured during any recess from the members of the executive 
staff. Persons who have been subpenaed and persons who have 
been afforded an opportunity to appear in executive session have 
already been given their copies. 

All persons scheduled to appear in public session who live or 
work in Arizona have been subpenaed by the Commission. 

All testimony at the executive and public sessions will be 
given under oath and will be transcribed verbatim by the official 
reporter. All witnesses at public and executive sessions are en- 
titled to be accompanied and advised by counsel. Counsel may 
subject his client to reasonable examination. He also may make 
objections on the record and argue briefly the basis for such 

Persons subpenaed to the public session and persons who 
have been afforded an opportunity to appear in executive session 
may require that witnesses be subpenaed on their behalf. All 
requests for subpenas must be in writing and must be supported 
by a showing of the general relevance and materiality of the 
evidence sought. 

In addition, persons who have been afforded an opportunity to 
appear in executive session may be accompanied by a reasonable 
number of witnesses who need not be subpenaed. They may also 
submit statements prepared by themselves or others for inclusion 
in the record, provided these are submitted within the time 
required by the rules. All witnesses at public sessions have a 
similar right to introduce statements into the record. At public 
sessions there is a limited right of cross-examination which is 
spelled out in detail in the rules. 

Finally, I should point out that in many cases the Com- 
mission has gone significantly beyond congressional requirements 
in its rules to provide safeguards for witnesses and other persons. 
We have done this with the intent of insuring that Commission 


hearings be conducted in the fairest and most impartial manner. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, Commissioner Ruiz. 

We are now about to adjourn this first session, the first 
public session, which will be reconvened here in this auditorium 
at 10 o'clock this morning. 

The executive session will be held in the Music Auditorium of 
the Music School. 

United States Marshal Bob Jones will be available to escort any 
persons who are responding to our invitation to appear at execu- 
tive session. So for those of you who wish to appear, will you 
immediately identify yourselves to Marshal Jones, and he will 
escort you. 

Mr. Powell. The people who are responding need not identify 
themselves publicly. Just make yourselves known to Mr. Jones 
and come on over to the executive session. 

Commissioner Freeman. At this point, this session is ad- 
journed, and the public session will be reconvened here at 10:00 
a.m. The executive session will begin immediately. 

(Whereupon, at 9:02 a.m., the public session was recessed 
for the purpose of conducting an executive session.) 


FRIDAY, 10:05 a.m. 

Commissioner Freeman. This public hearing of the United 
States Commission on Civil Rights will come to order. Miss 
Joyce Long will be sworn. 

(Whereupon, Joyce Long was sworn by Commissioner Free- 
man as clerk.) 

Commissioner Freeman. Ladies and gentlemen, I am 
Frankie M. Freeman, a St. Louis attorney and a member of the 
United States Commission on Civil Rights. I wish to welcome you 
to this hearing conducted by the Commission and introduce to 
you Mr. Manuel Ruiz, Jr., another member of the Commission 
and a Los Angeles attorney, who is serving with me on this 
hearing panel. 

I also wish to introduce to you the members of the Com- 
mission staff who will participate in this hearing. They are Mr. 
John A. Buggs, Staff Director of the Commission; Mr. John H. 
Powell, Jr., General Counsel of the Commission; Mr. Michael 
Smith, Assistant General Counsel; and Mr. Jerry Muskrat, also 
a member of the staff. Mr. Isaiah T. Creswell, Director of the 
Commission's Office of Community Programming and Director 
of its Indian Project, will be joining us later. 

The civil rights of American Indians have long been a matter 
of concern to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. For 
many months our staff and members of our State Advisory 
Committees have been gathering information which is now cul- 
minating in a series of Commission hearings on Indian affairs of 
which this hearing in Phoenix is the second. 

Our first hearing on the subject was held earlier this week in 
Albuquerque, New Mexico, and we shall hold further hearings on 
the subject in other parts of the country which have significant 
Indian populations, including one early next year on issues of 
concern on the Navajo Reservation. 

This hearing is being held under the authority of the Civil 
Rights Act of 1957, as amended. As required by law, notice of 
this hearing was published in the Federal Register on Friday, 
October 13, 1972. A copy of this notice has been introduced into 
the record as Exhibit No. 1. 

The Commission is an independent, bipartisan agency of the 
United States Government established by Congress in 1957. Its 
duties are as follows: 

1. To investigate sworn allegations that citizens are being 


deprived of their right to vote by reason of their race, color, 
religion, or national origin; 

2. To study and collect information regarding legal develop- 
ments which constitute a denial of equal protection of the laws 
under the Constitution because of race, color, religion, sex, or 
national origin; 

3. To appraise Federal laws and policies with respect to the 
equal protection of the laws because of race, color, religion, sex, 
or national origin; 

4. To serve as a national clearinghouse for information with 
respect to denials of equal protection of the laws because of 
race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. 

Under the law, the Commission is required to submit to the 
President and the Congress reports which contain its findings 
and recommendations for corrective legislative or executive ac- 
tion. To enable the Commission to fulfill its duties, the Congress 
has empowered the Commission to hold hearings and issue sub- 
penas for the attendance of witnesses and the production of 
documents. In order to produce as credible a record as possible, 
the Commission is authorized to take testimony under oath. 

This morning the Commission held an executive session in 
accordance with the statute governing Commission hearings 
which provides for such a session, closed to the public, during 
which persons who may be defamed, degraded, or incriminated 
by testimony given at the public sessions had an opportunity to 
be heard. 

A period has also been set aside during the course of the 
hearing to give time to persons who have not been subpenaed 
but who feel they have relevant testimony which the Commission 
should hear. 

The executive session was the only session closed to the public. 
At this and all other sessions the public is cordially invited to 
attend as observers. 

I can best explain the functions and limitations of this Com- 
mission by quoting from a decision of the United States Supreme 
Court early in the Commission's history: 

"This Commission does not adjudicate; it does not hold trials 
or determine anyone's civil or criminal liability; it does not 
issue orders. It does not make determinations depriving anyone 
of life, liberty or property. In short, the Commission does not 
and cannot take any affirmative action which will affect an in- 
dividual's legal rights. The only purpose of its existence is to 
find facts which may be subsequently used as the basis for 
legal or executive action." 

In carrying out its legislative mandate, the Commission has 
made detailed studies in the fields of administration of justice, 
education, employment, health services, housing, and voting. To 

augment its studies in these fields, it has held hearings in 
representative communities across the country. 

We have come to Phoenix as part of the Commission's project 
of investigating the civil rights status of reservation and non- 
reservation Indians. The Commission is deeply disturbed by the 
fact that of any identifiable ethnic group of American citizens, 
the Indians have one of the highest unemployment rates, and 
the lowest per capita income; that their infant mortality rates 
are higher and their life expectancy lower than the rest of the 
United States population. Due in great part to the fact that 
they have been deprived of adequate schooling, they are generally 
relegated to the lowest rungs of the job ladder with almost no 
chance for upward mobility. 

The Commission has come to Phoenix, Arizona, a city and 
State which are home to many Indian tribes, to ascertain the 
nature and extent of these problems and, hopefully, to arrive at 
a means of rectifying them. 

I would like to emphasize that a Commission hearing is not 
an attempt to embarrass any one State, city, or individual, but 
is an exploration of circumstances that are representative of 
civil rights problems. The Commission's history shows that it 
has always been scrupulously honest and fair in its presenta- 
tions even though the subject matter may be intrinsically emo- 
tional. The same objectivity will prevail at this hearing. 

Federal law protects all witnesses subpenaed to appear before 
the Commission. 

At this point, I should like to explain that Commission pro- 
cedures require the presence of Federal marshals at its hearings 
to insure an atmosphere of dignity and decorum in which the 
proceedings can be held. 

At this hearing we will hear from representatives of the 
local, State, and Federal Governments, tribal governments, mem- 
bers of the private sector, and individual citizens. We shall 
examine each phase of the socioeconomic structure as it affects 
American Indians, recognizing that this ethnic group represents 
diverse histories, cultures, and social institutions. We shall also 
give careful consideration to the question of Indian control of 
Indian institutions and of programs serving Indian communities. 
This public session will break for lunch between 12:00 and 
1:30 p.m. Today's session will recess at or about 9:40 p.m. this 

Tomorrow's session will begin at 9:00 a.m., with a lunch recess 
from 12:30 to 1:30 p.m. The time between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. 
tomorrow has been set aside for unscheduled testimony. The 
hearing will conclude at 7: 30 o'clock Saturday evening. 

And now I shall ask Commissioner Ruiz to read the rules of 
the hearing. 


Commissioner Ruiz. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Thank you. 

Ladies and gentlemen, as the chairman said, the hearing has 
been divided into two parts. First, there was the executive ses- 
sion which was held earlier this morning. At the executive or 
closed session, individuals were invited to appear, if they so de- 
sired, and to state in private their objections to the public 
presentation of any testimony which they believed might be 
damaging to them. We are now beginning the public session 
which will continue through Saturday evening. 

The public session or hearing which begins now is somewhat 
different. The public and the press are now, of course, invited 
and urged to attend these open sessions. 

At the outset, I should emphasize that the observations I am 
about to make on the Commission's rules constitute nothing 
more than brief summaries of the significant provisions. The 
rules themselves should be consulted for a fuller understanding. 
Staff members will be available to answer questions which 
arise during the course of the hearing, if you have any such 

All persons who are scheduled to appear who live or work in 
Arizona have been subpenaed by the Commission. 

All testimony at the public sessions will be under oath and 
will be transcribed verbatim by the official reporter. Everyone 
who testifies or submits data or evidence is entitled to obtain a 
copy of the transcript on payment of costs. In addition, within 
60 days after the close of the hearing, a person may ask to 
correct errors in the transcript of the hearing with relation to 
his testimony. Such requests will be granted only to make the 
transcript conform to testimony as presented at the hearing. 

All witnesses that you will hear are entitled to be accompanied 
and advised by counsel. Counsel may subject his client to reason- 
able examination. He also may make objections on the record 
and argue briefly the basis for any such objections. 

If the Commission determines that any witness' testimony 
tends to defame, degrade, or incriminate any person, that per- 
son or his counsel may submit written questions which in the 
discretion of the Commission may be put to the witness. 

Persons subpenaed to the public session may require that wit- 
nesses be subpenaed on their behalf. All requests for subpenas 
must be in writing and must be supported by a showing of the 
general relevance and materiality of the evidence sought. 

In addition, all witnesses have the right to submit statements 
prepared by themselves or others for inclusion in the record, 
provided they are submitted within the time required by the 
rules. Any person who has not been subpenaed may be permitted 
in the discretion of the Commission to submit a written statement 


at this public hearing. Such statement will be reviewed by the 
members of the Commission and made a part of the record. 

Witnesses at Commission hearings are protected by the pro- 
visions of Title 18, U.S. Code, section 1505, which make it a 
crime to threaten, intimidate, or injure witnesses on account of 
their attendance at these Government proceedings. 

Copies of the rules which govern this hearing may be secured 
during any recess from any member of the Commission's staff. 
Persons who have been subpenaed have already been given their 

Finally, I should point out that these rules were drafted with 
the intent of insuring that Commission hearings be conducted 
in a fair and impartial manner, and that is our intention. In 
many cases the Commission has gone significantly beyond con- 
gressional requirements in providing safeguards for witnesses 
and other persons. We have done this in the belief that useful 
facts can be developed best in an atmosphere of calm and ob- 

We hope that such an atmosphere will prevail throughout this 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, Commissioner Ruiz. 

We have invited the Mayor of Phoenix, the Honorable John 
Driggs, to appear before this hearing, and if he is here we would 
like to ask him to come forward. Will you remain standing? 

(Whereupon, Hon. John Driggs, Mayor of Phoenix, was sworn 
by Commissioner Freeman.) 


Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. Do you have a 
statement you wish to give ? 

Mayor Driggs. Yes. Commissioners, Honored Guests, Ladies 
and Gentlemen: It is my privilege as Mayor of the city of 
Phoenix to welcome this hearing in our city. We feel that it is 
most important that the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights has 
elected to hold such a hearing in our city. 

Phoenix is the capital of a State that has the largest Indian 
population of any State in the Union, and we have noted that 
Indians are moving into the urban areas of our State in increas- 
ing numbers. We have every hope and belief that these hearings 
will be very productive and that they will invoke greater partic- 
ipation from the citizens of this State and, indeed, the whole 

We hope that these hearings will lead to increased justice, 
expanded understanding and improved living standards for the 
American Indian, who really is the original American. 

We express the hope that the hearings will provide oppor- 


tunities for Indians to be included in all areas of the society. 
We feel that Indians do want to participate. We have had 
their expressions in our city council meetings, their desire to 
have increased involvement in local government, and we are at- 
tempting to involve them in our boards and commissions so that 
they may feel the spirit of citizen participation in local govern- 

We feel that there is such a rich cultural heritage here and 
such a great desire on the part of the Indians from every 
evidence I have had, from every expression I have observed, 
that there is a tremendous desire, and I feel that these hearings 
will take a great step forward in expanding significantly the 
horizons of opportunity for the Indians in our society. 

Thank you very much. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, sir. You may be excused. 

One of the very valuable resources of the Civil Rights Com- 
mission is the State Advisory Committee in each State. We would 
like to invite now the Chairman of the Arizona Advisory Com- 
mittee, Mr. Jose M. Burruel, to be the next witness. 

Mr. Burruel, will you remain standing, please? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Jose M. Burruel was sworn by Commissioner 




Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. 

Mr. Burruel. As chairman of the Arizona State Committee to 
the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, it is a pleasure to wel- 
come Commissioners Freeman and Ruiz to the State of Arizona. 

It is with both sadness and joy that I extend this welcome 
to you: with sadness because of the conditions affecting our 
Indian brothers and sisters which makes this hearing necessary; 
with joy because of the hope which this hearing gives that those 
problems shall not be tolerated in this State and in this Nation. 

This hearing shall examine several issues of immediate con- 
cern to Indians residing in Arizona — education, employment, 
health care services, and the administration of justice. Indian 
citizens do not enjoy their full and equal measure of these 

Infant mortality rates among Indians are higher than for any 
other racial or ethnic group. Indian life expectancy is 6 years 
below the national average of 70 years. The inadequate or poor 
quality of health care services available to Indian communities 
contributes to these and other health problems. 

Indian children can often expect to attend schools which do 
not prepare them for the technological world we live in. In- 


dian schools have low achievement and high dropout rates. Bi- 
lingual education programs are frequently unavailable to Indian 
children who may enter school with little knowledge of the 
English language. Indian parents often do not control the Bureau 
of Indian Affairs' schools which their children attend. 

The employment picture for Indians is dismal. For all too 
many people employment simply does not exist. Others are rele- 
gated to low-paying, low-opportunity positions. Few employers 
throughout the State, including State and Federal Governments, 
have strong, effective, affirmative action programs. Consequently, 
very few Indians are found in professional and decision- 
making positions. Similarly, normal promotion patterns do not 
exist for many Indians. 

Many Indians in the State of Arizona do not believe that In- 
dians receive equal and fair treatment in the administration of 
justice. Indians, it is felt, are charged excessively high bail, 
receive inadequate legal assistance, and receive harsher sentences 
than other community residents. Concern is also expressed that 
trial juries are selected from lists which do not reflect Indian 
population figures. Moreover, jurisdictional disputes between In- 
dian, State, and Federal justice systems generally work to the 
disadvantage of Indians. The end result of such denials is that 
Indians do not feel that they get a fair shake in the administra- 
tion of justice. 

A double standard of justice cannot be tolerated in a society 
having democratic principles. Your decision to examine these 
problems now is very important. Solutions to these problems are 
greatly needed. We expect that this hearing will lead us to those 

The rights of native Americans have been abused far too long. 
While we cannot replace what has been destroyed or lost we can 
move now to protect the rights of Indians. 

It is to this task which the Arizona State Committee welcomes 

Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, Mr. Burruel. 

We would now like to call Mr. Vincent Little, the Superin- 
tendent of the Phoenix Indian School. He will welcome us. I 
would like to say, Mr. Little, on behalf of the Commission, 
that we are deeply grateful for the use of these facilities. Will 
you stand and be sworn? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Vincent Little was sworn by Commissioner 


Mr. Little. Members of the Commission; Honorable John 
Driggs, Mayor of Phoenix; Tribal Leaders, parents and guests: 


On behalf of the students, the staff, and the All Indian Inter- 
tribal School Board, it gives me a great pleasure to welcome 
you and the United States Commission on Civil Rights to the 
campus of the Phoenix Indian High School. 

The Phoenix Indian High School is one of the off-reservation 
boarding schools operated by the Bureau of Indian Affairs which 
serves students from the Southwestern part of the United 

The school has been in existence since 1891 and presently 
has an enrollment of approximately 600 students in grades 7 
through 12 who represent 19 separate tribal groups, primarily 
from Arizona, California, Utah, and Nevada. 

The school is an accredited high school under the North 
Central Association and offers a comprehensive program to our 

I might add that for the past 3 years the Phoenix Indian 
High School has operated under the guidance and direction of 
the Phoenix Intertribal School Board which represents the major 
tribes being served. 

We hope that our session will be successful and productive 
and will be of great benefit to the Indian people of our country. 

Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, Mr. Little. 

The next group of witnesses are designated as overview wit- 

We would like to call Mr. Donald R. Antone, Sr., President 
of the Intertribal Council of Arizona. 

Will you remain standing, sir? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Donald R. Antone, Sr., was sworn by Com- 
missioner Freeman.) 


Mr. Antone. Members of the Commission, Honorable Mayor 
Driggs, Fellow Tribal Leaders, Ladies and Gentlemen: As I under- 
stand the purpose of this meeting, it is "to collect information 
concerning legal developments constituting a denial of equal 
protection of the laws under the Constitution because of race, 
color, religion, or national origin. . ." Specifically, these meet- 
ings address themselves to the problem of American Indians in 
the States of New Mexico and Arizona. 

Speaking for myself and, I am sure, all of those represented 
on the Intertribal Council of Arizona, these efforts in our be- 
half are very much appreciated. In saying this, let emphasize 
an important point: 

The Intertribal Council is an organization of elected officials 
of 16 organized, reservation-dwelling Indian tribes. The people 


we represent have many problems, some of our own genera- 
tion and some thrust upon us by the community around us. 
Today we are pleased to talk with you a little about these prob- 
lems and their possible solutions. 

Additionally, we recognize that there are many city-dwelling 
Indians in Arizona whom we do not represent. Many of their 
problems are similar to ours and many are not the same. We 
are sympathetic to their needs. We hope that we can be helpful 
to them in solving their problems. But we do not pretend to 
represent them. We don't understand their problems as well as 
they do, and they have very able spokesman who can speak in 
their behalf. 

I think it is very important that this distinction be made 
clearly in your minds — that is, the distinction between the ur- 
ban and the reservation-dwelling Indians of this area. 

I believe that one of the very important factors contributing 
to the problems of last week in the Bureau of Indian Affairs 
office in Washington is a lack of realization on many people's 
part that there is a real difference between the needs and desires 
of these two groups of American Indians, though there is a real 
question in my mind as to whether or not those people in Wash- 
ington really represented anyone but themselves. 

When any of us choose to leave the reservation and enter 
the mainstream of American life, we must realize that we are 
trading some of the advantages of the living on the reservation 
with our tribal people for the advantages of life off the reserva- 
tion. This is a choice we have which many of you don't enjoy. 

Now, having made this separation, let me address myself to 
the relations between Arizona's reservation Indians and the non- 
Indian communities of the State. 

Going back a few years, about 6 to be exact, because of the 
U.S. Supreme Court's famous "one man, one vote" ruling, the 
nature of the Arizona Legislature changed. From that time on, 
the legislature has had an urban, Republican majority. The new 
legislature began looking at things differently than previous law- 
making bodies had done. And, one of the things, they took a new 
look at the status of Arizona's reservation Indians and their 

In 1968, for example, we had the first attempt to place a State 
tax on Indian lands through the use of a leasehold, or possessory 
interest, tax. Fortunately, several attempts since that time have 
also been unsuccessful. 

Last year there were 10 or a dozen bills in the Arizona Legis- 
lature, most of which would have adversely affected reservation 
Indians in the State. In each case, on a panic basis, we have 
mustered our forces against these bills, and, fortunately, only 
one that was harmful passed in this session. 


As Indian leaders, we began to realize that there was and is a 
great lack of understanding between the Indian and the non- 
Indian communities of the State. As a result, on many occasions, 
we find ourselves working at odds with the legislators of Ari- 
zona and with some of the administrative heads of State agen- 
cies and on rare occasions with news media people, though I 
must say that, in my experience, problems with the media 
have been extremely rare. 

Let me tell one story which may point up the nature of our 
general problems in Arizona. Nearly a year ago, the Papago Tribe 
was attempting to come to a settlement with American Smelting 
and Refining Company concerning the mining of copper ore on 
the Papago Reservation. The tribe and ASARCO, the mining 
company, had come to an agreement between themselves in the 
situation, and all that needed doing was to have the Federal 
court ratify the arrangements. 

The Papago did have some trouble, however. A group of so- 
called "do-gooders" in the community, led principally by some 
university people, felt that the agreement between the Papago 
tribal leaders, the U.S. Government, and the private consultants 
to the tribe had worked out was not in the best interests of 
the Papago people. These "do-gooders" therefore mounted a pro- 
gram to try to keep the courts from approving the agreement. 

In some cases this attitude in the community, held by some 
private citizens, that they know better what is good for the 
Indians than the Indians themselves do, is very harmful. This is 
an attitude that many Federal agency people had years ago but 
which we have been able to overcome to a large extent in 
recent years. 

I hope that people in the community who wish to help us will 
consult with us first and then do these things which we decide 
are in our best interests. We may be wrong in some matters, 
but, "Mother, we would rather do it ourselves." 

Now back to my story. One of these university "do-gooders" 
was giving a presentation here in Phoenix on this Papago- 
ASARCO settlement situation. At the end of his presentation 
he called for questions and comments. One of the members of 
the audience responded: "I have seen the poor living conditions 
on that part of the Papago Reservation. Don't these people need 
the income from these mines to improve their standard of living?" 

In reply to this another member of the audience is reported 
to have said, "Yes, but it takes so little to please them !" 

Frankly, this type of paternalism, which is the attitude of 
some few members of our community, is appreciated for its 
good intentions but not for its results on our Indian way of life. 
We are educated, adult, and in some cases mature members 
of society, and we feel capable of making the decisions that are 


meaningful to us. We hope that we can sell this concept to the 
community at large. 

Now, for the past few minutes I have addressed myself to 
some of the major problems of Indians in the Arizona commun- 
ity. There are others, of course, of a specific nature — education, 
welfare, taxation, industrial development, employment, roads, 
transportation, law and order, agriculture, health, housing, legis- 
lation, alcohol and drugs, to name a few. What can be done 
about these things? What should be done? And, most importantly, 
what are we doing about them? 

We have based all of our actions on the premise that the 
best solution to man's problems with man is through mutual 
understanding. Therefore, as elected leaders of the Indian com- 
munity in Arizona, we have initiated contacts with those State 
and community leaders with whom we wish to improve our 
understanding. We have gone to the Legislature, the Governor, 
the heads of Arizona State agencies, and to the news media 
with our part of the story. 

September 21st of this year, we held the first regular meeting 
with these people. More than 150 of us met to discuss problems 
of mutual interest. At this time, we established four committees, 
each made up with representatives from the reservations and 
from the State Legislature, the State Administration, the Federal 
agencies, and the tribal leaders themselves. 

These committees have addressed themselves to what we con- 
sider the four areas of most critical need — education, welfare, 
industrial and tourism development and taxation and services to 
Indians by the State of Arizona. Since that time, these commit- 
tees or subcommittees of these groups have met to further dis- 
cuss the problems and to gather information on the subjects 

Frankly, we feel that we have been able to open up new ave- 
nues of communications with these people and that progress so 
far would indicate that there is real reason to hope that progress 
can be made on this level. We certainly hope so. We are dealing 
with these people in good faith and believe that they are re- 
sponding in like manner. 

Six months or a year from now we will be able to give you a 
better idea of how this program is working out. We hope that 
this type of activity will work and that we can avoid lawsuits 
and Federal intervention. 

In an associated but somewhat different area, we have ini- 
tiated an Indian public relations program. This program is de- 
signed to let the communities of Arizona know what we are 
thinking and what we are doing. While our funds for financing 
these programs have been extremely limited, the results to date 
have been very promising. 


Frankly, this is our largest need — that is, the need for funds 
to finance the programs that we have going for us. If someone 
wants to help us, assisting us with the financing of the pro- 
grams we are now starting, it will be greatly appreciated. 

This is the extent of my statement, and I thank you for the 
opportunity of being able to speak with you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much, Mr. Antone. 

I would like to call the next witness who is Miss Veronica Lee 
Murdock, the Vice Chairperson, Colorado River Tribal Council 
and Secretary-Treasurer, Intertribal Council of Arizona. 

She will be accompanied by Mr. Antone Gonzales, who is 
Chairman of the Colorado River Tribe. 

Will you stand, please? 

(Whereupon, Ms. Veronica Lee Murdock and Mr. Antone Gon- 
zales were sworn by Commissioner Freeman.) 





Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Ms. Murdock. We would like to thank you very much for 
being invited here today to speak with you and to the people 
and guests you invited to attend the civil rights hearings also. 
My name is Veronica Murdock, and I am a Mojave member of 
the Colorado River Indian Tribes located in Parker, Arizona. 
Mr. Gonzales is the Chairman of the Colorado River Indian 
Tribes, and we appreciate very much your interest and hope 
that your interest will be a continuing one in Indian problems. 

I think the tribes are presently making strides, even though 
many pitfalls are put before them, and it is hoped that you will 
be able to help cover some of these pitholes and clear the 
path so that the Indians can become self-sufficient on their 
various reservations. 

I know that you have stressed the areas that you would like 
input on as health, employment, administering of justice, and 
education issues. At this time we really don't know who you 
have as witnesses — I don't think it was probably necessary to 
tell us — but we feel that there are important areas that you 
need to be made aware of, and we hope that you do have the 
people here that will cover them. 

But we would like to give you a general overview of what 
we feel in these areas are problems not only relative to our tribe 
but that we feel the other tribes share. 

In one of the areas, employment, we're having major problems 
now on our home reservation. We feel that the BIA has been 


negligent in implementing its own inhouse merit promotion 

We have people who have worked on our reservations for 
years and years. One gentleman that I have in mind has 
worked for 17 years within a certain department. He has 
never received any training of any kind. When promotions did 
come up, it was taken upon his supervisors — because they felt 
he was a troublemaker and otherwise because he stood up for 
safety programs and other things within that department — to 
see that he did not get these promotions. He was either not 
advised of the job openings or the supervisor took it upon himself 
to write in qualifications which he could not meet. 

I think if you are not aware of some of the reservation prob- 
lems we have, many of the employees that are hired on our 
reservation and other reservations are of a temporary nature. 
This allows supervisors and other people in charge of them to 
set up their own little dynasties and kingdoms where if these 
people feel they are not treated fairly, if they are held back — And 
I think in some cases there's been physical violence and threats. 
And yet these people will not come up and say anything because 
they are temporary employees and the livelihood of their fam- 
ilies, of themselves, depends very much on these jobs. 

Therefore, you do not get people coming out and saying what 
is happening to them. 

As far as I know, several people on the reservation have 
worked for 8 years as a temporary employee. But some of them 
just work from year to year, and they are not put back on 
because of conflicts with the supervisor, and so this is one — 

Commissioner Freeman. Are these BIA employees you're talk- 
ing about? 

Ms. Murdock. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Bureau of Indian Affairs? 

Ms. Murdock. Yes. And I think with these promotional op- 
portunity bulletins that are put out, the process is sometimes a 
farce. Because local supervisors are allowed to interject certain 
job qualifications which automatically exclude people that they 
don't want to work or they don't want in a supervisory capacity. 

We have had people, our own people, who have trained the 
ones that the Bureau brings in. They train them. They do their 
job. And they say, "You know, maybe we're stupid, but, you 
know, we try to help them out when they bring in a stranger 
from the outside. We have to end up teaching him the job." 

So I think that at the local agencies they have the equal 
employment opportunity counselors set up there, but really they 
don't know what their job is. I think that they were established 
over a year ago, and just this past month I think they received 


their guidelines and what they were supposed to be accomplish- 

So to me it's kind of — They set these things up but they 
are just token programs, and they don't really accomplish what 
they should when they themselves don't even know what their 
jobs are. 

So I think certain investigations should be set up possibly not 
within the Bureau but someone from the outside coming in and 
taking a look at these jobs periodically to evaluate the job, and 
not only the job but the individual in that job, because I know 
that there are people who don't receive the pay who are doing 
certain jobs of their supervisors. 

And if we can get rid of some of these supervisors who are 
holding back some of our Indian people, I think we'd be a lot 
better off. 

I have two examples, and I don't know whether I should men- 
tion names or not, but there are two — 

Commissioner Freeman. Do not mention the names. 

Ms. Murdock. Okay. There are two outstanding examples of 
what I mean. There was one gentleman who has been employed 
by the Bureau for 29 years. He's presently a GS-8. He has never 
had training except for a very, very minor 2-week training. And 
he has put in for promotions, and he has been constantly striving 
to get ahead, but for 29 years he is a GS-8. That's what some 
people go in as today. 

There's another example of a gentleman who worked for 20 
years. He is a GS-9. He has worked 15 years as administrative 
manager. These are local Indians. I'm talking about Arizona In- 
dians in the Arizona Bureau system. And he has passed his 
GS-11 Civil Service exam and he's requested numerous transfers 
which have never been accepted. 

So, you know, I really think that the training potential of these 
employees should be investigated to make sure that the people 
that do, and want to, move ahead. They're usually stymied, and 
it's not for individual reasons. It's because of the system. 

In education we feel that the Johnson-O'Malley funds are being 
used not for Indian students but for just the general budget pro- 
gram needs, and we feel that there is need for better monitoring 
of JOM monies. 

I think that in our local area, which I have to talk about, there 
are no Indians on the school board, and I think this year was the 
first time that an Indian ran for the school board and, unfortu- 
nately, lost. But the school board has closed meetings in northern 
Yuma County, which we do not feel is right. And they act like 
the information is top secret. They feel that it shouldn't get out. 

I know that there have been some people — and these are not 
necessarily Indians — who have taken an interest but they are 


shut out of the meetings. And they gave up telling when the 
meetings were being held because they didn't want people to 
attend them. 

And I think communication between the school boards and the 
people of the community is very important. And this just is not 
getting out to the people at all. I think you'd have more people 
interested in running for school boards and more Indians if this 
information would get out. 

I think that all the statistics point out that the educational 
system of the Indians is very poor and needs some investigation. 
And I think we need a better screening of teachers who will be 
working directly with Indians in Indian schools, and in other 
schools where Indians are in attendance. And I think that some 
professional help needs to be given to some of the Indian students, 

My chairman is going to cover administering of justice and 
some of the problems that our tribe has — and we know other 
tribes have — with Public Law 280 and other cases. 

Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Gonzales. Thank you, Veronica. As you know, part of 
our reservation is in California, across from Arizona, and that 
we are administered under Public Law 280. We are having prob- 
lems on the California side because of this Public Law 280, and 
this is in law enforcement. Our Indian police have no jurisdiction 
on the California side, and this makes it a problem where we 
have influx of people from the southern part of California com- 
ing in on holiday weekends, and that we do not have the power 
to have these people arrested when they are doing wrong. 

But yet I feel that we should do something about it because of 
the fact that my people are getting harassed and so forth by 
the non-enforcement of the California police. It's Riverside 
County and San Bernardino County. Problems arise from mari- 
juana smoking, dope addicts coming in there, and so forth. We 
feel that there should be something done about the Public Law 
280 where we can get enforcement of Public Law 280, particularly 
on our reservation. 

In another instance, we have trailer courts and so forth, that 
get harassed by not conforming to the California building 
codes, and so forth; non-Indians living side by side having the 
same kind of business, they don't bother them, but they are 
really bothering us and really harassing us into conforming with 
this code. 

And we feel this is kind of an injustice, too, if the non-Indian 
is not getting the same treatment. 

I would like to change the subject and go back to the employ- 
ment Mrs. Murdock was talking about. I would like to point out 
a few of the things that she maybe forgot. 


You know, when there's job openings or there's a chance for an 
advancement, the job descriptions are rewritten and our people 
don't have a chance to get on these good jobs. The job description 
is rewritten just so that they can get somebody they actually 
want in there even though they are not qualified to do so. 

And we are having this problem right now with our power 
system. We have two gentlemen in there who are not cooperating 
with the Indian employees. We have asked the superintendent to 
do something about this 3 or 4 months ago, although it's been 
going on for 4 or 5 years, but nobody does anything about it. They 
change superintendents, the new superintendent we have now 
has been reluctant to do anything about it, and yet we are losing 
money by the low morale of Indian people working on this power 
program that we have with the Bureau. And we feel that there is 
discrimination towards Indian employees with the Bureau. 

Thank you. 

Ms. Murdock. You know, I think that one of the major excuses 
that the Indians receive when they do put in complaints about 
employees that they feel are not working towards the best in- 
terests of the tribe is that they're on civil service status and it's 
very hard to get rid of them. But I just can't see where anyone 
that is not wanted by the tribes — Some of those people, you 
know, I even hate to see them transferred to other Indian reserva- 
tions, because I really wouldn't wish the kind of people that we 
are trying to get rid of keeping Bureau employees — I wouldn't 
wish them on my worst enemy. 

So I really feel that perhaps this possibly needs to be looked 
into because I think the biggest excuse is: "We can't ship them 
out, you know." It seems to me they have more power than the 
people who are supposedly in power. 

And I guess if they wait for another job opening on another 
reservation or somewhere, well, I feel sorry for the other reserva- 
tion. But we are attempting to get rid of some of the employees 
that are just, we feel, very detrimental to the interests of the 

I think in the health field we have major problems on our 
reservation. We received what we thought was a lack of funding. 
And another one of the favorite excuses, I think, of people is they 
can blame it on the higher echelon. And to me this is them not 
performing their duties on the local levels or at the area levels 
for the Indian people on the reservations. 

And I think that if you could come out and inspect or investi- 
gate some of the conditions of the hospitals on the reservations, 
you would see exactly what we mean. 

Like the structure in which our hospital is. I don't know really 
what to call it. It was built in 1940 and it is still standing. And 
there has been one major addition. 


But I think one of the major problems, too, that all reservations 
have is that doctors change every 2 years and that many times 
we have come across excellent doctors and I think many, many 
times that they probably would perform a better job, but they 
are constantly having to do all this paper work and fill out all 
these forms. And the Indians are constantly being surveyed. So 
they are stymied, in a way, in doing their job. 

And then, of course, with the lack of funding there is poor 
service. There is very little followup and just general lack of 
reaction to many of the complaints in their employment depart- 

Oftentimes, the advertisements of the jobs are not sufficient 
to allow the Indian people to apply for the jobs. 

In the area of welfare we have a number of problems. The fact 
that in our area served by the county they come out once a 
month — I think once a month — and on a certain day — and they 
don't have any permanent office setup. They come in and they 
utilize the tribal building. But we have all the people coming in 
on this one certain day. And there's very little followup — people 
not contacting them enough. I think these are people that gen- 
uinely need help, and in a way they are neglected. 

Another area which is giving our people a lot of problems is 
that lease income is prorated. Therefore, it cuts down on their 
welfare payments, and this really does create a hardship for some 
of the families, because, if you can understand the whole thing, 
many of them are paying for their homes and other major ex- 
penditures out of those lease monies, and yet that money is pro- 
rated ; so an individual is given $17 from the welfare department, 
which doesn't even begin to cover what his needs are. 

I think that we are having the same problems with the food 
stamp program. Yuma County promised to bring out people who 
knew how to fill out these enormous forms. I don't know whether 
you have ever seen them, but they are quite lengthy. And some 
of the information is very personal. I think that it's hard for 
anybody to relate this kind of information to a stranger or 
someone that you don't even know. There is a reluctance on the 
part of our people to say, "We don't want to fill out those 
tremendous forms," you know. And really, I can't see why the 
filling out of all the forms — I don't see why you have to know 
some of the background information, how many times they have 
been married, you know — Why does that kind of information 
have to be given in order for you to get food stamps and to get 
some food in your stomach? 

So I think that some of these things need to be looked into, too. 

As far as the State program, they cannot — The county program 
cannot provide the services that it should to the Indian reserva- 


tions when they have no office setup or anything like this on the 

I think Don Antone covered some of the problems that we are 
having with taxation. 

I think our capacity for living on our respective reservations 
is being threatened by the State and other forces with their 
wanting to come in and tax the reservations. Yet it seems like we 
are constantly having to prove that we are citizens of this State 
and of this nation, and I don't see why we should have to, because 
those things go along with living and were provided for in the 
Arizona Constitution and rules. I guess we have millions and 
millions of rules and regulations that apply to the Indians, and 
this sometimes stymies the Indian movement, because when we 
are constantly being surveyed, constantly being checked on regu- 
lations, this type of thing, it's sometimes— If someone really 
wanted to give us a hard time it would be impossible to move. 

It just seems like when you're an Indian there is a second set 
of laws or a second set of standards set up for you. And I really 
feel that it's important that you come out and take a look at not 
only these but other areas. 

And I'll repeat that we appreciate very much your interest, 
and we hope that it will be a continuing one. 

Mr. Gonzales. I would like to make a few comments on the 
Public Indian Health Service. We find it's inadequately funded. 
And just about 2 or 3 weeks ago we got notice from the adminis- 
trative officer down at the Parker Indian Hospital that it may 
close its doors before the year was out and that they were run- 
ning out of operating funds. Part of my Council came up here 
and had a meeting with the Public Health Service, and they said 
that they were going to go ahead and operate on getting some 
more funds, but our Indian people go to the hospitals there and 
some of them are pretty sick, and they sit there for hours wait- 
ing for the doctor to show up to see what is wrong with them. 
And when they do diagnose what it is, they give them a little 
bag of aspirins and send them home, you know, and this is it. In 
some cases the Indian people are real sick and need attention. Yet 
they turn them and tell them to go back and they will be all 
right, that it's a mild cold or something like that. I feel this is 
not right, you know. 

I have seen — I have visited the hospital a couple times and 
found a couple of my people sick and I felt that they should have 
had better services than that. I brought this to the attention of 
the doctor on duty, and he says, "I can't do anything about it. 
We will just have to see what happens." 

I said, "If you can't do anything, why don't you fly her or 
him to Phoenix and maybe they can help her in Phoenix? And, 
well, in this one case, she got flown in and died 2 days later. 


I felt that if somebody was qualified to make the decision to get 
some doctoring done that — I don't think we would have this. 

We have young doctors coming in there for 2 years. I call 
them "90-day wonders," you know. I was in the Navy, and I 
used to call "90-day wonders" officers that came in in 90 days and 
out again. But, anyway, I call them 90-day wonders. And we're 
not getting the service that we should be getting from the 
Public Health Service. 

We have had our hospital condemned by a survey team from 
Washington. We put in for a new hospital and for some new 
doctors, and they had a survey team come over and say that the 
hospital is inadequate and doesn't have the facilities or operating 
facilities and so forth. So we had these comments. That was 
taken back to Washington, and nothing's been done about it, and 
we are still waiting. But we have been crying for a resident 
doctor that my people would have confidence in, and there would 
be more service provided to them through the Public Health 

And that's about it. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. You may be 

I would like at this time to introduce two young women who 
are serving as consultants during this hearing. The other persons 
who are members of the staff and who are serving in various 
capacities have been identified and introduced. However, we 
failed to introduce the others, and I would like to do this now. 

We have serving as consultants to this hearing Miss Abby 
Abinanti, who is a member of the Yurok tribe of Northern 
California, a third-year student at the University of New Mexico, 
and Miss Vicky Santana, a member of the Blackfeet tribe of 
Browning, Montana, who is also a third-year student at the 
University of New Mexico. Law students, I'm sorry. I want to 
make it very clear they are law students at the University of 
New Mexico. 

You may just stand so they will know who you are. 

And now we will be going into more intensive study of various 
areas. The next subject area is health. I would like to first be 
sure that the next series of witnesses are present, so if you are 
present will you stand as I call your names just where you are 
so we will know you are here? 

Mr. Gus Greymountain. Miss Julia Porter. Miss Rose King. 

Are all three of you here? Then will you come forward, please? 
Will you remain standing until you are sworn ? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Gus Greymountain, Miss Julia Porter, and 
Miss Rose King were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and 
testified as follows: ) 







Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Powell, you may proceed. 

Mr. Powell. Will you each please state your name, tribal 
affiliation, address, and occupation for the record beginning with 
the lady on my left, Miss King? 

Ms. King. First of all I'd like to say welcome to the Com- 
mission. I'm Hopi-Cherokee, was born on the reservation here 
in Arizona, and I am the director of the Phoenix Indian Center. 

Ms. Porter. Thank you for coming here. I am Julia Porter. 
I'm an Oklahoma Indian, have lived here in Phoenix many years. 
At the present time I'm not employed. 

Mr. Greymountain. My name is Gus Greymountain. I'm a 
Navajo from here in Arizona. I have been living — I guess you 
could call me an urban Indian, even though I hate that 
distinction — I have been living here in Phoenix for a number of 
years. I am presently employed by the National Indian Training 
Research Center in Tempe, Arizona. 

Mr. Powell. In what capacity are you employed? 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, I'm working for a program that is 
supposed to develop community education leadership specialists. 
Whether or not it's doing that I'm not sure. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Greymountain, would you please describe 
your duties as a community education leadership specialist? What 
do you do? 

Mr. Greymountain. I work in Indian communities across — 
you know, in different States. And we go into these communities, 
and our function is that we at first help the community to 
identify their leaders, and then we help these people to develop 
the expertise or the ability to operate their own educational 
programs. Last year I was working here in Phoenix for the Ad 
Hoc Committee of the Community Council, the Phoenix Urban 
Indian Project, at which time we did a report for that Ad Hoc 
Committee. It's this report that I'm going to speak on now. 

Mr. Powell. On the basis of that study, would you please de- 
scribe the status and condition of the Phoenix Indian community? 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, the status? What do you mean? 

Mr. Powell. The problems, the— 

Mr. Greymountain. Oh, there are many problems I guess, but 
I guess the two outstanding ones, the ones I am going to speak 
on now, or address myself to, are those of alcoholism, the high 
arrest rate — the number of Indians arrested, and the failure 
or inability of the city to cope with this problem — and the other 
is that of employment. 


In this report I point out that yearly, or annually, there are 
approximately 7,000-plus Indians arrested for alcohol-related of- 
fenses. Now, this is approximately 25 percent of all arrests — 
liquor — I mean alcohol-related offenses. Twenty-five percent of all 
of those arrests in this city are of Indian people, and we don't 
make up that much of the city's population. 

Mr. Powell. Would you tell us what is the population? What 
are the statistics? 

Mr. Greymountain. No one knows for sure. It could be any- 
where from 7,000 to 12,000, but I think more or less an accurate 
figure would be 11,000 right now. 

Mr. Powell. What is the name of the report you are dis- 

Mr. Greymountain. It's just the Phoenix Urban Indian 

Mr. Powell. We have been given a copy of that report, have 
we not? 

Mr. Greymountain. Yes, you have. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I ask that report be made 
part of the record. 

Commissioner Freeman. It will be received. 

(Whereupon, the document referred to was marked as Ex- 
hibit No. 3 and received in evidence.) 

Mr. Powell. Continue. 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, in this report I also — Well, I'll stay 
on the alcoholism thing for now. Twenty-five percent of all the 
alcohol-related offenses, of all the people arrested for those alcohol- 
related offenses, 25 percent of them, are Indian. We don't make 
up 25 percent of this city's population. Now, 50 percent of all 
women arrested for alcohol-related offenses are Indian. And 25 
percent of all the men arrested for alcohol-related offenses are 
Indian men. 

Now, I have been to the city, I have talked with the city gov- 
ernment on this, and they come up with the same — They have 
the same out, their way out. 

Mr. Powell. Why do you suppose those figures are so different 
for Indians as opposed to other citizens of Phoenix? 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, there's a number of reasons. I guess 
one of them is that the Indian person when — He's not familiar 
with the court system. There isn't anyone there within the city 
jail to work with him. And also the other is the city saves a lot 
of money on the compound. 

The compound is a correctional facility out here on the out- 
side of town by the freeway. They save a lot of money running 
that facility because they have a lot of institutionalized Indians 
that are frequently arrested. They sentence these guys for 60 
days at a time, and they send them out there and they are cooks 


and guys that run the farm out there or they are barbers. A lot 
of the "trusties" that work at the city are Indian men. In fact, 
most of them are. 

Mr. Powell. Is it your view that city police arrest Indians under 
circumstances in which they would not arrest Anglo citizens? 

Mr. Greymountain. Yes, I'd say that, and I know it for a fact. 
It would be kind of hard for me to prove it, but I know it. And it's 
just a subtle form of racism. That's the way they express it. 
They don't have any signs up saying "No Indians Allowed," but 
they get back at Indians in other ways. 

The other thing is I talked to them. I said, "Why don't you 
establish an office within the city government, an Indian desk, 
have a direct liaison, a contact with the urban Indian commun- 
ity?" _ 

And they said, "Well, we can't do that because of one thing, 
because if we did that we'd have to do the same for the Chicanos. 
We'd have to do the same thing for the blacks. We can't organize 
a special desk for you, a special office for you, because that would 
set the blacks off." 

Well, I want to ask the city what do they think the OIC is? 
And what do they think the LEAP organization is? They're 
both dominated by the blacks and the Chicanos. I'd like to ask 
Mayor Driggs or whoever his representatives are what they 
could do for us in that area, you know. 

The other thing is I also looked into the employment. The 
report, I'm sure that you have it now. The State employment 
office doesn't have anyone to work directly with Indians. At least 
they didn't at the time I did the report, and I'm pretty sure 
they still don't have anyone. 

The Phoenix Indian Center has a job bank tape that they play, 
and I don't know how effective that has been. They do manage to 
place some people in jobs though. 

City government in Phoenix in 1970-71 employed 51 American 
Indians out of a total of 5,413 employees, and this is approxi- 
mately 9 percent. The majority of these workers were operatives, 
semi-skilled. There were no Indians in administrative or pro- 
fessional positions. Of the 51 Indians employed by the city, 32 of 
those worked in water and sewers. Now, this to me, you know, 
hints very strongly at institutional racism. 

To cite a few departments where there are no Indians em- 
ployed: the city court, the fire department, human relations, 
city manager's personnel, planning, public housing. The police 
department, I think, has a couple of Indians on now. The last 
time I talked with them they said they had a couple, and maybe 
one going through school. 

Because of the high number of Indians going through courts 
and then to jail, I feel that they should have some people working 


at the jail, because there are a lot of Indians that get beat up 
there. I mean they're not here. They probably won't come for- 
ward and testify, but I have talked to some of these people, and 
they say that they get beat up, they get roughed around in the 
drunk tank, say, and then when they go to court there's nobody 
to advocate for them there. They don't understand the process, so 
when they get up, they're asked, "Guilty or not guilty?" and 
they say, "Guilty," and then they are sentenced to jail. They 
don't know that sometimes they can be eligible for bail on their 
own recognizance. 

Mr. Powell. Miss King, would you describe for us the pur- 
poses of the Phoenix Indian Center? 

Ms. King. Yes. The Phoenix Indian Center is funded through 
OEO. We also receive funds from the United Way and private 
donations. And we are the instrument in the city of Phoenix 
that helps the Indian make the transition from the reservation 
way of life to the urban way of life. We have to assist the 
Indian in orientating to the community at large. When he is 
on the reservation he goes to the BIA school or mission schools. 
When he comes to the city we have certain school districts 
and areas that are set about by demographic forces. He also 
has to learn where to go to shop. For the first time, sometimes, 
he has to learn to pay the utility bill, where to go, where to 
make the deposit. 

In this transition we try to find housing for the Indian. We 
try to find adequate employment. We try to counsel him. We do 
have a job bank monitor that is owned by the Arizona State 
Employment Service. We also do youth counseling. We have a 
program for senior citizens. We are the social agency, you might 
say, for the Indians who are coming into the urban area. 

Mr. Powell. Indians coming from reservations often have 
what might be described as cultural problems adjusting to the 
urban life? Is that correct? 

Ms. King. Yes, sir. And all this comes under the word "transi- 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Greymountain, I take it that one of the major 
points in the area of health was that when these Indians are 
arrested for drunkenness there's no facilities at the jails nor is 
there any program designed to take care of that on that occasion ? 
Is that correct? 

Mr. Greymountain. Yes, that's correct. I see this as the 
responsibility of the city. It should be up to them to develop a 
comprehensive alcoholism program or some kind of facility, de- 
toxification facility, and they haven't done that. And this, to me, 
is — They're ignoring us, and they have constantly done this to 

Mr. Powell. Miss King mentioned cultural problems that res- 


ervation Indians have when they come into the urban areas leav- 
ing the reservations. Would you care to comment on that, Mr. 
Greymountain ? 

Mr. Greymountain. Cultural problems? 

Mr. Powell. Yes, Problems in terms of the different culture 
they are entering. 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, you know, a lot of it has to do 
with, like, on reservations things are more relaxed. Like we 
don't have to punch a clock, this sort of thing. Now, Indians have 
a hard time getting used to that, that they have to be somewhere 
at a certain time. And this is the way that the predominant 
society operates now. Time, you know, is money, and Indian 
people have a difficult time relating to that or understanding that 
concept because it's not them. The other thing is that in this 
predominant society everybody is out for materialistic things, and, 
as Indian people, I guess we just haven't been living that way. 

Mr. Powell. Miss King, Mr. Greymountain mentioned ad- 
ministration of justice problems. Do you have any comment in 
that area? 

Ms. King. Yes, I do. We, too, find at the Phoenix Indian 
Center that Indians, because of their cultural differences, do run 
into problems. One is that when he's picked up and arrested, he is 
not always drunk. Maybe he stumbles and falls. He does not have 
social clubs or private bars in which to drink. So if he's found 
on the street staggering, many times he's picked up. 

He does not always understand that he has rights as a citizen. 
Many times he does not even understand English. We do have 
people that go to the courts from the Phoenix Indian Center to 
try to assist and interpret. We have found in working with the 
person that is picked up that he does not understand what they 
are trying to tell him. They will ask him, "Do you know that you 
were picked up for public intoxication?" They don't know what 
that means. If someone would say, "We picked you up because 
you're drunk," or, "You're a vagrant because there's no money in 
your pockets," then he would understand. 

Mr. Powell. I see. 

Miss King, we understand that you are a retired nurse with 
the IHS and that you are on one of the Indian advisory boards 
and are familiar with some of the kinds of problems that Indians 
have at the Indian Health Service. Would you give us a brief 
account of that? That's going to be my last question. 

Ms. King. Correction. I don't want to interrupt, but this is 
Julia Porter. 

Mr. Powell. Miss Porter. I beg your pardon. 

Ms. Porter. Would you rephrase your question? 

Mr. Powell. I understand that you are a retired nurse and 
that you either are now or have been on an Indian health advisory 


board and are familiar with some of the problems that 
Indians have. Would you care to give us a brief account of that? 

Ms. Porter. Yes, sir. Now, you're talking about two kinds of 
Indians over there. You're talking about patients and you're 
talking about Indian employees. Is that correct? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Ms. Porter. Let's start with the patients. 

Mr. Powell. Are you on the Indian health advisory board? 

Ms. Porter. Yes, sir, I am. I forgot to state that. 

Mr. Powell. Which one is that? 

Ms. Porter. The Phoenix Service Unit. 

Mr. Powell. Okay. Go ahead. 

Ms. Porter. The Indian patients come to the board at various 
times — come to us with complaints. In the hospital load, the out- 
patient is — oh, excuse me. Let me start from the beginning. We 
have a new hospital, and when we moved into the new hospital 
we just moved into a bigger area. And the personnel on every 
department — It seems to me they never have enough people 
working there, so when the patients come to the outpatient clinic, 
some of them come by appointment, some of them just drop in, 
and then they don't understand why they have to wait so long. 
These are some of the complaints that they bring to us. Some of 
them don't have telephones at home to call if they cannot come. 
And then, later on, they show up. Some of them have trans- 
portation problems — many of them have transportation problems. 

Now are we going to employees of the Indian hospital? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Ms. Porter. Now, many of the employees have problems. 

Mr. Powell. Are they treated the same as other Anglo 
employees ? 

Ms. Porter. In certain ways, no, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Would you care to tell us ? 

Ms. Porter. Some of them are being discriminated against. 
Someone mentioned here in some other group that they are not 
recognized for some of their special talents. They are held back. I 
know this. Most of the supervisors are all Anglos. You never see 
an Indian head nurse or a supervisor. You see a lot of janitors. 
You see a lot of the low grade employees over there. And then 
they have problems with their supervisors. If they don't show up 
they are given AWOL. 

Mr. Powell. Does this happen with Anglo employees? 

Ms. Porter. No, sir. If it does, I have not heard about it. The 
Indian usually is the one. I'll give you an example. An Indian 
low class employee called in the same time an Anglo nurse with 
a higher rating called in sick. They did not give the Indian 
employee sick leave but the Anglo nurse got the sick leave. I 
firmly believe that that wasn't right. 


When it comes to us as board members, it seems to me that 
now our role is we are not to handle personnel problems. 

Mr. Powell. But as a member of the advisory board you are 
to review policies and give recommendations? Is that right? 

Ms. Porter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. These Indian patients, do they complain about 
long waiting procedures, and insensitivity of staff and that kind 
of thing? 

Ms. Porter. Yes, sir, they do. 

Mr. Powell. Do they also complain about the quality of the 
medicine practiced in the Indian Health Center ? 

Ms. Porter. Sir? 

Mr. Powell. They also complain about the quality of the 
medicine practiced in the Indian Health Center? 

Ms. Porter. In some instances, yes. 

Mr. Powell. What would you recommend to change these 
things ? What would you — 

Ms. Porter. Change the whole public health system. 

Mr. Powell. How could that be done? 

Ms. Porter. By training our Indian people, give them training 
so that we can have good bedside care, so we'll have good admin- 
istration. We're asking for an Indian administrator now. We have 
had an Anglo — 

Mr. Powell. You think Indian control, some control by Indians, 
would help? 

Ms. Porter. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 

Ms. King. Could I— 

Mr. Powell. Miss King, yes. What else would you like to see 
done with some of these problems? 

Ms. King. With regard to the public health hospital through 
the center, some of the things that Indian people themselves have 
brought to us: That the Indian Health Service was given the 
task of setting up this health advisory board 4 or 5 years ago, and 
this board would be able to set up policies and have Indian input. 
Only until recently — I think this summer or early spring — were 
any bylaws even presented or used. 

So this seems to be one of the problems. The Indian people 
on the board were not always aware how far they could go in 
setting policy or how far they could go in helping assist an em- 
ployee. Many of the complaints that we have had at the center 
is that they are afraid to complain because of a relative or 
themselves because they would lose their job. 

Mr. Powell. I see. 

Mr. Greymountain, what do you think should be done to achieve 
Indian control over the health service and other institutions 
which affect the lives of Indians? 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, I think that the Federal Govern- 


ment and in particular the Indian Health Service and Bureau 
of Indian Affairs should live up to the Indian preference thing. 

Mr. Powell. Is there a — 

Mr. Greymountain. Start enforcing that. 

Mr. Powell. Is there a need — 

Mr. Greymountain. We have qualified people now who can take 
over some of these positions, but the civil service protects those 
we can't get out until they either retire or die. 

Mr. Powell. I see. Do you think the Indian community is 
sufficiently united to achieve some of these objectives or is 
there a need for further — 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, I feel if the city of Phoenix — you 
know, they recently got some money, this revenue sharing thing — 
if they could turn loose some of the money now we could find some 
funds to hire a community organizer or community organizers 
and work within the Indian community and we could solve some 
of our problems if we could get together. And if we had somebody 
from within the city that would guarantee us some money we 
could develop our own programs, and we'd do it ourselves. This 
is what we keep asking them repeatedly and they won't come 

Mr. Powell. I have no further questions, Madam Chairman. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. What effort have you made to get some 
of that revenue sharing on an organized basis ? 

Mr. Greymountain. Well, myself and several other people, 
one of them who will be testifying tomorrow, have approached the 
city and he'll be talking on this tomorrow afternoon. We have 
talked to them, with people within the city manager's office, and 
they have answered us — They told us they don't know how the 
money is going to be split up yet. They just know that they 
have it. This was several weeks ago. I haven't checked into 
it since then. But we'd like to develop this office, within the 
city government somewhere. Let's develop an office, an Indian 

Commissioner Ruiz. Have you made a written proposal of 
any kind so it will be a matter of record? Or simply just talked 
to them ? 

Mr. Greymountain. We have just talked to people right now. 
We're trying to find out the best way to approach this. We talked 
to people within the city government. And we see the Phoenix 
Indian Center as being the most logical, the most practical 
vehicle through which this should be carried out, because the 
Phoenix Indian Center is there for us. So we want to work with 
them and the city. 

Commissioner Ruiz. No further questions. 


Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs, do you have any ques- 

Mr. Buggs. No questions, Madam Chairman. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Muskrat? 

Mr. Jerry Muskrat. No questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. You may be 

We will have a 5-minute recess. 

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 

Commissioner Freeman. This hearing is called to order. Will 
everyone be seated ? 

Will everyone be seated, please? The hearing is in session. Will 
you either find seats or continue your conversations in the cor- 
ridor, please, outside of this room? 

Our next witnesses are Ms. Ella Rumley, Board Chairman, 
American Indian Association, and Ms. Carol Parvello. 

Will you come forward, please? Will you remain standing and 
be sworn, please? 

(Whereupon, Ms. Ella Rumley and Ms. Carol Parvello were 
sworn by Commissioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 




Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Would each of you please state your name, tribal 
affiliation, address, and occupation for the record, beginning with 
the lady on my left ? 

Ms. Rumley. I am Ella Rumley. I am a member of the Papago 
tribe. I live at 3034 Rocky Vista in Tucson. My capacity here is 
chairman of the Board of Directors of the Tucson Indian Center. 

Ms. Parvello. My name is Carol Parvello. I live at 542 West 
27th Street, Tucson. Papago. And I'm the counselor of the Tucson 
Indian Center. 

Mr. Powell. We understand you are both residents of South 
Tucson and have been active in Indian affairs for many years. 
Is that correct? 

Ms. Parvello. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Is that right, Ms. Rumley? 

Ms. Rumley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Rumley, would you tell us something about 
the urban Indian population of South Tucson? 

Ms. Rumley. Well, I sort of question the term "urban Indian." 
In Tucson there were Indians living in the Tucson area long 
before the city was founded. The descendants of these people 
are still there. And they still live as village Indians. It's not their 


fault that reservation boundaries were established to exclude 
them. Their problems are different from the so-called urban 
Indians, the people who have migrated to cities for jobs, etc. 

Mr. Powell. So with respect to South Tucson you don't 
think there should be a distinction drawn in terms of services 
or anything else between Indians on the reservation and Indians 
in South Tucson? Is that correct? 

Ms. Rumley. That's right. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Parvello, would you tell us something about 
the Indian Center? 

Ms. Parvello. The Indian Center is sort of a community 
place for Indians that have come from the reservation or have 
always lived in Tucson. We felt that there was a great need for 
some kind of service agency for the Indians in South Tucson. 
Before, they never did have any kind of place that they could go 
to take part in social activities or getting some kind of assistance 
in just living in the city, in Tucson. 

Mr. Powell. Why do they need service? What kind of service 
do they need? What kind of problems do they have that require 
service ? 

Ms. Parvello. Assistance and services, I would say, in trying 
to gain employment, assistance in legal services, trying to re- 
ceive better health care, and educational assistance, receive finan- 
cial aid to attend the public schools or to even go on, to high 
school as far as that goes. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Rumley, regarding employment opportuni- 
ties, are there adequate employment opportunities for Indians 
in South Tucson area? 

Ms. Rumley. Well, in both South Tucson and the city of 
Tucson, the job opportunities are mainly for menial labor. You 
don't see Indians in the businesses in Tucson even as secretaries 
or clerk-typists, even sales persons. One of the largest govern- 
ment employers is Davis Mountain Airfield, and there's only two 
Indians, two identified Indians, in the whole place. 

We have tried at various times to do some kind of studies on the 
attitude of people or businesses in the city to see why there 
are no Indians visible in banks and places like that. We have 
never succeeded. We have never had a real good answer. One of 
the answers that is usually given is that no one applied, no 
Indian applied. And yet we know of several cases where Indians 
have applied and were ignored. 

For instance, in the Model Cities program, there was a need 
for a youth worker. Four trained para-professional behavioral con- 
sultant Indians applied for that job, and none of them were 
even interviewed. 

Mr. Powell. You mentioned a Model Cities program. Is there 
a model city hospital setup and are Indians treated? Do they 


have an opportunity to be treated by that hospital? And if not, 
why not? 

Ms. Rumley. There is a clinic. If not, why not? It's because 
there are boundaries and, you know, the people who live in 
the area have access to — 

Mr. Powell. And Indians are not in that area? 

Ms. Rumley. Most of the Indians are not in that area. 

Mr. Powell. When that facility was set up, was there not 
adequate Indian input to see to it Indians would be treated? Is 
that it? 

Ms. Rumley. There was none that I know of. 

Mr. Powell. Regarding employment opportunities, how do 
opportunities for Indians compare with the other groups in 
South Tucson area? I take it that there are Spanish surname 
citizens and Anglo citizens. Do they have better opportunity for 
employment than the Indian citizens ? 

Ms. Rumley. Well, I can only use the example that many 
years back when the Mexican-American was also excluded from 
white collar jobs — Now they're in these positions and they're 
very visible. 

Mr. Powell. Are Indians employed at all in the city govern- 
ment? Are there any Indians there? 

Ms. Rumley. I think Carol has some statistics on that. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Parvello? 

Ms. Parvello. Out of the total city employment — There's 
2,487, but out of that number there are only 26 Indians working 
for the city. 

Mr. Powell. 2,780 city employees but only how many Indians? 

Ms. Parvello. Twenty-six. 

Mr. Powell. Twenty-six? 

Ms. Parvello. And as for the county figure, there's 2,453, and 
out of that there's only 17 Indians. 

Mr. Powell. Are there any Indian policemen in South Tucson. 
Ms. Parvello? 

Ms. Parvello. No. 

Mr. Powell. Any firemen ? 

Ms. Parvello. No. I don't know how I would explain the 
situation in Tucson. There's a city of Tucson and then there's 
one part that is called South Tucson. They have their own city 
government, their own police department, their own fire depart- 
ment. Out of this we have no Indians whatsoever working, even 
being on the town council or working as policemen, training to 
become policemen and working on the force there, or being gar- 
bage collectors. There's no Indians employed. 

Mr. Powell. Roughly, what is the Indian population of Tucson 
and South Tucson? 


Ms. Parvello. I think the population for Tucson is something 
like 2,000-some-hundred. 

Mr. Powell. What is the total population of Tucson? 

Ms. Parvello. I really don't know. 

MR. Powell. In the order of what— 200,000 ? 

Ms. Rumley. I don't know. It's more than that. 

Mr. Powell. We can get those statistics. 

Ms. Rumley. Well, not only do you have the Indians who have 
lived there a long time, but a lot of them in the city who come 
temporarily from the reservations, stay for a certain length of 
time, and then go back. 

Mr. Powell. So it fluctuates? 

Ms. Rumley. Yes, so that the 25,000 that we usually quote 
is not the total number of Indians. 

Mr. Powell. Let's clarify the record. You're talking about the 
total number of Indians. You mean 2,500? I think you mentioned 
25,000 Indians. 

Ms. Rumley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. 2,500 you mean? Is that correct? 

Ms. Rumley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Parvello, aside from employment, do you 
feel that Indians play a meaningful role in social services and other 
related city programs in Tucson ? 

Ms. Parvello. No., I really don't think so. Like Ms. Rumley 
stated about the Model Cities program. As far as poverty pro- 
grams go, there's really been no input from the Indian com- 
munity in Tucson. And this more or less makes them feel, you 
know, that this program really isn't for them. It's not really 
doing anything for them. And that's a problem that we are 
having now with the Indian Center. Right now we're funded 
under the OEO, and even there we really don't have any 
participation in planning and carrying out the program. 

In the Model Cities program, there's another thing. There is 
no citizen participation there, and a lot of Indians don't under- 
stand the structure of Model Cities even at the lowest level; 
participating in units; being on the board; and then presenting, 
you know, the needs, to the Mayor and Council to get some pro- 
grams started to help. A lot of people don't understand this, 
and they don't feel that they can be a part of it. And, still, at the 
same time statistics are used to receive this kind of funding. 

Mr. Powell. They are counted to get service ? 

Ms. Parvello. Right. 

Mr. Powell. — for the city, but the services — once they are 
received — the city does not see to it that Indians receive those 

Ms. Parvello. That's right. 

Mr. Powell. It's unfortunate. 


Ms. Rumley, with respect to getting jobs, what are some of 
the problems, like transportation, lack of education, insensitivity 
of employers, that Indians have? Would you care to comment on 

Ms. Rumley. Yes. There are some major problems in trans- 
portation. Most Indians don't have the means for getting their 
own transportation, so it's very hard. There are some require- 
ments that one has, for instance, getting to and from a job or 
going to and from a place who might hire them. Just in searching 
for a job, it's very hard. 

The bus system, which I hear has improved some — but it's 
very — There are certain areas where there just isn't any bus 
service, and so that's one of the drawbacks. You can be qualified 
for a motor vehicle operator or something like that, you know, 
a menial type position, but if you can't even get there, the job 
will go to a non-Indian who has maybe a little more. 

In education, there is a large dropout rate. We have problems 
from the early childhood when a child goes to public school. 
Most of the areas where the Indians go are predominantly 
Mexican-American, and there usually is a lot of ridicule and this 
kind of stuff. 

Mr. Powell. Is any attention paid to special needs of Indian 
students ? 

Ms. Rumley. No, I don't think so. We are finding high school 
graduates who cannot read or write. Most of them are just 
pushed on from one class to the next until they drop out, and the 
ones who manage to stay in school are given a diploma. But 
education is not a good education if they can't read and write. 

Mr. Powell. What about the attitude of the State Employ- 
ment Service and potential employers? Do they refer Indians for 
the better jobs or are they limited to jobs such as maids and — 

Ms. Rumley. Most of the people who work for the employ- 
ment office in Tucson have sort of stereotyped Indians into the 
menial labor, the yard work, the domestic service-type jobs. 
They are referred to these types of jobs rather than the others. 
That's probably one reason you don't see Indians in clerical jobs. 

Mr. Powell. Do Indians have access to poverty type programs? 

Ms. Rumley. Like food stamps and things? 

Mr. Powell. OEO. Community Action. 

Ms. Rumley. The Indian Center is sort of funded, at least 
they pay the salaries of two people, but there is no program 
money, and whatever money we do get for programs we have to 
raise in some other way. Programs like food stamps and some of 
the others are not really getting down to the Indian. 

Mr. Powell. I'm talking from the standpoint of administering 
the program. Are Indians involved in the administration of these 


programs? Are they directors of any of these programs? Do 
they have significant positions in any of these programs? 
Ms. Rumley. No. Just the Indian Center. 

Mr. Powell. I understand that you are equal employment 
opportunity officer with Indian Health Service. Is that correct? 
Ms. Rumley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. What kind of positions do Indians have in the 
Indian Health Service? Do they have responsible positions? Are 
there many Indians employed by the Health Service? 

Ms. Rumley. Well, in the area where I am, you have, say, 50 
percent Indians, but most of these are in the lower grades. I 
think, in the area where I am the program that came out from 
Washington is a program to develop systems and, you know, 
other methods for providing health care to the Indian. It's a 
testing ground, you might say. When they first came out, they 
said that the Papagos would be employed and would be, you 
know — The highest Papago is grade 9. 

Mr. Powell. Then you would say that Indians do not get 
adequate promotional opportunities? 

Ms. Rumley. They didn't. We were beginning to see an equal 
employment opportunity when that program came in, then, you 
know, we started doing something. 

Mr. Powell. In selecting employees for the Indian Health 
Service, do you feel that adequate emphasis is given to hiring 
people who are sensitive to Indian needs, hiring Indians who 
know the Indians and what the nature of their problem is? Are 
such people used to orient employees and professional staff of 
the Indian Health Service? 

Ms. Rumley. Well, no, because it's sort of a unique type of 
situation. It's not like the hospital or the — you know — a hospital 
on a reservation. It is a hospital on a reservation but the people 
used are mostly technical-type people, and it is kind of hard to 
find Indians to fill these type of positions. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Parvello, what problems do Indians in South 
Tucson face in obtaining adequate health care? 

Ms. Parvello. I'd say the main problem is that a lot of people 
don't even have transportation to go for, just to get a checkup 
or, you know, any of the close — Like for instance the closest 
Indian Health Service clinic is out at San Xavier which is 
about 8 miles from Tucson. And people in South Tucson as far 
as the Indian Center goes; they provide transportation 2 days a 
week. That's like Tuesdays and Fridays. 

Mr. Powell. And if you're ill on some other day you just 
don't have transportation? Is that right? 

Ms. Parvello. You can't get to the clinic. 

Mr. Powell. If you go on Tuesdays and Fridays you have to 
wait a long time ? 


Ms. Parvello. Right. And this transportation is just by 
privately owned cars, and it's a lot of risk, because sometimes we 
have had like 13 people to take out there, and we had to wait 
for them at the Center until they called at, say, like 6 o'clock in 
the evening for us to go after them. And this isn't, you know, 
fair to the people at all. Because they should be — they should 
have some kind of — health care that's better for them. 

Mr. Powell. What about the Pima County Hospital? Can 
Indians use that to obtain health care ? 

Ms. Parvello. Well, yes, but there were times they just really 
didn't want to treat you if you were Indian because they felt that 
you could go out to either Sells or San Xavier and get care there. 

But as far as San Xavier goes, now it's just an outpatient 

A lot of the complaints from the people were that they just 
don't want to go there and wait for so many hours just to see a 
doctor, and at the same time they don't really understand the 
procedures or questions asked of them; you know, whether they 
are eligible or not for county care. 

Mr. Powell. What is the Indian Health Service unit we're 
talking about? 

Ms. Parvello. This is out at San Xavier. 

Mr. Powell. Is there some question regarding service there, 
about treatment of urban Indians? Do they raise questions about 
whether or not urban Indians are entitled to be treated there? 

Ms. Rumley. There was a time when the county hospital 
referred Indians or told the Indian that he belongs to the 
Federal Government, you know: "You go over there." On the 
other hand, when he arrived at the Public Health Service, he 
was told, "You are an urban Indian. You can't go here." So as 
a result many problems are cropping up now. For instance, in 
birth certificates, when you get birth certificates. A lot of the 
people had to have their births at home. So now that the kiddies 
are ready to go to school, they are not even born according to the 
registration thing. They haven't been registered because they 
were born at home. This problem has been sort of cleared up 
now because they take the urban Indian. 

Mr. Powell. Who? The Indian Health Service takes the 
urban Indian ? 

Ms. Rumley. Yes, if you can get to their facilities. As Carol 
mentioned, transportation is the biggest problem. You have to 
pay somebody to take you. Either that or you take a taxicab, 
which is — You know, most of these people don't have the 
money. If they did, they would go to a private doctor. 
Health Service do for emergencies, people drastically ill? Is 

Mr. Powell. What about emergencies? What does the Indian 


there any transportation at all? Is there an ambulance service 
they use ? 

Ms. Rumley. No, not for the Indians in the city. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Parvello, would you please describe the health 
care your father received prior to his death? I understand there 
was a problem. 

Ms. Parvello. Yes. Well, we have always lived in South Tuc- 
son, and during that time — I think it was in the '60's — we had 
some difficulty in trying to get treatment for my father. He had 
been drinking and he had been picked up by the city police and 
taken to the city jail. During the time that he was there he had 
a fight with another inmate, and I guess he was beaten badly, 
and the police, you know, really didn't want to take him down to 
the clinic. 

And then after they felt, you know, some of the other inmates 
were saying, you know, that he was really sick, that he was, you 
know, hurt, so then when the police, I guess, whoever, finally 
realized that he did — that he was having difficulty — they took 
him to the county hospital. He was examined there but they felt 
that there was nothing really wrong with him, and so they sent 
him back to the jail. And then after he finished his sentence he 
was released, and after that he was having severe headaches, 
and was not even able to walk home after he was released from 
the jail. So he managed to make it home somehow, and later 
that evening, we took him to the hospital. 

Mr. Powell. This is the Indian Service Hospital ? 

Ms. Parvello. No, this is the county hospital. 

Mr. Powell. County hospital ? 

Ms. Parvello. And we got the same response, that there was 
really nothing wrong with him. So at that time there was a black 
minister who was head of the NAACP, at the clinic at the time. 
He said there was something really wrong with him, and he told 
the doctors that they better get on moving before, you know, 
something happened. 

So when they found out who the minister was, they started. 
They rushed him to surgery and examined him again, but he had 
been hemorrhaging all that time. And what happened was that 
he never — he had received a concussion I guess and never really — 
after the surgery he never really came out of a coma and died 
shortly after that. 

This is not only — I'm not saying this is just one, particular 
case. But like even in South Tucson we have had, you know, some 
accidents that a lot of people couldn't explain as far as South 
Tucson police. 

Mr. Powell. You think this was — the attitude of the county 
hospital people at that time — was representative of their attitude 
towards Indians generally? 


Ms. Parvello. Right. You know, "This is just another drunken 
Indian," they couldn't really do anything for him. 

Mr. Powell. Did they resist, also, because they felt the In- 
dians should be sent to the Indian Health Service and they had no 
responsibility for him? 

Ms. Parvello. Right. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Ms. Rumley, would you tell the 
Commission whether you believe that there are any cultural 
considerations overlooked by those who are responsible for pro- 
viding certain social services? 

Ms. Rumley. Well, I don't know if you want to call it social 
services. I have one problem with the welfare rules and regula- 
tions, or what have you, being geared to the white man's way of 
doing things. For instance, in the case of a child who is living 
with, let's say, a grandmother, in the Indian culture a grand- 
mother can be the wife of the real grandfather, the blood grand- 
father, but the child cannot get ADC because the grandfather 
died and the grandmother or the person who is in the Indian 
way a grandmother is not a blood relative. They say that the 
relationship ends when the person who is the blood relative 

This has happened many times, not only in one case. They will 
say, "We can help the child but we have to put him in a foster 
home." This little threat, you might say, has stopped many 
families from trying to go any further to get aid for the child. 

I have been asking questions around from different people, 
and I understand it isn't only the people in Tucson. There are 
other reservations that have had this same type of problem. We 
feel our responsibilities as the kin of anybody and we don't 
relinquish our responsibility to the child when somebody dies. 

Commissioner Freeman. Are you saying then that there is a 
failure to recognize the Indian's definition of family or the so- 
called extended family and that another definition is imposed 
upon you ? 

Ms. Rumley. Yes. And because of this the child is denied 
support from the ADC program. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz, do you have 
any questions? 

Commissioner Ruiz. What happens if a person who has his 
home outside of the limits of the clinic boundary becomes ill 
or suffers from some injury that immobilizes him and he can't 
be moved on Tuesday or Thursday? Does he just stay there 
where he is until he dies or gets well? 

Ms. Rumley. That has happened in many cases, but I don't 
know. If there's somebody around who can push and prod and, 
you know, ask questions and try to get some sort of help — I 


think right now there is a situation that exists, and I think 
Ms. Parvello knows more about that. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Has any request ever been made for the 
delivery of these health services to areas outside of the clinic 
boundaries by way of an ambulance or a truck with medical 
supplies, anything of that nature? 

Ms. Rumley. Well, what the Pima County Hospital, which is 
so overcrowded as it is, you know — We have had some meetings, 
because there were problems. For instance, if a person has a 
house, even though it's a shack, he's not eligible for county 
services, Pima County services, because he has property. And 
yet many times, the house is just a little shack. It's not — 

Commissioner Ruiz. In other words, there are a great many 
areas where you just don't have any health services whatso- 

Ms. Rumley. That's right. 

Commissioner Ruiz. No further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Ms. Rumley, would such a thing as 
a mobile health unit, that could move from place to place on a 
sort of continuous basis with a schedule, sort of bringing the 
health service to the people — would this be acceptable to the 
persons who need these services? 

Ms. Rumley. It probably would be acceptable if you have 
people who can speak the language, who can understand and 
communicate with the patients. In many cases it's impossible 
to communicate with either the — 

Commissioner Freeman. If it would be serviced, if the per- 
sonnel would be persons who know the language, whether they 
are members of the same tribe or not, at least if they could com- 
municate, would this be acceptable? 

Ms. Rumley. Probably would. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs, do you have any ques- 

Mr. Buggs. Just one. A few words about the Model Cities 
program. At one time I was connected with it in Washington. 
Is South Tucson a part of the incorporated area of the city? Or 
is it a separately incorporated community? 

Ms. Parvello. Right. It's a town all itself, you know. 

Mr. Buggs. Is it contiguous — 

Ms. Parvello. Has its own town council, city government, 

Mr. Buggs. Is it contiguous with the city of Tucson? Do 
they connect? Does South Tucson abut Tucson? 

Ms. Parvello. Yes. 

Ms. Rumley. It's right in the middle. It's surrounded by 
the city. 


Mr. Buggs. Where is the Model City target area with respect 
to South Tucson ? 

Ms. Parvello. It ends right — the boundary line ends right 
where our Indian Center is located. 

Mr. Buggs. Well, — 

Ms. Rumley. Partially in South Tucson. 

Ms. Parvello. Part of South Tucson. 

Mr. Buggs. Some time ago the rules were changed — I don't 
know whether South Tucson was told this — so that the city of 
Tucson and city of South Tucson may apply to the Department 
of Housing and Urban Development, the Model Cities Adminis- 
tration, to extend the target area. Was that done? 

Ms. Parvello. It has been extended I think this past year. 

Mr. Buggs. Does it now include the Indian community of 
South Tucson? 

Ms. Parvello. Right. Most of it. 

Mr. Buggs. So now you can use the neighborhood health care 

Ms. Rumley. No. 

Ms. Parvello. No, there's only one — This is only a pilot proj- 
ect that we're talking about, the neighborhood health center, 
and this is for the original Model Cities area. This was to serve, 
like, 10,000 people in the Model City area. 

Mr. Buggs. Was a petition made to extend the boundaries so 
that it could include other people? 

Ms. Parvello. No, because already the clinic is overcrowded 
as far as receiving some of the patients from the county hospital. 

Mr. Buggs. Was a petition made to set up another clinic? 

Ms. Parvello. No. 

Mr. Powell. Or to increase the existing one? 

Ms. Parvello. No. 

Mr. Buggs. Well, it could be done. I simply want to let you 
know that. And maybe when you go back you ought to raise 
the question with the city fathers in Tucson. 

Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Ms. Parvello, do you have an opinion 
— I believe Ms. Rumley responded to Commissioner Ruiz's ques- 
tion concerning the Tuesdays and Fridays or Thursdays — of what 
would happen if you got so sick that you could not be moved, 
if a person got so sick he or she could not be moved? Would 
you like to comment on that? 

Ms. Parvello. Yes. Tuesdays and Thursdays, when we go out 
to the clinic, sometimes some of the people can't even make it to 
the Center to go to the clinic. But a lot of times these people 
either have to find some way, that they can get to the county 
hospital, and even if they get that far they are still discouraged 
about having to go through the whole thing of, you know, "Are 


you eligible for county care?" and all this. And then if they are 
so sick that they have to go to the hospital, they have to wait 
some time before they can say they can go either to the Health 
Service or maybe there's a hospital available — a bed available — 
at one of the hospitals right in the Tucson area. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. You may be 

We will now take a lunch break. This hearing is in recess 
until 1:30. 

(Whereupon, at 12: 17 p.m., the hearing was recessed, to be 
reconvened at 1: 30 p.m., this date.) 

1:30 p.m. 

Commissioner Freeman. This afternoon's session of the civil 
rights hearing is now called to order. Before we call the next 
witness, I would like to recognize the presence of other members 
of the State Advisory Committees. Mrs. Rita Madrid, a member 
of the Arizona State Committee. 

Will you stand, please? 

Mrs. Juana Lyon, member of the Arizona Committee, who is 
also going to join the Commission and assist us. 

Mr. Herb Grier, will you stand? And Mrs. Connie Salisbury, 
members of the New Mexico Committee. 

Thank you for your interest and presence. 

Now, our first witness for this afternoon is Mr. Milford M. 
Sanderson, Federal Programs Director of the Ganado Public 
School System. Is Mr. Sanderson here? Will you come forward, 
please ? 

Mr. Sanderson, will you raise your right hand to be sworn? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Milford M. Sanderson was sworn by Com- 
missioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. Mr. Powell, will 
you proceed ? 

Mr. Powell. Would you please state your name, tribal affilia- 
tion, and occupation for the record? 

Mr. Sanderson. My name is Milford M. Sanderson. Director 
of Federal Programs for the Ganado Public School System, 
Ganado, Arizona. I am affiliated with the Hopi tribe. 

Mr. Powell. I understand until very recently you were a 
resident of Phoenix. Is that right? 

Mr. Sanderson. That is true. 

Mr. Powell. And that you were active in various community 
groups in Phoenix. In what activities did you serve? 


Mr. Sanderson. What Indian activities? 

Mr. Powell. In what capacities did you serve? 

Mr. Sanderson. For a number of years I was the president 
of the Amerind Chapter here in Phoenix — an Indian civil rights 
organization. And I was the president of the American Indian 

Mr. Powell. What is the purpose of the American Indian 

Mr. Sanderson. The American Indian Forum has several 
purposes that are stated in its constitution and bylaws. How- 
ever, basically, the American Indian Forum was created after 
a paper from the Indian Health Service stated that there would 
be a possible curtailment of Indian health services to the Indi- 
ans who lived in the metropolitan area of Phoenix. 

Mr. Powell. How and when did this issue arise? 

Mr. Sanderson. I can't tell you the exact month, but it was 
this year. It was in the early part of this year. 

Mr. Powell. And what were the circumstances which gave 
rise to this dichotomy in the attitude of the Indian Health Serv- 
ice between urban Indians and Indians on the reservation? 

Mr. Sanderson. Would you state your question again, please? 

Mr. Powell. What were the circumstances which gave rise 
to the difference in attitude by the Indian Health Service with 
respect to services to reservation Indians in contradistinction 
to Indians who live in metroplitan areas ? 

Mr. Sanderson. It was stated by the Indian Health Service 
that individual Indians are not entitled to services provided by 
the Indian Health Service. The individual Indian becomes eli- 
gible for health services through membership in a group, tribe, 
or band for whom Congress has given the responsibility to Indian 
Health Service for providing health services. 

Mr. Powell. Isn't it true that urban Indians are nevertheless 
members of tribes? Aren't Indians who live in metropolitan 
areas members of tribes? 

Mr. Sanderson. For the most part, yes, it is true. And, in fact, 
I can speak for the State of Arizona that probably 90 percent 
of the Indian people who live in the Phoenix metropolitan area 
can identify themselves with a particular tribe. They can prob- 
ably go to the extent that they can state their census number, 
tribal enrollment number, the amount of relatives living on a 
reservation who are directly related to them. 

Mr. Powell. Then, if Indians who live in metropolitan areas 
are members of tribes, and if individual Indians are entitled to 
health services by virtue of tribal membership, there must be 
some other reason why the Indian Health Service drew this dis- 
tinction. Did it have something to do with the resources of 
Indian Health Service? 


Mr. Sanderson. Let me state something else before I get to 
that. First of all, it has been stated that services by the Indian 
Health Service can be given to those Indians living on the reser- 
vation or near the reservation. That is one thing. 

The second part of your question, please? 

Mr. Powell. Well, so long as Indians are members of tribes, 
as I understand it, they are entitled to services of the Indian 
health facility. Then, if that is true, tribal members who live in 
metropolitan areas would be entitled to the services of the In- 
dian Health Service, would they not? 

Mr. Sanderson. Not necessarily, according to the Indian 
Health Service. 

Mr. Powell. Why not? Do inadequate resources have some- 
thing to do with this position? 

Mr. Sanderson. In this position paper that was put out, the 
paper said that they did serve urban Indians, but due to the 
amount of money, funding, the amount of staff available, that 
if the time came when the staff and funds were inadequate the 
urban Indians or those people living in metropolitan areas would 
have to have their services curtailed. 

Mr. Powell. So their position didn't have anything to do 
with right of Indians to receive this service? That's acknowledged 
as long as they are tribal members? It had something to do 
with resources? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. But — 

Mr. Powell. Do you agree with that position, Mr. Sanderson? 

Mr. Sanderson. No. 

Mr. Powell. Why not? What are your views on it? 

Mr. Sanderson. Well, first of all — I said no because there's 
something else to that. 

Mr. Powell. Proceed. 

Mr. Sanderson. First of all, there are rules and regulations 
from Washington, D. C, that are directed to the various tribal 
organizations, tribal councils. Now, the Indian people who go to 
the cities to make a living, to go to school, maybe even to go 
to be able to exist, are not recognized by their own tribes. 
Once they cross a reservation border, the tribe has no concern 
for them. At least there has been no kind of definite concern, 
where, say, for instance, if a Hopi Indian goes to the Indian 
Health Service hospital and is denied services, it would seem that 
the Hopi Indian could call his own tribal council or council 
chairman and say, "Look, I have been denied services at the 
Indian hospital in Phoenix. Can you help me?" I believe that all 
it would take would be a phone call from that tribal chairman 
down to the director of that hospital, "Serve our own people. 
They are members of our tribe. We don't care where they live." 

Mr. Powell. What you seem to be saying is there are two 


reasons why urban Indians don't get service. One is the position 
of the Indian Health Service — although the Indian Health Serv- 
ice — 

Mr. Sanderson. That's right. 

Mr. Powell. — is serving urban Indians now — because of re- 
sources. The other is in the case of some tribes they do not 
support the petition of the urban Indian for services from the 
Indian Health Service. 

One of our SAC members here tells me this isn't true in every 
case, that the Navajo tribe, for example, supports — 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes, I was going to refer to that. 

Mr. Powell. We would not want to get the record to be mislead- 
ing. We would like to have the general picture. It may be that 
the Hopi position is an exceptional position. 

The testimony we heard in New Mexico tended to indicate 
that tribes were supporting the efforts of urban Indians to get 
services in Indian Health Service facilities. 

Mr. Sanderson. I was using the Hopi tribe as an example. 
Whether this kind of situation has, in fact, happened is not 
known at this time. 

Mr. Powell. All right. Now, regarding urban Indians who 
sometimes don't get treated at Indian Health Service facilities, 
are there any alternative health services available to them? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Go ahead. 

Mr. Sanderson. There are services that are available from 
the State, county, city medical units. 

Mr. Powell. Do the urban Indians prefer to be treated at 
the Indian Health Service facilities ? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Why is this? 

Mr. Sanderson. Well, because of two basic reasons. First of 
all, they feel that they are Indian no matter where they are. 
They feel that they have a direct relation to a particular tribe, 
and, therefore, they should be served at an Indian hospital just 
like any other Indian is served who comes from a reservation. 

The second thing is that the — It's just — I don't know how to 
say it — 

Mr. Powell. Well, let's go on to something else. 

Mr. Sanderson. All right. 

Mr. Powell. Perhaps you'll think of it. 

What about the question of control? Is there any mechanism 
of control over the Indian Health Service facilities? For example, 
they have Indian advisory boards which are supposed to be in- 
volved in decision-making. What are your views on this question? 

Mr. Sanderson. Well, first of all, I do know that they exist. 
I do know that each tribe does send a representative to the 


advisory board. They do hold monthly meetings. And I'm ac- 
quainted with the president of the advisory board for the Indian 
health — Phoenix Indian health unit here. 

Mr. Powell. Do you think they exercise any effective control? 

Mr. Sanderson. Well, I was saying that even though these 
things are happening, I do not feel that they do have the 
maximum amount of power to hire, to fire, to set policy, to spend 
allocated monies. 

Mr. Powell. I see. What recommendations, Mr. Sanderson, 
would you give to alleviate the problem associated with the 
eligibility question? 

Mr. Sanderson. Well, the first thing I think that needs to be 
examined is that, first of all, one must know that each tribal 
government exists for its own people. 

As you know, there is a past history of Indian people not 
really coming together as a cohesive group as you find in blacks 
and Chicanos. We call this tribalism. Now, some people say it's 
bad; some say it's good. You know there's pros and cons on it. 

But any person who is not living on a reservation — And I 
speak of urban Indians — if there's anything to be done to immedi- 
ately help, say, those Indian people living off the reservation, 
it's this: Let's go ahead and say, okay, tribalism is fine. Now, if 
tribalism is fine, then those people, Indians, who live in an ur- 
ban setting who can identify themselves with the tribes should 
be recognized by those tribes, by their own tribes, recognized 
to the point where — Such as the Navajo. I don't think that you 
can ever find an urban Navajo Indian, and the reason why is be- 
cause their tribe recognizes them wherever they are. There is 
a Navajo group in Los Angeles, in Dallas, in Phoenix, and other 
urban groups that are even allowed to vote for their own tribal 
council chairman. They are allowed a voice in their tribal govern- 
ment. But this is only one particular case, and I don't think you 
will find many other cases such as this. 

Once you have the tribes recognizing their own people in the 
cities and taking an advocacy role and saying, "Look, we don't 
care where our own tribal people live ; serve them," or, you know, 
use whatever tribal power there is to back these people — Other- 
wise, there just might be a chance for the civil rights of that 
individual being violated. 

Because the Government is saying, "You must live on a reser- 
vation or near the reservation to receive services, and the tribe, 
some of the tribes, may be parroting the same thing and saying, 
"We can't do anything for our people unless they live on our 
own reservation or near our reservation," which again — I mean 
is it right to deny a person a place — deny a person the right to 
live anywhere he wants to ? 

Mr. Powell. That was on the issue of eligibility. What steps 


would you suggest be taken so that Indians could achieve greater 
control over the institutions which affect their lives? For ex- 
ample, the Indian Health Service facilities. What steps do you 
think should be taken in that regard? 

Mr. Sanderson. I think the Indian Health Service itself is 
making an attempt to start this. However, we won't feel this 
until a number of years have passed. And that is, I believe, in 
the University of Southern California where they do have an 
Indian Health Service training program to train Indians to take 
over managerial positions, administrative positions. But I think 
that the Indian Health Service, first of all, doesn't seem to take 
the position of advocacy for the Indians. In other words, what 
I'm saying is the hospital doesn't exist for the Indians. It's the 
Indians that exist for the hospital. 

Mr. Powell. I have no further questions, Madame Chairman. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Sanderson, I would like to 
pursue with you this concept of the Indian Health Service. 
And I may be repeating a little bit, but I want to be sure that 
I understand you, because it seems to me that we are talking 
about the Indian Health Service as a service or facility that is 
federally funded. Is that correct? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. And are you saying that in the 
service, as administered, there may be Indians who are denied 
the service — 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. — solely because they happen not to 
meet a certain definition — 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. — and that this definition of urban 
Indian or non-reservation Indian is imposed by the Indian 
Health Service? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, let's then look at the Indian 
Health Service in a little bit more detail. Will you tell the 
Commission something about who is in control — the individuals 
who are in control of the Indian Health Service? Who are they — 
again you may be repeating — the persons who make the deci- 
sion that a non-reservation Indian is not eligible — who are these 

Mr. Sanderson. They are people in Washington. I was in 
Washington in the early part of this year talking to the head 
of the Indian Health Service. He said, "Well, that's the Con- 
gressional intent, and we follow Congressional intent, and we 
cannot begin to change Congressional intent. The only people 
that can change Congressional intent are you Indian people." 


Now, and so, consequently, it's a matter of interpretation of 
rules and regulations. 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, Mr. Sanderson, I would not 
ask you to identify that person at this hearing because of our 
rules, but I would like to ask you, however, if you will make 
available to this Commission in writing the names of the per- 
sons in Washington who have stated to you that it is Congres- 
sional intent that the non-reservation Indian be denied access 
to Indian health service. Will you make that information avail- 
able to this Commission ? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you also indicate for us, if it is 
not a decision that is made in Washington, is there any area 
control, regional office control, or tribal control of the Indian 
Health Service in terms of the rules and regulations as to who 
shall be served ? 

Mr. Sanderson. Oh. Okay. Yes. I'll attempt to answer your 

First of all, there is tribal input into this decision. Now, 
whether it's official or not, there is such an attitude as, "We 
don't want the Indian Health Service to extend its services to 
urban Indians because there are more urban Indians than res- 
ervation Indians, and, therefore, they will take away the 
amount of funding given to Indian health services and staff, 
and so forth, and that way our own reservation people will 
not have the adequate services that they need." 

That's the input of the tribal councils. 

The administrators here in the area, backed with that kind 
of thinking from the tribes, will, of course, continue to emit 
that same kind of — I mean will continue to deny — because 
they will not and do not want to offend the tribal councils. 

Commissioner Freeman. I would like to ask you to comment 
on this statement: A non-reservation Indian may not be a 
member of a federally-recognized Indian tribe, but the urban 
Indians we are discussing usually are. 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. I think what the Chairman means here is that 
if a non-reservation Indian is not a member of a tribe by virtue 
of the definition we have been discussing, that Indian would not 
be entitled to services of the Indian Health Service facilities. 

Mr. Sanderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. But an urban Indian or non-reservation Indian 
who is a member of a tribe would be entitled to such services. 
Now, is it these Indians that you are talking about that tribes 
do not support — the Indians who by virtue of their tribal mem- 
bership would be entitled to Indian Health Service facilities? 

Mr. Sanderson. Let me try it again now. There are such 


people, Indian people, who are termed urban Indians. Those ur- 
ban Indians are those Indians living within a metropolitan area 
of any urban area. Now, those people, those Indian people, may 
be members of various tribes. You'll find this true here in 
Phoenix. Now, it constitutes two kinds of Indians — those Indi- 
ans that are affiliated with a federally-recognized tribe and those 
Indians that belong to a non-federally-recognized tribe. 

Mr. Powell. That second group we don't need to discuss for 
purposes of this analysis, do we? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. That's another problem. That's a problem, but 
that's another problem. 

Mr. Sanderson. That is a problem, but it's beyond what I'm 
talking about now. 

Mr. Powell. Let's talk about the tribal members who live in 
metropolitan areas. 

Mr. Sanderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. What about them? Are you saying the tribes 
don't support members who live in metroplitan areas? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. I see. Is that the generally held view among 

Mr. Sanderson. In my opinion, yes. 

Mr. Powell. I understand there is more than one point of 
view on that. Perhaps we will hear from others on it too. 

Mr. Sanderson. Well, what do you mean by "support?" 

Mr. Powell. You were suggesting that one reason why urban 
Indians who live in the metropolitan areas have difficulty in get- 
ting services from Indian Health Service facilities is that their 
tribal brothers on the reservations don't support their right 
to receive such services, if I understood you. 

Mr. Sanderson. No. I said that the Indian people — Now, let's 
take the city of Phoenix. Those that live in the city of Phoenix, 
a majority of them, can go today, this hour, to the Indian hospi- 
tal and receive services. 

Mr. Powell. That's our understanding, yes. 

Mr. Sanderson. Okay. But at one point in time, as indi- 
cated by this paper here, because of lack of funding, staff, the 
people that are going to be curtailed are the urban Indians. 

Now, — 

Mr. Powell. That was the position of the Indian Health 
Service regarding priorities. Right? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. You referred to a paper there. Which paper is 
thai; to which you refer? 


Mr. Sanderson. This is a paper entitled "Availability of 
Health Services to Phoenix Urban Indians." 

Mr. Powell. May we have a copy of that for the record? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman? 

Commissioner Freeman. It will be received. 

(Whereupon, the document referred to was marked as Ex- 
hibit No. 4 and received in evidence.) 

Mr. Sanderson. But I'm saying that under that circumstance, 
you know, no Indians are being denied yet. Yet. But if, in fact, 
they are denied — and presently some of them can't turn to their 
tribal councils for assistance, you see, because there hasn't been 
that kind of backing officially or unofficially — 

Mr. Powell. I don't know why you say they can't turn to 
their tribal council. That position you are discussing is an Indian 
Health Service position which is based upon lack of priorities. 
That's quite apart from whatever tribal leaders do, positions they 
do and do not take, unless there is some evidence — 

Mr. Sanderson. Okay. Well, let's say it this way then. I 
have not heard of an Indian person, individual, who has been 
denied services from the Indian Health Service that has gone 
to his tribe and asked for assistance, for backing, — 

Mr. Powell. Perhaps if he went to his tribe and sought such 
assistance he would get it then. 

Mr. Sanderson. It's possible. 

Mr. Powell. All right. Okay. I have no further questions, 
Madam Chairman. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz, do you have 
any questions ? 

Commissioner Ruiz. You mentioned that the University of 
Southern California has a training program for Indian Health 
Service of some kind. Is this something that is just starting? 

Mr. Sanderson. I believe it's a very recent program — in 
the past year or two. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Do you know how they are recruiting this 

Mr. Sanderon. Not specifically. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Have you had any experience whatsoever? 

Mr. Sanderson. I do know there was a lady that came out to 
various parts of Arizona to talk about the project and to en- 
courage Indian students to partake in the program, but I don't 
know — I saw her at two meetings, but perhaps she has done 
more than that. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Well, now, so that talented Indians will 
not be separated from their tribes by attending school of gen- 
eral outside jurisdictions such as the University of Southern 
California, and so that this type of talent will not be separated 


from the traditions and the customs of the local reservation, 
could not medical instructions — Or has there been any at- 
tempt to get medical instructions and training so that it would 
take place on the reservation with local Indian medical doctors 
who would participate in these training programs? Has that 
been attempted? 

Mr. Sanderson. I think it has been attempted to some extent, 
but it's only in the very lower echelons of the Indian hospital 
employment structure. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Is that something that's good? 

Mr. Sanderson. Well, it just indicates that you'll find most of 
the janitors and nurses' aides and what have you, the floor- 
sweepers, being Indians. 

Commissioner Ruiz. No, I'm speaking about medical interns, 
medical training. If outside trainers could come in to the area to 
train for medicine instead of sending the talent to some other 
university to train for medicine. Has there been any attempt to 
do that? I'm not talking about janitors. 

Mr. Sanderson. Right. Okay. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Has that been attempted in any fashion? 

Mr. Sanderson. I think it has been to some extent but not to 
where I can say, yes, you know, and feel good about it. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Well, has that been — If it's good, would 
some program along that line, to exercise activity in that sense, 
be of assistance ? 

Mr. Sanderson. Sure. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And you feel that you could get your 
people to back such a program ? 

Mr. Sanderson. I can't guarantee that. It hasn't been tried, 
you know, and some — But it seems like a feasible idea. 

Commissioner Ruiz. It would be innovative, as they call it, a 
new program, but it might be feasible ? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And would possibly be good? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. That's all. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs, do you have any ques- 
tions ? 

Mr. Buggs. Just a couple of questions, Mr. Sanderson. You 
indicated that the rule is that health services will be provided 
Indians who live on or near the reservation. I understand what 
living on a reservation means, but has anyone ever defined what 
"near a reservation" is? 

Mr. Sanderson. I have heard that stated. However I haven't 
examined that in its entirety. But, for instance, those Indians 
living in, say, Flagstaff, Holbrook, Winslow, Gallup, they are 
served by the Indian Health Service. 


Mr. Buggs. How far are they from a reservation? 

Mr. Sanderson. Oh, anywhere from 9 miles to 20 miles. 

Mr. Buggs. Well, is there a limit beyond which services would 
not be provided? I still don't know what "near" means. Is it 10 
miles, 20 miles, or — 

Mr. Sanderson. I couldn't answer. I couldn't answer that. 

Mr. Buggs. I see. And the other question is: Does it have to 
be near his reservation or a reservation with which he is in 
some way affiliated? Or any reservation? In other words, could 
a Hopi Indian living near a Navajo reservation be eligible? 

Mr. Sanderson. I'd have to answer yes in that particular 
circumstance because, you know, it is, in fact — they are living 
with reservations adjacent, you know. 

Mr. Buggs. Suppose they were not adjacent. 

Mr. Sanderson. Okay. To my knowledge, of those Indians 
that I know of, they are getting Indian health services, yes. 

Mr. Buggs. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. I believe Mr. Powell has another 

Mr. Powell. Yes. You stated that in principle the county 
hospitals, municipal hospitals should be available to Indians. 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Does that actually happen in practice? Our in- 
vestigation indicates that often when Indians go to municipal 
hospitals they are referred back to the Indian Health Service. 

Mr. Sanderson. That's true. It is true. An Indian will go to — 
There have been instances, particular instances, of Indians going 
to county hospital and that person who is sitting at the admis- 
sions desk will automatically say, "Well, you know, you're an 
Indian. You should be going to the Indian Health Service hospi- 

Mr. Powell. But aren't Indian citizens like other residents 
of the county? Aren't they entitled to services of the municipal 
hospital on the some basis as other residents ? 

Mr. Sanderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Sanderson, for how long a period 
has the situation existed — 

Mr. Sanderson. What situation? 

Commissioner Freeman. — that the municipal hospital has 
denied services to an Indian solely because he was an Indian? 
For how long has this been going on ? 

Mr. Sanderson. I don't think that you can say that, you 
know — It's a sporadic thing. You hear about it once in a while. 
But no one can really get down to the basic situation; particular 
individual situation. You might be able to send five Indians to 
that hospital and they'd all be served by the county hospital. 


But then the sixth one may go and he may get just the opposite 
kind of treatment. 

Mr. Powell. Let me clarify the record too. If an Indian can 
pay for services at a hospital, he would be served? 

Mr. Sanderson. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Powell. It's a matter of denying free services on a 
clinical basis that are provided to other indigent citizens of 
the community ? 

Mr. Sanderson. Uh huh. 

Mr. Powell. We're looking into this question. I believe, Madam 
Chairman, that a serious Title VI questions is presented where 
hospitals receive Federal funds and are denying services to 
any minority group, including Indians. And we're going to be in 
touch with the responsible officials in Public Health Service and 
HEW to explore that question. 

Commissioner Freeman. This is precisely why I was asking 
Mr. Sanderson if this has been going on for any length of time. 
We take the position that even if one person is denied solely be- 
cause of his race or ethnic position that this is in violation of 
Title VI, and we will certainly pursue this. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Sanderson. 

Mr. Buggs. Madam Chairman, may I just for the record indi- 
cate that one of our expert consultants here has indicated that 
there is a distinct difference in terms of what the definition of 
"near a reservation" is. It's pointed out that in California the 
whole State is considered to be near a reservation but not for 
purposes of the Public Health Service but only for the purpose 
of the utilization of Johnson-O'Malley funds. And it may be 
that we should look into that, too. 

Commissioner Freeman. Here again we are seeing that one 
of the very serious problems is with proper interpretation and 
practices of the Federal Government, which makes it even much 
more serious than even if it is local. 

Mr. Sanderson. May I make a comment, please? It seems that 
in my dealings with the hierarchy of Indian Health Service, 
nowhere did I ever find a feeling of advocacy for Indian people. 
I mean they know the problem exists but — 

Commissioner Freeman. I think we understand you, Mr. 

Mr. Sanderson. — you live within the rules and that's it. 
There's no kind of advocacy and saying, "Okay, there's a prob- 
lem. Let's do something about it." 

Commissioner Freeman. You see, what is even more serious 
to the Commission is that before getting to the point of advo- 
cacy there seem to be some denials and discrepancies that are 
very basic, and before we ever get to whether they are advocates 


of the Indian or not that there is a failure to recognize basic 
rights of citizenship. And this is much more serious. 

Thank you very much. 

Mr. Sanderson. Sure. 

Commissioner Freeman. The next two witnesses to be called 
are Mr. Marvin Mull and Mr. Roy Kitcheyan, and they will be 
questioned by Mr. Michael Smith, who is Assistant General 

Mr. Mull and Mr. Kitcheyan, will you come forward? Will 
you remain standing and be sworn, please? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Marvin Mull and Mr. Roy Kitcheyan were 
sworn by Commissioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 




Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. Mr. Smith. 

Mr. Smith. Will you each please state your name and posi- 
tion for the record? 

Mr. Mull. I'm Marvin Mull, Chairman of the San Carlos 
Apache Tribe. 

Mr. Kitcheyan. I'm Roy Kitcheyan, a tribal council member 
from San Carlos Apache Tribe. 

Mr. Smith. Chairman Mull, how large is the San Carlos 
Apache reservation, and how many members does the tribe 

Mr. Mull. We have over a million acres and our tribal enroll- 
ment is over 6,000. 

Mr. Smith. I take it that a majority of these people live in 
very rural areas? Is that right? 

Mr. Mull. Yes. 

Mr. Smith. Mr. Kitcheyan, you are chairman of the tribal 
health committee? Is that right? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. True. 

Mr. Smith. What facilities, what medical facilities, are avail- 
able to members of your tribe? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. Well, we have the Public Health Service on 
the reservation. 

Mr. Smith. What about facilities off the reservation, other 
facilities than the Public Health Service? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. Oft* the reservation ? 

Mr. Smith. Yes. For example, is there a county health facility 
near the reservation within commuting distance? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. Yes, there is a county hospital in Globe, 
Arizona, a few miles from the reservation. 

Mr. Smith. As chairman of the health committee, are you in 


a position to hear complaints from tribal members about the 
Indian Health Service facilities ? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Smith. Could you describe for us some of the complaints 
you hear? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. Yes, sir. First, we really have good coopera- 
tion starting with the area here in Phoenix, but the doctors in 
San Carlos — which the individual people on the reservation com- 
plain of is the doctors — that any time the patient is brought in 
to the hospital — there are about five doctors to the Indian Health 
Service — but after working hours, after 5 o'clock, there should be 
one available at all times. 

But sometimes an emergency matter is brought in by the am- 
bulance from Bylas — it's about 28 miles from San Carlos and this 
patient has to wait for the doctor to arrive for the treatment 
sometimes an hour or 2 hours. 

That's the only trouble we had on the reservation as long as 
I was the chairman of the health committee there. We usually 
meet every third Tuesday each month. I have been talking to the 
doctors about this matter, and I think they are doing okay now. 

Mr. Smith. You say until recently doctors were on call at the 
clinic only during normal working hours and that after 5 o'clock 
patients had to wait for doctors to come from their homes? Is 
that right? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. Correct. 

Mr. Smith. What happens if a patient is sick and can't get to 
the hospital? Are there facilities for a doctor to come to the pa- 
tient's home ? 

Mr. Kitcheyan. Negative. We had an ambulance, like I said 
before, from Bylas, 28 miles east of San Carlos, and this ambu- 
lance is available at all times, day and night, 24-hours. Any 
sickness or any emergency matter comes up they usually bring 
this patient to the hospital. But around San Carlos after work- 
ing hours we don't have any ambulance. We do have an ambu- 
lance at the hospital but we are short a driver. 

Mr. Smith. I see. Chairman Mull, are there any other health 
complaints that members of your tribe have that you would like 
to add? 

Mr. Mull. Yes. I personally have seen some of the problems 
we have had with the Public Health Service. One of them is a 
case where a man went to the hospital and he was in very 
much pain, and he had to wait in the hallway to see the doctor 
for over 2 hours. And he came back to my office, and he told me 
that he got tired of waiting and the pain was just getting 
worse and worse, so he happened to be with his nephew at the 
time, and I told his nephew, I said, "Why don't you go ahead 
and take your uncle into Globe to the county hospital and see 


what's wrong with him, have him checked over there?" And I 
knew this man didn't have any money, so I just told him to go 
ahead and tell the doctor or the hospital there to send us a bill. 
Well, about 2 weeks later the man came back, and he had an 
emergency operation, appendix. 

Now, there have been other cases similar to this like Roy just 
brought out a while ago, after working hours, and also on the 
holidays, where the Bureau officials have seen some of the cases 
themselves also. And it was said, you know, by one of the Bureau 
officials, "Why don't you put up a big sign in the public places 
here, 'Please don't get sick after working hours or on holidays.' " 
So, it's really true that it's just pretty hard, you know, to get 
the doctors to work on the emergency cases. 

Sometimes, if you have to ask the nurses, or the nurse to 
hurry the doctor up, and they say, "No, he's pretty tired, I'm not 
going to call him." 

Mr. Smith. Let me ask you this. The staff members of the 

Commission have heard complaints from time to time that the 

doctors at the health facilities are there only for a very short 

time and are rotated rapidly. Is that true of your reservation? 

Mr. Mull. Yes. 

Mr. Smith. And if so, what kind of problems does it pre- 
sent in terms of the doctor-patient relationship ? 

Mr. Mull. Well, that's true. They have to put in their time on 
the reservation. Now, some of these doctors, you know, are very 
good. They are very good doctors. And, well, we can tell right 
away, you know, if the doctors are very good, and we begin to 
like them, and when their time is up, you know, for them to 
leave, well, we hate to see them go, but they have to go. 

When the new doctors arrive, it seems like, we have to start 
all over again. And it really hurts to try it. 

Mr. Smith. You have a tribal health committee. Has this 
health committee been effective in bringing some of your com- 
plaints to the attention of the IHS and in getting the IHS to 
remedy some of these problems ? 

Mr. Mull. Well, the intent of the tribal council is that, yes, 
and we appoint a five-man committee from the tribal council, 
and they are to resolve some of the problems, and you know, 
that we have with the Public Health Service. 

Mr. Smith. Let me rephrase that question. Has the Public 

Health Service been responsive in answering these complaints, 

in remedying the problems that you bring to their attention? 

Mr. Mull. Some of them. On some of them they do, yes. Not 

all of them. 

Mr. Smith. Who administers law and order on your reserva- 

Mr. Mull. The Bureau of Indian Affairs. 


Mr. Smith. The Bureau of Indian Affairs does? Do you be- 
lieve that the tribe receives adequate law enforcement from the 
Bureau ? 

Mr. Mull. To me, I feel, you know, that the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs is more involved in tribal politics and not giving the 
service, you know, like they should to the Indian tribe as a whole 
on our reservation. 

Mr. Smith. So you believe that the law enforcement provided 
by the BIA is ineffective or inadequate? 

Mr. Mull. That's right. 

Mr. Smith. What could be done to improve this at San Car- 

Mr. Mull. Well, I think, you know, if they have the right 
kind of a man that will enforce the law instead of, you know, 
the superintendent himself hand-picks maybe some of his ac- 
quaintances, from another Indian reservation or maybe from 
back home and brings them down to the reservation — Well, 
they're not too effective at all. Like, for example, on our reserva- 
tion there has been a lot of lawbreaking, you know, and the 
tribe by resolution asked the law and order department to fol- 
low up on some of these things. Well, at first they said, "Yes, 
we'll do it." And then — Well, they did it just once, and after 
that, you know, they just forgot about it and it slackened up 
again. And we're in the same situation now, as when we asked 

Mr. Smith. Let me ask you about one other area. The Bureau 
on your reservation contracts out construction jobs to private 
contractors, does it not? 

Mr. Mull. Yes. 

Mr. Smith. Road construction and that kind of thing? 

Mr. Smith. That's right. 

Mr. Smith. Are you satisfied that members of your tribe are 
adequately and fully employed in these construction jobs? 

Mr. Mull. Well, they have done — I don't know — about four 
or five of them, and that's all. Right now, you know, we don't 
have any. 

Mr. Smith. Well, when private construction contractors come 
on the reservation to do work, as a general rule do they employ 
adequate numbers of Indians or do they not? 

Mr. Mull. We ask that to be done, but sometimes the con- 
tractors say, you know, that they have to have their own mem- 
bers, which are union members, and they come first. Or some- 
times, when some of our own local Indian boys are hired, then 
the contractor finds out about this. Then they say, "You better 
get rid of that Indian boy there or else make him join up with 
the union and then you can keep him on your payroll." 

Mr. Smith. Thank you. I have no further questions. 


Commissioner Freeman. Chairman Mull, there are two areas 
I would like to pursue. Because in response to Mr. Smith's ques- 
tion about who administers law and order, you said the Bureau 
of Indian Affairs. I would like to ask you again now: The Bureau 
of Indian Affairs — By that do you mean that they employ the 
persons who are involved in law enforcement, the police, et 
cetera? Well, then, I'd like to ask who are these employees, law 
enforcement personnel ? Are they Indians ? 

Mr. Mull. The criminal investigator, the head man of the 
law and order department, is an Indian, but he is not our 
member. He is not an Apache. He is of another Indian tribe 
from another reservation. He does the hiring. And when there 
is a vacancy, he takes the application. Most of our policemen 
are local Apache boys at San Carlos. 

But I'd like to further add, also, an incident happened here 
not too long ago where I asked our criminal investigator to ques- 
tion some of the suspects where a young man was beaten up 
pretty bad, and this criminal investigator said. "No, I can't do it 
unless I have a warrant." 

I said, "I don't think you need a warrant." 

He said, "Yes, I do." 

And then we kind of got into an argument over this, and 
then he began to tell me, you know, how he dislikes me. He said, 
"I don't like you at all, and I don't like what you stand for, and 
I don't like San Carlos at all." 

And he said, "If you want to," he said, "You can get rid of me 
and I can get the heck out of here the first thing in the morn- 

Now, this is word for word that I'm telling you. 

And then about half an hour later we were still talking, and a 
lady came in, you know, and she is one of the very respectable 
ladies on the reservation. She understands English very well. 
So I asked this officer here, "Won't you repeat just what you 
told me a while ago?" 

And he just threw up his arms like this and he said, "I deny 
the whole thing. I don't remember anything at all." And he said, 
"I'm not saying anything." 

And I said, "Well," I said, "Here's one of your officers, and 
he's a local Apache boy there." And I said, "He will be one of 
the witnesses." 



And he said, "How do you think — What makes you think that 
he's going to back you up? He's one of my boys. And he's not 
going to support you. He may be your relative but he's not going 
to support you as long as I have control over the law and order 


That's what he told me. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you then answer the other 
question that I have? And that is with respect to employment. 
Your statement was that the Bureau, which is again a Federal 
agency, a Federal contractor we'll say, contracts out construc- 
tion jobs, and your answer was that the Federal contractor has 
explained his refusal to hire Indians on the basis of the fact 
that he had a union contract. Again, this is in violation of 
Federal law. And I want to be sure that I am understanding 
you correctly. That is, are you saying, that the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs does not enforce its nondiscrimination provision of its 
Federal contract with private contractors who are engaged in 
construction contracts ? 

Mr. Mull. Well, we have had, you know, some money allo- 
cated, you know, by the Federal Government for road construc- 
tion. Like we had one bridge, you know. That was put in here 
within the last 60 days. And the money was put up by the Federal 
Government. And a white contractor from off the reservation 
came in and they did the contract. Now, we have had, you know, 
several of them like that in the past where they won't hire 
local Indian boys, you know, unless they are members of a union. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you tell us if you have taken 
any steps to try to correct this situation ? 

Mr. Mull. We have, and, you know, each time when we bring 
out some of the things that we'd like corrected, sometimes, it's 
just like going against a brick wall. We can't do anything. 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, maybe we can. We'll try. 

Commissioner Ruiz. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Well, on the subject of road construction, 
I assume that you do not have all-weather roads that pretty 
well cover an area of one million acres during the entire year. 

Mr. Mull. No. 

Commissioner Ruiz. I assume that there are families who do 
not even live near available roads. I assume that. Is that true? 

Mr. Mull. That's true. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Now, I also understand that we have one 
ambulance, to cover a million acres, which is available during 
the daytime only. Is that correct? 

Mr. Mull. Well, our reservation, you know, the community 
itself, we have two communities — San Carlos and Bylas. And we 
live close. We are not spread out, you know, like some other 
Indian reservations. Like the Navajos, they're spread out. 

Commissioner Ruiz. I see. 

Mr. Mull. But San Carlos Apaches are different. San Carlos 
itself is in one location, its community, and Bylas is 28 miles, 
which is another community. So we're not really spread out at 


Commissioner Ruiz. You're not spread out, and you have two 
communities, 28, 30 miles apart, and you have got one ambu- 

Mr. Mull. That's right. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Are you happy with that because you're 
not spread out? 

Mr. Mull. Well, not with the ambulance services at all. We're 
not happy with them. We have asked for an additional ambu- 
lance, and the local here, Phoenix health area office, promised 
that they would have an ambulance for us. And about a month 
later Mr. Kitcheyan and his committee met with the local San 
Carlos Public Health Service, and he told us that one of the 
doctors there said, "No, we don't need an additional ambulance." 
But the Public Health Service here in Phoenix said, "You can 
have one, another one." We never got it. 

Commissioner Ruiz. No more questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. No questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much, gentlemen. 
You may be excused. 

Mr. Mull. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Our next witness is Mr. West An- 

Will you remain standing? Will you raise your hand? 

(Whereupon, Mr. West Anderson was sworn by Commis- 
sioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Anderson, please state your name and posi- 
tion for the record. 

Mr. Anderson. My name is West Anderson. I am the Vice 
Chairman of the White Mountain Apache Tribe. 

Mr. Powell. On what tribal committees do you serve? 

Mr. Anderson. I serve on, talking about committees, the for- 
estry committee and several others. But my regular job is full- 
time job as the vice chairman, so I am involved in practically 
all the committees on the reservation. 

Mr. Powell. You are also on a community action project 
committee are you not? 

Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. You have lived on the Fort Apache reserva- 
tion all your life, have you not? 

Mr. Anderson. Right, born and raised on the reservation. 

Mr. Powell. How would you evaluate the health services pro- 
vided by the Indian Health Service facility on your reservation? 


Mr. Anderson. I believe we have made lots of improvements 
in the past years, but still there is need for more improvements. 
We have a service unit there on the reservation, and doctors, 
nurses, facilities are good, but, like I said, I think that there's 
need for more improvements. 

Mr. Powell. What about the frequent changeover of doctors? 
Is that a problem? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. We have a problem similar to the San 
Carlos Apache tribe. 

MR. Powell. What is the name of the Indian health facility 
on your reservation ? 

Mr. Anderson. Fort Apache Indian Reservation. The rota- 
tion of doctors every other year is our problem, because we have 
people that would like to stay with their doctor, particular doc- 
tors that come, and then by the time they get used to it and the 
doctors themselves get used to the particular family's medical 
records, then they have to go again. So I think that this should 
be improved. 

Mr. Powell. Once a doctor gets familiar with a patient's prob- 
lem, he moves on and a new doctor unfamiliar with that prob- 
lem comes on ? 

Mr. Anderson. Right. That's true. 

Mr. Powell. Tell me, do patients have to wait a long time at 
Fort Apache Indian Health Service facility? 

Mr. Anderson. That's right. They have to wait regardless 
whether they are in pain or not. And we have checked into it, 
and the Public Health Service tells us that they are understaffed 
due to lack of funding in some cases. 

Mr. Powell. Does the personnel at the Indian health facility 
attempt to engage in a mechanism whereby people with more 
serious problems do not have to wait and are treated? In New 
Mexico, for example, we heard that was done at one facility. 
Is that done at Fort Apache reservation ? 

Mr. Anderson. I believe they are working on it, because we 
have our tribal health committee that has been meeting with 
Public Health Service on the reservation. 

Mr. Powell. Do Indian people who feel they have serious 
problems often feel that those problems aren't treated and they 
merely get an aspirin and are sent home? 

Mr. Anderson. Right. We have numerous cases like that where 
our people go to the hospital and receive just pills. 

Mr. Powell. Does this make them reluctant to go to the In- 
dian health facility then? 

Mr. Anderson. Well, a very few are reluctant, and those few 
that have a little money go to an outside hospital that is about 
35 miles away. 

Mr. Powell. Is that an Indian Health Service facility? 


Mr. Anderson. It's a non-Indian hospital. 

Mr. Powell. Do they have to pay or do they get — 

Mr. Anderson. Right, they have to pay. And a good majority 
of the patients on the reservation go to the public health hospital 
because they, like I say, can't afford, you know — 

Mr. Powell. Is there an Indian advisory board for this facil- 

Mr. Anderson. This off-the-reservation facility? 

Mr. Powell. No, the facility on the reservation. 

Mr. Anderson. Yes, we have a health committee, as we call 
them on the reservation. 

Mr. Powell. Do they endeavor to correct some of these prob- 
lems? And are they having much impact? 

Mr. Anderson. Not much impact. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have any examples of the kinds of treat- 
ment tribal members receive from the Indian Health Service 
clinic, the bad cases? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes, we have one of the cases where last 
summer an Indian, young Indian boy, 23 year old, and a bunch 
of other boys went down swimming, and the boy got injured 
down during their outing, and he went to — 

Mr. Powell. How was he injured? Do you have any informa- 
tion as to how he was injured? He was swimming, but what 
happened? Do you know? 

Mr. Anderson. I believe it was the hospital's job to find out. 
But anyway, he went to the hospital, and he was told that he 
was all right, and the boy complained that he was sick up in his 

And then one day he came in to my office and sat there, and 
he was — I'm not a doctor — but he was very sick, looked pale 
and weak. So I told him, "Go to the hospital immediately. You're 
very sick." 

Mr. Powell. Had he been to the hospital already when he saw 

Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. He had been once and you sent him back again? 

Mr. Anderson. Right. So he told me that, "I have been there 
several times and all I have been getting is pills." 

And then he went that day back, and he asked me to call 
his boss at our tribal sawmill, that he's on sick leave. So I did. 
And then next day he went back again, and that day the doctor 
told him that he was all right. 

Mr. Powell. This was the second time? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. Written a note. And then he died the 
same day. So this was shocking to the supervisor at the sawmill 
that a note was written. 


Mr. Powell. Our inquiry into the matter suggests that the 
young boy attended the hospital three times. 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. And that he arrived at the hospital on the third 
occasion dead. 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Was there an autopsy taken of the body of this 
young man? 

Mr. Anderson. I do not remember, but the parents, I'm pretty 
sure the way they talked, would not allow that, because the 
thinking of the Indians is that the body shouldn't be bothered, 
and it would be pretty hard to convince the parents, Indian 
parents, to have an autopsy. 

Mr. Powell. I'm sorry. What was the last thing you said 
about the autopsy again ? 

Mr. Anderson. The thinking of the Indians, I said. 

Mr. Powell. Often autopsies are necessary, and I believe that 
we will hear testimony later that an autopsy was in fact taken. 

Was there another case, similar, comparable case? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes, there's another young girl that was taken 
there to the local hospital several times. All she was given was 
some pills. And then later on a shot. And the doctor was notified 
that the girl got worse after she started receiving shots. And 
for 4 days she was getting shots. The mother — 

Mr. Powell. What were her complaints when she went to 
the hospital ? 

Mr. Anderson. Well, she was a 6-month-old girl so it was 
pretty hard to tell, you know. 

Mr. Powell. I see. 

Mr. Anderson. So anyway — 

Mr. Powell. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Anderson. The mother was saying that the baby got 
worse after — when she started receiving shots. So the doctor 
said at the hospital that, "Well, she's just complaining about 
the little diarrhea," some diarrhea. 

So the fourth day she was taken up to an outside hospital. By 
that I mean off the reservation, non-Indian hospital. 

Mr. Powell. Private hospital? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes, private hospital. And there immediately 
the doctor said, "That girl is very, very sick." So immediately 
they took her blood test and they found out that she was allergic 
to the penicillin shots. She had a bad diarrhea and had pneu- 
monia — three altogether. 

Mr. Powell. What happened to the child? What did they 
say would have happened to the child had she not been — 

Mr. Anderson. The child would have died shortly after. But 
she made it all right. The medicine was purchased and a shot — 


not a shot, but a medicine — and had appointments from there 
on. And she made it. 

Mr. Powell. Now, the parents of this child, because they had 
sufficient funds, were able to go to a private hospital ? 
Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. But in case of most Indians they would not have 
had the money to do this? Is that correct? 

Mr. Anderson. That's what I maintain. Few people do this. 
And a good majority of the Indian people don't have any choice. 

Mr. Powell. Is there anything the tribal government can do to 
remedy or improve the situation of the Indian Health Service? 
What kind of control or authority do you have? 

Mr. Anderson. Well, we go to the health committee and also 
to the tribal council and try to talk through these people to 
public health people, but it seems like we're up against a brick 
wall. And their main excuse is that they are understaffed and 
lack funding. This is the thing. And when the man tells us that, 
it's pretty hard — 

Mr. Powell. Certainly they need more funding. 

Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. I'm sure that is one of the things we are going to 
be looking into. Do you have any other suggestions? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. We have — Suggestion you said? No, I 
don't have any suggestions at this time. 

Mr. Powell. One of our staff members wants to know are you 
informed of the case of the 8-year-old daughter of Felix Clay 
who was sent home from the White River Hospital with a tem- 
perature of 103 and history of epilepsy? 

Mr. Anderson. I have heard — 

Mr. Powell. Later she died in intensive care at Good Sa- 
maritan Hospital in Phoenix. Are you familiar with that? 

Mr. Anderson. I'm not familiar with that but I — 

Mr. Powell. This is the kind of thing you hear? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. There's numerous cases like that. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Anderson, approximately what is the em- 
ployment rate on your reservation — the unemployment rate, 
rather, on your reservation ? 

Mr. Anderson. At least 50 percent. 

Mr. Powell. Fifty percent? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. In excess of 50 percent? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. What sources of employment are there for mem- 
bers of your tribe, Mr. Anderson? What sources of employment 
are there? 

Mr. Anderson. We have timber resources, cattle industry. 


Mr. Powell. Did your tribe at one time have a contract with 
the Southwest Lumber Company? 
Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. What was your experience under that contract? 
Mr. Anderson. We had contracts, several in the past, with 
the Southwest Forest Industry, and the one particular contract 
that was written up in 1948, I believe it was — it's a 25-year 
contract — and in that contract it is written up where the 
stumpage price was kept. 

So recently — or not recently — several years ago — where the 
company was paying far less for stumpage, and at our tribal- 
owned sawmill we were paying about twice as much — 

Mr. Powell. You entered into a contract with the Southwest 
Lumber Company in about 1948 — 
Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. — and the price for stumps was $7 at that time? 
Mr. Anderson. Something like that. 

Mr. Powell. And during the course of that contract the cost 
of stumps went up but there was no provision in the contract to 
take care of that? 
Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. Meanwhile, your own tribally-owned lumber 
company was paying much, much more? 
Mr. Anderson. Right. 
Mr. Powell. $25? $47? 
Mr. Anderson. Yes. 
Mr. Powell. Eight times more? 
Mr. Anderson. Right. 
Mr. Powell. Then what happened? 

Mr. Anderson. Then the contract — Good thing it terminated, 

Mr. Powell. Did the Bureau provide you with any assistance 
in making a clause that would take into account the increase in 
stumps? What was their role? 
Mr. Anderson. Their role wasn't much as far as I'm concerned. 
Mr. Powell. Aren't they in their technical assistance obliga- 
tion to you — Shouldn't they advise you as to what kind of leases 
you should enter into and advise you about cost of material in- 
crease provisions ? 
Mr. Anderson. Right. But — 
Mr. Powell. That wasn't done in this case? 
Mr. Anderson. I don't believe that was done, because it was 
obvious the way the contract was written. 

Mr. Powell. And for that reason you refused to renegotiate a 
contract with that company? Is that correct? 
Mr. Anderson. Right. And also we built our own sawmill. 


That was one of the main factors that we decided to do, to 
process the timber, our staff. 

Mr. Powell. How is your sawmill doing? Okay? 

Mr. Anderson. Our sawmill started in 1963, and three man- 
agers had been fired at the start, and with all the Bureau tech- 
nical help they didn't do much, because the record shows that we 
went way, way down in the hole. 

Mr. Powell. Because the Bureau did not provide you assist- 

Mr. Anderson. Yes, even though they were supervising. 

Mr. Powell. You say they had three managers fired — did 
you say? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes, three different managers had been fired. 
But still we were going down. 

Mr. Powell. Okay. 

Mr. Anderson. So the council got together, and they wanted 
to hire their own man, a private lumberman, and he's non- 
Indian. They hired him, and immediately he went to work — 

Mr. Powell. The tribe hired him? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. The tribe, yes. And then immediately the 
tribe recovered from financial losses. 

Mr. Powell. In other words, without having the involvement 
of the Bureau you were able to do better? 

Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Mr. Powell. I see. During the tenure of this contract with 
Southwestern Lumber Company, was that company under any 
obligation to provide employment opportunities for tribal mem- 
bers ? 

Mr. Anderson. Right. I'm pretty sure it was written in their 
contract to have the Apaches on the reservation employed. 

Mr. Powell. Did they live up to that obligation? More or less? 

Mr. Anderson. I don't believe so, because as an example, when 
this 25-year contract expired, just prior to that, they had around 
seven Apaches employed, and during that termination, expiration 
date coming up they immediately hired 30, somewhere in the 
neighborhood of 30, because they know that they will have to 
negotiate with the tribes. 

Mr. Powell. What justification did they give for not hiring 
Indians — the Southwest Lumber Company. What reason did they 
give? What excuse did they give for not hiring Apache members? 
Did they talk in terms of qualifications? 

Mr. Anderson. Well, during my time in office we didn't ne- 
gotiate with them. This was several years ago. But I'm pretty 
sure they would say the Apaches do not have the skills that are 
required. I'm pretty sure this would be their words. 

Mr. Powell. In view of the experience of your tribally- 
owned lumber company, would you say that the BIA experts 


unnecessarily try to control tribal management to the detriment 
of the tribe's interest? Is that — 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. In your opinion, does the tribe's experience with 
its lumber operations prove that private industry is wrong in 
its assertions that no qualified Indians are available to fill the 
higher paid positions in lumbering? 

Mr. Anderson. Would you repeat that? 

Mr. Powell. In view of your tribe's experience with your own 
tribally-owned lumber company, would you say that private 
companies are wrong when they say that there are no qualified 
Indians they can find for the better paying positions in lumber- 

Mr. Anderson. Right. We have done it, and we have proven 
that the Indians on the reservation, if they are given a chance, 
can prove that they can learn. 

Mr. Powell. With respect to private construction contractors 
operating under BIA contracts, is it your view that Indians 
have been adequately employed by such private contractors? 

Mr. Anderson. No. Again, we come against the union con- 
tract similar to San Carlos. 

Mr. Powell. Do you feel that the BIA makes any efforts to 
review contractors and put pressure on them to improve their 
hiring and promotion policies for Indians? Does the BIA get 
involved with respect to what private contractors are doing? 

Mr. Anderson. I don't believe so, because not too long ago we 
had a private contract to build a road, a community road, 
about 12 miles, and not a single Apache worked on that project. 

Mr. Powell. Have you told the Bureau about some of these 
problems ? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. What has been their response? 

Mr. Anderson. Their response is like the Public Health Service 
— not enough funding. 

Mr. Powell. Not enough funding? 

Mr. Anderson. Not enough funding. 

Mr. Powell. I have no further questions, Madam Chairman. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Anderson, is it correct that 
perhaps the Bureau may be administering some contracts that 
may be HUD contracts or other agency contracts? 

Mr. Anderson. Yes. We had that with the Bureau here not 
too long ago, but now we are — the tribes are — doing the thing 
themselves. We have a tribal housing authority, and it all con- 
sists of Indian people on the reservation. 

Commissioner Freeman. And in those cases, then, the tribe 
would be contracting and negotiating directly with the Depart- 
ment of Housing and Urban Development? 


Mr. Anderson. Right. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. I have no questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. Mr. Anderson, if the tribe can carry on and 
execute contracts with HUD for housing and with whomever 
for the exploitation of your own natural resources, can you not 
do the same thing for health services? 

Mr. Anderson. I'm pretty sure we can do that. 

Mr. Buggs. What would happen if the tribe had all of those 
doctors and the hospital staff reporting to the tribe for their 
stewardship rather than to somebody in Washington or to a 
regional office? 

Mr. Anderson. I think this type of arrangement would be 
much, much better. 

Mr. Buggs. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. You're ex- 

This hearing will be in recess until 3:10. 

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 

Commissioner Freeman. Will the hearing come to order? 

We would like to call as our next witnesses Dr. Charles Mc- 
Cammon, Director, Phoenix Area Indian Health Service, and Dr. 
James Erickson, Service Unit Director, Phoenix Indiar Medical 

Will you remain standing? 

(Whereupon, Dr. Charles McCammon and Dr. James Erickson 
were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 




Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Would you each please state your name and ad- 
dress and occupation for the record ? 

DR. McCammon. Dr. Charles S. McCammon, 5313 East Os- 
born Road, Phoenix, Area Director, Phoenix Area Indian Health 

Dr. Erickson. James H. Erickson, M.D., 4808 North 34th 
Place, Phoenix, Director of the Phoenix Indian Medical Center 
and Phoenix Service Unit. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, as area director you have 
overall supervisory responsibility for the medical services which 
are obtained at the Indian Health Service in this area? Is that 

Dr. McCammon. That's correct. 


Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, the material, the data compiled 
in connection with our demographic staff paper showing the situ- 
ation in New Mexico and Arizona indicates that although Amer- 
ican Indians have one of the highest birth rates of any racial 
group, the life expectancy of Indians is well below that of other 
Americans. Is this so in the Southwest? 

Dr. McCammon. That is very definitely so. 

Mr. Powell. Would you please explain why this is so? 

Dr. McCammon. Well, first of all, the infant death rate the 
first year of life is definitely much higher, almost twice as high 
as the nation as a whole. However, the death rate of Indian 
infants during the first month of life is comparable to that of 
the rest of the country, and during the first week of life is 
better in many places and is better than the Southwest States. 

Now, this is due to the fact that most all the Indian babies 
are born in a hospital, that there is a hospital birth. The high 
infant death rate occurs after the child goes home into an in- 
adequate house, in very severe climates, and in overcrowding, 
and in the families that are often handicapped for lack of food 
for proper nourishment. 

So that it is the harsh environment and the socioeconomic 
conditions of the family that put that newborn at high risk, so 
that the infant deaths from the enteric diseases, the diarrheas 
and dysenteries and pneumonia are related very directly to the 

Mr. Powell. Are there any steps that the Indian Health Serv- 
ice can take to deal with this problem? 

For example, we have heard it said that the Indian Health Serv- 
ice focuses more on curative and doesn't pay enough attention 
to preventive medicine. 

Dr. McCammon. Well, certainly the volume of our effort or 
the volume of our workload is the people who are acutely ill. 
There is a great deal of work done in preventive health, and I 
think the preventive health effort which is probably having 
the greatest long-range impact on the health of people like the 
new Indian infant is in sanitation of Indian homes, in water and 
waste disposal. 

We started this program 10 or 15 years ago. However, it has 
been enhanced by the fact of the program of HUD and the 
Bureau of Indian Affairs home improvement program and other 
housing programs for the tribes, so you can find new, improved, 
homes with improved water supply and along with the general 
improvement in economy, and on many of the reservations you 
are seeing a marked change in health conditions. 

I think we do have a preventive health program of home 
visiting of professional nurses, public health nurses, health edu- 
cation program, and the program that is noticed in the Indian 


Health Service which you have probably heard about is a tribal 
program, funding through a contract with the Indian Health Serv- 
ice, and that is the community health representatives. 

And these people are involved in both health education repre- 
senting their people and their problems to us and trying to ex- 
plain the modern medicine practices to their families to assist 
them to get into a hospital or to a clinic and to act as a spokes- 
man for them in many cases if they have to go off reservation 
to a contract physician or hospital. 

Mr. Powell. Are there enough financial resources being de- 
voted to this problem? Each year that there's insufficient 
funds, more and more Indians are not going to have life ex- 
pectancy comparable to other Americans, and more and more 
Indian children are going to be dying during the first year of 
life. Are there adequate resources being provided ? 

Dr. McCammon. No, there definitely isn't. I think you have 
heard reference from representatives from two reservations 
who spoke about the staffing of their hospitals. Very recently 
we were asked to do a staffing table for GAO that was doing a 
preliminary to a survey for a general audit of our operation. 
And using hospital staffing criteria as presented by the Amer- 
ican Hospital Association, overall, we were deficient around 35 
percent in the staffing of our hospitals. 

Now, the particular hospital that Mr. Anderson was talking 
about has around, a little over, 60 people, and using that criteria, 
they needed over 80 more people to come up to comparable — 
Mr. Powell. They had less than half? 

Dr. McCammon. Less than half of the people to be comparable 
to community standards in staffing the hospital. 

Mr. Powell. You make requests for funds, don't you? 
Dr. McCammon. We place the requests for funds, and these 
are also endorsed and supported by our area health board. 

Mr. Powell. Well, what kind of requests for funds have you 
been making say during the last 3 or 4 years? Can we have 
those requests — make them a part of the record ? 
Dr. McCammon. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Have you been requesting more funds? 
Dr. McCammon. What we have been doing is program pack- 
ages, one related specifically for staffing for quality of care which 
indicates the basic minimum increases that we need, and the 
various program elements have been identified in these program 
packages in the budgets that we submit to Washington. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, another problem continually 
brought to the attention of Commission staff involves mental 
health conditions, evidenced by high suicide rates and alcohol- 
ism rates. How would you assess this problem in Arizona? And 
what is the Indian Health Service doing to overcome it? 


Dr. McCammon. Well, this, of course, is the most active new 
program in Indian health. I think the exciting thing about the 
alcohol program is that all the tribes in this area have an alcohol 
program that they are managing themselves through other than 
Indian Health funds. 

There are some — in some cases a supplemental contract from 
the Indian Health Service. 

So the tribal people themselves have identified alcohol, and 
they have identified it as a health problem, and so that our 
mental health people are working with them on this. 

Now, in all of our — Three service units do not have profes- 
sional mental health workers. They all have either professional 
workers or mental health technicians who have received special- 
ized training, and they are working with the rest of the Indian 
Health Service staff as well as with the tribal programs and 
community health representatives and the alcohol program in 
attacking these problems. 

Suicide is a real problem on some of the reservations, and our 
people tell us that this is undoubtedly due to people caught in 
transition between one culture and another feeling that they 
have lost one world and they don't belong or aren't accepted in 
the other. 

Sometimes, the outsider who might visit some of these reser- 
vations that have a very high suicide rate, would think that 
that reservation had a lot going for it. You'd see more new 
housing. You'd see small businesses and job opportunities. And 
yet when you look at a problem like suicide it would be four 
and five times the national average. 

So that this is the best reason that I have heard, and it 
is one that generally that the tribal leaders themselves present 
as part of the reason for high suicides — the frustrations of mak- 
ing a transition and trying to compete in the dominant society. 

Mr. Powell. You mentioned that you didn't have enough 
professional mental health workers. Have you made requests 
specifically for funds to fill slots so that you'd have an adequate 
number of professional mental health workers? 

Dr. McCammon. Yes. That is in our program plan. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, what to the best of your 
knowledge is the State doing to overcome some of these prob- 
lems of alcoholism and suicide? 

Dr. McCammon. At least in three reservation areas where 
there are State mental health programs, their staffs have been 
working with our staff and with the tribal groups. Indians are 
accepted in the mental health clinics in those areas, and then, 
in addition, we have been able to supplement the mental health 
clinics by using the State and local staff under supplemental con- 


tracts from us to come into the reservation and to conduct com- 
munity mental health clinics. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, what is the nature of the Indian 
Health Service responsibility to serve the health needs of urban 
American Indians? Does the responsibility differ depending on the 
status or residence of the Indians? 

Dr. McCammon. Well, if I may, I think we have had several 
terms and words expressed here — 
Mr. Powell. Please clarify the record. 
Dr. McCammon. — and I'd like to try to clarify it. 
I'd like for us in the discussion to disregard "on or near reser- 
vation" because I think philosophically, and the way our policy 
is set up in the Indian Health Service, we talk about eligible 
Indians and not geographic locations of where they — 
Mr. Powell. You talk about what kind of Indians? 
Dr. McCammon. We talk about eligible Indians. 
Mr. Powell. Eligible Indians? 

Dr. McCammon. Eligible Indians. And not necessarily where 
they live — until we get down to the gruesome, embarrassing 
bind of setting priorities. And then we do give preference to 
reservation Indians because — and this is what I'd like to correct 
for the record — I do not think it is the intent of Congress to 
exclude urban Indians. I think our interpretation is the intent 
of Congress to provide special services to reservation Indians. 
Mr. Powell. Regardless of where they live? 
Dr. McCammon. That's true. 

Mr. Powell. But then your categorization, your priority, turns 
not on eligibility but on funding? 
Dr. McCammon. That's correct. 

Now, there was a period in our old Indian hospital here in 
Phoenix when there was no obstetrical service. This was all 
under contract with one of the community hospitals. The hospital 
was too small, not desirable for obstetrical service. So this 
went on contract. 

And during that period of time the residents in Phoenix, the 
Indian people who lived off reservation, were excluded from 
those services because they were considered out of priority 
and the money was not available. 

That did not exclude them from going to Sacaton, which was 
40 miles from here, to receive hospital services for delivery at 
the Indian Health Service hospital. 

So that there is in the priority basis a distinction made be- 
tween people who reside on reservation and the people who re- 
side off reservation — not as far as eligibility, if they are a mem- 
ber of one of the tribes, bands or groups that still have a special 
Federal relationship. 

Mr. Powell. In view of the fact that this health care, like 


other items brought up by the Government, are items which the 
Government is obliged to provide under treaty and under legis- 
lation, is that carrying out the responsibility of the Federal 
Government as it should be? 

Dr. McCammon. You know, one of the frustrating things I 
think to a health professional is trying to understand the dis- 
cretionary authority of the Federal Government in Indian serv- 

I think if one looks at treaties — I don't want to get in debate 
on treaty rights and what not — I don't think treaty rights 
really spelled out what was due individuals for health. I think 
it's all based on the intent of Congress that over the years as 
the program evolved — of what Congress has wanted to do 
for Indian people and special services that have been identified. 

It's an entirely different picture now of what Congress is iden- 
tifying than when I came in the program in 1948. 

Mr. Powell. It has been testified that to some extent Indians 
are not freely admitted to municipal and county hospitals. What 
is your view as to the responsibility of these municipal hospitals 
to provide services to Indians, whether they be on or off the 
reservation, who come to seek such service? 

Dr. McCammon. Well, not having any specific examples that 
I know for a personal fact, I prefer not to make a statement 
on it. I have heard evidence, I have heard statements made — 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, I think you misunderstand my 
question. I'm not asking you to give any information on facts. 
I'm just asking you in principle. 

Assuming that there are Indians living in the urban areas, 
as there are, who go to municipal hospitals to seek service, and 
assuming further that on occasion these municipal hospitals deny 
them that service, are they conforming with their obligations 
to residents in that area who are Indians? 

Dr. McCammon. Certainly not, as long as the Indian is simi- 
larly circumstanced to anyone else that is eligible to receive 
care there. They have no legal right in my mind to deny services. 

Mr. Powell. What would you say should be the solution to 
that kind of problem where municipal hospitals do not treat 
Indians on the same basis as other similarly situated non-Indian 
citizens who live in that area? 

Dr. McCammon. Well, I think the Indian people with proper 
spokesmen and with the Indian Health Service playing an advo- 
cacy role — and this was one in this county 10 or 12 years 
ago — should pursue this, and, if necessary, even pursue it through 
the legal counsel of the Department of HEW. 

I think, you know, we have had a real major change in situ- 
ation with the opening of our new Phoenix Indian Medical 


Center here. And as has been already presented, the majority of 
Indian people seem to want to go to an Indian hospital. 

Now, whether the individual Indians who have been trans- 
ferred from one of the hospitals or the county hospitals or 
public hospitals here, who have been transferred to the Phoenix 
Indian Medical Center, have been transferred against their will 
I do not know. 

But in public meetings like this the Indian people have told us 
they want to go. 

So that there has undoubtedly been a dropoff on utilization of 
county hospital since the opening of the new Phoenix Indian 
Medical Center, which has not helped our situation particu- 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, the Commission has been sup- 
plied with information indicating that although Indians provide 
a significant percentage of the overall employment makeup of 
the Indian Health Service, that by and large they are concen- 
trated in lower-level positions. For instance, in Arizona, about 
80 percent of all Indian Health Service employees who are GS 
level are GS-1 through GS-4, while only 13 percent of the GS-9 
through GS-11 level are Indian. How do you account for this 
situation, particularly in light of the fact that, as I understand 
it, you operate under the Indian preference clause which gives 
preference to qualified Indians in both initial hiring and pro- 
motion. Isn't that true? 

Dr. McGammon. That's correct. 

Mr. Powell. How do you account for the relative dearth of 
Indians — 

Dr. McCammon. There are two major reasons, and I do have 
current — the past 3 months — employment records by grade classi- 
fication, by sex and race, and I'll be happy to submit those for 
the record. 

Mr. Powell. Please do. 

(See Exhibit No. 5 for the information mentioned.) 

Dr. McCammon. First of all, in the lower grade categories, 
where a technical skill is not required, we rarely, if ever, even 
consider a non-Indian. In other words, on the reservation where 
a professional or a technical skill is not required, we just don't 
even consider anyone but Indians, because these are local hires. 

We move in, then, to the technical and the professional cate- 
gory, and we do not have a manpower pool of Indian employees 
in the health professions. I think the Indian people themselves, 
their tribal leaders, have stated a strong desire to see their young 
people get educational opportunities and to go into the health 

You had reference to the graduate school for Indians. There's 
actually two schools, University of California at Berkeley and 


the University of Oklahoma, that have a graduate program for 
Indians to give them graduate-level training in health manage- 
ment and instruction. 

We have an interesting situation in the management level. It's 
no excuse. I mean we're not happy with the percentage of Indian 
employees we have in our operation. But when we get into the 
management level area, there's a very, very highly competitive 
field for Indian managers, and between the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs and Indian Health Service, the Indian organizations, other 
groups — these young Indian managers are greatly in demand. 

We do have in our office four young Indians in career develop- 
ment, as managers. But this is a — The real shortage — The 
health professionals and the manager, the managerial level, are 
the real shortage category that we have in Indians. 

Mr. Powell. Well, have you been in touch with your superiors 
in the Indian Health Service or your counterparts in the BIA to 
the end that steps should be taken to see to it that educational 
opportunities will be provided to Indians, that there will be a 
pipeline which eventually will begin to turn out Indians who 
will be able to fill these positions of technical, medical, and 
managerial positions ? 

Dr. McCammon. Yes, we have. Actually, we have set up one 
program of our own here in Phoenix, and that is taking Indian 
licensed practical nurses while they are employed and working 
in the Phoenix Indian Medical Center, to support them in a 
scholarship program at one of the community colleges so that 
they can get an R.N. degree at the end of 2 years. And, of 
course, the scholarship program applying within the whole Indian 
Health Service is very closely coordinated. 

And we have recently had contact with the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs. I don't think that we have had as much day-to-day con- 
tact with the Bureau of Indian Affairs' scholarship program as 
is desirable. Where we usually get involved is when we have 
identified or an Indian youth has been identified to us that needs 
assistance, and then we try to provide him some help and knowl- 
edge of places to go. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, turning now to some of the 
earlier testimony, you heard the testimony regarding the young 
Indian youth who had been swimming and who had sought 
medical attention at one of the health facilities for which you 
have supervisory responsibility. There was another instance of 
a young child being brought to a facility and not being treated, 
given penicillin shots, when according to a subsequent investiga- 
tion that was contraindicated, and where the doctors said that 
had they not gone to other than Indian Health Service doctors in 
this instance the child would have died. 

Would you care to comment on any of that ? 


Dr. McCammon. Only to the degree that with the workload 
pressures in our hospitals where a doctor may have only 1 min- 
ute per patient to get through the day, he's not going to do the 
type of examination that he needs. 

Mr. Powell. One minute per patient ? 

Dr. McCammon. In some cases the workload in the day's time 
for a physician to get through the day will have 1 minute, 
2 minutes, 3 minutes, never any desirable time to — 

Mr. Powell. Don't you have sufficient staff that by the time 
that a doctor sees a patient that patient has been worked up by 
regular R.N.'s and — 

Dr. McCammon. We have people in situations that are screen- 
ing people trying to identify the ones who are acutely ill, but we 
do not have a pre-examination of the type that you're talking 
about where we do have a program of training community 
health medics, physician assistants, who will be doing that. We 
have other physician extenders trying to save the time of our 
physicians who are not diagnosing but are taking the chronic 
patients and following them, the ones that need medication. 

Mr. Powell. Let me ask you a question then. In the Indian 
Health Service, what level of medicine does it practice? What 
quality of medicine does it practice? Is it an emergency facility 
which can only handle emergency cases and where there are 
cases which require more than that do you refer it to private 
hospitals for long-term care? Or — 

Dr. McCammon. I think for the most part in the majority of 
our facilities our physicians are doing episodic care. Because of 
the workload and pressures and beds available, they are exam- 
ining for the current presenting illness and treating that and 
moving on to the next, and there is not in most places time for 
a comprehensive patient workup. 

Mr. Powell. Can they provide adequate medical service if 
they focus on the episodic symptom and don't at least identify 
problems which require further attention and then refer them to 
those hospitals which have contract care and which can deal 
with that problem ? 

Dr. McCammon. Well, all of the major problems that are 
— major problems for diagnosis or major problem for care — 
we do have funds for referral of those to contract facilities. 

Mr. Powell. But are you exercising the things necessary to 
see to it that Indians who come to you and who need that — 

Dr. McCammon. Well, in the example of White River Hospital 
in the case that was discussed this afternoon, we average about 
40 to 50 patients moved from there to Phoenix by air each 
week, so that — 

Mr. Powell. Phoenix is where the contract care facilities 


Dr. McCammon. This is the metropolitan — this is the medical 
center area. And I say Phoenix. That does not necessarily mean 
that Phoenix Indian Medical Center. It may be the Phoenix Med- 
ical Center for routine surgery. It may be to St. Joseph's Hos- 
pital for neurosurgical workup or one of the other hospitals that 
have a highly-specialized service that we do not have in our 
medical center. And there is a routine transportation setup be- 
tween all of our reservations and Phoenix. 

Mr. Powell. In New Mexico, in talking with your counter- 
part in the Albuquerque area, we heard testimony regarding a 
so-called elective procedure. That is to say, if the patient needed 
surgery for glaucoma or a hernia but it wasn't absolutely re- 
quired that moment or that week or that month or that year, 
that that patient's need was deferred and that conceivably that 
need could be deferred over a number of years and the patient 
could conceivably become very chronically ill and die and the 
patient would never be served. 

Your counterpart said that he didn't consider that good med- 
ical practice and it was only because of funding and he wouldn't 
engage in that if he could avoid it. 

Do you have a similar — Do you operate under similar con- 
straints here ? 

Dr. McCammon. We do, but I think for the most part, having 
our own medical center here in Phoenix, that we do not have a 
significant backlog of elective surgery. 

We do have a backlog of elective procedures like orthodontic 
care for correction of teeth and mouth problems, for correc- 
tions, elective surgery, for cosmetic effect. But for the most part 
needed surgical procedures are generally taken care of without 
any great problems. I mean there may be a backlog, a delay 
from a week to a month to the next quarter, but within a 
year's time I think we have done very well on those major 
medical problems. 

Mr. Powell. You don't have that problem here, but — 

Dr. McCammon. Our delay is — in priorities is — in dental 
care and cosmetic and maybe some major corrective orthopedic 
type work that doesn't fall within the crippled children's pro- 

Do you know of any, Jim ? 

Dr. Erickson. I don't. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. Erickson, what are the principal problems — 
We understand that you are — What again ? 

Dr. Erickson. Director of the Indian Medical Center here in 

Mr. Powell. What are the principal problems facing Indian 
Medical Center? 

Dr. Erickson. I think if I had to list the two principal prob- 


lems that face us it's those that Dr. McCammon and others have 
already stated, and that's the combination of staffing and fund- 
ing which of course go hand in hand. 

I think when the Indian Medical Center was programmed 
and built, nobody ever dreamed of the growth that we would 
see. And our outpatient load has indeed more than doubled 
since we moved from the old campus into the new medical cen- 
ter without the concomitant rise in staff to handle that load, 
although we are still handling the load, and I'm amazed that the 
boys do as well as they do. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. Erickson, we have heard several complaints 
both in our testimony and earlier investigation regarding the 
Phoenix Indian Medical Center. These include insensitivity on the 
part of staff, long waiting periods, lack of Indian confidence in 
the doctors because of the doctors' inexperience, particularly 
because of doctor turnover, and inadequate promotion of Indian 
employees. How would you respond to these complaints ? 

Dr. Erickson. Well, let me answer first of all the insensitivity 
situation. I think this certainly has some cultural bearing, and 
I have been in this situation before, having been an adviser in 
a foreign country. 

I think whenever you take a predominantly metropolitanized 
young individual and give him professional training within a 
city for anywhere from 8 to 12 to 14 years and then suddenly 
he comes face to face with a cultural background with which he 
is not familiar at all, you're going to have some communica- 
tions problems. 

I think that sometimes the individual receiving services — and 
this is not simply true in the Indian community — it may well 
be true in an Anglo-to-Anglo interface situation — where the 
physician may appear brusque because he is busy and he does 
have the next patient to get to if he's going to clear out that 
waiting room at the end of the day, so patients will have to wait 
at least as little time as possible. 

He is going to appear to some, indeed many, as being too 
curt, not giving them time enough, and so forth and so on. 

I have seen this in the private sector and in military medi- 
cine and now in the Public Health Service. 

Mr. Powell. Do you think that orientation of professional 
staff about these cultural problems, identify what they are and 
education from the point of view of Indian — For example, we 
heard testimony in New Mexico that Indians felt that if you 
just asked them questions and diagnosed on the basis of oral 
discussion without touching them, physically touching the parts, 
that you weren't interested. 

I mean, shouldn't that communication gap be tried to be 
reached by talking to doctors on the one hand about cultural 


problems and talking to Indians on the other hand about what 
the requirements are ? Is that being done at all ? 

Dr. Erickson. That's being done. We have an orientation pro- 
gram for all new staff and particularly for new medical officers 
that lasts approximately the first 6 to 8 weeks of their service 
at the medical center, in which we go into many staff and 
policy situations, and along with that Indian culture. 

I think one can only say that, you know, you can talk about 
this as much as you want to, but if you're not embroiled in it 
for a long time it really won't rub off that much. 

I think that one can be in any different culture than his own 
for a long time before he really becomes fully aware of what 
the other people are saying to him. And, of course, we have 
the same problem at least for some of our staff that the field hos- 
pitals have in terms of relatively rapid turnover approximately 
every 2 years of the younger commissioned officer. 

Mr. Powell. In this connection, is there any machinery at 
your hospital for Indian input, policy-making, a group that would 
be sensitive to these problems and stay on top of them and see 
that they are being met ? 

Dr. Erickson. Yes, we do. We do have at our hospital an 
Indian advisory board whose problem it is to represent the Indian 
desires and interest to us, to help us in our priority-setting, 
help us develop long-range program plans for our health pro- 
grams, and also interpreting the Indian Health Service policies 
and procedures to the various people. 

Now, we are in a little different situation here in Phoenix, in 
that we are not on a reservation with just one tribe. Probably 
somebody from every tribe in the United States probably is 
represented in Phoenix. But our major geographic responsibility 
is for the tribal group surrounding the city as well as those 
within the city, and we do have a tribal advisory board whose 
members are chosen from the reservations which we are re- 
sponsible for, as well as the Indians living within the metro- 
politan area off the reservation. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. McCammon, we have heard similar com- 
plaints — Just as we have heard complaints about the Phoenix 
Indian Medical Center, we have heard similar complaints about 
the facilities in the Phoenix area as a whole. Would you care 
to respond to them ? The long waiting, the insensitivity ? 

Dr. McCammon. Yes, I'd like to. I can't very well avoid or 
pass up the opportunity to stick in a personal bias, totally sub- 
jective, that I have towards hospitals. That is, not just our 
hospitals but it's all hospitals. There seems to be an innate 
tendency to operate for convenience of the staff and not for the 
patient. And this is something that we try to cover in our orien- 
tation. In the reservation orientation of the new staff, the 


Indian council, the board or the health committee is asked to 
conduct part of that orientation, to also take the people into the 
field and see the field, the homes, visit people in the homes. 

In the past 2 years we, becoming rather discouraged on get- 
ting additional funds for additional people, have been taking a 
very close and hard look at the efficiency of our operation to 
see if we can do better with what we have. And without people, 
with some adjustments through studies of our outpatient de- 
partment, we have come to realize that if we can come up with 
two examining rooms for each physician, if we can get a third 
of the people to participate in an appointment system, we can 
cut the waiting time to one-third or even one-fourth of what 
it was in the past by taking a look at our method of operation, 
even though we may not give any more time to that patient 
with that physician. There aren't any more physicians to go 
around, but we can cut down that patient's time in the waiting 
room by a more efficient and effective way of operating. 

Mr. Powell. What about this question of control? What 
should be the proper relationship between the Indian Health 
Service on the one hand and tribal governments on the other? 
What should be the role of the Indian health advisory board? 

Dr. McCammon. Well, in this area — and I think our area 
board is one of the oldest and most effective of all — we have 
taken the approach that we are working at a board of directors' 

Now, on a reservation the authority, the total authority, for 
management of civil government and operation on the reserva- 
tion is the tribe, and we are only charged by Congress to 
deliver health service, to conserve the health of the Indian peo- 
ple, to operate and manage health facilities. The authority for 
writing health codes and whatnot is in the tribe. So we have 
an ideal situation and a need for a partnership approach in 
planning and managing the health program. 

Now, we have three tribes that currently are awaiting fund- 
ing for an opportunity to set up their own tribal health author- 
ity and their own health departments. In this area something 
in excess of $3 million of funds are managed by tribes in 
health-related programs, people that are working in health-re- 
lated programs, that are totally under tribal management, and 
I think this is the logical step for a tribe to take — first to 
start managing a community health program and eventually be 
prepared to say, "We'd like to take over and manage the pro- 

This is the objective in the Indian Health Service. There is not 
a timetable on it. It's the objective to be paced to the desires of 
the individual Indian tribe. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 


Commissioner Freeman. Dr. McCammon, how many health 
facilities are under your supervision ? 

Dr. McCammon. We have nine hospitals and two health cen- 
ters, and I really can't give you the exact number of itinerant 
health stations which are not manned on a permanent basis. 

Commissioner Freeman. Would you tell us what is the total 
number of employees ? 

Dr. McCammon. It's slightly over 1,000. It's around — our 
ceiling, which of course for the normal turnover of people we 
have — is 1,160 people. Around 780 of those are working in the 
hospitals. The others are working in the community health pro- 
gram and the construction of sanitary facilities or health edu- 
cation, in mental health, and this sort of program operation. 

We do have something over 100 people in our area office. 
Now, the area office does the housekeeping functions for the 
support of the hospitals, the personnel processing, procurement, 
classification, the procurement contracting for supplies, the man- 
agement of financial accounts, and then the overall professional 
direction of the program. 

Commissioner Freeman. And you are the individual who is 
ultimately responsible for the supervision of these facilities? 

Dr. McCammon. That is correct. 

Commissioner Freeman. Is it correct that the Public Health 
provides housing for its staff employees ? 

Dr. McCammon. We have a limited number of houses on the 
more isolated reservations. In communities like Phoenix, we do 
not have any housing, of course. But we do have quarters, a 
limited number, within the reservation communities. 

Commissioner Freeman. What is the total number of housing 
units that would be available for the employees? 

Dr. McCammon. I do not have that figure, but if you'd like I'll 
be happy to submit it for the record. 

Commissioner Freeman. Yes, I would like it. We would need 
to have that information. But in addition to that, perhaps you 
would also give answers to the following questions: 

The classification of the employee who is housed by the Public 
Health Service under the housing provided by the Public Health 

The number of such employees who receive such housing who 
are Indian, and the number that are not. 

And whether or not the housing that is provided depends 
upon the job. What I mean by this is physicians, etc. 

Do you understand what I'm talking about? 

Dr. McCammon. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Could you supply that for us? 

Dr. McCammon. Yes, I can. 

(See Exhibit No. 6 for the information requested.) 


Commissioner Freeman. In addition, we would be interested 
to know whether in a situation where you have described such 
a great need for physicians you are using the paraprofessionals 
such as physician's assistants. Are you ? 

Dr. McCammon. Yes. Of course, one of the two schools for 
training the community health medics is here in Phoenix at 
the Phoenix Indian Medical Center. And this is the second class 
that's in training there. We have three such students who are 
out in their second year as preceptors in this area. We have 
one other physician's assistant employed who was trained out- 
side the Indian Health Service. 

In addition, we have two Indian nurses, senior nurses, who 
have had additional training as pediatric nurse practitioners, 
and they are also acting as physician extenders. And we are, in 
addition, training many of our pharmacists to act as physician 
extenders in managing some of the chronic patients who are 
strictly on medication. 

Commissioner Freeman. Which of these classifications are 

Dr. McCammon. The pediatric nurse practitioners and the 
community health medics are Indians. 

Commissioner Freeman. Is there any reason why Indians 
could not be trained to conform to the other classifications ? 

Dr. McCammon. Well, in the pediatric nurse practitioner we 
have deliberately selected senior Indian nurses to be trained for 
this. We really would not exclude a highly-qualified non-Indian 
if an Indian tribe supported and endorsed that individual for 
entering into the community health medic training. But we have 
given preference, and we have sought, and the first two classes 
have been, all Indian. 

I understand that in recruiting — in the announcements that 
have gone out for the third class that one non-Indian applicant 
has come in with a local tribal endorsement that that individual 
be admitted and trained in that class. 

Now, the pharmacists I know have only one Indian pharmacist. 
He's a commissioned officer. He has been in the career develop- 
ment program and is now acting as service unit director of one 
of our programs. But this again is one of the health professional 
categories that we need to entice, encourage Indian youth to seek 
education to enter that field. 

Commissioner Freeman. Dr. McCammon, throughout your 
testimony you have been referring to "we." I would like to know 
who is the "we" that you are talking about that determines the 
policy and the priorities. 

Dr. McCammon. It's hard to say in which situation. In most 
of the cases I think when I have said "we" I have meant the 
Phoenix area. In some situations in talking about eligibility I 


meant the Indian Health Service, which has meant the manage- 
ment direction — 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you identify for the Commis- 
sion those "we's" that include Indians at the point of the making 
of decisions on priority and policy? 

Dr. McCammon. With the Commissioner's indulgence, I'd 
like to tell you what our board does in Phoenix because this is 
the type of decisions that they are making. They are setting the 
priority for contracts for community health representatives, the 
order in which we go to tribes to negotiate contracts with them 
for them to employ community health representatives. They are 
identifying the places that we need construction of Indian health 
facilities and then are placing them in the order of priority. 

They have confirming authority on the selection of the area 
director, the executive officer, and the deputy area director, and 
within the past 2 years they have been given that opportunity. 

Now, they moved into a program, of course, where we had 
established program and policies, a personnel system, and what 
not. But we recently moved into an area in which there is no 
Indian Health Service program policy or program plan, and that 
is a program for the aged and the handicapped, and our area 
board is the one that is working and is setting the objective and 
the policy for our area on what we should be doing and what we 
should be planning for in the care of the aged and handicapped 

These are the types of the Indian decision-making that our 
board does. 

Commissioner Freeman. Would I be correct if I say that on 
the basis of your testimony and the testimony that we have 
heard before you that the Indian community does not receive 
adequate health services from the Indian Health Service? 

Dr. McCammon. If I may respond on that in two ways — 

Commissioner Freeman. Speaking as a professional, as a 

Dr. McCammon. In my capacity I would say there is inade- 
quate quantity of service. The quality of service I think is very 
good. I think we have had reference to young 2-year physicians. 
I think we have been extremely fortunate to have these young 
men. They are well trained, and they are bright, and they have 
a great deal of knowledge. 

What they have been deficient in is experience, and experi- 
ence of working with people and learning some of the art of 
medicine of working with people. 

I think the quality of medicine is good, and I think it is far 
superior to what exists in most of the rural United States in 
comparable size areas. 

It is not the quality of university medicine nor the quality of 


existing metropolitan area. And we are certainly deficient in 
the quantity of services. 

Commissioner Freeman. Would you agree that in making a 
professional evaluation that the judgment should be making the 
comparison on what it ought to be rather than comparing it 
with maybe an inadequate system elsewhere? 

Dr. McCammon. That's correct, and I think the Indian Health 
Service in setting its objective several years ago made that de- 
cision, and it really was — Originally we set our objectives to raise 
the level of the Indian people to that of the people in the sur- 
rounding community, and we very quickly scrapped that, and 
we set our objective, our goal, for the Indian Health Service to 
raise the health of the Indian people to the highest level possible. 

Frequently, the level of the health and the quality of care 
locally — locally around the reservation — is not an acceptable 
quality of care. And we have in this area one State, Nevada, 
where many of our Indian people, because they are scattered 
in small bands and colonies, receive essentially all their care from 
private purveyors of health services in the local very small 
Western community. And to say that they are receiving the 
quality care the rest of the people in that community are re- 
ceiving is good enough is not correct, because we are satisfied 
that there needs to be improvement in the delivery of service to 
all those people in the community, and the Indians should be 
receiving a higher quality care than is available. 

Commissioner Freeman. So that we need to do a lot of im- 

Dr. McCammon. That's right. Absolutely. 
Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 
Commissioner Ruiz. Yes, I'd like to pick up some loose strings 
on the record that maybe we can fill in at this time. 

It has been stated that there is some sort of a recruitment 
program for Indian talent, for paramedical training, at the Uni- 
versity of Southern California. Do you know anything about 

Dr. McCammon. No, I really wonder, Mr. Ruiz, if that 
wasn't — that really he meant the University of California at 
Berkeley. It may be an error in location. At least I'm not aware 
of one that is receiving special funding in Southern California. 

Commissioner Ruiz. You are aware of one that is receiving 
funding in Berkeley? 
Dr. McCammon. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Do you have any direct connections with 
that particular setup? Are persons being recruited for you or for 
your setup? 

Dr. McCammon. The school does the recruiting. We do have 


former employees who are in school there, and some of them are 
now back for field training from the first class. 

We do have an obligation to find and place and effectively use 
those people when they graduate. 

Now, these two schools as I recall are funded from the special 
fund that the President set up on Indian Health two years ago. 
There were funds from other than IHS but went in to support 
Indian health programs. 

Commissioner Ruiz. How many of these former employees 
are Indians? 

DR. McCammon. They are all Indians. They do not recruit 
anyone but Indians for those two programs. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And how many are there? 

Dr. McCammon. There are 10 in each of the two universities, 
and — 

Commissioner Ruiz. Ten in how many universities? 

Dr. McCammon. In the University of Oklahoma and Uni- 
versity of California at Berkeley. 

Commissioner Ruiz. A grand total of 20? 

Dr. McCammon. Twenty. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And how far along are they in this para- 
medical training? 

Dr. McCammon. This is not paramedical training. This is 
graduate-level training. These are all Indian young people who 
have a college degree and for the most part are health pro- 
fessionals and are taking graduate instruction in such fields as 
health management, hospital administration, community health 
planning and management, and these types of things. 

Commissioner Ruiz. In the last year how many have come 
back to you ? 

Dr. McCammon. None have finished their course yet. 

Commissioner Ruiz. In the last 2 years how many have come 
back to you? 

Dr. McCammon. Just the one course, sir. That's all that 
started. Now, we will start receiving some of these — 

Commissioner Ruiz. So that is projected in the future? 

Dr. McCammon. We will start receiving these students within 
the next 2 or 3 months. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Now, there was another item that you 
mentioned — that there was $3 million being awaited by the three 
Indian tribes in order to set up their own control of certain 
health services. Along that line you mentioned $3 million. What 
is that? Where is this funding coming from? 

Dr. McCammon. I think I need to correct this. We are talking 
about two different programs. Within this area, the Phoenix 
area, there's something over $3 million of health-related pro- 
grams that are managed by the tribes. These may be community 


health, alcohol programs, a community mental health program, 
a home nursing program, a community health representative 

Now, the second program, we have three tribes who have 
written proposals and said they are ready and recognize the 
need for and desire to have a health manager to pull these 
fragmented programs that are now in their tribes together 
under experienced head and they would like to call that a tribal 
health department. 

Commissioner Ruiz. To what agency is that proposal being 

Dr. McCammon. That proposal is in to the Indian Health 
Service, and in this year's appropriation there was a little over 
$600,000 appropriated to support these types of operations on a 
demonstration basis. 

Commissioner Ruiz. What are the technical skills that could 
be utilized that do not require, let us say, 2 years of schooling? 
Taking a blood pressure? Injections? Taking of pulses? That 
doesn't require 2 years of schooling? 

Dr. McCammon. No, most of our nurse assistants have had no 
formal training. They have been trained on the job, and they do 
take blood pressures and weight and temperatures. 

For the most part, we have not trained individuals for giving 
injections of medicine unless they have finished at least the 
practical nurse training school. And that is considered a pro- 
fessional nurse category. That is a 2-year school, however. 

Our community health medics, of course, are taught early in 
their program, but again that program is set up as a 2-year 

Commissioner Ruiz. What percentage involve Indians in the 
2-year program? 

Dr. McCammon. These programs that I have been talking 
about have been all Indian programs. 

Commissioner Ruiz. All Indian programs? 

Dr. McCammon. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Now, there's just one more matter of 
curiosity more or less, because you stated that the infant death 
rate occurs at home after the infants are born in hospitals. I 
believe I understood your testimony to be that. 

Dr. McCammon. The impact of the infant deaths that makes 
the total the first year of life occurs after that first week and 
certainly after the first month when the newborn baby has gone 
back into the home and been exposed to that harsh environment. 

Now, some of this may very well relate also to the fact that 
that family does not have the means to get that child into a 
clinic when the child is ill because of lack of transportation or 
because of isolation. So that the early delivery of health services 


in the case of illness undoubtedly has some influence on that 
infant death rate. But — 

Commissioner Ruiz. Could you tell me, Doctor, what per- 
centage of births occur out of hospitals and not necessarily in 
the hospitals involving the Indian population? 

Dr. McCammon. I would say in this area that there are prob- 
ably less than 1 percent of the Indian births that occur outside 
the hospital, and they were not planned that way. Most of the 
ones that do occur, the mother just didn't make it to the hospital. 
I think this is one of our greatest successes in the Indian program 
is the hospital delivery. 

Commissioner Ruiz. I have no more questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, gentlemen. You may be 

I'm sorry. Mr. Powell has a question. 

Mr. Powell. When we were talking about preventive medi- 
cine before, you mentioned the fact that tribes were getting 
involved. We understand that there is an office of tribal affairs 
headed by a gentleman by the name of Moses Paris. Is that 

Dr. McCammon. That's correct, in Washington, at the head- 
quarters level. 

Mr. Powell. Is he listened to by the headquarters in Washing- 
ton? I know the tribes consult him, but is he consulted, is his 
advice heeded in Washington? Indians believe that he is not 
really getting involved. Do you have any information on that- 

Dr. McCammon. No, I have no comment on that at all. 

Mr. Powell. If Indians were eligible for medicare or medicaid 
would that be helpful in meeting the needs? 

Dr. McCammon. There has not been — The Indians in Nevada 
and Utah are covered as citizens for medicare and medicaid, Title 
XVIII and XIX. Arizona, of course, only has a Title XVIII law. 

This did have some impact in Nevada and Utah on the cost to 
us for contractual services. It would have some impact in this 
State. It would not have a major impact except for the people 
who lived off reservation or who lived in reservations close to 
communities that had medical facilities. 

For the most part, the majority of the Indian population is so 
isolated from medical facilities that we would still be the prin- 
cipal purveyor of health services. 

Mr. Powell. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, gentlemen. You may be 

The next area that we will be considering will be the area of 
education, and our first witness is Ms. Joy Hanley, Director, 
Elementary Education, Navajo Nation. 

Ms. Hanley. Will you remain standing? 


(Whereupon, Ms. Joy Hanley was sworn by Commissioner 
Freeman and testified as follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Hanley, please state your name, address, 
and position for the record. 

Ms. Hanley. My name is Joy Jean Hanley. My address is P.O. 
Box 247, Window Rock, Arizona. 

Mr. Powell. And your position? 

Ms. Hanley. I am Director of Elementary Education for the 
Navajo Nation. 

Mr. Powell. You are a Navajo? 

Ms. Hanley. Navajo, yes. 

Mr. Powell. How long have you been in your present position 
and what are the responsibilities of that position? 

Ms. Hanley. I have been in my present position about 1 year, as 
the Division of Education under the Navajo tribe is a brand new 
department. My responsibilities fall in the areas of looking at 
problems we have on the reservation, in coordination of different 

Formerly there was no one under the tribe looking exten- 
sively at Indian education legislation, and this again falls to the — 
this is one of the responsibilities of the department — to look at 
new legislation, how it would affect Navajo children, and the 
education of Indian children. 

Mr. Powell. Briefly describe the earlier positions you have 
held and what the responsibilities of those positions were. 

Ms. Hanley. I taught for 2 years in the Washington School 
District in Phoenix. I worked for National Indian Training and 
Research Center as a research assistant. I worked for the Native 
American Rights Fund setting up programs in different parts 
of the country on Indian reservations, to set up workshops called 
"Know Your Rights in Indian Education." 

In that area, we were concerned with Johnson-O'Malley funds, 
Title I monies, school lunch programs, and community-controlled 

Mr. Powell. Would you briefly describe the purpose for 
which Johnson-O'Malley funds are intended? 

Ms. Hanley. The intent of Johnson-O'Malley funds we be- 
lieve is to — or the original intent — Johnson-O'Malley is an act 
that came about in 1934, and the intent was to provide Indian 
children who were in the transition stage from either mission 
schools or BIA schools to public schools — to provide them with 
the additional monies that they might need. The Federal Gov- 


ernment realized that Indian children in this transitional state 
might have problems. 

Originally, many States used this money in lieu of taxes as 
children attending public schools came from areas where — or 
came from nontaxable areas. You know, the reservations were 
not taxed. 

In 1958, Public Law 874, or impact aid, became available, 
and, supposedly, all Johnson-O'Malley monies were then to re- 
vert to supplemental programs and not to be considered in lieu 
of taxes. Unfortunately, there are still States in the country that 
do not recognize that and use it for general support instead of 
supplemental programs. 

Mr. Powell. I see. So Johnson-O'Malley funds are still not 
being used for the special needs of Indian children but just in lieu 
of taxes ? 

Ms. Hanley. In many States they are not. In some States they 
are. In other States they are not. We have children that are — 
The Navajo have children in public schools in New Mexico, 
Arizona and Utah. In New Mexico our programs are being — The 
Johnson-O'Malley monies are being used for supplemental pro- 
grams. They pay for all children. They pay for lunches. They 
all eat free. They get special supplies. They have special pro- 

In Arizona it's used specifically for general aid rather than 

Mr. Powell. In Arizona the money is not being used for the 
purpose for which it is intended? 
Ms. Hanley. We do not believe so. 

Mr. Powell. Can Federal guidelines be improved so as to pre- 
vent this ? 

Ms. Hanley. We have been working for the last year with the 
Bureau of Indian Affairs. We have had several meetings with 
Harrison Loesch who is Under Secretary of the Interior to ask 
him to change the regulations and come up with guidelines that 
would make Johnson-O'Malley specifically supplementary. 

We did some looking into the school districts in Arizona and 
we found that although they use it for general aid, they get 874, 
so then it's like they are getting two amounts of money for 
taxation. They get 874 which is in lieu of taxes, and then they 
get Johnson-O'Malley, so it's like the Indian kids are bringing in 
double taxation, and we are still not receiving the supplemental 
programs for which the money is intended. 

Again, we have been working trying to persuade Harrison 
Loesch to have the Johnson-O'Malley regulations put into the 
Federal Register so that they may become regulations, but he's 
been very hesitant, and he has not proceeded to do so. 


Mr. Powell. Are there enough Indian teachers teaching In- 
dian students? 

Ms. Hanley. On our reservation there are less than 1 percent. 

Mr. Powell. What are the consequences of — Are Anglo 
teachers successful in relating to Indian students? Are they sensi- 
tive to the needs of Indian students? 

Ms. Hanley. I think you have to look to the Havighurst report 
which was a report which was done several years ago by a 
Dr. Havighurst out of the University of Chicago. It was on 
contract from the Bureau of Indian Affairs. 

One of the things that Dr. Havighurst reports is that 25 per- 
cent of the teachers that are presently teaching Indian children 
don't even like Indian children. And one can only look to those 
kind of things. 

Another area is that we on our reservation — Rather, we have 
many, many children who do not speak English when they 
start school, and our schools, public schools and Bureau schools, 
are not designed to teach Indian children. They are designed as 
though they were teaching non-Indian children in a city. 

The Bureau has made a bigger attempt to change the schools 
than have the public schools. The public schools are still pre- 
tending that they are teaching children that have come out of 
middle class white homes. They don't realize that there is a 
cultural difference, that there is a language difference, and that 
there need to be special programs to really teach these kids the 
kinds of things they need to succeed in the society and to give 
them self-confidence. 

What they are doing is they are building up the confidence — 
The schools and the philosophy behind public schools are to 
build up the self-image of the white Anglo child, and when you're 
trying to build up the self-image of the white Anglo child and 
you're trying to tell an Indian child, I mean, all you're doing is 
making the Indian child feel more inferior rather than building 
his image. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Hanley, please describe how in your opinion 
nonprofessional staff are discriminated against in the — 
Ms. Hanley. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. Powell. Please describe how in your opinion nonpro- 
fessional staff in BIA schools are discriminated against. 

Mr. Hanley. Let me see. I'm not really sure about the non- 
professional staff, but I know that — 

Mr. Powell. What about in public schools then ? 
Ms. Hanley. Again, I have just become a new board member 
of one of the schools. I have come on the board of education, and 
we began looking at policies, and I don't know if these policies 
exist in other public schools, but they do exist in the school that 
I just became a board member on. And we have a double stand- 


ard for non what they call — non-classified staff and teaching 


Mr. Powell. What school are you talking about? 

Ms. Hanley. The Window Rock School District. And in the 
non-classified staff, the cooks, the janitors, the bus drivers and 
those kinds of people, there is a clause in the personnel policies 
that if a person works for the school and they have 5 or 6 years, 
10 years of experience and they quit and they come back, they 
have to start at the very bottom of the scale. You know, none of 
their experience is credited. 

Again, I don't know if this applies in other school districts. 

We will be revising that policy immediately. It's unbelievable 
that you could have somebody be very, very qualified, have all of 
that experience, and not have any of it be looked at. 

Mr. Powell. With respect to BIA reservation schools, would 
you please explain in detail how school boards are constituted 
and whether their powers are more than advisory only? 

Ms. Hanley. The boards are only advisory. I think this is 
one of the biggest problems we have in the area of Indian educa- 
tion, in that Indian communities, Indian parents that live on res- 
ervations, who have children in Bureau of Indian Affairs schools 
do not have the right that most non-Indian parents take for 
granted, and that is the right to control the education of their 
children. They don't have control over policy. They don't have 
control over hiring and firing of staff. They don't have control 
over what the curriculum is in the school. All of that is decided 
in Washington. 

If an administrator so chooses to be responsive to an advisory 
board, he may. But if he chooses not to be, there is nothing 
that says he has to be responsive to the advisory board. 

The advisory board has no authority. It is advisory only. 
Many of these advisory boards never see a budget. Many of the 
advisory boards have no idea, really, what the curriculum is. We 
found that some of the parent advisory committees are not 
really — parent advisory committees of the Title I programs — are 
not really quite aware of their authority even in terms of staffing 
and whatever. 

Mr. Powell. Where Indian parents have children who attend 
public schools, do they attempt at all to participate in the for- 
mulation of policy? 

Ms. Hanley. On our reservation they are beginning to. We 
have had quite a turnover in that — We have had quite a turnover 
in superintendents on the reservation, and I think that the 
people are beginning to realize that they want to have authority. 
They want to have a say in the curriculum of schools. They want 
to have Navajo history taught in the schools. They want to have 


a say in the hiring and firing of teachers, and they want to have 
some voice in the education of their children. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Hanley, from your experience, are there a 
large number of school systems that discriminate against Indian 
students by using culturally-biased texts? 
Ms. Hanley. Yes, there are. 

Mr. Powell. Would you describe how these texts are cul- 
turally biased in favor of non-Indians and what long-run effects 
these kinds of texts have on the education of Indian students? 

Ms. Hanley. I have seen social studies books that are used for 
fifth and sixth graders that have on the same page the European 
culture as opposed to the Indian culture, and it will show the 
Indian in a breechcloth or a little loincloth or whatever they are 
called, poking a little stick in the ground, and then on the next 
page it will have European history and it will have a man 
driving a tractor, you know, and cultivating. And then on down 
there are similar things, you know, showing the Indian to be 
very primitive and very inferior as a person. And I have seen 
these kinds of textbooks being taught in our schools. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Hanley, do you have statistics which com- 
pare the dropout rates of Indian students with those of non- 
Indian students? 

Ms. Hanley. No, I don't. 

Mr. Powell. Are you familiar in general with how dropout 
rates of Indian students compare with those of non-Indian 

Ms. Hanley. The dropout rate of Indians overall is very, very 
high, but the dropout rate of Navajos is not so high. But there is 
more to it than the dropout rate. I think when we are talking 
about dropout — Even though we have a large retention of our 
students, studies and such show that the grade level is very, very 
low even though they are being retained in school. They are 2, 
3 and 4 years behind in grade level. And, again, the lack of 
accountability to the parents, to the Indian community, is re- 
sponsible for these things. 

We have no way of knowing when our children graduate from 
high school if they are really on 12th grade level. And as parents 
we have no policy-making abilities to go to the school and demand 
that our children be of 12th grade level. This accountability is 
lacking, and I think it's lacking not only in education or Bureau 
facilities but it's also lacking in Indian health services. 

You know, this is my view — that because the accountability 
of their service is in Washington and not on the community 
level and not with the Indian people themselves, we will continue 
to have these kinds of lags in health services and education 

Mr. Powell. I suppose the attitude of the Anglo teachers that 


you mentioned earlier has something to do with this also, does it 

Ms. Hanley. Certainly. The attitude of the non-Indian 
teacher to Indian students can determine greatly how that student 
will do. I have had reports into my office this year that in the 
public schools in New Mexico, where many of our children do get 
supplementary programs — You know, they have had their class 
pictures taken, and they are paid by Johnson-O'Malley. They 
eat lunches free. They get other parental cost items. They have 
special programs. And we have had reports from parents that 
teachers are harassing children because they have these services, 
and saying, "You don't have anything to worry about. Yours is 
all paid for. Your parents don't pay taxes." 

All of these kind of things — when one only has to look at the 
average income of the Navajo family which is only around $800 
to $1,000 a year, annually — And still, our children receive this 
kind of harassment in different areas. 

Mr. Powell. What impact does the policy of the Arizona 
Department of Education regarding certification of teachers have 
on the needs of Indian students? 

Ms. Hanley. It's my feeling that in the lower grades, in the 
primary grades, kindergarten, 1, 2, 3, where you have children 
who don't speak English, it's imperative to the education of 
those children that their education be given to them in a language 
they understand. It would be very hard for any of you to go into 
a Navajo classroom or to go into our tribal council or to go into 
one of our chapter house meetings and know what was going on 
when it's completely in Navajo. 

Now, this is the situation with our children if they don't 
speak English. And we have many, many children still that don't 
speak English that go — when they first go into kindergarten or 
when they first go into the first grade they don't speak English. 
But the only language spoken in the classroom is English. Con- 
sequently, the teacher will go through the materials that a child 
is supposed to acquire in the first year of schooling. By the end 
of the year maybe the child is — they pick up very quickly, and 
they begin to learn English — but by the time they are pushed on 
to the second grade they are already behind one year, in that 
they didn't learn all of those kinds of concepts they were sup- 
posed to learn because they were learning English. 

Mr. Powell. So you feel that more Indian teachers even with- 
out a college degree would be important to — 

Ms. Hanley. We have many, many teacher aides on the res- 
ervation that have been teacher aides for many, many years. I 
feel that many of them are very competent. We have had many 
principals and many superintendents say that they are com- 
petent. It's my feeling that in order to have quality education on 


reservations where you have children that only speak their na- 
tive tongue, in order for those children really to learn, they are 
going to have to be taught initially in their native language. 

This brings me on just a little bit further that in the Bureau 
of Indian Affairs schools where there is a lack and they don't 
have enough teachers, many times they fail to get the numbers 
of teachers that they need, and they will put a teacher aide into 
the classroom. And the teacher aides may teach kindergarten or 
first grade, and they will be doing the actual classroom teaching 
of a regular teacher, but they are not paid the salary of a 
teacher. They are paid the salary of an aide although for all 
purposes they are teaching. 

Mr. Powell. Are these Indians — these aides — generally? 

Ms. Hanley. Yes, most of these aides are. 

Mr. Powell. How about children who have religions other 
than those practiced in the majority culture? Indian religions. 
Are they discouraged by teachers in either public schools or the 
BIA schools, to practice Indian religions? 

Ms. Hanley. Historically they were. There has been much 
work done in that area, and I am not really aware if there is 
much discouraging of it now. 

Mr. Powell. Some of our people tell us that that still happens. 

I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Ms. Hanley, I would like to ask if 
your statement concerning the negative stereotype in the text- 
book if these texbooks are used in the Bureau of Indian Affairs 

Ms. Hanley. No. We don't have any textbooks like that left 
in the Bureau of Indian Affairs schools. Again, the Bureau of 
Indian Affairs has made much more of an attempt to present 
Indian materials than have public schools. Unfortunately, to de- 
velop their materials they haven't used many Indians. That's the 
only difference there. 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, you are a member of the Window 
Rock Board of Education? Is that correct? 

Ms. Hanley. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Is there a policy of orientation or 
training for board members ? 

Ms. Hanley. No. 

Commissioner Freeman. Does the board administer the entire 
school system ? I mean does it make all of the decisions ? 

Ms. Hanley. The public schools, yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. It is responsible for selecting the 
teachers ? 

Ms. Hanley. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. So that actually you are now at the 


point where we would say the buck stops in terms of making of 
the decisions ? Is that right ? 

Mr. Hanley. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, I'll just have to say good luck 
to you then. 

Commissioner Ruiz do you have any questions? 

Commissioner Ruiz. I haven't any questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. I have no questions. 

Ms. Hanley. If I may add one additional thing, we have been 
hearing about public health services, and there is one area that 
I think we have failed to hit on, and this one area of concern 
that we have on the Navajo reservation, and that is in one 
community on our reservation the Indian employees have begun 
to complain because it appears that there are two sets of housing. 

There is one that is called the compound and if we may refer 
to the other one as the "PHS pickets." Now, the "pickets" are 
where most of the Indian employees live, and they are barracks 
that were left over from the second world war, if any of you 
remember what those looked like, and they were condemned 
in the 1950's. But, unfortunately, they still stand, and most of 
the Indian employees live there. 

Now, in the other housing it is primarily of the white people 
that work for Public Health, and there are very few Indians 
that live in the compound, but in the pickets there are nothing 
but Indians. 

Commissioner Freeman. Are you referring now to the hous- 
ing that is provided by the Public Health Service? 

Ms. Hanley. Right. 

Commissioner Freeman. And is it your testimony that housing 
is segregated? 

Ms. Hanley. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. And that the quality of housing — 
that there is discrimination on the basis of the quality of hous- 

Ms. Hanley. Right. 

Commissioner Freeman. That the Indian receives a lower 
quality of housing solely because that person is an Indian ? 

Ms. Hanley. Yes. This is what the workers have. And they 
have a report that is out. And I can leave a copy of the report in 
the morning. I don't have it right with me. It's at my motel room. 
But what happens is the pickets again are those old barracks left 
over from the second world war, and when the administration 
was asked about them, they said, "We have been asking for addi- 
tional money for housing but it hasn't come through." 

But it's a very strange thing that when doctors or other pro- 
fessional staff have problems — you know, they have plumbing 


problems or any kind of problems in their housing — their needs 
are seen to immediately. And the Indian people that live in the 
pickets will have the same problems that go on and on and on 
and on, you know, when there seems to be no maintenance. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you make a copy of that report 
available to this Commission ? 

Ms. Hanley. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. And it will be made part of the 

(Whereupon, the document referred to was marked as Ex- 
hibit No. 7 and received in evidence.) 

Commissioner Freeman. This is very significant, because we 
have already asked of the directors of the Health Service to sub- 
mit to us information concerning the housing policies. This will 
be very helpful. 

Ms. Hanley. Yes. 

I have two more items if I may. Our reservation extends in 
New Mexico and Arizona and Utah. Now, in Utah our families 
are no different than they are in Arizona and New Mexico, in 
that they are very, very deprived economically. And the Utah 
State Department of Education requires that all students, all 
secondary students, pay tuition. And many of our students are 
in great need up there, in that they have no monies to pay the 
tuition. They are not eligible for Johnson-O'Malley monies under 
the present regulations because the present regulations say that 
a school district must have a reasonable tax effort. And this par- 
ticular school district because of the oil monies from Indian res- 
ervations does not need to tax its people the amount that it really 
needs. But, nevertheless, the students are required to pay a tui- 

Commissioner Freeman. This requirement is made by the 
State of Utah? 

Ms. Hanley. I would imagine. They say that all school dis- 
tricts have different tuitions, but, nevertheless, you know, our 
students are not eligible. They don't have the monies to pay the 

Commissioner Freeman. What is the other area, Ms. Hanley? 

Ms. Hanley. The other area is in the education opportunity 
grants, EOG grants, in that all universities that get EOG monies 
from the Office of Education that have Indian students count 
their Indian students to be eligible for EOG. And the amount of 
money they receive is because they have counted Indian students. 
It's been documented by the United Scholarship Service and the 
tribe office that our students do not receive their fair share of 
EOG grants. They go to the financial aids officers in many uni- 
versities and they are told, "You are not really eligible for 
EOG grants because you get Bureau of Indian Affairs money." 


Yet we know there is a memorandum of agreement between 
the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Office of Education that 
certain percentages of this EOG money will be available to In- 
dian students in universities. And they are not getting their 

Commissioner Freeman. On the basis of this and other testi- 
mony that we have heard which would tend to indicate that 
some of the States and the political subdivisions are them- 
selves denying to the Indians some basic Constitutional rights, 
we would like to ask the general counsel if he will pursue this 
so that we can have an opinion for the record. If these states 
themselves are in consort with any individuals or the Federal 
government then this is a very serious situation. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, so the record will be clear, are 
you referring to the testimony about the Utah requirement that 
people pay tuition to high schools? 

Commissioner Freeman. That's right. 

Ms. Hanley. I just have one more item. I'm sorry. This has to 
do with Public Health Service too, in that they were talking 
about the programs, the graduate programs, that were available. 
They were training administrators and such to come back and 
hopefully go into the administration. 

Well, we found that in education we have had many, many 
Indians and that the Bureau of Indian Affairs has given grants 
to several universities for people with graduate degrees, and we 
found that when these people go back, in fact, to the schools that 
they left, to the Bureau of Indian Affairs schools, they are put in 
the very same positions that they had when they left, and they 
are not elevated at all. 

Right now the Washington office is trying to change some of 
this, in that they have created supposedly 20 positions on the 
central office and Washington office to give these people training, 
trying to push the local areas into promoting these Indians, but 
we are having much, much trouble in getting these Indians once 
they have degrees and once they have the background for these 
administrative positions. 

There are exceptions to this, but overall this is the problem we 
are running into, so that the graduate programs are not the 
answer. We found that it's not working in education. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. You may be 

Next, we have two witnesses representing the Arizona State 
Teaching Intern Panel, Ms. Lucille Watahomigie and Ms. LaVonne 
Three Stars. 

Will you remain standing, please? 

(Whereupon, Ms. Lucille Watahomigie and Ms. LaVonne Three 


Stars were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and testified as 
follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Would you each please state your name and 
address for the record beginning with the young lady on my 

Ms. Watahomigie. My name is Lucille Watahomigie. My ad- 
dress is 1832 Prudence Place, Tucson, Arizona. 

Ms. Three Stars. My name is LaVonne Three Stars, 4801 
North Granite Reef Road, Scottsdale, Arizona. 

Mr. Powell. You are both students ? 

Ms. Three Stars. Yes 

Ms. Watahomigie. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Would you each describe your educational back- 
ground and tell us what you are currently doing to fulfill your 
educational objectives, beginning with Ms. Watahomigie? 

Ms. Watahomigie. I am doing my graduate work at the Uni- 
versity of Arizona in the Indian internship project. I graduated 
from the Phoenix Indian School in 1963 and got my bachelor of 
arts in Flagstaff, Arizona, at Northern Arizona University. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Three Stars ? 

Ms. Three Stars. I am involved in work on my doctorate in 
counseling psychology and am currently here at Phoenix High 
School on a year's internship for the requirements of that pro- 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Watahomigie, you attended the Phoenix In- 
dian School a few years ago. In your opinion, how did the educa- 
tion you received there prepare you for the society in which you 
wanted to live? 

Ms. Watahomigie. It did not prepare me. It was a real long, 
hard struggle for me to go on to college, and, in fact, the first 
year — the first two years of college — I had to repeat many of my 
courses because my academic background wasn't much help to 

Mr. Powell. Based on your observations, how does the quality 
of teachers found in the BIA schools compare to that of teach- 
ers in public schools, either Ms. Three Stars or Ms. Watahomigie? 

Ms. Three Stars. BIA teachers as compared to public school 
teachers, I feel, are very much inferior, and the reasons are 

For one, the BIA does not recognize academic achievement. If 
a teacher goes to summer school and increases his academic 


background, when he returns he goes into the same position or 
the same step within that position. 

Mr. Powell. They don't provide incentive for teachers then? 
They don't encourage them to go ahead and prepare themselves? 

Ms. Three Stars. No. And in public schools the teachers with 
12 or 15 hours receive an increase in salary. And, you know, I 
myself am an example of that. I received my master's in 1970 
and suggested a raise to my supervisor. He was one of the many 
incompetent, ineffective Anglos in Indian education, and he simply 
couldn't do that. 

Ms. Watahomigie. And another reason why the quality of 
teachers of public schools, you know, compared to BIA schools — 
is that the public school teachers — you have to draw a line be- 
tween not only the public schools, because we do have public 
schools on the reservations which are not meeting the needs 
of the Indian students either. So I think that it would be best 
to draw a line between the suburban schools, you know, and — 

Mr. Powell. The suburban schools are better than the public 
schools on the reservation ? 

Ms. Watahomigie. Yes. I mean the quality of the teachers, 
because they do have pressure from the parents. You know, these 
teachers in the suburban schools have pressure from the parents 
and the administration to keep up on the innovative trends in 
education. And usually the administration on the reservation 
public schools and BIA schools is — That administration, you 
know, could care less. And so, therefore, the morale of the 
teachers is low and they can't do a good job of teaching. It's 
usually left up to the teacher to do what he wants, and there's 
really no followup by the administration of the teachers. 

But it depends a lot on the situation. We have an ideal 
situation in Gila Crossing, and that's a BIA school. But they 
do have an Indian principal and Indian superintendent, and they 
are, you know — They know what their teachers are doing, and 
they are Indians, and they understand what the Indian children 

Mr. Powell. I'm not sure that we got either one of your 
tribal affiliations in the record. Ms. Watahomigie? 

Ms. Watahomigie. I'm Hualapai from Peach Springs, Arizona. 

Mr. Powell. And Ms. Three Stars ? 

Ms. Three Stars. I'm a Sioux. 

Mr. Powell. Did either one of you, either at the high school 
or college level, ever have the benefit of Indian counselors who 
understood your problems and were able to help you ? 

Ms. Three Stars. No. 

Ms. Watahomigie. I never have. 

Mr. Powell. Do you think if you did it might have made a 


Ms. Three Stars. I think it would have made a tremendous 

Ms. Watahomigie. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Ms. Three Stars, I understand you are a counselor 
at the Phoenix Indian School. 

Ms. Three Stars. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Based on your experience thus far, what is 
the self-concept of students here? 

Ms. Three Stars. I would say it's generally negative. 

Mr. Powell. What, in your opinion, are the reasons for such 
a low self-concept on the part of students here at the Phoenix 
Indian High School ? 

Ms. Three Stars. Well, I think that we have to look at his- 
torical reasons mainly, and those are that, historically, the BIA 
has negated everything Indian. 

Mr. Powell. Has what? 

Ms. Three Stars. Has negated everything Indian. "Cut your 
hair; it's bad. Don't eat your Indian food; it's bad. Don't prac- 
tice your Indian religion; it's bad." 

The Bureau also now says, "This is no longer true. We don't 
do this. We agree the Indian culture is good." But the negation 
is still there, only more subtle but just as destructive. 

Mr. Powell. What do you suppose can be done about that? 
What do you suggest be done about that ? 

Ms. Three Stars. Well, I think, first of all, we'd have to 
begin with staff and get staff in who are appreciative of the 
Indian culture and will help the student recognize that he is 
good and that there are aspects of his culture which need to be 

Mr. Powell. Are disciplinary problems at BIA schools dif- 
ferent from such problems at other schools, at public schools? 

Ms. Three Stars. Yes, I think they are, and I think the in- 
tensity of the problems is worse in BIA schools than in public 

Mr. Powell. Are there any meaningful programs of counsel- 
ing at BIA schools to meet the problems of students? 

Ms. Three Stars. No, — 

Mr. Powell. I suppose your earlier testimony suggests there 

Ms. Three Stars. As a counselor I have to say no, because, 
like at Phoenix Indian School, we have a tremendous problem 
with sniffing, and I see — 

Mr. Powell. A tremendous problem with what? 
Ms. Three Stars. With sniffing, paint sniffing. And I see 
nothing being done at the present time, nothing different being 
done. The students aren't responding to traditional counseling 


methods. And the problem doesn't seem to be corrected. It's 
getting worse. 

Mr. Powell. Are Indian students either at Phoenix or any 
other BIA Indian school forced to attend Christian religious serv- 

Ms. Watahomigie. When I was here about 10 — Let's see — 
I graduated here in 1963, and we were forced to attend. We 
couldn't, you know — We had to go to some sort of religious 
service. But then — 

Mr. Powell. That might have been under the earlier policy 
that Ms. Three Stars mentioned. 

Ms. Watahomigie. Yes. And then — But I think — I don't 
know. I can't speak for — 

Ms. Three Stars. I don't know of any policy now that says 
they have to. It might be more subtle. 

Mr. Powell. Our investigation indicates that Indians drop out 
at much higher rate than non-Indians in public schools. To what 
would you attribute this, either Ms. Three Stars or Ms. Wata- 
homigie ? 

Ms. Watahomigie. I think that basically it's because the 
Indian isn't given the academic background in the primary 
schools, and that's because of the teachers, and it goes back to 
the administration. When they are first grade, second grade they 
are usually socially promoted, and by the time they are in the 
fifth, sixth, grade they are reading first grade level, and by the 
time they are at eighth grade level they are still reading at a far 
lower level and, then, by the time they get to high school they 
have to compete in public schools, and they drop out, or, when 
they do come to Indian schools, they are still not being provided 
that academic background, but they are just being promoted. 
By the time they graduate from BIA schools I feel that they 
have dropped out but were just socially promoted. This is one 
reason for unemployment on reservations too. 

And, you know, there is no level of self-concept. 

Ms. Three Stars. But the Bureau has said for a hundred 
years that, "We are meeting the special needs of Indian stu- 
dents." And they have verbalized that. And it simply isn't true. 
And they are verbalizing it today, and I can't see that it is true. 
The fantastically high dropout rate. 

Mr. Powell. What would you say, Ms. Three Stars, is the 
greatest problem here at the Phoenix Indian School ? 

Ms. Three Stars. I would say the greatest problem here at 
the Indian School is the ineffective, incompetent, insensitive 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Ms. Three Stars, you are a trained 
counselor. You're getting your doctorate in guidance and coun- 


seling, and you're assigned here at the school. Would you tell 
the Commission, if you know, how many counselors are em- 
ployed by this school ? 

Ms. Three Stars. At the present time we have five, and last 
year I believe there were 11. There were some under special pro- 
grams. But it seems to me that if an individual comes into the 
Bureau and he is effective and functioning and relates well to 
the student, the Bureau sometime, somehow, finds a way to get 
rid of him, either transfer or simply apply enough pressure so 
that he leaves. And I think that is one of the reasons why we 
have such a high average age of teachers here at Phoenix Indian 
High School. The Bureau can apply pressure, and the effective 
people go. Those who don't rock the boat and who don't make 
waves stay and stay and stay and stay. 

Commissioner Freeman. Do these persons that don't rock the 
boat and stay and stay and stay and stay have training as 

Ms. Three Stars. No, I don't, if you mean the effective kind 
of counselor education ? 

Commissioner Freeman. Educational training as counselors. 

Ms. Watahomigie. I really don't think that most counselors — 
Well, I know that 2 years ago, 2 summers ago, they were hiring 
here at the Phoenix Indian School, and everybody was asking me 
if I would apply. And I said, "Well, I don't have any hours in 
counseling, you know, psychology or anything." 

And they told me, "Well, if you have 12 hours in psychology 
you can be hired." 

And I felt, well, I wouldn't be doing the Indian students any 
good even if I had 12 hours, so, therefore, I refused to even 
apply for the position. But I know that there were several that 

Commissioner Freeman. Speaking of doing students any good 
in the counseling, my next question refers to the student with 
problems. Does the counselor receive the social reports or the 
reports from social workers of any agency in those instances 
where a student may have a problem? Is this kind of cooperative 
relationship in existence? 

Ms. Three Stars. I think that we have fairly good relation- 
ships with some reservations. Is that your question? 

Commissioner Freeman. Yes. Suppose a student gets into 
trouble, a student in the school or student at another school. 
Well, take the situation because you are at the school. What 
information is made available to you to help you counsel the 
student even though the difficulty may have occurred not at the 
school but elsewhere, maybe at the reservation? 

Ms. Three Stars. Oh, I would not say that is good. We don't 
get a great deal of information with the students who come in. 


Ms. Watahomigie. Before the school year program began at 
the Phoenix Indian School, we were doing a workshop orienta- 
tion, and I was here for one day. There was a man who had 
come from the Apache reservation, and he said that they did send 
forms about the background material of the students, but, appar- 
ently, he said, the counselors did say they never got hold of those 
records. It was lost somewhere in the files as I understand it. But 
you would have to clarify that. 

Commissioner Freeman. Your counseling, does include in- 
forming the students about scholarship assistance that may be 
available? Is that correct? 

Ms. Three Stars. Does counseling include that? 

Commissioner Freeman. Yes. 

Ms. Three Stars. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Could you tell us if the Bureau of 
Indian Affairs scholarship grants are made available to the so- 
called urban or non-reservation Indian? 

Ms. Three Stars. I don't know. We at the Indian School 
don't have many urban Indian students here so I don't think that 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, those that are here, would they 
be eligible, considered eligible, within the rules of the school for 
the scholarship? 

Ms. Three Stars. I think it would depend on how aggressive 
the counselor is. You know, the BIA does buckle under pressure 
as well as apply pressure, and I think it depends on the aggres- 
siveness of the counselor how much help that he or she can get 
for his student. 

Commissioner Freeman. What do you mean by "pressure"? 

Ms. Three Stars. Well, if I have an urban Indian student, 
then I can work with the area office and apply pressure and 
really insist that he get the help and say, "I know that he is 
eligible and he does need this assistance." 

I don't think the Bureau has any right to sit up there and say, 
"These are urban Indians and these are reservation Indians and 
therefore. . ." If an Indian student is qualified to go to college, 
then I think he should have the financial support. 

Ms. Watahomigie. But there are instances where an urban 
Indian doesn't have the privilege of getting a BIA scholarship 
unless the parent does write to his Congressman and things like 
this. But how many Indian parents would do that? They just 
don't know what procedure to go through to get their child this 
BIA grant. But it is happening. 

Commissioner Freeman. In other words, there are instances 
where the Indian really, because he is an urban Indian — 

Ms. Watahomigie. Not living on the reservation. 


Commissioner Freeman. — receives a different kind of treat- 

Ms. Watahomigie. Yes. Do you want me to quote? 

Commissioner Freeman. Yes. 

Ms. Watahomigie. Well, there was this family we met in 
Yosemite the past summer, and the boy was crippled, he couldn't 
support himself to go to school as he was doing before. So his 
mom wrote everybody trying to ask for money, and she did say 
that at last she found monies to go, but she had to go through all 
this red tape in order to get him money. 

I do have some relatives living up in Colorado, and they are not 
eligible for such programs, and they have to come back on the 
reservation and then go through the reservation, you know, and 
say that they are an enrolled Indian to get any kind of, say, 
relocation training or something like this. 

Commissioner Freeman. Do either of you have any opinion as 
to the basis for this distinction? 

Ms. Three Stars. I think that the Bureau has always — The 
relationship of the Bureau to the Indian has been to divide. 
And this is just another means of dividing — to pit the urban 
Indian against the reservation Indian. In the past they could pit 
one tribe against the other, and this is very easy to do. A group 
of Indians will come out with a statement and the Bureau can 
always find another group of "apples" to come up with a con- 
tradictory statement, and on and on it goes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. What procedure would you suggest to 
eliminate some counselors and retain those that relate well? 
What procedure for the priority of retention would you suggest 
that would be effective? 

Ms. Three Stars. Well, it seems to me that the Bureau needs 
to set up some kind of standards that the counselor or teacher 
would meet as in the public schools. If public school people don't 
perform, they don't stay around. And the Bureau seems to be 
overwhelmed with those people who don't perform. 

Ms. Watahomigie. They usually come to us. 

Commissioner Ruiz. There are no standards at the moment, 
then, with regard to this specific item? 

Ms. Three Stars. Well, there is nothing that says, "If you 
don't meet these requirements within your job situation you 
won't be able to stay." I mean I suppose there are on really 
gross things, insanity — and I'm not too sure about that. 

Ms. Watahomigie. And then there is the Peter Principle, you 
know, too. Once they perform inadequately or something, they're 
just usually transferred — but with a promotion. And they are the 
ones that end up in Washington. (Laughter.) 

But there is another thing about BIA education, too, that it 


operates under the — You know — like all BIA schools are just one 
gigantic school district. And they hire all the teachers in BIA 
schools all over the United States in Albuquerque, and then they 
have a teacher recruiter, and, usually, the teacher recruiter 
doesn't know that much about different areas, but they go and 
give misinformation about certain areas such as Alaska. They 
hire poor teachers, and then they don't have pre-service training, 
which is very important, so that the teacher, the incoming 
teacher, will be aware of the problems — or not problems but the 
culture of the Indian people in one geographic area. This is 
really important for the teacher to know. You know, you don't 
have this pre-service training in BIA schools or in public schools 
on reservations. 

Commissioner Ruiz. It's been very enlightening. Thank you 
very much. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs, do you have any ques- 

Mr. Buggs. Just a couple. I suppose I must admit to a little 
confusion. Are you suggesting that BIA schools ought to be 
done away with or ought to be improved ? 

Ms. Three Stars. I am suggesting they ought to be improved. 

Mr. Buggs. I suppose that one of the reasons, rather, one of 

the processes through which that improvement might be made 

is that more Indian teachers teach at BIA schools. Is that 


Ms. Three Stars. Yes. 

Ms. Watahomigie. I'd rather have Indian people educate 
our own people, and I really don't want public schools to be 
educating our Indian students, either because just like, you 
know, the public schools that we have on our reservations are 
ineffective for the Indian students, and it's only up to us Indian 
people to educate our own people. It seems that the Office of 
Management and Budget and the other Federal agencies do not 
cooperate and help us contract schools. They should do more to 
remove the barriers where we can contract our own schools such 
as Ramah on the Navajo. 

Mr. Buggs. What problems would you have in teaching at an 
Tndian school? 

Ms. Watahomigie. What do you mean? 
Mr. Buggs. Well, do you teach in an Indian school? 
Ms. Watahomigie. I did teach in Peach Springs for 2 years. 
And what problems did I have? Well, the problems that I really 
had were with the other teachers, because I really didn't feel that 
they were doing a good job teaching my tribe. And the only prob- 
lem that I had was with those teachers. 

Ms. Buggs. Is that the reason you left — because you had the 
problems with the teachers ? 


Ms. Watahomigie. Well, I felt I wasn't really doing, I couldn't 
do what I wanted to do, with those teachers, so that's the 
reason why I came back to school, because as an administrator I 
might be able to weed out these bad teachers. 

Mr. Buggs. So you do intend to go back to an Indian school? 

Ms. Watahomigie. Yes, I intend to go back, and I feel that all 
Indians should go back. 

Mr. Buggs. Good. I'm delighted to hear it, because that's 
probably the only way changes are going to be made. 

Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. 

Ms. Three Stars. May I add a comment for the record? The 
Bureau has espoused the policy that they do not condone physical 
and mental punishments for students in BIA schools. However, 
within the past 2 weeks here at Phoenix Indian School a young 
Hopi girl, a client of mine, bright and intelligent, was slapped 
by a white staff member, and the girl was sent home the following 

I think this is a tremendous loss. I had been working with her 
on a weekly basis since the middle of September when she was 
referred to me, and I did see significant improvement in her 
behavior as did other staff members. 

The white staff member slapped the girl, and the girl returned 
the slap to the white staff member, and consequently she was 
sent home. 

Mr. Powell. If you will provide details for us, we will look 
into that. 

Ms. Three Stars. I will be glad to do that. 

Mr. Powell. I'm glad you didn't mention any names. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. You may be 

Our next witness and final witness before dinner is Dr. Carl 

Will you remain standing, sir? 

(Whereupon, Dr. Carl A. Hammerschlag was sworn by Com- 
missioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Dr. Hammerschlag, please state your name, 
address, and present position for the record. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. My name is Carl Hammerschlag. I reside 
here in the Phoenix area. I am a psychiatrist in the employ of 
the Indian Health Service. 

MR. Powell. Dr. Hammerschlag, would you tell us what your 


work experience and educational background have been prior to 
coming to Phoenix ? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. You want my training in psychiatry? 

Mr. Powell. Your educational background. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. My educational background. Undergrad- 
uate at the City College of New York. Medical school in Syracuse. 
Internship in the State of Washington. I spent 2 years with the 
Public Health Service as a general medical officer with the 
Indian tribes of New Mexico on the Rio Grande. I took my 
postgraduate training at Yale University in psychiatry. I have 
been here since 1970. I have been working with Indian people for 
414 years. 

Mr. Powell. Thank you. Dr. Hammerschlag, I understand 
that you have prepared a paper entitled "Indian Education, A 
Human Systems Analysis." Is that correct? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Yes, and was asked to submit that to 
the Commission, and have done so. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, at this point I would like to 
have that entered into the record. 

Commissioner Freeman. It will be received. 

(Whereupon, the document referred to was marked as Ex- 
hibit No. 8 and received in evidence.) 

Mr. Powell. Dr. Hammerschlag, would you describe the kind 
of research you undertook to write this paper? And would you 
please summarize for the Commission some of the major con- 
clusions you reached concerning the quality of education given 
to Indian students in the country today? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Surely. 

Let me preface my remarks by saying that my opinions are 
offered as an individual and are not intended to reflect in any 
way any Federal or Indian agency approval. 

I came to the Phoenix Indian School in 1970 as part of the 
commitment to provide some kind of mental health services to 
the student population here. I viewed that task as kind of 
getting to know what things were like here and interviewed 
many people here at the school as a way to find out what things 
were like and a way for me to meet people and a way for them 
to meet me as well. 

On the basis of those kinds of undertakings, we attempted to 
understand what life here at the school was like both for students 
and staff members as well, in an attempt to understand and then 
share the information with one another to improve in some ways 
the nature of life here at the institution. 

So that was the background in terms of the study. 

Mr. Powell. Would you please summarize for the Commission 
some of the major conclusions you reached concerning the quality 
of education given Indian students in the country today? 


DR. Hammerschlag. It's hard to summarize. Many students 

Mr. Powell. Let me discuss with you, then, and we can get 
back to that. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Okay. 

Mr. Powell. Would you please describe how, in your opinion, 
the BIA schools have evolved and discuss the policy considera- 
tions which determine whether or not a student will or will not be 
sent to a boarding school? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Okay. It seems to me that's an important 
consideration when one understands what the task of at least 
off-reservation boarding schools are. Students are referred here 
for essentially two reasons. One is that there are no other 
schools available to them on the reservations from which they 
come, and the other for so-called social reasons, a fairly large 
diagnostic category including children who come from large 
families; it's very expensive to live; it's cold; it's easier for the 
family to survive with the children here rather than at home; 
kids who have had difficulty in other schools ; kids who have been 
thrown out; kids who have been behavioral problems. Those 
kind of things. 

The overwhelming majority of our students come for so-called 
social reasons. Relatively few come because there are no other 
schools available. Most have had educational experiences else- 
where and are referred for those reasons. 

As a result, we see a highly skewed sample of studentry. And 
one of the difficulties I sense with off-reservation boarding 
school education is that the schools have not as yet denned the 
primary task. If we get kids for so-called social reasons, the 
implication is that they come here because we can do something 
for those social reasons ; that is, we can control behavior. And I 
think that that's different than sending kids to come to a school 
to be educated primarily. 

I think the school tries to do both, and it is an impossible task ; 
To provide an institution with some controls, and to provide high 
quality education. I think it can't do both. 

I think the two tasks are probably antithetical — that it's hard 
to provide that in this kind of atmosphere. 

A child who does well academically may not stay in the school 
because of the behavioral acting out difficulties — sniffing, 
running away, going AWOL, coming in late, all those kinds of 
issues. And the reason that they can't stay is because it rep- 
resents a real hardship for those people who work in dormitories 
to be able to control that kind of behavior. 

Most institutions run to perpetuate themselves, and for most 
of the people to follow the same rules most of the time. It leaves 
little room for individual variability. 


Those kids who have difficulty in following the rules are 
asked to leave because the institution could not tolerate, for 
example, many of its children denning the rules themselves. 
Kids who are bright and academically alert and may test the 
rules are frequently the ones who are asked to leave. Those kids 
who can follow the rules well but may or may not be able to 
achieve academically usually stay. The rewards are those of 
behavioral control rather than academic excellence, and some- 
times those are mutually exclusive — not always. 

In fairness, the school has considerable difficulty in dealing 
with it. We have too few staff members, too few people in the 
dormitories, and the institutions have not, as yet, defined the 
primary task, whether it's behavioral control or education. My 
experience and findings suggest it cannot do both. 

Mr. Powell. One of the Indian members of our Arizona State 
Advisory Committee suggested a question. What training or 
orientation have you had regarding Indian behavior patterns — 
which, she points out, vary significantly from the Anglo norm? 
Do you consider these in evaluating the questions we are dis- 
cussing now? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. That's right. My experience comes from 
direct experience. There are very few of us who have been 
involved in Indian education for any extended period of time. 

Mr. Powell. Your experience comes from the direct experi- 
ence you have had during the last 41/2 years which you men- 
tioned ? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Two years in New Mexico with a school, 
and 21/2 years here. 

Mr. Powell. We have heard quite a bit of testimony about 
dropout rates among Indians and how much higher they are. 
And I think you have discussed some of the reasons why this 
might be so. Do you care to comment further? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Dropout rates are very high. The reasons 
for that are many and varied. Part of that has to do with ex- 
pectations for Indian children to perform — not only true in off- 
reservation Indian boarding schools but in all schools that deal 
with so-called culturally disadvantaged groups, blacks and 
Chicanos as well. 

In several recent reports — Charles Silberman's book, for 
example, "Crisis in Black and White," and his recent book on 
education — he suggests that one can't help but be impressed with 
the modesty of expectations that teachers have of students who 
represent those groups. 

Mr. Powell. I'm familiar with that first book by Charles 
Silberman, "Crisis in Black and White." You mentioned a more 
recent book. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Right. 


Mr. Powell. Which one is that? For the record let's indicate 
what you're talking about. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I have forgotten its name. "Crisis in the 
Classroom," I believe it's called. And I think that those are 
generally true. I think Indian children — it's hard to summarize 
— drop out because there is a myth that suggests that everybody 
who gets prepared in this school has an equal chance for achiev- 
ing in the outside world. 

It's a perpetuation of a myth that suggests that if you continue 
to go to school here and you do well you will be able to do well on 
the outside. And it's not true. 

That our kids do well here does not mean that they will do 
well elsewhere. They are probably poorly prepared for under- 
taking college credit. 

A lot of our kids have a lot of difficulty making it on the out- 
side. Most of our children score in the lowest ten percentile on 
competitive examinations, SATs and college aptitude tests. The 
myth that suggests that if they do well here means they will do 
well outside is simply untrue, and I sense that our kids begin to 
understand that the more they spend time in these kinds of 

Mr. Powell. Is this one of the boarding schools to which you 
referred earlier ? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I'm speaking for Indian education gen- 
erally and for boarding schools specifically. I think that it's un- 
fair for us to simply look at this boarding school or any off- 
reservation boarding school as exemplificative. 

Mr. Powell. I'm not talking — I just asked if this is one of 
those boarding schools that you were referring to earlier? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. This is one, yes, of many. 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. The same would be true in South Phoenix, 
for example, in the expectations of black children and how they 
do in school. I think the kids basically sense that they are not 
being well prepared. 

Mr. Powell. I think your testimony has also anticipated the 
next question which my staff has, and that is the question of low 
self-esteem. All the factors that you mentioned would contribute 
to a low self-esteem of students at BIA schools? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. That's not a word that I used in that 
paper, low self-esteem. I think our kids feel good about them- 
selves, but I think they become increasingly angry with the kinds 
of things they see around them and feel powerless to change 
them. I think that is the key in terms of contemporary move- 
ments in education. Our kids don't feel — 

Mr. Powell. Someone who is angry, at least, has some motive 
force. Wouldn't you agree? 


Dr. Hammerschlag. Yes, I do. I think that Indian people 
generally don't share that kind of feeling. I think that they for 
a hundred years have been rendered essentially powerless by a 
system which essentially has made them institutionally depend- 
ent, and I think that we deal with symptomatic expressions 
when we talk about Indian education. 

For a hundred years everything has been done for Indian 
people after their disenfranchisement. They have been essentially 
dealt with as a defeated nation, and from birth to death they 
are cared for by Federal agencies. You can't take care of people 
by giving them things without taking something away. And what 
we take away from them is some sense of their own worth, in- 
dependence, and power. 

I think that's counterfeit nurturance. You give somebody 
something like from the Bureau or from the Federal Government 
without recognizing that by giving one also takes something 
away. You emphasize the ability of the giver to give and the 
neediness of the receiver in having to receive. That's a re-crea- 
tion of a master-slave syndrome. 

The difficulty that we see in Indian education is that our kids 
are an expression of that kind of problem. Nobody can take the 
power in their own hands to do things. And I think that no 
change in, for example, boarding schools is going to make any 
difference in terms of dealing with that problem. 

No increase in the number of counselors, for example, is going 
to make any difference in dealing with the problems of Indian 
children. All that does is symptomatically treat the problem 
expressions of those kids, whether the counselors are Anglo or 
whether they are Indian. 

One deals with the children as if the problem is theirs and 
that they ought to be able to deal with counselors who will 
help them with their problem, and it blames the victims. It 
makes the children responsible for the behavior without under- 
standing that the underlying issues cause those kinds of symp- 

Mr. Powell. Well, then, how would you deal with those under- 
lying issues ? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. The underlying issues, as I am suggest- 
ing, are massive institutional dependency and a rampant sense 
of powerlessness, a sense that one is not controlling one's own 
kind of destiny, and I'm suggesting to you also that no increase 
in counselors, for example, deals with the problem. It masks 
the problem. It makes people believe that something is being done 
when indeed it is not. 

Mr. Powell. You are suggesting that increase in counselors, 
whether they be Indian or non-Indian, is merely symptomatic — 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Yes. 


Mr. Powell. — in dealing with the problem? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. How do you deal in a more fundamental sense 
with the problem ? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. In a more fundamental sense, one has to 
give Indian people some sense of their own degree of powerful- 
ness in controlling their own institutions. 

Mr. Powell. Could curriculum changes be a step in the right 
direction ? What kind of — 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Curriculum changes would be. 

Mr. Powell. What kind would you make? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. If the parents were in charge of chang- 
ing that curriculum. Indian parents must become more involved 
in the education of their children. Off-reservation boarding 
schools allow Indian parents to become essentially uninvolved 
since the schools are quite a distance away from home terri- 
tories. We do have a school board, and it is a step in the right 
direction, but we share that board with other off-reservation 

In order for us to make a real change in education, Indian 
parents are going to have to become much more intimately 
involved with the education of their children. They share that 
responsibility but have abandoned it. 

Most of our parents are unaware of Johnson-O'Malley funds 
or Title I or impact aid. 

The way to do that is to involve parents with the educa- 
tion of their children in their own territories. I think that chang- 
ing off-reservation boarding schools doesn't deal with the un- 
derlying issue, and that is essentially parent, community, and 
Indian control of those services. It has to be done at home, near 

Mr. Powell. Well, once you have Indian control, what steps 
then should be taken? Do you think that will be the solution in 
and of itself? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I have no objection to public schools if 
there are Indian parents who can sit on school boards. I needn't 
go over with you the sad history of Indian attempts at involve- 
ment in school boards, largely because they have been excluded, 
but, secondly, because the parents themselves don't believe that 
they have anything to say or that anyone will listen or that 
they have the power to exercise. 

Mr. Powell. Should there be curriculum changes in addition 
to Indian control ? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I would change the curriculum in some 
direction that Indian parents felt it should be changed. 

I think that the time has come for us to stop making those 
decisions for the people. We continue to perpetuate the myth 


that we know what it is that they need or want. The way to 
change it is to somehow allow them the opportunity of provid- 
ing input and telling us what they think we ought to teach. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. Well, isn't that what this entire hear- 
ing is about? To break decisively with the past and to create 
conditions for a new era in which the Indian future is deter- 
mined by Indian acts and Indian decisions? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I think so, Commissioner. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And isn't it a fact that these decisions 
that the Federal Government has been making have to be turned 
over to the Indians to have the Indians administer these mat- 
ters and let the Indians finally make the determinations ? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I believe that is also true. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Wouldn't this be giving the Indians back 
something that, as you say, has been taken away as dependents 
which is that they haven't been controlling their own destiny? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I think it would. 

Commissioner Ruiz. So you sounded pessimistic there, but 
I think in analyzing what you have said is exactly what this 
entire hearing has been about. And you have given a very schol- 
arly dissertation. I think we're all coinciding. Thank you. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. 

Commissioner Freeman. I think, sir, that I would like to 
follow up on what Commissioner Ruiz has said by making a 
statement that will clarify the record. You're saying that there 
are real problems that are systemic, and you are saying that 
the Bureau of Indian Affairs ought to be at least under the con- 
trol of the Indians. I don't want anybody to get the impression 
that this Commission believes that it has the power to change 
the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I think that we'd better make 
that — 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I must say in fairness I'm not sure that 
even if the Bureau was changed under the Indian control that 
it would make any manifest difference. Perhaps we need some 
new institutions to deal with the problem rather than revamp- 
ing of the old ways with institutional entrenchment. 

Part of the difficulty I sense from the testimony here today 
is it's very difficult to get an Indian point of view. Urban Indians, 
reservation Indians, although I dislike those dichotomies as 
my colleagues have also shared, unfortunately, that is a prob- 
lem. No one speaks for the Indians. I sense no one speaks for 
the white man or the black man or the Chicano. One has to 
deal with those problems. But it has to be left in their hands. 

We perpetuate those difficulties by suggesting nobody speaks 
for the Indian and therefore disallowing them the privilege of 


trying to deal with it themselves and stepping into the void by 
providing that leadership ourselves. That game has to stop. 

Commissioner Freeman. One of the real tragedies in this 
country is that we have not learned how to benefit from di- 
versity. We have not learned this at all. Mr. Buggs. 

Mr. Buggs. What kind of recommendations would you sug- 
gest this Commission make to Congress and/or to BIA in con- 
nection with — 

Dr. Hammerschlag. I have often fantasized what I would 
do with all that power. 


And I must say I appreciate the opportunity of sharing those 
fantasies. I think that there is no such thing as Indian educa- 
tion. I think that's a myth. I think that our children are going 
to have to compete with everybody else and in the general frame- 
work, and the way to compete is to compete well and in the 
same atmosphere. 

These kinds of institutions I think disallow our children the 
privilege of that competing. But Indian parents continue to de- 
mand that these institutions exist. So the responsibility is shared 
by both the institution and parents. 

I think the off-the-reservation boarding school as it has existed 
has outlived its usefulness. And I say that recognizing there are 
many dedicated people here who care truly about children and 
who work hard with them. We can't continue to do it and af- 
fect the future, and that is for Indian people to gain some con- 
trol and power over their destiny. 

I think we have to make off-reservation schools non-existent, 
and Indian parents need to become involved with schools in their 
communities. Could we not afford them, we should have mobile 
classrooms, people who could come to communities or some 
other modification perhaps of the existing Teacher Corps. 

In terms of Indian organizations, Indian organizations have 
to be allowed the privilege of failing. They can't be asked to 
succeed. And we must get out of the way and allow them to 
both fail and succeed. And I think we are beginning to see 

Then I'll soon be out of a job. 

Commissioner Freeman. Dr. Hammerschlag, you have appar- 
ently given a great deal of thought to this, and you have done 
some writing on it. My question is: Have you made the rec- 
ommendations which you have indicated here — Have you trans- 
mitted those recommendations to the agency that perhaps may 
be able to begin doing something about it? Have you transmitted 
any of this to the Bureau of Indian Affairs? 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. And what was the response? 


Dr. Hammerschlag. They thanked me for it. 


It was done under the authorization, indeed, of the Bureau, 
and that should not be underestimated. The Bureau supported 
the study and, indeed, provided the financial assistance for me 
to conduct it, and I want to say that as part of the record, and 
received it openly. 

Being received openly at local levels has, unfortunately, no 
operational translatability in terms of who ultimately sees it or 
what is done. It becomes another yellowed sheaf of paper, I sense, 
filed in obscurity in my own bitterness. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. 

Dr. Hammerschlag. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. You may be excused. 

We are about to adjourn this session for a brief period of 
what we will call a dinner break. The hearing is now in recess 
until 7: 30 p.m. 

(Whereupon, at 5:25 p.m., the hearing was recessed, to be 
reconvened at 7:30 p.m., this date.) 

7:30 p.m. 

Commissioner Freeman. This hearing is called to order. 
We would like to call as our next witness Mr. Wesley Bonito. 
Mr. Bonito, will you be sworn ? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Wesley Bonito was sworn by Commissioner 
Freeman and testified as follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. 

Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Bonito, would you please state your name, 
tribal affiliation, and occupation for the record? 

Mr. Bonito. My name is Wesley Bonito. I am the tribal educa- 
tion coordinator and member of the tribal council. My address 
is P.O. Box 864, White River, Arizona. 

Mr. Powell. You said you are the education coordinator for 
the White Mountain Apache Tribe? Is that right? 

Mr. Bonito. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. I understand that there's a public school on your 
reservation. Is that right? 

Mr. Bonito. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Bonito, have Indians on the White Mountain 
Reservation been accorded an adequate voice in the control and 
management of the public schools located on that reservation? 

Mr. Bonito. We have the majority on the school board. 


Mr. Powell. You have the majority on the school board? 

Mr. Bonito. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Do you feel that you have an adequate voice 
in the control and management of the school ? 

Mr. Bonito. So far we are involved, and at least something is 
happening to our requests, so I feel that we have a voice in the 
school. For the record, we have three Apaches on the board. 

Mr. Powell. Out of how many people on the board ? 

Mr. Bonito. There's five. 

Mr. Powell. Thirty-five on the board? 

Mr. Bonito. No. Five. Five. 

Mr. Powell. How many tribal members are there on your 
reservation ? 

Mr. Bonito. There's about 6,500. 

Mr. Powell. 6,500? 

Mr. Bonito. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Can all those tribal members vote for members 
of the school board ? 

Mr. Bonito. If they are eligible to vote. 

Mr. Powell. Are all of them eligible to vote? 

Mr. Bonito. No. We have about 2,500 eligible voters on the 
reservation, and the rest are still — 

Mr. Powell. Is your reservation split into three different jur- 

Mr. Bonito. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Would you explain ? 

Mr. Bonito. We are divided in three counties — Apache County, 
Navajo County, and Gila County. And our public school is in the 
Navajo County, and most of our kids come from the Gila County. 

When they do bring complaints, it's hard to voice their opin- 
ion in the Navajo County because there is a line there that 
kind of blocks it. So most of the Gila County parents prefer to 
go to Payson and make their complaint over there because 
that's where the school district head is, but they like to come 
in and make their complaint to White River where the public 
school is set. We are talking with the school board now, and I 
understand that something will be done about realigning the 

Mr. Powell. There are three counties involved, Navajo 
County, Gila County, and what is the third county again ? 

Mr. Bonito. Apache County. 

Mr. Powell. And people who live in Gila County and Apache 
County are not able to participate in the management of the 
school in Navajo County? Is that correct? 

Mr. Bonito. Right. 

Mr. Powell. I see. Mr. Bonito, do Indian people have any 


voice in the direct control of employees and policy decisions of 
the BIA school system? 

Mr. Bonito. No, we serve as an advisory on the school board, 
and we have not had any direct voice in hiring or firing 
some of the people that we have in the Bureau of Indian Af- 
fairs. Most of it is done — The hiring is done over in the central 
office in Albuquerque, and we have been complaining about this. 

And also we like to see some change on who our teachers 
are on the reservation or at any school. Some of these teachers 
have been with us over the years, and to me a lot of them 
should be weeded out. But how do we do this? We have been 
complaining about it but not much has been done. 

We don't know who we get at reservation school. But we 
would like to see that changed. 

Mr. Powell. Is the situation somewhat different at the 
State level? I understand that you are a member of the Arizona 
Intertribal School Board ? 

Mr. Bonito. No, I'm not a member. I started the — I wrote 
up the proposal for the intertribal school board for the Phoenix 
area office, and that takes care of the three off-reservation schools 
and also the on-reservation BIA school. And this board at one 
time did help out in hiring the new superintendent for Phoenix 
Indian School. They had a voice in that. 

But at the local level the school board serves only as advisory, 
and it has not actually had the power to make any move of 
getting people off — the people that we want to move out, the 
teachers, that is. And if they do, what happens is — Let's say 
if they had the voice to move them, to me it's not actually 
firing the individual. Under the BIA policy or the civil service 
policy, we are just passing him on to another tribe so another 
tribe can have him. 

Mr. Powell. It doesn't get him out of the system? 

Mr. Bonito. No, he's still there, but there should be some 
system to be worked into it. I don't know if there's any evalua- 
tion done on teachers or not, but most of the evaluation is done 
on the students, but I think the administration of the school 
should be evaluated by an outside — 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Bonito, what can you tell us about the 
Johnson-O'Malley program and the effect it has had on the quality 
of education for Indians in your area ? 

Mr. Bonito. Well, I'll say that we do receive quite a bit of 
money from Johnson-O'Malley, but on the other side other Indians 
are not getting their share of it. At one school in Apache 
County. McNair High School, where we have about 150 students 
enrolled — That's a mix with non-Indians. And we have about 
89 of the local Apaches attending that school. And that school 
to this day has not received any Johnson-O'Malley. 


They have written to the State office but have been — I don't 
know if they are turned down — but they haven't received any 
money so far. But the schools in White River do get money. 

Mr. Powell. Where Johnson-O'Malley funds are received, 
has it been your experience that they generally make a differ- 
ence? Or are they used in such a way that they do not make 
a difference ? 

Mr. Bonito. I think they should make a difference, but I'm 
not closely involved with the public school board so how 
the money is spent, I haven't seen any of the — Well — I'd like to 
see a copy of their budget and also the line item, how this 
money is spent. But maybe it will surprise me if I do get it. 

Mr. Powell. Have you requested such information? 

Mr. Bonito. So far I have not, but I'm working on it because 
it's getting to be an issue. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Bonito, turning to the area of employment, 
would you comment on the employment practices of the large 
private employers near your reservation? I take it there are such 
enterprises near your reservation? Is that correct? 

Mr. Bonito. Yes. We have Southwest Lumber Mill, a private 
enterprise, which has leased land from the White Mountain 
Apache Tribe. And I worked there when I was trying to go to 
school. I feel that I was capable — I always feel I was capable 
of doing the work in one area. 

And then another time I took a test with a non-Indian group 
for a position, and I got this position, but because of who I am 
I guess, or maybe my skin made a difference, I guess, I was 
taken off this job, and to this day a lot of other Indians have 
not stepped up the ladder like they should. But one time we 
said, "Okay, Mister, we'll take this lease back if you don't comply 
with what you said in your agreement." And they said, "We'll 
put some of your Apaches in the office. We'll put some of them — 
put them in the office and put them up in front as a training for 
foreman position." 

To this day not very many have reached this level. And a lot 
of them are still in the same position. For one example, there's 
a man who worked in one position for about 27 years, and he 
is still sitting there with no promotion. 

Mr. Powell. While other people have been promoted over 
and over again during those 27 years, I take it? 

Mr. Bonito. Right. And they are still saying it. They haven't 
changed. And probably he'll just die there. 

Mr. Powell. You feel that you were not permitted to stay 
in the job to which you referred because of discrimination? Is 
that it? 

Mr. Bonito. I would say yes because of my — 

Mr. Powell. What position was that, Mr. Bonito? 


Mr. Bonito. It was a boxcar tally. See, there's — This is a 
molding part. You start at bundling where you tie lumber to- 
gether. Then you go up to trimmer and then feeder, and then 
if you know these three areas you can move up to a foreman or 
into a boxcar tally. 

And it's up to this individual to make sure everything that 
goes into a boxcar has been registered, know your numbers and 
so forth. I felt I knew this, but when I was put in that position 
I didn't last very long. 

Mr. Powell. We heard earlier testimony from Mr. Anderson 
that the contract with Southwest Lumber Company was can- 
celled by the tribe because of discrimination against Indians. 
Mr. Bonito. Timber stand. Right. Timber stand. We don't 
have any contract with them any more. They are cutting tim- 
ber off the national forest. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Bonito, to your knowledge, has the Indian 
preference doctrine — you're familiar with the Indian preference 
clause — Indian preference doctrine, are you not — 
Mr. Bonito. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. — Has that doctrine been fully implemented by 
the BIA and the Indian Health Service in preferential hiring of 
Indian people? 
Mr. Bonito. They're hired — 

Mr. Powell. Has it been effectively — has it been used? Has 
it been carried out ? Has the preference — 

Mr. Bonito. Not to its fullest, because if they are hired, they 
are hired at the lowest of the totem pole and the lowest wages. 
And it's in there. It says that, "We should help Indian people get 
a good job and good training." But this training to me has not 
helped me or helped the tribe or the other Indians to put them 
in a position where they could take over their own program. 
And there are not very many top positions held by Indian people. 
That's straight across the board. If they hold a position, it might 
be a janitor position, and they will stay there forever. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Bonito, have there been any law enforce- 
ment problems on your reservation — police problems? 

Mr. Bonito. Well, the jurisdiction of the State and Federal 
and tribe is so confusing, it bothers everybody on the reserva- 
tion. Like the highway that runs through our reservation is 
owned by the State of Arizona, and, let's say, two of us were 
following each other, an Indian and a non-Indian, and we were 
both cited for drunk driving. I go to the tribal court, and the 
other fellow goes to the outside J.P. office. And the money goes 
to somebody else. I think — 

Mr. Powell. Even if this happened on the reservation? 
Mr Bonito. Yes. 


Mr. Powell. You would not have jurisdiction over the non- 

Mr. Bonito. No. He goes off to J. P. office off the reservation. 

Then, also talking on jurisdiction, we have politicians that 
come to our reservation and run for office, and they do kind of 
pat us on the back when election day comes around, but after 
that we won't see them again, not for another 4 years. So the 
last election we talked to one of the sheriffs and asked him if 
he would deputize one of the Indians to help him out because of 
this jurisdiction problem that we have, non-Indian and Indian. 
— I don't know how it's going to come out, but I hope we will 
get an Apache deputized so he can work in all three of these 
counties that we are working with. 

Mr. Powell. Without having this cross-deputization you have 
no way of assuring that non-Indians who commit crimes on 
reservations will, in fact, be punished, do you? 

Mr. Bonito. No. We can't. We have no jurisdiction over 
non-Indians — period. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Bonito, in your opinion has the Indian Health 
Service adequately taken care of its obligation to provide health 
services to Indians on your reservation ? 

Mr. Bonito. No. It's probably because — a lot to do with the 
funding. But we have been promised just like any other Indian 
that we'll get this and that, but to this day the facilities we 
have are inadequate. Right now where we are flying most of 
our patients to Phoenix, and by the time they get to Phoenix 
probably they'll be dead. We'd like to have the facility right 
there at White River and also at Cibecue, but to this day these 
are not being met. 

Then in the record somewhere it says that White River will 
get a brand new hospital in 1965, and the 1965 hasn't come yet. 

Mr. Powell. Do the Indians on your reservation have any say 
as to what tack or what approach the Indian Health Service 
takes with respect to medical services on your reservation? 

Mr. Bonito. I didn't quite get that. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have any input into what approach the 
Indian Health Service on your reservation takes? 

Mr. Bonito. We have the Arizona Intertribal Health Board 
that helps us out, but to my knowledge it's not very effective 
because if it was I would have not been talking like this. I would 
be sitting home and being comfortable. But they are not doing 
the work they should be doing. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. No, I have no questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. No questions. 


Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much, sir. 

Mr. Bonito. Could I have another word? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Mr. Bonito. Another thing I'd like to bring out is about 
traders on the reservation. There's sort of no control over the 
price or how they sell their products to the Indians. Like let's say 
there's three or four different stores, and let's talk about a carton 
of milk: One place will sell for 50 cents, and another place 
will sell for about 45 cents. Another place will be selling for 60 
cents. I think all of these can be uniform, where all the prices are 
the same, because they all are close together. But they always 
talk about, "Well, the price is this way because of the transporta- 
tion. We have to haul it from Phoenix or other areas." But I think 
that should be controlled. 

And also some of the Indians have funds, hard-earned money, 
stashed in the trading post, and I don't know if this money — the 
interest part — is attached to the money they put in. For example, 
an individual deposits about $400 four years ago, and let's say 
today he wants to draw that money out. He will get a flat $400 
back. But the interest, I wonder, where does that go? I think we 
should look into that because this money if it receives interest, 
I think it should go back to the individual Indian. 

A lot of Indians on the reservation do not know how the laws 
work. If they understand this, probably they'll bring it out. But 
to this day this is what I have seen, because a lot of Indians don't 
take their money to the bank. They take it to the trading post. 
When he deposits his money, the money is going to be registered 
under his name, and if the interest comes in I know who is going 
to get it. The trader is going to get that. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. We will 
look into it. You may be excused. 

From the Floor: Tell him about the sawmill. 

Commissioner Freeman. The witness is excused. 

Our next witnesses are Mr. Rick St. Germaine, Mr. William 
DeHaas, and Mr. Cipriano Manuel. 

Will you remain standing and be sworn? 

(Whereupon, Messrs. Rick St. Germaine, William DeHaas, and 
Cipriano Manuel were sworn by Comissioner Freeman and testi- 
fied as follows: 






Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 
Mr. Powell. 


Mr. Powell. Would you each please state your name, tribal 
affiliation, address, and present position for the record ? 

Mr. DeHaas. My name is William DeHaas, Otoe Indian from 
Oklahoma. My present address is 438 North 23rd Street, Mesa. 
My present position is — It's a good question. I'm known at 
ASU as the Assistant Coordinator for Student Affairs. I am 
also employed half-time by the Bureau of Indian Affairs as a 
program assistant. 

Mr. St. Germaine. My name is Rick St. Germaine. I am a 
Chippewa Indian from the Courte Reservation in Wisconsin. I 
am working on my doctorate at ASU. I am the chairman of the 
Indian Student Association at Arizona State University, also 
chairman of the Indian Advisory Board at the University. 

Mr. Manuel. My name is Cipriano Manuel. I am a member of 
the Papago tribe. My address is 1115 South Lebanon Street, and 
I am their "token Indian" at Phoenix College. 

Mr. Powell. You have some kind of position at Phoenix 
College. What is it? 

Mr. Manuel. Several of them. And I have yet to really be 
clear on it. 

Mr. Powell. What are your responsibilities at Phoenix 

Mr. Manuel. I work with the Indian students. 

Mr. Powell. Towards what end? What kind of work do you 
do with Indian students ? 

Mr. Manuel. It has been so varied that I — Should I name 
all of — I go to — If they get arrested, I go with them to court. 
If their funds are not forthcoming, I try to work to get their 
grants. And if there's problems in the home, I try to work with 
their problems there, too. 

Mr. Powell. Are there other kinds of problems that Indian 
students at Phoenix College have that you haven't described? 
What are the range of problems? Is that a good sense of the 
range of problems that Indian students have at Phoenix College? 

Mr. Manuel. I don't think I — You know, I haven't been there 
long. I have only been there 30 days. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. St. Germaine or Mr. DeHaas, would you 
care to comment on the deficiencies in elementary and secondary 
education which Indians receive which makes them ill-prepared 
for higher education ? 

Mr. DeHaas. We have found at Arizona State that a lot of the 
students graduating from reservation high schools have an 
educational gap, that they are not really at the same level as the 
non-Indian student, and this must in some way be made up at the 
school through tutorial assistance and additional counseling and 

We haven't developed any studies to show, what percentage 


of students are doing the worst, Bureau boarding school students 
or public school students, but there is a definite trend in fresh- 
man failures at a school like Arizona State, and it all points to a 
gap in their educational achievement to that point. 
Mr. Powell. Mr. St. Germaine? 

Mr. St. Germaine. The Indian students at Arizona State 
University, as an ethnic group, have the largest dropout rate of 
any ethnic minority — or any group on the campus. The dropout 
rate at Arizona State University for Indians is 45.7 percent, tak- 
ing into consideration the year 1971 through '72. 

In addition to this, we had the lowest grade point average of 
any other ethnic group. On a 4-point scale, our overall grade 
point average was 1.38. This might be seen as, you know, 
the basis for a high dropout rate. 

Now, the school average for dropouts is approximately 30 

In addition to this, our students are faced with a number of not 
only social adjustment problems when they get to the university 
but they also have cultural problems that the counselors are very 
ill-equipped to handle. Counselors are not adequately trained in 
order to handle the special and unique problems that our 
Indian students are having. 

And, what's more, the university is making no attempts to 
provide these services. 

After we have demonstrated over there and picketed the 
school, we got some action out of them. They recognized an 
Indian advisory board composed of Indian students that was 
elected by the student body, the Indian student body. 

Mr. Powell. How long has that been in existence ? 

Mr. St. Germaine. That has been in existence since May of 
this year, at which time we presented a number of recommenda- 
tions to the school. We presented them in letter form, also in 
recommendation form, you know, that was stipulated by the 
office of the dean of students, in which we have outlined a number 
of actions that we feel must be taken on the basis of studies 
that we have been able to do, you know, to make over the year. 

Mr. Powell. You have this petition or however you character- 
ize it? Can we have a copy? 

Mr. St. Germaine. Yes, I have one copy. It's called the "Rec- 
ommendations from A.S.U. Indian Advisory Board to the Office 
of Student Affairs," dated October 13, 1972, in which we outline 
15 steps that must be taken by the university in order to bring 
up Indian students to a training and a social — in which, you 
know, they are going to be able to survive in the school. 

There are separate instances that we can show that the 
school is, in effect, promoting an institutional racism of sorts. 


Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, can we make that petition a 
part of the record ? 
Commissioner Freeman. It will be received. 
(Whereupon, the document referred to was marked as Ex- 
hibit No. 9 and received in evidence.) 

Mr. St. Germaine. I presented on August 2 — make that 
August 4, 1972 — I presented a letter to the vice president of 
student affairs, the person that we advise through our advisory 
board. I presented him a list of recommendations that our 
Indian advisory board made. At that time we had made a study 
of the needs for an adjustment in the survival skills course for 
Indian students, entering freshmen and sophomores and juniors. 

We felt, of course, through the study, that there were specific 
needs that Indian students have when they enter an institution 
such as Arizona State University where the total school popula- 
tion is approximately 30,000. We presented this recommendation. 
The vice president at that time assured us that he would look into 
this matter. 

I'm also serving as a member of the Special Services Advisory 
Board, and there are statistics available to me, information that 
is available to me that is strictly confidential, is not open to the 
public. I found out through this board that, in the meantime, 
the vice president had instituted another similar course — it's 
called the survival skills course — at the university in which out 
of 36 members of the class 33 were university football players. 
This survival skills course had been kept secret from the 
public. This is on record. I have documents to show this right 
here in the minutes of the Special Services Advisory Board 
meeting, and it's a matter of record that while we were appeal- 
ing to the president the special needs for this course — We 
showed them the way that this course could be provided at a 
very minimal cost, done on a voluntary nature by graduate stu- 
dents such as myself who have master's degrees and who have 
teacher certificates and other things. Yet these types of things 
are suppressed at our university. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. DeHaas, you mentioned that you were 
coordinator of student affairs at Arizona State University. What 
are your responsibilities in connection with that position? 

Mr. DeHaas. This is a half-time position. It's called assistant 
coordinator of student affairs. The responsibilities, as outlined 
by Dean Shell, have been to work in counseling and advisement 
of Indian students, working directly — 

Mr. Powell. You work directly with Indian students? 
Mr. DeHaas. Yes, directly with only Indian students under 
Dean Shell's supervision. 

Mr. Powell. What is the total student population, Mr. DeHaas, 
at Arizona State University? 


Mr. DeHaas. We have around 270 students estimated. 

Mr. Powell. 270 Indian students is that? 

Mr. DeHaas. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. What is the total student population? 

Mr. DeHaas. Total student population is around 27,000 or 
28,000 students. 

Mr. Powell. 270 out of 27,000— about 1 percent? 

Mr. DeHaas. Less than 1 percent. 

Mr. Powell. In your opinion, Mr. DeHaas, is the university 
making a good faith effort to recruit more Indian students? 

Mr. DeHaas. No, I don't believe so. We have just begun to 
talk about recruitment at Arizona State. Before, there were many 
efforts at recruitment, but they were not real efforts. They were 
haphazard and often conflicting and carried on as more of a 
token gesture. 

Mr. Powell. Do Indians have any input into these recruitment 
efforts to which you are referring? 

Mr. DeHaas. Have Indians — 

Mr. Powell. Do Indians have any input? Are their views 

Mr. DeHaas. No. Until this year the only input that Indians 
had in recruitment at Arizona State was one position in the 
ASU student senate that went on recruitment to various res- 
ervations. This one individual made recruitment trips. But 
there wasn't enough funding, and there wasn't enough time for 
a student to adequately do any kind of serious recruiting. 

Mr. Powell. What about faculties? Is there any serious 
effort — Are there many Indian faculty members at either of 
your institutions? 

Mr. St. Germaine. I have statistics — 

Mr. DeHaas. Mr. St. Germaine has the statistics on em- 

Mr. St. Germaine. According to a minority report that was 
required, dated March 5, 1972, which we must recognize was the 
last academic year, spring of 1972, the total employment by the 
establishment of Arizona State University for the year 1971-72 
was 5,358, of which 17 were Indians. Roughly, this is three- 
tenths of 1 percent of the total employment positions available 
to Indian people. 

The majority of those positions again were semi- or unskilled 
laborers and operatives. We had two professionals employed who 
were identified as American Indians. We had one person identi- 
fied as an official who was at that time the coordinator of the 
Upward Bound program for the Indian Division. 

Mr. Powell. Would either of you, Mr. DeHaas or you, Mr. 
St. Germaine, describe the Bureau of Indian Affairs' program for 
providing scholarships to Indian students and tell us how in your 


opinion the BIA and the colleges could ameliorate the financial 
problems of Indian students? 

Mr. DeHaas. The basic problem with the BIA's relationship 
with colleges is that all too often the colleges rely on the BIA 
grant as a student resource when in the Federal guidelines it is 
a matching source for EOG. I understand this is the last year for 

But we must take a look at how the new basic opportunity 
grant is going to be instituted, and if it is going to be instituted 
on the same lines as the EOG, then the Bureau of Indian Affairs 
will have to come up with the bulk of the money to finance 
Indian students through college. 

What this does is deprive other qualified Indian students from 
receiving financial assistance because of the BIA having limited 
resources. With the 10 percent cutback across the board of Fed- 
eral agencies, this is also going to hit very hard in higher educa- 
tion budgets, so the Bureau is going to be even more restricted 
in the number of grants that they are going to be able to give 

There has to be some kind of reevaluation of the responsibili- 
ties of financial aid officers at universities in order to insure that 
Indian students get a fair share of the EOG and national de- 
fense loans monies and to refrain from considering the BIA 
grant as a student resource and call it a matching source as 
spelled out in the HEW guidelines. 

Mr. Powell. In this connection, what kind of peculiar prob- 
lems do Indian students who want to go on to higher education — 
What kind of peculiar financial problems do they have? 

Mr. DeHaas. They have a variety of problems. For the most 
part, the budgets that are approved are, you might say, in- 
flexible. They go on certain guidelines which are established by 
norms for every college. And we found that Indian students have 
a need for a little bit larger budget than the average student for 
one reason or another — perhaps to engage a tutor in a special- 
ized program where it's often difficult to find somebody through 
the tutorial pool at the school, especially like in the college of 

Sometimes students feel an obligation to help out at home be- 
cause some of their younger brothers and sisters are going with- 
out, and some of the money that they receive on the grant they 
secretly send back home. So they are constantly in a financial 
bind. There are very few students at Arizona State who are 
adequately funded, based on the budget that is usually deter- 
mined at the college. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. With respect to the survival skills course 


for adjustment, did I understand you, Mr. St. Germaine, to say 
that this survival skills course concept for the Indians to keep 
them in the university and assist in their adjustment at certain 
levels — that it was submitted by your group, and instead of 
being adopted and used for your group as suggested by you 
was used instead for 33 football players? Did I understand you 

Mr. St. Germaine. No, we didn't present the outline or the 
program. Instead, what they had in mind was a program of 
their own in which, you know, they ran 33 football players 
through their program. This program was held in secrecy until 
just several weeks ago. 

Commissioner Ruiz. This was another program unrelated to 
yours, but you had submitted one to which no attention had been 
Mr. St. Germaine. Correct. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And up until this moment what has hap- 
pened to the one you submitted ? 

Mr. St. Germaine. Nothing. We have been very adamant in 
outlining our needs. We have showed them — 

Commissioner Ruiz. That particular course — Do you have that 
there — 
Mr. St. Germaine. Yes, I do. 

Commissioner Ruiz. — Your concept that you submitted? 
Mr. St. Germaine. Yes. I have a study that was made on the 
need for this course. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Madam Chairman, may I suggest that 
that be made a part of the record ? 
Commissioner Freeman. It will be received. 
(Whereupon, the document referred to was marked as Ex- 
hibit No. 10 and received in evidence.) 

Commissioner Freeman. There can be no comments made 
from the audience. There will be members of staff who are avail- 
able to help those persons who are raising their hands to appear 
at the unscheduled portion of the testimony tomorrow after- 
noon, which will be between 5: 30 and 7: 30. 

Mr. Manuel, are there any special orientation programs for 
Indian students at Phoenix College? 
Mr. Manuel. No, there are not. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you state your opinion as to 
the need for such a program ? 

Mr. Manuel. Yes, there is a definite need for such a pro- 
gram. There is a definite need for that kind of service in almost 
all colleges, at least the ones that I have ever had any experi- 
ences with. So it is not peculiar to Phoenix College. 

I feel that there should be exceptions made, especially for 
Indian students when they enroll in colleges. But I have known, 


when I have gone through that, nobody ever really counseled 
with me or provided me assistance on what my aptitude called 
for, for certain courses that I could survive in. I have had to just 
flounder around. 

This thing still exists at Phoenix College, and I feel that is 
one of the many factors in the high dropout rate or the dis- 
couragement among students or the failures of the Indian students. 

Commissioner Freeman. And it is your testimony that this 
problem is true in the other colleges in this State, in addition 
to Phoenix College ? 

Mr. Manuel. I feel that way, because I have, you know — This 
is based on my own personal experiences. 

Commissioner Freeman. We have heard earlier testimony 
concerning the insensitivity of some of the teachers in schools, 
and also concerning the fact that there are a limited number of 
Indians who are trained as teachers. 

Do you believe that there should be — this question is directed 
to each of you — any special training for the Indian who wishes 
to go into the teaching field? And do you have suggestions as 
to what the colleges should be asked to do by, perhaps, the Office 
of Education or any other appropriate agency of HEW, to 
bring this about? 

Mr. St. Germaine. I have some information — we have noticed 
over at Arizona State University — that is rather startling. I 
have outlined six programs that are available right now. 

But I'd first like to answer your question by saying, yes, there 
are certainly special programs that Indian people need, for ex- 
ample, in the State of Arizona, in which Indian people them- 
selves should be trained as professional teachers and administra- 
tors in all facets of professional and business life so that they 
can return to Indian communities in the cities and on reserva- 
tions; in which they can provide the leadership that is very vital 
to Indian growth today. 

But getting back to the six programs that are now very en- 
trenched over at Arizona State University, I will name them: 

We have the Center for Indian Education. 

We have the Institute for Library Media. 

We have the Indian Leadership Program. 

The Career Opportunities Program. 

The Indian Law Program. 

And the Educational Opportunities Program. 

Starting with the Center for Indian Education — it was de- 
veloped and the purpose behind that — it was designed to train 
teachers of Indian children. It's as simple as that. 

Now, the whole purpose of the program in training these 
teachers for Indian children is to make available the skills and 
the information that teachers need, that are required in order 


to handle Indian children across the country. The program is 
directed by, if I may, an Anglo. The assistant director is part 
Omaha. There are three Anglo research assistants. And there is 
one research assistant who is part Kiowa. The entire makeup 
of that program as far as students enrolled in the courses that 
are offered through the Center for Indian Education, 85 percent 
of which are non-Indian — So it seems to us that what they are 
doing is instituting a system whereby they are training white 
teachers for Indian children. 

We have approached them a number of times with pleas to 
develop an advisory board in the area of curriculum, in program 
design, composed of Indian leaders throughout Arizona represent- 
ing educational boards on reservations, certainly other Indian 
educational leaders, professional Indians throughout the State, 
as well as students. They have made no attempts. In fact, they 
have rejected our offer of this advisory board. 

The Institute for Library Media was funded by the Bureau 
of Indian Affairs and Office of Education. Last year they were 
having very many problems. They had an almost total dropout 
of 13 students. This year they have utilized the services of the 
Indian Advisory Board, and we were very successful as far as 
recruiting the high-level student who is now experiencing suc- 
cess in this program, and they have directed much of their 
energies to Indian types of things in their program, and we are 
finding that they are very successful now. 

The Indian Leadership Program was funded by the Bureau 
of Indian Affairs and Office of Education. The Arizona State 
University was one component of four programs that were insti- 
tuted at Harvard University, at Penn State, at Minnesota, and 
ASU. The universities developed school administration programs, 
graduate programs in school administration. This was the orig- 
inal design of the proposal in Washington, D.C., constructed 
by Dr. Jim Wilson, who was at that time the director of the 
Indian Desk, OEO. The component that arrived at Arizona 
State University did not get into the department of school ad- 
ministration. Rather, it was directed into the department of 
elementary education. The students who were recruited under 
the promise that they were going to receive graduate degrees 
in school administration arrived here and found out they were 
now going to be training for elementary education degrees. 

It's kind of worthy to note that Jim Wilson, who is the 
author of this program, received his doctorate degree at Arizona 
State University. I'm just making this information known to 
the Commission. He received his doctorate degree, and the chair- 
man of his committee, his graduate committee, was Dr. O'Beirne 
who in turn became the director of this component at Arizona 
State University — of the elementary education component. 


Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs, do you have any ques- 
tions ? 

Mr. Buggs. Just one question following Commissioner Ruiz's 

Mr. St. Germaine, when this survival skills course — When you 
discovered that it had been instituted for essentially athletes, 
did you make any representation to the administration then? 

Mr. St. Germaine. Yes. It's on record in the minutes of a 
certain Special Services Advisory Board meeting. I made it 
known to the Special Services Advisory Board meeting that we 
were indeed shocked that this other course was conducted in 
secrecy and we were not — you know — we were not informed 
that our course was not acceptable by the university. 

Mr. Buggs. And what answer did you get then ? 

Mr. St. Germaine. I received none. 

Mr. Buggs. How long ago was that? 

Mr. St. Germaine. This was perhaps a month ago. 

Mr. Buggs. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. You may be 

The next subject area about which we will receive testimony 
is the administration of justice. We will now call our first wit- 
nesses on the subject. They will be Reverend John Fife, Mr. 
Michael Wilson, and Mr. Wallace Baker. 

Will you remain standing to be sworn, please? 

(Whereupon, Reverend John Fife, Mr. Michael Wilson, and 
Mr. Wallace Baker were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and 
testified as follows: ) 







Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Beginning with the gentleman on my left, would 
you each please state your name, address, and occupation for 
the record ? 

Mr. Baker. My name is Wallace J. Baker, Jr. My address is 
8617 North 12th Avenue, Phoenix. I am an attorney-at-law 
and magistrate of the city of Phoenix City Court. 

Reverend Fife. My name is John Fife. I am pastor of South- 
side United Presbyterian Church in Tucson. My address in Tucson 
is 305 West 23rd Street. 

Mr. Wilson. My name is Mike Wilson, Papago, 580 South Main 


Avenue, city of Tucson. I am the acting director of the Papago 
Cultural Research and Halfway House. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Fife, how long have you lived in Tucson? 

Reverend Fife. Three years in Tucson, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Wilson, how long have you lived in Tucson? 

Mr. Wilson. Approximately 10 to 12 years. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Baker, I understand that you have been very 
active representing Indians in the Phoenix area and that you 
have had substantial background as a law professor and as an 
attorney-at-law in Cleveland. Is that correct? 

Mr. Baker. Yes, that's correct, sir. I spent 7 years teaching 
at the University of Arizona College of Law; active in the field 
of Indian law, and was a lecturer on the Indian Civil Rights Act 
once it was adopted; have been a lecturer at the National Indian 
Police Academy while at the university and while here in Phoe- 
nix; and after leaving the teaching profession and entering 
private practice here in Phoenix I have represented, I suppose, 
hundreds of Indians as a private attorney. I wanted to carry 
that one step further and became a part-time magistrate of the 
City of Phoenix Court, I think I can explain that later. 

Mr. Powell. What are your responsibilities as a part-time 
magistrate ? 

Mr. Baker. Well, the City Court has a tremendous caseload. 
We have full-time magistrates, and to help, particularly with 
the DWI cases, we have five or six part-time magistrates who 
try to devote one or two days a week to the court system. As I 
say, we usually, mainly, try DWI jury trials and handle the 
regular traffic load. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Baker, in your opinion, what are the major 
legal problems which Indians face outside of the area of the 
administration of justice? 

Mr. Baker. Well, as you know, they are legion. May I just 
start with a preface to that problem ? 

Mr. Powell. Please do. 

Mr. Baker. The city of Phoenix has a very fine Legal Aid 
Society, but, unfortunately, it is understaffed and the demand 
is great. For that reason many of the Indian clients who have 
civil problems are unable to get the attention they really need 
from Legal Aid. 

We also have a very fine legal reference service in Phoenix 
where an individual can go to the bar association and request 
the services of a private lawyer, but, unfortunately, many of the 
Indians are totally unaware that this service is available. 

As a consequence — And I might add, incidentally, to my knowl- 
edge we have no Indian lawyers in the city of Phoenix in the 
private practice of law and very, very few in the entire State. 

So it comes down really to either not getting representation 


or there are a few like myself who try their best to take care of 
as many Indian people as possible, along with our regular prac- 
tice, and I probably take care of as many or more than anyone. 

But specifically on the problems, now, I don't think they are 
any different than the problems of the general economic level 
or educational achievement of other people. They do fall into 
rather definite classifications, however. Because of the economic 
level of many of the urban Indians, they are plagued with 
credit problems. The finance companies in Phoenix I think over- 
extend a great many of the Indians, not necessarily Indians, but 
people of that economic level, and as a consequence they have 
been able to borrow many, many times more than their income 
would justify. 

And with that, of course, the only solution is bankruptcy. So 
they go from the loan companies through the bankruptcy court. 

They have a great many problems with the natural tendency 
to share wealth. When one of the urban Indians gets a good job 
and is making money, the tendency is to send a good deal of that 
money home, or, if his relatives come to Phoenix, to financially 
sustain the relatives. In many cases this results in co-signing 
notes. So they are not only taking out loans for themselves but 
they are co-signing for relatives and friends on the basis of their 
employment, and this turns out to be disastrous. 

They have the normal problems with door-to-door salesmen. 

And then, of course, domestic relations. 

But I think probably the biggest problems are in the field of 
credit and in the field of, oh, perhaps, automobiles, generally 
revolving around automobiles; purchasing automobiles, having 
them repossessed, and the problems that go with that. 

Mr. Powell. I take it that in the course of your representation 
of a large number of Indians you have had contact with the 
Phoenix Police Department? Is that correct? 

Mr. Baker. Yes, I certainly have. 

Mr. Powell. For what offenses are Indians most frequently 
arrested in the Phoenix area, Mr. Baker? 

Mr. Baker. Well, I suppose far and away the greatest num- 
ber of arrests are for the offense of what is now called public 
intoxication. It used to be drunk and disorderly until recently. 
So that far and away overshadows everything else. 

There are some arrests for drinking from open containers. 

There are some for vagrancy, although I think we have pretty 
well put a stop to that type of arrest. 

There are very few Indian arrests for serious crimes. Very few. 

Mr. Powell. To what do you attribute such a high rate of 
arrest for intoxication? Does this generally occur in a particular 
part of the city ? 

Mr. Baker. It certainly does. It occurs in the — what is called 


the "Deuce area" or the downtown area. I don't think it can be 
in any way said that the police are singling out Indians, al- 
though of all of the females that are arrested in Phoenix, 50 per- 
cent are Indian, and of all the males that are arrested in Phoenix, 
about 25 percent are Indian. Whether this is the cause or the 
effect I don't know, but the statistics are fairly accurate. 

Why are they arrested? I think the major reason is that the 
Indians generally are of an economic level that they can't afford 
memberships in country clubs or other private places, and as a 
result they tend to congregate in the downtown bars, and after 
they have been drinking for a while they come out and the police 
are standing right there with the wagon, and they just go from 
the bar to the wagon to the police station. 

As to why they are arrested, they are obviously intoxicated. 
What leads to that is a whole other matter. 

Mr. Powell. What kind of facilities are they generally taken 
to when they are arrested ? 

Mr. Baker. Well, the person who is picked up on the street 
for public intoxication is taken to the downtown station, and 
one of two things happen: If he is not terribly intoxicated, he 
may be released to a relative or to his wife if they will come 
down and get him; barring that, he is put in the drunk tank, 
holding tank, for the night, and in the morning he is brought 
down before one of our magistrates for what is called jail court. 

Now, not too long ago, before I was on the bench, I represented 
a number of these people who were being charged in city court. 
And it got to the point where I finally had to bring — in my own 
conscience — had to bring a habeas corpus action for an Indian 
woman who had been arrested, through that time, 95 times for 
drunk and disorderly. And this was in the period of her lifetime 
in Phoenix. The treatment that was accorded the intoxicated 
Indian at that point I felt was just unconscionable. 

As a result of that case, after we spent 3 full days in court 
with the chief of police, who was a very fine and dedicated man, 
and as a result of that hearing — which I lost, incidentally — the 
court held that intoxication — not intoxication — that alcoholism 
was not a disease under our classification of disease in Arizona — 
the police chief was moved to put pads in the drunk tank so 
that the people who had to spend the night there were no longer 
forced to sleep on the cold concrete. That I thought was a victory. 

They decided to try and improve the rabbit tank out in the 
compound. Out there the Indian for whom I was complaining had 
to sleep on the floor on a mattress, although he had arrested TB. 

And they have now ordered bunks for the holding tanks out 

So things are really improving. They are trying to improve, 
but there is a terrible lack of money. 


Mr. Powell. Did you say the judge held alcoholism is not 
a disease? 

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. And what was the effect of that holding? 

Mr. Baker. Well, the effect of that holding was that Mrs. Cook 
had to remain in city jail. And I have the opinion of the court — 

Mr. Powell. But you characterized that as a victory, I thought. 

Mr. Baker. Well, no, not at all. 

Mr. Powell. I see. 

Mr. Baker. But as a result of that hearing, conditions were 
greatly improved in the city jail. 

Mr. Powell. I see. 

Mr. Baker. That, in effect, was our victory resulting from the 
bringing of the suit. Incidentally, this condition won't last much 
longer, because in 1974 alcoholism will be recognized as a disease, 
and people who are arrested for public intoxication will be 
treated as having a disease and will no longer be arrested and 
treated as criminals. 

Mr. Powell. That's a result of some legislative provision ? 

Mr. Baker. Yes, finally that is a legislative decision, yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. What steps do you think should be taken to im- 
prove the conditions of Maricopa County jail, Mr. Baker? 

Mr. Baker. I think Chief Wetzel is doing everything he pos- 
sibly can with the financial limitations he has to improve the 
conditions of the jail. What they desperately need, of course, is 
a new jail. But they have improved the two facilities that Indians 
find themselves in most — that is, the drunk tank and the com- 
pound — and, other than a completely new facility, I'm just un- 
aware of what could be done to improve the position of the 
prisoner — physically, that is. 

Mr. Powell. Thank you very much, Mr. Baker. 

Reverend Fife, in your capacity as minister of the Southside 
United Presbyterian Church, are various problems facing the 
South Tucson Indian community brought to your attention ? 

Reverend Fife. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. What percentage of your congregation is Indian, 
Reverend Fife ? 

Reverend Fife. Approximately a quarter — 25 percent. 

Mr. Powell. What kind of problems have you found Indians 
in your congregation have? What kind of problems do they en- 
counter ? 

Reverend Fife. The problems range across the whole spectrum 
of topics — health care, administration of justice, education, eco- 
nomic problems. You can just about run the spectrum. We live 
in a poverty community. All the problems are indigenous to that 
sort of thing. 

Mr. Powell. Thank you. 


Mr. Wilson, you are a member of the South Tucson Indian 
Center Board of Directors, are you not? 

Mr. Wilson. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Powell. How long have you been affiliated with this cen- 
ter, Mr. Wilson ? 

Mr. Wilson. Approximately since 1964, but I became a mem- 
ber of the board just this past April. 

Mr. Powell. We have heard something of the Center's func- 
tions in earlier testimony; they deal with community problems, 
problems of Indians in the community. Mr. Wilson, would you 
please describe some of the law enforcement problems facing 
Indians in the South Tucson area? 

Mr. Wilson. Before I start that, I just have a couple of com- 
ments to make concerning this body. The American Indians that 
have come today and that have testified so far, have come in 
good faith believing that the American judicial system of which 
this body is a representative is sensitive — 

Mr. Powell. We are not a judicial body, Mr. Wilson. We are 
not a judicial body. 

Please continue. 

Mr. Wilson. Well, you are representative of the Justice De- 
partment, are you not? 

Mr. Powell. No, we are not representative of the Justice De- 

May I explain who we are and what our function is ? 

Mr. Wilson. Yes, please. 

Mr. Powell. The United States Commission on Civil Rights 
is a fact-finding commission. Its members are appointed by the 
President, confirmed by the Senate. We are a rather unique 
organization. I suppose that the closest thing that you could 
characterize us is a legislative — It's not really legislative, but 
it's part of the legislative function. We are engaged in fact- 
finding. Once we find those facts, we will report our findings and 
make our recommendations to the President, but, more impor- 
tantly, Congress. 

As a result of our recommendations, Congress in its wisdom, 
might see fit to enact legislation which we recommend. As a 
result of our recommendations, the President might see fit to 
issue executive orders. He might see fit to change policies within 
the confines of the law requiring cabinet members to carry out 
their programs differently. 

So in that connection we are not a judicial body. We are 
not even — We don't even have the power of legislation. We do 
have the power of shedding light on problems and making rec- 
ommendations about people's problems. 

It's in that connection that we are here now, and if you have 
some comments on that — 


Mr. Wilson. Yes, I do, and, as I say, in good faith we come, 
but I think after so many centuries of hearing promises and 
recommendations from the Federal Government, of which this 
body is a representative, I think it's the consensus of the Amer- 
ican Indians that we don't have a — 

Mr. Powell. You speak for all the American Indians ? 

Mr. Wilson. No, I don't. 

Mr. Powell. All right. 

Mr. Wilson. Well, personally, I do not have faith in this body. 
I think that I would like to have faith that this body has good 
intentions to bring about social changes, but it's been my experi- 
ence just this past summer that my faith in the American ju- 
dicial system was greatly shattered, and I come to this hearing 
very dejected and somewhat bitter because of my past experience, 
specifically concerning the case of the death of an Indian brother 
by the name of Philip Celaya. 

And since July 1, the Papago Cultural Research and Halfway 
House, we have just been given the run-around. We have gone 
to court. We were told that the Justice Department came in, in- 
vestigated. We were told the FBI came in, investigated. But so 
far we haven't — They haven't come directly to us except for, 
you know, this meeting tonight. 

But since July 1 it's as if the death of Philip Celaya has been 
a very casual occurrence. 

Mr. Powell. You don't think the circumstances surrounding 
his death were adequately investigated? Is that it? 

Mr. Wilson. Exactly. I don't intend to be arrogant before this 
body. It just is my arrogance is born out of frustration. I think 
such frustration or desperation is conducive to demonstrations, 
to sit-ins, to occupations of BIA facilities. 

As I said, in good faith I would like to believe that this body 
is going to initiate some type of social change via judicial change. 

Mr. Powell. I'm sure that the Commissioners are certainly 
going to try. Whether they are going to be successful or not I 
don't think anyone can predict the future. But in the past the 
recommendations of this Commission have, on balance, been im- 
plemented. Some 75 percent of, oh, I'd say over 100 recommenda- 
tions or more have been implemented. All that we can do is 
do our best. That's why we are here. 

Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Powell. You wanted to speak to the law enforcement 
problems of the South Tucson area? 

Mr. Wilson. Well, South Tucson and also it's bigger than just 
South Tucson. It's particularly the Pima County sheriff's depart- 
ment. South Tucson is a very small city within a city, within 
the city of Tucson. Tucson is the capital of the county of Pima. 


Mr. Powell. You want to speak to the broader problems of 
the county? Is that it? 

Mr. Wilson. I think it would be better to attack it there 
because in South Tucson there is just a small percentage of 
Papagos, you see, in comparison to the whole county. 

Mr. Powell. In your view, what are some of the problems 
which occur? 

Mr. Wilson. Specifically, such as the Pima County — the deputy 
sheriffs in Ajo deliberately intimidating the Papagos in Ajo fol- 
lowing the death of Philip Celaya. 

On the 1st of July, a friend and I drove directly to Ajo. We 
drove directly to the Pima County substation. We spoke to the 
county investigators. They were very diplomatic and very cor- 
dially said, "Yes, come on in. We'll discuss it." 

And we were told that the death of Philip Celaya was just a 
very cut and dried case, that Philip resisted arrest, drew the 
deputy sheriff's pistol, that there was an exchange of fire, and 
that Philip was unfortunately the one to die. 

The way that the investigator described it was that it was 
just a very cut and dried case and that he hoped that the two 
of us would not go back to Tucson, you know, and create trouble. 

So from there we went and we spoke to some of the witnesses, 
to the family, and we came up with opposite conclusions sur- 
rounding the circumstances that led up to the death of Philip 

So the following day we drove back to Tucson. We started a 
meeting to plan some type of protest. I think it's the feeling of the 
sheriff's department that Papago Indians are docile, that they are 
subservient. I think this is one of the myths of the white men — 
is that Indians, you know — that because they don't resist it's just 
that they are subservient. Anyway, we dragged the thing on for 
about a month, but to no avail. We were repeatedly defeated in 
the courts. And — That's all. 

Mr. Powell. Well, there is — at least there was — a member 
of the Civil Rights Division, Department of Justice, here earlier. 
I don't now see him. Is he here ? 

(No response.) 

But, in any event, the one thing that the Commission can do 
about this matter which I see is of such concern to you and other 
members of the Indian community is that we can refer the 
matter to the Department of Justice and request that it make 
an investigation. And, I don't know — I'm not sufficiently familiar 
with the details of the extent of what investigations have been 
made before — I do understand that State investigations were 

Mr. Wilson. The thing is that our body — you know, the Pima 
County Police Department — they conducted their own investiga- 


tion, which to the Papago Cultural Research and Halfway House 
constitutes a conflict of interest — one body investigating itself. 

Mr. Powell. Has there been a Department of Justice investi- 
gation of the matter ? 

Mr. Wilson. I think there has been, yes, but it took the 
NAACP — They tried to help us, and they wrote to the office of 
the State Attorney General requesting that his office commis- 
sion a separate investigation, and the State Attorney General 
replied that he felt that Pima County was very capable of con- 
ducting an impartial and fair investigation, which to us at the 
State level, that was a — 

Mr. Powell. We are going to have the Attorney General here 
tomorrow. We will have an opportunity to inquire of him about 
this matter. 

Mr. Wilson. On one more point, if I may — it's paramount 
concerning this case — is that we got to this grand jury of one 
it's called, and the county pathologist who performed the autopsy 
was asked if a paraffin test — well, the paraffin mold of the vic- 
tim's hand had been taken. This was very important because 
the deputy sheriffs that killed Philip Celaya, they based their 
shooting on a strictly defensive motive, that they were returning 
fire, and, therefore, this was the basis for the justifiable homicide 
ruling, and so the county pathologist replied that, yes, the paraf- 
fin mold, it had been taken of the victim's hand. And so the 
county pathologist was asked if the test had been conducted yet. 
And at that point the Pima County — the chief criminal attorney 
for Pima County — replied that the paraffin test was not taken 
because it was too expensive, to the amount of $2,000, which to 
us was, you know, justice is too expensive. 

It's somewhat ridiculous for the chief criminal attorney to tell 
us that, but we were very — We were trying to fight this prac- 
tically by ourself, but we weren't that familiar with the legal- 
ities involved, you know, $2,000 is a lot of money. And, see, if the 
chief criminal attorney for Pima County says it's too expensive 
to conduct, you know — We were ignorant enough to believe him. 

And the most important thing is that Phil's death was ruled 
justifiable homicide because the deputy said that Philip had fired 
the pistol first. You see, a pistol — If Philip had shot the pistol 
first, there would be chemical traces, you see, on his arm. And 
so this paraffin — The mold was taken, he said, the firing arm. 
But it got as far as that grand jury investigation and the county 
pathologist said that, no, it was not taken because the Pima 
County attorney's office had not requested it to be taken. 

Mr. Powell. Thank you very much. Very interesting state- 

Mr. Fife, speaking now about the problems, law enforcement 


problems, in South Tucson — this is going to be my last question 
before I turn it over to the Commissioners — but just for the pur- 
pose of trying to get some of that into the record, what are the 
problems? What are the kinds of law enforcement problems? 

Reverend Fife. Well, Mike and a group of young men last 
year who did some research in the courts in South Tucson, found 
that Indians were being arrested and charged in that municipal- 
ity at a rate approximately four to five times their population 

At that time, the South Tucson municipality had the practice 
of employing prisoners to collect their garbage. The prisoners 
were used as labor gangs on the garbage trucks to collect municipal 

Mr. Powell. Was this prisoners in general or just Indian 

Reverend Fife. Well, they were prisoners in general, but as it 
turned out, no one ever saw anybody but Indians working those 
garbage trucks. No Mexican Americans, or blacks, or Anglos 
were ever seen working those garbage trucks. They were always 

The allegations in the community were — this is very hard to 
substantiate — but the allegations in the community were that 
there was probably a quota system operating where the garbage 
trucks had to be manned so that so many people had to be picked 
up on drunk and disorderly in order to man the garbage trucks. 

You know, the problems are almost legion. 

Allegations come to my attention constantly of Indian young 
people being picked up when they are in altercations with peo- 
ple of any other racial minority groups, and it's only the Indian 
young people who are arrested. The other young people are let go. 

You have to understand the municipality of South Tucson. It 
covers a one square mile area, and in that one square mile area 
there are, I believe, 54 bars. So we have a number of problems 
unique to the municipality there which present a lot of problems 
unique to law enforcement. 

Mr. Powell. Are Indians typically represented by counsel 
when they are arrested ? 

Reverend Fife. No, no, not at all. They are not represented on 
the police force. As a matter of fact, no residents of that mu- 
nicipality are represented on that police force in any great num- 
bers. The police chief doesn't even live in town. Other members 
of the police force don't live in the municipality. The town man- 
ager doesn't live in the municipality. So you can see we have 
some unique problems there in terms of law enforcement. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Wilson, I just want to reassure 
you that your testimony concerning the Celaya shooting contains 


some very serious allegations that raise questions about whether 
Federal law was violated. We will ask that that portion of the 
transcript relating to your statement be transmitted immedi- 
ately to the Justice Department with a request for a report. 

Mr. Baker, I would like to ask you several questions, especially 
since you are a lawyer. 

You have used the phrase "drunk tank," and I wonder if you 
will describe that a little bit more for me. 

Mr. Baker. Well, I think every jail that I am familiar with has 
one big room in which all the people picked up for intoxication 
are placed until they are brought before the magistrate in the 
morning. It's rather degrading. Actually, it's a rather degrad- 
ing experience. 

And they are held in this one big room until they are brought 
down around five — well, between six and seven in the morn- 
ings to jail court. And it's nothing but one big room with bars 
and cement floor. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you tell us what is the usual 
disposition — First of all, the person who is arrested and charged 
with public drunkenness, is it correct that that person usually 
is not represented by counsel? Is that correct? 

Mr. Baker. Yes, that is correct. Well, up until recently, for a 
long time I could just count on every Saturday night being up 
between 3:30 and 5:30 because they would call and ask what 
to do — that is, the clients. And the only thing you could tell 
them to do going down Sunday morning for jail court would be 
to plead not guilty. 

As a matter of fact, on a good Sunday there will be approxi- 
mately a hundred brought in for public intoxication. About 1 to 
2 percent of those will actually plead not guilty. The rest then 
are — The 99 percent go off to jail. 

But on representation, if they don't have a private lawyer, 
and ninety — well a hundred percent of them didn't — they just 
faced the magistrate without any legal counseling. 

Now, recently, because of the Supreme Court ruling, we have 
a public defender who is assigned to jail court, and he will handle 
the case of any indigent who requests the services of a lawyer. 

It's turning out, however, that the vast majority are still plead- 
ing guilty and not taking advantage of the counseling of the 
public defender. 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, I was going to bring to your 
attention the Supreme Court decision in Argersinger v. Hamlin, 
407 U.S. 25, because it is incredible if the entire State of Ari- 
zona is violating the civil rights of these persons in confining 
them to jail without counsel. 

Mr. Baker. Yes, I don't mean to give the impression that — 
They do now have — When they come to court in the morning 


after being picked up at night, there is a public defender as- 
signed to traffic court and as the defendant comes before the 
court he is asked if he wishes to plead guilty or not guilty. If 
he wishes to plead guilty and wishes to waive the right to coun- 
sel, that is put on a stamp which I have here, and then he 
pleads guilty and goes on his way to jail or is released with a 
suspended sentence. 

If he wishes to plead not guilty — and he has to make that 
choice — then he will be assigned a public defender if he wishes 

Commissioner Freeman. I'm still a little disturbed because 
there may be a possibility that the public defender in some in- 
stances may just be used to facilitate the road to jail. Is that a 

Mr. Baker. In what respect, Madam Commissioner? 

Commissioner Freeman. Are there some public defenders — 
And, of course, as you perhaps know, through the years there 
have been some public defenders who have been so perfunctory 
in their representation of a defendant that they need not have 
been there in the first place. 

Mr. Baker. No, I don't think that is true at all of the Maricopa 
County Public Defender's office. I have had them appear before me 
as a judge; I have had occasion to work with them as a private 
lawyer, and I think they are a very dedicated group and a very 
aggressive group of lawyers. I feel a hundred percent they are 
defending the rights of indigents. I don't have that experience 
at all in Phoenix. 

Commissioner Freeman. Is it your testimony, then, that the 
persons who are sentenced to jail for public drunkenness are re- 
ceiving due process? 

Mr. Baker. I don't know really where to start answering that 
question. I think it starts really the night before with the more 
serious question of: Should they be arrested at all ? 

Commissioner Freeman. This is the point. I am going to ask: 
Does the organized bar of Arizona have any concern as to 
whether this should be a law in the first place? 

Mr. Baker. I can't answer your question. I can only answer it 
as it relates to me and the attorneys — 

Commissioner Freeman. You as an attorney — 

Mr. Baker. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. — who I believe has a reputation 
for being perhaps a civil rights attorney. 

Mr. Baker. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. What is your opinion in this matter? 

Mr. Baker. As to whether or not they should be picked up 
for drunkenness? 


Commissioner Freeman. Yes — whether this is an offense that 
actually should be an offense against the State. 

Mr. Baker. All right. Let me answer it by saying that I really 
can't make up my own mind, Madam Commissioner, for this rea- 
son: If you take an intoxicated person — and let's make it an 
Indian since we are concerned primarily with Indians — 

Commissioner Freeman. We seem only to get intoxicated 
Indians in jail. 

Mr. Baker. Many, many of them are. That's right. The largest 
percentage are. But the question is: What is the alternative? 
If you get an Indian who is intoxicated Saturday night and stum- 
bles out of a bar, you have two alternatives — or three. There 
will be a third one next year in 1974 of treating him as having 
the disease that he does, the illness that he does, But right now, 
what is the alternative? You either leave him alone — disregard 
him — and if you do that, then he is likely to be rolled or stabbed 
or beaten up by the people in the Deuce area who are less intoxi- 
cated than he is. This is a terrible fate for the person who is 

The other alternative is to pick him up and take him to jail 
and put him in the legal process which I have described. 

Now, which is worse? I think only you can make up your 
own mind. I personally feel that perhaps between those two 
alternatives at the moment the best is to take him off the street 
for his own protection. 

Now, what we do with him after he is picked up, I think, 
could be improved upon. But certainly I don't think the answer 
is to disregard his condition and ignore him and subject him 
to the fate that I have just described. 

Commissioner Freeman. Of course, I suppose I'm a little 
troubled by the "what we do with him" context of the state- 
ment, and that the "we" is a jurisprudence that excludes the 
Indian. In other words, he is sentenced, he is judged and sen- 
tenced, by persons who are non-Indians. 

Mr. Baker. That's true, and if the vast majority — 

Commissioner Freeman. By laws that are made by persons 
who are non-Indian. 

Mr. Baker. Yes. I certainly agree. And in many cases in a 
structure that he is completely — that is completely foreign to 
him, that he can't understand. He very frequently has a language 
problem so that he doesn't actually understand what is being 
said to him. 

In many cases he is still so under the influence that although 
you wouldn't classify him as being actually drunk in most cases 
at that point, he is still just one or two hours away from having 
been picked up, and I think there is certainly a great deal of 
room for improvement in this process. 


We have recently authorized the hiring of a Navajo interpreter 
which will at least help in the Navajo — with the Navajo people. 

Commissioner Freeman. That will just let him know why 
he is in jail — 

Mr. Baker. That's correct. 

Commissioner Freeman. — but it won't keep him out. 

Mr. Baker. That's exactly correct. And the only answer, of 
course, in keeping him out does not lie with the administration 
of justice. It's a far bigger problem involving lots of other agencies. 
But until he loses the need for drinking and is able to disperse 
from that Deuce area, we're only dealing with the symptom and 
not the disease — we, the lawyers. 

Commissioner Freeman. It seems to me that the legal pro- 
fession here in this State has a challenge and that it ought to 
be looking at its laws. 

Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. I don't quite understand. I'm not an attorney. I 
look at an awful lot of television I suppose, and when a person 
is arrested I always hear the officer say, "Don't say anything — 
you have the right to counsel." Now, I suppose you can't talk to 
a drunk man. He probably doesn't know what you're saying. 

Mr. Baker. That's true. 

Mr. Buggs. But when he gets to the court, isn't the critical 
point his plea? 

Mr. Baker. Yes. 

Mr. Buggs. Why, then, does the court not assign the public 
defender before he makes a plea? 

Mr. Baker. I think you have struck on a very critical point, 
Mr. Buggs. 


Mr. Buggs. Is there something that could be done about that? 

Mr. Baker. Madam Commissioner has raised this point too. 
What is the alternative? If in fact we postulate that he was 
intoxicated when he was picked up, what is the alternative 
to pleading guilty? 

Mr. Buggs. At least he has counsel to tell him what he ought 
to do. 

Mr. Baker. That's true. 

Mr. Buggs. That's what a counsel is for. 

Mr. Baker. And perhaps the procedure could be turned around 
so that he has counseling. But when you realize — I'm not ex- 
cusing this, and I think there is a definite need for improve- 
ment. We do have a vast number of prisoners that come down 
in the morning, as I say, anywhere from 80 to 100, and it's just 
running through one after another. 

Mr. Buggs. And I suspect that with the mass arrests of that 


kind that it's awfully likely that sometimes Indians are arrested 
who aren't intoxicated at all. 

Reverend Fife. Mr. Buggs, if I could — I'm pastor of a very 
small congregation. And even less than that is Indian, only about 
25 percent of my congregation. In recent history, my congrega- 
tion, within the last 10 years, two men, Papago men, members 
of my congregation who have been arrested by the police for 
public intoxication, have died as a result, direct result, of their 
handling during this process which we have been so intellectually 
discussing and legally discussing. 

One man in recent history, within the last 4 years, was ar- 
rested by the Tucson police. He was a very old man. While sitting 
on a street corner — this man had broken his hip — they arrested 
him for public intoxication. And by this man's family I have 
learned that that man had not touched a drink for at least 35 
years. He had been stone cold sober. They arrested him for public 
intoxication, took him to jail. He spent a day and a half in jail 
before his family was even able to find out where he was. They 
were frantically searching all the hospitals and places for him. 

When they finally did find him, discovered that his hip was 
broken and got medical care for him, he died in the hospital, 
never came out of the hospital. 

Another man, previous to that, died as a direct result of being 
beaten in that drunk tank we talked about so eloquently this 
evening — after being arrested for public intoxication. 

Part of Mike's bone of contention with commissions on civil 
rights and human relations, my congregation tried to take that 
before the Tucson Commission on Human Relations — the last 
case, the man with the broken hip who was arrested for public 
intoxication: They were told that the Commission on Human 
Relations couldn't deal with that case because the man had an 
arrest record for public intoxication. 

I looked up that arrest record for public intoxication. He was 
arrested once in 1929 for public intoxication. The Tucson Com- 
mission on Human Relations in 1967 didn't want to take that 
man's case on complaint against the Tucson Police Department 
because he had such a record. 

It's this sort of experience of a very small congregation in a 
very small area of our city. If you project that experience — two 
men dead as a direct result of contact with this process we 
have been talking about — if you project that figure to a total 
population, you get some idea of the enormity of the problem 
we are referring to at this point. 

Mr. Buggs. Well, it certainly seems to me that it is reasonable 
to assume that if a group of people get a reputation, deserved 
or not, of always being drunk, the natural consequence of that 
kind of stereotype is that any time an Indian is seen walking out 


of a bar one assumes that he is drunk and they put him in jail. 
And then they ask him if he is guilty before he has counsel, 
and he says "yes" because he may or may not know what he's be- 
ing asked, and off he goes to jail. 

I can see why Mr. Wilson gets frustrated. And let me say to 
you that you aren't arrogant at all. I don't think anyone on this 
panel thinks you are. I think you were acting or reacting in a 
very normal way. 

I would only say that frustration certainly never leads to the 
resolution of problems, and it's going to take young people 
like yourself to keep coming to places like this and to other 
places and saying the things you did before any changes are 
going to be made. 


Mr. Powell. One of the Indian members of our SAC men- 
tioned that often when an Indian is asked if he wants counsel, 
the only "council" that he knows is his tribal council. 

Mr. Baker. May I make one comment on that? As you know, 
the Civil Rights Act of 1968 provided for the appointment of 
counsel, or at least the availability of counsel, in criminal cases. 
I have been trying to push for the representation by counsel 
in civil matters in the tribal courts. And in spite of what I 
think is the clear language of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, the 
Salt River Tribe and the Colorado Tribe, just to name two, still 
will not let an Indian bring in an outside lawyer to represent 
him in the tribal court. So this is an area I think the Civil Rights 
Commission could well take some action in. 

We have been referring most of our questions to the urban 
area, but when you get tribal courts in close proximity to urban 
centers, as the Colorado Tribe is and the Salt River Tribe is, I 
think they should be entitled to counsel. And not only are they 
prohibiting it, but the tribal attorneys for both tribes have re- 
cently filed a brief in Federal Court saying that the Civil Rights 
Act of 1968 does not provide that as part of due process under the 

So I would ask you to check into that. 

Mr. Powell. Such inquiries as we have made suggest that 
there are a number of Indians, particularly tribal leaders, who 
feel that, if the 1968 act were to be construed as you say it 
should be, that that would be a substantial infringement upon 
the jurisdictional authority of tribes to conduct their affairs in 
accordance with their own sense of justice. I don't think at this 
point we are sufficiently familiar with this problem to have a 
judgment, but we certainly will look into it. 

Mr. Baker. I would just ask that that be done, yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. The witnesses 
are excused. 


Our next and final witnesses for tonight are Mr. Philip Tsosie, 
Dr. David Giles, and Mr. Albert French, Sr. 

Will you come forward, please? Will you remain standing, 

(Whereupon, Mr. Philip Tsosie, Dr. David Giles, and Mr. Al- 
bert French, Sr., were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and 
testified as follows: ) 






Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Mr. Smith will be asking the questions. 

Mr. Smith. Mr. French, would you please state your name and 
occupation for the record? 

Mr. French. My name is Albert French, Sr., and I am the 
Prisoner and Parole Coordinator for the Indian Development Dis- 
trict of Arizona. 

Mr. Tsosie. Philip Tsosie, the Director of the Southwest In- 
dian Youth Center. 

Dr. Giles. Dr. David Giles, the Associate Director, Southwest 
Indian Youth Center. 

Mr. Smith. Mr. Tsosie, would you please briefly describe for 
us the functions of the Southwest Indian Youth Center? 

Mr. Tsosie. Yes. The Southwest Indian Youth Center is a re- 
habilitation center for Indian youth, Indian males, between the 
ages of 13 and 21. 

Mr. Smith. And you are referred inmates from how large a 
geographical area? 

Mr. Tsosie. All of Arizona plus New Mexico, Utah, Nevada 
and California. 

Mr. Smith. And you have 71 slots at this time? Is that right? 

Mr. Tsosie. Right. 

Mr. Smith. Are there any other facilities of this kind avail- 
able to reservation Indians in the Southwest? 

Mr. Tsosie. No. 

Mr. Smith. Are there any facilities of this sort available to 
women, Indian reservation residents, at all ? 

Mr. Tsosie. No. 

Mr. Smith. What about facilities on reservations? Are there 
any facilities on reservations especially for juvenile offenders? 

Mr. Tsosie. Nothing other than the tribal jails that I know of. 

Mr. Smith. What are the sources of the funding for the South- 
west Indian Youth Center? Would Dr. Giles like to answer that? 

Dr. Giles. The Southwest Indian Youth Center is funded by 


multi-sources. All of them fund under the amount that is re- 
quired to keep a student there. The Bureau of Indian Affairs. The 
State Department of Vocational Rehabilitation. The Manpower 
Development Branch of the Labor Department was a former 
funding agent of this project. A number of counties in the State 
of Arizona fund. The State of Nevada funds. 

Mr. Smith. Isn't it correct that basically 85 percent of your 
funding is through the BIA? 

Dr. Giles. At least 85 percent. 

Mr. Smith. Isn't it also true that this funding source imposes 
upon your operations the limitation to reservation residents? 
In other words, you cannot service off -reservation residents ? 

Dr. Giles. That's correct. 

Mr. Smith. Does the Southwestern Indian Youth Center re- 
ceive any financial support directly from the State of Arizona? 

Dr. Giles. From the State Department of Corrections and 
from the State Department of Vocational Rehabilitation. How- 
ever, only for those residents that live off reservation. 

Mr. Smith. In other words, it's an individual funding for 
identified persons ? 

Dr. Giles. Right. 

Mr. Smith. But you don't receive any block grant of support 
from the State ? 

Dr. Giles. None at all from the State. 

Mr. Smith. Can you tell us why the State doesn't offer financial 

Dr. Giles. Our understanding as we approach governmental 
agencies in the State of Arizona is that Indian people are not 
taxpayers in the State of Arizona in the sense that they are 
taxed on reservation. Therefore, they are not entitled to the 
services of the State of Arizona. For example, the State indus- 
trial school is closed to Indian young people who commit offenses 
on reservation. 

Mr. Smith. In other words, the State feels that because res- 
ervations are not a tax-generating base that the residents of 
those reservations are not entitled to State programs, State 

Dr. Giles. I think that's a correct summary. 

Mr. Smith. What, then, has been the experience in obtaining 
funding from Federal sources? 

Dr. Giles. There is a great deal of difficulty there. Under the 
present administration there has been a tendency to regionalize 
all funding. As a result, State plans are required in order to 
qualify for regional funding. The State of Arizona views Indian 
people as non-taxpayers, therefore largely excluded from State 
plans. And as a result, in previous administrations Indian people 
have had to seek out discretionary money at a Washington level 


that is no longer there. You now have to go after regional money, 
and the population is excluded. 

Mr. Smith. So, in other words, you find on one hand the 
attitude of the State that directs you towards the Federal sources, 
and, on the other hand, the attitude of the Federal Government 
that directs you toward local sources ? 

Dr. Giles. Exactly. 

Mr. Smith. You recently mentioned to staff members an 
incident involving a direct grant from the National Institute of 
Mental Health. What was that about? 

Dr. Giles. There is discretionary money available in the 
National Institute of Mental Health of the Department of Health, 
Education, and Welfare. We found that after a site visit was 
held by a group of qualified researchers, their group of site 
visitors at a Washington level, that the State of Arizona ap- 
parently has applied pressure through the region stating that the 
State of Arizona was not consulted in the matter of this grant 
and there is a pressure being applied in the National Institute of 
Mental Health to revoke the grant. 

Mr. Smith. In other words, on one hand the State told you 
that you should seek funds elsewhere, but when you received 
direct funding elsewhere the State complained that it had not 
been a conduit for those funds ? 

Dr. Giles. That's correct. 

Mr. Smith. Aside from financial assistance, have you re- 
ceived cooperation from local government in the administra- 
tion of your programs? 

Dr. Giles. Are you talking about local law enforcement. 

Mr. Smith. Yes. 

Dr. Giles. Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. If a young person 
who is under 18 years of age, commits an offense, most coun- 
ties say they are under prior jurisdiction of a tribal court and 
refuse to provide any service in the form of either law enforce- 
ment or in the form of services available to somebody who has 
been convicted of a crime. 

In the case of the students that we have who are over 18, it 
varies. Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. If a young person is assaul- 
tive and a danger to the rest of the students in his population, 
we have had difficulty getting law enforcement to protect the 
other students in the center. They say it's an internal matter; 
they are all tribal referral; it should be handled there. 

Mr. Smith. Mr. Tsosie, you stated that — You might not have 
stated this, but isn't it true that your program has halfway 
houses located throughout the city of Tucson ? 

Mr. Tsosie. That's true. 

Mr. Smith. What responses have you received from members 


of the Tucson community in neighborhoods where halfway houses 
are located ? 

Mr. Tsosie. With one exception we have been received quite 
well within the community in which our halfway houses are 

Mr. Smith. Do you want to tell us something about that recent 
exception ? 

Mr. Tsosie. Right. There was a petition signed by members 
of the community within which we had hoped to locate one of 
our halfway houses, and they went to the zoning committee and 
to the city attorney in Tucson trying to keep us out of that 

Mr. Smith. Let's turn our subject to another form of correc- 
tional facility. Mr. French, in your capacity as prisoner and 
parole coordinator for the Indian Development District of Arizona, 
you are concerned primarily with Indian adult offenders rather 
than juvenile offenders? Isn't that right? 
Mr. French. Right, sir. 

Mr. Smith. It is my understanding that you served as an in- 
mate at the Arizona State Penitentiary at Florence recently. 
Is that correct? 
Mr. French. I served — I didn't quite get that. 
Mr. Smith. It's my understanding that you personally served 
as an inmate at the Arizona State Penitentiary. Is that correct? 
Mr. French. Yes. 

Mr. Smith. What, in your estimation, from your personal 
experiences and from talking to other people, are the principal 
problem areas for the Indian prisoners in the Arizona State 
prison system? 

Mr. French. Well, it's mainly the medical. They don't have 
doctors there who would see the inmates that need medical 
aid. That's for one. 

And they need an Indian counselor which they don't have. 
And there are 40 Indian inmates there at the State prison 
now, and, up to date, there are at least 12 of them that will be 
going up before the parole board within the next 2 or 3 months, 
and as far as I know they don't have any parole plan to present 
to the board, and so in this way they need a counselor there to 
find out just what the inmates want to do when they get out, 
whether they want to go into a training or go into direct 
employment. And there are a lot of services available to the 
offender and exoffenders which the inmates don't know about, so 
this is why they need a counselor. 

Mr. Smith. Without such a counselor is it your opinion that 
Indians are at a severe disadvantage before parole boards? 
Mr. French. Yes, I would — 
Mr. Smith. Are there any other functions, in your estimation, 


that counselors could serve? You mention that they could talk 
about programs that are available to exoffenders. What other 
kinds of functions could counselors serve? 

Mr. French. Well, they could talk over personal problems, 
and to their jobs, training problems. There are a few that are 
available now which the inmate would want to get into, but 
being an Indian and not knowing how to go about getting into 
these programs, well, he's just left behind. 

Mr. Smith. Are Federal BIA services or programs available 
to Indian inmates ? 

Mr. French. Not when I was there. And as far as I know 
there isn't any. 

Mr. Smith. Do you see a need for that kind of thrust for the 
BIA's programs? 

Mr. French. Sir? 

Mr. Smith. Do you see a function that BIA programs could 
serve in this regard ? 

Mr. French. Yes. 

Mr. Smith. I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. No questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. Dr. Giles, did I understand you to say that 
Indian young people who have committed some kind of oifense 
are not accepted at the State industrial school because they or 
their parents don't pay taxes ? 

Dr. Giles. Indirectly it's saying the same thing. It's saying 
that if an Indian young person commits an offense on reservation 
he's not entitled to the services of the State Department of 
Correction, be as they may. It may be a blessing that they are 
not entitled to this. But, at any rate, the State excludes Indian 
people who commit offenses on reservation from the State 
industrial school unless that reservation has a contract with the 
State industrial school to pay for it. 

Mr. Buggs. What about the State prison for adults? 

Dr. Giles. Mr. French could probably speak to that better than 
I could. 

Mr. Buggs. If an Indian commits an offense on a reservation, 
will he go to the State prison ? 

Mr. French. No, sir. He's sent to the Federal. 

Mr. Buggs. He will go to the Federal prison? 

Mr. French. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Buggs. It has to be committed off the reservation to go to 
a State prison ? 

Mr. French. Right, sir. 

Mr. Buggs. I see. No further questions. 


Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, gentlemen. The witnesses 
are excused. 

This hearing will now adjourn until 9:00 a.m., tomorrow 
morning, 9:00 a.m. Saturday morning. 

(Whereupon, at 9:13 p.m., the hearing was recessed, to be 
reconvened at 9: 00 a.m., Saturday, November 18, 1972.) 


United States Commission 
on Civil Rights 

Phoenix Indian School 

Phoenix, Arizona 

Saturday, November 18, 1972 

The United States Commission on Civil Rights reconvened, 
pursuant to recess, at 9:00 a.m., Frankie M. Freeman, Com- 
missioner, presiding. 

PRESENT: Frankie M. Freeman, Commissioner; Manuel Ruiz, 
Commissioner; John A. Buggs, Staff Director; John D. Powell, 
Jr., General Counsel; M. R. Smith, Assistant General Counsel; 
Joe C. Muskrat, Regional Director ; Jerry Muskrat, Staff Attorney. 


Commissioner Freeman. Good morning. 

This hearing is called to order. 

We would like to call as our first witness this morning, and the 
final witness on the subject of administration of justice, the 
Honorable William Rhodes, Chief Judge, Gila River Pima-Mari- 
copa Indian Community. 

Will the witness remain standing? 

(Whereupon, Honorable William Rhodes was sworn by Com- 
missioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 

Judge Rhodes. I have with me my legal aid man, Rod Lewis. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Lewis, will you be giving any 
testimony or making any statement? 

Mr. Lewis. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. If so, then, will you be sworn? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Rod Lewis was sworn by Commissioner 
Freeman and testified as follows: ) 




Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. 

Mr. Powell. Would you each please state your name, address, 
and position for the record? Also give us your tribal affiliation. 

Judge Rhodes. I am William Rhodes, Chief Judge for the 
Gila River Indian Community. This is the Pima tribe. 

Mr. Lewis. My name is Rod Lewis. I'm a Pima-Mojave. I'm 
an attorney working with the Gila River legal service, Sacaton, 


Mr. Powell. You both live on the Gila River reservation? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Judge Rhodes, how long have you served as judge, 
and what did you do before that? 

Judge Rhodes. I have been Chief Judge for 2 years and 9 
months. Prior to that time I worked with the council as an adviser 
to the council, and before that the Maricopa County sheriff's 
office. And prior to the sheriff's office, the Bureau of Indian Affairs 
police and tribal police. 

Mr. Powell. Judge Rhodes, would you briefly describe for us 
the law and order system on your reservation? 

Judge Rhodes. Our law and order system is set up primarily 
from the Code of Federal Regulations. However, it is a tribal 
court. It's not a federally-funded court. Our judges are paid by 
the Pima tribe. And we do have jurisdiction over criminal mis- 
demeanors. The major crimes are, as you know, handled by the 

Mr. Powell. How much does effective administration of jus- 
tice on your reservation depend on cooperation from outside law 
enforcement officials ? 

Judge Rhodes. Quite a bit. Because of the closeness of the 
surrounding communities and the relationship that we have with 
the communities, landwise particularly. The communities sur- 
rounding the Gila River, which is a very small area in Arizona, 
are growing so fast and large that they are pushing into the 
reservations, creating problems such as trespass and other 
things, resulting in a need to have a good working relationship 
with the outside agencies. Police agencies, I'm referring to. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have jurisdiction, for example, over non- 
Indians who commit offenses on your reservation ? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. Recently, within the past year and a 
half, the Pima tribe saw fit to initiate an ordinance on implied 
consent, and this ordinance was a result of some of the things I 
have just mentioned such as trespassing, the unauthorized re- 
moval of sand, gravel, cactus, wood, numerous other things; 
unauthorized hunting, target practicing, sand buggies, tote goats, 
just all types of trespass without permission on the reservations. 

In an effort to curb some of these violations which were 
occurring, after several meetings with some of the surrounding 
police agencies and the Federal Court, we were unable to get 
any satisfaction, so, taking the problem to the council, the 
council saw fit to initiate this implied consent ordinance. 

Prior to the time that the council had certified the ordinance, 
the court saw fit to assert jurisdiction in certain cases, and since 
that time, a year and a half ago, we have been asserting, and 
after the implied consent ordinance was passed — became policy 


rather in Washington — we do have jurisdiction over non-Indians 
in our tribal court at present. 

Mr. Powell. You mentioned implied consent. I take it that has 
something to do with a doctrine that non-Indians who knowingly 
come onto the reservation to do things like taking minerals or 
doing business are presumed to have consented to the exercise 
of jurisdiction by the tribal courts over them in connection with 
their presence and their activity on the reservation. Is that the 
doctrine ? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. Now, the implied consent ordinance was 
not signed by any particular person in Washington. The Secre- 
tary of Interior — 

Mr. Powell. Let me ask you a question on that. The Depart- 
ment of Interior normally provides legal assistance to tribes tak- 
ing important steps such as this, does it not? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. What assistance did they provide in this case — 
this effort to exercise jurisdiction over non-Indians? 

Judge Rhodes. None, except to allow the ordinance to lie on 
the desk. There's a 60-day period in which if the Secretary of 
the Interior doesn't act on a particular ordinance, then that 
ordinance becomes policy. 

Mr. Powell. You made a request of the Solicitor of the 
Department of Interior and of the Secretary of the Interior in 
connection with this? Is that correct? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. And did they take a position? Did they take a 
position one way or the other as to whether they would have 
such jurisdiction and they would support you or not? Or did they 
take no position, a noncommittal position? 

Judge Rhodes. It's a noncommittal position. They did see fit 
to allow it to become policy by leaving it the 60-day period. 
However, they didn't see fit to back the tribe. They left the 
ordinance — the ordinance was allowed to become policy — with- 
out any committal from the side of the Department. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Lewis, did you want to say anything on that? 
You're a legal adviser? Do you have any comments on it? 

Mr. Lewis. No, I don't. 

Mr. Powell. Don't you have some very serious problems with 
respect to enforcing such an ordinance? Let's assume the non- 
Indian comes onto your reservation and commits an act which 
is in violation of your law. He then is able to remove himself from 
the reservation. You then have the problem of effecting an arrest 
over the person of that violator, do you not? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. In order to effect such an arrest, wouldn't you 


require the assistance of either local law enforcement officials or 
Federal law enforcement officials? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. And in the absence of an agreement on the part 
of such officials to recognize your processes, aren't you left with- 
out the ability to exercise effective jurisdiction over the persons 
of non-Indians ? 

Judge Rhodes. This may have been the case prior to, I believe, 
it was April 12 of this year when one of the State Senators saw 
fit — Well, going beyond that point, we had a problem where one 
of our cases was dismissed by a local J.P. because, number one, the 
officer supposedly at that time wasn't recognized by the State of 
Arizona as an officer. 

Mr. Powell. You're talking about one of your local — 

Judge Rhodes. Tribal police officers. 

Mr. Powell. This was in connection with an offense on the 
reservation ? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Before a State justice of the peace? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. I see. And what happened? 

Judge Rhodes. Well, prior to the arrest, the surrounding J.P.'s 
would normally hear cases where our officers, the Indian officers, 
would cite a non-Indian on the reservation into a justice court off 
the reservation. But the one time that a defendant challenged 
the jurisdiction of the officer, the court immediately backed 
down and dismissed the case on the grounds that the officer 
supposedly wasn't recognized by the State as an officer. He didn't 
have jurisdiction. 

However, he did, in my sense of seeing things — he did have 
jurisdiction when the offense was committed on the reservation. 
However, when he transported the defendant to the county jail 
and the justice court, he may have lost jurisdiction there. That 
was never really decided. 

At that time is when the tribe began to assert jurisdiction 
because of the lack of recognition, number one, by the State that 
tribal officers, Federal officers, were recognized as policemen by 
the State. 

And through the help of one of the State Senators, as of April 
12 of this year I believe it was, all tribal officers and Federal 
BIA officers are recognized now by the State as officers. 

So through that recognition we have gained a better working 
relationship with the surrounding police agencies and are able 
to get our warrants, tribal warrants, served on non-Indians off 
the reservation. 

And, likewise, the non-Indian courts that need to have a de- 
fendant on the reservation must present a warrant with good 


cause to the court, and in turn the court would issue a warrant 
for the apprehension and the turnover of the defendant to the 
other agency also. 

Mr. Powell. Very good. 

Judge Rhodes, what about the area of felony criminal jurisdic- 
tion where the Federal Government has responsibility under 
Federal law ? What has been its record in exercising this function ? 

Judge Rhodes. I would say, frankly, very bad. The cases that 
— Numerous cases, felony cases, that we have had, cases that 
are severe in the sense that people get shot, in some cases killed, 
beaten up, mugged, robbed, raped — The Federal courts — I don't 
know why. It seems to be the attitude — and this is my own personal 
feeling from observing — that, you know, there's just a little 
sense of, you know, "Well, let them kill themselves off. They're 
just Indians." 

Mr. Powell. Since you don't have jurisdiction over these 
major felonies, unless the Federal Government exercises jurisdic- 
tion, then nobody does? Is that it? 

Judge Rhodes. That's right. 

Mr. Powell. What impact does that have on the law-abiding 
character of the people on your reservation ? 

Judge Rhodes. It has caused feuds. We have feuds that are 
still going now between families where — Just for instance, an 
example: A couple of men got in a fight about 4 years ago. One 
went home. The other followed about an hour later, and he carried 
a shotgun over there and shot the man in the stomach, killed 

The assailant was kept in — taken to jail, allowed on bond out 
on his OR — 

Mr. Powell. By Federal officials? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. He was allowed out on bond, and this case 
was continued and continued and continued for about a period of 
1 year, and finally the man went to court and got 1 year's proba- 
tion — for murder. 

Mr. Powell. Judge Rhodes, I wonder, would you provide us 
with a record of the kinds of incidents that you're now describ- 
ing? And we will undertake to be in touch with the Department 
of Justice to get a statement from them, not only regarding your 
situation, but their policy with respect to the need to enforce the 
law on reservations. 

Judge Rhodes. Yes, I can get this together. I will need the 
help of my police department there on the Gila River to get the 
information together. 

Mr. Powell. With the permission of the Staff Director, I 
will undertake to send one of my people down here to be in 
consultation with you regarding this. 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 


Mr. Powell. Mr. Staff Director? 

Mr. Lewis. Excuse me. May I add something here? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Mr. Lewis. I was just going to point out I think it's very 
important — and I'm not exactly sure what your function is — 

Mr. Powell. I'm sorry. Would you start again? 

Mr. Lewis. I'm not exactly sure what your function is, or 
your role in this matter, but I think it's very important that you 
be aware of this jurisdictional maze which at least Indian tribes 
in Arizona are faced with. 

I think it's apparent that there are three sovereign powers 
here exercising criminal jurisdiction — that is, the Indian tribes, 
the tribal government in our case, the Gila River Indian com- 
munity, the State of Arizona, and the Federal Government. 

And as you can see, there's much cause for some overlap. 

But I think the case has been that the State of Arizona and, 
well, especially the Federal Government, has shirked its re- 
sponsibility in enforcing criminal laws at both ends of the scale, 
as Judge Rhodes pointed out, in the area of major crimes and 
also in the area of lesser crimes over which many people 
have asserted that tribes do not have jurisdiction. 

And this is, I guess, the main reason why the tribe has 
asserted jurisdiction over non-Indians, and I think this requires 
— this may require — some Congressional action but also will re- 
quire some cooperation, some administrative cooperation, and 
agreements between the sovereign powers. 

And this is something I think which the Civil Rights Com- 
mittee can look toward or help in settling or pointing out, at 
least raising the issues or the problems. 

Mr. Powell. We understand that yours is only one of two 
tribes in the entire country that attempted to assert jurisdiction 
over non-Indians. Is that correct? 

Mr. Lewis. That's true. 

Mr. Powell. Well, it seems clear from what I know of this 
that certainly tribes have jurisdiction over Indians who commit 
crimes on reservations. It's certainly far from clear the extent 
to which tribes can exercise jurisdiction over non-Indians, isn't 
it? You're doing that, but you indicated the need for congres- 
sional action. 

Mr. Lewis. Well, I say that simply to clarify the situation 
and, you know, pinpoint the responsibility. In my mind there is 
no doubt that the Indian tribes do have jurisdiction over non- 

Mr. Powell. I see. With respect to crimes committed by 
Indians on reservations, crimes which require imprisonment, 
where do such Indian offenders — Where are they incarcerated? 


It's my understanding that such offenders are incarcerated in 
Federal prison. Is that correct? You have no such facilities? 

Judge Rhodes. Are you referring to major crimes? 

Mr. Powell. Well, does it matter? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. It does? In other words, you have a tribal jail 
for offenses which are not — 

Judge Rhodes. Misdemeanor offenses. 

Mr. Powell. But for major crimes they would go in Federal 

Judge Rhodes. Federal or State court. 

Mr. Powell. What about non-Indian offenders ? What would be 
done with non-Indian offenders who violate your law? 

Judge Rhodes. Misdemeanor law? 

Mr. Powell. Misdemeanor law, yes. 

Judge Rhodes. If they are sentenced to jail, according to the 
new — to the indigency law now which requires time to pay the 
fine or a sentence to jail, they are treated just exactly like 
anybody else. They are not any different. The tribal court in 
Gila River doesn't distinguish between the people that come be- 
fore it. 

Mr. Powell. But if the State were exercising jurisdiction 
where non-Indians were committing violations on the reserva- 
tion, you wouldn't have this problem? Is that correct? 

Judge Rhodes. Possibly. 

Mr. Powell. Judge Rhodes, does your tribe receive any law 
enforcement assistance through the Law Enforcement Assistance 

Judge Rhodes. Yes, we have received two grants through 

Mr. Powell. In applying and competing for such funds, do 
you feel that tribes face any particular barriers or disadvantage? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. I feel that we do have a barrier, a big 
barrier there because of the fact that we don't have qualified 
help for writing of proposals. We have been informed that, "If 
you can't write a proposal, let us know and we'll send a man 
down there to write it up for you." 

Mr. Powell. Who says this to you? 

Judge Rhodes. This has been stated by representatives of 
LEAA. But I have never seen it yet. 

Mr. Powell. Well, as I understand it, in applying for such 
funds you have to go through the State and have to be part of a 
State plan, do you not? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Does the State give you any particular priority 
as opposed to other municipalities within the State? 

Judge Rhodes. No. 


Mr. Powell. Are you put at a disadvantage vis-a-vis such 
other applicants within the State? 

Judge Rhodes. I think that we are. Because the tribes are 
not represented. I'm on one board, the Police-Community Re- 
lations Board. However, that's only one of the areas that LEAA 

Mr. Powell. Then, would you say that if tribes are to get a 
fair shake that either they ought to be given separate funding 
under LEAA or, if they are going to have to be put through 
State plans, that guidelines ought to be perfected so that in 
reviewing State plans the Indian component of such State plans 
would receive particular attention by the State and that atten- 
tion would be reviewed by the funding agency? 

Judge Rhodes. I would say so. 

Mr. Powell. Judge Rhodes, as a tribal judge and a past 
deputy sheriff, do you have any observations to share with us 
regarding the quality of treatment Indians receive from the 
justice systems of border towns surrounding your reservation? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes, I have observed and been asked by 
several of the people on the Gila River why they receive such 
harassment from, say, one of the sheriff's departments. And it 
doesn't seem to be the department as a whole. It's particular 
individuals who work for the sheriff's office, one of the sheriff's 

For instance, every time a carload of Indians goes by, the 
deputy will find or see fit for whatever reasons to stop this car 
and get the people out, shake them down, go through the car, 
look under the seats, harass them, make smart aleck remarks 
toward the people, and then threaten that if they don't shut up 
or if they attempt to talk back or ask, "Why are we being 
stopped?" or, you know, "What was your reason for stopping 
us?" — "Shut up, or you're going to end up in the back of the 
wagon." You know. This kind of stuff. 

This is particularly bad in the west end of our reservation. 
And I don't want to name any names, but I do know of a couple 
of deputies that I have — probably in the near future will write 
letters to the department, sheriff's office in that particular area, 
on, if this harassment continues. 

The east end of the reservation hasn't been so bad. We don't 
receive that type of harassment from that particular area up 
there. But this one area is real bad in that. 

Mr. Powell. If you have problems with that, if you would 
provide in writing the discussion of those, naming those sheriffs 
in writing, subsequently, and what the activities are, we might 
be of assistance. 

What about the treatment of Indians with respect to offenses 
committed ? Are they treated in the same way under State courts 


as non-Indians in terms of fines and sentencing? Are they more 
likely to be arrested for offenses than non-Indians? Or do you 
have a view on that? 

Judge Rhodes. Oh, yes. Yes. I have always noticed this. And 
it's outstanding in any State, particularly Arizona, where if you 
have five men pass down on the ground and there's one Indian 
among them, that's the guy they're going to pick up. I have 
seen this with my own eyes. 

Mr. Powell. They're more likely to be arrested for intoxica- 
tion than non-Indians? 

Judge Rhodes. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Powell. One last request, Judge Rhodes. You mentioned 
two LEAA grants. If you would describe those grants to us in 
writing subsequent to this hearing, we would appreciate it. All 

Judge Rhodes. The first grant we received was for $50,000, 
and that was money to be used to get four cars for the depart- 
ment, which there has been a lack of BIA supposedly to supply 
cars, equipment. However, there has been a lack of equipment 
for the police officers. We did get four cars with that money, 
fully-equipped. We have radar and Bascar units in two of the 
cars, two units of the same type in each. 

We got stretchers. 

We have a new radio system which we will be — should be — 
complete this month which will put the Gila River police under 
their own frequency. However, we will maintain two radios 
which will be in contact with the State frequency. 

The other grant was a criminal code revision grant which 
is about 60 percent complete at this time. And in that criminal 
code, the revision, we are attempting to keep in touch with the 
State Attorney here and keep it as close as possible to the 
working relationship that the State Code has so that, if there 
ever is a change, there wouldn't have to be that much change 
made to our revised code. 

Mr. Powell. How large is your reservation? How many peo- 
ple reside thereon? 

Judge Rhodes. We have between 6,500 and 7,000. 

Mr. Powell. And how large in land — 

Judge Rhodes. Sixty-five miles long and 20 miles at the 
widest point. 

Mr. Powell. That's as large as most cities. 

I have no further questions, Madam Chairman. 

Commissioner Freeman. Judge Rhodes, I would first like to 
commend you for asserting the jurisdiction of your court, of the 
tribal court, over the offenses committed by non-Indians. How- 
ever, it seems to me that the question is very serious because 


the State of Arizona cannot be absolved from responsibility in 

There is a very basic provision under our Constitution that no 
State shall deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal 
protection of the laws. 

And the situation that has been described this morning in- 
dicates that the State of Arizona is in violation of the Constitu- 
tion with respect to administration of justice. And certainly this 
Commission has the responsibility to pursue this. 

I was pleased that our general counsel did not wait for the 
Commission to at least request that the staff check further into 
this and get the facts. 

Judge Rhodes. Probably the biggest reason for this — You 
know, it's like a big kid — all these violators that come out on 
the reservation. We had attempted to work with the city police, 
the county police, hoping that they would give us the backing 
that they should. However, every time there was a call on a 
non-Indian who might be violating the law in one way or 
another on the reservation, it was always the type of discipline 
that you might give a little kid. You know, slap him on the 
hand and tell him, "Don't do this again." 

We could never get any backing out of the courts, say a stiff 
fine and say, "You cannot do this and expect to get away with 
it." We want some respect too. It's our land. They've pushed us 
into these little pockets. We're there, and that's the last we have. 

Now, we welcome anybody, everybody, to our reservation. 
However, we want them to afford us the same respect that they 
afford their people when they're off reservation. 

Commissioner Freeman. That's the only way it can be. 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. Judge Rhodes, with respect to this roust- 
ing that they get, the Indians in trucks, is it done by Federal 
officials or State officials ? 

Judge Rhodes. I didn't understand you. 

Commissioner Ruiz. The rousting, getting them off of their 
transportation facilities — the rousting — the inquiries made of 
Indians — is it done by State officials or is it done by Federal 
officials? You mentioned that on the west side this happens more 
often than on the east side of the reservation. 

Judge Rhodes. That would be probably county officials. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Oh, they are county officials? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. The reason I ask that is: What is the 
excuse for doing it? Do they claim that they are illegal aliens 
or what are they looking for when they do this, when they stop 
and check? What is the excuse that the county uses? 


Judge Rhodes. There's no excuse really. Just a week ago there 
was a family that approached me and asked, "Why is it that 
every time we leave the reservation on 51st Avenue that we have 
to be stopped by this one particular guy?" 

And it seems like everybody in the west end knows this one 
particular deputy. He just has — What? Something against the 
Indians in that particular area. He never has bothered the non- 

And I — Originally I'm from the west end. I live in Sacaton 
now. But during my time on the west end I never saw this 
deputy have a car stopped where there might be non-Indians in 
the car. But every time I have personally seen him with a car 
stopped it was Indians in the car. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Well, you have answered what I was 
looking for. In other words, it is the local officers — 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. — county officer, that does this. 

Now, are there instances where a tribal police officer instead 
of taking the non-reservation person to a J. P. takes the person 
to the reservation jail? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And you have facilities there for release 
of that person on his own OR ? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Do you sometimes impose, ask for bail? 

Judge Rhodes. A cash bond, yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And are bail facilities available in the 
area for a non-reservation person ? 

Judge Rhodes. We don't have a bonding system such as the 
outside courts here do. However, the court has set up a bonding 
system available to the people, making bonding available to 

Commissioner Ruiz. Have you had any particular trouble 
with that phase of law enforcement? 

Judge Rhodes. None at all. 

Commissioner Ruiz. That's all. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. Judge Rhodes, it was mentioned that we are 
dealing with three sovereign powers: The tribal power, the 
State, and the Federal Government. Suppose someone wants to 
appeal from a decision of your court. To whom does he appeal? 

Judge Rhodes. The tribal court provides for a three-judge 
panel appeal, and this is their appeal. However, it can, if they 
are not satisfied at that level — Then it can end up in district 

Mr. Buggs. Federal district court? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 


Mr. Buggs. But not to the State court? 

Judge Rhodes. No. 

Mr. Buggs. Well, if that's so, then, there are at least two 
separate and distinct court systems in Arizona. Is that right? 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Buggs. The Federal and the State, with the tribal court 
being in some way related to the Federal court system. Is that 

Judge Rhodes. Yes. 

Mr. Buggs. Why, then, do you have to get money through the 
State from LEA A funds? Why is it not — have you investigated 
as to whether or not, since you do have a totally separate legal 
system — whv do you have to get money, LEAA money, through 
the State? Why can't it come directly from the Federal Govern- 
ment to you ? 

Judge Rhodes. I'm not sure. I believe it's the way the govern- 
ment, our particular tribal government, is set up. I do know that 
there are tribes who have federally-funded judges. However, the 
particular tribes that have federally-funded judges, I don't think 
are in a position to properly administer justice to the people, 
because in these particular situations the judges are only funded 
for a minimum time, and in some cases I know of the judges 
only hold court on, say, 2 days a week, or 3 days a week, and this, 
as I see it right there, is a violation of a person's rights because 
he doesn't have the immediate trial that if he wants he can 

Mr. Buggs. I wonder if your legal counsel has an opinion 
as to whether or not, under the circumstances that your courts 
are operating, you should be able to get funds directly from 
LEAA rather than through the State. 

Mr. Lewis. I think it's kind of difficult to answer that ques- 
tion. I think, yes, we should be eligible to receive funds directly 
from LEAA as a sovereign power and Indian tribes possessing 
the full right to govern themselves, which includes operating 
a criminal justice system. And it seems to me it's a failure of 
recognition by the State and by the Federal Government of this 

As to whether or not it is possible under existing LEAA 
regulations I don't know. Probably not. It seems to me that LEAA 
and other Federal programs recently are — The attempt is to 
regionalize them, to funnel funds through the States, and as a 
result tribes are left out. 

I think as Judge Rhodes pointed out this is a bad thing as far 
as Indian tribes are concerned. We get a low priority as far as 
funds are concerned, and I think we won't fare as well. And I 
think it is very desirable for Indian tribes to be funded directly 
from the Federal Government. 


Mr. Buggs. I have no more questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much, gentlemen. 
You may be excused. 

Judge Rhodes. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. We will now begin the subject area 
of employment, and we will call as our first witness, Mr. Ernest 
Gerlach, a Commission staff member, who will give a brief 
summary of an Indian employment staff paper. 

Will you be sworn? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Ernest Gerlach was sworn by Commissioner 
Freeman and testified as follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. Will you present the summary of 
your staff paper? 

Mr. Gerlach. The Bureau of Indian Affairs estimated that in 
1972 approximately 38,400 American Indians living on reserva- 
tions in Arizona were of working age, or in the labor force. Of 
this total, 15,520, or approximately 40 percent, were classified 
by the BIA as being unemployed. In contrast, the unemploy- 
ment rate for the entire State was reported to be 4.1 percent in 

Not only do American Indians in Arizona have very high un- 
employment rates, a significant number were reported to have 
only temporary or seasonal employment. For example, the BIA 
estimated that about 20 percent of the Indian labor force on 
reservations in Arizona were employed on a temporary or periodic 

For a large number of American Indians in Arizona, govern- 
ment and related services provides most of the employment on 
the reservation. This employment is provided mainly by the 
Federal Government. Tribal governments also provide a substan- 
tial employment base. 

In a special study conducted jointly by Arizona State Univer- 
sity and the Arizona State Employment Service in 1969, it was 
reported that tribal employment is significant on many res- 
ervations in the State. 

It was also reported in a separate study entitled the Navajo 
Manpotver Survey that the Navajo tribe employs about 5,450 
persons, nearly 45 percent of all those employed on the res- 
ervations. More significantly, 65.8 percent of all the wage and 
salary workers on the reservation are employed by the tribal 
government. On the other hand, very few Indians are employed 
in either the State government or in municipal governments in 

Employment in the other sectors, such as agriculture, con- 


struction, manufacturing, transportation, communications, 
wholesale and retail trade is limited. However, on some reserva- 
tions, especially on the Navajo and Fort Apache reservations, 
employment in manufacturing is significant, although small in 
relation to the total reservation population. 

In 1971, Indians comprised about 15 percent of all the Federal 
jobs in Arizona. However, a large percentage of these Indian 
employees were concentrated in the lower grade and wage board 
levels. For example, while Indians made up 17.9 percent of all 
the Federal employees in the general schedule (GS) pay system 
in Arizona, 54.8 percent of these employees were in grades GS-1 
through 8. 

Similarly, Indians constituted 20.0 percent of all the wage 
board workers in Arizona, but 40.7 percent of all the Indian 
regular nonsupervisory employees, 68.0 percent of the Indian 
regular wage employees, and 19.9 percent of all the Indian reg- 
ular supervisory employees were concentrated in wage levels 1 
through 3. Over 50 percent of all Indians in other wage systems 
were earning below $7,000 annually. 

The largest Federal employer of Indians in Arizona is the 
Bureau of Indian Affairs. In 1971, the BIA employed a total of 
2,829 employees in the GS pay system and 1,112 in the wage 
board system. Of this total, American Indians constituted about 
60.6 percent of all GS employees and 85 percent of all wage 
board employees. 

Although Indians comprised the majority of all GS and wage 
board personnel employed by the BIA, most of these Indian 
employees were again concentrated in the lower grade and wage 
board categories. For example, in Arizona, American Indians 
comprised 81.2 percent of all the GS personnel employed in 
grades 1 through 8, while Anglo personnel made up only 7.3 
percent of the GS employment in these grades. On the other 
hand, Indians were only 23.6 percent of all employees in grades 
GS-11 through 15, while Anglos constituted over 70 percent of 
all employees in these grades. 

In 1971 slightly over 85 percent of all wage board workers 
employed by the BIA in Arizona were American Indians, and 
only 12.5 percent were identified as Anglo. However, approxi- 
mately 60 percent of all the Indian wage board employees earned 
less than $9,000 a year. At the same time, only 9.3 percent of 
the white wage board employees earned less than $9,000 an- 
nually. Conversely, over 90 percent of all the white wage board 
employees earned more than $9,000 a year, whereas only 39 
percent of all the Indian wage board workers made more than 
that amount. 

The same grade level distribution also appears to exist for the 
Phoenix Area Office of the BIA. One thousand two hundred and 


eighteen GS employees were employed by the Phoenix Area 
Office in 1972. Approximately 51 percent of all these GS em- 
ployees were American Indians. However, almost 70 percent of 
these Indian employees were in grades GS-1 through 5, whereas 
only 16 percent of all the non-Indian GS personnel were in 
these grades. The majority of the Indian employees were in 
grades GS-3, 4, and 5, whereas most of the non-Indian GS 
employees were concentrated in grades GS-9 and 11. 

In terms of wage board employment, 332 American Indians 
and 127 non-Indians were employed as blue-collar workers in 
the Phoenix Area Office. Over 51 percent of all Indian wage board 
employees earned less than $9,000 annually, while only 13.3 per- 
cent of the non-Indian employees made less than this wage. On 
the other hand, over 86 percent of all the non-Indian wage 
board employees earned more than $9,000 a year, and only 52 
percent of the Indian wage board workers made more than this 

In relation to other Federal agencies having staff in Arizona, 
the number of Indians employed is very small. For example, 
the Post Office Department employed 5,093 persons in 1971; of 
this total only 34 were identified as American Indians. 

The Treasury Department maintained a staff of 499 persons in 
the State ; only one employee was an American Indian. 

The Justice Department employed over 500 persons; yet only 
one was Indian. 

The Department of Agriculture employed only 69 American 
Indians out of a total employment of 1,415. 

The Department of Transportation employed about 360 persons ; 
again there was only one Indian. 

The Department of Housing and Urban Development em- 
ployed only one Indian out of a total employment of 136. 

The State government in Arizona also employs few American 
Indians. According to the Arizona Civil Rights Commission, 
American Indians constituted only 1.6 percent of the total State 
employment in 1971. Overall, there were only 418 Indian State 
employees out of a total employment of 26,918. 

Over 80 percent of all Indians employed by the State were 
concentrated in six agencies. Arizona State University employed 
49 American Indians out of a total employment of 5,145. 

The State Education Department employed 58 American In- 
dians out of 403 employees. 

The Employment Security Commission employed approximately 
950 persons ; only 48 were Indian. 

The Highway Department in 1971 employed over 4,250 per- 
sons ; only 74 were American Indian. 

Northern Arizona University employed about 932 persons; 41 
were Indian. 


The University of Arizona employed a total of 6,890 persons; 
69 were Indian. 

The Welfare Department employed 958 persons ; 31 were Indian. 

Of the 98 separate governmental agencies constituting the 
State government, 72 agencies and related boards did not have 
any Indians employed at all. 

Of the 418 Indians employed by the various State agencies, 
264 or 63.1 percent were located in white-collar or skilled jobs, 
while 154 or 36.9 percent were employed in low-skilled occupa- 
tions. However, compared with the total State employment, 
American Indians made up only 1.2 percent of all the State 
employees in the white-collar jobs and 2.8 percent of all the 
State employees in the blue-collar occupations. 

The employment of Indians in local and municipal govern- 
ments in Arizona appears to be minimal. In Phoenix, only 49 
American Indians were reported to be employed out of a total 
municipal employment of 5,020 in 1971. Over 60 percent of all 
Indians employed by the city were in the Water and Sewers 
Department. More than half were classified as semi-skilled opera- 
tives, two were classified as unskilled laborers, and five were 
identified as skilled laborers. 

In Tucson, Indians represent less than 1 percent of the total 
municipal employment. 

Indians also represent a very small proportion of the total 
employment in school districts throughout Arizona. Of the 
37,722 certified and non-certified school employees reported in 
various categories, only 791, or approximately 2.1 percent, were 

In addition, American Indians represented only 3.8 percent of 
all the non-certified employees in various categories. 

More important, Indians constituted less than 1 percent of all 
the certified teachers and approximately 1.5 percent of all the 
guidance counselors. 

The majority of Indian school employees were located in four 
counties — Apache, Coconino, Gila, and Navajo. Even in these 
counties, Indian employees were only a small proportion of all 
school employees. 

Over 70 percent of the population in Apache County is Indian, 
yet Indians are only 28 percent of the total school employment 
in that county. 

In Navajo County, Indians are 48 percent of the population, 
yet only 14.6 percent of all the school employees are Indian. 

In Coconino County, almost 25 percent of the population is 
Indian, but only 14 percent of all the school employees in that 
county are Indians. 

Similarly, in Gila County, Indians are 8.3 percent of all the 


school employees in the county, yet they constituted over 15 
percent of the county's population. 

In terms of the number of teachers employed in these counties, 
the situation is very similar. In Apache County, 67.1 percent of 
all the pupils enrolled in public schools were Indian, yet there 
were only 15 Indian teachers out of a total of 313. 

Navajo County had 2,798 Indian pupils attending public schools, 
yet only 7 teachers out of 422 were Indians. 

About 23 percent of the total school enrollment in Coconino 
County were Indians, yet only 2.3 percent of the teachers were 

In Gila County, almost 15 percent of the student enrollment 
in the public schools were Indians, but less than 1 percent of all 
the teachers were Indians. 

In relation to private employment, very few American Indians 
are in the labor force off the reservation. According to the 
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, in 1970 approxi- 
mately 3,152 Indians out of a total surveyed labor force of 
196,899 were employed in 982 business units. Overall, Indians 
comprised about 1.6 percent of the surveyed labor force. 

A large proportion of this Indian labor force was employed 
in occupations of low economic status. For example, in Arizona 
the number of Indians employed in low-paying and low-skilled 
jobs was 2,262, or approximately 72 percent of all Indians em- 
ployed in private businesses. 

In a special survey of Indian employment in Phoenix, it was 
noted that a significant portion of all of the Indian labor force 
was employed in low-skilled occupations. For example, 47 com- 
panies were surveyed in Phoenix having a total employment of 
36,576 persons in 1971. Minorities, including American Indians, 
made up approximately 16 percent of the surveyed labor force. 
However, American Indians comprised less than 1 percent of 
the minority employment and less than 1 percent of the entire 
employment in these 47 companies. 

Two basic conclusions can be derived from the data: 

First, American Indians constitute only a very small part of 
the off-reservation labor force. 

Second, those Indians that are employed in off-reservation 
jobs tend to be concentrated in low-skilled and low-paying oc- 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Gerlach, first, I think that it's 
an understatement to say that that's a rather bleak and dreary 

But on behalf of the Commission I would like to make two 

We ask that as that report relates to State employment that a 
copy of it be transmitted today to the Governor and any ap- 


propriate State officials for their comments and that as to that 
portion of the report relating to private employment that a copy 
of it be transmitted immediately to the Equal Employment 
Opportunity Commission for their comments — that report itself. 

Mr. Gerlach. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be excused. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Gerlach, do you remember what is the 
Indian percentage of the Arizona population? It's about 5.4 per- 

Mr. Gerlach. 5.4 percent as of 1970. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be excused, 
with the understanding that the staff will follow through on the 

Mr. Gerlach. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. The first witnesses are Sonya Shep- 
herd and Tony Escalante. 

Will you remain standing and be sworn ? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Sonya Shepherd and Mr. Tony Escalante 
were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and testified as follows: ) 




Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Beginning with the gentleman on my left, would 
you each please state your name, address, and occupation for the 

Mr. Shepherd. My name is Sonya Shepherd. My residence is 
1178 Delano Drive, Casa Grande, Arizona. My occupation is a 
project director for a training program. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Escalante? 

Mr. Escalante. My name is Tony Escalante. I'm a tribal labor 
coordinator, Papago tribe, and I live in Sacaton, Arizona. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Escalante, you mentioned that you are a 
labor coordinator. What are your responsibilities as labor coor- 
dinator for your tribe ? What do you do ? 

Mr. Escalante. I do the hiring for the mines on the reserva- 
tion, and I also help in problems on the job. 

Mr. Powell. You do the hiring for mines, you say? 

Mr. Escalante. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Escalante, we understand that the unem- 
ployment is very high on many of the reservations. What is the 
unemployment rate on your reservation ? 

Mr. Escalante. It's about 60 percent. 

Mr. Powell. Sixty percent? 

Mr. Escalante. Yes. 


Mr. Powell. What kinds of jobs are available to Indians on 
your reservation ? 

Mr. Escalante. Well, we have mining, construction. We have 
the tribal council and Bureau of Indian Affairs, Papago Utility, 
Kitt Peak Observatory, and the Public Health and the Papago Ex- 
plosives Company. 

Mr. Powell. Is there road construction on your reservation? 
Housing construction ? 

Mr. Escalante. Sometimes, yes. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Escalante, what are some of the problems 
that Indians on reservations face in getting meaningful em- 
ployment? Do they have difficulty in getting jobs? 

Mr. Escalante. Lack of education and transportation, expe- 
rience or training, and alcoholism. They're not dependable. 

Mr. Powell. I see. The view that they are not dependable? 

Mr. Escalante. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Shepherd, would you care to comment on 
that? The location of the reservation, geographical isolation? 

Mr. Shepherd. Certainly. The reservation is a large reserva- 
tion. It comprises almost 3 million acres, approximately 4,500 
square miles. The population of the reservation is quite scattered. 
Small villages dot the entire reservation. 

Mr. Powell. Are there roads ? 

Mr. Shepherd. There are only two roads, two paved roads, 
one running east and west across the center of the reservation, 
approximately the center, which is a State road, and then BIA 
has intersected that road at approximately in the middle of the 
reservation running directly north to Casa Grande. 

Now, there's approximately 650 miles of roads in this 4,500 
square mile area. Most of those, approximately 60 percent of 
those roads, are unpassable much of the time. They are anything 
from trails up to fairly well-graded roads. The transportation 
problem is very tough especially for the villages or the Indians 
living in the villages in the outer areas. In the first place, they 
don't have many automobiles out there. In the second place, 
there's no public transportation whatsoever. So only those that 
live near the activity that hires can really go to work. 

Mr. Powell. What about telephone service, electrical service? 

Mr. Shepherd. I think there's probably between 60 and 70 
telephones on the reservation. Only, there are fewer than 20 of 
those outside the city or the village of Sells which is kind of the 
capital of the reservation. 

Mr. Powell. Thank you. 

Mr. Escalante, we understand you have approached private 
construction contractors employing few or no Indians to ask them 
to hire more Indians. Is that correct? 

Mr. Escalante. That's right. 


Mr. Powell. What kind of response have you received ? 

Mr. Escalante. They told me they brought in their own people 
from California and they told me, well, if anybody wanted a job 
they could come over and get an application and fill it out. Only 
one Indian went up there and got a job now. 

Mr. Powell. We understand that you and Mr. Shepherd par- 
ticipated in the preparation of a survey of employment oppor- 
tunities available for Indians on or near the reservation. Did 
you not ? 

Mr. Escalante. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Would you please tell us what that survey — 
about the findings of that survey regarding the filling of posi- 
tions by Papagos? 

Mr. Escalante. When we found that there were a lot of 
young people and even older people and middle aged that want 
to work, that want to be trained. And we find at least maybe 40 
percent, 47 percent, want to go in the training program. And 
we got all those names and everything else like that. Shepherd can 
tell you. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Shepherd, do you want to comment for us? 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes. We made two surveys, one in the mining 
industry, because the mining industry should have a large im- 
pact on the Papago reservation inasmuch as it kind of surrounds 
the reservation. Secondly was the towns immediately off the 
reservation like Casa Grande and Gila Bend and Buckeye. Very 
few Indians work in the towns or cities right off the reservation. 
For instance, Buckeye, which is almost contiguous with the res- 
ervation, and about four or five different companies that we 
surveyed didn't have one single Indian. 

Gila Bend is perhaps the best area for employment, the Gila 
Bend-Ajo area. 

Casa Grande, there were very few Indians — It's 10 miles 
from Casa Grande to the reservation, yet there are very few 
Indians employed in Casa Grande. 

Mr. Powell. We understand there are about 2,500 jobs close 
to the reservation in communities where Indians trade. Does 
that sound — 

Mr. Shepherd. Those are the terms that I have just de- 

Mr. Powell. And only 60 Indians are employed in those 2,500 

Mr. Shepherd. That is correct. Those are the 2,500 jobs of 
the industries that we surveyed. We didn't survey every employ- 
ment activity. 

Mr. Powell. Breaking down some of those statistics in Buck- 
eye, for example, the number of employees, including Indian 
employees, are as follows: 


Buckeye Industries, 225 employees, no Indians. 

Arizona Mach Company, 16 employees, no Indians. 

Buckeye Auto Parts, 3 employees, no Indians. 

O'Mally Buckeye Lumber Company, 7 employees, no Indians. 

Buckeye Irrigation Company, 17 employees, no Indians. 

Goodyear Aerospace Corporation, 1,462 employees, no Indians. 

Mr. Shepherd. That is correct. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Shepherd, the survey in question primarily 
dealt with the mining industry, did it not? 

Mr. Shepherd. That is true. 

Mr. Powell. Will you please tell us something about that 
survey and its purposes? 

Mr. Shepherd. Well, the purpose of the survey — the Bureau 
of Mines asked us to come out here and do this: The Papago 
Indians have some copper on their own reservation, and two 
areas have been leased out. One is an active mine or there are 
two mines active, one on the San Xavier reservation, one on the 
main Sells reservation. They felt that the Indians were not get- 
ting a sufficient amount of employment from any of these areas. 
There are eight mines located within a commuting distance of 
the reservation. 

And so they went to the Bureau of Mines — Well, when they 
approached the companies, they said, "Well, we're hiring all of 
the qualified Indians that we can find." So they went to the 
Bureau of Mines and asked the Bureau if they could qualify 
the Indians to go to work for them. So the Bureau of Mines 
then sent us in here to make a survey to see if there were really 
employment opportunities for the Indians and, if so, if there 
were a sufficient number of Indians who really wanted to go to 
work. And so we made the survey. 

And to your initial question, in the mining area there are 
approximately 8,000 jobs within a reasonable commuting dis- 
tance on or almost immediately within the vicinity of the reser- 
vation. And there are approximately 200 Indians employed in 
those 8,000 jobs. 

Mr. Powell. About 2 percent? 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. And the Indian population in that area is 15 
percent or above ? Is that correct ? 

Mr. Shepherd. I'm not sure of the figures. Of course, some 
of the mines are surrounded by Indians. They're on reservations. 

Mr. Powell. Yes, even higher. 

Is it not true, Mr. Shepherd, that the report indicates, for 
example, that out of 1,258 employees of the Phelps Dodge Cor- 
poration there, only 96 Indians are employed? And that out of 
500 employees of the Hecla Mining Company located on the res- 
ervation only 50 are Indians ? 


Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Is that correct? 

Mr. Shepherd. Right. 

Mr. Powell. I take it that this is especially important in light 
of the fact that a lease is being negotiated with the Hecla Cor- 
poration on the reservation? Is that correct? 

Mr. Shepherd. The lease has been — I guess the lease has been 
already — 

Mr. Powell. Has recently been executed, yes. 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have any information as to whether or 
not there is a clause in that lease regarding employment of 
Indians ? 

Mr. Shepherd. There is none, I have been told by the tribal 
chairman. There is no clause in the lease requiring employment 
of Indians. 

Mr. Powell. Shouldn't such leases include such agreements? 

Mr. Shepherd. Well, I'm not really qualified, I guess, to — 

Mr. Powell. Do such leases — 

Mr. Shepherd. Oh, yes, yes, many companies do have such 

Mr. Powell. Now, is there sometimes an oral agreement cover- 
ing such subjects? 

Mr. Shepherd. Well, the Papago felt that they had an oral 
agreement. They thought that approximately 50 percent of the 
employees would be Indians. 

Mr. Powell. Isn't it the responsibility of the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs to review such leases and protect the interests of Indians ? 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. What happened in this case? 

Mr. Shepherd. They have to sign the lease. 

Mr. Powell. They signed without such a provision ? 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Now, is transportation a problem, Mr. Shepherd? 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. For Indians? 

Mr. Shepherd. It's a terrible problem. They hardly have any 

Mr. Powell. Hecla Mining Company operates a shuttle service 
between the mine and the town of Casa Grande 36 miles away? 
Is that correct ? 

Mr. Shepherd. That is correct. 

Mr. Powell. And the exclusive purpose of that shuttle service 
is to bring in Anglo employees? Is that correct? 

Mr. Shepherd. I guess any employees that — 

Mr. Powell. Or non-Indian employees, I should say? 


Mr. Shepherd. Any employees that reside in the Casa Grande 
area, yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Is such transportation provided for Indians living 
on the reservation ? 

Mr. Shepherd. No, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Have you ever inquired about the possibility of a 
shuttle service for Indian employees? 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes. I asked the former personnel director of 
Hecla why he didn't run a bus to the south, and he said that 
it was not economically feasible, there were not enough Indians 
working at the mine from the south to justify it. 

Mr. Powell. But had there been transportation provided there 
might be more Indian employees? Is that correct? 

Mr. Shepherd. Well, a lot of Indians are not employed because 
they don't have transportation. You're right. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Shepherd, you have dealt with — How many 
mining companies in the area? Five? 

Mr. Shepherd. Eight. 

Mr. Powell. Eight mining companies in the area? 

Mr. Shepherd. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Do you know whether or not they have affirma- 
tive action programs ? 

Mr. Shepherd. I have asked them all and got a negative an- 

Mr. Powell. They say they have no affirmative action pro- 
grams ? 

Mr. Shepherd. Right. 

Mr. Powell. Well, whether or not they have affirmative action 
programs, their employment pattern regarding Indians would 
indicate either that they don't have such programs or that the 
Indian component of such programs is either inadequate or not 
being satisfied. Would you agree? 

Mr. Shepherd. The evidence indicates that, yes, sir. 

Mr. Powell. What about the standards of employment, Mr. 
Shepherd? Are they realistic and are they uniform? 

Mr. Shepherd. Well, the standards are certainly not uniform, 
in that some of the companies require the sheepskin from high 
school. They must have the certificate, whereas others don't. 

You might think this particularly bad for the Papago because 
the Papago didn't have a high school on the reservation until 
1970. And as a consequence, very few Papago even started high 
school, much less finished it. 

I think much improvement would come if they had more 
realistic — you know, you have to question the realism of their 
standards inasmuch as they are so inconsistent among the 
different mines. If a guy can work out at a sixth grade education 
in one mine doing identically the same thing in another mine 


it would appear that he should work out over there. But he can't 
even start without the sheepskin. 

Mr. Powell. Given the location of these mines, some of which 
are near, some of which are on reservations, are there any train- 
ing programs available to prepare Indians for work with the 
mining companies? 

Mr. Shepherd. Entry level jobs, no. After the people have been 
hired, there is some training in the mines but — 

Mr. Powell. If the companies really had a commitment to hire 
Indians, wouldn't you, in light of your experience as a personnel 
officer and an industrial relations person, wouldn't you think that 
they would provide training programs for the entry level? 

Mr. Shepherd. I always did, yes, sir. I think the majority of 
companies that certainly can afford this have done it all over the 

Mr. Powell. Given the population, the lack of education and 
the need for employment, could you have an effective affirmative 
action program without having such training programs? 

Mr. Shepherd. No. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. On these Hecla and Asarco leases which 
are exploiting reservation resources, I can understand that you 
might have difficulty in trying to enforce the oral part of a 
written agreement that 50 percent of the employed be Indians. 
Have you explored the possibility, however, of rescinding the 
lease if in fact this misrepresentation was made — induced by the 
misrepresentation — and seek to set aside this lease in a Federal 
court? Have you looked into that? 

Mr. Shepherd. To whom are you directing it? 

Commissioner Ruiz. I'm directing my inquiry to you. 

Mr. Shepherd. I have no authority in that area. I do not 
work for the tribe. I can't answer it. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Have you checked into that (to Mr. Es- 
calante) ? 

Mr. Escalante. No, sir. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Do you have attorneys? 

Mr. Escalante. Yes, we have a pueblo attorney. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Has anything been done with respect to 
this alleged misrepresentation by the lawyers ? 

Mr. Escalante. Not that I know of. 

Commissioner Ruiz. That's all. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. No questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, gentlemen. You may be 

Before we call the next witness, I would like to acknowledge 


the presence at this hearing this morning of the following mem- 
bers of the Arizona Civil Rights Commission: 

The vice chairman, Mr. Manuel Matta. Will you stand, please? 

Mrs. John F. Sullivan. 

Mrs. Etta Dalton. 

Mrs. Genevieve Harper. 

Mr. Andrew Hoge. 

And Mr. Ford Smith, the executive director. 

We are pleased to have you. 

Our next witness will be Mr. William Gremley, Project Di- 
rector, Indian Special Emphasis Program, OFCC. 

Will you and the young lady who is accompanying you, if 
she is going to be giving any statements — 

Mr. Gremley. This is Miss Gwen Crockett, a Department of 
Labor solicitor. 

Commissioner Freeman. Miss Crockett, will you be giving 
testimony also ? 

Miss Crockett. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will you be sworn? 

(Whereupon, Mr. William Gremley and Miss Gwendolyn Crock- 
ett were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and testified as fol- 
lows: ) 





Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 

Mr. Smith will begin the questioning. 

Mr. Gremley. Madam Chairperson, I have a statement which 
I would like to read on behalf — 

Mr. Smith. Before you start, will you state your names and 
occupations for the record? 

Mr. Gremley. William Gremley, Contract Compliance Officer 
and Director of the Special American Indian Project of the 
Office of Federal Contract Compliance. 

Miss Crockett. I am Gwendolyn Crockett, U.S. Department 
of Labor, Office of the Solicitor. 

Mr. Smith. You say you have a brief statement? 

Mr. Gremley. I have a statement on behalf of Philip J. Davis, 
Acting Director of OFCC. 

Mr. Smith. About how long do you think it will take to give 
that statement ? 

Mr. Gremley. Possibly 10 minutes. 

Mr. Smith. And that statement will explain the Indian Special 
Emphasis Program that you work with ? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. And we would like it to be in the record. 


I have made a few changes, and I can have it retyped and de- 
livered to the Staff Director's office next week. 

Mr. Smith. Excuse me just one second. Could you summarize 
that statement, Mr. Gremley? To the extent that it has a bearing" 
on our information with respect to the rest of this record we'd 
like to hear it. To the extent that it is just statistical it might 
take too much time. 

Are you familiar with the contents of that statement? 
Mr. Gremley. Yes, I have read it. 

In other words, you would rather me not read the entire 

Mr. Powell. We will receive the entire statement in the rec- 
ord, but we would prefer a summary for purposes of facilitating 
hearing all the witnesses today. 

Mr. Gremley. Then I will have to extemporize. 
Mr. Smith. In other words, we would like you to describe for 
us the Indian Special Emphasis Program. 
Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Mr. Smith. And to the extent the statement answers that 
question, we'd like you to respond to that. But with regard to 
the rest of it, if you would submit it for the record. 

Mr. Gremley. Okay. The contract compliance program of the 
Federal Government, as you know, is approximately 10 years old. 
But it was not until late 1969, 1970 that compliance targeting 
took place and programming took place concerning American 

In the early years of the program, the emphasis was on 
blacks and mostly in urban areas. In the middle '60's emphasis 
was directed toward people of Spanish surname. And then in 
the late '60's, of course, female discrimination became a very 
great concern of the Commission with the amendment of the 
Executive Order. 

Now we are engaged in a program that is reservation-directed. 
Mr. Powell. With respect to this program, was an effort made 
to recruit a qualified Indian to serve as project director of the 
Indian Special Emphasis Program? 

Mr. Gremley. No, although we have tried to get qualified 
Indians on our staff. 

Mr. Powell. Do you think that it might be a good thing to 
try to get an Indian? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. Yes, very much so. 
Mr. Powell. You would recommend that? 
Mr. Gremley. Yes. 
Mr. Powell. Continue. 

Mr. Gremley. The program began in 1971, and it was based 
on the idea of selecting key reservations, with certain limita- 


tions because of staff limitations. We targeted in on reservations 
with a labor force of 300 or more. 

Now, I'm well aware there are many smaller reservations with 
severe unemployment problems, but we just have so many 
people — well, I'm the person doing- the work, and — 

Mr. Powell. This program, is it a Government-funded pro- 

Mr. Gremley. Yes, it's part of an OFCC program, yes. 

Mr. Powell. You have a contractor that is undertaking its 
operation ? 

Mr. Gremley. No, no. We do it ourselves. 

Mr. Powell. What about requiring the contractors themselves 
to undertake such programs particularly in areas of high Indian 
concentration? What about requiring training programs on the 
part of contractors who have facilities on reservations ? 

Mr. Gremley. Well, frequently that becomes a condition of a 
compliance review. 

Mr. Powell. You do not require — 

Mr. Gremley. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Powell. So when you review the plans of any company 
that doesn't have such training programs they would not be 
approved ? Is that correct ? 

Mr. Gremley. Not necessarily. The question of whether a com- 
pliance officer has a — can make a training program mandatory — 
is a difficult one to answer. But certainly — 

Mr. Powell. Well, you can require that they meet certain 
goals and timetables? 

Mr. Gremley. Oh, yes, yes. Yes. That is mandatory. 

Mr. Powell. So that if you need a training program to meet 
those goals and timetables, wouldn't it be a question of whether 
this would be approved ? 

Mr. Gremley. Such a commitment or agreement could be ob- 
tained, yes. 

The program began in 1971 with what we call a pilot review. 
We selected — we have a universe right now of 19 reservations 
where we know there's approximately 91 to 100 contractor fa- 
cilities with work forces in excess of 100. We do not, of course, 
go much below that type of a work force. 

We began in September of 1971 with a review at the Fort 
Hall reservation in Idaho near Pocatello. Since that time we 
have reviewed — these are pilot reviews — at Crow reservation, 
Colville, Flat Head, Wind River, Nez Perce, Lummi, and Papago. 

A pilot review is actually a generating review. We do the one 
review in cooperation with the appropriate compliance agency, 
and while we are there we relate to the tribe and try to ascertain 
the number and extent of the other government contractors on 
or near the reservation. Then when I return from such a visit, 


we get letters out to the appropriate Government agencies, com- 
pliance agencies, directing them to schedule those additional com- 
pliance reviews. 

Mr. Powell. Do you also make it a part of your policy to get 
in touch with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Where there are non-Federal contractors ? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. You work in close compliance with them ? 

Mr. Gremley. With non-Federal contractors, did you say? 

Mr. Powell. Yes, where there is not a Federal contractor, 
where the employer on or near a reservation is not a Federal 
contractor, I take it you get in touch with the Equal Employment 
Opportunity Commission ? 

Mr. Gremley. No, no. We have taken no program action along 
those lines. 

Mr. Powell. Would that be a good idea? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes, it would. It would be a good idea to do that. 

Mr. Powell. I understand that there's been no review on the 
Navajo reservation, which has the highest — 

Mr. Gremley. Not yet. 

Mr. Powell. — Indian labor force. Is that — 

Mr. Gremley. It has the highest what? 

Mr. Powell. Highest Indian labor force. 

Mr. Gremley. That's true. A review on the Navajo reservation 
is scheduled in January. 

We have done ten of these pilot reviews on eight reservations, 
and these reviews have generated an additional 66 other reviews 
which agencies have been directed to schedule. And we intend to 
continue with the program throughout the calendar year of 
1973. We have 11 other reservations that are scheduled for the 
calendar year of 1973. 

In terms of results — well, I'd like to say what, basically, the 
problem is. The problem is severe and appalling unemployment 
rates. We did a great deal of research and study on this matter 
using BIA sources, tribal sources, OEO CAP program sources 
on reservations, and so on. 

As a general rule, you can conclude that, to my knowledge, 
with two exceptions in the country, the Choctaw reservation in 
Mississippi and the Seminole reservation in Florida, the range 
is 20 to 85 percent of unemployment. On the Navajo that you 
mentioned, I think it's roughly around 35 percent. 

These are appalling conditions. 

Mr. Powell. One of the things that we have uncovered in 
the course of our hearings, both here and in New Mexico, is that 
many Government contractors seem to feel that by having a 
sufficient number of blacks and a sufficient number of Mexican- 


Americans — this is particularly true in New Mexico with con- 
tractors such as the Sonia Company I believe, Los Alamos — 

Mr. Gremley. Sonia? 

Mr. Powell. Los Alamos is the one I recall. 

Mr. Gremley. Yes, I'm familiar with Los Alamos. 

Mr. Powell. We find that while minority employment might 
seem to be adequate in terms of minorities such as Mexican- 
Americans, especially in New Mexico, when you look at the In- 
dian component it's virtually non-existent with almost no Indians 
at any significantly high level. 

Do you feel that a contractor who has failed to provide equal 
employment opportunity to Indians can get by with an affirma- 
tive action plan simply because he has other minorities em- 
ployed ? 

Mr. Gremley. He shouldn't. But that would depend on whether 
or not he has had a compliance review, and, of course, it would 
depend on the ability and the dedication of the compliance officer. 

Mr. Powell. So that a compliance review with an officer 
carrying out his duty where Indians are not employed and where 
there's no training programs designed to look to meeting a goal 
within a reasonable time — that would not be approved? It would 
be subject to review? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes, if I were doing such a review and the con- 
tractor gave me an affirmative action program and it did not have 
goals and timetables for American Indians and there was a sig- 
nificant American Indian population nearby, I would not accept 
such an affirmative action program. 

Mr. Powell. So that we have a general employment picture 
here, both in the private and State sector, but looking at the 
private sector where there are Federal contractors, where there 
are Indians not employed in anything like the numbers one 
would expect in terms of their percentage of the population, we 
can conclude that the Office of Federal Contract Compliance will 
look very closely at these Federal contractors? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. — And where they are failing their affirmative 
action programs would not be approved? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes, that is — well — let's put it this way: You do 
a compliance review. You find an affirmative action program not 
acceptable. Well, if before you leave the plant you can get the 
commitment to have it acceptable, then it does become acceptable. 

I'd like to read, since you kind of touched on it, at least one 
paragraph from this statement. 

We identified contractors for 19 reservations, a total of 91, 
with work forces ranging from 100 to 3,000. The total employ- 
ment of these 91 facilities is approximately 40,000. And Ameri- 
can Indians represent only 3.5 percent of that total employment. 


The total Indian population on these 19 reservations — this 
excludes the Navajo reservation, incidentally — was 61,412, with 
a labor force of 18,323. 

Unemployment on these reservations averages 42 percent with 
a range- from 11 percent to 77 percent. 

So that gives some dimension of the problem. 

Now, I could make a comment on progress to date, but you have 
to keep this point in mind: The vast majority of the reviews that 
I have been talking about, both the pilot reviews and the reviews 
generated out of the program, are contractors who have never 
been reviewed. These are initial reviews. 

Mr. Powell. Can I ask you a couple of questions about those 
employers ? 

Mr. Gremley. Sure. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Gremley, on the basis of your experience, 
what observations can you make regarding the attitudes of em- 
ployers bordering reservations toward the problems faced by 
Indians in securing meaningful employment? 

Mr. Gremley. In my judgment, most employers, contractor or 
non-contractor, on or near reservations, are indifferent to the 
employment problems of American Indians. There may be a 
spectrum of prejudice there from low to high, but "indifference" 
I think would be a good word that would characterize it. 

There might be a few, of course, who might be contemptuous 
and completely discriminatory. There might be a few, a very 
few, who would be positive and welcoming and would take affirm- 
ative action. I haven't run across too many of those. 

Mr. Powell. What about Indian involvement in labor unions? 
Are there any barriers presented by the lack of Indian involve- 
ment? Is there any Indian involvement in labor unions? 

Mr. Gremley. Well, I think you asked me about problems 
Indians face, Mr. Powell. You want my opinion on that? 

Mr. Powell. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I thought you were finished. 

Mr. Gremley. This indifference, discrimination, transporta- 
tion, commuting problems, lack of bus lines, lack of roads, which 
has been mentioned before ; on some reservations, lack of skills — 
not all because skills inventories have been made on several 
reservations and many skills have been revealed. Among older 
persons, particularly, a lower education level will inhibit skill 
acquiring or promotion. Younger Indians lack motivation because 
of years of disillusionment with many of these problems. 

Testing, the whole area of testing, is a problem that American 
Indians face, and I might say most minority groups in America 
face the problem of testing, which too frequently has screened 
people out rather than screened people in. 

Another problem they may face is the lack of technical as- 
sistance regarding job development on reservations. 


Your next question was involving labor unions? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Mr. Gremley. Okay. Distance from the home where they live 
on the reservation to the labor union office. I think the Navajo 
reservation would be a good example where there would be a 
hundred, two hundred miles to go to Prescott or Flagstaff or 
even Phoenix to register and sign up with a given labor union. 

Money. Initiation fees for many craft unions in particular is a 
pretty expensive proposition. 

And possibly, although there may be many exceptions to this, 
again indifference and discrimination by labor union officials, 
although I do concede many I have met are sensitive to these 
particular problems. 

I would say those are basically the three barriers. 

Mr. Powell. Are you concerned at all with the provision 
which gives Indians preference for jobs on or near reservations? 
How do you interpret the term "near" with regard to preference 
extended to Indians on or near reservations? Are you concerned 
with that at all? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes, very, very much. "Near" becomes almost 
arbitrary in deciding what is the commuting distance. And this 
is difficult. For some people — I know a person who commutes on 
a given reservation 40 miles a day, 80 miles round trip, Indian 
worker — well, some may not want to do that. 

But I would say, given the existence of good roads or an ade- 
quate road system, that 40 miles — many Indians will be very 
willing to commute that kind of distance. 

Now, with reference to Indian preference clause on 
reservations — that's all we can talk about there — many leases 
that private employers have with tribal councils contain the 
Indian preference clause, Indian employment preference clause as 
was indicated earlier. However, my judgment of it is critical. 
The clause generally states, "Indians shall be given preference if 
qualified," and that is an open door for the contractor to say, 
"We can't hire you because you are not qualified." 

I think the clause — that phrase — should be eliminated or the 
question of qualifications should be a joint matter between the 
tribe and the contractor, one or the other. For that reason I do not 
have too much faith in Indian preference clauses. 

There's another aspect that I think is important that is relevant 
to employment, and that is the existence of 35 industrial parks 
on reservations. Thirty-five reservations have industrial parks. 

Mr. Powell. Is that the State of Arizona? Are you talking 
generally? It's all right. For the record I just want it clear what 
you're talking about. 

Mr. Gremley. I'm talking generally. I don't know if there is one 
in the State of Arizona. Perhaps — 


Mr. Powell. Certainly there are some in New Mexico, and I 
believe there may be some in Arizona. 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. There are some in Arizona. 

Mr. Gremley. I have seen one on Wind River which is beautiful. 
All utilities in. Huge water tower. A spur line. And no takers so 

And these industrial parks develop, naturally, leases between 
the tribal councils and the people they can bring in to build 
factories and plants. But as a generality this, I think, would be a 
very basic responsibility of American industry: To be more 
sensitive to the establishment of sites on reservations. 

Mr. Powell. With respect to this preference clause, has any 
contractor ever been proved to be in violation of the Indian 
preference clause? 

Mr. Gremley. Well, Mr. Powell, OFCC has no responsibility 
for the Indian preference clause. 

Mr. Powell. I see. 

Mr. Gremley. We operate under the seven paragraphs of the 
nondiscrimination clause. 

Mr. Powell. I see. With respect to construction on Indian reser- 
vations, you might not be able to answer this question, but I 
understand that there is a right-to-work law in the State of 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. I further understand that Indians who have 
either rights under a preference clause or rights under a lease 
obligation to work are often not permitted to get jobs by virtue 
of some kind of labor list, some kind of hiring hall provision. 
Are you familiar with this problem? 

Mr. Gremley. No, I'm not, Mr. Powell. I would not — 

Mr. Powell. I have no further questions, Madam Chairman. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Gremley, with respect to your 
reply to the question concerning the definition of "near a reserva- 
tion" and the difficulty with respect to determining the com- 
muting area, I wonder if your office has ever inquired about the 
distance that the non-Indian may commute? 

Mr. Gremley. Oh, yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. And that if, for instance, there are 
non-Indians who commute 75 or 100 miles, if this may not be a 
good way of determining what is "near" a reservation? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. A compliance officer, if he knows his busi- 
ness, will inquire into this matter during the compliance review 
and make a comparison. In other words, if a given contractor were 
to recruit in a community 60 miles away from his plant and 
does not recruit in an American Indian reservation that is 60 


miles away, we would ask why not. If you can recruit for one, 
you can recruit for the other. 

Commissioner Freeman. Do you have information, examples, 
that you could make available to this Commission with respect 
to those cases ? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. I'd have to go back into the various review 
reports that have come out of the Indian program, and I think I 
possibly could make some examples available. 

Commissioner Freeman. Now, the other point that concerns 
me is the phrase "if qualified." I have been on this Commission, 
have been a member of it, for about 8V2 years, and I remember 
back in February of 1965 when the Commission held hearings in 
Jackson, Mississippi. In response to our questions as to why there 
were no Negroes or blacks, the answer was, "We can't find any 
qualified Negroes or qualified blacks." And then in Montgomery, 
Alabama, in May 1968 they couldn't find any "qualified Negroes" 
or "qualified blacks." 

And then in December of 1968 we went to San Antonio, Texas. 
We were studying the problems of Mexican Americans. And 
there was the same picture. 

I feel like I'm hearing a broken record. 

Mr. Gremley. You are. 

Commissioner Freeman. And they couldn't find any "quali- 
fied Mexican Americans or Chicanos." 

And in February of this year we were in New York, and they 
couldn't find any "qualified Puerto Ricans." 

And today you can't find any "qualified Indians." 

What disturbs me is that the word "qualified" only gets put in 
front of a member of a minority or an ethnic. The assumption 
seems to be that all whites are qualified. You never hear about 
anybody looking for a "qualified white person." 

Mr. Gremley. I agree with you. 

Commissioner Freeman. And, you see, it seems that the word 
"qualified" sort of dangles as an excuse for discriminating 
against minorities. I'm pursuing this with you because the Office 
of Federal Contract Compliance, it seems to me, has a real re- 
sponsibility here to get to the guts of the issue. 

Mr. Gremley. May I comment? 

Commissioner Freeman. Yes, you may. 

Mr. Gremley. I agree with you fully, Madam Chairperson. 
This has been one of the syndromes of employment discrimina- 
tion, the history of employment discrimination, against all mi- 
nority groups in this country. And the fact that it is now utilized 
as a syndrome vis-a-vis American Indians is not startling or 
surprising. Our process to overcome it is to establish with the 
contractor and the tribal employment person. Usually every 
tribe has a tribal employment person, sometimes it's a direct 


employee of the tribe, sometimes it's a BIA employment as- 
sistance officer, sometimes it's a CAP program job developer, and 
so on. But to establish this is a must for every compliance review 
we undertake — a productive, fruitful and continuing relation- 
ship between the contractor and the tribe so that we get over 
this business of "if qualified" and have the contractor rely on the 
tribal job developers to find the kind of people he wants or to 
aid him in setting up training programs of one kind or another. 

But your comments merely expanded and emphasized my 
previous comment that I object to this word "if qualified" in 
Indian preference clauses. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz? 

Miss Crockett. I'd like to make a point. 

Commissioner Ruiz. You go right ahead. 

Miss Crockett. I think there was a question asked regarding 
the Navajo reservation, and the response was that there had not 
been a compliance review conducted on the Navajo reservation. 

Well, in fact, there was a compliance review, I think, during 
the latter part of 1971 that involved the regional office of OFCC 
and not the national office. 

The problems of the Navajo reservation, you may be familiar 
with, grew out of an attempt to enforce the Indian preference 
clause. Of course, there are other problems, too, regarding the 
home town plan that was submitted and initially approved by 
OFCC, and there were some problems in the implementation of 
the plan, so that now the State of Arizona does operate under bid 
conditions that have goals and timetables that are applicable to 

The compliance review that was conducted was participated 
in by an OFCC representative, and it's my understanding that at 
that time there was no finding of non-compliance with reference 
to the bid conditions, but in terms of the terms and conditions 
of the lease agreement that the contractors had entered into 
with the tribal council as far as the Indian employment preference 
was concerned, those problems seem to be in the stage of negotia- 

We have not received any definite information regarding the 
final solutions. But we have been told that they will keep us 
informed with reference to whatever agreements they work out. 

But this, perhaps, represents one of our first involvements 
with the application of the Indian preference clause, and, as we 
said before, it is not the responsibility of OFCC in the enforce- 
ment of the Indian preference clause, but we have agreed to work 
with the tribal council groups when our opinion is requested 
regarding the drafting of an effective clause that will be designed 
to protect as well as implement the Indian employment pref- 
e rence. 


Mr. Powell. Even though it's not your responsibility to en- 
force Indian preference, in evaluating affirmative action plans — 
efforts of employers under affirmative action plans, particularly 
with respect to whether they have used their best efforts to carry 
out their goals and timetables — the preference clause gives them 
a handle, does it not, — 

Miss Crockett. Yes, it does. 

Mr. Powell. — in evaluating whether or not they have carried 
it out? So you look to the extent to which they have made use of 
the preference clause? Would you not? 

Miss Crockett. We certainly look to the extent to which they 
have carried out their commitments to us as well as the fact that 
if it is possible for us to assist in the enforcement of a clause 
that becomes a part of their contractual agreement with the 
Indian tribes or whatever the local governmental agency repre- 
senting the Indians, then we will do what we can to assist in 

Mr. Powell. I see. Thank you. 

Mr. Gremley. Mr. Powell, a comment on that. As you know, 
there can be a dovetailing, because Revised Order 4 does give 
the compliance officer the right to demand Indian goals and 
timetables — or for any specific minority group. 

Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Ruiz. 

Commissioner. Ruiz. Even if it's not your responsibility for 
enforcement, based upon your reviews, have you ever recom- 
mended that punitive action be taken for contract noncompliance 
or contract compliance violation either by the Department of 
Justice or by the particular Federal agency which is giving out 
a contract involving Federal funding? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. There is a procedure in the compliance 
process called "show cause." And show cause notices then are 
carried out by an appropriate contract compliance agency re- 
sponsible for the given type of industry. Yes, this has happened. 

Commissioner Ruiz. You have done that? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. On many occasions? 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. And as a consequence of that have you 
gone as far as I have just mentioned? Has the resulting — 

Mr. Gremley. No, no. 

Commissioner Ruiz. How far has it progressed? Simply by 
making an agreement? 

Mr. Gremley. In — 

Commissioner Ruiz. Have these agreements been satisfactory 
to you ? 

Mr. Gremley. As yet we have no returns on them, Mr. Com- 


Commissioner Ruiz. You have never made an agreement thus 
far — 

Mr. Gremley. With the agency. 

Commissioner Ruiz. — with an order to show cause with re- 
spect to a contractor for noncompliance with a contract? 

Mr. Gremley. In this particular case the OFCC directs the 
compliance agency to issue the show cause. These have taken 
place in the last 4 or 5 months. We do not yet have returns. Let 
me put it that way. It's too early yet to assess whether or not 
the agency has worked out an acceptable program with a given 
contractor. But we expect to get that information and results 
in the near future. 

Commissioner Ruiz. As I understand your testimony, you 
cannot name one favorable settlement made thus far? 

Mr. Gremley. That is right, sir. 

Commissioner Ruiz. We have heard frequently references to 
the part that Indian cultural differences play in the attempt of 
Indians to compete with non-Indians for jobs. What responsi- 
bility, in your opinion, do private employers operating on or near 
reservations have to sensitize their employment personnel to 
some of these differences and to overcome conflicts that may be 
presented ? 

Mr. Gremley. I would say they have a full responsibility to 
so do and to become more sensitive to what has been called 
cultural differences. 

Let me give you one example on one reservation. It's a very large 
reservation in the Northwest. The contractor complained to me 
that Indian people did not call up in the morning when they 
weren't coming to work. He overlooked a couple of things. Number 
one, only 5 percent of the people on the reservation had telephones. 
Number two, it was a big reservation, and a neighbor might be half 
a mile away. Well, it's very difficult to get out of bed if you're 
sick, and walk a half a mile. 

But he overlooked another very essential cultural difference. 
For the most part, in terms of an Indian cultural attitude, In- 
dians do not like to bother people, and the idea of going to your 
neighbor and asking to make a phone call is not part of a tradition. 

I pointed these things out to him, and hopefully he'll be more 
sensitive in the future. 

One of the ways we have tried to overcome this insensitivity is 
if an employer would say, "Well, Indians are irresponsible. They 
don't call up, and they go fishing, and all that sort of thing," I 
have arranged for a tribal committee to relate to the contractor 
and I have obtained a commitment from the contractor to visit 
that reservation once a month, and if he has problems of that 
type to bring the problems to the tribe and let the tribal em- 


ployment committee help him with them. We have found that 
this particular technique has worked. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Other than that particular instance 
where you have the employer perhaps go out and visit the tribe to 
learn something about sensitivity, do you have any others in 
mind that you have requested so that programs in affirmative 
action situations may, as part of the affirmative action 
program — 

Mr. Gremley. I have nothing else, Mr. Commissioner, but I 
might add that this is a young program, relatively speaking, and 
hopefully as we go along and get more experience we will de- 
velop more techniques and sophistication along these lines. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. Just one question, Mr. Gremley. When OFCC asks 
Federal contracting agencies to issue show cause letters, suppose 
in your best judgment the result of that show cause is that the 
contract needs to be terminated. Whose responsibility is it to 
terminate it? 

Mr. Gremley. It could be either OFCC or the agency to take 
action. What would follow a show cause, according to Order No. 4, 
Revised Order No. 4, as you know, is a 10-day public notice, and 
that could be the next step. Basically it would be an agency re- 

MR. Buggs. Have you had any difficulty in having Federal 
agencies issue show cause letters? 

Miss Crockett. Well, there have been some instances in which 
some of the compliance agencies have been reluctant to issue 
such show cause notices, and in those instances the Office of 
Federal Contract Compliance can assume responsibility and pur- 
sue the formal remedies of debarment or cancellation or termina- 

Mr. Buggs. Have any of those things ever happened on OFCC's 

Miss Crockett. Not in terms of our American Indian program. 
It has not. We have not been involved enough in the construction 
or the non-construction industries regarding reservations and on 
or near reservation problems. 

Mr. Buggs. On the basis of your present knowledge of the 
employment situation of Indians on or near reservations, and if 
show cause letters are required, and if as you have indicated 
they have been or are returned and no substantial improvement 
has been indicated, is OFCC going to recommend termination of 
contracts or debarment? 

Miss. Crockett. Definitely. 

Mr. Gremley. Yes. 
Miss. Crockett. Yes. 


Mr. Buggs. Thank you. 

Mr. Gremley. Could I just make a comment about construc- 
tion? We have not yet formulated a construction universe of the 
multitude of construction projects taking place on Indian res- 
ervations. Many reservations have no significant non-construc- 
tion contractor sites within hundreds of miles. But on every 
reservation there is usually some construction taking place, and 
invariably it is Federal construction or federally-assisted con- 

We do make surveys when I do a pilot review of what construc- 
tion activities are ongoing or contemplated. Eventually we hope to 
establish an effective construction compliance program, and we 
will direct agencies to make compliance reviews of such projects. 

Miss Crockett mentioned the Navajo thing. And we have rec- 
ommended a review of Grand Coulee Dam in the Colville res- 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. The witnesses are ex- 

This hearing will be in recess for 10 minutes. 

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 

Commissioner Freeman. The hearing is called to order. Will 
everyone be seated ? 

I would like to call the following witnesses: Mr. D. H. Orr, 
Mr. John Breen, Mr. Jim H. Hunter, Mr. Dick Glover. Will you 
come forward, please? 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I believe some of these wit- 
nesses are accompanied by counsel, and counsel should identify 
himself and indicate in what capacity he is appearing. 

Mr. Sievwright. Ralph Sievwright, attorney for Hecla. At- 
torney in Phoenix with Twitty, Sievwright & Mills. 

Mr. Boland. My name is John M. Boland, Jr. I am an attorney 
in Phoenix, and I represent Mr. Breen, Mr. Orr, and their 
employer, the Phelps Dodge Corporation. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will the individuals who will be 
giving testimony remain standing and be sworn ? 

(Whereupon, Messrs. D. H. Orr, John Breen, Jim H. Hunter, 
and Dick Glover were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and 
testified as follows: ) 






Commissioner Freeman. Thank you. You may be seated. 
Mr. Powell, you may proceed. 


Mr. Powell. Will the witnesses sit near microphones? The 
attorneys can sit on the side. 

Beginning with the witness on my left, the first witness on 
my left — 

Commissioner Freeman. Excuse me, please. I just want to be 
sure that the attorney who is sitting near the end will watch 
his chair. We would not want you falling off backward, sir. 

Mr. Boland. Thank you very much. I will. Perhaps we need 
some levity anyway. Maybe I could fal backwards. (Laughter.) 

Mr. Powell. Would you each please state your name, address, 
and position for the record beginning with the gentleman on 
my left? 

Mr. Hunter. My name is Jim Hunter. I'm Lake Shore Proj- 
ect Manager for Hecla Mining Company. I live in Casa Grande, 

Mr. Glover. My name is Richard D. Glover, Hecla Mining 
Company, Lake Shore Project Personnel Manager. I live in Casa 

Mr. Orr. My name is David H. Orr. I am Manager for Phelps 
Dodge Corporation, New Corneila Branch, Ajo, Arizona. 

Mr. Breen. I am John Edward Breen. I live in Ajo, Arizona, 
at 121 Lamina Avenue. I am the employment agent for the 
New Corneila Branch of Phelps Dodge Corporation. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Orr, we have heard earlier testimony that 
with respect — You have a facility near the Papago reservation, 
do you not? 

Mr. Orr. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. We have heard testimony with respect to that 
facility that you have a total of 1,258 employees and that only 
96 of those employees are Indian. Is that correct? Is that sub- 
stantially correct? 

Mr. Orr. Approximately correct. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Hunter, we have heard testimony that you 
have a facility on the Papago reservation. Is that correct? 

Mr. Hunter. That's correct. 

Mr. Powell. And that employed at that facility are some 500 
people and only 50 of those people are Indian. Is that correct? 

Mr. Hunter. That is correct at the present time. 

Mr. Powell. Now, this is a question for both Mr. Orr and Mr. 
Hunter. You gentlemen are both in charge of relatively large opera- 
tions, one which borders and the other which is located directly 
on one of the most economically depressed Indian reservations 
in the country. We have heard testimony here today that Papago 
Indians share very little in the employment opportunities pre- 
sented by the mining industry in the Papago area. Due to your 
proximity to the reservation, do you feel any sense of community 
obligation to provide employment opportunities to Indian people? 


Mr. Orr? 

Mr. Orr. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Well, do you feel that you are carrying out that 
obligation? Do you feel that the employment pattern we have 
just indicated carries out that obligation? 

Do you think that 96 employees in an area which is predomi- 
nantly Indian or at least significantly Indian in your area is carry- 
ing out that obligation ? 

Do you understand the question ? 

Mr. Orr. I'm not sure that I do. 

Mr. Powell. Well, you employ, I would say, something like 7 
percent. Is that right? Ninety-six employees of a total employ- 
ment workforce of some 1,258? Do you think that's adequate em- 
ployment opportunity for Indians? 

Mr. Orr. Apparently not. 

Mr. Powell. Apparently? Don't you have a view? 

Mr. Orr. The percentage of our Indian employment is merely 
an accident of the way Indians have come, presented themselves 
to us to seek jobs. 

Mr. Powell. Well, would you care to elaborate? Would you 
care to elaborate on that? 

Mr. Orr. Indians are treated like any other person. 

Mr. Powell. Well, we have heard testimony contrary to that. 
We have heard testimony about stereotypes and what not. But 
don't you have an obligation to take affirmative action to see 
to it that members of minority groups are afforded an equal em- 
ployment opportunity ? 

Mr. Orr. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Well, in what respects, if any, are you under- 
taking to carry out that obligation? We have heard testimony, 
for example, that you have no training programs for entry level 
positions. We have heard testimony, for example, that some em- 
ployers require high school diplomas for jobs which don't re- 
quire — which presumably don't require — high school diplomas be- 
cause other employers employ people at that level without a 
high school diploma. What is your policy regarding your lower 
level jobs, your lower skilled jobs? Do you require a high school 
diploma for all your entry level employees? 

You might want your personnel manager to speak to that. 

Mr. Orr. He can be more accurate than I can on that. 

Mr. Breen. We do not require a high school diploma for em- 
ployment at the New Corneila Branch. 

Mr. Powell. What steps do you take to see to it that Indians 
get an opportunity for entry level positions ? 

Mr. Breen. As Mr. Orr previously stated, we attempt to 
treat the Indians and everyone else exactly the same. 

Mr. Powell. Well, you don't — apparently you don't under- 


stand what the law is. Indians are members of a minority group. 
They are in a depressed area. They have little educational op- 
portunity. Yet under the law, under Title VII, where you have a 
low utilization figure and where you have a history of not employ- 
ing minorities, you are required, are you not, to take affirmative 
action ? 

Among the kind of affirmative action you are required to take 
is training programs. You are required to make a survey of your 
labor force. You are required to see whether people in that labor 
force, particularly minority people, are underutilized. 

I tell you that in my opinion you have an underutilization 
of Indians, and I want to know to what extent you are address- 
ing yourself to that. 

Now, you have been very mute here. Would you respond ? 

Mr. Breen. Yes, I'd be happy to, Mr. Powell. We did — we have 
an affirmative action program, and we have set our goals and 
timetables, and we are doing the best that we can to meet these 
goals and timetables. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have a training program for entry level 
for potential Indian employees? 

Mr. Breen. You mean a training program that would be 
given to people before they are offered employment ? 

Mr. Powell. A training program that would be given to people 
either before they are employed or — no, either before they are 
employed or after they are employed. Do you have any training 
program at all ? 

Mr. Breen. Yes, we have training programs. We have an ap- 
prenticeship program. It's registered with the Bureau of Ap- 
prenticeship Training. We have welder learner programs, arma- 
ture winder programs. 

Mr. Powell. Well, how many people are in your training 
program for your entry level positions ? 

Mr. Breen. We do not have any training program for en- 
trance level people. We don't train them before we hire them. 
They have to be on our payroll before they could qualify for 

Mr. Powell. Well, — 

Mr. Breen. We do not train people before we hire them. 

Mr. Powell. Well, in hiring people you make some estimation, 
do you not, of whether or not with training they can qualify 
for positions ? 

Mr. Breen. That's right. 

Mr. Powell. Well, now, how many of those people — how many 
Indians — do you have in that category ? 

Mr. Breen. Well, I would say that our percentage of Indian 
hires per application is greater than it is for the general run of 
the population. 


Mr. Powell. Indian hires per application? 

Mr. Breen. Right. 

Mr. Powell. Presumably you don't have many applications, 
then, do you ? 

Mr. Breen. Yes, we do. We have very few applications from 
Indians. And I think the test — 

Mr. Powell. You say you have very few applications from 
Indians, so you don't have very many? 

Mr. Breen. Right. As was testified earlier by Mr. Sonya 
Shepherd and Mr. Tony Escalante from the Papago Indian res- 
ervation, I think one of the biggest problems there is the roads, 
communications, these little villages. I think that's why they 
don't apply to us. There's no way for them to get there. 

Mr. Powell. Well, can you come — 

Mr. Breen. We cannot build roads on the reservation as far 
as I know. That should be a function of the Federal Government. 

Mr. Powell. Have you been in touch with the tribal leaders 
to make known that there are opportunities available at Phelps 
Dodge Corporation ? 

Mr. Breen. I sure have. This Mr. Shepherd that testified earlier, 
I urged him to send Indian applicants to us. I have talked to Mr. 
Tony Escalante and have done the same for him. He is the job 
developer on the Papago Indian reservation. 

We have made a sincere effort to hire Indian people. But we 
do not train anyone before offering them employment. 

Mr. Powell. Have you used mobile units to go out and seek 
Indian employees on the reservation ? 

Mr. Breen. No, we have not. Nor have we sent them anywhere. 

Mr. Powell. Is that a feasible method ? 

Mr. Breen. We are currently studying quite a few suggestions 
that were given to us by Mr. Gremley in an effort to more 
fully utilize the Indian people, and we are going to do everything 
that we can to meet all of his suggestions. 

Mr. Powell. Do you feel that your employment, your recruit- 
ing approach for Indians can be the same as your recruiting 
approach for non-Indians ? 

Mr. Breen. Well, I have recently discovered that it probably 

Mr. Powell. So that when you say you take the same posture 
with respect to Indians as you do toward others, you realize that 
you're not really complying with the requirements of the law? 

Mr. Breen. Well, I realize that we are going to have to change 
our policies in some areas by accepting the suggestions that were 
given to us by Mr. Gremley. 

Mr. Powell. Now, you say you have a training program. 

Mr. Breen. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Is that right? Now, is that training program and 


other devices used to promote Indians at the job categories at 
Phelps Dodge? 

Mr. Breen. No, it is not used to promote any one race. It's 
just used to promote our total workforce. 

Mr. Powell. Well, in the general promotion of people do you 
find that Indians are being promoted at a rate comparable to your 
other non-Indian employees, your some 1,100 non-Indian em- 
ployees ? 

Mr. Breen. No, they are not. 

Mr. Powell. Why is that? 

Mr. Breen. Well, that is something that we are trying to study 
and see if we can find out why it is. It might be their education 
or whether or not that they have applied for or want that kind 
of training. I really couldn't answer that. 

Mr. Powell. How long have you been in business at this 

Mr. Breen. I have had my present job since — 

Mr. Powell. Not you. How long has the company been there? 

Mr. Breen. Since 1934 approximately. 

Mr. Powell. Since 1934? Close to 40 years. And yet in all 
that time you haven't learned how to have a better employment 
pattern for the people who have been there for several hundred 
years and for the people who need employment? 

I would ask you this: Would you provide to the Commission 
within the next — what would you say would be a reasonable 
period? I understand that you're now undertaking to improve 
your employment pattern — is that correct? 

Mr. Breen. That is correct. 

Mr. Powell. Would you provide us with figures within the 
next 3 months showing what improvements you have made, been 
making and are making? Would you do that for us? And also 
a copy of your affirmative action plan? 

Mr. Boland. I will answer for Mr. Breen. To the extent that 
the Commission asks us for material, Mr. Powell, we will do 
everything we can to supply you with it. 

Mr. Powell. All right. We would certainly appreciate being 
kept apprised. First of all, I think we'd like to know your cur- 
rent employment picture. We would like details not only with 
respect to the numbers but with respect to the employment cate- 
gories. We'd like to know where Indians fall within your various 
job levels. We then would like to know over a period of time 
how that picture is changing. 

We would be more than glad to provide you with our views 
with respect to whether or not you are sufficiently carrying out 
your duties vis-a-vis Title VII. 

Mr. Hunter, would you care to answer that question? Given 
the fact that you have a facility directly on a reservation, do you 


feel any sense of community obligation to provide employment 
opportunities to Indian people? 

Mr. Hunter. Well, we certainly do. We have an agreement 
with the Papago tribe which we have more than lived up to. 

Mr. Powell. As I understand it, you have 500 employees on 
that facility, do you not? 

Mr. Hunter. That's correct. 

Mr. Powell. Yet you only have 50 Indian employees. Is that 

Mr. Hunter. That's correct. We have had many more than 
that, however. 

Mr. Powell. You now only have 50 employees ? 

Mr. Hunter. That's correct. 

Mr. Powell. Would you care to elaborate as to how you feel 
that 50 employees on the reservation where you are supposed to 
have a preference provision carries out your obligations to pro- 
vide equal employment opportunity to Indians? 

Mr. Hunter. Our contract — we have more than — I think we 
have more than 50 employees right now at the moment, but — 

Mr. Powell. Well, — 

Mr. Hunter. Our contract calls for — 

Mr. Powell. You're the manager of that operation, and I 
think that you or your personnel manager ought to know. 
We shouldn't have to guess here. What is your employment 
pattern ? 

Mr. Hunter. Our employment pattern for the Papagos at the 
moment is 51 as of, I think, yesterday. 

Mr. Powell. Fifty-one? I see. Fifty-one. 

Mr. Hunter. These people — 

Mr. Powell. Do you think that the difference between 50 and 
51 is so appreciable that you now are carrying out your obliga- 
tion? You have how many employees at that facility? 

Mr. Hunter. No, sir. I would like to say, though, that we 
have had many more employees than that, and they have gone 
because of absenteeism reasons and so forth and quit on their 

Mr. Powell. You have how many employees employed at that 
facility, Mr. Hunter? 

Mr. Hunter. I think there are 500 and about 50. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have any program designed to orient 
Indians to the requirements of your employees? Is there a pro- 
gram designed for employees in general? Or is there a program 
designed specifically for Indians ? 

Mr. Hunter. I'll let Mr. Glover answer that. He's the person 
in charge of personnel. 

Mr. Glover. Our program applies to all regardless of race. 
And to give you maybe a bird's-eye view of the picture at the 


Lake Shore project, I might say that what we do is, these non- 
experienced miners that are coming down the road, we feel it's 
best that they come to the facility and see what our operation 
looks like and the working conditions, especially underground. 

We give these people a tour, and they see whether or not they 
would like to work underground. Some people don't care to. And 
then if they are employable, they desire to go further, then we 
take it from there. 

Mr. Powell. When you say "employable," what do you mean? 

Mr. Glover. They meet the requirements, the pre-employment 

Mr. Powell. Well, now, what are these pre-employment re- 
quirements? You know, as Madam Chairman has said, the quali- 
fications are used to exclude minority people. You're not involved 
in that game, are you? 

Mr. Glover. Excluding minority people? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Mr. Glover. No, sir. This means — 

Mr. Powell. .Now, you have said — and I thought we had 
clarified that point — you said that your program is the same for 
all. Given the fact that Indians are underutilized, given the fact 
that you don't have a problem because you have a preference 
clause which permits you to discriminate in favor of Indians if 
you want to put it that way, you can't just rely on a program 
the same for all. Don't you feel that under the law you are required 
to have a program which orients Indians, that you are required 
to have a program that sees to it that to the extent that there 
are cultural differences that Indians are given the training 
which will enable them to comply with the requirements that you 
have for all employees? Isn't that correct? 

Mr. Glover. Let me go ahead on your first question that you 
asked to let you know what we are doing, because there's more 
to it. 

Once these people are employed, then they go into a mine train- 
ing program, and this is where the bulk of the people come in 
to work underground. So they are all given a mine training 
program that may take from 1 to 4 weeks depending upon the 
individual's capabilities. 

And the Indians are employed along with the rest of the group 
or any other race in the mine training program so that these 
people can go out into the production area and produce. 

This takes anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks for training. 

Mr. Powell. Do you employ Indians for anything other than 
going underground ? 

Mr. Glover. Yes, sir. Let me go a little further now. Okay? 

Out of the total of 51 that we have currently employed, we have 


14 what we would consider in the laboring class. We have 14 
in the skilled area. This is your crafts, and so forth. 

Mr. Powell. What would that be? Skilled area? What kind 

Mr. Glover. You're talking crafts in the miner classification. 
That would be the skilled area. We have one in the warehouse 
area, two in the surveying crew as aides — and we have one 
female typist. Now, the rest of the people fall in between in the 
semi-skilled area out of the 51. 

Mr. Powell. What attempt, if any, has been made to sen- 
sitize supervisory persons to the special characteristics and prob- 
lems of Indians ? Do you have such a program ? 

Mr. Glover. Not formalized program, no, but I think that in 
communicating with our supervisors when you get into the 
discipline area and what not, this comes out in working with — 

Mr. Powell. Have you ever had occasion to discipline a super- 
visor for discriminating against an Indian? 

Mr. Glover. No. 

Mr. Powell. Well, do you require that the various people who 
have units take action to improve their employment picture with 
respect to Indian employees ? 

Mr. Glover. I don't quite follow you there, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Do you require — You have various units within 
your company, do you not? 

Mr. Glover. Areas of responsibility and processes ? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Mr. Glover. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. What, if anything, are you doing to see to it 
that there are more Indians employed in these various opera- 
tions ? 

Mr. Glover. We are working with the tribal labor coordinator 
to help us in finding Indians who are qualified to move into 
certain areas. 

Mr. Powell. Well, what is it about your qualifications which 
results in so relatively small a percentage of Indian employees? 
Do you require a high school diploma for your entry level posi- 
tions ? 

Mr. Glover. No, sir. The problem is not one I think that you 
attach the word "qualified" to. I think you have to consider the 
number that are able to get to the mine in the first place. This 
presents a problem. 

Mr. Powell. You have transportation facilities — you provide 
a shuttle service to a town. Is that correct? 

Mr. Glover. No, sir. 

Mr. Powell. Earlier tesimony indicated you provided a shuttle 
service to Casa Grande. Is that incorrect ? 

Mr. Glover. That's incorrect to the extent — we are not involved 


in providing a shuttle service to and from Casa Grande. That's 
privately owned. 

Mr. Powell. And do you fund that in some way? 

Mr. Glover. No way. No, sir. 

Mr. Powell. How is it that there is shuttle service to Casa 
Grande and no shuttle service to the rest — 

Mr. Glover. I can't answer that. 

Mr. Powell. Don't you think you have a responsibility to look 
into that? You can't stand aside, can you? There's transporta- 
tion facilities to Casa Grande. You're an employer there, don't 
you think that if you are really interested in getting Indian 
employees you can look into the question of providing transporta- 
tion for those Indian employees? 

Mr. Glover. I think that has already been looked into in co- 
ordinating our efforts with Mr. Tony Escalante. 

Mr. Powell. You mean you have transportation now to — 

Mr. Glover. No, but this has been looked at, and the problem 
is there, and we are trying to help resolve it in any way possible. 

Mr. Powell. What is the problem? 

Mr. Glover. The problem of transportation for these Indians. 

Mr. Powell. Now, why is it that that problem hasn't been re- 
solved ? 

Mr. Hunter. Let me answer that. It's 56 miles to the next 
town south, and I think the remoteness of that area — It's just 
too long a trip. We had nothing to do with forming this bus line 
that came down. This was a private enterprise entirely. 

Mr. Powell. Fifty-six miles to the nearest place of high 
Indian concentration on the reservation? Is that what you're 

Mr. Hunter. There is a village of Santa Rosa in between, but 
the Sells area is 56 miles from the mine. 

Mr. Powell. The village of Santa Rosa — Are there many 
Indians there? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, but they drive themselves. It's quite close. 

Mr. Powell. How far is Casa Grande? 

Mr. Hunter. Thirty miles. 

Mr. Powell. Thirty miles? Don't you think that you could 
provide facilities to get Indians from the 56-mile area? 

Mr. Hunter. Tony Escalante and the Papago tribe people 
have looked into that quite thoroughly themselves. 

Mr. Powell. Well, perhaps maybe personnel from Hecla ought 
to look into it. 

Mr. Hunter. We didn't look into the furnishing of it from 
Casa Grande. 

Mr. Powell. But you don't have the same kind of obligations 
to the people in Casa Grande that you have to the Indians. 


You have a preference clause, and you have also indicated you 
have an agreement with the Indian tribes. 

Mr. Hunter. This shuttle bus that does come out from Casa 
Grande stops at the Indian reservation if anyone wants to get on. 

Mr. Powell. I'm told that there are Indians in the other di- 
rection. Isn't that true? 

Mr. Hunter. There's Indians in all directions from the mine. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Orr, does Phelps Dodge — Does 
the company — provide any company housing? 

Mr. Orr. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. How many units of housing are pro- 

Mr. Orr. I don't know the exact figure. It's slightly in excess 
of a thousand. 

Commissioner Freeman. A thousand units are provided? 
Could you tell us or describe for the Commission the housing 
that is provided the employees? Which employees reside in the 

Mr. Orr. All employees reside in housing who desire it and 
who qualify for it. 

Commissioner Freeman. Here we go again. 

How many of the Indian employees reside in the housing? 

Mr. Orr. The majority I would say. 

Commissioner Freeman. Do you know whether there is any 
difference in the housing units that are occupied by Indians and 
those that are occupied by those persons who are non-Indians? 

Mr. Orr. There is a difference. That is, that there is an active 
program to eliminate. 

Commissioner Freeman. An active program by whom to elim- 
inate what? 

Mr. Orr. By Phelps Dodge to eliminate substandard housing 
in A jo. 

Commissioner Freeman. Are you saying then that Phelps 
Dodge recognizes that its company-owned housing is substand- 

Mr. ORR. Certain of it is. The majority is not. 

Commissioner Freeman. Is the company-owned housing oc- 
cupied by the Indian employees substandard? 

Mr. Orr. That that was initially originally designated as 
Indian houses is substandard and is being eliminated by inte- 
grating the Indians into the other better housing. 

Commissioner Freeman. Has the company started any efforts 
to integrate the housing that it owns? 

Mr. ORR. The company is far along on such an effort. 

Commissioner Freeman. Could you indicate to us or give this 
Commission a report on the occupancy of all the housing, of all 


of the company-owned housing, and identify for us the extent to 
which there are any Indians remaining in substandard housing 
owned by Phelps Dodge? Could that information be provided to 
the Commission ? 

Mr. Orr. Yes. 

Commissioner Freeman. What would you imagine would be 
the time within which you could give this to us, sir? 

Mr. Orr. Two or 3 months. 

Commissioner Freeman. Could you indicate to us why it 
would take so long to count 1,100 — Why it would take so long 
to count 1,100 units? 

Mr. Boland. Madam Chairman, if you will tell us what you 
want and when you want it, you will have it. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. It seems to us 
the company, if it is aggressively reviewing its housing to deter- 
mine the extent to which it is substandard and it is aggressively 
engaging in a program of integration, that if it is so doing 
that at least the information that we would want could certainly 
be made available to us by January 1. 

Mr. Boland. Very good. We have been embarked on an active 
program since 1964. 

Commissioner Freeman. Well, I'm more disturbed, because 
that's 8 years, and if it has taken 8 years to integrate and im- 
prove substandard housing, then maybe we do need to put this 
deadline on it. 

Mr. Boland. We will make a complete report to you together 
with all the problems which are attendant upon the effort, Madam 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you very much. 

I would like to ask if Hecla Mining Company, Mr. Hunter — 
Mr. Hunter, does your company provide any housing for its 
employees ? 

Mr. Hunter. Absolutely none. 

Commissioner Freeman. You do not? 

I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Ruiz? 

Commissioner Ruiz. What is the highest job level held by an 
Indian at the Phelps Dodge? 

Mr. Orr. Maybe Mr. Breen can answer that better than I. 

Mr. Breen. I do not have the figures here with me right now, 
Mr. Commissioner, but it is at the skill level, at the skilled 
journeyman level, such as electrician, machinist, or something of 
that nature. 

Commissioner Ruiz. How about a foreman? Do you have one 
foreman that is an Indian? 

Mr. Breen. Well, I am calling this to you, sir, off of my head. 
I did not — I was not prepared to answer these questions because 


I didn't know they were going to come to me. If I had known I 
would have told you every job that every Indian that we have 

Commissioner Ruiz. No, I was just — 

Mr. Powell. Weren't we in touch with you regarding the fact 
that we wanted you to come and what we wanted to talk about? 
I think we were, in writing. We wrote you a letter, did we not? 

Mr. Breen. You did not go into detail. 

Mr. Powell. We gave you the general area. 

Mr. Breen. Right. 

Mr. Powell. Given the problems of employment that you have, 
I think that you really were substantially on notice. 

Commissioner Ruiz. What is the highest job level held by an 
Indian at the Hecla Mining Company? 

Mr. Glover. Head welder. 

Commissioner Ruiz. A what? 

Mr. Glover. A head welder, which is in the craft area. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Do you have any foreman that is an 

Mr. Glover. Not at the present time, no. This man is a lead 
man which is the next step to a foreman level. 

Commissioner. Ruiz. You don't have in all of your employees 
an Indian that has as high a job as a foreman ? 

Mr. Glover. No. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Are you aware of the fact that the Ana- 
conda Copper Company on the Laguma reservation in New 
Mexico has practically 100 percent Indian labor force? 

Mr. Glover. No, sir. 

Commissioner Ruiz. Do you think it might be a good idea to 
find out what their affirmative action plan might be? 

Mr. Glover. Yes. 

Commissioner Ruiz. I would urge you to do so. It may come 
up with some solutions. 

No more questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. Mr. Breen, have there ever been, to your knowledge, 
more than 51 Indian employees of Phelps Dodge at any one 

Mr. Breen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Buggs. How many more? 

Mr. Breen. Well, sir, the 51 I think applied to Hecla. We 
have 94 employees as of September 30th. 

Mr. Buggs. Any more than 94 ? 

Mr. Breen. Yes, sir, there have been. 

Mr. Buggs. Do you know what the top number at any one 
time has ever been? 


Mr. Breen. No, sir, I do not, but I know it has been higher 
than our present figure. 

Mr. Buggs. Mr. Breen, do you know most of — The foreman 
are pretty important people in a company like that, are they 

Mr. Breen. I would say that, yes, sir. 

Mr. Buggs. Do you know most of them? 

Mr. Breen. Yes. 

Mr. Buggs. Do you know any Indian who is one? 

Mr. Breen. Not at the present time I do not. 

Mr. Buggs. So they would not be important foremen? 

Mr. Breen. Well, they are at some of the lower foremen's levels 
but there's none up in the top supervisory group. 

Mr. Buggs. So they would not be important foremen? 

Mr. Breen. Well, I'm not saying that they are not important, 
sir. I mean listing them as we list them with EEO-1 reports, 
there's none in the top supervisory group that is listed. 

Mr. Buggs. Mr. Hunter, how long has the Hecla Mining Com- 
pany been on the Papago reservation ? 

Mr. Hunter. Two years and 9 months. 

Mr. Buggs. How did you get there? Did you execute some kind 
of contract with the tribe and/or BIA? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Buggs. What does the tribe get out of the copper that 
you are taking off its reservation? 

Mr. Hunter. Well, they get a royalty from the copper. We 
have not mined any copper. We are strictly in the development 
stage at this time. 

Mr. Buggs. But they will get a royalty? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Buggs. How much of a royalty? 

Mr. Hunter. I don't think that is my place. I really don't know. 
That's not my department at all. 

Mr. Sievwright. Is that pertinent to the Commission? 

Mr. Powell. If you have that information, I think you're 
obliged to — 

Mr. Sievwright. It's a matter of public record. I think you 
can probably get it from the Indians or we can furnish it if you 
request us. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have that information now? 

Mr. Sievwright. We do not have it at the present time. 

Mr. Powell. You have no idea what the answer to that re- 
quest is? 

Mr. Sievwright. I have no idea as to the answer to that ques- 

Mr. Powell. But you will provide information to us? 

Mr. Sievwright. If it is pertinent and the Commission re- 

quests it, we will try to cooperate with you to give you whatever 
information you specifically request. 

Mr. Powell. I tell you now I think it is pertinent. 

Mr. Sievwright. If you will give us a request for that — 

Mr. Powell. We have given you the request. 

Mr. Sievwright. Specifically, what is your request, sir? 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Buggs asked, "What is the royalty that the 
tribe gets for the copper that you will be taking out of the 

Mr. Buggs. The other question: Who were the primary indi- 
viduals with whom you dealt in connection with the lease? 
Was it BIA officials or the leadership of the Papago tribe? Do you 

Mr. Hunter. I can't answer that. I don't know. 

Mr. Buggs. Mr. Powell, I think that's pertinent information 

Mr. Powell. Perhaps your counsel can provide us with that 

You are counsel to this company? 

Mr. Sievwright. I am counsel for Hecla. Your question is 
what individuals, what personalities, were involved? Or what 
agencies ? 

Mr. Buggs. Who made the decision in the final analysis that 
the company would be granted an opportunity to mine on the 
reservation ? 

Mr. Sievwright. On the part of the Government or Hecla? 

Mr. Buggs. On the part of the Government. 

Mr. Sievwright. I can't answer that question. I do not know. 

Mr. Powell. In order for these kind of arrangements to be 
finalized, is it not true that the Bureau of Indian Affairs has to 
sign off on it? Is that correct? 

Mr. Sievwright. Well, on this agreement on the employment 
practices agreement — 

Mr. Powell. Is it the employment practices that you are ask- 
ing about, Mr. Buggs? 

Mr. Buggs. No, no. I'm — 

Mr. Sievwright. This is an addendum, an exhibit to the 
contract, and just to answer your question a little bit, the super- 
intendent of the Papago Indian Agency signed it, recommended 
for approval. The Director of Mines of Papago Council. General 
Counsel, Papago Council. And the Area Director, Phoenix Area 
Office, BIA. 

Mr. Powell. So, in order for that agreement to be finalized, a 
number of officials, two of whom were Bureau of Indian Affairs 
employees, had to sign it? Is that correct? 

Mr. Sievwright. Those people who I named signed it. 

Mr. Buggs. Fine, I wonder if you would also provide for us, 


Mr. Hunter, the kind of information that was also asked of 
Phelps Dodge with respect to employment statistics as of now 
and a copy of whatever affirmative action plan you are prepar- 

Mr. Sievwright. The answer is similar to what Phelps Dodge 
did. If you request certain information, we will be more than 
happy to cooperate along that line, sir. 

Mr. Buggs. All right. We would like to get as soon as you 
can provide it for us a copy of the statistics on your employment 
of persons by race together with any affirmative action plan 
that you may have executed at the request of any agency of the 
Federal Government. 

Mr. Sievwright. We will give you that information. 

Mr. Powell. That is by race and job category. 

Mr. Sievwright. Similar to EEO-1 form, sir? 

Mr. Buggs. That's right. 

Mr. Powell. If that is helpful. 

Mr. Sievwright. Right. We can do that. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, gentlemen. You may be 

The next witness we are calling is Mr. Ronald Lupe. 

Will you remain standing? 

(Whereupon, Mr. Ronald Lupe was sworn by Commissioner 
Freeman and testified as follows: ) 


Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. Thank you. 

Mr. Michael Smith. 

Mr. Smith. Mr. Lupe, would you please state your name and 
occupation for the record ? 

Mr. Lupe. My name is Ronald Lupe. I am White Mountain 
Apache employed by the White Mountain Apache Tribe as Di- 
rector of Planning. 

Mr. Smith. Thank you. What in your opinion is the relation- 
ship currently between the BIA and the tribal council in terms 
of responsibility for decision-making in tribal issues at White 

Mr. Lupe. You are asking me a question that is very broad 
and very specific. Perhaps maybe a tribal council member can 
give you a better answer to that. 

But as an individual having worked as a tribal chairman for 
the tribe, member of the tribal council, I can give you my own 
personal experience. 

In terms of decision-making, the tribal council makes the de- 
cision with a stamp put on that decision by the Bureau of Indian 


Affairs. Then you go into the direction of whatever decision 
might have been made in terms of following that decision. 

The Bureau of Indian Affairs has always — and I don't know 
when it's going to stop — has run up against so much red tape 
directed by the area office from the Washington level, not fol- 
lowing up on some of the important decisions affecting the local 
tribe, the White Mountain Apache; there are many bogdowns 
in this decision-making in terms of the education improvement, 
economic improvement, improvement in housing programs, im- 
provement in the roads department. You name it and there's a 
tremendous bogdown. 

One of the excuses that I might reflect on is personnel and 
then in terms of budgeting: Not enough money, not enough 

Mr. Smith. But this bogging down is in your view an impedi- 
ment to the smooth operations of the tribal government? 

Mr. Lupe. I would think so, yes, because under the trust rela- 
tionship with the United States Government there is a clear 
understanding that the recognized tribe has the right to deter- 
mine its own destiny, and they have that right under the United 
States Government. 

But somehow there seem to be injustices, numerous misun- 
derstandings, numerous bogdowns elsewhere down the line to, 
well, curtail some of our direction that we want to go. 

Mr. Smith. Let me turn to another topic. How would you com- 
ment on the employment practices regarding Indians of off- 
reservation private employers in the White Mountain area? 

Mr. Lupe. Perhaps maybe I can give you a two-point answer 
here. One is a border town, and one located on the reservation. 

The local towns there we call Pinetop, Lakeside, and Show 
Low. As far as the Government operation, between the chambers 
of commerce, there is an understanding. There is an area of 
negotiation, has always been. But in terms of meeting the indi- 
vidual need, employment, there has always been that qualifica- 
tion waved in our face: "You have to live here. You have to be, 
etc., etc., etc." 

One of the stumbling blocks here is, of course, that we are 
Indians, and we are being told so many things since our country 
was confiscated, so to speak, if you will. We are all bilingual at 
White Mountain; 99.9 percent of us are bilingual. We have our 
own religion, our own culture. We appreciate people, and the 
White Mountain Apache tribe has made a tremendous effort in 
economic improvement by their own hand, at their own expense. 
And the local towns, the bordering towns, are increasing their 
lot because of our existence in that area in terms of money. 

But we are still being discriminated against jobwise. I'll give 
you one example. 


When I was chairman of the tribe I was promised by an indi- 
vidual running for an office, the county sheriff, "If you vote for 
me I will employ an Apache in Pinetop," which is a border 

Well, we elected him and reelected again. I have yet to see an 
Apache employed as a county sheriff or a deputy. 

These are some of the things that we are up against. 

In the local on-the-reservation employment a real good experi- 
ence that I have had is with a company located in McNary 
which is on my reservation. It was leased to a mill, sawmill, 
company some 50 years ago. I have not seen in my lifetime, which 
is 42 years of age now and going some more I hope, a foreman, 
an Apache made a foreman. Promotion seems to be in the way 
all the time. At the heaviest peak of employment I would say 
there has been at one time over 500 employed, but no more than — 
at that time no more than 60 employed of — 

Mr. Smith. What company are you referring to? 

Mr. Lupe. The Southwest Forest Industries. 

Mr. Smith. Thank you. 

Mr. Lupe. Presently, I would say there are about 200 people 
employed by the Southwest and no more than 20 Apaches are 
working there presently, so there is a definite misunderstanding 
in the employment situation between the private investor on 
the reservation and the local landowner and the people who 
reside on that reservation. 

As the chairman of the tribe I have attempted to remedy 
the situation at that time. Due to lack of promotion, due to lack 
of — on the part of the company to hire Apaches, due to — 
Well, there's the preference clause. You have heard about the 
preference clause a while ago. But for some reason it's been 
continuously overlooked. 

What we have done to remedy this is to deny a continuous 
contract of raw material with the Southwest. They have 
threatened to move out. To this day we have not provided them 
with timber, and they are still threatening to move out. 

One of the experiences that I have had with the lease com- 
pany and the tribe, I would urge all members of Indians, recog- 
nized Indian tribes, to be very careful of going into a lease agree- 
ment with a private investor. If there is such a negotiation 
introduced in an industry on a reservation purely for economic 
reasons make sure that you have 60 percent control or at least 
that you have the majority of the vote control, a joint session 
if that is to be, or otherwise own the whole industry. That is the 
best method that we have found to cure some of our problems. 

Mr. Smith. Let me ask you about one other topic. Would you 
comment on some of the problems that you see in the area of 
education for Indian children both in BIA schools and public 


schools on your reservation? 

Mr. Lupe. That again is very involved. I would have to sit 
down with you for at least a couple weeks to give you a clear 
picture of some of the problems we are facing in Indian educa- 

Some of the problems that I see immediately are lack of cul- 
tural program, traditions, beliefs, the sacredness that we as In- 
dian people hold. These are not recognized by the teachers. There, 
again, is lack of understanding. 

You will find that a young student rejects a total foreign en- 
vironment due to the fact that his makeup is Indian. His beliefs 
and his behavior, his attitude, his pattern of living is totally 
different from what we see in education inside a classroom. 

For instance, you find me sitting here. I am using a language 
that is used by an establishment, for instance. Up until 12 years 
of age in my personal life I didn't understand this language that 
I was, that I am using, presently. It was totally foreign to me. 

So this is a tremendous handicap to the Indian people, and 
I hope that the teachers, whoever they are, whoever have the 
institutions of educating our people, understand this, and that 
they recognize that we are totally different people. 

In an attempt to control the schools, we have had numerous 
hearings, subcommittee hearings from Washington; education 
seminars, commissions of all types. We have had this type of 
undertaking similar to what we are having here, experiencing 
here. Sometimes you wonder what has happened to all of these. 
You have made good suggestions. You have presented your feel- 
ings wholeheartedly, in trust, in total respect to the people who 
make up commissions and want to hear the Indian side, the point 
of view. There seems to be no time limit established to when are 
we going to upgrade, when are we going to realize what we 
have talked about. 

Mr. Smith. So you have seen no results from the Indian Educa- 
tion Subcommittee hearings that were held during the past few 
years ? 

Mr. Lupe. The result is you read through the news media what 
is happening in Washington, D.C. ; that there is a cutback of 
education directly affecting the Indian people which affects this 
particular institution here, the Indian school. And it affects all 
the Indian schools in the entire United States. 

And we have hollered for more. Look at this auditorium that 
you're sitting in. Look at how many Indians come here. This 
auditorium is too small. It is so, well, antique, so to speak; if you 
look at the gymnasium right here at the Indian School — 

There's a gradual elimination of these inadequacies, misunder- 
standings, but it takes so long. It takes sometimes — you wonder 
when it's going to stop. 


Mr. Smith. Thank you. I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Thank you, Mr. Lupe. You may be 

We now call Mr. Richard David. 

(Whereupon, Mr. Richard David was sworn by Commissioner 
Freeman and testified as follows: ) 




Commissioner Freeman. You may be seated. 

Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. Will you please state your name, address, and oc- 
cupation for the record ? 

Mr. David. Richard David. I live at San Carlos, Arizona. I am 
employed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs as employment assist- 
ance officer in that agency. 

Mr. Powell. I understand that you have been employed in this 
capacity for 8 years, and 21/2 of those years have been at San 
Carlos. Is that correct? 

Mr. David. That's correct. 

Mr. Powell. What is the unemployment rate at San Carlos? 

Mr. David. It varies. It varies all the way from 55 percent down 
to 25 percent. We have an immense number of impact projects 
on the reservation, federally-funded programs, which tend to be 
short-term. We also have interim or temporary employment. 
Many of the men are engaged in cattle roundup operations which 
are very temporary, very seasonal. 

So at one point you could have a low unemployment rate of 
25 percent. You could have a very high one of 55 percent. I'm 
talking now about eligibles. We have a very large population of 
chronically-unemployed we don't even consider eligible for em- 

Mr. Powell. I see. Well, what employment opportunities exist 
in your area for members of the tribe? 

Mr. David. They have been testified to several times. Usually 
public health, Bureau of Indian Affairs, community action pro- 
gram, the tribe, the public school, and finally the cattle operation. 
Those are the major employers. 

Mr. Powell. What has been your experience in attempting to 
place Indian employees with local private employers? 

Mr. David. Frustrating. We have in Globe, or Globe-Miami 
area, a distance of about 30 miles from the reservation, a copper 
industry. One firm in particular, the Inspiration Consolidated Cop- 
per Company, is really the biggest operation there, and that's the 
one with whom we have had the most frequent negotiations. 


Mr. Powell. Let me ask you how large is San Carlos and 
how many Indians are on that reservation. 

Mr. David. Approximately 6,000 Indians on just about 2 million 

Mr. Powell. Have you any idea of what the current em- 
ployment level of Indians at Inspiration mines is? 

Mr. David. Yes. I understand there are approximately 2,000 
employees of that company, and our best estimate is we have less 
than a hundred, and I believe it will range between 75 and 85 in 
an actual head count, Indians employed at Inspiration. 

Mr. Powell. I don't know if I had given you a chance to finish 
the answer to that question about problems with attitudes of 
employers. What are some of the excuses people at Inspiration 
mines and other places give you? 

Mr. David. You have heard it before. It's the high rate of 
absenteeism, people who are undependable, basically. We have 
unaggressive personalities. They are unable to promote them into 
higher positions. They lack education. They are mute when they 
should be speaking up. They have transportation difficulties. 
They are — The usual range of excuses are offered. 

Mr. Powell. Has there been a question regarding hiring 
enough Indians to justify transportation and has that been frus- 
trated or encouraged ? 

Mr. David. Last fall, after the strike, the company began to 
hire in fairly large numbers, and at that point the Bureau of 
Indian Affairs offered a possible solution. It was our proposal 
that we would operate a bus service, that we did have a bus at 
our disposal, and we could possibly meet their three schedules. 

We experimented with this. Regrettably, the company — We 
had to use in this experiment those fellows who were already 
employed there. We asked them to ride the bus. They were al- 
ready using their own transportation. We wanted them to ride 
the bus so that we could experiment with meeting their schedules 
over there. 

Hiring ceased after that in any large numbers, and we were 
unable to bring new people onto the payroll, and these people 
were the ones we would have targeted for the bus service. 

So, ultimately, we wound up with a backlog of applications, 
85 or 90. 

Mr. Powell. Why did hiring cease? 

Mr. David. I can't answer that question. I don't know. 

Mr. Powell. There was transportation provided on an experi- 
mental basis and then hiring ceased? 

Mr. David. In the numbers that would have justified contin- 
uing operating the bus. 

Mr. Powell. Does the lack of Indian union membership pose 
a barrier to Indian employment? 


Mr. David. Yes. 

Mr. Powell. Would you care to elaborate? 

Mr. David. Our most frequent experience is that a man is 
asked if he holds a card in his trade or craft, if he has paid his 
dues. And if he does not, he doesn't get the job. There are som<» 
contractors who do go out of their way to assist the men in 
paying their union fees, but this is rare. 

Mr. Powell. Must you be a member of a union to work on 
some operations? I thought there was a right-to-work law in 

Mr. David. There is. 

Mr. Powell. They wink at it, apparently, from what I gather, 
but why is it that an Indian has to be a member of a union to work 
in some of these operations if there is a right-to- work law? Do 
you know the answer to that? You might not. 

Mr. David. I can only speak personally. There is a lack of mus- 
cle to enforce it on a reservation. The Bureau is, as we have 
testified before, fairly mute in this area. 

Mr. Powell. In your experience, when qualified tribal members 
are hired by local companies, are they hired at positions for 
which they are qualified? 

Mr. David. No. In the case of — Let's go back to Inspiration: We 
have numerous referrals to Inspiration Copper of gentlemen who 
have been trained under our vocational training program in 
skills all the way from electronics technology down to welding. 
To my knowledge, with the possible exception of some recent 
hires at Inspiration, these people have been hired as laborers with 
the promise of possible promotion at some time. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. David, how closely do you work with the 
assistant employment assistance officer at San Carlos Agency 
who is a member of the San Carlos Apache tribe ? Do you consult 
him on matters requiring intimate knowledge of tribal matters? 

Mr. DAvro. Yes, he works in my office. 

Mr. Powell. Do you feel that your program would be more 
effective if you had an Indian working for the BIA doing this 
sort of thing? 

Mr. David. In the particular activity I'm in? 

Mr. Powell. Yes. 

Mr. David. Oh, yes. Yes. I would like to comment that there 
are two Indians in my staff. 

Mr. Powell. There are? I see. 

How effective, in your estimation, is the State Employment 
Service in servicing the needs of reservation residents ? 

Mr. David. I can't speak specifically for the representative of 
the State Employment Service at San Carlos because I know that 
he gets numerous calls, generally for laborers. But my personal 
experience with the State Employment Service in assisting people 


and getting into their bulletinized jobs has been almost zero 

In the last year I have helped what I considered to be — and I 
use the word dangerously, I suppose — qualified Indians apply 
for jobs that were bulletinized through the State Employment 
Service. Frequently they don't even receive a reply. 

And this holds true even for those jobs that are designated 
Emergency Employment Act and Public Service Careers jobs. 

Mr. Powell. Other witnesses have testified that the Indian 
preference clause in BIA construction contracts is ineffective. 
Would you agree? And would you want to comment? 

Mr. David. Yes, but I believe another panel member would 
have more specific details. I really can't comment. 

Mr. Powell. Madam Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Commissioner Freeman. Mr. David, you may not be the 
employee of the Bureau of Indian Affairs who could best answer 
this question, but because you in response to Mr. Powell's question 
referred to the lack of muscle, I would ask you please to specu- 
late in this regard. 

And that is if the Indians, if the tribal council, or if the 
nation, any particular nation, had sole control over the resources 
on the land which it owned, thereby having the right to exclude 
absolutely without regard to any opinion of any Federal official a 
company from mining or lumbering on its reservation, would, in 
your opinion, this be a solution to the problems which you have 
described ? 

Mr. David. I don't feel completely adequate to answer the ques- 
tion, but in some cases it might work well, but I'm afraid the 
response from my industrial development colleagues would say 
that such a clause would frighten people away, would frighten 
away reservation development, which is a very active division 
within the Bureau of Indian Affairs and within the tribal groups. 
Such strength may, in fact, frighten free enterprise out. 

Commissioner Freeman. The point that I'm making is that if 
the Indians themselves are not going to benefit from the develop- 
ment, they may find themselves of the opinion that they couldn't 
care less whether the people are frightened away. 

Thank you very much. You're excused. 

Mr. David. Thank you. 

Commissioner Freeman. Our final witnesses before lunch — 
and I will call them now — are Mr. Glen Jones, Mr. Bruce Porter, 
Mr. Henry Allen, and Mr. D. A. Reed. 

Will you come forward with your counsel ? 

Mr. Crockett. My name is C. Webb Crockett. I am an attorney 
in Phoenix, Arizona. I am representing Glen Jones, Bruce Porter, 
and their employer, Southwest Forest Industries. 


Commissioner Freeman. Will the individuals who will be 
giving testimony remain standing? 

(Whereupon, Messrs. Glen Jones, Bruce Porter, Henry Allen, 
and D. A. Reed were sworn by Commissioner Freeman and 
testified as follows: ) 










Mr. Ladendorff. My name is G. H. Ladendorff. I am an 
attorney-at-law, 716 Arizona Bank Building, Phoenix, Arizona, 
and I am representing Mr. Allen and Mr. Reed and Inspiration 
Consolidated Copper Company. 

Mr. Powell. Would each of you, beginning with the first wit- 
ness on my left, please state your name and occupation for the 
record ? 

MR. Allen. My name is Henry Allen. I am general superinten- 
dent of operations, Inspiration Consolidated Copper Company. 

Mr. Reed. Dorman Reed, assistant director of industrial rela- 
tions, Inspiration Consolidated Copper Company. 

Mr. Jones. My name is Glen Jones, four corners division 
manager for Southwest Forest Industries. 

Mr. Porter. Bruce Porter, director of personnel for Southwest 
Forest Industries at our wood products operation location in 
McNary, Arizona. 

Mr. Powell. Mr. Jones, would you please briefly describe 
for us the nature of your plant and the kind of job opportunities 
it offers ? 

Mr. Jones. Could you repeat, sir? I've got an echo back here. 

Mr. Powell. Would you please briefly describe for us the kind 
of plant you have and the kind of job opportunities it offers? 

Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. Our plant at McNary is the full lumbering- 
manufacturing plant which includes sawmill, planer mills, mold- 
ing factories. 

The job opportunities that we have are — leaning very much 
toward the Indian people. We do have some qualifications, but let 
me clarify this now after listening to — Our qualification basically 
is, if an Indian or people are willing and able to work, and this 
includes passing a physical, this is all our qualifications amount to. 

Mr. Powell. Well, we have heard complaints that Indians 
who are hired by your company work exclusively in labor posi- 
tions and are not employed in or promoted to managerial or 


supervisory positions. Would you please tell us how many Indians 
are employed at the various job levels in your plant? 

Would you care to comment generally though about that 
testimony that you only have Indians at the lower level posi- 
tions ? 

Mr. Jones. No, I think my personnel director can answer 
that probably better than I can. 

Mr. Powell. Fine. 

Mr. Porter. Thank you, Mr. Powell. 

The amount of Indians that we have employed at Southwest, 
numberwise — and I might also add — 

Mr. Powell. You might, so that we have it in context, give us 
the total number of employees you have generally in each job 
category and what percentage Indians constitute of that total 
number so we can begin to have — 

Mr. Porter. Okay. Now, in detailed breakdowns I do not have 
percentages but I have numbers. This is also including our gen- 
eral store, which is a company-operated store in the town site of 
McNary — these figures. 

Mr. Powell. Same facility? 

Mr. Porter. Under the same facility. Correct. But not the mill 
alone. We have a total of 281 employees. Of this the American 
Indian is 62, which is approximately 23 percent. 

Now, the breakdown of employees. We can, for instance, start 
in the — this is the McNary production departments — the mill 
operation itself. 

Semi-skilled, we come into American Indians — We have two 
swampers out of a total of five swampers. 

We have lift drivers in the molding department. We have only 
one lift driver in the molding department, and that gentleman 
is an Indian. 

In the planer department we have two feeders for the planer, 
one of whom is an Indian. 

Trimmermen in the planer department, we have three, one of 
which is an Indian. 

Molding department. Now, again these are semi-skilled jobs. 
Molding department we have a total of nine men employed as 
trimmermen, five of whom are Indian. 

In the sawmill department we have a total of two tourmen, 
one of whom is an Indian. 

Coming down — 

Mr. Powell. Well, it might be helpful— We'll get that informa- 
tion in the record. You are now talking about semi-skilled, and you 
broke it down to job qualifications. Semi-skilled, I take, ranges 
from what to what in terms of pay scale? 

Mr. Porter. In pay scale semi-skilled would probably come in 


at approximately $2.93, $2.95 an hour, ranging up to approxi- 
mately $3.20 roughly to $3.50. 

Mr. Powell. In the semi-skilled field, general broad job classi- 
fication, which meets that pay range, which is covered by that 
pay scale you just indicated, are how many total employees that 
you have in the semi-skilled broad job classification? 

Mr. Porter. We have a total of 132 semi-skilled, 41 of whom 
are American Indian. 

Mr. Powell. 132, 41 of whom are American Indian. Now, what 
is the next level up ? 

Mr. Porter. Up is craftsmen or skilled, 47, of whom 3 are 
American Indian. 

Mr. Powell. Forty-seven. Now, that pay range is what? 

Mr. Porter. That would approximate say $3.50 to $3.70, on 
up to $5.25 an hour, which is the top pay scale for an hourly 

Mr. Powell. All right. What is the next pay level above that? 

Mr. Porter. The next pay level would be management basically 
because our office and clerical people, of course, are not paid as 

Mr. Powell. How many management employees do you have? 

Mr. Porter. We have 14 officers and managers. 

Mr. Powell. Of that number, how many are Indians? 

Mr. Porter. Zero. 

Mr. Powell. You have none? 

Mr. Porter. Correct. 

Mr. Powell. So that your statistics support the testimony that 
we have heard which is that such Indians as you have are found 
almost exclusively I'd say — Let me see — 132 — How many were 
Indians again? 

Mr. Porter. Forty-one in the semi-skilled. 

Mr. Powell. Forty-one. So of the 44 employees covered by 
these two job categories, only three are in your higher — 

Mr. Porter. In the skilled positions. Correct. 

Mr. Powell. None are in your management level? 

Mr. Porter. Correct. 

Mr. Powell. How do you account for the absence of Indians 
in supervisory and managerial positions at your plant, Mr. Jones, 
or Mr. Porter, either one ? 

You're the boss. Mr. Jones is the person who sets the policy 
I take it. 

Go ahead. 

Mr. Porter. Well, let me just say that corporate sets overall 
philosophy for employment practices, but we in our particular 
area have certain areas that we have to kind of work with be- 
cause of the present cultural problems. I think it's important 
to note here before I get in to answer your question, Mr. Powell, 


that we have Anglo, Spanish American, American Indian, and 
Mexican — Did I say Mexican American ? — the four cultures work- 
ing at our plant. 

To answer your question as to why we do not have management 
people of Indian heritage now employed, let me first say that we 
have a positive approach to this. I, for one, would like to see an 
Indian in a management position as far as supervisory capaci- 
ties go, whatever the case is, in the plant. We have found that 
because of turnover this has deleted a number of employees we 
felt had potential — the turnover problem or leaving. 

Mr. Powell. Do you have any orientation programs designed 
to meet these problems for Indians ? Do you have any — 

(At this point, Commissioner Ruiz was taken ill, and the hear- 
ing was recessed, at 12: 25 p.m., until 2: 00 p.m. this date.) 

2:18 p.m. 

Commissioner Freeman. Will the hearing come to order? 

Ladies and gentlemen, I am now proceeding with the closing 
statement of this hearing. 

We close this hearing at this time because of a grave and 
unfortunate circumstance, the incident involving my colleague, 
Commissioner Manuel Ruiz. We do not know at this time the 
full impact of his physical well being arising out of the attack 
he suffered on this platform earlier today. 

We understand that he is resting now but that it will be 
some time before a complete diagnosis can be made. 

It seems to us appropriate that we empathize with Commis- 
sioner Ruiz and that, because a substantial portion of the record 
has been completed, we can now close it. 

We came to Phoenix to learn about the problems from those 
who have first-hand knowledge. We have learned a great deal. 
We commend all those who have provided us with their special 
knowledge and special expertise. 

For the last 2 days, this Commission has heard testimony about 
civil rights problems of Indians in employment, in health care, 
in education, and in the administration of justice. We under- 
stand that almost 60,000 Indian citizens live in the State of 
Arizona, one of the largest Indian populations in the entire 
United States. Their problems are legion, as we have been told 
many times and in many ways by the witnesses who have 
participated in this hearing. Some problems are unique to this 

And we commend the efforts and the persistence of those who 
work toward a solution of the problems. 

We are deeply impressed with the description of the many 


ways that Indian families work with and for each other against 
formidable odds. 

We have heard how Indian people are stymied in their efforts 
to move upward in their jobs by a system that promotes some 
and passes over others. 

We have heard about inadequate education for Indian youth 
so they drop out of school bitter and disillusioned. 

We have heard how rules and regulations in a tangle of differ- 
ent jurisdictions frustrate efforts to provide desperately needed 

We have heard serious charges of neglect in health care. 

We have also heard serious allegations about the administra- 
tion of justice which call for investigation. 

We are struck by the contrast in this beautiful city where 
there is so much wealth and affluence while so many people suffer 
deprivation of the most basic needs. 

We have also been impressed with the dignity and courtesy 
with which our many witnesses have described these serious 

Arizona is not alone in these problems. They are duplicated in 
other States having large Indian populations. 

Our 2 days of placing this area under a microscope was not 
an attempt to embarrass any individual or institution or the 
State of Arizona but was an effort to begin the search for solu- 
tions that may be applicable to this and other areas facing similar 
problems. We believe a beginning has been made. 

We came not to find fault but to find facts on which we can 
base recommendations for action. Not only must these problems 
be recognized but the appropriate offices must take affirmative 
action to rectify them. 

This Commission will formulate specific recommendations for 
achieving solutions to these problems. 

Now that this hearing has concluded, we hope that the at- 
tention will not disappear. It has been our experience in many 
areas of the Nation that Commission hearings have had an im- 
pact and have led to the solution of many problems. We sincerely 
hope that this hearing will have the same effect on Phoenix, and 
Arizona as a whole. 

As this hearing closes, I wish to again point out that witnesses 
at Commission hearings are protected by the provisions of Title 
18, United States Code, section 1505, which makes it a crime to 
threaten, intimidate or injure witnesses on account of their at- 
tendance at government proceedings. 

Before we make the final statement of adjournment, I would 
like to call upon the general counsel for the procedural arrange- 
ments that must be made for the collecting of the information 


that would have been obtained from the witnesses now under 

Mr. Powell. 

Mr. Powell. There are at least two classes of people from 
whom we would have heard. One class is those people who have 
been subpenaed. With respect to those people, Commission's staff 
will be in touch with them either in writing or in person to 
obtain the information to which they would have testified. 

We expect and trust that we will get full cooperation from 
each of those witnesses from the point of view of completing 
our record. 

There are also people who were not scheduled but who were 
going to be given an opportunity to testify. Those people should 
either present to us now their written statements or else send 
those statements to the United States Commission on Civil Rights, 
Office of General Counsel, 1121 Vermont Avenue, Washington, 
D.C. 20425. 

The statements can be either mailed or presented to us now. 

Thank you very much. 

From the Floor. We just want to talk now, not mail any- 

Mr. Powell. Unfortunately, due to the condition of Commis- 
sioner Ruiz, we are not going to continue that aspect of these 

Commissioner Freeman. Ladies and gentlemen, this hearing 
of the United States Commission on Civil Rights is adjourned. 

Thank you very much. 

(Whereupon, at 2: 27 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.) 


Due to the illness of one of the Commissioners, the public 
testimony at the Phoenix hearing was prematurely halted. Certain 
witnesses who had been subpenaed and were scheduled to testify 
were, therefore, not heard in public session. Their testimony was 
secured subsequently in one of two ways: They were asked to 
either acknowledge a statement of testimony prepared by Com- 
mission staff on the basis of previous interviews; ~or to respond 
to questions which would have been put to them orally had they 
testified. The prepared statements and answers to questions 

Summary of Statement in Lieu of Testimony of Mr. Frank 
Peres, Chief Road Engineer, Bureau of Indian Affairs, San 
Carlos Apache Reservation 

I have been employed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs for 18 
years, 12 of which have been on the San Carlos Apache Res- 


ervation. As Chief Road Engineer I am responsible for road 
construction on the reservation. Virtually all road construction 
by the BIA on the San Carlos Reservation is done under con- 
tract by private operators. 

The record of private road construction contractors regarding 
the hiring of Indians on construction jobs has been poor. Few 
Indians are hired at any level. Promotion of Indian employees 
is infrequent. In discussing this situation with private employers 
their response has been that few Indians are hired because few 
are qualified and few are union members. There are qualified 
Indians living on the reservation who are denied employment 
opportunities in construction positions for which they are quali- 
fied. Employers make little effort to locate such individuals. It 
is true that few Indians belong to unions. This is because it is 
difficult for Indians, who normally only obtain part time work, 
to pay the high union membership fees. 

BIA construction contracts require that preference be given 
to "local residents." This is interpreted to mean local Indian 
residents. By and large such preference clauses are ineffective. 
Because of their vague wording it is impossible to monitor them. 
In 18 years with the BIA I have never known of a construction 
contract to be cancelled or a contractor to be ruled ineligible by 
the Bureau because of his hiring practices. 

From time to time road construction work at San Carlos has 
been performed by Indian owned and operated companies under 
the Buy Indian Act. These companies have always performed 
according to Federal specified standards and have hired Indians 
at all job levels. In my estimation their experience has demon- 
strated that it is possible to obtain Indian manpower from local 
reservations to fill virtually all road construction jobs. 

Summary Statement in Lieu of Testimony of Mr. Floyd 
Mull, San Carlos Apache Tribal Council Member 

I have lived on the San Carlos Apache Reservation all my 
life. Until recently I was the owner and operator of the Floyd 
Mull Construction Company, one of the few Indian owned con- 
struction companies in the State of Arizona. It was operated for 
about five years and employed about 20 people on construction 
projects under contract from the BIA. Most of these contracts 
were pursuant to the Buy Indian Act, legislation allowing the 
BIA to accord preferential contracting status to Indian owned 
and operated companies. 

Recently I received word from the BIA Road Engineer on the 
reservation that due to a reinterpretation of the Act my company 
would no longer be entitled to preferential treatment but must 
be held to the same standards as other companies. One conse- 
quence of this was that the company would have to be bonded at an 


amount equal to the face value of the contract. The effect of 
this financial burden was to put us out of business. This rein- 
terpretation will make it difficult for any Indian owned construc- 
tion companies to operate in the future. 

My company hired virtually all Indian employees. In con- 
trast, white owned construction companies operating on the res- 
ervation under BIA contracts hire few if any Indians. The 
tribe has been concerned with this situation since it knows that 
there are Indian people qualified to fill many of the jobs for which 
they are not hired. Unfortunately there is nothing the tribe 
can do to force the BIA to monitor the employment practices 
of its contractors. 

The record of the State Highway Department has also been 
poor in this regard. Few Indians are hired on State highway 
construction projects on or near the reservation. Few Indians 
are hired on State highway maintenance crews. 


Washington, D. C. 20425 

DEC 2 1972 

Mr. William A. Ordway 
Deputy Highv;ay Director 
Arizona Highway Department 
206 South 17th Avenue 
Phoenix, Arizona 

Dear Mr. Ordway: 

When the Commission's hearing in Phoenix, Arizona, this November was 
unavoidably cancelled, due to Commissioner Ruiz 1 illness, Chairman 
Freeman stated that the Commission would continue the investigation 
of Indian civil rights problems and complete the record of the hearing. 

To carry out this mandate we are sending you questions for completion. 
These questions would have been posed to you at the public session 
had you had a chance to testify. Your answers will become part of 
the hearing record, to be published by the Commission. 

Please answer these questions fully and make whatever additional 
comments relevant to the subject matter you feel are necessary. As 
it is essential to complete the hearing record as soon as possible, 
I would appreciate your returning your answers to this office no 
later than December 15, 1972. 

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation. 


(The above letter was also sent to Messrs. T. U. Madrid, A. 
Loring, J. Artichoker, C. Geiogamah, J. S. Dunn, J. F. Smith, C. 
Pattea, A. N. Brown, and H. Atkinson.) 


Questions for Mr. William A. Ordway, Deputy Director, 
Arizona Highway Department 

1. What are the functions of the Arizona Highway Depart- 
ment with respect to building and maintaining Federal and 
State roads in Arizona? 

2. How much Federal money and how much State money was 
appropriated for Arizona roads and highways during the 
past three fiscal years ? 

3. For what purposes were these Federal and State funds 

4. With regard to these public funds, does the Arizona Highway 
Department have a policy requiring that they be spent in a 
nondiscriminatory manner so that all citizens, including 
Arizona Indians, will benefit from such expenditures equal- 
ly? If so, what is the nature of this policy? 

5. What specific action has your Department taken to imple- 
ment the recruitment and hiring of Indians ? 

6. What is the total number of persons employed by the Arizona 
Highway Department and how many of this total are 

7. It is our understanding that the majority of your Indian 
employees are located in District 4, which is primarily the 
Navajo reservation. Is that correct? If so, why? 

8. There are a number of Indian reservations in the Phoenix 
and Tucson areas such as the Salt River Reservation, the 
Gila River Reservation, and the Papago Reservation, to name 
a few. The Commission has been told that although vast 
untapped Indian manpower is available on these reserva- 
tions very few Indians are employed by your Department in 
these areas. Would you please comment on this? 

9. Inasmuch as on-reservation construction of Federal highways 
first requires the granting of rights-of-way by the tribes 
involved, could not the tribes condition the granting of 
such rights-of-way on preferential hiring for their tribal 
members? Has this ever been done in the State of Arizona? 

10. What specific plans have either the Arizona Highway Depart- 
ment or the Department of Transportation developed to 
make certain that new contract requirements, respecting 
the minority employee percentages of private contractors, 
are, in fact, complied with ? 








Arizona State Highway Commission 
Phoenix, Arizona 

December 14, 1972 

Mr. John H. Powell, Jr. 
General Counsel 

U.S. Commission on Civil Rights 
1121 Vermont Avenue, N.W. 
Washington, D.C. 20425 

Dear Mr. Powell: 

Thank you for your letter of December 2, 1972, requesting cer- 
tain information in connection with the hearing held in Phoenix 
in November on Indian Civil Rights problems. 

In reply to your specific questions the following information 
is submitted: 

1. The Arizona Highway Department has the responsibility 
for planning, constructing and maintaining the Federal 
and State Highway System in Arizona. Additionally, it 
has responsibility for the management of the State Motor 
Vehicle Division and the Arizona Highways Magazine. 

2. Following is a compilation of the Federal and State ex- 
penditures of the Department for the past 3 years 5 months. 

(Not included are the Motor Vehicle Division or the Arizona 
Highways Magazine.) 



Fiscal Year 



















1972-1973 (5 

months ) 











3. The funds were spent for the purposes set forth in the 
answer to Question No. 1, except as noted above. 

4. The Department has had a long-standing policy of Equal 
Employment Opportunity. Attachment No. 1 is a copy of 
the current up-dated policy, dated September 7, 1971. 

5. In an effort to increase the number of Indian employees — 
a number in which we are disappointed — the Department has 
in the past two years undertaken the following affirma- 
tive action program: 

a. Established an Equal Employment Opportunity Branch 
in the Personnel Division for internal employment 
and an Office of Equal Employment Opportunity re- 
porting to the Assistant State Engineer for Highway 
Operations, which works with contractors to insure 
compliance with the EEO provisions of the Federal 
Highway Administration Act. The Department is one 
of three State agencies to have EEO Specialists on 
its staff. 

The EEO Branch in the Personnel Division is staffed 
with a Specialist and a part-time secretary; the 
Office of Equal Employment Opportunity, working with 
the contractors, is staffed with two Specialists and 
a secretary. 

Mr. Benitez, who was the original appointee to head 
up the EEO Branch in Personnel in May, 1970, suffered 
a severe stroke in October and Mr. Madrid was appointed 
in March, 1971, to replace him. 

Mr. Arthur Loring, who heads up the Office of Equal 
Employment Opportunity for contract compliance, was 
appointed to his position in September, 1968. His 
assistant was added in August, 1971. 

Under Mr. Madrid's guidance a stepped up recruitment 
and appointment program has been initiated. At the 
time he entered on duty the Department ' s minority 
representation was 436 employees representing 11% 
of the total. As of November 1, it was 626 employees 
or 15% (78 or 12.4% of all minority employees are 
Indians) . Our goal for minority employment this fis- 
cal year is 18%. It might be of interest to note that 
minorities make up 21% of the available Arizona labor 
force. We anticipate difficulty in achieving that 
goal since our recruitment requirements in part have 
been substantially reduced due to the withholding of 


highway construction funds by the Washington Office 
of Management and budget and the failure of Congress 
to pass a highway appropriation measure, both of 
which are forcing cutbacks in our construction pro- 
gram. A similar situation faces contractors. 

In this State recruitment responsibility for State 
positions rests with the Arizona State Personnel 
Commission which works with the State Employment 
Service. No funds are appropriated to the Depart- 
ment for recruitment. However, to augment the Per- 
sonnel Commission and Employment Services recruiting 
efforts the Department has taken the following steps: 

(1) Established personal contacts with 129 minority 
community organizations, including 20 Indian organ- 
izations, to solicit their assistance in encouraging 
and assisting minority people to apply to the Per- 
sonnel Commission for Highway jobs. 

(2) Mailed monthly lists of Highway jobs for which 
there are recurring opportunities for employment to 
each of these organizations. 

(3) Made a number of trips to Indian organizations 
to acquaint them with our employment opportunities, 
to encourage their assistance and to counsel and 
assist interested Indian applicants whom these or- 
ganizations arrange to be interviewed. In a recent 
trip to Tuba City (Navajo Reservation) Mr. Madrid 
was able to assist seven applicants in filing for 
positions. Additionally, Department representatives 
have attended two Career Days at Tuba City on invita- 
tion from the High School. 

(4) Participated with the Personnel Commission in its 
active on-going project to review qualification re- 
quirements for State positions to insure job relevance 
and eliminate artificial barriers. Mr. Madrid and 
others on the Personnel staff have been working with 
the Commission in revising the qualification require- 
ments to eliminate educational requirements or lower 
experience requirements, or both. To date qualifica- 
tion requirements have been revised for 37 positions 
in the Highway Department. From the Indian employ- 
ment standpoint the most important of these has been 
the elimination of the educational requirement and 
reduction of experience requirement for Highway Main- 
tenance Man I, II and III, Equipment Operator I, II 
and III, Laborer and Clerical positions. This will 

be a continuing project. 


In cooperation with the State Personnel Commission 
the Highway Department has recently worked out a new 
procedure to fill all clerical positions. This pro- 
cedure is now being tested and if it meets expecta- 
tions will be adopted throughout the State service. 
This new system reduces or eliminates irrelevant 
educational qualifications and examination require- 
ments. It seeks to select applicants on the basis 
of actual job requirements and applicants ability 
and interests. 

Under this system the Highway Department makes a 
special analysis of the clerical jobs as to the 
specific needs of each position. Referrals are 
made when the items on the special analysis sheets 
correspond to the items on the individual applica- 
tions submitted by applicants. Thus, the process 
matches people to the job in terms of personal abili- 
ties, skills, attributes, and interests. It will 
enable the Highway Department to quickly fill cler- 
ical jobs with satisfied employees. 

These steps tend to humanize and personalize the 
clerical selection and placement process and will 
hopefully enhance minority employment in this field 
in the Highway Department. It should be noted that 
self -evaluation, applicant interests and preferences 
plus performance testing constitutes the selection 
process with considerable weight given to the appli- 
cant ' s interest and preferences . 

(5) Kept all field personnel, particularly super- 
visors, aware of the Department's minority goals 
and emphasized to them the need to solicit and 
assist minority applicants to file for our posi- 

(6) Included in our Basic Supervisory Seminar train- 
ing program a two hour presentation of the Depart- 
ment's minority recruitment and up-grade training 
program by Mr. Madrid. To date 25 Seminars have 
been held covering more than 500 supervisors. 

(7) Prepared quarterly reports which are submitted 
to supervisory personnel showing the status of the 
program. Mr. Madrid also prepares a detailed annual 
report for distribution showing the breakdown by 
minority groups for each of our major organizational 


6. As of December 1, 1972, the Department had 4,040 filled 
positions of which 81 were Indians. 

7. About one-third of our Indian employment is in District 4. 
This arises because of the miles of State highways on the 
Reservation in this District — 71% of the total miles of 
highways on the four Reservations mentioned is in District 4. 
There are three Maintenance Camps on the Reservation with 

30 positions, 29 of which are filled with Indians. Five 
vacancies have occurred since January 1, 1972, all of which 
were filled by Indians. By area the Navajo, Hopi and Joint- 
use land covers about 70% of the District. The Navajo popu- 
lation greatly exceeds the combined total of the other three 

8. The Department has no Maintenance Sections on any Reservations 
in Districts 1 and 2. It does, however, have 4 Sections with- 
in a 20 mile radius of the borders of the Salt River, Gila 
River and Papago Reservations which maintain highways on the 
Reservations. Of the 599 miles of roadway in these Sections 
141 are on Indian Reservations. 

The Department has a total of 57 positions at these four lo- 
cations, 6 of which are filled by Indians. During the past 
2 years there have been 3 vacancies at these Sections, one 
of which was filled by an Indian applicant. District Engi- 
neers report that they have never been successful in re- 
cruiting Indians for their positions as they are unwilling 
to move off the Reservations and the commuting distances are 
too great to make the positions attractive. This is confirmed 
by the fact that, although contacts have been made with Tribal 
organizations and monthly vacancy lists mailed to them, we 
have never had an application forwarded to us. 

9. Since most of the roads built on Indian Reservations is done 
by the Bureau of Indian Affairs and subsequently taken over 
by the Department for maintenance, there has been only a 
minimum of right-of-way action taken by the Department. No 
request has ever been received for a preferential hiring 
agreement in connection with the purchase of right-of-way. 
We doubt that the Department could enter into such an agree- 
ment since the legal responsibility for recruitment rests 
with the State Personnel Commission whose rules provide for 
an equal employment opportunity program for all State posi- 
tions. Additionally, the administration of such an agreement 
would raise very difficult problems. A relatively small num- 
ber of specialized highway employees (engineers, surveyors, 
inspectors, laboratory specialists) are required at each pro- 
ject. (Most of the employees on a project work for the con- 
tractor.) Indians having these skills are in extremely short 


supply and, irrespective of any preferential hiring agree- 
ment, we would welcome the opportunity to consider them any 
time applications would be received providing they would 
show some willingness to move from project to project and 
possess minimal knowledge and/or experience. 

10. The Arizona Highway Department adheres to the plans and 

procedures laid down by the Federal Highway Administration 
to insure that requirements respecting minority employment 
are followed. The requirements are set forth in the call 
for bids and included in the contracts. A pre- job confer- 
ence is held with the Contractor at which these requirements 
are fully explained and he is given a copy of Contractors 
Affirmative Action Guideline with supplementary reporting 
forms. He is required to submit monthly reports which are 
reviewed and in-depth on-site audits are periodically con- 
ducted. In the event of deficiencies or failure to comply 
the Contractor is given a warning notice and a reasonable 
opportunity to take remedial action. Failure to do this re- 
sults in the cancellation of the contract. 

Very truly yours, 

W . A . Ordway 
Deputy Director 




Minority Employment AHDM-V-SIX-B-1- 1 

SzptzmbzA. 7 , J97 1 

Chapter 1 
non-discrimination policy 


The purpose of this chapter is to set forth and re- 
emphasize the Arizona Highway Department's policy of non- 
discrimination to assure that all applicants and employees 
receive fair and equal treatment. 

1.02 POLICY 

The Department will assist and work with the Arizona 
State Personnel Commission in a continuing intensive program to 
recruit minorities and provide them, within available 
resources, opportunities for upgrade training and promotion. 
Wo employee shall discriminate against another employee in 
compensation, or in terms, conditions or privileges of 
employment because of race, sex, religious creed, national 
origin or ancestry. 


This policy is based upon Rule 2.11 of the Arizona State 
Personnel Commission. The Department fully supports both the 
letter and the spirit of that ruling. 


a. All employees are encouraged to assist in the 
Department's minority recruitment effort. Contacts should be 
made with minority organizations to solicit their assistance 
and minorities sought out and assisted in applying to the 
Arizona State Personnel Commission for positions. 

b. All employees are expected to work together 
harmoniously as a team in accomplishing the Department's 
programs. Fairness, understanding and tolerance are basic 
requirements . 

c. Supervisors and employees within the scope of their 
responsibility must: 

(1) Insure that employment, promotions and transfers 
are made solely on the basis of merit. 

(2) Gain the respect and confidence of all by 
insuring that work assignments, overtime, equipment, and 
working conditions are equitably administered consistent with 
work requirements and job classifications. 


AHDM-V-SIX-B-l-2 Minority Employment 


Se.pte.mozi 7 , 19 7 1 

(3) Make extra efforts to train those employees 
whose culture, language or experience is different. 

(4) Avoid actions, statements, comments or names 
which reflect unfavorably or ridicule another's race, sex or 
religious conviction. 

(5) Demonstrate respect for those beliefs which 
others may hold even when one does not fully agree with them. 

(6) Show patience and consideration when others take 
longer to understand or learn. 

(7) Seek to inform themselves on the problems of the 
minority races and join with other enlightened citizens in 
working together to eliminate these problems. 


Supervisors will insure that all employees are informed 
of the contents of this chapter. A copy will be permanently 
posted on all bulletin boards. 


Questions for Mr. Trinquilino U. Madrid, Equal Opportunity 
Representative, Arizona Highway Department 

1. Please describe your duties as Equal Opportunity Representa- 
tive for the Arizona Highway Department. 

2. What specific actions has your Department taken to imple- 
ment an affirmative policy regarding the recruitment and 
hiring of Indians? 

3. Specifically, what have you done to recruit Indian employees 
on a statewide basis? 

4. Have you made recent recruitment trips to Indian reserva- 
tions ? If so, where and when ? 

5. Prior to these recent trips, when was the last time you actually 
visited Indian reservations to inform tribal members of em- 
ployment opportunities with your Department? 

6. Do you have any comments regarding the reason why virtually 
all of your Indian employees appear to be Navajos, and why 
virtually none are found in Southern Arizona? 

Answers from Mr. Trinquilino Madrid, Equal Opportunity 
Representative of the Arizona Highway Department 

I. Initiate and promote an aggressive minority recruitment 

A. Personal contacts have been established with 129 minority 
community organizations including 20 Indian organiza- 
tions to solicit their assistance in encouraging and assist- 
ing minority people to apply to the Personnel Commission 
for Highway jobs. 

B. Monthly lists of Highway jobs for which there are re- 
curring opportunities for employment are mailed to each 
of these organizations. 

C. I coordinate with Arizona State Employment Service 
Offices in recruiting minorities where job vacancies occur. 

D. Minority applicants referred to our office are assisted 
in filling job application forms. 

E. Cooperate with local manpower training programs by 
accepting trainees for on-the-job training with the High- 
way Department. Upon completion of training program 
successful trainees were not being hired by the Depart- 
ment so meetings were held with Supervisors to obtain 
a commitment to hire these individuals. Representatives 
from local manpower training programs met in my office 
to discuss utilization of these trainees. Absent from this 
meeting was the representative employed by the Indian 
Development District of Arizona. 

F. I place Neighborhood Youth Corp trainees (NYC) with 
the Department during the summer months maintaining 


job records, issuing" and distributing payroll. The De- 
partment also maintains a Summer Employment Program 
on a statewide basis. The Arizona State Employment 
Service Offices are responsible for recruiting but attempts 
are made by me to see that minorities are being con- 
tacted. Our past summer employment goals have been set 
at 60 to 70 percent of hires being from disadvantaged 
G. Counsel employees and applicants by providing career 
counseling, promotional opportunities and identifying 
training needs. 
H. Investigate formal and informal complaints. 
I. Participate in our Agency's Supervisor's Training Semi- 
nars which are scheduled at every one of our seven 
district offices. The objective of my presentation is to 
make supervisors aware of their equal employment re- 
J. The Personnel Commission has an active on-going pro- 
ject to review qualification requirements for State posi- 
tions to insure job relevance and eliminate artificial bar- 
riers. I have worked with the Commission in revising the 
qualification requirements to eliminate educational re- 
quirements or lower experience requirements, or both. 
K. I compile and submit a quarterly report to supervisory 
personnel showing the status of our Equal Employment 
II. Our Department's affirmative policy regarding the recruit- 
ment of Indians is as follows: extensive recruitment in areas 
near to or on the reservation when job vacancies occur ; con- 
tact agencies concerned with Indian employment; particu- 
larly meet with Indian employees to request their assistance 
to inform other Indians of job vacancies ; utilize Department 
Personnel to notify local agencies of jobs. Indians now em- 
ployed as Highway Maintenance Man are presently obtaining 
on-the-job training which will enhance their promotional 

Further, the Motor Vehicle Division is presently utilizing 
8 Hopi Indian Agents and 4 Navajo Agents. We have also 
trained 6 Navajo Policemen and 1 Navajo Clerk to do the 
Financial Responsibility pick-up work and paper distribution 
for the entire Navajo Nation. At the present time the ex- 
aminer assigned to Window Rock is a Navajo, and he services 
Teec Nos Pas, Kayenta, Ganado, Chinle and Window Rock. 
Whenever possible to fill any vacancies we endeavor to recruit 
Indians for Reservation work or anywhere within our or- 
ganization where they are qualified. A great deal of the 
problem with our work on the Reservation is that we are 


continually challenged with reference to the constitutionality 
of the enforcement of our laws. We have also used Indians 
for interpreters throughout the state. 

III. Indian organizations on our mailing lists receive monthly job 
vacancy lists and contacts are made with local agencies or or- 
ganizations concerned about Indian employment. Attempts 
are made by my office to utilize staff personnel in local em- 
ployment offices to recruit and assist Indian applicants. 
Arizona Highway Department staff has participated in 2 
Career Day Programs at Tuba City, which is on the Navajo 

IV. Recent recruitment trips were made on March 8 thru the 
10th in District IV, V, and VII. 

The District IV Engineer called our office to notify me of 
3 job vacancies at Chambers, Arizona, which is near the 
Navajo Indian Reservation. He requested that attempts be 
made to recruit qualified Indians for these positions. 
I met with an Indian employee at the Winslow Arizona State 
Employment Service Office to request his assistance in re- 
cruiting qualified Indians. During our conversation he ad- 
mitted that too often they were unable to place qualified 
Indians on jobs due to Indians' reluctance to relocate. 
Further meetings were held with the Chambers Maintenance 
Foreman, and the Ganado Maintenance Foreman, located 
on the reservation. Also a meeting was held at the Ganado 
and Klegtopah Chapter Houses to notify them of the vacan- 
cies. Job application forms were later mailed to both Chapter 

On August 22, 1972, a recruitment trip was made to Cameron 
where a meeting was held at the Cameron Chapter House 
with six potential applicants for Highway Maintenance Man 
I positions. Each one of these individuals were assisted in 
filling out job application forms ; two of the applicants were 
eventually hired. A further meeting was held with Arizona 
Highway Department Indian employees to review present 
working conditions at the installation. 

V. On November 9, 1972, I met with Indian employees at Came- 
ron due to requests for information regarding promotions, 
salaries and the Agency's grievance procedure. 

VI. The Arizona Highway Department's "Turn-Over" ratio 
has been less than 1V&% the past year with the majority of 
vacancies occurring in the Phoenix area. There have been 
practically no job vacancies in Southern Arizona due to the 
lack of construction and a cutback of maintenance work. 
The lack of work has made it necessary for the Depart- 
ment to transfer several employees to other Districts, 
especially to the northern part of the State. This too has 


created employee problems especially those with several years 
of service and who are not willing to relocate elsewhere. Sev- 
eral terminations have occurred as a result. As stated above 
the Arizona Highway Department will continue to recruit 
qualified Indians on or near reservations and to hire them 
when vacancies occur. 


Questions for Mr. Arthur Loring, Equal Opportunity Coordi- 
nator, Arizona Highway Department 

1. As Equal Opportunity Coordinator what are your duties 
and responsibilities (especially with respect to compliance 
reviews of private contractors who contract with the Arizona 
Highway Department) ? 

2. Do you review only those contractors who contract to build 
federally financed highways, or do you also review con- 
tractors who contract to build State roads with State funds? 

3. Do you know the reason why your Department has not estab- 
lished a policy requiring you to review all contractors for 
compliance ? 

4. Who determines whether a contractor is not complying with 
his minority hiring requirements, your office or the Depart- 
ment of Transportation ? 

5. Do you encourage contractors to hire all minority groups 
such as Indians, Mexican-Americans, Negroes, and others? 

6. If a contractor hired a fair percentage of minority employees 
but no Indians, would he, nonetheless, be considered in compli- 
ance with your requirements? 

7. Have a number of companies been found in noncompliance 
for failure to hire Indians and other minorities in sufficient 
numbers in Arizona? If so, have any been found in noncom- 
pliance for this reason more than once? 

8. Has any action been taken either by your Department or the 
Department of Transportation to terminate contracts for 
this reason? If not, why not? 

9. Can you cite employment statistics of private contractors 
in Arizona which show that they hire few or no Indians? 

10. In your opinion, are highway contractors in Arizona coopera- 
tive in their efforts to comply with their minority hiring 
requirements, or is a constant watchdog procedure neces- 
sary to prod them into compliance? 

11. It is our understanding that under present contract require- 
ments the minority employee percentage of private con- 
tractors is supposed to range from 10 to 15%; that as of 
December 1, 1972, this percentage will be increased to 
15-20% ; on December 1, 1973, this percentage will again be 
increased to 20-25% ; and finally, that on December 1, 1974, 
private highway contractors in Arizona will be required under 
the terms of their contracts with your Department to have a 
minority employee percentage ranging from a minimum of 
25% to a maximum of 30%. Is that correct? If so, when were 
these new requirements added to highway contracts, and 
are they part of the Arizona Plan ? 

12. What specific plans have either the Highway Department 
or the Department of Transportation developed to make 


certain that these new contract requirements are, in fact, 
complied with? 
13. Do you believe that the contractors will achieve these newly 
established requirements for increased minority hiring? Why 
or why not? 


Answers from Mr. Arthur Loring, Equal Opportunity Co- 
ordinator of the Arizona Highway Department 

1. As Equal Opportunity Coordinator my duties and responsi- 
bilities primarily involve the administration of the con- 
tract compliance aspect of the EEO Program by monthly 
report evaluations and periodic in-depth reviews to deter- 
mine whether contractors and subcontractors on federal- 
aid highway construction are fulfilling the EEO contract 
requirements of the bid conditions. 

2. Only those contractors and subcontractors who are under 
contract for work on federally financed highways are re- 

3. The department has not established a policy requiring re- 
views on non-federal-aid highway construction projects. 

4. When a review is conducted by the EEO office of the 
Arizona Highway Department, this office makes a deter- 
mination of compliance or non-compliance, subject to 
FHWA concurrence. 

5. Contractors are encouraged to hire all minority groups. 

6. A contractor could be considered in compliance with EEO 
contract requirements under the new bid conditions of the 
"Arizona Plan" if he has an acceptable percentage of minor- 
ities in each trade used, despite the fact that he may have no 
Indians, or no Orientals, or no Negroes, or no Spanish Ameri- 
cans. The contract provisions require a minimum minority 
man-hour percentage for each trade, but this total percent- 
age figure is not subdivided for each ethnic group. 

7. According to the contract provisions of the new bid condi- 
tions of the "Arizona Plan," no contractor or subcontractor 
shall be found to be in non-compliance solely on account of 
its failure to meet its goals within its timetables, but such 
contractor shall be given the opportunity to demonstrate 
that it has instituted all of the specific affirmative action 
steps specified in Part II and has made every good faith effort 
to make these steps work toward the attainment of its goals 
within its timetables, all to the purpose of expanding minor- 
ity manpower utilization on all its projects in the Tucson- 
Phoenix area. 

A couple of contractors have been found to be in non- 
compliance not solely because of insufficient minority man- 
power but because they lacked a viable EEO Program and 
had not put adequate effort into implementing the required 
affirmative action steps stipulated in the contract. 

8. The Arizona Highway Department follows the FHWA In- 
terim Construction Contract Compliance Procedures, which 
are in accord with the general guidelines promulgated by 
the Department of Transportation and the Office of Federal 


Contract Compliance, Department of Labor. These procedures 
and the contract provisions of the new bid conditions of the 
"Arizona Plan" require that the contractor be given time 
to correct deficiencies and to demonstrate good faith efforts 
to comply with all EEO contract requirements. In the past, 
contractors who were not in compliance have taken all 
necessary actions to correct deficiencies and no contracts 
have been terminated. 
9. Attached are sheets of statistics, showing month by month 
totals and percentages for employees on federal-aid highway 
construction projects from January of 1970 to August of 

10. Most contractors do try to comply with minority hiring re- 

11. The percentages indicated in question 11 are correct and 
these goals and timetables were incorporated into highway 
contracts in Arizona, effective January, 1972. 

12. The FHWA has specifically spelled out construction contract 
compliance procedures which the Arizona Highway Depart- 
ment follows. 

At the pre-job conference, the EEO contract requirements 
are fully explained to the contractor and he is given the 
attached requirement review sheets as a supplement. 
Once work begins, monthly reports are checked, reasons 
submitted by contractors when failing to achieve required 
minimum minority manhour percentages are evaluated, no- 
tices are sent to contractors indicating deficiencies, and in- 
depth reviews are scheduled on every contract. 

13. There has been a marked improvement in the contractors' 
EEO Programs and their hiring practices since the new 
bid conditions became effective. There is every indication 
that the contractors will achieve increased minority hiring. 


Summary Statement in Lieu of Testimony of Mr. Glen 
Whitman, Sacaton, Arizona 

As Tribal Manpower Coordinator at the Gila River Reserva- 
tion my duties include insuring adequate employment opportuni- 
ties for tribal members with private employers located on tribal 
industrial parks. These employers are located on the reservation 
pursuant to lease agreements with the tribe. Because of the land 
related nature of the agreement the B.I.A. must approve the 
leases. In this capacity the Bureau does not provide the tribe with 
any technical assistance for assuring maximum Indian employ- 
ment under these lease agreements. 

The leases in question do not contain Indian hiring preference 
clauses. The tribe has, however, considered including such 
clauses in future lease agreements. The monitoring of the em- 
ployment practices of lessees by the tribe is somewhat weak. 
Employers are visited from time to time and their employment 
makeup is examined. Varied responses are received from em- 
ployers under these circumstances: Some provide statistics re- 
flecting good employment practices; some provide statistics re- 
flecting poor employment practices ; in some cases employers have 
refused to cooperate altogether. Leases do not require the sub- 
mission of periodic reports regarding employment make-up. 

Several factors limit the employment opportunities of tribal 
members with private lessees. An important factor is eligibility 
standards. Some employers require irrational qualifications. For 
example, Allis-Chalmers originally hired a large number of Indian 
employees but soon began weeding these employees out through 
what appear to be irrational standards. Among the reasons for 
denying employment have been that applicants have had diabetes 
or have had a tatoo. Just recently this standard was changed to 
three tatoos. No reason was given for being ineligible for employ- 
ment if an individual has three tatoos. Lack of transportation is 
another problem faced by Indians in obtaining and retaining 
employment. Another difficulty has involved the lack of union 
membership by tribal members. Few Indians belong to unions. 
But such membership has been set as a qualification for em- 
ployment by some employers. For example, a few months ago the 
tribe negotiated with National Housing Industries, Inc., for the 
production of housing on the reservation. During negotiations 
the issue of Indian employment and union membership was 
discussed. Representatives of National Housing assured tribal 
representatives that non-membership would not interfere with 
subcontracting part of the work to a tribally operated construc- 
tion company. The tribe was led to believe that about 50 per- 
cent of the total labor force would be Indian. Recently the tribe 
received correspondence from National Housing indicating that 


they would subcontract with a tribal firm only if union members 
would be employed. 

The hiring practices of the State on and near the reservation 
have not been good. Interstate Highway 10 built directly on the 
reservation about five years ago was authorized by the tribe as 
well as the BIA. That authorization contained no affirmative 
hiring requirements and no Indians were hired on the project. 
Nor have Indians been hired on highway maintenance projects 
on or near the reservation. This is to be contrasted with BIA 
road maintenance crews which are predominantly, if not totally, 


Questions for Mr. John Artichoker, Director, Bureau of 
Indian Affairs Phoenix Area Office 

1. The Commission has received statistics from the Employment 
Division of the BIA indicating that although Indians comprise 
a majority of all GS and Wage Board BIA employees, most 
Indians in the BIA are concentrated in lower GS and Wage 
Board categories. For example, in the Phoenix Area Office we 
are informed that while the majority of Indian employees are 
concentrated in GS grades 3, 4 and 5 most non-Indian em- 
ployees are concentrated in grades GS 9 and 11. How do you 
account for this situation ? 

2. Please briefly describe the operation of Indian preference in 
BIA employment and promotion practices. 

3. Why has not Indian preference affected a more even distribu- 
tion of Indian employees throughout your agency? 

4. At the Phoenix hearing in November the Commission heard 
testimony about a wide variety of problems in the area of 
education. A demographic staff paper prepared by Commission 
staff for the hearing indicates that American Indians have a 
significantly lower educational attainment level than any other 
group, and that the average performance levels of Indian 
children attending public schools are usually 2 to 3 years 
behind those of white children. What factors exist in the State 
of Arizona which would contribute to this situation? 

5. In 1969 the Indian Education Senate Subcommittee concluded, 
after extensive investigation, that our Nation's record for 
educating American Indians is a failure of major proportions. 
It has not offered Indian children — "either in years past or 
today — an educational opportunity anywhere near equal to that 
offered the great bulk of American children." What changes 
have taken place during the past 3 years in the educational 
institutions administered by your office to correct this situa- 

6. Since the President's Address of July 1970 on Indian Affairs 
there has been increasing concern for Indian involvement in 
and control of the programs which directly affect their lives. 
The Commission has heard the concern of tribal leaders that 
tribal governments exercise far too little influence over the 
Bureau, its staff and its programs. What efforts are being made 
by your office to increase Indian involvement and control of 
Bureau programs? 


Answers from Mr. John Artichoker, Area Director, Bureau 
of Indian Affairs, Phoenix Area Office 

1. The General Schedule grade level distribution within the 
Phoenix Area, as described, is due to a combination of 

a. All BIA employees must meet minimal Civil Service Com- 
mission standards regardless of whether vacancies are 
filled by initial appointment, promotion, reassignment or 
reinstatement. Until recently the number of Indians who 
could meet the standards for GS-9 and above positions 
has been considerably below that of non-Indians. This is 
particularly true with respect to the GS-9 level, the grade 
for journeyman professional teacher — which is the occu- 
pation found to be in greatest incidence at GS-9. Turnover 
is slow in the higher grades, but as future vacancies occur 
they will for the most part be filled with Indians in view 
of Indian preference now applying to promotions, as well 
as accessions, and the fact that the technical and pro- 
fessional Indian labor supply is constantly growing. 

b. Most GS-3 through GS-5 positions are located at the 
reservation or field level where the Indian labor supply is 
greatest. Many of these positions represent sub- 
journeyman levels which have been established through 
the process of position redesign in order to employ local 
Indians who have potential, but do not meet the Civil 
Service Commission standards for the full performance 
or journeyman level (to which they eventually progress). 
This is particularly true concerning Irrigation Operators, 
Policemen and Instructional Aids (Dormitory Attend- 
ants). As non-Indian GS-3 through GS-5 employees va- 
cate their positions they will most certainly be filled with 
Indians. Phoenix Area wage employment does not reflect 
the same gradation concentrations as is true of General 
Schedule personnel. For example, current figures reveal 
42% of the hourly pay supervisors and 74% of the non- 
supervisors are Indians with over 50% of the latter above 
the unskilled level. 

2. Indian preference within BIA operates as follows: 

a. Initial Avvointment/ Reinstatement — Individuals meeting 
minimal U.S. Civil Service Commission standards and 
furnishing proof of one-quarter or more degree Indian 
blood are given absolute preference. Furthermore, such 
Indian preference eligibles may be appointed exclusive 
of the Civil Service Commission competitive examining 

b. Promotion from Within the BIA — Employees meeting 
minimum U.S. Civil Service Commission standards and 


having furnished proof of one-quarter or more degree 
Indian blood, who apply in response to a vacancy advertise- 
ment, are given absolute preference provided they are 
among the best qualified candidates. In this connection 
separate lists of Indian and non-Indian candidates are 
prepared and submitted to the selecting supervisor. If a 
non-Indian is selected, final action cannot be taken until 
approval is granted by the Commissioner of Indian Af- 
fairs based on a written justification reflecting that the 
non-Indian selected is exceptionally well qualified. 
c. Reduction in Force — Indian employees are placed above 
non-Indian employees regardless of length of service with- 
in each subgroup on initial reduction-in-force retention 
registers (initial registers carry employees occupying oc- 
cupational similar positions having the same grade 
level). Indian employees may displace other Indian or 
non-Indian employees occupying positions for which they 
are qualified and represented by other retention registers 
only because they are in a higher subgroup. 
(Note: Indian preference does not apply with respect to 
filling BIA vacancies by lateral movement except in response to 
a POB or from outside BIA, or within BIA when the move is to 
a position with promotion potential.) 

3. The principal reasons why Indian preference has not to date 
effected a more even General Schedule grade distribution of 
Indian employees in the Phoenix Area are discussed under la. 
above, i.e., Civil Service standards and availability of Indian 
candidates for either initial appointment, reinstatement or 
promotion. Another reason that Indian preference has not 
effected a more even General Schedule grade distribution 
within the Phoenix Area is that prior to July 1972, Indian 
preference did not apply to promotions. 

4. Factors which contribute to the average performance levels 
of Indian students attending public schools being 2 or 3 years 
behind white students 

The majority of bilingual children or children who come 
from homes where the English spoken in the home is sub- 
standard enter school with language deficiencies. 
The majority of children enter school as non-readers. During 
the first three years of school while reading skills are being 
taught, it is necessary that most classroom instruction be 
done orally. During this time, vocabulary development and 
word meaning is taking place, but in-depth comprehension 
and association lags in relation to word development. In ac- 
cordance with Dr. Bryde (Indian Psychology), Dr. Bob 
Wilson (English As A Second Language — Navajo Project) 
and Drs. Bereiter and Engelmann (Teaching the Disad- 


vantaged Child in the Pre-School) when bilingual students 
reach the 4th, 5th and 6th grades where instruction relies 
more heavily on individual reading and comprehension abil- 
ities, an academic lag becomes apparent. 

1. In Reading, the Metropolitan Reading Test was admin- 
istered to 317 3rd grade students in January '71 in 16 Phoe- 
nix Area Office schools. The mean score for these students 
was 2.5. The same test was administered in January '72, to 
295 3rd grade students in 16 Phoenix Area Office schools. 
Again, the mean score was 2.5. The students in Arizona 
public schools showed a mean of 2.9. 

2. Socio-economic problems: Children come from low-income 
families with the resulting problems of: 

Poverty: The median income of families on the reserva- 
tion ranged from $1,200 per year to $4,500 per 
year. The median income for white families was 
two to four times greater than this. 
Inadequate food: Lack of proper nutrition is especially 
crucial during pre-natal care and up until 
the child is six years of age. It is during 
this time that the brain cells do the great- 
est amount of developing. 
Inadequate housing: Until recently, a majority of the 
housing in these areas was sub- 
standard or at least inadequate. Also 
there are problems with space for 
study for the children. 
Mental health problems: Caused by lack of opportunity, 

the unfulfilled expectations, the 
purposelessness of their exist- 
ence, the ambivilence of their 

3. Conflicts of values: Indian students are not achievement 

oriented; therefore, the motivational 
techniques used in the classrooms are 
not meaningful. 
5. Changes which have taken place during the past 3 years in 
education administered by this Area Office: 

TITLE I. The funding increased from $650,000 in 1970 to $1.7 
million in 1973. 

1. Implementation of one or more innovative specialized 
reading-language programs in all schools of the Phoenix 
Area Office. One of these special programs at Sherman Indian 
High School was identified by a team from Columbia Uni- 
versity as one of the most outstanding and exemplary pro- 
grams in the nation. Subsequent reading programs have been 


modeled after this one. It was chosen to be in the Model 
Schools Program sponsored by Dr. Lloyd Trump. There are 
only 50 schools in the United States in this. Sherman Indian 
High School is the only all-Indian school. 

2. The establishment of a Parental Advisory Council in each of 
the 21 schools in the Phoenix Area. 

3. The hiring of over 300 teachers and aides to operate programs 
for the academically deficient children over the past 3 years. 

4. The implementation of five special education projects serving 
eight schools and hiring of a special education consultant to 
train teachers and serve the 100 children. These schools are 
Kerwo Day School, Vaya Chin Day School, Santa Rosa Ranch 
Day School, Santa Rosa Boarding School, Casa Blanca Day 
School, Salt River Day School, Phoenix Indian High School and 
Sherman Indian High School. These projects are funded 
through joint use of ESEA Title VI and Title I monies. All 
five projects are designed around the resource room concept 
of special education. This structure allows the student to con- 
tinue participation in regular classroom activities with his 
peer group whenever possible. A student receives special 
attention in those skill areas which are causing him to ex- 
perience difficulty. This approach eliminates the stigma of 
special education. 

The special education project at Santa Rosa Ranch Day 
School is designed to serve all of the Papago Agency schools 
and is combined with a special dormitory facility. 

5. The establishment of a "school within a school" at Phoenix 
Indian High School to serve the special needs of the incoming 
students. This program is aimed specifically at preventing 

6. A comprehensive evaluation of special programs serving de- 
ficient children, leading to the replication of successful op- 
erations and the cancellation and/or modification of less suc- 
cessful ones. 

7. Specialized math programs at 12 schools are in place. These 
schools are: Casa Blanca Day School, Gila Crossing Day 
School, St. Johns School, Blackwater Day School, Sherman 
Indian High School, Phoenix Indian High School, Keams Can- 
yon Boarding School, Polacca Day School, Vaya Chin Day 
School, Kerwo Day School, Santa Rosa Ranch Day School and 
Santa Rosa Boarding School. These math programs are uti- 
lizing special elementary materials from the University of 
Wisconsin Math Program and Tutor Computers. 

8. Indian arts and culture programs serving children and staff 
in 13 schools are provided by utilizing Mobile Instructional 
Units manned by Art Specialists. Schools being serviced are: 
Theodore Roosevelt Boarding School, John F. Kennedy Day 


School, Cibecue Day School, Casa Blanca Day School, Gila 
Crossing Day School, St. Johns School, Santa Rosa Boarding 
School, Santa Rosa Ranch Day School, Kerwo Day School, 
Vaya Chin Day School, Phoenix Indian High School, Black- 
water Day School and Salt River Day School. 
9. Two Community Schools have been established in the 
Phoenix Area. One Community School is located on the Hopi 
Reservation at Hotevilla. The other Community School is 
Phoenix Indian High School. The Community School concept 
is being carried out in accordance with the philosophy of the 
Mott Foundation and the Community Schools Department at 
Arizona State University. The school facilities are made 
available to parents and members of the Indian community 
during the evening. This concept is to maximize the utiliza- 
tion of school facilities for the members of the community 
that they were designed to serve. 

received special emphasis since 1969. 

1. A Community School was developed at Sacaton and turned 
over to the public school board for its operation. The all- 
Indian school board operates from funds received through the 
State, Federal 874 and 815 monies and JOM. 

2. The Blackwater Community School is a tribally-operated 
school located on the Gila River Reservation. The Bureau of 
Indian Affairs contracts with the tribe for funds to operate 
this elementary school. The school was a former Bureau 
school with grades one and two. Since the contract for the 
total operation of the school, the community has initiated a 
Kindergarten Program at Blackwater. 


1. One fine program which has been initiated is the "Young 
Audiences", a co-sponsored program of the Division of Educa- 
tion and Young Audiences of Arizona. They sponsored 66 
concerts in '70-'71, 3 or 4 concerts for each school of Phoenix 
Area Office in '71-'72 which included dancers that year. This 
year the students clustered around the artists after the con- 
certs, which indicates increased appreciation of their pro- 

2. During the '71-'72 school year, a series of Language-oriented 
learning materials (35 mm slides of the familiar — the local 
environment and every day living on the Fort Apache, Pa- 
pago, Pima and Salt River Reservations) which were sug- 
gested by Indian people in each community, were developed. 

3. The Division of Education and the Arizona Commission of 


the Arts and Humanities, through The Southwestern Creative 
Writing Project, are bringing a series of young writers of 
predominantly Indian origin to five elementary schools to 
present the "Wishes, Lies, and Dreams" program for creative 
writing. Each school will receive four writers for two days 
per month during the first semester of the 1972-73 school 

4. Science Curriculum Improvement Study Program (SCIS) be- 
gun in the '70-'71 school year is continuing. It is implemented 
in each elementary school and as a pilot program at Phoenix 
Indian High School. It is an ungraded sequential physical and 
life science program which turns the classroom into a labora- 
tory. The laboratory experiences enable a student to relate 
scientific concepts to the real world in a meaningful way. 

A Nature Trail has been developed at the Santa Rosa Board- 
ing School with help from the National Park Service. The 
trail is the first step in establishing an environmental educa- 
tion program. 

5. Developing Mathematical Processes is being implemented at 
John F. Kennedy Day School, as a validation program which 
will allow the teachers to give input as to what changes are 
needed in the program to meet the needs of Indian students. 
DMP is a new elementary mathematics program currently 
under development at the Wisconsin Research and Develop- 
ment Center. It is based on an activity approach to math. 

A math lab has been implemented at Sherman Indian High 
School utilizing desk top computers to teach the basic skills 
in math and to teach the basic steps in computer program- 

6. In Social Studies, a program has been implemented at Hote- 
villa Day School and Theodore Roosevelt Boarding School 
as a pilot program. MACOS is a social studies program about 
"Man, His Nature as a Species and the Forces that Shaped 
and Continue to Shape His Humanity . . ." 

7. The number of kindergarten units increased from eight dur- 
ing the '70-'71 school year to 10 during 11-12. Two new units 
were completed at Santa Rosa and Second Mesa bringing the 
total number of units to 12 during '72-'73. Three new units 
will be completed at Cibecue, Kerwo, and Vaya Chin with 
FY 73 construction. Nearly all of the kindergartens are 
over-enrolled and two have double sessions. 

SUMMER PROGRAMS. The philosophy of the Phoenix Area 
Office Education Division is to meet changing needs of Indian 
youth in providing quality education at all levels. Our schools and 
agencies are in strong support of continuing the educational 
process during the summer months. Major emphasis is on pre- 


kindergarten and elementary-age children's summer programs. 
Since 1970, each agency has become more involved in utilizing 
other Federal Departments, such as Labor, Defense, Agriculture, 
HEW, plus other branches of the BIA. Special Indian Youth 
Employment Programs were made available for 142 youths this 
past summer 1972. It should be noted that for FY 72, all schools 
in the PAO suffered a 5% cutback in their annual operating 
budget. Some agencies used Summer Program funds in lieu of 
their cutback. 

Education Programs are aimed at helping the Indian people 
realize their own potentials in solving their own personal and 
community problems. Over the past fiscal year, many adult Indians 
were able to acquire GEDs and/or training to upgrade their job 


The Bureau of Indian Affairs encourages all aualified American 
Tndian students to seek higher education for the purpose of de- 
veloping leadership and increased employment opportunities in 
professional and vocational fields. 

Scholarship funds for students aiming at the four-year college 
degree (or higher degrees) are appropriated annually by Con- 
gress to aid American Indian students who are in financial need. 
There has been a dramatic raise in this appropriation. In FY 
1970, the amount appropriated was $3,848,000. In FY 1973, the 
appropriation is approximately $16,000,000.) 

In FY 1970, 4,000 students were helped under the Higher Educa- 
tion Grant Program. During FY 1972, over 10,000 students were 
under the program. 

This FY 1973, there will be nearly 15,000 American Indian stu- 
dents on the higher education grant program. 
In the Phoenix Area in FY 1970, there were 486 students on the 
higher education grant program. During this FY 1973 over 1,000 
students will benefit. 

The Phoenix Area works very closely with all tribes within 
the Area. Many of the tribes supplement the BIA grants. All 
other sources of financial aids available, such as Educational 
Opportunity Grants, etc., from the various colleges and univer- 
sities are also used so that the total need of the student is met. 
At the request of Indian Tribal Education Committees and Indian 
Education Coordinators, the Phoenix Area has contracted with 
the colleges for counselors for Indian students where the colleges 


did not already have them. Seven colleges now have Indian coun- 
The attached graphs give a visual picture. 






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The Arizona State Department of Library Extension Service, 
Hopi Community Action Program, and the Phoenix Area Office, 
BIA, are cooperating to bring Community libraries on the Hopi 

The Educational Technology Department of Arizona State Uni- 
versity and the PAO Education Division was awarded a grant 
for the training of 15 American Indians as school library-media 
personnel by the Bureau of Library Technology, Office of Educa- 
tion, HEW. The program is in its second year of operation. 

The PAO and the Elementary Department of Arizona State 
were awarded a Cooperative College-School science grant, to 
train all the Phoenix Area teachers in the utilization of SCIS. 

In Sept., '72, PIHS established a supportive counseling program 
with ASU. This program allows for 8 students of ASU's Grad- 
uate School of Social Work to provide social services to PIHS 
students and their families. The program was designed to work 
in a supportive role to the existing counseling staff at PIHS. 
(The program is funded through NIMH.) 

6. The Indian tribes of the Nation working with the Bureau of 
Indian Affairs began several years ago the process of allow- 
ing tribal governments to assume control of federally funded 
programs that affect Indian people in reservation life on a day- 
to-day basis. 

Commissioners Nash and Bennett, particularly the latter, under- 
stood the process intimately and worked diligently to set it 
in motion. It remained, though, for President Nixon to recog- 
nize the two major limitations under which Indian tribes and 
the Bureau of Indian Affairs were laboring in trying to bring 
about Indian control of federally funded Indian programs. These 
limitations were set out in the President's July 8, 1970, message 
to Congress. 

First, the President saw the threat of termination as a limita- 
tion on assumption of control of programs by Indian tribes. 
Congress has now renounced the termination policy as expressed 
in House Concurrent Resolution 108 of the 83rd Congress. Sec- 
ond, the President recognized the legal limitations on the as- 
sumption of control of Bureau programs. The Congress has not 
as yet acted upon the President's recommendations in this re- 

Not all of us who deal in Indian Affairs understand the legal 
limitations nor appreciate the fact that Congress has not given 
us the tools the President recommended. For example, we have 
had to spend a great deal of time correcting some of the errors 
made in the form of contracts with tribes for the performance 


of what formerly was a Bureau service. A few tribes regard an 
insistence on making a technically correct contract as a lack of 
control over the program. However, we have been able in most 
instances to explain that the technical procedures are required 
by law and regulations which the Bureau cannot change. 
We have been fairly successful in explaining to tribes that there 
are those matters that are exclusively within the tribe's 
purview — there are those things that are exclusively within 
the Bureau's purview — and there are those matters for which 
the Tribe and the Bureau share responsibility. 
There are things we can do within the framework of existing 
laws, by using the tools that we have today. These are some 

Very extensive efforts have been made by the Phoenix Area 
Office to increase Indian involvement in Bureau programs. Of a 
budget of approximately $48 million in 1971, $19.2 million was 
contracted. Of the $19.2 million contracts, $7.6 million was in 
Buy-Indian contracts. It is felt that through this contracting, 
Indian involvement and control of programs was extensive in 
this Area. 

In the matter of Indian involvement as it relates to Education, 
this has been answered in the question above wherein reference 
is made to each of the schools in the Phoenix Area having school 
boards in addition to an Areawide School Board. Also, under 
Title I, each school has a Parent Advisory Council, which has 
explicit in its organization involvement of not only representa- 
tives of the people in the area served by the school but also 
the involvement of the parents themselves. The purpose of this 
Parent Advisory Council is to have parental involvement in de- 
veloping school programs. 

In an attempt to involve tribal leadership in the Phoenix Area 
and to increase understanding by reservation leadership of 
Bureau programs, intensive effort was made beginning in the 
Fall of 1971 to take key Area staff to each reservation for meet- 
ings with tribal councils and agency staff. This program of 
"taking the services" of the Area Office to the field resulted in 
the visitation of 31 of the 44 reservations between October 1971 
and October 1972. 

Another key factor of Indian involvement in the Phoenix Area 
has been the participation of tribal councils with agency and 
Area staff in discussing budgets and the budget processes, with 
recommendations for program development reservation by reser- 
vation. There was involvement of Indian leadership not only in 
the PPE process but in the Reservation Acceleration Program. 

Another significant contribution in Indian involvement has been 
the cooperative efforts between the Phoenix Area Office of 


the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Inter Tribal Council of 
Arizona in planning approaches to dealing with legislative action 
in the State of Arizona, as it relates to the imposition of lease- 
hold taxes on the reservations in Arizona. For at least the last 
five years the Area Office and tribal leadership in Arizona have 
cooperated in an effort to provide information to State legislators. 
The high point of this relationship resulted in a meeting in 
Scottsdale, Arizona, this past summer involving tribal leader- 
ship, State legislators, State officials and BIA personnel, to dis- 
cuss problems concerning reservation development and to negoti- 
ate an approach to matters of mutual concern between the tribes 
and the State of Arizona. 

At present in the area of development of a roads system, we 
are establishing a "highway commission" for the State of Arizona 
whereby tribal leaders will be selected to serve on a commission 
that will establish priorities on road construction programs in 
their district. 

Other examples of Indian involvement are attached (Exhibits 
A, B, C, D and E; available in Commission files). 


Questions for Mr. Curtis Geiogamah, Assistant Area Direc- 
tor and Contracting Officer, Bureau of Indian Affairs 
Phoenix Area Office 

1. In the capacity of Contracting Officer you have responsibility 
for construction contracts let by the Bureau to private 
contractors, do you not? 

2. How are construction contracts let by your office? 

3. About how many such contracts are let from your office 

4. About what percentage of these contracts are let to Indians 
under the Buy Indian Act? 

5. Is your office doing anything to encourage greater Indian 
involvement under that Act? 

6. The Commission has heard numerous complaints regarding 
the lack of Indian employment by private contractors oper- 
ating under Bureau contracts. Such contracts contain an 
employment preference clause do they not? 

7. What does this clause state? 

8. What is the term "local residents" interpreted to mean? 

9. Does the use of the term "local residents" instead of "In- 
dian" inhibit the Bureau from guaranteeing Indian pref- 
erence ? 

10. How are the employment practices of private contractors 
operating under Bureau contracts monitored? Do you feel 
this process is effective? 

11. How many Bureau contractors have been found to be in 
violation of their contractual hiring obligations during the 
past year? During the past five years? 


Answers from Mr. Curtis Geiogamah, Assistant Area Direc- 
tor and Contracting Officer, Bureau of Indian Affairs, 
Phoenix Area Office 

1. Yes. The contracting function is under my supervision. 
However, I do not exercise day-to-day supervision over its 
operations. There are three contracting officers' positions for 
this Area as stipulated by CFR 14 H-l.451.2. These positions 
are the Area Director, Assistant Area Director for Admin- 
stration and the Area Property and Supply Officer. The im- 
mediate day-to-day supervision of the contracting functions 
and signing of contracts is the responsibility of the Area 
Property and Supply Officer except in those cases when he 
feels that a contract should be signed by either the Area 
Director or the Assistant Area Director for Administration. 

2. Construction contracts are let in strict conformance and 
compliance with federal procurement regulations. Briefly, 
these regulations require that we formally advertise these con- 
tracts from 30 to 60 days, set a firm bid opening date and 
make an award to the lowest bidder, providing he meets 
all stipulations of the contract specifications. 

3. There are approximately 40 construction contracts let from 
this office annually. 

4. Approximately 6 percent of fiscal year 1972 contracts were 
let under authority of the Buy Indian Act. Since July 1, 
1972, through the current date, three contracts have been 
awarded under this authority. This amounts to approximately 
9 percent of our current construction contracts. 

5. Yes. Periodic meetings are held either with individual tribes 
or with inter-tribal organizations at which we inform the 
attendees of the nature of the Act and have discussion con- 
cerning the procedures of contracting under this authority. 

6. Yes. 

7. "Preference in employment from all work to be performed 
on this contract, including subcontracts thereunder, shall 
be given to local residents subject to the provisions of clause 
21, Equal Opportunity." 

8. We have interpreted the term "local residents" to mean 
Indian when the construction work is being done on or near 
an Indian reservation. 

9. No. We in the Phoenix Area do not feel that the term local 
residents inhibits us from guaranteeing Indian preference. 

10. The employment practices of private contractors operating 
under the Bureau contracts are monitored principally by 
selected Contracting Officer representative (COR). It is felt 
that this process is reasonably effective. It is mandatory 
that the contractual staff be expanded to be in a position to 


provide closer supervision of all aspects of the basic con- 
tract to include compliance. 
11. According to our official files, no Bureau contractor has 
been reported to have been in violation of their contract hiring 
obligation during the past year or during the past five years. 
(In addition to the prepared answers to the above questions, 
Mr. Geiogamah provided the following additional information 
during an interview: 

In the past the BIA was able to generate more Indian employ- 
ment under its contracts through the exercise of its force ac- 
count authority. Pursuant to this authority, the BIA awarded 
itself construction contracts, hired its own employees to do the 
labor and ran its own training programs. Up until the early 
fifties, much that is done today by private contractors was done 
by Indians, pursuant to this authority. For example, the milk 
and meat consumed at an Indian hospital would have normally 
been raised by Indians in the community. Because such inter- 
ests as the dairy industry claimed that this was undue competi- 
tion, President Eisenhower issued an Executive Order requiring 
the BIA to put services and supplies out to public bid. Today, 
the BIA does some force account on construction contracts but 
this is subject to limitation because of the Bureau's lack of heavy 

Mr. Geiogamah was asked about complaints from Indians to 
the effect that the Buy Indian Act has recently undergone a 
reinterpretation requiring stricter standards by Indian firms 
and erasing advantages that Indian firms had under that Act. 
This is not accurate, according to Geiogamah. The Buy Indian 
Act gives the Bureau the authority to negotiate with an Indian 
firm outside of the competitive process. Accordingly, the BIA 
can be more lenient and flexible with Indian firms than with 
non-Indian firms. Because of poor experiences recently under 
this lenient approach, stricter adherence to established standards 
have been required as a matter of policy.) 


Questions for Mr. James Dunn, Property and Supply Officer, 
Phoenix Bureau of Indian Affairs Area Office 

1. Do you have the responsibility for monitoring the employ- 
ment practices of private employers under contracts let by 
your office? 

2. What efforts does your office make to monitor the employ- 
ment practices of these contractors ? 

3. Has your office ever received from the Washington Office any 
indication of the need for more vigorous enforcement in this 
regard ? 

4. To your knowledge has your office ever had the occasion to 
cancel or terminate a contract because of the contractor's 
employment practices ? 

5. Are you satisfied that such employers, as a general rule, hire 
adequate numbers of Indians on their projects? 

6. If the answer to question 5 is no, what must be done to 
improve the situation? 


Answers from Mr. James Dunn, Property and Supply Officer, 
Phoenix Bureau of Indian Affairs Area Office 
The statements made in answer to the basic questions are directed 
towards construction contracts. 

1. The BIA Procurement Regulations (BIA Procurement Reg. 
Release No. 1-11/24/69) cites Federal Register, Vol. 34, No. 
163 dated August 26, 1969, Subpart 14H-1.4 PROCURE- 
pertains to the designation of Contracting Officer positions. 
The organizational titles are designated as Contracting Officer 
positions that encompass the basic responsibility for the es- 
tablishment of procedures to include the monitorship of em- 
ployment practices of employees under contract. Any individ- 
ual so designated by the authority mentioned above has 
responsibility for monitorship of the contract. 

2. Monitorship of the employment practices of contractors 
starts with the preconstruction contractor's conference. Em- 
ployment practices and policies are discussed in detail with 
the contractor. A copy of the agenda for preconstruction 
contractor's conference is enclosed. For each contract, a Con- 
tracting Officer's representative (COR) is appointed and the 
duties of such an individual are outlined in detail for his 
general guidance. A copy of the form used to designate the 
Contracting Officer's representative is enclosed as well as a 
sample letter to the contractor informing him of the assigned 
COR. (Enclosures mentioned are available in Commission 
files.) Specific reference is made to labor practices in conform- 
ance with contract terms. Instructions to contractors are 
provided in writing and specific information relating to the 
hire of local residents is incorporated in the original request 
for bid that is mailed to prospective contractors. Detailed 
COR reports are rendered during the progress of the con- 
tract. Payroll journal statements that show the name, address 
and social security number of each employee are submitted 
by the contractor. As each contract is awarded, a Standard 
Form 99 entitled "Notice of Award of Contract" is mailed 
to the Department of Labor, Wage and Hour and Public Con- 
tracts Division, giving all of the vital information pertaining 
to the contract. Because of the increased contractual work- 
load, there is a dire need for additional personnel to strengthen 
contractual activities particularly as they relate to compli- 
ance. Requests have repeatedly been made to Washington 
for such personnel. On October 5, 1971, a detailed program 
was submitted that requested more contractual personnel to 
support a greatly increased workload. No additional personnel 
have been made available as of this date. 


3. Routine contract administrative techniques (CAT) have been 
issued by the Washington Office from time to time but these 
have been in the nature, primarily, of clarification of existing 
regulations. On April 26, 1962, Phileo Nash, Commissioner 
BIA, sent a wire to Area Director, Phoenix, Arizona, stating 
all construction contracts entered into by the Bureau shall 
contain a preference to local residents clause. The clause to be 
included in the contract was to read as follows: "preference 
in employment from all work to be performed under this 
contract, including subcontract thereunder, shall be given to 
local residents subject to the provisions of clause 21 Equal 

4. To the best of my knowledge, this office has not had the 
occasion to cancel or terminate a contract because of the 
contractor's employment practices. 

5. I am satisfied that such employers, as a general rule, hire 
adequate numbers of Indians on their projects. 

(In addition to these prepared answers, Mr. Dunn offered the 
following information during an interview: 

The language of the Indian Preference Clause of the BIA 
Construction Contract used to say "Indian" but in 1962 was 
changed to "local residents," because it was felt that use of the 
term Indian was violative of civil rights laws. This was prior to 
the passage of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and its 
special Indian preference exemptions. The Area Office has as a 
matter of policy always interpreted the words "local residents" to 
mean local Indian residents. 

Mr. Dunn was asked how penalty of a contractor would be 
effected should an appropriate case arise. He stated that the initial 
decision would be made at the Area Office level and then for- 
warded to Washington for a final ruling by the Department of 
Labor. Dunn has been in his present position since 1967, and 
stated that during that time he has received no formal complaint 
from any Indian tribe regarding the employment practices of 
construction contractors. 

Regarding complaints from some tribal leaders that Indians 
are not involved in the planning of construction projects on the 
reservation, Dunn stated that as a matter of course tribal leaders 
are invited to attend preconstruction conferences which are held 
prior to all projects. Many tribal leaders, he stated, do not re- 
spond to these invitations.) 



Washington, D. C. 20125 

December 5, 1972 

Honorable Gary K. Nelson 
Attorney General 
State of Arizona 
Phoenix, Arizona 

Dear Mr. Attorney General 

When the Commission's hearing in Phoenix, Arizona, this November was 
unavoidably cancelled, due to Commissioner Ruiz' illness, Chairman 
Freeman stated that the Commission would continue the investigation 
of Indian civil rights problems and complete the record of the hear- 

To carry out this mandate we are sending you questions for comple- 
tion. These questions would have been posed to you at the public 
session had you had a chance to testify. Your answers will become 
part of the hearing record, to be published by the Commission. 

Please answer these questions fully and make whatever additional 
comments relevant to the subject matter you feel are necessary. As 
it is essential to complete the hearing record as soon as possible, 
I would appreciate your returning your answers to this office no 
later than December 15, 1972. 

Members of my staff, and, perhaps, myself, will be visiting Arizona 
during the week of December 11, and will be in contact with you to 
discuss these questions and additional matters which might arise. 

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation. 




Questions for Mr. Gary K. Nelson, Attorney General, State 
of Arizona. 

1. What responsibility does the State Government of Arizona 
have with respect to reservation Indians ? 

2. It is our understanding that the Arizona Civil Rights Com- 
mission will be placed under the jurisdiction of the Attorney 
General's office sometime in 1973. Is that correct? If so, for 
what purpose is this transfer taking place? 

3. In your opinion, is the present law under which the Arizona 
Civil Rights Commission operates adequate? If not, why not? 

4. Do you intend to propose that the State legislature enact a 
new law incorporating greater enforcement powers? If so, 
please elaborate regarding the provisions of this proposed 
legislation and explain how it will result in making the 
operations of the Civil Rights Commission more effective, 
particularly in the field of public and private employment 
opportunities for Indians and other minorities ? 

5. It is our understanding that the State Personnel Commission 
currently is drafting an Affirmative Action Program which 
will establish a policy of equal employment opportunity for 
all persons insofar as employment in State agencies is con- 
cerned. We further understand that the Federal Government 
requires that Arizona and other States who receive certain 
Federal grants are now required to promulgate such affirma- 
tive action programs. Has the Arizona Civil Rights Com- 
mission been involved in the preparation of this plan, and will 
they monitor its operations once it is placed into effect? 

6. As Attorney General you are an ex officio member of the 
Arizona Commission of Indian Affairs. Do you have any 
comments on the functions and operations of this Commission 
and do you have any suggestions as to improving its effective- 




£ttont*tj Htntad 


January 2, 1973 

Mr. JohnH. Powell, Jr. 

General Counsel 

United States Commission on Civil Rights 

Washington, D. C. 20425 

Re: Indian Questions 

Dear John: 

Please excuse the inordinate delay in responding to your letter 
and questionnaire of last month. It seems like I was either 
out o£ town or sick the whole month of December. 

The answer to the first question is probably dispositive of the 
whole Indian problem. Since the State of Arizona has very little 
jurisdiction over or responsibility for Indians living on reserva- 
tions , is it any wonder that the programs for such Indians are 
lacking in coordination, purpose or depth. Having said this, 
however, there is a great concern over the Indian and a desire 
to help him reap the benefits of 20th Century America. The 
question is how, particularly in the light of the tri- jurisdictional 
disaster facing any agency that wants to help. 

In answering question number 2, the Civil Rights Commission is 
now under this office as a result of the Governor's proclamation 
last month. I have no real information as to why the change was 
made by our Legislature. Assuming the best, I can only hope 
that their interests were to insure better enforcement and 
greater visibility of the work of the Division. In any event, this 
will be our aim. 

In combining answers to your questions 3 and 4, I would say the 
current law is inadequate and we will try to have it amended in 
1973. The main reason the current statute is inadequate is that 
it provides no affirmative enforcement powers whatsoever and 
provides only for a procedure whereby an aggrieved person is 


eventually allowed to file a misdemeanor complaint before a 
Justice of the Peace. The maximum penalty is a $300 fine. In 
order to get this he must, in effect, be guilty of two violations. 

I have had several different people on my staff work on possible 
amendments. I am enclosing for your information an unedited set. 
We intend to have our final recommendations ready for submission 
by February 1, 1973. If you have any further suggestions, please 

The thrust of these amendments is to eliminate criminal sanctions, 
provide full civil and injunctive authority, and to provide for civil 
penalties in addition to forced compliance. It is our feeling that 
the suggested amendments should cover any problem previously 
encountered with the E.E.O. C. and other federal agencies. 

As to Indians, see current A.R.S. § 41-1464, wherein certain 
businesses on or close to Indian reservations are permitted to 
discriminate in favor of reservation Indians. 

In answer to question number 5, please be advised that the Ari- 
zona Civil Rights Commission worked very closely with the State 
Personnel Commission in drafting an Affirmative Action Program 
for all of state government. It's my understanding that the 
program will be effectuated very soon. Our new division will be 
responsible for monitoring its effectiveness and operation. 

In answer to the final question, the promotion of fellowship ri 
the area of Indian Affairs is not a recent development in Arizona. 
Arizona's Commission of Indian Affairs, which is the official 
link between the tribal governments and the state government, 
was established by Arizona's Legislature nearly twenty years ago. 

The responsibility of the Commission is well stated in Commission 
Chairman Bill Alcaida's most recent annual report to Arizona's 
Governor (a copy of which is also enclosed). Chairman Alcaida 
wrote as follows: 


"The problems confronting Arizona Indians 
in attaining a place of social, economic and 
political equality with other citizens of 
this state and nation are complex and will 
take both time and patience to solve. The 
members of the Commission recognize and 
accept the responsibility which has been en- 
trusted to them to contribute to the solutions 
of these problems . " 

An example of a recent and noteworthy accomplishment of 
the Commission was its instrumental role in the conduct of 
a town-hall form of gathering, which was held approximately 
three months ago on the Salt River Indian Reservation. More 
than 90% of the residents of the various Indian reservations 
within the State of Arizona were represented at the gathering, 
together with a substantial number of legislative and executive 
officials of Arizona's state government. 

From time to time, money — from both private and public 
sources — is made available for purposes consistent with those 
of the Commission, but the Commission presently is not em- 
powered to accept and administer such funds. However, legis- 
lation has been proposed in Arizona to allow the Commission to 
receive and expend such funds in an effort to assure the most 
direct benefit in those areas where improvement is most needed. 
(See attached copy. ) 

Although the Commission already plays a significant role in the 
improvement of relations in the area of Indian Affairs, such 
legislation, in my opinion, would help greatly to increase the 
effectiveness of the Commission. 

I enjoyed our long conversation in Washington, and hope we will 
be able to get together again soon. If you have any questions 


concerning the matters which I have outlined in this letter, 
please do not hesitate to call me. Due to my infirmities in 
December, I still have not contacted personally the Pima 
County Sheriff in regard to the other matter we discussed, 
shall attempt to do so this week and will see what informa- 
tion I can make available to you. 

Best wishes for a Happy New Year. 

Sincerely yours, 

The Attorney General 



(See Exhibit No. 11 for the enclosures mentioned above.) 


Questions for Mr. J. Ford Smith, Executive Director, 
Arizona Civil Rights Commission 

1. Please describe the Arizona Civil Rights Commission, its 
purpose, powers, and responsibilities? 

2. What specific authority does it have regarding discrimina- 
tion in public and private employment? 

3. How many complaints have you received from Indians in the 
areas of private and public employment? 

4. How many complaints have you received from Indians in the 
other areas under your jurisdiction? 

5. What explanation do you have for the relatively few number 
of complaints from Indians ? 

6. How do you publicize the fact that Indians have the right to 
complain to your Commission ? 

7. Have you or any of your staff members ever personally 
visited Indian reservations or conferred with tribal leaders 
regarding your Commission and the right of Indians to seek 
its assistance regarding such complaints ? 

8. Considering the number of Commission employees, do you 
believe the Commission is able to effectively inform Indians 
and other minorities of their rights under State law? For 
example, do you or any of your staff members make frequent 
trips to Indian reservations for this purpose? 

9. Does the Arizona Civil Rights Commission have authority 
to make periodic surveys into discrimination in any of the 
three areas of its jurisdiction, i.e., voting, public accommoda- 
tions, and employment? If so, has the Commission ever 
made such a survey into employment, and if it has, what 
were the results of that survey? 

10. Have you ever submitted any recommendations on employ- 
ment either to the Governor or the State legislature, other 
than your annual report and statistical breakdown of em- 
ployment by State agencies? 

11. It is our understanding that the Equal Employment Op- 
portunity Commission has indicated that the Arizona Civil 
Rights Commission must obtain greater enforcement powers 
in the field of employment, or it will not continue to refer 
employment complaints to it for action prior to taking action 
itself. If so, do you intend to seek stronger legislation for the 
Civil Rights Commission in 1973? 

12. How many additional employees will be needed to effectively 
perform your operations if you are given the new enforce- 
ment powers as proposed by the Attorney General ? 

13. How many Indians do you presently have on your staff and 
what are their functions? 

14. Do you need additional Indian employees to effectively serv- 
ice both on reservation and urban Indians? 


Answers From Mr. J. Ford Smith, Executive Director, 
Arizona Civil Rights Commission 

1. The Arizona Civil Rights Commission has three functions of 
operation in the areas of voting, public accommodation, and 
employment. The Commission has the power to waive juris- 
diction in such cases where the Commission determines that 
compliance cannot be obtained under the provisions. The 
Commission has the power to hold public hearings and to 
subpoena witnesses only at the time of public hearings. 

2. Arizona Statutes 41-1461 and 41-1462 and under 41-1462, 
paragraph 1 through 6. 41-1464: this statute grants pre- 
ferential treatment to employers who locate their business 
on or near an Indian reservation. 

3. Since the inception of the Commission we have received a 
total of 17 complaints in the area of employment. 

4. There have only been four complaints filed in the area of 
public accommodation. 

5. My reply to this is that I simply feel that the American In- 
dians feel that the Arizona Civil Rights Commission cannot 
grant the necessary actions or relief in matters of this 

6. We recently, through the television media, ran 30 segments 
of one minute shots indicating that anyone could file with 
the Arizona Civil Rights Commission. Also, this information 
has been relayed to the Indian community through two differ- 
ent project directors of the Indian Affirmative Action Pro- 

7. "Yes." I have personally visited the Gila reservation and two 
of my project directors have visited various Indian res- 

8. My answer to the first part of your question would be "no," 
due to the fact that there are 14 different tribes located 
throughout the State of Arizona. Frequent? I would say no 
because of our limited staff. 

9. The answer to the first part of your question is "yes." How- 
ever, we are restricted again to the limits of our survey. 
Yes, we do have jurisdiction in the three areas you men- 
tioned. Yes, we have made a survey of employment. We have 
an annual report entitled, "Minority Employment in Arizona 
State Agencies." Our current report indicates of 29,587 state 
employees there are only 414 of American Indian ances- 
try. A further breakdown shows that 250 of these employees 
are in the pay grade range of 1 through 10; 146 employees 
are in the range 11 through 19, and 6 are in the range 20 
through 29. The survey indicates there are 8 in the exempt 
category. Grade 1 represents a beginning salary of $323 a 
month and it is graduated upward to grade 10 of $522 a 


month. Grade 11 beginning salary is $557 a month and grade 
19 is $993 a month. Grade 20 beginning salary is $1083 and 
graduated upward to 29, beginning salary $2471 a month. 
The figures I have given you will be printed in the 1972 
Minority Group Employment in Arizona State Agencies that 
should be published by the 31st of December. 

10. The answer to your question would be that in our annual 
report we do make recommendations concerning employ- 
ment to the Governor and the State Legislature. 

11. Mr. Powell, the first part of your question is quite correct. 
The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has in- 
dicated that unless all state agencies implement their legisla- 
tion to conform with Title VII of the Equal Employment 
Opportunity Commission, they will no longer refer to the 
state or city agencies. Mr. Powell, I don't know whether you 
are aware of the fact that the Arizona Civil Rights Com- 
mission is to become a part of the newly developed Depart- 
ment of Law for the State of Arizona, which is headed by 
the Attorney General, Mr. Gary K. Nelson. The effective date 
is July 1, 1973, unless the Governor issues an Executive 
Order, which has been requested by Mr. Nelson for January 
1, 1973, to promote a smoother transition and grant stronger 
legislation for the Arizona Civil Rights Division. 

12. I feel that if we are given these new enforcement powers 
then the least number of persons needed would be four. 
Sounds like a small number? I know, but I do happen to know 
how the Legislature of our State operates. I am saying four 
persons. I feel that we would need an additional field repre- 
sentative, two new persons to handle intake of complaints, 
which would be their sole responsibility, and the fourth indi- 
vidual would be hired to handle contract compliance. 

13. Presently, there is one American Indian on my staff, that is 
Mr. Michael Purley, who was hired through the Presidential 
Employment Emergency Act as a Field Representative I. 
However, as of July 1 of this year, he became a permanent 
employee. Until recently, the Indian Affirmative Action 
Program was headed by Mr. Robert Melvin, an American 
Indian. Mr. Melvin has since resigned and is now employed 
in the Navajo Community College Manpower Program. 

14. Mr. Powell, I think that we have covered this question in 
another question previously asked me. 


Questions to and answers from Mr. Clinton Pattea, Execu- 
tive Secretary, Arizona Commission of Indian Affairs, 
Pheonix, Arizona. 

(1) Q. Please describe the Arizona Commission of Indian Af- 
fairs, its purpose, powers, and responsibilities? 
A. The Commission's purpose is to serve as a communication 
link between State, Federal and tribal governments. Its 
powers are to survey and study the needs and desires 
of tribal governments, and relay those needs to State 
and Federal agencies. The Commission has responsibility 
over all aspects of Indian affairs and is obligated to 
prepare an annual report on the subject. The Commis- 
sion's statute reads as follows: 

A. The commission shall consider and study condi- 
tions among Indians residing within the State. The 
studies shall be made to accumulate, compile and 
assemble information on any phase of Indian affairs. 
For such purposes the commission may hold hearings, 
make investigations, and confer with officials of local, 
state and federal agencies in order to secure coopera- 
tion between the federal, state and local governments 
in the promotion of the welfare of the Indian people. 

B. The commission shall make a written annual 
report, giving an account of its proceedings, trans- 
actions, findings, and recommendations to the gover- 
nor and the legislature, and shall from time to time 
submit such other reports as may be necessary. 

(2) Q. What has the Commission done to promote the employ- 

ment of Indians in both the public and the private 
sectors ? 
A. We work closely with the State Employment Service in 
this regard. We make presentations at civic organization 
meetings regarding Indian employment. We tell them 
about reservation employment problems and how they 
can be resolved. 

(3) Q. Have you had any conferences with State and private 

employers regarding employment opportunities for In- 
A. We have met with the Highway Department as well as 
with representatives of the banking industry. Bankers 
in the area are trying to initiate work shops for career 
development with Indian schools. 

(4) Q. Have you made any studies regarding the employment 


problem of Indians ? If so, what action, if any, was taken 
on these studies ? 
A. We have made some surveys and have found a lot of 
unemployment on the reservations. Tribes desire more 
economic development. Both the BIA and EDA have 
responsibility in this regard. 

(5) Q. In conducting these investigations, has your agency found 

any evidence of employment discrimination? 
A. We sometimes get complaints from individuals. We refer 
them to the EEOC and the State Civil Rights Commis- 

(6) Q. Has the State Civil Rights Commission been effective in 

responding to those complaints? 
A. Apparently they haven't had the authority to issue orders 
or enforce the law. But now that the Commission will be 
placed under the direct authority of the State Attorney 
General's Office it may become more effective in the 

(7) Q. Has your office ever conducted a survey of the employ- 

ment practices of any State agencies? 
A. No. The State Employment Service releases those sta- 
tistics from time to time, though. 

(8) Q. Has your office ever received complaints about the hiring 

practices of the State Highway Department? 
A. Yes. We have discussed the inadequate number of Indian 
employees with the Highway Department. We just re- 
cently did this, so there are no results as yet. 

(9) Q. Can tribal governments require a given number of Indian 

employees on on-reservation highway construction proj- 
ects before granting a right-of-way to the State? 
A. Yes. But unions present a problem in this regard. Private 
contractors cannot find large numbers of Indian union 

(10) Q. But isn't Arizona a right-to-work State? 
A. I don't know about that. 

(11) Q. Does the Commission need additional authority in order 

to promote Indian employment opportunity in Arizona. 
A. Yes. Last year we asked the State Legislature to amend 
our statute to authorize us to initiate programs for tribes 
instead of simply survey and study. This bill passed the 
Senate but died in the House. It will be introduced again 
next year. 

(12) Q. In your experience, what has been the attitude of the 

State Legislature toward Arizona Indians? 
A. Arizona tribes want to retain their tribal sovereignty 
and work with State agencies on an equal basis. Re- 


cently, the State attempted to assert a leasehold tax on 
reservation land. This contradicts the separate legal 
status of tribes. This year tribal representatives have sat 
down with State representatives for the first time to 
settle questions regarding tribal status. 
(13) Q. In your opinion, what should the State's responsibility be, 
regarding Arizona reservation Indians? Arizona urban 
A. State legislators feel no direct responsibility for the needs 
of reservation Indians. They consider that to be a Federal 
responsibility. This conflicts with the recent attempt of 
the State to impose a leasehold tax on reservations. 
Urban Indians have always been entitled to the same 
services as other State citizens. 


Questions to and Answers from Mr. Albert N. Brown, Exec- 
utive Director, Arizona State Justice Planning Agency 

(1) Q. What are the functions of the Arizona State Justice 

Planning Agency? 
A. See copies of Governor Williams' Executive Order 68-3, 
and copies of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe 
Streets Act of 1968 as amended by Omnibus Crime Con- 
trol Act of 1970; and the Juvenile Delinquency Preven- 
tion and Control Act of 1968 as amended by the Juvenile 
Delinquency Prevention Act of 1972. 
(The Executive Order referred to establishes in the 
Executive Office the Arizona State Justice Planning 
Agency to implement the above mentioned Acts. That 
Order states that ASJPA's Governing Board shall : 

maintain general oversight, review, evaluation and 
approval of the law enforcement improvement activ- 
ities of the Executive Director and staff, including 
development and revision of the state law enforce- 
ment and juvenile delinquency prevention and con- 
trol plans, establishment of priorities for law en- 
forcement improvement in the state, correlation 
with units of local government and law enforcement, 
and implementation of sub-grants or allocations 
thereto. (Section 2(d)). 

(2) Q. When was the Arizona State Justice Planning Agency 

established, and when did you become its Executive Di- 
rector ? 

A. November 15, 1968 — Agency established. April 14, 
1969 — Became Executive Director. 

(3) Q. Please describe the composition of your Governing Board, 

including any Indian members thereon. 
A. See attached list of members. Note: the composition of 
the Governing Board conforms to LEAA's guidelines (see 
attachment) . 

(The list of members indicates that of the Board's 16 
members one is Indian. He is Howard Gorman, a Navajo 
Tribal Council member. Other members include State 
legislators, mayors, police chiefs, judges, and directors 
of correctional institutions.) 

(4) Q. Please describe the types of grants processed through 

your agency, giving particular emphasis on grants to 
Indian tribes. 
A. See attached lists of grants. 

(The list referred to indicates that since its inception 
ASJPA has handled nearly $8 million in grant funds, 
in the form of over 400 individual grants. The grants 


serve a wide variety of purposes, including such things 
as inner-city youth programs, crime lab improvement, 
communication improvement, counseling, various studies, 
intelligence systems, police training, etc. This list re- 
flects grants made during the period from November 
15, 1968, to September 1, 1971. During this period, 
out of a total of $7,850,769 in grants, Indian tribes re- 
ceived 16 grants totaling $420,969. These grants were 
for the following purposes: police training, law and 
order code revision, delinquency prevention and control 
training, basic recruit training, police legal advisor, 
prosecution improvement, detention facility, prosecutor 
training program, additional officer, radio system, delin- 
quency prevention program. It should be noted that 
except for $12,725 granted to the Hualapai Tribe out of 
the State's block grant, all of these grants were from 
discretionary funds. During an interview Mr. Brown 
stated, "Most of the Indian money is discretionary. We 
help them write up proposals for discretionary money; 
we endorse the proposals and administer the grants. 
With regard to block grants tribes are deemed units of 
local government. They, therefore, get block grant money 
on a dollar-for-dollar basis, depending on population 
size." Discretionary funds on a nationwide basis amount 
to 15 percent of the total LEAA funds. Currently, about 
$3 million of this is earmarked for Indian projects on a 
nationwide basis.) 

(5) Q. What input do Indians have regarding your Board's 

planning procedures and ultimate determinations as to 
which Indian programs will receive its endorsement? 
A. ASJPA employs a full-time professional Indian Justice 
Planner. He assists the various tribes in determining 
their priorities (Indians' right of self-determination) and 
preparing planning input for the annual comprehensive 
plan. This flows through the task forces of the Govern- 
ing Board, each of which has Indian representation 
thereon, to the Governing Board which also has Indian 
representation thereon. Their input originates with the 
Indian tribes based on their priorities, wants and needs 
for improvements of the criminal justice system. A por- 
tion of Arizona's block grant from LEAA, based on 
population, is allocated for Indian projects. 

(6) Q. What roles do your task forces play in providing specific 

information on Indian proposals to your Board? 
A. The task forces are organized on a discipline basis to 
review input and project applications. They see that the 
planning input takes a comprehensive approach towards 


improving the criminal justice system, and that project 
applications fit into the programs established by the 
annual Comprehensive State Criminal Justice Plan. In- 
dians are represented on each task force. Indian planning 
input is considered in the above manner. Indian project 
applications are initiated by the tribes that exercise the 
right of self-determination within the Safe Streets Act 
and LEAA's Guidelines. The funding of Indian projects 
is accomplished by determining priorities amongst all 
Indian projects. These are funded from the aforemen- 
tioned allocation of block grant monies for Indian proj- 
ects. In addition to funding Indian projects from block 
grant monies, ASJPA, working through the Indian Plan- 
ning Specialist, aggressively seeks discretionary funding 
for Indian projects. Here, the competition for funds is 
amongst Indian tribes on a nationwide basis. 

(7) Q. Describe briefly the purpose and accomplishments of the 

program of the National Indian Justice Planning Project. 
A. See attachment #7. 

(Attachment #7, Indian Justice Planning Project Re- 
port 1971, states in its Preface as follows: "The Indian 
Justice Planning Project came into being through the 
efforts of the state planning agency directors of Arizona, 
Colorado, New Mexico and Utah who, in developing their 
own comprehensive statewide plans for law enforcement, 
quickly realized that the problems, needs and priorities 
which exist on Indian reservations within their respec- 
tive states did not necessarily prevail throughout the 
remainder of the state. 

"As the criminal justice problems concerning the 46 
geographic Indian reservations in those four states are 
unique and varied, not only from the surrounding non- 
Indian communities but from reservation to reservation, 
the four southwestern states joined together in this 
pioneering effort to plan with tribal leaders for the im- 
provement of law enforcement on each of the reserva- 

(8) Q. Please describe some of the problems of coordination that 

arise between related Federal-State programs. In your 
opinion, what can be done to eliminate or minimize such 
problems ? 
A. To achieve coordination of Federal-State programs, Ari- 
zona, through the Governor's Executive Order, estab- 
lished six standard planning regions per OMB Cir- 
cular A-95. These six regions were organized as councils 
of government that serve as regional clearinghouses and 
have a knowledge of all Federal-State programs in the 


region. In addition, the Governor's Office has established 
a committee for Federal-State relations, the membership 
of which represents agencies that receive 98% of all 
Federal funds received by Arizona. This is another ex- 
cellent coordinating device for Federal-State programs. 
(9) Q. The Commission heard testimony at its Phoenix hearing 
in November from representatives of the Southwest In- 
dian Youth Center that the State of Arizona considers 
Indians a Federal responsibility and that State officials, 
therefore, are hesitant to aid in the funding of Indian 
programs; on the other hand, because of the Federal 
Government's emphasis on regionalization, Indians seek- 
ing such programs often are told by Federal officials to 
seek funds through State or local channels. Please com- 
ment on this. 
A. This question sets a premise in very nonspecific terms. 
Due to lack of specificity, no comment can be addressed 
to the premise. 

The LEAA program considers the Indian reservations as 
units of general local government, and as such they re- 
ceive the same treatment by ASJPA as any other unit of 
general local government (with the exception that we 
employ an Indian Planning Specialist). Nonreservation 
Indians share equally with all other residents of Arizona 
in the benefits that come from the LEAA program. (In 
addition, Mr. Brown stated that this complaint had no 
merit with regard to his agency and he was aware of no 
other State planning agency to which it applied.) 


Questions to and Answers from Mr. Hawley Atkinson, 
Special Assistant to the Governor of the State of Arizona 
on the Four Corners Regional Commission 

1. QUESTION: Please describe the Four Corners Regional 
Commission, particularly those programs involving or affecting 

ANSWER: The Four Corners Regional Commission is a Title 
V Commission authorized by the Public Works and Economic 
Development Act of 1965, as amended. The purpose of this Act 
is to stimulate economic development in regions of the country 
that are lagging behind the national average. 

Two agencies were authorized to accomplish the objectives of 
the Act: Title V Commissions and the Economic Development 

Through these agencies, federal funds, additional to those 
available through ongoing programs, were to be made available 
to States, or political subdivisions thereof, Indian Tribes, or 
private or public nonprofit organizations located within the 
designated regions. 

In terms of the FCRC, the bulk of additional federal funds are 
in the form of a supplement to grants extended by basic federal 
grant agencies such as Housing and Urban Development, Farm- 
ers Home Administration, etc. For our purposes, a basic grant 
agency is any federal agency that administers a federal grant- 
in-aid program that was enacted prior to December 31, 1969. The 
Economic Development Administration was designated a basic 
grant agency, rather than supplemental, such as is the case for 
the Title V Commissions. Hence, a basic grant by EDA can be 
supplemented by a grant from the Four Corners Regional Com- 
mission. The Bureau of Indian Affairs, however, is not a basic 
grant agency. Hence, their programs are not eligible for supple- 
mental funding from the Four Corners Regional Commission. 

In addition to the supplemental grant program, the FCRC 
also was authorized to establish a technical assistance program. 

With respect to Indian Tribes, both grant programs are avail- 
able so long as the applicant Tribe is located within the estab- 
lished boundaries of the Four Corners Region. 

It is important to note that with respect to either supple- 
mental grants or technical assistance, the availability of funds, 
as well as the eligibility requirements, are equal for Indians and 

Hence, the Four Corners programs for Indians is precisely 
identical to programs for non-Indians and both are pursued to 
the maximum extent allowed by law. 

There some built-in limitations, however, that restrict the ex- 


tention of Four Corners Regional Commission activities to certain 
communities — both Indian and non-Indian. 

First, for all practical purposes, the Four Corners Regional 
Commission does not have first-funding authority. That is, the 
Four Corners Regional Commission can only participate in a 
project that has received a grant from a basic federal grant 
agency. To the extent that a community or Tribe is unable to 
secure a basic grant, Four Corners Regional Commission partici- 
pation is eliminated also. It must be noted, however, that it is our 
policy to extend every effort to aid the Indian Tribe in its search 
for the basic grant. 

Secondly, with the exception of some EDA programs, the total 
federal contribution to a project is limited to 80%. Hence, the 
community or tribe must finance the remaining 20%. Depending 
upon local resources and the size of the project, the project idea 
must sometimes be abandoned for a lack of the required 20%. 

A third limitation is that only those communities located with- 
in the boundaries of the Four Corners are eligible for grant 
assistance. This eliminates any supplemental grants from the 
Four Corners to the Colorado River Indian Reservation, Salt 
River Indian Reservation, Fort McDowell Indian Reservation, 
San Xavier Indian Reservation Maricopa Indian Reservation, 
Gila Bend Indian Reservation, part of the Gila River Reservation, 
and most of the Papago Indian Reservation. 

A final limitation on the flow of Four Corners Regional Com- 
mission money to Indian Reservations is that EDA can often 
fund 100% of project costs. 

2. QUESTION: What conferences or consultations have you had 
with tribal leaders regarding the proposals and programs of the 
Four Corners Regional Commission which might relate to them 
either directly or indirectly? 

ANSWER: In my four years on Governor Williams' staff, my 
conferences and consultations with the Tribal leaders have been 
a continuing process. 

A primary source for the dissemination of information as re- 
gards the Commission has been the Indian Development District 
of Arizona. The Indian Development District of Arizona is an 
Economic Development District funded by the Economic De- 
velopment Administration, excepting the Central Office which is 
only partially funded by EDA. The five planning areas of IDDA 
are funded by EDA on a 75% — 25% matching basis. Each 
planning area has a director and a planner. I have worked with 
each of these five planning areas and made available to each not 
only the services of the Four Corners Regional Commission but 
the services of the Governor's Office. (I have been a non-Indian 
member of the IDDA Northwest Planning Area for four years.) 


The Central Office of IDDA is run by a Board of Directors whose 
membership consists of one representative from each of the 17 
member Tribes. I attended a majority of the Board of Directors 
meetings over the past four years. My attendance at these 
meetings have been less the last two years — due to our deference 
to Tribal leaders' policy of self determination. My attendance has 
become more formalized either upon request of the IDDA Exec- 
utive Director to attend for specific purpose or at my request for 
the same reason. My relationship and communication with the 
Executive Director and the IDDA staff has been constant and 
continuous. Governor Williams has made the services of his office 
available to the Executive Director and the Executive has made 
full use of these services. 

For example, in the last few weeks the IDDA Prisoner Parole 
Rehabilitation Program ran into obstacles. IDDA contacted me 
and asked for assistance in opening up lines of communication 
with the Arizona Justice Planning Agency and the Arizona De- 
partment of Corrections. Both State agencies were agreeable to 
discuss the problems. Subsequently, meetings were held and the 
problem reconciled. This has been a reoccurring pattern of the 
relationship between the Tribal leadership and the Governor's 
Office. Most State agencies are not subject to control by the 
Governor — the power of the Governor is principally that of 
persuasion. Where there has been a desire of Tribal leadership 
to establish lines of communication with State agencies or solve 
specific problems, the Governor's office has arranged the initial 
meetings between the agency and the Tribal leadership, IDDA, 
Inter-Tribal Council, etc. After the initial meetings the State 
agencies and the Indian leadership have maintained their avenues 
of communication and continued to work with each other. Arizona 
is fortunate in having Indian leadership that recognizes many of 
the Indian problems extending beyond Reservation boundaries 
and acting for further integration of the Indian and non-Indian 

A new link in the communications chain between the Gover- 
nor's office and the Indian leadership has just been established. 
The Governor's Advisory Council on Intergovernmental Relations 
(ACIR) has been expanded to include the President of Arizona 
Inter-Tribal Council. This new position on the ACIR will have a 
vertical effect on increased communications between the Indian 
and non-Indian communities. It also involves the private sector of 
Arizona. The purposes of ACIR are: 

1. Develop long-range policies to assist the State and local 
agencies in meeting their common or individual problems. 

2. Provide direction to the State and local planning agencies. 

3. Inform and advise the Governor and Legislature respecting 


the Council's activities and recommend policies and programs 
for meeting selected problems. 

4. Review the allocation of governmental services and resources 
between the State and local governments. 

5. Develop methods of communication and cooperation among 
the various governmental agencies. 

6. Serve as a sounding board for new ideas and recommend 
practical innovations. 

Hence, with the appointment of the President of the Arizona 
Inter-Tribal Council, the Indian Tribes are officially represented 
in the deliberations of this body. 

Another important line of communication instituted by Gov- 
ernor Williams was the establishment of Arizona Indian Centers, 
Inc. This organization is funded by the Four Corners Regional 
Commission to determine the need and location of Urban Indian 
Centers and to write a standard operating procedure for these 
centers, and upon determination of need and location, to help the 
designated communities to establish an Urban Indian Center. The 
Board of Directors of Arizona Indian Centers, Inc., is composed of 
five Indians and four non-Indians. The professional staff is Indian. 
The organization has been funded for three years. 

Governor Williams is an exofficio member of the Arizona Com- 
mission on Indian Affairs. He appoints the members of the 
Commission which by law are five Indian members and two non- 
Indian members. This Commission is an effective link in the 
avenues of communication between the Governor and Tribal 
leadership. It is also an important link between State agencies 
and Tribal leadership. I am the Governor's representative to the 
Commission and regularly attend the meetings. 

The Arizona Department of Economic Planning and Develop- 
ment, an arm of the Governor's Office, has recently established 
an Indian Desk to assist in economic growth on Indian Re- 

3. QUESTION: What percentage of Arizona land is tribal land? 
ANSWER : The Indian Reservations are 27% of the land owner- 
ship of Arizona. The following is a detailed breakdown: 


% of Total 

Federally Owned Lands 



Indian Reservations 



(Federal Trust Lands) 

State Owned Land 



Privately Owned Land 



TOTAL 72,680,320 100.00% 

4. QUESTION: We recognize that this tribal land is not tax- 
generating for either State or local governments ; therefore, what 


bearing does this have on State and local programs available to 
reservation Indians? 

ANSWER : Tribal land in itself is not tax-generating for either 
State or local governments; the people who live on Tribal lands 
are tax-generating and are so considered. 

The Governor's Office and the Four Corners Regional Com- 
mission response to requests from the Tribal leadership is in no 
way affected by the tax status of the Indian Reservations. The 
State of Arizona is striving for the integration and cooperation 
of the Indian and non-Indian communities to solve the problems 
common to both communities. The Governor's Office serves all 
citizens on an equal basis and tax generation is no criteria for 

There are many State agencies and it may be that because of 
Federal law or State law that the tax status of the Indian Reserva- 
tion does affect services. I cannot recall any instance where any 
Indian Reservation has asked for the assistance of the Governor's 
Office in the resolving of a problem, that it said assistance has 
not been rendered. This is not to say that the solution has always 
been favorable. 

5. QUESTION: What assistance, technical or otherwise, has 
your office provided to Indian tribes? 

ANSWER: In 1967, Governor Williams directed the Four 
Corners Regional Commission to assist the Arizona Indian Tribes 
in their economic development — to work with the reservations in 
the Four Corners Region of Arizona — to establish the type of eco- 
nomic growth which the Indian leadership, itself, wanted. Not an 
economic growth that was based on what the non-Indian felt 
should be on the reservation but economic growth that was 
desired by the Indian people themselves. This program was im- 
mediately put into effect. 

In FY 1968, the following two construction projects were 

1.) Construction of a water line on the Hualapai Indian Re- 
servation to permit expansion of the Tribe's cattle herd by 700 
head. The Commission contributed $12,600; the Tribe, $8,400; 
and the Agricultural Stabilization Conservation Service of the 
United States Department of Agriculture, $21,000. Total cost of 
the project was $42,000. 

2.) Rehabilitation of the irrigation system in the Supai Canyon 
of the Havasupai Indian Reservation. The Commission contributed 
$4,500 ; the Tribe, $3,000 ; and the Agricultural Stabilization Con- 
servation Service of the United States Department of Agricul- 
ture $7,500. Total cost of the project was $15,000. 

3.) Further, in 1968, a $72,000 technical assistance grant was 


made to establish a central office of the Indian Development 
District of Arizona. 

The Indian Development District of Arizona, commonly known 
as IDDA, was established in 1967 at the instigation of Governor 
Williams. Governor Williams directed his Staff Administrator, 
Stan Womer, to make the necessary arrangements, necessary 
coordinations, to establish an economic development district soley 
for the Indian people in the State of Arizona. The first steps in 
this were taken in cooperation with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, 
Industrial Development Department. Funds were obtained from 
EDA to create an Indian Economic Development District com- 
prised of five planning areas. This included all of the Tribes in 
Arizona excepting the Navajo and did include one California 
Tribe, the Quechans. The primary charge of the director of each 
planning area was to assist the reservations in its planning 
area to achieve the economic development which its leadership 
desired. Each of the Tribes had varying ideas on what type of 
economic development they wanted created on their reservation 
and the employees of IDDA were strictly instructed to adhere to 
the wishes of the Tribal leaders. 

When Governor Williams, with the cooperation and assistance 
of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Economic Development 
Administration, interested these 17 Tribes in establishing an 
economic development district; it was unique. For many of the 
Tribes it was the first cooperative effort between the various 
Tribes in Arizona to acheive any common goals. IDDA is truly a 
unique organization and there is none like it in the rest of the 
United States. Since IDDA has been established, there has been 
a commonality of interest established amongst the Tribes that 
never existed before. There has been a cooperation and a 
coordination of their efforts that never existed before. And 
there have been unselfish acts upon the part of the larger Tribes 
to assist those Tribes which are not so fortunate in location of 
their reservation lands and their natural assests. 

The Indian Development District of Arizona has been re- 
sponsible for over $14 million being spent in the furtherance of 
economic development on Indian reservations. In FY 1972 the 
expenditures themselves were over $5 million. So from this con- 
cerned Governor who dreamed of an Indian people having their 
own economic development district has come a flow of over $14 
million to achieve this ambition. The Four Corners Regional 
Commission has never had the financial capability or capacity of 
assisting the Indian Reservations with the same type of vast 
funding that EDA has. But every effort has been made to use 
these funds on selective basis that would assist the Indians in 
special projects which were badly needed by them. 


4.) In FY 1969, Governor Williams again requested and re- 
ceived $72,000 from the Four Corners Regional Commission for 
the Central Office of IDDA. Without this $72,000 grant the 
Central Office would not be in existence to supply and supple- 
ment the vital work that was not taking place in the planning 

5.) Further, in FY 1969, a supplemental grant for construction 
purposes was made to the Navajo Tribe for the Chinle Nursing 
Home. The Four Corners Regional Commission funds for a total 
$105,000 ; HEW funds $459,313 ; State and local funds $639,000. 
The total cost of the project was $1,203,313. 

6.) FY 1970 again saw the Four Corners Regional Commis- 
sion take an active part in the development of the Indian Res- 
ervations in Arizona. Under the direction of Governor Jack 
Williams, the Navajo Tribe received for its Navajo Tours, $18,711. 

7.) The Indian Development District of Arizona, IDDA, again 
received a large Four Corners technical assistance grant. This 
year the grant was $47,500 to assist the Central Office. 

8.) Further, in FY 1970, a modern mobile library bookmobile 
was put into operation on the Navajo Reservation. This mobile 
library bookmobile was funded by the State of Arizona for 
$25,000 and by the Four Corners Regional Commission for 
$25,000. This socio-economic technical assistance project was 
highly received by the Navajo Tribe and has been enthusiastically 
requested since. 

9.) Another project that indirectly concerns the Navajo Tribe 
and the White Mountain Apache Tribe was the Pine Stump proc- 
essing project funded in the amount of $44,000 in FY 1970 and 
in the amount of $10,000 in FY 1971. This project is to recover 
turpentine in Naval Stores from the pine stumps that have been 
left in the ground throughout Northern Arizona and New Mex- 
ico. It is to be hoped that an industrial plant to recover these 
products will be established in Northern Arizona in the very 
near future and will be a large employer of Indian people. 

By the end of 1970, it was obvious that progress was being 
made on the Indian Reservations. There was still a long way to go 
but the progress was there. It was also evident to Governor 
Williams that there was another segment of the Indian popula- 
tion that had been forgotten. Those Indians, who for reasons of 
their own, had left the reservation and were endeavoring to make 
their way in an non-Indian world — the urban Indians of Arizona. 
In 1970, Governor Williams directed his staff to contact urban 
Indian leadership and concerned non-Indians to endeavor to come 
up with a plan to establish a system by where the Four Corners 
Regional Commission could assist urban Indians of Arizona. 


Particularly those Indians in the Four Corners Regional Commis- 
sion Region. This was the beginning of the birth of the Arizona 
Indian Centers, Inc., a group of Indians and non-Indians who are 
dedicated to the concept of assisting the urban Indian to create a 
better social and economic life for himself. There was only one 
request that the Governor made to this group of dedicated men 
beyond that of accomplishing their mission and that was the 
leadership must remain in the hands of the Indian people to 
achieve the goal which was so eagerly sought by himself and by 
the board of directors of the Arizona Indian Centers, Inc. 

10.) Arizona Indian Centers was funded for $35,000 in FY 1971 
and it was a most worthwhile investment. For those who really 
like to delve into the details of what the Arizona Indian Centers, 
Inc., has accomplished, there are many written records to sub- 
stantiate the remarkable success of this organization. 

Further, in FY 1971, the Gila River Career Center which is 
located at Sacaton, Arizona, and primarily serves the Indian 
people of Pinal County, was established. It has been doing an 
excellent job in career. 

11.) To assist the Career Center in the evaluation of their work, 
an $18,356 grant was given to the Arizona State Employment 
for an Occupational Demand Study in Central Arizona. Further, 
in relationship to not only the Gila River Career Center but to 
other career centers, a grant for $29,000 was made to the 
Vocational Education Department of Arizona to assist in the 
evaluation of locations and need of other career centers through- 
out Arizona particularly as related to the Indian Reservations. 
Field individuals hired under this grant also directly assisted the 
Gila River Career Center. 

12.) In FY 1971, further supplemental grants were made to 
Indian Tribes of Arizona. To the White Mountain Apache Tribe 
for the construction of what is called the White River Bridge 
which is vital to the operation of the Fort Apache Timber 
Company. A Four Corners Regional Commission grant was made 
in the amount of $100,000; the basic grant from EDA was in 
the amount of $260,800 ; the State and local portion was $90,200. 
For a total cost of $451,000. 

13.) A grant was made to the Navajo Tribe for a new construc- 
tion of the Navajo Rehabilitation Center in the amount of 
$120,000; the basic grant was $100,000; State and local funds 
$130,000; for a total cost of $350,000. (You will remember that 
in FY 1969, Governor Williams had the Commission grant the 
Navajo Tribe $105,000 for the Chinle Nursing Home. The Chinle 
Nursing Home and the Navajo Rehabilitation Center are coordi- 
nated projects both located in Chinle, Arizona, on the Navajo 


Before we list Arizona's FY 1972 Four Corners Regional Com- 
mission projects which Governor Williams requested for the 
Arizona Indian people, it would be appropriate to mention that at 
the instigation of Governor Williams and other Governors of 
the Four Corners Regional Commission, other monies have been 
spent in support of the Indian people in the Four Corners Region. 
One of the most important expenditures of funds was in the 
amount of $50,000 to the Navajo Tribe in relationship to the 
Navajo Farm Training and Crop Production. The Navajo Tribe 
has a large irrigation project which has been taking place over the 
last few years and will be progressing through at least four 
more years. This project will enable the Navajo Tribe to en- 
large its irrigated land by over 100,000 acres which would pro- 
vide untold employment opportunities to the Navajo people. It 
will also create a center of wealth in the Four Corners Regional 
Commission area. 

In FY 1972 Governor Williams funded through the Four 
Corners Regional Commission the following Indian projects: 

14.) $11,000 to Indian Development District of Arizona for the 
operation of its Central Office. (Also Governor Williams directed 
that the Four Corners Regional Commission request three em- 
ployees from the Emergency Employment Act which would be 
for the Four Corners Regional Commission Office and then would 
be assigned to IDDA ; this has been done.) 

15.) A Technical Assistance Grant to the Navajo Tribe of 
$77,000 for ambulance service on the Navajo Reservation. This 
is the part of the emergency medical services which is taking 
place throughout Northern Arizona. 

16.) The Hopi Tribe received $46,880 for irrigation and range 
management projects on the Hopi Reservation. 

17.) The Navajo Tribe requested funding for the Western Ap- 
prenticeship Council to establish an apprenticeship program re- 
lated to the Navajo Generating Plant at Page. Governor Wil- 
liams requested and received from the Four Corners Regional 
Commission a $27,500 technical assistance grant to assist the 
Indian people to take advantage of the employment opportuntities 
created by the generating plant, the coal mining and the trans- 
portation of the coal to the Page plant. 

In FY 1973 the following Indian projects have been recom- 
mended by Governor Williams to the Four Corners Regional 

18.) Arizona Indian Centers— $35,000— FY 73 is the third year 
this organization received Four Corners Regional Commission 
funding. The purpose of the Centers is to help ease the transition 


of those Indians who translocate from a rural reservation to an 
urban way-of-lif e. 

19.) Gila River Career Center — $19,104 — The purpose of this 
grant was to lease data-entry equipment for the Career Center 
whose objective is to train Indians in the Sacaton area for stable 
employment opportunities within the data processing field. 

20.) Gila River Indian Community — $14,135 — This grant was 
to provide funds for a management trainee program. The recipi- 
ent of this training would assume general management of the 
51% Indian owned FM4 Corporation which employs many of the 
graduates of the Gila River Career Center. 

21.) Indian Development District of Arizona (IDDA) — $25,- 
000 — The grant provided in FY 73 was the sixth year the Four 
Corners Regional Commission has funded IDDA. 

22.) Kitsillie — $25,000 — This grant was for the purpose of con- 
verting surplus trailers into permanent classrooms at Kitsillie 
on the Navajo Reservation. 

23.) Fort Mohave Indian Reservation — $30,000 — This grant 
will provide an irrigation engineering study required by the 
Bureau of Reclamation as a requisite for a loan up to $5,000,000 
that will bring 10,000 acres under cultivation. 

24.) Kaibab-Paiute Indian Tribe — $25,000— This grant is to de- 
termine the quantity and quality of water resources in a known 
water field. The knowledge gained by this study will permit the 
Tribe to formulate specific designs for its economic development 

It is my opinion that the attitude and response of the Gov- 
ernor's Office to the requests of the Tribal leadership is as im- 
portant as any project we have initiated in support of the Indian 
Reservation and Tribal leadership. There is no monetary value 
which can be placed on the harmonious working relationship that 
have been established between the State agencies and the Tribal 

6. QUESTION: Commission staff members have been told that 
Arizona Indians are not adequately represented on the planning 
bodies that are responsible for the distribution of Federal pro- 
gram funds throughout the State. Would you please comment 
on this ? 

ANSWER: Your question is not clear to me. We have made 
an effort to place Indians on Advisory Councils. There has been 
an Indian on the Governor's Advisory Council for the Aging for 
many years. At this time there is a vacancy on this advisory 
council awaiting the recommendation of the Navajo Tribal Chair- 
man, Peter MacDonald, of a person to fill the vacancy. 


There has been little or no request by the Indian Tribal leader- 
ship to appoint Indians to Commissions. To the best of my 
memory, I do not remember a request to appoint an Indian mem- 
ber to a Commission or an Advisory Council, excepting the 
Arizona Commission on Indian Affairs. 



commission m mi sights 


Notice of Hearing 

Notice is hereby given, pursuant to the 
provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1957, 
71 Stat. 634, as amended, that a public 
hearing of the U.S. Commission on Civil 
Rights will commence on November 14, 
1972, and that executive sessions, if ap- 
propriate, will be convened on Novem- 
ber 14, 1972, to be held at the Albuquer- 
que Convention Center, 401 Second Street 
NW., Albuquerque, NM; and on Novem- 
ber 17, 1972, at the Phoenix Indian High 
School, 45 East Midway, Phoenix, AZ. The 
purpose of this hearing is to collect in- 
formation concerning legal developments 
constituting a denial of equal protection 
of the laws under the Constitution be- 
cause of race, color, religion, or national 
origin regarding the living conditions, 
the educational opportunities, the em- 
ployment opportunities, the opportuni- 
ties for adequate health services, the 
administration of justice, and the pro- 
tection and preservation of water re- 
sources as they affect American Indians 
residing in the States of Arizona and 
New Mexico; to appraise the laws and 
policies of the Federal Government with 
respect to denials of equal protection of 
the lav/s under the Constitution because 
of race, color, religion, or national origin 
as they affect the educational opportuni- 
ties, the employment opportunities, the 
health care opportunities, the adminis- 
tration of justice, and the protection and 
preservation of water resources as it 
affects American Indians in the above 
8,reas, and to disseminate information 
with respect to denials of equal protec- 
tion of the laws because of race, color, 
religion, or national origin in the fields 
of employment, education, health care, 
the administration of justice, and the 
preservation and protection of tribal 
water rights and related areas. 

Dated at Washington, D.C., October 6, 

Theodore M. Hesbtjrgk, 

[FT4 Coc.72-1743tt Filed 10-12-72;8:45 am] 
FEDERAL RHGISTi-a, VOL 37, NO. 199 — FRIDAY, OCTOBER 13, 1972 



* Entered into the record during Executive Session, 





In 1970/ the Phoenix Indian Center, realizing the need 
for a larger agency to deal with the many problems of the 
Phoenix Urban Indians, submitted to the United Fund a pro- 
posal for a demonstration project. Prior to this proposal 
the Indian Center had been operating on a budget in the 
neighborhood of $8,000. 

The Indian Center, was able then, to obtain a $100,000 
grant from the Indian Desk of the Office of Economic Oppor- 
tunity. This money was funneled through the LEAP (Leadership 
Education for the Advancement of Phoenix) Organization, who 
administer the funds. The Community Council, in their efforts 
to assist the Indian community brought together Indians re- 
presenting different Indian organizations, who formed the 
Urban Indian Project. 

The basic purpose of the project was to provide informa- 
tion for the non- Indian community about problems and needs of 
the Urban Indian and make recommendations to the appropriate 
agencies, both voluntary and governmental, as to the ways and 
means to meet these needs. 

It soon became obvious that although, the need was known 
in this area, there was no comprehensive study or plan for the 
Phoenix area. 

This led to the appointment of the Ad Hoc Committee, to 
determine how a- comprehensive plan could be accomplished, to 
devaiop a proposal for a research project; to collect infor- 



EXHIBIT NO. S (Continued) 

mation to assist in the planning of programs for the Urban 
Indian. The committee met several times with representatives 
from the National Indian Training and Research Center. 

In May 1971, the Community Council entered into a contract 
with the National Indian Training and Research Center, to con- 
duct a study; the ultimate focus of which would be an action 
research project proposal. 

In October 1971, Phase I of the study was completed and 
submitted. Phase I contained background information on simi- 
larities on Urban Indian experiences, trends, compared differ- 
ences and highlighted the issues involved in American Indian 

Phase II of the Phoenix Urban Indian Study is now complete. 
Phase II of the study is focused entirely on the Phoenix Urban 
Indian community. The thrust of the study has been aimed at 
determining the major topics and themes, so as to pinpoint the 
issues of importance in Urban Indian life. Phase II was con- 
ducted with the hope of accomplishing this end. 


EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 

A. Staff : Coordinator of Phase II - Sidney Beane 

Director of Internship at Cook Christian 
Training School, Tempo , and also a member 
of the Ad Hoc Committee. 

Researchers ; Gus Greymountain and Wes Martin of the 
National Indian Training and Research 

Volunteer Workers : Liberal Jackson 

Floyd Bringing Good 
Kent Track 
Sam Scott 

B. Data-Gathering 

The primary process employed was interviewing. Dur- 
ing the three months time on Phase II of the study, over 
40 persons were interviewed including numerous organiza- 
tions, agencies, and departments within the city and state 

Emphases was on seeking out varied opinions and feel- 
ings on issues concerning the Indian community. Efforts 
were made to up-date existing statistics if available and 
if not available (which was often the case) , whenever pos- 
sible research was conducted in order to provide some use- 
able knowledge of the subject or area. Time was also spent 
talking to Indian people within the community. 

C. Progress Report 

On January 13, 1972, the Phase II progress report was 

submitted to the Ad Hoc Committee. In attendance were: 

Gregg Goggin - Community Council 

E. Johnson - Phoenix Indian Center 

Liberal Jackson - Volunteer Worker 

Floyd Bringing Good - Volunteer Worker 

Paul Klores - Community Council 

Kent Ware, Sr . - Arizona Indian Centers, Inc. 

Angie Torres - Arizona Civil Rights Commission 

Sid Beane - Cook Christian Training School 

Lem Ignacio - Center of Community Change 

Bill Street - Tri-C Community Council 


EXHIBIT NO. S (Continued) 

The progress report was given in the form of a brief 
presentation on the results of interviews up to that date. 
The Items that were discussed were: 

1. Existing organizations not representative of 
the Indian Community. 

2. There is a controversy revolving about the Phoenix 
Indian Center. This controversy has brought about 
a tenseness in the Phoenix Indian community, es- 
pecially between organizations. However, it was 
also expressed that the center was doing a better 
job than ever before. 

3. Phoenix Indian Center is fulfilling a much needed 
service but there is also a need for a larger 
organization to work with that portion of the 
Indian community, in need of services in other 
areas such as community organization which will 
be strong enough to address itself in issues such 
as discrimination, employment, housing and health. 
The need for a coalition was expressed many times. 

4. There is a need. for a job index, which would pro- 
vide an up-to-date listing of skilled and/or Indian 
professionals in Phoenix. This could be kept in 

an Information Center for which there is also a need. 

5. Communications between organizations are poor. 

6. More youth involvement is needed. 

7. "Grass-roots" people are not aware of or very in- 
volved in the community services. 


EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 


The survey focused primarily on the Phoenix Indian com- 
munity. The survey did not intend to study problem areas in 
depth, but to gather existing data as compiled by various a- 
gencies. In depth research should follow . 

In terms of location, there is no central Indian community, 
only concentration of Indians, the four principal areas being: 

1. Downtown Phoenix - Along Van Buren from 35th Ave. - 
24th St. 

2. Indian School Rd . - 7th Ave. to 16th St. 

3. Scattered families in between the above mentioned areas 

4. The Glendale - Sunnyslope area. 

When reference is made to the n Phoenix Indian community", 
this includes Tempe, Mesa, Scottsdale, Glendale. This study 
has also taken into account the transient population and the 
nearby reservations (Salt River, Gila River, Maricopa) . 

The BIA, Indian Health Service, state government agencies 
as well as city government agencies were among those contacted. 
In the case of the before mentioned emphasis was placed on the 
city government. 

Indian organizations, churches, schools, businesses, and 
community people were interviewed. This in order to obtain 
as wide a spectrum of Indian community life as possible. Pro- 
fessional as well as blue-collar workers, established, middle- 
class Indians as well as the transient, down-on-his-luck type. 

Opinions, experience and recommendations, were asked for 
and obtained, all of this in order to obtain as accurate a 
picture as possible. Many times we could not obtain accurate 



EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 

up-to-date statistics on Indian people. These statistics are 
needed and more in-depth studies, should be made and appropriate 
agencies should be encouraged to gather statistical data on 
the off -reservation Indian population. 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

The need for a coalition of community organizations, with 
maximum involvement and input from the community, for the com- 
munity is of the utmost importance and should have the highest 
priority. Because of the lack of an organized Indian community, 
there is a distinct lack of a sense of community with which the 
Indian people can identify. 

The Indian community because they have no strong voice 
are often passed over and ignored by the city government when 
it plans programs, employment, etc. 

To realize the potential of a united Indian community or- 
ganization, one has only to look at the Mexican-American coa- 
lition (Valle Del Sol) and the Black community. These two 
ethnic groups have made great strides forward, but only after 
organizing . 

The Mexican-American coalition is composed of many differ- 
ent organizations from all elements of the Chicano community. 
Conservative, progressive, social, political, educational, 
youth groups, and when they have their differences, they keep 
them inside the coalition and settle it among themselves. 
There are no phone calls made to the mayor's office, when one 
organization attacks another. An organized community would 
prevent duplication of services by various organizations. A 
blanket organization is needed which would include representatives 
from all the Indian groups in Phoenix, to quote an oft used 
phrase "in unity there is strength". 


EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 


The absence of a definable Indian community with an organi- 
zation to speak for it, creates power lessness to deal with poli- 
tical-social issues. This was amplified in the matter of Urban 
Indian Health which just recently became an issue. The community 
had to go about calling meetings, organizing, electing officers, 
etc. This lengthy process could have been avoided if an organi- 
cation had been in existence to deal with just such issues. 

There are other issues affecting the Phoenix Urban Indian 
community. In areas of employment, education, and discrimina- 
tion. For such political issues, a strong independent organi- 
zation is needed, non-dependent upon city funds or governmental 
funds, free to move, to take action without being manipulated 
by agencies such as LEAP and without fear of having funds cut 

This study also included looking about for monies to fund 
such a coalition and funds are available. The opinion has been 
expressed that it is too soon for a coalition. It is our be- 
lief that it is better to be too soon than to be too late. 
There is a danger that if we wait much longer that some people 
in the community will be "turned off" completely from parti- 
cipation in any type of organization, simply because the ones 
now in existence have done little or nothing. It is almost 
summertime and who will speak for the youth? Who will help 
them to find employment and recreation? Youth involvement is 
but one of the issues affecting the community. Foremost is the 
need' for a strong political-economical power base with which 
to deal with the immediate problems and the source or reason 



EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 
for the existence of such. In the words of an official for 
the city's planning department, the reason for the failure of 
the city to take into consideration the city's Indian popula- 
tion in it's planning is, "Indians haven't been putting any 
organized pressure on the city government." 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 


A. Employment 

The state employment office does not have anyone to 
work directly v/ith Indians. Very few statistics on Indians 
living in metropolitan Phoenix are available. The Phoenix 
Indian Center does have a job bank which plays a tape every 
day on jobs available. It does manage to place some people 
in jobs, how many we do not know. 

The city government of Phoenix, in 197 0-71 employed 
51 American Indians out of a total of 5,413, approximately 
9%. The majority of these workers were operative semi- 
skilled (28). There were no Indians in administrative or 
professional positions. Of the 51 Indians employed by the 
city, 32 of these work for Water and Sewers Department, 
this implies clearly that the city of Phoenix is practic- 
ing institutional racism. To cite a few departments where 
there are no Indians employed; city court*, fire depart- 
ment, human relations**, city manager's personnel***, 
planning, police*, and public housing. 

* There are only 2 Indian policemen now on the police 
force, and at last word, one in the academy. There are 
no Indians working with the courts. The percentage of 
Indians going thorugh the court, and then to jail, is 
high. There are no Indians employed by the Police Depart- 
ment, in their correctional facilities; These facts 
point out only too clearly that something should be done 
by someone and it's pretty obvious that the city is not 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

going to do anything about it unless organized pressure 
is applied. 

** The Human Relations Commission is carrying on a Own- 
Recognizance Program in the city court every day to in- 
cerview prisoners and determine who without funds to 
post bail should be let free on their own recognizance, 
rather than plead guilty and accept a jail term. They 
agreed tc our committee of 5 that they would attempt 
efforts at making a position available in which an Indian 
person would be given priority. These efforts failed 
because Glenwood Wilson, prominent Cherokee, took ill. 
*** The same tactics worked quite well for us with the 
city's EEO Officer in Personnel. Going together as a 
group representing the Phoenix Urban Indian Project and 
the ASU Indian Alumni Association, we confronted the 
Personnel Officer and inquired as to why there wasn't an 
Indian working there when obviously the need was apparent. 
They agreed to hire one. These incidents carried off only 
by four or five persons, are cited only to demonstrate 
that a political power base, is needed to act in behalf 
of the Indian community. One can imagine how many changes 
could be effected by a strong organization with community 


EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 

B. Alcoholism 

The law enforcement agencies of Maricopa County and 
the city of Phoenix, arrest some 7,000 Indians annually 
for charges such as Drunk and Disorderly, Driving While 
Intoxicated, and drinking under age. Statistics of the 
city court's department reveal that 25% of all males 
arrested for liquor related offenses are Indian and 50% 
of the women arrested for the same offenses are Indian. 
(In spite of the high percentage of contact with police, 
the Phoenix Police Department employs only 2 Indian officers.) 
Indian people account for, at the most, 2% of the city's 
population. The Indian is one of the smallest minority 
groups in Phoenix and yet one that has the greatest problem. 
These figures affect each and every Indian in Phoenix, 
directly or indirectly. Therefore, we should concern our- 
selves with the situation, and determine where our efforts 
will be best put to use. 

Of the 7,000 Indians arrested annually, many are 
visiting Indians from outlying reservations, who come to 
the city and are locked up for being drunk at least once 
and possibly many more times, before they leave. 

Some of these Indians, it is known are victims of 
bartenders who are not exercising their responsibility of 
cutting off Indian customers, who have had enough to drink: 
as long as they have the price of a drink they will be 
served. Others are victims of promotion-seeking police 
officers, simply out to bust as many people as they can. 



EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 

These and other factors manifest themselves in the 
situation we have before us, namely, the problem of the 
Indian with the habitual drinking arrest record and the 
city's inability to cope with the situation. 

Presently, in Phoenix, there are several alcoholism 
programs available for Indians to participate in. The 
only one for Indians is at the Phoenix Indian Center, its 
degree of success is not known by the writer. The Phoenix 
Indian Medical Center does not offer anything in the way 
of a detoxication center which is sorely needed at this 
time. PIMC only treats alcoholism when a patient is admitted 
suffering from some other disease or injury, and alcoholism . 
The facilities are just not available at the PIMC. 

The city should explore the feasibility of a detoxi- 
cation treatment center at the compound for those persons 
repeatedly arrested on drunk charges both Indian and non- 
Indian. Such a project should include counseling by Indian 

A meeting was held on January 13, 1972, of various 
agencies and resources in Maricopa County concerned with 
the problem of alcohol abuse and alcoholism, to discuss 
this matter in relation to services (or lack of) provided 
for Indians residing in Phoenix. The needs were discussed 
and it was pointed out that there was a very definite need 
to unite and coordinate efforts in seeking funds and de- 
veloping a successful program treatment of Indian alcoholics.. 

From this group the Phoenix Urban Indian Alcoholism 
Coalition, was formed and a committee was appointed to 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
gather existing data and to invite the participation of 
other groups. The information that was gathered was to 
be used to write a proposal for funding of an Indian 
Halfway House. 

Progress has been slow for the Alcoholism Coalition, 
St. Luke's Hospital and the Indian Health Service have 
been the two most concerned with making the Indian Halfway 
House a reality. As the Indian Center has an Indian alco- 
holism program on-going and does have an outreach worker, 
their input is very much needed, as surely by now they 
have developed some expertise and are concerned. 
C. Education 

The Phoenix Urban Indian seeking education for him- 
self and his life must depend upon the state, county, and 
city public school systems. There are some vocational 
training programs for the general public which the Indian 
may take advantage of such as MDTA. Special adult edu- 
cation classes are available at the Phoenix Indian Center, 
how successful or what the participation has been is not 
known . 

In the Phoenix Union High School Systems the number 
of Indian students is 40.. The only reason that these 
statistics are available is because the schools are re- 
quired to submit the number of American Indian students 
attending, in order to request JOM funds to supplement the 
school budget. The JOM Act passed provides money for 
Indian education. Money under that Act is to be spent 
only for Indians. 



EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 

Indian children bring millions of Federal dollars each 
year into public school districts. Indian children are 
counted 3 times under 3 different statutes, in order to 
make a school district eligible for Federal funds. These 
funds are supposed to support both the basic educational 
program in Indian schools and special programs designed 
to meet the unique needs of Indian children. 

This is the legal framework. But, what really happens 
to the money? How are Indian children faring in Phoenix 
public schools? 

These are questions that need to be answered, and yet 
one can almost with complete certainty say that enough is 
not being done with the Federal monies to promote the edu- 
cation of Indian children. 

Recently the Chicano coalition and the Black communi- 
ty through organized efforts brought enough pressure to 
bear upon the PUHSS, that the school district agreed to 
hire employees on a percentage basis. The percentage 
corresponding to the percentage of Blacks and Chicanos 
enrolled in the school. There are considerable differences 
in the cultural backgrounds of these two ethnic groups and 
that of the Indian, this we know. However, this is only 
mentioned to cite the fact that organized pressure can 
bring changes. 

More in-depth study is needed in this area. There 
are few statistics available. 

There is a substantial number of young people attending 
trade schools or junior colleges, under programs sponsored 



EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 

by the employment assistance branch of the BIA. There is 
little that is offered to these students in the way of 
recreation, most are here from reservations and the only 
places for them to go to meet other students are to bars 
frequented by Indians. 

Both the junior colleges and Arizona State University 
have Indian clubs, these students are concerned and wish 
to become involved in the community. These young people 
should be encouraged to participate and become involved. 
The effect that this would have on the Indian community 
could only be good. More efforts should be directed to 
meet this need. 
D. Health 

There is very little information available on health 
problems concerning the Urban Indian community. Most of 
the Indian people make use of the Phoenix Indian Medical 
Center, of late, however, there have been rumors circulat- 
ing of the intention of the IHS to make certain urban 
Indians ineligible for service at the Indian Hospital. 
This issue brought together a large number of Indian people 
who organized to protest their right to medical services 
at the Indian Hospital. 

As tax paying citizens, Indian people are eligible 
for medical treatment at the county hospital, but it has 
long been the policy of the county hospital to refer all 
Indians to the Indian hospital. Therefore, if certain 
Indian people are denied medical treatment at the PIMC 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

because they are "urban" Indians, this would indeed create 
a critical situation. 

In the very near future the outcome of this issue 
may create more problems for Indians residing in urban 
areas. Hov/ever, because they have organized, the Indian 
community's position is much improved. 

City health agencies have stressed the need for a 
detailed study to be done on the Indian population of 
Phoenix, so that they can include Indians in their pro- 
gram planning. It is not known what the healtn needs 
of the Indian community are. 

Also in Phoenix there is a need for a program aimed 
at helping Indian youth to become more aware of alcohol' 
and drug abuse. In speaking to an officer within the 
Phoenix Police Department, this need was brought out and 
ways to meet it were discussed. The Phoenix Police De- 
partment would be willing to work with any youth or other 
group interested in preventing alcohol and drug abuse 
among young people. This is a definite need, and cannot 
be over emphasized. 
E. Housing 

There is very little information available on the 
housing needs of Indians in Phoenix, except that there is 
a need for a housing specialist to deal directly and 
specifically with this problem. The city of Phoenix, in 
their low-income housing projects have approximately 30 
Indian families, with 3 families (out of a total of 700 
applicants) on the waiting list. The reasons for the low 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

number of Indians participating in the city's low-income 
housing projects, are not clear. However, it is known 
••■hat Indians prefer to live among Indians and that the 
projects are either predominately Black or Chicano. This 
hesitancy among Indians to assimilate, would be a major 
factor to take into consideration when planning future 
housing projects for Indians (if ever) . 

The Phoenix Indian Cneter during the month of January, 
had 28 requests from Indian people for housing. They are 
not equipped to handle the housing problems of Phoenix's 
Indian population, however, a housing specialist could be 
very useful working With or out of the Indian Center. 
F. Welfare 

There were no statistics available for the city 
welfare department. The only available statistics are 
those for Maricopa County, and the figures we were given 
for Indian participants in the state welfare program was 
very low. Obviously, more study is needed in this area. 



EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 


A. The survey concludes the lack of any adequate data 

on Phoenix Urban Indians problems from which to plan 

and develop comprehensive program solutions. 

We recommend an in-depth coordinated research effort 
into the designated problem areas surveyed in this 

B. In conjunction with a coordinated research program 

the is further need for an organized communityrwide 

communications and planning network. 

° We recommend the expansion of the Urban Indian Project 
Committee as the mechanism for the development of 
such a network or coalition. 

C. The survey concludes that the Phoenix Indian Center 

has currently the most comprehensive programatic 

approach to solving Phoenix Urban Indian problems as 

a social service agency. 

° We recommend that further social service programs 
be planned and developed in relationship with the 
existing Indian Center. 

D. The survey concludes the lack of any coordinated social 

action effort within the Urban Indian community. 

° We recommend the proposed Indian community-wide net- 
work or coalition assume primarily a planning co- 
ordinating and social action approach to community 
problem-solving . 

E. The planning and participation in the development of 

such a network should remain open. to all Interested 

Indian groups and organizations. 

° We, therefore, also recommend the further utili- 
zation of the Committee approach ; rather than 
presently incorporating as an organization. 



EXHIBIT NO. 3 (Continued) 
The survey concludes the necessity of employing a 
full-time Indian community organizer to carry-out 
under the auspices of the Urban Indian Project Com- 
mittee the previously stated recommendations. 

° We recommend the utilization of an agreed upon 
conduit organization to fund such a position. 

° We further recommend that the Project Committee 
approach the existing Indian organizations, Com- 
munity Council and United Fund for resources to 
hire a community organizer. 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 


William Joe - Arizona State Employment Service 

Angie Torrez - Arizona Civil Rights Commission 

Milford and Jeannie Sanderson - Amerind 

Rose King - Director, Phoenix Indian Center 

Dorothy Allen - Phoenix Indian Center 

Jim Hyslop - Phoenix Indian Center Board of Directors - Chairman 

Curt Nordwall - Arizona Indian Centers, Inc. 

Juana Lyons - Arizona State Employment Service 

Capt. Doze Nelson - Phoenix Police Dept., Community Relations Officer 

Henry Cabiroc - Human Relations, City of Phoenix 

Jim Boozer - Human Relations, City of Phoenix 

Rev. Joed Miller - First Presbyterian Church 

Leon Ignacio - Center for Community Change 

Dan Hopkins - Concerned Indians 

Paul Klores - Valley National Bank 

Manny Ballesteros - Phoenix Public Housing 

Pat McGee - Indian Development Districts of Arizona 

Grace McCullough - Indian Development Districts of Arizona 

Rudy Paz - Personnel Officer (EEO) City of Phoenix 

Eugene Wilson - Public Health Service, Phoenix Area Office 

Sam DeCorsi - PHS-IHS, Phoenix Area Office 

Joyce Neil - Maricopa County Hospital, Social Services 

Jesse Sixkiller - Director, ACTION Agency 

Cecil Corbett - Director, Cook Christian Training School 

Vince Doyle - LEAP Center #1, Director 

Kit Evans - Valley National Bank - CIRCA Committee 


presented to Phoenix Indian Health Board on 


Availability of Health Services 

to Phoenix Urban Indians 

To explain the status of Urban Indians in relationship to the services 
of the Indian Health Service is both confusing and difficult. Perhaps by 
following a sequence of a negative position to a positive position may be 
the most logical and understandable approach in explaining this matter. 

The General Counsel's Office of the Department of Health, Education 
and Welfare has advised that individual Indians do not have entitlement to 
services provided by the Indian Health Service, The individual becomes 
eligible for health services through membership in a group, tribe or band 
for whom Congress has given the responsibility to Indian Health Service for 
providing Vip^Hh services- Congress has indicated the intent that Federal 
services be provided to Indians who reside on reservation^ (trust property)- 
for which the Federal government has a trustee responsibility. Indian people, 
who by leaving the reservation leave the Indian group whicli is eligible to 
receive Federal services, are considered to no linger be within the scope 
of the Federal programs. 

(Individual Indians as American citizens do have legal entitlement to 
services of a state provided to all state citizens similarly circumstanced. 
"Similarly circumstanced" means meeting specific criteria to receive 
services, such as, being indigent or medically indigent. In other words, 
some state services are not available to 100% of the stale citizens, but are 
available to those citizens who are unable to obtain services through their 
own resources. This is, of course, another subject that would require 



EXHIBIT NO. 4 (Continued) 

extensive explanation regarding residence requirements, state means 
test etc. ) 

Several recent acts or actions confirm the position taken by the 
General Counsel's Office. The President's Special Message to Congress 
on Indians, Section 7, points out that Federal Indian services are for 
reservation Indians, (see attachment). The Congress on two occasions 
has in effect confirmed this position by specifically authorizing Indian Health 
Service to provide some health services to at least two Urban Indian groups 
residing in Rapid City, South Dakota and the Minneapolis -St. Paul, Minnesota 

The Indian Health Service in the late 1950 ! s, exercising the broad 
discretionary powers delegated to the Secretary of Department of Health, 
Education and Welfare, broke with tradition and began to identify drawing 
areas, service areas or patterns of Indian utilization of Indian Health Service 
hospitals and health centers. These service areas generally were much 
larger than the geographic boundaries of the reservations as they related 
to an area within which individuals travelled to get to an Indian Health 
Service hospital or clinic. Using the service areas or drawing areas concept, 
Indian Health Service then established Service Unit boundaries, and stated as 
policy that we would try to provide direct health services to all individuals 
who could be identified as being of Indian descent, and who resided within the 
boundaries of a Service Unit. Sometimes Indian Health Service even went 
further and stated that whenever possible we would try to provide services 
at IHS health facilities to Indian people who ?ived outside a Service Unit but 
who were able to present themselves to an HIS health facility. 


EXHIBIT NO. 4 (Continued) 


In the case: of the new Phoenix Indian Medical Center, the justification 
presented to Congress to support the appropriation of funds to construct 
the new hospital was based on (1) the need to provide primary health services 
to Indians residing on reservations within the Phoenix Service Unit, and 
(2) to provide medical center referral facilities for the other Phoenix Area 
Service Units. The urban Indian population of Phoenix and other valley 
cities was not counted or included in the justification. Although the new 
Phoenix Indian Medical Center has folJowed established Indian Health Service 
policy, and provided services to all recognized Indians residing within the 
Phoenix Service Unit, including Urban Indians, the health needs of the 
Urban Indians cannot be used as a justification for increasing personnel, 
or for expanding the size of the Phoenix Indian Medical~Center without 
specific authority from Congress. An additional application of the broad 
Indian Health Service policy was the acceptance of representation from the 
Urban Indians on the Phoenix Service Unit Indian Health Board. 

Since the opening of the new Phoenix Indian Medical Center, the workload 
has exceeded that anticipated. This has been especially true for outpatient 
services and deliveries. A significant amount of the services have been 
provided to Urban Indians. For example, for the six months period January 1 
through June 30, 1971, slightly over 58% of outpatient visits were made by 
individuals who gave as their residence one of five Valley cities. 

If the Urban Indian population continues to grow in the Valley, and the 
request for services at Phoenix Indian Medical Center significantly increases, 


EXHIBIT NO. 4 (Continued) 

it will become necessary to reestablish priorities- for services to Urban 
Indians, thus limiting or eliminating such services. 

Charles S. McCammon, M. D. 


Phoenix Area Indian Health Service 


September 22, 1972 


Quarterly EEO Staff Report 

Deputy rr.C Cfficar. 1113 Headquarters 
ATTN: Mr. Richard M&cy 




Cimino, Louis HRDS 

DeCorse, Samuel EEOO 

James, Helen HRDS 

Keevama, A. Timothy HRDS 

Nel30t:, Wilma J. SEC. 

PART II - ( 




























i*slson, VJilma J. 





t r.i\ J. 

a.x^- " «_.-^ h*u- w.;a«jA«A 

,^..o V.*, 

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Nurse As st. 


A- INT) 


Juan, Richard 


Ft. Yuasa 

Wabaunsee, Al 

p.H. Adv. 




Lomakema, Stetson 

Sup. Asst. 



Kecin3 Canyon 

Durar-t, Rr.ndy 





Uciua, Aim 

T> »T 




Sniff en, Clark 




San Carlos 

Archuleta, Vci-cie 





Eit-rf.r> B. Blackwater 

Jr.n. gorgsaan 




Ksnneth Lundernvaa 

VI u. Op. Supv. 




Janes ".'ebb 





Mtvry B. Ittr.s 

Hit. Educator 




Wilson Christennen 

Med, Lab. Tech. 




Lynfotd C.-.vtor 

Hainc. nan 




Sciiru.-'.i DeCorse, 

Associate Deputy LEO Officer 



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_ . , , __« OFFICE OF THE 

December 1, 197Z general counsel 

Mr. John H. Powell 

General Counsel 

United States Civil Rights 

Room 608 

1121 Vermont Avenue, N.W. 
Washington, D. C. 20425 

Dear Mr. Powell: 

During the testimony of Dr. Charles McCammon, Director 
of the Phoenix Area Indian Health Service, at the 
Commission's hearings In Phoenix on November 17, 1972, 
you requested Information on the number of housing units 
operated the Indian Health Service, the manner of assignment, 
and the occupancy of the units by race and job. The enclosed 
data is submitted for inclusion in the record on behalf of 
Dr. McCammon in answer to these questions. 

If we may be of further assistance, please contact us. 

Sincerely yours, 

Xjamee P. Welssenborn 
Attorney Advisor 
Public Health Division 




EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 


CHAPTER 5-6. 5A 


Distribution: All Manual Holders (Lists I and II) 

Subject: Quarters Management 

| a Purpose . To implement policies and procedures prescribed by CHEW, Public 
Health Service, and Division of Indian Health for the management of Government 
Quarters and to prescribe the procedure for requesting assignment of quarters, 
processing and recording of assignments, and required termination procedures 
when quarters are vacated. 

2. Pol icy . It Is the pol icyof the Division of Indian Health to provide 
quarters only to commissioned or civilian personnel essential to the program 
on a 2k hour basis or required to live at a station because of remoteness, or 
to otherwise protect Government property. The Division of Indian Health cannot 
reasonably expect to secure approval of funds from the Bureau of the Budget 

and the Congress to construct quarters for every person it employs. This requires 
that a line be drawn as to those categories of personnel for whom the Division 
will ordinarily provide quarters. In this respect the foliowing policies of 
the Division of Indian Health will prevail. 

a. Living quarters will not be constructed or furnished for personnel 
who have or would normally provide themselves with housing accommodations 
in the community adjacent to tire PHS ily, or if the employee has an 
established residence or a home of choice within one hour's travel time one way 
of the PHS facility (50 highway miles), unless the employee is required to 
live on the station due to reasons of essentiality. If any emplovees of this 
type are presently quartered in DIH housing they may retain occupancy until such 
time as the housing may be required for employees for whom it must be provided. 

b. Housing will be provided for those employees who are eligible under 
the criteria cited in paragraph 3 titled, "Determination of Essentiality to 
Program". It is the desire, as far as possible, to prevent or alleviate 
hardships for such employees who are employed at a facility remotely located 
fron. their place of permanent residence. • 

3. Determinat ion of Essentiality to Program . 

a. No officer or employer shall be required to occupy Government owned 

or leased quarters unless considered essential to the program on a 2^ hour basis. 

b. The Service Unit Director of each respective field station will assign 
quarters, to the extent such quarters exist, to personnel occupying civilian 

and commissionoJ positions (rooting the essentiality criteria in oriicr of priority 
as provided below and In Exhibit 5-6. 2(s). 

(l) To provide housing accommodations to personnel essential to msdical 
operations on n ^U-h^tir h-nls. 


EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 


5-6. 5A 

(2) To provide housing for personnel essential to protect Government 

(3) To provide housing for personnel who for reasons of remoteness 
or conditions of the 'community, could not otherwise be satisfactorily housed. 

,«*W dvt ».i. ■«.•.. ,'k -ii «i ■-.'«- -. >I , ,, •...:. 

(U) Upon satisfying the above requirements, remaining housing may 
be assigned to non-local hires as determined In the judgement of the Service 
Unit Director to be in the best interest of the program. 

c. In determining essentiality of personnel as outlined herein, the general 
criteria to be applied under established policy is that when private housing 
Is available to fulfill the normal needs of the Individual within a one hour's 
commuting distance one way (50 highway miles) the position, If not otherwise 
essential, he (she) will not be assigned Government quarters for the sole 
reason of isolation. 

4. Area Evaluation Board. 

a. An Area Quarters Evaluation Board, comprised of the following members, 
Is appointed: 

Deputy Indian Health Area Director 

Chief, Area Pharmacy Branch 

Chief, Area Administrative Services Branch (Chairman) 


Chief, Area Health Education Branch 
Chief, Area Contract Medical Care Branch 

A minimum of two members of the regular board shall constitute a quorum, 

b. The Board shall, within prescribed quarters management policies arid 
criteria, be responsible for making recommendations to the Indian Health Area 
Director regarding the designation of public quarters, rental quarters, the 
establishment of quarters rental rates, the determinat ion of adequacy or 
inadequacy of public or rental quarters, the selection of those quarters 
inadequate for continued occupancy at the facility and other related respon- 
sibilities as assigned by the Indian Health Area Director. 

c. To accomplish these responsibilities, the Board may authorize the 
use of private commercial appraisers to moke appraisals and/or utilize Area 
Office personnel to make surveys and appraisals as required. The Board will 
also review when appropriate, the policies of other Federal Agencies In the 
same general area for the purpose of promoting a consistent local pattern of 
rental rates. 


EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 



5. Assignment of Quartors . 

«. Assignment of quarters to essential personnel Is necessary and mandatory. 
It Is necessary that cortaln positions, by title, be established for the 
purpose of assignment to quarters, theso positions to take precedent over all 
others. Exhibit 5-6.5A(2) of this Issuance sets forth the priority of assignment, 
however, any deviations from the official priority listing shall be approved In 
advance by the Area Executive Staff. .i if **■■ *£•&* o>> //„,- /* ..»'.• • »*•'■ 

b. Although Exhibit 5-6.5A(l) sets forth quarters designated by the 
Indian Health Area Director for occupancy by the Service Unit Director of each 
respective facility, the assignment criteria for a SUD will be governed by 
pertinent factors such as size of family, etc. (i.e. a bachelor officer will not 
normally be assigned to a 3 or k bedroom quarters). Also, an officer will not 
be required to change quarters should he be appointed as the SUD if his existing 
quarters are adequate for his needs. However, should an officer living in private 
quarters off the station be appointed as the SUD, he will be required to move 

on the station. 

c. Procedure for Assignment of Quarters . 

(1) Commissioned Personnel . All commissioned personnel (except Service 
Unit Directors), upon reporting for duty at a station, will submit to the Service 
Unit Director, a written request for quarters using Form PGS-61 , "Request for 
Assignment of Quarters". The Service Unit Director will show In writing, in 

the appropriate space on the form, availability and assignment and brief 
description of quarters, or advice that adequate quarters are not available. 
All completed forms will be submitted through the Area Property Management 
Office to the Area Financial Management Officer within three days after reporting 
for duty. This action is required to support the officer's first pay voucher. 
The above procedures will also apply when reassignments occur. When a new 
Service Unit Director is involved, he shall execute the request for quarters 
assignment at the Area Office when first reporting for duty. The Property 
Management Section will prepare the necessary paperwork on request. 

(2) Civil Service Personnel . In all instances. Civil Service personnel 
who occupy rental quarters, will immediately upon arrival, execute and submit 
Form PGS-61. The Service Unit Director will complete the form as appropriate. 

(3) After execution and completion of Form PGS-61, when public or 
rental quarters will be assigned, such assignments shall be made only by use of 
Form HEW-337, "Quarters Assignment Record". The assignments, except for Service 
Unit Directors, sh'all be initiated and processed at the Field Facility in 
accordance with Exhibits 5-6.5A(8)&(9) . The document flow on assignments and 
accompanying quarters requests (Form PGS-C1) is clearly defined In these 
exhibits. Preparation of "Quarters Assignment Record", Form HEV-337. Is explained 
in Exhibit 5-6.5A(6). 


EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued 

5-6. 5A 

d. Criteria for Assignment . 

(1) While not mandatory by regulation or otherwise, the applicant's 
family size should be considered to the extent possible In nuking assignments 
to either public or rental quarters. Generally, however, with due regard for 
the age and sex of dependents, the following criteria should be given serious 

(a) Han and wife or single commissioned officer - I bedroom 

(b) Han and wife with I or 2 dependents - 2 bedrooms 

(c) Han and wife with 3 or more dependents - 3 bedrooms 

(d) Senior Surgeon or above - 2 or 3 bedroom 

(2) If a commissioned officer voluntarily occupies or chooses to 
occupy an available set of quarters whether adequate or inadequate, for his own 
personal convenience, such quarters shall be considered adequate public quarters 
for purposes of non-payment of any basic quarters allowance. 

(3) When a set of quarters has been permanently designated for an 
employee by position title on the basis of priority of essentiality, but such 
quarters are vacated and it appears that they will remain vacant for an 
indefinite period, the quarters may be assigned temporarily to another employee 
having a different position title or lesser priority. The temporary assignee 
shal l_ formally accept occupancy in writing with the proviso that upon notice 

of need of the quarters by priority personnel, the temporary assignee agrees 
to vacate. 

6. Quarters Occupancy Responsibilities . 

a. Occupants of Government quarters shall be held responsible for the 
proper care and occupancy of such quarters. The Quarters Officer or the 
individual having such responsibility will conduct an inspection of each quarters 
unit at least once every six (6) months to verify adequacy of the tenants house- 
keeping practices. A station committee of three shall be formed, consisting 

of the SUD or Administrative Officer, the Director of Nursing, and the Chief, 
Maintenance Officer, to perform these inspection functions. All tenants shall 
be advised of the inspection schedule. Any damage or excessive wear, or 
unsanitary conditions noted shall be brought to the tenant's attention for 
immediate correction. Any deficiency v.hich has not been corrected by the 
next inspection time shall be reported to the Area Property Management Officer 
who shall initiate corrective measures. All Committee members shall have the 
right of access to all quarters for the purpose of inspection. 

b. All costs Incidental to the repair or restoration of the premises due 
to dames or excessive wp.";r or ur:'..--nl t.-ry conditions, otfor thnn normal »"».--r 
and ar«: prc;-.:rly cimrij able t ., tii.s occupant. 1 <.•;.-,•-> t ov such c .5 
shall ba made bo 1 ore ttia occupant is relieved of such responsibilities in 
connection with the occupancy of tho quorters. 


EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 

EXHIBIT 5-6. 5A (2) 





*Medlcal Officer 
Dental Officer 
Other Commissioned Officers 

*Administrat ive Officer 
*Olrector of Nursing 
*Building and Grounds Manager 
• and/or Head Maintenanceman 

Assistant Director of Nursing 

Head Nurse 
-vStaff Nurses 

Publ ic Health Nurses 
*Medical 6 X-Ray Technician 
*Medical Technician 
.fledical Record Librarian 

Medical and/or C!:::icc! Sccis! V.'crkcr 

Education Specialist (Community Worker) 
*Dietitian or Head Cook 

Nursing Assistants, GS-4 and GS-3 

Dental Assistant 

Medical Records Clerk 
♦Ambulance Driver and/or Chauffeur 

and/or Chauffer (Laborer) one only 
Maintenanceman, other than Head Cooks 

and/or cooks helpers 
Clerks and/or Clerk-Typist and/or 

Sanitarian Ah J e 
Property and Supply Clerk 
Pharmacy helpers 

Laborer and/or Maintenance Helper 
Truck Driver 
Nursing Assistants - GS-2 

* Considered essential to program on 2k hour basis 

** (Seo paragraph 5\'r)n regarding restrictions on hires) 


EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 

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EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 

The Tucson Program Area housing assignment policy and priority is 
as follows: 

(1) The first priority is to non-local personnel 
essential to medical operations on a 24 hour 

(2) The second priority is to non-local personnel 
essential to the maintenance of government 

(3) The third priority is to non-local personnel 

who for reasons of remoteness could not otherwise 
be satisfactorily housed 

(4) Remaining housing units after satisfying the 
above priorities are available to local hires . 


EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 


















EXHIBIT NO. 6 (Continued) 



en on c\j 


EXHIBIT NO 6 (Continued) 



The Report of the Housing Committee of 
The Hospital Workers 1 Association 

Port Defiance 1972 


EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 


This study was undertaken by the Housing Committee 
of! the Hospital Workers' Association, a coalition of 
workers to investigate injustices against the workers 
of Fort Defiance Indian Health Service Hospital. The 
report was begun in August 1972 and was largely completed 
at" the end of September 1972. 

The study was initiated because of several reasons. 
The first reason was the obvious division of PHS housing 
into two parts— one area of fairly large, attractive houses 
which are surrounded by well kept grounds,. and another 
area of run-down, small and poorly maintained houses. 
More recently, the PHS has also purchased several mobile 
homes scattered in several places in ?t. Defiance which 
are rented to several employees. 3ut the bulk of the 
housing is contained in the above mentioned areas. The 
first area will be referred to as the PHS Compound; the 
second area will be called the Camp Pickets. 

The Camp Pickets were imoorted from a nearby Army 
3ase in the early 1950 's to provide temporary housing 
for Hospital employees. Not long after this they vrere 
condemned as unfit for occupation. Yet to this day, 
Hospital workers, almost exclusively ITavajo and mainly 
of low pay grades, have been paying rent to the PHS 
for these houses. The rent runs approximately £35 per 
month. 3y and large these houses have been the only 
PHS housing open to Havajo employees from outside the 
Pt. Defiance Chapter. If they were not satisfied with 
this housing, they were forced to try to rent the rare 
available private home or had to travel long distances. 
Recently, the PHS has decided to do away with the Pickets. 
V/henever an occuoant leaves a house vacant, it is torn 
down. The Administration claims that it is converting the 
area into a trailer park with hook-up facilities. The 
employees will be reauired to purchase their own trailers. 
Several of the Picket houses have been torn down. There 
is no sign yet of a developing trailer park, although at 
least one employee has purchased a trailer about three 
months ago and is waiting to move it in. 

The PHS Compound is located just north of the Hospital. 
Its appearance contrasts sharoly with the abearance of 
the Pickets. There are no dilapidated houses, no littered 
vacant lots. The homes are promptly repaired and even 
improved whenever necessary. Several of the homes have 
an extra bedroom constructed in the garage area, several 
done quite recently. The occupants of this area^ are 
generally white, well paid, with small families. These 
homes vary in size from two bedrooms to four bedrooms, 
except for the apartments for single employees. It is 
claimed by the Administration that these houses are mainly 
for the employees that stay for two years— mainly physicians, 
dentists, and pharmacists. Despite this however there seem 
to be no written guidelines for occupancy of these houses. 
The houses are distributed by the decision of one person— 

the Administrative ° fficer. 


EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 

This brings us to the other reasons why this study 
wa*s initiated. If a study were to conclude that there is 
indeed a discriminatory pattern in PHS housing, certain 
questions would have to be answered. Why has a situation 
been allowed to develop over many years in which no 
adequate housing is provided for Navajo employees from 
outside the Ft. Defiance area? And why is the decision 
of one person allowed to decide the living conditions of 
so many employees? This is the purpose of this study. 


EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 


In addition to the general observations contained in 
the introduction, several specific complaints have been 
/raised by the workers at the meetings of the Hospital 
/Workers ' Organization. Some of these repeat statements 
'made previously in the report, but are important enough 
to be repeated and stressed. 


1) High- paid executives, mostly white, are provided 
with inexpensive luxurious houses in Ft. Defiance. Many 
of the occupants of the PHS Compound are Commisioned 
Officers who pay rent by surrendering their Housing 
Allowance of >200- ol\DO per month. However, most of the 
other occupants pay only about ";50-$60 per month. The£e 
are the people referred to in the complaint. 

2) Several Window Rock executives live in large 
houses in Fort Defiance. In at least one case, this 
involved clear-cut favoritism. Mrs.' Marie Lincoln, 
the head of personnel in the Hospital, has a daughter 
who works in Window Rock, Mary Veniicek. She was giyien 
an apartment in Fort Defiance shortly after starting 
to work for PES. 

3) The Navajo employees who have gotten PHS housing 
live mainly in condemned, run-down houses which are 
rarely repaired. Many of the good houses in the PHS 
comoound seem to go to white employees, while Navajo 
employees in the same level job live in the Pickets. 
For example, the Chief of the Radiology Dept., a 
Navajo, has lived in the Pickets for about 18 years, 
despite requests for better housing. The supervisor of 
the I^aintenafice Department, a white man, lives in a 
large house \Ln the PES Compound. 

Ij.) There are small families and even one single 
person, the Nursing Director, who occupy two bedroom 
houses in the PES Compound, while several large 
Navajo families have to squeeze into inadequate housing 
or else seek out expensive private housing. 

5) When occupants of the Pickets ask for repairs 
or inrorovements on their houses, they are told there 
are no funds. Yet at the same time, third bedrooms 
are quickly added to houses in the PHS Compound when 
a new baby is born (e.g. 2006 in the Compound). 

6) In Window Rock, an Indian employee was told that 
ahe did not qualify for a new trailer because she did 
not get Daid enough. When she objected, she was told by 
Dr. Bock's white secretary that she should be thankful 
that she has her old house, and that she might find herself 
in the street. 


EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 

7) At least one llavajo erroloyee, an experienced 
and highly qualified Registered Nurse, left ?t. Defiance 
Hospital this nonth because of lack of adequate housing. 
She is now working in Crownpoint, where she is originally 


EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 

The following section includes information 
about PHS housing in Ft. Defiance. Included are naps 
of the PHS Compound and the Can? Pickets. Also included 
are lists of occupants of the housing, including 
where they work, the size of their family, and the 
approximate time they have worked for PKS. 

Not included in this section are the trailers 
just north of the Hospital, mainly occupied by the 
dental interns. Also not included are three trailers 
owned by PHS in the Black Rock Trailer Court. These 
were purchased earlier in 1972 and are rented to 
one of the ITurse Midwives, and two of the new 
Community Health Medics. Presumably the PKS obtained 
outside funding for these trailers. 

The racial background of the occupants is not 
included in this section. The reason for this can 
be simmed up in one sentence. There are no non-Indian 
families in" the Pickets; there are four Indian families 
in the PHS Compound, not including the apartments. 

EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 


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EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 


Statistics on 


Defiance ?HS Housing 


'j NAME 


# of YEARS # of 




iirs> Notah 


Rose Mark 

dental therapist 
Dent al dep t. 

8 yrs. 



I 37 

Kee J. Arthur 

puchasing agent 
General Services 

9 yrs. 




Rose Suen 

x-ray technician 
X-ray dept. 

3k yrs. 




i !+0 

Alice Yazzie 


3 yrs. 




Walter Francisco 

Maintenance dept. 


Tom Kanning 

x-ray technician 
X-ray dept. 

18 yrs. 




Henry 5 .1 lie 

cook helper 

21 yrs. 





Mrs. Tracy 


Nurd, ng 

20 yrs. 




Rena Smith 



12 yrs. 




Mrs . V/auneka 

cook helper 

2$ yrs. 




Justin James 


19 yrs. 




Rose Mary Wade 

procurement ass't 
General Services 

9 yrs. 




Mrs. Arnold 


17 yrs. 




Johnny McCabe 


15 yrs. 



Pearl McCabe 

lab ass't 

19 yrs. 




Keats 3egay 

sanitary aide, 033 

29 yrs. 



Mrs. Ro se I'alwood 

L?N, Nursing 

v li yrs. 




EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 


When this study was undertaken it vias the opinion 
of many of the workers at Fort Defiance Hospital that 
superior housing is made available to white employees 
more easily than to Indian employees. Much of the 
data offered in the previous sections supports this 

The Administration, in its dealings with the workers, 
has made two basic assumptions about housing. One is 
that Indian employees, and especially Navajo employees, 
have an easier time finding housing because this is 
the Navajo Nation. Hox^ever, many employees are from 
distant areas and are not members of the Ft. Defiance 
Chapter. It is as difficult for members of the other 
chapters to find housing or buy land here as it is 
for non-Indians. The second assumption is that if housing 
is not provided for non-Indians, it will be impossible 
to attract physicians and other professionals to the 
Hospital. This, however, does not deal with the issue. 
The question is not whether the houses should all be 
taken from the Anglos and given to the Indians. 
This would be as discriminatory as the present policy. 
The question is WHY has this present discriminatory 
housing policy been allowed to continue for this 
long without being corrected? And how many Navajo 
employees left because of ooor and inadequate housing? 
The present PN3 administration has continued this policy 
even though they did not start it. 

This housing study was done in response to the 
workers' concern and questions. In the Navajo Nation 
the Navajo people are still being discriminated against. 
The workers want to know WHYJ 


EXHIBIT NO. 7 (Continued) 


During the housing study, several ideas were 
brought up by the workers to provide adequate housing 
in a short time for the Ilavajo employees. 

Recommendations included the workers building 
and repairing houses in the area of the Pickets after 
work hours and on weekends. Another idea was to 
have the Commissioned Officers and highly paid executives 
move to the expensive apartments being privately rented. 
This would entail a change, of requirements for occupancy 
of these houses. A third idea x>ras for the Area PHS 
to petition the federal Government to send the housing 
allowance for the Commissioned Officers to the Area 
for funding housing. How the housing allowance does 
not leave Washington. This would bring over l|6,000 
dollars for improved housing. 

A basic recommendation is that a Housing Committee 
be formed of Hospital Workers to decide housing issues 
and priorities. This seems to be a necessity. 



Carl A. Hammerschlag, M.D. 
Mental Health Consultant 
Indian Health Service 
Phoenix, Arizona 

The author is indebted to Clayton P. Alderfer, Associate Professor 
Department of Admin. Sciences, Yale University and David Berg, a 
graduate student in the department for their intimate collaboration 
and encouragement at every level of the research understanding. 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
The history of programs for the formal education of American Indians 

dates back to colonial times when the Jesuits established a school for 

Florida Indians in 1568. Evaluating its impact was as much an issue 

for our colonial ancestors as it is for modern educators. Much of the 

literature is devoted to historical reviews and definitions of the ,problem. 

There is general agreement that Indian children perform more poorly than 

white children on achievement tests, are educationally retarded and drop 

out of school with frequency. 

The Bureau of Indian Affairs, charged with the education of American 

Indians, operates more than 200 schools in 17 states of which 77 are 

boarding schools. Of the approximately 200,000 school age children, 

35,000 are in BIA boarding schools, 16,000 in day schools and 24,000 housed 

in BIA dormitories while attending public schools. Of the 35,000 children 

in boarding schools more than 12,000 attend the nineteen off -reservation 

boarding schools. These, for the most part, provide a high school 

education for Indian children who have complected the 8th grade. The 

remainder are in on-reservation boarding schools of whom 8,000 are 

elementary students, 9 years old or under. Enrollment in BIA boarding 

schools is increasing; it has, indeed, doubled in the decade of the 60's. 

This paper explores the impact of an Indian boarding school on the 

student and the staff members who live, learn and work there. It asks, 

what is it like, how does it make you feel, and how are you left after 

having participated in the system. 

- 1 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 {Continued) 

Historical Overview 

The concern for educating American Indians dates back to earliest 

colonial times when the major responsibility fell to the churches who 

began the process of "humanizing and civilizing". Following the push 

westward in the mid-19th century it was felt that the establishmenC of 

reservations and a system of education would be a humane and cheap way 

of pacifying Indians. More importantly it was felt that boarding schools, 

remote from Indian communities would be a good way to accomplish this. 

The civil war marked a turning point in the history of American Indian 

education. There arose thereafter, a great concern for the welfare of 

Indians and the federal government began to assume a significantly larger 

role. In 1870 Congress appropriated $100,000 for the operation of 

federal industrial schools and in 1878-79, the first off -reservation 

boarding school, exemplified by Carlisle, dominated the approach to 

Indian education for 50 years. Its philosophy included the removal of 

students from their homes, strict military discipline, a work-study 

program with emphasis on industrial arts. 

In 1928 a devastating criticism of the boarding school was made by 
Merriam who publicized the inadequacies, archaicisms and cruelities of 

BIA educational institutions. However, the recommendations challenged 

the means by which the traditional goal of Indian education was to be 

implemented, not changes in the goal itself. 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

From 1943-1946 the University of Chicago, under contract with 

the BIA, gave selected tests to 4th, 8th, and 12th grade Indian and 

white students. They found that Indian pupils in federal schools 

did not achieve as well in the basic skills as white or Indian 

pupils in public schools. Those findings were corrobbrated by 

(6) (7) 

Anderson and Coombs , who concluded that "as the cultural and 

educational background of Indian children become more like those of 
white children in public schools, the more closely the educational 
achievement of Indian children match that of white children". 
Recapitulating, in more muted terms perhaps, a philosophy expressed 
400 years earlier, that for Indians to become, they have abandon 
from whence they came. To Indian people this has meant leaving their 
Indianness and adopting some other framework. There are many Indian 
people who today still believe that education is a not so subtle 
attempt to sow the seeds of cultural dissolution and that schools are 
dedicated to the reformative aim of Indian annihilation. There are 
still rituals among tribes to cleanse their children of white conta- 
mination on their return from boarding school. The federal Indian 
boarding school by its own description, is the "foremost acculturative 
agency". It inculcates the habits and expectations of the society and 
produces by its very existence an institutional dependence which 
revolves around the dream that its recipients can benefit significantly 
from this kind of schooling. 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

The National Indian Youth Council with the Far West Laboratory 

for Educationa Research and Development reported in June 1969 

that "Indian education as a body of pedagogical principles, philosophy 

or techniques, does not exist. Rather Indian education can be defined 

as the imposition of white American educational institutions upon 

American Indian communities. The report concludes that the crucial 

problem in the education of American Indian children is the general 

relationship between white society and the Indian people. This 

relationship frequently demeans Indians, destroys their self-respect and 

self-confidence, develops or encourages apathy and a sense of alienation 

from the educational process, and deprives them of an opportunity to 

develop the ability and experience to control their own affairs through 

participation in effective local government." 

Mr. Robert Bennett, former BIA Commissioner, acknowledged that the 

boarding school issue and Indian education generally was an emotionally 

laden area with articulate advocates of contending points of view and 

offered a trained neutral evaluator in the person of Dr. Robert Havinghurst 

to direct a study funded by the U.S. Office of Education and called the 

National Study of American Indian Education. The "Havighurst Report" 

became available in December 1970. Among its conclusions, that Indian 

children were neither basically nor genetically less intelligent than other 

children. It further suggested that Indian youth had the same feelings of 

self-esteem as non-Indian youth of similar socio-economic status, that 

Indian youth showed little evidence of "severe alienation" as measured by 

his feelings of not belonging and powerlessness. " That they like their 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

schools, teachers and the white man's way of life, and that most Indian 

parents were satisfied with the schools. Concluding once again, that as 

the socio-economic status of Indian families improved that the school 

achievement of Indian children would rise. Those findings, as will 

be outlined, are not reflective of my own experience .and data. 

The School System 

Established in 1890, this Indian School is one of the largest off- 
reservation boarding schools, with a current enrollment of approximately 
900 students in 7th and 12th grade. It is accredited by the North Central 
Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools. Its student body, all 
Indians, come with few exceptions, from the tribes of Arizona. 

In the academic year 70-71, there were 917 enrolled students of whom 
262 (297.) left before the end of the school year. Some (97.) left before 
the end of the school year either of their own (or parents) volition but 
most (207.) by dint of expulsion. Attendance at off-reservation boarding 
schools is predicated on the following Bureay eligibility criteria. 
Educational criteria which include: unavailability of public or federal 
day school within reasonable commuting distances; special vocational or 
preparatory course not available elsewhere; and being educationally retarded 
more than three years or with bilingual language difficulties. In 
addition, there are social criteria: individual children rejected and 
neglected for whom no suitable plans can be made; and those whose 
behavior problems cannot be solved by families or existing community 
facilities and who can benefit from the controlled environment of a 

- 5 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
boarding school without harming other children. At least 607. of the 
students are referred for so called "social reasons, and we thus see a 
a somewhat skewed sample of studentry. 

From a profile compiled by the schools counseling service for the 
69-70 school year, it was found that 1/3 of the students are at least 
two years older than the usual age for that grade level. Achievement 
scores, as has been often pointed out, are well below the national average 
and the gap does not close during the high school years. College aptitude 
tests revealed that the overwhelming majority of students fall in the 
lowest 10th percentile. 

Infractions of school rules (drinking, AWOL's, vapor sniffing, etc.) 
are common place but exact data is virtually impossible to obtain. There 
seems to be little consistency in terms of who defines what as an 
infraction, to say nothing of varying styles of reporting them. My own 
impression is that at least 507. and perhaps up to 907. of the students do 
something against the rules even if not reported. 

Organizationally the school is responsible to the superintendent who 
delegates daily operational duties to the principal. Three assistant 
principals head the major divisional areas of instruction, home living, 
and pupil personal services (guidance). Important as well, and not fully 
worked out, is the relationship between the Area BIA Education Office and 
the functional operation of the school. Area education personnel are 
responsible for overall programs, planning, funding and direction. The 
school, although purportedly self-governing, is clearly part of and privy 
to the decision making power of others who are physically and sometimes 

6 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
emotionally far removed. 

Ninety-five percent of the teaching staff are non-Indian. 70% of 
the teaching staff have been at the school more than five years; 17% 
are here for the first time; and 13% have been here from 2-5 years. It 
seems that if one stays more than a year, the likelihood is that one will 
remain. Those who leave the system seem to do so early in their careers. 

The home living or dormitory staff is fairly evenly divided between 
Indian and non-Indian employees, although top-level personnel, with one 
exception, are non-Indian. The staff is charged with the task of providing 
a warm home life, becoming close to students, and providing guidance and 
support. There are seven dorms, which house approximately 130 students 
ear and 55 dormitory personnel who work three different shifts. During 
peak evening hours there are usually two, perhaps three, staff members 
who tasks become that of simply controlling behavior into manageable 
quanta. It means putting out the fires of immediate crises, a job that 
becomes such an omnipresent demand that in most ways it precludes having 
enough energy left over to provide on-going, time consuming, personal 

Counseling and guidance services are provided from a trailer, 
physically (and as we shall see, emotionally) separate from academic and 
dormitory complexes. 

There is little interpenetration of the boundaries between these 
distinct task groups at any time. When it does occur, it does so around 
the mobilization for dismissal of ac ting-up students. When the greatest 
articulation of structure exists for a secondary task of the system, such 

- 7 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 {Continued) 

as behavioral control and the primary task, education, remains isolated 

and well bounded, the system is in for trouble. 

The concept of boundary is an aspect of open systems theory which 

treats organizations as systems whose survival requires continuous 

exchange of materials with the environment. Jf the boundary is too 

permeable it invites innundation, chaos and disorganization, whereas an 

impermeable boundary becomes a barrier which causes death through entropy. 

There are boundaries which separate the organization from its environ- 
ment and those which are internal to the organization. These internal 
boundaries separate task systems from each other. The authority for these 
separate internal operations (dorms, teaching, guidance) is delegated by 
top management to subordinates. The viability of the subsystem and 
ultimately the total organization is dependent on successful boundary 
transactions between the adjacent subsystems. 

In the schools case, each subsystem functions as if totally independent 
and involved in tasks each perceive as mutually exclusive. For example, 
a dormitory head called a guidance counselor at midnight to say that a 
student was drunk and disorderly and to come over right away. The counselor 
replied "I don't think I can do much counseling in her condition" to which 
the dorm head exasperatedly shouted, "I want you here, I want you to see 
what we have to put up with" and then hung up the phone. The event is 
illustrative of a broader theme, one which has less to do with students 
and more with the feeling that each internal subsystem has little sensitivity 
and understanding of what the other does. 

Teachers with academically achieving students often discover that such 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
students have been expelled for chronic after-school misbehavior and then 
wonder why they bother teaching if their student keep disappearing. Yet 
when a student is called out of class for a counseling session to hopefully 
deal with such misbehavior they say "if they pull you out of class, let 
them give you a grade". The theme of impermeability "of boundaries expressed 
in issues like territoriality and insensitivity occurs not only between 
adjacent subsystems but also internally within each task group. Between 
dormitories who interpret and enforce restrictions differently (I think 
the rules for boys and girls dorms should be dif ferent") , between academic 
departments ("this should be a vocational . training center not a college 
prep school"), and between each staff and its supervisor (I don't know 
what the assistant principal in charge of my department is really supposed 
to do"). 

Finally, the boundary between the organization and the external 
environment (local community, Indian reservations, Washington, D.C.) effects 
and reinforces such internal organizational perceptions. The external 
boundary regulation is much less delegatable than internal task functions, 
and it becomes the major task of top management. For example, the schools 
top management was recently confronted by community and Washington pressure 
to keep children in school and was forced to make a decision to have 
expulsions reviewed by a board including tribal, family, school and central 
office representatives. The distances of most reservations preclude any 
any ease for such gatherings, nor much agreement once convened with such 
disparate representation. What has effectively happened is to mullify 
expulsions. However, the internal task systems use the threat and 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
actuality of expulsion as its only effective weapon in enforcing behavioral 
conformity. This decision then (in which they have had no input), removes 
whatever disciplinary power they may have had. As within the internal 
subsystems, here again one sees boundary exclusiveness and impermeability 
resulting in isolation and resentment. Although it is said that all work 
toward one end, the basic theme of impenetrability of not working together, 
and of failure to define task is continually reinforced. By neglecting 
the boundary tasks and its role tasks, a system is produced which then 
tends to become, as will be seen, stagnant and incapable of growth. 

I was introduced as mental health consultant to the Phoenix Indian 
High School in July 1970 within the understanding that I would be spending 
approximately half my time there. I shared my interest in seeing children 
and serving as an organizational consultant with the hope and expectation 
that together we would define my role. As a way of getting to know more 
about the school and the issues people felt were important there, I conducted 
some in depth interviews. A representative cross-section of all departments, 
and students were seen, and with their consent, recorded. These tapings 
included a formally outlined interview, but with wide latitude for 
discussion of individual items of special relevance. On the basis of 
those interviews and subsequent replays, some generally held ideas about 
areas of concern became apparent. A questionnaire was developed, based on 
those shared concerns, as a way for the entire school community to respond 
to those perceived problems. The questionnaire was distributed three 

- 10 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
weeks after the start of school and subsequently computerized and evaluated. 
This initial data was shared, discussed and evaluated by the entire school 
during a two-day feedback session in March during which formal classes 
were suspended. 

To get some sense of what happened to people the longer they re- 
mained at the school and to discover differing perceptions as a function 
of time within the system, the questionnaire was redistributed in late 
spring 1971. Similar data analyses were run and results compared. The 
papers main focus is the school as a social system, but the questionnaire 
data deals with individual attitudes. In interpreting the data, therefore 
I have drawn from my field work talks, observations and experiences to 
bridge the gap. 


The Bureau's guiding educational philosophy "encompasses the belief 
that all Indian children must have the opportunity to realize their full 
potential and to become useful members of society". It suggests that to 
facilitate ongoing and independent learning, teachers should have access 
to widespread and well organized materials and services. They should bend 
their energies toward developing attitudes of discovery, problem-solving, 
research and experimentation leading to creative and critical thinking. 

Yet in spite of such expectations, considerable differences exist 
in terms of what people at the school think is being learned. In response 
to the question "I use my abilities in my academic subjects" both students 
and teachers agree that the longer they stay in school the less likely they 

- 11 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 {Continued) 
are to use their abilities. Apparently something happens where both students 
and teachers stop learning. There is also strong agreement between students 
and staff members that as one stays at the school one finds that it is 
really too easy to get passing grades. Raising the interesting possibility 
that students and teachers may stop learning as a result of both their 
realizations that no matter what happens in the classroom everyone passes 
anyway, thus removing the impetus for students to work and teachers to 
teach. Related here too, is the fact that students in junior high grades 
feel that they are being well prepared for college but those who remain 
to become upper classmen begin to share the staff's perception that indeed 
they are being poorly prepared for college work (Table 1). 

When asked directly "students who come here really don't want to 
learn", we discover that students and staff members agree, more as time 
goes on, that students do not really come here wanting to learn. 

Do students who remain to become upper classmen not want to learn, or 

do the students fulfill institutional or staff expectations that they 

cannot learn. Or, are students poorly prepared for college because they 

do not use their abilities or because^the subjects are too easy? Merton, 

in proposing the idea of the "self-fulfilling prophecy" stated that in 

many situations, people tend to do what is expected of them. That 

phenomenon was recently vividly documented by Rosenthal and Jacobsen 

who showed that teacher expectation effects students performance. The 

teacher who assume that her/his students cannot learn discovers that she 

has a class of children who indeed are unable to learn; yet another teacher 

who makes the opposite assumption may discover she/he has a class of 

- 12 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

"I believe the students are being well prepared 
for college work . " 

Junior High 

% who agree or 
strongly agree 
with statement 





Academic Teaching Staff 
Vocational Teaching Staff 
Dormitory Staff 5 

% who disagree or 
strongly disagree 
with statement 







EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

interested learners. A similar process applies to other forms of behavior. 

And Charles Silberman in "Crisis in the Classroom" noted that "one 

cannot spend any substantial amount of time visiting ghetto schools, be 

they Black, Puerto Rican, Chicano or Indian, without being struck by the 

modesty of the expectations teachers, supervisors, principals and 

superintendents have for the students in their care." 

Using our own data to illustrate, is it possible that the students 
feel they do not come here to learn, because in spite of being at school 
their teachers do not believe they are being well prepared? Teachers who 
give passing grades easily, but at the same time do not believe the grades 
reflect the child's ability or preparedness, are really saying the grade 
is not worth much; it is not a reflection of what you do or ought to know. 
Doing well at the Indian school academically does not mean students will do 
well elsewhere. Indeed, it is the staff's expectation they they will not; 
the students know it, and they begin to believe themselves responsible for 
it. The school continues to have difficulty with dropout's, act-outs, and 
apathy because its students believe that it does not pay to achieve and 
do well in school. School holds a false promise: you can become all you 
want by learning, but no one believes you are learning. 

This phenomenon happens not only in terms of grades, but also by 
teachers who say things in front of students impugning their person and 
abilities. Students may perceive themselves as not wanting to learn as a 
result of having been put down as silly, incapable or unworthy. Indian 
students and staff see themselves insulted and put down twice. It is 
difficult to see oneself as a learner in a situation where those in 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

authority almost invariably are non-Indian make one feel worthless. 
Rather than rebel against such characterizations by powerful authorities 
one may say, "If they say so, it must be true," thus fulfilling 
institutional expectations. 

It becomes clear in many ways that students and 'teachers talk to 
each other but do not really hear one another. Eighty percent of the 
students say that they often say things in Indian to annoy the teacher but 
only 407. of the teachers perceive that it is happening at all. Students 
agree two to three times as often as staff (and more so as the year goes 
on) that teachers are too old and have been here too long to be good 
teachers. The teaching staff too begin to agree with that perception 
as the year goes on. It is not only students who fulfill teacher 
expectations, but the reverse as well. The evidence suggests that the 
concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy ought to be expanded. Students 
and teachers seem to collude to develop negative expectations of the other 
which each then proceed to fulfill. The result is that neither teachers 
nor students develop, both become estranged, do not use their full 
abilities and fail to grow and perform together. 

Indianness and Powerlessness 

All interviewees seemed to agree that whether one is or is not an 
Indian made a difference in terms of ones experience at the school. 

Although all people at the school agree that their respect for Indian 
heritage and tradition increases as a result of being there, it is difficult 
in some ways to translate such respectfulness into understandable 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

operational terms. It is the Indian student and staff member, as 
has been suggested, who hear, with far greater frequency, insulting 
things being said about Indian people. The saying of such things and 
the hearing of them increases as the school year goes on. 

Indian students and staff members agree about twice as much as the 
non-Indian staff (Table 2) that "it is impossible for a non-Indian to 
appreciate what it means to be an Indian". 

Most striking is the fact that it is the Indian staff, even more so 
than the students, who, as time passes in the school, perceive their 
Indianness as something which separates, distances, devalues, and puts 
them down. Because it is they who are most disenfranchised and power- 
less within the system. 

Much has already been written and said about the uninvolvement and 

powerlessness which students feel and experience in school settings. 

They are uninvolved in the one-way learning street, where teachers reveal 

the proper, orderly, laddered acquisition of facts in an unenthusiastic 

way. Less emphasis has been placed on school staffs who is many ways 

mirror such students feelings. In our school, it is the Indian staff 

member who perceives himself as the least able to change things, the least 

in control and the most disaffected (Table 3). 

It is the Indian staff member who changes most dramatically with time; 
the longer they remain at the school, the less likely they are to call 
themselves able to change things. They feel increasingly powerless 
(Table 4). 

The converse is true for non-Indian employees who as they spend more 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 














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time in the system see themselves more able to change things at the school. 

Such perceived powerlessness leads to disaffection. In response to a 
question which asked "if I could I would send my children to school here", 
the Indian staff members changed most dramatically as the year went on, 
from being more likely to do so at the beginning of school to the group 
lease likely to send their children here by the time school ends (Table 5). 
Similarly, it is the Indian staff who move most dramatically in terms of 
their involvement in the school (Table 6). 

From the group most personally involved, in the space of seven months, 
the Indian staff becomes least involved. 

Slightly more than half of the BIA's 160,000 employees are Indian. 
But most fill the lowest ranks (janitors, aides, drivers, laborers, 
secretaries); 807. of the better jobs are held by non-Indians. Even in non- 
professional areas, Indians for the most part are not in supervisory roles. 
As non-credentialed people, they are the ones most dependent upon the 
system. They have the fewest realistic options in terms of work elsewhere, 
should they choose to leave. Even students who may be ruled, restricted, 
and structured know that their time at the school will end. Indian staff 
members are a captive audience who because of the lack of proper 
credentials and thus salable skills stay indefinitely. And it is not the 
staying which is painful but rather the sense that in spite of staying 
nothing will change. In response to such a dilemma one becomes dis- 
affected, disenchanted, dissatisfied but rather than act out those feelings 
(which students sometimes do) Indian staff members tend to become 
apathetic and "unfeeling". There were a series of questions dealing with 

- 15 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

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EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
specific events at the school: whether people had ever seen such things 
and how they felt about them (e.g., have you ever seen a student hit a 
dorm staff member; have you ever seen a dorm staff person hit a student 
and then how does it make you feel). Invariably more people responded 
to how often they personally did or did not see such an event than to 
whether they had any feelings about it. I believe that to some extent all 
within the system choose not to feel about the things they might see because 
one learns it will not change anyway. One way to prevent the pain of 
sharing feelings which may then be ignored or punished is to keep them 
inside. The more one keeps them inside and does not discuss them, the 
more they slide out of ones personal awareness. A person without access 
to his own feelings is less of a human being, less able to be responsive 
to the needs of other people. If things are to change meainguflly at the 
school and in Indian education what needs to happen is a growing sense 
that what people think and feel will be listened to and make a difference 
in decisions that affect them. 


There have been reforms made in Indian education, yet the schools 
themselves remain far less effective than is desirable. 

The Bureau's educational goals emphasize a system where people share 
and grow. It wishes a setting wherein student and teacher share what one 
wants to know and the other wants to teach; where there is less submission 
to an obligatory curriculum and more available options; less emphasis on 
externally applied controls and more on individual responsibility for one's 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
own behavior. Yet simultaneously the boarding school invites those with 
"behavior problems which cannot be solved by families or existing facilities' 
and who can "benefit from the controlled environment of a boarding school". 
Can it do both? 

It is true that all schools share in common a preoccupation with order 
and control. And although they differ according to the communities they 
serve (the education of children's parents, their administrators and 
teachers, their wealth) these are differences in degree, not kind. The 
Indian boarding school does have an additional special problem in that 
its student population is highly selected. By accepting students for 
"social reasons" it implies that it, in some way, can deal with them. It 
has not, and because it has not, it demoralizes both teacher and student. 
In accepting the role as agent of social control, the school literally 
over-whelms its resources and leaves precious little time left over for 
scholarly endeavors. Being unable to deal with student acting out and 
dropping out, the staff begin to wonder what they are doing here, and 
eventually withdraw and simply survive day to day. 

In systems terms the school fails to define its primary task. Each 
subsystem operates as if they exist only to serve their individual ends. 
Their inability to articulate, to make their boundaries more permeable 
and together to more clearly define the primary task is expressed in 
frustration, powerlessness and ennui. 

Interestly, the school is being asked to deal with problems based on a 
hundred year history of paternalism and its concomitant tribal dependency. 
The more the school accepts the charge of dealing with "problem" children 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
the more it de-emphasizes the real need for it to be dealt with else- 
where - basically by parents and tribes. It is the people who can and 
must assume the power in determining their futures rather than abandon 
themselves into the hands of others. Since the system has traditionally 
forced and encouraged such behavior, it is difficult to do. But the more 
the school permits itself to be used as an institution for control the more 
it re-emphasizes and tacitly encourages the tribes not to deal with it. The 
giving of education, like health and welfare, destroys people by robbing 
them of their own sense of powerfulness and worth. It re-emphasizes the 
institutions ability to give and the peoples neediness in having to 

receive and thus re-creates a master-slave snydrome. It is a "counterfeit 

nurturance" in that by giving you are at the same time taking something 


This is clearly a long way from a simple discussion of Indian 
education. Yet if the concern is with education one cannot restrict 
observations to just schools. To study Indian education means to study 
Indian history and American society and to understand that the difficulty 
in the education of Indian children lies as much with a society which has 
degraded and disenfranchized Indian people for more than a century as with 
teachers, students, and schools. 

There are, of course, things we can begin to do, not as has been 
suggested to make boarding schools residential treatment centers, which 
is a sophisticated way of "blaming the victims", where we then see Indian 
students as disturbed rather than implicate the institutions responsible 
for his behavior. Nor is the ultimate answer, as" has also been preferred, 



EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 
to increase the numbers and the training of dormitory personnel. It alone 
fails to deal with the underlying problem of an impermeable stagnant 
school system. And it is therein, if a solution exists, that it must lie. 

Each subsystem must provide input into all decisions which mutually 
effect them. There must be a breakdown of the subsystem boundaries and 
their, till now, mutually antagonistic tasks. 

Students must be given the responsibility for providing input in 
their learning. The child, as Piaget has demonstrated, is the principle 
agent in his own education and mental development. This is not to suggest 
that the remainder of the system withdraw, rather that we can discuss 
and negotiate with students how much autonomy they want and can handle. 

All staff members need to share in the responsibility for making 
decisions which effect them. The special problem of Indian staff members 
and the issue of powerlessness needs to be addressed. Indian adults are, 
after all, a reflection of their total life experience, one which 
inculcates an enormous institutional dependency - "our" giving and telling 
and "their" needing, receiving and listening. As a result, Indian staff 
member who sense the possibility for improvement are the most dissatisfied 
and feel powerless to effect changes. For them the American dream of 
equality is a myth. Individuals do not become all they are capable of 
being; they become what others allow them to be. 

The Indian communities have an obligation to become aware of what to 
expect and demand for their children. Aware of all the educational 
possibilities for their children, which until now they have relinquished 
into the hands of others. To successfully permeate the school-community 



EXHIBIT XO. 8 (Continued) 
boundary we will need functional school boards who provide input into the 
renewal of all contracts, into curricula and fund utilization. 

Having now said this, let me add, that in the face of massive 
powerlessness and institutional entrenchment these solutions as they relate 
to existing boarding schools are trivial! For any significant change to 
occur in Indian boarding school education they should be phased out within 
the next five years. The schools are, from an educational viewpoint poorly 
effective and they are ineffective as agents and enforcers of social control. 
In fairness, I believe that many reservation parents will shudder at this 
suggestion. It hints again at the ugliness of the white man reneging on 
yet another promise. Their distaste will also be a tribute to an inculcated 
belief that only with this kind of education can they and their children 

The boarding school, by mere virtue of its existence, perpetuates 
these myths that they can educate and control better than parents and 
communities can. Most importantly by being available it removes the 
impetus for those issues to be dealt with directly by the tribes themselves. 

As a workable alternative consider the following briefest outline. 
For all within reach attendance in public schools. Those school are to 
have boards accurately reflective of student composition. Public school 
curricula ought to be supplemented with course material on Indian history, 
custom and the teaching of a tribal language. An on-going exchange between 
school staff and reservation people to deal with their differences and to 

- 20 


EXHIBIT XO. 8 (Continued) 
promote positive exchanges. Family scholarships to be provided to those 
needy, with achieving high school students in their households. 

For remote reservation areas we ought to consider mobile classrooms. 
House trailers with living and classroom accomodations could service small 
dusters of homes. Isolated ranches and homesteads could be serviced by 
mobile units whose operating radios would allow weekly visits and 
individualized instruction. Such a program could, I believe, be staffed 
by expanding the existing Teacher Corps and by allowing such service in 
lieu of military obligation. 

By defining education as the primary task with parents intimately 
involved at every level, we can then approach the special needs of that 
small percentage of Indian children who require residential treatment for 
serious emotional or delinquent problems. 

With community control of the education of Indian children will follow 
an extension of such responsibilities to other spheres of reservation life. 
From the limited contest of schools we can begin to minimize the rampant 
institutional dependence which pervades most tribes. 

21 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

1. Berry, Brewton. The Education of American Indians. U.S. Government 
Printing Office, Washington, 1969. 

2. Havighurst, Robert J., et. al. The National Study of American 
Indian Education. Vol. 2. Education of American Indians, Univ. 
of Chicago, 1970. 

3. Pratt, Richard Henry. Battlefield and Classroom. Robt. M. Otley, 
ed., Yale Univ. Press, New Haven, I964. 

4. Merriam, Lewis, et. al. Problem of Indian Administration. Johns 
Hopkins Press, Baltimore, I928. 

5. Peterson, Shailer A. How Well are Indian Children Educated? U.S. 
Dept. of the Interior, U.S. Indian Service, Washington, 1948. 

6. Anderson, Kenneth E., et. al. The Educational Achievement of 
Indian Children. U.S. Dept. of the Interior, Bureau of Indian 
Affairs, Washington, 1953. 

7. Coombs, L. Madison, et. al. The Indian Child Goes to School. U.S. 
Dept. of the Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Washington, 1958. 

8. McKinley, Francis, et. al. Who Should Control Indian Education? 
Far West Laboratory for Educational Research and Development, 
Berkeley, I969. 

9. Bennett, Robert. Hearings Before Senate Subcommittee on Indian 
Education. Washington, May 21, I969. 

10. Havighurst, Robert J. The National Study of American Indian 
Education. Vol. I-V. Univ. of Chicago, 1970. 

11. Newton, Peter M. and Levinson, Daniel J. The Work Group Within 
the Organization: The Inter penetration of Structure and Process. 
Unpublished paper. 

12. Miller, E.J. and Rice, A.K. Systems of Organization . Tavistock 
Publications, London, I967. 

13. Katz, Daniel and Kahn, Robert. The Social Psychology of Organi- 
zations . John Wiley and Sons, Inc. New York, I965. 


EXHIBIT NO. 8 (Continued) 

14. Rosenthal, Robert and Jacobsen, Lenore. Pygmalion in the Class- 
room. Holt, Rinehart and Winston, New York, I968. 

15. Silberman, Charles E. Crisis in the Classroom. Random House, 
New York, 1970. 

16. Kohl, Herbert. Thirty-Six Children. The New American Library, 

17. Friedenberg, Edgar F. Coming of Age in America. Random House, 
New York, I965. 

18. Kozol, Jonathan. Death at an Early Age. Houghton Miffein, I967. 

19. Illich, Ivan. De-Schooling Society. Harper, New York, 1971. 

20. Hammerschlag, Carl A. Pride, Powerlessness and Rebellion: The 
Red and the Black. Journal of Human Relations, Vol. 18, No. 1, 
Spring 1970. 



.embers of the Student Koalition of Indian Natives viciously attacked the Center For Indian 
Education at the Thirteenth Annual National Indian Education Conference in Tempe, on March 
17 i 1972. The S.K.I.N. members assaulted the Center before a packed house during a panel 
discussion that met to discuss the problems facing Indian university students in the South- 
west. "The Indian Education Center", stated the student panel, "is nothing more than a 
White program, run by Whites, educating Whites, for White people!" 

The Indian Education Center at ASU is a component of the Special Education Department. The 
Special Education Department is designed to train professionals for work with the mentally 
retarded, the emotionally disturbed, the disadvantaged student with learning disabilities, 
handicapped children and other less- fortunate drudges of society. This is not enough of a 
slap in the face. The director is non- Indian, the assistant director is a guy from Nebraska 
who "avoids" dealing with ASU students, and the graduate assistant is a White guy who never 
saw an Indian in his life before he got to ASU last autumn. He is supposed to be the student 
counselor, but no Indian student will utilize his services, perhaps, because he is completely 
inept in dealing realistically with Indian students. He sits in his office four hours a day 
taking up space, completely ineffective in accomplishing the objectives of his position. 
You talk of accountability? This entire program needs a thorough evaluation. It then needs 
housecleaning. A more realistic set of values, goals and objectives are in order. Then, a 
meaningful vehicle for accomplishing these new goals would bring about a more effective Ind- 
ian educational program. 

Excuses have been used to dismiss the inequities of this program. "The university will not 
allow such a reconstruction within the Indian Education Department" is a common rationalisa- 
tion. "The Director must have a Ph.D" is another. If the university wants to sponsor an 
Indian education program that is doing more harm to Indian people than good, then it's time 
for change, or get rid of it. If the university is steadfast in its insistence upon a Ph.D. 
to administer the Center, then they'll not have an Indian director for a long time, and the 
program will lack the personal feeling and empathy required for the success of this vital 
Indian program. Whatsmore, if this university was really concerned enough toward developing 
Indian leadership through higher education, they would make an effort to secure qualified 
(degreed) Indians to operate their Indian programs. After all, there are degreed Indians 
running around out there someplace. 

S.K.I.N. members and the A.S.U. Indian Advisory Board have the deepest personal respect for 
the director of the Indian Education Center. But he has got to realize that Indiana have got 
to start developing their own programs as well as operate the same. 


Irvin Coin, Asst. Director of the upward 
Bound Program for Indian students at ASU, 
recently announced tuat his program was now 
taking application for Tutot-Counselors. The 
Tutor-Counselor should be preferably Indian, 
have at least 60 credits toward his degree, 
male or shemale, maintain least a 2.00 grade 
point average, must reside in the dormitory 
during the summer session, must be able to 
qualify under the work-study program guide- 
lines, and cannot enroll for summer course 
work. The Upward Bound Tutor-Counselor will be 
responsible for personal counseling, as well 
group tutoring. For further information please 
contact Mr. Coin's office at 209 South Hall, 
call 965-2J71, or stop by his office to pick to 
up an application. 

"Trtt Ut>iM4 Seit-OoT* 

~Th* Mtolt yml/ty rulntd, btctum of hit dtnntct 
tttcaic Uantctt" 



EXHIBIT NO. 9 (Continued) 


The Indian Leadership Program at A.S.U. , funded by the Indian Desk of the Office of Econ- 
omic Opportunity in Washington D.C., is the biggest Indian rip-off that has ever been perpe- 
trated at Arizona State University. The program was one of four that directed exhorbitant 
amounts of monies into schools at Harvard, Perm State, University of Minnesota, and Arizona 
State University. The O.E.O. guidelines of the proposal stated that the funds were to be 
used strictly to train Indian graduate students for school administrative positions in Ind- 
ian schools. This program, instituted by Dr. Jim Wilson, then-Director of the Indian Desk 
of O.E.O. in Washington D.C, was the greatest educational program for Indians that has ever 
been created. Harvard, Perm State and Minnesota developed beautiful Indian Educational Ad- 
ministration Programs for their students. Arizona State University didn't! Arizona State's 
5122,666.00 share of the proposal was "mysteriously" channeled into Elementary Education. 
Dr. Donald O'Beirne from the Elementary Education Department, became the director of ASU's 
program. It seems that Dr. Jim Wilson received hie doctorate in Elementary Education here, 
and Dr. Donald O'Beirne was the chairman of his doctoral committee at ASU. 

It doesn't take a second-grader to add two and two. 

Recruited Indian students were lured to ASU into this program on the belief that they 
would be training for school administration positions. When they got here, they found out 
they were going to get Master's degrees in Elementary Education. Just what they needed!!! 
Elementary teachers come a dime-a-dozen. Indian school administrators can't be found on this 

Finally, the Indian students protested. They signed a petition calling for an investiga- 
tion. Several blonde "Indian" students didn't sign the petition. O'Beirne rewarded them for 
selling-out by giving them the advanced doctoral fellowships in Elementary Education. One 
doctoral student is Just now returning from Europe, studying on "Indian" monies. Two students 
in this program, Bob Carnahan and Clayton McDowell, had no Indian blood whatsoever. An in- 
vestigative team came in from Washington D.C., but Dean of Education Del Weber conveniently 
slipped out "on vacation" for several weeks. The protest was quelled, smoothed over, and 
nobody heard of it since. 


1. The university says "We want more Indians in our school." 

2. The university then witnesses a drawback of funds from Washington D.C. that 
seriously limits the ability of ASU's Upward Bound Program to recruit Navajo 

The cut-back has grieviously injured the Indian division of the Upward Bound Program 
by limiting ASU's radius recruitment boundary to 75 miles, wiping out participation 
from the Navajo Reservation, the Papa^o Reservation, the Apaches, the Northwestern 
tribes of Arizona and others. It would be fun to attack the university as being 
responsible for this move, but I won't. Washington D.C. (Tricky Dick) is responsible 
for this cut, but what has ASU done to protest? Nothing. 

Therefore, one of the greatest assets to the recruitment and orientation of Indian 
students at ASU has been critically wounded. Instead of attributing future Indian 
student growth to the ASU Upward Bound Program, we can point an accusing finger to 
them for crippling Indian growth. But let's not give up on them, let's get behind 
Irving Coin, Hopi Assistant Director of the Indian division of the Upward Bound, 
and help make the best of what we now have. Then, next fall, let's do something to 
increase the radius of recruitment back to should be. 


EXHIBIT NO. 9 (Continued) 


Arizona State University 

Vol. M, No. 102 May WWW 


Indian attacks Universitiy 
claims institutional racish 

Rick St. Germain* 
".SU does not give Indians fair 
•atoent, according to the 
airman of toe Indian Ad- 
iory Board. 

Rick St. Germalne aald 
sterday Indiana In Arizona 
■re admired across the 
jntry from an economic, 
'ritual and traditional 

"But of the eight Indian 
i;rams at the University 
signed to Implement Indian 
"Airship In Arlxona, only one 
ilan has been employed," be 
Id. . 

Tola la one example of bow 
s school Is promoting ln- 

.utional redsm. It doesn't 

JJcfax the fact that Indians 
j on this campus." 

ja Indian Education Center, 
crating oat of the special 
licatlon department, la 

designed to train teachers for 
Indian children. St Germalne 
aald 19 per cent of those enrolled 
were non-Indian. 

"They're employing one 
token Indian as the assistant 
director and he Is from the 
East," he said. "There are a 
number of qualified people with 
doctorates and masters 
degrees, Indians who could take 
over these p rogr am s." 

The newly farmed ASU Indian 
Advisory Board Is taking steps 
to advise the University, In 
areas of the development, 
operation and expansion of 
fl s a jsj sj ffr v t ^ programs. 

"We want a voice In deter- 
mining how our programs are 
run, we want a voice In deter- 
mining who is directing and 
staffing oar programs," aald St 
Germalne, chairman of the 

St Germalne, a Chippewa 
Indian from Wisconsin working 
on his doctorate in school ad- 
ministration, said Indians In the 
Southwest, especially in 
Arlxona, are "far behind the 
times as far as taking the 
initiative to taking control of 
their own political destiny." 

Money for an Indian 
leadership program, funded 
through the Office of Equal 
Opportunity In Washington over 
one year ago, was 
'"mysteriously «*«i»~i»<« Into - 

elementary education," St. 
Germalne said. 

that the federal proposal 
specifically stated the money be 
used In school administration 

Between March S and IS 
members of the Student 
Koalltion of Indian Natives 
(SKIN) registered 1,300 persona 
calling for a recognition of the 
Indian Advisory Board and an 
Investigation of University 
programs pf+* <,rin g >A tnHt«« 
A series of meetings with 
University President John Scb- 
wada and George Hamm. vice 
president of Student Affairs 

vera set to present the 

Hamm recognised the board 
March 30. 

In a recent election J00 
University Indian students 
chose St Germalne as chair- 
man of the board. 

Board members Include 
Loyce Phoenix, BUI t>llsai. 
Gabe Sharp, Richard Palmer, 
Will Dalton and Homer Hubbell. 

In the past two weeks the 
board has started a recrultzDent 
program In the high schools,. 
sod is pnMaMpa, brochures 
shoot Its goals. The hoard win 
work with incoming Indians 
during summer orientation. 
They will sponsor a slide 
presantitlon ami fflim ami bar* 

to lure a director for 

Indian Affairs on a paxtOjM 
basis. Be will serve as 
executive director to the ASU 

wOssal Advisory Board. 

SKIN will sponsor an span 
conference on "Tribal 
Education Coordinators" May 
17, from t ajn.-J pjn. In the 

"We're had gnat success 
with the president's office and 
Dean Hamm's office. We're 
very pleased with the 
developments taking place In 
the last two weeks. The future 
looks bright," said St Oer- 


EXHIBIT NO. 9 (Continued) 


Arizona State Wiiversity 

Vel. J5. No II S«p1»mb«r 11, IfTl 

ASU ignores Indians, 
ISA chairman says 


The Indian Student Association haa charged the Uiuveratty 
win ■ lack at concern far the nwdi at Indian students an 
aaaopu* and In Artasna. 

Rick 81 Oermalnt, chairman of the anode Hon, alio aald 
the University baa little regard (or Indian students and la not 

SL Germaine ehar|ea the University haa a doaad door 

agnations policy (or Indian student*. He amid the University 
ass a seven-tenths at one per cent Indian popoiaUo n while 
Arbwia haa a ati par cant Indian population. 

Recruitment haa been a problem, St Oannalaa said. 
Persons who should be recruiting ere doing e poor lob, he said. 

SL Ganaalne said Indian education la primarily for 
propaganda. He aald the program la advartiaad aa training 
Indians in educadon to go back to the reservation to teach. 

"But last year, almost nine outof 10 students In the program 
were non-Indian," he said This Is against the federal policy of 
Indian sen-determination, he aald. 

The tact that the Indian students of ASU nave completely 
hr u a ui off from them (center for Indian EoiK»ow), n e nfS ] nrtn g 
the* patamaktnc and indoctriniatic plots, haa not affected thatr 
direction." he added. 

"They have consistently Mred non-Indian students as 
graduate assistants and eubasauently assigned these itadeots 
as counselors of u nder g t ad nata Indian students who an ex- 
periencing difficulty," said St. Germaine which keeps non- 
Indians in control of programs that should be controlled by 

St Germaine said the Indians have been granted an Indian 
Affairs Board but the University has not listened to IL 

The Indian board has taken its esse to the Special Services 
Advisory Board, he said, and the special services board sym- 
pathises with Indian problems, but the board's hands are bed. 

The Educational Opportunities Program (EOP) and other 
organkatiorj Just pit one minority against the other, he said. 
Thai no group benefits from the program. 

"This University la not committed to the needs of the In- 
dians In this state," he said. 

"ASU Is promoting the White Father myth," St. Germaine 
aald. The white man has always fell superior to the Indians and 
bat tried to control hb destiny, he said. 

According to St. Germaine, the ASU administration baa 
the IndUru many things, bat In the American 
i has net kept any of those pt umieea . 


Ttmse. AtIum 



Rick St. Germaine 

Photo by Rick Glass 

St. Germaine said Dean George Hamm, vice president of 
student affairs, promised Mm sn Indian Affairs director, bat the 
Indian students only got a coordinator. 

Bill DeHaas, an Indian recommended by SL Germaine and 
his committee to be Indian Affairs director, was hired M time 
over the summer. He was to report to Dr. Lain Shell, associate 
dean of student affairs, with recommendations to Improve In- 
dian problems on campus. 

The following recommend* Sons were mads: 

-line up niton and counselors for Indian students. This 
would mean getting upper-level Indian students to tutor un- 
dergraduate Indians; 

—Another full time Indian In the student affairs office, 
hopefully dealing with financial aids; 

—More Indian students, to be accomplished by mora 
sgresslve recruitment; 

—Plug more Indian students Into orientation programs. 

Tetaerrtv: Ike adtthastrarlsa answers the batata B est i a l 
Assectausa rkarges. 


EXHIBIT NO. 9 (Continued) 



Thursday, September 28 — Page » 


Indiant ftflcounter 
University snafu 


Ifi too bed that Dean Leon 
Shell iu assigned the duty of 
answering Indian charges 
leveled against the university 
admliustrstion, tines they were 
directed it George Himm, but 

day that Hamm works In that 
sort of manner. 

Shall wasn't present at 
meetings between " w|m and 
mecoben of our Indian Student 
Association laat spring aad 

If be had, he would have 
listened to Hamm promise ASU 
Indian students an Indian Af- 
fairs Director, an rrnparrthle 
recruitment program run by 
Indians, an Indian canter, and 
his philosophy of total com- 
mitment to the Indiana of this 

cannot deny these 
i unless he's willing to 
the testimony of three 
■ Indian witnesses 

Shell cannot take credit, nor 
can anyone In the Student Af • 
ttfk Office, for the Initiation 
ani development of Indian 
prearanis over the euininer. 

S JC.I.N. end I.S.A. members 
ace responsible for this work 
and can attribute to the work 
that was made toward working 
out a recruitment program, the 
Indian Advisory Board, 

'Hi i 


>H '» 


financial aids personnel, public 
relations Information for ASU 
Indian students, and Indian 
survival course and many other 

It Is also Interesting why 
Indian students on this campus 
first had to picket, demonstrate 
and petition, before the 
university made any attempt to 
remedy medieval situations 
that existed In regard to Its 
relations with Skins. 

Dr. SundwaUL Anglo director 
of the Center for Indian 
Education, la all the more In- 
credible for his alibi statements 
made In the Sept. J3 Issue of the 
State Press. 

Only in Arixona can a White 
man get away with saying that 
••Indian people don't want all 
Indian teachers." If be says It 
long and loud enough, they'll 
make him the director of an 
education program for Indians. 

Sundwall, too, thinks that the 
federal policy of Indian self- 
determination only applies to 

Indian students going to BIA 

And again, he suites that 
Indians do not return to their 
reservations. What he refuses to 
realize Is that thousands upon 
thousands of Indians are getting 
educated today and are doing 
Just that — returning home to 
help their people. 

And many are going to the 
cities to help their people who 
live there. And someday soon, 
one will rightfully take his Job, 
and make Improvement in 
the horrible situation at ASU. 

The State Press didn't cover 
the story concerning the 
misappropriation of Indian 
funds In the amount of over 
fU2,000 that were earmarked 
for Indians In graduate school of 
educational administration. 

Why did Donald O'Beirne and 
Robert Strom direct these funds 
Into their elementary education 
program, set up a little power 
structure for themselves and 
then subjugate Indian students 

Into selling out their own 

The answer to this question 
should be a real Issue on this 
campus today. 

This university should 
examine what they have done to 
their Indian students In the 

They should refrain from 
promoting their White Father 
and paternalistic roles and turn 
over Indian programs to Indian 
leadership. Arizona universities 
are decades behind other 
schools and moving backwards. 

Then It still remains to be. 
seen what Hamm will do next 
Will he open up token positions 
for Indians, write It off In his 
federal reports, and continue 
side tracking our pleas? 

Will he meet with me and 
listen, this time? Or will we 
have to go after him again In 
another couple months? 

Rlck St. Germalne 

Graduate Stadeat 

School Administration 




At the Student Counseling 
Service a staff of counseling 
psychologists assist students in 
areas of educational and 
vocational pi«w*ing evaluation 
of long-term goals, un- 
derstanding of salt and 
relationships with others. All 
sessions are confldenual. 

Services Include: 

—Individual counseling 

-group counseling 

-pyschological and vocational 

—occupational library. 

For further information con- 
tact Dr. I. T. Cummlnaa, 
director, In WDson Ball UMlal. 

or. CTeorje "2O00-in-5-y«*urs* Mean 

Vic* Preaident tor Student Affairs 


EXHIBIT XO. 9 {Continued) 


*/ma State University 



Dr Leon Shell, associate dean 
of student affairs, denied 
charges by the Indian StudenU 
Association that A.SU's ad- 
ministration ignores Indiana 

"We've been very much 
aware of the Indian students at 
ASU." he said 

Chairman of tbt association. 
Rick St. Gennaine. has charged 
tkat the University is Ml 
eacsmltted to betpsjut the ladtan 
stadeats m campus or la 

Shall cud the University is 
doing many things to hrfp In- 
dus studenU. but "we atlO 
aren't doing enough We have a 
way ta go, but there surely have 
been efforts made in many 

As infarmaUoa-galherlaf, 
absdy u being conducted by the 
Student Affairs office. Shell 
said The Purpose of the study U 
to And a wry to coordinate all 
Uh Indus pr<«rams on campus 
to prevent overtop and slap-up 

mi in i n iiin ppjwi 

Back " grasp pria— try 
ntpoaslMe far ladsan 
pregrems waold remain 
riaji— 'hit, ha (aid. but tbt 
programs would W coor- 
dtoeud. wadded af f 
as UVy are »ow 

St. GemsHx charged mat 
fbe University baa a cloaad-door 
policy towards admitting In- 
dians According to figures 
from last rear only seveo-Ualhs 
of one per cant of the University 

adm tenons, said there m 
definitely no clnaaa annr ad- 
missions poocy at ASU. "We 
don't know whs a student Is 
when be applies," he said. 

"AD studenU I 
e<jually We have no quotas. pa> 
no altentlon to tbt high school 
they graduated from or their 
ethnic origin." Norton said. 

The only reason Morton could 
give for tbt low percentage of 
Indian studenU was that they do 
not aontv 

Low par can f aoa 

SbeD tald be would be in* first 
to admit the low parentage of 
todUn studenU at ASU He said 
the keys to kw a e as ed Indian 
enrollment war* Increased 
financial aid* and better 
recruitment programs. 

Over tha summer. Bill 
DeHass. an Indian recom- 
mended by tbt Indian 
asnoctaUon, was hired full time 
to matt rtcoenmendatjons to 
the Stawent Affab-t office Shell 
aald miiy of DeHass' 

DtHass said there waa a aaed 
for Indian Mara and coun- 
selors .Shell aald upper -level 

Another rrcommeadation 
was to add a full time Indum 
staff member to the Student 
Affairs office. Shell amid a new 
larkan staff member will be 
added la his office In the seat 
few vceks 

St. Germain* also charged 
(■rorgr lljmm, deaa of 
student- vuih promising the 
Indian- a lirrctor of Indian 
affairs llamm said SI. Gar- 
mjune wan told there would not 
he a direct ir of any ethnic 
group un campus 

The Indians were given an 
Indian Advisory Board flAKi 

University President John 
Sdiwada said, in a letter to St. 
tfennaine. that I AH would be 

providing a vehicle for ex- 
pression on the part of the 
University's Indian studenU 
regarding their educational, 
jodal and financial needs.' 

St (lernuune said the board 
has not lived up to expectations 
yet, because the University will 
not listen lu the board 

St Cieniiaine also charged 
the Center for Indian Education 
with false advertising and 

ASU Indians 
not Ignored, 
dean says • 

Dean denies 

Rick St. Gormaine 
Dr. Harry W. Sundwalf 
director of the center, said the 
center was never set up to be 
.ill-Indian as St. f'.ermatne 
apparently thinks it should be. 
The program is designed to 
train teachers in educating 
Indians, with special emphasis 
on Indian history and culture, 
and has been that way for It 
years, he said! 

"Indian people don't want all 

Indian teachers, lie said. 
About 16 per cent of the studenU 
in the center's program are non- 

Sundwal) said white teachers 
are not against federal setf- 
determinallon policies because 
the policy only applies to 
bureau et Indian Affairs tBIAi 
arhoob. Meal Indian, da not 
attend MA schools sn they do 
not fall under federal policy, he 

Many Indian studenU do nut 
return to the reservation to 
touch. Sundwall said Once they 
gel their education, they go to 
targe dues where the money is. 

St. Gcrmalne called such 
Intians Uncle Tomnawka." 
"We do have, as all groups do, 
those Indians more Interested In 
money than their own people," 
he said 

Indian studenU are helped In 
many areas. Shell said. He 
mentioned Indian students 
receiving financial aids, a 
graduate program in social 
services administration with 
grants ear -marked for Indians. 
and other campus programs 
available to all minority 








Submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements 

for Research Methods in Education EF-500 

in the College of Education 

Arizona State University 

Summer Session 1972 



EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 






Questionnaire 12 


Tables 16 

Charts 19 





EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 


Social and academic adjustment to university and urban 
life looms as a detriment to post-high school educational success 
for Indian students in Arizona. The development of a program 
entitled "Indian Survival In a Non-Indian World", designed to 
combat the novelty of university living and create familiarity 
with afore-threatening experiences, would be a conversant task 
to the professional curriculum designer, and one readily assumed 
by parties with vested interests. The problem is one of determim- 
ing the most feasible content of this adjustment-orientation 
course for Indian students. 

Tbe purpose of the study was to build upon ideas for a class- 
room model through the acquisition of concepts developed by three 
groups of students at Arizona State University. 

The hypotheses underlying this study werei 

1 . The Indian student group would request a greater per- 
centage of cultural awareness and self-concept development 
content than the other non-Indian groups. 

2. The non-Indian student groups would make a greater per- 
of requests for a "Whiteman's education" than the Indian 
groups . 

3. The Indian student group would make a greater percentage 
of requests for an Indian instructor of the course than the 
non-Indian groups. 

Some definitions for certain terms are offered belowi 
1. Indian student- as recognized by the Bureau of Indian 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 

Affairs, any person of J degree or more Indian ancestry, 
duly enrolled in an accredited university or college. 
2. Whiteman's Education- as commonly referred to by reservation 
Indians, the dominant content of studies prevailent in 
American public school. 

The need for the study has arisen from the increasing en- 
rollment of Indian students at Arizona State University, the majority 
of which are ill-equipped to meet the demands of rigorous ed- 
ucational challenges, subsequently failing in their attempts to 
secure higher educational goals. 


1 . The small proportion of sampling of Indian students in 
comparison to the non-Indian contingent. A larger number of Indian 
students questioned would have increased the validity of this study. 

2. Because of the nature of the questionnaire, the researcher's 
analysis of the answers to the questions became a matter of question 
in several instances. Objectivity in analyzing material became 

a difficult task on several occassions. 

3. Compiling Group I and Group II together as a basis of compari- 
son to Group III, when they differed significantly in maturity 
and experience. 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 


While some Indian leaders have become intent upon locking 
themselves into struggles with educational policy-makers and 
the public over the fact that Indian people are not receiving the 
educational opportunities due them according to federal treaties, 
laws and constitutions, their attention is being drawn away 
from the most crucial of shortages in America, the quality of 
education that an Indian child receives, or better yet, the in- 
sufficient attempt to ready the ethnical minority student once 
he attains collegiate status. (5»^) For it is the greatest of 
short-comings, according to McKinley, when Indian children *r*i- 
mot' given the allowance of adjustment to a foreign culture with- 
in the schools. (10il4) Cuban also testifies in a Phi Delta 
Kappan that "when minority children are thrown into a sea of 
White instructional information, they will not come out cleansed 
of self -hate and sparkling with ethnic consciousness. They will 
drown." (4i27l) He continues, in point, that preparedness 
for cultural understanding rests with the sensativity of teachers. 

When Cuban falls short in pointing out the specific failings 
of our educational systems at the higher education levels, Green 
indicts the public schools for neglect in "providing minority 
and poor children with the knowledge and skills they need to earn 
a decent living and to plarticipate in the social, educational and 
political life of the community," (6 i 27*0 Where Green overlooks 
the adjustment process necessary for the accomplishment of know- 
ledge and skills in learning, Artichoker suggests that, whereas 
the normal counseling and guidance program in a non-Indian setting 


EXHIBIT XO. 10 (Continued) 

is designed only to supplement the information and guidance of 
parents and friends, the counseling and guidance program for 
Indians must be the core of the entire process of selection and 
attainment of educational and vocational goals. (5>30) "The 
Indian arrives at the college with a short background in academic 
preparation" , according to an article written by Ludeman for 
The Journal of Educational Sociology . While he recognizes the 
lack of preparation for college life, however, he fails to bring 
about a realistic approach to the solution to this problem with- 
in his study. (9i335) 

In this context, Quimby attempted to ascertain and analyse 
select cultural, social, economic, and academic problems faced 
by American Indian students as they pursued their college careers 
in the state of Arizona. (l4i2) His pursuits at providing in- 
stitutions of higher education with an authentic source of in- 
formation that would help plan orientation programs and improved 
guidance and counseling services for American Indian students 
are sorely needed. Based upon studies gathered from successful 
and non-successful Indian college students, Quimby concluded 
his study with an appeal to college officials to learn the 
problems faced by Indian students and "supply the services, 
guidance, and other necessary means to enable them to 
successfully help themselves." (I4il27) 

Quillen, too, views the problems of adjustment as a complex 
conglomeration of items, centering in such areas as "the cultural 
rold and objectives of education, the organization and administration 
of the school, the content of education, methods of teaching 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 

and learning, the evaluation and guidance of the student, and 
public relations and the provision of adequate financial support." 

Nix identified the problem in his doctoral dissertation when 
he quoted James Officer from a report entitled Indians In School . 
"There is always a problem of social adjustment for the student 
who changes from a federal high school to one where the enrollment 
is predominantly non-Indians and values are definitely middle 
class," Officer found that many Indian students leave college 
prior to completion because they fail to make this adjustment. 
Furthermore, hi* suggestion that colleges and universities main- 
tain a similar counseling service to that provided for foreign 
students as a deterent to high drop-out rates, due to problems 
of social adjustment and English comprehension, produced lauds 
from Nix. (12i?l-72) 

The militant-activist Indians of North America, and their 
allies, of course, have resounded the pleas for a greater quality 
of education, particularly in preparing young Indian students 
to meet the challenges of an unfamiliar, foreign type of life 
associated with the university community. 

"Indians who move off the land and into the cities are apt 
to become losers. In fact, the first thing an Indian learns 
is that he is a loser", retorted Senator Walter Mondale to a 
Time correspondent in 1970 (lil9) In the same article, Time 
magazine reported responses made by several Indians in regard 
to attempts at trying urban life. "I was unhappy there. It was 
too fast. There was noise, fumes, confusion-the Whiteman's 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 

problems. In the city you lose your contact and feeling for 

the land. You become isolated", according to Donna Flood. 

"The people live like foreigners - unfriendly, clannish. The 

bars were the only place to get acquainted and unwind" , spouted 

a Cherokee. (Ii20) 

Problems of failure were noted by Cahn in Our Brother's Keepen 

"If the Indian child fails, it is because he is Indian. 
Failure is expected, and the expectation becomes self- 
fulfilling. Educators hope to overcome the Indian child^s 
cultural deprivation, buttthey really don't expect to 
succeed. Most schools are prepared to pass every Indian 
student (what they call social promotions) regardless of 
his performance". (3i^3) 
Along the same lines, Senator Edward Kennedy noted in al970 

edition of Look magazine i It is clear that the Indian is being 

shortchanged. It is clear that the American Indian has the cards 

stacked against him. And it is clear as well that the BIA isn't 

doing much to help." (8136) 

In Edmonton, the Indian Association of Alberta has devised 
a curriculum for its existing schools, as well as created plans 
for the development of total Indian control of its own education. 
As explained in the "Montreal Star" by Boyce Richardson, Associate 
Editor 1 "Thousands of native parents feel the integration system 
is failing their children. They are being shoved, ill-prepared, 
into a social and cultural atmosphere totally alien to everything 
they have known." (15il7) 

Ex-NIYC President, William Pensoneau, sees the adjustment 
problem further agitated by the fact that young Indian people 
"are spoonfed platitudes about life". Furthermore, "whatever 
the young Indian may learn at home he is told to forget when he 
gets to the non-Indian-administereed school". " I call that 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 

negative socializing, where they teach the young to negate and 
reject everything they are taught at home". (7»19) 

Therefore, the diversity of Indian-oriented resource people 
agree, like Mooney, that grave problems exist among entering 
Indian college students with regard to inadequate training for 
college life, insufficient economic training, inability to 
relate to the dominant culture, and even (sometimes) religious 
and moral problems. ( 11 • 52056) Educators such as Quimby and 
Officer have called on collegiate officials to train themselves 
for the unique problems facing Indian students, provide the 
services necessary for success, and maintain orientatinnal- 
adjustment programs that will facilitate preparedness in the 
cultural realm. (1^1127) (12 i 71-72) But the question still re- 
mains unanswered in respect to what types of programs are required 
at Arizona State University during the decade of the 70 's to 
meet the challenge. 



EXHIBIT XO. 10 (Continued) 


In order to test the hypotheses that Indian students, from 
non-Indian students, requests for content in the "Indian Survival - 
In the Non-Indian Worldi course, a one-page questionnaire was 
presented to three groups of students, requesting them to complete 
five questions that were designed to solicit ideas for the develop- 
ment of the curricular content of the Indian Survival Course. 
The questionnaire delved into learning experiences, course content, 
philosophy of Indian education, practical applications for the 
course, and leadership for the position. It was used as a device 
to extract personal feelings from respondents about Indians as a 
basis >f6r constructing the content. 

The three groups sampled were representative of i 1 ) non- 
Indian graduate students, 2) non-Indian undergraduates, and 3) 
Indian graduate and undergraduate students. Group I (non-Indian 
graduate students) were presented with questionnaires in a class 
situation, briefed concisely, and returned the forms the following 
day. Group II (non-Indian undergraduates) were presented with 
questionnaires in a class situation, briefed consicely, and some 
returned the forms the following day. Group III (Indian under- 
graduates and graduates) were presented questionnaires! l) at 
an Indian meeting, 2)in a class situation, and, 3) "on the street". 
They were given brief and concise explanations. 

The data was analyzed according to number of responses from 
the three groups to the five questions. Percentages of any given 
similar response were used as a basis of comparison on charts. 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 


Seeing, in some cases, as the data was highly subjective, 
analysis of the information was made quite cautiously. 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 
Age 12 


Educational Level Teaching Experience ( Years ) 

Suppose you were planning to enroll In a three hour accredited course entitled 
"Indian Survival In A Hon-Indian World". 

What type of experiences (within the course) would you expect or anticipate? 
(please be specific) 

With what would the course content be composed? 

What are some important items necessary for Indian survival in a non-Indian 


What are important aspects of life that an Indian child should obtain in order to 
realize his potential, make adequate decisions concerning his life and successfully 
assist his people toward unity and peace? 

In your estimation, who should teach this course? 

Check hern if you are an Ind-'an_ 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 



The findings of this study revealed a significant difference 
between the non-Indian and Indian groups in regard to requests 
for curricular content in cultural awareness and self-concept 
development areas. The Indian group, as shown in Table III, items 
B, C, D, and Table II, items D, £, made 50 requests from a possible 
75 (.667 percentage basis) for thses development areas. The two 
non-Indian groups, as shown, in the Tables, made 79 requests from 
a possible 210 (.376 percentage basis) for the same developmental 
areas . 

The findings also revealed that the non-Indian groups did 
not make a greater percentage of requests for a "whiteman's 
education" than the Indian group, thereby refuting the second 
hypothesis. The Indian group, as shown in Table II, items B, C, 
and Table III, items A, G, H, actually placed great emphasis upon 
the worth of a "Whiteman's education" making 39 from a possible 
75 requests (.520 percentage basis), while the two non-Indian 
groups, as shown in the same Tables, made 83 of a, possible 210 
requests (.395 percentage basis) for the "Whiteman's education". 

Also, the findings revealed a significant difference between 
the non-Indian and Indian groups in regard to requests for Indian 
instruction of the course. The Indian group, as shown in Table 
IV, item A, made 11 from a possible 15 requests (.734 percentage 
rate) for a Native American instructor, while the two non-Indian 
groups, as shown by the same table, made 42 requests (.247 per- 
centage basis) for the Indian instructor. In addition to this, 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 


the non-Indian groups requested existing non-Indian academic de- 
partments or anyone who is competent, as shown by Table IV, items 
B, D, 15 from a possible 8k times (.179 percentage rate) to provide 
instruction for the course, while the Indian group, as shown by 
the same Table, made 1 of a possible 30 requearts (.030 percentage 
basis) for the same source of instruction. 

In general, the Indian group ranked group discussions of 
current Indian problems and utilization of speakers and other re- 
source people, high. Training for awareness of the dominant Anglo 
culture was even valued greater than discussion of current Indian 
problems in Table II. However, appreciation of Indian heritage and 
culture development of pride and self -concept, and promotion of a 
sense of worth as an individual and member of a society drew the 
greatest amount of attention from the Indian group. 

The non-Indian undergraduate group emphasized interest in 
discussion of Indian problems, the use of resource people, and 
visitations to reservations and other Indian Communities. In Table 
II, they consistently ranked behind the other two groups in the 
areas of discussion of Indian problems, awareness of the dominant 
Anglo culture, Indian education and Indian politics. In Table IV, 
they failed to point out career education, vocational training and 
employment security as necessary items for Indian survival. They 
recognized the worth of the appreciation of Indian heritage, self- 
concept development, and pride as necessary items for Indian survival, 
yet to a much lesser extent than the other two groups. 

The non-Indian graduate group recognized group discussions of 
Indian problems, the use of resource people and field trips to 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 


resources a greater percentage of the time than the undergraduate 
group, but to a lesser extent than the Indian group. They con- 
sistently valued Indian history, culture, language and heritage 
as shown by the number of requests, moreso than the undergraduate 
group, but again, to a lesser extent than the Indian group. In 
the area of training for dress and shelter, vocational training, 
career education, and economic security through employment, the 
graduate group placed a greater amount of emphasis upon, 
than the other two groups. 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 


Table 1. Comparisons of answers to the questioni what type of exper- 
iences would you expect or anticipate within the course? 

•interpretation of groups i group I represents 24 non-Indian graduate 
students polledi group II represents 18 non-Indian undergraduate 
students polledi group III represents 15 Indian graduate & undergrad- 
uate students polled. All groups were polled at random. 

Group I Group II Group III 

A. instructional media 
(films, TV, aids) 

B. speakers & resource people 

C. group discussion of problems 

D. field trips to resources 

E. visit reservations 














.333 .000 

Table 2. Comparisons of answers to the questioni with what would the 
course content be composed? 

Group I Group II Group III 

A. current Indian problems 

B. awareness of dominant Anglo 
culture & societal changes 

C. personal budgets, checking 
accts, taxes, etc. 

D. Indian history, culture & 

E. Indian education 

F. Indian politics 

G. training for dress & shelter 


















EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 


Table 3. Comparisons of answers to the questioni what are some 
important items necessary for Indian survival in a non-Indian envir- 
onment, as well as aspects of life that should be obtained? 

Group I Group II Group III 

A. obtain an education in .750 .445 .867 
the White world 18 ~8" 13 

B. Indian language & culture .292 .389 .468 

7 7 7 

C. self -concept, pride & .458 .278 1.000 

sense of worth 11 5 l3~ 

D. appreciation of Indian .417 .278 .800 
heritage & culture 10 5 12" 

E. responsibility to his people .168 .056 .600 

~4~~ 1 9 

F. knowledge of environment .042 .056 .400 

1 1 ~6* 

G. adequate living, jobs & .292 .056 .067 
self-supporting 7 1 1 

H. career education(vocational .292 . 000 .267 

training) 7 4 

I. solidarity and unity .209 .000 .200 

5 3 

J. religious beliefs .000 .165 .200 

3 3 

K. socialize with others .250 .056 .267 

(including non-Indians) 6 1 4 

L. don't condemn the Whiteman .250 .000 .000 


M. communications & human .126 .000 .133 

relations 3 2 

N. educate the Whiteman .083 .056 

2 1 


0. politics .083 .000 .133 

2 2 

P. not sure, no answer .126 .389 .000 

3 7 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 


Table k. Comparisons of answers to the question i who should teach 
this survival course? 

Group I Group II Group III 

A. a competent Indian .375 .^5 .73^ 

B. anyone who is competent .292 .222 .067 

7 4 1 

C. a team (at least one Indian & .209 .111 .133 
one Anglo) 5 2 2 

D. existing university departments .083 .111 .000 
(ie. psychology, sociology) 2 2 

E. also resource people .126 .000 .200 

3 3 

.000 .111 .067 

~0~ ~2~~ 1 

F. no answer 

90 - 
80 - 
70 - 
60 - 
50 - 
ko - 
30 - 
20 - 
10 - 



EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 


Fig. 1. Percentage of answers to the questioni what type of 
experiences would you expect or anticipate within the course? 

non-Indian graduate students (24) 
■non-Indian undergraduates (18) 
•Indian graduate & undergraduates (15) 

item "B" - invited speakers and resource people. 

item ""O" - group discussions of problems. 

item "D" - field trips to resources in the city. 

item "E" - visit reservations and rural Indian communities. 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 

100# - 

90 - 

80 - 

70 - 

50 - 

40 - 

20 - 

10 - 



Fig. 2. Percentage of answers to the question! with what should 
the course content be composed? 

non-Indian graduate students (24) 
■non-Indian undergraduates (18) 
-Indian graduate & undergraduates (15) 

item "A" - current Indian problems (both urban & reservation), 

item "B" - awareness of dominant Anglo culture and necessary 

societal changes, 
item "C" - personal budgeting, checking accounts, taxes, 

small business management, 
item "D" - Indian history, culture 4 language. 

item "G" - training for dress and shelter. 

ioo# n 




EXHIBIT NO. 10 {Continued) 





Fig. 3. Percentage of answers to the question: what are some 
important items necessary for Indian survival in a non-Indian 
environment as well as aspects of life that should be obtained? 

non-Indian graduate students {2k) 
. non-Indian undergraduates (18) 
. Indian graduate & undergraduates (15) 

item "A" - obtain an education in the White world. 

item "B" - Indian language & culture. 

item "C" - self -concept, pride and sense of worth. 

item "D" - appreciation of Indian heritage & culture. 

item "E" - responsibility to his people. 

item "F" - knowledge of environment. 

item "G" - an adequate living, jobs and be self-supporting. 

item "H" - career education (vocational training). 

item "J" - religious beliefs. 

100# -j 

90 - 

80 - 

70 - 

60 - 

30 - 

20 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 


Fig. <K Percentage of answers to the question* who should 
teach the anticipated course? 

. non-Indian graduate students (240 

. non-Indian undergraduates (18) 

. Indian graduate & undergraduates (15) 

item "A" - a competent Indian. 

item "B" - anyone who is competent. 

item M C" - a team (at least one Indian & one Anglo). 


EXHIBIT NO. JO (Continued) 



The problem of determining curricular content for the Indian 
survival course was faced by Indian leaders at Arizona State 
University. The purpose of the study was to build a model course 
utilizing curriculum ideas gathered from three groups of university 
students. Three hypothese proposed that Indian students would 
differ significantly from non-Indian students in selections of 
course content, values within education, and leadership of the 
course. Returned questionnaires supported the first hypothesis- 
Indian students requested a greater percentage of cultural aware- 
ness and self-concept developmental content than the other two 
non-Indian groups. The second hypothesis was rejected-Indian 
students actually requested a "Whiteman's education" percentage- 
wise over the other two non-Indian groups. And thirdly, the Indian 
students made a great percentage of requests for Indian instruct- 
ion within the course than did the non-Indian segment. Tallies 
of requests, percentages of same, as well as a breakdown of 
variables and corresponding charts were used to illustrate com- 
parisons. The significance of differences were statistically 
and visually shown. 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 



As a result of the findings and on the basis of data collected 
from three divergent sources of the population that is vitally 
involved in the educational process, the following conclusions 
were drawn. A course of studies should be implemented at Arizona 
State University that is instructed by a highly competent Indian 
person for the definite purpose of providing orientation services 
to incoming Indian students. This adjustment mechanism would 
employ the use of a diversified number of community resources 
such as relevent speakers, authorities in economic, cultural and 
social fields, and field trips to vital points of interest and 
concern. Also important are group discussions of pressing isues 
in the realm of real problems, as well as the creation of devices 
cooperatively constructed to deal with these problems. 

Current Indian problems and issues would dominate the course 
content, as well as units designed to strengthen the concept 
of "Indianness", pride in the Indian people, and appreciation of 
the Indian heritage and culture. The promotion of the American 
system of education, with foreseen revisions, would be a necessity 
at this point. Career education would be an area that could 
evolve into employment counseling, academic program guidance, 
and eventually, a self -perpetuating process whereby successful 
students could provide future services. 


EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 


Subject to the limitations of the study, the findings appear 
to justify the following recommendations. 

1 . A continued series of studies and research should be 
implemented to define a workable orientation program and 
accomodating course of studies for American Indian students 
at Arizona State University. 

2. A revised study should be directly conducted, utilizing 

a greater number of Indian students, as well as professional 
educators and community resource people. The revised edition 
should include a list of items on the questionnaire, checked 
on a ranking basis according to individual importance. 
Validity of measure and objectivity in analysis would there- 
by be increased. 

3. The development, by the university, of an American 
Intercultural Studies Program for the purpose of exploring 
intercultural history and destiny in America and bridging 
gaps in the security of our nation. 

k. The eventual implementation of the "Indian survival in a 
non-Indian would" course. The direction should come from 
qaali f ie a Imdiam indifi duals f rem- tie uaiver eity n*mpu»It y 
who meets the standards set cooperatively by university 
officials and the Indian Student Association of Arizona 
State University. 


EXHIBIT XO. 10 (Continued) 



EXHIBIT NO. 10 (Continued) 



1. "The Angry American Indian", Time . Feb. 9. 1970, p. 19-20. 

2. Artichoker, John Jr., The Sioux Indian Goes To College", Vermillion, 

South Dakota, University of South Dakota, 1959. p. 30. 

3 Cahn, Edger S., "Our Brother's Keepen The Indian In White America?, 
World Publishing Co., New York, p. 43, 1970. 

4. Cuban, .Larry, "Ethnic Content and White Instruction", Phi Delta 

Kappan . Vol. 53. no. 5. Jan 1972, p. 271. 

5. "Ft. Lewis College i No More Tuition", Americans Before Columbus . 

Albuquerque, New Mexico, vol. Ill, no. 3. Nov. 4, 1971, p. 4. 

6. Green, Robert L. "Racism in American Education", Phi Delta Kappan . 

vol. 53. no. 5. Jan. 1972, p. 274. 

7. Henkel, Cathy, "Indian Deories LADIES HOME JOURNAL Teaching", Akwe- 

sasne Notes, vol. 3. no. 2, March 1971, p. 19. 

8. Kennedy, Edward T., "Let The Indians Run Indian Policy", Look . 

vol. 3^. no. 11, June 2, 1970. 

9. Ludeman, W.W., ■ The Indian Student in College", The Journal' Bf 

Educational Sociology , vol. 33. pp. 333-335. Mar. I960. 

10. McKinley, Francis, "Who Should Control Indian Education? Research 

Report, Far West Laboratory, Berkeley, Feb. 1970, p. 14. 

11. Mooney, Ross L., The Mooney Problem Checklist Manaal . The Psychological 

Corporation, New York, 1950, p. 5« 

12. Nix, Lonnie Elmer, "Promotion of Higher Education Within Arizona 

Indian Groups", Ed. D. Thesis, Arizona State University, 
June 1963. 

13. Quillen, J., James, "Problems and Prospects", Education and Culture . 

Holt, New York, 1963, p. 49. 

14. Quimby, Robert Joseph, "American Indian Students In irizona Collegesi 

A Discriminant Analysis of Select Variables That Contribute 

To Success and Failure", Ed. D. Thesis, Arizona State University, 

Feb. 1963. 

15* Richardson, Boyce, "Indians Move To Control Own Education", 
Montreal Star , Jan. 2, 1971, p. 17. 






S.B. 1021 


January 11, 1972 

HEFE HENCE TITLE: Indian Affairs Commission 
Pre-FUing Date: November 23. 1971 

Referred to 


Reported Out 



r**t to Governor 

A /-tin* 

Introduced by Majority of Committee on State, County and Municipal Affairs 





Be 1t enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona: 

Section 1. Section 41-541, Arizona Revised Statutes, Is amended 

to read: 

41-541. Commission of Indian affairs; members; officers; voting ; 
meetings; compensation 

A. The Arizona commission of Indian affairs shall consist of the 
governor, the superintendent of public instruction, the director of 
public health and the attorney general, who shall be ex officio members, 
and seven NINE members appointed by the governor, two at large who shall 
be non- Indian, and #4ve SEVEN from among the Indian tribes. Each tribe 
or tribal council may submit the names of not to exceed two members of 
Its tribe, and from the names so submitted, the governor shall appoint 
the five SEVEN Indian members. 

B. The term of office of each appointive memoer snail be three 
years. The terms of twe THREE appointive members shall expire on the first 
Monday in January each year. v-exeept-that-eR-the-t r ti»at-Men'Jay-4n-JaRtfai'y 
•#-each-4hird-year> T -thfl-tfiiniifi-e#-thi'ee-iMmbeFS-cha)T-eMpTr*e* Each member 



EXHIBIT NO. 11 {Continued) 

SB. 1021 

1. shall hold office until his successor 1s appointed and qualifies. Ap- 

2 polntment to fill a vacancy caused otherwise than by expiration of a term 

3 shall be for the unexpired portion thereof. 

4 C. Members of the commission serving by virtue of their office 

5 shall serve without compensation. Appointed members shall receive com- 

6 pensation as determined pursuant to section 38-611 for each day of atten- 

7 dance upon meetings. 

3 D. The commission shall elect a chairman and a vice chairman, who 

9 shall be appointive members, and adopt rules and regulations for 

10 the conduct of meetings. A record shall be kept of all proceedings and 

11 transactions. 

12 E. The commission shall meet at least twice each year at such times 

13 and places as 1t determines, and may hold meetings upon the call of the 

14 chairman. A majority of the appointed members of the commission shall 

15 constitute a quorum for the transaction of business, but ex officio mem- 

16 bers may vote. Members who fail to attend three consecutive meetings shall 

17 be deemed to have resigned but the commission may for good cause grant 

18 leaves of absence to its members. 




23 Sec. 2. Section 41-542, Arizona Revised Statutes, 1s amended to 

24 read: 

25 41-542. Powers and duties; studies and hearings; cooperation 

26 between federal, state and local agencies; reports 

27 A. The commission shall consider and study conditions among Indians 

28 residing within the state. The studies shall be made to accumulate, com- 

29 pile and assemble information on any phase of Indian affairs. For such 

30 purpose the conmission may hold hearings, make investigations, and confer 

31 with officials of local, state and federal agencies in order t o secure 

32 coop eration between the federal, state and local governments 1n the pro- 

33 motion of the welfare of the Indian people. 



EXHIBIT NO. 11 {Continued) 


B. The commission shall make a written annual report, giving an 
account of Its proceedings, transactions, findings and recommendations 
to the governor and the legislature, and shall from time to time submit 
such other reports as may be necessary. 


Sec. 3. Initial terms of additional members 

Of the two additional members of the Indian affairs commission au- 
thorized by this act, one shall be appointed to serve an Initial term 
expiring on the first Monday of January, 1973, and one shall be appointee 
to serve an Initial term expiring on the first Monday of January, 1974. 
Thereafter, all subsequent appointments shall be for a term of three 






n&nn ki 




EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

The Honorable Jack Williams 
Governor of Arizona 
State Capitol Building 
Phoenix, Arizona 85007 

Dear Governor Williams : 

In accordance with the provisions of Article 4, Title 
41-542 of the Arizona Revised Statutes, I am submitting the 
1971-1972 Annual Report for the Arizona Commission Of Indian 

The problems confronting Arizona Indians in attaining a 
place of social, economic and political equality with other 
citizens of this state and nation are complex and will take 
both time and patience to solve. The members of the Commis- 
sion recognize and accept the responsibility which has been 
entrusted to them to contribute to the solutions of these 
problems . 

We hope that the information contained In this report 
will prove to be encouraging and helpful as you evaluate the 
progress being made by the Commission in its program of co- 
operation with state and federal agencies, tribal councils, 
legislators and others in developing harmonious working re- 
lationships and trust. 

Sincerely yours, 


BILL ALCAIDA • Chairman 

August 8, 1972 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) {Continued) 

The Arizona Commission of Indian Affair* was established 
by Che Arizona Legislature in 1953 and !• operative under 
Arizona Revised Statutes Article 4, Titles 41-541 and 41- 
542. The primary purpose of the Commission has been to y 
study conditions among Indians residing within the State. 

The Commission serves as the official link between 
the unique tribal autonomies and the state government, its * 
legislature and elected officials* 

A very important area of our responsibility has been 
to improve communications, understanding and working re- 
lationships between all concerned and we have dellgently 
been working to this extent. 

Another of our goals, is to promote understanding and 
fellowship In the area of Indian affairs as well as cooperate 
and assist the tribes in developing self-determination. 

The tribal people have come along way in relatively a 
short time, however, an educational program la essential to 
educate the non-Indians to respect and learn from others- 
wEo— a£ft culturally unalike. With your assistance and our'e, 
this can and will be accomplished. 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) {Continued) 

Letter of Transmittal— - — — — — ——— — — ———— — — 1 

Foreword-------- - -------- —————— — — ————— — 2 

Table of Contents----- —— -------------------------------- 3 

Population and Acreage of Arizona Reservations 4 

Map 5 

Commission Membership--------------------------------- 6 

Advisory Committees and consultants— --------------------- 7-8 

Commission Meetings- 9 

Projects Completed- —--—--—--———— 10 - 11 

Published Materials Distributed 11 

Commission Highlights.- — 12 - 15 

Budget- 16 

Special Feature: Reservation Profile of Ak-Chln 17 - 19 

Appendix: Senate Bill 1021 - Commission's Enabling Legis.- 20 - 21 

Summary— ------———-•——————--— ---------------- 22 


EXHIBIT NO. 11 {A) (Continued) 









Camp Verde 

Yavapai -Apache 







Colorado River 

Mohave -Chema hue vl 



Port Apache 




Port McDowell 




Gila River 

PI nu -Maricopa 



























Salt River 

Pima -Maricopa 



San Carlos 




Yavapai -Pre sc ott 




NOTE: The figures were supplied through the courtesy of the Bureau 
of Indian Affairs and do not Include the thousands of off - 
reservation members of tribes. 

The Navajo population Is for Arizona only. 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

■ o ■ o a 






EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 



HAROLD SCHURZ (Vice -Chairman) —PIMA 


















1623 West Adams - Phoenix, Arizona 


NOTE: March 1972, Mrs. Leona Kakar (Ak-Chin) and Mr. Daniel Peaches 
(Navajo) were appointed at the term experations of Mr. Schurz and 
Mr. Theodore Smith. 


EXHIBIT XO. 11{A) {Continued) 



Mr. Francis Antone ------- -- — Ak-Chin 

Mr. Vincent Randall- — --—-————— -Camp Verde 

Mr, Robert San Barley — Cocopah 

Mr. Adrian Fisher — — — —Colorado River 

Mr. Fred Banashley — - — -Fort Apache 

Mr, Robert Doka --Fort McDowell 

Mr. Alexander Lewis Gila River 

Mr. Alfred Hanna — Havasupai 

Mr, Clarence Hamilton—-- — ------------------Hopi 

Mr. Benedict Beecher- Hualapai 

Mr. Bill Tom — — — — — — Kaibab-Paiute 

Mr, Peter MecDonald- — — Navajo 

Mr. Augustine Lopez---------------------------- — — —Papago 

Mr. Paul Smith Salt River 

Mr, Marvin Mull San Carlos 

Mr. Donald Mitchell Yavapai -Prescott 


Dr. Charles Griffith, Dept. of Anthropology, N.A.U., Flagstaff 
Dr. Emil Haury, Dept. of Anthropology, U. of A., Tucson 
Mr 8. D. Spencer Hatch, Resource Consultant, Tucson 


Mr. Robert Worden, Director, Arizona Economic & Development 
Mr. 0. 2. Whelan, Industrial Development Specialist, B.I .A. 


Mr. Charles Boyle, Administrator, Arizona State Employment Service 
Mr. James Gilbert, Area Employment Assistance Officer, B.I.A. 


Dr. Louis Kossuth, Commissioner, Arizona Health Department 

Dr. Charles McCammon, Indian Health Area Director, U.S. Public Health 


Mr. C. M. Wright, Attorney at Law, Tucson 


Mr. John Jett, Director, Arizona Mineral Resources Dept. 

Mr. LaFollette Butler, Realty Officer (Mineral Specialist), B.I.A. 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) {Continued) 


Col. James J. Hegarty, Director, Arizona Dept. of Public Safety 
Mr. William Wilson, Area Criminal Investigator, B.X.A. 


Mr. Justin Herman, Director, Arizona Highway Department 
Mr. George Over by, Area Road Engineer, B.I. A, 


Mr. John 0. Graham, Commissioner, Arizona State Welfare Department 
Mr. Byron Houseknecht, Area Social Worker (Navajo Area), B.I.A. 


Mr. Jemss Frederick, Coordinator of Indian Programs, N.A.U. 
Mr. Gordon Krutz, Coordinator of Indian Programs, U. of A. 
Mr. Ray Sorenson, Assistant Area Director (Education), B.I.A. 
Dr. Harry Sundwall , Director, Center for Indian Education, A.S.U. 
(Vacancy - State Dept. of Public Instruction) 


Mr. Herbert Surrett (Chairman) - Manager, United Press International 

Mr. Bill Stull (Secretary) - News Production Director, KTAR Radio-TV 

Mr. Duncan Jennings, President, Jennings & Thompson Advertising 

Mr. Edwin McDowell, Editorial Writer, Arizona Republic 

Dr. G. D. McGrath, Arizona State University 

Mr. Jim Murdock, Radio News Director, KOOL Radio & TV 


Miss Anne M. Plttman (Chairman) - Area Chairman, Womens' Physical 
Education, A.S.U. 

Prof. Leonard Roberts (Secretary) - Dept. of Health, Physical Educa- 
tion, A.S.U. 

Mr. Maurice Bateman, Supt . of Mesa Parks & Recreation, Mesa 

Mr. Richard Nayateqa, Hop! Reservation 

Mr. Martin Mahone, Hualapal Reservation 

Mr. Lee Stanley, Director, Glendale Parks & Recreation 

Mr. Graham Wright, State Leader, 4 - H Club Work, U. of A* 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

During this fiscal year, the Commission held a total of four 
meetings as follows: 


August 20 Commission Business Meeting. 

October 8 Commission Business Meeting. 


March 10 Special Business Meeting. 

June 23 Commission Business Meeting. 

Other Meetings Attended: 

The Executive Secretary (and In some instances, the Commission 
Chairman and/or Field Coordinator) attended tribal council meetings 
upon invitation from the chairmen; affording the individual council 
members an opportunity to ask questions and to have a better under- 
standing of their Commission of Indian Affairs. 

The office has been represented at various Indian-oriented 
meetings such as: Inter-Tribal Council, U.S. Public Health Service 
Advisory Board meetings, State Rural Development Committee meetings. 
Recreation workshops, Personnel Commission meetings, Indian Develop- 
ment District of Arizona meetings, Annual Health and Education con- 
ferences, Phoenix Chamber of Commerce Indian Committee meetings, Old 
Age conferences, Phoenix Indian Center, State Manpower Planning 
meetings and conferences along with numerous others. 

The Commission Is a member of the State Programming and Coordin- 
ating Committee for Federal Programs administered by the Department 
of Economic Planning & Development. All federally funded program 
applications must go through the clearinghouse prior to approval In 
an effort to maintain up-to-date funding figures and minimize dupli- 
cations, etc. 

- 9 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

Fiscal Year 1971 - 1972 

#1 Annual Report (1971-1972). 

#2 Tribal Directory 1972. 

Summary: The Directory Is but one of the Commission's ways 
to improve the Indian and non-Indian communication 
area. The Directory has become one of the most 
Important publications that the Commission compiles 
for distribution, as it Is the only one of its kind. 

#3 Senate Bill 1021 - Commission's Enabling Legislation 

Summary: The Commission's intent was to improve the working 
relationships and services to the Indian people and 
the general public. The bill was formally intro- 
duced by Senator O'Connor's committee. It passed 
the senate successfully and all committees in the 
house with the exception of rules - where it died. 

The Commission will continue trying until we are 

#4 Senate Bill 1068 - Economic Security Department 

Summary: The Commission would have been included along 
with seven other agencies In this department, 
however, at the last moment prior to final pas- 
sage, the Commission was deleted. This bill 
was a major state reorganization measure. 

#5 State Funds - Indian Services 1970-1971 

Summary: We were asked by the Bureau of Indian Affairs to 
obtain figures as to the amount of actual state 
funds spent during the 1970-1971 fiscal year for 
Indian services. These figures were compiled for 
the Bureau. 

#6 Federal Legislative Digest 

Summary: This publication is compiled on an annual basis for 
the legislators and Indian leaders to keep them 
abreast of federal legislation currently pending or 
acted upon affecting the Indian people of this state. 

#7 Surplus Properties 

Summary: With the Viet Nam war deescalatlon, there is a surplus 
of government property and equipment. The Commis- 
sion was contacted and asked to ascertain what the 
reservations could use in the way of equipment. This 
was accomplished and a report has been submitted to 
the Four Corners' Regional Commission. We are awaiting 
further direction, 

- 10 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

#8 Indian-Type Town Hall Meeting 

Summary: Following a planning session, a personal survey 
was conducted by Che office staff to ascertain 
whether or not the tribal leaders would like to 
have this type of a meeting whereby they would de- 
cide on the subject (s) to be discussed and those 
that shall be Invited to attend. 

The survey revealed that a meeting was desired and 
we are currently working very closely with the 
Arizona Inter-Tribal Council, B.I. A., Wayne Evans 
and the Governor's office towards this end. 

#9 Kalbab-Paiute N.T.C. Slots 

Summary: The Chairman of the Kaibab-Palute Tribe contacted 
the Executive Secretary and asked that we assist 
in seeking information relative to ten NYC slots 
being deleted. 

The Commission made numerous contacts with the 
Council of Governments whereby communications were 
opened and the slots restored. 



July 12 
August 6 
August 12 
September 8 
September 15 
September 20 
September 21 

October 20 
October 21 
December 1 


Current Commission Membership list. 

Federal Legislative Digest. 

Progress and Financial Reports. 

Letter to Ed Heler - Commission's Position Paper S.B. 1068. 

Commission's August 20, 1971 Business Meeting Minutes. 

Commission's 1970-1971 Annual Report. 

Rules & Regulations Committee Meeting Report relative to 

our Enabling Legislation. 

Commission's October 8, 1971 Business Meeting Minutes. 

State Fair notice relative to admission tickets. 

Indian-type Town Hall planning meeting materials. 

January 19 Indian-type Town Hall planning meeting report. 

March 1 Progress and Financial Reports. 

March 23 Commission's March 10, 1972 Business Meeting Minutes. 

March 28 Chart and material relative to S.B. 1068 Economic Security. 

March 31 News releases relative to 2nd Annual Arizona Indian Manpower 


April 5 Latest Tribal Leadership mailing list. 

April 17 The Cultural Dilemma of American Indians. 

- 11 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 


Senate Bill 1021 - Senator O'Connor's Committee, State, County and 
Municipal Affaire introduced the bill on January 11, 1972. 

The primary purpose of the legislation was to enable the Commission 
of Indian Affairs to operate more effectively by empowering it to apply 
for, accept and receive public and private gifts or grants of money or 
property upon such terms and conditions as may be imposed; initiate or 
assist programs on reservations and Increase the Indian membership from 
five to seven. 

The legislation passed the Senate as written and all House commit- 
tees with the exception of Rules, where it died. 

For many years the Commission's hands have been tied due to re- 
strictive legislation empowering the office to do liaison work, compile 
and assemble information, etc.; for the first time, it appeared as if 
the Commission could begin to embard on a more purposeful program in 
assisting the Indian citizens of this state, however, since the bill 
died In committee, we will again need to pursue this end until we are 
successful. (See Appendix #1 for S.B. 1021) 

Senate Bill 1068 - Senators Rottas, Corbett, Alexander, et al and 
Representatives Thelander, McCune, McConnell, et al introduced this bill 
January 12, 1972. 

The purpose of the legislation was to establish a Department of 
Economic Security to be administered by a Director, wherein seven 
state agencies were to be reorganized under this department. The state 
agencies were: State Department of Public Welfare, State Division of 
Vocational Rehabilitation, Veterans' Service Commission, State Office 
of Economic Opportunity, Apprenticeship Council, State Office of Man- 
power Planning and the Commission of Indian Affairs. 

The Commission's Chairman and staff attended numerous hearings 
wherein the position was that the legislation as drafted, was not in 
the best interest of the Indian people nor the Commission* 

At the last hour prior to adjournment of the legislature, the 
Commission of Indian Affairs was struck from the bill and a proposal 
drafted to put the Commission directly under the Governor, however, 
this measure died. 

The Commission has since been advised that this would be the 
procedure and within the next year or two we would be made a part 
of the Governor's office. 

Senate Bill 1068 did pass heavily amended (the Commission was 

- 12 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 


During the 1971 State Fair, the Commission cooperated very closely with 
the State Fair Director relative to the Indian section of the Fair. 

There had been dissatisfaction on the part of Indian people in 
1970 regarding the procedure of charging Indians on Indian Day without 
advance notice; possible ways to eleviate such a reoccurance was de- 
veloped and the Commission became actively involved. 

It was felt that it would be advantageous for the Commission to 
assume the responsibilities of administering the Indian section of 
the Fair, allowing direct Indian in-put. 

The Commission sold admission tickets to Indian people during the 
IS 71 State Fair. The office remained open on week-ends to enable the 
Indian people to obtain tickets. Tickets were also distributed to larger 
reservations for dissemination. 

Total Ticket results: There were 8,131 adult tickets sold and 2,963 
children tickets. Total money deposited with the Fair Commission for the 
tickets was $6,697. 

The Commission's Executive Secretary is working closely with the 
Inter -Tribal Council on Indian participation for the Fair. 

The theme for the 1972 State Fair will be Education. The tentative 
plans are to do away with the present Indian building set up and possibly 
divide it into equal spaces for the tribes to display exhibits, etc. de- 
picting their culture and tribe. 

The Commission is to work with the Fair Director and the new Indian 
Section Superintendent in responding to the tribal leaders wishes. 

The Indian Village will again be constructed depending on adequate 
funding . 

Indian involvement is essential to have aharmonious Indian Section 
and it has been expressed by the Governor and Fair Director that the 
Commission is the vehicle to encourage Indian participation. 


With the deescalation of the War in Viet Nam, the government has a sur- 
plus of properties such as pipes, heavy equipment, duplicating machines, 

After conferring with representatives of the governor's office and 
Four Corners' Regional Commission, our office undertook a project to 
ascertain what the various tribes could use in the way of surplus proper- 

All reservations were contacted and twelve responded indicating 
needs for specific items. 

- 13 - 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

The responses have been transmitted with a letter to the Four 
Corners' Regional Commission and we are now awaiting further Instruction** 


The Executive Secretary and Commission Chairman were invited to participate 
in the 1971 Town Hall held at Castle Hot Springs to discuss Indian Rela- 
tionships to the over-all state's structure. 

The recommendations of the 18th Town Hall were that the State Legis- 
lature provide legislation to make necessary changes to enable the Commis- 
sion of Indian Affairs to accept and administer funds, to enable it to 
contract for research projects, to furnish necessary funding. 

The purposes and recommendations of the Town Hall were then dlBcuaaad 
with the tribal leaders. A majority of the tribal leaders also felt that 
the Commission should have more powers to be effective. (The Commission 
then developed legislation enhancing our powers). 

The office took a personal survey to determine whether or not the 
tribes would like to have a similar type meeting whereby Indian people 
would direct the entire meeting as to subject(s), participants, etc. 
The answer was an overwhelming yes, therefore, we are working with the 
Arizona Inter-Tribal Council, Wayne Evans, B.I.A. and the Governor's 
office In bringing about such a meeting. 

It appears as if the first meeting will be held with the legislators 
in the area of interest to the tribes and the theme might be "Indian 
Leadership Through Indian Initiative." 

If this meeting is successful, the Commission may co-sponsor such a 
conference on an annual basis. 


In March 1972, we received confirmation from the governor's office that 
Mrs. Leona Kakar (Ak-Chln) and Mr. Daniel Peaches (Navajo) had been 
appointed to the Commission to fill the expired terms of Mr. Harold Schurz 
(Salt River) and Mr. Theodore Smith (Camp Verde.) 

Mr. William Smith (Tucson) was re-appointed for another term. 


The Executive Secretary represented the Commission at a two-day training 
workshop held in San Francisco and sponsored by the San Francisco 
Regional Council IX. 

The purpose of the workshop was to develop ways of producing effective 
visual presentations. 

- 14 - 


EXHIBIT SO. 11(A) (Continued) 

With Che Commission being authorized to purchase photographic equip- 
ment to develop a slide library on Indian affairs, this type of workshop 
proved to be very beneficial. 


The U. S. Department of Agriculture presented Mr. Pattea (Executive 
Secretary) along with other members of the Arizona Rural Development 
Committee a Certificate of Appreciation In recognition for the accomplish- 
ments of the committee. This committee Is aimed at assisting Individual 
citizens and local government officials by means of formal conferences, 
consultations and technical assistance. To facilitate communities In 
their efforts to Identify community goals and to pursue their goals. 

The Phoenix Chamber of Commerce also presented Mr. Pattea a Certifi- 
cate of Merit In appreciation for his services to the community as a member 
of the Chamber's Indian Affairs Committee. 

The Chamber appointed the members of the committee to assist them In 
the ability to effectively be a spokesmen for the business community. 


The Executive Secret iry has actively participated as a member of the 
State Programming and Coordinating Committee for federal programs. 

The objectives of the committee are to encourage and assist state 
and local governments in the coordination of programs and resources. 

The State Clearinghouse was established and is being administered 
by the State Department of Economic Planning & Development whereby appli- 
cations for funding must clear and be approved by the participating mem- 
bers of the committee. This is also to assist in determining the amount 
of monies coming into the state and the purposes of same. 


The Tribal Directory was printed and distributed, however, they were 
in such demand that the supply was exhausted prior to everyone on our 
mailing list receiving a copy. Approximately 1,040 were printed and 
due to budget limitations, another printing is impossible. 



EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 





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S S 8 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

HISTORY ; The Ak-Chin Indian Reservation with administration offices in 
Ak-Chin near Maricopa, Arizona, was established in 1912 for a small 
Papago group which originally migrated from the Papago Reservation in 
1874. The small band of Papagos from the now RaKa District of the Papago 
Indian Reservation had at first settled and built their village around 
Sacate Mountain which lies 10 miles north of the present Ak-Chin Indian 
Reservation. A historian 1/ has noted that the reason why the original 
band of about 120 Papago members decided to relocate was mainly for 
agricultural purposes. These Papagos found that the area called "Ak-Chin" 
meaning "mouth of the arroyo," was suitable for farming because of the 
availability of natural water sources from seasonal floods and because 
the drainage plains as a result of the wide flooding in the area was 
adaptable for cultivation and production of crops. At a later date some 
Plmas Joined the Papagos at Ak-Chin and this is the reason there are both 
Papagos and Plmas on the Ak-Chin Community (tribal) roll, however, it is 
dominant ly Papago. 

During the "Normal" flood periods In 1910 and 1911, the small Ak-Chin 
tribe was threatened with extinction because very little water from summer 
rains had been realized. Having recognized this near-diaster of the 
Ak-Chin people, the Federal government took action to prevent such occur- 
ences by setting aside the Ak-Chin area as an Indian reservation and as 
a part of U.S. trust lands. Immediately, thereafter, the government be- 
gan to assist the newly-enfranclsed tribe with their economic development. 
This development took form in the drilling of irrigation wells. To pro- 
vide water for 625 acreas of farm lands, three electrically-operated wells 
were drilled. Since then agriculture has been a mainstay of Ak-Chin 
reservation Indians, supplemented by livestock raising and federal pro- 
grams, along with jobs In the surrounding community. 

TRIBAL GOVERNMENT : The governing body of the community is the Ak-Chin 
Indian Community~Council consisting of a Chairman, Vice-Chairman and 
three council members who receive extensive powers from the membership of 
the community through the tribal election process. These general powers 
exercised by the Ak-Chin Community Council subject only to U.S. Statutes 
and Secretary of the Interior regulations. Some of these powers are: 
representing the community in official negotiations, appointing of sub- 
ordinates to the council, promotion and protection of health, peace, 
morals, education, and general welfare of the Community, administration 
of all community property, tribal budget approvals, selection of legal 
counsel, community land assignments, assessment of the membership for 
tribal projects and other purposes, control of community assets, main- 
taining an up-to-date community tribal roll, and so forth 2/. 

1/. Bertha Parkhurst, In a copy of Master's Thesis found at the Education 
Materials Center, Sacaton, Arizona. 

2/. Articles of Association of the Ak-Chin Indian Community Council was 
approved on December 20, 1961. 

- 17 - 


EXHIBIT XO. 11(A) (Continued) 

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT : From the original inhabitants of 120 Papagos, 
the Ak-Chin Reservation population for 1972 is now an estimated 317. 
Main family income is $2,700 which is reflected in the area of farm 
wages only. While 11,000 acres are now being irrigated, it is expected 
that future expansion for more land development will be curtailed due 
to the serious drop in the level of underground water sources. 

So far, in the past five years, only the rehabilitation and re- 
organization of Ak -Chin's farm lands have taken place. It is possible 
that in the next few years, a limited acreage of tribal lands will be 
developed and preserved for upland game birds. Other resources develop- 
ment must come from nearby industries. $742,000 E.D.A. grant for the 
Ak-Chin Reservation has been approved for an industrial site through 
I.D.D.A., South Central Planning area. 

GAME AND WILDLIFE ? The question, "Is hunting permissable on the Ak-Chin 
Reservation" is often asked by non-Indian hunters. The answer is "yes" 
for dove, quail, and rabbit hunting. The tribal government administrates, 
regulates and cooperates with both Arizona and U.S. Fish and Game Depart- 
ments in enforcing laws and preservation of wildlife. Permits are obtain- 
able and further information is available through the Ak-Chin Tribal 
Farms office. However, the possession of a state license is necessary 
before tribal permits can be Issued to non-Indians. 

LAW AND ORDER ; Generally, the responsibility for law enforcement and 
judicial power in local matters pertaining to violation of tribal codes 
within the reservation boundaries, is retained by the tribe's police and 
court systems. Other more serious matters affecting both Indian and 
non-Indian are referred to the Federal courts, while the Pinal County 
Sheriff's office by agreement with the tribal council, enforces all 
criminal cases other than felonies on the Ak-Chin Reservation. 4/ Pre- 
sently a juvenile detention center at Ak-Chin is under construction to 
supplement the tribe's law and order program. 

HEALTH : In matters of health, diabetes is considered to be a serious 
health problem by the tribe. Also noted as health problems of concern 
are: dental care, children's diseases, lack of health education, ex- 
cessive drinking, and health conditions arising out of accidents related 
to alcohol. Public Health Service records Indicate that the leading 
causes of morbidity has been diabetes and respiratory diseases. Medical 
care for Ak-Chin people Is available at the hospital In Sacaton and at 
the Phoenix Indian Medical Center In Phoenix. Regular visits to the 
Ak-Chin Community are made by a Public Health Nurse. Unlike many Isolated 
Indian communities, visits to hospital and dental clinics, and special 
emergency transportation is provided by the tribe on a 24-hour basis. 

EDUCATION s Approximately 76 children Including 17 high school students 
attend public schools in nearby Maricopa. Primary education for pre- 
school, kindergarten, first, and second grade youngsters is carried out 

1/. Extracted from a Phoenix Area B.I.A. report on the Ak-Chin Tribe, 
pp. 45 & 46, 

If . Law and Order Code, Ak-Chin Indian Community, 1970. 

- 18 - 


EXHIBIT XO. 11(A) (Continued) 

at the Ak-Chln Community Facility. It is reported by tribal officials 
that four students have enrolled at Federal boarding schools, while four 
Ak-Chln residents will be entering college this year. Additionally, 
adult basic education classes and extension courses have been initiated 
to provide the kinds of education courses requested by the tribe. Funds 
are also available for any enrolled member of Ak-Chln to attend college 
on a full-time basis. 

There is no question that the tribe will continue to develop, Increase, 
and strengthen its educational level relative to state requirements in the 
years ahead; as with many other tribes, this has been one of the tribe's 
primary goals . 

SOCIAL ACTIVITIES AND CULTURE ; On a community-wide basis, two of the 
biggest social and recreational events that take place annually at Ak-Chin 
are the October 4th St. Francis Church Feast Day and the tribal election 
held in conjunction with a large barbecue sponsored by the tribe on the 
2nd Saturday of January. Other gatherings of the tribe are also drawn 
together at nearby Indian reservations and cities for dances, festivals, 
sporting events, rodeos, barbecues, church socials and other recreational 
past times. 

As the authors of "OUR BROTHER'S KEEPER" have pointed out (p. 185) 
"The Indian accepts the inevitability of change for it is the one con- 
stant he has known." In this sense, it can hardly be concluded that the 
culture of the tribe Is "dying out", only changing, since much of the 
history and traditional ways of the Ak-Chln people is retained within the 
native songs and language, and still remembered by elders of the tribe. 
Hopefully, the cultural change will be a tribal effort for the better, 

HOUSING : Total houses on Reservation 38. Adequate houses 30 with 5 to 
be constructed by 1972. Community has own housing program. Houses built 
with profits from tribal farm. 

EMPLOYMENT ; Total labor force is 66 consisting of 42 males and 24 females. 
Total employed is 66 (42 male and 24 female). There are 52 permanently 
employed and 14 temporarily employed. Almost all employment is with the 
tribal farm. 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 


(Action: Died in House Rules) 

Senate Bill 1021 Introduced January 11, 1972 by Majority of Committee 
on State, County and Municipal Affairs. 



Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona: 

Section 1, Section 41-541, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended to read: 

41-541. Commission of Indian Affairs; members; officers; voting; meetings ; 
compensation . 

A. The Arizona Commission of Indian Affairs shall consist of the governor, 
the superintendent of public instruction, the director of public health 
and the attorney general, who shall be ex officio members and five SEVEN 
from among the Indian tribes. Each tribe or tribal council may submit the 
names of not to exceed two members of its tribe and from the names so 
submitted, the governor shall appoint the five SEVEN Indian members. 

B. The term of office of each appointive member shall be three years. 
The terms of ewe THREE appointive members shall expire on the first 
Monday in January each year.r-exeepfe-ehae-en-ehe-f*Pse-Menday-iit-Januavy 
ef-eaeh-fehivd-yearr-ehe-eerms-ef-ehree-members-shall-expirev Each member 
shall hold office until his successor is appointed and qualifies. Appoint- 
ment to fill a vacancy caused otherwise than by expiration of a term 
shall be for the unexpired portion thereof. 

C. Members of the commission serving by virtue of their office shall 
serve without compensation. Appointed members shall receive compensation 
as determined pursuant to section 48-611 for each day of attendance upon 

D. The commission shall elect a chairman and a vice-chairman, who shall 
be appointive members, and adopt rules and regulations for the conduct of 
meetings. A record shall be kept of all proceedings and transactions. 

E. The commission shall meet at least twice each year at such times 
and places as it determines, and may hold meetings upon the call of the 
chairman. A majority of the appointed members of the commission shall 
constitute a quorum for the transaction of business, but ex officio members 
may vote. Members who fall to attend three consecutive meetings shall 

be deemed to have resigned but the commission may for good cause grant 
leaves of absence to its members. 

- 20 


EXHIBIT XO. 11(A) (Continued) 


Section 2. Section 41-542, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended to read: 

41-542. Powers and duties; studies and hearings; cooperation between 
federal, state and local agencies; reports 

A. The commission shall consider and study conditions among Indians 
residing within the state. The studies shall be made to accumulate, 
compile and assemble information on any phase of Indian affairs. For 
such purpose the commission may hold hearings, make investigations, and 
confer with officials of local, state and federal agencies in order to 
secure cooperation between the federal, state and local governments in 
the promotion of the welfare of the Indian people. 

B. The commission shall make a written annual report, giving an account 
of its proceedings, transactions, findings, and recommendations to the 
governor and the legislature, and shall from time to time submit such 
other reports as may be necessary. 


Section 3. Initial terms of additional members 

Of the two additional members of the Indian affairs commission authorized 
by this act, one shall be appointed to serve an initial term expiring on 
the first Monday of January, 1973, and one shall be appointed to serve 
an initial term expiring on the first Monday of January, 1974. Thereafter, 
all subsequent appointments shall be for a term of three years. 

------- — means delete 

CAPS mean New 



EXHIBIT NO. 11(A) (Continued) 

In submitting this Annual Report, the Arizona Commission of Indian 
Affairs and the staff wishes to acknowledge the many individuals and 
elected officials in all levels of government for contributing their 
time to the progress and well-being of the Indian people of this State. 
Our special appreciation goes to the tribal leaders and council members 
of each of the reservations for their continued support. 

The Commission realizes the complex difficulties in achieving 
social and economic progress on Indian reservations. To obtain, im- 
prove and understand these facts concerning their conditions, it was 
necessary for the Commission staff to travel 35,238 miles on 141 reser- 
vation trips and 2,399 miles to bordering communities and attending 
Indian-oriented conferences. 

The Executive Secretary and in several instances the Field Coordinator 
and Commission Chairman, were invited to attend and participate in 
council meetings wherein beneficial understanding on both sides was 
achieved. This is part of an educational program to inform the tribal 
leadership of the assistance the Commission can be in various areas and 
in turn the reservation leaders are able to relay their desires and con- 

The Commission is grateful to the State Legislature for the backing 
and the financing of our office. VJe are hopeful that a statutory 
change In the near future of our enabling legislation will provide the 
necessary powers and authority to achieve beneficial goals, thus allowing 
us to move as rapidly as possible, keeping in mind that the Indian people 
should and must be involved in determining their own destiny, yet 
bearing in mind the needs and well-being of all citizens of this State. 

Respectfully submitted, 


Executive Secretary 






41-1401. Civil rights division; advisory board; terms; 
vacancies; organization; quorum; compensation 

A. There is created the civil rights division within the 
department of law which shall include the Arizona civil rights 
advisory board. The board shall be composed of seven members 
who shall be appointed by the governor with the advice and 
consent of the senate. Not more than four of the members shall 
at any one time be of the same political party. Each member 
shall serve for a term of three years. Of the members of the 
board first appointed two shall be appointed for terms ending 
January 31, 1966, two for terms ending January 31, 1967, and 
three for terms ending January 31, 1968. 

B. Appointment to fill a vacancy resulting other than from 
expiration of terms shall be for the unexpired term only. An 
appointee to an unexpired term shall be a member in good 
standing until the senate convenes and confirms or denies con- 
firmation of the appointment. If the appointment is confirmed 
the appointee shall serve the remainder of the unexpired term. 
An appointment to fill a vacancy shall be subject to the same 
limitation with respect to party affiliations as the original 

C. The board shall elect from its membership a chairman and 
vice chairman. The vice chairman shall act as chairman in the 
absence or disability of the chairman, or in the event of a 
vacancy in the office. 

D. Four members of the board shall constitute a quorum, 
except that if the chairman appoints a subcommittee of the 
board in majority of the members of the subcommittee shall con- 
stitute a quorum. The concurrence of four of the members when 
in session as a board shall be the act of the board. 


EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 

1 E. Each member shall receive compensation as determined 

2 pursuant to g 38-611 for each day in which he participates in 
^ .neetings, but not to exceed one thousand dollars in any fiscal 


F. For the purposes of this chapter, "board" means the 
Arizona civil rights advisory board and "division" means the 
civil rights division within the department of law. 


A. The division may: 

1. Employ an executive director for the board and other 
necessary personnel whose compensation shall be as determined 








-. pursuant to § 38-611. 

15 2. Subject to the provisions and restrictions of this 

16 chapter, cooperate with and enter into agreements with the 

17 United States equal employment opportunity commission, and 
carry out and perform the covenants and conditions of any 
written agreement. 

3. Waive jurisdiction in such cases where the division 
determines that compliance cannot be obtained under the pro- 
visions of this chapter. 
B. The division shall: 

1. After studying recommendations of the civil rights 
advisory board, adopt, promulgate, amend and rescind rules and 
regulations which are reasonable and necessary to carry out the 
provisions of this chapter. 

2. Administer the provisions of this chapter and direct 
the board or a subcommittee thereof consisting of two or more 



EXHIBIT XO. 11(B) (Continued) 

members, at least one of whom shall be of each major 
political party, to mediate and conciliate disputes with 
respect to discrimination when its jurisdiction is sought. 

3. Make periodic surveys of the existence and effect of 
discrimination because of race, color, religion, sex, national 
origin or ancestry in the enjoyment of civil rights by any 
•person within the state as prescribed by this chapter. 

4. Report from time to time, but not less than once a 
year in December, to the legislature and the governor, describing 
its activities and accomplishments during the year, and shall 
file with them a copy of all recommendations of the division 

-as to additional remedial action by legislative enactment or 

5. Foster, through community effort, in cooperation with 
'both public and private groups, the elimination of discrimination 
based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin or ancestry. 

6. Issue publications of results of studies, investiga- 
tions and research as in its judgement will tend to promote 
good will and the elimination of discrimination based on race, 
color, religion, sex, national origin or ancestry. 

7. Furnish persons subject to the provisions of this 
chapter such assistance as may be reasonably necessary to 
^further compliance with the provisions of this chapter. 



C cv* T€T^ TS/fcaGHT To counsel » 









EXHIBIT XO. ll\li) {Continued) 


B. The division may subpoena witnesses at hearings and compel 
their attendance, administer oaths, take the testimony of any 
person under oath and require the production for examination 

of books and papers relating to any matter before the division. 
Failure to obey a subpoena issued pursuant to this article shall 
constitute a contempt punishable upon application of the 
division by the superior caurt. 

C. Any person appearing before the division shall have the 
right to be represented by counsel. 


41-1421. Voting rights 

A citizen of the United States who is a resident of the state 
of Arizona and is qualified to become an elector as prescribed 
by the terms of $ 16-101, and who is otherwise qualified by 
law to vote at any election by or in the state, county, city, 
town, school district or any other political subdivision, shall 
be entitled and allowed to vote at all such elections without 
discrimination because of race, color, religion, sex, national 
origin or ancestry. 



EXHIBIT XO. 1KB) {Continued) 

41-1441. Definitions 
In this article, unless the context otherwise requires: 

1. "Person" means an individual, corporation, partner- 
ship, unincorporated association, or other organization, and 
includes the owner, lessee, operator, proprietor, manager, 
superintendent, agent, or employee of any place of public 

2. "Places of public accommodation" means all public 
places of entertainment, amusement or recreation, all public 
places where food or beverages are sold for consumption on 
the premises, all public places which are conducted for the 
lodging of transients or for the benefit, use or accommodation 
of those seeking health or recreation and all establishments 
which cater or offer its services, facilities or goods to or 
solicits patronage from the members of the general public. 
Any residential house, or residence in which less than five 
rooms are rented, or any private club, or any place which is 
in its nature distinctly private is not a place of public 
accommodat ion . 

41-1442. Discrimination in places of public accommodation; 

A. Discrimination in places of public accommodation against 
any person because of SEX, RELIGION, race, color, creed, 
national origin or ancestry is contrary to the policy of this 
state and shall be deemed unlawful. 

B. No person shall, directly or indirectly, refuse to, 
withhold from, or deny to any person, nor aid in or incite such 



EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 
* refusal to deny or withhold, accommodations, advantages, 

facilities or privileges thereof because of SEX, RELIGION, race, 
color, creed, national origin, or ancestry, nor shall dis- 
tinction be made with respect to any person based on SEX, 
RELIGION, race, color, creed, national origin, or ancestry in 
connection with the price or quality of any item, goods or 





g services offered by or at any place of public accommodation 

g C. Any person under the influence of alcohol or narcotics, 

10 or who is guilty of boisterous conduct, or who is of lewd or 

*** immoral character, or who is physically violent, or who 

violates any regulation of any place of public accommodation 

that applies to all persons regardless of race, color, creed 

national origin, or ancestry, may be excluded from any such 

place or public accommodation and nothing in this article 

shall be considered to limit the right to such exclusion. 











„ 1. "Employer" means a person who has Ewenfey FIFTEEN or 

2j, more employees for each working day in each of twenty or more 

24' calendar weeks in the current or preceding calendar year, and 

25* any agent of such a person, but such term does not include a 

bona fide private membership club (other than a labor organi 

zation) which is exempt from federal taxation under section 

501 (C) of title 26, United States Code. 1 The term shall 

include the state and any political subdivision thereof. 

41-1461. Definitions 
In this article, unless the context otherwise requires: 


. 2. "Employment agency" means and includes both public 

32 and private employment agencies and any person having-an-e££ tee 



EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 
regularly undertaking, with or without compensation, to procure 
©pperttmities-te-workj -or- to -procure 7 -recruit 7 -refer -or -plaee 

3. "Labor organization" means and includes any organi- 
zation or labor union, craft union, or such organization 
conducting a hiring hall which engages in the hiring of 
employees, or any voluntary unincorporated association 
designed to further the cause of the rights of union labor 
which is constituted for the purpose in whole or in part of 
collective bargaining or of dealing with employers concerning 
grievances, terms or conditions of employment, or apprentice- 
ships or applications for apprenticeships, or of other mutual 
aid or protection in connection with employment, including 
apprentice's jobs or application for apprenticeships. 

4. "Person" means and includes one or more individuals, 
associations or corporations, legal representatives; trustees, 
receivers, or other organized groups of persons. 




EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 




23 41-1462. Discriminatory Practices 

14 Unlawful discriminatory practices shall be: 

15 l. For an employer, because of the race, sex, religious 
creed, color, national origin or ancestry of any person, to 
refuse to hire or employ him or to bar or to discharge from 
employment such person, or to discriminate against such person 
in compensation or in terms, conditions or privileges of 

2. For a labor organization to EXCLUDE OR TO EXPEL FROM 




EXHIBIT NO. 1KB) (Continued) 


3. For any employer, or employment agency, or LABOR 
-ORGANIZATION to print or circulate , .or cause to be printed or 
circulated, any publication, or to use any form of application 
-for employment, or to make any inquiry in connection with 
■prospective employment, which expresses directly or indirectly, 
sany limitation, specification or discrimination, as to race, 

color, religion, sex, national origin, or ancestry, or expresses 
any intent to make any such limitation, specification or 
-discrimination, except that such a notice or advertisement 
may indicate a preference, limitation, specification, or 
jdiscrimination based on religion, sex, national origin or 
;ancestry when religion, sex, national origin or ancestry is 
<a bona fide occupational qualification for employment. 

4. For an employer, labor organization or employment 
agency to discharge, expel or otherwise discriminate against 
any person because he has opposed in a lawful manner any 
practices forbidden under this chapter, or because he has 
filed a complaint, testifies or assists in any proceeding 
under this article. 



EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 

1 5. For any person to aid, abet, incite, compel or 

2 coerce the doing of any of the acts forbidden under this 

3 article or to attempt to do so. 

6. For any person to cause or attempt to cause an 
employer to discriminate against an individual in violation 
of this article. 







16 41-1463. Exempt Employment Practices 

17 Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, it 
shall not be an unlawful employment practice: 

1. For an employer to hire and employ employees, for an 
employment agency to classify or refer for employment any 
individual, for a labor organization to classify its member- 
ship or to classify or refer for employment any individual, or 




24 for an employer, labor organization, or joint labor-management 

25 committee controlling apprenticeship or other training or 

26 retraining programs to admit or employ any individual in any 

27 such program, on the basis of his religion, sex, ancestry or 
national origin in those certain instances where religion, sex, 
ancestry or national origin is a bona fide occupational quali- 
fication reasonably necessary to the normal operation of that 
particular business or enterprise. 



EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 

1 2. For a school, college, university, or other educa- 

2 tional institution or institution of learning to hire and 
employ employees of a particular religion if such school, 
college, university, or other educational institution or 
institution of learning is, in whole or in substantial part, 
owned, supported, controlled, or managed by a particular 
religion or by a particular religious corporation, association, 

9 or society, or if the curriculum of such school, college, 

10 university, or other educational institution or institution 

11 of learning is directed toward the propagation of a particular 

12 • religion. 

3. For an employer to apply different standards of 
compensation, or different terms, conditions, or privileges 
of employment pursuant to a bona fide seniority or merit 
system, or a system which measures earnings by quantity or 
quality of production or to employees who work in different 
locations, provided that such differences are not the result 
of an intention to discriminate because of race, color, religion, 
sex, ancestry or national origin, nor shall it be an unlawful 
employment practice for an employer to give and to act upon 
the results of any ability test, provided that such test, its 
administration or action upon the results is not designed, 
intended or used to discriminate because of race, color, 
religion, sex, ancestry or national origin. 

4. To include any action or measure taken by an 
employer, labor organization, joint labor-management committee 
or employment agency with respect to an individual who is a 
member of the communist party of the United States or of any 























EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 

1 other organization required to register as a communist-action or 

2 communist -front organization by final order of the federal sub- 

3 versive activities control board pursuant to the federal 
* subversive activities control act of 1950. (1) 

5. For an employer to fail or refuse to hire and employ 
any individual for any position, for an employer to discharge 
any individual from any position or for an employment agency 
to fail or refuse to refer any individual for employment in 
any position, or for a labor organization to fail or refuse 
jj to refer any individual for employment in any position, if 

12 the occupancy of such position, or access to the premises in 

13 or upon which any part of the duties of such position is 
" I performed or is to be performed, is subject to any require- 
ment imposed in the interest of the national security of the 
United States under any security program in effect pursuant 
to or administered under any statute of the United States 
or any executive order of the president if such individual 
has not fulfilled or has ceased to fulfill that requirement. 



__ or joint labor -management committee subject to this chapter 

26 to grant preferential treatment to any individual or to any 

27 group because of the race, color, religion, sex, ancestry or 
national origin of such individual or group on account of an 
imbalance which may exist with respect to the total number or 
percentage of persons of any race, color, religion, sex, 
ancestry or national origin employed by an employer, referred 

41-1465. Interpretation Relating to Imbalance 
The provisions of this article shall not be interpreted to 
require any employer, employment agency, labor organization, 




































EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 
or classified for employment by any employment agency or labor 
organization, admitted to membership or classified by any 
labor organization, or admitted to, or employed in, any 
j apprenticeship or other training program, in comparison with 
the total number or percentage of persons of such race, color, 
religion, sex, ancestry or national origin in the state or any 
community, section, or other area, or in the available work 
force in the state or any community, section, or other area. 

41-1466. Exempted Employment 

This article shall not apply to AN EMPLOYER WITH RESPECT TO 
corporation, association, EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION or society 
with respect to the employment of individuals of a particular 
religion to perform work connected with the carrying on by such 
corporation, association, EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION or society 
of its reiigieas activities, ©r-to-an-edaeationai-institution 
wi th-respeet-6e -the -employment -te -per £©rm-w©rk-e©nnee ted -wi th 
the -eduea t ienal -ae t ivi 6 tes-ef-saeh- institution. 


41-1481. Complaint by person aggrieved; investigation; 

hearing; finding; order; REMEDIES; CIVIL PENALTY: 

A. Any person claiming to be aggrieved by an alleged dis- 
criminatory practice or act contrary to the provisions of this 
chapter OR THE DIVISION may, within sixty-days ONE HUNDRED AND 
EIGHTY DAYS from the date of the alleged practice or act, 
file with the civil rights division of the department of law 
a verified complaint in writing which shall state the name and 



EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 
1 address of the person alleged to have committed the practice 

* or act complained of, the particulars of the alleged discrimi- 


nation and such other information as may be required by the 

division. After a complaint is filed and found to be in 
proper order, the division shall make an investigation of the 
charge . 

B. If, upon investigation, the division determines that 
9 there is reasonable cause to believe that the charge is true, 

10 it shall endeavor to eliminate such alleged unlawful practice 

11 through means of conference, conciliation and persuasion. 
Nothing said or done during and as a part of such endeavors 
may be made public by the division without the written consent 
of the parties, or used as evidence in a subsequent proceeding. 
Any officer or employee of the civil rights advisory board or 
the division who shall make public any information in violation 
of this section may be dismissed for cause. 

19 C. If, upon investigation, the division finds that no 

20 unlawful discriminatory practice or act has occurred, the 

21 division shall notify the complaining party AND RESPONDENT in 
writing of this fact. and- the -complaining -party-may-within 
thirty -days -thereafter j-i i le -a -complaint -with -the -just see -e £ 
fe he -peaee -in- the -preeinet -where -the -alleged -discriminatory 
praetiee-er-aet- occurred? -as -prescribed -by- the -provisions -of 



2g D. If, the division is unable to eliminate the discriminatory 

29 practice through conference, conciliation or persuasion, it 

30 shall issue and cause to be served upon the person complained 
against a copy of the complaint filed with the division 




EXHIBIT XO. 11(B) (Continued) 
together with a notice of hearing before the board, or a 
subcommittee thereof. The complaint and notice shall be 
served on the party complained against at least five days 
before the date of the hearing. 

E. Upon completion of the hearing, the board shall make 
recommendations to the division. The division shall, within 
thirty days from the date the hearing is concluded, enter 

an order setting forth its findings of fact and serve a copy 
of such findings on all parties. If the division finds that 
an unlawful discriminatory practice or act has been committed, 
it shall serve upon the party found to have committed such 
practice or act an order directing the party to cease and 
.desist from such conduct OR PRACTICE; AND MAY FURTHER ORDER 




EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 

























EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 

* A. Upon -the-fil:rng -or-a-eomptairrt-against -a -person -who -has- 
previously -been -served -with -a -cease -and -desist- -order -the 
commission -shall -immediately -investigate -the -charge. 

B. if- -upon -rrrvestrgatrorr - -it -determines -that -there -is 
probable -cause -to -believe -that -a -discriminatory -practice -or 
act -has -occurred "it -shall -issue -and -cause -to -be -served -upon 

9 the -person -complained -agains t -a -copy -of -the -complaint -filed 

10 with -the -commission -together-with -a -notice -of -hearing -before 

11 the -commission r~ "The -notice -shall -specify -the -date j- time, 
and -place -of -the-hearing -and -in -no -event -shall -the -date 
specified -be -less -than -ten -nor -more -than -twenty -days -from -the 
date -of -issuance -thereof r - -The -complaint -and -notice -shall -be 
served -on- the -party-complained -against -at -least -five -days 
before -the -date -of -the -hearing . 

C. If 7 -upon -investigation 7 -the -commission -determines -that 

19 no-discriminatory-practice -or-act-has-oceurred^-it-shall 

20 immediately-not if y- the -complaining -party -who -shall -thereafter 
have -thirty-days -within -which -to- file -a -complaint -with-the 
just ice -of -the -peace -of -the -precinct -where -the -alleged 
discrimination -occur red 7 -as -prescribed -by -the -provisions -of 
section-22 -311 . 

D. The -commission -shall- within- fifteen-days -from- t he- date 
the-hearing- is -concluded -en ter-an-order- set ting- forth- its 








2g f indings -of- f act -and -serve-a-copy-of -such- findings -on- all -par ties. 

29 E. if-the-eommission-finds-that-an-unlawful -discriminatory 

30 praetiee-or-aet-has-oeeurredy-it-shall-direet-a-member-or-the 




EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 

1 peaee-ef-the-preeinet -where- the -diseriminatery-praetiee-er-aet 

2 is -alleged- to -have- eeeurred j -as -prescribed -by -t he -previsiens-©£ 

F. If-fehe-eemmissien-f inds-thafe-ne-Hnlawful-diseriminatery 
praetiee-er-aet-has -eeeurredj -the-eemplaining-party-may, 
within -thir fey-days -thereafter 7 -file -a -eomp taint -with -the -justiee 
ef -the -peaee-ef -the -preeinet -where- the- alleged -discriminatory 
9 prae t ie e- or -aet -eeeurred? -as -prescribed -by- the -previsions -of 

10 seefeien-22-311. 

11 G. If-the-eemmissi©n-fails-t»-enter-an-order-setfeing-for6h 
it s-f ind ing s -within - f if teen -days- from- the -date -of -the -hearing, 
the -eemplaining-party-may —within- thirty-days -thereafter 7 -file 
where -the -diseriminatory-praetiee-or-aet- is -alleged -to -have 
eeeurred ;■ - as -prescribed -by -the -provisions -of -see fe ion -22 -311. 







41-1482. RECORDS 




EXHIBIT NO. 11(B) (Continued) 


41-1483. Procedure 

No -eemp lain t 7 -under -the -previa ions -of -see tion -22 -311 -shall 
be -£iled-by -a -complaining -party-wit hots t-£ ir at -following -and 
eemplying -with -the -provisions -of -the -art iele. 




EXHIBIT NO. 11{B) (Continued) 




I • 


7 A. Any duly enacted ordinance or resolution of any city, 

8 town, county or other political subdivision not inconsistent 
with the provisions of this chapter is hereby approved, 
authorized and given concurrent jurisdiction with the pro- 
visions of this chapter. 

B. Nothing contained in this chapter shall permit the 



.. filing of a complaint for an alleged discriminatory practice 

15 or act if a complaint regarding the same discriminatory 

16 practice or act has previously been filed under the provisions 

17 of a duly enacted ordinance or resolution of any city, town, 
county or other political subdivision. 


41-1485. Violatienj-penalty 

Any-per son- found-guilty-of -a -violation -of- any-pr© vis ion- ©£ 
this -ehap t er- shall -be -punished -by- a- fine -not- to- exeeed- three 





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EXHIBIT XO. 12 {Continued) 







EXHIBIT XO. 12 (Continued) 


The author of this statement has a Bachelor of Arts 
Degree from the University Of Illinois and a Master's 
in Cultural Anthropology from the University of Arizona. 
He has worked with a Colombian development program in 
the Peace Corps. While a graduate" student at the 
University of Arizona he worked in the Bureau of 
Ethnic Research and was involved in a Gila River 
Indian Community Model Cities research study. The 
author also taught cstfrses on Contemproaray Southwestern 
Indians, North American Indians, and other courses 
in anthropology. Finally, from August 1972 through 
October of the same year the author was a Research 
Associate for the Southwest Indian Youth Center, Tucson. 

"If one is sincere, 
It furthers one to bring "even a small offering. 
No blame . " 

The I Ching 


Robert G. Smeaton 

From my own personal involvement over the last few 
years with Southwestern Indians this statement is an 
attempt to show two areas where Indians most clearly 
are not being given the right to participate in ins Illa- 
tions that affect Indian lives. As cases in point, I 
will look at the institution of off -reservation boarding 
schools and in particular the boarding school at Stev/art 
Nevada, and another institution that deals with Indian 
youth, namely the Southwest Indian Youth Center. 
The Off-Reservation Boarding; School 

In the year 1879 the first off -reservation boarding 
school was created at Carlisle Pa. in the hope of bringing 
Western education and "civilization" to the Indian youth 
of that time. Arizona with the highest Indian population 



EXHIBIT NO. 13 (Continued) 


of any state and about 1/5 of all the Indians in the 

U.S. was early to become involved in the boarding school 

movement. (Before Arizona was a state) 

The boarding school emphasis, which 
set in during the 1880*8, continued 
to dominate thinking about Indian 
education until the period shortly 
after the first World War. It was 
responsible for the creation not 
only of boarding schools on Indian 
reservations, but also of larger, 
more elaborately staffed and equipped 
schools in off -reservation- locations. 

Arizona's first off-reservation boarding 
school was the Training School at Tucson, 
built with federal funds »in 1888, for 
operation by the Home Mission Board of 
the Presbyterian Church. Two years later 
a school — both built and run by the Bureau, 
was established at Fort Mohave. In 18?1 * 
the largest of the state's off -reservation 
schools — the Phoeniz Indian School — held 
its first classes. (Officer, 1956) 

These schools, run by non-Indians, were noted for their 

philosophy of removing the Indian student from his home 

and community, strict military discipline, a work 

study program, and an emphasis upon industrial arts. 

Today, unfortunately, the off -reservation boarding 
schools are still with us. Some of the n strict military 
discipling" has been removed, but it is still there in 
part. The schools are still mostly run by non-Indians, 
(more on this point below) V/orst of all, the schools 
are "off -reservation? meaning that they are separated, 
often by a great distance or more than 1000 miles, from 
the communities where the Indian students come from, 
(more on this .point below) This great distance between 
the home community and the school effectively eliminate 
family supervision and community control over their 
own youth's education. Some effort is being made to 
reduce this, problem by naming Indian run school boards 
and committees, yet by the fact of the distance, the 
number of Indian commi'mities represent-'d at each 
off -reservation boarding school, and by the fact that 
most of the administrators and educators are non-Indian, 


EXHIBIT NO. 13 (Continued) 


would make this seem to only be a token effort. 
Stewart Indian School 

The Stewart Indian School is an off-reservation boarding 
school that has been in operation since the turn of tne 
century. The school is located in central Nevada near 
Reno and Carson City — not far from the California state 
line. Many of the buildings are made from red cut stones 
that were nauled by tne Indian students back in the 
1920' s from a nearby prison rock quarry. The Stewart 
Indian Scnool is one of tnree hign school off-reservation 
boarding schooJs that are now being sent Indian students 
from all over the greater Southwest. The otner two are 
located in Phoenix, Arizona and Riverside, Calif. These 
three off-reservation Indian high schools are administered 
and funded through the Phoenix Area Office of the 
Bureau of Indian Affairs, Education Branch. 

Recently when I was employed by the Southwest 
Indian Youth Center, I was given the assignment to travel 
to SiewarL Nevada and collect certain data from the 
comprehensive student files at that Indian School. The 
Research Branch of the Southwest Indian Youth Center, 
funded by a tnree year grant from the Crime and Delinquency 
Division of the National Institute of Mental Health was 
trying to gather comparative data from off -reservation 
boarding school in an attempt to understand Indian 
youth "benavior problems." Since Ray Sorenson, Director 
of Education in tne B.I. A. Phoenix Area Office, had 
given the ok on this data collection from tne student 
files no problems were encountered at the'Stewart Indian 
School,- Thus I had the opportunity to spend several 
weeks at the Steward Indian School — Aug. -Sept. 1972 — going 
through each male Indian students file, starting in the 
year 1964 and following through to the present. 

As an example of "administrative procedure" it snould 
be noted that during the last scnool year, 1971-1972, 
nine non-Indian Stewarx administrators baa "negotiated" 
witn the Indian Student Council and finally approved the 


EXHIBIT NO. 13 (Continued) 


"Students' Bill of Rignts ana Responsibilities." This 
agreement clearly states that information from student 
files would not be released without student written 
permission. Well this must be another example of a 
broken Indian contract since students were not asked 
if they minded the S.I.Y.C., a private organization, 
going through their files. It might be mentioned that 
at that time the B.I. A. was negotiating with the 
S.I.Y.C. for a contract. 

In any event, the time spent going through student 
files at Stewart was very informative on the workings 
of this off -reservation boarding school. The first 
thing that one learns from a student file is the 
method by which a student is referred to the boarding 
school. Some Indian communities have no'local high 
school or nearby public school. One such example 
would be the lack of a high school on the Hopi Reservation. 
In these cases the B.I. A. as a matter of course refers 
all the students that finish 8th grade to one of the 
three off -reservation boarding schools mentioned above. 
The other major category of referral is what the B.I. A. 
calls a "social referral." With the social referral 
often there is a community school, but the B.I. A. officials 
feel that the home environment is not "suitable" for the 
Indian student and thus he or she is sent to a distant 
off -reservation boarding school. Sometimes this is related 
to the Indian families economic situation, since it costs 
the family more to support a student in a _ local school 
than at- a B.I. A. off-reservation school. An example of 
the social referral system would be on the Papago 
reservation where there is a B.I. A. high school at 
Sells Arizona, yet a great number of Papago youth are 
sent to the Stewart Boarding School in central Nevada. 

The procedure for a "social referral" is for the 
B.I. A. Agency to send a social worker to evaluate 
Indian students home environment. The results of the 
social workers "research" are found in a two or three 


EXHIBIT NO. IS {Continued) 


page "social summary" found in the students file. At 

Stewart, for example, more than 60$ of the students 

are social referrals and thus have these "social sumarries." 

Unfortunately, most all the social workers at the 
reservation level are non-Indians. Thus because these 
social workers are not part of the Indian community and 
in general insensitive to the reality of Indian culture 
the statements in the social summary are very often 
paternalistic in nature and even racist in tone. For 
example, one reads statements such as "These people 
live like animals — " or "the father makes a living 
wage but has no desire to move out of the filth ridden 
shack that they occupy." (meaning that they live in a 
home of traditional Indian design) Again one often sees 
statements to the effect that the child, is being raised 
by a grandparent or other relative as if this were a 
crime. In fact, in some Indian communities it is very 
normal to have a grandparent raise a child for a time. 

V/ith all these examples the key point should not 
be lost, namely, that Indian communities are not being 
given the opportunity to decide on the future of 
their own youth. It is obviously a critical decision 
when a social v/orker decides to send an Indian youth 
to a distant boarding school, both from the individuals 
point of view and the loss to the family and community. 

One also learns from the student files and class 
rosters that a great number of Indian tribal groups 
are being affected by this system. At the same time 
one sees how far "off" is an off-reservation school, 
or that, is the great distance that students are being 
forced to travel. Edward H. Spicer in his book 
A Short History of the Indians of the United States , p. 116, 
gives the reason why the off-reservation boarding 
school system was developed: "It was conceived in 
terras of driving a wedge between children and parents 
and thus hastening the process of cultural assimilation." 
To show that this "wedge" is still working see Chart I. 


EXHIBIT NO. 13 (Continued) 


Chart I 

Composition of the student body, Pre-high school 
through High School, School Year 1971-1972, at Stewart 
Indian School, Stewart, Neveda. 




Apache, Arizona 



Pima, Arizona 



Papago, Arizona 



Paiute, Nevada 



Shoshone, Nevada and Utah 



Goshute, Utah 



Hualapai, Arizona 



Navajo, Arizona 



Hopi, Arizona 



Ute, Utah 



Washoe, Nevada 



Nomelaki, Calif. 



Pomo-Yuki, Calif. 



Noi-ma, Calif. 



Cocopah, Arizona 



Tule, Calif. 



V/arm Springs, Oregon 



Mission, Calif. 



Mohave, Arizona 



Pit River, Calif. 



Yakima Walla Walla, Oregon 



Klamath, Oregon 



Maricopa, Arizona 



Sho-Barinock, Idaho 



Quechen, Calif. 



Maidu-Miwok, Calif. 



Wapo, Calif. 



Yavapai, Arizona 



Havasupai, Arizona 







EXHIBIT XO. 13 (Continued) 

Fror. p4y brief stay at the Stewart Indian School one 
overriding theme sticks in my mind, namely that almost 
all the staff are non-Indian. (See Chart II below for 
the Indian non-Indian breakdown. ) In the survey 
for the year 1971-1972 no Indians held any of the 
top 12 administrative positions and only a few Indians 
held teaching positions. There were Indians in low 
level dormitory positions. At the start of the school 
year 1972-1973, when I was visiting Stewart, the 
situation was the same as the year before. Anything 
else positive that can be said about Stev/art is 
overshadowed by this one critical failure to have 
Indian staff at all admistrative and teaching levels. 
This means, for example, that the Indian, students 
will never have a role model or person "to emulate" in 
a high level administrative position. This means, for 
example, guidance in career selection will come 
from a son-Indian that may not even know the real 
needs of the student or the community from which 
he or she comes. This means, for example, that 
Indians again are not being given the opportunity 
to make decisions for themselves. Finally, this 
means that the same handout-paternalistic approach 
that has sometimes characterized B.I. A. dealings over 
the past one hundred years will continue into the 
future . 


The second institutional example of questionable 
treatment of Indian youth comes from my personal 
observations while I v/as employed as a Research 
Associate for the Southwest Indian Youth Center (S.I.Y.C.) 
from Aug. 1U72 through Oct. 31. 197*2.. Again I will have 
to be critical of this type of operation, but for 
some rather different reasons. 


EXHIBIT XO. 13 (Continued) 


Chart II 

Composition of the teaching and administrative 
staff with reference to Indian and non-Indian background 

for the school year 1971-1972, at the Stewart Indian 
School, Stewart, Nevada. (Note: only key staff positions 
included in the survey) 


Educational Program Director XX 

Principal XX 

Social Worker XX 

Activities Director XX 

Teacher Supervisor Pre-High XX 

Teacher Supervisor Secondary XX 

Teacher Supervisor Academic XX 

Girls Department Supervisor XX 

Boys Department Supervisor XX 

Education Specialist XX 

Supervisor Guidance JLX. 

Director Vocational Guidance XX 

TOTAL F&) 12 

Teachers and Instructors 

approximately 5, 55 

Many Dormitory employees were Indian 

(The reference for this survey v/as the Stewart Student 
Yearbook, Desert Braves , 1972) 


EXHIBIT NO. 13 (Continued) 

The S.I. Y. C. is a "behavior modification" experimental 
program that uses only male Indian youth for "subjects." 
The S.I.Y.C. is located in what had been a prison on 
Mt. Lemon, just outside of Tucson Arizona. The site was 
somewhat renovated and the experimental program began in 
the spring of 1970. Later a series of six "halfway houses" 
were added to the program in Tucson. 

The operation at the Center (S.I.Y.C.) is kept alive 
by a number of different contracts and grants. These 
include the Bureau of Indian Affairs (B.I.A.), the 
United States Bureau of Prisons, the Arizona State 
Department of Corrections, the Arizona State Department 
of Vocational Rehabilitation, the Utah State Department 
of Public Welfare, the Maricopa County ..Welfare Department, 
and the Pima County Welfare Department." Recently the 
Centers contract with the Manpower Development and 
Training Administration was revoked and thus, S.I.Y.C. 
was forced to eliminate the vocational training aspect 
of their program. In August, 1972, a three year grant 
was awarded to the Research Department of the Center by 
the National Institute of Mental Health. All the funds 
are administered through the Indian Development District 
of Arizona, a private non-profit organization that has 
an Indian Board of Directors. 

The founders of the "behavior modification" aspect of the 
program and current central staff are three non-Indian 
Ph.D.s that all received their Degrees from the University 
of Kansas, 1969, 1970, and 1971Their names, -major field, 
and position in the S.I.Y.C. as of Aug. 1972 were: David 
K. Giles, Ph.D., psychology, Executive Director ; Virgil 
W. Harris, Ph.D. .psychology, Research Sirector ;and Betty 
M. Hart, Ph.D. human development, Program Director . 
September, 1972, saw one change in that Philip Tsosie, 
a Navajo Indian was rotated to the Executive Director 
position and David K. Giles took the Assistant Director 
that had been held by Tsosie. Although this was done in 


EXHIBIT XO. 13 {Continued) 


an attempt to blunt the charges that non-Indians v/ere 
using Indians in their experiments, it should be clear 
that because of the nature of an experimental program 
the Ph.D.s must play the key roles. 

Specifically, S.I.Y.C. program on Mt. Lemon is 
an experiment to see if the methods of "behavior 
modification" as developed in psychology would affect 
a group of Southwest Indian youth that have had records 
of delinquent acts. At present there are about 70 male 
Indian youth — average age of 17 years old — in the 
experimental program. This program is not voluntary, 
instead the Indian youth are committed by court action. 
The length of stay in the Center is open-ended, with 
release only coming after the youth passes through 
four "levels" of "behavior modification." Thus a youth 
could spend 2 years or more in the prog'ram being bounced 
back and forth between "levels." (See Appendix A.) 

To demonstrate that this is in reality an "experiment" 
upon a minority group, let me give a few statements 
written by Virgil W. Harris, Research Director, in his 
grant application that was approved by the National 
Institute of Mental Health f August 1972: 

Recently a technology of treatment known as 
behavior modification has suggested that prosthetic 
environments can be created and maintained for individuals 
whose behavior deviates from the limits created by society. 
(Ullman and Krasner, 1963; Krasne 1 " and Ullmann, 1965; 
Baer, Wolf and Risley, 1968) p. 22 

... In view of the success of behavior modification 
programs with institutionalized populations, an incentive 
reinforcement system was adopted at the Southwest Indian 
Youth Center in order to determine if the" details of such 
a program could meet equal success with a unique population. 

... In a -number of ways, however, the program at the 
Youth Center can be viewed as novel to other existing 
programs. I*s unique subject population renders the 
effective adoption of procedures found effective in 
other programs somewhat speculative, -p. 24 

From the same grant application let me also demonstrate 

the paternalistic and very distorted view of reservation 

life and Indian culture as presented by Harris: 


EXHIBIT NO. 18 (Continued) 


"...Indian reservation communities at this time, 
are not able to cope with their own economic problems, 
much less the pronounced delinquency problem. 

There is a fundamental problem of community survival 
due to the lack of residents capable of functioning and 
contributing to the development of the community. 

...There are such pervasive problems as extreme 
poverty, hunger, lack of identity, and the feelings of 
hopelessness and helplessness which are the rule rather 
than the exception of reservation living. 

...In addition, there are youth who are lost in the 
limbo of reservation life — looking for an escape from their 
environment . "p . 24 

It appears that Lawrence; Kansas may not be the best 
place to learn about Southwest Indians. In a more serious 
vain, one should ask, What will happen to Indian communities 
if their youth are always sent to institutions, such as the 
Southwest Indian Youth Center? 

The problems of crime and juvenile, delinquency on 
the Indian reservation is a long and complex matter 
that can only be understood in its social and cultural 
setting. The delinquency problem of Indian youth often 
center on drinking and the use of other harmful drugs 
such as glue and the acts caused while using these 
drugs. This often is a serious problem in Indian 
communities and Indian leaders should be encouraged to 
search for culturally appropriate solutions. One way 
of not dealing with the problem at the community level 
is to send the youth to an experimental center such as 
the one on Mt. Lemon where they become data on graphs 
in psychology books. 

One final charge against the S.I.Y.C. is that when 
the "behavior modification" system fails the (junviLe 1 is 
being held as a matter of course in the Pima County 
Jail, sometimes for a week or more in an effort to 
force cooperation in the Center's program. As most 
know this adult Jail has a very bad* record of overcrowding 
and other problems v/ithin its walls. 


EXHIBIT NO. 13 (Continued) 


Assimilation Models 
Briefly, the assimilation model as developed from 
anthropological observations is concerned with the fate 
of a minority cultural group when in contact with a much 
larger or dominant cultural group. Given a long enough 
period of time, what often happens in these situations 
is that the smaller group in an effort to survive changes 
its norms, speech, dress, customs, etc. to that of the 
dominant group. When the assimilation process is complete 
the identity of the minority group is lost and the culture 
is extinct. 

It might be of interest to compare the assimilation 
models from the two examples of the Stewart Boarding 
School and the Southwest Indian Youth Center. As stated 
above in the quote by Spicer the off -reservation boarding 
school, such as Stewart, were explicitly developed with 
assimilation of Indian culture as the goal. Today, for 
example, at Stewart most of the male graduates are either 
sent to the Haskell Indian Junior College, Lav/rence, Kansas, 
or the student with B^I.A. approval enrolls in a Adult 
Vocational Training program. The complete list of 
instructional majors offered at the B.I. A. run Haskell 
Indian Junior College are: accounting, auto mechanics, 
business education, baking, cooking, carpentry, costume 
shop, dental assisting, data processing, electronics, 
electricity, food service, general education, home decoration, 
laboratory technician, letterpress, linotype, meat cutting, 
machine technology, masonry, offset camera, offset press, 
painting, practical nursing, refrigeration/sheet metal, 
radiation technology, technical drafting, and welding. 


Further, on the reservation community there^few jobs 
using any of the above skills, thus the Indian youth 
is forced to the city and the assimilation process 
continues. The same is true of the Adult Vocational 
Training programs, where a varfty of skills are taught 
such as vending machine repair, house painting, and auto 
painting. Again these skills are not in line with 


EXHIBIT NO. IS (Continued) 


real community needs at the reservation level. Thus, it 
should be evident that the B.I. A. using the off -reservation 
boarding school in conjunction with schools and programs 
such as the Haskell Indian Junior College is very much 
still in the"assimilation camp." 

The Southwest Indian Youth Center that takes young 
males form the reservation for "rehabilation" might ideally 
be a program that would rehabilitate Indian youth for 
valuable roles on the reservation, but again this program is 
clearly an assimilation attempt. The Centers six halfway 
houses are all in non-Indian, middle-class neighborhoods 
and the youth are sent to a middle-class, non-Indian, 
"East-side" high school. With the total separation 
from both the reservation Indian community and 
also even the Tucson Indian community, the only result 
that can be expected will be assimilation. Thus the 
Southwest Indian Youth Center is also an assimilation 
program, although this is not their stated goal. 

Hopefully this statement for the United States 
Civil Rights Commission will give Indian leaders 
ideas on how they might best protect their Rights. 


EXHIBIT NO. 13 (Continued) 

Appendix A. 

Behavior I-'odif ication 

The Southwest Indian Youth Center is a test of 
"b-havior modification" theory. Most college students 
that have enrolled in an elemeni^ry psychology course 
have had the opportunity to experiment v/ith labratory 
rats. Simple experiments are set up to observe changes 
in the rats behavior patterns as different types of 
reinforcement or reward and punishment systems are 
used. The time that it takes to condition a" rat to a 
certain pattern is measured and then the system of 
reinforcement can be changed to see how this will 
affect later observable patterns. The students are 
warned against the "dangers" of imputing human feelings 
on the rat, rather only observable acts should be measured 
and this data recorded. 

The Youth Center on Mt. Lemon is involved in the 
same type of experiment, only the systems of rewards and 
punishments are more complex and the subjects are 
Indians instead of rats. Briefly, the behavior modifi- 
cation program at the Center ia founded on the concept 
of "levels" At level IV the subjects are given the 
least amount of freedom and material rewards. There 
are three more levels with level I being release from 
the center. Reinforcement systems include points, money, 
free time, home leave, teacher approval, and time in the 
Pima County Jail (negative). Each level has different 
rules and these rules are changed from time to time 
to test different theories. For example, Oct. 1972 saw 
rc-moval of the "yes-no" system and the changing of 
point values. As an example, now 20 points are added 
at level IV for each "positive interaction with the 
teacher," meaning talking to the teacher without asking 
for something. Other independent behavior modification 
experiments have been run such as the Punctuality Study, 
the Lock-stept-Chain (learning test) Study, the Cross- 
word Puzzle Study, and a Leather Study. All the data is 
compiled and plotted on graph paper for psychology papers. 


My name is^Jon M. Greif . I am a 27 year old physician 
presently living in Prescott, Arizona. I was a U.S. Public 
Health Service general medical officer in the Indian Health 
Service from July 1, 1971, until my voluntary resignation which 
became effective July 7, 1972. The following are excerpts from 
a letter I wrote to my lawyer, my congresswoman Hon. Bella Ab- 
zug, and Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, one month prior to my separa- 
tion from the Indian Health Service, in which I discuss seve- 
ral of the circumstances leading to my resignation, circumstances 
which I believe will be of interest to this commission in the 
course of its investigation of the Indian Health Service. 

"....I believe that all physicians have a moral obligation 
to directly serve the public, more specifically, those citizens 
most in need of medical care and least able to obtain it, at 
least for a period of their careers. 

"Because serving as a physician for tha military would 
have been unconsciounable for me, I began, while still in medi- 
cal school, considering alternatives to military service. The 
only "military" service I felt that I could, in good faith to 
my beliefs, perform was as a physician for either American 
Indians or federal prisoners, both offered through the USPHS. 
And so, in December, 1969, I applied for a commission in the USPHS. 
It was not until Spring of 1971, as I was completing my intern- 
ship... that I received notice of my acceptance into the Indian 
Health Service.... 

"Now, let me tell you about my experience at £my duty station) 
Keams Canyon Indian Hospital.... 

"Keams Canyon £ Arizona3 Indian Hospital is 300 miles from 
Phoenix, the location of the Phoenix Indian Medical Center, the 
referral Hospital to which we were to refer our problem cases. 
The hospital at Keams Canyon is a hopelessly inadequate physi- 
cal plant (in spite of being one of the newest in the Indian 
Health Service). Originally planned to care for 5000 Hopi 
Indians and approximately an equal number of Navajos, the 
hospital population soon swelled to between' 25 and 30,000 \t\ie 
current number of active clinic chartsj . . . .Of the six physi- 
cians originally assigned to Keams Canyon [in July, 1971J , 
only two had any training beyond one year of internship (these 
2 had one additional year of residency) ... .We were expected to 
learn through experience, providing comprehensive health care 
to the people. My case was fairly representative in that I 
had never before ^without supervision^ set a fracture, delivered 
a baby, done even minor surgery. I learned all of these skills 
through experience, but at what cost to my patients. £l did 
obstetrical procedures, performed minor and major emergency 
surgery, and treated cases that I had often, at best, only seen 
before, occasionally never saw before ana naa only learned through 
reading!) . . ..Because of the shortage of pnysicians, or the enor- 
mity of the load (we saw 34,000 patients in the clinic last year), 



EXHIBIT XO. l-' t (Continued) 

3 .£ V 

we each worked 10B hours a week. 

" ranotherlproblem which I must mention is the referral 
situatron. As I said, the Phoenix Indian Medical Center was 
300 miles awaji. . . QThere was! a small air strip without lights, 
and we could not count on the weather or daylight to be adequate 
for air evacuation of our serious cases. The Gallup Indian 
Medical Center at 110 miles away ( in Gallup, New Mexica, a 
facility of a different divisional area) had become our chief 
referral hospital. We sent these serious cases by ambulance 
over a road that was long, dark, narrow and tortuous for a 
hazardous 2-j? hour ride. I say Gallup 'had become...' because 
this year, because of budget cuts in the Indian Health Service, 
Gallup would, on occasion, refuse a case, on the grounds that 
we, being of the Phoenix area, should spend Phoenix money for 
our referrals. As it was, because of t e distance and money 
involved we didn't refer many cases that we should have — 
cases that no general practitioner in his right mind would 
treat without consultation of specialists. The loser was the 

"When we raised these issues there were reprisals, not solu- 
tions, from Phoenix. I was not the most vociferous of the group 
in criticism of the Indian Health Service. A San Francisco 
physician who arrived at Keams Canyon a week before I did was 
ft.r and away the most vocal critic. He also had a personal ax 
to grind. He was a future surgeon, and he had joined the PHS 
with the promise that he v/ould be stationed with a surgical team. 
Keams Canyon is over a hundred miles from the nearest operating 
room. After 8 months of formal complaints about the deplorable 
state of affairs at Keams Canyon Hospital, something was finally 
done. Dr. S. was transferred to Shiprock, New Mexico. He was 
not replaced, and so each man's patient load went up 17$. Our 
station leave was cancelled by administrative order. Dr. W. 
took up the cause, and, last monthJMay, 1972^ he was recalled 
to Phoenix where he spent his last 2 months in the USPHS with 

no hospital duties or priviliges He was replaced with a 

foreign-trained physician who had absolutely no clinical ex- 
perience, and so our work load increased once again. 

"In April I made my decision to resign. I felt as if the 
Indian Health Service were a huge,boulder which was running 
down a hill with tremendous S nortia ^ and for 9 months, I had 
been trying to just slow it down (not even thinking about 
changing its course). Anyway, the frustration was more than I 
could or would take, and so I wrote Dr. McCammon (the Phoenix 
area director) a brief letter of resignation. I felt that be- 
cause there v/ould be no new physicians coming into the service 
until July, and already being shorthanded, I should stay t through 
July, and, I could also help orient the new physicians. I re- 


EXHIBIT NO. 14 (Continued) 

3 o£ 5 

ceived no other reply than my separation papers to fill out and 
return, and I was ordered to in no way communicate with the new 
physicians, and to plan to be out of Keams Canyon before they 
arrived. " 

Along with my discharge, officially honorable, I was de- 
nied all travel benefits and demoted one grade in rank. 

This letter was concerned solely with problems dealing 
directly with medical staffing at Keams Canyon Hospital, and 
not mentioned were the shortage of personnel and incompetence 
of staff at all other levels within the hospital, which is monu- 
mental » 

I received no reply from Senator Kennedy. Ms. Abzug for- 
warded my letter to the Chief of the Medical Service Branch of 
the Indian Health Service, Dr. Donald Swetter, with the follo- 
wing recommendation: "I believe it is imperative that you 
look closely at the charges that Lt. Greif has made and that 
you recommend an investigation of the Keams Canyon facility." 
To the best of my knowledge no such investigation was carried 
out. Furthermore, I don't consider Keams Canyon to be an 
aberration within an otherwise adequate system of health care 
delivery. Prom my discussions with other medical officers 
throughout the Indian Health Service, the situation at Keams 
Canyon is typical of that throughout the Indian Health Service. 

Since leaving the Indian Health Service I have had time to 
consider possible solutions to the problem of delivering to the 
Navajo and Hopi peaple the kind of high quality health care which 
is their inherent right as human beings and citizens of the 
world's most wealthy nation. 

1. Ultimately problems will exist until such time as 
Navajo and Hopi people are trained as physicians and assume the 
full responsibility for their own health needs, obviating the 
presence of a government health service composed of physicians 
who may be well-meaning, but remain insensitive to the needs and 
lifestyles of these people. 

2. For now, more and better trained physicians are needed 
in the outlying facilities, such as Keams Canyon. The current 
policy of sending raw recruits into the highest risk areas, 
while the more experienced physicians and all the specialists 
gravitate toward the big city medical centers is, in my mind, 

3. Because of the present physician shortage within the 
Indian Health Service, a physiciante full time is spent in trea- 
ting existing illness.. If more funds were allotted for the 
hiring of adequate personnel, efforts could be made in the areas 
of preventive medicine, and such diseases which are unheard of 

in other American population, such as diphtheria (we had 25 cases, 
4 fatal, in Keams Canyon alone last year) , could once and 
for all be eliminated. 



November 18, 1972 


I would like to thank you for this opportunity to speak before you 
this afternoon. I am the on-site Project Director of Project Apache, 
a contract maternal and infant care program which has been underway 
for a year and a half at Whiter iver. The need for such a program 
was based primarily on an infant mortality rate of about three times 
the national average at Whiteriver. I am also the former Service 
Unit Director at the Whiteriver Service Unit of the Indian Health 
Service. From my vantage point of observation and experience over 
the past two and a half years in Whiteriver, I would like to present 
testimony on the Indian Health Service. 

I am sure that you have heard many criticisms of the quality of care 
delivered to Indians in Indian Health facilities and I am sure that you 
have heard that the Indian Health Service is doing the best possible 
job that it can. I would like to state that I believe both points of 
view are probably valid. 

P.O. BOX 776 / WHITERIVER, ARIZONA 85941 / (602) 338-4554 


EXHIBIT NO. 15 (Continued) 

I think there is no question that the Indian Health Service is doing the 
best possible job it can within the limits of its manpower and financial 
resources. However, the manpower and financial resources available 
are extremely limited and the quality of care which can be provided 
is therefore also limited. I have observed directly the personnel at 
Whiteriver working very hard to provide the best standard of medical 
care they know how to provide, and I have observed these people being 
very frustrated for a long time by the knowledge that they are not able 
to provide the quality of care that they are capable of by virtue of their 

Repeatedly the Service Unit, and I know this is true of other service units, 
has requested more money, more equipment and more staff that are 
absolutely essential to good basic medical care. Positive responses have 
been received from the Area Office. Area Office personnel have stated 
that they were well aware of the needs, and agreed that these needs must 
be met. Repeatedly federal funding has been such that the new operating 
budgets for the Service Units d"o not allow for the necessary improvements 
in staff and equipment. 

As an example, last year I reviewed the patient load of our hospital, both 
inpatient and outpatient, and applied Air Force standards on hospital 
staffing to arrive at a figure on staffing requirements for the Whiteriver 


EXHIBIT NO. 15 (Continued) 

Hospital, The figure was 110 personnel in all facets of operation, 
administration, clinical and support. The staffing level of the hospital 
at that time was 68 people, obviously far short of what is considered 
standard in other branches of the government. Veterans Administration 
hospital standards and Hill Burton standards also call for similar figures, 
approximately 110 staff members to support the hospital which is being 
run by 68. Although this has been pointed out, not only last year but 
many times in the past, there has as yet been no significant response 
to increase the level of staffing. In fact, this year's budget is less than 
last year's. 

As another illustration of the severity of this problem of lack of resources 
and manpower, I used the fiscal year 1971 statistics of inpatient days, 
outpatient visits and newborn days, and based on a rate of $60. 00 per 
hospital day, $7. 00 per outpatient vi6it and $15. 00 per newborn day, 
arrived at a figure of $1, 072, 200 worth of medical care which could be 
said to have been delivered to the Indian population at Whiter iver. This 
does not include any kind of contract services, special procedures, trans- 
portation to Phoenix, specialist consultation, etc. In spite of this, in fiscal 
year 1972, the current fiscal year, the hospital operating budget is less 
than $800, 000. 


EXHIBIT NO. 15 {Continued) 

It has been said over and over by the Indian people that the physicians 
treating them in Public Health Service Hospitals are inexperienced and 
untrained and are there to "practice on the Indians". There is a certain 
validity to this charge as well. The physicians in most Indian Hospitals 
are just out of internship and work without supervision. We have through 
our Maternal and Child Health project added two highly trained pediatricians 
to the staff at the Whiteriver Hospital. These two new physicians have 
been able to demonstrate the need for specialty care at least in the area 
of pediatrics. But more important, we have been able to demonstrate the 
fact that disease rates among the Indian population are much higher than 
for most other populations in this country. The types of problems that 
are seen among the Indian people are more similar to those found in 
underdeveloped nations than to those found in the average American citizens. 
Yet because of insufficient funding and other administrative difficulties, the 
Indian Health Service has not been able to provide specialty input of suffi- 
cient quality and accessibility either to adequately care for patients or to 
provide on going training for on site Public Health Service physicians. 

A survey several years ago showed approximately a ten percent incidence 
of chronic ear disease among the Apache children. Our own figures, although 
incomplete as yet, show a higher incidence. Yet there are no consistent 
ear, nose and throat services available for the care of these patients. 


EXHIBIT NO. 15 (Continued) 


In the four months that our Pediatricians have been in Whiter iver, they 
have made suggestions regarding basic standards of care for children. 
Some of these are observational, others procedural. In the face of this 
simple change in pattern of health care delivery, it has become rapidly 
apparent that the nursing staff is unable to accommodate even to these 
minimally increased standards of medical care because of the extreme 
shortage of nursing personnel. Our project originally requested the 
Indian Health Service to provide the nursing personnel necessary to achieve 
these minimal identified standards of medical care but because of Indian 
Health's inability to do so, have provided as many of these as possible 

The hospital building at Whiteriver has been recognized as being in- 
adequate for quite some time. A new wing was added in I960 and at that 
time the federal plans called for an addition of a second wing by 196 5. 
Planning money was appropriated for this hospital in 1968, and a FECA 
study of the Whiteriver Hospital in 197 stated that the older wing of the 
hospital was functionally and physicially inadequate in almost every respect 
and needed to be replaced. In spite of this, the planning money which had 
been appropriated in 1968 was not released for use until Tribal pressure 
was brought to bear on the legislature in 1972. 


EXHIBIT NO. 15 (Continued) 

I would like to close by again stating that I am sympathetic with the 
Indians 1 criticism that the standard of health care at Whiter iver is not 
what it could be. The staff of the Whiter iver Indian Hospital continue to 
do an excellent job within the limits imposed upon them but the solution 
to this problem lies totally out of their hands. The solution to the problem 
requires national recognition that sufficient manpower and financial 
resources must be provided if the standard of medical care for Indians 
is to be improved. This increased funding and staffing must be provided 
within a system which does not impose arbitrary personnel ceilings 
and inflexible operating budgets. 

EXHIBITS NO. 16 and 17 

* On file at the Commission, 



Advisory Council on Intergovern- 
mental Relations (ACIR), 281- 
Adult education, 250 
Aged and handicapped, 86, 288 

employment in, 168 
irrigation project, 287 
Aid to Dependent Children (ADC), 

Alcohol problems, 17 

arrest, 26-29, 135-137, 143-148, 

disease, 136-137 
employment, 173 
programs for, 73-75, 89 
related offenses, 26-29 
All Indian Intertribal School Board, 

Allis-Chalmers, 241 
American Hospital Association, 73 
American Indian Forum, 46 
American Smelting and Refining Co., 

16, 178 
Amerind, 46 

Apache County, 119, 120 
Apache Tribe (see also White Moun- 
tain Apache Reservation) 
Johnson-O'Malley funds, 120- 
Arizona Civil Rights Commission, 

265-268, 270-271, 273 
Arizona Commission of Indian Af- 
fairs (ACIA), 266-267, 272-274, 
Arizona Department of Economic 
Planning and Development, 282 
Arizona Department of Education, 

Arizona Highway Department, 224, 
225, 233-236, 237-240 
Arizona Commission of Indian Af- 
fairs, 272-273 
equal employment opportunity, 226 

Indian employment in, 226-230, 

nondiscrimination policy, 231-232 
Arizona Indian Centers, Inc., 282, 
funding from Four Corners Re- 
gional Commission, 287-288 
Arizona Intertribal Health Board, 

"Arizona Plan," 239-240 
Arizona State Advisory Committee, 

12-13, 48, 112 
Arizona State Employment Service, 
employment practices, 273 
employment problems, 272 
occupational demand study, 286 
reservation residents, 213-214 
tribal employment, 167 
Arizona State Justice Planning 

Agency (ASJPA), 275-278 
Arizona State Personnel Commis- 
sion, 227, 228, 231 
Arizona State University (ASU), 
counseling, 127 
dropout rate, 126, 132 
employment, 129, 169 
faculty, 128, 131 
Indian internship project, 101 
Indian student society, 126-127 
recruitment, 128 
special programs, 131-132, 254 

Birth certificates, 40 
Birth rate, 72 
Blacks (see also NAACP), 28, 49, 

112-113, 116, 142, 180, 187 
Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) 
construction contracts, 70, 221- 

222, 257-262 
discrimination, 18-20, 21-23 
employment practices, 60, 62, 78, 
100, 122, 168-169, 173, 182, 188, 
244-245, 260-262, 273 



home improvement programs, 72 
Indian Development District of 

Arizona, 284 
labor unions, 213 
law enforcement, 59-61 
mining contracts, 206 
programs for Indian inmates, 153 
road construction, 229 
San Carlos Reservation, 211-213 
scholarships, 106, 128-129, 250-251 
Southwest Indian Center, 149-150 
special programs at Arizona State 

University, 132 
technical advice, 68-70 
tribal control of federally-funded 

programs, 254-256 
tribal policemen, 158 
White Mountain Apache Tribal 

Council, 207-208 
Buy Indian Act, 221-222, 257, 258 

Career Opportunities Program, 131 
Cattle industry, 67-68 
Celaya, Philip, 139-141, 142-143 
Center for Indian Education pro- 
gram, 131-132 
Chicanos (see also Mexican Ameri- 
cans), 28, 49, 112, 116 
Civil Rights Act, 134 
1957, 7 
1964, 262 
1968, 148 
Civil rights status, 2, 8, 9, 24, 57 
Colorado River Indian Tribes, 18-25 
employment, 18-20, 22-23 
law and order, 18 
legal counseling, 148 
Community Action Program (CAP), 

182, 188 
Community education leadership spe- 
cialists, 26 
Consent ordinance, 156-157 
Construction industry, 192 

Bureau of Indian Affairs con- 
tracts, 60, 62, 70 
contracts, 257-262 
Four Corners Regional Commis- 
sion projects, 283 
Indian companies, 221 -222 
Contract Administrative Techniques 

(CAT), 262 
Contracting Officer's Representative 

(COR), 261 
Contractors' Affirmative Action 
Guideline, 230 

Cultural problems (see also Lan- 
education, in, 93, 95, 103, 112-113, 

126, 210 
employment, in, 190, 217 
geographic areas, in, 108 
health services, 81-82 
nonreservation Indians, 29-30 
school programs, 247-248 
social services, 42 
suicide rate, 73-74 

Davis Mountain Airfield, 35 
Dental care, 80 
Discrimination, 7-8 

arrests, 28, 142, 163 

Arizona State University, 126-127 

Bureau of Indian Affairs, 22-23 

city government, 28, 35-36 

education, 38, 93, 95-103 

employment, 18-20, 21-23, 28, 38, 
70, 121-122, 184, 187, 273 

harassment, 162, 164-165 

health services, 31, 32, 41-43, 55- 

labor unions, 62, 185 

law and order, 28, 61 

social services, 42 
Doctors, 79, 86 

availability, 58-59 

cultural problems, 81-82 

jail inmates, 152 

reservation, on, 23, 24-25, 64 
Drugs, 21, 111 

Economic Development Administra- 
tion (EDA) 

Four Corners Regional Commis- 
sion (FCRC), 279, 280, 284 

unemployment on reservations, 273 

Education (see also Arizona State 

University; Johnson-O'Malley 

Funds; Phoenix Indian School; 


academic achievement, 13, 101-109, 

counseling, 102-106, 114-115, 125- 
127, 131 

cultural problems, 93, 95, 103, 112- 
114, 126 

curriculum, 115, 132 

dropout rates, 13, 38, 95, 104, 112- 
113, 126, 131, 132 

elementary programs, 91-100, 132, 


employment in, 93-97, 108, 170-171 
higher education, 124-135, 250-251 
Indian involvement in, 13, 20-21, 

119 255-256 
language, 93, 96-97, 210, 245-246, 

Phoenix Indian School, 101-120 
religion, 97, 103, 104 
textbooks, 95, 97 
Education Opportunity Grants 

(EOG), 99-100, 129 
Employment (see also Indian prefer- 
ence law; Labor unions) 
Bureau of Indian Affairs, 18-20, 

22-23, 60, 62, 70, 78, 168-169, 

173, 182, 188, 244-245, 273 
city and municipal government, 

28-29, 35-39 
construction industry, 60, 62, 70, 

221-222, 257-262 
cultural problems in, 190, 217 
discrimination, 18-20, 21-23, 28, 

38, 70, 121-122, 184, 187, 208- 

209, 273 
Federal agencies, 169 
Indian Health Service, 39, 77-78, 

89, 122 
industrial parks, 241-242 
manufacturing industry, 168 
mining industry, 173, 175-178, 193, 

198-202, 205-207, 211-212 
Phelps Dodge Corp., 193-196, 203- 

road construction, 224, 229, 233, 

234, 235 
Southwest Forest Industry, 68, 

Southwest Lumber Co., 68-69, 121, 

State agencies, 169-170, 226-230, 

training programs, 195-197, 199, 

tribal employment, 167-172 
Employment practices, 13, 22-23, 

31-32, 260-262, 273 
Equal Employment Opportunity 

Commission (EEOC), 182, 271 
employment discrimination, 273 
labor force survey, 171 
Equal employment opportunity 
contract compliance, 239-240 
highway department, 226, 229, 


FHWA Interim Construction Con- 
tract Compliance Procedures, 
Floyd Mull Construction Co., 221- 

Food stamps, 23, 38 
Fort Apache Reservation, 63-71 
education, 248 
employment, 67-70 
health services, 63-67 
Four Corners Regional Commission 
(FCRC), 279-289 


Gila County, 119 

Gila River Career Center, 286 

funding from Four Corners Re- 
gional Commission, 288 
Gila River Indian Community, 155 
funding from Four Corners Re- 
gional Commission, 288 
Gila River Reservation 

Civil Rights Commission, 270 
Four Corners Regional Commis- 
sion grants, 280 
law and order, 156-166 
road construction, 229 


Halfway houses, 134, 139, 141, 151- 

Havasupai Indian Reservation, 283 
Hecla Mining Co., 175-176, 178 

contract, 205-207 

Indian employment, 198-202 

training program, 199-202 
Hopi Community Action Program, 

Hopi Tribe, 45, 47, 48, 55, 109 
Hospitals, 84 

births in, 72 

contractual services, 75, 79-80, 90 

Globe, 57 

Indian employees, 31 

nonreservation Indians, 31, 32, 64- 
65, 67, 75-77 

in Phoenix, 84 

on reservation, 22, 24-25 

services for Indians, 55-56 

transportation, 39-40 

Tucson, 35-36, 41-45 

understaffing, 73, 79 

health service employees, 84, 98-99 

Phelps Dodge Corp., 202-203 

programs, 72 

on reservation, 241-242 


Hualopai Indian Reservation, 283 


Indian Affirmative Action Program, 

183, 195, 266, 270-271 
Indian Civil Rights Act, 134 
Indian Development District of Ari- 
zona (IDDA), 149, 280-281 
funding from Four Corners Re- 
gional Commission, 283-285, 287, 
Prisoner Parole Rehabilitation 
Program, 281 
Indian Education Subcommittee, 210, 

Indian Health Service (see also Hos- 
pitals; Phoenix Indian Medical 
Center), 26, 30-33, 71-90, 95 
contract facilities, 75, 79-80, 90 
control of, 48-51 
health programs, 83 
Indian employees in, 39, 77-78, 89, 

mental health programs, 73-75, 

near-reservation Indians, 54-57 
nonreservation Indians, 76 
preventive health program, 72-74, 

quality of service, 86-87 
reservation Indians, 18, 22-23, 46- 

49, 54, 57-67, 71, 75-76, 123 
staff problems, 82-83 
training programs, 50, 53-54, 78, 

urban Indians, 40, 46-49, 50-53, 
Indian income per capita, 2, 9 
Indian Law Program, 131 
Indian Leadership Program, 131-132 
Indian population in Arizona, 11, 
172, 218 
in Phoenix, 27 
in South Tucson, 34, 36-37 
in Tucson, 36-37 
Indian preference law, 33, 122, 176, 
185, 188-189, 198-199, 221, 224, 
Bureau of Indian Affairs employ- 
ment, 214, 243, 244-245, 257 
contracts, 258, 262 
highway department, 231 
Indian programs, control of, 9, 50 
advisory councils, 288-289 
Arizona Indian Centers, Inc., 286 
Bureau of Indian Affairs, 115-117, 
120, 255-256 

educational policies, 94-95 

Federal programs, 254-256, 288- 

health services, 48-51, 71, 86, 88- 
89, 123 

hospitals and health centers, 32- 

Indian police, 21 

poverty programs, 38-39 

schools, 13, 20-21 

tribal health commission, 59 

White Mountain School, 118-119 
Indian public relations program, 17 
Indian Special Emphasis Program, 

Indian tribes (see also Intertribal 
Council; Urban Indians) 

Arizona Commission of Indian Af- 
fairs, 272-282 

Arizona State Justice Planning 
Agency, 275-278 

court system, 166 

employment, 187-188, 190-191 

federally-funded programs, 254- 

Four Corners Regional Commis- 
sion, 279-281 

health services, 46-53, 83 

Indian Development District of 
Arizona, 280-281, 282-284 

land ownership, 282 

lease agreements, 241 

legal counseling, 148 

in Phoenix, 82 

policemen, 158 

school board, 14 

tax status, 283 

tribal officers, 158 

tribal sovereignty, 273-274 
Industrial parks, 185-186 

employment in, 241-242 
Infant mortality, 2, 9, 12, 72, 89-90 
Inspiration Consolidated Copper Co., 

Institute for Library Media, 131-132 
Intertribal Council, 14-18, 255-256, 

Job mobility, 3, 9, 19 
Johnson-O'Malley funds, 20, 56, 91- 
92, 115, 120-121 
in New Mexico, 96 
in Utah, 99 
Justice, administration of (see also 
Tribal court), 275-278 
arrests, 135-136, 142, 144-148, 


bail studies, 13 
bonding system, 165 
compound, 27-28, 136-137 
consent ordinance, 156-157 
counseling in jail, 146, 148, 152- 

court procedures, 28-30 
double standard, 13 
equipment, 163 
jails, 27-29, 136-137, 143, 152-153, 

161, 165 
jurisdictional maze, 160 
lawyers, 134-135 
legal aid, 35, 134 
legal problems, 134-137 
legal reference service, 134 
medical facilities, 152 
officers, 23, 142, 158 
representation by counsel, 143-146, 

on reservation, 18, 60-61, 122-123, 

153, 156-167 
State of Arizona, 164 
youth offenders, 151-153, 149-150, 


Kaibab-Paiute Indian Tribe, 288 

Labor force, reservations, 167, 171, 

Labor unions, 184-185 
construction, 62, 70 
industrial parks, 241 
highway construction, 273 
San Carlos Apache Indian Reser- 
vation, 212-213, 221 
Land ownership, 282-283 

bilingual Indians, 208 
education, 93, 96-97, 210, 245-246 
language-oriented learning mate- 
rials, 248 
law and order problems, 30, 145- 
Law Enforcement Assistance Ad- 
ministration (LEAA) 
grants, 161-162, 163, 166, 275-278 
LEAP, 28 
Lease agreements 

Bureau of Indian Affairs assist- 
ance, 68, 176, 241 
Lease income, 23 
Legal Aid Society, 134 
Libraries, 254 
bookmobile on Navajo Reservation, 

Life expectancy rate, 2, 9, 12, 72, 73 
Loesch, Harrison, 92 
Lumber industry, 67-70, 209 

Manufacturing industry, 168 
Maricopa Indian Reservation, 280 
Medicare and medicaid, 90 
Mexican Americans (see also Chi- 

canos),36, 38, 142, 187 
Mining industry, 16 

Indian employment, 173, 175-178, 
198-203, 205-207, 211-212 
Minority Group Employment in Ari- 
zona State Agencies (1972), 271 
Mobile health unit (Tucson), 43 
Model Cities program, 35, 37, 43-44 

NAACP, 41, 141 
National Housing Industries, Inc., 

National Indian Justice Planning 

Project, 277-278 
National Indian Police Academy, 134 
National Indian Training and Re- 
search Center, 26, 91 
Native American Rights Fund, 91 
National Park Service, 249 
Navajo Community College Man- 
power Program, 271 
Navajo Indian Reservation 

Arizona State Justice Planning 

Agency, 275 
compliance review, 188 
dropout rate, 95 
education, 91-100, 108, 119 
employment, 167-168, 227 
Four Corners Regional Commis- 
sion, 285-288 
health services, 55 
housing, health employees, 98 
labor force, 182 
labor unions, 185 
language problems, 146 
library bookmobile, 285 
tribalism, 48-49 
Navajo Farm Training and Crop 

Production, 287 
Navajo generating plant, 287 
Navajo Rehabilitation Center, 286 
Neighborhood Youth Corps trainees, 

Nonreservation Indians (see also 
Urban Indians) , 34-35 
boarding schools, 111-117 
civil rights status, 2, 8 
cultural problems, 29-30 


different problems from reserva- 
tion Indians, 15 
dropout rate, 126 
health services, 46-53, 75-76 
near-reservation health services, 

scholarship grants, 106-107 
student problems, 126 
Nurses, 78, 85, 89 


Office of Federal Contract Compli- 
ance (OFCC), 179-192 
Civil Rights Commission, 271 
compliance reviews, 188-190, 237- 

238, 240 
highway department, 226, 230, 

"qualified" Indians, 187 
"show cause" notices, 190-191 
training programs, 181 
Office of Economic Opportunity 
(OEO) (see also Community 
Action Program), 132 
Phoenix Indian Center, 29, 37, 38- 
Oklahoma Indians, 26, 125 
Omaha Tribe, 132 

Papago Cultural Research and Half- 
way House, 134, 139, 141 
Papago Indian Reservation, 140, 147, 

education, 177-178, 248 

employment, 39, 193-197 

grants, 280 

job developer, 196 

mining industry, 16, 198-203, 205- 

road construction, 173, 224, 229 
Paris, Moses, 90 
Paternalism, 16-17 
Pharmacists, 85 
Phoenix College, 124-125 

dropout rate, 131 

orientation program, 130-131 
Phelps Dodge Corp. 

housing, 202-203 

Indian employment, 193-196, 203- 
Phoenix Indian Medical Center, 26, 
76-77, 80-90 

cultural problems, 29 

employment, 28 

Indian desk, 33 

training programs, 78, 85 

Phoenix Indian School, 13-14, 101, 

counselors, 105, 106, 107, 114-115 

curriculum, 115 

discipline, 109 

dropout rates, 112 

Indian control, 120 

mental health services, 110 

staff, 104, 105, 112 

students, description of, 111-112 

student problems, 103-104, 105, 
Phoenix Urban Indian Project, 26, 27 
Pima County, 139-141 


Religion, 97, 103, 104 
Reservation Indians 

Arizona Civil Rights Commission, 
265-268, 270-271, 273 

Arizona Commission of Indian Af- 
fairs, 266-267, 272-274, 282 

Arizona State Employment Serv- 
ice, 213-214 

construction, 60, 62, 70, 192, 221- 
222, 258-259 

economic growth, 280-289 

education (see also Education), 
20-21, 91-100, 209-210, 245-250 

employment, 18-20, 21-22, 193- 
209, 272-274 

health services (see also Indian 
Health Service), 18, 22-23, 46- 
49, 54, 75-76 

housing, 72, 84, 98-99, 202-203, 

Indian Special Emphasis Program, 

industrial parks, 185-186, 241-242 

land ownership, 282-283 

law and order, 18, 60-61, 122-123, 
153, 156-167 

medical training programs, 54 

mining industry, 198-203, 205-207 

schools, 94-95, 102, 104, 106-107, 
108, 111, 125-126, 209-210 

social services, 42 

special problems, 15 

taxes (see Taxes) 

traders on reservation, 124 
Road construction on reservations, 
60, 62, 256, 229, 236, 273 

Salt River Indian Reservation, 
224, 229 

San Carlos Apache Indian Reser- 
vation, 220-221 

Navajo Indian Reservation, 224, 
233, 234, 235 


Salt River Indian Reservation 
education, 248 
grants, 280 
legal counseling, 148 
road construction, 224, 229